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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s an all too common experience — that new refrigerator, computer or blender stops working and no amount of troubleshooting can fix it. Maybe you spend some time on the phone with an IT specialist or a repair person comes out to take a look. But often it’s easier and cheaper to buy a new one than to fix it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC1479508772\" width=\"100%\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s not by accident. Over the years, manufacturers have made it harder for us to fix our own electronics by practicing what’s called “repair monopoly.” They make it hard to find the information, tools and parts necessary for us to fix our own stuff. But all that might be changing. A new “Right to Repair” law goes into effect in California July 1, which will require manufacturers to make those resources available for a certain amount of time. In the meantime, there’s a thriving “Fix-It” community in the Bay Area, ready to help you fix your own stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nOlivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> It all started on the day before Thanksgiving. The one day of the year that you really just need everything in your kitchen to work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>My dishwasher finished its cycle and I pulled open the door. Inside — I found two racks of filthy dishes, like worse than when I’d put them in — and 6 inches of really gross standing water in the bottom of the machine. I spent some time troubleshooting, but no luck. The dishwasher wouldn’t drain, or even really respond to any of the buttons I was frantically trying to mash.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>(phone ringing)\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We put in a call to our landlord. A few days later — after a lavish Thanksgiving meal where we hand washed every single pot, pan, dish, glass and fork — a service person came out. Only to deem this dishwasher, which was only a few years old, gone for good. Beyond repair. Off to the landfill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, this is an unfortunate story on its own … but what really grinds my gears is that this is the \u003ci>third\u003c/i> dishwasher we’ve had since we started renting our place 8 years ago. Why can’t these things be repaired?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Bay Curious theme music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Today on Bay Curious we want to share an episode from our sister podcast, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/thebay\">The Bay\u003c/a> … all about a new law that will go into effect in California this year that should help make it more possible to fix our stuff! Plus, we’ll take a trip to a fix-it clinic in Redwood City, where a growing right to repair movement is up and running. I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oh and stick around at the end of the episode for more on an event all about something else — your clothes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sponsor message\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> I’m handing this one over to Ericka Cruz-Guevara, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/thebay\">host of The Bay podcast\u003c/a>, and reporter Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman, who kicks things off with a trip to the Peninsula.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>So I went to a fix it clinic at the Redwood City Library…Walking in there? I mean, it’s this really kind of fun environment. It’s a little bit chaotic, but it’s very high energy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>There’s about a dozen and a half tables there, and they’ve got all sorts of appliances, electronics. Vacuums, fans, air purifiers, and they’re sort of splayed open. And there’s a fix it coach, which is essentially a volunteer alongside people who have brought these items in. And they’re got their sleeves rolled up and they’re digging in and they’re trying to diagnose and fix whatever’s wrong with the thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>Fix it. Clinics are sort of these pop up events. They’re facilitated by volunteers. And these volunteers are basically handy people who are down to spend a Saturday morning helping people fix their things. And the kind of people that are coming in are just everyday people. And they have something, an appliance, an electronic that they really like, but it’s broken.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>Fix it coaches are basically standing over your shoulder and telling you what to do, and then the person who brings in the item is performing the repair mostly themselves. So it’s really much more of an educational opportunity than just sort of a repair service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>And you mentioned this is primarily run by volunteers. Who exactly is running these clinics?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>So Peter Mui started, Fix It clinic back in 2009.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Mui: \u003c/b>It’s incumbent on us at this point in the planet to keep all of our durable goods in service in place as long as possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>Since then, it’s grown immensely. And now this year, Fix It clinic has partnered with the San Mateo County Office of Sustainability to bring a fix it clinic to a different San Mateo County library every month this year. And so, is this your job?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Mui: \u003c/b>No. This is this is a passion. Now, fix a clinic is a hobby of mine that’s gotten way out of control.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>Well, I know you talked with some folks there who were there to get their stuff fixed. Can you tell me about Nancy Harris?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>Yeah. So, Nancy Harris lives in Moss Beach, which is about 25 miles away. It’s on the coast. And she brought in this magic bullet blender.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Harris: \u003c/b>And I’m so tired of buying a new one. I would love to fix this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Schmitt: \u003c/b>All right, let’s see. I’ve worked on one of the bigger ones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>This was actually the fourth magic bullet blender that she’s owned. As she walked in, she was matched with this volunteer named Alex Schmitt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>And Alex Schmitt lives in the county. Works in software. Says he likes to tinker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Schmitt: \u003c/b>There is one of these that the tabs may have broken off. And it looks like there may be jams. Oh. So.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>So, Nancy basically described the problem. When she plugs it in, the motor of the blender just starts whirring immediately, and she can’t get it to turn off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Harris: \u003c/b>When you’ve got it plugged in, it’s supposed to not immediately start, but start when you put the top on and screw it and you’re ready to go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>Alex says, okay, well, let’s let’s take a look. And within a few minutes, really, he diagnoses the problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Schmitt: \u003c/b>So now the question is, will it spin the way that you’re having the issue with. Yeah it will. Okay. You mentioned it leaks. Yes. So whatever whatever leaked in there has sort of gummed up these plastic elements that depress the switch on the bottom to the point that they got stuck on the lower end. And so it was always on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>So the all of the gunk, all of the smoothie and coffee and all the things that Nancy Harris has blended over the past few years has sort of seeped down into this switch that activates the motor. So it was actually diagnosed really quickly and simply.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Schmitt: \u003c/b>And that would do it for you. But the big thing is cleaning, and I’m guessing we have some Q-tips and some alcohol that we can work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>Okay. Did she get it fixed?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>Yeah. So it took her and Alex Schmitt about an hour to fix the blender, and it did end up getting fixed. Basically, it just needed to be cleaned. They really just went in there with cotton swabs and rubbing alcohol and sort of freed up all the sticky stuff that was making the motor stuck in the on position. They even found like a small family of bugs living in the motor. So there’s all these little discoveries that they make along the way. And.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>Well, what happened when Nancy and Alex got the magic bullet working again?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>As Nancy Harris walked out with her fixed to working magic bullet blender, volunteers took the magic bullet blender, held it aloft and yelled, you know, magic bullet blender fixed. Nancy Harris, she said she was overjoyed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Harris: \u003c/b>We fixed something that had been broken and driving me crazy for at least a year and a half. It just saved me a lot of time and energy, and I learned how to fix it myself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>You know, you could really see this, like, sort of contagious look of excitement and happiness. And that’s kind of shared by the whole room when you know something gets fixed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Harris: \u003c/b>It’s not saves you, what, 100, $200 every couple of years when this happens again, I’m really, really, really happy about it. And I feel very empowered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>Coming up, how exactly have manufacturers made it harder for us to fix our own stuff? Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>It does for some reason, also feel like a thing of the past. Like this idea that we as consumers can fix things ourselves. Like, I mean, I’m just thinking also about my partner’s laptop, which he’s been trying to get fixed for like the past two weeks. And at this point he’s like, God, I should just buy a new laptop at this point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>Yeah. I mean, what you’re talking about is what’s called a repair monopoly. Basically, a manufacturer will, you know, not make their parts or tools or information necessary to repair their item accessible to consumers, basically forcing people to have to go to them to, get their thing repaired. Some companies will use, like, proprietary screw heads to put their devices together, or they’re not designed to be serviced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>There’s even something called parts pairing with electronics, where parts are paired to the serial number of your, say, computer. And if you put in a different part, it will throw an error code when you know you try to turn it back on. There’s also this idea of planned obsolescence, right, where, you know, companies are basically making things to break because it’s more profitable for them to sell you something new as opposed to have you repair it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>So, you know, manufacturers make it harder to repair their things, which means that your local shop can’t repair them. So then there’s, you know, these shops go out of business, and pretty soon the only place you can get the thing repaired is the company that made it. They can charge whatever they want, they can take as long as they want, or they can tell you it’s not able to be repaired, even if maybe it is, and force you to buy a new one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>Well, how then is all have people actually tried to combat this disposable culture, this culture of buying new? On a larger scale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>Over the past decade, really? And earlier than that as well, we’ve started to see this rise of what’s called the right to repair movement. And basically, in a nutshell, right to repair says if you bought an item, you have the right to repair it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>And tell me what that has looked like in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>So we’re seeing a lot of people interested at the community level in repairing their own things, but it’s actually translated into a movement in state governments to put this kind of legislation on the books. So here in California last year, there was a law passed, and it’s basically a right to repair law goes into effect July 1st this year. And so it changed how manufacturers have to make repair accessible basically to the public.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>Right now, consumers in California are protected by this thing called the song Beverly Consumer Warranty Act. And basically that says that if a manufacturer makes an implied or expressed warranty on a product, then they need to make the parts, tools, and information necessary to repair that item available for a certain amount of years after the last model is produced, depending on how much that item costs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>This new California law is really moving that forward. So this California law applies to appliances and electronics, and it basically says that if an item cost between $50 and 9999, then the manufacturer has to make the parts, tools and information necessary to repair that item available for three years after the last production date of the model. If that item is more than 9999, then the manufacturer needs to make the parts, tools, and information available for seven years after the last production date.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>There’s a lot of hope in the right to repair movement that with a state like California passing a right to repair law, that it’s really going to build momentum in the in the nationwide right to repair movement. And we’re starting to see that this year. So far, 24 states are considering right to repair legislation. And that’s just at the last count.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>So it sounds like this law is really about giving people the tools to fix things themselves. Was there any pushback on this law?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>Yeah. I mean, writer repair gets a lot of pushback, and it’s mostly from, you know, big electronics companies like Apple. And then you have ag equipment companies like John Deere have historically pushed back against right to repair legislation. Apple lobbied heavily against this law and then came on in support of it at the last second, when they saw that it had basically, a guaranteed chance of passing or that it was going to pass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>Coming back to the Fixit clinic that you went to in Redwood City. I imagine we’re going to see more of these kinds of clinics. In other cities, it seems like there’s already a lot of interest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>Yeah, I mean, it’s it’s definitely possible. The San Mateo County Office of Sustainability is partnering with the library system there to bring a different fix it clinic every month to different libraries in the county. Fix it clinic also has a presence on on the social platform discord. Have hundreds of members on that platform. And the founder of Fix It clinic, Peter Mui:, actually told me that they have people in Africa or Europe and spread out all throughout the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Mui: \u003c/b>So we basically, during the pandemic, launched a Global Fixers server on discord that allowed us to extend repair to anybody on the planet who has an internet connection and can get on discord.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>I spoke with a representative from the San Mateo County Office of Sustainability, and she said that basically their demand is far exceeding capacity. There’s a ton of interest in these kinds of events throughout San Mateo County. And as we’re seeing sort of throughout the nation in the world at this point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>Why do you think that is?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>I think as humans, really, we have this natural inclination to want to fix things. Peter Mui: would say that we are repairers at heart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Mui: \u003c/b>Because when that thing starts working again and they are the ones who fixed it, you know, it’s like Easter, you know, it’s really it’s a really wonderful feeling that we don’t want to deprive anybody of. You want to empower these people to be able to repair stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>I mean, personally, you know, I, I used to have an old pickup truck, and I actually replaced the clutch on my pickup truck one time, and I went to my mechanic friend and told him about the experience. And he said, you know, that’s a feeling you can’t buy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>Azul, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>You’re very welcome. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> That was Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman, a reporter for KQED, and Ericka Cruz Guevarra, host of the podcast, The Bay. If you like what you heard, check out more episodes on The Bay’s podcast feed. They are an awesome news-focused companion to your Bay Curious listening, a bit like The Daily, but for local news.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If this episode got you thinking you’d like to learn more about how to repair your own stuff, we’ve got an event for you. Next Thursday, March 14th, \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/live\">KQED is hosting a sustainable fashion event\u003c/a>. Experts will be on hand who will teach you how to mend your clothes and style them in new and exciting ways. We’ll put a link in our show notes or you can look for it at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/live\">kqed.org/live\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That episode was produced by Maria Esquinca, Alan Montecillo and Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Engineering support from Brendan Willard and Christopher Beale. The rest of the Bay Curious team includes Katrina Schwartz and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s an all too common experience — that new refrigerator, computer or blender stops working and no amount of troubleshooting can fix it. Maybe you spend some time on the phone with an IT specialist or a repair person comes out to take a look. But often it’s easier and cheaper to buy a new one than to fix it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC1479508772\" width=\"100%\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s not by accident. Over the years, manufacturers have made it harder for us to fix our own electronics by practicing what’s called “repair monopoly.” They make it hard to find the information, tools and parts necessary for us to fix our own stuff. But all that might be changing. A new “Right to Repair” law goes into effect in California July 1, which will require manufacturers to make those resources available for a certain amount of time. In the meantime, there’s a thriving “Fix-It” community in the Bay Area, ready to help you fix your own stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nOlivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> It all started on the day before Thanksgiving. The one day of the year that you really just need everything in your kitchen to work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>My dishwasher finished its cycle and I pulled open the door. Inside — I found two racks of filthy dishes, like worse than when I’d put them in — and 6 inches of really gross standing water in the bottom of the machine. I spent some time troubleshooting, but no luck. The dishwasher wouldn’t drain, or even really respond to any of the buttons I was frantically trying to mash.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>(phone ringing)\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We put in a call to our landlord. A few days later — after a lavish Thanksgiving meal where we hand washed every single pot, pan, dish, glass and fork — a service person came out. Only to deem this dishwasher, which was only a few years old, gone for good. Beyond repair. Off to the landfill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, this is an unfortunate story on its own … but what really grinds my gears is that this is the \u003ci>third\u003c/i> dishwasher we’ve had since we started renting our place 8 years ago. Why can’t these things be repaired?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Bay Curious theme music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Today on Bay Curious we want to share an episode from our sister podcast, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/thebay\">The Bay\u003c/a> … all about a new law that will go into effect in California this year that should help make it more possible to fix our stuff! Plus, we’ll take a trip to a fix-it clinic in Redwood City, where a growing right to repair movement is up and running. I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oh and stick around at the end of the episode for more on an event all about something else — your clothes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sponsor message\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> I’m handing this one over to Ericka Cruz-Guevara, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/thebay\">host of The Bay podcast\u003c/a>, and reporter Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman, who kicks things off with a trip to the Peninsula.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>So I went to a fix it clinic at the Redwood City Library…Walking in there? I mean, it’s this really kind of fun environment. It’s a little bit chaotic, but it’s very high energy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>There’s about a dozen and a half tables there, and they’ve got all sorts of appliances, electronics. Vacuums, fans, air purifiers, and they’re sort of splayed open. And there’s a fix it coach, which is essentially a volunteer alongside people who have brought these items in. And they’re got their sleeves rolled up and they’re digging in and they’re trying to diagnose and fix whatever’s wrong with the thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>Fix it. Clinics are sort of these pop up events. They’re facilitated by volunteers. And these volunteers are basically handy people who are down to spend a Saturday morning helping people fix their things. And the kind of people that are coming in are just everyday people. And they have something, an appliance, an electronic that they really like, but it’s broken.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>Fix it coaches are basically standing over your shoulder and telling you what to do, and then the person who brings in the item is performing the repair mostly themselves. So it’s really much more of an educational opportunity than just sort of a repair service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>And you mentioned this is primarily run by volunteers. Who exactly is running these clinics?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>So Peter Mui started, Fix It clinic back in 2009.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Mui: \u003c/b>It’s incumbent on us at this point in the planet to keep all of our durable goods in service in place as long as possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>Since then, it’s grown immensely. And now this year, Fix It clinic has partnered with the San Mateo County Office of Sustainability to bring a fix it clinic to a different San Mateo County library every month this year. And so, is this your job?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Mui: \u003c/b>No. This is this is a passion. Now, fix a clinic is a hobby of mine that’s gotten way out of control.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>Well, I know you talked with some folks there who were there to get their stuff fixed. Can you tell me about Nancy Harris?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>Yeah. So, Nancy Harris lives in Moss Beach, which is about 25 miles away. It’s on the coast. And she brought in this magic bullet blender.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Harris: \u003c/b>And I’m so tired of buying a new one. I would love to fix this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Schmitt: \u003c/b>All right, let’s see. I’ve worked on one of the bigger ones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>This was actually the fourth magic bullet blender that she’s owned. As she walked in, she was matched with this volunteer named Alex Schmitt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>And Alex Schmitt lives in the county. Works in software. Says he likes to tinker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Schmitt: \u003c/b>There is one of these that the tabs may have broken off. And it looks like there may be jams. Oh. So.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>So, Nancy basically described the problem. When she plugs it in, the motor of the blender just starts whirring immediately, and she can’t get it to turn off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Harris: \u003c/b>When you’ve got it plugged in, it’s supposed to not immediately start, but start when you put the top on and screw it and you’re ready to go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>Alex says, okay, well, let’s let’s take a look. And within a few minutes, really, he diagnoses the problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Schmitt: \u003c/b>So now the question is, will it spin the way that you’re having the issue with. Yeah it will. Okay. You mentioned it leaks. Yes. So whatever whatever leaked in there has sort of gummed up these plastic elements that depress the switch on the bottom to the point that they got stuck on the lower end. And so it was always on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>So the all of the gunk, all of the smoothie and coffee and all the things that Nancy Harris has blended over the past few years has sort of seeped down into this switch that activates the motor. So it was actually diagnosed really quickly and simply.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Schmitt: \u003c/b>And that would do it for you. But the big thing is cleaning, and I’m guessing we have some Q-tips and some alcohol that we can work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>Okay. Did she get it fixed?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>Yeah. So it took her and Alex Schmitt about an hour to fix the blender, and it did end up getting fixed. Basically, it just needed to be cleaned. They really just went in there with cotton swabs and rubbing alcohol and sort of freed up all the sticky stuff that was making the motor stuck in the on position. They even found like a small family of bugs living in the motor. So there’s all these little discoveries that they make along the way. And.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>Well, what happened when Nancy and Alex got the magic bullet working again?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>As Nancy Harris walked out with her fixed to working magic bullet blender, volunteers took the magic bullet blender, held it aloft and yelled, you know, magic bullet blender fixed. Nancy Harris, she said she was overjoyed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Harris: \u003c/b>We fixed something that had been broken and driving me crazy for at least a year and a half. It just saved me a lot of time and energy, and I learned how to fix it myself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>You know, you could really see this, like, sort of contagious look of excitement and happiness. And that’s kind of shared by the whole room when you know something gets fixed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Harris: \u003c/b>It’s not saves you, what, 100, $200 every couple of years when this happens again, I’m really, really, really happy about it. And I feel very empowered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>Coming up, how exactly have manufacturers made it harder for us to fix our own stuff? Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>It does for some reason, also feel like a thing of the past. Like this idea that we as consumers can fix things ourselves. Like, I mean, I’m just thinking also about my partner’s laptop, which he’s been trying to get fixed for like the past two weeks. And at this point he’s like, God, I should just buy a new laptop at this point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>Yeah. I mean, what you’re talking about is what’s called a repair monopoly. Basically, a manufacturer will, you know, not make their parts or tools or information necessary to repair their item accessible to consumers, basically forcing people to have to go to them to, get their thing repaired. Some companies will use, like, proprietary screw heads to put their devices together, or they’re not designed to be serviced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>There’s even something called parts pairing with electronics, where parts are paired to the serial number of your, say, computer. And if you put in a different part, it will throw an error code when you know you try to turn it back on. There’s also this idea of planned obsolescence, right, where, you know, companies are basically making things to break because it’s more profitable for them to sell you something new as opposed to have you repair it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>So, you know, manufacturers make it harder to repair their things, which means that your local shop can’t repair them. So then there’s, you know, these shops go out of business, and pretty soon the only place you can get the thing repaired is the company that made it. They can charge whatever they want, they can take as long as they want, or they can tell you it’s not able to be repaired, even if maybe it is, and force you to buy a new one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>Well, how then is all have people actually tried to combat this disposable culture, this culture of buying new? On a larger scale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>Over the past decade, really? And earlier than that as well, we’ve started to see this rise of what’s called the right to repair movement. And basically, in a nutshell, right to repair says if you bought an item, you have the right to repair it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>And tell me what that has looked like in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>So we’re seeing a lot of people interested at the community level in repairing their own things, but it’s actually translated into a movement in state governments to put this kind of legislation on the books. So here in California last year, there was a law passed, and it’s basically a right to repair law goes into effect July 1st this year. And so it changed how manufacturers have to make repair accessible basically to the public.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>Right now, consumers in California are protected by this thing called the song Beverly Consumer Warranty Act. And basically that says that if a manufacturer makes an implied or expressed warranty on a product, then they need to make the parts, tools, and information necessary to repair that item available for a certain amount of years after the last model is produced, depending on how much that item costs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>This new California law is really moving that forward. So this California law applies to appliances and electronics, and it basically says that if an item cost between $50 and 9999, then the manufacturer has to make the parts, tools and information necessary to repair that item available for three years after the last production date of the model. If that item is more than 9999, then the manufacturer needs to make the parts, tools, and information available for seven years after the last production date.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>There’s a lot of hope in the right to repair movement that with a state like California passing a right to repair law, that it’s really going to build momentum in the in the nationwide right to repair movement. And we’re starting to see that this year. So far, 24 states are considering right to repair legislation. And that’s just at the last count.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>So it sounds like this law is really about giving people the tools to fix things themselves. Was there any pushback on this law?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>Yeah. I mean, writer repair gets a lot of pushback, and it’s mostly from, you know, big electronics companies like Apple. And then you have ag equipment companies like John Deere have historically pushed back against right to repair legislation. Apple lobbied heavily against this law and then came on in support of it at the last second, when they saw that it had basically, a guaranteed chance of passing or that it was going to pass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>Coming back to the Fixit clinic that you went to in Redwood City. I imagine we’re going to see more of these kinds of clinics. In other cities, it seems like there’s already a lot of interest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>Yeah, I mean, it’s it’s definitely possible. The San Mateo County Office of Sustainability is partnering with the library system there to bring a different fix it clinic every month to different libraries in the county. Fix it clinic also has a presence on on the social platform discord. Have hundreds of members on that platform. And the founder of Fix It clinic, Peter Mui:, actually told me that they have people in Africa or Europe and spread out all throughout the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Mui: \u003c/b>So we basically, during the pandemic, launched a Global Fixers server on discord that allowed us to extend repair to anybody on the planet who has an internet connection and can get on discord.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>I spoke with a representative from the San Mateo County Office of Sustainability, and she said that basically their demand is far exceeding capacity. There’s a ton of interest in these kinds of events throughout San Mateo County. And as we’re seeing sort of throughout the nation in the world at this point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>Why do you think that is?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>I think as humans, really, we have this natural inclination to want to fix things. Peter Mui: would say that we are repairers at heart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Mui: \u003c/b>Because when that thing starts working again and they are the ones who fixed it, you know, it’s like Easter, you know, it’s really it’s a really wonderful feeling that we don’t want to deprive anybody of. You want to empower these people to be able to repair stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>I mean, personally, you know, I, I used to have an old pickup truck, and I actually replaced the clutch on my pickup truck one time, and I went to my mechanic friend and told him about the experience. And he said, you know, that’s a feeling you can’t buy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>Azul, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>You’re very welcome. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> That was Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman, a reporter for KQED, and Ericka Cruz Guevarra, host of the podcast, The Bay. If you like what you heard, check out more episodes on The Bay’s podcast feed. They are an awesome news-focused companion to your Bay Curious listening, a bit like The Daily, but for local news.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If this episode got you thinking you’d like to learn more about how to repair your own stuff, we’ve got an event for you. Next Thursday, March 14th, \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/live\">KQED is hosting a sustainable fashion event\u003c/a>. Experts will be on hand who will teach you how to mend your clothes and style them in new and exciting ways. We’ll put a link in our show notes or you can look for it at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/live\">kqed.org/live\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That episode was produced by Maria Esquinca, Alan Montecillo and Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Engineering support from Brendan Willard and Christopher Beale. The rest of the Bay Curious team includes Katrina Schwartz and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Hidden in the Oakland Hills Is An Outdoor Gallery of Murals",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The East Bay hills above Berkeley and Oakland are crisscrossed with beautiful hiking trails, and hidden along them are clues to the Bay Area’s past. In the trees near Leona Heights, there’s a clearing scattered with concrete walls. One of them is as big as a bus; others are small, like traffic barriers. All of them are painted with really good murals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Darrell Lavin came across them while hiking with his cousin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousbug]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It looks like it was some sort of a very significant structure many, many years ago,” he said. “And I can’t help but wonder, what’s the history of this? What was there, and what was it used for? It made me very curious.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It turns out that the answer to Lavin’s question has a lot to do with… rocks. So, we asked a geologist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Andrew Alden is a sprightly guy with a ponytail and gemstone earrings. He said in the late 1800s, when Bay Area cities were growing, people punctured the East Bay hills with quarries and mines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Crushed stone is a basic requirement of civilization,” he said. “You just need it for everything. You need it for railroad beds, you need it for building foundations, you need it to build harbors and wharves.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The concrete walls still visible today \u003ca href=\"https://ia801601.us.archive.org/9/items/38calicturalindu00auburich/38calicturalindu00auburich.pdf\">were part of the workings of the Leona Heights Quarry\u003c/a>, he said, which was where Merritt College is today. Workers blasted rock from deep pits in the hills and loaded it onto a conveyor tram, which carried it down the hill to a train, where it was loaded onto freight cars and shipped out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11977321\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11977321\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/Conveyor-tram.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of a wooden trestle conveyor tram snaking its way up a wooded hill.\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1807\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/Conveyor-tram.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/Conveyor-tram-800x730.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/Conveyor-tram-1020x931.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/Conveyor-tram-160x146.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/Conveyor-tram-1536x1402.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/Conveyor-tram-1920x1752.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">This photograph from 1912 shows a tram that brought stone from the quarry down to the train tracks.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The tram was a half-mile-long conveyor belt running on a wooden trestle. Historical records suggest its machinery was housed in the concrete ruins Lavin asked about. Slots in the walls probably framed the wheels that turned the belt.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>A fateful fire\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>The tram helped make the whole rock quarry operation possible but would ultimately destroy it. In 1913, a fire broke out near its base and ignited the conveyor belt, which carried the flames up the hill. \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/999259004/\">An article in the Oakland Enquirer from Aug. 8th\u003c/a>, 1913, said the wooden trestle was “dry as tinder.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Stores of dynamite and powder in sheds in the path of the fire spread the blaze with great rapidity,” the article said. “Until long after midnight, the fire burned in the ravines of Leona Heights, to which blazing brands had been carried by the high wind. That no fatalities occurred was considered remarkable.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All the buildings and tools used in the quarry operation were incinerated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today, all that remains of the Leona Heights Quarry are the ruins of the conveyor tram that Darrell stumbled upon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The artists have adopted it,” Alden said. “And it belongs to the future as well as the past.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC3388391131&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>An unexpected art gallery\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>The concrete walls have been painted over many times by many artists. One of them is Pancho Pescador. He said he found this place by accident back in 1995 — not long after he moved to the United States — and was captivated by the murals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11977322\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11977322\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/Oakland-Leona-Heights-ruins-lead.jpg\" alt=\"A man in black hoodie stands center, around him are remnants of concrete walls painted with vibrant art.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/Oakland-Leona-Heights-ruins-lead.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/Oakland-Leona-Heights-ruins-lead-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/Oakland-Leona-Heights-ruins-lead-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/Oakland-Leona-Heights-ruins-lead-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/Oakland-Leona-Heights-ruins-lead-1536x864.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Artist Pancho Pescador stands between two of his pieces painted on the concrete ruins of the old Leona Heights Quarry. \u003ccite>(Katherine Monahan/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Graffiti art was still pretty new to Pescador at the time. He’d seen very little of it growing up in Chile \u003ca href=\"https://www.britannica.com/place/Chile/The-military-dictatorship-from-1973\">under the repressive dictatorship of Augusto Pinochet\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If you [got] caught painting in the street,” he said, “you may get disappeared or dead.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For many street artists of the day, only urgent political messages were worth that risk, Pescador said. His work reflects the intensity of those early experiences. He pointed out one of his murals: a figure with the head of a bird carrying a paint roller.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s the weapon,” Pescador said. “He’s a warrior because he’s carrying his weapon.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The biggest concrete wall in the clearing is about the size of a semitruck. On it, artists have painted a woman, an AC Transit bus and the word “Ghost” in vibrant colors. It’s a memorial to a local artist who passed away at a young age, Pescador explained.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is not going anywhere,” he said. “I doubt anybody’s going to paint over this. I’m not gonna do it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For him, these concrete ruins are a special place, different from any other graffiti site. He loves painting up in the trees, with time to do big, intricate pieces with lots of colors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I like decay,” he said. “And I like seeing my pieces getting old.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>The East Bay hills above Berkeley and Oakland are crisscrossed with beautiful hiking trails. Darrell Lavin, today’s question-asker, loves to explore them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Darrell Lavin:\u003c/b> My cousin lives right over in that area right near Leona Lodge. And so I go over there and hike with her all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>One day, they tried a trail he’d never been on before. Halfway up they came upon something unexpected.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Darrell Lavin:\u003c/b> It looks like it was some sort of a very significant structure many, many years ago. And it looks like there had to be some sort of a cabling system there to haul stuff up and down the hill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Darrell figured his cousin would know what these ruins were, but she had no idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Darrell Lavin:\u003c/b> And they’re all covered in graffiti. And the artwork is beautiful. And I can’t help but wonder, what’s the history of this, what was there and what was it used for?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Darrell’s question won a Bay Curious voting round, so today we’re hiking up to these ruins near Leona Canyon Regional Park… to learn what was there more than a hundred years ago. And we’ll find out a bit more about that beautiful artwork that Darrell described. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>KQED Reporter Katherine Monahan loves hiking and mysteries, so she was the perfect person to send on an expedition to find out the history of these ruins in the Oakland hills and how they’re being used now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Footsteps in the woods\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> I’ve been hiking around for half an hour, looking for these ruins, when I see a flash of bright pink peeking through the oak trees that line the trail. I duck under a branch . . . and enter a clearing scattered with concrete walls. One of them is as big as a bus; others are small, like traffic barriers. All of them are painted with \u003ci>really good\u003c/i> murals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Andrew Alden: \u003c/b>And they built it well because the concrete is still in great shape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> Andrew Alden, a geologist and local historian, meets me here. He’s a sprightly guy with a ponytail and gemstone earrings. He points out a clue to why these ruins are here. It’s a reddish rock, about the size of a mailbox.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Andrew Alden: \u003c/b>I think it’s just beautiful by itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> What is it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Andrew Alden: \u003c/b>It started out as volcanic ash on the seafloor. It got involved in a lot of tectonic action, and it changed the rock into this very hard light-colored, very strong material that gets this honey-colored orange and red coating on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Andrew Alden: \u003c/b>Geologists used to call it the Leona laterite. Now we just call it Leona Volcanic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> Alden says that in the late 1800s, when Bay Area cities were growing, rock like this was very much in demand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Andrew Alden: \u003c/b>Crushed stone is a basic requirement of civilization. You just need it for everything. You need it for railroad beds, you need it for building foundations, you need it to build harbors and wharves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> People punctured the East Bay hills with mines and quarries, looking for pyrite, sulfur, gold, though they didn’t really find any, and just rock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Andrew Alden: \u003c/b>They started quarries wherever the rock was good just to make money from these hills.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> The ruins we’re looking at were part of the workings of the Leona Heights Quarry, says Alden, which was where Merritt College is today. Workers dynamited rock from pits and loaded it onto a conveyor tram leading down the hill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Andrew Alden: \u003c/b>It would send stone down to the electric train tracks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> It was a half-mile-long conveyor belt running on a wooden trestle. It looked kind of like an old-fashioned roller coaster. Historical records suggest its machinery was housed right here in this concrete. Slots in the walls probably framed the wheels that turned the belt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> This tram helped make the whole operation possible but would ultimately destroy it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Reading Newspaper Report: \u003c/b>Oakland Enquirer, Aug. 8th, 1913 — Leona Fire Causes Big Loss, Town Is Menaced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> A fire broke out near the base of the tram and ignited the conveyor belt, which carried the flames up the hill. The newspaper said the wooden trestle was “dry as tinder.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Reading Newspaper Report: \u003c/b>Stores of dynamite and powder in sheds in the path of the fire spread the blaze with great rapidity. Until long after midnight the fires burned in the ravines of Leona Heights, to which blazing brands had been carried by the high wind. That no fatalities occurred was considered remarkable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> All the buildings and tools were incinerated, a quarter million dollar loss and a huge blow to the quarry. By the 1930s, it showed up in the papers mainly as a place where convicts hid out or kids got lost. Here’s Andrew Alden again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Andrew Alden: \u003c/b>Cheaper stone arose out of town, you know, quarries and cities can’t really coexist. Oakland has spread out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> Eventually, the quarry was filled in and is now a Merritt College parking lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Andrew Alden: \u003c/b>There used to be a great big pit there they called Devil’s Punchbowl and all the local kids would get in trouble there. They’d push old cars into it and throw dynamite sticks and that kind of thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> And what’s left of the conveyor tram …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Andrew Alden: \u003c/b>As you see, the artists have adopted it. And it belongs to the future as well as the past.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Modern music transition\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> The concrete walls here have been painted over many times by many artists. One of them has been coming here for almost thirty years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pancho Pescador: \u003c/b>My name is Pancho Pescador. I’m originally from Chile. I always painted since I was a kid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> He says he found this place by accident back in 1995, not long after he moved to the United States. He was out hiking by himself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pancho Pescador: \u003c/b>And I remember coming here and seeing the wall. Unexpected, because you’re in the middle of the forest and then you find all these ruins.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> They had murals on them even then.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pancho Pescador: \u003c/b>I was like, “What? Who paint this? This is so cool. Oh, he did it with spray paint?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> Graffiti art was still pretty new to Pescador at the time. He’d seen very little of it growing up in Chile.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pancho Pescador: \u003c/b>Because we have a dictatorship, so it was more repression. You know, if you get caught painting in the street, you may get disappeared or, or dead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> That was during the regime of Augusto Pinochet, who came to power in 1973 following a U.S.-backed coup. Through the 70s and 80s, thousands of Chileans disappeared or were killed under his rule, and almost 40,000 were held as political prisoners. Pescador says street artists of the day restricted themselves to political messages.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pancho Pescador: \u003c/b>They didn’t write their name, you know, like, “Oh, Pancho was here” or, you know, like, they’re risking their life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> He shows me one of his pieces, a larger-than-life self-portrait, on a decaying chunk of concrete wall. It’s a figure with the head of a bird carrying a paint roller.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pancho Pescador: \u003c/b>That’s the weapon. You know, like, the weapon doesn’t have to be an M16. It could be a paint roller, so he’s a warrior because he’s carrying his weapon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> The painting has been here for about two years, which Pescador says is a long life for a piece up here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pancho Pescador: \u003c/b>You paint here, you know that you’re gonna get covered. That’s part of the game. It’s no crying, like, “Oh, you paint over me?” No, this is not the place, you know, you paint here, you know what’s going to happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> But there are exceptions. On the biggest wall — which is about the size of a semitruck — is a long, vibrant painting of a woman, and an AC Transit bus, and the word “Ghost.” Pescador explains it’s a memorial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pancho Pescador: \u003c/b>A tribute to Ghost which was a writer from Oakland that unfortunately passed at a very young age, and some of her friends and homies did this piece to honor her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> He says this piece will last because artists won’t normally cover up a memorial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pancho Pescador: \u003c/b>This is not going anywhere. I doubt anybody’s going to paint over this. I’m not gonna do it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> He says this is a special place, different from your average graffiti site. Up here in the trees, you have time to do big, intricate pieces with lots of colors. It’s not like painting downtown, where you might get caught. And the hike screens out a lot of artists.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pancho Pescador: \u003c/b>You gotta be in shape. Because you’re gonna carry your backpack full of paint, probably a couple gallons of paint, roller, all the tools, water, it gets heavy. So you know, like, you need a certain special energy to do it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> Pescador says he loves painting up in these abandoned ruins.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pancho Pescador: \u003c/b>I like decay. And I like seeing my pieces getting old. I find beauty on that, a place that could be dark. And you know when you paint it, you change the energy. You do all the work for that, you know, like you see the place change, and it’s like, “Oh, yeah!” and then people appreciate it, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> Through over a century of massive change around it, this place has adapted from rock quarry to outdoor art gallery. Who knows what it may become next or what it will see in the next century?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>That was KQED’s Katherine Monahan. Thanks to Darrell Lavin for asking the question we answered today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>This Saturday, March 2 is one of my favorite events of the year. It’s the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/event/3954\">Night of Ideas at San Francisco Public Library’s Main Branch\u003c/a>. If you haven’t been … know this: it’s a mashup of artists, leading thinkers and cultural organizations all thinking about the future — and how city life can be more just, culturally vibrant, and sustainable. Bay Curious will be there this year, hanging out in the bookmobile. Stop by to share your personal transit tales with us and the podcast Muni Diaries. We’re teaming up to collect your stories and I can’t wait to hear what you might have for us. Find details and register for free at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/events\">KQED.org/Live\u003c/a>. I’ll see you there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>If you enjoy Bay Curious, tell another podcast-loving friend all about us, please! Word of mouth is one of the best ways for us to grow the show. Thank you!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia-Allen Price. Additional support from Alex Gonzalez, Dan Brekke, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family. Have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"excerpt": "Hike near Leona Heights in Oakland, and you might come across vibrant graffiti art painted on the concrete remnants of an old conveyor tram that transported rock down the hill.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The East Bay hills above Berkeley and Oakland are crisscrossed with beautiful hiking trails, and hidden along them are clues to the Bay Area’s past. In the trees near Leona Heights, there’s a clearing scattered with concrete walls. One of them is as big as a bus; others are small, like traffic barriers. All of them are painted with really good murals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Darrell Lavin came across them while hiking with his cousin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n What do you wonder about the Bay Area, its culture or people that you want KQED to investigate?\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Ask Bay Curious.\u003c/a>\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It looks like it was some sort of a very significant structure many, many years ago,” he said. “And I can’t help but wonder, what’s the history of this? What was there, and what was it used for? It made me very curious.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It turns out that the answer to Lavin’s question has a lot to do with… rocks. So, we asked a geologist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Andrew Alden is a sprightly guy with a ponytail and gemstone earrings. He said in the late 1800s, when Bay Area cities were growing, people punctured the East Bay hills with quarries and mines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Crushed stone is a basic requirement of civilization,” he said. “You just need it for everything. You need it for railroad beds, you need it for building foundations, you need it to build harbors and wharves.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The concrete walls still visible today \u003ca href=\"https://ia801601.us.archive.org/9/items/38calicturalindu00auburich/38calicturalindu00auburich.pdf\">were part of the workings of the Leona Heights Quarry\u003c/a>, he said, which was where Merritt College is today. Workers blasted rock from deep pits in the hills and loaded it onto a conveyor tram, which carried it down the hill to a train, where it was loaded onto freight cars and shipped out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11977321\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11977321\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/Conveyor-tram.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of a wooden trestle conveyor tram snaking its way up a wooded hill.\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1807\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/Conveyor-tram.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/Conveyor-tram-800x730.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/Conveyor-tram-1020x931.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/Conveyor-tram-160x146.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/Conveyor-tram-1536x1402.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/Conveyor-tram-1920x1752.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">This photograph from 1912 shows a tram that brought stone from the quarry down to the train tracks.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The tram was a half-mile-long conveyor belt running on a wooden trestle. Historical records suggest its machinery was housed in the concrete ruins Lavin asked about. Slots in the walls probably framed the wheels that turned the belt.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>A fateful fire\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>The tram helped make the whole rock quarry operation possible but would ultimately destroy it. In 1913, a fire broke out near its base and ignited the conveyor belt, which carried the flames up the hill. \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/999259004/\">An article in the Oakland Enquirer from Aug. 8th\u003c/a>, 1913, said the wooden trestle was “dry as tinder.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Stores of dynamite and powder in sheds in the path of the fire spread the blaze with great rapidity,” the article said. “Until long after midnight, the fire burned in the ravines of Leona Heights, to which blazing brands had been carried by the high wind. That no fatalities occurred was considered remarkable.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All the buildings and tools used in the quarry operation were incinerated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today, all that remains of the Leona Heights Quarry are the ruins of the conveyor tram that Darrell stumbled upon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The artists have adopted it,” Alden said. “And it belongs to the future as well as the past.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC3388391131&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>An unexpected art gallery\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>The concrete walls have been painted over many times by many artists. One of them is Pancho Pescador. He said he found this place by accident back in 1995 — not long after he moved to the United States — and was captivated by the murals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11977322\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11977322\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/Oakland-Leona-Heights-ruins-lead.jpg\" alt=\"A man in black hoodie stands center, around him are remnants of concrete walls painted with vibrant art.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/Oakland-Leona-Heights-ruins-lead.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/Oakland-Leona-Heights-ruins-lead-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/Oakland-Leona-Heights-ruins-lead-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/Oakland-Leona-Heights-ruins-lead-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/Oakland-Leona-Heights-ruins-lead-1536x864.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Artist Pancho Pescador stands between two of his pieces painted on the concrete ruins of the old Leona Heights Quarry. \u003ccite>(Katherine Monahan/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Graffiti art was still pretty new to Pescador at the time. He’d seen very little of it growing up in Chile \u003ca href=\"https://www.britannica.com/place/Chile/The-military-dictatorship-from-1973\">under the repressive dictatorship of Augusto Pinochet\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If you [got] caught painting in the street,” he said, “you may get disappeared or dead.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For many street artists of the day, only urgent political messages were worth that risk, Pescador said. His work reflects the intensity of those early experiences. He pointed out one of his murals: a figure with the head of a bird carrying a paint roller.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s the weapon,” Pescador said. “He’s a warrior because he’s carrying his weapon.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The biggest concrete wall in the clearing is about the size of a semitruck. On it, artists have painted a woman, an AC Transit bus and the word “Ghost” in vibrant colors. It’s a memorial to a local artist who passed away at a young age, Pescador explained.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is not going anywhere,” he said. “I doubt anybody’s going to paint over this. I’m not gonna do it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For him, these concrete ruins are a special place, different from any other graffiti site. He loves painting up in the trees, with time to do big, intricate pieces with lots of colors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I like decay,” he said. “And I like seeing my pieces getting old.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>The East Bay hills above Berkeley and Oakland are crisscrossed with beautiful hiking trails. Darrell Lavin, today’s question-asker, loves to explore them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Darrell Lavin:\u003c/b> My cousin lives right over in that area right near Leona Lodge. And so I go over there and hike with her all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>One day, they tried a trail he’d never been on before. Halfway up they came upon something unexpected.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Darrell Lavin:\u003c/b> It looks like it was some sort of a very significant structure many, many years ago. And it looks like there had to be some sort of a cabling system there to haul stuff up and down the hill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Darrell figured his cousin would know what these ruins were, but she had no idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Darrell Lavin:\u003c/b> And they’re all covered in graffiti. And the artwork is beautiful. And I can’t help but wonder, what’s the history of this, what was there and what was it used for?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Darrell’s question won a Bay Curious voting round, so today we’re hiking up to these ruins near Leona Canyon Regional Park… to learn what was there more than a hundred years ago. And we’ll find out a bit more about that beautiful artwork that Darrell described. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>KQED Reporter Katherine Monahan loves hiking and mysteries, so she was the perfect person to send on an expedition to find out the history of these ruins in the Oakland hills and how they’re being used now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Footsteps in the woods\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> I’ve been hiking around for half an hour, looking for these ruins, when I see a flash of bright pink peeking through the oak trees that line the trail. I duck under a branch . . . and enter a clearing scattered with concrete walls. One of them is as big as a bus; others are small, like traffic barriers. All of them are painted with \u003ci>really good\u003c/i> murals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Andrew Alden: \u003c/b>And they built it well because the concrete is still in great shape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> Andrew Alden, a geologist and local historian, meets me here. He’s a sprightly guy with a ponytail and gemstone earrings. He points out a clue to why these ruins are here. It’s a reddish rock, about the size of a mailbox.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Andrew Alden: \u003c/b>I think it’s just beautiful by itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> What is it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Andrew Alden: \u003c/b>It started out as volcanic ash on the seafloor. It got involved in a lot of tectonic action, and it changed the rock into this very hard light-colored, very strong material that gets this honey-colored orange and red coating on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Andrew Alden: \u003c/b>Geologists used to call it the Leona laterite. Now we just call it Leona Volcanic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> Alden says that in the late 1800s, when Bay Area cities were growing, rock like this was very much in demand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Andrew Alden: \u003c/b>Crushed stone is a basic requirement of civilization. You just need it for everything. You need it for railroad beds, you need it for building foundations, you need it to build harbors and wharves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> People punctured the East Bay hills with mines and quarries, looking for pyrite, sulfur, gold, though they didn’t really find any, and just rock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Andrew Alden: \u003c/b>They started quarries wherever the rock was good just to make money from these hills.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> The ruins we’re looking at were part of the workings of the Leona Heights Quarry, says Alden, which was where Merritt College is today. Workers dynamited rock from pits and loaded it onto a conveyor tram leading down the hill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Andrew Alden: \u003c/b>It would send stone down to the electric train tracks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> It was a half-mile-long conveyor belt running on a wooden trestle. It looked kind of like an old-fashioned roller coaster. Historical records suggest its machinery was housed right here in this concrete. Slots in the walls probably framed the wheels that turned the belt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> This tram helped make the whole operation possible but would ultimately destroy it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Reading Newspaper Report: \u003c/b>Oakland Enquirer, Aug. 8th, 1913 — Leona Fire Causes Big Loss, Town Is Menaced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> A fire broke out near the base of the tram and ignited the conveyor belt, which carried the flames up the hill. The newspaper said the wooden trestle was “dry as tinder.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Reading Newspaper Report: \u003c/b>Stores of dynamite and powder in sheds in the path of the fire spread the blaze with great rapidity. Until long after midnight the fires burned in the ravines of Leona Heights, to which blazing brands had been carried by the high wind. That no fatalities occurred was considered remarkable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> All the buildings and tools were incinerated, a quarter million dollar loss and a huge blow to the quarry. By the 1930s, it showed up in the papers mainly as a place where convicts hid out or kids got lost. Here’s Andrew Alden again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Andrew Alden: \u003c/b>Cheaper stone arose out of town, you know, quarries and cities can’t really coexist. Oakland has spread out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> Eventually, the quarry was filled in and is now a Merritt College parking lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Andrew Alden: \u003c/b>There used to be a great big pit there they called Devil’s Punchbowl and all the local kids would get in trouble there. They’d push old cars into it and throw dynamite sticks and that kind of thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> And what’s left of the conveyor tram …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Andrew Alden: \u003c/b>As you see, the artists have adopted it. And it belongs to the future as well as the past.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Modern music transition\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> The concrete walls here have been painted over many times by many artists. One of them has been coming here for almost thirty years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pancho Pescador: \u003c/b>My name is Pancho Pescador. I’m originally from Chile. I always painted since I was a kid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> He says he found this place by accident back in 1995, not long after he moved to the United States. He was out hiking by himself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pancho Pescador: \u003c/b>And I remember coming here and seeing the wall. Unexpected, because you’re in the middle of the forest and then you find all these ruins.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> They had murals on them even then.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pancho Pescador: \u003c/b>I was like, “What? Who paint this? This is so cool. Oh, he did it with spray paint?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> Graffiti art was still pretty new to Pescador at the time. He’d seen very little of it growing up in Chile.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pancho Pescador: \u003c/b>Because we have a dictatorship, so it was more repression. You know, if you get caught painting in the street, you may get disappeared or, or dead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> That was during the regime of Augusto Pinochet, who came to power in 1973 following a U.S.-backed coup. Through the 70s and 80s, thousands of Chileans disappeared or were killed under his rule, and almost 40,000 were held as political prisoners. Pescador says street artists of the day restricted themselves to political messages.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pancho Pescador: \u003c/b>They didn’t write their name, you know, like, “Oh, Pancho was here” or, you know, like, they’re risking their life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> He shows me one of his pieces, a larger-than-life self-portrait, on a decaying chunk of concrete wall. It’s a figure with the head of a bird carrying a paint roller.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pancho Pescador: \u003c/b>That’s the weapon. You know, like, the weapon doesn’t have to be an M16. It could be a paint roller, so he’s a warrior because he’s carrying his weapon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> The painting has been here for about two years, which Pescador says is a long life for a piece up here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pancho Pescador: \u003c/b>You paint here, you know that you’re gonna get covered. That’s part of the game. It’s no crying, like, “Oh, you paint over me?” No, this is not the place, you know, you paint here, you know what’s going to happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> But there are exceptions. On the biggest wall — which is about the size of a semitruck — is a long, vibrant painting of a woman, and an AC Transit bus, and the word “Ghost.” Pescador explains it’s a memorial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pancho Pescador: \u003c/b>A tribute to Ghost which was a writer from Oakland that unfortunately passed at a very young age, and some of her friends and homies did this piece to honor her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> He says this piece will last because artists won’t normally cover up a memorial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pancho Pescador: \u003c/b>This is not going anywhere. I doubt anybody’s going to paint over this. I’m not gonna do it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> He says this is a special place, different from your average graffiti site. Up here in the trees, you have time to do big, intricate pieces with lots of colors. It’s not like painting downtown, where you might get caught. And the hike screens out a lot of artists.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pancho Pescador: \u003c/b>You gotta be in shape. Because you’re gonna carry your backpack full of paint, probably a couple gallons of paint, roller, all the tools, water, it gets heavy. So you know, like, you need a certain special energy to do it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> Pescador says he loves painting up in these abandoned ruins.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pancho Pescador: \u003c/b>I like decay. And I like seeing my pieces getting old. I find beauty on that, a place that could be dark. And you know when you paint it, you change the energy. You do all the work for that, you know, like you see the place change, and it’s like, “Oh, yeah!” and then people appreciate it, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> Through over a century of massive change around it, this place has adapted from rock quarry to outdoor art gallery. Who knows what it may become next or what it will see in the next century?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>That was KQED’s Katherine Monahan. Thanks to Darrell Lavin for asking the question we answered today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>This Saturday, March 2 is one of my favorite events of the year. It’s the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/event/3954\">Night of Ideas at San Francisco Public Library’s Main Branch\u003c/a>. If you haven’t been … know this: it’s a mashup of artists, leading thinkers and cultural organizations all thinking about the future — and how city life can be more just, culturally vibrant, and sustainable. Bay Curious will be there this year, hanging out in the bookmobile. Stop by to share your personal transit tales with us and the podcast Muni Diaries. We’re teaming up to collect your stories and I can’t wait to hear what you might have for us. Find details and register for free at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/events\">KQED.org/Live\u003c/a>. I’ll see you there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>If you enjoy Bay Curious, tell another podcast-loving friend all about us, please! Word of mouth is one of the best ways for us to grow the show. Thank you!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia-Allen Price. Additional support from Alex Gonzalez, Dan Brekke, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family. Have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Is the SMART Train Easing Highway 101 Traffic in Marin and Sonoma?",
"headTitle": "Is the SMART Train Easing Highway 101 Traffic in Marin and Sonoma? | KQED",
"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Driving to work every morning on congested roads is no one’s idea of a good time. And the commute on Highway 101 through Sonoma and Marin counties can be an especially laborious journey during mid-week rush hour. In an attempt to relieve congestion, provide greener transportation options and offer more ways for people to travel, the Sonoma-Marin Area Rail Transit (SMART) train opened its first stations in 2017. Since then, it has been building out its system, starting at the southern terminus of Larkspur. Eventually, it will reach all the way to Cloverdale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although the train has been in operation for several years now, this train service is still under the radar for a lot of Bay Area residents. Still, on a recent Thursday morning, the Marin and Sonoma residents who rode the train were enthusiastic about the service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I take it every single day that I can because it’s just so much quicker,” said Kelly Smith, who lives in Novato and works in San Rafael. “It’s economical. I get to chat with people on the train. It’s much more relaxing. It’s my favorite way to travel.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Other riders agreed that riding the train is much more pleasant than slogging through traffic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This train corridor, you feel like you’re in Europe,” Scott Warner said. “My health is better, and my mind is better when I get to the office, not having to deal with the jam on the 101.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11976622\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11976622\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1321843157.jpg\" alt=\"The photo is taken inside the train looking out. Inside are seats in siloutte. Outside is a lush marshland with green grass poking out of a shallow body of water. In the distance a yellow hillside with dry grass rises above the marsh.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1226\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1321843157.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1321843157-800x511.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1321843157-1020x651.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1321843157-160x102.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1321843157-1536x981.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The views over the marshlands aboard the SMART train as it travels from the Petaluma train station en route to the San Rafael station. \u003ccite>(Photo By Michael Macor/The San Francisco Chronicle via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But do these happy riders mean the SMART train is relieving congestion on Highway 101? That’s what Bay Curious listener Brian Auger, who lives in Fairfax, really wants to know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s a good question, but also a tricky time to answer because in 2024, just a few years after the coronavirus pandemic, traffic and commute patterns have changed a lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part three of the Bay Curious transportation episode. Listen to the entire episode below.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC3450871318&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The short answer\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>A Caltrans spokesperson said there is 40% less traffic on US-101 between Larkspur, in Marin, and Sonoma Airport Blvd — an approximate location for where the SMART train line currently ends — than there was in 2019. But those numbers reflect driving at all times of the day and all days of the week, so they are likely more a product of hybrid work environments than anything else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Calendar year 2023, SMART carried over 750,000 riders,” SMART General Manager Eddy Cumins said. “The average trip length of those riders is 22.2 miles. So, if you do that math, that equates to 16.6 million passenger miles on the train.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That sounds like a lot, but to give that number more context, Caltrans said the total annual vehicle miles traveled between Larkspur and Airport Blvd is more than 1.8 billion. In comparison, the miles traveled on SMART represent only the tiniest fraction of all that travel. And for even further context, SMART’s yearly ridership is close to the number of passengers BART carried each week in 2023.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In short, right now, SMART is not making a very big dent in traffic on US-101.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The longer answer\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The SMART train has only been around for a few years, most of them during or directly after the COVID-19 pandemic, which upended ridership and decimated budgets for transit agencies around the region. SMART is actually the only local transit agency to see an increase in ridership during 2023 as compared to 2019 (the last full year before the pandemic).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s also worth considering that the system isn’t fully built yet. Transit systems tend to become more useful the longer they’re around. A system like BART has been operating since the 1970s, and other infrastructure has been built around it. Employers have offices near BART stations, other transit agencies provide links to BART, and easy train access can even drive home prices. SMART hasn’t been around long enough to see much of this effect yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are a small system,” Cumins acknowledged. “We’re not BART. We’re not Caltrain. We have to focus on meeting the needs of the communities we serve.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To do that, Cumins and his colleagues have been holding listening sessions with community members in Marin and Sonoma to learn how SMART can better serve riders. Right now, the most popular station is Downtown Petaluma and many riders get off in San Rafael or Larkspur. And people who travel on the train with their bikes have been consistent riders, even during the pandemic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We noticed a significant increase in bicycle boardings,” Cumins said. “We had some flip seats on the side of the train. We removed those seats in order to create additional bicycle parking.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They’ve also increased service in the middle of the day, held fare prices low and created a new type of monthly commuter pass that reflects the reality of hybrid work schedules.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And immediately, we saw a 28% increase in monthly passes,” Cumins said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then there were more specific needs, like local teachers expressing the need for transportation when taking school kids on field trips. Cumins said they looked at train capacity and saw they might be able to accommodate this request.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Off-peak hours, when these kids want to travel, we have capacity there,” he said. “And so between nine and two, they can ride. So we’re now offering free field trips, too, for K-12 students. There was a field trip last week and the kids all wrote us letters thanking the SMART train. And so that’s beautiful.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11976625\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11976625\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/IMG_4214.jpeg\" alt=\"A green SMART train car sits at a station platform. The train is on the right side, and the platform is on the left. The platform has a few passengers on it in the distance.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/IMG_4214.jpeg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/IMG_4214-800x600.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/IMG_4214-1020x765.jpeg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/IMG_4214-160x120.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/IMG_4214-1536x1152.jpeg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The SMART train began operations in 2017 and continues to expand. \u003ccite>(Paul Lancour/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Interestingly, the ridership of SMART doesn’t follow normal commute pattern expectations. While 60% of rides are in the southern direction in the morning — what you might expect — a full 40% are northbound. Students might explain some of those anomalies. Cumins said about 15% of riders on SMART trains are students heading to school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s nice, there’s no problems,” said high school student Louie. “When we come home, it doesn’t feel that crowded. It’s mostly in the morning.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SMART is currently building the Windsor station and has several bike lanes under construction or in the planning phase as well. Part of the agency’s mission is to build out the bike path infrastructure in the region at the same time as it builds the rails, so when the system is complete, it should be a bonanza of rails and trails for residents and visitors alike.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The one thing [riders] always say is, ‘I cannot believe how clean the train is,’” Cumins said. “The other thing that I hear from people who ride is that the area between Petaluma and Novato may be the most beautiful place on Earth, and it’s a place that you can’t get to unless you’re on the train.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Every weekday morning, millions of us Bay Area residents get out of our cozy beds … and embark on mystifying migration unlike any other on planet Earth. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music reminiscent of a nature documentary begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right heading out the door. It is 7:00 on the nose. The sun will not rise for another 20 minutes or so.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Paul Lancour, one of my colleagues at KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Leaving my home in Novato. I’m going to make the short drive to the downtown Novato SMART train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He’s setting off on a daily ritual so many of us humans make. Not for food or water exactly, like you might expect from the rest of the animal kingdom, but … for work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music shift to hurried 1950s-era productivity music\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m talking about our daily commute, of course. Today, we’ve asked Paul to trade in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">his \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">daily commute by car into KQED’s offices in San Francisco for a public transit bonanza. Along the way, he’ll be riding the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">somewhat\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">-new SMART train through Marin County. SMART stands for Sonoma-Marin Area Rail Transit, by the way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why are we sending him on this mission? To answer this question from a listener…\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Brian Auger: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is Brian Auger. My question is has the North Bay SMART train had any actual impact on relieving traffic on Highway 101?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be checking in with Paul throughout the episode as he makes his way to the KQED offices to deliver the answer for Brian … but along the way, we’ll answer two other commuter questions. Listener Laurel Hetchinova thinks drivers have gotten a little out of control recently.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurel Hetchinova: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are drivers around here maybe more aggressive lately, or is it maybe just me?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Her question won a recent Bay Curious public voting round. And then finally, is there an antidote to all this commuting misery floating on the Bay? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, This is Lee from Berkeley. Does San Francisco finally have a water taxi service?\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve got a full episode of good stuff just ahead on Bay Curious. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. And oh, it looks like Paul has made it to the Novato Downtown SMART train station…\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Train bell and ambi of the train station fades in\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (in scene): (\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Beep!) That’s me tapping into the fare station here. Train departing at 7:33. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Voice over speaker on train says:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Next station, Larkspur. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And he’s off! Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re tackling some of your transit questions today as Paul makes his journey from his Novato home to KQED’s offices in San Francisco. Looks like his ride on the SMART train is complete, and he’s onto the next leg of his journey an hour and a half after it began.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the Larkspur ferry getting ready to depart at 8:29. What a lovely morning. Certainly beats sitting in traffic.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound of ferry boat pulling away from dock\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll learn soon if the SMART train is making a dent in traffic on Highway 101. But one thing we know Paul won’t be contending with today is aggressive drivers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Curious music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Our listener, Laurel, feels like the roadways here have gotten spicier than they once were…\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Laurel Hetchinova: \u003c/b>It feels kind of like every time we go out, there are, I don’t know, maybe like half a dozen going 90 to 100 and just weaving in between everybody else.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I remember that it was kind of like that during the initial weeks of shelter-in-place when fewer cars were out on the road but it feels like it’s still happening even though traffic’s back to normal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To help us figure out what’s what, we’ve got Dan Brekke in the studio today. He’s the reporter and editor of In-transit KQED’s daily blog about how we get around. Welcome, Dan. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, Olivia.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First off, Dan, can you tell us why the pandemic was such a watershed moment on our streets and highways?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, our reality changed overnight from having very crowded roads to much less crowded roads. And so that invited a different kind of behavior. Especially a lot more speeding than we’d ever seen before. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m with Laurel. It seems like a lot of dangerous behaviors that picked up during the pandemic and then just have never went away. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it turns out there’s a little survey data out there that backs up our impressions. There’s a place at UC Berkeley called the Safe Transportation Research and Education Center, or SafeTREC, and they participate in a yearly survey on what drivers feel they’re seeing on the road. And one of the questions that the survey asks is, “Since the onset of the Covid 19 pandemic, what is the biggest change in behaviors you have noticed from drivers?” And statewide the most common answer was aggressive driving and road rage, with speeding coming in a close second. So for a lot of folks, at the very least, we’re perceiving that these things are getting worse. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. But let’s look at reality. Does the California Highway Patrol have any kind of data to support or refute what so many of us are seeing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The officer I talked to at the Golden Gate division of the CHP, Andrew Barkley, said that anecdotally, and this is where the CHP comes down, it’s anecdotal evidence. people are seeing it more.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Andrew Barkley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t have any true scientifically backed answer to say, this is exactly what’s happening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think the most dramatic piece of evidence that is out there is from the first year of the pandemic. I think most of us would agree driving over 100 miles an hour is a pretty serious breach of driving etiquette and probably unsafe. When the pandemic happened, the number of citations doubled from 2019, the full year before the pandemic, to 2020, the year that shelter-at-home orders were in force. So, you know, that number has gone down since 2020, but it hasn’t gone back to where it was before the pandemic started. So that’s, you know, one indicator, objective indicator, of wilder behavior on the road. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Got it. So speed is up. But what about reckless driving? Is California Highway Patrol handing out more tickets for that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Andrew Barkley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You hear us referring to reckless driving. Typically, we are referring to three specific violations, and it’s normally a combination of speed, following too close and unsafe lane change.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s interesting that the number of those citations is lower for the most part, than it was the last year before the pandemic. So what do we make of that? It isn’t necessarily that people are driving more carefully. It could be that there’s less enforcement. We really don’t know.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driving, we are perceiving it’s getting worse, that’s definitely universal. There are a couple of indicators we are at least speeding a lot more than before the pandemic. But everything kind of looks flat, but we cannot put too much weight into any of this because the big question, of course, is enforcement, which is a moving variable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Look, there are some other things you can point to. Traffic deaths went up a lot in 2020 and 2021, and continued going up in 2022. They seem to have eased off, declined slightly in California last year, 2023. But the higher number of traffic fatalities, especially in 2020 and 2021, with lower amounts of traffic, points frankly, to speeding. The number of people killed in crashes where speeding was the primary crash factor, as the CHP puts it, was up 16% in California from 2020 to 2021. So, I mean, that’s objective evidence that there’s actual behavior happening that’s leading to some of these things that we’re seeing and that we perceive. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. Well, Dan Brekke, editor, reporter, traffic whiz for In Transit, KQED’s relatively new transit blog. Thank you for joining us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re welcome. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Synthy piano music\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Let’s check in on Paul, who, last we heard, was on the ferry from Larkspur…\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound of downtown San Francisco street\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well I’ve arrived. I’m in San Francisco. 10 minutes after 9. So 2 hours and 10 minutes after leaving my house. I’m here! The problem is my office is over in the Mission/Potrero Area, miles away from where I am now. So, the journey continues I’m on my way to BART…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound of BART train whirring into the station\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh boy, well at least he got to enjoy that scenic ferry ride. I think that ferry riders are probably the happiest bunch of commuters in the region. There’s even a bar on board! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the ferries aren’t the only boats offering transportation on the water.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last fall I noticed tiny yellow boats along the San Francisco shoreline a couple of times.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of the time there’s just one of these bright yellow speed boats roaming along the Embarcadero. They’re easy to spot because they have a cute little black and white checkerboard trim, just like you’d see on a retro car taxi. We sent Bay Curious producer Katrina Schwartz out to learn more about this boutique transit option.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom shouting to passersby: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">$10 Water Taxi Ride! Save yourself a long boring walk!\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I meet Captain Tom of the San Francisco Water Taxi Company along the Embarcadero at Pier 15. The little yellow boat is pulled up at the Exploratorium…near a small sign that says “Water Taxi.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Best 10 bucks you’ll spend all day! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The water taxis come when you call…or you can make an appointment. There’s no set schedule.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Big step, watch your head\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>One step down, and I’m on the small boat with three bench seats and two captain’s chairs up front.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s a top to help protect passengers from sun and spray.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The water taxi operates out of Pier 39. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They make six different stops at popular places along the San Francisco bay front.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Starting from Hyde Street Pier. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Near Ghirardelli Square. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To Pier 39. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A popular tourist destination. As well as Pier 15 at the Exploratorium museum.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Pier 1.5, next to the Ferry Building, which is temporarily closed for repairs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they go south of the Bay Bridge for a few extra bucks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pier 40 and Oracle Baseball Park and Pier 52 at Chase Basketball Center.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rides north of the bridge cost 10 dollars each … or you can pay fifteen to get a hop-on, hop-off fare to ride all day.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Quick safety chat. Life vests are under the white seats…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After the safety chat we set off north in the 29-foot yellow boat to pick up some passengers at Pier 39. I’m sitting in the co-pilot seat, which swivels, so I’ve got great views…and there are three bench seats behind me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ambi of boat speeding up\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I saw an ad on Craigslist. And I went from part-time to full-time, to managing the business in three months.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Captain Tom says the water taxi business took a hit during COVID, but it’s gradually picking back up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So you’ve got Angel Island over there, which is an old immigration island. Alcatraz straight ahead.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We slow down as we pull into the harbor at Pier 39, a massive liberty ship from WWII, the Jeremiah O’Brien, towering above us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Honk horn\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The folks we’re picking up, Jill and her son Reed from Maryland, scheduled their ride. They’re waiting by the water taxi sign at Pier 39.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jill: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I didn’t really know what I was signing up for, but I’m game.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re visiting to get away from frigid East Coast temperatures. And today, San Francisco is showing off with a beautiful, warm, sunny day.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz to Reed and Jill (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what did you guys think, worth ten bucks?\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Reed: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, definitely like the view.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jill:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a nice way to ride and see without the traffic. I’m not complaining about the traffic, it’s a city. But you’re not familiar with the streets, so to see and drive is extra!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re headed to the Exploratorium for some science fun and then eating and shopping at the Ferry Building before they head back north in the water taxi.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom to Jill and Reed (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we’ll plan on something around 3? So just call me when you get a better idea of your plans. I should be back in the area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since most of the water taxi stops are along the Embarcadero, I thought most of the passengers would be tourists, like Jill. But Captain Tom says it’s actually a 50-50 split with locals.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People will go for walks and they’ll walk out the Embarcadero and then and, especially with their dogs, and they’ll get to up Hyde Street Pier and they’ll just get tired and they don’t want to walk home, you know, another hour, especially if it’s late on a Sunday.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The taxi will also pick you up if you miss the last ferry off Angel Island or want to head over to Tiburon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you haven’t gotten out on San Francisco Bay, you’re missing one of the best things about San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Captain Tom says there’s a lot of interest in water taxis for commuting, and they’re exploring more cross-bay and southern routes, but gas is expensive and their boats only seat six passengers. It’s hard to find a price point that works for everyone.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we could definitely do it if we could just find a, you know, the right, cost-effective way to do it. And I think electric boats will advance that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says they’re exploring some options. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it’ll be a really exciting time period for water travel in the next couple of years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Captain Tom lets me off at Pier 52 near the Chase Center and sets off to pick up his next fare. But not before reminding me about Mutt Mondays…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On Mondays, if you bring your dog, you ride for free.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Horn toot + water lapping sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bass guitar music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Bay Curious producer Katrina Schwartz. Paul’s journey to the KQED offices continues as he rides up the BART escalator.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">9:33 and I have arrived 16th and Mission. Completing the latest leg in my journey. And I see a Muni bus coming, so I think that’s how I’m going to complete my transit adventure today. Take the 22 Fillmore and take it over to Bryant Street.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound of bus hydraulic system engaging as it lowers to the curb\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A short bus ride later. A quick walk to the station. Into the studio. Paul, welcome! You made it. What the epic journey! What’s the final count on how many modes of transit you took today?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (in studio): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well let’s see, I drove my car to the station, took the train, to the ferry, to BART, to the bus.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you walked to the ferry…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was some walking in there as well. So I guess that would be six modes of transportation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. Quite the feat. Well, this is all in service of answering listener Brian’s question about whether the SMART Train, which connects Sonoma and Marin counties, has improved traffic along the 101 corridor through that section. Many of the drivers on that stretch of road, like you, are trying to get to San Francisco for work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s right, it’s a commute I make just about every day. And I find anecdotally it’s just about as bad as it’s ever been. Driving usually takes me an hour and fifteen minutes to get to work. Today, taking public transit most of the way, took two hours and 40-some minutes. So I think this really illustrates one of the challenges of the SMART train, and it’s true for all of public transit, for that matter, that if you need to transfer and use a few different agencies, it gets less time efficient.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The SMART train is pretty new, so for folks who aren’t familiar – where does the train go?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so SMART opened its first stations back in 2017 and has been gradually expanding its service since then. The plan is to build it out so it connects Cloverdale in the north to Larkspur in the South where the current terminus is. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, let’s get to Brian’s question. Just how many people are opting for the train over driving?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well it’s kinda hard to say precisely because commute patterns have changed so much since the pandemic. CalTrans says there is 40% less traffic on 101 between Larkspur and Sonoma Airport Blvd than there was in 2019. But that’s all times of the day, all days of the week, most likely a result of hybrid work environment as well. Eddy Cumins is the SMART General Manager and he did some of his own calculations.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eddy Cumins: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So calendar year 2023. SMART carried over 750,000 riders. The average trip length of those riders is 22.2 miles. So if you do that math, that equates to 16.6 million passenger miles on the train.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That sounds like a lot!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It does, but you have to put that in perspective. Caltrans says the total vehicle miles traveled between Larkspur and Airport Blvd in a year is more than 1.8 billion. So SMART represents only the tiniest fraction of that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, is the answer here that SMART is not making a very big dent in traffic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That is the answer, yes. Not yet. But, SMART has only been around for a few years, and they’re still building it out. By contrast, BART has been around since the 70s, and its route has impacted all sorts of things – development around the trains, where offices get built, where other busses or trains link up. These systems tend to get more useful with time. And I should add, SMART is the only Bay Area transit system that saw an increase in riders after the pandemic. That’s in part because they’ve been working hard to change how they offer service to meet the community’s needs better, as Eddy Cummins told us…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eddy Cumins: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We noticed a significant increase in bicycle boardings. And so one of the things we did is, we had some flip seats on the side of the train. We removed those seats in order to create additional bicycle parking.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>Yes, and on my commute, I did meet passengers like Jason who brought their bike on the train.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Paul Lancour to Jason (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jason, where you coming from?\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Jason to Paul (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cotati.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Paul Lancour to Jason (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it looks like you took your bike.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jason to Paul (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, about a 10-minute ride from my house to a SMART station. This morning I’m going to ride from the end of the train into San Francisco. So a little over an hour. I drove in last Thursday, and it took me like 2.5 hours in traffic. And this is going to take me two hours. So, yeah, it’s definitely less stressful than driving to sit around just, you know, read your phone, get some work done or something. You get to be productive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I met him, Jason was actually going to ride from Larkspur into the city, so he was getting his workout for the day as well. And another thing SMART has done to cater to community needs is make it free for school children taking field trips.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eddy Cumins: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was a field trip last week and the kids all wrote us letters thanking the smart train. And so that’s beautiful.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They also kept reduced-price fares. It’s just a dollar fifty per zone. And they’ve altered the schedule to meet community needs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So who is the SMART train working for, like, right now?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Paul Lancour: Well, on the car I was on today, I met all kinds of folks.\u003c/b>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I was able to get a seat, but it was pretty busy. I met kids who are going to school, people commuting within Marin County. And it’s really pretty nice. People generally seem to find it to be a pleasant ride. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Groovy music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Paul, you’ve been a very intrepid reporter to take on this long commute. Thank you for bringing us those answers. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">laughing\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, absolutely\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">my pleasure. I think I’d better start heading home soon if I want to make it before dusk.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Good luck.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks as always to our support crew: Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Xorje Oliveras, Dan Brekke, Paul Lancour, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family. Drive safe! Try a boat or a train! And uh … have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"excerpt": "The Sonoma Marin Area Rapid Transit (SMART) train has been open since 2017, but is it doing its part to take cars off heavily traveled Highway 101?",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Driving to work every morning on congested roads is no one’s idea of a good time. And the commute on Highway 101 through Sonoma and Marin counties can be an especially laborious journey during mid-week rush hour. In an attempt to relieve congestion, provide greener transportation options and offer more ways for people to travel, the Sonoma-Marin Area Rail Transit (SMART) train opened its first stations in 2017. Since then, it has been building out its system, starting at the southern terminus of Larkspur. Eventually, it will reach all the way to Cloverdale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although the train has been in operation for several years now, this train service is still under the radar for a lot of Bay Area residents. Still, on a recent Thursday morning, the Marin and Sonoma residents who rode the train were enthusiastic about the service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I take it every single day that I can because it’s just so much quicker,” said Kelly Smith, who lives in Novato and works in San Rafael. “It’s economical. I get to chat with people on the train. It’s much more relaxing. It’s my favorite way to travel.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Other riders agreed that riding the train is much more pleasant than slogging through traffic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This train corridor, you feel like you’re in Europe,” Scott Warner said. “My health is better, and my mind is better when I get to the office, not having to deal with the jam on the 101.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11976622\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11976622\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1321843157.jpg\" alt=\"The photo is taken inside the train looking out. Inside are seats in siloutte. Outside is a lush marshland with green grass poking out of a shallow body of water. In the distance a yellow hillside with dry grass rises above the marsh.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1226\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1321843157.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1321843157-800x511.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1321843157-1020x651.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1321843157-160x102.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1321843157-1536x981.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The views over the marshlands aboard the SMART train as it travels from the Petaluma train station en route to the San Rafael station. \u003ccite>(Photo By Michael Macor/The San Francisco Chronicle via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But do these happy riders mean the SMART train is relieving congestion on Highway 101? That’s what Bay Curious listener Brian Auger, who lives in Fairfax, really wants to know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s a good question, but also a tricky time to answer because in 2024, just a few years after the coronavirus pandemic, traffic and commute patterns have changed a lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part three of the Bay Curious transportation episode. Listen to the entire episode below.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC3450871318&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The short answer\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>A Caltrans spokesperson said there is 40% less traffic on US-101 between Larkspur, in Marin, and Sonoma Airport Blvd — an approximate location for where the SMART train line currently ends — than there was in 2019. But those numbers reflect driving at all times of the day and all days of the week, so they are likely more a product of hybrid work environments than anything else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Calendar year 2023, SMART carried over 750,000 riders,” SMART General Manager Eddy Cumins said. “The average trip length of those riders is 22.2 miles. So, if you do that math, that equates to 16.6 million passenger miles on the train.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That sounds like a lot, but to give that number more context, Caltrans said the total annual vehicle miles traveled between Larkspur and Airport Blvd is more than 1.8 billion. In comparison, the miles traveled on SMART represent only the tiniest fraction of all that travel. And for even further context, SMART’s yearly ridership is close to the number of passengers BART carried each week in 2023.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In short, right now, SMART is not making a very big dent in traffic on US-101.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The longer answer\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The SMART train has only been around for a few years, most of them during or directly after the COVID-19 pandemic, which upended ridership and decimated budgets for transit agencies around the region. SMART is actually the only local transit agency to see an increase in ridership during 2023 as compared to 2019 (the last full year before the pandemic).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s also worth considering that the system isn’t fully built yet. Transit systems tend to become more useful the longer they’re around. A system like BART has been operating since the 1970s, and other infrastructure has been built around it. Employers have offices near BART stations, other transit agencies provide links to BART, and easy train access can even drive home prices. SMART hasn’t been around long enough to see much of this effect yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are a small system,” Cumins acknowledged. “We’re not BART. We’re not Caltrain. We have to focus on meeting the needs of the communities we serve.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To do that, Cumins and his colleagues have been holding listening sessions with community members in Marin and Sonoma to learn how SMART can better serve riders. Right now, the most popular station is Downtown Petaluma and many riders get off in San Rafael or Larkspur. And people who travel on the train with their bikes have been consistent riders, even during the pandemic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We noticed a significant increase in bicycle boardings,” Cumins said. “We had some flip seats on the side of the train. We removed those seats in order to create additional bicycle parking.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They’ve also increased service in the middle of the day, held fare prices low and created a new type of monthly commuter pass that reflects the reality of hybrid work schedules.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And immediately, we saw a 28% increase in monthly passes,” Cumins said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then there were more specific needs, like local teachers expressing the need for transportation when taking school kids on field trips. Cumins said they looked at train capacity and saw they might be able to accommodate this request.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Off-peak hours, when these kids want to travel, we have capacity there,” he said. “And so between nine and two, they can ride. So we’re now offering free field trips, too, for K-12 students. There was a field trip last week and the kids all wrote us letters thanking the SMART train. And so that’s beautiful.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11976625\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11976625\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/IMG_4214.jpeg\" alt=\"A green SMART train car sits at a station platform. The train is on the right side, and the platform is on the left. The platform has a few passengers on it in the distance.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/IMG_4214.jpeg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/IMG_4214-800x600.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/IMG_4214-1020x765.jpeg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/IMG_4214-160x120.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/IMG_4214-1536x1152.jpeg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The SMART train began operations in 2017 and continues to expand. \u003ccite>(Paul Lancour/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Interestingly, the ridership of SMART doesn’t follow normal commute pattern expectations. While 60% of rides are in the southern direction in the morning — what you might expect — a full 40% are northbound. Students might explain some of those anomalies. Cumins said about 15% of riders on SMART trains are students heading to school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s nice, there’s no problems,” said high school student Louie. “When we come home, it doesn’t feel that crowded. It’s mostly in the morning.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SMART is currently building the Windsor station and has several bike lanes under construction or in the planning phase as well. Part of the agency’s mission is to build out the bike path infrastructure in the region at the same time as it builds the rails, so when the system is complete, it should be a bonanza of rails and trails for residents and visitors alike.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The one thing [riders] always say is, ‘I cannot believe how clean the train is,’” Cumins said. “The other thing that I hear from people who ride is that the area between Petaluma and Novato may be the most beautiful place on Earth, and it’s a place that you can’t get to unless you’re on the train.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Every weekday morning, millions of us Bay Area residents get out of our cozy beds … and embark on mystifying migration unlike any other on planet Earth. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music reminiscent of a nature documentary begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right heading out the door. It is 7:00 on the nose. The sun will not rise for another 20 minutes or so.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Paul Lancour, one of my colleagues at KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Leaving my home in Novato. I’m going to make the short drive to the downtown Novato SMART train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He’s setting off on a daily ritual so many of us humans make. Not for food or water exactly, like you might expect from the rest of the animal kingdom, but … for work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music shift to hurried 1950s-era productivity music\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m talking about our daily commute, of course. Today, we’ve asked Paul to trade in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">his \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">daily commute by car into KQED’s offices in San Francisco for a public transit bonanza. Along the way, he’ll be riding the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">somewhat\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">-new SMART train through Marin County. SMART stands for Sonoma-Marin Area Rail Transit, by the way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why are we sending him on this mission? To answer this question from a listener…\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Brian Auger: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is Brian Auger. My question is has the North Bay SMART train had any actual impact on relieving traffic on Highway 101?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be checking in with Paul throughout the episode as he makes his way to the KQED offices to deliver the answer for Brian … but along the way, we’ll answer two other commuter questions. Listener Laurel Hetchinova thinks drivers have gotten a little out of control recently.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurel Hetchinova: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are drivers around here maybe more aggressive lately, or is it maybe just me?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Her question won a recent Bay Curious public voting round. And then finally, is there an antidote to all this commuting misery floating on the Bay? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, This is Lee from Berkeley. Does San Francisco finally have a water taxi service?\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve got a full episode of good stuff just ahead on Bay Curious. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. And oh, it looks like Paul has made it to the Novato Downtown SMART train station…\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Train bell and ambi of the train station fades in\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (in scene): (\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Beep!) That’s me tapping into the fare station here. Train departing at 7:33. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Voice over speaker on train says:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Next station, Larkspur. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And he’s off! Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re tackling some of your transit questions today as Paul makes his journey from his Novato home to KQED’s offices in San Francisco. Looks like his ride on the SMART train is complete, and he’s onto the next leg of his journey an hour and a half after it began.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the Larkspur ferry getting ready to depart at 8:29. What a lovely morning. Certainly beats sitting in traffic.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound of ferry boat pulling away from dock\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll learn soon if the SMART train is making a dent in traffic on Highway 101. But one thing we know Paul won’t be contending with today is aggressive drivers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Curious music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Our listener, Laurel, feels like the roadways here have gotten spicier than they once were…\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Laurel Hetchinova: \u003c/b>It feels kind of like every time we go out, there are, I don’t know, maybe like half a dozen going 90 to 100 and just weaving in between everybody else.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I remember that it was kind of like that during the initial weeks of shelter-in-place when fewer cars were out on the road but it feels like it’s still happening even though traffic’s back to normal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To help us figure out what’s what, we’ve got Dan Brekke in the studio today. He’s the reporter and editor of In-transit KQED’s daily blog about how we get around. Welcome, Dan. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, Olivia.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First off, Dan, can you tell us why the pandemic was such a watershed moment on our streets and highways?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, our reality changed overnight from having very crowded roads to much less crowded roads. And so that invited a different kind of behavior. Especially a lot more speeding than we’d ever seen before. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m with Laurel. It seems like a lot of dangerous behaviors that picked up during the pandemic and then just have never went away. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it turns out there’s a little survey data out there that backs up our impressions. There’s a place at UC Berkeley called the Safe Transportation Research and Education Center, or SafeTREC, and they participate in a yearly survey on what drivers feel they’re seeing on the road. And one of the questions that the survey asks is, “Since the onset of the Covid 19 pandemic, what is the biggest change in behaviors you have noticed from drivers?” And statewide the most common answer was aggressive driving and road rage, with speeding coming in a close second. So for a lot of folks, at the very least, we’re perceiving that these things are getting worse. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. But let’s look at reality. Does the California Highway Patrol have any kind of data to support or refute what so many of us are seeing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The officer I talked to at the Golden Gate division of the CHP, Andrew Barkley, said that anecdotally, and this is where the CHP comes down, it’s anecdotal evidence. people are seeing it more.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Andrew Barkley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t have any true scientifically backed answer to say, this is exactly what’s happening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think the most dramatic piece of evidence that is out there is from the first year of the pandemic. I think most of us would agree driving over 100 miles an hour is a pretty serious breach of driving etiquette and probably unsafe. When the pandemic happened, the number of citations doubled from 2019, the full year before the pandemic, to 2020, the year that shelter-at-home orders were in force. So, you know, that number has gone down since 2020, but it hasn’t gone back to where it was before the pandemic started. So that’s, you know, one indicator, objective indicator, of wilder behavior on the road. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Got it. So speed is up. But what about reckless driving? Is California Highway Patrol handing out more tickets for that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Andrew Barkley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You hear us referring to reckless driving. Typically, we are referring to three specific violations, and it’s normally a combination of speed, following too close and unsafe lane change.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s interesting that the number of those citations is lower for the most part, than it was the last year before the pandemic. So what do we make of that? It isn’t necessarily that people are driving more carefully. It could be that there’s less enforcement. We really don’t know.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driving, we are perceiving it’s getting worse, that’s definitely universal. There are a couple of indicators we are at least speeding a lot more than before the pandemic. But everything kind of looks flat, but we cannot put too much weight into any of this because the big question, of course, is enforcement, which is a moving variable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Look, there are some other things you can point to. Traffic deaths went up a lot in 2020 and 2021, and continued going up in 2022. They seem to have eased off, declined slightly in California last year, 2023. But the higher number of traffic fatalities, especially in 2020 and 2021, with lower amounts of traffic, points frankly, to speeding. The number of people killed in crashes where speeding was the primary crash factor, as the CHP puts it, was up 16% in California from 2020 to 2021. So, I mean, that’s objective evidence that there’s actual behavior happening that’s leading to some of these things that we’re seeing and that we perceive. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. Well, Dan Brekke, editor, reporter, traffic whiz for In Transit, KQED’s relatively new transit blog. Thank you for joining us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re welcome. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Synthy piano music\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Let’s check in on Paul, who, last we heard, was on the ferry from Larkspur…\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound of downtown San Francisco street\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well I’ve arrived. I’m in San Francisco. 10 minutes after 9. So 2 hours and 10 minutes after leaving my house. I’m here! The problem is my office is over in the Mission/Potrero Area, miles away from where I am now. So, the journey continues I’m on my way to BART…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound of BART train whirring into the station\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh boy, well at least he got to enjoy that scenic ferry ride. I think that ferry riders are probably the happiest bunch of commuters in the region. There’s even a bar on board! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the ferries aren’t the only boats offering transportation on the water.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last fall I noticed tiny yellow boats along the San Francisco shoreline a couple of times.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of the time there’s just one of these bright yellow speed boats roaming along the Embarcadero. They’re easy to spot because they have a cute little black and white checkerboard trim, just like you’d see on a retro car taxi. We sent Bay Curious producer Katrina Schwartz out to learn more about this boutique transit option.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom shouting to passersby: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">$10 Water Taxi Ride! Save yourself a long boring walk!\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I meet Captain Tom of the San Francisco Water Taxi Company along the Embarcadero at Pier 15. The little yellow boat is pulled up at the Exploratorium…near a small sign that says “Water Taxi.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Best 10 bucks you’ll spend all day! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The water taxis come when you call…or you can make an appointment. There’s no set schedule.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Big step, watch your head\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>One step down, and I’m on the small boat with three bench seats and two captain’s chairs up front.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s a top to help protect passengers from sun and spray.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The water taxi operates out of Pier 39. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They make six different stops at popular places along the San Francisco bay front.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Starting from Hyde Street Pier. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Near Ghirardelli Square. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To Pier 39. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A popular tourist destination. As well as Pier 15 at the Exploratorium museum.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Pier 1.5, next to the Ferry Building, which is temporarily closed for repairs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they go south of the Bay Bridge for a few extra bucks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pier 40 and Oracle Baseball Park and Pier 52 at Chase Basketball Center.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rides north of the bridge cost 10 dollars each … or you can pay fifteen to get a hop-on, hop-off fare to ride all day.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Quick safety chat. Life vests are under the white seats…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After the safety chat we set off north in the 29-foot yellow boat to pick up some passengers at Pier 39. I’m sitting in the co-pilot seat, which swivels, so I’ve got great views…and there are three bench seats behind me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ambi of boat speeding up\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I saw an ad on Craigslist. And I went from part-time to full-time, to managing the business in three months.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Captain Tom says the water taxi business took a hit during COVID, but it’s gradually picking back up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So you’ve got Angel Island over there, which is an old immigration island. Alcatraz straight ahead.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We slow down as we pull into the harbor at Pier 39, a massive liberty ship from WWII, the Jeremiah O’Brien, towering above us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Honk horn\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The folks we’re picking up, Jill and her son Reed from Maryland, scheduled their ride. They’re waiting by the water taxi sign at Pier 39.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jill: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I didn’t really know what I was signing up for, but I’m game.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re visiting to get away from frigid East Coast temperatures. And today, San Francisco is showing off with a beautiful, warm, sunny day.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz to Reed and Jill (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what did you guys think, worth ten bucks?\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Reed: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, definitely like the view.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jill:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a nice way to ride and see without the traffic. I’m not complaining about the traffic, it’s a city. But you’re not familiar with the streets, so to see and drive is extra!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re headed to the Exploratorium for some science fun and then eating and shopping at the Ferry Building before they head back north in the water taxi.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom to Jill and Reed (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we’ll plan on something around 3? So just call me when you get a better idea of your plans. I should be back in the area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since most of the water taxi stops are along the Embarcadero, I thought most of the passengers would be tourists, like Jill. But Captain Tom says it’s actually a 50-50 split with locals.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People will go for walks and they’ll walk out the Embarcadero and then and, especially with their dogs, and they’ll get to up Hyde Street Pier and they’ll just get tired and they don’t want to walk home, you know, another hour, especially if it’s late on a Sunday.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The taxi will also pick you up if you miss the last ferry off Angel Island or want to head over to Tiburon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you haven’t gotten out on San Francisco Bay, you’re missing one of the best things about San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Captain Tom says there’s a lot of interest in water taxis for commuting, and they’re exploring more cross-bay and southern routes, but gas is expensive and their boats only seat six passengers. It’s hard to find a price point that works for everyone.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we could definitely do it if we could just find a, you know, the right, cost-effective way to do it. And I think electric boats will advance that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says they’re exploring some options. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it’ll be a really exciting time period for water travel in the next couple of years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Captain Tom lets me off at Pier 52 near the Chase Center and sets off to pick up his next fare. But not before reminding me about Mutt Mondays…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On Mondays, if you bring your dog, you ride for free.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Horn toot + water lapping sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bass guitar music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Bay Curious producer Katrina Schwartz. Paul’s journey to the KQED offices continues as he rides up the BART escalator.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">9:33 and I have arrived 16th and Mission. Completing the latest leg in my journey. And I see a Muni bus coming, so I think that’s how I’m going to complete my transit adventure today. Take the 22 Fillmore and take it over to Bryant Street.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound of bus hydraulic system engaging as it lowers to the curb\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A short bus ride later. A quick walk to the station. Into the studio. Paul, welcome! You made it. What the epic journey! What’s the final count on how many modes of transit you took today?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (in studio): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well let’s see, I drove my car to the station, took the train, to the ferry, to BART, to the bus.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you walked to the ferry…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was some walking in there as well. So I guess that would be six modes of transportation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. Quite the feat. Well, this is all in service of answering listener Brian’s question about whether the SMART Train, which connects Sonoma and Marin counties, has improved traffic along the 101 corridor through that section. Many of the drivers on that stretch of road, like you, are trying to get to San Francisco for work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s right, it’s a commute I make just about every day. And I find anecdotally it’s just about as bad as it’s ever been. Driving usually takes me an hour and fifteen minutes to get to work. Today, taking public transit most of the way, took two hours and 40-some minutes. So I think this really illustrates one of the challenges of the SMART train, and it’s true for all of public transit, for that matter, that if you need to transfer and use a few different agencies, it gets less time efficient.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The SMART train is pretty new, so for folks who aren’t familiar – where does the train go?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so SMART opened its first stations back in 2017 and has been gradually expanding its service since then. The plan is to build it out so it connects Cloverdale in the north to Larkspur in the South where the current terminus is. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, let’s get to Brian’s question. Just how many people are opting for the train over driving?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well it’s kinda hard to say precisely because commute patterns have changed so much since the pandemic. CalTrans says there is 40% less traffic on 101 between Larkspur and Sonoma Airport Blvd than there was in 2019. But that’s all times of the day, all days of the week, most likely a result of hybrid work environment as well. Eddy Cumins is the SMART General Manager and he did some of his own calculations.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eddy Cumins: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So calendar year 2023. SMART carried over 750,000 riders. The average trip length of those riders is 22.2 miles. So if you do that math, that equates to 16.6 million passenger miles on the train.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That sounds like a lot!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It does, but you have to put that in perspective. Caltrans says the total vehicle miles traveled between Larkspur and Airport Blvd in a year is more than 1.8 billion. So SMART represents only the tiniest fraction of that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, is the answer here that SMART is not making a very big dent in traffic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That is the answer, yes. Not yet. But, SMART has only been around for a few years, and they’re still building it out. By contrast, BART has been around since the 70s, and its route has impacted all sorts of things – development around the trains, where offices get built, where other busses or trains link up. These systems tend to get more useful with time. And I should add, SMART is the only Bay Area transit system that saw an increase in riders after the pandemic. That’s in part because they’ve been working hard to change how they offer service to meet the community’s needs better, as Eddy Cummins told us…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eddy Cumins: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We noticed a significant increase in bicycle boardings. And so one of the things we did is, we had some flip seats on the side of the train. We removed those seats in order to create additional bicycle parking.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>Yes, and on my commute, I did meet passengers like Jason who brought their bike on the train.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Paul Lancour to Jason (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jason, where you coming from?\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Jason to Paul (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cotati.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Paul Lancour to Jason (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it looks like you took your bike.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jason to Paul (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, about a 10-minute ride from my house to a SMART station. This morning I’m going to ride from the end of the train into San Francisco. So a little over an hour. I drove in last Thursday, and it took me like 2.5 hours in traffic. And this is going to take me two hours. So, yeah, it’s definitely less stressful than driving to sit around just, you know, read your phone, get some work done or something. You get to be productive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I met him, Jason was actually going to ride from Larkspur into the city, so he was getting his workout for the day as well. And another thing SMART has done to cater to community needs is make it free for school children taking field trips.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eddy Cumins: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was a field trip last week and the kids all wrote us letters thanking the smart train. And so that’s beautiful.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They also kept reduced-price fares. It’s just a dollar fifty per zone. And they’ve altered the schedule to meet community needs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So who is the SMART train working for, like, right now?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Paul Lancour: Well, on the car I was on today, I met all kinds of folks.\u003c/b>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I was able to get a seat, but it was pretty busy. I met kids who are going to school, people commuting within Marin County. And it’s really pretty nice. People generally seem to find it to be a pleasant ride. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Groovy music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Paul, you’ve been a very intrepid reporter to take on this long commute. Thank you for bringing us those answers. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">laughing\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, absolutely\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">my pleasure. I think I’d better start heading home soon if I want to make it before dusk.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Good luck.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks as always to our support crew: Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Xorje Oliveras, Dan Brekke, Paul Lancour, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family. Drive safe! Try a boat or a train! And uh … have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "scooting-along-the-san-francisco-bay-front-in-a-water-taxi",
"title": "Scooting Along the San Francisco Bay Front in a Water Taxi",
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"headTitle": "Scooting Along the San Francisco Bay Front in a Water Taxi | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Views of the water are a central part of living in the San Francisco Bay Area. Whether it’s driving over a San Francisco hill only to be met by a sweeping view out towards the Bay Bridge and Alcatraz, cycling up Hawk Hill on the Marin headlands, or walking the wetlands that border much of the shoreline — the bay is always there. But unless you are one of the lucky few who commute by ferry or own a boat, chances are good many of us don’t spend that much time out on the water itself. Which is a bit of a shame, really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A Bay Curious listener named Lee Kempf was showing some visitors around San Francisco and noticed yellow boats buzzing along the Embarcadero. She wondered, “Does San Francisco finally have a water taxi service? If so, is it a trial run, or is it here to stay? Is it private or municipal?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On a sunny February day, I met up with Captain Tom of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfwatertaxi.net/\">San Francisco Water Taxi\u003c/a> company at Pier 15, near the Exploratorium. He’s the head captain of the water taxi business, which has been operating for eight years but is still a little under the radar. It’s a private service but operates with the permission of the San Francisco Port.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I hop in the 29-foot-long boat, painted a cheery yellow with the classic taxi black and white checkerboard along the side, and grab a seat. Captain Tom says the taxi has a capacity for six passengers, but it’s spacious. We fire up the engine and head north to pick up some folks who’ve scheduled a ride.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As we skim along the bayfront, I appreciate a view that I don’t get that often — looking at downtown San Francisco from the water. We passed Coit Tower, piers with buildings that have graffiti I’d never seen before, a decommissioned submarine, real fishing boats and lots of aquatic life. It’s fun to see Alcatraz and Angel islands in the distance, to watch the different types of boats navigate around one another and feel the wind in my hair.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We slow down to pull into the harbor at Pier 39 and pass the looming hull of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ssjeremiahobrien.org/\">SS Jeremiah O’Brien\u003c/a>, a World War II Liberty Ship that you can board and explore. From the water, it is humongous. With a little toot of the horn, we go around the seawall and glide into a berth where we meet Jill and her son Reed, who are visiting from Maryland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I didn’t really know what I was signing up for, but I’m game,” Jill said. The pair are escaping frigid East Coast temperatures for a week of vacation, and they seem impressed with the views of the city from the water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s a nice way to ride and see without the traffic,” Jill said. “I’m not complaining about the traffic. It’s a city. But [when] you’re not familiar with the streets, to see and drive is extra, so this is nice.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The nitty gritty\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11976608\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11976608\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/bigwatertaxi.jpg\" alt=\"Several yellow boats are tied up at a pier with buildings in the background.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/bigwatertaxi.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/bigwatertaxi-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/bigwatertaxi-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/bigwatertaxi-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/bigwatertaxi-1536x864.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The San Francisco Taxi Company runs one of these 18-passenger boats on busy days. They’re also available for private tours. \u003ccite>(Katrina Schwartz/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I wanted to do something people could really enjoy,” San Francisco Water Taxi Owner David Thomas said. He had a great experience with a similar service in Baltimore and thought San Francisco should have a low-cost service that gets people out on the water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Slowly but surely, people find out,” he said. “It’s the best-kept secret in the bay.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The water taxi has six locations along the Embarcadero. The service operates by appointment or when a patron calls for a ride. It’s not like a bus or train operating on a set schedule. The most northern stop along the bayfront is Hyde Street Pier, near Ghirardelli Square. It also stops at Pier 39, a popular tourist destination, and Pier 15 at the \u003ca href=\"https://www.exploratorium.edu/\">Exploratorium Museum\u003c/a>. They used to stop Pier 1.5, a public dock next to the Ferry Building, but it was damaged during the winter storms of 2023 and is currently undergoing repairs. For a few extra dollars, the taxi will also take riders south of the Bay Bridge to Pier 40 and Oracle Baseball Park, as well as Pier 52 at Chase Basketball Center.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part two in the Bay Curious transportation episode. Listen to the entire episode below.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC3450871318&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All rides north of the Bay Bridge cost $10, but a hop-on-hop-off fare is available for $15, which allows a rider to use the service all day. Kids under 15 are $5, and kids under 5 years old are free. Thomas also said chances are good any kids on board will get the chance to drive the boat, too. They also have a promotion called Mutt Mondays — passengers with dogs get to ride for free.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There are some weird dogs and weird dog owners out there, and they make our day,” Thomas said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Both tourists and locals ride the taxi, in part because it’s a way of getting out on the bay at a lower cost than chartering a tour boat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re surprised to see how much people love coming back,” Thomas said. “A lot of people are locals that figured out that by paying 10 bucks they can take their friends out on [what would be a] $50 or $60 tour.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The service has been around for eight years, Thomas said, but it took a hit during COVID-19. More recently, interest in water travel, especially for commuting, has picked back up. He’s exploring more cross-bay and southern routes, although it’s hard to find a price point that works for everyone, he said. \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/navier-sanfrancisco-water-taxis-18611010.php\">Partnering with electric boats could be one solution\u003c/a>, but he said the technology is still too expensive and limited.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If we could get one at the right price,” Thomas said he’d be interested but doesn’t expect that to happen for another ten years or so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And pro tip: If you head to Angel Island but miss the last ferry home, call the San Francisco Water Taxi, and they’ll come and rescue you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Every weekday morning, millions of us Bay Area residents get out of our cozy beds … and embark on mystifying migration unlike any other on planet Earth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music reminiscent of a nature documentary begins\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (in scene): \u003c/b>All right heading out the door. It is 7:00 on the nose. The sun will not rise for another 20 minutes or so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>This is Paul Lancour, one of my colleagues at KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (in scene): \u003c/b>Leaving my home in Novato. I’m going to make the short drive to the downtown Novato SMART train.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>He’s setting off on a daily ritual so many of us humans make. Not for food or water exactly, like you might expect from the rest of the animal kingdom, but … for work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music shift to hurried 1950s-era productivity music\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>I’m talking about our daily commute, of course. Today, we’ve asked Paul to trade in \u003ci>his \u003c/i>daily commute by car into KQED’s offices in San Francisco for a public transit bonanza. Along the way, he’ll be riding the \u003ci>somewhat\u003c/i>-new SMART train through Marin County. SMART stands for Sonoma-Marin Area Rail Transit, by the way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Why are we sending him on this mission? To answer this question from a listener…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian Auger: \u003c/b>My name is Brian Auger. My question is has the North Bay SMART train had any actual impact on relieving traffic on Highway 101?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>We’ll be checking in with Paul throughout the episode as he makes his way to the KQED offices to deliver the answer for Brian … but along the way, we’ll answer two other commuter questions. Listener Laurel Hetchinova thinks drivers have gotten a little out of control recently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music ends\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurel Hetchinova: \u003c/b>Are drivers around here maybe more aggressive lately, or is it maybe just me?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Her question won a recent Bay Curious public voting round. And then finally, is there an antidote to all this commuting misery floating on the Bay?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lee: \u003c/b>Hi, This is Lee from Berkeley. Does San Francisco finally have a water taxi service?\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>We’ve got a full episode of good stuff just ahead on Bay Curious. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. And oh, it looks like Paul has made it to the Novato Downtown SMART train station…\u003cbr>\n\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Train bell and ambi of the train station fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (in scene): (\u003c/b>Beep!) That’s me tapping into the fare station here. Train departing at 7:33. \u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Voice over speaker on train says:\u003c/b> \u003ci>Next station, Larkspur.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>And he’s off! Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SPONSOR\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>We’re tackling some of your transit questions today as Paul makes his journey from his Novato home to KQED’s offices in San Francisco. Looks like his ride on the SMART train is complete, and he’s onto the next leg of his journey an hour and a half after it began.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (in scene): \u003c/b>On the Larkspur ferry getting ready to depart at 8:29. What a lovely morning. Certainly beats sitting in traffic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sound of ferry boat pulling away from dock\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>We’ll learn soon if the SMART train is making a dent in traffic on Highway 101. But one thing we know Paul won’t be contending with today is aggressive drivers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Curious music begins\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Our listener, Laurel, feels like the roadways here have gotten spicier than they once were…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurel Hetchinova:\u003c/b> It feels kind of like every time we go out, there are, I don’t know, maybe like half a dozen going 90 to 100 and just weaving in between everybody else. And I remember that it was kind of like that during the initial weeks of shelter-in-place when fewer cars were out on the road but it feels like it’s still happening even though traffic’s back to normal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>To help us figure out what’s what, we’ve got Dan Brekke in the studio today. He’s the reporter and editor of In-transit KQED’s daily blog about how we get around. Welcome, Dan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>Hi, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>First off, Dan, can you tell us why the pandemic was such a watershed moment on our streets and highways?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>Well, our reality changed overnight from having very crowded roads to much less crowded roads. And so that invited a different kind of behavior. Especially a lot more speeding than we’d ever seen before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>I’m with Laurel. It seems like a lot of dangerous behaviors that picked up during the pandemic and then just have never went away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>And it turns out there’s a little survey data out there that backs up our impressions. There’s a place at UC Berkeley called the Safe Transportation Research and Education Center, or SafeTREC, and they participate in a yearly survey on what drivers feel they’re seeing on the road. And one of the questions that the survey asks is, “Since the onset of the Covid 19 pandemic, what is the biggest change in behaviors you have noticed from drivers?” And statewide the most common answer was aggressive driving and road rage, with speeding coming in a close second. So for a lot of folks, at the very least, we’re perceiving that these things are getting worse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Okay. But let’s look at reality. Does the California Highway Patrol have any kind of data to support or refute what so many of us are seeing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>The officer I talked to at the Golden Gate division of the CHP, Andrew Barkley, said that anecdotally, and this is where the CHP comes down, it’s anecdotal evidence. people are seeing it more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Andrew Barkley: \u003c/b>I don’t have any true scientifically backed answer to say, this is exactly what’s happening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke:\u003c/b> I think the most dramatic piece of evidence that is out there is from the first year of the pandemic. I think most of us would agree driving over 100 miles an hour is a pretty serious breach of driving etiquette and probably unsafe. When the pandemic happened, the number of citations doubled from 2019, the full year before the pandemic, to 2020, the year that shelter-at-home orders were in force. So, you know, that number has gone down since 2020, but it hasn’t gone back to where it was before the pandemic started. So that’s, you know, one indicator, objective indicator, of wilder behavior on the road.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Got it. So speed is up. But what about reckless driving? Is California Highway Patrol handing out more tickets for that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Andrew Barkley: \u003c/b>You hear us referring to reckless driving. Typically, we are referring to three specific violations, and it’s normally a combination of speed, following too close and unsafe lane change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>It’s interesting that the number of those citations is lower for the most part, than it was the last year before the pandemic. So what do we make of that? It isn’t necessarily that people are driving more carefully. It could be that there’s less enforcement. We really don’t know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Driving, we are perceiving it’s getting worse, that’s definitely universal. There are a couple of indicators we are at least speeding a lot more than before the pandemic. But everything kind of looks flat, but we cannot put too much weight into any of this because the big question, of course, is enforcement, which is a moving variable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>Look, there are some other things you can point to. Traffic deaths went up a lot in 2020 and 2021, and continued going up in 2022. They seem to have eased off, declined slightly in California last year, 2023. But the higher number of traffic fatalities, especially in 2020 and 2021, with lower amounts of traffic, points frankly, to speeding. The number of people killed in crashes where speeding was the primary crash factor, as the CHP puts it, was up 16% in California from 2020 to 2021. So, I mean, that’s objective evidence that there’s actual behavior happening that’s leading to some of these things that we’re seeing and that we perceive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>All right. Well, Dan Brekkie, editor, reporter, traffic whiz for In Transit, KQED’s relatively new transit blog. Thank you for joining us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>You’re welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Synthy piano music\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Let’s check in on Paul, who, last we heard, was on the ferry from Larkspur…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sound of downtown San Francisco street\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (in scene): \u003c/b>Well I’ve arrived. I’m in San Francisco. 10 minutes after 9. So 2 hours and 10 minutes after leaving my house. I’m here! The problem is my office is over in the Mission/Potrero Area, miles away from where I am now. So, the journey continues I’m on my way to BART…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sound of BART train whirring into the station\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Oh boy, well at least he got to enjoy that scenic ferry ride. I think that ferry riders are probably the happiest bunch of commuters in the region. There’s even a bar on board!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>But the ferries aren’t the only boats offering transportation on the water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lee: \u003c/b>Last fall I noticed tiny yellow boats along the San Francisco shoreline a couple of times.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Most of the time there’s just one of these bright yellow speed boats roaming along the Embarcadero. They’re easy to spot because they have a cute little black and white checkerboard trim, just like you’d see on a retro car taxi. We sent Bay Curious producer Katrina Schwartz out to learn more about this boutique transit option.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom shouting to passersby: \u003c/b>$10 Water Taxi Ride! Save yourself a long boring walk!\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>I meet Captain Tom of the San Francisco Water Taxi Company along the Embarcadero at Pier 15. The little yellow boat is pulled up at the Exploratorium…near a small sign that says “Water Taxi.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>Best 10 bucks you’ll spend all day!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>The water taxis come when you call…or you can make an appointment. There’s no set schedule.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom:\u003c/b> Big step, watch your head\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>One step down, and I’m on the small boat with three bench seats and two captain’s chairs up front. There’s a top to help protect passengers from sun and spray.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>The water taxi operates out of Pier 39.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>They make six different stops at popular places along the San Francisco bay front.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>Starting from Hyde Street Pier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Near Ghirardelli Square.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>To Pier 39.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>A popular tourist destination. As well as Pier 15 at the Exploratorium museum,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom:\u003c/b> Pier 1.5, next to the Ferry Building, which is temporarily closed for repairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>And they go south of the Bay Bridge for a few extra bucks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>Pier 40 and Oracle Baseball Park and Pier 52 at Chase Basketball Center.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Rides north of the bridge cost 10 dollars each … or you can pay fifteen to get a hop-on, hop-off fare to ride all day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>Quick safety chat. Life vests are under the white seats…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>After the safety chat we set off north in the 29-foot yellow boat to pick up some passengers at Pier 39. I’m sitting in the co-pilot seat, which swivels, so I’ve got great views…and there are three bench seats behind me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Ambi of boat speeding up\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom:\u003c/b> I saw an ad on Craigslist. And I went from part-time to full-time, to managing the business in three months.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Captain Tom says the water taxi business took a hit during COVID, but it’s gradually picking back up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>So you’ve got Angel Island over there, which is an old immigration island. Alcatraz straight ahead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>We slow down as we pull into the harbor at Pier 39, a massive liberty ship from WWII, the Jeremiah O’Brien, towering above us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Honk horn\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>The folks we’re picking up, Jill and her son Reed from Maryland, scheduled their ride. They’re waiting by the water taxi sign at Pier 39.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jill: \u003c/b>I didn’t really know what I was signing up for, but I’m game.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>They’re visiting to get away from frigid East Coast temperatures. And today, San Francisco is showing off with a beautiful, warm, sunny day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz to Reed and Jill (in scene): \u003c/b>So what did you guys think, worth ten bucks?\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Reed: \u003c/b>Yeah, definitely like the view.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jill:\u003c/b> It’s a nice way to ride and see without the traffic. I’m not complaining about the traffic, it’s a city. But you’re not familiar with the streets, so to see and drive is extra!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>They’re headed to the Exploratorium for some science fun and then eating and shopping at the Ferry Building before they head back north in the water taxi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom to Jill and Reed (in scene): \u003c/b>So we’ll plan on something around 3? So just call me when you get a better idea of your plans. I should be back in the area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Since most of the water taxi stops are along the Embarcadero, I thought most of the passengers would be tourists, like Jill. But Captain Tom says it’s actually a 50-50 split with locals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>People will go for walks and they’ll walk out the Embarcadero and then and, especially with their dogs, and they’ll get to up Hyde Street Pier and they’ll just get tired and they don’t want to walk home, you know, another hour, especially if it’s late on a Sunday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>The taxi will also pick you up if you miss the last ferry off Angel Island or want to head over to Tiburon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>If you haven’t gotten out on San Francisco Bay, you’re missing one of the best things about San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Captain Tom says there’s a lot of interest in water taxis for commuting, and they’re exploring more cross-bay and southern routes, but gas is expensive and their boats only seat six passengers. It’s hard to find a price point that works for everyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>So we could definitely do it if we could just find a, you know, the right, cost effective way to do it. And I think electric boats will advance that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>He says they’re exploring some options.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>I think it’ll be a really exciting time period for water travel in the next couple of years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Captain Tom lets me off at Pier 52 near the Chase Center and sets off to pick up his next fare. But not before reminding me about Mutt Mondays…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>On Mondays, if you bring your dog, you ride for free.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Horn toot + water lapping sounds\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Bass guitar music begins\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>That was Bay Curious producer Katrina Schwartz. Paul’s journey to the KQED offices continues as he rides up the BART escalator.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (in scene): \u003c/b>9:33 and I have arrived 16th and Mission. Completing the latest leg in my journey. And I see a Muni bus coming, so I think that’s how I’m going to complete my transit adventure today. Take the 22 Fillmore and take it over to Bryant Street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sound of bus hydraulic system engaging as it lowers to the curb\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>A short bus ride later. A quick walk to the station. Into the studio. Paul, welcome! You made it. What the epic journey! What’s the final count on how many modes of transit you took today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (in studio): \u003c/b>Well let’s see, I drove my car to the station, took the train, to the ferry, to BART, to the bus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>And you walked to the ferry…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>There was some walking in there as well. So I guess that would be six modes of transportation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Wow. Quite the feat. Well, this is all in service of answering listener Brian’s question about whether the SMART Train, which connects Sonoma and Marin counties, has improved traffic along the 101 corridor through that section. Many of the drivers on that stretch of road, like you, are trying to get to San Francisco for work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>That’s right, it’s a commute I make just about every day. And I find anecdotally it’s just about as bad as it’s ever been. Driving usually takes me an hour and fifteen minutes to get to work. Today, taking public transit most of the way, took two hours and 40-some minutes. So I think this really illustrates one of the challenges of the SMART train, and it’s true for all of public transit, for that matter, that if you need to transfer and use a few different agencies, it gets less time efficient.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>The SMART train is pretty new, so for folks who aren’t familiar – where does the train go?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>Yeah, so SMART opened its first stations back in 2017 and has been gradually expanding its service since then. The plan is to build it out so it connects Cloverdale in the north to Larkspur in the South where the current terminus is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Well, let’s get to Brian’s question. Just how many people are opting for the train over driving?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>Well it’s kinda hard to say precisely because commute patterns have changed so much since the pandemic. CalTrans says there is 40% less traffic on 101 between Larkspur and Sonoma Airport Blvd than there was in 2019. But that’s all times of the day, all days of the week, most likely a result of hybrid work environment as well. Eddy Cumins is the SMART General Manager and he did some of his own calculations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eddy Cumins: \u003c/b>So calendar year 2023. SMART carried over 750,000 riders. The average trip length of those riders is 22.2 miles. So if you do that math, that equates to 16.6 million passenger miles on the train.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>That sounds like a lot!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>It does, but you have to put that in perspective. Caltrans says the total vehicle miles traveled between Larkspur and Airport Blvd in a year is more than 1.8 billion. So SMART represents only the tiniest fraction of that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>So, is the answer here that SMART is not making a very big dent in traffic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>That is the answer, yes. Not yet. But SMART has only been around for a few years, and they’re still building it out. By contrast, BART has been around since the 70s, and its route has impacted all sorts of things – development around the trains, where offices get built, where other busses or trains link up. These systems tend to get more useful with time. And I should add, SMART is the only Bay Area transit system that saw an increase in riders after the pandemic. That’s in part because they’ve been working hard to change how they offer service to meet the community’s needs better, as Eddy Cummins told us…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eddy Cumins: \u003c/b>We noticed a significant increase in bicycle boardings. And so one of the things we did is, we had some flip seats on the side of the train. We removed those seats in order to create additional bicycle parking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>Yes, and on my commute, I did meet passengers like Jason who brought their bike on the train.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour to Jason (in scene): \u003c/b>Jason, where you coming from?\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Jason to Paul (in scene): \u003c/b>Cotati.\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Paul Lancour to Jason (in scene): \u003c/b>And it looks like you took your bike.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jason to Paul (in scene): \u003c/b>Yes, about a 10-minute ride from my house to a SMART station. This morning I’m going to ride from the end of the train into San Francisco. So a little over an hour. I drove in last Thursday, and it took me about 2.5 hours in traffic. And this is going to take me two hours. So, yeah, it’s definitely less stressful than driving to sit around just, you know, read your phone, get some work done or something. You get to be productive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>When I met him, Jason was actually going to ride from Larkspur into the city, so he was getting his workout for the day as well. And another thing SMART has done to cater to community needs is make it free for school children taking field trips.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eddy Cumins: \u003c/b>There was a field trip last week and the kids all wrote us letters thanking the smart train. And so that’s beautiful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>They also kept reduced-price fares. It’s just a dollar fifty per zone. And they’ve altered the schedule to meet community needs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>So who is the SMART train working for, like, right now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>Well, on the car I was on today, I met all kinds of folks. I was able to get a seat, but it was pretty busy. I met kids who are going to school, people commuting within Marin County. And it’s really pretty nice. People generally seem to find it to be a pleasant ride.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Groovy music begins\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Paul, you’ve been a very intrepid reporter to take on this long commute. Thank you for bringing us those answers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>laughing\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>Yeah, absolutely my pleasure. I think I’d better start heading home soon if I want to make it before dusk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Good luck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks as always to our support crew: Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Xorje Oliveras, Dan Brekke, Paul Lancour, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family. Drive safe! Try a boat or a train! And uh … have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Views of the water are a central part of living in the San Francisco Bay Area. Whether it’s driving over a San Francisco hill only to be met by a sweeping view out towards the Bay Bridge and Alcatraz, cycling up Hawk Hill on the Marin headlands, or walking the wetlands that border much of the shoreline — the bay is always there. But unless you are one of the lucky few who commute by ferry or own a boat, chances are good many of us don’t spend that much time out on the water itself. Which is a bit of a shame, really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A Bay Curious listener named Lee Kempf was showing some visitors around San Francisco and noticed yellow boats buzzing along the Embarcadero. She wondered, “Does San Francisco finally have a water taxi service? If so, is it a trial run, or is it here to stay? Is it private or municipal?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On a sunny February day, I met up with Captain Tom of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfwatertaxi.net/\">San Francisco Water Taxi\u003c/a> company at Pier 15, near the Exploratorium. He’s the head captain of the water taxi business, which has been operating for eight years but is still a little under the radar. It’s a private service but operates with the permission of the San Francisco Port.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I hop in the 29-foot-long boat, painted a cheery yellow with the classic taxi black and white checkerboard along the side, and grab a seat. Captain Tom says the taxi has a capacity for six passengers, but it’s spacious. We fire up the engine and head north to pick up some folks who’ve scheduled a ride.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As we skim along the bayfront, I appreciate a view that I don’t get that often — looking at downtown San Francisco from the water. We passed Coit Tower, piers with buildings that have graffiti I’d never seen before, a decommissioned submarine, real fishing boats and lots of aquatic life. It’s fun to see Alcatraz and Angel islands in the distance, to watch the different types of boats navigate around one another and feel the wind in my hair.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We slow down to pull into the harbor at Pier 39 and pass the looming hull of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ssjeremiahobrien.org/\">SS Jeremiah O’Brien\u003c/a>, a World War II Liberty Ship that you can board and explore. From the water, it is humongous. With a little toot of the horn, we go around the seawall and glide into a berth where we meet Jill and her son Reed, who are visiting from Maryland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I didn’t really know what I was signing up for, but I’m game,” Jill said. The pair are escaping frigid East Coast temperatures for a week of vacation, and they seem impressed with the views of the city from the water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s a nice way to ride and see without the traffic,” Jill said. “I’m not complaining about the traffic. It’s a city. But [when] you’re not familiar with the streets, to see and drive is extra, so this is nice.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The nitty gritty\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11976608\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11976608\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/bigwatertaxi.jpg\" alt=\"Several yellow boats are tied up at a pier with buildings in the background.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/bigwatertaxi.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/bigwatertaxi-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/bigwatertaxi-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/bigwatertaxi-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/bigwatertaxi-1536x864.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The San Francisco Taxi Company runs one of these 18-passenger boats on busy days. They’re also available for private tours. \u003ccite>(Katrina Schwartz/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I wanted to do something people could really enjoy,” San Francisco Water Taxi Owner David Thomas said. He had a great experience with a similar service in Baltimore and thought San Francisco should have a low-cost service that gets people out on the water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Slowly but surely, people find out,” he said. “It’s the best-kept secret in the bay.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The water taxi has six locations along the Embarcadero. The service operates by appointment or when a patron calls for a ride. It’s not like a bus or train operating on a set schedule. The most northern stop along the bayfront is Hyde Street Pier, near Ghirardelli Square. It also stops at Pier 39, a popular tourist destination, and Pier 15 at the \u003ca href=\"https://www.exploratorium.edu/\">Exploratorium Museum\u003c/a>. They used to stop Pier 1.5, a public dock next to the Ferry Building, but it was damaged during the winter storms of 2023 and is currently undergoing repairs. For a few extra dollars, the taxi will also take riders south of the Bay Bridge to Pier 40 and Oracle Baseball Park, as well as Pier 52 at Chase Basketball Center.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part two in the Bay Curious transportation episode. Listen to the entire episode below.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC3450871318&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All rides north of the Bay Bridge cost $10, but a hop-on-hop-off fare is available for $15, which allows a rider to use the service all day. Kids under 15 are $5, and kids under 5 years old are free. Thomas also said chances are good any kids on board will get the chance to drive the boat, too. They also have a promotion called Mutt Mondays — passengers with dogs get to ride for free.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There are some weird dogs and weird dog owners out there, and they make our day,” Thomas said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Both tourists and locals ride the taxi, in part because it’s a way of getting out on the bay at a lower cost than chartering a tour boat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re surprised to see how much people love coming back,” Thomas said. “A lot of people are locals that figured out that by paying 10 bucks they can take their friends out on [what would be a] $50 or $60 tour.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The service has been around for eight years, Thomas said, but it took a hit during COVID-19. More recently, interest in water travel, especially for commuting, has picked back up. He’s exploring more cross-bay and southern routes, although it’s hard to find a price point that works for everyone, he said. \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/navier-sanfrancisco-water-taxis-18611010.php\">Partnering with electric boats could be one solution\u003c/a>, but he said the technology is still too expensive and limited.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If we could get one at the right price,” Thomas said he’d be interested but doesn’t expect that to happen for another ten years or so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And pro tip: If you head to Angel Island but miss the last ferry home, call the San Francisco Water Taxi, and they’ll come and rescue you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Every weekday morning, millions of us Bay Area residents get out of our cozy beds … and embark on mystifying migration unlike any other on planet Earth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music reminiscent of a nature documentary begins\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (in scene): \u003c/b>All right heading out the door. It is 7:00 on the nose. The sun will not rise for another 20 minutes or so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>This is Paul Lancour, one of my colleagues at KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (in scene): \u003c/b>Leaving my home in Novato. I’m going to make the short drive to the downtown Novato SMART train.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>He’s setting off on a daily ritual so many of us humans make. Not for food or water exactly, like you might expect from the rest of the animal kingdom, but … for work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music shift to hurried 1950s-era productivity music\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>I’m talking about our daily commute, of course. Today, we’ve asked Paul to trade in \u003ci>his \u003c/i>daily commute by car into KQED’s offices in San Francisco for a public transit bonanza. Along the way, he’ll be riding the \u003ci>somewhat\u003c/i>-new SMART train through Marin County. SMART stands for Sonoma-Marin Area Rail Transit, by the way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Why are we sending him on this mission? To answer this question from a listener…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian Auger: \u003c/b>My name is Brian Auger. My question is has the North Bay SMART train had any actual impact on relieving traffic on Highway 101?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>We’ll be checking in with Paul throughout the episode as he makes his way to the KQED offices to deliver the answer for Brian … but along the way, we’ll answer two other commuter questions. Listener Laurel Hetchinova thinks drivers have gotten a little out of control recently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music ends\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurel Hetchinova: \u003c/b>Are drivers around here maybe more aggressive lately, or is it maybe just me?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Her question won a recent Bay Curious public voting round. And then finally, is there an antidote to all this commuting misery floating on the Bay?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lee: \u003c/b>Hi, This is Lee from Berkeley. Does San Francisco finally have a water taxi service?\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>We’ve got a full episode of good stuff just ahead on Bay Curious. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. And oh, it looks like Paul has made it to the Novato Downtown SMART train station…\u003cbr>\n\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Train bell and ambi of the train station fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (in scene): (\u003c/b>Beep!) That’s me tapping into the fare station here. Train departing at 7:33. \u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Voice over speaker on train says:\u003c/b> \u003ci>Next station, Larkspur.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>And he’s off! Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SPONSOR\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>We’re tackling some of your transit questions today as Paul makes his journey from his Novato home to KQED’s offices in San Francisco. Looks like his ride on the SMART train is complete, and he’s onto the next leg of his journey an hour and a half after it began.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (in scene): \u003c/b>On the Larkspur ferry getting ready to depart at 8:29. What a lovely morning. Certainly beats sitting in traffic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sound of ferry boat pulling away from dock\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>We’ll learn soon if the SMART train is making a dent in traffic on Highway 101. But one thing we know Paul won’t be contending with today is aggressive drivers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Curious music begins\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Our listener, Laurel, feels like the roadways here have gotten spicier than they once were…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurel Hetchinova:\u003c/b> It feels kind of like every time we go out, there are, I don’t know, maybe like half a dozen going 90 to 100 and just weaving in between everybody else. And I remember that it was kind of like that during the initial weeks of shelter-in-place when fewer cars were out on the road but it feels like it’s still happening even though traffic’s back to normal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>To help us figure out what’s what, we’ve got Dan Brekke in the studio today. He’s the reporter and editor of In-transit KQED’s daily blog about how we get around. Welcome, Dan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>Hi, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>First off, Dan, can you tell us why the pandemic was such a watershed moment on our streets and highways?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>Well, our reality changed overnight from having very crowded roads to much less crowded roads. And so that invited a different kind of behavior. Especially a lot more speeding than we’d ever seen before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>I’m with Laurel. It seems like a lot of dangerous behaviors that picked up during the pandemic and then just have never went away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>And it turns out there’s a little survey data out there that backs up our impressions. There’s a place at UC Berkeley called the Safe Transportation Research and Education Center, or SafeTREC, and they participate in a yearly survey on what drivers feel they’re seeing on the road. And one of the questions that the survey asks is, “Since the onset of the Covid 19 pandemic, what is the biggest change in behaviors you have noticed from drivers?” And statewide the most common answer was aggressive driving and road rage, with speeding coming in a close second. So for a lot of folks, at the very least, we’re perceiving that these things are getting worse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Okay. But let’s look at reality. Does the California Highway Patrol have any kind of data to support or refute what so many of us are seeing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>The officer I talked to at the Golden Gate division of the CHP, Andrew Barkley, said that anecdotally, and this is where the CHP comes down, it’s anecdotal evidence. people are seeing it more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Andrew Barkley: \u003c/b>I don’t have any true scientifically backed answer to say, this is exactly what’s happening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke:\u003c/b> I think the most dramatic piece of evidence that is out there is from the first year of the pandemic. I think most of us would agree driving over 100 miles an hour is a pretty serious breach of driving etiquette and probably unsafe. When the pandemic happened, the number of citations doubled from 2019, the full year before the pandemic, to 2020, the year that shelter-at-home orders were in force. So, you know, that number has gone down since 2020, but it hasn’t gone back to where it was before the pandemic started. So that’s, you know, one indicator, objective indicator, of wilder behavior on the road.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Got it. So speed is up. But what about reckless driving? Is California Highway Patrol handing out more tickets for that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Andrew Barkley: \u003c/b>You hear us referring to reckless driving. Typically, we are referring to three specific violations, and it’s normally a combination of speed, following too close and unsafe lane change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>It’s interesting that the number of those citations is lower for the most part, than it was the last year before the pandemic. So what do we make of that? It isn’t necessarily that people are driving more carefully. It could be that there’s less enforcement. We really don’t know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Driving, we are perceiving it’s getting worse, that’s definitely universal. There are a couple of indicators we are at least speeding a lot more than before the pandemic. But everything kind of looks flat, but we cannot put too much weight into any of this because the big question, of course, is enforcement, which is a moving variable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>Look, there are some other things you can point to. Traffic deaths went up a lot in 2020 and 2021, and continued going up in 2022. They seem to have eased off, declined slightly in California last year, 2023. But the higher number of traffic fatalities, especially in 2020 and 2021, with lower amounts of traffic, points frankly, to speeding. The number of people killed in crashes where speeding was the primary crash factor, as the CHP puts it, was up 16% in California from 2020 to 2021. So, I mean, that’s objective evidence that there’s actual behavior happening that’s leading to some of these things that we’re seeing and that we perceive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>All right. Well, Dan Brekkie, editor, reporter, traffic whiz for In Transit, KQED’s relatively new transit blog. Thank you for joining us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan Brekke: \u003c/b>You’re welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Synthy piano music\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Let’s check in on Paul, who, last we heard, was on the ferry from Larkspur…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sound of downtown San Francisco street\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (in scene): \u003c/b>Well I’ve arrived. I’m in San Francisco. 10 minutes after 9. So 2 hours and 10 minutes after leaving my house. I’m here! The problem is my office is over in the Mission/Potrero Area, miles away from where I am now. So, the journey continues I’m on my way to BART…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sound of BART train whirring into the station\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Oh boy, well at least he got to enjoy that scenic ferry ride. I think that ferry riders are probably the happiest bunch of commuters in the region. There’s even a bar on board!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>But the ferries aren’t the only boats offering transportation on the water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lee: \u003c/b>Last fall I noticed tiny yellow boats along the San Francisco shoreline a couple of times.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Most of the time there’s just one of these bright yellow speed boats roaming along the Embarcadero. They’re easy to spot because they have a cute little black and white checkerboard trim, just like you’d see on a retro car taxi. We sent Bay Curious producer Katrina Schwartz out to learn more about this boutique transit option.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom shouting to passersby: \u003c/b>$10 Water Taxi Ride! Save yourself a long boring walk!\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>I meet Captain Tom of the San Francisco Water Taxi Company along the Embarcadero at Pier 15. The little yellow boat is pulled up at the Exploratorium…near a small sign that says “Water Taxi.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>Best 10 bucks you’ll spend all day!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>The water taxis come when you call…or you can make an appointment. There’s no set schedule.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom:\u003c/b> Big step, watch your head\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>One step down, and I’m on the small boat with three bench seats and two captain’s chairs up front. There’s a top to help protect passengers from sun and spray.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>The water taxi operates out of Pier 39.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>They make six different stops at popular places along the San Francisco bay front.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>Starting from Hyde Street Pier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Near Ghirardelli Square.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>To Pier 39.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>A popular tourist destination. As well as Pier 15 at the Exploratorium museum,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom:\u003c/b> Pier 1.5, next to the Ferry Building, which is temporarily closed for repairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>And they go south of the Bay Bridge for a few extra bucks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>Pier 40 and Oracle Baseball Park and Pier 52 at Chase Basketball Center.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Rides north of the bridge cost 10 dollars each … or you can pay fifteen to get a hop-on, hop-off fare to ride all day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>Quick safety chat. Life vests are under the white seats…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>After the safety chat we set off north in the 29-foot yellow boat to pick up some passengers at Pier 39. I’m sitting in the co-pilot seat, which swivels, so I’ve got great views…and there are three bench seats behind me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Ambi of boat speeding up\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom:\u003c/b> I saw an ad on Craigslist. And I went from part-time to full-time, to managing the business in three months.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Captain Tom says the water taxi business took a hit during COVID, but it’s gradually picking back up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>So you’ve got Angel Island over there, which is an old immigration island. Alcatraz straight ahead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>We slow down as we pull into the harbor at Pier 39, a massive liberty ship from WWII, the Jeremiah O’Brien, towering above us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Honk horn\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>The folks we’re picking up, Jill and her son Reed from Maryland, scheduled their ride. They’re waiting by the water taxi sign at Pier 39.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jill: \u003c/b>I didn’t really know what I was signing up for, but I’m game.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>They’re visiting to get away from frigid East Coast temperatures. And today, San Francisco is showing off with a beautiful, warm, sunny day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz to Reed and Jill (in scene): \u003c/b>So what did you guys think, worth ten bucks?\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Reed: \u003c/b>Yeah, definitely like the view.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jill:\u003c/b> It’s a nice way to ride and see without the traffic. I’m not complaining about the traffic, it’s a city. But you’re not familiar with the streets, so to see and drive is extra!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>They’re headed to the Exploratorium for some science fun and then eating and shopping at the Ferry Building before they head back north in the water taxi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom to Jill and Reed (in scene): \u003c/b>So we’ll plan on something around 3? So just call me when you get a better idea of your plans. I should be back in the area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Since most of the water taxi stops are along the Embarcadero, I thought most of the passengers would be tourists, like Jill. But Captain Tom says it’s actually a 50-50 split with locals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>People will go for walks and they’ll walk out the Embarcadero and then and, especially with their dogs, and they’ll get to up Hyde Street Pier and they’ll just get tired and they don’t want to walk home, you know, another hour, especially if it’s late on a Sunday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>The taxi will also pick you up if you miss the last ferry off Angel Island or want to head over to Tiburon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>If you haven’t gotten out on San Francisco Bay, you’re missing one of the best things about San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Captain Tom says there’s a lot of interest in water taxis for commuting, and they’re exploring more cross-bay and southern routes, but gas is expensive and their boats only seat six passengers. It’s hard to find a price point that works for everyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>So we could definitely do it if we could just find a, you know, the right, cost effective way to do it. And I think electric boats will advance that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>He says they’re exploring some options.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>I think it’ll be a really exciting time period for water travel in the next couple of years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Captain Tom lets me off at Pier 52 near the Chase Center and sets off to pick up his next fare. But not before reminding me about Mutt Mondays…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Captain Tom: \u003c/b>On Mondays, if you bring your dog, you ride for free.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Horn toot + water lapping sounds\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Bass guitar music begins\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>That was Bay Curious producer Katrina Schwartz. Paul’s journey to the KQED offices continues as he rides up the BART escalator.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (in scene): \u003c/b>9:33 and I have arrived 16th and Mission. Completing the latest leg in my journey. And I see a Muni bus coming, so I think that’s how I’m going to complete my transit adventure today. Take the 22 Fillmore and take it over to Bryant Street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sound of bus hydraulic system engaging as it lowers to the curb\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>A short bus ride later. A quick walk to the station. Into the studio. Paul, welcome! You made it. What the epic journey! What’s the final count on how many modes of transit you took today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (in studio): \u003c/b>Well let’s see, I drove my car to the station, took the train, to the ferry, to BART, to the bus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>And you walked to the ferry…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>There was some walking in there as well. So I guess that would be six modes of transportation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Wow. Quite the feat. Well, this is all in service of answering listener Brian’s question about whether the SMART Train, which connects Sonoma and Marin counties, has improved traffic along the 101 corridor through that section. Many of the drivers on that stretch of road, like you, are trying to get to San Francisco for work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>That’s right, it’s a commute I make just about every day. And I find anecdotally it’s just about as bad as it’s ever been. Driving usually takes me an hour and fifteen minutes to get to work. Today, taking public transit most of the way, took two hours and 40-some minutes. So I think this really illustrates one of the challenges of the SMART train, and it’s true for all of public transit, for that matter, that if you need to transfer and use a few different agencies, it gets less time efficient.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>The SMART train is pretty new, so for folks who aren’t familiar – where does the train go?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>Yeah, so SMART opened its first stations back in 2017 and has been gradually expanding its service since then. The plan is to build it out so it connects Cloverdale in the north to Larkspur in the South where the current terminus is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Well, let’s get to Brian’s question. Just how many people are opting for the train over driving?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>Well it’s kinda hard to say precisely because commute patterns have changed so much since the pandemic. CalTrans says there is 40% less traffic on 101 between Larkspur and Sonoma Airport Blvd than there was in 2019. But that’s all times of the day, all days of the week, most likely a result of hybrid work environment as well. Eddy Cumins is the SMART General Manager and he did some of his own calculations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eddy Cumins: \u003c/b>So calendar year 2023. SMART carried over 750,000 riders. The average trip length of those riders is 22.2 miles. So if you do that math, that equates to 16.6 million passenger miles on the train.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>That sounds like a lot!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>It does, but you have to put that in perspective. Caltrans says the total vehicle miles traveled between Larkspur and Airport Blvd in a year is more than 1.8 billion. So SMART represents only the tiniest fraction of that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>So, is the answer here that SMART is not making a very big dent in traffic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>That is the answer, yes. Not yet. But SMART has only been around for a few years, and they’re still building it out. By contrast, BART has been around since the 70s, and its route has impacted all sorts of things – development around the trains, where offices get built, where other busses or trains link up. These systems tend to get more useful with time. And I should add, SMART is the only Bay Area transit system that saw an increase in riders after the pandemic. That’s in part because they’ve been working hard to change how they offer service to meet the community’s needs better, as Eddy Cummins told us…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eddy Cumins: \u003c/b>We noticed a significant increase in bicycle boardings. And so one of the things we did is, we had some flip seats on the side of the train. We removed those seats in order to create additional bicycle parking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>Yes, and on my commute, I did meet passengers like Jason who brought their bike on the train.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour to Jason (in scene): \u003c/b>Jason, where you coming from?\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Jason to Paul (in scene): \u003c/b>Cotati.\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Paul Lancour to Jason (in scene): \u003c/b>And it looks like you took your bike.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jason to Paul (in scene): \u003c/b>Yes, about a 10-minute ride from my house to a SMART station. This morning I’m going to ride from the end of the train into San Francisco. So a little over an hour. I drove in last Thursday, and it took me about 2.5 hours in traffic. And this is going to take me two hours. So, yeah, it’s definitely less stressful than driving to sit around just, you know, read your phone, get some work done or something. You get to be productive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>When I met him, Jason was actually going to ride from Larkspur into the city, so he was getting his workout for the day as well. And another thing SMART has done to cater to community needs is make it free for school children taking field trips.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eddy Cumins: \u003c/b>There was a field trip last week and the kids all wrote us letters thanking the smart train. And so that’s beautiful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>They also kept reduced-price fares. It’s just a dollar fifty per zone. And they’ve altered the schedule to meet community needs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>So who is the SMART train working for, like, right now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>Well, on the car I was on today, I met all kinds of folks. I was able to get a seat, but it was pretty busy. I met kids who are going to school, people commuting within Marin County. And it’s really pretty nice. People generally seem to find it to be a pleasant ride.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Groovy music begins\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Paul, you’ve been a very intrepid reporter to take on this long commute. Thank you for bringing us those answers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>laughing\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>Yeah, absolutely my pleasure. I think I’d better start heading home soon if I want to make it before dusk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Good luck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks as always to our support crew: Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Xorje Oliveras, Dan Brekke, Paul Lancour, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family. Drive safe! Try a boat or a train! And uh … have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "from-ghirardelli-to-socola-unwrapping-sfs-chocolate-history",
"title": "From Ghirardelli to Socola: Unwrapping SF's Chocolate History",
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"headTitle": "From Ghirardelli to Socola: Unwrapping SF’s Chocolate History | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are several foods that have become synonymous with the San Francisco Bay Area: sourdough bread, Mission-style burritos, dim sum from Chinatown, bahn mi in San José. And then, there’s chocolate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The region is home to some of the oldest American chocolate companies —\u003ca href=\"https://www.ghirardelli.com/\"> Ghirardelli\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.guittard.com/\">Guittard\u003c/a>. But when Bay Curious listener Beth Caissie moved here, she came to realize the Bay Area has a thriving modern chocolate scene, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s like everything from big chocolate makers like Ghirardelli and Guittard to smaller ones like Dandelion,” she said. “And then there’s the guy who makes truffles in North Beach, and there’s a chocolate cafe in South Park.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It got her wondering why this region is so rich with chocolate makers. She asked, “Does it have something to do with the Gold Rush?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Gold Rush does play a part in the Bay Area’s chocolate history, but that’s just the beginning of the region’s rich, chocolatey story.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Selling miners a luxury product\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11707699/why-burlingame-smells-like-chocolate\">Etienne Guittard\u003c/a> immigrated to California from Tournus, France, in search of gold. His uncle owned a chocolate factory, so he brought some bars to trade for mining supplies. After three years of failed mining, Guittard realized other miners would pay a premium for chocolate. He returned to France to perfect his craft and then opened Guittard Chocolate in 1868 on Sansome Street in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In contrast to Guittard, who originally immigrated with dreams of striking gold, \u003ca href=\"https://www.ghirardelli.com/about-ghirardelli-history\">Domenico Ghirardelli\u003c/a> recognized from the beginning that the real money was in provisioning the miners themselves. He opened a general store in Stockton to supply miners with basic food supplies, including chocolate. He already knew how to turn cocoa beans into chocolate bars because of his experience working for chocolatiers in his hometown of Genoa, Italy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the mid-1850s, he established the Ghirardelli Chocolate Company in what is today known as Ghirardelli Square, on the bayfront.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Port cities were often the places that chocolate [businesses] started because you had to get the beans here,” said Greg D’Alesandre, chief sourcing officer at \u003ca href=\"https://www.dandelionchocolate.com/pages/aboutus\">Dandelion Chocolate\u003c/a>. “As opposed to a lot of other industries that could pop up in other parts of the United States, chocolate had to start on the coasts because that’s where you can get the cocoa beans.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And because the raw materials for chocolate were readily available in San Francisco, and companies like Ghirardelli and Guittard were making raw chocolate, it was only natural for chocolatiers to build their businesses here, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Part of the reason See’s Candies has been around for a long time is that they used Guittard chocolate,” D’Alesandre said. “They had a source of chocolate very nearby, so it’s one of those things where industries grow around other [related] industries.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The same general trend happened in East Coast port cities like New York and Boston, leading to candy giants like the Hershey Company, which eventually set up its factory in Pennsylvania. But Hershey marketed its products to children, pumping out high volumes of cheaper, sweet chocolate filled with preservatives to keep chocolate shelf-stable for years. In contrast, on the West Coast, chocolate has always been treated as a “sort of specialty product,” D’Alesandre said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And as the population of San Francisco has grown and changed over the decades, the tradition of specialty chocolate has evolved and diversified its flavors.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A tasty twist on chocolate\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11974602\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11974602\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-34-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Asian woman in chef's whites leans on a table next to a stack of red boxes.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-34-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-34-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-34-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-34-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-34-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-34-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">CEO and Chief Chocolatier Wendy Lieu poses for a portrait at Socola Chocolatier in San Francisco on Jan. 31, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Wendy and Susan Lieu grew up in Santa Rosa, often helping out at the family’s nail salon business. But the two girls preferred to spend their time across the street at the mall. The first store they’d see when entering was See’s Candies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We would sample the same flavors [every time],” Wendy Lieu said. “I wanted to learn how to make [chocolates], so I found a recipe in Gourmet magazine for a mocha espresso chocolate. I was instantly enamored with chocolate and wanted to learn how to make more flavors.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Lieu sisters opened up a stand at their local farmers market in 2001 and started selling chocolates. They started out with similar flavors to the ones they had sampled at See’s Candies, but they worried their business wouldn’t stand out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11974601\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11974601\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-29-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-29-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-29-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-29-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-29-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-29-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-29-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Year of the Dragon boxes sit on a counter at Socola Chocolatier in San Francisco on Jan. 31, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We were never going to fit in,” Lieu said. “If we said the definition for a chocolatier is [someone who] had to make these European-style chocolates with these typical flavors, there’s always going to be someone with better credentials.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, they pivoted into trying flavors outside the box.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I thought it was an interesting challenge to come up with new flavors because, honestly, I was getting pretty bored making the same dark chocolate, raspberry, caramel, milk chocolate flavors that people like,” Lieu said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She started making treats inspired by friends and loyal customers: a handmade marshmallow wrapped in caramel and dipped in chocolate called an “Esther Bomb.” Then came the “Big Fat Susan,” a hunk of ganache dipped in 70%-cocoa Scharffen Berger chocolate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the farmer’s market, customers would regularly ask them about their company’s name — \u003ca href=\"https://www.socolachocolates.com/\">Socola\u003c/a>. It means chocolate in Vietnamese. When people discovered that, they clamored for flavors inspired by Vietnamese food.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Slowly, the sister team started playing with flavors like Vietnamese chicory coffee, durian, passionfruit and more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was more fun and more interesting to come up with flavors that reflected our heritage,” Wendy Lieu said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11974600\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11974600\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-19-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-19-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-19-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-19-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-19-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-19-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-19-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">CEO and Chief Chocolatier Wendy Lieu packages The Year of the Dragon Box chocolates at Socola Chocolatier in San Francisco on Jan. 31, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>And customers loved trying something new and different. In 2014, the company hit a milestone by opening a brick-and-mortar store on Rincon Hill in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2020, when the coronavirus pandemic hit, Socola was struggling like many retail businesses. So Wendy Lieu decided to create a box of bonbons with flavors purely inspired by traditional Vietnamese flavors: jasmine tea, pho, sriracha and others. She called it the Little Saigon Box.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was going to bet on myself, my heritage and my culture and see where it goes because I had nothing to lose,” she said. “It’s now our best-selling box.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After releasing the Little Saigon Box, Lieu was also surprised to see more Vietnamese customers try out her chocolates.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Vietnamese people don’t eat chocolate, but then people were showing up and gifting them to their family,” she said. “They would say, ‘This is a really good way to connect to my family.'”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A new wave of Asian American chocolatiers\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11974603\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11974603\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-03-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"An Asian woman in a pink headband and apron leans over rows of red chocolates, carefully adding gold leaf decoration.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-03-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-03-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-03-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-03-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-03-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-03-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Chocolatier Kimberly Yang decorates the Asian ‘Twix’ bar at her business, Formosa Chocolates, in San Rafael on Feb. 1, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Socola was one of the first Vietnamese-run chocolate companies in the country and has inspired other chocolatiers of color to put their own spin on the confection.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kimberly Yang founded \u003ca href=\"https://www.formosachocolates.com/\">Formosa Chocolates\u003c/a> in 2019. Her chocolate shop features Taiwanese-inspired flavors, like Kavalan whisky ganache, calamansi citrus cheesecake bars and flavors she has encountered in her travels around the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I studied chocolate in Belgium, and one of the flavors I fell in love with was orange speculoos,” she said. “So that flavor has become pretty standard for me since then.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Yang’s journey into the chocolate world has been circuitous. She grew up in Oklahoma and studied medicine to become a psychiatrist. She moved to the Bay Area to work for Kaiser in Oakland. But she always had a creative outlet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I love cooking, and when I had vacation, I would do things like go to Italy to learn how to make pasta,” she said. “I saw the International Culinary Center in New York was offering a chocolate boot camp, and I love chocolate. I thought I’ll go to this intensive boot camp and get it out of my system. I came back, and I was still obsessed with chocolate.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11974605\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11974605\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-06-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Pair of gloved hands hold a red heart shaped mold for making chocolates.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-06-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-06-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-06-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-06-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-06-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-06-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Chocolatier Kimberly Yang holds a heart mold at Formosa Chocolates in San Rafael on Feb. 1, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>She started buying textbooks on chocolate making and fantasizing about the various fillings she could create in her home kitchen. But making chocolate outside of a professional kitchen is tricky, and her work in psychiatry was increasingly grueling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It just got to the point where I was feeling burnt out with medicine,” she said. “So I thought, maybe I’d try my hand at starting a chocolate company.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She debuted her bonbons in November 2019 at the \u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/groups/sftangomarathon/\">San Francisco Tango Marathon\u003c/a>. A few months later, the pandemic hit, and she was stuck with lots of chocolate treats and nowhere to sell them. She had to figure out a direct-to-consumer strategy if her fledgling business was going to survive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I wasn’t familiar with mail order businesses, so it was definitely a challenge learning all the little bits, like what’s the best way to ship [chocolates] with ice packs, cushioning, all that stuff,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11974604\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11974604\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-04-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-04-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-04-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-04-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-04-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-04-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-04-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Chocolatier Kimberly Yang decorates the Asian ‘Twix’ bar at her business, Formosa Chocolates, in San Rafael on Feb. 1, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But eventually, she found a groove. She released limited edition bonbons for the Lunar New Year and Mid Autumn Festival. \u003ca href=\"https://guide.michelin.com/us/en/article/features/where-to-order-chocolates-for-mother-s-day\">The Michelin Guide\u003c/a> featured Formosa Chocolates in a list of the best chocolates to buy for Mother’s Day. Bon Appetit included them in a list of “\u003ca href=\"https://www.bonappetit.com/story/best-chocolates-to-buy-online\">The Best Chocolates To Buy Online Right Now,”\u003c/a> and last year, the State Department approached her to make more than 3,000 bonbon boxes for the APEC Summit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That was a lot,” she said. “I don’t think I’ll ever get such a big order again. It’s good to know I can handle it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She’s eager to experiment with new flavors, some more savory and spicy than sweet. And she’s confident that, at least in the Bay Area, there will always be customers eager to try new things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Customers are excited to discover the company and support it,” she said. “I’m not so sure I would be able to pull this off elsewhere in the country.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>When you think of food and San Francisco, there are probably a few things that come to mind … sourdough bread from Boudin or Acme, maybe burritos in the Mission or dim sum in Chinatown.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And then … there’s chocolate. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Relaxed piano music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Beth Caissie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Of course, I had heard of Ghirardelli chocolates, everybody, you know, it’s sort of synonymous with San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Beth Caissie moved to San Francisco in the middle of 2020. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Beth Caissie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m a newcomer here and I’m a geologist. I work for the US Geological Survey.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And when she’s not collecting sediment cores from the Bering Sea — something she actually did this past summer — she’s probably eating chocolate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Beth Caissie\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: I’m really into chocolate. I drink a mocha every single morning. And, you know, I feel like there’s two kinds of mocha drinkers. There’s like people who just like something sweet and then there’s people who really like chocolate. And I’m the chocolate variety. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And she noticed San Francisco has a lot of chocolate makers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Beth Caissie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s like everything from big chocolate makers like Ghirardelli and Guittard and then, you know, smaller ones like Dandelion. There’s like a guy who makes truffles in North Beach and there’s like a chocolate cafe in South Park. So I was like, oh, my gosh, what’s happening in San Francisco? Why are there so many chocolate makers? And my question really is like, does it have something to do with the Gold Rush?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious theme music\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is Bay Curious, the podcast that explores the Bay Area one question at a time. I’m Olivia Allen Price. Today, we’re going to dive into the rich Bay Area chocolate scene and understand why San Francisco’s history and location created the perfect conditions for chocolate makers — both then and now. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor message from Sierra Nevada Brewing Company\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To answer Beth Caissie’s question about what has made San Francisco such a notable chocolate town, we turn to — Reporter Adhiti Bandlamudi, who is quite the lover of chocolate herself…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our question-asker, Beth, is on the right track. The Gold Rush does have a part to play in the Bay Area’s chocolate scene. In many ways, the story of chocolate here is one of immigration and ingenuity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Classic Italian lute music to set the scene\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Gold Rush brought around 300,000 people to San Francisco in the mid-1800s from all over the world — and they were \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">hungry\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Domenico Ghirardelli and Etienne Guittard were two European immigrants who opened general stores to meet the need. They would go on to form two of the oldest and most iconic San Francisco chocolate companies. Maybe you’ve heard of them — Ghirardelli and Guittard.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Greg D’Alesandre:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Guittard and Ghiradelli started because they wanted to sell chocolate to people who were getting gold.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Greg D’Alesandre is Dandelion Chocolate’s Chief Sourcing Officer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Greg D’Alesandre: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I sometimes go by chocolate sorcerer\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And he says it makes sense that chocolate would come to San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Greg D’Alesandre: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Port cities were often the places where chocolate started and cocoa started because you had to get the beans here. The beans weren’t being grown here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">East Coast port cities like New York and Boston also had new chocolate companies. But West Coast chocolate makers like Ghirardelli and Guittard set themselves apart by marketing their chocolate as a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">luxury\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> product. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Greg D’Alesandre:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Much the same way people did with coffee.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Old Ghirardelli Ad: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“This Ghirardelli square is no ordinary chocolate… ”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Big chocolate companies like Guittard and Ghirardelli got the ball rolling, making raw chocolate, from the cocoa bean into bars. It was only natural for other confectioners, or people who make things out of the chocolate, to open shop in the same area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Greg D’Alesandre:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A lot of people know See’s Candy. They use Guittard chocolate. Like they had a source of chocolate very nearby. And so it’s one of these things of like, you know like industries grow around the industries they need to support them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And here’s where San Francisco’s chocolate history gets really interesting. We had access to the cocoa beans through shipping. And old-school chocolate companies making high quality raw chocolate. But it’s the creativity and knowledge of San Francisco’s diverse population — folks from Europe, Asia, Latin America and beyond — that elevated those raw materials into truly magical chocolate treats. If you look at the many chocolatiers in the Bay Area today, many of them have built their businesses by putting their own cultural twist on chocolate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Percussive music playing over the sound of a person scooping chocolate chips into a bowl\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m standing inside Socola, a chocolate shop in downtown San Francisco. Wendy Lieu, the founder of the company, opens huge boxes filled with Guittard chocolate chips — called “callets” — and scoops them into a bowl to start melting them down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Scooping sound of chocolate chips continues\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She started Socola in 2001 with her sister, Susan. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wendy Lieu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We were teenagers at the time, growing up in Santa Rosa. Our parents had a nail salon, so that meant every day after school, we’d go there to help out. And of course, we really didn’t enjoy doing that. We’d rather go across the street to the mall, and the first store in the mall was See’s Candies.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wendy and Susan tried all the samples and soon got used to the classic flavors of vanilla and chocolate buttercream, peanut butter, butterscotch — you know the drill. One day, Wendy decided to try making her own chocolate treats. She started with the bonbon, a chocolate shell with a ganache center. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wendy Lieu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I found a recipe in Gourmet magazine for a mocha espresso chocolate. And I was instantly, like, enamored with chocolate and wanting to learn how to make it. Make more chocolates in more flavors.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She and Susan started selling chocolate at their local farmer’s market stand. At first, they were making the same flavors they had seen at See’s Candies, but they felt like they were playing a game they’d never win. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wendy Lieu: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s going to be someone with better credentials and trained skills of like, ‘Oh, I, we trained with this person,’ and you know that for a chocolatier, that kind of sounds better. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When they started, Wendy and Susan didn’t have all that fancy training. So the sister team decided to pivot. Farmer’s market customers were curious about the company’s name — Socola means chocolate in Vietnamese — and when they found out, they’d ask for Vietnamese flavors. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wendy Lieu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like, “Oh, make a coffee flavor.” And I was like\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, that sounds interesting. But I also don’t want it to be boring. So can we make it Vietnamese coffee and add some condensed milk to it?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Percussive music evoking creativity begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then we kind of just started doing that where someone was like, “Oh, make us spicy chocolate.” And I was like, “I won’t make chili, but I’ll make Sriracha.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">”\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A few years after that farmer’s market start in 2001, Socola started releasing bonbons with flavors like durian, passion fruit— even pho, like the Vietnamese soup. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wendy Lieu: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then it was more fun and more interesting to come up with flavors that reflected our heritage. Right? So it was like, let’s make chocolates that flavors that don’t exist. And then no one can compare those. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As I talk to Wendy, she hands me one of her latest creations: a pandan coconut bonbon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi (in tape)\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: (\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">crunch noise as she bites into chocolate\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">) Mmm! Wow.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The pandan is so subtle and yet it kind of hits you at the end. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I can’t totally figure out how the chocolate flavors are working. Honestly, it’s just sorcery.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2014, Socola hit a milestone, opening a brick-and-mortar shop in Rincon Hill.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wendy Lieu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I feel a lot of happiness, representing our heritage and our culture and that, you know, we’re, you know, part of mainstream chocolate now. And before then, there were no other Vietnamese chocolatiers.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music evoking the Lunar New Year\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">San Francisco’s early chocolate makers were predominantly from European countries. But that’s slowly changing as pioneers like Wendy and Susan at Socola pave the way for more experimentation. In the last decades, the Bay Area has seen an explosion of new chocolatiers of color, many of them women, who are boldly playing with flavors in these bite-sized, edible pieces of art. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fade in sounds from a visit to Formosa Chocolates\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kimberly Yang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is toffee and black sesame and dark chocolate. And, just in the shape of a dragon for the Lunar New Year.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Kimberly Yang, a Taiwanese American chocolatier based in San Rafael. She owns the company Formosa Chocolates. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kimberly Yang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Formosa is the old name for Taiwan. When the Portuguese sailors first saw the coastline, they said it was a beautiful island.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kimberly grew up in Oklahoma and, like so many first-generation immigrants, struggled to claim her cultural identity in such a different place. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kimberly Yang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I didn’t have a lot of Taiwanese friends, let alone Asian friends. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She became a psychiatrist and moved to the Bay Area for a job with Kaiser. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kimberly Yang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When I moved to the Bay Area, I just started to notice that there’s more of this community\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>Psychiatry was exhausting, so to get away from her stress, Kimberly took chocolate-making classes.\u003c/span> She discovered a passion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kimberly Yang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It just got to the point where I was just feeling kind of burnt out with medicine, and I thought maybe try my hand at starting a chocolate company.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sounds from Yang’s kitchen\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kimberly’s industrial kitchen is vast and gleaming. She’s piping fine lines of chocolate onto her “Asian Twix bars” — one of her signature candies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kimberly Yang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Twix is one of my favorite candy bars to eat, and I think so many times customers ask, like, so what’s Taiwanese about your company? And mostly it’s me. I’m Taiwanese. But I thought I needed to lean more into Asian-inspired flavors. And I thought miso and caramel goes together so wonderfully. And I’ve been wanting to do more things with black sesame, so it’s just made it black sesame shortbread.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some of her other innovative flavors include balsamic vinegar caramel and strawberry bonbons shaped like an anatomically correct heart, gold-dusted bonbons with Taiwanese Kavalan whiskey and honey ganache. When she started the company in the fall of 2019 she was full of hope. Then the pandemic hit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kimberly Yang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, initially, I just had all this inventory on my hands and it’s like, oh, gosh, there’s nothing more depressing than a chocolatier with nobody to sell their chocolates to. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She had to find a way to sell directly to consumers. That meant setting up her own website, figuring out how to ship chocolate across the country without it melting or breaking, marketing and customer service.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kimberly Yang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m the one doing that and it’s not as intuitive as you would think. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Percussive music evoking hitting one’s stride\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But eventually Kimberly found a rhythm. She became known for her limited edition Lunar New Year boxes. The Michelin Guide featured Formosa Chocolates, and Bon Appetit Magazine included them in a list of “The Best Chocolates To Buy Online.” Kimberly must have been doing something right because last year, the State Department asked her to make chocolates for the APEC Summit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kimberly Yang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The ordering went through, and so we made 3,300 boxes of bonbons for the dignitaries.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t think I’ll ever get such a big order again. That was a lot. I mean, and it’s good to know that I can handle it. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">laughs\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kimberly plans to keep experimenting. She’d like to try making chocolates that aren’t even sweet but instead play with spicy or umami flavors. And she’s confident that in the Bay Area, at least, there will be people who will want to try them. She’s got the Mid-Autumn Festival Mooncake bonbons to prove it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kimberly Yang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Growing up, like, I don’t think most people knew what mooncakes were. And maybe most people in America don’t know what mooncakes are, but people in the Bay Area do. It’s really interesting. And it’s nice to not have to explain all of that to people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because in the Bay Area — there’s room for it all: classic bonbons with caramel and raspberry fillings, ganache flavored with pandan, pho or miso. And whatever new invention comes next. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In many ways, the story of chocolate in the Bay Area is the story of the Bay Area. Lots of people from different places coming together, infusing the tastes and textures of their cultures into everything around them. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Relaxed, positive electronic piano music\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was KQED reporter Adhiti Bandlamudi. Thanks to Beth Caissie for asking this week’s question. Have you voted in our February public voting round yet? Here are the questions we’re considering…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anonymous voice 1:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When I visit the Great Mall in Milpitas, I see some signs/plaques within the mall commemorating the Ford Motor Company plant that used to be on that same site. What’s the story behind this former plant?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Anonymous voice 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is at the bottom of the bay and is there any treasure down there?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Anonymous voice 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How are canned/jarred artichoke hearts made? What happens to all the outside leaves? Just how many artichokes are grown in California?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Head to BayCurious.org and cast your vote. You don’t need to sign up or login or anything — just click! It’s so easy. And while you’re there check out the Bay Curious archive for any interesting episodes you may have missed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Olivia\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are several foods that have become synonymous with the San Francisco Bay Area: sourdough bread, Mission-style burritos, dim sum from Chinatown, bahn mi in San José. And then, there’s chocolate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The region is home to some of the oldest American chocolate companies —\u003ca href=\"https://www.ghirardelli.com/\"> Ghirardelli\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.guittard.com/\">Guittard\u003c/a>. But when Bay Curious listener Beth Caissie moved here, she came to realize the Bay Area has a thriving modern chocolate scene, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s like everything from big chocolate makers like Ghirardelli and Guittard to smaller ones like Dandelion,” she said. “And then there’s the guy who makes truffles in North Beach, and there’s a chocolate cafe in South Park.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It got her wondering why this region is so rich with chocolate makers. She asked, “Does it have something to do with the Gold Rush?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Gold Rush does play a part in the Bay Area’s chocolate history, but that’s just the beginning of the region’s rich, chocolatey story.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Selling miners a luxury product\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11707699/why-burlingame-smells-like-chocolate\">Etienne Guittard\u003c/a> immigrated to California from Tournus, France, in search of gold. His uncle owned a chocolate factory, so he brought some bars to trade for mining supplies. After three years of failed mining, Guittard realized other miners would pay a premium for chocolate. He returned to France to perfect his craft and then opened Guittard Chocolate in 1868 on Sansome Street in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In contrast to Guittard, who originally immigrated with dreams of striking gold, \u003ca href=\"https://www.ghirardelli.com/about-ghirardelli-history\">Domenico Ghirardelli\u003c/a> recognized from the beginning that the real money was in provisioning the miners themselves. He opened a general store in Stockton to supply miners with basic food supplies, including chocolate. He already knew how to turn cocoa beans into chocolate bars because of his experience working for chocolatiers in his hometown of Genoa, Italy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the mid-1850s, he established the Ghirardelli Chocolate Company in what is today known as Ghirardelli Square, on the bayfront.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Port cities were often the places that chocolate [businesses] started because you had to get the beans here,” said Greg D’Alesandre, chief sourcing officer at \u003ca href=\"https://www.dandelionchocolate.com/pages/aboutus\">Dandelion Chocolate\u003c/a>. “As opposed to a lot of other industries that could pop up in other parts of the United States, chocolate had to start on the coasts because that’s where you can get the cocoa beans.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And because the raw materials for chocolate were readily available in San Francisco, and companies like Ghirardelli and Guittard were making raw chocolate, it was only natural for chocolatiers to build their businesses here, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Part of the reason See’s Candies has been around for a long time is that they used Guittard chocolate,” D’Alesandre said. “They had a source of chocolate very nearby, so it’s one of those things where industries grow around other [related] industries.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The same general trend happened in East Coast port cities like New York and Boston, leading to candy giants like the Hershey Company, which eventually set up its factory in Pennsylvania. But Hershey marketed its products to children, pumping out high volumes of cheaper, sweet chocolate filled with preservatives to keep chocolate shelf-stable for years. In contrast, on the West Coast, chocolate has always been treated as a “sort of specialty product,” D’Alesandre said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And as the population of San Francisco has grown and changed over the decades, the tradition of specialty chocolate has evolved and diversified its flavors.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A tasty twist on chocolate\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11974602\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11974602\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-34-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Asian woman in chef's whites leans on a table next to a stack of red boxes.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-34-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-34-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-34-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-34-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-34-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-34-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">CEO and Chief Chocolatier Wendy Lieu poses for a portrait at Socola Chocolatier in San Francisco on Jan. 31, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Wendy and Susan Lieu grew up in Santa Rosa, often helping out at the family’s nail salon business. But the two girls preferred to spend their time across the street at the mall. The first store they’d see when entering was See’s Candies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We would sample the same flavors [every time],” Wendy Lieu said. “I wanted to learn how to make [chocolates], so I found a recipe in Gourmet magazine for a mocha espresso chocolate. I was instantly enamored with chocolate and wanted to learn how to make more flavors.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Lieu sisters opened up a stand at their local farmers market in 2001 and started selling chocolates. They started out with similar flavors to the ones they had sampled at See’s Candies, but they worried their business wouldn’t stand out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11974601\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11974601\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-29-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-29-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-29-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-29-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-29-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-29-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-29-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Year of the Dragon boxes sit on a counter at Socola Chocolatier in San Francisco on Jan. 31, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We were never going to fit in,” Lieu said. “If we said the definition for a chocolatier is [someone who] had to make these European-style chocolates with these typical flavors, there’s always going to be someone with better credentials.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, they pivoted into trying flavors outside the box.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I thought it was an interesting challenge to come up with new flavors because, honestly, I was getting pretty bored making the same dark chocolate, raspberry, caramel, milk chocolate flavors that people like,” Lieu said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She started making treats inspired by friends and loyal customers: a handmade marshmallow wrapped in caramel and dipped in chocolate called an “Esther Bomb.” Then came the “Big Fat Susan,” a hunk of ganache dipped in 70%-cocoa Scharffen Berger chocolate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the farmer’s market, customers would regularly ask them about their company’s name — \u003ca href=\"https://www.socolachocolates.com/\">Socola\u003c/a>. It means chocolate in Vietnamese. When people discovered that, they clamored for flavors inspired by Vietnamese food.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Slowly, the sister team started playing with flavors like Vietnamese chicory coffee, durian, passionfruit and more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was more fun and more interesting to come up with flavors that reflected our heritage,” Wendy Lieu said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11974600\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11974600\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-19-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-19-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-19-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-19-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-19-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-19-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240131-SOCOLACHOCOLATIER-19-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">CEO and Chief Chocolatier Wendy Lieu packages The Year of the Dragon Box chocolates at Socola Chocolatier in San Francisco on Jan. 31, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>And customers loved trying something new and different. In 2014, the company hit a milestone by opening a brick-and-mortar store on Rincon Hill in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2020, when the coronavirus pandemic hit, Socola was struggling like many retail businesses. So Wendy Lieu decided to create a box of bonbons with flavors purely inspired by traditional Vietnamese flavors: jasmine tea, pho, sriracha and others. She called it the Little Saigon Box.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was going to bet on myself, my heritage and my culture and see where it goes because I had nothing to lose,” she said. “It’s now our best-selling box.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After releasing the Little Saigon Box, Lieu was also surprised to see more Vietnamese customers try out her chocolates.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Vietnamese people don’t eat chocolate, but then people were showing up and gifting them to their family,” she said. “They would say, ‘This is a really good way to connect to my family.'”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A new wave of Asian American chocolatiers\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11974603\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11974603\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-03-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"An Asian woman in a pink headband and apron leans over rows of red chocolates, carefully adding gold leaf decoration.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-03-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-03-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-03-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-03-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-03-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-03-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Chocolatier Kimberly Yang decorates the Asian ‘Twix’ bar at her business, Formosa Chocolates, in San Rafael on Feb. 1, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Socola was one of the first Vietnamese-run chocolate companies in the country and has inspired other chocolatiers of color to put their own spin on the confection.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kimberly Yang founded \u003ca href=\"https://www.formosachocolates.com/\">Formosa Chocolates\u003c/a> in 2019. Her chocolate shop features Taiwanese-inspired flavors, like Kavalan whisky ganache, calamansi citrus cheesecake bars and flavors she has encountered in her travels around the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I studied chocolate in Belgium, and one of the flavors I fell in love with was orange speculoos,” she said. “So that flavor has become pretty standard for me since then.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Yang’s journey into the chocolate world has been circuitous. She grew up in Oklahoma and studied medicine to become a psychiatrist. She moved to the Bay Area to work for Kaiser in Oakland. But she always had a creative outlet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I love cooking, and when I had vacation, I would do things like go to Italy to learn how to make pasta,” she said. “I saw the International Culinary Center in New York was offering a chocolate boot camp, and I love chocolate. I thought I’ll go to this intensive boot camp and get it out of my system. I came back, and I was still obsessed with chocolate.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11974605\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11974605\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-06-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Pair of gloved hands hold a red heart shaped mold for making chocolates.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-06-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-06-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-06-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-06-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-06-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-06-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Chocolatier Kimberly Yang holds a heart mold at Formosa Chocolates in San Rafael on Feb. 1, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>She started buying textbooks on chocolate making and fantasizing about the various fillings she could create in her home kitchen. But making chocolate outside of a professional kitchen is tricky, and her work in psychiatry was increasingly grueling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It just got to the point where I was feeling burnt out with medicine,” she said. “So I thought, maybe I’d try my hand at starting a chocolate company.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She debuted her bonbons in November 2019 at the \u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/groups/sftangomarathon/\">San Francisco Tango Marathon\u003c/a>. A few months later, the pandemic hit, and she was stuck with lots of chocolate treats and nowhere to sell them. She had to figure out a direct-to-consumer strategy if her fledgling business was going to survive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I wasn’t familiar with mail order businesses, so it was definitely a challenge learning all the little bits, like what’s the best way to ship [chocolates] with ice packs, cushioning, all that stuff,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11974604\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11974604\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-04-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-04-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-04-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-04-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-04-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-04-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/240201-FORMOSACHOCOLATES-04-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Chocolatier Kimberly Yang decorates the Asian ‘Twix’ bar at her business, Formosa Chocolates, in San Rafael on Feb. 1, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But eventually, she found a groove. She released limited edition bonbons for the Lunar New Year and Mid Autumn Festival. \u003ca href=\"https://guide.michelin.com/us/en/article/features/where-to-order-chocolates-for-mother-s-day\">The Michelin Guide\u003c/a> featured Formosa Chocolates in a list of the best chocolates to buy for Mother’s Day. Bon Appetit included them in a list of “\u003ca href=\"https://www.bonappetit.com/story/best-chocolates-to-buy-online\">The Best Chocolates To Buy Online Right Now,”\u003c/a> and last year, the State Department approached her to make more than 3,000 bonbon boxes for the APEC Summit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That was a lot,” she said. “I don’t think I’ll ever get such a big order again. It’s good to know I can handle it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She’s eager to experiment with new flavors, some more savory and spicy than sweet. And she’s confident that, at least in the Bay Area, there will always be customers eager to try new things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Customers are excited to discover the company and support it,” she said. “I’m not so sure I would be able to pull this off elsewhere in the country.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>When you think of food and San Francisco, there are probably a few things that come to mind … sourdough bread from Boudin or Acme, maybe burritos in the Mission or dim sum in Chinatown.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And then … there’s chocolate. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Relaxed piano music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Beth Caissie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Of course, I had heard of Ghirardelli chocolates, everybody, you know, it’s sort of synonymous with San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Beth Caissie moved to San Francisco in the middle of 2020. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Beth Caissie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m a newcomer here and I’m a geologist. I work for the US Geological Survey.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And when she’s not collecting sediment cores from the Bering Sea — something she actually did this past summer — she’s probably eating chocolate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Beth Caissie\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: I’m really into chocolate. I drink a mocha every single morning. And, you know, I feel like there’s two kinds of mocha drinkers. There’s like people who just like something sweet and then there’s people who really like chocolate. And I’m the chocolate variety. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And she noticed San Francisco has a lot of chocolate makers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Beth Caissie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s like everything from big chocolate makers like Ghirardelli and Guittard and then, you know, smaller ones like Dandelion. There’s like a guy who makes truffles in North Beach and there’s like a chocolate cafe in South Park. So I was like, oh, my gosh, what’s happening in San Francisco? Why are there so many chocolate makers? And my question really is like, does it have something to do with the Gold Rush?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious theme music\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is Bay Curious, the podcast that explores the Bay Area one question at a time. I’m Olivia Allen Price. Today, we’re going to dive into the rich Bay Area chocolate scene and understand why San Francisco’s history and location created the perfect conditions for chocolate makers — both then and now. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor message from Sierra Nevada Brewing Company\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To answer Beth Caissie’s question about what has made San Francisco such a notable chocolate town, we turn to — Reporter Adhiti Bandlamudi, who is quite the lover of chocolate herself…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our question-asker, Beth, is on the right track. The Gold Rush does have a part to play in the Bay Area’s chocolate scene. In many ways, the story of chocolate here is one of immigration and ingenuity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Classic Italian lute music to set the scene\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Gold Rush brought around 300,000 people to San Francisco in the mid-1800s from all over the world — and they were \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">hungry\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Domenico Ghirardelli and Etienne Guittard were two European immigrants who opened general stores to meet the need. They would go on to form two of the oldest and most iconic San Francisco chocolate companies. Maybe you’ve heard of them — Ghirardelli and Guittard.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Greg D’Alesandre:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Guittard and Ghiradelli started because they wanted to sell chocolate to people who were getting gold.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Greg D’Alesandre is Dandelion Chocolate’s Chief Sourcing Officer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Greg D’Alesandre: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I sometimes go by chocolate sorcerer\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And he says it makes sense that chocolate would come to San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Greg D’Alesandre: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Port cities were often the places where chocolate started and cocoa started because you had to get the beans here. The beans weren’t being grown here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">East Coast port cities like New York and Boston also had new chocolate companies. But West Coast chocolate makers like Ghirardelli and Guittard set themselves apart by marketing their chocolate as a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">luxury\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> product. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Greg D’Alesandre:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Much the same way people did with coffee.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Old Ghirardelli Ad: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“This Ghirardelli square is no ordinary chocolate… ”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Big chocolate companies like Guittard and Ghirardelli got the ball rolling, making raw chocolate, from the cocoa bean into bars. It was only natural for other confectioners, or people who make things out of the chocolate, to open shop in the same area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Greg D’Alesandre:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A lot of people know See’s Candy. They use Guittard chocolate. Like they had a source of chocolate very nearby. And so it’s one of these things of like, you know like industries grow around the industries they need to support them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And here’s where San Francisco’s chocolate history gets really interesting. We had access to the cocoa beans through shipping. And old-school chocolate companies making high quality raw chocolate. But it’s the creativity and knowledge of San Francisco’s diverse population — folks from Europe, Asia, Latin America and beyond — that elevated those raw materials into truly magical chocolate treats. If you look at the many chocolatiers in the Bay Area today, many of them have built their businesses by putting their own cultural twist on chocolate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Percussive music playing over the sound of a person scooping chocolate chips into a bowl\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m standing inside Socola, a chocolate shop in downtown San Francisco. Wendy Lieu, the founder of the company, opens huge boxes filled with Guittard chocolate chips — called “callets” — and scoops them into a bowl to start melting them down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Scooping sound of chocolate chips continues\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She started Socola in 2001 with her sister, Susan. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wendy Lieu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We were teenagers at the time, growing up in Santa Rosa. Our parents had a nail salon, so that meant every day after school, we’d go there to help out. And of course, we really didn’t enjoy doing that. We’d rather go across the street to the mall, and the first store in the mall was See’s Candies.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wendy and Susan tried all the samples and soon got used to the classic flavors of vanilla and chocolate buttercream, peanut butter, butterscotch — you know the drill. One day, Wendy decided to try making her own chocolate treats. She started with the bonbon, a chocolate shell with a ganache center. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wendy Lieu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I found a recipe in Gourmet magazine for a mocha espresso chocolate. And I was instantly, like, enamored with chocolate and wanting to learn how to make it. Make more chocolates in more flavors.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She and Susan started selling chocolate at their local farmer’s market stand. At first, they were making the same flavors they had seen at See’s Candies, but they felt like they were playing a game they’d never win. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wendy Lieu: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s going to be someone with better credentials and trained skills of like, ‘Oh, I, we trained with this person,’ and you know that for a chocolatier, that kind of sounds better. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When they started, Wendy and Susan didn’t have all that fancy training. So the sister team decided to pivot. Farmer’s market customers were curious about the company’s name — Socola means chocolate in Vietnamese — and when they found out, they’d ask for Vietnamese flavors. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wendy Lieu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like, “Oh, make a coffee flavor.” And I was like\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, that sounds interesting. But I also don’t want it to be boring. So can we make it Vietnamese coffee and add some condensed milk to it?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Percussive music evoking creativity begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then we kind of just started doing that where someone was like, “Oh, make us spicy chocolate.” And I was like, “I won’t make chili, but I’ll make Sriracha.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">”\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A few years after that farmer’s market start in 2001, Socola started releasing bonbons with flavors like durian, passion fruit— even pho, like the Vietnamese soup. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wendy Lieu: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then it was more fun and more interesting to come up with flavors that reflected our heritage. Right? So it was like, let’s make chocolates that flavors that don’t exist. And then no one can compare those. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As I talk to Wendy, she hands me one of her latest creations: a pandan coconut bonbon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi (in tape)\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: (\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">crunch noise as she bites into chocolate\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">) Mmm! Wow.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The pandan is so subtle and yet it kind of hits you at the end. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I can’t totally figure out how the chocolate flavors are working. Honestly, it’s just sorcery.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2014, Socola hit a milestone, opening a brick-and-mortar shop in Rincon Hill.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wendy Lieu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I feel a lot of happiness, representing our heritage and our culture and that, you know, we’re, you know, part of mainstream chocolate now. And before then, there were no other Vietnamese chocolatiers.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music evoking the Lunar New Year\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">San Francisco’s early chocolate makers were predominantly from European countries. But that’s slowly changing as pioneers like Wendy and Susan at Socola pave the way for more experimentation. In the last decades, the Bay Area has seen an explosion of new chocolatiers of color, many of them women, who are boldly playing with flavors in these bite-sized, edible pieces of art. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fade in sounds from a visit to Formosa Chocolates\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kimberly Yang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is toffee and black sesame and dark chocolate. And, just in the shape of a dragon for the Lunar New Year.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Kimberly Yang, a Taiwanese American chocolatier based in San Rafael. She owns the company Formosa Chocolates. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kimberly Yang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Formosa is the old name for Taiwan. When the Portuguese sailors first saw the coastline, they said it was a beautiful island.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kimberly grew up in Oklahoma and, like so many first-generation immigrants, struggled to claim her cultural identity in such a different place. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kimberly Yang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I didn’t have a lot of Taiwanese friends, let alone Asian friends. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She became a psychiatrist and moved to the Bay Area for a job with Kaiser. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kimberly Yang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When I moved to the Bay Area, I just started to notice that there’s more of this community\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>Psychiatry was exhausting, so to get away from her stress, Kimberly took chocolate-making classes.\u003c/span> She discovered a passion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kimberly Yang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It just got to the point where I was just feeling kind of burnt out with medicine, and I thought maybe try my hand at starting a chocolate company.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sounds from Yang’s kitchen\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kimberly’s industrial kitchen is vast and gleaming. She’s piping fine lines of chocolate onto her “Asian Twix bars” — one of her signature candies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kimberly Yang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Twix is one of my favorite candy bars to eat, and I think so many times customers ask, like, so what’s Taiwanese about your company? And mostly it’s me. I’m Taiwanese. But I thought I needed to lean more into Asian-inspired flavors. And I thought miso and caramel goes together so wonderfully. And I’ve been wanting to do more things with black sesame, so it’s just made it black sesame shortbread.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some of her other innovative flavors include balsamic vinegar caramel and strawberry bonbons shaped like an anatomically correct heart, gold-dusted bonbons with Taiwanese Kavalan whiskey and honey ganache. When she started the company in the fall of 2019 she was full of hope. Then the pandemic hit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kimberly Yang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, initially, I just had all this inventory on my hands and it’s like, oh, gosh, there’s nothing more depressing than a chocolatier with nobody to sell their chocolates to. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She had to find a way to sell directly to consumers. That meant setting up her own website, figuring out how to ship chocolate across the country without it melting or breaking, marketing and customer service.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kimberly Yang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m the one doing that and it’s not as intuitive as you would think. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Percussive music evoking hitting one’s stride\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But eventually Kimberly found a rhythm. She became known for her limited edition Lunar New Year boxes. The Michelin Guide featured Formosa Chocolates, and Bon Appetit Magazine included them in a list of “The Best Chocolates To Buy Online.” Kimberly must have been doing something right because last year, the State Department asked her to make chocolates for the APEC Summit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kimberly Yang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The ordering went through, and so we made 3,300 boxes of bonbons for the dignitaries.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t think I’ll ever get such a big order again. That was a lot. I mean, and it’s good to know that I can handle it. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">laughs\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kimberly plans to keep experimenting. She’d like to try making chocolates that aren’t even sweet but instead play with spicy or umami flavors. And she’s confident that in the Bay Area, at least, there will be people who will want to try them. She’s got the Mid-Autumn Festival Mooncake bonbons to prove it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kimberly Yang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Growing up, like, I don’t think most people knew what mooncakes were. And maybe most people in America don’t know what mooncakes are, but people in the Bay Area do. It’s really interesting. And it’s nice to not have to explain all of that to people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because in the Bay Area — there’s room for it all: classic bonbons with caramel and raspberry fillings, ganache flavored with pandan, pho or miso. And whatever new invention comes next. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In many ways, the story of chocolate in the Bay Area is the story of the Bay Area. Lots of people from different places coming together, infusing the tastes and textures of their cultures into everything around them. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Relaxed, positive electronic piano music\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was KQED reporter Adhiti Bandlamudi. Thanks to Beth Caissie for asking this week’s question. Have you voted in our February public voting round yet? Here are the questions we’re considering…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anonymous voice 1:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When I visit the Great Mall in Milpitas, I see some signs/plaques within the mall commemorating the Ford Motor Company plant that used to be on that same site. What’s the story behind this former plant?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Anonymous voice 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is at the bottom of the bay and is there any treasure down there?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Anonymous voice 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How are canned/jarred artichoke hearts made? What happens to all the outside leaves? Just how many artichokes are grown in California?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Head to BayCurious.org and cast your vote. You don’t need to sign up or login or anything — just click! It’s so easy. And while you’re there check out the Bay Curious archive for any interesting episodes you may have missed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Olivia\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California’s primary is just around the corner, on March 5, 2024. This year, there’s a statewide Proposition on your primary ballot, but don’t worry we’ve got you covered. Prop. 1 asks voters two big questions: Should mental health funding be used for housing? And should the state borrow money to build more housing and treatment facilities? There’s tons of interesting stuff to dig into on this one.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> California. Primary day is just around the corner on March 5th, and this year Californians have a lot to consider. We’ve got the presidential primary. Of course, there’s a contentious Senate race and lots happening on the local level. And then we’ve got proposition one all about funding for mental health care and housing for the state’s most vulnerable residents. Here’s how prop one will read on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over:\u003c/strong> Authorizes $6.38 billion in bonds to build mental health treatment facilities for those with mental health and substance use challenges. It provides housing for the homeless.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Now, there are two big questions being asked in this prop should mental health funding be used for housing? And should the state borrow money to build more housing and treatment facilities? There is lots of interesting stuff to discuss here. We’ll dig in just ahead on be curious. I’m Olivia Allen Price. It is always a pleasure when prop voting time rolls around, because it means I get to talk to KQED politics correspondent guy Maserati. Hey, Guy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Hey, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> It’s been a minute, but here we are in a big election year. One of the first decisions that California voters are going to make is which way to go on prop one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> That’s right. Proposition one is actually two pretty big ideas that are rolled up into one proposition. So it’s a bond measure. It’s also a reallocation of existing funds. So this was placed on the ballot by the state legislature because they need to go to the voters to get approval if they want to issue a bond. They also need to go to the voters to make a change to a ballot measure that voters previously approved back in 2004. So here we are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We’ll go step by step through all the moving parts of this one. But first, guy, can you walk us through the problems that proposition one is aiming to solve?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah. The big idea behind the proposition is focusing state dollars on people who are experiencing homelessness and who have severe behavioral health issues. So we know Californians who are experiencing homelessness. It’s not a monolith. You have people who maybe, you know, fell behind on rent, maybe people who are just looking for an affordable place to live. Prop one is not focused on those folks. But, there are a lot of people who are experiencing homelessness in California who have added challenges on top of that. UCSF did their massive study of the state’s homeless population. They found 27% of people living without shelter have been hospitalized for a mental health issue. They also found 65% of those people who are living without shelter have reported heavy substance abuse. These are the kinds of people who are prop one is aimed at helping.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So the idea is that of all the people in the state who are facing mental health challenges, these Californians, the ones who are living on the streets or at risk of living on the streets, are the ones who need to be prioritized. And so that’s where you get to kind of the political piece of all of this, which is that homelessness is a top priority for voters, especially kind of the visible suffering of people that you see on the streets. That’s become such a huge political issue, and it’s become a big issue for the man who is backing prop one. Governor Gavin Newsom, this is part of his kind of big swing to try to fix this issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Okay. And broadly, what are we considering in proposition one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> So voters are being asked if the state should borrow money to build treatment facilities, build supportive housing, and if it should also change how existing mental health money gets spent, mainly by using more of that mental health money to build housing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Let’s dig into the details a bit more now. Like we said a minute ago, this prop has sort of two arms. And I want to start with that first arm the bond. Now a quick bond refresher. A bond is essentially a loan the government takes out to fund certain projects. In this case, it’s a loan the state will pay back with interest over the next 30 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right. So prop one would allow the state to borrow money by issuing $6.38 billion in bonds. Most of that money, about $4.4 billion, is going to go towards building treatment facilities. Now, this is for, like we mentioned, the thousands of Californians who have mental health needs, who have substance abuse issues, who are at risk or are actually living on the street. So that could be kind of a short term crisis care facility or longer term, you know, residential facilities, rehab communities and even, you know, some outpatient services. So that’s about 4.4 billion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then the rest of the measure, roughly 2 billion, that’s going to go towards building affordable apartments that come with kind of onsite behavioral health services. Of that 2 billion. Now we’re breaking this down further. Of that 2 billion. About 1 billion would be specifically for veterans who have behavioral health challenges. So again, we’re talking about helping people who are most visibly suffering, people who are having, you know, psychotic episodes on the street, people who are living in tents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So what is all this investment actually going to do?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Supporters of prop one say by spending this bond money, they’re going to be able to create 4350 housing units, another 6800 treatment slots. Obviously, this is all a drop in the bucket for the overall homeless population in California, which is estimated to be more than 180,000 people. But again, the idea of prop one is a focus less focus on a subgroup of people who are experiencing homelessness. Newsom says prop one is the solution to the decades of unintended consequences that kicked off when California closed its state mental hospitals, but didn’t create alternative places for people to live and get care. Here’s Newsom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gavin Newsom:\u003c/strong> The reforms that took place in the late 50s, in the 60s and the 70s, that bipartisan endeavor around deinstitutionalization. We had a peak 37,000, beds in the state of California in the 60s, 37,000 beds. Today, it’s about 5500.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We actually do have a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11209729/did-the-emptying-of-mental-hospitals-contribute-to-homelessness-here\">Bay Curious episode about the closing of state mental hospitals and its impact on homelessness\u003c/a>. We’ll put a link in the show notes and transcript for this episode if you want to check that out. Guy, is there more detail on how this money will be allocated, like specific projects or even how much would go to, say, Alameda County versus Los Angeles County or anything like that? Right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> That all hasn’t been laid out yet. I will say Newsom’s chief of staff, toxic KQED last summer about this prop. She said the administration, even though this had just started to move towards the ballot, they’re already looking at locations to build or refurbish, potential places with this bond money. I think really acknowledging that the process of building anything in California just takes a really long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> [00:06:50] Another discussion for another time. I think it’s always worth remembering that bond money isn’t free if voters approve it. How will this bond impact Californians over time?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right. So California would have to repay the bonds back over 30 years out of the state’s general fund. That’s where all our tax money ends up. And that works out to about $310 million a year, which because we’re talking about a really massive state budget, it’s actually only about one half of 1% of the general fund. Now, the state would have to pay interest on top of all of that. So over the course of three decades, we’d pay about $9 billion, not adjusted for inflation, to pay back what is a $6.38 billion bond on the ballot?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Okay, now on to the second arm of proposition one. So this measure would change how money collected for mental health services under Prop 63, which passed in 2004, is distributed. Okay. Start by taking us back 20 years to when voters approved the Mental Health Services Act.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, this was really wild for me. Going back and looking at the coverage of that campaign back in 2004, because the issues that the supporters of Prop 63 were trying to address are so similar to what supporters of prop one are talking about right now. It’s basically a feeling that since those state hospitals closed, California really stopped providing the necessary care for people who have these severe mental health challenges. And the result has been those same people end up on the streets, in tents in our county jails. So what the Mental Health Services Act did back in 2004 was create this 1% tax on income over $1 million. It’s since been kind of colloquially known as the millionaires tax. And that created this new bucket of money that the state could use for mental health services.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So voters passed the Mental Health Services Act, which generates between two and a half and $3 billion per year. And that money now funds about a third of mental health services budgets for counties around the state. What counties especially like about this money is they have a lot of say in how it gets used. There aren’t a lot of strings attached.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Darrell Steinberg, who is currently the mayor of Sacramento back then in 2004, he was in the legislature and actually helped write the original Mental Health Services Act. He says the measure has been successful. It’s paid for a lot of services all across the state, from counseling to drop in centers to early intervention, having people come in to schools and classrooms and help teachers identify kids who might have mental health challenges. But he says the reason that all these years later, he’s now one of the leading supporters of changing it is because there hasn’t been enough focus on housing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Darrell Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I think the counties have actually spent the money well, but what they haven’t done is spent it in a way that was focused on the most critical issues affecting our state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> So the trade off that supporters of prop one are pitching to voters is basically, let’s give up the flexibility in how this money is spent in exchange for adding greater focus, specifically focus on housing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Tell me more about how they would limit flexibility that the counties have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> So under prop one, if it passes, counties would be required to spend 30% of that millionaire tax money they get from the state, specifically on housing. So that could mean providing rental subsidies, building new housing, converting things like motels into housing with supportive services. So this would leave counties then with less money to spend on some of the other programs and services they’ve been providing in the mental health space. So they need to find the money elsewhere. Or in the case a lot of opponents are concerned about, they would need to scale back or cut some of these programs. Paul Simmons is one of the leaders of the No on prop one campaign. He recently led Depression and Bipolar Support Alliance California, which provides peer support for people with depression bipolar disorder. He says service providers in similar positions are really worried.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Simmons:\u003c/strong> Adult respite centers and wellness centers are very, very much at risk. All peer support programs are just scared to death right now that they’re going to lose any funding they got from from the MSA funding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> And you also have county governments who are really concerned about prop one, because right now they’re the ones that are getting this millionaires tax money. They are concerned that more of this money would go to the state. The state wants more say on how the millionaires tax money is spent. So you have many county supervisors who have come out against prop one. They’re concerned that if it passes, they’re going to have to cancel contracts with community based organizations or even perhaps reduce county staff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Right now, 95% of that million in our tax money goes to counties. What would that look like under prop one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Under prop one, it would be more like 90% with the state using its cut for things like increasing just the number of mental health care workers. And one other change I should note here is that counties under prop one would be able to spend some of this money on housing for folks who just have drug and alcohol addiction challenges, you know, substance abuse issues. They may not have a dual diagnosis, mental health issue. And right now, all the Mental Health Services Act funding under Prop 63, the millionaires tax, all of that has to be used for people with mental health conditions. This would actually change the name of the entire thing to the Behavioral Health Services Act.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I see, so by calling it the behavioral rather than the Mental Health Services Act, it really broadens out the group of people who could be served by the money guy. Would this increase taxes for anybody?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> No. And this is actually what makes this kind of controversial. It doesn’t increase the millionaires tax that funds the current Mental Health Services Act. So opponents of prop one say you have the same pot of money. You’re just stretching it in all these new directions by trying to focus on housing. Now, supporters like Newsom will say, that’s not the whole picture. There are all these other initiatives happening, you know, like Cal Aim, which try to get, for example, health plans to pay for some of these mental health services that prop 63, the Mental Health Services Act, has been doing for the last two. Years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> What else do opponents have to say about this one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> So I think just like we broke down the measure into a couple parts, it might be helpful to break down where opponents are coming from on this pretty, pretty complex measure. So let’s start with the bonds. You have the state borrowing a lot of money to build these treatment facilities, supportive apartments. So you have conservatives, anti-tax groups like the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association. They oppose taking on that debt. And then there’s other conservatives who kind of jump on and say, we also don’t agree with the Housing First policy here, which is when someone with, say, a substance abuse problem is given housing before going through treatment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then there’s another piece of this, which is about what kind of housing can be built with this bond money, because prop one actually allows the money to be spent on locked facilities. These are, you know, places where people might get placed as a result of a conservatorship, where treatment is not voluntary. And this is pretty controversial. You get opposition not from conservatives on this, but you get opposition from groups like Disability Rights California, for example, who say these kind of lock facilities violate civil liberties and don’t have proven outcomes. Now, supporters of prop one say this is not going to be a huge piece of all the new facilities that get built, but that’s really an open question going forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And what about the changes to how the existing prop 63 millionaires tax money is spent? Who is opposed to that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that piece of prop one is opposed by some service providers, folks like Paul Simmons, who say if you’re focusing on helping people who are the most visible have the most acute needs, that’s a poor investment. If you’re taking that money from programs that try to provide help with mental health, substance abuse, when people are in school or when they’re in counseling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Simmons:\u003c/strong> But really, what they’re doing, from my perspective, is to take the money from the early intervention, take it from the upstream part and throw it all into downstream. You know, where people are having more trouble and in fact, forcing more people downstream.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> And so folks like Simmons are worried that if California puts less funding toward preventative upstream programs that support people you know, before their problems are most severe, we’re actually going to worsen some of the state’s problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And who is in support of proposition one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the biggest name in support is Governor Gavin Newsom. You know, for all the attention he’s gotten on political stunts, campaigning across the country, debating Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, the biggest policy focus he’s had in Sacramento has been at this intersection of behavioral health and homelessness. So just in the last few years, the governor signed bills to create care courts. So this kind of compels treatment, housing for people with severe mental illness. He also signed bills making it easier to place people in a conservative ship. Prop one is the latest step in that direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gavin Newsom:\u003c/strong> This is, I think, the last big piece. We’ve got we’ve just we’ve radically changed the way we’re doing business. We created more flexibility, more tools, more accountability, more resources. Now we just we need more beds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> And I think what’s notable about prop one is just the size of the coalition supporting it. So both these ideas, the bond measure and then these changes to mental health spending. They both passed with huge majorities in the legislature last year. Support from Democrats, support from Republicans. Now, you might say like, oh, when the governor comes out and says, this is my top priority, everyone’s going to get in line. But I also think it’s a fact that the broken status quo, we see people just visibly suffering on the street. That touches a lot of different parts of society. So you have, you know, leaders of California hospitals supporting this. They see many of these residents end up in their emergency rooms. You have groups representing firefighters, law enforcement behind this. They often get called to respond when someone is having a mental health episode. And then you have what might be the biggest group of backers, which are mayors. You know, they feel directly, you know, accountable to voters for what residents see on the street. And it’s why you have mayors like London Breed in San Francisco so vocally in support of prop one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>London Breed:\u003c/strong> I was just out in the Tenderloin and San Francisco, and it is clear that we need people to get the support that they need, especially those suffering from mental health and substance use disorder. Let’s get into campaign spending. What does it look like on this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Prop spending is very lopsided for this prop. You have supporters having raised more than $11 million to help push this measure through. Opponents, on the other hand, just about $1,000.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Wow. So really kind of David and Goliath on the on spending.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> On the spending front for sure. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right. Well, KQED political correspondent Guy Maserati, always a pleasure. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Thanks, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> In a nutshell, a vote yes on proposition one means you’d like to see funds from an existing tax on millionaires used not just for mental health care, but also people facing drug or alcohol challenges. You’d also like those funds to be used for housing people needing mental health or substance abuse care. Finally, you’d like California to borrow $6.4 billion to pay for more mental health and substance abuse treatment facilities and housing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A vote no on proposition one means you’d like to keep the Mental Health Services Act in its current form, and or you do not want California to issue that $6.4 billion bond.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All right. We really hope that helped you make sense of what you’ll be voting on. Again, Election Day is March 5th, but ballots should be in your mailbox soon if they haven’t arrived yet. If you found this episode helpful, do us a favor and tell your friends all about it or share it out on your social media accounts. Thanks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’re already gearing up for our full sized Prop Fest series during the upcoming general election. If you’ve got questions about a prop, another race, or any other voting issue in California, head over to Bay curious.org and use the form at the top of the page to send that question our way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay curious is made in San Francisco at member supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Bill and me Olivia Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chen, Katie Springer, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanford, Hollie Kernan and the whole KQED family. I’m Olivia Ellen Price. Best of luck in your decision.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"excerpt": "Prop 1 asks voters two big questions: Should mental health funding be used for housing? And should the state borrow money to build more housing and treatment facilities?",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California’s primary is just around the corner, on March 5, 2024. This year, there’s a statewide Proposition on your primary ballot, but don’t worry we’ve got you covered. Prop. 1 asks voters two big questions: Should mental health funding be used for housing? And should the state borrow money to build more housing and treatment facilities? There’s tons of interesting stuff to dig into on this one.\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> California. Primary day is just around the corner on March 5th, and this year Californians have a lot to consider. We’ve got the presidential primary. Of course, there’s a contentious Senate race and lots happening on the local level. And then we’ve got proposition one all about funding for mental health care and housing for the state’s most vulnerable residents. Here’s how prop one will read on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over:\u003c/strong> Authorizes $6.38 billion in bonds to build mental health treatment facilities for those with mental health and substance use challenges. It provides housing for the homeless.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Now, there are two big questions being asked in this prop should mental health funding be used for housing? And should the state borrow money to build more housing and treatment facilities? There is lots of interesting stuff to discuss here. We’ll dig in just ahead on be curious. I’m Olivia Allen Price. It is always a pleasure when prop voting time rolls around, because it means I get to talk to KQED politics correspondent guy Maserati. Hey, Guy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Hey, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> It’s been a minute, but here we are in a big election year. One of the first decisions that California voters are going to make is which way to go on prop one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> That’s right. Proposition one is actually two pretty big ideas that are rolled up into one proposition. So it’s a bond measure. It’s also a reallocation of existing funds. So this was placed on the ballot by the state legislature because they need to go to the voters to get approval if they want to issue a bond. They also need to go to the voters to make a change to a ballot measure that voters previously approved back in 2004. So here we are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We’ll go step by step through all the moving parts of this one. But first, guy, can you walk us through the problems that proposition one is aiming to solve?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah. The big idea behind the proposition is focusing state dollars on people who are experiencing homelessness and who have severe behavioral health issues. So we know Californians who are experiencing homelessness. It’s not a monolith. You have people who maybe, you know, fell behind on rent, maybe people who are just looking for an affordable place to live. Prop one is not focused on those folks. But, there are a lot of people who are experiencing homelessness in California who have added challenges on top of that. UCSF did their massive study of the state’s homeless population. They found 27% of people living without shelter have been hospitalized for a mental health issue. They also found 65% of those people who are living without shelter have reported heavy substance abuse. These are the kinds of people who are prop one is aimed at helping.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So the idea is that of all the people in the state who are facing mental health challenges, these Californians, the ones who are living on the streets or at risk of living on the streets, are the ones who need to be prioritized. And so that’s where you get to kind of the political piece of all of this, which is that homelessness is a top priority for voters, especially kind of the visible suffering of people that you see on the streets. That’s become such a huge political issue, and it’s become a big issue for the man who is backing prop one. Governor Gavin Newsom, this is part of his kind of big swing to try to fix this issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Okay. And broadly, what are we considering in proposition one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> So voters are being asked if the state should borrow money to build treatment facilities, build supportive housing, and if it should also change how existing mental health money gets spent, mainly by using more of that mental health money to build housing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Let’s dig into the details a bit more now. Like we said a minute ago, this prop has sort of two arms. And I want to start with that first arm the bond. Now a quick bond refresher. A bond is essentially a loan the government takes out to fund certain projects. In this case, it’s a loan the state will pay back with interest over the next 30 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right. So prop one would allow the state to borrow money by issuing $6.38 billion in bonds. Most of that money, about $4.4 billion, is going to go towards building treatment facilities. Now, this is for, like we mentioned, the thousands of Californians who have mental health needs, who have substance abuse issues, who are at risk or are actually living on the street. So that could be kind of a short term crisis care facility or longer term, you know, residential facilities, rehab communities and even, you know, some outpatient services. So that’s about 4.4 billion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then the rest of the measure, roughly 2 billion, that’s going to go towards building affordable apartments that come with kind of onsite behavioral health services. Of that 2 billion. Now we’re breaking this down further. Of that 2 billion. About 1 billion would be specifically for veterans who have behavioral health challenges. So again, we’re talking about helping people who are most visibly suffering, people who are having, you know, psychotic episodes on the street, people who are living in tents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So what is all this investment actually going to do?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Supporters of prop one say by spending this bond money, they’re going to be able to create 4350 housing units, another 6800 treatment slots. Obviously, this is all a drop in the bucket for the overall homeless population in California, which is estimated to be more than 180,000 people. But again, the idea of prop one is a focus less focus on a subgroup of people who are experiencing homelessness. Newsom says prop one is the solution to the decades of unintended consequences that kicked off when California closed its state mental hospitals, but didn’t create alternative places for people to live and get care. Here’s Newsom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gavin Newsom:\u003c/strong> The reforms that took place in the late 50s, in the 60s and the 70s, that bipartisan endeavor around deinstitutionalization. We had a peak 37,000, beds in the state of California in the 60s, 37,000 beds. Today, it’s about 5500.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We actually do have a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11209729/did-the-emptying-of-mental-hospitals-contribute-to-homelessness-here\">Bay Curious episode about the closing of state mental hospitals and its impact on homelessness\u003c/a>. We’ll put a link in the show notes and transcript for this episode if you want to check that out. Guy, is there more detail on how this money will be allocated, like specific projects or even how much would go to, say, Alameda County versus Los Angeles County or anything like that? Right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> That all hasn’t been laid out yet. I will say Newsom’s chief of staff, toxic KQED last summer about this prop. She said the administration, even though this had just started to move towards the ballot, they’re already looking at locations to build or refurbish, potential places with this bond money. I think really acknowledging that the process of building anything in California just takes a really long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> [00:06:50] Another discussion for another time. I think it’s always worth remembering that bond money isn’t free if voters approve it. How will this bond impact Californians over time?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right. So California would have to repay the bonds back over 30 years out of the state’s general fund. That’s where all our tax money ends up. And that works out to about $310 million a year, which because we’re talking about a really massive state budget, it’s actually only about one half of 1% of the general fund. Now, the state would have to pay interest on top of all of that. So over the course of three decades, we’d pay about $9 billion, not adjusted for inflation, to pay back what is a $6.38 billion bond on the ballot?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Okay, now on to the second arm of proposition one. So this measure would change how money collected for mental health services under Prop 63, which passed in 2004, is distributed. Okay. Start by taking us back 20 years to when voters approved the Mental Health Services Act.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, this was really wild for me. Going back and looking at the coverage of that campaign back in 2004, because the issues that the supporters of Prop 63 were trying to address are so similar to what supporters of prop one are talking about right now. It’s basically a feeling that since those state hospitals closed, California really stopped providing the necessary care for people who have these severe mental health challenges. And the result has been those same people end up on the streets, in tents in our county jails. So what the Mental Health Services Act did back in 2004 was create this 1% tax on income over $1 million. It’s since been kind of colloquially known as the millionaires tax. And that created this new bucket of money that the state could use for mental health services.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So voters passed the Mental Health Services Act, which generates between two and a half and $3 billion per year. And that money now funds about a third of mental health services budgets for counties around the state. What counties especially like about this money is they have a lot of say in how it gets used. There aren’t a lot of strings attached.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Darrell Steinberg, who is currently the mayor of Sacramento back then in 2004, he was in the legislature and actually helped write the original Mental Health Services Act. He says the measure has been successful. It’s paid for a lot of services all across the state, from counseling to drop in centers to early intervention, having people come in to schools and classrooms and help teachers identify kids who might have mental health challenges. But he says the reason that all these years later, he’s now one of the leading supporters of changing it is because there hasn’t been enough focus on housing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Darrell Steinberg:\u003c/strong> I think the counties have actually spent the money well, but what they haven’t done is spent it in a way that was focused on the most critical issues affecting our state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> So the trade off that supporters of prop one are pitching to voters is basically, let’s give up the flexibility in how this money is spent in exchange for adding greater focus, specifically focus on housing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Tell me more about how they would limit flexibility that the counties have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> So under prop one, if it passes, counties would be required to spend 30% of that millionaire tax money they get from the state, specifically on housing. So that could mean providing rental subsidies, building new housing, converting things like motels into housing with supportive services. So this would leave counties then with less money to spend on some of the other programs and services they’ve been providing in the mental health space. So they need to find the money elsewhere. Or in the case a lot of opponents are concerned about, they would need to scale back or cut some of these programs. Paul Simmons is one of the leaders of the No on prop one campaign. He recently led Depression and Bipolar Support Alliance California, which provides peer support for people with depression bipolar disorder. He says service providers in similar positions are really worried.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Simmons:\u003c/strong> Adult respite centers and wellness centers are very, very much at risk. All peer support programs are just scared to death right now that they’re going to lose any funding they got from from the MSA funding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> And you also have county governments who are really concerned about prop one, because right now they’re the ones that are getting this millionaires tax money. They are concerned that more of this money would go to the state. The state wants more say on how the millionaires tax money is spent. So you have many county supervisors who have come out against prop one. They’re concerned that if it passes, they’re going to have to cancel contracts with community based organizations or even perhaps reduce county staff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Right now, 95% of that million in our tax money goes to counties. What would that look like under prop one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Under prop one, it would be more like 90% with the state using its cut for things like increasing just the number of mental health care workers. And one other change I should note here is that counties under prop one would be able to spend some of this money on housing for folks who just have drug and alcohol addiction challenges, you know, substance abuse issues. They may not have a dual diagnosis, mental health issue. And right now, all the Mental Health Services Act funding under Prop 63, the millionaires tax, all of that has to be used for people with mental health conditions. This would actually change the name of the entire thing to the Behavioral Health Services Act.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I see, so by calling it the behavioral rather than the Mental Health Services Act, it really broadens out the group of people who could be served by the money guy. Would this increase taxes for anybody?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> No. And this is actually what makes this kind of controversial. It doesn’t increase the millionaires tax that funds the current Mental Health Services Act. So opponents of prop one say you have the same pot of money. You’re just stretching it in all these new directions by trying to focus on housing. Now, supporters like Newsom will say, that’s not the whole picture. There are all these other initiatives happening, you know, like Cal Aim, which try to get, for example, health plans to pay for some of these mental health services that prop 63, the Mental Health Services Act, has been doing for the last two. Years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> What else do opponents have to say about this one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> So I think just like we broke down the measure into a couple parts, it might be helpful to break down where opponents are coming from on this pretty, pretty complex measure. So let’s start with the bonds. You have the state borrowing a lot of money to build these treatment facilities, supportive apartments. So you have conservatives, anti-tax groups like the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association. They oppose taking on that debt. And then there’s other conservatives who kind of jump on and say, we also don’t agree with the Housing First policy here, which is when someone with, say, a substance abuse problem is given housing before going through treatment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then there’s another piece of this, which is about what kind of housing can be built with this bond money, because prop one actually allows the money to be spent on locked facilities. These are, you know, places where people might get placed as a result of a conservatorship, where treatment is not voluntary. And this is pretty controversial. You get opposition not from conservatives on this, but you get opposition from groups like Disability Rights California, for example, who say these kind of lock facilities violate civil liberties and don’t have proven outcomes. Now, supporters of prop one say this is not going to be a huge piece of all the new facilities that get built, but that’s really an open question going forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And what about the changes to how the existing prop 63 millionaires tax money is spent? Who is opposed to that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that piece of prop one is opposed by some service providers, folks like Paul Simmons, who say if you’re focusing on helping people who are the most visible have the most acute needs, that’s a poor investment. If you’re taking that money from programs that try to provide help with mental health, substance abuse, when people are in school or when they’re in counseling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Simmons:\u003c/strong> But really, what they’re doing, from my perspective, is to take the money from the early intervention, take it from the upstream part and throw it all into downstream. You know, where people are having more trouble and in fact, forcing more people downstream.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> And so folks like Simmons are worried that if California puts less funding toward preventative upstream programs that support people you know, before their problems are most severe, we’re actually going to worsen some of the state’s problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And who is in support of proposition one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the biggest name in support is Governor Gavin Newsom. You know, for all the attention he’s gotten on political stunts, campaigning across the country, debating Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, the biggest policy focus he’s had in Sacramento has been at this intersection of behavioral health and homelessness. So just in the last few years, the governor signed bills to create care courts. So this kind of compels treatment, housing for people with severe mental illness. He also signed bills making it easier to place people in a conservative ship. Prop one is the latest step in that direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gavin Newsom:\u003c/strong> This is, I think, the last big piece. We’ve got we’ve just we’ve radically changed the way we’re doing business. We created more flexibility, more tools, more accountability, more resources. Now we just we need more beds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> And I think what’s notable about prop one is just the size of the coalition supporting it. So both these ideas, the bond measure and then these changes to mental health spending. They both passed with huge majorities in the legislature last year. Support from Democrats, support from Republicans. Now, you might say like, oh, when the governor comes out and says, this is my top priority, everyone’s going to get in line. But I also think it’s a fact that the broken status quo, we see people just visibly suffering on the street. That touches a lot of different parts of society. So you have, you know, leaders of California hospitals supporting this. They see many of these residents end up in their emergency rooms. You have groups representing firefighters, law enforcement behind this. They often get called to respond when someone is having a mental health episode. And then you have what might be the biggest group of backers, which are mayors. You know, they feel directly, you know, accountable to voters for what residents see on the street. And it’s why you have mayors like London Breed in San Francisco so vocally in support of prop one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>London Breed:\u003c/strong> I was just out in the Tenderloin and San Francisco, and it is clear that we need people to get the support that they need, especially those suffering from mental health and substance use disorder. Let’s get into campaign spending. What does it look like on this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Prop spending is very lopsided for this prop. You have supporters having raised more than $11 million to help push this measure through. Opponents, on the other hand, just about $1,000.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Wow. So really kind of David and Goliath on the on spending.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> On the spending front for sure. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right. Well, KQED political correspondent Guy Maserati, always a pleasure. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Thanks, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> In a nutshell, a vote yes on proposition one means you’d like to see funds from an existing tax on millionaires used not just for mental health care, but also people facing drug or alcohol challenges. You’d also like those funds to be used for housing people needing mental health or substance abuse care. Finally, you’d like California to borrow $6.4 billion to pay for more mental health and substance abuse treatment facilities and housing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A vote no on proposition one means you’d like to keep the Mental Health Services Act in its current form, and or you do not want California to issue that $6.4 billion bond.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All right. We really hope that helped you make sense of what you’ll be voting on. Again, Election Day is March 5th, but ballots should be in your mailbox soon if they haven’t arrived yet. If you found this episode helpful, do us a favor and tell your friends all about it or share it out on your social media accounts. Thanks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’re already gearing up for our full sized Prop Fest series during the upcoming general election. If you’ve got questions about a prop, another race, or any other voting issue in California, head over to Bay curious.org and use the form at the top of the page to send that question our way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay curious is made in San Francisco at member supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Bill and me Olivia Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chen, Katie Springer, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanford, Hollie Kernan and the whole KQED family. I’m Olivia Ellen Price. Best of luck in your decision.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Why Is Piedmont a Separate City From Oakland?",
"headTitle": "Why Is Piedmont a Separate City From Oakland? | KQED",
"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This story was first published on April 4, 2019, and was updated on Feb. 1, 2024, to reflect updated census data.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The city of Piedmont in the East Bay is a bit of a geographical oddity. It’s not even 2 square miles in size and is surrounded on all sides by Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you look closely, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/maps/place/Piedmont,+CA/@37.8249429,-122.2441171,5564m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x80857d7f7f19c5f5:0xb8deddc8c24bd3f!8m2!3d37.8243715!4d-122.231635\">town’s borders\u003c/a> seem to make no sense. Instead of following streets or physical landmarks — like the borders of most towns do — in Piedmont, the borders snake around, sometimes through the middle of homes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> listener David Levine has long wondered what’s up with this doughnut hole in the middle of Oakland. He asked, “Why is Piedmont a separate city from Oakland?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think it’s worth understanding the history, and then we can ask questions as a community, ‘Is that still relevant today?'” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, this is a story about Piedmont, of course, but as soon as we started digging around, we quickly found that the story of Piedmont starts in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Little City That Could\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the late 1800s, Oakland incorporated, going from ranch land and small settlement clusters to becoming an official city. Almost immediately, it started to grow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Oakland leaders were under a very ambitious program to enlarge the city’s boundaries and increase the population,” said Oakland librarian Steve Lavoie, who curated an exhibit on Piedmont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This program to expand Oakland’s boundaries was called the Greater Oakland Movement. City leaders wanted to add more land and more residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This movement was not so much motivated by economic interests, but it was motivated by the anti-monopoly group, who felt that small cities were rife for corruption,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These leaders thought that the smaller the city, the greater the chance that greedy folks would do something — like raid the treasury or discourage business competition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The original plan would have created the largest city on the Pacific Coast at the time,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This large city could come together only if they could convince all of the neighboring towns or communities without their own governments to join Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737640\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737640 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/oyy29ensdzi7cg2d-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An illustration in the Oakland Tribune on Nov. 17, 1909. \u003ccite>(Oakland Tribune/Oakland History Room)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Expanding the Boundaries\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Oakland started at about 170 city blocks in size. It grew from there by absorbing surrounding towns, whose names you might recognize as neighborhoods today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1872, it annexed the town of Brooklyn. Twenty-five years later came Temescal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It tried to get Berkeley, but Berkeley turned Oakland down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Each annexation required a vote by the people in the town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard said, “It wasn’t like an aggressive kinda corporate takeover. It was more negotiation with various town councils.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737625\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737625 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-800x450.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1200x675.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1920x1080.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard points out Oakland’s various annexations. \u003ccite>(Chris Hambrick/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>A Wrinkle in the Plan\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Oakland city leaders kept eyeing new territory, and soon, Piedmont was squarely in its crosshairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The City Council took a measure to vote an annexation of all the land in what is now Piedmont and a whole bunch of other East Oakland hamlets,” Steve Lavoie said. Oakland’s City Council set the vote on annexing Piedmont for January 1907.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But then something went wrong. In their paperwork, they failed to name one of the districts they wanted to annex, and the vote was postponed until March. This left a really big opening for mayhem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In the meantime, a group in Piedmont who opposed annexation jumped on the opportunity to try and incorporate Piedmont as a way of preventing annexation into Oakland,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During the delay in Oakland’s vote, some Piedmont residents, a mix of bohemian artists and business people, filed a petition to hold their \u003cem>own \u003c/em>election to become a city. They hoped Piedmont would remain rural and undeveloped if they could beat Oakland to the punch. They saw how densely populated Oakland was, and they didn’t want any part of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Piedmont historian Ann Swift said convincing other Piedmonters to incorporate was no easy feat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Hugh Craig and James Ballentine were the two leaders of the incorporation effort, and they are having meetings every other night, practically trying to rally the troops and get everybody excited about creating this new city,” she said. “But there was also opposition. It was not a slam dunk.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A Tragic Loss\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Something that happened back in 1892 weighed heavily on the minds of voters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The \u003ca href=\"http://piedmonthistorical.org/banner1.html\">Piedmont Springs Hotel\u003c/a>, which was a great, huge, three-story white clapboard edifice that sat in the center of the city, caught fire early one morning in November,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That grand hotel was Piedmont’s biggest tourist attraction — a place where wealthy San Franciscans came to relax. Piedmont didn’t have city services, so Oakland’s Fire Department was summoned to come put out the fire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737636\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737636 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-800x2150.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"2150\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-800x2150.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-160x430.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-446x1200.jpg 446w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping.jpg 762w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The top story in the Oakland Tribune on Nov. 17, 1892, told the news of the devastating fire. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://www.eastbaytimes.com/location/oakland/\">Oakland Tribune/\u003c/a>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/\">Newspapers.com\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“In those days, there were no fire hydrants. You had to bring the water with you,” Swift said. “Well, imagine a team of horses dragging a big tanker full of water up Oakland Avenue, for instance. Very, very difficult and slow going. So by the time the fire wagon’s got to the hotel, they were just sitting with everybody else watching the embers burn.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It took Oakland’s Fire Department two hours to get to the hotel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was completely gone. And that was what happened if your house in the Piedmont hills caught fire,” Swift said. “So Piedmonters were adamant about wanting their own fire service, wanting someone right there in the center of this 1.8 square miles.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>To Join or Not To Join\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>All the Piedmont residents agreed that they needed a better solution for fire response, but they differed on whether better meant being a part of Oakland or figuring it out as their own city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Piedmont had no experience with levying taxes and evaluating property and providing all these city services like street sprinkling. Back in the day, the streets were mostly unpaved, and especially in the summer, you had water trucks that went through the city and watered down the streets so that it wasn’t so dusty,” Swift said. “Well, Piedmont had no water street-dusting things, and so all of that was going to have to be created. And there was a sizable part of the city who thought there was no need to go through that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The big vote on whether Piedmont should incorporate happened in January 1907.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Eighteen more men voted to become a city than voted to not become a city,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Piedmont was officially a city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But here’s where it gets tricky. Oakland’s vote to annex Piedmont still went forward. And in March, a majority of Piedmont residents voted to join Oakland. The vote was 63–43. But this was impossible now that Piedmont was its own city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The only thing that the opponents in the Piedmont hills can do is to hold an election to disincorporate [Piedmont]. So they hold another election in September, and more people voted to become part of the city of Oakland, to disincorporate Piedmont than voted to stay a city,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So then, why is Piedmont separate today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s one of those little nuggets of law that people don’t know much about or care much about until they have to. It requires two-thirds vote of the people to disincorporate a city, and they failed to get two-thirds,” Swift said. [ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Piedmont stayed a separate city, but its edges weave in and out of Oakland. This is because, in their haste to file paperwork to incorporate Piedmont, proponents grabbed the only map they had on hand to define the boundaries — a map of the sewer lines that snaked underneath the houses in Piedmont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What does that mean for the borders of Piedmont today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It means that there are 136 parcels … a portion of which are in Piedmont and a portion of which are in Oakland, and/or, where one side of the street is in Piedmont and the other side of the street is in Oakland, like Rose Avenue,” Swift said. “Sewer boundaries wouldn’t ever be what you would want to use in defining city boundaries. You’d want to use streets or major roads. But they didn’t have that choice, so we’re stuck with it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Piedmont/Oakland Relations Today\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The question-asker wondered about the class and racial divide many see separating Piedmont from Oakland. Host Olivia Allen-Price and reporter Chris Hambrick spoke about it at the end of the episode. Here is the transcript.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Now, I know our question-asker had a few concerns about how Oakland and Piedmont interact. Did any of those issues sort of come to light for you as you were reporting the story? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I learned that both Oakland and Piedmont have an agreement to back each other up when it comes to fire and police services and that Piedmont pays the city of Oakland to use their library since they don’t have any of their own. But when it comes to resident-to-resident interaction, that relationship was a little bit more strained than people would admit on tape. In general, Piedmont residents enjoy having this small-town feel within their city. They know their public officials by name. They know their neighbors. But it seems like some Piedmont residents feel judged for being able to live that way. And on the Oakland side, there’s this feeling that Piedmont residents have been more deliberate and separating themselves and they did that along race and class lines. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why do you think there’s this perception? Where does that come from? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it kind of stems from back in the 1920s. Piedmont had a police chief by the name of Burton Becker, and Burton was an active member of the Klu Klux Klan. He held Klan meetings inside of his house, and at a time when Oakland had banned the Klan because the jurisdiction was different, he was shielded a little bit from persecution, being in Piedmont. He could not be banned because Piedmont is its own city. And then, after World War II, when many African Americans were migrating to the Bay Area from the American South, Oakland’s housing stock was more affordable than Piedmont, so people ended up settling in Oakland. And Piedmont residents are 68% white and 21% Asian, according to the 2020 Census. Compare that with Oakland, which has much larger Black and Latino populations. Some people view this as evidence that Piedmont created a community that excludes based on race and class.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I understand there hasn’t been any like super serious effort to, you know, merge Piedmont and Oakland. But there was a social media campaign a few years back. Can you tell me about the Liberate Piedmont movement? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So a high schooler named Noah Goldstein wanted to explore the possibility of merging Piedmont and Oakland because he felt like Piedmont residents enjoy the benefits of Oakland without having to pay for them. And Piedmont residents pay hefty taxes to support their schools and their city services but they pay that money to the city of Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But it sounds like Piedmont residents weren’t super keen on this idea of becoming a part of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b> Yeah, that’s what I gather. They have a degree of comfort with the way that their life is now. And even though the city founders weren’t able to keep that development from happening, you know, the area’s just 1.7 square miles. And so they did succeed in creating that small-town feel inside their city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right. Well, Chris, thanks so much for looking into this one for us.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Liam O’Donoghue, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://eastbayyesterday.com/\">East Bay Yesterday podcast\u003c/a>, contributed to the research on this story.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The city of Piedmont in the East Bay is a bit of geographical oddity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Levine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I looked at a map and I saw that Piedmont was almost like a doughnut hole in the center of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is David Levine, our question-asker today. On the map, he saw this tiny city, not even two square miles in size, surrounded on all sides by the city of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you take a close look, the borders of Piedmont seem to make no sense. Instead of following streets or physical landmarks — like the borders of most towns do — in Piedmont, the borders snake around — sometimes through the middle of homes. All this got David wondering ….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Levine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Why is Piedmont a separate city from Oakland? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Bay Curious, the podcast that explores the Bay Area one \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">question at a time. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This week we’re bringing you the wild, unexpected origin story of the city of Piedmont. This story first aired in 2019, but it’s a topic we still get questions about on the regular. So, Piedmont fans, Piedmont detractors, and all you generally curious people — stick around for some answers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, this is a story about Piedmont, of course. But as soon as we started digging, we found out…. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> … The story of Piedmont starts in Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> … Reporter Chris Hambrick brings us the tale. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the late 1800s, Oakland incorporated, going from ranch land and small settlement clusters to becoming an official city. Almost immediately, it started to grow. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music begins)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland leaders were under a very ambitious program to enlarge the city’s boundaries and increase the population. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Steve Lavoie. He’s an Oakland librarian who curated an exhibit on Piedmont history. This program to expand Oakland’s boundaries was called the Greater Oakland Movement. City leaders wanted to add more land and more residents. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This movement was not so much motivated by economic interests, but it was motivated by the anti-monopoly group who felt that small cities were ripe for corruption. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They thought the smaller the city, the greater the chance that greedy folks would do something like raid the treasury or discourage competition among businesses. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music fades)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The original plan would have created the largest city on the Pacific coast at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This large city could only come together if they could convince all of the neighboring towns and communities without their own government to join Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music begin)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland started at about 170 city blocks in size. It grew from there by absorbing surrounding towns whose names you might recognize as neighborhoods today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voices:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Temescal. Brooklyn. Fruitvale. Elmhurst. Melrose. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>They tried to get Berkeley, but Berkeley said, “No, thanks.”\u003c/span> Each annexation required a vote by people in the town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dorothy Lazard:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, it wasn’t like an aggressive kind of corporate takeover or anything. It was more negotiation with various town councils. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard. Oakland city leaders kept eyeing new territory, and soon Piedmont was squarely in its crosshairs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The city council took a measure to vote, an annexation of all the land in what is now Piedmont, and a whole bunch of other East Oakland hamlets. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland City Council set the vote on annexing Piedmont for January 1907. But then something went wrong. In their paperwork, they failed to name one of the districts that they wanted to annex, and the vote was postponed until March. This left a really big opening for mayhem. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(dramatic music starts)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the meantime, a group in Piedmont who opposes annexation jumped on the opportunity to try and incorporate Piedmont as a way of preventing annexation into Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> During the delay in Oakland’s vote, some Piedmont residents, a mix of bohemian artists and businesspeople, filed a petition to hold their own election to become a city. If they could beat Oakland to the punch, they hoped Piedmont would remain rural and undeveloped. Piedmont historian Ann Swift says convincing other Piedmont to incorporate was no easy feat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They’re having meetings every other night, practically trying to rally the troops and get everybody excited about creating this new city. But there was also opposition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Something that happened back in 1892 weighed heavily on the minds of voters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Piedmont Springs Hotel, which was a great huge three-story white clapboard edifice that sat in the center of the city, caught fire early one morning in November. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That Grand Hotel was Piedmont’s biggest tourist attraction, a place where wealthy San Franciscans came to relax. Piedmont didn’t have city services, so Oakland’s fire department was summoned to come out the fire.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because in those days, there were no fire hydrants. You had to bring the water with you. Well, imagine a team of horses dragging a big tanker full of water up Oakland Avenue, for instance. Very, very difficult and slow going. So by the time the fire wagons got to the hotel, they were just sitting with everybody else, watching the embers burn. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It took Oakland’s fire department a whopping two hours to get to the hotel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was completely gone. And that was what happened if your house in the Piedmont hills caught fire. So Pidemonters were adamant about wanting their own fire service. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All the Piedmont residents agreed that they needed a better solution for fire response, but they differed on whether better meant being a part of Oakland or figuring it out as their own city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Piedmont had no experience with levying taxes and evaluating property and providing all the city services, and so all of that was going to have to be created. And there was a sizable part of the city who thought there was no need to go through that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The big vote on whether Piedmont should incorporate happened in January 1907. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Eighteen more men voted to become a city, than voted to not become a city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But here’s where it gets tricky. Oakland’s vote to annex Piedmont still went forward, and in March, a majority of Piedmont residents voted to join Oakland. But this was impossible, now that Piedmont was its own city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So the only thing that the opponents in the Piedmont hills can do is to hold an election to disincorporate a city. So they hold another election in September, and more people vote to become part of the city of Oakland, to disincorporate Piedmont than vote to stay a city. So I always ask the school kids, well, so how come I’m not talking to you in Oakland City Hall? It’s one of those little nuggets of lore that people don’t know much about or care much about until they have to. It requires two-thirds vote of the people to disincorporate a city, and they failed to get two-thirds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Piedmont stayed a separate city, with its edges within and out of Oakland. This is because, in their haste to file paperwork to incorporate Piedmont, proponents grabbed the only map they had on hand to define the boundaries. It was a map of the sewer lines that snaked underneath the houses in Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick (in tape):\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what does that mean for the borders of Piedmont today? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dorothy Lazard:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It means that there are 136 parcels, a portion of which are in Piedmont and a portion of which are in Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, Chris, it sounds like Piedmont will continue to be sort of this city within a city, you know, the Vatican of the East Bay, if you will. Now, I know our question-asker had a few concerns about how Oakland and Piedmont interact. Did any of those issues sort of come to light for you as you were reporting the story? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I learned that both Oakland and Piedmont have an agreement to back each other up when it comes to fire and police services and that Piedmont pays the city of Oakland to use their library since they don’t have any of their own. But when it comes to resident-to-resident interaction, that relationship was a little bit more strained than people would admit on tape. In general, Piedmont residents enjoy having this small-town feel within their city. They know their public officials by name. They know their neighbors. But it seems like some Piedmont residents feel judged for being able to live that way. And on the Oakland side, there’s this feeling that Piedmont residents have been more deliberate and separating themselves and they did that along race and class lines. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why do you think there’s this perception? Where does that come from? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it kind of stems from back in the 1920s. Piedmont had a police chief by the name of Burton Becker, and Burton was an active member of the Klu Klux Klan. He held Klan meetings inside of his house, and at a time when Oakland had banned the Klan because the jurisdiction was different, he was shielded a little bit from persecution, being in Piedmont. He could not be banned because Piedmont is its own city. And then, after World War II, when many African Americans were migrating to the Bay Area from the American South, Oakland’s housing stock was more affordable than Piedmont, so people ended up settling in Oakland. And Piedmont residents are 68% white and 21% Asian, according to the 2020 Census. Compare that with Oakland, which has much larger Black and Latino populations. Some people view this as evidence that Piedmont created a community that excludes based on race and class.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I understand there hasn’t been any like super serious effort to, you know, merge Piedmont and Oakland. But there was a social media campaign a few years back. Can you tell me about the Liberate Piedmont movement? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So a high schooler named Noah Goldstein wanted to explore the possibility of merging Piedmont and Oakland because he felt like Piedmont residents enjoy the benefits of Oakland without having to pay for them. And Piedmont residents pay hefty taxes to support their schools and their city services but they pay that money to the city of Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But it sounds like Piedmont residents weren’t super keen on this idea of becoming a part of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, that’s what I gather. They have a degree of comfort with the way that their life is now. And even though the city founders weren’t able to keep that development from happening, you know, the area’s just 1.7 square miles. And so they did succeed in creating that small-town feel inside their city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right. Well, Chris, thanks so much for looking into this one for us. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A big thanks to Bay Curious listener David Levine for asking this week’s question. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Liam O’Donohue, the host and creator of the East Bay Yesterday podcast, was a big help with the research on this story. If you haven’t checked out Liam’s podcast yet, I highly suggest you give it a try. Just search East Bay yesterday. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Bay Curious is produced in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. The show is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"excerpt": "Piedmont is surrounded on all sides by Oakland. A look back at the history of how the city was founded.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This story was first published on April 4, 2019, and was updated on Feb. 1, 2024, to reflect updated census data.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The city of Piedmont in the East Bay is a bit of a geographical oddity. It’s not even 2 square miles in size and is surrounded on all sides by Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you look closely, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/maps/place/Piedmont,+CA/@37.8249429,-122.2441171,5564m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x80857d7f7f19c5f5:0xb8deddc8c24bd3f!8m2!3d37.8243715!4d-122.231635\">town’s borders\u003c/a> seem to make no sense. Instead of following streets or physical landmarks — like the borders of most towns do — in Piedmont, the borders snake around, sometimes through the middle of homes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> listener David Levine has long wondered what’s up with this doughnut hole in the middle of Oakland. He asked, “Why is Piedmont a separate city from Oakland?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think it’s worth understanding the history, and then we can ask questions as a community, ‘Is that still relevant today?'” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, this is a story about Piedmont, of course, but as soon as we started digging around, we quickly found that the story of Piedmont starts in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Little City That Could\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the late 1800s, Oakland incorporated, going from ranch land and small settlement clusters to becoming an official city. Almost immediately, it started to grow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Oakland leaders were under a very ambitious program to enlarge the city’s boundaries and increase the population,” said Oakland librarian Steve Lavoie, who curated an exhibit on Piedmont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This program to expand Oakland’s boundaries was called the Greater Oakland Movement. City leaders wanted to add more land and more residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This movement was not so much motivated by economic interests, but it was motivated by the anti-monopoly group, who felt that small cities were rife for corruption,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These leaders thought that the smaller the city, the greater the chance that greedy folks would do something — like raid the treasury or discourage business competition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The original plan would have created the largest city on the Pacific Coast at the time,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This large city could come together only if they could convince all of the neighboring towns or communities without their own governments to join Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737640\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737640 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/oyy29ensdzi7cg2d-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An illustration in the Oakland Tribune on Nov. 17, 1909. \u003ccite>(Oakland Tribune/Oakland History Room)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Expanding the Boundaries\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Oakland started at about 170 city blocks in size. It grew from there by absorbing surrounding towns, whose names you might recognize as neighborhoods today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1872, it annexed the town of Brooklyn. Twenty-five years later came Temescal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It tried to get Berkeley, but Berkeley turned Oakland down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Each annexation required a vote by the people in the town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard said, “It wasn’t like an aggressive kinda corporate takeover. It was more negotiation with various town councils.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737625\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737625 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-800x450.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1200x675.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1920x1080.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard points out Oakland’s various annexations. \u003ccite>(Chris Hambrick/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>A Wrinkle in the Plan\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Oakland city leaders kept eyeing new territory, and soon, Piedmont was squarely in its crosshairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The City Council took a measure to vote an annexation of all the land in what is now Piedmont and a whole bunch of other East Oakland hamlets,” Steve Lavoie said. Oakland’s City Council set the vote on annexing Piedmont for January 1907.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But then something went wrong. In their paperwork, they failed to name one of the districts they wanted to annex, and the vote was postponed until March. This left a really big opening for mayhem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In the meantime, a group in Piedmont who opposed annexation jumped on the opportunity to try and incorporate Piedmont as a way of preventing annexation into Oakland,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During the delay in Oakland’s vote, some Piedmont residents, a mix of bohemian artists and business people, filed a petition to hold their \u003cem>own \u003c/em>election to become a city. They hoped Piedmont would remain rural and undeveloped if they could beat Oakland to the punch. They saw how densely populated Oakland was, and they didn’t want any part of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Piedmont historian Ann Swift said convincing other Piedmonters to incorporate was no easy feat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Hugh Craig and James Ballentine were the two leaders of the incorporation effort, and they are having meetings every other night, practically trying to rally the troops and get everybody excited about creating this new city,” she said. “But there was also opposition. It was not a slam dunk.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A Tragic Loss\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Something that happened back in 1892 weighed heavily on the minds of voters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The \u003ca href=\"http://piedmonthistorical.org/banner1.html\">Piedmont Springs Hotel\u003c/a>, which was a great, huge, three-story white clapboard edifice that sat in the center of the city, caught fire early one morning in November,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That grand hotel was Piedmont’s biggest tourist attraction — a place where wealthy San Franciscans came to relax. Piedmont didn’t have city services, so Oakland’s Fire Department was summoned to come put out the fire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737636\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737636 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-800x2150.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"2150\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-800x2150.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-160x430.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-446x1200.jpg 446w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping.jpg 762w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The top story in the Oakland Tribune on Nov. 17, 1892, told the news of the devastating fire. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://www.eastbaytimes.com/location/oakland/\">Oakland Tribune/\u003c/a>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/\">Newspapers.com\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“In those days, there were no fire hydrants. You had to bring the water with you,” Swift said. “Well, imagine a team of horses dragging a big tanker full of water up Oakland Avenue, for instance. Very, very difficult and slow going. So by the time the fire wagon’s got to the hotel, they were just sitting with everybody else watching the embers burn.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It took Oakland’s Fire Department two hours to get to the hotel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was completely gone. And that was what happened if your house in the Piedmont hills caught fire,” Swift said. “So Piedmonters were adamant about wanting their own fire service, wanting someone right there in the center of this 1.8 square miles.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>To Join or Not To Join\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>All the Piedmont residents agreed that they needed a better solution for fire response, but they differed on whether better meant being a part of Oakland or figuring it out as their own city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Piedmont had no experience with levying taxes and evaluating property and providing all these city services like street sprinkling. Back in the day, the streets were mostly unpaved, and especially in the summer, you had water trucks that went through the city and watered down the streets so that it wasn’t so dusty,” Swift said. “Well, Piedmont had no water street-dusting things, and so all of that was going to have to be created. And there was a sizable part of the city who thought there was no need to go through that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The big vote on whether Piedmont should incorporate happened in January 1907.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Eighteen more men voted to become a city than voted to not become a city,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Piedmont was officially a city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But here’s where it gets tricky. Oakland’s vote to annex Piedmont still went forward. And in March, a majority of Piedmont residents voted to join Oakland. The vote was 63–43. But this was impossible now that Piedmont was its own city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The only thing that the opponents in the Piedmont hills can do is to hold an election to disincorporate [Piedmont]. So they hold another election in September, and more people voted to become part of the city of Oakland, to disincorporate Piedmont than voted to stay a city,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So then, why is Piedmont separate today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s one of those little nuggets of law that people don’t know much about or care much about until they have to. It requires two-thirds vote of the people to disincorporate a city, and they failed to get two-thirds,” Swift said. \u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Piedmont stayed a separate city, but its edges weave in and out of Oakland. This is because, in their haste to file paperwork to incorporate Piedmont, proponents grabbed the only map they had on hand to define the boundaries — a map of the sewer lines that snaked underneath the houses in Piedmont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What does that mean for the borders of Piedmont today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It means that there are 136 parcels … a portion of which are in Piedmont and a portion of which are in Oakland, and/or, where one side of the street is in Piedmont and the other side of the street is in Oakland, like Rose Avenue,” Swift said. “Sewer boundaries wouldn’t ever be what you would want to use in defining city boundaries. You’d want to use streets or major roads. But they didn’t have that choice, so we’re stuck with it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Piedmont/Oakland Relations Today\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The question-asker wondered about the class and racial divide many see separating Piedmont from Oakland. Host Olivia Allen-Price and reporter Chris Hambrick spoke about it at the end of the episode. Here is the transcript.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Now, I know our question-asker had a few concerns about how Oakland and Piedmont interact. Did any of those issues sort of come to light for you as you were reporting the story? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I learned that both Oakland and Piedmont have an agreement to back each other up when it comes to fire and police services and that Piedmont pays the city of Oakland to use their library since they don’t have any of their own. But when it comes to resident-to-resident interaction, that relationship was a little bit more strained than people would admit on tape. In general, Piedmont residents enjoy having this small-town feel within their city. They know their public officials by name. They know their neighbors. But it seems like some Piedmont residents feel judged for being able to live that way. And on the Oakland side, there’s this feeling that Piedmont residents have been more deliberate and separating themselves and they did that along race and class lines. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why do you think there’s this perception? Where does that come from? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it kind of stems from back in the 1920s. Piedmont had a police chief by the name of Burton Becker, and Burton was an active member of the Klu Klux Klan. He held Klan meetings inside of his house, and at a time when Oakland had banned the Klan because the jurisdiction was different, he was shielded a little bit from persecution, being in Piedmont. He could not be banned because Piedmont is its own city. And then, after World War II, when many African Americans were migrating to the Bay Area from the American South, Oakland’s housing stock was more affordable than Piedmont, so people ended up settling in Oakland. And Piedmont residents are 68% white and 21% Asian, according to the 2020 Census. Compare that with Oakland, which has much larger Black and Latino populations. Some people view this as evidence that Piedmont created a community that excludes based on race and class.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I understand there hasn’t been any like super serious effort to, you know, merge Piedmont and Oakland. But there was a social media campaign a few years back. Can you tell me about the Liberate Piedmont movement? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So a high schooler named Noah Goldstein wanted to explore the possibility of merging Piedmont and Oakland because he felt like Piedmont residents enjoy the benefits of Oakland without having to pay for them. And Piedmont residents pay hefty taxes to support their schools and their city services but they pay that money to the city of Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But it sounds like Piedmont residents weren’t super keen on this idea of becoming a part of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b> Yeah, that’s what I gather. They have a degree of comfort with the way that their life is now. And even though the city founders weren’t able to keep that development from happening, you know, the area’s just 1.7 square miles. And so they did succeed in creating that small-town feel inside their city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right. Well, Chris, thanks so much for looking into this one for us.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Liam O’Donoghue, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://eastbayyesterday.com/\">East Bay Yesterday podcast\u003c/a>, contributed to the research on this story.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The city of Piedmont in the East Bay is a bit of geographical oddity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Levine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I looked at a map and I saw that Piedmont was almost like a doughnut hole in the center of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is David Levine, our question-asker today. On the map, he saw this tiny city, not even two square miles in size, surrounded on all sides by the city of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you take a close look, the borders of Piedmont seem to make no sense. Instead of following streets or physical landmarks — like the borders of most towns do — in Piedmont, the borders snake around — sometimes through the middle of homes. All this got David wondering ….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Levine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Why is Piedmont a separate city from Oakland? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Bay Curious, the podcast that explores the Bay Area one \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">question at a time. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This week we’re bringing you the wild, unexpected origin story of the city of Piedmont. This story first aired in 2019, but it’s a topic we still get questions about on the regular. So, Piedmont fans, Piedmont detractors, and all you generally curious people — stick around for some answers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, this is a story about Piedmont, of course. But as soon as we started digging, we found out…. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> … The story of Piedmont starts in Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> … Reporter Chris Hambrick brings us the tale. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the late 1800s, Oakland incorporated, going from ranch land and small settlement clusters to becoming an official city. Almost immediately, it started to grow. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music begins)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland leaders were under a very ambitious program to enlarge the city’s boundaries and increase the population. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Steve Lavoie. He’s an Oakland librarian who curated an exhibit on Piedmont history. This program to expand Oakland’s boundaries was called the Greater Oakland Movement. City leaders wanted to add more land and more residents. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This movement was not so much motivated by economic interests, but it was motivated by the anti-monopoly group who felt that small cities were ripe for corruption. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They thought the smaller the city, the greater the chance that greedy folks would do something like raid the treasury or discourage competition among businesses. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music fades)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The original plan would have created the largest city on the Pacific coast at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This large city could only come together if they could convince all of the neighboring towns and communities without their own government to join Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music begin)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland started at about 170 city blocks in size. It grew from there by absorbing surrounding towns whose names you might recognize as neighborhoods today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voices:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Temescal. Brooklyn. Fruitvale. Elmhurst. Melrose. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>They tried to get Berkeley, but Berkeley said, “No, thanks.”\u003c/span> Each annexation required a vote by people in the town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dorothy Lazard:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, it wasn’t like an aggressive kind of corporate takeover or anything. It was more negotiation with various town councils. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard. Oakland city leaders kept eyeing new territory, and soon Piedmont was squarely in its crosshairs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The city council took a measure to vote, an annexation of all the land in what is now Piedmont, and a whole bunch of other East Oakland hamlets. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland City Council set the vote on annexing Piedmont for January 1907. But then something went wrong. In their paperwork, they failed to name one of the districts that they wanted to annex, and the vote was postponed until March. This left a really big opening for mayhem. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(dramatic music starts)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the meantime, a group in Piedmont who opposes annexation jumped on the opportunity to try and incorporate Piedmont as a way of preventing annexation into Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> During the delay in Oakland’s vote, some Piedmont residents, a mix of bohemian artists and businesspeople, filed a petition to hold their own election to become a city. If they could beat Oakland to the punch, they hoped Piedmont would remain rural and undeveloped. Piedmont historian Ann Swift says convincing other Piedmont to incorporate was no easy feat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They’re having meetings every other night, practically trying to rally the troops and get everybody excited about creating this new city. But there was also opposition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Something that happened back in 1892 weighed heavily on the minds of voters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Piedmont Springs Hotel, which was a great huge three-story white clapboard edifice that sat in the center of the city, caught fire early one morning in November. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That Grand Hotel was Piedmont’s biggest tourist attraction, a place where wealthy San Franciscans came to relax. Piedmont didn’t have city services, so Oakland’s fire department was summoned to come out the fire.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because in those days, there were no fire hydrants. You had to bring the water with you. Well, imagine a team of horses dragging a big tanker full of water up Oakland Avenue, for instance. Very, very difficult and slow going. So by the time the fire wagons got to the hotel, they were just sitting with everybody else, watching the embers burn. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It took Oakland’s fire department a whopping two hours to get to the hotel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was completely gone. And that was what happened if your house in the Piedmont hills caught fire. So Pidemonters were adamant about wanting their own fire service. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All the Piedmont residents agreed that they needed a better solution for fire response, but they differed on whether better meant being a part of Oakland or figuring it out as their own city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Piedmont had no experience with levying taxes and evaluating property and providing all the city services, and so all of that was going to have to be created. And there was a sizable part of the city who thought there was no need to go through that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The big vote on whether Piedmont should incorporate happened in January 1907. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Eighteen more men voted to become a city, than voted to not become a city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But here’s where it gets tricky. Oakland’s vote to annex Piedmont still went forward, and in March, a majority of Piedmont residents voted to join Oakland. But this was impossible, now that Piedmont was its own city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So the only thing that the opponents in the Piedmont hills can do is to hold an election to disincorporate a city. So they hold another election in September, and more people vote to become part of the city of Oakland, to disincorporate Piedmont than vote to stay a city. So I always ask the school kids, well, so how come I’m not talking to you in Oakland City Hall? It’s one of those little nuggets of lore that people don’t know much about or care much about until they have to. It requires two-thirds vote of the people to disincorporate a city, and they failed to get two-thirds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Piedmont stayed a separate city, with its edges within and out of Oakland. This is because, in their haste to file paperwork to incorporate Piedmont, proponents grabbed the only map they had on hand to define the boundaries. It was a map of the sewer lines that snaked underneath the houses in Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick (in tape):\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what does that mean for the borders of Piedmont today? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dorothy Lazard:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It means that there are 136 parcels, a portion of which are in Piedmont and a portion of which are in Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, Chris, it sounds like Piedmont will continue to be sort of this city within a city, you know, the Vatican of the East Bay, if you will. Now, I know our question-asker had a few concerns about how Oakland and Piedmont interact. Did any of those issues sort of come to light for you as you were reporting the story? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I learned that both Oakland and Piedmont have an agreement to back each other up when it comes to fire and police services and that Piedmont pays the city of Oakland to use their library since they don’t have any of their own. But when it comes to resident-to-resident interaction, that relationship was a little bit more strained than people would admit on tape. In general, Piedmont residents enjoy having this small-town feel within their city. They know their public officials by name. They know their neighbors. But it seems like some Piedmont residents feel judged for being able to live that way. And on the Oakland side, there’s this feeling that Piedmont residents have been more deliberate and separating themselves and they did that along race and class lines. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why do you think there’s this perception? Where does that come from? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it kind of stems from back in the 1920s. Piedmont had a police chief by the name of Burton Becker, and Burton was an active member of the Klu Klux Klan. He held Klan meetings inside of his house, and at a time when Oakland had banned the Klan because the jurisdiction was different, he was shielded a little bit from persecution, being in Piedmont. He could not be banned because Piedmont is its own city. And then, after World War II, when many African Americans were migrating to the Bay Area from the American South, Oakland’s housing stock was more affordable than Piedmont, so people ended up settling in Oakland. And Piedmont residents are 68% white and 21% Asian, according to the 2020 Census. Compare that with Oakland, which has much larger Black and Latino populations. Some people view this as evidence that Piedmont created a community that excludes based on race and class.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I understand there hasn’t been any like super serious effort to, you know, merge Piedmont and Oakland. But there was a social media campaign a few years back. Can you tell me about the Liberate Piedmont movement? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So a high schooler named Noah Goldstein wanted to explore the possibility of merging Piedmont and Oakland because he felt like Piedmont residents enjoy the benefits of Oakland without having to pay for them. And Piedmont residents pay hefty taxes to support their schools and their city services but they pay that money to the city of Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But it sounds like Piedmont residents weren’t super keen on this idea of becoming a part of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, that’s what I gather. They have a degree of comfort with the way that their life is now. And even though the city founders weren’t able to keep that development from happening, you know, the area’s just 1.7 square miles. And so they did succeed in creating that small-town feel inside their city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right. Well, Chris, thanks so much for looking into this one for us. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A big thanks to Bay Curious listener David Levine for asking this week’s question. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Liam O’Donohue, the host and creator of the East Bay Yesterday podcast, was a big help with the research on this story. If you haven’t checked out Liam’s podcast yet, I highly suggest you give it a try. Just search East Bay yesterday. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Bay Curious is produced in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. The show is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Yes, That Squirrel Might Be Taunting Your Dog. And More Squirrel Facts",
"headTitle": "Yes, That Squirrel Might Be Taunting Your Dog. And More Squirrel Facts | KQED",
"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Look out your window on any given day, and you might see a squirrel busily collecting nuts and burying them around the yard or scampering across swaying power lines like a trapeze artist. Depending on your point of view, they might be cute furry friends or “rodents with bushy tails,” just as likely to carry disease as rats or pigeons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Last year, we asked Bay Curious listeners what they wanted to know about squirrels and got a huge response — over 50 questions about squirrel behavior, social practices, ancestry and economics. Today, we’re answering as many as we can.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We spoke to Lucia Jacobs, a cognitive scientist who has studied squirrel behavior for 40 years. \u003ca href=\"https://psychology.berkeley.edu/people/lucia-f-jacobs\">She’s a professor emerita at UC Berkeley\u003c/a> and continues researching and publishing insights into squirrel behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>First, let’s start with some squirrel basics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>How many squirrel species are there in the San Francisco Bay Area?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When people talk about squirrels, they are usually referring to tree squirrels. The Bay Area has three types: the fox squirrel, the eastern gray squirrel and the western gray squirrel. Of those, only the western gray is native to the area. The other two are introduced. People living in the East Bay are probably seeing fox squirrels – they have an orangish, tawny tint to their fur. In Marin and down the peninsula, it’s more common to see the eastern and western grays. The western variety is bigger, which is one way to tell it apart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11973514\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11973514\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/western-gray.jpg\" alt=\"A chubby gray squirrel takes up the entire frame while eating a nut.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1371\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/western-gray.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/western-gray-800x571.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/western-gray-1020x728.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/western-gray-160x114.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/western-gray-1536x1097.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The western gray squirrel is slightly bigger than the eastern gray species and is native to the San Francisco Bay Area. The western gray is often seen in Marin and down the peninsula. \u003ccite>(Nancy Strohm/iStock)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Squirrels actually evolved in North America,” Lucia Jacobs said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Scientists found a skeleton that look almost exactly like the tree squirrels we know today from about 35 million years ago. \u003ca href=\"https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1055790303002045?via%3Dihub\">They concluded that the first squirrels were arboreal\u003c/a> and that ground squirrels evolved from there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The eastern gray and fox squirrels co-evolved with the walnut tree family, which includes hickory trees. That’s partly why eastern North America was so thickly forested with a diverse array of trees when European colonizers first arrived and before they started clear-cutting everything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here’s how it works. Trees produce nuts that fall to the ground at their roots. If they stay there, weevils often eat them, or they can’t thrive in the shade of the parent tree. That’s when the squirrels get involved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Squirrels clean the nut off, and then they carry the nut away from the parent tree,” Jacobs said. “They carry the nut to an open place, and they bury it an inch down. It’s perfect; it germinates in the spring.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>An average \u003ca href=\"https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-squirrels-remember-where-they-buried-their-nuts/\">eastern gray squirrel might cache around 3,000 nuts per year\u003c/a>. If it doesn’t come back for a few of them or something happens to the squirrel, that tree thrives. And when the trees thrive, the squirrel population also thrives because there’s plenty to eat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-12-20/the-forgotten-history-of-how-cities-almost-killed-the-common-squirrel\">When European colonizers clear-cut the forests on the East Coast, squirrels almost went extinct\u003c/a>, Jacobs said. But, in the 1800s, some city planners reintroduced them to city parks as a way for city dwellers to have some connection to wild nature. Those parks acted as “refugia” for the squirrels, and their population recovered. Another fun fact: \u003ca href=\"https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/pet-squirrel-craze\">Many people kept wild squirrels as pets in the 1700s\u003c/a>. Benjamin Franklin was known for bringing squirrels to England as gifts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11973517\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11973517\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/eastern-gray.jpg\" alt=\"A small gray squirrel hands onto a thin tree branch, inquisitively looking around.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1536\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/eastern-gray.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/eastern-gray-800x640.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/eastern-gray-1020x816.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/eastern-gray-160x128.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/eastern-gray-1536x1229.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The eastern gray squirrel (Sciurus carolinensis) is not native to the Bay Area but is commonly seen here. It is very adaptable and has thrived in urban and suburban environments. \u003ccite>(Wirestock/iStock)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>What is a ground squirrel?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are many different types of ground squirrels, including prairie dogs, marmots and chipmunks, as well as the local California ground squirrel. These animals are a type of squirrel, but they live in networks of underground burrows. Ground squirrels do eat nuts, but aren’t as obsessed with them as tree squirrels. \u003ca href=\"https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=10507\">They’ll also eat seeds, greens, insects and other things.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Are squirrels rodents, like rats?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Squirrels are in the rodentia order, so yes, they are rodents. They are distant cousins to rats. Some people do consider squirrels pests, and they can carry disease.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Where do squirrels sleep?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tree squirrels like to sleep in tree hollows or in leaf nests they make high up in the branches away from predators. They make their nests cozy with finely chewed bark and can live there even during cold winters. They also take care of their babies in these nests, which are called dreys. Jacobs said you aren’t likely to see baby squirrels because the juveniles are born blind and deaf, and they stay in the nest for quite a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re not independent, really, until they’re 13 or 14 weeks old,” Jacobs said. “And they have so much to learn: they have to learn how to open nuts. They have to learn how to cache, how to move in the trees.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When a female squirrel has a litter, she will go off on her own to raise her young in her own nest. But one cute fact about \u003ca href=\"https://academic.oup.com/jmammal/article/77/4/1006/938223\">the eastern gray squirrel, in particular, is that they do sometimes share nests for warmth\u003c/a>. Jacobs said researchers need to study this behavior more to understand how squirrels choose their nestmates, some of whom do not seem related by blood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11973518\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11973518\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/eastern-drey.jpg\" alt=\"What looks like a ball of leavess its up in the branches of a coniferous tree. The small head of a squirrel pokes out.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/eastern-drey.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/eastern-drey-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/eastern-drey-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/eastern-drey-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/eastern-drey-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An eastern gray squirrel pokes its head out of its drey, a nest built high up in a tree. \u003ccite>(Sunflower Shots/iStock)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Why are squirrel tails so fluffy?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Squirrels use their tails for many things, including keeping warm in their nests, maintaining balance while prancing around the power lines, jumping from branch to branch and communicating. Jacobs said researchers have observed that squirrels will use their tails to show frustration. (KQED’s Deep Look program explored how squirrels show emotion with their tails in the video: \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUjQtJGaSpk\">Watch These Frustrated Squirrels Go Nuts!\u003c/a>)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUjQtJGaSpk\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There aren’t that many mammal species that have such flexible tails,” Jacobs said. “If it’s upset or nervous, [it] will move its tail a certain way, as a social signal.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Do squirrels actually remember all the places they buried nuts?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Yes, they seem to. It’s hard to control for all the variables present in the wild, but Jacobs said \u003ca href=\"https://psychology.berkeley.edu/news/fox-squirrels-use-%E2%80%98chunking%E2%80%99-organize-their-favorite-nuts\">studies of squirrels in captivity showed \u003c/a>that a squirrel would find twice as many nuts that it buried as compared to nuts another squirrel buried. That indicates that they do remember where they buried things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But if they do stumble on another squirrel’s cache, they have no qualms about stealing it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Studies on the UC Berkeley campus have also shown that squirrels value nuts differently. They prize larger nuts more, so they’ll shake the nut and measure its mass in their mouth before deciding where to cache it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Even if you give them a random series of nuts, they will organize them as they’re caching them,” Jacobs explained. “And so at the end of the day, they’ve got the almonds over here, and the walnuts over there, and the peanuts over there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11973521\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11973521\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/black-eastern-gray-squirrel.jpg\" alt=\"A squirrel with black coloring and a bushy tail sits on a think tree branch.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1443\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/black-eastern-gray-squirrel.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/black-eastern-gray-squirrel-800x601.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/black-eastern-gray-squirrel-1020x767.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/black-eastern-gray-squirrel-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/black-eastern-gray-squirrel-1536x1154.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">There’s a common gene mutation in the eastern gray squirrel that turns the fur black. Many of this variety can be seen on the Stanford campus and its surroundings, leading to a myth that the black fur was a result of an experiment gone wrong. That’s false! The black-colored squirrels are just eastern grays with a gene mutation. \u003ccite>(randimal/iStock)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Depending on how much they value the nut, they’ll bury them at different distances between each nut. Almonds, for example, are less highly prized than walnuts because they are smaller. So, the squirrel might bury more almonds in a smaller area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What they do is they bury the walnuts more spread out so that if one squirrel finds one of their walnuts, they’re not going to immediately find their other walnuts,” Jacobs said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Do squirrels have distinct personalities?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s crazy because they’re not [people],” Jacobs said. “But this is a fascinating area. Certainly, you get big individual differences in temperament. And there’s a genetic component.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What we might interpret as “personality” is an evolutionary tendency for diversity, Jacobs said. Some years, bold personalities might be required to survive, while in other years, having a more timid sensibility is an asset. Squirrels are born with different temperaments to make sure some survive, no matter the conditions that year. And squirrels live a long time, so the same squirrel might be living in the same yard for 10 years, which means it probably knows you and has determined if you are a threat or not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Are squirrels taunting your dog?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maybe. Jacobs said studies of animals in Africa have shown a pattern of prey animals approaching predators when they are clearly not hungry as a way to study the predator. Squirrels might be doing that with dogs on leashes or that are penned in by fences. But also: “Animals have a great sense of humor,” Jacobs said. “I wouldn’t put it past a squirrel to be teasing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>How can you keep squirrels out of your birdfeeder or flowerpots?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Turns out squirrels don’t like chili peppers. You can buy bird seed coated in chili pepper, which doesn’t bother the birds because they don’t have taste receptors, but it definitely bothers the squirrels, who do. That might do the trick. Similarly, if squirrels dig up your flowers as they look for their nuts, a little sprinkle of cayenne pepper on the soil could keep them away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And, perhaps the most obvious advice, if you want to keep squirrels out of your yard, don’t feed them!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And, if you still want to know more about squirrels, Jacobs recommends \u003ca href=\"https://press.jhu.edu/books/title/9781/squirrels-world\">\u003cem>Squirrels of the World\u003c/em> \u003c/a>as the definitive reference on them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>When it comes to squirrels, I think there are two kinds of people in this world. There are people like my husband Sam, who call them …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sam Price: \u003c/b>Tree rats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>They see squirrels as a nuisance, just another pest that ruins the garden. And then there are people like me who, if given the chance, would happily post up under a tree and watch the squirrels do their thing all day. Their cute little cheeks as they work over a nut. Their busy tails that flick this way and that. I am quite fond of squirrels, but my affection for them is nothing compared to that of my KQED colleague Angela Corral. Angela is the senior editor of the California Report, and she seemed like the perfect reporter to tap.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral:\u003c/b> So it might have been the summer of 2020, now that I think about it. And that, of course, was Covid. So we were all home. My kids, my husband, me, my two kittens, my 90-pound dog. We’re all home all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Angela was putting peanuts out to feed the crows in her neighborhood. Which, by the way, we are not recommending. One day, she noticed someone else was interested in her offering.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral:\u003c/b> Suddenly, this little squirrel started coming around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Scene sound of Angela going opening her door, saying, “Oh! Hi! Hold on.” as she sees the squirrel.\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Angela Corral:\u003c/b> I went and sat on the porch with my peanuts, and she would just come right up to me and I would toss them sort of in front of me, you know, and she would come get them without a problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Her relationship with a little squirrel grew.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral:\u003c/b> And then eventually, she would take it out of my hand, and I was just tickled.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Scene sound of Angela talking to the squirrel while we hear it eating a peanut – “Hi! You’re so polite.”\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Angela even gave the squirrel a name. Karla.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Whimsical piano music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral:\u003c/b> And in case you’re wondering, it’s Karla with a K.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Years went by and Karla became part of the family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>My giant dog started treating Karla as if she was like one of our pets. She didn’t get worked up or excited when Karla would come to the door. They would \u003ci>nearly \u003c/i>sniff noses on the porch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Angela was even gifted a few squirrel-sized picnic tables that Karla would post up at.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral:\u003c/b> So I could sit there working. (laughing) And Karla could sit at her table eating peanuts. (laughing) And we could enjoy each other’s company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Whimsical piano music ends. Laid-back, staccato guitar begins.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Now, I know you all have stories like Angela’s, because last year we asked what you wanted to know about squirrels. I thought we would hear from a few folks, but we got more than 50 squirrel questions about everything from how they find their nuts after they’ve buried them, to whether one pesky squirrel in your yard is actually taunting your dog. So today on Big Curious, it is squirrel mania. We have lots of answers to your questions. Just ahead. I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Many of us have noticed the playful squirrels in our yards or neighborhoods, and we have questions about these critters. KQED’s Angela Corral and I went and did some digging, har har, to find out the answers. Welcome, Angela.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>Hi, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> OK, let’s start with some squirrel basics. One listener named Rita Rodriguez wants to know how many different \u003ci>species\u003c/i> of squirrels are in the Bay Area. And another listener, William, wants to know if any of them are native to our region.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>OK, I’m going to start sort of broadly and then narrow it down because I think that will help. Worldwide, there are only three broad types of squirrels: tree squirrels, ground squirrels and flying squirrels. They are in the same family and are distant cousins of each other. I spoke to Lucia Jacobs about all this. She’s been studying squirrels for over 40 years and is a professor emerita at UC Berkeley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lucia Jacobs:\u003c/b> In the Bay Area, we’ve got three species of tree squirrels. (sound of fox squirrel) The East Bay generally has the fox squirrel, which is a has kind of a orangish, you know, tawny fur. (sound of eastern gray squirrel) And then the peninsula and Marin have the eastern gray squirrel. (sound of western gray squirrel) But then they also have the native western gray squirrel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>So the western gray squirrel is native to this area, but the other two, the fox squirrel and the eastern gray, are non-native.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Then we get to our ground squirrels. There are a lot of types of them but we may not think of them as squirrels, per se.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>So, chipmunks, prairie dogs, marmots … those are all ground squirrels. Around here you’ll likely see the \u003ci>California ground squirrel\u003c/i> … they live in colonies and build networks of burrows underground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>(Sound of California ground squirrel)\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> OK, A listener named Heather Young says she’s heard squirrels often called “rodents with tails.” I mentioned earlier, my husband calls them “rats with tails.” Is that characterization fair? And how closely related to rats are squirrels?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>Well, squirrels are in the rodentia order. So, in a way, they are cousins to rats and are often considered pests that can carry disease.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Oh… It’s amazing how far some fur and some cute eyes really goes a long way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corra: \u003c/b>Really it does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> (laughing) Uh, OK, Moving on … We got a whole bunch of questions about the daily life of squirrels. You know, we often see them out there, doing their squirrel thing all alone. But sometimes you’ll see some of them hanging together. What is the social life of a squirrel like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>Well, a pretty adorable fact is that squirrels do seem to be somewhat social. The eastern gray squirrel in particular. They share nests sometimes to stay warm and seem to sort of at least “know” one another, although Lucia says we’re not sure how they choose their nest mates… and they need to do more research on the topic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> What about when you see three or four squirrels chasing each other all over the place, what are they doing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>If they’re babies, they might actually be playing. But if they look mature, it’s probably a mating chase.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Oooo!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lucia Jacobs: \u003c/b>Females come into heat just twice a year. And the males come in from all over, and then the female leads them on this big chase, and that’s her way of deciding who she’s going to you know, grace with her genetic material.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> I’ve always wondered where squirrels sleep because I’ve never caught one snoozing. And it turns out they collect green leaves and make these huge nests high up in the branches of trees…away from predators. They line them with chewed-up bark to make them cozy…and they can live in them even when it’s really cold. These leaf nests are also where their babies are born and raised.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lucia Jacobs:\u003c/b> They’re not independent, really, till they’re like 13, 14 weeks old, so they’re sticking around the nest. And they have so much to learn. They have to learn how to open nuts. They have to learn how to cache; how to move in the trees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Watching squirrels move through trees is probably what I find most compelling about them. It is some serious parkour!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>It’s amazing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> When we see a squirrel in a yard or park, a lot of what they’re doing is finding and burying nuts for the winter. Many of the questions listeners sent us were about the \u003ci>nuts and bolts\u003c/i> of squirrels’ nut hoarding if you will… Sean Malley wants to know if squirrels remember all the places they’ve buried something?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>That’s exactly the type of question Lucia gets fired up about because she’s been studying this squirrel behavior for years. She cautioned that it’s really hard to control for all the variables that exist in the wild, but says studies of squirrels in captivity showed that they found twice as many nuts that \u003ci>they\u003c/i> had buried as compared to nuts \u003ci>another\u003c/i> squirrel had buried. So, that indicates that yes, they do remember where they buried nuts. They treat different types of nuts differently depending on how much they value them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lucia Jacobs:\u003c/b> My graduate student at the time, Stephanie Preston, showed that they actually shake the nut in their mouth to estimate the mass of the nut. And depending on how heavy it is, they will carry it farther away from the competition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Wow, so they’re making an economic decision about the value of a nut-based on its mass … how fascinating. And I take it they like big nuts?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>They like big nuts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> But squirrels aren’t just paying attention to a nut’s mass. They also care about the type of nut.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lucia Jacobs:\u003c/b> My other graduate student, Michael Delgado, showed the better the nut, the more time they spend. Even if you give them a random series of nuts, they will organize them as they’re caching them. And so at the end of the day, they’ve got the almonds over here, and the walnuts over there, and the peanuts over there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>And in addition to this orderly system, they actually use some stealth tactics to protect their “best nuts.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lucia Jacobs:\u003c/b> They bury them at a specific density. So the distance from one almond to the next is different than the distance from one walnut to the next because a walnut is a much bigger, more valuable nut. And so you don’t want to lose that. So what they do is they bury the walnuts more spread out so that if one squirrel finds one of their walnuts, they’re not going to immediately find their other walnuts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Smart! We heard from a lot of dog owners when we asked for listener squirrel questions… like this one…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>April Whitney: \u003c/b>This is April Whitney from Vallejo. My dog goes ballistic every time he sees a squirrel on my fence. Why do they return every day instead of just avoiding my yard? Are they gluttons for punishment or do they just love to create chaos?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral:\u003c/b> A question I, too, have had\u003cb>.\u003c/b> The expert, Lucia, says studies of other animals have shown that they will approach a predator when they know they aren’t hungry, just to sort of study the predator. And it’s possible squirrels are doing that with dogs. But also.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lucia Jacobs:\u003c/b> Animals have a great sense of humor. I wouldn’t put it past a squirrel to be teasing it, too.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> So sounds like a yes, that squirrel may in fact be messing with your dog. For the fun of it…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>Yeah, absolutely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> For the squirrel detractors out there, one key complaint is that they eat the birdseed you’re leaving out… If this is a problem for you, they actually make birdseed covered in red chili pepper that could do the trick!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lucia Jacobs:\u003c/b> Birds don’t have the taste receptors, so that the birds don’t care, and the squirrels definitely do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>And if squirrels are planting nuts in your flowerpots and then digging up your flowers when they come back…Lucia recommends sprinkling some cayenne pepper on the soil.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Ooo spicy!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Any other little factoids Lucia shared that grabbed you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>We haven’t talked about squirrel tails yet and why they’re so fluffy. I know listener Alice Hong wanted to know more about this. Lucia says squirrels use their tails for all kinds of things – insulation to keep them warm in the nest, you know they curl up in them, balance as they’re jumping all over the powerlines, but also they show emotion with their tails, kind of like cats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lucia Jacobs:\u003c/b> When you gave them a problem to solve that was very easy to solve, and then you suddenly made it impossible, they would get very frustrated. And you would see them changing their tail movements. But they also use it as a social signal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Alright, well I now know more about squirrels than I thought I’d ever know, maybe ever want to know. Thank you for bringing us all this great information, Angela.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>It was my pleasure. I feel like I understand Karla a little better now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Angela Corral is the Senior Editor of the California Report.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s it for our squirrelmania episode – almost anyway. A few years ago we had a short piece about the black squirrels you might see roaming around, especially on the Stanford campus. Stick around after the credits to learn about them and you can keep listening for our monthly podcast trivia game, too!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco by member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now we bring in reporter Ryan Levi who answered this question about black squirrels for Bay Curious some years ago. The question came from listener Ayal Sadone. He was at Stanford, getting his PhD in electrical engineering.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayal Sadone: \u003c/b>I was walking with my girlfriend, and she told me that apparently, the black squirrels in Stanford are actually a Stanford genetic experiment, run amok and that they don’t exist anywhere outside of Stanford.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> I’ve seen those black squirrels and I think I definitely did a double take the first time I saw one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ryan Levi: \u003c/b>Me too. And so I called up Cheryl Green. She’s a veterinarian and a professor at Stanford School of Medicine. And she says they get calls all the time about this myth, but it’s just not true.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cheryl Green:\u003c/b> The truth really is that the black squirrel is a squirrel that is produced when these eastern gray squirrels who carry a normal gene mutation mate and their offspring grow a black coat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> So we can think of the black squirrels kind of like the redheads of the squirrel world. If both parents have the black fur gene, they can pass it on to their little ones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ryan Levi:\u003c/b> Exactly. And they’re not just in Palo Alto or even just in California, Green says. They’ve been seen on the East Coast since the 17 hundreds, and they show up out here until the turn of the 20th century.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> OK. But that doesn’t really explain why there are so many of them on Stanford’s campus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ryan Levi:\u003c/b> Right. And so I asked Cheryl Green about this and she said there’s no hard scientific evidence or data about why there are so many out here. But anecdotally, it seems like the Black fur could be an evolutionary advantage. It helps them stay warmer. Some folks have said that the black squirrels are more aggressive and they have fewer predators than their non black brethren. And also it seems like the black fur might stand out a little better against our gray streets, meaning that the black squirrels are less likely to show up as roadkill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> That’s dark.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ryan Levi:\u003c/b> Yeah, it is. But I took the answer back to our question, Ayal, and he said in this case, he actually kind of likes the fiction a bit more than the fact.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayal Sadone:\u003c/b> I think I will stick with the urban legend one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ryan Levi:\u003c/b> Even though you know the real answer, you’re going to stick with the urban legend?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayal Sadone:\u003c/b> It’s a good story. You know, why ruin a good story?\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Look out your window on any given day, and you might see a squirrel busily collecting nuts and burying them around the yard or scampering across swaying power lines like a trapeze artist. Depending on your point of view, they might be cute furry friends or “rodents with bushy tails,” just as likely to carry disease as rats or pigeons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Last year, we asked Bay Curious listeners what they wanted to know about squirrels and got a huge response — over 50 questions about squirrel behavior, social practices, ancestry and economics. Today, we’re answering as many as we can.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We spoke to Lucia Jacobs, a cognitive scientist who has studied squirrel behavior for 40 years. \u003ca href=\"https://psychology.berkeley.edu/people/lucia-f-jacobs\">She’s a professor emerita at UC Berkeley\u003c/a> and continues researching and publishing insights into squirrel behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>First, let’s start with some squirrel basics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>How many squirrel species are there in the San Francisco Bay Area?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When people talk about squirrels, they are usually referring to tree squirrels. The Bay Area has three types: the fox squirrel, the eastern gray squirrel and the western gray squirrel. Of those, only the western gray is native to the area. The other two are introduced. People living in the East Bay are probably seeing fox squirrels – they have an orangish, tawny tint to their fur. In Marin and down the peninsula, it’s more common to see the eastern and western grays. The western variety is bigger, which is one way to tell it apart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11973514\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11973514\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/western-gray.jpg\" alt=\"A chubby gray squirrel takes up the entire frame while eating a nut.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1371\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/western-gray.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/western-gray-800x571.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/western-gray-1020x728.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/western-gray-160x114.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/western-gray-1536x1097.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The western gray squirrel is slightly bigger than the eastern gray species and is native to the San Francisco Bay Area. The western gray is often seen in Marin and down the peninsula. \u003ccite>(Nancy Strohm/iStock)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Squirrels actually evolved in North America,” Lucia Jacobs said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Scientists found a skeleton that look almost exactly like the tree squirrels we know today from about 35 million years ago. \u003ca href=\"https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1055790303002045?via%3Dihub\">They concluded that the first squirrels were arboreal\u003c/a> and that ground squirrels evolved from there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The eastern gray and fox squirrels co-evolved with the walnut tree family, which includes hickory trees. That’s partly why eastern North America was so thickly forested with a diverse array of trees when European colonizers first arrived and before they started clear-cutting everything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here’s how it works. Trees produce nuts that fall to the ground at their roots. If they stay there, weevils often eat them, or they can’t thrive in the shade of the parent tree. That’s when the squirrels get involved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Squirrels clean the nut off, and then they carry the nut away from the parent tree,” Jacobs said. “They carry the nut to an open place, and they bury it an inch down. It’s perfect; it germinates in the spring.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>An average \u003ca href=\"https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-squirrels-remember-where-they-buried-their-nuts/\">eastern gray squirrel might cache around 3,000 nuts per year\u003c/a>. If it doesn’t come back for a few of them or something happens to the squirrel, that tree thrives. And when the trees thrive, the squirrel population also thrives because there’s plenty to eat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-12-20/the-forgotten-history-of-how-cities-almost-killed-the-common-squirrel\">When European colonizers clear-cut the forests on the East Coast, squirrels almost went extinct\u003c/a>, Jacobs said. But, in the 1800s, some city planners reintroduced them to city parks as a way for city dwellers to have some connection to wild nature. Those parks acted as “refugia” for the squirrels, and their population recovered. Another fun fact: \u003ca href=\"https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/pet-squirrel-craze\">Many people kept wild squirrels as pets in the 1700s\u003c/a>. Benjamin Franklin was known for bringing squirrels to England as gifts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11973517\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11973517\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/eastern-gray.jpg\" alt=\"A small gray squirrel hands onto a thin tree branch, inquisitively looking around.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1536\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/eastern-gray.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/eastern-gray-800x640.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/eastern-gray-1020x816.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/eastern-gray-160x128.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/eastern-gray-1536x1229.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The eastern gray squirrel (Sciurus carolinensis) is not native to the Bay Area but is commonly seen here. It is very adaptable and has thrived in urban and suburban environments. \u003ccite>(Wirestock/iStock)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>What is a ground squirrel?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are many different types of ground squirrels, including prairie dogs, marmots and chipmunks, as well as the local California ground squirrel. These animals are a type of squirrel, but they live in networks of underground burrows. Ground squirrels do eat nuts, but aren’t as obsessed with them as tree squirrels. \u003ca href=\"https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=10507\">They’ll also eat seeds, greens, insects and other things.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Are squirrels rodents, like rats?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Squirrels are in the rodentia order, so yes, they are rodents. They are distant cousins to rats. Some people do consider squirrels pests, and they can carry disease.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Where do squirrels sleep?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tree squirrels like to sleep in tree hollows or in leaf nests they make high up in the branches away from predators. They make their nests cozy with finely chewed bark and can live there even during cold winters. They also take care of their babies in these nests, which are called dreys. Jacobs said you aren’t likely to see baby squirrels because the juveniles are born blind and deaf, and they stay in the nest for quite a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re not independent, really, until they’re 13 or 14 weeks old,” Jacobs said. “And they have so much to learn: they have to learn how to open nuts. They have to learn how to cache, how to move in the trees.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When a female squirrel has a litter, she will go off on her own to raise her young in her own nest. But one cute fact about \u003ca href=\"https://academic.oup.com/jmammal/article/77/4/1006/938223\">the eastern gray squirrel, in particular, is that they do sometimes share nests for warmth\u003c/a>. Jacobs said researchers need to study this behavior more to understand how squirrels choose their nestmates, some of whom do not seem related by blood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11973518\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11973518\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/eastern-drey.jpg\" alt=\"What looks like a ball of leavess its up in the branches of a coniferous tree. The small head of a squirrel pokes out.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/eastern-drey.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/eastern-drey-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/eastern-drey-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/eastern-drey-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/eastern-drey-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An eastern gray squirrel pokes its head out of its drey, a nest built high up in a tree. \u003ccite>(Sunflower Shots/iStock)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Why are squirrel tails so fluffy?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Squirrels use their tails for many things, including keeping warm in their nests, maintaining balance while prancing around the power lines, jumping from branch to branch and communicating. Jacobs said researchers have observed that squirrels will use their tails to show frustration. (KQED’s Deep Look program explored how squirrels show emotion with their tails in the video: \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUjQtJGaSpk\">Watch These Frustrated Squirrels Go Nuts!\u003c/a>)\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/ZUjQtJGaSpk'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/ZUjQtJGaSpk'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>“There aren’t that many mammal species that have such flexible tails,” Jacobs said. “If it’s upset or nervous, [it] will move its tail a certain way, as a social signal.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Do squirrels actually remember all the places they buried nuts?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Yes, they seem to. It’s hard to control for all the variables present in the wild, but Jacobs said \u003ca href=\"https://psychology.berkeley.edu/news/fox-squirrels-use-%E2%80%98chunking%E2%80%99-organize-their-favorite-nuts\">studies of squirrels in captivity showed \u003c/a>that a squirrel would find twice as many nuts that it buried as compared to nuts another squirrel buried. That indicates that they do remember where they buried things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But if they do stumble on another squirrel’s cache, they have no qualms about stealing it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Studies on the UC Berkeley campus have also shown that squirrels value nuts differently. They prize larger nuts more, so they’ll shake the nut and measure its mass in their mouth before deciding where to cache it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Even if you give them a random series of nuts, they will organize them as they’re caching them,” Jacobs explained. “And so at the end of the day, they’ve got the almonds over here, and the walnuts over there, and the peanuts over there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11973521\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11973521\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/black-eastern-gray-squirrel.jpg\" alt=\"A squirrel with black coloring and a bushy tail sits on a think tree branch.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1443\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/black-eastern-gray-squirrel.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/black-eastern-gray-squirrel-800x601.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/black-eastern-gray-squirrel-1020x767.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/black-eastern-gray-squirrel-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/black-eastern-gray-squirrel-1536x1154.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">There’s a common gene mutation in the eastern gray squirrel that turns the fur black. Many of this variety can be seen on the Stanford campus and its surroundings, leading to a myth that the black fur was a result of an experiment gone wrong. That’s false! The black-colored squirrels are just eastern grays with a gene mutation. \u003ccite>(randimal/iStock)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Depending on how much they value the nut, they’ll bury them at different distances between each nut. Almonds, for example, are less highly prized than walnuts because they are smaller. So, the squirrel might bury more almonds in a smaller area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What they do is they bury the walnuts more spread out so that if one squirrel finds one of their walnuts, they’re not going to immediately find their other walnuts,” Jacobs said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Do squirrels have distinct personalities?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s crazy because they’re not [people],” Jacobs said. “But this is a fascinating area. Certainly, you get big individual differences in temperament. And there’s a genetic component.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What we might interpret as “personality” is an evolutionary tendency for diversity, Jacobs said. Some years, bold personalities might be required to survive, while in other years, having a more timid sensibility is an asset. Squirrels are born with different temperaments to make sure some survive, no matter the conditions that year. And squirrels live a long time, so the same squirrel might be living in the same yard for 10 years, which means it probably knows you and has determined if you are a threat or not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Are squirrels taunting your dog?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maybe. Jacobs said studies of animals in Africa have shown a pattern of prey animals approaching predators when they are clearly not hungry as a way to study the predator. Squirrels might be doing that with dogs on leashes or that are penned in by fences. But also: “Animals have a great sense of humor,” Jacobs said. “I wouldn’t put it past a squirrel to be teasing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>How can you keep squirrels out of your birdfeeder or flowerpots?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Turns out squirrels don’t like chili peppers. You can buy bird seed coated in chili pepper, which doesn’t bother the birds because they don’t have taste receptors, but it definitely bothers the squirrels, who do. That might do the trick. Similarly, if squirrels dig up your flowers as they look for their nuts, a little sprinkle of cayenne pepper on the soil could keep them away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And, perhaps the most obvious advice, if you want to keep squirrels out of your yard, don’t feed them!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And, if you still want to know more about squirrels, Jacobs recommends \u003ca href=\"https://press.jhu.edu/books/title/9781/squirrels-world\">\u003cem>Squirrels of the World\u003c/em> \u003c/a>as the definitive reference on them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>When it comes to squirrels, I think there are two kinds of people in this world. There are people like my husband Sam, who call them …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sam Price: \u003c/b>Tree rats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>They see squirrels as a nuisance, just another pest that ruins the garden. And then there are people like me who, if given the chance, would happily post up under a tree and watch the squirrels do their thing all day. Their cute little cheeks as they work over a nut. Their busy tails that flick this way and that. I am quite fond of squirrels, but my affection for them is nothing compared to that of my KQED colleague Angela Corral. Angela is the senior editor of the California Report, and she seemed like the perfect reporter to tap.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral:\u003c/b> So it might have been the summer of 2020, now that I think about it. And that, of course, was Covid. So we were all home. My kids, my husband, me, my two kittens, my 90-pound dog. We’re all home all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Angela was putting peanuts out to feed the crows in her neighborhood. Which, by the way, we are not recommending. One day, she noticed someone else was interested in her offering.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral:\u003c/b> Suddenly, this little squirrel started coming around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Scene sound of Angela going opening her door, saying, “Oh! Hi! Hold on.” as she sees the squirrel.\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Angela Corral:\u003c/b> I went and sat on the porch with my peanuts, and she would just come right up to me and I would toss them sort of in front of me, you know, and she would come get them without a problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Her relationship with a little squirrel grew.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral:\u003c/b> And then eventually, she would take it out of my hand, and I was just tickled.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Scene sound of Angela talking to the squirrel while we hear it eating a peanut – “Hi! You’re so polite.”\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Angela even gave the squirrel a name. Karla.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Whimsical piano music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral:\u003c/b> And in case you’re wondering, it’s Karla with a K.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Years went by and Karla became part of the family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>My giant dog started treating Karla as if she was like one of our pets. She didn’t get worked up or excited when Karla would come to the door. They would \u003ci>nearly \u003c/i>sniff noses on the porch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Angela was even gifted a few squirrel-sized picnic tables that Karla would post up at.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral:\u003c/b> So I could sit there working. (laughing) And Karla could sit at her table eating peanuts. (laughing) And we could enjoy each other’s company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Whimsical piano music ends. Laid-back, staccato guitar begins.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Now, I know you all have stories like Angela’s, because last year we asked what you wanted to know about squirrels. I thought we would hear from a few folks, but we got more than 50 squirrel questions about everything from how they find their nuts after they’ve buried them, to whether one pesky squirrel in your yard is actually taunting your dog. So today on Big Curious, it is squirrel mania. We have lots of answers to your questions. Just ahead. I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Many of us have noticed the playful squirrels in our yards or neighborhoods, and we have questions about these critters. KQED’s Angela Corral and I went and did some digging, har har, to find out the answers. Welcome, Angela.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>Hi, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> OK, let’s start with some squirrel basics. One listener named Rita Rodriguez wants to know how many different \u003ci>species\u003c/i> of squirrels are in the Bay Area. And another listener, William, wants to know if any of them are native to our region.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>OK, I’m going to start sort of broadly and then narrow it down because I think that will help. Worldwide, there are only three broad types of squirrels: tree squirrels, ground squirrels and flying squirrels. They are in the same family and are distant cousins of each other. I spoke to Lucia Jacobs about all this. She’s been studying squirrels for over 40 years and is a professor emerita at UC Berkeley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lucia Jacobs:\u003c/b> In the Bay Area, we’ve got three species of tree squirrels. (sound of fox squirrel) The East Bay generally has the fox squirrel, which is a has kind of a orangish, you know, tawny fur. (sound of eastern gray squirrel) And then the peninsula and Marin have the eastern gray squirrel. (sound of western gray squirrel) But then they also have the native western gray squirrel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>So the western gray squirrel is native to this area, but the other two, the fox squirrel and the eastern gray, are non-native.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Then we get to our ground squirrels. There are a lot of types of them but we may not think of them as squirrels, per se.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>So, chipmunks, prairie dogs, marmots … those are all ground squirrels. Around here you’ll likely see the \u003ci>California ground squirrel\u003c/i> … they live in colonies and build networks of burrows underground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>(Sound of California ground squirrel)\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> OK, A listener named Heather Young says she’s heard squirrels often called “rodents with tails.” I mentioned earlier, my husband calls them “rats with tails.” Is that characterization fair? And how closely related to rats are squirrels?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>Well, squirrels are in the rodentia order. So, in a way, they are cousins to rats and are often considered pests that can carry disease.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Oh… It’s amazing how far some fur and some cute eyes really goes a long way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corra: \u003c/b>Really it does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> (laughing) Uh, OK, Moving on … We got a whole bunch of questions about the daily life of squirrels. You know, we often see them out there, doing their squirrel thing all alone. But sometimes you’ll see some of them hanging together. What is the social life of a squirrel like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>Well, a pretty adorable fact is that squirrels do seem to be somewhat social. The eastern gray squirrel in particular. They share nests sometimes to stay warm and seem to sort of at least “know” one another, although Lucia says we’re not sure how they choose their nest mates… and they need to do more research on the topic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> What about when you see three or four squirrels chasing each other all over the place, what are they doing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>If they’re babies, they might actually be playing. But if they look mature, it’s probably a mating chase.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Oooo!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lucia Jacobs: \u003c/b>Females come into heat just twice a year. And the males come in from all over, and then the female leads them on this big chase, and that’s her way of deciding who she’s going to you know, grace with her genetic material.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> I’ve always wondered where squirrels sleep because I’ve never caught one snoozing. And it turns out they collect green leaves and make these huge nests high up in the branches of trees…away from predators. They line them with chewed-up bark to make them cozy…and they can live in them even when it’s really cold. These leaf nests are also where their babies are born and raised.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lucia Jacobs:\u003c/b> They’re not independent, really, till they’re like 13, 14 weeks old, so they’re sticking around the nest. And they have so much to learn. They have to learn how to open nuts. They have to learn how to cache; how to move in the trees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Watching squirrels move through trees is probably what I find most compelling about them. It is some serious parkour!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>It’s amazing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> When we see a squirrel in a yard or park, a lot of what they’re doing is finding and burying nuts for the winter. Many of the questions listeners sent us were about the \u003ci>nuts and bolts\u003c/i> of squirrels’ nut hoarding if you will… Sean Malley wants to know if squirrels remember all the places they’ve buried something?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>That’s exactly the type of question Lucia gets fired up about because she’s been studying this squirrel behavior for years. She cautioned that it’s really hard to control for all the variables that exist in the wild, but says studies of squirrels in captivity showed that they found twice as many nuts that \u003ci>they\u003c/i> had buried as compared to nuts \u003ci>another\u003c/i> squirrel had buried. So, that indicates that yes, they do remember where they buried nuts. They treat different types of nuts differently depending on how much they value them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lucia Jacobs:\u003c/b> My graduate student at the time, Stephanie Preston, showed that they actually shake the nut in their mouth to estimate the mass of the nut. And depending on how heavy it is, they will carry it farther away from the competition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Wow, so they’re making an economic decision about the value of a nut-based on its mass … how fascinating. And I take it they like big nuts?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>They like big nuts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> But squirrels aren’t just paying attention to a nut’s mass. They also care about the type of nut.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lucia Jacobs:\u003c/b> My other graduate student, Michael Delgado, showed the better the nut, the more time they spend. Even if you give them a random series of nuts, they will organize them as they’re caching them. And so at the end of the day, they’ve got the almonds over here, and the walnuts over there, and the peanuts over there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>And in addition to this orderly system, they actually use some stealth tactics to protect their “best nuts.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lucia Jacobs:\u003c/b> They bury them at a specific density. So the distance from one almond to the next is different than the distance from one walnut to the next because a walnut is a much bigger, more valuable nut. And so you don’t want to lose that. So what they do is they bury the walnuts more spread out so that if one squirrel finds one of their walnuts, they’re not going to immediately find their other walnuts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Smart! We heard from a lot of dog owners when we asked for listener squirrel questions… like this one…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>April Whitney: \u003c/b>This is April Whitney from Vallejo. My dog goes ballistic every time he sees a squirrel on my fence. Why do they return every day instead of just avoiding my yard? Are they gluttons for punishment or do they just love to create chaos?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral:\u003c/b> A question I, too, have had\u003cb>.\u003c/b> The expert, Lucia, says studies of other animals have shown that they will approach a predator when they know they aren’t hungry, just to sort of study the predator. And it’s possible squirrels are doing that with dogs. But also.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lucia Jacobs:\u003c/b> Animals have a great sense of humor. I wouldn’t put it past a squirrel to be teasing it, too.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> So sounds like a yes, that squirrel may in fact be messing with your dog. For the fun of it…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>Yeah, absolutely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> For the squirrel detractors out there, one key complaint is that they eat the birdseed you’re leaving out… If this is a problem for you, they actually make birdseed covered in red chili pepper that could do the trick!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lucia Jacobs:\u003c/b> Birds don’t have the taste receptors, so that the birds don’t care, and the squirrels definitely do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>And if squirrels are planting nuts in your flowerpots and then digging up your flowers when they come back…Lucia recommends sprinkling some cayenne pepper on the soil.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Ooo spicy!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Any other little factoids Lucia shared that grabbed you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>We haven’t talked about squirrel tails yet and why they’re so fluffy. I know listener Alice Hong wanted to know more about this. Lucia says squirrels use their tails for all kinds of things – insulation to keep them warm in the nest, you know they curl up in them, balance as they’re jumping all over the powerlines, but also they show emotion with their tails, kind of like cats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lucia Jacobs:\u003c/b> When you gave them a problem to solve that was very easy to solve, and then you suddenly made it impossible, they would get very frustrated. And you would see them changing their tail movements. But they also use it as a social signal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Alright, well I now know more about squirrels than I thought I’d ever know, maybe ever want to know. Thank you for bringing us all this great information, Angela.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Angela Corral: \u003c/b>It was my pleasure. I feel like I understand Karla a little better now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Angela Corral is the Senior Editor of the California Report.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s it for our squirrelmania episode – almost anyway. A few years ago we had a short piece about the black squirrels you might see roaming around, especially on the Stanford campus. Stick around after the credits to learn about them and you can keep listening for our monthly podcast trivia game, too!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco by member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now we bring in reporter Ryan Levi who answered this question about black squirrels for Bay Curious some years ago. The question came from listener Ayal Sadone. He was at Stanford, getting his PhD in electrical engineering.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayal Sadone: \u003c/b>I was walking with my girlfriend, and she told me that apparently, the black squirrels in Stanford are actually a Stanford genetic experiment, run amok and that they don’t exist anywhere outside of Stanford.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> I’ve seen those black squirrels and I think I definitely did a double take the first time I saw one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ryan Levi: \u003c/b>Me too. And so I called up Cheryl Green. She’s a veterinarian and a professor at Stanford School of Medicine. And she says they get calls all the time about this myth, but it’s just not true.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cheryl Green:\u003c/b> The truth really is that the black squirrel is a squirrel that is produced when these eastern gray squirrels who carry a normal gene mutation mate and their offspring grow a black coat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> So we can think of the black squirrels kind of like the redheads of the squirrel world. If both parents have the black fur gene, they can pass it on to their little ones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ryan Levi:\u003c/b> Exactly. And they’re not just in Palo Alto or even just in California, Green says. They’ve been seen on the East Coast since the 17 hundreds, and they show up out here until the turn of the 20th century.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> OK. But that doesn’t really explain why there are so many of them on Stanford’s campus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ryan Levi:\u003c/b> Right. And so I asked Cheryl Green about this and she said there’s no hard scientific evidence or data about why there are so many out here. But anecdotally, it seems like the Black fur could be an evolutionary advantage. It helps them stay warmer. Some folks have said that the black squirrels are more aggressive and they have fewer predators than their non black brethren. And also it seems like the black fur might stand out a little better against our gray streets, meaning that the black squirrels are less likely to show up as roadkill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> That’s dark.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ryan Levi:\u003c/b> Yeah, it is. But I took the answer back to our question, Ayal, and he said in this case, he actually kind of likes the fiction a bit more than the fact.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayal Sadone:\u003c/b> I think I will stick with the urban legend one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ryan Levi:\u003c/b> Even though you know the real answer, you’re going to stick with the urban legend?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ayal Sadone:\u003c/b> It’s a good story. You know, why ruin a good story?\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "sunol-pulgas-redwood-city-why-bay-area-water-temples",
"title": "Triumph or Insult? The Complicated Legacy of the Bay Area's Water Temples",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In Redwood City, there’s a round, open-air rotunda that looks like it was plucked right out of ancient Rome. It has stone columns, an ornate dome and even a reflecting pool. It’s called the Pulgas Water Temple, and there’s another one just like it in Sunol, about 40 miles away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Will Hoffknecht enjoys photographing unique places around the Bay Area. These classically styled temples make for some great shots, so he’s visited a few times.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousbug]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m just trying to better understand the history of those,” Hoffknecht said. “It seems like an odd thing that there’s these multiple temples around.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The story of these temples begins back in the 1770s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the Spaniards chose the location for what’s now San Francisco, it was for strategic reasons. It was the perfect point from which to control the entrance to the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC5551699998&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“But for every other reason, it was a terrible place to establish a mission,” said Mitch Postel, the president of the San Mateo County Historical Society. “The worst problem — and they realized this from the beginning — was water.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There wasn’t much of it, especially once the Gold Rush started and the population of San Francisco ballooned. Drinking water had to be barged in from Marin County. Barrels of it were sold in the streets for as much as one gold dollar per bucket. That was more than most residents’ entire day’s pay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11972165\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11972165\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/Sunol-water-temple.jpg\" alt=\"A round classical-looking structure with columns and a red roof take up the entire frame\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1455\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/Sunol-water-temple.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/Sunol-water-temple-800x606.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/Sunol-water-temple-1020x773.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/Sunol-water-temple-160x121.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/Sunol-water-temple-1536x1164.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Sunol water temple was built to mark the spot where 3 sources of water come together in Alameda County. \u003ccite>((Lindsey Moore/KQED))\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As the population grew, San Francisco became increasingly dependent on a private company called \u003ca href=\"https://www.opensfhistory.org/osfhcrucible/2020/02/\">Spring Valley Water\u003c/a>, which had bought up the freshwater sources to the south of the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Recognizing their precarious position, city leaders started searching for freshwater elsewhere, even asking the federal government for permission to dam the Tuolumne River at the start of the 20th century. But the Secretary of the Interior wouldn’t allow it because the dam would be inside Yosemite National Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But public opinion shifted after the San Francisco \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/133039/dramatic-photos-of-1906-san-francisco-earthquake-aftermath\">earthquake of 1906 caused fires that destroyed much of the city\u003c/a>, partly because there wasn’t enough water to put them out. Congress responded to the pressure, and despite passionate objections from environmentalists, San Francisco built the O’Shaughnessy Dam in the Hetch Hetchy Valley. It’s the only time Congress has allowed a dam in an already-established national park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11972166\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11972166\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/HetchHetchyCentennial_05022023-qut.jpg\" alt=\"A long wall stretches across the right side holding back a huge lake with mountains rising behind.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/HetchHetchyCentennial_05022023-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/HetchHetchyCentennial_05022023-qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/HetchHetchyCentennial_05022023-qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/HetchHetchyCentennial_05022023-qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/HetchHetchyCentennial_05022023-qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Hetch Hetchy Reservoir in Yosemite National Park on May 2, 2023. This reservoir provides water to much of the Bay Area. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The city then bought Spring Valley Water and all its infrastructure. This included not just reservoirs but also a \u003ca href=\"https://muse.jhu.edu/article/815694/pdf\">giant water temple (PDF)\u003c/a> in Sunol. It’s a replica of the ancient \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Vesta\">Temple of Vesta\u003c/a> in Tivoli, Italy, near where several aqueducts came together on their way to Rome. One of the Spring Valley owners was a fan of the classics, and he had it built in 1910 to mark where three water sources converged on their way to San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the Hetch Hetchy aqueduct was completed in 1934, San Francisco built a second temple at the end of it — the Pulgas Water Temple. Some 20,000 people \u003ca href=\"https://waterpowersewer.wordpress.com/2019/10/28/a-marriage-of-the-waters/\">came out to watch\u003c/a> mountain water flow through the circular Roman temple onto the peninsula for the first time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today, when you turn on your tap in San Francisco — and much of the South or East Bay — 85% of the water that comes out is from the Hetch Hetchy water system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is the lifeblood of 2.7 million people,” said Steven Ritchie, assistant general manager at the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission. The water temples celebrate this engineering feat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Aanthony Lerma, stewardship coordinator for the Southern Sierra Miwuk Nation, has a different perspective: “That’s blood water that a lot of those people in the Bay are drinking,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you follow the water system upstream into the Sierra Nevada, you come to its beginning — the Hetch Hetchy Valley. It was home to Native Americans for thousands of years before Europeans arrived in California. Now it’s underwater, flooded by the O’Shaughnessy Dam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Miners that flooded into California looking for gold made their way into the Sierra Nevada, displacing or killing the Native Americans living there. The remote and enclosed Yosemite Valley became a stronghold for native Californians until a \u003ca href=\"https://www.militarymuseum.org/Mariposa1.html\">state-sponsored militia\u003c/a> burned their villages to make way for what would become the national park and, eventually, the dam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lerma was surprised to learn about the giant water temples on the other side of the state celebrating this history. “It seems very removed from what the real story and relationship is with the water system,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He suggested adding a monument that’s more representative of indigenous Californians.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think these are times and opportunities to heal,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Eight years ago, I’m out on my bicycle on Canada Road in San Mateo.\u003ci> [Music in]\u003c/i> It’s a hot summer day, and I’m totally out of water, feeling thirsty, and starting to panic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s when I see a sign for “Pulgas Water Temple” next to an open gate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Water temple?” I think. I’ve never heard of such a thing. Is it religious? Some kind of public space? But most importantly – \u003ci>is there a water fountain there?\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Once inside the gate I do find some water, but also something utterly strange and surprising: A stately rotunda that looks like it was plucked right out of ancient Rome. Tall stone columns. Ornate carvings. Even an aquamarine reflecting pool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What \u003ci>is\u003c/i> this place?” I wonder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Turns out Pulgas Water Temple is something of a roadside attraction off nearby Interstate 280.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will Hoffknecht: \u003c/b>It was just one of the things you’d see from the highway and I would go take pictures of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Bay Curious listener Will Hoffknecht of Patterson, California enjoys photography and has been drawn to take pictures of this architectural oddity over the years. He was curious enough about it initially, but then he found \u003ci>another\u003c/i> one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will Hoffknecht: \u003c/b>Then there’s Sunol … which is the one in Sunol off the 680.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Will wrote to Bay Curious asking about our region’s two Water Temples … and his question won a public voting round at BayCurious.org.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will Hoffknecht: \u003c/b>I’m just trying to better understand the history of those … It seems like an odd thing that there’s these multiple temples around … (laughter) and just why that was a choice in the first place?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>What exactly are these water temples? Who built them? And … why? Today on the show we’ll explore their grand, celebratory origins, but also how they represent something much darker. Loss, death and destruction in other parts of our state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll get into it all right after this. I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> To understand these water temples — why they’re here and what they’re for — KQED’s Katherine Monahan took a trip to the Pulgas Water Temple. We find her standing inside the room-sized structure surrounded by tall stone columns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> In the center of the temple you can look down through a hot-tub sized opening and see a stream of water running underneath. It’s just seconds away from spilling into the Crystal Springs Reservoir.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mitch Postel: \u003c/b>This now has a grate on top. To keep kids from diving in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Mitch Postel used to come here as a teenager in the 60’s. Now he’s the president of the San Mateo County Historical Society.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in scene): \u003c/b>Did people jump in and go down the slide?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mitch Postel: \u003c/b>Yeah. So they would they would jump in here\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in scene): \u003c/b>Did you?\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Mitch Postel: \u003c/b>I’m not gonna say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Carvings of lions’ heads and curling foliage decorate the top of the temple. And around its crown is an inscription in giant letters that hints at this structure’s history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mitch Postel: \u003c/b>It says, “I will give water in the wilderness and rivers in the desert to give drink to my people.” And so that is in the Bible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in scene): \u003c/b>Kind of grandiose, no?\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Mitch Postel: \u003c/b>Oh, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> The story of this place starts back in the 1770s, when the Spanish first settled in what is now San Francisco. The location they chose was perfect for controlling the entrance to the Bay — and from there, the interior of California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mitch Postel: \u003c/b>But for every other reason, it was a terrible place to establish a mission. I mean, the sun never seemed to shine, sorry San Franciscans. The soil was very sandy. But the worst problem was and they realized this from the beginning was water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>There just wasn’t much of it. There was Mountain Lake in the Presidio, and Mission Creek. And that was enough for the few hundred people living there until . . . the Gold Rush, when the population ballooned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mitch Postel: \u003c/b>Drinking water had to be barged in from Marin County in barrels, the barrels were strapped to the sides of donkeys and mules and sold in the streets of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in scene): \u003c/b>For how much?\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Mitch Postel: \u003c/b>As much as a gold dollar a bucket.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in scene): \u003c/b>$1 a gallon-ish. Yeah. That doesn’t sound all bad.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Mitch Postel: \u003c/b>Whoah. Think about, you know, 1850 when, you know, the average American worker was making about 75 cents a day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>All right, let’s do a little math. These days, the average American uses upwards of 100 gallons of water per day — most of it for flushing the toilet and bathing. But back then, those niceties would have cost more than 100 times your income.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in scene): \u003c/b>Any thoughts about how that impacted like general hygiene?\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Mitch Postel: \u003c/b>Well, you know, I’m sure it didn’t help.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>As the population grew, San Francisco became more and more dependent on a private company called \u003ca href=\"https://www.opensfhistory.org/osfhcrucible/2020/02/\">Spring Valley Water\u003c/a>, which had bought up the fresh water sources to the south of the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Their prices were extreme, but San Francisco was at the tip of a peninsula, what else could they do?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mitch Postel: \u003c/b>It was a monopoly. And I believe by 1880, something like 20% of the city’s entire public budget was going into Spring Valley Water Company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>So the city started searching for fresh water elsewhere. They asked the Federal Government for rights to the Tuolumne River, up in Yosemite National Park. But the Secretary of the Interior said no, you can’t build a dam in a national park. And that was that. Until . . .\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sounds of shaking\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>1906 . . . when a massive earthquake struck San Francisco, causing fires that the city couldn’t put out, in part because there wasn’t enough water. Much of the city was destroyed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mitch Postel: \u003c/b>And so that became a big rallying cry for San Franciscans that hey, we really need to be a city that owns its own water supply.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>The federal government responded to the pressure. And over the passionate objections of environmentalists, the city built a dam over 150 miles away, in the Hetch Hetchy Valley and began work on a giant aqueduct to bring the water all the way here. It’s the only time Congress has ever allowed a dam in an already-established national park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Spring Valley Water Company realized its monopoly was coming to an end, so it offered to sell out to San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in scene): \u003c/b>Once they got the Hetch Hetchy, did they even really need Spring Valley?\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Mitch Postel:\u003c/b> Well, yeah, they had to have a place to put the water.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in scene):\u003c/b> I see. So Hetch Hetchy gives a source.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Mitch Postel:\u003c/b> Yes.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in scene):\u003c/b> they build the aqueduct. But then they need storage.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Mitch Postel:\u003c/b> Yes.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in scene):\u003c/b> And those are these reservoirs here in the peninsula.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Mitch Postel:\u003c/b> That’s correct.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>San Francisco bought out Spring Valley Water and all the infrastructure it owned. Which included not just reservoirs, but a \u003ca href=\"https://muse.jhu.edu/article/815694/pdf\">giant water temple (PDF)\u003c/a> in Sunol, near Fremont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s a replica of the ancient Temple of Vesta in Tivoli, Italy, which is near where several aqueducts came together on their way to Rome. One of the Spring Valley owners was a fan of the classics and he had it built in 1910, to mark where three water sources came together on their way to San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the Hetch Hetchy aqueduct was completed in 1934, the city held a grand event to celebrate. It built a second temple at the end of the aqueduct. And some \u003ca href=\"https://waterpowersewer.wordpress.com/2019/10/28/a-marriage-of-the-waters/\">20,000 people\u003c/a> came out to watch mountain water flow through the circular Roman temple, onto the peninsula for the first time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Ritchie: \u003c/b>Except it was just a temporary temple, it was wood and plaster.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> Steven Ritchie is with the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Ritchie: \u003c/b>And they celebrated it and it was a great event. And then after the event was over, they tore it down and the permanent temple was built here, which is about a quarter mile away from the edge of the reservoir.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>For years, all the water from the Hetch Hetchy system passed through this temple.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in scene):\u003c/b> So at the time that it was built, this really was like, the end of the hose.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Steven Ritchie:\u003c/b> Yes, absolutely.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in scene):\u003c/b> Okay,\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Steven Ritchie:\u003c/b> A really big hose.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>The Hetch Hetchy system transformed San Francisco. From desperately needing water, it gained such abundance that it now supplies it to much of the south and east bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The mountain water is exceptionally clear and clean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Ritchie: \u003c/b>It’s so pure coming off the granite in the snow melts in the Sierra, we don’t have to filter it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Ritchie takes me out to walk on the dam of the Crystal Springs Reservoir – the one the temple flows into. It holds about 20 billion gallons of water when it’s full.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Ritchie: \u003c/b>So it’s come all the way across the width of California to get to this point. It flows by gravity, all the way here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>The reservoir is vast and glittering. And the aqueduct that feeds it is over 150 miles long. Its builders brought supplies high into the mountains with no roads or power and tunneled through granite.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Ritchie: \u003c/b>This was a grand endeavor, and is a tremendous engineering feat. This is the lifeblood of 2.7 million people here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>When you turn on your sink in San Francisco, 85% of the water that comes out is from Hetch Hetchy. And it’s delicious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, San Francisco solved its water problems, but the consequences to our east were dire for both people and wildlife.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Let’s head upstream now. Peter Drekmeier is with the Tuolumne River Trust.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Drekmeier: \u003c/b>Of all the rivers in California’s Central Valley, the salmon population is worst off in the Tuolumne River, and it happens to be San Francisco’s water source.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Drekmeier says \u003ca href=\"https://wildlife.ca.gov/Conservation/Fishes/Chinook-Salmon/Anadromous-Assessment\">salmon numbers\u003c/a> in the river are down to about 1% of historical levels. By diverting the Tuolumne’s water through the temple, into reservoirs like Crystal Springs — and from there into our sinks and toilets — we are reducing the river’s flow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Drekmeier: \u003c/b>And with less flow, the water gets a lot warmer, and it actually favors non native fish like bass, which are now out competing the native fish.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>To try to restore the ecosystem in the Tuolumne and the delta it flows into, the California State Water Board adopted the Bay Delta Plan. It would increase flows in the river, which means the Bay Area would need to take less water from it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Drekmeier:\u003c/b> And \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfcityattorney.org/2021/05/28/why-i-sued-the-california-water-board/\">San Francisco immediately sued\u003c/a>. So we modeled what would happen if the Bay Delta Plan were implemented. And we found that San Francisco could easily manage it without running out of water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>The city disagrees, and is still fighting the plan in court.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you follow the water system farther upstream into the Sierra Nevada, you come to its beginning — the Hetch Hetchy Valley. It was home to Native Americans for thousands of years. Now it’s underwater, flooded by the O’Shaughnessy Dam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Aanthony Lerma is stewardship coordinator with the Southern Sierra Miwuk Nation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aanthony Lerma:\u003c/b> Those rivers have ran red so many times throughout this history. Like, that’s blood water that a lot of those people in the Bay are drinking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>When the Gold Rush started San Francisco looking for new water sources, it also sent miners into the Sierra Nevada, displacing or killing the locals. Yosemite became a stronghold for native Californians, since it was remote and enclosed. Until a \u003ca href=\"https://www.militarymuseum.org/Mariposa1.html\">state-sponsored militia\u003c/a> came and burned their villages, making way for what would become a national park, and eventually a dam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aanthony Lerma:\u003c/b> The government came up here and forcefully took a lot of this land. You know a state-funded militia took most of this land and killed a lot of the people up here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Lerma is surprised to learn about the giant water temples over on the other side of the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aanthony Lerma: \u003c/b>It seems very removed from what’s what the real story and relationship is with the water system, and how it’s getting there and where it’s really coming from.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He says we should think about alternatives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aanthony Lerma: \u003c/b>At least some type of representation even down there? They built a big ol’ like nice, Roman, Greek, whatever aqueduct thing? How about you build something that’s more representative of the California history, our indigenous history as Californians?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sound of water rushing\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Back at the Pulgas Water Temple, I lean over the opening in the center, the one kids used to jump into, the one 20,000 people came out to see … and listen to the water that we are taking from the river. The water that is both the lifeblood of a city and blood water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Water rushing sound transitions into music \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> That was KQED’s Katherine Monahan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There is much, much more to learn about Hetch Hetchy and drinking water in the Bay Area. Check out our show notes for some resources on where you can learn more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode of Bay Curious was made by Katrina Schwartz, Bianca Taylor, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the entire KQED Family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thank you for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"excerpt": "Sunol and Redwood City each boast a classical-looking water temple marking where water flows come together. But upriver, the story is less rosy.\r\n",
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"title": "Triumph or Insult? The Complicated Legacy of the Bay Area's Water Temples | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In Redwood City, there’s a round, open-air rotunda that looks like it was plucked right out of ancient Rome. It has stone columns, an ornate dome and even a reflecting pool. It’s called the Pulgas Water Temple, and there’s another one just like it in Sunol, about 40 miles away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Will Hoffknecht enjoys photographing unique places around the Bay Area. These classically styled temples make for some great shots, so he’s visited a few times.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n What do you wonder about the Bay Area, its culture or people that you want KQED to investigate?\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Ask Bay Curious.\u003c/a>\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m just trying to better understand the history of those,” Hoffknecht said. “It seems like an odd thing that there’s these multiple temples around.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The story of these temples begins back in the 1770s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the Spaniards chose the location for what’s now San Francisco, it was for strategic reasons. It was the perfect point from which to control the entrance to the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC5551699998&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“But for every other reason, it was a terrible place to establish a mission,” said Mitch Postel, the president of the San Mateo County Historical Society. “The worst problem — and they realized this from the beginning — was water.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There wasn’t much of it, especially once the Gold Rush started and the population of San Francisco ballooned. Drinking water had to be barged in from Marin County. Barrels of it were sold in the streets for as much as one gold dollar per bucket. That was more than most residents’ entire day’s pay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11972165\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11972165\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/Sunol-water-temple.jpg\" alt=\"A round classical-looking structure with columns and a red roof take up the entire frame\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1455\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/Sunol-water-temple.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/Sunol-water-temple-800x606.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/Sunol-water-temple-1020x773.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/Sunol-water-temple-160x121.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/Sunol-water-temple-1536x1164.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Sunol water temple was built to mark the spot where 3 sources of water come together in Alameda County. \u003ccite>((Lindsey Moore/KQED))\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As the population grew, San Francisco became increasingly dependent on a private company called \u003ca href=\"https://www.opensfhistory.org/osfhcrucible/2020/02/\">Spring Valley Water\u003c/a>, which had bought up the freshwater sources to the south of the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Recognizing their precarious position, city leaders started searching for freshwater elsewhere, even asking the federal government for permission to dam the Tuolumne River at the start of the 20th century. But the Secretary of the Interior wouldn’t allow it because the dam would be inside Yosemite National Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But public opinion shifted after the San Francisco \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/133039/dramatic-photos-of-1906-san-francisco-earthquake-aftermath\">earthquake of 1906 caused fires that destroyed much of the city\u003c/a>, partly because there wasn’t enough water to put them out. Congress responded to the pressure, and despite passionate objections from environmentalists, San Francisco built the O’Shaughnessy Dam in the Hetch Hetchy Valley. It’s the only time Congress has allowed a dam in an already-established national park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11972166\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11972166\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/HetchHetchyCentennial_05022023-qut.jpg\" alt=\"A long wall stretches across the right side holding back a huge lake with mountains rising behind.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/HetchHetchyCentennial_05022023-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/HetchHetchyCentennial_05022023-qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/HetchHetchyCentennial_05022023-qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/HetchHetchyCentennial_05022023-qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/HetchHetchyCentennial_05022023-qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Hetch Hetchy Reservoir in Yosemite National Park on May 2, 2023. This reservoir provides water to much of the Bay Area. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The city then bought Spring Valley Water and all its infrastructure. This included not just reservoirs but also a \u003ca href=\"https://muse.jhu.edu/article/815694/pdf\">giant water temple (PDF)\u003c/a> in Sunol. It’s a replica of the ancient \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Vesta\">Temple of Vesta\u003c/a> in Tivoli, Italy, near where several aqueducts came together on their way to Rome. One of the Spring Valley owners was a fan of the classics, and he had it built in 1910 to mark where three water sources converged on their way to San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the Hetch Hetchy aqueduct was completed in 1934, San Francisco built a second temple at the end of it — the Pulgas Water Temple. Some 20,000 people \u003ca href=\"https://waterpowersewer.wordpress.com/2019/10/28/a-marriage-of-the-waters/\">came out to watch\u003c/a> mountain water flow through the circular Roman temple onto the peninsula for the first time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today, when you turn on your tap in San Francisco — and much of the South or East Bay — 85% of the water that comes out is from the Hetch Hetchy water system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is the lifeblood of 2.7 million people,” said Steven Ritchie, assistant general manager at the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission. The water temples celebrate this engineering feat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Aanthony Lerma, stewardship coordinator for the Southern Sierra Miwuk Nation, has a different perspective: “That’s blood water that a lot of those people in the Bay are drinking,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you follow the water system upstream into the Sierra Nevada, you come to its beginning — the Hetch Hetchy Valley. It was home to Native Americans for thousands of years before Europeans arrived in California. Now it’s underwater, flooded by the O’Shaughnessy Dam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Miners that flooded into California looking for gold made their way into the Sierra Nevada, displacing or killing the Native Americans living there. The remote and enclosed Yosemite Valley became a stronghold for native Californians until a \u003ca href=\"https://www.militarymuseum.org/Mariposa1.html\">state-sponsored militia\u003c/a> burned their villages to make way for what would become the national park and, eventually, the dam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lerma was surprised to learn about the giant water temples on the other side of the state celebrating this history. “It seems very removed from what the real story and relationship is with the water system,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He suggested adding a monument that’s more representative of indigenous Californians.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think these are times and opportunities to heal,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Eight years ago, I’m out on my bicycle on Canada Road in San Mateo.\u003ci> [Music in]\u003c/i> It’s a hot summer day, and I’m totally out of water, feeling thirsty, and starting to panic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s when I see a sign for “Pulgas Water Temple” next to an open gate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Water temple?” I think. I’ve never heard of such a thing. Is it religious? Some kind of public space? But most importantly – \u003ci>is there a water fountain there?\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Once inside the gate I do find some water, but also something utterly strange and surprising: A stately rotunda that looks like it was plucked right out of ancient Rome. Tall stone columns. Ornate carvings. Even an aquamarine reflecting pool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What \u003ci>is\u003c/i> this place?” I wonder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Turns out Pulgas Water Temple is something of a roadside attraction off nearby Interstate 280.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will Hoffknecht: \u003c/b>It was just one of the things you’d see from the highway and I would go take pictures of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Bay Curious listener Will Hoffknecht of Patterson, California enjoys photography and has been drawn to take pictures of this architectural oddity over the years. He was curious enough about it initially, but then he found \u003ci>another\u003c/i> one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will Hoffknecht: \u003c/b>Then there’s Sunol … which is the one in Sunol off the 680.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Will wrote to Bay Curious asking about our region’s two Water Temples … and his question won a public voting round at BayCurious.org.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Will Hoffknecht: \u003c/b>I’m just trying to better understand the history of those … It seems like an odd thing that there’s these multiple temples around … (laughter) and just why that was a choice in the first place?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>What exactly are these water temples? Who built them? And … why? Today on the show we’ll explore their grand, celebratory origins, but also how they represent something much darker. Loss, death and destruction in other parts of our state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll get into it all right after this. I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> To understand these water temples — why they’re here and what they’re for — KQED’s Katherine Monahan took a trip to the Pulgas Water Temple. We find her standing inside the room-sized structure surrounded by tall stone columns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> In the center of the temple you can look down through a hot-tub sized opening and see a stream of water running underneath. It’s just seconds away from spilling into the Crystal Springs Reservoir.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mitch Postel: \u003c/b>This now has a grate on top. To keep kids from diving in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Mitch Postel used to come here as a teenager in the 60’s. Now he’s the president of the San Mateo County Historical Society.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in scene): \u003c/b>Did people jump in and go down the slide?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mitch Postel: \u003c/b>Yeah. So they would they would jump in here\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in scene): \u003c/b>Did you?\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Mitch Postel: \u003c/b>I’m not gonna say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Carvings of lions’ heads and curling foliage decorate the top of the temple. And around its crown is an inscription in giant letters that hints at this structure’s history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mitch Postel: \u003c/b>It says, “I will give water in the wilderness and rivers in the desert to give drink to my people.” And so that is in the Bible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in scene): \u003c/b>Kind of grandiose, no?\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Mitch Postel: \u003c/b>Oh, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> The story of this place starts back in the 1770s, when the Spanish first settled in what is now San Francisco. The location they chose was perfect for controlling the entrance to the Bay — and from there, the interior of California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mitch Postel: \u003c/b>But for every other reason, it was a terrible place to establish a mission. I mean, the sun never seemed to shine, sorry San Franciscans. The soil was very sandy. But the worst problem was and they realized this from the beginning was water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>There just wasn’t much of it. There was Mountain Lake in the Presidio, and Mission Creek. And that was enough for the few hundred people living there until . . . the Gold Rush, when the population ballooned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mitch Postel: \u003c/b>Drinking water had to be barged in from Marin County in barrels, the barrels were strapped to the sides of donkeys and mules and sold in the streets of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in scene): \u003c/b>For how much?\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Mitch Postel: \u003c/b>As much as a gold dollar a bucket.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in scene): \u003c/b>$1 a gallon-ish. Yeah. That doesn’t sound all bad.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Mitch Postel: \u003c/b>Whoah. Think about, you know, 1850 when, you know, the average American worker was making about 75 cents a day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>All right, let’s do a little math. These days, the average American uses upwards of 100 gallons of water per day — most of it for flushing the toilet and bathing. But back then, those niceties would have cost more than 100 times your income.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in scene): \u003c/b>Any thoughts about how that impacted like general hygiene?\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Mitch Postel: \u003c/b>Well, you know, I’m sure it didn’t help.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>As the population grew, San Francisco became more and more dependent on a private company called \u003ca href=\"https://www.opensfhistory.org/osfhcrucible/2020/02/\">Spring Valley Water\u003c/a>, which had bought up the fresh water sources to the south of the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Their prices were extreme, but San Francisco was at the tip of a peninsula, what else could they do?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mitch Postel: \u003c/b>It was a monopoly. And I believe by 1880, something like 20% of the city’s entire public budget was going into Spring Valley Water Company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>So the city started searching for fresh water elsewhere. They asked the Federal Government for rights to the Tuolumne River, up in Yosemite National Park. But the Secretary of the Interior said no, you can’t build a dam in a national park. And that was that. Until . . .\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sounds of shaking\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>1906 . . . when a massive earthquake struck San Francisco, causing fires that the city couldn’t put out, in part because there wasn’t enough water. Much of the city was destroyed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mitch Postel: \u003c/b>And so that became a big rallying cry for San Franciscans that hey, we really need to be a city that owns its own water supply.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>The federal government responded to the pressure. And over the passionate objections of environmentalists, the city built a dam over 150 miles away, in the Hetch Hetchy Valley and began work on a giant aqueduct to bring the water all the way here. It’s the only time Congress has ever allowed a dam in an already-established national park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Spring Valley Water Company realized its monopoly was coming to an end, so it offered to sell out to San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in scene): \u003c/b>Once they got the Hetch Hetchy, did they even really need Spring Valley?\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Mitch Postel:\u003c/b> Well, yeah, they had to have a place to put the water.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in scene):\u003c/b> I see. So Hetch Hetchy gives a source.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Mitch Postel:\u003c/b> Yes.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in scene):\u003c/b> they build the aqueduct. But then they need storage.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Mitch Postel:\u003c/b> Yes.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in scene):\u003c/b> And those are these reservoirs here in the peninsula.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Mitch Postel:\u003c/b> That’s correct.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>San Francisco bought out Spring Valley Water and all the infrastructure it owned. Which included not just reservoirs, but a \u003ca href=\"https://muse.jhu.edu/article/815694/pdf\">giant water temple (PDF)\u003c/a> in Sunol, near Fremont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s a replica of the ancient Temple of Vesta in Tivoli, Italy, which is near where several aqueducts came together on their way to Rome. One of the Spring Valley owners was a fan of the classics and he had it built in 1910, to mark where three water sources came together on their way to San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the Hetch Hetchy aqueduct was completed in 1934, the city held a grand event to celebrate. It built a second temple at the end of the aqueduct. And some \u003ca href=\"https://waterpowersewer.wordpress.com/2019/10/28/a-marriage-of-the-waters/\">20,000 people\u003c/a> came out to watch mountain water flow through the circular Roman temple, onto the peninsula for the first time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Ritchie: \u003c/b>Except it was just a temporary temple, it was wood and plaster.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> Steven Ritchie is with the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Ritchie: \u003c/b>And they celebrated it and it was a great event. And then after the event was over, they tore it down and the permanent temple was built here, which is about a quarter mile away from the edge of the reservoir.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>For years, all the water from the Hetch Hetchy system passed through this temple.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in scene):\u003c/b> So at the time that it was built, this really was like, the end of the hose.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Steven Ritchie:\u003c/b> Yes, absolutely.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in scene):\u003c/b> Okay,\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Steven Ritchie:\u003c/b> A really big hose.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>The Hetch Hetchy system transformed San Francisco. From desperately needing water, it gained such abundance that it now supplies it to much of the south and east bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The mountain water is exceptionally clear and clean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Ritchie: \u003c/b>It’s so pure coming off the granite in the snow melts in the Sierra, we don’t have to filter it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Ritchie takes me out to walk on the dam of the Crystal Springs Reservoir – the one the temple flows into. It holds about 20 billion gallons of water when it’s full.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Ritchie: \u003c/b>So it’s come all the way across the width of California to get to this point. It flows by gravity, all the way here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>The reservoir is vast and glittering. And the aqueduct that feeds it is over 150 miles long. Its builders brought supplies high into the mountains with no roads or power and tunneled through granite.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Ritchie: \u003c/b>This was a grand endeavor, and is a tremendous engineering feat. This is the lifeblood of 2.7 million people here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>When you turn on your sink in San Francisco, 85% of the water that comes out is from Hetch Hetchy. And it’s delicious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, San Francisco solved its water problems, but the consequences to our east were dire for both people and wildlife.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Let’s head upstream now. Peter Drekmeier is with the Tuolumne River Trust.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Drekmeier: \u003c/b>Of all the rivers in California’s Central Valley, the salmon population is worst off in the Tuolumne River, and it happens to be San Francisco’s water source.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Drekmeier says \u003ca href=\"https://wildlife.ca.gov/Conservation/Fishes/Chinook-Salmon/Anadromous-Assessment\">salmon numbers\u003c/a> in the river are down to about 1% of historical levels. By diverting the Tuolumne’s water through the temple, into reservoirs like Crystal Springs — and from there into our sinks and toilets — we are reducing the river’s flow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Drekmeier: \u003c/b>And with less flow, the water gets a lot warmer, and it actually favors non native fish like bass, which are now out competing the native fish.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>To try to restore the ecosystem in the Tuolumne and the delta it flows into, the California State Water Board adopted the Bay Delta Plan. It would increase flows in the river, which means the Bay Area would need to take less water from it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Drekmeier:\u003c/b> And \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfcityattorney.org/2021/05/28/why-i-sued-the-california-water-board/\">San Francisco immediately sued\u003c/a>. So we modeled what would happen if the Bay Delta Plan were implemented. And we found that San Francisco could easily manage it without running out of water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>The city disagrees, and is still fighting the plan in court.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you follow the water system farther upstream into the Sierra Nevada, you come to its beginning — the Hetch Hetchy Valley. It was home to Native Americans for thousands of years. Now it’s underwater, flooded by the O’Shaughnessy Dam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Aanthony Lerma is stewardship coordinator with the Southern Sierra Miwuk Nation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aanthony Lerma:\u003c/b> Those rivers have ran red so many times throughout this history. Like, that’s blood water that a lot of those people in the Bay are drinking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>When the Gold Rush started San Francisco looking for new water sources, it also sent miners into the Sierra Nevada, displacing or killing the locals. Yosemite became a stronghold for native Californians, since it was remote and enclosed. Until a \u003ca href=\"https://www.militarymuseum.org/Mariposa1.html\">state-sponsored militia\u003c/a> came and burned their villages, making way for what would become a national park, and eventually a dam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aanthony Lerma:\u003c/b> The government came up here and forcefully took a lot of this land. You know a state-funded militia took most of this land and killed a lot of the people up here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Lerma is surprised to learn about the giant water temples over on the other side of the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aanthony Lerma: \u003c/b>It seems very removed from what’s what the real story and relationship is with the water system, and how it’s getting there and where it’s really coming from.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He says we should think about alternatives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aanthony Lerma: \u003c/b>At least some type of representation even down there? They built a big ol’ like nice, Roman, Greek, whatever aqueduct thing? How about you build something that’s more representative of the California history, our indigenous history as Californians?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sound of water rushing\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Back at the Pulgas Water Temple, I lean over the opening in the center, the one kids used to jump into, the one 20,000 people came out to see … and listen to the water that we are taking from the river. The water that is both the lifeblood of a city and blood water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Water rushing sound transitions into music \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> That was KQED’s Katherine Monahan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There is much, much more to learn about Hetch Hetchy and drinking water in the Bay Area. Check out our show notes for some resources on where you can learn more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode of Bay Curious was made by Katrina Schwartz, Bianca Taylor, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the entire KQED Family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thank you for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Why Is Part of Alameda Island in San Francisco?",
"headTitle": "Why Is Part of Alameda Island in San Francisco? | KQED",
"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story first published November 1, 2018.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Lori Bodenhamer has noticed something odd whenever she pulls up a map of San Francisco online.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My little shortcut to get to Google Maps is I just type in ‘SF Map,’ and then Google pops up,” Bodenhamer says. “And it outlines S.F. in red, and I noticed there were some bits of red in Alameda.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And it’s not just Google Maps being wonky. Maps from the San Francisco Planning Department confirm that a piece of Alameda Island is inside San Francisco’s borders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To understand how this is possible, we have to go back hundreds of years to when California was part of Spain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702286\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11702286\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-800x607.jpg\" alt=\"A map from the San Francisco Planning Department shows the same geographic oddity.\" width=\"800\" height=\"607\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-800x607.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-160x121.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-1020x774.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-1200x911.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-1180x896.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-960x729.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-240x182.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-375x285.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-520x395.jpg 520w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut.jpg 1670w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A map from the San Francisco Planning Department shows the same geographic oddity. \u003ccite>(San Francisco Planning Department)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>The Peraltas\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>It starts in 1820 when the Spanish government gave Luís Maria Peralta a land grant of more than 40,000 acres in recognition of his 40 years of military service. Known as the \u003ca href=\"http://www.peraltahacienda.org/pages/main.php?pageid=69&pagecategory=3\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Rancho San Antonio\u003c/a>, it covered present-day San Leandro, Oakland, Alameda, Emeryville, Piedmont, Berkeley and Albany.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Basically, the Spanish government gave him the entire East Bay (even though Native Americans, including the Ohlone and Bay Miwok, had already been living there for centuries).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Peralta never actually lived on the Rancho, but he split the land among his four sons, who settled the land, built homes, raised cattle and fostered the growth of a thriving, Spanish-speaking community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1848, California was ceded to the United States by Mexico, and in 1850, it became a state. For existing landowners like the Peraltas, this created several headaches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>U.S. squatters settled in California without respect to who had owned the land under Spanish and Mexican rule. Squatters were such a problem that Antonio Peralta, one of Luís’ sons, was shocked in 1851 to find two men actually interested in buying some of his land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>William Chipman and Gideon Aughinbaugh bought 160 acres from Antonio in 1851 for $14,000, and they would use the land to \u003ca href=\"https://alamedamuseum.org/news-and-resources/history/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">found the city of Alameda\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Antonio still had problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The U.S. government made Spanish and Mexican landowners go to court to prove their claims, and it wasn’t until 1874 that Antonio finally received a patent from the government affirming his claim to his land, including the piece he had sold to Chipman and Aughinbaugh.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Navy pushes Alameda into San Francisco\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The story picks up in 1956 when the U.S. Navy makes an eminent domain claim of about 50 acres of submerged land underneath San Francisco Bay off the coast of Alameda. (The Navy would end up revising their request down to just shy of 40 acres.)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Navy was looking to expand the Alameda Naval Air Station, which had opened just before the start of World War II and served as the launching site for the first major bombing raid of Japan after Pearl Harbor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702298\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11702298 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-800x529.jpg\" alt=\"U.S. Navy aircraft carriers USS Hancock (CVA-19), USS Midway (CVA-41), and USS Bon Homme Richard (CVA-31) berthed at Naval Air Station Alameda in 1958.\" width=\"800\" height=\"529\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-800x529.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-1020x675.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-1200x794.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-1180x781.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-960x635.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-240x159.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-375x248.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-520x344.jpg 520w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut.jpg 1489w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">US Navy aircraft carriers USS Hancock (CVA-19), USS Midway (CVA-41), and USS Bonhomme Richard (CVA-31) berthed at Naval Air Station Alameda in 1958. \u003ccite>(U.S. Navy [Public domain], via Wikimedia Commons)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The Navy had regularly filled in parts of the bay to expand the air station, but when they did it this time, they crossed over the invisible line underneath the bay that separates Alameda from San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks to the Navy, there was now a tiny piece of San Francisco attached to Alameda Island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702301\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11702301\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-800x2485.jpg\" alt=\"A newspaper clipping detailing one of Carol Heche's other legal battles borne out of her claim to submerged land off of Alameda Island.\" width=\"800\" height=\"2485\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-800x2485.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-160x497.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-386x1200.jpg 386w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-240x746.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-375x1165.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-520x1615.jpg 520w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut.jpg 900w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A newspaper clipping detailing one of Carol Heche’s other legal battles borne out of her claim to submerged land off of Alameda Island. \u003ccite>(Newspapers.com)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But no one at the time seemed to care much about this border breach. What they did care about was who the federal government would have to pay for taking this piece of land. The state of California said it was the proper beneficiary, but two East Bay women saw it differently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Carol Heche and Elinor Petersen claimed that the submerged land actually belonged to them, and therefore they deserved payment as the descendants of the founders of Alameda — William Chipman and Gideon Aughinbaugh. Petersen said she purchased the estate of Aughinbaugh’s daughter, Ella, and Heche was Chipman’s granddaughter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She was very proud of their heritage, and she was the historian of the family,” says George Gunn, curator of the Alameda Museum, about Heche. “She claimed that their property extended out into the bay.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This was the women’s central argument. According to court records, the women traced their claim through their Alameda ancestors and back to the original Peralta land grant from the king of Spain in 1820, which was, according to them, “bounded on the southwest by the sea.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In Spanish laws, the lands bounded by the sea, are lands that extended to the deep navigable waters of the sea,” Petersen wrote in a court filing in January 1962.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This begs the question of what exactly the “deep navigable waters” included and how far out these women claimed ownership underneath San Francisco Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t know how far out I own,” Petersen said in court in August 1962, according to a transcript. “It doesn’t really make any difference, because the Federal Government is protecting it for me, and I have a fine Government and I’m not worried.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But she and Heche were certain that they owned the part of the bay the Navy had taken, and they believed fervently that their claim had been confirmed by the 1874 patent, as shown by this exchange between Petersen and Judge Alfonso Zirpoli at a pretrial hearing in December 1962:\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>ZIRPOLI: The only question involved is whether or not your land comes within this patent.\u003cbr>\nPETERSEN: It does.\u003cbr>\nZIRPOLI: If it does, you are entitled to judgment in your favor.\u003cbr>\nPETERSEN: Absolutely does.\u003cbr>\nZIRPOLI: If it doesn’t, you are not.\u003cbr>\nPETERSEN: It absolutely does.\u003cbr>\nZIRPOLI: I think it is as simple as that.\u003cbr>\nPETERSEN: It does, absolutely, every bit of it.\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>But it actually didn’t.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While the Spanish land grant may have implied ownership out into the bay’s “deep navigable waters,” the 1874 patent explicitly described the southwest border as, “… along the Bay of San Francisco, at the line of ordinary high tide.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Zirpoli ruled against the women and denied their request for a new trial. Petersen and Heche appealed the decision to the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, which also ruled against them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A boundary line at ‘ordinary high water’ or ‘ordinary high tide’ cannot, by any process of interpretation, be located somewhere on or under the surface of the water a mile or more from the line of high tide or high water,” the appeals court wrote \u003ca href=\"https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/263062/elinor-e-petersen-carol-e-heche-and-51424-acres-of-land-more-or-less/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">in its February 1964 decision\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A year later, the federal government cut the state of California a check for $13,619.55 for the submerged land it had claimed nearly a decade earlier. And Heche and Petersen walked away empty-handed.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Who you gonna call: San Francisco or Alameda?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702307\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11702307\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"A view across the water of San Francisco ... from San Francisco on Alameda Island. It's trippy, right?\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-1200x900.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-1180x885.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-960x720.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-240x180.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-375x281.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-520x390.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A view across the water of San Francisco … from San Francisco on Alameda Island. It’s trippy, right? \u003ccite>(Ryan Levi/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>After the Alameda Naval Air Station closed in 1997, the Navy began transferring the land to different entities. In 2014, the Department of Veterans Affairs agreed to take over 624 acres, including the border-crossing sliver.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“From the VA’s perspective, it really doesn’t matter if it’s Alameda or San Francisco County. It’s federal property,” says Larry Janes, who’s overseeing the development of a new VA hospital and national cemetery on the former naval base.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Neither San Francisco nor Alameda zone the geographic oddity — which spans about 30 acres — and the VA has promised never to develop that part of the land because it’s home to an endangered bird species, the California least tern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s currently no regular public access to that part of the former base, but our Bay Curious question asker, Lori, couldn’t help but wonder what would happen if a crime was committed out there. Whose jurisdiction would it fall under?\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702306\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11702306\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"Bay Curious listener Lori Bodenhamer talks with Larry Janes of the Department of Veterans' Affairs about the piece of Alameda Island, now owned by the VA, that crosses over into San Francisco.\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-1200x900.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-1180x885.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-960x720.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-240x180.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-375x281.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-520x390.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bay Curious listener Lori Bodenhamer talks with Larry Janes of the Department of Veterans Affairs about the piece of Alameda Island, now owned by the VA, that crosses over into San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Olivia Allen-Price/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We actually have a contract with East Bay Regional Park District police,” Janes says. “And we have our own VA police as well, and we work with the Alameda police, so if we needed backup from Alameda, we could go to them as well.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Janes says the VA is talking to the city of Alameda about putting in a recreational trail that would hug the coastline around the sliver, so sometime in the future, anyone could walk from Alameda right into San Francisco and stand on land that was disputed all the way back to the king of Spain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> We start today’s episode on a beautiful, clear and sunny day back in 2018.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> Could you tell us where have we brought you today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> We’re on the western side of Alameda Island and we’re very close to … I see the Port of Oakland. We’re in the Hanger One Vodka Area. I think it’s called Spirits Vodka now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> I’m standing in front of a giant sign that says “Warning Restricted Area: Authorized Personnel Only” with this week’s question asker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> My name is Lori Bodenhamer. I’ve lived in San Francisco for about 20 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> We’ve come to Alameda to check out a peculiar piece of land that Lori noticed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> My little shortcut to get to the Google Maps — I just type in “SF Map,” and then Google pops up and it outlines San Francisco in red and noticed there were some bits of red in Alameda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> The border of San Francisco should be simple. You’ve got water on three sides and a straight line along the southern edge. But … not so!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> I wondered why there’s a little sliver of San Francisco on the western edge of Alameda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Theme music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> This is Bay Curious, the show where we answer your questions about the Bay Area. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Today we travel from 19th century Spanish California to a World War II-era Navy station in Alameda. All to figure out why the heck San Francisco has jumped the bay. This episode first aired in 2018 and we’re reairing it today because it tells one of the wackier histories of land ownership we’ve found. Stick around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We asked Bay Curious reporter Ryan Levi to tackle this one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> It looks like a little right triangle, just a 30-some acre sliver at the very western tip of Alameda Island. It’s all the way across the bay from San Francisco, but somehow, it’s still a part of S-F.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And honestly, I thought figuring out how that was possible would be pretty easy. Just call someone up at the city and get the answer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I start calling people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I try the City Administrator’s office \u003cem>[sound of voicemail]\u003c/em>. They don’t know and say I should email the Department of Real Estate \u003cem>[typing]\u003c/em>. They’ve also got nothing. So I reach out to the Department of Public Works where finally we have a breakthrough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I get a tip about a court case from 1964 that’s somehow connected to our sliver, but records from that far back aren’t going to be digitized so my only option is to go find it for myself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> Are you where I check in?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Front desk worker:\u003c/strong> Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> The National Archives Building in San Bruno is kind of hidden away behind the Tanforan mall and a housing development. I expected it to be kind of dungeon-y, but it’s got lots of windows and natural light and wooden tables set up for researchers. Feels like a library.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>National Archives worker:\u003c/strong> This is case 35276.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> They set me up at one of the tables with this gray file box filled with three folders bursting with documents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>National Archives worker:\u003c/strong> Looks like it’s oversized maps and stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And when I start going through them all, I realize that this case goes back a lot further than I thought. All the way back to when California was part of Spain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It starts in 1820 with a guy named Luís Maria Peralta.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/strong> He served as a soldier for the Spanish government.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> Dennis Evanosky is the publisher of the Alameda Sun newspaper and until recently was the president of the Alameda Museum. He says Peralta caught the attention of the Spanish government when he secured the release of a group of priests who had been kidnapped from Mission San Jose and taken to the Central Valley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/strong> As a thank you gift, he got a land grant that stretched all the way from El Cerrito down to San Leandro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> Basically they give him the entire East Bay, even though Native Americans like the Ohlone and Bay Miwok had already been living there for centuries. But Spain gives Peralta the land, which he then splits among his sons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fast forward 31 years. California is now part of the United States and one of Peralta’s sons, Antonio, is looking to unload some of his land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/strong> Antonio was delighted to find out that there were actually Americans that were willing to pay him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> This was because squatting was a big problem in the state’s early days … so Peralta was thrilled when two men…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/strong> William Worthington Chipman and Gideon Aughinbaugh.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> Made an offer on 160 acres of Peralta’s land where they established the town of Alameda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Peralta had a problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His land was in the U.S. now and it would take the government more than 20 years to recognize his claim with a patent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/strong> Unfortunately, by then yes the land would have belonged to him had he not sold a lot of it. And also by then Aughinbaugh and Chipman were both gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> So Peralta, Chipman and Aughinbaugh had all left Alameda by the time the government finally got around to affirming Peralta’s claim in 1874 and issuing him that patent for the land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over actor:\u003c/strong> Now Know ye, that the United States of America in consideration of the premises \u003cem>[voice fades out]\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> But the language in that patent, it’s really important for our purposes, and here’s the part you have to remember: [Music starts] the patent includes the piece Peralta sold to Aughinbaugh and Chipman and it says that its western border is…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over actor:\u003c/strong> “Along the Bay of San Francisco, at the line of ordinary high tide.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> “Line of ordinary high tide.” Remember that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape:\u003c/strong> On December 7, 1941 Japan like its infamous Axis partners struck first and declared war afterward…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> World War II comes to Alameda. Within months of Japan attacking Pearl Harbor, the brand new Alameda Naval Air Station becomes the launching site of the first major bombing raid on Japan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape:\u003c/strong> The United States aircraft carrier Hornet … part of a taskforce steaming into Japanese waters is now revealed as the secret base from which American plans first bomb Tokyo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> After the war, the station continues to grow by filling in San Francisco bay with new land. So it was totally normal when the Navy claimed about 50 acres of the bay in 1956 to expand the base.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But what happens next is not normal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the Navy adds this landfill on, it crosses over the invisible line underneath the bay that marks the border between San Francisco and Alameda. Once filled in, this tiny sliver of Alameda Island is now technically in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But no one really cares that this underwater border has been breached. What people do care about is who gets paid for this land the Navy is taking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that’s when two new players enter the arena: Elinor Petersen and Carol Heche.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Gunn:\u003c/strong> Mrs. Heche … she was a leading member of a museum when it was founded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> George Gunn is the curator of the Alameda Museum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Gunn:\u003c/strong> Everybody knew that she was the granddaughter of Chipman.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> That’s William Chipman, one of the men who bought the land from Antonio Peralta to establish Alameda back in the 1850s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Gunn:\u003c/strong> That was their one claim to fame.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> It was also how Heche and Petersen claimed ownership and demanded payment from the U.S. government for the part of the bay taken by the Navy to expand the air station.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Gunn:\u003c/strong> She was very proud of their heritage and she was the historian of a family. She claimed that their property extended out into into the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> She made this claim based on the original Peralta land grant — the one given by Spain in 1820 — which she and Petersen said extended into the quote “deep waters of San Francisco Bay.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But here’s the rub. That original Spanish land grant may have talked about “deep waters,” but remember that 1874 patent? It set the borders “along the Bay of San Francisco, at the line of ordinary high tide.” High tide is not the same as deep waters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And when the women took their case to court, transcripts show the judge was only interested in the patent, the U.S. definition of the borders. Here’s one exchange between the judge and Petersen, who represented the women in court.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Actors’ voices]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Judge Alfonso Zirpoli:\u003c/strong> The only question involved is whether or not your land comes within this patent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elinor Petersen:\u003c/strong> It does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Judge Alfonso Zirpoli:\u003c/strong> If it does, you are entitled to judgment in your favor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elinor Petersen:\u003c/strong> Absolutely does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Judge Alfonso Zirpoli:\u003c/strong> If it doesn’t, you are not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elinor Petersen:\u003c/strong> It absolutely does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Judge Alfonso Zirpoli:\u003c/strong> I think it is as simple as that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elinor Petersen:\u003c/strong> It does, absolutely, every bit of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> But the judge disagrees and rules against Heche and Petersen. They appeal the case, but to no avail.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the end, the Feds do end up paying for the land. Just shy of 14-thousand dollars to California. And the women? They get nothing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Sounds of walking on gravel]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> It’s so peaceful here. And what a perfect day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> We’re back on present-day Alameda Island with our question asker Lori looking across the bay at the San Francisco skyline. And yet…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> So you’re in San Francisco now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> That’s Larry Janes. He’s with the Department of Veterans Affairs which now owns the sliver, and he’s taking us on a tour of this restricted area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> This pond that we’re looking at here, in the summertime you’ll have several hundred Caspian terns that come here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> After the Navy closed the air station in the late ’90s, it gave more than 600 acres of it to the VA to build a new hospital and national cemetery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> From the VA’s perspective it really doesn’t matter if it’s Alameda or San Francisco County it’s federal property.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> What logistics does that mean? Like for example if a crime was committed where’s the jurisdiction?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> We actually have a contract with East Bay Regional Park District Police. And we have our own VA police as well and we work with the Alameda police so if we needed backup from Alameda we could go to them as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> But San Francisco is out of the picture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> I mean they can come over if they want but it’s a little bit of a distance for them, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> Neither Alameda nor San Francisco zone the sliver and the VA has promised not to develop it because it’s home to an endangered bird species … called the California Least Tern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> In order to ensure their well-being, we had to leave them a buffer zone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> The VA is talking to the city of Alameda about putting in a recreational trail that would hug the coastline around the sliver. So maybe one day soon, you too can walk from Alameda right into San Francisco and stand on land that was disputed all the way back to the King of Spain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Theme music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> That was Bay Curious reporter, Ryan Levi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks to Lori Bodenhamer for asking this week’s question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We are sending our January newsletter out next Wednesday – that’s January 10. In it, we’ll answer a question from listener Mandy Y.: “Who put up the large letters ‘South San Francisco The Industrial City’ on a hillside over the town? Why is it there?” If you’re curious, be sure you’re subscribed to get the answer at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/bay-curious\">BayCurious.org/newsletter\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> And we’re actually in San Francisco as we are making it today but we’re on Alameda Island. It’s weird. I’m not going to get over it. It’s just weird. It’s cool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> Thanks to Jessica Placzek and ENGINEER for their work on this episode. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’re back next week with a new episode. I’ll see you then!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Maps show a small sliver of Alameda Island is part of San Francisco. Why? The answer stretches back to 1820, when California was still a part of Spain.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story first published November 1, 2018.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Lori Bodenhamer has noticed something odd whenever she pulls up a map of San Francisco online.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My little shortcut to get to Google Maps is I just type in ‘SF Map,’ and then Google pops up,” Bodenhamer says. “And it outlines S.F. in red, and I noticed there were some bits of red in Alameda.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And it’s not just Google Maps being wonky. Maps from the San Francisco Planning Department confirm that a piece of Alameda Island is inside San Francisco’s borders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To understand how this is possible, we have to go back hundreds of years to when California was part of Spain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702286\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11702286\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-800x607.jpg\" alt=\"A map from the San Francisco Planning Department shows the same geographic oddity.\" width=\"800\" height=\"607\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-800x607.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-160x121.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-1020x774.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-1200x911.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-1180x896.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-960x729.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-240x182.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-375x285.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-520x395.jpg 520w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut.jpg 1670w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A map from the San Francisco Planning Department shows the same geographic oddity. \u003ccite>(San Francisco Planning Department)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>The Peraltas\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>It starts in 1820 when the Spanish government gave Luís Maria Peralta a land grant of more than 40,000 acres in recognition of his 40 years of military service. Known as the \u003ca href=\"http://www.peraltahacienda.org/pages/main.php?pageid=69&pagecategory=3\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Rancho San Antonio\u003c/a>, it covered present-day San Leandro, Oakland, Alameda, Emeryville, Piedmont, Berkeley and Albany.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Basically, the Spanish government gave him the entire East Bay (even though Native Americans, including the Ohlone and Bay Miwok, had already been living there for centuries).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Peralta never actually lived on the Rancho, but he split the land among his four sons, who settled the land, built homes, raised cattle and fostered the growth of a thriving, Spanish-speaking community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1848, California was ceded to the United States by Mexico, and in 1850, it became a state. For existing landowners like the Peraltas, this created several headaches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>U.S. squatters settled in California without respect to who had owned the land under Spanish and Mexican rule. Squatters were such a problem that Antonio Peralta, one of Luís’ sons, was shocked in 1851 to find two men actually interested in buying some of his land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>William Chipman and Gideon Aughinbaugh bought 160 acres from Antonio in 1851 for $14,000, and they would use the land to \u003ca href=\"https://alamedamuseum.org/news-and-resources/history/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">found the city of Alameda\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Antonio still had problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The U.S. government made Spanish and Mexican landowners go to court to prove their claims, and it wasn’t until 1874 that Antonio finally received a patent from the government affirming his claim to his land, including the piece he had sold to Chipman and Aughinbaugh.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Navy pushes Alameda into San Francisco\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The story picks up in 1956 when the U.S. Navy makes an eminent domain claim of about 50 acres of submerged land underneath San Francisco Bay off the coast of Alameda. (The Navy would end up revising their request down to just shy of 40 acres.)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Navy was looking to expand the Alameda Naval Air Station, which had opened just before the start of World War II and served as the launching site for the first major bombing raid of Japan after Pearl Harbor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702298\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11702298 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-800x529.jpg\" alt=\"U.S. Navy aircraft carriers USS Hancock (CVA-19), USS Midway (CVA-41), and USS Bon Homme Richard (CVA-31) berthed at Naval Air Station Alameda in 1958.\" width=\"800\" height=\"529\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-800x529.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-1020x675.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-1200x794.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-1180x781.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-960x635.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-240x159.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-375x248.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-520x344.jpg 520w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut.jpg 1489w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">US Navy aircraft carriers USS Hancock (CVA-19), USS Midway (CVA-41), and USS Bonhomme Richard (CVA-31) berthed at Naval Air Station Alameda in 1958. \u003ccite>(U.S. Navy [Public domain], via Wikimedia Commons)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The Navy had regularly filled in parts of the bay to expand the air station, but when they did it this time, they crossed over the invisible line underneath the bay that separates Alameda from San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks to the Navy, there was now a tiny piece of San Francisco attached to Alameda Island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702301\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11702301\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-800x2485.jpg\" alt=\"A newspaper clipping detailing one of Carol Heche's other legal battles borne out of her claim to submerged land off of Alameda Island.\" width=\"800\" height=\"2485\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-800x2485.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-160x497.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-386x1200.jpg 386w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-240x746.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-375x1165.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-520x1615.jpg 520w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut.jpg 900w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A newspaper clipping detailing one of Carol Heche’s other legal battles borne out of her claim to submerged land off of Alameda Island. \u003ccite>(Newspapers.com)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But no one at the time seemed to care much about this border breach. What they did care about was who the federal government would have to pay for taking this piece of land. The state of California said it was the proper beneficiary, but two East Bay women saw it differently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Carol Heche and Elinor Petersen claimed that the submerged land actually belonged to them, and therefore they deserved payment as the descendants of the founders of Alameda — William Chipman and Gideon Aughinbaugh. Petersen said she purchased the estate of Aughinbaugh’s daughter, Ella, and Heche was Chipman’s granddaughter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She was very proud of their heritage, and she was the historian of the family,” says George Gunn, curator of the Alameda Museum, about Heche. “She claimed that their property extended out into the bay.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This was the women’s central argument. According to court records, the women traced their claim through their Alameda ancestors and back to the original Peralta land grant from the king of Spain in 1820, which was, according to them, “bounded on the southwest by the sea.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In Spanish laws, the lands bounded by the sea, are lands that extended to the deep navigable waters of the sea,” Petersen wrote in a court filing in January 1962.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This begs the question of what exactly the “deep navigable waters” included and how far out these women claimed ownership underneath San Francisco Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t know how far out I own,” Petersen said in court in August 1962, according to a transcript. “It doesn’t really make any difference, because the Federal Government is protecting it for me, and I have a fine Government and I’m not worried.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But she and Heche were certain that they owned the part of the bay the Navy had taken, and they believed fervently that their claim had been confirmed by the 1874 patent, as shown by this exchange between Petersen and Judge Alfonso Zirpoli at a pretrial hearing in December 1962:\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>ZIRPOLI: The only question involved is whether or not your land comes within this patent.\u003cbr>\nPETERSEN: It does.\u003cbr>\nZIRPOLI: If it does, you are entitled to judgment in your favor.\u003cbr>\nPETERSEN: Absolutely does.\u003cbr>\nZIRPOLI: If it doesn’t, you are not.\u003cbr>\nPETERSEN: It absolutely does.\u003cbr>\nZIRPOLI: I think it is as simple as that.\u003cbr>\nPETERSEN: It does, absolutely, every bit of it.\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>But it actually didn’t.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While the Spanish land grant may have implied ownership out into the bay’s “deep navigable waters,” the 1874 patent explicitly described the southwest border as, “… along the Bay of San Francisco, at the line of ordinary high tide.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Zirpoli ruled against the women and denied their request for a new trial. Petersen and Heche appealed the decision to the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, which also ruled against them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A boundary line at ‘ordinary high water’ or ‘ordinary high tide’ cannot, by any process of interpretation, be located somewhere on or under the surface of the water a mile or more from the line of high tide or high water,” the appeals court wrote \u003ca href=\"https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/263062/elinor-e-petersen-carol-e-heche-and-51424-acres-of-land-more-or-less/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">in its February 1964 decision\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A year later, the federal government cut the state of California a check for $13,619.55 for the submerged land it had claimed nearly a decade earlier. And Heche and Petersen walked away empty-handed.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Who you gonna call: San Francisco or Alameda?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702307\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11702307\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"A view across the water of San Francisco ... from San Francisco on Alameda Island. It's trippy, right?\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-1200x900.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-1180x885.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-960x720.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-240x180.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-375x281.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-520x390.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A view across the water of San Francisco … from San Francisco on Alameda Island. It’s trippy, right? \u003ccite>(Ryan Levi/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>After the Alameda Naval Air Station closed in 1997, the Navy began transferring the land to different entities. In 2014, the Department of Veterans Affairs agreed to take over 624 acres, including the border-crossing sliver.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“From the VA’s perspective, it really doesn’t matter if it’s Alameda or San Francisco County. It’s federal property,” says Larry Janes, who’s overseeing the development of a new VA hospital and national cemetery on the former naval base.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Neither San Francisco nor Alameda zone the geographic oddity — which spans about 30 acres — and the VA has promised never to develop that part of the land because it’s home to an endangered bird species, the California least tern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s currently no regular public access to that part of the former base, but our Bay Curious question asker, Lori, couldn’t help but wonder what would happen if a crime was committed out there. Whose jurisdiction would it fall under?\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702306\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11702306\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"Bay Curious listener Lori Bodenhamer talks with Larry Janes of the Department of Veterans' Affairs about the piece of Alameda Island, now owned by the VA, that crosses over into San Francisco.\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-1200x900.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-1180x885.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-960x720.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-240x180.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-375x281.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-520x390.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bay Curious listener Lori Bodenhamer talks with Larry Janes of the Department of Veterans Affairs about the piece of Alameda Island, now owned by the VA, that crosses over into San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Olivia Allen-Price/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We actually have a contract with East Bay Regional Park District police,” Janes says. “And we have our own VA police as well, and we work with the Alameda police, so if we needed backup from Alameda, we could go to them as well.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Janes says the VA is talking to the city of Alameda about putting in a recreational trail that would hug the coastline around the sliver, so sometime in the future, anyone could walk from Alameda right into San Francisco and stand on land that was disputed all the way back to the king of Spain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> We start today’s episode on a beautiful, clear and sunny day back in 2018.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> Could you tell us where have we brought you today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> We’re on the western side of Alameda Island and we’re very close to … I see the Port of Oakland. We’re in the Hanger One Vodka Area. I think it’s called Spirits Vodka now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> I’m standing in front of a giant sign that says “Warning Restricted Area: Authorized Personnel Only” with this week’s question asker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> My name is Lori Bodenhamer. I’ve lived in San Francisco for about 20 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> We’ve come to Alameda to check out a peculiar piece of land that Lori noticed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> My little shortcut to get to the Google Maps — I just type in “SF Map,” and then Google pops up and it outlines San Francisco in red and noticed there were some bits of red in Alameda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> The border of San Francisco should be simple. You’ve got water on three sides and a straight line along the southern edge. But … not so!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> I wondered why there’s a little sliver of San Francisco on the western edge of Alameda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Theme music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> This is Bay Curious, the show where we answer your questions about the Bay Area. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Today we travel from 19th century Spanish California to a World War II-era Navy station in Alameda. All to figure out why the heck San Francisco has jumped the bay. This episode first aired in 2018 and we’re reairing it today because it tells one of the wackier histories of land ownership we’ve found. Stick around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We asked Bay Curious reporter Ryan Levi to tackle this one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> It looks like a little right triangle, just a 30-some acre sliver at the very western tip of Alameda Island. It’s all the way across the bay from San Francisco, but somehow, it’s still a part of S-F.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And honestly, I thought figuring out how that was possible would be pretty easy. Just call someone up at the city and get the answer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I start calling people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I try the City Administrator’s office \u003cem>[sound of voicemail]\u003c/em>. They don’t know and say I should email the Department of Real Estate \u003cem>[typing]\u003c/em>. They’ve also got nothing. So I reach out to the Department of Public Works where finally we have a breakthrough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I get a tip about a court case from 1964 that’s somehow connected to our sliver, but records from that far back aren’t going to be digitized so my only option is to go find it for myself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> Are you where I check in?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Front desk worker:\u003c/strong> Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> The National Archives Building in San Bruno is kind of hidden away behind the Tanforan mall and a housing development. I expected it to be kind of dungeon-y, but it’s got lots of windows and natural light and wooden tables set up for researchers. Feels like a library.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>National Archives worker:\u003c/strong> This is case 35276.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> They set me up at one of the tables with this gray file box filled with three folders bursting with documents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>National Archives worker:\u003c/strong> Looks like it’s oversized maps and stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And when I start going through them all, I realize that this case goes back a lot further than I thought. All the way back to when California was part of Spain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It starts in 1820 with a guy named Luís Maria Peralta.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/strong> He served as a soldier for the Spanish government.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> Dennis Evanosky is the publisher of the Alameda Sun newspaper and until recently was the president of the Alameda Museum. He says Peralta caught the attention of the Spanish government when he secured the release of a group of priests who had been kidnapped from Mission San Jose and taken to the Central Valley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/strong> As a thank you gift, he got a land grant that stretched all the way from El Cerrito down to San Leandro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> Basically they give him the entire East Bay, even though Native Americans like the Ohlone and Bay Miwok had already been living there for centuries. But Spain gives Peralta the land, which he then splits among his sons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fast forward 31 years. California is now part of the United States and one of Peralta’s sons, Antonio, is looking to unload some of his land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/strong> Antonio was delighted to find out that there were actually Americans that were willing to pay him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> This was because squatting was a big problem in the state’s early days … so Peralta was thrilled when two men…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/strong> William Worthington Chipman and Gideon Aughinbaugh.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> Made an offer on 160 acres of Peralta’s land where they established the town of Alameda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Peralta had a problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His land was in the U.S. now and it would take the government more than 20 years to recognize his claim with a patent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/strong> Unfortunately, by then yes the land would have belonged to him had he not sold a lot of it. And also by then Aughinbaugh and Chipman were both gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> So Peralta, Chipman and Aughinbaugh had all left Alameda by the time the government finally got around to affirming Peralta’s claim in 1874 and issuing him that patent for the land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over actor:\u003c/strong> Now Know ye, that the United States of America in consideration of the premises \u003cem>[voice fades out]\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> But the language in that patent, it’s really important for our purposes, and here’s the part you have to remember: [Music starts] the patent includes the piece Peralta sold to Aughinbaugh and Chipman and it says that its western border is…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over actor:\u003c/strong> “Along the Bay of San Francisco, at the line of ordinary high tide.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> “Line of ordinary high tide.” Remember that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape:\u003c/strong> On December 7, 1941 Japan like its infamous Axis partners struck first and declared war afterward…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> World War II comes to Alameda. Within months of Japan attacking Pearl Harbor, the brand new Alameda Naval Air Station becomes the launching site of the first major bombing raid on Japan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape:\u003c/strong> The United States aircraft carrier Hornet … part of a taskforce steaming into Japanese waters is now revealed as the secret base from which American plans first bomb Tokyo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> After the war, the station continues to grow by filling in San Francisco bay with new land. So it was totally normal when the Navy claimed about 50 acres of the bay in 1956 to expand the base.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But what happens next is not normal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the Navy adds this landfill on, it crosses over the invisible line underneath the bay that marks the border between San Francisco and Alameda. Once filled in, this tiny sliver of Alameda Island is now technically in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But no one really cares that this underwater border has been breached. What people do care about is who gets paid for this land the Navy is taking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that’s when two new players enter the arena: Elinor Petersen and Carol Heche.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Gunn:\u003c/strong> Mrs. Heche … she was a leading member of a museum when it was founded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> George Gunn is the curator of the Alameda Museum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Gunn:\u003c/strong> Everybody knew that she was the granddaughter of Chipman.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> That’s William Chipman, one of the men who bought the land from Antonio Peralta to establish Alameda back in the 1850s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Gunn:\u003c/strong> That was their one claim to fame.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> It was also how Heche and Petersen claimed ownership and demanded payment from the U.S. government for the part of the bay taken by the Navy to expand the air station.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Gunn:\u003c/strong> She was very proud of their heritage and she was the historian of a family. She claimed that their property extended out into into the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> She made this claim based on the original Peralta land grant — the one given by Spain in 1820 — which she and Petersen said extended into the quote “deep waters of San Francisco Bay.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But here’s the rub. That original Spanish land grant may have talked about “deep waters,” but remember that 1874 patent? It set the borders “along the Bay of San Francisco, at the line of ordinary high tide.” High tide is not the same as deep waters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And when the women took their case to court, transcripts show the judge was only interested in the patent, the U.S. definition of the borders. Here’s one exchange between the judge and Petersen, who represented the women in court.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Actors’ voices]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Judge Alfonso Zirpoli:\u003c/strong> The only question involved is whether or not your land comes within this patent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elinor Petersen:\u003c/strong> It does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Judge Alfonso Zirpoli:\u003c/strong> If it does, you are entitled to judgment in your favor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elinor Petersen:\u003c/strong> Absolutely does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Judge Alfonso Zirpoli:\u003c/strong> If it doesn’t, you are not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elinor Petersen:\u003c/strong> It absolutely does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Judge Alfonso Zirpoli:\u003c/strong> I think it is as simple as that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elinor Petersen:\u003c/strong> It does, absolutely, every bit of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> But the judge disagrees and rules against Heche and Petersen. They appeal the case, but to no avail.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the end, the Feds do end up paying for the land. Just shy of 14-thousand dollars to California. And the women? They get nothing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Sounds of walking on gravel]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> It’s so peaceful here. And what a perfect day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> We’re back on present-day Alameda Island with our question asker Lori looking across the bay at the San Francisco skyline. And yet…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> So you’re in San Francisco now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> That’s Larry Janes. He’s with the Department of Veterans Affairs which now owns the sliver, and he’s taking us on a tour of this restricted area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> This pond that we’re looking at here, in the summertime you’ll have several hundred Caspian terns that come here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> After the Navy closed the air station in the late ’90s, it gave more than 600 acres of it to the VA to build a new hospital and national cemetery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> From the VA’s perspective it really doesn’t matter if it’s Alameda or San Francisco County it’s federal property.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> What logistics does that mean? Like for example if a crime was committed where’s the jurisdiction?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> We actually have a contract with East Bay Regional Park District Police. And we have our own VA police as well and we work with the Alameda police so if we needed backup from Alameda we could go to them as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> But San Francisco is out of the picture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> I mean they can come over if they want but it’s a little bit of a distance for them, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> Neither Alameda nor San Francisco zone the sliver and the VA has promised not to develop it because it’s home to an endangered bird species … called the California Least Tern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> In order to ensure their well-being, we had to leave them a buffer zone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> The VA is talking to the city of Alameda about putting in a recreational trail that would hug the coastline around the sliver. So maybe one day soon, you too can walk from Alameda right into San Francisco and stand on land that was disputed all the way back to the King of Spain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Theme music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> That was Bay Curious reporter, Ryan Levi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks to Lori Bodenhamer for asking this week’s question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We are sending our January newsletter out next Wednesday – that’s January 10. In it, we’ll answer a question from listener Mandy Y.: “Who put up the large letters ‘South San Francisco The Industrial City’ on a hillside over the town? Why is it there?” If you’re curious, be sure you’re subscribed to get the answer at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/bay-curious\">BayCurious.org/newsletter\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> And we’re actually in San Francisco as we are making it today but we’re on Alameda Island. It’s weird. I’m not going to get over it. It’s just weird. It’s cool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> Thanks to Jessica Placzek and ENGINEER for their work on this episode. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’re back next week with a new episode. I’ll see you then!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Dialing 'POP-CORN' Once Gave You the Time",
"headTitle": "Dialing ‘POP-CORN’ Once Gave You the Time | KQED",
"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>Read the transcript for this episode\u003c/em>\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For decades, there was a phone service in Northern California that would read you the time and date if you dialed POP-CORN, the letters that represented 767-2676. That service went dark back in 2007, and Bay Curious listener George wants to know why. In this nostalgic episode, we take a romp through the innovative technology that powered time-and-date services, and meet the beloved voice behind POP-CORN, Joanne Daniels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Read the web version of this episode here: \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11853891/you-used-to-be-able-to-call-pop-corn-and-get-the-time-what-happened-to-that\">You Used to Be Able to Call POP-CORN and Get the Time. What Happened to That?\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC6318064323&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reported by Christopher Beale. This episode was made by Olivia Allen-Price, Katrina Schwartz, Suzie Racho, Christopher Beale and Katie McMurran. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan, and the entire KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> OK, so here is a throwback memory some of you might be familiar with…For decades, there was a phone service in Northern California that would read you the time if you dialed up a number. It was called POPCORN. Or 767-2676 if you wanna be boring about it. When you needed the exact time, you could dial up this number, and an automated message would play…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival Recording:\u003c/strong> At the tone, Pacific Daylight Time Will Be…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Listener 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because we spent a lot of time calling popcorn, I still remember her voice.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Listener 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you’re inside the BART station, you could look up and you could see what time it was. But once you were outside the BART station, you were oblivious to what time it was. So they need just find a pay phone and you just dial popcorn. And that’s how you knew if your mom was late or when the next BART train was coming. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a handy service for a while. But in 2007, POPCORN went dark. A Bay Curious listener named George wants to know why. Today, we’re … looking at the history and ultimate demise of POPCORN. This episode first ran on Bay Curious in 2021 and is one of our team’s all-time favorite episodes. Stay tuned. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Reporter Christopher Beale takes us inside the wonderful world of POPCORN…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Amstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Telephone service began in this country in 1878. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Peter Amstein.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Amstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I am the president of the board of directors of the telecommunications history group.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>In the years following Alexander Graham Bell’s invention, phone service begins to spread across the country, and those earliest phones were connected by operators.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you wanted to make a call, you would pick up the handset and speak to a human who would manually connect you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Archival sound: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is information. May I help you? Yes, I’d like the new number of Wilson’s meat market. 1191 Sycamore Street, please. One moment, please. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Amstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The phone company wanted to be friendly and helpful. And certainly, if the operators weren’t too busy and had time, they would answer all sorts of questions for people, including about what the weather was…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the current time. In those days, unless you had a good wristwatch or clock, that you remembered to wind. You may not have had completely accurate time on you like we do today. That’s where the operator came in. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Amstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Starting in 1870 already, Western Union, who was the Telegraph company, offered a nationwide, highly accurate time service, where they would install a clock in your business that was controlled centrally by their master clock in New York City and represented super accurate it’s time for the day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You might find this type of clock in a railroad station, and the phone company would have had one as well. So, while it wasn’t an official service, you could call the operator and say, “What time ya got?”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Amstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She would tell you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that was pretty much the norm until 1918 when our planet’s last great pandemic made its way through the population. The Spanish Flu killed hundreds of thousands of Americans. The country was at war with an invisible force and \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">communication\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> was an important weapon. Those early operators became — essential workers, you might say.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Amstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The phone company started putting notices, the newspapers, telling people the operators would no longer answer questions like what time it was, because they needed them to concentrate fully on connecting people’s phone calls. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By the time the Spanish Flu ran its course in the early 20s, some cities were experimenting with a semi-automated, live time-of-day service. This was a doozy. To get the time, you would dial a number and be added to a very brief queue. This machine would play a beep every 7.5 seconds, you’d hear the beep and be connected, along with all the other callers in the queue.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Amstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then a human being, always a woman, would be sitting at a desk, looking at a clock and reading out the time live, and then waiting for the beep and then reading it out. Live.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you called in during the brief window where she was reading each quarter minute — you’d be queued for the next reading…7 and a half seconds later. Can you imagine this being your job? At the tone, it will be 9:55 and 45 seconds. At the tone, it will be 9:56 and 00 seconds. I’m already bored. In addition to being boring — this just wasn’t a feasible long-term answer to the need for time. The world was changing rapidly and a completely automated solution was needed. The good news — the phone company already had some useful technology just laying around. Called a drum recorder — these machines were used to playback repetitive messages on the phone like: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Phone recording:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you’d like to make a call, please hang up and try again. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, we’re talking about early tape deck technology. But that tech-inspired a man named John Franklin.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Amstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who was the proprietor of something called Tick Tock Ginger ale \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To create his own ad-supported time and date phone service. The first of its kind.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Amstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">he used one of the phone companies drum recorders and modified it so that it would always announce the current time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">John Franklin’s invention would help him found the Audichron company in the 1930s. The technology they created was installed in cities big and small across the country. Audichron would hire an actress to read the times and dates and even sponsors in some cases. And then that modified drum recorder technology would handle the playback. In each region, the time service would have its own dedicated line, or in the case of Northern California … 30,000 dedicated lines …more on that in a second. The announcer in Northern California’s recordings, lovingly referred to as the time lady from the 1960s to the very end it was Ms. Joanne Daniels. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joanne Daniels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Good afternoon, at the tone Pacific Daylight Time will be 12:24 and 10 seconds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b> I think this is so cool — as the time, lady Joanne had a sort of a general American accent, but in real life, she has a southern accent that she can turn on and off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joanne Daniels: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since we’re having a friendly conversation, I’m just being myself.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joanne talked to Steve Rubenstein of the San Francisco Chronicle in August of 2007.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Rubenstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ms. Daniels, we’re speaking because, uh, AT&T has announced here in Northern California that it is canceling the time service recording as of September 19th, which is more or less the end of an era. And, uh, Ms. Daniels, this a distressing day out here in California? Is it distressing for you in Atlanta to hear that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joanne Daniels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It certainly is distressing. I feel like I’m fading away. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are likely two main reasons that POPCORN was abandoned. The first has to do with the way the number is dialed. You would start with your area code, 510 or 415, etc. Then dial 767 (this was the POP) in popcorn, and it worked all over Northern California. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Amstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Any four digits that you dialed after seven, six, seven would get you the time of day service.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And we’re not talking about just one phone number in each area code here. We’re talking tens of thousands of phone numbers directed at POPCORN.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Amstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was a technical shortcut for them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By eliminating that shortcut and POPCORN…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Amstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were able to get 30,000 new phone numbers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The other main reason popcorn, and similar services across the country began to go away — the prevalence of new technologies like our cell phones. Which always have the correct time — but are also always listening to us in a not-at-all-creepy sort of way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Siri: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey, I heard that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2007, Steve Jobs announced the first ever iPhone…and just three months later — time caught up with POPCORN. And AT&T pulled the plug. Joanne Daniels told the Chronicle that she thinks that’s really sad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joanne Daniels: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it’s filled a need for a lot of people that aren’t quite, as I would say, modern as the trend is going.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are there still any time-of-day services in operation today?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Amstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sure. Yes. For example, you can call the US Naval Observatory in Washington, DC, at 202-762-1401. And here the time of day recording, of course, you get East Coast time that way. You can also call the National Institute of Standards and Technologies. Time of day number in Boulder, Colorado. There are also still a fair number of advertisers sponsored local time-of-day numbers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Including, by the way, 415-Pop-Corn in San Francisco…Where today, you’ll find an ad, the date and the time of day. Of course, these days, your smart home or smartphone’s digital assistant can give you the date, the time, the weather, and more. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Siri:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But, we will never be able to replace …the POPCORN time lady. She was the best.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joanne Daniels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m going to miss being with you. And I would like to thank everyone in San Francisco for listening to me for all these many years.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">John Franklin’s Tick Tock Ginger Ale faded into obscurity, but Audichron is still around, making computerized automated phone services to this day under a different name. Apple did alright with their iPhone. And as of December 2020 — Joanne Daniels is retired and living in Atlanta, GA.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joanne Daniels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The time in San Francisco is time for me to say goodbye.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Dial tone\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(End of story)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Reporter Christopher Beale\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Olivia Allen-Price: We are sad to share that Joanne Daniels died in February 2023. She was 91. In her obituary, it’s said she always had a smile on her face and was a joyous influence to those around her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s all for today, folks. If you enjoyed this story, maybe it brought back some warm, fuzzy memories..? Do us a solid and share it with a friend. We rely on word of mouth to grow, so everything you can do helps! Thanks!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Suzie Racho, Katie McMurran and me, Olivia Allen-Price. \u003c/span>Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Bianca Taylor, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’re off next week for the holidays, but we’ll be back the first week in January. Thank you so much for listening and I wish you joy and peace in these finals weeks of 2023.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>Read the transcript for this episode\u003c/em>\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For decades, there was a phone service in Northern California that would read you the time and date if you dialed POP-CORN, the letters that represented 767-2676. That service went dark back in 2007, and Bay Curious listener George wants to know why. In this nostalgic episode, we take a romp through the innovative technology that powered time-and-date services, and meet the beloved voice behind POP-CORN, Joanne Daniels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Read the web version of this episode here: \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11853891/you-used-to-be-able-to-call-pop-corn-and-get-the-time-what-happened-to-that\">You Used to Be Able to Call POP-CORN and Get the Time. What Happened to That?\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC6318064323&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reported by Christopher Beale. This episode was made by Olivia Allen-Price, Katrina Schwartz, Suzie Racho, Christopher Beale and Katie McMurran. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan, and the entire KQED family.\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> OK, so here is a throwback memory some of you might be familiar with…For decades, there was a phone service in Northern California that would read you the time if you dialed up a number. It was called POPCORN. Or 767-2676 if you wanna be boring about it. When you needed the exact time, you could dial up this number, and an automated message would play…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival Recording:\u003c/strong> At the tone, Pacific Daylight Time Will Be…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Listener 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because we spent a lot of time calling popcorn, I still remember her voice.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Listener 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you’re inside the BART station, you could look up and you could see what time it was. But once you were outside the BART station, you were oblivious to what time it was. So they need just find a pay phone and you just dial popcorn. And that’s how you knew if your mom was late or when the next BART train was coming. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a handy service for a while. But in 2007, POPCORN went dark. A Bay Curious listener named George wants to know why. Today, we’re … looking at the history and ultimate demise of POPCORN. This episode first ran on Bay Curious in 2021 and is one of our team’s all-time favorite episodes. Stay tuned. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Reporter Christopher Beale takes us inside the wonderful world of POPCORN…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Amstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Telephone service began in this country in 1878. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Peter Amstein.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Amstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I am the president of the board of directors of the telecommunications history group.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>In the years following Alexander Graham Bell’s invention, phone service begins to spread across the country, and those earliest phones were connected by operators.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you wanted to make a call, you would pick up the handset and speak to a human who would manually connect you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Archival sound: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is information. May I help you? Yes, I’d like the new number of Wilson’s meat market. 1191 Sycamore Street, please. One moment, please. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Amstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The phone company wanted to be friendly and helpful. And certainly, if the operators weren’t too busy and had time, they would answer all sorts of questions for people, including about what the weather was…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the current time. In those days, unless you had a good wristwatch or clock, that you remembered to wind. You may not have had completely accurate time on you like we do today. That’s where the operator came in. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Amstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Starting in 1870 already, Western Union, who was the Telegraph company, offered a nationwide, highly accurate time service, where they would install a clock in your business that was controlled centrally by their master clock in New York City and represented super accurate it’s time for the day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You might find this type of clock in a railroad station, and the phone company would have had one as well. So, while it wasn’t an official service, you could call the operator and say, “What time ya got?”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Amstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She would tell you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that was pretty much the norm until 1918 when our planet’s last great pandemic made its way through the population. The Spanish Flu killed hundreds of thousands of Americans. The country was at war with an invisible force and \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">communication\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> was an important weapon. Those early operators became — essential workers, you might say.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Amstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The phone company started putting notices, the newspapers, telling people the operators would no longer answer questions like what time it was, because they needed them to concentrate fully on connecting people’s phone calls. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By the time the Spanish Flu ran its course in the early 20s, some cities were experimenting with a semi-automated, live time-of-day service. This was a doozy. To get the time, you would dial a number and be added to a very brief queue. This machine would play a beep every 7.5 seconds, you’d hear the beep and be connected, along with all the other callers in the queue.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Amstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then a human being, always a woman, would be sitting at a desk, looking at a clock and reading out the time live, and then waiting for the beep and then reading it out. Live.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you called in during the brief window where she was reading each quarter minute — you’d be queued for the next reading…7 and a half seconds later. Can you imagine this being your job? At the tone, it will be 9:55 and 45 seconds. At the tone, it will be 9:56 and 00 seconds. I’m already bored. In addition to being boring — this just wasn’t a feasible long-term answer to the need for time. The world was changing rapidly and a completely automated solution was needed. The good news — the phone company already had some useful technology just laying around. Called a drum recorder — these machines were used to playback repetitive messages on the phone like: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Phone recording:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you’d like to make a call, please hang up and try again. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, we’re talking about early tape deck technology. But that tech-inspired a man named John Franklin.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Amstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who was the proprietor of something called Tick Tock Ginger ale \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To create his own ad-supported time and date phone service. The first of its kind.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Amstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">he used one of the phone companies drum recorders and modified it so that it would always announce the current time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">John Franklin’s invention would help him found the Audichron company in the 1930s. The technology they created was installed in cities big and small across the country. Audichron would hire an actress to read the times and dates and even sponsors in some cases. And then that modified drum recorder technology would handle the playback. In each region, the time service would have its own dedicated line, or in the case of Northern California … 30,000 dedicated lines …more on that in a second. The announcer in Northern California’s recordings, lovingly referred to as the time lady from the 1960s to the very end it was Ms. Joanne Daniels. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joanne Daniels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Good afternoon, at the tone Pacific Daylight Time will be 12:24 and 10 seconds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b> I think this is so cool — as the time, lady Joanne had a sort of a general American accent, but in real life, she has a southern accent that she can turn on and off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joanne Daniels: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since we’re having a friendly conversation, I’m just being myself.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joanne talked to Steve Rubenstein of the San Francisco Chronicle in August of 2007.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Rubenstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ms. Daniels, we’re speaking because, uh, AT&T has announced here in Northern California that it is canceling the time service recording as of September 19th, which is more or less the end of an era. And, uh, Ms. Daniels, this a distressing day out here in California? Is it distressing for you in Atlanta to hear that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joanne Daniels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It certainly is distressing. I feel like I’m fading away. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are likely two main reasons that POPCORN was abandoned. The first has to do with the way the number is dialed. You would start with your area code, 510 or 415, etc. Then dial 767 (this was the POP) in popcorn, and it worked all over Northern California. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Amstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Any four digits that you dialed after seven, six, seven would get you the time of day service.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And we’re not talking about just one phone number in each area code here. We’re talking tens of thousands of phone numbers directed at POPCORN.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Amstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was a technical shortcut for them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By eliminating that shortcut and POPCORN…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Amstein: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were able to get 30,000 new phone numbers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The other main reason popcorn, and similar services across the country began to go away — the prevalence of new technologies like our cell phones. Which always have the correct time — but are also always listening to us in a not-at-all-creepy sort of way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Siri: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey, I heard that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2007, Steve Jobs announced the first ever iPhone…and just three months later — time caught up with POPCORN. And AT&T pulled the plug. Joanne Daniels told the Chronicle that she thinks that’s really sad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joanne Daniels: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it’s filled a need for a lot of people that aren’t quite, as I would say, modern as the trend is going.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are there still any time-of-day services in operation today?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Amstein:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sure. Yes. For example, you can call the US Naval Observatory in Washington, DC, at 202-762-1401. And here the time of day recording, of course, you get East Coast time that way. You can also call the National Institute of Standards and Technologies. Time of day number in Boulder, Colorado. There are also still a fair number of advertisers sponsored local time-of-day numbers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Including, by the way, 415-Pop-Corn in San Francisco…Where today, you’ll find an ad, the date and the time of day. Of course, these days, your smart home or smartphone’s digital assistant can give you the date, the time, the weather, and more. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Siri:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But, we will never be able to replace …the POPCORN time lady. She was the best.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joanne Daniels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m going to miss being with you. And I would like to thank everyone in San Francisco for listening to me for all these many years.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">John Franklin’s Tick Tock Ginger Ale faded into obscurity, but Audichron is still around, making computerized automated phone services to this day under a different name. Apple did alright with their iPhone. And as of December 2020 — Joanne Daniels is retired and living in Atlanta, GA.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joanne Daniels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The time in San Francisco is time for me to say goodbye.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Dial tone\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(End of story)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Reporter Christopher Beale\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Olivia Allen-Price: We are sad to share that Joanne Daniels died in February 2023. She was 91. In her obituary, it’s said she always had a smile on her face and was a joyous influence to those around her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s all for today, folks. If you enjoyed this story, maybe it brought back some warm, fuzzy memories..? Do us a solid and share it with a friend. We rely on word of mouth to grow, so everything you can do helps! Thanks!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Suzie Racho, Katie McMurran and me, Olivia Allen-Price. \u003c/span>Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Bianca Taylor, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’re off next week for the holidays, but we’ll be back the first week in January. Thank you so much for listening and I wish you joy and peace in these finals weeks of 2023.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/div>"
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},
"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">View the full episode transcript\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[dropcap] D[/dropcap]uring a casual Christmas celebration with her 90-year-old grandmother last year, Becca Gularte, a self-proclaimed history buff and third-generation Californian, was rocked by a family story she had never heard before. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 1942, her grandma Laura Gularte, then an elementary school kid in Santa Cruz, was forced to leave her coastal home because her dad was an Italian citizen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Becca was taken aback. She peppered Laura with questions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">‘Why did you have to move across town? What do you mean it was because you were Italians?’” Becca remembers. “We had all heard so much about Japanese internment growing up. We were all just so surprised that this had happened to this whole other population.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Becca’s husband, James King, asked Bay Curious to investigate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And as we found out, Becca’s great-grandfather was one of roughly 10,000 Italian citizens living in California who were forced to leave their homes during World War II. It was just one of many government measures meant to protect the West Coast from an enemy invasion that never came. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Wartime security\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Within months of the attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941, as more than 100,000 Japanese Americans were being sent to incarceration camps, other ethnic groups also became the target of new wartime security measures. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Italian citizens living near California’s coastline and military sites — some 10,000 of them — were forced to leave their homes and find somewhere else to live.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Laura Gularte’s father, Quinto Neri, was one of them. Neri left Tuscany in Northern Italy in 1911, eventually settling in Santa Cruz, California. He bought land on the coast and became a Brussels sprout farmer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Laura was just 7 years old when her family had to move from their coastal home in Santa Cruz to just across town, which was outside of an area prohibited by the U.S. military. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“It had a big impact on my father because he was farming rented land that was in the restricted area. So he had to give up his farming,” Laura Gularte remembers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11969477\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11969477\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Gulartes_cropped.jpg\" alt=\"An elderly woman poses with six adult grandchildren at her 90th birthday party. \" width=\"1920\" height=\"1231\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Gulartes_cropped.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Gulartes_cropped-800x513.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Gulartes_cropped-1020x654.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Gulartes_cropped-160x103.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Gulartes_cropped-1536x985.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Laura Gularte, middle, at her 90th birthday party with all of her grandchildren. Bay Curious question-asker Becca Gularte is on the far left. \u003ccite>(Courtesy photo)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After Italy and Germany declared war on the United States, President Franklin Roosevelt gave military commanders and other officials sweeping rights to protect the homeland. These new powers led to the mass incarceration of Japanese Americans as well as a slew of new rules on Italian and German citizens living in the U.S.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This war is a new kind of war,” Roosevelt says in a February 1942 speech. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We shall give up conveniences and modify the routine of our lives if our country asks us to do so. We will do it cheerfully.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Italian citizens had to register as enemy aliens, and many were subject to an 8 p.m. curfew. They couldn’t travel more than 5 miles away from home. People’s houses were searched for “contraband,” including cameras and radios. So-called enemy aliens could be arrested if they violated the new rules.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But the new security measures were applied differently across the United States, and General John DeWitt, who oversaw security for the West Coast, was much more draconian than his counterparts elsewhere. On the East Coast, for example, Italian citizens had travel restrictions, but they weren’t subject to curfew or the mass relocation ordered by General DeWitt, historians say.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[DeWitt] was terrified that under his watch, the West Coast was going to be invaded,” says Lawrence DiStasi, author and editor of \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.heydaybooks.com/catalog/una-storia-segreta-the-secret-history-of-italian-american-evacuation-and-internment-during-world-war-ii/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cem>Una Storia Segreta: The Secret History of Italian American Evacuation and Internment during World War II\u003c/em>\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">DiStasi says “paranoia” led General DeWitt to evict Italians from large swaths of the Pacific coast to avoid an enemy invasion. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“It was partly hysteria, partly overkill, I think.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Bay Area Italians in limbo\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Millions of Italians came to the U.S. for a better life before World War II, many landing in urban centers like New York City. But others ventured to California, becoming fishermen, farmworkers and helping to grow the wine industry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Italians all around the San Francisco Bay Area were living in the newly declared prohibited zones, including thousands in the cities of Alameda, Richmond and Pittsburg. At least 1,500 Italians were relocated out of Pittsburg because of their proximity to a military site, says Vince Ferrante, president of the Pittsburg Italian American Club and historian for the Pittsburg Historical Society. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“Some families lost their businesses, lost their livelihoods,” he says. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To those who had to move, like Al Bruzzone, 92, in Richmond, the dividing line between what was restricted or not seemed pretty arbitrary. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11969474\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11969474\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Bruzzone.jpg\" alt=\"An elderly man sitting outside. \" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Bruzzone.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Bruzzone-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Bruzzone-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Bruzzone-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Bruzzone-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Al Bruzzone, 92, grew up in the East Bay city of Richmond and still lives there. When his parents were forced to relocate during World War II, he temporarily stayed in an Oakland apartment with his parents. \u003ccite>(Pauline Bartolone/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“If you lived west of San Pablo Avenue, you had the move. If you lived east of San Pablo Avenue, you didn’t have to worry about it,” he says.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bruzzone grew up on his family’s 40-acre lettuce farm in Richmond. He still remembers being 11 years old when the relocation orders came. It split his family up — he and his two younger siblings moved with his parents to a rented apartment in Oakland. But his siblings who were old enough to live by themselves, and American-born, stayed in Richmond and worked the farm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“On weekends, my brother Jim and I, we would go back. My brothers would pick us up, and we’d go back to where I was growing up,” remembers Bruzzone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Other Italians who didn’t have the money to rent homes when they were relocated moved in with friends or lived in substandard migrant housing. Bruzzone thought the whole ordeal was a big government mistake. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“Most of the people came to this country because they were poor in Europe and they had a chance to accomplish something here,” he says. “They would never, never, never go fight against the country because they were doing so well here.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Italian fisherman\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">At the onset of the war, 80% of California’s fishermen were Italian. In 1942, their boats were seized by the U.S. Coast Guard, as the late historian Rose Scherini recounts in her chapter of “Una Storia Segreta.” Italian citizens were not allowed to fish on coastal waters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That affected Italians working on San Francisco’s Fisherman’s Wharf, like Ken Borelli’s uncle Girolamo Cantatore. He lived in San Francisco and was a crab fisherman embarking off the now-famous tourist area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When Cantatore lost his vessel and his ability to fish during the war, he made a wooden replica of the boat, and his nephew, Borelli, still had it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11969451\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11969451\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Borelli.jpg\" alt=\"A man looks at a model boat on a kitchen table.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Borelli.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Borelli-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Borelli-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Borelli-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Borelli-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ken Borelli and the model boat his uncle Girolamo Cantatore made after the crab fishing boat he used was seized by US forces. \u003ccite>(Pauline Bartolone/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“He was a very meticulous person,” Borelli says as he looks at the model boat, which is about two feet wide and is detailed with several deck levels and miniature lifeboats. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Borelli says he doesn’t know whether his uncle was ever compensated or saw his boat again (although according to Scherini, fishermen were given monthly compensation for their seized boats).\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But the boat replica shows his uncle had idle hands and “a yearning to go back to sea,” Borelli says.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Italians in prison camps\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Italian Americans didn’t just endure forced relocation, hundreds more were sent to prison camps too. As many as 300–400 Italians were incarcerated, DiStasi says. They were moved around from camp to camp around the country until they ultimately wound up in Fort Missoula, Montana. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“A lot of people mistakenly assume that Japanese Americans were the only ones affected by national security fears,” says UC Santa Cruz historian Alice Yang, adding that Italians and Germans also had their civil liberties infringed upon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People were imprisoned for being journalists at Italian radio stations and newspapers, teaching the Italian language or simply being veterans of World War I. These activities were seen as promoting Italian pride, Yang says, and in the wartime era, that was considered subversive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“A lot of the assumptions about whether someone might be a security threat were based on prejudicial views of ethnicity,” Yang says. “Having ethnic pride, if your pride was associated with an axis power, could land you on one of these lists.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To be clear, DiStasi says a good portion of Italian immigrants in the U.S. at the time \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">were\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> supporters of Benito Mussolini, the Nazi-allied fascist leader of Italy. They may not have been in favor of what he did, DiStasi says, but they liked that he was creating a new image for Italy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“They felt that he had finally put Italy on the map and gained some respect for Italy and throughout the world,” DiStasi says. “But that didn’t mean that they were going to engage in any kind of anti-American activities.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Being “high profile” didn’t exempt Italian citizens from wartime security measures. New York-based opera singer \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.italianhistorical.org/internment.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ezio Pinza\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> was incarcerated without charge for three months, according to Yang. And baseball Hall of Famer Joe DiMaggio’s mother, who lived in San Francisco, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/proclamation-2527-internment-italian-americans\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">was arrested\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>‘You have met the test’\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Then, in October 1942, quite sharply, the American government changed its tune about Italians. \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/ag/legacy/2011/09/16/10-12-1942.pdf\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Attorney General Francis Biddle gave a speech at Carnegie Hall in New York City\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">,\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> applauding the high number of Italian Americans currently serving in the U.S. military.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“Into the war against the Axis, they have sent their own sons,” Biddle proclaimed. “These Americans of Italian ancestry will help Italy again to become a free nation.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">By the end of the month Biddle says, the restrictions on Italian citizens would end. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“I say tonight: You have met the test. Your loyalty to the democracy which has given you this chance, you have proved and proved well. Make the most of it. See to it that all Italians remain loyal.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Italians who were imprisoned stayed in camps until 1943, but the relocated Italian Americans in California, like Al Bruzzone and Laura Gularte, got to go home. In total, they’d endured five months of a relocation order and about eight months of curfews and travel restrictions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“Somebody finally realized they made a mistake,” Bruzzone says, pointing out the irony of Italian citizens in California being forced to move away from their homes while their children were being drafted to fight in the war. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Laura Gularte, who now lives in Salinas, says it was hard for her dad to restart his Brussels sprouts farm after restrictions were lifted, so he went to work for others in the agricultural industry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She says her parents didn’t discuss their hardships with her, but she knows it was difficult for her father. At the same time, she says, “We were much luckier than the Japanese, who were encamped and lost everything.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ferrante, of Pittsburg, says many elders in the Italian American community didn’t pass these stories down, and that’s why second and third-generation families don’t know much about this history. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“There’s a stigma attached to it,” explained Ferrante, whose great-grandmother was relocated during World War II. The sentiment among them was, “‘We’re tax-paying citizens, we’re productive in our community, we work here, so what happened, what did we do wrong?’” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But Historian Alice Yang says there are important reasons to remember this history. For the government: Not to use ethnicity to determine who is dangerous and not to let wartime fears subvert civil rights. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now that she knows more about what her great-grandfather went through, our question-asker, Becca Gularte, says, “It makes you realize … it’s a hard thing to be an immigrant.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story has been updated to reflect the fact that war time restrictions on Italians were issued through more than one government proclamation, not just Executive Order 9066.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Around the holidays, family stories sometimes surface at the dinner table. Remember Grandma Joyce? She rode a motorcycle. Or Great Gran-Daddy Willie? He scrimped and saved long after the Depression was over.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Then there are tales like Becca Gularte recently heard from her grandma … about how her family was forced from their California home during World War 2. She hadn’t heard that one before. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Becca Gularte:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It was, it was sort of with that, wait, why did you have to move across town kind of thing? And then she said, Oh, it was because we were Italians. And then we kept prompting her with questions to say, What do you mean It was because you were Italians?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> In the early 1940s, as more than 100,000 Japanese Americans were being sent to incarceration camps, other ethnic groups were also being targeted. Italian citizens living in California — some 10,000 of them — were forced to relocate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Becca Gularte: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We had all heard so much about Japanese internment growing up and and just really that being sort of the story, especially in California. And I think we were all just so surprised that this had happened to this whole other population of people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Becca and her husband wanted to know more, so they wrote to Bay Curious to find out how this bit of family history fits into California textbooks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Becca Gularte:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> What types of restrictions like this were placed on Italian Americans during World War Two and why don’t more people know about it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Today on Bay Curious, we’re doing a deep dive into what Italians experienced in California during World War II and how it was different here from the rest of the country. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Producer Pauline Bartolone picks up the story from here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> To start investigating this question about how Italians were treated in California during World War two, we went straight to the source. Grandma… Our question-asker Becca Gularte’s grandma that is. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Gularte:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> My name is Laura Neri Gularte. I’m 90 years old. I was born and grew up in Santa Cruz, California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Laura Gularte now lives in Salinas. It was her father, Quinto Neri, who came to California in 1911 from Tuscany in Northern Italy. He was one of millions of Italians who came to the U.S. for a better life. Many stayed in urban centers like New York City, but others ventured farther to California, becoming fishermen, working in agriculture and the wine industry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Gularte:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> He came at age 17 because they were starving. It was a large family. And he knew some people in San Francisco who sponsored him. And so he went to work in Half Moon Bay.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Laura’s dad farmed Brussels sprouts and built a life for himself. He bought some land and a house. But then … the second World War hit and Italy declared war on the United States. Suddenly, Laura’s dad went from starting to achieve a middle-class life to being labeled ‘enemy alien.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Archival audio of President Franklin Roosevelt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This war is a new kind of war. It is different from all other wars of the past…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The President of the United States at the time, Franklin Roosevelt gave military commanders sweeping rights to protect the homeland after the 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor. That’s what led to the mass incarceration of Japanese Americans. But since Italy and Germany had also declared war on the US, new restrictions applied to their citizens living here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Archival audio of President Franklin Roosevelt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We shall give up conveniences and modify the routine of our lives if our country asks us to do so. We will do it cheerfully.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Italian citizens had to register as enemy aliens, and many were subject to an 8 p.m. curfew. They couldn’t travel more than 5 miles away from home. People’s houses were searched for so-called contraband, things like cameras and radios. People who violated the new rules could be arrested.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Archival audio of President Franklin Roosevelt: …\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">remembering that the common enemy seeks to destroy every home and every freedom in every part of our land.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Italians on the West Coast were hit hardest by the new restrictions… The military forced Italian citizens, mostly living on the Pacific coastline, to find new homes. Defense commanders wanted to \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">protect the Western U.S. from an enemy invasion so they\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> created ‘prohibited zones’ where enemy aliens could not live or work… It included a sliver of land along the Pacific Ocean and some inland areas around military bases.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Laura’s father had to relocate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Gularte\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: It had a big impact on my father because he was farming rented land that was in the restricted area. So he had to give up his farming. The fact that…he felt that he would not do anything against the United States and still had to be evacuated was hard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Laura’s family found a new place to rent, ironically, on the other side of town that was not within the prohibited zone. Her mom was born in Argentina, so she was able to travel freely, but her dad was stuck at home. Laura was only seven years old at the time, so she didn’t understand much about the stresses her parents were feeling.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Gularte:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Parents did not discuss a lot of things with their children. I know they were upset because they had to leave their home. But they didn’t talk about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lawrence DiStasi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> They thought that Mussolini’s Navy might attack the West Coast. Of course, Mussolini didn’t have much of a Navy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Author Lawrence DiStasi helped write a book on Italian Americans during World War 2. He says the West Coast General, John DeWitt, used his military powers in a much more draconian way than generals in other parts of the nation. It was DeWitt who commanded the incarceration of tens of thousands of Japanese Americans and the relocation of Italians on the West Coast. On the east coast Italians did have travel restrictions, but they weren’t subject to curfew or mass relocation, says DiStasi. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lawrence DiStasi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The paranoia exhibited by the West Coast General, General John DeWitt…he was terrified that under his watch, the West Coast was going to be invaded. It never was, of course. It was partly hysteria, partly overkill.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Because of DeWitt’s relocation orders, Italians all around the Bay Area were in limbo — including thousands in the city of Alameda and Pittsburg. To those who had to move, the dividing line between what was restricted or not seemed pretty arbitrary. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Al Bruzzone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you lived west of San Pablo Avenue, you had the move. If you lived east of San Pablo Avenue, you didn’t have to worry about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Al Bruzzone grew up in Richmond on a 40-acre lettuce farm. He’s 92 now but still remembers being 11 years old when the relocation orders came. It split his family up — he and his two younger siblings moved with his parents to Oakland. But his siblings, who were old enough to live by themselves and American-born, stayed in Richmond and worked the farm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Al Bruzzone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">On weekends, my brother Jim and I, we would go back. My brothers would pick us up, and we’d go back to where I was growing up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Other Italians didn’t have the money to rent homes nearby after being forced to relocate. Many moved in with friends or lived in substandard migrant housing. Bruzzone thought the whole ordeal was a big government mistake. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Al Bruzzone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Most of the people came to this country because they were poor in Europe and they had a chance to accomplish something here. /// And they would never, never, never go fight against the country because they were doing so well here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Italians who worked on the coast also suffered.. Eighty percent of California’s fishermen were Italian… and in 1942, their boats were seized by the coast guard. They were not allowed to fish on coastal waters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sound of papers rustling\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That is a story that Ken Borelli knows personally. It happened to his uncle, Girolamo Cantatore. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ken Borelli:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We called him Uncle Jim, but his name was Girolamo. And he lived in San Francisco and was a crab fisherman. And they would fish out of Fisherman’s Wharf and go all up and down northern California. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After losing access to his vessel and the water during the war, Borelli’s uncle made a wooden replica of the boat. And Borelli still has it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ken Borelli:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It’s called the Teresa. You can see this back here… he wrote that….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He shows me the 2-foot-long model boat, it’s super detailed, there are even lifeboats. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ken Borelli:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> He was a very meticulous person.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Borelli wishes he could have asked his uncle how he felt back then. His family never told him the details about whether his uncle was compensated or saw the boat again. But Borelli says the boat replica shows his uncle had idle hands and a mind that needed to be occupied. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ken Borelli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">it was a yearning, as a yearning to go back to sea. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Italian Americans didn’t just endure forced relocation and lose property, hundreds more were sent to prison camps too. There, some slept in makeshift shelters like tents and were held with Japanese and German detainees, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Yang: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A lot of people mistakenly assume that Japanese Americans were the only ones affected by national security fears.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">UC Santa Cruz historian Alice Yang says Italians and Germans living in the US also had their civil liberties infringed upon. People were imprisoned for being Italian journalists, teaching the Italian language or simply being veterans of World War 1.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Yang\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: A lot of the assumptions about, you know, whether someone might be a security threat were based on prejudicial views of ethnicity…People who were part of organizations that were seen as promoting Italian pride. So in the pre-war period, that wasn’t considered dangerous or subversive, but in the wartime era. Right. Having ethnic pride, if your pride was associated with an axis power could land you on one of these lists. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To be clear, DiStasi says a good portion of Italian immigrants in the US at the time were supporters of Benito Mussolini, the Nazi-allied fascist leader of Italy. They may not have been in favor of what he did, but they liked that he was creating a new image for Italy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lawrence DiStasi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> They felt that he had finally put Italy on the map and gained some respect for Italy and throughout the world….But that didn’t mean that they were going to engage in any kind of anti-American activities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">music of Ezio Pinza\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">High-profile Italian immigrants were prey to the wartime security measures. New York-based opera singer Ezio Pinza was incarcerated without charge for 3 months. Baseball Hall of Famer Joe DiMaggio’s mother, who lived in San Francisco, was arrested. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Imprisoned Italians were moved from camp to camp around the country, many winding up in Fort Missoula Montana. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Then, quite sharply, the American government changed its tune about Italians. In October 1942, Attorney General Francis Biddle gave a speech touting the contributions of Italians in the United States Army. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice actor for Attorney General Francis Biddle:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Into the war against the Axis they have sent their own sons. These Americans of Italian ancestry will help Italy again to become a free nation. In each division of the United States Army; nearly five hundred soldiers, on the average, are the sons of Italian immigrants to America.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">By the end of the month, the restrictions on Italian citizens would end. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice actor for Attorney General Francis Biddle:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> To those who are affected by this change, ‘I say tonight:’You have met the test. Your loyalty to the democracy which has given you this chance, you have proved and proved well. Make the most of it. See to it that \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">all\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Italians remain loyal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Italians who were already in U.S. prisons stayed in camps for another year, but the relocated families in California, like Al Bruzzone and Laura Gularte — they got to go home. In total, they’d endured five months of a relocation order and about 8 months of curfews and travel restrictions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Al Bruzzone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Somebody finally realized they made a mistake and they sent everybody home because … the parents had to move away and they were drafting all their children. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Laura Gularte says her dad lost his Brussels sprout farm near Santa Cruz. And it was hard to start all over again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Gularte:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> After they were able to go home, he never did go back to the farm. and he went to work for others in the agricultural industry…As I look back. I think that we were much luckier than the Japanese. Who were encamped and lost everything. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Many Italian immigrants in California were like Laura Gularte’s parents… They didn’t feel a need to talk about hardships imposed on them to their kids or grandkids. But Historian Alice Yang says there are important things to learn from this history. For one, not to judge whether someone’s dangerous based on their ethnicity.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Yang: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And that especially when people are afraid. It is very easy for them to have irrational fears of entire groups based on race, religion, ethnicity.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Americans let wartime fears subvert civil rights during World War II, Yang says. And that’s a lesson to learn from — and never repeat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"excerpt": "During World War II, roughly 10,000 Italian citizens living in California were forced to leave their homes. It was one of many war time security measures meant to protect the West Coast from an enemy invasion that never came. ",
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"title": "How Bay Area Italians Were Treated as 'Enemy Aliens' During WWII | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">View the full episode transcript\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class=\"utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__dropcapShortcode__dropcap\"> D\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>uring a casual Christmas celebration with her 90-year-old grandmother last year, Becca Gularte, a self-proclaimed history buff and third-generation Californian, was rocked by a family story she had never heard before. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 1942, her grandma Laura Gularte, then an elementary school kid in Santa Cruz, was forced to leave her coastal home because her dad was an Italian citizen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Becca was taken aback. She peppered Laura with questions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">‘Why did you have to move across town? What do you mean it was because you were Italians?’” Becca remembers. “We had all heard so much about Japanese internment growing up. We were all just so surprised that this had happened to this whole other population.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Becca’s husband, James King, asked Bay Curious to investigate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And as we found out, Becca’s great-grandfather was one of roughly 10,000 Italian citizens living in California who were forced to leave their homes during World War II. It was just one of many government measures meant to protect the West Coast from an enemy invasion that never came. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Wartime security\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Within months of the attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941, as more than 100,000 Japanese Americans were being sent to incarceration camps, other ethnic groups also became the target of new wartime security measures. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Italian citizens living near California’s coastline and military sites — some 10,000 of them — were forced to leave their homes and find somewhere else to live.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Laura Gularte’s father, Quinto Neri, was one of them. Neri left Tuscany in Northern Italy in 1911, eventually settling in Santa Cruz, California. He bought land on the coast and became a Brussels sprout farmer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Laura was just 7 years old when her family had to move from their coastal home in Santa Cruz to just across town, which was outside of an area prohibited by the U.S. military. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“It had a big impact on my father because he was farming rented land that was in the restricted area. So he had to give up his farming,” Laura Gularte remembers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11969477\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11969477\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Gulartes_cropped.jpg\" alt=\"An elderly woman poses with six adult grandchildren at her 90th birthday party. \" width=\"1920\" height=\"1231\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Gulartes_cropped.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Gulartes_cropped-800x513.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Gulartes_cropped-1020x654.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Gulartes_cropped-160x103.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Gulartes_cropped-1536x985.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Laura Gularte, middle, at her 90th birthday party with all of her grandchildren. Bay Curious question-asker Becca Gularte is on the far left. \u003ccite>(Courtesy photo)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After Italy and Germany declared war on the United States, President Franklin Roosevelt gave military commanders and other officials sweeping rights to protect the homeland. These new powers led to the mass incarceration of Japanese Americans as well as a slew of new rules on Italian and German citizens living in the U.S.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This war is a new kind of war,” Roosevelt says in a February 1942 speech. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We shall give up conveniences and modify the routine of our lives if our country asks us to do so. We will do it cheerfully.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Italian citizens had to register as enemy aliens, and many were subject to an 8 p.m. curfew. They couldn’t travel more than 5 miles away from home. People’s houses were searched for “contraband,” including cameras and radios. So-called enemy aliens could be arrested if they violated the new rules.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But the new security measures were applied differently across the United States, and General John DeWitt, who oversaw security for the West Coast, was much more draconian than his counterparts elsewhere. On the East Coast, for example, Italian citizens had travel restrictions, but they weren’t subject to curfew or the mass relocation ordered by General DeWitt, historians say.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[DeWitt] was terrified that under his watch, the West Coast was going to be invaded,” says Lawrence DiStasi, author and editor of \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.heydaybooks.com/catalog/una-storia-segreta-the-secret-history-of-italian-american-evacuation-and-internment-during-world-war-ii/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cem>Una Storia Segreta: The Secret History of Italian American Evacuation and Internment during World War II\u003c/em>\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">DiStasi says “paranoia” led General DeWitt to evict Italians from large swaths of the Pacific coast to avoid an enemy invasion. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“It was partly hysteria, partly overkill, I think.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Bay Area Italians in limbo\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Millions of Italians came to the U.S. for a better life before World War II, many landing in urban centers like New York City. But others ventured to California, becoming fishermen, farmworkers and helping to grow the wine industry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Italians all around the San Francisco Bay Area were living in the newly declared prohibited zones, including thousands in the cities of Alameda, Richmond and Pittsburg. At least 1,500 Italians were relocated out of Pittsburg because of their proximity to a military site, says Vince Ferrante, president of the Pittsburg Italian American Club and historian for the Pittsburg Historical Society. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“Some families lost their businesses, lost their livelihoods,” he says. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To those who had to move, like Al Bruzzone, 92, in Richmond, the dividing line between what was restricted or not seemed pretty arbitrary. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11969474\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11969474\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Bruzzone.jpg\" alt=\"An elderly man sitting outside. \" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Bruzzone.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Bruzzone-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Bruzzone-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Bruzzone-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Bruzzone-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Al Bruzzone, 92, grew up in the East Bay city of Richmond and still lives there. When his parents were forced to relocate during World War II, he temporarily stayed in an Oakland apartment with his parents. \u003ccite>(Pauline Bartolone/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“If you lived west of San Pablo Avenue, you had the move. If you lived east of San Pablo Avenue, you didn’t have to worry about it,” he says.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bruzzone grew up on his family’s 40-acre lettuce farm in Richmond. He still remembers being 11 years old when the relocation orders came. It split his family up — he and his two younger siblings moved with his parents to a rented apartment in Oakland. But his siblings who were old enough to live by themselves, and American-born, stayed in Richmond and worked the farm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“On weekends, my brother Jim and I, we would go back. My brothers would pick us up, and we’d go back to where I was growing up,” remembers Bruzzone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Other Italians who didn’t have the money to rent homes when they were relocated moved in with friends or lived in substandard migrant housing. Bruzzone thought the whole ordeal was a big government mistake. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“Most of the people came to this country because they were poor in Europe and they had a chance to accomplish something here,” he says. “They would never, never, never go fight against the country because they were doing so well here.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Italian fisherman\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">At the onset of the war, 80% of California’s fishermen were Italian. In 1942, their boats were seized by the U.S. Coast Guard, as the late historian Rose Scherini recounts in her chapter of “Una Storia Segreta.” Italian citizens were not allowed to fish on coastal waters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That affected Italians working on San Francisco’s Fisherman’s Wharf, like Ken Borelli’s uncle Girolamo Cantatore. He lived in San Francisco and was a crab fisherman embarking off the now-famous tourist area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When Cantatore lost his vessel and his ability to fish during the war, he made a wooden replica of the boat, and his nephew, Borelli, still had it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11969451\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11969451\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Borelli.jpg\" alt=\"A man looks at a model boat on a kitchen table.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Borelli.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Borelli-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Borelli-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Borelli-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/Borelli-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ken Borelli and the model boat his uncle Girolamo Cantatore made after the crab fishing boat he used was seized by US forces. \u003ccite>(Pauline Bartolone/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“He was a very meticulous person,” Borelli says as he looks at the model boat, which is about two feet wide and is detailed with several deck levels and miniature lifeboats. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Borelli says he doesn’t know whether his uncle was ever compensated or saw his boat again (although according to Scherini, fishermen were given monthly compensation for their seized boats).\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But the boat replica shows his uncle had idle hands and “a yearning to go back to sea,” Borelli says.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Italians in prison camps\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Italian Americans didn’t just endure forced relocation, hundreds more were sent to prison camps too. As many as 300–400 Italians were incarcerated, DiStasi says. They were moved around from camp to camp around the country until they ultimately wound up in Fort Missoula, Montana. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“A lot of people mistakenly assume that Japanese Americans were the only ones affected by national security fears,” says UC Santa Cruz historian Alice Yang, adding that Italians and Germans also had their civil liberties infringed upon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People were imprisoned for being journalists at Italian radio stations and newspapers, teaching the Italian language or simply being veterans of World War I. These activities were seen as promoting Italian pride, Yang says, and in the wartime era, that was considered subversive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“A lot of the assumptions about whether someone might be a security threat were based on prejudicial views of ethnicity,” Yang says. “Having ethnic pride, if your pride was associated with an axis power, could land you on one of these lists.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To be clear, DiStasi says a good portion of Italian immigrants in the U.S. at the time \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">were\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> supporters of Benito Mussolini, the Nazi-allied fascist leader of Italy. They may not have been in favor of what he did, DiStasi says, but they liked that he was creating a new image for Italy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“They felt that he had finally put Italy on the map and gained some respect for Italy and throughout the world,” DiStasi says. “But that didn’t mean that they were going to engage in any kind of anti-American activities.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Being “high profile” didn’t exempt Italian citizens from wartime security measures. New York-based opera singer \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.italianhistorical.org/internment.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ezio Pinza\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> was incarcerated without charge for three months, according to Yang. And baseball Hall of Famer Joe DiMaggio’s mother, who lived in San Francisco, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/proclamation-2527-internment-italian-americans\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">was arrested\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>‘You have met the test’\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Then, in October 1942, quite sharply, the American government changed its tune about Italians. \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/ag/legacy/2011/09/16/10-12-1942.pdf\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Attorney General Francis Biddle gave a speech at Carnegie Hall in New York City\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">,\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> applauding the high number of Italian Americans currently serving in the U.S. military.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“Into the war against the Axis, they have sent their own sons,” Biddle proclaimed. “These Americans of Italian ancestry will help Italy again to become a free nation.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">By the end of the month Biddle says, the restrictions on Italian citizens would end. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“I say tonight: You have met the test. Your loyalty to the democracy which has given you this chance, you have proved and proved well. Make the most of it. See to it that all Italians remain loyal.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Italians who were imprisoned stayed in camps until 1943, but the relocated Italian Americans in California, like Al Bruzzone and Laura Gularte, got to go home. In total, they’d endured five months of a relocation order and about eight months of curfews and travel restrictions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“Somebody finally realized they made a mistake,” Bruzzone says, pointing out the irony of Italian citizens in California being forced to move away from their homes while their children were being drafted to fight in the war. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Laura Gularte, who now lives in Salinas, says it was hard for her dad to restart his Brussels sprouts farm after restrictions were lifted, so he went to work for others in the agricultural industry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She says her parents didn’t discuss their hardships with her, but she knows it was difficult for her father. At the same time, she says, “We were much luckier than the Japanese, who were encamped and lost everything.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ferrante, of Pittsburg, says many elders in the Italian American community didn’t pass these stories down, and that’s why second and third-generation families don’t know much about this history. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“There’s a stigma attached to it,” explained Ferrante, whose great-grandmother was relocated during World War II. The sentiment among them was, “‘We’re tax-paying citizens, we’re productive in our community, we work here, so what happened, what did we do wrong?’” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But Historian Alice Yang says there are important reasons to remember this history. For the government: Not to use ethnicity to determine who is dangerous and not to let wartime fears subvert civil rights. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now that she knows more about what her great-grandfather went through, our question-asker, Becca Gularte, says, “It makes you realize … it’s a hard thing to be an immigrant.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story has been updated to reflect the fact that war time restrictions on Italians were issued through more than one government proclamation, not just Executive Order 9066.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Around the holidays, family stories sometimes surface at the dinner table. Remember Grandma Joyce? She rode a motorcycle. Or Great Gran-Daddy Willie? He scrimped and saved long after the Depression was over.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Then there are tales like Becca Gularte recently heard from her grandma … about how her family was forced from their California home during World War 2. She hadn’t heard that one before. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Becca Gularte:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It was, it was sort of with that, wait, why did you have to move across town kind of thing? And then she said, Oh, it was because we were Italians. And then we kept prompting her with questions to say, What do you mean It was because you were Italians?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> In the early 1940s, as more than 100,000 Japanese Americans were being sent to incarceration camps, other ethnic groups were also being targeted. Italian citizens living in California — some 10,000 of them — were forced to relocate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Becca Gularte: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We had all heard so much about Japanese internment growing up and and just really that being sort of the story, especially in California. And I think we were all just so surprised that this had happened to this whole other population of people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Becca and her husband wanted to know more, so they wrote to Bay Curious to find out how this bit of family history fits into California textbooks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Becca Gularte:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> What types of restrictions like this were placed on Italian Americans during World War Two and why don’t more people know about it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Today on Bay Curious, we’re doing a deep dive into what Italians experienced in California during World War II and how it was different here from the rest of the country. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Producer Pauline Bartolone picks up the story from here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> To start investigating this question about how Italians were treated in California during World War two, we went straight to the source. Grandma… Our question-asker Becca Gularte’s grandma that is. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Gularte:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> My name is Laura Neri Gularte. I’m 90 years old. I was born and grew up in Santa Cruz, California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Laura Gularte now lives in Salinas. It was her father, Quinto Neri, who came to California in 1911 from Tuscany in Northern Italy. He was one of millions of Italians who came to the U.S. for a better life. Many stayed in urban centers like New York City, but others ventured farther to California, becoming fishermen, working in agriculture and the wine industry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Gularte:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> He came at age 17 because they were starving. It was a large family. And he knew some people in San Francisco who sponsored him. And so he went to work in Half Moon Bay.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Laura’s dad farmed Brussels sprouts and built a life for himself. He bought some land and a house. But then … the second World War hit and Italy declared war on the United States. Suddenly, Laura’s dad went from starting to achieve a middle-class life to being labeled ‘enemy alien.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Archival audio of President Franklin Roosevelt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This war is a new kind of war. It is different from all other wars of the past…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The President of the United States at the time, Franklin Roosevelt gave military commanders sweeping rights to protect the homeland after the 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor. That’s what led to the mass incarceration of Japanese Americans. But since Italy and Germany had also declared war on the US, new restrictions applied to their citizens living here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Archival audio of President Franklin Roosevelt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We shall give up conveniences and modify the routine of our lives if our country asks us to do so. We will do it cheerfully.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Italian citizens had to register as enemy aliens, and many were subject to an 8 p.m. curfew. They couldn’t travel more than 5 miles away from home. People’s houses were searched for so-called contraband, things like cameras and radios. People who violated the new rules could be arrested.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Archival audio of President Franklin Roosevelt: …\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">remembering that the common enemy seeks to destroy every home and every freedom in every part of our land.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Italians on the West Coast were hit hardest by the new restrictions… The military forced Italian citizens, mostly living on the Pacific coastline, to find new homes. Defense commanders wanted to \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">protect the Western U.S. from an enemy invasion so they\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> created ‘prohibited zones’ where enemy aliens could not live or work… It included a sliver of land along the Pacific Ocean and some inland areas around military bases.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Laura’s father had to relocate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Gularte\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: It had a big impact on my father because he was farming rented land that was in the restricted area. So he had to give up his farming. The fact that…he felt that he would not do anything against the United States and still had to be evacuated was hard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Laura’s family found a new place to rent, ironically, on the other side of town that was not within the prohibited zone. Her mom was born in Argentina, so she was able to travel freely, but her dad was stuck at home. Laura was only seven years old at the time, so she didn’t understand much about the stresses her parents were feeling.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Gularte:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Parents did not discuss a lot of things with their children. I know they were upset because they had to leave their home. But they didn’t talk about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lawrence DiStasi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> They thought that Mussolini’s Navy might attack the West Coast. Of course, Mussolini didn’t have much of a Navy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Author Lawrence DiStasi helped write a book on Italian Americans during World War 2. He says the West Coast General, John DeWitt, used his military powers in a much more draconian way than generals in other parts of the nation. It was DeWitt who commanded the incarceration of tens of thousands of Japanese Americans and the relocation of Italians on the West Coast. On the east coast Italians did have travel restrictions, but they weren’t subject to curfew or mass relocation, says DiStasi. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lawrence DiStasi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The paranoia exhibited by the West Coast General, General John DeWitt…he was terrified that under his watch, the West Coast was going to be invaded. It never was, of course. It was partly hysteria, partly overkill.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Because of DeWitt’s relocation orders, Italians all around the Bay Area were in limbo — including thousands in the city of Alameda and Pittsburg. To those who had to move, the dividing line between what was restricted or not seemed pretty arbitrary. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Al Bruzzone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you lived west of San Pablo Avenue, you had the move. If you lived east of San Pablo Avenue, you didn’t have to worry about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Al Bruzzone grew up in Richmond on a 40-acre lettuce farm. He’s 92 now but still remembers being 11 years old when the relocation orders came. It split his family up — he and his two younger siblings moved with his parents to Oakland. But his siblings, who were old enough to live by themselves and American-born, stayed in Richmond and worked the farm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Al Bruzzone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">On weekends, my brother Jim and I, we would go back. My brothers would pick us up, and we’d go back to where I was growing up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Other Italians didn’t have the money to rent homes nearby after being forced to relocate. Many moved in with friends or lived in substandard migrant housing. Bruzzone thought the whole ordeal was a big government mistake. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Al Bruzzone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Most of the people came to this country because they were poor in Europe and they had a chance to accomplish something here. /// And they would never, never, never go fight against the country because they were doing so well here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Italians who worked on the coast also suffered.. Eighty percent of California’s fishermen were Italian… and in 1942, their boats were seized by the coast guard. They were not allowed to fish on coastal waters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sound of papers rustling\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That is a story that Ken Borelli knows personally. It happened to his uncle, Girolamo Cantatore. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ken Borelli:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We called him Uncle Jim, but his name was Girolamo. And he lived in San Francisco and was a crab fisherman. And they would fish out of Fisherman’s Wharf and go all up and down northern California. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After losing access to his vessel and the water during the war, Borelli’s uncle made a wooden replica of the boat. And Borelli still has it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ken Borelli:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It’s called the Teresa. You can see this back here… he wrote that….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He shows me the 2-foot-long model boat, it’s super detailed, there are even lifeboats. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ken Borelli:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> He was a very meticulous person.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Borelli wishes he could have asked his uncle how he felt back then. His family never told him the details about whether his uncle was compensated or saw the boat again. But Borelli says the boat replica shows his uncle had idle hands and a mind that needed to be occupied. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ken Borelli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">it was a yearning, as a yearning to go back to sea. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Italian Americans didn’t just endure forced relocation and lose property, hundreds more were sent to prison camps too. There, some slept in makeshift shelters like tents and were held with Japanese and German detainees, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Yang: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A lot of people mistakenly assume that Japanese Americans were the only ones affected by national security fears.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">UC Santa Cruz historian Alice Yang says Italians and Germans living in the US also had their civil liberties infringed upon. People were imprisoned for being Italian journalists, teaching the Italian language or simply being veterans of World War 1.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Yang\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: A lot of the assumptions about, you know, whether someone might be a security threat were based on prejudicial views of ethnicity…People who were part of organizations that were seen as promoting Italian pride. So in the pre-war period, that wasn’t considered dangerous or subversive, but in the wartime era. Right. Having ethnic pride, if your pride was associated with an axis power could land you on one of these lists. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To be clear, DiStasi says a good portion of Italian immigrants in the US at the time were supporters of Benito Mussolini, the Nazi-allied fascist leader of Italy. They may not have been in favor of what he did, but they liked that he was creating a new image for Italy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lawrence DiStasi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> They felt that he had finally put Italy on the map and gained some respect for Italy and throughout the world….But that didn’t mean that they were going to engage in any kind of anti-American activities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">music of Ezio Pinza\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">High-profile Italian immigrants were prey to the wartime security measures. New York-based opera singer Ezio Pinza was incarcerated without charge for 3 months. Baseball Hall of Famer Joe DiMaggio’s mother, who lived in San Francisco, was arrested. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Imprisoned Italians were moved from camp to camp around the country, many winding up in Fort Missoula Montana. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Then, quite sharply, the American government changed its tune about Italians. In October 1942, Attorney General Francis Biddle gave a speech touting the contributions of Italians in the United States Army. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice actor for Attorney General Francis Biddle:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Into the war against the Axis they have sent their own sons. These Americans of Italian ancestry will help Italy again to become a free nation. In each division of the United States Army; nearly five hundred soldiers, on the average, are the sons of Italian immigrants to America.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">By the end of the month, the restrictions on Italian citizens would end. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice actor for Attorney General Francis Biddle:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> To those who are affected by this change, ‘I say tonight:’You have met the test. Your loyalty to the democracy which has given you this chance, you have proved and proved well. Make the most of it. See to it that \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">all\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Italians remain loyal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Italians who were already in U.S. prisons stayed in camps for another year, but the relocated families in California, like Al Bruzzone and Laura Gularte — they got to go home. In total, they’d endured five months of a relocation order and about 8 months of curfews and travel restrictions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Al Bruzzone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Somebody finally realized they made a mistake and they sent everybody home because … the parents had to move away and they were drafting all their children. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Laura Gularte says her dad lost his Brussels sprout farm near Santa Cruz. And it was hard to start all over again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Gularte:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> After they were able to go home, he never did go back to the farm. and he went to work for others in the agricultural industry…As I look back. I think that we were much luckier than the Japanese. Who were encamped and lost everything. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Many Italian immigrants in California were like Laura Gularte’s parents… They didn’t feel a need to talk about hardships imposed on them to their kids or grandkids. But Historian Alice Yang says there are important things to learn from this history. For one, not to judge whether someone’s dangerous based on their ethnicity.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alice Yang: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And that especially when people are afraid. It is very easy for them to have irrational fears of entire groups based on race, religion, ethnicity.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Americans let wartime fears subvert civil rights during World War II, Yang says. And that’s a lesson to learn from — and never repeat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
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"title": "Political Breakdown",
"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
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"possible": {
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"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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"pri-the-world": {
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"title": "PRI's The World: Latest Edition",
"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-World-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
"radiolab": {
"id": "radiolab",
"title": "Radiolab",
"info": "A two-time Peabody Award-winner, Radiolab is an investigation told through sounds and stories, and centered around one big idea. In the Radiolab world, information sounds like music and science and culture collide. Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, the show is designed for listeners who demand skepticism, but appreciate wonder. WNYC Studios is the producer of other leading podcasts including Freakonomics Radio, Death, Sex & Money, On the Media and many more.",
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},
"reveal": {
"id": "reveal",
"title": "Reveal",
"info": "Created by The Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX, Reveal is public radios first one-hour weekly radio show and podcast dedicated to investigative reporting. Credible, fact based and without a partisan agenda, Reveal combines the power and artistry of driveway moment storytelling with data-rich reporting on critically important issues. The result is stories that inform and inspire, arming our listeners with information to right injustices, hold the powerful accountable and improve lives.Reveal is hosted by Al Letson and showcases the award-winning work of CIR and newsrooms large and small across the nation. In a radio and podcast market crowded with choices, Reveal focuses on important and often surprising stories that illuminate the world for our listeners.",
"airtime": "SAT 4pm-5pm",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/",
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},
"rightnowish": {
"id": "rightnowish",
"title": "Rightnowish",
"tagline": "Art is where you find it",
"info": "Rightnowish digs into life in the Bay Area right now… ish. Journalist Pendarvis Harshaw takes us to galleries painted on the sides of liquor stores in West Oakland. We'll dance in warehouses in the Bayview, make smoothies with kids in South Berkeley, and listen to classical music in a 1984 Cutlass Supreme in Richmond. Every week, Pen talks to movers and shakers about how the Bay Area shapes what they create, and how they shape the place we call home.",
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"order": 16
},
"link": "/podcasts/rightnowish",
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