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"slug": "pretty-but-not-nice-californias-invasive-ice-plant",
"title": "Pretty, but Not 'Nice': California's Invasive Ice Plant",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ice plant has many monikers: \u003cem>Carpobrotus edulis\u003c/em>, highway ice plant or simply, sour fig. If you’ve ever set eyes on a California beach, even from a distance, you’ve seen it. The fleshy green succulent has finger-like, three-sided leaves. It blooms with purple and yellow flowers in the spring. Most agree it’s a pretty plant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But this ubiquitous coastal plant has a dark side. It’s an invasive species that blankets dune landscapes, squeezing out native plants and critters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/span>Wetland ecologist Lorraine Parsons has a joke about invasive species: “Does that plant species play nicely in the sandbox?” she told me while observing rolling dunes covered with ice plant at Point Reyes National Seashore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The answer for this succulent is a decisive “no.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Carpobrotus edulis\u003c/em> competes with other plants for basic resources like\u003ca href=\"https://www.calflora.org/app/taxon?crn=1660\"> light, water and space\u003c/a>. And it usually wins.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After KQED listener Tom McMahon moved here in 2016, he was surprised to learn that the existence of ice plant in California barely predates the state’s railroads and highways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But over the past century, the succulent has blanketed some of California’s most beautiful seaside places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s part of my expectation of what the Pacific coast is,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>McMahon wanted to know how the freeway plant got here in the first place, so he asked Bay Curious to look into its origin story. He also wanted to know about other invasive plants that don’t “play nice” with California natives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The beach invader\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>From Crescent City to San Diego, ice plant can be seen in some of California’s most iconic coastal areas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At Point Reyes National Seashore, there are miles and miles of it, despite the fact that park staff have been organizing removal events to control it for 25 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At one recent work party in June, around 10 employees and volunteers tore out ice plant just north of the lighthouse. Parsons said they chose the area because it wasn’t completely overrun, and therefore, there’s still hope that the sparse populations of native plants can bounce back after the removal of ice plant and European beach grass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Parsons’ coworkers worked their way along the ground on their hands and knees, pulling out long strands of ice plant. They opted for a manual removal method rather than using herbicide, which would have affected other plants and water sources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990217\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990217\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Francesca Dezza Parada (left) and Celeste Chavez, bilingual environmental educators with the Point Reyes National Seashore Association, remove ice plant (Carpobrotus edulis), an invasive species from South Africa, from a section of dunes at Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Because it grows in long, crawling strands, fellow weed killers have been known to enjoy friendly competition over who can remove the longest strand of ice plant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’ll end up with something as long as your body and proudly hold it up like a big fish,” park ranger Sierra Frisbie said with a laugh.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990225\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990225\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">National Park Service ranger Sierra Frisbie (left) and biological science technician Miriam Golding look at native plans in an area where ice plant (Carpobrotus edulis), an invasive species from South Africa, was removed at Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>While the beach backdrop at Point Reyes is gorgeous, and the weed crusaders are having a good time, long-term ice plant eradication here is a permanent management problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It all started, Parsons said, when the plant was intentionally sown here in the early to mid-1900s as a way to keep dunes from moving into nearby pastures. Sandy dune ecosystems naturally shift, and ice plant helps hold them in place by setting down roots along viney, ground-hugging stems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ice plant also grows fast — about three feet laterally a year. So whenever ice plant shows up, it can pretty quickly form a dense carpet, holding the soil together underneath.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After decades of growth at Point Reyes, Parsons said, about 60 percent of the coastal area has been taken over by ice plant and another invasive — the equally pernicious European beach grass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this hillside near a beach just north of the lighthouse, Parsons’ team is trying to make space for the native\u003ca href=\"https://www.fws.gov/species/tidestroms-lupine-lupinus-tidestromii\"> Tidestrom’s Lupine\u003c/a>, which is at risk of going extinct.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The seeds of the lupine, another low-to-the-ground dune-lover with lavender flowers, are being eaten by mice, which have great cover in the nearby ice plant and beach grass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>“\u003c/strong>Native deer mice come, and they literally clip off the seams that have the seed on it, and they tug them off. And that’s like a food source for them,” Parsons said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The decline of native plants has a ripple effect on other wildlife. For example, another plant here, the\u003ca href=\"https://calscape.org/Monardella-undulata-(Curlyleaf-Monardella)\"> Curlyleaf Monardella\u003c/a>, is a primary nectar source for the endangered\u003ca href=\"https://www.fws.gov/species/myrtles-silverspot-butterfly-speyeria-zerene-myrtleae\"> Myrtle’s Silverspot\u003c/a> butterfly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990859\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990859\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1284\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL-800x535.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL-1020x682.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL-1536x1027.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Native plants grow in a section of dunes at Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4, 2024, that has been cleared of an invasive ice plant. The top row from left to right: curly-leaved Monardella (Monardella sinuata ssp. nigrescens), coast Indian paintbrush (Castilleja affinis) and beach layia (Layia carnosa). The bottom row from left to right are: mock heather (Ericameria ericoides), Tidestrom’s lupine (Lupinus tidestromii) and California poppy (Eschscholzia californica). This California poppy is the state flower. It’s very common around California, but usually, the flower is solid orange. The ones on the dunes tend to be much more yellow. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>And birds such as the Western Snowy Plover, which are already\u003ca href=\"https://ecos.fws.gov/ecp/species/8035\"> threatened\u003c/a>, are also made vulnerable by the nearby ice plant and beach grass. The short, white-bellied shorebird nests right in the sand on the beach. Their predators, ravens and coyotes, hide out in the thick cover of the invasives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It makes it easier for them to kind of sneak up on the nest,” Parsons said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Carpobrotus edulis\u003c/em> can also change the microbiota of the soil, making it less favorable for native plants even after ice plant is removed. So Parsons says removing an area infested by ice plants can just make space for “secondary invaders, instead of luring native flora back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For all those reasons, the staff at Point Reyes National Seashore choose their battles wisely when deciding which dune habitat to restore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re not going to get rid of all this ice plant,” Parsons said, so they choose areas that aren’t completely overrun. “Because, in a sense, you get more bang for your buck … It’s a lot easier to reestablish a native community.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Ice plant’s origins\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Today, ice plant blankets the California coastline and can also be seen in residential home gardens (where it is more welcome as an ornamental or lawn substitute).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Carpobrotus edulis\u003c/em> is not just a problem in California, though. It’s everywhere: coastal Italy, Spain, Argentina and Australia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ever since people have been buying plants and gardening, plants have been traded across international borders, UC Santa Barbara ecology professor\u003ca href=\"https://www.eemb.ucsb.edu/people/faculty/dantonio\"> Carla D’Antonio said\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People take plants with them when they go places. When the Spaniards came here, they had a whole array of species,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ice plant first came from South Africa, probably in the 1930s, according to D’Antonio.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990222\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990222\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Wetland biologist Lorraine Parsons removes ice plant (Carpobrotus edulis), an invasive species from South Africa, from a section of Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Caltrans and other transportation engineers are\u003ca href=\"https://wildlife.ca.gov/Conservation/Plants/Dont-Plant-Me/Iceplant\"> widely reported\u003c/a> to have planted it around highways, railroads and other landscapes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was planted along railroads to stabilize blowing sand,” D’Antonio said. “It’s probably pretty good at stopping cars that are out of control, you know, and stopping erosion of cliff sides or bank sides onto those highways.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There was a turning point with ice plant in the 1980s and ’90s, D’Antonio said, when natural area managers started not wanting the plant around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People were noticing that they were losing some of their beautiful…endemic coastal poppies and other things because \u003cem>Carpobrotus\u003c/em> was growing everywhere,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Other invasives\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Certainly, ice plant isn’t the only invasive plant crowding out California natives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cal-ipc.org/plants/profile/arundo-donax-profile/\">\u003cem>Arundo Donax\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, a giant reed used for roofing material and musical instruments,\u003ca href=\"https://cisr.ucr.edu/invasive-species/giant-reed\"> was brought to California in the early 1800s\u003c/a>. \u003cem>Arundo Donax\u003c/em> is particularly troublesome. It turns river areas into fuel for fires and grows back even stronger after a blaze. Tens of millions of public dollars have been used to fight its spread.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While thousands of non-native plants have been introduced into California — some of them brought intentionally, others accidentally — most of them don’t alter their environments as much as Arundo and ice plant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It isn’t that many of them that are really causing these big changes,” D’Antonio said. “But the ones that do definitely are changing the resources and the values that we want to have in our ecosystems.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990216\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990216\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ice plant (Carpobrotus edulis), an invasive species from South Africa, grows at Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Preventing ‘invasions’\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The good news is that in the past few decades, ecologists have been trying to establish some boundaries on international plant exchange, D’Antonio said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And more locally, park rangers are using a ‘boots on the ground’ approach to preventing the spread of invasives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rachel Kesel, a senior environmental scientist with California State Parks, is an evangelist for catching plant invaders before they take over entire coastlines. She’s trained park staff all over the Bay Area in early detection work, teaching them how to identify, map, and get rid of invasive plants before they become unmanageable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990219\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990219\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">National Park Service ranger Sierra Frisbie removes ice plant (Carpobrotus edulis), an invasive species from South Africa, from a section of Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>One morning in June, Kesel trained a handful of park managers and volunteers at Armstrong Redwoods State Natural Reserve in the Russian River area of Sonoma County.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She warned them about a wispy green weed called panic veldt grass or\u003ca href=\"https://www.cal-ipc.org/plants/profile/ehrharta-erecta-profile/\"> \u003cem>Ehrharta erect\u003c/em>a\u003c/a>, which she saw crop up all over Mt. Tam when she worked there for the better part of a decade. She doesn’t want the grass to invade these redwoods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It really is probably the highest priority for what to look for,” she said to the group. “It often comes in on our vehicles, mud in our tires and that sort of thing, out of our neighborhoods.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although this little blade of grass looks harmless, Kesel takes it very seriously. It has the potential to take over the forest floor; it can grow in just 2% light as well as on a sunny, soil-deprived beach. The veldt grass grows between other plants, which makes it look messy and hard to pull out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12000167\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12000167\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1475\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass-800x590.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass-1020x752.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass-160x118.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass-1536x1133.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass-1920x1416.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Rachel Kesel, senior environmental scientist for California State Parks, holds up a piece of invasive panic veldtgrass or Ehrharta erecta, in Armstrong Redwoods State Natural Reserve during a training with local park workers. \u003ccite>(Pauline Bartolone/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“It would really change that iconic look of the understory floor and kind of what people are coming into an old-growth redwood forest to see,” Kesel said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hunting down and rooting out invasives may seem like a lot of effort. But to anyone who stands among the redwoods on a hot day and soaks in the beauty of the clover-shaped sorrel on the forest floor, it probably doesn’t seem like too much to ask.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After all, we all manage weeds in our own yards, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you want to get nerdy about the invasive plants in your area, go to \u003ca href=\"https://www.cal-ipc.org/\">Cal-IPC.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’re inspired to plant California natives in your neighborhood, \u003ca href=\"https://calscape.org/\">Calscape offers design ideas and resources\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> When you think of quintessential California experiences, driving down Highway 1 is pretty tough to beat. It was one of the first things Tom McMahon did when he first visited the Bay Area in 2016.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom McMahon: \u003c/strong>I rented a car, and I drove from San Francisco down to Seacliff. And on the way, I actually stopped along a few spots. And one of them was like, Poplar Beach. And, you know, one of the things that kind of jumped out was all these green plants with the purple and yellow flowers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> What he was seeing was ice plant — a fleshy green succulent with finger-like, three-sided leaves. It grows low to the ground and spreads out over large areas, like a carpet. In spring its pink, purple, or yellow flowers burst open — its petals spreading like little fireworks. Quite frankly, it’s gorgeous! But it’s got a dark side. McMahon started studying plants with his 5-year-old daughter recently and learned this charming-looking plant is invasive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom McMahon:\u003c/strong> And this has been something that I’ve seen everywhere, and it’s part of my expectation of what the Pacific coast is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> McMahon lives in California now, and he and his daughter go on walks and see ice plant all over — it’s often used in landscaping in place of grass. She’s been asking: “If it’s invasive, why did someone put it there?” and McMahon doesn’t have a great answer. So, he asked Bay Curious for an assist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom McMahon:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I’d like to know, why are the ice plants here, who brought them here? What was their purpose? And what other things do we see every day that are actually invasive and potentially harming our local plant life and wildlife?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This week on Bay Curious, we’re delving into the world of invasive plants. We’ll answer McMahon’s questions about ice plant and explore a few other troublesome flora. That’s all just head, stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> To answer Tom McMahon’s questions about ice plant and other notorious invasives. KQED producer Pauline Bartolone got really in the weeds, hardy har har. Enjoy the ride.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Ice plant has many monikers … Carpobrotus edulis, highway ice plant, or simply sour fig. If you’ve ever set eyes on a California beach, even from a distance, you’ve seen it. From as far north as Crescent City all the way down to San Diego. When it comes to invasive species in California, ice plant is iconic. And so are the areas it invades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[Wind sounds and crashing waves]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Like the Point Reyes seashore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons: \u003c/strong>So that’s all ice plant! \u003cem>[laughs]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Oh wow, okay, that whole ridge …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons: \u003c/strong>That whole ridge is ice plant over there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>I went to the rolling dunes of Point Reyes to meet Lorraine Parsons. She’s a wetland ecologist with the National Seashore. There are miles and miles of ice plant here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons:\u003c/strong> If you drive Sir Francis Drake all the way out to the lighthouse and you look out toward the ocean, many areas are just this dense carpet of ice plant and literally no other plant species.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Parsons is here today with around 10 employees and volunteers to tear out ice plant uphill from a beach near the lighthouse. Here, they still have a chance to protect some vulnerable wildlife.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons:\u003c/strong> And we still have some native plant species, but they’re being pushed out by the ice plant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> National seashore staff have been organizing work parties like this for 25 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[sound of plants rustling, breaking]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danna Ojeda:\u003c/strong> Oh, it’s a pretty easy plant to pull.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Biotechnician Danna Ojeda is on her hands and knees ripping out ice plant, drawing her hand back like she’s pulling a plug out of a wall. Technically, you could kill ice plant with herbicide, but that can affect other plants and water sources. Ojeda says the trickiest part about tearing it out is just making sure you don’t remove other plants too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danna Ojeda:\u003c/strong> So you just pull it, and since it’s sand, it comes right off. Just make sure the roots don’t go in between any of the plants so you don’t accidentally bring them up to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Park ranger Sierra Frisbie adds her ice plant debris to a big pile.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sierra Frisbie: \u003c/strong>During a volunteer event, we try to have a competition of who can get the longest piece of ice plant and you’ll end up with something, you know, as long as your body and proudly hold it up like a big fish or something. It’s kinda your catch of the day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>While it’s a gorgeous sunny day out here, this is a beast of a project and a permanent management problem. Parsons says ice plant was actually planted here in the early to mid-1900s as a way to keep dunes, which naturally shift, from moving into nearby pastures. Ice plant is a good soil stabilizer. But it grows laterally about three feet a year. So after decades of growth, Parsons says, about 60 percent of the coastal area in Point Reyes has been taken over by ice plant and another invasive — the equally pernicious European beach grass. They’re struggling to get rid of it in areas where endangered native plants like Tidestrom’s lupine are at risk of going extinct.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons: \u003c/strong>So this is the Tidestrom’s lupine here … Again, this is a short-lived perennial plant species in the pea family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Tidestrom’s lupine is another low-to-the-ground beach-loving plant with little lavender flowers. But here, its seeds are being eaten by mice, which hide out in the nearby ice plant and European beach grass. In many areas, it hasn’t been growing back\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons: \u003c/strong>It has historically stretched from Sonoma County near Goat Rock all the way down to Monterey. And, you know, over that time, populations have been lost.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>The decline of native plants has a ripple effect on other wildlife in an ecosystem. For example, another plant here, the Curlyleaf Monardella, is a primary nectar source for an endangered butterfly. And birds such as the snowy plover, a tiny white-bellied thing, are also threatened. They nest right in the sand on the beach. And the nearby ice plant and beach grass provide cover for their predators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"margin: 0px;padding: 0px\">\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons:\u003c/strong> So, like, ravens can be in there obviously like coyotes, other animals like that, it makes it easier for them to kind of sneak up on the nest there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>And the bad news about ice plant gets worse. The invasive can also change the soil conditions, so it is less favorable for native plants even after ice plant is removed. For all those reasons, when it comes to these eradication parties, Parsons says they have to choose their battles wisely. They don’t even bother with the completely overrun areas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons:\u003c/strong> We realize we’re not going to get rid of all this beach grass, and we’re not going to get rid of all this ice plant. So I think we’re just focusing on these like moderately to sparsely invaded areas because, in a sense, you get more bang for your buck. You’ve already got the native plants here. It’s a lot easier to get, to reestablish a native community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Today, ice plant blankets the California coastline. It’s not just a problem in California, though, it’s everywhere: coastal Italy, Spain, Argentina, Australia. UC Santa Barbara ecology professor Carla D’Antonio says that’s not surprising.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carla D’Antonio: \u003c/strong>People take plants with them when they go places. When the Spaniards came here, they had a whole array of species that they brought.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>D’Antonio says there isn’t a lot of documentation about the beginnings of Carpobrotus edulis in the U.S. but there’s a consensus about its origin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carla D’Antonio: \u003c/strong>It came from South Africa. It appears to have come probably, in the 1930s. It was planted along railroads to stabilize blowing sand. It was planted along highways. It’s probably pretty good at stopping cars that are out of control, you know, and stopping erosion of cliff sides or bank sides onto those highways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Ice plant’s long and viny stems stay close to the ground as they grow, and set down many different roots along the way. The tangley mat keeps soil together underneath. That’s why Caltrans and other engineers planted it around highways, railroads and other landscapes. But when managers of natural areas like Asilomar in Monterey started getting concerned about ice plant, D’Antonio decided to do her doctoral research on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carla D’Antonio: \u003c/strong>Awareness really started to grow that this thing was showing up everywhere. People were noticing that they were losing some of their beautiful kind of endemic coastal poppies and other things because carpobrotus was growing everywhere.\u003cem>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nPauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Certainly, ice plant isn’t the only non-native plant bent on world domination. Our question asker, Tom McMahon wanted to know about others on the most-wanted list. I’d say Arundo donax would definitely be in that category. The giant reed was brought to California in the early 1800s and used for roofing material and musical instruments. Arundo donax is particularly gnarly, turning river areas into fuel for fire and growing back even stronger after a blaze. Tens of millions of public dollars have been used to fight it. All in all, D’Antonio says, thousands of non-native plants have been introduced into California. Some of them intentionally, others accidentally. Most of them play nice with native plants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carla D’Antonio:\u003c/strong> So it isn’t that many of them that are really causing these big changes. But the ones that do definitely are changing the resources and the values that we want to have in our ecosystems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> So how do we stop those world-dominating plants? D’Antonio says for the past few decades, ecologists have been trying to establish some boundaries on international plant exchange. And more locally, park rangers are using boots on the ground approaches to preventing the spread of invasives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel: \u003c/strong>So I brought a couple of things with me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>People like Rachel Kesel in Sonoma County. The park ranger is an evangelist for catching plant invaders early before they take over entire coastlines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel: \u003c/strong>So I think everybody probably knows that all folks engaged in land management spend a lot of time and money on invasive plants. And what the early detection of invasive plants approach does is try to shift some of that, hopefully, new investment of time and money that you are already spending to plants that are newer on the landscape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Kesel has trained park staff all over the Bay Area to find invasive plants early. Today, she’s in Armstrong Redwoods State Reserve in the Russian River warning a handful of park staff and volunteers about a wispy green weed called panic veldt grass, or Ehrharta erecta.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel: \u003c/strong>It often comes in on our vehicles, mud in our tires and that sort of thing out of our neighborhoods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Kesel takes this little blade of grass very seriously. She saw Ehrharta crop up all over Mt. Tam, where she worked for the better part of a decade. This thing sounds like it could withstand an apocalypse. It can grow on a forest floor in just 2 percent light, or a sunny, soil deprived beach. It grows between other plants, which makes it hard to pull out. And Kesel says it just looks messy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel: \u003c/strong>It would really change that iconic look of the understory floor and kind of what people are coming into an old-growth redwood forest to see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[footsteps]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Kesel takes a couple of park personnel out on a detection walk, to show them how they can identify the plant, and map it, so scientists can track its footprint over time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> Go, team! Now, when I come upon something like this, I’m always gonna take a twirl around it…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Is that it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> No, that is a melaka.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> It’s a native grass, thankfully. But. Good eye, you’re noticing grasses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Apparently, I can’t tell the difference between blades of grass, but Kesel seems to have developed a hawk eye for this work. When we did come across the pesky blades of grass, she broke out a plastic bag to transport the undesirables.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> I know I look paranoid, but it is dropping its seed, which is why I have it in the bag.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[rustling of plastic bag]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> So now you go in the bag, my friend …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Then, she holds up the blade of grass like it’s a contaminated Q-tip so the park workers can get a closer look. She takes out her mini magnifying glass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> So, all right. If we look at the base. Of course, this one isn’t very red because, like I said, color is a fickle character.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Finally, she shows the park workers how to map other invasives using a program on her phone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel: \u003c/strong>Go to my location. Why are you being so dumb? I talk back to my device a lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> During this trip, part of me felt like, wow, what a lot of effort to remove just a little blade of grass. But on the way out of Armstrong that day, I took a moment to stand under the shade of the redwoods and soak in the beauty. The forest floor was covered in this really pretty, delicate-looking sorrel. It’s a clover-like plant a few inches off the ground. That’s when it struck me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> I can really see why people want to preserve this place. The air is so still and soft, and I imagine much cooler than outside this redwood forest. I could spend all day here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>When it comes to preserving that feeling of the redwoods, managing invasives doesn’t seem like too much to ask. After all, we all manage weeds in our own yards, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That story was produced by Pauline Bartolone. Big thanks to Tom McMahon and his five-year-old daughter for the question. And to the California invasive plant council for their expertise on this story. If you want to learn more about invasive plants or get involved in one of those removal work parties – we’ve got a lot of resources for you online at BayCurious.org. We’ll drop a link in our show notes too. Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. You can support our show by becoming a member! Give today at donate.kqed.org.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made by Amanda Font, Olivia Allen-Price, Christopher Beale, Ana De Almeida Amaral. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED family. I’m Olivia Allen-Price, thank you for listening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ice plant has many monikers: \u003cem>Carpobrotus edulis\u003c/em>, highway ice plant or simply, sour fig. If you’ve ever set eyes on a California beach, even from a distance, you’ve seen it. The fleshy green succulent has finger-like, three-sided leaves. It blooms with purple and yellow flowers in the spring. Most agree it’s a pretty plant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But this ubiquitous coastal plant has a dark side. It’s an invasive species that blankets dune landscapes, squeezing out native plants and critters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/span>Wetland ecologist Lorraine Parsons has a joke about invasive species: “Does that plant species play nicely in the sandbox?” she told me while observing rolling dunes covered with ice plant at Point Reyes National Seashore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The answer for this succulent is a decisive “no.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Carpobrotus edulis\u003c/em> competes with other plants for basic resources like\u003ca href=\"https://www.calflora.org/app/taxon?crn=1660\"> light, water and space\u003c/a>. And it usually wins.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After KQED listener Tom McMahon moved here in 2016, he was surprised to learn that the existence of ice plant in California barely predates the state’s railroads and highways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But over the past century, the succulent has blanketed some of California’s most beautiful seaside places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s part of my expectation of what the Pacific coast is,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>McMahon wanted to know how the freeway plant got here in the first place, so he asked Bay Curious to look into its origin story. He also wanted to know about other invasive plants that don’t “play nice” with California natives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The beach invader\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>From Crescent City to San Diego, ice plant can be seen in some of California’s most iconic coastal areas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At Point Reyes National Seashore, there are miles and miles of it, despite the fact that park staff have been organizing removal events to control it for 25 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At one recent work party in June, around 10 employees and volunteers tore out ice plant just north of the lighthouse. Parsons said they chose the area because it wasn’t completely overrun, and therefore, there’s still hope that the sparse populations of native plants can bounce back after the removal of ice plant and European beach grass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Parsons’ coworkers worked their way along the ground on their hands and knees, pulling out long strands of ice plant. They opted for a manual removal method rather than using herbicide, which would have affected other plants and water sources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990217\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990217\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Francesca Dezza Parada (left) and Celeste Chavez, bilingual environmental educators with the Point Reyes National Seashore Association, remove ice plant (Carpobrotus edulis), an invasive species from South Africa, from a section of dunes at Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Because it grows in long, crawling strands, fellow weed killers have been known to enjoy friendly competition over who can remove the longest strand of ice plant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’ll end up with something as long as your body and proudly hold it up like a big fish,” park ranger Sierra Frisbie said with a laugh.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990225\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990225\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">National Park Service ranger Sierra Frisbie (left) and biological science technician Miriam Golding look at native plans in an area where ice plant (Carpobrotus edulis), an invasive species from South Africa, was removed at Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>While the beach backdrop at Point Reyes is gorgeous, and the weed crusaders are having a good time, long-term ice plant eradication here is a permanent management problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It all started, Parsons said, when the plant was intentionally sown here in the early to mid-1900s as a way to keep dunes from moving into nearby pastures. Sandy dune ecosystems naturally shift, and ice plant helps hold them in place by setting down roots along viney, ground-hugging stems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ice plant also grows fast — about three feet laterally a year. So whenever ice plant shows up, it can pretty quickly form a dense carpet, holding the soil together underneath.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After decades of growth at Point Reyes, Parsons said, about 60 percent of the coastal area has been taken over by ice plant and another invasive — the equally pernicious European beach grass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this hillside near a beach just north of the lighthouse, Parsons’ team is trying to make space for the native\u003ca href=\"https://www.fws.gov/species/tidestroms-lupine-lupinus-tidestromii\"> Tidestrom’s Lupine\u003c/a>, which is at risk of going extinct.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The seeds of the lupine, another low-to-the-ground dune-lover with lavender flowers, are being eaten by mice, which have great cover in the nearby ice plant and beach grass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>“\u003c/strong>Native deer mice come, and they literally clip off the seams that have the seed on it, and they tug them off. And that’s like a food source for them,” Parsons said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The decline of native plants has a ripple effect on other wildlife. For example, another plant here, the\u003ca href=\"https://calscape.org/Monardella-undulata-(Curlyleaf-Monardella)\"> Curlyleaf Monardella\u003c/a>, is a primary nectar source for the endangered\u003ca href=\"https://www.fws.gov/species/myrtles-silverspot-butterfly-speyeria-zerene-myrtleae\"> Myrtle’s Silverspot\u003c/a> butterfly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990859\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990859\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1284\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL-800x535.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL-1020x682.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL-1536x1027.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Native plants grow in a section of dunes at Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4, 2024, that has been cleared of an invasive ice plant. The top row from left to right: curly-leaved Monardella (Monardella sinuata ssp. nigrescens), coast Indian paintbrush (Castilleja affinis) and beach layia (Layia carnosa). The bottom row from left to right are: mock heather (Ericameria ericoides), Tidestrom’s lupine (Lupinus tidestromii) and California poppy (Eschscholzia californica). This California poppy is the state flower. It’s very common around California, but usually, the flower is solid orange. The ones on the dunes tend to be much more yellow. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>And birds such as the Western Snowy Plover, which are already\u003ca href=\"https://ecos.fws.gov/ecp/species/8035\"> threatened\u003c/a>, are also made vulnerable by the nearby ice plant and beach grass. The short, white-bellied shorebird nests right in the sand on the beach. Their predators, ravens and coyotes, hide out in the thick cover of the invasives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It makes it easier for them to kind of sneak up on the nest,” Parsons said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Carpobrotus edulis\u003c/em> can also change the microbiota of the soil, making it less favorable for native plants even after ice plant is removed. So Parsons says removing an area infested by ice plants can just make space for “secondary invaders, instead of luring native flora back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For all those reasons, the staff at Point Reyes National Seashore choose their battles wisely when deciding which dune habitat to restore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re not going to get rid of all this ice plant,” Parsons said, so they choose areas that aren’t completely overrun. “Because, in a sense, you get more bang for your buck … It’s a lot easier to reestablish a native community.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Ice plant’s origins\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Today, ice plant blankets the California coastline and can also be seen in residential home gardens (where it is more welcome as an ornamental or lawn substitute).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Carpobrotus edulis\u003c/em> is not just a problem in California, though. It’s everywhere: coastal Italy, Spain, Argentina and Australia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ever since people have been buying plants and gardening, plants have been traded across international borders, UC Santa Barbara ecology professor\u003ca href=\"https://www.eemb.ucsb.edu/people/faculty/dantonio\"> Carla D’Antonio said\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People take plants with them when they go places. When the Spaniards came here, they had a whole array of species,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ice plant first came from South Africa, probably in the 1930s, according to D’Antonio.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990222\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990222\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Wetland biologist Lorraine Parsons removes ice plant (Carpobrotus edulis), an invasive species from South Africa, from a section of Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Caltrans and other transportation engineers are\u003ca href=\"https://wildlife.ca.gov/Conservation/Plants/Dont-Plant-Me/Iceplant\"> widely reported\u003c/a> to have planted it around highways, railroads and other landscapes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was planted along railroads to stabilize blowing sand,” D’Antonio said. “It’s probably pretty good at stopping cars that are out of control, you know, and stopping erosion of cliff sides or bank sides onto those highways.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There was a turning point with ice plant in the 1980s and ’90s, D’Antonio said, when natural area managers started not wanting the plant around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People were noticing that they were losing some of their beautiful…endemic coastal poppies and other things because \u003cem>Carpobrotus\u003c/em> was growing everywhere,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Other invasives\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Certainly, ice plant isn’t the only invasive plant crowding out California natives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cal-ipc.org/plants/profile/arundo-donax-profile/\">\u003cem>Arundo Donax\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, a giant reed used for roofing material and musical instruments,\u003ca href=\"https://cisr.ucr.edu/invasive-species/giant-reed\"> was brought to California in the early 1800s\u003c/a>. \u003cem>Arundo Donax\u003c/em> is particularly troublesome. It turns river areas into fuel for fires and grows back even stronger after a blaze. Tens of millions of public dollars have been used to fight its spread.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While thousands of non-native plants have been introduced into California — some of them brought intentionally, others accidentally — most of them don’t alter their environments as much as Arundo and ice plant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It isn’t that many of them that are really causing these big changes,” D’Antonio said. “But the ones that do definitely are changing the resources and the values that we want to have in our ecosystems.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990216\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990216\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ice plant (Carpobrotus edulis), an invasive species from South Africa, grows at Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Preventing ‘invasions’\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The good news is that in the past few decades, ecologists have been trying to establish some boundaries on international plant exchange, D’Antonio said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And more locally, park rangers are using a ‘boots on the ground’ approach to preventing the spread of invasives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rachel Kesel, a senior environmental scientist with California State Parks, is an evangelist for catching plant invaders before they take over entire coastlines. She’s trained park staff all over the Bay Area in early detection work, teaching them how to identify, map, and get rid of invasive plants before they become unmanageable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990219\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990219\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">National Park Service ranger Sierra Frisbie removes ice plant (Carpobrotus edulis), an invasive species from South Africa, from a section of Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>One morning in June, Kesel trained a handful of park managers and volunteers at Armstrong Redwoods State Natural Reserve in the Russian River area of Sonoma County.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She warned them about a wispy green weed called panic veldt grass or\u003ca href=\"https://www.cal-ipc.org/plants/profile/ehrharta-erecta-profile/\"> \u003cem>Ehrharta erect\u003c/em>a\u003c/a>, which she saw crop up all over Mt. Tam when she worked there for the better part of a decade. She doesn’t want the grass to invade these redwoods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It really is probably the highest priority for what to look for,” she said to the group. “It often comes in on our vehicles, mud in our tires and that sort of thing, out of our neighborhoods.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although this little blade of grass looks harmless, Kesel takes it very seriously. It has the potential to take over the forest floor; it can grow in just 2% light as well as on a sunny, soil-deprived beach. The veldt grass grows between other plants, which makes it look messy and hard to pull out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12000167\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12000167\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1475\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass-800x590.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass-1020x752.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass-160x118.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass-1536x1133.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass-1920x1416.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Rachel Kesel, senior environmental scientist for California State Parks, holds up a piece of invasive panic veldtgrass or Ehrharta erecta, in Armstrong Redwoods State Natural Reserve during a training with local park workers. \u003ccite>(Pauline Bartolone/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“It would really change that iconic look of the understory floor and kind of what people are coming into an old-growth redwood forest to see,” Kesel said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hunting down and rooting out invasives may seem like a lot of effort. But to anyone who stands among the redwoods on a hot day and soaks in the beauty of the clover-shaped sorrel on the forest floor, it probably doesn’t seem like too much to ask.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After all, we all manage weeds in our own yards, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you want to get nerdy about the invasive plants in your area, go to \u003ca href=\"https://www.cal-ipc.org/\">Cal-IPC.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’re inspired to plant California natives in your neighborhood, \u003ca href=\"https://calscape.org/\">Calscape offers design ideas and resources\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> When you think of quintessential California experiences, driving down Highway 1 is pretty tough to beat. It was one of the first things Tom McMahon did when he first visited the Bay Area in 2016.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom McMahon: \u003c/strong>I rented a car, and I drove from San Francisco down to Seacliff. And on the way, I actually stopped along a few spots. And one of them was like, Poplar Beach. And, you know, one of the things that kind of jumped out was all these green plants with the purple and yellow flowers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> What he was seeing was ice plant — a fleshy green succulent with finger-like, three-sided leaves. It grows low to the ground and spreads out over large areas, like a carpet. In spring its pink, purple, or yellow flowers burst open — its petals spreading like little fireworks. Quite frankly, it’s gorgeous! But it’s got a dark side. McMahon started studying plants with his 5-year-old daughter recently and learned this charming-looking plant is invasive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom McMahon:\u003c/strong> And this has been something that I’ve seen everywhere, and it’s part of my expectation of what the Pacific coast is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> McMahon lives in California now, and he and his daughter go on walks and see ice plant all over — it’s often used in landscaping in place of grass. She’s been asking: “If it’s invasive, why did someone put it there?” and McMahon doesn’t have a great answer. So, he asked Bay Curious for an assist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom McMahon:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I’d like to know, why are the ice plants here, who brought them here? What was their purpose? And what other things do we see every day that are actually invasive and potentially harming our local plant life and wildlife?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This week on Bay Curious, we’re delving into the world of invasive plants. We’ll answer McMahon’s questions about ice plant and explore a few other troublesome flora. That’s all just head, stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> To answer Tom McMahon’s questions about ice plant and other notorious invasives. KQED producer Pauline Bartolone got really in the weeds, hardy har har. Enjoy the ride.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Ice plant has many monikers … Carpobrotus edulis, highway ice plant, or simply sour fig. If you’ve ever set eyes on a California beach, even from a distance, you’ve seen it. From as far north as Crescent City all the way down to San Diego. When it comes to invasive species in California, ice plant is iconic. And so are the areas it invades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[Wind sounds and crashing waves]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Like the Point Reyes seashore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons: \u003c/strong>So that’s all ice plant! \u003cem>[laughs]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Oh wow, okay, that whole ridge …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons: \u003c/strong>That whole ridge is ice plant over there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>I went to the rolling dunes of Point Reyes to meet Lorraine Parsons. She’s a wetland ecologist with the National Seashore. There are miles and miles of ice plant here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons:\u003c/strong> If you drive Sir Francis Drake all the way out to the lighthouse and you look out toward the ocean, many areas are just this dense carpet of ice plant and literally no other plant species.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Parsons is here today with around 10 employees and volunteers to tear out ice plant uphill from a beach near the lighthouse. Here, they still have a chance to protect some vulnerable wildlife.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons:\u003c/strong> And we still have some native plant species, but they’re being pushed out by the ice plant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> National seashore staff have been organizing work parties like this for 25 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[sound of plants rustling, breaking]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danna Ojeda:\u003c/strong> Oh, it’s a pretty easy plant to pull.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Biotechnician Danna Ojeda is on her hands and knees ripping out ice plant, drawing her hand back like she’s pulling a plug out of a wall. Technically, you could kill ice plant with herbicide, but that can affect other plants and water sources. Ojeda says the trickiest part about tearing it out is just making sure you don’t remove other plants too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danna Ojeda:\u003c/strong> So you just pull it, and since it’s sand, it comes right off. Just make sure the roots don’t go in between any of the plants so you don’t accidentally bring them up to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Park ranger Sierra Frisbie adds her ice plant debris to a big pile.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sierra Frisbie: \u003c/strong>During a volunteer event, we try to have a competition of who can get the longest piece of ice plant and you’ll end up with something, you know, as long as your body and proudly hold it up like a big fish or something. It’s kinda your catch of the day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>While it’s a gorgeous sunny day out here, this is a beast of a project and a permanent management problem. Parsons says ice plant was actually planted here in the early to mid-1900s as a way to keep dunes, which naturally shift, from moving into nearby pastures. Ice plant is a good soil stabilizer. But it grows laterally about three feet a year. So after decades of growth, Parsons says, about 60 percent of the coastal area in Point Reyes has been taken over by ice plant and another invasive — the equally pernicious European beach grass. They’re struggling to get rid of it in areas where endangered native plants like Tidestrom’s lupine are at risk of going extinct.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons: \u003c/strong>So this is the Tidestrom’s lupine here … Again, this is a short-lived perennial plant species in the pea family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Tidestrom’s lupine is another low-to-the-ground beach-loving plant with little lavender flowers. But here, its seeds are being eaten by mice, which hide out in the nearby ice plant and European beach grass. In many areas, it hasn’t been growing back\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons: \u003c/strong>It has historically stretched from Sonoma County near Goat Rock all the way down to Monterey. And, you know, over that time, populations have been lost.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>The decline of native plants has a ripple effect on other wildlife in an ecosystem. For example, another plant here, the Curlyleaf Monardella, is a primary nectar source for an endangered butterfly. And birds such as the snowy plover, a tiny white-bellied thing, are also threatened. They nest right in the sand on the beach. And the nearby ice plant and beach grass provide cover for their predators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"margin: 0px;padding: 0px\">\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons:\u003c/strong> So, like, ravens can be in there obviously like coyotes, other animals like that, it makes it easier for them to kind of sneak up on the nest there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>And the bad news about ice plant gets worse. The invasive can also change the soil conditions, so it is less favorable for native plants even after ice plant is removed. For all those reasons, when it comes to these eradication parties, Parsons says they have to choose their battles wisely. They don’t even bother with the completely overrun areas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons:\u003c/strong> We realize we’re not going to get rid of all this beach grass, and we’re not going to get rid of all this ice plant. So I think we’re just focusing on these like moderately to sparsely invaded areas because, in a sense, you get more bang for your buck. You’ve already got the native plants here. It’s a lot easier to get, to reestablish a native community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Today, ice plant blankets the California coastline. It’s not just a problem in California, though, it’s everywhere: coastal Italy, Spain, Argentina, Australia. UC Santa Barbara ecology professor Carla D’Antonio says that’s not surprising.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carla D’Antonio: \u003c/strong>People take plants with them when they go places. When the Spaniards came here, they had a whole array of species that they brought.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>D’Antonio says there isn’t a lot of documentation about the beginnings of Carpobrotus edulis in the U.S. but there’s a consensus about its origin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carla D’Antonio: \u003c/strong>It came from South Africa. It appears to have come probably, in the 1930s. It was planted along railroads to stabilize blowing sand. It was planted along highways. It’s probably pretty good at stopping cars that are out of control, you know, and stopping erosion of cliff sides or bank sides onto those highways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Ice plant’s long and viny stems stay close to the ground as they grow, and set down many different roots along the way. The tangley mat keeps soil together underneath. That’s why Caltrans and other engineers planted it around highways, railroads and other landscapes. But when managers of natural areas like Asilomar in Monterey started getting concerned about ice plant, D’Antonio decided to do her doctoral research on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carla D’Antonio: \u003c/strong>Awareness really started to grow that this thing was showing up everywhere. People were noticing that they were losing some of their beautiful kind of endemic coastal poppies and other things because carpobrotus was growing everywhere.\u003cem>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nPauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Certainly, ice plant isn’t the only non-native plant bent on world domination. Our question asker, Tom McMahon wanted to know about others on the most-wanted list. I’d say Arundo donax would definitely be in that category. The giant reed was brought to California in the early 1800s and used for roofing material and musical instruments. Arundo donax is particularly gnarly, turning river areas into fuel for fire and growing back even stronger after a blaze. Tens of millions of public dollars have been used to fight it. All in all, D’Antonio says, thousands of non-native plants have been introduced into California. Some of them intentionally, others accidentally. Most of them play nice with native plants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carla D’Antonio:\u003c/strong> So it isn’t that many of them that are really causing these big changes. But the ones that do definitely are changing the resources and the values that we want to have in our ecosystems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> So how do we stop those world-dominating plants? D’Antonio says for the past few decades, ecologists have been trying to establish some boundaries on international plant exchange. And more locally, park rangers are using boots on the ground approaches to preventing the spread of invasives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel: \u003c/strong>So I brought a couple of things with me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>People like Rachel Kesel in Sonoma County. The park ranger is an evangelist for catching plant invaders early before they take over entire coastlines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel: \u003c/strong>So I think everybody probably knows that all folks engaged in land management spend a lot of time and money on invasive plants. And what the early detection of invasive plants approach does is try to shift some of that, hopefully, new investment of time and money that you are already spending to plants that are newer on the landscape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Kesel has trained park staff all over the Bay Area to find invasive plants early. Today, she’s in Armstrong Redwoods State Reserve in the Russian River warning a handful of park staff and volunteers about a wispy green weed called panic veldt grass, or Ehrharta erecta.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel: \u003c/strong>It often comes in on our vehicles, mud in our tires and that sort of thing out of our neighborhoods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Kesel takes this little blade of grass very seriously. She saw Ehrharta crop up all over Mt. Tam, where she worked for the better part of a decade. This thing sounds like it could withstand an apocalypse. It can grow on a forest floor in just 2 percent light, or a sunny, soil deprived beach. It grows between other plants, which makes it hard to pull out. And Kesel says it just looks messy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel: \u003c/strong>It would really change that iconic look of the understory floor and kind of what people are coming into an old-growth redwood forest to see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[footsteps]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Kesel takes a couple of park personnel out on a detection walk, to show them how they can identify the plant, and map it, so scientists can track its footprint over time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> Go, team! Now, when I come upon something like this, I’m always gonna take a twirl around it…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Is that it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> No, that is a melaka.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> It’s a native grass, thankfully. But. Good eye, you’re noticing grasses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Apparently, I can’t tell the difference between blades of grass, but Kesel seems to have developed a hawk eye for this work. When we did come across the pesky blades of grass, she broke out a plastic bag to transport the undesirables.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> I know I look paranoid, but it is dropping its seed, which is why I have it in the bag.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[rustling of plastic bag]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> So now you go in the bag, my friend …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Then, she holds up the blade of grass like it’s a contaminated Q-tip so the park workers can get a closer look. She takes out her mini magnifying glass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> So, all right. If we look at the base. Of course, this one isn’t very red because, like I said, color is a fickle character.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Finally, she shows the park workers how to map other invasives using a program on her phone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel: \u003c/strong>Go to my location. Why are you being so dumb? I talk back to my device a lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> During this trip, part of me felt like, wow, what a lot of effort to remove just a little blade of grass. But on the way out of Armstrong that day, I took a moment to stand under the shade of the redwoods and soak in the beauty. The forest floor was covered in this really pretty, delicate-looking sorrel. It’s a clover-like plant a few inches off the ground. That’s when it struck me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> I can really see why people want to preserve this place. The air is so still and soft, and I imagine much cooler than outside this redwood forest. I could spend all day here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>When it comes to preserving that feeling of the redwoods, managing invasives doesn’t seem like too much to ask. After all, we all manage weeds in our own yards, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That story was produced by Pauline Bartolone. Big thanks to Tom McMahon and his five-year-old daughter for the question. And to the California invasive plant council for their expertise on this story. If you want to learn more about invasive plants or get involved in one of those removal work parties – we’ve got a lot of resources for you online at BayCurious.org. We’ll drop a link in our show notes too. Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. You can support our show by becoming a member! Give today at donate.kqed.org.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made by Amanda Font, Olivia Allen-Price, Christopher Beale, Ana De Almeida Amaral. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED family. I’m Olivia Allen-Price, thank you for listening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You may have heard some horror stories about electric vehicle charging — long lines, lengthy waits, broken units. Sometimes even\u003cem> finding \u003c/em>a charging station is a challenge. When your car’s low on charge but no charger is available, it’s stressful. Maybe you’re halfway between San Francisco and Los Angeles and you’re stuck waiting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s one of the big things stopping Bay Curious listener Kelly Lindberg from buying an electric car right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m hoping that by 2030, between having some years to save up and the technology getting better and cheaper, maybe that’s around the time [it] could work for our family,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the meantime, Lindberg has an idea to help alleviate the charging congestion. She’s noticed a lot of empty former gas station sites around her neighborhood in Oakland and wondered, “Would it be a good idea to turn some of these spaces into electric car charging stations?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2020, Gov. Gavin Newsom set a goal for the state to ban the sale of new gas-powered vehicles by the year 2035. So even if you’ve got a gas-powered car, and this isn’t a problem you’re facing currently, it may be soon.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>How to set up a charging station\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To find out what goes into installing a new charging station, I met up with Jonah Eidus, who oversees real estate development for electric car charging company EVgo. The company has hundreds of charging stalls across the Bay Area and thousands across the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In general, when we’re installing new chargers, we’re looking to be in high-traffic areas where the chargers will be used for about 15 to 45 minutes,” Eidus said. “And that means we also want to have amenities nearby so people have something to do during those 15 to 45 minutes.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since charging your car takes longer than pumping gas, stations are designed with the surroundings in mind. They aim to install stations in the parking lot of a Safeway, for example, or close to a coffee shop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are many other considerations too, Eidus said, including the availability of parking stalls. Is there enough space for many cars to park? The goal, after all, is to build as many charging stalls per site as possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Does the site integrate well into the electrical grid? The product they are ultimately selling is electricity, so they have to make sure that a site \u003cem>has \u003c/em>the electricity to sell at an affordable price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Additionally, is the charging station set up near those who need it most, including those who live in apartment complexes and don’t have the option to charge from their own garage? There are also city zoning regulations and safety considerations to take into account.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s not even half of what goes into establishing a charging site. In fact, EVgo has a mapping algorithm that integrates 27 different factors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Suffice to say, it is a fairly sophisticated process that we go through,” Eidus said. “When a site goes live, a lot of thought and a lot of data has gone into the decision to build that site.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Improving reliability and keeping up with demand\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>California — particularly the Bay Area — \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/12/us/bay-area-electric-vehicles.html\">leads the nation\u003c/a> in electric vehicle adoption. To meet that growing demand, California has to build 1 million new chargers by the end of 2030, \u003ca href=\"https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/24795161/assembly-bill-2127-second-electric-vehicle-charging-infrastructure-second-assessment-revised-staff-report.pdf#page=52\">according to the state’s own projections (PDF)\u003c/a>. Some experts say \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/environment/climate-change/2024/07/california-electric-car-chargers-unrealistic-goals/\">that’s not feasible\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I would say we’re tight on the number of chargers,” said Carleen Cullen, co-founder of the environmental nonprofit Cool the Earth and a former transportation advisor to Gov. Newsom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not only are they in short supply, the ones we do have are not always reliable, Cullen said. She helped conduct a study a few years ago to test the reliability of charging stations in the Bay Area and found that a quarter of them weren’t functional, meaning the screens were broken, the payment system didn’t work or the equipment was flawed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cullen said while the infrastructure has improved a lot since then, there’s still not enough of it — despite the fact that \u003ca href=\"https://smartasset.com/data-studies/ev-chargers-2023\">California is outpacing other states\u003c/a> in both EV adoption and infrastructure. And in order to reach Newsom’s goal, we need consumers, charging companies, EV manufacturers, local governments and utility companies to work together, Cullen said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We need to move the adoption of EVs forward, we need to move the number of charging ports available as well, and we need to move the grid capacity as well,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11999354\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11999354\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Tashinda Richardson of Oakland plugs in her rented electric vehicle at an EVgo Fast Charging station in Oakland on Jan. 29. Richardson said it can be hard to find a charger when she needs one. Sometimes, she said, chargers won’t work or the plug will get stuck in the car. \u003ccite>(Kathryn Styer Martínez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A big hold-up right now, according to Cullen, lies with PG&E.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s a huge lag time between when the charging station vendor requests the power and when PG&E actually delivers it,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For a charging station to operate, it needs to be hooked up to the power grid. That’s where PG&E comes in. And they won’t just let you set up a charging station anywhere. They have to be able to deliver enough power to that site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Is the section of the grid you’re trying to connect to also connected to a big manufacturing plant, for example? Are your neighbors using a lot of electricity during certain times of the day? Then the available power is likely spoken for. Does that portion of the grid rely heavily on solar power? Then the chargers may not work when the sun goes down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We have over 600,000 EVs in our service territory. And we’ve seen EV adoption grow at about 26% of the compound annual growth rate over the last few years. That’s a significant amount of load that we’re seeing on the system,” said David Almeida, a manager within PG&E’s clean energy transportation group.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Almeida said the utility company underestimated electricity demand, and as a result, it doesn’t have the infrastructure to support the rapidly growing EV industry right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But they’re working on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are building out a forecast that doesn’t look at necessarily just historical load, but it looks at where we anticipate load growth,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The goal is to make electric car charging stations faster to build and more reliable once they’re up and running.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite all the work needed to bolster this transportation system overhaul, Almeida said it’s ultimately worth it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Right now, California’s transportation system is by far the \u003ca href=\"https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/ghg-inventory-data\">largest contributor\u003c/a> to our greenhouse gas emissions. Transitioning away from gas-powered cars is critical to mitigating the impacts of climate change, and EVs are already helping to do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A recent \u003ca href=\"https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.3c09642\">study\u003c/a> by scientists at UC Berkeley showed EV adoption in the Bay Area has already reduced our carbon emissions by almost 2%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ve been a believer from the very beginning,” Almeida said. “And it’s just very cool to see a lot of this prove out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay curious. And today we’re going on a little road trip.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of a car driving\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Here we go. So we are driving around San Francisco in my Volkswagen E-golf, and it’s an electric vehicle. And we’re looking for a place to charge. And I’m here with Dana Cronin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>And how do you normally find a place to charge in the city?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> It’s pretty rare that I have to find a place to charge because I mostly charge at home. But when I do have to find a place, I pull up an app on my phone and …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Safely, of course, pulled over by the side of the road.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Exactly. Let’s actually pull over real quick up here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(sound of car decelerating)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Okay, so I pull up this app on my phone and what it does is it loads all sorts of different chargers that are nearby that are owned by all sorts of different companies. The numbers mean how many charging stations are in each of these locations. Of the one that’s nearby, it looks like one is out of service; four are currently being used … but looks like one is available.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> 0.2 miles away. That’s not too bad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Yeah, let’s give it a shot. Okay, so the charger is somewhere in this enormous parking lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> You know that there’s a spot open right now because of your app, right? Or is it possible that it’s there but someone’s using it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I would … I would say I don’t feel 100% confident based on the app.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> There’s a line of Teslas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So, let’s go and see if the non-Tesla chargers are near the Tesla ones, too. Oh, and here we are to the right. … This is also Tesla charging. Just kidding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We drove around the parking lot for a while but then finally found the chargers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> So, it’s full. (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> There was a little dispute with another customer over who was there first. It was totally us, but we let it go. Eventually, another stall opened up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Charging port here, plug it in and it looks like this one gives me the option to pay by the EVgo app, or I can pay by credit card, which is actually great. It does not seem … Oh, there we go, there we go. Okay, let’s remove the card … (pause) authorization declined. I will try a different card payment. (pause) Authorized!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Step one: Complete! (laughing)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Step 7,962: pay for the charging. (laughing)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Generally, I would say this was not super easy, and yet it’s pretty much totally full.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/strong>: Yeah, I mean, it’s not easy. I feel really lucky most of the time. I charge at home because it is, you know, it’s a pain and it’s a little stressful, especially if you are really low on charge. Like I’ve been in situations where I’m really sweating it out because I go to one charging station and like the screen is broken or the Wi-Fi isn’t working, or sometimes they’ll have these in paid parking garages and they don’t tell you that. And it’s like $30 just to get in the garage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Like it feels like you do have to have an at-home charger right now for this to be convenient and conducive to your lifestyle. Like, I can’t imagine, like fully relying on this, you know. I, for one, will probably just stick with my Subaru for now. My gas-powered Subaru, for now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> On today’s episode of Bay Curious, we dive into the world of electric vehicles. I love driving mine, but as you saw, it’s not perfect. California currently dominates the EV market, and the state has a lofty goal of banning the sale of new gas-powered vehicles by 2035. So if you’re not driving an EV yet, you may be soon. Is your community set up for it? Is the Bay area’s current infrastructure matching up with the demand? We’ll get into all that just after a quick break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>SPONSOR\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>For this episode, I’m tossing to my co-pilot … reporter Dana Cronin … to explain what’s going on with the Bay Area’s EV infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Like a lot of Bay Area residents … maybe you included … I want my next car to be electric. But if my 2012 Subaru Outback died tomorrow … I’m not sure I’d be ready to make the switch. Especially after that drive with Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Kelly Lindberg … feels the same way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kelly Lindberg:\u003c/strong> You hear those stories in the news sometimes about, like, the drive between, like, Las Vegas and Los Angeles. You know, people going in their Teslas and having a super long line at the charging station.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Kelly works for a climate startup accelerator, and she’s thought, “There’s gotta be a solution to this problem.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One came to her… as she was driving through her neighborhood in Oakland. She’s noticed a lot of abandoned gas stations around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kelly Lindberg:\u003c/strong> Would it be a good idea to maybe turn some of these spaces into electric car charging stations?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>I mean … sounds like a good idea to me. I, too, live in Oakland and have noticed quite a few empty lots. Whether they’re former gas stations, convenience stores, or storefronts … it seems like there’s plenty of empty space for charging stations to set up shop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But, to do that, you first need a charging company. So, I met with one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(sounds of loud road noise)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Jonah Eidus is wearing a navy-logoed polo and is parked at an EVgo charging station. He oversees EVgo’s real estate department.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>EVgo has hundreds of charging stalls in the Bay Area … the one we’re meeting at is in Oakland’s Fruitvale neighborhood … right off of 580 on Fruitvale Avenue. It’s set up at a Shell gas station.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> So this site is an eight-stall, fast-charging site, capable of delivering up to 350 kW to each car. And it is definitely one of the more popular stations in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>That’s enough to charge most modern EVs in less than 20 minutes. And it is popular! Over the course of our interview … all eight stalls were full almost the whole time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Without wasting any time, I posed Kelly’s question. Could empty lots and gas stations near her house get setups like this one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> In general, when we’re installing new chargers, we’re looking to be in high-traffic areas where the chargers will be used for about 15 to 45 minutes. And that means we also want to have amenities nearby so people have something to do during those 15 to 45 minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>It takes longer to charge your car’s battery than it does to pump gas. So this charging station, for example, is right next to a Peet’s Coffee and a Farmer Joe’s grocery store. A perfect place to run some errands while you wait.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As we’re talking, Dave Robinson drives up in his brand new 2023 KIA EV6, backs into a stall, and plugs in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>What do you plan to do while you wait?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dave Robinson:\u003c/strong> Just hang out. You know, if it’s going to be a while, there’s coffee shops and everything else around. So it’s easy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Convenience! It’s a big factor in selecting a charging site, Jonah says. But there are lots of other factors, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus: \u003c/strong>Availability of parking stalls, grid interconnection, forecasted charging demand, electricity rates and importantly, multifamily housing density nearby the charging station.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>OK … let’s take those one at a time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> Availability of parking stalls …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Meaning … is there enough space for cars to park here? The goal is to build as many charging stalls as possible per site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> … grid interconnection …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>This one is super important. Because after all, the product they are ultimately selling … is electricity. And they need to make sure that a specific site HAS the electricity to sell\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> … forecasted charging demand … electricity rates …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>How many customers do they expect, and how much will those customers have to pay to charge? The cost of electricity can \u003cem>literally \u003c/em>vary block to block.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>And … EVGo is a for-profit company after all … so it needs to pencil out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> … and importantly, multifamily housing density nearby the charging station.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Is the charging station set up near those who need it the most? Those who live in apartment complexes, for example, don’t have the option to charge from their own garage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s not even \u003cem>half \u003c/em>the considerations that go into establishing a charging site. There’s also things like a city’s zoning regulations … and safety considerations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In fact, EVgo has a mapping algorithm that integrates 27 different factors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus: \u003c/strong>Suffice to say, it is a fairly sophisticated process that we go through. And when a site goes live, a lot of thought and a lot of data has gone into the decision to build that site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Jonah couldn’t say exactly whether the specific abandoned gas stations in Kelly’s neighborhood could be converted to charging sites … I guess that’s a question for the algorithm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(music)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem> \u003c/em>So that’s how companies choose specific charging sites … and avoid others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But at the \u003cem>heart \u003c/em>of Kelly’s question … is a bigger question. Clearly, we need MORE charging stations … whether at abandoned gas stations … or near coffee shops and grocery stores. So … why hasn’t the electric vehicle charging infrastructure kept up with demand?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To answer that question, I met up with Carleen Cullen. She’s the co-founder of the environmental nonprofit Cool the Earth and a former transportation advisor to Governor Newsom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(sounds of a busy parking lot)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>We meet up at another charging station … this one in the parking lot of a Safeway in Mill Valley. We’re chatting next to Carleen’s Chevy Bolt … which is parked in a stall, ready to charge … when, all of a sudden, another EV driver pulls up behind us and asks how long we plan to be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>I guess that’s part of the challenge is that there’s so few chargers that we have someone waiting on us here waiting for a charge, somewhat impatiently. So we’re going to go ahead and get charging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen:\u003c/strong> Let’s get started.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Carleen swipes her credit card, pulls the charger around to her car, plugs in, and it starts charging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(sound of the high-pitched hum from the charger)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen: \u003c/strong>So when you hear that great hum, you know that that’s happening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Carleen is somewhat of an electric vehicle evangelist … an E-V-vangelist … if you will. Half the time we spent together I felt like I was in an EV infomercial. But she’s not naive. She knows the current infrastructure is flawed. In fact, she did a study a few years ago where she tested the reliability of charging stations in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen: \u003c/strong>And we found that about a quarter of the stations in the Bay area weren’t functional.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Meaning the screens were broken or the payment system didn’t work or the equipment was flawed. She says the infrastructure has improved a lot since then, but there’s still not enough of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen: \u003c/strong>I would say we’re tight on the number of chargers. Yeah, we’re definitely tight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>And that’s in part because … what we’re talking about here … is a MAJOR overhaul of an entire transportation system. In 2020, Governor Newsom set a goal to ban the sale of new gas-powered vehicles in California by the year 2035. And California is outpacing other states in both EV adoption and infrastructure by a long shot. We have more chargers than any other state. But in order to reach that lofty goal … Carleen says we need three things:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen:\u003c/strong> We need to move the adoption of EVs forward. We need to move the number of charging ports available as well, and we need to move the grid capacity as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>These things all have to happen simultaneously. Consumers, charging companies, EV manufacturers, utility companies, local governments … everyone has to work in concert for this to work. Carleen says, right now, the utility companies aren’t necessarily pulling their weight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen: \u003c/strong>There’s a huge lag time between when the station, the charging station vendor requests the power and when PG&E actually delivers it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>For a charging station to operate, it needs to be hooked up to our power grid. That’s where PG&E comes in. And they won’t just let you set up a charging station ANYWHERE. They have to be able to deliver enough power to that site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Is the section of the grid you’re trying to connect to also connected to a big manufacturing plant … for example? Are your neighbors using a lot of electricity during certain times of the day? Then the available power is likely spoken for. Does that portion of the grid rely heavily on solar power? Then the chargers may not work when the sun goes down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These are critical considerations, says David Almeida … a manager within PG&E’s clean energy transportation group. And he says Carleen’s critique is fair. He says, yes, the utility is definitely still playing catch-up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Almeida:\u003c/strong> So we have over 600,000 EVs in our service territory. And we’ve seen EV adoption grow at about 26% of the compound annual growth rate over the last few years. That’s a significant amount of load that we’re seeing on the system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>He also says … they didn’t plan for that increased demand for electricity. In fact, they UNDERestimated it … and, as a result, they don’t have the infrastructure to support it right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But, he says, they’re working on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Almeida: \u003c/strong>We are building out a forecast that doesn’t look at necessarily just historical load, but it looks at where we anticipate load growth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>He says their goal is to make electric car charging stations faster to build and more reliable once they’re up and running.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>This all sounds like a lot of work. Overhauling our entire state’s transportation system … building thousands and thousands of new charging stations … getting utility companies on board … I’m exhausted just thinking about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But it’s important to remember WHY we’re doing this. Right now, California’s transportation system is BY FAR the largest contributor to our greenhouse gas emissions. Transitioning away from gas-powered cars is critical to mitigating the impacts of climate change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And Evs are already helping to do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A recent study by scientists at UC Berkeley showed EV adoption in the Bay Area has already reduced our carbon emissions by almost 2 percent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, obviously, to keep up that progress … the system has to work for EVERYONE. And I’m not sure we’re there yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music sneaks in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> What do you think, Olivia? Any more sympathy for the cause?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> You know, yeah. I didn’t realize there were so many hurdles to getting new charging stations online. I feel really lucky that I am able to charge my car at home and so this isn’t an issue I have to deal with very often. But for folks who can’t charge overnight where they live — that’s a huge hurdle. And I’m sure it’s a non-starter for some people! It’s got to get better.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Yeah … 2035 is not THAT far away … and if we’re gonna reach that goal, we’re going to need more charging stations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m kind of hoping my Subaru lasts just a couple more years …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Dana Cronin — thank you!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was KQED’s Dana Cronin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This story would not have been possible without our question-asker, Kelly Lindberg. That’s because you, our dear audience, decide what we cover by submitting questions — and then voting on which ones we should answer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We have a new voting round-up at BayCurious.org with three enticing questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 1:\u003c/strong> Why did Oakland International Airport become San Francisco Bay Oakland International Airport, giving us two very confusingly similar-sounding airports?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 2:\u003c/strong> I remember going to the Berkeley dump, now Cesar Chavez Park, with my dad in the 1970s. It was pretty wild. It’d be really interesting to learn more about its evolution from dump to park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 3:\u003c/strong> I was walking my dog on Thornton Beach on the Daly City/SF border and found a really long tunnel coming out of the hillside around some abandoned piers. Any idea what it is?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Voting is so easy! Just grab your phone, pull up BayCurious.org, scroll to our voting round and click on your favorite question! No registering or emails or phone numbers or anything complicated. We try to make it easy on you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Amanda Font, Olivia Allen-Price, Christopher Beale. Special thanks to Laura Klivans, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You may have heard some horror stories about electric vehicle charging — long lines, lengthy waits, broken units. Sometimes even\u003cem> finding \u003c/em>a charging station is a challenge. When your car’s low on charge but no charger is available, it’s stressful. Maybe you’re halfway between San Francisco and Los Angeles and you’re stuck waiting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s one of the big things stopping Bay Curious listener Kelly Lindberg from buying an electric car right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m hoping that by 2030, between having some years to save up and the technology getting better and cheaper, maybe that’s around the time [it] could work for our family,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the meantime, Lindberg has an idea to help alleviate the charging congestion. She’s noticed a lot of empty former gas station sites around her neighborhood in Oakland and wondered, “Would it be a good idea to turn some of these spaces into electric car charging stations?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2020, Gov. Gavin Newsom set a goal for the state to ban the sale of new gas-powered vehicles by the year 2035. So even if you’ve got a gas-powered car, and this isn’t a problem you’re facing currently, it may be soon.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>How to set up a charging station\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To find out what goes into installing a new charging station, I met up with Jonah Eidus, who oversees real estate development for electric car charging company EVgo. The company has hundreds of charging stalls across the Bay Area and thousands across the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In general, when we’re installing new chargers, we’re looking to be in high-traffic areas where the chargers will be used for about 15 to 45 minutes,” Eidus said. “And that means we also want to have amenities nearby so people have something to do during those 15 to 45 minutes.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since charging your car takes longer than pumping gas, stations are designed with the surroundings in mind. They aim to install stations in the parking lot of a Safeway, for example, or close to a coffee shop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are many other considerations too, Eidus said, including the availability of parking stalls. Is there enough space for many cars to park? The goal, after all, is to build as many charging stalls per site as possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Does the site integrate well into the electrical grid? The product they are ultimately selling is electricity, so they have to make sure that a site \u003cem>has \u003c/em>the electricity to sell at an affordable price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Additionally, is the charging station set up near those who need it most, including those who live in apartment complexes and don’t have the option to charge from their own garage? There are also city zoning regulations and safety considerations to take into account.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s not even half of what goes into establishing a charging site. In fact, EVgo has a mapping algorithm that integrates 27 different factors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Suffice to say, it is a fairly sophisticated process that we go through,” Eidus said. “When a site goes live, a lot of thought and a lot of data has gone into the decision to build that site.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Improving reliability and keeping up with demand\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>California — particularly the Bay Area — \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/12/us/bay-area-electric-vehicles.html\">leads the nation\u003c/a> in electric vehicle adoption. To meet that growing demand, California has to build 1 million new chargers by the end of 2030, \u003ca href=\"https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/24795161/assembly-bill-2127-second-electric-vehicle-charging-infrastructure-second-assessment-revised-staff-report.pdf#page=52\">according to the state’s own projections (PDF)\u003c/a>. Some experts say \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/environment/climate-change/2024/07/california-electric-car-chargers-unrealistic-goals/\">that’s not feasible\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I would say we’re tight on the number of chargers,” said Carleen Cullen, co-founder of the environmental nonprofit Cool the Earth and a former transportation advisor to Gov. Newsom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not only are they in short supply, the ones we do have are not always reliable, Cullen said. She helped conduct a study a few years ago to test the reliability of charging stations in the Bay Area and found that a quarter of them weren’t functional, meaning the screens were broken, the payment system didn’t work or the equipment was flawed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cullen said while the infrastructure has improved a lot since then, there’s still not enough of it — despite the fact that \u003ca href=\"https://smartasset.com/data-studies/ev-chargers-2023\">California is outpacing other states\u003c/a> in both EV adoption and infrastructure. And in order to reach Newsom’s goal, we need consumers, charging companies, EV manufacturers, local governments and utility companies to work together, Cullen said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We need to move the adoption of EVs forward, we need to move the number of charging ports available as well, and we need to move the grid capacity as well,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11999354\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11999354\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Tashinda Richardson of Oakland plugs in her rented electric vehicle at an EVgo Fast Charging station in Oakland on Jan. 29. Richardson said it can be hard to find a charger when she needs one. Sometimes, she said, chargers won’t work or the plug will get stuck in the car. \u003ccite>(Kathryn Styer Martínez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A big hold-up right now, according to Cullen, lies with PG&E.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s a huge lag time between when the charging station vendor requests the power and when PG&E actually delivers it,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For a charging station to operate, it needs to be hooked up to the power grid. That’s where PG&E comes in. And they won’t just let you set up a charging station anywhere. They have to be able to deliver enough power to that site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Is the section of the grid you’re trying to connect to also connected to a big manufacturing plant, for example? Are your neighbors using a lot of electricity during certain times of the day? Then the available power is likely spoken for. Does that portion of the grid rely heavily on solar power? Then the chargers may not work when the sun goes down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We have over 600,000 EVs in our service territory. And we’ve seen EV adoption grow at about 26% of the compound annual growth rate over the last few years. That’s a significant amount of load that we’re seeing on the system,” said David Almeida, a manager within PG&E’s clean energy transportation group.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Almeida said the utility company underestimated electricity demand, and as a result, it doesn’t have the infrastructure to support the rapidly growing EV industry right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But they’re working on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are building out a forecast that doesn’t look at necessarily just historical load, but it looks at where we anticipate load growth,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The goal is to make electric car charging stations faster to build and more reliable once they’re up and running.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite all the work needed to bolster this transportation system overhaul, Almeida said it’s ultimately worth it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Right now, California’s transportation system is by far the \u003ca href=\"https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/ghg-inventory-data\">largest contributor\u003c/a> to our greenhouse gas emissions. Transitioning away from gas-powered cars is critical to mitigating the impacts of climate change, and EVs are already helping to do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A recent \u003ca href=\"https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.3c09642\">study\u003c/a> by scientists at UC Berkeley showed EV adoption in the Bay Area has already reduced our carbon emissions by almost 2%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ve been a believer from the very beginning,” Almeida said. “And it’s just very cool to see a lot of this prove out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay curious. And today we’re going on a little road trip.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of a car driving\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Here we go. So we are driving around San Francisco in my Volkswagen E-golf, and it’s an electric vehicle. And we’re looking for a place to charge. And I’m here with Dana Cronin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>And how do you normally find a place to charge in the city?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> It’s pretty rare that I have to find a place to charge because I mostly charge at home. But when I do have to find a place, I pull up an app on my phone and …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Safely, of course, pulled over by the side of the road.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Exactly. Let’s actually pull over real quick up here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(sound of car decelerating)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Okay, so I pull up this app on my phone and what it does is it loads all sorts of different chargers that are nearby that are owned by all sorts of different companies. The numbers mean how many charging stations are in each of these locations. Of the one that’s nearby, it looks like one is out of service; four are currently being used … but looks like one is available.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> 0.2 miles away. That’s not too bad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Yeah, let’s give it a shot. Okay, so the charger is somewhere in this enormous parking lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> You know that there’s a spot open right now because of your app, right? Or is it possible that it’s there but someone’s using it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I would … I would say I don’t feel 100% confident based on the app.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> There’s a line of Teslas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So, let’s go and see if the non-Tesla chargers are near the Tesla ones, too. Oh, and here we are to the right. … This is also Tesla charging. Just kidding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We drove around the parking lot for a while but then finally found the chargers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> So, it’s full. (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> There was a little dispute with another customer over who was there first. It was totally us, but we let it go. Eventually, another stall opened up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Charging port here, plug it in and it looks like this one gives me the option to pay by the EVgo app, or I can pay by credit card, which is actually great. It does not seem … Oh, there we go, there we go. Okay, let’s remove the card … (pause) authorization declined. I will try a different card payment. (pause) Authorized!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Step one: Complete! (laughing)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Step 7,962: pay for the charging. (laughing)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Generally, I would say this was not super easy, and yet it’s pretty much totally full.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/strong>: Yeah, I mean, it’s not easy. I feel really lucky most of the time. I charge at home because it is, you know, it’s a pain and it’s a little stressful, especially if you are really low on charge. Like I’ve been in situations where I’m really sweating it out because I go to one charging station and like the screen is broken or the Wi-Fi isn’t working, or sometimes they’ll have these in paid parking garages and they don’t tell you that. And it’s like $30 just to get in the garage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Like it feels like you do have to have an at-home charger right now for this to be convenient and conducive to your lifestyle. Like, I can’t imagine, like fully relying on this, you know. I, for one, will probably just stick with my Subaru for now. My gas-powered Subaru, for now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> On today’s episode of Bay Curious, we dive into the world of electric vehicles. I love driving mine, but as you saw, it’s not perfect. California currently dominates the EV market, and the state has a lofty goal of banning the sale of new gas-powered vehicles by 2035. So if you’re not driving an EV yet, you may be soon. Is your community set up for it? Is the Bay area’s current infrastructure matching up with the demand? We’ll get into all that just after a quick break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>SPONSOR\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>For this episode, I’m tossing to my co-pilot … reporter Dana Cronin … to explain what’s going on with the Bay Area’s EV infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Like a lot of Bay Area residents … maybe you included … I want my next car to be electric. But if my 2012 Subaru Outback died tomorrow … I’m not sure I’d be ready to make the switch. Especially after that drive with Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Kelly Lindberg … feels the same way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kelly Lindberg:\u003c/strong> You hear those stories in the news sometimes about, like, the drive between, like, Las Vegas and Los Angeles. You know, people going in their Teslas and having a super long line at the charging station.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Kelly works for a climate startup accelerator, and she’s thought, “There’s gotta be a solution to this problem.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One came to her… as she was driving through her neighborhood in Oakland. She’s noticed a lot of abandoned gas stations around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kelly Lindberg:\u003c/strong> Would it be a good idea to maybe turn some of these spaces into electric car charging stations?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>I mean … sounds like a good idea to me. I, too, live in Oakland and have noticed quite a few empty lots. Whether they’re former gas stations, convenience stores, or storefronts … it seems like there’s plenty of empty space for charging stations to set up shop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But, to do that, you first need a charging company. So, I met with one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(sounds of loud road noise)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Jonah Eidus is wearing a navy-logoed polo and is parked at an EVgo charging station. He oversees EVgo’s real estate department.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>EVgo has hundreds of charging stalls in the Bay Area … the one we’re meeting at is in Oakland’s Fruitvale neighborhood … right off of 580 on Fruitvale Avenue. It’s set up at a Shell gas station.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> So this site is an eight-stall, fast-charging site, capable of delivering up to 350 kW to each car. And it is definitely one of the more popular stations in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>That’s enough to charge most modern EVs in less than 20 minutes. And it is popular! Over the course of our interview … all eight stalls were full almost the whole time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Without wasting any time, I posed Kelly’s question. Could empty lots and gas stations near her house get setups like this one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> In general, when we’re installing new chargers, we’re looking to be in high-traffic areas where the chargers will be used for about 15 to 45 minutes. And that means we also want to have amenities nearby so people have something to do during those 15 to 45 minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>It takes longer to charge your car’s battery than it does to pump gas. So this charging station, for example, is right next to a Peet’s Coffee and a Farmer Joe’s grocery store. A perfect place to run some errands while you wait.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As we’re talking, Dave Robinson drives up in his brand new 2023 KIA EV6, backs into a stall, and plugs in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>What do you plan to do while you wait?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dave Robinson:\u003c/strong> Just hang out. You know, if it’s going to be a while, there’s coffee shops and everything else around. So it’s easy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Convenience! It’s a big factor in selecting a charging site, Jonah says. But there are lots of other factors, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus: \u003c/strong>Availability of parking stalls, grid interconnection, forecasted charging demand, electricity rates and importantly, multifamily housing density nearby the charging station.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>OK … let’s take those one at a time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> Availability of parking stalls …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Meaning … is there enough space for cars to park here? The goal is to build as many charging stalls as possible per site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> … grid interconnection …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>This one is super important. Because after all, the product they are ultimately selling … is electricity. And they need to make sure that a specific site HAS the electricity to sell\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> … forecasted charging demand … electricity rates …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>How many customers do they expect, and how much will those customers have to pay to charge? The cost of electricity can \u003cem>literally \u003c/em>vary block to block.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>And … EVGo is a for-profit company after all … so it needs to pencil out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> … and importantly, multifamily housing density nearby the charging station.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Is the charging station set up near those who need it the most? Those who live in apartment complexes, for example, don’t have the option to charge from their own garage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s not even \u003cem>half \u003c/em>the considerations that go into establishing a charging site. There’s also things like a city’s zoning regulations … and safety considerations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In fact, EVgo has a mapping algorithm that integrates 27 different factors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus: \u003c/strong>Suffice to say, it is a fairly sophisticated process that we go through. And when a site goes live, a lot of thought and a lot of data has gone into the decision to build that site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Jonah couldn’t say exactly whether the specific abandoned gas stations in Kelly’s neighborhood could be converted to charging sites … I guess that’s a question for the algorithm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(music)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem> \u003c/em>So that’s how companies choose specific charging sites … and avoid others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But at the \u003cem>heart \u003c/em>of Kelly’s question … is a bigger question. Clearly, we need MORE charging stations … whether at abandoned gas stations … or near coffee shops and grocery stores. So … why hasn’t the electric vehicle charging infrastructure kept up with demand?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To answer that question, I met up with Carleen Cullen. She’s the co-founder of the environmental nonprofit Cool the Earth and a former transportation advisor to Governor Newsom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(sounds of a busy parking lot)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>We meet up at another charging station … this one in the parking lot of a Safeway in Mill Valley. We’re chatting next to Carleen’s Chevy Bolt … which is parked in a stall, ready to charge … when, all of a sudden, another EV driver pulls up behind us and asks how long we plan to be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>I guess that’s part of the challenge is that there’s so few chargers that we have someone waiting on us here waiting for a charge, somewhat impatiently. So we’re going to go ahead and get charging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen:\u003c/strong> Let’s get started.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Carleen swipes her credit card, pulls the charger around to her car, plugs in, and it starts charging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(sound of the high-pitched hum from the charger)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen: \u003c/strong>So when you hear that great hum, you know that that’s happening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Carleen is somewhat of an electric vehicle evangelist … an E-V-vangelist … if you will. Half the time we spent together I felt like I was in an EV infomercial. But she’s not naive. She knows the current infrastructure is flawed. In fact, she did a study a few years ago where she tested the reliability of charging stations in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen: \u003c/strong>And we found that about a quarter of the stations in the Bay area weren’t functional.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Meaning the screens were broken or the payment system didn’t work or the equipment was flawed. She says the infrastructure has improved a lot since then, but there’s still not enough of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen: \u003c/strong>I would say we’re tight on the number of chargers. Yeah, we’re definitely tight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>And that’s in part because … what we’re talking about here … is a MAJOR overhaul of an entire transportation system. In 2020, Governor Newsom set a goal to ban the sale of new gas-powered vehicles in California by the year 2035. And California is outpacing other states in both EV adoption and infrastructure by a long shot. We have more chargers than any other state. But in order to reach that lofty goal … Carleen says we need three things:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen:\u003c/strong> We need to move the adoption of EVs forward. We need to move the number of charging ports available as well, and we need to move the grid capacity as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>These things all have to happen simultaneously. Consumers, charging companies, EV manufacturers, utility companies, local governments … everyone has to work in concert for this to work. Carleen says, right now, the utility companies aren’t necessarily pulling their weight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen: \u003c/strong>There’s a huge lag time between when the station, the charging station vendor requests the power and when PG&E actually delivers it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>For a charging station to operate, it needs to be hooked up to our power grid. That’s where PG&E comes in. And they won’t just let you set up a charging station ANYWHERE. They have to be able to deliver enough power to that site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Is the section of the grid you’re trying to connect to also connected to a big manufacturing plant … for example? Are your neighbors using a lot of electricity during certain times of the day? Then the available power is likely spoken for. Does that portion of the grid rely heavily on solar power? Then the chargers may not work when the sun goes down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These are critical considerations, says David Almeida … a manager within PG&E’s clean energy transportation group. And he says Carleen’s critique is fair. He says, yes, the utility is definitely still playing catch-up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Almeida:\u003c/strong> So we have over 600,000 EVs in our service territory. And we’ve seen EV adoption grow at about 26% of the compound annual growth rate over the last few years. That’s a significant amount of load that we’re seeing on the system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>He also says … they didn’t plan for that increased demand for electricity. In fact, they UNDERestimated it … and, as a result, they don’t have the infrastructure to support it right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But, he says, they’re working on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Almeida: \u003c/strong>We are building out a forecast that doesn’t look at necessarily just historical load, but it looks at where we anticipate load growth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>He says their goal is to make electric car charging stations faster to build and more reliable once they’re up and running.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>This all sounds like a lot of work. Overhauling our entire state’s transportation system … building thousands and thousands of new charging stations … getting utility companies on board … I’m exhausted just thinking about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But it’s important to remember WHY we’re doing this. Right now, California’s transportation system is BY FAR the largest contributor to our greenhouse gas emissions. Transitioning away from gas-powered cars is critical to mitigating the impacts of climate change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And Evs are already helping to do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A recent study by scientists at UC Berkeley showed EV adoption in the Bay Area has already reduced our carbon emissions by almost 2 percent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, obviously, to keep up that progress … the system has to work for EVERYONE. And I’m not sure we’re there yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music sneaks in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> What do you think, Olivia? Any more sympathy for the cause?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> You know, yeah. I didn’t realize there were so many hurdles to getting new charging stations online. I feel really lucky that I am able to charge my car at home and so this isn’t an issue I have to deal with very often. But for folks who can’t charge overnight where they live — that’s a huge hurdle. And I’m sure it’s a non-starter for some people! It’s got to get better.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Yeah … 2035 is not THAT far away … and if we’re gonna reach that goal, we’re going to need more charging stations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m kind of hoping my Subaru lasts just a couple more years …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Dana Cronin — thank you!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was KQED’s Dana Cronin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This story would not have been possible without our question-asker, Kelly Lindberg. That’s because you, our dear audience, decide what we cover by submitting questions — and then voting on which ones we should answer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We have a new voting round-up at BayCurious.org with three enticing questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 1:\u003c/strong> Why did Oakland International Airport become San Francisco Bay Oakland International Airport, giving us two very confusingly similar-sounding airports?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 2:\u003c/strong> I remember going to the Berkeley dump, now Cesar Chavez Park, with my dad in the 1970s. It was pretty wild. It’d be really interesting to learn more about its evolution from dump to park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 3:\u003c/strong> I was walking my dog on Thornton Beach on the Daly City/SF border and found a really long tunnel coming out of the hillside around some abandoned piers. Any idea what it is?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Voting is so easy! Just grab your phone, pull up BayCurious.org, scroll to our voting round and click on your favorite question! No registering or emails or phone numbers or anything complicated. We try to make it easy on you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Amanda Font, Olivia Allen-Price, Christopher Beale. Special thanks to Laura Klivans, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Transcript: Scarlot Harlot Made Sex Worker Rights Her Life's Work",
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"content": "\u003cp>It has been called “the world’s oldest profession,” but it’s not one that’s often discussed openly. Of course, we’re talking about sex work. Attitudes about certain parts of the industry—from porn to strip clubs—have evolved over time, and so has the language used to discuss it. Even the term “sex work” is relatively new. This week, reporter Steven Rascón brings us the story of the woman who coined the term, and the history of the sex worker rights movement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode contains frank discussions about sexual acts, and sex work—some of which is criminalized in California. And it includes some outdated language.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Episode Transcript:\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Quick note before we get started – This episode contains frank discussions about sexual acts, and sex work, some of which is criminalized in California, and it includes some outdated language.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s a $14 billion dollar industry in the United States, but you’re unlikely to read about it in the Wall Street Journal. It’s been called the world’s oldest profession, but you can’t go to college for it. It’s been a part of our region’s story since the earliest days of the Gold Rush and yet, our history books tend to skim over some details. I’m talking about sex work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[baycuriousbug] \u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">From the early days in San Francisco, when brothels lined Pacific Avenue to the sexual revolution of the 60s and 70s that saw a proliferation of strip clubs, porn shops, and massage parlors– Sex has practically always been for sale in this town. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Public attitudes about fully decriminalizing sex work have swung back and forth over the years,\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> in part because of the work of activists with The Sex Worker Rights Movement. At the center of that movement in the 70s was Margo St. James, a former sex worker in San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Margo St. James: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I enjoyed it very much. I enjoyed the mobility, I enjoyed the money, the freedom that it gave me to move around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">St. James was an activist who made sex work a\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> labor\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> issue. She argued that it was a job like any other – something you did to pay the bills. And these workers deserved the same safety and health care protections as anyone else. Standing just beside her in that early fight was another activist in the movement…\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’ve been a prostitute and a prostitute rights advocate for more than 10 years. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Her name is Carol Leigh but she’s probably best known by the name “Scarlot Harlot.” She took a flamboyant approach to fighting the stigma around sex work. And she spoke openly about it in a way that sometimes took people by surprise. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People always ask how did a nice girl like you ever get started in this line of work? But, you know, there’s a popular misconception. Actually, prostitutes are very very nice. That’s part of the skill that we need in order to keep our clientele.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Today on Bay Curious, we’re shining a light on Carol Leigh – \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> who is credited with transforming how sex workers talk about the profession \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and so much more. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious – the show that explores the hidden true stories of the San Francisco Bay Area. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Carol Leigh was an activist in San Francisco who fought for the legitimacy of sex worker rights. Reporter Steven Rascón brings us Carol’s story. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I met Carol over Zoom in 2021. She was 70 years old at the time, and told me about how she grew up in a socialist family in New York. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">My mother on Long Island. She was an avid feminist. We kind of became feminists in the early seventies at the same time together. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol was a graduate student at Boston University studying creative writing.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She wanted to be a poet.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She also prided herself on being a feminist, she loved how the movement called for equal opportunity for women. How it demanded they not be objectified. But for Carol it wasn’t a perfect fit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There were problems within feminism that I hadn’t really understood, In regards to sexual expression and sexual identity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">At this point Carol wasn’t doing sex work yet. But she was drawn to it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Now I had been curious about prostitution, but still as a feminist, I did feel like it was a capitulation to men. Cause you know, we would give them blow jobs. And they didn’t even have to be nice to us. I thought that sounded like a bad thing. And then I had all kinds of stereotype visions of what the experience was like, of course, it being degrading.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Eventually, she would give in to her sexual curiosities. First, in small doses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When I was, uh, mid twenties, I danced at the golden banana in Peabody, Massachusetts on amateur night. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Golden Banana. A small strip club. Carol dressed up in lingerie and did a silly burlesque number. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: It was fun and I loved it. \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The audience of mostly businessmen also loved her “lusty little comedy” bit, as she called it. Then in 1978, Carol moved to San Francisco. She wanted something different from the east coast. But the city was expensive and Carol was strapped for cash. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And I basically didn’t have much money. I always tried to live hand to mouth, I worked as a waitress. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol worked a number of odd jobs but nothing seemed to stick. So she asked about the massage parlor scene. She saw storefronts in the Tenderloin neighborhood that said “sex, massage, girls” she walked into one– a massage parlor called The Hong Kong.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sleazy massage parlor. I knew they sold sex because they weren’t selling ambiance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She says\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> that’s\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> when she gave a blow job to her first client. She wrote about the experience in her memoir: \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Unrepentant Whore: The collected works of Scarlot Harlot. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She writes “he was a guy in his mid 30’s”– cuter than most of her boyfriends. Then on her way home, she says she saw her reflection in the train car window, looked at herself and said proudly, “Now there’s a prostitute.” \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was working amongst women from all over the world. I was fascinated with how they dealt with prostitution. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol got to know her co-workers. Over time, the negative stereo-types she’d heard about sex work and those doing it, started to fade.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I met women who seemed like they were robust and rebellious and funny, and this is not what I expected. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol liked the flexibility of the job. She worked during the day and focused on her writing at night. And she wanted to meet \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">other\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> workers. And get involved with issues that mattered to her… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So the first thing I did probably within a week or two was look for Margo. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Margo as in Margo St. James – a big name in the community who started Call Off Your Old Tired Ethics or COYOTE for short – the activist group for sex workers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Margo St. James: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Well,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">my goal is, of course, is complete decriminalization of sex for human beings, just because we’re getting paid for our time doesn’t mean it has to be, uh, uh, you know, something you go to jail for.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Margo had strong relationships with the press and with local lawmakers. Carol remembers seeing Margo at her first COYOTE meeting. She says Margo used her quick wit to cut through the hypocrisy of the issues. But it was Margo’s sex positive attitude as a feminist that really inspired Carol. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">From knowing Margo and knowing her message. I saw that there is another feminism and she made feminism make sense to me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol continued going to COYOTE meetings. And at one of those meetings she met Annie Sprinkle, a sex worker living in New York at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh my God, so Caro Leigh. We became friends in the late 70s through COYOTE and Sex Worker Rights and through Margo St. James. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol and Annie bonded over a lot. They were both Jewish girls from middle class families. They loved art, film and theater. And for them sex work was a means of financial stability. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We were independent and we chose to do it. Nobody forced us to be prostitutes. We chose to do it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They both had started doing sex work in massage parlors. And they both noticed the same issues…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I worked in a massage parlor for three months. But of course the place got busted… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Massage parlors were easy targets for undercover police stings because of how public\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">they were. If a worker solicited an undercover cop at one of these parlors, they could be arrested. But Carol and Annie noticed this didn’t do anything to stop consensual sex workers. All it did was give them a criminal record. Typically someone who was arrested would go back to a different\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">parlor. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We knew that criminalizing sex work was just basically wrong. We were all aware that what we were doing was dangerous.\u003c/span> \u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Eventually Carol and Annie started working independently with their own roster of clients, as call girls. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They often exchanged notes about clients at COYOTE meetings to know who was trustworthy \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and not a cop\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 1978, the same year she joined COYOTE, Carol became a spokesperson for the group. She was an outspoken and proud sex worker. It was a vulnerable position but she thought it was important to share her experience.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was always going around and trying to present a sex worker’s point of view at different locations with COYOTE.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One day, she went to a talk led by a group of feminists about how the porn industry took advantage of women.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And There was a workshop about the “sex use” industry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The group referred to it as the sex use industry because they felt all women in the sex trade were being oppressed. Carol was familiar with this argument. She noticed the name of the workshop and spoke up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And I looked at that and I thought, wait, if we’re a feminist, we should be defining it. Not by what the men do, the men use, the services, but by what the women do, women do sex work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“Sex work” Nobody had ever referred to (it) as sex work then. But Carol made the case. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We always felt that it was work //You show up for your job, you have a schedule and you do it just like you would a manicure or something like that. It was just work. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She knew most people wouldn’t agree with her because they saw what she was doing as a moral issue not a labor one.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I understood that those who are opposed to prostitution. Were resisting, seeing it as work, So I felt like that was one difference that I wanted to highlight, so I coined the term “sex work”.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">sex work, yeah. I had not heard the term before, before I met Carol.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Joya Corey, an acting teacher in the Bay Area. Carol wasn’t just being a spokesperson for COYOTE at the time. She was also working with Joya and taking her acting classes. Carol loved making art and dabbled in all kinds – painting, guitar, writing. And she loved poetry most of all. A friend of hers said she spent almost every day of the week at coffee shops reading her poems for small audiences. But Carol had bigger ambitions. She wanted to make her poems into a play.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She told me about it and said would you like to direct it? It was about her career as a call girl. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Joya didn’t know anything about the life of a sex worker then but she was interested. So they got started on the play. It would be a one-woman show and Carol would play a character she created called “Scarlot Harlot”\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I thought it fitted her better. That name fitted her better than Carol. Carol’s like a vanilla name and Scarlet was not vanilla. She was anything but vanilla.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol dyed her hair deep red for Scarlot. And wore red lipstick to match. Her curly hair gave her an extra inch or two of height. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She had that luscious kind of full body. She was tall, she was a fairly big woman.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She spelled Scarlot as Scar-LOT as in lots of scars. She was like an alter ego. A high femme, uninhibited version of Carol. Shameless. Bold. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And she was really flamboyant. She wore big hair, big costumes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And so sassy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I would really like to marry a rich producer. I think that’s really like the perfect kind of prostitution for me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol had an idea for the play. She would name it, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Adventures of Scarlot Harlot\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> and in it she would introduce audiences to the term “sex work” and what it meant to her.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I wrote a piece where Scarlot comes out and the first thing she’s kind of blind. She has a paper bag on her head. This paper bag…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> This paper bag symbolizes the anonymity prostitutes are forced to adopt.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And then she takes the paper bag off. And her first words are “sex workers unite!”\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sex workers unite! We won’t remain anonymous!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That was the beginning of her being a political artist.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But it wasn’t just political. Carol had fun with the play. She wrote a scene where Scarlot is confronted with the definition of prostitution. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Prostitution: One. 1. Trading sexual services for money or goods. 2. The act of selling one’s talents for an unworthy cause. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Well, that definition tarnishes my reputation!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She would ask the audience directly. Have you ever done anything for money that goes against your core values? Raise your hand if you have. And half the audience would raise their hand and she’d say, ah, that’s prostitution.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I have more money than I’ve ever had before!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People were entertained. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: …\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Color tv!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And if they were paying attention, would shift their thinking about sex work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s really hard to do political art and make it interesting. And she did that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Push button fireplace!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The play toured different small theaters across the bay area for about four years. Audiences were curious to see what the life of a sex worker was like. And Scarlot did not hold back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh [archival tape]:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> We all know that we don’t want to confine ourselves to being sexual objects, but our sexuality is a resource for us. I think it’s very important that we start making the money from our own sexuality and put it into our own causes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Really her political proclivities were beginning to come forth, you know, to be an activist. And, in the doing of this show, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Adventures of Scarlet Harlot\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">, she started to realize that she wanted to be an activist for decriminalizing prostitution.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol had aspirations of taking Scarlot off-Broadway in New York. But then, Carol writes in her book that Margo and COYOTE had warned her about a mysterious sexually transmitted disease. COYOTE started urging everyone to use condoms. Carol’s focus was turning. She writes, “The whore stigma was no longer my most pressing issue.” By 1984, the disease was more than just a rumor. The AIDS crisis was in full swing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In the beginning, there was a lot of confusion about how the virus spread. Lawmakers across the country went into a panic and started drafting laws to criminalize people who might spread the infection in hopes of stopping it. They put sex workers in that group. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was a very scary time for sex workers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">At this point, Carol is stuck at a crossroads. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I was always very worried about not being able to fulfill the needs I would have as an artist to develop my work and also be an activist. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She knew sex workers could be a valuable voice in educating the public on how to reduce the spread of the virus. So she put her play on hold and joined Citizens for Medical Justice, an early AIDS Awareness group.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Carol Leigh [archival tape]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The solution is like IV drug hygiene, it’s recovery programs, it’s needles. The solution to the crisis is education, it’s not punishing people because they have a disease.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I became very involved and this is really where I learned how to be an activist and organizer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A bill criminalizing sex workers for spreading the virus was making its way through the California legislature. It was referred to as a “mandatory testing law”. It required sex workers who were arrested to be tested for AIDS. Testing positive came with criminal charges.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Group chanting [archival tape]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“You say hey, we say no, mandatory testing has got to go!…”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Newscast: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The bill to force prostitutes to be tested for AIDS is now in the state senate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh [archival tape]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This means that a prostitute is convicted and she is antibody positive. If she even does a hand job, she can actually be convicted of a felony.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The bill had already passed the state house in a 65-8 vote and was in committee. On the day of the final vote, Carol and members of COYOTE drove to Sacramento to lobby members of the state assembly to vote against the law. Despite their efforts, the bill passed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh [archival tape]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is inhumane, we’re absolutely shocked, we’re against all mandatory testing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol Leigh was very interested in women’s body autonomy. Whether that was abortion, or the right to a clean needle, or the right to do sex work that she felt a woman should have agency. Who she wants to have sex with. who she wants to go out with, and she should be safe.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It wouldn’t be until almost 30 years later that Carol’s activism would pay off. In 2017, the legislature repealed the law and annulled all previous convictions for sex workers affected by it. The crisis and the laws had galvanized Carol. It showed her that to win their rights, sex workers needed a voice on the larger stage. She found a way to use Scarlot to reach a wider audience. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh [archival tape]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I knew that I needed to be Scarlot Harlot and go around the world and tell everyone what it’s like to be a prostitute in case they wanted to know, because people usually do want to know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So Scarlot did talk show appearances.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Well, pretty much I fake it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Announcer: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Corporate Call Girls on the next Geraldo… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[singing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Safe sex!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And she wrote music..Carol would start several organizations like the Bay Area Sex Worker Advocacy Network and the Sex Worker Film and Arts Festival here in San Francisco. Scarlot elevated the movement. And became a role model for a new generation of sex workers across the globe.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[singing] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The bedroom is the last frontier. Condoms leave a souvenir. Safe sex! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 1999, Carol, Margo, and members of COYOTE started the St. James Infirmary clinic in the Tenderloin. A free clinic offering confidential medical and legal services to sex workers in the Bay Area. The clinic was the first of its kind in the country. When I talked to Carol in January 2021 she wasn’t doing as many high profile gigs. But she did tell me something else she had learned from Margo, what “her north star” was for the movement. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The prostitutes rights agenda should be determined by what impacts the most vulnerable people in our communities, those who are impacted by the laws. \u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Those communities today include Black and Trans sex workers, as well as undocumented workers. And they’re the groups that Carol says she spent her time with in Zoom meetings, connecting with them, listening to their unique challenges and how they navigate sex work. She did this while she was battling cancer\u003c/span>\u003cb>. \u003c/b>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was diagnosed five years ago, stage four cancer. That seems really serious. You know I get scared of dying soon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But she remained active in her own way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As I get this old 70 that’s pretty old. So. I love zoom and I mean, I’m in so many sex worker groups now, and I tried to find a new role for myself, uh, or the right role, the best role now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol passed away two years after our conversation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I was pretty devastated when she died. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Annie and her closest friends surrounded her in her final moments.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> and I got to go over there. And be with her body, and put some flowers on her and be there when they rolled her out in a red velvet, a red velvet body bag. And she did a really good job planning for her death, amazingly well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And Scarlot had one more trick up her sleeve. Before she died, Carol established a trust that she didn’t tell anybody about. It included an inheritance from her mother, who supported Carol’s sex worker career from the beginning. The beneficiaries included eighty-six different sex workers and sex worker organizations in need. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> She, in her death, became a philanthropist. And she was almost embarrassed that she had money at the end\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In a letter to her beneficiaries, Carol wrote “My mother, Augusta, wanted me to use her savings to support my life and work.” Carol also left behind her poems, excerpts from her play as Scarlot, and many news articles that quoted her.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Scarlot Harlot is the goddess of compassion, and she always wears the latest in fashion.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Annie reads me a poem she wrote for Carol. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Scarlot Harlot is the gal we love the best, the finest whore in all of the West. She’s made the world a more wonderful place. All this and more. Plus she’ll sit on your face. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s so fun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She was a whore mentor and a whore mother to many sex workers. She was truly the whore with a heart of gold.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That story was reported and produced by Steven Rascón.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Decades after Carol introduced the term “sex worker” in her play, Margo St. James and others in COYOTE started using it regularly to describe the movement with lawmakers, the press, and public health officials.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The term found its way into studies from the World Health Organization and the National Institutes of Health. Today, the phrase that Carol coined has revolutionized the way the world talks about the profession.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Currently in California, soliciting sex in exchange for money may be punishable with fines and jail time.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Activists continue their efforts to decriminalize all forms of sex work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Today’s episode was produced by Amanda Font, Ana De Almeida Amaral, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Special thanks to Jen Chien, Nastia Voynovskaya, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, And the whole KQED Family.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>It has been called “the world’s oldest profession,” but it’s not one that’s often discussed openly. Of course, we’re talking about sex work. Attitudes about certain parts of the industry—from porn to strip clubs—have evolved over time, and so has the language used to discuss it. Even the term “sex work” is relatively new. This week, reporter Steven Rascón brings us the story of the woman who coined the term, and the history of the sex worker rights movement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode contains frank discussions about sexual acts, and sex work—some of which is criminalized in California. And it includes some outdated language.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Episode Transcript:\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Quick note before we get started – This episode contains frank discussions about sexual acts, and sex work, some of which is criminalized in California, and it includes some outdated language.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s a $14 billion dollar industry in the United States, but you’re unlikely to read about it in the Wall Street Journal. It’s been called the world’s oldest profession, but you can’t go to college for it. It’s been a part of our region’s story since the earliest days of the Gold Rush and yet, our history books tend to skim over some details. I’m talking about sex work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n What do you wonder about the Bay Area, its culture or people that you want KQED to investigate?\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Ask Bay Curious.\u003c/a>\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp> \u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">From the early days in San Francisco, when brothels lined Pacific Avenue to the sexual revolution of the 60s and 70s that saw a proliferation of strip clubs, porn shops, and massage parlors– Sex has practically always been for sale in this town. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Public attitudes about fully decriminalizing sex work have swung back and forth over the years,\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> in part because of the work of activists with The Sex Worker Rights Movement. At the center of that movement in the 70s was Margo St. James, a former sex worker in San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Margo St. James: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I enjoyed it very much. I enjoyed the mobility, I enjoyed the money, the freedom that it gave me to move around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">St. James was an activist who made sex work a\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> labor\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> issue. She argued that it was a job like any other – something you did to pay the bills. And these workers deserved the same safety and health care protections as anyone else. Standing just beside her in that early fight was another activist in the movement…\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’ve been a prostitute and a prostitute rights advocate for more than 10 years. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Her name is Carol Leigh but she’s probably best known by the name “Scarlot Harlot.” She took a flamboyant approach to fighting the stigma around sex work. And she spoke openly about it in a way that sometimes took people by surprise. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People always ask how did a nice girl like you ever get started in this line of work? But, you know, there’s a popular misconception. Actually, prostitutes are very very nice. That’s part of the skill that we need in order to keep our clientele.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Today on Bay Curious, we’re shining a light on Carol Leigh – \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> who is credited with transforming how sex workers talk about the profession \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and so much more. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious – the show that explores the hidden true stories of the San Francisco Bay Area. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Carol Leigh was an activist in San Francisco who fought for the legitimacy of sex worker rights. Reporter Steven Rascón brings us Carol’s story. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I met Carol over Zoom in 2021. She was 70 years old at the time, and told me about how she grew up in a socialist family in New York. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">My mother on Long Island. She was an avid feminist. We kind of became feminists in the early seventies at the same time together. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol was a graduate student at Boston University studying creative writing.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She wanted to be a poet.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She also prided herself on being a feminist, she loved how the movement called for equal opportunity for women. How it demanded they not be objectified. But for Carol it wasn’t a perfect fit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There were problems within feminism that I hadn’t really understood, In regards to sexual expression and sexual identity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">At this point Carol wasn’t doing sex work yet. But she was drawn to it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Now I had been curious about prostitution, but still as a feminist, I did feel like it was a capitulation to men. Cause you know, we would give them blow jobs. And they didn’t even have to be nice to us. I thought that sounded like a bad thing. And then I had all kinds of stereotype visions of what the experience was like, of course, it being degrading.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Eventually, she would give in to her sexual curiosities. First, in small doses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When I was, uh, mid twenties, I danced at the golden banana in Peabody, Massachusetts on amateur night. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Golden Banana. A small strip club. Carol dressed up in lingerie and did a silly burlesque number. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: It was fun and I loved it. \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The audience of mostly businessmen also loved her “lusty little comedy” bit, as she called it. Then in 1978, Carol moved to San Francisco. She wanted something different from the east coast. But the city was expensive and Carol was strapped for cash. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And I basically didn’t have much money. I always tried to live hand to mouth, I worked as a waitress. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol worked a number of odd jobs but nothing seemed to stick. So she asked about the massage parlor scene. She saw storefronts in the Tenderloin neighborhood that said “sex, massage, girls” she walked into one– a massage parlor called The Hong Kong.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sleazy massage parlor. I knew they sold sex because they weren’t selling ambiance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She says\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> that’s\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> when she gave a blow job to her first client. She wrote about the experience in her memoir: \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Unrepentant Whore: The collected works of Scarlot Harlot. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She writes “he was a guy in his mid 30’s”– cuter than most of her boyfriends. Then on her way home, she says she saw her reflection in the train car window, looked at herself and said proudly, “Now there’s a prostitute.” \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was working amongst women from all over the world. I was fascinated with how they dealt with prostitution. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol got to know her co-workers. Over time, the negative stereo-types she’d heard about sex work and those doing it, started to fade.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I met women who seemed like they were robust and rebellious and funny, and this is not what I expected. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol liked the flexibility of the job. She worked during the day and focused on her writing at night. And she wanted to meet \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">other\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> workers. And get involved with issues that mattered to her… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So the first thing I did probably within a week or two was look for Margo. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Margo as in Margo St. James – a big name in the community who started Call Off Your Old Tired Ethics or COYOTE for short – the activist group for sex workers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Margo St. James: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Well,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">my goal is, of course, is complete decriminalization of sex for human beings, just because we’re getting paid for our time doesn’t mean it has to be, uh, uh, you know, something you go to jail for.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Margo had strong relationships with the press and with local lawmakers. Carol remembers seeing Margo at her first COYOTE meeting. She says Margo used her quick wit to cut through the hypocrisy of the issues. But it was Margo’s sex positive attitude as a feminist that really inspired Carol. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">From knowing Margo and knowing her message. I saw that there is another feminism and she made feminism make sense to me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol continued going to COYOTE meetings. And at one of those meetings she met Annie Sprinkle, a sex worker living in New York at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh my God, so Caro Leigh. We became friends in the late 70s through COYOTE and Sex Worker Rights and through Margo St. James. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol and Annie bonded over a lot. They were both Jewish girls from middle class families. They loved art, film and theater. And for them sex work was a means of financial stability. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We were independent and we chose to do it. Nobody forced us to be prostitutes. We chose to do it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They both had started doing sex work in massage parlors. And they both noticed the same issues…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I worked in a massage parlor for three months. But of course the place got busted… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Massage parlors were easy targets for undercover police stings because of how public\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">they were. If a worker solicited an undercover cop at one of these parlors, they could be arrested. But Carol and Annie noticed this didn’t do anything to stop consensual sex workers. All it did was give them a criminal record. Typically someone who was arrested would go back to a different\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">parlor. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We knew that criminalizing sex work was just basically wrong. We were all aware that what we were doing was dangerous.\u003c/span> \u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Eventually Carol and Annie started working independently with their own roster of clients, as call girls. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They often exchanged notes about clients at COYOTE meetings to know who was trustworthy \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and not a cop\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 1978, the same year she joined COYOTE, Carol became a spokesperson for the group. She was an outspoken and proud sex worker. It was a vulnerable position but she thought it was important to share her experience.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was always going around and trying to present a sex worker’s point of view at different locations with COYOTE.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One day, she went to a talk led by a group of feminists about how the porn industry took advantage of women.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And There was a workshop about the “sex use” industry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The group referred to it as the sex use industry because they felt all women in the sex trade were being oppressed. Carol was familiar with this argument. She noticed the name of the workshop and spoke up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And I looked at that and I thought, wait, if we’re a feminist, we should be defining it. Not by what the men do, the men use, the services, but by what the women do, women do sex work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“Sex work” Nobody had ever referred to (it) as sex work then. But Carol made the case. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We always felt that it was work //You show up for your job, you have a schedule and you do it just like you would a manicure or something like that. It was just work. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She knew most people wouldn’t agree with her because they saw what she was doing as a moral issue not a labor one.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I understood that those who are opposed to prostitution. Were resisting, seeing it as work, So I felt like that was one difference that I wanted to highlight, so I coined the term “sex work”.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">sex work, yeah. I had not heard the term before, before I met Carol.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Joya Corey, an acting teacher in the Bay Area. Carol wasn’t just being a spokesperson for COYOTE at the time. She was also working with Joya and taking her acting classes. Carol loved making art and dabbled in all kinds – painting, guitar, writing. And she loved poetry most of all. A friend of hers said she spent almost every day of the week at coffee shops reading her poems for small audiences. But Carol had bigger ambitions. She wanted to make her poems into a play.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She told me about it and said would you like to direct it? It was about her career as a call girl. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Joya didn’t know anything about the life of a sex worker then but she was interested. So they got started on the play. It would be a one-woman show and Carol would play a character she created called “Scarlot Harlot”\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I thought it fitted her better. That name fitted her better than Carol. Carol’s like a vanilla name and Scarlet was not vanilla. She was anything but vanilla.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol dyed her hair deep red for Scarlot. And wore red lipstick to match. Her curly hair gave her an extra inch or two of height. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She had that luscious kind of full body. She was tall, she was a fairly big woman.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She spelled Scarlot as Scar-LOT as in lots of scars. She was like an alter ego. A high femme, uninhibited version of Carol. Shameless. Bold. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And she was really flamboyant. She wore big hair, big costumes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And so sassy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I would really like to marry a rich producer. I think that’s really like the perfect kind of prostitution for me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol had an idea for the play. She would name it, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Adventures of Scarlot Harlot\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> and in it she would introduce audiences to the term “sex work” and what it meant to her.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I wrote a piece where Scarlot comes out and the first thing she’s kind of blind. She has a paper bag on her head. This paper bag…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> This paper bag symbolizes the anonymity prostitutes are forced to adopt.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And then she takes the paper bag off. And her first words are “sex workers unite!”\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sex workers unite! We won’t remain anonymous!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That was the beginning of her being a political artist.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But it wasn’t just political. Carol had fun with the play. She wrote a scene where Scarlot is confronted with the definition of prostitution. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Prostitution: One. 1. Trading sexual services for money or goods. 2. The act of selling one’s talents for an unworthy cause. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Well, that definition tarnishes my reputation!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She would ask the audience directly. Have you ever done anything for money that goes against your core values? Raise your hand if you have. And half the audience would raise their hand and she’d say, ah, that’s prostitution.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I have more money than I’ve ever had before!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People were entertained. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: …\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Color tv!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And if they were paying attention, would shift their thinking about sex work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s really hard to do political art and make it interesting. And she did that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Push button fireplace!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The play toured different small theaters across the bay area for about four years. Audiences were curious to see what the life of a sex worker was like. And Scarlot did not hold back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh [archival tape]:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> We all know that we don’t want to confine ourselves to being sexual objects, but our sexuality is a resource for us. I think it’s very important that we start making the money from our own sexuality and put it into our own causes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Really her political proclivities were beginning to come forth, you know, to be an activist. And, in the doing of this show, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Adventures of Scarlet Harlot\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">, she started to realize that she wanted to be an activist for decriminalizing prostitution.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol had aspirations of taking Scarlot off-Broadway in New York. But then, Carol writes in her book that Margo and COYOTE had warned her about a mysterious sexually transmitted disease. COYOTE started urging everyone to use condoms. Carol’s focus was turning. She writes, “The whore stigma was no longer my most pressing issue.” By 1984, the disease was more than just a rumor. The AIDS crisis was in full swing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In the beginning, there was a lot of confusion about how the virus spread. Lawmakers across the country went into a panic and started drafting laws to criminalize people who might spread the infection in hopes of stopping it. They put sex workers in that group. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was a very scary time for sex workers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">At this point, Carol is stuck at a crossroads. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I was always very worried about not being able to fulfill the needs I would have as an artist to develop my work and also be an activist. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She knew sex workers could be a valuable voice in educating the public on how to reduce the spread of the virus. So she put her play on hold and joined Citizens for Medical Justice, an early AIDS Awareness group.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Carol Leigh [archival tape]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The solution is like IV drug hygiene, it’s recovery programs, it’s needles. The solution to the crisis is education, it’s not punishing people because they have a disease.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I became very involved and this is really where I learned how to be an activist and organizer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A bill criminalizing sex workers for spreading the virus was making its way through the California legislature. It was referred to as a “mandatory testing law”. It required sex workers who were arrested to be tested for AIDS. Testing positive came with criminal charges.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Group chanting [archival tape]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“You say hey, we say no, mandatory testing has got to go!…”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Newscast: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The bill to force prostitutes to be tested for AIDS is now in the state senate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh [archival tape]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This means that a prostitute is convicted and she is antibody positive. If she even does a hand job, she can actually be convicted of a felony.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The bill had already passed the state house in a 65-8 vote and was in committee. On the day of the final vote, Carol and members of COYOTE drove to Sacramento to lobby members of the state assembly to vote against the law. Despite their efforts, the bill passed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh [archival tape]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is inhumane, we’re absolutely shocked, we’re against all mandatory testing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol Leigh was very interested in women’s body autonomy. Whether that was abortion, or the right to a clean needle, or the right to do sex work that she felt a woman should have agency. Who she wants to have sex with. who she wants to go out with, and she should be safe.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It wouldn’t be until almost 30 years later that Carol’s activism would pay off. In 2017, the legislature repealed the law and annulled all previous convictions for sex workers affected by it. The crisis and the laws had galvanized Carol. It showed her that to win their rights, sex workers needed a voice on the larger stage. She found a way to use Scarlot to reach a wider audience. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh [archival tape]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I knew that I needed to be Scarlot Harlot and go around the world and tell everyone what it’s like to be a prostitute in case they wanted to know, because people usually do want to know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So Scarlot did talk show appearances.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Well, pretty much I fake it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Announcer: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Corporate Call Girls on the next Geraldo… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[singing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Safe sex!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And she wrote music..Carol would start several organizations like the Bay Area Sex Worker Advocacy Network and the Sex Worker Film and Arts Festival here in San Francisco. Scarlot elevated the movement. And became a role model for a new generation of sex workers across the globe.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[singing] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The bedroom is the last frontier. Condoms leave a souvenir. Safe sex! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 1999, Carol, Margo, and members of COYOTE started the St. James Infirmary clinic in the Tenderloin. A free clinic offering confidential medical and legal services to sex workers in the Bay Area. The clinic was the first of its kind in the country. When I talked to Carol in January 2021 she wasn’t doing as many high profile gigs. But she did tell me something else she had learned from Margo, what “her north star” was for the movement. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The prostitutes rights agenda should be determined by what impacts the most vulnerable people in our communities, those who are impacted by the laws. \u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Those communities today include Black and Trans sex workers, as well as undocumented workers. And they’re the groups that Carol says she spent her time with in Zoom meetings, connecting with them, listening to their unique challenges and how they navigate sex work. She did this while she was battling cancer\u003c/span>\u003cb>. \u003c/b>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was diagnosed five years ago, stage four cancer. That seems really serious. You know I get scared of dying soon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But she remained active in her own way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As I get this old 70 that’s pretty old. So. I love zoom and I mean, I’m in so many sex worker groups now, and I tried to find a new role for myself, uh, or the right role, the best role now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol passed away two years after our conversation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I was pretty devastated when she died. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Annie and her closest friends surrounded her in her final moments.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> and I got to go over there. And be with her body, and put some flowers on her and be there when they rolled her out in a red velvet, a red velvet body bag. And she did a really good job planning for her death, amazingly well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And Scarlot had one more trick up her sleeve. Before she died, Carol established a trust that she didn’t tell anybody about. It included an inheritance from her mother, who supported Carol’s sex worker career from the beginning. The beneficiaries included eighty-six different sex workers and sex worker organizations in need. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> She, in her death, became a philanthropist. And she was almost embarrassed that she had money at the end\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In a letter to her beneficiaries, Carol wrote “My mother, Augusta, wanted me to use her savings to support my life and work.” Carol also left behind her poems, excerpts from her play as Scarlot, and many news articles that quoted her.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Scarlot Harlot is the goddess of compassion, and she always wears the latest in fashion.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Annie reads me a poem she wrote for Carol. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Scarlot Harlot is the gal we love the best, the finest whore in all of the West. She’s made the world a more wonderful place. All this and more. Plus she’ll sit on your face. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s so fun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She was a whore mentor and a whore mother to many sex workers. She was truly the whore with a heart of gold.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That story was reported and produced by Steven Rascón.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Decades after Carol introduced the term “sex worker” in her play, Margo St. James and others in COYOTE started using it regularly to describe the movement with lawmakers, the press, and public health officials.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The term found its way into studies from the World Health Organization and the National Institutes of Health. Today, the phrase that Carol coined has revolutionized the way the world talks about the profession.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Currently in California, soliciting sex in exchange for money may be punishable with fines and jail time.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Activists continue their efforts to decriminalize all forms of sex work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Today’s episode was produced by Amanda Font, Ana De Almeida Amaral, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Special thanks to Jen Chien, Nastia Voynovskaya, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, And the whole KQED Family.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "What Does It Mean to 'Contain' a Wildfire? And More Answers to Your Questions",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>Updated 10 a.m. on January 9, 2025\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12020872/la-fires-eaton-fire-palisades-pasadena-wildfire-resources-air-quality\"> a deadly wildfire\u003c/a> breaks out in California, causing people to lose their homes, security or even their lives, it can be a truly distressing and confusing time for those of us who live here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> team asked KQED audiences their most pressing questions about wildfires. Read on for the full answers.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>‘What does it mean when a fire is \u003cem>contained\u003c/em> or \u003cem>controlled\u003c/em>?’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Once a fire starts, the goal is suppression, and the first step is containment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fire updates often include a “% contained” figure, and it can take days for fire crews to get even 10% containment on certain fires.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So what does containment mean, and why is it so hard to achieve?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Containment means that there’s some type of barrier between the area that has been burned, which we call ‘the black’ and an area that has not been burned, which we refer to as ‘the green,'” Cal Fire public information officer Jaime Williams says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The “% contained” indicates how much of the fire’s perimeter is surrounded by a barrier. So, for a fire whose perimeter is 10 miles around, if firefighters create a 5-mile-long dirt area around the fire, the fire is 50% contained.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are two types of barriers: natural and artificial. A stream or lake can act as a natural barrier, and an artificial barrier is often a dirt path dug around the fire. Firefighters will use a bulldozer to create what is called a “dozer line” or manually carve out a path using picks and shovels, which is called a “hand line.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They basically scrape the top layer of the grass off to leave bare mineral soil,” Williams says. “That way, the fire stops because there’s nothing to burn.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Or firefighters will employ a “hose lay,” where they’ll carry a synthetic hose around the fire, periodically spraying the area inside “the black.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But that doesn’t mean fires can’t spread beyond a containment line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_1916742\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2404px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/science/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2017/10/Fork-Complex_Aug-5-3.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-1916742\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/science/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2017/10/Fork-Complex_Aug-5-3.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2404\" height=\"1412\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Firefighters use picks to create a barrier between unburned vegetation and the fire in a technique called a ‘hand line.’ \u003cem>(Deleware.gov)\u003c/em>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Winds can carry embers beyond containment lines, which spark new fires nearby.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then a fire can go from 50% contained to 20% contained.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even after a fire is contained, there’s still a lot of work to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A contained fire can still be flaming inside the perimeter and firefighters must burn out untouched vegetation inside the barrier and cool down hot spots that could flare up. After the hot spots and unburned vegetation are treated and the barrier is expected to hold, a fire is considered “controlled.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EzcA3KvEsY\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>‘How do wildfires get their names?’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The first fire crew on the scene typically names the fire. Usually, they’re inspired by a nearby landmark like a road, mountain, lake or town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"http://www.fire.ca.gov/current_incidents/incidentdetails/Index/1867\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Tubbs Fire, which \u003c/a>destroyed parts of Santa Rosa in 2017, started near Tubbs Lane, just north of Calistoga. The \u003ca href=\"http://www.fire.ca.gov/current_incidents/incidentdetails/Index/1866\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Atlas Fire\u003c/a> in Napa was named for Atlas Peak, a nearby mountain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the naming process isn’t always that simple — especially with the sheer number of fires in play.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back in 2015, \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/2015/08/26/434821450/how-do-wildfires-get-their-names-the-national-park-service-explains\">firefighters in Idaho faced their 57th fire of the season\u003c/a> and couldn’t come up with a creative name for the fire. So, they named it \u003ca href=\"https://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/4523\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Not Creative Fire\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousbug]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fire names also often include the word “complex,” like the CZU Lightning Complex fires that burned in San Mateo and Santa Cruz counties in 2020. That means there are two or more individual fires located in the same general area, and it has been assigned to a unified command.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>‘How can I prepare for a wildfire?’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Wildfires may now feel grimly inevitable in Northern California. But there is still a great deal you can do personally to prepare yourself, your family and your home for wildfire and its wide-reaching effects. Find our most-read guides to wildfire preparedness below:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1965575/and-now-fire-season-heres-how-to-prepare\">How to Prepare Your Home For Wildfire\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even if your home isn’t in the direct path of flames, wildfire can still reach you through flying embers. Find out how to do a self-assessment of the trees, brush and other vegetation on and around your property, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1965575/and-now-fire-season-heres-how-to-prepare\">learn the steps to protect your home\u003c/a> from wildfire by creating defensible space and “hardening” your home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11833686/what-to-pack-in-your-emergency-bag-with-covid-19-in-mind\">What to Pack in Your Emergency Bag to Prepare For a Wildfire\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fire moves incredibly fast, and if you live in an at-risk zone, you and your family may have to leave your home immediately. Read \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11833686/what-to-pack-in-your-emergency-bag-with-covid-19-in-mind\">our guide to what should be in your emergency bag\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11619961\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11619961 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-800x530.jpg\" alt=\"Inmate firefighters clear brush from a roadside in the Berkeley Hills in September. Fire officials say fuel reduction projects like this are critical to preventing major wildfires, but funding for fuel reduction on federal land has been squeezed to pay for increasing firefighting costs.\" width=\"800\" height=\"530\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-800x530.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-1020x676.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-1180x782.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-960x636.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-240x159.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-375x248.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-520x345.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Inmate firefighters clear brush from a roadside in the Berkeley Hills in September 2017. Fire officials say fuel reduction projects like this are critical to preventing major wildfires, but funding for fuel reduction on federal land has been squeezed to pay for increasing firefighting costs. \u003ccite>(Ryan Levi/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11834901/fire-evacuation-what-actually-happens-and-how-can-you-plan\">Fire Evacuation: What Actually Happens? And How Can You Plan?\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Having to evacuate your home due to the threat of wildfire is a scary prospect — especially if you’ve never had to do it before. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11834901/fire-evacuation-what-actually-happens-and-how-can-you-plan\">Read our guide to safely and swiftly leaving your home\u003c/a>, from when you should leave to what you should bring (and what you should wear).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11840047/during-a-disaster-your-phone-might-stop-working-how-can-you-communicate\">During a Wildfire, Your Phone Might Stop Working. How Can You Communicate?\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a disaster situation, communication between you and those you care about is key. But what if the one device you rely on to communicate — your phone — isn’t working because of downed cell towers? Read these \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11840047/during-a-disaster-your-phone-might-stop-working-how-can-you-communicate\">steps you can take to maintain contact with others\u003c/a> and keep loved ones up-to-date on your safety.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11834305/masks-for-smoke-and-covid-19-what-kind-is-best\">When Air Quality’s Bad, Which Mask Should I Wear for Wildfire Smoke?\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Californians have become familiar with masks in recent years. And in a nutshell, that collection of N95 or KN95 masks you may still have in your home for COVID is the best choice for protecting yourself from wildfire smoke. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11834305/masks-for-smoke-and-covid-19-what-kind-is-best\">Read more about how these masks work\u003c/a>, and which ones just aren’t effective.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11834305/masks-for-smoke-and-covid-19-what-kind-is-best\">Why Wildfire Smoke is So Dangerous to Your Health\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even brief exposure to wildfire smoke can cause potentially serious health problems for everyone. And the most dangerous thing for your health in this smoke is the fine particulate matter: that is, the tiny pieces of soot and ash that are invisible to the naked eye. Read more about \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1926793/protecting-your-health-from-toxic-wildfire-smoke\">why protecting yourself against wildfire smoke is so crucial\u003c/a>, and how to do it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>An earlier version of this story was originally published in Oct. 2017.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>Updated 10 a.m. on January 9, 2025\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12020872/la-fires-eaton-fire-palisades-pasadena-wildfire-resources-air-quality\"> a deadly wildfire\u003c/a> breaks out in California, causing people to lose their homes, security or even their lives, it can be a truly distressing and confusing time for those of us who live here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> team asked KQED audiences their most pressing questions about wildfires. Read on for the full answers.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>‘What does it mean when a fire is \u003cem>contained\u003c/em> or \u003cem>controlled\u003c/em>?’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Once a fire starts, the goal is suppression, and the first step is containment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fire updates often include a “% contained” figure, and it can take days for fire crews to get even 10% containment on certain fires.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So what does containment mean, and why is it so hard to achieve?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Containment means that there’s some type of barrier between the area that has been burned, which we call ‘the black’ and an area that has not been burned, which we refer to as ‘the green,'” Cal Fire public information officer Jaime Williams says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The “% contained” indicates how much of the fire’s perimeter is surrounded by a barrier. So, for a fire whose perimeter is 10 miles around, if firefighters create a 5-mile-long dirt area around the fire, the fire is 50% contained.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are two types of barriers: natural and artificial. A stream or lake can act as a natural barrier, and an artificial barrier is often a dirt path dug around the fire. Firefighters will use a bulldozer to create what is called a “dozer line” or manually carve out a path using picks and shovels, which is called a “hand line.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They basically scrape the top layer of the grass off to leave bare mineral soil,” Williams says. “That way, the fire stops because there’s nothing to burn.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Or firefighters will employ a “hose lay,” where they’ll carry a synthetic hose around the fire, periodically spraying the area inside “the black.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But that doesn’t mean fires can’t spread beyond a containment line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_1916742\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2404px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/science/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2017/10/Fork-Complex_Aug-5-3.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-1916742\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/science/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2017/10/Fork-Complex_Aug-5-3.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2404\" height=\"1412\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Firefighters use picks to create a barrier between unburned vegetation and the fire in a technique called a ‘hand line.’ \u003cem>(Deleware.gov)\u003c/em>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Winds can carry embers beyond containment lines, which spark new fires nearby.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then a fire can go from 50% contained to 20% contained.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even after a fire is contained, there’s still a lot of work to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A contained fire can still be flaming inside the perimeter and firefighters must burn out untouched vegetation inside the barrier and cool down hot spots that could flare up. After the hot spots and unburned vegetation are treated and the barrier is expected to hold, a fire is considered “controlled.”\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/9EzcA3KvEsY'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/9EzcA3KvEsY'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003ch2>‘How do wildfires get their names?’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The first fire crew on the scene typically names the fire. Usually, they’re inspired by a nearby landmark like a road, mountain, lake or town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"http://www.fire.ca.gov/current_incidents/incidentdetails/Index/1867\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Tubbs Fire, which \u003c/a>destroyed parts of Santa Rosa in 2017, started near Tubbs Lane, just north of Calistoga. The \u003ca href=\"http://www.fire.ca.gov/current_incidents/incidentdetails/Index/1866\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Atlas Fire\u003c/a> in Napa was named for Atlas Peak, a nearby mountain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the naming process isn’t always that simple — especially with the sheer number of fires in play.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back in 2015, \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/2015/08/26/434821450/how-do-wildfires-get-their-names-the-national-park-service-explains\">firefighters in Idaho faced their 57th fire of the season\u003c/a> and couldn’t come up with a creative name for the fire. So, they named it \u003ca href=\"https://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/4523\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Not Creative Fire\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n What do you wonder about the Bay Area, its culture or people that you want KQED to investigate?\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Ask Bay Curious.\u003c/a>\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fire names also often include the word “complex,” like the CZU Lightning Complex fires that burned in San Mateo and Santa Cruz counties in 2020. That means there are two or more individual fires located in the same general area, and it has been assigned to a unified command.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>‘How can I prepare for a wildfire?’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Wildfires may now feel grimly inevitable in Northern California. But there is still a great deal you can do personally to prepare yourself, your family and your home for wildfire and its wide-reaching effects. Find our most-read guides to wildfire preparedness below:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1965575/and-now-fire-season-heres-how-to-prepare\">How to Prepare Your Home For Wildfire\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even if your home isn’t in the direct path of flames, wildfire can still reach you through flying embers. Find out how to do a self-assessment of the trees, brush and other vegetation on and around your property, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1965575/and-now-fire-season-heres-how-to-prepare\">learn the steps to protect your home\u003c/a> from wildfire by creating defensible space and “hardening” your home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11833686/what-to-pack-in-your-emergency-bag-with-covid-19-in-mind\">What to Pack in Your Emergency Bag to Prepare For a Wildfire\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fire moves incredibly fast, and if you live in an at-risk zone, you and your family may have to leave your home immediately. Read \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11833686/what-to-pack-in-your-emergency-bag-with-covid-19-in-mind\">our guide to what should be in your emergency bag\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11619961\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11619961 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-800x530.jpg\" alt=\"Inmate firefighters clear brush from a roadside in the Berkeley Hills in September. Fire officials say fuel reduction projects like this are critical to preventing major wildfires, but funding for fuel reduction on federal land has been squeezed to pay for increasing firefighting costs.\" width=\"800\" height=\"530\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-800x530.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-1020x676.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-1180x782.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-960x636.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-240x159.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-375x248.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-520x345.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Inmate firefighters clear brush from a roadside in the Berkeley Hills in September 2017. Fire officials say fuel reduction projects like this are critical to preventing major wildfires, but funding for fuel reduction on federal land has been squeezed to pay for increasing firefighting costs. \u003ccite>(Ryan Levi/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11834901/fire-evacuation-what-actually-happens-and-how-can-you-plan\">Fire Evacuation: What Actually Happens? And How Can You Plan?\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Having to evacuate your home due to the threat of wildfire is a scary prospect — especially if you’ve never had to do it before. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11834901/fire-evacuation-what-actually-happens-and-how-can-you-plan\">Read our guide to safely and swiftly leaving your home\u003c/a>, from when you should leave to what you should bring (and what you should wear).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11840047/during-a-disaster-your-phone-might-stop-working-how-can-you-communicate\">During a Wildfire, Your Phone Might Stop Working. How Can You Communicate?\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a disaster situation, communication between you and those you care about is key. But what if the one device you rely on to communicate — your phone — isn’t working because of downed cell towers? Read these \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11840047/during-a-disaster-your-phone-might-stop-working-how-can-you-communicate\">steps you can take to maintain contact with others\u003c/a> and keep loved ones up-to-date on your safety.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11834305/masks-for-smoke-and-covid-19-what-kind-is-best\">When Air Quality’s Bad, Which Mask Should I Wear for Wildfire Smoke?\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Californians have become familiar with masks in recent years. And in a nutshell, that collection of N95 or KN95 masks you may still have in your home for COVID is the best choice for protecting yourself from wildfire smoke. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11834305/masks-for-smoke-and-covid-19-what-kind-is-best\">Read more about how these masks work\u003c/a>, and which ones just aren’t effective.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11834305/masks-for-smoke-and-covid-19-what-kind-is-best\">Why Wildfire Smoke is So Dangerous to Your Health\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even brief exposure to wildfire smoke can cause potentially serious health problems for everyone. And the most dangerous thing for your health in this smoke is the fine particulate matter: that is, the tiny pieces of soot and ash that are invisible to the naked eye. Read more about \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1926793/protecting-your-health-from-toxic-wildfire-smoke\">why protecting yourself against wildfire smoke is so crucial\u003c/a>, and how to do it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>An earlier version of this story was originally published in Oct. 2017.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "feel-like-the-bay-used-to-be-bluer",
"title": "Feel Like the SF Bay Used to Be Bluer? You're Not Imagining It",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If the \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViG0XoKgnVs\">Heart of the Ocean\u003c/a> is a big blue diamond, the Heart of San Francisco Bay would be a big muddy emerald — or maybe more like a jade stone? Malachite? What I’m saying is, she’s green.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It hasn’t always been that way, though. When Bay Curious listener Justin Hartung was growing up in Oakland, he remembers the bay being blue. After moving to New York for college in the early ’90s, and returning to the East Bay a couple of years ago, he noticed a big difference in the hue of the harbor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I remembered it being much more blue,” he says. “So I wondered if that was a thing, or if I was just remembering things incorrectly.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Justin is not wrong. The bay is, in fact, greener now than it was in 1992. It’s the result of a chain reaction of natural processes that includes the rotation of the Earth and something called a trophic cascade.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>It ain’t easy being green\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>What makes the water appear green are lots of microscopic marine algae called \u003ca href=\"https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/phyto.html\">phytoplankton\u003c/a>. These photosynthetic organisms contain the same chlorophyll that makes plants green. Though they’re tiny, phytoplankton represent the largest biomass in the bay. They typically go through a large bloom in the spring and early summer, providing a plentiful food source for many other aquatic organisms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786309\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11786309\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074-1200x800.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074.jpg 1254w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Volvox is a polyphyletic genus of chlorophyte green algae or phytoplankton. \u003ccite>(tonaquatic/iStock)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The animals that feed on phytoplankton include filter feeders like clams and mussels. Back in the early ’90s, when Justin was still in the Bay Area, the clam and mussel populations kept the phytoplankton numbers in check. But toward the end of the decade, things started to shift. We know this only because someone has been keeping track.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Surprises are new discoveries\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Jim Cloern is a retired aquatic ecologist who spent his 43-year career with the U.S. Geological Survey studying San Francisco Bay. He was \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/insidethegoldengatepart1\">part of a team\u003c/a> that maintains a record of water quality in the bay by doing regular sampling at set locations. The data set goes back to 1968, a longevity most other U.S. waterways don’t have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>“It’s very unusual in the United States,” Cloern says, “I think this USGS program is the longest continuing program of research observation in a bay or estuary in the United States.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The program is still running, and scientists head out on sampling cruises about once a month. They started on the \u003ca href=\"https://sfbay.wr.usgs.gov/access/wqdata/overview/measure/polaris.html\">R/V Polaris,\u003c/a> and in 2016, moved operations to the \u003ca href=\"https://sfbay.wr.usgs.gov/access/wqdata/overview/wherewhen/2018cruise.html\">catamaran David H. Peterson\u003c/a>, named for the late founder of the project. There’s a new generation of team members now; some work for the USGS, others are PhD candidates doing doctoral research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786416\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/img_3667/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11786416\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_3667-e1573682049623.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The first light of day as the David H. Peterson takes off from the Port of Redwood City. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786413\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/img_3689/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11786413\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_3689-e1573681974504.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Captain Joel Fritsch is at the helm of the USGS vessel David H. Peterson. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786410\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/img_3727/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11786410\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_3727-e1573681694172.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">PhD candidate Niky Taylor is on the vessel doing doctoral research about the color of the water. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786411\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/img_3714/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11786411\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_3714-e1573681807629.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Charlie Martin collects a sample from the continuous surface water sampler in the boat’s lab. Later the phytoplankton DNA will be sequenced to see which species are present. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786412\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/img_3701/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11786412\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_3701-e1573681909518.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Erica Nejad prepares for the next sampling stop, where she will drop the CTD (pictured in the background) down into the water to take measurements. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The David H. Peterson, helmed by \u003ca href=\"https://sfbay.wr.usgs.gov/access/wqdata/overview/people/joel.html\">Capt. Joel Fritsch,\u003c/a> takes off from the Port of Redwood City in the predawn hours and heads south, under the Dumbarton Bridge, to their first sampling station. There they turn around and begin the long trek through the entire bay, all the way into the mouth of the Sacramento River.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At each location Fritsch positions the boat, then calls out to the scientists on board that they’re free to begin working. The team jumps to action. With so many sampling locations and so far to go, they have only minutes to do the work they’re here for, and the distance between the stops is sometimes as short as five or seven minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786346\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 317px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/stnmaplt.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" wp-image-11786346\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/stnmaplt.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"317\" height=\"340\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/stnmaplt.jpg 601w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/stnmaplt-160x172.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 317px) 100vw, 317px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A map of the locations where water sampling is conducted by USGS scientists. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of USGS)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The information being gathered includes the temperature, salinity, turbidity or cloudiness, and chlorophyll concentrations. Water samples are also being collected from the bottom of the bay and along the surface water. They’re stored for later research and DNA sequencing to keep track of which phytoplankton species are present.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cloern says maintaining this robust data set is vital to keeping track of the bay. “The longer we do this, the more we’re surprised,” he says, “and surprises are new discoveries.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s because of this monitoring that the USGS team noticed a shift in the phytoplankton concentrations in the late ’90s.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>One thing leads to another\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Starting around 1998–99, phytoplankton populations rose. The researchers saw blooms in the fall, which was very unusual. After consulting with colleagues who research bivalves in the bay, they discovered that clam and mussel populations had dropped significantly. These animals would normally filter out the phytoplankton, but their low numbers meant phytoplankton were proliferating and causing a greening period in the water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It took the USGS team several more years to discover the cause for the low numbers of bivalves. Eventually they found that it’s all the result of a \u003ca href=\"https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2010GL044774\">massive climate shift\u003c/a> that began around that time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The direction of the prevailing winds in the north Pacific Ocean has been observed to oscillate every 30 to 40 years. The last of these shifts occurred in the late ’90s, with the direction shifting from a south to north pattern, to a north to south pattern. Because of the Coriolis effect caused by the rotation of the Earth, the north to south winds cause the surface water along the coast to push west.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As the currents push west, they also churn up colder, more nutrient-dense water from the bottom of the ocean. This process is called coastal upwelling. Many marine animals thrive in this nutrient-rich water, setting off a trophic cascade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Flatfish, crabs and shrimp all use San Francisco Bay as a nursery for their young. When this coastal upwelling began to occur, their populations grew, leading to more juveniles in the bay. All of these organisms eat clams and mussels, which led to a drop in those populations. That’s how you end up with more phytoplankton abundance and greener water.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Can we ever go back to blue?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>This North Pacific oscillation process is a natural one and is not the result of human-caused climate change. It is likely that in the next of these large wind shifts, the pattern will reverse, leading to an increase in bivalve populations and fewer phytoplankton, thus bluer water. As long as the USGS sampling program continues, we’ll be able to track those changes over the long term.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article first published November 14, 2019 and was updated and republished on June 6, 2024.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> If you spend any time along the shores or on the water inside the Golden Gate, you may have thought the bay looks less ocean blue and more olive green these days. Justin Hartung definitely thinks so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Hartung:\u003c/strong> Yes, I noticed it driving across the bridge mostly. I live right here in Emeryville, so the water, especially right here by the bridge, is really green some days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Justin grew up in Oakland’s Montclair neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Hartung: \u003c/strong>Moved to New York around 1992 for college.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And when he moved back a couple years ago, the bay itself looked very different to him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Hartung: \u003c/strong>I remember it being much more blue, so I wondered if that was a thing or if I was just remembering things incorrectly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> This is Bay curious, the show where we answer listener questions about the San Francisco Bay area. Today on the show, we’ll find out if Justin’s observations hold water. We’ll learn what makes water appear different colors, and meet some scientists who have been studying this very question for decades. This story first aired in 2019. I’m Olivia Ellen Price. We’ll get to it right after this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Justin Hartung brought his question to Bay. Curious. You selected it in a public voting round, and now reporter Amanda Font heads out in search of answers about the colors of the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>Incremental change is hard to see when you’re looking at something every day, like how your hair looks just as long today as it did yesterday. Even though it has grown a little, you could look at an old photo of yourself to see a difference, but that won’t work. If we’re looking for subtle color changes in the bay, the only way to know for sure is through data. And lots of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Many parts of the bay are very different today than they were 43 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Luckily, someone has been collecting that data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Hartung:\u003c/strong> My name is Jim Cloern. I’m trained as a lake biologist, but I’ve spent my entire career working in San Francisco Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Jim is recently retired from the U.S. Geological Survey, but he spent more than four decades studying how the bay is influenced by human activities, and he’s seen a lot of change. I asked Jim if he could answer Justin’s question just straight up. Is the Bay really greener?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Okay. But the color of water is a pretty complicated subject.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> All right, kids, buckle up for some science.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> When I think about the color of water in California, the first thing I think about is Lake Tahoe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>You’ve probably seen those bumper stickers that say Keep Tahoe Blue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Well, what does that mean? Lake Tahoe is pretty much snow melt is pretty close to pure water. It doesn’t have much in it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> And if you held up a drop and looked at it, it would pretty much be clear. It’s light that influences how we see the color of water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> So water absorbs red and green and orange and yellow and violet, but it doesn’t absorb blue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Blue light has a much shorter wavelength. So unlike the colors of light with longer wavelengths, same red or orange, it doesn’t snake through the water molecules as easily. It bangs into that. And where they hit the molecules. The blue light waves scatter. And your eye perceives more blue light.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> And so when sunlight penetrates into a lake like Lake Tahoe, all of these other colors are absorbed by the water. But what’s left behind is the blue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> This light scattering is also the reason the sky looks blue. So if when you were a kid, your mom or dad told you the sky is blue because it reflects the ocean, and the ocean is blue because it reflects the sky? Yeah, they probably just didn’t know the answer. Or you were asking too many questions. So in the bay, when you see any other color besides blue, you’re really seeing particles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Particles and other colors. There are living particles and there are non-living particles. The non-living particles are mostly clay particles that come from soils.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> This sediment gets into the water through erosion runoff after it rains, and via the multiple rivers that flow into the bay. Currents churn up the sediment, which can make the water look brown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> The living particles are microscopic algae. Phytoplankton. The phytoplankton have the same chlorophyl that land plants have that makes them green.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> It’s these phytoplankton that give the water a greenish hue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Now the question of has there been a long term trend of greenness in the bay? It’s it sounds like a simple question, but it’s not as simple and straightforward as you would think, because we have all these sources of variability.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> The bay isn’t a static thing. It changes seasonally. Day to day, hour to hour.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> And so if there’s a long term trend, all of that variability makes it hard to detect a long term pattern of change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Here’s where all the data comes in at the USGS. Jim was also part of a project that since 1968, has been collecting water samples in the bay to measure changes over time. These sampling cruises happen about once a month. I talked with Erika Nejat on one of them. She’s a biologist who works for the USGS. This day, she was using specialized instruments to collect the measurements of several different factors, including chlorophyl content.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Nejat:\u003c/strong> So? So the CTD is taking vertical profiles of the water column at different stations. Every station we stop at is getting a. Complete vertical profile of the app space and time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> The CTD that stands for conductivity, temperature and depth is a bundle of different sensors attached together. At the end of a cable at each of the sampling locations, Erica lowers this thing slowly to the bottom of the bed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Nejat: \u003c/strong>They added this nice camera so I can see what the CTD’s at surface. So I want to start right sitting at surface, and then I go to as close to bottom as I can get without rubbing it into the bottom. So I can see my depth here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> All the way down. It’s scanning, taking measurements and reporting them back. It comes back up with a sample of deep water so they can study the phytoplankton species later. There’s also a continuous surface water sampler running inside the lab on the boat, and a special instrument that is taking pictures of individual phytoplankton in real time. They’re collecting a ton of information so that when you look at the larger data set, patterns start to emerge. Here’s Jim again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> We have measured over the last two decades a trend of increasing phytoplankton. So two things are going on that would make the bay look greener over time. Decreased sediment input, less brown, increasing phytoplankton abundance more green. So yes, there is a trend of increasing greenness in the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>There you have it. It is greener. But we’re not done yet. Because, like Ricardo Montalban in The Wrath of Khan, I want to know why. Why? Why are there more phytoplankton now than before?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Now we need to talk about biological communities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>Phytoplankton are small, but they take up a lot of space. Little on the aggregate, but massive on the whole.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> If you could weigh all of the communities that live in the bay the phytoplankton, the bacteria, the clams, them, the mussels, the crabs, the fish, the phytoplankton would weigh the most. It’s the living component that has the largest living biomass in the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> They’re right at the base of the food web. A lot of them are eaten by clams and mussels, which are filter feeders. They pull in and blow out water through a tube like structure called a siphon, and in the process, they filter out the nutritious phytoplankton. They used to do this at a pretty astounding rate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> And we calculated this is over three decades ago, that if you if you know how many clams and mussels are in the bay, how large they are, you can calculate how fast they’re filtering water. The clams and mussels that live in the bay are pumping a volume of water that’s equal to the volume of water in the bay every one or two days during the summertime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> If you’ve ever gone swimming in the bay and gotten water in your mouth, just know that it has probably been filtered through a clam. So back before 1998, those clams and mussels were keeping the phytoplankton population under control. But then things started to shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>And in 1999, we started seeing changes in the seasonal pattern of the phytoplankton. We saw bloom in the autumn. We’d never seen anything like that before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>Our question asker, Justin, was living in New York in 1999, so he didn’t see this shift until it was well underway. The extra phytoplankton blooms were a mystery to Jim and the team, until they checked in with their colleagues who study the clams. They could hardly find any in the bay, but other species numbers were growing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> They started seeing record high numbers of crabs in the bay, flatfish in the bay like, you know, Seoul and record high numbers of shrimp.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Those animals are all coastal marine organisms who live their adult lives in the ocean. But they’re young. Spend the first year or two of life in the shelter of the bay, and they all eat clams.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So Amanda, to make sure I have this starting in 1999, we have more clam eaters, fewer clams, thus more photo plankton and greener water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>Yeah, this is called a trophic cascade. A change in one part of the food web sets off a cascading effect on the other organisms in it, and the clam eater numbers are still up, which is why the water is still that rich shade of artichoke.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Why the sudden influx of other animals?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong> We have learned over the last couple of decades that there are natural cycles of the climate system that fluctuate over periods of multiple decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>There are these huge wind oscillations that happen way out in the North Pacific Ocean. Around 1999, the direction of the winds shifted in a way that caused the ocean along our coast to churn up cold water from the deep. This is called coastal upwelling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>And the cold, deep water is rich in nutrients. So this phase of strong winds, strong upwelling is a period of high biological productivity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All right. So the winds blow. It shifts the ocean climate feeds the flatfish, crabs and shrimp. Their babies drift into the bay, eat the clams. The photo plankton populations grow and the water turns green.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>That’s how it works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And this has something to do with human caused climate change, I assume.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>Actually, no. Jim made it clear that this is not something that has been caused by human actions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>These aren’t responses to global climate change. This is part of the natural oscillation of the climate system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Does that mean the water will eventually go back to looking more blue?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>So this greening period that we’ve experienced since 1998, we might reverse that pattern if we see this next climate shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>The only way we’ll really know for sure is if we keep collecting data so we can observe long term changes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>It’s really important for us to keep making measurements, keep making observations, because the longer we do this, the more we’re surprised. And surprises are new discoveries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was reporter Amanda Font. She took the story back to listener Justin Hartung to see what he thought.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>I’m glad to know that it’s not the climate. I’m glad to know it’s not my failing eyesight or my bad memory. So. Mystery definitely solved. I can also tell my dad that I am not crazy. What she told me was when I told him about this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So thanks for asking the question, Justin. If you’re digging the podcast, you will definitely dig \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/bay-curious\">our email newsletter\u003c/a>. We send it out the first Wednesday of the month, and it has answers to more listener questions, and we have time to get into on the show. Plus, behind the scenes tidbits like how we used a theremin to make sounds for this episode. Okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Ok, try now. I’m so sweaty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/bay-curious\">Subscribe at Bay curious.org\u003c/a> and you can always find a link in our show notes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Hartung:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Beale: \u003c/strong>Produced by Christopher Beale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And me Olivia Allen Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Lancour:\u003c/strong> Additional support from Paul Lancour.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jen Chien: \u003c/strong>Jen Chien.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie Sprenger:\u003c/strong> Katie Sprenger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cesar Saldaña:\u003c/strong> Cesar Saldaña.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Maha Sanad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holly Kernan:\u003c/strong> Holly Kernan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And the whole KQED family. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If the \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViG0XoKgnVs\">Heart of the Ocean\u003c/a> is a big blue diamond, the Heart of San Francisco Bay would be a big muddy emerald — or maybe more like a jade stone? Malachite? What I’m saying is, she’s green.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It hasn’t always been that way, though. When Bay Curious listener Justin Hartung was growing up in Oakland, he remembers the bay being blue. After moving to New York for college in the early ’90s, and returning to the East Bay a couple of years ago, he noticed a big difference in the hue of the harbor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I remembered it being much more blue,” he says. “So I wondered if that was a thing, or if I was just remembering things incorrectly.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Justin is not wrong. The bay is, in fact, greener now than it was in 1992. It’s the result of a chain reaction of natural processes that includes the rotation of the Earth and something called a trophic cascade.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>It ain’t easy being green\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>What makes the water appear green are lots of microscopic marine algae called \u003ca href=\"https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/phyto.html\">phytoplankton\u003c/a>. These photosynthetic organisms contain the same chlorophyll that makes plants green. Though they’re tiny, phytoplankton represent the largest biomass in the bay. They typically go through a large bloom in the spring and early summer, providing a plentiful food source for many other aquatic organisms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786309\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11786309\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074-1200x800.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074.jpg 1254w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Volvox is a polyphyletic genus of chlorophyte green algae or phytoplankton. \u003ccite>(tonaquatic/iStock)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The animals that feed on phytoplankton include filter feeders like clams and mussels. Back in the early ’90s, when Justin was still in the Bay Area, the clam and mussel populations kept the phytoplankton numbers in check. But toward the end of the decade, things started to shift. We know this only because someone has been keeping track.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Surprises are new discoveries\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Jim Cloern is a retired aquatic ecologist who spent his 43-year career with the U.S. Geological Survey studying San Francisco Bay. He was \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/insidethegoldengatepart1\">part of a team\u003c/a> that maintains a record of water quality in the bay by doing regular sampling at set locations. The data set goes back to 1968, a longevity most other U.S. waterways don’t have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>“It’s very unusual in the United States,” Cloern says, “I think this USGS program is the longest continuing program of research observation in a bay or estuary in the United States.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The program is still running, and scientists head out on sampling cruises about once a month. They started on the \u003ca href=\"https://sfbay.wr.usgs.gov/access/wqdata/overview/measure/polaris.html\">R/V Polaris,\u003c/a> and in 2016, moved operations to the \u003ca href=\"https://sfbay.wr.usgs.gov/access/wqdata/overview/wherewhen/2018cruise.html\">catamaran David H. Peterson\u003c/a>, named for the late founder of the project. There’s a new generation of team members now; some work for the USGS, others are PhD candidates doing doctoral research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786416\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/img_3667/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11786416\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_3667-e1573682049623.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The first light of day as the David H. Peterson takes off from the Port of Redwood City. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786413\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/img_3689/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11786413\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_3689-e1573681974504.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Captain Joel Fritsch is at the helm of the USGS vessel David H. Peterson. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786410\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/img_3727/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11786410\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_3727-e1573681694172.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">PhD candidate Niky Taylor is on the vessel doing doctoral research about the color of the water. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786411\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/img_3714/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11786411\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_3714-e1573681807629.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Charlie Martin collects a sample from the continuous surface water sampler in the boat’s lab. Later the phytoplankton DNA will be sequenced to see which species are present. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786412\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/img_3701/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11786412\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_3701-e1573681909518.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Erica Nejad prepares for the next sampling stop, where she will drop the CTD (pictured in the background) down into the water to take measurements. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The David H. Peterson, helmed by \u003ca href=\"https://sfbay.wr.usgs.gov/access/wqdata/overview/people/joel.html\">Capt. Joel Fritsch,\u003c/a> takes off from the Port of Redwood City in the predawn hours and heads south, under the Dumbarton Bridge, to their first sampling station. There they turn around and begin the long trek through the entire bay, all the way into the mouth of the Sacramento River.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At each location Fritsch positions the boat, then calls out to the scientists on board that they’re free to begin working. The team jumps to action. With so many sampling locations and so far to go, they have only minutes to do the work they’re here for, and the distance between the stops is sometimes as short as five or seven minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786346\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 317px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/stnmaplt.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" wp-image-11786346\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/stnmaplt.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"317\" height=\"340\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/stnmaplt.jpg 601w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/stnmaplt-160x172.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 317px) 100vw, 317px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A map of the locations where water sampling is conducted by USGS scientists. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of USGS)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The information being gathered includes the temperature, salinity, turbidity or cloudiness, and chlorophyll concentrations. Water samples are also being collected from the bottom of the bay and along the surface water. They’re stored for later research and DNA sequencing to keep track of which phytoplankton species are present.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cloern says maintaining this robust data set is vital to keeping track of the bay. “The longer we do this, the more we’re surprised,” he says, “and surprises are new discoveries.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s because of this monitoring that the USGS team noticed a shift in the phytoplankton concentrations in the late ’90s.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>One thing leads to another\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Starting around 1998–99, phytoplankton populations rose. The researchers saw blooms in the fall, which was very unusual. After consulting with colleagues who research bivalves in the bay, they discovered that clam and mussel populations had dropped significantly. These animals would normally filter out the phytoplankton, but their low numbers meant phytoplankton were proliferating and causing a greening period in the water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It took the USGS team several more years to discover the cause for the low numbers of bivalves. Eventually they found that it’s all the result of a \u003ca href=\"https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2010GL044774\">massive climate shift\u003c/a> that began around that time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The direction of the prevailing winds in the north Pacific Ocean has been observed to oscillate every 30 to 40 years. The last of these shifts occurred in the late ’90s, with the direction shifting from a south to north pattern, to a north to south pattern. Because of the Coriolis effect caused by the rotation of the Earth, the north to south winds cause the surface water along the coast to push west.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As the currents push west, they also churn up colder, more nutrient-dense water from the bottom of the ocean. This process is called coastal upwelling. Many marine animals thrive in this nutrient-rich water, setting off a trophic cascade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Flatfish, crabs and shrimp all use San Francisco Bay as a nursery for their young. When this coastal upwelling began to occur, their populations grew, leading to more juveniles in the bay. All of these organisms eat clams and mussels, which led to a drop in those populations. That’s how you end up with more phytoplankton abundance and greener water.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Can we ever go back to blue?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>This North Pacific oscillation process is a natural one and is not the result of human-caused climate change. It is likely that in the next of these large wind shifts, the pattern will reverse, leading to an increase in bivalve populations and fewer phytoplankton, thus bluer water. As long as the USGS sampling program continues, we’ll be able to track those changes over the long term.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article first published November 14, 2019 and was updated and republished on June 6, 2024.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> If you spend any time along the shores or on the water inside the Golden Gate, you may have thought the bay looks less ocean blue and more olive green these days. Justin Hartung definitely thinks so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Hartung:\u003c/strong> Yes, I noticed it driving across the bridge mostly. I live right here in Emeryville, so the water, especially right here by the bridge, is really green some days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Justin grew up in Oakland’s Montclair neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Hartung: \u003c/strong>Moved to New York around 1992 for college.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And when he moved back a couple years ago, the bay itself looked very different to him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Hartung: \u003c/strong>I remember it being much more blue, so I wondered if that was a thing or if I was just remembering things incorrectly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> This is Bay curious, the show where we answer listener questions about the San Francisco Bay area. Today on the show, we’ll find out if Justin’s observations hold water. We’ll learn what makes water appear different colors, and meet some scientists who have been studying this very question for decades. This story first aired in 2019. I’m Olivia Ellen Price. We’ll get to it right after this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Justin Hartung brought his question to Bay. Curious. You selected it in a public voting round, and now reporter Amanda Font heads out in search of answers about the colors of the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>Incremental change is hard to see when you’re looking at something every day, like how your hair looks just as long today as it did yesterday. Even though it has grown a little, you could look at an old photo of yourself to see a difference, but that won’t work. If we’re looking for subtle color changes in the bay, the only way to know for sure is through data. And lots of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Many parts of the bay are very different today than they were 43 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Luckily, someone has been collecting that data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Hartung:\u003c/strong> My name is Jim Cloern. I’m trained as a lake biologist, but I’ve spent my entire career working in San Francisco Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Jim is recently retired from the U.S. Geological Survey, but he spent more than four decades studying how the bay is influenced by human activities, and he’s seen a lot of change. I asked Jim if he could answer Justin’s question just straight up. Is the Bay really greener?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Okay. But the color of water is a pretty complicated subject.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> All right, kids, buckle up for some science.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> When I think about the color of water in California, the first thing I think about is Lake Tahoe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>You’ve probably seen those bumper stickers that say Keep Tahoe Blue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Well, what does that mean? Lake Tahoe is pretty much snow melt is pretty close to pure water. It doesn’t have much in it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> And if you held up a drop and looked at it, it would pretty much be clear. It’s light that influences how we see the color of water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> So water absorbs red and green and orange and yellow and violet, but it doesn’t absorb blue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Blue light has a much shorter wavelength. So unlike the colors of light with longer wavelengths, same red or orange, it doesn’t snake through the water molecules as easily. It bangs into that. And where they hit the molecules. The blue light waves scatter. And your eye perceives more blue light.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> And so when sunlight penetrates into a lake like Lake Tahoe, all of these other colors are absorbed by the water. But what’s left behind is the blue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> This light scattering is also the reason the sky looks blue. So if when you were a kid, your mom or dad told you the sky is blue because it reflects the ocean, and the ocean is blue because it reflects the sky? Yeah, they probably just didn’t know the answer. Or you were asking too many questions. So in the bay, when you see any other color besides blue, you’re really seeing particles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Particles and other colors. There are living particles and there are non-living particles. The non-living particles are mostly clay particles that come from soils.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> This sediment gets into the water through erosion runoff after it rains, and via the multiple rivers that flow into the bay. Currents churn up the sediment, which can make the water look brown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> The living particles are microscopic algae. Phytoplankton. The phytoplankton have the same chlorophyl that land plants have that makes them green.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> It’s these phytoplankton that give the water a greenish hue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Now the question of has there been a long term trend of greenness in the bay? It’s it sounds like a simple question, but it’s not as simple and straightforward as you would think, because we have all these sources of variability.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> The bay isn’t a static thing. It changes seasonally. Day to day, hour to hour.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> And so if there’s a long term trend, all of that variability makes it hard to detect a long term pattern of change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Here’s where all the data comes in at the USGS. Jim was also part of a project that since 1968, has been collecting water samples in the bay to measure changes over time. These sampling cruises happen about once a month. I talked with Erika Nejat on one of them. She’s a biologist who works for the USGS. This day, she was using specialized instruments to collect the measurements of several different factors, including chlorophyl content.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Nejat:\u003c/strong> So? So the CTD is taking vertical profiles of the water column at different stations. Every station we stop at is getting a. Complete vertical profile of the app space and time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> The CTD that stands for conductivity, temperature and depth is a bundle of different sensors attached together. At the end of a cable at each of the sampling locations, Erica lowers this thing slowly to the bottom of the bed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Nejat: \u003c/strong>They added this nice camera so I can see what the CTD’s at surface. So I want to start right sitting at surface, and then I go to as close to bottom as I can get without rubbing it into the bottom. So I can see my depth here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> All the way down. It’s scanning, taking measurements and reporting them back. It comes back up with a sample of deep water so they can study the phytoplankton species later. There’s also a continuous surface water sampler running inside the lab on the boat, and a special instrument that is taking pictures of individual phytoplankton in real time. They’re collecting a ton of information so that when you look at the larger data set, patterns start to emerge. Here’s Jim again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> We have measured over the last two decades a trend of increasing phytoplankton. So two things are going on that would make the bay look greener over time. Decreased sediment input, less brown, increasing phytoplankton abundance more green. So yes, there is a trend of increasing greenness in the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>There you have it. It is greener. But we’re not done yet. Because, like Ricardo Montalban in The Wrath of Khan, I want to know why. Why? Why are there more phytoplankton now than before?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Now we need to talk about biological communities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>Phytoplankton are small, but they take up a lot of space. Little on the aggregate, but massive on the whole.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> If you could weigh all of the communities that live in the bay the phytoplankton, the bacteria, the clams, them, the mussels, the crabs, the fish, the phytoplankton would weigh the most. It’s the living component that has the largest living biomass in the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> They’re right at the base of the food web. A lot of them are eaten by clams and mussels, which are filter feeders. They pull in and blow out water through a tube like structure called a siphon, and in the process, they filter out the nutritious phytoplankton. They used to do this at a pretty astounding rate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> And we calculated this is over three decades ago, that if you if you know how many clams and mussels are in the bay, how large they are, you can calculate how fast they’re filtering water. The clams and mussels that live in the bay are pumping a volume of water that’s equal to the volume of water in the bay every one or two days during the summertime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> If you’ve ever gone swimming in the bay and gotten water in your mouth, just know that it has probably been filtered through a clam. So back before 1998, those clams and mussels were keeping the phytoplankton population under control. But then things started to shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>And in 1999, we started seeing changes in the seasonal pattern of the phytoplankton. We saw bloom in the autumn. We’d never seen anything like that before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>Our question asker, Justin, was living in New York in 1999, so he didn’t see this shift until it was well underway. The extra phytoplankton blooms were a mystery to Jim and the team, until they checked in with their colleagues who study the clams. They could hardly find any in the bay, but other species numbers were growing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> They started seeing record high numbers of crabs in the bay, flatfish in the bay like, you know, Seoul and record high numbers of shrimp.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Those animals are all coastal marine organisms who live their adult lives in the ocean. But they’re young. Spend the first year or two of life in the shelter of the bay, and they all eat clams.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So Amanda, to make sure I have this starting in 1999, we have more clam eaters, fewer clams, thus more photo plankton and greener water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>Yeah, this is called a trophic cascade. A change in one part of the food web sets off a cascading effect on the other organisms in it, and the clam eater numbers are still up, which is why the water is still that rich shade of artichoke.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Why the sudden influx of other animals?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong> We have learned over the last couple of decades that there are natural cycles of the climate system that fluctuate over periods of multiple decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>There are these huge wind oscillations that happen way out in the North Pacific Ocean. Around 1999, the direction of the winds shifted in a way that caused the ocean along our coast to churn up cold water from the deep. This is called coastal upwelling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>And the cold, deep water is rich in nutrients. So this phase of strong winds, strong upwelling is a period of high biological productivity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All right. So the winds blow. It shifts the ocean climate feeds the flatfish, crabs and shrimp. Their babies drift into the bay, eat the clams. The photo plankton populations grow and the water turns green.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>That’s how it works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And this has something to do with human caused climate change, I assume.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>Actually, no. Jim made it clear that this is not something that has been caused by human actions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>These aren’t responses to global climate change. This is part of the natural oscillation of the climate system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Does that mean the water will eventually go back to looking more blue?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>So this greening period that we’ve experienced since 1998, we might reverse that pattern if we see this next climate shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>The only way we’ll really know for sure is if we keep collecting data so we can observe long term changes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>It’s really important for us to keep making measurements, keep making observations, because the longer we do this, the more we’re surprised. And surprises are new discoveries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was reporter Amanda Font. She took the story back to listener Justin Hartung to see what he thought.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>I’m glad to know that it’s not the climate. I’m glad to know it’s not my failing eyesight or my bad memory. So. Mystery definitely solved. I can also tell my dad that I am not crazy. What she told me was when I told him about this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So thanks for asking the question, Justin. If you’re digging the podcast, you will definitely dig \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/bay-curious\">our email newsletter\u003c/a>. We send it out the first Wednesday of the month, and it has answers to more listener questions, and we have time to get into on the show. Plus, behind the scenes tidbits like how we used a theremin to make sounds for this episode. Okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Ok, try now. I’m so sweaty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/bay-curious\">Subscribe at Bay curious.org\u003c/a> and you can always find a link in our show notes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Hartung:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Beale: \u003c/strong>Produced by Christopher Beale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And me Olivia Allen Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Lancour:\u003c/strong> Additional support from Paul Lancour.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jen Chien: \u003c/strong>Jen Chien.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie Sprenger:\u003c/strong> Katie Sprenger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cesar Saldaña:\u003c/strong> Cesar Saldaña.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Maha Sanad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holly Kernan:\u003c/strong> Holly Kernan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And the whole KQED family. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Tunnels Under San Francisco? Inside the Dark, Dangerous World of the Sewers",
"headTitle": "Tunnels Under San Francisco? Inside the Dark, Dangerous World of the Sewers | KQED",
"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a>, we’ve received a \u003cem>lot\u003c/em> of questions about tunnels under San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Listeners have told us they’ve heard stories of secret passageways running under the city. They’ve asked us, what is the truth about them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first thing I should tell you is: They’re absolutely real.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>\u003cstrong>What Lies Beneath?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>The myth of the underground — a silent world hidden under our feet — is an endlessly alluring one. There are, after all, very \u003cem>real\u003c/em> labyrinths under major world cities. Like the infamous \u003ca href=\"http://catacombes.paris.fr/en\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">catacombs of Paris\u003c/a>, lined with the bones of the city’s dead, or the \u003ca href=\"https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/odessa-catacombs\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">terrifying catacombs under Odesa\u003c/a> in Ukraine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some people get so obsessed with the idea of tunnels that they search for underground adventures themselves. They call themselves “urban explorers.” If you hit Google looking for information on San Francisco’s particular underground, there’s a name that comes up again and again — an explorer named \u003ca href=\"http://www.sierrahartman.com/sf-underground\">Sierra Hartman\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782642\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 700px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782642 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/Sierra-1.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"700\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/Sierra-1.png 700w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/Sierra-1-160x103.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Somewhere under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sierra Hartman)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A photographer and writer, Hartman’s haunting photographs of shadowy spaces under S.F. are, for many people, their first clue that this particular world of tunnels really does exist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think it’s just ingrained in human nature, you know?” Hartman says of the drive to venture below. “You wonder what’s down there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hartman lives in Tacoma, Washington, but grew up in Southern California. It was roaming around on his bike as a kid with friends, Goonies-style, that he discovered the dark urban waterways in his hometown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You take a 12-year-old kid and show them an entrance of a tunnel? Like, they’re \u003cem>going\u003c/em> to go in,” Hartman says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782644\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 700px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782644 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_v96zDttNjTR0Bhsu_.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"700\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_v96zDttNjTR0Bhsu_.png 700w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_v96zDttNjTR0Bhsu_-160x103.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Somewhere under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sierra Hartman)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Arriving in San Francisco later in life, he began exploring the city’s streets at night with his camera. One of those nights, a chance encounter with a manhole left open led him beneath the San Francisco for the first time — and sparked an adult passion for urban exploration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Across the sleeping city, Hartman found entrances to dark, dripping tunnels, sloshing wet, that stretched for miles into the blackness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So much of it is just overgrown,” he says of those doorways. “You don’t \u003cem>realize\u003c/em> that there is a whole underground part of this thing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like many urban explorers, Hartman says, he enjoyed the thrill of the hunt almost as much as the actual discovery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Like solving a puzzle,” he says. “It’s as much about solving the mystery and finding the thing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782645\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 700px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782645 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_bKc1L_JmfVh4mTQZ_.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"700\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_bKc1L_JmfVh4mTQZ_.png 700w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_bKc1L_JmfVh4mTQZ_-160x103.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Somewhere under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sierra Hartman)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>He used a mixture of publicly available records and maps, Google Earth, and whispers from fellow urban explorers, who are notoriously secretive about their finds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At least some of that is due to the risks of their enterprise. Bodily dangers aside, urban exploration represents “at best a gray area of legality in some places, and outright trespassing in other places,” as Hartman puts it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This is the part where I tell you that this underground network Hartman risked bodily harm to venture into is no mysterious labyrinth built by shadowy figures.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s San Francisco’s huge sewer network.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>\u003cstrong>A Complex World You Don’t See\u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>“I crawl through a lot of sewer pipes. That’s basically my job,” says Megan Abadie, an assistant engineer for the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission wastewater enterprise. Her job sees her enter those same tunnels — legally — to make sure that this giant, intricate system filled with your waste keeps working the way it’s meant to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782900\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782900 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-1200x800.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in her office at San Francisco’s Public Utilities Commission. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>There are a lot of misconceptions about the sewers, Abadie says. For one, what we surface-dwellers call “tunnels” aren’t truly tunnels — a term that specifically means a long run of pipe bored out of the earth with only a few manholes attached. When we talk of the “tunnels under San Francisco,” we’re usually talking, in fact, about sewer mains.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco is 49 square miles but has over 1,000 miles of sewer mains under every block. What makes our system unique in California is the fact that it’s a combined system. Instead of stormwater and sewage water being separated into different pipes, as they are elsewhere in the state, in San Francisco, it all flows into the same set of pipes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782624\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782624 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-800x450.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut.jpg 1885w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie, deep in the San Francisco sewers. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>This is a legacy of the city’s relative age, with the foundations of our modern-day sewers being laid during the Gold Rush — in what Abadie describes as “a very ad hoc system … people would build pipes to just connect to the nearest creek.” There are still some pipes under your feet that date from the 1840s, she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just like in New York — another old, dense city — it was too hard to rip up San Francisco’s sewer network to replace the old system with secondary pipes. So we’ve repaired and adapted our old system, which is why this city still has those big, wide sewer mains … that people can’t seem to stay out of.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>A Lethal Labyrinth\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>“There’s a lot of things that can happen in the sewer that can actually kill you pretty easily,” Abadie reminds me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For one thing, there’s the risk of drowning down there. Because of San Francisco’s steep topography, Abadie and her colleagues never enter the sewers if there’s so much as a drizzle of rain anywhere in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782637\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782637 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in the sewers of San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“If you’re in a large pipe at the bottom of a hill, it doesn’t take much for a big slug of water to hit you, even if it’s not raining very much where you are,” she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, there’s the danger of toxic gas, namely hydrogen sulfide, produced when organic material (waste matter, seaweed) starts to decompose. At low levels, it has a distinctive smell of rotten eggs. At higher levels, it affects a person’s sense of smell entirely and can knock you out — and kill you — within minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782625\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782625 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in the San Francisco sewers. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>On top of \u003cem>that\u003c/em>, there’s the threat of simply getting lost, injured or both in the sewers. Abadie and her fellow inspectors are equipped with accurate maps and supported by a large chain of people both below and above ground — weather spotters, medics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I go into the sewer system, I know exactly where I am. … You go into a pipe that you see sticking out somewhere? Open up a manhole? You’re not going to know where you are,” Abadie says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782638\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782638 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Stooping low in the sewers. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>After hearing this, I had \u003cem>zero\u003c/em> intention of exploring the sewers alone for this story. But I couldn’t resist asking Megan to take me down to see an underground place that Sierra Hartman had told me about.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>\u003cstrong>A Trip into the Underworld\u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>It looked more like a cave than a sewer, Hartman says. And I knew urban explorers like him would spend months, even years, trying to track down its precise location — because of how striking it looked and how it led right out to the Pacific Ocean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Abadie knew exactly the place Hartman meant and asked me to wait until the timing was just right when it’d be safe enough at low tide, with no chance of rain. That timing turned out to be very early in the morning on the Fourth of July, the lowest tide of the year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782626\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782626 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Reporter Carly Severn being lowered into the sewer system. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As Abadie’s crew secured a harness and waist-high waders to my body, she explained why we’d be taking gas meters and oxygen masks down there. Even though the fast flow of the system we’d be entering would lower the hydrogen sulfide risk, “you can go into a sewer that’s been fine every single time, and one year something can be different,” she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With safety equipment secured, we were lowered one by one into the tunnel by rope, down a tall, rusting ladder until we finally reached the bottom of the sewer with a splash. The water reached our knees. Ahead, through the humid, misty air, was a long, high tunnel that seemed to stretch for miles in front of us. Down there in the darkness was that “sewer cave” — and the ocean. During the rainy season, Abadie reminded me that the tunnel we stood in would have been full of water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782631\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1851px\">\u003ca href=\"manho\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782631 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1851\" height=\"1056\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut.jpg 1851w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-160x91.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-800x456.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-1020x582.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-1200x685.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1851px) 100vw, 1851px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Reporter Carly Severn is lowered down through a manhole. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Surprisingly, the sewers don’t smell how you might fear they would: the odor is agricultural, like a farmyard smell. Yet no matter how pleasant this surprise, wading through high sewer water in such humidity quickly becomes exhausting, like walking through deep snow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As we walked through the tunnel, our voices echoing off the walls, Abadie told me about her first entries into the sewers after she started working for the city in 2011. The underground network, she says, reminded her of the vast Mines of Moria in “The Lord of the Rings.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I thought it was really cool. I even thought it was cool seeing a little turd float by! I mean, that’s not something everyone gets to see,” she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782632\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1885px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782632 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1885\" height=\"1060\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut.jpg 1885w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1885px) 100vw, 1885px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Exploring deep under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As we got closer to what \u003cem>I’d\u003c/em> come to see — that cave — the crashing of the Pacific Ocean suddenly grew louder. Looming in front of us, there it was: What looked like the tall, wide mouth of a cave, deep under San Francisco, carved from dark, jutting rock and yawning into more blackness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This,” Abadie says with some pride, “is definitely the most scenic and beautiful combined sewer overflow in San Francisco.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782633\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"Sruti%20Mamidanna/KQED\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782633 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Carly Severn and Megan Abadie in the mouth of the ‘sewer cave.’\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Passing through the cave, we had to stoop to get through the last part of our journey, our helmets scraping the ceiling. We were now inside the discharge pipe: the way the system can safely get water out during heavy storms, while providing primary-level treatment, when the usual storage areas under the city are full to the brim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the end of the pipe, the waves we could hear crashing close suddenly became visible, as I found myself looking out at the ocean, framed by rock. After hours underground, it was now daylight out there. That entrance onto the water is, unthinkably, how some explorers try to get \u003cem>in\u003c/em> here via a tiny strip of beach that opens up only for a brief period of time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782636\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1846px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782636 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1846\" height=\"1038\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut.jpg 1846w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1846px) 100vw, 1846px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A glimpse of the Pacific Ocean. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As the tide started to rise, the waves started to crash further and further into the pipe toward us, and we knew it was time to go. As we moved back through the tunnel, the difference in smell was palpable: The people of San Francisco were waking up and were starting to use their bathrooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After being attached to the rope and hauled out of the darkness and up through the manhole again, I was suddenly out of the city’s underworld. Exhausted, after hours of trudging through sewer water, the call of the underground was only more apparent to me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So what could people do, I asked Abadie, if after hearing the truth about the darkness and danger down there, they \u003cem>still\u003c/em> couldn’t resist the lure of subterranean exploration?\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782640\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1891px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782640 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1891\" height=\"1064\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut.jpg 1891w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1891px) 100vw, 1891px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in the discharge pipe leading out to the ocean. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna )\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We have a lot of people retiring here. You can come work for us!” she says. “We will get you into sewers. It’ll be awesome. Your passion can actually get you \u003cem>paid\u003c/em> to explore sewers.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Or become a public radio reporter,” she added. “Those are two ways that you can get into sewers and not die.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story first published on Oct. 31, 2019 and was updated and republished on May 2, 2024. Special thanks to Evan Thompson with his assistance for this story.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Sounds of birds, dog barking]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Around us all the time is the city that we know. The same stretch of sidewalk we walk on every day, the bus stop on the corner, our favorite restaurants, our neighborhood parks. If you live anywhere long enough, you can think you’ve seen it all. But what if beneath the streets there was another world? A place that’s so close to you all the time, but you wouldn’t even recognize it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Bay Curious theme music starts] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hey everyone, Olivia Allen-Price here. Over the years we’ve been running Bay Curious, we’ve received a bunch of questions about tunnels. Listeners who say they’ve heard stories of secret passageways running under San Francisco. \u003c/span>We aired an episode on the topic in 2019, but your questions have kept on coming … So today we’re going to revisit it, and answer the question do these tunnels exist?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor Message\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Those stories about hidden underground tunnel systems in the Bay Area. They’re true!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Underground tunnels echo]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: The structure is absolutely amazing. It’s also quite scary. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: That voice you just heard was recorded deep under the streets of San Francisco, and it belongs to reporter Carly Severn. We sent her to investigate the secret world under the city,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Mystical music] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> A lot of you will have heard the legends about the very real labyrinths under major world cities, like the famous catacombs of Paris, that are lined with the bones of the city’s dead. And if you hit Google looking for information on San Francisco’s underground like I did, there’s a name that comes up again and again an urban explorer called Sierra Hardman. And his incredible, haunting photographs of shadowy spaces under the city are, for many people, their first clue that this world of tunnels really exists. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think it’s just ingrained in human nature. You know, you wonder what’s down there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Sierra told me he’s been obsessed with exploring the underground since he was a kid, back when he was growing up in Southern California, riding around on his bike, Goonies style, and peering into dark urban waterways. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I mean, you take a 12 year old kid and you show them an entrance of a tunnel like they’re gonna to go in. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When he was older, he moved to San Francisco and started roaming the streets with his camera while the rest of the city was sleeping, just looking for secret entry ways underground, guided by maps and city plans and whispers from other urban explorers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So much of it is just overgrown. Yeah, you drove past it so many times you don’t really recognize it as something really special. You don’t realize that there’s a whole, like, underground part of this thing.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He found doorways and manholes that led him down into dark, dripping tunnels stretching into blackness beyond the reach of his flashlight. But this network of underground spaces, this is no secret labyrinth built by shadowy figures. It’s San Francisco’s huge sewer network, and there’s one person in this city that knows the sewers inside out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: So my name’s Megan Abadie. I’m an assistant engineer for the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission Wastewater Enterprise. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Megan’s job is making sure that system – yep – pipes filled with your waste works.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I crawl through a lot of sewer pipes. That’s basically my job. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Wastewater management, what we call sewers, can sound kind of gross, but how this stuff all works is pretty impressive. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco is about a seven by seven, you know, 49-50 mile square city. And we actually have over 1000 miles of sewer main. There’s sewers under every block. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The thing about the city’s sewers is many of these pipes are big. Big enough for curious risk takers to walk through rather than crawl, which isn’t possible in many other cities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco has a very different type of sewer system than pretty much any other city in California. It has what’s called a combined system. That means that the stormwater and the sewage water leak from your toilet and your sinks, it all goes into the same set of pipes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We have an old city, and that one pipe system was how folks did it back then. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco’s sewer network, began to be built during the Gold Rush era. So there are some pipes that date from the 1840s. It was a very ad hoc system at that time that people would build pipes to just connect to the nearest creek. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Just like in New York, another old dense city. It was too hard to rip up San Francisco’s sewer network to add secondary pipes. So we’ve repaired and adapted our old system, creating a maze of those big wide sewer mains. But listen, if you’re hearing this and are feeling the lure of exploring the world on the San Francisco yourself, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">don’t\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. Seriously.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s a lot of things that can happen in the sewer that can actually kill you pretty easily. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There was no way I was going to follow in the footsteps of an urban explorer like Sierra Hartmann and go roaming under San Francisco alone. But there was this one particular place that Sierra told me about that I knew I really wanted to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Dramatic music] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A passageway somewhere beneath San Francisco that’s famous for its otherworldly look. Sierra had to pour over old sewer maps to find it. I was told it looks more like a cave than a sewer. And it leads right out onto the Pacific Ocean. Megan knew exactly the place I meant. And when conditions were just right, she said she’d take me down there herself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’ll be over 200 feet below the ground, actually. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Crew conversation in the background]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And so that’s how I end up with Megan and her crew, at 2 AM on the 4th of July in a harness, in a waist-high waders, getting recording equipment taped to my body, about to be lowered down into an open manhole. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">…Does it feel..? Oh, look like it’s a good height, you don’t need to adjust the height.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our underground journey will lead us through a very watery tunnel, through that sewer cave, and into what they call a discharge pipe. Now, that pipe is the way the system can safely get water out during really heavy storms, when the usual storage areas under the city are full to the brim. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah, so when we get out into the discharge pipe, you’re going to hear the ocean, just boring through this final stretch of tunnel. And you can actually, like, feel it. You can’t just hear it – you can feel it in your gut. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I can’t wait!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As one of her crew is strapping a bright yellow gas meter onto my suit, Megan tells me more about the very real dangers of being in the sewers. The big one is a lethal gas called hydrogen sulfide that can kill you before you know it’s there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> You can smell it at low levels, it smells like rotten eggs. At higher levels that actually kills the nerves, it kills your smell nerves, it kills your old factory nerves. So at higher levels, at levels high enough to be dangerous, you won’t smell it at all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And because of the gas risk, I’m getting an air pack too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That’s exactly like the, oxygen masks that you have on an airplane. You just put it over your face and breathe through it, and it’ll give you oxygen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Okay, well, fingers crossed we don’t end up using these. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You won’t, you won’t. But it’s good to know how to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After all this, I’m finally lowered down many feet into the tunnel by rope down a tall, rusting ladder until we splash into knee deep water and into the sewer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Sounds of water splashes]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And I’m staring down into a long, gaping tunnel that seems to stretch out for miles. Oh my goodness. This is exactly like I thought it would be, from watching horror movies. The air is really damp, exactly like they said it would be. You can kind of see this fine mist in the air, and I can hear my voice echoing in a really crazy way. There’s water flow under my feet… And it’s like walking through stream with a really dirty stream. Speaker 2: [00:08:45] We start to make our way toward the sewer cave that few people have seen. Megan tells me that had it been raining above ground, this tunnel would have been a lethal river of freezing water right up to the roof. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, this would totally be fun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Oh, yeah. You wouldn’t – we don’t go into the system when there’s even a drizzle.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you ever wondered what it sounds like to wade through raw sewage, it’s pretty much like this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Carly wading through water]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Weirdly, it does not smell that bad in here. Well, at least not as bad as I thought. Kind of smells like if you spent time on a farm. Kind of smells like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When I started working in for the city in 2011 and doing sewer entry.. So that was after the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Lord of the Rings\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> movies came out, and it reminded me of the mines of Moria with all the pillars, except it was full of water. Yeah. I thought it was really cool. I even thought it was cool seeing little turds float by. I mean, that’s not something everyone gets to see. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As we get closer to what I’d come to see. That cave, the crashing of the ocean out on the outside world suddenly gets louder. And then looming in front of us, right there in the tunnel. There it is. What looks like the tall, wide mouth of a cave, deep under San Francisco, dark, jutting rock yawning into more blackness. The entrance to the pipe that leads out to the water.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s amazing. It looks like it looks like a Middle Earth. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah. Isn’t it beautiful? This is, this is definitely the most scenic and beautiful combined sewer overflow in San Francisco. It’s the only one that’s carved into raw stone like this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We walk into the cave through a stretch of that discharge pipe, and there’s the final surprise. We can see the Pacific Ocean just feet away, framed by the rock. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Water flowing] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After hours underground, we’re now staring at broad daylight. This entrance, unthinkably, is how some explorers try to get in here from the outside via a tiny strip of beach that only opens up for a brief period of time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It’s a bad idea to go into the sewer anywhere, but it’s a really bad idea to go into the sewer via an access point that is only going to be passable for like, an hour or two.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Crouching there in that pipe, I see how quickly the waves are starting to rush towards us, a sign that it was time to hurry out of there and back above ground.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay, it is definitely smelling a little different on our return journey, and I think that’s because people have woken up by now and let’s just say they are using their bathrooms. And after being reattached the rope and having my tired body hauled out of the darkness and up through the manhole again like that, I am out of the underworld. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Carly laughing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And out into daylight on the 4th of July. Cool. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So there you have it. San Francisco’s secret underground is pretty incredible, even if our legendary tunnels are actually some not so secret sewers after all. Except… maybe there’s something Sierra told me that I couldn’t get out of my mind. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Mystical music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A lot of these sewers are maps. Because in the 1906 earthquake and the entire city, or the entire eastern half of the city anyway, just burned to the ground. They lost tons of records of infrastructure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And you know what? According to the city, he’s right. So there is still a touch of mystery under San Francisco, after all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Music fades]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That was KQED’s Carly Seven. This is a story that you really need to see, not just listen to. Video producer Sruti Mamidanna made a video from Carly’s trip and it is very cool. You can find it at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">baycurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> – we’ll drop a link in the show notes too. It’s a new month, which means a new voting round is up at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">baycurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>.\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Let’s hear the choices. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 1 : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">How clean is the Bay Area water? Is it safe to swim? Are some areas better than others? What would it take to get it fully clean or safe? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Whatever happened to the Bay area’s camels? I went to high school in Benicia and heard things about the camel barns. There are no longer camels in the barns. Where did they go, and why were they there to begin with?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What’s the deal with the Devil’s Slide? And how did I get that name? Had to \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">baycurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> to cast your vote, for which question we should answer next.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Bay Curious is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Bill, Tamuna Chkareuli, and me, Olivia Allen-Price with support from Kimberly Low, Molly Wu, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and KQED family. Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member supported KQED. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll see you next week. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a>, we’ve received a \u003cem>lot\u003c/em> of questions about tunnels under San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Listeners have told us they’ve heard stories of secret passageways running under the city. They’ve asked us, what is the truth about them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first thing I should tell you is: They’re absolutely real.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>\u003cstrong>What Lies Beneath?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>The myth of the underground — a silent world hidden under our feet — is an endlessly alluring one. There are, after all, very \u003cem>real\u003c/em> labyrinths under major world cities. Like the infamous \u003ca href=\"http://catacombes.paris.fr/en\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">catacombs of Paris\u003c/a>, lined with the bones of the city’s dead, or the \u003ca href=\"https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/odessa-catacombs\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">terrifying catacombs under Odesa\u003c/a> in Ukraine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some people get so obsessed with the idea of tunnels that they search for underground adventures themselves. They call themselves “urban explorers.” If you hit Google looking for information on San Francisco’s particular underground, there’s a name that comes up again and again — an explorer named \u003ca href=\"http://www.sierrahartman.com/sf-underground\">Sierra Hartman\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782642\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 700px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782642 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/Sierra-1.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"700\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/Sierra-1.png 700w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/Sierra-1-160x103.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Somewhere under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sierra Hartman)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A photographer and writer, Hartman’s haunting photographs of shadowy spaces under S.F. are, for many people, their first clue that this particular world of tunnels really does exist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think it’s just ingrained in human nature, you know?” Hartman says of the drive to venture below. “You wonder what’s down there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hartman lives in Tacoma, Washington, but grew up in Southern California. It was roaming around on his bike as a kid with friends, Goonies-style, that he discovered the dark urban waterways in his hometown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You take a 12-year-old kid and show them an entrance of a tunnel? Like, they’re \u003cem>going\u003c/em> to go in,” Hartman says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782644\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 700px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782644 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_v96zDttNjTR0Bhsu_.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"700\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_v96zDttNjTR0Bhsu_.png 700w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_v96zDttNjTR0Bhsu_-160x103.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Somewhere under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sierra Hartman)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Arriving in San Francisco later in life, he began exploring the city’s streets at night with his camera. One of those nights, a chance encounter with a manhole left open led him beneath the San Francisco for the first time — and sparked an adult passion for urban exploration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Across the sleeping city, Hartman found entrances to dark, dripping tunnels, sloshing wet, that stretched for miles into the blackness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So much of it is just overgrown,” he says of those doorways. “You don’t \u003cem>realize\u003c/em> that there is a whole underground part of this thing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like many urban explorers, Hartman says, he enjoyed the thrill of the hunt almost as much as the actual discovery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Like solving a puzzle,” he says. “It’s as much about solving the mystery and finding the thing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782645\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 700px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782645 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_bKc1L_JmfVh4mTQZ_.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"700\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_bKc1L_JmfVh4mTQZ_.png 700w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_bKc1L_JmfVh4mTQZ_-160x103.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Somewhere under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sierra Hartman)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>He used a mixture of publicly available records and maps, Google Earth, and whispers from fellow urban explorers, who are notoriously secretive about their finds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At least some of that is due to the risks of their enterprise. Bodily dangers aside, urban exploration represents “at best a gray area of legality in some places, and outright trespassing in other places,” as Hartman puts it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This is the part where I tell you that this underground network Hartman risked bodily harm to venture into is no mysterious labyrinth built by shadowy figures.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s San Francisco’s huge sewer network.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>\u003cstrong>A Complex World You Don’t See\u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>“I crawl through a lot of sewer pipes. That’s basically my job,” says Megan Abadie, an assistant engineer for the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission wastewater enterprise. Her job sees her enter those same tunnels — legally — to make sure that this giant, intricate system filled with your waste keeps working the way it’s meant to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782900\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782900 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-1200x800.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in her office at San Francisco’s Public Utilities Commission. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>There are a lot of misconceptions about the sewers, Abadie says. For one, what we surface-dwellers call “tunnels” aren’t truly tunnels — a term that specifically means a long run of pipe bored out of the earth with only a few manholes attached. When we talk of the “tunnels under San Francisco,” we’re usually talking, in fact, about sewer mains.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco is 49 square miles but has over 1,000 miles of sewer mains under every block. What makes our system unique in California is the fact that it’s a combined system. Instead of stormwater and sewage water being separated into different pipes, as they are elsewhere in the state, in San Francisco, it all flows into the same set of pipes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782624\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782624 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-800x450.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut.jpg 1885w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie, deep in the San Francisco sewers. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>This is a legacy of the city’s relative age, with the foundations of our modern-day sewers being laid during the Gold Rush — in what Abadie describes as “a very ad hoc system … people would build pipes to just connect to the nearest creek.” There are still some pipes under your feet that date from the 1840s, she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just like in New York — another old, dense city — it was too hard to rip up San Francisco’s sewer network to replace the old system with secondary pipes. So we’ve repaired and adapted our old system, which is why this city still has those big, wide sewer mains … that people can’t seem to stay out of.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>A Lethal Labyrinth\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>“There’s a lot of things that can happen in the sewer that can actually kill you pretty easily,” Abadie reminds me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For one thing, there’s the risk of drowning down there. Because of San Francisco’s steep topography, Abadie and her colleagues never enter the sewers if there’s so much as a drizzle of rain anywhere in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782637\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782637 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in the sewers of San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“If you’re in a large pipe at the bottom of a hill, it doesn’t take much for a big slug of water to hit you, even if it’s not raining very much where you are,” she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, there’s the danger of toxic gas, namely hydrogen sulfide, produced when organic material (waste matter, seaweed) starts to decompose. At low levels, it has a distinctive smell of rotten eggs. At higher levels, it affects a person’s sense of smell entirely and can knock you out — and kill you — within minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782625\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782625 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in the San Francisco sewers. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>On top of \u003cem>that\u003c/em>, there’s the threat of simply getting lost, injured or both in the sewers. Abadie and her fellow inspectors are equipped with accurate maps and supported by a large chain of people both below and above ground — weather spotters, medics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I go into the sewer system, I know exactly where I am. … You go into a pipe that you see sticking out somewhere? Open up a manhole? You’re not going to know where you are,” Abadie says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782638\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782638 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Stooping low in the sewers. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>After hearing this, I had \u003cem>zero\u003c/em> intention of exploring the sewers alone for this story. But I couldn’t resist asking Megan to take me down to see an underground place that Sierra Hartman had told me about.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>\u003cstrong>A Trip into the Underworld\u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>It looked more like a cave than a sewer, Hartman says. And I knew urban explorers like him would spend months, even years, trying to track down its precise location — because of how striking it looked and how it led right out to the Pacific Ocean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Abadie knew exactly the place Hartman meant and asked me to wait until the timing was just right when it’d be safe enough at low tide, with no chance of rain. That timing turned out to be very early in the morning on the Fourth of July, the lowest tide of the year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782626\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782626 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Reporter Carly Severn being lowered into the sewer system. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As Abadie’s crew secured a harness and waist-high waders to my body, she explained why we’d be taking gas meters and oxygen masks down there. Even though the fast flow of the system we’d be entering would lower the hydrogen sulfide risk, “you can go into a sewer that’s been fine every single time, and one year something can be different,” she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With safety equipment secured, we were lowered one by one into the tunnel by rope, down a tall, rusting ladder until we finally reached the bottom of the sewer with a splash. The water reached our knees. Ahead, through the humid, misty air, was a long, high tunnel that seemed to stretch for miles in front of us. Down there in the darkness was that “sewer cave” — and the ocean. During the rainy season, Abadie reminded me that the tunnel we stood in would have been full of water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782631\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1851px\">\u003ca href=\"manho\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782631 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1851\" height=\"1056\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut.jpg 1851w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-160x91.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-800x456.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-1020x582.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-1200x685.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1851px) 100vw, 1851px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Reporter Carly Severn is lowered down through a manhole. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Surprisingly, the sewers don’t smell how you might fear they would: the odor is agricultural, like a farmyard smell. Yet no matter how pleasant this surprise, wading through high sewer water in such humidity quickly becomes exhausting, like walking through deep snow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As we walked through the tunnel, our voices echoing off the walls, Abadie told me about her first entries into the sewers after she started working for the city in 2011. The underground network, she says, reminded her of the vast Mines of Moria in “The Lord of the Rings.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I thought it was really cool. I even thought it was cool seeing a little turd float by! I mean, that’s not something everyone gets to see,” she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782632\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1885px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782632 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1885\" height=\"1060\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut.jpg 1885w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1885px) 100vw, 1885px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Exploring deep under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As we got closer to what \u003cem>I’d\u003c/em> come to see — that cave — the crashing of the Pacific Ocean suddenly grew louder. Looming in front of us, there it was: What looked like the tall, wide mouth of a cave, deep under San Francisco, carved from dark, jutting rock and yawning into more blackness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This,” Abadie says with some pride, “is definitely the most scenic and beautiful combined sewer overflow in San Francisco.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782633\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"Sruti%20Mamidanna/KQED\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782633 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Carly Severn and Megan Abadie in the mouth of the ‘sewer cave.’\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Passing through the cave, we had to stoop to get through the last part of our journey, our helmets scraping the ceiling. We were now inside the discharge pipe: the way the system can safely get water out during heavy storms, while providing primary-level treatment, when the usual storage areas under the city are full to the brim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the end of the pipe, the waves we could hear crashing close suddenly became visible, as I found myself looking out at the ocean, framed by rock. After hours underground, it was now daylight out there. That entrance onto the water is, unthinkably, how some explorers try to get \u003cem>in\u003c/em> here via a tiny strip of beach that opens up only for a brief period of time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782636\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1846px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782636 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1846\" height=\"1038\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut.jpg 1846w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1846px) 100vw, 1846px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A glimpse of the Pacific Ocean. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As the tide started to rise, the waves started to crash further and further into the pipe toward us, and we knew it was time to go. As we moved back through the tunnel, the difference in smell was palpable: The people of San Francisco were waking up and were starting to use their bathrooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After being attached to the rope and hauled out of the darkness and up through the manhole again, I was suddenly out of the city’s underworld. Exhausted, after hours of trudging through sewer water, the call of the underground was only more apparent to me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So what could people do, I asked Abadie, if after hearing the truth about the darkness and danger down there, they \u003cem>still\u003c/em> couldn’t resist the lure of subterranean exploration?\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782640\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1891px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782640 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1891\" height=\"1064\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut.jpg 1891w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1891px) 100vw, 1891px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in the discharge pipe leading out to the ocean. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna )\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We have a lot of people retiring here. You can come work for us!” she says. “We will get you into sewers. It’ll be awesome. Your passion can actually get you \u003cem>paid\u003c/em> to explore sewers.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Or become a public radio reporter,” she added. “Those are two ways that you can get into sewers and not die.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story first published on Oct. 31, 2019 and was updated and republished on May 2, 2024. Special thanks to Evan Thompson with his assistance for this story.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Sounds of birds, dog barking]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Around us all the time is the city that we know. The same stretch of sidewalk we walk on every day, the bus stop on the corner, our favorite restaurants, our neighborhood parks. If you live anywhere long enough, you can think you’ve seen it all. But what if beneath the streets there was another world? A place that’s so close to you all the time, but you wouldn’t even recognize it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Bay Curious theme music starts] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hey everyone, Olivia Allen-Price here. Over the years we’ve been running Bay Curious, we’ve received a bunch of questions about tunnels. Listeners who say they’ve heard stories of secret passageways running under San Francisco. \u003c/span>We aired an episode on the topic in 2019, but your questions have kept on coming … So today we’re going to revisit it, and answer the question do these tunnels exist?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor Message\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Those stories about hidden underground tunnel systems in the Bay Area. They’re true!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Underground tunnels echo]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: The structure is absolutely amazing. It’s also quite scary. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: That voice you just heard was recorded deep under the streets of San Francisco, and it belongs to reporter Carly Severn. We sent her to investigate the secret world under the city,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Mystical music] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> A lot of you will have heard the legends about the very real labyrinths under major world cities, like the famous catacombs of Paris, that are lined with the bones of the city’s dead. And if you hit Google looking for information on San Francisco’s underground like I did, there’s a name that comes up again and again an urban explorer called Sierra Hardman. And his incredible, haunting photographs of shadowy spaces under the city are, for many people, their first clue that this world of tunnels really exists. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think it’s just ingrained in human nature. You know, you wonder what’s down there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Sierra told me he’s been obsessed with exploring the underground since he was a kid, back when he was growing up in Southern California, riding around on his bike, Goonies style, and peering into dark urban waterways. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I mean, you take a 12 year old kid and you show them an entrance of a tunnel like they’re gonna to go in. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When he was older, he moved to San Francisco and started roaming the streets with his camera while the rest of the city was sleeping, just looking for secret entry ways underground, guided by maps and city plans and whispers from other urban explorers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So much of it is just overgrown. Yeah, you drove past it so many times you don’t really recognize it as something really special. You don’t realize that there’s a whole, like, underground part of this thing.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He found doorways and manholes that led him down into dark, dripping tunnels stretching into blackness beyond the reach of his flashlight. But this network of underground spaces, this is no secret labyrinth built by shadowy figures. It’s San Francisco’s huge sewer network, and there’s one person in this city that knows the sewers inside out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: So my name’s Megan Abadie. I’m an assistant engineer for the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission Wastewater Enterprise. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Megan’s job is making sure that system – yep – pipes filled with your waste works.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I crawl through a lot of sewer pipes. That’s basically my job. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Wastewater management, what we call sewers, can sound kind of gross, but how this stuff all works is pretty impressive. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco is about a seven by seven, you know, 49-50 mile square city. And we actually have over 1000 miles of sewer main. There’s sewers under every block. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The thing about the city’s sewers is many of these pipes are big. Big enough for curious risk takers to walk through rather than crawl, which isn’t possible in many other cities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco has a very different type of sewer system than pretty much any other city in California. It has what’s called a combined system. That means that the stormwater and the sewage water leak from your toilet and your sinks, it all goes into the same set of pipes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We have an old city, and that one pipe system was how folks did it back then. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco’s sewer network, began to be built during the Gold Rush era. So there are some pipes that date from the 1840s. It was a very ad hoc system at that time that people would build pipes to just connect to the nearest creek. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Just like in New York, another old dense city. It was too hard to rip up San Francisco’s sewer network to add secondary pipes. So we’ve repaired and adapted our old system, creating a maze of those big wide sewer mains. But listen, if you’re hearing this and are feeling the lure of exploring the world on the San Francisco yourself, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">don’t\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. Seriously.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s a lot of things that can happen in the sewer that can actually kill you pretty easily. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There was no way I was going to follow in the footsteps of an urban explorer like Sierra Hartmann and go roaming under San Francisco alone. But there was this one particular place that Sierra told me about that I knew I really wanted to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Dramatic music] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A passageway somewhere beneath San Francisco that’s famous for its otherworldly look. Sierra had to pour over old sewer maps to find it. I was told it looks more like a cave than a sewer. And it leads right out onto the Pacific Ocean. Megan knew exactly the place I meant. And when conditions were just right, she said she’d take me down there herself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’ll be over 200 feet below the ground, actually. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Crew conversation in the background]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And so that’s how I end up with Megan and her crew, at 2 AM on the 4th of July in a harness, in a waist-high waders, getting recording equipment taped to my body, about to be lowered down into an open manhole. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">…Does it feel..? Oh, look like it’s a good height, you don’t need to adjust the height.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our underground journey will lead us through a very watery tunnel, through that sewer cave, and into what they call a discharge pipe. Now, that pipe is the way the system can safely get water out during really heavy storms, when the usual storage areas under the city are full to the brim. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah, so when we get out into the discharge pipe, you’re going to hear the ocean, just boring through this final stretch of tunnel. And you can actually, like, feel it. You can’t just hear it – you can feel it in your gut. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I can’t wait!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As one of her crew is strapping a bright yellow gas meter onto my suit, Megan tells me more about the very real dangers of being in the sewers. The big one is a lethal gas called hydrogen sulfide that can kill you before you know it’s there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> You can smell it at low levels, it smells like rotten eggs. At higher levels that actually kills the nerves, it kills your smell nerves, it kills your old factory nerves. So at higher levels, at levels high enough to be dangerous, you won’t smell it at all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And because of the gas risk, I’m getting an air pack too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That’s exactly like the, oxygen masks that you have on an airplane. You just put it over your face and breathe through it, and it’ll give you oxygen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Okay, well, fingers crossed we don’t end up using these. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You won’t, you won’t. But it’s good to know how to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After all this, I’m finally lowered down many feet into the tunnel by rope down a tall, rusting ladder until we splash into knee deep water and into the sewer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Sounds of water splashes]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And I’m staring down into a long, gaping tunnel that seems to stretch out for miles. Oh my goodness. This is exactly like I thought it would be, from watching horror movies. The air is really damp, exactly like they said it would be. You can kind of see this fine mist in the air, and I can hear my voice echoing in a really crazy way. There’s water flow under my feet… And it’s like walking through stream with a really dirty stream. Speaker 2: [00:08:45] We start to make our way toward the sewer cave that few people have seen. Megan tells me that had it been raining above ground, this tunnel would have been a lethal river of freezing water right up to the roof. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, this would totally be fun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Oh, yeah. You wouldn’t – we don’t go into the system when there’s even a drizzle.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you ever wondered what it sounds like to wade through raw sewage, it’s pretty much like this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Carly wading through water]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Weirdly, it does not smell that bad in here. Well, at least not as bad as I thought. Kind of smells like if you spent time on a farm. Kind of smells like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When I started working in for the city in 2011 and doing sewer entry.. So that was after the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Lord of the Rings\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> movies came out, and it reminded me of the mines of Moria with all the pillars, except it was full of water. Yeah. I thought it was really cool. I even thought it was cool seeing little turds float by. I mean, that’s not something everyone gets to see. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As we get closer to what I’d come to see. That cave, the crashing of the ocean out on the outside world suddenly gets louder. And then looming in front of us, right there in the tunnel. There it is. What looks like the tall, wide mouth of a cave, deep under San Francisco, dark, jutting rock yawning into more blackness. The entrance to the pipe that leads out to the water.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s amazing. It looks like it looks like a Middle Earth. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah. Isn’t it beautiful? This is, this is definitely the most scenic and beautiful combined sewer overflow in San Francisco. It’s the only one that’s carved into raw stone like this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We walk into the cave through a stretch of that discharge pipe, and there’s the final surprise. We can see the Pacific Ocean just feet away, framed by the rock. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Water flowing] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After hours underground, we’re now staring at broad daylight. This entrance, unthinkably, is how some explorers try to get in here from the outside via a tiny strip of beach that only opens up for a brief period of time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It’s a bad idea to go into the sewer anywhere, but it’s a really bad idea to go into the sewer via an access point that is only going to be passable for like, an hour or two.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Crouching there in that pipe, I see how quickly the waves are starting to rush towards us, a sign that it was time to hurry out of there and back above ground.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay, it is definitely smelling a little different on our return journey, and I think that’s because people have woken up by now and let’s just say they are using their bathrooms. And after being reattached the rope and having my tired body hauled out of the darkness and up through the manhole again like that, I am out of the underworld. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Carly laughing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And out into daylight on the 4th of July. Cool. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So there you have it. San Francisco’s secret underground is pretty incredible, even if our legendary tunnels are actually some not so secret sewers after all. Except… maybe there’s something Sierra told me that I couldn’t get out of my mind. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Mystical music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A lot of these sewers are maps. Because in the 1906 earthquake and the entire city, or the entire eastern half of the city anyway, just burned to the ground. They lost tons of records of infrastructure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And you know what? According to the city, he’s right. So there is still a touch of mystery under San Francisco, after all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Music fades]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That was KQED’s Carly Seven. This is a story that you really need to see, not just listen to. Video producer Sruti Mamidanna made a video from Carly’s trip and it is very cool. You can find it at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">baycurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> – we’ll drop a link in the show notes too. It’s a new month, which means a new voting round is up at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">baycurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>.\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Let’s hear the choices. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 1 : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">How clean is the Bay Area water? Is it safe to swim? Are some areas better than others? What would it take to get it fully clean or safe? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Whatever happened to the Bay area’s camels? I went to high school in Benicia and heard things about the camel barns. There are no longer camels in the barns. Where did they go, and why were they there to begin with?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What’s the deal with the Devil’s Slide? And how did I get that name? Had to \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">baycurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> to cast your vote, for which question we should answer next.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Bay Curious is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Bill, Tamuna Chkareuli, and me, Olivia Allen-Price with support from Kimberly Low, Molly Wu, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and KQED family. Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member supported KQED. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll see you next week. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Why Is Piedmont a Separate City From Oakland?",
"headTitle": "Why Is Piedmont a Separate City From Oakland? | KQED",
"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This story was first published on April 4, 2019, and was updated on Feb. 1, 2024, to reflect updated census data.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The city of Piedmont in the East Bay is a bit of a geographical oddity. It’s not even 2 square miles in size and is surrounded on all sides by Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you look closely, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/maps/place/Piedmont,+CA/@37.8249429,-122.2441171,5564m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x80857d7f7f19c5f5:0xb8deddc8c24bd3f!8m2!3d37.8243715!4d-122.231635\">town’s borders\u003c/a> seem to make no sense. Instead of following streets or physical landmarks — like the borders of most towns do — in Piedmont, the borders snake around, sometimes through the middle of homes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> listener David Levine has long wondered what’s up with this doughnut hole in the middle of Oakland. He asked, “Why is Piedmont a separate city from Oakland?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think it’s worth understanding the history, and then we can ask questions as a community, ‘Is that still relevant today?'” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, this is a story about Piedmont, of course, but as soon as we started digging around, we quickly found that the story of Piedmont starts in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Little City That Could\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the late 1800s, Oakland incorporated, going from ranch land and small settlement clusters to becoming an official city. Almost immediately, it started to grow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Oakland leaders were under a very ambitious program to enlarge the city’s boundaries and increase the population,” said Oakland librarian Steve Lavoie, who curated an exhibit on Piedmont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This program to expand Oakland’s boundaries was called the Greater Oakland Movement. City leaders wanted to add more land and more residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This movement was not so much motivated by economic interests, but it was motivated by the anti-monopoly group, who felt that small cities were rife for corruption,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These leaders thought that the smaller the city, the greater the chance that greedy folks would do something — like raid the treasury or discourage business competition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The original plan would have created the largest city on the Pacific Coast at the time,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This large city could come together only if they could convince all of the neighboring towns or communities without their own governments to join Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737640\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737640 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/oyy29ensdzi7cg2d-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An illustration in the Oakland Tribune on Nov. 17, 1909. \u003ccite>(Oakland Tribune/Oakland History Room)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Expanding the Boundaries\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Oakland started at about 170 city blocks in size. It grew from there by absorbing surrounding towns, whose names you might recognize as neighborhoods today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1872, it annexed the town of Brooklyn. Twenty-five years later came Temescal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It tried to get Berkeley, but Berkeley turned Oakland down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Each annexation required a vote by the people in the town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard said, “It wasn’t like an aggressive kinda corporate takeover. It was more negotiation with various town councils.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737625\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737625 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-800x450.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1200x675.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1920x1080.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard points out Oakland’s various annexations. \u003ccite>(Chris Hambrick/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>A Wrinkle in the Plan\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Oakland city leaders kept eyeing new territory, and soon, Piedmont was squarely in its crosshairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The City Council took a measure to vote an annexation of all the land in what is now Piedmont and a whole bunch of other East Oakland hamlets,” Steve Lavoie said. Oakland’s City Council set the vote on annexing Piedmont for January 1907.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But then something went wrong. In their paperwork, they failed to name one of the districts they wanted to annex, and the vote was postponed until March. This left a really big opening for mayhem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In the meantime, a group in Piedmont who opposed annexation jumped on the opportunity to try and incorporate Piedmont as a way of preventing annexation into Oakland,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During the delay in Oakland’s vote, some Piedmont residents, a mix of bohemian artists and business people, filed a petition to hold their \u003cem>own \u003c/em>election to become a city. They hoped Piedmont would remain rural and undeveloped if they could beat Oakland to the punch. They saw how densely populated Oakland was, and they didn’t want any part of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Piedmont historian Ann Swift said convincing other Piedmonters to incorporate was no easy feat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Hugh Craig and James Ballentine were the two leaders of the incorporation effort, and they are having meetings every other night, practically trying to rally the troops and get everybody excited about creating this new city,” she said. “But there was also opposition. It was not a slam dunk.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A Tragic Loss\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Something that happened back in 1892 weighed heavily on the minds of voters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The \u003ca href=\"http://piedmonthistorical.org/banner1.html\">Piedmont Springs Hotel\u003c/a>, which was a great, huge, three-story white clapboard edifice that sat in the center of the city, caught fire early one morning in November,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That grand hotel was Piedmont’s biggest tourist attraction — a place where wealthy San Franciscans came to relax. Piedmont didn’t have city services, so Oakland’s Fire Department was summoned to come put out the fire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737636\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737636 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-800x2150.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"2150\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-800x2150.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-160x430.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-446x1200.jpg 446w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping.jpg 762w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The top story in the Oakland Tribune on Nov. 17, 1892, told the news of the devastating fire. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://www.eastbaytimes.com/location/oakland/\">Oakland Tribune/\u003c/a>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/\">Newspapers.com\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“In those days, there were no fire hydrants. You had to bring the water with you,” Swift said. “Well, imagine a team of horses dragging a big tanker full of water up Oakland Avenue, for instance. Very, very difficult and slow going. So by the time the fire wagon’s got to the hotel, they were just sitting with everybody else watching the embers burn.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It took Oakland’s Fire Department two hours to get to the hotel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was completely gone. And that was what happened if your house in the Piedmont hills caught fire,” Swift said. “So Piedmonters were adamant about wanting their own fire service, wanting someone right there in the center of this 1.8 square miles.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>To Join or Not To Join\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>All the Piedmont residents agreed that they needed a better solution for fire response, but they differed on whether better meant being a part of Oakland or figuring it out as their own city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Piedmont had no experience with levying taxes and evaluating property and providing all these city services like street sprinkling. Back in the day, the streets were mostly unpaved, and especially in the summer, you had water trucks that went through the city and watered down the streets so that it wasn’t so dusty,” Swift said. “Well, Piedmont had no water street-dusting things, and so all of that was going to have to be created. And there was a sizable part of the city who thought there was no need to go through that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The big vote on whether Piedmont should incorporate happened in January 1907.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Eighteen more men voted to become a city than voted to not become a city,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Piedmont was officially a city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But here’s where it gets tricky. Oakland’s vote to annex Piedmont still went forward. And in March, a majority of Piedmont residents voted to join Oakland. The vote was 63–43. But this was impossible now that Piedmont was its own city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The only thing that the opponents in the Piedmont hills can do is to hold an election to disincorporate [Piedmont]. So they hold another election in September, and more people voted to become part of the city of Oakland, to disincorporate Piedmont than voted to stay a city,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So then, why is Piedmont separate today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s one of those little nuggets of law that people don’t know much about or care much about until they have to. It requires two-thirds vote of the people to disincorporate a city, and they failed to get two-thirds,” Swift said. [ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Piedmont stayed a separate city, but its edges weave in and out of Oakland. This is because, in their haste to file paperwork to incorporate Piedmont, proponents grabbed the only map they had on hand to define the boundaries — a map of the sewer lines that snaked underneath the houses in Piedmont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What does that mean for the borders of Piedmont today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It means that there are 136 parcels … a portion of which are in Piedmont and a portion of which are in Oakland, and/or, where one side of the street is in Piedmont and the other side of the street is in Oakland, like Rose Avenue,” Swift said. “Sewer boundaries wouldn’t ever be what you would want to use in defining city boundaries. You’d want to use streets or major roads. But they didn’t have that choice, so we’re stuck with it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Piedmont/Oakland Relations Today\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The question-asker wondered about the class and racial divide many see separating Piedmont from Oakland. Host Olivia Allen-Price and reporter Chris Hambrick spoke about it at the end of the episode. Here is the transcript.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Now, I know our question-asker had a few concerns about how Oakland and Piedmont interact. Did any of those issues sort of come to light for you as you were reporting the story? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I learned that both Oakland and Piedmont have an agreement to back each other up when it comes to fire and police services and that Piedmont pays the city of Oakland to use their library since they don’t have any of their own. But when it comes to resident-to-resident interaction, that relationship was a little bit more strained than people would admit on tape. In general, Piedmont residents enjoy having this small-town feel within their city. They know their public officials by name. They know their neighbors. But it seems like some Piedmont residents feel judged for being able to live that way. And on the Oakland side, there’s this feeling that Piedmont residents have been more deliberate and separating themselves and they did that along race and class lines. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why do you think there’s this perception? Where does that come from? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it kind of stems from back in the 1920s. Piedmont had a police chief by the name of Burton Becker, and Burton was an active member of the Klu Klux Klan. He held Klan meetings inside of his house, and at a time when Oakland had banned the Klan because the jurisdiction was different, he was shielded a little bit from persecution, being in Piedmont. He could not be banned because Piedmont is its own city. And then, after World War II, when many African Americans were migrating to the Bay Area from the American South, Oakland’s housing stock was more affordable than Piedmont, so people ended up settling in Oakland. And Piedmont residents are 68% white and 21% Asian, according to the 2020 Census. Compare that with Oakland, which has much larger Black and Latino populations. Some people view this as evidence that Piedmont created a community that excludes based on race and class.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I understand there hasn’t been any like super serious effort to, you know, merge Piedmont and Oakland. But there was a social media campaign a few years back. Can you tell me about the Liberate Piedmont movement? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So a high schooler named Noah Goldstein wanted to explore the possibility of merging Piedmont and Oakland because he felt like Piedmont residents enjoy the benefits of Oakland without having to pay for them. And Piedmont residents pay hefty taxes to support their schools and their city services but they pay that money to the city of Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But it sounds like Piedmont residents weren’t super keen on this idea of becoming a part of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b> Yeah, that’s what I gather. They have a degree of comfort with the way that their life is now. And even though the city founders weren’t able to keep that development from happening, you know, the area’s just 1.7 square miles. And so they did succeed in creating that small-town feel inside their city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right. Well, Chris, thanks so much for looking into this one for us.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Liam O’Donoghue, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://eastbayyesterday.com/\">East Bay Yesterday podcast\u003c/a>, contributed to the research on this story.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The city of Piedmont in the East Bay is a bit of geographical oddity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Levine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I looked at a map and I saw that Piedmont was almost like a doughnut hole in the center of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is David Levine, our question-asker today. On the map, he saw this tiny city, not even two square miles in size, surrounded on all sides by the city of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you take a close look, the borders of Piedmont seem to make no sense. Instead of following streets or physical landmarks — like the borders of most towns do — in Piedmont, the borders snake around — sometimes through the middle of homes. All this got David wondering ….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Levine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Why is Piedmont a separate city from Oakland? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Bay Curious, the podcast that explores the Bay Area one \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">question at a time. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This week we’re bringing you the wild, unexpected origin story of the city of Piedmont. This story first aired in 2019, but it’s a topic we still get questions about on the regular. So, Piedmont fans, Piedmont detractors, and all you generally curious people — stick around for some answers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, this is a story about Piedmont, of course. But as soon as we started digging, we found out…. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> … The story of Piedmont starts in Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> … Reporter Chris Hambrick brings us the tale. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the late 1800s, Oakland incorporated, going from ranch land and small settlement clusters to becoming an official city. Almost immediately, it started to grow. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music begins)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland leaders were under a very ambitious program to enlarge the city’s boundaries and increase the population. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Steve Lavoie. He’s an Oakland librarian who curated an exhibit on Piedmont history. This program to expand Oakland’s boundaries was called the Greater Oakland Movement. City leaders wanted to add more land and more residents. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This movement was not so much motivated by economic interests, but it was motivated by the anti-monopoly group who felt that small cities were ripe for corruption. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They thought the smaller the city, the greater the chance that greedy folks would do something like raid the treasury or discourage competition among businesses. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music fades)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The original plan would have created the largest city on the Pacific coast at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This large city could only come together if they could convince all of the neighboring towns and communities without their own government to join Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music begin)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland started at about 170 city blocks in size. It grew from there by absorbing surrounding towns whose names you might recognize as neighborhoods today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voices:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Temescal. Brooklyn. Fruitvale. Elmhurst. Melrose. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>They tried to get Berkeley, but Berkeley said, “No, thanks.”\u003c/span> Each annexation required a vote by people in the town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dorothy Lazard:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, it wasn’t like an aggressive kind of corporate takeover or anything. It was more negotiation with various town councils. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard. Oakland city leaders kept eyeing new territory, and soon Piedmont was squarely in its crosshairs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The city council took a measure to vote, an annexation of all the land in what is now Piedmont, and a whole bunch of other East Oakland hamlets. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland City Council set the vote on annexing Piedmont for January 1907. But then something went wrong. In their paperwork, they failed to name one of the districts that they wanted to annex, and the vote was postponed until March. This left a really big opening for mayhem. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(dramatic music starts)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the meantime, a group in Piedmont who opposes annexation jumped on the opportunity to try and incorporate Piedmont as a way of preventing annexation into Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> During the delay in Oakland’s vote, some Piedmont residents, a mix of bohemian artists and businesspeople, filed a petition to hold their own election to become a city. If they could beat Oakland to the punch, they hoped Piedmont would remain rural and undeveloped. Piedmont historian Ann Swift says convincing other Piedmont to incorporate was no easy feat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They’re having meetings every other night, practically trying to rally the troops and get everybody excited about creating this new city. But there was also opposition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Something that happened back in 1892 weighed heavily on the minds of voters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Piedmont Springs Hotel, which was a great huge three-story white clapboard edifice that sat in the center of the city, caught fire early one morning in November. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That Grand Hotel was Piedmont’s biggest tourist attraction, a place where wealthy San Franciscans came to relax. Piedmont didn’t have city services, so Oakland’s fire department was summoned to come out the fire.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because in those days, there were no fire hydrants. You had to bring the water with you. Well, imagine a team of horses dragging a big tanker full of water up Oakland Avenue, for instance. Very, very difficult and slow going. So by the time the fire wagons got to the hotel, they were just sitting with everybody else, watching the embers burn. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It took Oakland’s fire department a whopping two hours to get to the hotel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was completely gone. And that was what happened if your house in the Piedmont hills caught fire. So Pidemonters were adamant about wanting their own fire service. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All the Piedmont residents agreed that they needed a better solution for fire response, but they differed on whether better meant being a part of Oakland or figuring it out as their own city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Piedmont had no experience with levying taxes and evaluating property and providing all the city services, and so all of that was going to have to be created. And there was a sizable part of the city who thought there was no need to go through that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The big vote on whether Piedmont should incorporate happened in January 1907. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Eighteen more men voted to become a city, than voted to not become a city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But here’s where it gets tricky. Oakland’s vote to annex Piedmont still went forward, and in March, a majority of Piedmont residents voted to join Oakland. But this was impossible, now that Piedmont was its own city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So the only thing that the opponents in the Piedmont hills can do is to hold an election to disincorporate a city. So they hold another election in September, and more people vote to become part of the city of Oakland, to disincorporate Piedmont than vote to stay a city. So I always ask the school kids, well, so how come I’m not talking to you in Oakland City Hall? It’s one of those little nuggets of lore that people don’t know much about or care much about until they have to. It requires two-thirds vote of the people to disincorporate a city, and they failed to get two-thirds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Piedmont stayed a separate city, with its edges within and out of Oakland. This is because, in their haste to file paperwork to incorporate Piedmont, proponents grabbed the only map they had on hand to define the boundaries. It was a map of the sewer lines that snaked underneath the houses in Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick (in tape):\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what does that mean for the borders of Piedmont today? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dorothy Lazard:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It means that there are 136 parcels, a portion of which are in Piedmont and a portion of which are in Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, Chris, it sounds like Piedmont will continue to be sort of this city within a city, you know, the Vatican of the East Bay, if you will. Now, I know our question-asker had a few concerns about how Oakland and Piedmont interact. Did any of those issues sort of come to light for you as you were reporting the story? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I learned that both Oakland and Piedmont have an agreement to back each other up when it comes to fire and police services and that Piedmont pays the city of Oakland to use their library since they don’t have any of their own. But when it comes to resident-to-resident interaction, that relationship was a little bit more strained than people would admit on tape. In general, Piedmont residents enjoy having this small-town feel within their city. They know their public officials by name. They know their neighbors. But it seems like some Piedmont residents feel judged for being able to live that way. And on the Oakland side, there’s this feeling that Piedmont residents have been more deliberate and separating themselves and they did that along race and class lines. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why do you think there’s this perception? Where does that come from? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it kind of stems from back in the 1920s. Piedmont had a police chief by the name of Burton Becker, and Burton was an active member of the Klu Klux Klan. He held Klan meetings inside of his house, and at a time when Oakland had banned the Klan because the jurisdiction was different, he was shielded a little bit from persecution, being in Piedmont. He could not be banned because Piedmont is its own city. And then, after World War II, when many African Americans were migrating to the Bay Area from the American South, Oakland’s housing stock was more affordable than Piedmont, so people ended up settling in Oakland. And Piedmont residents are 68% white and 21% Asian, according to the 2020 Census. Compare that with Oakland, which has much larger Black and Latino populations. Some people view this as evidence that Piedmont created a community that excludes based on race and class.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I understand there hasn’t been any like super serious effort to, you know, merge Piedmont and Oakland. But there was a social media campaign a few years back. Can you tell me about the Liberate Piedmont movement? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So a high schooler named Noah Goldstein wanted to explore the possibility of merging Piedmont and Oakland because he felt like Piedmont residents enjoy the benefits of Oakland without having to pay for them. And Piedmont residents pay hefty taxes to support their schools and their city services but they pay that money to the city of Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But it sounds like Piedmont residents weren’t super keen on this idea of becoming a part of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, that’s what I gather. They have a degree of comfort with the way that their life is now. And even though the city founders weren’t able to keep that development from happening, you know, the area’s just 1.7 square miles. And so they did succeed in creating that small-town feel inside their city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right. Well, Chris, thanks so much for looking into this one for us. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A big thanks to Bay Curious listener David Levine for asking this week’s question. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Liam O’Donohue, the host and creator of the East Bay Yesterday podcast, was a big help with the research on this story. If you haven’t checked out Liam’s podcast yet, I highly suggest you give it a try. Just search East Bay yesterday. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Bay Curious is produced in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. The show is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"excerpt": "Piedmont is surrounded on all sides by Oakland. A look back at the history of how the city was founded.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This story was first published on April 4, 2019, and was updated on Feb. 1, 2024, to reflect updated census data.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The city of Piedmont in the East Bay is a bit of a geographical oddity. It’s not even 2 square miles in size and is surrounded on all sides by Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you look closely, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/maps/place/Piedmont,+CA/@37.8249429,-122.2441171,5564m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x80857d7f7f19c5f5:0xb8deddc8c24bd3f!8m2!3d37.8243715!4d-122.231635\">town’s borders\u003c/a> seem to make no sense. Instead of following streets or physical landmarks — like the borders of most towns do — in Piedmont, the borders snake around, sometimes through the middle of homes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> listener David Levine has long wondered what’s up with this doughnut hole in the middle of Oakland. He asked, “Why is Piedmont a separate city from Oakland?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think it’s worth understanding the history, and then we can ask questions as a community, ‘Is that still relevant today?'” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, this is a story about Piedmont, of course, but as soon as we started digging around, we quickly found that the story of Piedmont starts in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Little City That Could\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the late 1800s, Oakland incorporated, going from ranch land and small settlement clusters to becoming an official city. Almost immediately, it started to grow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Oakland leaders were under a very ambitious program to enlarge the city’s boundaries and increase the population,” said Oakland librarian Steve Lavoie, who curated an exhibit on Piedmont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This program to expand Oakland’s boundaries was called the Greater Oakland Movement. City leaders wanted to add more land and more residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This movement was not so much motivated by economic interests, but it was motivated by the anti-monopoly group, who felt that small cities were rife for corruption,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These leaders thought that the smaller the city, the greater the chance that greedy folks would do something — like raid the treasury or discourage business competition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The original plan would have created the largest city on the Pacific Coast at the time,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This large city could come together only if they could convince all of the neighboring towns or communities without their own governments to join Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737640\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737640 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/oyy29ensdzi7cg2d-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An illustration in the Oakland Tribune on Nov. 17, 1909. \u003ccite>(Oakland Tribune/Oakland History Room)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Expanding the Boundaries\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Oakland started at about 170 city blocks in size. It grew from there by absorbing surrounding towns, whose names you might recognize as neighborhoods today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1872, it annexed the town of Brooklyn. Twenty-five years later came Temescal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It tried to get Berkeley, but Berkeley turned Oakland down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Each annexation required a vote by the people in the town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard said, “It wasn’t like an aggressive kinda corporate takeover. It was more negotiation with various town councils.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737625\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737625 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-800x450.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1200x675.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1920x1080.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard points out Oakland’s various annexations. \u003ccite>(Chris Hambrick/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>A Wrinkle in the Plan\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Oakland city leaders kept eyeing new territory, and soon, Piedmont was squarely in its crosshairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The City Council took a measure to vote an annexation of all the land in what is now Piedmont and a whole bunch of other East Oakland hamlets,” Steve Lavoie said. Oakland’s City Council set the vote on annexing Piedmont for January 1907.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But then something went wrong. In their paperwork, they failed to name one of the districts they wanted to annex, and the vote was postponed until March. This left a really big opening for mayhem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In the meantime, a group in Piedmont who opposed annexation jumped on the opportunity to try and incorporate Piedmont as a way of preventing annexation into Oakland,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During the delay in Oakland’s vote, some Piedmont residents, a mix of bohemian artists and business people, filed a petition to hold their \u003cem>own \u003c/em>election to become a city. They hoped Piedmont would remain rural and undeveloped if they could beat Oakland to the punch. They saw how densely populated Oakland was, and they didn’t want any part of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Piedmont historian Ann Swift said convincing other Piedmonters to incorporate was no easy feat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Hugh Craig and James Ballentine were the two leaders of the incorporation effort, and they are having meetings every other night, practically trying to rally the troops and get everybody excited about creating this new city,” she said. “But there was also opposition. It was not a slam dunk.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A Tragic Loss\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Something that happened back in 1892 weighed heavily on the minds of voters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The \u003ca href=\"http://piedmonthistorical.org/banner1.html\">Piedmont Springs Hotel\u003c/a>, which was a great, huge, three-story white clapboard edifice that sat in the center of the city, caught fire early one morning in November,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That grand hotel was Piedmont’s biggest tourist attraction — a place where wealthy San Franciscans came to relax. Piedmont didn’t have city services, so Oakland’s Fire Department was summoned to come put out the fire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737636\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737636 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-800x2150.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"2150\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-800x2150.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-160x430.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-446x1200.jpg 446w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping.jpg 762w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The top story in the Oakland Tribune on Nov. 17, 1892, told the news of the devastating fire. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://www.eastbaytimes.com/location/oakland/\">Oakland Tribune/\u003c/a>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/\">Newspapers.com\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“In those days, there were no fire hydrants. You had to bring the water with you,” Swift said. “Well, imagine a team of horses dragging a big tanker full of water up Oakland Avenue, for instance. Very, very difficult and slow going. So by the time the fire wagon’s got to the hotel, they were just sitting with everybody else watching the embers burn.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It took Oakland’s Fire Department two hours to get to the hotel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was completely gone. And that was what happened if your house in the Piedmont hills caught fire,” Swift said. “So Piedmonters were adamant about wanting their own fire service, wanting someone right there in the center of this 1.8 square miles.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>To Join or Not To Join\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>All the Piedmont residents agreed that they needed a better solution for fire response, but they differed on whether better meant being a part of Oakland or figuring it out as their own city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Piedmont had no experience with levying taxes and evaluating property and providing all these city services like street sprinkling. Back in the day, the streets were mostly unpaved, and especially in the summer, you had water trucks that went through the city and watered down the streets so that it wasn’t so dusty,” Swift said. “Well, Piedmont had no water street-dusting things, and so all of that was going to have to be created. And there was a sizable part of the city who thought there was no need to go through that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The big vote on whether Piedmont should incorporate happened in January 1907.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Eighteen more men voted to become a city than voted to not become a city,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Piedmont was officially a city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But here’s where it gets tricky. Oakland’s vote to annex Piedmont still went forward. And in March, a majority of Piedmont residents voted to join Oakland. The vote was 63–43. But this was impossible now that Piedmont was its own city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The only thing that the opponents in the Piedmont hills can do is to hold an election to disincorporate [Piedmont]. So they hold another election in September, and more people voted to become part of the city of Oakland, to disincorporate Piedmont than voted to stay a city,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So then, why is Piedmont separate today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s one of those little nuggets of law that people don’t know much about or care much about until they have to. It requires two-thirds vote of the people to disincorporate a city, and they failed to get two-thirds,” Swift said. \u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Piedmont stayed a separate city, but its edges weave in and out of Oakland. This is because, in their haste to file paperwork to incorporate Piedmont, proponents grabbed the only map they had on hand to define the boundaries — a map of the sewer lines that snaked underneath the houses in Piedmont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What does that mean for the borders of Piedmont today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It means that there are 136 parcels … a portion of which are in Piedmont and a portion of which are in Oakland, and/or, where one side of the street is in Piedmont and the other side of the street is in Oakland, like Rose Avenue,” Swift said. “Sewer boundaries wouldn’t ever be what you would want to use in defining city boundaries. You’d want to use streets or major roads. But they didn’t have that choice, so we’re stuck with it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Piedmont/Oakland Relations Today\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The question-asker wondered about the class and racial divide many see separating Piedmont from Oakland. Host Olivia Allen-Price and reporter Chris Hambrick spoke about it at the end of the episode. Here is the transcript.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Now, I know our question-asker had a few concerns about how Oakland and Piedmont interact. Did any of those issues sort of come to light for you as you were reporting the story? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I learned that both Oakland and Piedmont have an agreement to back each other up when it comes to fire and police services and that Piedmont pays the city of Oakland to use their library since they don’t have any of their own. But when it comes to resident-to-resident interaction, that relationship was a little bit more strained than people would admit on tape. In general, Piedmont residents enjoy having this small-town feel within their city. They know their public officials by name. They know their neighbors. But it seems like some Piedmont residents feel judged for being able to live that way. And on the Oakland side, there’s this feeling that Piedmont residents have been more deliberate and separating themselves and they did that along race and class lines. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why do you think there’s this perception? Where does that come from? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it kind of stems from back in the 1920s. Piedmont had a police chief by the name of Burton Becker, and Burton was an active member of the Klu Klux Klan. He held Klan meetings inside of his house, and at a time when Oakland had banned the Klan because the jurisdiction was different, he was shielded a little bit from persecution, being in Piedmont. He could not be banned because Piedmont is its own city. And then, after World War II, when many African Americans were migrating to the Bay Area from the American South, Oakland’s housing stock was more affordable than Piedmont, so people ended up settling in Oakland. And Piedmont residents are 68% white and 21% Asian, according to the 2020 Census. Compare that with Oakland, which has much larger Black and Latino populations. Some people view this as evidence that Piedmont created a community that excludes based on race and class.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I understand there hasn’t been any like super serious effort to, you know, merge Piedmont and Oakland. But there was a social media campaign a few years back. Can you tell me about the Liberate Piedmont movement? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So a high schooler named Noah Goldstein wanted to explore the possibility of merging Piedmont and Oakland because he felt like Piedmont residents enjoy the benefits of Oakland without having to pay for them. And Piedmont residents pay hefty taxes to support their schools and their city services but they pay that money to the city of Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But it sounds like Piedmont residents weren’t super keen on this idea of becoming a part of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b> Yeah, that’s what I gather. They have a degree of comfort with the way that their life is now. And even though the city founders weren’t able to keep that development from happening, you know, the area’s just 1.7 square miles. And so they did succeed in creating that small-town feel inside their city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right. Well, Chris, thanks so much for looking into this one for us.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Liam O’Donoghue, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://eastbayyesterday.com/\">East Bay Yesterday podcast\u003c/a>, contributed to the research on this story.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The city of Piedmont in the East Bay is a bit of geographical oddity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Levine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I looked at a map and I saw that Piedmont was almost like a doughnut hole in the center of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is David Levine, our question-asker today. On the map, he saw this tiny city, not even two square miles in size, surrounded on all sides by the city of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you take a close look, the borders of Piedmont seem to make no sense. Instead of following streets or physical landmarks — like the borders of most towns do — in Piedmont, the borders snake around — sometimes through the middle of homes. All this got David wondering ….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Levine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Why is Piedmont a separate city from Oakland? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Bay Curious, the podcast that explores the Bay Area one \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">question at a time. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This week we’re bringing you the wild, unexpected origin story of the city of Piedmont. This story first aired in 2019, but it’s a topic we still get questions about on the regular. So, Piedmont fans, Piedmont detractors, and all you generally curious people — stick around for some answers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, this is a story about Piedmont, of course. But as soon as we started digging, we found out…. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> … The story of Piedmont starts in Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> … Reporter Chris Hambrick brings us the tale. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the late 1800s, Oakland incorporated, going from ranch land and small settlement clusters to becoming an official city. Almost immediately, it started to grow. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music begins)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland leaders were under a very ambitious program to enlarge the city’s boundaries and increase the population. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Steve Lavoie. He’s an Oakland librarian who curated an exhibit on Piedmont history. This program to expand Oakland’s boundaries was called the Greater Oakland Movement. City leaders wanted to add more land and more residents. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This movement was not so much motivated by economic interests, but it was motivated by the anti-monopoly group who felt that small cities were ripe for corruption. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They thought the smaller the city, the greater the chance that greedy folks would do something like raid the treasury or discourage competition among businesses. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music fades)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The original plan would have created the largest city on the Pacific coast at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This large city could only come together if they could convince all of the neighboring towns and communities without their own government to join Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music begin)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland started at about 170 city blocks in size. It grew from there by absorbing surrounding towns whose names you might recognize as neighborhoods today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voices:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Temescal. Brooklyn. Fruitvale. Elmhurst. Melrose. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>They tried to get Berkeley, but Berkeley said, “No, thanks.”\u003c/span> Each annexation required a vote by people in the town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dorothy Lazard:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, it wasn’t like an aggressive kind of corporate takeover or anything. It was more negotiation with various town councils. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard. Oakland city leaders kept eyeing new territory, and soon Piedmont was squarely in its crosshairs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The city council took a measure to vote, an annexation of all the land in what is now Piedmont, and a whole bunch of other East Oakland hamlets. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland City Council set the vote on annexing Piedmont for January 1907. But then something went wrong. In their paperwork, they failed to name one of the districts that they wanted to annex, and the vote was postponed until March. This left a really big opening for mayhem. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(dramatic music starts)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the meantime, a group in Piedmont who opposes annexation jumped on the opportunity to try and incorporate Piedmont as a way of preventing annexation into Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> During the delay in Oakland’s vote, some Piedmont residents, a mix of bohemian artists and businesspeople, filed a petition to hold their own election to become a city. If they could beat Oakland to the punch, they hoped Piedmont would remain rural and undeveloped. Piedmont historian Ann Swift says convincing other Piedmont to incorporate was no easy feat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They’re having meetings every other night, practically trying to rally the troops and get everybody excited about creating this new city. But there was also opposition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Something that happened back in 1892 weighed heavily on the minds of voters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Piedmont Springs Hotel, which was a great huge three-story white clapboard edifice that sat in the center of the city, caught fire early one morning in November. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That Grand Hotel was Piedmont’s biggest tourist attraction, a place where wealthy San Franciscans came to relax. Piedmont didn’t have city services, so Oakland’s fire department was summoned to come out the fire.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because in those days, there were no fire hydrants. You had to bring the water with you. Well, imagine a team of horses dragging a big tanker full of water up Oakland Avenue, for instance. Very, very difficult and slow going. So by the time the fire wagons got to the hotel, they were just sitting with everybody else, watching the embers burn. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It took Oakland’s fire department a whopping two hours to get to the hotel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was completely gone. And that was what happened if your house in the Piedmont hills caught fire. So Pidemonters were adamant about wanting their own fire service. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All the Piedmont residents agreed that they needed a better solution for fire response, but they differed on whether better meant being a part of Oakland or figuring it out as their own city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Piedmont had no experience with levying taxes and evaluating property and providing all the city services, and so all of that was going to have to be created. And there was a sizable part of the city who thought there was no need to go through that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The big vote on whether Piedmont should incorporate happened in January 1907. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Eighteen more men voted to become a city, than voted to not become a city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But here’s where it gets tricky. Oakland’s vote to annex Piedmont still went forward, and in March, a majority of Piedmont residents voted to join Oakland. But this was impossible, now that Piedmont was its own city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So the only thing that the opponents in the Piedmont hills can do is to hold an election to disincorporate a city. So they hold another election in September, and more people vote to become part of the city of Oakland, to disincorporate Piedmont than vote to stay a city. So I always ask the school kids, well, so how come I’m not talking to you in Oakland City Hall? It’s one of those little nuggets of lore that people don’t know much about or care much about until they have to. It requires two-thirds vote of the people to disincorporate a city, and they failed to get two-thirds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Piedmont stayed a separate city, with its edges within and out of Oakland. This is because, in their haste to file paperwork to incorporate Piedmont, proponents grabbed the only map they had on hand to define the boundaries. It was a map of the sewer lines that snaked underneath the houses in Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick (in tape):\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what does that mean for the borders of Piedmont today? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dorothy Lazard:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It means that there are 136 parcels, a portion of which are in Piedmont and a portion of which are in Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, Chris, it sounds like Piedmont will continue to be sort of this city within a city, you know, the Vatican of the East Bay, if you will. Now, I know our question-asker had a few concerns about how Oakland and Piedmont interact. Did any of those issues sort of come to light for you as you were reporting the story? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I learned that both Oakland and Piedmont have an agreement to back each other up when it comes to fire and police services and that Piedmont pays the city of Oakland to use their library since they don’t have any of their own. But when it comes to resident-to-resident interaction, that relationship was a little bit more strained than people would admit on tape. In general, Piedmont residents enjoy having this small-town feel within their city. They know their public officials by name. They know their neighbors. But it seems like some Piedmont residents feel judged for being able to live that way. And on the Oakland side, there’s this feeling that Piedmont residents have been more deliberate and separating themselves and they did that along race and class lines. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why do you think there’s this perception? Where does that come from? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it kind of stems from back in the 1920s. Piedmont had a police chief by the name of Burton Becker, and Burton was an active member of the Klu Klux Klan. He held Klan meetings inside of his house, and at a time when Oakland had banned the Klan because the jurisdiction was different, he was shielded a little bit from persecution, being in Piedmont. He could not be banned because Piedmont is its own city. And then, after World War II, when many African Americans were migrating to the Bay Area from the American South, Oakland’s housing stock was more affordable than Piedmont, so people ended up settling in Oakland. And Piedmont residents are 68% white and 21% Asian, according to the 2020 Census. Compare that with Oakland, which has much larger Black and Latino populations. Some people view this as evidence that Piedmont created a community that excludes based on race and class.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I understand there hasn’t been any like super serious effort to, you know, merge Piedmont and Oakland. But there was a social media campaign a few years back. Can you tell me about the Liberate Piedmont movement? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So a high schooler named Noah Goldstein wanted to explore the possibility of merging Piedmont and Oakland because he felt like Piedmont residents enjoy the benefits of Oakland without having to pay for them. And Piedmont residents pay hefty taxes to support their schools and their city services but they pay that money to the city of Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But it sounds like Piedmont residents weren’t super keen on this idea of becoming a part of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, that’s what I gather. They have a degree of comfort with the way that their life is now. And even though the city founders weren’t able to keep that development from happening, you know, the area’s just 1.7 square miles. And so they did succeed in creating that small-town feel inside their city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right. Well, Chris, thanks so much for looking into this one for us. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A big thanks to Bay Curious listener David Levine for asking this week’s question. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Liam O’Donohue, the host and creator of the East Bay Yesterday podcast, was a big help with the research on this story. If you haven’t checked out Liam’s podcast yet, I highly suggest you give it a try. Just search East Bay yesterday. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Bay Curious is produced in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. The show is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Why Is Part of Alameda Island in San Francisco?",
"headTitle": "Why Is Part of Alameda Island in San Francisco? | KQED",
"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story first published November 1, 2018.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Lori Bodenhamer has noticed something odd whenever she pulls up a map of San Francisco online.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My little shortcut to get to Google Maps is I just type in ‘SF Map,’ and then Google pops up,” Bodenhamer says. “And it outlines S.F. in red, and I noticed there were some bits of red in Alameda.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And it’s not just Google Maps being wonky. Maps from the San Francisco Planning Department confirm that a piece of Alameda Island is inside San Francisco’s borders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To understand how this is possible, we have to go back hundreds of years to when California was part of Spain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702286\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11702286\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-800x607.jpg\" alt=\"A map from the San Francisco Planning Department shows the same geographic oddity.\" width=\"800\" height=\"607\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-800x607.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-160x121.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-1020x774.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-1200x911.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-1180x896.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-960x729.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-240x182.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-375x285.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-520x395.jpg 520w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut.jpg 1670w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A map from the San Francisco Planning Department shows the same geographic oddity. \u003ccite>(San Francisco Planning Department)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>The Peraltas\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>It starts in 1820 when the Spanish government gave Luís Maria Peralta a land grant of more than 40,000 acres in recognition of his 40 years of military service. Known as the \u003ca href=\"http://www.peraltahacienda.org/pages/main.php?pageid=69&pagecategory=3\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Rancho San Antonio\u003c/a>, it covered present-day San Leandro, Oakland, Alameda, Emeryville, Piedmont, Berkeley and Albany.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Basically, the Spanish government gave him the entire East Bay (even though Native Americans, including the Ohlone and Bay Miwok, had already been living there for centuries).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Peralta never actually lived on the Rancho, but he split the land among his four sons, who settled the land, built homes, raised cattle and fostered the growth of a thriving, Spanish-speaking community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1848, California was ceded to the United States by Mexico, and in 1850, it became a state. For existing landowners like the Peraltas, this created several headaches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>U.S. squatters settled in California without respect to who had owned the land under Spanish and Mexican rule. Squatters were such a problem that Antonio Peralta, one of Luís’ sons, was shocked in 1851 to find two men actually interested in buying some of his land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>William Chipman and Gideon Aughinbaugh bought 160 acres from Antonio in 1851 for $14,000, and they would use the land to \u003ca href=\"https://alamedamuseum.org/news-and-resources/history/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">found the city of Alameda\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Antonio still had problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The U.S. government made Spanish and Mexican landowners go to court to prove their claims, and it wasn’t until 1874 that Antonio finally received a patent from the government affirming his claim to his land, including the piece he had sold to Chipman and Aughinbaugh.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Navy pushes Alameda into San Francisco\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The story picks up in 1956 when the U.S. Navy makes an eminent domain claim of about 50 acres of submerged land underneath San Francisco Bay off the coast of Alameda. (The Navy would end up revising their request down to just shy of 40 acres.)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Navy was looking to expand the Alameda Naval Air Station, which had opened just before the start of World War II and served as the launching site for the first major bombing raid of Japan after Pearl Harbor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702298\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11702298 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-800x529.jpg\" alt=\"U.S. Navy aircraft carriers USS Hancock (CVA-19), USS Midway (CVA-41), and USS Bon Homme Richard (CVA-31) berthed at Naval Air Station Alameda in 1958.\" width=\"800\" height=\"529\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-800x529.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-1020x675.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-1200x794.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-1180x781.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-960x635.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-240x159.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-375x248.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-520x344.jpg 520w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut.jpg 1489w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">US Navy aircraft carriers USS Hancock (CVA-19), USS Midway (CVA-41), and USS Bonhomme Richard (CVA-31) berthed at Naval Air Station Alameda in 1958. \u003ccite>(U.S. Navy [Public domain], via Wikimedia Commons)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The Navy had regularly filled in parts of the bay to expand the air station, but when they did it this time, they crossed over the invisible line underneath the bay that separates Alameda from San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks to the Navy, there was now a tiny piece of San Francisco attached to Alameda Island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702301\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11702301\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-800x2485.jpg\" alt=\"A newspaper clipping detailing one of Carol Heche's other legal battles borne out of her claim to submerged land off of Alameda Island.\" width=\"800\" height=\"2485\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-800x2485.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-160x497.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-386x1200.jpg 386w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-240x746.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-375x1165.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-520x1615.jpg 520w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut.jpg 900w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A newspaper clipping detailing one of Carol Heche’s other legal battles borne out of her claim to submerged land off of Alameda Island. \u003ccite>(Newspapers.com)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But no one at the time seemed to care much about this border breach. What they did care about was who the federal government would have to pay for taking this piece of land. The state of California said it was the proper beneficiary, but two East Bay women saw it differently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Carol Heche and Elinor Petersen claimed that the submerged land actually belonged to them, and therefore they deserved payment as the descendants of the founders of Alameda — William Chipman and Gideon Aughinbaugh. Petersen said she purchased the estate of Aughinbaugh’s daughter, Ella, and Heche was Chipman’s granddaughter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She was very proud of their heritage, and she was the historian of the family,” says George Gunn, curator of the Alameda Museum, about Heche. “She claimed that their property extended out into the bay.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This was the women’s central argument. According to court records, the women traced their claim through their Alameda ancestors and back to the original Peralta land grant from the king of Spain in 1820, which was, according to them, “bounded on the southwest by the sea.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In Spanish laws, the lands bounded by the sea, are lands that extended to the deep navigable waters of the sea,” Petersen wrote in a court filing in January 1962.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This begs the question of what exactly the “deep navigable waters” included and how far out these women claimed ownership underneath San Francisco Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t know how far out I own,” Petersen said in court in August 1962, according to a transcript. “It doesn’t really make any difference, because the Federal Government is protecting it for me, and I have a fine Government and I’m not worried.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But she and Heche were certain that they owned the part of the bay the Navy had taken, and they believed fervently that their claim had been confirmed by the 1874 patent, as shown by this exchange between Petersen and Judge Alfonso Zirpoli at a pretrial hearing in December 1962:\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>ZIRPOLI: The only question involved is whether or not your land comes within this patent.\u003cbr>\nPETERSEN: It does.\u003cbr>\nZIRPOLI: If it does, you are entitled to judgment in your favor.\u003cbr>\nPETERSEN: Absolutely does.\u003cbr>\nZIRPOLI: If it doesn’t, you are not.\u003cbr>\nPETERSEN: It absolutely does.\u003cbr>\nZIRPOLI: I think it is as simple as that.\u003cbr>\nPETERSEN: It does, absolutely, every bit of it.\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>But it actually didn’t.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While the Spanish land grant may have implied ownership out into the bay’s “deep navigable waters,” the 1874 patent explicitly described the southwest border as, “… along the Bay of San Francisco, at the line of ordinary high tide.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Zirpoli ruled against the women and denied their request for a new trial. Petersen and Heche appealed the decision to the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, which also ruled against them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A boundary line at ‘ordinary high water’ or ‘ordinary high tide’ cannot, by any process of interpretation, be located somewhere on or under the surface of the water a mile or more from the line of high tide or high water,” the appeals court wrote \u003ca href=\"https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/263062/elinor-e-petersen-carol-e-heche-and-51424-acres-of-land-more-or-less/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">in its February 1964 decision\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A year later, the federal government cut the state of California a check for $13,619.55 for the submerged land it had claimed nearly a decade earlier. And Heche and Petersen walked away empty-handed.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Who you gonna call: San Francisco or Alameda?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702307\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11702307\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"A view across the water of San Francisco ... from San Francisco on Alameda Island. It's trippy, right?\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-1200x900.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-1180x885.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-960x720.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-240x180.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-375x281.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-520x390.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A view across the water of San Francisco … from San Francisco on Alameda Island. It’s trippy, right? \u003ccite>(Ryan Levi/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>After the Alameda Naval Air Station closed in 1997, the Navy began transferring the land to different entities. In 2014, the Department of Veterans Affairs agreed to take over 624 acres, including the border-crossing sliver.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“From the VA’s perspective, it really doesn’t matter if it’s Alameda or San Francisco County. It’s federal property,” says Larry Janes, who’s overseeing the development of a new VA hospital and national cemetery on the former naval base.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Neither San Francisco nor Alameda zone the geographic oddity — which spans about 30 acres — and the VA has promised never to develop that part of the land because it’s home to an endangered bird species, the California least tern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s currently no regular public access to that part of the former base, but our Bay Curious question asker, Lori, couldn’t help but wonder what would happen if a crime was committed out there. Whose jurisdiction would it fall under?\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702306\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11702306\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"Bay Curious listener Lori Bodenhamer talks with Larry Janes of the Department of Veterans' Affairs about the piece of Alameda Island, now owned by the VA, that crosses over into San Francisco.\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-1200x900.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-1180x885.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-960x720.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-240x180.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-375x281.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-520x390.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bay Curious listener Lori Bodenhamer talks with Larry Janes of the Department of Veterans Affairs about the piece of Alameda Island, now owned by the VA, that crosses over into San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Olivia Allen-Price/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We actually have a contract with East Bay Regional Park District police,” Janes says. “And we have our own VA police as well, and we work with the Alameda police, so if we needed backup from Alameda, we could go to them as well.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Janes says the VA is talking to the city of Alameda about putting in a recreational trail that would hug the coastline around the sliver, so sometime in the future, anyone could walk from Alameda right into San Francisco and stand on land that was disputed all the way back to the king of Spain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> We start today’s episode on a beautiful, clear and sunny day back in 2018.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> Could you tell us where have we brought you today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> We’re on the western side of Alameda Island and we’re very close to … I see the Port of Oakland. We’re in the Hanger One Vodka Area. I think it’s called Spirits Vodka now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> I’m standing in front of a giant sign that says “Warning Restricted Area: Authorized Personnel Only” with this week’s question asker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> My name is Lori Bodenhamer. I’ve lived in San Francisco for about 20 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> We’ve come to Alameda to check out a peculiar piece of land that Lori noticed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> My little shortcut to get to the Google Maps — I just type in “SF Map,” and then Google pops up and it outlines San Francisco in red and noticed there were some bits of red in Alameda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> The border of San Francisco should be simple. You’ve got water on three sides and a straight line along the southern edge. But … not so!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> I wondered why there’s a little sliver of San Francisco on the western edge of Alameda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Theme music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> This is Bay Curious, the show where we answer your questions about the Bay Area. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Today we travel from 19th century Spanish California to a World War II-era Navy station in Alameda. All to figure out why the heck San Francisco has jumped the bay. This episode first aired in 2018 and we’re reairing it today because it tells one of the wackier histories of land ownership we’ve found. Stick around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We asked Bay Curious reporter Ryan Levi to tackle this one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> It looks like a little right triangle, just a 30-some acre sliver at the very western tip of Alameda Island. It’s all the way across the bay from San Francisco, but somehow, it’s still a part of S-F.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And honestly, I thought figuring out how that was possible would be pretty easy. Just call someone up at the city and get the answer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I start calling people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I try the City Administrator’s office \u003cem>[sound of voicemail]\u003c/em>. They don’t know and say I should email the Department of Real Estate \u003cem>[typing]\u003c/em>. They’ve also got nothing. So I reach out to the Department of Public Works where finally we have a breakthrough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I get a tip about a court case from 1964 that’s somehow connected to our sliver, but records from that far back aren’t going to be digitized so my only option is to go find it for myself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> Are you where I check in?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Front desk worker:\u003c/strong> Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> The National Archives Building in San Bruno is kind of hidden away behind the Tanforan mall and a housing development. I expected it to be kind of dungeon-y, but it’s got lots of windows and natural light and wooden tables set up for researchers. Feels like a library.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>National Archives worker:\u003c/strong> This is case 35276.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> They set me up at one of the tables with this gray file box filled with three folders bursting with documents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>National Archives worker:\u003c/strong> Looks like it’s oversized maps and stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And when I start going through them all, I realize that this case goes back a lot further than I thought. All the way back to when California was part of Spain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It starts in 1820 with a guy named Luís Maria Peralta.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/strong> He served as a soldier for the Spanish government.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> Dennis Evanosky is the publisher of the Alameda Sun newspaper and until recently was the president of the Alameda Museum. He says Peralta caught the attention of the Spanish government when he secured the release of a group of priests who had been kidnapped from Mission San Jose and taken to the Central Valley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/strong> As a thank you gift, he got a land grant that stretched all the way from El Cerrito down to San Leandro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> Basically they give him the entire East Bay, even though Native Americans like the Ohlone and Bay Miwok had already been living there for centuries. But Spain gives Peralta the land, which he then splits among his sons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fast forward 31 years. California is now part of the United States and one of Peralta’s sons, Antonio, is looking to unload some of his land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/strong> Antonio was delighted to find out that there were actually Americans that were willing to pay him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> This was because squatting was a big problem in the state’s early days … so Peralta was thrilled when two men…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/strong> William Worthington Chipman and Gideon Aughinbaugh.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> Made an offer on 160 acres of Peralta’s land where they established the town of Alameda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Peralta had a problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His land was in the U.S. now and it would take the government more than 20 years to recognize his claim with a patent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/strong> Unfortunately, by then yes the land would have belonged to him had he not sold a lot of it. And also by then Aughinbaugh and Chipman were both gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> So Peralta, Chipman and Aughinbaugh had all left Alameda by the time the government finally got around to affirming Peralta’s claim in 1874 and issuing him that patent for the land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over actor:\u003c/strong> Now Know ye, that the United States of America in consideration of the premises \u003cem>[voice fades out]\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> But the language in that patent, it’s really important for our purposes, and here’s the part you have to remember: [Music starts] the patent includes the piece Peralta sold to Aughinbaugh and Chipman and it says that its western border is…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over actor:\u003c/strong> “Along the Bay of San Francisco, at the line of ordinary high tide.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> “Line of ordinary high tide.” Remember that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape:\u003c/strong> On December 7, 1941 Japan like its infamous Axis partners struck first and declared war afterward…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> World War II comes to Alameda. Within months of Japan attacking Pearl Harbor, the brand new Alameda Naval Air Station becomes the launching site of the first major bombing raid on Japan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape:\u003c/strong> The United States aircraft carrier Hornet … part of a taskforce steaming into Japanese waters is now revealed as the secret base from which American plans first bomb Tokyo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> After the war, the station continues to grow by filling in San Francisco bay with new land. So it was totally normal when the Navy claimed about 50 acres of the bay in 1956 to expand the base.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But what happens next is not normal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the Navy adds this landfill on, it crosses over the invisible line underneath the bay that marks the border between San Francisco and Alameda. Once filled in, this tiny sliver of Alameda Island is now technically in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But no one really cares that this underwater border has been breached. What people do care about is who gets paid for this land the Navy is taking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that’s when two new players enter the arena: Elinor Petersen and Carol Heche.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Gunn:\u003c/strong> Mrs. Heche … she was a leading member of a museum when it was founded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> George Gunn is the curator of the Alameda Museum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Gunn:\u003c/strong> Everybody knew that she was the granddaughter of Chipman.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> That’s William Chipman, one of the men who bought the land from Antonio Peralta to establish Alameda back in the 1850s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Gunn:\u003c/strong> That was their one claim to fame.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> It was also how Heche and Petersen claimed ownership and demanded payment from the U.S. government for the part of the bay taken by the Navy to expand the air station.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Gunn:\u003c/strong> She was very proud of their heritage and she was the historian of a family. She claimed that their property extended out into into the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> She made this claim based on the original Peralta land grant — the one given by Spain in 1820 — which she and Petersen said extended into the quote “deep waters of San Francisco Bay.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But here’s the rub. That original Spanish land grant may have talked about “deep waters,” but remember that 1874 patent? It set the borders “along the Bay of San Francisco, at the line of ordinary high tide.” High tide is not the same as deep waters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And when the women took their case to court, transcripts show the judge was only interested in the patent, the U.S. definition of the borders. Here’s one exchange between the judge and Petersen, who represented the women in court.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Actors’ voices]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Judge Alfonso Zirpoli:\u003c/strong> The only question involved is whether or not your land comes within this patent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elinor Petersen:\u003c/strong> It does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Judge Alfonso Zirpoli:\u003c/strong> If it does, you are entitled to judgment in your favor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elinor Petersen:\u003c/strong> Absolutely does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Judge Alfonso Zirpoli:\u003c/strong> If it doesn’t, you are not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elinor Petersen:\u003c/strong> It absolutely does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Judge Alfonso Zirpoli:\u003c/strong> I think it is as simple as that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elinor Petersen:\u003c/strong> It does, absolutely, every bit of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> But the judge disagrees and rules against Heche and Petersen. They appeal the case, but to no avail.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the end, the Feds do end up paying for the land. Just shy of 14-thousand dollars to California. And the women? They get nothing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Sounds of walking on gravel]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> It’s so peaceful here. And what a perfect day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> We’re back on present-day Alameda Island with our question asker Lori looking across the bay at the San Francisco skyline. And yet…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> So you’re in San Francisco now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> That’s Larry Janes. He’s with the Department of Veterans Affairs which now owns the sliver, and he’s taking us on a tour of this restricted area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> This pond that we’re looking at here, in the summertime you’ll have several hundred Caspian terns that come here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> After the Navy closed the air station in the late ’90s, it gave more than 600 acres of it to the VA to build a new hospital and national cemetery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> From the VA’s perspective it really doesn’t matter if it’s Alameda or San Francisco County it’s federal property.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> What logistics does that mean? Like for example if a crime was committed where’s the jurisdiction?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> We actually have a contract with East Bay Regional Park District Police. And we have our own VA police as well and we work with the Alameda police so if we needed backup from Alameda we could go to them as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> But San Francisco is out of the picture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> I mean they can come over if they want but it’s a little bit of a distance for them, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> Neither Alameda nor San Francisco zone the sliver and the VA has promised not to develop it because it’s home to an endangered bird species … called the California Least Tern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> In order to ensure their well-being, we had to leave them a buffer zone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> The VA is talking to the city of Alameda about putting in a recreational trail that would hug the coastline around the sliver. So maybe one day soon, you too can walk from Alameda right into San Francisco and stand on land that was disputed all the way back to the King of Spain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Theme music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> That was Bay Curious reporter, Ryan Levi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks to Lori Bodenhamer for asking this week’s question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We are sending our January newsletter out next Wednesday – that’s January 10. In it, we’ll answer a question from listener Mandy Y.: “Who put up the large letters ‘South San Francisco The Industrial City’ on a hillside over the town? Why is it there?” If you’re curious, be sure you’re subscribed to get the answer at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/bay-curious\">BayCurious.org/newsletter\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> And we’re actually in San Francisco as we are making it today but we’re on Alameda Island. It’s weird. I’m not going to get over it. It’s just weird. It’s cool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> Thanks to Jessica Placzek and ENGINEER for their work on this episode. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’re back next week with a new episode. I’ll see you then!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Maps show a small sliver of Alameda Island is part of San Francisco. Why? The answer stretches back to 1820, when California was still a part of Spain.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story first published November 1, 2018.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Lori Bodenhamer has noticed something odd whenever she pulls up a map of San Francisco online.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My little shortcut to get to Google Maps is I just type in ‘SF Map,’ and then Google pops up,” Bodenhamer says. “And it outlines S.F. in red, and I noticed there were some bits of red in Alameda.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And it’s not just Google Maps being wonky. Maps from the San Francisco Planning Department confirm that a piece of Alameda Island is inside San Francisco’s borders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To understand how this is possible, we have to go back hundreds of years to when California was part of Spain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702286\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11702286\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-800x607.jpg\" alt=\"A map from the San Francisco Planning Department shows the same geographic oddity.\" width=\"800\" height=\"607\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-800x607.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-160x121.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-1020x774.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-1200x911.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-1180x896.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-960x729.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-240x182.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-375x285.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-520x395.jpg 520w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut.jpg 1670w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A map from the San Francisco Planning Department shows the same geographic oddity. \u003ccite>(San Francisco Planning Department)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>The Peraltas\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>It starts in 1820 when the Spanish government gave Luís Maria Peralta a land grant of more than 40,000 acres in recognition of his 40 years of military service. Known as the \u003ca href=\"http://www.peraltahacienda.org/pages/main.php?pageid=69&pagecategory=3\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Rancho San Antonio\u003c/a>, it covered present-day San Leandro, Oakland, Alameda, Emeryville, Piedmont, Berkeley and Albany.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Basically, the Spanish government gave him the entire East Bay (even though Native Americans, including the Ohlone and Bay Miwok, had already been living there for centuries).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Peralta never actually lived on the Rancho, but he split the land among his four sons, who settled the land, built homes, raised cattle and fostered the growth of a thriving, Spanish-speaking community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1848, California was ceded to the United States by Mexico, and in 1850, it became a state. For existing landowners like the Peraltas, this created several headaches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>U.S. squatters settled in California without respect to who had owned the land under Spanish and Mexican rule. Squatters were such a problem that Antonio Peralta, one of Luís’ sons, was shocked in 1851 to find two men actually interested in buying some of his land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>William Chipman and Gideon Aughinbaugh bought 160 acres from Antonio in 1851 for $14,000, and they would use the land to \u003ca href=\"https://alamedamuseum.org/news-and-resources/history/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">found the city of Alameda\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Antonio still had problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The U.S. government made Spanish and Mexican landowners go to court to prove their claims, and it wasn’t until 1874 that Antonio finally received a patent from the government affirming his claim to his land, including the piece he had sold to Chipman and Aughinbaugh.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Navy pushes Alameda into San Francisco\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The story picks up in 1956 when the U.S. Navy makes an eminent domain claim of about 50 acres of submerged land underneath San Francisco Bay off the coast of Alameda. (The Navy would end up revising their request down to just shy of 40 acres.)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Navy was looking to expand the Alameda Naval Air Station, which had opened just before the start of World War II and served as the launching site for the first major bombing raid of Japan after Pearl Harbor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702298\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11702298 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-800x529.jpg\" alt=\"U.S. Navy aircraft carriers USS Hancock (CVA-19), USS Midway (CVA-41), and USS Bon Homme Richard (CVA-31) berthed at Naval Air Station Alameda in 1958.\" width=\"800\" height=\"529\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-800x529.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-1020x675.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-1200x794.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-1180x781.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-960x635.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-240x159.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-375x248.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-520x344.jpg 520w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut.jpg 1489w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">US Navy aircraft carriers USS Hancock (CVA-19), USS Midway (CVA-41), and USS Bonhomme Richard (CVA-31) berthed at Naval Air Station Alameda in 1958. \u003ccite>(U.S. Navy [Public domain], via Wikimedia Commons)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The Navy had regularly filled in parts of the bay to expand the air station, but when they did it this time, they crossed over the invisible line underneath the bay that separates Alameda from San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks to the Navy, there was now a tiny piece of San Francisco attached to Alameda Island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702301\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11702301\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-800x2485.jpg\" alt=\"A newspaper clipping detailing one of Carol Heche's other legal battles borne out of her claim to submerged land off of Alameda Island.\" width=\"800\" height=\"2485\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-800x2485.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-160x497.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-386x1200.jpg 386w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-240x746.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-375x1165.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-520x1615.jpg 520w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut.jpg 900w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A newspaper clipping detailing one of Carol Heche’s other legal battles borne out of her claim to submerged land off of Alameda Island. \u003ccite>(Newspapers.com)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But no one at the time seemed to care much about this border breach. What they did care about was who the federal government would have to pay for taking this piece of land. The state of California said it was the proper beneficiary, but two East Bay women saw it differently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Carol Heche and Elinor Petersen claimed that the submerged land actually belonged to them, and therefore they deserved payment as the descendants of the founders of Alameda — William Chipman and Gideon Aughinbaugh. Petersen said she purchased the estate of Aughinbaugh’s daughter, Ella, and Heche was Chipman’s granddaughter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She was very proud of their heritage, and she was the historian of the family,” says George Gunn, curator of the Alameda Museum, about Heche. “She claimed that their property extended out into the bay.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This was the women’s central argument. According to court records, the women traced their claim through their Alameda ancestors and back to the original Peralta land grant from the king of Spain in 1820, which was, according to them, “bounded on the southwest by the sea.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In Spanish laws, the lands bounded by the sea, are lands that extended to the deep navigable waters of the sea,” Petersen wrote in a court filing in January 1962.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This begs the question of what exactly the “deep navigable waters” included and how far out these women claimed ownership underneath San Francisco Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t know how far out I own,” Petersen said in court in August 1962, according to a transcript. “It doesn’t really make any difference, because the Federal Government is protecting it for me, and I have a fine Government and I’m not worried.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But she and Heche were certain that they owned the part of the bay the Navy had taken, and they believed fervently that their claim had been confirmed by the 1874 patent, as shown by this exchange between Petersen and Judge Alfonso Zirpoli at a pretrial hearing in December 1962:\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>ZIRPOLI: The only question involved is whether or not your land comes within this patent.\u003cbr>\nPETERSEN: It does.\u003cbr>\nZIRPOLI: If it does, you are entitled to judgment in your favor.\u003cbr>\nPETERSEN: Absolutely does.\u003cbr>\nZIRPOLI: If it doesn’t, you are not.\u003cbr>\nPETERSEN: It absolutely does.\u003cbr>\nZIRPOLI: I think it is as simple as that.\u003cbr>\nPETERSEN: It does, absolutely, every bit of it.\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>But it actually didn’t.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While the Spanish land grant may have implied ownership out into the bay’s “deep navigable waters,” the 1874 patent explicitly described the southwest border as, “… along the Bay of San Francisco, at the line of ordinary high tide.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Zirpoli ruled against the women and denied their request for a new trial. Petersen and Heche appealed the decision to the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, which also ruled against them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A boundary line at ‘ordinary high water’ or ‘ordinary high tide’ cannot, by any process of interpretation, be located somewhere on or under the surface of the water a mile or more from the line of high tide or high water,” the appeals court wrote \u003ca href=\"https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/263062/elinor-e-petersen-carol-e-heche-and-51424-acres-of-land-more-or-less/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">in its February 1964 decision\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A year later, the federal government cut the state of California a check for $13,619.55 for the submerged land it had claimed nearly a decade earlier. And Heche and Petersen walked away empty-handed.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Who you gonna call: San Francisco or Alameda?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702307\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11702307\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"A view across the water of San Francisco ... from San Francisco on Alameda Island. It's trippy, right?\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-1200x900.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-1180x885.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-960x720.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-240x180.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-375x281.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-520x390.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A view across the water of San Francisco … from San Francisco on Alameda Island. It’s trippy, right? \u003ccite>(Ryan Levi/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>After the Alameda Naval Air Station closed in 1997, the Navy began transferring the land to different entities. In 2014, the Department of Veterans Affairs agreed to take over 624 acres, including the border-crossing sliver.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“From the VA’s perspective, it really doesn’t matter if it’s Alameda or San Francisco County. It’s federal property,” says Larry Janes, who’s overseeing the development of a new VA hospital and national cemetery on the former naval base.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Neither San Francisco nor Alameda zone the geographic oddity — which spans about 30 acres — and the VA has promised never to develop that part of the land because it’s home to an endangered bird species, the California least tern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s currently no regular public access to that part of the former base, but our Bay Curious question asker, Lori, couldn’t help but wonder what would happen if a crime was committed out there. Whose jurisdiction would it fall under?\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702306\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11702306\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"Bay Curious listener Lori Bodenhamer talks with Larry Janes of the Department of Veterans' Affairs about the piece of Alameda Island, now owned by the VA, that crosses over into San Francisco.\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-1200x900.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-1180x885.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-960x720.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-240x180.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-375x281.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-520x390.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bay Curious listener Lori Bodenhamer talks with Larry Janes of the Department of Veterans Affairs about the piece of Alameda Island, now owned by the VA, that crosses over into San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Olivia Allen-Price/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We actually have a contract with East Bay Regional Park District police,” Janes says. “And we have our own VA police as well, and we work with the Alameda police, so if we needed backup from Alameda, we could go to them as well.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Janes says the VA is talking to the city of Alameda about putting in a recreational trail that would hug the coastline around the sliver, so sometime in the future, anyone could walk from Alameda right into San Francisco and stand on land that was disputed all the way back to the king of Spain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> We start today’s episode on a beautiful, clear and sunny day back in 2018.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> Could you tell us where have we brought you today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> We’re on the western side of Alameda Island and we’re very close to … I see the Port of Oakland. We’re in the Hanger One Vodka Area. I think it’s called Spirits Vodka now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> I’m standing in front of a giant sign that says “Warning Restricted Area: Authorized Personnel Only” with this week’s question asker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> My name is Lori Bodenhamer. I’ve lived in San Francisco for about 20 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> We’ve come to Alameda to check out a peculiar piece of land that Lori noticed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> My little shortcut to get to the Google Maps — I just type in “SF Map,” and then Google pops up and it outlines San Francisco in red and noticed there were some bits of red in Alameda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> The border of San Francisco should be simple. You’ve got water on three sides and a straight line along the southern edge. But … not so!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> I wondered why there’s a little sliver of San Francisco on the western edge of Alameda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Theme music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> This is Bay Curious, the show where we answer your questions about the Bay Area. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Today we travel from 19th century Spanish California to a World War II-era Navy station in Alameda. All to figure out why the heck San Francisco has jumped the bay. This episode first aired in 2018 and we’re reairing it today because it tells one of the wackier histories of land ownership we’ve found. Stick around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We asked Bay Curious reporter Ryan Levi to tackle this one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> It looks like a little right triangle, just a 30-some acre sliver at the very western tip of Alameda Island. It’s all the way across the bay from San Francisco, but somehow, it’s still a part of S-F.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And honestly, I thought figuring out how that was possible would be pretty easy. Just call someone up at the city and get the answer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I start calling people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I try the City Administrator’s office \u003cem>[sound of voicemail]\u003c/em>. They don’t know and say I should email the Department of Real Estate \u003cem>[typing]\u003c/em>. They’ve also got nothing. So I reach out to the Department of Public Works where finally we have a breakthrough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I get a tip about a court case from 1964 that’s somehow connected to our sliver, but records from that far back aren’t going to be digitized so my only option is to go find it for myself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> Are you where I check in?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Front desk worker:\u003c/strong> Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> The National Archives Building in San Bruno is kind of hidden away behind the Tanforan mall and a housing development. I expected it to be kind of dungeon-y, but it’s got lots of windows and natural light and wooden tables set up for researchers. Feels like a library.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>National Archives worker:\u003c/strong> This is case 35276.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> They set me up at one of the tables with this gray file box filled with three folders bursting with documents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>National Archives worker:\u003c/strong> Looks like it’s oversized maps and stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And when I start going through them all, I realize that this case goes back a lot further than I thought. All the way back to when California was part of Spain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It starts in 1820 with a guy named Luís Maria Peralta.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/strong> He served as a soldier for the Spanish government.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> Dennis Evanosky is the publisher of the Alameda Sun newspaper and until recently was the president of the Alameda Museum. He says Peralta caught the attention of the Spanish government when he secured the release of a group of priests who had been kidnapped from Mission San Jose and taken to the Central Valley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/strong> As a thank you gift, he got a land grant that stretched all the way from El Cerrito down to San Leandro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> Basically they give him the entire East Bay, even though Native Americans like the Ohlone and Bay Miwok had already been living there for centuries. But Spain gives Peralta the land, which he then splits among his sons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fast forward 31 years. California is now part of the United States and one of Peralta’s sons, Antonio, is looking to unload some of his land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/strong> Antonio was delighted to find out that there were actually Americans that were willing to pay him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> This was because squatting was a big problem in the state’s early days … so Peralta was thrilled when two men…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/strong> William Worthington Chipman and Gideon Aughinbaugh.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> Made an offer on 160 acres of Peralta’s land where they established the town of Alameda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Peralta had a problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His land was in the U.S. now and it would take the government more than 20 years to recognize his claim with a patent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/strong> Unfortunately, by then yes the land would have belonged to him had he not sold a lot of it. And also by then Aughinbaugh and Chipman were both gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> So Peralta, Chipman and Aughinbaugh had all left Alameda by the time the government finally got around to affirming Peralta’s claim in 1874 and issuing him that patent for the land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over actor:\u003c/strong> Now Know ye, that the United States of America in consideration of the premises \u003cem>[voice fades out]\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> But the language in that patent, it’s really important for our purposes, and here’s the part you have to remember: [Music starts] the patent includes the piece Peralta sold to Aughinbaugh and Chipman and it says that its western border is…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over actor:\u003c/strong> “Along the Bay of San Francisco, at the line of ordinary high tide.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> “Line of ordinary high tide.” Remember that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape:\u003c/strong> On December 7, 1941 Japan like its infamous Axis partners struck first and declared war afterward…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> World War II comes to Alameda. Within months of Japan attacking Pearl Harbor, the brand new Alameda Naval Air Station becomes the launching site of the first major bombing raid on Japan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape:\u003c/strong> The United States aircraft carrier Hornet … part of a taskforce steaming into Japanese waters is now revealed as the secret base from which American plans first bomb Tokyo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> After the war, the station continues to grow by filling in San Francisco bay with new land. So it was totally normal when the Navy claimed about 50 acres of the bay in 1956 to expand the base.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But what happens next is not normal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the Navy adds this landfill on, it crosses over the invisible line underneath the bay that marks the border between San Francisco and Alameda. Once filled in, this tiny sliver of Alameda Island is now technically in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But no one really cares that this underwater border has been breached. What people do care about is who gets paid for this land the Navy is taking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that’s when two new players enter the arena: Elinor Petersen and Carol Heche.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Gunn:\u003c/strong> Mrs. Heche … she was a leading member of a museum when it was founded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> George Gunn is the curator of the Alameda Museum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Gunn:\u003c/strong> Everybody knew that she was the granddaughter of Chipman.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> That’s William Chipman, one of the men who bought the land from Antonio Peralta to establish Alameda back in the 1850s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Gunn:\u003c/strong> That was their one claim to fame.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> It was also how Heche and Petersen claimed ownership and demanded payment from the U.S. government for the part of the bay taken by the Navy to expand the air station.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Gunn:\u003c/strong> She was very proud of their heritage and she was the historian of a family. She claimed that their property extended out into into the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> She made this claim based on the original Peralta land grant — the one given by Spain in 1820 — which she and Petersen said extended into the quote “deep waters of San Francisco Bay.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But here’s the rub. That original Spanish land grant may have talked about “deep waters,” but remember that 1874 patent? It set the borders “along the Bay of San Francisco, at the line of ordinary high tide.” High tide is not the same as deep waters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And when the women took their case to court, transcripts show the judge was only interested in the patent, the U.S. definition of the borders. Here’s one exchange between the judge and Petersen, who represented the women in court.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Actors’ voices]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Judge Alfonso Zirpoli:\u003c/strong> The only question involved is whether or not your land comes within this patent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elinor Petersen:\u003c/strong> It does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Judge Alfonso Zirpoli:\u003c/strong> If it does, you are entitled to judgment in your favor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elinor Petersen:\u003c/strong> Absolutely does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Judge Alfonso Zirpoli:\u003c/strong> If it doesn’t, you are not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elinor Petersen:\u003c/strong> It absolutely does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Judge Alfonso Zirpoli:\u003c/strong> I think it is as simple as that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elinor Petersen:\u003c/strong> It does, absolutely, every bit of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> But the judge disagrees and rules against Heche and Petersen. They appeal the case, but to no avail.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the end, the Feds do end up paying for the land. Just shy of 14-thousand dollars to California. And the women? They get nothing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Sounds of walking on gravel]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> It’s so peaceful here. And what a perfect day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> We’re back on present-day Alameda Island with our question asker Lori looking across the bay at the San Francisco skyline. And yet…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> So you’re in San Francisco now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> That’s Larry Janes. He’s with the Department of Veterans Affairs which now owns the sliver, and he’s taking us on a tour of this restricted area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> This pond that we’re looking at here, in the summertime you’ll have several hundred Caspian terns that come here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> After the Navy closed the air station in the late ’90s, it gave more than 600 acres of it to the VA to build a new hospital and national cemetery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> From the VA’s perspective it really doesn’t matter if it’s Alameda or San Francisco County it’s federal property.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> What logistics does that mean? Like for example if a crime was committed where’s the jurisdiction?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> We actually have a contract with East Bay Regional Park District Police. And we have our own VA police as well and we work with the Alameda police so if we needed backup from Alameda we could go to them as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> But San Francisco is out of the picture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> I mean they can come over if they want but it’s a little bit of a distance for them, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> Neither Alameda nor San Francisco zone the sliver and the VA has promised not to develop it because it’s home to an endangered bird species … called the California Least Tern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> In order to ensure their well-being, we had to leave them a buffer zone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> The VA is talking to the city of Alameda about putting in a recreational trail that would hug the coastline around the sliver. So maybe one day soon, you too can walk from Alameda right into San Francisco and stand on land that was disputed all the way back to the King of Spain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Theme music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> That was Bay Curious reporter, Ryan Levi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks to Lori Bodenhamer for asking this week’s question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We are sending our January newsletter out next Wednesday – that’s January 10. In it, we’ll answer a question from listener Mandy Y.: “Who put up the large letters ‘South San Francisco The Industrial City’ on a hillside over the town? Why is it there?” If you’re curious, be sure you’re subscribed to get the answer at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/bay-curious\">BayCurious.org/newsletter\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> And we’re actually in San Francisco as we are making it today but we’re on Alameda Island. It’s weird. I’m not going to get over it. It’s just weird. It’s cool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> Thanks to Jessica Placzek and ENGINEER for their work on this episode. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’re back next week with a new episode. I’ll see you then!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>Bay Curious, KQED’s podcast that explores the Bay Area’s unique local legends, interesting landmarks and uncovered histories, is inviting listeners to take off their headphones and take a walk in a park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On Nov. 4 and 5, our journalists will take small groups on guided tours of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.aidsmemorial.org/\">National AIDS Memorial Grove in Golden Gate Park\u003c/a>, where they’ll tell stories about the formation of the memorial, known as The Grove. Along the way, there will be performances reflecting on the people who are remembered in the space.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Overall, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, human immunodeficiency virus, or HIV, has declined in the United States by 6% since 2010. But there’s been an escalation of new infections — 14% — in the Latinx community, particularly among gay and bisexual men. According to 2019 data from the CDC, Hispanic Americans \u003ca href=\"https://minorityhealth.hhs.gov/hivaids-and-hispanic-americans#:~:text=Hispanic%20Americans%20accounted%20for%20almost,as%20compared%20to%20white%20males.\">accounted for almost 30% of new HIV infections\u003c/a> while making up only about 18% of the country’s population.[pullquote align=\"right\" size=\"medium\" citation=\"Francisco Buchting, Horizons Foundation\"]‘When HIV first started, it was the ‘gay cancer,’ Even in the present, it continues — homophobia — in parts of our community.’[/pullquote]In California, about 40% of residents identify as Hispanic or Latino, according to \u003ca href=\"https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/CA/PST045222\">U.S. Census Bureau data\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Francisco Buchting, vice president of grants, programs and communications at Horizons Foundation, which invests in LGBTQ nonprofits, told KQED there is a stigma about HIV in the Latinx community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When HIV first started, it was the ‘gay cancer,’” he said. “Even in the present, it continues — homophobia — in parts of our community.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the 1980s, the face of the HIV movement was white, gay men. That, consequently, often left minorities absent from research literature, outreach initiatives and early treatment. In addition to homophobia, the entrenched religious beliefs in the Latinx diaspora contributed to the stigmatization of HIV.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Moral judgments about male same-gender relationships and fears of contagion dominated the public religious response during the first five or six years of the HIV epidemic, according to the National Center for Biotechnology Information. Additionally, the cultural value of machismo \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/docs/factsheets/cdc-hiv-latinos-508.pdf\">may create reluctance to acknowledge risky behaviors\u003c/a> such as male-to-male sexual contact or substance misuse, according to the CDC.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Esperanza Macias, policy and communications director with the Instituto Familiar de La Raza, a San Francisco organization that promotes health in the Latino community, said gay Latin men often had to combat living outside of the stereotypes of being a dominant alpha male because they would face harassment and assault.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of men met in areas that ended up not being safe. That was the only way that they were able to explore their sexuality,” Macias said. “And, unfortunately, it was an unsafe way. And because they weren’t able to share that with their partners, oftentimes, their partners would also get HIV.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]The 2019 CDC data found that both Hispanic men and women were four times as likely to have AIDS — the condition caused by HIV — as compared to white men and women. It also found that Hispanic men were twice as likely to die of HIV infection than non-Hispanic white men, while Hispanic women were three times as likely to die than non-Hispanic white women.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Buchting told KQED that a growing shift in recent decades to abstinence-only sex education in the U.S. and Latin America, fueled by conservatism and religion, complicated HIV prevention efforts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think within the religion piece, especially in the space that I fund internationally, we look at religious fundamentalism as one of the driving forces for this — [the] safe, secure, legal access to comprehensive reproductive rights, including abortion or LGBTI rights,” he added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Macias, who has worked to teach youth of color about sexually transmitted diseases like HIV, said the push for abstinence messaging wasn’t good for the health of young people who have hormones and are naturally curious.[aside label=\"related coverage\" tag=\"aids\"]“It was a matter of exposing people to the concepts and to the importance and recognizing that it was much more a health issue than an issue of religion,” Macias said, referring to sex education. “It was not a tradeoff between promiscuity and other negative characteristics associated with sex education. It was really a matter of being a critical health issue — that it was important for young men and young women.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Social and economic factors, like poverty, racial discrimination and lack of access to health care, can increase the risks of HIV, according to the CDC. But language barriers, low academic achievement and mistrust of the health care system may also affect the quality of HIV care many Latinos receive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are also several studies that indicate HIV-infected undocumented immigrants enter care at a more advanced stage than others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If you’re undocumented, you may not be as comfortable responding to surveys for a host of reasons,” Buchting said. “When I was working in HIV in LA, especially a lot of the Latino patients that I saw, they were accessing services much later, compared to the non-Latino patients. And their HIV had progressed to the point that sometimes the first encounter with them was already an AIDS diagnosis as opposed to an HIV infection.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Undocumented people also face unique barriers to receiving necessary care, including stigmatization, high levels of acculturation stress, and fear of deportation, according to the National Institutes of Health. Many also have very limited access to health care coverage and are ineligible to enroll in federally-funded health care programs like Medicaid and Medicare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Buchting said that compared to decades ago, there are now many more treatment options for HIV, which is currently viewed as a chronic medical illness that can be managed. Research on HIV has progressed significantly since the 1980s, he noted, including HIV prevention medication like pre-exposure prophylaxis, commonly known as PrEP, which reduces the risk of HIV from sex by 99%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Now, as HIV is evolving and less at the forefront, we’re looking at what other ways [we can] partner,” Macias said about Instituto Familiar de La Raza. “Then, if our focus is not so much on saving the LGBT Latino community from a fatal disease, what can we do to support their wellness now? And I feel like that’s a wonderful thing to witness.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>More than 100,000 Latinos have died since the start of the HIV/AIDS epidemic, according to a 2016 CDC report. Buchting says the work being done at the organizational level is made to honor those who passed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We know that, hopefully, one day, there’ll be a cure, but until then, continue to work to help those infected and those that are living with it,” he said. “And try to do as much prevention as we can.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Guided tours of the National AIDS Memorial Grove in Golden Gate Park are from 1–3 p.m. Nov. 4 and 5. Space is limited. Tickets cost $25. For more information and to register, visit \u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/event/3582\">\u003ci>kqed.org\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>. \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>In California, about 40% of residents identify as Hispanic or Latino, according to \u003ca href=\"https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/CA/PST045222\">U.S. Census Bureau data\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Francisco Buchting, vice president of grants, programs and communications at Horizons Foundation, which invests in LGBTQ nonprofits, told KQED there is a stigma about HIV in the Latinx community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When HIV first started, it was the ‘gay cancer,’” he said. “Even in the present, it continues — homophobia — in parts of our community.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the 1980s, the face of the HIV movement was white, gay men. That, consequently, often left minorities absent from research literature, outreach initiatives and early treatment. In addition to homophobia, the entrenched religious beliefs in the Latinx diaspora contributed to the stigmatization of HIV.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Moral judgments about male same-gender relationships and fears of contagion dominated the public religious response during the first five or six years of the HIV epidemic, according to the National Center for Biotechnology Information. Additionally, the cultural value of machismo \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/docs/factsheets/cdc-hiv-latinos-508.pdf\">may create reluctance to acknowledge risky behaviors\u003c/a> such as male-to-male sexual contact or substance misuse, according to the CDC.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Esperanza Macias, policy and communications director with the Instituto Familiar de La Raza, a San Francisco organization that promotes health in the Latino community, said gay Latin men often had to combat living outside of the stereotypes of being a dominant alpha male because they would face harassment and assault.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of men met in areas that ended up not being safe. That was the only way that they were able to explore their sexuality,” Macias said. “And, unfortunately, it was an unsafe way. And because they weren’t able to share that with their partners, oftentimes, their partners would also get HIV.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>The 2019 CDC data found that both Hispanic men and women were four times as likely to have AIDS — the condition caused by HIV — as compared to white men and women. It also found that Hispanic men were twice as likely to die of HIV infection than non-Hispanic white men, while Hispanic women were three times as likely to die than non-Hispanic white women.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Buchting told KQED that a growing shift in recent decades to abstinence-only sex education in the U.S. and Latin America, fueled by conservatism and religion, complicated HIV prevention efforts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think within the religion piece, especially in the space that I fund internationally, we look at religious fundamentalism as one of the driving forces for this — [the] safe, secure, legal access to comprehensive reproductive rights, including abortion or LGBTI rights,” he added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Macias, who has worked to teach youth of color about sexually transmitted diseases like HIV, said the push for abstinence messaging wasn’t good for the health of young people who have hormones and are naturally curious.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“It was a matter of exposing people to the concepts and to the importance and recognizing that it was much more a health issue than an issue of religion,” Macias said, referring to sex education. “It was not a tradeoff between promiscuity and other negative characteristics associated with sex education. It was really a matter of being a critical health issue — that it was important for young men and young women.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Social and economic factors, like poverty, racial discrimination and lack of access to health care, can increase the risks of HIV, according to the CDC. But language barriers, low academic achievement and mistrust of the health care system may also affect the quality of HIV care many Latinos receive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are also several studies that indicate HIV-infected undocumented immigrants enter care at a more advanced stage than others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If you’re undocumented, you may not be as comfortable responding to surveys for a host of reasons,” Buchting said. “When I was working in HIV in LA, especially a lot of the Latino patients that I saw, they were accessing services much later, compared to the non-Latino patients. And their HIV had progressed to the point that sometimes the first encounter with them was already an AIDS diagnosis as opposed to an HIV infection.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Undocumented people also face unique barriers to receiving necessary care, including stigmatization, high levels of acculturation stress, and fear of deportation, according to the National Institutes of Health. Many also have very limited access to health care coverage and are ineligible to enroll in federally-funded health care programs like Medicaid and Medicare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Buchting said that compared to decades ago, there are now many more treatment options for HIV, which is currently viewed as a chronic medical illness that can be managed. Research on HIV has progressed significantly since the 1980s, he noted, including HIV prevention medication like pre-exposure prophylaxis, commonly known as PrEP, which reduces the risk of HIV from sex by 99%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Now, as HIV is evolving and less at the forefront, we’re looking at what other ways [we can] partner,” Macias said about Instituto Familiar de La Raza. “Then, if our focus is not so much on saving the LGBT Latino community from a fatal disease, what can we do to support their wellness now? And I feel like that’s a wonderful thing to witness.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>More than 100,000 Latinos have died since the start of the HIV/AIDS epidemic, according to a 2016 CDC report. Buchting says the work being done at the organizational level is made to honor those who passed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We know that, hopefully, one day, there’ll be a cure, but until then, continue to work to help those infected and those that are living with it,” he said. “And try to do as much prevention as we can.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Guided tours of the National AIDS Memorial Grove in Golden Gate Park are from 1–3 p.m. Nov. 4 and 5. Space is limited. Tickets cost $25. For more information and to register, visit \u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/event/3582\">\u003ci>kqed.org\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>. \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To understand the Winchester Mystery House – and how it came to be – you have to understand the woman behind it. KQED’s Boo Curious (also known as Bay Curious) takes us inside to do just that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC9473873386&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode of Boo Curious\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11963206/after-100-years-the-mysteries-of-the-winchester-house-endure\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> first published Oct. 5, 2023\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To understand the Winchester Mystery House – and how it came to be – you have to understand the woman behind it. KQED’s Boo Curious (also known as Bay Curious) takes us inside to do just that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC9473873386&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode of Boo Curious\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11963206/after-100-years-the-mysteries-of-the-winchester-house-endure\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> first published Oct. 5, 2023\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "Cashing In on the Future of California's Bottle Deposit System",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>Read a transcript of this episode\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Paul Beach was a kid growing up in Maine, he remembers going to a recycling center that was part of a grocery store. He watched people walk into this large space with garbage bags full of bottles and cans. And when he noticed they were walking out with cash, he wanted in on the hustle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I would have like $50 in cans. It took me a while to get that much, but it was pretty good income for, like, a 10-year-old,” Beach said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maine and California are two states with \u003ca href=\"https://www.bottlebill.org/index.php/current-and-proposed-laws/usa/california\">a Bottle Bill\u003c/a>, a law that encourages recycling for money. When Beach moved to California, where he’s lived for the past 25 years, he looked up the closest redemption center to him in Oakland and discovered it was 5 miles away. A place called Cash for Cans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Beach, it’s not worth storing several bags of containers in his apartment for a single trip. Instead, he puts his recyclables in the blue bin on the street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This experience had him wondering: Where does the money go for bottle-and-can redemption if residents don’t turn them into a recycling center? And why is it so hard to recycle them in the first place?\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Bottle Bill\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The money Beach is talking about is the California Redemption Value, or CRV — and it’s not exactly free. Whenever someone buys a drink from the store with the letters CRV printed on the label, they’re paying a 5-to-10-cent deposit at the checkout line. To get that deposit back, they have to recycle those containers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This applies mostly to beverages that come in aluminum cans and plastic bottles. The whole point is to encourage recycling and reduce litter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1986, the state passed the California Beverage Container Recycling and Litter Reduction Act, also known as the Bottle Bill. The law created the recycling deposit system many use today. California is also one of 10 states in the country with a Bottle Bill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Susan V. Collins, president of the Container Recycling Institute in Culver City, calls Bottle Bills “the rock stars of recycling” because of the financial incentive behind them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]“People either hold onto their bottle and turn it in for the 5 cents, or if they do litter it, someone else picks it up and takes it in for recycling,” Collins said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since passing its Bottle Bill, California has had a good track record with the number of recycled and redeemed containers. One out of five beverage containers recycled in the U.S. \u003ca href=\"https://www.bottlebill.org/index.php/current-and-proposed-laws/usa/california\">are recycled in California\u003c/a>, according to the Container Recycling Institute.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But recycling containers isn’t the same as redeeming them for cash. As redemption centers closed across the state, Californians were left with fewer options to redeem their bottles and cans. According to CRI, the state’s redemption rates have fallen from 74% to 60% in the past decade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11962004\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2023/09/21/cashing-in-on-californias-broken-bottle-deposit-system/bottles-ready-to-be-recycled-at-the-recycling-center-at-church-on-market-streets-in-san-francisco-calif-on-friday-august-9-2013-safeway-is-going-to-shut-down-its-recyling-center-here-by-septemb/\" rel=\"attachment wp-att-11962004\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11962004\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"two bins of glass bottles and cans\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bottles ready to be recycled at the recycling center at Church and Market streets in San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Liz Hafalia/The San Francisco Chronicle via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Redemption center deserts\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>When the Bottle Bill was passed in the 1980s it depended on California’s current recycling center infrastructure. Recycling centers were now obligated to give people back their money for bottles and cans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Most of these businesses created partnerships with grocery stores to establish convenience for consumers looking for a place to recycle. They set up shop in the parking lots of a store much like the one from Beach’s childhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But when revenue started to plummet at these locations because of the falling price of scrap material, many shuttered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since 2013, more than 40% of \u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/cash-in-the-can-californias-recycling-run-around/2055057/\">these recycling centers\u003c/a> have closed across the state. Collins said the Bay Area is the epicenter of these closures affecting a majority of people who depend on these centers for extra income.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“California has the least convenient system in the world right now because of these redemption deserts,” Collins said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the ’90s, San Francisco once had about 35 redemption centers scattered throughout the city. Today, there are only two and both are located in the Bayview District. CalRecycle \u003ca href=\"https://www2.calrecycle.ca.gov/BevContainer/RecyclingCenters/\">lists about 1,200 redemption centers\u003c/a> left in the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Abandoned deposits\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>When bottles and cans end up in landfills and not redeemed, those deposits are considered “unclaimed” by the state. This unclaimed money sits in the Beverage Container Fund, which is managed by CalRecycle. About 400 people in the state agency who work in the beverage container program are paid out of unclaimed deposits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The money is supposed to be used to subsidize the state’s recycling infrastructure to help people get their money back. But for the most part, it stays untouched in the beverage container fund.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[pullquote size=\"medium\" align=\"right\" citation=\"Susan V. Collins, president, Container Recycling Institute\"]‘California has the least convenient system in the world right now because of these redemption deserts.’[/pullquote]Some of the unclaimed deposits are paid out to redemption centers, but not a whole lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In California, where many rely on blue recycling bins, waste hauling companies get to cash in on the CRV money attached to those bottles and cans thrown out. Collins said only a small percentage of those recyclables are redeemed because waste haulers don’t always do a perfect job of sorting through the recycling. Inevitably, a lot of it ends up in landfill. Last year, only 13% were redeemed for CRV.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Collins said, as of last summer, the beverage container fund accumulated $672 million. She indicated that the high balance was a partial failure on behalf of the program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Consumer advocates argue that redemption center closures and allowing waste haulers to take residents’ CRV is hurting consumers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s turned into a tax because we don’t have any place to take those bottles and cans to get those dimes and nickels back. That’s the fundamental problem,” said Liza Tucker, consumer advocate for Consumer Watchdog.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She added that working-class communities who \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11714223/when-recycling-pays-and-when-it-doesnt\">depend on recycling to pay bills\u003c/a> are hurting the most.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They actually need cash. They need to fill their tanks with gas. They need to buy food,” Tucker said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The in-lieu-fee loophole\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Under the Bottle Bill, retailers that sell beverages are required to recycle those beverages if there’s no recycling center nearby. The law was designed for the sake of convenience. But California’s Bottle Bill gives stores the option of paying out of their responsibility to recycle and redeem drink containers. This is known as the “in-lieu fee,” a penalty in lieu of redeeming empty containers — a $100 fee for each day the store is not taking back recyclables.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In some cases, stores \u003ca href=\"https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/10/business/cvs-3-6-million-fine-california-recycling-trnd/index.html#:~:text=California%20is%20slapping%20CVS%20with,its%20residents%2C%20the%20state%20said\">try to get away with not paying the in-lieu fees at all\u003c/a>. In response, CalRecycle Director Rachel Machi Wagoner said, “It’s incredibly hard to ensure that retailers who say they are taking back in store or are paying the in-lieu fee, are doing exactly what they’re saying.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11962006\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2023/09/21/cashing-in-on-californias-broken-bottle-deposit-system/customers-line-up-to-have-bottles-and-cans-weighed-before-they-receive-a-cash-payment-at-the-our-planet-recycling-collection-center-on-bayshore-boulevard-in-san-francisco-calif-on-thursday-aug-3-2/\" rel=\"attachment wp-att-11962006\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11962006\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"people lined up outside a recycling center with trash bags full of recyclable bottles and cans\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1722\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-800x538.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-1020x686.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-160x108.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-1536x1033.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-2048x1377.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-1920x1291.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Customers line up to have bottles and cans weighed before they receive a cash payment at the Our Planet Recycling collection center on Bayshore Boulevard in San Francisco in 2017. Independent recycling centers are struggling to stay open saying the state subsidies aren’t enough to keep them in business. \u003ccite>(Paul Chinn/The San Francisco Chronicle via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Lawmakers know the system isn’t working\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 2019, the state put aside $5 million to pilot new ways to recycle and redeem our bottles and cans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of those pilot programs is called \u003ca href=\"https://sfbottlebank.org/\">BottleBank\u003c/a> in San Francisco. After downloading the app, consumers drop off their containers to any BottleBank mobile drop-off location and then their recyclables get taken to an offsite recycling center for sorting. The CRV is tallied up and the money is electronically delivered to the person’s bank account.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Our ultimate goal for CRV is to rapidly increase how many people are redeeming. … getting more money back into people’s pockets,” said Charles Sheehan, chief policy and public affairs officer with San Francisco’s Department of the Environment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since the program kicked off last year, Sheehan said the department recycled more than 3 million bottles and cans and paid out about $190,000 in CRV as of this summer. There are currently \u003ca href=\"https://sfbottlebank.org/locations/\">20 BottleBank sites\u003c/a> set up around the city with many found parked outside Safeway, Whole Foods and Grocery Outlet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousbug]Consumer advocates, however, aren’t happy with the program, saying the pilot is benefiting supermarkets more than consumers. CalRecycle lists the BottleBank sites on its website as certified recycling centers. Under the Bottle Bill, grocery stores within a certain mile radius of a recycling center don’t have to pay in-lieu fees or take back in store.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So the minute that they approved this particular pilot, 400 stores got off the hook,” Tucker of Consumer Watchdog said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Consumer Watchdog added that BottleBank is not recycling enough, because the sites are only open one day out of the week for several hours a day and the program is costing taxpayers too much to operate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After analyzing BottleBank’s expenses, Consumer Watchdog asked the state’s Department of Finance to no longer fund the program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is costing 79 cents to return a nickel to consumers. And it will never be sustainable,” it said in \u003ca href=\"https://consumerwatchdog.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/LtrBottleBankStephenshaw6-19-23.pdf\">a statement (PDF)\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In defense of the program, Sheehan stressed that it’s still in the pilot phase, which means making improvements while incurring costs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re growing, and as we grow we will continue to kind of bring in more revenues and bring our revenues in line with our costs,” Sheehan said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BottleBank’s costs include renting the grocery store parking lot space for its operations, plus labor, marketing materials and transportation for the bottles and cans to the recycling facility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to CalRecycle, the state awarded the program $500,000 to expand their services to last until the end of the year. Sheehan said the goal is to get a total of 30 locations running with longer operating hours.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A new law could change it all\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Other Bottle Bill states like Oregon have a higher redemption rate of 85%. The state has multiple ways to redeem items using reverse vending machines, bag drop programs and in-store take back. The state also utilizes the same app-based technology as BottleBank for consumers to receive their CRV electronically. They can also get a voucher to use at their local grocery store.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Starting in 2025, it’s possible that California can start looking more like Oregon. SB 1013 passed last year and it will require grocery stores with no nearby recycling centers to be responsible for taking back empty beverage containers starting in January 2025. It also removes the optional $100-a-day in-lieu fee and adds wine and spirits to the list of redemption items.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s considered one of the biggest improvements to the Bottle Bill ever. CalRecycle’s Director, Rachel Wagoner, added that the machinery to build this infrastructure will not be cheap.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So if the state’s gonna purchase it, we wanna make sure that that is a long-term investment that we’re making in the recycling system,” Wagoner said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>CalRecycle is giving out more than $70 million in grant money to large grocery store chains to create this infrastructure. The agency is currently having public workshops with retailers to answer questions about the grant process. The idea is to create large-scale redemption centers with multiple ways to recycle items, while increasing the state’s redemption rate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, Wagoner is optimistic that the new law will make a real difference in the number of redeemed containers. And she’s hopeful for 100% redemption.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And even if I don’t hit 100%, let’s see how close we can get,” Wagoner said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Collins said her organization, the Container Recycling Institute, first advocated for these changes in 2009. She added that if everything goes according to plan California could have a good system in place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Yet Collins is skeptical about how fast those changes will come. She pointed out that multiple spending programs, and an additional budget bill, passed along with the new law may exceed the resources in the Beverage Container Fund to create the redemption infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.container-recycling.org/images/2023/CRI_CalRecycle_budget_questions_Sen_06132023.pdf\">In a letter (PDF)\u003c/a> asking the state’s Senate Budget Committee to reconsider how they spend the money, Collins wrote, “The complete implementation of AB 179 and SB 1013 over 6 years will cost the beverage container fund and other accounts roughly $1.3 billion.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We can’t have money going outta the fund to pay for things that are not bottles and cans when that money is needed to give people their nickels and dimes back,” said Collins.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When Paul Beach was a kid growing up in Maine, he would go to this recycling center that was part of a grocery store. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Beach:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was a pretty big space in the grocery store. And you just bring your bottles and cans in. and they sorted them, like green bottles went here, white bottles went there, brown bottles went here.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Paul noticed that people would walk into the recycling center with a bag of … well, garbage, essentially. And they would walk out with \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">cash\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. He wanted in on the hustle.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I would have, like $50 in cans. It took me a while to get that much, but it was pretty good income for like a 10 year old.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That experience taught Paul the literal value of recycling. Every bottle or can was worth up to fifteen cents in Maine because of the state’s\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> bottle bill\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. That’s a law designed to encourage recycling. When Paul moved to California, where we \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">also\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> have a bottle bill, he thought things would work about the same…but his nearest redemption center was far, so he never went … Now, he puts his items on the curb where they’re whisked away by a waste hauling company.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I am pretty sure that the company that I pay to take the recycling fishes through and gets all the cans and they get the money for the cans and bottles. // like, you’re getting paid on both sides. It’s like, this just doesn’t seem fair.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This has all left him wondering about a few things…\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Where does the money go for bottle and can redemption if we don’t bring the bottles and cans back?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why is it so hard to find a place to recycle them in the first place?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music change\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In today’s episode of Bay Curious we dig into how this recycling system works and why some argue it’s seriously broken. Plus: Who’s pocketing the CRV money from California’s unclaimed bottles and cans? I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious. We’ll be right back.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> To answer Paul’s questions about bottle and can redemption in California … KQED’s Steven Rascón has been following the money. Hey Steven!\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey Olivia.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Paul’s question is all about CRV. Can you explain what exactly that is?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sure. CRV stands for California Redemption Value. And it applies to certain bottled and canned drinks you buy from the store. Anytime you buy one of these beverages with the letters CRV engraved on the lid or printed on the label, you’re paying 5-10 cents extra at the checkout line. Paying this extra charge is supposed to work like a deposit. Because once we’re done with that drink, we’re supposed to recycle it and get back those 10 cents.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And this applies specifically to store-bought beverages… so containers of juice, coffee, water, soda …?\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. This recycling system is part of a law that’s colloquially known as the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bottle Bill\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. We are one of ten states in the country with a Bottle Bill. Beverage containers specifically, continue to make up roughly half of roadside litter across the country. And so in the 80’s, environmentalists and lawmakers decided to do something about it in California… and pass the Bottle Bill. And recycling experts say this system works.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan Collins:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We know that bottle bills on average, reduce beverage container litter by 50%. So we can keep some of those plastics outta the ocean if we have bottle bills in place. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Susan Collins, she’s the head of the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Container Recycling Institute\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> in Culver City California. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The whole reason bottle bills work like magic, why I call them the rock stars of recycling, is because of the incentive that’s attached to it. because people either hold onto their bottle and turn it in for the 5 cents, or if they do litter it, someone else picks it up and takes it in for recycling.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Since California passed its Bottle Bill, the number of recycled containers has shot up. The Container Recycling Institute says one out of five beverage containers recycled in the US are being recycled in California. But…not all of those bottles and cans are getting redeemed for cash. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And when that happens…that money just stays in what’s called the beverage container fund. A fund that’s owned by the state.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is the unclaimed money in that fund used for? \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So the unclaimed deposits from those containers, the money \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">that no one’s getting\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> belongs to the state. CalRecycle is the state agency that manages the fund and the program. Susan says there’s a lot of work that goes into it that we don’t see. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cal Recycle has about 400 people who work on this program, and those people are paid out of the unclaimed deposits. That money is also supposed to be used to create more ways for recycling our items. CalRecycle gives some of that money to recycling centers who redeem our bottles and cans. Some of it goes to waste hauling companies who pick up our blue bins of recyclables.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I know a lot of people, like our question asker Paul and myself, put our bottles and cans in the blue bin on the curb. But who gets the money for those items? Because I know it’s not me! \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">According to CalRecycle, the waste hauling companies that pick up our recycling like Recology get to cash in on the bottles and cans we put in them. We’re actually the only state with a Bottle Bill where this is the case. So Paul’s right when he says waste haulers are getting paid twice. Consumer advocates, by the way, are not happy with this arrangement…\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another issue with the blue bin….is waste haulers don’t do a perfect job of sorting all the recycling. Oftentimes, food and trash will mix with the bottles and cans…and those containers that don’t get redeemed inevitably end up in the landfill.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Container Recycling Institute says only 13 percent of those bottles and cans being recycled are being redeemed for cash.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So to recap, we’re not getting the money we throw out in blue bins and not all of it is even being recycled. It sounds like everything would be better if took things to the redemption center?\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right but \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If only\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> it were that easy! Yes, redemption centers are the ideal way to recycle our bottles and cans and get our money back. But good luck finding one…\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Bay Area is like the epicenter of redemption center closures, and it’s the area of the state that has the least availability of centers and the more people dependent on each and every center.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the 90’s, San Francisco once had about 35 of these centers scattered throughout the city, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">today there are only two\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…both located in the Bayview District. Since 2013 more than forty percent of these centers have closed across the state. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">California has the least convenient system in the world right now because of these redemption deserts. Why they’ve had to close is a whole other story, but in short – prices for recycled materials dropped so much…these businesses couldn’t survive.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music out\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is all pretty frustrating, and it’s about to get downright infuriating because Californians should, in theory, be able to take our recyclable beverage containers to the grocery store, just like our question asker Paul did when he was growing up in Maine.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right\u003c/span>\u003cb>. \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And technically it’s the law. Under the Bottle Bill supermarkets and retailers that sell beverages \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">are required\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> to recycle them and give us back our money. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It should be just as easy to return your bottle or can for redemption as it was to purchase the bottle in the first place. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: But the problem is most supermarkets don’t take our bottles and cans. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Only a small handful actually do. And so if a supermarket refuses to take your empty cans…then they have to pay what’s called…an “in lieu fee.” A penalty in lieu of redeeming empty containers. It’s a hundred dollar fine per day. But this \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">penalty\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> has become a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">loophole. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For a lot of these stores, $100 a day is a bargain to not have to deal with CRV redemption.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Some stores try \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">to get away\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> without paying the in lieu fees at all. I brought this up to CalRecycle and they said “it’s incredibly hard to ensure that retailers who says they are taking back in store or are paying the in lieu fee, are doing exactly what they’re saying.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It sounds like this system is very broken… \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s what a lot of people I spoke to have said…And as a result, with fewer ways to redeem our bottles and cans, the pot of nickels and dimes in the state’s fund just keeps growing. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As of the end of June last year, the beverage container fund had accumulated 672 million dollars. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Susan says you need some of that money to keep the program going but… \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You certainly do not wanna have a fund balance that’s close to 700 million that indicates a program partial failure. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that …five or ten cents… extra you pay. Consumer advocates say this might not seem like a big deal for some people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liza: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The sort of middle class, upper middle class. You know, a lot of them aren’t even aware they’re paying bottle deposits when they go through the line. Um, you know, they’re not even aware.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Liza Tucker, an advocate \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">with Consumer Watchdog\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> who’s written several reports on the state’s recycling and redemption system. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nLiza: \u003c/b>There are a lot of people in the state of California who actually depend on that money. They actually need cash. They need to fill their tanks with gas. They need to buy food. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But if we can’t redeem, we lose money.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liza: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s called a refundable deposit because that’s what it’s supposed to be. It’s not supposed to be a tax, but it’s turned into a tax because we don’t have any place to take those bottles and cans to get those dimes and nickels back. That’s the fundamental problem. And so we’re looking at a situation where the system. Is imploding.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This sounds like a huge mess. Has anyone tried to fix this?\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lawmakers know the system isn’t working like it’s supposed to…So in 2019, the state put aside 5 million dollars to pilot new ways to recycle and redeem our bottles and cans. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of those pilots is now operating in San Francisco. It’s called Bottle Bank. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It works through an app on your phone. And you have to have an account in order to recycle with them. The app lists their locations and hours. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I grabbed whatever bottles and cans I could find in my apartment…\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound of collecting of bottles and cans\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Steven in scene: There’s probably like 35 cents in here. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I went to one of their busiest locations outside a Safeway by the beach…to see how their operation works and if I could get some CRV.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Steven: “Hello? Hi. How’s it going? Good. Good…Look at all these bags.”\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jon Jon: Yeah. Bottles and cans.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Steven: Are these all, all, all from today?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>Jon Jon: Yes. the morning shift already got about 50, 30, 50 bags.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a Bottle Bank attendant, his name is Jon Jon, he’s collecting bags…. But these aren’t just your typical trash bags… these blue colored garbage bags have a QR code on them that connect to your Bottle Bank account on your phone. Jon Jon takes my bottles and cans and throws them into one of these bags. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Jon Jon\u003ci>:\u003c/i>\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then scan every bag\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> He scans the QR code on the bag…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound of machine beeping\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then he scans the app on my phone. The bag of cans is now linked to my Bottle Bank account. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Jon: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After this day we bring it to the facility and they will process it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My bag along with the other bags of the day will be taken to an offsite recycling center for sorting. This is Jim, he’s another Bottle Bank attendant.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It distinguishes the material type as well as the size of the container and its value. When we process the bottles and cans. The money goes electronically into the Bottle Bank account. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And after three days, I had about a dollar in my account…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> San Francisco officials who run the program are proud of it. Here is Charles Sheehan, He’s with San Francisco’s Department of the Environment and head of the program.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Charles:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s kind of brought bottle and canned recycling into the modern age, if you will.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As of this past summer, the department said it recycled more than three million bottles and cans and given out about $190,000 in CRV.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Charles: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When we think about what our ultimate goal is for CRV, is like, to rapidly increase how many people are redeeming, you know, who is redeeming, getting more money back into people’s pockets.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But Liza from Consumer Watchdog says the pilot is not recycling enough because the Bottle Bank sites are only open-one-day-a-week…only several hours a day in select locations. And it’s …costing taxpayers too much to operate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liza: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We are advocating strongly not to finance the mobile experiments because they aren’t penciling out.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After analyzing Bottle Bank’s expenses, Consumer Watchdog asked the state’s Department of Finance to no longer fund the program. Saying, quote: “It is costing 79 cents to return a nickel to consumers. And it will never be sustainable.”\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These costs include renting out the grocery store parking lots where they’re taking bags. Labor, materials, and transporting the bottes to the facility. But Liza says the biggest problem with Bottle Bank is it’s allowing grocery stores in the city \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">to refuse\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> people’s empty bottles and cans… benefiting supermarkets more than consumers.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Liza: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the minute that they approved this particular pilot, 400 stores got off the hook.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s cause under the Bottle Bill…if a grocery store is within a certain mile radius of \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">a recycling center then, the store doesn’t have to recycle or redeem any of our bottles and cans…and they don’t have to pay the in lieu fee. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liza: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because a stipulation behind all of these pilot programs is that when they say yes to a pilot is in an underserved location it automatically absolves all the supermarkets in the area from either having to take back in store because there’s no redemption center or pay that a hundred dollars a day.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In defense of the program, Charles Sheehan stresses they’re still in the pilot phase, which means making revisions while incurring costs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Charles: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re growing. Um, and as we grow, you know, we will continue to kind of bring in more revenues and bring our revenues in line with our costs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> According to CalRecycle, the state just awarded 500 thousand dollars to expand the program. Sheehan says the goal is to get up to 30 locations running with longer operating hours. Meanwhile, Liza says, the tech Bottle Bank is using isn’t new.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Liza: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s already proven technology. This is not innovation, quote unquote. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of this is about access to redemption. The more convenient it is, the bigger the volume is of what you take in, and then you’re covering costs and making some money.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>We’re one of ten states with bottle bills. Are other states having more success with their programs?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>Absolutely. According to the Container Recycling Institute…we have a redemption rate of 60 percent. In comparison, Maine and Oregon have redemption rates of 80 to 90 percent. In Oregon there are supermarket sized redemption centers near grocery stores with multiple ways to recycle…seven days a week sometimes 24 hours a day. Here’s Susan Collins again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can take your containers inside and they have banks of RVMs. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">RVMs or reverse vending machines…are kiosks with slots in them for you to drop your items. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or if you have a small number of containers, I think if it’s under 50, you just go straight to the front counter and say, count my containers and give me my money. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can also drop your items off in a bag where they’re counted later…and Oregon uses the same technology as Bottle Bank…so if you want the money delivered electronically on your phone you can do that too or get a voucher and use it towards your groceries.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that’s why there’s a contrast between what’s going on in San Francisco. San Francisco does not have all of those locations, does not have all of those layers. And does not have locations that are open for a huge number of hours every week.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it’s possible…that we could start looking a little like Oregon. A law passed last year says that starting in 2025…large grocery stores will no longer have $100 a day\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">in lieu fee option. So they will \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">truly\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> be responsible for redeeming our bottles and cans. The idea is to create large scale redemption centers with multiple ways to recycle and redeem items.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The retailers have to establish a convenience infrastructure that is equivalent to what it would be if they had, you know, in-store takeback.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">CalRecycle is giving out more than 70 million dollars in grant money to large grocery store chains \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">to create\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> this infrastructure.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s considered one of the biggest improvements to the Bottle Bill ever, and CalRecycle’s director Rachel Wagoner says this is a serious investment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wagoner: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This machinery isn’t inexpensive to buy upfront. Right. So if the state’s gonna purchase it, we wanna make sure that that is a long-term investment that we’re making in the recycling system. In addition to the new infrastructure, the new law will be adding wine and spirits to the list of redemption options for 25 cents a bottle.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wagoner is optimistic that the new law will make a real difference in the number of redeemed containers, taking our current redemption rate from 60 percent to a hundred.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wagoner: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, uh, even if I don’t hit a hundred percent, let’s see how close we can get.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And Susan is also optimistic…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If everything goes according to plan. We could have a really good system in California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But she is skeptical about how fast the changes will come. She says her organization first advocated for these changes back in 2009.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it happened in 2022. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I also know that if we advocate for something strongly enough and long enough that eventually it will come to pass. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I reached out to Paul, our question asker, and told him how most of the money from unredeemed deposits just sits in the beverage container fund…because most of the redemption centers have closed. We pulled up a map of Oakland and found that the nearest redemption center to his home was more than five miles away. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Steven: I’m curious, I wanna get your thoughts on that. Is that feasible? What do you think?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Paul: I live in a small condo and for me there’s a headache associated with storing a whole separate bag full of cans, like, I’m not gonna go for like two or three cans.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But Paul likes the idea of redeeming bottles and cans at supermarkets… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would go to the grocery store to go shopping where I could return my can. So for me it’s an incentive to go shop at their store. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maybe someday soon Paul will once again be able to head to the grocery store with a bag of cans, and come home with a little cash in his pocket.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>OUTRO\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was producer and reporter Steven Rascon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Longtime listeners will know this isn’t our first rodeo talking about how recycling works and sometimes doesn’t. Find links to more episodes in our show notes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you probably know by now, we are in a fundraising period, but I wanted to point something out… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People ask me all the time how they can get their hands on some Bay Curious swag. And usually the answer is: You have to get on the show and we send you a thank you item for participating. But right now, you can get your hands on one of our thick, luxurious, Bay Curious beanies — which I’ll add are legendary among the question askers who’ve received them. All it takes is becoming a KQED member. Visit \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> to learn how and stay toasty with us all winter long. Or, if you don’t need a new hat, you can choose from lots of other great gifts at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">donate.kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">/podcasts. Thank you. Seriously! Thank you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the entire KQED family. Have a wonderful week.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>Read a transcript of this episode\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Paul Beach was a kid growing up in Maine, he remembers going to a recycling center that was part of a grocery store. He watched people walk into this large space with garbage bags full of bottles and cans. And when he noticed they were walking out with cash, he wanted in on the hustle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I would have like $50 in cans. It took me a while to get that much, but it was pretty good income for, like, a 10-year-old,” Beach said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maine and California are two states with \u003ca href=\"https://www.bottlebill.org/index.php/current-and-proposed-laws/usa/california\">a Bottle Bill\u003c/a>, a law that encourages recycling for money. When Beach moved to California, where he’s lived for the past 25 years, he looked up the closest redemption center to him in Oakland and discovered it was 5 miles away. A place called Cash for Cans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Beach, it’s not worth storing several bags of containers in his apartment for a single trip. Instead, he puts his recyclables in the blue bin on the street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This experience had him wondering: Where does the money go for bottle-and-can redemption if residents don’t turn them into a recycling center? And why is it so hard to recycle them in the first place?\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Bottle Bill\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The money Beach is talking about is the California Redemption Value, or CRV — and it’s not exactly free. Whenever someone buys a drink from the store with the letters CRV printed on the label, they’re paying a 5-to-10-cent deposit at the checkout line. To get that deposit back, they have to recycle those containers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This applies mostly to beverages that come in aluminum cans and plastic bottles. The whole point is to encourage recycling and reduce litter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1986, the state passed the California Beverage Container Recycling and Litter Reduction Act, also known as the Bottle Bill. The law created the recycling deposit system many use today. California is also one of 10 states in the country with a Bottle Bill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Susan V. Collins, president of the Container Recycling Institute in Culver City, calls Bottle Bills “the rock stars of recycling” because of the financial incentive behind them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>“People either hold onto their bottle and turn it in for the 5 cents, or if they do litter it, someone else picks it up and takes it in for recycling,” Collins said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since passing its Bottle Bill, California has had a good track record with the number of recycled and redeemed containers. One out of five beverage containers recycled in the U.S. \u003ca href=\"https://www.bottlebill.org/index.php/current-and-proposed-laws/usa/california\">are recycled in California\u003c/a>, according to the Container Recycling Institute.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But recycling containers isn’t the same as redeeming them for cash. As redemption centers closed across the state, Californians were left with fewer options to redeem their bottles and cans. According to CRI, the state’s redemption rates have fallen from 74% to 60% in the past decade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11962004\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2023/09/21/cashing-in-on-californias-broken-bottle-deposit-system/bottles-ready-to-be-recycled-at-the-recycling-center-at-church-on-market-streets-in-san-francisco-calif-on-friday-august-9-2013-safeway-is-going-to-shut-down-its-recyling-center-here-by-septemb/\" rel=\"attachment wp-att-11962004\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11962004\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"two bins of glass bottles and cans\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bottles ready to be recycled at the recycling center at Church and Market streets in San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Liz Hafalia/The San Francisco Chronicle via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Redemption center deserts\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>When the Bottle Bill was passed in the 1980s it depended on California’s current recycling center infrastructure. Recycling centers were now obligated to give people back their money for bottles and cans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Most of these businesses created partnerships with grocery stores to establish convenience for consumers looking for a place to recycle. They set up shop in the parking lots of a store much like the one from Beach’s childhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But when revenue started to plummet at these locations because of the falling price of scrap material, many shuttered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since 2013, more than 40% of \u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/cash-in-the-can-californias-recycling-run-around/2055057/\">these recycling centers\u003c/a> have closed across the state. Collins said the Bay Area is the epicenter of these closures affecting a majority of people who depend on these centers for extra income.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“California has the least convenient system in the world right now because of these redemption deserts,” Collins said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the ’90s, San Francisco once had about 35 redemption centers scattered throughout the city. Today, there are only two and both are located in the Bayview District. CalRecycle \u003ca href=\"https://www2.calrecycle.ca.gov/BevContainer/RecyclingCenters/\">lists about 1,200 redemption centers\u003c/a> left in the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Abandoned deposits\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>When bottles and cans end up in landfills and not redeemed, those deposits are considered “unclaimed” by the state. This unclaimed money sits in the Beverage Container Fund, which is managed by CalRecycle. About 400 people in the state agency who work in the beverage container program are paid out of unclaimed deposits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The money is supposed to be used to subsidize the state’s recycling infrastructure to help people get their money back. But for the most part, it stays untouched in the beverage container fund.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "‘California has the least convenient system in the world right now because of these redemption deserts.’",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Some of the unclaimed deposits are paid out to redemption centers, but not a whole lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In California, where many rely on blue recycling bins, waste hauling companies get to cash in on the CRV money attached to those bottles and cans thrown out. Collins said only a small percentage of those recyclables are redeemed because waste haulers don’t always do a perfect job of sorting through the recycling. Inevitably, a lot of it ends up in landfill. Last year, only 13% were redeemed for CRV.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Collins said, as of last summer, the beverage container fund accumulated $672 million. She indicated that the high balance was a partial failure on behalf of the program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Consumer advocates argue that redemption center closures and allowing waste haulers to take residents’ CRV is hurting consumers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s turned into a tax because we don’t have any place to take those bottles and cans to get those dimes and nickels back. That’s the fundamental problem,” said Liza Tucker, consumer advocate for Consumer Watchdog.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She added that working-class communities who \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11714223/when-recycling-pays-and-when-it-doesnt\">depend on recycling to pay bills\u003c/a> are hurting the most.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They actually need cash. They need to fill their tanks with gas. They need to buy food,” Tucker said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The in-lieu-fee loophole\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Under the Bottle Bill, retailers that sell beverages are required to recycle those beverages if there’s no recycling center nearby. The law was designed for the sake of convenience. But California’s Bottle Bill gives stores the option of paying out of their responsibility to recycle and redeem drink containers. This is known as the “in-lieu fee,” a penalty in lieu of redeeming empty containers — a $100 fee for each day the store is not taking back recyclables.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In some cases, stores \u003ca href=\"https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/10/business/cvs-3-6-million-fine-california-recycling-trnd/index.html#:~:text=California%20is%20slapping%20CVS%20with,its%20residents%2C%20the%20state%20said\">try to get away with not paying the in-lieu fees at all\u003c/a>. In response, CalRecycle Director Rachel Machi Wagoner said, “It’s incredibly hard to ensure that retailers who say they are taking back in store or are paying the in-lieu fee, are doing exactly what they’re saying.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11962006\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2023/09/21/cashing-in-on-californias-broken-bottle-deposit-system/customers-line-up-to-have-bottles-and-cans-weighed-before-they-receive-a-cash-payment-at-the-our-planet-recycling-collection-center-on-bayshore-boulevard-in-san-francisco-calif-on-thursday-aug-3-2/\" rel=\"attachment wp-att-11962006\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11962006\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"people lined up outside a recycling center with trash bags full of recyclable bottles and cans\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1722\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-800x538.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-1020x686.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-160x108.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-1536x1033.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-2048x1377.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-1920x1291.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Customers line up to have bottles and cans weighed before they receive a cash payment at the Our Planet Recycling collection center on Bayshore Boulevard in San Francisco in 2017. Independent recycling centers are struggling to stay open saying the state subsidies aren’t enough to keep them in business. \u003ccite>(Paul Chinn/The San Francisco Chronicle via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Lawmakers know the system isn’t working\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 2019, the state put aside $5 million to pilot new ways to recycle and redeem our bottles and cans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of those pilot programs is called \u003ca href=\"https://sfbottlebank.org/\">BottleBank\u003c/a> in San Francisco. After downloading the app, consumers drop off their containers to any BottleBank mobile drop-off location and then their recyclables get taken to an offsite recycling center for sorting. The CRV is tallied up and the money is electronically delivered to the person’s bank account.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Our ultimate goal for CRV is to rapidly increase how many people are redeeming. … getting more money back into people’s pockets,” said Charles Sheehan, chief policy and public affairs officer with San Francisco’s Department of the Environment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since the program kicked off last year, Sheehan said the department recycled more than 3 million bottles and cans and paid out about $190,000 in CRV as of this summer. There are currently \u003ca href=\"https://sfbottlebank.org/locations/\">20 BottleBank sites\u003c/a> set up around the city with many found parked outside Safeway, Whole Foods and Grocery Outlet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n What do you wonder about the Bay Area, its culture or people that you want KQED to investigate?\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Ask Bay Curious.\u003c/a>\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>Consumer advocates, however, aren’t happy with the program, saying the pilot is benefiting supermarkets more than consumers. CalRecycle lists the BottleBank sites on its website as certified recycling centers. Under the Bottle Bill, grocery stores within a certain mile radius of a recycling center don’t have to pay in-lieu fees or take back in store.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So the minute that they approved this particular pilot, 400 stores got off the hook,” Tucker of Consumer Watchdog said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Consumer Watchdog added that BottleBank is not recycling enough, because the sites are only open one day out of the week for several hours a day and the program is costing taxpayers too much to operate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After analyzing BottleBank’s expenses, Consumer Watchdog asked the state’s Department of Finance to no longer fund the program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is costing 79 cents to return a nickel to consumers. And it will never be sustainable,” it said in \u003ca href=\"https://consumerwatchdog.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/LtrBottleBankStephenshaw6-19-23.pdf\">a statement (PDF)\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In defense of the program, Sheehan stressed that it’s still in the pilot phase, which means making improvements while incurring costs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re growing, and as we grow we will continue to kind of bring in more revenues and bring our revenues in line with our costs,” Sheehan said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BottleBank’s costs include renting the grocery store parking lot space for its operations, plus labor, marketing materials and transportation for the bottles and cans to the recycling facility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to CalRecycle, the state awarded the program $500,000 to expand their services to last until the end of the year. Sheehan said the goal is to get a total of 30 locations running with longer operating hours.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A new law could change it all\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Other Bottle Bill states like Oregon have a higher redemption rate of 85%. The state has multiple ways to redeem items using reverse vending machines, bag drop programs and in-store take back. The state also utilizes the same app-based technology as BottleBank for consumers to receive their CRV electronically. They can also get a voucher to use at their local grocery store.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Starting in 2025, it’s possible that California can start looking more like Oregon. SB 1013 passed last year and it will require grocery stores with no nearby recycling centers to be responsible for taking back empty beverage containers starting in January 2025. It also removes the optional $100-a-day in-lieu fee and adds wine and spirits to the list of redemption items.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s considered one of the biggest improvements to the Bottle Bill ever. CalRecycle’s Director, Rachel Wagoner, added that the machinery to build this infrastructure will not be cheap.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So if the state’s gonna purchase it, we wanna make sure that that is a long-term investment that we’re making in the recycling system,” Wagoner said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>CalRecycle is giving out more than $70 million in grant money to large grocery store chains to create this infrastructure. The agency is currently having public workshops with retailers to answer questions about the grant process. The idea is to create large-scale redemption centers with multiple ways to recycle items, while increasing the state’s redemption rate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, Wagoner is optimistic that the new law will make a real difference in the number of redeemed containers. And she’s hopeful for 100% redemption.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And even if I don’t hit 100%, let’s see how close we can get,” Wagoner said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Collins said her organization, the Container Recycling Institute, first advocated for these changes in 2009. She added that if everything goes according to plan California could have a good system in place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Yet Collins is skeptical about how fast those changes will come. She pointed out that multiple spending programs, and an additional budget bill, passed along with the new law may exceed the resources in the Beverage Container Fund to create the redemption infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.container-recycling.org/images/2023/CRI_CalRecycle_budget_questions_Sen_06132023.pdf\">In a letter (PDF)\u003c/a> asking the state’s Senate Budget Committee to reconsider how they spend the money, Collins wrote, “The complete implementation of AB 179 and SB 1013 over 6 years will cost the beverage container fund and other accounts roughly $1.3 billion.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We can’t have money going outta the fund to pay for things that are not bottles and cans when that money is needed to give people their nickels and dimes back,” said Collins.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When Paul Beach was a kid growing up in Maine, he would go to this recycling center that was part of a grocery store. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Beach:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was a pretty big space in the grocery store. And you just bring your bottles and cans in. and they sorted them, like green bottles went here, white bottles went there, brown bottles went here.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Paul noticed that people would walk into the recycling center with a bag of … well, garbage, essentially. And they would walk out with \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">cash\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. He wanted in on the hustle.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I would have, like $50 in cans. It took me a while to get that much, but it was pretty good income for like a 10 year old.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That experience taught Paul the literal value of recycling. Every bottle or can was worth up to fifteen cents in Maine because of the state’s\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> bottle bill\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. That’s a law designed to encourage recycling. When Paul moved to California, where we \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">also\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> have a bottle bill, he thought things would work about the same…but his nearest redemption center was far, so he never went … Now, he puts his items on the curb where they’re whisked away by a waste hauling company.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I am pretty sure that the company that I pay to take the recycling fishes through and gets all the cans and they get the money for the cans and bottles. // like, you’re getting paid on both sides. It’s like, this just doesn’t seem fair.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This has all left him wondering about a few things…\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Where does the money go for bottle and can redemption if we don’t bring the bottles and cans back?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why is it so hard to find a place to recycle them in the first place?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music change\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In today’s episode of Bay Curious we dig into how this recycling system works and why some argue it’s seriously broken. Plus: Who’s pocketing the CRV money from California’s unclaimed bottles and cans? I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious. We’ll be right back.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> To answer Paul’s questions about bottle and can redemption in California … KQED’s Steven Rascón has been following the money. Hey Steven!\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey Olivia.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Paul’s question is all about CRV. Can you explain what exactly that is?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sure. CRV stands for California Redemption Value. And it applies to certain bottled and canned drinks you buy from the store. Anytime you buy one of these beverages with the letters CRV engraved on the lid or printed on the label, you’re paying 5-10 cents extra at the checkout line. Paying this extra charge is supposed to work like a deposit. Because once we’re done with that drink, we’re supposed to recycle it and get back those 10 cents.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And this applies specifically to store-bought beverages… so containers of juice, coffee, water, soda …?\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. This recycling system is part of a law that’s colloquially known as the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bottle Bill\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. We are one of ten states in the country with a Bottle Bill. Beverage containers specifically, continue to make up roughly half of roadside litter across the country. And so in the 80’s, environmentalists and lawmakers decided to do something about it in California… and pass the Bottle Bill. And recycling experts say this system works.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan Collins:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We know that bottle bills on average, reduce beverage container litter by 50%. So we can keep some of those plastics outta the ocean if we have bottle bills in place. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Susan Collins, she’s the head of the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Container Recycling Institute\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> in Culver City California. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The whole reason bottle bills work like magic, why I call them the rock stars of recycling, is because of the incentive that’s attached to it. because people either hold onto their bottle and turn it in for the 5 cents, or if they do litter it, someone else picks it up and takes it in for recycling.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Since California passed its Bottle Bill, the number of recycled containers has shot up. The Container Recycling Institute says one out of five beverage containers recycled in the US are being recycled in California. But…not all of those bottles and cans are getting redeemed for cash. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And when that happens…that money just stays in what’s called the beverage container fund. A fund that’s owned by the state.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is the unclaimed money in that fund used for? \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So the unclaimed deposits from those containers, the money \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">that no one’s getting\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> belongs to the state. CalRecycle is the state agency that manages the fund and the program. Susan says there’s a lot of work that goes into it that we don’t see. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cal Recycle has about 400 people who work on this program, and those people are paid out of the unclaimed deposits. That money is also supposed to be used to create more ways for recycling our items. CalRecycle gives some of that money to recycling centers who redeem our bottles and cans. Some of it goes to waste hauling companies who pick up our blue bins of recyclables.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I know a lot of people, like our question asker Paul and myself, put our bottles and cans in the blue bin on the curb. But who gets the money for those items? Because I know it’s not me! \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">According to CalRecycle, the waste hauling companies that pick up our recycling like Recology get to cash in on the bottles and cans we put in them. We’re actually the only state with a Bottle Bill where this is the case. So Paul’s right when he says waste haulers are getting paid twice. Consumer advocates, by the way, are not happy with this arrangement…\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another issue with the blue bin….is waste haulers don’t do a perfect job of sorting all the recycling. Oftentimes, food and trash will mix with the bottles and cans…and those containers that don’t get redeemed inevitably end up in the landfill.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Container Recycling Institute says only 13 percent of those bottles and cans being recycled are being redeemed for cash.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So to recap, we’re not getting the money we throw out in blue bins and not all of it is even being recycled. It sounds like everything would be better if took things to the redemption center?\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right but \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If only\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> it were that easy! Yes, redemption centers are the ideal way to recycle our bottles and cans and get our money back. But good luck finding one…\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Bay Area is like the epicenter of redemption center closures, and it’s the area of the state that has the least availability of centers and the more people dependent on each and every center.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the 90’s, San Francisco once had about 35 of these centers scattered throughout the city, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">today there are only two\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…both located in the Bayview District. Since 2013 more than forty percent of these centers have closed across the state. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">California has the least convenient system in the world right now because of these redemption deserts. Why they’ve had to close is a whole other story, but in short – prices for recycled materials dropped so much…these businesses couldn’t survive.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music out\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is all pretty frustrating, and it’s about to get downright infuriating because Californians should, in theory, be able to take our recyclable beverage containers to the grocery store, just like our question asker Paul did when he was growing up in Maine.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right\u003c/span>\u003cb>. \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And technically it’s the law. Under the Bottle Bill supermarkets and retailers that sell beverages \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">are required\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> to recycle them and give us back our money. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It should be just as easy to return your bottle or can for redemption as it was to purchase the bottle in the first place. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: But the problem is most supermarkets don’t take our bottles and cans. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Only a small handful actually do. And so if a supermarket refuses to take your empty cans…then they have to pay what’s called…an “in lieu fee.” A penalty in lieu of redeeming empty containers. It’s a hundred dollar fine per day. But this \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">penalty\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> has become a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">loophole. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For a lot of these stores, $100 a day is a bargain to not have to deal with CRV redemption.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Some stores try \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">to get away\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> without paying the in lieu fees at all. I brought this up to CalRecycle and they said “it’s incredibly hard to ensure that retailers who says they are taking back in store or are paying the in lieu fee, are doing exactly what they’re saying.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It sounds like this system is very broken… \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s what a lot of people I spoke to have said…And as a result, with fewer ways to redeem our bottles and cans, the pot of nickels and dimes in the state’s fund just keeps growing. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As of the end of June last year, the beverage container fund had accumulated 672 million dollars. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Susan says you need some of that money to keep the program going but… \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You certainly do not wanna have a fund balance that’s close to 700 million that indicates a program partial failure. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that …five or ten cents… extra you pay. Consumer advocates say this might not seem like a big deal for some people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liza: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The sort of middle class, upper middle class. You know, a lot of them aren’t even aware they’re paying bottle deposits when they go through the line. Um, you know, they’re not even aware.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Liza Tucker, an advocate \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">with Consumer Watchdog\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> who’s written several reports on the state’s recycling and redemption system. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nLiza: \u003c/b>There are a lot of people in the state of California who actually depend on that money. They actually need cash. They need to fill their tanks with gas. They need to buy food. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But if we can’t redeem, we lose money.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liza: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s called a refundable deposit because that’s what it’s supposed to be. It’s not supposed to be a tax, but it’s turned into a tax because we don’t have any place to take those bottles and cans to get those dimes and nickels back. That’s the fundamental problem. And so we’re looking at a situation where the system. Is imploding.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This sounds like a huge mess. Has anyone tried to fix this?\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lawmakers know the system isn’t working like it’s supposed to…So in 2019, the state put aside 5 million dollars to pilot new ways to recycle and redeem our bottles and cans. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of those pilots is now operating in San Francisco. It’s called Bottle Bank. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It works through an app on your phone. And you have to have an account in order to recycle with them. The app lists their locations and hours. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I grabbed whatever bottles and cans I could find in my apartment…\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound of collecting of bottles and cans\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Steven in scene: There’s probably like 35 cents in here. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I went to one of their busiest locations outside a Safeway by the beach…to see how their operation works and if I could get some CRV.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Steven: “Hello? Hi. How’s it going? Good. Good…Look at all these bags.”\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jon Jon: Yeah. Bottles and cans.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Steven: Are these all, all, all from today?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>Jon Jon: Yes. the morning shift already got about 50, 30, 50 bags.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a Bottle Bank attendant, his name is Jon Jon, he’s collecting bags…. But these aren’t just your typical trash bags… these blue colored garbage bags have a QR code on them that connect to your Bottle Bank account on your phone. Jon Jon takes my bottles and cans and throws them into one of these bags. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Jon Jon\u003ci>:\u003c/i>\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then scan every bag\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> He scans the QR code on the bag…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound of machine beeping\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then he scans the app on my phone. The bag of cans is now linked to my Bottle Bank account. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Jon: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After this day we bring it to the facility and they will process it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My bag along with the other bags of the day will be taken to an offsite recycling center for sorting. This is Jim, he’s another Bottle Bank attendant.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It distinguishes the material type as well as the size of the container and its value. When we process the bottles and cans. The money goes electronically into the Bottle Bank account. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And after three days, I had about a dollar in my account…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> San Francisco officials who run the program are proud of it. Here is Charles Sheehan, He’s with San Francisco’s Department of the Environment and head of the program.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Charles:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s kind of brought bottle and canned recycling into the modern age, if you will.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As of this past summer, the department said it recycled more than three million bottles and cans and given out about $190,000 in CRV.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Charles: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When we think about what our ultimate goal is for CRV, is like, to rapidly increase how many people are redeeming, you know, who is redeeming, getting more money back into people’s pockets.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But Liza from Consumer Watchdog says the pilot is not recycling enough because the Bottle Bank sites are only open-one-day-a-week…only several hours a day in select locations. And it’s …costing taxpayers too much to operate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liza: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We are advocating strongly not to finance the mobile experiments because they aren’t penciling out.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After analyzing Bottle Bank’s expenses, Consumer Watchdog asked the state’s Department of Finance to no longer fund the program. Saying, quote: “It is costing 79 cents to return a nickel to consumers. And it will never be sustainable.”\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These costs include renting out the grocery store parking lots where they’re taking bags. Labor, materials, and transporting the bottes to the facility. But Liza says the biggest problem with Bottle Bank is it’s allowing grocery stores in the city \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">to refuse\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> people’s empty bottles and cans… benefiting supermarkets more than consumers.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Liza: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the minute that they approved this particular pilot, 400 stores got off the hook.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s cause under the Bottle Bill…if a grocery store is within a certain mile radius of \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">a recycling center then, the store doesn’t have to recycle or redeem any of our bottles and cans…and they don’t have to pay the in lieu fee. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liza: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because a stipulation behind all of these pilot programs is that when they say yes to a pilot is in an underserved location it automatically absolves all the supermarkets in the area from either having to take back in store because there’s no redemption center or pay that a hundred dollars a day.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In defense of the program, Charles Sheehan stresses they’re still in the pilot phase, which means making revisions while incurring costs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Charles: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re growing. Um, and as we grow, you know, we will continue to kind of bring in more revenues and bring our revenues in line with our costs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> According to CalRecycle, the state just awarded 500 thousand dollars to expand the program. Sheehan says the goal is to get up to 30 locations running with longer operating hours. Meanwhile, Liza says, the tech Bottle Bank is using isn’t new.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Liza: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s already proven technology. This is not innovation, quote unquote. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of this is about access to redemption. The more convenient it is, the bigger the volume is of what you take in, and then you’re covering costs and making some money.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>We’re one of ten states with bottle bills. Are other states having more success with their programs?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>Absolutely. According to the Container Recycling Institute…we have a redemption rate of 60 percent. In comparison, Maine and Oregon have redemption rates of 80 to 90 percent. In Oregon there are supermarket sized redemption centers near grocery stores with multiple ways to recycle…seven days a week sometimes 24 hours a day. Here’s Susan Collins again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can take your containers inside and they have banks of RVMs. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">RVMs or reverse vending machines…are kiosks with slots in them for you to drop your items. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or if you have a small number of containers, I think if it’s under 50, you just go straight to the front counter and say, count my containers and give me my money. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can also drop your items off in a bag where they’re counted later…and Oregon uses the same technology as Bottle Bank…so if you want the money delivered electronically on your phone you can do that too or get a voucher and use it towards your groceries.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that’s why there’s a contrast between what’s going on in San Francisco. San Francisco does not have all of those locations, does not have all of those layers. And does not have locations that are open for a huge number of hours every week.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it’s possible…that we could start looking a little like Oregon. A law passed last year says that starting in 2025…large grocery stores will no longer have $100 a day\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">in lieu fee option. So they will \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">truly\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> be responsible for redeeming our bottles and cans. The idea is to create large scale redemption centers with multiple ways to recycle and redeem items.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The retailers have to establish a convenience infrastructure that is equivalent to what it would be if they had, you know, in-store takeback.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">CalRecycle is giving out more than 70 million dollars in grant money to large grocery store chains \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">to create\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> this infrastructure.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s considered one of the biggest improvements to the Bottle Bill ever, and CalRecycle’s director Rachel Wagoner says this is a serious investment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wagoner: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This machinery isn’t inexpensive to buy upfront. Right. So if the state’s gonna purchase it, we wanna make sure that that is a long-term investment that we’re making in the recycling system. In addition to the new infrastructure, the new law will be adding wine and spirits to the list of redemption options for 25 cents a bottle.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wagoner is optimistic that the new law will make a real difference in the number of redeemed containers, taking our current redemption rate from 60 percent to a hundred.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wagoner: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, uh, even if I don’t hit a hundred percent, let’s see how close we can get.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And Susan is also optimistic…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If everything goes according to plan. We could have a really good system in California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But she is skeptical about how fast the changes will come. She says her organization first advocated for these changes back in 2009.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it happened in 2022. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I also know that if we advocate for something strongly enough and long enough that eventually it will come to pass. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I reached out to Paul, our question asker, and told him how most of the money from unredeemed deposits just sits in the beverage container fund…because most of the redemption centers have closed. We pulled up a map of Oakland and found that the nearest redemption center to his home was more than five miles away. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Steven: I’m curious, I wanna get your thoughts on that. Is that feasible? What do you think?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Paul: I live in a small condo and for me there’s a headache associated with storing a whole separate bag full of cans, like, I’m not gonna go for like two or three cans.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But Paul likes the idea of redeeming bottles and cans at supermarkets… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would go to the grocery store to go shopping where I could return my can. So for me it’s an incentive to go shop at their store. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maybe someday soon Paul will once again be able to head to the grocery store with a bag of cans, and come home with a little cash in his pocket.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>OUTRO\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was producer and reporter Steven Rascon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Longtime listeners will know this isn’t our first rodeo talking about how recycling works and sometimes doesn’t. Find links to more episodes in our show notes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you probably know by now, we are in a fundraising period, but I wanted to point something out… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People ask me all the time how they can get their hands on some Bay Curious swag. And usually the answer is: You have to get on the show and we send you a thank you item for participating. But right now, you can get your hands on one of our thick, luxurious, Bay Curious beanies — which I’ll add are legendary among the question askers who’ve received them. All it takes is becoming a KQED member. Visit \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> to learn how and stay toasty with us all winter long. Or, if you don’t need a new hat, you can choose from lots of other great gifts at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">donate.kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">/podcasts. Thank you. Seriously! Thank you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the entire KQED family. Have a wonderful week.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
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"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
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"possible": {
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"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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"radiolab": {
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},
"rightnowish": {
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"title": "Rightnowish",
"tagline": "Art is where you find it",
"info": "Rightnowish digs into life in the Bay Area right now… ish. Journalist Pendarvis Harshaw takes us to galleries painted on the sides of liquor stores in West Oakland. We'll dance in warehouses in the Bayview, make smoothies with kids in South Berkeley, and listen to classical music in a 1984 Cutlass Supreme in Richmond. Every week, Pen talks to movers and shakers about how the Bay Area shapes what they create, and how they shape the place we call home.",
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},
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"tagline": "Real stories with killer beats",
"info": "The Snap Judgment radio show and podcast mixes real stories with killer beats to produce cinematic, dramatic radio. Snap's musical brand of storytelling dares listeners to see the world through the eyes of another. This is storytelling... with a BEAT!! Snap first aired on public radio stations nationwide in July 2010. Today, Snap Judgment airs on over 450 public radio stations and is brought to the airwaves by KQED & PRX.",
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"soldout": {
"id": "soldout",
"title": "SOLD OUT: Rethinking Housing in America",
"tagline": "A new future for housing",
"info": "Sold Out: Rethinking Housing in America",
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