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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/propfest\">Prop Fest\u003c/a> is a collaboration from Bay Curious and The Bay podcasts, where we break down each of the 10 statewide propositions that will be on your November 2024 ballot. Check out \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/voterguide\">KQED’s Voter Guide\u003c/a> for more information on state and local races.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, arts and culture columnist Pendarvis Harshaw joins us to break down Prop. 6, an amendment to the California Constitution that would ban forced labor in prisons.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This episode has been updated to clarify the status of California’s volunteer firefighter program.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1694673417&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a transcript of the episode.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:02] Let’s take it back to history class real quick. In 1865, the U.S. ratified the 13th Amendment to the Constitution, otherwise known as the Prohibition Clause.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:17] This is the clause that we were all taught banned slavery and involuntary servitude in the United States once and for all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:25] Which it did, except not completely. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:32] And I’m Olivia Allen-Price. And you’re listening to Prop Fest, a collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious where we help you get smart on all the statewide propositions on your ballot this year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:45] The Constitution says slavery and involuntary servitude are prohibited except as punishment for convicted crimes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:54] That exception has allowed dozens of states, including California, to force incarcerated people to work in prisons whether they want to or not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:04] Proposition 6 hopes to close that loophole once and for all and begin limiting forced labor in California state prisons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:01:14] Today, we’re going to break down Proposition 6 for you right after this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:22] Today we’re talking about Proposition 6. Here’s how it will read on your ballot. Prop 6 amends the California Constitution to remove current provision that allows jails and prisons to impose involuntary servitude to punish crime, i.e., forcing incarcerated persons to work. Today, we talk with KQED arts and culture columnist Pendarvis Harshaw to help us break down what Prop 6 is all about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:51] Your story on prison labor mentions a poultry processing enterprise at a state prison near the Central Valley. I mean, there’s really it seems like a really wide range of jobs that California inmates are doing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pendarvis Harshaw \u003c/strong>[00:02:24] It’s the notion of what you can see, you know about, what you don’t see. You have no idea. People who are residents of different institutions around the state work on everything from furniture that appears in college dorm rooms to license plates and and things of that nature, even working internally and doing maintenance. Somebody told me about working on the big industrial dryers inside of a women’s facility. There are a lot of education or jobs or even counseling jobs that people who are incarcerated do as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:59] And some of this is, I mean, really dangerous work, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pendarvis Harshaw \u003c/strong>[00:03:04] Yeah. There’s the maintenance work that that can be done inside of prisons. Definitely dangerous. And not all jobs are blue collar or a front line. There are a lot of education or jobs or even counseling jobs that people who are incarcerated do as well. Folks have shared with me that some of them make $0.11 an hour or $0.14 an hour. And a lot of that goes not even directly into their pocket, can go into anything from health care to restitution. There are people who work for ducats or tokens, which essentially goes to time earned against their sentence. So they might get out sooner because of their labor. In southern states you’ve seen there are examples of people who work in chain gangs. And so the parallels between that and slavery are like clear present.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:55] Because there are also consequences for some folks inside of prisons. If you don’t want to work right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pendarvis Harshaw \u003c/strong>[00:04:02] If you get assigned a job and you do not work, then yes, you can be penalized.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:06] So enter then Prop 6 Pen, which would amend California’s constitution and prohibit the state from punishing inmates with involuntary work assignments. Can you talk a little bit more about the changes that Prop 6 would make exactly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pendarvis Harshaw \u003c/strong>[00:04:27] Prop six would essentially ban involuntary servitude in California prisons. California’s just the latest to try to close this loophole in the past two years. Alabama, Oregon, Tennessee and Vermont have all passed legislation in order to change this. This is a byproduct of years of work from different organizations and legislators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Asm. Lori Wilson \u003c/strong>[00:04:48] California is among only 16 states with an exception clause for involuntary servitude.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pendarvis Harshaw \u003c/strong>[00:04:55] This particular year, Legislative Black Caucus. Lori Wilson did a lot of work to get this off the ground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Asm. Lori Wilson \u003c/strong>[00:05:01] Slavery takes on the modern form of involuntary servitude, including forced labor in prisons. Slavery is wrong, and all forms in California should be clear and denouncing that in our Constitution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pendarvis Harshaw \u003c/strong>[00:05:16] There’s been a lot of support by the organization that I talked to, all of us or None, which is a community group that’s based in Oakland, California. Their work is to help formerly incarcerated folks return to society, as well as to get behind initiatives like this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lawrence Cox \u003c/strong>[00:05:33] We want to give people the choice of whether or not they choose to work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pendarvis Harshaw \u003c/strong>[00:05:38] Lawrence Cox is one of three people that I talk to who work for All of Us Or None. They filled me in on some background.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lawrence Cox \u003c/strong>[00:05:44] For us here in California. This is the fourth consecutive year that we’ve attempted to make that reach the ballot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pendarvis Harshaw \u003c/strong>[00:05:51] Saying it’s about humanity, it’s about labor rights. And then beyond that, it’s about this capitalist system. And Lawrence Cox talked about this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lawrence Cox \u003c/strong>[00:06:00] We’re not only trying to change the Constitution because we’re not talking about symbolism. We’re focused on creating airtight solutions that prevent the exploitation of individuals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:12] Who else do we know is for Prop six?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pendarvis Harshaw \u003c/strong>[00:06:17] Other organizations that are in favor of Prop six are orgs that do the work for people who are incarcerated, families who are incarcerated and people who are reentering society. So the anti recidivism coalition, ACLU of Northern California, organizations that are on the frontlines working with these folks who have been impacted by the system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:37] And do we know what like the money is looking like in terms of support for Prop six? Who’s throwing coin basically into the Yes on Prop six campaign?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pendarvis Harshaw \u003c/strong>[00:06:49] It’s it’s a tilted scale. Nearly $500,000 worth of support behind Prop six. And there have been $0 spent on the no side.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:07:03] There’s no official opposition to Prop six, but the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association has said it opposes it. There have also been a few newspaper editorial boards that call on voters to reject Prop six. The Bay Area News Group argued in a recent op ed that says, quote, Requiring inmates to sweep floors, clean the bathrooms or cook in the kitchen is reasonable. If we expect the same of ourselves and our children, if we insist members of the military conduct those chores, certainly we can ask incarcerated, convicted criminals to do the same, unquote. This also isn’t the first time advocates have tried to pass a similar idea. Back in 2020, the End Slavery in California Act was first introduced. But after two years in the legislature, it failed because lawmakers were worried about how much it would cost. That’s why this time, Prop six allows inmates to volunteer for work assignments without pay, but only if they want to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:08:18] Well, I know you visited San Quentin earlier this year, and I’m curious where you heard from people. Did any of this sort of conversation that we’re having now come up in your visit there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pendarvis Harshaw \u003c/strong>[00:08:31] It came up naturally. I was in San Quentin in early August, tagging along with a group of journalists, doing a more or less a media day just to get a sense of the media that was being produced out of San Quentin. And of course, if you’re producing media, you’re working and you should be compensated for your work. And so naturally, the conversation would come up like, how much do you make? It was mind blowing because it was said like it was just common or even laughed at like here, you know, just making a little $0.14 here and there, almost saying it in jest or saying it and moving on to the next topic. People have told me that they are looking for employment or some type of work because busy hands stay out of trouble, more or less. The people that I talked to much older understand how prison works and know that by being occupied with their time, it’s a benefit to them. How much do people get compensated? How many people can work? What type of rights do they have? It’s start of a much larger discussion, or probably even the continuation of a conversation that’s been happening for some time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:09:34] Well, Pen, thank you so much for breaking this down for us. We really appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pendarvis Harshaw \u003c/strong>[00:09:39] Thank you. Thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:09:44] In a nutshell, a yes vote on Prop six means involuntary servitude would not be allowed as punishment for crime and that California prisons would not be allowed to discipline people in prison who refuse to work. A no vote means involuntary servitude would continue to be allowed as punishment for a crime in California. And that is it for today’s episode of Prop Fest. If you missed our other episodes, you can always find them at kqed.org/prop fest. Stay locked in and make sure you are subscribed so you don’t miss out on the next ones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:10:30] Prop fest is a collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious Podcasts. It is produced by Alan Montecillo, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Christopher Beale, Amanda Font, Jessica Kariisa, and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:10:45] We get extra support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, and Holly Kernan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:10:52] And the whole KQED family. For more super helpful info on both state and local elections, make sure to bookmark KQED is handy Election guide at kqed.org/voter Guide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:11:06] I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:11:08] And I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll be back next week with an explainer on prop 32, which would raise California’s minimum wage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:11:16] Talk to you then.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/propfest\">Prop Fest\u003c/a> is a collaboration from Bay Curious and The Bay podcasts, where we break down each of the 10 statewide propositions that will be on your November 2024 ballot. Check out \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/voterguide\">KQED’s Voter Guide\u003c/a> for more information on state and local races.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, arts and culture columnist Pendarvis Harshaw joins us to break down Prop. 6, an amendment to the California Constitution that would ban forced labor in prisons.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This episode has been updated to clarify the status of California’s volunteer firefighter program.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1694673417&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a transcript of the episode.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:02] Let’s take it back to history class real quick. In 1865, the U.S. ratified the 13th Amendment to the Constitution, otherwise known as the Prohibition Clause.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:17] This is the clause that we were all taught banned slavery and involuntary servitude in the United States once and for all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:25] Which it did, except not completely. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:32] And I’m Olivia Allen-Price. And you’re listening to Prop Fest, a collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious where we help you get smart on all the statewide propositions on your ballot this year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:45] The Constitution says slavery and involuntary servitude are prohibited except as punishment for convicted crimes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:54] That exception has allowed dozens of states, including California, to force incarcerated people to work in prisons whether they want to or not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:04] Proposition 6 hopes to close that loophole once and for all and begin limiting forced labor in California state prisons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:01:14] Today, we’re going to break down Proposition 6 for you right after this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:22] Today we’re talking about Proposition 6. Here’s how it will read on your ballot. Prop 6 amends the California Constitution to remove current provision that allows jails and prisons to impose involuntary servitude to punish crime, i.e., forcing incarcerated persons to work. Today, we talk with KQED arts and culture columnist Pendarvis Harshaw to help us break down what Prop 6 is all about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:51] Your story on prison labor mentions a poultry processing enterprise at a state prison near the Central Valley. I mean, there’s really it seems like a really wide range of jobs that California inmates are doing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pendarvis Harshaw \u003c/strong>[00:02:24] It’s the notion of what you can see, you know about, what you don’t see. You have no idea. People who are residents of different institutions around the state work on everything from furniture that appears in college dorm rooms to license plates and and things of that nature, even working internally and doing maintenance. Somebody told me about working on the big industrial dryers inside of a women’s facility. There are a lot of education or jobs or even counseling jobs that people who are incarcerated do as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:59] And some of this is, I mean, really dangerous work, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pendarvis Harshaw \u003c/strong>[00:03:04] Yeah. There’s the maintenance work that that can be done inside of prisons. Definitely dangerous. And not all jobs are blue collar or a front line. There are a lot of education or jobs or even counseling jobs that people who are incarcerated do as well. Folks have shared with me that some of them make $0.11 an hour or $0.14 an hour. And a lot of that goes not even directly into their pocket, can go into anything from health care to restitution. There are people who work for ducats or tokens, which essentially goes to time earned against their sentence. So they might get out sooner because of their labor. In southern states you’ve seen there are examples of people who work in chain gangs. And so the parallels between that and slavery are like clear present.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:55] Because there are also consequences for some folks inside of prisons. If you don’t want to work right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pendarvis Harshaw \u003c/strong>[00:04:02] If you get assigned a job and you do not work, then yes, you can be penalized.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:06] So enter then Prop 6 Pen, which would amend California’s constitution and prohibit the state from punishing inmates with involuntary work assignments. Can you talk a little bit more about the changes that Prop 6 would make exactly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pendarvis Harshaw \u003c/strong>[00:04:27] Prop six would essentially ban involuntary servitude in California prisons. California’s just the latest to try to close this loophole in the past two years. Alabama, Oregon, Tennessee and Vermont have all passed legislation in order to change this. This is a byproduct of years of work from different organizations and legislators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Asm. Lori Wilson \u003c/strong>[00:04:48] California is among only 16 states with an exception clause for involuntary servitude.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pendarvis Harshaw \u003c/strong>[00:04:55] This particular year, Legislative Black Caucus. Lori Wilson did a lot of work to get this off the ground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Asm. Lori Wilson \u003c/strong>[00:05:01] Slavery takes on the modern form of involuntary servitude, including forced labor in prisons. Slavery is wrong, and all forms in California should be clear and denouncing that in our Constitution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pendarvis Harshaw \u003c/strong>[00:05:16] There’s been a lot of support by the organization that I talked to, all of us or None, which is a community group that’s based in Oakland, California. Their work is to help formerly incarcerated folks return to society, as well as to get behind initiatives like this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lawrence Cox \u003c/strong>[00:05:33] We want to give people the choice of whether or not they choose to work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pendarvis Harshaw \u003c/strong>[00:05:38] Lawrence Cox is one of three people that I talk to who work for All of Us Or None. They filled me in on some background.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lawrence Cox \u003c/strong>[00:05:44] For us here in California. This is the fourth consecutive year that we’ve attempted to make that reach the ballot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pendarvis Harshaw \u003c/strong>[00:05:51] Saying it’s about humanity, it’s about labor rights. And then beyond that, it’s about this capitalist system. And Lawrence Cox talked about this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Lawrence Cox \u003c/strong>[00:06:00] We’re not only trying to change the Constitution because we’re not talking about symbolism. We’re focused on creating airtight solutions that prevent the exploitation of individuals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:12] Who else do we know is for Prop six?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pendarvis Harshaw \u003c/strong>[00:06:17] Other organizations that are in favor of Prop six are orgs that do the work for people who are incarcerated, families who are incarcerated and people who are reentering society. So the anti recidivism coalition, ACLU of Northern California, organizations that are on the frontlines working with these folks who have been impacted by the system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:37] And do we know what like the money is looking like in terms of support for Prop six? Who’s throwing coin basically into the Yes on Prop six campaign?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pendarvis Harshaw \u003c/strong>[00:06:49] It’s it’s a tilted scale. Nearly $500,000 worth of support behind Prop six. And there have been $0 spent on the no side.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:07:03] There’s no official opposition to Prop six, but the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association has said it opposes it. There have also been a few newspaper editorial boards that call on voters to reject Prop six. The Bay Area News Group argued in a recent op ed that says, quote, Requiring inmates to sweep floors, clean the bathrooms or cook in the kitchen is reasonable. If we expect the same of ourselves and our children, if we insist members of the military conduct those chores, certainly we can ask incarcerated, convicted criminals to do the same, unquote. This also isn’t the first time advocates have tried to pass a similar idea. Back in 2020, the End Slavery in California Act was first introduced. But after two years in the legislature, it failed because lawmakers were worried about how much it would cost. That’s why this time, Prop six allows inmates to volunteer for work assignments without pay, but only if they want to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:08:18] Well, I know you visited San Quentin earlier this year, and I’m curious where you heard from people. Did any of this sort of conversation that we’re having now come up in your visit there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pendarvis Harshaw \u003c/strong>[00:08:31] It came up naturally. I was in San Quentin in early August, tagging along with a group of journalists, doing a more or less a media day just to get a sense of the media that was being produced out of San Quentin. And of course, if you’re producing media, you’re working and you should be compensated for your work. And so naturally, the conversation would come up like, how much do you make? It was mind blowing because it was said like it was just common or even laughed at like here, you know, just making a little $0.14 here and there, almost saying it in jest or saying it and moving on to the next topic. People have told me that they are looking for employment or some type of work because busy hands stay out of trouble, more or less. The people that I talked to much older understand how prison works and know that by being occupied with their time, it’s a benefit to them. How much do people get compensated? How many people can work? What type of rights do they have? It’s start of a much larger discussion, or probably even the continuation of a conversation that’s been happening for some time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:09:34] Well, Pen, thank you so much for breaking this down for us. We really appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Pendarvis Harshaw \u003c/strong>[00:09:39] Thank you. Thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:09:44] In a nutshell, a yes vote on Prop six means involuntary servitude would not be allowed as punishment for crime and that California prisons would not be allowed to discipline people in prison who refuse to work. A no vote means involuntary servitude would continue to be allowed as punishment for a crime in California. And that is it for today’s episode of Prop Fest. If you missed our other episodes, you can always find them at kqed.org/prop fest. Stay locked in and make sure you are subscribed so you don’t miss out on the next ones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:10:30] Prop fest is a collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious Podcasts. It is produced by Alan Montecillo, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Christopher Beale, Amanda Font, Jessica Kariisa, and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:10:45] We get extra support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, and Holly Kernan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:10:52] And the whole KQED family. For more super helpful info on both state and local elections, make sure to bookmark KQED is handy Election guide at kqed.org/voter Guide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:11:06] I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:11:08] And I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll be back next week with an explainer on prop 32, which would raise California’s minimum wage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "Proposition 5 Would Lower the Voting Threshold for Certain Local Bond Measures",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/propfest\">Prop Fest\u003c/a> is a collaboration from Bay Curious and The Bay podcasts, where we break down each of the 10 statewide propositions that will be on your November 2024 ballot. Check out \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/voterguide\">KQED’s Voter Guide\u003c/a> for more information on state and local races.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today, reporter Adhiti Bandlamudi helps us parse through the nuances of Proposition 5, which asks voters to lower the threshold to pass local bonds for affordable housing and public infrastructure from a two-thirds majority to 55%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This episode has been updated from a previous version to clarify ramifications of Proposition 13.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3997284697&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a transcript of the episode. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Let’s take a quick trip through some recent election results for local bond measures around California, shall we…?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> 2020. Measure A. San Diego. A $900 million bond for low-income, substance abuse, and mental health service housing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Failed with 57% of voters in favor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> 2022. Measure L. City of Berkeley. A $650 million bond to fund housing and infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Failed with 59% of voters in favor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> 2022. Proposition A. San Francisco. A $400 million bond for transit improvements and repairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Failed with 65% of voters in favor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> I’m noticing a trend…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Indeed! California makes it difficult for local governments to borrow money. They have to ask voters for permission – and then get a SUPERMAJORITY of votes – that’s two-thirds of the vote or 66.67%. That’s meant a lot of local bond measures fail, even when they have a lot of public support.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> But Proposition 5 could change that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Olivia Allen-Price: I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, host of The Bay. This is Prop Fest – our podcast series that goes deep on explaining the props on California’s ballot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We’re covering ten props in ten days, all so you can vote with confidence this November.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Prop 5 is looking to lower the threshold of voter support needed to pass local bond measures for housing and public infrastructure projects.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> I know it sounds pretty wonky – but this one could have a big impact for local budgets … and for homeowners.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Because if more bonds start passing someone has to pay for them. And it’s probably you … or your landlord … who then passes that cost on to you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> We’ll get into the details on Proposition 5 just ahead on Prop Fest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Let’s get into it on Proposition 5. Here’s how it will appear on your ballot…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover:\u003c/strong> Proposition 5 ALLOWS LOCAL BONDS FOR AFFORDABLE HOUSING AND PUBLIC INFRASTRUCTURE WITH 55% VOTER APPROVAL. It’s a constitutional amendment that was placed on the ballot by the state legislature.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> To help explain what’s at stake with Prop 5. I’m joined by reporter Adhiti Bandlamudi Hey, Adhiti.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Hey, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So Prop 5 impacts how we pass local bonds in this state. So I want to start with a quick refresher for people. What exactly is a bond?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Okay, so bonds are a way for state and local governments to raise money for big projects that they want to do now, but pay over time. You might think of it as sort of like a 30-year mortgage you might have on a house, right? The bank gives you a bunch of money upfront to buy the house, and then you pay it back in small installments with interest over time. Government bonds work kind of the same way, except instead of being used to buy a house, the government uses the money for all sorts of things like renovating schools, fixing potholes, funding public transportation, things like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And right now, if a local government in California wants to borrow money, they always have to get voter approval. And not just the majority of the vote, but actually two thirds of the vote. The state, on the other hand, only needs 55% of voters’ support for their bonds. So it’s essentially harder for a city or county to pass a bond than it is for the state. What could Prop 5 change about that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> So Prop 5 wants to lower that threshold of votes that local governments would need to get from two thirds to 55%, but only for two types of bonds, affordable housing and for public infrastructure projects. Affordable housing bonds would mean money to build new affordable housing funding, down payment assistance programs, or a low income housing support, for example. Public infrastructure bonds could mean money for road repairs, water management, parks, hospitals, stuff like that. This prop also includes a rule that local governments have to put accountability measures in place so if they issue a bond. Taxpayers know where their money is going. And the interesting thing to note here is that back in 2000, voters passed a proposition that lowered the voter threshold to 55% for school bonds. So this is already something that has come up before the voters and they approved it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Can you walk through why there’s this focus specifically on housing affordability and public infrastructure bonds?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, California’s housing affordability crisis impacts everyone. And it’s growing worse and worse every year. So much so that more people are losing their homes or moving out of the state entirely. Public infrastructure is also hard to fund. There are some hospitals that are falling into disrepair, and it’s been hard for them to get funding. Even just getting a bike lane installed on a road can be really expensive. And, you know, bond measures have some results. For example, in 2019, San Francisco passed Prop eight, which approved $600 million in bonds for affordable housing. And some of that money went to fund Shirley Chisholm Village, a development for educators in the San Francisco Unified School District. So, teacher housing. And it’s set to open this fall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And why lower the voter threshold?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> In short, they want more of these local bonds to have a better chance of passing. A lot of local bond measures have failed recently, despite having incredibly strong voter support. Here’s Edie Irons, who works for All Homes, an affordable housing advocacy group.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Edie Irons:\u003c/strong> I was just looking at a list of like ten measures for housing across the state in the last just handful of years that failed. Because they got 55%, 59%, 60%, 66%. It’s too high of a bar. You know, a two thirds threshold is not actually a functional way to govern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Now, if Prop 5 passes, do we have a sense of how many more of these local bond measures would pass?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> The Legislative Analyst’s Office has done an analysis on recent local election results, and they say an additional 20% to 50% of local bond measures would have passed under Proposition Five’s lower voter approval requirement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Okay. Yeah, that’s quite a bit. Now, this two thirds threshold that currently exists was set back in 1978 with the passage of Proposition 13. Folks will remember that Prop 13 was all about limiting property tax increases for homeowners. Can you walk us through why that two thirds threshold was part of Prop 13?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Totally. So when Prop 13 was introduced to the voters in the late 70s, it came at a time when property taxes were fluctuating a lot, partially because there was a huge population boom leading to an increase in demand for housing and a lot of inflation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here’s anti-tax activist Howard Jarvis, one of the big proponents of Prop 13, in a 1978 debate…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Howard Jarvis (Archival Tape):\u003c/strong> \u003cem>The second objective of the amendment is to enable elderly people unlimited incomes, which there are 3 or 4 million in this state, to be able to retain the homes that they have bought and paid for. And who are in serious danger today, because of rapidly escalating property taxes, of losing their homes.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> The property taxes rose so much that some people living on their retirements, who were on a fixed income, couldn’t keep up and some even lost their homes. Prop 13 came in and said, we’re going to make sure property taxes are tied to the home’s value when you bought the home, not the current market value, which could fluctuate. And what it also said is that it would make it harder for local governments to raise those property taxes through bond measures.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In California, our state government is primarily funded by income taxes. So the money you probably see taken out of your paycheck every few weeks. Our local governments are funded primarily through property taxes. So language in Prop 13 set the threshold to pass a local bond to two thirds to make it harder to pass bonds and thus less likely, homeowners would see property tax increases.\u003cbr>\nSo if Prop 5 this year passes, local governments will have an easier time approving bond measures, and it’s more likely that homeowners will see property tax increases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that’s the thing. Opponents of Prop 5 are worried about that. It chips away at some of those protections Prop 13 has held in place for decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> There are many critiques of Prop 13, and the implications it’s had on everything from the cost of housing to income inequality … but for the purposes of this episode, know Prop 13 had a drastic and immediate impact on the amount of money going to local governments. And that’s taken a toll on everything that’s traditionally funded by local government – like schools and local infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Adhiti, Prop 13 has long been called, you know, a political third rail, something that just cannot be touched because it’s so popular with many homeowners in California. Is that still the case if we’re seeing, you know, things like Prop 5 on our ballot?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I wanted to figure that out. And so I talked to Mark Baldassare from the Public Policy Institute of California for this. Back in 2018, he had done a survey on how people felt about Prop 13 at that time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Baldassare:\u003c/strong> Pretty consistently. More than 6 in 10 people in California in our polling say that they feel overall Proposition 13 has been mostly a good thing. So convincing people that something that the voters passed even a long time ago needs to be changed is a hurdle. And it might impact their own taxes and ultimately their cost of living at a time when people are very sensitive about rising costs of living in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Now, to be fair, I don’t know how many people will read Prop 5 text and think about Prop 13. I also don’t know how many people will read about Prop 5 and think about their property taxes increasing because not everyone realizes that local bond measures are funded through property tax hikes. But if Prop 5 passes, it could be a bellwether for Prop 13 future as we see more of its protections chipped away year after year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Now, I know there’s been some controversy about the language of the measure or basically what voters will read on the ballot. What are opponents saying about that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Yeah, there has been a lot of concern about the language of this prop. It doesn’t specify that the 55% threshold is a decrease from the existing two thirds threshold. And many, like former San Jose Councilmember Johnny Khamis, are concerned that voters won’t fully understand what they’re voting on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johnny Khamis\u003c/strong>: I think it’s misleading. The best I can say is it’s a proposition that is going to be reducing the threshold to passing a new tax when in fact the language on the ballot makes you feel like you’re increasing the voting threshold. So I think it’s misleading and dishonest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> There was even a court case over the language on the ballot, but ultimately, the language on the ballot was permitted to remain as is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> This prop has a lot of ramifications for property taxes, as we’ve been talking about already. But how does California stack up against other states currently on that front?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Yeah, California’s property tax rates aren’t that high when you compare us to other states. In fact, our property tax rates are actually kind of low. But because our property values here are really high, the amount people end up paying can feel like a lot. And because property taxes can only increase by a little bit every year, it can be really hard for local governments to keep up with maintaining their cities, especially if they have huge population booms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Which probably accounts for a lot of Bay Area regions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Very much so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Now, how did Prop 5 end up on the ballot?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> The legislature voted to put Prop 5 on the ballot last year. It’s part of a series of attempts to solve the state’s increasingly dire housing crisis. This is just one way local governments could raise money to approach housing affordability at the local level. It’s a change that has to be voted on by Californians because it would mean a change to the state’s constitution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Take us through who is in support of this one and why.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Lots of organizations support this proposition, including the California Democratic Party. California YIMBY also known as Yes in My Backyard, California Housing Partnership and the California Apartment Association, among many, many, many others. Affordable housing activists are really excited about this bond, particularly because we’re coming out of a kind of lackluster year when it comes to funding for housing at the state level. We had two multibillion dollar bond measures that were going to go before the voters but died along the way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some argue that Prop 13 has made it hard for local governments to spend money locally, and they have to rely on the state to pass these big bond measures. And then that money trickles its way down to the cities that need it. I spoke with Amie Fishman from the nonprofit Housing Association of Northern California about this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amie Fishman\u003c/strong>: Our focus is on how do we empower local communities to directly address their own affordable housing and infrastructure needs. And Prop 5 allows communities to take control of their futures, really, and make the necessary investments without waiting for state intervention.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And who’s lining up in opposition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Generally, groups that are anti-tax. The Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association has been against this initiative since it was just a proposal. The California Chamber of Commerce is against it and the very powerful California Association of Realtors. Here’s former San Jose Councilmember Johnny Khamis again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johnny Khamis:\u003c/strong> It actually reverses a lot of the protections that we had under Prop 13. It actually makes it much easier to pass new bonds, new, you know, which I think that we do need a good infrastructure. We do need things. But I also am very cognizant of the fact that my mom received her property tax bill in November that she has to pay. And there’s currently, you know, my mom, who’s retired and is on a limited income has 17– already 17 taxes that are not her property tax. So these are 17 parcel measures from anything from the water district to the county to the school boards to the you name it. There’s 17 currently. You know, I think that this could open the floodgates to new propositions and taxes and make and make it much harder for seniors like my mother to live in the area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Now, this proposition does have some accountability measures there, but people worry about whether the rules will actually be followed. Bond money is sometimes misappropriated, even with accountability measures in place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And how is the campaign spending shaking out here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> As of mid-September, when we’re recording this conversation, the opponents of Prop 5 have raised almost $30 million to fight this. Meanwhile, the ‘yes’ camp has raised about 5 million. But I should add, a lot of that $30 million from the ‘no’ camp came from realty groups, but their opposition has cooled slightly because the legislature made some concessions before this was placed on the ballot. There is now language in Prop 5 that bans local governments from using the bond money to buy up existing single family homes and converting them into affordable units, something the realty groups didn’t want to happen. And just to make it clear, this proposition lowers the voter threshold, but people still have to vote in order for a bond measure to pass. So it’s not like cities can just pass bond measures without say so from the taxpayers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right. Well, thank you for walking us through this one. It was way more complicated than I anticipated when I first read it. Housing reporter Adhiti Bandlamudi, thanks again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me. This was really complicated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We made it through.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In summary, a vote yes on Prop 5 means you want the threshold of voter support needed for local affordable housing and public infrastructure bonds to be lowered from two thirds to 55%. This means it’s more likely that bonds will pass and more funding will be available for those types of projects. A vote no on Prop 5 means you want to keep that two thirds threshold in place and you want to maintain Prop 13 protections against property tax increases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> That’s a wrap on Prop 5. Thanks for tuning in to Prop Fest – a collaboration between The Bay and Bay Curious podcasts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> If you’re finding these episodes valuable, please share them with a friend, tell your neighbors, post about them on social media… We put a ton of work into these episodes and we really want people to find them before Election Day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> Prop Fest is produced by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Ana De Almeda Amaral, Olivia Allen-Price, Alan Montecillo, Jessica Kariisa, And me Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Extra support from Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan, And the whole KQED family\u003cbr>\nEricka Cruz Guevarra: You can find audio and transcripts for this series at KQED.org/PropFest …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Join your friends and neighbors and support our work today. Give at KQED.org/donate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. We’ll be back tomorrow with an explainer on Proposition 6 – which looks to end involuntary servitude for incarcerated people. Thanks for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/propfest\">Prop Fest\u003c/a> is a collaboration from Bay Curious and The Bay podcasts, where we break down each of the 10 statewide propositions that will be on your November 2024 ballot. Check out \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/voterguide\">KQED’s Voter Guide\u003c/a> for more information on state and local races.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today, reporter Adhiti Bandlamudi helps us parse through the nuances of Proposition 5, which asks voters to lower the threshold to pass local bonds for affordable housing and public infrastructure from a two-thirds majority to 55%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This episode has been updated from a previous version to clarify ramifications of Proposition 13.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3997284697&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a transcript of the episode. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Let’s take a quick trip through some recent election results for local bond measures around California, shall we…?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> 2020. Measure A. San Diego. A $900 million bond for low-income, substance abuse, and mental health service housing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Failed with 57% of voters in favor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> 2022. Measure L. City of Berkeley. A $650 million bond to fund housing and infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Failed with 59% of voters in favor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> 2022. Proposition A. San Francisco. A $400 million bond for transit improvements and repairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Failed with 65% of voters in favor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> I’m noticing a trend…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Indeed! California makes it difficult for local governments to borrow money. They have to ask voters for permission – and then get a SUPERMAJORITY of votes – that’s two-thirds of the vote or 66.67%. That’s meant a lot of local bond measures fail, even when they have a lot of public support.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> But Proposition 5 could change that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Olivia Allen-Price: I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, host of The Bay. This is Prop Fest – our podcast series that goes deep on explaining the props on California’s ballot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We’re covering ten props in ten days, all so you can vote with confidence this November.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Prop 5 is looking to lower the threshold of voter support needed to pass local bond measures for housing and public infrastructure projects.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> I know it sounds pretty wonky – but this one could have a big impact for local budgets … and for homeowners.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Because if more bonds start passing someone has to pay for them. And it’s probably you … or your landlord … who then passes that cost on to you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> We’ll get into the details on Proposition 5 just ahead on Prop Fest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Let’s get into it on Proposition 5. Here’s how it will appear on your ballot…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover:\u003c/strong> Proposition 5 ALLOWS LOCAL BONDS FOR AFFORDABLE HOUSING AND PUBLIC INFRASTRUCTURE WITH 55% VOTER APPROVAL. It’s a constitutional amendment that was placed on the ballot by the state legislature.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> To help explain what’s at stake with Prop 5. I’m joined by reporter Adhiti Bandlamudi Hey, Adhiti.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Hey, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So Prop 5 impacts how we pass local bonds in this state. So I want to start with a quick refresher for people. What exactly is a bond?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Okay, so bonds are a way for state and local governments to raise money for big projects that they want to do now, but pay over time. You might think of it as sort of like a 30-year mortgage you might have on a house, right? The bank gives you a bunch of money upfront to buy the house, and then you pay it back in small installments with interest over time. Government bonds work kind of the same way, except instead of being used to buy a house, the government uses the money for all sorts of things like renovating schools, fixing potholes, funding public transportation, things like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And right now, if a local government in California wants to borrow money, they always have to get voter approval. And not just the majority of the vote, but actually two thirds of the vote. The state, on the other hand, only needs 55% of voters’ support for their bonds. So it’s essentially harder for a city or county to pass a bond than it is for the state. What could Prop 5 change about that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> So Prop 5 wants to lower that threshold of votes that local governments would need to get from two thirds to 55%, but only for two types of bonds, affordable housing and for public infrastructure projects. Affordable housing bonds would mean money to build new affordable housing funding, down payment assistance programs, or a low income housing support, for example. Public infrastructure bonds could mean money for road repairs, water management, parks, hospitals, stuff like that. This prop also includes a rule that local governments have to put accountability measures in place so if they issue a bond. Taxpayers know where their money is going. And the interesting thing to note here is that back in 2000, voters passed a proposition that lowered the voter threshold to 55% for school bonds. So this is already something that has come up before the voters and they approved it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Can you walk through why there’s this focus specifically on housing affordability and public infrastructure bonds?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, California’s housing affordability crisis impacts everyone. And it’s growing worse and worse every year. So much so that more people are losing their homes or moving out of the state entirely. Public infrastructure is also hard to fund. There are some hospitals that are falling into disrepair, and it’s been hard for them to get funding. Even just getting a bike lane installed on a road can be really expensive. And, you know, bond measures have some results. For example, in 2019, San Francisco passed Prop eight, which approved $600 million in bonds for affordable housing. And some of that money went to fund Shirley Chisholm Village, a development for educators in the San Francisco Unified School District. So, teacher housing. And it’s set to open this fall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And why lower the voter threshold?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> In short, they want more of these local bonds to have a better chance of passing. A lot of local bond measures have failed recently, despite having incredibly strong voter support. Here’s Edie Irons, who works for All Homes, an affordable housing advocacy group.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Edie Irons:\u003c/strong> I was just looking at a list of like ten measures for housing across the state in the last just handful of years that failed. Because they got 55%, 59%, 60%, 66%. It’s too high of a bar. You know, a two thirds threshold is not actually a functional way to govern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Now, if Prop 5 passes, do we have a sense of how many more of these local bond measures would pass?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> The Legislative Analyst’s Office has done an analysis on recent local election results, and they say an additional 20% to 50% of local bond measures would have passed under Proposition Five’s lower voter approval requirement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Okay. Yeah, that’s quite a bit. Now, this two thirds threshold that currently exists was set back in 1978 with the passage of Proposition 13. Folks will remember that Prop 13 was all about limiting property tax increases for homeowners. Can you walk us through why that two thirds threshold was part of Prop 13?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Totally. So when Prop 13 was introduced to the voters in the late 70s, it came at a time when property taxes were fluctuating a lot, partially because there was a huge population boom leading to an increase in demand for housing and a lot of inflation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here’s anti-tax activist Howard Jarvis, one of the big proponents of Prop 13, in a 1978 debate…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Howard Jarvis (Archival Tape):\u003c/strong> \u003cem>The second objective of the amendment is to enable elderly people unlimited incomes, which there are 3 or 4 million in this state, to be able to retain the homes that they have bought and paid for. And who are in serious danger today, because of rapidly escalating property taxes, of losing their homes.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> The property taxes rose so much that some people living on their retirements, who were on a fixed income, couldn’t keep up and some even lost their homes. Prop 13 came in and said, we’re going to make sure property taxes are tied to the home’s value when you bought the home, not the current market value, which could fluctuate. And what it also said is that it would make it harder for local governments to raise those property taxes through bond measures.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In California, our state government is primarily funded by income taxes. So the money you probably see taken out of your paycheck every few weeks. Our local governments are funded primarily through property taxes. So language in Prop 13 set the threshold to pass a local bond to two thirds to make it harder to pass bonds and thus less likely, homeowners would see property tax increases.\u003cbr>\nSo if Prop 5 this year passes, local governments will have an easier time approving bond measures, and it’s more likely that homeowners will see property tax increases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that’s the thing. Opponents of Prop 5 are worried about that. It chips away at some of those protections Prop 13 has held in place for decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> There are many critiques of Prop 13, and the implications it’s had on everything from the cost of housing to income inequality … but for the purposes of this episode, know Prop 13 had a drastic and immediate impact on the amount of money going to local governments. And that’s taken a toll on everything that’s traditionally funded by local government – like schools and local infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Adhiti, Prop 13 has long been called, you know, a political third rail, something that just cannot be touched because it’s so popular with many homeowners in California. Is that still the case if we’re seeing, you know, things like Prop 5 on our ballot?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I wanted to figure that out. And so I talked to Mark Baldassare from the Public Policy Institute of California for this. Back in 2018, he had done a survey on how people felt about Prop 13 at that time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Baldassare:\u003c/strong> Pretty consistently. More than 6 in 10 people in California in our polling say that they feel overall Proposition 13 has been mostly a good thing. So convincing people that something that the voters passed even a long time ago needs to be changed is a hurdle. And it might impact their own taxes and ultimately their cost of living at a time when people are very sensitive about rising costs of living in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Now, to be fair, I don’t know how many people will read Prop 5 text and think about Prop 13. I also don’t know how many people will read about Prop 5 and think about their property taxes increasing because not everyone realizes that local bond measures are funded through property tax hikes. But if Prop 5 passes, it could be a bellwether for Prop 13 future as we see more of its protections chipped away year after year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Now, I know there’s been some controversy about the language of the measure or basically what voters will read on the ballot. What are opponents saying about that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Yeah, there has been a lot of concern about the language of this prop. It doesn’t specify that the 55% threshold is a decrease from the existing two thirds threshold. And many, like former San Jose Councilmember Johnny Khamis, are concerned that voters won’t fully understand what they’re voting on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johnny Khamis\u003c/strong>: I think it’s misleading. The best I can say is it’s a proposition that is going to be reducing the threshold to passing a new tax when in fact the language on the ballot makes you feel like you’re increasing the voting threshold. So I think it’s misleading and dishonest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> There was even a court case over the language on the ballot, but ultimately, the language on the ballot was permitted to remain as is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> This prop has a lot of ramifications for property taxes, as we’ve been talking about already. But how does California stack up against other states currently on that front?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Yeah, California’s property tax rates aren’t that high when you compare us to other states. In fact, our property tax rates are actually kind of low. But because our property values here are really high, the amount people end up paying can feel like a lot. And because property taxes can only increase by a little bit every year, it can be really hard for local governments to keep up with maintaining their cities, especially if they have huge population booms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Which probably accounts for a lot of Bay Area regions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Very much so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Now, how did Prop 5 end up on the ballot?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> The legislature voted to put Prop 5 on the ballot last year. It’s part of a series of attempts to solve the state’s increasingly dire housing crisis. This is just one way local governments could raise money to approach housing affordability at the local level. It’s a change that has to be voted on by Californians because it would mean a change to the state’s constitution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Take us through who is in support of this one and why.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Lots of organizations support this proposition, including the California Democratic Party. California YIMBY also known as Yes in My Backyard, California Housing Partnership and the California Apartment Association, among many, many, many others. Affordable housing activists are really excited about this bond, particularly because we’re coming out of a kind of lackluster year when it comes to funding for housing at the state level. We had two multibillion dollar bond measures that were going to go before the voters but died along the way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some argue that Prop 13 has made it hard for local governments to spend money locally, and they have to rely on the state to pass these big bond measures. And then that money trickles its way down to the cities that need it. I spoke with Amie Fishman from the nonprofit Housing Association of Northern California about this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amie Fishman\u003c/strong>: Our focus is on how do we empower local communities to directly address their own affordable housing and infrastructure needs. And Prop 5 allows communities to take control of their futures, really, and make the necessary investments without waiting for state intervention.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And who’s lining up in opposition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Generally, groups that are anti-tax. The Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association has been against this initiative since it was just a proposal. The California Chamber of Commerce is against it and the very powerful California Association of Realtors. Here’s former San Jose Councilmember Johnny Khamis again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johnny Khamis:\u003c/strong> It actually reverses a lot of the protections that we had under Prop 13. It actually makes it much easier to pass new bonds, new, you know, which I think that we do need a good infrastructure. We do need things. But I also am very cognizant of the fact that my mom received her property tax bill in November that she has to pay. And there’s currently, you know, my mom, who’s retired and is on a limited income has 17– already 17 taxes that are not her property tax. So these are 17 parcel measures from anything from the water district to the county to the school boards to the you name it. There’s 17 currently. You know, I think that this could open the floodgates to new propositions and taxes and make and make it much harder for seniors like my mother to live in the area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Now, this proposition does have some accountability measures there, but people worry about whether the rules will actually be followed. Bond money is sometimes misappropriated, even with accountability measures in place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And how is the campaign spending shaking out here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> As of mid-September, when we’re recording this conversation, the opponents of Prop 5 have raised almost $30 million to fight this. Meanwhile, the ‘yes’ camp has raised about 5 million. But I should add, a lot of that $30 million from the ‘no’ camp came from realty groups, but their opposition has cooled slightly because the legislature made some concessions before this was placed on the ballot. There is now language in Prop 5 that bans local governments from using the bond money to buy up existing single family homes and converting them into affordable units, something the realty groups didn’t want to happen. And just to make it clear, this proposition lowers the voter threshold, but people still have to vote in order for a bond measure to pass. So it’s not like cities can just pass bond measures without say so from the taxpayers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right. Well, thank you for walking us through this one. It was way more complicated than I anticipated when I first read it. Housing reporter Adhiti Bandlamudi, thanks again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me. This was really complicated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We made it through.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In summary, a vote yes on Prop 5 means you want the threshold of voter support needed for local affordable housing and public infrastructure bonds to be lowered from two thirds to 55%. This means it’s more likely that bonds will pass and more funding will be available for those types of projects. A vote no on Prop 5 means you want to keep that two thirds threshold in place and you want to maintain Prop 13 protections against property tax increases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> That’s a wrap on Prop 5. Thanks for tuning in to Prop Fest – a collaboration between The Bay and Bay Curious podcasts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> If you’re finding these episodes valuable, please share them with a friend, tell your neighbors, post about them on social media… We put a ton of work into these episodes and we really want people to find them before Election Day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> Prop Fest is produced by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Ana De Almeda Amaral, Olivia Allen-Price, Alan Montecillo, Jessica Kariisa, And me Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Extra support from Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan, And the whole KQED family\u003cbr>\nEricka Cruz Guevarra: You can find audio and transcripts for this series at KQED.org/PropFest …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Join your friends and neighbors and support our work today. Give at KQED.org/donate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. We’ll be back tomorrow with an explainer on Proposition 6 – which looks to end involuntary servitude for incarcerated people. Thanks for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "transcript-proposition-4-would-raise-10-billion-in-bonds-for-climate-projects",
"title": "Proposition 4 Would Raise $10 Billion in Bonds for Climate Projects",
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"headTitle": "Proposition 4 Would Raise $10 Billion in Bonds for Climate Projects | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/propfest\">Prop Fest\u003c/a> is a collaboration from Bay Curious and The Bay podcasts, where we break down each of the 10 statewide propositions that will be on your November 2024 ballot. Check out \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/voterguide\">KQED’s Voter Guide\u003c/a> for more information on state and local races.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today, KQED climate reporter Ezra David Romero breaks down Proposition 4, a $10 billion bond for climate and environment-related projects across the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"card card--enclosed grey\">\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8420453070&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a transcript of the episode.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] California has got some of the most ambitious climate goals in the country and the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:06] In 2022, the state released the world’s first plan to achieve net zero carbon pollution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:13] But we’re not going to get there overnight or for free.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:17] It’s going to take a radical reimagining of how we live life in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:24] I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:26] And I’m Olivia Allen-Price. And you’re listening to Prop Fest, a collaboration between the Bay and Bay curious where we help you get smart on all the statewide propositions on your ballot this year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:39] Earlier this year, the state legislature passed a $10 billion bond to invest in climate change programs and solutions. And now it needs voters final seal of approval.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:51] And it’s coming to you in the form of proposition for the climate bond.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:56] This proposal to borrow more money for climate change solutions comes at a time when the state made some tough decisions on climate related programs because of a big budget deficit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:01:08] So now it’s up to voters to decide how much of a priority climate change solutions are. By voting to approve or reject this $10 billion bond.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:18] Today, we’re going to break down Proposition 4 for you right after this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:28] Today we’re talking about Proposition four. Here’s how it will read on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Voiceover \u003c/strong>[00:01:33] Prop 4 authorizes 10 billion in general obligation bonds for water, wildfire prevention and protection of communities and lands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:41] We hit up climate reporter Ezra David Romero to break down what this prop will mean for you. Well, Ezra, so we’ve got another bond on the ballot this November. This time voters are being asked to borrow $10 billion for investments in climate change solutions. What is the back story like? How did this get on the ballot in the first place?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>[00:02:04] Yeah. To understand that, we have to go back a couple of years, when environmental lobbyists started lobbying the legislature to like say, look, let’s have a climate bond. Let’s create some big projects that can hopefully protect the state from wildfires and floods and things like that. About two years ago, both sides of the state legislature came up with two different bond measures for about $15 billion each to, you know, combat climate change across California. But at the same time, California was going through this really big, huge budget deficit. Right? And this year, we had about a $46.8 billion budget deficit, which meant that some of these climate programs were also going to get cut. It was really about like, how can we do this? Like really big infrastructure projects that can make sure our future is safe when it comes to wildfires, when it comes to flood, maybe like sea level rise, drought, things like that. And the fight to get this climate bond this year was actually like quite until the end. The two sides of the legislature came together and created one climate bond. And it really wasn’t even in real language until the day before it was due a few months ago. And that’s because a few things like the state only had a certain amount of bonding capacity. How much money the state’s really willing to like go in debt for. And then there were like competing bonds and housing and education. And then also, like climate groups really wanted this thing. But ultimately it happened. And now we have like a $10 billion bond that voters can potentially vote for in November.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:39] Right. And clearly, lawmakers believe that addressing climate change with this bond was important enough. So what exactly was their rationale behind this? How did they talk about that in the state legislature?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>[00:03:53] Yeah, I think it’s really quite simple. We live in a state that has all these climate effects happening right now. Just think of this year, right? We had major wildfires in Southern California just this past month. We had major flooding in Los Angeles, you know, earlier in the year. We had extreme hot days in Sacramento for like a couple of weeks. Right. And then we had the fourth largest fire in California history called the Park Fire near Chico. So we had all these things happening at the same time. We needed to prepare for the future because all these things could get worse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Asm. Damon Connolly \u003c/strong>[00:04:26] People are living the consequences right now in our state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>[00:04:31] I spoke to Damon Connolly. He’s the assemblymember for the San Rafael area. And he basically said, you know, like his area floods, his area burns, and like this climate bond would help protect his region, hopefully from future climate change when it comes to flooding and drought and fires in the future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Asm. Damon Connolly \u003c/strong>[00:04:49] The climate bond proposal will ensure that our investments in climate resilience are bolstered rather than falling by the wayside.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:58] So this climate bond passed in the legislature and now voters will decide whether or not to approve it. And the official name is actually got a lot going on in it. It’s the Safe Drinking Water, Drought Preparedness and Clean Air Bond Act of 2024. It’s got lots of things going in there. Ezra, what would Prop 4 do exactly, though?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>[00:05:24] Yeah, you’re right. It does have like this big name and that’s because it’s this big bond to do many things. And I think to like get Californians across the state to vote for it. It has to do a lot of things. Right, because the climate effects in, say, Southern California aren’t the same in Central California or Northern California or the Bay Area. First, it provides funds for some of those programs that were cut because of the budget cuts, and that’s a smaller amount. And then in a really big way I think the second thing it does is going to be used mostly for these big infrastructure projects like improving levees or the storm water systems that capture water during storms, preparing homes for wildfires and thinning the forests that could burn or preparing for the drought when it comes to like water supplies. A lot of this money is going to go to water and flooding about $3.8 billion, the most money out of the entire bond in one area. One of those areas is water recycling. You know, that’s where our water from, our toilets or our showers, you know, goes into like a water plant. And then it’s like cleaned up in, say, in the San Francisco Bay area. It goes back into the bay. But the idea there is they want to spend $400 million to make these plants into more of a water recycling plant where we reuse that water perhaps for drinking or for our gardens or our lawns and things like that. And that’s really important because in the future, as we have more droughts, like we’re going to have like a smaller water supply.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:56] And we talked about some statewide programs getting cut from the governor’s budget because of this budget deficit that the state is facing. But what kinds of climate programs could actually get restored with the money from this bond?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>[00:07:15] One program really sticks out to me. That’s the Transformative Climate Communities Program. And that’s all about like making sure communities themselves can come up with their own ways to reduce greenhouse gas emissions in their own communities. In the budget, in the in the over the past two years, that program was basically zeroed out. And this bond, if like California voters vote for it like could restore that project to $150 million. And that project has helped communities all over California like Arvin, Stockton, Bakersfield, Pomona, Coachella, San Diego. So it’s really helped communities all across the state. And that funding could come back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:07:55] Yeah, that’s I mean, that’s a huge difference as far as $0 to $150 million for this program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>[00:08:01] Yeah, definitely. You know, it could bring to life this program and allow grants to be given to more communities. Basically, that program cycles a number of grants every year, and this will allow them to potentially give more grants to communities if voters vote for it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:08:19] So, I mean, it seems pretty clear that Democrats in the legislature who who voted for this bond and approved it in the legislature earlier this year are for this bond. But who else is supporting Proposition 4?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>[00:08:35] Well, there’s this really big group of environmental groups and nature based groups and firefighter groups that all came together and made a letter to the legislature earlier this year. And they asked the legislature to support this. So there’s groups like Latino Outdoors and there Save the Bay. And then there’s the California Environmental Voters Organization.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Mike Young \u003c/strong>[00:08:56] Climate change, whether you believe it or not, it’s happening. It’s not a belief system. It’s just the science. And sooner or later, we’re going to face those consequences. And many people already are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>[00:09:06] I spoke to Mike Young. He’s a senior political organizing director at California Environmental Voters. He basically really loves this plan because it’s going to help create California, you know, that maybe can withstand droughts and wildfires and sea level rise in the future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Mike Young \u003c/strong>[00:09:19] Lot of times environmental benefits are that people relate to or the ones that they can see the most. Seeing California build out clean energy infrastructure, especially solar and offshore wind is going to be really helpful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:09:32] And who’s coming out against Prop 4?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>[00:09:35] In my reporting, I didn’t find very many groups or people against it. I only found two. There is the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association. They didn’t respond to my emails for comment. They say the bond is a most expensive way for the government to pay for things. Secondly, they say that some of the money could go towards technology that’s like maybe not proven. Third, they think California should like maybe find other ways that don’t and care so much debt for the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sen. Brian Jones \u003c/strong>[00:10:02] The bottom line on Proposition 4 is it is the most expensive way to fund government.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>[00:10:08] And then there’s Senate GOP leader Brian Jones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sen. Brian Jones \u003c/strong>[00:10:11] Many of the items that are being proposed to be paid for in this bond do not rise to the level of being a long term infrastructure project. For example, grants for exhibits and galleries at zoos and museums.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>[00:10:27] He wrote an op-ed in Calmatters. His whole point was that, like, the taxpayers are going to have to pay for this and it’s just too expensive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sen. Brian Jones \u003c/strong>[00:10:35] In my opinion, Proposition 4 pays long term for short term projects and should be rejected by the voters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:10:45] And let’s talk about the money here, Ezra. Who’s funding the support and opposition for Prop four?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>[00:10:53] Well, the people for it, the organizations for it have raised about $700,000. Those are most of those environmental groups that I talked about a little bit earlier. And the opponents from to my knowledge, haven’t raised anything. And I found some new polling from the Public Policy Institute of California that came out recently. And they found that like 65% of voters would likely vote yes for the climate bond and that 3 in 4 likely voters say the outcome of Proposition 4 is very important or somewhat important. And I think it all comes down to like Californians are living through all this. Right? And it’s top of mind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:11:28] At the end of the day as to how much will this bond cost Californians.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>[00:11:34] Yeah. Bonds always mean debt. So repaying the money could cost about $400 million a year for about 40 years. That’s according to the Legislative Analyst’s Office. And altogether, that’s about $16 billion in total.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:11:48] Well, Ezra, thank you so much for breaking down Prop four for us. I appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>[00:11:52] Hey, no problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:11:54] In a nutshell, a yes. Vote on this measure means the state could borrow $10 billion to fund various activities aimed at conserving natural resources, as well as responding to the causes and effects of climate change. A vote no means the state could not borrow $10 billion to fund various conservation and climate change related projects.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:12:25] And that is it for today’s episode of Prop Fest. You can always find our other prop these episodes and share them with your friends at KQED Dawgs Prop Fest. Stay locked in and make sure you’re subscribed so you don’t miss out on the next ones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:12:44] Prop fest is a collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious Podcasts. It is produced by Alan Montecillo, Jessica Kariisa, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Ana De Almeida Amaral, and me, Olivia-Allen Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:12:58] We get extra support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, and Holly Kernan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:13:05] And the whole KQED family. Our show is made in San Francisco at member supported KQED. If you value podcasts like this one, please consider becoming a sustaining member of KQED. Learn more at kqed.org/donate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:13:21] I’m Ericka Cruz Guevara.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:13:22] And I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll be back tomorrow with an explainer on Proposition five, a change in how we approve local bonds. I’m already needing some help with that one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:13:33] And I am right there with you, Olivia. Peace.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/propfest\">Prop Fest\u003c/a> is a collaboration from Bay Curious and The Bay podcasts, where we break down each of the 10 statewide propositions that will be on your November 2024 ballot. Check out \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/voterguide\">KQED’s Voter Guide\u003c/a> for more information on state and local races.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today, KQED climate reporter Ezra David Romero breaks down Proposition 4, a $10 billion bond for climate and environment-related projects across the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"card card--enclosed grey\">\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8420453070&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a transcript of the episode.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] California has got some of the most ambitious climate goals in the country and the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:06] In 2022, the state released the world’s first plan to achieve net zero carbon pollution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:13] But we’re not going to get there overnight or for free.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:17] It’s going to take a radical reimagining of how we live life in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:24] I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:26] And I’m Olivia Allen-Price. And you’re listening to Prop Fest, a collaboration between the Bay and Bay curious where we help you get smart on all the statewide propositions on your ballot this year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:39] Earlier this year, the state legislature passed a $10 billion bond to invest in climate change programs and solutions. And now it needs voters final seal of approval.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:51] And it’s coming to you in the form of proposition for the climate bond.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:56] This proposal to borrow more money for climate change solutions comes at a time when the state made some tough decisions on climate related programs because of a big budget deficit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:01:08] So now it’s up to voters to decide how much of a priority climate change solutions are. By voting to approve or reject this $10 billion bond.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:18] Today, we’re going to break down Proposition 4 for you right after this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:28] Today we’re talking about Proposition four. Here’s how it will read on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Voiceover \u003c/strong>[00:01:33] Prop 4 authorizes 10 billion in general obligation bonds for water, wildfire prevention and protection of communities and lands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:41] We hit up climate reporter Ezra David Romero to break down what this prop will mean for you. Well, Ezra, so we’ve got another bond on the ballot this November. This time voters are being asked to borrow $10 billion for investments in climate change solutions. What is the back story like? How did this get on the ballot in the first place?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>[00:02:04] Yeah. To understand that, we have to go back a couple of years, when environmental lobbyists started lobbying the legislature to like say, look, let’s have a climate bond. Let’s create some big projects that can hopefully protect the state from wildfires and floods and things like that. About two years ago, both sides of the state legislature came up with two different bond measures for about $15 billion each to, you know, combat climate change across California. But at the same time, California was going through this really big, huge budget deficit. Right? And this year, we had about a $46.8 billion budget deficit, which meant that some of these climate programs were also going to get cut. It was really about like, how can we do this? Like really big infrastructure projects that can make sure our future is safe when it comes to wildfires, when it comes to flood, maybe like sea level rise, drought, things like that. And the fight to get this climate bond this year was actually like quite until the end. The two sides of the legislature came together and created one climate bond. And it really wasn’t even in real language until the day before it was due a few months ago. And that’s because a few things like the state only had a certain amount of bonding capacity. How much money the state’s really willing to like go in debt for. And then there were like competing bonds and housing and education. And then also, like climate groups really wanted this thing. But ultimately it happened. And now we have like a $10 billion bond that voters can potentially vote for in November.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:39] Right. And clearly, lawmakers believe that addressing climate change with this bond was important enough. So what exactly was their rationale behind this? How did they talk about that in the state legislature?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>[00:03:53] Yeah, I think it’s really quite simple. We live in a state that has all these climate effects happening right now. Just think of this year, right? We had major wildfires in Southern California just this past month. We had major flooding in Los Angeles, you know, earlier in the year. We had extreme hot days in Sacramento for like a couple of weeks. Right. And then we had the fourth largest fire in California history called the Park Fire near Chico. So we had all these things happening at the same time. We needed to prepare for the future because all these things could get worse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Asm. Damon Connolly \u003c/strong>[00:04:26] People are living the consequences right now in our state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>[00:04:31] I spoke to Damon Connolly. He’s the assemblymember for the San Rafael area. And he basically said, you know, like his area floods, his area burns, and like this climate bond would help protect his region, hopefully from future climate change when it comes to flooding and drought and fires in the future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Asm. Damon Connolly \u003c/strong>[00:04:49] The climate bond proposal will ensure that our investments in climate resilience are bolstered rather than falling by the wayside.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:58] So this climate bond passed in the legislature and now voters will decide whether or not to approve it. And the official name is actually got a lot going on in it. It’s the Safe Drinking Water, Drought Preparedness and Clean Air Bond Act of 2024. It’s got lots of things going in there. Ezra, what would Prop 4 do exactly, though?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>[00:05:24] Yeah, you’re right. It does have like this big name and that’s because it’s this big bond to do many things. And I think to like get Californians across the state to vote for it. It has to do a lot of things. Right, because the climate effects in, say, Southern California aren’t the same in Central California or Northern California or the Bay Area. First, it provides funds for some of those programs that were cut because of the budget cuts, and that’s a smaller amount. And then in a really big way I think the second thing it does is going to be used mostly for these big infrastructure projects like improving levees or the storm water systems that capture water during storms, preparing homes for wildfires and thinning the forests that could burn or preparing for the drought when it comes to like water supplies. A lot of this money is going to go to water and flooding about $3.8 billion, the most money out of the entire bond in one area. One of those areas is water recycling. You know, that’s where our water from, our toilets or our showers, you know, goes into like a water plant. And then it’s like cleaned up in, say, in the San Francisco Bay area. It goes back into the bay. But the idea there is they want to spend $400 million to make these plants into more of a water recycling plant where we reuse that water perhaps for drinking or for our gardens or our lawns and things like that. And that’s really important because in the future, as we have more droughts, like we’re going to have like a smaller water supply.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:56] And we talked about some statewide programs getting cut from the governor’s budget because of this budget deficit that the state is facing. But what kinds of climate programs could actually get restored with the money from this bond?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>[00:07:15] One program really sticks out to me. That’s the Transformative Climate Communities Program. And that’s all about like making sure communities themselves can come up with their own ways to reduce greenhouse gas emissions in their own communities. In the budget, in the in the over the past two years, that program was basically zeroed out. And this bond, if like California voters vote for it like could restore that project to $150 million. And that project has helped communities all over California like Arvin, Stockton, Bakersfield, Pomona, Coachella, San Diego. So it’s really helped communities all across the state. And that funding could come back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:07:55] Yeah, that’s I mean, that’s a huge difference as far as $0 to $150 million for this program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>[00:08:01] Yeah, definitely. You know, it could bring to life this program and allow grants to be given to more communities. Basically, that program cycles a number of grants every year, and this will allow them to potentially give more grants to communities if voters vote for it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:08:19] So, I mean, it seems pretty clear that Democrats in the legislature who who voted for this bond and approved it in the legislature earlier this year are for this bond. But who else is supporting Proposition 4?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>[00:08:35] Well, there’s this really big group of environmental groups and nature based groups and firefighter groups that all came together and made a letter to the legislature earlier this year. And they asked the legislature to support this. So there’s groups like Latino Outdoors and there Save the Bay. And then there’s the California Environmental Voters Organization.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Mike Young \u003c/strong>[00:08:56] Climate change, whether you believe it or not, it’s happening. It’s not a belief system. It’s just the science. And sooner or later, we’re going to face those consequences. And many people already are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>[00:09:06] I spoke to Mike Young. He’s a senior political organizing director at California Environmental Voters. He basically really loves this plan because it’s going to help create California, you know, that maybe can withstand droughts and wildfires and sea level rise in the future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Mike Young \u003c/strong>[00:09:19] Lot of times environmental benefits are that people relate to or the ones that they can see the most. Seeing California build out clean energy infrastructure, especially solar and offshore wind is going to be really helpful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:09:32] And who’s coming out against Prop 4?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>[00:09:35] In my reporting, I didn’t find very many groups or people against it. I only found two. There is the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association. They didn’t respond to my emails for comment. They say the bond is a most expensive way for the government to pay for things. Secondly, they say that some of the money could go towards technology that’s like maybe not proven. Third, they think California should like maybe find other ways that don’t and care so much debt for the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sen. Brian Jones \u003c/strong>[00:10:02] The bottom line on Proposition 4 is it is the most expensive way to fund government.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>[00:10:08] And then there’s Senate GOP leader Brian Jones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sen. Brian Jones \u003c/strong>[00:10:11] Many of the items that are being proposed to be paid for in this bond do not rise to the level of being a long term infrastructure project. For example, grants for exhibits and galleries at zoos and museums.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>[00:10:27] He wrote an op-ed in Calmatters. His whole point was that, like, the taxpayers are going to have to pay for this and it’s just too expensive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Sen. Brian Jones \u003c/strong>[00:10:35] In my opinion, Proposition 4 pays long term for short term projects and should be rejected by the voters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:10:45] And let’s talk about the money here, Ezra. Who’s funding the support and opposition for Prop four?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>[00:10:53] Well, the people for it, the organizations for it have raised about $700,000. Those are most of those environmental groups that I talked about a little bit earlier. And the opponents from to my knowledge, haven’t raised anything. And I found some new polling from the Public Policy Institute of California that came out recently. And they found that like 65% of voters would likely vote yes for the climate bond and that 3 in 4 likely voters say the outcome of Proposition 4 is very important or somewhat important. And I think it all comes down to like Californians are living through all this. Right? And it’s top of mind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:11:28] At the end of the day as to how much will this bond cost Californians.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>[00:11:34] Yeah. Bonds always mean debt. So repaying the money could cost about $400 million a year for about 40 years. That’s according to the Legislative Analyst’s Office. And altogether, that’s about $16 billion in total.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:11:48] Well, Ezra, thank you so much for breaking down Prop four for us. I appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>[00:11:52] Hey, no problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:11:54] In a nutshell, a yes. Vote on this measure means the state could borrow $10 billion to fund various activities aimed at conserving natural resources, as well as responding to the causes and effects of climate change. A vote no means the state could not borrow $10 billion to fund various conservation and climate change related projects.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:12:25] And that is it for today’s episode of Prop Fest. You can always find our other prop these episodes and share them with your friends at KQED Dawgs Prop Fest. Stay locked in and make sure you’re subscribed so you don’t miss out on the next ones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:12:44] Prop fest is a collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious Podcasts. It is produced by Alan Montecillo, Jessica Kariisa, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Ana De Almeida Amaral, and me, Olivia-Allen Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:12:58] We get extra support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, and Holly Kernan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:13:05] And the whole KQED family. Our show is made in San Francisco at member supported KQED. If you value podcasts like this one, please consider becoming a sustaining member of KQED. Learn more at kqed.org/donate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:13:21] I’m Ericka Cruz Guevara.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:13:22] And I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll be back tomorrow with an explainer on Proposition five, a change in how we approve local bonds. I’m already needing some help with that one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:13:33] And I am right there with you, Olivia. Peace.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/propfest\">Prop Fest\u003c/a> is a collaboration from Bay Curious and The Bay podcasts, where we break down each of the 10 statewide propositions that will be on your November 2024 ballot. Check out \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/voterguide\">KQED’s Voter Guide\u003c/a> for more information on state and local races.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode, we’re discussing Prop 3, which would add a constitutional amendment stating that all people have a right to marry regardless of sex or race. It would also strip out language that currently defines marriage as being between a man and woman only. To help us break it down we speak with Scott Shafer, co-host of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/politicalbreakdown\">Political Breakdown\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC9687023038\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a transcript of the episode. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music: Wedding March]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Same-sex marriage has been legal in the United States for nine years…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> …And legal here in California for eleven years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So you might be surprised to know that the California Constitution still says same-sex marriage is banned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Wedding March slows down and stops]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price … Host of Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Host of The Bay. And you’re listening to Prop Fest – A breakdown of ALL the statewide propositions on your ballot this year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Spooky season is just around the corner, and as luck would have it, today we’re going to talk about zombies. Specifically the “zombie law” that bans same-sex marriage in California…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003c/strong>: It’s dead, but it could resurrect!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Californians will vote on Prop 3 to decide if we should take that same-sex marriage ban out of the state constitution and replace it with something that affirms marriage is for everyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guavarra:\u003c/strong> And if I remember correctly, California’s history on same-sex marriage is pretty complicated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Super complicated. Today, we’re going back on the twisty, turny road of same-sex marriage legalization in this state. Because it helps explain why that zombie law is there in the first place. Then we’ll break down what exactly is up for consideration with Prop 3\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guavarra:\u003c/strong> That’s coming up on Prop Fest, a collaboration between The Bay and Bay. Curious. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Today we’re talking about Proposition 3. Here’s how it will read on your ballot…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover:\u003c/strong> Prop 3 is a constitutional right to marriage proposed by the state legislature. It amends the California Constitution to recognize the fundamental right to marry, regardless of sex or race. It also removes language in the California Constitution stating that marriage is only between a man and a woman.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Essentially it overwrites a ban on same-sex marriage that’s currently in California’s constitution. Because same-sex marriage is legal federally, that ban is unenforceable or a zombie law. So let’s start with a history lesson on how exactly we got here with KQED’s Scott Shafer, who is the co-host of Political Breakdown, a daily podcast about California politics. Hey, Scott.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Hey, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So walk us back. When did California voters first weigh in on the issue of same-sex marriage?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> You’d have to go back to around the year 2000. That was when some states began issuing civil unions to same-sex couples. And it was kind of ‘marriage lite’. It wasn’t all the rights, legal rights of marriage that now gay couples and lesbian couples enjoy. But it was a recognition that these relationships were important and that they should be afforded some rights. For example, the right to visit your partner in the hospital, which was not a given in a lot of states. And so states like Vermont and Hawaii and Massachusetts began talking about rights for same-sex couples. And that really concerned a lot of religious conservatives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so in the year 2000, a state senator from Southern California named Pete Knight got a ballot measure on the November ballot, Proposition 22, which changed the family code in the state of California, and said that marriage was only between a man and a woman. That passed pretty easily with about 61% of the vote. And that’s where it stayed until Gavin Newsom got elected mayor in San Francisco in the year 2003. A few weeks after becoming mayor in San Francisco…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gov. Gavin Newsom (archival tape):\u003c/strong> \u003cem>Today, San Francisco took the step to make the case that we believe in the words in the California Constitution, and we took action to implement that.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Gavin Newsom decided he was going to allow the county of San Francisco to begin issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples. And this stunned people. It kind of came out of the blue and within hours, people started flocking to San Francisco City Hall, lining up and taking their vows, taking marriage licenses out from the recorder’s office. And it became a huge national story.\u003cbr>\nIt was pretty widely expected that the courts would shut this down because Newsom really didn’t have any legal right to be doing this. But 4,000 couples lined up over the course of a few weeks to get married at City Hall, and they became known as ‘Newsom twosomes.’ A lot of people sort of assumed that those would not really hold up legally. But it was, you know, a validation of relationships and it really became a huge international story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> But questionable legally, as we soon find out. Right. What happens next?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> So after this went on for a few weeks, there was a lawsuit filed by several parties to stop the marriages and declare them unconstitutional or illegal. And so the marriages were stopped. And a few months later, the California Supreme Court said, ‘You know what? Yes, these marriages are not valid. All the people who got married sorry, folks, you’re not married anymore and you have to stop doing this.’ And that’s where it stood for some time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I can’t imagine being married, and then you wake up one day and find a headline that you’re not anymore. That must have been really tough. But people didn’t give up. You know, they wanted those rights back. So what happens next?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> So there was a lawsuit filed in the state of California in which Proposition 22, which had passed in the year 2000, was challenged as being unconstitutional. And it went to the California Supreme Court. And in May of 2008, the court declared that, in fact, Prop 22 was unconstitutional. And so there was a a kind of euphoria among same-sex marriage supporters on the day that the Supreme Court in California ruled by a 4 to 3 margin, that, yeah, in fact, same-sex couples could legally get married and many did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival clip of couple at San Francisco City Hall:\u003c/strong> \u003cem>We’ve been planning this for a year to actually be able to get married and be a part of this time in history, and time in our history is amazing.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> In that window of time in 2008, some 17,000 same-sex couples rushed to their city halls and county offices to take out marriage licenses and tie the knot. But at the same time, there was a group of religious conservatives, a group called Protect Marriage dot com was collecting the signatures to put on the ballot– a ballot measure that became known as Proposition 8, which declared again, as a constitutional amendment, that marriage in California was between one man and one woman.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So voters by 52% to 48% passed Proposition 8. It was kind of a shock for liberal, what we thought was liberal California, which had easily voted for Barack Obama over John McCain in that very same election, voted more narrowly, but nonetheless to take away the right of same-sex couples to get married. And there was a lot of anger. And there were some very, you know, big protests that broke out across California from LGBT folks and their supporters protesting the vote. But there it was. I mean, it was now the law of the land in California\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News Clips:\u003c/strong> \u003cem>“Shame on you!/Supporters of gay marriage targeted L.A.’s Mormon temple protesting the more than $15 million the church poured into passing proposition 8…/Equal rights! Equal rights!/For the third straight day thousands marched in California protesting the election night passing of Proposition 8, banning same-sex marriage.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> So after all the protests, there was a lawsuit filed in state court to try to overturn Prop 8, saying that it was a violation of the state constitution. But after considering all of the arguments on both sides, the state Supreme Court, which, you know, just like a year earlier had said same-sex marriage was legal, said no. Now the voters have changed the Constitution. And if the voters have done it, then it is in fact, constitutional. So that was, we thought, the end of the road.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> But then things move on to federal court. So we’re leveling up here. Where do we go next?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Not too long after the California Supreme Court upheld Proposition 8, there was an effort to file in federal court very quietly. You know, there was this really small group of people, including the Human Rights Campaign, which is based in Washington. Rob Reiner, the director, who came together and said, ‘why don’t we put our own legal case together? We’ll find some plaintiffs and we’ll file it in federal court in San Francisco and see what’ll happen. Maybe, maybe we can get this legalized that way.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And there was a huge disagreement within the LGBTQ and the legal rights, civil rights communities, because there was a concern that if they filed this in federal court, the outcome was very unclear. And so there was a fear that it would be a setback for the movement ultimately if they didn’t win.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And how does that case make its way through the courts?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Well, you know, these cases are assigned randomly. The backers of same-sex marriage really caught a break because the judge to whom this was assigned was Vaughn Walker. Vaughn Walker, although he was appointed by a Republican president, was known as kind of a Libertarian. He was also known as being gay. He wasn’t particularly open about it, but I think people thought, wow, this guy is a Libertarian. He’s gay and he is going to consider this case. Maybe we do have a chance of getting a favorable ruling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of the things that Vaughn Walker did at the very beginning that surprised everybody is that he called for an actual trial with evidence and witnesses and testimony on the record. And this surprised everybody. And I think in particular, the folks who were supporting the idea of legalizing same-sex marriage were really happy because this gave them a chance to put all of these arguments against same-sex marriage on trial. And a lot of those arguments, as came out during the course of the trial, really weren’t based in fact. They weren’t backed up by any kind of evidence or research. They were really kind of fringy–A lot of them considered homophobic, honestly, that really didn’t hold up under scrutiny.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And how did it go?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Well, it was fascinating. I sat in on the courtroom for those two weeks of testimony here in San Francisco at the federal court building. And there was some very emotional testimony from the plaintiffs. There were a lesbian couple from Berkeley, two gay men from Los Angeles. They talked about the importance of getting married to them, why it was important to them, what it would mean for them to have this very public acknowledgment of their relationship. A historian from Yale testified.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And on the other side, there was a very small number of witnesses, maybe four. And they withered under cross-examination, Their testimony didn’t hold up. Subsequently, actually, some of them changed their minds about same-sex marriage. And so after several months of taking it all into consideration, Judge Vaughn Walker issued his ruling in August of 2010, striking down Prop 8, saying it was in violation of the U.S. Constitution and the equal protection and due process clauses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And with that decision, Prop 8 officially becomes a zombie law in California, still on the books, but it’s not enforceable. But just like supporters of same sex marriage had been, the Prop 8, people weren’t going to give up yet. There’s an appeal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yes. And in fact, Judge Vaughn Walker, although he struck down Prop 8, he put that on hold. He issued a stay. And that gave the supporters of Prop 8 an opportunity to appeal. And so they went to the Ninth Circuit. The appeals court upheld the lower court ruling and then they appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court. And it took until 2013, three years after the initial ruling, striking down Prop 8 for the U.S. Supreme Court to weigh in on same-sex marriage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So what really started as Newsom kind of going rogue and marrying people at San Francisco City Hall has now snowballed into the highest court in the United States, taking up the issue, essentially.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Exactly. And this issue was just a California ballot measure. And it wasn’t a very clean decision, ultimately. The attorneys for the ‘No on Prop 8’ side, they would have liked it if the U.S. Supreme Court said right then and there, ‘Same-sex marriage should be legal throughout the country.’ They didn’t do that. They didn’t issue a decision on the merits. What they said was, ‘You guys who are challenging this law, you don’t have standing, you don’t have legal standing. You’re not really directly affected by Proposition 8. Therefore, we’re going to let the lower court decision stand because you all don’t have a right to be here.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Got it. So same-sex marriage is legal, but only in California and various other states at that point had legalized it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Correct. So it did apply to California. It was back on in California. So same-sex couples could get married, but it did not apply nationwide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So then how do we get to the place where we are today, where it’s legal nationwide?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> So once Proposition 8 was struck down, yes, gay marriage, same-sex marriage was legal here in California, but not nationwide. But then a couple of years later, there was another case brought by a plaintiff named Jim Obergefell. He lived in Ohio and he wanted to get married to his partner. And he made a very similar case to the U.S. Supreme Court based on the 14th Amendment and the due process and equal protection clauses, saying that he should not be barred from getting married just because he’s gay. And in a 5 to 4 decision, the Supreme Court decided that, yes, in fact, same-sex marriage should be legal nationwide. That was a historic ruling and it changed everything. It changed the landscape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So this year we’re voting on Prop 3. How does Prop 3 tie into all this history?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> So the 2013 decision striking down Prop 8 invalidated Prop 8. But, you know, the law was on the books. Technically, it was a zombie law. And there was concern in Sacramento that it could come back to life like a zombie. If, for example, the U.S. Supreme Court, you know, decided for whatever reason, that maybe that Obergefell decision was wrongly decided. We’ve seen that with abortion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That said, Congress did pass legislation sort of enshrining the right to same-sex marriage into law in 2022. So it would be much harder to overturn that now. But in Sacramento, some of the opponents of Prop 8 said, you know what? Let’s just strip this out of the California Constitution once and for all. And so the state legislature, without any dissenting votes in the assembly or the Senate, voted to put Prop 3 on the ballot. That’s what we’re voting on in November. It would replace that language that the voters passed with Prop 8, with language saying that all people have the right to get married and that it’s a part of their fundamental right to enjoy life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> You’ve sort of answered, I think, a part of this, but maybe you won’t elaborate. You know, Prop 8 has been sitting there, you know, in California’s constitution, unenforceable for a decade. Why make this change now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> It is somewhat symbolic on one hand, because, as you say, you know, it can’t be enforced. But I think it’s also kind of a statement that not just getting rid of the old language, but affirming, you know, in a positive way, the right to same-sex marriage, enshrining that in the law. Something similar happened, you know, a couple of years ago with abortion in California. Abortion is legal here. But there was a ballot measure fundamentally enshrining it into the state constitution as a way of really making an emphatic statement that this is a fundamental right that women should have. And I think they also want to send a message maybe to the rest of the country to show how far California has come. So they’re hoping that this ballot measure will pass overwhelmingly. And really just kind of put an exclamation point on this change in attitude and law. You know, that gay couples now can rely on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Now, back in 2008, when Prop 8 was passed, it had a lot of financial support from the Mormon temple and other religious organizations. What does opposition to Prop 3 look like at this point?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Right now, the opponents of Proposition 3 have $0. You know, they have to file financial statements with the state of California. And in the most recent filing, they literally had raised no money whatsoever. The yes side, on the other hand, has raised at least $4 million. And it has widespread political support from Governor Newsom, virtually every statewide elected official, if not everyone. The California Democratic Party, organized labor, the labor federation. There are corporations and just many others who are happy to give money to this cause, to take this anti-gay language out of the state constitution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I don’t want to suggest that, like everyone now supports same-sex marriage because that’s not the case. Even though there were no no votes in the state legislature, there were a number of legislators, mostly Republicans, who just skipped the vote. They didn’t vote at all. It’s hard to say exactly whether they would have been yes or no. My guess is they oppose same-sex marriage, but didn’t really want to put their names to the opposition to Proposition 3.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And there are some groups that still, you know, have put ballot arguments in the voter guide. There’s a group called the California Capital Connection. They have an alliance with independent Baptist ministers and churches to put out a statement. And their statement reads, ‘God instituted marriage and defined it as a union between a man and a woman. And you know that people cannot redefine what God has already defined.’ So there’s definitely still opposition to same-sex marriage. It’s just that the broad public has really shifted in support.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right. Well, Scott Shafer is the co-host of Political Breakdown KQED daily podcast, all about California politics. Scott, before you go, just tell people what can they expect from you on the podcast over the next couple of weeks before Election Day?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> California has a lot of races in play that will either help the Democrats take the House or keep it a Republican majority. It’s going to be an exciting sprint to Election Day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right. Well, thanks for helping us out today, Scott.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yes, happy to do it. Thank you for doing it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> In summary, a vote yes on Prop 3 would take language that defines marriage as between a man and a woman out of California’s constitution. And it adds into the Constitution the right to marry regardless of sex or race.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A vote no on Prop 3 would keep the same-sex marriage ban in California’s constitution. There would be no change in who can marry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s it for Proposition 3. If you’re a new listener, just tuning in for our Prop Fest series, be sure to subscribe to the Bay Curious podcast. Every Thursday we drop episodes that explore listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area. It’s a lot of fun, and we always learn so much – so if you’re digging Prop Fest so far, I think you’ll enjoy our other work too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> Prop Fest is a collaboration between The Bay and Bay Curious podcasts. It is produced by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Ana De Almeda Amaral, Olivia Allen-Price, Alan Montecillo, Jessica Kariisa, and me Ericka Cruz Guevarra.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Extra support from Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan, And the whole KQED family\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> You can find audio and transcripts for this series at KQED.org/PropFest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you value podcasts like this one, please consider becoming a sustaining member of KQED. Learn more at KQED.org/donate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. We’ll be back tomorrow with an explainer on Proposition 4 – the climate change bond.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We’ll see ya then!\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/propfest\">Prop Fest\u003c/a> is a collaboration from Bay Curious and The Bay podcasts, where we break down each of the 10 statewide propositions that will be on your November 2024 ballot. Check out \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/voterguide\">KQED’s Voter Guide\u003c/a> for more information on state and local races.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode, we’re discussing Prop 3, which would add a constitutional amendment stating that all people have a right to marry regardless of sex or race. It would also strip out language that currently defines marriage as being between a man and woman only. To help us break it down we speak with Scott Shafer, co-host of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/politicalbreakdown\">Political Breakdown\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC9687023038\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a transcript of the episode. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music: Wedding March]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Same-sex marriage has been legal in the United States for nine years…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> …And legal here in California for eleven years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So you might be surprised to know that the California Constitution still says same-sex marriage is banned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Wedding March slows down and stops]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price … Host of Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Host of The Bay. And you’re listening to Prop Fest – A breakdown of ALL the statewide propositions on your ballot this year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Spooky season is just around the corner, and as luck would have it, today we’re going to talk about zombies. Specifically the “zombie law” that bans same-sex marriage in California…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003c/strong>: It’s dead, but it could resurrect!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Californians will vote on Prop 3 to decide if we should take that same-sex marriage ban out of the state constitution and replace it with something that affirms marriage is for everyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guavarra:\u003c/strong> And if I remember correctly, California’s history on same-sex marriage is pretty complicated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Super complicated. Today, we’re going back on the twisty, turny road of same-sex marriage legalization in this state. Because it helps explain why that zombie law is there in the first place. Then we’ll break down what exactly is up for consideration with Prop 3\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guavarra:\u003c/strong> That’s coming up on Prop Fest, a collaboration between The Bay and Bay. Curious. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Today we’re talking about Proposition 3. Here’s how it will read on your ballot…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover:\u003c/strong> Prop 3 is a constitutional right to marriage proposed by the state legislature. It amends the California Constitution to recognize the fundamental right to marry, regardless of sex or race. It also removes language in the California Constitution stating that marriage is only between a man and a woman.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Essentially it overwrites a ban on same-sex marriage that’s currently in California’s constitution. Because same-sex marriage is legal federally, that ban is unenforceable or a zombie law. So let’s start with a history lesson on how exactly we got here with KQED’s Scott Shafer, who is the co-host of Political Breakdown, a daily podcast about California politics. Hey, Scott.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Hey, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So walk us back. When did California voters first weigh in on the issue of same-sex marriage?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> You’d have to go back to around the year 2000. That was when some states began issuing civil unions to same-sex couples. And it was kind of ‘marriage lite’. It wasn’t all the rights, legal rights of marriage that now gay couples and lesbian couples enjoy. But it was a recognition that these relationships were important and that they should be afforded some rights. For example, the right to visit your partner in the hospital, which was not a given in a lot of states. And so states like Vermont and Hawaii and Massachusetts began talking about rights for same-sex couples. And that really concerned a lot of religious conservatives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so in the year 2000, a state senator from Southern California named Pete Knight got a ballot measure on the November ballot, Proposition 22, which changed the family code in the state of California, and said that marriage was only between a man and a woman. That passed pretty easily with about 61% of the vote. And that’s where it stayed until Gavin Newsom got elected mayor in San Francisco in the year 2003. A few weeks after becoming mayor in San Francisco…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gov. Gavin Newsom (archival tape):\u003c/strong> \u003cem>Today, San Francisco took the step to make the case that we believe in the words in the California Constitution, and we took action to implement that.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Gavin Newsom decided he was going to allow the county of San Francisco to begin issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples. And this stunned people. It kind of came out of the blue and within hours, people started flocking to San Francisco City Hall, lining up and taking their vows, taking marriage licenses out from the recorder’s office. And it became a huge national story.\u003cbr>\nIt was pretty widely expected that the courts would shut this down because Newsom really didn’t have any legal right to be doing this. But 4,000 couples lined up over the course of a few weeks to get married at City Hall, and they became known as ‘Newsom twosomes.’ A lot of people sort of assumed that those would not really hold up legally. But it was, you know, a validation of relationships and it really became a huge international story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> But questionable legally, as we soon find out. Right. What happens next?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> So after this went on for a few weeks, there was a lawsuit filed by several parties to stop the marriages and declare them unconstitutional or illegal. And so the marriages were stopped. And a few months later, the California Supreme Court said, ‘You know what? Yes, these marriages are not valid. All the people who got married sorry, folks, you’re not married anymore and you have to stop doing this.’ And that’s where it stood for some time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I can’t imagine being married, and then you wake up one day and find a headline that you’re not anymore. That must have been really tough. But people didn’t give up. You know, they wanted those rights back. So what happens next?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> So there was a lawsuit filed in the state of California in which Proposition 22, which had passed in the year 2000, was challenged as being unconstitutional. And it went to the California Supreme Court. And in May of 2008, the court declared that, in fact, Prop 22 was unconstitutional. And so there was a a kind of euphoria among same-sex marriage supporters on the day that the Supreme Court in California ruled by a 4 to 3 margin, that, yeah, in fact, same-sex couples could legally get married and many did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival clip of couple at San Francisco City Hall:\u003c/strong> \u003cem>We’ve been planning this for a year to actually be able to get married and be a part of this time in history, and time in our history is amazing.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> In that window of time in 2008, some 17,000 same-sex couples rushed to their city halls and county offices to take out marriage licenses and tie the knot. But at the same time, there was a group of religious conservatives, a group called Protect Marriage dot com was collecting the signatures to put on the ballot– a ballot measure that became known as Proposition 8, which declared again, as a constitutional amendment, that marriage in California was between one man and one woman.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So voters by 52% to 48% passed Proposition 8. It was kind of a shock for liberal, what we thought was liberal California, which had easily voted for Barack Obama over John McCain in that very same election, voted more narrowly, but nonetheless to take away the right of same-sex couples to get married. And there was a lot of anger. And there were some very, you know, big protests that broke out across California from LGBT folks and their supporters protesting the vote. But there it was. I mean, it was now the law of the land in California\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News Clips:\u003c/strong> \u003cem>“Shame on you!/Supporters of gay marriage targeted L.A.’s Mormon temple protesting the more than $15 million the church poured into passing proposition 8…/Equal rights! Equal rights!/For the third straight day thousands marched in California protesting the election night passing of Proposition 8, banning same-sex marriage.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> So after all the protests, there was a lawsuit filed in state court to try to overturn Prop 8, saying that it was a violation of the state constitution. But after considering all of the arguments on both sides, the state Supreme Court, which, you know, just like a year earlier had said same-sex marriage was legal, said no. Now the voters have changed the Constitution. And if the voters have done it, then it is in fact, constitutional. So that was, we thought, the end of the road.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> But then things move on to federal court. So we’re leveling up here. Where do we go next?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Not too long after the California Supreme Court upheld Proposition 8, there was an effort to file in federal court very quietly. You know, there was this really small group of people, including the Human Rights Campaign, which is based in Washington. Rob Reiner, the director, who came together and said, ‘why don’t we put our own legal case together? We’ll find some plaintiffs and we’ll file it in federal court in San Francisco and see what’ll happen. Maybe, maybe we can get this legalized that way.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And there was a huge disagreement within the LGBTQ and the legal rights, civil rights communities, because there was a concern that if they filed this in federal court, the outcome was very unclear. And so there was a fear that it would be a setback for the movement ultimately if they didn’t win.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And how does that case make its way through the courts?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Well, you know, these cases are assigned randomly. The backers of same-sex marriage really caught a break because the judge to whom this was assigned was Vaughn Walker. Vaughn Walker, although he was appointed by a Republican president, was known as kind of a Libertarian. He was also known as being gay. He wasn’t particularly open about it, but I think people thought, wow, this guy is a Libertarian. He’s gay and he is going to consider this case. Maybe we do have a chance of getting a favorable ruling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of the things that Vaughn Walker did at the very beginning that surprised everybody is that he called for an actual trial with evidence and witnesses and testimony on the record. And this surprised everybody. And I think in particular, the folks who were supporting the idea of legalizing same-sex marriage were really happy because this gave them a chance to put all of these arguments against same-sex marriage on trial. And a lot of those arguments, as came out during the course of the trial, really weren’t based in fact. They weren’t backed up by any kind of evidence or research. They were really kind of fringy–A lot of them considered homophobic, honestly, that really didn’t hold up under scrutiny.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And how did it go?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Well, it was fascinating. I sat in on the courtroom for those two weeks of testimony here in San Francisco at the federal court building. And there was some very emotional testimony from the plaintiffs. There were a lesbian couple from Berkeley, two gay men from Los Angeles. They talked about the importance of getting married to them, why it was important to them, what it would mean for them to have this very public acknowledgment of their relationship. A historian from Yale testified.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And on the other side, there was a very small number of witnesses, maybe four. And they withered under cross-examination, Their testimony didn’t hold up. Subsequently, actually, some of them changed their minds about same-sex marriage. And so after several months of taking it all into consideration, Judge Vaughn Walker issued his ruling in August of 2010, striking down Prop 8, saying it was in violation of the U.S. Constitution and the equal protection and due process clauses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And with that decision, Prop 8 officially becomes a zombie law in California, still on the books, but it’s not enforceable. But just like supporters of same sex marriage had been, the Prop 8, people weren’t going to give up yet. There’s an appeal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yes. And in fact, Judge Vaughn Walker, although he struck down Prop 8, he put that on hold. He issued a stay. And that gave the supporters of Prop 8 an opportunity to appeal. And so they went to the Ninth Circuit. The appeals court upheld the lower court ruling and then they appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court. And it took until 2013, three years after the initial ruling, striking down Prop 8 for the U.S. Supreme Court to weigh in on same-sex marriage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So what really started as Newsom kind of going rogue and marrying people at San Francisco City Hall has now snowballed into the highest court in the United States, taking up the issue, essentially.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Exactly. And this issue was just a California ballot measure. And it wasn’t a very clean decision, ultimately. The attorneys for the ‘No on Prop 8’ side, they would have liked it if the U.S. Supreme Court said right then and there, ‘Same-sex marriage should be legal throughout the country.’ They didn’t do that. They didn’t issue a decision on the merits. What they said was, ‘You guys who are challenging this law, you don’t have standing, you don’t have legal standing. You’re not really directly affected by Proposition 8. Therefore, we’re going to let the lower court decision stand because you all don’t have a right to be here.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Got it. So same-sex marriage is legal, but only in California and various other states at that point had legalized it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Correct. So it did apply to California. It was back on in California. So same-sex couples could get married, but it did not apply nationwide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So then how do we get to the place where we are today, where it’s legal nationwide?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> So once Proposition 8 was struck down, yes, gay marriage, same-sex marriage was legal here in California, but not nationwide. But then a couple of years later, there was another case brought by a plaintiff named Jim Obergefell. He lived in Ohio and he wanted to get married to his partner. And he made a very similar case to the U.S. Supreme Court based on the 14th Amendment and the due process and equal protection clauses, saying that he should not be barred from getting married just because he’s gay. And in a 5 to 4 decision, the Supreme Court decided that, yes, in fact, same-sex marriage should be legal nationwide. That was a historic ruling and it changed everything. It changed the landscape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So this year we’re voting on Prop 3. How does Prop 3 tie into all this history?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> So the 2013 decision striking down Prop 8 invalidated Prop 8. But, you know, the law was on the books. Technically, it was a zombie law. And there was concern in Sacramento that it could come back to life like a zombie. If, for example, the U.S. Supreme Court, you know, decided for whatever reason, that maybe that Obergefell decision was wrongly decided. We’ve seen that with abortion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That said, Congress did pass legislation sort of enshrining the right to same-sex marriage into law in 2022. So it would be much harder to overturn that now. But in Sacramento, some of the opponents of Prop 8 said, you know what? Let’s just strip this out of the California Constitution once and for all. And so the state legislature, without any dissenting votes in the assembly or the Senate, voted to put Prop 3 on the ballot. That’s what we’re voting on in November. It would replace that language that the voters passed with Prop 8, with language saying that all people have the right to get married and that it’s a part of their fundamental right to enjoy life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> You’ve sort of answered, I think, a part of this, but maybe you won’t elaborate. You know, Prop 8 has been sitting there, you know, in California’s constitution, unenforceable for a decade. Why make this change now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> It is somewhat symbolic on one hand, because, as you say, you know, it can’t be enforced. But I think it’s also kind of a statement that not just getting rid of the old language, but affirming, you know, in a positive way, the right to same-sex marriage, enshrining that in the law. Something similar happened, you know, a couple of years ago with abortion in California. Abortion is legal here. But there was a ballot measure fundamentally enshrining it into the state constitution as a way of really making an emphatic statement that this is a fundamental right that women should have. And I think they also want to send a message maybe to the rest of the country to show how far California has come. So they’re hoping that this ballot measure will pass overwhelmingly. And really just kind of put an exclamation point on this change in attitude and law. You know, that gay couples now can rely on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Now, back in 2008, when Prop 8 was passed, it had a lot of financial support from the Mormon temple and other religious organizations. What does opposition to Prop 3 look like at this point?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Right now, the opponents of Proposition 3 have $0. You know, they have to file financial statements with the state of California. And in the most recent filing, they literally had raised no money whatsoever. The yes side, on the other hand, has raised at least $4 million. And it has widespread political support from Governor Newsom, virtually every statewide elected official, if not everyone. The California Democratic Party, organized labor, the labor federation. There are corporations and just many others who are happy to give money to this cause, to take this anti-gay language out of the state constitution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I don’t want to suggest that, like everyone now supports same-sex marriage because that’s not the case. Even though there were no no votes in the state legislature, there were a number of legislators, mostly Republicans, who just skipped the vote. They didn’t vote at all. It’s hard to say exactly whether they would have been yes or no. My guess is they oppose same-sex marriage, but didn’t really want to put their names to the opposition to Proposition 3.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And there are some groups that still, you know, have put ballot arguments in the voter guide. There’s a group called the California Capital Connection. They have an alliance with independent Baptist ministers and churches to put out a statement. And their statement reads, ‘God instituted marriage and defined it as a union between a man and a woman. And you know that people cannot redefine what God has already defined.’ So there’s definitely still opposition to same-sex marriage. It’s just that the broad public has really shifted in support.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right. Well, Scott Shafer is the co-host of Political Breakdown KQED daily podcast, all about California politics. Scott, before you go, just tell people what can they expect from you on the podcast over the next couple of weeks before Election Day?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> California has a lot of races in play that will either help the Democrats take the House or keep it a Republican majority. It’s going to be an exciting sprint to Election Day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right. Well, thanks for helping us out today, Scott.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yes, happy to do it. Thank you for doing it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> In summary, a vote yes on Prop 3 would take language that defines marriage as between a man and a woman out of California’s constitution. And it adds into the Constitution the right to marry regardless of sex or race.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A vote no on Prop 3 would keep the same-sex marriage ban in California’s constitution. There would be no change in who can marry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s it for Proposition 3. If you’re a new listener, just tuning in for our Prop Fest series, be sure to subscribe to the Bay Curious podcast. Every Thursday we drop episodes that explore listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area. It’s a lot of fun, and we always learn so much – so if you’re digging Prop Fest so far, I think you’ll enjoy our other work too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> Prop Fest is a collaboration between The Bay and Bay Curious podcasts. It is produced by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Ana De Almeda Amaral, Olivia Allen-Price, Alan Montecillo, Jessica Kariisa, and me Ericka Cruz Guevarra.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Extra support from Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan, And the whole KQED family\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> You can find audio and transcripts for this series at KQED.org/PropFest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you value podcasts like this one, please consider becoming a sustaining member of KQED. Learn more at KQED.org/donate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. We’ll be back tomorrow with an explainer on Proposition 4 – the climate change bond.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/propfest\">Prop Fest\u003c/a> is a collaboration from Bay Curious and The Bay podcasts, where we break down each of the 10 statewide propositions that will be on your November 2024 ballot. Check out \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/voterguide\">KQED’s Voter Guide\u003c/a> for more information on state and local races.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today we’re discussing Proposition 2, a $10 billion school bond for repair, upgrade and construction of school facilities. Our guest is Daisy Nguyen, KQED’s Early Childhood Education Reporter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8306699730&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a transcript of the episode.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> Let’s say your kid’s school has a leaky roof, or turns out there’s lead in the school water fountains from old pipes. How do you fix it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> [00:00:10] The obvious answer is money. But whether there’s money set aside to make those repairs isn’t always guaranteed in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:00:18] I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> [00:00:21] And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. Welcome to Prop Fest. For the next few weeks. Our teams at The Bay and Bay Curious are bringing you breakdowns of each statewide ballot proposition on the California ballot this year, all to help you vote with confidence this November.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:00:38] Unlike most other states, California doesn’t have a permanent funding source for school repairs, things like broken air conditioners or a leaky roof.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> [00:00:49] Instead, that money comes from state or local bonds passed by voters year to year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:00:55] And that means if your school needs repairs, the money isn’t always guaranteed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> [00:01:01] But this year, California voters have a chance to raise money with Prop 2.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:01:06] In our very first episode of Prop Fest, we’re going to break down everything you need to know about Proposition 2. The school bond measure. That’s coming up right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:01:23] Today we’re talking about Proposition 2. Here’s how it will read on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover:\u003c/strong> [00:01:29] Prop 2 authorizes $10 billion in general obligation bonds for repair, upgrade and construction of facilities at K-through-12 public schools, including charter schools, community colleges and career technical education programs, including for improvement of health and safety conditions and classroom upgrades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:01:51] To understand how this proposition got on the ballot, we hit up KQED’s early childhood education reporter Daisy Nguyen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daisy Nguyen:\u003c/strong> [00:01:59] Thousands of school buildings across California are in poor shape and the state’s school repair fund is almost empty. There was a study by the nonpartisan Public Policy Institute of California that found 38% of students from kindergarten to 12th grade go to schools that don’t meet the minimum facility standards. You may have heard of the recent controversy at Oakland Unified School District.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Newscaster:\u003c/strong> [00:02:31] Oakland School District plans to install more water dispensing stations at campuses after discovering high levels of lead and some water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daisy Nguyen:\u003c/strong> [00:02:39] A routine sampling of water across the school district found that multiple school sites had elevated levels of lead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Newscaster:\u003c/strong> [00:02:47] At last night’s Oakland school board meeting, parents were angry and concerned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daisy Nguyen:\u003c/strong> [00:02:52] That led to schools having to shut off some of their water fountains and replacing water sources with bottles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:03:05] And you’re talking about a range of problems with facilities and buildings at California’s schools. How do schools normally pay for repairs like these?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daisy Nguyen:\u003c/strong> [00:03:18] So unlike many other states, California doesn’t pay for school repairs through a permanent funding stream. The money comes from state and local bonds. Traditionally, the state would match half of a school district’s new construction project and 60% of its renovation projects. And there would be up to local districts to raise funds, usually through a local bond. What winds up happening is that it creates some inequities because wealthier districts can raise more money for repairs through local bonds because their local property values are higher, which means they end up generating more money from local property taxes. Smaller and lower income districts struggle to raise enough bond money to pay for the school repairs. Sometimes they can’t even pass a local bond at all, so they end up relying on state bond money for repairs and maybe not meeting all of their needs. The money from the last successful school bond was passed in 2016, and that’s been spent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:04:28] What does Prop. 2 do exactly?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daisy Nguyen:\u003c/strong> [00:04:32] Prop 2 proposes to raise $10 billion to help fix or improve educational facilities in public schools, including charter schools and community colleges. It proposes to increase the state’s share of the project costs by as much as 5%. And also the state would generally pay a higher share of the costs in those lower resourced school districts, the one with the lower property values. Prop 2 also proposes to provide additional funding to school districts that want to build or renovate transitional kindergarten facilities. As you may know, this study is in the middle of expanding this new grade level for four year olds. But a lot of schools say they don’t have enough classrooms that meet the state standards for TK. Four year old students need to have bathrooms nearby and enough outdoor play area and indoor space to move around because they are going to be the youngest students entering the school system. And Prop 2 would also allow up to $115 million in renovation funds to be used for reducing lead levels in water at public school sites. So directly helping a school district like OUSD resolve its issues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:06:00] And Daisy, how did Prop 2 get on the ballot and who’s putting it forward?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daisy Nguyen:\u003c/strong> [00:06:05] The governor and lawmakers put it on the ballot. They’re saying the money is badly needed to fix the state’s many aging facilities to ensure a safer environment for learning. They say with increasing threats from flooding, heat waves and wildfires, schools really need things like air filters, air conditioners and shade structures to make the schools more climate resilient. And it’s being supported by some major groups like teachers unions, builders, as well as the Association of California School Administrators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daryl Camp:\u003c/strong> [00:06:42] Even though we passed our local bond, there’s still a need for more dollars so we can accelerate our progress.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daisy Nguyen:\u003c/strong> [00:06:49] Dr. Daryl Camp is superintendent of the San Lorenzo Unified School District. It’s a small district in the East Bay between San Leandro, Hayward and Castro Valley. He’s also the incoming president of the Association of California School Administrators. Dr. Daryl Camp talked about some kind of unsexy projects, as he calls it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daryl Camp:\u003c/strong> [00:07:12] Things like the roof. You know, no one realizes something’s wrong with the roof until it rains. Our youngest building is 60 years old. We have some buildings that are, you know, been around for three quarters of a century.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daisy Nguyen:\u003c/strong> [00:07:24] And he also wants to bring in some HVAC systems, meaning heating and ventilation and air conditioning. In his school district, they have some pretty hot days where they’ve had to either cancel class in the middle of the day or not have it at all because it was just too warm to be in the classroom for students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daryl Camp: [\u003c/strong>00:07:46] And just anecdotally, you know, I was in the public schools in Alameda County growing up. We didn’t need air conditioning. When you go into our classrooms now, if we can combine another local bond with the state dollars, we have a greater likelihood that we’ll be able to have all of our classrooms with air conditioning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:08:04] And what about the other side? Who’s against this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daisy Nguyen:\u003c/strong> [00:08:08] The Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association, which is a very prominent taxpayers group in California, are opposed to Prop 2. They say taxpayers will have to pay back that $10 billion bond, plus another $8 billion in interest over the next 35 or so years. They say it’s just irresponsible to borrow money, billions of dollars, to pay for more school buildings when enrollment in the state’s K-12 and community college system is declining.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Shelley:\u003c/strong> [00:08:40] If you keep doing this, you are stealing from the future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daisy Nguyen:\u003c/strong> [00:08:44] Susan Shelley is vice president of communications for the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Shelley:\u003c/strong> [00:08:50] Every future budget has to pay these bond payments with interest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daisy Nguyen:\u003c/strong> [00:08:56] She said that local taxpayers will also have to shoulder a bigger burden through those local bond measures that school districts will have to raise in order to match the state’s state funds. And she says in general that it’s just irresponsible to borrow for projects that could have been paid for if the state had better manage its finances.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Shelley:\u003c/strong> [00:09:19] We know the school buildings are aging. Is that news? Where have they been with all the prior spending? Why did they not address these problems? The government of California should be prioritizing according to the real needs of the people of California. And if they’re not, they should be held accountable and not rewarded with more money.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:09:44] Who’s spending on both sides of this ballot measure. Daisy, what do we know about that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daisy Nguyen:\u003c/strong> [00:09:51] No one is spending money on the no side, but the side that’s spending money to campaign for a yes vote on Prop 2 includes the California Building Industry Association, the Coalition for Adequate School Housing and the School Administrators Association that I mentioned and a couple of other groups. As of now, the yes side has raised $3.6 million. Back in 2020, the school bond was to raise $15 billion. That did not pass. And this time, the governor and lawmakers are hoping voters could stomach a $10 billion bond.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:10:38] Daisy, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daisy Nguyen:\u003c/strong> [00:10:40] Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:10:47] According to polling from the Public Policy Institute of California, 54% of likely voters say they would vote yes on Prop 2, with 44% saying they would vote no. In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 2 gives the state permission to borrow $10 billion to build new or renovate existing public school and community college facilities. A vote no means you do not want the state to borrow $10 billion to renovate school facilities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:11:22] And that is it for our very first episode of Prop Fest. How are we doing? How we feeling? Feeling smarter, Ready to vote? Well, there’s plenty more where that came from. From now until October 4th, the Bay and Bay curious teams here at KQED are going to be dropping breakdowns of each and every one of the statewide propositions on the ballot this year to leave you feeling ready to vote this November. So stay locked in and make sure you’re subscribed to the bay so you don’t miss out on the next ones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> [00:11:55] Prop Fest is a collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious podcasts. It’s produced by Alan Montecillo, Jessica Kariisa, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Ana De Almeida Amaral, and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:12:09] We get extra support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED family. Music Courtesy of Audio Network.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> [00:12:20] You can find audio and transcripts for this series at kqed.org/prop fest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:12:26] Our show is made in San Francisco at member supported KQED. If you value podcasts like this one, please consider becoming a sustaining member of KQED. Learn more at kqed.org/donate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> [00:12:40] I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:12:41] And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. We will be back tomorrow with an explainer on Proposition 3, an amendment to California’s same sex marriage ban.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> [00:12:50] We’ll see you then.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> [00:00:10] The obvious answer is money. But whether there’s money set aside to make those repairs isn’t always guaranteed in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:00:18] I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> [00:00:21] And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. Welcome to Prop Fest. For the next few weeks. Our teams at The Bay and Bay Curious are bringing you breakdowns of each statewide ballot proposition on the California ballot this year, all to help you vote with confidence this November.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:00:38] Unlike most other states, California doesn’t have a permanent funding source for school repairs, things like broken air conditioners or a leaky roof.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> [00:00:49] Instead, that money comes from state or local bonds passed by voters year to year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:00:55] And that means if your school needs repairs, the money isn’t always guaranteed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> [00:01:01] But this year, California voters have a chance to raise money with Prop 2.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:01:06] In our very first episode of Prop Fest, we’re going to break down everything you need to know about Proposition 2. The school bond measure. That’s coming up right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:01:23] Today we’re talking about Proposition 2. Here’s how it will read on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover:\u003c/strong> [00:01:29] Prop 2 authorizes $10 billion in general obligation bonds for repair, upgrade and construction of facilities at K-through-12 public schools, including charter schools, community colleges and career technical education programs, including for improvement of health and safety conditions and classroom upgrades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:01:51] To understand how this proposition got on the ballot, we hit up KQED’s early childhood education reporter Daisy Nguyen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daisy Nguyen:\u003c/strong> [00:01:59] Thousands of school buildings across California are in poor shape and the state’s school repair fund is almost empty. There was a study by the nonpartisan Public Policy Institute of California that found 38% of students from kindergarten to 12th grade go to schools that don’t meet the minimum facility standards. You may have heard of the recent controversy at Oakland Unified School District.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Newscaster:\u003c/strong> [00:02:31] Oakland School District plans to install more water dispensing stations at campuses after discovering high levels of lead and some water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daisy Nguyen:\u003c/strong> [00:02:39] A routine sampling of water across the school district found that multiple school sites had elevated levels of lead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Newscaster:\u003c/strong> [00:02:47] At last night’s Oakland school board meeting, parents were angry and concerned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daisy Nguyen:\u003c/strong> [00:02:52] That led to schools having to shut off some of their water fountains and replacing water sources with bottles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:03:05] And you’re talking about a range of problems with facilities and buildings at California’s schools. How do schools normally pay for repairs like these?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daisy Nguyen:\u003c/strong> [00:03:18] So unlike many other states, California doesn’t pay for school repairs through a permanent funding stream. The money comes from state and local bonds. Traditionally, the state would match half of a school district’s new construction project and 60% of its renovation projects. And there would be up to local districts to raise funds, usually through a local bond. What winds up happening is that it creates some inequities because wealthier districts can raise more money for repairs through local bonds because their local property values are higher, which means they end up generating more money from local property taxes. Smaller and lower income districts struggle to raise enough bond money to pay for the school repairs. Sometimes they can’t even pass a local bond at all, so they end up relying on state bond money for repairs and maybe not meeting all of their needs. The money from the last successful school bond was passed in 2016, and that’s been spent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:04:28] What does Prop. 2 do exactly?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daisy Nguyen:\u003c/strong> [00:04:32] Prop 2 proposes to raise $10 billion to help fix or improve educational facilities in public schools, including charter schools and community colleges. It proposes to increase the state’s share of the project costs by as much as 5%. And also the state would generally pay a higher share of the costs in those lower resourced school districts, the one with the lower property values. Prop 2 also proposes to provide additional funding to school districts that want to build or renovate transitional kindergarten facilities. As you may know, this study is in the middle of expanding this new grade level for four year olds. But a lot of schools say they don’t have enough classrooms that meet the state standards for TK. Four year old students need to have bathrooms nearby and enough outdoor play area and indoor space to move around because they are going to be the youngest students entering the school system. And Prop 2 would also allow up to $115 million in renovation funds to be used for reducing lead levels in water at public school sites. So directly helping a school district like OUSD resolve its issues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:06:00] And Daisy, how did Prop 2 get on the ballot and who’s putting it forward?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daisy Nguyen:\u003c/strong> [00:06:05] The governor and lawmakers put it on the ballot. They’re saying the money is badly needed to fix the state’s many aging facilities to ensure a safer environment for learning. They say with increasing threats from flooding, heat waves and wildfires, schools really need things like air filters, air conditioners and shade structures to make the schools more climate resilient. And it’s being supported by some major groups like teachers unions, builders, as well as the Association of California School Administrators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daryl Camp:\u003c/strong> [00:06:42] Even though we passed our local bond, there’s still a need for more dollars so we can accelerate our progress.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daisy Nguyen:\u003c/strong> [00:06:49] Dr. Daryl Camp is superintendent of the San Lorenzo Unified School District. It’s a small district in the East Bay between San Leandro, Hayward and Castro Valley. He’s also the incoming president of the Association of California School Administrators. Dr. Daryl Camp talked about some kind of unsexy projects, as he calls it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daryl Camp:\u003c/strong> [00:07:12] Things like the roof. You know, no one realizes something’s wrong with the roof until it rains. Our youngest building is 60 years old. We have some buildings that are, you know, been around for three quarters of a century.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daisy Nguyen:\u003c/strong> [00:07:24] And he also wants to bring in some HVAC systems, meaning heating and ventilation and air conditioning. In his school district, they have some pretty hot days where they’ve had to either cancel class in the middle of the day or not have it at all because it was just too warm to be in the classroom for students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daryl Camp: [\u003c/strong>00:07:46] And just anecdotally, you know, I was in the public schools in Alameda County growing up. We didn’t need air conditioning. When you go into our classrooms now, if we can combine another local bond with the state dollars, we have a greater likelihood that we’ll be able to have all of our classrooms with air conditioning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:08:04] And what about the other side? Who’s against this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daisy Nguyen:\u003c/strong> [00:08:08] The Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association, which is a very prominent taxpayers group in California, are opposed to Prop 2. They say taxpayers will have to pay back that $10 billion bond, plus another $8 billion in interest over the next 35 or so years. They say it’s just irresponsible to borrow money, billions of dollars, to pay for more school buildings when enrollment in the state’s K-12 and community college system is declining.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Shelley:\u003c/strong> [00:08:40] If you keep doing this, you are stealing from the future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daisy Nguyen:\u003c/strong> [00:08:44] Susan Shelley is vice president of communications for the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Shelley:\u003c/strong> [00:08:50] Every future budget has to pay these bond payments with interest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daisy Nguyen:\u003c/strong> [00:08:56] She said that local taxpayers will also have to shoulder a bigger burden through those local bond measures that school districts will have to raise in order to match the state’s state funds. And she says in general that it’s just irresponsible to borrow for projects that could have been paid for if the state had better manage its finances.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Shelley:\u003c/strong> [00:09:19] We know the school buildings are aging. Is that news? Where have they been with all the prior spending? Why did they not address these problems? The government of California should be prioritizing according to the real needs of the people of California. And if they’re not, they should be held accountable and not rewarded with more money.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:09:44] Who’s spending on both sides of this ballot measure. Daisy, what do we know about that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daisy Nguyen:\u003c/strong> [00:09:51] No one is spending money on the no side, but the side that’s spending money to campaign for a yes vote on Prop 2 includes the California Building Industry Association, the Coalition for Adequate School Housing and the School Administrators Association that I mentioned and a couple of other groups. As of now, the yes side has raised $3.6 million. Back in 2020, the school bond was to raise $15 billion. That did not pass. And this time, the governor and lawmakers are hoping voters could stomach a $10 billion bond.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:10:38] Daisy, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daisy Nguyen:\u003c/strong> [00:10:40] Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:10:47] According to polling from the Public Policy Institute of California, 54% of likely voters say they would vote yes on Prop 2, with 44% saying they would vote no. In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 2 gives the state permission to borrow $10 billion to build new or renovate existing public school and community college facilities. A vote no means you do not want the state to borrow $10 billion to renovate school facilities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:11:22] And that is it for our very first episode of Prop Fest. How are we doing? How we feeling? Feeling smarter, Ready to vote? Well, there’s plenty more where that came from. From now until October 4th, the Bay and Bay curious teams here at KQED are going to be dropping breakdowns of each and every one of the statewide propositions on the ballot this year to leave you feeling ready to vote this November. So stay locked in and make sure you’re subscribed to the bay so you don’t miss out on the next ones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> [00:11:55] Prop Fest is a collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious podcasts. It’s produced by Alan Montecillo, Jessica Kariisa, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Ana De Almeida Amaral, and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:12:09] We get extra support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED family. Music Courtesy of Audio Network.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> [00:12:20] You can find audio and transcripts for this series at kqed.org/prop fest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:12:26] Our show is made in San Francisco at member supported KQED. If you value podcasts like this one, please consider becoming a sustaining member of KQED. Learn more at kqed.org/donate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> [00:12:40] I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> [00:12:41] And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. We will be back tomorrow with an explainer on Proposition 3, an amendment to California’s same sex marriage ban.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> [00:12:50] We’ll see you then.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[dropcap]A[/dropcap]fter breakfast and coffee every morning, James Bryant heads out the front door. From his home on a hill in San Francisco, he sees the Hunters Point Gantry Crane, what he calls the “West Coast Statue of Liberty.” The metal monolith sits on the edge of the Bay at the old Hunters Point Naval Shipyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is huge, and it’s breathtaking,” said Bryant, who has lived in San Francisco’s Bayview neighborhood for over four decades and is a neighborhood historian. “The gantry crane represents what New York has in their bay, what we have in our bay.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The crane is 450 feet tall and 730 feet long, so big it can be seen from three counties. It weighs as much as the Eiffel Tower. It’s an iconic piece of infrastructure, not unlike the Sutro Tower or the Bay Bridge, but perhaps the more underrated cousin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The crane was used to load ships from the 1940s to the 1970s. For some, it’s a celebrated Bay Area icon worth. There’s even \u003ca href=\"https://www.hunterspointcrane.com/\">a whole fan website for the old crane\u003c/a>, where they sell merchandise and tell some of its history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, the legacy and effect of the crane are much more profound than its metal form.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Olivia Grubert wrote to Bay Curious asking for more information about the crane. So, let’s take a closer look.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The crane’s history\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To understand how the Hunters Point Gantry Crane came to be, we have to go back to the late 1940s when the Cold War started between the United States, the Soviet Union and their respective allies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The U.S. Navy built the crane in 1947 for $2.5 million. At this point, it looked like a giant table from afar. On two sides, the crane loaded massive gun turrets onto warships. Altogether, it could lift more than a million pounds. The goal was to fix and load up ships fast so they could get back to battle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12005067\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12005067\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240917-Hunters-Point-Gantry-Crane-SFPL-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1523\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240917-Hunters-Point-Gantry-Crane-SFPL-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240917-Hunters-Point-Gantry-Crane-SFPL-01-KQED-800x609.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240917-Hunters-Point-Gantry-Crane-SFPL-01-KQED-1020x777.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240917-Hunters-Point-Gantry-Crane-SFPL-01-KQED-160x122.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240917-Hunters-Point-Gantry-Crane-SFPL-01-KQED-1536x1170.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240917-Hunters-Point-Gantry-Crane-SFPL-01-KQED-1920x1462.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Hunters Point Naval Shipyard in San Francisco on June 25, 1953. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The boats would pull in, and they were lifted and loaded,” Bryant said. “The idea was that we’re going to war and need to load these ships right now. These ships were major.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Navy also tested missiles on the crane — Polaris, hydrogen bomb-tipped missiles. At Hunters Point, the Navy initially hurled missiles into the bay and retrieved them after. Later, the military shot them into mid-air, but an apparatus prevented them from flight. In the ’70s, when the Navy wanted to test more potent Poseidon missiles on the crane, they attached a 170-foot arch to strengthen it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the shipyard, the Navy also decontaminated ships after atomic bomb tests and established the Naval Radiological Defense Laboratory. This process contaminated the soil in and around the base with radioactive chemicals, heavy metals and petroleum fuels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Navy base remained active until 1974, and after that, a private company used the property for ship repair for a short period of time. The base was declared one of the nation’s most contaminated sites in 1989. The crane has remained, standing unused for decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12005326\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12005326\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-12-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-12-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-12-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-12-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-12-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-12-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-12-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">the Hunters Point gantry crane at the naval shipyard in San Francisco on Sept. 18, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>A complex legacy\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>While the history of the crane itself is relatively straightforward, its legacy is complex. On one hand, the Navy brought jobs to the Bay Area, much-needed jobs for people who had left the South.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The shipyard employed as many as 18,000 people at its peak, many of whom were Black. They built and serviced ships for wartime efforts. Bryant said they came from the South — places like Alabama, Mississippi and Texas. For many of them, the shipyard jobs allowed them to buy homes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bryant said the crane reminds many people in the Bayview of the prosperity they were afforded by working at the shipyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was prosperity because they got to own a home,” he said. “They got to live in the best weather. You can’t beat the Bayview weather.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the other hand, the Hunters Point Crane is a reminder of another legacy. Radioactive contamination is still in the ground all these years later. The Navy is working on cleaning up the site, and just last year, the Navy \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1985646/radioactive-object-found-at-san-franciscos-hunters-point-naval-shipyard-raises-new-concerns\">unearthed two radioactive objects there\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12005325\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12005325\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-05-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-05-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-05-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-05-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-05-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-05-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-05-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An abandoned building at the Hunters Point Naval Shipyard in San Francisco on Sept. 18, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The Navy did not respond to KQED’s email with a comment. But in the past, the Navy defended its remedies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Community advocates like Bryant have called for a more thorough site cleanup for years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It can be eradicated. If it were on the other side of town, it would have been gone,” said Byrant, who worked for the Navy in the 1970s at the shipyard in public relations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All these years later, Bryant is now 70 and still raves about the crane but is worried about the contamination in the ground beneath it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You can almost hear the buildings talking to you, [saying] there’s history here that no one’s talking about,” he said. “The Navy ships that went in there were loaded with nuclear stuff, which is one of the reasons why it is still sitting there because it was a little contaminated.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>‘Still work to be done’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Someone who knows a lot about this contamination and how it could be hurting the community is Arieann Harrison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Harrison’s mother, Marie Harrison, pushed for the cleanup of the shipyard for decades before passing away in 2019 from lung disease. Harrison took up her mantle in a way and now leads the Marie Harrison Community Foundation, focused on environmental justice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She is \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1979614/for-these-black-bayview-hunters-point-residents-reparations-include-safeguarding-against-rising-toxic-contamination\">advocating for an “absolute cleanup of the shipyard.\u003c/a>” But she believes there’s a “huge chance” the Navy will leave contamination in the ground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Harrison grew up very close to the shipyard and believes over time, she was exposed to radioactive contamination. A local doctor tested her for contaminants and found high levels of a bunch of them — contaminants like lead, manganese, uranium and plutonium.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A scientist told her that her case looks like “that of people serving in the military.” Because of all that new information, she’s worried her health issues are related to the contamination. The doctor who took Harrison’s tests and those of more than 150 others plans to create a registry of their results. She wants to expand testing across the community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12005327\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12005327\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-14-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-14-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-14-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-14-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-14-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-14-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-14-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">James Bryant stands at Hillpoint Park overlooking the Hunters Point gantry crane at the naval shipyard in San Francisco on Sept. 18, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I am still angry, and I am still hopeful for the future,” she said. “I have a lot of a vested interest in making sure that if it’s the last thing I do, things improve.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Harrison wants all the contaminated soil removed from the site. The Navy has removed some of it. Its solutions also include treating or sealing the contaminated soil under a thick layer of asphalt or dirt to contain it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Harrison worries those remedies aren’t enough because scientists expect human-caused climate change to raise sea levels. That could push water up from underneath the toxic site and spread the contamination into the Bay and the community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Unless the Navy removes toxic soil, she believes rising seas will cause the contamination “to seep out into the greater Bay Area.” Over the last year, the Navy announced it found several radioactive objects within the site, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1985646/radioactive-object-found-at-san-franciscos-hunters-point-naval-shipyard-raises-new-concerns\">raising concerns about the efficacy of the cleanup\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, the Navy acknowledged for \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11979473/us-navy-acknowledges-toxic-groundwater-rising-in-bayview-hunters-point\">the first time that potentially toxic groundwater could surface at the shipyard in just over a decade\u003c/a>. The Navy said it’s taken steps to protect against a 100-year storm and three feet of sea-level rise, like extending a seawall and landfill cap.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In June, an environmental justice nonprofit filed \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1993505/cleanup-of-san-francisco-superfund-site-has-been-badly-mishandled-lawsuit-alleges\">a lawsuit alleging “egregious” mishandling of the cleanup of radioactive contamination\u003c/a> at the site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Harrison is apprehensive about the contamination left underground because the city of San Francisco hopes to allow developers to build \u003ca href=\"https://sfocii.org/projects/hunters-point-shipyard-candlestick-point-2/overview\">thousands of homes on the site\u003c/a>. If and when developers build those homes, many people who live in them will have a view of the Hunters Point Crane.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Harrison, the crane is a daily reminder of the contamination left in her community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“To me, [the crane] signifies that there’s still work to be done,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/strong>Every time Olivia Grubert drives over the Bay Bridge from Oakland, she notices this thing perched on the edge of the bay on the south side of the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Grubert:\u003c/strong> You see this massive structure just kind of all by itself. And it seems that no one really knows too much about it. I keep pointing it out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/strong>It turns out that metal monolith has a name. It’s called the Hunters Point Gantry Crane. From a distance, you see the structure looks like an outline of a dining table with four legs and a rectangular top on top of that table on one side. A wide arch reaches up to the sky. And this thing is big. So big it can be seen from at least three counties. Olivia sent us this question:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Grubert: \u003c/strong>I live in Oakland, and I was curious, can you tell us about the massive crane at Hunters Point? How did it used to operate and why is it still around today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/strong>The Hunters Point Gantry crane is 450 feet tall and 730 feet long. It weighs as much as the Eiffel Tower. It’s an iconic piece of infrastructure, not unlike the Sutro Tower or the Bay Bridge, but perhaps the more underrated cousin. What else is there to know? A whole lot. I’m Olivia Allen Price. On today’s episode, we dig into the Crane’s history by talking to San Francisco locals who see the crane as a piece of ingenuity, but also as a reminder of how actions by the U.S. Navy decades ago still haunt San Franciscans today. We’ll get into all of that just after a quick break. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/strong>To help us answer Olivia’s question about the Hunters Point Crane, we’ve got KQED climate reporter Ezra David Romero here. Hey, Ezra.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>Hey, Olivia. Yeah. Whenever I think of the Hunters Point Crane, I always think of those cranes at the Port of Oakland that you can see from the Bay Bridge. I was always told that they inspired the imperial walkers. You know, those like creatures that walk in the snow in the \u003cem>Star Wars\u003c/em> film \u003cem>The Empire Strikes Back\u003c/em>. I personally love that scene where the rebel alliance takes down an imperial walker on the snow planet, Hoth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/strong>But Bay Curious did an episode in 2017 demystifying that idea. George Lucas is on record saying there’s no connection. Sorry, Ezra.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>It may not have inspired George Lucas, but I learned the notion of the crane being related to war isn’t farfetched. James Bryant has lived in the Bayview for more than 40 years. He’s known in the community as a neighborhood historian. I took our question asker Olivia Grubert, to meet him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Bryant: \u003c/strong>This is my house right here. I’m not going to disturb my wife. I’m gonna park here. Watch your step.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>But from his front porch, he sees the old gantry crane off in the distance every single day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Bryant: \u003c/strong>There it is. What a picture. The west coast Statue of Liberty, right here. The Gantry Crane represents what New York has in their bay, we have in our bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>To me and Olivia, from this vantage point, it kind of looks like a futuristic metal space dog guarding San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Bryant: \u003c/strong>It is huge and it’s breathtaking. You ever seen a crane like this anywhere in the world?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Grubert: \u003c/strong>I’m really excited we have this here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>To understand how the Hunters Point Gantry Crane came to be. We have to go back in time to the late 1940s when the Cold War started between the United States, the Soviet Union, and the respective allies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[music]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>The crane was built in 1947 for $2.5 million. At this point, it looked like a giant table from afar. On two sides, the crane loaded massive gun turrets on the warships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Bryant: \u003c/strong>The overhead was being operated on two sides of the columns or the boats pulled in and they were being, you know, lifted, loaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>All together, it could lift over 1 million pounds. The goal was to fix and load up ships fast so they could get back to battle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Bryant: \u003c/strong>The crane was used for loading like four or five ships at once. It was an idea that, you know what, we’re going to war and we need to load these ships like, right now. Because, you know, these ships were major.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>The Navy also tested missiles on the crane, Polaris missiles, which are hydrogen bomb tipped. I wasn’t able to find any archival recordings of a missile test from the Hunters Point Crane. But here’s what one sounded like in 1960 being shot out of a submarine off the Florida coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival Tape: \u003c/strong>The George Washington goes down some 50 to 60 feet below the surface and the time for launching is at hand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>At Hunters Point, the missiles were originally hurled into the bay and then later retrieved. Later they were shot into midair, but an apparatus prevented them from flight. In the 70s, when the Navy wanted to test stronger Poseidon missiles on the crane, they attached a 170 foot arch to strengthen it. Here’s a Poseidon being launched by the Navy off the Florida coast in 1972.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Archival Tape]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>At the shipyard, the Navy decontaminated ships after atomic bomb tests and established the Naval Radiological Defense Laboratory. This process contaminated the soil in and around the base with radioactive chemicals, heavy metals, and petroleum fuels. The Navy base remained active until 1974 and was used by a private company for ship repair after that. The base was declared one of the nation’s most contaminated sites in 1989. The crane has remained unused for decades. While the history of the crane is quite straightforward, its legacy is complex. On one hand, the Navy brought jobs to the Bay Area, much needed jobs for people who had left the South. The shipyard employed as many as 18,000 people at its peak, many of whom were black. They built in-service ships for wartime efforts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Bryant: \u003c/strong>They came up from Alabama, Mississippi, Texas, and, you know, they were looking for some sort of prosperity. And imagine people who went in there, got jobs, ended up being homeowners.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>So, it represented, like, prosperity, like opportunity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Bryant: \u003c/strong>There was two things for people who came up from the south and didn’t have a job. They didn’t have opportunity in those southern states. And it was prosperity because they got to own a home. They got to live in the best weather. You can’t beat this where they can’t beat the Bayview weather, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>But on the other hand, the hunters point crane is a reminder of another legacy. Radioactive contamination is still on the ground all these years later. The Navy is working on cleaning up the site. And just last year, two soil samples unearthed radioactive objects there. The Navy did not respond to my emails for comment. But in the past, the Navy defended its remedies. Community advocates like James have for years called for a more thorough cleanup of the site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Bryant: \u003c/strong>It could be eradicated. If it was on the other side of town, it would have been gone. You know what I mean? If it was a Sea Cliff, there would have never been an issue because the value of the homes and stuff, it should be prosperity again. That should switch Bayview Hunters Point from none to prosperity. It could provide jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>In the late 1970s. James worked for the Navy at the shipyard in public relations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Bryant: \u003c/strong>I said, okay, but there’s something about me that you might know up front. And this was that. I don’t lie. I went along with that project for about two years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>He left that job because he did not agree with a message the Navy wanted to portray about the contamination left at the shipyard. James now owns a public relations firm in the Bayview. All these years later, James is now 70 and still raves about the crane, but is worried about the contamination left in the ground beneath it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Bryant: \u003c/strong>You can almost hear the buildings talk to you. There’s history here that no one is talking about. Somehow the Navy ships that went in there were loaded with the nuclear stuff, which is one of the reasons why it is still sitting there, because it was a little contaminated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>A little contaminated?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Bryant: \u003c/strong>Just a little [laughs]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>Someone who knows a lot about this contamination and how it could be hurting the community is Arieann Harrison. We’re at her office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Arieann Harrison \u003c/strong>How are you? Oh, you look so cute.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>Good to see you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>I met Ariana a few years ago. Her mom, Marie Harrison, pushed for the cleanup of the shipyard for decades before passing away in 2019 from lung disease. Ariana took up her mom’s mantle in a way, and now leads the Marie Harrison Community Foundation, which is focused on environmental justice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Arieann Harrison \u003c/strong>Right now, we’re still at, you know, absolutely clean up of the shipyard. Even though we know that there’s a really big, huge chance they’re not going to take all that stuff off from under the ground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>Erin grew up very close to the shipyard and believes she was exposed to the radioactive contamination. A local doctor tested her for contaminants and found a bunch of them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Arieann Harrison: \u003c/strong>For me to see elevated levels of lead, which we usually see that in low income areas anyway. And manganese and, you know, radioactive isotopes and metals and all that other stuff that’s not good for you. And then to come back positive for PCI 24 — uranium and plutonium. I mean, come on, man, you know. And you have a scientist as saying that your case is that of people that were serving in the military, people that tested positive for this stuff. Come on. What do you do with that information?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>Because of all that new information, she’s worried her health issues are related to the contamination. The doctor who took Ariana’s tests and more than 150 others plans to create a registry of their results. She wants to expand testing across the community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Arieann Harrison \u003c/strong>I remain hopeful. If you want to get yourself to our early grave, you can stay bitter, right? And stay angry. That was affecting my health, too. I am still angry and I know that and is still hopeful at the same time, for the future, you know. I have a lot of a vested interest in making sure if it’s the last thing I do, that things improve.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>Ariana believes a more thorough cleanup is needed. She wants all of the contaminated soil removed from the site, but the Navy has removed some of it. IT solutions also include treating or sealing the contaminated soil under a thick layer of asphalt or dirt to contain it. But she’s also worried those remedies aren’t enough because human caused climate change is expected to raise sea levels. That could push water up from underneath the toxic site and spread the contamination into the bay and the community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Arieann Harrison: \u003c/strong>Later on down the line, a year or two or three from now, because we don’t know what the science is projecting, what sea level rise is going to look like, that this stuff that’s under the ground is definitely going to seep out to the Greater Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>Earlier this year, the Navy acknowledged for the first time that potentially toxic groundwater could surface at the shipyard in just over a decade. They say they’ve taken steps to protect against a 100-year storm and three feet of sea level rise like extending a seawall and a landfill cap. Their findings raise questions about the city’s plan to build thousands of homes here. If and when those homes are built. Many will have a view of the Hunters Point crane. For some, it’s an icon to be celebrated. There’s even a whole fan website for the old crane where they sell merchandise and tell some of the history behind it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Arieann Harrison: \u003c/strong>We know that maybe they want to preserve that, which is fine as long as they, you know, do their best to clean up all the crap that’s around it you know. But to me, it signifies that there’s still work to be done. It’s like when you have war, there’s always a fallout.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>It’s just that Arieann doesn’t want that fallout to any longer be on the shores of San Francisco. And in her case, the crane is a daily reminder of contamination left in her community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Music]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/strong>That was KQED’s Ezra David Romero. Thanks to Olivia Grubert for asking this week’s question. If you’ve got a question you’d like to hear answered on Bay Curious, head to Baycurious.org and ask. Next Monday is the start of Propfest, our podcast series that digs in deep on the propositions on California’s ballot this year. For two weeks, we’ll be dropping a new episode every Monday through Friday, each one covering one of the ten propositions that you’ll be voting on. We hope you’ll tune in so you can vote with confidence on the issues that matter to you. And honestly, the ones that maybe don’t matter to you yet, but you might care more about after you listen. It all kicks off Monday, September 23rd, so be sure you’re subscribed to Bay Curious so you don’t miss a thing. Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member supported KQED. Our show is made by Amanda Font, Christopher Beal, Ana De Almeida Amaral, and me, Olivia Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katrina Schwartz, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan, and the whole KQED family. I’m Olivia Allen Price. We will see you next Monday. Bye!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class=\"utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__dropcapShortcode__dropcap\">A\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>fter breakfast and coffee every morning, James Bryant heads out the front door. From his home on a hill in San Francisco, he sees the Hunters Point Gantry Crane, what he calls the “West Coast Statue of Liberty.” The metal monolith sits on the edge of the Bay at the old Hunters Point Naval Shipyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is huge, and it’s breathtaking,” said Bryant, who has lived in San Francisco’s Bayview neighborhood for over four decades and is a neighborhood historian. “The gantry crane represents what New York has in their bay, what we have in our bay.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The crane is 450 feet tall and 730 feet long, so big it can be seen from three counties. It weighs as much as the Eiffel Tower. It’s an iconic piece of infrastructure, not unlike the Sutro Tower or the Bay Bridge, but perhaps the more underrated cousin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The crane was used to load ships from the 1940s to the 1970s. For some, it’s a celebrated Bay Area icon worth. There’s even \u003ca href=\"https://www.hunterspointcrane.com/\">a whole fan website for the old crane\u003c/a>, where they sell merchandise and tell some of its history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, the legacy and effect of the crane are much more profound than its metal form.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Olivia Grubert wrote to Bay Curious asking for more information about the crane. So, let’s take a closer look.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The crane’s history\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To understand how the Hunters Point Gantry Crane came to be, we have to go back to the late 1940s when the Cold War started between the United States, the Soviet Union and their respective allies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The U.S. Navy built the crane in 1947 for $2.5 million. At this point, it looked like a giant table from afar. On two sides, the crane loaded massive gun turrets onto warships. Altogether, it could lift more than a million pounds. The goal was to fix and load up ships fast so they could get back to battle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12005067\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12005067\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240917-Hunters-Point-Gantry-Crane-SFPL-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1523\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240917-Hunters-Point-Gantry-Crane-SFPL-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240917-Hunters-Point-Gantry-Crane-SFPL-01-KQED-800x609.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240917-Hunters-Point-Gantry-Crane-SFPL-01-KQED-1020x777.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240917-Hunters-Point-Gantry-Crane-SFPL-01-KQED-160x122.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240917-Hunters-Point-Gantry-Crane-SFPL-01-KQED-1536x1170.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240917-Hunters-Point-Gantry-Crane-SFPL-01-KQED-1920x1462.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Hunters Point Naval Shipyard in San Francisco on June 25, 1953. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The boats would pull in, and they were lifted and loaded,” Bryant said. “The idea was that we’re going to war and need to load these ships right now. These ships were major.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Navy also tested missiles on the crane — Polaris, hydrogen bomb-tipped missiles. At Hunters Point, the Navy initially hurled missiles into the bay and retrieved them after. Later, the military shot them into mid-air, but an apparatus prevented them from flight. In the ’70s, when the Navy wanted to test more potent Poseidon missiles on the crane, they attached a 170-foot arch to strengthen it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the shipyard, the Navy also decontaminated ships after atomic bomb tests and established the Naval Radiological Defense Laboratory. This process contaminated the soil in and around the base with radioactive chemicals, heavy metals and petroleum fuels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Navy base remained active until 1974, and after that, a private company used the property for ship repair for a short period of time. The base was declared one of the nation’s most contaminated sites in 1989. The crane has remained, standing unused for decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12005326\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12005326\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-12-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-12-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-12-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-12-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-12-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-12-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-12-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">the Hunters Point gantry crane at the naval shipyard in San Francisco on Sept. 18, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>A complex legacy\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>While the history of the crane itself is relatively straightforward, its legacy is complex. On one hand, the Navy brought jobs to the Bay Area, much-needed jobs for people who had left the South.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The shipyard employed as many as 18,000 people at its peak, many of whom were Black. They built and serviced ships for wartime efforts. Bryant said they came from the South — places like Alabama, Mississippi and Texas. For many of them, the shipyard jobs allowed them to buy homes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bryant said the crane reminds many people in the Bayview of the prosperity they were afforded by working at the shipyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was prosperity because they got to own a home,” he said. “They got to live in the best weather. You can’t beat the Bayview weather.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the other hand, the Hunters Point Crane is a reminder of another legacy. Radioactive contamination is still in the ground all these years later. The Navy is working on cleaning up the site, and just last year, the Navy \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1985646/radioactive-object-found-at-san-franciscos-hunters-point-naval-shipyard-raises-new-concerns\">unearthed two radioactive objects there\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12005325\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12005325\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-05-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-05-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-05-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-05-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-05-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-05-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-05-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An abandoned building at the Hunters Point Naval Shipyard in San Francisco on Sept. 18, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The Navy did not respond to KQED’s email with a comment. But in the past, the Navy defended its remedies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Community advocates like Bryant have called for a more thorough site cleanup for years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It can be eradicated. If it were on the other side of town, it would have been gone,” said Byrant, who worked for the Navy in the 1970s at the shipyard in public relations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All these years later, Bryant is now 70 and still raves about the crane but is worried about the contamination in the ground beneath it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You can almost hear the buildings talking to you, [saying] there’s history here that no one’s talking about,” he said. “The Navy ships that went in there were loaded with nuclear stuff, which is one of the reasons why it is still sitting there because it was a little contaminated.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>‘Still work to be done’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Someone who knows a lot about this contamination and how it could be hurting the community is Arieann Harrison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Harrison’s mother, Marie Harrison, pushed for the cleanup of the shipyard for decades before passing away in 2019 from lung disease. Harrison took up her mantle in a way and now leads the Marie Harrison Community Foundation, focused on environmental justice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She is \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1979614/for-these-black-bayview-hunters-point-residents-reparations-include-safeguarding-against-rising-toxic-contamination\">advocating for an “absolute cleanup of the shipyard.\u003c/a>” But she believes there’s a “huge chance” the Navy will leave contamination in the ground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Harrison grew up very close to the shipyard and believes over time, she was exposed to radioactive contamination. A local doctor tested her for contaminants and found high levels of a bunch of them — contaminants like lead, manganese, uranium and plutonium.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A scientist told her that her case looks like “that of people serving in the military.” Because of all that new information, she’s worried her health issues are related to the contamination. The doctor who took Harrison’s tests and those of more than 150 others plans to create a registry of their results. She wants to expand testing across the community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12005327\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12005327\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-14-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-14-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-14-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-14-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-14-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-14-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240918-HUNTERSPOINTCRANE-14-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">James Bryant stands at Hillpoint Park overlooking the Hunters Point gantry crane at the naval shipyard in San Francisco on Sept. 18, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I am still angry, and I am still hopeful for the future,” she said. “I have a lot of a vested interest in making sure that if it’s the last thing I do, things improve.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Harrison wants all the contaminated soil removed from the site. The Navy has removed some of it. Its solutions also include treating or sealing the contaminated soil under a thick layer of asphalt or dirt to contain it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Harrison worries those remedies aren’t enough because scientists expect human-caused climate change to raise sea levels. That could push water up from underneath the toxic site and spread the contamination into the Bay and the community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Unless the Navy removes toxic soil, she believes rising seas will cause the contamination “to seep out into the greater Bay Area.” Over the last year, the Navy announced it found several radioactive objects within the site, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1985646/radioactive-object-found-at-san-franciscos-hunters-point-naval-shipyard-raises-new-concerns\">raising concerns about the efficacy of the cleanup\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, the Navy acknowledged for \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11979473/us-navy-acknowledges-toxic-groundwater-rising-in-bayview-hunters-point\">the first time that potentially toxic groundwater could surface at the shipyard in just over a decade\u003c/a>. The Navy said it’s taken steps to protect against a 100-year storm and three feet of sea-level rise, like extending a seawall and landfill cap.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In June, an environmental justice nonprofit filed \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1993505/cleanup-of-san-francisco-superfund-site-has-been-badly-mishandled-lawsuit-alleges\">a lawsuit alleging “egregious” mishandling of the cleanup of radioactive contamination\u003c/a> at the site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Harrison is apprehensive about the contamination left underground because the city of San Francisco hopes to allow developers to build \u003ca href=\"https://sfocii.org/projects/hunters-point-shipyard-candlestick-point-2/overview\">thousands of homes on the site\u003c/a>. If and when developers build those homes, many people who live in them will have a view of the Hunters Point Crane.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Harrison, the crane is a daily reminder of the contamination left in her community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“To me, [the crane] signifies that there’s still work to be done,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/strong>Every time Olivia Grubert drives over the Bay Bridge from Oakland, she notices this thing perched on the edge of the bay on the south side of the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Grubert:\u003c/strong> You see this massive structure just kind of all by itself. And it seems that no one really knows too much about it. I keep pointing it out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/strong>It turns out that metal monolith has a name. It’s called the Hunters Point Gantry Crane. From a distance, you see the structure looks like an outline of a dining table with four legs and a rectangular top on top of that table on one side. A wide arch reaches up to the sky. And this thing is big. So big it can be seen from at least three counties. Olivia sent us this question:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Grubert: \u003c/strong>I live in Oakland, and I was curious, can you tell us about the massive crane at Hunters Point? How did it used to operate and why is it still around today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/strong>The Hunters Point Gantry crane is 450 feet tall and 730 feet long. It weighs as much as the Eiffel Tower. It’s an iconic piece of infrastructure, not unlike the Sutro Tower or the Bay Bridge, but perhaps the more underrated cousin. What else is there to know? A whole lot. I’m Olivia Allen Price. On today’s episode, we dig into the Crane’s history by talking to San Francisco locals who see the crane as a piece of ingenuity, but also as a reminder of how actions by the U.S. Navy decades ago still haunt San Franciscans today. We’ll get into all of that just after a quick break. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/strong>To help us answer Olivia’s question about the Hunters Point Crane, we’ve got KQED climate reporter Ezra David Romero here. Hey, Ezra.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>Hey, Olivia. Yeah. Whenever I think of the Hunters Point Crane, I always think of those cranes at the Port of Oakland that you can see from the Bay Bridge. I was always told that they inspired the imperial walkers. You know, those like creatures that walk in the snow in the \u003cem>Star Wars\u003c/em> film \u003cem>The Empire Strikes Back\u003c/em>. I personally love that scene where the rebel alliance takes down an imperial walker on the snow planet, Hoth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/strong>But Bay Curious did an episode in 2017 demystifying that idea. George Lucas is on record saying there’s no connection. Sorry, Ezra.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>It may not have inspired George Lucas, but I learned the notion of the crane being related to war isn’t farfetched. James Bryant has lived in the Bayview for more than 40 years. He’s known in the community as a neighborhood historian. I took our question asker Olivia Grubert, to meet him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Bryant: \u003c/strong>This is my house right here. I’m not going to disturb my wife. I’m gonna park here. Watch your step.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>But from his front porch, he sees the old gantry crane off in the distance every single day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Bryant: \u003c/strong>There it is. What a picture. The west coast Statue of Liberty, right here. The Gantry Crane represents what New York has in their bay, we have in our bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>To me and Olivia, from this vantage point, it kind of looks like a futuristic metal space dog guarding San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Bryant: \u003c/strong>It is huge and it’s breathtaking. You ever seen a crane like this anywhere in the world?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Grubert: \u003c/strong>I’m really excited we have this here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>To understand how the Hunters Point Gantry Crane came to be. We have to go back in time to the late 1940s when the Cold War started between the United States, the Soviet Union, and the respective allies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[music]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>The crane was built in 1947 for $2.5 million. At this point, it looked like a giant table from afar. On two sides, the crane loaded massive gun turrets on the warships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Bryant: \u003c/strong>The overhead was being operated on two sides of the columns or the boats pulled in and they were being, you know, lifted, loaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>All together, it could lift over 1 million pounds. The goal was to fix and load up ships fast so they could get back to battle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Bryant: \u003c/strong>The crane was used for loading like four or five ships at once. It was an idea that, you know what, we’re going to war and we need to load these ships like, right now. Because, you know, these ships were major.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>The Navy also tested missiles on the crane, Polaris missiles, which are hydrogen bomb tipped. I wasn’t able to find any archival recordings of a missile test from the Hunters Point Crane. But here’s what one sounded like in 1960 being shot out of a submarine off the Florida coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival Tape: \u003c/strong>The George Washington goes down some 50 to 60 feet below the surface and the time for launching is at hand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>At Hunters Point, the missiles were originally hurled into the bay and then later retrieved. Later they were shot into midair, but an apparatus prevented them from flight. In the 70s, when the Navy wanted to test stronger Poseidon missiles on the crane, they attached a 170 foot arch to strengthen it. Here’s a Poseidon being launched by the Navy off the Florida coast in 1972.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Archival Tape]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>At the shipyard, the Navy decontaminated ships after atomic bomb tests and established the Naval Radiological Defense Laboratory. This process contaminated the soil in and around the base with radioactive chemicals, heavy metals, and petroleum fuels. The Navy base remained active until 1974 and was used by a private company for ship repair after that. The base was declared one of the nation’s most contaminated sites in 1989. The crane has remained unused for decades. While the history of the crane is quite straightforward, its legacy is complex. On one hand, the Navy brought jobs to the Bay Area, much needed jobs for people who had left the South. The shipyard employed as many as 18,000 people at its peak, many of whom were black. They built in-service ships for wartime efforts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Bryant: \u003c/strong>They came up from Alabama, Mississippi, Texas, and, you know, they were looking for some sort of prosperity. And imagine people who went in there, got jobs, ended up being homeowners.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>So, it represented, like, prosperity, like opportunity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Bryant: \u003c/strong>There was two things for people who came up from the south and didn’t have a job. They didn’t have opportunity in those southern states. And it was prosperity because they got to own a home. They got to live in the best weather. You can’t beat this where they can’t beat the Bayview weather, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>But on the other hand, the hunters point crane is a reminder of another legacy. Radioactive contamination is still on the ground all these years later. The Navy is working on cleaning up the site. And just last year, two soil samples unearthed radioactive objects there. The Navy did not respond to my emails for comment. But in the past, the Navy defended its remedies. Community advocates like James have for years called for a more thorough cleanup of the site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Bryant: \u003c/strong>It could be eradicated. If it was on the other side of town, it would have been gone. You know what I mean? If it was a Sea Cliff, there would have never been an issue because the value of the homes and stuff, it should be prosperity again. That should switch Bayview Hunters Point from none to prosperity. It could provide jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>In the late 1970s. James worked for the Navy at the shipyard in public relations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Bryant: \u003c/strong>I said, okay, but there’s something about me that you might know up front. And this was that. I don’t lie. I went along with that project for about two years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>He left that job because he did not agree with a message the Navy wanted to portray about the contamination left at the shipyard. James now owns a public relations firm in the Bayview. All these years later, James is now 70 and still raves about the crane, but is worried about the contamination left in the ground beneath it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Bryant: \u003c/strong>You can almost hear the buildings talk to you. There’s history here that no one is talking about. Somehow the Navy ships that went in there were loaded with the nuclear stuff, which is one of the reasons why it is still sitting there, because it was a little contaminated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>A little contaminated?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Bryant: \u003c/strong>Just a little [laughs]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>Someone who knows a lot about this contamination and how it could be hurting the community is Arieann Harrison. We’re at her office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Arieann Harrison \u003c/strong>How are you? Oh, you look so cute.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>Good to see you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>I met Ariana a few years ago. Her mom, Marie Harrison, pushed for the cleanup of the shipyard for decades before passing away in 2019 from lung disease. Ariana took up her mom’s mantle in a way, and now leads the Marie Harrison Community Foundation, which is focused on environmental justice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Arieann Harrison \u003c/strong>Right now, we’re still at, you know, absolutely clean up of the shipyard. Even though we know that there’s a really big, huge chance they’re not going to take all that stuff off from under the ground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>Erin grew up very close to the shipyard and believes she was exposed to the radioactive contamination. A local doctor tested her for contaminants and found a bunch of them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Arieann Harrison: \u003c/strong>For me to see elevated levels of lead, which we usually see that in low income areas anyway. And manganese and, you know, radioactive isotopes and metals and all that other stuff that’s not good for you. And then to come back positive for PCI 24 — uranium and plutonium. I mean, come on, man, you know. And you have a scientist as saying that your case is that of people that were serving in the military, people that tested positive for this stuff. Come on. What do you do with that information?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>Because of all that new information, she’s worried her health issues are related to the contamination. The doctor who took Ariana’s tests and more than 150 others plans to create a registry of their results. She wants to expand testing across the community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Arieann Harrison \u003c/strong>I remain hopeful. If you want to get yourself to our early grave, you can stay bitter, right? And stay angry. That was affecting my health, too. I am still angry and I know that and is still hopeful at the same time, for the future, you know. I have a lot of a vested interest in making sure if it’s the last thing I do, that things improve.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>Ariana believes a more thorough cleanup is needed. She wants all of the contaminated soil removed from the site, but the Navy has removed some of it. IT solutions also include treating or sealing the contaminated soil under a thick layer of asphalt or dirt to contain it. But she’s also worried those remedies aren’t enough because human caused climate change is expected to raise sea levels. That could push water up from underneath the toxic site and spread the contamination into the bay and the community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Arieann Harrison: \u003c/strong>Later on down the line, a year or two or three from now, because we don’t know what the science is projecting, what sea level rise is going to look like, that this stuff that’s under the ground is definitely going to seep out to the Greater Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>Earlier this year, the Navy acknowledged for the first time that potentially toxic groundwater could surface at the shipyard in just over a decade. They say they’ve taken steps to protect against a 100-year storm and three feet of sea level rise like extending a seawall and a landfill cap. Their findings raise questions about the city’s plan to build thousands of homes here. If and when those homes are built. Many will have a view of the Hunters Point crane. For some, it’s an icon to be celebrated. There’s even a whole fan website for the old crane where they sell merchandise and tell some of the history behind it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Arieann Harrison: \u003c/strong>We know that maybe they want to preserve that, which is fine as long as they, you know, do their best to clean up all the crap that’s around it you know. But to me, it signifies that there’s still work to be done. It’s like when you have war, there’s always a fallout.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero: \u003c/strong>It’s just that Arieann doesn’t want that fallout to any longer be on the shores of San Francisco. And in her case, the crane is a daily reminder of contamination left in her community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Music]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/strong>That was KQED’s Ezra David Romero. Thanks to Olivia Grubert for asking this week’s question. If you’ve got a question you’d like to hear answered on Bay Curious, head to Baycurious.org and ask. Next Monday is the start of Propfest, our podcast series that digs in deep on the propositions on California’s ballot this year. For two weeks, we’ll be dropping a new episode every Monday through Friday, each one covering one of the ten propositions that you’ll be voting on. We hope you’ll tune in so you can vote with confidence on the issues that matter to you. And honestly, the ones that maybe don’t matter to you yet, but you might care more about after you listen. It all kicks off Monday, September 23rd, so be sure you’re subscribed to Bay Curious so you don’t miss a thing. Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member supported KQED. Our show is made by Amanda Font, Christopher Beal, Ana De Almeida Amaral, and me, Olivia Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katrina Schwartz, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan, and the whole KQED family. I’m Olivia Allen Price. We will see you next Monday. Bye!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Does Mount Diablo Have the Biggest View in the World?",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>Read a transcript of this episode.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was originally published March 26, 2020. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mount Diablo is one of the Bay Area’s grandest landmarks and often the first glimpse of home you might see after a long drive. The mountain sits on the eastern edge of the Bay Area, in Contra Costa County, and its peak is visible from most spots around the Bay. At 3,849 feet, Mount Diablo stands apart from other mountains nearby, not just because of its prominence, but because of the legends that surround it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Years ago, listener Mark Isaak heard a rumor about the view from Mount Diablo’s summit: “I’ve heard that the spot on the earth from which you can see the most land — not just ocean, but actual land — is the summit of Mount Kilimanjaro. But that the summit of Mount Diablo comes in second. Is that true?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Taking in the View\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“The view when you come up here is really amazing,” says Sharon Peterson, Mount Diablo State Park’s interpreter. “How it compares to Kilimanjaro is up for debate, but I’m partial to the view from Mount Diablo, and I think most people are pretty amazed by it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the Mount Diablo Summit Museum and trailhead viewing deck, Peterson says that 40 of California’s 58 counties are visible on a clear day. As little as 1% of some counties can be seen, but still, it’s an impressive tally.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11808512\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11808512\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Sharon-Peterson-800x585.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"585\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Sharon-Peterson-800x585.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Sharon-Peterson-160x117.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Sharon-Peterson-1020x746.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Sharon-Peterson-1920x1404.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sharon Peterson, Mount Diablo State Park’s interpreter, gets to marvel at Mount Diablo’s view regularly. \u003ccite>(Asal Ehsanipour/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“You can see the Golden Gate Bridge today,” says Peterson, pointing west. “You could see both towers with the naked eye. And if I give you the binoculars, you can see it for sure.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Turning north, Peterson points out the Sacramento and San Joaquin rivers merging to form the California Delta. South, she describes a sweeping view of the Diablo Range and Livermore/Pleasanton. Finally we look east, where through the haze we catch a glimpse of the snow-capped Sierra over 100 miles away, rising above the Central Valley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On a clear day you can see Yosemite.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“With binoculars you can see Sentinel Dome. There is a rumor that persists that you can see Half Dome, but it’s blocked by one of the land features in between,” Peterson says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite the view’s magnificence, Seth Adams, land conservation director for Save Mount Diablo, is adamant that the Mount Kilimanjaro myth has no merit: “It’s absolutely not true that Mount Diablo has the largest view in the world except for Mount Kilimanjaro,” he says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Adams has spent a lot of time myth busting the Kilimanjaro claim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11808538\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 160px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11808538 size-thumbnail\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/2017-Seth-Morgan-Territory-Open-Roads-4-11-2017-160x224.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"160\" height=\"224\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/2017-Seth-Morgan-Territory-Open-Roads-4-11-2017-160x224.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/2017-Seth-Morgan-Territory-Open-Roads-4-11-2017-800x1120.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/2017-Seth-Morgan-Territory-Open-Roads-4-11-2017-1020x1428.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/2017-Seth-Morgan-Territory-Open-Roads-4-11-2017.jpg 1241w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 160px) 100vw, 160px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Seth Adams, land conservation director at Save Mount Diablo, has dug into the history of the oft-repeated viewshed claim. \u003ccite>(Asal Ehsanipour/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I never quite believed it,” he says. “It just didn’t have the ring of truth to me because it’s a small mountain. Common sense would tell you the taller the mountain, the bigger the view.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Considering the myth has been repeated countless times, he says it makes sense people would believe it. Adams traced the myth back to the 1850s and ’60s, when geologists like Josiah Whitney first surveyed the mountain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Whitney wrote, “It is believed that there are few, if any, points on the earth’s surface from which so extensive an area may be seen as from Mount Diablo. The whole area thus spread out, can hardly be less than 40,000 square miles.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The legend snowballed from there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Botanist William Brewer, who visited the mountain in the 1860s, wrote, “The view was one never to be forgotten. […] Few views in North America are more extensive — certainly nothing in Europe.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>An article published in the Contra Costa Gazette on April 18, 1874, said that the view from the summit “[showed] more of the earth’s kingdom than is visible from any other known spot on the globe.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11808685\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11808685 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Burgess-map-Picture1-800x449.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"449\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Burgess-map-Picture1-800x449.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Burgess-map-Picture1-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Burgess-map-Picture1-1020x572.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Burgess-map-Picture1.jpg 1437w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A brochure printed by entrepreneur Robert Noble Burgess, who purchased the summit of Mount Diablo in 1912. Burgess’ brochures helped popularized the claim that Mount Diablo had the greatest view in the world. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Save Mount Diablo)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The claim about Mount Diablo’s view was repeated for decades, through the end of World War II, when recreation at parks and mountains picked up popularity. Mount Diablo became a go-to tourist spot as the Kilimanjaro claim circulated in travel guides and hiking maps, by railroad companies and auto associations. Even the Contra Costa Development Association published materials in the 1940s describing the mountain as “the world’s greatest view! More territory visible than from any point in the world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As visitors flocked to Mount Diablo for the views, entrepreneurs saw a chance to make a buck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“More than half of Mount Diablo was locked up successively by two big real estate land speculators named Robert Noble Burgess and Walter P. Frick,” Adams says. “Both of them printed brochures by the thousands that included the claim of Mount Diablo having the largest view in the world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11808683\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 300px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11808683\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Frick-brochure-Picture1-1020x1548.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"300\" height=\"455\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Frick-brochure-Picture1-1020x1548.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Frick-brochure-Picture1-160x243.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Frick-brochure-Picture1-800x1214.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Frick-brochure-Picture1.jpg 1471w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 300px) 100vw, 300px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The entrepreneur Walter P. Frick originally printed brochures claiming that “from the summit of Mount Diablo, a larger area of land and water is visible than from any other point in the world.” He later changed this claim to reflect that the view comes second to Mount Kilimanjaro. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Save Mount Diablo)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Boasting that claim was a smart business move for Burgess, who had bought a portion of the mountain in 1912 and subsequently built the Mount Diablo Scenic Boulevard taking visitors to the summit. In 1917, he had a dream of building thousands of homes on the mountain’s western flank, and those amazing views helped push his agenda forward. Burgess eventually went bankrupt and the deal flopped, but the brochures had done their work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You can definitely credit the brochures for spreading the misinformation, but it’s just too good to claim the largest view in the world,” Adams explains. “And understand that California was a promoter’s dream.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Which brings us to another promoter, the Oakland entrepreneur Walter P. Frick. Initially Frick, who had been Burgess’ business partner, hired a publicist to help him spread the rumor that Mount Diablo’s view was the greatest on earth, which came in handy as he built an 8-foot beacon tower known as the Eye of Diablo. However, the engineers Frick worked with at Standard Oil Company were skeptical of the claim’s validity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The 1928 Standard Oil Bulletin subsequently added a footnote to their brochure promoting the view as the world’s grandest, “Except for a point in Africa.” The reference to Mount Kilimanjaro was clear.\u003cbr>\nFrom there, the legend shifted from Mount Diablo having the largest view in the world to the second largest. That new myth persisted until 1994, when engineer and mountaineer Edward “7.389056099” Earl mathematically debunked the theory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Using topographical atlases and aeronautical charts, Earl set out to determine the viewshed from the summit of Mount Diablo compared to others in North America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A viewshed is the area visible from a specific vantage point, including land or water. According to Earl’s calculations, Mount Diablo’s viewshed is between 13,000 and 21,000 square miles. That might sound like a lot, but Earl concluded that from other, taller North American mountains, it’s possible to see over three times as much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With a 19,341-foot elevation, Mount Kilimanjaro soars five times as high as Mount Diablo. In practical terms, a mountain as small as Mount Diablo couldn’t possibly have a greater viewshed than Mount Kilimanjaro — even if it is an isolated peak.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He conclusively showed the Mount Diablo viewshed claim was bogus,” says Adams with a laugh. “But it doesn’t really matter because the claim had already done its work. Mount Diablo became famous. It became beloved. And as I said, Mount Diablo may not have the largest view in the world, but it certainly has the most extraordinary view in the world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Luckily for visitors, extraordinary can’t be measured with math.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> When it comes to size – Mount Diablo is the Bay Area’s grandest landmark. It’s often the first glimpse of home you’ll see after a long drive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It stands apart from other mountains nearby, not just because of its prominence, but because of the legends that surround it. The Bay Miwok tribe believe the mountain is sacred — that it is the central point of the world’s creation, where man was made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But it’s a different story that caught the attention of listener Mark Isaak.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Isaak:\u003c/strong> I’ve heard that the spot on the earth from which you can see the most land – not just ocean, but actual land – is the summit of Mount Kilimanjaro, but that the summit of Mount Diablo comes in second. Is that true?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Mark heard this legend so long ago, he can’t remember where it came from. But he’s not alone. Lots of you have heard this story. And it does seem possible. Mount Diablo is an isolated peak, it’s a lot taller than everything else around it. So even though there are lots of taller mountains, they might not have as big of a view because other mountains get in the way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>From the top of Diablo you can see from the Pacific Ocean, all the way across the state to the Sierra. But second biggest view in the world … really?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today we’re going to find out if Mount Diablo’s view deserves so remarkable an accolade, and explore the story behind the legend. This story first aired in 2020. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> OK, so we set out to learn if Mount Diablo is in fact numero dos on the list of places on earth where you can see the most land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reporter Asal Ehsanipour takes a winding road to find out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[driving sounds]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> The mystery of the view from Mount Diablo is a romantic one – steeped in local legend. To find out if it’s true, I drove to the source itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[GPS: “IN 600 FEET…”]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> From the base of the mountain, it takes me about an hour to get to the top.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[car door shuts, locks]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour (outside)\u003c/strong>: Wow, that took so long.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Asal Ehsanipour: Mount Diablo sits on the Eastern Edge of the Bay Area – in Contra Costa County. But you can see its double peak pyramid from most spots around the Bay. At 3,849 feet, the mountain’s view is second to none. Well, it’s second to one… maybe. We’ll find out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sharon Peterson:\u003c/strong> So the view when you come up here is really amazing. How it compares to Kilimanjaro is up for debate. But I’m kind of partial to the view here from Mount Diablo and I think most people that come are pretty amazed by what the view looks like.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> My tour guide today is Sharon Peterson, Mount Diablo State Park’s interpreter – which, she says, means her job is to tell the story of the park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[footsteps on a trail]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Sharon takes me to the summit’s viewing deck. She says that on a clear day, you can see 40 of California’s 58 counties from here. As little as 1% of some. But still.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sharon Peterson:\u003c/strong> This is where we walk out into the wind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> First, she points west.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sharon Peterson:\u003c/strong> So you can see the Golden Gate Bridge today. You could see both towers with the naked eye. And if I give you the binoculars, you can probably see it for sure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> She whips them out and there it is. The Golden Gate Bridge, 60 31 miles away. Two towers peeking over Round Top in the Berkeley Hills.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour (outside):\u003c/strong> Wow, that’s really cool!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Then, we turn North. And you can see the Sacramento and San Juaquin rivers forming the Delta.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>South, it’s a sweeping view of the Diablo Range and Livermore – Pleasanton.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And finally, East. Where through the haze we catch a glimpse of the snow-speckled Sierras rising above the Central Valley – over a hundred miles away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour (outside):\u003c/strong> And I heard that you can also see Yosemite from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sharon Peterson:\u003c/strong> On a clear day you can. And with binoculars you can see Sentinel Dome. There is a rumor that you can see Half Dome, but it’s actually blocked by one of the land features in between here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Seeing it for myself, the site is so magnificent, so magical, that it feels like I’m looking down at a watercolor. The only thing that compares is the view from a plane. Maybe it’s possible the myth is true?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> It’s absolutely not true that Mt. Diablo has the largest view in the world except for Mount Kilimanjaro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Seth Adams is the Land Conservation Director at Save Mount Diablo. And he’s spent a lot of time mythbusting the Kilimanjaro claim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> I never quite believed it. It just didn’t have the ring of truth to me because it’s a small mountain and common sense would tell you the taller the mountain, the bigger the view.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> But considering the myth has been repeated hundreds of times, he says it makes sense people would believe it. Seth traced the infatuation with Diablo back to the 1850s and 60s – when scientists like Josiah [Hosiah] Whitney first geologically surveyed the mountain. That’s Josiah Whitney of Mount Whitney – the tallest mountain in the Sierra Nevada.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> Josiah Whitney wrote, “It is believed that there are few, if any, points on the earth’s surface from which so extensive an area may be seen as from Mt. Diablo. The whole area thus spread out, can hardly be less than 40,000 square miles.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> The legend snowballed from there. Repeated over and over for decades – through the end of World War II. A time when people started experiencing parks and mountains recreationally – and Mount Diablo became a go-to tourist spot. The Kilimanjaro claim circulated in travel guides and hiking maps. By railroad companies and auto associations. Even Contra Costa County described it as quote: “the world’s greatest view! More territory visible than from any point in the world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> But as visitors flocked to Diablo for the views, entrepreneurs saw a chance to make a buck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> More than half of Mount Diablo was locked up successively by two big real estate land speculators. Both of them printed brochures by the thousands that included the claim of Mt. Diablo having the largest view in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Boasting that claim was a smart business move for one developer. In 1917, he had a dream of building thousands of homes on Diablo’s western flank, and those amazing views helped push forward his agenda. Eventually the developer went bankrupt and the deal flopped. But, it was too late. The brochures had done their work…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> Oh you can definitely credit the brochures with spreading the misinformation. It’s just too good to claim the largest view in the world, right. And understand that California was a promoter’s dream.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Which brings us to another promoter… the entrepreneur Walter P. Frick, who hired a publicist to help him spread the rumor that Mount Diablo had the greatest view on earth. Especially as he built an 8 foot beacon tower known as the Eye of Diablo. But Frick was working with engineers from the Standard Oil Company… and they were skeptical.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> Someone for the first time said, “come on, biggest view in the entire world?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> So after that – the 1928 Standard Oil Bulletin added a footnote to their brochure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> “Except for a point in Africa.” Clearly being Mount Kilimanjaro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> From there, the legend shifted from Mount Diablo having the largest view in the world, to the second largest. It went on like this until 1994 – when it was officially debunked by an engineer slash mountaineer who did the math. His name was Edward Earl, but he went by the nickname “7.389056099.” …Math joke.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> He said ‘I don’t believe this. And so what I’m gonna do is I’m going to define the problem and I’m gonna calculate view sheds for lots of other mountains and see how they compare.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Viewshed is “the area visible from a specific vantage point” including land or water. Now remember, Whitney speculated Diablo’s viewshed was about 40,000 square miles. But according to Earl’s calculations, it’s actually between 13,000 and 21,000. That might still sound like a lot, but from other, taller mountains you can see more than 3 times as much. And even for a total non-mathematician like me – it kind of makes sense. Mount Kilimanjaro is 5 times the size of Mount Diablo. So, Diablo couldn’t possibly have a comparable viewshed – even if it is an isolated peak.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> He conclusively showed the Mount Diablo viewshed claim was bogus. [laughs] But it doesn’t really matter because the claim had already done its work. Mt. Diablo became famous. It became beloved. And as I said, Mt. Diablo may not have the largest view in the world, but it certainly has the most extraordinary view in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> And looking out from the summit, it is extraordinary. And luckily for us, extraordinary can’t be measured with math.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>===\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was reporter Asal Ehsanipour. Big thanks to Mark Isaak, our question asker this week. And hey — there’s a new voting round up at BayCurious.org. Let’s hear this month’s options…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 1:\u003c/strong> I noticed a few older homes in Noe Valley/Mission/Glen Park with “Lipton Tea” on the window. It looks like they’re old corner stores. Any stories on why?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 2:\u003c/strong> I would like to know how the effects of climate change in the San Francisco Bay impact the underwater sonic environment. Are there any bio-acoustic studies being done locally on this topic?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 3:\u003c/strong> What is the history behind Ashland and Cherryland, two unincorporated communities in the East Bay? What defines an “unincorporated” community?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Head to BayCurious.org to cast your vote for which question you’d like to see us answer next.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by… Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Ana De Almeida Amaral and Olivia Allen-Price. Special thanks to Katie McMurran, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Happy trails.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>Read a transcript of this episode.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was originally published March 26, 2020. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mount Diablo is one of the Bay Area’s grandest landmarks and often the first glimpse of home you might see after a long drive. The mountain sits on the eastern edge of the Bay Area, in Contra Costa County, and its peak is visible from most spots around the Bay. At 3,849 feet, Mount Diablo stands apart from other mountains nearby, not just because of its prominence, but because of the legends that surround it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Years ago, listener Mark Isaak heard a rumor about the view from Mount Diablo’s summit: “I’ve heard that the spot on the earth from which you can see the most land — not just ocean, but actual land — is the summit of Mount Kilimanjaro. But that the summit of Mount Diablo comes in second. Is that true?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Taking in the View\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“The view when you come up here is really amazing,” says Sharon Peterson, Mount Diablo State Park’s interpreter. “How it compares to Kilimanjaro is up for debate, but I’m partial to the view from Mount Diablo, and I think most people are pretty amazed by it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the Mount Diablo Summit Museum and trailhead viewing deck, Peterson says that 40 of California’s 58 counties are visible on a clear day. As little as 1% of some counties can be seen, but still, it’s an impressive tally.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11808512\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11808512\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Sharon-Peterson-800x585.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"585\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Sharon-Peterson-800x585.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Sharon-Peterson-160x117.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Sharon-Peterson-1020x746.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Sharon-Peterson-1920x1404.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sharon Peterson, Mount Diablo State Park’s interpreter, gets to marvel at Mount Diablo’s view regularly. \u003ccite>(Asal Ehsanipour/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“You can see the Golden Gate Bridge today,” says Peterson, pointing west. “You could see both towers with the naked eye. And if I give you the binoculars, you can see it for sure.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Turning north, Peterson points out the Sacramento and San Joaquin rivers merging to form the California Delta. South, she describes a sweeping view of the Diablo Range and Livermore/Pleasanton. Finally we look east, where through the haze we catch a glimpse of the snow-capped Sierra over 100 miles away, rising above the Central Valley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On a clear day you can see Yosemite.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“With binoculars you can see Sentinel Dome. There is a rumor that persists that you can see Half Dome, but it’s blocked by one of the land features in between,” Peterson says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite the view’s magnificence, Seth Adams, land conservation director for Save Mount Diablo, is adamant that the Mount Kilimanjaro myth has no merit: “It’s absolutely not true that Mount Diablo has the largest view in the world except for Mount Kilimanjaro,” he says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Adams has spent a lot of time myth busting the Kilimanjaro claim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11808538\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 160px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11808538 size-thumbnail\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/2017-Seth-Morgan-Territory-Open-Roads-4-11-2017-160x224.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"160\" height=\"224\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/2017-Seth-Morgan-Territory-Open-Roads-4-11-2017-160x224.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/2017-Seth-Morgan-Territory-Open-Roads-4-11-2017-800x1120.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/2017-Seth-Morgan-Territory-Open-Roads-4-11-2017-1020x1428.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/2017-Seth-Morgan-Territory-Open-Roads-4-11-2017.jpg 1241w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 160px) 100vw, 160px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Seth Adams, land conservation director at Save Mount Diablo, has dug into the history of the oft-repeated viewshed claim. \u003ccite>(Asal Ehsanipour/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I never quite believed it,” he says. “It just didn’t have the ring of truth to me because it’s a small mountain. Common sense would tell you the taller the mountain, the bigger the view.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Considering the myth has been repeated countless times, he says it makes sense people would believe it. Adams traced the myth back to the 1850s and ’60s, when geologists like Josiah Whitney first surveyed the mountain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Whitney wrote, “It is believed that there are few, if any, points on the earth’s surface from which so extensive an area may be seen as from Mount Diablo. The whole area thus spread out, can hardly be less than 40,000 square miles.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The legend snowballed from there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Botanist William Brewer, who visited the mountain in the 1860s, wrote, “The view was one never to be forgotten. […] Few views in North America are more extensive — certainly nothing in Europe.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>An article published in the Contra Costa Gazette on April 18, 1874, said that the view from the summit “[showed] more of the earth’s kingdom than is visible from any other known spot on the globe.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11808685\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11808685 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Burgess-map-Picture1-800x449.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"449\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Burgess-map-Picture1-800x449.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Burgess-map-Picture1-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Burgess-map-Picture1-1020x572.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Burgess-map-Picture1.jpg 1437w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A brochure printed by entrepreneur Robert Noble Burgess, who purchased the summit of Mount Diablo in 1912. Burgess’ brochures helped popularized the claim that Mount Diablo had the greatest view in the world. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Save Mount Diablo)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The claim about Mount Diablo’s view was repeated for decades, through the end of World War II, when recreation at parks and mountains picked up popularity. Mount Diablo became a go-to tourist spot as the Kilimanjaro claim circulated in travel guides and hiking maps, by railroad companies and auto associations. Even the Contra Costa Development Association published materials in the 1940s describing the mountain as “the world’s greatest view! More territory visible than from any point in the world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As visitors flocked to Mount Diablo for the views, entrepreneurs saw a chance to make a buck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“More than half of Mount Diablo was locked up successively by two big real estate land speculators named Robert Noble Burgess and Walter P. Frick,” Adams says. “Both of them printed brochures by the thousands that included the claim of Mount Diablo having the largest view in the world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11808683\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 300px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11808683\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Frick-brochure-Picture1-1020x1548.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"300\" height=\"455\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Frick-brochure-Picture1-1020x1548.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Frick-brochure-Picture1-160x243.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Frick-brochure-Picture1-800x1214.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Frick-brochure-Picture1.jpg 1471w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 300px) 100vw, 300px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The entrepreneur Walter P. Frick originally printed brochures claiming that “from the summit of Mount Diablo, a larger area of land and water is visible than from any other point in the world.” He later changed this claim to reflect that the view comes second to Mount Kilimanjaro. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Save Mount Diablo)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Boasting that claim was a smart business move for Burgess, who had bought a portion of the mountain in 1912 and subsequently built the Mount Diablo Scenic Boulevard taking visitors to the summit. In 1917, he had a dream of building thousands of homes on the mountain’s western flank, and those amazing views helped push his agenda forward. Burgess eventually went bankrupt and the deal flopped, but the brochures had done their work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You can definitely credit the brochures for spreading the misinformation, but it’s just too good to claim the largest view in the world,” Adams explains. “And understand that California was a promoter’s dream.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Which brings us to another promoter, the Oakland entrepreneur Walter P. Frick. Initially Frick, who had been Burgess’ business partner, hired a publicist to help him spread the rumor that Mount Diablo’s view was the greatest on earth, which came in handy as he built an 8-foot beacon tower known as the Eye of Diablo. However, the engineers Frick worked with at Standard Oil Company were skeptical of the claim’s validity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The 1928 Standard Oil Bulletin subsequently added a footnote to their brochure promoting the view as the world’s grandest, “Except for a point in Africa.” The reference to Mount Kilimanjaro was clear.\u003cbr>\nFrom there, the legend shifted from Mount Diablo having the largest view in the world to the second largest. That new myth persisted until 1994, when engineer and mountaineer Edward “7.389056099” Earl mathematically debunked the theory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Using topographical atlases and aeronautical charts, Earl set out to determine the viewshed from the summit of Mount Diablo compared to others in North America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A viewshed is the area visible from a specific vantage point, including land or water. According to Earl’s calculations, Mount Diablo’s viewshed is between 13,000 and 21,000 square miles. That might sound like a lot, but Earl concluded that from other, taller North American mountains, it’s possible to see over three times as much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With a 19,341-foot elevation, Mount Kilimanjaro soars five times as high as Mount Diablo. In practical terms, a mountain as small as Mount Diablo couldn’t possibly have a greater viewshed than Mount Kilimanjaro — even if it is an isolated peak.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He conclusively showed the Mount Diablo viewshed claim was bogus,” says Adams with a laugh. “But it doesn’t really matter because the claim had already done its work. Mount Diablo became famous. It became beloved. And as I said, Mount Diablo may not have the largest view in the world, but it certainly has the most extraordinary view in the world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Luckily for visitors, extraordinary can’t be measured with math.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> When it comes to size – Mount Diablo is the Bay Area’s grandest landmark. It’s often the first glimpse of home you’ll see after a long drive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It stands apart from other mountains nearby, not just because of its prominence, but because of the legends that surround it. The Bay Miwok tribe believe the mountain is sacred — that it is the central point of the world’s creation, where man was made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But it’s a different story that caught the attention of listener Mark Isaak.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Isaak:\u003c/strong> I’ve heard that the spot on the earth from which you can see the most land – not just ocean, but actual land – is the summit of Mount Kilimanjaro, but that the summit of Mount Diablo comes in second. Is that true?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Mark heard this legend so long ago, he can’t remember where it came from. But he’s not alone. Lots of you have heard this story. And it does seem possible. Mount Diablo is an isolated peak, it’s a lot taller than everything else around it. So even though there are lots of taller mountains, they might not have as big of a view because other mountains get in the way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>From the top of Diablo you can see from the Pacific Ocean, all the way across the state to the Sierra. But second biggest view in the world … really?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today we’re going to find out if Mount Diablo’s view deserves so remarkable an accolade, and explore the story behind the legend. This story first aired in 2020. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> OK, so we set out to learn if Mount Diablo is in fact numero dos on the list of places on earth where you can see the most land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reporter Asal Ehsanipour takes a winding road to find out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[driving sounds]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> The mystery of the view from Mount Diablo is a romantic one – steeped in local legend. To find out if it’s true, I drove to the source itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[GPS: “IN 600 FEET…”]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> From the base of the mountain, it takes me about an hour to get to the top.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[car door shuts, locks]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour (outside)\u003c/strong>: Wow, that took so long.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Asal Ehsanipour: Mount Diablo sits on the Eastern Edge of the Bay Area – in Contra Costa County. But you can see its double peak pyramid from most spots around the Bay. At 3,849 feet, the mountain’s view is second to none. Well, it’s second to one… maybe. We’ll find out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sharon Peterson:\u003c/strong> So the view when you come up here is really amazing. How it compares to Kilimanjaro is up for debate. But I’m kind of partial to the view here from Mount Diablo and I think most people that come are pretty amazed by what the view looks like.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> My tour guide today is Sharon Peterson, Mount Diablo State Park’s interpreter – which, she says, means her job is to tell the story of the park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[footsteps on a trail]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Sharon takes me to the summit’s viewing deck. She says that on a clear day, you can see 40 of California’s 58 counties from here. As little as 1% of some. But still.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sharon Peterson:\u003c/strong> This is where we walk out into the wind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> First, she points west.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sharon Peterson:\u003c/strong> So you can see the Golden Gate Bridge today. You could see both towers with the naked eye. And if I give you the binoculars, you can probably see it for sure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> She whips them out and there it is. The Golden Gate Bridge, 60 31 miles away. Two towers peeking over Round Top in the Berkeley Hills.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour (outside):\u003c/strong> Wow, that’s really cool!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Then, we turn North. And you can see the Sacramento and San Juaquin rivers forming the Delta.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>South, it’s a sweeping view of the Diablo Range and Livermore – Pleasanton.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And finally, East. Where through the haze we catch a glimpse of the snow-speckled Sierras rising above the Central Valley – over a hundred miles away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour (outside):\u003c/strong> And I heard that you can also see Yosemite from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sharon Peterson:\u003c/strong> On a clear day you can. And with binoculars you can see Sentinel Dome. There is a rumor that you can see Half Dome, but it’s actually blocked by one of the land features in between here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Seeing it for myself, the site is so magnificent, so magical, that it feels like I’m looking down at a watercolor. The only thing that compares is the view from a plane. Maybe it’s possible the myth is true?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> It’s absolutely not true that Mt. Diablo has the largest view in the world except for Mount Kilimanjaro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Seth Adams is the Land Conservation Director at Save Mount Diablo. And he’s spent a lot of time mythbusting the Kilimanjaro claim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> I never quite believed it. It just didn’t have the ring of truth to me because it’s a small mountain and common sense would tell you the taller the mountain, the bigger the view.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> But considering the myth has been repeated hundreds of times, he says it makes sense people would believe it. Seth traced the infatuation with Diablo back to the 1850s and 60s – when scientists like Josiah [Hosiah] Whitney first geologically surveyed the mountain. That’s Josiah Whitney of Mount Whitney – the tallest mountain in the Sierra Nevada.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> Josiah Whitney wrote, “It is believed that there are few, if any, points on the earth’s surface from which so extensive an area may be seen as from Mt. Diablo. The whole area thus spread out, can hardly be less than 40,000 square miles.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> The legend snowballed from there. Repeated over and over for decades – through the end of World War II. A time when people started experiencing parks and mountains recreationally – and Mount Diablo became a go-to tourist spot. The Kilimanjaro claim circulated in travel guides and hiking maps. By railroad companies and auto associations. Even Contra Costa County described it as quote: “the world’s greatest view! More territory visible than from any point in the world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> But as visitors flocked to Diablo for the views, entrepreneurs saw a chance to make a buck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> More than half of Mount Diablo was locked up successively by two big real estate land speculators. Both of them printed brochures by the thousands that included the claim of Mt. Diablo having the largest view in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Boasting that claim was a smart business move for one developer. In 1917, he had a dream of building thousands of homes on Diablo’s western flank, and those amazing views helped push forward his agenda. Eventually the developer went bankrupt and the deal flopped. But, it was too late. The brochures had done their work…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> Oh you can definitely credit the brochures with spreading the misinformation. It’s just too good to claim the largest view in the world, right. And understand that California was a promoter’s dream.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Which brings us to another promoter… the entrepreneur Walter P. Frick, who hired a publicist to help him spread the rumor that Mount Diablo had the greatest view on earth. Especially as he built an 8 foot beacon tower known as the Eye of Diablo. But Frick was working with engineers from the Standard Oil Company… and they were skeptical.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> Someone for the first time said, “come on, biggest view in the entire world?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> So after that – the 1928 Standard Oil Bulletin added a footnote to their brochure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> “Except for a point in Africa.” Clearly being Mount Kilimanjaro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> From there, the legend shifted from Mount Diablo having the largest view in the world, to the second largest. It went on like this until 1994 – when it was officially debunked by an engineer slash mountaineer who did the math. His name was Edward Earl, but he went by the nickname “7.389056099.” …Math joke.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> He said ‘I don’t believe this. And so what I’m gonna do is I’m going to define the problem and I’m gonna calculate view sheds for lots of other mountains and see how they compare.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Viewshed is “the area visible from a specific vantage point” including land or water. Now remember, Whitney speculated Diablo’s viewshed was about 40,000 square miles. But according to Earl’s calculations, it’s actually between 13,000 and 21,000. That might still sound like a lot, but from other, taller mountains you can see more than 3 times as much. And even for a total non-mathematician like me – it kind of makes sense. Mount Kilimanjaro is 5 times the size of Mount Diablo. So, Diablo couldn’t possibly have a comparable viewshed – even if it is an isolated peak.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> He conclusively showed the Mount Diablo viewshed claim was bogus. [laughs] But it doesn’t really matter because the claim had already done its work. Mt. Diablo became famous. It became beloved. And as I said, Mt. Diablo may not have the largest view in the world, but it certainly has the most extraordinary view in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> And looking out from the summit, it is extraordinary. And luckily for us, extraordinary can’t be measured with math.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>===\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was reporter Asal Ehsanipour. Big thanks to Mark Isaak, our question asker this week. And hey — there’s a new voting round up at BayCurious.org. Let’s hear this month’s options…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 1:\u003c/strong> I noticed a few older homes in Noe Valley/Mission/Glen Park with “Lipton Tea” on the window. It looks like they’re old corner stores. Any stories on why?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 2:\u003c/strong> I would like to know how the effects of climate change in the San Francisco Bay impact the underwater sonic environment. Are there any bio-acoustic studies being done locally on this topic?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 3:\u003c/strong> What is the history behind Ashland and Cherryland, two unincorporated communities in the East Bay? What defines an “unincorporated” community?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Head to BayCurious.org to cast your vote for which question you’d like to see us answer next.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by… Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Ana De Almeida Amaral and Olivia Allen-Price. Special thanks to Katie McMurran, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Happy trails.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "for-a-taste-of-the-old-west-head-to-this-tiny-bay-area-town",
"title": "The Bay Area Wild West Port Town That Reinvented Itself",
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"headTitle": "The Bay Area Wild West Port Town That Reinvented Itself | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Port Costa is a tiny, funky town on the Carquinez Strait that looks and feels like a time capsule.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s way out at the end of a windy road. If you drive there, you won’t see anything along the way except oak trees and maybe a squirrel or some crows. It seems totally disconnected from the rest of the world. But if you could come by ship or by train — it would all make sense.[baycuriouspodcastinfo align=\"right\"]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The tracks of the old transcontinental railroad run along the edge of town, and just offshore, the water is deep enough for merchant ships from Europe to have docked at what was once one of the busiest ports on the West Coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A Growing Port Town\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the late 1800s, California was exporting huge quantities of wheat and barley, and Port Costa was in the perfect location: right on the main waterway connecting the food markets of Europe to the farms of the Central Valley. Soon, warehouses and wharves lined the shore, almost from Crockett to Martinez.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002227\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002227\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-56-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-56-BL_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-56-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-56-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-56-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-56-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-56-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A train passes by the town of Port Costa in Contra Costa County on Aug. 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>They worked like a buffet table. Trains could pull up to the warehouses on one side and ships and barges on the other to load and unload grain. Businesses sprang up in between as thousands of people flocked to the growing town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1879, Port Costa became a major stop on the transcontinental railroad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The largest ferry in the world called the Solano, carried entire trains across the water between Benicia and Port Costa. It had four tracks on it and could fit 48 freight cars or 24 passenger cars. Trains drove onto the deck, and a team uncoupled them and pushed the remaining sections onboard with a switching engine. On the other side, the team put the trains back together and they drove off. The entire operation, including the journey across the strait, took less than half an hour.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1914, an even bigger ferry, called the Contra Costa, was added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Port Costa developed a reputation as a fun place to stop on the transcontinental route between New York and San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002240\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002240\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-72-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-72-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-72-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-72-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-72-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-72-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-72-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A sign for Port Costa outside the town in Contra Costa County on Aug. 27, 2024.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“This place was kind of the classic Wild West,” said Suzanne Statler of the Port Costa Conservation Society. “You’d get off the ferry, and you’d turn right, and you’d have a hotel . . . and a saloon . . . and a place to cash your money . . . and a saloon . . .”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was quite the raucous scene! But it was short-lived.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California’s wheat market dropped off at the beginning of the 20th century. Fires kept destroying the wooden waterfront, and shipworms ate into the pilings that held up the wharves. In 1930 came the final blow: a train bridge was built between Benicia and Martinez, shifting passenger and freight traffic inland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“All the activities around the trains, it all dried up,” Statler said. “The whole purpose of this town got kind of run over by time. So the town was dying.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002238\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002238\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-61-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-61-BL_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-61-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-61-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-61-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-61-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-61-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The town of Port Costa in Contra Costa County on Aug. 27, 2024.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>The Town’s Next Chapter\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>By the 1960s, all that was left of the waterfront was rotting pilings stretched along the shore (you can still see them today). Only the inland part of town was still standing when a Coors delivery driver named Bill Rich first saw it. He thought it could make for a cool, eclectic place for artists. He bought the downtown for a cheap price and revived some of the old establishments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of them is the Burlington Hotel, a charming yellow three-story building from 1883. Each of its rooms has a lady’s name painted on the door.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The urban legend is that these were sex workers in Port Costa’s wild heyday. But many of the townsfolk say these women were, in fact, Bill Rich’s artist friends who had little shops up here in the 1970s. Sarah Louise Humann, who owns the crystal shop next door to the hotel, thinks the place is too fancy to be a brothel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002154\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002154\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-13-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-13-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-13-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-13-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-13-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-13-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-13-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The ‘Peggy’ room at the Burlington Hotel, which closed in 2020, in Port Costa on Aug. 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The center of town was what you wanted the investors to see,” Humann said. “All the ill repute was probably done closer to the water. But they may have snuck gentlemen out the back door.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the hotel’s hallway is a big mirror full of shifting shadows that seem to lead back into misty dimensions. It’s old enough to have been made with real silver behind the glass, which tarnishes with age and creates a dark, dripping look.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This mirror is likely partially responsible for at least people’s illusion of ghosts in the hotel,” Humann said. “It’s extremely old and exudes that haunted ‘anything could be on the other side of it’ vibe.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002224\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002224\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-04-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-04-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-04-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-04-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-04-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-04-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-04-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An antique mirror hangs on the third floor of the Burlington Hotel, which closed in 2020, in Port Costa on Aug. 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Humann says the rumor of haunting has attracted badly behaved ghost hunters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is a little bit of a touchy subject for locals,” she said, “because there’s been vandalization and damage and disrespect done.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Humann hasn’t seen any ghosts, but Barbara Williams, who bartends across the street in the Warehouse Cafe, says she has.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was in the bar. I was closing,” Williams said. “And I felt a breeze going past my face. And as I turned to tell the people that I was closed, I saw a woman look at me and walk through the door.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The door, she said, was closed and locked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002158\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002158\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-29-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-29-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-29-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-29-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-29-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-29-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-29-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Paintings hang above the entryway staircase at the Burlington Hotel in Port Costa on Aug. 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Port Costa Today\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>These days, the Warehouse is a popular weekend hangout for motorcycle clubs. Bands play out front in what used to be the train yard. And inside, dilapidated, festive relics and bits of art cover the walls and ceiling. In the corner, an almost 9-foot-tall taxidermied polar bear looms over a baby seal. There’s also a water buffalo, a metal Medusa sculpture, circus masks and life preservers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002161\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002161\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-39-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-39-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-39-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-39-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-39-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-39-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-39-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Warehouse Cafe, a bar and restaurant, in Port Costa on Aug. 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The collection has taken on a momentum of its own, bartender Lary Dameron says. Just a few years ago, someone donated a Kodiak bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002159\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002159\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-34-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-34-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-34-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-34-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-34-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-34-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-34-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A taxidermy polar bear and bear are on display at The Warehouse Cafe, a bar and restaurant, in Port Costa on Aug. 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“A guy who comes in on Sundays for music works at the wildlife museum, and they were cleaning out the basement, so he calls up, and he’s like, you guys interested in a Kodiak bear, you know, taxidermy?” Dameron said. “It’s like, ‘hell yeah, I want it.’ How often do people offer you a bear?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Port Costa still has the raucous character of its old port days. Only about 250 people live here now, and though \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/soleilho/article/california-san-francisco-bay-area-nimby-battle-19518620.php\">they don’t agree on everything\u003c/a>, they do share a devotion to this unique place along the Carquinez Strait.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002162\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002162\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-44-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-44-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-44-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-44-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-44-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-44-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-44-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Lary Dameron stands behind the bar at the Warehouse Cafe in Port Costa on Aug. 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Marianne Hockenberry has vivid memories of being a teenager and going on long bike rides with her mom. They’d often start in Crockett, ride along the Carquinez Strait to Martinez. And sometimes continue on all the way to Danville, some 25 miles away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marianne Hockenberry:\u003c/strong> And then my dad would follow us in, in the VA, in the VW bus. So we had a camper bus, and he biked sometimes, but he wasn’t into it like my mom was. And so yeah, then he would follow along. And so when we got tired, we could just like take a break and get in the bus in the VW.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Along these journeys — Marianne and her mom passed through some of the rural, golden hills of the Bay Area. And the towns nestled in them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marianne Hockenberry:\u003c/strong> She liked to tell me stories about Port Costa when we would go through there. We’d be eating at the warehouse…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The Warehouse … an iconic building in the small town of Port Costa, and just across the street is an old Victorian hotel. It’s weather-worn but still charming with its chipped yellow and blue paint…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marianne Hockenberry:\u003c/strong> … and, she would tell me this used to be, a brothel or used to be women of the night here like she would say, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Marianne isn’t totally sure about the truth behind her mom’s stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marianne Hockenberry:\u003c/strong> My mom was… she was a wonderful kind of crazy woman. And, you know, I don’t know, I, I pretty much take after her, I think. (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Marianne isn’t the only person curious about Port Costa. We’ve received a few questions over the years about this tiny, eclectic town sitting along the Carquinez Strait. Today, we’ll answer a slew of them! Did that old hotel used to be a brothel? Is it haunted? Was Port Costa once a port, as the name suggests?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That’s all just ahead on Bay Curious. The show that explores the hidden true stories of the San Francisco Bay Area. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> To answer the questions from Marianne and other listeners about Port Costa, we first have to get there! KQED’s Katherine Monahan got the job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> If you drive to Port Costa, it’s pretty hard to understand why it’s here. It’s way out at the end of a windy road. You won’t see anything along the way except oak trees and maybe a squirrel or some crows. It seems totally disconnected from the rest of the world. But if you could come by ship or by train — it would all make sense. So we’re going to cross the tracks, look to the left, look to the right. No trains. Let’s go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Suzanne Statler with the Port Costa Conservation Society steps across the railroad tracks that run along the shoreline at the edge of town. She points out into the waters of the Carquinez Strait.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> If you go just out, 50 feet. It drops down to 50 feet there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> That’s deep enough for merchant ships from Europe to have docked here . . . at what was once one of the busiest ports on the West Coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> In the late 1800s, California was exporting huge quantities of wheat and barley. And a businessman named George W. McNear realized that Port Costa was in the perfect location: right on the main waterway connecting the food markets of Europe to the farms of the Central Valley. So he bought a stretch of shoreline and started building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> All along the Carquinez Straits, you had warehouses that were built and burned down and rebuilt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> It worked like a buffet table. Trains could pull up to the warehouses on one side and ships and barges on the other and load and unload grain. Businesses sprang up in between.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> All along the waterfront there, that is where downtown was located at Port Costa. And it was quite a bustling place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Thousands of people flocked to the growing town — stevedores, railroad workers, fishermen. McNear, who became known as “The Wheat King,” started building inland as well, up a narrow valley, away from the wildness of the wharves. Port Costa grew into kind of a T-shape, with the waterfront as the top of the T, and then along the stem …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> The modern town was where people lived. So your boarding houses were there, your individual family homes were there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> In 1879, it became a major stop on the transcontinental railroad. The largest ferry in the world carried entire trains across the water between Benicia and Port Costa — 24 hours a day. It was called the Solano.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> It was 425 feet long.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan (in tape):\u003c/strong> What!?\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> Four, four football fields. Plus.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan (in tape):\u003c/strong> That’s buck wild.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The Solano could carry 48 freight cars or 24 passenger cars. It had four tracks on it. Trains drove right up onto the deck, and a team uncoupled them and pushed the remaining sections onboard with a switching engine. On the other side, the team put the trains back together again and they drove off. The entire operation — including the journey across the strait — took less than half an hour.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Port Costa developed a reputation as a fun place to stop on the transcontinental route, which ran between the East Coast and Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"margin: 0px;padding: 0px\">\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> This place was kind of the classic Wild West. You’d get off the ferry, and you’d turn right, and you’d have a hotel and a saloon and a place to cash your money and a saloon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> It was quite the raucous scene! But it was short-lived. California’s wheat market dropped off at the beginning of the 20th century. Fires kept destroying the wooden waterfront, and shipworms — small wood-burrowing mollusks — ate into the pilings that held up the wharves. In 1930 came the final blow — a train bridge was built a little ways inland, between Benicia and Martinez, rendering the Solano train ferry obsolete\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> People coming in and out of Port Costa and all the activities around the trains, it all dried up. The whole purpose of this town that had been built on, got kind of run over by time. So the town was dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Some thirty years passed, and by the 1960s, the place was almost a ghost town. The waterfront part, all the warehouses and saloons and such, was gone — just a bunch of rotting pilings stretched along the shore. Only the inland part was still standing when a man named Bill Rich first saw it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> He was a Coors delivery driver. And he said, you know what, this would be an awesome place to make into a really eclectic, funky, awesome place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> And he did it! Rich bought the downtown for cheap and revived some of the old establishments. One of them is the Burlington Hotel. It closed during the pandemic, but Sarah Humann, who owns a crystal shop next door, has the keys.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Keys jingling]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> So the doors to the Burlington Hotel are a very popular photo backdrop. Watch your step.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Door opening]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Oh. my. Goodness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so everything in the hotel’s pretty creaky. Uh, we can head upstairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Stepping sounds]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Through the carved wooden doors, up past the painted portraits mounted on the velvet embossed wallpaper, are the hotel rooms. And each has a lady’s name painted on the door.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> So we have Hazel, Corrine, Victoria is a really pretty room. And I think I can get you in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The urban legend is that these were sex workers in Port Costa’s wild heyday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> So this is Ethel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Keys opening the door]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> But many of the townsfolk say these women were, in fact, Bill Rich’s artist friends who had little shops up here in the 70s. Which seems like a more probable fit. I mean, maybe Ethel was a sexy name back in the 1800s. But . . . Fanny?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> Fanny is a room that has purple maroon furniture set against an olive green wall color. There’s definitely some porcelain kitty cats and some cotton candy, pink, floral decorated lamps.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Humann thinks this hotel was too fancy to be a brothel, and besides, it was in the more straight-laced, residential section.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> Just understanding how these old towns worked is, the center of town was what you wanted the investors to see. All the ill-repute was probably done closer to the water. But they may have snuck gentlemen out the back door. (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Down the hallway, Humann points out the probable source of another popular rumor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> This mirror is likely partially responsible for at least people’s illusion of ghosts in the hotel. It’s extremely old and exudes that haunted, anything could be on the other side of it, vibe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> It’s about 4 feet tall and wide and full of shifting shadows that seem to lead back into misty dimensions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> The old mirrors have an actual layer of silver on the other side of the glass. And so, over time, that silver has tarnished. And you can kind of see how it all drips down. It’s very cool looking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The hotel is old and creaky and has actual bats living in the walls. Humann says it’s not surprising that people like to think it’s haunted. But that the rumor has attracted badly behaved ghost hunters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> It is a little bit of a touchy subject for locals, because there’s been vandalization and damage and disrespect done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Humann hasn’t seen any ghosts. But Barbara Williams, who works across the street, says she has. She bartends in the Warehouse Cafe. It’s on the first floor of the last of the town’s grain warehouses, built in 1886.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barbara Williams:\u003c/strong> I was in the bar. I was closing. And I felt a breeze going past my face, and as I turned to tell the people that I was closed, I saw a woman look at me and walk through the door.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan (in tape):\u003c/strong> And when you say walk through the door, was the door open?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barbara Williams:\u003c/strong> The door was locked. It was closed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Another night, she says, she saw a man go into the back of the bar, and she went to tell him he wasn’t allowed there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barbara Williams:\u003c/strong> Got up, looked around. No one was here. So, I told the other bartender the next day about what happened. And she said you described Bill Rich.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Bill Rich, the guy who bought the town in the 1960s, had passed away some years before that. But he used to own the Warehouse bar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music of band playing outside Warehouse Cafe]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> These days, the Warehouse is a popular weekend hangout for motorcycle clubs. Bands play out front in what used to be the train yard. And daytrippers, along with some of the town’s 250 residents, come here to drink and chat. It’s nice. It’s sunny. A few cats are walking around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> And inside, it is seriously funky, with dilapidated, festive relics and bits of art all over the walls and ceiling. Lary Dameron has been bartending here for close to 20 years. He points to a taxidermied polar bear in a glass case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lary Dameron:\u003c/strong> He’s 8 foot, 8 inches tall. He’s standing up like he’s gonna swipe at you or something. But, um, the dead baby seal at his feet is unique.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The polar bear is too weird and majestic to call the bar’s mascot, but it’s certainly part of its soul.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lary Dameron:\u003c/strong> It was payment for some work that Bill, the guy who bought the town … he did some work for this guy and that was how he paid him back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan (in tape):\u003c/strong> With a polar bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lary Dameron:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> There’s also a water buffalo, a metal medusa sculpture, circus masks and giant candelabras and life preservers. And the collection has taken on a momentum of its own. Just a few years ago, someone donated a Kodiak bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lary Dameron:\u003c/strong> A guy who comes in on Sundays for music works at the wildlife museum and they were cleaning out the basement. So he calls up, and he’s like, “You guys interested in a Kodiak bear, you know, taxidermy?” I was like, “For free?” He’s like, “Yeah.” (sarcastically) I’m like, “No, no, I don’t want that…” It’s like, “hell yeah. I want it!” It’s like, how often do people offer you a bear?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Port Costa is a unique place. And the people who know about it really treasure it. Dameron walks outside to where the band is packing up at the end of their set, and a few residents and bikers are just enjoying the evening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lary Dameron:\u003c/strong> You know, when the sun goes down, it’s kind of like this. It’s really nice. And you get, you know, boats go by, and ships go by, and trains and stuff. And it’s kind of cool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> It’s a time capsule. It’s still got that raucous character that it had in the beginning. And as Dameron points out, Port Costa is surrounded by designated parkland, so it won’t be growing any time soon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lary Dameron:\u003c/strong> If the town doesn’t just disintegrate or something, it’ll be exactly how it is today because it’s not going to change. I mean, it can’t really change; as long as people maintain it and live here, it’ll be just like it is now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Sound of train going by]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was KQED’s Katherine Monahan. Thanks to Marianne Hockenberry for asking the question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We won’t be dropping an episode next week because the Bay Curious team is off for Labor Day (and I really hope you are, too.) We need all the rest we can get because when we return, we start work on Prop Fest — our podcast series that explains all those confuddling props on the statewide ballot. If there’s one on your radar you’ve got questions about, send ‘em our way! There’s a question box to fill out at BayCurious.org.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Are you a longtime listener who hasn’t gotten around to leaving us a rating and review? I get it — but please, do us a solid and take a few minutes today. Those ahem, five-star reviews keep us going and help other listeners find us, too!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marianne Hockenberry:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious is made in SF at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Our show is produced by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Ana De Almeida Amaral and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Extra support from Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a good one!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Port Costa is a tiny, funky town on the Carquinez Strait that looks and feels like a time capsule.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s way out at the end of a windy road. If you drive there, you won’t see anything along the way except oak trees and maybe a squirrel or some crows. It seems totally disconnected from the rest of the world. But if you could come by ship or by train — it would all make sense.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The tracks of the old transcontinental railroad run along the edge of town, and just offshore, the water is deep enough for merchant ships from Europe to have docked at what was once one of the busiest ports on the West Coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A Growing Port Town\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the late 1800s, California was exporting huge quantities of wheat and barley, and Port Costa was in the perfect location: right on the main waterway connecting the food markets of Europe to the farms of the Central Valley. Soon, warehouses and wharves lined the shore, almost from Crockett to Martinez.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002227\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002227\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-56-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-56-BL_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-56-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-56-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-56-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-56-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-56-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A train passes by the town of Port Costa in Contra Costa County on Aug. 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>They worked like a buffet table. Trains could pull up to the warehouses on one side and ships and barges on the other to load and unload grain. Businesses sprang up in between as thousands of people flocked to the growing town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1879, Port Costa became a major stop on the transcontinental railroad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The largest ferry in the world called the Solano, carried entire trains across the water between Benicia and Port Costa. It had four tracks on it and could fit 48 freight cars or 24 passenger cars. Trains drove onto the deck, and a team uncoupled them and pushed the remaining sections onboard with a switching engine. On the other side, the team put the trains back together and they drove off. The entire operation, including the journey across the strait, took less than half an hour.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1914, an even bigger ferry, called the Contra Costa, was added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Port Costa developed a reputation as a fun place to stop on the transcontinental route between New York and San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002240\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002240\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-72-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-72-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-72-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-72-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-72-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-72-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-72-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A sign for Port Costa outside the town in Contra Costa County on Aug. 27, 2024.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“This place was kind of the classic Wild West,” said Suzanne Statler of the Port Costa Conservation Society. “You’d get off the ferry, and you’d turn right, and you’d have a hotel . . . and a saloon . . . and a place to cash your money . . . and a saloon . . .”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was quite the raucous scene! But it was short-lived.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California’s wheat market dropped off at the beginning of the 20th century. Fires kept destroying the wooden waterfront, and shipworms ate into the pilings that held up the wharves. In 1930 came the final blow: a train bridge was built between Benicia and Martinez, shifting passenger and freight traffic inland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“All the activities around the trains, it all dried up,” Statler said. “The whole purpose of this town got kind of run over by time. So the town was dying.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002238\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002238\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-61-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-61-BL_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-61-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-61-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-61-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-61-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-61-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The town of Port Costa in Contra Costa County on Aug. 27, 2024.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>The Town’s Next Chapter\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>By the 1960s, all that was left of the waterfront was rotting pilings stretched along the shore (you can still see them today). Only the inland part of town was still standing when a Coors delivery driver named Bill Rich first saw it. He thought it could make for a cool, eclectic place for artists. He bought the downtown for a cheap price and revived some of the old establishments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of them is the Burlington Hotel, a charming yellow three-story building from 1883. Each of its rooms has a lady’s name painted on the door.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The urban legend is that these were sex workers in Port Costa’s wild heyday. But many of the townsfolk say these women were, in fact, Bill Rich’s artist friends who had little shops up here in the 1970s. Sarah Louise Humann, who owns the crystal shop next door to the hotel, thinks the place is too fancy to be a brothel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002154\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002154\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-13-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-13-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-13-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-13-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-13-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-13-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-13-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The ‘Peggy’ room at the Burlington Hotel, which closed in 2020, in Port Costa on Aug. 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The center of town was what you wanted the investors to see,” Humann said. “All the ill repute was probably done closer to the water. But they may have snuck gentlemen out the back door.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the hotel’s hallway is a big mirror full of shifting shadows that seem to lead back into misty dimensions. It’s old enough to have been made with real silver behind the glass, which tarnishes with age and creates a dark, dripping look.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This mirror is likely partially responsible for at least people’s illusion of ghosts in the hotel,” Humann said. “It’s extremely old and exudes that haunted ‘anything could be on the other side of it’ vibe.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002224\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002224\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-04-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-04-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-04-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-04-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-04-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-04-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-04-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An antique mirror hangs on the third floor of the Burlington Hotel, which closed in 2020, in Port Costa on Aug. 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Humann says the rumor of haunting has attracted badly behaved ghost hunters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is a little bit of a touchy subject for locals,” she said, “because there’s been vandalization and damage and disrespect done.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Humann hasn’t seen any ghosts, but Barbara Williams, who bartends across the street in the Warehouse Cafe, says she has.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was in the bar. I was closing,” Williams said. “And I felt a breeze going past my face. And as I turned to tell the people that I was closed, I saw a woman look at me and walk through the door.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The door, she said, was closed and locked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002158\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002158\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-29-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-29-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-29-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-29-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-29-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-29-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-29-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Paintings hang above the entryway staircase at the Burlington Hotel in Port Costa on Aug. 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Port Costa Today\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>These days, the Warehouse is a popular weekend hangout for motorcycle clubs. Bands play out front in what used to be the train yard. And inside, dilapidated, festive relics and bits of art cover the walls and ceiling. In the corner, an almost 9-foot-tall taxidermied polar bear looms over a baby seal. There’s also a water buffalo, a metal Medusa sculpture, circus masks and life preservers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002161\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002161\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-39-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-39-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-39-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-39-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-39-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-39-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-39-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Warehouse Cafe, a bar and restaurant, in Port Costa on Aug. 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The collection has taken on a momentum of its own, bartender Lary Dameron says. Just a few years ago, someone donated a Kodiak bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002159\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002159\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-34-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-34-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-34-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-34-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-34-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-34-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-34-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A taxidermy polar bear and bear are on display at The Warehouse Cafe, a bar and restaurant, in Port Costa on Aug. 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“A guy who comes in on Sundays for music works at the wildlife museum, and they were cleaning out the basement, so he calls up, and he’s like, you guys interested in a Kodiak bear, you know, taxidermy?” Dameron said. “It’s like, ‘hell yeah, I want it.’ How often do people offer you a bear?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Port Costa still has the raucous character of its old port days. Only about 250 people live here now, and though \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/soleilho/article/california-san-francisco-bay-area-nimby-battle-19518620.php\">they don’t agree on everything\u003c/a>, they do share a devotion to this unique place along the Carquinez Strait.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002162\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002162\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-44-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-44-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-44-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-44-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-44-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-44-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-44-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Lary Dameron stands behind the bar at the Warehouse Cafe in Port Costa on Aug. 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Marianne Hockenberry has vivid memories of being a teenager and going on long bike rides with her mom. They’d often start in Crockett, ride along the Carquinez Strait to Martinez. And sometimes continue on all the way to Danville, some 25 miles away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marianne Hockenberry:\u003c/strong> And then my dad would follow us in, in the VA, in the VW bus. So we had a camper bus, and he biked sometimes, but he wasn’t into it like my mom was. And so yeah, then he would follow along. And so when we got tired, we could just like take a break and get in the bus in the VW.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Along these journeys — Marianne and her mom passed through some of the rural, golden hills of the Bay Area. And the towns nestled in them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marianne Hockenberry:\u003c/strong> She liked to tell me stories about Port Costa when we would go through there. We’d be eating at the warehouse…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The Warehouse … an iconic building in the small town of Port Costa, and just across the street is an old Victorian hotel. It’s weather-worn but still charming with its chipped yellow and blue paint…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marianne Hockenberry:\u003c/strong> … and, she would tell me this used to be, a brothel or used to be women of the night here like she would say, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Marianne isn’t totally sure about the truth behind her mom’s stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marianne Hockenberry:\u003c/strong> My mom was… she was a wonderful kind of crazy woman. And, you know, I don’t know, I, I pretty much take after her, I think. (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Marianne isn’t the only person curious about Port Costa. We’ve received a few questions over the years about this tiny, eclectic town sitting along the Carquinez Strait. Today, we’ll answer a slew of them! Did that old hotel used to be a brothel? Is it haunted? Was Port Costa once a port, as the name suggests?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That’s all just ahead on Bay Curious. The show that explores the hidden true stories of the San Francisco Bay Area. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> To answer the questions from Marianne and other listeners about Port Costa, we first have to get there! KQED’s Katherine Monahan got the job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> If you drive to Port Costa, it’s pretty hard to understand why it’s here. It’s way out at the end of a windy road. You won’t see anything along the way except oak trees and maybe a squirrel or some crows. It seems totally disconnected from the rest of the world. But if you could come by ship or by train — it would all make sense. So we’re going to cross the tracks, look to the left, look to the right. No trains. Let’s go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Suzanne Statler with the Port Costa Conservation Society steps across the railroad tracks that run along the shoreline at the edge of town. She points out into the waters of the Carquinez Strait.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> If you go just out, 50 feet. It drops down to 50 feet there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> That’s deep enough for merchant ships from Europe to have docked here . . . at what was once one of the busiest ports on the West Coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> In the late 1800s, California was exporting huge quantities of wheat and barley. And a businessman named George W. McNear realized that Port Costa was in the perfect location: right on the main waterway connecting the food markets of Europe to the farms of the Central Valley. So he bought a stretch of shoreline and started building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> All along the Carquinez Straits, you had warehouses that were built and burned down and rebuilt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> It worked like a buffet table. Trains could pull up to the warehouses on one side and ships and barges on the other and load and unload grain. Businesses sprang up in between.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> All along the waterfront there, that is where downtown was located at Port Costa. And it was quite a bustling place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Thousands of people flocked to the growing town — stevedores, railroad workers, fishermen. McNear, who became known as “The Wheat King,” started building inland as well, up a narrow valley, away from the wildness of the wharves. Port Costa grew into kind of a T-shape, with the waterfront as the top of the T, and then along the stem …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> The modern town was where people lived. So your boarding houses were there, your individual family homes were there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> In 1879, it became a major stop on the transcontinental railroad. The largest ferry in the world carried entire trains across the water between Benicia and Port Costa — 24 hours a day. It was called the Solano.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> It was 425 feet long.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan (in tape):\u003c/strong> What!?\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> Four, four football fields. Plus.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan (in tape):\u003c/strong> That’s buck wild.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The Solano could carry 48 freight cars or 24 passenger cars. It had four tracks on it. Trains drove right up onto the deck, and a team uncoupled them and pushed the remaining sections onboard with a switching engine. On the other side, the team put the trains back together again and they drove off. The entire operation — including the journey across the strait — took less than half an hour.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Port Costa developed a reputation as a fun place to stop on the transcontinental route, which ran between the East Coast and Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"margin: 0px;padding: 0px\">\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> This place was kind of the classic Wild West. You’d get off the ferry, and you’d turn right, and you’d have a hotel and a saloon and a place to cash your money and a saloon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> It was quite the raucous scene! But it was short-lived. California’s wheat market dropped off at the beginning of the 20th century. Fires kept destroying the wooden waterfront, and shipworms — small wood-burrowing mollusks — ate into the pilings that held up the wharves. In 1930 came the final blow — a train bridge was built a little ways inland, between Benicia and Martinez, rendering the Solano train ferry obsolete\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> People coming in and out of Port Costa and all the activities around the trains, it all dried up. The whole purpose of this town that had been built on, got kind of run over by time. So the town was dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Some thirty years passed, and by the 1960s, the place was almost a ghost town. The waterfront part, all the warehouses and saloons and such, was gone — just a bunch of rotting pilings stretched along the shore. Only the inland part was still standing when a man named Bill Rich first saw it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> He was a Coors delivery driver. And he said, you know what, this would be an awesome place to make into a really eclectic, funky, awesome place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> And he did it! Rich bought the downtown for cheap and revived some of the old establishments. One of them is the Burlington Hotel. It closed during the pandemic, but Sarah Humann, who owns a crystal shop next door, has the keys.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Keys jingling]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> So the doors to the Burlington Hotel are a very popular photo backdrop. Watch your step.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Door opening]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Oh. my. Goodness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so everything in the hotel’s pretty creaky. Uh, we can head upstairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Stepping sounds]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Through the carved wooden doors, up past the painted portraits mounted on the velvet embossed wallpaper, are the hotel rooms. And each has a lady’s name painted on the door.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> So we have Hazel, Corrine, Victoria is a really pretty room. And I think I can get you in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The urban legend is that these were sex workers in Port Costa’s wild heyday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> So this is Ethel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Keys opening the door]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> But many of the townsfolk say these women were, in fact, Bill Rich’s artist friends who had little shops up here in the 70s. Which seems like a more probable fit. I mean, maybe Ethel was a sexy name back in the 1800s. But . . . Fanny?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> Fanny is a room that has purple maroon furniture set against an olive green wall color. There’s definitely some porcelain kitty cats and some cotton candy, pink, floral decorated lamps.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Humann thinks this hotel was too fancy to be a brothel, and besides, it was in the more straight-laced, residential section.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> Just understanding how these old towns worked is, the center of town was what you wanted the investors to see. All the ill-repute was probably done closer to the water. But they may have snuck gentlemen out the back door. (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Down the hallway, Humann points out the probable source of another popular rumor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> This mirror is likely partially responsible for at least people’s illusion of ghosts in the hotel. It’s extremely old and exudes that haunted, anything could be on the other side of it, vibe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> It’s about 4 feet tall and wide and full of shifting shadows that seem to lead back into misty dimensions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> The old mirrors have an actual layer of silver on the other side of the glass. And so, over time, that silver has tarnished. And you can kind of see how it all drips down. It’s very cool looking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The hotel is old and creaky and has actual bats living in the walls. Humann says it’s not surprising that people like to think it’s haunted. But that the rumor has attracted badly behaved ghost hunters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> It is a little bit of a touchy subject for locals, because there’s been vandalization and damage and disrespect done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Humann hasn’t seen any ghosts. But Barbara Williams, who works across the street, says she has. She bartends in the Warehouse Cafe. It’s on the first floor of the last of the town’s grain warehouses, built in 1886.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barbara Williams:\u003c/strong> I was in the bar. I was closing. And I felt a breeze going past my face, and as I turned to tell the people that I was closed, I saw a woman look at me and walk through the door.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan (in tape):\u003c/strong> And when you say walk through the door, was the door open?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barbara Williams:\u003c/strong> The door was locked. It was closed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Another night, she says, she saw a man go into the back of the bar, and she went to tell him he wasn’t allowed there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barbara Williams:\u003c/strong> Got up, looked around. No one was here. So, I told the other bartender the next day about what happened. And she said you described Bill Rich.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Bill Rich, the guy who bought the town in the 1960s, had passed away some years before that. But he used to own the Warehouse bar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music of band playing outside Warehouse Cafe]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> These days, the Warehouse is a popular weekend hangout for motorcycle clubs. Bands play out front in what used to be the train yard. And daytrippers, along with some of the town’s 250 residents, come here to drink and chat. It’s nice. It’s sunny. A few cats are walking around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> And inside, it is seriously funky, with dilapidated, festive relics and bits of art all over the walls and ceiling. Lary Dameron has been bartending here for close to 20 years. He points to a taxidermied polar bear in a glass case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lary Dameron:\u003c/strong> He’s 8 foot, 8 inches tall. He’s standing up like he’s gonna swipe at you or something. But, um, the dead baby seal at his feet is unique.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The polar bear is too weird and majestic to call the bar’s mascot, but it’s certainly part of its soul.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lary Dameron:\u003c/strong> It was payment for some work that Bill, the guy who bought the town … he did some work for this guy and that was how he paid him back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan (in tape):\u003c/strong> With a polar bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lary Dameron:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> There’s also a water buffalo, a metal medusa sculpture, circus masks and giant candelabras and life preservers. And the collection has taken on a momentum of its own. Just a few years ago, someone donated a Kodiak bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lary Dameron:\u003c/strong> A guy who comes in on Sundays for music works at the wildlife museum and they were cleaning out the basement. So he calls up, and he’s like, “You guys interested in a Kodiak bear, you know, taxidermy?” I was like, “For free?” He’s like, “Yeah.” (sarcastically) I’m like, “No, no, I don’t want that…” It’s like, “hell yeah. I want it!” It’s like, how often do people offer you a bear?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Port Costa is a unique place. And the people who know about it really treasure it. Dameron walks outside to where the band is packing up at the end of their set, and a few residents and bikers are just enjoying the evening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lary Dameron:\u003c/strong> You know, when the sun goes down, it’s kind of like this. It’s really nice. And you get, you know, boats go by, and ships go by, and trains and stuff. And it’s kind of cool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> It’s a time capsule. It’s still got that raucous character that it had in the beginning. And as Dameron points out, Port Costa is surrounded by designated parkland, so it won’t be growing any time soon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lary Dameron:\u003c/strong> If the town doesn’t just disintegrate or something, it’ll be exactly how it is today because it’s not going to change. I mean, it can’t really change; as long as people maintain it and live here, it’ll be just like it is now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Sound of train going by]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was KQED’s Katherine Monahan. Thanks to Marianne Hockenberry for asking the question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We won’t be dropping an episode next week because the Bay Curious team is off for Labor Day (and I really hope you are, too.) We need all the rest we can get because when we return, we start work on Prop Fest — our podcast series that explains all those confuddling props on the statewide ballot. If there’s one on your radar you’ve got questions about, send ‘em our way! There’s a question box to fill out at BayCurious.org.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Are you a longtime listener who hasn’t gotten around to leaving us a rating and review? I get it — but please, do us a solid and take a few minutes today. Those ahem, five-star reviews keep us going and help other listeners find us, too!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marianne Hockenberry:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious is made in SF at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Our show is produced by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Ana De Almeida Amaral and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Extra support from Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a good one!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To some, a lowrider might just be a car with hydraulics, but amongst the most passionate followers, lowriding is a culture with its own aesthetic, attitude and history. Lowriding aficionados can now be found globally — in the streets of France, Japan, Dubai and more — each with their own style. But the origins of this artistic automotive subculture are still hotly debated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A Bay Curious listener heard that lowriding got its start in both Los Angeles and San José. They asked us to explore the lowriding origin story or stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Professor John Ulloa, the Dean of Arts and Social Science at West Valley College, has spent time researching the history of lowriding for his podcast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He says to start at ground zero we have to focus on one group of lowriders, the subculture of \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20230913-pachucos-the-latinx-subculture-that-defied-the-us\">pachucos\u003c/a> in East Los Angeles in the 1940s. Pachuco is Spanish for punk, and the group was made up of primarily Mexican American youth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>‘All my friends know the lowrider’\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“Pachuco culture is provocative in nature, it really comes out of jazz culture, big band and swing,” Ulloa said. “These kids, by a white dominant paradigm, \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbssocal.org/shows/artbound/pachucos-not-just-mexican-american-males-or-juvenile-delinquents\">were othered and seen as foreign\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Pachucos were children during the Great Depression, and they’d seen friends and family members deported en masse to Mexico — \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12002189/over-1-million-were-deported-to-mexico-nearly-100-years-ago-most-of-them-were-u-s-citizens\">even if they were legal citizens\u003c/a>. So these kids were about fighting assimilation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001113\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001113\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-34-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1235\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-34-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-34-KQED-800x494.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-34-KQED-1020x630.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-34-KQED-160x99.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-34-KQED-1536x948.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-34-KQED-1920x1186.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The engine of ‘El Diablo,’ a 1963 GMC truck at the annual King of the Streets car show at the Palace of Fine Arts on Aug. 17, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Pachuco culture developed in the shadow of World War II, at a time when many Americans were rationing gas, food, and not buying new clothes to save resources for the war effort. Rationing was seen as patriotic, but the pachuco style was extravagant. They wore zoot suits: a clothing style from jazz culture that was popular with Black, Latino and Filipino youth. It featured ballooned pants, exaggerated shoulder pads, and nice hats topped off with a single large feather.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The whole presentation was really flamboyant and seen as not only criminalized but completely un-American,” Ulloa said. “It was the antithesis of the white Anglo picket fence.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001111\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001111\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-32-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-32-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-32-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-32-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-32-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-32-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-32-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">At the annual King of the Streets car show at the Palace of Fine Arts on Aug. 17, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Pachucos also went against the grain when it came to American car culture. In the late ’40s and early ’50s, white Americans were hacking their hot rod cars to go fast. But the pachucos were doing the exact opposite. They bought less expensive, older cars and customized them to go low and slow. Before the advent of hydraulics, that meant making the car heavier to force it lower to the ground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You ‘slam it,’” said Ulloa, “Literally with sandbags, with rocks, with cinder blocks, with bricks, whatever you could find that was heavy to put in the trunk.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So the argument for Los Angeles being the birthplace of lowriding is compelling. But, Ulloa said, the San José scene is extremely significant in terms of lowrider history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001107\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001107\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-21-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-21-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-21-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-21-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-21-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-21-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-21-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Tracy Gallardo sits in her dream car, a 1958 Chevy Impala, at the annual King of the Streets car show at the Palace of Fine Arts on Aug. 17, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>‘Do You Know the Way to San Jose?’ \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“The San José argument largely has to do with [it being] the birthplace of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101875250/san-jose-founded-lowrider-magazine-icon-of-chicano-car-culture-goes-out-of-print\">\u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine\u003c/a>,” Ulloa said. “It was a lifestyle magazine, it wasn’t just cars and vehicles — it was people.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1977 while studying at San Jose State, Sonny Madrid launched \u003cem>Lowrider \u003c/em>magazine, a monthly publication that celebrated Chicano culture. A small staff, including some of Madrid’s friends, wrote articles about fashion, music, politics — it was a hit at the newsstands at just the right time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001102\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001102\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-7-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-7-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-7-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-7-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-7-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-7-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-7-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The steering wheel of a Buick Regal with ‘SF’ on it at the annual King of the Streets car show at the Palace of Fine Arts on Aug. 17, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Ulloa stamps the first five years of \u003cem>Lowrider \u003c/em>being published as the “Golden Era,” because people were already lowriding but its circulation was able to reach audiences beyond San José.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“\u003cem>Lowrider \u003c/em>magazine was able to give everyone access to see what people were doing all over the Southwest,” said Ulloa. “The youth had \u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine, whether they were lowriding or not — they were able to see themselves at a car show as participants.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001105\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001105\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-13-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-13-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-13-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-13-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-13-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-13-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-13-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A Monte Carlo parked on three wheels outside of the Palace of Fine Arts during the annual King of the Streets car show on Aug. 17, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> solidified lowriding as a culture in California, and then the circulation of the magazine went international. The Letters to the Editor section of the magazine was filled with submissions from readers in Great Britain, France, all over the world, giving praise for the magazine’s content.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When there’s a global phenomenon, there’s always a local take on it. Each city adds their own flare to lowriding. People in the know can often spot a Bay Area lowrider versus one from L.A., or San Antonio, or Japan. Maybe it’s a custom paint job, or a tire size popular in a certain area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001110\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001110\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-31-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-31-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-31-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-31-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-31-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-31-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-31-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A 1963 Chevy Impala enters the Palace of Fine Arts during the annual King of the Streets car show on Aug. 17, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Everywhere lowriding goes, the community leaves a mark. Ulloa won’t settle the debate about the origins starting in Los Angeles or San José. He said it originates in the Mexican American experience in the southwestern part of the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Ulloa, where lowriding started doesn’t matter. But why people care does. Everyone wants to own a piece of history, he said, especially when there are communities who have had their histories systemically erased.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To learn more about lowriding, check out these episodes of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13923205/best-of-roll-with-us-a-sisterhood-of-lowriding\">Rightnowish \u003c/a>and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/trulyca/99/everything-comes-from-the-streets\">Truly CA\u003c/a>\u003cem>. \u003c/em>And if you want to know how lowriding — once banned in California — finally became legal, check out this episode of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11966254/california-lifts-decades-old-ban-on-lowrider-cruising\">The Bay\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001112\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001112\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-33-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-33-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-33-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-33-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-33-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-33-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-33-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A car with a sign reading ‘I’m not old, I’m classic’ is displayed on a 1964 GMC truck at the annual King of the Streets car show at the Palace of Fine Arts on Aug. 17, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>When Naomi Barrios and her sister Rosie were teenagers in the 1980s, they would look forward to cruising around Salinas every Friday and Saturday night. They’d roll low and slow, down Alisal Street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(music begins)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Naomi Barrios: \u003c/strong>That was the best. Meeting people, seeing cars, having fun, enjoying the music, flirting with guys. It was fun!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Naomi and Ros would cruise in a burgundy Pontiac Firebird … sporty looking car … with a regal yellow firebird painted on the hood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Naomi Barrios:\u003c/strong> After we would cruise a little bit, a couple times, you know, three times. Then we would park, at a Winchell’s Donut place. That was our spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> In the parking lot people, mostly from Salina’s Chicano community, would line up their immaculate cars and show off their newest modifications. I’m talking leather seats, shiny rims and precise paint jobs. These cars weren’t simply modes of transportation. They were creative vessels, canvases for artistic expression, one’s pride and joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Naomi Barrios: \u003c/strong>It was a big crowd hanging out there outside. Inside everybody ordering, chatting. Everybody had their music on. Again, just looking at their cars, meeting new people, making new friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The whole thing … it was a scene. One that was popping up in communities all across California. That’s because California is the birthplace of lowriding culture … but where exactly that birthplace is has been a point of contention. Some folks say Lowriding started down in L.A., others say things got going in San José.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> A Bay Curious listener asked us to unpack the dispute. You selected the question in a public voting round. So, today on the show, we’ll explore the lowriding origin story … or stories. Then, we’ll learn how lowriding became criminalized, and catch up on where things are at today. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We roll … right after this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor Message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So, did lowriding start in San José or L.A.? Or somewhere else all together? To start today’s episode, Bay Curious intern, Ana De Almeida Amaral, headed out to a car show to get the lay of the land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral (in tape):\u003c/strong> So I’m in a parking lot and there are dozens of cars just parked along both sides, and they’re painted all sorts of beautiful colors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Right behind the palace of fine arts in San Francisco, over a hundred people are gathered for the King of the Streets car show. In the middle of the parking lot, a sparkly, lime green Chevy is parked — with the hood popped revealing a shiny chrome engine. Nearby is a light blue two-seater, with a painting of a nude woman on the hood. The car is balanced on three wheels — one wheel 3 feet in the air — showing off its hydraulic suspension.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>People stand around cars that look like art pieces, drinking, eating, and talking all about the features. A car owner named Carlos brags about his ride.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos:\u003c/strong> That’s my car right there, El Mas Gangster de Todos. It’s a 1948 Buick Super 50. It’s all original … original chromes, original paint.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> As I walked down rows and rows of lifted, candy painted, and tricked out cars, I bumped into Anthony, who was wiping his white car’s exterior with a towel even though, to me, it already looked pristine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anthony:\u003c/strong> This is a 1969 Chevy Caprice, it has a 350 small block, uh brand new block. It has hydraulics, it’s lifted front and back — were from the BLVD Kings Car Club.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> And how long have you been working on cars?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anthony:\u003c/strong> Oof, since I was a kid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> He points to an older man working on the car with him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anthony:\u003c/strong> He basically taught me everything I know, the first car I remember him having was a ’72 Impala, so that basically got me into it. And then I remember growing up in the mission, seeing all the mini-trucks going up and down the mission. So, it’s been all my life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> Other people I spoke to shared the same passion for this art form and a deep pride in the lowriding culture. But when I asked about the origins of lowriding, I got a lot of answers …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral (in tape):\u003c/strong> Where do you think that it got started?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anthony: \u003c/strong>Oh, L.A. all day. Everybody knows, lowriding got started in L.A.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Man 1 at the car show:\u003c/strong> In my hometown, Turlock, California. Cause I was a kid from there! [laughs]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Man 2 at the car show:\u003c/strong> Hmmm, it’s been said San José.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Man 3 at the car show:\u003c/strong> From what I understand, it started somewhere in Baja California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert:\u003c/strong> I think it started with every little kid who had a Hot Wheels and stole their mom’s nail polish and started candy painting their hot wheels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Out on the streets, Ana didn’t find a straight answer, so we passed it off to reporter Sebastian Miño-Bucheli to dive deeper into the world of lowriding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> It’s clear that within the lowriding community, this matter isn’t settled. So I talked to someone who has been studying lowriding for a long time … Professor John Ulloa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> It’s debatable. I mean, it’s hotly debated. Hotly debated. Everybody wants to claim ground zero for low riding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> Ulloa is the dean of arts and social science at West Valley College. He says one tough thing about this question is that lowriding has evolved a lot over time …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> A lot of people say, well, it’s a it’s a car with hydraulics on it. But if you’re looking at culture and you’re looking at stance of car, you’re looking at attitude, you’re looking at aesthetics. Um, you know, the clothing and in tandem with the cars and, you know. Just the presence of, you know, how one presents themselves culturally… I think that we really have to be looking at the pachucos of the 1940s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(Jazzy mellow music from the 1940s era)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> Here comes the argument for Los Angeles being the birthplace of lowriding …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> The pachucos were a subculture of predominantly Mexican American young people that thrived in East Los Angeles around World War II. Pachuco means “Punk” in Spanish\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They were kids during the Great Depression, and had seen their friends and family members of Mexican descent deported en masse, even those who were American citizens. It was part of the U.S. government’s “repatriation” program … which ultimately saw the mass deportation of about a million people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa: \u003c/strong>These kids, by a white dominant paradigm, were othered and seen as foreign.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> The U.S., and white society had not treated their families well, so the pachucos were all about resisting assimilation, and instead creating something of their own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa: \u003c/strong>Pachuco culture is provocative in nature.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(music ends)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> During World War II, many Americans were showing their patriotism by rationing … using less gas, eating less food, not buying new clothes. The idea was to save resources for the war effort. But the pachucos … they were rocking the Zoot suit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa: \u003c/strong>You have an exaggerated aesthetic with ballooned out pants, exaggerated shoulders in the coats. Um, you know, topped off with a nice hat with a big single feather.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> This clothing style came from jazz culture and it was popular amongst Black, Latino and Filipino youth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa: \u003c/strong>So the whole presentation was really flamboyant and seen as not only criminalized but completely un-American.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> Around this time, in the ’40s, White Americans were hacking their hotrod cars to go fast. So pachucos did the exact opposite. They went low and slow … sending a clear message about their nonconformity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa: \u003c/strong>Necessity is the mother of all invention, right so. It was cheap to get a ’30s car and work on it, you know make it your own. You lower it in the back or you lower it all the way around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> And this was decades before hydraulics came on the scene, so getting low meant filling the trunk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa: \u003c/strong>You slam it quote unquote as we say. Literally. With sandbags, with rocks, with cinder blocks, with bricks, whatever you could find that was heavy to put in the trunk. What that would do is that would take the car from sitting level, to being lowered in the back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> The pachucos also pushed against the grain with candy-colored paint jobs and Chicano art. These cars were a loud and proud statement about their culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa: \u003c/strong>Low and slow was the antithesis of hot rod fast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> So if we’re looking at who are the OG lowriders, the first to start driving low and slow, Los Angeles and the pachucos have a compelling argument. But then where does this San Jose argument come from? What stake does that city have in lowriding culture?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> The San José argument largely has to do with it’s the birthplace of \u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(Mellow 1970s era music)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>In 1977, a guy named Sonny Madrid was a student at San Jose State. With a few friends, he launched \u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine, a monthly that celebrated Chicano culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> It was a lifestyle magazine. It wasn’t just cars and vehicles. It was people. Right …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>The magazine had articles about fashion, music, politics. And it was hitting newsstands at just the right time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> The Golden Era, as I’ve timestamped it, was from 1977 to 1982 and those were the first five years of \u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine. People were already lowriding prior to \u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine, but now what \u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine did is it was able to give everyone access to see what people were doing all over the Southwest, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>It helped solidify lowriding as a culture. And then it exported that culture making it into a global phenomenon. The Letters to the Editor section of the magazine put that on full display.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> There were letters in there from Great Britain, Scandinavia, France, Germany, all over the world. People are saying, “Hey, I just got your magazine in my hand, and this is so cool. We don’t have this here, but as soon as we can, we will.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>And when there’s a global phenomenon going around, there’s always a local take on the phenomenon. Each city adds their own flare to lowriding. People in the know can often spot a Bay Area lowrider versus one from L.A. or one from San Antonio, or Japan. Maybe it’s a custom paint job. Or a tire size popular in a certain area. Everywhere lowriding goes, the community leaves a mark.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(Blues begins)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>At the end of the day, Ulloa won’t settle the debate about if lowriding started in Los Angeles … or if what came out of San José and \u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine was so unique it was something new altogether …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> Safely we can say that lowriding originates in the Mexican American experience in the southwestern part of the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>To Ulloa, where lowriding started doesn’t matter. But why people care does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> The real question is why are people planting that flag? That’s the deeper question and everybody wants to own history. Especially communities that have historically had their histories systematically erased, swept under the rug, ignored, altered, unheard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(Music in the clear for a few seconds and then fades)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Sebastian, Lowriding has such a fascinating history in this state. And while we can celebrate that it was born here, it hasn’t always been accepted here. Can you explain how lowriding first became criminalized?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>If we go back to the pachucos in the 1940s, they were surrounded by military personnel in Los Angeles waiting to leave to fight in World War II. And the presence of pachucos did not sit well with them. They thought zoot suits were unpatriotic … a sign of gang affiliation. And that’s a narrative that the local press really fed into.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>There were a series of violent clashes where off-duty servicemen, police and white civilians attacked the pachucos, known as the Zoot Suit Riots. Anyone caught by the mob were stripped of their zoot suits and beaten. That’s where we start to see pachuco culture become targeted by police. Racial profiling is happening. And it extends to people driving lowriders. This criminalization of lowriding would play out for decades to come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In 1982, the state of California passed a law that allowed cities to implement cruising bans … over concerns about traffic, noise and crime. It also set limits on how much a car could be lowered. And then Soon after that cities like Sacramento, Fresno, L.A. and San José all had cruising bans on the books. What happened to the community in those places?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>The culture didn’t go anywhere, but people did get creative. People kept lowriding, eventually car shows started happening. These were sanctioned events where the lowriding community could still gather. But ultimately, activists started working to change things. And it worked! Just last year, California passed AB 436, a law that overturns the cruising bans, and lifts that prohibition on how low cars can go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’re still seeing how it all plays out on the local level, but this last May, East San José had their first lowrider event since the ban was lifted for Cinco de Mayo. And people I spoke with there were optimistic about the future. And they were really happy to be there that day to share in the community and culture. They said finally we’re able to do this again!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli. Thanks for your reporting on this one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>You’re welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(Music with trumpets begins)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>KQED’s podcast The Bay has an excellent episode from when the cruising ban was lifted last year, that gets a lot more into how it was criminalized. It’s called “\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11966254/california-lifts-decades-old-ban-on-lowrider-cruising\">California Lifts Decades-Old Ban on Lowrider Cruising.\u003c/a>” We’ll link to it in our show notes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Also in our show notes is a link to the web story for this Bay Curious podcast episode — check it out for some awesome photos of that lowrider car show our intern Ana went to, along with several videos KQED has produced about lowriders over the years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you like what we’re doing here at Bay Curious, please consider becoming a KQED member today. Learn more at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This episode was produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, and me Olivia Allen-Price. Special thanks to Katrina Schwartz, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen-Price … hoping you have a wonderful week. Bye!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To some, a lowrider might just be a car with hydraulics, but amongst the most passionate followers, lowriding is a culture with its own aesthetic, attitude and history. Lowriding aficionados can now be found globally — in the streets of France, Japan, Dubai and more — each with their own style. But the origins of this artistic automotive subculture are still hotly debated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A Bay Curious listener heard that lowriding got its start in both Los Angeles and San José. They asked us to explore the lowriding origin story or stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Professor John Ulloa, the Dean of Arts and Social Science at West Valley College, has spent time researching the history of lowriding for his podcast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He says to start at ground zero we have to focus on one group of lowriders, the subculture of \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20230913-pachucos-the-latinx-subculture-that-defied-the-us\">pachucos\u003c/a> in East Los Angeles in the 1940s. Pachuco is Spanish for punk, and the group was made up of primarily Mexican American youth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>‘All my friends know the lowrider’\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“Pachuco culture is provocative in nature, it really comes out of jazz culture, big band and swing,” Ulloa said. “These kids, by a white dominant paradigm, \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbssocal.org/shows/artbound/pachucos-not-just-mexican-american-males-or-juvenile-delinquents\">were othered and seen as foreign\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Pachucos were children during the Great Depression, and they’d seen friends and family members deported en masse to Mexico — \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12002189/over-1-million-were-deported-to-mexico-nearly-100-years-ago-most-of-them-were-u-s-citizens\">even if they were legal citizens\u003c/a>. So these kids were about fighting assimilation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001113\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001113\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-34-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1235\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-34-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-34-KQED-800x494.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-34-KQED-1020x630.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-34-KQED-160x99.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-34-KQED-1536x948.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-34-KQED-1920x1186.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The engine of ‘El Diablo,’ a 1963 GMC truck at the annual King of the Streets car show at the Palace of Fine Arts on Aug. 17, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Pachuco culture developed in the shadow of World War II, at a time when many Americans were rationing gas, food, and not buying new clothes to save resources for the war effort. Rationing was seen as patriotic, but the pachuco style was extravagant. They wore zoot suits: a clothing style from jazz culture that was popular with Black, Latino and Filipino youth. It featured ballooned pants, exaggerated shoulder pads, and nice hats topped off with a single large feather.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The whole presentation was really flamboyant and seen as not only criminalized but completely un-American,” Ulloa said. “It was the antithesis of the white Anglo picket fence.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001111\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001111\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-32-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-32-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-32-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-32-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-32-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-32-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-32-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">At the annual King of the Streets car show at the Palace of Fine Arts on Aug. 17, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Pachucos also went against the grain when it came to American car culture. In the late ’40s and early ’50s, white Americans were hacking their hot rod cars to go fast. But the pachucos were doing the exact opposite. They bought less expensive, older cars and customized them to go low and slow. Before the advent of hydraulics, that meant making the car heavier to force it lower to the ground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You ‘slam it,’” said Ulloa, “Literally with sandbags, with rocks, with cinder blocks, with bricks, whatever you could find that was heavy to put in the trunk.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So the argument for Los Angeles being the birthplace of lowriding is compelling. But, Ulloa said, the San José scene is extremely significant in terms of lowrider history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001107\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001107\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-21-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-21-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-21-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-21-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-21-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-21-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-21-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Tracy Gallardo sits in her dream car, a 1958 Chevy Impala, at the annual King of the Streets car show at the Palace of Fine Arts on Aug. 17, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>‘Do You Know the Way to San Jose?’ \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“The San José argument largely has to do with [it being] the birthplace of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101875250/san-jose-founded-lowrider-magazine-icon-of-chicano-car-culture-goes-out-of-print\">\u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine\u003c/a>,” Ulloa said. “It was a lifestyle magazine, it wasn’t just cars and vehicles — it was people.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1977 while studying at San Jose State, Sonny Madrid launched \u003cem>Lowrider \u003c/em>magazine, a monthly publication that celebrated Chicano culture. A small staff, including some of Madrid’s friends, wrote articles about fashion, music, politics — it was a hit at the newsstands at just the right time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001102\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001102\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-7-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-7-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-7-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-7-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-7-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-7-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-7-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The steering wheel of a Buick Regal with ‘SF’ on it at the annual King of the Streets car show at the Palace of Fine Arts on Aug. 17, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Ulloa stamps the first five years of \u003cem>Lowrider \u003c/em>being published as the “Golden Era,” because people were already lowriding but its circulation was able to reach audiences beyond San José.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“\u003cem>Lowrider \u003c/em>magazine was able to give everyone access to see what people were doing all over the Southwest,” said Ulloa. “The youth had \u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine, whether they were lowriding or not — they were able to see themselves at a car show as participants.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001105\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001105\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-13-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-13-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-13-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-13-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-13-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-13-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-13-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A Monte Carlo parked on three wheels outside of the Palace of Fine Arts during the annual King of the Streets car show on Aug. 17, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> solidified lowriding as a culture in California, and then the circulation of the magazine went international. The Letters to the Editor section of the magazine was filled with submissions from readers in Great Britain, France, all over the world, giving praise for the magazine’s content.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When there’s a global phenomenon, there’s always a local take on it. Each city adds their own flare to lowriding. People in the know can often spot a Bay Area lowrider versus one from L.A., or San Antonio, or Japan. Maybe it’s a custom paint job, or a tire size popular in a certain area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001110\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001110\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-31-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-31-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-31-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-31-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-31-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-31-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-31-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A 1963 Chevy Impala enters the Palace of Fine Arts during the annual King of the Streets car show on Aug. 17, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Everywhere lowriding goes, the community leaves a mark. Ulloa won’t settle the debate about the origins starting in Los Angeles or San José. He said it originates in the Mexican American experience in the southwestern part of the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Ulloa, where lowriding started doesn’t matter. But why people care does. Everyone wants to own a piece of history, he said, especially when there are communities who have had their histories systemically erased.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To learn more about lowriding, check out these episodes of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13923205/best-of-roll-with-us-a-sisterhood-of-lowriding\">Rightnowish \u003c/a>and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/trulyca/99/everything-comes-from-the-streets\">Truly CA\u003c/a>\u003cem>. \u003c/em>And if you want to know how lowriding — once banned in California — finally became legal, check out this episode of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11966254/california-lifts-decades-old-ban-on-lowrider-cruising\">The Bay\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001112\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001112\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-33-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-33-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-33-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-33-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-33-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-33-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-33-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A car with a sign reading ‘I’m not old, I’m classic’ is displayed on a 1964 GMC truck at the annual King of the Streets car show at the Palace of Fine Arts on Aug. 17, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>When Naomi Barrios and her sister Rosie were teenagers in the 1980s, they would look forward to cruising around Salinas every Friday and Saturday night. They’d roll low and slow, down Alisal Street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(music begins)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Naomi Barrios: \u003c/strong>That was the best. Meeting people, seeing cars, having fun, enjoying the music, flirting with guys. It was fun!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Naomi and Ros would cruise in a burgundy Pontiac Firebird … sporty looking car … with a regal yellow firebird painted on the hood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Naomi Barrios:\u003c/strong> After we would cruise a little bit, a couple times, you know, three times. Then we would park, at a Winchell’s Donut place. That was our spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> In the parking lot people, mostly from Salina’s Chicano community, would line up their immaculate cars and show off their newest modifications. I’m talking leather seats, shiny rims and precise paint jobs. These cars weren’t simply modes of transportation. They were creative vessels, canvases for artistic expression, one’s pride and joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Naomi Barrios: \u003c/strong>It was a big crowd hanging out there outside. Inside everybody ordering, chatting. Everybody had their music on. Again, just looking at their cars, meeting new people, making new friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The whole thing … it was a scene. One that was popping up in communities all across California. That’s because California is the birthplace of lowriding culture … but where exactly that birthplace is has been a point of contention. Some folks say Lowriding started down in L.A., others say things got going in San José.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> A Bay Curious listener asked us to unpack the dispute. You selected the question in a public voting round. So, today on the show, we’ll explore the lowriding origin story … or stories. Then, we’ll learn how lowriding became criminalized, and catch up on where things are at today. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We roll … right after this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor Message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So, did lowriding start in San José or L.A.? Or somewhere else all together? To start today’s episode, Bay Curious intern, Ana De Almeida Amaral, headed out to a car show to get the lay of the land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral (in tape):\u003c/strong> So I’m in a parking lot and there are dozens of cars just parked along both sides, and they’re painted all sorts of beautiful colors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Right behind the palace of fine arts in San Francisco, over a hundred people are gathered for the King of the Streets car show. In the middle of the parking lot, a sparkly, lime green Chevy is parked — with the hood popped revealing a shiny chrome engine. Nearby is a light blue two-seater, with a painting of a nude woman on the hood. The car is balanced on three wheels — one wheel 3 feet in the air — showing off its hydraulic suspension.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>People stand around cars that look like art pieces, drinking, eating, and talking all about the features. A car owner named Carlos brags about his ride.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos:\u003c/strong> That’s my car right there, El Mas Gangster de Todos. It’s a 1948 Buick Super 50. It’s all original … original chromes, original paint.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> As I walked down rows and rows of lifted, candy painted, and tricked out cars, I bumped into Anthony, who was wiping his white car’s exterior with a towel even though, to me, it already looked pristine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anthony:\u003c/strong> This is a 1969 Chevy Caprice, it has a 350 small block, uh brand new block. It has hydraulics, it’s lifted front and back — were from the BLVD Kings Car Club.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> And how long have you been working on cars?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anthony:\u003c/strong> Oof, since I was a kid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> He points to an older man working on the car with him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anthony:\u003c/strong> He basically taught me everything I know, the first car I remember him having was a ’72 Impala, so that basically got me into it. And then I remember growing up in the mission, seeing all the mini-trucks going up and down the mission. So, it’s been all my life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> Other people I spoke to shared the same passion for this art form and a deep pride in the lowriding culture. But when I asked about the origins of lowriding, I got a lot of answers …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral (in tape):\u003c/strong> Where do you think that it got started?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anthony: \u003c/strong>Oh, L.A. all day. Everybody knows, lowriding got started in L.A.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Man 1 at the car show:\u003c/strong> In my hometown, Turlock, California. Cause I was a kid from there! [laughs]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Man 2 at the car show:\u003c/strong> Hmmm, it’s been said San José.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Man 3 at the car show:\u003c/strong> From what I understand, it started somewhere in Baja California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert:\u003c/strong> I think it started with every little kid who had a Hot Wheels and stole their mom’s nail polish and started candy painting their hot wheels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Out on the streets, Ana didn’t find a straight answer, so we passed it off to reporter Sebastian Miño-Bucheli to dive deeper into the world of lowriding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> It’s clear that within the lowriding community, this matter isn’t settled. So I talked to someone who has been studying lowriding for a long time … Professor John Ulloa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> It’s debatable. I mean, it’s hotly debated. Hotly debated. Everybody wants to claim ground zero for low riding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> Ulloa is the dean of arts and social science at West Valley College. He says one tough thing about this question is that lowriding has evolved a lot over time …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> A lot of people say, well, it’s a it’s a car with hydraulics on it. But if you’re looking at culture and you’re looking at stance of car, you’re looking at attitude, you’re looking at aesthetics. Um, you know, the clothing and in tandem with the cars and, you know. Just the presence of, you know, how one presents themselves culturally… I think that we really have to be looking at the pachucos of the 1940s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(Jazzy mellow music from the 1940s era)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> Here comes the argument for Los Angeles being the birthplace of lowriding …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> The pachucos were a subculture of predominantly Mexican American young people that thrived in East Los Angeles around World War II. Pachuco means “Punk” in Spanish\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They were kids during the Great Depression, and had seen their friends and family members of Mexican descent deported en masse, even those who were American citizens. It was part of the U.S. government’s “repatriation” program … which ultimately saw the mass deportation of about a million people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa: \u003c/strong>These kids, by a white dominant paradigm, were othered and seen as foreign.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> The U.S., and white society had not treated their families well, so the pachucos were all about resisting assimilation, and instead creating something of their own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa: \u003c/strong>Pachuco culture is provocative in nature.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(music ends)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> During World War II, many Americans were showing their patriotism by rationing … using less gas, eating less food, not buying new clothes. The idea was to save resources for the war effort. But the pachucos … they were rocking the Zoot suit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa: \u003c/strong>You have an exaggerated aesthetic with ballooned out pants, exaggerated shoulders in the coats. Um, you know, topped off with a nice hat with a big single feather.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> This clothing style came from jazz culture and it was popular amongst Black, Latino and Filipino youth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa: \u003c/strong>So the whole presentation was really flamboyant and seen as not only criminalized but completely un-American.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> Around this time, in the ’40s, White Americans were hacking their hotrod cars to go fast. So pachucos did the exact opposite. They went low and slow … sending a clear message about their nonconformity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa: \u003c/strong>Necessity is the mother of all invention, right so. It was cheap to get a ’30s car and work on it, you know make it your own. You lower it in the back or you lower it all the way around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> And this was decades before hydraulics came on the scene, so getting low meant filling the trunk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa: \u003c/strong>You slam it quote unquote as we say. Literally. With sandbags, with rocks, with cinder blocks, with bricks, whatever you could find that was heavy to put in the trunk. What that would do is that would take the car from sitting level, to being lowered in the back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> The pachucos also pushed against the grain with candy-colored paint jobs and Chicano art. These cars were a loud and proud statement about their culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa: \u003c/strong>Low and slow was the antithesis of hot rod fast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> So if we’re looking at who are the OG lowriders, the first to start driving low and slow, Los Angeles and the pachucos have a compelling argument. But then where does this San Jose argument come from? What stake does that city have in lowriding culture?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> The San José argument largely has to do with it’s the birthplace of \u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(Mellow 1970s era music)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>In 1977, a guy named Sonny Madrid was a student at San Jose State. With a few friends, he launched \u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine, a monthly that celebrated Chicano culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> It was a lifestyle magazine. It wasn’t just cars and vehicles. It was people. Right …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>The magazine had articles about fashion, music, politics. And it was hitting newsstands at just the right time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> The Golden Era, as I’ve timestamped it, was from 1977 to 1982 and those were the first five years of \u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine. People were already lowriding prior to \u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine, but now what \u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine did is it was able to give everyone access to see what people were doing all over the Southwest, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>It helped solidify lowriding as a culture. And then it exported that culture making it into a global phenomenon. The Letters to the Editor section of the magazine put that on full display.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> There were letters in there from Great Britain, Scandinavia, France, Germany, all over the world. People are saying, “Hey, I just got your magazine in my hand, and this is so cool. We don’t have this here, but as soon as we can, we will.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>And when there’s a global phenomenon going around, there’s always a local take on the phenomenon. Each city adds their own flare to lowriding. People in the know can often spot a Bay Area lowrider versus one from L.A. or one from San Antonio, or Japan. Maybe it’s a custom paint job. Or a tire size popular in a certain area. Everywhere lowriding goes, the community leaves a mark.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(Blues begins)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>At the end of the day, Ulloa won’t settle the debate about if lowriding started in Los Angeles … or if what came out of San José and \u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine was so unique it was something new altogether …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> Safely we can say that lowriding originates in the Mexican American experience in the southwestern part of the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>To Ulloa, where lowriding started doesn’t matter. But why people care does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> The real question is why are people planting that flag? That’s the deeper question and everybody wants to own history. Especially communities that have historically had their histories systematically erased, swept under the rug, ignored, altered, unheard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(Music in the clear for a few seconds and then fades)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Sebastian, Lowriding has such a fascinating history in this state. And while we can celebrate that it was born here, it hasn’t always been accepted here. Can you explain how lowriding first became criminalized?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>If we go back to the pachucos in the 1940s, they were surrounded by military personnel in Los Angeles waiting to leave to fight in World War II. And the presence of pachucos did not sit well with them. They thought zoot suits were unpatriotic … a sign of gang affiliation. And that’s a narrative that the local press really fed into.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>There were a series of violent clashes where off-duty servicemen, police and white civilians attacked the pachucos, known as the Zoot Suit Riots. Anyone caught by the mob were stripped of their zoot suits and beaten. That’s where we start to see pachuco culture become targeted by police. Racial profiling is happening. And it extends to people driving lowriders. This criminalization of lowriding would play out for decades to come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In 1982, the state of California passed a law that allowed cities to implement cruising bans … over concerns about traffic, noise and crime. It also set limits on how much a car could be lowered. And then Soon after that cities like Sacramento, Fresno, L.A. and San José all had cruising bans on the books. What happened to the community in those places?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>The culture didn’t go anywhere, but people did get creative. People kept lowriding, eventually car shows started happening. These were sanctioned events where the lowriding community could still gather. But ultimately, activists started working to change things. And it worked! Just last year, California passed AB 436, a law that overturns the cruising bans, and lifts that prohibition on how low cars can go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’re still seeing how it all plays out on the local level, but this last May, East San José had their first lowrider event since the ban was lifted for Cinco de Mayo. And people I spoke with there were optimistic about the future. And they were really happy to be there that day to share in the community and culture. They said finally we’re able to do this again!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli. Thanks for your reporting on this one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>You’re welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(Music with trumpets begins)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>KQED’s podcast The Bay has an excellent episode from when the cruising ban was lifted last year, that gets a lot more into how it was criminalized. It’s called “\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11966254/california-lifts-decades-old-ban-on-lowrider-cruising\">California Lifts Decades-Old Ban on Lowrider Cruising.\u003c/a>” We’ll link to it in our show notes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Also in our show notes is a link to the web story for this Bay Curious podcast episode — check it out for some awesome photos of that lowrider car show our intern Ana went to, along with several videos KQED has produced about lowriders over the years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you like what we’re doing here at Bay Curious, please consider becoming a KQED member today. Learn more at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This episode was produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, and me Olivia Allen-Price. Special thanks to Katrina Schwartz, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen-Price … hoping you have a wonderful week. Bye!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "pretty-but-not-nice-californias-invasive-ice-plant",
"title": "Pretty, but Not 'Nice': California's Invasive Ice Plant",
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"headTitle": "Pretty, but Not ‘Nice’: California’s Invasive Ice Plant | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ice plant has many monikers: \u003cem>Carpobrotus edulis\u003c/em>, highway ice plant or simply, sour fig. If you’ve ever set eyes on a California beach, even from a distance, you’ve seen it. The fleshy green succulent has finger-like, three-sided leaves. It blooms with purple and yellow flowers in the spring. Most agree it’s a pretty plant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But this ubiquitous coastal plant has a dark side. It’s an invasive species that blankets dune landscapes, squeezing out native plants and critters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/span>Wetland ecologist Lorraine Parsons has a joke about invasive species: “Does that plant species play nicely in the sandbox?” she told me while observing rolling dunes covered with ice plant at Point Reyes National Seashore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The answer for this succulent is a decisive “no.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Carpobrotus edulis\u003c/em> competes with other plants for basic resources like\u003ca href=\"https://www.calflora.org/app/taxon?crn=1660\"> light, water and space\u003c/a>. And it usually wins.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After KQED listener Tom McMahon moved here in 2016, he was surprised to learn that the existence of ice plant in California barely predates the state’s railroads and highways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But over the past century, the succulent has blanketed some of California’s most beautiful seaside places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s part of my expectation of what the Pacific coast is,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>McMahon wanted to know how the freeway plant got here in the first place, so he asked Bay Curious to look into its origin story. He also wanted to know about other invasive plants that don’t “play nice” with California natives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The beach invader\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>From Crescent City to San Diego, ice plant can be seen in some of California’s most iconic coastal areas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At Point Reyes National Seashore, there are miles and miles of it, despite the fact that park staff have been organizing removal events to control it for 25 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At one recent work party in June, around 10 employees and volunteers tore out ice plant just north of the lighthouse. Parsons said they chose the area because it wasn’t completely overrun, and therefore, there’s still hope that the sparse populations of native plants can bounce back after the removal of ice plant and European beach grass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Parsons’ coworkers worked their way along the ground on their hands and knees, pulling out long strands of ice plant. They opted for a manual removal method rather than using herbicide, which would have affected other plants and water sources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990217\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990217\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Francesca Dezza Parada (left) and Celeste Chavez, bilingual environmental educators with the Point Reyes National Seashore Association, remove ice plant (Carpobrotus edulis), an invasive species from South Africa, from a section of dunes at Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Because it grows in long, crawling strands, fellow weed killers have been known to enjoy friendly competition over who can remove the longest strand of ice plant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’ll end up with something as long as your body and proudly hold it up like a big fish,” park ranger Sierra Frisbie said with a laugh.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990225\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990225\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">National Park Service ranger Sierra Frisbie (left) and biological science technician Miriam Golding look at native plans in an area where ice plant (Carpobrotus edulis), an invasive species from South Africa, was removed at Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>While the beach backdrop at Point Reyes is gorgeous, and the weed crusaders are having a good time, long-term ice plant eradication here is a permanent management problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It all started, Parsons said, when the plant was intentionally sown here in the early to mid-1900s as a way to keep dunes from moving into nearby pastures. Sandy dune ecosystems naturally shift, and ice plant helps hold them in place by setting down roots along viney, ground-hugging stems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ice plant also grows fast — about three feet laterally a year. So whenever ice plant shows up, it can pretty quickly form a dense carpet, holding the soil together underneath.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After decades of growth at Point Reyes, Parsons said, about 60 percent of the coastal area has been taken over by ice plant and another invasive — the equally pernicious European beach grass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this hillside near a beach just north of the lighthouse, Parsons’ team is trying to make space for the native\u003ca href=\"https://www.fws.gov/species/tidestroms-lupine-lupinus-tidestromii\"> Tidestrom’s Lupine\u003c/a>, which is at risk of going extinct.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The seeds of the lupine, another low-to-the-ground dune-lover with lavender flowers, are being eaten by mice, which have great cover in the nearby ice plant and beach grass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>“\u003c/strong>Native deer mice come, and they literally clip off the seams that have the seed on it, and they tug them off. And that’s like a food source for them,” Parsons said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The decline of native plants has a ripple effect on other wildlife. For example, another plant here, the\u003ca href=\"https://calscape.org/Monardella-undulata-(Curlyleaf-Monardella)\"> Curlyleaf Monardella\u003c/a>, is a primary nectar source for the endangered\u003ca href=\"https://www.fws.gov/species/myrtles-silverspot-butterfly-speyeria-zerene-myrtleae\"> Myrtle’s Silverspot\u003c/a> butterfly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990859\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990859\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1284\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL-800x535.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL-1020x682.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL-1536x1027.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Native plants grow in a section of dunes at Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4, 2024, that has been cleared of an invasive ice plant. The top row from left to right: curly-leaved Monardella (Monardella sinuata ssp. nigrescens), coast Indian paintbrush (Castilleja affinis) and beach layia (Layia carnosa). The bottom row from left to right are: mock heather (Ericameria ericoides), Tidestrom’s lupine (Lupinus tidestromii) and California poppy (Eschscholzia californica). This California poppy is the state flower. It’s very common around California, but usually, the flower is solid orange. The ones on the dunes tend to be much more yellow. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>And birds such as the Western Snowy Plover, which are already\u003ca href=\"https://ecos.fws.gov/ecp/species/8035\"> threatened\u003c/a>, are also made vulnerable by the nearby ice plant and beach grass. The short, white-bellied shorebird nests right in the sand on the beach. Their predators, ravens and coyotes, hide out in the thick cover of the invasives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It makes it easier for them to kind of sneak up on the nest,” Parsons said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Carpobrotus edulis\u003c/em> can also change the microbiota of the soil, making it less favorable for native plants even after ice plant is removed. So Parsons says removing an area infested by ice plants can just make space for “secondary invaders, instead of luring native flora back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For all those reasons, the staff at Point Reyes National Seashore choose their battles wisely when deciding which dune habitat to restore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re not going to get rid of all this ice plant,” Parsons said, so they choose areas that aren’t completely overrun. “Because, in a sense, you get more bang for your buck … It’s a lot easier to reestablish a native community.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Ice plant’s origins\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Today, ice plant blankets the California coastline and can also be seen in residential home gardens (where it is more welcome as an ornamental or lawn substitute).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Carpobrotus edulis\u003c/em> is not just a problem in California, though. It’s everywhere: coastal Italy, Spain, Argentina and Australia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ever since people have been buying plants and gardening, plants have been traded across international borders, UC Santa Barbara ecology professor\u003ca href=\"https://www.eemb.ucsb.edu/people/faculty/dantonio\"> Carla D’Antonio said\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People take plants with them when they go places. When the Spaniards came here, they had a whole array of species,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ice plant first came from South Africa, probably in the 1930s, according to D’Antonio.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990222\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990222\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Wetland biologist Lorraine Parsons removes ice plant (Carpobrotus edulis), an invasive species from South Africa, from a section of Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Caltrans and other transportation engineers are\u003ca href=\"https://wildlife.ca.gov/Conservation/Plants/Dont-Plant-Me/Iceplant\"> widely reported\u003c/a> to have planted it around highways, railroads and other landscapes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was planted along railroads to stabilize blowing sand,” D’Antonio said. “It’s probably pretty good at stopping cars that are out of control, you know, and stopping erosion of cliff sides or bank sides onto those highways.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There was a turning point with ice plant in the 1980s and ’90s, D’Antonio said, when natural area managers started not wanting the plant around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People were noticing that they were losing some of their beautiful…endemic coastal poppies and other things because \u003cem>Carpobrotus\u003c/em> was growing everywhere,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Other invasives\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Certainly, ice plant isn’t the only invasive plant crowding out California natives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cal-ipc.org/plants/profile/arundo-donax-profile/\">\u003cem>Arundo Donax\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, a giant reed used for roofing material and musical instruments,\u003ca href=\"https://cisr.ucr.edu/invasive-species/giant-reed\"> was brought to California in the early 1800s\u003c/a>. \u003cem>Arundo Donax\u003c/em> is particularly troublesome. It turns river areas into fuel for fires and grows back even stronger after a blaze. Tens of millions of public dollars have been used to fight its spread.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While thousands of non-native plants have been introduced into California — some of them brought intentionally, others accidentally — most of them don’t alter their environments as much as Arundo and ice plant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It isn’t that many of them that are really causing these big changes,” D’Antonio said. “But the ones that do definitely are changing the resources and the values that we want to have in our ecosystems.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990216\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990216\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ice plant (Carpobrotus edulis), an invasive species from South Africa, grows at Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Preventing ‘invasions’\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The good news is that in the past few decades, ecologists have been trying to establish some boundaries on international plant exchange, D’Antonio said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And more locally, park rangers are using a ‘boots on the ground’ approach to preventing the spread of invasives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rachel Kesel, a senior environmental scientist with California State Parks, is an evangelist for catching plant invaders before they take over entire coastlines. She’s trained park staff all over the Bay Area in early detection work, teaching them how to identify, map, and get rid of invasive plants before they become unmanageable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990219\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990219\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">National Park Service ranger Sierra Frisbie removes ice plant (Carpobrotus edulis), an invasive species from South Africa, from a section of Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>One morning in June, Kesel trained a handful of park managers and volunteers at Armstrong Redwoods State Natural Reserve in the Russian River area of Sonoma County.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She warned them about a wispy green weed called panic veldt grass or\u003ca href=\"https://www.cal-ipc.org/plants/profile/ehrharta-erecta-profile/\"> \u003cem>Ehrharta erect\u003c/em>a\u003c/a>, which she saw crop up all over Mt. Tam when she worked there for the better part of a decade. She doesn’t want the grass to invade these redwoods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It really is probably the highest priority for what to look for,” she said to the group. “It often comes in on our vehicles, mud in our tires and that sort of thing, out of our neighborhoods.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although this little blade of grass looks harmless, Kesel takes it very seriously. It has the potential to take over the forest floor; it can grow in just 2% light as well as on a sunny, soil-deprived beach. The veldt grass grows between other plants, which makes it look messy and hard to pull out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12000167\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12000167\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1475\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass-800x590.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass-1020x752.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass-160x118.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass-1536x1133.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass-1920x1416.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Rachel Kesel, senior environmental scientist for California State Parks, holds up a piece of invasive panic veldtgrass or Ehrharta erecta, in Armstrong Redwoods State Natural Reserve during a training with local park workers. \u003ccite>(Pauline Bartolone/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“It would really change that iconic look of the understory floor and kind of what people are coming into an old-growth redwood forest to see,” Kesel said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hunting down and rooting out invasives may seem like a lot of effort. But to anyone who stands among the redwoods on a hot day and soaks in the beauty of the clover-shaped sorrel on the forest floor, it probably doesn’t seem like too much to ask.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After all, we all manage weeds in our own yards, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you want to get nerdy about the invasive plants in your area, go to \u003ca href=\"https://www.cal-ipc.org/\">Cal-IPC.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’re inspired to plant California natives in your neighborhood, \u003ca href=\"https://calscape.org/\">Calscape offers design ideas and resources\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> When you think of quintessential California experiences, driving down Highway 1 is pretty tough to beat. It was one of the first things Tom McMahon did when he first visited the Bay Area in 2016.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom McMahon: \u003c/strong>I rented a car, and I drove from San Francisco down to Seacliff. And on the way, I actually stopped along a few spots. And one of them was like, Poplar Beach. And, you know, one of the things that kind of jumped out was all these green plants with the purple and yellow flowers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> What he was seeing was ice plant — a fleshy green succulent with finger-like, three-sided leaves. It grows low to the ground and spreads out over large areas, like a carpet. In spring its pink, purple, or yellow flowers burst open — its petals spreading like little fireworks. Quite frankly, it’s gorgeous! But it’s got a dark side. McMahon started studying plants with his 5-year-old daughter recently and learned this charming-looking plant is invasive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom McMahon:\u003c/strong> And this has been something that I’ve seen everywhere, and it’s part of my expectation of what the Pacific coast is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> McMahon lives in California now, and he and his daughter go on walks and see ice plant all over — it’s often used in landscaping in place of grass. She’s been asking: “If it’s invasive, why did someone put it there?” and McMahon doesn’t have a great answer. So, he asked Bay Curious for an assist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom McMahon:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I’d like to know, why are the ice plants here, who brought them here? What was their purpose? And what other things do we see every day that are actually invasive and potentially harming our local plant life and wildlife?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This week on Bay Curious, we’re delving into the world of invasive plants. We’ll answer McMahon’s questions about ice plant and explore a few other troublesome flora. That’s all just head, stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> To answer Tom McMahon’s questions about ice plant and other notorious invasives. KQED producer Pauline Bartolone got really in the weeds, hardy har har. Enjoy the ride.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Ice plant has many monikers … Carpobrotus edulis, highway ice plant, or simply sour fig. If you’ve ever set eyes on a California beach, even from a distance, you’ve seen it. From as far north as Crescent City all the way down to San Diego. When it comes to invasive species in California, ice plant is iconic. And so are the areas it invades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[Wind sounds and crashing waves]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Like the Point Reyes seashore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons: \u003c/strong>So that’s all ice plant! \u003cem>[laughs]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Oh wow, okay, that whole ridge …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons: \u003c/strong>That whole ridge is ice plant over there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>I went to the rolling dunes of Point Reyes to meet Lorraine Parsons. She’s a wetland ecologist with the National Seashore. There are miles and miles of ice plant here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons:\u003c/strong> If you drive Sir Francis Drake all the way out to the lighthouse and you look out toward the ocean, many areas are just this dense carpet of ice plant and literally no other plant species.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Parsons is here today with around 10 employees and volunteers to tear out ice plant uphill from a beach near the lighthouse. Here, they still have a chance to protect some vulnerable wildlife.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons:\u003c/strong> And we still have some native plant species, but they’re being pushed out by the ice plant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> National seashore staff have been organizing work parties like this for 25 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[sound of plants rustling, breaking]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danna Ojeda:\u003c/strong> Oh, it’s a pretty easy plant to pull.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Biotechnician Danna Ojeda is on her hands and knees ripping out ice plant, drawing her hand back like she’s pulling a plug out of a wall. Technically, you could kill ice plant with herbicide, but that can affect other plants and water sources. Ojeda says the trickiest part about tearing it out is just making sure you don’t remove other plants too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danna Ojeda:\u003c/strong> So you just pull it, and since it’s sand, it comes right off. Just make sure the roots don’t go in between any of the plants so you don’t accidentally bring them up to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Park ranger Sierra Frisbie adds her ice plant debris to a big pile.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sierra Frisbie: \u003c/strong>During a volunteer event, we try to have a competition of who can get the longest piece of ice plant and you’ll end up with something, you know, as long as your body and proudly hold it up like a big fish or something. It’s kinda your catch of the day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>While it’s a gorgeous sunny day out here, this is a beast of a project and a permanent management problem. Parsons says ice plant was actually planted here in the early to mid-1900s as a way to keep dunes, which naturally shift, from moving into nearby pastures. Ice plant is a good soil stabilizer. But it grows laterally about three feet a year. So after decades of growth, Parsons says, about 60 percent of the coastal area in Point Reyes has been taken over by ice plant and another invasive — the equally pernicious European beach grass. They’re struggling to get rid of it in areas where endangered native plants like Tidestrom’s lupine are at risk of going extinct.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons: \u003c/strong>So this is the Tidestrom’s lupine here … Again, this is a short-lived perennial plant species in the pea family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Tidestrom’s lupine is another low-to-the-ground beach-loving plant with little lavender flowers. But here, its seeds are being eaten by mice, which hide out in the nearby ice plant and European beach grass. In many areas, it hasn’t been growing back\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons: \u003c/strong>It has historically stretched from Sonoma County near Goat Rock all the way down to Monterey. And, you know, over that time, populations have been lost.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>The decline of native plants has a ripple effect on other wildlife in an ecosystem. For example, another plant here, the Curlyleaf Monardella, is a primary nectar source for an endangered butterfly. And birds such as the snowy plover, a tiny white-bellied thing, are also threatened. They nest right in the sand on the beach. And the nearby ice plant and beach grass provide cover for their predators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"margin: 0px;padding: 0px\">\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons:\u003c/strong> So, like, ravens can be in there obviously like coyotes, other animals like that, it makes it easier for them to kind of sneak up on the nest there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>And the bad news about ice plant gets worse. The invasive can also change the soil conditions, so it is less favorable for native plants even after ice plant is removed. For all those reasons, when it comes to these eradication parties, Parsons says they have to choose their battles wisely. They don’t even bother with the completely overrun areas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons:\u003c/strong> We realize we’re not going to get rid of all this beach grass, and we’re not going to get rid of all this ice plant. So I think we’re just focusing on these like moderately to sparsely invaded areas because, in a sense, you get more bang for your buck. You’ve already got the native plants here. It’s a lot easier to get, to reestablish a native community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Today, ice plant blankets the California coastline. It’s not just a problem in California, though, it’s everywhere: coastal Italy, Spain, Argentina, Australia. UC Santa Barbara ecology professor Carla D’Antonio says that’s not surprising.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carla D’Antonio: \u003c/strong>People take plants with them when they go places. When the Spaniards came here, they had a whole array of species that they brought.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>D’Antonio says there isn’t a lot of documentation about the beginnings of Carpobrotus edulis in the U.S. but there’s a consensus about its origin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carla D’Antonio: \u003c/strong>It came from South Africa. It appears to have come probably, in the 1930s. It was planted along railroads to stabilize blowing sand. It was planted along highways. It’s probably pretty good at stopping cars that are out of control, you know, and stopping erosion of cliff sides or bank sides onto those highways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Ice plant’s long and viny stems stay close to the ground as they grow, and set down many different roots along the way. The tangley mat keeps soil together underneath. That’s why Caltrans and other engineers planted it around highways, railroads and other landscapes. But when managers of natural areas like Asilomar in Monterey started getting concerned about ice plant, D’Antonio decided to do her doctoral research on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carla D’Antonio: \u003c/strong>Awareness really started to grow that this thing was showing up everywhere. People were noticing that they were losing some of their beautiful kind of endemic coastal poppies and other things because carpobrotus was growing everywhere.\u003cem>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nPauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Certainly, ice plant isn’t the only non-native plant bent on world domination. Our question asker, Tom McMahon wanted to know about others on the most-wanted list. I’d say Arundo donax would definitely be in that category. The giant reed was brought to California in the early 1800s and used for roofing material and musical instruments. Arundo donax is particularly gnarly, turning river areas into fuel for fire and growing back even stronger after a blaze. Tens of millions of public dollars have been used to fight it. All in all, D’Antonio says, thousands of non-native plants have been introduced into California. Some of them intentionally, others accidentally. Most of them play nice with native plants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carla D’Antonio:\u003c/strong> So it isn’t that many of them that are really causing these big changes. But the ones that do definitely are changing the resources and the values that we want to have in our ecosystems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> So how do we stop those world-dominating plants? D’Antonio says for the past few decades, ecologists have been trying to establish some boundaries on international plant exchange. And more locally, park rangers are using boots on the ground approaches to preventing the spread of invasives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel: \u003c/strong>So I brought a couple of things with me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>People like Rachel Kesel in Sonoma County. The park ranger is an evangelist for catching plant invaders early before they take over entire coastlines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel: \u003c/strong>So I think everybody probably knows that all folks engaged in land management spend a lot of time and money on invasive plants. And what the early detection of invasive plants approach does is try to shift some of that, hopefully, new investment of time and money that you are already spending to plants that are newer on the landscape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Kesel has trained park staff all over the Bay Area to find invasive plants early. Today, she’s in Armstrong Redwoods State Reserve in the Russian River warning a handful of park staff and volunteers about a wispy green weed called panic veldt grass, or Ehrharta erecta.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel: \u003c/strong>It often comes in on our vehicles, mud in our tires and that sort of thing out of our neighborhoods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Kesel takes this little blade of grass very seriously. She saw Ehrharta crop up all over Mt. Tam, where she worked for the better part of a decade. This thing sounds like it could withstand an apocalypse. It can grow on a forest floor in just 2 percent light, or a sunny, soil deprived beach. It grows between other plants, which makes it hard to pull out. And Kesel says it just looks messy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel: \u003c/strong>It would really change that iconic look of the understory floor and kind of what people are coming into an old-growth redwood forest to see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[footsteps]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Kesel takes a couple of park personnel out on a detection walk, to show them how they can identify the plant, and map it, so scientists can track its footprint over time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> Go, team! Now, when I come upon something like this, I’m always gonna take a twirl around it…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Is that it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> No, that is a melaka.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> It’s a native grass, thankfully. But. Good eye, you’re noticing grasses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Apparently, I can’t tell the difference between blades of grass, but Kesel seems to have developed a hawk eye for this work. When we did come across the pesky blades of grass, she broke out a plastic bag to transport the undesirables.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> I know I look paranoid, but it is dropping its seed, which is why I have it in the bag.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[rustling of plastic bag]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> So now you go in the bag, my friend …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Then, she holds up the blade of grass like it’s a contaminated Q-tip so the park workers can get a closer look. She takes out her mini magnifying glass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> So, all right. If we look at the base. Of course, this one isn’t very red because, like I said, color is a fickle character.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Finally, she shows the park workers how to map other invasives using a program on her phone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel: \u003c/strong>Go to my location. Why are you being so dumb? I talk back to my device a lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> During this trip, part of me felt like, wow, what a lot of effort to remove just a little blade of grass. But on the way out of Armstrong that day, I took a moment to stand under the shade of the redwoods and soak in the beauty. The forest floor was covered in this really pretty, delicate-looking sorrel. It’s a clover-like plant a few inches off the ground. That’s when it struck me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> I can really see why people want to preserve this place. The air is so still and soft, and I imagine much cooler than outside this redwood forest. I could spend all day here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>When it comes to preserving that feeling of the redwoods, managing invasives doesn’t seem like too much to ask. After all, we all manage weeds in our own yards, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That story was produced by Pauline Bartolone. Big thanks to Tom McMahon and his five-year-old daughter for the question. And to the California invasive plant council for their expertise on this story. If you want to learn more about invasive plants or get involved in one of those removal work parties – we’ve got a lot of resources for you online at BayCurious.org. We’ll drop a link in our show notes too. Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. You can support our show by becoming a member! Give today at donate.kqed.org.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made by Amanda Font, Olivia Allen-Price, Christopher Beale, Ana De Almeida Amaral. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED family. I’m Olivia Allen-Price, thank you for listening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ice plant has many monikers: \u003cem>Carpobrotus edulis\u003c/em>, highway ice plant or simply, sour fig. If you’ve ever set eyes on a California beach, even from a distance, you’ve seen it. The fleshy green succulent has finger-like, three-sided leaves. It blooms with purple and yellow flowers in the spring. Most agree it’s a pretty plant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But this ubiquitous coastal plant has a dark side. It’s an invasive species that blankets dune landscapes, squeezing out native plants and critters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/span>Wetland ecologist Lorraine Parsons has a joke about invasive species: “Does that plant species play nicely in the sandbox?” she told me while observing rolling dunes covered with ice plant at Point Reyes National Seashore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The answer for this succulent is a decisive “no.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Carpobrotus edulis\u003c/em> competes with other plants for basic resources like\u003ca href=\"https://www.calflora.org/app/taxon?crn=1660\"> light, water and space\u003c/a>. And it usually wins.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After KQED listener Tom McMahon moved here in 2016, he was surprised to learn that the existence of ice plant in California barely predates the state’s railroads and highways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But over the past century, the succulent has blanketed some of California’s most beautiful seaside places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s part of my expectation of what the Pacific coast is,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>McMahon wanted to know how the freeway plant got here in the first place, so he asked Bay Curious to look into its origin story. He also wanted to know about other invasive plants that don’t “play nice” with California natives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The beach invader\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>From Crescent City to San Diego, ice plant can be seen in some of California’s most iconic coastal areas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At Point Reyes National Seashore, there are miles and miles of it, despite the fact that park staff have been organizing removal events to control it for 25 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At one recent work party in June, around 10 employees and volunteers tore out ice plant just north of the lighthouse. Parsons said they chose the area because it wasn’t completely overrun, and therefore, there’s still hope that the sparse populations of native plants can bounce back after the removal of ice plant and European beach grass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Parsons’ coworkers worked their way along the ground on their hands and knees, pulling out long strands of ice plant. They opted for a manual removal method rather than using herbicide, which would have affected other plants and water sources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990217\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990217\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Francesca Dezza Parada (left) and Celeste Chavez, bilingual environmental educators with the Point Reyes National Seashore Association, remove ice plant (Carpobrotus edulis), an invasive species from South Africa, from a section of dunes at Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Because it grows in long, crawling strands, fellow weed killers have been known to enjoy friendly competition over who can remove the longest strand of ice plant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’ll end up with something as long as your body and proudly hold it up like a big fish,” park ranger Sierra Frisbie said with a laugh.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990225\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990225\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">National Park Service ranger Sierra Frisbie (left) and biological science technician Miriam Golding look at native plans in an area where ice plant (Carpobrotus edulis), an invasive species from South Africa, was removed at Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>While the beach backdrop at Point Reyes is gorgeous, and the weed crusaders are having a good time, long-term ice plant eradication here is a permanent management problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It all started, Parsons said, when the plant was intentionally sown here in the early to mid-1900s as a way to keep dunes from moving into nearby pastures. Sandy dune ecosystems naturally shift, and ice plant helps hold them in place by setting down roots along viney, ground-hugging stems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ice plant also grows fast — about three feet laterally a year. So whenever ice plant shows up, it can pretty quickly form a dense carpet, holding the soil together underneath.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After decades of growth at Point Reyes, Parsons said, about 60 percent of the coastal area has been taken over by ice plant and another invasive — the equally pernicious European beach grass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this hillside near a beach just north of the lighthouse, Parsons’ team is trying to make space for the native\u003ca href=\"https://www.fws.gov/species/tidestroms-lupine-lupinus-tidestromii\"> Tidestrom’s Lupine\u003c/a>, which is at risk of going extinct.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The seeds of the lupine, another low-to-the-ground dune-lover with lavender flowers, are being eaten by mice, which have great cover in the nearby ice plant and beach grass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>“\u003c/strong>Native deer mice come, and they literally clip off the seams that have the seed on it, and they tug them off. And that’s like a food source for them,” Parsons said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The decline of native plants has a ripple effect on other wildlife. For example, another plant here, the\u003ca href=\"https://calscape.org/Monardella-undulata-(Curlyleaf-Monardella)\"> Curlyleaf Monardella\u003c/a>, is a primary nectar source for the endangered\u003ca href=\"https://www.fws.gov/species/myrtles-silverspot-butterfly-speyeria-zerene-myrtleae\"> Myrtle’s Silverspot\u003c/a> butterfly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990859\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990859\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1284\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL-800x535.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL-1020x682.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL-1536x1027.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Native plants grow in a section of dunes at Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4, 2024, that has been cleared of an invasive ice plant. The top row from left to right: curly-leaved Monardella (Monardella sinuata ssp. nigrescens), coast Indian paintbrush (Castilleja affinis) and beach layia (Layia carnosa). The bottom row from left to right are: mock heather (Ericameria ericoides), Tidestrom’s lupine (Lupinus tidestromii) and California poppy (Eschscholzia californica). This California poppy is the state flower. It’s very common around California, but usually, the flower is solid orange. The ones on the dunes tend to be much more yellow. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>And birds such as the Western Snowy Plover, which are already\u003ca href=\"https://ecos.fws.gov/ecp/species/8035\"> threatened\u003c/a>, are also made vulnerable by the nearby ice plant and beach grass. The short, white-bellied shorebird nests right in the sand on the beach. Their predators, ravens and coyotes, hide out in the thick cover of the invasives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It makes it easier for them to kind of sneak up on the nest,” Parsons said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Carpobrotus edulis\u003c/em> can also change the microbiota of the soil, making it less favorable for native plants even after ice plant is removed. So Parsons says removing an area infested by ice plants can just make space for “secondary invaders, instead of luring native flora back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For all those reasons, the staff at Point Reyes National Seashore choose their battles wisely when deciding which dune habitat to restore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re not going to get rid of all this ice plant,” Parsons said, so they choose areas that aren’t completely overrun. “Because, in a sense, you get more bang for your buck … It’s a lot easier to reestablish a native community.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Ice plant’s origins\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Today, ice plant blankets the California coastline and can also be seen in residential home gardens (where it is more welcome as an ornamental or lawn substitute).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Carpobrotus edulis\u003c/em> is not just a problem in California, though. It’s everywhere: coastal Italy, Spain, Argentina and Australia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ever since people have been buying plants and gardening, plants have been traded across international borders, UC Santa Barbara ecology professor\u003ca href=\"https://www.eemb.ucsb.edu/people/faculty/dantonio\"> Carla D’Antonio said\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People take plants with them when they go places. When the Spaniards came here, they had a whole array of species,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ice plant first came from South Africa, probably in the 1930s, according to D’Antonio.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990222\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990222\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Wetland biologist Lorraine Parsons removes ice plant (Carpobrotus edulis), an invasive species from South Africa, from a section of Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Caltrans and other transportation engineers are\u003ca href=\"https://wildlife.ca.gov/Conservation/Plants/Dont-Plant-Me/Iceplant\"> widely reported\u003c/a> to have planted it around highways, railroads and other landscapes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was planted along railroads to stabilize blowing sand,” D’Antonio said. “It’s probably pretty good at stopping cars that are out of control, you know, and stopping erosion of cliff sides or bank sides onto those highways.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There was a turning point with ice plant in the 1980s and ’90s, D’Antonio said, when natural area managers started not wanting the plant around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People were noticing that they were losing some of their beautiful…endemic coastal poppies and other things because \u003cem>Carpobrotus\u003c/em> was growing everywhere,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Other invasives\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Certainly, ice plant isn’t the only invasive plant crowding out California natives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cal-ipc.org/plants/profile/arundo-donax-profile/\">\u003cem>Arundo Donax\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, a giant reed used for roofing material and musical instruments,\u003ca href=\"https://cisr.ucr.edu/invasive-species/giant-reed\"> was brought to California in the early 1800s\u003c/a>. \u003cem>Arundo Donax\u003c/em> is particularly troublesome. It turns river areas into fuel for fires and grows back even stronger after a blaze. Tens of millions of public dollars have been used to fight its spread.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While thousands of non-native plants have been introduced into California — some of them brought intentionally, others accidentally — most of them don’t alter their environments as much as Arundo and ice plant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It isn’t that many of them that are really causing these big changes,” D’Antonio said. “But the ones that do definitely are changing the resources and the values that we want to have in our ecosystems.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990216\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990216\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ice plant (Carpobrotus edulis), an invasive species from South Africa, grows at Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Preventing ‘invasions’\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The good news is that in the past few decades, ecologists have been trying to establish some boundaries on international plant exchange, D’Antonio said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And more locally, park rangers are using a ‘boots on the ground’ approach to preventing the spread of invasives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rachel Kesel, a senior environmental scientist with California State Parks, is an evangelist for catching plant invaders before they take over entire coastlines. She’s trained park staff all over the Bay Area in early detection work, teaching them how to identify, map, and get rid of invasive plants before they become unmanageable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990219\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990219\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">National Park Service ranger Sierra Frisbie removes ice plant (Carpobrotus edulis), an invasive species from South Africa, from a section of Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>One morning in June, Kesel trained a handful of park managers and volunteers at Armstrong Redwoods State Natural Reserve in the Russian River area of Sonoma County.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She warned them about a wispy green weed called panic veldt grass or\u003ca href=\"https://www.cal-ipc.org/plants/profile/ehrharta-erecta-profile/\"> \u003cem>Ehrharta erect\u003c/em>a\u003c/a>, which she saw crop up all over Mt. Tam when she worked there for the better part of a decade. She doesn’t want the grass to invade these redwoods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It really is probably the highest priority for what to look for,” she said to the group. “It often comes in on our vehicles, mud in our tires and that sort of thing, out of our neighborhoods.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although this little blade of grass looks harmless, Kesel takes it very seriously. It has the potential to take over the forest floor; it can grow in just 2% light as well as on a sunny, soil-deprived beach. The veldt grass grows between other plants, which makes it look messy and hard to pull out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12000167\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12000167\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1475\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass-800x590.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass-1020x752.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass-160x118.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass-1536x1133.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass-1920x1416.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Rachel Kesel, senior environmental scientist for California State Parks, holds up a piece of invasive panic veldtgrass or Ehrharta erecta, in Armstrong Redwoods State Natural Reserve during a training with local park workers. \u003ccite>(Pauline Bartolone/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“It would really change that iconic look of the understory floor and kind of what people are coming into an old-growth redwood forest to see,” Kesel said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hunting down and rooting out invasives may seem like a lot of effort. But to anyone who stands among the redwoods on a hot day and soaks in the beauty of the clover-shaped sorrel on the forest floor, it probably doesn’t seem like too much to ask.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After all, we all manage weeds in our own yards, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you want to get nerdy about the invasive plants in your area, go to \u003ca href=\"https://www.cal-ipc.org/\">Cal-IPC.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’re inspired to plant California natives in your neighborhood, \u003ca href=\"https://calscape.org/\">Calscape offers design ideas and resources\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> When you think of quintessential California experiences, driving down Highway 1 is pretty tough to beat. It was one of the first things Tom McMahon did when he first visited the Bay Area in 2016.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom McMahon: \u003c/strong>I rented a car, and I drove from San Francisco down to Seacliff. And on the way, I actually stopped along a few spots. And one of them was like, Poplar Beach. And, you know, one of the things that kind of jumped out was all these green plants with the purple and yellow flowers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> What he was seeing was ice plant — a fleshy green succulent with finger-like, three-sided leaves. It grows low to the ground and spreads out over large areas, like a carpet. In spring its pink, purple, or yellow flowers burst open — its petals spreading like little fireworks. Quite frankly, it’s gorgeous! But it’s got a dark side. McMahon started studying plants with his 5-year-old daughter recently and learned this charming-looking plant is invasive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom McMahon:\u003c/strong> And this has been something that I’ve seen everywhere, and it’s part of my expectation of what the Pacific coast is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> McMahon lives in California now, and he and his daughter go on walks and see ice plant all over — it’s often used in landscaping in place of grass. She’s been asking: “If it’s invasive, why did someone put it there?” and McMahon doesn’t have a great answer. So, he asked Bay Curious for an assist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom McMahon:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I’d like to know, why are the ice plants here, who brought them here? What was their purpose? And what other things do we see every day that are actually invasive and potentially harming our local plant life and wildlife?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This week on Bay Curious, we’re delving into the world of invasive plants. We’ll answer McMahon’s questions about ice plant and explore a few other troublesome flora. That’s all just head, stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> To answer Tom McMahon’s questions about ice plant and other notorious invasives. KQED producer Pauline Bartolone got really in the weeds, hardy har har. Enjoy the ride.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Ice plant has many monikers … Carpobrotus edulis, highway ice plant, or simply sour fig. If you’ve ever set eyes on a California beach, even from a distance, you’ve seen it. From as far north as Crescent City all the way down to San Diego. When it comes to invasive species in California, ice plant is iconic. And so are the areas it invades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[Wind sounds and crashing waves]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Like the Point Reyes seashore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons: \u003c/strong>So that’s all ice plant! \u003cem>[laughs]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Oh wow, okay, that whole ridge …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons: \u003c/strong>That whole ridge is ice plant over there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>I went to the rolling dunes of Point Reyes to meet Lorraine Parsons. She’s a wetland ecologist with the National Seashore. There are miles and miles of ice plant here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons:\u003c/strong> If you drive Sir Francis Drake all the way out to the lighthouse and you look out toward the ocean, many areas are just this dense carpet of ice plant and literally no other plant species.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Parsons is here today with around 10 employees and volunteers to tear out ice plant uphill from a beach near the lighthouse. Here, they still have a chance to protect some vulnerable wildlife.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons:\u003c/strong> And we still have some native plant species, but they’re being pushed out by the ice plant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> National seashore staff have been organizing work parties like this for 25 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[sound of plants rustling, breaking]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danna Ojeda:\u003c/strong> Oh, it’s a pretty easy plant to pull.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Biotechnician Danna Ojeda is on her hands and knees ripping out ice plant, drawing her hand back like she’s pulling a plug out of a wall. Technically, you could kill ice plant with herbicide, but that can affect other plants and water sources. Ojeda says the trickiest part about tearing it out is just making sure you don’t remove other plants too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danna Ojeda:\u003c/strong> So you just pull it, and since it’s sand, it comes right off. Just make sure the roots don’t go in between any of the plants so you don’t accidentally bring them up to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Park ranger Sierra Frisbie adds her ice plant debris to a big pile.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sierra Frisbie: \u003c/strong>During a volunteer event, we try to have a competition of who can get the longest piece of ice plant and you’ll end up with something, you know, as long as your body and proudly hold it up like a big fish or something. It’s kinda your catch of the day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>While it’s a gorgeous sunny day out here, this is a beast of a project and a permanent management problem. Parsons says ice plant was actually planted here in the early to mid-1900s as a way to keep dunes, which naturally shift, from moving into nearby pastures. Ice plant is a good soil stabilizer. But it grows laterally about three feet a year. So after decades of growth, Parsons says, about 60 percent of the coastal area in Point Reyes has been taken over by ice plant and another invasive — the equally pernicious European beach grass. They’re struggling to get rid of it in areas where endangered native plants like Tidestrom’s lupine are at risk of going extinct.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons: \u003c/strong>So this is the Tidestrom’s lupine here … Again, this is a short-lived perennial plant species in the pea family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Tidestrom’s lupine is another low-to-the-ground beach-loving plant with little lavender flowers. But here, its seeds are being eaten by mice, which hide out in the nearby ice plant and European beach grass. In many areas, it hasn’t been growing back\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons: \u003c/strong>It has historically stretched from Sonoma County near Goat Rock all the way down to Monterey. And, you know, over that time, populations have been lost.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>The decline of native plants has a ripple effect on other wildlife in an ecosystem. For example, another plant here, the Curlyleaf Monardella, is a primary nectar source for an endangered butterfly. And birds such as the snowy plover, a tiny white-bellied thing, are also threatened. They nest right in the sand on the beach. And the nearby ice plant and beach grass provide cover for their predators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"margin: 0px;padding: 0px\">\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons:\u003c/strong> So, like, ravens can be in there obviously like coyotes, other animals like that, it makes it easier for them to kind of sneak up on the nest there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>And the bad news about ice plant gets worse. The invasive can also change the soil conditions, so it is less favorable for native plants even after ice plant is removed. For all those reasons, when it comes to these eradication parties, Parsons says they have to choose their battles wisely. They don’t even bother with the completely overrun areas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons:\u003c/strong> We realize we’re not going to get rid of all this beach grass, and we’re not going to get rid of all this ice plant. So I think we’re just focusing on these like moderately to sparsely invaded areas because, in a sense, you get more bang for your buck. You’ve already got the native plants here. It’s a lot easier to get, to reestablish a native community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Today, ice plant blankets the California coastline. It’s not just a problem in California, though, it’s everywhere: coastal Italy, Spain, Argentina, Australia. UC Santa Barbara ecology professor Carla D’Antonio says that’s not surprising.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carla D’Antonio: \u003c/strong>People take plants with them when they go places. When the Spaniards came here, they had a whole array of species that they brought.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>D’Antonio says there isn’t a lot of documentation about the beginnings of Carpobrotus edulis in the U.S. but there’s a consensus about its origin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carla D’Antonio: \u003c/strong>It came from South Africa. It appears to have come probably, in the 1930s. It was planted along railroads to stabilize blowing sand. It was planted along highways. It’s probably pretty good at stopping cars that are out of control, you know, and stopping erosion of cliff sides or bank sides onto those highways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Ice plant’s long and viny stems stay close to the ground as they grow, and set down many different roots along the way. The tangley mat keeps soil together underneath. That’s why Caltrans and other engineers planted it around highways, railroads and other landscapes. But when managers of natural areas like Asilomar in Monterey started getting concerned about ice plant, D’Antonio decided to do her doctoral research on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carla D’Antonio: \u003c/strong>Awareness really started to grow that this thing was showing up everywhere. People were noticing that they were losing some of their beautiful kind of endemic coastal poppies and other things because carpobrotus was growing everywhere.\u003cem>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nPauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Certainly, ice plant isn’t the only non-native plant bent on world domination. Our question asker, Tom McMahon wanted to know about others on the most-wanted list. I’d say Arundo donax would definitely be in that category. The giant reed was brought to California in the early 1800s and used for roofing material and musical instruments. Arundo donax is particularly gnarly, turning river areas into fuel for fire and growing back even stronger after a blaze. Tens of millions of public dollars have been used to fight it. All in all, D’Antonio says, thousands of non-native plants have been introduced into California. Some of them intentionally, others accidentally. Most of them play nice with native plants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carla D’Antonio:\u003c/strong> So it isn’t that many of them that are really causing these big changes. But the ones that do definitely are changing the resources and the values that we want to have in our ecosystems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> So how do we stop those world-dominating plants? D’Antonio says for the past few decades, ecologists have been trying to establish some boundaries on international plant exchange. And more locally, park rangers are using boots on the ground approaches to preventing the spread of invasives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel: \u003c/strong>So I brought a couple of things with me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>People like Rachel Kesel in Sonoma County. The park ranger is an evangelist for catching plant invaders early before they take over entire coastlines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel: \u003c/strong>So I think everybody probably knows that all folks engaged in land management spend a lot of time and money on invasive plants. And what the early detection of invasive plants approach does is try to shift some of that, hopefully, new investment of time and money that you are already spending to plants that are newer on the landscape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Kesel has trained park staff all over the Bay Area to find invasive plants early. Today, she’s in Armstrong Redwoods State Reserve in the Russian River warning a handful of park staff and volunteers about a wispy green weed called panic veldt grass, or Ehrharta erecta.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel: \u003c/strong>It often comes in on our vehicles, mud in our tires and that sort of thing out of our neighborhoods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Kesel takes this little blade of grass very seriously. She saw Ehrharta crop up all over Mt. Tam, where she worked for the better part of a decade. This thing sounds like it could withstand an apocalypse. It can grow on a forest floor in just 2 percent light, or a sunny, soil deprived beach. It grows between other plants, which makes it hard to pull out. And Kesel says it just looks messy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel: \u003c/strong>It would really change that iconic look of the understory floor and kind of what people are coming into an old-growth redwood forest to see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[footsteps]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Kesel takes a couple of park personnel out on a detection walk, to show them how they can identify the plant, and map it, so scientists can track its footprint over time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> Go, team! Now, when I come upon something like this, I’m always gonna take a twirl around it…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Is that it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> No, that is a melaka.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> It’s a native grass, thankfully. But. Good eye, you’re noticing grasses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Apparently, I can’t tell the difference between blades of grass, but Kesel seems to have developed a hawk eye for this work. When we did come across the pesky blades of grass, she broke out a plastic bag to transport the undesirables.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> I know I look paranoid, but it is dropping its seed, which is why I have it in the bag.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[rustling of plastic bag]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> So now you go in the bag, my friend …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Then, she holds up the blade of grass like it’s a contaminated Q-tip so the park workers can get a closer look. She takes out her mini magnifying glass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> So, all right. If we look at the base. Of course, this one isn’t very red because, like I said, color is a fickle character.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Finally, she shows the park workers how to map other invasives using a program on her phone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel: \u003c/strong>Go to my location. Why are you being so dumb? I talk back to my device a lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> During this trip, part of me felt like, wow, what a lot of effort to remove just a little blade of grass. But on the way out of Armstrong that day, I took a moment to stand under the shade of the redwoods and soak in the beauty. The forest floor was covered in this really pretty, delicate-looking sorrel. It’s a clover-like plant a few inches off the ground. That’s when it struck me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> I can really see why people want to preserve this place. The air is so still and soft, and I imagine much cooler than outside this redwood forest. I could spend all day here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>When it comes to preserving that feeling of the redwoods, managing invasives doesn’t seem like too much to ask. After all, we all manage weeds in our own yards, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That story was produced by Pauline Bartolone. Big thanks to Tom McMahon and his five-year-old daughter for the question. And to the California invasive plant council for their expertise on this story. If you want to learn more about invasive plants or get involved in one of those removal work parties – we’ve got a lot of resources for you online at BayCurious.org. We’ll drop a link in our show notes too. Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. You can support our show by becoming a member! Give today at donate.kqed.org.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made by Amanda Font, Olivia Allen-Price, Christopher Beale, Ana De Almeida Amaral. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED family. I’m Olivia Allen-Price, thank you for listening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "what-will-it-take-to-improve-ev-infrastructure-in-california",
"title": "What Will It Take to Improve EV Infrastructure in California?",
"publishDate": 1723111242,
"format": "standard",
"headTitle": "What Will It Take to Improve EV Infrastructure in California? | KQED",
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"term": 33523,
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You may have heard some horror stories about electric vehicle charging — long lines, lengthy waits, broken units. Sometimes even\u003cem> finding \u003c/em>a charging station is a challenge. When your car’s low on charge but no charger is available, it’s stressful. Maybe you’re halfway between San Francisco and Los Angeles and you’re stuck waiting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s one of the big things stopping Bay Curious listener Kelly Lindberg from buying an electric car right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m hoping that by 2030, between having some years to save up and the technology getting better and cheaper, maybe that’s around the time [it] could work for our family,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the meantime, Lindberg has an idea to help alleviate the charging congestion. She’s noticed a lot of empty former gas station sites around her neighborhood in Oakland and wondered, “Would it be a good idea to turn some of these spaces into electric car charging stations?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2020, Gov. Gavin Newsom set a goal for the state to ban the sale of new gas-powered vehicles by the year 2035. So even if you’ve got a gas-powered car, and this isn’t a problem you’re facing currently, it may be soon.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>How to set up a charging station\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To find out what goes into installing a new charging station, I met up with Jonah Eidus, who oversees real estate development for electric car charging company EVgo. The company has hundreds of charging stalls across the Bay Area and thousands across the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In general, when we’re installing new chargers, we’re looking to be in high-traffic areas where the chargers will be used for about 15 to 45 minutes,” Eidus said. “And that means we also want to have amenities nearby so people have something to do during those 15 to 45 minutes.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since charging your car takes longer than pumping gas, stations are designed with the surroundings in mind. They aim to install stations in the parking lot of a Safeway, for example, or close to a coffee shop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are many other considerations too, Eidus said, including the availability of parking stalls. Is there enough space for many cars to park? The goal, after all, is to build as many charging stalls per site as possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Does the site integrate well into the electrical grid? The product they are ultimately selling is electricity, so they have to make sure that a site \u003cem>has \u003c/em>the electricity to sell at an affordable price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Additionally, is the charging station set up near those who need it most, including those who live in apartment complexes and don’t have the option to charge from their own garage? There are also city zoning regulations and safety considerations to take into account.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s not even half of what goes into establishing a charging site. In fact, EVgo has a mapping algorithm that integrates 27 different factors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Suffice to say, it is a fairly sophisticated process that we go through,” Eidus said. “When a site goes live, a lot of thought and a lot of data has gone into the decision to build that site.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Improving reliability and keeping up with demand\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>California — particularly the Bay Area — \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/12/us/bay-area-electric-vehicles.html\">leads the nation\u003c/a> in electric vehicle adoption. To meet that growing demand, California has to build 1 million new chargers by the end of 2030, \u003ca href=\"https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/24795161/assembly-bill-2127-second-electric-vehicle-charging-infrastructure-second-assessment-revised-staff-report.pdf#page=52\">according to the state’s own projections (PDF)\u003c/a>. Some experts say \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/environment/climate-change/2024/07/california-electric-car-chargers-unrealistic-goals/\">that’s not feasible\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I would say we’re tight on the number of chargers,” said Carleen Cullen, co-founder of the environmental nonprofit Cool the Earth and a former transportation advisor to Gov. Newsom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not only are they in short supply, the ones we do have are not always reliable, Cullen said. She helped conduct a study a few years ago to test the reliability of charging stations in the Bay Area and found that a quarter of them weren’t functional, meaning the screens were broken, the payment system didn’t work or the equipment was flawed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cullen said while the infrastructure has improved a lot since then, there’s still not enough of it — despite the fact that \u003ca href=\"https://smartasset.com/data-studies/ev-chargers-2023\">California is outpacing other states\u003c/a> in both EV adoption and infrastructure. And in order to reach Newsom’s goal, we need consumers, charging companies, EV manufacturers, local governments and utility companies to work together, Cullen said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We need to move the adoption of EVs forward, we need to move the number of charging ports available as well, and we need to move the grid capacity as well,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11999354\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11999354\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Tashinda Richardson of Oakland plugs in her rented electric vehicle at an EVgo Fast Charging station in Oakland on Jan. 29. Richardson said it can be hard to find a charger when she needs one. Sometimes, she said, chargers won’t work or the plug will get stuck in the car. \u003ccite>(Kathryn Styer Martínez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A big hold-up right now, according to Cullen, lies with PG&E.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s a huge lag time between when the charging station vendor requests the power and when PG&E actually delivers it,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For a charging station to operate, it needs to be hooked up to the power grid. That’s where PG&E comes in. And they won’t just let you set up a charging station anywhere. They have to be able to deliver enough power to that site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Is the section of the grid you’re trying to connect to also connected to a big manufacturing plant, for example? Are your neighbors using a lot of electricity during certain times of the day? Then the available power is likely spoken for. Does that portion of the grid rely heavily on solar power? Then the chargers may not work when the sun goes down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We have over 600,000 EVs in our service territory. And we’ve seen EV adoption grow at about 26% of the compound annual growth rate over the last few years. That’s a significant amount of load that we’re seeing on the system,” said David Almeida, a manager within PG&E’s clean energy transportation group.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Almeida said the utility company underestimated electricity demand, and as a result, it doesn’t have the infrastructure to support the rapidly growing EV industry right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But they’re working on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are building out a forecast that doesn’t look at necessarily just historical load, but it looks at where we anticipate load growth,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The goal is to make electric car charging stations faster to build and more reliable once they’re up and running.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite all the work needed to bolster this transportation system overhaul, Almeida said it’s ultimately worth it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Right now, California’s transportation system is by far the \u003ca href=\"https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/ghg-inventory-data\">largest contributor\u003c/a> to our greenhouse gas emissions. Transitioning away from gas-powered cars is critical to mitigating the impacts of climate change, and EVs are already helping to do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A recent \u003ca href=\"https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.3c09642\">study\u003c/a> by scientists at UC Berkeley showed EV adoption in the Bay Area has already reduced our carbon emissions by almost 2%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ve been a believer from the very beginning,” Almeida said. “And it’s just very cool to see a lot of this prove out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay curious. And today we’re going on a little road trip.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of a car driving\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Here we go. So we are driving around San Francisco in my Volkswagen E-golf, and it’s an electric vehicle. And we’re looking for a place to charge. And I’m here with Dana Cronin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>And how do you normally find a place to charge in the city?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> It’s pretty rare that I have to find a place to charge because I mostly charge at home. But when I do have to find a place, I pull up an app on my phone and …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Safely, of course, pulled over by the side of the road.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Exactly. Let’s actually pull over real quick up here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(sound of car decelerating)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Okay, so I pull up this app on my phone and what it does is it loads all sorts of different chargers that are nearby that are owned by all sorts of different companies. The numbers mean how many charging stations are in each of these locations. Of the one that’s nearby, it looks like one is out of service; four are currently being used … but looks like one is available.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> 0.2 miles away. That’s not too bad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Yeah, let’s give it a shot. Okay, so the charger is somewhere in this enormous parking lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> You know that there’s a spot open right now because of your app, right? Or is it possible that it’s there but someone’s using it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I would … I would say I don’t feel 100% confident based on the app.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> There’s a line of Teslas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So, let’s go and see if the non-Tesla chargers are near the Tesla ones, too. Oh, and here we are to the right. … This is also Tesla charging. Just kidding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We drove around the parking lot for a while but then finally found the chargers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> So, it’s full. (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> There was a little dispute with another customer over who was there first. It was totally us, but we let it go. Eventually, another stall opened up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Charging port here, plug it in and it looks like this one gives me the option to pay by the EVgo app, or I can pay by credit card, which is actually great. It does not seem … Oh, there we go, there we go. Okay, let’s remove the card … (pause) authorization declined. I will try a different card payment. (pause) Authorized!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Step one: Complete! (laughing)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Step 7,962: pay for the charging. (laughing)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Generally, I would say this was not super easy, and yet it’s pretty much totally full.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/strong>: Yeah, I mean, it’s not easy. I feel really lucky most of the time. I charge at home because it is, you know, it’s a pain and it’s a little stressful, especially if you are really low on charge. Like I’ve been in situations where I’m really sweating it out because I go to one charging station and like the screen is broken or the Wi-Fi isn’t working, or sometimes they’ll have these in paid parking garages and they don’t tell you that. And it’s like $30 just to get in the garage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Like it feels like you do have to have an at-home charger right now for this to be convenient and conducive to your lifestyle. Like, I can’t imagine, like fully relying on this, you know. I, for one, will probably just stick with my Subaru for now. My gas-powered Subaru, for now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> On today’s episode of Bay Curious, we dive into the world of electric vehicles. I love driving mine, but as you saw, it’s not perfect. California currently dominates the EV market, and the state has a lofty goal of banning the sale of new gas-powered vehicles by 2035. So if you’re not driving an EV yet, you may be soon. Is your community set up for it? Is the Bay area’s current infrastructure matching up with the demand? We’ll get into all that just after a quick break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>SPONSOR\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>For this episode, I’m tossing to my co-pilot … reporter Dana Cronin … to explain what’s going on with the Bay Area’s EV infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Like a lot of Bay Area residents … maybe you included … I want my next car to be electric. But if my 2012 Subaru Outback died tomorrow … I’m not sure I’d be ready to make the switch. Especially after that drive with Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Kelly Lindberg … feels the same way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kelly Lindberg:\u003c/strong> You hear those stories in the news sometimes about, like, the drive between, like, Las Vegas and Los Angeles. You know, people going in their Teslas and having a super long line at the charging station.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Kelly works for a climate startup accelerator, and she’s thought, “There’s gotta be a solution to this problem.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One came to her… as she was driving through her neighborhood in Oakland. She’s noticed a lot of abandoned gas stations around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kelly Lindberg:\u003c/strong> Would it be a good idea to maybe turn some of these spaces into electric car charging stations?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>I mean … sounds like a good idea to me. I, too, live in Oakland and have noticed quite a few empty lots. Whether they’re former gas stations, convenience stores, or storefronts … it seems like there’s plenty of empty space for charging stations to set up shop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But, to do that, you first need a charging company. So, I met with one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(sounds of loud road noise)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Jonah Eidus is wearing a navy-logoed polo and is parked at an EVgo charging station. He oversees EVgo’s real estate department.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>EVgo has hundreds of charging stalls in the Bay Area … the one we’re meeting at is in Oakland’s Fruitvale neighborhood … right off of 580 on Fruitvale Avenue. It’s set up at a Shell gas station.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> So this site is an eight-stall, fast-charging site, capable of delivering up to 350 kW to each car. And it is definitely one of the more popular stations in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>That’s enough to charge most modern EVs in less than 20 minutes. And it is popular! Over the course of our interview … all eight stalls were full almost the whole time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Without wasting any time, I posed Kelly’s question. Could empty lots and gas stations near her house get setups like this one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> In general, when we’re installing new chargers, we’re looking to be in high-traffic areas where the chargers will be used for about 15 to 45 minutes. And that means we also want to have amenities nearby so people have something to do during those 15 to 45 minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>It takes longer to charge your car’s battery than it does to pump gas. So this charging station, for example, is right next to a Peet’s Coffee and a Farmer Joe’s grocery store. A perfect place to run some errands while you wait.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As we’re talking, Dave Robinson drives up in his brand new 2023 KIA EV6, backs into a stall, and plugs in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>What do you plan to do while you wait?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dave Robinson:\u003c/strong> Just hang out. You know, if it’s going to be a while, there’s coffee shops and everything else around. So it’s easy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Convenience! It’s a big factor in selecting a charging site, Jonah says. But there are lots of other factors, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus: \u003c/strong>Availability of parking stalls, grid interconnection, forecasted charging demand, electricity rates and importantly, multifamily housing density nearby the charging station.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>OK … let’s take those one at a time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> Availability of parking stalls …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Meaning … is there enough space for cars to park here? The goal is to build as many charging stalls as possible per site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> … grid interconnection …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>This one is super important. Because after all, the product they are ultimately selling … is electricity. And they need to make sure that a specific site HAS the electricity to sell\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> … forecasted charging demand … electricity rates …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>How many customers do they expect, and how much will those customers have to pay to charge? The cost of electricity can \u003cem>literally \u003c/em>vary block to block.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>And … EVGo is a for-profit company after all … so it needs to pencil out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> … and importantly, multifamily housing density nearby the charging station.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Is the charging station set up near those who need it the most? Those who live in apartment complexes, for example, don’t have the option to charge from their own garage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s not even \u003cem>half \u003c/em>the considerations that go into establishing a charging site. There’s also things like a city’s zoning regulations … and safety considerations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In fact, EVgo has a mapping algorithm that integrates 27 different factors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus: \u003c/strong>Suffice to say, it is a fairly sophisticated process that we go through. And when a site goes live, a lot of thought and a lot of data has gone into the decision to build that site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Jonah couldn’t say exactly whether the specific abandoned gas stations in Kelly’s neighborhood could be converted to charging sites … I guess that’s a question for the algorithm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(music)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem> \u003c/em>So that’s how companies choose specific charging sites … and avoid others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But at the \u003cem>heart \u003c/em>of Kelly’s question … is a bigger question. Clearly, we need MORE charging stations … whether at abandoned gas stations … or near coffee shops and grocery stores. So … why hasn’t the electric vehicle charging infrastructure kept up with demand?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To answer that question, I met up with Carleen Cullen. She’s the co-founder of the environmental nonprofit Cool the Earth and a former transportation advisor to Governor Newsom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(sounds of a busy parking lot)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>We meet up at another charging station … this one in the parking lot of a Safeway in Mill Valley. We’re chatting next to Carleen’s Chevy Bolt … which is parked in a stall, ready to charge … when, all of a sudden, another EV driver pulls up behind us and asks how long we plan to be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>I guess that’s part of the challenge is that there’s so few chargers that we have someone waiting on us here waiting for a charge, somewhat impatiently. So we’re going to go ahead and get charging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen:\u003c/strong> Let’s get started.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Carleen swipes her credit card, pulls the charger around to her car, plugs in, and it starts charging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(sound of the high-pitched hum from the charger)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen: \u003c/strong>So when you hear that great hum, you know that that’s happening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Carleen is somewhat of an electric vehicle evangelist … an E-V-vangelist … if you will. Half the time we spent together I felt like I was in an EV infomercial. But she’s not naive. She knows the current infrastructure is flawed. In fact, she did a study a few years ago where she tested the reliability of charging stations in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen: \u003c/strong>And we found that about a quarter of the stations in the Bay area weren’t functional.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Meaning the screens were broken or the payment system didn’t work or the equipment was flawed. She says the infrastructure has improved a lot since then, but there’s still not enough of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen: \u003c/strong>I would say we’re tight on the number of chargers. Yeah, we’re definitely tight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>And that’s in part because … what we’re talking about here … is a MAJOR overhaul of an entire transportation system. In 2020, Governor Newsom set a goal to ban the sale of new gas-powered vehicles in California by the year 2035. And California is outpacing other states in both EV adoption and infrastructure by a long shot. We have more chargers than any other state. But in order to reach that lofty goal … Carleen says we need three things:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen:\u003c/strong> We need to move the adoption of EVs forward. We need to move the number of charging ports available as well, and we need to move the grid capacity as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>These things all have to happen simultaneously. Consumers, charging companies, EV manufacturers, utility companies, local governments … everyone has to work in concert for this to work. Carleen says, right now, the utility companies aren’t necessarily pulling their weight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen: \u003c/strong>There’s a huge lag time between when the station, the charging station vendor requests the power and when PG&E actually delivers it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>For a charging station to operate, it needs to be hooked up to our power grid. That’s where PG&E comes in. And they won’t just let you set up a charging station ANYWHERE. They have to be able to deliver enough power to that site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Is the section of the grid you’re trying to connect to also connected to a big manufacturing plant … for example? Are your neighbors using a lot of electricity during certain times of the day? Then the available power is likely spoken for. Does that portion of the grid rely heavily on solar power? Then the chargers may not work when the sun goes down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These are critical considerations, says David Almeida … a manager within PG&E’s clean energy transportation group. And he says Carleen’s critique is fair. He says, yes, the utility is definitely still playing catch-up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Almeida:\u003c/strong> So we have over 600,000 EVs in our service territory. And we’ve seen EV adoption grow at about 26% of the compound annual growth rate over the last few years. That’s a significant amount of load that we’re seeing on the system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>He also says … they didn’t plan for that increased demand for electricity. In fact, they UNDERestimated it … and, as a result, they don’t have the infrastructure to support it right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But, he says, they’re working on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Almeida: \u003c/strong>We are building out a forecast that doesn’t look at necessarily just historical load, but it looks at where we anticipate load growth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>He says their goal is to make electric car charging stations faster to build and more reliable once they’re up and running.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>This all sounds like a lot of work. Overhauling our entire state’s transportation system … building thousands and thousands of new charging stations … getting utility companies on board … I’m exhausted just thinking about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But it’s important to remember WHY we’re doing this. Right now, California’s transportation system is BY FAR the largest contributor to our greenhouse gas emissions. Transitioning away from gas-powered cars is critical to mitigating the impacts of climate change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And Evs are already helping to do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A recent study by scientists at UC Berkeley showed EV adoption in the Bay Area has already reduced our carbon emissions by almost 2 percent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, obviously, to keep up that progress … the system has to work for EVERYONE. And I’m not sure we’re there yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music sneaks in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> What do you think, Olivia? Any more sympathy for the cause?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> You know, yeah. I didn’t realize there were so many hurdles to getting new charging stations online. I feel really lucky that I am able to charge my car at home and so this isn’t an issue I have to deal with very often. But for folks who can’t charge overnight where they live — that’s a huge hurdle. And I’m sure it’s a non-starter for some people! It’s got to get better.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Yeah … 2035 is not THAT far away … and if we’re gonna reach that goal, we’re going to need more charging stations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m kind of hoping my Subaru lasts just a couple more years …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Dana Cronin — thank you!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was KQED’s Dana Cronin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This story would not have been possible without our question-asker, Kelly Lindberg. That’s because you, our dear audience, decide what we cover by submitting questions — and then voting on which ones we should answer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We have a new voting round-up at BayCurious.org with three enticing questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 1:\u003c/strong> Why did Oakland International Airport become San Francisco Bay Oakland International Airport, giving us two very confusingly similar-sounding airports?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 2:\u003c/strong> I remember going to the Berkeley dump, now Cesar Chavez Park, with my dad in the 1970s. It was pretty wild. It’d be really interesting to learn more about its evolution from dump to park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 3:\u003c/strong> I was walking my dog on Thornton Beach on the Daly City/SF border and found a really long tunnel coming out of the hillside around some abandoned piers. Any idea what it is?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Voting is so easy! Just grab your phone, pull up BayCurious.org, scroll to our voting round and click on your favorite question! No registering or emails or phone numbers or anything complicated. We try to make it easy on you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Amanda Font, Olivia Allen-Price, Christopher Beale. Special thanks to Laura Klivans, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You may have heard some horror stories about electric vehicle charging — long lines, lengthy waits, broken units. Sometimes even\u003cem> finding \u003c/em>a charging station is a challenge. When your car’s low on charge but no charger is available, it’s stressful. Maybe you’re halfway between San Francisco and Los Angeles and you’re stuck waiting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s one of the big things stopping Bay Curious listener Kelly Lindberg from buying an electric car right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m hoping that by 2030, between having some years to save up and the technology getting better and cheaper, maybe that’s around the time [it] could work for our family,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the meantime, Lindberg has an idea to help alleviate the charging congestion. She’s noticed a lot of empty former gas station sites around her neighborhood in Oakland and wondered, “Would it be a good idea to turn some of these spaces into electric car charging stations?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2020, Gov. Gavin Newsom set a goal for the state to ban the sale of new gas-powered vehicles by the year 2035. So even if you’ve got a gas-powered car, and this isn’t a problem you’re facing currently, it may be soon.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>How to set up a charging station\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To find out what goes into installing a new charging station, I met up with Jonah Eidus, who oversees real estate development for electric car charging company EVgo. The company has hundreds of charging stalls across the Bay Area and thousands across the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In general, when we’re installing new chargers, we’re looking to be in high-traffic areas where the chargers will be used for about 15 to 45 minutes,” Eidus said. “And that means we also want to have amenities nearby so people have something to do during those 15 to 45 minutes.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since charging your car takes longer than pumping gas, stations are designed with the surroundings in mind. They aim to install stations in the parking lot of a Safeway, for example, or close to a coffee shop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are many other considerations too, Eidus said, including the availability of parking stalls. Is there enough space for many cars to park? The goal, after all, is to build as many charging stalls per site as possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Does the site integrate well into the electrical grid? The product they are ultimately selling is electricity, so they have to make sure that a site \u003cem>has \u003c/em>the electricity to sell at an affordable price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Additionally, is the charging station set up near those who need it most, including those who live in apartment complexes and don’t have the option to charge from their own garage? There are also city zoning regulations and safety considerations to take into account.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s not even half of what goes into establishing a charging site. In fact, EVgo has a mapping algorithm that integrates 27 different factors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Suffice to say, it is a fairly sophisticated process that we go through,” Eidus said. “When a site goes live, a lot of thought and a lot of data has gone into the decision to build that site.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Improving reliability and keeping up with demand\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>California — particularly the Bay Area — \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/12/us/bay-area-electric-vehicles.html\">leads the nation\u003c/a> in electric vehicle adoption. To meet that growing demand, California has to build 1 million new chargers by the end of 2030, \u003ca href=\"https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/24795161/assembly-bill-2127-second-electric-vehicle-charging-infrastructure-second-assessment-revised-staff-report.pdf#page=52\">according to the state’s own projections (PDF)\u003c/a>. Some experts say \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/environment/climate-change/2024/07/california-electric-car-chargers-unrealistic-goals/\">that’s not feasible\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I would say we’re tight on the number of chargers,” said Carleen Cullen, co-founder of the environmental nonprofit Cool the Earth and a former transportation advisor to Gov. Newsom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not only are they in short supply, the ones we do have are not always reliable, Cullen said. She helped conduct a study a few years ago to test the reliability of charging stations in the Bay Area and found that a quarter of them weren’t functional, meaning the screens were broken, the payment system didn’t work or the equipment was flawed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cullen said while the infrastructure has improved a lot since then, there’s still not enough of it — despite the fact that \u003ca href=\"https://smartasset.com/data-studies/ev-chargers-2023\">California is outpacing other states\u003c/a> in both EV adoption and infrastructure. And in order to reach Newsom’s goal, we need consumers, charging companies, EV manufacturers, local governments and utility companies to work together, Cullen said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We need to move the adoption of EVs forward, we need to move the number of charging ports available as well, and we need to move the grid capacity as well,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11999354\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11999354\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Tashinda Richardson of Oakland plugs in her rented electric vehicle at an EVgo Fast Charging station in Oakland on Jan. 29. Richardson said it can be hard to find a charger when she needs one. Sometimes, she said, chargers won’t work or the plug will get stuck in the car. \u003ccite>(Kathryn Styer Martínez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A big hold-up right now, according to Cullen, lies with PG&E.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s a huge lag time between when the charging station vendor requests the power and when PG&E actually delivers it,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For a charging station to operate, it needs to be hooked up to the power grid. That’s where PG&E comes in. And they won’t just let you set up a charging station anywhere. They have to be able to deliver enough power to that site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Is the section of the grid you’re trying to connect to also connected to a big manufacturing plant, for example? Are your neighbors using a lot of electricity during certain times of the day? Then the available power is likely spoken for. Does that portion of the grid rely heavily on solar power? Then the chargers may not work when the sun goes down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We have over 600,000 EVs in our service territory. And we’ve seen EV adoption grow at about 26% of the compound annual growth rate over the last few years. That’s a significant amount of load that we’re seeing on the system,” said David Almeida, a manager within PG&E’s clean energy transportation group.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Almeida said the utility company underestimated electricity demand, and as a result, it doesn’t have the infrastructure to support the rapidly growing EV industry right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But they’re working on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are building out a forecast that doesn’t look at necessarily just historical load, but it looks at where we anticipate load growth,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The goal is to make electric car charging stations faster to build and more reliable once they’re up and running.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite all the work needed to bolster this transportation system overhaul, Almeida said it’s ultimately worth it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Right now, California’s transportation system is by far the \u003ca href=\"https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/ghg-inventory-data\">largest contributor\u003c/a> to our greenhouse gas emissions. Transitioning away from gas-powered cars is critical to mitigating the impacts of climate change, and EVs are already helping to do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A recent \u003ca href=\"https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.3c09642\">study\u003c/a> by scientists at UC Berkeley showed EV adoption in the Bay Area has already reduced our carbon emissions by almost 2%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ve been a believer from the very beginning,” Almeida said. “And it’s just very cool to see a lot of this prove out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay curious. And today we’re going on a little road trip.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of a car driving\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Here we go. So we are driving around San Francisco in my Volkswagen E-golf, and it’s an electric vehicle. And we’re looking for a place to charge. And I’m here with Dana Cronin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>And how do you normally find a place to charge in the city?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> It’s pretty rare that I have to find a place to charge because I mostly charge at home. But when I do have to find a place, I pull up an app on my phone and …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Safely, of course, pulled over by the side of the road.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Exactly. Let’s actually pull over real quick up here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(sound of car decelerating)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Okay, so I pull up this app on my phone and what it does is it loads all sorts of different chargers that are nearby that are owned by all sorts of different companies. The numbers mean how many charging stations are in each of these locations. Of the one that’s nearby, it looks like one is out of service; four are currently being used … but looks like one is available.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> 0.2 miles away. That’s not too bad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Yeah, let’s give it a shot. Okay, so the charger is somewhere in this enormous parking lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> You know that there’s a spot open right now because of your app, right? Or is it possible that it’s there but someone’s using it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I would … I would say I don’t feel 100% confident based on the app.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> There’s a line of Teslas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So, let’s go and see if the non-Tesla chargers are near the Tesla ones, too. Oh, and here we are to the right. … This is also Tesla charging. Just kidding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We drove around the parking lot for a while but then finally found the chargers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> So, it’s full. (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> There was a little dispute with another customer over who was there first. It was totally us, but we let it go. Eventually, another stall opened up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Charging port here, plug it in and it looks like this one gives me the option to pay by the EVgo app, or I can pay by credit card, which is actually great. It does not seem … Oh, there we go, there we go. Okay, let’s remove the card … (pause) authorization declined. I will try a different card payment. (pause) Authorized!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Step one: Complete! (laughing)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Step 7,962: pay for the charging. (laughing)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Generally, I would say this was not super easy, and yet it’s pretty much totally full.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/strong>: Yeah, I mean, it’s not easy. I feel really lucky most of the time. I charge at home because it is, you know, it’s a pain and it’s a little stressful, especially if you are really low on charge. Like I’ve been in situations where I’m really sweating it out because I go to one charging station and like the screen is broken or the Wi-Fi isn’t working, or sometimes they’ll have these in paid parking garages and they don’t tell you that. And it’s like $30 just to get in the garage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Like it feels like you do have to have an at-home charger right now for this to be convenient and conducive to your lifestyle. Like, I can’t imagine, like fully relying on this, you know. I, for one, will probably just stick with my Subaru for now. My gas-powered Subaru, for now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> On today’s episode of Bay Curious, we dive into the world of electric vehicles. I love driving mine, but as you saw, it’s not perfect. California currently dominates the EV market, and the state has a lofty goal of banning the sale of new gas-powered vehicles by 2035. So if you’re not driving an EV yet, you may be soon. Is your community set up for it? Is the Bay area’s current infrastructure matching up with the demand? We’ll get into all that just after a quick break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>SPONSOR\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>For this episode, I’m tossing to my co-pilot … reporter Dana Cronin … to explain what’s going on with the Bay Area’s EV infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Like a lot of Bay Area residents … maybe you included … I want my next car to be electric. But if my 2012 Subaru Outback died tomorrow … I’m not sure I’d be ready to make the switch. Especially after that drive with Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Kelly Lindberg … feels the same way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kelly Lindberg:\u003c/strong> You hear those stories in the news sometimes about, like, the drive between, like, Las Vegas and Los Angeles. You know, people going in their Teslas and having a super long line at the charging station.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Kelly works for a climate startup accelerator, and she’s thought, “There’s gotta be a solution to this problem.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One came to her… as she was driving through her neighborhood in Oakland. She’s noticed a lot of abandoned gas stations around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kelly Lindberg:\u003c/strong> Would it be a good idea to maybe turn some of these spaces into electric car charging stations?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>I mean … sounds like a good idea to me. I, too, live in Oakland and have noticed quite a few empty lots. Whether they’re former gas stations, convenience stores, or storefronts … it seems like there’s plenty of empty space for charging stations to set up shop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But, to do that, you first need a charging company. So, I met with one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(sounds of loud road noise)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Jonah Eidus is wearing a navy-logoed polo and is parked at an EVgo charging station. He oversees EVgo’s real estate department.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>EVgo has hundreds of charging stalls in the Bay Area … the one we’re meeting at is in Oakland’s Fruitvale neighborhood … right off of 580 on Fruitvale Avenue. It’s set up at a Shell gas station.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> So this site is an eight-stall, fast-charging site, capable of delivering up to 350 kW to each car. And it is definitely one of the more popular stations in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>That’s enough to charge most modern EVs in less than 20 minutes. And it is popular! Over the course of our interview … all eight stalls were full almost the whole time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Without wasting any time, I posed Kelly’s question. Could empty lots and gas stations near her house get setups like this one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> In general, when we’re installing new chargers, we’re looking to be in high-traffic areas where the chargers will be used for about 15 to 45 minutes. And that means we also want to have amenities nearby so people have something to do during those 15 to 45 minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>It takes longer to charge your car’s battery than it does to pump gas. So this charging station, for example, is right next to a Peet’s Coffee and a Farmer Joe’s grocery store. A perfect place to run some errands while you wait.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As we’re talking, Dave Robinson drives up in his brand new 2023 KIA EV6, backs into a stall, and plugs in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>What do you plan to do while you wait?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dave Robinson:\u003c/strong> Just hang out. You know, if it’s going to be a while, there’s coffee shops and everything else around. So it’s easy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Convenience! It’s a big factor in selecting a charging site, Jonah says. But there are lots of other factors, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus: \u003c/strong>Availability of parking stalls, grid interconnection, forecasted charging demand, electricity rates and importantly, multifamily housing density nearby the charging station.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>OK … let’s take those one at a time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> Availability of parking stalls …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Meaning … is there enough space for cars to park here? The goal is to build as many charging stalls as possible per site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> … grid interconnection …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>This one is super important. Because after all, the product they are ultimately selling … is electricity. And they need to make sure that a specific site HAS the electricity to sell\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> … forecasted charging demand … electricity rates …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>How many customers do they expect, and how much will those customers have to pay to charge? The cost of electricity can \u003cem>literally \u003c/em>vary block to block.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>And … EVGo is a for-profit company after all … so it needs to pencil out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> … and importantly, multifamily housing density nearby the charging station.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Is the charging station set up near those who need it the most? Those who live in apartment complexes, for example, don’t have the option to charge from their own garage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s not even \u003cem>half \u003c/em>the considerations that go into establishing a charging site. There’s also things like a city’s zoning regulations … and safety considerations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In fact, EVgo has a mapping algorithm that integrates 27 different factors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus: \u003c/strong>Suffice to say, it is a fairly sophisticated process that we go through. And when a site goes live, a lot of thought and a lot of data has gone into the decision to build that site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Jonah couldn’t say exactly whether the specific abandoned gas stations in Kelly’s neighborhood could be converted to charging sites … I guess that’s a question for the algorithm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(music)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem> \u003c/em>So that’s how companies choose specific charging sites … and avoid others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But at the \u003cem>heart \u003c/em>of Kelly’s question … is a bigger question. Clearly, we need MORE charging stations … whether at abandoned gas stations … or near coffee shops and grocery stores. So … why hasn’t the electric vehicle charging infrastructure kept up with demand?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To answer that question, I met up with Carleen Cullen. She’s the co-founder of the environmental nonprofit Cool the Earth and a former transportation advisor to Governor Newsom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(sounds of a busy parking lot)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>We meet up at another charging station … this one in the parking lot of a Safeway in Mill Valley. We’re chatting next to Carleen’s Chevy Bolt … which is parked in a stall, ready to charge … when, all of a sudden, another EV driver pulls up behind us and asks how long we plan to be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>I guess that’s part of the challenge is that there’s so few chargers that we have someone waiting on us here waiting for a charge, somewhat impatiently. So we’re going to go ahead and get charging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen:\u003c/strong> Let’s get started.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Carleen swipes her credit card, pulls the charger around to her car, plugs in, and it starts charging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(sound of the high-pitched hum from the charger)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen: \u003c/strong>So when you hear that great hum, you know that that’s happening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Carleen is somewhat of an electric vehicle evangelist … an E-V-vangelist … if you will. Half the time we spent together I felt like I was in an EV infomercial. But she’s not naive. She knows the current infrastructure is flawed. In fact, she did a study a few years ago where she tested the reliability of charging stations in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen: \u003c/strong>And we found that about a quarter of the stations in the Bay area weren’t functional.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Meaning the screens were broken or the payment system didn’t work or the equipment was flawed. She says the infrastructure has improved a lot since then, but there’s still not enough of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen: \u003c/strong>I would say we’re tight on the number of chargers. Yeah, we’re definitely tight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>And that’s in part because … what we’re talking about here … is a MAJOR overhaul of an entire transportation system. In 2020, Governor Newsom set a goal to ban the sale of new gas-powered vehicles in California by the year 2035. And California is outpacing other states in both EV adoption and infrastructure by a long shot. We have more chargers than any other state. But in order to reach that lofty goal … Carleen says we need three things:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen:\u003c/strong> We need to move the adoption of EVs forward. We need to move the number of charging ports available as well, and we need to move the grid capacity as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>These things all have to happen simultaneously. Consumers, charging companies, EV manufacturers, utility companies, local governments … everyone has to work in concert for this to work. Carleen says, right now, the utility companies aren’t necessarily pulling their weight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen: \u003c/strong>There’s a huge lag time between when the station, the charging station vendor requests the power and when PG&E actually delivers it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>For a charging station to operate, it needs to be hooked up to our power grid. That’s where PG&E comes in. And they won’t just let you set up a charging station ANYWHERE. They have to be able to deliver enough power to that site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Is the section of the grid you’re trying to connect to also connected to a big manufacturing plant … for example? Are your neighbors using a lot of electricity during certain times of the day? Then the available power is likely spoken for. Does that portion of the grid rely heavily on solar power? Then the chargers may not work when the sun goes down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These are critical considerations, says David Almeida … a manager within PG&E’s clean energy transportation group. And he says Carleen’s critique is fair. He says, yes, the utility is definitely still playing catch-up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Almeida:\u003c/strong> So we have over 600,000 EVs in our service territory. And we’ve seen EV adoption grow at about 26% of the compound annual growth rate over the last few years. That’s a significant amount of load that we’re seeing on the system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>He also says … they didn’t plan for that increased demand for electricity. In fact, they UNDERestimated it … and, as a result, they don’t have the infrastructure to support it right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But, he says, they’re working on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Almeida: \u003c/strong>We are building out a forecast that doesn’t look at necessarily just historical load, but it looks at where we anticipate load growth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>He says their goal is to make electric car charging stations faster to build and more reliable once they’re up and running.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>This all sounds like a lot of work. Overhauling our entire state’s transportation system … building thousands and thousands of new charging stations … getting utility companies on board … I’m exhausted just thinking about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But it’s important to remember WHY we’re doing this. Right now, California’s transportation system is BY FAR the largest contributor to our greenhouse gas emissions. Transitioning away from gas-powered cars is critical to mitigating the impacts of climate change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And Evs are already helping to do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A recent study by scientists at UC Berkeley showed EV adoption in the Bay Area has already reduced our carbon emissions by almost 2 percent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, obviously, to keep up that progress … the system has to work for EVERYONE. And I’m not sure we’re there yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music sneaks in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> What do you think, Olivia? Any more sympathy for the cause?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> You know, yeah. I didn’t realize there were so many hurdles to getting new charging stations online. I feel really lucky that I am able to charge my car at home and so this isn’t an issue I have to deal with very often. But for folks who can’t charge overnight where they live — that’s a huge hurdle. And I’m sure it’s a non-starter for some people! It’s got to get better.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Yeah … 2035 is not THAT far away … and if we’re gonna reach that goal, we’re going to need more charging stations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m kind of hoping my Subaru lasts just a couple more years …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Dana Cronin — thank you!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was KQED’s Dana Cronin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This story would not have been possible without our question-asker, Kelly Lindberg. That’s because you, our dear audience, decide what we cover by submitting questions — and then voting on which ones we should answer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We have a new voting round-up at BayCurious.org with three enticing questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 1:\u003c/strong> Why did Oakland International Airport become San Francisco Bay Oakland International Airport, giving us two very confusingly similar-sounding airports?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 2:\u003c/strong> I remember going to the Berkeley dump, now Cesar Chavez Park, with my dad in the 1970s. It was pretty wild. It’d be really interesting to learn more about its evolution from dump to park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 3:\u003c/strong> I was walking my dog on Thornton Beach on the Daly City/SF border and found a really long tunnel coming out of the hillside around some abandoned piers. Any idea what it is?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Voting is so easy! Just grab your phone, pull up BayCurious.org, scroll to our voting round and click on your favorite question! No registering or emails or phone numbers or anything complicated. We try to make it easy on you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Amanda Font, Olivia Allen-Price, Christopher Beale. Special thanks to Laura Klivans, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "how-scarlot-harlot-made-sex-worker-rights-her-lifes-work",
"title": "How Scarlot Harlot Made Sex Worker Rights Her Life's Work",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11998339/transcript-scarlot-harlot-made-sex-worker-rights-her-lifes-work\">Read a transcript of this episode.\u003c/a> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you look up Carol Leigh or “Scarlot Harlot” online, you’ll learn that she’s credited with coining the term “sex worker.” Today, it’s used by activists, public health officials, lawmakers and the media to describe those working in the sex industry, and it’s revolutionized the way we talk about the profession.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The term came to Leigh in 1978 when she attended a workshop hosted by a group of feminists in San Francisco. The group, Women Against Violence in Pornography and Media or WAVPM, thought all women in the sex industry were being oppressed by men and held \u003ca href=\"https://www.thecut.com/2019/03/sex-lies-and-andrea-dworkin.html\">anti-sex work points of view\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousbug] Leigh was familiar with this argument, but she made it a point to understand their opposing perspective. She writes in her memoir “Unrepentant Whore: The Collected Works of Scarlot Harlot” that she identified herself as a prostitute to the group. She said the name of the workshop referenced the “sex use industry.” That name embarrassed her. So, she spoke out against it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If we’re a feminist, we should be defining it not by what the men do – the men use the services – but by what the women do. Women do sex work,” Leigh recalls saying. She said she didn’t remember anyone objecting to her reasoning.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Getting into the Business\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Leigh grew up in Queens, New York, with parents who were part of the Socialist Party. She refers to herself as a “red diaper baby.” While growing up in the 1970s, she and her mother became avid feminists. She loved the movement, but, Leigh said, feminism wasn’t a perfect fit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11998536\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-at-eighteen-years-old_courtesy-of-Leigh-estate-1.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11998536\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-at-eighteen-years-old_courtesy-of-Leigh-estate-1-800x800.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white portrait of a young woman's face.\" width=\"800\" height=\"800\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-at-eighteen-years-old_courtesy-of-Leigh-estate-1-800x800.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-at-eighteen-years-old_courtesy-of-Leigh-estate-1-160x160.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-at-eighteen-years-old_courtesy-of-Leigh-estate-1.jpg 891w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Carol Leigh, at 18 years old, in Queens, New York \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the Carol Leigh estate)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“There were problems within feminism that I hadn’t really understood in regards to sexual expression and sexual identity,” Leigh recalled.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At this point, Leigh wasn’t a sex worker yet, but she was drawn to it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She said the feminist movement, which taught her that all men oppressed women, led her to repress her sexual desires. “I thought that was capitulating to the patriarchy,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It wouldn’t be until her mid-20s, when Leigh moved to San Francisco, that she seriously considered sex work. She asked friends about the city’s massage parlor scene in the Tenderloin neighborhood. Leigh said she saw storefronts with signs that said “sex, massage, girls” in the neighborhood. She walked into one, a massage parlor called The Hong Kong on Jones Street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I had heard once you agreed to sell it, you crossed a line,” Leigh wrote in her book. “There was no turning back. I couldn’t resist. I took the dare.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After her first day at work, she said she rode the BART train home and recalls looking at her reflection in the train car window. She looked at herself and said proudly, “Now there’s a prostitute.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Leigh and other sex workers she met say they enjoyed the financial stability and flexibility that came with sex work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It worked well for me with the work/life balance,” said Kate Marquez, a former sex worker at The Hong Kong and a good friend of Leigh’s. Marquez worked to support her 8-year-old daughter while putting herself through school. “Doing sex work was a great choice. I found this thing that actually worked for me.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Leigh was fascinated by the strong way many of the workers at The Hong Kong dealt with sex work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I met women who seemed like they were robust, rebellious and funny. And this is not what I expected,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Leigh’s budding activism for sex work\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Except for certain parts of Nevada, prostitution laws make full-service sex work illegal throughout the country. Public attitudes about fully decriminalizing sex work have swung back and forth over the years, in part because of the work of the sex worker rights movement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the center of that movement in San Francisco was \u003ca href=\"https://diva.sfsu.edu/collections/sfbatv/bundles/191566\">Margo St. James\u003c/a>. She was a media darling and former sex worker turned activist who made sex work a labor issue. She fought for decriminalizing prostitution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1973, St. James helped found Call Off Your Old Tired Ethics or \u003ca href=\"https://www.radcliffe.harvard.edu/schlesinger-library/collections/margo-st-james-and-coyote\">COYOTE\u003c/a>, a sex worker rights activist group. COYOTE meetings were a safe space for sex workers to trade notes on clients and warn each other about undercover cops.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Soon after Leigh and Marquez became good friends at The Hong Kong, they began attending COYOTE meetings together. Leigh was immediately drawn to St. James’s sex-positive take on feminism, which imagined a fully empowered woman able to make any choices she desired.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She made feminism make sense to me,” Leigh said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A central focus for COYOTE was advocating for the decriminalization of sex work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I worked at a massage parlor for a few months, but of course, the place got busted,” said Annie Sprinkle, a former adult film star from New York and another friend of Leigh’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Massage parlors have often been targets of undercover police stings. If a sex worker solicits an undercover cop, the parlor could be shut down. Advocates and former law enforcement have said these “\u003ca href=\"https://filtermag.org/decriminalize-sex-work/\">drug war tactics\u003c/a>” don’t do much to stop illegal sex work. Workers often return to other parlors or continue sex work in other ways that are potentially more dangerous.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>From the pleasurable to the political\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>While Leigh was coming into her own as a sex worker and becoming more active with COYOTE, she wrote poetry and performed for audiences in coffee shops. She started taking acting classes with a teacher named Joya Cory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cory said Leigh was open with her classmates about her life as a sex worker and had a great stage presence. A year later, Leigh shared that she was working on a project based on the poems she had written – a play about her life as a sex worker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She told me about it, and she said, ‘Would you like to direct it?’ And it was about her career as a call girl,” Cory said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cory had never directed anything professionally before, but the material excited her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11998542\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 575px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot_This-Paper-Bag_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-e1722557982488.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11998542\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot_This-Paper-Bag_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-e1722557982488.png\" alt='Black and white image of a woman on the stage in a theater. She is lifting a paper bag off her head that reads \"This paper bag represents the anonymity that prostitutes are forced to adopt.\"' width=\"575\" height=\"766\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot_This-Paper-Bag_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-e1722557982488.png 575w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot_This-Paper-Bag_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-e1722557982488-160x213.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 575px) 100vw, 575px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Carol playing Scarlot in The Adventures of Scarlot Harlot at the National Festival of Women’s Theater in Santa Cruz in 1983. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the Carol Leigh estate)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The play became a one-woman show called \u003cem>The Adventures of Scarlot Harlot\u003c/em>. Leigh would play Scarlot Harlot, a character she created that was an alter ego of her sex worker persona. She chose to spell the name Scarlot instead of Scarlet to suggest a ‘lot of scars.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although Leigh dyed her hair deep red for the role, Cory said the name Scarlot suited who she truly was, both on and off stage. “Carol was kind of a vanilla name. And Scarlot was not vanilla, she was anything but vanilla.” Scarlot wore sequin costumes, boas, wigs and occasionally lingerie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite Scarlot’s playful nature, Leigh wanted the character to deliver a political message in her play. She aimed to introduce audiences to the term “sex worker” and demystify their work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This paper bag symbolizes the anonymity prostitutes are forced to adopt!” Scarlot shouts at the top of the play with a paper bag overhead. Then she rips it off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We won’t remain anonymous. Sex workers unite!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In another scene from the play, Scarlot is appalled after learning the definition of prostitution. “The act of selling one’s talents for an unworthy cause,” she reads aloud. “Well, that definition tarnishes my reputation!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11998352\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/ScarlotHarlot.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11998352\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/ScarlotHarlot-800x544.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white image of a woman reading a book. She is sitting crooked on a chair with her knees pulled up and feet in the air. Beneath her is a striking checkerboard floor.\" width=\"800\" height=\"544\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/ScarlotHarlot-800x544.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/ScarlotHarlot-1020x694.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/ScarlotHarlot-160x109.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/ScarlotHarlot-1536x1045.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/ScarlotHarlot.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Carol Leigh, as Scarlot, reads the definition of prostitution in ‘The Adventures of Scarlot Harlot’ in 1983. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the Carol Leigh estate)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Cory said Scarlot would turn to the audience and ask if they had ever done anything for money that went against their core values. “Half of them would raise their hands. And she’d say, ‘Ah! That’s prostitution,’” Cory said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The play toured the Bay Area for about four years. It was part of the National Festival of Women’s Theater in Santa Cruz and Scarlot even performed on a bill alongside Whoopi Goldberg.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s really hard to do political art and make it interesting. And she did that,” Cory said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Leigh had ambitions of taking \u003cem>The Adventures of Scarlot Harlot\u003c/em> off-Broadway in New York. But the play closed in 1984, and by the mid-1980s, the AIDS crisis was in full swing. Leigh made the hard decision to put her play on hold and focused on AIDS activism.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Sex workers and AIDS activism\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>At the beginning of the AIDS epidemic, there was a lot of confusion about how the virus spread. Lawmakers across the country went into a panic and started drafting laws to criminalize people who might spread the infection in hopes of stopping it. They put sex workers in that group.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was a very scary time for sex workers,” Leigh said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She joined Citizens for Medical Justice, an early AIDS awareness group in San Francisco, before joining ACT UP.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1988, Leigh and members of COYOTE lobbied against a bill that required sex workers who were arrested to be tested for HIV. If they were positive, they could face criminal charges.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This means that if a prostitute is convicted and she is antibody positive if she even does a hand job, she can actually be convicted of a felony,” Leigh explained to a reporter at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She and other members of COYOTE spoke to lawmakers and protested outside the Capitol in Sacramento.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Carol Leigh was very interested in women’s body autonomy,” Sprinkle said. “Whether that was abortion, or the right to a clean needle, or the right to do sex work. She felt a woman should have agency. Who she wants to have sex with, who she wants to go out with. And she should be safe.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite their efforts, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1988-01-26-mn-38568-story.html\">bill was signed into law\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Leigh wouldn’t see her activism pay off for \u003ca href=\"https://blog.petrieflom.law.harvard.edu/2018/12/11/successful-hiv-criminalization-reform-in-california-q-and-a-with-sen-scott-wiener/\">almost 30 years later\u003c/a>. In 2017, the state legislature repealed the law along with other similar HIV criminalization laws like it and annulled all previous convictions for sex workers affected by it.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A new chapter for Scarlot Harlot\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>That experience had galvanized Leigh and showed her that to win the rights of sex workers, she needed to take Scarlot to new heights. She did talk show appearances, spoke on panels at universities, wrote music about safe sex and traveled the world as Scarlot Harlot, meeting with sex worker groups in Taiwan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over time, the term “sex worker” would appear in academic journals and public health studies because of advocacy from COYOTE members Margo St. James and Priscilla Alexander. However, it was Leigh’s character, Scarlot Harlot, who would popularize it within the sex worker community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I just thought that I was doing something dirty, secretive and shameful,” said Savannah Sly, co-founder of New Moon Network, a philanthropic organization for sex worker activists. As a sex worker, Sly said she looked up to Scarlot Harlot. “[She] gave me a word that was dignified and described it as a labor form.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sly adds that Leigh knew there was \u003ca href=\"https://www.aclusocal.org/en/know-your-rights/sex-worker-rights-california\">always work to be done\u003c/a> in the sex worker community. That included recognizing that the term “sex worker” is not a one-size-fits-all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“As the movement evolves, I’ve seen erotic laborers, professional lovers, exotic dancers, adult content creators,” she said. Sex work will always be the root of these professions, Sly said, but adds, “Not all sex workers are comfortable with the phrase ‘sex work’ because it does sound like it describes prostitution.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Friends of Leigh said she was always learning from younger sex worker activists and recognized that not all sex workers have the same experiences and many come to the profession from different backgrounds or for different reasons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11998543\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-with-Santa_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-estate.jpeg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11998543\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-with-Santa_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-estate-800x533.jpeg\" alt=\"A woman in a strapless red dress with a red feathered hat cuddles up next to a man dressed as Santa Claus.\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-with-Santa_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-estate-800x533.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-with-Santa_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-estate-1020x680.jpeg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-with-Santa_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-estate-160x107.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-with-Santa_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-estate.jpeg 1280w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A Christmas card from Scarlot Harlot \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the Carol Leigh estate)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Leigh cements her legacy\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1999, Leigh helped create the Sex Worker Film and Arts Festival or Sex Worker Fest. The film festival features independent films from sex workers, workshops and community events throughout San Francisco. Elizabeth Dayton, the current Director of Sex Fest, said Leigh thought it was important for sex workers to be able to share their own stories in “a dedicated space for the community to celebrate their art.” The festival runs every two years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That same year, Leigh, Margo St. James and members of COYOTE started the St. James Infirmary clinic in the Tenderloin. This free clinic, the first of its kind in the country, offered confidential medical and legal services to sex workers in the Bay Area and housing assistance for the trans community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the early 1990s, Carol Leigh started working with Joseph Kramer, a sexologist and sex educator. They made hundreds of sex education videos that focused on sexual massage for couples. The job allowed Leigh to hone her video editing skills.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She kept a record of her work by filming her own activism, then producing interviews and short documentaries. Her archives can be found at the Schlesinger Library on the History of Women in America at Harvard University alongside those of Margo St. James.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11998541\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-grey-hair.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11998541\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-grey-hair-800x800.jpg\" alt=\"Portrait of a middle aged woman with wavy grey hair in a leather jacket.\" width=\"800\" height=\"800\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-grey-hair-800x800.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-grey-hair-160x160.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-grey-hair.jpg 986w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A portrait of Carol Leigh \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the Carol Leigh estate)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Leigh died from cancer on Nov. 16, 2022. She was surrounded and supported by her close friends, Beth Stephens, Annie Sprinkle and Kate Marquez, in the final days of her life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I got to go over there and be with her body and put some flowers on her,” Sprinkle said. “And be there when they rolled her out in a red velvet body bag. She did a really good job planning for her death. Amazingly well.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Before she died, Carol established a trust, one that she didn’t tell anybody about. It included an inheritance from her mother, who supported her daughter’s sex worker career from the beginning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The beneficiaries included 86 different sex workers and sex worker organizations in need, including the New Moon Network, Third Wave Sex Worker Giving Circle and Red Umbrella Fund.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[It] was amazing to see this person who never made a lot of money become a big philanthropist,” said Kate Marquez, now the executor of Leigh’s estate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Annie Sprinkle said Carol Leigh never stopped trying to keep sex workers safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She was a whore mentor and a whore mother to many sex workers. She was truly the whore with a heart of gold.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11998544\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 756px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-Art-Print.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11998544\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-Art-Print.jpg\" alt=\"Art print of a woman with curly red hair, a red feathered hat and red lipstick.\" width=\"756\" height=\"1006\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-Art-Print.jpg 756w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-Art-Print-160x213.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 756px) 100vw, 756px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An art print of Scarlot Harlot created by Carol Leigh’s friend and fellow sex worker, Annie Sprinkle. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Annie Sprinkle)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11998339/transcript-scarlot-harlot-made-sex-worker-rights-her-lifes-work\">Read a transcript of this episode.\u003c/a> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you look up Carol Leigh or “Scarlot Harlot” online, you’ll learn that she’s credited with coining the term “sex worker.” Today, it’s used by activists, public health officials, lawmakers and the media to describe those working in the sex industry, and it’s revolutionized the way we talk about the profession.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The term came to Leigh in 1978 when she attended a workshop hosted by a group of feminists in San Francisco. The group, Women Against Violence in Pornography and Media or WAVPM, thought all women in the sex industry were being oppressed by men and held \u003ca href=\"https://www.thecut.com/2019/03/sex-lies-and-andrea-dworkin.html\">anti-sex work points of view\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n What do you wonder about the Bay Area, its culture or people that you want KQED to investigate?\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Ask Bay Curious.\u003c/a>\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp> Leigh was familiar with this argument, but she made it a point to understand their opposing perspective. She writes in her memoir “Unrepentant Whore: The Collected Works of Scarlot Harlot” that she identified herself as a prostitute to the group. She said the name of the workshop referenced the “sex use industry.” That name embarrassed her. So, she spoke out against it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If we’re a feminist, we should be defining it not by what the men do – the men use the services – but by what the women do. Women do sex work,” Leigh recalls saying. She said she didn’t remember anyone objecting to her reasoning.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Getting into the Business\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Leigh grew up in Queens, New York, with parents who were part of the Socialist Party. She refers to herself as a “red diaper baby.” While growing up in the 1970s, she and her mother became avid feminists. She loved the movement, but, Leigh said, feminism wasn’t a perfect fit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11998536\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-at-eighteen-years-old_courtesy-of-Leigh-estate-1.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11998536\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-at-eighteen-years-old_courtesy-of-Leigh-estate-1-800x800.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white portrait of a young woman's face.\" width=\"800\" height=\"800\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-at-eighteen-years-old_courtesy-of-Leigh-estate-1-800x800.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-at-eighteen-years-old_courtesy-of-Leigh-estate-1-160x160.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-at-eighteen-years-old_courtesy-of-Leigh-estate-1.jpg 891w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Carol Leigh, at 18 years old, in Queens, New York \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the Carol Leigh estate)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“There were problems within feminism that I hadn’t really understood in regards to sexual expression and sexual identity,” Leigh recalled.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At this point, Leigh wasn’t a sex worker yet, but she was drawn to it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She said the feminist movement, which taught her that all men oppressed women, led her to repress her sexual desires. “I thought that was capitulating to the patriarchy,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It wouldn’t be until her mid-20s, when Leigh moved to San Francisco, that she seriously considered sex work. She asked friends about the city’s massage parlor scene in the Tenderloin neighborhood. Leigh said she saw storefronts with signs that said “sex, massage, girls” in the neighborhood. She walked into one, a massage parlor called The Hong Kong on Jones Street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I had heard once you agreed to sell it, you crossed a line,” Leigh wrote in her book. “There was no turning back. I couldn’t resist. I took the dare.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After her first day at work, she said she rode the BART train home and recalls looking at her reflection in the train car window. She looked at herself and said proudly, “Now there’s a prostitute.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Leigh and other sex workers she met say they enjoyed the financial stability and flexibility that came with sex work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It worked well for me with the work/life balance,” said Kate Marquez, a former sex worker at The Hong Kong and a good friend of Leigh’s. Marquez worked to support her 8-year-old daughter while putting herself through school. “Doing sex work was a great choice. I found this thing that actually worked for me.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Leigh was fascinated by the strong way many of the workers at The Hong Kong dealt with sex work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I met women who seemed like they were robust, rebellious and funny. And this is not what I expected,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Leigh’s budding activism for sex work\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Except for certain parts of Nevada, prostitution laws make full-service sex work illegal throughout the country. Public attitudes about fully decriminalizing sex work have swung back and forth over the years, in part because of the work of the sex worker rights movement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the center of that movement in San Francisco was \u003ca href=\"https://diva.sfsu.edu/collections/sfbatv/bundles/191566\">Margo St. James\u003c/a>. She was a media darling and former sex worker turned activist who made sex work a labor issue. She fought for decriminalizing prostitution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1973, St. James helped found Call Off Your Old Tired Ethics or \u003ca href=\"https://www.radcliffe.harvard.edu/schlesinger-library/collections/margo-st-james-and-coyote\">COYOTE\u003c/a>, a sex worker rights activist group. COYOTE meetings were a safe space for sex workers to trade notes on clients and warn each other about undercover cops.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Soon after Leigh and Marquez became good friends at The Hong Kong, they began attending COYOTE meetings together. Leigh was immediately drawn to St. James’s sex-positive take on feminism, which imagined a fully empowered woman able to make any choices she desired.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She made feminism make sense to me,” Leigh said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A central focus for COYOTE was advocating for the decriminalization of sex work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I worked at a massage parlor for a few months, but of course, the place got busted,” said Annie Sprinkle, a former adult film star from New York and another friend of Leigh’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Massage parlors have often been targets of undercover police stings. If a sex worker solicits an undercover cop, the parlor could be shut down. Advocates and former law enforcement have said these “\u003ca href=\"https://filtermag.org/decriminalize-sex-work/\">drug war tactics\u003c/a>” don’t do much to stop illegal sex work. Workers often return to other parlors or continue sex work in other ways that are potentially more dangerous.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>From the pleasurable to the political\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>While Leigh was coming into her own as a sex worker and becoming more active with COYOTE, she wrote poetry and performed for audiences in coffee shops. She started taking acting classes with a teacher named Joya Cory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cory said Leigh was open with her classmates about her life as a sex worker and had a great stage presence. A year later, Leigh shared that she was working on a project based on the poems she had written – a play about her life as a sex worker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She told me about it, and she said, ‘Would you like to direct it?’ And it was about her career as a call girl,” Cory said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cory had never directed anything professionally before, but the material excited her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11998542\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 575px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot_This-Paper-Bag_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-e1722557982488.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11998542\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot_This-Paper-Bag_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-e1722557982488.png\" alt='Black and white image of a woman on the stage in a theater. She is lifting a paper bag off her head that reads \"This paper bag represents the anonymity that prostitutes are forced to adopt.\"' width=\"575\" height=\"766\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot_This-Paper-Bag_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-e1722557982488.png 575w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot_This-Paper-Bag_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-e1722557982488-160x213.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 575px) 100vw, 575px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Carol playing Scarlot in The Adventures of Scarlot Harlot at the National Festival of Women’s Theater in Santa Cruz in 1983. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the Carol Leigh estate)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The play became a one-woman show called \u003cem>The Adventures of Scarlot Harlot\u003c/em>. Leigh would play Scarlot Harlot, a character she created that was an alter ego of her sex worker persona. She chose to spell the name Scarlot instead of Scarlet to suggest a ‘lot of scars.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although Leigh dyed her hair deep red for the role, Cory said the name Scarlot suited who she truly was, both on and off stage. “Carol was kind of a vanilla name. And Scarlot was not vanilla, she was anything but vanilla.” Scarlot wore sequin costumes, boas, wigs and occasionally lingerie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite Scarlot’s playful nature, Leigh wanted the character to deliver a political message in her play. She aimed to introduce audiences to the term “sex worker” and demystify their work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This paper bag symbolizes the anonymity prostitutes are forced to adopt!” Scarlot shouts at the top of the play with a paper bag overhead. Then she rips it off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We won’t remain anonymous. Sex workers unite!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In another scene from the play, Scarlot is appalled after learning the definition of prostitution. “The act of selling one’s talents for an unworthy cause,” she reads aloud. “Well, that definition tarnishes my reputation!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11998352\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/ScarlotHarlot.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11998352\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/ScarlotHarlot-800x544.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white image of a woman reading a book. She is sitting crooked on a chair with her knees pulled up and feet in the air. Beneath her is a striking checkerboard floor.\" width=\"800\" height=\"544\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/ScarlotHarlot-800x544.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/ScarlotHarlot-1020x694.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/ScarlotHarlot-160x109.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/ScarlotHarlot-1536x1045.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/ScarlotHarlot.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Carol Leigh, as Scarlot, reads the definition of prostitution in ‘The Adventures of Scarlot Harlot’ in 1983. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the Carol Leigh estate)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Cory said Scarlot would turn to the audience and ask if they had ever done anything for money that went against their core values. “Half of them would raise their hands. And she’d say, ‘Ah! That’s prostitution,’” Cory said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The play toured the Bay Area for about four years. It was part of the National Festival of Women’s Theater in Santa Cruz and Scarlot even performed on a bill alongside Whoopi Goldberg.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s really hard to do political art and make it interesting. And she did that,” Cory said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Leigh had ambitions of taking \u003cem>The Adventures of Scarlot Harlot\u003c/em> off-Broadway in New York. But the play closed in 1984, and by the mid-1980s, the AIDS crisis was in full swing. Leigh made the hard decision to put her play on hold and focused on AIDS activism.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Sex workers and AIDS activism\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>At the beginning of the AIDS epidemic, there was a lot of confusion about how the virus spread. Lawmakers across the country went into a panic and started drafting laws to criminalize people who might spread the infection in hopes of stopping it. They put sex workers in that group.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was a very scary time for sex workers,” Leigh said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She joined Citizens for Medical Justice, an early AIDS awareness group in San Francisco, before joining ACT UP.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1988, Leigh and members of COYOTE lobbied against a bill that required sex workers who were arrested to be tested for HIV. If they were positive, they could face criminal charges.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This means that if a prostitute is convicted and she is antibody positive if she even does a hand job, she can actually be convicted of a felony,” Leigh explained to a reporter at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She and other members of COYOTE spoke to lawmakers and protested outside the Capitol in Sacramento.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Carol Leigh was very interested in women’s body autonomy,” Sprinkle said. “Whether that was abortion, or the right to a clean needle, or the right to do sex work. She felt a woman should have agency. Who she wants to have sex with, who she wants to go out with. And she should be safe.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite their efforts, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1988-01-26-mn-38568-story.html\">bill was signed into law\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Leigh wouldn’t see her activism pay off for \u003ca href=\"https://blog.petrieflom.law.harvard.edu/2018/12/11/successful-hiv-criminalization-reform-in-california-q-and-a-with-sen-scott-wiener/\">almost 30 years later\u003c/a>. In 2017, the state legislature repealed the law along with other similar HIV criminalization laws like it and annulled all previous convictions for sex workers affected by it.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A new chapter for Scarlot Harlot\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>That experience had galvanized Leigh and showed her that to win the rights of sex workers, she needed to take Scarlot to new heights. She did talk show appearances, spoke on panels at universities, wrote music about safe sex and traveled the world as Scarlot Harlot, meeting with sex worker groups in Taiwan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over time, the term “sex worker” would appear in academic journals and public health studies because of advocacy from COYOTE members Margo St. James and Priscilla Alexander. However, it was Leigh’s character, Scarlot Harlot, who would popularize it within the sex worker community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I just thought that I was doing something dirty, secretive and shameful,” said Savannah Sly, co-founder of New Moon Network, a philanthropic organization for sex worker activists. As a sex worker, Sly said she looked up to Scarlot Harlot. “[She] gave me a word that was dignified and described it as a labor form.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sly adds that Leigh knew there was \u003ca href=\"https://www.aclusocal.org/en/know-your-rights/sex-worker-rights-california\">always work to be done\u003c/a> in the sex worker community. That included recognizing that the term “sex worker” is not a one-size-fits-all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“As the movement evolves, I’ve seen erotic laborers, professional lovers, exotic dancers, adult content creators,” she said. Sex work will always be the root of these professions, Sly said, but adds, “Not all sex workers are comfortable with the phrase ‘sex work’ because it does sound like it describes prostitution.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Friends of Leigh said she was always learning from younger sex worker activists and recognized that not all sex workers have the same experiences and many come to the profession from different backgrounds or for different reasons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11998543\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-with-Santa_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-estate.jpeg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11998543\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-with-Santa_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-estate-800x533.jpeg\" alt=\"A woman in a strapless red dress with a red feathered hat cuddles up next to a man dressed as Santa Claus.\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-with-Santa_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-estate-800x533.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-with-Santa_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-estate-1020x680.jpeg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-with-Santa_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-estate-160x107.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-with-Santa_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-estate.jpeg 1280w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A Christmas card from Scarlot Harlot \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the Carol Leigh estate)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Leigh cements her legacy\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1999, Leigh helped create the Sex Worker Film and Arts Festival or Sex Worker Fest. The film festival features independent films from sex workers, workshops and community events throughout San Francisco. Elizabeth Dayton, the current Director of Sex Fest, said Leigh thought it was important for sex workers to be able to share their own stories in “a dedicated space for the community to celebrate their art.” The festival runs every two years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That same year, Leigh, Margo St. James and members of COYOTE started the St. James Infirmary clinic in the Tenderloin. This free clinic, the first of its kind in the country, offered confidential medical and legal services to sex workers in the Bay Area and housing assistance for the trans community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the early 1990s, Carol Leigh started working with Joseph Kramer, a sexologist and sex educator. They made hundreds of sex education videos that focused on sexual massage for couples. The job allowed Leigh to hone her video editing skills.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She kept a record of her work by filming her own activism, then producing interviews and short documentaries. Her archives can be found at the Schlesinger Library on the History of Women in America at Harvard University alongside those of Margo St. James.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11998541\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-grey-hair.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11998541\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-grey-hair-800x800.jpg\" alt=\"Portrait of a middle aged woman with wavy grey hair in a leather jacket.\" width=\"800\" height=\"800\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-grey-hair-800x800.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-grey-hair-160x160.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-grey-hair.jpg 986w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A portrait of Carol Leigh \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the Carol Leigh estate)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Leigh died from cancer on Nov. 16, 2022. She was surrounded and supported by her close friends, Beth Stephens, Annie Sprinkle and Kate Marquez, in the final days of her life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I got to go over there and be with her body and put some flowers on her,” Sprinkle said. “And be there when they rolled her out in a red velvet body bag. She did a really good job planning for her death. Amazingly well.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Before she died, Carol established a trust, one that she didn’t tell anybody about. It included an inheritance from her mother, who supported her daughter’s sex worker career from the beginning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The beneficiaries included 86 different sex workers and sex worker organizations in need, including the New Moon Network, Third Wave Sex Worker Giving Circle and Red Umbrella Fund.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[It] was amazing to see this person who never made a lot of money become a big philanthropist,” said Kate Marquez, now the executor of Leigh’s estate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Annie Sprinkle said Carol Leigh never stopped trying to keep sex workers safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She was a whore mentor and a whore mother to many sex workers. She was truly the whore with a heart of gold.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11998544\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 756px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-Art-Print.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11998544\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-Art-Print.jpg\" alt=\"Art print of a woman with curly red hair, a red feathered hat and red lipstick.\" width=\"756\" height=\"1006\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-Art-Print.jpg 756w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-Art-Print-160x213.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 756px) 100vw, 756px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An art print of Scarlot Harlot created by Carol Leigh’s friend and fellow sex worker, Annie Sprinkle. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Annie Sprinkle)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "A one-hour radio program to hear celebrated writers, artists and thinkers address contemporary ideas and values, often discussing the creative process. Please note: tapes or transcripts are not available",
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"airtime": "SUN 1pm-2pm, TUE 10pm, WED 1am",
"meta": {
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"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
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"rss": "https://www.cityarts.net/feed/"
}
},
"closealltabs": {
"id": "closealltabs",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/closealltabs",
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"order": 1
},
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"id": "code-switch-life-kit",
"title": "Code Switch / Life Kit",
"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
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"meta": {
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"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"order": 9
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5NTU3MzgxNjMz",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
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"meta": {
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"source": "WNYC"
},
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
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},
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"id": "fresh-air",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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"hidden-brain": {
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"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "NPR"
},
"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
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"how-i-built-this": {
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"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
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"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
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"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"order": 15
},
"link": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/2p3Fifq96nw9BPcmFdIq0o?si=39209f7b25774f38",
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},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
"meta": {
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"order": 18
},
"link": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/id1492194549",
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},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
"meta": {
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},
"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
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"source": "WaitWhat"
},
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
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"link": "/radio/program/morning-edition"
},
"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"subscribe": {
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
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},
"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm-3pm, MON 12am-1am",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png",
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"meta": {
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"source": "wnyc"
},
"link": "/radio/program/on-the-media",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/on-the-media/id73330715?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/On-the-Media-p69/",
"rss": "http://feeds.wnyc.org/onthemedia"
}
},
"pbs-newshour": {
"id": "pbs-newshour",
"title": "PBS NewsHour",
"info": "Analysis, background reports and updates from the PBS NewsHour putting today's news in context.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3pm-4pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/PBS-News-Hour-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/",
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"source": "pbs"
},
"link": "/radio/program/pbs-newshour",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pbs-newshour-full-show/id394432287?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/PBS-NewsHour---Full-Show-p425698/",
"rss": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/feeds/rss/podcasts/show"
}
},
"perspectives": {
"id": "perspectives",
"title": "Perspectives",
"tagline": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991",
"info": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/Perspectives_Tile_Final.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/perspectives/",
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 14
},
"link": "/perspectives",
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