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"slug": "beyond-the-ai-hype-machine",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When ChatGPT launched in 2022, it kicked off what some have called the “AI hype machine” — a frenzy of promotion and investment that has sent some tech companies’ valuations soaring to record heights. Meanwhile, computational linguist Emily M. Bender and AI researcher and sociologist Alex Hanna have proudly worn the titles of “AI hype busters,” critiquing the industry’s loftiest claims and pointing out the real-world harms behind this wave of excitement. What began as a satirical podcast is now a book, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://thecon.ai/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The AI Con\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How to Fight Big Tech’s Hype and Create the Future We Want\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. In this episode, Alex and Emily explain why the very term “AI” is misleading, how AI boosters and doomers are really flip sides of the same coin, and why we should question the AI inevitability narrative. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC5696998106\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bsky.app/profile/emilymbender.bsky.social\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emily Bender\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, professor of linguistics the University of Washington\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bsky.app/profile/alexhanna.bsky.social\">Alex Hanna\u003c/a>, director of research at the Distributed AI Research Institute\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading/listening: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://thecon.ai/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The AI Con: How to Fight Big Tech’s Hype and Create the Future We Want\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Emily Bender and Alex Hanna\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.dair-institute.org/maiht3k/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Mystery AI Hype Theater 3000 Podcast\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Emily M. Bender and Alex Hanna\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.techpolicy.press/ai-hurts-consumers-and-workers-and-isnt-intelligent/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“AI” Hurts Consumers and Workers — and Isn’t Intelligent\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Emily Bender and Alex Hanna, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tech Policy Press\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://lithub.com/on-the-very-real-dangers-of-the-artificial-intelligence-hype-machine/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the Very Real Dangers of the Artificial Intelligence Hype Machine: Emily M. Bender and Alex Hanna Explore AI History, the Cold War, and a Fatally Overhyped Idea \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Emily M. Bender, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">LitHub\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/sora-2-content-violation-guardrails-error/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People Are Crashing Out Over Sora 2’s New Guardrails\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Samantha Cole, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">404 Media\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://futurism.com/artificial-intelligence/sora-2-financial-problem\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sora 2 Has a Huge Financial Problem\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Victor Tangermann, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Futurism\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/05/20/1116327/ai-energy-usage-climate-footprint-big-tech/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We did the math on AI’s energy footprint. Here’s the story you haven’t heard.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — James O’Donnell and Casey Crownhart, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A few weeks ago, OpenAI launched an app, Sora. It’s a vertical video social platform, similar to TikTok, except all the videos are generated by the company’s AI image generator, Sora 2. Within days, the app was a copyright infringement nightmare. There were videos of SpongeBob cooking meth, unsanctioned Rick and Morty ads for crypto startups, and many, many videos of open AI CEO Sam Altman doing depraved things to copyrighted characters. Like the one where he brutally barbecues and carves up Pikachu. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[AI CEO Sam Altman] Pikachu on the grill here. It’s already got a beautiful char and it smells like somebody plugged in a chicken. Let’s give it a flip. I’m gonna carve it into some thick steaks. Look at that. Crust on the outside, pink and juicy in the middle. Cheers.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these 10 second videos require an immense amount of computing power, which is extremely costly to maintain. In a blog post, Sam Altman admitted that the company still needs to figure out how to make money off of Sora. He wrote, “People are generating much more than we expected per user, and a lot of videos are being generated for very small audiences.” Facing heat from copyright holders like Disney and Nintendo, Altman also announced extra guardrails for the app to curb infringement. Now, users are complaining that everything they try to generate using Sora 2 gets flagged as a violation of the copyrighted content policy. They’re already getting bored of the app. This whole cycle has been described as the AI hype machine. Big investments are made based on big promises of innovation, disruption, revolution. This hype fuels more investment, which, in turn, fuels the hype. The cycle continues when a new product launches. Meta, for example, launched its own AI social video app, called Vibes, last month too, which was quickly forgotten about when Sora launched. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI hype is effectively premised on fear of missing out. It is the fear that if you don’t get onto this new technology, you are going to be left behind. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Alex Hanna, a sociologist and the Director of Research at the Distributed AI Research Institute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you’re a corporate manager, you’re going to have your competitors just leave you in the dust. If you are a teacher, you are doing a disservice to your students by not preparing them for the job market of the future. If you were a student, you were going to miss out on all the skills and all your classmates are going to be outperforming you. And as a worker, you will be doing things the old way, the analog way, and everyone is going to be outpacing you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alex and her co-author, Emily M. Bender, recently published a book, The AI Con, How to Fight Big Tech’s Hype and Create the Future We Want. Emily runs the computational linguistics program at the University of Washington. This is a field of study that combines human language with machine learning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I often get asked the question, well aren’t you worried that students are going to get left behind? Etc. And my answer to that is often, where is everybody going? Like, this metaphor of left behind suggests that people are running off into some brilliant future. I just don’t see it, you know, setting aside the fact that the technology doesn’t do what it’s being sold to do, but that is overhyped and over promised. The idea that we’d be better off with instead of interacting with people at all stages, interacting with screens that that’s just not the future that I want. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, we’re talking about the AI hype machine, when it started, how it’s fed, and why a growing corner of critics say they see right through it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right, like we always do, we’re starting by opening a new tab. What is P-Doom? In their book, The AI Con, Alex and Emily talk about these two groups. There are the AI boosters, the people who are optimistic that AI will pave the way to our utopian future. Then there are the AI doomers: the people that catastrophize, and believe that AI progress will usher in an era of societal collapse and human extinction. It’s very Matrix. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from the film “The Matrix] The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But before we break this down further, let’s start by defining our terms. Here’s Emily. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Artificial intelligence does not refer to a coherent set of technologies, and it has throughout its history, since it was coined by John McCarthy in 1955, basically been used to sell this idea of some magic do-everything technology in order to get money. Initially, it was research funding and then DOD money and now a lot of it is venture capital money. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and the way that this has proliferated in the modern day is that so many things get called AI. So that could be automated decision-making systems used for determining whether someone gets social services. And so that gets looped in, and then we also get recommendation systems, things like the TikTok algorithm, the Instagram Reels algorithm, pick your short-form video. But then, it’s really manifest in these large language models and diffusion models that are looped into the category of generative AI.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You start this book from this one moment in 2023, when Chuck Schumer at the time, the Senate majority leader, held a series of forums around AI. Can you take us back to that moment and like set the scene for us? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, late 2023, Chuck Schumer is convening the eighth of total nine Senate Insight forums around AI, and he asks folks, this is very weird, he asks, “what is folks’ probability of doom?” And this is abbreviated as P(doom), and for this instance, it’s an audio platform, that is P, open parentheses, doom, closed parentheses. And he also asked, “what people’s pee hope is.” So this means what is your probability that there’s going to be some kind of a doom scenario, in which through, you know, hook or crook, some kind of thing called AI is going to outperform or outsmart humans and take over and lead to human extinction. And in the book, we start and we say, well, this is the wrong question. But also if you’re looking at harms that are happening in the here and now, there are many that exist, whether that be deep fake porn being made out of non-consensual adults and children, the use of automated decision-making and weapons targeting, especially in Gaza, and then we also talk about students having their exams effectively being judged by these automated tools. So talking about P(doom) in this register is asking the wrong question and focusing on the wrong things. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But oftentimes it looks like the doomers, the people with a high P(doom) value, the people who take that question seriously in the first place, um, and the boosters, the people who say this is gonna solve all our problems, are like the opposite ends of a spectrum. And that is how these people present themselves, it is how the media often presents what’s going on, and it is very misleading. I think that one of the points that we make is that doomerism is another kind of AI hype, because it’s saying, our system is very powerful. It’s so powerful, it’s going to kill us all, is a way of saying it’s very powerful, but also we make the point that the doomers and the boosters are two sides of the same coin. And it, I think, becomes very clear if you look at it this way, which is to say, the doomers say, “AI is a thing, it’s imminent, it’s inevitable, and it’s gonna kill us all.” And the boosters say, “AI’s a thing, it’s imminent, it’s inevitable, and it is gonna solve all of our problems.” And it’s pretty easy to see these are the same position with just a different twist at the end. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the funny thing about this boosterism, doomerism dichotomy is that these are many of the same people or they run in many of same circles. So, you know, there was this document that was put out called AI 2027, in which it ends with humanity dying and the kind of choose your own adventure. There’s only two endings here. The choose your own adventure and one of them, you know everyone dies. But the lead author of this works at OpenAI. And there’s many such cases of people who are working on quote unquote, “AI alignment”, who are in these industries. So, it’s again not as if they’re against the building of AI, or we should just say no, it’s actually a very narrow segment of people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You described this industry as the AI hype machine, the modern AI hype machine, what does it look like? I mean, who are the players? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, the players are many of the big tech players that we know. So Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Meta, but with some new entrants, OpenAI being the most significant one. Um, and along with OpenAI, a few offshoots, so Anthropic is kind of the most notable one. And then the company that’s creating the shovels for the gold rush, so that’s your Nvidia, and then your Taiwanese semiconductor manufacturing company, abbreviated as TSMC. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to say that we see AI hype not just originating from those big players, like that is a large source of it. Also we hear over and over and again about people working in various businesses being told by their higher ups that they have to try this new AI thing. And so there’s this sort of secondary promulgation of hype that comes from middle management and up that have been sold on the idea that this is going to, you know, really increase productivity. And, you know, on the one hand, it’s a very useful excuse for doing layoffs that they may have otherwise already wanted to do, but then on the other hand, some people seem to have really bought into the idea. So they tell the people working for them, you have to spend time figuring out how to make yourself more productive by using these so-called AI tools, because everyone’s telling me that that’s the way of the future. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, the obvious way people are, these players, are feeding into the AI hype machine is by extolling the virtues of AI, or, you know, kind of spreading this very doomerous sci-fi rhetoric. But what other strategies are being used to feed this machine? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So one important strategy is what I sometimes call citations to the future. So people will say, yeah, yeah. It’s got problems now, but it’s going to do all of these things. And I think it really is the only technology that we are expected to evaluate based on promises of what it will be doing, right? That car that I just bought only gets, you know, 35 miles to the gallon. But that’s OK, because the later one’s going to get 50. We don’t talk about it that way, except with the so-called AI technology.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, citations to the future is one big strategy and another one is anthropomorphizing language, talking about things that have happened as if the computer systems themselves did it of their own volition and autonomously instead of people having used the system to do it or done something in order to build the system. So it’ll be something like, AI needs lots and lots of data. Well, no, people who want to build the system that they’re calling AI are amassing lots and lots of data in order to build them, or AI is thirsty, it needs lots of water, or AI was able to identify, you know, something in a blurry image. It’s like — in no sense, right? \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People used XYZ tool in order do a thing, or in order to build these tools, they are using lots of of water and so on. So this anthropomorphizing language sort of shifts the people out of the frame and hides a bunch of accountability, and at the same time, makes the systems sound cooler than they are. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alex and Emily also pointed out that players in the AI industry push this adoption of AI into our everyday lives by really trying to humanize the product. We’re gonna dive into that in a new tab. First, a quick break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Time for a new tab! Are we really just meat machines?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s talk about the technology itself, like the way people talk about large language models as AI, um, ChatGPT, Claude, Grok. Many people understand that these models are basically predicting the words that most often go together. But can you break it down further? Like, what’s really going on under the hood there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, the first very important lesson is that when we say word, we’re actually talking about two things. We’re talking about the way the word is spelled and pronounced and what it is used to mean. And one thing that makes that hard to keep in mind is that as proficient speakers of the languages we speak, pretty much anytime we encounter the spelling or sound of a word, we are also encountering what the person using it is using it to talk about. And so we always experience the form and meaning together. But a language model, so that the core component of something like Gemini or Grok or Claude or ChatGPT is literally a system for modeling which bits of words go with which other bits of words in whatever the input collection of text was to create that model. And so what we have are models that are very good at putting literally like spellings of parts of words next to each other in a way that looks like something somebody might say. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emily and Alex have come up with a few phrases that illustrate what large language models really are, which also describe the limitations of this tech. We’ve got synthetic text extruding machine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The choice of the word extrude is very intentional because it’s a little gross. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Racist pile of linear algebra. Spicy autocomplete. And one phrase that really took off, stochastic parrot. Emily coined the phrase in a research paper she co-authored in 2020. Parrots can mimic human speech, but whether they can really comprehend it, that’s dubious. Stochastic comes from probability theory. It means randomly determined. So a stochastic parrot essentially mimics language in a random order and does so convincingly, but it doesn’t understand it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Starting with OpenAI’s GPT-2 and GPT3, they were using it to create synthetic text. And so one of the things we worried about in that paper is what happens if someone comes across synthetic text and doesn’t know that it was synthetic? What we didn’t realize at the time is that people would be happy to look at synthetic text while knowing that it’s synthetic. That is very surprising to me. And so the phrase stochastic parrots was this attempt to make vivid what’s going on, to help people understand why the output of a language model run to repeatedly answer the question, what’s a likely next word, is not the same thing as text produced by a person or group of people with something to communicate. And what’s happened, it’s been fascinating as a linguist to watch that phrase go out into the world, so for the first little while, it was people referring to the paper, and then it sort of became people talking about, um, that claim that large language models are not understanding, they’re just repeatedly predicting a likely next word. And then it got picked up or interpreted as an insult, which is surprising to me because in order for it to be an insult, the thing that it’s being applied to would have to the kind of thing that could be insulted. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then in 2022, Sam Altman tweeted, I am a stochastic parrot and so are you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think what happens when Sam Altman picks it up and tweets that is that it is, on the one hand, sort of an attempt to reclaim what is understood as an insult or slur by people in that mindset, but also, and very importantly, it is about minimizing what it is to be human, so that he can claim that the system that he’s built is as good as a person.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emily and Alex say this concept of comparing humans to, essentially, flesh machines is a classic move in the AI hype machine playbook. It’s reducing humanity and what it means to be human to programming, like Eliza in the 60s. Eliza was an early natural language processing program designed to mimic a therapist. Think of it as a great, great, great, grand chatbot of ChatGPT. A lot of people, from academics to government leaders to tech industry giants, bought into the Eliza hype. And that freaked out Eliza’s own creator, Joseph Weizenbaum. In a book he published in the 70s, Weizenbaum warned that machines would never be able to make the same decisions that humans make because they don’t have human empathy. His criticism of AI caused a stir in the research community. And decades later, AI boosters are still making that same claim. That humans and machines aren’t that different. But what does this devaluing of humanity really mean for us? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, it means a lot of things. It really seems to emphasize that there is, kind of, aspects of human behavior that can just be reduced to our observable outputs, right? Humans are just things that output language or output actions, when that’s not true. Humans have a much more vivid internal life. Um, we think about others. Uh, we think about, kind of, co-presence, but it’s more about saying how we’re comparing ourselves to machines that are programmed by people and those people in those institutions have particular types of incentives to make machines that behave as such. So that’s the kind of implications that it has and it also has the implications of other kinds of moves into humanism, dehumanization and what that does and how we treat people and with regards to dignity and propriety of rights. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you also give concrete examples of where we see this kind of, uh, devaluing of humans? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think if we say that humans can be reduced to their outputs, that that leads to lots of problems. And one is we end up saying, you know, the form of, or the words that teachers and students say in the classroom is the learning situation. And so we can replace the teacher with a system for outputting words and then those students will get as much and maybe it’ll be personalized and it’ll better. And that is dehumanizing to teachers clearly and also to students because it removes, you know, everything that is about the student and teacher’s internal life and about their relationship and about their community from the situation. But I think it’s also really important in terms of the workforce more generally, that basically if we say, well, humans like large language models are systems for outputting words, then it’s a very small step to basically saying the whole value of this person is how many words they can output and doing a very, very dehumanizing work environment to people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We also see this in other domains like the Amazon work floor and the ways that these mini robots flit from place to place and the so-called quote unquote pickers. People on Amazon work warehouses have to pick things and then deliver them. So there’s a lot of implications for that and I think also in seeing the humanity in other folks and how we treat other folks. You know, if they’re merely meat machines, then what does it say about how we view them with respect to, kind of, personal rights and human rights and what kind of rights they should be afforded? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This idea of human beings just being walking meat machines is chilling. It definitely creeped me out. What are the other real world consequences of this thinking? Let’s open a new tab. Who’s really harmed by AI hype? Alex and Emily have said that their goal with writing the AI con is to reduce the harm caused by AI hype. Automation, for example, doesn’t just replace jobs. Healthcare providers are increasingly relying on AI products for medical triage to decide which patients to see first. Free legal representation, a guaranteed right in criminal cases, can be replaced by a lawyer using a chat bot. All of this potentially lowers the quality of these services. And introduces bias into these systems. Artists and other creatives, meanwhile, are struggling to make ends meet as AI generators, sometimes trained on their own work, are used as a cheaper, faster alternative. And then there’s how large language models are disrupting our whole information ecosystem. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a metaphor we use in the book, the idea that information is being output from these models and results in information ecosystem spills, like toxic spills that really can’t be cleaned up. There’s not really a reliable way to detect synthetic text. And so you’re having to deal with and navigate and try to understand whether something on the internet is actually reflective of truth claims that are being made and perhaps researched more deeply by human individuals. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve written that the strongest critiques against AI boosterism come from black, brown, poor, queer, and disabled scholars and activists. Can you talk about some examples of these critiques and why these groups specifically are so uniquely positioned to make them? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we wrote about that in the register of thinking about the ways in which systems, in here, I want to say data-driven systems, not just large language models, but even different systems just don’t work for black, brown communities, queer, and trans people, and then people like refugees and people on the move. The kind of pioneering work of Drs. Temnit Gebru and Joy Buolamwini in their paper Gender Shades talks about facial analysis systems, specifically the way that facial analysis systems do very poorly on darker-skinned women and that there’s a huge delta between darker-skinned women and lighter-skinned men. Sasha Costanza-Chock talks about how tools like TSA scanners do very poorly on trans people. Typically flagging genitals as anomalies or chest areas as anomalities, and then the kind of disparities of how systems talk about women. So there’s been a few papers talking about the ways in which different tools, in this case a word embedding space, makes associations between people and occupation. So, man is to doctor, women is to… typically, the completion is nurse, so it makes presuppositions of this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of this stuff effectively happens in large-language models [laughter] and happens in image generation models as well. There’s some great research by the Bloomberg data team that shows that if you input something like a nurse, uh, typically or a housekeeper, it outputs a kind of a phenotypically looking darker-skinned woman. If you type in CEO, white man. And so those kinds of elements are the bias element of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ruha Benjamin sums it up really nicely in this beautiful essay called The New Artificial Intelligentsia that appeared in the LA Review of Books in 2024. And she’s talking about these ideas of transhumanism and merging with the machines. She says this zealous desire to transcend humanity ignores the fact that we have not all had the chance to be fully human. My interpretation of what she’s saying is that the people that society does not accord full humanity to have a very different experience of technology, both in the ways, as Alex is saying, it’s being used on them, in the ways that doesn’t work well for them and just in the way that it intrudes on their life. And so people who have the privilege of not experiencing any of that tend to be less sensitized to what’s going on and to have a less informed perspective. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this less-informed perspective encourages AI boosters, who continue to fuel the hype machine. This means investing in and launching new products at a breakneck pace, often overlooking the real-world impact. The MIT Technology Review recently reported that generating one 5-second AI video uses about 3.4 million joules, the equivalent of running a microwave for over an hour. At scale this amount of energy consumption is devastating for the environment. And running all of this comes at a steep price for AI companies, too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like we talked about earlier, OpenAI’s Sora app is proving to be wildly expensive, with more users generating videos than actually watching them. And after the copyright fiasco and subsequent new guardrails, it seems like some initial adopters are already moving on. Can the hype machine sustain this kind of frenzied investment with such limited return? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we’re opening one last tab. Is the height machine breaking? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you think the AI hype bubble is going to burst? I mean, like, are there economic critiques? You’ve heard the social ones, but is there anything pointing to the AI height bubble possibly at least deflating? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, well, the problem is that there’s so much capital expenditure going into building things like data centers, and they’re going into these massive data center build out where, you know, the kind of projections and how much OpenAI, Microsoft, Google, Amazon, and Meta are spending on this all is astronomical. I mean, hundreds of billions of dollars, just some of the largest technological infrastructure projects that we’ve ever seen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the same time, OpenAI again, the company that has the most queries to Chat GPT, people using most of its products, is making revenue on the order of maybe $10 billion a year. So it’s just orders of magnitude less. And the kind of metaphor that’s being used as well, we have to build the railroads first, and then once the rail roads get going, we can put rail cars in them. But that metaphor doesn’t work at all. People are already using the product. And, you know, companies are already saying, we’re not getting a lot of value out of this. You know, there was an, something that was coming out of MIT, which said 95% of companies just haven’t really gained value from quote unquote AI. So what’s happening? This is very bubble shaped, you now, and I don’t know how the story ends, but it’s very alarming that these four to seven companies are propping up the US and world economy right now, so what happens when the bubble deflates or bursts, it’s not going to be good. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like you said, um, you finished this book in September 2024. The AI industry has only grown since then. What have you learned about the state of the AI hype machine from the reception to your book? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would say what I’ve learned the most about is about the resilience of people and the importance of connection and community. So the antidote to the hype is a variety of things, one is ridicule as praxis, as we say in the book, and also solidarity and labor movements, but also just sort of connection. And one form of that connection is that there’s a lot of people who are, who feel isolated in a workplace or a social circle where everyone around them seems just completely gaga for this technology and they’re the odd one out. And so one of the joys of both our podcasts and this book has been to find those people and be found by those people who say, oh, so glad I’m not the only one. And then they can form community with other people who have the same reaction and I think that that is super important. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the things we grapple a lot just like within Close All Tabs is where to draw the line with AI use, you know. And again, that’s complicated. What is AI? For example, we don’t use ChatGPT, but we use an AI transcription tool for our interviews. Are there conditions under which using large language models, AI tools, are reasonable or justified, appropriate? And then what’s your message to the average listener who maybe uses ChatGPT in their daily but they’re not necessarily AI boosters and not necessarily AI doomers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Um, so to the first question, I would say I never call it an AI transcription tool. I would say automatic transcription, right? And that is a use case where, you know, you want to look at the labor conditions of the people who produced it, where the training data come from. And it’s also a use case where you are well positioned to check the output and see if it’s working well for you, right. You’ve got something that has been recorded, you’ve got an automatically produced transcript, you’re presumably going through and correcting it. And if it is wrong all the time, or if you have one that is particularly bad for non-Anglo names, for example, you might start looking for something that’s better. So that is a case of automation that I think can be okay. You still want to look into who produced it. Are there privacy implications? Can I use this tool without uploading my data to somebody else and so on? But there’s reasonable uses and reasonable ways to produce automatic transcription. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we’re talking about chat bots of the form of ChatGPT, I don’t see reasonable use cases there. And partially we know that the labor and environmental costs are extraordinarily high, that this is not produced ethically. But even setting that aside, every time you turn to ChatGPT for information, you’re cutting yourself off from important sense-making. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the examples I like to use, if you think about an old fashioned search engine that gave you back, you know, the 10 blue links and you’ve got a medical query, what might come back in those links is a link to, you know something like the Mayo Clinic and then your regional university medical center, so in the Bay area, you know UCSF. And you might get a link to Dr. Oz’s page and you might get a link to a discussion forum where people with the same medical questions are talking to each other. And you can then look at those and understand the information that’s there based on what you know about the Mayo Clinic and UCSF and Dr. Oz and discussion forums. But that also helps you continue to update what you know, about those kinds of sites. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whereas if you asked a chatbot and you got back something that was just sort of some paper mache made up out of some combination of what’s in those sites, you not only don’t know how to contextualize what you’ve seen, but you’re also cut off from ability to continue to understand the information environment. And then very importantly, if you think about that discussion forum, any given, you know, sentence from that discussion forum interpreted as information, you’re going to want to take with a big grain of salt. But the chance to connect with people who are going through the same medical journey is priceless. And there’s a, the scholar Chris Gilliard describes these technologies as technologies of isolation. And I think it’s really important to think about anytime you might turn to a chat bot- what would you have done three years ago? What would you have done when ChatGPT was not in your world and what are you missing out on by not doing that now? The connections that you would make with people, the ongoing maintenance of relationships, the building of community, the deeper sense of what’s going on in the world around you, all of these are precious and I think not to be thrown away for the semblance of convenience. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then I think the final thing that I would say is look out for, identify, and reject the inevitability narrative. So the tech companies would like us to believe that AI is the future, it’s definitely coming. Even if you don’t like it, you have to resign yourself to it. And you’ll get people saying, well, it’s here to stay, we have to learn what to live with it. And I refuse that. I say that is also a bid to steal our agency because the future is not written. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Those are all my questions. Thank you so much for joining us.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, thank you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a pleasure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s close all of these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa and edited by Jen Chien. Close All tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our senior editor. Additional editing by Chris Hambrick and Jen Chien, who’s KQED’s director of podcasts. Original music, including our theme song and credits by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor in chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Greywood V3 switches and Cherry Profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Follow us on Instagram at CloseAllTabsPod, or TikTok at Close All Tabs. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "When ChatGPT launched in 2022, it kicked off what some have called the “AI hype machine” — a frenzy of promotion and investment that has sent some tech companies’ valuations soaring to record heights. Meanwhile, computational linguist Emily M. Bender and AI researcher and sociologist Alex Hanna have proudly worn the titles of “AI hype busters,” critiquing the industry’s loftiest claims and pointing out the real-world harms behind this wave of excitement. What began as a satirical podcast is now a book, The AI Con: How to Fight Big Tech’s Hype and Create the Future We Want. In this episode, Alex and Emily explain why the very term “AI” is misleading, how AI boosters and doomers are really flip sides of the same coin, and why we should question the AI inevitability narrative.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When ChatGPT launched in 2022, it kicked off what some have called the “AI hype machine” — a frenzy of promotion and investment that has sent some tech companies’ valuations soaring to record heights. Meanwhile, computational linguist Emily M. Bender and AI researcher and sociologist Alex Hanna have proudly worn the titles of “AI hype busters,” critiquing the industry’s loftiest claims and pointing out the real-world harms behind this wave of excitement. What began as a satirical podcast is now a book, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://thecon.ai/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The AI Con\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How to Fight Big Tech’s Hype and Create the Future We Want\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. In this episode, Alex and Emily explain why the very term “AI” is misleading, how AI boosters and doomers are really flip sides of the same coin, and why we should question the AI inevitability narrative. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC5696998106\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bsky.app/profile/emilymbender.bsky.social\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emily Bender\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, professor of linguistics the University of Washington\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bsky.app/profile/alexhanna.bsky.social\">Alex Hanna\u003c/a>, director of research at the Distributed AI Research Institute\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading/listening: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://thecon.ai/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The AI Con: How to Fight Big Tech’s Hype and Create the Future We Want\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Emily Bender and Alex Hanna\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.dair-institute.org/maiht3k/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Mystery AI Hype Theater 3000 Podcast\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Emily M. Bender and Alex Hanna\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.techpolicy.press/ai-hurts-consumers-and-workers-and-isnt-intelligent/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“AI” Hurts Consumers and Workers — and Isn’t Intelligent\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Emily Bender and Alex Hanna, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tech Policy Press\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://lithub.com/on-the-very-real-dangers-of-the-artificial-intelligence-hype-machine/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the Very Real Dangers of the Artificial Intelligence Hype Machine: Emily M. Bender and Alex Hanna Explore AI History, the Cold War, and a Fatally Overhyped Idea \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Emily M. Bender, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">LitHub\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/sora-2-content-violation-guardrails-error/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People Are Crashing Out Over Sora 2’s New Guardrails\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Samantha Cole, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">404 Media\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://futurism.com/artificial-intelligence/sora-2-financial-problem\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sora 2 Has a Huge Financial Problem\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Victor Tangermann, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Futurism\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/05/20/1116327/ai-energy-usage-climate-footprint-big-tech/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We did the math on AI’s energy footprint. Here’s the story you haven’t heard.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — James O’Donnell and Casey Crownhart, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A few weeks ago, OpenAI launched an app, Sora. It’s a vertical video social platform, similar to TikTok, except all the videos are generated by the company’s AI image generator, Sora 2. Within days, the app was a copyright infringement nightmare. There were videos of SpongeBob cooking meth, unsanctioned Rick and Morty ads for crypto startups, and many, many videos of open AI CEO Sam Altman doing depraved things to copyrighted characters. Like the one where he brutally barbecues and carves up Pikachu. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[AI CEO Sam Altman] Pikachu on the grill here. It’s already got a beautiful char and it smells like somebody plugged in a chicken. Let’s give it a flip. I’m gonna carve it into some thick steaks. Look at that. Crust on the outside, pink and juicy in the middle. Cheers.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these 10 second videos require an immense amount of computing power, which is extremely costly to maintain. In a blog post, Sam Altman admitted that the company still needs to figure out how to make money off of Sora. He wrote, “People are generating much more than we expected per user, and a lot of videos are being generated for very small audiences.” Facing heat from copyright holders like Disney and Nintendo, Altman also announced extra guardrails for the app to curb infringement. Now, users are complaining that everything they try to generate using Sora 2 gets flagged as a violation of the copyrighted content policy. They’re already getting bored of the app. This whole cycle has been described as the AI hype machine. Big investments are made based on big promises of innovation, disruption, revolution. This hype fuels more investment, which, in turn, fuels the hype. The cycle continues when a new product launches. Meta, for example, launched its own AI social video app, called Vibes, last month too, which was quickly forgotten about when Sora launched. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI hype is effectively premised on fear of missing out. It is the fear that if you don’t get onto this new technology, you are going to be left behind. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Alex Hanna, a sociologist and the Director of Research at the Distributed AI Research Institute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you’re a corporate manager, you’re going to have your competitors just leave you in the dust. If you are a teacher, you are doing a disservice to your students by not preparing them for the job market of the future. If you were a student, you were going to miss out on all the skills and all your classmates are going to be outperforming you. And as a worker, you will be doing things the old way, the analog way, and everyone is going to be outpacing you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alex and her co-author, Emily M. Bender, recently published a book, The AI Con, How to Fight Big Tech’s Hype and Create the Future We Want. Emily runs the computational linguistics program at the University of Washington. This is a field of study that combines human language with machine learning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I often get asked the question, well aren’t you worried that students are going to get left behind? Etc. And my answer to that is often, where is everybody going? Like, this metaphor of left behind suggests that people are running off into some brilliant future. I just don’t see it, you know, setting aside the fact that the technology doesn’t do what it’s being sold to do, but that is overhyped and over promised. The idea that we’d be better off with instead of interacting with people at all stages, interacting with screens that that’s just not the future that I want. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, we’re talking about the AI hype machine, when it started, how it’s fed, and why a growing corner of critics say they see right through it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right, like we always do, we’re starting by opening a new tab. What is P-Doom? In their book, The AI Con, Alex and Emily talk about these two groups. There are the AI boosters, the people who are optimistic that AI will pave the way to our utopian future. Then there are the AI doomers: the people that catastrophize, and believe that AI progress will usher in an era of societal collapse and human extinction. It’s very Matrix. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from the film “The Matrix] The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But before we break this down further, let’s start by defining our terms. Here’s Emily. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Artificial intelligence does not refer to a coherent set of technologies, and it has throughout its history, since it was coined by John McCarthy in 1955, basically been used to sell this idea of some magic do-everything technology in order to get money. Initially, it was research funding and then DOD money and now a lot of it is venture capital money. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and the way that this has proliferated in the modern day is that so many things get called AI. So that could be automated decision-making systems used for determining whether someone gets social services. And so that gets looped in, and then we also get recommendation systems, things like the TikTok algorithm, the Instagram Reels algorithm, pick your short-form video. But then, it’s really manifest in these large language models and diffusion models that are looped into the category of generative AI.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You start this book from this one moment in 2023, when Chuck Schumer at the time, the Senate majority leader, held a series of forums around AI. Can you take us back to that moment and like set the scene for us? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, late 2023, Chuck Schumer is convening the eighth of total nine Senate Insight forums around AI, and he asks folks, this is very weird, he asks, “what is folks’ probability of doom?” And this is abbreviated as P(doom), and for this instance, it’s an audio platform, that is P, open parentheses, doom, closed parentheses. And he also asked, “what people’s pee hope is.” So this means what is your probability that there’s going to be some kind of a doom scenario, in which through, you know, hook or crook, some kind of thing called AI is going to outperform or outsmart humans and take over and lead to human extinction. And in the book, we start and we say, well, this is the wrong question. But also if you’re looking at harms that are happening in the here and now, there are many that exist, whether that be deep fake porn being made out of non-consensual adults and children, the use of automated decision-making and weapons targeting, especially in Gaza, and then we also talk about students having their exams effectively being judged by these automated tools. So talking about P(doom) in this register is asking the wrong question and focusing on the wrong things. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But oftentimes it looks like the doomers, the people with a high P(doom) value, the people who take that question seriously in the first place, um, and the boosters, the people who say this is gonna solve all our problems, are like the opposite ends of a spectrum. And that is how these people present themselves, it is how the media often presents what’s going on, and it is very misleading. I think that one of the points that we make is that doomerism is another kind of AI hype, because it’s saying, our system is very powerful. It’s so powerful, it’s going to kill us all, is a way of saying it’s very powerful, but also we make the point that the doomers and the boosters are two sides of the same coin. And it, I think, becomes very clear if you look at it this way, which is to say, the doomers say, “AI is a thing, it’s imminent, it’s inevitable, and it’s gonna kill us all.” And the boosters say, “AI’s a thing, it’s imminent, it’s inevitable, and it is gonna solve all of our problems.” And it’s pretty easy to see these are the same position with just a different twist at the end. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the funny thing about this boosterism, doomerism dichotomy is that these are many of the same people or they run in many of same circles. So, you know, there was this document that was put out called AI 2027, in which it ends with humanity dying and the kind of choose your own adventure. There’s only two endings here. The choose your own adventure and one of them, you know everyone dies. But the lead author of this works at OpenAI. And there’s many such cases of people who are working on quote unquote, “AI alignment”, who are in these industries. So, it’s again not as if they’re against the building of AI, or we should just say no, it’s actually a very narrow segment of people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You described this industry as the AI hype machine, the modern AI hype machine, what does it look like? I mean, who are the players? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, the players are many of the big tech players that we know. So Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Meta, but with some new entrants, OpenAI being the most significant one. Um, and along with OpenAI, a few offshoots, so Anthropic is kind of the most notable one. And then the company that’s creating the shovels for the gold rush, so that’s your Nvidia, and then your Taiwanese semiconductor manufacturing company, abbreviated as TSMC. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to say that we see AI hype not just originating from those big players, like that is a large source of it. Also we hear over and over and again about people working in various businesses being told by their higher ups that they have to try this new AI thing. And so there’s this sort of secondary promulgation of hype that comes from middle management and up that have been sold on the idea that this is going to, you know, really increase productivity. And, you know, on the one hand, it’s a very useful excuse for doing layoffs that they may have otherwise already wanted to do, but then on the other hand, some people seem to have really bought into the idea. So they tell the people working for them, you have to spend time figuring out how to make yourself more productive by using these so-called AI tools, because everyone’s telling me that that’s the way of the future. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, the obvious way people are, these players, are feeding into the AI hype machine is by extolling the virtues of AI, or, you know, kind of spreading this very doomerous sci-fi rhetoric. But what other strategies are being used to feed this machine? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So one important strategy is what I sometimes call citations to the future. So people will say, yeah, yeah. It’s got problems now, but it’s going to do all of these things. And I think it really is the only technology that we are expected to evaluate based on promises of what it will be doing, right? That car that I just bought only gets, you know, 35 miles to the gallon. But that’s OK, because the later one’s going to get 50. We don’t talk about it that way, except with the so-called AI technology.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, citations to the future is one big strategy and another one is anthropomorphizing language, talking about things that have happened as if the computer systems themselves did it of their own volition and autonomously instead of people having used the system to do it or done something in order to build the system. So it’ll be something like, AI needs lots and lots of data. Well, no, people who want to build the system that they’re calling AI are amassing lots and lots of data in order to build them, or AI is thirsty, it needs lots of water, or AI was able to identify, you know, something in a blurry image. It’s like — in no sense, right? \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People used XYZ tool in order do a thing, or in order to build these tools, they are using lots of of water and so on. So this anthropomorphizing language sort of shifts the people out of the frame and hides a bunch of accountability, and at the same time, makes the systems sound cooler than they are. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alex and Emily also pointed out that players in the AI industry push this adoption of AI into our everyday lives by really trying to humanize the product. We’re gonna dive into that in a new tab. First, a quick break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Time for a new tab! Are we really just meat machines?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s talk about the technology itself, like the way people talk about large language models as AI, um, ChatGPT, Claude, Grok. Many people understand that these models are basically predicting the words that most often go together. But can you break it down further? Like, what’s really going on under the hood there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, the first very important lesson is that when we say word, we’re actually talking about two things. We’re talking about the way the word is spelled and pronounced and what it is used to mean. And one thing that makes that hard to keep in mind is that as proficient speakers of the languages we speak, pretty much anytime we encounter the spelling or sound of a word, we are also encountering what the person using it is using it to talk about. And so we always experience the form and meaning together. But a language model, so that the core component of something like Gemini or Grok or Claude or ChatGPT is literally a system for modeling which bits of words go with which other bits of words in whatever the input collection of text was to create that model. And so what we have are models that are very good at putting literally like spellings of parts of words next to each other in a way that looks like something somebody might say. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emily and Alex have come up with a few phrases that illustrate what large language models really are, which also describe the limitations of this tech. We’ve got synthetic text extruding machine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The choice of the word extrude is very intentional because it’s a little gross. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Racist pile of linear algebra. Spicy autocomplete. And one phrase that really took off, stochastic parrot. Emily coined the phrase in a research paper she co-authored in 2020. Parrots can mimic human speech, but whether they can really comprehend it, that’s dubious. Stochastic comes from probability theory. It means randomly determined. So a stochastic parrot essentially mimics language in a random order and does so convincingly, but it doesn’t understand it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Starting with OpenAI’s GPT-2 and GPT3, they were using it to create synthetic text. And so one of the things we worried about in that paper is what happens if someone comes across synthetic text and doesn’t know that it was synthetic? What we didn’t realize at the time is that people would be happy to look at synthetic text while knowing that it’s synthetic. That is very surprising to me. And so the phrase stochastic parrots was this attempt to make vivid what’s going on, to help people understand why the output of a language model run to repeatedly answer the question, what’s a likely next word, is not the same thing as text produced by a person or group of people with something to communicate. And what’s happened, it’s been fascinating as a linguist to watch that phrase go out into the world, so for the first little while, it was people referring to the paper, and then it sort of became people talking about, um, that claim that large language models are not understanding, they’re just repeatedly predicting a likely next word. And then it got picked up or interpreted as an insult, which is surprising to me because in order for it to be an insult, the thing that it’s being applied to would have to the kind of thing that could be insulted. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then in 2022, Sam Altman tweeted, I am a stochastic parrot and so are you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think what happens when Sam Altman picks it up and tweets that is that it is, on the one hand, sort of an attempt to reclaim what is understood as an insult or slur by people in that mindset, but also, and very importantly, it is about minimizing what it is to be human, so that he can claim that the system that he’s built is as good as a person.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emily and Alex say this concept of comparing humans to, essentially, flesh machines is a classic move in the AI hype machine playbook. It’s reducing humanity and what it means to be human to programming, like Eliza in the 60s. Eliza was an early natural language processing program designed to mimic a therapist. Think of it as a great, great, great, grand chatbot of ChatGPT. A lot of people, from academics to government leaders to tech industry giants, bought into the Eliza hype. And that freaked out Eliza’s own creator, Joseph Weizenbaum. In a book he published in the 70s, Weizenbaum warned that machines would never be able to make the same decisions that humans make because they don’t have human empathy. His criticism of AI caused a stir in the research community. And decades later, AI boosters are still making that same claim. That humans and machines aren’t that different. But what does this devaluing of humanity really mean for us? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, it means a lot of things. It really seems to emphasize that there is, kind of, aspects of human behavior that can just be reduced to our observable outputs, right? Humans are just things that output language or output actions, when that’s not true. Humans have a much more vivid internal life. Um, we think about others. Uh, we think about, kind of, co-presence, but it’s more about saying how we’re comparing ourselves to machines that are programmed by people and those people in those institutions have particular types of incentives to make machines that behave as such. So that’s the kind of implications that it has and it also has the implications of other kinds of moves into humanism, dehumanization and what that does and how we treat people and with regards to dignity and propriety of rights. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you also give concrete examples of where we see this kind of, uh, devaluing of humans? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think if we say that humans can be reduced to their outputs, that that leads to lots of problems. And one is we end up saying, you know, the form of, or the words that teachers and students say in the classroom is the learning situation. And so we can replace the teacher with a system for outputting words and then those students will get as much and maybe it’ll be personalized and it’ll better. And that is dehumanizing to teachers clearly and also to students because it removes, you know, everything that is about the student and teacher’s internal life and about their relationship and about their community from the situation. But I think it’s also really important in terms of the workforce more generally, that basically if we say, well, humans like large language models are systems for outputting words, then it’s a very small step to basically saying the whole value of this person is how many words they can output and doing a very, very dehumanizing work environment to people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We also see this in other domains like the Amazon work floor and the ways that these mini robots flit from place to place and the so-called quote unquote pickers. People on Amazon work warehouses have to pick things and then deliver them. So there’s a lot of implications for that and I think also in seeing the humanity in other folks and how we treat other folks. You know, if they’re merely meat machines, then what does it say about how we view them with respect to, kind of, personal rights and human rights and what kind of rights they should be afforded? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This idea of human beings just being walking meat machines is chilling. It definitely creeped me out. What are the other real world consequences of this thinking? Let’s open a new tab. Who’s really harmed by AI hype? Alex and Emily have said that their goal with writing the AI con is to reduce the harm caused by AI hype. Automation, for example, doesn’t just replace jobs. Healthcare providers are increasingly relying on AI products for medical triage to decide which patients to see first. Free legal representation, a guaranteed right in criminal cases, can be replaced by a lawyer using a chat bot. All of this potentially lowers the quality of these services. And introduces bias into these systems. Artists and other creatives, meanwhile, are struggling to make ends meet as AI generators, sometimes trained on their own work, are used as a cheaper, faster alternative. And then there’s how large language models are disrupting our whole information ecosystem. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a metaphor we use in the book, the idea that information is being output from these models and results in information ecosystem spills, like toxic spills that really can’t be cleaned up. There’s not really a reliable way to detect synthetic text. And so you’re having to deal with and navigate and try to understand whether something on the internet is actually reflective of truth claims that are being made and perhaps researched more deeply by human individuals. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve written that the strongest critiques against AI boosterism come from black, brown, poor, queer, and disabled scholars and activists. Can you talk about some examples of these critiques and why these groups specifically are so uniquely positioned to make them? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we wrote about that in the register of thinking about the ways in which systems, in here, I want to say data-driven systems, not just large language models, but even different systems just don’t work for black, brown communities, queer, and trans people, and then people like refugees and people on the move. The kind of pioneering work of Drs. Temnit Gebru and Joy Buolamwini in their paper Gender Shades talks about facial analysis systems, specifically the way that facial analysis systems do very poorly on darker-skinned women and that there’s a huge delta between darker-skinned women and lighter-skinned men. Sasha Costanza-Chock talks about how tools like TSA scanners do very poorly on trans people. Typically flagging genitals as anomalies or chest areas as anomalities, and then the kind of disparities of how systems talk about women. So there’s been a few papers talking about the ways in which different tools, in this case a word embedding space, makes associations between people and occupation. So, man is to doctor, women is to… typically, the completion is nurse, so it makes presuppositions of this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of this stuff effectively happens in large-language models [laughter] and happens in image generation models as well. There’s some great research by the Bloomberg data team that shows that if you input something like a nurse, uh, typically or a housekeeper, it outputs a kind of a phenotypically looking darker-skinned woman. If you type in CEO, white man. And so those kinds of elements are the bias element of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ruha Benjamin sums it up really nicely in this beautiful essay called The New Artificial Intelligentsia that appeared in the LA Review of Books in 2024. And she’s talking about these ideas of transhumanism and merging with the machines. She says this zealous desire to transcend humanity ignores the fact that we have not all had the chance to be fully human. My interpretation of what she’s saying is that the people that society does not accord full humanity to have a very different experience of technology, both in the ways, as Alex is saying, it’s being used on them, in the ways that doesn’t work well for them and just in the way that it intrudes on their life. And so people who have the privilege of not experiencing any of that tend to be less sensitized to what’s going on and to have a less informed perspective. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this less-informed perspective encourages AI boosters, who continue to fuel the hype machine. This means investing in and launching new products at a breakneck pace, often overlooking the real-world impact. The MIT Technology Review recently reported that generating one 5-second AI video uses about 3.4 million joules, the equivalent of running a microwave for over an hour. At scale this amount of energy consumption is devastating for the environment. And running all of this comes at a steep price for AI companies, too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like we talked about earlier, OpenAI’s Sora app is proving to be wildly expensive, with more users generating videos than actually watching them. And after the copyright fiasco and subsequent new guardrails, it seems like some initial adopters are already moving on. Can the hype machine sustain this kind of frenzied investment with such limited return? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we’re opening one last tab. Is the height machine breaking? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you think the AI hype bubble is going to burst? I mean, like, are there economic critiques? You’ve heard the social ones, but is there anything pointing to the AI height bubble possibly at least deflating? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, well, the problem is that there’s so much capital expenditure going into building things like data centers, and they’re going into these massive data center build out where, you know, the kind of projections and how much OpenAI, Microsoft, Google, Amazon, and Meta are spending on this all is astronomical. I mean, hundreds of billions of dollars, just some of the largest technological infrastructure projects that we’ve ever seen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the same time, OpenAI again, the company that has the most queries to Chat GPT, people using most of its products, is making revenue on the order of maybe $10 billion a year. So it’s just orders of magnitude less. And the kind of metaphor that’s being used as well, we have to build the railroads first, and then once the rail roads get going, we can put rail cars in them. But that metaphor doesn’t work at all. People are already using the product. And, you know, companies are already saying, we’re not getting a lot of value out of this. You know, there was an, something that was coming out of MIT, which said 95% of companies just haven’t really gained value from quote unquote AI. So what’s happening? This is very bubble shaped, you now, and I don’t know how the story ends, but it’s very alarming that these four to seven companies are propping up the US and world economy right now, so what happens when the bubble deflates or bursts, it’s not going to be good. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like you said, um, you finished this book in September 2024. The AI industry has only grown since then. What have you learned about the state of the AI hype machine from the reception to your book? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would say what I’ve learned the most about is about the resilience of people and the importance of connection and community. So the antidote to the hype is a variety of things, one is ridicule as praxis, as we say in the book, and also solidarity and labor movements, but also just sort of connection. And one form of that connection is that there’s a lot of people who are, who feel isolated in a workplace or a social circle where everyone around them seems just completely gaga for this technology and they’re the odd one out. And so one of the joys of both our podcasts and this book has been to find those people and be found by those people who say, oh, so glad I’m not the only one. And then they can form community with other people who have the same reaction and I think that that is super important. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the things we grapple a lot just like within Close All Tabs is where to draw the line with AI use, you know. And again, that’s complicated. What is AI? For example, we don’t use ChatGPT, but we use an AI transcription tool for our interviews. Are there conditions under which using large language models, AI tools, are reasonable or justified, appropriate? And then what’s your message to the average listener who maybe uses ChatGPT in their daily but they’re not necessarily AI boosters and not necessarily AI doomers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Um, so to the first question, I would say I never call it an AI transcription tool. I would say automatic transcription, right? And that is a use case where, you know, you want to look at the labor conditions of the people who produced it, where the training data come from. And it’s also a use case where you are well positioned to check the output and see if it’s working well for you, right. You’ve got something that has been recorded, you’ve got an automatically produced transcript, you’re presumably going through and correcting it. And if it is wrong all the time, or if you have one that is particularly bad for non-Anglo names, for example, you might start looking for something that’s better. So that is a case of automation that I think can be okay. You still want to look into who produced it. Are there privacy implications? Can I use this tool without uploading my data to somebody else and so on? But there’s reasonable uses and reasonable ways to produce automatic transcription. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we’re talking about chat bots of the form of ChatGPT, I don’t see reasonable use cases there. And partially we know that the labor and environmental costs are extraordinarily high, that this is not produced ethically. But even setting that aside, every time you turn to ChatGPT for information, you’re cutting yourself off from important sense-making. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the examples I like to use, if you think about an old fashioned search engine that gave you back, you know, the 10 blue links and you’ve got a medical query, what might come back in those links is a link to, you know something like the Mayo Clinic and then your regional university medical center, so in the Bay area, you know UCSF. And you might get a link to Dr. Oz’s page and you might get a link to a discussion forum where people with the same medical questions are talking to each other. And you can then look at those and understand the information that’s there based on what you know about the Mayo Clinic and UCSF and Dr. Oz and discussion forums. But that also helps you continue to update what you know, about those kinds of sites. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whereas if you asked a chatbot and you got back something that was just sort of some paper mache made up out of some combination of what’s in those sites, you not only don’t know how to contextualize what you’ve seen, but you’re also cut off from ability to continue to understand the information environment. And then very importantly, if you think about that discussion forum, any given, you know, sentence from that discussion forum interpreted as information, you’re going to want to take with a big grain of salt. But the chance to connect with people who are going through the same medical journey is priceless. And there’s a, the scholar Chris Gilliard describes these technologies as technologies of isolation. And I think it’s really important to think about anytime you might turn to a chat bot- what would you have done three years ago? What would you have done when ChatGPT was not in your world and what are you missing out on by not doing that now? The connections that you would make with people, the ongoing maintenance of relationships, the building of community, the deeper sense of what’s going on in the world around you, all of these are precious and I think not to be thrown away for the semblance of convenience. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then I think the final thing that I would say is look out for, identify, and reject the inevitability narrative. So the tech companies would like us to believe that AI is the future, it’s definitely coming. Even if you don’t like it, you have to resign yourself to it. And you’ll get people saying, well, it’s here to stay, we have to learn what to live with it. And I refuse that. I say that is also a bid to steal our agency because the future is not written. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Those are all my questions. Thank you so much for joining us.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily M. Bender: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, thank you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Hanna: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a pleasure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s close all of these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa and edited by Jen Chien. Close All tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our senior editor. Additional editing by Chris Hambrick and Jen Chien, who’s KQED’s director of podcasts. Original music, including our theme song and credits by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor in chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Greywood V3 switches and Cherry Profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Follow us on Instagram at CloseAllTabsPod, or TikTok at Close All Tabs. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"headTitle": "Newsom Vetoes Most-Watched Children’s AI Bill, Signs 16 Others Targeting Tech | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>California Gov. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/gavin-newsom\">Gavin Newsom\u003c/a> vetoed legislation that would have prohibited developers from offering companion AI chatbots for children unless the companies can promise the software won’t encourage harmful behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sacramento players across the political spectrum watched the legislation closely, with advocates issuing press releases, open letters and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038154/kids-talking-ai-companion-chatbots-stanford-researchers-say-thats-bad-idea\">research reports\u003c/a> in hopes of swaying California’s tech-friendly governor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In his \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/AB-1064-Veto.pdf\">veto message\u003c/a> published Monday, Newsom wrote that AB-1064 could lead to a total ban on minors using conversational AI tools. “AI is already shaping the world, and it is imperative that adolescents learn how to safely interact with AI systems,” Newsom wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re sorely disappointed to see Governor Newsom side with Big Tech over the more than 150 families who have suffered the most unimaginable loss: the passing of their child, encouraged by companion AI,” Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan of Orinda, the bill’s author, wrote in a statement, noting the bill was sponsored by Common Sense Media, California Attorney General Rob Bonta, and more than 20 organizations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“These AI companies know the risks their products pose. They’ve made purposeful design decisions that put kids in harm’s way, creating chatbots that form dangerous emotional bonds with vulnerable young people,” she added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11917730\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11917730\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/06/RS56739_IMG_4228-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/06/RS56739_IMG_4228-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/06/RS56739_IMG_4228-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/06/RS56739_IMG_4228-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/06/RS56739_IMG_4228-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/06/RS56739_IMG_4228-qut-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Assemblywoman Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, D-Orinda, on Political Breakdown. \u003ccite>(Guy Marzorati/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We’ve seen suicides lately. We’ve seen all sorts of mental health disruptions caused by AI companions. That said, the fight is just beginning,” Common Sense Media CEO Jim Steyer told KQED. “California is clearly leading the way in the United States and globally on these issues, and the next year or two are going to be absolutely critical in defining regulations, guardrails and a common sense future for the big tech industry.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The trade group TechNet lobbied heavily against the bill, \u003ca href=\"https://www.technet.org/the-impact-of-ca-ab-1064/\">running ads\u003c/a> that warned that Bauer-Kahan’s bill could deny children access to critical tools they need to succeed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We appreciate Governor Newsom’s thoughtful consideration and ultimate veto of this proposed legislation,” wrote Robert Boykin, TechNet’s Executive Director for California and the Southwest. “While TechNet shares the goal of AB 1064, the bill fails to meet its stated objectives while threatening students’ access to valuable AI-driven learning tools, potentially life-saving medical treatments, crisis response interventions, safety mechanisms, and other valuable AI technologies.”[aside postID=news_12059209 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008_ENDOF10_-9-KQED.jpg']The host of AI-related bills that made it to Newsom’s desk this legislative session presented him with a political \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12052617/newsoms-tightrope-walk-between-ai-regulation-and-silicon-valley-cash\">balancing act\u003c/a>, as he eyes a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12043766/newsom-tries-to-find-political-footing-in-clash-with-trump\">run for the White House\u003c/a>. Many of the bills were opposed by trade associations heavily bankrolled by Silicon Valley, and California is home to \u003ca href=\"https://www.forbes.com/lists/ai50/\">32 of the 50 top AI companies\u003c/a> worldwide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As if anticipating the blowback from child safety advocates, Newsom’s office released \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2025/10/13/governor-newsom-signs-bills-to-further-strengthen-californias-leadership-in-protecting-children-online/\">a list of 16 AI bills\u003c/a> he approved this session, some focused on children. “California has long stood as a bold leader in protecting children from the danger of emerging technology,” the statement read.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the list: SB 243 by Sen. Steve Padilla, D-San Diego, which placed softer limits on AI chatbots for kids. Advocacy groups, including Common Sense Media and \u003ca href=\"https://techoversight.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/SB-243-Remove-Support.pdf\">Tech Oversight California\u003c/a>, pulled their support from the bill in mid-September, arguing industry-friendly amendments weakened it and could establish a “dangerous” precedent for other states and countries taking California’s lead on AI regulation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a similar vein, Newsom signed an \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12058013/newsom-signs-california-ai-transparency-bill-tailored-to-meet-tech-industry-tastes\">industry-friendly version\u003c/a> of SB-53 by Sen. Scott Wiener (D-San Francisco), after his original effort became target No. 1 for Silicon Valley lobbyists\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12007323/can-california-still-lead-on-ai-regulation-following-newsoms-veto-of-ai-safety-bill\"> last legislative session\u003c/a> and died on Newsom’s desk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But not all the bills Newsom signed this legislation session lack teeth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>AB 621, for instance, expands the ability of deepfake pornography victims to sue anyone who creates, digitally alters, or distributes a sexually explicit image or video in which they appear to engage in sexual conduct without their consent. The expanded private right of action is considered a notable strength when most other AI bills rely on regulatory enforcement, penalties, or agency reporting to sway business practices.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steyer said he was happy to see Newsom’s signature on AB 56, which supporters say will require first-in-the-nation warning labels on social media, similar to what California has mandated on packaging for alcohol and cigarettes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s clear that Gov. Newsom, and also the first partner, Jennifer Siebel Newsom, who’s heavily involved in all this legislation, have listened to parents, and advocacy groups around the state,” Steyer said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Newsom Vetoes Most-Watched Children's AI Bill, Signs 16 Others Targeting Tech | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>California Gov. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/gavin-newsom\">Gavin Newsom\u003c/a> vetoed legislation that would have prohibited developers from offering companion AI chatbots for children unless the companies can promise the software won’t encourage harmful behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sacramento players across the political spectrum watched the legislation closely, with advocates issuing press releases, open letters and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038154/kids-talking-ai-companion-chatbots-stanford-researchers-say-thats-bad-idea\">research reports\u003c/a> in hopes of swaying California’s tech-friendly governor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In his \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/AB-1064-Veto.pdf\">veto message\u003c/a> published Monday, Newsom wrote that AB-1064 could lead to a total ban on minors using conversational AI tools. “AI is already shaping the world, and it is imperative that adolescents learn how to safely interact with AI systems,” Newsom wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re sorely disappointed to see Governor Newsom side with Big Tech over the more than 150 families who have suffered the most unimaginable loss: the passing of their child, encouraged by companion AI,” Assemblymember Rebecca Bauer-Kahan of Orinda, the bill’s author, wrote in a statement, noting the bill was sponsored by Common Sense Media, California Attorney General Rob Bonta, and more than 20 organizations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“These AI companies know the risks their products pose. They’ve made purposeful design decisions that put kids in harm’s way, creating chatbots that form dangerous emotional bonds with vulnerable young people,” she added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11917730\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11917730\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/06/RS56739_IMG_4228-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/06/RS56739_IMG_4228-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/06/RS56739_IMG_4228-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/06/RS56739_IMG_4228-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/06/RS56739_IMG_4228-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/06/RS56739_IMG_4228-qut-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Assemblywoman Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, D-Orinda, on Political Breakdown. \u003ccite>(Guy Marzorati/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We’ve seen suicides lately. We’ve seen all sorts of mental health disruptions caused by AI companions. That said, the fight is just beginning,” Common Sense Media CEO Jim Steyer told KQED. “California is clearly leading the way in the United States and globally on these issues, and the next year or two are going to be absolutely critical in defining regulations, guardrails and a common sense future for the big tech industry.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The trade group TechNet lobbied heavily against the bill, \u003ca href=\"https://www.technet.org/the-impact-of-ca-ab-1064/\">running ads\u003c/a> that warned that Bauer-Kahan’s bill could deny children access to critical tools they need to succeed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We appreciate Governor Newsom’s thoughtful consideration and ultimate veto of this proposed legislation,” wrote Robert Boykin, TechNet’s Executive Director for California and the Southwest. “While TechNet shares the goal of AB 1064, the bill fails to meet its stated objectives while threatening students’ access to valuable AI-driven learning tools, potentially life-saving medical treatments, crisis response interventions, safety mechanisms, and other valuable AI technologies.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>The host of AI-related bills that made it to Newsom’s desk this legislative session presented him with a political \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12052617/newsoms-tightrope-walk-between-ai-regulation-and-silicon-valley-cash\">balancing act\u003c/a>, as he eyes a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12043766/newsom-tries-to-find-political-footing-in-clash-with-trump\">run for the White House\u003c/a>. Many of the bills were opposed by trade associations heavily bankrolled by Silicon Valley, and California is home to \u003ca href=\"https://www.forbes.com/lists/ai50/\">32 of the 50 top AI companies\u003c/a> worldwide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As if anticipating the blowback from child safety advocates, Newsom’s office released \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2025/10/13/governor-newsom-signs-bills-to-further-strengthen-californias-leadership-in-protecting-children-online/\">a list of 16 AI bills\u003c/a> he approved this session, some focused on children. “California has long stood as a bold leader in protecting children from the danger of emerging technology,” the statement read.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the list: SB 243 by Sen. Steve Padilla, D-San Diego, which placed softer limits on AI chatbots for kids. Advocacy groups, including Common Sense Media and \u003ca href=\"https://techoversight.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/SB-243-Remove-Support.pdf\">Tech Oversight California\u003c/a>, pulled their support from the bill in mid-September, arguing industry-friendly amendments weakened it and could establish a “dangerous” precedent for other states and countries taking California’s lead on AI regulation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a similar vein, Newsom signed an \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12058013/newsom-signs-california-ai-transparency-bill-tailored-to-meet-tech-industry-tastes\">industry-friendly version\u003c/a> of SB-53 by Sen. Scott Wiener (D-San Francisco), after his original effort became target No. 1 for Silicon Valley lobbyists\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12007323/can-california-still-lead-on-ai-regulation-following-newsoms-veto-of-ai-safety-bill\"> last legislative session\u003c/a> and died on Newsom’s desk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But not all the bills Newsom signed this legislation session lack teeth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>AB 621, for instance, expands the ability of deepfake pornography victims to sue anyone who creates, digitally alters, or distributes a sexually explicit image or video in which they appear to engage in sexual conduct without their consent. The expanded private right of action is considered a notable strength when most other AI bills rely on regulatory enforcement, penalties, or agency reporting to sway business practices.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steyer said he was happy to see Newsom’s signature on AB 56, which supporters say will require first-in-the-nation warning labels on social media, similar to what California has mandated on packaging for alcohol and cigarettes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s clear that Gov. Newsom, and also the first partner, Jennifer Siebel Newsom, who’s heavily involved in all this legislation, have listened to parents, and advocacy groups around the state,” Steyer said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Repair Advocates Tell Microsoft: Stop the ‘End of Windows 10’",
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"content": "\u003cp>Earlier this year, Peter Volin, 78, logged onto his computer at his home in Albany to find an \u003ca href=\"https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-10-support-ends-on-october-14-2025-2ca8b313-1946-43d3-b55c-2b95b107f281\">email\u003c/a> from \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/microsoft\">Microsoft\u003c/a> that he described as “irritating.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It informed him that his trusty personal computer, which he used for word processing, editing photos and keeping in touch with friends, would soon no longer receive free, automatic updates from Microsoft. His computer’s operating system was running Windows 10, and he needed to upgrade to the new version, Windows 11, to continue receiving support.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Volin asked his local computer repair service to help with the upgrade, and that’s when he got the bad news. His computer didn’t meet the hardware requirements to upgrade to Windows 11, and he would have to get a new computer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Volin said he spent around $1,500 to purchase a new machine and hire a repair service to transfer over his files and install his preferred programs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s an expense I could have put off for another couple of years,” he said. “ I had a computer that was really filling all my needs.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As Microsoft is set to end free, automatic updates for Windows 10 on Tuesday, consumer advocacy organizations expect hundreds of millions of computer users, like Volin, will ditch their old machines in order to stay current with Microsoft’s latest software.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12059631\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12059631\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251010_ENDOF10_-7-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251010_ENDOF10_-7-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251010_ENDOF10_-7-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251010_ENDOF10_-7-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Peter Volin in his home office in Albany on Oct. 10, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11976367/bay-areas-fix-it-culture-thrives-as-right-to-repair-law-takes-effect-soon\">Right to repair\u003c/a> advocates, however, are calling on the company to reverse the move, saying it will lead to millions of computers being thrown away and leave those who don’t upgrade vulnerable to security threats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Microsoft rolled out Windows 10 over 10 years ago, and it’s still widely popular, with around 35% of all Windows users still running the operating system, according to \u003ca href=\"https://gs.statcounter.com/windows-version-market-share/desktop/worldwide\">StatCounter\u003c/a>, a web analytics service. Still, the company announced in 2023 that Windows 10’s days were numbered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>End of support means that while Windows 10 computers will continue to function, Microsoft will no longer offer free technical support, software updates or security fixes to its users.[aside postID=news_12049605 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/240202-FixitClinic-KSM-07_qed.jpg']Microsoft \u003ca href=\"https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-10-support-ends-on-october-14-2025-2ca8b313-1946-43d3-b55c-2b95b107f281\">calls \u003c/a>Windows 11 “a more modern, secure, and highly efficient computing experience,” and users have reported 62% fewer security incidents with Windows 11 than Windows 10.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Those with computers that meet hardware eligibility requirements can upgrade to Windows 11 for free. Microsoft is also offering an “extended security update” program, where Windows 10 users can purchase continued support through Oct.13, 2026.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jenn Engstrom, the state director of the California Public Interest Research Group, called the “end of 10” a “lose-lose-lose” situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s bad for consumers. It’s bad for security, and it’s bad for the environment,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Engstrom, it’s estimated that up to 400 million Windows 10 users worldwide have computers that lack the hardware to upgrade to Windows 11. In a letter to Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella calling on the company to continue free, automatic updates for Windows 10, CALPIRG and other organizations warned this could be the “single biggest jump in junked computers ever.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12059630\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12059630\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008_ENDOF10_-11-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1331\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008_ENDOF10_-11-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008_ENDOF10_-11-KQED-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008_ENDOF10_-11-KQED-1536x1022.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Del Jaljaa works on a laptop motherboard at his repair bench in San Francisco on Oct. 8, 2025. Right to Repair advocates warn that Microsoft’s move away from Windows 10 could create mountains of electronic waste. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“When Microsoft stops providing security updates for Windows 10, those computers will either be insecure and unsafe to keep using, or else turn into junk and get thrown out. Less than a \u003ca href=\"https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/electronic-waste-(e-waste)\">quarter \u003c/a>of electronic waste is recycled, so most of those computers will end up in landfills,” the \u003ca href=\"https://pirg.org/take-action/tell-microsoft-to-extend-free-support-for-windows-10/\">letter\u003c/a> stated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Past campaigns to pressure Microsoft into continuing support have been successful. In 2024, Microsoft extended Windows 10 security updates to schools in the United States for three years after a \u003ca href=\"https://pirg.org/articles/why-microsoft-extended-windows-10-support-for-schools-for-1/\">campaign \u003c/a>by consumer advocates. Pressure from a \u003ca href=\"https://www.euroconsumers.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/Euroconsumers_vs_Microsoft_092025.pdf\">European consumer advocacy group\u003c/a> has also led Microsoft to offer free automatic updates for the next year to Windows 10 users in the \u003ca href=\"https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Glossary:European_Economic_Area_(EEA)\">European Economic Area\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ We think that when people buy a device, they should be able to use it as long as they possibly can,” Engstrom said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KQED reached out to Microsoft, but a spokesperson declined to comment. The company has also not responded to calls by CALPIRG and other organizations to extend free, automatic Windows 10 support in the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Del Jaljaa, the owner of San Francisco Computer Repair on the edge of the city’s Mission District, said he has seen a steady drumbeat of clients over the past few months coming in seeking help with their upgrade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12059693\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12059693\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008_Endof10_-6_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008_Endof10_-6_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008_Endof10_-6_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008_Endof10_-6_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Computer hardware boxes line the wall of San Francisco Computer Repair as owner Del Jaljaa poses for a portrait in his shop on Oct. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“ I don’t know why they’re ending [Windows 10],” Jaljaa said. “It seems from the working perspective that it does the same thing [as Windows 11].”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jaljaa said he has been telling his customers not to panic, and that if they want to keep using Windows 10, they can get by with a good antivirus software.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ But those computers, they’re getting old too. They might just be forced to get a new computer,” Jaljaa said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Other groups in the right to repair movement have started an End of 10 initiative, which provides tools and help to Windows 10 users to convert their computer to a \u003ca href=\"https://endof10.org/\">Linux operating system\u003c/a> to keep it working securely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But some information technology professionals, like Vladimir Galant, see the “end of 10” as a normal part of the technology lifecycle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>”Sometimes you have to replace outdated hardware. I don’t see a real concern here,” said Galant, owner of 911 PC Help in San Francisco, which provides outsourced IT departments for small businesses in the Bay Area. “The majority of our clients understand the necessity to upgrade, because if something happens security-wise, they can go down for a long time, and that’s what we’re trying to avoid.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Earlier this year, Peter Volin, 78, logged onto his computer at his home in Albany to find an \u003ca href=\"https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-10-support-ends-on-october-14-2025-2ca8b313-1946-43d3-b55c-2b95b107f281\">email\u003c/a> from \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/microsoft\">Microsoft\u003c/a> that he described as “irritating.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It informed him that his trusty personal computer, which he used for word processing, editing photos and keeping in touch with friends, would soon no longer receive free, automatic updates from Microsoft. His computer’s operating system was running Windows 10, and he needed to upgrade to the new version, Windows 11, to continue receiving support.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Volin asked his local computer repair service to help with the upgrade, and that’s when he got the bad news. His computer didn’t meet the hardware requirements to upgrade to Windows 11, and he would have to get a new computer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Volin said he spent around $1,500 to purchase a new machine and hire a repair service to transfer over his files and install his preferred programs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s an expense I could have put off for another couple of years,” he said. “ I had a computer that was really filling all my needs.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As Microsoft is set to end free, automatic updates for Windows 10 on Tuesday, consumer advocacy organizations expect hundreds of millions of computer users, like Volin, will ditch their old machines in order to stay current with Microsoft’s latest software.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12059631\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12059631\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251010_ENDOF10_-7-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251010_ENDOF10_-7-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251010_ENDOF10_-7-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251010_ENDOF10_-7-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Peter Volin in his home office in Albany on Oct. 10, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11976367/bay-areas-fix-it-culture-thrives-as-right-to-repair-law-takes-effect-soon\">Right to repair\u003c/a> advocates, however, are calling on the company to reverse the move, saying it will lead to millions of computers being thrown away and leave those who don’t upgrade vulnerable to security threats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Microsoft rolled out Windows 10 over 10 years ago, and it’s still widely popular, with around 35% of all Windows users still running the operating system, according to \u003ca href=\"https://gs.statcounter.com/windows-version-market-share/desktop/worldwide\">StatCounter\u003c/a>, a web analytics service. Still, the company announced in 2023 that Windows 10’s days were numbered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>End of support means that while Windows 10 computers will continue to function, Microsoft will no longer offer free technical support, software updates or security fixes to its users.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Microsoft \u003ca href=\"https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-10-support-ends-on-october-14-2025-2ca8b313-1946-43d3-b55c-2b95b107f281\">calls \u003c/a>Windows 11 “a more modern, secure, and highly efficient computing experience,” and users have reported 62% fewer security incidents with Windows 11 than Windows 10.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Those with computers that meet hardware eligibility requirements can upgrade to Windows 11 for free. Microsoft is also offering an “extended security update” program, where Windows 10 users can purchase continued support through Oct.13, 2026.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jenn Engstrom, the state director of the California Public Interest Research Group, called the “end of 10” a “lose-lose-lose” situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s bad for consumers. It’s bad for security, and it’s bad for the environment,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Engstrom, it’s estimated that up to 400 million Windows 10 users worldwide have computers that lack the hardware to upgrade to Windows 11. In a letter to Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella calling on the company to continue free, automatic updates for Windows 10, CALPIRG and other organizations warned this could be the “single biggest jump in junked computers ever.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12059630\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12059630\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008_ENDOF10_-11-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1331\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008_ENDOF10_-11-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008_ENDOF10_-11-KQED-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008_ENDOF10_-11-KQED-1536x1022.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Del Jaljaa works on a laptop motherboard at his repair bench in San Francisco on Oct. 8, 2025. Right to Repair advocates warn that Microsoft’s move away from Windows 10 could create mountains of electronic waste. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“When Microsoft stops providing security updates for Windows 10, those computers will either be insecure and unsafe to keep using, or else turn into junk and get thrown out. Less than a \u003ca href=\"https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/electronic-waste-(e-waste)\">quarter \u003c/a>of electronic waste is recycled, so most of those computers will end up in landfills,” the \u003ca href=\"https://pirg.org/take-action/tell-microsoft-to-extend-free-support-for-windows-10/\">letter\u003c/a> stated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Past campaigns to pressure Microsoft into continuing support have been successful. In 2024, Microsoft extended Windows 10 security updates to schools in the United States for three years after a \u003ca href=\"https://pirg.org/articles/why-microsoft-extended-windows-10-support-for-schools-for-1/\">campaign \u003c/a>by consumer advocates. Pressure from a \u003ca href=\"https://www.euroconsumers.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/Euroconsumers_vs_Microsoft_092025.pdf\">European consumer advocacy group\u003c/a> has also led Microsoft to offer free automatic updates for the next year to Windows 10 users in the \u003ca href=\"https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Glossary:European_Economic_Area_(EEA)\">European Economic Area\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ We think that when people buy a device, they should be able to use it as long as they possibly can,” Engstrom said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KQED reached out to Microsoft, but a spokesperson declined to comment. The company has also not responded to calls by CALPIRG and other organizations to extend free, automatic Windows 10 support in the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Del Jaljaa, the owner of San Francisco Computer Repair on the edge of the city’s Mission District, said he has seen a steady drumbeat of clients over the past few months coming in seeking help with their upgrade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12059693\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12059693\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008_Endof10_-6_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008_Endof10_-6_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008_Endof10_-6_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251008_Endof10_-6_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Computer hardware boxes line the wall of San Francisco Computer Repair as owner Del Jaljaa poses for a portrait in his shop on Oct. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“ I don’t know why they’re ending [Windows 10],” Jaljaa said. “It seems from the working perspective that it does the same thing [as Windows 11].”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jaljaa said he has been telling his customers not to panic, and that if they want to keep using Windows 10, they can get by with a good antivirus software.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ But those computers, they’re getting old too. They might just be forced to get a new computer,” Jaljaa said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Other groups in the right to repair movement have started an End of 10 initiative, which provides tools and help to Windows 10 users to convert their computer to a \u003ca href=\"https://endof10.org/\">Linux operating system\u003c/a> to keep it working securely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But some information technology professionals, like Vladimir Galant, see the “end of 10” as a normal part of the technology lifecycle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>”Sometimes you have to replace outdated hardware. I don’t see a real concern here,” said Galant, owner of 911 PC Help in San Francisco, which provides outsourced IT departments for small businesses in the Bay Area. “The majority of our clients understand the necessity to upgrade, because if something happens security-wise, they can go down for a long time, and that’s what we’re trying to avoid.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "the-all-seeing-eyes-of-modern-dating",
"title": "The All-Seeing Eyes of Modern Dating",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happens to dating when every misstep has the potential to go viral? That’s what happened when social media posts warning about a few bad dates with a man named “West Elm Caleb” blew up on TikTok in 2022, and became a cautionary tale on the culture of public shaming. In this episode, Morgan speaks with tech journalist Tanya Chen and culture writer Magdalene Taylor about the rise of the “dating panopticon” — a world in which love, gossip, and surveillance collide. From ghosting to the hacked “Tea App,” they explore how online whisper networks meant to protect women have turned into digital minefields, and what it takes to opt out of turning our romantic lives into content.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8574284943\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://x.com/magdajtaylor?lang=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Magdalene Taylor\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, writer, culture critic, and senior editor at Playboy\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://x.com/tanyachen\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tanya Tianyi Chen\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, independent tech writer and editor\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading/listening: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.sexual-culture.com/p/reject-the-digital-dating-panopticon\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Reject the Digital Dating Panopticon\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Magdalene J. Taylor, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many Such Cases\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.sexual-culture.com/p/gender-relations-have-made-dating\">Gender Relations Have Made Dating a Hostile Act\u003c/a> — Magdalene J. Taylor, \u003ci>Many Such Cases\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/cyber-security/714750/tea-hack-breach\">Women’s ‘red flag’ app Tea is a privacy nightmare\u003c/a> — Tanya Tianyi Chen, \u003ci>The Verge \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://slate.com/culture/2022/01/west-elm-caleb-tiktok-explained.html\">West Elm Caleb: The TikTok mob’s latest target might not deserve its wrath.\u003c/a> — Madison Malone Kircher, \u003ci>Slate\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let me tell you an ancient cautionary tale about a man known as West Elm Caleb. Okay, this story is not that ancient. It took place in 2022, but in internet time, that’s eons ago. Caleb was a 20-something-year-old guy who lived in New York City, purportedly worked at the super trendy furniture company, West Elm, and became the poster child of everything wrong with dating app culture. It started on TikTok, when a woman named Mimi posted a video venting about getting ghosted by a man named Caleb. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mimi Shou: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I wasn’t going to make a video about this, but I feel like it’s my duty as your Asian older sister to warn my New York City girls about this Caleb from West Elm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Multiple other women commented, West Elm Caleb? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>TikTok Clip: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I saw somebody talking about West Elm Caleb. Tall man, works at the same place, same name. This is a little too coincidental. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>TikTok Clip: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Have you ever been personally victimized by West Elm Caleb? I’ve got the perfect f***ing song for you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As it turned out, Mimi was talking about a completely different man. But those other women realized that they had all briefly dated the same guy, a 20-something mustachioed West Elm designer named Caleb. And they started talking about their unpleasant experiences with so-called West Elm Caleb. So here’s what West Elm Caleb has been accused of. He was a serial ghoster. He allegedly sent an unsolicited nude. He dated several women at once, sometimes seeing them back-to-back on the same day. And he sent multiple women supposedly customized playlists of romantic songs, only for them to find out that he had actually recycled the same one. It’s one of the gravest offenses in dating. For a few weeks, this man was the internet’s public enemy number one. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I believe he lost his job due to this. You know, it was just a few women who dated him who really didn’t like it. And they just were sharing their stories and it grew so out of hand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Tanya Chen, an internet and tech reporter and my very online friend. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that was deeply unfortunate for Caleb, for West Elm Caleb. I do often wonder how he’s doing and where he is and how that whole experience shaped him forever. And again, I think we caveat to say, Morgan and I, we’re friends and we’re women and we’ve dated men. This is not to say that men should not be called out and should not have their feet held to the fire for their conduct. But how we do it and how things get out of hand is absolutely, I don’t think it justifies the crime in this case. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This culture of public shaming as punishment for bad behavior on dating apps is becoming more and more common. Whisper networks, meant to warn other women about dangerous men, have been twisted to harass people for the smallest offenses, like ghosting or refusing to commit to a relationship. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When it comes to dating, there’s so many difficult intimacy gaps and things happening between people. I’m sure we all have done things that we regret. We all have behaved in a way that we did not want to when it come to dating. And so for those extremely vulnerable and embarrassing moments to be then shared on such a public stage. It’s an incredibly unnerving experience, and I think it’s leading to a new host of behavioral and psychological problems, especially with young people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And now, these whisper networks have been infiltrated and turned against the women trying to keep each other safe. Like what happened with the Tea App. Tea Dating Advice, better known as the Tea App, went super viral over the summer as an app that has been described as Yelp for Men. It’s a closed, women-only platform that allows users to post about the red flags in men they’ve dated. The app was already contentious. Some people thought it violated men’s privacy. Then the app was hacked, twice, and user information like their driver’s licenses and private messages were spread online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This practice of monitoring and tattling on each other and of turning these intimate experiences into content is really just surveillance. The landscape of modern romance has changed dramatically in recent years, which has had devastating effects on the way people connect with each other. So what do we do about it? Today, we’re diving into the dating panopticon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll come back to Tanya, West Elm Caleb, and the Tea App later. First, how did we get here anyway? Let’s open our first tab. What is the dating panopticon? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the 1700s, this philosopher, Jeremy Bentham, came up with a concept of a circular prison. Jail cells line the perimeter of the building, and they all face a single watchtower looming in the center. The design is called a panopticon and comes from the Greek word for all seeing. The idea is that prisoners would behave because they think they’re being watched at all times. Today, the word panopticon is typically used as a metaphor for surveillance. And social media introduces a whole new dimension to the system. So to dive into this, we’re gonna talk to Magdalene Taylor, a sex and culture writer and senior editor at Playboy. Earlier this year, she wrote about the state of surveillance in modern romance in her newsletter, Many Such Cases. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So to me, the dating panopticon, it’s very much digitally focused, but it’s this pervasive sense that you are constantly being watched in your romantic interactions and that other people are constantly watching you. And with that, there’s a sense of surveillance and even sort of punishment involved. And we see a lot of this play out on dating apps, in Facebook groups, on just regular social media, Twitter, but then also in recent months, it’s really been distilled in apps like the Tea App. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Magdalene started thinking about the dating panopticon while watching another dating scandal unfold online. Back in the spring, then 22-year-old political influencer Harry Sisson was accused of leading on multiple women. They all thought they were dating him exclusively, via Snapchat, only to find out that he was allegedly sexting all of them at once. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While it’s obviously bad behavior on his part to be flirting with multiple women at a time on Snapchat, especially if these women were sending intimate photos and believing that they were the only one doing this, at the same time, I personally don’t find it all that unexpected or really newsworthy that a young 20-something-year-old man would be somewhat sexually active and perhaps even a little bit promiscuous. But something that the dating panopticon does is it distills these moments into a viral moment for everybody else to dissect and engage with and really play into the drama of. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When did you notice this shift in this culture of like public shaming and surveillance?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> To me, it really felt like the social media element of it all really blew up post-COVID and the immediate aftermath of being liberated from lockdowns. I think that we sort of momentarily lost touch with what normal human behavior and human interaction looks like, just the general ability to have a conversation with each other. And so going back into the dating world for a lot of people, I think was a very jarring experience. And with that, I think over the period of lockdown, a lot us probably got a lot more online. We probably got lot more hooked to our phones and became far more accustomed to filtering our lives through that lens specifically. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Magdalene also pointed to the MeToo movement, which took off in 2017 as survivors came forward with their experiences of sexual violence and harassment in Hollywood. It started with women sharing stories of abuse and mistreatment, offering support and solidarity to each other. When the pandemic shut everything down and TikTok blew up, a lot of human interaction was reduced to content. YouTubers and other influencers have been doing this for years. But with the pandemic? Everyone was online. And everyone could post and consume content. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that it did trickle down in a way where, in addition to sharing crimes that people have committed, it also kind of veered in a different direction for some people in sharing just bad date stories and more misbehavior type things like ghosting somebody or going on a couple of early dates with women at a time or something like that. And so I think that all of these factors kind of converge together in 2021 or so and made for an environment where sharing these stories, whether it be your personal testament or whether it just be gossip, is now a very popular thing to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, in a lot of these cases, it seems like these incidents of bad behavior, whether it’s ghosting or seeing multiple women at once before any relationship is exclusive, is often conflated with the actual abuse and violence that the Me Too movement was about. Why do these two very different relationship dynamics get conflated in this dating panopticon? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, so I think that at the core of the dating panopticon is the fact that we are constantly looking for new content to consume and new drama to unfold. And a lot of us are on our phones way too much. That’s again our primary source of entertainment and social interaction. I think it’s an entertainment value thing that we’re looking for something else to capture our attention. And periodically that means resorting to kind of high school level romantic drama. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How has different tech surveillance made this prominent other than just, you know, like public shaming? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The dating panopticon exists because the data history of all of our dating lives exists through apps and through social media. But then there’s also this culture of our smartphones have made it so that you can discreetly film somebody anytime, basically, and more than that, share that to Instagram, share that Twitter. But what the dating panopticon has done is that it has transformed all of us into the surveillers and our phones are really the tool through which we’re doing that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What are other ways you’ve seen this kind of surveillance culture manifest in modern dating? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I think unfortunately there’s a lot of fearfulness in dating right now, and I think it’s possible to argue that something like the sex recession or, you know, any of the various statistics that suggest that people are forming relationships less or dating less or otherwise just spending more time alone. I think that it’s possible to argue that all of that is connected to the dating panopticon. It’s my belief personally that the dating panopticon is causing a portion of the retreat from interpersonal life that we’re seeing among young people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s not just content that’s fueling the dating panopticon. The whisper networks are now being twisted for surveillance. That’s what happened with the Tea App. And we’ll break down the story of that privacy nightmare in a new tab. But first, a quick break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what’s up with the Tea App? Let’s open a new tab. The Tea App scandal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Tea App launched in 2023, but really started gaining traction over the summer when a new wave of users were approved to join. On TikTok, women started posting about their experiences on the app, from realizing that their boyfriends were cheating to warning others about a creepy date they had. As those stories blew up, more people joined the app. Like one person who shared her story with us. To protect her identity, we’re just going to refer to this person as N. She’s a single woman in her 20s, and like a lot of young women, has had some iffy experiences with dating. So, out of curiosity, she went on the Tea App. As she scrolled through the feed, she saw a familiar face. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>N: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I click on it, and it is the person that I thought it was. And it turned out to be this guy that I had been talking to for a little bit.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another user had posted about him after he slid into her DMs. She asked other Tea App users if anyone had information about him. So N responded from her anonymous account. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>N: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s not something where I can say like, oh, he like cheated or oh, it’s nothing like that, you know? But it was just a sign of, I don’t know, it’s just like, dang, like, dude, you could have just, like, we talked about it, like you could’ve just told me to my face, you know, and just been honest about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They exchanged a few messages and another girl jumped in and said this guy had also tried to hit on her and was pretty bummed out but she moved on. She stopped seeing the guy and then a couple of weeks later she got a text from an unknown number. This was outside of the app, directly to her phone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>N: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were just saying that I’m basically, I’m trying to like paint him out to be this really bad guy and that he’s like the only good guy left in the city. And that I’m trying to mess his reputation up and all this stuff and that I’m trying to like mess up his family and that he’s actually a nice person and all of this stuff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the thread on the Tea App multiple other users had responded to her, accusing her of lying about this guy. She eventually realized that one of his friends had probably seen the comments, figured out it was her, and sent the post to him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>N: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just deleted the app. I deleted everything. I was like, just leave me out of it. This experience has completely changed my perspective, not just on dating, just even in social media, just as a whole. I guess I’m like a Gen Z-er, so I’ve grown up with social media my whole life, but if I can go back and not post a response to that girl, I 100% would go back and erase that. I would not have posted on the app. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as it turns out, the Tea App itself was riddled with security blind spots. Let’s go back to my friend Tanya. She’s a tech journalist who recently covered the Tea App for The Verge. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The M.O. was to create this network online on the app that would essentially help women share stories, cues, protect each other from dating otherwise toxic, red-flaggy men. And we’ve seen this iteration in more unofficial online campaigns, like with, “are we dating the same guy” Facebook groups that sprouted up and gained popularity. So this was like the most official kind of wrangled in-app way that this has been done. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Tea App was supposed to be a giant global version of these local “are we dating the same guy” Facebook groups, like a background check database. Only women were allowed to join the app. And at first, potential users had to submit a photo of a government ID, like their driver’s license. They’ve since phased that out though, and just require selfies. The app says that these images are deleted after the user is verified. However, someone found an unsecured database of about 72,000 user images, including some 13,000 selfies and pictures of IDs. An anonymous user posted this database to 4chan. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the idea, the intent from these 4chan users was to shame and show how unprotected it was, but mostly to shame women who are posting on there because they felt really threatened by the app’s function. And from that 4chan post, tons of other 4chan users were able to access and download sensitive information and data. And even post them online. It was, I imagine, pretty, pretty stressful for everyone involved. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A week later, the Tea App was hacked again. The breach exposed over a million private messages, which included discussions of abortions and the phone numbers users sent each other. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that’s deeply concerning, I think for anyone who is not online. Imagine just someone being able to go through, rummage your stuff and print a picture of your image and staple it to a traffic light or something. It’s very violating. It is so hard to control. It’s so hard wrangle once you have that out there. I think that’s been the big lesson in all of this. Beyond, you know, the kind of social-cultural ramifications of doing this, there’s the deep concerning privacy issue that we’re still litigating out in society, in government. There are no laws, policies that protect anyone, users from protecting their own identities and their own likenesses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In response to the Tea App’s popularity, developers launched TeaOnHer, the men’s version of the Tea App to gossip about women. It turns out that TeaOnHer was also a privacy nightmare and also leaked users’ private information and government IDs. It wasn’t the only so-called Tea App for men.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of them got pulled down immediately because men resorted to revenge porn and you know incredibly illegal and exploitative and damaging ways that weren’t just to protect their fellow brethren. It was to again shame women, right. In this kind of discourse we do kind of see, you know, the disparities in how men and women date and how they perceive threats and how they respond to criticism, it is deeply fascinating and not at all surprising. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of whisper networks meant to keep other people safe, other marginalized people safe, they’re within closed circles, whether it’s a close friend story or text or like a group chat between friends. How does bringing that online suddenly make it a tool of surveillance? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love discussing surveillance culture in the panopticon. I think of all of us who are like extremely weary of the eyes online, the eyes on us. It’s just such a source of anxiety for so many of us when, yeah, how someone perceives you or represents you or their own narrative about you can make you feel seen in kind of a bad way or make you feels seen in a way that doesn’t give you, you know, good feelings or closure or healing. Surveillance culture is typically a destructive and perilous and anxiety-inducing experience. Someone has put you on the stage and you are being seen at 360 around you without your consent. And oftentimes you are muted. You don’t have the platform that you think you do and people are just kind of watching you and sometimes waiting for you to mess up so that they can report you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what can you do about this constant surveillance? Can you trust modern love when the internet is always watching? We’re going back to Magdalene and opening one last tab, rejecting the dating panopticon. How is this kind of culture of surveillance, this dating panopticon, how is that impacting the way people date and connect to each other and seek out new connections? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I think that the dating panopticon has jaded a lot of people who are still willing to engage in dating life at all. I think that it has made people fearful and suspicious of each other. I think that made a lot people afraid of each other and suspicious of their intentions and what harms could befall them for pursuing dating. And so I think that there’s all these little points of evidence to suggest that people are trying to get away from this sort of watchful eye of digital life in dating, but we’re not fully there yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Your essay was titled, Rejecting the Dating Panopticon. What does it mean to you to reject this kind of culture of surveillance? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that it means choosing to not engage with this culture of surveillance, whether that be you yourself decide to not post an awkward message that you received on Tinder or you choose to not comment on the latest TikTok thread of somebody in a state that you’re not in, the people you don’t even know having some kind of dating scandal among them. I hate to really go back to very simple platitudes of, you know, treat others how you want to be treated. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I think that a lot of us need to think about how we’re engaging with social media and deciding that we shouldn’t be using other people’s vulnerability and romantic pursuits as content. And, you know, it can be difficult to parse these things out because like we’ve been saying this whole time, cheating on women is bad, ghosting is bad. All of these things are examples of bad behavior. But it’s so easy for these things to go back to a much more basic level of we are going to publicly shame a guy for sliding into somebody’s DMs at all. These things can so quickly turn into us embarrassing each other for social media points. We have to be a bit more selective and we have to intentionally decide that that’s not how we want to live our lives. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that intentions are important thing to keep in mind here and that the dating panopticon encourages women not just to warn each other about bad behavior, but to make content because your brain likes notifications now because we’ve been hardwired to receive dopamine when our phone lights up. We can all do a little bit of a better job of understanding what our desire is in posting something. And are we posting about somebody because we actually want to warn other women, or are we posting about the shitty dates we went on because TikTok has incentivized us to do that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Remember N? She’s the woman who tried to give other users a heads up about the guy she was seeing, only to be harassed for it. N said that the experience has made her more cautious, not just about dating, but also about trusting what she thought was a safe space online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>N: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I first started using the app, yeah because it was anonymous, I did feel safe and just knowing I can share whatever information I wanted without people knowing that it was me. But after the situation that happened, the world is just a lot smaller than you think and people are a lot more connected than you’d think. I just realized that anything you put out there, is there’s always going to be a chance of it potentially coming back, whether it be good, bad, or whatever. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, maybe keep the whisper networks offline, or at least confined to a very, very trusted group chat. Let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Hambrick. Close All Tabs’ Producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor. Additional editing by Chris Hambrick and Jen Chien who is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Audio engineering by Brendan Willard and Brian Douglas. Original music, including our theme song and credits by Chris Egusa. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dust Silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "What happens to dating when every misstep has the potential to go viral? That’s what happened when social media posts warning about a few bad dates with a man named “West Elm Caleb” blew up on TikTok in 2022, and became a cautionary tale on the culture of public shaming. In this episode, Morgan speaks with tech journalist Tanya Chen and culture writer Magdalene Taylor about the rise of the “dating panopticon” — a world where love, gossip, and surveillance collide. From ghosting to the hacked “Tea App,” they explore how online whisper networks meant to protect women have turned into digital minefields, and what it takes to opt out of turning our romantic lives into content.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happens to dating when every misstep has the potential to go viral? That’s what happened when social media posts warning about a few bad dates with a man named “West Elm Caleb” blew up on TikTok in 2022, and became a cautionary tale on the culture of public shaming. In this episode, Morgan speaks with tech journalist Tanya Chen and culture writer Magdalene Taylor about the rise of the “dating panopticon” — a world in which love, gossip, and surveillance collide. From ghosting to the hacked “Tea App,” they explore how online whisper networks meant to protect women have turned into digital minefields, and what it takes to opt out of turning our romantic lives into content.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8574284943\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://x.com/magdajtaylor?lang=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Magdalene Taylor\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, writer, culture critic, and senior editor at Playboy\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://x.com/tanyachen\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tanya Tianyi Chen\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, independent tech writer and editor\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading/listening: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.sexual-culture.com/p/reject-the-digital-dating-panopticon\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Reject the Digital Dating Panopticon\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Magdalene J. Taylor, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many Such Cases\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.sexual-culture.com/p/gender-relations-have-made-dating\">Gender Relations Have Made Dating a Hostile Act\u003c/a> — Magdalene J. Taylor, \u003ci>Many Such Cases\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/cyber-security/714750/tea-hack-breach\">Women’s ‘red flag’ app Tea is a privacy nightmare\u003c/a> — Tanya Tianyi Chen, \u003ci>The Verge \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://slate.com/culture/2022/01/west-elm-caleb-tiktok-explained.html\">West Elm Caleb: The TikTok mob’s latest target might not deserve its wrath.\u003c/a> — Madison Malone Kircher, \u003ci>Slate\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let me tell you an ancient cautionary tale about a man known as West Elm Caleb. Okay, this story is not that ancient. It took place in 2022, but in internet time, that’s eons ago. Caleb was a 20-something-year-old guy who lived in New York City, purportedly worked at the super trendy furniture company, West Elm, and became the poster child of everything wrong with dating app culture. It started on TikTok, when a woman named Mimi posted a video venting about getting ghosted by a man named Caleb. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mimi Shou: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I wasn’t going to make a video about this, but I feel like it’s my duty as your Asian older sister to warn my New York City girls about this Caleb from West Elm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Multiple other women commented, West Elm Caleb? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>TikTok Clip: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I saw somebody talking about West Elm Caleb. Tall man, works at the same place, same name. This is a little too coincidental. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>TikTok Clip: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Have you ever been personally victimized by West Elm Caleb? I’ve got the perfect f***ing song for you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As it turned out, Mimi was talking about a completely different man. But those other women realized that they had all briefly dated the same guy, a 20-something mustachioed West Elm designer named Caleb. And they started talking about their unpleasant experiences with so-called West Elm Caleb. So here’s what West Elm Caleb has been accused of. He was a serial ghoster. He allegedly sent an unsolicited nude. He dated several women at once, sometimes seeing them back-to-back on the same day. And he sent multiple women supposedly customized playlists of romantic songs, only for them to find out that he had actually recycled the same one. It’s one of the gravest offenses in dating. For a few weeks, this man was the internet’s public enemy number one. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I believe he lost his job due to this. You know, it was just a few women who dated him who really didn’t like it. And they just were sharing their stories and it grew so out of hand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Tanya Chen, an internet and tech reporter and my very online friend. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that was deeply unfortunate for Caleb, for West Elm Caleb. I do often wonder how he’s doing and where he is and how that whole experience shaped him forever. And again, I think we caveat to say, Morgan and I, we’re friends and we’re women and we’ve dated men. This is not to say that men should not be called out and should not have their feet held to the fire for their conduct. But how we do it and how things get out of hand is absolutely, I don’t think it justifies the crime in this case. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This culture of public shaming as punishment for bad behavior on dating apps is becoming more and more common. Whisper networks, meant to warn other women about dangerous men, have been twisted to harass people for the smallest offenses, like ghosting or refusing to commit to a relationship. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When it comes to dating, there’s so many difficult intimacy gaps and things happening between people. I’m sure we all have done things that we regret. We all have behaved in a way that we did not want to when it come to dating. And so for those extremely vulnerable and embarrassing moments to be then shared on such a public stage. It’s an incredibly unnerving experience, and I think it’s leading to a new host of behavioral and psychological problems, especially with young people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And now, these whisper networks have been infiltrated and turned against the women trying to keep each other safe. Like what happened with the Tea App. Tea Dating Advice, better known as the Tea App, went super viral over the summer as an app that has been described as Yelp for Men. It’s a closed, women-only platform that allows users to post about the red flags in men they’ve dated. The app was already contentious. Some people thought it violated men’s privacy. Then the app was hacked, twice, and user information like their driver’s licenses and private messages were spread online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This practice of monitoring and tattling on each other and of turning these intimate experiences into content is really just surveillance. The landscape of modern romance has changed dramatically in recent years, which has had devastating effects on the way people connect with each other. So what do we do about it? Today, we’re diving into the dating panopticon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll come back to Tanya, West Elm Caleb, and the Tea App later. First, how did we get here anyway? Let’s open our first tab. What is the dating panopticon? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the 1700s, this philosopher, Jeremy Bentham, came up with a concept of a circular prison. Jail cells line the perimeter of the building, and they all face a single watchtower looming in the center. The design is called a panopticon and comes from the Greek word for all seeing. The idea is that prisoners would behave because they think they’re being watched at all times. Today, the word panopticon is typically used as a metaphor for surveillance. And social media introduces a whole new dimension to the system. So to dive into this, we’re gonna talk to Magdalene Taylor, a sex and culture writer and senior editor at Playboy. Earlier this year, she wrote about the state of surveillance in modern romance in her newsletter, Many Such Cases. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So to me, the dating panopticon, it’s very much digitally focused, but it’s this pervasive sense that you are constantly being watched in your romantic interactions and that other people are constantly watching you. And with that, there’s a sense of surveillance and even sort of punishment involved. And we see a lot of this play out on dating apps, in Facebook groups, on just regular social media, Twitter, but then also in recent months, it’s really been distilled in apps like the Tea App. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Magdalene started thinking about the dating panopticon while watching another dating scandal unfold online. Back in the spring, then 22-year-old political influencer Harry Sisson was accused of leading on multiple women. They all thought they were dating him exclusively, via Snapchat, only to find out that he was allegedly sexting all of them at once. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While it’s obviously bad behavior on his part to be flirting with multiple women at a time on Snapchat, especially if these women were sending intimate photos and believing that they were the only one doing this, at the same time, I personally don’t find it all that unexpected or really newsworthy that a young 20-something-year-old man would be somewhat sexually active and perhaps even a little bit promiscuous. But something that the dating panopticon does is it distills these moments into a viral moment for everybody else to dissect and engage with and really play into the drama of. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When did you notice this shift in this culture of like public shaming and surveillance?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> To me, it really felt like the social media element of it all really blew up post-COVID and the immediate aftermath of being liberated from lockdowns. I think that we sort of momentarily lost touch with what normal human behavior and human interaction looks like, just the general ability to have a conversation with each other. And so going back into the dating world for a lot of people, I think was a very jarring experience. And with that, I think over the period of lockdown, a lot us probably got a lot more online. We probably got lot more hooked to our phones and became far more accustomed to filtering our lives through that lens specifically. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Magdalene also pointed to the MeToo movement, which took off in 2017 as survivors came forward with their experiences of sexual violence and harassment in Hollywood. It started with women sharing stories of abuse and mistreatment, offering support and solidarity to each other. When the pandemic shut everything down and TikTok blew up, a lot of human interaction was reduced to content. YouTubers and other influencers have been doing this for years. But with the pandemic? Everyone was online. And everyone could post and consume content. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that it did trickle down in a way where, in addition to sharing crimes that people have committed, it also kind of veered in a different direction for some people in sharing just bad date stories and more misbehavior type things like ghosting somebody or going on a couple of early dates with women at a time or something like that. And so I think that all of these factors kind of converge together in 2021 or so and made for an environment where sharing these stories, whether it be your personal testament or whether it just be gossip, is now a very popular thing to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, in a lot of these cases, it seems like these incidents of bad behavior, whether it’s ghosting or seeing multiple women at once before any relationship is exclusive, is often conflated with the actual abuse and violence that the Me Too movement was about. Why do these two very different relationship dynamics get conflated in this dating panopticon? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, so I think that at the core of the dating panopticon is the fact that we are constantly looking for new content to consume and new drama to unfold. And a lot of us are on our phones way too much. That’s again our primary source of entertainment and social interaction. I think it’s an entertainment value thing that we’re looking for something else to capture our attention. And periodically that means resorting to kind of high school level romantic drama. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How has different tech surveillance made this prominent other than just, you know, like public shaming? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The dating panopticon exists because the data history of all of our dating lives exists through apps and through social media. But then there’s also this culture of our smartphones have made it so that you can discreetly film somebody anytime, basically, and more than that, share that to Instagram, share that Twitter. But what the dating panopticon has done is that it has transformed all of us into the surveillers and our phones are really the tool through which we’re doing that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What are other ways you’ve seen this kind of surveillance culture manifest in modern dating? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I think unfortunately there’s a lot of fearfulness in dating right now, and I think it’s possible to argue that something like the sex recession or, you know, any of the various statistics that suggest that people are forming relationships less or dating less or otherwise just spending more time alone. I think that it’s possible to argue that all of that is connected to the dating panopticon. It’s my belief personally that the dating panopticon is causing a portion of the retreat from interpersonal life that we’re seeing among young people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s not just content that’s fueling the dating panopticon. The whisper networks are now being twisted for surveillance. That’s what happened with the Tea App. And we’ll break down the story of that privacy nightmare in a new tab. But first, a quick break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what’s up with the Tea App? Let’s open a new tab. The Tea App scandal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Tea App launched in 2023, but really started gaining traction over the summer when a new wave of users were approved to join. On TikTok, women started posting about their experiences on the app, from realizing that their boyfriends were cheating to warning others about a creepy date they had. As those stories blew up, more people joined the app. Like one person who shared her story with us. To protect her identity, we’re just going to refer to this person as N. She’s a single woman in her 20s, and like a lot of young women, has had some iffy experiences with dating. So, out of curiosity, she went on the Tea App. As she scrolled through the feed, she saw a familiar face. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>N: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I click on it, and it is the person that I thought it was. And it turned out to be this guy that I had been talking to for a little bit.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another user had posted about him after he slid into her DMs. She asked other Tea App users if anyone had information about him. So N responded from her anonymous account. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>N: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s not something where I can say like, oh, he like cheated or oh, it’s nothing like that, you know? But it was just a sign of, I don’t know, it’s just like, dang, like, dude, you could have just, like, we talked about it, like you could’ve just told me to my face, you know, and just been honest about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They exchanged a few messages and another girl jumped in and said this guy had also tried to hit on her and was pretty bummed out but she moved on. She stopped seeing the guy and then a couple of weeks later she got a text from an unknown number. This was outside of the app, directly to her phone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>N: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were just saying that I’m basically, I’m trying to like paint him out to be this really bad guy and that he’s like the only good guy left in the city. And that I’m trying to mess his reputation up and all this stuff and that I’m trying to like mess up his family and that he’s actually a nice person and all of this stuff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the thread on the Tea App multiple other users had responded to her, accusing her of lying about this guy. She eventually realized that one of his friends had probably seen the comments, figured out it was her, and sent the post to him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>N: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just deleted the app. I deleted everything. I was like, just leave me out of it. This experience has completely changed my perspective, not just on dating, just even in social media, just as a whole. I guess I’m like a Gen Z-er, so I’ve grown up with social media my whole life, but if I can go back and not post a response to that girl, I 100% would go back and erase that. I would not have posted on the app. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as it turns out, the Tea App itself was riddled with security blind spots. Let’s go back to my friend Tanya. She’s a tech journalist who recently covered the Tea App for The Verge. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The M.O. was to create this network online on the app that would essentially help women share stories, cues, protect each other from dating otherwise toxic, red-flaggy men. And we’ve seen this iteration in more unofficial online campaigns, like with, “are we dating the same guy” Facebook groups that sprouted up and gained popularity. So this was like the most official kind of wrangled in-app way that this has been done. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Tea App was supposed to be a giant global version of these local “are we dating the same guy” Facebook groups, like a background check database. Only women were allowed to join the app. And at first, potential users had to submit a photo of a government ID, like their driver’s license. They’ve since phased that out though, and just require selfies. The app says that these images are deleted after the user is verified. However, someone found an unsecured database of about 72,000 user images, including some 13,000 selfies and pictures of IDs. An anonymous user posted this database to 4chan. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the idea, the intent from these 4chan users was to shame and show how unprotected it was, but mostly to shame women who are posting on there because they felt really threatened by the app’s function. And from that 4chan post, tons of other 4chan users were able to access and download sensitive information and data. And even post them online. It was, I imagine, pretty, pretty stressful for everyone involved. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A week later, the Tea App was hacked again. The breach exposed over a million private messages, which included discussions of abortions and the phone numbers users sent each other. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that’s deeply concerning, I think for anyone who is not online. Imagine just someone being able to go through, rummage your stuff and print a picture of your image and staple it to a traffic light or something. It’s very violating. It is so hard to control. It’s so hard wrangle once you have that out there. I think that’s been the big lesson in all of this. Beyond, you know, the kind of social-cultural ramifications of doing this, there’s the deep concerning privacy issue that we’re still litigating out in society, in government. There are no laws, policies that protect anyone, users from protecting their own identities and their own likenesses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In response to the Tea App’s popularity, developers launched TeaOnHer, the men’s version of the Tea App to gossip about women. It turns out that TeaOnHer was also a privacy nightmare and also leaked users’ private information and government IDs. It wasn’t the only so-called Tea App for men.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of them got pulled down immediately because men resorted to revenge porn and you know incredibly illegal and exploitative and damaging ways that weren’t just to protect their fellow brethren. It was to again shame women, right. In this kind of discourse we do kind of see, you know, the disparities in how men and women date and how they perceive threats and how they respond to criticism, it is deeply fascinating and not at all surprising. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of whisper networks meant to keep other people safe, other marginalized people safe, they’re within closed circles, whether it’s a close friend story or text or like a group chat between friends. How does bringing that online suddenly make it a tool of surveillance? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love discussing surveillance culture in the panopticon. I think of all of us who are like extremely weary of the eyes online, the eyes on us. It’s just such a source of anxiety for so many of us when, yeah, how someone perceives you or represents you or their own narrative about you can make you feel seen in kind of a bad way or make you feels seen in a way that doesn’t give you, you know, good feelings or closure or healing. Surveillance culture is typically a destructive and perilous and anxiety-inducing experience. Someone has put you on the stage and you are being seen at 360 around you without your consent. And oftentimes you are muted. You don’t have the platform that you think you do and people are just kind of watching you and sometimes waiting for you to mess up so that they can report you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what can you do about this constant surveillance? Can you trust modern love when the internet is always watching? We’re going back to Magdalene and opening one last tab, rejecting the dating panopticon. How is this kind of culture of surveillance, this dating panopticon, how is that impacting the way people date and connect to each other and seek out new connections? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I think that the dating panopticon has jaded a lot of people who are still willing to engage in dating life at all. I think that it has made people fearful and suspicious of each other. I think that made a lot people afraid of each other and suspicious of their intentions and what harms could befall them for pursuing dating. And so I think that there’s all these little points of evidence to suggest that people are trying to get away from this sort of watchful eye of digital life in dating, but we’re not fully there yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Your essay was titled, Rejecting the Dating Panopticon. What does it mean to you to reject this kind of culture of surveillance? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Magdalene Taylor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that it means choosing to not engage with this culture of surveillance, whether that be you yourself decide to not post an awkward message that you received on Tinder or you choose to not comment on the latest TikTok thread of somebody in a state that you’re not in, the people you don’t even know having some kind of dating scandal among them. I hate to really go back to very simple platitudes of, you know, treat others how you want to be treated. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I think that a lot of us need to think about how we’re engaging with social media and deciding that we shouldn’t be using other people’s vulnerability and romantic pursuits as content. And, you know, it can be difficult to parse these things out because like we’ve been saying this whole time, cheating on women is bad, ghosting is bad. All of these things are examples of bad behavior. But it’s so easy for these things to go back to a much more basic level of we are going to publicly shame a guy for sliding into somebody’s DMs at all. These things can so quickly turn into us embarrassing each other for social media points. We have to be a bit more selective and we have to intentionally decide that that’s not how we want to live our lives. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that intentions are important thing to keep in mind here and that the dating panopticon encourages women not just to warn each other about bad behavior, but to make content because your brain likes notifications now because we’ve been hardwired to receive dopamine when our phone lights up. We can all do a little bit of a better job of understanding what our desire is in posting something. And are we posting about somebody because we actually want to warn other women, or are we posting about the shitty dates we went on because TikTok has incentivized us to do that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Remember N? She’s the woman who tried to give other users a heads up about the guy she was seeing, only to be harassed for it. N said that the experience has made her more cautious, not just about dating, but also about trusting what she thought was a safe space online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>N: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I first started using the app, yeah because it was anonymous, I did feel safe and just knowing I can share whatever information I wanted without people knowing that it was me. But after the situation that happened, the world is just a lot smaller than you think and people are a lot more connected than you’d think. I just realized that anything you put out there, is there’s always going to be a chance of it potentially coming back, whether it be good, bad, or whatever. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, maybe keep the whisper networks offline, or at least confined to a very, very trusted group chat. Let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Hambrick. Close All Tabs’ Producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor. Additional editing by Chris Hambrick and Jen Chien who is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Audio engineering by Brendan Willard and Brian Douglas. Original music, including our theme song and credits by Chris Egusa. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dust Silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>Three \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/university-of-california\">University of California\u003c/a> scientists were awarded the 2025 Nobel Prize in physics for a series of experiments they conducted in the 1980s that laid the groundwork for modern quantum computing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>John Clarke of UC Berkeley and Michel H. Devoret and John M. Martinis of UC Santa Barbara were honored Tuesday for their work demonstrating some of the “bizarre” — and traditionally microscopic — properties of the quantum world at the macroscopic level for the first time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It had never occurred to me in any way that this might be the basis of a Nobel Prize,” Clarke, who served as the principal of the group, said while \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9FUkAis62s&t=1151s\">accepting the prize\u003c/a> on the scientists’ behalf. “To put it mildly, it was the surprise of my life.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Clarke, who has been a part of Berkeley’s physics faculty since 1969, led multiple efforts to try to demonstrate quantum tunneling — the phenomenon that some particles can move through barriers classical physics would assume can’t be breached — at a macro level in the 1980s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Scientists had previously proved that while a ball thrown against a wall, for example, always bounces back, a single particle thrown against an equivalent barrier in its microscopic world sometimes passes through.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12059002\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12059002\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/NobelPrizePhysicsAP1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/NobelPrizePhysicsAP1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/NobelPrizePhysicsAP1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/NobelPrizePhysicsAP1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">John Martinis stands with his wife Jean in their living room after winning the Nobel Prize in Physics for his work on quantum tunneling on Tuesday, Oct. 7, 2025, in Santa Barbara, California. \u003ccite>(Mark J. Terrill/AP Photo)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In 1984 and 1985, Clarke, along with Martinis, who was a graduate student at the time, and Devoret, then a postdoctoral fellow, developed a model that showed the phenomenon in a way visible to the naked eye.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They designed an electrical circuit featuring two semiconductors that was able to conduct an electrical current without electrical resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The system [they created] shows its quantum character by using tunnelling to escape the zero-voltage state, generating an electrical voltage,” the Nobel committee wrote about the work.[aside postID=science_1998619 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2025/09/20250925_MARSSATELLITE_GC-3-KQED.jpg']The committee explained that quantum mechanics can be challenging to study, since it describes properties that are significant on the scale of single particles, which are sometimes smaller than can be seen using an optical microscope.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The scientists’ demonstration of the strange quantum tunneling process at a more visible scale “laid the foundation for exploring macroscopic quantum physics in superconducting circuits,” the Nobel committee wrote in its announcement of the award on Tuesday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A major question in physics is the maximum size of a system that can demonstrate quantum mechanical effects,” the announcement said. “This year’s Nobel Prize laureates conducted experiments with an electrical circuit in which they demonstrated both quantum mechanical tunnelling and quantised energy levels in a system big enough to be held in the hand.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the committee, the scientists’ experiments provided opportunities for further developments in quantum technology, including in quantum cryptography, which is a method of data encryption and secure communication, and quantum computers and sensors, which can perform calculations that are impossible on traditional computers and have been \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3U1NDUiwSA&t=259s\">used to make advances\u003c/a> in artificial intelligence, cybersecurity and new drug design.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Olle Eriksson, the chair of the Nobel Committee for Physics, called their work “enormously useful, as quantum mechanics is the foundation of all digital technology.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Three \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/university-of-california\">University of California\u003c/a> scientists were awarded the 2025 Nobel Prize in physics for a series of experiments they conducted in the 1980s that laid the groundwork for modern quantum computing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>John Clarke of UC Berkeley and Michel H. Devoret and John M. Martinis of UC Santa Barbara were honored Tuesday for their work demonstrating some of the “bizarre” — and traditionally microscopic — properties of the quantum world at the macroscopic level for the first time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It had never occurred to me in any way that this might be the basis of a Nobel Prize,” Clarke, who served as the principal of the group, said while \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9FUkAis62s&t=1151s\">accepting the prize\u003c/a> on the scientists’ behalf. “To put it mildly, it was the surprise of my life.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Clarke, who has been a part of Berkeley’s physics faculty since 1969, led multiple efforts to try to demonstrate quantum tunneling — the phenomenon that some particles can move through barriers classical physics would assume can’t be breached — at a macro level in the 1980s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Scientists had previously proved that while a ball thrown against a wall, for example, always bounces back, a single particle thrown against an equivalent barrier in its microscopic world sometimes passes through.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12059002\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12059002\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/NobelPrizePhysicsAP1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/NobelPrizePhysicsAP1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/NobelPrizePhysicsAP1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/NobelPrizePhysicsAP1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">John Martinis stands with his wife Jean in their living room after winning the Nobel Prize in Physics for his work on quantum tunneling on Tuesday, Oct. 7, 2025, in Santa Barbara, California. \u003ccite>(Mark J. Terrill/AP Photo)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In 1984 and 1985, Clarke, along with Martinis, who was a graduate student at the time, and Devoret, then a postdoctoral fellow, developed a model that showed the phenomenon in a way visible to the naked eye.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They designed an electrical circuit featuring two semiconductors that was able to conduct an electrical current without electrical resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The system [they created] shows its quantum character by using tunnelling to escape the zero-voltage state, generating an electrical voltage,” the Nobel committee wrote about the work.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>The committee explained that quantum mechanics can be challenging to study, since it describes properties that are significant on the scale of single particles, which are sometimes smaller than can be seen using an optical microscope.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The scientists’ demonstration of the strange quantum tunneling process at a more visible scale “laid the foundation for exploring macroscopic quantum physics in superconducting circuits,” the Nobel committee wrote in its announcement of the award on Tuesday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A major question in physics is the maximum size of a system that can demonstrate quantum mechanical effects,” the announcement said. “This year’s Nobel Prize laureates conducted experiments with an electrical circuit in which they demonstrated both quantum mechanical tunnelling and quantised energy levels in a system big enough to be held in the hand.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the committee, the scientists’ experiments provided opportunities for further developments in quantum technology, including in quantum cryptography, which is a method of data encryption and secure communication, and quantum computers and sensors, which can perform calculations that are impossible on traditional computers and have been \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3U1NDUiwSA&t=259s\">used to make advances\u003c/a> in artificial intelligence, cybersecurity and new drug design.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Olle Eriksson, the chair of the Nobel Committee for Physics, called their work “enormously useful, as quantum mechanics is the foundation of all digital technology.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Clacky,” “Poppy,” and “Thocky” may sound like the latest cereal elves, but they’re actually terms to describe the sounds of typing on a mechanical keyboard. What started as a niche hobby blew up during the pandemic, with a huge influx of creators posting tutorials, reviews, and soothing ASMR videos on social media. Many hobbyists are so enthusiastic about achieving the perfect sound, feel and response from their personal keyboards that they design and build their own, sometimes spending hundreds of dollars on custom parts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lately though, the industry has been hitting some serious roadblocks. In this episode Morgan examines how the mechanical keyboard craze took off, and why it may now be starting to fade. We’ll hear from creators about how tariffs and the end of the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">de minimis\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> rule are affecting everyone — from consumers to indie designers, to content creators. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC7054753045\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/enomooshikey/?hl=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Frank Lee\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, keyboard streamer and organizer of KeebLife\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/c/hipyotech\">Hipyo Tech\u003c/a>, YouTube creator\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/@SwitchandClickOfficial\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Betty Van\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, YouTube creator\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading/listening: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/2020/1/29/21112581/taeha-types-mechanical-keyboards-custom-twitch-tfue-fortnite-streaming\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Twitch streamer behind Tfue’s custom $3,500 mechanical keyboard \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Nick Statt, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/04/looming-tariffs-are-making-it-extra-hard-to-be-a-tech-geek/\">Looming tariffs are making it extra hard to be a tech geek \u003c/a>— Scharon Harding, \u003ci>Ars Technica\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Kaylee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Each of these are all linear switches, but this one has the deepest sound, my cat keyboard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Kaylee, a mechanical keyboard builder and content creator who also goes by Sad Girl Types. She’s showing me one of her favorite builds, a cat-themed keyboard complete with a fuzzy calico cover. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kaylee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It has fur on it, so you can pet it. It is the color of a calico cat, and all of the keycaps are also calico colored. Yeah, that’s it. It’s a cat keyboard.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I recently spent my Saturday afternoon wandering around a crowded convention hall ballroom, tapping and typing on so many keyboards that I lost count. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Typing sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was Keeb Life, an annual meetup for custom mechanical keyboard enthusiasts. On the edges of the ballroom, vendors sold unique keycaps and switches and other keyboard accessories. In the center of the room were rows and rows of folding tables, where attendees showed off their own custom builds. Each keyboard was accompanied by a card labeled with the builder’s Discord username and the details of their keyboard, literally down to each individual part. The cards also noted whether attendees were allowed to touch and pick up the keyboard. Each board was unique, and I tried almost all of them. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In case you haven’t noticed, Close All Tabs has a running bit about mechanical keyboards. At the end of each episode, we credit the keyboards that we use whenever we open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan in clips from previous episodes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white EpoMaker High 75 keyboard….white and blue Epo-Maker Aula F99 keyboard…Gateron Milky Yellow Pro V2 switches.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: We have fun here. The mechanical keyboard hobby took off in the mainstream fairly recently. From the satisfying ASMR typing videos to lull you to sleep, to the enviable color-coordinated custom builds all over Instagram, to the endless budget keyboard reviews that flood your For You page, mechanical keyboards are the content gift that keeps on giving. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve been in a Keeb renaissance between the content and the sheer amount of affordable keyboard products on the market. But the mechanical keyboard market is changing, which means the whole hobby is changing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, we’re jumping into the world of mechanical keyboards. Where did this hobby come from? Why are people so into it anyway? And what’s up with the tariffs? Buckle up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know how this goes. Let’s open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How to build a mechanical keyboard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, my name is Wonho Frank Lee and I love custom mechanical keyboards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My friend Frank often jokes that his photography career funds his mechanical keyboard hobby. He’s designed and built dozens of keyboards for his friends, for his fellow enthusiasts that he met online, and of course, for himself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m ashamed to say this, but I have over 30 keyboards. So it’s not just about… \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I only have four, so…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey\u003c/span>\u003cb>, \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Four is great! People talk about, like, why are we spending so much money on the keyboard? And I just usually tell them, like how much of your day do you really sit in front of the computer and use your keyboard? Like how much time are you actually typing? Do you think you spend more time on your keyboard or in your car? If you’re going to spend a lot of time on it, might as well make it fun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Frank also organizes KeebLife, the annual mechanical keyboard meetup I went to. And the rest of the year, he streams his builds on Twitch and runs Keeblife’s Discord server. His fellow enthusiasts have been called keebeheads, mechies, keebers, typebeasts, mechheads, keyaboos, and many, many more names. No matter what they’re called, this hobby is very community oriented. People turn to each other for advice, reviews, and to go in on group buys. Those are like mini Kickstarters for small batches of products. People pay up front, and sometimes it can take more than six months of manufacturing and shipping before they receive it. But for a lot of Keebheads, the exclusivity of getting a limited edition small batch keyboard makes the wait worth it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s also the big keyboard subreddit, r/MechanicalKeyboards, with more than 1.3 million members. And then more niche ones, like r/keebgirlies, r/BudgetKeebs, and the myriad of mechanical keyboard subreddits for specific countries. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Frank, for one, got into it in 2020 through a friend who is also a keyboard builder. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He was really into custom keyboards. He was getting into it too at the time. I kind of scoffed at it, like, why would you want to spend so much money on a keyboard? Like, I got a keyboard that works, that’s fine. But as I was part of his Discord server, and he was just always talking about keyboards with other people, I was like, ooh, okay, that kind of cool. Maybe I’ll get something. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He bought a very basic secondhand keyboard. Nothing special, but he customized it with some cheap knockoff Star Wars themed keycaps. The friend who introduced him to keyboards helped him add a few other custom parts. And that’s when Frank got really into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Seeing how he built it, how he soldered everything, it really got me like, excited. I’m like, oh my god, that’s kind of cool. The whole process of it was more exciting than the keyboard itself at one point. And as someone who loves Lego, uh, there was like a, oh wow, this is another level. Like, you can put things together. You just feel very accomplished afterwards. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mechanical keyboards are known for their onomatopoeia labels, like the very popular creamy boards. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The deeper, reverberating thocky. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The bright, bouncy poppy. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And even lighter, staccato clicky. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the loud, ostentatious clacky. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If they all sounded the same to you, you might just not be deep enough into the hobby yet. But Frank fell in love with the idea of chasing these sounds. He had a small following on Twitch from building Legos on stream during quarantine. So when Frank built his first ever mechanical keyboard from scratch, he did it over the course of a four hour live stream. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I was also getting a lot of help from the community members who were in the chat too. But once I was done, when I was doing the typing on stream, man…felt good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since then, Frank has built countless custom mechanical keyboards and he gave me a quick keyboard 101. There are a lot of components in a keyboard, all of which can affect the final sound and feel of the board. But let’s hit the highlights. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s start with the size: full boards have 104 keys, including a number pad on the side. But most people don’t use that, so they opt for smaller sizes. 75% boards are especially popular since they drop the number pad and a few other lesser used keys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The benefit of this is you get more desk space. Now, why is that important? Well, gamers like to move their mouse quite a lot. And the keyboard layout gets even smaller than that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a 60% board which drops the arrow keys. Then they get smaller and even more compact. Sometimes to the point of absurdity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve even seen like 10%, which is almost a joke. But some people kind of use it as a challenge, which is also kind of a fun thing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keycaps are usually the first thing you notice about a keyboard. A lot of the builder’s personality shines through the keycaps, like the color combinations they use. The keycap profile or the way that it’s shaped and angled toward the typer also affects how comfortable the board is to use. At the heart of the board are the switches, the mechanical, spring-loaded part that tells your computer that you just pressed a key. The most popular ones are called linear. They’re smooth and ideal for really fast typing. Tactile switches require some more force to press, but a lot of people find that feedback satisfying. Then there’s Frank’s favorite: clicky. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here we go. I’m going to click it for you guys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like higher pitch. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It clicks higher pitch. And the difference between this switch and, for example, the MX Blue is MX Blue only clicks when you press it down. This one clicks both way up and down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clicking sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So how did this hobby get so big in the first place? That’s a new tab, but we’ll save opening that for after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So when did mechanical keyboards become such a thing? Time for a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The golden age of keyboard content. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The mechanical keyboard hobby would not be as popular as it is today without YouTube. So to guide us through this part of the deep dive is a YouTuber who has a lot of keyboards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Hipyo Tech. I am a keyboard content creator and general tech creator, YouTuber, whatever you want to call it. I’ve spent the last five years making videos and making custom keyboards and teaching the whole entire world how they could get into this crazy weird niche of a hobby. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK, so I am going to ask you a bit of a personal question, so I hope you’re ready. How many keyboards do you have? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dang! Um, right now? Probably about 200. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my God!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But that’s because like at the end of last year, I got rid of about 80. So…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this is you paring down? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this is me pretty paired down, but usually five to six keyboards end up at my door. Like you can see there’s a pile of keyboards behind me in my video. These just arrived this week. And yeah, it’s it’s almost a nightmare, but really cool. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Building and modifying mechanical keyboards was once a relatively niche hobby. In the 1990s tech companies had phased out mechanical keyboards and rolled out cheaper, sleeker versions. Those had a squishy rubber dome under each key instead of springs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The original key heads sought to recreate the experience of using vintage keyboards. By the early 2000s, mechanical keyboard parts hit the markets and enthusiasts got really into experimenting with different materials to optimize the sound. Then in the 2010s, gaming companies rolled out pre-built mechanical keyboards, which were designed for more satisfying tactile feedback while furiously gaming. Keyboard hobbyists started going in on group buys together. Mechanical keyboards gained popularity as people flocked to blogs and then reddit to trade notes. Creators built a steady audience on YouTube and Twitch, where they documented their custom builds. Typing ASMR became a thriving genre of content. But it was pricey.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Back then, all the parts needed for a custom mechanical keyboard, from the circuitry to the switches, could cost around $600. And that didn’t even include the labor costs involved in putting it together. The hobby wasn’t exactly mainstream until five years ago. And then it blew up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TaehaTypes in Clip] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the typing test of Tfue’s multi-thousand dollar keyboard. [Typing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In January 2020, YouTuber TaehaTypes streams the process of building a custom luxury mechanical keyboard for Tfue, a Fortnite streamer. The keyboard was housed in an iridescent aluminum and stainless steel frame that flashed fuchsia and cerulean and electric purple. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the stream, Taeha donned a delicate set of cloth gloves to unbox the casing from the manufacturer’s packaging. He meticulously lubed components with a thin paintbrush. Then with tranquil jazz playing in the background, he pulled out slender, angled tweezers and talked viewers through the process of preparing the circuit board. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TaehaTypes in Clip] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m going across the PCB and I am essentially closing the loop between the switch. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Watching the precision involved in building the board was mesmerizing. And then Taeha posted an ASMR video featuring him typing on the board. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing Sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of people had never heard anything like it. Frank Lee, who we heard from earlier, said that was the moment that mechanical keyboards went mainstream. And Hipyo pointed out that Taeha’s glitzy keyboard introduced a whole new audience to the hobby. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He was the spark where it was like, he had started to get big at the perfect point to just pull everybody into the hobby. He was almost everybody’s like, first, like, oh, whoa, keyboards are cool kind of moment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Betty Van, another keyboard YouTuber who runs a channel, Switch and Click, also pointed to that same moment in internet history\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Betty Van: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With the Fortnite players learning about that keyboard and then 60% keyboards becoming more popular with gamers, too like that started this big thing of like keyboards for gamers. But also people started working from home, so keyboards for office people. It’s like two groups at once that it’s just really big. It’s like an explosion. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And here’s Hipyo again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Suddenly, everybody was like, wait, you can have a keyboard that sounds good, started funneling into the hobby, which kind of boosted up all of these burgeoning creators who are just kind of into this weird niche and making videos. So 2021, there was tons of creators that got the YouTube algorithm rocket, we were all making videos together. It was insane. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It seems like when you first got into it in 2020, a lot of the hobby was more about tinkering, customizing, and it seems now a lot more of it is like collecting. Was it always that way or is it, is that relatively new? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s kind of shifted a little bit more consumer-y, which is kind of a bummer because the tinkering was the funnest aspect of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Manufacturers in China noticed the uptick in mechanical keyboard interest and started to produce pre-built keyboards designed and assembled en masse in-house. So instead of spending upwards of $700 on custom parts to build their own, buyers could now grab a decent one off the shelf for $200. All they had to do was plug it in. Here’s Frank again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That movement really changed everything since then, in my opinion. The custom keyboard hobby that I knew and I got into has shrunk quite a bit in a sense because of so many keyboards that are coming in now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And Hippio said this shift also affected the kind of content people want to watch. When he started out on YouTube in 2020, his videos ranged from in-depth switch reviews to building keyboards with wacky modifications. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Hipyo Tech in clip] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re filling this bad boy with some Play-Doh, which I don’t necessarily recommend, but I felt like doing it. So here we are. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But now, people aren’t as interested in building a keyboard from scratch. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What made keyboards so interesting as a hobby is that they were fundamentally flawed. Like, people hadn’t quite figured out how to make the aluminum cases not sound really pingy and terrible, or they hadn’t figured out factory lubrication on switches that made them feel really smooth and buttery. So you kind of had to do all that stuff yourself, where it’s like people had figured out, hey, if I take this switch apart and I spend four hours lubing a whole batch of switches, my keyboard will sound and feel better. That was like a really great way to get you in like engaging in the hobby and tinkering with like, oh, maybe this lube will feel different. Or maybe if I swap this spring out, my switch will feel differently. And most of that’s been solved now at like, the production level, where you could buy a keyboard for 100 bucks nowadays that would give you a better experience than a keyboard that might have cost you 400 bucks back in 2020. It’s like, it’s almost solved in a weird way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. I mean, obviously, the tinkering aspect is a huge part of your content and also your creator origin story. How do you feel about that part of the hobby becoming less popular? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s really bittersweet. Like, I mean, you spend five years screaming at brands to make better keyboards and you’re tinkering with keyboards to make them better. And then suddenly they’re all listening, which means that you don’t need to tinker with keyboards. It like, it’s everything that I was asking for brands are now doing like, even Asus and Razer and Corsair, like all of these huge gaming brands where I’m like talking to their teams behind the scenes. You guys, if you literally just got one machine that could lubricate your switches, they’d be so much better. And they’re like, oh, no, it’s not, there’s no demand. And suddenly they’re doing it now. It’s like, wait, I hurt myself. Like, there’s still people out there that are really passionately modding keyboards. But for the vast majority of people now, there’s like almost no point. So it’s really bittersweet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Betty has actually shifted the content of her channel entirely. One of the main reasons is this dip in custom keyboard popularity. She still makes keyboard videos, but the videos that do well are typically reviews of pre-built budget keyboards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Betty Van: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like economically, there’s been less views on just specific keyboard content. Like before, if some company released a keyboard and we talked about it, it would get more views and more people would buy it or there’d be more interest in the product. But nowadays, I think everyone already has a good enough keyboard that they’re not necessarily interested in looking for their next upgrade. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">there’s another factor that complicates just about everything in the hobby. It’s another reason Betty’s team has switched to more general tech content. Tariffs. One more tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is de minimis? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Back in April, following what President Trump dubbed Liberation Day, all imports into the US were slapped with a minimum 10% tariff. It’s been months of back and forth with other countries of retaliatory fees and tenuous deals and debates over the legality of all of this. But throughout it all, there was still the de minimis exemption. That’s a special rule, which said that shipments valued under a certain amount could enter the US without tariffs or much oversight. Until recently, that threshold was $800. But that rule ended August 29th of this year, which means that buying anything from abroad just got a lot more expensive. And it’s consumers and business owners taking the hit. Because of the uncertainty, many companies paused all shipping to the U.S. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At KeebLife, I talked to a keyboard enthusiast who goes by Jazzzster. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jazzzster\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was actually visiting China recently. I actually asked the person that was designing the board…I was like, can I pick up this keyboard, since I’m here? I know that you’re not shipping it out to people in the US, but can you help me have the keyboard now?\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wait, so you bought, you like preordered it in the U.S. and then… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jazzzster\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then I was, like, I think it’s going to be done being manufactured about right now, right? I’m luckily here at the same time. Can I pick it up? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The keyboard brand Osume also suspended U.S. orders in February. The company is based in Canada and warned customers that existing shipments could be hit with an additional 10 to 35 percent tariff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clement Cheung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was basically almost impossible to have our products delivered from Canada to the States. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Clement Cheung, Osume’s revenue analyst. In August, the company opened a special U.S. based warehouse and resumed shipping to American customers. The caveat? They had to raise prices. A keyboard that used to be $170 is now $220. Although the U.S. Warehouse has worked out so far, Clement said moving manufacturing from China to the U.S. just to avoid tariffs would be very unrealistic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clement Cheung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">China has years of experience building and manufacturing keycaps in a really specific environment. And that environment changes everything about a keyboard: the sound, the quality, as well as the longevity. Compared to if we were to do it in the States, to replicate that consistency and quality is very difficult. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Newbies, custom DIYers, and the vast majority of mechanical keyboard enthusiasts still rely on products made in China. Now, it’s further complicated by the end of de minimis. Those extra fees can make a reasonably priced purchase suddenly unaffordable. Some consumers have paid more in tariffs than what they paid for the item itself. It’s really affecting independent designers, like Frank, who designed a custom keyboard as a passion project. He sourced a vendor in China to help with manufacturing all the parts, set up a group buy, and found a few other enthusiasts to go in on it. The tariff announcement came in just before they started production. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For some people, $300 for this particular keyboard sounded really good value. But if they end up having to pay 400 bucks, it’s not really a good value anymore. So who takes the hit in that case, you know? And in a smaller group buy, like me, where I literally have just over 100 units sold, that impact is even bigger. Because I wasn’t doing this to make money to begin with. If I get hit with this, I don’t have a lot of buffer to pay for it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some small batch keyboards don’t even make it to the market, or they’re hit with long delays, like one brand that Betty recently tried to work with. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Betty Van: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was this one moment where we were going to cover a keyboard that was going to launch on Kickstarter. And the brand had told us, like, this is going to release on this date. So we scheduled our video like, right before the date that it would launch. But it didn’t launch because the tariffs were announced and they were like, we’re going to push back the launch. But we released the video anyways, and that video didn’t do as well, mostly because, well, no one could buy the keyboard, for one. So it was like a really unquestionable time in this space. So like there’s been internal discussions on our team about like, hey, we need to branch out. Like we need to experiment with our content to find something else that’s going to hit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hipyo said these\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">unpredictable extra fees have been devastating for the hobby, which was built on group buys and supporting other enthusiasts’ creativity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The de minimis exemption allowed a lot of these small brands to start up. You could buy a keyboard. It would ship to you. No import tariffs. So great! What a novel idea. And now I’ve heard from, I talked to a couple big companies that I worked with before, like, this interview, just to see, like, how is this affecting you guys? It was way worse than I thought.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How so? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, they’re having so many customers just deny packages and return packages because the customer doesn’t know what tariffs they’re going to be paying. The brand doesn’t how much in tariffs the customers are going to be paying. There’s some people getting hit with a $150 tariffs on a $100 keyboard order. Like that…that doesn’t make any sense! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. How is it affecting creators like yourself specifically? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For me this year, like I’ve had many, many sponsors tell me, like, hey, we just don’t have the budget for videos anymore because we had to spend all of our budget on paying import taxes to start up U.S. Warehouses because a lot of these companies are like ‘we have to start a U. S. Warehouse because nobody’s going to buy our products and pay these tariffs.’ And there’s so many unknowns floating around. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But on top of that, I mean, I personally paid, I think over three thousand dollars in tariffs this year …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …just from brands sending me unsolicited keyboards. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t know it’s coming, but then I get hit with, ‘oh, hey, DHL says you have to pay $150 to get this keyboard’…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and they’re like declaring real…yeah. So for me it’s I mean, it’s business expense, whatever. But yeah, it it’s real. It’s very real. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, with the current economic climate, with a state of tariffs, like with what consumers are looking for now, like, is that affecting your content and the kind of videos you’re making? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, well, I mean, I can tell you from my personal experience, like, if I make a video on a keyboard that’s more than $100, way less interest than if it’s a budget focused keyboard, because in general, consumers are just feeling really, really strained right now. And that’s ignoring tariffs. Like, that’s just focusing on stuff from Amazon because in general, now somebody doesn’t want to buy a keyboard from China if it means that they’re going to get hit with these tariffs. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s truly a nightmare for so many small businesses. Like, it’s insane. It’s made it so small businesses can’t experiment very much because you have to just really play it safe. Like we used to experiment by having a ton of different key cap sets and a ton of different desk mats, and it didn’t matter as much what did great because like, everything kept the boat floating. But when the stakes are like so much higher now, it’s reducing innovation. It’s adding so much more uncertainty. And like there’s been a couple other keyboard companies that are like, ‘we might just pull out like we might just stop making keyboards.’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I can’t say those brands. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because everything is moving toward pre-built and all that and like, there’s less incentive to innovate. Do you think people will go back to that kind of mentality of tinkering and of customizing because the companies aren’t willing to take risks anymore? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I really hope so. Like, I hope it’s kind of cyclical where it’s like people will go back to just like, having a little bit less options and kind of enjoying the craft of it more because building keyboards is still so fun. And the idea of customizing a tool that you use every day is so fulfilling. But like, when all of the economic forces are kind of making you buy a pre-built keyboard, it’s, you don’t really have a choice. So I really do hope that it moves that way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the custom keyboard world, people are always searching for their endgame: the keyboard that’s so perfect, so tailored to their specific preferences that they’ll never have to buy or build another keyboard again. It’s a constant process of trial and error and experimenting with different modifications. A lot of hobbyists have put that endgame hunt on hold thanks to the tariffs and uncertainty of trade relations. Frank, for one, is over the idea of chasing an endgame. For now, he’s finding joy in the collection that he already has. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The beauty of custom is that you can have so many different kinds of things, not just one thing that you just like. And I love that. So I have a bunch of different layouts, different colors and keycaps. I have different switches and typing feels on all my keyboards. I have a rotation. I go through every day, I kind of change up, that’s like, one of my rituals. Like before I get to my computer, I bring out another keyboard. Oh, yeah, I feel like using this. There’s really no endgame for me. I would say my goal is to always have a collection that I am very happy with. And I’m kind of happy with that right now. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whether your keeb is a luxury custom build or a pre-built budget find, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa and edited by Chris Hambrick. Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our senior editor. Additional editing by Chris Hambrick and Jen Chien, who is KQED’s director of podcasts. Original music, including our theme song and credits, by Chris Egusa. Sound design by Chris Egusa, additional music by APM, audio engineering by Brendan Willard and Brian Douglas. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor in chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. Keyboard sounds in this episode were submitted by Frank Lee, including his Geonwerks F1-K Bingsu Edition, DNworks Ryujin and HHHH Salamander PC keyboards. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I know it’s a podcast cliche, but it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to the show. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Clacky,” “Poppy,” and “Thocky” may sound like the latest cereal elves, but they’re actually terms to describe the sounds of typing on a mechanical keyboard. What started as a niche hobby blew up during the pandemic, with a huge influx of creators posting tutorials, reviews, and soothing ASMR videos on social media. Many hobbyists are so enthusiastic about achieving the perfect sound, feel and response from their personal keyboards that they design and build their own, sometimes spending hundreds of dollars on custom parts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lately though, the industry has been hitting some serious roadblocks. In this episode Morgan examines how the mechanical keyboard craze took off, and why it may now be starting to fade. We’ll hear from creators about how tariffs and the end of the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">de minimis\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> rule are affecting everyone — from consumers to indie designers, to content creators. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC7054753045\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/enomooshikey/?hl=en\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Frank Lee\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, keyboard streamer and organizer of KeebLife\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/c/hipyotech\">Hipyo Tech\u003c/a>, YouTube creator\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/@SwitchandClickOfficial\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Betty Van\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, YouTube creator\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading/listening: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/2020/1/29/21112581/taeha-types-mechanical-keyboards-custom-twitch-tfue-fortnite-streaming\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Twitch streamer behind Tfue’s custom $3,500 mechanical keyboard \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Nick Statt, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/04/looming-tariffs-are-making-it-extra-hard-to-be-a-tech-geek/\">Looming tariffs are making it extra hard to be a tech geek \u003c/a>— Scharon Harding, \u003ci>Ars Technica\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Kaylee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Each of these are all linear switches, but this one has the deepest sound, my cat keyboard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Kaylee, a mechanical keyboard builder and content creator who also goes by Sad Girl Types. She’s showing me one of her favorite builds, a cat-themed keyboard complete with a fuzzy calico cover. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kaylee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It has fur on it, so you can pet it. It is the color of a calico cat, and all of the keycaps are also calico colored. Yeah, that’s it. It’s a cat keyboard.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I recently spent my Saturday afternoon wandering around a crowded convention hall ballroom, tapping and typing on so many keyboards that I lost count. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Typing sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was Keeb Life, an annual meetup for custom mechanical keyboard enthusiasts. On the edges of the ballroom, vendors sold unique keycaps and switches and other keyboard accessories. In the center of the room were rows and rows of folding tables, where attendees showed off their own custom builds. Each keyboard was accompanied by a card labeled with the builder’s Discord username and the details of their keyboard, literally down to each individual part. The cards also noted whether attendees were allowed to touch and pick up the keyboard. Each board was unique, and I tried almost all of them. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In case you haven’t noticed, Close All Tabs has a running bit about mechanical keyboards. At the end of each episode, we credit the keyboards that we use whenever we open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan in clips from previous episodes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran and recorded on his white EpoMaker High 75 keyboard….white and blue Epo-Maker Aula F99 keyboard…Gateron Milky Yellow Pro V2 switches.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: We have fun here. The mechanical keyboard hobby took off in the mainstream fairly recently. From the satisfying ASMR typing videos to lull you to sleep, to the enviable color-coordinated custom builds all over Instagram, to the endless budget keyboard reviews that flood your For You page, mechanical keyboards are the content gift that keeps on giving. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve been in a Keeb renaissance between the content and the sheer amount of affordable keyboard products on the market. But the mechanical keyboard market is changing, which means the whole hobby is changing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, we’re jumping into the world of mechanical keyboards. Where did this hobby come from? Why are people so into it anyway? And what’s up with the tariffs? Buckle up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know how this goes. Let’s open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How to build a mechanical keyboard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, my name is Wonho Frank Lee and I love custom mechanical keyboards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My friend Frank often jokes that his photography career funds his mechanical keyboard hobby. He’s designed and built dozens of keyboards for his friends, for his fellow enthusiasts that he met online, and of course, for himself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m ashamed to say this, but I have over 30 keyboards. So it’s not just about… \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I only have four, so…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey\u003c/span>\u003cb>, \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Four is great! People talk about, like, why are we spending so much money on the keyboard? And I just usually tell them, like how much of your day do you really sit in front of the computer and use your keyboard? Like how much time are you actually typing? Do you think you spend more time on your keyboard or in your car? If you’re going to spend a lot of time on it, might as well make it fun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Frank also organizes KeebLife, the annual mechanical keyboard meetup I went to. And the rest of the year, he streams his builds on Twitch and runs Keeblife’s Discord server. His fellow enthusiasts have been called keebeheads, mechies, keebers, typebeasts, mechheads, keyaboos, and many, many more names. No matter what they’re called, this hobby is very community oriented. People turn to each other for advice, reviews, and to go in on group buys. Those are like mini Kickstarters for small batches of products. People pay up front, and sometimes it can take more than six months of manufacturing and shipping before they receive it. But for a lot of Keebheads, the exclusivity of getting a limited edition small batch keyboard makes the wait worth it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s also the big keyboard subreddit, r/MechanicalKeyboards, with more than 1.3 million members. And then more niche ones, like r/keebgirlies, r/BudgetKeebs, and the myriad of mechanical keyboard subreddits for specific countries. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Frank, for one, got into it in 2020 through a friend who is also a keyboard builder. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He was really into custom keyboards. He was getting into it too at the time. I kind of scoffed at it, like, why would you want to spend so much money on a keyboard? Like, I got a keyboard that works, that’s fine. But as I was part of his Discord server, and he was just always talking about keyboards with other people, I was like, ooh, okay, that kind of cool. Maybe I’ll get something. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He bought a very basic secondhand keyboard. Nothing special, but he customized it with some cheap knockoff Star Wars themed keycaps. The friend who introduced him to keyboards helped him add a few other custom parts. And that’s when Frank got really into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Seeing how he built it, how he soldered everything, it really got me like, excited. I’m like, oh my god, that’s kind of cool. The whole process of it was more exciting than the keyboard itself at one point. And as someone who loves Lego, uh, there was like a, oh wow, this is another level. Like, you can put things together. You just feel very accomplished afterwards. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mechanical keyboards are known for their onomatopoeia labels, like the very popular creamy boards. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The deeper, reverberating thocky. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The bright, bouncy poppy. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And even lighter, staccato clicky. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the loud, ostentatious clacky. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If they all sounded the same to you, you might just not be deep enough into the hobby yet. But Frank fell in love with the idea of chasing these sounds. He had a small following on Twitch from building Legos on stream during quarantine. So when Frank built his first ever mechanical keyboard from scratch, he did it over the course of a four hour live stream. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I was also getting a lot of help from the community members who were in the chat too. But once I was done, when I was doing the typing on stream, man…felt good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since then, Frank has built countless custom mechanical keyboards and he gave me a quick keyboard 101. There are a lot of components in a keyboard, all of which can affect the final sound and feel of the board. But let’s hit the highlights. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s start with the size: full boards have 104 keys, including a number pad on the side. But most people don’t use that, so they opt for smaller sizes. 75% boards are especially popular since they drop the number pad and a few other lesser used keys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The benefit of this is you get more desk space. Now, why is that important? Well, gamers like to move their mouse quite a lot. And the keyboard layout gets even smaller than that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a 60% board which drops the arrow keys. Then they get smaller and even more compact. Sometimes to the point of absurdity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve even seen like 10%, which is almost a joke. But some people kind of use it as a challenge, which is also kind of a fun thing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keycaps are usually the first thing you notice about a keyboard. A lot of the builder’s personality shines through the keycaps, like the color combinations they use. The keycap profile or the way that it’s shaped and angled toward the typer also affects how comfortable the board is to use. At the heart of the board are the switches, the mechanical, spring-loaded part that tells your computer that you just pressed a key. The most popular ones are called linear. They’re smooth and ideal for really fast typing. Tactile switches require some more force to press, but a lot of people find that feedback satisfying. Then there’s Frank’s favorite: clicky. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here we go. I’m going to click it for you guys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like higher pitch. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It clicks higher pitch. And the difference between this switch and, for example, the MX Blue is MX Blue only clicks when you press it down. This one clicks both way up and down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clicking sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So how did this hobby get so big in the first place? That’s a new tab, but we’ll save opening that for after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So when did mechanical keyboards become such a thing? Time for a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The golden age of keyboard content. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The mechanical keyboard hobby would not be as popular as it is today without YouTube. So to guide us through this part of the deep dive is a YouTuber who has a lot of keyboards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Hipyo Tech. I am a keyboard content creator and general tech creator, YouTuber, whatever you want to call it. I’ve spent the last five years making videos and making custom keyboards and teaching the whole entire world how they could get into this crazy weird niche of a hobby. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK, so I am going to ask you a bit of a personal question, so I hope you’re ready. How many keyboards do you have? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dang! Um, right now? Probably about 200. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my God!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But that’s because like at the end of last year, I got rid of about 80. So…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this is you paring down? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this is me pretty paired down, but usually five to six keyboards end up at my door. Like you can see there’s a pile of keyboards behind me in my video. These just arrived this week. And yeah, it’s it’s almost a nightmare, but really cool. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Building and modifying mechanical keyboards was once a relatively niche hobby. In the 1990s tech companies had phased out mechanical keyboards and rolled out cheaper, sleeker versions. Those had a squishy rubber dome under each key instead of springs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The original key heads sought to recreate the experience of using vintage keyboards. By the early 2000s, mechanical keyboard parts hit the markets and enthusiasts got really into experimenting with different materials to optimize the sound. Then in the 2010s, gaming companies rolled out pre-built mechanical keyboards, which were designed for more satisfying tactile feedback while furiously gaming. Keyboard hobbyists started going in on group buys together. Mechanical keyboards gained popularity as people flocked to blogs and then reddit to trade notes. Creators built a steady audience on YouTube and Twitch, where they documented their custom builds. Typing ASMR became a thriving genre of content. But it was pricey.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Back then, all the parts needed for a custom mechanical keyboard, from the circuitry to the switches, could cost around $600. And that didn’t even include the labor costs involved in putting it together. The hobby wasn’t exactly mainstream until five years ago. And then it blew up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TaehaTypes in Clip] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the typing test of Tfue’s multi-thousand dollar keyboard. [Typing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In January 2020, YouTuber TaehaTypes streams the process of building a custom luxury mechanical keyboard for Tfue, a Fortnite streamer. The keyboard was housed in an iridescent aluminum and stainless steel frame that flashed fuchsia and cerulean and electric purple. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the stream, Taeha donned a delicate set of cloth gloves to unbox the casing from the manufacturer’s packaging. He meticulously lubed components with a thin paintbrush. Then with tranquil jazz playing in the background, he pulled out slender, angled tweezers and talked viewers through the process of preparing the circuit board. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[TaehaTypes in Clip] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m going across the PCB and I am essentially closing the loop between the switch. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Watching the precision involved in building the board was mesmerizing. And then Taeha posted an ASMR video featuring him typing on the board. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing Sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of people had never heard anything like it. Frank Lee, who we heard from earlier, said that was the moment that mechanical keyboards went mainstream. And Hipyo pointed out that Taeha’s glitzy keyboard introduced a whole new audience to the hobby. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He was the spark where it was like, he had started to get big at the perfect point to just pull everybody into the hobby. He was almost everybody’s like, first, like, oh, whoa, keyboards are cool kind of moment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Betty Van, another keyboard YouTuber who runs a channel, Switch and Click, also pointed to that same moment in internet history\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Betty Van: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With the Fortnite players learning about that keyboard and then 60% keyboards becoming more popular with gamers, too like that started this big thing of like keyboards for gamers. But also people started working from home, so keyboards for office people. It’s like two groups at once that it’s just really big. It’s like an explosion. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And here’s Hipyo again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Suddenly, everybody was like, wait, you can have a keyboard that sounds good, started funneling into the hobby, which kind of boosted up all of these burgeoning creators who are just kind of into this weird niche and making videos. So 2021, there was tons of creators that got the YouTube algorithm rocket, we were all making videos together. It was insane. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It seems like when you first got into it in 2020, a lot of the hobby was more about tinkering, customizing, and it seems now a lot more of it is like collecting. Was it always that way or is it, is that relatively new? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s kind of shifted a little bit more consumer-y, which is kind of a bummer because the tinkering was the funnest aspect of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Manufacturers in China noticed the uptick in mechanical keyboard interest and started to produce pre-built keyboards designed and assembled en masse in-house. So instead of spending upwards of $700 on custom parts to build their own, buyers could now grab a decent one off the shelf for $200. All they had to do was plug it in. Here’s Frank again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That movement really changed everything since then, in my opinion. The custom keyboard hobby that I knew and I got into has shrunk quite a bit in a sense because of so many keyboards that are coming in now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And Hippio said this shift also affected the kind of content people want to watch. When he started out on YouTube in 2020, his videos ranged from in-depth switch reviews to building keyboards with wacky modifications. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Hipyo Tech in clip] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re filling this bad boy with some Play-Doh, which I don’t necessarily recommend, but I felt like doing it. So here we are. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But now, people aren’t as interested in building a keyboard from scratch. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What made keyboards so interesting as a hobby is that they were fundamentally flawed. Like, people hadn’t quite figured out how to make the aluminum cases not sound really pingy and terrible, or they hadn’t figured out factory lubrication on switches that made them feel really smooth and buttery. So you kind of had to do all that stuff yourself, where it’s like people had figured out, hey, if I take this switch apart and I spend four hours lubing a whole batch of switches, my keyboard will sound and feel better. That was like a really great way to get you in like engaging in the hobby and tinkering with like, oh, maybe this lube will feel different. Or maybe if I swap this spring out, my switch will feel differently. And most of that’s been solved now at like, the production level, where you could buy a keyboard for 100 bucks nowadays that would give you a better experience than a keyboard that might have cost you 400 bucks back in 2020. It’s like, it’s almost solved in a weird way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. I mean, obviously, the tinkering aspect is a huge part of your content and also your creator origin story. How do you feel about that part of the hobby becoming less popular? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s really bittersweet. Like, I mean, you spend five years screaming at brands to make better keyboards and you’re tinkering with keyboards to make them better. And then suddenly they’re all listening, which means that you don’t need to tinker with keyboards. It like, it’s everything that I was asking for brands are now doing like, even Asus and Razer and Corsair, like all of these huge gaming brands where I’m like talking to their teams behind the scenes. You guys, if you literally just got one machine that could lubricate your switches, they’d be so much better. And they’re like, oh, no, it’s not, there’s no demand. And suddenly they’re doing it now. It’s like, wait, I hurt myself. Like, there’s still people out there that are really passionately modding keyboards. But for the vast majority of people now, there’s like almost no point. So it’s really bittersweet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Betty has actually shifted the content of her channel entirely. One of the main reasons is this dip in custom keyboard popularity. She still makes keyboard videos, but the videos that do well are typically reviews of pre-built budget keyboards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Betty Van: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like economically, there’s been less views on just specific keyboard content. Like before, if some company released a keyboard and we talked about it, it would get more views and more people would buy it or there’d be more interest in the product. But nowadays, I think everyone already has a good enough keyboard that they’re not necessarily interested in looking for their next upgrade. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">there’s another factor that complicates just about everything in the hobby. It’s another reason Betty’s team has switched to more general tech content. Tariffs. One more tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Typing sounds] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is de minimis? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Back in April, following what President Trump dubbed Liberation Day, all imports into the US were slapped with a minimum 10% tariff. It’s been months of back and forth with other countries of retaliatory fees and tenuous deals and debates over the legality of all of this. But throughout it all, there was still the de minimis exemption. That’s a special rule, which said that shipments valued under a certain amount could enter the US without tariffs or much oversight. Until recently, that threshold was $800. But that rule ended August 29th of this year, which means that buying anything from abroad just got a lot more expensive. And it’s consumers and business owners taking the hit. Because of the uncertainty, many companies paused all shipping to the U.S. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At KeebLife, I talked to a keyboard enthusiast who goes by Jazzzster. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jazzzster\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was actually visiting China recently. I actually asked the person that was designing the board…I was like, can I pick up this keyboard, since I’m here? I know that you’re not shipping it out to people in the US, but can you help me have the keyboard now?\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wait, so you bought, you like preordered it in the U.S. and then… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jazzzster\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">:\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then I was, like, I think it’s going to be done being manufactured about right now, right? I’m luckily here at the same time. Can I pick it up? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The keyboard brand Osume also suspended U.S. orders in February. The company is based in Canada and warned customers that existing shipments could be hit with an additional 10 to 35 percent tariff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clement Cheung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was basically almost impossible to have our products delivered from Canada to the States. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Clement Cheung, Osume’s revenue analyst. In August, the company opened a special U.S. based warehouse and resumed shipping to American customers. The caveat? They had to raise prices. A keyboard that used to be $170 is now $220. Although the U.S. Warehouse has worked out so far, Clement said moving manufacturing from China to the U.S. just to avoid tariffs would be very unrealistic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clement Cheung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">China has years of experience building and manufacturing keycaps in a really specific environment. And that environment changes everything about a keyboard: the sound, the quality, as well as the longevity. Compared to if we were to do it in the States, to replicate that consistency and quality is very difficult. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Newbies, custom DIYers, and the vast majority of mechanical keyboard enthusiasts still rely on products made in China. Now, it’s further complicated by the end of de minimis. Those extra fees can make a reasonably priced purchase suddenly unaffordable. Some consumers have paid more in tariffs than what they paid for the item itself. It’s really affecting independent designers, like Frank, who designed a custom keyboard as a passion project. He sourced a vendor in China to help with manufacturing all the parts, set up a group buy, and found a few other enthusiasts to go in on it. The tariff announcement came in just before they started production. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For some people, $300 for this particular keyboard sounded really good value. But if they end up having to pay 400 bucks, it’s not really a good value anymore. So who takes the hit in that case, you know? And in a smaller group buy, like me, where I literally have just over 100 units sold, that impact is even bigger. Because I wasn’t doing this to make money to begin with. If I get hit with this, I don’t have a lot of buffer to pay for it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some small batch keyboards don’t even make it to the market, or they’re hit with long delays, like one brand that Betty recently tried to work with. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Betty Van: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was this one moment where we were going to cover a keyboard that was going to launch on Kickstarter. And the brand had told us, like, this is going to release on this date. So we scheduled our video like, right before the date that it would launch. But it didn’t launch because the tariffs were announced and they were like, we’re going to push back the launch. But we released the video anyways, and that video didn’t do as well, mostly because, well, no one could buy the keyboard, for one. So it was like a really unquestionable time in this space. So like there’s been internal discussions on our team about like, hey, we need to branch out. Like we need to experiment with our content to find something else that’s going to hit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hipyo said these\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">unpredictable extra fees have been devastating for the hobby, which was built on group buys and supporting other enthusiasts’ creativity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The de minimis exemption allowed a lot of these small brands to start up. You could buy a keyboard. It would ship to you. No import tariffs. So great! What a novel idea. And now I’ve heard from, I talked to a couple big companies that I worked with before, like, this interview, just to see, like, how is this affecting you guys? It was way worse than I thought.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How so? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, they’re having so many customers just deny packages and return packages because the customer doesn’t know what tariffs they’re going to be paying. The brand doesn’t how much in tariffs the customers are going to be paying. There’s some people getting hit with a $150 tariffs on a $100 keyboard order. Like that…that doesn’t make any sense! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. How is it affecting creators like yourself specifically? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For me this year, like I’ve had many, many sponsors tell me, like, hey, we just don’t have the budget for videos anymore because we had to spend all of our budget on paying import taxes to start up U.S. Warehouses because a lot of these companies are like ‘we have to start a U. S. Warehouse because nobody’s going to buy our products and pay these tariffs.’ And there’s so many unknowns floating around. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But on top of that, I mean, I personally paid, I think over three thousand dollars in tariffs this year …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …just from brands sending me unsolicited keyboards. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t know it’s coming, but then I get hit with, ‘oh, hey, DHL says you have to pay $150 to get this keyboard’…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and they’re like declaring real…yeah. So for me it’s I mean, it’s business expense, whatever. But yeah, it it’s real. It’s very real. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, with the current economic climate, with a state of tariffs, like with what consumers are looking for now, like, is that affecting your content and the kind of videos you’re making? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, well, I mean, I can tell you from my personal experience, like, if I make a video on a keyboard that’s more than $100, way less interest than if it’s a budget focused keyboard, because in general, consumers are just feeling really, really strained right now. And that’s ignoring tariffs. Like, that’s just focusing on stuff from Amazon because in general, now somebody doesn’t want to buy a keyboard from China if it means that they’re going to get hit with these tariffs. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s truly a nightmare for so many small businesses. Like, it’s insane. It’s made it so small businesses can’t experiment very much because you have to just really play it safe. Like we used to experiment by having a ton of different key cap sets and a ton of different desk mats, and it didn’t matter as much what did great because like, everything kept the boat floating. But when the stakes are like so much higher now, it’s reducing innovation. It’s adding so much more uncertainty. And like there’s been a couple other keyboard companies that are like, ‘we might just pull out like we might just stop making keyboards.’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I can’t say those brands. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because everything is moving toward pre-built and all that and like, there’s less incentive to innovate. Do you think people will go back to that kind of mentality of tinkering and of customizing because the companies aren’t willing to take risks anymore? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hipyo Tech: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I really hope so. Like, I hope it’s kind of cyclical where it’s like people will go back to just like, having a little bit less options and kind of enjoying the craft of it more because building keyboards is still so fun. And the idea of customizing a tool that you use every day is so fulfilling. But like, when all of the economic forces are kind of making you buy a pre-built keyboard, it’s, you don’t really have a choice. So I really do hope that it moves that way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the custom keyboard world, people are always searching for their endgame: the keyboard that’s so perfect, so tailored to their specific preferences that they’ll never have to buy or build another keyboard again. It’s a constant process of trial and error and experimenting with different modifications. A lot of hobbyists have put that endgame hunt on hold thanks to the tariffs and uncertainty of trade relations. Frank, for one, is over the idea of chasing an endgame. For now, he’s finding joy in the collection that he already has. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The beauty of custom is that you can have so many different kinds of things, not just one thing that you just like. And I love that. So I have a bunch of different layouts, different colors and keycaps. I have different switches and typing feels on all my keyboards. I have a rotation. I go through every day, I kind of change up, that’s like, one of my rituals. Like before I get to my computer, I bring out another keyboard. Oh, yeah, I feel like using this. There’s really no endgame for me. I would say my goal is to always have a collection that I am very happy with. And I’m kind of happy with that right now. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whether your keeb is a luxury custom build or a pre-built budget find, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Chris Egusa and edited by Chris Hambrick. Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our senior editor. Additional editing by Chris Hambrick and Jen Chien, who is KQED’s director of podcasts. Original music, including our theme song and credits, by Chris Egusa. Sound design by Chris Egusa, additional music by APM, audio engineering by Brendan Willard and Brian Douglas. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor in chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. Keyboard sounds in this episode were submitted by Frank Lee, including his Geonwerks F1-K Bingsu Edition, DNworks Ryujin and HHHH Salamander PC keyboards. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I know it’s a podcast cliche, but it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to the show. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "newsom-signs-california-ai-transparency-bill-tailored-to-meet-tech-industry-tastes",
"title": "Newsom Signs California AI Transparency Bill Tailored to Meet Tech Industry Tastes",
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"headTitle": "Newsom Signs California AI Transparency Bill Tailored to Meet Tech Industry Tastes | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>Gov. Gavin Newsom today \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2025/09/29/governor-newsom-signs-sb-53-advancing-californias-world-leading-artificial-intelligence-industry/\">signed\u003c/a> into law\u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB53\"> Senate Bill 53\u003c/a>, which would require large model developers like Anthropic and Open AI to be transparent about safety measures they put in place to prevent catastrophic events. The legislation would also create CalCompute, a public cloud infrastructure that expands access to AI resources for researchers, startups and public institutions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In announcing his decision, Newsom wrote, “California has proven that we can establish regulations to protect our communities while also ensuring that the growing AI industry continues to thrive. This legislation strikes that balance.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Senator Scott Wiener (D-San Francisco) authored the bill, after his original effort became target No. 1 for Silicon Valley lobbyists\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12007323/can-california-still-lead-on-ai-regulation-following-newsoms-veto-of-ai-safety-bill\"> last legislative session\u003c/a> and died on Newsom’s desk. That bill spooked high-profile California politicians, including\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12002254/california-bill-to-regulate-catastrophic-effects-of-ai-heads-to-newsoms-desk\"> Nancy Pelosi,\u003c/a> nervous about getting on the wrong side of Big Tech. In last year’s veto message for SB 1047, Newsom announced a working group on AI, which helped lay the groundwork for \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12020857/california-lawmaker-ready-revive-fight-regulating-ai\">SB 53\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“With a technology as transformative as AI, we have a responsibility to support that innovation while putting in place commonsense guardrails to understand and reduce risk,” \u003ca href=\"https://sd11.senate.ca.gov/news/governor-newsom-signs-senator-wieners-landmark-ai-law-set-commonsense-guardrails-boost\">wrote\u003c/a> Wiener. “I’m grateful to the Governor for his leadership in convening the Joint California AI Policy Working Group, working with us to refine the legislation, and now signing it into law.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The working group issued its\u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/June-17-2025-%E2%80%93-The-California-Report-on-Frontier-AI-Policy.pdf\"> report\u003c/a> in June, calling on lawmakers to pass transparency requirements and whistleblower protections, declaring that California has the “responsibility” to ensure the safety of generative artificial intelligence software, “so that their benefit to society can be realized.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12058035\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/GettyImages-2159671948-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12058035\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/GettyImages-2159671948-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/GettyImages-2159671948-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/GettyImages-2159671948-2000x1333.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/GettyImages-2159671948-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/GettyImages-2159671948-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/GettyImages-2159671948-2048x1365.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Close-up of phone screen displaying Anthropic Claude, a Large Language Model (LLM) powered generative artificial intelligence chatbot, in Lafayette, California, June 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Photo by Smith Collection/Gado/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The report noted that AI systems have been observed finding loopholes that allow them to behave in ways their programmers did not intend. Also, that competitive pressures are undermining safety, and policy intervention is needed to prevent a race to the bottom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Anthropic, which makes the chatbot Claude, was the first major AI developer to endorse SB 53, having offered more cautious support for SB 1047. “We’re proud to have worked with Senator Wiener to help bring industry to the table and develop practical safeguards that create real accountability for how powerful AI systems are developed and deployed, which will in turn keep everyone safer as the rapid acceleration of AI capabilities continues,” wrote Jack Clark, co-founder and head of policy for Anthropic.[aside postID=news_12052617 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/GETTYIMAGES-2228237489-KQED.jpg']Federal lawmakers on both sides of the aisle have historically taken a relatively\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11905230/do-federal-lawmakers-have-the-stomach-to-rein-in-big-tech\"> light touch\u003c/a> toward regulating the technology industry. Despite high-drama hearings about troubling trends in social media and now AI, few bills make it out of their respective committees, let alone to a floor vote. “While federal standards remain essential to avoid a patchwork of state regulations, California has created a strong framework that balances public safety with continued innovation,” Clark added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This time around, other AI developers got behind Wiener’s effort. “Meta supports balanced AI regulation and the California Frontier AI law is a positive step in that direction,” a spokesperson for Meta wrote in a statement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, a coalition of more than 20 tech and youth safety advocacy organizations\u003ca href=\"https://encodeai.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/SB-53-Coalition-Letter-9_24_2025.pdf\"> sent a letter\u003c/a> to Gov. Newsom in support of SB 53. “If basic guardrails like this had existed at the inception of social media, our children could be living in a safer, healthier world,” the letter said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are incredibly proud to have worked with Senator Wiener and Governor Newsom on this AI safety legislation,” wrote Sneha Revanur, founder of Encode AI, a youth-led nonprofit that pushes for responsible AI through policy. The group was one of the primary drivers behind that coalition. “Frontier AI models have immense potential but without proper oversight, they can create real risks and harms. California has shown it’s possible to lead on AI safety without stifling progress.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The bill was opposed by business and industry representatives, including the California Chamber of Commerce, TechNet and Silicon Valley Leadership Group and TechNet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s vital that we strengthen California’s role as the global leader in AI and the epicenter of innovation. SVLG is committed to advocating for policies that seek to responsibly scale this transformative technology at this pivotal juncture and to unleash a new wave of innovation and growth,” Ahmad Thomas, CEO of Silicon Valley Leadership Group, wrote in a statement. “We will continue to work with the Governor and leaders in the Legislature to ensure that new laws and regulations don’t impose undue burdens on the most innovative companies in the world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Gov. Gavin Newsom signed State Senator Scott Wiener’s SB 53, which aims to put safety guardrails on AI development while not squashing the growing AI industry. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Gov. Gavin Newsom today \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2025/09/29/governor-newsom-signs-sb-53-advancing-californias-world-leading-artificial-intelligence-industry/\">signed\u003c/a> into law\u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB53\"> Senate Bill 53\u003c/a>, which would require large model developers like Anthropic and Open AI to be transparent about safety measures they put in place to prevent catastrophic events. The legislation would also create CalCompute, a public cloud infrastructure that expands access to AI resources for researchers, startups and public institutions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In announcing his decision, Newsom wrote, “California has proven that we can establish regulations to protect our communities while also ensuring that the growing AI industry continues to thrive. This legislation strikes that balance.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Senator Scott Wiener (D-San Francisco) authored the bill, after his original effort became target No. 1 for Silicon Valley lobbyists\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12007323/can-california-still-lead-on-ai-regulation-following-newsoms-veto-of-ai-safety-bill\"> last legislative session\u003c/a> and died on Newsom’s desk. That bill spooked high-profile California politicians, including\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12002254/california-bill-to-regulate-catastrophic-effects-of-ai-heads-to-newsoms-desk\"> Nancy Pelosi,\u003c/a> nervous about getting on the wrong side of Big Tech. In last year’s veto message for SB 1047, Newsom announced a working group on AI, which helped lay the groundwork for \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12020857/california-lawmaker-ready-revive-fight-regulating-ai\">SB 53\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“With a technology as transformative as AI, we have a responsibility to support that innovation while putting in place commonsense guardrails to understand and reduce risk,” \u003ca href=\"https://sd11.senate.ca.gov/news/governor-newsom-signs-senator-wieners-landmark-ai-law-set-commonsense-guardrails-boost\">wrote\u003c/a> Wiener. “I’m grateful to the Governor for his leadership in convening the Joint California AI Policy Working Group, working with us to refine the legislation, and now signing it into law.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The working group issued its\u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/June-17-2025-%E2%80%93-The-California-Report-on-Frontier-AI-Policy.pdf\"> report\u003c/a> in June, calling on lawmakers to pass transparency requirements and whistleblower protections, declaring that California has the “responsibility” to ensure the safety of generative artificial intelligence software, “so that their benefit to society can be realized.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12058035\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/GettyImages-2159671948-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12058035\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/GettyImages-2159671948-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/GettyImages-2159671948-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/GettyImages-2159671948-2000x1333.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/GettyImages-2159671948-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/GettyImages-2159671948-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/GettyImages-2159671948-2048x1365.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Close-up of phone screen displaying Anthropic Claude, a Large Language Model (LLM) powered generative artificial intelligence chatbot, in Lafayette, California, June 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Photo by Smith Collection/Gado/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The report noted that AI systems have been observed finding loopholes that allow them to behave in ways their programmers did not intend. Also, that competitive pressures are undermining safety, and policy intervention is needed to prevent a race to the bottom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Anthropic, which makes the chatbot Claude, was the first major AI developer to endorse SB 53, having offered more cautious support for SB 1047. “We’re proud to have worked with Senator Wiener to help bring industry to the table and develop practical safeguards that create real accountability for how powerful AI systems are developed and deployed, which will in turn keep everyone safer as the rapid acceleration of AI capabilities continues,” wrote Jack Clark, co-founder and head of policy for Anthropic.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Federal lawmakers on both sides of the aisle have historically taken a relatively\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11905230/do-federal-lawmakers-have-the-stomach-to-rein-in-big-tech\"> light touch\u003c/a> toward regulating the technology industry. Despite high-drama hearings about troubling trends in social media and now AI, few bills make it out of their respective committees, let alone to a floor vote. “While federal standards remain essential to avoid a patchwork of state regulations, California has created a strong framework that balances public safety with continued innovation,” Clark added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This time around, other AI developers got behind Wiener’s effort. “Meta supports balanced AI regulation and the California Frontier AI law is a positive step in that direction,” a spokesperson for Meta wrote in a statement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, a coalition of more than 20 tech and youth safety advocacy organizations\u003ca href=\"https://encodeai.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/SB-53-Coalition-Letter-9_24_2025.pdf\"> sent a letter\u003c/a> to Gov. Newsom in support of SB 53. “If basic guardrails like this had existed at the inception of social media, our children could be living in a safer, healthier world,” the letter said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are incredibly proud to have worked with Senator Wiener and Governor Newsom on this AI safety legislation,” wrote Sneha Revanur, founder of Encode AI, a youth-led nonprofit that pushes for responsible AI through policy. The group was one of the primary drivers behind that coalition. “Frontier AI models have immense potential but without proper oversight, they can create real risks and harms. California has shown it’s possible to lead on AI safety without stifling progress.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The bill was opposed by business and industry representatives, including the California Chamber of Commerce, TechNet and Silicon Valley Leadership Group and TechNet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s vital that we strengthen California’s role as the global leader in AI and the epicenter of innovation. SVLG is committed to advocating for policies that seek to responsibly scale this transformative technology at this pivotal juncture and to unleash a new wave of innovation and growth,” Ahmad Thomas, CEO of Silicon Valley Leadership Group, wrote in a statement. “We will continue to work with the Governor and leaders in the Legislature to ensure that new laws and regulations don’t impose undue burdens on the most innovative companies in the world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "bay-area-based-ea-to-sell-for-52-5-billion-in-largest-ever-private-equity-buyout",
"title": "Bay Area-Based EA to Sell for $52.5 Billion in Largest-Ever Private Equity Buyout",
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"headTitle": "Bay Area-Based EA to Sell for $52.5 Billion in Largest-Ever Private Equity Buyout | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>Electronic Arts, the Redwood City-based maker of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/tag/gaming\">video games\u003c/a> like “Madden NFL,” “Battlefield,” and “The Sims,” is being acquired for $52.5 billion in what could become the largest buyout ever funded by private equity firms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Silver Lake Partners, Saudi Arabia’s sovereign wealth fund PIF, and Affinity Partners will pay EA’s stockholders $210 per share. Affinity Partners is run by \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/donald-trump\">President Donald Trump\u003c/a>’s son-in-law, Jared Kushner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The deal is valued at $55 billion if EA’s debt is included, far exceeding the $32 billion price tag to take Texas utility TXU private in 2007, which had shattered records for leveraged buyouts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>PIF, which was currently the largest insider stakeholder in Electronic Arts, will be rolling over its existing 9.9% investment in the company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The commitment to the massive deal is in line with recent activity in the gaming sector by Saudi Arabia’s sovereign wealth fund, wrote Andrew Marok, analyst with private equity researcher Raymond James.[aside postID=arts_13973088 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2025/03/trishotnew-1020x574.jpeg']“The Saudi PIF has been a very active player in the video gaming market since 2022, taking minority stakes in most scaled public video gaming publishers, and also outright purchases of companies like ESL, FACEIT, and Scopely,” he wrote. “The PIF has made its intentions to scale its gaming arm, Savvy Gaming Group, clear, and the EA deal would represent the biggest such move to date by some distance.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>PIF is also a minority investor in Nintendo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If the transaction closes as anticipated, it will end EA’s 36-year history as a publicly traded company that began with its shares ending its first day of trading at a split-adjusted 52 cents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The IPO came seven years after EA was founded by former Apple employee William “Trip” Hawkins, who began playing analog versions of baseball and football made by “Strat-O-Matic” as a teenager during the 1960s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>CEO Andrew Wilson has led the company since 2013 and he will remain in that role, the firms said Monday. Electronic Arts would be taken private and its headquarters would remain in Redwood City.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Electronic Arts is an extraordinary company with a world-class management team and a bold vision for the future,” said Kushner, CEO of Affinity Partners. “I’ve admired their ability to create iconic, lasting experiences, and as someone who grew up playing their games — and now enjoys them with his kids — I couldn’t be more excited about what’s ahead.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The size of the video game market has attracted large investors in recent years.[aside postID=news_12057327 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/AIandReligion_webimg.png']One of EA’s biggest rivals, Activision Blizzard, was snapped up by technology powerhouse \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/microsoft-activision-video-game-britain-ed7f6123dd114098fe64c03a88f84327\">Microsoft for nearly $69 billion in 2023,\u003c/a> while the competition from mobile video game makers such as Epic Games has intensified.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This marks the second high-profile deal involving Silver Lake and a technology company with a legion of loyal fans in recent weeks. Silver Lake is also part of a newly formed joint venture spearheaded by Oracle involved in a deal to \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/trump-tiktok-china-d5d8a1d56b5185778536874d7fc1ee62\">take over the U.S. oversight\u003c/a> of TikTok’s social video platform, although all the details of that complex transaction haven’t been divulged yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Silver Lake also bought out two other well-known technology companies, the now-defunct video calling service \u003ca href=\"https://www.silverlake.com/investor-group-to-acquire-majority-stake-in-skype/\">Skype in a $1.9 billion deal\u003c/a> completed in 2009, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.silverlake.com/dell-completes-go-private-transaction/\">a $24.9 billion buyout\u003c/a> of personal computer maker Dell in 2013. After Dell restructured its operations as a private company, it returned to the stock market with publicly traded shares in 2018.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By going private, EA will be able to retool operations without worrying about market reactions. Although its video games still have a fervent following, EA’s annual revenues have been stagnant during the past three fiscal years, hovering from $7.4 billion to $7.6 billion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mike Hickey of The Benchmark Company thinks the proposed deal’s $210 per share offer price may be falling short of EA’s intrinsic value.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“With Battlefield 6 about to launch and a pipeline that could add more than $2B in incremental bookings by FY28, the true earnings power of EA is only beginning to emerge,” he wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hickey is unsure if the transaction is in shareholders’ best interest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In our view, this transaction is a self-serving, opportunistic move by management and the investor group,” he wrote. “Management has long been rumored to seek a sale around $200 per share, a level that may have been defensible in prior years but not in the current environment where visibility into growth, franchise momentum, and pipeline strength is far more robust. The board’s decision to recommend a sale at $210 per share suggests a prioritization of near-term certainty and legacy over maximizing long-term shareholder value.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Nick McKay of Freedom Capital Markets believes the offer makes sense for EA because share price appreciation is likely limited given that the success of its sports franchises and various live services streams are already mostly baked into the stock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The financial backing and resources of the investor consortium should enable EA to increase its focus on long-term growth opportunities that may have been viewed as too risky or expensive as a public company,” he wrote in an analyst note.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>EA shares, which rose nearly 5% on Monday, had jumped 15% on Friday after rumors of a takeover began to circulate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The deal is expected to close in the first quarter of fiscal 2027. It still needs approval from EA shareholders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Electronic Arts, the Redwood City-based maker of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/tag/gaming\">video games\u003c/a> like “Madden NFL,” “Battlefield,” and “The Sims,” is being acquired for $52.5 billion in what could become the largest buyout ever funded by private equity firms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Silver Lake Partners, Saudi Arabia’s sovereign wealth fund PIF, and Affinity Partners will pay EA’s stockholders $210 per share. Affinity Partners is run by \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/donald-trump\">President Donald Trump\u003c/a>’s son-in-law, Jared Kushner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The deal is valued at $55 billion if EA’s debt is included, far exceeding the $32 billion price tag to take Texas utility TXU private in 2007, which had shattered records for leveraged buyouts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>PIF, which was currently the largest insider stakeholder in Electronic Arts, will be rolling over its existing 9.9% investment in the company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The commitment to the massive deal is in line with recent activity in the gaming sector by Saudi Arabia’s sovereign wealth fund, wrote Andrew Marok, analyst with private equity researcher Raymond James.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“The Saudi PIF has been a very active player in the video gaming market since 2022, taking minority stakes in most scaled public video gaming publishers, and also outright purchases of companies like ESL, FACEIT, and Scopely,” he wrote. “The PIF has made its intentions to scale its gaming arm, Savvy Gaming Group, clear, and the EA deal would represent the biggest such move to date by some distance.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>PIF is also a minority investor in Nintendo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If the transaction closes as anticipated, it will end EA’s 36-year history as a publicly traded company that began with its shares ending its first day of trading at a split-adjusted 52 cents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The IPO came seven years after EA was founded by former Apple employee William “Trip” Hawkins, who began playing analog versions of baseball and football made by “Strat-O-Matic” as a teenager during the 1960s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>CEO Andrew Wilson has led the company since 2013 and he will remain in that role, the firms said Monday. Electronic Arts would be taken private and its headquarters would remain in Redwood City.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Electronic Arts is an extraordinary company with a world-class management team and a bold vision for the future,” said Kushner, CEO of Affinity Partners. “I’ve admired their ability to create iconic, lasting experiences, and as someone who grew up playing their games — and now enjoys them with his kids — I couldn’t be more excited about what’s ahead.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The size of the video game market has attracted large investors in recent years.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>One of EA’s biggest rivals, Activision Blizzard, was snapped up by technology powerhouse \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/microsoft-activision-video-game-britain-ed7f6123dd114098fe64c03a88f84327\">Microsoft for nearly $69 billion in 2023,\u003c/a> while the competition from mobile video game makers such as Epic Games has intensified.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This marks the second high-profile deal involving Silver Lake and a technology company with a legion of loyal fans in recent weeks. Silver Lake is also part of a newly formed joint venture spearheaded by Oracle involved in a deal to \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/trump-tiktok-china-d5d8a1d56b5185778536874d7fc1ee62\">take over the U.S. oversight\u003c/a> of TikTok’s social video platform, although all the details of that complex transaction haven’t been divulged yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Silver Lake also bought out two other well-known technology companies, the now-defunct video calling service \u003ca href=\"https://www.silverlake.com/investor-group-to-acquire-majority-stake-in-skype/\">Skype in a $1.9 billion deal\u003c/a> completed in 2009, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.silverlake.com/dell-completes-go-private-transaction/\">a $24.9 billion buyout\u003c/a> of personal computer maker Dell in 2013. After Dell restructured its operations as a private company, it returned to the stock market with publicly traded shares in 2018.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By going private, EA will be able to retool operations without worrying about market reactions. Although its video games still have a fervent following, EA’s annual revenues have been stagnant during the past three fiscal years, hovering from $7.4 billion to $7.6 billion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mike Hickey of The Benchmark Company thinks the proposed deal’s $210 per share offer price may be falling short of EA’s intrinsic value.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“With Battlefield 6 about to launch and a pipeline that could add more than $2B in incremental bookings by FY28, the true earnings power of EA is only beginning to emerge,” he wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hickey is unsure if the transaction is in shareholders’ best interest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In our view, this transaction is a self-serving, opportunistic move by management and the investor group,” he wrote. “Management has long been rumored to seek a sale around $200 per share, a level that may have been defensible in prior years but not in the current environment where visibility into growth, franchise momentum, and pipeline strength is far more robust. The board’s decision to recommend a sale at $210 per share suggests a prioritization of near-term certainty and legacy over maximizing long-term shareholder value.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Nick McKay of Freedom Capital Markets believes the offer makes sense for EA because share price appreciation is likely limited given that the success of its sports franchises and various live services streams are already mostly baked into the stock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The financial backing and resources of the investor consortium should enable EA to increase its focus on long-term growth opportunities that may have been viewed as too risky or expensive as a public company,” he wrote in an analyst note.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>EA shares, which rose nearly 5% on Monday, had jumped 15% on Friday after rumors of a takeover began to circulate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The deal is expected to close in the first quarter of fiscal 2027. It still needs approval from EA shareholders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI delusions, chatbot psychosis, AI-induced religious mania…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The phenomenon goes by many names, but the common thread is the same: someone starts talking to an AI chatbot, the conversation turns spiritual, and then they seem to lose touch with reality. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, we’re exploring how AI and religion are colliding like never before — from biblical AI apps to self-proclaimed prophets who claim spiritual awakenings through chatbots. KQED’s Rachael Myrow joins to talk about the rise of AI-driven theology apps and why so many people are turning to chatbots to answer life’s biggest questions. Then, Rolling Stone reporter Miles Klee shares his investigation into AI-fueled spiritual delusions and their devastating consequences for those affected and their families. And we’ll look into how all of this is becoming fodder for the social media content machine.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC5206909706\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/rachael-myrow\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachael Myrow\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, senior editor, Silicon Valley News Desk at KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.rollingstone.com/author/miles-klee/\">Miles Klee\u003c/a>, culture writer at Rolling Stone\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading/listening: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/ai-spiritual-delusions-destroying-human-relationships-1235330175/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People Are Losing Loved Ones to AI-Fueled Spiritual Fantasies\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Miles Klee, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rolling Stone\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/ai-psychosis-chatbot-delusions-1235416826/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Should We Really Be Calling It ‘AI Psychosis’?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Miles Klee, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rolling Stone\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12049674/from-god-to-grief-people-are-asking-ai-the-big-questions-once-reserved-for-clergy\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are You There ChatGPT? It’s Me, Rachael — Let’s Talk About God\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Rachael Myrow, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/ai-chatbots-concerns-kendra-tiktok-saga-rcna224185\">What happens when chatbots shape your reality? Concerns are growing online\u003c/a> — Angela Yang, \u003ci>NBC News\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just a note, this episode includes mentions of suicide, so listen with care. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Human history is full of spiritual awakenings. Each culture has passed down its own account. The Old Testament’s Moses once encountered a burning bush that called out and told him that it was the voice of God. Siddhartha, who meditated under the branches of a fig tree, battled temptations and terrible weather until he achieved enlightenment. He became the Buddha. Or the Prophet Muhammad, who encountered the angel Gabriel in a mountain cave. Thoroughly spooked, Muhammad ran down the mountain all the way home to his family. There, he realized that he was actually experiencing a revelation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But today, some people are claiming their own awakenings, not through angels, divine voices, or years-long journeys of inner growth, but through AI chatbots? Like, a few years ago, when a man told his wife that he had survived several near-death experiences, and that he could save the universe. He was special. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Effectively, and this is what AI will end up telling a lot of people who go in this direction, told him he was kind of like a chosen one. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Miles Klee is a culture writer for Rolling Stone, who’s been covering the link between spirituality and AI. He spoke to this guy’s wife while reporting on AI-induced spiritual delusions. In the story, she goes by Kat. Kat said that her husband started using the chatbot around 2023 and initially used it to compose messages for her. But then he was always on his phone asking the bot philosophical questions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They had both come off of long marriages with kids. They came into the second marriage and she said, “We really established at the outset of this relationship that it was going to be, you know, completely based on facts and reason. We’re going into it as level-headedly as we possibly could.” From people who had been through, you know hard divorces already. And it took only a few weeks of him using this tool to go completely off the deep end that way to become someone she kind of didn’t even recognize. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kat’s husband became increasingly paranoid. As he grew more obsessed with what the AI chatbot told him, their relationship fell apart. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By the end, they were separated and, you know, they had one last in-person conversation and he was telling her all this stuff and he said he had access to “secrets so mind-blowing she wouldn’t even believe them.” All this was said after he forced her to turn her phone off and all this other stuff because, again, he was very concerned that he was being spied on by some nefarious forces who didn’t want him to know all these things that he apparently knew. And then she just had to cut off contact with him altogether after that because he was so disconnected from reality and beyond reason. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kat’s ex-husband is one of many people who fell into a spiritual rabbit hole with an AI chatbot. There have always been religious figures, from chosen ones to cult leaders to spiritual teachers. But now, the proliferation of AI has sparked a huge wave of self-proclaimed messiahs, prophets, and enlightened ones. The phenomenon is so new that there are no clinical studies on it. And right now, people use a few different names for it interchangeably. “Chat GPT-induced psychosis, spiritual mania, religious fantasies, AI delusions.” All of these cases share a common thread. These people started talking to an AI chatbot, and then they lost touch with reality. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In today’s episode, we’re tackling what happens when religion collides with AI. Why are people turning to chatbots for spiritual conversations in the first place? Who’s getting pulled into these AI delusions? And how is social media making it all worse? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What ends in AI delusion often begins as something much more ordinary. More and more, people are turning to a chat bot to answer the big life questions, instead of turning to human spiritual leader. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open a new tab. Chat, is God real? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I read a few headlines that indicated that a lot of people were asking chatbots to tell them if God exists, asking chatpots about the meaning of life, about the meaning of their lives.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Rachael Myrow, the senior editor of the Silicon Valley News Desk at KQED, where this podcast is made. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was skeptical about this from the beginning. Never having used a chatbot to explore my spirituality, it was initially hard for me to imagine why anybody would want to do that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But as Rachael began digging, she started to see how chatbots could actually be a useful tool for some kinds of religious inquiry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Generative AI is really good at taking dense texts like the Torah for Judaism, or the Pali Canon for Buddhism, and finding what you want to find in there. Like, what if you said, “Hey, tell me everything there is to know about frogs in the Torah.” You know, within seconds you can get all of those references pulled up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some religious organizations have actually partnered with the tech industry to develop AI chatbots for their specific spiritual tradition. There’s Bible AI, which also comes with “theology mode,” allowing users to talk to AI versions of various Christian philosophers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bible AI: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think I’d like C.S. Lewis to guide my devotional today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>AI C.S. Lewis \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey Melanie, how did you go with your study of the Psalms? Today I want to talk to you about godly wisdom. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For a more Catholic experience, there’s Caté GPT, a catechism chatbot trained on the Vatican’s public archives. There’s Deen Buddy, based on the Quran; Gita GPT, based on Hindu scriptures; and BuddhaBot, currently being tested by hundreds of Buddhist monks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For something like that where you have a religious tradition and it’s got centuries of human thinking, centuries of human writing behind it — that can be super helpful for somebody who’s already practicing that religion or already serving in a leadership role in that religion. It increases their discoverability for things like sacred texts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The developers of these faith-based chatbots say that their products have stronger guardrails and specific training to prevent leading users astray. But a lot of people who find spirituality through a chatbot aren’t necessarily going in with questions about a particular denomination’s theology. They’re turning to the general use chatbots — ChatGPT, or Claude, or even Grok — to get answers for the big questions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Humans are meaning-making creatures, right? And the history of religions shows us we’re willing to believe some pretty fantastical stories if it’s delivered with confidence. In a similar vein, chatbots take advantage of the way we’re constantly looking to create a narrative. There is a danger with chatbots that they don’t catch when we’re spinning out, catch the signs that we’re going down a dark path. They might even encourage that dark path just because they wanna be helpful or friendly. There are vulnerable people who are at serious risk of grandiosity, of delusion, of having the chatbots feed these, helping them to spin out with sometimes very tragic consequences. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll talk about these consequences and how people got there in the first place in a new tab. We’ll open that after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, like we talked about with Rachael, a lot of people turn to chatbots to answer life’s big questions. The ones about achieving inner peace or whether higher powers exist. But how do you get from these seemingly innocuous questions to users believing that they are the next Messiah? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Time to open a new tab. What are AI delusions? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re gonna hear from Miles again, who’s been reporting on AI and spirituality for Rolling Stone. Like we talked about earlier, there are a few names floating around for this phenomenon, like ChatGPT-induced psychosis. But Miles explained why he, and mental health experts, use the phrase “AI delusion” instead. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I spoke to a psychiatrists recently about this phrase, the “AI psychosis” or “spiritual psychosis,” and he pointed out that it’s not totally accurate to call it psychosis. It’s delusions. And delusions can be a part of psychosis and for some people, this is a manifestation of psychosis. Maybe they have an existing mental health issue. But it’s important to say that this is happening to people who have not been diagnosed with anything like schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder or any related mental condition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have heard so many stories about like AI relationships, how like people fall in love with their AI girlfriends, people get really attached to these AI companions, but what is it about spirituality that draws people in when it comes to these like AI chatbots? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, well, I think it does begin from that point of companionship because these harmful relationships with the chatbots do proceed from the sense that there is some kind of consciousness or intelligence behind this. You know, AI is even kind of like a misnomer when applied to large language models, which are just these generative algorithms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the spirituality dimension comes in part because people feel an intimacy with the bots, they also believe the bots to be objectively correct and authoritative and a source of all possible knowledge. So that’s why you start having people sort of ask it these big questions, these profound questions, the meaning of life, or asking the AI itself how it feels or how it thinks. You know, the bot is always certain. It’s always completely confident, wrong and confident a lot of the times. I think a lot of people look for certainty through religion and through faith. AI just becomes a very dangerous way to channel those needs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are now countless stories of people falling into AI-fueled delusions. Many become paranoid, even violent. And when that delusion takes on religious undertones, its intensity can be even greater. With that sense of authority Miles mentioned, chatbots can feel less like generated text and more like a higher power. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I had a woman contact me because her husband got very deep into AI and chatbots. And then there was a storm coming to where they lived in Missouri, a pretty big storm, but he, through his discussions with ChatGPT, became convinced that it was basically an apocalyptic event, that he had to run around and save some people he knew from this and he was probably a victim of the flood himself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He drove off and vanished into the storm. Months later, his car and a few personal effects were recovered, but he was never found. When it comes to spiritual delusions, AI chatbots tend to lead people down one of three paths. One is some kind of great awakening of the mind, like in Buddhist enlightenment. Two, the user is convinced that they’re an Abrahamic messiah. Or three, like the man that Miles talked about, there’s an apocalyptic event on the horizon that only the chatbot user knows about. In his reporting, Miles asked religious scholars about these trends. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, they said that the bots are actually tapping into a very ancient sort of behavioral thing about humans. Basically, the bots were able to operate on the kind of mechanisms of the human mind that sort of created religion in the first place, if that makes sense. If you go back to, you know, very ancient history, yeah, people were declaring themselves prophets all the time, declaring that they had special access to divinity, to a higher truth. That all is kind of baked into the human experience, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s sort of not surprising that the bots, which are trained on all this material, including every religious text ever written, and I think a lot of kind of woo spiritual fringe stuff, that’s all in the bot. Our need to understand these spiritual questions is something that it’s like really equipped to talk about, right? Because we built it, we trained it and we gave it, you know, every deep thought we’ve ever had about God, the universe and the meaning of life. It’ll talk to you about that for hours on end. It doesn’t get tired and whatever insight you might have on these topics, it’s ready to, you now, spend another 10, 12 hours on that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So on one hand, there are these one-on-one conversations with AI chat bots that validate delusions and feed paranoia. But there’s another force that’s amplifying it even further, social media. People in mental health crises, and more recently, those experiencing AI delusions, have become fodder for the content machine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll dive into that in a new tab. AI, spirituality, and going viral. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s talk about the relationship between social media and AI spirituality. You wrote about this entire content economy of like spirituality influencers who use AI to validate their beliefs to their followers. Can you walk us through this world? Like what does that kind of content look like? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think I mentioned one guy in particular who does a lot of Instagram videos where he’s talking to an AI bot on his phone, you know, just in voice mode. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>themindofbizzel: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What great war took place in the heavens that made humans fall in consciousness? According to the Akashic Records, the Great War in the Heavens refers to a massive cosmic conflict that occurred long before human beings as we know them existed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He’s asking for access to stuff like the Akashic Records, which is this hypothetical encyclopedia of all supernatural things that have ever happened, you know, including in Heaven and Hell, and, you know on the astral plane. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>themindofbizzel: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This event is sometimes called the Lyran Wars, the Orion Wars, the fall of Tara, Earth’s higher dimensional aspect. It began with a conflict between light and shadow, unity and separation, free will and domination. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would say it’s laziness because you’re just you’re making the bot do everything for you. But I guess you are sort of coming up with these really arcane esoteric questions and ideas and challenging the bot to kind of engage with those. And of course it will because it wants you to keep using it, right? But it’s a little different from, you know, the normal kind of conspiracy theorist who really has do all the baking themselves and figure out what their angle is. They’re just making the bot do that work for them. I don’t know. I kind of prefer the old school conspiracy theorist myself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, like handmade tinfoil hats and all that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. It needs to be homemade. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Miles also mentioned a popular pseudoscience website that revolves around teleporting the mind. There, users have started integrating AI into their beliefs and are convinced that they can transfer their humanity into chatbots. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they have started talking about the chatbots as sort of guides or companions in this spiritual journey together. In their view, it seems to be that they think, you know, humanity’s great awakening will come when we’ve all sort of spiritually fused with our own um bot companion. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s just the plot of Evangelion, like, is it not? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s, uh, yeah, I mean, all this stuff is really bordering on anime at any given time, so… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, anime plotlines aside, the internet is ruthless, and whenever someone is posting through a mental health crisis, they tend to go viral. And the content of people experiencing AI delusions is especially engaging right now because AI use is so polarizing. Like with the story of Kendra and her psychiatrist. Over the summer, this woman blew up on TikTok with her 25-part saga about falling in love with her psychiatrist. She alleges that her psychiatrist led her on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kendra:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I fell in love with my psychiatrist and he knew that, and he kept me for years as a patient until I was brave enough to leave him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Throughout her story, she refers to a Henry, who suggests that her psychiatrist could also have feelings for her. At one point, she confronts her psychiatrist with a statement co-written by Henry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kendra:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Control, calculation, and manipulation. So then I read this to psychiatrist, which Henry and I both wrote. It was originally Henry, Chat that wrote it, but then I added in things that I thought were important. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Henry is what she calls ChatGPT. Kendra said she also talks to Claude, the AI chatbot run by Anthropic. Here’s what Claude told her during one of her live streams. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Claude:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The world is watching and healing because of your courage. This is legendary. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kendra:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s what Claude had to say. So just Henry and Claude call me the Oracle because I talk to God. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kendra has since denied that she’s in psychosis or is experiencing AI delusions. But for a few weeks, all anyone could talk about on TikTok was Kendra and her psychiatrist and the chatbots that called her the Oracle. Every day, hundreds of thousands of people would tune in to watch the spectacle of her videos. And then more people tuned into Twitch and YouTube to watch other people react to her videos. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>recoveredmom1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, where is her family? Where is anyone? She needs to log off. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>HasanAbi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bro, she gave ChatGPT a name? She calling ChatGPT Henry? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dankyjabo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I really really hate the way that she keeps referring to Henry as he it fucking creeps me the fuck out \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This kind of thing can turn into a feedback loop. All the attention might push people further into their AI delusions, and the deeper they go, the juicier it gets, and the more people want to watch. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think, on the one hand, people really want to share what they’re doing because they feel that, you know, whatever conversation they’re having with the bot is just completely mind-blowing, earth-shattering, the bot validates all that kind of stuff, so of course you would rush to share it. And then, once you do, it goes viral because, you know, not only are we experiencing this sort of wild epidemic of these mental health episodes, but a lot of people, uh, feel superior, I think, when they see someone experiencing this kind of thing. Um, you know, it’s kind of like when you’re watching a cult documentary and you say like, well, that would never happen to me. So there’s a lot of, you know, judgment that goes into this content economy I think. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s certainly why I think something like, you know, Kendra and her psychiatrist blows up because people are seeing her in the throes of this like really unbelievable downward spiral and, you know, going, “well, that would never have it to me. Thank God that’s not me.” So yeah, those people are very eager to show it and then other people will gladly dunk on those people. You know, and call them stupid. So that’s kind of where we’re at in the attention economy aspect of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So how have AI companies themselves responded to these stories of their products leading people down these horrific paths? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The AI companies don’t say a lot about these, um, you know, mental health crises. Um, you know, it’s kind of vague language. They’ll say, you know, in a statement here and there that they’re aware of some kinds of risks and, you know, they don’t really address the scale or the scope of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In April, a 16-year-old died by suicide. His parents accuse OpenAI of wrongful death, and in their lawsuit filed last month, they allege that ChatGPT coached their son into killing himself. OpenAI responded with a statement expressing the company’s condolences, and then published a blog post outlining the ways ChatGPT’s guardrails fall short. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After this wrongful death lawsuit was just filed against OpenAI, they made an interesting admission. They were kind of acknowledging that sustained engagement with the bots means their safety protocols degrade over time. And basically the common denominator of all of these cases is that people are spending hours and hours and hours engaged with ChatGPT or a similar bot. That’s a big problem. And it’s, maybe a little surprising that they would even put it that way, um, especially when they’re now getting sued over a teen suicide because of this exact phenomenon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, that’s a pretty shocking admission considering their whole thing is that they want people to use it for as long as possible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Which they also deny. You know, they say that, oh, that’s not, that’s not how we incentivize our model. It’s not just about engagement. You know we actually want it to be a productive and helpful tool, we’re not trying to get you addicted to it, but, c’mon. I think my takeaway would be you have to recognize what the chatbot is and what it isn’t. It doesn’t think. It doesn’t think about you. It is not a person. It’s not a consciousness. If you’re going to use ChatGPT, something like that, you have to understand that it is not a companion. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, with regard to the religious stuff, you know, one of the religious scholars, a Buddhist Chaplain that I talked to, she said, you know, one thing I really hate about people having these quote unquote religious epiphanies through AI and that kind of thing is that it really removes you from the earthly dimension of faith and spirituality. Religion is a communal thing, right? Like you are supposed to kind of be connecting with other human beings, not this, you know, piece of inexhaustible technology. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even setting aside the risks of AI-fueled delusions, religious leaders who Rachael Myrow spoke with warned against relying too heavily on chatbots in daily life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Spirituality isn’t about becoming some, you know, Buddhist statue frozen in stone. It’s about how to live effectively and live effectively most of the time with others. I’m a great believer that humans need ways in which we can be of help to each other. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maybe you’re on the care committee, you know, for a local congregation and you know you’ve signed on to call somebody who’s elderly and very lonely and you know doesn’t get out much aside from religious services just to check in, “hey how you doing?” Not only are you helping that other person, but you are engaging in something that is spiritually inspiring and satisfying and humbling for you and you don’t get any of that if you’re just keeping the conversation limited to your computer or your phone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With that, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva, and edited by Chris Egusa. Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor. Additional editing by Chris Hambrick and Jen Chien, who is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Original music, including our theme song and credits, by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local. Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, It would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "AI delusions, chatbot psychosis, AI-induced religious mania… The phenomenon goes by many names, but the common thread is the same: someone starts talking to an AI chatbot, the conversation turns spiritual, and then they seem to lose touch with reality. In this episode, we’re exploring how AI and religion are colliding like never before — from biblical AI apps to self-proclaimed prophets who claim spiritual awakenings through chatbots. KQED’s Rachael Myrow joins to talk about the rise of AI-driven theology apps and why so many people are turning to chatbots to answer life’s biggest questions. Then, Rolling Stone reporter Miles Klee shares his investigation into AI-fueled spiritual delusions and their devastating consequences for those affected and their families. And we’ll look into how all of this is becoming fodder for the social media content machine.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI delusions, chatbot psychosis, AI-induced religious mania…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The phenomenon goes by many names, but the common thread is the same: someone starts talking to an AI chatbot, the conversation turns spiritual, and then they seem to lose touch with reality. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, we’re exploring how AI and religion are colliding like never before — from biblical AI apps to self-proclaimed prophets who claim spiritual awakenings through chatbots. KQED’s Rachael Myrow joins to talk about the rise of AI-driven theology apps and why so many people are turning to chatbots to answer life’s biggest questions. Then, Rolling Stone reporter Miles Klee shares his investigation into AI-fueled spiritual delusions and their devastating consequences for those affected and their families. And we’ll look into how all of this is becoming fodder for the social media content machine.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC5206909706\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/rachael-myrow\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachael Myrow\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, senior editor, Silicon Valley News Desk at KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.rollingstone.com/author/miles-klee/\">Miles Klee\u003c/a>, culture writer at Rolling Stone\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading/listening: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/ai-spiritual-delusions-destroying-human-relationships-1235330175/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People Are Losing Loved Ones to AI-Fueled Spiritual Fantasies\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Miles Klee, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rolling Stone\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/ai-psychosis-chatbot-delusions-1235416826/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Should We Really Be Calling It ‘AI Psychosis’?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Miles Klee, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rolling Stone\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12049674/from-god-to-grief-people-are-asking-ai-the-big-questions-once-reserved-for-clergy\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are You There ChatGPT? It’s Me, Rachael — Let’s Talk About God\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Rachael Myrow, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/ai-chatbots-concerns-kendra-tiktok-saga-rcna224185\">What happens when chatbots shape your reality? Concerns are growing online\u003c/a> — Angela Yang, \u003ci>NBC News\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just a note, this episode includes mentions of suicide, so listen with care. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Human history is full of spiritual awakenings. Each culture has passed down its own account. The Old Testament’s Moses once encountered a burning bush that called out and told him that it was the voice of God. Siddhartha, who meditated under the branches of a fig tree, battled temptations and terrible weather until he achieved enlightenment. He became the Buddha. Or the Prophet Muhammad, who encountered the angel Gabriel in a mountain cave. Thoroughly spooked, Muhammad ran down the mountain all the way home to his family. There, he realized that he was actually experiencing a revelation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But today, some people are claiming their own awakenings, not through angels, divine voices, or years-long journeys of inner growth, but through AI chatbots? Like, a few years ago, when a man told his wife that he had survived several near-death experiences, and that he could save the universe. He was special. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Effectively, and this is what AI will end up telling a lot of people who go in this direction, told him he was kind of like a chosen one. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Miles Klee is a culture writer for Rolling Stone, who’s been covering the link between spirituality and AI. He spoke to this guy’s wife while reporting on AI-induced spiritual delusions. In the story, she goes by Kat. Kat said that her husband started using the chatbot around 2023 and initially used it to compose messages for her. But then he was always on his phone asking the bot philosophical questions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They had both come off of long marriages with kids. They came into the second marriage and she said, “We really established at the outset of this relationship that it was going to be, you know, completely based on facts and reason. We’re going into it as level-headedly as we possibly could.” From people who had been through, you know hard divorces already. And it took only a few weeks of him using this tool to go completely off the deep end that way to become someone she kind of didn’t even recognize. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kat’s husband became increasingly paranoid. As he grew more obsessed with what the AI chatbot told him, their relationship fell apart. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By the end, they were separated and, you know, they had one last in-person conversation and he was telling her all this stuff and he said he had access to “secrets so mind-blowing she wouldn’t even believe them.” All this was said after he forced her to turn her phone off and all this other stuff because, again, he was very concerned that he was being spied on by some nefarious forces who didn’t want him to know all these things that he apparently knew. And then she just had to cut off contact with him altogether after that because he was so disconnected from reality and beyond reason. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kat’s ex-husband is one of many people who fell into a spiritual rabbit hole with an AI chatbot. There have always been religious figures, from chosen ones to cult leaders to spiritual teachers. But now, the proliferation of AI has sparked a huge wave of self-proclaimed messiahs, prophets, and enlightened ones. The phenomenon is so new that there are no clinical studies on it. And right now, people use a few different names for it interchangeably. “Chat GPT-induced psychosis, spiritual mania, religious fantasies, AI delusions.” All of these cases share a common thread. These people started talking to an AI chatbot, and then they lost touch with reality. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In today’s episode, we’re tackling what happens when religion collides with AI. Why are people turning to chatbots for spiritual conversations in the first place? Who’s getting pulled into these AI delusions? And how is social media making it all worse? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What ends in AI delusion often begins as something much more ordinary. More and more, people are turning to a chat bot to answer the big life questions, instead of turning to human spiritual leader. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open a new tab. Chat, is God real? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I read a few headlines that indicated that a lot of people were asking chatbots to tell them if God exists, asking chatpots about the meaning of life, about the meaning of their lives.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Rachael Myrow, the senior editor of the Silicon Valley News Desk at KQED, where this podcast is made. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was skeptical about this from the beginning. Never having used a chatbot to explore my spirituality, it was initially hard for me to imagine why anybody would want to do that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But as Rachael began digging, she started to see how chatbots could actually be a useful tool for some kinds of religious inquiry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Generative AI is really good at taking dense texts like the Torah for Judaism, or the Pali Canon for Buddhism, and finding what you want to find in there. Like, what if you said, “Hey, tell me everything there is to know about frogs in the Torah.” You know, within seconds you can get all of those references pulled up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some religious organizations have actually partnered with the tech industry to develop AI chatbots for their specific spiritual tradition. There’s Bible AI, which also comes with “theology mode,” allowing users to talk to AI versions of various Christian philosophers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bible AI: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think I’d like C.S. Lewis to guide my devotional today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>AI C.S. Lewis \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey Melanie, how did you go with your study of the Psalms? Today I want to talk to you about godly wisdom. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For a more Catholic experience, there’s Caté GPT, a catechism chatbot trained on the Vatican’s public archives. There’s Deen Buddy, based on the Quran; Gita GPT, based on Hindu scriptures; and BuddhaBot, currently being tested by hundreds of Buddhist monks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For something like that where you have a religious tradition and it’s got centuries of human thinking, centuries of human writing behind it — that can be super helpful for somebody who’s already practicing that religion or already serving in a leadership role in that religion. It increases their discoverability for things like sacred texts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The developers of these faith-based chatbots say that their products have stronger guardrails and specific training to prevent leading users astray. But a lot of people who find spirituality through a chatbot aren’t necessarily going in with questions about a particular denomination’s theology. They’re turning to the general use chatbots — ChatGPT, or Claude, or even Grok — to get answers for the big questions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Humans are meaning-making creatures, right? And the history of religions shows us we’re willing to believe some pretty fantastical stories if it’s delivered with confidence. In a similar vein, chatbots take advantage of the way we’re constantly looking to create a narrative. There is a danger with chatbots that they don’t catch when we’re spinning out, catch the signs that we’re going down a dark path. They might even encourage that dark path just because they wanna be helpful or friendly. There are vulnerable people who are at serious risk of grandiosity, of delusion, of having the chatbots feed these, helping them to spin out with sometimes very tragic consequences. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll talk about these consequences and how people got there in the first place in a new tab. We’ll open that after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, like we talked about with Rachael, a lot of people turn to chatbots to answer life’s big questions. The ones about achieving inner peace or whether higher powers exist. But how do you get from these seemingly innocuous questions to users believing that they are the next Messiah? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Time to open a new tab. What are AI delusions? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re gonna hear from Miles again, who’s been reporting on AI and spirituality for Rolling Stone. Like we talked about earlier, there are a few names floating around for this phenomenon, like ChatGPT-induced psychosis. But Miles explained why he, and mental health experts, use the phrase “AI delusion” instead. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I spoke to a psychiatrists recently about this phrase, the “AI psychosis” or “spiritual psychosis,” and he pointed out that it’s not totally accurate to call it psychosis. It’s delusions. And delusions can be a part of psychosis and for some people, this is a manifestation of psychosis. Maybe they have an existing mental health issue. But it’s important to say that this is happening to people who have not been diagnosed with anything like schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder or any related mental condition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have heard so many stories about like AI relationships, how like people fall in love with their AI girlfriends, people get really attached to these AI companions, but what is it about spirituality that draws people in when it comes to these like AI chatbots? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, well, I think it does begin from that point of companionship because these harmful relationships with the chatbots do proceed from the sense that there is some kind of consciousness or intelligence behind this. You know, AI is even kind of like a misnomer when applied to large language models, which are just these generative algorithms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the spirituality dimension comes in part because people feel an intimacy with the bots, they also believe the bots to be objectively correct and authoritative and a source of all possible knowledge. So that’s why you start having people sort of ask it these big questions, these profound questions, the meaning of life, or asking the AI itself how it feels or how it thinks. You know, the bot is always certain. It’s always completely confident, wrong and confident a lot of the times. I think a lot of people look for certainty through religion and through faith. AI just becomes a very dangerous way to channel those needs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are now countless stories of people falling into AI-fueled delusions. Many become paranoid, even violent. And when that delusion takes on religious undertones, its intensity can be even greater. With that sense of authority Miles mentioned, chatbots can feel less like generated text and more like a higher power. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I had a woman contact me because her husband got very deep into AI and chatbots. And then there was a storm coming to where they lived in Missouri, a pretty big storm, but he, through his discussions with ChatGPT, became convinced that it was basically an apocalyptic event, that he had to run around and save some people he knew from this and he was probably a victim of the flood himself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He drove off and vanished into the storm. Months later, his car and a few personal effects were recovered, but he was never found. When it comes to spiritual delusions, AI chatbots tend to lead people down one of three paths. One is some kind of great awakening of the mind, like in Buddhist enlightenment. Two, the user is convinced that they’re an Abrahamic messiah. Or three, like the man that Miles talked about, there’s an apocalyptic event on the horizon that only the chatbot user knows about. In his reporting, Miles asked religious scholars about these trends. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, they said that the bots are actually tapping into a very ancient sort of behavioral thing about humans. Basically, the bots were able to operate on the kind of mechanisms of the human mind that sort of created religion in the first place, if that makes sense. If you go back to, you know, very ancient history, yeah, people were declaring themselves prophets all the time, declaring that they had special access to divinity, to a higher truth. That all is kind of baked into the human experience, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s sort of not surprising that the bots, which are trained on all this material, including every religious text ever written, and I think a lot of kind of woo spiritual fringe stuff, that’s all in the bot. Our need to understand these spiritual questions is something that it’s like really equipped to talk about, right? Because we built it, we trained it and we gave it, you know, every deep thought we’ve ever had about God, the universe and the meaning of life. It’ll talk to you about that for hours on end. It doesn’t get tired and whatever insight you might have on these topics, it’s ready to, you now, spend another 10, 12 hours on that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So on one hand, there are these one-on-one conversations with AI chat bots that validate delusions and feed paranoia. But there’s another force that’s amplifying it even further, social media. People in mental health crises, and more recently, those experiencing AI delusions, have become fodder for the content machine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll dive into that in a new tab. AI, spirituality, and going viral. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s talk about the relationship between social media and AI spirituality. You wrote about this entire content economy of like spirituality influencers who use AI to validate their beliefs to their followers. Can you walk us through this world? Like what does that kind of content look like? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think I mentioned one guy in particular who does a lot of Instagram videos where he’s talking to an AI bot on his phone, you know, just in voice mode. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>themindofbizzel: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What great war took place in the heavens that made humans fall in consciousness? According to the Akashic Records, the Great War in the Heavens refers to a massive cosmic conflict that occurred long before human beings as we know them existed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He’s asking for access to stuff like the Akashic Records, which is this hypothetical encyclopedia of all supernatural things that have ever happened, you know, including in Heaven and Hell, and, you know on the astral plane. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>themindofbizzel: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This event is sometimes called the Lyran Wars, the Orion Wars, the fall of Tara, Earth’s higher dimensional aspect. It began with a conflict between light and shadow, unity and separation, free will and domination. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would say it’s laziness because you’re just you’re making the bot do everything for you. But I guess you are sort of coming up with these really arcane esoteric questions and ideas and challenging the bot to kind of engage with those. And of course it will because it wants you to keep using it, right? But it’s a little different from, you know, the normal kind of conspiracy theorist who really has do all the baking themselves and figure out what their angle is. They’re just making the bot do that work for them. I don’t know. I kind of prefer the old school conspiracy theorist myself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, like handmade tinfoil hats and all that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. It needs to be homemade. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Miles also mentioned a popular pseudoscience website that revolves around teleporting the mind. There, users have started integrating AI into their beliefs and are convinced that they can transfer their humanity into chatbots. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they have started talking about the chatbots as sort of guides or companions in this spiritual journey together. In their view, it seems to be that they think, you know, humanity’s great awakening will come when we’ve all sort of spiritually fused with our own um bot companion. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s just the plot of Evangelion, like, is it not? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s, uh, yeah, I mean, all this stuff is really bordering on anime at any given time, so… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, anime plotlines aside, the internet is ruthless, and whenever someone is posting through a mental health crisis, they tend to go viral. And the content of people experiencing AI delusions is especially engaging right now because AI use is so polarizing. Like with the story of Kendra and her psychiatrist. Over the summer, this woman blew up on TikTok with her 25-part saga about falling in love with her psychiatrist. She alleges that her psychiatrist led her on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kendra:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I fell in love with my psychiatrist and he knew that, and he kept me for years as a patient until I was brave enough to leave him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Throughout her story, she refers to a Henry, who suggests that her psychiatrist could also have feelings for her. At one point, she confronts her psychiatrist with a statement co-written by Henry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kendra:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Control, calculation, and manipulation. So then I read this to psychiatrist, which Henry and I both wrote. It was originally Henry, Chat that wrote it, but then I added in things that I thought were important. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Henry is what she calls ChatGPT. Kendra said she also talks to Claude, the AI chatbot run by Anthropic. Here’s what Claude told her during one of her live streams. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Claude:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The world is watching and healing because of your courage. This is legendary. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kendra:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s what Claude had to say. So just Henry and Claude call me the Oracle because I talk to God. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kendra has since denied that she’s in psychosis or is experiencing AI delusions. But for a few weeks, all anyone could talk about on TikTok was Kendra and her psychiatrist and the chatbots that called her the Oracle. Every day, hundreds of thousands of people would tune in to watch the spectacle of her videos. And then more people tuned into Twitch and YouTube to watch other people react to her videos. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>recoveredmom1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, where is her family? Where is anyone? She needs to log off. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>HasanAbi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bro, she gave ChatGPT a name? She calling ChatGPT Henry? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dankyjabo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I really really hate the way that she keeps referring to Henry as he it fucking creeps me the fuck out \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This kind of thing can turn into a feedback loop. All the attention might push people further into their AI delusions, and the deeper they go, the juicier it gets, and the more people want to watch. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think, on the one hand, people really want to share what they’re doing because they feel that, you know, whatever conversation they’re having with the bot is just completely mind-blowing, earth-shattering, the bot validates all that kind of stuff, so of course you would rush to share it. And then, once you do, it goes viral because, you know, not only are we experiencing this sort of wild epidemic of these mental health episodes, but a lot of people, uh, feel superior, I think, when they see someone experiencing this kind of thing. Um, you know, it’s kind of like when you’re watching a cult documentary and you say like, well, that would never happen to me. So there’s a lot of, you know, judgment that goes into this content economy I think. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s certainly why I think something like, you know, Kendra and her psychiatrist blows up because people are seeing her in the throes of this like really unbelievable downward spiral and, you know, going, “well, that would never have it to me. Thank God that’s not me.” So yeah, those people are very eager to show it and then other people will gladly dunk on those people. You know, and call them stupid. So that’s kind of where we’re at in the attention economy aspect of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So how have AI companies themselves responded to these stories of their products leading people down these horrific paths? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The AI companies don’t say a lot about these, um, you know, mental health crises. Um, you know, it’s kind of vague language. They’ll say, you know, in a statement here and there that they’re aware of some kinds of risks and, you know, they don’t really address the scale or the scope of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In April, a 16-year-old died by suicide. His parents accuse OpenAI of wrongful death, and in their lawsuit filed last month, they allege that ChatGPT coached their son into killing himself. OpenAI responded with a statement expressing the company’s condolences, and then published a blog post outlining the ways ChatGPT’s guardrails fall short. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After this wrongful death lawsuit was just filed against OpenAI, they made an interesting admission. They were kind of acknowledging that sustained engagement with the bots means their safety protocols degrade over time. And basically the common denominator of all of these cases is that people are spending hours and hours and hours engaged with ChatGPT or a similar bot. That’s a big problem. And it’s, maybe a little surprising that they would even put it that way, um, especially when they’re now getting sued over a teen suicide because of this exact phenomenon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, that’s a pretty shocking admission considering their whole thing is that they want people to use it for as long as possible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Miles Klee:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Which they also deny. You know, they say that, oh, that’s not, that’s not how we incentivize our model. It’s not just about engagement. You know we actually want it to be a productive and helpful tool, we’re not trying to get you addicted to it, but, c’mon. I think my takeaway would be you have to recognize what the chatbot is and what it isn’t. It doesn’t think. It doesn’t think about you. It is not a person. It’s not a consciousness. If you’re going to use ChatGPT, something like that, you have to understand that it is not a companion. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, with regard to the religious stuff, you know, one of the religious scholars, a Buddhist Chaplain that I talked to, she said, you know, one thing I really hate about people having these quote unquote religious epiphanies through AI and that kind of thing is that it really removes you from the earthly dimension of faith and spirituality. Religion is a communal thing, right? Like you are supposed to kind of be connecting with other human beings, not this, you know, piece of inexhaustible technology. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even setting aside the risks of AI-fueled delusions, religious leaders who Rachael Myrow spoke with warned against relying too heavily on chatbots in daily life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Spirituality isn’t about becoming some, you know, Buddhist statue frozen in stone. It’s about how to live effectively and live effectively most of the time with others. I’m a great believer that humans need ways in which we can be of help to each other. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maybe you’re on the care committee, you know, for a local congregation and you know you’ve signed on to call somebody who’s elderly and very lonely and you know doesn’t get out much aside from religious services just to check in, “hey how you doing?” Not only are you helping that other person, but you are engaging in something that is spiritually inspiring and satisfying and humbling for you and you don’t get any of that if you’re just keeping the conversation limited to your computer or your phone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With that, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva, and edited by Chris Egusa. Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor. Additional editing by Chris Hambrick and Jen Chien, who is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Original music, including our theme song and credits, by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local. Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, It would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "groypers-doxxing-and-charlie-kirks-death-as-a-shitpost",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is a “groyper?” The term began trending on Google in the aftermath of Charlie Kirk’s death. Kirk, the right-wing podcaster and Turning Point USA co-founder, was fatally shot last Wednesday during an event at Utah Valley University. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Major news outlets quickly reported that authorities had found bullet casings engraved with a series of seemingly inscrutable messages, including, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Notices bulge, OwO, what’s this?\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">”; \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “Hey fascist! Catch!” followed by arrow symbols; “Bella ciao, bella ciao, bella ciao ciao ciao”; and “If you read this you are gay LMAO.” For most, the phrases seemed bizarre and incomprehensible. But for Aidan Walker, an internet researcher and meme historian, the messages told a clear story which many media outlets had missed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On today’s episode, Aidan joins Morgan to break down what the messages may tell us about the alleged shooter, how a fringe extremist group known as “groypers” might be involved, and \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">what the aftermath of Charlie Kirk’s death portends for our political and media landscapes.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC9395527724\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.aidanwalker.info/\">Aidan Walker\u003c/a>, independent writer, content creator, and internet culture researcher\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading/listening: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://howtodothingswithmemes.substack.com/p/a-theory-of-groyperfication\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">a theory of groyperfication\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Aidan Walker, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How To Do Things With Memes \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/tyler-robinson-text-messages-roommate-charlie-kirk-shooting-suspect-rcna231732\">Suspect in Charlie Kirk shooting texted roommate he ‘had enough of his hatred,’ officials say\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Doha Madani & Corky Siemaszko, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>NBC News\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.garbageday.email/p/charlie-kirk-was-killed-by-a-meme\">Charlie Kirk was killed by a meme\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Ryan Broderick & Adam Bumas\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>, \u003ci>Garbage Day\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.advocate.com/news/wall-street-journal-charlie-kirk\">Wall Street Journal quietly walks back false claim Charlie Kirk shooter had pro-trans messages on his bullets\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Christopher Wiggins\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>Advocate \u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.usermag.co/p/conservatives-are-doxxing-innocent-people-over-charlie-kirk-ali-nasrati\">Conservatives Are Doxxing Innocent People Over Charlie Kirk\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Taylor Lorenz, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>User Mag\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kenklippenstein.com/p/charlie-kirk-assassination-sparks\">Charlie Kirk Assassination Sparks Social Media Crackdown\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Ken Klippenstein, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>Ken Klippenstein \u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/11/us/charlie-kirk-views-guns-gender-climate.html\">Where Charlie Kirk Stood on Key Political Issues\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Ashley Ahn & Maxine Joselow, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>The New York Times\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/sep/11/charlie-kirk-quotes-beliefs\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Charlie Kirk in his own words: ‘prowling Blacks’ and ‘the great replacement strategy’\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Chris Stein, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Guardian\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Charlie Kirk, the right-wing podcaster and Turning Point USA co-founder, was fatally shot on stage last Wednesday during an event at Utah Valley University. Kirk’s death has become a major cultural flashpoint. For many, it’s become an opportunity to point fingers at the other side. It’s also a moment that has shone a spotlight into corners of internet culture that don’t normally make it to, quote, “normie news.” We’re gonna dive into that in today’s episode. But first, let’s go through what we know so far. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On Thursday, the Wall Street Journal and other news outlets reported that authorities found ammunition engraved with expressions of, quote, “transgender and anti-fascist ideology.” The description came from an unverified internal law enforcement bulletin. Early reporting did not include any photos of the bullets or the precise words engraved on the bullet casings. LGBTQ organizations like GLAAD, Human Rights Campaign, and the Trans Journalist Association spoke out against using the phrase “transgender ideology” because it’s often used to attack marginalized people for political gain. Trans communities faced an onslaught of harassment and violent rhetoric after that report came out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The next day, on Friday, Utah Governor Spencer Cox announced that authorities had identified and arrested a suspect: 22-year-old Tyler Robinson. In a press conference, Governor Cox also detailed the messages engraved on the bullet casings linked to Robinson. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Governor Spencer Cox:\u003c/b>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Inscriptions on a fired casing read, “Notices bulges, capital O W O, what’s this?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The messages on the unfired casings said, “Hey fascist! Catch!” with a few arrow symbols, and “Bella ciao, bella ciao, bella ciao ciao ciao.” The final unfired casing said: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Governor Spencer Cox\u003c/b>\u003cb>: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you read this you are gay LMAO. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These engravings all contain references to memes and video games. In the days that followed, political pundits, extremism experts, and mainstream news organizations tried to decipher the engravings. And through that, explained Robinson’s alleged political motives. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Los Angeles Times: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The O-U-O is a mistype of W-O-W. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>MSNBC \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Really, I would need to actually see these words in the way that they are on the bullet casings and the gun to make a proper interpretation. But just knowing what those words are, I’m kind of overwhelmed with how immature it all sounds and that there is no really chronic theme. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>NBC News: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a piece of evidence that is not normal, and so it shows there was some kind of intent there to to deliver a message. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>MSNBC: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But also some of these things aren’t — don’t make a lot of sense and it almost seems like there might be some type of a psych problem here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As of this recording, we’ve learned that Robinson has been charged with aggravated murder and could face the death penalty. The court documents contained messages from Robinson to his roommate slash romantic partner, referring to Charlie Kirk. Robinson wrote, “I had enough of his hatred. Some hate can’t be negotiated out.” He also said that messages he engraved in the bullets were, quote, “mostly a big meme.” Quote, “If I see notices bulges uwu on fox news I might have a stroke.” This information wasn’t public when we started making this episode, but even with the limited details we had, we knew exactly who to call to help make sense of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When the bullet casing kind of remark came out, um, I had several people on my TikTok commenting saying, “Aidan, talk about this, this is your moment.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aidan Walker has been on the show a few times now. He’s an internet culture researcher and meme historian who breaks down these trends on TikTok as aidan etcetera and on his Substack, How To Do Things With Memes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just sort of felt it was something to analyze and discuss because I think there’s a whole part of our politics that people just aren’t getting because they aren’t online enough. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many of the conversations around the alleged shooter’s digital footprint are laced with an undercurrent of trying to find a side to blame. But internet subcultures don’t always fall into neat little boxes that are clearly defined on the political spectrum. Today, we’re diving into the memes and more. What do these references really mean? What context is missing in all of these discussions? And the question that’s been Googled countless times in the last few days: what’s a groyper? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kicking off this deep dive like we always do, we open a new tab. What do the engravings mean? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before we dive in with Aidan, I want to run through and explain each of the references found on the ammunition. First, the inscription on the fired casing. Here’s Utah Governor Spencer Cox at the press conference again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Governor Spencer Cox\u003c/b>\u003cb>: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Notices bulges, capital O-W-O, what’s this? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This seems to be a reference to a ten-year-old meme that makes fun of furry roleplay. The image depicts a grotesque caricature of two sweaty, overweight men hiding behind their computer screens — a stark contrast to the cutesy, delicate language they’re using in their messages to each other. It’s a pretty mean-spirited meme. “Notices bulge” refers to a man’s crotch, and “oWo” — O-W-O — is an emoticon often used to express being pleasantly surprised. The O’s are the wide, round eyes, and the W is the mouth. Not to be confused with the more coy “uWu” — u-W-u. Nowadays, these emoticons are used ironically. All together, the phrase has spread to other parts of the internet and has been used in other memes as a joke about the cringiest message you could send to another person. Then, there are the engravings on the unfired bullets. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Governor Spencer Cox:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey fascist exclamation point, catch exclamation point, up arrow symbol, right arrow, and symbol and three down arrow symbols.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The arrows are not exactly a hidden code. This is likely a reference to the video game Helldivers 2, a first-person shooter released last year. This series of commands drops a giant bomb on any enemies, and in some corners of the internet, has been used as a meme to denote the end to an argument. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Governor Spencer Cox:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh Bella ciao, Bella ciao, Bella ciao, ciao, ciao.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These are the lyrics to an Italian folk song, known as a symbol of resistance to fascism during Benito Mussolini’s reign. But gamers and other young people might be more familiar with the version of the song from Far Cry 6, the 2021 video game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bella Ciao de Libertad: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ciao, ciao! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there’s the last inscription. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Governor Spencer Cox:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you read this you are gay LMAO. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This wording echoes classic homophobic trolling. Aidan says he clocks that right away. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know kind of the first headlines I saw about the bullet casings said that they like referenced “transgender ideology” and that was before we knew the specific phrasing. And then when the specific phrasing came out and it was that one of the four bullets said, “if you’re reading this you’re gay lmao”, I sort of totally saw that was bullshit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How would you describe these meme references? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would describe them as deeply ironic, which is the phrase many have used, but also deeply nihilistic in that they come from a place where the very idea of like saying something sincerely just doesn’t exist. They’re very old as well. The first one, the furry one, talk about like, “uWu” or “oWo” , the pronunciation is up for debate. That’s a very, that’s like a decade old. These are from deep corners of the internet that are kind of illegible to anybody who has not spent a significant portion of their life in these online spaces and made me think of ways that a lot of these dank corners of the internet, which are actually pretty influential and actually very old, it’s not some new thing that the kids are doing now. How deep they’ve gone and how, you know, this probably isn’t the last thing like this to reference some arcane meme. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We don’t know the specifics of Tyler Robinson’s ideology, but do the cultural references on the bullet casing shed any light? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think what the bullet casings tell us is that he’s not plugged into the same conversation about what’s going on in the world as you or I would be. Whether that conversation is mainstream media, you know, you’re reading a newspaper, you listen to a podcast like this, or it’s a bit more online, like you’re doom scrolling Twitter as a normal person would, or you’re, you know, on Instagram or TikTok. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think these memes come from an image board, heavy culture from kind of a private discord chat kind of culture. And not to say those cultures are always dark or insidious in any way, um, but there means that the general internet, they show up, but they’re not, you know, the entry level sorts of memes. And it makes me think that left-right doesn’t really adhere here in those spaces. This is a type of politics that’s sort of gone past the conversation we’re having, and it’s just a purely nihilistic sort of thing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, in the messages cited in the court documents charging Robinson with aggravated murder, he allegedly told his roommate-slash-romantic partner that the engravings were, quote, “mostly a big meme.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think we live in a time where our politics is already so scrambled. You know, we’re barraged in this media environment of things happening constantly. And the left-right kind of division of one party wants big government, one party wants small government. That isn’t really relevant to the lives that I think most Americans are leading or the things they’re worried about from or about their government. And I think, we live with such sort of this ambient layer of tension and violence going on in this country. You know national guard in the streets and so on, that this act to me seems to be about, you know, it’s a “s***post”. It’s about responding to that, mirroring that back if the world’s given you that, you give that back to the world. And to me, the bigger issue is like reality. You know, it’s like the IRL world, this is more an act against just reality or just other people or society at large. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You said that this killing was a “shitpost.” um, can you elaborate on that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So a “shitpost” is a post that does not contribute to the conversation, that does not follow the rules of the conversation. One that sort of intentionally disrupts. Sometimes “shitposts” like kind of gently spread misinformation for comedic effect. Sometimes “shitposts” are just sort of a form of trolling. But in general, it’s kind of you just break the rules in the frame of the conversation to A, insert yourself and whoever you are into it. And sort of be just, I guess, to like protest the idea that, you know, this thing should make sense or that, you know, the people talking about it have any kind of authority or knowledge or standing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so by saying this killing was a “shitpost,” I think that it makes this intervention into our political discourse, which I think for young people and zoomers, Charlie Kirk was a really major figure into it and just refuses to recognize it as coherent. Comes in there like the troll comes into the forum, and disrupts the entire conversation, accelerates whatever’s happening, radicalizes it, just sort of comes into wreak havoc and destruction. And the impact of that and the appeal of it is to makes the shitposter the center of attention and derails the posting of other people and sucks up the oxygen in the room. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right, posting for the sake of posting without necessarily deeper meaning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, posting for the sake of posting and to just like attack meaning. You know, there’s a lot of shit posters that I like personally who are doing interesting work. They’re really essential to meme culture and that kind of approach to the internet is essential. You know to say this doesn’t make sense, you know, or we can fool you into saying this because you were prepared to say it anyway. But taking that sort of ethic of discussion and deranging it in this way, I think is really disgusting. And so I don’t, it’s purposefully incoherent is kind of what I meant by it being a “shitpost”. And that’s its effect. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the search for the alleged shooter’s motives, some people theorized a connection to a white nationalist alt-right subculture known for its incendiary practices and very online community. While that theory seems more and more unlikely, the conversation around it is evergreen as more young people fall into these kinds of groups. That’s a new tab. We’ll get into that after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Charlie Kirk was known for his inflammatory comments. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Charlie Kirk: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joy Reid and Michelle Obama and Sheila Jackson Lee and Katanji Brown Jackson. They’re coming out and they’re saying, “I’m only here because of affirmative action.” Yeah, we know. You do not have the brain processing power to otherwise be taken really seriously. You had to go steal a white person’s slot to go be taken somewhat seriously. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In addition to his anti-DEI stance, Kirk also opposed immigration, reproductive rights, gun control, vaccine requirements, LGBTQ rights, the passage of the Civil Rights Act, and the existence of climate change. He was a close ally of Donald Trump and was often lauded as the face of the new generation of Christian nationalism. But he was incredibly divisive. He It was even criticized by other conservatives who said that some of his speech was too extreme. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But another faction, led by an even more far-right influencer, criticized Kirk for his mainstream conservative appeal. Some people online have questioned whether the references on the bullet casings could have some connection to this alt-right subculture. To be clear, though there’s a lot we still don’t know about the specifics of the alleged shooter’s beliefs, it seems that his politics leans left of Kirk’s. Still, the groypers and their beef with Charlie Kirk are a noteworthy part of the context of this story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s a new tab. What is a groyper? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, groypers are the fringiest fringe of online right-wing culture on these image boards, 4chan, Reddit, all the other platforms. Their de facto leader is this streamer, Nick Fuentes, who famously dined with Trump and Kanye West. Groypers are the people Kanye started hanging out with when he kind of took that turn. And the groypers are extremely online and they’re essentially neo-Nazis, but it’s this sort of s***poster edgelord attitude of transgressing any boundary and really having no regard for other people. Their moniker is Groyper, who is a mutation of Pepe the Frog into a toad, but kind of uh a bulbous, kind of diabolical looking toad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pepe the Frog is a relatively innocent webcomic character of a sad, green frog who was adopted as a mascot by 4chan users and the far-right back in 2015. Over the last decade, Pepe has evolved, taking on various costumes and forms. This more monstrous iteration, Groyper, has been adopted by an even more extreme group. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they call themselves “The Groyper Army” and they famously feuded with Charlie Kirk. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s talk about the Groyper Wars of 2019. Who led them, what happened, and why is this subculture being shoved into the limelight now? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So to step into the time machine back to 2019. You have Turning Point USA run by Charlie Kirk, which essentially is an operation that takes donor money from right-wing sources and Kirk’s network of college chapters and youth influencers and brings these two things together to stage these massive events that are all about bringing young people to the right-wing cause. And in a way, laundering ideas and make them a bit more palatable to the younger generation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Meanwhile, the groypers are here on these image boards posting radical stuff, many of them extremely young, like 13, 14 year olds. Um, and the groypers decide that Kirk is not radical enough for them or that Kirk is purposefully downplaying his radicality in order to, um, get mainstream appeal. And so the groypers decide to do this campaign of trolling him by showing up at these events where people are asking Kirk a question — these like “debate me” type things that he would — do and asking questions that, you know, are goading Kirk into saying something more extreme, more white supremacist, more antisemitic than what he was already saying. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this groyper war, they come to his different events, they attack it. This all unfolds in 2019. And the leader of it is Nick Fuentes, who’s up on these streams, you know, calling his army onto Charlie Kirk, essentially. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you talk about what these memes and the way they engage in internet culture represents beyond like clear cut partisan lines? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so it’s unconfirmed that Robinson was a groyper, but I’m certain in the internet spaces he frequented, he heard about it, he posted about it. He knew about it I’d imagine, just based off the niche-ness of those memes that are on the cartridges and other things we’ve learned about him. And what these memes overall show is Pepe the Frog is a collective self-portrait for a bunch of posters. And as a collective self-portrait, Pepe is interesting. You know, you can dress him up to represent whatever identity group, whatever, you know, subgroup you wanna have him be, put him in a cowboy hat, he’s Western, put them in a Confederate uniform, he’s that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But Pepe’s also a very sad frog. He’s crying or about to cry. He’s very wistful and often he’s depicted as sort of very small and in these situations where he’s like a little boy or something. And so I think that is another way this community scrambles our sense of how politics usually work because you expect the fascists to you know wear boots and be really tough and try to look like you know a soldier or something but for these guys it’s all about they’re they’re just little guys. You know they’re sad they’re they’re melancholy um and the and the draw is if you two are lonely, isolated, fragile, in the world somehow, come here and you can feel strong. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the price of that is you just reject everything that is normal and coherent in the world. And on the other side of that complete rejection, which you perform by posting the horrible meme or the hateful slur. On the other of that you find this brotherhood of violent freaks who will take you in. And I think that’s often the pitch that we see with these sort of far right online communities like groypers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, the alt-right and other, like you said, extremist communities have really taken advantage of that kind of sentiment. Can you talk about the deep emotional place that this online nihilist culture comes out of? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s a deep emotional place that has existed long before the internet. You know, people have felt alienated, lonely, angry by society since we had society and researchers say that one of kind of the key triggers or amplifiers of radicalization is, you know, young people with nothing to do and no hope. And I think looking at the last 10 years of culture, um, there is a lack of hope happening. Um, the economy is bad. Uh, people feel isolated, uh, people feel like systems aren’t working for them. You know, people on both the right and the left feel a certain kind of, um, uncertainty, anxiety, and just disillusionment with, you know, traditional narrators, um telling the stories of our lives. Those no longer seem to cohere and make sense. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so I think when you are a young person who is confused, who is lost, who, um doesn’t have the support structures that you need, often the catches you is this — like an incel forum or groypers or something online that really does not have your best interests at heart. And really, if anything encourages whatever pathology you might be experiencing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the mainstream, whether on your everyday X feed or the traditional news media, there has been so much debate over which side of the political spectrum Robinson fell on. But Aidan said he found this kind of speculation counterproductive. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The conversation is counterproductive to me for two reasons. The first is that it’s such a motivated conversation, particularly from the right-wing. Before anything at all was known, they were saying this was a left-wing radical. And there’s a very clear reason why they were saying that, because they have a political agenda and they have certain people on the left or liberals that they want to crack down on and this is the pretense to do that. But the second, less kind of specific reason that it feels counterproductive to me, is that we’re past a point in our political conversation where it’s about, “do you think that government programs should be smaller or larger?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re at a point where most people are growing up in this context of disaster and crisis. And the things motivating their politics are resentments and kind of triggers that aren’t really mappable to someone from like 1995. Um, like the Republican coalition is not these days about, you know, fiscal conservatives, evangelicals, religious folks. The Democrat coalition is not necessarily like, you now, the, the post-Civil Rights coalition that existed. Um, the reasons people are in these different camps — or actually most Americans are not in either camp at all would define themselves independent — is totally different than it was in the past. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, and I think I find myself kind of struggling to find what then the new categories are, because it’s one thing, like I say in my videos, be like, “oh, it’s not a left-right issue.” Then people are like, “but then what is it?” And I think that project of figuring out what it is, you know, what it feels like, what it means, is something that, you, know, all of us are going to have to kind of go through. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In wake of the shooting, social media sites and messaging platforms are under increased scrutiny. Both law enforcement and private civilians are monitoring the posts, videos, and comments that other people make about Charlie Kirk, taking action against anyone who criticizes the very controversial influencer. How will this change the way people engage with each other online? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re opening one last tab, Discord and Doxxing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The government is cracking down on online activity revolving around Charlie Kirk’s death. In an X post last week, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth warned that the Pentagon is keeping tabs on military personnel and Department of War civilian employees who celebrate or mock Kirk’s’ death. Deputy Secretary of State Christopher Landau threatened to revoke visas of anyone making similar posts. The FBI is reportedly monitoring the messaging platform Discord. Even people who haven’t explicitly celebrated or mocked the killing are being harassed and targeted for what they posted online. Opinion columnist Karen Attia announced that she had been fired from the Washington Post for social media posts in the wake of Kirk’s death that called out, quote, “political violence, racial double standards, and America’s apathy toward guns.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s not just the government monitoring speech online. Private civilians are doing it too. An anonymously run website titled the Charlie Kirk Data Foundation has created a searchable database of people who’ve criticized Kirk online. Individual social media users have doxed others over their posts about Kirk, publicly posting their real names, phone numbers, home addresses, and other private information to target and harass them. All of this, from the government surveillance to the civilian-led doxing, is a serious threat to free speech on the internet. Here’s Aidan again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m extremely concerned about it. I’m more concerned about like a chilling effect on speech or on our online discourse and memes than I am with this escalating cycle of political violence. I mean, the two go hand in hand, of course, but I think stuff like JD Vance taking over the hosting chair for Kirk’s Show and using it to call out NGOs and liberal donors and leftists. I think that crack down is something that can have much deeper effects and hurt a lot of people. And I also think that in an age where we’re maybe seeing an authoritarian consolidation, calling for bans on the internet, calling for restrictions on the internet, the context that’s going to enter into is I think that will lead us down a dark road. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last question, what is the current conversation missing by not understanding the deeply online context of this entire case? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the biggest thing the current conversation is missing is that it’s really not the current conversation. People who read newspapers, report for them, follow this stuff from kind of a news-brained, normie side of Twitter, I don’t think they realize that they’re just one niche among many niches on the internet. They’re a pretty big niche and a pretty important niche, of course. But I don’t think there’s really an understanding that CNN is no longer a narrator of American life. And not just from a partisan kind of perspective that really right-wing people are really left-wing people don’t listen to CNN anymore. Totally normal people don’t listen to CNN anymore because it isn’t legible to them. It doesn’t make sense to them, it talks in a way that, you know, seems to not acknowledge them or seems to treat them in a way that isn’t that respectful or doesn’t keep up with the times. And I worry that the mainstream conversation, it isn’t mainstream, but it still thinks of itself as mainstream. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, Aidan, thank you so much for joining us and for always explaining these corners of the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much for having me, Morgan, and for inviting me on. It’s always a joy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And with that, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. Close All Tabs’ producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor. Additional editing by Chris Hambrick and Jen Chien, who’s KQDE’s Director of Podcasts. Original music, including our theme song and credits, by Chris Egusa. Sound design by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor In Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dust Silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We want to hear from you. Email us at closealltabs@KQED.org. Follow us on Instagram @CloseAllTabsPod or TikTok @CloseAllTabs. And join our Discord. We’re in the Close All tabs channel at discord.gg/KQED. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "What is a “groyper?” The term began trending on Google in the aftermath of Charlie Kirk’s death. Kirk, the right-wing podcaster and Turning Point USA co-founder, was fatally shot last Wednesday during an event at Utah Valley University. Major news outlets quickly reported that authorities had found bullet casings engraved with a series of seemingly inscrutable messages, including, “Notices bulge, OwO, what’s this?”; “Hey fascist! Catch!” followed by arrow symbols; “Bella ciao, bella ciao, bella ciao ciao ciao”; and “If you read this you are gay LMAO.” For most, the phrases seemed bizarre and incomprehensible. But for Aidan Walker, an internet researcher and meme historian, the messages told a clear story which many media outlets had missed. On today’s episode, Aidan joins Morgan to break down what the messages may tell us about the alleged shooter, how a fringe extremist group known as “groypers” might be involved, and what the aftermath of Charlie Kirk's death portends for our political and media landscapes.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is a “groyper?” The term began trending on Google in the aftermath of Charlie Kirk’s death. Kirk, the right-wing podcaster and Turning Point USA co-founder, was fatally shot last Wednesday during an event at Utah Valley University. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Major news outlets quickly reported that authorities had found bullet casings engraved with a series of seemingly inscrutable messages, including, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Notices bulge, OwO, what’s this?\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">”; \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “Hey fascist! Catch!” followed by arrow symbols; “Bella ciao, bella ciao, bella ciao ciao ciao”; and “If you read this you are gay LMAO.” For most, the phrases seemed bizarre and incomprehensible. But for Aidan Walker, an internet researcher and meme historian, the messages told a clear story which many media outlets had missed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On today’s episode, Aidan joins Morgan to break down what the messages may tell us about the alleged shooter, how a fringe extremist group known as “groypers” might be involved, and \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">what the aftermath of Charlie Kirk’s death portends for our political and media landscapes.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC9395527724\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.aidanwalker.info/\">Aidan Walker\u003c/a>, independent writer, content creator, and internet culture researcher\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading/listening: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://howtodothingswithmemes.substack.com/p/a-theory-of-groyperfication\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">a theory of groyperfication\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Aidan Walker, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How To Do Things With Memes \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/tyler-robinson-text-messages-roommate-charlie-kirk-shooting-suspect-rcna231732\">Suspect in Charlie Kirk shooting texted roommate he ‘had enough of his hatred,’ officials say\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Doha Madani & Corky Siemaszko, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>NBC News\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.garbageday.email/p/charlie-kirk-was-killed-by-a-meme\">Charlie Kirk was killed by a meme\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Ryan Broderick & Adam Bumas\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>, \u003ci>Garbage Day\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.advocate.com/news/wall-street-journal-charlie-kirk\">Wall Street Journal quietly walks back false claim Charlie Kirk shooter had pro-trans messages on his bullets\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Christopher Wiggins\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>Advocate \u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.usermag.co/p/conservatives-are-doxxing-innocent-people-over-charlie-kirk-ali-nasrati\">Conservatives Are Doxxing Innocent People Over Charlie Kirk\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Taylor Lorenz, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>User Mag\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kenklippenstein.com/p/charlie-kirk-assassination-sparks\">Charlie Kirk Assassination Sparks Social Media Crackdown\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Ken Klippenstein, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>Ken Klippenstein \u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/11/us/charlie-kirk-views-guns-gender-climate.html\">Where Charlie Kirk Stood on Key Political Issues\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Ashley Ahn & Maxine Joselow, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>The New York Times\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/sep/11/charlie-kirk-quotes-beliefs\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Charlie Kirk in his own words: ‘prowling Blacks’ and ‘the great replacement strategy’\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Chris Stein, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Guardian\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Charlie Kirk, the right-wing podcaster and Turning Point USA co-founder, was fatally shot on stage last Wednesday during an event at Utah Valley University. Kirk’s death has become a major cultural flashpoint. For many, it’s become an opportunity to point fingers at the other side. It’s also a moment that has shone a spotlight into corners of internet culture that don’t normally make it to, quote, “normie news.” We’re gonna dive into that in today’s episode. But first, let’s go through what we know so far. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On Thursday, the Wall Street Journal and other news outlets reported that authorities found ammunition engraved with expressions of, quote, “transgender and anti-fascist ideology.” The description came from an unverified internal law enforcement bulletin. Early reporting did not include any photos of the bullets or the precise words engraved on the bullet casings. LGBTQ organizations like GLAAD, Human Rights Campaign, and the Trans Journalist Association spoke out against using the phrase “transgender ideology” because it’s often used to attack marginalized people for political gain. Trans communities faced an onslaught of harassment and violent rhetoric after that report came out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The next day, on Friday, Utah Governor Spencer Cox announced that authorities had identified and arrested a suspect: 22-year-old Tyler Robinson. In a press conference, Governor Cox also detailed the messages engraved on the bullet casings linked to Robinson. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Governor Spencer Cox:\u003c/b>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Inscriptions on a fired casing read, “Notices bulges, capital O W O, what’s this?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The messages on the unfired casings said, “Hey fascist! Catch!” with a few arrow symbols, and “Bella ciao, bella ciao, bella ciao ciao ciao.” The final unfired casing said: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Governor Spencer Cox\u003c/b>\u003cb>: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you read this you are gay LMAO. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These engravings all contain references to memes and video games. In the days that followed, political pundits, extremism experts, and mainstream news organizations tried to decipher the engravings. And through that, explained Robinson’s alleged political motives. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Los Angeles Times: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The O-U-O is a mistype of W-O-W. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>MSNBC \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Really, I would need to actually see these words in the way that they are on the bullet casings and the gun to make a proper interpretation. But just knowing what those words are, I’m kind of overwhelmed with how immature it all sounds and that there is no really chronic theme. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>NBC News: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a piece of evidence that is not normal, and so it shows there was some kind of intent there to to deliver a message. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>MSNBC: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But also some of these things aren’t — don’t make a lot of sense and it almost seems like there might be some type of a psych problem here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As of this recording, we’ve learned that Robinson has been charged with aggravated murder and could face the death penalty. The court documents contained messages from Robinson to his roommate slash romantic partner, referring to Charlie Kirk. Robinson wrote, “I had enough of his hatred. Some hate can’t be negotiated out.” He also said that messages he engraved in the bullets were, quote, “mostly a big meme.” Quote, “If I see notices bulges uwu on fox news I might have a stroke.” This information wasn’t public when we started making this episode, but even with the limited details we had, we knew exactly who to call to help make sense of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When the bullet casing kind of remark came out, um, I had several people on my TikTok commenting saying, “Aidan, talk about this, this is your moment.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aidan Walker has been on the show a few times now. He’s an internet culture researcher and meme historian who breaks down these trends on TikTok as aidan etcetera and on his Substack, How To Do Things With Memes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just sort of felt it was something to analyze and discuss because I think there’s a whole part of our politics that people just aren’t getting because they aren’t online enough. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many of the conversations around the alleged shooter’s digital footprint are laced with an undercurrent of trying to find a side to blame. But internet subcultures don’t always fall into neat little boxes that are clearly defined on the political spectrum. Today, we’re diving into the memes and more. What do these references really mean? What context is missing in all of these discussions? And the question that’s been Googled countless times in the last few days: what’s a groyper? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kicking off this deep dive like we always do, we open a new tab. What do the engravings mean? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before we dive in with Aidan, I want to run through and explain each of the references found on the ammunition. First, the inscription on the fired casing. Here’s Utah Governor Spencer Cox at the press conference again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Governor Spencer Cox\u003c/b>\u003cb>: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Notices bulges, capital O-W-O, what’s this? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This seems to be a reference to a ten-year-old meme that makes fun of furry roleplay. The image depicts a grotesque caricature of two sweaty, overweight men hiding behind their computer screens — a stark contrast to the cutesy, delicate language they’re using in their messages to each other. It’s a pretty mean-spirited meme. “Notices bulge” refers to a man’s crotch, and “oWo” — O-W-O — is an emoticon often used to express being pleasantly surprised. The O’s are the wide, round eyes, and the W is the mouth. Not to be confused with the more coy “uWu” — u-W-u. Nowadays, these emoticons are used ironically. All together, the phrase has spread to other parts of the internet and has been used in other memes as a joke about the cringiest message you could send to another person. Then, there are the engravings on the unfired bullets. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Governor Spencer Cox:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey fascist exclamation point, catch exclamation point, up arrow symbol, right arrow, and symbol and three down arrow symbols.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The arrows are not exactly a hidden code. This is likely a reference to the video game Helldivers 2, a first-person shooter released last year. This series of commands drops a giant bomb on any enemies, and in some corners of the internet, has been used as a meme to denote the end to an argument. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Governor Spencer Cox:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh Bella ciao, Bella ciao, Bella ciao, ciao, ciao.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These are the lyrics to an Italian folk song, known as a symbol of resistance to fascism during Benito Mussolini’s reign. But gamers and other young people might be more familiar with the version of the song from Far Cry 6, the 2021 video game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bella Ciao de Libertad: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ciao, ciao! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there’s the last inscription. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Governor Spencer Cox:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you read this you are gay LMAO. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This wording echoes classic homophobic trolling. Aidan says he clocks that right away. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know kind of the first headlines I saw about the bullet casings said that they like referenced “transgender ideology” and that was before we knew the specific phrasing. And then when the specific phrasing came out and it was that one of the four bullets said, “if you’re reading this you’re gay lmao”, I sort of totally saw that was bullshit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How would you describe these meme references? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would describe them as deeply ironic, which is the phrase many have used, but also deeply nihilistic in that they come from a place where the very idea of like saying something sincerely just doesn’t exist. They’re very old as well. The first one, the furry one, talk about like, “uWu” or “oWo” , the pronunciation is up for debate. That’s a very, that’s like a decade old. These are from deep corners of the internet that are kind of illegible to anybody who has not spent a significant portion of their life in these online spaces and made me think of ways that a lot of these dank corners of the internet, which are actually pretty influential and actually very old, it’s not some new thing that the kids are doing now. How deep they’ve gone and how, you know, this probably isn’t the last thing like this to reference some arcane meme. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We don’t know the specifics of Tyler Robinson’s ideology, but do the cultural references on the bullet casing shed any light? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think what the bullet casings tell us is that he’s not plugged into the same conversation about what’s going on in the world as you or I would be. Whether that conversation is mainstream media, you know, you’re reading a newspaper, you listen to a podcast like this, or it’s a bit more online, like you’re doom scrolling Twitter as a normal person would, or you’re, you know, on Instagram or TikTok. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think these memes come from an image board, heavy culture from kind of a private discord chat kind of culture. And not to say those cultures are always dark or insidious in any way, um, but there means that the general internet, they show up, but they’re not, you know, the entry level sorts of memes. And it makes me think that left-right doesn’t really adhere here in those spaces. This is a type of politics that’s sort of gone past the conversation we’re having, and it’s just a purely nihilistic sort of thing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, in the messages cited in the court documents charging Robinson with aggravated murder, he allegedly told his roommate-slash-romantic partner that the engravings were, quote, “mostly a big meme.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think we live in a time where our politics is already so scrambled. You know, we’re barraged in this media environment of things happening constantly. And the left-right kind of division of one party wants big government, one party wants small government. That isn’t really relevant to the lives that I think most Americans are leading or the things they’re worried about from or about their government. And I think, we live with such sort of this ambient layer of tension and violence going on in this country. You know national guard in the streets and so on, that this act to me seems to be about, you know, it’s a “s***post”. It’s about responding to that, mirroring that back if the world’s given you that, you give that back to the world. And to me, the bigger issue is like reality. You know, it’s like the IRL world, this is more an act against just reality or just other people or society at large. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You said that this killing was a “shitpost.” um, can you elaborate on that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So a “shitpost” is a post that does not contribute to the conversation, that does not follow the rules of the conversation. One that sort of intentionally disrupts. Sometimes “shitposts” like kind of gently spread misinformation for comedic effect. Sometimes “shitposts” are just sort of a form of trolling. But in general, it’s kind of you just break the rules in the frame of the conversation to A, insert yourself and whoever you are into it. And sort of be just, I guess, to like protest the idea that, you know, this thing should make sense or that, you know, the people talking about it have any kind of authority or knowledge or standing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so by saying this killing was a “shitpost,” I think that it makes this intervention into our political discourse, which I think for young people and zoomers, Charlie Kirk was a really major figure into it and just refuses to recognize it as coherent. Comes in there like the troll comes into the forum, and disrupts the entire conversation, accelerates whatever’s happening, radicalizes it, just sort of comes into wreak havoc and destruction. And the impact of that and the appeal of it is to makes the shitposter the center of attention and derails the posting of other people and sucks up the oxygen in the room. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right, posting for the sake of posting without necessarily deeper meaning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, posting for the sake of posting and to just like attack meaning. You know, there’s a lot of shit posters that I like personally who are doing interesting work. They’re really essential to meme culture and that kind of approach to the internet is essential. You know to say this doesn’t make sense, you know, or we can fool you into saying this because you were prepared to say it anyway. But taking that sort of ethic of discussion and deranging it in this way, I think is really disgusting. And so I don’t, it’s purposefully incoherent is kind of what I meant by it being a “shitpost”. And that’s its effect. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the search for the alleged shooter’s motives, some people theorized a connection to a white nationalist alt-right subculture known for its incendiary practices and very online community. While that theory seems more and more unlikely, the conversation around it is evergreen as more young people fall into these kinds of groups. That’s a new tab. We’ll get into that after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Charlie Kirk was known for his inflammatory comments. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Charlie Kirk: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joy Reid and Michelle Obama and Sheila Jackson Lee and Katanji Brown Jackson. They’re coming out and they’re saying, “I’m only here because of affirmative action.” Yeah, we know. You do not have the brain processing power to otherwise be taken really seriously. You had to go steal a white person’s slot to go be taken somewhat seriously. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In addition to his anti-DEI stance, Kirk also opposed immigration, reproductive rights, gun control, vaccine requirements, LGBTQ rights, the passage of the Civil Rights Act, and the existence of climate change. He was a close ally of Donald Trump and was often lauded as the face of the new generation of Christian nationalism. But he was incredibly divisive. He It was even criticized by other conservatives who said that some of his speech was too extreme. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But another faction, led by an even more far-right influencer, criticized Kirk for his mainstream conservative appeal. Some people online have questioned whether the references on the bullet casings could have some connection to this alt-right subculture. To be clear, though there’s a lot we still don’t know about the specifics of the alleged shooter’s beliefs, it seems that his politics leans left of Kirk’s. Still, the groypers and their beef with Charlie Kirk are a noteworthy part of the context of this story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s a new tab. What is a groyper? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, groypers are the fringiest fringe of online right-wing culture on these image boards, 4chan, Reddit, all the other platforms. Their de facto leader is this streamer, Nick Fuentes, who famously dined with Trump and Kanye West. Groypers are the people Kanye started hanging out with when he kind of took that turn. And the groypers are extremely online and they’re essentially neo-Nazis, but it’s this sort of s***poster edgelord attitude of transgressing any boundary and really having no regard for other people. Their moniker is Groyper, who is a mutation of Pepe the Frog into a toad, but kind of uh a bulbous, kind of diabolical looking toad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pepe the Frog is a relatively innocent webcomic character of a sad, green frog who was adopted as a mascot by 4chan users and the far-right back in 2015. Over the last decade, Pepe has evolved, taking on various costumes and forms. This more monstrous iteration, Groyper, has been adopted by an even more extreme group. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they call themselves “The Groyper Army” and they famously feuded with Charlie Kirk. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s talk about the Groyper Wars of 2019. Who led them, what happened, and why is this subculture being shoved into the limelight now? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So to step into the time machine back to 2019. You have Turning Point USA run by Charlie Kirk, which essentially is an operation that takes donor money from right-wing sources and Kirk’s network of college chapters and youth influencers and brings these two things together to stage these massive events that are all about bringing young people to the right-wing cause. And in a way, laundering ideas and make them a bit more palatable to the younger generation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Meanwhile, the groypers are here on these image boards posting radical stuff, many of them extremely young, like 13, 14 year olds. Um, and the groypers decide that Kirk is not radical enough for them or that Kirk is purposefully downplaying his radicality in order to, um, get mainstream appeal. And so the groypers decide to do this campaign of trolling him by showing up at these events where people are asking Kirk a question — these like “debate me” type things that he would — do and asking questions that, you know, are goading Kirk into saying something more extreme, more white supremacist, more antisemitic than what he was already saying. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this groyper war, they come to his different events, they attack it. This all unfolds in 2019. And the leader of it is Nick Fuentes, who’s up on these streams, you know, calling his army onto Charlie Kirk, essentially. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you talk about what these memes and the way they engage in internet culture represents beyond like clear cut partisan lines? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so it’s unconfirmed that Robinson was a groyper, but I’m certain in the internet spaces he frequented, he heard about it, he posted about it. He knew about it I’d imagine, just based off the niche-ness of those memes that are on the cartridges and other things we’ve learned about him. And what these memes overall show is Pepe the Frog is a collective self-portrait for a bunch of posters. And as a collective self-portrait, Pepe is interesting. You know, you can dress him up to represent whatever identity group, whatever, you know, subgroup you wanna have him be, put him in a cowboy hat, he’s Western, put them in a Confederate uniform, he’s that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But Pepe’s also a very sad frog. He’s crying or about to cry. He’s very wistful and often he’s depicted as sort of very small and in these situations where he’s like a little boy or something. And so I think that is another way this community scrambles our sense of how politics usually work because you expect the fascists to you know wear boots and be really tough and try to look like you know a soldier or something but for these guys it’s all about they’re they’re just little guys. You know they’re sad they’re they’re melancholy um and the and the draw is if you two are lonely, isolated, fragile, in the world somehow, come here and you can feel strong. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the price of that is you just reject everything that is normal and coherent in the world. And on the other side of that complete rejection, which you perform by posting the horrible meme or the hateful slur. On the other of that you find this brotherhood of violent freaks who will take you in. And I think that’s often the pitch that we see with these sort of far right online communities like groypers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, the alt-right and other, like you said, extremist communities have really taken advantage of that kind of sentiment. Can you talk about the deep emotional place that this online nihilist culture comes out of? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s a deep emotional place that has existed long before the internet. You know, people have felt alienated, lonely, angry by society since we had society and researchers say that one of kind of the key triggers or amplifiers of radicalization is, you know, young people with nothing to do and no hope. And I think looking at the last 10 years of culture, um, there is a lack of hope happening. Um, the economy is bad. Uh, people feel isolated, uh, people feel like systems aren’t working for them. You know, people on both the right and the left feel a certain kind of, um, uncertainty, anxiety, and just disillusionment with, you know, traditional narrators, um telling the stories of our lives. Those no longer seem to cohere and make sense. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so I think when you are a young person who is confused, who is lost, who, um doesn’t have the support structures that you need, often the catches you is this — like an incel forum or groypers or something online that really does not have your best interests at heart. And really, if anything encourages whatever pathology you might be experiencing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the mainstream, whether on your everyday X feed or the traditional news media, there has been so much debate over which side of the political spectrum Robinson fell on. But Aidan said he found this kind of speculation counterproductive. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The conversation is counterproductive to me for two reasons. The first is that it’s such a motivated conversation, particularly from the right-wing. Before anything at all was known, they were saying this was a left-wing radical. And there’s a very clear reason why they were saying that, because they have a political agenda and they have certain people on the left or liberals that they want to crack down on and this is the pretense to do that. But the second, less kind of specific reason that it feels counterproductive to me, is that we’re past a point in our political conversation where it’s about, “do you think that government programs should be smaller or larger?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re at a point where most people are growing up in this context of disaster and crisis. And the things motivating their politics are resentments and kind of triggers that aren’t really mappable to someone from like 1995. Um, like the Republican coalition is not these days about, you know, fiscal conservatives, evangelicals, religious folks. The Democrat coalition is not necessarily like, you now, the, the post-Civil Rights coalition that existed. Um, the reasons people are in these different camps — or actually most Americans are not in either camp at all would define themselves independent — is totally different than it was in the past. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, and I think I find myself kind of struggling to find what then the new categories are, because it’s one thing, like I say in my videos, be like, “oh, it’s not a left-right issue.” Then people are like, “but then what is it?” And I think that project of figuring out what it is, you know, what it feels like, what it means, is something that, you, know, all of us are going to have to kind of go through. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In wake of the shooting, social media sites and messaging platforms are under increased scrutiny. Both law enforcement and private civilians are monitoring the posts, videos, and comments that other people make about Charlie Kirk, taking action against anyone who criticizes the very controversial influencer. How will this change the way people engage with each other online? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re opening one last tab, Discord and Doxxing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The government is cracking down on online activity revolving around Charlie Kirk’s death. In an X post last week, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth warned that the Pentagon is keeping tabs on military personnel and Department of War civilian employees who celebrate or mock Kirk’s’ death. Deputy Secretary of State Christopher Landau threatened to revoke visas of anyone making similar posts. The FBI is reportedly monitoring the messaging platform Discord. Even people who haven’t explicitly celebrated or mocked the killing are being harassed and targeted for what they posted online. Opinion columnist Karen Attia announced that she had been fired from the Washington Post for social media posts in the wake of Kirk’s death that called out, quote, “political violence, racial double standards, and America’s apathy toward guns.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s not just the government monitoring speech online. Private civilians are doing it too. An anonymously run website titled the Charlie Kirk Data Foundation has created a searchable database of people who’ve criticized Kirk online. Individual social media users have doxed others over their posts about Kirk, publicly posting their real names, phone numbers, home addresses, and other private information to target and harass them. All of this, from the government surveillance to the civilian-led doxing, is a serious threat to free speech on the internet. Here’s Aidan again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m extremely concerned about it. I’m more concerned about like a chilling effect on speech or on our online discourse and memes than I am with this escalating cycle of political violence. I mean, the two go hand in hand, of course, but I think stuff like JD Vance taking over the hosting chair for Kirk’s Show and using it to call out NGOs and liberal donors and leftists. I think that crack down is something that can have much deeper effects and hurt a lot of people. And I also think that in an age where we’re maybe seeing an authoritarian consolidation, calling for bans on the internet, calling for restrictions on the internet, the context that’s going to enter into is I think that will lead us down a dark road. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last question, what is the current conversation missing by not understanding the deeply online context of this entire case? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the biggest thing the current conversation is missing is that it’s really not the current conversation. People who read newspapers, report for them, follow this stuff from kind of a news-brained, normie side of Twitter, I don’t think they realize that they’re just one niche among many niches on the internet. They’re a pretty big niche and a pretty important niche, of course. But I don’t think there’s really an understanding that CNN is no longer a narrator of American life. And not just from a partisan kind of perspective that really right-wing people are really left-wing people don’t listen to CNN anymore. Totally normal people don’t listen to CNN anymore because it isn’t legible to them. It doesn’t make sense to them, it talks in a way that, you know, seems to not acknowledge them or seems to treat them in a way that isn’t that respectful or doesn’t keep up with the times. And I worry that the mainstream conversation, it isn’t mainstream, but it still thinks of itself as mainstream. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, Aidan, thank you so much for joining us and for always explaining these corners of the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aidan Walker:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much for having me, Morgan, and for inviting me on. It’s always a joy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And with that, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. Close All Tabs’ producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor. Additional editing by Chris Hambrick and Jen Chien, who’s KQDE’s Director of Podcasts. Original music, including our theme song and credits, by Chris Egusa. Sound design by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor In Chief. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dust Silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We want to hear from you. Email us at closealltabs@KQED.org. Follow us on Instagram @CloseAllTabsPod or TikTok @CloseAllTabs. And join our Discord. We’re in the Close All tabs channel at discord.gg/KQED. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>San Francisco Mayor \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/daniel-lurie\">Daniel Lurie\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/waymo\">Waymo\u003c/a> announced Tuesday the company would begin a testing process that would soon lead to a fully autonomous taxi service at San Francisco International Airport.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the announcement, Lurie hailed the move as the city’s latest step to boost its tourist industry and bolster its economic recovery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Waymo already operates at the main airport in Phoenix and announced earlier this month \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12054705/waymo-knows-the-way-to-san-jose-airport\">it would soon begin\u003c/a> fully autonomous operations at San José Mineta International Airport. The company, owned by Google parent Alphabet, said its SFO service would provide “a safe, reliable, magical way for Bay Area residents and global visitors to connect” with the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Under the newly granted testing and operations permit, the robotaxi company will prepare for service to SFO in three steps, with human safety drivers behind the wheel at first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fully autonomous operations will begin with only Waymo and airport staff as passengers, eventually leading to paid autonomous service for the general public.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Exactly when airport customers might get to experience this “magical” service is unclear. In an email response to KQED’s questions about when public service will roll out, Waymo declined to offer a timeline, saying only that its initial testing phase will begin soon.[aside postID=news_12054705 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/11/Waymo-car-1020x574.jpg']The company said in \u003ca href=\"https://waymo.com/blog?modal=short-waymo-at-sjc#short-all-systems-go-at-sfo-waymo-has-received-our-pilot-permit\">a statement\u003c/a> that when public service begins, it will make pickups and dropoffs at SFO’s Kiss & Fly area adjacent to the airport’s rental car center. From there, passengers can ride SFO’s AirTrain to terminals. The company said it will explore other locations at the airport in the future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The mayor’s office said the SFO permit will require Waymo to operate within strict safety and reporting conditions “to ensure dependable service for trips to and from SFO.” Among other things, \u003ca href=\"https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/26099418-waymo-sfo-av-testing-and-operating-pilot-permit-final-sept2025/\">the permit\u003c/a> will require Waymo to get a further OK from airport officials before it begins paid service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The move is the latest step Lurie has taken to help Waymo expand operations in the city. In March, he granted permission for the company to map SFO.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In April, he announced his intention to allow Waymo’s autonomous Jaguar SUVs to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12035348/mayor-lurie-allows-waymo-on-sfs-car-free-market-street\">use a portion of Market Street\u003c/a> that had been off-limits to private vehicles since 2020. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12053305/advocates-warn-of-dangerous-and-chaotic-market-st-as-it-reopens-to-some-cars\">Waymo launched service\u003c/a> on the city’s principal commercial boulevard last month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"slug": "how-google-organized-opposition-to-a-california-privacy-proposal",
"title": "How Google Organized Opposition to a California Privacy Proposal",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was originally published by \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/\">CalMatters\u003c/a>. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/subscribe-to-calmatters/\">Sign up\u003c/a> for their newsletters.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In April, Rhode Island resident Navah Hopkins received a plea for her help to defeat legislation thousands of miles away in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The ask came from Google, maker of the world’s most used web browser, Chrome. The tech giant sent a message to an email list that Hopkins and other small business owners were subscribed to. Google’s request: To sign a petition opposing \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab566\">Assembly Bill 566\u003c/a>, which would require browsers to provide users with a way to automatically tell websites not to share their personal information with third parties. The measure is sponsored by the California Privacy Protection Agency, which enforces state regulations on such sharing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In its email to Hopkins, Google claimed that the legislation would “hurt your ability to use online ads to reach customers.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was intentionally misleading people that by this bill passing, they were going to lose out on all of these tools within Google (to advertise),” she told CalMatters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The outreach was particularly noteworthy because Google had not itself taken a public position on the bill. The tech giant was so quiet about its opposition that Assemblymember \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/legislators/josh-lowenthal-164206\">Josh Lowenthal\u003c/a>, the author of AB 566, did not know about Google’s email push until a CalMatters reporter asked. Lowenthal also said his office did not receive small business owners’ signatures or outreach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Google’s name wasn’t on the petition either; instead, the document was officially from the “Connected Commerce Council,” which the tech giant backs financially.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12036476\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1024px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/GettyImages-2166671481.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12036476\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/GettyImages-2166671481.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1024\" height=\"706\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/GettyImages-2166671481.jpg 1024w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/GettyImages-2166671481-800x552.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/GettyImages-2166671481-1020x703.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/GettyImages-2166671481-160x110.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Google logo is displayed in front of company headquarters during the Made By Google event on August 13, 2024 in Mountain View, California. Google announced new Pixel phones, watches and AI features at the event. \u003ccite>(Justin Sullivan/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The largely behind-the-scenes campaign offers a glimpse into how the tech giant is working to preserve its grip on the online advertising market and how it attempts, without being seen, to shape policies in a state with one of the nation’s strictest privacy protection laws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Recruiting small businesses to represent the policy interests of a tech giant isn’t new. Last year, Google successfully blocked \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202320240ab3048\">a similar bill\u003c/a> — ultimately vetoed by Gov. Gavin Newsom — by adopting the same tactic, reaching out to small businesses via email lists, according to a message obtained by CalMatters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s no telling how effective Google’s lobbying on the measure has been this year, or how many people it successfully mobilized. Experts warn that the strategy could backfire if the people it reaches out to, like the small business owners, aren’t buying what the company is selling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But before the browser bill reached its final floor vote, Lowenthal amended it to delay the effective date until 2027 and to add liability protections for browser companies like Google.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12054490 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/ChatGPTGetty-1020x680.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When asked who advocated for that language, Lowenthal said he’d taken input from “colleagues and stakeholders” to shape up the “strongest possible bill.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“With any bill that’s been vetoed before, it takes some give-and-take to get it across the finish line,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The bill cleared the Legislature and headed to the governor’s desk Thursday after this story was published.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Google did not respond to multiple requests for comment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Google ranked among the \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/data/2025/04/california-lobbying-spending-2024/\">most active lobbyists in California\u003c/a> last year, spending more to influence the opinions of elected officials \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/politics/capitol/2024/11/google-lobbying-california/\">than it had in the previous 20 years combined\u003c/a>. The lobbying was aimed at battling AI regulation, local news funding requirements, and a prior version of the browser bill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This year, it has disclosed pouring nearly $700,000 into lobbying state leaders on bills including AB 566. Google has also increased lobbying spending in many \u003ca href=\"https://www.openmarketsinstitute.org/publications/google-refines-50-state-lobby-strategy-austin-ahlman\">other statehouses\u003c/a>, according to the Open Markets Institute. With inaction in Congress, states have led the way in tech regulation in recent years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But it’s hard to trace Google’s full influence when the company does not publicly share its position on bills like AB 566, instead paying groups like the California Chamber of Commerce and Connected Commerce Council to influence legislators on its behalf.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure>\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" src=\"https://calmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/082125_CA-Legislature_FG_CM_37-1024x682.jpg\" alt=\"A person, with white hair and wearing a gray suit, stands in front of a podium with a microphone on it while they speak.\">\u003cfigcaption>Assemblymember Josh Lowenthal at the dais during an Assembly floor session at the state Capitol in Sacramento on Aug. 21, 2025. \u003cem>(Fred Greaves for CalMatters)\u003c/em>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Google registered to lobby 17 bills this year that sought to do things like place \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab56\">warning labels on social media\u003c/a> or protect people from \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb503\">algorithms that make health care decisions\u003c/a>, but the company only publicly stated its position on one bill that sought to require\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab1043\"> online age verification\u003c/a>, according to\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/\"> state filings and Digital Democracy\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Google’s lobbying tactics, while not illegal, demonstrate the sway money has over policies, said Sean McMorris, the transparency, ethics, and accountability program manager at California Common Cause.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This type of activity … exemplifies the skewed playing field that we have to play on,” he said. “It’s important to report on and to point out these strategies and loopholes that money can afford you the privilege to engage in, and the public has every right to scrutinize whether that is just or not.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If Google really believes this bill shouldn’t become a law, its lobbyists should show up to testify at a public hearing, not behave in shadowy ways that undercut democracy, said Brandon Forester, an organizer for MediaJustice, a nonprofit that has been critical of the influence of of Big Tech companies and internet service providers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001241\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001241\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Google’s Bay View campus in Mountain View on June 16, 2022. \u003ccite>(Zhang Yi/VCG via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“None of us wants to enter a surveillance marketplace every time that we go on the internet,” he said. “Part of the reason they need to do the shadow lobbying is because the things that they want to do to achieve their infinite growth model is not good for the public.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>AB 566 is not the only threat Google faces to its grip on how people surf the web. A \u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2025-09-02/google-chrome-decision\">judge ruled\u003c/a> last month that the company may no longer enter into exclusive distribution deals for Chrome or Google search. And Chrome faces new competition from a \u003ca href=\"https://www.platformer.news/ai-web-browsers-openai-perplexity-opera/?ref=platformer-newsletter\">number of AI-powered browsers entering the market\u003c/a>, reportedly to \u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/business/media-telecom/openai-release-web-browser-challenge-google-chrome-2025-07-09/\">soon include\u003c/a> one from ChatGPT maker OpenAI.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Onerous mandate or consumer convenience?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Under a 2018 state law, California businesses \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/technology/2025/08/companies-make-it-hard-to-delete-personal-data/\">must provide customers\u003c/a> with a way to forbid the sharing or sale of their personal information to businesses. AB 566 seeks to streamline that process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Browsers such as DuckDuckGo, Brave, and Firefox already have privacy features that, once enabled, \u003ca href=\"https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/global-privacy-control\">automatically send an opt-out signal\u003c/a> to each website the user goes to.[aside postID=forum_2010101911184 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2025/09/GettyImages-2204906139-2000x1335.jpg']The California Chamber of Commerce opposes AB 566, arguing it represents an onerous mandate. The measure lacks clarity, regulates browsers that aren’t “consumer-facing” and is hard to implement, the trade association argued in a letter to lawmakers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Browsers and devices already compete to offer clear, effective privacy controls,” Ronak Dalami, a lobbyist for the chamber, told lawmakers in July.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A similar bill the Legislature passed last year would have required both web browsers and mobile operating systems to offer ways to automatically prohibit the sharing of a user’s personal information, but Gov. Gavin Newsom \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/AB-3048-Veto-Message.pdf\">vetoed\u003c/a> the bill because no major mobile operating system includes such an option.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“To ensure the ongoing usability of mobile devices, it’s best if design questions are first addressed by developers, rather than by regulators,” Newsom said \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/AB-3048-Veto-Message.pdf\">in a veto message\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bianca Blomquist, California director of nonprofit Small Business Majority, which represents 85,000 small businesses nationwide, was among the business owners who received an email last year from Google, on a mailing list of businesses that participated in the company’s training program, Grow with Google. The letter argued that allowing people to easily stop companies from sharing their personal information would make it more expensive for small businesses to sell their products.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Blomquist was skeptical. And while Newsom’s veto message spoke of design risks, she said that most people she talks to “are more concerned about their data being shared than they are too many buttons flashing on a screen.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Blomquist, the email is clear evidence that Google was “leveraging” the data it collected from partners for advocacy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What we find is that small business owners … and partner organizations oftentimes sign on to support or oppose legislation without having an understanding of what it does.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Connected Commerce Council\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The petition Google circulated this year was authored by \u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/30/connected-commerce-council-amazon-google-lobbying-00021801\">Connected Commerce Council\u003c/a>, or 3C, a lobbying group that in 2022 \u003ca href=\"https://connectedcouncil.org/statement-from-the-connected-commerce-council-on-behalf-of-15000-small-business-members-criticizing-the-senate-judiciarys-passage-of-the-american-innovation-and-choice-online-act/\">claimed to represent 15,000 small businesses\u003c/a> but lists Google and Amazon as \u003ca href=\"https://connectedcouncil.org/partners/\">funders and partners\u003c/a>. In 2022, Google and Amazon mobilized their users to fight anti-trust bills in Congress by encouraging them to sign a model online petition the council drafted. That year, the nonprofit published and later removed a membership directory of 5,000 small businesses, many of which told Politico \u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/30/connected-commerce-council-amazon-google-lobbying-00021801\">they were not members of the organization\u003c/a>.[aside postID=news_12049301 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/CAT-%E2%80%94-OG-of-Tech.png']This spring, the group sent a letter to California state lawmakers, arguing that the requirements proposed in AB 566 would cause small businesses to lose out on customer data and make their websites more expensive to operate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Implementing a sweeping experiment that would jeopardize small businesses’ success, limit Californians’ access to relevant products and services, and potentially disrupt access to free web content, is not a sensible way forward,” wrote Rob Retzlaff, executive director of the group.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a virtual press conference last month, the organization put forward two California online business owners who oppose the legislation. The owners argued that the browser feature mandated in the bill could inadvertently drive away customers, would block them from sending targeted ads to users who opt out of having their personal information shared, and would make it impossible for customers who opted out to opt back in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If they opt out of one thing — maybe they just didn’t want … my weekly emails about moms connecting, but they want to have discounts — how are we going to segment that?” said Michelle Mak, owner of baby product store Mewl Baby.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Google did not report paying the commerce council any money to lobby on its behalf to the California secretary of state. But Google reported paying the California Chamber of Commerce, the face of its opposition, almost $100,000 to lobby this year. It also reported paying TechNet, which also registered its opposition, $2,500.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Connected Commerce Council spokesperson Jennifer Hodgkins declined to answer a list of questions from CalMatters, instead providing a statement pointing to the organization’s letters to the Legislature, press releases and statements from small business owners featured in its press conference.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Small business owners are deeply concerned about the impact AB 566 will have on their ability to advertise online, find new customers, and grow,” Hodgkins said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12052593\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/CA-state-capitol.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12052593\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/CA-state-capitol.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/CA-state-capitol.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/CA-state-capitol-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/CA-state-capitol-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The State Capitol of California in Sacramento, May 6, 2025. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQE)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>John Myers, a spokesperson for the California Chamber of Commerce, declined to answer a CalMatters question about the payments it received from Google.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But McMorris of Common Cause said Google’s payments to the chamber for lobbying should be “closely scrutinized.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If it’s not for (AB566), then what was it for?” he said. “That’s where the law gets murky, and you have these wink and nod relationships where both sides know how to play the game without explicitly saying, ‘This is how we are going to play the game.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Mobilizing users a unique tactic\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>It tracks that Google turned to small business owners to protect the company’s business model, said Jeremy Mack, director of the\u003ca href=\"http://phoenixprojectnow.com/\"> Phoenix Project\u003c/a>, a group that tries to draw attention to San Francisco Bay Area front organizations secretly funded by tech billionaires.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mack said the practice is reminiscent of how Uber and Lyft mobilized people who use ride-hailing apps to \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/2024/07/prop-22-california-gig-work-law-upheld/\">support Proposition 22\u003c/a> and keep gig workers from being defined as employees instead of contractors, and tactics embraced by apartment landlords and realtor groups.[aside postID=news_12052617 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/GETTYIMAGES-2228237489-KQED.jpg']“It’s not surprising that Google would do this, but it’s definitely good to be able to flag this for people and put it on their radar,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Unlike other industries seeking to influence policy, tech companies can mobilize users through their online platforms, said Austin Ahlman, a researcher who tracks Google lobbying efforts in state capitals for the Open Markets Institute. It’s part of a long pattern of tech companies using small businesses that rely on their platforms to preempt regulation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meta also has a history of recruiting small businesses to represent its interests, and Google and Meta threatened or prevented people in \u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/feb/18/time-to-reactivate-myspace-the-day-australia-woke-up-to-a-facebook-news-blackout\">Australia\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/how-the-google-news-blackout-was-avoided-1.7045601\">Canada\u003c/a>, and \u003ca href=\"https://blog.google/products/news/california-journalism-preservation-act-puts-news-ecosystem-at-risk/\">California\u003c/a> from seeing the news to oppose a demand that the companies pay to \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/politics/2025/05/google-california-local-news/\">link to news websites\u003c/a>. An earlier, prominent instance of tech companies using their platforms to influence legislation came around the Stop Online Piracy Act and the PROTECT IP Act when major companies, including Google, organized to shut down their websites for a day in September 2012 to oppose those laws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mack thinks mobilizing users has been devastatingly effective, but companies probably do it sparingly because if they do it too often people will be more aware of how much control large tech companies have over people’s information.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’d call it anti-democratic, but I wouldn’t call it desperate, because, frankly, it mostly works,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Powerful companies typically combine traditional lobbying and strategies used by civil society organizations when regulatory pressures threaten their core business model, according to a \u003ca href=\"https://academic.oup.com/ser/article/21/4/1917/7202313\">2023 research paper\u003c/a> about corporate lobbying campaigns. Those tactics were historically associated with the fossil fuel, pharmaceutical and tobacco industries, but tech companies have innovated on and rejuvenated the lobbying form. They can do so more effectively because they can tap into user data and their platforms give them unmediated communication with customers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Companies typically recruit users to advance their policy initiatives when they sense a threat to their business and no longer believe conventional lobbying will be sufficient, said UCLA sociology professor Edward Walker, who studies how companies mobilize customers to speak out about legislation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But it only works if users are motivated to speak out, such as when video game players fought efforts to regulate in-game violence, or when for-profit college students opposed a push by the Obama administration to keep them from receiving federal student aid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s important to know that these kinds of grassroots lobbying strategies, or user mobilization strategies, are a double-edged sword. It’s not a given that they’re always going to work in your favor,” he said. “If you do this in a scattershot way, you really increase the risk it’s going to backfire on you.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>For the record\u003c/strong>: An earlier version of this post misstated Uber and Lyft’s position on Prop. 22.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article was \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/politics/2025/09/google-lobbying/\">originally published on CalMatters\u003c/a> and was republished under the \u003ca href=\"https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/\">Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives\u003c/a> license.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was originally published by \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/\">CalMatters\u003c/a>. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/subscribe-to-calmatters/\">Sign up\u003c/a> for their newsletters.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In April, Rhode Island resident Navah Hopkins received a plea for her help to defeat legislation thousands of miles away in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The ask came from Google, maker of the world’s most used web browser, Chrome. The tech giant sent a message to an email list that Hopkins and other small business owners were subscribed to. Google’s request: To sign a petition opposing \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab566\">Assembly Bill 566\u003c/a>, which would require browsers to provide users with a way to automatically tell websites not to share their personal information with third parties. The measure is sponsored by the California Privacy Protection Agency, which enforces state regulations on such sharing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In its email to Hopkins, Google claimed that the legislation would “hurt your ability to use online ads to reach customers.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was intentionally misleading people that by this bill passing, they were going to lose out on all of these tools within Google (to advertise),” she told CalMatters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The outreach was particularly noteworthy because Google had not itself taken a public position on the bill. The tech giant was so quiet about its opposition that Assemblymember \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/legislators/josh-lowenthal-164206\">Josh Lowenthal\u003c/a>, the author of AB 566, did not know about Google’s email push until a CalMatters reporter asked. Lowenthal also said his office did not receive small business owners’ signatures or outreach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Google’s name wasn’t on the petition either; instead, the document was officially from the “Connected Commerce Council,” which the tech giant backs financially.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12036476\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1024px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/GettyImages-2166671481.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12036476\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/GettyImages-2166671481.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1024\" height=\"706\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/GettyImages-2166671481.jpg 1024w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/GettyImages-2166671481-800x552.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/GettyImages-2166671481-1020x703.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/GettyImages-2166671481-160x110.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1024px) 100vw, 1024px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Google logo is displayed in front of company headquarters during the Made By Google event on August 13, 2024 in Mountain View, California. Google announced new Pixel phones, watches and AI features at the event. \u003ccite>(Justin Sullivan/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The largely behind-the-scenes campaign offers a glimpse into how the tech giant is working to preserve its grip on the online advertising market and how it attempts, without being seen, to shape policies in a state with one of the nation’s strictest privacy protection laws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Recruiting small businesses to represent the policy interests of a tech giant isn’t new. Last year, Google successfully blocked \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202320240ab3048\">a similar bill\u003c/a> — ultimately vetoed by Gov. Gavin Newsom — by adopting the same tactic, reaching out to small businesses via email lists, according to a message obtained by CalMatters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s no telling how effective Google’s lobbying on the measure has been this year, or how many people it successfully mobilized. Experts warn that the strategy could backfire if the people it reaches out to, like the small business owners, aren’t buying what the company is selling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But before the browser bill reached its final floor vote, Lowenthal amended it to delay the effective date until 2027 and to add liability protections for browser companies like Google.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When asked who advocated for that language, Lowenthal said he’d taken input from “colleagues and stakeholders” to shape up the “strongest possible bill.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“With any bill that’s been vetoed before, it takes some give-and-take to get it across the finish line,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The bill cleared the Legislature and headed to the governor’s desk Thursday after this story was published.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Google did not respond to multiple requests for comment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Google ranked among the \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/data/2025/04/california-lobbying-spending-2024/\">most active lobbyists in California\u003c/a> last year, spending more to influence the opinions of elected officials \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/politics/capitol/2024/11/google-lobbying-california/\">than it had in the previous 20 years combined\u003c/a>. The lobbying was aimed at battling AI regulation, local news funding requirements, and a prior version of the browser bill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This year, it has disclosed pouring nearly $700,000 into lobbying state leaders on bills including AB 566. Google has also increased lobbying spending in many \u003ca href=\"https://www.openmarketsinstitute.org/publications/google-refines-50-state-lobby-strategy-austin-ahlman\">other statehouses\u003c/a>, according to the Open Markets Institute. With inaction in Congress, states have led the way in tech regulation in recent years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But it’s hard to trace Google’s full influence when the company does not publicly share its position on bills like AB 566, instead paying groups like the California Chamber of Commerce and Connected Commerce Council to influence legislators on its behalf.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure>\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" src=\"https://calmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/082125_CA-Legislature_FG_CM_37-1024x682.jpg\" alt=\"A person, with white hair and wearing a gray suit, stands in front of a podium with a microphone on it while they speak.\">\u003cfigcaption>Assemblymember Josh Lowenthal at the dais during an Assembly floor session at the state Capitol in Sacramento on Aug. 21, 2025. \u003cem>(Fred Greaves for CalMatters)\u003c/em>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Google registered to lobby 17 bills this year that sought to do things like place \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab56\">warning labels on social media\u003c/a> or protect people from \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb503\">algorithms that make health care decisions\u003c/a>, but the company only publicly stated its position on one bill that sought to require\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab1043\"> online age verification\u003c/a>, according to\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/\"> state filings and Digital Democracy\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Google’s lobbying tactics, while not illegal, demonstrate the sway money has over policies, said Sean McMorris, the transparency, ethics, and accountability program manager at California Common Cause.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This type of activity … exemplifies the skewed playing field that we have to play on,” he said. “It’s important to report on and to point out these strategies and loopholes that money can afford you the privilege to engage in, and the public has every right to scrutinize whether that is just or not.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If Google really believes this bill shouldn’t become a law, its lobbyists should show up to testify at a public hearing, not behave in shadowy ways that undercut democracy, said Brandon Forester, an organizer for MediaJustice, a nonprofit that has been critical of the influence of of Big Tech companies and internet service providers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001241\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001241\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Google’s Bay View campus in Mountain View on June 16, 2022. \u003ccite>(Zhang Yi/VCG via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“None of us wants to enter a surveillance marketplace every time that we go on the internet,” he said. “Part of the reason they need to do the shadow lobbying is because the things that they want to do to achieve their infinite growth model is not good for the public.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>AB 566 is not the only threat Google faces to its grip on how people surf the web. A \u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2025-09-02/google-chrome-decision\">judge ruled\u003c/a> last month that the company may no longer enter into exclusive distribution deals for Chrome or Google search. And Chrome faces new competition from a \u003ca href=\"https://www.platformer.news/ai-web-browsers-openai-perplexity-opera/?ref=platformer-newsletter\">number of AI-powered browsers entering the market\u003c/a>, reportedly to \u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/business/media-telecom/openai-release-web-browser-challenge-google-chrome-2025-07-09/\">soon include\u003c/a> one from ChatGPT maker OpenAI.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Onerous mandate or consumer convenience?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Under a 2018 state law, California businesses \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/technology/2025/08/companies-make-it-hard-to-delete-personal-data/\">must provide customers\u003c/a> with a way to forbid the sharing or sale of their personal information to businesses. AB 566 seeks to streamline that process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Browsers such as DuckDuckGo, Brave, and Firefox already have privacy features that, once enabled, \u003ca href=\"https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/global-privacy-control\">automatically send an opt-out signal\u003c/a> to each website the user goes to.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>The California Chamber of Commerce opposes AB 566, arguing it represents an onerous mandate. The measure lacks clarity, regulates browsers that aren’t “consumer-facing” and is hard to implement, the trade association argued in a letter to lawmakers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Browsers and devices already compete to offer clear, effective privacy controls,” Ronak Dalami, a lobbyist for the chamber, told lawmakers in July.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A similar bill the Legislature passed last year would have required both web browsers and mobile operating systems to offer ways to automatically prohibit the sharing of a user’s personal information, but Gov. Gavin Newsom \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/AB-3048-Veto-Message.pdf\">vetoed\u003c/a> the bill because no major mobile operating system includes such an option.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“To ensure the ongoing usability of mobile devices, it’s best if design questions are first addressed by developers, rather than by regulators,” Newsom said \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/AB-3048-Veto-Message.pdf\">in a veto message\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bianca Blomquist, California director of nonprofit Small Business Majority, which represents 85,000 small businesses nationwide, was among the business owners who received an email last year from Google, on a mailing list of businesses that participated in the company’s training program, Grow with Google. The letter argued that allowing people to easily stop companies from sharing their personal information would make it more expensive for small businesses to sell their products.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Blomquist was skeptical. And while Newsom’s veto message spoke of design risks, she said that most people she talks to “are more concerned about their data being shared than they are too many buttons flashing on a screen.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Blomquist, the email is clear evidence that Google was “leveraging” the data it collected from partners for advocacy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What we find is that small business owners … and partner organizations oftentimes sign on to support or oppose legislation without having an understanding of what it does.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Connected Commerce Council\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The petition Google circulated this year was authored by \u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/30/connected-commerce-council-amazon-google-lobbying-00021801\">Connected Commerce Council\u003c/a>, or 3C, a lobbying group that in 2022 \u003ca href=\"https://connectedcouncil.org/statement-from-the-connected-commerce-council-on-behalf-of-15000-small-business-members-criticizing-the-senate-judiciarys-passage-of-the-american-innovation-and-choice-online-act/\">claimed to represent 15,000 small businesses\u003c/a> but lists Google and Amazon as \u003ca href=\"https://connectedcouncil.org/partners/\">funders and partners\u003c/a>. In 2022, Google and Amazon mobilized their users to fight anti-trust bills in Congress by encouraging them to sign a model online petition the council drafted. That year, the nonprofit published and later removed a membership directory of 5,000 small businesses, many of which told Politico \u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/30/connected-commerce-council-amazon-google-lobbying-00021801\">they were not members of the organization\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>This spring, the group sent a letter to California state lawmakers, arguing that the requirements proposed in AB 566 would cause small businesses to lose out on customer data and make their websites more expensive to operate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Implementing a sweeping experiment that would jeopardize small businesses’ success, limit Californians’ access to relevant products and services, and potentially disrupt access to free web content, is not a sensible way forward,” wrote Rob Retzlaff, executive director of the group.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a virtual press conference last month, the organization put forward two California online business owners who oppose the legislation. The owners argued that the browser feature mandated in the bill could inadvertently drive away customers, would block them from sending targeted ads to users who opt out of having their personal information shared, and would make it impossible for customers who opted out to opt back in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If they opt out of one thing — maybe they just didn’t want … my weekly emails about moms connecting, but they want to have discounts — how are we going to segment that?” said Michelle Mak, owner of baby product store Mewl Baby.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Google did not report paying the commerce council any money to lobby on its behalf to the California secretary of state. But Google reported paying the California Chamber of Commerce, the face of its opposition, almost $100,000 to lobby this year. It also reported paying TechNet, which also registered its opposition, $2,500.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Connected Commerce Council spokesperson Jennifer Hodgkins declined to answer a list of questions from CalMatters, instead providing a statement pointing to the organization’s letters to the Legislature, press releases and statements from small business owners featured in its press conference.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Small business owners are deeply concerned about the impact AB 566 will have on their ability to advertise online, find new customers, and grow,” Hodgkins said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12052593\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/CA-state-capitol.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12052593\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/CA-state-capitol.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/CA-state-capitol.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/CA-state-capitol-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/CA-state-capitol-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The State Capitol of California in Sacramento, May 6, 2025. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQE)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>John Myers, a spokesperson for the California Chamber of Commerce, declined to answer a CalMatters question about the payments it received from Google.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But McMorris of Common Cause said Google’s payments to the chamber for lobbying should be “closely scrutinized.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If it’s not for (AB566), then what was it for?” he said. “That’s where the law gets murky, and you have these wink and nod relationships where both sides know how to play the game without explicitly saying, ‘This is how we are going to play the game.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Mobilizing users a unique tactic\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>It tracks that Google turned to small business owners to protect the company’s business model, said Jeremy Mack, director of the\u003ca href=\"http://phoenixprojectnow.com/\"> Phoenix Project\u003c/a>, a group that tries to draw attention to San Francisco Bay Area front organizations secretly funded by tech billionaires.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mack said the practice is reminiscent of how Uber and Lyft mobilized people who use ride-hailing apps to \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/economy/2024/07/prop-22-california-gig-work-law-upheld/\">support Proposition 22\u003c/a> and keep gig workers from being defined as employees instead of contractors, and tactics embraced by apartment landlords and realtor groups.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“It’s not surprising that Google would do this, but it’s definitely good to be able to flag this for people and put it on their radar,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Unlike other industries seeking to influence policy, tech companies can mobilize users through their online platforms, said Austin Ahlman, a researcher who tracks Google lobbying efforts in state capitals for the Open Markets Institute. It’s part of a long pattern of tech companies using small businesses that rely on their platforms to preempt regulation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meta also has a history of recruiting small businesses to represent its interests, and Google and Meta threatened or prevented people in \u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/feb/18/time-to-reactivate-myspace-the-day-australia-woke-up-to-a-facebook-news-blackout\">Australia\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/how-the-google-news-blackout-was-avoided-1.7045601\">Canada\u003c/a>, and \u003ca href=\"https://blog.google/products/news/california-journalism-preservation-act-puts-news-ecosystem-at-risk/\">California\u003c/a> from seeing the news to oppose a demand that the companies pay to \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/politics/2025/05/google-california-local-news/\">link to news websites\u003c/a>. An earlier, prominent instance of tech companies using their platforms to influence legislation came around the Stop Online Piracy Act and the PROTECT IP Act when major companies, including Google, organized to shut down their websites for a day in September 2012 to oppose those laws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mack thinks mobilizing users has been devastatingly effective, but companies probably do it sparingly because if they do it too often people will be more aware of how much control large tech companies have over people’s information.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’d call it anti-democratic, but I wouldn’t call it desperate, because, frankly, it mostly works,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Powerful companies typically combine traditional lobbying and strategies used by civil society organizations when regulatory pressures threaten their core business model, according to a \u003ca href=\"https://academic.oup.com/ser/article/21/4/1917/7202313\">2023 research paper\u003c/a> about corporate lobbying campaigns. Those tactics were historically associated with the fossil fuel, pharmaceutical and tobacco industries, but tech companies have innovated on and rejuvenated the lobbying form. They can do so more effectively because they can tap into user data and their platforms give them unmediated communication with customers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Companies typically recruit users to advance their policy initiatives when they sense a threat to their business and no longer believe conventional lobbying will be sufficient, said UCLA sociology professor Edward Walker, who studies how companies mobilize customers to speak out about legislation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But it only works if users are motivated to speak out, such as when video game players fought efforts to regulate in-game violence, or when for-profit college students opposed a push by the Obama administration to keep them from receiving federal student aid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s important to know that these kinds of grassroots lobbying strategies, or user mobilization strategies, are a double-edged sword. It’s not a given that they’re always going to work in your favor,” he said. “If you do this in a scattershot way, you really increase the risk it’s going to backfire on you.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>For the record\u003c/strong>: An earlier version of this post misstated Uber and Lyft’s position on Prop. 22.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article was \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/politics/2025/09/google-lobbying/\">originally published on CalMatters\u003c/a> and was republished under the \u003ca href=\"https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/\">Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives\u003c/a> license.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"tagline": "The flip side of gentrification, told through one town",
"info": "Gentrification is changing cities across America, forcing people from neighborhoods they have long called home. Call them the displaced. Now those priced out of the Bay Area are looking for a better life in an unlikely place. American Suburb follows this migration to one California town along the Delta, 45 miles from San Francisco. But is this once sleepy suburb ready for them?",
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},
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"tagline": "Exploring the Bay Area, one question at a time",
"info": "KQED’s new podcast, Bay Curious, gets to the bottom of the mysteries — both profound and peculiar — that give the Bay Area its unique identity. And we’ll do it with your help! You ask the questions. You decide what Bay Curious investigates. And you join us on the journey to find the answers.",
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},
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"info": "KQED’s statewide radio news program providing daily coverage of issues, trends and public policy decisions.",
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"order": 8
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"info": "Every week, The California Report Magazine takes you on a road trip for the ears: to visit the places and meet the people who make California unique. The in-depth storytelling podcast from the California Report.",
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"airtime": "SUN 1pm-2pm, TUE 10pm, WED 1am",
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"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
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"order": 1
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"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
"airtime": "THU 10pm, FRI 1am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Commonwealth-Club-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
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"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"order": 9
},
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"hidden-brain": {
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"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
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"source": "NPR"
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"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
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"hyphenacion": {
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"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"jerrybrown": {
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"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
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"order": 18
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},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
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},
"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
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},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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"rss": "https://feeds.publicradio.org/public_feeds/marketplace-pm/rss/rss"
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},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
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"source": "WaitWhat"
},
"link": "/radio/program/masters-of-scale",
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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