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"slug": "which-came-first-the-name-brotherhood-way-or-the-churches-on-it",
"title": "Which Came First, The Name Brotherhood Way Or The Churches On It?",
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"headTitle": "Which Came First, The Name Brotherhood Way Or The Churches On It? | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ethel Davies answers her door, looking downright spunky in a navy blue suit, pearls and red lipstick. She’s 102 years old and has lived in San Francisco all her life. She’s heading out for dinner with friends soon but invites me in for a chat about her older brother, George Christopher, who was a former mayor of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I found my way to Davies in search of answers to a question asked by Noor Moughamian, an 11-year-old student at the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kzv.org/\">KZV Armenian School\u003c/a> on Brotherhood Way. The street, on the southwest side of San Francisco, near Lake Merced and Stonestown Galleria, is a wide boulevard with many houses of worship side by side, including Jewish, Greek Orthodox, Catholic, Armenian and Presbyterian. There are also several schools and community centers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Noor thinks it’s unusual to see so many churches and schools clumped together. She wants to know which came first, the name Brotherhood Way or the institutions on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Going back to Greektown\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To answer Noor’s question about how Brotherhood Way got its name, it’s helpful to learn a little more about Davies’ family history and her older brother, George Christopher.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The family came from Greece in the early 1900s and settled south of Market Street. There were so many Greek businesses and residences in that area that it was often called Greektown back then. It had traditional coffeehouses, restaurants, a Greek language school and the Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s where I was christened when I was an infant,” said Davies. “So that’s been a continuation for me for 102 years.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11989939\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11989939\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/EthelDavies.jpg\" alt=\"Older woman in a navy blue pants suit poses by a fireplace.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"2089\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/EthelDavies.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/EthelDavies-800x870.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/EthelDavies-1020x1110.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/EthelDavies-160x174.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/EthelDavies-1412x1536.jpg 1412w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/EthelDavies-1882x2048.jpg 1882w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">At 102, Ethel Davies is still going strong. The younger sister of former San Francisco mayor George Christopher, here she poses before heading out to a dinner date with friends. \u003ccite>(Katherine Monahan/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>While Davies was born in the U.S., her eldest brother, George, was born back in Greece. Originally called George Christopheles, he later changed the name to George Christopher. When he was 14, their father became sick. So George dropped out of school and went to work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He took over when my father died, and he made a good life for us,” said Davies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Christopher went into the milk business and worked his way into the middle class. In the 1930s, many Greek families and businesses moved away from Greektown to other neighborhoods. The Christopher family moved out to the southwest side of San Francisco, near Lake Merced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, the area was still pretty undeveloped. What would later become Brotherhood Way was a forested canyon with a creek running into Lake Merced. During the Depression, men employed by the government as part of the New Deal built a road along it called \u003ca href=\"https://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=Brotherhood_Way\">Stanley Drive\u003c/a>. It was straight and long and pretty isolated, so for a while, it was a popular drag racing spot for teenagers. At least one car ended up in the lake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Davies remembers when her brother had the idea to turn that road into a community space.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He wanted it to be a church area where all the different churches could meet and be friendly,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After George Christopher became the mayor of San Francisco in 1956, he arranged an auction of the city-owned lands along Stanley Drive. The biggest parcel went to his church — the Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church — whose congregation was outgrowing its building south of Market. The rest of the properties went to other religious and community institutions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The faith institutions petitioned the city to change the name of their new address. And in 1958, Stanley Drive became Brotherhood Way.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>An evolving sense of community\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Over the years, Brotherhood Way has evolved to reflect people’s changing beliefs and affiliations. The original properties have been subdivided, and new institutions have appeared.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Freemasons bought one of the original parcels and built a lodge on the street. However, as membership has waned over the years, the group now rents its space to a Christian church and two bridge clubs. Several community centers have also opened along Brotherhood Way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11989951\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11989951\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Peace-statue.jpg\" alt=\"30 foot cylindrical statue sits on a patch of dirt with housing behind.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"2466\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Peace-statue.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Peace-statue-800x1028.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Peace-statue-1020x1310.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Peace-statue-160x206.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Peace-statue-1196x1536.jpg 1196w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Peace-statue-1595x2048.jpg 1595w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The \u003ca href=\"https://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=Beniamino_Bufano_on_Public_Art\">Italian sculptor Benny Bufano created this peace statue\u003c/a>. It originally sat at SFO but now resides on Brotherhood Way. \u003ccite>(Katherine Monahan/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>One of the most recent additions to the street is a non-denominational Christian congregation called New North Church.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We may believe different doctrines and have different beliefs and core tenets, but my experience has been that we help each other,” said Pastor Rob Hall of the other faith institutions on the street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hall said that in his experience, people in San Francisco don’t go to church as much as they used to — a lot of his parishioners now come from the peninsula — but they’re still a vibrant faith community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We have a lot of different ethnicities represented here and then we’re also multi-generational,” he said. Beyond the growing number of churches, schools and community organizations on Brotherhood Way, there have been other changes to George Christopher’s original vision as well. A few years ago, \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/development-alters-s-f-s-road-of-churches-5243030.php\">a controversial new housing development went \u003c/a>up. Like other parts of San Francisco, this boulevard is bound to evolve with the ever-changing needs of the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>On the western edge of San Francisco, just south of San Francisco State and Parkmerced, you’ll find a street with the curious name … Brotherhood Way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The wide boulevard has a grassy median with mature trees, but what really makes Brotherhood Way stand out is its residents. Large buildings featuring the Star of David, an Eastern Orthodox cross and a crucifix — all in a row.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian\u003c/b>\u003cb>: \u003c/b>[speaking in Armenian] It means my name is Noor; what’s your name?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Noor Moughamian is a 5th grader at the KZV Armenian School, also on Brotherhood Way. They learn in both Armenian and English at her school, and just up the road is a Jewish school and a Catholic school, as well as several houses of worship from different faiths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian\u003c/b>\u003cb>: \u003c/b>I feel like it’s like kind of family, like, community, I feel like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>The schools plan activities together sometimes, and Noor says there’s a feeling of … brotherhood … just like the name. Across the street from the Armenian school, there’s even a little statue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian\u003c/b>\u003cb>: \u003c/b>\u003ci>[Reading]\u003c/i> Dedicated to the brotherhood of man and the ideal and the ideal of peace among all the peoples of the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003ci>Brotherhood\u003c/i> seems to be everywhere, and Noor wants to know if that was always the plan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian\u003c/b>\u003cb>: \u003c/b>I was just wondering if like, were the churches built onto the name of the street? Or was it? Or did they come up with the name and then decide to build churches and schools?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Bay Curious theme music starts\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>How did this quiet corner of San Francisco come to be home to so many religious communities? And which came first — Brotherhood Way or the institutions on it? Today’s question was selected by you, our podcast listeners in our monthly public voting round. It comes from Noor, who is 11 years old, but to answer it, we get to chat with one source who is 102! That’s all just ahead on Bay Curious, the show that answers your questions about the San Francisco Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> KQED Reporter Katherine Monahan set out to Brotherhood Way to check out the houses of worship and find the answer to Noor’s question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sounds of chanting\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> In the Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church, blue light shines from the stained glass windows and glitters on the gold-painted walls. The parishioners, in suits and dresses, are lining up to receive communion wine from a long, slim spoon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It all feels suffused with a solemn glory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>More chanting\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>This church has been around for over a century. And so has one of its members.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>I’m Ethel Davies, and I’m 102.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Davies lives nearby. She answers the door in a navy blue suit, pearls and red lipstick. She doesn’t plan on slowing down anytime soon, so I had to ask: what’s the secret?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>So many people, even my doctor ask me that one. I was a walker. I walked every street in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Davies says her family came from Greece in the early 1900s and settled south of Market.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in tape): \u003c/b>And were there a lot of Greek Orthodox people in San Francisco at that time?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies:\u003c/b> There were, there were. Yes. South of Market had Irish and Greek people. It was their neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Greektown, as it was called, had traditional coffeehouses and restaurants and a Greek language school. And that was where the Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church church used to be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>In fact, it was on 7th Street in San Francisco at one time. And today, that is a Ukrainian Orthodox church. And that’s where I was christened when I was an infant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Davies isn’t just a super impressive centenarian. She had a front-row seat to the development of Brotherhood Way because her brother, George Christopher, was the mayor largely responsible for it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>I had a total of two brothers and two sisters, and I was the youngest in the family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in tape): \u003c/b>And where was George in there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>Number one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>He was born back in Greece as George Christopheles but later changed the name to Christopher. When he was 14, their father became sick. So George dropped out of school and went to work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>My brother? He took over when my father died, and he made a good life for us. Yes, yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>George Christopher went into the milk business and worked his way into the middle class, like many of his fellow Greek immigrants. In the 30s, many Greek families and businesses moved away from Greektown to other neighborhoods. The Christopher family moved out to the southwest side of San Francisco near Lake Merced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, the area was still pretty undeveloped. What would later become Brotherhood Way was a forested canyon with a creek running into Lake Merced. Then, men employed by the New Deal built a road along it called Stanley Drive. It was straight and long and pretty isolated, so for a while, it was a popular drag racing spot for teenagers. At least one car ended up in the lake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music stops\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Davies remembers when her brother had the idea to turn that road into a community space.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>He wanted it to be a church area where all the different churches could meet and be friendly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in tape): \u003c/b>I assume that he had a relationship with the pastor of the Greek church especially?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>Father Anthony. Yes, yes. He was a wonderful man.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>So after George Christopher became the mayor of San Francisco in 1956, he arranged an auction of the city-owned lands along Stanley Drive. The biggest parcel went to the Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church — \u003ci>his church\u003c/i> — which was outgrowing its building south of Market. The rest of the properties went to other religious and community institutions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>It really makes friends of the various religions, which they’re all the same. We all believe in one thing, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>The faith institutions petitioned the city to change the name of their new address. And in 1958, Stanley Drive became Brotherhood Way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>And I think that Brotherhood Way is a wonderful name anyway, don’t you? Brotherhood Way, yeah. I remember when Father Anthony and my brother celebrated when they came across that name. They were so happy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>So the places of worship did come first, and the name followed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And now, Davies is stepping out for the evening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>Oh, I’m going to the yacht club with friends for dinner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>As Davies heads off to her busy social life, I head back to Brotherhood Way to meet another elder, Judge Quentin Kopp.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music stops\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quentin Kopp:\u003c/b> I’m a retired San Mateo County Superior Court judge. And before that, I was a California state senator.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Kopp was also on the San Francisco Board of Supervisors, and he knew George Christopher through politics. He meets me in front of the Jewish synagogue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quentin Kopp: \u003c/b>The building has been here since about 1963.\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>It’s tall and angular, with peaked red and blue stained glass windows. Kopp and his family have been coming here for six decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quentin Kopp: \u003c/b>In 1964, the first of three children was born. A boy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Of the original five buildings constructed on Brotherhood Way, four of them were houses of worship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in tape):\u003c/b> It seemed like religious institution, religious institution, religious institution and then the masonic temple, which, in my understanding, is not specifically religious. How does that fit in?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quentin Kopp: \u003c/b>Masonry was popular. There was more than one lodge in San Francisco.\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Masonry \u003ci>is\u003c/i> certainly a brotherhood — no women are allowed. It’s a worldwide secretive society that, while not religious, promotes fellowship and community service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quentin Kopp: \u003c/b>Masonry was strong. And, I think that is the origin of giving that property to the Masons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Over the years, Brotherhood Way has evolved to reflect people’s changing beliefs and affiliations. The original properties have been subdivided and new institutions have appeared.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Masonic lodge now rents space to two bridge clubs and a Christian church. Several community centers have opened on the street and an Armenian church,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Babbling sounds of people talking and kids playing\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of the most recent additions is a non-denominational Christian congregation called New North Church, where the Sunday service has just gotten out. Kids are running around out front, dodging between tables of coffee and pastries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rob Hall: \u003c/b>We’re like the new kid on the block. So we’re getting to know our neighbors more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> Pastor Rob Hall invites me inside the church, which is shaped like a giant triangle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rob Hall: \u003c/b>We know the Armenian Church. We know the the Jewish synagogue. And then we’re also getting to know all the RVs down on Lake Merced. And we, we, we do kind of an outreach where we bring coffee.\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Hall says it’s all about being neighborly and that he likes being near the other faith institutions on the street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rob Hall:\u003c/b> We may believe different doctrines and have different beliefs and core tenets, but my experience has been that we help each other because, you know, San Francisco is not an easy place to be a person of faith, no matter what your faith background is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Hall says people in San Francisco don’t go to church as much as they used to. A lot of his parishioners come from the peninsula.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rob Hall: \u003c/b>We have a lot of different ethnicities represented here and then we’re also multi-generational. So we have a lot of young families with kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>I called Noor, our question-asker, to see what she thinks about what I found.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian:\u003c/b> I mean, I guess I kind of thought that the street came after everything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in tape): \u003c/b>Yeah. I remember you saying at the beginning. So you were right. You were right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>So, she wasn’t very surprised that the churches came first and then the name Brotherhood Way. But she liked learning about the Christopher family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian: \u003c/b>When the brother stepped in when the father died, I thought that was pretty cool.\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>And she said the story made her think about her school a little differently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian: \u003c/b>It kind of shows that like all the other churches and like school, I guess it kind of shows that everyone on Brotherhood Way is more like a community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> That story was brought to us by KQED’s Katherine Monahan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The June voting round is up at BayCurious.org. If you haven’t cast your vote yet, mosey on over to check out the options.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 1: \u003c/b>I want to know more about earthquake cottages in SF. Are there any still around?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 2: \u003c/b>What you tell me about Brooks Island, the little sister to Angel Island in the San Francisco Bay? Are hikers allowed? Is there any way to get out there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 3: \u003c/b>What is the San Francisco Columbarium? I read that once, maybe while it was being restored, people’s remains were stored in the basement of the Coliseum theater on Clement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian:\u003c/b> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> This episode was edited by Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>Produced by me, Christopher Beale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>And me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/strong> Additional support from Xorje Olivares…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Everyone saying their own names: … \u003c/b>Tamuna Chkareuli, Bianca Taylor, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Xorje Olivares, Holly Kernan …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>And the whole KQED family. If you’ve been enjoying Bay Curious, please leave us a rating or a review. They help other people find our show, and honestly, they make our reporters feel super good about the work they’re doing. Thanks so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ethel Davies answers her door, looking downright spunky in a navy blue suit, pearls and red lipstick. She’s 102 years old and has lived in San Francisco all her life. She’s heading out for dinner with friends soon but invites me in for a chat about her older brother, George Christopher, who was a former mayor of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I found my way to Davies in search of answers to a question asked by Noor Moughamian, an 11-year-old student at the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kzv.org/\">KZV Armenian School\u003c/a> on Brotherhood Way. The street, on the southwest side of San Francisco, near Lake Merced and Stonestown Galleria, is a wide boulevard with many houses of worship side by side, including Jewish, Greek Orthodox, Catholic, Armenian and Presbyterian. There are also several schools and community centers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Noor thinks it’s unusual to see so many churches and schools clumped together. She wants to know which came first, the name Brotherhood Way or the institutions on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Going back to Greektown\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To answer Noor’s question about how Brotherhood Way got its name, it’s helpful to learn a little more about Davies’ family history and her older brother, George Christopher.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The family came from Greece in the early 1900s and settled south of Market Street. There were so many Greek businesses and residences in that area that it was often called Greektown back then. It had traditional coffeehouses, restaurants, a Greek language school and the Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s where I was christened when I was an infant,” said Davies. “So that’s been a continuation for me for 102 years.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11989939\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11989939\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/EthelDavies.jpg\" alt=\"Older woman in a navy blue pants suit poses by a fireplace.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"2089\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/EthelDavies.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/EthelDavies-800x870.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/EthelDavies-1020x1110.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/EthelDavies-160x174.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/EthelDavies-1412x1536.jpg 1412w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/EthelDavies-1882x2048.jpg 1882w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">At 102, Ethel Davies is still going strong. The younger sister of former San Francisco mayor George Christopher, here she poses before heading out to a dinner date with friends. \u003ccite>(Katherine Monahan/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>While Davies was born in the U.S., her eldest brother, George, was born back in Greece. Originally called George Christopheles, he later changed the name to George Christopher. When he was 14, their father became sick. So George dropped out of school and went to work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He took over when my father died, and he made a good life for us,” said Davies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Christopher went into the milk business and worked his way into the middle class. In the 1930s, many Greek families and businesses moved away from Greektown to other neighborhoods. The Christopher family moved out to the southwest side of San Francisco, near Lake Merced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, the area was still pretty undeveloped. What would later become Brotherhood Way was a forested canyon with a creek running into Lake Merced. During the Depression, men employed by the government as part of the New Deal built a road along it called \u003ca href=\"https://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=Brotherhood_Way\">Stanley Drive\u003c/a>. It was straight and long and pretty isolated, so for a while, it was a popular drag racing spot for teenagers. At least one car ended up in the lake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Davies remembers when her brother had the idea to turn that road into a community space.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He wanted it to be a church area where all the different churches could meet and be friendly,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After George Christopher became the mayor of San Francisco in 1956, he arranged an auction of the city-owned lands along Stanley Drive. The biggest parcel went to his church — the Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church — whose congregation was outgrowing its building south of Market. The rest of the properties went to other religious and community institutions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The faith institutions petitioned the city to change the name of their new address. And in 1958, Stanley Drive became Brotherhood Way.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>An evolving sense of community\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Over the years, Brotherhood Way has evolved to reflect people’s changing beliefs and affiliations. The original properties have been subdivided, and new institutions have appeared.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Freemasons bought one of the original parcels and built a lodge on the street. However, as membership has waned over the years, the group now rents its space to a Christian church and two bridge clubs. Several community centers have also opened along Brotherhood Way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11989951\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11989951\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Peace-statue.jpg\" alt=\"30 foot cylindrical statue sits on a patch of dirt with housing behind.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"2466\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Peace-statue.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Peace-statue-800x1028.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Peace-statue-1020x1310.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Peace-statue-160x206.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Peace-statue-1196x1536.jpg 1196w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Peace-statue-1595x2048.jpg 1595w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The \u003ca href=\"https://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=Beniamino_Bufano_on_Public_Art\">Italian sculptor Benny Bufano created this peace statue\u003c/a>. It originally sat at SFO but now resides on Brotherhood Way. \u003ccite>(Katherine Monahan/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>One of the most recent additions to the street is a non-denominational Christian congregation called New North Church.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We may believe different doctrines and have different beliefs and core tenets, but my experience has been that we help each other,” said Pastor Rob Hall of the other faith institutions on the street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hall said that in his experience, people in San Francisco don’t go to church as much as they used to — a lot of his parishioners now come from the peninsula — but they’re still a vibrant faith community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We have a lot of different ethnicities represented here and then we’re also multi-generational,” he said. Beyond the growing number of churches, schools and community organizations on Brotherhood Way, there have been other changes to George Christopher’s original vision as well. A few years ago, \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/development-alters-s-f-s-road-of-churches-5243030.php\">a controversial new housing development went \u003c/a>up. Like other parts of San Francisco, this boulevard is bound to evolve with the ever-changing needs of the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>On the western edge of San Francisco, just south of San Francisco State and Parkmerced, you’ll find a street with the curious name … Brotherhood Way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The wide boulevard has a grassy median with mature trees, but what really makes Brotherhood Way stand out is its residents. Large buildings featuring the Star of David, an Eastern Orthodox cross and a crucifix — all in a row.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian\u003c/b>\u003cb>: \u003c/b>[speaking in Armenian] It means my name is Noor; what’s your name?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Noor Moughamian is a 5th grader at the KZV Armenian School, also on Brotherhood Way. They learn in both Armenian and English at her school, and just up the road is a Jewish school and a Catholic school, as well as several houses of worship from different faiths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian\u003c/b>\u003cb>: \u003c/b>I feel like it’s like kind of family, like, community, I feel like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>The schools plan activities together sometimes, and Noor says there’s a feeling of … brotherhood … just like the name. Across the street from the Armenian school, there’s even a little statue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian\u003c/b>\u003cb>: \u003c/b>\u003ci>[Reading]\u003c/i> Dedicated to the brotherhood of man and the ideal and the ideal of peace among all the peoples of the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003ci>Brotherhood\u003c/i> seems to be everywhere, and Noor wants to know if that was always the plan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian\u003c/b>\u003cb>: \u003c/b>I was just wondering if like, were the churches built onto the name of the street? Or was it? Or did they come up with the name and then decide to build churches and schools?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Bay Curious theme music starts\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>How did this quiet corner of San Francisco come to be home to so many religious communities? And which came first — Brotherhood Way or the institutions on it? Today’s question was selected by you, our podcast listeners in our monthly public voting round. It comes from Noor, who is 11 years old, but to answer it, we get to chat with one source who is 102! That’s all just ahead on Bay Curious, the show that answers your questions about the San Francisco Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> KQED Reporter Katherine Monahan set out to Brotherhood Way to check out the houses of worship and find the answer to Noor’s question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sounds of chanting\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> In the Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church, blue light shines from the stained glass windows and glitters on the gold-painted walls. The parishioners, in suits and dresses, are lining up to receive communion wine from a long, slim spoon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It all feels suffused with a solemn glory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>More chanting\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>This church has been around for over a century. And so has one of its members.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>I’m Ethel Davies, and I’m 102.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Davies lives nearby. She answers the door in a navy blue suit, pearls and red lipstick. She doesn’t plan on slowing down anytime soon, so I had to ask: what’s the secret?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>So many people, even my doctor ask me that one. I was a walker. I walked every street in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Davies says her family came from Greece in the early 1900s and settled south of Market.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in tape): \u003c/b>And were there a lot of Greek Orthodox people in San Francisco at that time?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies:\u003c/b> There were, there were. Yes. South of Market had Irish and Greek people. It was their neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Greektown, as it was called, had traditional coffeehouses and restaurants and a Greek language school. And that was where the Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church church used to be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>In fact, it was on 7th Street in San Francisco at one time. And today, that is a Ukrainian Orthodox church. And that’s where I was christened when I was an infant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Davies isn’t just a super impressive centenarian. She had a front-row seat to the development of Brotherhood Way because her brother, George Christopher, was the mayor largely responsible for it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>I had a total of two brothers and two sisters, and I was the youngest in the family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in tape): \u003c/b>And where was George in there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>Number one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>He was born back in Greece as George Christopheles but later changed the name to Christopher. When he was 14, their father became sick. So George dropped out of school and went to work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>My brother? He took over when my father died, and he made a good life for us. Yes, yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>George Christopher went into the milk business and worked his way into the middle class, like many of his fellow Greek immigrants. In the 30s, many Greek families and businesses moved away from Greektown to other neighborhoods. The Christopher family moved out to the southwest side of San Francisco near Lake Merced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, the area was still pretty undeveloped. What would later become Brotherhood Way was a forested canyon with a creek running into Lake Merced. Then, men employed by the New Deal built a road along it called Stanley Drive. It was straight and long and pretty isolated, so for a while, it was a popular drag racing spot for teenagers. At least one car ended up in the lake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music stops\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Davies remembers when her brother had the idea to turn that road into a community space.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>He wanted it to be a church area where all the different churches could meet and be friendly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in tape): \u003c/b>I assume that he had a relationship with the pastor of the Greek church especially?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>Father Anthony. Yes, yes. He was a wonderful man.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>So after George Christopher became the mayor of San Francisco in 1956, he arranged an auction of the city-owned lands along Stanley Drive. The biggest parcel went to the Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church — \u003ci>his church\u003c/i> — which was outgrowing its building south of Market. The rest of the properties went to other religious and community institutions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>It really makes friends of the various religions, which they’re all the same. We all believe in one thing, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>The faith institutions petitioned the city to change the name of their new address. And in 1958, Stanley Drive became Brotherhood Way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>And I think that Brotherhood Way is a wonderful name anyway, don’t you? Brotherhood Way, yeah. I remember when Father Anthony and my brother celebrated when they came across that name. They were so happy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>So the places of worship did come first, and the name followed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And now, Davies is stepping out for the evening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>Oh, I’m going to the yacht club with friends for dinner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>As Davies heads off to her busy social life, I head back to Brotherhood Way to meet another elder, Judge Quentin Kopp.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music stops\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quentin Kopp:\u003c/b> I’m a retired San Mateo County Superior Court judge. And before that, I was a California state senator.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Kopp was also on the San Francisco Board of Supervisors, and he knew George Christopher through politics. He meets me in front of the Jewish synagogue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quentin Kopp: \u003c/b>The building has been here since about 1963.\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>It’s tall and angular, with peaked red and blue stained glass windows. Kopp and his family have been coming here for six decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quentin Kopp: \u003c/b>In 1964, the first of three children was born. A boy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Of the original five buildings constructed on Brotherhood Way, four of them were houses of worship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in tape):\u003c/b> It seemed like religious institution, religious institution, religious institution and then the masonic temple, which, in my understanding, is not specifically religious. How does that fit in?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quentin Kopp: \u003c/b>Masonry was popular. There was more than one lodge in San Francisco.\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Masonry \u003ci>is\u003c/i> certainly a brotherhood — no women are allowed. It’s a worldwide secretive society that, while not religious, promotes fellowship and community service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quentin Kopp: \u003c/b>Masonry was strong. And, I think that is the origin of giving that property to the Masons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Over the years, Brotherhood Way has evolved to reflect people’s changing beliefs and affiliations. The original properties have been subdivided and new institutions have appeared.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Masonic lodge now rents space to two bridge clubs and a Christian church. Several community centers have opened on the street and an Armenian church,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Babbling sounds of people talking and kids playing\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of the most recent additions is a non-denominational Christian congregation called New North Church, where the Sunday service has just gotten out. Kids are running around out front, dodging between tables of coffee and pastries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rob Hall: \u003c/b>We’re like the new kid on the block. So we’re getting to know our neighbors more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> Pastor Rob Hall invites me inside the church, which is shaped like a giant triangle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rob Hall: \u003c/b>We know the Armenian Church. We know the the Jewish synagogue. And then we’re also getting to know all the RVs down on Lake Merced. And we, we, we do kind of an outreach where we bring coffee.\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Hall says it’s all about being neighborly and that he likes being near the other faith institutions on the street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rob Hall:\u003c/b> We may believe different doctrines and have different beliefs and core tenets, but my experience has been that we help each other because, you know, San Francisco is not an easy place to be a person of faith, no matter what your faith background is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Hall says people in San Francisco don’t go to church as much as they used to. A lot of his parishioners come from the peninsula.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rob Hall: \u003c/b>We have a lot of different ethnicities represented here and then we’re also multi-generational. So we have a lot of young families with kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>I called Noor, our question-asker, to see what she thinks about what I found.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian:\u003c/b> I mean, I guess I kind of thought that the street came after everything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in tape): \u003c/b>Yeah. I remember you saying at the beginning. So you were right. You were right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>So, she wasn’t very surprised that the churches came first and then the name Brotherhood Way. But she liked learning about the Christopher family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian: \u003c/b>When the brother stepped in when the father died, I thought that was pretty cool.\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>And she said the story made her think about her school a little differently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian: \u003c/b>It kind of shows that like all the other churches and like school, I guess it kind of shows that everyone on Brotherhood Way is more like a community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> That story was brought to us by KQED’s Katherine Monahan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The June voting round is up at BayCurious.org. If you haven’t cast your vote yet, mosey on over to check out the options.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 1: \u003c/b>I want to know more about earthquake cottages in SF. Are there any still around?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 2: \u003c/b>What you tell me about Brooks Island, the little sister to Angel Island in the San Francisco Bay? Are hikers allowed? Is there any way to get out there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 3: \u003c/b>What is the San Francisco Columbarium? I read that once, maybe while it was being restored, people’s remains were stored in the basement of the Coliseum theater on Clement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian:\u003c/b> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> This episode was edited by Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>Produced by me, Christopher Beale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>And me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/strong> Additional support from Xorje Olivares…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Everyone saying their own names: … \u003c/b>Tamuna Chkareuli, Bianca Taylor, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Xorje Olivares, Holly Kernan …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>And the whole KQED family. If you’ve been enjoying Bay Curious, please leave us a rating or a review. They help other people find our show, and honestly, they make our reporters feel super good about the work they’re doing. Thanks so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Feel Like the SF Bay Used to Be Bluer? You're Not Imagining It",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If the \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViG0XoKgnVs\">Heart of the Ocean\u003c/a> is a big blue diamond, the Heart of San Francisco Bay would be a big muddy emerald — or maybe more like a jade stone? Malachite? What I’m saying is, she’s green.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It hasn’t always been that way, though. When Bay Curious listener Justin Hartung was growing up in Oakland, he remembers the bay being blue. After moving to New York for college in the early ’90s, and returning to the East Bay a couple of years ago, he noticed a big difference in the hue of the harbor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I remembered it being much more blue,” he says. “So I wondered if that was a thing, or if I was just remembering things incorrectly.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Justin is not wrong. The bay is, in fact, greener now than it was in 1992. It’s the result of a chain reaction of natural processes that includes the rotation of the Earth and something called a trophic cascade.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>It ain’t easy being green\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>What makes the water appear green are lots of microscopic marine algae called \u003ca href=\"https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/phyto.html\">phytoplankton\u003c/a>. These photosynthetic organisms contain the same chlorophyll that makes plants green. Though they’re tiny, phytoplankton represent the largest biomass in the bay. They typically go through a large bloom in the spring and early summer, providing a plentiful food source for many other aquatic organisms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786309\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11786309\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074-1200x800.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074.jpg 1254w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Volvox is a polyphyletic genus of chlorophyte green algae or phytoplankton. \u003ccite>(tonaquatic/iStock)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The animals that feed on phytoplankton include filter feeders like clams and mussels. Back in the early ’90s, when Justin was still in the Bay Area, the clam and mussel populations kept the phytoplankton numbers in check. But toward the end of the decade, things started to shift. We know this only because someone has been keeping track.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Surprises are new discoveries\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Jim Cloern is a retired aquatic ecologist who spent his 43-year career with the U.S. Geological Survey studying San Francisco Bay. He was \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/insidethegoldengatepart1\">part of a team\u003c/a> that maintains a record of water quality in the bay by doing regular sampling at set locations. The data set goes back to 1968, a longevity most other U.S. waterways don’t have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>“It’s very unusual in the United States,” Cloern says, “I think this USGS program is the longest continuing program of research observation in a bay or estuary in the United States.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The program is still running, and scientists head out on sampling cruises about once a month. They started on the \u003ca href=\"https://sfbay.wr.usgs.gov/access/wqdata/overview/measure/polaris.html\">R/V Polaris,\u003c/a> and in 2016, moved operations to the \u003ca href=\"https://sfbay.wr.usgs.gov/access/wqdata/overview/wherewhen/2018cruise.html\">catamaran David H. Peterson\u003c/a>, named for the late founder of the project. There’s a new generation of team members now; some work for the USGS, others are PhD candidates doing doctoral research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786416\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/img_3667/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11786416\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_3667-e1573682049623.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The first light of day as the David H. Peterson takes off from the Port of Redwood City. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786413\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/img_3689/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11786413\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_3689-e1573681974504.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Captain Joel Fritsch is at the helm of the USGS vessel David H. Peterson. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786410\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/img_3727/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11786410\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_3727-e1573681694172.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">PhD candidate Niky Taylor is on the vessel doing doctoral research about the color of the water. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786411\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/img_3714/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11786411\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_3714-e1573681807629.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Charlie Martin collects a sample from the continuous surface water sampler in the boat’s lab. Later the phytoplankton DNA will be sequenced to see which species are present. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786412\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/img_3701/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11786412\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_3701-e1573681909518.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Erica Nejad prepares for the next sampling stop, where she will drop the CTD (pictured in the background) down into the water to take measurements. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The David H. Peterson, helmed by \u003ca href=\"https://sfbay.wr.usgs.gov/access/wqdata/overview/people/joel.html\">Capt. Joel Fritsch,\u003c/a> takes off from the Port of Redwood City in the predawn hours and heads south, under the Dumbarton Bridge, to their first sampling station. There they turn around and begin the long trek through the entire bay, all the way into the mouth of the Sacramento River.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At each location Fritsch positions the boat, then calls out to the scientists on board that they’re free to begin working. The team jumps to action. With so many sampling locations and so far to go, they have only minutes to do the work they’re here for, and the distance between the stops is sometimes as short as five or seven minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786346\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 317px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/stnmaplt.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" wp-image-11786346\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/stnmaplt.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"317\" height=\"340\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/stnmaplt.jpg 601w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/stnmaplt-160x172.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 317px) 100vw, 317px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A map of the locations where water sampling is conducted by USGS scientists. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of USGS)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The information being gathered includes the temperature, salinity, turbidity or cloudiness, and chlorophyll concentrations. Water samples are also being collected from the bottom of the bay and along the surface water. They’re stored for later research and DNA sequencing to keep track of which phytoplankton species are present.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cloern says maintaining this robust data set is vital to keeping track of the bay. “The longer we do this, the more we’re surprised,” he says, “and surprises are new discoveries.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s because of this monitoring that the USGS team noticed a shift in the phytoplankton concentrations in the late ’90s.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>One thing leads to another\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Starting around 1998–99, phytoplankton populations rose. The researchers saw blooms in the fall, which was very unusual. After consulting with colleagues who research bivalves in the bay, they discovered that clam and mussel populations had dropped significantly. These animals would normally filter out the phytoplankton, but their low numbers meant phytoplankton were proliferating and causing a greening period in the water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It took the USGS team several more years to discover the cause for the low numbers of bivalves. Eventually they found that it’s all the result of a \u003ca href=\"https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2010GL044774\">massive climate shift\u003c/a> that began around that time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The direction of the prevailing winds in the north Pacific Ocean has been observed to oscillate every 30 to 40 years. The last of these shifts occurred in the late ’90s, with the direction shifting from a south to north pattern, to a north to south pattern. Because of the Coriolis effect caused by the rotation of the Earth, the north to south winds cause the surface water along the coast to push west.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As the currents push west, they also churn up colder, more nutrient-dense water from the bottom of the ocean. This process is called coastal upwelling. Many marine animals thrive in this nutrient-rich water, setting off a trophic cascade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Flatfish, crabs and shrimp all use San Francisco Bay as a nursery for their young. When this coastal upwelling began to occur, their populations grew, leading to more juveniles in the bay. All of these organisms eat clams and mussels, which led to a drop in those populations. That’s how you end up with more phytoplankton abundance and greener water.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Can we ever go back to blue?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>This North Pacific oscillation process is a natural one and is not the result of human-caused climate change. It is likely that in the next of these large wind shifts, the pattern will reverse, leading to an increase in bivalve populations and fewer phytoplankton, thus bluer water. As long as the USGS sampling program continues, we’ll be able to track those changes over the long term.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article first published November 14, 2019 and was updated and republished on June 6, 2024.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> If you spend any time along the shores or on the water inside the Golden Gate, you may have thought the bay looks less ocean blue and more olive green these days. Justin Hartung definitely thinks so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Hartung:\u003c/strong> Yes, I noticed it driving across the bridge mostly. I live right here in Emeryville, so the water, especially right here by the bridge, is really green some days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Justin grew up in Oakland’s Montclair neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Hartung: \u003c/strong>Moved to New York around 1992 for college.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And when he moved back a couple years ago, the bay itself looked very different to him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Hartung: \u003c/strong>I remember it being much more blue, so I wondered if that was a thing or if I was just remembering things incorrectly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> This is Bay curious, the show where we answer listener questions about the San Francisco Bay area. Today on the show, we’ll find out if Justin’s observations hold water. We’ll learn what makes water appear different colors, and meet some scientists who have been studying this very question for decades. This story first aired in 2019. I’m Olivia Ellen Price. We’ll get to it right after this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Justin Hartung brought his question to Bay. Curious. You selected it in a public voting round, and now reporter Amanda Font heads out in search of answers about the colors of the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>Incremental change is hard to see when you’re looking at something every day, like how your hair looks just as long today as it did yesterday. Even though it has grown a little, you could look at an old photo of yourself to see a difference, but that won’t work. If we’re looking for subtle color changes in the bay, the only way to know for sure is through data. And lots of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Many parts of the bay are very different today than they were 43 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Luckily, someone has been collecting that data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Hartung:\u003c/strong> My name is Jim Cloern. I’m trained as a lake biologist, but I’ve spent my entire career working in San Francisco Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Jim is recently retired from the U.S. Geological Survey, but he spent more than four decades studying how the bay is influenced by human activities, and he’s seen a lot of change. I asked Jim if he could answer Justin’s question just straight up. Is the Bay really greener?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Okay. But the color of water is a pretty complicated subject.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> All right, kids, buckle up for some science.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> When I think about the color of water in California, the first thing I think about is Lake Tahoe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>You’ve probably seen those bumper stickers that say Keep Tahoe Blue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Well, what does that mean? Lake Tahoe is pretty much snow melt is pretty close to pure water. It doesn’t have much in it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> And if you held up a drop and looked at it, it would pretty much be clear. It’s light that influences how we see the color of water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> So water absorbs red and green and orange and yellow and violet, but it doesn’t absorb blue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Blue light has a much shorter wavelength. So unlike the colors of light with longer wavelengths, same red or orange, it doesn’t snake through the water molecules as easily. It bangs into that. And where they hit the molecules. The blue light waves scatter. And your eye perceives more blue light.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> And so when sunlight penetrates into a lake like Lake Tahoe, all of these other colors are absorbed by the water. But what’s left behind is the blue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> This light scattering is also the reason the sky looks blue. So if when you were a kid, your mom or dad told you the sky is blue because it reflects the ocean, and the ocean is blue because it reflects the sky? Yeah, they probably just didn’t know the answer. Or you were asking too many questions. So in the bay, when you see any other color besides blue, you’re really seeing particles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Particles and other colors. There are living particles and there are non-living particles. The non-living particles are mostly clay particles that come from soils.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> This sediment gets into the water through erosion runoff after it rains, and via the multiple rivers that flow into the bay. Currents churn up the sediment, which can make the water look brown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> The living particles are microscopic algae. Phytoplankton. The phytoplankton have the same chlorophyl that land plants have that makes them green.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> It’s these phytoplankton that give the water a greenish hue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Now the question of has there been a long term trend of greenness in the bay? It’s it sounds like a simple question, but it’s not as simple and straightforward as you would think, because we have all these sources of variability.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> The bay isn’t a static thing. It changes seasonally. Day to day, hour to hour.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> And so if there’s a long term trend, all of that variability makes it hard to detect a long term pattern of change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Here’s where all the data comes in at the USGS. Jim was also part of a project that since 1968, has been collecting water samples in the bay to measure changes over time. These sampling cruises happen about once a month. I talked with Erika Nejat on one of them. She’s a biologist who works for the USGS. This day, she was using specialized instruments to collect the measurements of several different factors, including chlorophyl content.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Nejat:\u003c/strong> So? So the CTD is taking vertical profiles of the water column at different stations. Every station we stop at is getting a. Complete vertical profile of the app space and time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> The CTD that stands for conductivity, temperature and depth is a bundle of different sensors attached together. At the end of a cable at each of the sampling locations, Erica lowers this thing slowly to the bottom of the bed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Nejat: \u003c/strong>They added this nice camera so I can see what the CTD’s at surface. So I want to start right sitting at surface, and then I go to as close to bottom as I can get without rubbing it into the bottom. So I can see my depth here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> All the way down. It’s scanning, taking measurements and reporting them back. It comes back up with a sample of deep water so they can study the phytoplankton species later. There’s also a continuous surface water sampler running inside the lab on the boat, and a special instrument that is taking pictures of individual phytoplankton in real time. They’re collecting a ton of information so that when you look at the larger data set, patterns start to emerge. Here’s Jim again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> We have measured over the last two decades a trend of increasing phytoplankton. So two things are going on that would make the bay look greener over time. Decreased sediment input, less brown, increasing phytoplankton abundance more green. So yes, there is a trend of increasing greenness in the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>There you have it. It is greener. But we’re not done yet. Because, like Ricardo Montalban in The Wrath of Khan, I want to know why. Why? Why are there more phytoplankton now than before?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Now we need to talk about biological communities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>Phytoplankton are small, but they take up a lot of space. Little on the aggregate, but massive on the whole.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> If you could weigh all of the communities that live in the bay the phytoplankton, the bacteria, the clams, them, the mussels, the crabs, the fish, the phytoplankton would weigh the most. It’s the living component that has the largest living biomass in the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> They’re right at the base of the food web. A lot of them are eaten by clams and mussels, which are filter feeders. They pull in and blow out water through a tube like structure called a siphon, and in the process, they filter out the nutritious phytoplankton. They used to do this at a pretty astounding rate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> And we calculated this is over three decades ago, that if you if you know how many clams and mussels are in the bay, how large they are, you can calculate how fast they’re filtering water. The clams and mussels that live in the bay are pumping a volume of water that’s equal to the volume of water in the bay every one or two days during the summertime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> If you’ve ever gone swimming in the bay and gotten water in your mouth, just know that it has probably been filtered through a clam. So back before 1998, those clams and mussels were keeping the phytoplankton population under control. But then things started to shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>And in 1999, we started seeing changes in the seasonal pattern of the phytoplankton. We saw bloom in the autumn. We’d never seen anything like that before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>Our question asker, Justin, was living in New York in 1999, so he didn’t see this shift until it was well underway. The extra phytoplankton blooms were a mystery to Jim and the team, until they checked in with their colleagues who study the clams. They could hardly find any in the bay, but other species numbers were growing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> They started seeing record high numbers of crabs in the bay, flatfish in the bay like, you know, Seoul and record high numbers of shrimp.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Those animals are all coastal marine organisms who live their adult lives in the ocean. But they’re young. Spend the first year or two of life in the shelter of the bay, and they all eat clams.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So Amanda, to make sure I have this starting in 1999, we have more clam eaters, fewer clams, thus more photo plankton and greener water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>Yeah, this is called a trophic cascade. A change in one part of the food web sets off a cascading effect on the other organisms in it, and the clam eater numbers are still up, which is why the water is still that rich shade of artichoke.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Why the sudden influx of other animals?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong> We have learned over the last couple of decades that there are natural cycles of the climate system that fluctuate over periods of multiple decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>There are these huge wind oscillations that happen way out in the North Pacific Ocean. Around 1999, the direction of the winds shifted in a way that caused the ocean along our coast to churn up cold water from the deep. This is called coastal upwelling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>And the cold, deep water is rich in nutrients. So this phase of strong winds, strong upwelling is a period of high biological productivity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All right. So the winds blow. It shifts the ocean climate feeds the flatfish, crabs and shrimp. Their babies drift into the bay, eat the clams. The photo plankton populations grow and the water turns green.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>That’s how it works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And this has something to do with human caused climate change, I assume.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>Actually, no. Jim made it clear that this is not something that has been caused by human actions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>These aren’t responses to global climate change. This is part of the natural oscillation of the climate system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Does that mean the water will eventually go back to looking more blue?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>So this greening period that we’ve experienced since 1998, we might reverse that pattern if we see this next climate shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>The only way we’ll really know for sure is if we keep collecting data so we can observe long term changes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>It’s really important for us to keep making measurements, keep making observations, because the longer we do this, the more we’re surprised. And surprises are new discoveries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was reporter Amanda Font. She took the story back to listener Justin Hartung to see what he thought.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>I’m glad to know that it’s not the climate. I’m glad to know it’s not my failing eyesight or my bad memory. So. Mystery definitely solved. I can also tell my dad that I am not crazy. What she told me was when I told him about this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So thanks for asking the question, Justin. If you’re digging the podcast, you will definitely dig \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/bay-curious\">our email newsletter\u003c/a>. We send it out the first Wednesday of the month, and it has answers to more listener questions, and we have time to get into on the show. Plus, behind the scenes tidbits like how we used a theremin to make sounds for this episode. Okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Ok, try now. I’m so sweaty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/bay-curious\">Subscribe at Bay curious.org\u003c/a> and you can always find a link in our show notes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Hartung:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Beale: \u003c/strong>Produced by Christopher Beale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And me Olivia Allen Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Lancour:\u003c/strong> Additional support from Paul Lancour.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jen Chien: \u003c/strong>Jen Chien.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie Sprenger:\u003c/strong> Katie Sprenger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cesar Saldaña:\u003c/strong> Cesar Saldaña.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Maha Sanad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holly Kernan:\u003c/strong> Holly Kernan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And the whole KQED family. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "A Bay Curious listener remembers when San Francisco Bay was more blue. Why the change?",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If the \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViG0XoKgnVs\">Heart of the Ocean\u003c/a> is a big blue diamond, the Heart of San Francisco Bay would be a big muddy emerald — or maybe more like a jade stone? Malachite? What I’m saying is, she’s green.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It hasn’t always been that way, though. When Bay Curious listener Justin Hartung was growing up in Oakland, he remembers the bay being blue. After moving to New York for college in the early ’90s, and returning to the East Bay a couple of years ago, he noticed a big difference in the hue of the harbor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I remembered it being much more blue,” he says. “So I wondered if that was a thing, or if I was just remembering things incorrectly.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Justin is not wrong. The bay is, in fact, greener now than it was in 1992. It’s the result of a chain reaction of natural processes that includes the rotation of the Earth and something called a trophic cascade.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>It ain’t easy being green\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>What makes the water appear green are lots of microscopic marine algae called \u003ca href=\"https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/phyto.html\">phytoplankton\u003c/a>. These photosynthetic organisms contain the same chlorophyll that makes plants green. Though they’re tiny, phytoplankton represent the largest biomass in the bay. They typically go through a large bloom in the spring and early summer, providing a plentiful food source for many other aquatic organisms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786309\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11786309\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074-1200x800.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074.jpg 1254w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Volvox is a polyphyletic genus of chlorophyte green algae or phytoplankton. \u003ccite>(tonaquatic/iStock)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The animals that feed on phytoplankton include filter feeders like clams and mussels. Back in the early ’90s, when Justin was still in the Bay Area, the clam and mussel populations kept the phytoplankton numbers in check. But toward the end of the decade, things started to shift. We know this only because someone has been keeping track.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Surprises are new discoveries\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Jim Cloern is a retired aquatic ecologist who spent his 43-year career with the U.S. Geological Survey studying San Francisco Bay. He was \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/insidethegoldengatepart1\">part of a team\u003c/a> that maintains a record of water quality in the bay by doing regular sampling at set locations. The data set goes back to 1968, a longevity most other U.S. waterways don’t have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>“It’s very unusual in the United States,” Cloern says, “I think this USGS program is the longest continuing program of research observation in a bay or estuary in the United States.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The program is still running, and scientists head out on sampling cruises about once a month. They started on the \u003ca href=\"https://sfbay.wr.usgs.gov/access/wqdata/overview/measure/polaris.html\">R/V Polaris,\u003c/a> and in 2016, moved operations to the \u003ca href=\"https://sfbay.wr.usgs.gov/access/wqdata/overview/wherewhen/2018cruise.html\">catamaran David H. Peterson\u003c/a>, named for the late founder of the project. There’s a new generation of team members now; some work for the USGS, others are PhD candidates doing doctoral research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786416\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/img_3667/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11786416\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_3667-e1573682049623.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The first light of day as the David H. Peterson takes off from the Port of Redwood City. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786413\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/img_3689/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11786413\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_3689-e1573681974504.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Captain Joel Fritsch is at the helm of the USGS vessel David H. Peterson. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786410\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/img_3727/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11786410\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_3727-e1573681694172.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">PhD candidate Niky Taylor is on the vessel doing doctoral research about the color of the water. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786411\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/img_3714/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11786411\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_3714-e1573681807629.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Charlie Martin collects a sample from the continuous surface water sampler in the boat’s lab. Later the phytoplankton DNA will be sequenced to see which species are present. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786412\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/img_3701/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11786412\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_3701-e1573681909518.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Erica Nejad prepares for the next sampling stop, where she will drop the CTD (pictured in the background) down into the water to take measurements. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The David H. Peterson, helmed by \u003ca href=\"https://sfbay.wr.usgs.gov/access/wqdata/overview/people/joel.html\">Capt. Joel Fritsch,\u003c/a> takes off from the Port of Redwood City in the predawn hours and heads south, under the Dumbarton Bridge, to their first sampling station. There they turn around and begin the long trek through the entire bay, all the way into the mouth of the Sacramento River.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At each location Fritsch positions the boat, then calls out to the scientists on board that they’re free to begin working. The team jumps to action. With so many sampling locations and so far to go, they have only minutes to do the work they’re here for, and the distance between the stops is sometimes as short as five or seven minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786346\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 317px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/stnmaplt.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" wp-image-11786346\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/stnmaplt.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"317\" height=\"340\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/stnmaplt.jpg 601w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/stnmaplt-160x172.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 317px) 100vw, 317px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A map of the locations where water sampling is conducted by USGS scientists. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of USGS)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The information being gathered includes the temperature, salinity, turbidity or cloudiness, and chlorophyll concentrations. Water samples are also being collected from the bottom of the bay and along the surface water. They’re stored for later research and DNA sequencing to keep track of which phytoplankton species are present.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cloern says maintaining this robust data set is vital to keeping track of the bay. “The longer we do this, the more we’re surprised,” he says, “and surprises are new discoveries.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s because of this monitoring that the USGS team noticed a shift in the phytoplankton concentrations in the late ’90s.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>One thing leads to another\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Starting around 1998–99, phytoplankton populations rose. The researchers saw blooms in the fall, which was very unusual. After consulting with colleagues who research bivalves in the bay, they discovered that clam and mussel populations had dropped significantly. These animals would normally filter out the phytoplankton, but their low numbers meant phytoplankton were proliferating and causing a greening period in the water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It took the USGS team several more years to discover the cause for the low numbers of bivalves. Eventually they found that it’s all the result of a \u003ca href=\"https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2010GL044774\">massive climate shift\u003c/a> that began around that time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The direction of the prevailing winds in the north Pacific Ocean has been observed to oscillate every 30 to 40 years. The last of these shifts occurred in the late ’90s, with the direction shifting from a south to north pattern, to a north to south pattern. Because of the Coriolis effect caused by the rotation of the Earth, the north to south winds cause the surface water along the coast to push west.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As the currents push west, they also churn up colder, more nutrient-dense water from the bottom of the ocean. This process is called coastal upwelling. Many marine animals thrive in this nutrient-rich water, setting off a trophic cascade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Flatfish, crabs and shrimp all use San Francisco Bay as a nursery for their young. When this coastal upwelling began to occur, their populations grew, leading to more juveniles in the bay. All of these organisms eat clams and mussels, which led to a drop in those populations. That’s how you end up with more phytoplankton abundance and greener water.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Can we ever go back to blue?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>This North Pacific oscillation process is a natural one and is not the result of human-caused climate change. It is likely that in the next of these large wind shifts, the pattern will reverse, leading to an increase in bivalve populations and fewer phytoplankton, thus bluer water. As long as the USGS sampling program continues, we’ll be able to track those changes over the long term.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article first published November 14, 2019 and was updated and republished on June 6, 2024.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> If you spend any time along the shores or on the water inside the Golden Gate, you may have thought the bay looks less ocean blue and more olive green these days. Justin Hartung definitely thinks so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Hartung:\u003c/strong> Yes, I noticed it driving across the bridge mostly. I live right here in Emeryville, so the water, especially right here by the bridge, is really green some days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Justin grew up in Oakland’s Montclair neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Hartung: \u003c/strong>Moved to New York around 1992 for college.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And when he moved back a couple years ago, the bay itself looked very different to him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Hartung: \u003c/strong>I remember it being much more blue, so I wondered if that was a thing or if I was just remembering things incorrectly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> This is Bay curious, the show where we answer listener questions about the San Francisco Bay area. Today on the show, we’ll find out if Justin’s observations hold water. We’ll learn what makes water appear different colors, and meet some scientists who have been studying this very question for decades. This story first aired in 2019. I’m Olivia Ellen Price. We’ll get to it right after this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Justin Hartung brought his question to Bay. Curious. You selected it in a public voting round, and now reporter Amanda Font heads out in search of answers about the colors of the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>Incremental change is hard to see when you’re looking at something every day, like how your hair looks just as long today as it did yesterday. Even though it has grown a little, you could look at an old photo of yourself to see a difference, but that won’t work. If we’re looking for subtle color changes in the bay, the only way to know for sure is through data. And lots of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Many parts of the bay are very different today than they were 43 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Luckily, someone has been collecting that data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Hartung:\u003c/strong> My name is Jim Cloern. I’m trained as a lake biologist, but I’ve spent my entire career working in San Francisco Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Jim is recently retired from the U.S. Geological Survey, but he spent more than four decades studying how the bay is influenced by human activities, and he’s seen a lot of change. I asked Jim if he could answer Justin’s question just straight up. Is the Bay really greener?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Okay. But the color of water is a pretty complicated subject.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> All right, kids, buckle up for some science.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> When I think about the color of water in California, the first thing I think about is Lake Tahoe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>You’ve probably seen those bumper stickers that say Keep Tahoe Blue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Well, what does that mean? Lake Tahoe is pretty much snow melt is pretty close to pure water. It doesn’t have much in it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> And if you held up a drop and looked at it, it would pretty much be clear. It’s light that influences how we see the color of water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> So water absorbs red and green and orange and yellow and violet, but it doesn’t absorb blue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Blue light has a much shorter wavelength. So unlike the colors of light with longer wavelengths, same red or orange, it doesn’t snake through the water molecules as easily. It bangs into that. And where they hit the molecules. The blue light waves scatter. And your eye perceives more blue light.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> And so when sunlight penetrates into a lake like Lake Tahoe, all of these other colors are absorbed by the water. But what’s left behind is the blue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> This light scattering is also the reason the sky looks blue. So if when you were a kid, your mom or dad told you the sky is blue because it reflects the ocean, and the ocean is blue because it reflects the sky? Yeah, they probably just didn’t know the answer. Or you were asking too many questions. So in the bay, when you see any other color besides blue, you’re really seeing particles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Particles and other colors. There are living particles and there are non-living particles. The non-living particles are mostly clay particles that come from soils.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> This sediment gets into the water through erosion runoff after it rains, and via the multiple rivers that flow into the bay. Currents churn up the sediment, which can make the water look brown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> The living particles are microscopic algae. Phytoplankton. The phytoplankton have the same chlorophyl that land plants have that makes them green.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> It’s these phytoplankton that give the water a greenish hue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Now the question of has there been a long term trend of greenness in the bay? It’s it sounds like a simple question, but it’s not as simple and straightforward as you would think, because we have all these sources of variability.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> The bay isn’t a static thing. It changes seasonally. Day to day, hour to hour.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> And so if there’s a long term trend, all of that variability makes it hard to detect a long term pattern of change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Here’s where all the data comes in at the USGS. Jim was also part of a project that since 1968, has been collecting water samples in the bay to measure changes over time. These sampling cruises happen about once a month. I talked with Erika Nejat on one of them. She’s a biologist who works for the USGS. This day, she was using specialized instruments to collect the measurements of several different factors, including chlorophyl content.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Nejat:\u003c/strong> So? So the CTD is taking vertical profiles of the water column at different stations. Every station we stop at is getting a. Complete vertical profile of the app space and time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> The CTD that stands for conductivity, temperature and depth is a bundle of different sensors attached together. At the end of a cable at each of the sampling locations, Erica lowers this thing slowly to the bottom of the bed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Nejat: \u003c/strong>They added this nice camera so I can see what the CTD’s at surface. So I want to start right sitting at surface, and then I go to as close to bottom as I can get without rubbing it into the bottom. So I can see my depth here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> All the way down. It’s scanning, taking measurements and reporting them back. It comes back up with a sample of deep water so they can study the phytoplankton species later. There’s also a continuous surface water sampler running inside the lab on the boat, and a special instrument that is taking pictures of individual phytoplankton in real time. They’re collecting a ton of information so that when you look at the larger data set, patterns start to emerge. Here’s Jim again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> We have measured over the last two decades a trend of increasing phytoplankton. So two things are going on that would make the bay look greener over time. Decreased sediment input, less brown, increasing phytoplankton abundance more green. So yes, there is a trend of increasing greenness in the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>There you have it. It is greener. But we’re not done yet. Because, like Ricardo Montalban in The Wrath of Khan, I want to know why. Why? Why are there more phytoplankton now than before?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Now we need to talk about biological communities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>Phytoplankton are small, but they take up a lot of space. Little on the aggregate, but massive on the whole.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> If you could weigh all of the communities that live in the bay the phytoplankton, the bacteria, the clams, them, the mussels, the crabs, the fish, the phytoplankton would weigh the most. It’s the living component that has the largest living biomass in the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> They’re right at the base of the food web. A lot of them are eaten by clams and mussels, which are filter feeders. They pull in and blow out water through a tube like structure called a siphon, and in the process, they filter out the nutritious phytoplankton. They used to do this at a pretty astounding rate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> And we calculated this is over three decades ago, that if you if you know how many clams and mussels are in the bay, how large they are, you can calculate how fast they’re filtering water. The clams and mussels that live in the bay are pumping a volume of water that’s equal to the volume of water in the bay every one or two days during the summertime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> If you’ve ever gone swimming in the bay and gotten water in your mouth, just know that it has probably been filtered through a clam. So back before 1998, those clams and mussels were keeping the phytoplankton population under control. But then things started to shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>And in 1999, we started seeing changes in the seasonal pattern of the phytoplankton. We saw bloom in the autumn. We’d never seen anything like that before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>Our question asker, Justin, was living in New York in 1999, so he didn’t see this shift until it was well underway. The extra phytoplankton blooms were a mystery to Jim and the team, until they checked in with their colleagues who study the clams. They could hardly find any in the bay, but other species numbers were growing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> They started seeing record high numbers of crabs in the bay, flatfish in the bay like, you know, Seoul and record high numbers of shrimp.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Those animals are all coastal marine organisms who live their adult lives in the ocean. But they’re young. Spend the first year or two of life in the shelter of the bay, and they all eat clams.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So Amanda, to make sure I have this starting in 1999, we have more clam eaters, fewer clams, thus more photo plankton and greener water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>Yeah, this is called a trophic cascade. A change in one part of the food web sets off a cascading effect on the other organisms in it, and the clam eater numbers are still up, which is why the water is still that rich shade of artichoke.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Why the sudden influx of other animals?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong> We have learned over the last couple of decades that there are natural cycles of the climate system that fluctuate over periods of multiple decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>There are these huge wind oscillations that happen way out in the North Pacific Ocean. Around 1999, the direction of the winds shifted in a way that caused the ocean along our coast to churn up cold water from the deep. This is called coastal upwelling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>And the cold, deep water is rich in nutrients. So this phase of strong winds, strong upwelling is a period of high biological productivity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All right. So the winds blow. It shifts the ocean climate feeds the flatfish, crabs and shrimp. Their babies drift into the bay, eat the clams. The photo plankton populations grow and the water turns green.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>That’s how it works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And this has something to do with human caused climate change, I assume.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>Actually, no. Jim made it clear that this is not something that has been caused by human actions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>These aren’t responses to global climate change. This is part of the natural oscillation of the climate system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Does that mean the water will eventually go back to looking more blue?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>So this greening period that we’ve experienced since 1998, we might reverse that pattern if we see this next climate shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>The only way we’ll really know for sure is if we keep collecting data so we can observe long term changes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>It’s really important for us to keep making measurements, keep making observations, because the longer we do this, the more we’re surprised. And surprises are new discoveries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was reporter Amanda Font. She took the story back to listener Justin Hartung to see what he thought.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>I’m glad to know that it’s not the climate. I’m glad to know it’s not my failing eyesight or my bad memory. So. Mystery definitely solved. I can also tell my dad that I am not crazy. What she told me was when I told him about this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So thanks for asking the question, Justin. If you’re digging the podcast, you will definitely dig \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/bay-curious\">our email newsletter\u003c/a>. We send it out the first Wednesday of the month, and it has answers to more listener questions, and we have time to get into on the show. Plus, behind the scenes tidbits like how we used a theremin to make sounds for this episode. Okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Ok, try now. I’m so sweaty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/bay-curious\">Subscribe at Bay curious.org\u003c/a> and you can always find a link in our show notes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Hartung:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Beale: \u003c/strong>Produced by Christopher Beale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And me Olivia Allen Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Lancour:\u003c/strong> Additional support from Paul Lancour.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jen Chien: \u003c/strong>Jen Chien.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie Sprenger:\u003c/strong> Katie Sprenger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cesar Saldaña:\u003c/strong> Cesar Saldaña.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Maha Sanad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holly Kernan:\u003c/strong> Holly Kernan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And the whole KQED family. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Ever Seen A Koi Fish on the Sidewalk? Artist Explains Hidden Meaning",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you take a walk around San Francisco, it won’t take long before you see a koi fish. Not a real one, of course, although the bright orange-and-white graffiti art has the fluidity of a real fish hovering in the water. The stenciled koi on our city streets range in size from a foot long to the length of a whale. They float along city sidewalks and up walls as if this urban landscape were their native pond.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They are all over the Bay Area, concentrated in San Francisco,” says \u003ca href=\"https://jeremynovystencils.com/\">Jeremy Novy\u003c/a>, the artist behind the bright carp fish.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Novy says he’s painted more than 8,000 koi in the Bay Area since he started stenciling them in 2008. Koi imagery inspired him when he traveled to China as a college student in 2006. There, the fish symbolizes prosperity, good fortune and perseverance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While in China, Novy studied the Chinese Cultural Revolution (1966–76), when the communist government tried to purge the culture of the traditional elements. Novy says that to preserve their heritage, people turned to the symbolism in art. They would hide Chinese lucky numbers in koi paintings. He decided to bring the concept back to the United States and marry it with contemporary material — the concrete of the streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I stencil koi to create a kind of nature, zen moment in our urban landscape, instead of real water and real fish,” Novy says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When he first started painting koi, he lived in his home state of Wisconsin. After moving to San Francisco, the first koi he painted was in the Mission District, in front of the Women’s Building on 18th Street. He says the power of the mural on the community center inspired him. Next, he took his project to the hidden alleyways of the Tenderloin and, later, began painting koi in front of the businesses he frequented.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11987356\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11987356\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Koi-1.jpg\" alt=\"Three koi fish swirl in a circle along the corner of a blue residential building.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Koi-1.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Koi-1-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Koi-1-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Koi-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Koi-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">During the pandemic, Novy took commissions from homeowners to paint koi on or near their homes. \u003ccite>(Tamuna Chkareuli /KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Slowly, koi have become somewhat commonplace on the streets of the Bay Area. During the pandemic, Novy took commissions from San Francisco homeowners as a way to cheer people up during the quarantine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We weren’t able to go to museums and galleries, but we were able to go to the grocery store and do these small activities,” Novy says. “So having art in different neighborhoods and small areas was very important.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His biggest creations, two 75-foot koi, are now swimming on the square between the Asian Art Museum and the San Francisco Library in Fulton Plaza. It took him two months to get permission, but in the end, Novy and his team of volunteers completed the work. It was funded through \u003ca href=\"https://illuminate.org/\">Illuminate\u003c/a>, a donor-funded effort to revitalize San Francisco using large-scale art.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11987357\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 793px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11987357\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/DJI_20240.jpg\" alt=\"An aerial image of a pedestrian plaza, where two large koi fish "swim" around a statue. It's night time and the city lights are on display in surrounding buildings. A block away, San Francisco City Hall is illuminated with red white and blue. \" width=\"793\" height=\"1024\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/DJI_20240.jpg 793w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/DJI_20240-160x207.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 793px) 100vw, 793px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">It took Novy and his team three days to paint the whale-sized koi fish in Fulton Plaza. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Jeremy Novy)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Novy brings Chinese feng shui and numerology ideas to his paintings. There is a hidden meaning within each work, based on the number of koi in the group. For instance, a koi that appears by itself symbolizes overcoming obstacles. According to legend, one stubborn koi spent ninety years trying to jump a waterfall, and when it did, it was gifted a new life as a water dragon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Two koi appearing together symbolize double happiness, and three stand for stages of life, from birth to death. Novy usually skips the number four because it’s an unlucky number and a symbol of death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The number that Novy identifies with most is five, for the transformation that it symbolizes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If it wasn’t for street art, I think that I would be a little lost in life,” he says. “It’s been a place for me to put my depression, my anxiety and my stress, and also to communicate with people in a beautiful way.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The color of the koi has meaning in Chinese mythology, too. Black koi absorb negativity, according to Novy. Yellow fish are about money and prosperity. The orange and white fish, which are the most numerous here in San Francisco, are a nod to the Giants and our state flower, the California poppy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rainbow-coloured koi are Novy’s latest creations, which he has stenciled around New Orleans in recent months during an artist-in-residence. He hopes to bring them home to the Bay soon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It feels very nice that people have recognized what I’m doing as being an important part of the art community and art history,” Novy says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Novy believes art is therapeutic not just for people who make it, but to the viewer. So, he says it’s important to make it accessible to everyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He hopes the fish make people happy and inspires them to “overcome anything that they may be dealing with.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wander around the Bay Area long enough, and you are certain to stumble upon one of our most ubiquitous pieces of street art. Schools of playful, graphic koi fish swimming through our urban landscape.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Layf Kutschera: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maybe the first one I saw was near my house. I’ve lived in two places in San Francisco, and both of them have a koi-like right outside the door. My name is Layf Kutschera. And I am an interior designer and watercolor artist here in San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Soon after Layf noticed the koi for the first time, he started seeing them everywhere — usually on sidewalks but sometimes on buildings. They’re anywhere for a few inches to a few feet long. And their colors? High contrast…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Layf Kutschera:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Vibrant orange, white, black\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Layf wrote into Bay Curious, wanting to know the backstory behind these fish, which seem to be spawning all over the place. So today on the show, we’ll meet the person behind them, learn what inspired the koi and decode the hidden message within each design. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll be right back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For our question asker Layf Kutschera, the koi stencils often spotted in our region have become a delight\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Layf Kutschera:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s just great to see color in our gray cityscape. Once you see one, you kind of keep an eye out for other ones, and then they become a little treat!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They’re also a treat for Tamuna Chkareuli, a journalism fellow from the Republic of Georgia. She’s been embedded with the Bay Curious team for the last three weeks. She’ll take the story from here…\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound from a street in San Francisco\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I couldn’t relate more to our question-asker. It was my first week in San Francisco when I saw 2-foot-long bright orange koi fish stenciled on my street. Then, I saw three more on my morning run. Suddenly, the city was full of hidden ponds! I started to see them everywhere. To me, they felt like a warm welcome in a new place. And these koi swam a really long way to be here — all the way from China.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I got to travel around a lot of China, see a lot of really interesting things that definitely had an influence and an impact on my life. My name is Jeremy Novy. I’m a stencil street artist. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jeremy has been working in the Bay Area for sixteen years, but the inspiration behind his art goes back decades to the Cultural Revolution in China, which started in 1966.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">China was told to destroy the old to make way for the new, which meant getting rid of, like, feng shui ideas. And so they became, kind of kind of scared that their history would be lost forever. So they devised a plan that they were going to hide Chinese lucky numbers in koi paintings. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jeremy releases his koi to the ponds of concrete in groups. He’ll paint anywhere from one koi fish to as many as nine. And just like in China, there’s a hidden meaning behind the number of koi Jeremy paints.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound of flowing water begins.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One symbolizes perseverance, overcoming obstacles and strength. There’s a story of a koi that spent 90 years trying to jump up a waterfall, and it finally jumped up the waterfall, and the gods appeased it by turning it into the Asian water dragon. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sparkley sound effect. Water sound fades. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Two symbolizes double happiness or good things come in pairs. And who doesn’t want to be happy? Not once, but over and over again. Three represents the three stages of life: birth, marriage and death. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re unlikely to see four koi fish painted together. Four is a forbidden number in Chinese, a symbol of death, so he usually skips it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Five symbolizes transformation, the story of an emperor coming from peasantry and walking through five gates before becoming emperor. The last one being that of the Forbidden City. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And for that reason, a group of five koi is special for Jeremy. It is the transformation he identifies with.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If it wasn’t for street art, I think that I would be a little bit lost in life. It’s been a place for me to put my depression, my anxiety and my stress. And it’s been a way for me to communicate with people in a very beautiful way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Six koi is about entrepreneurship and business. Seven — about the community. If you ever see eight koi swirling around on the sidewalk, it’s your lucky day.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music fades\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And nine represents the universe and everything in it, including all of the other eight lucky numbers.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The colors Jeremy uses have meaning too. Black absorbs all the negativity, so if you had a bad day and see a black koi — go stand on it! Golden koi are the money fish that bring prosperity into your life. And orange is a nod to the state flower, the California poppy, and the San Francisco Giants. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jeremy started painting koi in 2008, and he has lost count of how many are out there, but he says there must be at least 8,000 of them all over the Bay Area. He still remembers the first one he made. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was exactly across the street from the Women’s Center on 18th Street. I stenciled them there because I really thought that the mural at the Women’s Center was a very beautiful thing. I was very fascinated with some of the symbolism and the empowerment of women that is found in that mural. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">From hidden alleyways, the koi swam to more open waters. This year, Jeremy and a team of volunteers painted two whale-sized koi in Fulton Plaza, right near City Hall. It was a lot of work. They made a grid of 5-foot squares, and Jeremy painted koi in those sections, using primer, exterior paint and a sealant. Those koi also carry tiny reflective glass beads in them, like what’s used in lane markings on the highway, so the fish can glow when the light hits them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s kind of amazing. It somehow feels that, like, what I’m doing is right. And I’ve, before, had to deal with concern about the police arresting me for doing my art without permission. So it feels very nice that people have recognized what I’m doing as being an important part of the art community and art history.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once a secretive project, Jeremy’s koi are now a common sight in public spaces. He says that his art is not there to take over the area or make a statement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Art is a therapeutic experience for those who make it, but it’s also a hugely therapeutic experience for people that see it. And not everybody has money and galleries to experience art. Whenever I put them out there, it’s just about trying to bring peace to people’s daily life and a little bit of comfort.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just like the real koi in a pond would do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music ends, signaling the end of the story.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What I love about this story, Tamuna, is that I’ve been seeing these koi all over the Bay Area for years and never knew the meaning behind them. And now I’m going to see them in a whole new light. I cannot wait until the next time I stumble upon them on the street. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Jeremy did commissions during the pandemic when people could just call him and commission to have koi painted in front of their house. So now, when I see koi in front of somebody’s porch, I’m wondering why they picked this number.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ooo! Now, if you were to get a commissioned piece, which number would you pick? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would go with one. About perseverance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mmm! Why?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think there’s a water dragon inside me.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> (laughing) I love that. Tamuna Chkareuli, thank you so much for this story and for part of the Bay Curious team these past three weeks!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I had a blast. Thanks for having me! \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Big thanks to Leif Kutschera for asking this week’s question. If you’ve got a question you’d like to hear answered on Bay Curious, head to BayCurious.org and ask! While you’re there, sign up for our monthly newsletter, where we often answer even more listener questions than we can get to on the podcast. Again, it’s all at BayCurious.org.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This week, we’d like to offer a special shout-out to our listener, Cassie. Hope you have a magical birthday! From your friend, Ashley.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Bay Curious team is taking a breather next week for Memorial Day, so we will not be releasing an episode. But I hope you will listen to our back catalog. There are so many hidden gems in there. So go check it out. We’ll be back the first week of June. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. This show was edited by me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Produced by me, Pauline Bartolone…\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Everyone saying their own names: …\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tamuna Chkareuli, Katrina Schwartz and Christopher Beale. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional support from Paul Lancour….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Everyone saying their own names: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lusen Mendel, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Xorje Olivares, Holly Kernan …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And the whole KQED family. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. And if I can, I will grant you eight koi today. It’s your lucky day!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you take a walk around San Francisco, it won’t take long before you see a koi fish. Not a real one, of course, although the bright orange-and-white graffiti art has the fluidity of a real fish hovering in the water. The stenciled koi on our city streets range in size from a foot long to the length of a whale. They float along city sidewalks and up walls as if this urban landscape were their native pond.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They are all over the Bay Area, concentrated in San Francisco,” says \u003ca href=\"https://jeremynovystencils.com/\">Jeremy Novy\u003c/a>, the artist behind the bright carp fish.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Novy says he’s painted more than 8,000 koi in the Bay Area since he started stenciling them in 2008. Koi imagery inspired him when he traveled to China as a college student in 2006. There, the fish symbolizes prosperity, good fortune and perseverance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While in China, Novy studied the Chinese Cultural Revolution (1966–76), when the communist government tried to purge the culture of the traditional elements. Novy says that to preserve their heritage, people turned to the symbolism in art. They would hide Chinese lucky numbers in koi paintings. He decided to bring the concept back to the United States and marry it with contemporary material — the concrete of the streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I stencil koi to create a kind of nature, zen moment in our urban landscape, instead of real water and real fish,” Novy says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When he first started painting koi, he lived in his home state of Wisconsin. After moving to San Francisco, the first koi he painted was in the Mission District, in front of the Women’s Building on 18th Street. He says the power of the mural on the community center inspired him. Next, he took his project to the hidden alleyways of the Tenderloin and, later, began painting koi in front of the businesses he frequented.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11987356\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11987356\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Koi-1.jpg\" alt=\"Three koi fish swirl in a circle along the corner of a blue residential building.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Koi-1.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Koi-1-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Koi-1-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Koi-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Koi-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">During the pandemic, Novy took commissions from homeowners to paint koi on or near their homes. \u003ccite>(Tamuna Chkareuli /KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Slowly, koi have become somewhat commonplace on the streets of the Bay Area. During the pandemic, Novy took commissions from San Francisco homeowners as a way to cheer people up during the quarantine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We weren’t able to go to museums and galleries, but we were able to go to the grocery store and do these small activities,” Novy says. “So having art in different neighborhoods and small areas was very important.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His biggest creations, two 75-foot koi, are now swimming on the square between the Asian Art Museum and the San Francisco Library in Fulton Plaza. It took him two months to get permission, but in the end, Novy and his team of volunteers completed the work. It was funded through \u003ca href=\"https://illuminate.org/\">Illuminate\u003c/a>, a donor-funded effort to revitalize San Francisco using large-scale art.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11987357\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 793px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11987357\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/DJI_20240.jpg\" alt=\"An aerial image of a pedestrian plaza, where two large koi fish "swim" around a statue. It's night time and the city lights are on display in surrounding buildings. A block away, San Francisco City Hall is illuminated with red white and blue. \" width=\"793\" height=\"1024\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/DJI_20240.jpg 793w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/DJI_20240-160x207.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 793px) 100vw, 793px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">It took Novy and his team three days to paint the whale-sized koi fish in Fulton Plaza. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Jeremy Novy)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Novy brings Chinese feng shui and numerology ideas to his paintings. There is a hidden meaning within each work, based on the number of koi in the group. For instance, a koi that appears by itself symbolizes overcoming obstacles. According to legend, one stubborn koi spent ninety years trying to jump a waterfall, and when it did, it was gifted a new life as a water dragon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Two koi appearing together symbolize double happiness, and three stand for stages of life, from birth to death. Novy usually skips the number four because it’s an unlucky number and a symbol of death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The number that Novy identifies with most is five, for the transformation that it symbolizes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If it wasn’t for street art, I think that I would be a little lost in life,” he says. “It’s been a place for me to put my depression, my anxiety and my stress, and also to communicate with people in a beautiful way.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The color of the koi has meaning in Chinese mythology, too. Black koi absorb negativity, according to Novy. Yellow fish are about money and prosperity. The orange and white fish, which are the most numerous here in San Francisco, are a nod to the Giants and our state flower, the California poppy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rainbow-coloured koi are Novy’s latest creations, which he has stenciled around New Orleans in recent months during an artist-in-residence. He hopes to bring them home to the Bay soon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It feels very nice that people have recognized what I’m doing as being an important part of the art community and art history,” Novy says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Novy believes art is therapeutic not just for people who make it, but to the viewer. So, he says it’s important to make it accessible to everyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He hopes the fish make people happy and inspires them to “overcome anything that they may be dealing with.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wander around the Bay Area long enough, and you are certain to stumble upon one of our most ubiquitous pieces of street art. Schools of playful, graphic koi fish swimming through our urban landscape.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Layf Kutschera: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maybe the first one I saw was near my house. I’ve lived in two places in San Francisco, and both of them have a koi-like right outside the door. My name is Layf Kutschera. And I am an interior designer and watercolor artist here in San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Soon after Layf noticed the koi for the first time, he started seeing them everywhere — usually on sidewalks but sometimes on buildings. They’re anywhere for a few inches to a few feet long. And their colors? High contrast…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Layf Kutschera:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Vibrant orange, white, black\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Layf wrote into Bay Curious, wanting to know the backstory behind these fish, which seem to be spawning all over the place. So today on the show, we’ll meet the person behind them, learn what inspired the koi and decode the hidden message within each design. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll be right back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For our question asker Layf Kutschera, the koi stencils often spotted in our region have become a delight\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Layf Kutschera:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s just great to see color in our gray cityscape. Once you see one, you kind of keep an eye out for other ones, and then they become a little treat!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They’re also a treat for Tamuna Chkareuli, a journalism fellow from the Republic of Georgia. She’s been embedded with the Bay Curious team for the last three weeks. She’ll take the story from here…\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound from a street in San Francisco\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I couldn’t relate more to our question-asker. It was my first week in San Francisco when I saw 2-foot-long bright orange koi fish stenciled on my street. Then, I saw three more on my morning run. Suddenly, the city was full of hidden ponds! I started to see them everywhere. To me, they felt like a warm welcome in a new place. And these koi swam a really long way to be here — all the way from China.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I got to travel around a lot of China, see a lot of really interesting things that definitely had an influence and an impact on my life. My name is Jeremy Novy. I’m a stencil street artist. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jeremy has been working in the Bay Area for sixteen years, but the inspiration behind his art goes back decades to the Cultural Revolution in China, which started in 1966.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">China was told to destroy the old to make way for the new, which meant getting rid of, like, feng shui ideas. And so they became, kind of kind of scared that their history would be lost forever. So they devised a plan that they were going to hide Chinese lucky numbers in koi paintings. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jeremy releases his koi to the ponds of concrete in groups. He’ll paint anywhere from one koi fish to as many as nine. And just like in China, there’s a hidden meaning behind the number of koi Jeremy paints.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound of flowing water begins.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One symbolizes perseverance, overcoming obstacles and strength. There’s a story of a koi that spent 90 years trying to jump up a waterfall, and it finally jumped up the waterfall, and the gods appeased it by turning it into the Asian water dragon. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sparkley sound effect. Water sound fades. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Two symbolizes double happiness or good things come in pairs. And who doesn’t want to be happy? Not once, but over and over again. Three represents the three stages of life: birth, marriage and death. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re unlikely to see four koi fish painted together. Four is a forbidden number in Chinese, a symbol of death, so he usually skips it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Five symbolizes transformation, the story of an emperor coming from peasantry and walking through five gates before becoming emperor. The last one being that of the Forbidden City. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And for that reason, a group of five koi is special for Jeremy. It is the transformation he identifies with.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If it wasn’t for street art, I think that I would be a little bit lost in life. It’s been a place for me to put my depression, my anxiety and my stress. And it’s been a way for me to communicate with people in a very beautiful way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Six koi is about entrepreneurship and business. Seven — about the community. If you ever see eight koi swirling around on the sidewalk, it’s your lucky day.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music fades\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And nine represents the universe and everything in it, including all of the other eight lucky numbers.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The colors Jeremy uses have meaning too. Black absorbs all the negativity, so if you had a bad day and see a black koi — go stand on it! Golden koi are the money fish that bring prosperity into your life. And orange is a nod to the state flower, the California poppy, and the San Francisco Giants. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jeremy started painting koi in 2008, and he has lost count of how many are out there, but he says there must be at least 8,000 of them all over the Bay Area. He still remembers the first one he made. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was exactly across the street from the Women’s Center on 18th Street. I stenciled them there because I really thought that the mural at the Women’s Center was a very beautiful thing. I was very fascinated with some of the symbolism and the empowerment of women that is found in that mural. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">From hidden alleyways, the koi swam to more open waters. This year, Jeremy and a team of volunteers painted two whale-sized koi in Fulton Plaza, right near City Hall. It was a lot of work. They made a grid of 5-foot squares, and Jeremy painted koi in those sections, using primer, exterior paint and a sealant. Those koi also carry tiny reflective glass beads in them, like what’s used in lane markings on the highway, so the fish can glow when the light hits them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s kind of amazing. It somehow feels that, like, what I’m doing is right. And I’ve, before, had to deal with concern about the police arresting me for doing my art without permission. So it feels very nice that people have recognized what I’m doing as being an important part of the art community and art history.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once a secretive project, Jeremy’s koi are now a common sight in public spaces. He says that his art is not there to take over the area or make a statement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Art is a therapeutic experience for those who make it, but it’s also a hugely therapeutic experience for people that see it. And not everybody has money and galleries to experience art. Whenever I put them out there, it’s just about trying to bring peace to people’s daily life and a little bit of comfort.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just like the real koi in a pond would do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music ends, signaling the end of the story.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What I love about this story, Tamuna, is that I’ve been seeing these koi all over the Bay Area for years and never knew the meaning behind them. And now I’m going to see them in a whole new light. I cannot wait until the next time I stumble upon them on the street. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Jeremy did commissions during the pandemic when people could just call him and commission to have koi painted in front of their house. So now, when I see koi in front of somebody’s porch, I’m wondering why they picked this number.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ooo! Now, if you were to get a commissioned piece, which number would you pick? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would go with one. About perseverance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mmm! Why?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think there’s a water dragon inside me.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> (laughing) I love that. Tamuna Chkareuli, thank you so much for this story and for part of the Bay Curious team these past three weeks!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I had a blast. Thanks for having me! \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Big thanks to Leif Kutschera for asking this week’s question. If you’ve got a question you’d like to hear answered on Bay Curious, head to BayCurious.org and ask! While you’re there, sign up for our monthly newsletter, where we often answer even more listener questions than we can get to on the podcast. Again, it’s all at BayCurious.org.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This week, we’d like to offer a special shout-out to our listener, Cassie. Hope you have a magical birthday! From your friend, Ashley.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Bay Curious team is taking a breather next week for Memorial Day, so we will not be releasing an episode. But I hope you will listen to our back catalog. There are so many hidden gems in there. So go check it out. We’ll be back the first week of June. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. This show was edited by me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Produced by me, Pauline Bartolone…\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Everyone saying their own names: …\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tamuna Chkareuli, Katrina Schwartz and Christopher Beale. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional support from Paul Lancour….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Everyone saying their own names: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lusen Mendel, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Xorje Olivares, Holly Kernan …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And the whole KQED family. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. And if I can, I will grant you eight koi today. It’s your lucky day!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back in the early 1960s, when BART was just a sketch on a map, planners with the young transit agency had a task in front of them. BART had to acquire around 2,200 parcels of land in order to build the transportation system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Exactly how the agency went about getting that land was something that always puzzled Janine Dictor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For her, the question was also personal. Growing up, her family would tell stories about an amazing house her great-grandparents used to own in North Oakland, at 59th, and what is now Martin Luther King Jr. Way (it was called Grove Street back then). But the stories always ended with how they had to sell their home to BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]“There was always a sad tone to the story as if they didn’t have control over it,” Dictor said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dictor’s great-grandparents, Vito and Elizabeth Campilongo, loved that house. They were both immigrants from Italy, and they kept the house full of family, friends and good food. Vito tended a bountiful garden in the backyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My grandmother loved to cook in the basement,” said Johanne Dictor, Janine’s mother. “She had this great kitchen downstairs where she made her ravioli; she made her sausages with her women friends.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was a happy time, but it didn’t last. By the time Johanne was a teenager in the early ‘60s, one topic started to dominate their family dinners.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I remember we’d be sitting at the table and they’d say, ‘They’re going to take my house, they say we have to sell it. And we have to leave everything here.’ And you know, they just were devastated,” said Johanne about her grandparents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ultimately, the Campilongos sold their house to BART and moved to San Leandro. Her grandfather planted a new garden, but he felt it was never as big or as beautiful as the one in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He’d sit on the porch in San Leandro looking so sad,” remembers Johanne.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All this history left Janine wondering how exactly the sale of her great-grandparents’ house went down. So she asked KQED’s Bay Curious to look into how much property BART acquired at the time of its inception and whether any homeowners challenged the agency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There must be a pretty robust story behind all of this, and it’s just odd that we never have known quite what it is,” Janine said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986429\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1384px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2024/05/16/when-bart-was-built-people-and-houses-had-to-go/vito_elizabeth_family/\" rel=\"attachment wp-att-11986429\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11986429\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Vito_Elizabeth_family.png\" alt=\"An old black-and-white photo of a family in their living room\" width=\"1384\" height=\"1020\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Vito_Elizabeth_family.png 1384w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Vito_Elizabeth_family-800x590.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Vito_Elizabeth_family-1020x752.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Vito_Elizabeth_family-160x118.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1384px) 100vw, 1384px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Vito and Elizabeth Campilongo (center) left their North Oakland home in the 1960s to make room for a BART line. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the Campilongo family)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>And so BART begins\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Like much of the country in the early 1950s, the Bay Area was in a post-war building boom. New houses were going up all over the region, in places like Concord and Fremont. City planners had to figure out how folks would get around and travel between all these developments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>State lawmakers began \u003ca href=\"https://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=San_Francisco_Bay_Area_Rapid_Transit_Commission%E2%80%94The_Beginnings\">mapping out\u003c/a> a regional transportation system to connect the suburbs to the economic hubs of Oakland and San Francisco. In 1957, they passed a bill creating the Bay Area Rapid Transit District.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But BART needed land, including in residential areas where property was already owned and inhabited by people. As an entity charged with building public infrastructure, BART was given the power of eminent domain, a legal tool that helped it acquire the needed property.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Radhika Rao, a professor at UC San Francisco College of the Law, eminent domain allows the government to take people’s property “even if they don’t consent,” as long as it pays them fair market value for it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Eminent domain is an important tool for governments, said Rao, because infrastructure projects like hospitals, public schools, highways, parks and train tracks might never be built without it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Because you could have one private property owner who says, ‘My house stands in the way, you can’t build a highway,’ and then we have no highway. So our infrastructure depends upon government having this power,” Rao said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, Rao says, historically, the use of eminent domain in California has disproportionately affected low-income people and communities of color.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[pullquote size=\"medium\" align=\"right\" citation=\"Radhika Rao, UC San Francisco College of Law\"]‘That just makes economic sense, right? Why would government situate your infrastructure in a place where you have to pay more?’[/pullquote]One reason, she said, is that government agencies often use eminent domain in areas with lower property values since it costs them less to acquire that property.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That just makes economic sense, right? Why would government situate your infrastructure in a place where you have to pay more?” Rao said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another reason for the disproportionate impact, suggests Rao, is that government officials choose to develop areas where residents are less likely to organize against them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Who has the money to hire a lawyer and go to court saying, ‘the compensation that you’re offering me is not fair market value?’ Rao said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>West Oakland residents displaced\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>One of the places in the Bay Area hit hardest by eminent domain projects — including, but not limited to, BART construction — was West Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maxine Willis Ussery was born in Shreveport, Louisiana in 1939, but her family moved to West Oakland when she was just a few years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I was a girl, Seventh Street and all of West Oakland was predominantly Black, owned by Black people. Beautiful old Victorians were there,” Willis Ussery said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her family, like many Black families at the time, had come from the South in search of work and a better life. Her mother and father made the journey from Louisiana and settled in West Oakland. They found jobs at the nearby Naval shipyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They had no problems understanding that they had to develop their own businesses, their own services because that’s how they lived in the South,” Willis Ussery said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She says the West Oakland community had everything they needed: drug stores, groceries, restaurants, churches, doctors, and lawyers. But starting in the 1950s, successive government infrastructure projects ripped apart the fabric of this community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>First, government agencies demolished homes and businesses for the Nimitz Freeway (Interstate 880) in the 1950s. Then, in the following decades, they cleared more buildings to make way for the Oakland Main Post Office and the Acorn housing projects. And then, \u003ca href=\"https://diva.sfsu.edu/collections/sfbatv/bundles/232778\">there was BART\u003c/a>. The Oakland Planning Department estimates that between 5,100 and 9,700 housing units were lost in West Oakland in the 1960s alone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was like a dispersement of a whole community, not just taking the buildings, it was taking people who had lived there. Teachers, athletes, all of them were displaced,” Willis Ussery said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The effect on the community was disastrous, she said, especially for the older folks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They were up in age, and they were moved into areas where they could afford to go with the money they were given for BART, which was not a lot,” Willis Ussery said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A KQED analysis of the 1960 census reveals that the West Oakland census tracts hardest hit by eminent domain were where people of color lived — in some areas, as many as 95% of the residents were Black. Annual incomes in the development zones were also far lower than the city average. The neighborhood in North Oakland where the Campilongos lived had a higher median income but was also predominantly Black.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986231\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/240514-eminentdomain-25-bl-kqed/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11986231\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A BART train above two streets intersecting\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A BART train runs along the tracks at 59th Street and Martin Luther King Jr Way in Oakland on May 14, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Berkeley residents resist BART plans\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Some East Bay residents, such as Mable Howard of Berkeley, successfully altered BART’s path.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Howard argued that BART’s plan to construct raised tracks through part of the city would further divide it along racial lines. Her legal challenge was highlighted in the documentary “\u003ca href=\"https://video.kqed.org/video/welcome-to-the-neighborhood-truly-ca-zag6fb/\">Welcome to the Neighborhood\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As the documentary explains, in 1966, Berkeley voters approved a tax that would pay to put BART completely underground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But BART proposed a design for the Ashby station that was slightly above ground. Howard felt that the design would further segregate the city. She teamed up with the late East Bay politician Ron Dellums, then a city council member, to successfully sue the agency to underground all their Berkeley infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We won the case. How do we know we won the case? Go to Berkeley. You’ll see the whole thing’s underground,” said attorney Matthew Weinberg in the film.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>BART spokesperson: ‘Lessons learned’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>These days, it is hard to imagine a Bay Area without BART. People from all over the Bay Area make millions of trips on it every month. Even the aerial tracks that tower over Martin Luther King Jr. Way, where the Campilongo house used to stand, seem to blend into the background of freeways and buildings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BART’s Chief Communications Officer Alicia Trost says it’s still important for the agency to acknowledge the past harms that the agency committed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There was a lot of generational wealth that was deeply impacted, if not destroyed, because of the building of the BART system,” Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BART now has an Office of Civil Rights and other equity initiatives that Trost says are critical to rebuilding trust with the community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[pullquote size=\"medium\" align=\"right\" citation=\"Alicia Trost, BART\"]‘There was a lot of generational wealth that was deeply impacted if not destroyed because of the building of the BART system.’[/pullquote]“Especially when we’re building on our land, we want to make sure there’s a carve-out specifically for affordable housing and that we are in a daily conversation with the community to make sure what we’re building is something that they want,” Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As the agency imagines future development, like building a possible second transbay tube between San Francisco and Oakland, she says they’re also developing plans to prevent the displacement of residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Trost said the uprooting of residents to create BART in the 1960s provided “lessons learned,” and mistakes that shouldn’t be repeated were made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>State leaders are also looking at the long-term impact that eminent domain property transfers have had on families and communities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California State Senator Steven Bradford, a member of California’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/reparations\">Reparations Task Force\u003c/a>, introduced a bill in February that would compensate former property owners if their parcel was taken through eminent domain, but they didn’t receive just compensation due to racism or discrimination by the government.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The price the Campilongos paid\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986413\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2024/05/16/when-bart-was-built-people-and-houses-had-to-go/campilongo_contract_page_01/\" rel=\"attachment wp-att-11986413\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11986413\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-800x1032.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"1032\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-800x1032.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-1020x1316.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-160x206.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-1190x1536.jpg 1190w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-1587x2048.jpg 1587w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01.jpg 1701w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The contract the Campilongos signed with BART.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A public records request submitted by KQED reveals that the Bay Area Rapid Transit District paid Vito and Elizabeth Campilongo $25,000 for their property in North Oakland on Sept. 2, 1965. Adjusted for inflation, that’s about $245,000 today. These days, homes go for around $1 million in that neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Janine and Johanne Dictor were excited to see the contract their relatives signed with BART, the physical evidence of their family history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Doesn’t that look like Nana’s handwriting?” Janine asked her mom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But after the initial excitement, the mood turned somber.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s about a lot more than what they were compensated,” Janine said. “It’s about the fact that they were forced into this, that they lost a lifestyle, that they lost a community,”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The premise of using eminent domain is that individual sacrifices are warranted to build public infrastructure. However, for families like the Dictors, the construction of BART was a painful turn in their history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“After we lost that house, we lost the sense of our family in a way. It was kind of driven apart,” her mom, Johanne, added. “That house really brought us together.”\u003cbr>\n\u003cem>\u003cbr>\nSpecial thanks to Pam Uzzell for providing parts of her documentary “Welcome to the Neighborhood” and to KQED’s Dan Brekke for reporting support and data analysis. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of BART\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Johanne Dictor points at the grassy median dividing the six lanes of Martin Luther King Junior Way in North Oakland. An elevated BART track towers overhead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> I guess my grandmother’s house was right here on the, the tracks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Johanne’s grandparents, Vito and Elizabeth Campilongo were immigrants from Italy. They loved their home on what was then 59th and Grove street in Oakland … Grove is Martin Luther King Jr Way these days. They kept the house full of family, friends and, as is the Italian way … good food.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> So she, she had this great kitchen downstairs where she made her ravioli. She made her sausages with her women friends. They’d come over, and all day, they’d make sausages down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And Vito grew food in the backyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Janine Dictor: Ah, garden, this master gardener with this beautiful, extensive garden that he used to cook these delicious Italian meals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> This was a happy time. But it didn’t last. By the time Johanne was a teenager in the early ’60s, one topic started to dominate their family dinners.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> I remember, you know, be sitting at the table and they’d say, you know, they’re, they’re gonna take my house, they say we have to sell it. And we have to leave everything here, and you know, they just were devastated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Ultimately, the Campilongos sold their house to BART and moved to San Leandro. Her grandfather planted a new garden, but it was never as big or as beautiful as the one in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> He’d sit on the porch like in San Leandro looking so sad, you know, (cries)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Johanne’s daughter, Janine, grew up with this family story. But she has always thought it was odd that they didn’t know more about how it all went down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Dictor:\u003c/strong> How many properties were acquired? Did anybody challenge, you know, Bart’s ability to acquire their property? What was the outcome of that? Um, yeah, just there seems like there must, there must be a pretty robust story behind all of this. And it’s just odd that we never have known what, quite what it is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen Price, and today on Bay Curious the story of how families like the Campilongos were uprooted to make way for BART. Theirs is a common story — people have been displaced for large infrastructure projects time and time again all across the United States. And it’s still happening today. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Area Rapid Transit…better known as BART…is a fixture of life in the Bay Area today. But many families and businesses were displaced to build it. KQED reporter Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman is going to help us understand how it all went down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> In the early ’50s, the Bay Area, like much of the country, was in a post-war building boom. New houses were going up all over the region in places like Concord and Fremont. And a big question was how folks would get around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of BART promo reel\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> State lawmakers began planning for a regional transportation system to connect the suburbs to the economic hubs of Oakland and San Francisco. There was a lot of excitement … which you can hear in this promotional video for BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>BART promo reel:\u003c/strong>…To do this by weaving into the fabric of the Bay Area an entirely new and vastly better way of getting around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> In 1962, voters in Alameda, Contra Costa, and San Francisco counties approved a nearly 800 million dollar bond to build the new tracks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>BART promo reel:\u003c/strong>… Locations of lines and stations was the first step in the long planning process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: But BART needed land, including in residential areas where property was already owned and inhabited by people. The Campilongos neighborhood in North Oakland was one of those areas; another was West Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maxine Ussery\u003c/strong>: When I was a girl, there were… So 7th Street and all of West Oakland was predominantly black, owned by black people. Beautiful old Victorians were there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: Maxine Ussery was born in Oakland in 1939. Her family, like many Black families at the time, had come from the South in search of work and a better life. Maxine’s mother and father made the journey from Louisiana and settled in West Oakland. They found jobs at the nearby Naval Shipyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maxine Ussery\u003c/strong>: They had no problems understanding that they had to, in fact, develop their own businesses, their own services, because that’s how they lived in the South.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: She says the West Oakland community had everything they needed…drug stores, groceries, restaurants, churches, doctors and lawyers. But starting in the 1950s, successive government infrastructure projects ripped apart the fabric of this community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maxine Ussery\u003c/strong>: They forced people to move.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: Government agencies demolished homes and businesses for the Nimitz Freeway in the ’50s. Then, in the following decades, they cleared more buildings to make way for Oakland’s Main Post Office and the Acorn housing projects. And then, there was BART. The Oakland Planning Department estimates that upwards of 5,000 units of housing were destroyed in West Oakland in the 1960s alone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maxine Ussery\u003c/strong>: It was like a disbursement of a, of a whole group of a whole community, not just, uh, taking the buildings, it was taking people and who had lived there and who, uh, uh, teachers, um, uh, uh, educate, you know, people who were athletes, all of them were displaced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: Maxine says the effect on the community was disastrous, especially for the older folks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maxine Ussery\u003c/strong>: They were up in age, and they were moved into areas where they, that where they could afford to go with the money they were given for BART, which was not a lot. It wasn’t enough money for them to live on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: Many of the infrastructure projects in West Oakland that Maxine talks about were only possible because of a legal tool known as eminent domain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radhika Rao\u003c/strong>: So that’s the part of the Constitution that gives government the power to come along and take people’s private property even if they don’t consent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: Radhika Rao is a professor of Law at UC San Francisco College of the Law. Eminent domain allows public agencies to buy private property at “fair market value” in order to build infrastructure that is in the public interest. Think hospitals, Public Schools, Highways, Parks, and train tracks. Radhika says without it, infrastructure projects like these might never get built.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radhika Rao\u003c/strong>: Because you could have one private property owner who says, my house stands in the way; you can’t build a highway. And then we have no highway. So, our infrastructure depends upon government having this power. It’s, it’s super important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: But Rhadika says government agencies often target areas with lower property values because they cost less.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radhika Rao\u003c/strong>: Of course! That’s, that just makes economic sense, right? Why would government situate your infrastructure in a place where you have to pay more?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> And the government has a long history of undervaluing properties where people of color and low-income people live and work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radhika Rao\u003c/strong>: And then there are also political reasons, you know, which communities have power, um, and which communities don’t, to organize against this kind of action.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: The 1960 census reveals the parts of West Oakland hit hardest by eminent domain projects were highly segregated … as much as 95% Black … with annual incomes far lower than the city average. The neighborhood in North Oakland that the Campilongos lived in had a higher median income but was also predominantly Black. Rhadika says these communities were vulnerable to eminent domain action and less likely to fight back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radhika Rao\u003c/strong>: Who has the money to hire a lawyer and go to court saying this, the compensation that you’re offering me is not just compensation? It’s not fair market value.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> BART records show that the agency acquired approximately 2,200 properties in order to build its first 75 miles of track. Some people sold their parcels to BART willingly, but others had to be evicted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip of news report: \u003c/strong>This is Seventh Street on Oakland’s west side.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> In this KPIX news report from 1967, BART staff are evicting an elderly Black woman named Leitha Blick from the thrift store she owns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News report:\u003c/strong> An admittedly blighted area, directly in the path of proposed Bay Area Rapid Transit District construction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> That word — blighted — is important. It’s a term that was used by urban redevelopment agencies throughout the country — including in Oakland — to describe neighborhoods that were seen as deteriorating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News report:\u003c/strong> Most of the homes and businesses in this area will have to be destroyed to make room for progress, and the push of progress is not always gentle. Angry and confused, many of the residents say they can’t buy new homes with the market value prices given them for the ones they now live in. Business people face the same dilemma.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> In the news clip, Blick stands by with her arms crossed as workers pack her things into boxes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News report footage:\u003c/strong> Miss Blick, had you and the Bay Area Rapid Transit District reached any agreement before this happened?\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Blick:\u003c/strong> No.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>News reporter:\u003c/strong> Why?\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Blick:\u003c/strong> Because, uh, the price wasn’t satisfactory.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>News reporter:\u003c/strong> You didn’t think they were offering you enough money for your merchandise?\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Blick:\u003c/strong> That’s correct. Moving us out, and we had no place to go, and I didn’t think they were offering enough, no way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> Blick tried to stop BART from taking her property…but ultimately lost. But there are some examples of people successfully altering BART’s plan.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nDocumentary footage:\u003c/strong> Berkeley was basically a segregated city. So, the whole of South Berkeley was pretty much a black neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>Pam Uzzell’s documentary “Welcome to the Neighborhood” chronicles one effort in Berkeley. It profiles Mable Howard, who argued that BART’s plan to put raised tracks through part of the city would divide it along racial lines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Documentary footage: \u003c/strong>A woman who said, I won’t have The city of Berkeley, divided in half, there won’t be any other side of the tracks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> In 1966, Berkeley voters approved a tax that would pay to put BART completely underground in Berkeley. But BART proposed a design for Ashby station that was slightly above ground. So Mable Howard teamed up with Ron Dellums, then a city council member, to sue the agency. Here’s a lawyer on the case, Matthew Weinberg.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Matthew Weinberg:\u003c/strong> We won the case. How do we know we won the case? Go to Berkeley. You’ll see the whole thing’s underground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>BART acknowledges this legacy of displacement and struggle. Here’s Chief Communications Officer Alicia Trost.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alicia Trost: \u003c/strong>There was a lot of generational wealth that was deeply impacted, if not destroyed, because of the building of the BART system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> BART now has an office of civil rights, and other equity initiatives that Trost says are critical to rebuilding trust.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alicia Trost:\u003c/strong> And especially when we’re building on our land, uh, we want to make sure there’s a carve-out specifically for affordable housing and that we are in a daily conversation with the community to make sure what we’re building is something that they want.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> As the agency imagines building a possible second transbay tube, Trost says they’re also developing anti-displacement goals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alicia Trost:\u003c/strong> Which, if that’s not lessons learned, you know, I don’t know what is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> I’ve gone through multiple public records requests and dozens of deeds, right-of-way contracts, and insurance policies for this story. At the end of it all, I paid another visit to Janine, our question-asker, and her mom, Johanne. I had something for them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman, talking to the Dictors:\u003c/strong> I actually found the contract that your grandparents signed with Bart, so here it is. And so this, you can see, like it says right-of-way contract, and it has your grandparents’ names on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> Oh, is that all they, so it was just 25,000. Is that right? Oh my God. Oh my gosh.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman talking to the Dictors:\u003c/strong> We’re looking at the original contract between Vito and Elizabeth Campilongo and the Bay Area Rapid Transportation District, dated Sept. 2, 1965.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Dictor:\u003c/strong> And it looks like my grandmother’s handwriting, too, actually.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> Oh, it does?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> It shows the Campilongos agreed to sell their property for $25,000. Adjusted for inflation, that’s about 245,000 dollars today. These days, homes go for around a million in that neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Dictor:\u003c/strong> Doesn’t it look like Nana’s?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> Not really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Dictor: \u003c/strong>That floral?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> Yeah, a little bit, but hers was, yeah, she had a good penmanship, Nana. Yeah,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> Janine and Johanne are excited to see the physical evidence of their family history. But after the initial excitement, the mood is somber.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Dictor:\u003c/strong> Going through this process, it’s like you realize it’s like about a lot more than what they were compensated, right? It’s about the fact that they were forced into this, that they lost a lifestyle, that they lost a community, you know. So, even if they got a good price, it’s kind of like, there’s still something to mourn there right about their experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> The word progress comes up a lot when talking about these kinds of projects. The idea is that progress, the greater good, justifies the sacrifice some families have to make. But for families like the Dictors, progress could feel like a step in the wrong direction. Here’s Johanne.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor: \u003c/strong>After we lost that house, we lost the sense of our family in a way, it seemed like. It was kind of driven apart. Because that house really brought us together. More than the house in San Leandro, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> Public infrastructure is often seen as a kind of equalizer … it’s something we all pay for and that anyone can use. But the fact is … some people had to pay more than others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was KQED reporter Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman.The use of eminent domain led to the displacement in some of the stories we explored today. It was often used to displace communities of color to make way for various infrastructure projects around the state. As part of its reparations efforts, California is now considering a bill that would compensate people if they can prove racism or discrimination prevented them from getting just compensation. To learn more about California’s reparations efforts, check out KQED’s coverage at KQED dot org slash reparations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Special Thanks to Pam Uzzell for allowing us to use clips from her documentary “Welcome to the Neighborhood” in this story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>This episode was edited by Katrina Schwartz.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Produced by Olivia Allen-Price.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Tamuna Chkareuli:\u003c/strong> Tamuna Chkareuli\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Pauline Bartolone\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Christopher Beale:\u003c/strong> And Christopher Beale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We get additional support from:\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Jen Chien:\u003c/strong> Jen Chien\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Katie Sprenger:\u003c/strong> Katie Sprenger\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Cesar Saldaña:\u003c/strong> Cesar Saldaña\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Maha Sanad\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/strong> Xorje Olivares:\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And the whole KQED family. Have a great week, everyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back in the early 1960s, when BART was just a sketch on a map, planners with the young transit agency had a task in front of them. BART had to acquire around 2,200 parcels of land in order to build the transportation system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Exactly how the agency went about getting that land was something that always puzzled Janine Dictor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For her, the question was also personal. Growing up, her family would tell stories about an amazing house her great-grandparents used to own in North Oakland, at 59th, and what is now Martin Luther King Jr. Way (it was called Grove Street back then). But the stories always ended with how they had to sell their home to BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>“There was always a sad tone to the story as if they didn’t have control over it,” Dictor said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dictor’s great-grandparents, Vito and Elizabeth Campilongo, loved that house. They were both immigrants from Italy, and they kept the house full of family, friends and good food. Vito tended a bountiful garden in the backyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My grandmother loved to cook in the basement,” said Johanne Dictor, Janine’s mother. “She had this great kitchen downstairs where she made her ravioli; she made her sausages with her women friends.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was a happy time, but it didn’t last. By the time Johanne was a teenager in the early ‘60s, one topic started to dominate their family dinners.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I remember we’d be sitting at the table and they’d say, ‘They’re going to take my house, they say we have to sell it. And we have to leave everything here.’ And you know, they just were devastated,” said Johanne about her grandparents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ultimately, the Campilongos sold their house to BART and moved to San Leandro. Her grandfather planted a new garden, but he felt it was never as big or as beautiful as the one in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He’d sit on the porch in San Leandro looking so sad,” remembers Johanne.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All this history left Janine wondering how exactly the sale of her great-grandparents’ house went down. So she asked KQED’s Bay Curious to look into how much property BART acquired at the time of its inception and whether any homeowners challenged the agency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There must be a pretty robust story behind all of this, and it’s just odd that we never have known quite what it is,” Janine said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986429\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1384px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2024/05/16/when-bart-was-built-people-and-houses-had-to-go/vito_elizabeth_family/\" rel=\"attachment wp-att-11986429\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11986429\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Vito_Elizabeth_family.png\" alt=\"An old black-and-white photo of a family in their living room\" width=\"1384\" height=\"1020\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Vito_Elizabeth_family.png 1384w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Vito_Elizabeth_family-800x590.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Vito_Elizabeth_family-1020x752.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Vito_Elizabeth_family-160x118.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1384px) 100vw, 1384px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Vito and Elizabeth Campilongo (center) left their North Oakland home in the 1960s to make room for a BART line. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the Campilongo family)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>And so BART begins\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Like much of the country in the early 1950s, the Bay Area was in a post-war building boom. New houses were going up all over the region, in places like Concord and Fremont. City planners had to figure out how folks would get around and travel between all these developments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>State lawmakers began \u003ca href=\"https://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=San_Francisco_Bay_Area_Rapid_Transit_Commission%E2%80%94The_Beginnings\">mapping out\u003c/a> a regional transportation system to connect the suburbs to the economic hubs of Oakland and San Francisco. In 1957, they passed a bill creating the Bay Area Rapid Transit District.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But BART needed land, including in residential areas where property was already owned and inhabited by people. As an entity charged with building public infrastructure, BART was given the power of eminent domain, a legal tool that helped it acquire the needed property.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Radhika Rao, a professor at UC San Francisco College of the Law, eminent domain allows the government to take people’s property “even if they don’t consent,” as long as it pays them fair market value for it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Eminent domain is an important tool for governments, said Rao, because infrastructure projects like hospitals, public schools, highways, parks and train tracks might never be built without it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Because you could have one private property owner who says, ‘My house stands in the way, you can’t build a highway,’ and then we have no highway. So our infrastructure depends upon government having this power,” Rao said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, Rao says, historically, the use of eminent domain in California has disproportionately affected low-income people and communities of color.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "‘That just makes economic sense, right? Why would government situate your infrastructure in a place where you have to pay more?’",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>One reason, she said, is that government agencies often use eminent domain in areas with lower property values since it costs them less to acquire that property.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That just makes economic sense, right? Why would government situate your infrastructure in a place where you have to pay more?” Rao said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another reason for the disproportionate impact, suggests Rao, is that government officials choose to develop areas where residents are less likely to organize against them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Who has the money to hire a lawyer and go to court saying, ‘the compensation that you’re offering me is not fair market value?’ Rao said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>West Oakland residents displaced\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>One of the places in the Bay Area hit hardest by eminent domain projects — including, but not limited to, BART construction — was West Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maxine Willis Ussery was born in Shreveport, Louisiana in 1939, but her family moved to West Oakland when she was just a few years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I was a girl, Seventh Street and all of West Oakland was predominantly Black, owned by Black people. Beautiful old Victorians were there,” Willis Ussery said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her family, like many Black families at the time, had come from the South in search of work and a better life. Her mother and father made the journey from Louisiana and settled in West Oakland. They found jobs at the nearby Naval shipyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They had no problems understanding that they had to develop their own businesses, their own services because that’s how they lived in the South,” Willis Ussery said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She says the West Oakland community had everything they needed: drug stores, groceries, restaurants, churches, doctors, and lawyers. But starting in the 1950s, successive government infrastructure projects ripped apart the fabric of this community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>First, government agencies demolished homes and businesses for the Nimitz Freeway (Interstate 880) in the 1950s. Then, in the following decades, they cleared more buildings to make way for the Oakland Main Post Office and the Acorn housing projects. And then, \u003ca href=\"https://diva.sfsu.edu/collections/sfbatv/bundles/232778\">there was BART\u003c/a>. The Oakland Planning Department estimates that between 5,100 and 9,700 housing units were lost in West Oakland in the 1960s alone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was like a dispersement of a whole community, not just taking the buildings, it was taking people who had lived there. Teachers, athletes, all of them were displaced,” Willis Ussery said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The effect on the community was disastrous, she said, especially for the older folks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They were up in age, and they were moved into areas where they could afford to go with the money they were given for BART, which was not a lot,” Willis Ussery said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A KQED analysis of the 1960 census reveals that the West Oakland census tracts hardest hit by eminent domain were where people of color lived — in some areas, as many as 95% of the residents were Black. Annual incomes in the development zones were also far lower than the city average. The neighborhood in North Oakland where the Campilongos lived had a higher median income but was also predominantly Black.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986231\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/240514-eminentdomain-25-bl-kqed/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11986231\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A BART train above two streets intersecting\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A BART train runs along the tracks at 59th Street and Martin Luther King Jr Way in Oakland on May 14, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Berkeley residents resist BART plans\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Some East Bay residents, such as Mable Howard of Berkeley, successfully altered BART’s path.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Howard argued that BART’s plan to construct raised tracks through part of the city would further divide it along racial lines. Her legal challenge was highlighted in the documentary “\u003ca href=\"https://video.kqed.org/video/welcome-to-the-neighborhood-truly-ca-zag6fb/\">Welcome to the Neighborhood\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As the documentary explains, in 1966, Berkeley voters approved a tax that would pay to put BART completely underground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But BART proposed a design for the Ashby station that was slightly above ground. Howard felt that the design would further segregate the city. She teamed up with the late East Bay politician Ron Dellums, then a city council member, to successfully sue the agency to underground all their Berkeley infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We won the case. How do we know we won the case? Go to Berkeley. You’ll see the whole thing’s underground,” said attorney Matthew Weinberg in the film.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>BART spokesperson: ‘Lessons learned’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>These days, it is hard to imagine a Bay Area without BART. People from all over the Bay Area make millions of trips on it every month. Even the aerial tracks that tower over Martin Luther King Jr. Way, where the Campilongo house used to stand, seem to blend into the background of freeways and buildings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BART’s Chief Communications Officer Alicia Trost says it’s still important for the agency to acknowledge the past harms that the agency committed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There was a lot of generational wealth that was deeply impacted, if not destroyed, because of the building of the BART system,” Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BART now has an Office of Civil Rights and other equity initiatives that Trost says are critical to rebuilding trust with the community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“Especially when we’re building on our land, we want to make sure there’s a carve-out specifically for affordable housing and that we are in a daily conversation with the community to make sure what we’re building is something that they want,” Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As the agency imagines future development, like building a possible second transbay tube between San Francisco and Oakland, she says they’re also developing plans to prevent the displacement of residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Trost said the uprooting of residents to create BART in the 1960s provided “lessons learned,” and mistakes that shouldn’t be repeated were made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>State leaders are also looking at the long-term impact that eminent domain property transfers have had on families and communities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California State Senator Steven Bradford, a member of California’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/reparations\">Reparations Task Force\u003c/a>, introduced a bill in February that would compensate former property owners if their parcel was taken through eminent domain, but they didn’t receive just compensation due to racism or discrimination by the government.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The price the Campilongos paid\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986413\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2024/05/16/when-bart-was-built-people-and-houses-had-to-go/campilongo_contract_page_01/\" rel=\"attachment wp-att-11986413\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11986413\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-800x1032.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"1032\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-800x1032.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-1020x1316.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-160x206.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-1190x1536.jpg 1190w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-1587x2048.jpg 1587w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01.jpg 1701w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The contract the Campilongos signed with BART.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A public records request submitted by KQED reveals that the Bay Area Rapid Transit District paid Vito and Elizabeth Campilongo $25,000 for their property in North Oakland on Sept. 2, 1965. Adjusted for inflation, that’s about $245,000 today. These days, homes go for around $1 million in that neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Janine and Johanne Dictor were excited to see the contract their relatives signed with BART, the physical evidence of their family history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Doesn’t that look like Nana’s handwriting?” Janine asked her mom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But after the initial excitement, the mood turned somber.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s about a lot more than what they were compensated,” Janine said. “It’s about the fact that they were forced into this, that they lost a lifestyle, that they lost a community,”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The premise of using eminent domain is that individual sacrifices are warranted to build public infrastructure. However, for families like the Dictors, the construction of BART was a painful turn in their history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“After we lost that house, we lost the sense of our family in a way. It was kind of driven apart,” her mom, Johanne, added. “That house really brought us together.”\u003cbr>\n\u003cem>\u003cbr>\nSpecial thanks to Pam Uzzell for providing parts of her documentary “Welcome to the Neighborhood” and to KQED’s Dan Brekke for reporting support and data analysis. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of BART\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Johanne Dictor points at the grassy median dividing the six lanes of Martin Luther King Junior Way in North Oakland. An elevated BART track towers overhead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> I guess my grandmother’s house was right here on the, the tracks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Johanne’s grandparents, Vito and Elizabeth Campilongo were immigrants from Italy. They loved their home on what was then 59th and Grove street in Oakland … Grove is Martin Luther King Jr Way these days. They kept the house full of family, friends and, as is the Italian way … good food.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> So she, she had this great kitchen downstairs where she made her ravioli. She made her sausages with her women friends. They’d come over, and all day, they’d make sausages down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And Vito grew food in the backyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Janine Dictor: Ah, garden, this master gardener with this beautiful, extensive garden that he used to cook these delicious Italian meals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> This was a happy time. But it didn’t last. By the time Johanne was a teenager in the early ’60s, one topic started to dominate their family dinners.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> I remember, you know, be sitting at the table and they’d say, you know, they’re, they’re gonna take my house, they say we have to sell it. And we have to leave everything here, and you know, they just were devastated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Ultimately, the Campilongos sold their house to BART and moved to San Leandro. Her grandfather planted a new garden, but it was never as big or as beautiful as the one in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> He’d sit on the porch like in San Leandro looking so sad, you know, (cries)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Johanne’s daughter, Janine, grew up with this family story. But she has always thought it was odd that they didn’t know more about how it all went down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Dictor:\u003c/strong> How many properties were acquired? Did anybody challenge, you know, Bart’s ability to acquire their property? What was the outcome of that? Um, yeah, just there seems like there must, there must be a pretty robust story behind all of this. And it’s just odd that we never have known what, quite what it is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen Price, and today on Bay Curious the story of how families like the Campilongos were uprooted to make way for BART. Theirs is a common story — people have been displaced for large infrastructure projects time and time again all across the United States. And it’s still happening today. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Area Rapid Transit…better known as BART…is a fixture of life in the Bay Area today. But many families and businesses were displaced to build it. KQED reporter Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman is going to help us understand how it all went down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> In the early ’50s, the Bay Area, like much of the country, was in a post-war building boom. New houses were going up all over the region in places like Concord and Fremont. And a big question was how folks would get around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of BART promo reel\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> State lawmakers began planning for a regional transportation system to connect the suburbs to the economic hubs of Oakland and San Francisco. There was a lot of excitement … which you can hear in this promotional video for BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>BART promo reel:\u003c/strong>…To do this by weaving into the fabric of the Bay Area an entirely new and vastly better way of getting around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> In 1962, voters in Alameda, Contra Costa, and San Francisco counties approved a nearly 800 million dollar bond to build the new tracks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>BART promo reel:\u003c/strong>… Locations of lines and stations was the first step in the long planning process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: But BART needed land, including in residential areas where property was already owned and inhabited by people. The Campilongos neighborhood in North Oakland was one of those areas; another was West Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maxine Ussery\u003c/strong>: When I was a girl, there were… So 7th Street and all of West Oakland was predominantly black, owned by black people. Beautiful old Victorians were there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: Maxine Ussery was born in Oakland in 1939. Her family, like many Black families at the time, had come from the South in search of work and a better life. Maxine’s mother and father made the journey from Louisiana and settled in West Oakland. They found jobs at the nearby Naval Shipyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maxine Ussery\u003c/strong>: They had no problems understanding that they had to, in fact, develop their own businesses, their own services, because that’s how they lived in the South.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: She says the West Oakland community had everything they needed…drug stores, groceries, restaurants, churches, doctors and lawyers. But starting in the 1950s, successive government infrastructure projects ripped apart the fabric of this community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maxine Ussery\u003c/strong>: They forced people to move.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: Government agencies demolished homes and businesses for the Nimitz Freeway in the ’50s. Then, in the following decades, they cleared more buildings to make way for Oakland’s Main Post Office and the Acorn housing projects. And then, there was BART. The Oakland Planning Department estimates that upwards of 5,000 units of housing were destroyed in West Oakland in the 1960s alone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maxine Ussery\u003c/strong>: It was like a disbursement of a, of a whole group of a whole community, not just, uh, taking the buildings, it was taking people and who had lived there and who, uh, uh, teachers, um, uh, uh, educate, you know, people who were athletes, all of them were displaced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: Maxine says the effect on the community was disastrous, especially for the older folks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maxine Ussery\u003c/strong>: They were up in age, and they were moved into areas where they, that where they could afford to go with the money they were given for BART, which was not a lot. It wasn’t enough money for them to live on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: Many of the infrastructure projects in West Oakland that Maxine talks about were only possible because of a legal tool known as eminent domain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radhika Rao\u003c/strong>: So that’s the part of the Constitution that gives government the power to come along and take people’s private property even if they don’t consent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: Radhika Rao is a professor of Law at UC San Francisco College of the Law. Eminent domain allows public agencies to buy private property at “fair market value” in order to build infrastructure that is in the public interest. Think hospitals, Public Schools, Highways, Parks, and train tracks. Radhika says without it, infrastructure projects like these might never get built.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radhika Rao\u003c/strong>: Because you could have one private property owner who says, my house stands in the way; you can’t build a highway. And then we have no highway. So, our infrastructure depends upon government having this power. It’s, it’s super important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: But Rhadika says government agencies often target areas with lower property values because they cost less.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radhika Rao\u003c/strong>: Of course! That’s, that just makes economic sense, right? Why would government situate your infrastructure in a place where you have to pay more?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> And the government has a long history of undervaluing properties where people of color and low-income people live and work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radhika Rao\u003c/strong>: And then there are also political reasons, you know, which communities have power, um, and which communities don’t, to organize against this kind of action.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: The 1960 census reveals the parts of West Oakland hit hardest by eminent domain projects were highly segregated … as much as 95% Black … with annual incomes far lower than the city average. The neighborhood in North Oakland that the Campilongos lived in had a higher median income but was also predominantly Black. Rhadika says these communities were vulnerable to eminent domain action and less likely to fight back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radhika Rao\u003c/strong>: Who has the money to hire a lawyer and go to court saying this, the compensation that you’re offering me is not just compensation? It’s not fair market value.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> BART records show that the agency acquired approximately 2,200 properties in order to build its first 75 miles of track. Some people sold their parcels to BART willingly, but others had to be evicted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip of news report: \u003c/strong>This is Seventh Street on Oakland’s west side.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> In this KPIX news report from 1967, BART staff are evicting an elderly Black woman named Leitha Blick from the thrift store she owns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News report:\u003c/strong> An admittedly blighted area, directly in the path of proposed Bay Area Rapid Transit District construction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> That word — blighted — is important. It’s a term that was used by urban redevelopment agencies throughout the country — including in Oakland — to describe neighborhoods that were seen as deteriorating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News report:\u003c/strong> Most of the homes and businesses in this area will have to be destroyed to make room for progress, and the push of progress is not always gentle. Angry and confused, many of the residents say they can’t buy new homes with the market value prices given them for the ones they now live in. Business people face the same dilemma.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> In the news clip, Blick stands by with her arms crossed as workers pack her things into boxes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News report footage:\u003c/strong> Miss Blick, had you and the Bay Area Rapid Transit District reached any agreement before this happened?\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Blick:\u003c/strong> No.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>News reporter:\u003c/strong> Why?\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Blick:\u003c/strong> Because, uh, the price wasn’t satisfactory.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>News reporter:\u003c/strong> You didn’t think they were offering you enough money for your merchandise?\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Blick:\u003c/strong> That’s correct. Moving us out, and we had no place to go, and I didn’t think they were offering enough, no way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> Blick tried to stop BART from taking her property…but ultimately lost. But there are some examples of people successfully altering BART’s plan.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nDocumentary footage:\u003c/strong> Berkeley was basically a segregated city. So, the whole of South Berkeley was pretty much a black neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>Pam Uzzell’s documentary “Welcome to the Neighborhood” chronicles one effort in Berkeley. It profiles Mable Howard, who argued that BART’s plan to put raised tracks through part of the city would divide it along racial lines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Documentary footage: \u003c/strong>A woman who said, I won’t have The city of Berkeley, divided in half, there won’t be any other side of the tracks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> In 1966, Berkeley voters approved a tax that would pay to put BART completely underground in Berkeley. But BART proposed a design for Ashby station that was slightly above ground. So Mable Howard teamed up with Ron Dellums, then a city council member, to sue the agency. Here’s a lawyer on the case, Matthew Weinberg.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Matthew Weinberg:\u003c/strong> We won the case. How do we know we won the case? Go to Berkeley. You’ll see the whole thing’s underground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>BART acknowledges this legacy of displacement and struggle. Here’s Chief Communications Officer Alicia Trost.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alicia Trost: \u003c/strong>There was a lot of generational wealth that was deeply impacted, if not destroyed, because of the building of the BART system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> BART now has an office of civil rights, and other equity initiatives that Trost says are critical to rebuilding trust.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alicia Trost:\u003c/strong> And especially when we’re building on our land, uh, we want to make sure there’s a carve-out specifically for affordable housing and that we are in a daily conversation with the community to make sure what we’re building is something that they want.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> As the agency imagines building a possible second transbay tube, Trost says they’re also developing anti-displacement goals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alicia Trost:\u003c/strong> Which, if that’s not lessons learned, you know, I don’t know what is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> I’ve gone through multiple public records requests and dozens of deeds, right-of-way contracts, and insurance policies for this story. At the end of it all, I paid another visit to Janine, our question-asker, and her mom, Johanne. I had something for them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman, talking to the Dictors:\u003c/strong> I actually found the contract that your grandparents signed with Bart, so here it is. And so this, you can see, like it says right-of-way contract, and it has your grandparents’ names on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> Oh, is that all they, so it was just 25,000. Is that right? Oh my God. Oh my gosh.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman talking to the Dictors:\u003c/strong> We’re looking at the original contract between Vito and Elizabeth Campilongo and the Bay Area Rapid Transportation District, dated Sept. 2, 1965.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Dictor:\u003c/strong> And it looks like my grandmother’s handwriting, too, actually.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> Oh, it does?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> It shows the Campilongos agreed to sell their property for $25,000. Adjusted for inflation, that’s about 245,000 dollars today. These days, homes go for around a million in that neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Dictor:\u003c/strong> Doesn’t it look like Nana’s?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> Not really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Dictor: \u003c/strong>That floral?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> Yeah, a little bit, but hers was, yeah, she had a good penmanship, Nana. Yeah,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> Janine and Johanne are excited to see the physical evidence of their family history. But after the initial excitement, the mood is somber.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Dictor:\u003c/strong> Going through this process, it’s like you realize it’s like about a lot more than what they were compensated, right? It’s about the fact that they were forced into this, that they lost a lifestyle, that they lost a community, you know. So, even if they got a good price, it’s kind of like, there’s still something to mourn there right about their experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> The word progress comes up a lot when talking about these kinds of projects. The idea is that progress, the greater good, justifies the sacrifice some families have to make. But for families like the Dictors, progress could feel like a step in the wrong direction. Here’s Johanne.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor: \u003c/strong>After we lost that house, we lost the sense of our family in a way, it seemed like. It was kind of driven apart. Because that house really brought us together. More than the house in San Leandro, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> Public infrastructure is often seen as a kind of equalizer … it’s something we all pay for and that anyone can use. But the fact is … some people had to pay more than others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was KQED reporter Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman.The use of eminent domain led to the displacement in some of the stories we explored today. It was often used to displace communities of color to make way for various infrastructure projects around the state. As part of its reparations efforts, California is now considering a bill that would compensate people if they can prove racism or discrimination prevented them from getting just compensation. To learn more about California’s reparations efforts, check out KQED’s coverage at KQED dot org slash reparations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Special Thanks to Pam Uzzell for allowing us to use clips from her documentary “Welcome to the Neighborhood” in this story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>This episode was edited by Katrina Schwartz.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Produced by Olivia Allen-Price.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Tamuna Chkareuli:\u003c/strong> Tamuna Chkareuli\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Pauline Bartolone\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Christopher Beale:\u003c/strong> And Christopher Beale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We get additional support from:\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Jen Chien:\u003c/strong> Jen Chien\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Katie Sprenger:\u003c/strong> Katie Sprenger\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Cesar Saldaña:\u003c/strong> Cesar Saldaña\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Maha Sanad\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/strong> Xorje Olivares:\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And the whole KQED family. Have a great week, everyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Inside Sutro Baths, San Francisco's Once Grand Bathing Palace",
"headTitle": "Inside Sutro Baths, San Francisco’s Once Grand Bathing Palace | KQED",
"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Standing at the Lands’ End parking lot, overlooking the ruins of Sutro Baths, it feels like the edge of the world. To the left, Point Lobos Road winds down towards the straight stretch of Ocean Beach, past the Cliff House restaurant perched atop an overlook. And out in front is the wild Pacific Ocean, crashing against a man-made seawall stretching across the bottom of the cove. A faint outline of square pools can still be seen, but it looks more like a playland for the ducks and cormorants than a place humans would want to swim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s hard to tell now, but Sutro Baths was \u003ci>the place to be\u003c/i> at the turn of the 19th century. Seven massive baths were built into the cove, each filled with seawater and heated to different temperatures. A beautiful glass pavilion covered the pools to shield swimmers from the wind and fog. So, what happened to the grand establishment? How did it go from a glittering bathing palace to wild ruins?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To understand the history of Sutro Baths, we first need to learn about the man for whom they are named — Adolph Sutro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985364\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985364\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut.jpg\" alt=\"A black cormorant spreads its wings on the remnants of a wall. The ocean crashes in the distance.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Seagulls, cormorants and ducks have made the remnants of the Sutro Baths their home now. The ruins are a beautiful place to explore and imagine what once stood here. \u003ccite>(Tamuna Chkareuli/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>A self-made man\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Born in 1830, Adolph Sutro was a German Jewish immigrant to San Francisco. He arrived in 1850, at the height of the Gold Rush, and set up a shop selling dry goods — mostly tobacco. When news of a silver deposit in Nevada hit the newspapers, he dropped everything and headed out to work on the Comstock Lode. First, he ran a refining mill but kept thinking about one of mining’s biggest problems — surface water. It would seep down from above, sometimes drowning miners deep below the earth’s surface.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985371\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 394px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985371\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/adolph-sutro-cropped.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white portrait of a white man with white hair and mutton chops whiskers.\" width=\"394\" height=\"444\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/adolph-sutro-cropped.jpg 394w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/adolph-sutro-cropped-160x180.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 394px) 100vw, 394px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Adolph Sutro, 1830–98. He served as mayor of San Francisco from 1895–97. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A143030?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=50b41f01b154203e6a0f&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=0\">San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Sutro’s solution was to build a big tunnel that would carry water away from workers, making the conditions much safer. He opened his Sutro Tunnel in 1878 to much acclaim. Not only did it make mining safer, but it also offered an easier way to extract the silver ore and offered another escape route for miners in an emergency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He was able to eventually patent this and became kind of a mythical figure among the silver miners in that part of Nevada,” said Hector Falero, a former education manager for the Golden Gate National Recreation Area, \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/goga/learn/historyculture/upload/sutro_history.pdf\">the National Park that manages the Sutro Baths site now\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sutro returned to San Francisco a rich man and began investing in real estate. He loved the “Outside Lands” at the far western edge of the city, \u003ca href=\"https://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=How_Many_Cliff_Houses%3F\">near the Cliff House\u003c/a>, and bought close to 22 acres of oceanfront property overlooking a nearby cove. He built his mansion there at Sutro Heights and began planning for a grand attraction in the cove itself. Just a few years later, he also bought the Cliff House and started planning to redesign it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985365\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1423px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985365\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutros-cliff-house.png\" alt=\"Black and white photo of a massive Victorian-era structure perched on a cliff overlooking the ocean.\" width=\"1423\" height=\"557\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutros-cliff-house.png 1423w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutros-cliff-house-800x313.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutros-cliff-house-1020x399.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutros-cliff-house-160x63.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1423px) 100vw, 1423px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">After purchasing the Cliff House, Sutro rebuilt it in grand style. Soon after it opened, a fire destroyed it. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A129779?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=6afb3a4aaad152445a8c&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=5\">San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Building Sutro Baths\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before Sutro got hold of it, the cove below the Cliff House was a quiet little beach surrounded by steep cliffs. Sutro was fascinated by marine life and loved watching sea lions play on the rocks. Legend has it, that’s what gave him the idea of creating an aquarium in the cove. He first built a circular pool on the northwest end that would be filled by seawater rushing in from a large tunnel he bore through the rock. He planned to fill the aquarium pool with ocean water and sea creatures — like a man-made tidepool — and then, as the water gradually seeped through a drainage canal he built, the sea creatures would be left behind and easy to view.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The tunnel and pool worked so well that Sutro kept building. He refocused his efforts on building an attraction for saltwater swimming, which was booming in popularity. The round aquarium pool became a settling tank, a place for any sediment from the ocean water to separate out. He added a seawall to protect the cove from the waves and built a massive swimming pool across the entire cove. It was subdivided into seven pools, each holding water of a different temperature. Cold seawater would rush through the tunnel, past a boiler house where it would mix with very hot water, and then stream down through the various pools, getting cooler as it went. The largest pool was the coldest — the temperature of the sea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985373\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 700px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985373\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-interior-baths-OpenSF.jpg\" alt=\"Huge glass and steel structure covers a bathing facility with seven pools.\" width=\"700\" height=\"549\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-interior-baths-OpenSF.jpg 700w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-interior-baths-OpenSF-160x125.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Inside Sutro Baths circa 1910 looking north towards the promenade. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://opensfhistory.org/Display/wnp4/wnp4.0211.jpg\">OpenSFHistory / wnp4/wnp4.0211\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A prospectus from the San Francisco-based Floating Sea-Bath Company touted the positive effects of seawater bathing:\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>\u003ci>Pleasure is an essential item of the real bath, and among the most active of its beneficial forces. There can be no doubt that a great number of our citizens would seek to enjoy the tonic effects of sea bathing, but for the low temperatures of the water.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>Sutro solved that problem. And he didn’t stop there. He built a massive pavilion over the baths to protect swimmers from cold sea air and fog. Made of iron girders, wood and glass, it was a giant white building with a 3-acre footprint. Visitors entered from above, off Point Lobos Avenue, and descended a grand stairway to the baths below.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sutro Baths wasn’t just a swimming facility — it was a place to be seen. There were several levels to stop and promenade, restaurants, bars, and a museum of curios Sutro had collected while traveling all over the world, including some rare mummies. For 25 cents, visitors could enter the baths, rent a bathing suit and towel, use the changing rooms and swim all day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o4JS0d_qyY\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sutro knew getting people out to his new attraction would be challenging since the neighborhoods near Golden Gate Park were not built up yet, and most people lived much further east. So, he waged war with the railroad companies to keep the streetcar fares low, enabling the average working person to afford a visit to the baths. This egalitarian fight won him a lot of goodwill with San Franciscans, who eventually elected him mayor in 1895. For a while, there was even a train that went along the cliff at Lands’ End, offering spectacular views of the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qgapRWmiUY\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>\u003cb>Sutro Baths officially open in 1896\u003c/b>\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>After more than a decade of construction, the baths officially opened in 1896. They were an immediate hit. The space was big enough for an orchestra to play, and Sutro regularly hosted large events at the baths. There were competitions, concerts and diving displays.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985382\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1423px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985382\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/aerial-view-sutros-history-center.png\" alt=\"Black and white aerial view of the massive Sutro Baths pavilion.\" width=\"1423\" height=\"557\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/aerial-view-sutros-history-center.png 1423w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/aerial-view-sutros-history-center-800x313.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/aerial-view-sutros-history-center-1020x399.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/aerial-view-sutros-history-center-160x63.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1423px) 100vw, 1423px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An aerial view shows just how massive the baths and pavilion were when finished. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A130128?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=950123d10c91ec349686&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=2&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=8\">San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Site of an early civil rights lawsuit\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Sutro Baths advertised itself as a place for \u003ci>all San Franciscans\u003c/i> to enjoy the salubrious effects of sea bathing, but that wasn’t actually true.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On July 4, 1897, just a few months after the baths officially opened, John Harris, an African American waiter, paid to enter the baths with a group of his white friends. He was told he was not allowed to swim because of the color of his skin. A week later, he tried again and was once again rebuffed. So, he sued the Sutro family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“To challenge the former mayor of San Francisco really took a lot of chutzpah, bravado,” said historian and writer Elaine Elinson. \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/goga/learn/historyculture/john-harris-civil-rights.htm\">She researched John Harris’ story for the National Park Service. \u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just a year before, \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/goga/learn/historyculture/john-harris-civil-rights.htm\">California passed the Dibble Civil Rights Act, the first of its kind in the state\u003c/a>, which made it illegal to discriminate in public places based on race. Harris used the new law to challenge his treatment at Sutro Baths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985391\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 750px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985391\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/opensfhistory_wnp4_wnp4.0298.jpg\" alt=\"Large group of white swimmers in old fashioned swim suits.\" width=\"750\" height=\"601\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/opensfhistory_wnp4_wnp4.0298.jpg 750w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/opensfhistory_wnp4_wnp4.0298-160x128.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 750px) 100vw, 750px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A crowd of all-white swimmers at Sutro Baths, circa 1910. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://opensfhistory.org/Display/wnp4/wnp4.0298.jpg\">OpenSFHistory / wnp4/wnp4.0298\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A group of Black activists, known as the African American Assembly, supported Harris’ suit by paying his legal fees. They hoped this early test of the new civil rights law would give it teeth.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>A deeper history of Black activism in California\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Dibble Civil Rights Act was the result of many years of organizing by California’s Black residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of the people who ended up as civic leaders or church leaders were already highly experienced and skilled in the abolitionist movement,” said Susan Anderson, the history curator at the \u003ca href=\"https://caamuseum.org/\">African American Museum in Los Angeles\u003c/a>. She’s writing a book about how Black Californians have influenced civic culture and institutions going back to before statehood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was significant to Black people to have their rights enshrined,” Anderson said. “They worked together to influence Assembly Member [Henry Clay] Dibble to sponsor the Dibble Act, California’s first civil rights act, in 1896.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s likely Black activists wrote the law, Anderson said and lobbied other legislators to pass it. At a time when racist attitudes and policies limited Black Californians to only the most menial jobs — porters, waiters, clerks — this was a tremendous feat. Black people used the connections they made through these serving jobs to push the causes important to them, Anderson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8581019303&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So if you’re a porter or clerk in a court, and you’re an activist, you find comrades and allies and people you can network with who are powerful for your cause,” Anderson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She points out that the African American organizations of the time were very organized. Members across California met once a year to set their agenda, and then local chapters worked to implement them. Before California even became a state, they worked on issues like the right to vote, the right to testify in court, equal access to education and, of course, anti-discrimination laws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the Dibble Civil Rights Law passed in 1896, local groups, like the African American Assembly Club in San Francisco, started testing the law. That’s what John Harris did at Sutro Baths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“John Harris won his case, but he only earned $100 for the two times he was refused entrance to the baths,” said Elaine Elinson. “So it wasn’t a monetary victory, but it was a very, very important civil rights victory.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite this historic victory, very little changed at Sutro Baths. \u003ca href=\"http://www.outsidelands.org/sutro-baths-segregation.php\">It remained segregated in practice, if not by law\u003c/a>, until the Civil Rights era of the 1950s and ‘60s. There are cases of other non-white San Franciscans being denied entry, too, including members of the city’s large Chinese American community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is interesting to see that these cases [were] challenged and won, but often did not change public attitudes or public policy,” Elinson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Sutro Baths’ slow decline\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985394\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1423px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985394\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/inside-sutros-tropical-history-center.png\" alt=\"Black and white photo of cabanas with straw roofs inside a large glass pavilion.\" width=\"1423\" height=\"557\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/inside-sutros-tropical-history-center.png 1423w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/inside-sutros-tropical-history-center-800x313.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/inside-sutros-tropical-history-center-1020x399.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/inside-sutros-tropical-history-center-160x63.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1423px) 100vw, 1423px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Sutro family revamped the interior of the baths several times, including this tropical version circa 1935. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A130193?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=5c559fc2d23fe6107f55&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=5\">San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Adolph Sutro died just a few years after the baths officially opened in 1898. He was 68 years old and left Sutro Baths to his children. They continued to operate the site, even though it didn’t make much money. Sutro had sunk a lot of cash into constructing the grand facility, costing a fortune to run.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the 1930s, when the Great Depression hit, many San Franciscans didn’t have the money for a leisure day out, and the baths began to fall into disrepair. Adolph Sutro’s grandson tried revamping the business in 1936 by covering some of the pools and building an ice skating rink. That was a popular move but it didn’t do enough to save the business. Eventually, in 1952, the Sutros announced they would close the facility. That’s when one of their competitors — George Whitney — swooped in and bought it for a bargain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JklqpaDdYX0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Whitney owned \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11925112/idora-park-and-playland-at-the-beach-bay-area-amusement-parks-of-a-bygone-era\">Playland-at-the-Beach, a popular amusement park on Ocean Beach\u003c/a>. He thought he could squeeze a little more money out of Sutros and use the space to house his collection of mechanical oddities. But his family couldn’t make a go of it either and ended up selling the property to a developer who planned to build condominiums on the site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sutros finally closed for good in 1966. Just a few months later, a fire burned the grand structure to the ground. People from the neighborhood came out and watched the iconic building burn. The police suspected arson but could never prove it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985395\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1423px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985395\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-fire-history-center.png\" alt=\"Smoke billows from the skeleton of a building built on a cliff overlooking the ocean.\" width=\"1423\" height=\"557\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-fire-history-center.png 1423w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-fire-history-center-800x313.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-fire-history-center-1020x399.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-fire-history-center-160x63.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1423px) 100vw, 1423px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Sutro Baths pavilion burned to the ground in 1966. Neighbors came out to watch the iconic building burn. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A130156?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=2fad4a0f6ccdbd8148f8&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=6&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=14\">San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>About a decade later, the National Park Service bought the property for open space. The community didn’t want the park to build interpretive services at the site of the old baths, instead preferring its current state — a set of ruins that hearken back to a grand past but that are free and open for all to explore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sounds of birds, distant waves crashing, people talking, wind\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene):\u003c/b> Wow. Okay, so I’ve been to this place a few times, but never on a day quite like today. It is a stunner out here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene):\u003c/b> Beautiful weather, perfect May day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>Hey, everyone. Olivia Allen-Price here with Katrina Schwartz, producer extraordinaire of Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Hello.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>And we are at Sutro Baths. So right at the entrance of Land’s End, the hiking trail, if you’ve done that. We’re looking at the Cliff House to our left, a long-time-running restaurant, currently not running, but hopefully will come back again soon. But down in this cove is really why we are here. There is something pretty interesting down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>It looks like a massive pool, except the edges of it are more like a pond with moss growing and ducks and seagulls. People are walking out on that retaining wall, but it has this air of mystery because you can tell something was once here, but now nature is reclaiming it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Today on Bay Curious, we’re going on a field trip to a spot many of you have been requesting over the years! We’ll learn why and how Sutro Baths were built, what visiting would have felt like back in the day, and while researching this story, we stumbled upon a lesser known piece of civil rights history — so we’ll be sharing that. This story first appeared in the Bay Curious book — available now wherever books are sold. We’re diving in — literally — just ahead on Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> San Francisco has a lot of historic places, many of which have been rebuilt or repurposed in modern ways. But the ruins of Sutro Baths remain wild and untouched. Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz brings us the story of the rise and fall of this iconic bathing palace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> To understand why these somewhat sparse ruins have captivated the imaginations of locals and visitors alike, we need to learn a bit more about the man behind them. Adolph Sutro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>He was born in Germany in 1830 to a Jewish family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Hector Falero is a former education manager for the Golden Gate Recreation Area — the National Park that manages the Sutro Baths site now. He says Sutro arrived in San Francisco as a young man in 1850, right as the Gold Rush was kicking off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>He’s living in San Francisco and mostly selling tobacco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Many of his customers were miners, and he learned as much as he could about the business. When news of a massive silver discovery in Nevada hit the papers, he decided to join the fray and try to make his fortune on the Comstock Lode. He first opened a refining mill, but he’d long been thinking about one of mining’s biggest problems — surface water. It would seep down, sometimes drowning miners. Adolph Sutro’s solution was to build a huge tunnel deep in the mine that ran downhill and carried water away from the workmen. The Sutro Tunnel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>He was able to eventually patent this and became kind of like a mythical figure among the silver miners in that part of Nevada.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Sutro made millions on his invention. He returned to San Francisco a rich man and began investing in real estate. He especially liked the wind-swept “Outside Lands” near the Pacific Ocean. Not many people lived out there yet, but Sutro wanted to change that. In 1881, he bought 22 acres of oceanfront property overlooking the Cliff House, which was already operating as an inn and restaurant. Sutro would buy the Cliff House just a few years later and incorporate it into his grand vision for the area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>Where he saw a gap was in bathing or swimming.\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>In the late 1800s, most people lived crowded into boarding houses and rented rooms in downtown San Francisco. Saltwater swimming was all the rage, a welcome respite from these cramped interiors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>There was some sort of like concept of health associated with Pacific waters. But it’s very cold. And so the need that Adolfo Sutro saw was, hey, I would love to create some baths and I would love to create them to be sort of temperature controlled.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Sutro put his engineering brain to work designing a series of pools and tunnels that would harness the tides to create a swimming facility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first problem to solve was how to bring seawater into a protected pool away from crashing ocean waves. So, Sutro did what he did best. He built a massive tunnel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>The water would rush in at high tide and be able to fill the pools almost instantly. This was one of the technological aspects that was incredible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>He demonstrated the system to reporters nearly a decade \u003ci>before\u003c/i> the baths would officially open. An article in the \u003cem>San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em> reads:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice-over reads newspaper clipping: \u003c/b>At great expense, a tunnel was excavated, 8 feet high and 15 feet long, through the solid rock. It is through this tunnel that the water comes at extreme high tide and for about two hours before and after.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Over the next many years, Sutro transformed this quiet cove into a massive engineering project. He built a seawall across the entire span to keep the waves out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>He lined most of the cove with concrete.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>John Martini is the author of \u003ci>Sutro’s Glass Palace: The Story of Sutro Baths.\u003c/i> He presented his research to the San Francisco Historical Society.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>So he literally subdivided the cove into what he called swimming tanks. We’d call ‘em pools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>There were seven pools in all. Seawater would rush in through the tunnel and mix with extremely hot water coming out of a boiler house. Then, the rush of water would flow into the pools, each a different temperature.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>The warmest pool was about 85, 86 degrees, maybe up to 90. And then they were sequentially cooler until the biggest pool that was ocean temperature. They didn’t bother to heat it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>But that’s not all. Anyone who’s been out to Lands End knows how cold and windy it can be, so Sutro decided to build a huge glass pavilion to cover the pools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>So, instead of an open-air swimming establishment, you ended up with the world’s largest indoor swimming complex.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>When it was finished, the baths had a footprint of 3 acres, about the same size as the ferry building — 10,000 people could pack inside.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>People entered, and they descended a flight of stairs. The first level that you hit is called a promenade level, and the promenade level is where a lot of the museum displays were. You walked under a giant vestibule and then down a grand staircase that led you all the way down to the water on either side.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>After more than a decade of construction, the baths formally opened in 1896. The \u003cem>San Francisco Examiner\u003c/em> described the event.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice over reading newspaper excerpt: \u003c/b>Nearly 7,000 people gathered at the immense pavilion yesterday to witness the dedication of the magnificent structure, which Adolph Sutro has built on his land near the ocean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>There were restaurants and bars, curiosities from around the world — like mummies and a stuffed polar — space for a large band to play, an amphitheater and lots of areas to promenade. It was a place to be seen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>Those were colored panes of glass in the domes overhead so that sunlight gave multicolored, rippling effects on the water, especially when thousands and thousands of people at a time, making waves in the water, kids screams, music playing. It was an overwhelming sensation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Sutro wanted the working classes to be able to enjoy a day at his leisure palace. … and to spend their money there. … so he pushed the railroads to keep the streetcar fares to Outside Lands low.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: He had this sort of egalitarian slant.\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Hector Falero says his populist streak made him popular with the people. They even elected him mayor!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero:\u003c/b> He wanted people Of various class backgrounds to be able to access the place equitably.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>For 25 cents, visitors could rent a bathing suit, use the lockers, visit the attractions, swim and stay all day. Advertising campaigns at the time said Sutro Baths welcomed ALL San Franciscans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But that wasn’t actually true.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Somber music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>One day, a group of friends took the streetcar from downtown out to enjoy a day at the new attraction. It was the fourth of July 1897, just a few months after the baths officially opened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Ellnson: \u003c/b>John Harris, who is an African American man, went with his several white friends to the baths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Writer and historian Elaine Elinson researched this history for the National Park Service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Elinson: \u003c/b>He was a waiter in San Francisco, and he paid his $0.25. And his white friends got their bathing suits and went in the pools. And he was told he could not go into the pools. Only his white friends could go into the pools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> John Harris tried to enter the baths again a week later. Again, he was not allowed to swim because of the color of his skin. So, he sued the Sutro family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Elinson: \u003c/b>To challenge the former mayor of San Francisco really took a lot of chutzpah, bravado.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>John Harris used a new California law called The Dibble Civil Rights Act to challenge his treatment at the baths. The law prohibited discrimination in public places based on race.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan Anderson: \u003c/b>That all came out of black California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Susan Anderson is the history curator for the California African American Museum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan Anderson: \u003c/b>It was significant to black people to have their rights enshrined. They worked together to influence Assembly Member Dibble to sponsor the Dibble Act, California’s first civil rights act, in 1896.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Many Black migrants to California were already skilled leaders in the abolitionist movement. Racist policies and attitudes limited them to low-paying jobs — hotel waiters, railroad porters, clerks — but through their work, they got to know powerful men like Dibble.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan Anderson: \u003c/b>Enterprising people make the most of it. So, if you’re a porter or clerk in a court. And you’re an activist; you find comrades and allies and people you can network with people who are powerful for your cause.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Black activists likely \u003ci>wrote\u003c/i> the Dibble Civil Rights Act and lobbied other legislators to pass it. Then, local groups like the African American Assembly in San Francisco tested the law, trying to give it teeth. That’s what John Harris did at Sutro Baths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Elinson: \u003c/b>We don’t have any exact testimony from John Harris himself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Historian Elaine Elinson again. She says the court records burned in the 1906 fire. And mainstream newspapers of the day didn’t bother interviewing the central figure in the case, John Harris himself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Ellinson: \u003c/b>I have to say that the mainstream press was really vitriolic against John Harris and the judge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Elaine pieced together her account from lawyers’ notes, newspaper articles and personal letters. She says the African American Assembly paid Harris’ legal fees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Elinson: \u003c/b>John Harris won his case, but, you know, he only earned $100 for the two times he was refused entrance to the baths. So it wasn’t a monetary victory, but it was a very, very important civil rights victory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>The Sutro family and Bath managers were unrepentant. They continued to make racist remarks that the mainstream newspapers published.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Elinson: \u003c/b>It is interesting to see that these cases challenged and won but often did not change public attitudes or public policy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Two years after Sutro Baths opened, Adolph Sutro died. He was 68. He left his estate and properties to his children, who continued to run the baths. And the attraction remained incredibly popular, but the Sutro family was ready to unload the property.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>They kept trying to sell it. No one wanted to buy it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>John Martini says Sutro sunk a lot of cash into constructing the baths, and they cost a fortune to run. His children wanted to recoup that investment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>In 1913, the family tried to get the city to buy it. No dice. The city turned it down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Then, in the ’30s, the Great Depression hit. Many San Franciscans didn’t have money for a leisure day at the baths, and slowly, the facilities began to fall into disrepair. Adolph Sutro’s grandson was in charge at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>He decided to rebuild part of the baths and turn it into an indoor ice skating rink, and it opened in 1936 and it was immensely popular. Immediately popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>John Martini remembers going there as a kid in the 1950s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>The ice rink was actually quite dark inside. It turned out that all that great glass. It tended to melt the ice. So, they intentionally blanked out the glass roof over the ice skating rink.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>In 1952, the Sutro family announced they were closing the facility. It just cost too much to run. That’s when one of their competitors, George Whitney, swooped in and bought it for a bargain. Whitney owned Playland-at-the-Beach, the popular amusement park on Ocean Beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>George Whitney revamped the baths one more time. He recognized that there was still a few nickels to be made out of the old place, and that he would be the perfect place for him to display all of his personal collections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Antique carriages, historic photographs, pinball machines and other novelties that can now be found in the Musee Mecanique started out at Sutros.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>Much of what was in Sutro still exists. It’s just moved all over the world now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Sutros finally closed for good in the 1960s. A \u003cem>San Francisco Examiner\u003c/em> article marks the occasion:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice over reading newspaper excerpt: \u003c/b>The second half of the 20th century at last caught up with an old San Francisco legend. Sutro Baths, created 70 years ago, closed forever.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>The Whitney family sold the Sutro Bath property to a developer who planned to build condominiums on the site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>Demolition began in early June of 1966. And on June 26, 1966, a very convenient fire broke out that, in one long afternoon, destroyed the building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Police suspected arson but could never prove it. In any case, the fire destroyed the building much faster than work crews ever could. People from the neighborhood came out to watch as the iconic white pavilion burned to the ground. Sutros creation up in smoke.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sounds of waves, birds singing, the crunching of footsteps\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Honestly, I can almost imagine what it looked like to Sutro when he came here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene):\u003c/b> Yeah?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Yeah, like, with the beach out past the retaining wall and the big rock out there, you can almost imagine him, like, walking on the beach. More than 100 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene):\u003c/b> I mean, I can definitely understand how somebody would see this. And if you had the money to buy it, think this must be mine! Once you kind of get down closer to the baths, as you look up, you can really get a sense of where the rest of the building used to be. If you look up at the hillside that’s kind of underneath the Cliff house, there’s a number of just like slabs of concrete that probably indicate different levels of what was once here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Clearly man-made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>Yeah. All right. So we’ve made it down to the ruins, and we’re standing on the retaining wall. That really is a wall between two worlds. On one side, we have the wild Pacific battering the coastline. And on the other side of the wall, the world that Sutro built, which these days looks more like a home for the birds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Yeah, this may be a swimming hole for the birds now, but standing here on the wall, you could almost imagine diving in, back in the 1920s, in your really heavy bathing suit, with a slide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>And how majestic it would have been to be able to swim and also look at the ocean at the same time. But it was a complicated story. This wasn’t an amazing space for everyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Right. It’s got a nostalgic element to it for some people, a lot of happy memories. But for other people, this place is a symbol of pain and rejection.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>Now I can’t help but notice. But there are not condominiums here, as was once the plan. What happened with that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Well, so after the fire, the property kind of just languished for about a decade. Then, the National Park Service bought it, and they turned it into open space. And they asked San Franciscans what they wanted done with the new park. And people basically said they wanted to leave it as it was — ruins. Something that they could explore on their own terms, not interpreted with any park signs or pathways or anything like that. Just a place you could explore, which is what we’re doing right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>In a way, that’s really the most perfect ending for this story, because it’s still an attraction people come to for its beauty, for the experience of being here. But now it’s a truly public space that’s free and open for everyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode of Bay Curious was made by…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Katrina Schwartz\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>Our engineer, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Ellen Price. Extra special thanks to our field recording team this week…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli (in scene):\u003c/b> Tamuna Chkareuli\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lusen Mendel (in scene):\u003c/b> Lusen Mendel\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene):\u003c/b> Katrina Schwartz\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene):\u003c/b> And me, Olivia Allen-Price. We had a blast at Sutro Baths. If you haven’t been, go check it out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Lots of folks to thank this week, including the San Francisco Historical Society, for letting us use John Martini’s presentation. The people behind this podcast include:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jen Chien:\u003c/b> Jen Chien\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cesar Saldaña:\u003c/b> Cesar Saldaña\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Sprenger:\u003c/b> Katie Sprenger\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maha Sanad:\u003c/b> Maha Sanad\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Holly Kernan:\u003c/b> Holly Kernan\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Crowd:\u003c/b> And the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> This story first appeared in the Bay Curious Book, which has just celebrated its one-year birthday of being out in the world. To celebrate, we’ve got a sweet deal for listeners of this podcast for the month of May. You can buy the e-book for $1.99. I mean, that’s almost free, right? We’ll pop some links in our show notes on how you can get that deal, or you can always drop by your local bookstore and pick up the beautiful, colorful paperback copy. Whichever you choose, we love you for it. Thanks. Have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"excerpt": "On San Francisco’s far western edge, Sutro Baths was once one of the city’s hottest destinations. But it was also the site of a little-known civil rights battle.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Standing at the Lands’ End parking lot, overlooking the ruins of Sutro Baths, it feels like the edge of the world. To the left, Point Lobos Road winds down towards the straight stretch of Ocean Beach, past the Cliff House restaurant perched atop an overlook. And out in front is the wild Pacific Ocean, crashing against a man-made seawall stretching across the bottom of the cove. A faint outline of square pools can still be seen, but it looks more like a playland for the ducks and cormorants than a place humans would want to swim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s hard to tell now, but Sutro Baths was \u003ci>the place to be\u003c/i> at the turn of the 19th century. Seven massive baths were built into the cove, each filled with seawater and heated to different temperatures. A beautiful glass pavilion covered the pools to shield swimmers from the wind and fog. So, what happened to the grand establishment? How did it go from a glittering bathing palace to wild ruins?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To understand the history of Sutro Baths, we first need to learn about the man for whom they are named — Adolph Sutro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985364\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985364\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut.jpg\" alt=\"A black cormorant spreads its wings on the remnants of a wall. The ocean crashes in the distance.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Seagulls, cormorants and ducks have made the remnants of the Sutro Baths their home now. The ruins are a beautiful place to explore and imagine what once stood here. \u003ccite>(Tamuna Chkareuli/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>A self-made man\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Born in 1830, Adolph Sutro was a German Jewish immigrant to San Francisco. He arrived in 1850, at the height of the Gold Rush, and set up a shop selling dry goods — mostly tobacco. When news of a silver deposit in Nevada hit the newspapers, he dropped everything and headed out to work on the Comstock Lode. First, he ran a refining mill but kept thinking about one of mining’s biggest problems — surface water. It would seep down from above, sometimes drowning miners deep below the earth’s surface.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985371\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 394px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985371\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/adolph-sutro-cropped.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white portrait of a white man with white hair and mutton chops whiskers.\" width=\"394\" height=\"444\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/adolph-sutro-cropped.jpg 394w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/adolph-sutro-cropped-160x180.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 394px) 100vw, 394px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Adolph Sutro, 1830–98. He served as mayor of San Francisco from 1895–97. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A143030?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=50b41f01b154203e6a0f&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=0\">San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Sutro’s solution was to build a big tunnel that would carry water away from workers, making the conditions much safer. He opened his Sutro Tunnel in 1878 to much acclaim. Not only did it make mining safer, but it also offered an easier way to extract the silver ore and offered another escape route for miners in an emergency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He was able to eventually patent this and became kind of a mythical figure among the silver miners in that part of Nevada,” said Hector Falero, a former education manager for the Golden Gate National Recreation Area, \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/goga/learn/historyculture/upload/sutro_history.pdf\">the National Park that manages the Sutro Baths site now\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sutro returned to San Francisco a rich man and began investing in real estate. He loved the “Outside Lands” at the far western edge of the city, \u003ca href=\"https://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=How_Many_Cliff_Houses%3F\">near the Cliff House\u003c/a>, and bought close to 22 acres of oceanfront property overlooking a nearby cove. He built his mansion there at Sutro Heights and began planning for a grand attraction in the cove itself. Just a few years later, he also bought the Cliff House and started planning to redesign it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985365\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1423px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985365\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutros-cliff-house.png\" alt=\"Black and white photo of a massive Victorian-era structure perched on a cliff overlooking the ocean.\" width=\"1423\" height=\"557\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutros-cliff-house.png 1423w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutros-cliff-house-800x313.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutros-cliff-house-1020x399.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutros-cliff-house-160x63.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1423px) 100vw, 1423px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">After purchasing the Cliff House, Sutro rebuilt it in grand style. Soon after it opened, a fire destroyed it. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A129779?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=6afb3a4aaad152445a8c&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=5\">San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Building Sutro Baths\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before Sutro got hold of it, the cove below the Cliff House was a quiet little beach surrounded by steep cliffs. Sutro was fascinated by marine life and loved watching sea lions play on the rocks. Legend has it, that’s what gave him the idea of creating an aquarium in the cove. He first built a circular pool on the northwest end that would be filled by seawater rushing in from a large tunnel he bore through the rock. He planned to fill the aquarium pool with ocean water and sea creatures — like a man-made tidepool — and then, as the water gradually seeped through a drainage canal he built, the sea creatures would be left behind and easy to view.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The tunnel and pool worked so well that Sutro kept building. He refocused his efforts on building an attraction for saltwater swimming, which was booming in popularity. The round aquarium pool became a settling tank, a place for any sediment from the ocean water to separate out. He added a seawall to protect the cove from the waves and built a massive swimming pool across the entire cove. It was subdivided into seven pools, each holding water of a different temperature. Cold seawater would rush through the tunnel, past a boiler house where it would mix with very hot water, and then stream down through the various pools, getting cooler as it went. The largest pool was the coldest — the temperature of the sea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985373\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 700px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985373\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-interior-baths-OpenSF.jpg\" alt=\"Huge glass and steel structure covers a bathing facility with seven pools.\" width=\"700\" height=\"549\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-interior-baths-OpenSF.jpg 700w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-interior-baths-OpenSF-160x125.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Inside Sutro Baths circa 1910 looking north towards the promenade. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://opensfhistory.org/Display/wnp4/wnp4.0211.jpg\">OpenSFHistory / wnp4/wnp4.0211\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A prospectus from the San Francisco-based Floating Sea-Bath Company touted the positive effects of seawater bathing:\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>\u003ci>Pleasure is an essential item of the real bath, and among the most active of its beneficial forces. There can be no doubt that a great number of our citizens would seek to enjoy the tonic effects of sea bathing, but for the low temperatures of the water.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>Sutro solved that problem. And he didn’t stop there. He built a massive pavilion over the baths to protect swimmers from cold sea air and fog. Made of iron girders, wood and glass, it was a giant white building with a 3-acre footprint. Visitors entered from above, off Point Lobos Avenue, and descended a grand stairway to the baths below.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sutro Baths wasn’t just a swimming facility — it was a place to be seen. There were several levels to stop and promenade, restaurants, bars, and a museum of curios Sutro had collected while traveling all over the world, including some rare mummies. For 25 cents, visitors could enter the baths, rent a bathing suit and towel, use the changing rooms and swim all day.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/8o4JS0d_qyY'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/8o4JS0d_qyY'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>Sutro knew getting people out to his new attraction would be challenging since the neighborhoods near Golden Gate Park were not built up yet, and most people lived much further east. So, he waged war with the railroad companies to keep the streetcar fares low, enabling the average working person to afford a visit to the baths. This egalitarian fight won him a lot of goodwill with San Franciscans, who eventually elected him mayor in 1895. For a while, there was even a train that went along the cliff at Lands’ End, offering spectacular views of the Bay.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/9qgapRWmiUY'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/9qgapRWmiUY'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003ch3>\u003cb>Sutro Baths officially open in 1896\u003c/b>\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>After more than a decade of construction, the baths officially opened in 1896. They were an immediate hit. The space was big enough for an orchestra to play, and Sutro regularly hosted large events at the baths. There were competitions, concerts and diving displays.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985382\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1423px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985382\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/aerial-view-sutros-history-center.png\" alt=\"Black and white aerial view of the massive Sutro Baths pavilion.\" width=\"1423\" height=\"557\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/aerial-view-sutros-history-center.png 1423w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/aerial-view-sutros-history-center-800x313.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/aerial-view-sutros-history-center-1020x399.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/aerial-view-sutros-history-center-160x63.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1423px) 100vw, 1423px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An aerial view shows just how massive the baths and pavilion were when finished. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A130128?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=950123d10c91ec349686&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=2&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=8\">San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Site of an early civil rights lawsuit\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Sutro Baths advertised itself as a place for \u003ci>all San Franciscans\u003c/i> to enjoy the salubrious effects of sea bathing, but that wasn’t actually true.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On July 4, 1897, just a few months after the baths officially opened, John Harris, an African American waiter, paid to enter the baths with a group of his white friends. He was told he was not allowed to swim because of the color of his skin. A week later, he tried again and was once again rebuffed. So, he sued the Sutro family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“To challenge the former mayor of San Francisco really took a lot of chutzpah, bravado,” said historian and writer Elaine Elinson. \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/goga/learn/historyculture/john-harris-civil-rights.htm\">She researched John Harris’ story for the National Park Service. \u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just a year before, \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/goga/learn/historyculture/john-harris-civil-rights.htm\">California passed the Dibble Civil Rights Act, the first of its kind in the state\u003c/a>, which made it illegal to discriminate in public places based on race. Harris used the new law to challenge his treatment at Sutro Baths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985391\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 750px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985391\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/opensfhistory_wnp4_wnp4.0298.jpg\" alt=\"Large group of white swimmers in old fashioned swim suits.\" width=\"750\" height=\"601\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/opensfhistory_wnp4_wnp4.0298.jpg 750w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/opensfhistory_wnp4_wnp4.0298-160x128.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 750px) 100vw, 750px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A crowd of all-white swimmers at Sutro Baths, circa 1910. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://opensfhistory.org/Display/wnp4/wnp4.0298.jpg\">OpenSFHistory / wnp4/wnp4.0298\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A group of Black activists, known as the African American Assembly, supported Harris’ suit by paying his legal fees. They hoped this early test of the new civil rights law would give it teeth.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>A deeper history of Black activism in California\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Dibble Civil Rights Act was the result of many years of organizing by California’s Black residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of the people who ended up as civic leaders or church leaders were already highly experienced and skilled in the abolitionist movement,” said Susan Anderson, the history curator at the \u003ca href=\"https://caamuseum.org/\">African American Museum in Los Angeles\u003c/a>. She’s writing a book about how Black Californians have influenced civic culture and institutions going back to before statehood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was significant to Black people to have their rights enshrined,” Anderson said. “They worked together to influence Assembly Member [Henry Clay] Dibble to sponsor the Dibble Act, California’s first civil rights act, in 1896.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s likely Black activists wrote the law, Anderson said and lobbied other legislators to pass it. At a time when racist attitudes and policies limited Black Californians to only the most menial jobs — porters, waiters, clerks — this was a tremendous feat. Black people used the connections they made through these serving jobs to push the causes important to them, Anderson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8581019303&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So if you’re a porter or clerk in a court, and you’re an activist, you find comrades and allies and people you can network with who are powerful for your cause,” Anderson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She points out that the African American organizations of the time were very organized. Members across California met once a year to set their agenda, and then local chapters worked to implement them. Before California even became a state, they worked on issues like the right to vote, the right to testify in court, equal access to education and, of course, anti-discrimination laws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the Dibble Civil Rights Law passed in 1896, local groups, like the African American Assembly Club in San Francisco, started testing the law. That’s what John Harris did at Sutro Baths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“John Harris won his case, but he only earned $100 for the two times he was refused entrance to the baths,” said Elaine Elinson. “So it wasn’t a monetary victory, but it was a very, very important civil rights victory.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite this historic victory, very little changed at Sutro Baths. \u003ca href=\"http://www.outsidelands.org/sutro-baths-segregation.php\">It remained segregated in practice, if not by law\u003c/a>, until the Civil Rights era of the 1950s and ‘60s. There are cases of other non-white San Franciscans being denied entry, too, including members of the city’s large Chinese American community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is interesting to see that these cases [were] challenged and won, but often did not change public attitudes or public policy,” Elinson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Sutro Baths’ slow decline\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985394\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1423px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985394\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/inside-sutros-tropical-history-center.png\" alt=\"Black and white photo of cabanas with straw roofs inside a large glass pavilion.\" width=\"1423\" height=\"557\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/inside-sutros-tropical-history-center.png 1423w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/inside-sutros-tropical-history-center-800x313.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/inside-sutros-tropical-history-center-1020x399.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/inside-sutros-tropical-history-center-160x63.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1423px) 100vw, 1423px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Sutro family revamped the interior of the baths several times, including this tropical version circa 1935. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A130193?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=5c559fc2d23fe6107f55&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=5\">San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Adolph Sutro died just a few years after the baths officially opened in 1898. He was 68 years old and left Sutro Baths to his children. They continued to operate the site, even though it didn’t make much money. Sutro had sunk a lot of cash into constructing the grand facility, costing a fortune to run.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the 1930s, when the Great Depression hit, many San Franciscans didn’t have the money for a leisure day out, and the baths began to fall into disrepair. Adolph Sutro’s grandson tried revamping the business in 1936 by covering some of the pools and building an ice skating rink. That was a popular move but it didn’t do enough to save the business. Eventually, in 1952, the Sutros announced they would close the facility. That’s when one of their competitors — George Whitney — swooped in and bought it for a bargain.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/JklqpaDdYX0'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/JklqpaDdYX0'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Whitney owned \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11925112/idora-park-and-playland-at-the-beach-bay-area-amusement-parks-of-a-bygone-era\">Playland-at-the-Beach, a popular amusement park on Ocean Beach\u003c/a>. He thought he could squeeze a little more money out of Sutros and use the space to house his collection of mechanical oddities. But his family couldn’t make a go of it either and ended up selling the property to a developer who planned to build condominiums on the site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sutros finally closed for good in 1966. Just a few months later, a fire burned the grand structure to the ground. People from the neighborhood came out and watched the iconic building burn. The police suspected arson but could never prove it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985395\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1423px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985395\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-fire-history-center.png\" alt=\"Smoke billows from the skeleton of a building built on a cliff overlooking the ocean.\" width=\"1423\" height=\"557\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-fire-history-center.png 1423w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-fire-history-center-800x313.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-fire-history-center-1020x399.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-fire-history-center-160x63.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1423px) 100vw, 1423px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Sutro Baths pavilion burned to the ground in 1966. Neighbors came out to watch the iconic building burn. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A130156?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=2fad4a0f6ccdbd8148f8&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=6&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=14\">San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>About a decade later, the National Park Service bought the property for open space. The community didn’t want the park to build interpretive services at the site of the old baths, instead preferring its current state — a set of ruins that hearken back to a grand past but that are free and open for all to explore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sounds of birds, distant waves crashing, people talking, wind\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene):\u003c/b> Wow. Okay, so I’ve been to this place a few times, but never on a day quite like today. It is a stunner out here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene):\u003c/b> Beautiful weather, perfect May day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>Hey, everyone. Olivia Allen-Price here with Katrina Schwartz, producer extraordinaire of Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Hello.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>And we are at Sutro Baths. So right at the entrance of Land’s End, the hiking trail, if you’ve done that. We’re looking at the Cliff House to our left, a long-time-running restaurant, currently not running, but hopefully will come back again soon. But down in this cove is really why we are here. There is something pretty interesting down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>It looks like a massive pool, except the edges of it are more like a pond with moss growing and ducks and seagulls. People are walking out on that retaining wall, but it has this air of mystery because you can tell something was once here, but now nature is reclaiming it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Today on Bay Curious, we’re going on a field trip to a spot many of you have been requesting over the years! We’ll learn why and how Sutro Baths were built, what visiting would have felt like back in the day, and while researching this story, we stumbled upon a lesser known piece of civil rights history — so we’ll be sharing that. This story first appeared in the Bay Curious book — available now wherever books are sold. We’re diving in — literally — just ahead on Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> San Francisco has a lot of historic places, many of which have been rebuilt or repurposed in modern ways. But the ruins of Sutro Baths remain wild and untouched. Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz brings us the story of the rise and fall of this iconic bathing palace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> To understand why these somewhat sparse ruins have captivated the imaginations of locals and visitors alike, we need to learn a bit more about the man behind them. Adolph Sutro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>He was born in Germany in 1830 to a Jewish family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Hector Falero is a former education manager for the Golden Gate Recreation Area — the National Park that manages the Sutro Baths site now. He says Sutro arrived in San Francisco as a young man in 1850, right as the Gold Rush was kicking off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>He’s living in San Francisco and mostly selling tobacco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Many of his customers were miners, and he learned as much as he could about the business. When news of a massive silver discovery in Nevada hit the papers, he decided to join the fray and try to make his fortune on the Comstock Lode. He first opened a refining mill, but he’d long been thinking about one of mining’s biggest problems — surface water. It would seep down, sometimes drowning miners. Adolph Sutro’s solution was to build a huge tunnel deep in the mine that ran downhill and carried water away from the workmen. The Sutro Tunnel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>He was able to eventually patent this and became kind of like a mythical figure among the silver miners in that part of Nevada.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Sutro made millions on his invention. He returned to San Francisco a rich man and began investing in real estate. He especially liked the wind-swept “Outside Lands” near the Pacific Ocean. Not many people lived out there yet, but Sutro wanted to change that. In 1881, he bought 22 acres of oceanfront property overlooking the Cliff House, which was already operating as an inn and restaurant. Sutro would buy the Cliff House just a few years later and incorporate it into his grand vision for the area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>Where he saw a gap was in bathing or swimming.\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>In the late 1800s, most people lived crowded into boarding houses and rented rooms in downtown San Francisco. Saltwater swimming was all the rage, a welcome respite from these cramped interiors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>There was some sort of like concept of health associated with Pacific waters. But it’s very cold. And so the need that Adolfo Sutro saw was, hey, I would love to create some baths and I would love to create them to be sort of temperature controlled.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Sutro put his engineering brain to work designing a series of pools and tunnels that would harness the tides to create a swimming facility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first problem to solve was how to bring seawater into a protected pool away from crashing ocean waves. So, Sutro did what he did best. He built a massive tunnel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>The water would rush in at high tide and be able to fill the pools almost instantly. This was one of the technological aspects that was incredible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>He demonstrated the system to reporters nearly a decade \u003ci>before\u003c/i> the baths would officially open. An article in the \u003cem>San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em> reads:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice-over reads newspaper clipping: \u003c/b>At great expense, a tunnel was excavated, 8 feet high and 15 feet long, through the solid rock. It is through this tunnel that the water comes at extreme high tide and for about two hours before and after.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Over the next many years, Sutro transformed this quiet cove into a massive engineering project. He built a seawall across the entire span to keep the waves out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>He lined most of the cove with concrete.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>John Martini is the author of \u003ci>Sutro’s Glass Palace: The Story of Sutro Baths.\u003c/i> He presented his research to the San Francisco Historical Society.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>So he literally subdivided the cove into what he called swimming tanks. We’d call ‘em pools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>There were seven pools in all. Seawater would rush in through the tunnel and mix with extremely hot water coming out of a boiler house. Then, the rush of water would flow into the pools, each a different temperature.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>The warmest pool was about 85, 86 degrees, maybe up to 90. And then they were sequentially cooler until the biggest pool that was ocean temperature. They didn’t bother to heat it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>But that’s not all. Anyone who’s been out to Lands End knows how cold and windy it can be, so Sutro decided to build a huge glass pavilion to cover the pools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>So, instead of an open-air swimming establishment, you ended up with the world’s largest indoor swimming complex.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>When it was finished, the baths had a footprint of 3 acres, about the same size as the ferry building — 10,000 people could pack inside.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>People entered, and they descended a flight of stairs. The first level that you hit is called a promenade level, and the promenade level is where a lot of the museum displays were. You walked under a giant vestibule and then down a grand staircase that led you all the way down to the water on either side.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>After more than a decade of construction, the baths formally opened in 1896. The \u003cem>San Francisco Examiner\u003c/em> described the event.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice over reading newspaper excerpt: \u003c/b>Nearly 7,000 people gathered at the immense pavilion yesterday to witness the dedication of the magnificent structure, which Adolph Sutro has built on his land near the ocean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>There were restaurants and bars, curiosities from around the world — like mummies and a stuffed polar — space for a large band to play, an amphitheater and lots of areas to promenade. It was a place to be seen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>Those were colored panes of glass in the domes overhead so that sunlight gave multicolored, rippling effects on the water, especially when thousands and thousands of people at a time, making waves in the water, kids screams, music playing. It was an overwhelming sensation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Sutro wanted the working classes to be able to enjoy a day at his leisure palace. … and to spend their money there. … so he pushed the railroads to keep the streetcar fares to Outside Lands low.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: He had this sort of egalitarian slant.\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Hector Falero says his populist streak made him popular with the people. They even elected him mayor!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero:\u003c/b> He wanted people Of various class backgrounds to be able to access the place equitably.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>For 25 cents, visitors could rent a bathing suit, use the lockers, visit the attractions, swim and stay all day. Advertising campaigns at the time said Sutro Baths welcomed ALL San Franciscans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But that wasn’t actually true.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Somber music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>One day, a group of friends took the streetcar from downtown out to enjoy a day at the new attraction. It was the fourth of July 1897, just a few months after the baths officially opened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Ellnson: \u003c/b>John Harris, who is an African American man, went with his several white friends to the baths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Writer and historian Elaine Elinson researched this history for the National Park Service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Elinson: \u003c/b>He was a waiter in San Francisco, and he paid his $0.25. And his white friends got their bathing suits and went in the pools. And he was told he could not go into the pools. Only his white friends could go into the pools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> John Harris tried to enter the baths again a week later. Again, he was not allowed to swim because of the color of his skin. So, he sued the Sutro family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Elinson: \u003c/b>To challenge the former mayor of San Francisco really took a lot of chutzpah, bravado.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>John Harris used a new California law called The Dibble Civil Rights Act to challenge his treatment at the baths. The law prohibited discrimination in public places based on race.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan Anderson: \u003c/b>That all came out of black California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Susan Anderson is the history curator for the California African American Museum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan Anderson: \u003c/b>It was significant to black people to have their rights enshrined. They worked together to influence Assembly Member Dibble to sponsor the Dibble Act, California’s first civil rights act, in 1896.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Many Black migrants to California were already skilled leaders in the abolitionist movement. Racist policies and attitudes limited them to low-paying jobs — hotel waiters, railroad porters, clerks — but through their work, they got to know powerful men like Dibble.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan Anderson: \u003c/b>Enterprising people make the most of it. So, if you’re a porter or clerk in a court. And you’re an activist; you find comrades and allies and people you can network with people who are powerful for your cause.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Black activists likely \u003ci>wrote\u003c/i> the Dibble Civil Rights Act and lobbied other legislators to pass it. Then, local groups like the African American Assembly in San Francisco tested the law, trying to give it teeth. That’s what John Harris did at Sutro Baths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Elinson: \u003c/b>We don’t have any exact testimony from John Harris himself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Historian Elaine Elinson again. She says the court records burned in the 1906 fire. And mainstream newspapers of the day didn’t bother interviewing the central figure in the case, John Harris himself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Ellinson: \u003c/b>I have to say that the mainstream press was really vitriolic against John Harris and the judge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Elaine pieced together her account from lawyers’ notes, newspaper articles and personal letters. She says the African American Assembly paid Harris’ legal fees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Elinson: \u003c/b>John Harris won his case, but, you know, he only earned $100 for the two times he was refused entrance to the baths. So it wasn’t a monetary victory, but it was a very, very important civil rights victory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>The Sutro family and Bath managers were unrepentant. They continued to make racist remarks that the mainstream newspapers published.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Elinson: \u003c/b>It is interesting to see that these cases challenged and won but often did not change public attitudes or public policy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Two years after Sutro Baths opened, Adolph Sutro died. He was 68. He left his estate and properties to his children, who continued to run the baths. And the attraction remained incredibly popular, but the Sutro family was ready to unload the property.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>They kept trying to sell it. No one wanted to buy it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>John Martini says Sutro sunk a lot of cash into constructing the baths, and they cost a fortune to run. His children wanted to recoup that investment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>In 1913, the family tried to get the city to buy it. No dice. The city turned it down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Then, in the ’30s, the Great Depression hit. Many San Franciscans didn’t have money for a leisure day at the baths, and slowly, the facilities began to fall into disrepair. Adolph Sutro’s grandson was in charge at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>He decided to rebuild part of the baths and turn it into an indoor ice skating rink, and it opened in 1936 and it was immensely popular. Immediately popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>John Martini remembers going there as a kid in the 1950s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>The ice rink was actually quite dark inside. It turned out that all that great glass. It tended to melt the ice. So, they intentionally blanked out the glass roof over the ice skating rink.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>In 1952, the Sutro family announced they were closing the facility. It just cost too much to run. That’s when one of their competitors, George Whitney, swooped in and bought it for a bargain. Whitney owned Playland-at-the-Beach, the popular amusement park on Ocean Beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>George Whitney revamped the baths one more time. He recognized that there was still a few nickels to be made out of the old place, and that he would be the perfect place for him to display all of his personal collections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Antique carriages, historic photographs, pinball machines and other novelties that can now be found in the Musee Mecanique started out at Sutros.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>Much of what was in Sutro still exists. It’s just moved all over the world now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Sutros finally closed for good in the 1960s. A \u003cem>San Francisco Examiner\u003c/em> article marks the occasion:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice over reading newspaper excerpt: \u003c/b>The second half of the 20th century at last caught up with an old San Francisco legend. Sutro Baths, created 70 years ago, closed forever.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>The Whitney family sold the Sutro Bath property to a developer who planned to build condominiums on the site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>Demolition began in early June of 1966. And on June 26, 1966, a very convenient fire broke out that, in one long afternoon, destroyed the building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Police suspected arson but could never prove it. In any case, the fire destroyed the building much faster than work crews ever could. People from the neighborhood came out to watch as the iconic white pavilion burned to the ground. Sutros creation up in smoke.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sounds of waves, birds singing, the crunching of footsteps\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Honestly, I can almost imagine what it looked like to Sutro when he came here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene):\u003c/b> Yeah?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Yeah, like, with the beach out past the retaining wall and the big rock out there, you can almost imagine him, like, walking on the beach. More than 100 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene):\u003c/b> I mean, I can definitely understand how somebody would see this. And if you had the money to buy it, think this must be mine! Once you kind of get down closer to the baths, as you look up, you can really get a sense of where the rest of the building used to be. If you look up at the hillside that’s kind of underneath the Cliff house, there’s a number of just like slabs of concrete that probably indicate different levels of what was once here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Clearly man-made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>Yeah. All right. So we’ve made it down to the ruins, and we’re standing on the retaining wall. That really is a wall between two worlds. On one side, we have the wild Pacific battering the coastline. And on the other side of the wall, the world that Sutro built, which these days looks more like a home for the birds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Yeah, this may be a swimming hole for the birds now, but standing here on the wall, you could almost imagine diving in, back in the 1920s, in your really heavy bathing suit, with a slide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>And how majestic it would have been to be able to swim and also look at the ocean at the same time. But it was a complicated story. This wasn’t an amazing space for everyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Right. It’s got a nostalgic element to it for some people, a lot of happy memories. But for other people, this place is a symbol of pain and rejection.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>Now I can’t help but notice. But there are not condominiums here, as was once the plan. What happened with that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Well, so after the fire, the property kind of just languished for about a decade. Then, the National Park Service bought it, and they turned it into open space. And they asked San Franciscans what they wanted done with the new park. And people basically said they wanted to leave it as it was — ruins. Something that they could explore on their own terms, not interpreted with any park signs or pathways or anything like that. Just a place you could explore, which is what we’re doing right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>In a way, that’s really the most perfect ending for this story, because it’s still an attraction people come to for its beauty, for the experience of being here. But now it’s a truly public space that’s free and open for everyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode of Bay Curious was made by…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Katrina Schwartz\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>Our engineer, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Ellen Price. Extra special thanks to our field recording team this week…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli (in scene):\u003c/b> Tamuna Chkareuli\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lusen Mendel (in scene):\u003c/b> Lusen Mendel\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene):\u003c/b> Katrina Schwartz\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene):\u003c/b> And me, Olivia Allen-Price. We had a blast at Sutro Baths. If you haven’t been, go check it out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Lots of folks to thank this week, including the San Francisco Historical Society, for letting us use John Martini’s presentation. The people behind this podcast include:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jen Chien:\u003c/b> Jen Chien\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cesar Saldaña:\u003c/b> Cesar Saldaña\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Sprenger:\u003c/b> Katie Sprenger\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maha Sanad:\u003c/b> Maha Sanad\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Holly Kernan:\u003c/b> Holly Kernan\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Crowd:\u003c/b> And the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> This story first appeared in the Bay Curious Book, which has just celebrated its one-year birthday of being out in the world. To celebrate, we’ve got a sweet deal for listeners of this podcast for the month of May. You can buy the e-book for $1.99. I mean, that’s almost free, right? We’ll pop some links in our show notes on how you can get that deal, or you can always drop by your local bookstore and pick up the beautiful, colorful paperback copy. Whichever you choose, we love you for it. Thanks. Have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Tunnels Under San Francisco? Inside the Dark, Dangerous World of the Sewers",
"headTitle": "Tunnels Under San Francisco? Inside the Dark, Dangerous World of the Sewers | KQED",
"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a>, we’ve received a \u003cem>lot\u003c/em> of questions about tunnels under San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Listeners have told us they’ve heard stories of secret passageways running under the city. They’ve asked us, what is the truth about them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first thing I should tell you is: They’re absolutely real.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>\u003cstrong>What Lies Beneath?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>The myth of the underground — a silent world hidden under our feet — is an endlessly alluring one. There are, after all, very \u003cem>real\u003c/em> labyrinths under major world cities. Like the infamous \u003ca href=\"http://catacombes.paris.fr/en\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">catacombs of Paris\u003c/a>, lined with the bones of the city’s dead, or the \u003ca href=\"https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/odessa-catacombs\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">terrifying catacombs under Odesa\u003c/a> in Ukraine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some people get so obsessed with the idea of tunnels that they search for underground adventures themselves. They call themselves “urban explorers.” If you hit Google looking for information on San Francisco’s particular underground, there’s a name that comes up again and again — an explorer named \u003ca href=\"http://www.sierrahartman.com/sf-underground\">Sierra Hartman\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782642\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 700px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782642 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/Sierra-1.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"700\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/Sierra-1.png 700w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/Sierra-1-160x103.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Somewhere under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sierra Hartman)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A photographer and writer, Hartman’s haunting photographs of shadowy spaces under S.F. are, for many people, their first clue that this particular world of tunnels really does exist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think it’s just ingrained in human nature, you know?” Hartman says of the drive to venture below. “You wonder what’s down there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hartman lives in Tacoma, Washington, but grew up in Southern California. It was roaming around on his bike as a kid with friends, Goonies-style, that he discovered the dark urban waterways in his hometown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You take a 12-year-old kid and show them an entrance of a tunnel? Like, they’re \u003cem>going\u003c/em> to go in,” Hartman says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782644\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 700px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782644 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_v96zDttNjTR0Bhsu_.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"700\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_v96zDttNjTR0Bhsu_.png 700w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_v96zDttNjTR0Bhsu_-160x103.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Somewhere under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sierra Hartman)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Arriving in San Francisco later in life, he began exploring the city’s streets at night with his camera. One of those nights, a chance encounter with a manhole left open led him beneath the San Francisco for the first time — and sparked an adult passion for urban exploration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Across the sleeping city, Hartman found entrances to dark, dripping tunnels, sloshing wet, that stretched for miles into the blackness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So much of it is just overgrown,” he says of those doorways. “You don’t \u003cem>realize\u003c/em> that there is a whole underground part of this thing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like many urban explorers, Hartman says, he enjoyed the thrill of the hunt almost as much as the actual discovery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Like solving a puzzle,” he says. “It’s as much about solving the mystery and finding the thing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782645\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 700px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782645 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_bKc1L_JmfVh4mTQZ_.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"700\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_bKc1L_JmfVh4mTQZ_.png 700w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_bKc1L_JmfVh4mTQZ_-160x103.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Somewhere under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sierra Hartman)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>He used a mixture of publicly available records and maps, Google Earth, and whispers from fellow urban explorers, who are notoriously secretive about their finds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At least some of that is due to the risks of their enterprise. Bodily dangers aside, urban exploration represents “at best a gray area of legality in some places, and outright trespassing in other places,” as Hartman puts it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This is the part where I tell you that this underground network Hartman risked bodily harm to venture into is no mysterious labyrinth built by shadowy figures.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s San Francisco’s huge sewer network.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>\u003cstrong>A Complex World You Don’t See\u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>“I crawl through a lot of sewer pipes. That’s basically my job,” says Megan Abadie, an assistant engineer for the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission wastewater enterprise. Her job sees her enter those same tunnels — legally — to make sure that this giant, intricate system filled with your waste keeps working the way it’s meant to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782900\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782900 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-1200x800.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in her office at San Francisco’s Public Utilities Commission. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>There are a lot of misconceptions about the sewers, Abadie says. For one, what we surface-dwellers call “tunnels” aren’t truly tunnels — a term that specifically means a long run of pipe bored out of the earth with only a few manholes attached. When we talk of the “tunnels under San Francisco,” we’re usually talking, in fact, about sewer mains.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco is 49 square miles but has over 1,000 miles of sewer mains under every block. What makes our system unique in California is the fact that it’s a combined system. Instead of stormwater and sewage water being separated into different pipes, as they are elsewhere in the state, in San Francisco, it all flows into the same set of pipes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782624\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782624 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-800x450.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut.jpg 1885w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie, deep in the San Francisco sewers. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>This is a legacy of the city’s relative age, with the foundations of our modern-day sewers being laid during the Gold Rush — in what Abadie describes as “a very ad hoc system … people would build pipes to just connect to the nearest creek.” There are still some pipes under your feet that date from the 1840s, she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just like in New York — another old, dense city — it was too hard to rip up San Francisco’s sewer network to replace the old system with secondary pipes. So we’ve repaired and adapted our old system, which is why this city still has those big, wide sewer mains … that people can’t seem to stay out of.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>A Lethal Labyrinth\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>“There’s a lot of things that can happen in the sewer that can actually kill you pretty easily,” Abadie reminds me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For one thing, there’s the risk of drowning down there. Because of San Francisco’s steep topography, Abadie and her colleagues never enter the sewers if there’s so much as a drizzle of rain anywhere in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782637\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782637 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in the sewers of San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“If you’re in a large pipe at the bottom of a hill, it doesn’t take much for a big slug of water to hit you, even if it’s not raining very much where you are,” she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, there’s the danger of toxic gas, namely hydrogen sulfide, produced when organic material (waste matter, seaweed) starts to decompose. At low levels, it has a distinctive smell of rotten eggs. At higher levels, it affects a person’s sense of smell entirely and can knock you out — and kill you — within minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782625\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782625 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in the San Francisco sewers. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>On top of \u003cem>that\u003c/em>, there’s the threat of simply getting lost, injured or both in the sewers. Abadie and her fellow inspectors are equipped with accurate maps and supported by a large chain of people both below and above ground — weather spotters, medics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I go into the sewer system, I know exactly where I am. … You go into a pipe that you see sticking out somewhere? Open up a manhole? You’re not going to know where you are,” Abadie says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782638\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782638 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Stooping low in the sewers. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>After hearing this, I had \u003cem>zero\u003c/em> intention of exploring the sewers alone for this story. But I couldn’t resist asking Megan to take me down to see an underground place that Sierra Hartman had told me about.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>\u003cstrong>A Trip into the Underworld\u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>It looked more like a cave than a sewer, Hartman says. And I knew urban explorers like him would spend months, even years, trying to track down its precise location — because of how striking it looked and how it led right out to the Pacific Ocean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Abadie knew exactly the place Hartman meant and asked me to wait until the timing was just right when it’d be safe enough at low tide, with no chance of rain. That timing turned out to be very early in the morning on the Fourth of July, the lowest tide of the year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782626\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782626 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Reporter Carly Severn being lowered into the sewer system. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As Abadie’s crew secured a harness and waist-high waders to my body, she explained why we’d be taking gas meters and oxygen masks down there. Even though the fast flow of the system we’d be entering would lower the hydrogen sulfide risk, “you can go into a sewer that’s been fine every single time, and one year something can be different,” she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With safety equipment secured, we were lowered one by one into the tunnel by rope, down a tall, rusting ladder until we finally reached the bottom of the sewer with a splash. The water reached our knees. Ahead, through the humid, misty air, was a long, high tunnel that seemed to stretch for miles in front of us. Down there in the darkness was that “sewer cave” — and the ocean. During the rainy season, Abadie reminded me that the tunnel we stood in would have been full of water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782631\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1851px\">\u003ca href=\"manho\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782631 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1851\" height=\"1056\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut.jpg 1851w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-160x91.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-800x456.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-1020x582.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-1200x685.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1851px) 100vw, 1851px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Reporter Carly Severn is lowered down through a manhole. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Surprisingly, the sewers don’t smell how you might fear they would: the odor is agricultural, like a farmyard smell. Yet no matter how pleasant this surprise, wading through high sewer water in such humidity quickly becomes exhausting, like walking through deep snow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As we walked through the tunnel, our voices echoing off the walls, Abadie told me about her first entries into the sewers after she started working for the city in 2011. The underground network, she says, reminded her of the vast Mines of Moria in “The Lord of the Rings.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I thought it was really cool. I even thought it was cool seeing a little turd float by! I mean, that’s not something everyone gets to see,” she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782632\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1885px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782632 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1885\" height=\"1060\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut.jpg 1885w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1885px) 100vw, 1885px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Exploring deep under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As we got closer to what \u003cem>I’d\u003c/em> come to see — that cave — the crashing of the Pacific Ocean suddenly grew louder. Looming in front of us, there it was: What looked like the tall, wide mouth of a cave, deep under San Francisco, carved from dark, jutting rock and yawning into more blackness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This,” Abadie says with some pride, “is definitely the most scenic and beautiful combined sewer overflow in San Francisco.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782633\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"Sruti%20Mamidanna/KQED\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782633 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Carly Severn and Megan Abadie in the mouth of the ‘sewer cave.’\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Passing through the cave, we had to stoop to get through the last part of our journey, our helmets scraping the ceiling. We were now inside the discharge pipe: the way the system can safely get water out during heavy storms, while providing primary-level treatment, when the usual storage areas under the city are full to the brim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the end of the pipe, the waves we could hear crashing close suddenly became visible, as I found myself looking out at the ocean, framed by rock. After hours underground, it was now daylight out there. That entrance onto the water is, unthinkably, how some explorers try to get \u003cem>in\u003c/em> here via a tiny strip of beach that opens up only for a brief period of time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782636\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1846px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782636 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1846\" height=\"1038\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut.jpg 1846w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1846px) 100vw, 1846px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A glimpse of the Pacific Ocean. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As the tide started to rise, the waves started to crash further and further into the pipe toward us, and we knew it was time to go. As we moved back through the tunnel, the difference in smell was palpable: The people of San Francisco were waking up and were starting to use their bathrooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After being attached to the rope and hauled out of the darkness and up through the manhole again, I was suddenly out of the city’s underworld. Exhausted, after hours of trudging through sewer water, the call of the underground was only more apparent to me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So what could people do, I asked Abadie, if after hearing the truth about the darkness and danger down there, they \u003cem>still\u003c/em> couldn’t resist the lure of subterranean exploration?\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782640\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1891px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782640 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1891\" height=\"1064\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut.jpg 1891w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1891px) 100vw, 1891px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in the discharge pipe leading out to the ocean. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna )\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We have a lot of people retiring here. You can come work for us!” she says. “We will get you into sewers. It’ll be awesome. Your passion can actually get you \u003cem>paid\u003c/em> to explore sewers.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Or become a public radio reporter,” she added. “Those are two ways that you can get into sewers and not die.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story first published on Oct. 31, 2019 and was updated and republished on May 2, 2024. Special thanks to Evan Thompson with his assistance for this story.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Sounds of birds, dog barking]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Around us all the time is the city that we know. The same stretch of sidewalk we walk on every day, the bus stop on the corner, our favorite restaurants, our neighborhood parks. If you live anywhere long enough, you can think you’ve seen it all. But what if beneath the streets there was another world? A place that’s so close to you all the time, but you wouldn’t even recognize it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Bay Curious theme music starts] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hey everyone, Olivia Allen-Price here. Over the years we’ve been running Bay Curious, we’ve received a bunch of questions about tunnels. Listeners who say they’ve heard stories of secret passageways running under San Francisco. \u003c/span>We aired an episode on the topic in 2019, but your questions have kept on coming … So today we’re going to revisit it, and answer the question do these tunnels exist?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor Message\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Those stories about hidden underground tunnel systems in the Bay Area. They’re true!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Underground tunnels echo]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: The structure is absolutely amazing. It’s also quite scary. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: That voice you just heard was recorded deep under the streets of San Francisco, and it belongs to reporter Carly Severn. We sent her to investigate the secret world under the city,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Mystical music] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> A lot of you will have heard the legends about the very real labyrinths under major world cities, like the famous catacombs of Paris, that are lined with the bones of the city’s dead. And if you hit Google looking for information on San Francisco’s underground like I did, there’s a name that comes up again and again an urban explorer called Sierra Hardman. And his incredible, haunting photographs of shadowy spaces under the city are, for many people, their first clue that this world of tunnels really exists. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think it’s just ingrained in human nature. You know, you wonder what’s down there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Sierra told me he’s been obsessed with exploring the underground since he was a kid, back when he was growing up in Southern California, riding around on his bike, Goonies style, and peering into dark urban waterways. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I mean, you take a 12 year old kid and you show them an entrance of a tunnel like they’re gonna to go in. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When he was older, he moved to San Francisco and started roaming the streets with his camera while the rest of the city was sleeping, just looking for secret entry ways underground, guided by maps and city plans and whispers from other urban explorers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So much of it is just overgrown. Yeah, you drove past it so many times you don’t really recognize it as something really special. You don’t realize that there’s a whole, like, underground part of this thing.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He found doorways and manholes that led him down into dark, dripping tunnels stretching into blackness beyond the reach of his flashlight. But this network of underground spaces, this is no secret labyrinth built by shadowy figures. It’s San Francisco’s huge sewer network, and there’s one person in this city that knows the sewers inside out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: So my name’s Megan Abadie. I’m an assistant engineer for the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission Wastewater Enterprise. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Megan’s job is making sure that system – yep – pipes filled with your waste works.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I crawl through a lot of sewer pipes. That’s basically my job. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Wastewater management, what we call sewers, can sound kind of gross, but how this stuff all works is pretty impressive. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco is about a seven by seven, you know, 49-50 mile square city. And we actually have over 1000 miles of sewer main. There’s sewers under every block. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The thing about the city’s sewers is many of these pipes are big. Big enough for curious risk takers to walk through rather than crawl, which isn’t possible in many other cities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco has a very different type of sewer system than pretty much any other city in California. It has what’s called a combined system. That means that the stormwater and the sewage water leak from your toilet and your sinks, it all goes into the same set of pipes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We have an old city, and that one pipe system was how folks did it back then. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco’s sewer network, began to be built during the Gold Rush era. So there are some pipes that date from the 1840s. It was a very ad hoc system at that time that people would build pipes to just connect to the nearest creek. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Just like in New York, another old dense city. It was too hard to rip up San Francisco’s sewer network to add secondary pipes. So we’ve repaired and adapted our old system, creating a maze of those big wide sewer mains. But listen, if you’re hearing this and are feeling the lure of exploring the world on the San Francisco yourself, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">don’t\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. Seriously.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s a lot of things that can happen in the sewer that can actually kill you pretty easily. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There was no way I was going to follow in the footsteps of an urban explorer like Sierra Hartmann and go roaming under San Francisco alone. But there was this one particular place that Sierra told me about that I knew I really wanted to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Dramatic music] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A passageway somewhere beneath San Francisco that’s famous for its otherworldly look. Sierra had to pour over old sewer maps to find it. I was told it looks more like a cave than a sewer. And it leads right out onto the Pacific Ocean. Megan knew exactly the place I meant. And when conditions were just right, she said she’d take me down there herself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’ll be over 200 feet below the ground, actually. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Crew conversation in the background]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And so that’s how I end up with Megan and her crew, at 2 AM on the 4th of July in a harness, in a waist-high waders, getting recording equipment taped to my body, about to be lowered down into an open manhole. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">…Does it feel..? Oh, look like it’s a good height, you don’t need to adjust the height.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our underground journey will lead us through a very watery tunnel, through that sewer cave, and into what they call a discharge pipe. Now, that pipe is the way the system can safely get water out during really heavy storms, when the usual storage areas under the city are full to the brim. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah, so when we get out into the discharge pipe, you’re going to hear the ocean, just boring through this final stretch of tunnel. And you can actually, like, feel it. You can’t just hear it – you can feel it in your gut. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I can’t wait!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As one of her crew is strapping a bright yellow gas meter onto my suit, Megan tells me more about the very real dangers of being in the sewers. The big one is a lethal gas called hydrogen sulfide that can kill you before you know it’s there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> You can smell it at low levels, it smells like rotten eggs. At higher levels that actually kills the nerves, it kills your smell nerves, it kills your old factory nerves. So at higher levels, at levels high enough to be dangerous, you won’t smell it at all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And because of the gas risk, I’m getting an air pack too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That’s exactly like the, oxygen masks that you have on an airplane. You just put it over your face and breathe through it, and it’ll give you oxygen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Okay, well, fingers crossed we don’t end up using these. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You won’t, you won’t. But it’s good to know how to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After all this, I’m finally lowered down many feet into the tunnel by rope down a tall, rusting ladder until we splash into knee deep water and into the sewer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Sounds of water splashes]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And I’m staring down into a long, gaping tunnel that seems to stretch out for miles. Oh my goodness. This is exactly like I thought it would be, from watching horror movies. The air is really damp, exactly like they said it would be. You can kind of see this fine mist in the air, and I can hear my voice echoing in a really crazy way. There’s water flow under my feet… And it’s like walking through stream with a really dirty stream. Speaker 2: [00:08:45] We start to make our way toward the sewer cave that few people have seen. Megan tells me that had it been raining above ground, this tunnel would have been a lethal river of freezing water right up to the roof. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, this would totally be fun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Oh, yeah. You wouldn’t – we don’t go into the system when there’s even a drizzle.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you ever wondered what it sounds like to wade through raw sewage, it’s pretty much like this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Carly wading through water]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Weirdly, it does not smell that bad in here. Well, at least not as bad as I thought. Kind of smells like if you spent time on a farm. Kind of smells like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When I started working in for the city in 2011 and doing sewer entry.. So that was after the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Lord of the Rings\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> movies came out, and it reminded me of the mines of Moria with all the pillars, except it was full of water. Yeah. I thought it was really cool. I even thought it was cool seeing little turds float by. I mean, that’s not something everyone gets to see. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As we get closer to what I’d come to see. That cave, the crashing of the ocean out on the outside world suddenly gets louder. And then looming in front of us, right there in the tunnel. There it is. What looks like the tall, wide mouth of a cave, deep under San Francisco, dark, jutting rock yawning into more blackness. The entrance to the pipe that leads out to the water.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s amazing. It looks like it looks like a Middle Earth. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah. Isn’t it beautiful? This is, this is definitely the most scenic and beautiful combined sewer overflow in San Francisco. It’s the only one that’s carved into raw stone like this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We walk into the cave through a stretch of that discharge pipe, and there’s the final surprise. We can see the Pacific Ocean just feet away, framed by the rock. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Water flowing] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After hours underground, we’re now staring at broad daylight. This entrance, unthinkably, is how some explorers try to get in here from the outside via a tiny strip of beach that only opens up for a brief period of time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It’s a bad idea to go into the sewer anywhere, but it’s a really bad idea to go into the sewer via an access point that is only going to be passable for like, an hour or two.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Crouching there in that pipe, I see how quickly the waves are starting to rush towards us, a sign that it was time to hurry out of there and back above ground.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay, it is definitely smelling a little different on our return journey, and I think that’s because people have woken up by now and let’s just say they are using their bathrooms. And after being reattached the rope and having my tired body hauled out of the darkness and up through the manhole again like that, I am out of the underworld. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Carly laughing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And out into daylight on the 4th of July. Cool. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So there you have it. San Francisco’s secret underground is pretty incredible, even if our legendary tunnels are actually some not so secret sewers after all. Except… maybe there’s something Sierra told me that I couldn’t get out of my mind. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Mystical music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A lot of these sewers are maps. Because in the 1906 earthquake and the entire city, or the entire eastern half of the city anyway, just burned to the ground. They lost tons of records of infrastructure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And you know what? According to the city, he’s right. So there is still a touch of mystery under San Francisco, after all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Music fades]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That was KQED’s Carly Seven. This is a story that you really need to see, not just listen to. Video producer Sruti Mamidanna made a video from Carly’s trip and it is very cool. You can find it at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">baycurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> – we’ll drop a link in the show notes too. It’s a new month, which means a new voting round is up at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">baycurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>.\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Let’s hear the choices. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 1 : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">How clean is the Bay Area water? Is it safe to swim? Are some areas better than others? What would it take to get it fully clean or safe? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Whatever happened to the Bay area’s camels? I went to high school in Benicia and heard things about the camel barns. There are no longer camels in the barns. Where did they go, and why were they there to begin with?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What’s the deal with the Devil’s Slide? And how did I get that name? Had to \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">baycurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> to cast your vote, for which question we should answer next.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Bay Curious is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Bill, Tamuna Chkareuli, and me, Olivia Allen-Price with support from Kimberly Low, Molly Wu, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and KQED family. Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member supported KQED. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll see you next week. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a>, we’ve received a \u003cem>lot\u003c/em> of questions about tunnels under San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Listeners have told us they’ve heard stories of secret passageways running under the city. They’ve asked us, what is the truth about them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first thing I should tell you is: They’re absolutely real.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>\u003cstrong>What Lies Beneath?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>The myth of the underground — a silent world hidden under our feet — is an endlessly alluring one. There are, after all, very \u003cem>real\u003c/em> labyrinths under major world cities. Like the infamous \u003ca href=\"http://catacombes.paris.fr/en\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">catacombs of Paris\u003c/a>, lined with the bones of the city’s dead, or the \u003ca href=\"https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/odessa-catacombs\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">terrifying catacombs under Odesa\u003c/a> in Ukraine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some people get so obsessed with the idea of tunnels that they search for underground adventures themselves. They call themselves “urban explorers.” If you hit Google looking for information on San Francisco’s particular underground, there’s a name that comes up again and again — an explorer named \u003ca href=\"http://www.sierrahartman.com/sf-underground\">Sierra Hartman\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782642\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 700px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782642 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/Sierra-1.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"700\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/Sierra-1.png 700w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/Sierra-1-160x103.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Somewhere under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sierra Hartman)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A photographer and writer, Hartman’s haunting photographs of shadowy spaces under S.F. are, for many people, their first clue that this particular world of tunnels really does exist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think it’s just ingrained in human nature, you know?” Hartman says of the drive to venture below. “You wonder what’s down there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hartman lives in Tacoma, Washington, but grew up in Southern California. It was roaming around on his bike as a kid with friends, Goonies-style, that he discovered the dark urban waterways in his hometown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You take a 12-year-old kid and show them an entrance of a tunnel? Like, they’re \u003cem>going\u003c/em> to go in,” Hartman says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782644\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 700px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782644 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_v96zDttNjTR0Bhsu_.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"700\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_v96zDttNjTR0Bhsu_.png 700w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_v96zDttNjTR0Bhsu_-160x103.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Somewhere under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sierra Hartman)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Arriving in San Francisco later in life, he began exploring the city’s streets at night with his camera. One of those nights, a chance encounter with a manhole left open led him beneath the San Francisco for the first time — and sparked an adult passion for urban exploration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Across the sleeping city, Hartman found entrances to dark, dripping tunnels, sloshing wet, that stretched for miles into the blackness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So much of it is just overgrown,” he says of those doorways. “You don’t \u003cem>realize\u003c/em> that there is a whole underground part of this thing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like many urban explorers, Hartman says, he enjoyed the thrill of the hunt almost as much as the actual discovery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Like solving a puzzle,” he says. “It’s as much about solving the mystery and finding the thing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782645\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 700px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782645 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_bKc1L_JmfVh4mTQZ_.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"700\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_bKc1L_JmfVh4mTQZ_.png 700w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_bKc1L_JmfVh4mTQZ_-160x103.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Somewhere under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sierra Hartman)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>He used a mixture of publicly available records and maps, Google Earth, and whispers from fellow urban explorers, who are notoriously secretive about their finds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At least some of that is due to the risks of their enterprise. Bodily dangers aside, urban exploration represents “at best a gray area of legality in some places, and outright trespassing in other places,” as Hartman puts it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This is the part where I tell you that this underground network Hartman risked bodily harm to venture into is no mysterious labyrinth built by shadowy figures.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s San Francisco’s huge sewer network.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>\u003cstrong>A Complex World You Don’t See\u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>“I crawl through a lot of sewer pipes. That’s basically my job,” says Megan Abadie, an assistant engineer for the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission wastewater enterprise. Her job sees her enter those same tunnels — legally — to make sure that this giant, intricate system filled with your waste keeps working the way it’s meant to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782900\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782900 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-1200x800.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in her office at San Francisco’s Public Utilities Commission. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>There are a lot of misconceptions about the sewers, Abadie says. For one, what we surface-dwellers call “tunnels” aren’t truly tunnels — a term that specifically means a long run of pipe bored out of the earth with only a few manholes attached. When we talk of the “tunnels under San Francisco,” we’re usually talking, in fact, about sewer mains.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco is 49 square miles but has over 1,000 miles of sewer mains under every block. What makes our system unique in California is the fact that it’s a combined system. Instead of stormwater and sewage water being separated into different pipes, as they are elsewhere in the state, in San Francisco, it all flows into the same set of pipes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782624\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782624 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-800x450.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut.jpg 1885w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie, deep in the San Francisco sewers. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>This is a legacy of the city’s relative age, with the foundations of our modern-day sewers being laid during the Gold Rush — in what Abadie describes as “a very ad hoc system … people would build pipes to just connect to the nearest creek.” There are still some pipes under your feet that date from the 1840s, she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just like in New York — another old, dense city — it was too hard to rip up San Francisco’s sewer network to replace the old system with secondary pipes. So we’ve repaired and adapted our old system, which is why this city still has those big, wide sewer mains … that people can’t seem to stay out of.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>A Lethal Labyrinth\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>“There’s a lot of things that can happen in the sewer that can actually kill you pretty easily,” Abadie reminds me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For one thing, there’s the risk of drowning down there. Because of San Francisco’s steep topography, Abadie and her colleagues never enter the sewers if there’s so much as a drizzle of rain anywhere in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782637\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782637 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in the sewers of San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“If you’re in a large pipe at the bottom of a hill, it doesn’t take much for a big slug of water to hit you, even if it’s not raining very much where you are,” she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, there’s the danger of toxic gas, namely hydrogen sulfide, produced when organic material (waste matter, seaweed) starts to decompose. At low levels, it has a distinctive smell of rotten eggs. At higher levels, it affects a person’s sense of smell entirely and can knock you out — and kill you — within minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782625\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782625 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in the San Francisco sewers. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>On top of \u003cem>that\u003c/em>, there’s the threat of simply getting lost, injured or both in the sewers. Abadie and her fellow inspectors are equipped with accurate maps and supported by a large chain of people both below and above ground — weather spotters, medics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I go into the sewer system, I know exactly where I am. … You go into a pipe that you see sticking out somewhere? Open up a manhole? You’re not going to know where you are,” Abadie says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782638\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782638 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Stooping low in the sewers. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>After hearing this, I had \u003cem>zero\u003c/em> intention of exploring the sewers alone for this story. But I couldn’t resist asking Megan to take me down to see an underground place that Sierra Hartman had told me about.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>\u003cstrong>A Trip into the Underworld\u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>It looked more like a cave than a sewer, Hartman says. And I knew urban explorers like him would spend months, even years, trying to track down its precise location — because of how striking it looked and how it led right out to the Pacific Ocean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Abadie knew exactly the place Hartman meant and asked me to wait until the timing was just right when it’d be safe enough at low tide, with no chance of rain. That timing turned out to be very early in the morning on the Fourth of July, the lowest tide of the year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782626\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782626 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Reporter Carly Severn being lowered into the sewer system. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As Abadie’s crew secured a harness and waist-high waders to my body, she explained why we’d be taking gas meters and oxygen masks down there. Even though the fast flow of the system we’d be entering would lower the hydrogen sulfide risk, “you can go into a sewer that’s been fine every single time, and one year something can be different,” she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With safety equipment secured, we were lowered one by one into the tunnel by rope, down a tall, rusting ladder until we finally reached the bottom of the sewer with a splash. The water reached our knees. Ahead, through the humid, misty air, was a long, high tunnel that seemed to stretch for miles in front of us. Down there in the darkness was that “sewer cave” — and the ocean. During the rainy season, Abadie reminded me that the tunnel we stood in would have been full of water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782631\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1851px\">\u003ca href=\"manho\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782631 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1851\" height=\"1056\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut.jpg 1851w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-160x91.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-800x456.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-1020x582.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-1200x685.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1851px) 100vw, 1851px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Reporter Carly Severn is lowered down through a manhole. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Surprisingly, the sewers don’t smell how you might fear they would: the odor is agricultural, like a farmyard smell. Yet no matter how pleasant this surprise, wading through high sewer water in such humidity quickly becomes exhausting, like walking through deep snow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As we walked through the tunnel, our voices echoing off the walls, Abadie told me about her first entries into the sewers after she started working for the city in 2011. The underground network, she says, reminded her of the vast Mines of Moria in “The Lord of the Rings.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I thought it was really cool. I even thought it was cool seeing a little turd float by! I mean, that’s not something everyone gets to see,” she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782632\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1885px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782632 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1885\" height=\"1060\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut.jpg 1885w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1885px) 100vw, 1885px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Exploring deep under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As we got closer to what \u003cem>I’d\u003c/em> come to see — that cave — the crashing of the Pacific Ocean suddenly grew louder. Looming in front of us, there it was: What looked like the tall, wide mouth of a cave, deep under San Francisco, carved from dark, jutting rock and yawning into more blackness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This,” Abadie says with some pride, “is definitely the most scenic and beautiful combined sewer overflow in San Francisco.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782633\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"Sruti%20Mamidanna/KQED\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782633 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Carly Severn and Megan Abadie in the mouth of the ‘sewer cave.’\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Passing through the cave, we had to stoop to get through the last part of our journey, our helmets scraping the ceiling. We were now inside the discharge pipe: the way the system can safely get water out during heavy storms, while providing primary-level treatment, when the usual storage areas under the city are full to the brim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the end of the pipe, the waves we could hear crashing close suddenly became visible, as I found myself looking out at the ocean, framed by rock. After hours underground, it was now daylight out there. That entrance onto the water is, unthinkably, how some explorers try to get \u003cem>in\u003c/em> here via a tiny strip of beach that opens up only for a brief period of time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782636\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1846px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782636 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1846\" height=\"1038\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut.jpg 1846w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1846px) 100vw, 1846px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A glimpse of the Pacific Ocean. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As the tide started to rise, the waves started to crash further and further into the pipe toward us, and we knew it was time to go. As we moved back through the tunnel, the difference in smell was palpable: The people of San Francisco were waking up and were starting to use their bathrooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After being attached to the rope and hauled out of the darkness and up through the manhole again, I was suddenly out of the city’s underworld. Exhausted, after hours of trudging through sewer water, the call of the underground was only more apparent to me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So what could people do, I asked Abadie, if after hearing the truth about the darkness and danger down there, they \u003cem>still\u003c/em> couldn’t resist the lure of subterranean exploration?\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782640\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1891px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782640 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1891\" height=\"1064\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut.jpg 1891w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1891px) 100vw, 1891px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in the discharge pipe leading out to the ocean. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna )\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We have a lot of people retiring here. You can come work for us!” she says. “We will get you into sewers. It’ll be awesome. Your passion can actually get you \u003cem>paid\u003c/em> to explore sewers.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Or become a public radio reporter,” she added. “Those are two ways that you can get into sewers and not die.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story first published on Oct. 31, 2019 and was updated and republished on May 2, 2024. Special thanks to Evan Thompson with his assistance for this story.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Sounds of birds, dog barking]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Around us all the time is the city that we know. The same stretch of sidewalk we walk on every day, the bus stop on the corner, our favorite restaurants, our neighborhood parks. If you live anywhere long enough, you can think you’ve seen it all. But what if beneath the streets there was another world? A place that’s so close to you all the time, but you wouldn’t even recognize it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Bay Curious theme music starts] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hey everyone, Olivia Allen-Price here. Over the years we’ve been running Bay Curious, we’ve received a bunch of questions about tunnels. Listeners who say they’ve heard stories of secret passageways running under San Francisco. \u003c/span>We aired an episode on the topic in 2019, but your questions have kept on coming … So today we’re going to revisit it, and answer the question do these tunnels exist?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor Message\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Those stories about hidden underground tunnel systems in the Bay Area. They’re true!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Underground tunnels echo]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: The structure is absolutely amazing. It’s also quite scary. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: That voice you just heard was recorded deep under the streets of San Francisco, and it belongs to reporter Carly Severn. We sent her to investigate the secret world under the city,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Mystical music] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> A lot of you will have heard the legends about the very real labyrinths under major world cities, like the famous catacombs of Paris, that are lined with the bones of the city’s dead. And if you hit Google looking for information on San Francisco’s underground like I did, there’s a name that comes up again and again an urban explorer called Sierra Hardman. And his incredible, haunting photographs of shadowy spaces under the city are, for many people, their first clue that this world of tunnels really exists. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think it’s just ingrained in human nature. You know, you wonder what’s down there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Sierra told me he’s been obsessed with exploring the underground since he was a kid, back when he was growing up in Southern California, riding around on his bike, Goonies style, and peering into dark urban waterways. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I mean, you take a 12 year old kid and you show them an entrance of a tunnel like they’re gonna to go in. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When he was older, he moved to San Francisco and started roaming the streets with his camera while the rest of the city was sleeping, just looking for secret entry ways underground, guided by maps and city plans and whispers from other urban explorers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So much of it is just overgrown. Yeah, you drove past it so many times you don’t really recognize it as something really special. You don’t realize that there’s a whole, like, underground part of this thing.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He found doorways and manholes that led him down into dark, dripping tunnels stretching into blackness beyond the reach of his flashlight. But this network of underground spaces, this is no secret labyrinth built by shadowy figures. It’s San Francisco’s huge sewer network, and there’s one person in this city that knows the sewers inside out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: So my name’s Megan Abadie. I’m an assistant engineer for the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission Wastewater Enterprise. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Megan’s job is making sure that system – yep – pipes filled with your waste works.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I crawl through a lot of sewer pipes. That’s basically my job. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Wastewater management, what we call sewers, can sound kind of gross, but how this stuff all works is pretty impressive. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco is about a seven by seven, you know, 49-50 mile square city. And we actually have over 1000 miles of sewer main. There’s sewers under every block. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The thing about the city’s sewers is many of these pipes are big. Big enough for curious risk takers to walk through rather than crawl, which isn’t possible in many other cities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco has a very different type of sewer system than pretty much any other city in California. It has what’s called a combined system. That means that the stormwater and the sewage water leak from your toilet and your sinks, it all goes into the same set of pipes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We have an old city, and that one pipe system was how folks did it back then. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco’s sewer network, began to be built during the Gold Rush era. So there are some pipes that date from the 1840s. It was a very ad hoc system at that time that people would build pipes to just connect to the nearest creek. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Just like in New York, another old dense city. It was too hard to rip up San Francisco’s sewer network to add secondary pipes. So we’ve repaired and adapted our old system, creating a maze of those big wide sewer mains. But listen, if you’re hearing this and are feeling the lure of exploring the world on the San Francisco yourself, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">don’t\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. Seriously.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s a lot of things that can happen in the sewer that can actually kill you pretty easily. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There was no way I was going to follow in the footsteps of an urban explorer like Sierra Hartmann and go roaming under San Francisco alone. But there was this one particular place that Sierra told me about that I knew I really wanted to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Dramatic music] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A passageway somewhere beneath San Francisco that’s famous for its otherworldly look. Sierra had to pour over old sewer maps to find it. I was told it looks more like a cave than a sewer. And it leads right out onto the Pacific Ocean. Megan knew exactly the place I meant. And when conditions were just right, she said she’d take me down there herself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’ll be over 200 feet below the ground, actually. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Crew conversation in the background]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And so that’s how I end up with Megan and her crew, at 2 AM on the 4th of July in a harness, in a waist-high waders, getting recording equipment taped to my body, about to be lowered down into an open manhole. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">…Does it feel..? Oh, look like it’s a good height, you don’t need to adjust the height.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our underground journey will lead us through a very watery tunnel, through that sewer cave, and into what they call a discharge pipe. Now, that pipe is the way the system can safely get water out during really heavy storms, when the usual storage areas under the city are full to the brim. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah, so when we get out into the discharge pipe, you’re going to hear the ocean, just boring through this final stretch of tunnel. And you can actually, like, feel it. You can’t just hear it – you can feel it in your gut. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I can’t wait!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As one of her crew is strapping a bright yellow gas meter onto my suit, Megan tells me more about the very real dangers of being in the sewers. The big one is a lethal gas called hydrogen sulfide that can kill you before you know it’s there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> You can smell it at low levels, it smells like rotten eggs. At higher levels that actually kills the nerves, it kills your smell nerves, it kills your old factory nerves. So at higher levels, at levels high enough to be dangerous, you won’t smell it at all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And because of the gas risk, I’m getting an air pack too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That’s exactly like the, oxygen masks that you have on an airplane. You just put it over your face and breathe through it, and it’ll give you oxygen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Okay, well, fingers crossed we don’t end up using these. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You won’t, you won’t. But it’s good to know how to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After all this, I’m finally lowered down many feet into the tunnel by rope down a tall, rusting ladder until we splash into knee deep water and into the sewer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Sounds of water splashes]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And I’m staring down into a long, gaping tunnel that seems to stretch out for miles. Oh my goodness. This is exactly like I thought it would be, from watching horror movies. The air is really damp, exactly like they said it would be. You can kind of see this fine mist in the air, and I can hear my voice echoing in a really crazy way. There’s water flow under my feet… And it’s like walking through stream with a really dirty stream. Speaker 2: [00:08:45] We start to make our way toward the sewer cave that few people have seen. Megan tells me that had it been raining above ground, this tunnel would have been a lethal river of freezing water right up to the roof. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, this would totally be fun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Oh, yeah. You wouldn’t – we don’t go into the system when there’s even a drizzle.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you ever wondered what it sounds like to wade through raw sewage, it’s pretty much like this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Carly wading through water]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Weirdly, it does not smell that bad in here. Well, at least not as bad as I thought. Kind of smells like if you spent time on a farm. Kind of smells like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When I started working in for the city in 2011 and doing sewer entry.. So that was after the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Lord of the Rings\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> movies came out, and it reminded me of the mines of Moria with all the pillars, except it was full of water. Yeah. I thought it was really cool. I even thought it was cool seeing little turds float by. I mean, that’s not something everyone gets to see. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As we get closer to what I’d come to see. That cave, the crashing of the ocean out on the outside world suddenly gets louder. And then looming in front of us, right there in the tunnel. There it is. What looks like the tall, wide mouth of a cave, deep under San Francisco, dark, jutting rock yawning into more blackness. The entrance to the pipe that leads out to the water.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s amazing. It looks like it looks like a Middle Earth. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah. Isn’t it beautiful? This is, this is definitely the most scenic and beautiful combined sewer overflow in San Francisco. It’s the only one that’s carved into raw stone like this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We walk into the cave through a stretch of that discharge pipe, and there’s the final surprise. We can see the Pacific Ocean just feet away, framed by the rock. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Water flowing] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After hours underground, we’re now staring at broad daylight. This entrance, unthinkably, is how some explorers try to get in here from the outside via a tiny strip of beach that only opens up for a brief period of time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It’s a bad idea to go into the sewer anywhere, but it’s a really bad idea to go into the sewer via an access point that is only going to be passable for like, an hour or two.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Crouching there in that pipe, I see how quickly the waves are starting to rush towards us, a sign that it was time to hurry out of there and back above ground.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay, it is definitely smelling a little different on our return journey, and I think that’s because people have woken up by now and let’s just say they are using their bathrooms. And after being reattached the rope and having my tired body hauled out of the darkness and up through the manhole again like that, I am out of the underworld. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Carly laughing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And out into daylight on the 4th of July. Cool. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So there you have it. San Francisco’s secret underground is pretty incredible, even if our legendary tunnels are actually some not so secret sewers after all. Except… maybe there’s something Sierra told me that I couldn’t get out of my mind. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Mystical music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A lot of these sewers are maps. Because in the 1906 earthquake and the entire city, or the entire eastern half of the city anyway, just burned to the ground. They lost tons of records of infrastructure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And you know what? According to the city, he’s right. So there is still a touch of mystery under San Francisco, after all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Music fades]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That was KQED’s Carly Seven. This is a story that you really need to see, not just listen to. Video producer Sruti Mamidanna made a video from Carly’s trip and it is very cool. You can find it at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">baycurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> – we’ll drop a link in the show notes too. It’s a new month, which means a new voting round is up at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">baycurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>.\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Let’s hear the choices. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 1 : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">How clean is the Bay Area water? Is it safe to swim? Are some areas better than others? What would it take to get it fully clean or safe? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Whatever happened to the Bay area’s camels? I went to high school in Benicia and heard things about the camel barns. There are no longer camels in the barns. Where did they go, and why were they there to begin with?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What’s the deal with the Devil’s Slide? And how did I get that name? Had to \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">baycurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> to cast your vote, for which question we should answer next.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Bay Curious is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Bill, Tamuna Chkareuli, and me, Olivia Allen-Price with support from Kimberly Low, Molly Wu, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and KQED family. Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member supported KQED. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll see you next week. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "alameda-the-island-that-almost-wasnt",
"title": "Alameda: The Island That Almost Wasn’t",
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"headTitle": "Alameda: The Island That Almost Wasn’t | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The city of Alameda has all the sure signs of an island. To get there, you have to use a bridge, a tunnel or a boat. Locals talk about going “on and off island.” And residents, like Nate Puckett, wear Alameda-themed T-shirts that say “Islander.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t leave the island for, like, weeks,” says Puckett, who lives, works and raises two kids in the Bay Area city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But recently, Puckett’s sense of place was thrown off-kilter. He was enjoying an ice cream at a favorite local spot — Tucker’s — when he looked up at a historical map on the wall. It showed Alameda connected to the mainland. That must be wrong, he thought; Alameda is an island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the map was not wrong — it was just old. In fact, Alameda is not a natural island. And it almost never became an island at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It kind of felt like we’ve been living a lie,” Puckett says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Puckett asked Bay Curious to find out more about Alameda’s island origin story. The project took nearly 30 years to complete and had enough twists and turns to make anyone dizzy.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>When it all began\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983868\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://oaklandlibrary.org/ohc/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11983868 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Alameda1877-tweaked.jpg\" alt=\"An old map shows what is now Alameda Island as connected to the mainland.\" width=\"999\" height=\"752\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Alameda1877-tweaked.jpg 999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Alameda1877-tweaked-800x602.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Alameda1877-tweaked-160x120.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 999px) 100vw, 999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A map of Alameda from 1877 shows it as a connected peninsula, not an island. \u003ccite>(Oakland Public Library, Oakland History Center)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In the 1870s, Alameda was a big peninsula that jutted out from what is now Oakland’s Fruitvale neighborhood like an outstretched arm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back then, things were pretty quiet in that part of the East Bay (it wasn’t Oakland until later). The marshy region was not very populated; the landscape was mostly wide open fields and the estates of a few wealthy families.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Oakland’s inner harbor was nearby, and it was quickly becoming a bustling center for maritime commerce. Once the Gold Rush started, more and more ships arrived, bringing in all sorts of goods. And Oakland itself was growing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But navigation to the budding port was tricky. Boats had to traverse a wild waterway that hadn’t seen much development yet. Sediment on the harbor’s bottom would shift with the tides, causing sandbars to move in unpredictable patterns that caused problems for navigation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[The sandbars] were there on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, [and then] they’d be over here on Tuesday and Thursday,” Alameda historian Dennis Evanosky says. “It impeded the shipping traffic.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983870\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983870\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Evanosky-Puckett.jpg\" alt=\"Older man in blue sweater stands next to a younger one in brown.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1276\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Evanosky-Puckett.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Evanosky-Puckett-800x532.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Evanosky-Puckett-1020x678.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Evanosky-Puckett-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Evanosky-Puckett-1536x1021.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Dennis Evanosky (left) with Nate Puckett next to the Alameda canal. The Park Street bridge looms in the background. \u003ccite>(Pauline Bartolone/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Oakland was never going to become the shipping destination it wanted to be if the waterways remained so unpredictable and the port so difficult to reach. And Oakland had big development ambitions, says Richard Walker, a \u003ca href=\"https://geography.berkeley.edu/professor-emeritus-richard-walker\">professor emeritus in geography at UC Berkeley\u003c/a> and author of several books about California history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The sense of competition with San Francisco [was] intense,” Walker says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the late 1800s, Oakland was coming into its own politically and economically, developing its own banks, businesses and shipping companies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That grows and grows so that Oakland, by the early 20th century, is really thumbing its nose at San Francisco,” Walker says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In response to local lobbying, Congressmen worked to bring in millions of federal dollars to pay the Army Corps of Engineers to improve the harbor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since shifting sandbars on the bottom was the biggest problem, \u003ca href=\"https://tile.loc.gov/storage-services/master/pnp/habshaer/ca/ca2600/ca2606/data/ca2606data.pdf\">the initial plan\u003c/a> was to cut through the marshy area of the Alameda peninsula, where it was connected to the mainland, to create a canal. Engineers thought if they built a dam at one end, they could release powerful torrents of water through the canal to flush out built-up sediment in the harbor. That would clear the way for bigger ships to come and go more easily.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The project got the green light in the early 1870s, but over the next three decades, it hit roadblock after roadblock.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Resistance to the project\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://alamedamuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/AMQ_MAR_2019.pdf\">Eleven families owned land where the government wanted to dredge the canal\u003c/a>. Oakland officials offered families $40,000 at the time, more than $1.2 million today. But one person refused — \u003ca href=\"https://www.cohenbrayhouse.org/about-6\">A.A. Cohen, a railroad industry baron and attorney\u003c/a> who owned an estate with a 70-room mansion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They were screwing with his kingdom,” says Patty Donald, Cohen’s great-great-granddaughter and manager of the\u003ca href=\"https://www.cohenbrayhouse.org/history\"> Cohen Bray house\u003c/a>, a historic Victorian building in Oakland’s Fruitvale neighborhood. The Cohen family challenged the canal project more than once.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He was one of the most powerful people in Alameda at that time because he had bought a failing rail system,” Donald says. “He built it up in two years and created another one.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, the canal project progressed despite Cohen’s legal challenge, and by 1889 the excavation was underway.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The setbacks pile up\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Quickly, the canal project suffered another setback — flooding. The winter of 1889 was one of the wettest on record. More than 45 inches of rain fell that year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Disaster struck on a stormy night in January when Sausal Creek overflowed its banks at Fruitvale Avenue and flooded the ditch and equipment,” \u003ca href=\"https://alamedamuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/AMQ_MAR_2019.pdf\">wrote historian Woody Minor in the Alameda Museum newslette\u003c/a>r. “It took two months to pump out the water.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Next, the project’s proponents had to deal with public opinion and perhaps the very first complaints from Alamedans about commuting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People complain, ‘Well if you’re gonna have this canal here, how are we going to get home?’” Evanosky says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The dredged canal cut across one of the main thoroughfares, leading to the Alameda peninsula, disrupting traffic \u003ca href=\"https://alamedamuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/AMQ_MAR_2019.pdf\">for two years\u003c/a>. The Park Street bridge opened in 1891, and Alameda’s two other bridges, at High Street and Fruitvale Avenue, were built the following decade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If legal battles, payouts and flooding weren’t enough, there was an economic depression in the 1890s. Funding for the canal project dried up. And then, the project’s long-time champion at the Army Corp of Engineers, \u003ca href=\"https://www.spn.usace.army.mil/Portals/68/docs/History/Engineers%20at%20the%20Golden%20Gate.pdf?ver=2019-10-24-161149-027\">Major George Mendell\u003c/a>, retired.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, the nail in the coffin for the dam/canal combo plan came from \u003ca href=\"https://alamedamuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/AMQ_MAR_2019.pdf\">new research suggesting that dredging deeper in Oakland’s harbor would be more effective for boat passage\u003c/a> than this idea of flushing sediment away using a dam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While government officials debated the next steps, a partially dug, unfinished giant trench was left.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>‘Fetid water awash with dead fish’\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>At this point, 20 years after the project began, raw sewage in the area’s waterways had become a real problem. In the late 1800s, people in Oakland and Alameda started installing residential sewer systems, and the waste flowed right into Lake Merritt and the Oakland Harbor. The unfinished canal became a cesspool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Fetid water awash with dead fish lapped against the dam and seeped into the ditch, emitting a pervasive stench,” \u003ca href=\"https://alamedamuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/AMQ_MAR_2019.pdf\">wrote Minor in his history of the island\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Alameda’s health officer at the time, Dr. John T. McClean, became the biggest crusader for completing the canal. In a letter to Washington, published by the Oakland Enquirer in 1897, McLean argued that the stench from the incomplete trench had not only become offensive, but the foul water was killing fish and crabs and posed a health hazard. Better water circulation through the canal would help flush away foul substances, he argued.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, government officials soon found the money to put a massive steam shovel to work ripping through the marsh between Alameda and modern-day Oakland. They finished dredging the canal in 1902, nearly 30 years after the plan was first hatched. Alameda was officially an island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There was no dam. … but residents celebrated anyway — through days of fireworks, carnival acts and a procession of two hundred lighted boats.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>A failed idea? \u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The scale and ambition of the Alameda Island project don’t impress geographer Richard Walker. In the grand scheme of things, he says, the project was actually pretty small. There are very few parts of the San Francisco Bay that humans haven’t somehow altered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is California,” Walker says. “California [is] one of the most monumentally re-engineered landscapes on Earth.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>More than a century after the project was completed, the water in the neatly engineered tidal canal that separates Alameda from Oakland is relatively still, looking like a moat around a castle. People mostly use it for recreation now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nate Puckett says it doesn’t bother him that Alameda isn’t naturally an island. Residents here still bond over bridge and tunnel delays and over a beer at Alameda Island Brewing Company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nOlivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>One of the best parts about a deep and long-running friendship is you can poke a little fun at each other for your quirks. Like how you’re a diehard fan for a chronically losing sports team or how you put ketchup on everything – gross. For Nate Puckett, his friends rib him about how he never leaves the city of Alameda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nate Puckett:\u003c/b> So I work here, I live here, my kids go to school here. I have a 4-year-old and a 6-year-old. So I don’t leave the island for like weeks. And people make fun of me for that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Alameda is an island, in case you didn’t know, and that fact is pretty wrapped up in the identity of some people who live there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nate Puckett:\u003c/b> I have a T-shirt that says Islander. That’s, like, Alameda themed. There’s Alameda Island Brewing. Like, you talk about whether, you know, you’re on the island or not on the island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>But recently, Nate’s sense of place was thrown off-kilter. He was eating ice cream at a local spot – Tuckers. He glanced up at a historical map hanging on the wall. And there, he saw something that shook him to the core. Alameda was connected to what is now mainland Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nate Puckett:\u003c/b> It kind of felt like we’ve been all living a lie. It kind of felt like, no, that’s wrong. Alameda is an island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>But no. The map was not wrong. It was just \u003ci>old\u003c/i>. Alameda is not a natural island. And it almost never became an island at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Bay Curious theme music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>On this episode of Bay Curious, we’re going to find out how and \u003ci>why \u003c/i>Alameda was sliced off the mainland. It’s a story with enough twists and turns to make your head spin. I’m Olivia Allen Price. We’ll dive in just after this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sponsor break\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Making Alameda into an island took nearly 30 years. And in the end, the original idea for the massive excavation, didn’t quite pan out as planned. KQED Producer Pauline Bartolone tells us all about the bumpy journey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>Flooding, legal battles, an economic slump and raw sewage. They’re all part of Alameda’s island origin story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It all starts back in the 1870s, Alameda was a big peninsula, jutting out like an outstretched arm from what is now Oakland’s Fruitvale neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back then, things were pretty quiet where Alameda connected with the mainland. Not many people lived in this marshy region. Think open fields and maybe just a few estates of wealthy families.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just to the west was a waterway, the Oakland harbor, that opened up to the San Francisco Bay. And it was becoming a bustling center for maritime commerce. More and more ships were arriving since the Gold Rush, bringing all sorts of goods. But navigation in this waterway was tricky. Sediment on its floor would shift — a lot! — causing all sorts of problems for boats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music ends. We hear the sounds of street traffic and outside noises.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/b> The trouble is, there were sandbars. And there were all kinds of impediments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>Alameda historian Dennis Evanosky took me and our question-asker, Nate Puckett, on a tour along Alameda’s waterfront. He says around what is now the Port of Oakland, the waterway was wild and untouched, with sandbars that would ebb and flow with the tide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/b> They were there on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, then they’d be over here on Tuesday and Thursday, this place else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nate Puckett:\u003c/b> Oh, yeah, haha.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/b> And it impeded the shipping traffic!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>The unpredictable nature of the waterway didn’t work for the shipping industry, which wanted to get more boats into the port. Oakland had big development ambitions, says Richard Walker, a professor emeritus in geography at UC Berkeley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Richard Walker: \u003c/b>Then, the sense of competition with San Francisco is intense, even though there’s a lot of San Francisco investment in Oakland. But you start to create Oakland having its own capitalist class, its own leadership who have banks in Oakland, have businesses, you know, have shipping companies, and they actually have a local interest. And that grows and grows so that Oakland, you know, by the early 20th century, is really thumbing its nose at San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>Local Congressmen made deals to bring in millions of federal dollars to improve the harbor. Evanosky says the big idea was to dredge a canal all the way across the north side of Alameda, turning the peninsula into an island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>We hear sounds of traffic near the canal\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/b> They planned to build this tidal canal as a scouring channel. What they planned to do was build a dam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b> The dam would be built on the far east side of Alameda. And then during ebb tide, when the water is naturally flowing out to the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/b> They are going to open that dam, and we’re going to have the water to, I say, “whoosh” through the scouring channel here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b> Engineers thought this would harness the natural power of tides to flush sediment out of the Oakland estuary and toward the Bay, learning the passage for boats coming in and out of the narrow waterway.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/b> And these aren’t necessarily big, huge ships. These could be smaller ships, but they need a place to navigate and turn around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b> So, that was the plan. … in the beginning. The project got the green light in the early 1870s but had a slow start. And over the next three decades, it hit roadblock after roadblock. Early on, the government had to buy out 11 families who would lose part of their estates to the canal. They were offered $40,000 at the time, what is more than $1.2 million today. But one family refused.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patty Donald:\u003c/b> They were screwing with his kingdom. If you put it that way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>Patty Donald is the great-great-granddaughter of A.A. Cohen, a railroad industry baron and attorney who owned an estate with a 70-room mansion on Alameda. A.A. Cohen’s family challenged the canal project more than once.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patty Donald:\u003c/b> He was one of the most powerful people in Alameda at that time because he had started, he had bought a failing rail system in 1876, I think.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>He sued to stop the canal project and lost. And it went forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>By 1889, the excavation was underway. But quickly suffered another setback. A deluge, literally. The winter that started in 1889 was one of the wettest on record. More than 45 inches of rain fell that year. That’s according to a history written by Woody Minor of the Alameda Museum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sound effect of typewriter under voice-over\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Voice actor reading:\u003c/i>\u003c/b> Disaster struck on a stormy night in January when Sausal Creek overflowed its banks at Fruitvale Avenue and flooded the ditch and equipment. It took two months to pump out the water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>Then, they had to deal with public opinion. And perhaps the very first complaints from Alameda residents about commuting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/b> They are digging this canal. And there’s a problem. People complain, well, if you’re gonna have this canal here, how are we going to get home?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>The canal dredging was disrupting traffic to one of Alameda’s main entrances, Evanosky says. So, the Park Street Bridge was built first, and then two other bridges came.. in the decade that followed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>As if legal battles, payouts and flooding weren’t enough, the canal project suffered more roadblocks in the 1890s. According to the Alameda Museum’s Woody Minor, funding dried up during an economic depression. Then, the project’s long-time champion at the Army Corps of Engineers retired.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then — this one’s big — new research suggested that dredging deeper in Oakland’s harbor would be more effective for boat passage than this idea of flushing sediment out using a dam. While government officials debated next steps, a partially dug unfinished canal was left. A big giant trench.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/b> So they had to stop. And this is all done, and they had to stop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>Now, this is where the raw sewage comes into the picture. Right around this time, people in Oakland and Alameda started installing residential sewer systems. And the waste was flowing right into Lake Merritt and the Oakland Harbor. By the Alameda Museum’s account, the waterway became a cesspool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sound effect of typewriter under voice-over\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Actor:\u003c/b> Fetid water awash with dead fish lapped against the dam and seeped into the ditch, emitting a pervasive stench.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>Alameda’s health officer became the biggest crusader for completing the canal. In 1897, he argued that the stench from the incomplete trench had not only become offensive, but the foul water was killing fish and crabs and posing a health hazard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So government officials soon found the money to put a massive steam shovel to work and finish that canal excavation once and for good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sound of a big machine starting up\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>In case you’re wondering if, during this era, anyone ever chimed in about the ecological impacts of ripping through this marshy area?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Richard Walker:\u003c/b> No, no, no, no, no, it’s nothing like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>Richard Walker says there wasn’t really an environmental movement at this time. Maybe an oysterman was concerned about declining catches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Richard Walker:\u003c/b> The conservationists at that time would be, I think, entirely obsessed with creating the first state parks. Saving the redwoods. They’re worried about mine debris in the Central Valley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>By 1902, the dredging was done. And 30 years after the plan was first hatched, the canal filled with water. Alameda was officially an island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Residents in the city of Alameda were ready to celebrate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sounds of a marching band, crowd noise and fireworks\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>In September of 1902, there were days of fireworks, parades, brass bands, carnival acts, fancy diving and a procession of two hundred lighted boats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Things were different from what was originally envisioned, of course. For one, there was no dam to help flush water out of the estuary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/b> In my view, they didn’t build the dam because they were just tired of this whole thing, and a lot of people didn’t think the dam was going to work anyway.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>Now, more than a century later, as I walk along the canal with Alameda historian Dennis Evanosky near the Park Street Bridge, the canal water is relatively still. A few boats are docked, but none sail by. This neatly engineered waterway looks like a moat around a castle. It’s mostly used for recreation now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nate Puckett:\u003c/b> This wasn’t natural. It looks very not natural.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/b> Right? Right? Right, right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>Our question asker, Nate Puckett, has been walking with us, listening to Evanosky this whole time. He looks slightly unsettled.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nate Puckett:\u003c/b> So it sounds like the reason it’s an island was a failed idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/b> Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I would say, “The island city, sort of.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nate Puckett:\u003c/b> Yeah, yeah, the island city by accident.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/b> Right, right. Right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>Nate clarified later that he found Alameda’s island origin story “surprising.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nate Puckett:\u003c/b> You kind of always assume big projects like this are for a very clear and thought-out purpose. And to find that it was kind of an accident or the plan changed so many times is definitely surprising. Especially just, you know, because Alameda is so into being an island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>The fact that Alameda isn’t naturally an island doesn’t bother Nate Puckett too much now. After all, it’s been that way for a while, and residents here still bond over bridge and tunnel delays. And over a beer at Alameda Island Brewing Co.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>Island-themed music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>That story was produced by Pauline Bartolone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Big shout out and thanks to Liam O’Donoghue of the \u003ca href=\"https://eastbayyesterday.com/\">East Bay Yesterday podcast \u003c/a>and UC Davis geographer Javier Arbona for their help on this story. Facts in this story came from Woody Minor of the Alameda Museum and historical documents from the Army Corp of Engineers and the National Park Service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s still time to vote in our April voting round. Here are your choices:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 1:\u003c/b> I was recently at the Morcom Rose Garden in Oakland and saw three different official Oakland signs that read, “No glitter.” I would love to know what happened at the rose garden to warrant so many signs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 2:\u003c/b> Yesterday, I walked with a fellow science teacher on the Great Hwy. We commented on the blackish sand, made of iron filings. Where does the iron come from?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 3:\u003c/b> Who are the de Youngs? I think they have some crazy stories!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Vote for which question you think we should tackle next at baycurious.org. While you’re there, sign up for our monthly newsletter, ask your own question or get lost listening through the Bay Curious archive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Our show is made by:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Katrina Schwartz\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>Christopher Beale\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> Katherine Monahan\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>and me, Olivia Allen Price. Additional support from:\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Jen Chien: \u003c/b>Jen Chien\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Springer: \u003c/b>Katie Springer\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cesar Saldana: \u003c/b>Cesar Saldana\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maha Sanad: \u003c/b>Maha Sanad\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Holly Kernan:\u003c/b> Holly Kernan\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Crowd:\u003c/b> And the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll be back next week.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"excerpt": "Alameda residents fully own their island identity, but many don't know that it used to be connected to mainland Oakland.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The city of Alameda has all the sure signs of an island. To get there, you have to use a bridge, a tunnel or a boat. Locals talk about going “on and off island.” And residents, like Nate Puckett, wear Alameda-themed T-shirts that say “Islander.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t leave the island for, like, weeks,” says Puckett, who lives, works and raises two kids in the Bay Area city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But recently, Puckett’s sense of place was thrown off-kilter. He was enjoying an ice cream at a favorite local spot — Tucker’s — when he looked up at a historical map on the wall. It showed Alameda connected to the mainland. That must be wrong, he thought; Alameda is an island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the map was not wrong — it was just old. In fact, Alameda is not a natural island. And it almost never became an island at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It kind of felt like we’ve been living a lie,” Puckett says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Puckett asked Bay Curious to find out more about Alameda’s island origin story. The project took nearly 30 years to complete and had enough twists and turns to make anyone dizzy.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>When it all began\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983868\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://oaklandlibrary.org/ohc/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11983868 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Alameda1877-tweaked.jpg\" alt=\"An old map shows what is now Alameda Island as connected to the mainland.\" width=\"999\" height=\"752\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Alameda1877-tweaked.jpg 999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Alameda1877-tweaked-800x602.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Alameda1877-tweaked-160x120.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 999px) 100vw, 999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A map of Alameda from 1877 shows it as a connected peninsula, not an island. \u003ccite>(Oakland Public Library, Oakland History Center)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In the 1870s, Alameda was a big peninsula that jutted out from what is now Oakland’s Fruitvale neighborhood like an outstretched arm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back then, things were pretty quiet in that part of the East Bay (it wasn’t Oakland until later). The marshy region was not very populated; the landscape was mostly wide open fields and the estates of a few wealthy families.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Oakland’s inner harbor was nearby, and it was quickly becoming a bustling center for maritime commerce. Once the Gold Rush started, more and more ships arrived, bringing in all sorts of goods. And Oakland itself was growing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But navigation to the budding port was tricky. Boats had to traverse a wild waterway that hadn’t seen much development yet. Sediment on the harbor’s bottom would shift with the tides, causing sandbars to move in unpredictable patterns that caused problems for navigation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[The sandbars] were there on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, [and then] they’d be over here on Tuesday and Thursday,” Alameda historian Dennis Evanosky says. “It impeded the shipping traffic.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983870\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983870\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Evanosky-Puckett.jpg\" alt=\"Older man in blue sweater stands next to a younger one in brown.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1276\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Evanosky-Puckett.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Evanosky-Puckett-800x532.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Evanosky-Puckett-1020x678.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Evanosky-Puckett-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Evanosky-Puckett-1536x1021.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Dennis Evanosky (left) with Nate Puckett next to the Alameda canal. The Park Street bridge looms in the background. \u003ccite>(Pauline Bartolone/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Oakland was never going to become the shipping destination it wanted to be if the waterways remained so unpredictable and the port so difficult to reach. And Oakland had big development ambitions, says Richard Walker, a \u003ca href=\"https://geography.berkeley.edu/professor-emeritus-richard-walker\">professor emeritus in geography at UC Berkeley\u003c/a> and author of several books about California history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The sense of competition with San Francisco [was] intense,” Walker says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the late 1800s, Oakland was coming into its own politically and economically, developing its own banks, businesses and shipping companies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That grows and grows so that Oakland, by the early 20th century, is really thumbing its nose at San Francisco,” Walker says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In response to local lobbying, Congressmen worked to bring in millions of federal dollars to pay the Army Corps of Engineers to improve the harbor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since shifting sandbars on the bottom was the biggest problem, \u003ca href=\"https://tile.loc.gov/storage-services/master/pnp/habshaer/ca/ca2600/ca2606/data/ca2606data.pdf\">the initial plan\u003c/a> was to cut through the marshy area of the Alameda peninsula, where it was connected to the mainland, to create a canal. Engineers thought if they built a dam at one end, they could release powerful torrents of water through the canal to flush out built-up sediment in the harbor. That would clear the way for bigger ships to come and go more easily.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The project got the green light in the early 1870s, but over the next three decades, it hit roadblock after roadblock.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Resistance to the project\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://alamedamuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/AMQ_MAR_2019.pdf\">Eleven families owned land where the government wanted to dredge the canal\u003c/a>. Oakland officials offered families $40,000 at the time, more than $1.2 million today. But one person refused — \u003ca href=\"https://www.cohenbrayhouse.org/about-6\">A.A. Cohen, a railroad industry baron and attorney\u003c/a> who owned an estate with a 70-room mansion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They were screwing with his kingdom,” says Patty Donald, Cohen’s great-great-granddaughter and manager of the\u003ca href=\"https://www.cohenbrayhouse.org/history\"> Cohen Bray house\u003c/a>, a historic Victorian building in Oakland’s Fruitvale neighborhood. The Cohen family challenged the canal project more than once.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He was one of the most powerful people in Alameda at that time because he had bought a failing rail system,” Donald says. “He built it up in two years and created another one.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, the canal project progressed despite Cohen’s legal challenge, and by 1889 the excavation was underway.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The setbacks pile up\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Quickly, the canal project suffered another setback — flooding. The winter of 1889 was one of the wettest on record. More than 45 inches of rain fell that year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Disaster struck on a stormy night in January when Sausal Creek overflowed its banks at Fruitvale Avenue and flooded the ditch and equipment,” \u003ca href=\"https://alamedamuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/AMQ_MAR_2019.pdf\">wrote historian Woody Minor in the Alameda Museum newslette\u003c/a>r. “It took two months to pump out the water.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Next, the project’s proponents had to deal with public opinion and perhaps the very first complaints from Alamedans about commuting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People complain, ‘Well if you’re gonna have this canal here, how are we going to get home?’” Evanosky says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The dredged canal cut across one of the main thoroughfares, leading to the Alameda peninsula, disrupting traffic \u003ca href=\"https://alamedamuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/AMQ_MAR_2019.pdf\">for two years\u003c/a>. The Park Street bridge opened in 1891, and Alameda’s two other bridges, at High Street and Fruitvale Avenue, were built the following decade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If legal battles, payouts and flooding weren’t enough, there was an economic depression in the 1890s. Funding for the canal project dried up. And then, the project’s long-time champion at the Army Corp of Engineers, \u003ca href=\"https://www.spn.usace.army.mil/Portals/68/docs/History/Engineers%20at%20the%20Golden%20Gate.pdf?ver=2019-10-24-161149-027\">Major George Mendell\u003c/a>, retired.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, the nail in the coffin for the dam/canal combo plan came from \u003ca href=\"https://alamedamuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/AMQ_MAR_2019.pdf\">new research suggesting that dredging deeper in Oakland’s harbor would be more effective for boat passage\u003c/a> than this idea of flushing sediment away using a dam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While government officials debated the next steps, a partially dug, unfinished giant trench was left.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>‘Fetid water awash with dead fish’\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>At this point, 20 years after the project began, raw sewage in the area’s waterways had become a real problem. In the late 1800s, people in Oakland and Alameda started installing residential sewer systems, and the waste flowed right into Lake Merritt and the Oakland Harbor. The unfinished canal became a cesspool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Fetid water awash with dead fish lapped against the dam and seeped into the ditch, emitting a pervasive stench,” \u003ca href=\"https://alamedamuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/AMQ_MAR_2019.pdf\">wrote Minor in his history of the island\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Alameda’s health officer at the time, Dr. John T. McClean, became the biggest crusader for completing the canal. In a letter to Washington, published by the Oakland Enquirer in 1897, McLean argued that the stench from the incomplete trench had not only become offensive, but the foul water was killing fish and crabs and posed a health hazard. Better water circulation through the canal would help flush away foul substances, he argued.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, government officials soon found the money to put a massive steam shovel to work ripping through the marsh between Alameda and modern-day Oakland. They finished dredging the canal in 1902, nearly 30 years after the plan was first hatched. Alameda was officially an island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There was no dam. … but residents celebrated anyway — through days of fireworks, carnival acts and a procession of two hundred lighted boats.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>A failed idea? \u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The scale and ambition of the Alameda Island project don’t impress geographer Richard Walker. In the grand scheme of things, he says, the project was actually pretty small. There are very few parts of the San Francisco Bay that humans haven’t somehow altered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is California,” Walker says. “California [is] one of the most monumentally re-engineered landscapes on Earth.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>More than a century after the project was completed, the water in the neatly engineered tidal canal that separates Alameda from Oakland is relatively still, looking like a moat around a castle. People mostly use it for recreation now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nate Puckett says it doesn’t bother him that Alameda isn’t naturally an island. Residents here still bond over bridge and tunnel delays and over a beer at Alameda Island Brewing Company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nOlivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>One of the best parts about a deep and long-running friendship is you can poke a little fun at each other for your quirks. Like how you’re a diehard fan for a chronically losing sports team or how you put ketchup on everything – gross. For Nate Puckett, his friends rib him about how he never leaves the city of Alameda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nate Puckett:\u003c/b> So I work here, I live here, my kids go to school here. I have a 4-year-old and a 6-year-old. So I don’t leave the island for like weeks. And people make fun of me for that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Alameda is an island, in case you didn’t know, and that fact is pretty wrapped up in the identity of some people who live there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nate Puckett:\u003c/b> I have a T-shirt that says Islander. That’s, like, Alameda themed. There’s Alameda Island Brewing. Like, you talk about whether, you know, you’re on the island or not on the island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>But recently, Nate’s sense of place was thrown off-kilter. He was eating ice cream at a local spot – Tuckers. He glanced up at a historical map hanging on the wall. And there, he saw something that shook him to the core. Alameda was connected to what is now mainland Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nate Puckett:\u003c/b> It kind of felt like we’ve been all living a lie. It kind of felt like, no, that’s wrong. Alameda is an island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>But no. The map was not wrong. It was just \u003ci>old\u003c/i>. Alameda is not a natural island. And it almost never became an island at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Bay Curious theme music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>On this episode of Bay Curious, we’re going to find out how and \u003ci>why \u003c/i>Alameda was sliced off the mainland. It’s a story with enough twists and turns to make your head spin. I’m Olivia Allen Price. We’ll dive in just after this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sponsor break\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Making Alameda into an island took nearly 30 years. And in the end, the original idea for the massive excavation, didn’t quite pan out as planned. KQED Producer Pauline Bartolone tells us all about the bumpy journey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>Flooding, legal battles, an economic slump and raw sewage. They’re all part of Alameda’s island origin story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It all starts back in the 1870s, Alameda was a big peninsula, jutting out like an outstretched arm from what is now Oakland’s Fruitvale neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back then, things were pretty quiet where Alameda connected with the mainland. Not many people lived in this marshy region. Think open fields and maybe just a few estates of wealthy families.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just to the west was a waterway, the Oakland harbor, that opened up to the San Francisco Bay. And it was becoming a bustling center for maritime commerce. More and more ships were arriving since the Gold Rush, bringing all sorts of goods. But navigation in this waterway was tricky. Sediment on its floor would shift — a lot! — causing all sorts of problems for boats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music ends. We hear the sounds of street traffic and outside noises.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/b> The trouble is, there were sandbars. And there were all kinds of impediments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>Alameda historian Dennis Evanosky took me and our question-asker, Nate Puckett, on a tour along Alameda’s waterfront. He says around what is now the Port of Oakland, the waterway was wild and untouched, with sandbars that would ebb and flow with the tide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/b> They were there on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, then they’d be over here on Tuesday and Thursday, this place else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nate Puckett:\u003c/b> Oh, yeah, haha.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/b> And it impeded the shipping traffic!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>The unpredictable nature of the waterway didn’t work for the shipping industry, which wanted to get more boats into the port. Oakland had big development ambitions, says Richard Walker, a professor emeritus in geography at UC Berkeley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Richard Walker: \u003c/b>Then, the sense of competition with San Francisco is intense, even though there’s a lot of San Francisco investment in Oakland. But you start to create Oakland having its own capitalist class, its own leadership who have banks in Oakland, have businesses, you know, have shipping companies, and they actually have a local interest. And that grows and grows so that Oakland, you know, by the early 20th century, is really thumbing its nose at San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>Local Congressmen made deals to bring in millions of federal dollars to improve the harbor. Evanosky says the big idea was to dredge a canal all the way across the north side of Alameda, turning the peninsula into an island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>We hear sounds of traffic near the canal\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/b> They planned to build this tidal canal as a scouring channel. What they planned to do was build a dam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b> The dam would be built on the far east side of Alameda. And then during ebb tide, when the water is naturally flowing out to the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/b> They are going to open that dam, and we’re going to have the water to, I say, “whoosh” through the scouring channel here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b> Engineers thought this would harness the natural power of tides to flush sediment out of the Oakland estuary and toward the Bay, learning the passage for boats coming in and out of the narrow waterway.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/b> And these aren’t necessarily big, huge ships. These could be smaller ships, but they need a place to navigate and turn around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b> So, that was the plan. … in the beginning. The project got the green light in the early 1870s but had a slow start. And over the next three decades, it hit roadblock after roadblock. Early on, the government had to buy out 11 families who would lose part of their estates to the canal. They were offered $40,000 at the time, what is more than $1.2 million today. But one family refused.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patty Donald:\u003c/b> They were screwing with his kingdom. If you put it that way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>Patty Donald is the great-great-granddaughter of A.A. Cohen, a railroad industry baron and attorney who owned an estate with a 70-room mansion on Alameda. A.A. Cohen’s family challenged the canal project more than once.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Patty Donald:\u003c/b> He was one of the most powerful people in Alameda at that time because he had started, he had bought a failing rail system in 1876, I think.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>He sued to stop the canal project and lost. And it went forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>By 1889, the excavation was underway. But quickly suffered another setback. A deluge, literally. The winter that started in 1889 was one of the wettest on record. More than 45 inches of rain fell that year. That’s according to a history written by Woody Minor of the Alameda Museum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sound effect of typewriter under voice-over\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Voice actor reading:\u003c/i>\u003c/b> Disaster struck on a stormy night in January when Sausal Creek overflowed its banks at Fruitvale Avenue and flooded the ditch and equipment. It took two months to pump out the water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>Then, they had to deal with public opinion. And perhaps the very first complaints from Alameda residents about commuting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/b> They are digging this canal. And there’s a problem. People complain, well, if you’re gonna have this canal here, how are we going to get home?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>The canal dredging was disrupting traffic to one of Alameda’s main entrances, Evanosky says. So, the Park Street Bridge was built first, and then two other bridges came.. in the decade that followed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>As if legal battles, payouts and flooding weren’t enough, the canal project suffered more roadblocks in the 1890s. According to the Alameda Museum’s Woody Minor, funding dried up during an economic depression. Then, the project’s long-time champion at the Army Corps of Engineers retired.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then — this one’s big — new research suggested that dredging deeper in Oakland’s harbor would be more effective for boat passage than this idea of flushing sediment out using a dam. While government officials debated next steps, a partially dug unfinished canal was left. A big giant trench.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/b> So they had to stop. And this is all done, and they had to stop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>Now, this is where the raw sewage comes into the picture. Right around this time, people in Oakland and Alameda started installing residential sewer systems. And the waste was flowing right into Lake Merritt and the Oakland Harbor. By the Alameda Museum’s account, the waterway became a cesspool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sound effect of typewriter under voice-over\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Actor:\u003c/b> Fetid water awash with dead fish lapped against the dam and seeped into the ditch, emitting a pervasive stench.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>Alameda’s health officer became the biggest crusader for completing the canal. In 1897, he argued that the stench from the incomplete trench had not only become offensive, but the foul water was killing fish and crabs and posing a health hazard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So government officials soon found the money to put a massive steam shovel to work and finish that canal excavation once and for good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sound of a big machine starting up\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>In case you’re wondering if, during this era, anyone ever chimed in about the ecological impacts of ripping through this marshy area?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Richard Walker:\u003c/b> No, no, no, no, no, it’s nothing like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>Richard Walker says there wasn’t really an environmental movement at this time. Maybe an oysterman was concerned about declining catches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Richard Walker:\u003c/b> The conservationists at that time would be, I think, entirely obsessed with creating the first state parks. Saving the redwoods. They’re worried about mine debris in the Central Valley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>By 1902, the dredging was done. And 30 years after the plan was first hatched, the canal filled with water. Alameda was officially an island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Residents in the city of Alameda were ready to celebrate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sounds of a marching band, crowd noise and fireworks\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>In September of 1902, there were days of fireworks, parades, brass bands, carnival acts, fancy diving and a procession of two hundred lighted boats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Things were different from what was originally envisioned, of course. For one, there was no dam to help flush water out of the estuary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/b> In my view, they didn’t build the dam because they were just tired of this whole thing, and a lot of people didn’t think the dam was going to work anyway.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>Now, more than a century later, as I walk along the canal with Alameda historian Dennis Evanosky near the Park Street Bridge, the canal water is relatively still. A few boats are docked, but none sail by. This neatly engineered waterway looks like a moat around a castle. It’s mostly used for recreation now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nate Puckett:\u003c/b> This wasn’t natural. It looks very not natural.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/b> Right? Right? Right, right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>Our question asker, Nate Puckett, has been walking with us, listening to Evanosky this whole time. He looks slightly unsettled.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nate Puckett:\u003c/b> So it sounds like the reason it’s an island was a failed idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/b> Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I would say, “The island city, sort of.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nate Puckett:\u003c/b> Yeah, yeah, the island city by accident.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/b> Right, right. Right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>Nate clarified later that he found Alameda’s island origin story “surprising.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nate Puckett:\u003c/b> You kind of always assume big projects like this are for a very clear and thought-out purpose. And to find that it was kind of an accident or the plan changed so many times is definitely surprising. Especially just, you know, because Alameda is so into being an island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>The fact that Alameda isn’t naturally an island doesn’t bother Nate Puckett too much now. After all, it’s been that way for a while, and residents here still bond over bridge and tunnel delays. And over a beer at Alameda Island Brewing Co.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>Island-themed music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>That story was produced by Pauline Bartolone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Big shout out and thanks to Liam O’Donoghue of the \u003ca href=\"https://eastbayyesterday.com/\">East Bay Yesterday podcast \u003c/a>and UC Davis geographer Javier Arbona for their help on this story. Facts in this story came from Woody Minor of the Alameda Museum and historical documents from the Army Corp of Engineers and the National Park Service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s still time to vote in our April voting round. Here are your choices:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 1:\u003c/b> I was recently at the Morcom Rose Garden in Oakland and saw three different official Oakland signs that read, “No glitter.” I would love to know what happened at the rose garden to warrant so many signs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 2:\u003c/b> Yesterday, I walked with a fellow science teacher on the Great Hwy. We commented on the blackish sand, made of iron filings. Where does the iron come from?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 3:\u003c/b> Who are the de Youngs? I think they have some crazy stories!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Vote for which question you think we should tackle next at baycurious.org. While you’re there, sign up for our monthly newsletter, ask your own question or get lost listening through the Bay Curious archive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Our show is made by:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Katrina Schwartz\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>Christopher Beale\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> Katherine Monahan\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>and me, Olivia Allen Price. Additional support from:\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Jen Chien: \u003c/b>Jen Chien\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Springer: \u003c/b>Katie Springer\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cesar Saldana: \u003c/b>Cesar Saldana\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maha Sanad: \u003c/b>Maha Sanad\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Holly Kernan:\u003c/b> Holly Kernan\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Crowd:\u003c/b> And the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll be back next week.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "eucalyptus-how-californias-most-hated-tree-took-root-2",
"title": "Eucalyptus: How California's Most Hated Tree Took Root",
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"headTitle": "Eucalyptus: How California’s Most Hated Tree Took Root | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a> \u003cem>This article was first published in February 1, 2018, and was updated on April 11, 2024. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Depending on whom you ask, eucalyptus trees are either an icon in California or a fire-prone scourge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious heard from two hikers wanting to know about the past and future of California’s eucalyptus trees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“How did all of this eucalyptus get to the Bay Area?” asked Christian Wagner, a tech worker who lives in Pleasanton.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I know that they’re invasive, so what do we do about that? Are they worth keeping around? Or do we need to get rid of them and replace them with something else?” wondered Julie Bergen, an occupational therapist from Alameda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reaching heights of more than 100 feet, the main kind of eucalyptus you’re likely to see here is Tasmanian blue gum, eucalyptus globulus. They feature sickle-shaped leaves hanging from high branches, and deciduous bark that is forever peeling from their shaggy trunks. Some people experience the smell of eucalyptus as medicinal; others say the trees just smell like California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11647124\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11647124 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29068_eucalyptusgrove7-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"The trees are deciduous, shedding their bark every year.\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29068_eucalyptusgrove7-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29068_eucalyptusgrove7-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29068_eucalyptusgrove7-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29068_eucalyptusgrove7-1920x1280.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29068_eucalyptusgrove7-1180x787.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29068_eucalyptusgrove7-960x640.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29068_eucalyptusgrove7-240x160.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29068_eucalyptusgrove7-375x250.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29068_eucalyptusgrove7-520x347.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The trees are deciduous, shedding their bark every year. \u003ccite>(Samantha Shanahan/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>So how did eucalyptus trees get here?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“They came here as envelopes of seeds on boats coming to California in the 1850s,” explains Jared Farmer, author of \u003ca href=\"https://jaredfarmer.net/books/trees-in-paradise/\">“Trees In Paradise: A California History.”\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During the Gold Rush, Australians were among the throngs flocking to a place where wood was in short supply.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This was the era of wood power,” Farmer says. “Wood was used for almost everything. For energy, of course, but also for building every city, for moving things around, all the things where today we use concrete and plastic and steel.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Besides the practical need to plant more trees, settlers who were used to dense forests also felt that the lack of trees in California’s grassy, marshy, scrubby landscape made it feel incomplete. So within a few years, nurseries in San Francisco were selling young eucalyptus grown from seed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The trees grew remarkably quickly here, even in poor soil.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In an average rainfall year here in California, these trees probably put on 4 to 6 feet in height and maybe, in their early growth years, a half-inch to an inch in diameter,” says Joe McBride, a UC Berkeley professor emeritus of landscape architecture and environmental planning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Beyond the drive to change the landscape and provide firewood, Californians also planted eucalyptus (mainly blue gum) to serve as windbreaks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11647125\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11647125 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29071_eucalyptusgrove10-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"Eucalyptus trees grow fast, sometimes putting on four to six feet in height in a single year.\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29071_eucalyptusgrove10-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29071_eucalyptusgrove10-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29071_eucalyptusgrove10-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29071_eucalyptusgrove10-1920x1280.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29071_eucalyptusgrove10-1180x787.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29071_eucalyptusgrove10-960x640.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29071_eucalyptusgrove10-240x160.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29071_eucalyptusgrove10-375x250.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29071_eucalyptusgrove10-520x347.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Eucalyptus trees grow fast, sometimes putting on 4 to 6 feet in height in a single year. \u003ccite>(Samantha Shanahan/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In fact, that was the original purpose of what’s now the largest, densest stand of blue gum eucalyptus in the world, on campus at Berkeley, says McBride. It was planted around 140 years ago to provide a windbreak for an old cinder running track — to keep its fine ashen gravel from blowing into athletes’ faces.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The trees’ success in California owed to a lack of enemies here. Because they were grown from seed, they hadn’t brought along any of the pests or pathogens they contend with back in Australia.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>An early 20th century boom\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Within a few decades of its arrival, many Californians grew disenchanted with eucalyptus. Blue gum proved terrible for woodworking — the wood often split and cracked, making it a poor choice for railroad ties. The trees also proved thirsty enough to drain nearby wells.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If you go back to California farm journals of the 1870s, ’80s, ’90s, there’s just report after report of disappointment, like ‘these trees are no good,’ ” says Farmer, the historian.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But things changed in the early 20th century when U.S. Forest Service officials grew concerned about a looming timber famine. They feared forests in the eastern United States had been overexploited and wouldn’t grow back, and predicted the supply of hardwood would dwindle over the next 15 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11647127\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11647127 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29072_eucalyptusgrove11-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"The bark sheds often, peeling in large strips.\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29072_eucalyptusgrove11-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29072_eucalyptusgrove11-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29072_eucalyptusgrove11-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29072_eucalyptusgrove11-1920x1280.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29072_eucalyptusgrove11-1180x787.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29072_eucalyptusgrove11-960x640.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29072_eucalyptusgrove11-240x160.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29072_eucalyptusgrove11-375x250.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29072_eucalyptusgrove11-520x347.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The bark sheds often, peeling in large strips. \u003ccite>(Samantha Shanahan/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Investors saw an opportunity: California had a tree capable of growing to full size within that time frame. If hardwood was about to be scarce, they reasoned, such trees could be in high demand and yield sizable returns within a few short years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These people, Farmer says, were not reading blue gum’s lousy reviews in old farm reports. “And even if they did read them, maybe they wouldn’t care because they just wanted to make a buck; they were just flipping land.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This played out as a speculative frenzy — a bubble. Boosters began selling plantations dense with eucalyptus — hundreds of trees per acre. Farmer writes in his book that claims were made like: “Forests Grown While You Wait,” and “Absolute Security and Absolute Certainty.” In just a few years, millions of blue gums were planted from Southern California up to Mendocino.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The anticipated timber famine never came to pass. Forests further east proved more resilient than expected, and the need was offset by concrete, steel and imports, like mahogany. Ultimately, the thousands of acres of eucalyptus planted around California were not even worth cutting down. Much of what you see today is a century-old abandoned crop.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What’s fire got to do with it?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Eucalyptus trees have lovers and haters in California. A big part of the debate over whether the trees should be allowed to persist here traces back to the East Bay firestorm of 1991, which left 25 people dead and thousands homeless. Vast swaths of eucalyptus burned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People at the time, I don’t think, associated that with a planted plantation; it was just a eucalyptus forest,” says CalPoly botanist Jenn Yost. “And then when the fire came through — I mean that fire came through so fast and so hot and so many people lost their homes that it was a natural reaction to hate blue gums at that point.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Many experts say that eucalyptus trees worsen the fire threat for a few reasons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>The bark they shed dries out quickly and creates fuel.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Once a fire starts, that bark easily catches the wind and can be blown miles away, spreading the fire quickly.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Eucalyptus trees are really oily. The oil is actually what gives off that intense fragrance they’re known for. But in a fire, that oil also makes them flammable.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>But Eucalyptus trees have supporters too, who argue other plants in their place would also burn. A few years ago, federal funding to cut down trees in the East Bay hills was \u003ca href=\"http://www.berkeleyside.com/2016/09/19/fema-pulls-funding-for-tree-clearing-in-berkeley-hills/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">rescinded\u003c/a>, after \u003ca href=\"http://www.berkeleyside.com/2015/07/18/in-berkeley-protesters-strip-naked-to-try-to-save-trees/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">protesters\u003c/a> got naked and hugged the eucalyptus trees on campus at Cal. \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But after a nearly decade-long legal battle, a court gave UC Berkeley the go-ahead to cut. Still, it’s a drop in the bucket when you think about how many of these trees we have in California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11647123\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 640px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-large wp-image-11647123\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29066_eucalyptusgrove2-1020x1530.jpg\" alt=\"To some, the scent of eucalyptus trees is simply the scent of California.\" width=\"640\" height=\"960\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29066_eucalyptusgrove2-1020x1530.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29066_eucalyptusgrove2-160x240.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29066_eucalyptusgrove2-800x1200.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29066_eucalyptusgrove2-1920x2880.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29066_eucalyptusgrove2-1180x1770.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29066_eucalyptusgrove2-960x1440.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29066_eucalyptusgrove2-240x360.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29066_eucalyptusgrove2-375x563.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29066_eucalyptusgrove2-520x780.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 640px) 100vw, 640px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">To some, the scent of eucalyptus trees is simply the scent of California. \u003ccite>(Samantha Shanahan/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Are they here to stay?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Blue gums can’t reproduce on their own just anywhere in California; Yost says they need year-round moisture. They’re able to regenerate in places like California’s coastal fog belt, but elsewhere “there are some plantations that don’t reproduce at all. When you go there, the trees are all in their rows, there’s few saplings anywhere to be seen, and those trees are just getting older.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not all non-native plants capable of reproducing on their own do it enough to have an ecological impact, Yost says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“As soon as it starts outcompeting native species or fundamentally changing the environment so that native species can’t grow there, we would consider that an invasive species,” she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Blue gum is \u003ca href=\"http://www.cal-ipc.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Cal-IPC_News_Summer2014-6.pdf#page=10\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">classified\u003c/a> as a “moderate” invasive, putting it a \u003ca href=\"http://www.cal-ipc.org/plants/inventory/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">tier\u003c/a> below such uncharismatic weeds as yellow star-thistle and medusahead. McBride, the retired Berkeley professor, says “although there’s been marginal expansion of some eucalyptus stands, it’s really not well adapted for long-distance dispersal. It hasn’t really spread very much on its own.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousbug]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With an estimated 40,000 acres of unharvested eucalyptus planted across the state, the trees aren’t easy to get rid of. Slicing down a large blue gum near a building can require a crane, at an expense of thousands of dollars. And keeping them from resprouting can also be its own chore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Long term, as the climate changes over the coming decades, it’s possible the aging eucalyptus groves that don’t get enough water to reproduce will begin to die.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then again, if the state becomes \u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/science/2015/02/12/new-study-global-warming-will-bring-megadroughts-to-the-west/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">hotter and drier\u003c/a>, it may become the type of place where some Australian species are able to thrive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Do you see any koala bears?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I wish.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>[sound of bark crunching underfoot]\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Should we tell people where we are?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, so we are at the Mount Sutro Open Space Reserve. Which has gotta be pretty close to the geographic center of San Francisco, would you imagine, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think that’s fair. And we are surrounded by a ton of what look to be ancient eucalyptus trees.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> If you’re not familiar with eucalyptus trees, they’re very tall. How tall would you say those are?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’ve seen some today over a hundred feet, for sure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Definitely. And they have this weird bark, where the underpart of the tree is really smooth but their bark on the outside flakes off.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It’s deciduous, but it leaves this tan, almost naked-looking trunk behind.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And these would not be good climbing trees.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah, most of the branches, like, what’s the lowest branch on that one? It’s like 30 feet up, how are you gonna climb that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One thing I think a lot of people remark about eucalyptus trees in the smell.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>(inhale, exhale)\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some people hate it. But a couple people I talked to for this story—they say these trees just smell like California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Which is pretty weird for a tree from Australia! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Theme music\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I’m Olivia Allen-Price, and this is Bay Curious, where we answer your questions about the Bay Area. On this episode, science writer Daniel Potter and I take a closer look at Eucalyptus Trees.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They have lovers—and haters.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And there are giant stands of them throughout our region. This story first ran in 2018, but your questions about eucalyptus trees have kept on coming! So we thought it was time to freshen up this episode with some new information. We’ll get to it right after this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Sponsor Message\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Alright! Let’s get to this week’s question, shall we? Or should I say \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">QUESTIONS\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> because we heard from two different listeners on this one…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christian Wagner:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> How did all of this eucalyptus get to the Bay Area?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s Christian Wagner. He’s noticed lots of eucalyptus trees as he’s out and about because he likes hiking.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> –as does Julie Bergen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Bergen:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And I know that they’re invasive, so what do we do about that? Are they worth keeping around? Or do we need to get rid of them and replace them with something else?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Christian and Julie both wonder about eucalyptus’ past—and its future here. Some people argue the trees are bad for \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">native\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> plant life—and a fire hazard—and need to go. So. Science writer Daniel Potter!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Howdy.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Where do we begin unraveling this one?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> In a forest. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Albany Hill outdoor ambi\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Let’s start with one on Albany Hill in the East Bay. You can see it from I-80, near the racetrack. That’s where I talked to this guy…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jared Farmer: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">My name is Jared Farmer, I’m a professor of history at Stony Brook University, and the author of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Trees In Paradise: A California History\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That book includes a solid hundred pages on eucalyptus trees in California, so I asked Farmer how they got here:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jared Farmer: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They came here as envelopes of seeds on boats in the 1850s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He says the Gold Rush drew people from all over—including from Australia. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sea shanty music …“In South Australia I was born, heed away all the way”\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And they were coming to a place where wood was in short supply. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jared Farmer: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What we think of today as like say native California, Indigenous California, or pre-contact California was far more woody than wooded. Actually it was far more land that was chaparral and savanna and wetland and marshland than timberland…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> People settling here wanted to plant trees. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you’re used to trees, the California landscape might feel… incomplete without them. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And then there were the practical concerns, since Californians were quickly downing what trees \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">were \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jared Farmer: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This was course just the era of wood power—wood was used for almost everything. For energy of course but also for building every city, for moving things around, all the things today we use concrete and plastic and steel.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So by the 1850s you could buy young eucalyptus in nurseries in San Francisco. It was grown here from seed, which meant it didn’t bring along any of the usual bugs or pathogens it faces back home. The lack of pests made it easy for these trees to grow really tall, really fast.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>(Berkeley outdoor ambi)\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe McBride:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I would say in an average rainfall year here in California, these trees probably put on four to six feet in height.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Joe McBride, professor emeritus of landscape architecture and environmental planning at UC Berkeley. I met him in a towering stand of ancient eucalyptus on campus.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe McBride: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">These trees are now over 200 feet tall, and the largest ones are approaching six feet in diameter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Near the present-day Life Sciences building there used to be a cinder running track—picture fine ashen gravel. A hundred and forty years ago \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">…\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> at a fabled track meet with Stanford … supposedly the wind was so bad it blew cinder in everyone’s faces and the Stanford coach took his team home—track meet \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">over\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe McBride:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> As a result of that, the campus planted this grove of eucalyptus trees as a windbreak, to prevent the wind from blowing the cinders into other athletes eyes in the future. This is the largest, densest stand of blue gum eucalyptus in the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Tell us what that is— blue gum eucalyptus…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So, the genus eucalyptus includes hundreds of species—some more like shrubs than giant trees. A lot were tried out here, but the main one today is Tasmanian blue gum, eucalyptus globulus. Side note: apparently even botanists can’t always tell what species they’re looking at without climbing way up to check out the fruit… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So for a time these trees were planted on purpose – but many people came to hate them. What changed?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jared Farmer:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> If you go back to California farm journals of the 1870s, 80s, 90s, there’s report after report of disappointment, like these trees are no good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s Jared Farmer, the historian again. It turns out while our blue gum gets tall real fast, it’s not ideal for woodworking—it splits and cracks and doesn’t hold up if you’re making railroad ties. It also sucks up a lot of water, which is handy if you’re trying to drain swampland, but less handy if your well is nearby. People were kinda over it. Until!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe McBride: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">At the turn of the 20\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">th\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> century, we were faced with a crisis in terms of hardwood forest that had been cut over in the eastern United States.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 1907, the U.S. Forest Service predicted a looming hardwood famine. People thought there was only about a 15-year supply before we ran out of usable forest. That gave eucalyptus boosters an idea: plant now, and fast-growing blue gums could be big enough to harvest once the famine hits.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe McBride: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Here in the Bay Area, for $100 you could buy an acre of land… planting those trees on 6 by 6 spacing, about 1,200 trees per acre. So they sold lots of these on a speculative basis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This became a frenzy—a bubble. Companies suckered investors with claims like \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci>“\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Forests Grown While You Wait” and “Absolute Security and Absolute Certainty.” Within a few years, thousands of acres were bought up and planted with eucalyptus, from Southern California up to Mendocino.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Wait, didn’t we just say blue gum was terrible for woodworking? Why was everyone still planting it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> In his book, Farmer gives a few reasons: blue gum was familiar, seeds were everywhere, it could grow in lousy soil—plus a blend of historical ignorance and artful deception.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jared Farmer:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> In part because these people were not reading farm reports from the 1870s and 1880s, and even if they did read them maybe they wouldn’t care because they just wanted to make a buck, they were just flipping land.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Fears of a hardwood famine ultimately proved overblown. Concrete and steel became cheaper, forests further east recovered, and people started making furniture from imported wood like mahogany instead. California’s eucalyptus trees weren’t even worth cutting down—so there they stand. They’re like century-old abandoned crops. Farmer describes their presence here as a beautiful mistake. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That brings us to the second half of this week’s question from Julie and Christian:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Bergen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I know that they’re invasive, so what do we do about that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christian Wagner: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To what extent is it sort of here to stay?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I took this question to Jenn Yost, a botanist at CalPoly. While some people see California’s eucalyptus trees as a heinous invasive species and want them gone, Yost was careful to delineate between \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">non-native\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">—which these trees definitely are—and \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">invasive\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jenn Yost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Just because something reproduces a little bit, sometimes it doesn’t do it enough where it has an ecological impact. And as soon as it starts outcompeting native species or fundamentally changing the environment so that native species can’t grow there, we would consider that an invasive species.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">While many kinds of eucalyptus have been tried out in California, only \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">two\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> are good enough at reproducing here to be considered \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">invasive\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: the red gum and the blue gum. And those don’t seem able to reproduce just \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">anywhere\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. In some drier parts of the state, the old plantations aren’t spreading.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jenn Yost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> You see blue gums being weedy and really reproducing on their own in areas that have summer moisture, and that’s usually in the form of fog. Or you see them being weedy in places with year-round water, like irrigation ditches or places with seeps.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Blue gum is classified as a “moderate invasive.” Compared to other, faster-moving weeds, it’s not California’s most-wanted ravaging the countryside. Yost attributes a lot of the current resentment to the historic 1991 fire in the East Bay hills, where tons of eucalyptus burned.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jenn Yost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> People at the time I don’t think associated that with a planted plantation; it was just a eucalyptus forest. And then when the fire came through—I mean that fire came through so fast and so hot and so many people lost their homes that it was a natural reaction to hate blue gums at that point.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Archival tape: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Pushed by 30 mile per hour winds, fire swept down the Oakland Berkeley hills destroying everything in its path.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The East Bay Hills fire was hugely devastating… 25 people died and thousands were left homeless. Many experts say that eucalyptus trees worsen the fire threat for a few reasons… The bark they shed dries out quickly and creates fuel…a lot of fuel. Once a fire starts, that bark easily catches the wind and can be blown miles away, spreading the fire quickly. Also: Eucalyptus trees are really oily. The oil is actually what gives off that intense fragrance they’re known for. But in a fire, that oil also makes them flammable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Other folks argue different plants in their place would also burn. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is an entrenched debate! A few years ago there was federal fire-prevention funding to cut down trees in those same hills, and people protested. Folks got naked and hugged the blue gums on campus at Berkeley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> But after a nearly decade-long legal battle, a court gave UC Berkeley the go-ahead to cut down dozens of acres of Eucalyptus last year. Still, it’s a drop in the bucket when you think about how many of these trees we have in California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yost estimates there’s something like 40 thousand acres of unharvested crops in the state. It’s not hard to extrapolate upwards of ten million trees statewide. Cutting each one down takes time and money.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So really the question of whether eucalyptus is going away comes down to who’s backyard it’s in. Can they afford to cut the trees down? Is the political will there to do it? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So that’s where things are. What did our question askers think? Christian and Julie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Bergen:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That was absolutely fascinating. I did not know that the history was even that rich.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Christian Wagner: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I have to say I love the idea that a lot of what we see was a get-rich-quick scheme. Because that is just a theme that happens so often in America and in California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So often to our detriment. Science Writer Daniel Potter, thanks for stomping around so many forests for us this week. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Happy to do it!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">music\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A note: A few of the sources quoted in his story have changed jobs since they were first interviewed in 2018.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you’ve ever wondered what all goes into making a Bay Curious story sound the way it does … join producer Katrina Schwartz and I TONIGHT, April 11 for our talk: Elevating Audio Stories with Sound for the PRX Podcast Garage. We’ll be talking through how we use music, sound effects, archival material, narration and more to bring the Bay Curious podcast to life. Join us in person at KQED’s Headquarters, or on the livestream. Tickets are free if you use the code “baycurious.” Grab yours at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcastgarage\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">kqed.org/podcastgarage\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christian Wagner:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at KQED. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a> \u003cem>This article was first published in February 1, 2018, and was updated on April 11, 2024. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Depending on whom you ask, eucalyptus trees are either an icon in California or a fire-prone scourge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious heard from two hikers wanting to know about the past and future of California’s eucalyptus trees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“How did all of this eucalyptus get to the Bay Area?” asked Christian Wagner, a tech worker who lives in Pleasanton.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I know that they’re invasive, so what do we do about that? Are they worth keeping around? Or do we need to get rid of them and replace them with something else?” wondered Julie Bergen, an occupational therapist from Alameda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reaching heights of more than 100 feet, the main kind of eucalyptus you’re likely to see here is Tasmanian blue gum, eucalyptus globulus. They feature sickle-shaped leaves hanging from high branches, and deciduous bark that is forever peeling from their shaggy trunks. Some people experience the smell of eucalyptus as medicinal; others say the trees just smell like California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11647124\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11647124 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29068_eucalyptusgrove7-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"The trees are deciduous, shedding their bark every year.\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29068_eucalyptusgrove7-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29068_eucalyptusgrove7-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29068_eucalyptusgrove7-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29068_eucalyptusgrove7-1920x1280.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29068_eucalyptusgrove7-1180x787.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29068_eucalyptusgrove7-960x640.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29068_eucalyptusgrove7-240x160.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29068_eucalyptusgrove7-375x250.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29068_eucalyptusgrove7-520x347.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The trees are deciduous, shedding their bark every year. \u003ccite>(Samantha Shanahan/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>So how did eucalyptus trees get here?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“They came here as envelopes of seeds on boats coming to California in the 1850s,” explains Jared Farmer, author of \u003ca href=\"https://jaredfarmer.net/books/trees-in-paradise/\">“Trees In Paradise: A California History.”\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During the Gold Rush, Australians were among the throngs flocking to a place where wood was in short supply.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This was the era of wood power,” Farmer says. “Wood was used for almost everything. For energy, of course, but also for building every city, for moving things around, all the things where today we use concrete and plastic and steel.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Besides the practical need to plant more trees, settlers who were used to dense forests also felt that the lack of trees in California’s grassy, marshy, scrubby landscape made it feel incomplete. So within a few years, nurseries in San Francisco were selling young eucalyptus grown from seed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The trees grew remarkably quickly here, even in poor soil.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In an average rainfall year here in California, these trees probably put on 4 to 6 feet in height and maybe, in their early growth years, a half-inch to an inch in diameter,” says Joe McBride, a UC Berkeley professor emeritus of landscape architecture and environmental planning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Beyond the drive to change the landscape and provide firewood, Californians also planted eucalyptus (mainly blue gum) to serve as windbreaks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11647125\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11647125 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29071_eucalyptusgrove10-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"Eucalyptus trees grow fast, sometimes putting on four to six feet in height in a single year.\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29071_eucalyptusgrove10-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29071_eucalyptusgrove10-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29071_eucalyptusgrove10-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29071_eucalyptusgrove10-1920x1280.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29071_eucalyptusgrove10-1180x787.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29071_eucalyptusgrove10-960x640.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29071_eucalyptusgrove10-240x160.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29071_eucalyptusgrove10-375x250.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29071_eucalyptusgrove10-520x347.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Eucalyptus trees grow fast, sometimes putting on 4 to 6 feet in height in a single year. \u003ccite>(Samantha Shanahan/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In fact, that was the original purpose of what’s now the largest, densest stand of blue gum eucalyptus in the world, on campus at Berkeley, says McBride. It was planted around 140 years ago to provide a windbreak for an old cinder running track — to keep its fine ashen gravel from blowing into athletes’ faces.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The trees’ success in California owed to a lack of enemies here. Because they were grown from seed, they hadn’t brought along any of the pests or pathogens they contend with back in Australia.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>An early 20th century boom\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Within a few decades of its arrival, many Californians grew disenchanted with eucalyptus. Blue gum proved terrible for woodworking — the wood often split and cracked, making it a poor choice for railroad ties. The trees also proved thirsty enough to drain nearby wells.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If you go back to California farm journals of the 1870s, ’80s, ’90s, there’s just report after report of disappointment, like ‘these trees are no good,’ ” says Farmer, the historian.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But things changed in the early 20th century when U.S. Forest Service officials grew concerned about a looming timber famine. They feared forests in the eastern United States had been overexploited and wouldn’t grow back, and predicted the supply of hardwood would dwindle over the next 15 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11647127\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11647127 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29072_eucalyptusgrove11-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"The bark sheds often, peeling in large strips.\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29072_eucalyptusgrove11-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29072_eucalyptusgrove11-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29072_eucalyptusgrove11-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29072_eucalyptusgrove11-1920x1280.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29072_eucalyptusgrove11-1180x787.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29072_eucalyptusgrove11-960x640.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29072_eucalyptusgrove11-240x160.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29072_eucalyptusgrove11-375x250.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29072_eucalyptusgrove11-520x347.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The bark sheds often, peeling in large strips. \u003ccite>(Samantha Shanahan/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Investors saw an opportunity: California had a tree capable of growing to full size within that time frame. If hardwood was about to be scarce, they reasoned, such trees could be in high demand and yield sizable returns within a few short years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These people, Farmer says, were not reading blue gum’s lousy reviews in old farm reports. “And even if they did read them, maybe they wouldn’t care because they just wanted to make a buck; they were just flipping land.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This played out as a speculative frenzy — a bubble. Boosters began selling plantations dense with eucalyptus — hundreds of trees per acre. Farmer writes in his book that claims were made like: “Forests Grown While You Wait,” and “Absolute Security and Absolute Certainty.” In just a few years, millions of blue gums were planted from Southern California up to Mendocino.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The anticipated timber famine never came to pass. Forests further east proved more resilient than expected, and the need was offset by concrete, steel and imports, like mahogany. Ultimately, the thousands of acres of eucalyptus planted around California were not even worth cutting down. Much of what you see today is a century-old abandoned crop.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What’s fire got to do with it?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Eucalyptus trees have lovers and haters in California. A big part of the debate over whether the trees should be allowed to persist here traces back to the East Bay firestorm of 1991, which left 25 people dead and thousands homeless. Vast swaths of eucalyptus burned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People at the time, I don’t think, associated that with a planted plantation; it was just a eucalyptus forest,” says CalPoly botanist Jenn Yost. “And then when the fire came through — I mean that fire came through so fast and so hot and so many people lost their homes that it was a natural reaction to hate blue gums at that point.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Many experts say that eucalyptus trees worsen the fire threat for a few reasons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>The bark they shed dries out quickly and creates fuel.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Once a fire starts, that bark easily catches the wind and can be blown miles away, spreading the fire quickly.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Eucalyptus trees are really oily. The oil is actually what gives off that intense fragrance they’re known for. But in a fire, that oil also makes them flammable.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>But Eucalyptus trees have supporters too, who argue other plants in their place would also burn. A few years ago, federal funding to cut down trees in the East Bay hills was \u003ca href=\"http://www.berkeleyside.com/2016/09/19/fema-pulls-funding-for-tree-clearing-in-berkeley-hills/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">rescinded\u003c/a>, after \u003ca href=\"http://www.berkeleyside.com/2015/07/18/in-berkeley-protesters-strip-naked-to-try-to-save-trees/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">protesters\u003c/a> got naked and hugged the eucalyptus trees on campus at Cal. \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But after a nearly decade-long legal battle, a court gave UC Berkeley the go-ahead to cut. Still, it’s a drop in the bucket when you think about how many of these trees we have in California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11647123\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 640px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-large wp-image-11647123\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29066_eucalyptusgrove2-1020x1530.jpg\" alt=\"To some, the scent of eucalyptus trees is simply the scent of California.\" width=\"640\" height=\"960\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29066_eucalyptusgrove2-1020x1530.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29066_eucalyptusgrove2-160x240.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29066_eucalyptusgrove2-800x1200.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29066_eucalyptusgrove2-1920x2880.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29066_eucalyptusgrove2-1180x1770.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29066_eucalyptusgrove2-960x1440.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29066_eucalyptusgrove2-240x360.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29066_eucalyptusgrove2-375x563.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/RS29066_eucalyptusgrove2-520x780.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 640px) 100vw, 640px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">To some, the scent of eucalyptus trees is simply the scent of California. \u003ccite>(Samantha Shanahan/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Are they here to stay?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Blue gums can’t reproduce on their own just anywhere in California; Yost says they need year-round moisture. They’re able to regenerate in places like California’s coastal fog belt, but elsewhere “there are some plantations that don’t reproduce at all. When you go there, the trees are all in their rows, there’s few saplings anywhere to be seen, and those trees are just getting older.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not all non-native plants capable of reproducing on their own do it enough to have an ecological impact, Yost says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“As soon as it starts outcompeting native species or fundamentally changing the environment so that native species can’t grow there, we would consider that an invasive species,” she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Blue gum is \u003ca href=\"http://www.cal-ipc.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Cal-IPC_News_Summer2014-6.pdf#page=10\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">classified\u003c/a> as a “moderate” invasive, putting it a \u003ca href=\"http://www.cal-ipc.org/plants/inventory/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">tier\u003c/a> below such uncharismatic weeds as yellow star-thistle and medusahead. McBride, the retired Berkeley professor, says “although there’s been marginal expansion of some eucalyptus stands, it’s really not well adapted for long-distance dispersal. It hasn’t really spread very much on its own.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n What do you wonder about the Bay Area, its culture or people that you want KQED to investigate?\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Ask Bay Curious.\u003c/a>\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With an estimated 40,000 acres of unharvested eucalyptus planted across the state, the trees aren’t easy to get rid of. Slicing down a large blue gum near a building can require a crane, at an expense of thousands of dollars. And keeping them from resprouting can also be its own chore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Long term, as the climate changes over the coming decades, it’s possible the aging eucalyptus groves that don’t get enough water to reproduce will begin to die.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then again, if the state becomes \u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/science/2015/02/12/new-study-global-warming-will-bring-megadroughts-to-the-west/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">hotter and drier\u003c/a>, it may become the type of place where some Australian species are able to thrive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Do you see any koala bears?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I wish.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>[sound of bark crunching underfoot]\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Should we tell people where we are?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, so we are at the Mount Sutro Open Space Reserve. Which has gotta be pretty close to the geographic center of San Francisco, would you imagine, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think that’s fair. And we are surrounded by a ton of what look to be ancient eucalyptus trees.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> If you’re not familiar with eucalyptus trees, they’re very tall. How tall would you say those are?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’ve seen some today over a hundred feet, for sure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Definitely. And they have this weird bark, where the underpart of the tree is really smooth but their bark on the outside flakes off.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It’s deciduous, but it leaves this tan, almost naked-looking trunk behind.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And these would not be good climbing trees.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah, most of the branches, like, what’s the lowest branch on that one? It’s like 30 feet up, how are you gonna climb that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One thing I think a lot of people remark about eucalyptus trees in the smell.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>(inhale, exhale)\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some people hate it. But a couple people I talked to for this story—they say these trees just smell like California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Which is pretty weird for a tree from Australia! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Theme music\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I’m Olivia Allen-Price, and this is Bay Curious, where we answer your questions about the Bay Area. On this episode, science writer Daniel Potter and I take a closer look at Eucalyptus Trees.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They have lovers—and haters.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And there are giant stands of them throughout our region. This story first ran in 2018, but your questions about eucalyptus trees have kept on coming! So we thought it was time to freshen up this episode with some new information. We’ll get to it right after this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Sponsor Message\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Alright! Let’s get to this week’s question, shall we? Or should I say \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">QUESTIONS\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> because we heard from two different listeners on this one…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christian Wagner:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> How did all of this eucalyptus get to the Bay Area?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s Christian Wagner. He’s noticed lots of eucalyptus trees as he’s out and about because he likes hiking.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> –as does Julie Bergen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Bergen:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And I know that they’re invasive, so what do we do about that? Are they worth keeping around? Or do we need to get rid of them and replace them with something else?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Christian and Julie both wonder about eucalyptus’ past—and its future here. Some people argue the trees are bad for \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">native\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> plant life—and a fire hazard—and need to go. So. Science writer Daniel Potter!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Howdy.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Where do we begin unraveling this one?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> In a forest. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Albany Hill outdoor ambi\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Let’s start with one on Albany Hill in the East Bay. You can see it from I-80, near the racetrack. That’s where I talked to this guy…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jared Farmer: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">My name is Jared Farmer, I’m a professor of history at Stony Brook University, and the author of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Trees In Paradise: A California History\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That book includes a solid hundred pages on eucalyptus trees in California, so I asked Farmer how they got here:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jared Farmer: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They came here as envelopes of seeds on boats in the 1850s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He says the Gold Rush drew people from all over—including from Australia. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sea shanty music …“In South Australia I was born, heed away all the way”\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And they were coming to a place where wood was in short supply. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jared Farmer: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What we think of today as like say native California, Indigenous California, or pre-contact California was far more woody than wooded. Actually it was far more land that was chaparral and savanna and wetland and marshland than timberland…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> People settling here wanted to plant trees. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you’re used to trees, the California landscape might feel… incomplete without them. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And then there were the practical concerns, since Californians were quickly downing what trees \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">were \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jared Farmer: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This was course just the era of wood power—wood was used for almost everything. For energy of course but also for building every city, for moving things around, all the things today we use concrete and plastic and steel.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So by the 1850s you could buy young eucalyptus in nurseries in San Francisco. It was grown here from seed, which meant it didn’t bring along any of the usual bugs or pathogens it faces back home. The lack of pests made it easy for these trees to grow really tall, really fast.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>(Berkeley outdoor ambi)\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe McBride:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I would say in an average rainfall year here in California, these trees probably put on four to six feet in height.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Joe McBride, professor emeritus of landscape architecture and environmental planning at UC Berkeley. I met him in a towering stand of ancient eucalyptus on campus.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe McBride: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">These trees are now over 200 feet tall, and the largest ones are approaching six feet in diameter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Near the present-day Life Sciences building there used to be a cinder running track—picture fine ashen gravel. A hundred and forty years ago \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">…\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> at a fabled track meet with Stanford … supposedly the wind was so bad it blew cinder in everyone’s faces and the Stanford coach took his team home—track meet \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">over\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe McBride:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> As a result of that, the campus planted this grove of eucalyptus trees as a windbreak, to prevent the wind from blowing the cinders into other athletes eyes in the future. This is the largest, densest stand of blue gum eucalyptus in the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Tell us what that is— blue gum eucalyptus…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So, the genus eucalyptus includes hundreds of species—some more like shrubs than giant trees. A lot were tried out here, but the main one today is Tasmanian blue gum, eucalyptus globulus. Side note: apparently even botanists can’t always tell what species they’re looking at without climbing way up to check out the fruit… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So for a time these trees were planted on purpose – but many people came to hate them. What changed?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jared Farmer:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> If you go back to California farm journals of the 1870s, 80s, 90s, there’s report after report of disappointment, like these trees are no good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s Jared Farmer, the historian again. It turns out while our blue gum gets tall real fast, it’s not ideal for woodworking—it splits and cracks and doesn’t hold up if you’re making railroad ties. It also sucks up a lot of water, which is handy if you’re trying to drain swampland, but less handy if your well is nearby. People were kinda over it. Until!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe McBride: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">At the turn of the 20\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">th\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> century, we were faced with a crisis in terms of hardwood forest that had been cut over in the eastern United States.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 1907, the U.S. Forest Service predicted a looming hardwood famine. People thought there was only about a 15-year supply before we ran out of usable forest. That gave eucalyptus boosters an idea: plant now, and fast-growing blue gums could be big enough to harvest once the famine hits.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe McBride: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Here in the Bay Area, for $100 you could buy an acre of land… planting those trees on 6 by 6 spacing, about 1,200 trees per acre. So they sold lots of these on a speculative basis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This became a frenzy—a bubble. Companies suckered investors with claims like \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci>“\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Forests Grown While You Wait” and “Absolute Security and Absolute Certainty.” Within a few years, thousands of acres were bought up and planted with eucalyptus, from Southern California up to Mendocino.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Wait, didn’t we just say blue gum was terrible for woodworking? Why was everyone still planting it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> In his book, Farmer gives a few reasons: blue gum was familiar, seeds were everywhere, it could grow in lousy soil—plus a blend of historical ignorance and artful deception.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jared Farmer:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> In part because these people were not reading farm reports from the 1870s and 1880s, and even if they did read them maybe they wouldn’t care because they just wanted to make a buck, they were just flipping land.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Fears of a hardwood famine ultimately proved overblown. Concrete and steel became cheaper, forests further east recovered, and people started making furniture from imported wood like mahogany instead. California’s eucalyptus trees weren’t even worth cutting down—so there they stand. They’re like century-old abandoned crops. Farmer describes their presence here as a beautiful mistake. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That brings us to the second half of this week’s question from Julie and Christian:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Bergen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I know that they’re invasive, so what do we do about that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christian Wagner: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To what extent is it sort of here to stay?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I took this question to Jenn Yost, a botanist at CalPoly. While some people see California’s eucalyptus trees as a heinous invasive species and want them gone, Yost was careful to delineate between \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">non-native\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">—which these trees definitely are—and \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">invasive\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jenn Yost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Just because something reproduces a little bit, sometimes it doesn’t do it enough where it has an ecological impact. And as soon as it starts outcompeting native species or fundamentally changing the environment so that native species can’t grow there, we would consider that an invasive species.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">While many kinds of eucalyptus have been tried out in California, only \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">two\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> are good enough at reproducing here to be considered \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">invasive\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: the red gum and the blue gum. And those don’t seem able to reproduce just \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">anywhere\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. In some drier parts of the state, the old plantations aren’t spreading.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jenn Yost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> You see blue gums being weedy and really reproducing on their own in areas that have summer moisture, and that’s usually in the form of fog. Or you see them being weedy in places with year-round water, like irrigation ditches or places with seeps.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Blue gum is classified as a “moderate invasive.” Compared to other, faster-moving weeds, it’s not California’s most-wanted ravaging the countryside. Yost attributes a lot of the current resentment to the historic 1991 fire in the East Bay hills, where tons of eucalyptus burned.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jenn Yost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> People at the time I don’t think associated that with a planted plantation; it was just a eucalyptus forest. And then when the fire came through—I mean that fire came through so fast and so hot and so many people lost their homes that it was a natural reaction to hate blue gums at that point.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Archival tape: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Pushed by 30 mile per hour winds, fire swept down the Oakland Berkeley hills destroying everything in its path.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The East Bay Hills fire was hugely devastating… 25 people died and thousands were left homeless. Many experts say that eucalyptus trees worsen the fire threat for a few reasons… The bark they shed dries out quickly and creates fuel…a lot of fuel. Once a fire starts, that bark easily catches the wind and can be blown miles away, spreading the fire quickly. Also: Eucalyptus trees are really oily. The oil is actually what gives off that intense fragrance they’re known for. But in a fire, that oil also makes them flammable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Other folks argue different plants in their place would also burn. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is an entrenched debate! A few years ago there was federal fire-prevention funding to cut down trees in those same hills, and people protested. Folks got naked and hugged the blue gums on campus at Berkeley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> But after a nearly decade-long legal battle, a court gave UC Berkeley the go-ahead to cut down dozens of acres of Eucalyptus last year. Still, it’s a drop in the bucket when you think about how many of these trees we have in California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yost estimates there’s something like 40 thousand acres of unharvested crops in the state. It’s not hard to extrapolate upwards of ten million trees statewide. Cutting each one down takes time and money.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So really the question of whether eucalyptus is going away comes down to who’s backyard it’s in. Can they afford to cut the trees down? Is the political will there to do it? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So that’s where things are. What did our question askers think? Christian and Julie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Bergen:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That was absolutely fascinating. I did not know that the history was even that rich.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Christian Wagner: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I have to say I love the idea that a lot of what we see was a get-rich-quick scheme. Because that is just a theme that happens so often in America and in California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So often to our detriment. Science Writer Daniel Potter, thanks for stomping around so many forests for us this week. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Happy to do it!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">music\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A note: A few of the sources quoted in his story have changed jobs since they were first interviewed in 2018.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you’ve ever wondered what all goes into making a Bay Curious story sound the way it does … join producer Katrina Schwartz and I TONIGHT, April 11 for our talk: Elevating Audio Stories with Sound for the PRX Podcast Garage. We’ll be talking through how we use music, sound effects, archival material, narration and more to bring the Bay Curious podcast to life. Join us in person at KQED’s Headquarters, or on the livestream. Tickets are free if you use the code “baycurious.” Grab yours at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcastgarage\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">kqed.org/podcastgarage\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christian Wagner:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at KQED. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "California's Beloved Abalone Sea Snails Are Struggling. Here's Why",
"headTitle": "California’s Beloved Abalone Sea Snails Are Struggling. Here’s Why | KQED",
"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The beaches of Northern California can be treasure troves for keen-eyed visitors. Surrounded by grass-covered cliffs and dramatic rocky outcrops, walkers can often find seashells, driftwood and other riches on the cool, wet sand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Bay Curious listener Lorraine Page moved to Pescadero about 30 years ago, she spent a lot of time hunting for such treasures at the beach. A family doctor by day, beachcombing was her way to unwind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While she came across all sorts of treasures, she was looking for one thing in particular: abalone shells. For her, finding one of those beautiful, iridescent mollusks signified a day well spent on a Northern California beach. \u003ca href=\"https://www.montereybayaquarium.org/animals/animals-a-to-z/abalone\">Abalone are mollusks, essentially sea snails\u003c/a> that can grow up to 10 inches in diameter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If she was especially lucky, Page might even find what are called \u003ci>pearls\u003c/i> attached to the outside of an abalone shell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The abalone makes this pearl to try to protect the shell,” she said. “And it’s beautiful.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If the abalone perceives a threat, like a parasite, it surrounds it with nacre, also known as mother-of-pearl, to wall off the intruder. Over eight to 10 years, a beautiful iridescent pearl forms on the abalone shell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Page found \u003ca href=\"https://www.purepearls.com/pages/pearl-types-abalone-pearls\">one of these rare wild beauties\u003c/a>, she brought it to a jeweler in Pescadero, who turned it into one-of-a-kind necklaces or earrings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But over time, Page stopped finding them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It used to be consistent. At certain beaches in Pescadero, you’d find abalone shells,” she said. “And now I just can’t. They’re not around anymore.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She hasn’t found a whole abalone shell in over 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Abalone’s long history\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11976838\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11976838\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-64-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-64-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-64-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-64-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-64-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-64-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-64-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Doug Jung holds a red abalone shell, or a trophy as they are called, at his home in Santa Rosa on Feb. 20, 2024. A friend gave the shell to him after his house burned down and he lost all of his belongings in the Tubbs Fire. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Abalone has lived off of California’s coastline for \u003ca href=\"https://caseagrant.ucsd.edu/news/abalone-the-story-of-a-treasured-mollusk-on-the-california-coast\">at least 70 million years\u003c/a>. The ancient mollusk has always held deep meaning for Northern Californians, going back to the very first humans who lived here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When humans came to California, they started using abalone right away — initially for food, but soon thereafter also for tools,” said Ann Vileisis, an environmental historian and author of the book \u003ca href=\"https://osupress.oregonstate.edu/index.php/book/abalone\">\u003ci>Abalone: The Remarkable History and Uncertain Future of California’s Iconic Shellfish\u003c/i>.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Indigenous people also used abalone shells for decoration and ceremonial purposes. During ceremonial dances, people wore beautifully elaborate regalia with abalone shells prominently displayed. They not only looked beautiful, Vileisis said, but they also added an incredible clacking sound, which helped to bring the dance to life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But when European settlers arrived on the West Coast, they started treating abalone like a commodity to be traded and sold.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the late 18th century, Spanish settlers traded abalone shells for sea otter fur as part of the Pacific fur trade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, in the mid-to-late-19th century, Chinese and Japanese immigrants — who were familiar with abalone, being from the other side of the Pacific Ocean — began shipping dried abalone and shells back to China and Japan, where they were used in soups and congees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That was actually probably among the first California global trades,” Vileisis said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This was also a time of extreme racism and xenophobia in the U.S. In 1882, Congress passed the \u003ca href=\"https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/chinese-exclusion-act#:~:text=The%20Chinese%20Exclusion%20Act%20was,Arthur.\">Chinese Exclusion Act\u003c/a>, which barred Chinese immigrants from entering the U.S. And in1913, the California legislature passed a ban on exporting abalone, allegedly due to concerns over overfishing, though today it is largely seen as a racist law meant to target the growing prosperity of Chinese and Japanese fishermen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But abalone fishing didn’t stop. And in fact, over time, more and more Americans developed a culinary appreciation for California’s iconic sea snail.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is absolutely the best thing you can ever eat,” said Doug Jung, a Santa Rosa resident and former abalone diver. “There was nothing I’d rather eat than abalone. I mean, it was just so good.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11976836\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11976836\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-61-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Man in checked shirt and sun hat stands in front of a truck with a boat loaded in the back.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-61-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-61-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-61-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-61-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-61-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-61-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Doug Jung stands next to his boat in front of his home in Santa Rosa on Feb. 20, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Jung’s favorite way to cook abalone is to tenderize it with a wooden mallet, cover it with flour, then throw it in a wok and deep fry it for about six minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s crunchy on the outside, and you can cut it with a fork easily,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Beyond feasting on abalone, diving for it became a way of life for Jung. He learned when he was in high school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s the adventure,” he said. “Every time you go out, when you come back, you say, ‘Cheated death one more time.'”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Abalone diving is one of the most dangerous kinds of sport fishing. It’s illegal to use scuba gear to dive for abalone due to concerns of overfishing. So, while holding their breath, divers have to dive down to the ocean floor or navigate rocky outcrops, scrape off the abalone without harming them, and then swim back up to the surface. And if that weren’t enough, they also must avoid getting tangled in kelp and encounters with other sea creatures. An octopus almost drowned Jung one time, he said. But despite the risks, for Jung, diving for abalone was totally worth it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This was my passion,” he said. “More than anything else, abalone diving was my absolute passion.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11976837\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11976837\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-63-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-63-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-63-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-63-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-63-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-63-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-63-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Photos of Doug Jung with friends and family during and after abalone dives hang on the wall of his home in Santa Rosa on Feb. 20, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Where are all the abalone?\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Just like Lorraine Page, our question-asker, Jung has also noticed the decline in abalone. In fact, he’s not even allowed to dive for them anymore because they are now considered critically endangered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Around 2014, a big climate change-driven marine heatwave hit the coast of Northern California. The increased water temperature impacted sea life in all kinds of ways, most notably killing much of the local kelp forest. And since kelp is a staple food source for many sea animals, other oceanic species, like abalone, also died off in large numbers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the same time, the Northern California sea star population was hit hard by a disease called \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/im/swan/ssws.htm\">wasting syndrome\u003c/a>. The warmer marine temperatures made the sea stars more susceptible to the disease and also allowed the disease to proliferate more quickly. Sea stars are predators of sea urchins, so when the sea stars started to decline, purple urchins thrived. And purple urchins devour kelp. The booming urchin population ultimately ate through more than 95% of Northern California’s coastal kelp, causing a near-total kelp forest collapse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Without the kelp, millions of red abalone — Northern California’s native species — died of starvation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I go out there and dive, it makes me cry because the only thing I see is urchin barrens,” Jung said. “This is a horror for us who understood the beauty of what we lost.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Hope for another abalone species\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Red abalone isn’t the only type of abalone facing potential extinction in California. In fact, all west coast abalone species are \u003ca href=\"https://www.ucdavis.edu/climate/news/all-west-coast-abalone-added-endangered-iucns-red-list\">listed\u003c/a> as critically endangered or endangered \u003ca href=\"https://www.iucnredlist.org/\">on the International Union for Conservation of Nature’s Red List of Threatened Species\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Enter the UC Davis Bodega Marine Lab white abalone captive breeding program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11976835\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11976835\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-47-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-47-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-47-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-47-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-47-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-47-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-47-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Alyssa Frederick, director of the White Abalone Captive Breeding Program, poses for a portrait at the UC Davis-Bodega Marine Laboratory in Bodega Bay on Feb. 20, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The program started over a decade ago when scientists realized that white abalone populations had gotten so low they couldn’t reproduce in the wild anymore. Native to Southern California, the white abalone lives in deep water, but in the 1960s–1970s, as soon as diving technology allowed for deeper water fishing, humans overfished them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Scientists have been working to breed white abalone in captivity under controlled conditions in order to release them into the wild and hopefully jump-start reproduction in the wild again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The spawns — where they induce breeding between male and female abalone — are exciting events that only happen once a year. I visited the lab just days after the most recent one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11976831\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11976831\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-10-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-10-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-10-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-10-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-10-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-10-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-10-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Alyssa Frederick, director of the White Abalone Captive Breeding Program, points to a group of white abalone in a lab at the UC Davis-Bodega Marine Laboratory in Bodega Bay on Feb. 20, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We had 6.7 million eggs last week,” said Alyssa Frederick, director of the lab’s white abalone captive breeding program. “It was the largest spawn we’ve had in the program since 2019. I was really excited.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A ton of planning and coordination goes into a spawn, Frederick said. The abalone basically sits in buckets of chemicals, mostly hydrogen peroxide, which causes a cascade of hormones in their bodies that tell them it’s time to spawn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Abalone are broadcast spawners, meaning they release their eggs and sperm into the water column and form larvae from there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was literally pacing my living room like someone waiting in a maternity ward for someone to give birth,” Frederick said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Currently, the program releases about 5,000 abalone into the wild per year. In order to save the species, models show they need to be releasing twice that amount.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We still are an order of magnitude below what’s required to save the species,” Frederick said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11976832\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11976832\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-25-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-25-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-25-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-25-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-25-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-25-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-25-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Alyssa Frederick, director of the White Abalone Captive Breeding Program, holds a white abalone at the UC Davis-Bodega Marine Laboratory in Bodega Bay on Feb. 20, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>‘Double whammy’ for red abalone\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The white abalone captive breeding program holds promise for the future of that species. As for red abalone, the situation is more complicated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In white abalone, you have lots of nice habitat,” said Laura Rogers-Bennett, a senior environmental scientist with the California Department of Fish and Wildlife. “You have kelp, you just don’t have white abalone. But red abalone has the double whammy of [needing] kelp \u003ci>and\u003c/i> red abalone.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s part of the reason there is no captive breeding program for red abalone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981674\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981674\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/red-abalone.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/red-abalone.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/red-abalone-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/red-abalone-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/red-abalone-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/red-abalone-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Abalone in a kelp forest near Mendocino, California, surrounded by dark red algae. \u003ccite>(Lt. John Crofts, NOAA Corps., Public domain, via Wikimedia Commons)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But there are some programs in place to try to save the kelp and, ultimately, the abalone. For example, since sea urchins are such a scourge on the kelp, state Fish and Wildlife officials have allowed commercial and recreational divers to harvest them in select areas. With fewer sea urchins, Rogers-Bennett said, the kelp might recover.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the program is still too small to have much impact, Rogers-Bennett said. There are just too many sea urchins. As a lifelong diver and ocean creature enthusiast, she said the work can be discouraging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“To go back to a spot and see a particular rock that I visited at least once a year for 20 years, and to know that that spot is where there used to be tons of red abalone and to see it just covered with urchin and no algae at all, it’s heartbreaking,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While there’s certainly no lack of enthusiasm, she said her program needs more financial support if it has a chance of saving the abalone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Obviously, in red abalone, we have the passion,” she said. “I think there’s a chance that we can create some of these pockets of kelp forest and have them come back in these kelp oases. And that will be the start of restoration areas for the whole coast.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But as human-caused climate change continues to change ecosystems, there’s no telling when the next marine heatwave might hit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Sounds of ocean waves and seagulls]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> When Lorraine Page moved to Pescadero in the ’90s, she spent a lot of time at the beach. It was her way to unwind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lorraine Page: \u003c/b>I’m a family doctor on the coast. So I’m busy. But on, on weekends and such, that would be an outlet for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>She would comb the beach and explore the tide pools for hours, looking for one thing in particular: abalone shells.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Magical beach music begins]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Abalone are mollusks… basically big sea snails, up to 10 inches wide, that live off our northern California coastline. You might recognize their shells, which are iridescent… somehow every color of the rainbow all at once.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lorraine sought them out because sometimes, if she was lucky, on those abalone shells she would find an abalone \u003ci>pearl.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lorraine Page: \u003c/b>They’re these beautiful little pearls that show up in the shell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>When Lorraine found one, she’d bring it to a jeweler in Pescadero who would polish it up and turn it into a one-of-a-kind necklace or earrings. But over time, Lorraine has stopped finding them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lorraine Page: \u003c/b>It used to be consistent that certain beaches in Pescadero, you’d find abalone shells, and I just can’t. They’re not around anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>She says she hasn’t found a whole abalone shell in more than 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lorraine Page: \u003c/b>That’s just my simple question is, do we know why there’s not as many abalone?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Bay Curious theme music starts] \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>I’m Olivia Allen Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious. On today’s episode: what happened to all the abalone? And can we bring them back?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Theme\u003c/i> \u003ci>music ends]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Where did all the abalone go? We sent reporter Dana Cronin to find out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin:\u003c/b> Before I get to answering Lorraine’s question, I think we could all use a little history lesson. Because, oh man, do abalone have a long history here in Northern California?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Vileisis: \u003c/b>Abalone have lived on the California coast for actually 70 million years, at the very least.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Ann Vileisis is an environmental historian who’s authored a whole book on abalone. She says the ancient mollusk has always held deep meaning for us Northern Californians… going back to the \u003ci>very first \u003c/i>humans who lived here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Vileisis: \u003c/b>When humans came to California, they started using abalone right away, initially for food, but soon thereafter also for tools\u003ci>.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Indigenous people also used abalone shells for decoration and ceremonial purposes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Sounds of a Pomo Indian dance performance featuring clacking abalone shells]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>During ceremonial dances, for example… abalone shells were a part of the regalia. They not only looked beautiful — they also added this incredible clacking sound… bringing the dance to life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But when European settlers arrived on the West Coast, they started treating abalone like a commodity… to be traded and sold.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Music starts]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the late 18th century, Spanish settlers traded abalone shells for sea otter fur as part of the Pacific fur trade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, in the mid-to-late-1800s, Chinese and Japanese immigrants — who were very familiar with abalone being from the other side of the Pacific Ocean — began shipping dried abalone and shells back to China and Japan, where they were used in soups and congees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Vileisis: \u003c/b>That was actually probably one of the, you know, among the first California global trades was in abalone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>This was also a time of extreme racism and xenophobia in the U.S., around when Congress passed the Chinese Exclusion Act, which barred Chinese immigrants from entering the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1913, the California legislature passed a ban on exporting abalone, which they \u003ci>said\u003c/i> was due to concerns of overfishing. In reality, the ban was part of the larger anti-immigrant sentiment of the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Music fades out]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But abalone fishing didn’t stop. And in fact, over time, more and more Americans realized how delicious these sea snails are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Doug Jung: \u003c/b>It is absolutely the best thing you can ever eat. There was nothing I’d rather eat than abalone. I mean, it was just so good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>This is Doug Jung. He lives in Santa Rosa and has been abalone diving up and down the Northern California coast since he was in high school — over 50 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He says abalone is naturally buttery and salty… and there’s something about its texture that is totally unique and delicious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Doug Jung: \u003c/b>We just pound it with a wooden mallet until it’s soft. And then we throw it in a wok for six minutes and deep fry it and it comes out. It doesn’t suck up all the oil. You have it covered with flour and things. So it’s crunchy on the outside. You can cut it with a fork easily.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Like, imagine the most tender, melt-in-your-mouth scallop you’ve ever had.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But beyond just eating it… over the years, abalone diving became a way of life for Doug. It was addicting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Doug Jung: \u003c/b>It’s the adventure. Every time you go out, you know when you come back, you say ‘Cheated death one more time.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Music starts]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Cheated death one more time because abalone diving is one of the more dangerous sport fishing activities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s because it was illegal to use scuba gear to dive for abalone due to concerns of overfishing. So divers have to dive down to the ocean floor or navigate rocky outcrops — where abalone suction themselves — scrape them off without harming them… and then swim to the surface \u003ci>all in one breath\u003c/i>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Music fades out]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not to mention avoiding getting tangled in kelp… or encountering other sea critters. Doug tells me about a time he had a run-in with an octopus:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Doug Jung: \u003c/b>He only had two tentacles on me … but with those two tentacles — and I was in my prime in my 30s — I barely got off those two tentacles before coming up. And, I’m thinking if you had three on, I’d be dead\u003ci>.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Doug says, despite the risks, diving for abalone was totally worth it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Doug Jung: \u003c/b>I feel very, very fortunate to be able to experience this because this was my passion. More than anything else, more than inventing new technology, more than going fishing, more than hiking. Going up from the into the Sierras. Abalone diving was my absolute passion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>But just like Lorraine, Doug has also noticed the decline in abalone. In fact, he’s not even allowed to dive for abalone anymore, because abalone are now considered critically endangered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To understand how we got here, we need to rewind the clock about 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Music starts]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Around 2014, there was a big marine heatwave, driven no doubt by climate change. That heat wave impacted Northern California’s coastline in all kinds of ways. Most notably, killing much of the kelp forest off our coast here. Kelp is the main food source for many ocean species — including, you guessed it, abalone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The marine heat wave also introduced a disease called wasting syndrome… which wiped out much of the sea star population. Like in any ecosystem, when one species is impacted, other species along the food chain are impacted, too. Sea stars prey on sea urchins. So when the sea stars started to decline, purple urchins were without a predator… and they \u003ci>thrived. \u003c/i>So much so that they ate through more than 95 percent of our coastal kelp… causing a near-total kelp forest collapse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Music out]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that’s the root issue here. Because without the kelp, millions of red abalone — the kind that’s native to Northern California — have died due to starvation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Doug Jung: \u003c/b>It’s dead. When I go out there and dive up. It makes me cry because the only thing I see is urchin barrens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>While Doug used to dive down and see this lush kelp forest, teeming with fish and snails and sea stars… now, with the kelp mostly gone, it’s almost like a desert landscape, with urchins covering the ocean floor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Doug Jung: \u003c/b>This is a horror for us. For us who understood the beauty of what we lost.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>So that’s the sad answer to Lorraine’s question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But now, you might be wondering: is there hope for the future of abalone?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Rushing mechanical background sound fade in]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>To answer that question, we’re going to take a tour of the UC Davis Bodega Marine Lab, a facility in Bodega Bay that \u003ci>breeds \u003c/i>abalone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alyssa Frederick: \u003c/b>When we’re doing spawning, what we do is we’ll take an animal out and we’ll check its gonads.\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>This is Alyssa Frederick. She directs the white abalone \u003ci>captive breeding program\u003c/i> here at the lab.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She holds up a five-year-old female abalone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alyssa Frederick: \u003c/b>So they have two eyes on stocks and then they also have their like antenna. That’s curled up underneath. One’s curled up underneath, and one’s right here. Yeah. Pretty cute.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>We’re in a lab holding room full of tanks housing abalone of all ages and sizes. This little lady, in particular, looks like a giant, oval-shaped snail with a big shell that sits flat across her back. Her two eyes are like tentacles, feeling their way around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The spawns — where they induce breeding between the male and female abalone — are a really big deal. They only happen once a year, and I’m visiting just days after the most recent one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alyssa Frederick: \u003c/b>We had 6.7 million eggs last week. It was the largest spawn we’ve had in the program since 2019. I was really excited.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Music starts]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>A lot of planning and coordination goes into a spawn. The abalone basically sit in buckets of chemicals, namely hydrogen peroxide, which causes a cascade of hormones in their bodies that tell them it’s time to spawn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Alyssa says they set the mood — so to speak — in other ways too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alyssa Frederick: \u003c/b>We had the lights off for most of it. We did it in the evening, which, like abalone, are more active in the evening. So my line of thinking is that why not stack the odds in our favor and do it then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Abalone are broadcast spawners, meaning they release their eggs and sperm into the water column and form larvae from there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Alyssa says it’s an intense process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alyssa Frederick:\u003c/b> I mean, the joke, like, I was literally pacing my living room like someone waiting in a maternity ward for someone to give birth\u003ci>.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Music fade out]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>On the day I’m visiting, the little baby abalone are starting to settle, which means they have to flip themselves over and find a place to settle on the bottom of the tank.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We watch them through a microscope:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alyssa Frederick: \u003c/b>Wee! Aww. So cute. Dancing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Now it’s important to note that these are \u003ci>white \u003c/i>abalone. Remember the ones we’ve mostly been talking about so far are red abalone… which are native to \u003ci>Northern\u003c/i> California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>White abalone were more common down in southern California. However, in the ‘60s and ‘70s, as soon as diving technology allowed us to fish deeper water species, we overfished them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alyssa Frederick: \u003c/b>So we overfished, over 99% of what was out in the wild. It was pretty significant. Like, pretty much all of them.\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>White abalone was the first marine invertebrate species to be listed on the Endangered Species Act. There were so few left they weren’t able to reproduce in the wild anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So scientists decided to bring some into captivity, have them reproduce in safe, controlled conditions, and then release them into the wild. They release them when they’re about a year old by placing them in these small cages on the ocean floor and opening up the door.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The goal is to create enough of them out in the wild that they start reproducing on their own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Right now, they’re releasing about five thousand abalone into the wild per year. In order to save the species, models show they need to be releasing twice that amount.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alyssa Frederick: \u003c/b>Right now we still are an order of magnitude below what’s required to save the species.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>But, she says, they’re also an order of magnitude \u003ci>above\u003c/i> where they started.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Music starts]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So there’s some hope for white abalone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As for our red abalone here in Northern California… the situation is more complicated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Rogers-Bennett: \u003c/b>I think the red abalone problem is more difficult.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>This is Laura Rogers-Bennett, a senior environmental scientist with the California Department of Fish and Wildlife. She also works at the Bodega Marine Lab and specializes in \u003ci>red\u003c/i> abalone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She says while white abalone struggle in numbers, they at least have a healthy kelp forest to return to down south.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Rogers-Bennett:\u003c/b> Red abalone has the double whammy of you need kelp. And you need red abalone\u003ci>.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Without kelp, red abalone don’t have a home to return to. And that makes captive breeding — and reintroduction — a lot harder. That’s part of the reason there is no captive breeding program for red abalone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They are doing some things, though, to try to bring back the kelp and, ultimately, the abalone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For example, they’ve identified a few areas off the coast where they allow divers to go out and harvest sea urchins to try to get the kelp to grow back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Rogers-Bennett: \u003c/b>So far they haven’t been that successful in terms of bringing back the kelp.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>There are also captive breeding programs for sea stars, which aim to reintroduce them back into the ecosystem to keep the urchin at bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s definitely an uphill battle. As someone who has done this work for a long time, Laura says it’s emotionally draining.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Rogers-Bennett: \u003c/b>To go back to a spot and see a particular rock, that I visited, at least once a year for 20 years. And to know that that spot is where there’s tons used to be tons of red abalone and to see it just covered with urchin and no algae at all. It’s heartbreaking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>But she’s committed to trying. Trying to get the kelp forest to grow back, trying to recoup the abalone we’ve lost over the last decade. And she hopes the findings from the captive breeding program will help along the way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Rogers-Bennett: \u003c/b>Obviously, in red abalone, we have the passion. I think there’s a chance that we can create some of these pockets of kelp forest. Have them come back in these kelp oases. And, that will be the start of restoration areas for the whole coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>If that happens, we could look forward to a future where Lorraine Page, our question-asker, can beach comb again for abalone pearls. And Doug can revive his long lost hobby; diving down, wrestling octopi along the way, in search of his favorite sea snail.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Music fades out along with the sound of crashing waves]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> That story was reported by KQED’s Dana Cronin. Big thanks to Lorraine Page for asking the question.\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>The North Coast Journal provided the sound of abalone clacking during ceremonial dances for our use in this episode.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’ve ever wondered what all goes into making a Bay Curious story sound the way it does … join producer Katrina Schwartz and I on April 11 for \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/1000/apr-11-600pm-elevating-audio-stories-with-sound-ft-bay-curious\">our talk at the PRX Podcast Garage\u003c/a>. We’re calling it \u003cb>Elevating Audio Stories with Sound\u003c/b> and it’s all about how we make this show with a small but mighty team. We’ll be talking through how we use music, sound effects, archival material, narration and more to bring the Bay Curious podcast to life. Join us in person at KQED’s Headquarters or on the livestream. Tickets are free if you use the code “baycurious” that’s all one word. Grab yours at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/podcastgarage\">kqed.org/podcastgarage\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"excerpt": "Northern California beachcombers in places like Pescadero and Mendocino find abalone shells much less often than they used to. Climate change is threatening the red abalone population.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The beaches of Northern California can be treasure troves for keen-eyed visitors. Surrounded by grass-covered cliffs and dramatic rocky outcrops, walkers can often find seashells, driftwood and other riches on the cool, wet sand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Bay Curious listener Lorraine Page moved to Pescadero about 30 years ago, she spent a lot of time hunting for such treasures at the beach. A family doctor by day, beachcombing was her way to unwind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While she came across all sorts of treasures, she was looking for one thing in particular: abalone shells. For her, finding one of those beautiful, iridescent mollusks signified a day well spent on a Northern California beach. \u003ca href=\"https://www.montereybayaquarium.org/animals/animals-a-to-z/abalone\">Abalone are mollusks, essentially sea snails\u003c/a> that can grow up to 10 inches in diameter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If she was especially lucky, Page might even find what are called \u003ci>pearls\u003c/i> attached to the outside of an abalone shell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The abalone makes this pearl to try to protect the shell,” she said. “And it’s beautiful.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If the abalone perceives a threat, like a parasite, it surrounds it with nacre, also known as mother-of-pearl, to wall off the intruder. Over eight to 10 years, a beautiful iridescent pearl forms on the abalone shell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Page found \u003ca href=\"https://www.purepearls.com/pages/pearl-types-abalone-pearls\">one of these rare wild beauties\u003c/a>, she brought it to a jeweler in Pescadero, who turned it into one-of-a-kind necklaces or earrings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But over time, Page stopped finding them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It used to be consistent. At certain beaches in Pescadero, you’d find abalone shells,” she said. “And now I just can’t. They’re not around anymore.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She hasn’t found a whole abalone shell in over 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Abalone’s long history\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11976838\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11976838\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-64-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-64-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-64-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-64-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-64-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-64-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-64-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Doug Jung holds a red abalone shell, or a trophy as they are called, at his home in Santa Rosa on Feb. 20, 2024. A friend gave the shell to him after his house burned down and he lost all of his belongings in the Tubbs Fire. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Abalone has lived off of California’s coastline for \u003ca href=\"https://caseagrant.ucsd.edu/news/abalone-the-story-of-a-treasured-mollusk-on-the-california-coast\">at least 70 million years\u003c/a>. The ancient mollusk has always held deep meaning for Northern Californians, going back to the very first humans who lived here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When humans came to California, they started using abalone right away — initially for food, but soon thereafter also for tools,” said Ann Vileisis, an environmental historian and author of the book \u003ca href=\"https://osupress.oregonstate.edu/index.php/book/abalone\">\u003ci>Abalone: The Remarkable History and Uncertain Future of California’s Iconic Shellfish\u003c/i>.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Indigenous people also used abalone shells for decoration and ceremonial purposes. During ceremonial dances, people wore beautifully elaborate regalia with abalone shells prominently displayed. They not only looked beautiful, Vileisis said, but they also added an incredible clacking sound, which helped to bring the dance to life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But when European settlers arrived on the West Coast, they started treating abalone like a commodity to be traded and sold.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the late 18th century, Spanish settlers traded abalone shells for sea otter fur as part of the Pacific fur trade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, in the mid-to-late-19th century, Chinese and Japanese immigrants — who were familiar with abalone, being from the other side of the Pacific Ocean — began shipping dried abalone and shells back to China and Japan, where they were used in soups and congees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That was actually probably among the first California global trades,” Vileisis said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This was also a time of extreme racism and xenophobia in the U.S. In 1882, Congress passed the \u003ca href=\"https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/chinese-exclusion-act#:~:text=The%20Chinese%20Exclusion%20Act%20was,Arthur.\">Chinese Exclusion Act\u003c/a>, which barred Chinese immigrants from entering the U.S. And in1913, the California legislature passed a ban on exporting abalone, allegedly due to concerns over overfishing, though today it is largely seen as a racist law meant to target the growing prosperity of Chinese and Japanese fishermen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But abalone fishing didn’t stop. And in fact, over time, more and more Americans developed a culinary appreciation for California’s iconic sea snail.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is absolutely the best thing you can ever eat,” said Doug Jung, a Santa Rosa resident and former abalone diver. “There was nothing I’d rather eat than abalone. I mean, it was just so good.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11976836\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11976836\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-61-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Man in checked shirt and sun hat stands in front of a truck with a boat loaded in the back.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-61-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-61-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-61-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-61-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-61-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-61-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Doug Jung stands next to his boat in front of his home in Santa Rosa on Feb. 20, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Jung’s favorite way to cook abalone is to tenderize it with a wooden mallet, cover it with flour, then throw it in a wok and deep fry it for about six minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s crunchy on the outside, and you can cut it with a fork easily,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Beyond feasting on abalone, diving for it became a way of life for Jung. He learned when he was in high school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s the adventure,” he said. “Every time you go out, when you come back, you say, ‘Cheated death one more time.'”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Abalone diving is one of the most dangerous kinds of sport fishing. It’s illegal to use scuba gear to dive for abalone due to concerns of overfishing. So, while holding their breath, divers have to dive down to the ocean floor or navigate rocky outcrops, scrape off the abalone without harming them, and then swim back up to the surface. And if that weren’t enough, they also must avoid getting tangled in kelp and encounters with other sea creatures. An octopus almost drowned Jung one time, he said. But despite the risks, for Jung, diving for abalone was totally worth it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This was my passion,” he said. “More than anything else, abalone diving was my absolute passion.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11976837\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11976837\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-63-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-63-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-63-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-63-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-63-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-63-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-63-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Photos of Doug Jung with friends and family during and after abalone dives hang on the wall of his home in Santa Rosa on Feb. 20, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Where are all the abalone?\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Just like Lorraine Page, our question-asker, Jung has also noticed the decline in abalone. In fact, he’s not even allowed to dive for them anymore because they are now considered critically endangered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Around 2014, a big climate change-driven marine heatwave hit the coast of Northern California. The increased water temperature impacted sea life in all kinds of ways, most notably killing much of the local kelp forest. And since kelp is a staple food source for many sea animals, other oceanic species, like abalone, also died off in large numbers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the same time, the Northern California sea star population was hit hard by a disease called \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/im/swan/ssws.htm\">wasting syndrome\u003c/a>. The warmer marine temperatures made the sea stars more susceptible to the disease and also allowed the disease to proliferate more quickly. Sea stars are predators of sea urchins, so when the sea stars started to decline, purple urchins thrived. And purple urchins devour kelp. The booming urchin population ultimately ate through more than 95% of Northern California’s coastal kelp, causing a near-total kelp forest collapse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Without the kelp, millions of red abalone — Northern California’s native species — died of starvation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I go out there and dive, it makes me cry because the only thing I see is urchin barrens,” Jung said. “This is a horror for us who understood the beauty of what we lost.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Hope for another abalone species\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Red abalone isn’t the only type of abalone facing potential extinction in California. In fact, all west coast abalone species are \u003ca href=\"https://www.ucdavis.edu/climate/news/all-west-coast-abalone-added-endangered-iucns-red-list\">listed\u003c/a> as critically endangered or endangered \u003ca href=\"https://www.iucnredlist.org/\">on the International Union for Conservation of Nature’s Red List of Threatened Species\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Enter the UC Davis Bodega Marine Lab white abalone captive breeding program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11976835\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11976835\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-47-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-47-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-47-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-47-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-47-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-47-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-47-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Alyssa Frederick, director of the White Abalone Captive Breeding Program, poses for a portrait at the UC Davis-Bodega Marine Laboratory in Bodega Bay on Feb. 20, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The program started over a decade ago when scientists realized that white abalone populations had gotten so low they couldn’t reproduce in the wild anymore. Native to Southern California, the white abalone lives in deep water, but in the 1960s–1970s, as soon as diving technology allowed for deeper water fishing, humans overfished them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Scientists have been working to breed white abalone in captivity under controlled conditions in order to release them into the wild and hopefully jump-start reproduction in the wild again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The spawns — where they induce breeding between male and female abalone — are exciting events that only happen once a year. I visited the lab just days after the most recent one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11976831\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11976831\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-10-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-10-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-10-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-10-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-10-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-10-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-10-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Alyssa Frederick, director of the White Abalone Captive Breeding Program, points to a group of white abalone in a lab at the UC Davis-Bodega Marine Laboratory in Bodega Bay on Feb. 20, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We had 6.7 million eggs last week,” said Alyssa Frederick, director of the lab’s white abalone captive breeding program. “It was the largest spawn we’ve had in the program since 2019. I was really excited.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A ton of planning and coordination goes into a spawn, Frederick said. The abalone basically sits in buckets of chemicals, mostly hydrogen peroxide, which causes a cascade of hormones in their bodies that tell them it’s time to spawn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Abalone are broadcast spawners, meaning they release their eggs and sperm into the water column and form larvae from there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was literally pacing my living room like someone waiting in a maternity ward for someone to give birth,” Frederick said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Currently, the program releases about 5,000 abalone into the wild per year. In order to save the species, models show they need to be releasing twice that amount.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We still are an order of magnitude below what’s required to save the species,” Frederick said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11976832\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11976832\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-25-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-25-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-25-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-25-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-25-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-25-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240220-ABALONE-25-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Alyssa Frederick, director of the White Abalone Captive Breeding Program, holds a white abalone at the UC Davis-Bodega Marine Laboratory in Bodega Bay on Feb. 20, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>‘Double whammy’ for red abalone\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The white abalone captive breeding program holds promise for the future of that species. As for red abalone, the situation is more complicated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In white abalone, you have lots of nice habitat,” said Laura Rogers-Bennett, a senior environmental scientist with the California Department of Fish and Wildlife. “You have kelp, you just don’t have white abalone. But red abalone has the double whammy of [needing] kelp \u003ci>and\u003c/i> red abalone.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s part of the reason there is no captive breeding program for red abalone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981674\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981674\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/red-abalone.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/red-abalone.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/red-abalone-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/red-abalone-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/red-abalone-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/red-abalone-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Abalone in a kelp forest near Mendocino, California, surrounded by dark red algae. \u003ccite>(Lt. John Crofts, NOAA Corps., Public domain, via Wikimedia Commons)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But there are some programs in place to try to save the kelp and, ultimately, the abalone. For example, since sea urchins are such a scourge on the kelp, state Fish and Wildlife officials have allowed commercial and recreational divers to harvest them in select areas. With fewer sea urchins, Rogers-Bennett said, the kelp might recover.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the program is still too small to have much impact, Rogers-Bennett said. There are just too many sea urchins. As a lifelong diver and ocean creature enthusiast, she said the work can be discouraging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“To go back to a spot and see a particular rock that I visited at least once a year for 20 years, and to know that that spot is where there used to be tons of red abalone and to see it just covered with urchin and no algae at all, it’s heartbreaking,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While there’s certainly no lack of enthusiasm, she said her program needs more financial support if it has a chance of saving the abalone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Obviously, in red abalone, we have the passion,” she said. “I think there’s a chance that we can create some of these pockets of kelp forest and have them come back in these kelp oases. And that will be the start of restoration areas for the whole coast.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But as human-caused climate change continues to change ecosystems, there’s no telling when the next marine heatwave might hit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Sounds of ocean waves and seagulls]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> When Lorraine Page moved to Pescadero in the ’90s, she spent a lot of time at the beach. It was her way to unwind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lorraine Page: \u003c/b>I’m a family doctor on the coast. So I’m busy. But on, on weekends and such, that would be an outlet for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>She would comb the beach and explore the tide pools for hours, looking for one thing in particular: abalone shells.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Magical beach music begins]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Abalone are mollusks… basically big sea snails, up to 10 inches wide, that live off our northern California coastline. You might recognize their shells, which are iridescent… somehow every color of the rainbow all at once.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lorraine sought them out because sometimes, if she was lucky, on those abalone shells she would find an abalone \u003ci>pearl.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lorraine Page: \u003c/b>They’re these beautiful little pearls that show up in the shell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>When Lorraine found one, she’d bring it to a jeweler in Pescadero who would polish it up and turn it into a one-of-a-kind necklace or earrings. But over time, Lorraine has stopped finding them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lorraine Page: \u003c/b>It used to be consistent that certain beaches in Pescadero, you’d find abalone shells, and I just can’t. They’re not around anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>She says she hasn’t found a whole abalone shell in more than 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lorraine Page: \u003c/b>That’s just my simple question is, do we know why there’s not as many abalone?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Bay Curious theme music starts] \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>I’m Olivia Allen Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious. On today’s episode: what happened to all the abalone? And can we bring them back?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Theme\u003c/i> \u003ci>music ends]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Where did all the abalone go? We sent reporter Dana Cronin to find out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin:\u003c/b> Before I get to answering Lorraine’s question, I think we could all use a little history lesson. Because, oh man, do abalone have a long history here in Northern California?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Vileisis: \u003c/b>Abalone have lived on the California coast for actually 70 million years, at the very least.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Ann Vileisis is an environmental historian who’s authored a whole book on abalone. She says the ancient mollusk has always held deep meaning for us Northern Californians… going back to the \u003ci>very first \u003c/i>humans who lived here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Vileisis: \u003c/b>When humans came to California, they started using abalone right away, initially for food, but soon thereafter also for tools\u003ci>.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Indigenous people also used abalone shells for decoration and ceremonial purposes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Sounds of a Pomo Indian dance performance featuring clacking abalone shells]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>During ceremonial dances, for example… abalone shells were a part of the regalia. They not only looked beautiful — they also added this incredible clacking sound… bringing the dance to life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But when European settlers arrived on the West Coast, they started treating abalone like a commodity… to be traded and sold.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Music starts]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the late 18th century, Spanish settlers traded abalone shells for sea otter fur as part of the Pacific fur trade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, in the mid-to-late-1800s, Chinese and Japanese immigrants — who were very familiar with abalone being from the other side of the Pacific Ocean — began shipping dried abalone and shells back to China and Japan, where they were used in soups and congees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Vileisis: \u003c/b>That was actually probably one of the, you know, among the first California global trades was in abalone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>This was also a time of extreme racism and xenophobia in the U.S., around when Congress passed the Chinese Exclusion Act, which barred Chinese immigrants from entering the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1913, the California legislature passed a ban on exporting abalone, which they \u003ci>said\u003c/i> was due to concerns of overfishing. In reality, the ban was part of the larger anti-immigrant sentiment of the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Music fades out]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But abalone fishing didn’t stop. And in fact, over time, more and more Americans realized how delicious these sea snails are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Doug Jung: \u003c/b>It is absolutely the best thing you can ever eat. There was nothing I’d rather eat than abalone. I mean, it was just so good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>This is Doug Jung. He lives in Santa Rosa and has been abalone diving up and down the Northern California coast since he was in high school — over 50 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He says abalone is naturally buttery and salty… and there’s something about its texture that is totally unique and delicious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Doug Jung: \u003c/b>We just pound it with a wooden mallet until it’s soft. And then we throw it in a wok for six minutes and deep fry it and it comes out. It doesn’t suck up all the oil. You have it covered with flour and things. So it’s crunchy on the outside. You can cut it with a fork easily.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Like, imagine the most tender, melt-in-your-mouth scallop you’ve ever had.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But beyond just eating it… over the years, abalone diving became a way of life for Doug. It was addicting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Doug Jung: \u003c/b>It’s the adventure. Every time you go out, you know when you come back, you say ‘Cheated death one more time.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Music starts]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Cheated death one more time because abalone diving is one of the more dangerous sport fishing activities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s because it was illegal to use scuba gear to dive for abalone due to concerns of overfishing. So divers have to dive down to the ocean floor or navigate rocky outcrops — where abalone suction themselves — scrape them off without harming them… and then swim to the surface \u003ci>all in one breath\u003c/i>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Music fades out]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not to mention avoiding getting tangled in kelp… or encountering other sea critters. Doug tells me about a time he had a run-in with an octopus:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Doug Jung: \u003c/b>He only had two tentacles on me … but with those two tentacles — and I was in my prime in my 30s — I barely got off those two tentacles before coming up. And, I’m thinking if you had three on, I’d be dead\u003ci>.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Doug says, despite the risks, diving for abalone was totally worth it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Doug Jung: \u003c/b>I feel very, very fortunate to be able to experience this because this was my passion. More than anything else, more than inventing new technology, more than going fishing, more than hiking. Going up from the into the Sierras. Abalone diving was my absolute passion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>But just like Lorraine, Doug has also noticed the decline in abalone. In fact, he’s not even allowed to dive for abalone anymore, because abalone are now considered critically endangered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To understand how we got here, we need to rewind the clock about 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Music starts]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Around 2014, there was a big marine heatwave, driven no doubt by climate change. That heat wave impacted Northern California’s coastline in all kinds of ways. Most notably, killing much of the kelp forest off our coast here. Kelp is the main food source for many ocean species — including, you guessed it, abalone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The marine heat wave also introduced a disease called wasting syndrome… which wiped out much of the sea star population. Like in any ecosystem, when one species is impacted, other species along the food chain are impacted, too. Sea stars prey on sea urchins. So when the sea stars started to decline, purple urchins were without a predator… and they \u003ci>thrived. \u003c/i>So much so that they ate through more than 95 percent of our coastal kelp… causing a near-total kelp forest collapse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Music out]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that’s the root issue here. Because without the kelp, millions of red abalone — the kind that’s native to Northern California — have died due to starvation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Doug Jung: \u003c/b>It’s dead. When I go out there and dive up. It makes me cry because the only thing I see is urchin barrens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>While Doug used to dive down and see this lush kelp forest, teeming with fish and snails and sea stars… now, with the kelp mostly gone, it’s almost like a desert landscape, with urchins covering the ocean floor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Doug Jung: \u003c/b>This is a horror for us. For us who understood the beauty of what we lost.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>So that’s the sad answer to Lorraine’s question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But now, you might be wondering: is there hope for the future of abalone?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Rushing mechanical background sound fade in]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>To answer that question, we’re going to take a tour of the UC Davis Bodega Marine Lab, a facility in Bodega Bay that \u003ci>breeds \u003c/i>abalone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alyssa Frederick: \u003c/b>When we’re doing spawning, what we do is we’ll take an animal out and we’ll check its gonads.\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>This is Alyssa Frederick. She directs the white abalone \u003ci>captive breeding program\u003c/i> here at the lab.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She holds up a five-year-old female abalone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alyssa Frederick: \u003c/b>So they have two eyes on stocks and then they also have their like antenna. That’s curled up underneath. One’s curled up underneath, and one’s right here. Yeah. Pretty cute.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>We’re in a lab holding room full of tanks housing abalone of all ages and sizes. This little lady, in particular, looks like a giant, oval-shaped snail with a big shell that sits flat across her back. Her two eyes are like tentacles, feeling their way around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The spawns — where they induce breeding between the male and female abalone — are a really big deal. They only happen once a year, and I’m visiting just days after the most recent one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alyssa Frederick: \u003c/b>We had 6.7 million eggs last week. It was the largest spawn we’ve had in the program since 2019. I was really excited.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Music starts]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>A lot of planning and coordination goes into a spawn. The abalone basically sit in buckets of chemicals, namely hydrogen peroxide, which causes a cascade of hormones in their bodies that tell them it’s time to spawn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Alyssa says they set the mood — so to speak — in other ways too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alyssa Frederick: \u003c/b>We had the lights off for most of it. We did it in the evening, which, like abalone, are more active in the evening. So my line of thinking is that why not stack the odds in our favor and do it then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Abalone are broadcast spawners, meaning they release their eggs and sperm into the water column and form larvae from there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Alyssa says it’s an intense process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alyssa Frederick:\u003c/b> I mean, the joke, like, I was literally pacing my living room like someone waiting in a maternity ward for someone to give birth\u003ci>.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Music fade out]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>On the day I’m visiting, the little baby abalone are starting to settle, which means they have to flip themselves over and find a place to settle on the bottom of the tank.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We watch them through a microscope:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alyssa Frederick: \u003c/b>Wee! Aww. So cute. Dancing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Now it’s important to note that these are \u003ci>white \u003c/i>abalone. Remember the ones we’ve mostly been talking about so far are red abalone… which are native to \u003ci>Northern\u003c/i> California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>White abalone were more common down in southern California. However, in the ‘60s and ‘70s, as soon as diving technology allowed us to fish deeper water species, we overfished them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alyssa Frederick: \u003c/b>So we overfished, over 99% of what was out in the wild. It was pretty significant. Like, pretty much all of them.\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>White abalone was the first marine invertebrate species to be listed on the Endangered Species Act. There were so few left they weren’t able to reproduce in the wild anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So scientists decided to bring some into captivity, have them reproduce in safe, controlled conditions, and then release them into the wild. They release them when they’re about a year old by placing them in these small cages on the ocean floor and opening up the door.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The goal is to create enough of them out in the wild that they start reproducing on their own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Right now, they’re releasing about five thousand abalone into the wild per year. In order to save the species, models show they need to be releasing twice that amount.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alyssa Frederick: \u003c/b>Right now we still are an order of magnitude below what’s required to save the species.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>But, she says, they’re also an order of magnitude \u003ci>above\u003c/i> where they started.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Music starts]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So there’s some hope for white abalone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As for our red abalone here in Northern California… the situation is more complicated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Rogers-Bennett: \u003c/b>I think the red abalone problem is more difficult.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>This is Laura Rogers-Bennett, a senior environmental scientist with the California Department of Fish and Wildlife. She also works at the Bodega Marine Lab and specializes in \u003ci>red\u003c/i> abalone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She says while white abalone struggle in numbers, they at least have a healthy kelp forest to return to down south.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Rogers-Bennett:\u003c/b> Red abalone has the double whammy of you need kelp. And you need red abalone\u003ci>.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Without kelp, red abalone don’t have a home to return to. And that makes captive breeding — and reintroduction — a lot harder. That’s part of the reason there is no captive breeding program for red abalone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They are doing some things, though, to try to bring back the kelp and, ultimately, the abalone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For example, they’ve identified a few areas off the coast where they allow divers to go out and harvest sea urchins to try to get the kelp to grow back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Rogers-Bennett: \u003c/b>So far they haven’t been that successful in terms of bringing back the kelp.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>There are also captive breeding programs for sea stars, which aim to reintroduce them back into the ecosystem to keep the urchin at bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s definitely an uphill battle. As someone who has done this work for a long time, Laura says it’s emotionally draining.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Rogers-Bennett: \u003c/b>To go back to a spot and see a particular rock, that I visited, at least once a year for 20 years. And to know that that spot is where there’s tons used to be tons of red abalone and to see it just covered with urchin and no algae at all. It’s heartbreaking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>But she’s committed to trying. Trying to get the kelp forest to grow back, trying to recoup the abalone we’ve lost over the last decade. And she hopes the findings from the captive breeding program will help along the way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Rogers-Bennett: \u003c/b>Obviously, in red abalone, we have the passion. I think there’s a chance that we can create some of these pockets of kelp forest. Have them come back in these kelp oases. And, that will be the start of restoration areas for the whole coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>If that happens, we could look forward to a future where Lorraine Page, our question-asker, can beach comb again for abalone pearls. And Doug can revive his long lost hobby; diving down, wrestling octopi along the way, in search of his favorite sea snail.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Music fades out along with the sound of crashing waves]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> That story was reported by KQED’s Dana Cronin. Big thanks to Lorraine Page for asking the question.\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>The North Coast Journal provided the sound of abalone clacking during ceremonial dances for our use in this episode.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’ve ever wondered what all goes into making a Bay Curious story sound the way it does … join producer Katrina Schwartz and I on April 11 for \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/1000/apr-11-600pm-elevating-audio-stories-with-sound-ft-bay-curious\">our talk at the PRX Podcast Garage\u003c/a>. We’re calling it \u003cb>Elevating Audio Stories with Sound\u003c/b> and it’s all about how we make this show with a small but mighty team. We’ll be talking through how we use music, sound effects, archival material, narration and more to bring the Bay Curious podcast to life. Join us in person at KQED’s Headquarters or on the livestream. Tickets are free if you use the code “baycurious” that’s all one word. Grab yours at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/podcastgarage\">kqed.org/podcastgarage\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Why Doesn't California Have More School Buses?",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Weekday mornings are unquestionably hectic for many of us. We’re up early and out the door, headed towards some kind of commute to work. However, adding the responsibility of getting children through that morning routine and to school on time can feel like the day’s biggest accomplishment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Jules Winters first moved to the San Francisco Bay Area from the East Coast, she worried that in that morning rush, she’d get stuck behind a school bus stopping every couple of blocks to pick up kids. She knew from experience that it could make her late to work. But, soon, that concern turned to puzzlement because it never happened. Instead, she noticed a lot of traffic jams around schools at drop-off and pick-up times.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Now, I’m not going anywhere near [a] school because of all the parents dropping off their kids,” she says. “Why aren’t there buses taking students to and from school?” she wondered. “Why is that now the obligation of the family? And how do different families accommodate that? Is that equitable?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>It goes back to Proposition 13\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>Winters isn’t wrong. California has fewer school buses than in other parts of the country. A survey conducted by the Federal Highway Administration found that nationally, almost 40% of school-aged kids ride a school bus. In California, that number is only 8%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like so many questions related to school funding and services, the answer to Winters’ question has roots in the passage of Proposition 13, a constitutional amendment that limited how much a homeowner’s property taxes could increase each year. Property taxes were the primary way school districts funded themselves back then.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The restriction of those sources of revenue in 1978 caused more or less a budget crisis,” says Sam Speroni, a doctoral researcher at the UCLA Institute of Transportation Studies and a researcher at San Jose State’s Mineta Transportation Institute. “So in 1982, the state froze its home-to-school transportation budget with only cost of living adjustments, and that stayed in place until 2022.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11980731\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11980731\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/kids-ride-school-bus.jpg\" alt=\"A line of kids boards a yellow school bus.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/kids-ride-school-bus.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/kids-ride-school-bus-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/kids-ride-school-bus-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/kids-ride-school-bus-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/kids-ride-school-bus-1536x864.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Across the country, about 40% of school-aged kids ride a school bus. In California, that number is closer to 8%. \u003ccite>( Ben Hasty/MediaNews Group/Reading Eagle via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In the intervening years, California’s population has grown, including school-aged children, but the transportation budget has largely stayed the same. That has forced districts to shoulder more of the costs associated with providing school buses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That leads local districts into really difficult decisions about, ‘do we continue providing buses or do we eliminate in-school-house services that are also super important?’” Speroni says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Districts are federally mandated to provide buses to certain groups of students, like those who have transportation, as part of their Individualized Education Program (IEP). However, California does not require school districts to offer school transportation to general education students. As the demands on the school budgets have grown, many districts have chosen not to prioritize school bus funding, which is costly.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Buses to serve equity goals\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Low-income families and families of color often travel the furthest to get to school and have the least resources at their disposal. In recognition of that, some Bay Area districts fund a small number of buses to help meet their equity goals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Berkeley Unified School District assigns elementary students to zones and then places them in schools with an eye toward socioeconomic diversity. The district uses census data on family income and parental education to help it do this. If the student lives further than 1 1/2 miles from their assigned school, the district offers school buses to help them get there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over 1,600 students ride the bus in Berkeley, about 18% of the school community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC4087301904&light=true\" width=\"100%\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Berkeley’s commitment to school buses stems from a legacy of bussing for integration that goes back to 1968. Berkeley was the first sizable city with a large minority population to voluntarily start a two-way bussing program to both bring white students down from the hills and to take Black students up to the hill schools as a way to racially integrate the population of all its schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco also offers some school buses to general education students. It runs 35 buses for K–8 students each day, with routes that largely start on the southeast side of the city and bring kids to schools further north and west. The district says these routes help provide crucial access to language programs and offer more choices to families living in the southeast. The routes serve 46 schools and about 2,000 kids. Families sign up for the school bus when they enroll their children in elementary school. The routes and applications for spots on the bus are assigned at the educational placement center.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Partnering with public transit agencies\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>While many school districts in the San Francisco Bay Area do not provide dedicated school buses for general education students, they often partner with public transportation systems to help families get kids to school. In San Francisco, school-aged kids ride for free on Muni. SamTrans, serving schools in San Mateo County, offers free rides to low-income students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some school districts and public transportation agencies even work together to align schedules. For example, AC Transit, in the East Bay, offers Supplementary Service to School routes designed to align with school bell schedules and to cover the attendance boundaries of certain schools. AC Transit also discounts fares based on income requirements, as does Clipper.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite these efforts, according to the Federal Highway Administration survey, only about 2% of California students take public buses to school. In contrast, 68% get a ride in a private vehicle.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>Calls for school transportation reform\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>Recently, there have been calls to reform California’s school transportation system. A 2014 Legislative Analyst’s Office report highlighted how underfunded the program had become and suggested several ways to reform it. In 2022, Newsom pledged state money to fund 60% of the cost of funding school transportation, the largest increase in years. The governor also allocated $1.5 billion in one-time funds to help districts transition to electric school buses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>State Sen. Nancy Skinner proposed a bill in 2022 that would provide universal access to school transportation for TK–12 public school students in the state. She argued that reliable transportation to school could reduce chronic absenteeism and improve school performance, especially for low-income students whose families more often don’t have cars. An analysis of the Skinner bill found it would cost the state $1.4 billion, which may be why, despite support in the Senate, it didn’t advance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The high cost of providing school buses, paired with the many demands on a school district’s budget, make changes to school transportation policy a tricky proposition going forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Whenever Bay Curious listener Jules Winters thinks about her childhood growing up in the suburbs of Philadelphia, she thinks of her school bus driver.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jules Winters: \u003c/b>My bus driver was Ted for like, most of my life. This one time, there was a snowstorm that just hit, like out of nowhere, and it was like full-on blizzard. And I remember, like, we had been at school maybe only into like 9:00, and they were like, we got to get you out of here, like, now. And so they called all the buses. And we got on the bus with Ted, and we got stuck in a huge snowdrift on the way home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Jules doesn’t remember being scared in that moment, even though it was probably really stressful for Ted. She felt safe. She knew Ted would get her home, he always did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jules Winters: \u003c/b>I have really good memories of taking the bus. Like, I met my best friend on the bus. She had moved into town over the summer and was just starting in a new school, and it’s kind of like I was the first person that she met.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>So when she moved to California as an adult, Jules quickly noticed there weren’t many school buses moving kids around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jules Winters: \u003c/b>I think it’s ironic that initially, I was concerned about traffic, with like being stuck behind a bus, because that was what I was used to on the East Coast. Now, it’s like, I’m not going anywhere near that school because of all the parents dropping off their kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>I live a half block from a school, and trust me, some of the worst traffic jams happen around school start and end times. Since Jules has such positive memories of riding the bus as a student, it got her wondering.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jules Winters: \u003c/b>Why aren’t there buses taking students to and from school?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>And that led to a whole bunch more questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jules Winters: \u003c/b>Why is that now the obligation of the family and how do different families accommodate that? Is that equitable?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Today on Bay Curious, we’re taking a closer look at how kids get to school, why it matters, and if it’s true that there aren’t as many school buses in California as there are in other places. I’m Olivia Alan Price. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Sponsor message]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Today, we’re digging into why you don’t see as many school buses around the Bay area as you might in other parts of the country. And to help answer some of Jules’ questions, we have Bay curious producer and longtime education reporter Katrina Schwartz. Welcome, Katrina.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Hi, Olivia. I was actually quite excited that we got an education question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Yeah, let’s get right into it. Is Jules right? Are there actually fewer school buses here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Yes, Jules is correct. She’s actually put her finger on a real discrepancy. So there’s this survey that the Federal Highway Administration does across the country. And when you look nationwide, almost 40% of school-age kids ride a school bus. And that number has been fairly consistent across many decades. But here in California, only 8% of kids ride a school bus to school, which is the lowest in the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Wow. 8%. You know, I wouldn’t have thought it was that low. Although I guess if I think about it, I don’t tend to see school buses very often when I’m out on the roads.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Right, because they really aren’t that common. In fact, I had a fair amount of trouble finding any kid that rode a school bus until I started asking around in Berkeley, where it is a little bit more common. So, I met Liz Christiano at her house in Berkeley. She actually volunteered to let me come over at this very stressful time in the morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liz Christiano:\u003c/b> Good morning. Welcome, Katrina\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Getting ready time in order to meet up with her son James and his friend Eli, as they were having breakfast and getting ready to go to the school bus. They are both fourth graders at John Muir Elementary, and they remember the first time that they rode the school bus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eli: \u003c/b>It was kind of strange because, like, I didn’t know anybody, but then, like, I got used to it really quickly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James: \u003c/b>It wasn’t really scary. I guess it felt weird.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>And they were not entirely positive about the experience but kind of resigned to it. I would say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eli: \u003c/b>It was pretty loud. There’s like so many people talking at once. And then the bus driver, like, frequently stops or has to use the radio to tell people to be quiet or to stop using foul language on the bus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>OK. That tracks. I remember not loving the bus all the time as a student, but I know that my mom appreciated that it meant she didn’t have to drive me to school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Yes, I think buses are really more for parents than they are for kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liz Christiano: \u003c/b>My morning would be ridiculously stressful if I had to take him, even though we’re not that far away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Liz Christiano says she’s not even sure how she’d manage her morning without the bus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liz Christiano: \u003c/b>The getting up and going. Having to manage all of the logistics of getting everywhere and everything on time is just… it’s a lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>She has another child who’s younger, who goes to a preschool in Oakland. That school starts at the same time as James’ school. So if she was having to take them both to school, it would be this real logistical hurdle to juggle it all. And so she was just very thankful for the bus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liz Christiano: \u003c/b>Having your kid picked up and taken somewhere and then delivered home the amount of life and cognitive space that you get back, I love it. I really love it. The mornings are so much better because of the bus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>James and Eli normally walk to the school bus together without their parents. It’s about a two-block walk. But this morning, because I was there, a bunch of kids met up and we all walked to the school bus together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James: \u003c/b>We’re about to have to go to the bus. Do you want to interview Mia or Micah? they’re also on the bus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/b>So, Micah, how do you feel about the bus?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Micah: \u003c/b>I like that parents still get to work as much as they want. And it’s just fun to ride in the bus with friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/b>What about you, Mia? How do you feel about it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mia: \u003c/b>I really like it. Because even if you’re late to the bus, all you have to do is run, and he’ll wait for you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/b>He waits for you!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mia: \u003c/b>Yeah, and he laughs.\u003ci> (giggles)\u003c/i> This is my first year. So I was very nervous on the first day. I wasn’t expecting that my stop would be the first stop on the whole thing and that it would take like 20 minutes to get to school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/b>Are you annoyed that it takes so long or is it OK?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mia: \u003c/b>It’s OK because then I get to talk to my friends when they get on the bus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/b>So, is this the bus stop?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eli: \u003c/b>It’s a very sad bus stop because it has no sign.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>And, pretty soon the bus pulled up. The kids all kind of gave their moms hugs and then got on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mia: \u003c/b>What we’re trying to say, is the bus is amazing!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James: \u003c/b>No, we are not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Off they went.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>I mean, it sounds like it’s working out really well for them. Why aren’t there more buses around California if it’s helping out this family so much?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Yeah. So this all goes back to Proposition 13, which is a constitutional amendment that passed in 1978. And it really limits how much property taxes can increase for homeowners, which is a big deal for school districts because, before Prop. 13, property taxes were the main way that school districts funded themselves. Since then, that burden has shifted more to the state because of Prop. 13.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sam Speroni: \u003c/b>The restriction of those sources of revenue in 1978 caused more or less a budget crisis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>I talked with Sam Speroni, who is a doctoral student at UCLA studying school transportation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sam Speroni: \u003c/b>So, in 1982, the state froze its home-to-school transportation budget with only cost-of-living adjustments, and that stayed in place until 2022.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>So over the past 40-plus years, California’s population has grown, though. So there’s just this one pot of money that really hasn’t changed that much, and more kids and more need. So, if districts want to offer school buses, they have to kind of shoulder more of the burden to pay for that. And that means tradeoffs. You know, you can’t pay for everything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sam Speroni: \u003c/b>That leads local districts into really difficult decisions about, do we continue providing busses or do we eliminate in school house services that are also super important?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Reading support specialist for example, or an extra social worker?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sam Speroni: \u003c/b>And politically, it’s difficult to justify the elimination of teaching staff if school buses can be reduced first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Obviously, you said it’s an expensive prospect for school districts to think about doing this, but Berkeley is making a bigger investment than others to keep buses going. Why?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>So it goes back to the history of bussing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Archival tape: \u003c/b>The method is bussing, in itself one of the most controversial issues before boards of education throughout this country. But Berkeley is out to prove that it works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>You know, in the 1960s and 70s, school buses were one of the primary ways that districts tried to integrate their schools racially. There was a lot of segregation before that, and school bussing was a way of basically moving kids around, mixing them up, taking them to different neighborhoods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Archival tape: \u003c/b>And with the use of 25 buses, 3,500 elementary children began to commute to and from White and Negro neighborhoods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Trish McDermott is the senior communications director for Berkeley Unified, and she told me this history is fundamental to how Berkeley operates today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Trish McDermott: \u003c/b>In 1968, we integrated our elementary schools, and that really made Berkeley the first larger city in the country with a large minority enrollment to voluntarily desegregate schools. And we did that with our buses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>And Trish says even in progressive Berkeley, bussing for integration wasn’t always popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Trish McDermott: \u003c/b>Big, crowded school board meetings, a lot of pushback.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>They eventually got it done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Trish McDermott: \u003c/b>It’s change that we’re very proud of, and it really is the legacy of our transportation department as it exists today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Archival tape: \u003c/b>Oxford is typical of a school in Berkeley’s white middle-class neighborhood. Last year, Oxford student body had one Negro member. Today, 40% of the 325 students are black.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>It’s a progressive district, and they care about creating schools that are diverse and integrated. So, what they do is assign elementary school students to a zone, and then they look at the census for income data and parental education data to assign students to different schools. And then they use school buses to help kids and families get to the school that they were assigned to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Berkeley is doing this, but how does that stack up against all the other hundreds of school districts in California?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Well, it’s important to know that there’s no law in California that requires school districts to provide buses to general education students. So every district kind of looks at its budget and their student population and decides, you know, can we afford to do this or not? Is this where we want to spend our limited resources? You always have to make tradeoffs. So in a rural district, for example, they often prioritize school transportation because the distances are longer. There maybe aren’t any public transportation options for students, and the schools are more spread out. So bussing is sort of essential to getting kids to school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I will say that every district does need to provide some school busses, because they are federally mandated to transport certain groups of students to school. So if a student has transportation as part of their Individualized Education program, for example, maybe they have a disability or something like that, then they get transportation to school, and that is federally mandated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One district that actually does provide school buses for general education kids is San Francisco, which might actually surprise some families in San Francisco because a lot of families have to drive their kids to school or walk them to school or find some other way to get there. But there are a few school buses, 35 buses that the district runs. And again, it is also for equity reasons, largely the routes start on the south side of the city where there’s often more kids. It tends to be like lower-income neighborhoods, and the routes take kids to the west side of the city, and that’s to provide access to language programs, other schools, and basically makes sure that they have access to the rest of the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>There must be families who would use bussing if it came to them, and it just doesn’t. What do those people do?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Well, you know, some kids walk to school if they’re close enough, some kids bike to school. But about two-thirds of California students get a ride to school in a private vehicle. So obviously that’s not great for the environment. And it’s a big ask of families. I mean, plenty of people don’t have cars, so some districts try to help out by partnering with public transportation systems. So in San Francisco, for example, school kids can ride Muni for free. And the district says that every school is served by at least one Muni bus line or train line. In the East Bay. It’s AC transit, and they actually reach out to the school districts around them and try to align their bus schedules to the school. Will start and end times to make it easier for kids to ride.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz in scene:\u003c/b> I’m here at De Anza High School in Richmond. And it’s interesting because, like, all the AC transit buses are waiting here, like school buses. They’re pulled up off the street in this little pick-up zone. And there’s a bunch of kids who came out of school who are waiting around for the buses to leave.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Sound of fare machine beeping]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>About 20 minutes after school let out…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz in scene:\u003c/b> So all the kids are, like, crowded around the door waiting to get on the bus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Sounds of bus honking and accelerating]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>The bus takes off. And it takes a route through the school boundary zone so that all these kids can get back home. But if there was another patron on the street who wanted to ride, they could easily get on the bus anywhere along the route.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>I mean, I imagine this, you know, really boils down to sort of a problem on the equity front, right? Because, OK, even if parents are able to take their kids to school because of their schedule, that still is going to mean they’re going to have to have a car that’s operational. That requires a certain amount of money. Be up to date on insurance. Or I mean, the other thing to consider is like, that’s going to limit the shift work that perhaps parents could do if they’re going to have to know that they need to be available to take their kid to school at a certain time. That’s a constraint that, especially if you’re living, you know, on a low-income salary, that’s just one more thing that you’re sort of juggling in an already pretty complicated life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Yeah, I think it is an equity issue, although it’s a little bit unclear how big of one it is. I mean, obviously any family that has more flexibility and more mobility is going to have more choices. And all the things that you laid out are true. But there are a lot of other factors that make schools unequal in California. So it’s hard to say how much of a difference a school bus would really make to the whole big picture. One thing that Sam Speroni says, though, is that if California as a state wants to even the playing field for families by offering choices about what schools a family might send their kid to, transportation really needs to be part of that conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sam Speroni: \u003c/b>Ultimately, you don’t have school choice if you don’t have transportation to those choices.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>And then the other problem that Sam Speroni brought up — this is a national problem — there’s a huge school bus driver shortage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sam Speroni: \u003c/b>With the buses we already have. We’re struggling to staff them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>The school bus drivers have to have a special commercial driver’s license, which is also what you use for trucking or other types of delivery jobs. And often those jobs pay more. So in this current economy, it’s very hard to retain your school bus drivers. And we’re seeing that even in places that have much more robust bussing, they’re having a lot of trouble staffing their buses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Now, given everything you’ve learned, are there likely to be any changes to how many school buses California schools offer?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>I mean, a number of people have flagged this as a problem. It’s an equity issue, as we already talked about. So, State Sen. Nancy Skinner actually introduced a bill in 2022 that would have provided universal school transportation for California public school students. And she did that because she argued that providing dedicated funds for school transportation would actually improve attendance. It would help with chronic absenteeism, and especially for low income students, it could also improve outcomes at school, too. But this bill was estimated to cost the state $1.4 billion. And so it had some support in the state Senate, but ultimately it didn’t advance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>$1.4 billion is a lot of money. But still, you know, as someone who rode a school bus, I do have a little bit of nostalgia for those big yellow buses. And I find it a little sad that, you know, I have a 3-year-old, and he isn’t likely to ride a bus in California and have that special relationship with his bus driver.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Yeah, I mean, I definitely got the sense from our question-asker, Jules, that she finds it a bit sad. I mean, she really had a positive experience on the bus and felt like it really created community. And not having them around here in the Bay area seems like just another way that the social fabric is fraying a little bit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jules Winters: \u003c/b>I guess I’ve always imagined that buses are like a library or a firefighter station or a police station like it’s this community service that is part of the inlaid structure of what makes it a community or what makes it a school for that community. So it just boggles my mind that it’s not part of any of these communities here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Well, Katrina Schwartz, thank you so much for bringing the story to us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>You’re welcome. I’m sorry I couldn’t get more cute kids on buses. Apparently, there’s a lot of liability issues with getting on school buses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>The woes of education reporting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Yes. It’s hard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/b>Big thanks to Jules Winters for asking this week’s question. If you’ve got a question you’d like Bay Curious to take on, head to baycurious.org and fill out our form at the top of the page. While you’re there, vote in our March voting round. Here are the options under consideration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 1 \u003c/b>Have you noticed all the motels along Lombard Street? I have. Ever since I was a kid, I’ve always wondered why. Can you find out?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 2 \u003c/b>At the San Francisco Opera House, there’s a chandelier high above the orchestra level. How do they change the light bulbs when they burn out?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 3 \u003c/b>San Mateo County has an official shared housing program, which helps people find housing in someone else’s home. How well is it working?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/b>Again, that’s \u003ca href=\"http://www.baycurious.org\">baycurious.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Weekday mornings are unquestionably hectic for many of us. We’re up early and out the door, headed towards some kind of commute to work. However, adding the responsibility of getting children through that morning routine and to school on time can feel like the day’s biggest accomplishment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Jules Winters first moved to the San Francisco Bay Area from the East Coast, she worried that in that morning rush, she’d get stuck behind a school bus stopping every couple of blocks to pick up kids. She knew from experience that it could make her late to work. But, soon, that concern turned to puzzlement because it never happened. Instead, she noticed a lot of traffic jams around schools at drop-off and pick-up times.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Now, I’m not going anywhere near [a] school because of all the parents dropping off their kids,” she says. “Why aren’t there buses taking students to and from school?” she wondered. “Why is that now the obligation of the family? And how do different families accommodate that? Is that equitable?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>It goes back to Proposition 13\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>Winters isn’t wrong. California has fewer school buses than in other parts of the country. A survey conducted by the Federal Highway Administration found that nationally, almost 40% of school-aged kids ride a school bus. In California, that number is only 8%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like so many questions related to school funding and services, the answer to Winters’ question has roots in the passage of Proposition 13, a constitutional amendment that limited how much a homeowner’s property taxes could increase each year. Property taxes were the primary way school districts funded themselves back then.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The restriction of those sources of revenue in 1978 caused more or less a budget crisis,” says Sam Speroni, a doctoral researcher at the UCLA Institute of Transportation Studies and a researcher at San Jose State’s Mineta Transportation Institute. “So in 1982, the state froze its home-to-school transportation budget with only cost of living adjustments, and that stayed in place until 2022.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11980731\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11980731\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/kids-ride-school-bus.jpg\" alt=\"A line of kids boards a yellow school bus.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/kids-ride-school-bus.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/kids-ride-school-bus-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/kids-ride-school-bus-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/kids-ride-school-bus-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/kids-ride-school-bus-1536x864.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Across the country, about 40% of school-aged kids ride a school bus. In California, that number is closer to 8%. \u003ccite>( Ben Hasty/MediaNews Group/Reading Eagle via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In the intervening years, California’s population has grown, including school-aged children, but the transportation budget has largely stayed the same. That has forced districts to shoulder more of the costs associated with providing school buses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That leads local districts into really difficult decisions about, ‘do we continue providing buses or do we eliminate in-school-house services that are also super important?’” Speroni says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Districts are federally mandated to provide buses to certain groups of students, like those who have transportation, as part of their Individualized Education Program (IEP). However, California does not require school districts to offer school transportation to general education students. As the demands on the school budgets have grown, many districts have chosen not to prioritize school bus funding, which is costly.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Buses to serve equity goals\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Low-income families and families of color often travel the furthest to get to school and have the least resources at their disposal. In recognition of that, some Bay Area districts fund a small number of buses to help meet their equity goals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Berkeley Unified School District assigns elementary students to zones and then places them in schools with an eye toward socioeconomic diversity. The district uses census data on family income and parental education to help it do this. If the student lives further than 1 1/2 miles from their assigned school, the district offers school buses to help them get there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over 1,600 students ride the bus in Berkeley, about 18% of the school community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC4087301904&light=true\" width=\"100%\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Berkeley’s commitment to school buses stems from a legacy of bussing for integration that goes back to 1968. Berkeley was the first sizable city with a large minority population to voluntarily start a two-way bussing program to both bring white students down from the hills and to take Black students up to the hill schools as a way to racially integrate the population of all its schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco also offers some school buses to general education students. It runs 35 buses for K–8 students each day, with routes that largely start on the southeast side of the city and bring kids to schools further north and west. The district says these routes help provide crucial access to language programs and offer more choices to families living in the southeast. The routes serve 46 schools and about 2,000 kids. Families sign up for the school bus when they enroll their children in elementary school. The routes and applications for spots on the bus are assigned at the educational placement center.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Partnering with public transit agencies\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>While many school districts in the San Francisco Bay Area do not provide dedicated school buses for general education students, they often partner with public transportation systems to help families get kids to school. In San Francisco, school-aged kids ride for free on Muni. SamTrans, serving schools in San Mateo County, offers free rides to low-income students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some school districts and public transportation agencies even work together to align schedules. For example, AC Transit, in the East Bay, offers Supplementary Service to School routes designed to align with school bell schedules and to cover the attendance boundaries of certain schools. AC Transit also discounts fares based on income requirements, as does Clipper.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite these efforts, according to the Federal Highway Administration survey, only about 2% of California students take public buses to school. In contrast, 68% get a ride in a private vehicle.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>Calls for school transportation reform\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>Recently, there have been calls to reform California’s school transportation system. A 2014 Legislative Analyst’s Office report highlighted how underfunded the program had become and suggested several ways to reform it. In 2022, Newsom pledged state money to fund 60% of the cost of funding school transportation, the largest increase in years. The governor also allocated $1.5 billion in one-time funds to help districts transition to electric school buses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>State Sen. Nancy Skinner proposed a bill in 2022 that would provide universal access to school transportation for TK–12 public school students in the state. She argued that reliable transportation to school could reduce chronic absenteeism and improve school performance, especially for low-income students whose families more often don’t have cars. An analysis of the Skinner bill found it would cost the state $1.4 billion, which may be why, despite support in the Senate, it didn’t advance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The high cost of providing school buses, paired with the many demands on a school district’s budget, make changes to school transportation policy a tricky proposition going forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Whenever Bay Curious listener Jules Winters thinks about her childhood growing up in the suburbs of Philadelphia, she thinks of her school bus driver.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jules Winters: \u003c/b>My bus driver was Ted for like, most of my life. This one time, there was a snowstorm that just hit, like out of nowhere, and it was like full-on blizzard. And I remember, like, we had been at school maybe only into like 9:00, and they were like, we got to get you out of here, like, now. And so they called all the buses. And we got on the bus with Ted, and we got stuck in a huge snowdrift on the way home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Jules doesn’t remember being scared in that moment, even though it was probably really stressful for Ted. She felt safe. She knew Ted would get her home, he always did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jules Winters: \u003c/b>I have really good memories of taking the bus. Like, I met my best friend on the bus. She had moved into town over the summer and was just starting in a new school, and it’s kind of like I was the first person that she met.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>So when she moved to California as an adult, Jules quickly noticed there weren’t many school buses moving kids around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jules Winters: \u003c/b>I think it’s ironic that initially, I was concerned about traffic, with like being stuck behind a bus, because that was what I was used to on the East Coast. Now, it’s like, I’m not going anywhere near that school because of all the parents dropping off their kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>I live a half block from a school, and trust me, some of the worst traffic jams happen around school start and end times. Since Jules has such positive memories of riding the bus as a student, it got her wondering.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jules Winters: \u003c/b>Why aren’t there buses taking students to and from school?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>And that led to a whole bunch more questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jules Winters: \u003c/b>Why is that now the obligation of the family and how do different families accommodate that? Is that equitable?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Today on Bay Curious, we’re taking a closer look at how kids get to school, why it matters, and if it’s true that there aren’t as many school buses in California as there are in other places. I’m Olivia Alan Price. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Sponsor message]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Today, we’re digging into why you don’t see as many school buses around the Bay area as you might in other parts of the country. And to help answer some of Jules’ questions, we have Bay curious producer and longtime education reporter Katrina Schwartz. Welcome, Katrina.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Hi, Olivia. I was actually quite excited that we got an education question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Yeah, let’s get right into it. Is Jules right? Are there actually fewer school buses here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Yes, Jules is correct. She’s actually put her finger on a real discrepancy. So there’s this survey that the Federal Highway Administration does across the country. And when you look nationwide, almost 40% of school-age kids ride a school bus. And that number has been fairly consistent across many decades. But here in California, only 8% of kids ride a school bus to school, which is the lowest in the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Wow. 8%. You know, I wouldn’t have thought it was that low. Although I guess if I think about it, I don’t tend to see school buses very often when I’m out on the roads.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Right, because they really aren’t that common. In fact, I had a fair amount of trouble finding any kid that rode a school bus until I started asking around in Berkeley, where it is a little bit more common. So, I met Liz Christiano at her house in Berkeley. She actually volunteered to let me come over at this very stressful time in the morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liz Christiano:\u003c/b> Good morning. Welcome, Katrina\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Getting ready time in order to meet up with her son James and his friend Eli, as they were having breakfast and getting ready to go to the school bus. They are both fourth graders at John Muir Elementary, and they remember the first time that they rode the school bus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eli: \u003c/b>It was kind of strange because, like, I didn’t know anybody, but then, like, I got used to it really quickly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James: \u003c/b>It wasn’t really scary. I guess it felt weird.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>And they were not entirely positive about the experience but kind of resigned to it. I would say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eli: \u003c/b>It was pretty loud. There’s like so many people talking at once. And then the bus driver, like, frequently stops or has to use the radio to tell people to be quiet or to stop using foul language on the bus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>OK. That tracks. I remember not loving the bus all the time as a student, but I know that my mom appreciated that it meant she didn’t have to drive me to school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Yes, I think buses are really more for parents than they are for kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liz Christiano: \u003c/b>My morning would be ridiculously stressful if I had to take him, even though we’re not that far away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Liz Christiano says she’s not even sure how she’d manage her morning without the bus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liz Christiano: \u003c/b>The getting up and going. Having to manage all of the logistics of getting everywhere and everything on time is just… it’s a lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>She has another child who’s younger, who goes to a preschool in Oakland. That school starts at the same time as James’ school. So if she was having to take them both to school, it would be this real logistical hurdle to juggle it all. And so she was just very thankful for the bus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liz Christiano: \u003c/b>Having your kid picked up and taken somewhere and then delivered home the amount of life and cognitive space that you get back, I love it. I really love it. The mornings are so much better because of the bus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>James and Eli normally walk to the school bus together without their parents. It’s about a two-block walk. But this morning, because I was there, a bunch of kids met up and we all walked to the school bus together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James: \u003c/b>We’re about to have to go to the bus. Do you want to interview Mia or Micah? they’re also on the bus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/b>So, Micah, how do you feel about the bus?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Micah: \u003c/b>I like that parents still get to work as much as they want. And it’s just fun to ride in the bus with friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/b>What about you, Mia? How do you feel about it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mia: \u003c/b>I really like it. Because even if you’re late to the bus, all you have to do is run, and he’ll wait for you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/b>He waits for you!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mia: \u003c/b>Yeah, and he laughs.\u003ci> (giggles)\u003c/i> This is my first year. So I was very nervous on the first day. I wasn’t expecting that my stop would be the first stop on the whole thing and that it would take like 20 minutes to get to school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/b>Are you annoyed that it takes so long or is it OK?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mia: \u003c/b>It’s OK because then I get to talk to my friends when they get on the bus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/b>So, is this the bus stop?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eli: \u003c/b>It’s a very sad bus stop because it has no sign.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>And, pretty soon the bus pulled up. The kids all kind of gave their moms hugs and then got on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mia: \u003c/b>What we’re trying to say, is the bus is amazing!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James: \u003c/b>No, we are not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Off they went.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>I mean, it sounds like it’s working out really well for them. Why aren’t there more buses around California if it’s helping out this family so much?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Yeah. So this all goes back to Proposition 13, which is a constitutional amendment that passed in 1978. And it really limits how much property taxes can increase for homeowners, which is a big deal for school districts because, before Prop. 13, property taxes were the main way that school districts funded themselves. Since then, that burden has shifted more to the state because of Prop. 13.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sam Speroni: \u003c/b>The restriction of those sources of revenue in 1978 caused more or less a budget crisis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>I talked with Sam Speroni, who is a doctoral student at UCLA studying school transportation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sam Speroni: \u003c/b>So, in 1982, the state froze its home-to-school transportation budget with only cost-of-living adjustments, and that stayed in place until 2022.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>So over the past 40-plus years, California’s population has grown, though. So there’s just this one pot of money that really hasn’t changed that much, and more kids and more need. So, if districts want to offer school buses, they have to kind of shoulder more of the burden to pay for that. And that means tradeoffs. You know, you can’t pay for everything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sam Speroni: \u003c/b>That leads local districts into really difficult decisions about, do we continue providing busses or do we eliminate in school house services that are also super important?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Reading support specialist for example, or an extra social worker?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sam Speroni: \u003c/b>And politically, it’s difficult to justify the elimination of teaching staff if school buses can be reduced first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Obviously, you said it’s an expensive prospect for school districts to think about doing this, but Berkeley is making a bigger investment than others to keep buses going. Why?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>So it goes back to the history of bussing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Archival tape: \u003c/b>The method is bussing, in itself one of the most controversial issues before boards of education throughout this country. But Berkeley is out to prove that it works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>You know, in the 1960s and 70s, school buses were one of the primary ways that districts tried to integrate their schools racially. There was a lot of segregation before that, and school bussing was a way of basically moving kids around, mixing them up, taking them to different neighborhoods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Archival tape: \u003c/b>And with the use of 25 buses, 3,500 elementary children began to commute to and from White and Negro neighborhoods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Trish McDermott is the senior communications director for Berkeley Unified, and she told me this history is fundamental to how Berkeley operates today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Trish McDermott: \u003c/b>In 1968, we integrated our elementary schools, and that really made Berkeley the first larger city in the country with a large minority enrollment to voluntarily desegregate schools. And we did that with our buses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>And Trish says even in progressive Berkeley, bussing for integration wasn’t always popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Trish McDermott: \u003c/b>Big, crowded school board meetings, a lot of pushback.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>They eventually got it done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Trish McDermott: \u003c/b>It’s change that we’re very proud of, and it really is the legacy of our transportation department as it exists today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Archival tape: \u003c/b>Oxford is typical of a school in Berkeley’s white middle-class neighborhood. Last year, Oxford student body had one Negro member. Today, 40% of the 325 students are black.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>It’s a progressive district, and they care about creating schools that are diverse and integrated. So, what they do is assign elementary school students to a zone, and then they look at the census for income data and parental education data to assign students to different schools. And then they use school buses to help kids and families get to the school that they were assigned to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Berkeley is doing this, but how does that stack up against all the other hundreds of school districts in California?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Well, it’s important to know that there’s no law in California that requires school districts to provide buses to general education students. So every district kind of looks at its budget and their student population and decides, you know, can we afford to do this or not? Is this where we want to spend our limited resources? You always have to make tradeoffs. So in a rural district, for example, they often prioritize school transportation because the distances are longer. There maybe aren’t any public transportation options for students, and the schools are more spread out. So bussing is sort of essential to getting kids to school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I will say that every district does need to provide some school busses, because they are federally mandated to transport certain groups of students to school. So if a student has transportation as part of their Individualized Education program, for example, maybe they have a disability or something like that, then they get transportation to school, and that is federally mandated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One district that actually does provide school buses for general education kids is San Francisco, which might actually surprise some families in San Francisco because a lot of families have to drive their kids to school or walk them to school or find some other way to get there. But there are a few school buses, 35 buses that the district runs. And again, it is also for equity reasons, largely the routes start on the south side of the city where there’s often more kids. It tends to be like lower-income neighborhoods, and the routes take kids to the west side of the city, and that’s to provide access to language programs, other schools, and basically makes sure that they have access to the rest of the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>There must be families who would use bussing if it came to them, and it just doesn’t. What do those people do?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Well, you know, some kids walk to school if they’re close enough, some kids bike to school. But about two-thirds of California students get a ride to school in a private vehicle. So obviously that’s not great for the environment. And it’s a big ask of families. I mean, plenty of people don’t have cars, so some districts try to help out by partnering with public transportation systems. So in San Francisco, for example, school kids can ride Muni for free. And the district says that every school is served by at least one Muni bus line or train line. In the East Bay. It’s AC transit, and they actually reach out to the school districts around them and try to align their bus schedules to the school. Will start and end times to make it easier for kids to ride.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz in scene:\u003c/b> I’m here at De Anza High School in Richmond. And it’s interesting because, like, all the AC transit buses are waiting here, like school buses. They’re pulled up off the street in this little pick-up zone. And there’s a bunch of kids who came out of school who are waiting around for the buses to leave.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Sound of fare machine beeping]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>About 20 minutes after school let out…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz in scene:\u003c/b> So all the kids are, like, crowded around the door waiting to get on the bus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Sounds of bus honking and accelerating]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>The bus takes off. And it takes a route through the school boundary zone so that all these kids can get back home. But if there was another patron on the street who wanted to ride, they could easily get on the bus anywhere along the route.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>I mean, I imagine this, you know, really boils down to sort of a problem on the equity front, right? Because, OK, even if parents are able to take their kids to school because of their schedule, that still is going to mean they’re going to have to have a car that’s operational. That requires a certain amount of money. Be up to date on insurance. Or I mean, the other thing to consider is like, that’s going to limit the shift work that perhaps parents could do if they’re going to have to know that they need to be available to take their kid to school at a certain time. That’s a constraint that, especially if you’re living, you know, on a low-income salary, that’s just one more thing that you’re sort of juggling in an already pretty complicated life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Yeah, I think it is an equity issue, although it’s a little bit unclear how big of one it is. I mean, obviously any family that has more flexibility and more mobility is going to have more choices. And all the things that you laid out are true. But there are a lot of other factors that make schools unequal in California. So it’s hard to say how much of a difference a school bus would really make to the whole big picture. One thing that Sam Speroni says, though, is that if California as a state wants to even the playing field for families by offering choices about what schools a family might send their kid to, transportation really needs to be part of that conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sam Speroni: \u003c/b>Ultimately, you don’t have school choice if you don’t have transportation to those choices.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>And then the other problem that Sam Speroni brought up — this is a national problem — there’s a huge school bus driver shortage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sam Speroni: \u003c/b>With the buses we already have. We’re struggling to staff them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>The school bus drivers have to have a special commercial driver’s license, which is also what you use for trucking or other types of delivery jobs. And often those jobs pay more. So in this current economy, it’s very hard to retain your school bus drivers. And we’re seeing that even in places that have much more robust bussing, they’re having a lot of trouble staffing their buses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Now, given everything you’ve learned, are there likely to be any changes to how many school buses California schools offer?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>I mean, a number of people have flagged this as a problem. It’s an equity issue, as we already talked about. So, State Sen. Nancy Skinner actually introduced a bill in 2022 that would have provided universal school transportation for California public school students. And she did that because she argued that providing dedicated funds for school transportation would actually improve attendance. It would help with chronic absenteeism, and especially for low income students, it could also improve outcomes at school, too. But this bill was estimated to cost the state $1.4 billion. And so it had some support in the state Senate, but ultimately it didn’t advance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>$1.4 billion is a lot of money. But still, you know, as someone who rode a school bus, I do have a little bit of nostalgia for those big yellow buses. And I find it a little sad that, you know, I have a 3-year-old, and he isn’t likely to ride a bus in California and have that special relationship with his bus driver.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Yeah, I mean, I definitely got the sense from our question-asker, Jules, that she finds it a bit sad. I mean, she really had a positive experience on the bus and felt like it really created community. And not having them around here in the Bay area seems like just another way that the social fabric is fraying a little bit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jules Winters: \u003c/b>I guess I’ve always imagined that buses are like a library or a firefighter station or a police station like it’s this community service that is part of the inlaid structure of what makes it a community or what makes it a school for that community. So it just boggles my mind that it’s not part of any of these communities here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Well, Katrina Schwartz, thank you so much for bringing the story to us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>You’re welcome. I’m sorry I couldn’t get more cute kids on buses. Apparently, there’s a lot of liability issues with getting on school buses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>The woes of education reporting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Yes. It’s hard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/b>Big thanks to Jules Winters for asking this week’s question. If you’ve got a question you’d like Bay Curious to take on, head to baycurious.org and fill out our form at the top of the page. While you’re there, vote in our March voting round. Here are the options under consideration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 1 \u003c/b>Have you noticed all the motels along Lombard Street? I have. Ever since I was a kid, I’ve always wondered why. Can you find out?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 2 \u003c/b>At the San Francisco Opera House, there’s a chandelier high above the orchestra level. How do they change the light bulbs when they burn out?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 3 \u003c/b>San Mateo County has an official shared housing program, which helps people find housing in someone else’s home. How well is it working?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/b>Again, that’s \u003ca href=\"http://www.baycurious.org\">baycurious.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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},
"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Drag as an art form dates back centuries, but as shows like MTV’s RuPaul’s Drag Race have grown a worldwide following, drag has become more visible than ever. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The show’s namesake and host, RuPaul, arguably the most famous drag queen in the world, is now the most decorated television host in Emmy history. Not Johnny Carson, not Barbara Walters … RuPaul.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there is also a heated debate coursing through statehouses and on some media programs about whether or not drag queens are appropriate entertainment for adults and children alike. Florida, Montana, Tennessee and Texas all have laws that, though unenforceable due to a federal court order, would ban drag performances.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In San Francisco, this debate over drag is long settled.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Drag is as crucial to the identity of this city as the cable car,” said Peaches Christ, a San Francisco drag performer, director and provocateur for the last three decades. “Straight people have wigs in this town!” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Drag has been breaking ground and creating a community for San Franciscans for almost a century.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>But how did it get that way?\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Drag has been an active part of the entertainment scene in San Francisco since the 1930s.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Early drag in San Francisco was presented in a way that was safe for straight audiences,” Christ said. “It traditionally has meant a cis man who dons women’s clothes, for entertainment purposes, usually pretty fabulous and flamboyant.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Finocchio’s Club was an institution for 60 years in the North Beach neighborhood and featured “female illusion.” This was light-hearted fun. None of the heavy stuff and definitely no politics. But that was about to shift.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11980250\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11980250\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/Medium-sized-JPEG.jpg\" alt=\"A black and white photo featuring eight drag queens posing on a multi-tiered stage, wearing gowns.\" width=\"600\" height=\"489\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/Medium-sized-JPEG.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/Medium-sized-JPEG-160x130.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Finocchio’s nightclub was known for its “female impersonators” who entertained patrons nightly. This 1958 photo shows the cast of the floor show. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Her Royal Majesty, Empress of San Francisco, José I, The Widow Norton\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At The Black Cat Club, another North Beach hot spot, Jose Sarria was a cocktail waiter turned drag queen who sang operatic arias. During Sarria’s performances, she started to encourage patrons to stop living double lives and to come out of the closet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 1961, Sarria ran for a San Francisco Board of Supervisors seat. He lost, but his campaign was an early demonstration of the power of the gay voting bloc that would eventually elect Harvey Milk.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11980181\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1493px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11980181\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-1322409068.jpg\" alt=\"A person wearing a white full body leotard and a pink tutu and white angel wings and a crown. They are gesturing toward the camera, as if to take flight.\" width=\"1493\" height=\"991\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-1322409068.jpg 1493w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-1322409068-800x531.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-1322409068-1020x677.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-1322409068-160x106.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1493px) 100vw, 1493px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Jose Sarria, a.k.a. The Widow Norton, dances as the Sugar Plum Fairy during the Dance-Along Nutcracker in 2006. \u003ccite>(LEA SUZUKI/The San Francisco Chronicle via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After the political defeat, Sarria would proclaim himself “Her Royal Majesty, Empress of San Francisco, José I, The Widow Norton,” and create the Imperial Court. That network of LGBTQ charities is still in operation today and holds a visible presence in San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Compton’s Cafeteria Riot\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the Tenderloin, at Taylor and Turk Streets, a 24-hour diner called Compton’s Cafeteria was a generally safe spot for the neighborhood’s queer, gender non-conforming, drag, trans and sex-worker population.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Female impersonation” was illegal in the sixties, and police regularly harassed people who appeared to be in violation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In August 1966, diner staff called the police one night and reported that the patrons had become rowdy. Though police records from the time no longer exist, an officer reportedly grabbed a trans woman to arrest her and she responded by throwing a cup of coffee in his face.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“It broke out into a rebellion that took to the streets,” Christ said, “and it’s worth noting that these trailblazers existed. They were trans women and drag performers who were fighting police on the streets of the Tenderloin.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Compton’s Cafeteria Riot didn’t result in the widespread change that Stonewall would a few years later but it is the first known act of widespread resistance to police harassment in U.S. history.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The Cockettes\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the sixties a counter-culture drag troupe called the Cockettes was breaking down walls in drag expression.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“They were hippies. They would put glitter in their beards, and they lived together like a commune,” Christ said. “They were an inclusive drag troupe that included straight people, cis women, men, trans women.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11980176\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11980176\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-603956872.jpg\" alt=\"Four performers in exaggereateid costumes on stage.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1324\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-603956872.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-603956872-800x552.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-603956872-1020x703.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-603956872-160x110.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-603956872-1536x1059.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Cockettes perform Tinsel Tarts in a Hot Coma in New York in July 1971. \u003ccite>(Jack Mitchell/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Cockettes are remembered for their outlandish parties at the Palace Theatre in North Beach and for their gender-bending expression of drag that pushed the boundaries beyond the usual ‘cis man in a dress’ drag formula.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“The Cockettes were fueled by glitter and drugs and lots and lots of talent,” added Christ. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s worth noting that LGBTQ recording artist and San Francisco disco legend Sylvester, best known for the song \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3vtOEiO6TY\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You Make Me Feel (Mighty Real)\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, was once a Cockette. The larger group would fizzle out almost as quickly as they began, but some members still perform today.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The Ministry of the Sisters\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">During the 80s and early 90s, AIDS wreaked havoc on the city’s gay population. A ragtag group of charitable drag queen nuns sprang into action to try to save lives and became de facto spiritual leaders in the wake of the loss, fear and uncertainty.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“It was scary. Nobody knew what it was. All people knew was that gay men were getting sick and dying,” Sister Roma said. She joined the Sisters in 1987 in the midst of what she called AIDS hysteria. “I remember checking my tongue for white spots and feeling my lymph nodes.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Roma and the Sisters created and distributed a safer-sex pamphlet, Play Fair!, believed to be the first to use sex-positive language and humor, to the LGBTQ community, along with boatloads of condoms.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“We went out almost every night, through all the bars, getting condoms into hands, getting condoms into people’s minds,” Roma said, “Because we wanted to protect people and to save lives.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When they weren’t educating the community, the Sisters fought for the visibility of the AIDS crisis at a time when the federal government wouldn’t acknowledge the problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“There was a real consensus among some people that HIV/AIDS wasn’t an issue because it was killing all the right people,” Roma said. “It was intravenous drug users, prostitutes and faggots. Who cares, right?”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As medications began to move HIV from a death sentence to a manageable disease, the Sisters’ ranks continued to swell with community activists and philanthropists simply delighted to play with their gender expression in interesting ways.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11980178\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11980178\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/118798286_3373916526051177_8781469385850932712_n.jpg\" alt='Seven \"sisters\" in their drag nun attire stand in front of Dolores Park in San Francisco. Near them is a sign that says \"wear a mask.\" They are all wearing masks as well.' width=\"1920\" height=\"1281\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/118798286_3373916526051177_8781469385850932712_n.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/118798286_3373916526051177_8781469385850932712_n-800x534.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/118798286_3373916526051177_8781469385850932712_n-1020x681.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/118798286_3373916526051177_8781469385850932712_n-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/118798286_3373916526051177_8781469385850932712_n-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence showed up to spread best practices during the COVID-19 pandemic, just as they did at the start of the AIDS crisis. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Sister Roma)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Sisters are now a worldwide organization but are just as active in San Francisco as ever. You can find the Sisters at community events, pride festivals, marches and they host the massive Easter in the Park featuring the Hunky Jesus and Foxy Mary contests. That event attracts tens of thousands of all ages and orientations to Dolores Park each Easter and has for 45 years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The Early Aughts\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the late nineties and early 2000s, the drag scene in San Francisco was getting edgier. A gritty show called “Trannyshack” was packing The Stud, a tiny bar in SoMa, on Tuesday nights for a wild party that completely broke the rules of drag.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Trannyshack was wild,” said Christ, who got her start in San Francisco drag at Trannyshack, “it was artistic, it was crazy, it was outrageous, it was drug and alcohol-fueled, and it was pure.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“[The word ‘tranny’ was] an irreverent and endearing way to refer to people who fell outside of the gender norm. It referred to drag queens, trans people, transvestites, cross-dressers, and it referred to every little nuance in between,” Christ said. “Trannyshack, a place where all these people could go and be accepted and party and to have fun.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Over the next two decades the host of Trannyshack, drag queen Heklina, became a beloved figure in San Francisco’s LGBTQ community despite her abrasive on-stage persona.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11980189\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11980189\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-1157521655.jpg\" alt=\"A drag queen wears a orange-peach sequined gown. They are standing in front of a red curtain, speaking into a microphone. They have a big blonde wig, and lots of jewelry. \" width=\"1920\" height=\"1278\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-1157521655.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-1157521655-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-1157521655-1020x679.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-1157521655-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-1157521655-1536x1022.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Heklina performs onstage at the Roast Battle at the 2019 Clusterfest. Her on-stage persona had edge, but behind the scenes, Heklina was a kind person interested in charitable work. \u003ccite>(Jeff Kravitz/FilmMagic for Clusterfest)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Heklina presented herself in many ways as an unapologetically greedy bitch,” joked Christ, adding that though Heklina was always helping the community behind the scenes, “she was uncomfortable getting the credit for it. She was a secret nice person.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When Heklina passed away suddenly in April of 2023 the San Francisco LGBTQ community organized a large memorial service that shut down the Castro for hours. The community came out by the thousands to mourn.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“The reason thousands of people showed up for her memorial wasn’t just because she was a funny entertainer,” Christ said, though she acknowledged that Heklina was hilarious, “People showed up in San Francisco because she had created community for them.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Drag Story Hour\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2015, the first drag performer for Drag Story Hour was Per Sia, who said she was leading a double life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“I was working at a children’s afterschool arts program during the day and performing in drag at night,” she said. When she was contacted to host the first Drag Story Hour, she said yes but had reservations. ” Up until that point, I kept everything separate.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The idea behind Drag Story Hour is a representation for children to have glamorous, positive and queer role models and to feel free to play with their own gender expression. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After the first Drag Story Hour, Per Sia knew she’d done the right thing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“There was this feeling of calmness,” she said, “all of my identities were in one place.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11980192\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 960px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11980192\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/image2.jpeg\" alt=\"A drag queen stands, gesturing dramatically while reading from a book. A handful of children sit by her feet.\" width=\"960\" height=\"720\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/image2.jpeg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/image2-800x600.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/image2-160x120.jpeg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 960px) 100vw, 960px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Per Sia began reading to children at the first ever Drag Queen Story Hour in San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Per Sia)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some conservative groups have criticized Drag Story Hour, but that doesn’t slow the organization or Per Sia down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“I still push forward because I love what I do,” Per Sia said, admitting that the threats from conservative groups have been scary. But she said it’s all worth it because she is setting an example for the children.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Little kids have the vocabulary to really identify what’s really going on inside, and that is so special to me,” Per Sia said with pride, “and it’s like, ‘I did that!’”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“There are now 20-something chapters of Drag Story Hour around the world,” Per Sia said, beaming, “I’m just over the moon to think that I am a part of that history.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Defending Drag\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As drag becomes more visible and harder to ignore, mainstream society is beginning to wrestle with the issue. By contrast, the San Francisco we know has been forged by drag.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“We have a transgender cultural district, a leather cultural district, the Castro cultural district. We have a drag laureate, ” proclaimed Sister Roma, “San Francisco does remain the beacon of hope to our queer community worldwide.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“To remove drag would be like taking the city and turning it black and white,” Peaches Christ said. “San Francisco is full of color and fabulousness and by removing drag from it and all of its variations, I think you’d really mute what makes it special. This city is run by drag.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">From North Beach to the Tenderloin, the Castro to SoMa, San Francisco history and drag \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">herstory\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> follow the same path, and often it’s those high-heeled footprints in the lead.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the past decade, drag has become a centerpiece of American pop culture.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Start Ru Paul’s Drag Race theme music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Maybe you’ve seen RuPaul’s Drag Race on MTV. The show and its host have won armfuls of Emmy awards. And RuPaul is widely regarded as the most famous drag queen in the world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>RuPaul’s Drag Race clip: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The time has come for you to lip sync for your LIFE!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Then there’s the drag brunches, drag bingo — and more recently, the Drag Story Hour — that have become ubiquitous in many cities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But growing attention has also led to growing disdain.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News clip: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It has everything to do with this being inappropriate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Whether it’s love or hate on the national stage, drag is a hot topic of conversation. And you really can’t understand how we got to this point nationally without heading to San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Drag in San Francisco is as crucial to the identity of this city as the cable car. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We thought it was high-heel time to take a closer look at drag culture in San Francisco. Today, we’re taking a crash course through decades of Drag Herstory to better understand its larger impact on San Francisco and the country.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Straight people have wigs in this town.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia-Allen Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A note: There is some potentially offensive language in this episode.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Stick around for Bay Curious.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Sponsor Message]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> On any given night in San Francisco you can step into any number of bars in the city and find a drag queen at the center of the action. Like Betty Fresas at Midnight Sun on Thursday nights. She cracks jokes, lip-syncs, celebrates birthdays with shots … and light humiliation. It’s a blast! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But in San Francisco, our queens do so much more than entertaining bar patrons. They serve their communities through fundraising, political activism and even by holding public office.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED’s Christopher Beale spoke with three of San Francisco’s drag icons, starting with Peaches Christ.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What is a drag queen? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A drag queen is someone who likes to use fabulous costumes and exaggerated performance to entertain people. And a drag queen, traditionally, has meant a cis man who dons women’s clothes for entertainment purposes, usually pretty fabulous and flamboyant. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There are examples of what we might call drag today dating back centuries. The first time it was actually \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">called, that\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is believed to have happened around 1870. In the time since drag queens have evolved from underground entertainment to queer community leaders to international megastars. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re kind of queer preachers in a way. We create fellowship, we create community, we make people laugh, we make people feel good about themselves, and when the shit hits the fan and stuff needs to be done, you often see it’s drag queens who are community organizers and the ones mobilizing to take care of a need. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In San Francisco, drag dates back to at least the 1930s, but this \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">isn’t\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> a comprehensive history. The scene is too vibrant, and it could take hours — and many, many costume changes — so what I want to do is hit on a few key moments when drag culture left big impacts on San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Early drag in San Francisco, it was an art form that actually wasn’t seen as that queer because they sort of presented it in a way that was safe for straight audiences. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Remember the opening scene of the Robin Williams movie \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Birdcage\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">? Think of a straight nightclub featuring female illusion.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Peaches Christ: \u003c/b>In San Francisco, the longest-running nightclub that featured drag was called Finocchio’s over in North Beach.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And it was around for decades \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> From the mid-30s to the late 90s, these clubs in North Beach would feature drag queens lip-syncing pop songs and making jokes for largely straight audiences. This was light-hearted fun. None of the heavy stuff, and definitely no politics. But that was about to shift.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And when that shift happened is when San Francisco really became different, and sort of special and unlike other drag communities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This drag queen named Jose Sarria started making noise about gay rights from the stage at another North Beach hotspot called, The Black Cat Club, encouraging people to stop living double lives.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sarria would grow his influence and go on to become the first openly gay candidate for public office in the United States in 1961, when he ran for a board of supervisor’s seat. He didn’t win, but he did reveal the power of the gay voting bloc in San Francisco and helped forge a path for Harvey Milk to be elected almost 20 years later. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jose Sarria didn’t take the electoral loss lying down, he continued his community work in drag and went on to inspire the creation of the Imperial Court system, an international network of charities still in operation today.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A few years later, in 1966, drag performers were part of a pivotal moment in San Francisco and LGBTQ history. The night the Tenderloin became a tinder box of activity.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Compton’s Cafeteria was a late-night dining spot. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A clean, safe, well-lit 24-hour diner in the Tenderloin. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Trans folks, drag performers, sex workers, the community could go there, this was a known place for people to gather.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “Female impersonation” was still a crime in the 60s and the police regularly harassed people outside the gender binary. Even in the relative safety of the Tenderloin, which was then seen as a gay neighborhood, queer people were never truly safe. And on one hot August night, workers at the cafeteria called the police to deal with what they deemed rambunctious diners. Police records from the time don’t exist anymore, but a police officer is said to have grabbed a trans woman to arrest her.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And the community fought back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She responded by throwing a cup of coffee in his face. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It broke out into a rebellion that took to the streets. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sugar shakers were thrown through the restaurant windows and drag queens were seen beating police with heavy purses. A newsstand on the corner was set on fire.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Compton’s Cafeteria riot didn’t lead to the changes that Stonewall would a few years later, but it stands as the first known example of collective militant queer resistance to police harassment in U.S. history. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is worth noting that these trailblazers existed and that they were real heroes and really brave and they were trans women and drag performers who were fighting police on the streets of the Tenderloin.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Start 1960s era music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Drag expression was undergoing a huge change during this era as well. In the late 1960s, The Cockettes burst onto the scene. They were as counter-culture as you could get and were some of the first to break the traditional “cis man dressed as a woman” mold for drag.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Peaches Christ: \u003c/b>I guess you could say they were hippies; they would put glitter in their beards, and they lived together like a commune.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They were an inclusive drag troupe that included straight people, cis women, men, trans women… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Cockettes became notorious for these wild midnight movies at the Palace Theater in North Beach, where drag performers would sing and dance in the aisles during films from greats like John Waters.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They were fueled by glitter and drugs and lots and lots of talent.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[start “Mighty Real” by Sylvester]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: Divine — the controversial and influential drag queen from some of those John Waters movies — has performed with the Cockettes, and at one point, San Francisco recording artist and LGBTQ pioneer Sylvester was a Cockette.\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[End music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Cockettes became so popular, so fast, that the group began to splinter into cliques and eventually fell apart, though some members still perform today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Cockettes over the top, irreverent, no-holds-barred style of drag would help inspire generations of queens to push the envelope.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Somber music starts]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sister Roma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Around 1982, HIV AIDS started to ravage the community. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That is philanthropist, drag queen and member of the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, Sister Roma.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sister Roma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was scary. Nobody knew what it was. All people knew is that gay men, mostly, were getting sick and dying. I remember checking my tongue for white spots and feeling my lymph nodes. It was like AIDS hysteria. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Americans began seeing TV reports like this one demonizing the LGBTQ community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Archival Tape: …\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The lifestyle of some male homosexuals has triggered an epidemic and a rare form of cancer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>In 1987, Roma was looking for a way to help when she discovered and quickly joined this fairly new ragtag order of drag queen nuns called the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’d been founded on Easter Sunday in 1979. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Two of those early sisters were medical professionals, and as soon as HIV and AIDS was discovered to be sexually transmitted, the Sisters sprang into action. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sister Roma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We went out almost every night, went through all the bars, getting condoms into hands, getting condoms into people’s minds, into their forefront. Because we wanted to protect people and to save lives.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They created the first safer sex pamphlet known to feature sex-positive language, practical advice, and most importantly, humor. When they weren’t doing safer sex outreach in the clubs, the Sisters were…if you’ll pardon the pun…raising hell in the streets.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sister Roma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Raising picket signs and bullhorns just to get people to even acknowledge that we were dying, that we needed help. Because there was a real consensus among some people that HIV AIDS wasn’t an issue because it was killing all the right people. It was intravenous drug users, prostitutes, and faggots. Who cares, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There was a time when about a third of San Francisco’s 60,000+ gay men were dying of AIDS, and the Sisters became beacons of hope for the community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As AIDS became less prevalent, the Sisters ranks continued to fill with people who wanted to give back, and the Sisters have continued to grow in influence and visibility.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sister Roma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Today we’re talking about a worldwide organization with probably a thousand members.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Easter in the Park with the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence is an annual tradition that attracts thousands from all over to Dolores Park. It’s a big, boisterous celebration that’s become quintessentially San Franciscan.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music transition]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the mid-90s, after the horror of AIDS began to wane, the LGBTQ+ community in San Francisco galvanized and began to go out like never before. Bars, clubs, and parties were packed as the community collectively blew off steam. In 1996, a drag queen named Heklina started a legendary SoMa party that put the spotlight on San Francisco’s unique blend of drag.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heklina performance clip: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many stars have been born on this stage. This very very special stage. I would kiss this stage right now if it wasn’t covered with blood and shit.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Heklina in many ways was the truest embodiment of Punk rock to drag, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Heklina’s show was called Tranny Shack.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She created it. And proceeded to produce a different show every week at midnight, on a Tuesday, with packed houses for 13 years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heklina performance clip: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have wigs older than you are.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Back when the show was launched, Heklina chose the word “tranny” with an eye toward inclusivity. It was a slur, yes, but like a lot of slurs, it came to be reclaimed/adopted by the group it aimed to harm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> An irreverent and endearing way to refer to people who fell outside of the gender norm. Tranny back then referred to drag queens. Trans people. Transvestites, cross-dressers. And it referred to every little nuance in between because between all those things, there’s a lot of gray area, and between those things, there’s overlap. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And what Tranny Shack was, was a place where all these people could go, and did go, and be accepted and party and to have fun and it was wild. It was artistic. It was crazy. It was outrageous. It was drug and alcohol-fueled, and it was pure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Over the next two decades, Peaches saw Heklina become a community leader, always helping to raise money for causes big and small, which was sort of the opposite of her on-stage persona.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She presented herself in many ways as an unapologetically greedy bitch. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But that was just a persona, Heklina loved to help people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She was uncomfortable getting the credit for it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When Heklina suddenly passed away in 2023, the city’s queer community came out by the thousands as if to honor a fallen hero.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clip from Heklina’s funeral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the event is simply, Heklina a memories.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She would have hated this. Yes, yes, she would.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The reason thousands of people showed up for her memorial… it wasn’t just because she was a funny entertainer. Yes, that’s true. But people showed up in San Francisco because she had created community for them. She was a secret nice person.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music starts]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Per Sia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Drag is not just about entertainment. Drag is also community work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Next, I want to introduce you to a not-so-secret nice person. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Per Sia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Persia or Persia. Either one works. Trust me. I’ve been called way worse.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A few years back Persia was performing in drag at night, but during the day…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Per Sia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I was working at a children’s afterschool arts program here in San Francisco, so I was leading a double life. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She was approached by a group planning to organize Drag Story Hour…where a drag queen reads a book to kids. The idea is representation, for children to have glamorous, positive, and queer role models and to feel free to play with their own gender expression. This was a new concept, but it hit Per Sia in the heartstrings. So, in December 2015… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Per Sia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Drag Story Hour started here in San Francisco. And I was the first performer to be part of that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This was sort of a meeting of two worlds for Persia.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Per Sia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I was really nervous because up until that point, I kept everything separate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But she got up in front of a room of kids, and she read to them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Per Sia reading to kids: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, my name is Per Sia. And I’m a drag queen. Welcome to Drag Story Hour.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Per Sia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I just remember just being so, so nervous. I had students of mine with their families come in. And at that moment, everything really hit. I was merging my lives together, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale in scene:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Do you remember what book you read? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Per Sia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I read something unicorn. And then. A bear book. I don’t know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale in scene:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Unicorns and bears. That’s the takeaway. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Per Sia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ha ha ha. Gay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Per Sia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Afterwards, there was this feeling of calmness. And I had never experienced so much joy. And I’m not going to cry, but it was feeling like all my identities are in one place. And that’s how it felt when I left. And I was just like, oh, like. It’s like, damn I did that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Little kids have the vocabulary to really identify what’s really going on inside, and that is so special to me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And to know that now there’s 20-something chapters around the world, and that I was the first one, and that it started here in San Francisco. I’m just over the moon to just think that I am part of that history. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Drag Story Hour has received quite a bit of press attention, and conservative groups have targeted them, even showing up at places where queens are reading to children.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale in scene:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Does that make you afraid when you go to these libraries or schools? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Per Sia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. But I still push forward. Because I love what I do and if I don’t do that, then what am I going to do? I am already depressed, and anxiety is off the roof. Like, and if I don’t do what I like, then. I’m just going to go back in that hole, you know.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music starts]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Peaches Christ says the hate drag performers have received is simply a response to progress.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We as a community, have existed for many years behind closed doors, performing at night in nightclubs for queer people. We’ve progressed to the point where these families and these people that are so fear-based don’t like seeing us on their televisions. They don’t like seeing us on their kids’ computers or on their social media. They don’t want us in their libraries. They don’t want us in their schools. They don’t want us at their symphony halls. They don’t want us at their baseball stadiums.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sister Roma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s important to realize that this is just the tip of the iceberg. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sister Roma again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sister Roma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You can’t take away pride flags and you can’t say don’t say gay. Like we have always been here. Trans people, queer people have always, always been here. And we will always. Always be here. They don’t know who they’re picking a fight with. We have overcome much bigger battles we fought a plague. We showed the world how to, who react with compassion in the face of pandemic that was killing our community, we rose up and showed the world how to respond. We got this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> To people like Per Sia, Sister Roma, and Peaches Christ, San Francisco history and drag HERstory are inseparably intertwined. It’s hard to imagine The City without drag queens.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’d be like taking the city and turning it black and white. San Francisco is full of color and fabulousness and by removing drag from it and all of its variations, I think you’d really mute what makes it special. This city is run by drag. It’s a drag oasis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Almost 100 years have gone by since those first queens graced the stage in San Francisco. The city – and the world! – have been shaped by those that came after.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sister Roma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have a transgender cultural district, a leather cultural district, the Castro cultural district. We have a drag laureate, Darcy Drollinger. So many great queer trans drag leaders and so much to be proud of here in San Francisco. And this does remain a beacon of hope to our queer community worldwide.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Bay Curious reporter and sound engineer Christopher Beale. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Per Sia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> GAY! \u003c/span>\u003cb>*laugh & fade*\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> At the end of every Bay Curious episode, you may have noticed we always say …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice over:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To us, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">member-supported\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is the operative phrase there. We are so proud that Bay Curious is available for free to everyone, but it does cost money to make.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sixty percent of our budget comes from listeners. Many give $5, $10, $20 a month … and it adds up! If you’ve thought in the past, “Oh gosh, I really should donate” but haven’t gotten around to it (I’ve been there). This is your sign to make good on those thoughts. Don’t delay. Grab your phone and navigate to \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> … within minutes you’ll be done and feeling good about supporting shows like Bay Curious. Thanks!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a fabulous week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Drag as an art form dates back centuries, but as shows like MTV’s RuPaul’s Drag Race have grown a worldwide following, drag has become more visible than ever. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The show’s namesake and host, RuPaul, arguably the most famous drag queen in the world, is now the most decorated television host in Emmy history. Not Johnny Carson, not Barbara Walters … RuPaul.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there is also a heated debate coursing through statehouses and on some media programs about whether or not drag queens are appropriate entertainment for adults and children alike. Florida, Montana, Tennessee and Texas all have laws that, though unenforceable due to a federal court order, would ban drag performances.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In San Francisco, this debate over drag is long settled.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Drag is as crucial to the identity of this city as the cable car,” said Peaches Christ, a San Francisco drag performer, director and provocateur for the last three decades. “Straight people have wigs in this town!” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Drag has been breaking ground and creating a community for San Franciscans for almost a century.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>But how did it get that way?\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Drag has been an active part of the entertainment scene in San Francisco since the 1930s.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Early drag in San Francisco was presented in a way that was safe for straight audiences,” Christ said. “It traditionally has meant a cis man who dons women’s clothes, for entertainment purposes, usually pretty fabulous and flamboyant.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Finocchio’s Club was an institution for 60 years in the North Beach neighborhood and featured “female illusion.” This was light-hearted fun. None of the heavy stuff and definitely no politics. But that was about to shift.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11980250\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11980250\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/Medium-sized-JPEG.jpg\" alt=\"A black and white photo featuring eight drag queens posing on a multi-tiered stage, wearing gowns.\" width=\"600\" height=\"489\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/Medium-sized-JPEG.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/Medium-sized-JPEG-160x130.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Finocchio’s nightclub was known for its “female impersonators” who entertained patrons nightly. This 1958 photo shows the cast of the floor show. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Her Royal Majesty, Empress of San Francisco, José I, The Widow Norton\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At The Black Cat Club, another North Beach hot spot, Jose Sarria was a cocktail waiter turned drag queen who sang operatic arias. During Sarria’s performances, she started to encourage patrons to stop living double lives and to come out of the closet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 1961, Sarria ran for a San Francisco Board of Supervisors seat. He lost, but his campaign was an early demonstration of the power of the gay voting bloc that would eventually elect Harvey Milk.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11980181\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1493px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11980181\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-1322409068.jpg\" alt=\"A person wearing a white full body leotard and a pink tutu and white angel wings and a crown. They are gesturing toward the camera, as if to take flight.\" width=\"1493\" height=\"991\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-1322409068.jpg 1493w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-1322409068-800x531.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-1322409068-1020x677.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-1322409068-160x106.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1493px) 100vw, 1493px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Jose Sarria, a.k.a. The Widow Norton, dances as the Sugar Plum Fairy during the Dance-Along Nutcracker in 2006. \u003ccite>(LEA SUZUKI/The San Francisco Chronicle via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After the political defeat, Sarria would proclaim himself “Her Royal Majesty, Empress of San Francisco, José I, The Widow Norton,” and create the Imperial Court. That network of LGBTQ charities is still in operation today and holds a visible presence in San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Compton’s Cafeteria Riot\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the Tenderloin, at Taylor and Turk Streets, a 24-hour diner called Compton’s Cafeteria was a generally safe spot for the neighborhood’s queer, gender non-conforming, drag, trans and sex-worker population.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Female impersonation” was illegal in the sixties, and police regularly harassed people who appeared to be in violation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In August 1966, diner staff called the police one night and reported that the patrons had become rowdy. Though police records from the time no longer exist, an officer reportedly grabbed a trans woman to arrest her and she responded by throwing a cup of coffee in his face.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“It broke out into a rebellion that took to the streets,” Christ said, “and it’s worth noting that these trailblazers existed. They were trans women and drag performers who were fighting police on the streets of the Tenderloin.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Compton’s Cafeteria Riot didn’t result in the widespread change that Stonewall would a few years later but it is the first known act of widespread resistance to police harassment in U.S. history.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The Cockettes\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the sixties a counter-culture drag troupe called the Cockettes was breaking down walls in drag expression.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“They were hippies. They would put glitter in their beards, and they lived together like a commune,” Christ said. “They were an inclusive drag troupe that included straight people, cis women, men, trans women.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11980176\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11980176\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-603956872.jpg\" alt=\"Four performers in exaggereateid costumes on stage.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1324\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-603956872.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-603956872-800x552.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-603956872-1020x703.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-603956872-160x110.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-603956872-1536x1059.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Cockettes perform Tinsel Tarts in a Hot Coma in New York in July 1971. \u003ccite>(Jack Mitchell/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Cockettes are remembered for their outlandish parties at the Palace Theatre in North Beach and for their gender-bending expression of drag that pushed the boundaries beyond the usual ‘cis man in a dress’ drag formula.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“The Cockettes were fueled by glitter and drugs and lots and lots of talent,” added Christ. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s worth noting that LGBTQ recording artist and San Francisco disco legend Sylvester, best known for the song \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3vtOEiO6TY\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You Make Me Feel (Mighty Real)\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, was once a Cockette. The larger group would fizzle out almost as quickly as they began, but some members still perform today.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The Ministry of the Sisters\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">During the 80s and early 90s, AIDS wreaked havoc on the city’s gay population. A ragtag group of charitable drag queen nuns sprang into action to try to save lives and became de facto spiritual leaders in the wake of the loss, fear and uncertainty.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“It was scary. Nobody knew what it was. All people knew was that gay men were getting sick and dying,” Sister Roma said. She joined the Sisters in 1987 in the midst of what she called AIDS hysteria. “I remember checking my tongue for white spots and feeling my lymph nodes.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Roma and the Sisters created and distributed a safer-sex pamphlet, Play Fair!, believed to be the first to use sex-positive language and humor, to the LGBTQ community, along with boatloads of condoms.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“We went out almost every night, through all the bars, getting condoms into hands, getting condoms into people’s minds,” Roma said, “Because we wanted to protect people and to save lives.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When they weren’t educating the community, the Sisters fought for the visibility of the AIDS crisis at a time when the federal government wouldn’t acknowledge the problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“There was a real consensus among some people that HIV/AIDS wasn’t an issue because it was killing all the right people,” Roma said. “It was intravenous drug users, prostitutes and faggots. Who cares, right?”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As medications began to move HIV from a death sentence to a manageable disease, the Sisters’ ranks continued to swell with community activists and philanthropists simply delighted to play with their gender expression in interesting ways.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11980178\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11980178\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/118798286_3373916526051177_8781469385850932712_n.jpg\" alt='Seven \"sisters\" in their drag nun attire stand in front of Dolores Park in San Francisco. Near them is a sign that says \"wear a mask.\" They are all wearing masks as well.' width=\"1920\" height=\"1281\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/118798286_3373916526051177_8781469385850932712_n.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/118798286_3373916526051177_8781469385850932712_n-800x534.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/118798286_3373916526051177_8781469385850932712_n-1020x681.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/118798286_3373916526051177_8781469385850932712_n-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/118798286_3373916526051177_8781469385850932712_n-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence showed up to spread best practices during the COVID-19 pandemic, just as they did at the start of the AIDS crisis. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Sister Roma)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Sisters are now a worldwide organization but are just as active in San Francisco as ever. You can find the Sisters at community events, pride festivals, marches and they host the massive Easter in the Park featuring the Hunky Jesus and Foxy Mary contests. That event attracts tens of thousands of all ages and orientations to Dolores Park each Easter and has for 45 years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The Early Aughts\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the late nineties and early 2000s, the drag scene in San Francisco was getting edgier. A gritty show called “Trannyshack” was packing The Stud, a tiny bar in SoMa, on Tuesday nights for a wild party that completely broke the rules of drag.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Trannyshack was wild,” said Christ, who got her start in San Francisco drag at Trannyshack, “it was artistic, it was crazy, it was outrageous, it was drug and alcohol-fueled, and it was pure.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“[The word ‘tranny’ was] an irreverent and endearing way to refer to people who fell outside of the gender norm. It referred to drag queens, trans people, transvestites, cross-dressers, and it referred to every little nuance in between,” Christ said. “Trannyshack, a place where all these people could go and be accepted and party and to have fun.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Over the next two decades the host of Trannyshack, drag queen Heklina, became a beloved figure in San Francisco’s LGBTQ community despite her abrasive on-stage persona.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11980189\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11980189\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-1157521655.jpg\" alt=\"A drag queen wears a orange-peach sequined gown. They are standing in front of a red curtain, speaking into a microphone. They have a big blonde wig, and lots of jewelry. \" width=\"1920\" height=\"1278\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-1157521655.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-1157521655-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-1157521655-1020x679.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-1157521655-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-1157521655-1536x1022.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Heklina performs onstage at the Roast Battle at the 2019 Clusterfest. Her on-stage persona had edge, but behind the scenes, Heklina was a kind person interested in charitable work. \u003ccite>(Jeff Kravitz/FilmMagic for Clusterfest)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Heklina presented herself in many ways as an unapologetically greedy bitch,” joked Christ, adding that though Heklina was always helping the community behind the scenes, “she was uncomfortable getting the credit for it. She was a secret nice person.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When Heklina passed away suddenly in April of 2023 the San Francisco LGBTQ community organized a large memorial service that shut down the Castro for hours. The community came out by the thousands to mourn.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“The reason thousands of people showed up for her memorial wasn’t just because she was a funny entertainer,” Christ said, though she acknowledged that Heklina was hilarious, “People showed up in San Francisco because she had created community for them.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Drag Story Hour\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2015, the first drag performer for Drag Story Hour was Per Sia, who said she was leading a double life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“I was working at a children’s afterschool arts program during the day and performing in drag at night,” she said. When she was contacted to host the first Drag Story Hour, she said yes but had reservations. ” Up until that point, I kept everything separate.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The idea behind Drag Story Hour is a representation for children to have glamorous, positive and queer role models and to feel free to play with their own gender expression. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After the first Drag Story Hour, Per Sia knew she’d done the right thing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“There was this feeling of calmness,” she said, “all of my identities were in one place.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11980192\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 960px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11980192\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/image2.jpeg\" alt=\"A drag queen stands, gesturing dramatically while reading from a book. A handful of children sit by her feet.\" width=\"960\" height=\"720\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/image2.jpeg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/image2-800x600.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/image2-160x120.jpeg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 960px) 100vw, 960px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Per Sia began reading to children at the first ever Drag Queen Story Hour in San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Per Sia)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some conservative groups have criticized Drag Story Hour, but that doesn’t slow the organization or Per Sia down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“I still push forward because I love what I do,” Per Sia said, admitting that the threats from conservative groups have been scary. But she said it’s all worth it because she is setting an example for the children.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Little kids have the vocabulary to really identify what’s really going on inside, and that is so special to me,” Per Sia said with pride, “and it’s like, ‘I did that!’”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“There are now 20-something chapters of Drag Story Hour around the world,” Per Sia said, beaming, “I’m just over the moon to think that I am a part of that history.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Defending Drag\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As drag becomes more visible and harder to ignore, mainstream society is beginning to wrestle with the issue. By contrast, the San Francisco we know has been forged by drag.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“We have a transgender cultural district, a leather cultural district, the Castro cultural district. We have a drag laureate, ” proclaimed Sister Roma, “San Francisco does remain the beacon of hope to our queer community worldwide.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“To remove drag would be like taking the city and turning it black and white,” Peaches Christ said. “San Francisco is full of color and fabulousness and by removing drag from it and all of its variations, I think you’d really mute what makes it special. This city is run by drag.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">From North Beach to the Tenderloin, the Castro to SoMa, San Francisco history and drag \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">herstory\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> follow the same path, and often it’s those high-heeled footprints in the lead.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the past decade, drag has become a centerpiece of American pop culture.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Start Ru Paul’s Drag Race theme music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Maybe you’ve seen RuPaul’s Drag Race on MTV. The show and its host have won armfuls of Emmy awards. And RuPaul is widely regarded as the most famous drag queen in the world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>RuPaul’s Drag Race clip: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The time has come for you to lip sync for your LIFE!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Then there’s the drag brunches, drag bingo — and more recently, the Drag Story Hour — that have become ubiquitous in many cities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But growing attention has also led to growing disdain.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News clip: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It has everything to do with this being inappropriate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Whether it’s love or hate on the national stage, drag is a hot topic of conversation. And you really can’t understand how we got to this point nationally without heading to San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Drag in San Francisco is as crucial to the identity of this city as the cable car. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We thought it was high-heel time to take a closer look at drag culture in San Francisco. Today, we’re taking a crash course through decades of Drag Herstory to better understand its larger impact on San Francisco and the country.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Straight people have wigs in this town.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia-Allen Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A note: There is some potentially offensive language in this episode.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Stick around for Bay Curious.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Sponsor Message]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> On any given night in San Francisco you can step into any number of bars in the city and find a drag queen at the center of the action. Like Betty Fresas at Midnight Sun on Thursday nights. She cracks jokes, lip-syncs, celebrates birthdays with shots … and light humiliation. It’s a blast! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But in San Francisco, our queens do so much more than entertaining bar patrons. They serve their communities through fundraising, political activism and even by holding public office.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED’s Christopher Beale spoke with three of San Francisco’s drag icons, starting with Peaches Christ.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What is a drag queen? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A drag queen is someone who likes to use fabulous costumes and exaggerated performance to entertain people. And a drag queen, traditionally, has meant a cis man who dons women’s clothes for entertainment purposes, usually pretty fabulous and flamboyant. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There are examples of what we might call drag today dating back centuries. The first time it was actually \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">called, that\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is believed to have happened around 1870. In the time since drag queens have evolved from underground entertainment to queer community leaders to international megastars. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re kind of queer preachers in a way. We create fellowship, we create community, we make people laugh, we make people feel good about themselves, and when the shit hits the fan and stuff needs to be done, you often see it’s drag queens who are community organizers and the ones mobilizing to take care of a need. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In San Francisco, drag dates back to at least the 1930s, but this \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">isn’t\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> a comprehensive history. The scene is too vibrant, and it could take hours — and many, many costume changes — so what I want to do is hit on a few key moments when drag culture left big impacts on San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Early drag in San Francisco, it was an art form that actually wasn’t seen as that queer because they sort of presented it in a way that was safe for straight audiences. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Remember the opening scene of the Robin Williams movie \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Birdcage\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">? Think of a straight nightclub featuring female illusion.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Peaches Christ: \u003c/b>In San Francisco, the longest-running nightclub that featured drag was called Finocchio’s over in North Beach.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And it was around for decades \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> From the mid-30s to the late 90s, these clubs in North Beach would feature drag queens lip-syncing pop songs and making jokes for largely straight audiences. This was light-hearted fun. None of the heavy stuff, and definitely no politics. But that was about to shift.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And when that shift happened is when San Francisco really became different, and sort of special and unlike other drag communities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This drag queen named Jose Sarria started making noise about gay rights from the stage at another North Beach hotspot called, The Black Cat Club, encouraging people to stop living double lives.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sarria would grow his influence and go on to become the first openly gay candidate for public office in the United States in 1961, when he ran for a board of supervisor’s seat. He didn’t win, but he did reveal the power of the gay voting bloc in San Francisco and helped forge a path for Harvey Milk to be elected almost 20 years later. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jose Sarria didn’t take the electoral loss lying down, he continued his community work in drag and went on to inspire the creation of the Imperial Court system, an international network of charities still in operation today.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A few years later, in 1966, drag performers were part of a pivotal moment in San Francisco and LGBTQ history. The night the Tenderloin became a tinder box of activity.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Compton’s Cafeteria was a late-night dining spot. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A clean, safe, well-lit 24-hour diner in the Tenderloin. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Trans folks, drag performers, sex workers, the community could go there, this was a known place for people to gather.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “Female impersonation” was still a crime in the 60s and the police regularly harassed people outside the gender binary. Even in the relative safety of the Tenderloin, which was then seen as a gay neighborhood, queer people were never truly safe. And on one hot August night, workers at the cafeteria called the police to deal with what they deemed rambunctious diners. Police records from the time don’t exist anymore, but a police officer is said to have grabbed a trans woman to arrest her.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And the community fought back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She responded by throwing a cup of coffee in his face. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It broke out into a rebellion that took to the streets. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sugar shakers were thrown through the restaurant windows and drag queens were seen beating police with heavy purses. A newsstand on the corner was set on fire.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Compton’s Cafeteria riot didn’t lead to the changes that Stonewall would a few years later, but it stands as the first known example of collective militant queer resistance to police harassment in U.S. history. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is worth noting that these trailblazers existed and that they were real heroes and really brave and they were trans women and drag performers who were fighting police on the streets of the Tenderloin.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Start 1960s era music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Drag expression was undergoing a huge change during this era as well. In the late 1960s, The Cockettes burst onto the scene. They were as counter-culture as you could get and were some of the first to break the traditional “cis man dressed as a woman” mold for drag.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Peaches Christ: \u003c/b>I guess you could say they were hippies; they would put glitter in their beards, and they lived together like a commune.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They were an inclusive drag troupe that included straight people, cis women, men, trans women… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Cockettes became notorious for these wild midnight movies at the Palace Theater in North Beach, where drag performers would sing and dance in the aisles during films from greats like John Waters.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They were fueled by glitter and drugs and lots and lots of talent.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[start “Mighty Real” by Sylvester]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: Divine — the controversial and influential drag queen from some of those John Waters movies — has performed with the Cockettes, and at one point, San Francisco recording artist and LGBTQ pioneer Sylvester was a Cockette.\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[End music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Cockettes became so popular, so fast, that the group began to splinter into cliques and eventually fell apart, though some members still perform today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Cockettes over the top, irreverent, no-holds-barred style of drag would help inspire generations of queens to push the envelope.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Somber music starts]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sister Roma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Around 1982, HIV AIDS started to ravage the community. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That is philanthropist, drag queen and member of the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, Sister Roma.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sister Roma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was scary. Nobody knew what it was. All people knew is that gay men, mostly, were getting sick and dying. I remember checking my tongue for white spots and feeling my lymph nodes. It was like AIDS hysteria. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Americans began seeing TV reports like this one demonizing the LGBTQ community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Archival Tape: …\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The lifestyle of some male homosexuals has triggered an epidemic and a rare form of cancer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>In 1987, Roma was looking for a way to help when she discovered and quickly joined this fairly new ragtag order of drag queen nuns called the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’d been founded on Easter Sunday in 1979. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Two of those early sisters were medical professionals, and as soon as HIV and AIDS was discovered to be sexually transmitted, the Sisters sprang into action. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sister Roma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We went out almost every night, went through all the bars, getting condoms into hands, getting condoms into people’s minds, into their forefront. Because we wanted to protect people and to save lives.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They created the first safer sex pamphlet known to feature sex-positive language, practical advice, and most importantly, humor. When they weren’t doing safer sex outreach in the clubs, the Sisters were…if you’ll pardon the pun…raising hell in the streets.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sister Roma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Raising picket signs and bullhorns just to get people to even acknowledge that we were dying, that we needed help. Because there was a real consensus among some people that HIV AIDS wasn’t an issue because it was killing all the right people. It was intravenous drug users, prostitutes, and faggots. Who cares, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There was a time when about a third of San Francisco’s 60,000+ gay men were dying of AIDS, and the Sisters became beacons of hope for the community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As AIDS became less prevalent, the Sisters ranks continued to fill with people who wanted to give back, and the Sisters have continued to grow in influence and visibility.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sister Roma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Today we’re talking about a worldwide organization with probably a thousand members.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Easter in the Park with the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence is an annual tradition that attracts thousands from all over to Dolores Park. It’s a big, boisterous celebration that’s become quintessentially San Franciscan.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music transition]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the mid-90s, after the horror of AIDS began to wane, the LGBTQ+ community in San Francisco galvanized and began to go out like never before. Bars, clubs, and parties were packed as the community collectively blew off steam. In 1996, a drag queen named Heklina started a legendary SoMa party that put the spotlight on San Francisco’s unique blend of drag.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heklina performance clip: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many stars have been born on this stage. This very very special stage. I would kiss this stage right now if it wasn’t covered with blood and shit.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Heklina in many ways was the truest embodiment of Punk rock to drag, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Heklina’s show was called Tranny Shack.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She created it. And proceeded to produce a different show every week at midnight, on a Tuesday, with packed houses for 13 years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Heklina performance clip: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have wigs older than you are.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Back when the show was launched, Heklina chose the word “tranny” with an eye toward inclusivity. It was a slur, yes, but like a lot of slurs, it came to be reclaimed/adopted by the group it aimed to harm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> An irreverent and endearing way to refer to people who fell outside of the gender norm. Tranny back then referred to drag queens. Trans people. Transvestites, cross-dressers. And it referred to every little nuance in between because between all those things, there’s a lot of gray area, and between those things, there’s overlap. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And what Tranny Shack was, was a place where all these people could go, and did go, and be accepted and party and to have fun and it was wild. It was artistic. It was crazy. It was outrageous. It was drug and alcohol-fueled, and it was pure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Over the next two decades, Peaches saw Heklina become a community leader, always helping to raise money for causes big and small, which was sort of the opposite of her on-stage persona.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She presented herself in many ways as an unapologetically greedy bitch. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But that was just a persona, Heklina loved to help people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She was uncomfortable getting the credit for it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When Heklina suddenly passed away in 2023, the city’s queer community came out by the thousands as if to honor a fallen hero.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clip from Heklina’s funeral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the event is simply, Heklina a memories.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She would have hated this. Yes, yes, she would.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The reason thousands of people showed up for her memorial… it wasn’t just because she was a funny entertainer. Yes, that’s true. But people showed up in San Francisco because she had created community for them. She was a secret nice person.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music starts]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Per Sia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Drag is not just about entertainment. Drag is also community work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Next, I want to introduce you to a not-so-secret nice person. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Per Sia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Persia or Persia. Either one works. Trust me. I’ve been called way worse.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A few years back Persia was performing in drag at night, but during the day…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Per Sia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I was working at a children’s afterschool arts program here in San Francisco, so I was leading a double life. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She was approached by a group planning to organize Drag Story Hour…where a drag queen reads a book to kids. The idea is representation, for children to have glamorous, positive, and queer role models and to feel free to play with their own gender expression. This was a new concept, but it hit Per Sia in the heartstrings. So, in December 2015… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Per Sia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Drag Story Hour started here in San Francisco. And I was the first performer to be part of that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This was sort of a meeting of two worlds for Persia.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Per Sia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I was really nervous because up until that point, I kept everything separate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But she got up in front of a room of kids, and she read to them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Per Sia reading to kids: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, my name is Per Sia. And I’m a drag queen. Welcome to Drag Story Hour.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Per Sia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I just remember just being so, so nervous. I had students of mine with their families come in. And at that moment, everything really hit. I was merging my lives together, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale in scene:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Do you remember what book you read? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Per Sia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I read something unicorn. And then. A bear book. I don’t know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale in scene:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Unicorns and bears. That’s the takeaway. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Per Sia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ha ha ha. Gay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Per Sia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Afterwards, there was this feeling of calmness. And I had never experienced so much joy. And I’m not going to cry, but it was feeling like all my identities are in one place. And that’s how it felt when I left. And I was just like, oh, like. It’s like, damn I did that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Little kids have the vocabulary to really identify what’s really going on inside, and that is so special to me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And to know that now there’s 20-something chapters around the world, and that I was the first one, and that it started here in San Francisco. I’m just over the moon to just think that I am part of that history. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Drag Story Hour has received quite a bit of press attention, and conservative groups have targeted them, even showing up at places where queens are reading to children.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale in scene:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Does that make you afraid when you go to these libraries or schools? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Per Sia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. But I still push forward. Because I love what I do and if I don’t do that, then what am I going to do? I am already depressed, and anxiety is off the roof. Like, and if I don’t do what I like, then. I’m just going to go back in that hole, you know.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music starts]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Peaches Christ says the hate drag performers have received is simply a response to progress.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We as a community, have existed for many years behind closed doors, performing at night in nightclubs for queer people. We’ve progressed to the point where these families and these people that are so fear-based don’t like seeing us on their televisions. They don’t like seeing us on their kids’ computers or on their social media. They don’t want us in their libraries. They don’t want us in their schools. They don’t want us at their symphony halls. They don’t want us at their baseball stadiums.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sister Roma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s important to realize that this is just the tip of the iceberg. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sister Roma again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sister Roma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You can’t take away pride flags and you can’t say don’t say gay. Like we have always been here. Trans people, queer people have always, always been here. And we will always. Always be here. They don’t know who they’re picking a fight with. We have overcome much bigger battles we fought a plague. We showed the world how to, who react with compassion in the face of pandemic that was killing our community, we rose up and showed the world how to respond. We got this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> To people like Per Sia, Sister Roma, and Peaches Christ, San Francisco history and drag HERstory are inseparably intertwined. It’s hard to imagine The City without drag queens.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peaches Christ:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’d be like taking the city and turning it black and white. San Francisco is full of color and fabulousness and by removing drag from it and all of its variations, I think you’d really mute what makes it special. This city is run by drag. It’s a drag oasis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Almost 100 years have gone by since those first queens graced the stage in San Francisco. The city – and the world! – have been shaped by those that came after.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sister Roma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have a transgender cultural district, a leather cultural district, the Castro cultural district. We have a drag laureate, Darcy Drollinger. So many great queer trans drag leaders and so much to be proud of here in San Francisco. And this does remain a beacon of hope to our queer community worldwide.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Bay Curious reporter and sound engineer Christopher Beale. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Per Sia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> GAY! \u003c/span>\u003cb>*laugh & fade*\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> At the end of every Bay Curious episode, you may have noticed we always say …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice over:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To us, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">member-supported\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is the operative phrase there. We are so proud that Bay Curious is available for free to everyone, but it does cost money to make.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sixty percent of our budget comes from listeners. Many give $5, $10, $20 a month … and it adds up! If you’ve thought in the past, “Oh gosh, I really should donate” but haven’t gotten around to it (I’ve been there). This is your sign to make good on those thoughts. Don’t delay. Grab your phone and navigate to \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> … within minutes you’ll be done and feeling good about supporting shows like Bay Curious. Thanks!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a fabulous week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "unraveling-the-mysteries-of-the-universe-inside-slac",
"title": "Unraveling the Mysteries of the Universe Inside SLAC",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Did you know one of the longest buildings \u003cem>on the planet\u003c/em> is in Menlo Park? And drivers speeding along Interstate 280, near Sand Hill Road, pass mere meters above it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Eric Nelson of Petaluma wanted to know more about the nearly 2-mile-long structure. He asked, “What’s that huge, long building on the side of 280 that I drive by all the time but really have no idea what it is?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Turns out the \u003ca href=\"https://www6.slac.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/2022-10/slac_factsheet_btn_08_2022_final.pdf\">SLAC National Accelerator Laboratory\u003c/a> is home to a scientific marvel that pushes particles to travel close to the speed of light. We called up Stanford, which is home to SLAC — SLAC used to stand for the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center, but now it’s just SLAC. Not an acronym — and they said the equivalent of, “Come on over! We give tours!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11978061\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11978061\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/240129-SLAC-21-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"A woman faces a monitor that is displaying information about the linear accelerator. She is pointing at a part of the screen with her finger. You cannot see her face, only the back of her head. \" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/240129-SLAC-21-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/240129-SLAC-21-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/240129-SLAC-21-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/240129-SLAC-21-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/240129-SLAC-21-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Student researcher Rachel Spurlock explains the Linear Accelerator at the SLAC National Accelerator Laboratory, operated by Stanford University for the US Department of Energy, in Menlo Park on Jan. 29, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Not one lab but many\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Let’s start with the fact that SLAC is big. It’s a \u003ca href=\"https://www6.slac.stanford.edu/about/lab-overview\">426-acre campus\u003c/a> near Stanford University is made up of several facilities where scientists are conducting all sorts of cutting-edge research. That long, skinny building Eric noticed is just one of the facilities — the linear accelerator. It’s not the only particle accelerator in the world, but it was \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/quest/17535/homegrown-particle-accelerators\">one of the first.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The building that houses this thing is almost two miles long. Cameras inside record the ultra-bright X-ray light that particles throw off to create freeze-frame movies of molecules, allowing the scientists to see what’s going on in the universe at the subatomic level. This is research that has implications for particle physics, yes, but also \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/futureofyou/443483/physicists-go-small-lets-put-a-particle-accelerator-on-a-chip\">computer chips\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/916677/stanford-develops-chiclet-sized-device-that-purifies-water-using-sunlight\">clean energy\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/28510/researchers-at-slac-study-promising-alternative-to-morphine\">medicine\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/99894/what-happens-when-you-zap-coral-with-the-worlds-most-powerful-x-ray-laser\">ancient weather\u003c/a>, and much, much more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When electrons move fast, they buzz. A LOT.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of people who come visit think that the noise is actually the fluorescents, but it’s the accelerator,” our tour guide, Rachel Spurlock, told us in the visitor alcove of SLAC’s Linear Accelerator. She’s working on her Ph.D. in Chemical Engineering at Stanford. “That is actually the sound of our accelerator operating. Our accelerator moves 120 bunches of electrons per second.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How do they pick up that much speed?\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11975061\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11975061\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-20-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A long room that you cannot see the end of. It is about 20 feet wide. On the left is a walkway for people and small vehicles. On the right side of the image, is the linear accelerator equipment, which looks like a lot of tubes and wires.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-20-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-20-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-20-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-20-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-20-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-20-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The building that houses the Linear Accelerator at the SLAC National Accelerator Laboratory, operated by Stanford University for the US Department of Energy, in Menlo Park on Jan. 29, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Particle accelerators \u003ca href=\"https://www.energy.gov/articles/how-particle-accelerators-work\">use electric fields\u003c/a> to speed up and energize a beam of particles, which are steered and focused by magnetic fields while the beam travels. Electric fields spaced around the accelerator switch from positive to negative at a given frequency, creating radio waves that accelerate particles in bunches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Two long tubes stretch to what seems like infinity to the human eye at SLAC: one large aluminum tube on the bottom and a smaller copper tube on top, where the electrons are. More than 150 microwave generators called \u003ca href=\"https://www6.slac.stanford.edu/media/2015-1216-0484-klystrongallery-tripodjpg\">klystrons\u003c/a> move the electrons along.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The exact same thing that you have in your kitchen at home in your microwave, except about 60 times stronger,” explains Spurlock, adding that you could bake a potato in one of these klystrons in a millisecond.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During WWII, physicists working in Los Alamos, New Mexico, developed the atom bomb. After WWII, Stanford physicists wanted to get a better look inside the atom. So they pitched the idea of a linear accelerator to the Atomic Energy Commission, explained here in a 1964 documentary called “The Worlds Within.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I4GxICAcBs\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the following years, SLAC won three Nobel prizes for its early research, including the discovery of two fundamental particles, proving protons are made of quarks, and showing how DNA directs protein manufacturing in cells.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But of course, science has moved on from these first, basic lines of inquiry, and so has SLAC. The facilities on this campus are constantly being modernized to allow scientists to stay on the cutting edge of research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today, SLAC functions like a high-tech hacker space. Anybody can propose a project, and if receiving the thumbs up from a research committee, do their experiment at one of the facilities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If your proposal is accepted, you can come and use our facilities absolutely for free, as long as you publish your results,” Spurlock said. “If you don’t want to publish your results, it can get very expensive.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That said, private corporations hoping to profit from the results of their research sometimes pitch experiments to SLAC.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11975065\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11975065\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-46-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A very complicated looking instrument about the size of a car with colorful wires and tubes.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-46-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-46-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-46-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-46-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-46-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-46-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The complexity of the research happening at SLAC can be overwhelming to many visitors, as one glance at this Linac Coherent Light Source instrument demonstrates. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>The world’s first hard X-ray free-electron laser\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Beyond the accelerators, SLAC’s campus is full of different lab spaces doing different things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“With X-ray light, we’re able to look at atoms. So we’re looking at microscopic details of what matter is doing,” said Matthias Kling, Director of Science, Research and Development at the Linac Coherent Light Source (\u003ca href=\"https://lcls.slac.stanford.edu/\">LCLS\u003c/a>) lab at SLAC. (There’s a second X-ray laser, too, at SLAC, called the \u003ca href=\"https://www.almanacnews.com/news/2023/09/18/menlo-parks-slac-turns-on-x-ray-that-can-take-images-at-the-attosecond/\">LCLS-II\u003c/a>.)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUeraeIkTmo&t=2s\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You know the MRI machine doctors use to get a 3D picture of your organs and tissues? Now imagine using that X-ray light that particles speeding through a linear accelerator throw off to look at your insides at the molecular level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Scientists are also trying to find ways to make the equipment smaller, cheaper, and capable of operating at room temperature so that one day, the equivalent of an MRI machine could be available to many more people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re striving to stay at that frontier. So that’s why we’re constantly thinking about, OK, ‘What is it that would enable us to answer the next big question?’” Kling said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Kling was done leading his part of the tour, I turned to Nelson, whose eyes were spinning as fast as mine. “I’m just blown away with the people who founded this originally. [I wonder] if they had a vision of where they would be now. If you could put them in a time machine and [ask], ‘Here you are. Did you have any concept of this little tube you built, what impact it would be having on the world?’” Nelson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But wait, there’s more.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>SLAC is home to the world’s largest digital camera\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11975069\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11975069\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-56-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A large white room with a black cylindrical drum-shaped instrument in the middle that is about the size of a car. \" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-56-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-56-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-56-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-56-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-56-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-56-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Legacy Survey of Space and Time, or LSST, camera at the SLAC National Accelerator Laboratory. The camera is the world’s largest digital camera and will be trasnported to the Vera C. Rubin Observatory in the mountains of Chile, where it will be mapping the southern sky. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The world’s largest digital camera has 3.2 gigapixels. That’s considerably larger than your smartphone camera. This thing is massive, the size of a 3-ton car, with a lens bigger than 5 feet in diameter. Also, it can capture a huge swath of sky with every photograph.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It will take images, and within 60 seconds of a shutter closing, it will do a bunch of analysis. It will do comparisons to previous images that it has, and it will detect that there’s things that are different,” SLAC LSST Camera Deputy Project Manager Travis Lange said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In a very large image, there’s going to be thousands and thousands of things,” Lange said. “So every single image, you’re going to get a lot of things that are different from the previous time. There are some things in cosmology that happen very slowly. Most things, actually, right? The universe is a very slow-moving thing, but there are some things that occur very fast. Things like supernovas or asteroids that are coming through our solar system. Those kinds of things, those very transient events, are very hard to detect.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11978064\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11978064\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/240129-SLAC-61-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"Two men having a conversation. One is facing the camera and wearing a blue shirt and glasses. The other is wearing a green shirt and facing away from the camera.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/240129-SLAC-61-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/240129-SLAC-61-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/240129-SLAC-61-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/240129-SLAC-61-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/240129-SLAC-61-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Travis Lange speaks with tour guest Eric Nelson about the Legacy Survey of Space and Time, or LSST, camera at the SLAC National Accelerator Laboratory. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>This camera, which cost $200 million to construct and will be mounted on a mountaintop in \u003ca href=\"https://phys.org/news/2024-01-astronomers-chile-scour-universe-car.html\">northern Chile\u003c/a>, can detect those transient events. Then, scientists can direct astronomers working with bigger, more powerful telescopes to point them at the thing that is happening, “and get a really in-depth image in real time,” Lange said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mind-blowing. But wait, there’s more.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A race for a cleaner, greener, long-lasting battery\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11975074\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11975074\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-86-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A woman stands in a laboratory touching small objects the size of playing cards. She is wearing purple gloves. \" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-86-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-86-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-86-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-86-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-86-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-86-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Scientist Johanna Nelson Weker displays pouch cells in a battery lab. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Can we make a battery out of rust? Iron oxygen battery? Things that are ridiculously cheap that could bring the cost of storing energy down,” asked SLAC-Stanford Battery Center lead scientist Johanna Nelson Weker. She might not have the answers to those questions now, but she hopes to soon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Scientists in Weker’s lab are also trying to make things inexpensive, sustainable and free of elements that lead to \u003ca href=\"https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2023/ev-cobalt-mines-congo/\">child labor and strip mining\u003c/a>. This effort requires intimate and coordinated collaboration, which is \u003ca href=\"https://www6.slac.stanford.edu/news/2023-04-13-new-slac-stanford-battery-center-targets-roadblocks-sustainable-energy-transition\">a strength for SLAC and Stanford,\u003c/a> between experts in chemistry, materials science, engineering and a host of other fields.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, did our question-asker, Eric Nelson, understand it all?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Absolutely. In fact, if you need a recap later, I’m sure I’ll be able to help. No problem at all,” he laughed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’re interested in taking a public tour of SLAC, there are two to four\u003ca href=\"https://www6.slac.stanford.edu/public-tours\"> of them available each month\u003c/a>. But they’re capped at 30 people at a time, and I’m told they fill up quickly. I can’t recommend it highly enough!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Hey everyone! I’m Olivia Allen-Price. And this is Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Should you find yourself driving on Interstate 280, just south of the Sand Hill Road exit, near Stanford, there is this overpass that crosses over a long, skinny building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And when I say long, I do mean looooong. At nearly 2 miles, it’s one of the longest buildings on the planet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Eric Nelson of Petaluma has wondered about it for years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eric Nelson: \u003c/b>What’s that huge, long building on the side of 280 that I drive by all the time but really have no idea what it is?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Turns out, drivers crossing over that long, skinny building are mere meters away from one of the most advanced technology labs in the world. A place where scientists are exploring how the universe works at the biggest and smallest levels. Inside the lab, particles travel at speeds that would put any hot rod to shame. I’m talking 669 million miles per hour, that’s just shy of the speed of light!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We called up Stanford to ask what’s up with this thing? And they said “Come on over! We give tours!” So today on the show we’re heading inside the \u003ca href=\"https://www6.slac.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/2022-10/slac_factsheet_btn_08_2022_final.pdf\">SLAC National Accelerator Laboratory\u003c/a> in Menlo Park. SLAC used to stand for the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center, but now it’s just SLAC. Not an acronym.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Get ready to have your mind a little bit blown. Or a lotta bit blown, if you zoned out during high school physics class like I did. That’s all just ahead on Bay Curious! I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sponsor message\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Today we’re exploring a massive, 426-acre campus near Stanford where scientists are conducting all sorts of cutting edge research that has implications for astronomy, clean energy, medicine and more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our question asker, Eric Nelson, is along for the ride with KQED’s Rachael Myrow. She was an English major in college, so hopefully, she can explain some of this to us in plain English.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> Look, if you’re like me, metaphors help to get a grip on complex scientific concepts. So before we get out of the tour van to visit SLAC — that’s SLAC with a C, not with a CK like the office app — I want to make a quick stop in the 19th century.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Crackle of phonograph \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>Just to help illustrate the basic concept behind a linear accelerator, let’s review a scientific first that happened in Palo Alto before Stanford was Stanford.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sound of a horse running\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>Leland Stanford, the super rich railroad baron, bred and raced horses on the land he later built the university on. In the 1870s, Stanford hired a guy named Eadweard Muybridge to photograph those horses\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sound of a camera clicking twice \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>To get a closer look at their strides. Closer than strides had ever been observed before. Now, Muybridge had a scientific bent to his thinking. So after some annoyingly blurry snaps he had an electric-powered battery of 12 cameras installed at Stanford’s race track, to catch a horse running past in a series of freeze frames.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sound of an old-timey projector rolling\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Hey, I know this story! When Muybridge ran all those photographs together at high speed, he got what, today, we call a movie. The father of “motion pictures.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>Exactly. Now imagine a much longer racetrack. And imagine, not horses running past, but tiny, tiny subatomic particles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Buzzing sound\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>The building that houses this thing is almost two miles long and the cameras, instead of recording sunlight bouncing off horses, use ultra bright x-ray light those particles throw off to create freeze frame movies of molecules. Also, when they move fast, they buzz. A lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Spurlock: \u003c/b>That is actually the sound of our accelerator operating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>That’s Rachel Spurlock, working on her PhD in Chemical Engineering at Stanford, and our tour guide in the visitor alcove of SLAC’s Linear Accelerator.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Spooky sound effect\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>This is what drivers on 280 pass over regularly — absolutely clueless — because from the outside, the linear accelerator building looks like a long, skinny, beige warehouse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow (in scene): \u003c/b>What are the pros and cons of having a linear accelerator, versus a circular one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Spurlock: \u003c/b>Yeah, Nowadays, I think it would be very rare to find a linear accelerator the way we have here at SLAC. Most are built circular. But we also have some accelerator research going on here at SLAC. One portion of our original 1960s accelerator is dedicated to research to shorten the length of accelerators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>When this was built in the 1960s, they needed a two-mile long building so there’s time and space enough to “accelerate” electrons to close to the speed of light. The building is so long, you can’t see to the end of it inside.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Spurlock: \u003c/b>Our accelerator moves 120 bunches of electrons per second.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow (In scene): \u003c/b>They make a big noise for such small particles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Spurlock: \u003c/b>They do. They do. A lot of people who come visit think that the noise is actually the fluorescents, but it’s the accelerator. \u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>Inside the building that houses them, two long tubes stretch to what seems like infinity to the human eye — one large aluminum tube on the bottom, and a smaller copper tube on top, where the electrons are. What’s moving the electrons along? More than 150 microwave generators called “klystrons.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Spurlock:\u003c/b> The exact same thing that you have in your kitchen at home in your microwave, except about 60 times stronger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>You could bake a potato in one of these klystrons in a millisecond. Which impressed our question asker, Eric.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eric Nelson: \u003c/b>I want to come here to fix my TV dinner tonight!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>The whole shebang is surrounded by a lot of yellow “caution” tape and bright, plastic, orange delineators, to keep people from touching things they’re not supposed to touch. How did this thing get here? Let’s go back to the end of World War II.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During WWII, physicists working in Los Alamos, New Mexico developed the atom bomb. A\u003ci>fter\u003c/i> that war, Stanford physicists wanted to get a better look \u003ci>inside\u003c/i> the atom. But just like Muybridge, they needed a specialized, cutting edge contraption to do it. So they pitched the idea of a linear accelerator to the Atomic Energy Commission, to explore the basic building blocks of the universe, as explained here in a 1964 documentary called “The Worlds Within.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Archival Video: \u003c/b>The largest and most expensive tool in the world, in a pastoral setting. Music. What the nation is investing in this accelerator, and the contribution which Stanford is making in terms of its land, are used to buy knowledge and fundamental understanding of nature.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>Over the following years, SLAC won 3 Nobel prizes for its early research, including: the discovery of two fundamental particles, proving protons are made of quarks, and showing how DNA directs protein manufacturing in cells.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Not too shabby. But of course, science has moved on from these first, basic lines of inquiry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> Yes! Now, as then, SLAC functions like a cutting edge research \u003ci>hacker space\u003c/i>. Anybody can propose a project, and if receiving the thumbs up from a research committee, do their experiment at one of the facilities. Which are constantly being upgraded and modernized to allow for scientists to \u003ci>stay\u003c/i> on the cutting edge of research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Spurlock: \u003c/b>We no longer use our linear accelerator for those particle physics experiments that I mentioned were kind of the foundation of SLAC when it was first conceived and developed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>In fact, if you were flying over the campus, you’d see what looks like a clutch of big warehouses. Nondescript on the outside, chock full of scientific labs on the inside: wires, tubes, cylinders and tanks and such.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Spurlock: \u003c/b>If your proposal is accepted, you can come and use our facilities absolutely for free, as long as you publish your results. If you don’t want to publish your results, it can get very expensive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow (in scene): \u003c/b>And would those mostly be, I guess, private corporations that are hoping to profit from the results of their research?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Spurlock: \u003c/b>Exactly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> What kind of research happens at SLAC today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow\u003c/b> Soooo many kinds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>And not just using the linear accelerators. \u003ci>Yes, plural. \u003c/i>SLAC is home to a campus full of different lab spaces doing different things, using X-rays, lasers and electron beams for groundbreaking experiments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Like what? Anything concrete a regular person would understand?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> Here’s another metaphor. You know the MRI machine doctors use to get a 3-D picture of your organs and tissues?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Yup.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> Now imagine using that x-ray light I mentioned earlier — the x-ray light that particles speeding through a linear accelerator throw off — to look at your insides! at the molecular level!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Matthias Kling: \u003c/b>With X-ray light, we’re able to look at atoms. So we’re looking at microscopic details of what matter is doing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>Matthias Kling is Director of Science, Research and Development at the Linac Coherent Light Source at SLAC. I know, Olivia, that’s a mouthful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Scientists are trying to find ways to make the equipment smaller, cheaper, and capable of operating at room temperature, so one day the equivalent of an MRI machine could be available to many more people. At their doctor’s offices, among other places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Matthias Kling: \u003c/b>We’re striving to stay at that frontier. So that’s why we’re constantly thinking about, OK, ‘What is it that would enable us to answer the next big question?’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>Watching chemical reactions as they happen, at the molecular level, could lead to groundbreaking insights in a variety of fields, from computing to pharmaceuticals to aerospace to clean energy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Matthias was done with his part of the tour, I turned to our question asker Eric, whose eyes were spinning as fast as mine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow (in scene): \u003c/b>Any questions?\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Eric Nelson: \u003c/b>No, I’m just blown away with the people who founded this originally. If they had a vision of where they would be now. If you could, Like, put them in a time machine. And like, ‘Here you are. Did you have any concept of this little tube you built, what impact it would be having on the world?’ That just blows me away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>And now to a camera big enough to capture the night sky.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>We took a van over to a hangar where SLAC LSST Camera Deputy Project Manager Travis Lange stood with us in front of a brightly lit clean room, home to…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Travis Lange: \u003c/b>The world’s \u003ca href=\"https://phys.org/news/2024-01-astronomers-chile-scour-universe-car.html\">largest digital camera\u003c/a>. 3.2 giga pixels. Considerably larger than, you know, your iPhone camera. It is going to be mounted on a mountaintop in northern Chile. And we are using it to do a survey of the sky.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>It’s not just that this thing is massive, the size of a 3 ton car, with a lens bigger than 5 feet in diameter. Or that it can capture a huge swath of sky with every photograph.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Travis Lange: \u003c/b>It will take images, and within 60 seconds of a shutter closing, it will do a bunch of analysis. It will do comparisons to previous images that it has, and it will detect that there’s things that are different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>What’s the point of a camera this big? One that costs $200 million dollars to construct?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Travis Lange: \u003c/b>In a very large image, there’s going to be thousands and thousands of things. So every single image, you’re going to get a lot of things that are different from the previous time. So there are some things in cosmology that happen very slowly. Most things, actually, right? The universe is a very slow moving thing. But there are some things that occur very fast. So things like super novaes. Or asteroids that are coming through our solar system. So those kind of things, those very transient events, are very hard to detect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>This camera can detect them, and then scientists can direct astronomers working with bigger, more powerful telescopes to point them at the thing that is happening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Travis Lange: \u003c/b>And get a really in depth image in real time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Rachael, that’s mind blowing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> But wait, there’s more! You might be wondering at this point whether anything SLAC researchers are working on could be ready for the rest of us to use in \u003ci>the near future\u003c/i>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Yes, yes I am.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> That’s where Johanna Nelson Weker comes in. She’s a lead scientist at the SLAC-Stanford Battery Center. She and her colleagues are researching cleaner, greener forms of energy storage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Johanna Nelson Weker: \u003c/b>One of the goals for making a battery for, not a vehicle, but putting it onto the grid, is for it to be longer duration than a standard lithium ion battery. If you want to store energy for more than 8 hours, lithium ion battery technology’s not good. It’s way too expensive and it doesn’t last.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> Scientists in Weker’s lab are also trying to make things inexpensive, sustainable and free of elements that lead to child labor and strip mining.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Johanna Nelson Weker: \u003c/b>So we’re looking at things that are much cheaper. Can we make a battery out of rust, for example? Iron oxygen battery? Things that are, you know, ridiculously cheap, that you could bring the cost of storing energy down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow (in scene): \u003c/b>Does that make the batteries more sustainable, more easily disposed of, et cetera, et cetera?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Johanna Nelson Weker: \u003c/b>Not necessarily, but that’s also a goal we have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Rachael, this all sounds super cool. But I’m overwhelmed! Did our question asker Eric understand it all?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eric Nelson: \u003c/b>Absolutely. In fact, if you need a recap later, I’m sure I’ll be able to help, provide a recap. No problem at all. \u003ci>(Laughing)\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> I hope I haven’t scared y’all off — because this is an awesome tour — and there are two to four of them a month available to the public. But they’re capped at 30 people at a time and I’m told they fill up pretty quick. Can’t recommend it highly enough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> KQED’s Rachael Myrow, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>You’re welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Big thanks to Eric Nelson for asking this week’s question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you are enjoying Bay Curious, would you do me a favor? Head to Bay Curious in the listening app of your choice, make sure you subscribe and make sure you turn on your auto downloads. That way you’re automatically getting every episode as soon as it comes out. And! It would be so nice if you could leave a rating and review for the show. You can do that on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Five stars. A written review. Let us know what you’re enjoying about the show so we can bring you even more of it. Those are much appreciated. Thanks to everyone who has done so already. I know it only takes a minute, but wow does that minute mean a lot to us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Carly Severn, Bianca Taylor, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Did you know one of the longest buildings \u003cem>on the planet\u003c/em> is in Menlo Park? And drivers speeding along Interstate 280, near Sand Hill Road, pass mere meters above it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Eric Nelson of Petaluma wanted to know more about the nearly 2-mile-long structure. He asked, “What’s that huge, long building on the side of 280 that I drive by all the time but really have no idea what it is?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Turns out the \u003ca href=\"https://www6.slac.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/2022-10/slac_factsheet_btn_08_2022_final.pdf\">SLAC National Accelerator Laboratory\u003c/a> is home to a scientific marvel that pushes particles to travel close to the speed of light. We called up Stanford, which is home to SLAC — SLAC used to stand for the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center, but now it’s just SLAC. Not an acronym — and they said the equivalent of, “Come on over! We give tours!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11978061\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11978061\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/240129-SLAC-21-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"A woman faces a monitor that is displaying information about the linear accelerator. She is pointing at a part of the screen with her finger. You cannot see her face, only the back of her head. \" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/240129-SLAC-21-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/240129-SLAC-21-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/240129-SLAC-21-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/240129-SLAC-21-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/240129-SLAC-21-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Student researcher Rachel Spurlock explains the Linear Accelerator at the SLAC National Accelerator Laboratory, operated by Stanford University for the US Department of Energy, in Menlo Park on Jan. 29, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Not one lab but many\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Let’s start with the fact that SLAC is big. It’s a \u003ca href=\"https://www6.slac.stanford.edu/about/lab-overview\">426-acre campus\u003c/a> near Stanford University is made up of several facilities where scientists are conducting all sorts of cutting-edge research. That long, skinny building Eric noticed is just one of the facilities — the linear accelerator. It’s not the only particle accelerator in the world, but it was \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/quest/17535/homegrown-particle-accelerators\">one of the first.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The building that houses this thing is almost two miles long. Cameras inside record the ultra-bright X-ray light that particles throw off to create freeze-frame movies of molecules, allowing the scientists to see what’s going on in the universe at the subatomic level. This is research that has implications for particle physics, yes, but also \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/futureofyou/443483/physicists-go-small-lets-put-a-particle-accelerator-on-a-chip\">computer chips\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/916677/stanford-develops-chiclet-sized-device-that-purifies-water-using-sunlight\">clean energy\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/28510/researchers-at-slac-study-promising-alternative-to-morphine\">medicine\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/99894/what-happens-when-you-zap-coral-with-the-worlds-most-powerful-x-ray-laser\">ancient weather\u003c/a>, and much, much more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When electrons move fast, they buzz. A LOT.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of people who come visit think that the noise is actually the fluorescents, but it’s the accelerator,” our tour guide, Rachel Spurlock, told us in the visitor alcove of SLAC’s Linear Accelerator. She’s working on her Ph.D. in Chemical Engineering at Stanford. “That is actually the sound of our accelerator operating. Our accelerator moves 120 bunches of electrons per second.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How do they pick up that much speed?\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11975061\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11975061\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-20-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A long room that you cannot see the end of. It is about 20 feet wide. On the left is a walkway for people and small vehicles. On the right side of the image, is the linear accelerator equipment, which looks like a lot of tubes and wires.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-20-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-20-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-20-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-20-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-20-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-20-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The building that houses the Linear Accelerator at the SLAC National Accelerator Laboratory, operated by Stanford University for the US Department of Energy, in Menlo Park on Jan. 29, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Particle accelerators \u003ca href=\"https://www.energy.gov/articles/how-particle-accelerators-work\">use electric fields\u003c/a> to speed up and energize a beam of particles, which are steered and focused by magnetic fields while the beam travels. Electric fields spaced around the accelerator switch from positive to negative at a given frequency, creating radio waves that accelerate particles in bunches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Two long tubes stretch to what seems like infinity to the human eye at SLAC: one large aluminum tube on the bottom and a smaller copper tube on top, where the electrons are. More than 150 microwave generators called \u003ca href=\"https://www6.slac.stanford.edu/media/2015-1216-0484-klystrongallery-tripodjpg\">klystrons\u003c/a> move the electrons along.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The exact same thing that you have in your kitchen at home in your microwave, except about 60 times stronger,” explains Spurlock, adding that you could bake a potato in one of these klystrons in a millisecond.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During WWII, physicists working in Los Alamos, New Mexico, developed the atom bomb. After WWII, Stanford physicists wanted to get a better look inside the atom. So they pitched the idea of a linear accelerator to the Atomic Energy Commission, explained here in a 1964 documentary called “The Worlds Within.”\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/9I4GxICAcBs'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/9I4GxICAcBs'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>Over the following years, SLAC won three Nobel prizes for its early research, including the discovery of two fundamental particles, proving protons are made of quarks, and showing how DNA directs protein manufacturing in cells.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But of course, science has moved on from these first, basic lines of inquiry, and so has SLAC. The facilities on this campus are constantly being modernized to allow scientists to stay on the cutting edge of research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today, SLAC functions like a high-tech hacker space. Anybody can propose a project, and if receiving the thumbs up from a research committee, do their experiment at one of the facilities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If your proposal is accepted, you can come and use our facilities absolutely for free, as long as you publish your results,” Spurlock said. “If you don’t want to publish your results, it can get very expensive.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That said, private corporations hoping to profit from the results of their research sometimes pitch experiments to SLAC.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11975065\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11975065\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-46-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A very complicated looking instrument about the size of a car with colorful wires and tubes.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-46-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-46-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-46-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-46-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-46-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-46-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The complexity of the research happening at SLAC can be overwhelming to many visitors, as one glance at this Linac Coherent Light Source instrument demonstrates. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>The world’s first hard X-ray free-electron laser\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Beyond the accelerators, SLAC’s campus is full of different lab spaces doing different things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“With X-ray light, we’re able to look at atoms. So we’re looking at microscopic details of what matter is doing,” said Matthias Kling, Director of Science, Research and Development at the Linac Coherent Light Source (\u003ca href=\"https://lcls.slac.stanford.edu/\">LCLS\u003c/a>) lab at SLAC. (There’s a second X-ray laser, too, at SLAC, called the \u003ca href=\"https://www.almanacnews.com/news/2023/09/18/menlo-parks-slac-turns-on-x-ray-that-can-take-images-at-the-attosecond/\">LCLS-II\u003c/a>.)\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/kUeraeIkTmo'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/kUeraeIkTmo'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>You know the MRI machine doctors use to get a 3D picture of your organs and tissues? Now imagine using that X-ray light that particles speeding through a linear accelerator throw off to look at your insides at the molecular level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Scientists are also trying to find ways to make the equipment smaller, cheaper, and capable of operating at room temperature so that one day, the equivalent of an MRI machine could be available to many more people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re striving to stay at that frontier. So that’s why we’re constantly thinking about, OK, ‘What is it that would enable us to answer the next big question?’” Kling said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Kling was done leading his part of the tour, I turned to Nelson, whose eyes were spinning as fast as mine. “I’m just blown away with the people who founded this originally. [I wonder] if they had a vision of where they would be now. If you could put them in a time machine and [ask], ‘Here you are. Did you have any concept of this little tube you built, what impact it would be having on the world?’” Nelson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But wait, there’s more.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>SLAC is home to the world’s largest digital camera\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11975069\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11975069\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-56-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A large white room with a black cylindrical drum-shaped instrument in the middle that is about the size of a car. \" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-56-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-56-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-56-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-56-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-56-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-56-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Legacy Survey of Space and Time, or LSST, camera at the SLAC National Accelerator Laboratory. The camera is the world’s largest digital camera and will be trasnported to the Vera C. Rubin Observatory in the mountains of Chile, where it will be mapping the southern sky. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The world’s largest digital camera has 3.2 gigapixels. That’s considerably larger than your smartphone camera. This thing is massive, the size of a 3-ton car, with a lens bigger than 5 feet in diameter. Also, it can capture a huge swath of sky with every photograph.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It will take images, and within 60 seconds of a shutter closing, it will do a bunch of analysis. It will do comparisons to previous images that it has, and it will detect that there’s things that are different,” SLAC LSST Camera Deputy Project Manager Travis Lange said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In a very large image, there’s going to be thousands and thousands of things,” Lange said. “So every single image, you’re going to get a lot of things that are different from the previous time. There are some things in cosmology that happen very slowly. Most things, actually, right? The universe is a very slow-moving thing, but there are some things that occur very fast. Things like supernovas or asteroids that are coming through our solar system. Those kinds of things, those very transient events, are very hard to detect.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11978064\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11978064\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/240129-SLAC-61-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"Two men having a conversation. One is facing the camera and wearing a blue shirt and glasses. The other is wearing a green shirt and facing away from the camera.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/240129-SLAC-61-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/240129-SLAC-61-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/240129-SLAC-61-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/240129-SLAC-61-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/240129-SLAC-61-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Travis Lange speaks with tour guest Eric Nelson about the Legacy Survey of Space and Time, or LSST, camera at the SLAC National Accelerator Laboratory. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>This camera, which cost $200 million to construct and will be mounted on a mountaintop in \u003ca href=\"https://phys.org/news/2024-01-astronomers-chile-scour-universe-car.html\">northern Chile\u003c/a>, can detect those transient events. Then, scientists can direct astronomers working with bigger, more powerful telescopes to point them at the thing that is happening, “and get a really in-depth image in real time,” Lange said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mind-blowing. But wait, there’s more.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A race for a cleaner, greener, long-lasting battery\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11975074\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11975074\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-86-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A woman stands in a laboratory touching small objects the size of playing cards. She is wearing purple gloves. \" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-86-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-86-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-86-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-86-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-86-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240129-SLAC-86-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Scientist Johanna Nelson Weker displays pouch cells in a battery lab. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Can we make a battery out of rust? Iron oxygen battery? Things that are ridiculously cheap that could bring the cost of storing energy down,” asked SLAC-Stanford Battery Center lead scientist Johanna Nelson Weker. She might not have the answers to those questions now, but she hopes to soon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Scientists in Weker’s lab are also trying to make things inexpensive, sustainable and free of elements that lead to \u003ca href=\"https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2023/ev-cobalt-mines-congo/\">child labor and strip mining\u003c/a>. This effort requires intimate and coordinated collaboration, which is \u003ca href=\"https://www6.slac.stanford.edu/news/2023-04-13-new-slac-stanford-battery-center-targets-roadblocks-sustainable-energy-transition\">a strength for SLAC and Stanford,\u003c/a> between experts in chemistry, materials science, engineering and a host of other fields.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, did our question-asker, Eric Nelson, understand it all?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Absolutely. In fact, if you need a recap later, I’m sure I’ll be able to help. No problem at all,” he laughed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’re interested in taking a public tour of SLAC, there are two to four\u003ca href=\"https://www6.slac.stanford.edu/public-tours\"> of them available each month\u003c/a>. But they’re capped at 30 people at a time, and I’m told they fill up quickly. I can’t recommend it highly enough!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Hey everyone! I’m Olivia Allen-Price. And this is Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Should you find yourself driving on Interstate 280, just south of the Sand Hill Road exit, near Stanford, there is this overpass that crosses over a long, skinny building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And when I say long, I do mean looooong. At nearly 2 miles, it’s one of the longest buildings on the planet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Eric Nelson of Petaluma has wondered about it for years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eric Nelson: \u003c/b>What’s that huge, long building on the side of 280 that I drive by all the time but really have no idea what it is?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Turns out, drivers crossing over that long, skinny building are mere meters away from one of the most advanced technology labs in the world. A place where scientists are exploring how the universe works at the biggest and smallest levels. Inside the lab, particles travel at speeds that would put any hot rod to shame. I’m talking 669 million miles per hour, that’s just shy of the speed of light!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We called up Stanford to ask what’s up with this thing? And they said “Come on over! We give tours!” So today on the show we’re heading inside the \u003ca href=\"https://www6.slac.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/2022-10/slac_factsheet_btn_08_2022_final.pdf\">SLAC National Accelerator Laboratory\u003c/a> in Menlo Park. SLAC used to stand for the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center, but now it’s just SLAC. Not an acronym.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Get ready to have your mind a little bit blown. Or a lotta bit blown, if you zoned out during high school physics class like I did. That’s all just ahead on Bay Curious! I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sponsor message\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Today we’re exploring a massive, 426-acre campus near Stanford where scientists are conducting all sorts of cutting edge research that has implications for astronomy, clean energy, medicine and more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our question asker, Eric Nelson, is along for the ride with KQED’s Rachael Myrow. She was an English major in college, so hopefully, she can explain some of this to us in plain English.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> Look, if you’re like me, metaphors help to get a grip on complex scientific concepts. So before we get out of the tour van to visit SLAC — that’s SLAC with a C, not with a CK like the office app — I want to make a quick stop in the 19th century.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Crackle of phonograph \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>Just to help illustrate the basic concept behind a linear accelerator, let’s review a scientific first that happened in Palo Alto before Stanford was Stanford.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sound of a horse running\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>Leland Stanford, the super rich railroad baron, bred and raced horses on the land he later built the university on. In the 1870s, Stanford hired a guy named Eadweard Muybridge to photograph those horses\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sound of a camera clicking twice \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>To get a closer look at their strides. Closer than strides had ever been observed before. Now, Muybridge had a scientific bent to his thinking. So after some annoyingly blurry snaps he had an electric-powered battery of 12 cameras installed at Stanford’s race track, to catch a horse running past in a series of freeze frames.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sound of an old-timey projector rolling\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Hey, I know this story! When Muybridge ran all those photographs together at high speed, he got what, today, we call a movie. The father of “motion pictures.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>Exactly. Now imagine a much longer racetrack. And imagine, not horses running past, but tiny, tiny subatomic particles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Buzzing sound\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>The building that houses this thing is almost two miles long and the cameras, instead of recording sunlight bouncing off horses, use ultra bright x-ray light those particles throw off to create freeze frame movies of molecules. Also, when they move fast, they buzz. A lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Spurlock: \u003c/b>That is actually the sound of our accelerator operating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>That’s Rachel Spurlock, working on her PhD in Chemical Engineering at Stanford, and our tour guide in the visitor alcove of SLAC’s Linear Accelerator.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Spooky sound effect\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>This is what drivers on 280 pass over regularly — absolutely clueless — because from the outside, the linear accelerator building looks like a long, skinny, beige warehouse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow (in scene): \u003c/b>What are the pros and cons of having a linear accelerator, versus a circular one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Spurlock: \u003c/b>Yeah, Nowadays, I think it would be very rare to find a linear accelerator the way we have here at SLAC. Most are built circular. But we also have some accelerator research going on here at SLAC. One portion of our original 1960s accelerator is dedicated to research to shorten the length of accelerators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>When this was built in the 1960s, they needed a two-mile long building so there’s time and space enough to “accelerate” electrons to close to the speed of light. The building is so long, you can’t see to the end of it inside.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Spurlock: \u003c/b>Our accelerator moves 120 bunches of electrons per second.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow (In scene): \u003c/b>They make a big noise for such small particles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Spurlock: \u003c/b>They do. They do. A lot of people who come visit think that the noise is actually the fluorescents, but it’s the accelerator. \u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>Inside the building that houses them, two long tubes stretch to what seems like infinity to the human eye — one large aluminum tube on the bottom, and a smaller copper tube on top, where the electrons are. What’s moving the electrons along? More than 150 microwave generators called “klystrons.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Spurlock:\u003c/b> The exact same thing that you have in your kitchen at home in your microwave, except about 60 times stronger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>You could bake a potato in one of these klystrons in a millisecond. Which impressed our question asker, Eric.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eric Nelson: \u003c/b>I want to come here to fix my TV dinner tonight!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>The whole shebang is surrounded by a lot of yellow “caution” tape and bright, plastic, orange delineators, to keep people from touching things they’re not supposed to touch. How did this thing get here? Let’s go back to the end of World War II.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During WWII, physicists working in Los Alamos, New Mexico developed the atom bomb. A\u003ci>fter\u003c/i> that war, Stanford physicists wanted to get a better look \u003ci>inside\u003c/i> the atom. But just like Muybridge, they needed a specialized, cutting edge contraption to do it. So they pitched the idea of a linear accelerator to the Atomic Energy Commission, to explore the basic building blocks of the universe, as explained here in a 1964 documentary called “The Worlds Within.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Archival Video: \u003c/b>The largest and most expensive tool in the world, in a pastoral setting. Music. What the nation is investing in this accelerator, and the contribution which Stanford is making in terms of its land, are used to buy knowledge and fundamental understanding of nature.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>Over the following years, SLAC won 3 Nobel prizes for its early research, including: the discovery of two fundamental particles, proving protons are made of quarks, and showing how DNA directs protein manufacturing in cells.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Not too shabby. But of course, science has moved on from these first, basic lines of inquiry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> Yes! Now, as then, SLAC functions like a cutting edge research \u003ci>hacker space\u003c/i>. Anybody can propose a project, and if receiving the thumbs up from a research committee, do their experiment at one of the facilities. Which are constantly being upgraded and modernized to allow for scientists to \u003ci>stay\u003c/i> on the cutting edge of research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Spurlock: \u003c/b>We no longer use our linear accelerator for those particle physics experiments that I mentioned were kind of the foundation of SLAC when it was first conceived and developed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>In fact, if you were flying over the campus, you’d see what looks like a clutch of big warehouses. Nondescript on the outside, chock full of scientific labs on the inside: wires, tubes, cylinders and tanks and such.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Spurlock: \u003c/b>If your proposal is accepted, you can come and use our facilities absolutely for free, as long as you publish your results. If you don’t want to publish your results, it can get very expensive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow (in scene): \u003c/b>And would those mostly be, I guess, private corporations that are hoping to profit from the results of their research?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Spurlock: \u003c/b>Exactly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> What kind of research happens at SLAC today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow\u003c/b> Soooo many kinds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>And not just using the linear accelerators. \u003ci>Yes, plural. \u003c/i>SLAC is home to a campus full of different lab spaces doing different things, using X-rays, lasers and electron beams for groundbreaking experiments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Like what? Anything concrete a regular person would understand?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> Here’s another metaphor. You know the MRI machine doctors use to get a 3-D picture of your organs and tissues?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Yup.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> Now imagine using that x-ray light I mentioned earlier — the x-ray light that particles speeding through a linear accelerator throw off — to look at your insides! at the molecular level!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Matthias Kling: \u003c/b>With X-ray light, we’re able to look at atoms. So we’re looking at microscopic details of what matter is doing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>Matthias Kling is Director of Science, Research and Development at the Linac Coherent Light Source at SLAC. I know, Olivia, that’s a mouthful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Scientists are trying to find ways to make the equipment smaller, cheaper, and capable of operating at room temperature, so one day the equivalent of an MRI machine could be available to many more people. At their doctor’s offices, among other places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Matthias Kling: \u003c/b>We’re striving to stay at that frontier. So that’s why we’re constantly thinking about, OK, ‘What is it that would enable us to answer the next big question?’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>Watching chemical reactions as they happen, at the molecular level, could lead to groundbreaking insights in a variety of fields, from computing to pharmaceuticals to aerospace to clean energy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Matthias was done with his part of the tour, I turned to our question asker Eric, whose eyes were spinning as fast as mine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow (in scene): \u003c/b>Any questions?\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Eric Nelson: \u003c/b>No, I’m just blown away with the people who founded this originally. If they had a vision of where they would be now. If you could, Like, put them in a time machine. And like, ‘Here you are. Did you have any concept of this little tube you built, what impact it would be having on the world?’ That just blows me away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>And now to a camera big enough to capture the night sky.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>We took a van over to a hangar where SLAC LSST Camera Deputy Project Manager Travis Lange stood with us in front of a brightly lit clean room, home to…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Travis Lange: \u003c/b>The world’s \u003ca href=\"https://phys.org/news/2024-01-astronomers-chile-scour-universe-car.html\">largest digital camera\u003c/a>. 3.2 giga pixels. Considerably larger than, you know, your iPhone camera. It is going to be mounted on a mountaintop in northern Chile. And we are using it to do a survey of the sky.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>It’s not just that this thing is massive, the size of a 3 ton car, with a lens bigger than 5 feet in diameter. Or that it can capture a huge swath of sky with every photograph.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Travis Lange: \u003c/b>It will take images, and within 60 seconds of a shutter closing, it will do a bunch of analysis. It will do comparisons to previous images that it has, and it will detect that there’s things that are different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>What’s the point of a camera this big? One that costs $200 million dollars to construct?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Travis Lange: \u003c/b>In a very large image, there’s going to be thousands and thousands of things. So every single image, you’re going to get a lot of things that are different from the previous time. So there are some things in cosmology that happen very slowly. Most things, actually, right? The universe is a very slow moving thing. But there are some things that occur very fast. So things like super novaes. Or asteroids that are coming through our solar system. So those kind of things, those very transient events, are very hard to detect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>This camera can detect them, and then scientists can direct astronomers working with bigger, more powerful telescopes to point them at the thing that is happening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Travis Lange: \u003c/b>And get a really in depth image in real time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Rachael, that’s mind blowing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> But wait, there’s more! You might be wondering at this point whether anything SLAC researchers are working on could be ready for the rest of us to use in \u003ci>the near future\u003c/i>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Yes, yes I am.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> That’s where Johanna Nelson Weker comes in. She’s a lead scientist at the SLAC-Stanford Battery Center. She and her colleagues are researching cleaner, greener forms of energy storage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Johanna Nelson Weker: \u003c/b>One of the goals for making a battery for, not a vehicle, but putting it onto the grid, is for it to be longer duration than a standard lithium ion battery. If you want to store energy for more than 8 hours, lithium ion battery technology’s not good. It’s way too expensive and it doesn’t last.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> Scientists in Weker’s lab are also trying to make things inexpensive, sustainable and free of elements that lead to child labor and strip mining.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Johanna Nelson Weker: \u003c/b>So we’re looking at things that are much cheaper. Can we make a battery out of rust, for example? Iron oxygen battery? Things that are, you know, ridiculously cheap, that you could bring the cost of storing energy down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow (in scene): \u003c/b>Does that make the batteries more sustainable, more easily disposed of, et cetera, et cetera?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Johanna Nelson Weker: \u003c/b>Not necessarily, but that’s also a goal we have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Rachael, this all sounds super cool. But I’m overwhelmed! Did our question asker Eric understand it all?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eric Nelson: \u003c/b>Absolutely. In fact, if you need a recap later, I’m sure I’ll be able to help, provide a recap. No problem at all. \u003ci>(Laughing)\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> I hope I haven’t scared y’all off — because this is an awesome tour — and there are two to four of them a month available to the public. But they’re capped at 30 people at a time and I’m told they fill up pretty quick. Can’t recommend it highly enough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> KQED’s Rachael Myrow, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>You’re welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Big thanks to Eric Nelson for asking this week’s question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you are enjoying Bay Curious, would you do me a favor? Head to Bay Curious in the listening app of your choice, make sure you subscribe and make sure you turn on your auto downloads. That way you’re automatically getting every episode as soon as it comes out. And! It would be so nice if you could leave a rating and review for the show. You can do that on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Five stars. A written review. Let us know what you’re enjoying about the show so we can bring you even more of it. Those are much appreciated. Thanks to everyone who has done so already. I know it only takes a minute, but wow does that minute mean a lot to us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Carly Severn, Bianca Taylor, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
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"possible": {
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"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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"pri-the-world": {
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"radiolab": {
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},
"rightnowish": {
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"title": "Rightnowish",
"tagline": "Art is where you find it",
"info": "Rightnowish digs into life in the Bay Area right now… ish. Journalist Pendarvis Harshaw takes us to galleries painted on the sides of liquor stores in West Oakland. We'll dance in warehouses in the Bayview, make smoothies with kids in South Berkeley, and listen to classical music in a 1984 Cutlass Supreme in Richmond. Every week, Pen talks to movers and shakers about how the Bay Area shapes what they create, and how they shape the place we call home.",
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},
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"info": "Science Friday is a weekly science talk show, broadcast live over public radio stations nationwide. Each week, the show focuses on science topics that are in the news and tries to bring an educated, balanced discussion to bear on the scientific issues at hand. Panels of expert guests join host Ira Flatow, a veteran science journalist, to discuss science and to take questions from listeners during the call-in portion of the program.",
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"title": "Snap Judgment",
"tagline": "Real stories with killer beats",
"info": "The Snap Judgment radio show and podcast mixes real stories with killer beats to produce cinematic, dramatic radio. Snap's musical brand of storytelling dares listeners to see the world through the eyes of another. This is storytelling... with a BEAT!! Snap first aired on public radio stations nationwide in July 2010. Today, Snap Judgment airs on over 450 public radio stations and is brought to the airwaves by KQED & PRX.",
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},
"soldout": {
"id": "soldout",
"title": "SOLD OUT: Rethinking Housing in America",
"tagline": "A new future for housing",
"info": "Sold Out: Rethinking Housing in America",
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