The California Report Magazine's series "Love You for You," features trans and nonbinary youth from across California in conversation with people in their lives who love, support and mentor them so they can thrive.
Trans Kids Talk With Loved Ones in 'Love You for You' Series
Celebrating a ‘Long Lost History’ of California’s Black Trans Trailblazers
'It's Self-Love': Trans Elder Donna Personna Shares Advice With a Younger Generation
‘Love You for You:’ What Parents Can Learn About Love and Support from their Trans Kids
'Love You for You:' Trans Kids Talk to Their Grandparents
Introducing 'Love You for You:' Conversations Between Trans Kids and Their Loved Ones
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"content": "\u003cp>In a new series called ‘Love You For You,’ KQED’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">The California Report Magazine\u003c/a> host Sasha Khokha sat in on conversations between trans and nonbinary kids and the people who love them. Today, we talk with Sasha about the series.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/love-you-for-you\">Check out the entire ‘Love You For You’ series \u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5633152825&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] I’m Erica Cruz Guevara and welcome to the Bay, local news to keep you rooted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:00:05] Your adorable beanie baby beanie hat is so cute with the little bouncy thing on top of your headphones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:13] This is my colleague Sasha Khokha. She’s the host of the California Report magazine, a weekly show bringing in-depth storytelling and documentaries about our beautiful state. And I really wanted to talk with Sasha, who’s been thinking a lot lately, about trans kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:00:35] You know, I have a lot of amazing trans and non-binary kids in my life, and talking to those kids and talking to their families, I heard a lot of frustration that the media coverage of trans kids right now often doesn’t even include the voices of trans kids. And often flattens kids into just one dimension of their identity, which is their gender.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:03] For Sasha, these kids are so much more than that. They’re students, athletes, dancers, and siblings. And some are also thriving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:01:15] I think there’s a lot of power in hearing from parents, from grandparents, from elders who love and support transgender and non-binary kids so they can thrive, so they can find joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:33] So Sasha and her colleagues spent months putting together this series called Love You for You. Conversations between trans kids and the people who love them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child \u003c/strong>[00:01:47] Thanks for letting me be who I am.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother \u003c/strong>[00:01:49] Yeah. And thank you for letting me be your parent and for letting me love you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child \u003c/strong>[00:01:56] You’re welcome. (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:00] The series Love You for You features six conversations between trans and non-binary kids and their loved ones. And today we’re gonna talk with Sasha about being a fly on the wall to these conversations as the trans community is under attack. That’s coming up right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:32] We’re talking about your series for the California Report magazine. I wonder if you can actually just start by walking me through the the thinking behind your series, the why.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:02:43] The thinking was there’s a lot out there about trans kids being in the crosshairs of the Trump administration right now. But I think what’s really missing are stories of what it looks like when kids have love and support from their families and because of that are insulated a little bit from what’s happening in the outside world. That’s not to say that backdrop doesn’t exist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:12] Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:03:13] But I think there’s a lot of power in hearing from parents, from grandparents, from elders who love and support transgender and nonbinary kids so they can thrive, so they can find joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:31] And these were essentially sort of like StoryCorps style episodes where you’re not in it but you just hear these kids talking with these people who are important in their lives about who they are and why they love them and just these very sweet conversations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:03:50] Right, and that’s part of why we wanted to do these as conversations that could unfold naturally without me as the journalist coming to their house and sticking a microphone in their face and getting a sound bite or two from a kid. And we also really wanted to give these kids agency so they picked the adults or the other people they wanted to be in conversation with.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:17] With can you explain the range of people that we hear from in this series?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:04:23] So we start off with an eight year old non-binary kid in conversation with their mom. I like took this sock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child \u003c/strong>[00:04:31] I like to play soccer and read, and my family’s from Asia like Vietnam and Taiwan and my pronouns they them and I’m eight years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:04:43] And that was actually the first conversation we recorded. And it was kind of hard because the kid was really shy and was only eight and was a little bit soft spoken on the microphone. It was a little bit stuffed up, so it was like a little bit hard to understand them. And their voice is so cute. Yeah, and I thought, oh my gosh, how’s this gonna go? Like, how are we gonna do all of these? But honestly, I think once they got warmed up and their mom really made them feel comfortable, it was quite a sweet conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child \u003c/strong>[00:05:15] What are you most proud of about me?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother \u003c/strong>[00:05:19] That you knew when you were very young. You were only about four years old and you just kinda told me that you weren’t sure that you fit being either a boy or a girl, and you felt maybe like you were neither or both. And that was something for us to learn because we didn’t think kids that young knew that about themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:05:47] And especially about navigating pronouns with their Vietnamese and Taiwanese relatives because in some of their families’ home languages there are not gendered pronouns. And so it was just a really interesting conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother \u003c/strong>[00:06:03] And so for them everybody’s a they or they mix they mix he’s and she’s a lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child \u003c/strong>[00:06:09] Maybe like the future could just be like people accept they them or trans just as like would they accept she or he right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:06:28] In some cases the kids chose actually to bring in someone who was not blood related to them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval \u003c/strong>[00:06:33] Beyond you being my aunt, you’re one of my closest friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:06:37] One of the conversations was with sixteen year old Hunter Stoval, who decided to talk with his special auntie, whose name’s Shirin Amini. She actually came out as a lesbian in the nineteen nineties, and the first person she came out to was Hunter’s mom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini \u003c/strong>[00:06:56] I think honestly, that your mom was the most supportive person in my life that was kind of a rock, like my rock of Gibraltar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:07:11] And so it was just a really lovely sort of full circle conversation and it got at some of the queer and trans history that these kids also wanted to know about from their elders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval \u003c/strong>[00:07:22] I think everyone should have a shrine in their life. Like an older role model who’s also your friend who you can tell anything and you know they won’t tell your parents unless you ask them to and call you when you need anything. And just having that mentor-friend combination is just so perfect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:07:47] The last two episodes are actually young people in conversation with transgender elders in their seventies who have seen the long arc of transgender history here in California and who have been through a lot and had a lot of wisdom to share with young people. And I think those are some of the most touching conversations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:08:15] I mean, were there any themes that really emerged from the conversations in this series?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:08:22] I mean, I think one of them is just intergenerational exchange.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne \u003c/strong>[00:08:26] America teaches us not to really care about our old folks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:08:31] I’m thinking of a conversation with Andrea Horne, who is she says she’s a woman of a certain age. She didn’t want to give her age. But she is a transgender elder here in San Francisco. She came to San Francisco from LA when she was fifteen to get away from her very unsupportive family. She was an actress, a model, a performer. She hung out with Sylvester in the 70s. And now she’s a historian who’s writing a book called How Black Trans Women Changed the World.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne \u003c/strong>[00:09:06] But before World War II, we were considered just part of the community. Mm-hmm. As long as you stay in your lane.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom \u003c/strong>[00:09:14] And what were those lanes?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne \u003c/strong>[00:09:15] The lanes were hairdresser.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom \u003c/strong>[00:09:17] Okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne \u003c/strong>[00:09:18] Sex work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom \u003c/strong>[00:09:19] Okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne \u003c/strong>[00:09:20] Work in a bar of some sort. A show girl and housewife. But you know, that’s kinda that’s it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:09:29] And to see her in conversation with a younger black trans woman named Zen Blossom, talking about women from the 1800s, women from the early 1900s who lived their true authentic lives and passing down that wisdom was very intense, very moving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:09:51] Was there any moment that in any of these conversations that you sat in on that like surprised you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:09:58] Yes, I am th I’m thinking of the ten year old transgender girl who came with her grandpa, who lives in a rural conservative county in Northern California, and her older sister who is sixteen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister \u003c/strong>[00:10:16] Popo what do you hope that the future is like for trans kids and what do you plan on doing to support trans kids?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa \u003c/strong>[00:10:25] Oh, I support this one all the time. I’d do anything for her and she knows that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:10:31] She was so funny and vivacious and great. And again, I was worried, how’s a ten year old gonna do in this studio with all these microphones? And she’s an actor and she’s a performer. And at one point in the interview sh as we were wrapping up, she’s like, By the way, if there are any agents out there listening and you need somebody to cast\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister \u003c/strong>[00:10:51] If I really want to be a child actor, if there’s any agents listening, hello, I’m here. Hi. But another thing is I would love to like this, I love how I get to like share knowledge to other people that might not know about being trans or stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:11:12] And another thing she did that was really surprising is when she was asked, you know, what do you do when you get bullied, she actually just burst into song.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister \u003c/strong>[00:11:19] They’re just doing it because they’re insecure about yourself and they just want to tear you down even though you’re a confident, amazing person and they’re not. So just walk away and say I’m better than you and sing your way out. That’s what I do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:11:39] So I guess what was most surprising to me was just how joyful and funny some of these kids were and their self-confidence. Sometimes transgender and non-binary kids, gender-expansive kids have to grow up a little bit faster because they’ve got to face the world that sometimes is hostile to them. Sometimes they have to make choices about gender-affirming care. A lot of decisions that sometimes make them have to, you know, have a level of maturity that we might not always see in other kids their age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:12:16] Right. Like an awareness of of who you are. I don’t I don’t think I was that fully formed when I was ten, for example. 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And also how people who may not have much connection with trans people at all are hearing the joy and the courage in these kids’ voices and really feeling moved by it.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] I’m Erica Cruz Guevara and welcome to the Bay, local news to keep you rooted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:00:05] Your adorable beanie baby beanie hat is so cute with the little bouncy thing on top of your headphones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:13] This is my colleague Sasha Khokha. She’s the host of the California Report magazine, a weekly show bringing in-depth storytelling and documentaries about our beautiful state. And I really wanted to talk with Sasha, who’s been thinking a lot lately, about trans kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:00:35] You know, I have a lot of amazing trans and non-binary kids in my life, and talking to those kids and talking to their families, I heard a lot of frustration that the media coverage of trans kids right now often doesn’t even include the voices of trans kids. And often flattens kids into just one dimension of their identity, which is their gender.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:03] For Sasha, these kids are so much more than that. They’re students, athletes, dancers, and siblings. And some are also thriving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:01:15] I think there’s a lot of power in hearing from parents, from grandparents, from elders who love and support transgender and non-binary kids so they can thrive, so they can find joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:33] So Sasha and her colleagues spent months putting together this series called Love You for You. Conversations between trans kids and the people who love them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child \u003c/strong>[00:01:47] Thanks for letting me be who I am.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother \u003c/strong>[00:01:49] Yeah. And thank you for letting me be your parent and for letting me love you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child \u003c/strong>[00:01:56] You’re welcome. (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:00] The series Love You for You features six conversations between trans and non-binary kids and their loved ones. And today we’re gonna talk with Sasha about being a fly on the wall to these conversations as the trans community is under attack. That’s coming up right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:32] We’re talking about your series for the California Report magazine. I wonder if you can actually just start by walking me through the the thinking behind your series, the why.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:02:43] The thinking was there’s a lot out there about trans kids being in the crosshairs of the Trump administration right now. But I think what’s really missing are stories of what it looks like when kids have love and support from their families and because of that are insulated a little bit from what’s happening in the outside world. That’s not to say that backdrop doesn’t exist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:12] Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:03:13] But I think there’s a lot of power in hearing from parents, from grandparents, from elders who love and support transgender and nonbinary kids so they can thrive, so they can find joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:31] And these were essentially sort of like StoryCorps style episodes where you’re not in it but you just hear these kids talking with these people who are important in their lives about who they are and why they love them and just these very sweet conversations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:03:50] Right, and that’s part of why we wanted to do these as conversations that could unfold naturally without me as the journalist coming to their house and sticking a microphone in their face and getting a sound bite or two from a kid. And we also really wanted to give these kids agency so they picked the adults or the other people they wanted to be in conversation with.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:17] With can you explain the range of people that we hear from in this series?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:04:23] So we start off with an eight year old non-binary kid in conversation with their mom. I like took this sock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child \u003c/strong>[00:04:31] I like to play soccer and read, and my family’s from Asia like Vietnam and Taiwan and my pronouns they them and I’m eight years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:04:43] And that was actually the first conversation we recorded. And it was kind of hard because the kid was really shy and was only eight and was a little bit soft spoken on the microphone. It was a little bit stuffed up, so it was like a little bit hard to understand them. And their voice is so cute. Yeah, and I thought, oh my gosh, how’s this gonna go? Like, how are we gonna do all of these? But honestly, I think once they got warmed up and their mom really made them feel comfortable, it was quite a sweet conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child \u003c/strong>[00:05:15] What are you most proud of about me?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother \u003c/strong>[00:05:19] That you knew when you were very young. You were only about four years old and you just kinda told me that you weren’t sure that you fit being either a boy or a girl, and you felt maybe like you were neither or both. And that was something for us to learn because we didn’t think kids that young knew that about themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:05:47] And especially about navigating pronouns with their Vietnamese and Taiwanese relatives because in some of their families’ home languages there are not gendered pronouns. And so it was just a really interesting conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother \u003c/strong>[00:06:03] And so for them everybody’s a they or they mix they mix he’s and she’s a lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child \u003c/strong>[00:06:09] Maybe like the future could just be like people accept they them or trans just as like would they accept she or he right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:06:28] In some cases the kids chose actually to bring in someone who was not blood related to them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval \u003c/strong>[00:06:33] Beyond you being my aunt, you’re one of my closest friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:06:37] One of the conversations was with sixteen year old Hunter Stoval, who decided to talk with his special auntie, whose name’s Shirin Amini. She actually came out as a lesbian in the nineteen nineties, and the first person she came out to was Hunter’s mom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini \u003c/strong>[00:06:56] I think honestly, that your mom was the most supportive person in my life that was kind of a rock, like my rock of Gibraltar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:07:11] And so it was just a really lovely sort of full circle conversation and it got at some of the queer and trans history that these kids also wanted to know about from their elders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval \u003c/strong>[00:07:22] I think everyone should have a shrine in their life. Like an older role model who’s also your friend who you can tell anything and you know they won’t tell your parents unless you ask them to and call you when you need anything. And just having that mentor-friend combination is just so perfect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:07:47] The last two episodes are actually young people in conversation with transgender elders in their seventies who have seen the long arc of transgender history here in California and who have been through a lot and had a lot of wisdom to share with young people. And I think those are some of the most touching conversations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:08:15] I mean, were there any themes that really emerged from the conversations in this series?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:08:22] I mean, I think one of them is just intergenerational exchange.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne \u003c/strong>[00:08:26] America teaches us not to really care about our old folks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:08:31] I’m thinking of a conversation with Andrea Horne, who is she says she’s a woman of a certain age. She didn’t want to give her age. But she is a transgender elder here in San Francisco. She came to San Francisco from LA when she was fifteen to get away from her very unsupportive family. She was an actress, a model, a performer. She hung out with Sylvester in the 70s. And now she’s a historian who’s writing a book called How Black Trans Women Changed the World.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne \u003c/strong>[00:09:06] But before World War II, we were considered just part of the community. Mm-hmm. As long as you stay in your lane.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom \u003c/strong>[00:09:14] And what were those lanes?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne \u003c/strong>[00:09:15] The lanes were hairdresser.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom \u003c/strong>[00:09:17] Okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne \u003c/strong>[00:09:18] Sex work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom \u003c/strong>[00:09:19] Okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne \u003c/strong>[00:09:20] Work in a bar of some sort. A show girl and housewife. But you know, that’s kinda that’s it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:09:29] And to see her in conversation with a younger black trans woman named Zen Blossom, talking about women from the 1800s, women from the early 1900s who lived their true authentic lives and passing down that wisdom was very intense, very moving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:09:51] Was there any moment that in any of these conversations that you sat in on that like surprised you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:09:58] Yes, I am th I’m thinking of the ten year old transgender girl who came with her grandpa, who lives in a rural conservative county in Northern California, and her older sister who is sixteen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister \u003c/strong>[00:10:16] Popo what do you hope that the future is like for trans kids and what do you plan on doing to support trans kids?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa \u003c/strong>[00:10:25] Oh, I support this one all the time. I’d do anything for her and she knows that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:10:31] She was so funny and vivacious and great. And again, I was worried, how’s a ten year old gonna do in this studio with all these microphones? And she’s an actor and she’s a performer. And at one point in the interview sh as we were wrapping up, she’s like, By the way, if there are any agents out there listening and you need somebody to cast\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister \u003c/strong>[00:10:51] If I really want to be a child actor, if there’s any agents listening, hello, I’m here. Hi. But another thing is I would love to like this, I love how I get to like share knowledge to other people that might not know about being trans or stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:11:12] And another thing she did that was really surprising is when she was asked, you know, what do you do when you get bullied, she actually just burst into song.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister \u003c/strong>[00:11:19] They’re just doing it because they’re insecure about yourself and they just want to tear you down even though you’re a confident, amazing person and they’re not. So just walk away and say I’m better than you and sing your way out. That’s what I do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:11:39] So I guess what was most surprising to me was just how joyful and funny some of these kids were and their self-confidence. Sometimes transgender and non-binary kids, gender-expansive kids have to grow up a little bit faster because they’ve got to face the world that sometimes is hostile to them. Sometimes they have to make choices about gender-affirming care. A lot of decisions that sometimes make them have to, you know, have a level of maturity that we might not always see in other kids their age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:12:16] Right. Like an awareness of of who you are. I don’t I don’t think I was that fully formed when I was ten, for example. But yeah\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:12:28] There’s authenticity in who these kids are because they’ve had to fight for who they are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:12:35] What was your main takeaway from from sitting in these conversations, Sasha, and and working on this series?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha \u003c/strong>[00:12:44] When we first thought about this series, I wanted to have something that parents of trans and non-binary kids could listen to with their kids. That was sort of the focus audience. But as we’ve put the episodes out and we’re hearing from people, it’s been actually so moving to hear how adults are connecting with the content and adults who may be in the trans community and not connected to young people in their lives are seeing themselves reflected. And also how people who may not have much connection with trans people at all are hearing the joy and the courage in these kids’ voices and really feeling moved by it.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Celebrating a ‘Long Lost History’ of California’s Black Trans Trailblazers",
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"headTitle": "Celebrating a ‘Long Lost History’ of California’s Black Trans Trailblazers | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the last few weeks, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">\u003cem>The California Report Magazine\u003c/em>\u003c/a> has been sharing conversations between transgender and nonbinary kids and the people in their lives who love and support them — a series called \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12061805/introducing-love-you-for-you-conversations-between-trans-kids-and-their-loved-ones\">\u003cem>Love You for You.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, we’re shifting the lens toward intergenerational stories — young people in their twenties\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063889/californias-trans-elders-share-decades-of-wisdom-and-advice-with-younger-generations\"> in conversation with transgender elders\u003c/a> whose lives trace the long arc of LGBTQ+ activism in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These bonus episodes carry heavier histories and more mature themes than the family conversations featured earlier in the series. They offer deeper context to the ongoing fight for safety, dignity and self-expression.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1577896821\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week’s story brings together Zen Blossom, a 26-year-old Black transgender rights activist at TGIJP, or the Miss Major Alexander E. Lee \u003ca href=\"https://tgijp.org/\">Transgender Gender-Variant & Intersex Justice Project\u003c/a> in San Francisco, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.sf.gov/profile--andrea-horne\">Andrea Horne\u003c/a>, a San Francisco-based actress, model and jazz singer who was a part of legendary disco artist Sylvester’s entourage in the 1970s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now a historian working on her forthcoming book, \u003cem>How Black Trans Women Changed the World,\u003c/em> Andrea reflects with Zen on those who came before them and those who will come after.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063827\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063827\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne shows Zen Blossom a photo of Crystal LaBeija in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. LaBeija was a drag queen and trans woman born in the 1930s who helped influence ball culture and became a mother figure for homeless LGBTQ+ youth. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Hey, you’re listening to the California Report Magazine. I’m Sasha Khokha. And as you may know, it’s Transgender Awareness Month. For the last few weeks, we’ve been bringing you conversations between gender-expansive kids and the people in their lives who love and support them so they can thrive. We called the series called, “Love You for You.”[aside postID=news_12063889 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-30-KQED.jpg']And now we’re bringing you two bonus episodes of young people in their 20s interviewing transgender elders who are trailblazers when it comes to LGBTQ+ activism here in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just a heads up, these intergenerational conversations carry heavier histories and more mature themes than the ones we’ve been diving into with the family conversations in \u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em>. So parents, you might want to listen before deciding whether to share with your kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode, we’re gonna meet Andrea Horne, an actress, model and singer who also spent decades as a social worker. And Zen Blossom, who works at TGIJP, a Black trans cultural center and services organization in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Peace, everyone. My name is Zen. I use she-her pronouns. I am currently 26 and I reside in Oakland. I am born and raised in Los Angeles, six generations my family’s been in California.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nAndrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, my name is Andrea, and my pronouns are Her/she, like the chocolate candy bar.\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Love that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>I’m a woman of a certain age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Period.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Period. And I’m originally from L.A. myself, but I lived in San Francisco longer than I lived in L.A. But I still feel like I’m from L.A., even though I’ve lived here over 40 years in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063828\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063828\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1412\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED-160x113.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED-1536x1084.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne points to a photo of Sweet Evening Breeze, center, a Black trans woman born in 1982, on her laptop at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. Andrea is working on a book called “How Black Trans Women Changed the World.” \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Andrea moved to San Francisco in part because she was friends with Sylvester, the disco artist and singer who’s become a queer icon. These days, Andrea’s a historian, working on a book called \u003cem>How Black Trans Women Changed the World\u003c/em> — focused on women who lived from 1836–1936. Andrea shares some of that history and her own history in this conversation with Zen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They start by talking about how they both left Los Angeles because they had unsupportive families. Andrea was only 15 when she ran away from home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Fades \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I felt like there has been a long-lost history in a sense of the connections between Los Angeles, San Francisco and trans people migrating up and down. I just love hearing about your story, you being from L.A. and self-determining for yourself that you need to get out and figure out some other things for yourself at such a young age, 15.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, I was just following behind the girls that came before me, and I feel, since I’ve been working in the social work field with trans people for the last 25 years, I realized that I was lucky to have what we call a drag mother, someone to help me see my way through. I love your lips, by the way. (Laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063825\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063825\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne shows a photo of a Black trans woman named Kate, parading in front of a group of San Quentin prisoners in 1925, on her phone in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so I could tell you a little bit about my background, I guess. My mother’s people are from Louisiana and my father’s people are from Texas. And they moved to California during World War II. And my mother’s father was a Pullman porter. I don’t know if you know about the histories of the Pullman porters in America, but the Pullman porters created the black middle class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>What was their role for people who don’t know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Pullman porters were like flight attendants on trains.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And it was all handsome black men. I know that was some probably gay guy during the hiring or something, because they were all handsome, educated black men.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063824\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063824\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne, a performer, historian and activist poses for a photo with her 4-year-old Pomeranian Mei-Mei, outside of her home in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>My family is from Texas, too. My grandma got here in the ‘20s with her mom and her grandma. They took the 66 all the way up to like the northern middle part of California and then came down to Los Angeles. But they stopped in Delano for a second. But a lot of the folks that she worked with were like in the factories and things and doing the canning and the industries, especially during the world wars and stuff, she was doing the canning and stuff. So it’s just interesting to see, like, how, regardless of different class backgrounds, too, that the migration affected like black people as a whole still. There’s a type of racism that happens that doesn’t allow people to escape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Interestingly, the Black people that stayed in the South are like runnin’ it. You know, they’re in every office, everything, which I find amusing. They stayed there. My mother’s from New Orleans, and she went to Xavier College, which is a black Catholic, HBCU Catholic. My whole family went to those. My father, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>OK. I was gonna ask my next question was like, what was that process trying to invite them into your life, as you, or maybe not invite them into your life?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>They’ve never been in my life since I transitioned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I think that’s why it’s really important to speak to like, chosen family too. And like why it important that you had your drag mom there around you to support you in these really difficult times. What was the name of your chosen mom?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Her name is Duchess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Duchess? OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And then there was Eva, her best friend, my kind of drag auntie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>And how old were you when you met them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> I was 15. And Duchess was in her 20s. And Eva was in her twenties as well. And they kind of took me in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>How did y’all meet?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s an interesting story. It was summer vacation. I was 15. And my mother had become kind of a psycho about my transgenderism. It drove her mad. I was with my friends from high school, and my friends are like saying you don’t have to take that from her. You know, you’re be your own person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So we were at Venice Beach and when it got dark, they all went home for dinner and left me sitting at Venice Beach. And so that empty feeling of having nowhere to go had stayed with me. So anyway, I sat there an hour not knowing what to do. I just had on. I didn’t even have a jacket. It was summer in L.A. One of my friends came back. Thank God. And. Said, let me take you to my cousin. And so my trans girlfriend from high school brought me to her cousin, named Duchess, who ended up being my drag mother. And we looked similar, so we could say we were sisters. And the moment I met her and she looked me up and down and she said, “Do you want titties?” I said, “Yes, ma’am.” And she reached in her pocket and she pulled out this hormone pill, a premarin pill, purple. It was like bitten in two, and it had lint and dust and grease and tobacco all clinging to it, and I didn’t care. I just inhaled it. And in the morning, I thought I was gonna be Dolly Parton. But I wasn’t. (Laughs) Dolly Parton takes years, but I didn’t know that at the time. However, my drag mother, we’ll just call her Duchess. She did sex work, survival sex work. That’s all she knew. She got kicked out of her house when she was my age. And after I met her, I think probably within an hour, I was doing sex work. But not real sex work because Duchess’ thing was to not turn the trick, to get the money and run or something like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And so we did a lot of times that I learned how to run in five-inch heels from the tricks, from the police, jumping over back fences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Changing outfits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Changing outfits. It wasn’t it was it was quite wild. It’s a miracle I survived it. However, duchess like me, during the quiet moments, we just sat around and read. And she liked to read, I liked to read. From 1987 to 2007, I read a book a week. That’s 30 years. I read a book a week. You know, I mostly read biographies and autobiographies from people that I admired to see how they did it. Not how they did stardom, but how they got from where they started to becoming a star. That fascinates me. But as soon as I got my first laptop in 2007, I stopped reading a book a week, so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Thank you to the internet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yes, thanks to the internet. So you asked me about my family, what about yours? How did they support your transition?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Oh my goodness. Absolutely not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Are they church people?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Yes, very much so. Grew up in the church. Grew with a lot of that, a lot of reading the Bible. I read the Bible multiple times. I still hold it dear to me in certain ways, aspects. And in other ways, I push it very, very far away. I definitely identify with growing up with my grandmas a lot more than my immediate parents. I felt like my grandmas kept me safe a lot better and they knew what was happening. And so I was with them until they both passed away, unfortunately, when I was 10. And then it was pretty rough, and then I ended up leaving and going to college away from family at 18, and that’s when I was able to like really be myself, explore myself. Do those things, and that was my way out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Where’d you go to school?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I went to school on the East Coast. I wanted to get as far as possible. I was very fortunate that I got a full ride because I also got a full ride for high school to also get away from my family and went to a private school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So, do you talk to your family?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I’m not in connection with them, besides my great-grandma. And that was a really cool thing for me because during the pandemic, when I stayed with her for a little bit, we were discussing and talking about, like just all the things. And she was teaching me how to sew. And when we were sewing, she was like, “Oh, do you want,” um, it was a dress that you would match. It was a robe, essentially, so you would either put the buttons on the left side or the right side. And she was like, ‘Which side are you gonna put it on?’ And for her, you know, depending on which side you have it on, that’s cross-dressing, you know, against the law. So she was trying to ask me what my tea was, essentially.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Because she did my measurements and it said, like, you know, 40-36-42, you know, so I had the, I had a figure. And so she was already like, no, clocking certain things here and there with me. She was like, “OK, so you have breasts. OK. So which side is this supposed to go on?” And then when we were sewing it together, she was just like, “You know what, this reminds me. Of when I was growing up, off of Central, and there’s someone that you remind me of,” and it was Lady Java.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so that was a really powerful moment for me to know that we’ve always been here, and that there’s also points for people, especially the older generations, to still connect with us, because people think … That, oh, just because you’re older, that means you don’t have exposure to it. And it’s just very interesting for me that the older people in my life actually had more experience with transness than the people who were closer to me in age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003cbr>\n\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I thought it was really cool that my great grandma had an understanding of what could be read as transness with Lady Java without having the exact words for it. And so I would love for you to share more about the prolific work of Lady Java.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, her stage name was Sir Lady Java, and she was incredibly important to me, and incredibly important to all the other sort of black trans women in Los Angeles, because she was the queen. And why was she the queen? Well, she was a glamour girl associated with celebrities. And I know in L.A., that’s important. But she’s really famous for her activist work that kind of goes unrecognized.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But she was performer, a showgirl. And she kept getting arrested as a female impersonator because that was illegal. And it gave the police the right to arrest you if they perceived that you may be trans in quotation marks. And so you had to, one had to wear three clothes, if you were a trans woman, you had wear three pieces of men’s clothing. And I remember Java told me that she wore a man’s wristwatch and a T-shirt under her mini dress and men’s socks, but she had them rolled down like Mary Jane’s. And so that’s how she could not get arrested. But she did get arrested whenever she appeared at Black clubs. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Off of Central.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, off Central. And so, but she fought in the courts with the ACLU, so that cross-dressing quote was not illegal any longer. And she fought, and it took years, and I think she lost the first couple of times, but they kept at it. And the law was changed, and it made an incredible difference for trans people everywhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It set a precedent, a nationwide precedent, that cross-dressing or drag was OK. The police, when it became legal, they had to kind of back up off black trans women who they normally harassed on a regular basis. And so her activist work changed the lives of all queer people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, a white gay man might not know that it was Sir Lady Java that did that, but it’s always been black trans woman leading the call. I guess that’s just our karma. and now we can be who we want to be. But as a little trans child growing up in L.A., I would see her name, Sir Lady Java, up in marquees, theater marquees. And so I knew what she was.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Yeah, so Java passed away this year, actually \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/18/arts/sir-lady-java-dead.html\">late last year\u003c/a>. And I went to her memorial service in Los Angeles, but she was important. I realized that’s another privilege I had. I didn’t realize I didn’t grow up in isolation in a small country town where I had no point of reference. I grew up in the city and I saw her name in marquees, so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Even like growing up in a rural town or something. ‘Cause for me, I like, I grew up in Los Angeles and I still didn’t have access to Lady Java until after the fact, you know, after. And so it was just like, that’s also a really big thing that is like, that I feel like people need to understand about California that it’s like a golden state. Like it’s this progressive place, but also it can be very unsafe. For trans kids at homes that are unsupportive. I wish I knew about Lady Java and everything growing up because if I did, I probably would have invited more people into my life a lot earlier on. But you know. (Dog barks) But that’s not how life goes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And Mei Mei, sitting here, my little five-pound mocha chocolate little Pomeranian, she’s sitting in my lap, she just barked a little bit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> She’s really cute, y’all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, she is really cute. It’s been five minutes since someone told her she was cute, so just like her mother. Right, right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>I find that since I’ve been doing the research for a book I’m working on about black trans women called, the working title is \u003cem>How Black Trans Women Changed the World\u003c/em>, I’ve found that people were so much more tolerant about queer issues before World War II. Right, and it changed after World War II with the sort of the conservatism of the 50s and the civil rights movement. I think really kind of turned the tide for trans people, we’ll just use that word.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> In quotations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>In quotations because there was no such thing as trans people a few years ago. My drag mother and auntie still don’t let me refer to them as that. They just live their lives as women. But yeah, it flipped, the script flipped from tolerance to being really intolerant and even violent towards us. But before World War II, we were considered just part of the community. As long as you stay in your lane.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>And what were those lanes?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>The lanes were a hairdresser.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Sex work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Work in a bar of some sort, a show girl and housewife. You know, that’s kind of, that’s it. That was all available to us. I remember a girl from my crowd. She got a job at the phone company. I was astounded. I didn’t know that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>The girls could do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>The girls could get jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So you were asking me about my book and I’m kind of focusing on three black trans women that were born before 1900.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>But I’ll talk about Lucy Hicks Anderson the most, because she’s my favorite. And she was accomplished. And her story is super unique, I think. She was born in 18, circa 1890. She told her family that her name was no longer Tobias, that her name was Lucy and to call her Lucy. And remarkably, her parents brought her to the doctor, two doctors, and both doctors said, “Just call her Lucy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Right. And this speaks back to what you were saying earlier, how there was a lot more tolerance for us back in the day and awareness around us possibly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, people seem to understand that trans is part of the human condition. But now they’re trying to sell it as something weird that just kind of happened in the 21st century.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, the trans turning point with Laverne (Cox).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, now they’re trying to sell the public that transgenderism is something new. It wasn’t called that before. So when I was growing up, the girls called themselves drag queens. But now drag queens is the domain of gay men.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And so Lucy, getting back to Lucy, love her. She was a gourmet chef and a madam, and then she met her husband, her second husband, and they moved to Oxnard because she always wanted to move to California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> Makes sense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So she decided on Oxnard, which is about midways between Santa Monica and Santa Barbara, coastal. And she stayed there for 35 years and she ran a catering business and a brothel. And she was a bootlegger during the ‘20s. And she was a fashion plate and so she became the darling of the wives of the heads of studios.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Someone knew her from her past and told that she wasn’t assigned female at birth. They ran her out of Oxnard. But she was smart with her money and she’d bought a couple of houses over by Central Avenue in Los Angeles. And that’s where she moved to and she spent her last days there quietly. But she did so much that she changed people’s minds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that is why I admire her so much, that she had the wherewithal to sort of just live her authentic life. In retrospect, it takes courage to live your authentic life, which is why I think a lot of non-trans people hate trans people, because we have the courage to live our authentic lives. And a lot of people are envious of that ability.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> She was a philanthropist too, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>During World War II, she gave $50,000 in war bonds, which is a couple million dollars today. So she loved America and she loved her life, but they wouldn’t let her just live her life out. So I wanna tell her story because it needs to be told.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> It does. She was stealth. What does that mean?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Stealth is a relatively new term. And I think it’s a white term, but it means being a trans person living in your true gender without people knowing about it. Passing, as they call it. That’s what stealth is. And I myself lived stealth from age 15, from that first hormone pill I told you about, until I was 50. I never denied my transness, but it just wasn’t on display. It wasn’t open for discussion. Yeah, it just wasn’t opened for discussion and I just had a regular little job and a husband and so I was just living my life like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Something happened like that to me in San Francisco in the ‘90s. I was working in an office downtown. And someone I know, I saw in the building. I don’t know who he told, but he told my tea. And when I came back from lunch, the police and the building security guards were standing at my desk. And they handed me my paycheck and escorted me out. No words were spoken, and they escorted me out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And the girl I had just had lunch with, she was screaming at the top of her lungs, “I just had lunch with it. Arrrh!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Hmmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Now, that was over 30 years ago, and that wouldn’t happen today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So when I first met Sylvester.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> Right. How old were you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> I was 15. Sylvester was in his early 20s. And I went to my first kind of queer party and there were lots of trans women and men there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>OK, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And I thought that Sylvester, or Dooney, was a real woman, which is so fascinating, because years later, you would think it’s impossible. But I’ll show you a picture on my phone, he was flawless. But I moved here partly because of Sylvester, because I knew him in L.A. And I just kept coming up to visit and I got a modeling job through Sylvester. So I had to get an apartment, and that was in 1979. I got my first apartment in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>How much was rent?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>My rent was $200.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>A month?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Hmm-mm. But yeah, Sylvester kind of changed the world. Sylvester sort of invented this sort of non-binary genderqueer thing that’s very popular right now. But Sylvester was the first one sort of publicly doing that. You know, he was a boy one day and a girl the next and a mustache the next and smooth shaving the next. And, you know, eventually became a star, really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>No it’s so cool hearing about your story, especially with Sylvester at such a young age, holding you down, because really Sylvester is prolific here in San Francisco: huge musician, queer icon and a lot of folks don’t know this history about their gender queerness, possibly like non-binaryness and we can’t erase that and be simple in how we see gender or our community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>You know, I agree with you on that. It’s just that gay men have claimed Sylvester. But he also started as a trans woman, and I think that should be part of his story also, because that’s what really happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Right. You talked a bit about the conversation around just having to be stealth and not wanting to disclose because it’s honestly not people’s business, so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> True.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>How do you think that’s similar to now? Versus then.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>I think that for all the trans people that are out professing their transness, there’s just as equally as many trans people who are still living stealth. And I don’t think they have any plans on coming out, especially now, with the political climate the way it is. I want to go back stealth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> You would, or would not?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> I want to, but I’m on the internet now, so I can’t, but, you know, it’s scary times for us now, and things have gotten better for trans folks, but black trans women are still getting (beep) over.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And are restricted and precluded from resources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Even here in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Even here in San Francisco, yes. San Francisco is fabulous if you’re a white gay man. It is Disneyland with the A-ticket and the Matterhorn and all of that, but for the rest of us, it’s just America. M-E-R-K-K-K-A. Oh, I forgot an I in there somewhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so just know that as many trans people that you see on TV and Pose and everyone’s twerking and all that, there’s just as many people that are living stealth lives in the suburbs married. So when you hear people say, “I’ve never used the bathroom with somebody trans!” You probably have. They probably have, but.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Many a times.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Many a times. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>What advice do you have for Black trans girls today, especially for like building sisterhood?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Stay in school, that’s that’s your way out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: Blossom:\u003c/strong> Mmm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that’s my message to young Black trans women, stay at school. And if you’re a teenager and they’re bullying you at school because you’re trans, you’re not gonna remember those (beep) in five years. You won’t even remember their names or their faces or anything. The people that bullied me when I was in high school, I wish somebody had told me, you’re not even going to remember them. But when you’re a teen, the present is everything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: Blossom:\u003c/strong> Yes, yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> And you haven’t yet developed the ability to kind of foresee in the future. And so it’s all immediate. And the message is it will pass, you’ll survive it, and you won’t even remember them. Just stay in school, educate yourself. That’s undeniable. Stay in school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Go as far as you can in school and my dream, my lottery-winning dream is to have a scholarship fund for black trans women. I had a dear friend named Dana Turner, who was a Black trans woman who went to Georgetown Law School, which is pretty impressive. I want to have it in, in her name.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> Dana Turner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Dana Turner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Well, it’s been rewarding at the very least to get immersed in the history and the knowledge and the lineage of the work. And also that we have so many different folks to look to and different possibility models there’s ones as philanthropists, we have people who are cooks. We have people who are going to law school. We have who read books every week for 30 years. We have our different miniature worlds that we can create for ourselves and curate. It takes a lot of investment, but in the long term, it’s worth it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, I think, Zen, it’s important that we have conversations like this, because America teaches us not to really care about our old folks. As trans folks, we want to start a new model, an intergenerational model, an interaction where we really support and help each other. I want to see us moving in that direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>For the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>For the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>For us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Yeah, for the girls. We’re saving lives here. Yeah. Yeah. We’ve got to save lives, and we got to let people know that transgender is nothing new. It’s always been part of the human condition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>All the way back to Africa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>All the way back to Africa, all the way to Africa. It’s interesting how contemporary Africans say that there’s no queers, there’s no African queers. But of course that’s not true. But Europeans brought, they didn’t bring queerness, they brought …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: and Andrea Horne together:\u003c/strong> homophobia and transphobia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>It was good continuing to build with you, Andrea, and you, Mei Mei. I will never forget. Don’t worry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, I hope this is just the first conversation of many, because we really just scratched the surface.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> We really did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Continues\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Transgender elder Andrea Horne, in conversation with Zen Blossom, a 26-year-old transgender activist from Oakland who works with the TGIJP Black Trans Cultural Center. The center was founded by Miss Major, a trailblazing Black trans activist and who passed away this fall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that’s it for TCR Mag for this week. This interview was produced by me, Sasha Khokha with Srishti Prabha and Suzie Racho with help this week from Gabriela Glueck. Our senior editor is Victoria Mauleon. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Special thanks to Tuck Woodstock, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.genderpodcast.com/\">Gender Reveal\u003c/a> podcast for his help on this episode. And to KQED’s Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ana de Almeida Amaral and Anna Vignet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And by the way, if you didn’t catch our series on trans and nonbinary youth and people who love them, check out our \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/love-you-for-you\">Love You for You\u003c/a> series on our podcast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">The California Report Magazine\u003c/a>. Your State, Your Stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Fades Out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the last few weeks, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">\u003cem>The California Report Magazine\u003c/em>\u003c/a> has been sharing conversations between transgender and nonbinary kids and the people in their lives who love and support them — a series called \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12061805/introducing-love-you-for-you-conversations-between-trans-kids-and-their-loved-ones\">\u003cem>Love You for You.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, we’re shifting the lens toward intergenerational stories — young people in their twenties\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063889/californias-trans-elders-share-decades-of-wisdom-and-advice-with-younger-generations\"> in conversation with transgender elders\u003c/a> whose lives trace the long arc of LGBTQ+ activism in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These bonus episodes carry heavier histories and more mature themes than the family conversations featured earlier in the series. They offer deeper context to the ongoing fight for safety, dignity and self-expression.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1577896821\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week’s story brings together Zen Blossom, a 26-year-old Black transgender rights activist at TGIJP, or the Miss Major Alexander E. Lee \u003ca href=\"https://tgijp.org/\">Transgender Gender-Variant & Intersex Justice Project\u003c/a> in San Francisco, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.sf.gov/profile--andrea-horne\">Andrea Horne\u003c/a>, a San Francisco-based actress, model and jazz singer who was a part of legendary disco artist Sylvester’s entourage in the 1970s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now a historian working on her forthcoming book, \u003cem>How Black Trans Women Changed the World,\u003c/em> Andrea reflects with Zen on those who came before them and those who will come after.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063827\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063827\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-41-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne shows Zen Blossom a photo of Crystal LaBeija in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. LaBeija was a drag queen and trans woman born in the 1930s who helped influence ball culture and became a mother figure for homeless LGBTQ+ youth. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Hey, you’re listening to the California Report Magazine. I’m Sasha Khokha. And as you may know, it’s Transgender Awareness Month. For the last few weeks, we’ve been bringing you conversations between gender-expansive kids and the people in their lives who love and support them so they can thrive. We called the series called, “Love You for You.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>And now we’re bringing you two bonus episodes of young people in their 20s interviewing transgender elders who are trailblazers when it comes to LGBTQ+ activism here in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just a heads up, these intergenerational conversations carry heavier histories and more mature themes than the ones we’ve been diving into with the family conversations in \u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em>. So parents, you might want to listen before deciding whether to share with your kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode, we’re gonna meet Andrea Horne, an actress, model and singer who also spent decades as a social worker. And Zen Blossom, who works at TGIJP, a Black trans cultural center and services organization in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Peace, everyone. My name is Zen. I use she-her pronouns. I am currently 26 and I reside in Oakland. I am born and raised in Los Angeles, six generations my family’s been in California.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nAndrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, my name is Andrea, and my pronouns are Her/she, like the chocolate candy bar.\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Love that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>I’m a woman of a certain age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Period.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Period. And I’m originally from L.A. myself, but I lived in San Francisco longer than I lived in L.A. But I still feel like I’m from L.A., even though I’ve lived here over 40 years in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063828\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063828\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1412\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED-160x113.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-49-KQED-1536x1084.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne points to a photo of Sweet Evening Breeze, center, a Black trans woman born in 1982, on her laptop at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. Andrea is working on a book called “How Black Trans Women Changed the World.” \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Andrea moved to San Francisco in part because she was friends with Sylvester, the disco artist and singer who’s become a queer icon. These days, Andrea’s a historian, working on a book called \u003cem>How Black Trans Women Changed the World\u003c/em> — focused on women who lived from 1836–1936. Andrea shares some of that history and her own history in this conversation with Zen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They start by talking about how they both left Los Angeles because they had unsupportive families. Andrea was only 15 when she ran away from home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Fades \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I felt like there has been a long-lost history in a sense of the connections between Los Angeles, San Francisco and trans people migrating up and down. I just love hearing about your story, you being from L.A. and self-determining for yourself that you need to get out and figure out some other things for yourself at such a young age, 15.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, I was just following behind the girls that came before me, and I feel, since I’ve been working in the social work field with trans people for the last 25 years, I realized that I was lucky to have what we call a drag mother, someone to help me see my way through. I love your lips, by the way. (Laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063825\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063825\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-37-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne shows a photo of a Black trans woman named Kate, parading in front of a group of San Quentin prisoners in 1925, on her phone in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so I could tell you a little bit about my background, I guess. My mother’s people are from Louisiana and my father’s people are from Texas. And they moved to California during World War II. And my mother’s father was a Pullman porter. I don’t know if you know about the histories of the Pullman porters in America, but the Pullman porters created the black middle class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>What was their role for people who don’t know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Pullman porters were like flight attendants on trains.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And it was all handsome black men. I know that was some probably gay guy during the hiring or something, because they were all handsome, educated black men.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063824\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063824\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-32-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Andrea Horne, a performer, historian and activist poses for a photo with her 4-year-old Pomeranian Mei-Mei, outside of her home in San Francisco on Nov. 7, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>My family is from Texas, too. My grandma got here in the ‘20s with her mom and her grandma. They took the 66 all the way up to like the northern middle part of California and then came down to Los Angeles. But they stopped in Delano for a second. But a lot of the folks that she worked with were like in the factories and things and doing the canning and the industries, especially during the world wars and stuff, she was doing the canning and stuff. So it’s just interesting to see, like, how, regardless of different class backgrounds, too, that the migration affected like black people as a whole still. There’s a type of racism that happens that doesn’t allow people to escape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Interestingly, the Black people that stayed in the South are like runnin’ it. You know, they’re in every office, everything, which I find amusing. They stayed there. My mother’s from New Orleans, and she went to Xavier College, which is a black Catholic, HBCU Catholic. My whole family went to those. My father, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>OK. I was gonna ask my next question was like, what was that process trying to invite them into your life, as you, or maybe not invite them into your life?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>They’ve never been in my life since I transitioned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I think that’s why it’s really important to speak to like, chosen family too. And like why it important that you had your drag mom there around you to support you in these really difficult times. What was the name of your chosen mom?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Her name is Duchess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Duchess? OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And then there was Eva, her best friend, my kind of drag auntie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>And how old were you when you met them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> I was 15. And Duchess was in her 20s. And Eva was in her twenties as well. And they kind of took me in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>How did y’all meet?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s an interesting story. It was summer vacation. I was 15. And my mother had become kind of a psycho about my transgenderism. It drove her mad. I was with my friends from high school, and my friends are like saying you don’t have to take that from her. You know, you’re be your own person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So we were at Venice Beach and when it got dark, they all went home for dinner and left me sitting at Venice Beach. And so that empty feeling of having nowhere to go had stayed with me. So anyway, I sat there an hour not knowing what to do. I just had on. I didn’t even have a jacket. It was summer in L.A. One of my friends came back. Thank God. And. Said, let me take you to my cousin. And so my trans girlfriend from high school brought me to her cousin, named Duchess, who ended up being my drag mother. And we looked similar, so we could say we were sisters. And the moment I met her and she looked me up and down and she said, “Do you want titties?” I said, “Yes, ma’am.” And she reached in her pocket and she pulled out this hormone pill, a premarin pill, purple. It was like bitten in two, and it had lint and dust and grease and tobacco all clinging to it, and I didn’t care. I just inhaled it. And in the morning, I thought I was gonna be Dolly Parton. But I wasn’t. (Laughs) Dolly Parton takes years, but I didn’t know that at the time. However, my drag mother, we’ll just call her Duchess. She did sex work, survival sex work. That’s all she knew. She got kicked out of her house when she was my age. And after I met her, I think probably within an hour, I was doing sex work. But not real sex work because Duchess’ thing was to not turn the trick, to get the money and run or something like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And so we did a lot of times that I learned how to run in five-inch heels from the tricks, from the police, jumping over back fences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Changing outfits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Changing outfits. It wasn’t it was it was quite wild. It’s a miracle I survived it. However, duchess like me, during the quiet moments, we just sat around and read. And she liked to read, I liked to read. From 1987 to 2007, I read a book a week. That’s 30 years. I read a book a week. You know, I mostly read biographies and autobiographies from people that I admired to see how they did it. Not how they did stardom, but how they got from where they started to becoming a star. That fascinates me. But as soon as I got my first laptop in 2007, I stopped reading a book a week, so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Thank you to the internet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yes, thanks to the internet. So you asked me about my family, what about yours? How did they support your transition?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Oh my goodness. Absolutely not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Are they church people?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Yes, very much so. Grew up in the church. Grew with a lot of that, a lot of reading the Bible. I read the Bible multiple times. I still hold it dear to me in certain ways, aspects. And in other ways, I push it very, very far away. I definitely identify with growing up with my grandmas a lot more than my immediate parents. I felt like my grandmas kept me safe a lot better and they knew what was happening. And so I was with them until they both passed away, unfortunately, when I was 10. And then it was pretty rough, and then I ended up leaving and going to college away from family at 18, and that’s when I was able to like really be myself, explore myself. Do those things, and that was my way out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Where’d you go to school?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I went to school on the East Coast. I wanted to get as far as possible. I was very fortunate that I got a full ride because I also got a full ride for high school to also get away from my family and went to a private school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So, do you talk to your family?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I’m not in connection with them, besides my great-grandma. And that was a really cool thing for me because during the pandemic, when I stayed with her for a little bit, we were discussing and talking about, like just all the things. And she was teaching me how to sew. And when we were sewing, she was like, “Oh, do you want,” um, it was a dress that you would match. It was a robe, essentially, so you would either put the buttons on the left side or the right side. And she was like, ‘Which side are you gonna put it on?’ And for her, you know, depending on which side you have it on, that’s cross-dressing, you know, against the law. So she was trying to ask me what my tea was, essentially.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Because she did my measurements and it said, like, you know, 40-36-42, you know, so I had the, I had a figure. And so she was already like, no, clocking certain things here and there with me. She was like, “OK, so you have breasts. OK. So which side is this supposed to go on?” And then when we were sewing it together, she was just like, “You know what, this reminds me. Of when I was growing up, off of Central, and there’s someone that you remind me of,” and it was Lady Java.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so that was a really powerful moment for me to know that we’ve always been here, and that there’s also points for people, especially the older generations, to still connect with us, because people think … That, oh, just because you’re older, that means you don’t have exposure to it. And it’s just very interesting for me that the older people in my life actually had more experience with transness than the people who were closer to me in age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003cbr>\n\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>I thought it was really cool that my great grandma had an understanding of what could be read as transness with Lady Java without having the exact words for it. And so I would love for you to share more about the prolific work of Lady Java.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, her stage name was Sir Lady Java, and she was incredibly important to me, and incredibly important to all the other sort of black trans women in Los Angeles, because she was the queen. And why was she the queen? Well, she was a glamour girl associated with celebrities. And I know in L.A., that’s important. But she’s really famous for her activist work that kind of goes unrecognized.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But she was performer, a showgirl. And she kept getting arrested as a female impersonator because that was illegal. And it gave the police the right to arrest you if they perceived that you may be trans in quotation marks. And so you had to, one had to wear three clothes, if you were a trans woman, you had wear three pieces of men’s clothing. And I remember Java told me that she wore a man’s wristwatch and a T-shirt under her mini dress and men’s socks, but she had them rolled down like Mary Jane’s. And so that’s how she could not get arrested. But she did get arrested whenever she appeared at Black clubs. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Off of Central.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, off Central. And so, but she fought in the courts with the ACLU, so that cross-dressing quote was not illegal any longer. And she fought, and it took years, and I think she lost the first couple of times, but they kept at it. And the law was changed, and it made an incredible difference for trans people everywhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It set a precedent, a nationwide precedent, that cross-dressing or drag was OK. The police, when it became legal, they had to kind of back up off black trans women who they normally harassed on a regular basis. And so her activist work changed the lives of all queer people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, a white gay man might not know that it was Sir Lady Java that did that, but it’s always been black trans woman leading the call. I guess that’s just our karma. and now we can be who we want to be. But as a little trans child growing up in L.A., I would see her name, Sir Lady Java, up in marquees, theater marquees. And so I knew what she was.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Yeah, so Java passed away this year, actually \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/18/arts/sir-lady-java-dead.html\">late last year\u003c/a>. And I went to her memorial service in Los Angeles, but she was important. I realized that’s another privilege I had. I didn’t realize I didn’t grow up in isolation in a small country town where I had no point of reference. I grew up in the city and I saw her name in marquees, so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Even like growing up in a rural town or something. ‘Cause for me, I like, I grew up in Los Angeles and I still didn’t have access to Lady Java until after the fact, you know, after. And so it was just like, that’s also a really big thing that is like, that I feel like people need to understand about California that it’s like a golden state. Like it’s this progressive place, but also it can be very unsafe. For trans kids at homes that are unsupportive. I wish I knew about Lady Java and everything growing up because if I did, I probably would have invited more people into my life a lot earlier on. But you know. (Dog barks) But that’s not how life goes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And Mei Mei, sitting here, my little five-pound mocha chocolate little Pomeranian, she’s sitting in my lap, she just barked a little bit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> She’s really cute, y’all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, she is really cute. It’s been five minutes since someone told her she was cute, so just like her mother. Right, right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>I find that since I’ve been doing the research for a book I’m working on about black trans women called, the working title is \u003cem>How Black Trans Women Changed the World\u003c/em>, I’ve found that people were so much more tolerant about queer issues before World War II. Right, and it changed after World War II with the sort of the conservatism of the 50s and the civil rights movement. I think really kind of turned the tide for trans people, we’ll just use that word.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> In quotations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>In quotations because there was no such thing as trans people a few years ago. My drag mother and auntie still don’t let me refer to them as that. They just live their lives as women. But yeah, it flipped, the script flipped from tolerance to being really intolerant and even violent towards us. But before World War II, we were considered just part of the community. As long as you stay in your lane.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>And what were those lanes?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>The lanes were a hairdresser.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Sex work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Work in a bar of some sort, a show girl and housewife. You know, that’s kind of, that’s it. That was all available to us. I remember a girl from my crowd. She got a job at the phone company. I was astounded. I didn’t know that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>The girls could do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>The girls could get jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So you were asking me about my book and I’m kind of focusing on three black trans women that were born before 1900.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>But I’ll talk about Lucy Hicks Anderson the most, because she’s my favorite. And she was accomplished. And her story is super unique, I think. She was born in 18, circa 1890. She told her family that her name was no longer Tobias, that her name was Lucy and to call her Lucy. And remarkably, her parents brought her to the doctor, two doctors, and both doctors said, “Just call her Lucy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Right. And this speaks back to what you were saying earlier, how there was a lot more tolerance for us back in the day and awareness around us possibly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, people seem to understand that trans is part of the human condition. But now they’re trying to sell it as something weird that just kind of happened in the 21st century.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, the trans turning point with Laverne (Cox).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, now they’re trying to sell the public that transgenderism is something new. It wasn’t called that before. So when I was growing up, the girls called themselves drag queens. But now drag queens is the domain of gay men.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And so Lucy, getting back to Lucy, love her. She was a gourmet chef and a madam, and then she met her husband, her second husband, and they moved to Oxnard because she always wanted to move to California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> Makes sense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So she decided on Oxnard, which is about midways between Santa Monica and Santa Barbara, coastal. And she stayed there for 35 years and she ran a catering business and a brothel. And she was a bootlegger during the ‘20s. And she was a fashion plate and so she became the darling of the wives of the heads of studios.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Someone knew her from her past and told that she wasn’t assigned female at birth. They ran her out of Oxnard. But she was smart with her money and she’d bought a couple of houses over by Central Avenue in Los Angeles. And that’s where she moved to and she spent her last days there quietly. But she did so much that she changed people’s minds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that is why I admire her so much, that she had the wherewithal to sort of just live her authentic life. In retrospect, it takes courage to live your authentic life, which is why I think a lot of non-trans people hate trans people, because we have the courage to live our authentic lives. And a lot of people are envious of that ability.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> She was a philanthropist too, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>During World War II, she gave $50,000 in war bonds, which is a couple million dollars today. So she loved America and she loved her life, but they wouldn’t let her just live her life out. So I wanna tell her story because it needs to be told.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> It does. She was stealth. What does that mean?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Stealth is a relatively new term. And I think it’s a white term, but it means being a trans person living in your true gender without people knowing about it. Passing, as they call it. That’s what stealth is. And I myself lived stealth from age 15, from that first hormone pill I told you about, until I was 50. I never denied my transness, but it just wasn’t on display. It wasn’t open for discussion. Yeah, it just wasn’t opened for discussion and I just had a regular little job and a husband and so I was just living my life like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Something happened like that to me in San Francisco in the ‘90s. I was working in an office downtown. And someone I know, I saw in the building. I don’t know who he told, but he told my tea. And when I came back from lunch, the police and the building security guards were standing at my desk. And they handed me my paycheck and escorted me out. No words were spoken, and they escorted me out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And the girl I had just had lunch with, she was screaming at the top of her lungs, “I just had lunch with it. Arrrh!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Hmmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Now, that was over 30 years ago, and that wouldn’t happen today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>So when I first met Sylvester.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> Right. How old were you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> I was 15. Sylvester was in his early 20s. And I went to my first kind of queer party and there were lots of trans women and men there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>OK, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And I thought that Sylvester, or Dooney, was a real woman, which is so fascinating, because years later, you would think it’s impossible. But I’ll show you a picture on my phone, he was flawless. But I moved here partly because of Sylvester, because I knew him in L.A. And I just kept coming up to visit and I got a modeling job through Sylvester. So I had to get an apartment, and that was in 1979. I got my first apartment in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>How much was rent?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>My rent was $200.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>A month?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Hmm-mm. But yeah, Sylvester kind of changed the world. Sylvester sort of invented this sort of non-binary genderqueer thing that’s very popular right now. But Sylvester was the first one sort of publicly doing that. You know, he was a boy one day and a girl the next and a mustache the next and smooth shaving the next. And, you know, eventually became a star, really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>No it’s so cool hearing about your story, especially with Sylvester at such a young age, holding you down, because really Sylvester is prolific here in San Francisco: huge musician, queer icon and a lot of folks don’t know this history about their gender queerness, possibly like non-binaryness and we can’t erase that and be simple in how we see gender or our community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>You know, I agree with you on that. It’s just that gay men have claimed Sylvester. But he also started as a trans woman, and I think that should be part of his story also, because that’s what really happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Right. You talked a bit about the conversation around just having to be stealth and not wanting to disclose because it’s honestly not people’s business, so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> True.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>How do you think that’s similar to now? Versus then.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>I think that for all the trans people that are out professing their transness, there’s just as equally as many trans people who are still living stealth. And I don’t think they have any plans on coming out, especially now, with the political climate the way it is. I want to go back stealth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> You would, or would not?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> I want to, but I’m on the internet now, so I can’t, but, you know, it’s scary times for us now, and things have gotten better for trans folks, but black trans women are still getting (beep) over.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>And are restricted and precluded from resources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Even here in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Even here in San Francisco, yes. San Francisco is fabulous if you’re a white gay man. It is Disneyland with the A-ticket and the Matterhorn and all of that, but for the rest of us, it’s just America. M-E-R-K-K-K-A. Oh, I forgot an I in there somewhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so just know that as many trans people that you see on TV and Pose and everyone’s twerking and all that, there’s just as many people that are living stealth lives in the suburbs married. So when you hear people say, “I’ve never used the bathroom with somebody trans!” You probably have. They probably have, but.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Many a times.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Many a times. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>What advice do you have for Black trans girls today, especially for like building sisterhood?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Stay in school, that’s that’s your way out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: Blossom:\u003c/strong> Mmm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that’s my message to young Black trans women, stay at school. And if you’re a teenager and they’re bullying you at school because you’re trans, you’re not gonna remember those (beep) in five years. You won’t even remember their names or their faces or anything. The people that bullied me when I was in high school, I wish somebody had told me, you’re not even going to remember them. But when you’re a teen, the present is everything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: Blossom:\u003c/strong> Yes, yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> And you haven’t yet developed the ability to kind of foresee in the future. And so it’s all immediate. And the message is it will pass, you’ll survive it, and you won’t even remember them. Just stay in school, educate yourself. That’s undeniable. Stay in school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Go as far as you can in school and my dream, my lottery-winning dream is to have a scholarship fund for black trans women. I had a dear friend named Dana Turner, who was a Black trans woman who went to Georgetown Law School, which is pretty impressive. I want to have it in, in her name.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> Dana Turner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Dana Turner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>Well, it’s been rewarding at the very least to get immersed in the history and the knowledge and the lineage of the work. And also that we have so many different folks to look to and different possibility models there’s ones as philanthropists, we have people who are cooks. We have people who are going to law school. We have who read books every week for 30 years. We have our different miniature worlds that we can create for ourselves and curate. It takes a lot of investment, but in the long term, it’s worth it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, I think, Zen, it’s important that we have conversations like this, because America teaches us not to really care about our old folks. As trans folks, we want to start a new model, an intergenerational model, an interaction where we really support and help each other. I want to see us moving in that direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>For the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>For the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>For us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne:\u003c/strong> Yeah, for the girls. We’re saving lives here. Yeah. Yeah. We’ve got to save lives, and we got to let people know that transgender is nothing new. It’s always been part of the human condition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>All the way back to Africa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>All the way back to Africa, all the way to Africa. It’s interesting how contemporary Africans say that there’s no queers, there’s no African queers. But of course that’s not true. But Europeans brought, they didn’t bring queerness, they brought …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: and Andrea Horne together:\u003c/strong> homophobia and transphobia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom: \u003c/strong>It was good continuing to build with you, Andrea, and you, Mei Mei. I will never forget. Don’t worry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrea Horne: \u003c/strong>Well, I hope this is just the first conversation of many, because we really just scratched the surface.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Zen Blossom:\u003c/strong> We really did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Continues\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Transgender elder Andrea Horne, in conversation with Zen Blossom, a 26-year-old transgender activist from Oakland who works with the TGIJP Black Trans Cultural Center. The center was founded by Miss Major, a trailblazing Black trans activist and who passed away this fall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that’s it for TCR Mag for this week. This interview was produced by me, Sasha Khokha with Srishti Prabha and Suzie Racho with help this week from Gabriela Glueck. Our senior editor is Victoria Mauleon. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Special thanks to Tuck Woodstock, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.genderpodcast.com/\">Gender Reveal\u003c/a> podcast for his help on this episode. And to KQED’s Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ana de Almeida Amaral and Anna Vignet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And by the way, if you didn’t catch our series on trans and nonbinary youth and people who love them, check out our \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/love-you-for-you\">Love You for You\u003c/a> series on our podcast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">The California Report Magazine\u003c/a>. Your State, Your Stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music Fades Out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "'It's Self-Love': Trans Elder Donna Personna Shares Advice With a Younger Generation",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the last few weeks, we’ve been sharing conversations between transgender and nonbinary kids and the people in their lives who love and support them — a series called \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/love-you-for-you\">\u003cem>Love You for You.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As we enter \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13977169/transgender-history-bay-area-san-francisco-lgbtq-trans-bay\">Transgender Awareness Month\u003c/a>, we shift the lens toward intergenerational stories — young people in their twenties in conversation with transgender elders whose lives trace the long arc of LGBTQ+ activism in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These bonus episodes carry heavier histories and more mature themes than the family conversations featured earlier in the series. They offer deeper context to the ongoing fight for safety, dignity and self-expression.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, we meet \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13960471/donna-personna-interview-lgbtq-history\">Donna Personna\u003c/a>, a 79-year-old transgender Chicana artist, activist and playwright who grew up in San José and now lives in San Francisco. A longtime drag performer and advocate, Donna has devoted decades to uplifting the LGBTQ+ community. In 2019, she was named \u003ca href=\"https://cdn.sfpride.org/press/RELEASE-Community-Grand-Marshal-Announcement-SF-Pride-2019-FINAL.pdf\">Lifetime Achievement Grand Marshal of the San Francisco Pride Parade\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She also co-wrote \u003ca href=\"https://www.comptonscafeteriariot.com/\">Compton’s Cafeteria Riot\u003c/a>, an immersive play that brings to life a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/11838357/in-66-on-one-hot-august-night-trans-women-fought-for-their-rights\">1966 uprising in San Francisco’s Tenderloin District\u003c/a> — when trans women and drag queens stood up to police harassment, three years before Stonewall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063818\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063818\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A photo of Donna Personna from 2014 is displayed at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 6, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In this episode, Donna speaks with Quetzali (who also goes by “Q”), a 23-year-old Latinx nonbinary organizer from Sacramento who uses they/them/elle pronouns and who is using only their first name to protect their identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together, they reflect on how Latinx gender-expansive identities have evolved across generations, from quiet survival in the shadows to living freely. Donna also shares how she continues to cultivate self-love and resilience in a world that still tests both — grounding today’s struggles in a lifetime of resistance, care and optimism.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Guests:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>79-year-old Donna Personna (she/her)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>23-year-old Quetzali (they/them)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8007728606\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> I’m Sasha Khokha, this is \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">The California Report Magazine.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the last few weeks, we’ve been bringing you conversations between transgender and nonbinary kids and the people in their lives who love and support them so they can thrive. The series is called “Love You for You.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, as we continue to mark Transgender Awareness month, we’re going to hear young people in their 20s in conversation with transgender elders. Their lives reflect the long arc of transgender and LGBTQ+ activism here in California.[aside postID=news_12061805 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/1.png']And a heads up, these intergenerational conversations carry heavier histories and more mature themes than the ones we’ve been diving into with the family conversations in “Love You for You.” So parents, you might want to listen before deciding whether to share with kids. This week, we hear from Donna Personna, a 79-year-old transgender Chicana activist who grew up in San José and now lives in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She’s a celebrated drag performer, artist, and playwright and she’s devoted decades of her life to activism for the LGBTQ+ community. In 2019, she was named Lifetime Achievement Grand Marshall of the San Francisco Pride Parade. She also co-wrote the immersive play Compton’s Cafeteria Riot. It’s about a 1966 uprising when transgender women in San Francisco’s Tenderloin District stood up to police brutality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Film clip fades in “I’d hammer out justice, I’d hammer out freedom, I’d hammer out love.” (singing)\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\nOften called the “Stonewall of the West,” the Compton’s Cafeteria riot marked a turning point for transgender visibility and rights.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Film clip fades in “I’d hammer out justice…” (singing)]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003c/i>We’re going to hear Donna in conversation with Quetzali, a 23-year-old Latinx, nonbinary activist from Sacramento, who also goes by Q and uses the pronouns they/them/elle. Just a note, we’re only using Quetzali’s first name to protect their identity. Donna and Quetzali reflect on cultivating self-love and resilience in a world that continues to test both.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063821\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063821\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Quetzali, left, places their hand on Donna Personna’s hand as Donna speaks about her life, at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 6, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Donna, you’re an amazing artist, a prominent transgender rights activist. You’ve used many different mediums of art to share important messages about civil rights, equity, inclusion. And I do hope that I can learn a lot from, you know, everything that you’ve been through and all of your wisdom and guidance and teachings. And so, I would like to start off by asking you how old you were when you came out and what was it like for you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Okay, well, I was born in 1946, and at that time, there was no community. In fact, it was not a thing to be homosexual or gay. And when it was brought up, it was an aberration. It was rebellious. And what I read was that a child that shows these signs should be separated from the family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Where did you read that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>In a book in our home, we had a library and there was a medical book in there and I love to read. I mean, my father was a Baptist minister, and as a 10-year-old boy at that time, when I read that maybe this child should be separated from the family, I thought that I could ruin my family. That was on my shoulders. So I never breathed a word about that. And there was no one to talk to anyway.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063820\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063820\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1270\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED-160x102.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED-1536x975.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Quetzali, left, places their hand on Donna Personna’s hand as Donna speaks about her life, at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 6, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>So it took me 59, at the age of 59, I came out. If you want to call it that, but I resent that, you know, coming out. Where was I to come out of? But so to answer your question. Now I’ll ask you, when did you come out?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>From a very young age, my parents have always been very supportive in a way in which I express myself, and so I feel like I’ve always been me. You know, there was really never that sort of time where I’m like, okay, I’m not myself or I have to be somebody else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna:\u003c/b> Q, you use the pronouns they, them. Can you tell me more about your gender identity?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>So as someone who is trying to get in deeper touch with their roots and practice sort of like more like indigenous native ways. I feel like I don’t align very much with Western gender binary. And so before the Spanish colonization, gender in many Mexican Indigenous cultures was not strictly binary, right, similarly to how here in North America, Indigenous tribes have, right, like the two-spirit gender identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As I learn more from my elders in my community, I found that I deeply resonated with the idea of not being seen as a man or a woman and this sort of unique cultural identity that embodies both the masculine and the feminine and is sort of like a bridge between the two.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>That makes sense to me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>I feel like part of the reason why I didn’t formally come out, especially to the older generation of my family, is because I do worry, right, about their reactions, right? Like my parents, my sister, my inner circle of friends and close family, my chosen family all accept me as I am, but because our culture, right, is rooted in machismo. And violent patriarchal ideology, I worry about coming out to the rest of my family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Yeah, well, I want to say that when the coming out, I’m old, I’m saying at 79, I was always this way and you know, the way that I wanna teach people if they need to, and I’ll say that I’m invited to, institutions that are now accepting transgender, gay people into their old folks’ homes, I’ll say. l, I teach the staff, don’t ask somebody about their preference, sexual preference because you know that that implies a choice see who I am was not a choice. It’s who I was born.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>I resonate with that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>So, like I heard you say, accepted, I am not here to be accepted. I come for approval. I don’t care about approval. I come pre-approved. So that’s an aggression too. Like, oh, when did you want acceptance? No, not from you. I’m rebellious in that sense. Like the thing is, whether or not I accept you, you know. Who gave you the power to accept me?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>My father was a Baptist minister, my mother was a preacher’s wife. But also in my home, as it sounds like what happened to you, I got total, unconditional love. Yeah, unconditional love. And, you know, my brothers, my brothers were football players, amateur boxers, wrestlers. Never did any one of them ever say to me, “We wish you would act another way.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s where I learned that this is where I belong. And so what’s happening outside, in a way, doesn’t matter, but I wanna stay safe. I wanna to stay safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Did you ever talk to your family about your gender or sexual identity with them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>No, I didn’t. I was in my own universe. There was nobody else in this universe. I had stories, you now, I’m gonna say they were secrets, kind of, that I did not give life to. And so, no, I didn’t tell my brothers and sisters and my mother and my father. But I do say this, my mother was my best friend. And I feel that she knew something that she wasn’t saying. Like, she was very protective of me. And I used to, I like to say, I was my mother’s favorite. But I had 14 brothers and sisters say, no, I was the favorite.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>And I can relate with you on being very close to my mother, my mother and my sister [are] also my best friends and I also didn’t formally come out to anybody but when I took a human sexuality class in university, I actually feel like I got to understand both of my parents better, right? We had an assignment and I offhandedly asked my parents a question about, you know, their own sexual identities their own…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna: \u003c/b>You did?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Yes, and we actually had a great conversation, a very long conversation right at the dinner table and I feel like I’m very grateful for that time and for that class because I feel like otherwise I wouldn’t have got to know my parents, especially my mother, on a deeper level like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Well, I’m happy that that happened for you. In my case, my parents, nobody in my family ever talked about anything about sex. I didn’t have that, I’m going to teach you about the birds and the bees and tamales. No, there was no conversation like that. And that’s just the way it was. I’m glad for you that you had that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali\u003c/b>: So do you think that you being Latina, you being Mexicana has impacted your sexual identity or your gender identity in a way that, or in any way, I guess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I learned gentility, you know, and being kind and respecting each other. And the other thing that one of the things learned the most was do for other people. Nothing that you do is for yourself. Bring other people with you. Make this a better world. And you know, my father is a Baptist minister. Every week that I heard that, and you know I used to resent it as a child because, like my father, and I’m so proud of this, he founded nine churches in his lifetime, nine. Some of them are still operating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Fantastic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Yes. People go to that place for shelter, for comfort, for help and to feel good about themselves. And I saw it over and over and again. Like a young woman would come to the church and her husband left her or something, she comes with her kids, her children. They found her a place to live. They connected her to a job, things like that. So, you know, without anybody, and my mother and father never told me, ever, did they say, ‘This is what we want you to do.’ They never did. It was modeling, they call modeling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Okay, so Donna, are you religious and does religion play a role in how you navigate your life then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I’m not religious, but I’m a saint. No, that’s a joke. I’m not religious because, and you know, I was a rebel. See, like, that’s another thing about me. I’m never anything but me, and that’s been all my life. And that gets me in trouble sometimes. The Sunday school teacher one day was talking about, saying dancing is bad. They said dancing leads to sex, basically. That’s what they said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I was a teenager. I liked to dance, and I didn’t want to think that’s a bad thing. At that time, we were planning a ski trip, our class, Sunday school class. The Sunday school teacher said, “What would you think if you saw Jesus dancing at one of your teen club dances?” And I said, “Well, how would it look if Jesus was skiing, going down a slope, ski slope, with his long hair and a long dress?” (Laughs) So they kicked me out of that church.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Donna, you moved to San Francisco in the early ’60s as a teenager and found community at a diner called Compton’s Cafeteria in the Tenderloin. I didn’t really know much about that, the Stonewall of California, until I saw the play that you co-wrote about the violent and constant police brutality and harassment of trans people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from the play fades in\u003cbr>\n“Why, why do you have to be like this? What did we do to you? somebody must have loved you at some point in your life. Are you finished, little girl? \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>It was amazingly produced. It evoked a lot of strong emotions about complex topics that, unfortunately, still persist today. The character Rusty is based on your life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Persona: \u003c/b>Yes, yes, it is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from Compton’s Cafeteria Riot fades in\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\n\u003ci>“I’m not supposed to be here. My parents they would be out of their minds, my father is a preacher for God’s sake.” \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Could you talk a little bit more about what it was like to be out during the 60s and what it was [like] at Compton’s?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I wanted to get away from San José and my mother and father and my brothers and sisters. And I wanted to explore what was going on. I was a little girl inside. And I want to explore that, but I didn’t want to do that in front of my family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I took a Greyhound bus when I was 16, 17 years old. I’ll make a joke about it. I’ll say, Mom, I’m going to go to a young men’s group, a church, okay? I’ll be gone for a while. Then I got on a Greyhound bus and I came to San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I walked around and I didn’t know what to do, and I came upon Compton’s, and Compton was an all-night diner in the Tenderloin. I walked in there, and I’ll say it like this, this is not kosher these days or culturally appropriate, but I was deceived. I saw these beautiful women and it turned out they were born males. Well, I became friends with them. I kept going there week after week after week. And I heard their stories. We would sit at the table drinking coffee and [eating] toast, staying there for hours, and I heard their stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from Compton’s Cafeteria Riot fades in\u003cbr>\n“If my family ever found out anything about this, they’d get an exorcist. I wish I were kidding.”\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali:\u003c/b> Donna, in the play, the character based on you, Rusty, is much younger and innocent. Being taught by other elders in the community about the hardships and the realities that trans women face.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from Compton’s Cafeteria Riot fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I feel like I’m leading a double life. Maybe I should just go home, something bad is gonna happen, I can feel it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali:\u003c/b> How do you feel about seeing yourself portrayed as that younger version [of] you today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I still relate to the Rusty character. That’s someone who doesn’t know the ropes and who doesn’t want to hurt their family, don’t want to bring danger to their family. I want the world to know that people like me and you are throwaways, or the world doesn’t care about us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>And so people can exploit us, they can harm us, and nobody is gonna care too much about it. And so I wanted that to be told. Our story is really not a story about transgender people in my mind. It’s a story about humans, people being human. I really want the world to know that transgender people are wonderful people. They’re ordinary people. They’re like everybody else, and they want only those things that everybody else gets invited to have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Definitely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>So, I’m gonna guess that you don’t know a lot of these experiences at your age and where you come from and how you’ve lived, but that’s where I came from, and so down deep inside me I’m still that little Rusty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>How were you able to create a safe space for yourself in the community and foster that sense of camaraderie and safety among by other queer individuals?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Well, I, this is gonna sound conceited, because I am, I guess, I was always popular. I was the popular one. As a teenager, everybody liked me, and everybody wanted to be my friends, boys and girls and men and women. And I used to get invited to all these parties. It’s not unlike today. I had my choice of parties on Saturday night because when I went to a party, I would go up to the girls and say, “Let’s dance.” I started the dancing, I broke the ice for everybody. And so I always liked myself. It’s self-love. And that’s not a bad thing, and not on my block. But, and I used to have to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, but I made it light.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, Q, you asked me about community and how it was for me. I’d like to know where you found community and like-minded people for you when you were younger than you are now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>And so, you know, thankfully, because of my upbringing, both of my parents are human rights activists, and so I was exposed to a diverse group of people from many different walks of life, and I was fortunate to be able to find mentors and elders that would give me love and guidance. But unfortunately, I haven’t really participated a lot in the queer community or queer activism due to the predominantly white nature of these spaces.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali:\u003c/b> Do you have any advice, or what other advice do you have for trans and gender expansive people of my generation about resilience, about getting through these tough times, about being smarter, right? What sort of tidbits of wisdom do you give in this regard?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>The basic thing I would say is, first and foremost, love yourself. Love yourself. And I promise you, people will love you. Know that you have a right. You’re not asking for something, ‘maybe someday people will let me do this or let me do that or let me be this.’ No. You’re a human being and you deserve it all. I’ve had a cab driver told me, a transgender woman told me I don’t expect to live over 35. I said, I said, you know, I’m in my seventies. I’m not, they don’t just let me live. I’m thriving. I am loved. I get to do the mightiest things in life. And that’s because, and I would say, don’t be a victim. And I compare it to the animal kingdom. Like, I’m sorry to say that, but that’s the way it is. They look for the weakest one. And they say, let’s gnaw on this one. So I’m not a victim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I would say to my younger transgender community, don’t identify as a victim. Identify as a warrior, a fighter. And also, I would say, bring other people with you. Don’t do anything alone. You’re gonna be stronger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>So find community and do things not for you. You know that sounds strong, but like really and truly. I don’t do anything. I don’t think I do anything for myself. I have it all, but I’m doing it for you. And I think that that’s lovely. I think it’s lovely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Sometimes it’s very easy to fall into the disappointment to only focus on the negativity and so it is really important to find your community, to find resilience, to find hope. And speaking of hope, do you feel more or less hopeful about the future of trans and gender expansive people now than before, especially considering our current administration?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Well, I want to ask you the same question. How do you feel about that for yourself in 2025?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>You, for me, are one of the giants of the movement, the human rights movement focusing on queer transgender individuals. And so it is really important to acknowledge and validate all of the work that our elders have done for us. There are definitely still things that we need to work on to improve together, right? Mobilize to unify, and you know to continue to protest and to fight for these rights that everybody deserves. Everybody deserves dignity and respect, regardless of how they choose to identify themselves, because we’re human.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But I do feel hopeful. The play actually gave me a sort of boost of radical optimism. It’s important, you know, to continue to fight because there are other Rustys out there, you know, trying to figure out how to navigate the world being who they are. And so I do feel hopeful, and I feel that things can still continue to change for the better at the same time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna:\u003c/b> Harvey Milk, you know, was famous for saying, “You gotta give them hope.” Hope is essential, and you know, I, neither I nor you, I can’t see tomorrow, I can see next week. But I can fill it with, and I got to get up in the morning and go do something. We need it now more than ever. That’s how I feel. Because I would say something that’s different today than 50 years ago. I heard this somewhere, like the shy, I think they called it the shy Republican. Like, people weren’t telling me what they were thinking of me. Well, now they’re not shy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>And you know, that’s good and bad. I know my enemy, whereas I didn’t before. Right, so I take hope and this knowledge and like, yes, I need to know where I stand with you. But I, you know, on a very personal level, I am very terrified for myself. Because it’s out there. In a way, nothing has changed. We’ve come back, and I’ll say this, that man that just got killed, Charlie Kirk, I saw on the news the first moments after it happened. A news reporter talked to a student, a white young, white woman with bleached, blonde hair. And she said, oh, he was talking about how transgender people are the most violent, among the most violent people and do the most crimes in this country. What? You know, like I would have said, “Give me the names. Name some of these transgender people that are the most violent.” Me, Donna Personna, I’ve never slapped anyone in my life. I never have. Anyway, that, like, wow, and we have to push against that. So I’m hopeful, but I’m frightened out of my mind, and I have to keep going.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Donna, I’d like to give you a really heartfelt thank you for speaking with me, for sharing your knowledge and your wisdom with me for continuing to be a fearless advocate for our community and I feel very empowered by you. I feel very hopeful. I feel very optimistic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>You’re welcome for that, Q, and I want to say, encouraged by you just being here. You know, I’ve done a lot. I’ve had many, many adventures where I was nervous, scared, and thinking, am I gonna come through? And to see you here right now, I understand that you are out of your comfort zone and you’re willing to go there for the greater good. And I’m also recognized that I’m going to get tired at some point. I only want to live to be 105 or something. I look at you and I think, I can see that they are going to be doing this for the next 50, 60 years. And that really encourages me, makes me feel good. And I appreciate that, and I want to thank you for that right now. You’re very intelligent, or I don’t need to say that, but I like your intelligence and you know what’s what and how to reach out to other people and have them hear you. So I’m grateful for that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>And thank you so much, that really means so much to me, Donna.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Did that feel good?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Yes. Yes. How does it feel to you? I was going to cry at some point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I feel, you know, like we’re friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>No, thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I feel like we are friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>Celebrated transgender elder Donna Personna, in conversation with Quetzali, a youth activist from Sacramento. \u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And thats it for TCR Mag for this week. This interview was produced by me, Sasha Khokha, Srishti Prabha and Suzie Racho with help this week from Gabriela Glueck. Our senior editor is Victoria Mauleon. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Special thanks to Tuck Woodstock, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.genderpodcast.com/\">Gender Reveal podcast,\u003c/a> for his help on this episode. And to KQED’s Robert Chehoski, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ana de Almeida Amaral and Anna Vignet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And if you didn’t catch our series on trans and nonbinary youth and people who love them, check out our \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/love-you-for-you\">Love You for You\u003c/a> series in our podcast feed. The California Report Magazine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Your State, Your Stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, we meet \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13960471/donna-personna-interview-lgbtq-history\">Donna Personna\u003c/a>, a 79-year-old transgender Chicana artist, activist and playwright who grew up in San José and now lives in San Francisco. A longtime drag performer and advocate, Donna has devoted decades to uplifting the LGBTQ+ community. In 2019, she was named \u003ca href=\"https://cdn.sfpride.org/press/RELEASE-Community-Grand-Marshal-Announcement-SF-Pride-2019-FINAL.pdf\">Lifetime Achievement Grand Marshal of the San Francisco Pride Parade\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She also co-wrote \u003ca href=\"https://www.comptonscafeteriariot.com/\">Compton’s Cafeteria Riot\u003c/a>, an immersive play that brings to life a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/11838357/in-66-on-one-hot-august-night-trans-women-fought-for-their-rights\">1966 uprising in San Francisco’s Tenderloin District\u003c/a> — when trans women and drag queens stood up to police harassment, three years before Stonewall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063818\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063818\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-2-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A photo of Donna Personna from 2014 is displayed at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 6, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In this episode, Donna speaks with Quetzali (who also goes by “Q”), a 23-year-old Latinx nonbinary organizer from Sacramento who uses they/them/elle pronouns and who is using only their first name to protect their identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together, they reflect on how Latinx gender-expansive identities have evolved across generations, from quiet survival in the shadows to living freely. Donna also shares how she continues to cultivate self-love and resilience in a world that still tests both — grounding today’s struggles in a lifetime of resistance, care and optimism.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Guests:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>79-year-old Donna Personna (she/her)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>23-year-old Quetzali (they/them)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8007728606\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> I’m Sasha Khokha, this is \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">The California Report Magazine.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the last few weeks, we’ve been bringing you conversations between transgender and nonbinary kids and the people in their lives who love and support them so they can thrive. The series is called “Love You for You.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, as we continue to mark Transgender Awareness month, we’re going to hear young people in their 20s in conversation with transgender elders. Their lives reflect the long arc of transgender and LGBTQ+ activism here in California.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>And a heads up, these intergenerational conversations carry heavier histories and more mature themes than the ones we’ve been diving into with the family conversations in “Love You for You.” So parents, you might want to listen before deciding whether to share with kids. This week, we hear from Donna Personna, a 79-year-old transgender Chicana activist who grew up in San José and now lives in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She’s a celebrated drag performer, artist, and playwright and she’s devoted decades of her life to activism for the LGBTQ+ community. In 2019, she was named Lifetime Achievement Grand Marshall of the San Francisco Pride Parade. She also co-wrote the immersive play Compton’s Cafeteria Riot. It’s about a 1966 uprising when transgender women in San Francisco’s Tenderloin District stood up to police brutality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Film clip fades in “I’d hammer out justice, I’d hammer out freedom, I’d hammer out love.” (singing)\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\nOften called the “Stonewall of the West,” the Compton’s Cafeteria riot marked a turning point for transgender visibility and rights.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Film clip fades in “I’d hammer out justice…” (singing)]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003c/i>We’re going to hear Donna in conversation with Quetzali, a 23-year-old Latinx, nonbinary activist from Sacramento, who also goes by Q and uses the pronouns they/them/elle. Just a note, we’re only using Quetzali’s first name to protect their identity. Donna and Quetzali reflect on cultivating self-love and resilience in a world that continues to test both.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063821\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063821\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-23-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Quetzali, left, places their hand on Donna Personna’s hand as Donna speaks about her life, at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 6, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Donna, you’re an amazing artist, a prominent transgender rights activist. You’ve used many different mediums of art to share important messages about civil rights, equity, inclusion. And I do hope that I can learn a lot from, you know, everything that you’ve been through and all of your wisdom and guidance and teachings. And so, I would like to start off by asking you how old you were when you came out and what was it like for you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Okay, well, I was born in 1946, and at that time, there was no community. In fact, it was not a thing to be homosexual or gay. And when it was brought up, it was an aberration. It was rebellious. And what I read was that a child that shows these signs should be separated from the family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Where did you read that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>In a book in our home, we had a library and there was a medical book in there and I love to read. I mean, my father was a Baptist minister, and as a 10-year-old boy at that time, when I read that maybe this child should be separated from the family, I thought that I could ruin my family. That was on my shoulders. So I never breathed a word about that. And there was no one to talk to anyway.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063820\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063820\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1270\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED-160x102.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/20251106_TRANSELDERSYOUTH_GC-22-KQED-1536x975.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Quetzali, left, places their hand on Donna Personna’s hand as Donna speaks about her life, at her home in San Francisco on Nov. 6, 2025. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>So it took me 59, at the age of 59, I came out. If you want to call it that, but I resent that, you know, coming out. Where was I to come out of? But so to answer your question. Now I’ll ask you, when did you come out?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>From a very young age, my parents have always been very supportive in a way in which I express myself, and so I feel like I’ve always been me. You know, there was really never that sort of time where I’m like, okay, I’m not myself or I have to be somebody else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna:\u003c/b> Q, you use the pronouns they, them. Can you tell me more about your gender identity?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>So as someone who is trying to get in deeper touch with their roots and practice sort of like more like indigenous native ways. I feel like I don’t align very much with Western gender binary. And so before the Spanish colonization, gender in many Mexican Indigenous cultures was not strictly binary, right, similarly to how here in North America, Indigenous tribes have, right, like the two-spirit gender identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As I learn more from my elders in my community, I found that I deeply resonated with the idea of not being seen as a man or a woman and this sort of unique cultural identity that embodies both the masculine and the feminine and is sort of like a bridge between the two.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>That makes sense to me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>I feel like part of the reason why I didn’t formally come out, especially to the older generation of my family, is because I do worry, right, about their reactions, right? Like my parents, my sister, my inner circle of friends and close family, my chosen family all accept me as I am, but because our culture, right, is rooted in machismo. And violent patriarchal ideology, I worry about coming out to the rest of my family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Yeah, well, I want to say that when the coming out, I’m old, I’m saying at 79, I was always this way and you know, the way that I wanna teach people if they need to, and I’ll say that I’m invited to, institutions that are now accepting transgender, gay people into their old folks’ homes, I’ll say. l, I teach the staff, don’t ask somebody about their preference, sexual preference because you know that that implies a choice see who I am was not a choice. It’s who I was born.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>I resonate with that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>So, like I heard you say, accepted, I am not here to be accepted. I come for approval. I don’t care about approval. I come pre-approved. So that’s an aggression too. Like, oh, when did you want acceptance? No, not from you. I’m rebellious in that sense. Like the thing is, whether or not I accept you, you know. Who gave you the power to accept me?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>My father was a Baptist minister, my mother was a preacher’s wife. But also in my home, as it sounds like what happened to you, I got total, unconditional love. Yeah, unconditional love. And, you know, my brothers, my brothers were football players, amateur boxers, wrestlers. Never did any one of them ever say to me, “We wish you would act another way.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s where I learned that this is where I belong. And so what’s happening outside, in a way, doesn’t matter, but I wanna stay safe. I wanna to stay safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Did you ever talk to your family about your gender or sexual identity with them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>No, I didn’t. I was in my own universe. There was nobody else in this universe. I had stories, you now, I’m gonna say they were secrets, kind of, that I did not give life to. And so, no, I didn’t tell my brothers and sisters and my mother and my father. But I do say this, my mother was my best friend. And I feel that she knew something that she wasn’t saying. Like, she was very protective of me. And I used to, I like to say, I was my mother’s favorite. But I had 14 brothers and sisters say, no, I was the favorite.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>And I can relate with you on being very close to my mother, my mother and my sister [are] also my best friends and I also didn’t formally come out to anybody but when I took a human sexuality class in university, I actually feel like I got to understand both of my parents better, right? We had an assignment and I offhandedly asked my parents a question about, you know, their own sexual identities their own…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna: \u003c/b>You did?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Yes, and we actually had a great conversation, a very long conversation right at the dinner table and I feel like I’m very grateful for that time and for that class because I feel like otherwise I wouldn’t have got to know my parents, especially my mother, on a deeper level like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Well, I’m happy that that happened for you. In my case, my parents, nobody in my family ever talked about anything about sex. I didn’t have that, I’m going to teach you about the birds and the bees and tamales. No, there was no conversation like that. And that’s just the way it was. I’m glad for you that you had that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali\u003c/b>: So do you think that you being Latina, you being Mexicana has impacted your sexual identity or your gender identity in a way that, or in any way, I guess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I learned gentility, you know, and being kind and respecting each other. And the other thing that one of the things learned the most was do for other people. Nothing that you do is for yourself. Bring other people with you. Make this a better world. And you know, my father is a Baptist minister. Every week that I heard that, and you know I used to resent it as a child because, like my father, and I’m so proud of this, he founded nine churches in his lifetime, nine. Some of them are still operating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Fantastic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Yes. People go to that place for shelter, for comfort, for help and to feel good about themselves. And I saw it over and over and again. Like a young woman would come to the church and her husband left her or something, she comes with her kids, her children. They found her a place to live. They connected her to a job, things like that. So, you know, without anybody, and my mother and father never told me, ever, did they say, ‘This is what we want you to do.’ They never did. It was modeling, they call modeling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Okay, so Donna, are you religious and does religion play a role in how you navigate your life then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I’m not religious, but I’m a saint. No, that’s a joke. I’m not religious because, and you know, I was a rebel. See, like, that’s another thing about me. I’m never anything but me, and that’s been all my life. And that gets me in trouble sometimes. The Sunday school teacher one day was talking about, saying dancing is bad. They said dancing leads to sex, basically. That’s what they said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I was a teenager. I liked to dance, and I didn’t want to think that’s a bad thing. At that time, we were planning a ski trip, our class, Sunday school class. The Sunday school teacher said, “What would you think if you saw Jesus dancing at one of your teen club dances?” And I said, “Well, how would it look if Jesus was skiing, going down a slope, ski slope, with his long hair and a long dress?” (Laughs) So they kicked me out of that church.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Donna, you moved to San Francisco in the early ’60s as a teenager and found community at a diner called Compton’s Cafeteria in the Tenderloin. I didn’t really know much about that, the Stonewall of California, until I saw the play that you co-wrote about the violent and constant police brutality and harassment of trans people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from the play fades in\u003cbr>\n“Why, why do you have to be like this? What did we do to you? somebody must have loved you at some point in your life. Are you finished, little girl? \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>It was amazingly produced. It evoked a lot of strong emotions about complex topics that, unfortunately, still persist today. The character Rusty is based on your life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Persona: \u003c/b>Yes, yes, it is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from Compton’s Cafeteria Riot fades in\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\n\u003ci>“I’m not supposed to be here. My parents they would be out of their minds, my father is a preacher for God’s sake.” \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Could you talk a little bit more about what it was like to be out during the 60s and what it was [like] at Compton’s?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I wanted to get away from San José and my mother and father and my brothers and sisters. And I wanted to explore what was going on. I was a little girl inside. And I want to explore that, but I didn’t want to do that in front of my family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I took a Greyhound bus when I was 16, 17 years old. I’ll make a joke about it. I’ll say, Mom, I’m going to go to a young men’s group, a church, okay? I’ll be gone for a while. Then I got on a Greyhound bus and I came to San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I walked around and I didn’t know what to do, and I came upon Compton’s, and Compton was an all-night diner in the Tenderloin. I walked in there, and I’ll say it like this, this is not kosher these days or culturally appropriate, but I was deceived. I saw these beautiful women and it turned out they were born males. Well, I became friends with them. I kept going there week after week after week. And I heard their stories. We would sit at the table drinking coffee and [eating] toast, staying there for hours, and I heard their stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from Compton’s Cafeteria Riot fades in\u003cbr>\n“If my family ever found out anything about this, they’d get an exorcist. I wish I were kidding.”\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali:\u003c/b> Donna, in the play, the character based on you, Rusty, is much younger and innocent. Being taught by other elders in the community about the hardships and the realities that trans women face.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Clip from Compton’s Cafeteria Riot fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I feel like I’m leading a double life. Maybe I should just go home, something bad is gonna happen, I can feel it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali:\u003c/b> How do you feel about seeing yourself portrayed as that younger version [of] you today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I still relate to the Rusty character. That’s someone who doesn’t know the ropes and who doesn’t want to hurt their family, don’t want to bring danger to their family. I want the world to know that people like me and you are throwaways, or the world doesn’t care about us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>And so people can exploit us, they can harm us, and nobody is gonna care too much about it. And so I wanted that to be told. Our story is really not a story about transgender people in my mind. It’s a story about humans, people being human. I really want the world to know that transgender people are wonderful people. They’re ordinary people. They’re like everybody else, and they want only those things that everybody else gets invited to have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Definitely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>So, I’m gonna guess that you don’t know a lot of these experiences at your age and where you come from and how you’ve lived, but that’s where I came from, and so down deep inside me I’m still that little Rusty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>How were you able to create a safe space for yourself in the community and foster that sense of camaraderie and safety among by other queer individuals?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Well, I, this is gonna sound conceited, because I am, I guess, I was always popular. I was the popular one. As a teenager, everybody liked me, and everybody wanted to be my friends, boys and girls and men and women. And I used to get invited to all these parties. It’s not unlike today. I had my choice of parties on Saturday night because when I went to a party, I would go up to the girls and say, “Let’s dance.” I started the dancing, I broke the ice for everybody. And so I always liked myself. It’s self-love. And that’s not a bad thing, and not on my block. But, and I used to have to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, but I made it light.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, Q, you asked me about community and how it was for me. I’d like to know where you found community and like-minded people for you when you were younger than you are now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>And so, you know, thankfully, because of my upbringing, both of my parents are human rights activists, and so I was exposed to a diverse group of people from many different walks of life, and I was fortunate to be able to find mentors and elders that would give me love and guidance. But unfortunately, I haven’t really participated a lot in the queer community or queer activism due to the predominantly white nature of these spaces.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali:\u003c/b> Do you have any advice, or what other advice do you have for trans and gender expansive people of my generation about resilience, about getting through these tough times, about being smarter, right? What sort of tidbits of wisdom do you give in this regard?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>The basic thing I would say is, first and foremost, love yourself. Love yourself. And I promise you, people will love you. Know that you have a right. You’re not asking for something, ‘maybe someday people will let me do this or let me do that or let me be this.’ No. You’re a human being and you deserve it all. I’ve had a cab driver told me, a transgender woman told me I don’t expect to live over 35. I said, I said, you know, I’m in my seventies. I’m not, they don’t just let me live. I’m thriving. I am loved. I get to do the mightiest things in life. And that’s because, and I would say, don’t be a victim. And I compare it to the animal kingdom. Like, I’m sorry to say that, but that’s the way it is. They look for the weakest one. And they say, let’s gnaw on this one. So I’m not a victim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I would say to my younger transgender community, don’t identify as a victim. Identify as a warrior, a fighter. And also, I would say, bring other people with you. Don’t do anything alone. You’re gonna be stronger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>So find community and do things not for you. You know that sounds strong, but like really and truly. I don’t do anything. I don’t think I do anything for myself. I have it all, but I’m doing it for you. And I think that that’s lovely. I think it’s lovely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Sometimes it’s very easy to fall into the disappointment to only focus on the negativity and so it is really important to find your community, to find resilience, to find hope. And speaking of hope, do you feel more or less hopeful about the future of trans and gender expansive people now than before, especially considering our current administration?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Well, I want to ask you the same question. How do you feel about that for yourself in 2025?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>You, for me, are one of the giants of the movement, the human rights movement focusing on queer transgender individuals. And so it is really important to acknowledge and validate all of the work that our elders have done for us. There are definitely still things that we need to work on to improve together, right? Mobilize to unify, and you know to continue to protest and to fight for these rights that everybody deserves. Everybody deserves dignity and respect, regardless of how they choose to identify themselves, because we’re human.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But I do feel hopeful. The play actually gave me a sort of boost of radical optimism. It’s important, you know, to continue to fight because there are other Rustys out there, you know, trying to figure out how to navigate the world being who they are. And so I do feel hopeful, and I feel that things can still continue to change for the better at the same time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna:\u003c/b> Harvey Milk, you know, was famous for saying, “You gotta give them hope.” Hope is essential, and you know, I, neither I nor you, I can’t see tomorrow, I can see next week. But I can fill it with, and I got to get up in the morning and go do something. We need it now more than ever. That’s how I feel. Because I would say something that’s different today than 50 years ago. I heard this somewhere, like the shy, I think they called it the shy Republican. Like, people weren’t telling me what they were thinking of me. Well, now they’re not shy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>And you know, that’s good and bad. I know my enemy, whereas I didn’t before. Right, so I take hope and this knowledge and like, yes, I need to know where I stand with you. But I, you know, on a very personal level, I am very terrified for myself. Because it’s out there. In a way, nothing has changed. We’ve come back, and I’ll say this, that man that just got killed, Charlie Kirk, I saw on the news the first moments after it happened. A news reporter talked to a student, a white young, white woman with bleached, blonde hair. And she said, oh, he was talking about how transgender people are the most violent, among the most violent people and do the most crimes in this country. What? You know, like I would have said, “Give me the names. Name some of these transgender people that are the most violent.” Me, Donna Personna, I’ve never slapped anyone in my life. I never have. Anyway, that, like, wow, and we have to push against that. So I’m hopeful, but I’m frightened out of my mind, and I have to keep going.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Donna, I’d like to give you a really heartfelt thank you for speaking with me, for sharing your knowledge and your wisdom with me for continuing to be a fearless advocate for our community and I feel very empowered by you. I feel very hopeful. I feel very optimistic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>You’re welcome for that, Q, and I want to say, encouraged by you just being here. You know, I’ve done a lot. I’ve had many, many adventures where I was nervous, scared, and thinking, am I gonna come through? And to see you here right now, I understand that you are out of your comfort zone and you’re willing to go there for the greater good. And I’m also recognized that I’m going to get tired at some point. I only want to live to be 105 or something. I look at you and I think, I can see that they are going to be doing this for the next 50, 60 years. And that really encourages me, makes me feel good. And I appreciate that, and I want to thank you for that right now. You’re very intelligent, or I don’t need to say that, but I like your intelligence and you know what’s what and how to reach out to other people and have them hear you. So I’m grateful for that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>And thank you so much, that really means so much to me, Donna.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music in\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>Did that feel good?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>Yes. Yes. How does it feel to you? I was going to cry at some point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I feel, you know, like we’re friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quetzali: \u003c/b>No, thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donna Personna: \u003c/b>I feel like we are friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>Celebrated transgender elder Donna Personna, in conversation with Quetzali, a youth activist from Sacramento. \u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And thats it for TCR Mag for this week. This interview was produced by me, Sasha Khokha, Srishti Prabha and Suzie Racho with help this week from Gabriela Glueck. Our senior editor is Victoria Mauleon. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Special thanks to Tuck Woodstock, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.genderpodcast.com/\">Gender Reveal podcast,\u003c/a> for his help on this episode. And to KQED’s Robert Chehoski, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ana de Almeida Amaral and Anna Vignet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And if you didn’t catch our series on trans and nonbinary youth and people who love them, check out our \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/love-you-for-you\">Love You for You\u003c/a> series in our podcast feed. The California Report Magazine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Your State, Your Stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/loveyouforyou\">\u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em>\u003c/a> series features conversations between trans and nonbinary youth from across California and the people in their lives who love and mentor them: parents, grandparents, siblings and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, we’ll explore how parents stretch, adapt and grow alongside their children, learning in real time what it means to support their trans and gender-expansive kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll hear a conversation between a 12-year-old transgender girl and her mom, which ranges from the joys of dancing and shopping to confronting the current anti-trans climate. We’ll also meet two gender-expansive siblings, who talk to their dad about what it’s been like to support one another, and reflect on how well their parents navigated their identities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Guests:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>A 12-year-old transgender girl (she/her) and her mom\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Roberto Santiago, a father and his gender expansive kids, Eloui, 14 (xe/xyr) and Ryu, 15 (they/them)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1846671904\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>I’m Sasha Khokha, and it’s The California Report Magazine. We’re continuing our series this week about transgender and gender-expansive kids across California, talking to people in their lives who love, support and mentor them so they can thrive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063881\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063881\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B.png 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B-160x90.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B-1536x864.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B-1200x675.png 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An illustration of a 12-year-old transgender girl in a photo booth with her mom. Many families in this series have chosen to remain anonymous and not use their names or show their faces out of fear that they could face harm in this current climate. \u003ccite>(Anna Vignet/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Montage of voices\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Being trans, of course, it’s a big deal, but I wish it didn’t feel like such a big deal. I wish I just felt like, you now, another fun thing about me instead of my whole identity? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>What do you want people who are targeting trans kids right now to know about your grandkid? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Just about how special she is. That you gotta know the person. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Thanks for letting me be who I am. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>And thank you for letting me be your parent and for letting me love you. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003cem>Music fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’re calling the series \u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em>, and this week we’re going to hear two conversations between kids and their parents about the parents’ journey to fully understand and support their child’s gender identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago:\u003c/strong> Me and mom tried to really approach this like in the best way that we’ve thought that we could but there have to have been missteps along the way. Like, what did we do right, what do we do wrong?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui:\u003c/strong> You kind of fight my battles for me in some ways? I liked it when you gave me a minute to stand up for myself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>We’ll hear from this dad and his kids later in the show, but we’re going to start this episode with a 12-year-old girl in conversation with her mom. And just a note, this family, like many in this series, are not using their names because of fear that they could face harm in this current climate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>So me first? OK. So I am in seventh grade. I live in the Bay Area. My pronouns are she, her. And this is my mom!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>All right. And I’m her mom. My pronouns are also she, her. And I also live in the Bay Area, because we live together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>What grade are you in?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Oh, I’m, I graduated from um a really big grade, and now I’m not in school anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>A really big grade. OK. So yeah, I’m 12 right now, almost 13. And when I started, like, really transitioning from a boy to a girl, I was like, how old was I? I was like six, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Well\u003cstrong>, \u003c/strong>I mean, we can talk about going back to when you were three years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I was just about to say that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>And we were …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>No, wait, I want to talk about this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>OK, tell me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid:\u003c/strong> So, when I was 3 years old, I had like developed a obsession with wearing dresses and sometimes I wore dresses to preschool and it was like so fun because I was so fancy. Also, I like danced around in dresses with my brother a bunch like just like go crazy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>But of course, we didn’t have dresses for you. That wasn’t part of your wardrobe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>For me, yeah. Yeah, that wasn’t a part of my wardrobe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> So it was towels or it was…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Or it was yeah, or was your old dresses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>My old dresses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid:\u003c/strong> And I was like so fancy, and I pranced around the house.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>And we were trying in vain to get you to get in a beautiful Christmas suit to go to a Christmas party.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>And I was like, “No! I, I don’t want to be handsome. I want to be beautiful.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Hmm-mm. Yeah, there was no coming out. It was always just was.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Always like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I was never one of those, like manly boys, masculine boys. When I was, like, tiny, I would kind of describe myself as that one little gay boy with, like, my pink ruffles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>How do you, how did you decide, or how is it clear to you that you’re not the little gay boy, but you’re a girl?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I think one day there’s like this bus with the mad ladies on it, just like models like looking, like glaring at the screen like they always do, and I was like ‘Oh, that looks fun, I want to do that,’ and also I’ve always had an obsession with dresses and never suits or anything like that. So I think it just like gradually happened. It was like meant to be. ‘Cause I started feeling like that at a really young age. I followed my gut.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I was never ever doubtful that I wanted to be a girl. I never had doubt in that. I was always sure that this is what I was going to be when I grew up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I think we spent a lot of time kind of considering that and, and making sure it’s the right path and talking you and me and talking to therapists.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>And how are you doing now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I am doing good. I’m doing pretty fine. I am kind of like antsy to get on, like to finally start estrogen because we put in the puberty blocker implant a while ago. I’m feeling pretty content.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> Good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Um, how has your view changed on the LGBTQ+ community because I’m your kid?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>OK. Good question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I think I’ve learned a lot. I guess what I didn’t know was the breadth of people’s experience and how much range there is in what someone feels in terms of their own gender but also their sexuality, and how there are lots of different combinations and ways that that’s expressed, and it’s all cool and it…you can be happy anywhere on that spectrum, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I definitely didn’t know how a transition is managed and how you know there’s a whole field of doctors and therapists and people who are there to care for us and make sure that it’s safe and healthy and that we’re happy. I’m like really happy to know that community now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mean, I’ve like caught you reading a few books about this, And that’s nice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>What makes you happy?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I would have to say friends and mall shopping trips. Because friends, they’re my friends and they make me happy. And the reason why they’re my friends is that they make me happy. And the mall trip, it’s because I have a bit of a shopping addiction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> I know. What is it that you love to buy?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Mostly beauty products, like makeup and skincare and hair care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Have you been coaching me a little bit on all of that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I have, I have, what product are you wearing right now on your lips?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I mean, I don’t know. I think it’s called lippy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>You’re not serious, right? You know what product it is, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Tell me. How do you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I guided you to the exact place in store. Like told you, the directions like because I know that store by heart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I’m in good hands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>OK. Tell me about your friends a little more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>My friends, most of them are from school. We have like a huge friend group. But I’m especially friends with like, I have two like really close friends, and we’re kind of like a trio and we like do everything together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I love that for you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>We’re like a bit too close of friends because we were not allowed to sit together anymore because we talked too much to each other. You didn’t hear that, well, no, it’s just a little thing, like if we’re working together on a group project, we get to sit together, but anything else, no.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>OK, so tell me about life outside of school. What are you, what’s your greatest accomplishment and what are you most proud of?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Outside of school, I would say I’m most proud of dance, um, and that’s because I’m on my ninth year of dance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>What’s the gift that dance has given you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid:\u003c/strong> I don’t know, maybe uh, the gift that dance has given me is confidence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Do you remember what you said after the first time you did get up on stage? Do you remember your reaction?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid:\u003c/strong> I don’t remember exactly what I said, but my reaction was like, oh my god, that’s so, that’s easy, like that’s not scary at all, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> And you said, the words that you said were, “I was born to be on that stage.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Actually, yeah. Oh my god, I don’t remember that at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Do you feel like being trans makes you different from other kids at school or at dance?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I do not feel that way because none of my personal friends knows, I haven’t like opened up to them yet, so like, they just treat me like another girl at our school who just happens to be their friend, so then we just do all the normal stuff together\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> Do you think anything would change if you did share with them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I’m really not sure. Because I have a bunch of friends at school, and I’m not sure, like, how they view, like, trans people or the LGBTQ+ community, so like ‘cause we don’t really talk about that stuff, um, so I’m not sure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>It’s hard to know without bringing it up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah. If one of your friends found out, or like, if you told one of your friends that you had a trans kid, would that affect the way they viewed you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Well, I’ve had some experience with that. I think I have told lots of friends. Their reaction has been overwhelmingly wonderful. And then it becomes a non-issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>That’s what happens. I’m only friends with good people. Do you feel like anything about being trans has made you feel, has made your experience different, like has made you grow up faster, made you think about things more deeply?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Uh\u003cstrong>, \u003c/strong>I do think so in some ways because you have to like, I had to like snap back into the real world sometimes to see what’s going on with like politics and stuff like that. And like sometimes there’s bad news about that. So I feel like I’ve had to mature faster than normal, to like, I guess, process that. And also you’ve told me to think to the future, like how would this transition like affect me in the future a bunch. So, yeah, I do think so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Do you try to stay educated about what’s happening in politics?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yes, definitely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>How does it make you feel when you hear about something that is negative about LGBTQ people in the news?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I mean, I don’t really feel offended. Like, it’s kind of weird, because I’ve like started to view myself as just another girl, like a normal, like a normal person, I guess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Just let it roll off you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mostly just laugh at it because it’s so ridiculous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>That’s a good attitude\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Why are you looking at me like that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I just love you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid:\u003c/strong> OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Um, what do you most proud of about your mom?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I am proud how you have completely accepted me and like adapted or like learned everything you can about me and people like me, and I think that’s just really sweet, and I’m also proud how you’ve also accepted that you are not walking out of this world without a full encyclopedia of skincare and makeup in your head.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> I knew this was going to go back to the mall. Yeah, I’ve started my journey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>You’ve started your journey. You’ve started your retinol peptide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I’m trying to be open to that journey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yes, you are. I dunno, I’m glad I’m on this journey with you, I guess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Aww.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Stop, no, don’t make a big deal about that. No, don’t get all mushy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>OK, I’m very happy to be your partner in this journey as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sasha Khokha: Several of the conversations we’ve brought you in our\u003cem> Love You for You series\u003c/em> — like the one you just heard — have been between transgender kids and their moms. Now we’re going to hear from a dad — Roberto Santiago — talking with his two gender-expansive kids. Ryu is 15 and uses they/them pronouns, and Eloui, who’s 14 and uses neopronouns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>Eloui, just for people who may not know, I don’t think everyone knows about neopronouns, so could you just talk a little bit about that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Um, so, uh, neopronoun is any pronoun outside of he, him, she, her, they, them. Any pronoun other than that is a neopronoun. So my pronouns, xe/xyr, are spelled X-E-X-Y-R.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Ryu and Eloui talk with their dad about what they think their parents have done right on their gender journey and what they could do better. And also what it’s been like having a sibling who’s also gender-expansive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>You guys have been like so supportive of each other. Ryu got your pronouns before I did, much more consistently, and what has it been like, I mean, who’s having a similar journey, you know, how, what has that done for you in terms of like your ability to explore your gender or whatever?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Well, Ryu, my entire life has been like the person I talk to, the person who gets me. Like, I don’t know, so if it was really good to have like the person who’s always understood me more than most other people, like understand this as well. That’s been really great, and it’s nice to have someone to rely on to talk about the issues of a genderqueer child in America, because like they don’t get all of it. We don’t experience gender dysphoria the same way, but like it is, it’s still nice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>I don’t even experience gender dysphoria at all, really, and thank goodness for that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui:\u003c/strong> Lucky you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>I cannot imagine. Um, Eloui was also, you know, huge in terms of my, my initial just coming out, right? Just like having that person essentially test the waters for me, right? And see how everyone in my community and everyone in my family was so wonderful and loving and accepting. And so like, I, you know, really just got my, got to do my transition almost entirely risk-free. Thanks to Eloui.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>And I remember being very overjoyed when Ryu came out. I was like, someone who gets it, right here, who lives in my house, across the hallway, in my same room, whatever, it was great.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>And so I’m curious from you guys, like what what about gender expression, like you’re for yourself, like what has that been like, and then what do you think the world should know? Like what’s misunderstood about gender expression?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui:\u003c/strong> I really like to wear skirts and dresses, but I also hate to be perceived as female. So something that’s been hard for me, especially recently, is like I want to be pretty and girlie without being seen as female. I want, I’ve always said that if people are going to assume my gender as binary, male or female, I would rather them see me as male.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>I’ve always just worn the clothing that like feels most comfortable on my body. Which is 90% of the time just gonna be you know like, a T-shirt and some sweatpants. Uh, for me, the biggest part of gender expression in my life has always been my hair. I throughout my life have have gone through having very short and very long hair, and I currently have long hair. Um, and I, I like both because, and you know, I generally style it in a way that is perceived as androgynous because I like the way that that looks on me. And two, it’s literally just like convenient, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I guess I do a lot of things, mostly that are typically perceived as female. Um, I like to bake. I like cook.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>You also play rugby and hit people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Eloui: I also play rugby and hit people, and I like to get dirty, and I like to play video games so like I’m, I feel like I am kind of pretty in the middle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>I mean, I’ll be honest, I think that just makes both of you like typical kids for me, right? Like what I take from that, from what you all are saying is, that you know, there’s a gender binary, but also we know that there’s a gender, you know, spectrum, right? And some people lean hard into the binary, whether they’re cis or transgender, right. And, and some people, you know, who are transgender will make that completely binary flip, right. Whereas there’s also all these people out there who are living their lives somewhere in between, and their gender expression is coming somewhere in between. And I think that that’s really important for people like me who are still learning to not make assumptions, right? And to just, again, it goes back to like, I’m gonna wait for you to tell me who you are and not make assumptions about people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>I’m curious. So what’s been your experience like with your classmates and your peers and maybe your teammates at rugby?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>I mean, I was expecting, you know, honestly, more of a kind of positive response. Like I wasn’t really expecting like a whole party or anything, right? But I was expecting people to at least make an effort. I told everyone that I use they/them and they continue using he/him. And I would, you, I corrected them for about, you know, three or four months, which, always ‘sorry’ and then nothing would change. Uh, and I just, I kind of got tired of it and I just, you know, was, was a boy at rugby essentially for another couple of years before I quit. And I think that’s part of the reason why I quit was just like, nothing malicious was happening, but nobody was making an effort.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>I went back to rugby in January, and I am playing on a girls’ team. And like, there has been some weirdness because I didn’t actually like, I told, I didn’t make a big announcement when I joined the team. I kinda told people one by one, starting with the people that I thought would be chill with it. And then I kinda accidentally told like all of the like low-key, kinda mean girls on the team that I was trans. And ever since then, you know, I could feel them like kinda giving me weird looks and being weird and like trying to be extra nice. And I get that a lot with like people trying to be nice. And I know a lot of the time it comes from a place of sincerity. And they’re not always trying to be mean?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>It just feels patronizing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I am a person like you and I am just here to play rugby and now I will tackle you, please stop being patronizing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>So Eloui, at a certain point, a couple years ago, you had been playing rugby, and then you stopped for a couple of years, and you still sort of held on to being a rugby player as part of your identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>It’s a really important part of me, it’s something that I take a lot of pride in, it makes me feel tough, and I wannabe tough, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>But then this year you went back, and I think one of the big differences that people probably don’t know about youth rugby or maybe youth sports in general is that when you play up until about middle school, the teams are co-ed, right? So you played on a co-ed team when you were little. Then you stopped. Did you stop because it was becoming gendered? What was it like going back to a gendered team?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>There were two big reasons I stopped, and the first one was I quit rugby the same day I found out Ryu quit rugby, because Ryu was such an important part of my rugby experience, I didn’t want to do rugby without them, but yeah, the other thing was definitely, I am so scared of having to play on a gendered team.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>And then you did for a season?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>And honestly, most of it was actually a really good experience for me. All the girls that I immediately made friends with were like super sweet about it and so understanding. And like my favorite coach got it immediately and the other kids, it took a minute, but they’re getting there. Um there’s a part of me that is femme and is a girl and helped me connect to that in a way that’s not associated with femininity because it’s a tough, tackle you into the mud sport. So it was a really like almost healing experience for all the parts of me. It was also hard because people would say, OK, for the photo, everyone say, ‘girls rugby.’ Or like, ‘OK, girls’ like to go to do this, and I tried to correct them every time, but like they didn’t always listen to me. And that was a struggle because like, you have to find the middle ground between sticking up for yourself and just accepting that like, I signed up to be on a girl’s team and I’m just gonna have to let it go sometimes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>But also, we could provide maybe a list of like group pronouns that are not gendered, right? Hey y’all, hey folks, hey team, hey players, hey, you know, that can help counteract that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>But I am curious, like, you know, me and mom tried to really approach this like in the best way that we’ve thought that we could, right? And we’re pretty open-minded. There have to have been missteps along the way. Like, what did we do right, what do we do wrong? What would you tell parents or kids or whatever in the world about your experience being parented?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Well, less so these days, but like when I was younger, one thing that you, and especially mom, would do a lot of the time, is you kind of fight my battles for me in some ways? And I really appreciate it, and I really did appreciate it. But like someone would misgender me, and I would start to correct them. And like one of you, mom or you, would often, I don’t even think without realizing it, just kind of jump in and correct them for me. And I appreciate that a lot. And I know it’s like parent protectiveness, but one thing I would say is let the kid figure it out for themself. And if they don’t say anything, to make sure that the kid knows that you’re supporting them, correct the person. But like give, I liked it when you gave me a minute to stand up for myself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and I think something that I started to do with both of you is going into a situation or like if we had like a little moment as an aside, being able to just ask you, like, do, do you wanna say anything? Do you want me to say anything, or do you just wanna let it go? And letting you guys lead from that perspective. Once I learned how to do that, I think that was helpful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that was a big upgrade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>But the main thing that you got right, and the most important thing, is to just say yes to your kid and listen to what they’re asking of you, right? Like, at the end of the day, if they want to change their name or change their pronouns, the very least you can do is just respect that because it costs nothing to be kind to them and to validate them. And the alternative can be some really scary stuff that your kid has to go through, right? They can feel unloved, they can feel like nobody wants them, right, because if your parents, the people that society and your instincts and everything tells you should be the people that love and care for you the most. And you have this huge facet of your being that you feel and they just won’t accept that. And in some cases, they won’t even accept any of you just because of that part of you. Um, that can feel awful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I’m wondering, like, do you have any misgivings? Do you feel like there’s anything that like you could have really done better, because I know for me personally, I feel like my trans experience in relation to you two at least has has been wonderful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>Oh, thanks. Yeah. I mean, I think some of my missteps came even before either of you came out. So like Ryu, I think about that time, you know, you wanted to wear your hair in a ponytail and a scrunchie to day care. And I was like, “That’s fine. You can do that, but you have to understand some kids aren’t going to get it and they might tease you.” And you, the look on your face, when I said that, like, I thought I was trying to be supportive, right? Because I wasn’t saying don’t do it. I was just wanting to prepare you for the fact that other people might not be as accepting. And even that kind of crushed you a little bit. And I felt so bad, because I was getting out of the car to go to school, and I was like, I didn’t have a chance to fix it. I learned so much from that. I think a lot of the things that I regret or that I feel bad about are things that you, you all never saw. You know, like conversations I may have had early on with people that you weren’t privy to, but that’s where I was probably expressing my, my doubts and my misgivings and my fears and, you know, just how new it was. And I think that that’s something that it’s important for parents to know, and I think I’ve said this, but it’s OK to not be there yet. Right? Like, don’t show your kid that. Right. But if you internally feel like, “Oh, no, like, I don’t know about this, like I dunno how I feel about this,” as long as you’re kind of working through that yourself and not putting that on your kid, I work through it. Right. And the goal I hope is to get to a place of acceptance, but, you know, don’t totally beat yourself up either if you’re like, ‘I’m freaking out.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>I think what you did right is like all the things. Everything\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago:\u003c/strong> Right on. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so, you know, you’ve been living this life for a little while, and there’s a lot going on in the world right now. What are you hopeful for for the future for trans kids?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>All the trans people I know have one vision, and it is just a society where being trans isn’t this whole like thing, right? Where I can just say, “Hey, I’m trans.” And everyone’s like, “OK, cool.” And trans people can get access to their gender-affirming care the same way cis people can get access to their gender-affirming care. I would just like to see trans people become more integrated, accepted, normalized members of society instead of sort of being ostracized and feeling othered and having to create our own safe spaces. I think the world should just be a safe space.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>Right. You want to be mundane. You don’t want to be a topic of conversation anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Like I want to be a person. I wanna be all kinds of things, and also trans. I don’t wanna be trans and all kinds of things because I feel like how a lot of people see me. I’m just me, I’m like you. You know, I’m not an exhibit, I am not an alien. I’m, I’m just a person. I want to be seen as that. Like, “Oh, I’m Eloui and I like purple. Oh, I am Eloui, also I’m trans.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>This has been really great, and I’m looking forward to seeing what the next bit of time brings us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Thanks for supporting us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>I’m glad that there are spaces for like stories like this to be told.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago:\u003c/strong> Love you, bud.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui\u003c/strong>: Love you, Dad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Roberto Santiago and his two kids, 14-year-old Eloui and 15-year-old Ryu, as part of our series \u003cem>Love You For You, \u003c/em>where transgender kids talk about what it means to thrive with support from the adults in their lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The interviews in our \u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em> series were produced by me, Sasha Khokha, Tessa Paoli and Suzie Racho with help from Gabriela Glueck. Our senior editor is Victoria Mauleon. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Srishti Prabha is our intern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Special thanks to Tuck Woodstock, host of the\u003ca href=\"https://www.genderpodcast.com/\"> Gender Reveal podcast\u003c/a> for all his help on the series. And to KQED’s Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ana de Almeida Amaral and Anna Vignet. You can find all the interviews in our \u003cem>Love You for You \u003c/em>series on our podcast. The California Report Magazine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Next week on the show, we’ll meet some transgender elders who’ve got some words of wisdom for a younger generation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Quetzali: \u003c/strong>Do you have any advice for trans and gender expansive people of my generation about resilience?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Donna Persona: \u003c/strong>I’m thriving. I am loved. I get to do the mightiest things in life. And I would say to my younger transgender community, don’t identify as a victim, identify as a warrior, a fighter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>That’s next week on the California Report Magazine. Your state, your stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Episode 3 of KQED's new series, \"Love You for You,\" features trans and nonbinary youth from across California in conversation with their parents. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/loveyouforyou\">\u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em>\u003c/a> series features conversations between trans and nonbinary youth from across California and the people in their lives who love and mentor them: parents, grandparents, siblings and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, we’ll explore how parents stretch, adapt and grow alongside their children, learning in real time what it means to support their trans and gender-expansive kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll hear a conversation between a 12-year-old transgender girl and her mom, which ranges from the joys of dancing and shopping to confronting the current anti-trans climate. We’ll also meet two gender-expansive siblings, who talk to their dad about what it’s been like to support one another, and reflect on how well their parents navigated their identities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Guests:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>A 12-year-old transgender girl (she/her) and her mom\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Roberto Santiago, a father and his gender expansive kids, Eloui, 14 (xe/xyr) and Ryu, 15 (they/them)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1846671904\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>I’m Sasha Khokha, and it’s The California Report Magazine. We’re continuing our series this week about transgender and gender-expansive kids across California, talking to people in their lives who love, support and mentor them so they can thrive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063881\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063881\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B.png 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B-160x90.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B-1536x864.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/LYFY_WEB_Ep3_B-1200x675.png 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An illustration of a 12-year-old transgender girl in a photo booth with her mom. Many families in this series have chosen to remain anonymous and not use their names or show their faces out of fear that they could face harm in this current climate. \u003ccite>(Anna Vignet/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Montage of voices\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Being trans, of course, it’s a big deal, but I wish it didn’t feel like such a big deal. I wish I just felt like, you now, another fun thing about me instead of my whole identity? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>What do you want people who are targeting trans kids right now to know about your grandkid? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Just about how special she is. That you gotta know the person. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Thanks for letting me be who I am. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>And thank you for letting me be your parent and for letting me love you. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003cem>Music fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’re calling the series \u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em>, and this week we’re going to hear two conversations between kids and their parents about the parents’ journey to fully understand and support their child’s gender identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago:\u003c/strong> Me and mom tried to really approach this like in the best way that we’ve thought that we could but there have to have been missteps along the way. Like, what did we do right, what do we do wrong?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui:\u003c/strong> You kind of fight my battles for me in some ways? I liked it when you gave me a minute to stand up for myself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>We’ll hear from this dad and his kids later in the show, but we’re going to start this episode with a 12-year-old girl in conversation with her mom. And just a note, this family, like many in this series, are not using their names because of fear that they could face harm in this current climate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>So me first? OK. So I am in seventh grade. I live in the Bay Area. My pronouns are she, her. And this is my mom!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>All right. And I’m her mom. My pronouns are also she, her. And I also live in the Bay Area, because we live together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>What grade are you in?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Oh, I’m, I graduated from um a really big grade, and now I’m not in school anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>A really big grade. OK. So yeah, I’m 12 right now, almost 13. And when I started, like, really transitioning from a boy to a girl, I was like, how old was I? I was like six, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Well\u003cstrong>, \u003c/strong>I mean, we can talk about going back to when you were three years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I was just about to say that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>And we were …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>No, wait, I want to talk about this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>OK, tell me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid:\u003c/strong> So, when I was 3 years old, I had like developed a obsession with wearing dresses and sometimes I wore dresses to preschool and it was like so fun because I was so fancy. Also, I like danced around in dresses with my brother a bunch like just like go crazy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>But of course, we didn’t have dresses for you. That wasn’t part of your wardrobe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>For me, yeah. Yeah, that wasn’t a part of my wardrobe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> So it was towels or it was…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Or it was yeah, or was your old dresses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>My old dresses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid:\u003c/strong> And I was like so fancy, and I pranced around the house.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>And we were trying in vain to get you to get in a beautiful Christmas suit to go to a Christmas party.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>And I was like, “No! I, I don’t want to be handsome. I want to be beautiful.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Hmm-mm. Yeah, there was no coming out. It was always just was.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Always like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I was never one of those, like manly boys, masculine boys. When I was, like, tiny, I would kind of describe myself as that one little gay boy with, like, my pink ruffles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>How do you, how did you decide, or how is it clear to you that you’re not the little gay boy, but you’re a girl?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I think one day there’s like this bus with the mad ladies on it, just like models like looking, like glaring at the screen like they always do, and I was like ‘Oh, that looks fun, I want to do that,’ and also I’ve always had an obsession with dresses and never suits or anything like that. So I think it just like gradually happened. It was like meant to be. ‘Cause I started feeling like that at a really young age. I followed my gut.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I was never ever doubtful that I wanted to be a girl. I never had doubt in that. I was always sure that this is what I was going to be when I grew up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I think we spent a lot of time kind of considering that and, and making sure it’s the right path and talking you and me and talking to therapists.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>And how are you doing now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I am doing good. I’m doing pretty fine. I am kind of like antsy to get on, like to finally start estrogen because we put in the puberty blocker implant a while ago. I’m feeling pretty content.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> Good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Um, how has your view changed on the LGBTQ+ community because I’m your kid?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>OK. Good question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I think I’ve learned a lot. I guess what I didn’t know was the breadth of people’s experience and how much range there is in what someone feels in terms of their own gender but also their sexuality, and how there are lots of different combinations and ways that that’s expressed, and it’s all cool and it…you can be happy anywhere on that spectrum, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I definitely didn’t know how a transition is managed and how you know there’s a whole field of doctors and therapists and people who are there to care for us and make sure that it’s safe and healthy and that we’re happy. I’m like really happy to know that community now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mean, I’ve like caught you reading a few books about this, And that’s nice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>What makes you happy?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I would have to say friends and mall shopping trips. Because friends, they’re my friends and they make me happy. And the reason why they’re my friends is that they make me happy. And the mall trip, it’s because I have a bit of a shopping addiction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> I know. What is it that you love to buy?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Mostly beauty products, like makeup and skincare and hair care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Have you been coaching me a little bit on all of that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I have, I have, what product are you wearing right now on your lips?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I mean, I don’t know. I think it’s called lippy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>You’re not serious, right? You know what product it is, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Tell me. How do you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I guided you to the exact place in store. Like told you, the directions like because I know that store by heart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I’m in good hands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>OK. Tell me about your friends a little more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>My friends, most of them are from school. We have like a huge friend group. But I’m especially friends with like, I have two like really close friends, and we’re kind of like a trio and we like do everything together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I love that for you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>We’re like a bit too close of friends because we were not allowed to sit together anymore because we talked too much to each other. You didn’t hear that, well, no, it’s just a little thing, like if we’re working together on a group project, we get to sit together, but anything else, no.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>OK, so tell me about life outside of school. What are you, what’s your greatest accomplishment and what are you most proud of?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Outside of school, I would say I’m most proud of dance, um, and that’s because I’m on my ninth year of dance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>What’s the gift that dance has given you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid:\u003c/strong> I don’t know, maybe uh, the gift that dance has given me is confidence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Do you remember what you said after the first time you did get up on stage? Do you remember your reaction?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid:\u003c/strong> I don’t remember exactly what I said, but my reaction was like, oh my god, that’s so, that’s easy, like that’s not scary at all, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> And you said, the words that you said were, “I was born to be on that stage.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Actually, yeah. Oh my god, I don’t remember that at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Do you feel like being trans makes you different from other kids at school or at dance?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I do not feel that way because none of my personal friends knows, I haven’t like opened up to them yet, so like, they just treat me like another girl at our school who just happens to be their friend, so then we just do all the normal stuff together\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> Do you think anything would change if you did share with them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I’m really not sure. Because I have a bunch of friends at school, and I’m not sure, like, how they view, like, trans people or the LGBTQ+ community, so like ‘cause we don’t really talk about that stuff, um, so I’m not sure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>It’s hard to know without bringing it up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah. If one of your friends found out, or like, if you told one of your friends that you had a trans kid, would that affect the way they viewed you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Well, I’ve had some experience with that. I think I have told lots of friends. Their reaction has been overwhelmingly wonderful. And then it becomes a non-issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>That’s what happens. I’m only friends with good people. Do you feel like anything about being trans has made you feel, has made your experience different, like has made you grow up faster, made you think about things more deeply?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Uh\u003cstrong>, \u003c/strong>I do think so in some ways because you have to like, I had to like snap back into the real world sometimes to see what’s going on with like politics and stuff like that. And like sometimes there’s bad news about that. So I feel like I’ve had to mature faster than normal, to like, I guess, process that. And also you’ve told me to think to the future, like how would this transition like affect me in the future a bunch. So, yeah, I do think so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Do you try to stay educated about what’s happening in politics?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yes, definitely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>How does it make you feel when you hear about something that is negative about LGBTQ people in the news?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I mean, I don’t really feel offended. Like, it’s kind of weird, because I’ve like started to view myself as just another girl, like a normal, like a normal person, I guess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Just let it roll off you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mostly just laugh at it because it’s so ridiculous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>That’s a good attitude\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Why are you looking at me like that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I just love you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid:\u003c/strong> OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Um, what do you most proud of about your mom?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I am proud how you have completely accepted me and like adapted or like learned everything you can about me and people like me, and I think that’s just really sweet, and I’m also proud how you’ve also accepted that you are not walking out of this world without a full encyclopedia of skincare and makeup in your head.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> I knew this was going to go back to the mall. Yeah, I’ve started my journey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>You’ve started your journey. You’ve started your retinol peptide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I’m trying to be open to that journey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yes, you are. I dunno, I’m glad I’m on this journey with you, I guess.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Aww.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Stop, no, don’t make a big deal about that. No, don’t get all mushy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>OK, I’m very happy to be your partner in this journey as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>Yay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sasha Khokha: Several of the conversations we’ve brought you in our\u003cem> Love You for You series\u003c/em> — like the one you just heard — have been between transgender kids and their moms. Now we’re going to hear from a dad — Roberto Santiago — talking with his two gender-expansive kids. Ryu is 15 and uses they/them pronouns, and Eloui, who’s 14 and uses neopronouns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>Eloui, just for people who may not know, I don’t think everyone knows about neopronouns, so could you just talk a little bit about that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Um, so, uh, neopronoun is any pronoun outside of he, him, she, her, they, them. Any pronoun other than that is a neopronoun. So my pronouns, xe/xyr, are spelled X-E-X-Y-R.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Ryu and Eloui talk with their dad about what they think their parents have done right on their gender journey and what they could do better. And also what it’s been like having a sibling who’s also gender-expansive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>You guys have been like so supportive of each other. Ryu got your pronouns before I did, much more consistently, and what has it been like, I mean, who’s having a similar journey, you know, how, what has that done for you in terms of like your ability to explore your gender or whatever?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Well, Ryu, my entire life has been like the person I talk to, the person who gets me. Like, I don’t know, so if it was really good to have like the person who’s always understood me more than most other people, like understand this as well. That’s been really great, and it’s nice to have someone to rely on to talk about the issues of a genderqueer child in America, because like they don’t get all of it. We don’t experience gender dysphoria the same way, but like it is, it’s still nice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>I don’t even experience gender dysphoria at all, really, and thank goodness for that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui:\u003c/strong> Lucky you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>I cannot imagine. Um, Eloui was also, you know, huge in terms of my, my initial just coming out, right? Just like having that person essentially test the waters for me, right? And see how everyone in my community and everyone in my family was so wonderful and loving and accepting. And so like, I, you know, really just got my, got to do my transition almost entirely risk-free. Thanks to Eloui.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>And I remember being very overjoyed when Ryu came out. I was like, someone who gets it, right here, who lives in my house, across the hallway, in my same room, whatever, it was great.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>And so I’m curious from you guys, like what what about gender expression, like you’re for yourself, like what has that been like, and then what do you think the world should know? Like what’s misunderstood about gender expression?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui:\u003c/strong> I really like to wear skirts and dresses, but I also hate to be perceived as female. So something that’s been hard for me, especially recently, is like I want to be pretty and girlie without being seen as female. I want, I’ve always said that if people are going to assume my gender as binary, male or female, I would rather them see me as male.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>I’ve always just worn the clothing that like feels most comfortable on my body. Which is 90% of the time just gonna be you know like, a T-shirt and some sweatpants. Uh, for me, the biggest part of gender expression in my life has always been my hair. I throughout my life have have gone through having very short and very long hair, and I currently have long hair. Um, and I, I like both because, and you know, I generally style it in a way that is perceived as androgynous because I like the way that that looks on me. And two, it’s literally just like convenient, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I guess I do a lot of things, mostly that are typically perceived as female. Um, I like to bake. I like cook.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>You also play rugby and hit people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Eloui: I also play rugby and hit people, and I like to get dirty, and I like to play video games so like I’m, I feel like I am kind of pretty in the middle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>I mean, I’ll be honest, I think that just makes both of you like typical kids for me, right? Like what I take from that, from what you all are saying is, that you know, there’s a gender binary, but also we know that there’s a gender, you know, spectrum, right? And some people lean hard into the binary, whether they’re cis or transgender, right. And, and some people, you know, who are transgender will make that completely binary flip, right. Whereas there’s also all these people out there who are living their lives somewhere in between, and their gender expression is coming somewhere in between. And I think that that’s really important for people like me who are still learning to not make assumptions, right? And to just, again, it goes back to like, I’m gonna wait for you to tell me who you are and not make assumptions about people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>I’m curious. So what’s been your experience like with your classmates and your peers and maybe your teammates at rugby?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>I mean, I was expecting, you know, honestly, more of a kind of positive response. Like I wasn’t really expecting like a whole party or anything, right? But I was expecting people to at least make an effort. I told everyone that I use they/them and they continue using he/him. And I would, you, I corrected them for about, you know, three or four months, which, always ‘sorry’ and then nothing would change. Uh, and I just, I kind of got tired of it and I just, you know, was, was a boy at rugby essentially for another couple of years before I quit. And I think that’s part of the reason why I quit was just like, nothing malicious was happening, but nobody was making an effort.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>I went back to rugby in January, and I am playing on a girls’ team. And like, there has been some weirdness because I didn’t actually like, I told, I didn’t make a big announcement when I joined the team. I kinda told people one by one, starting with the people that I thought would be chill with it. And then I kinda accidentally told like all of the like low-key, kinda mean girls on the team that I was trans. And ever since then, you know, I could feel them like kinda giving me weird looks and being weird and like trying to be extra nice. And I get that a lot with like people trying to be nice. And I know a lot of the time it comes from a place of sincerity. And they’re not always trying to be mean?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>It just feels patronizing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I am a person like you and I am just here to play rugby and now I will tackle you, please stop being patronizing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>So Eloui, at a certain point, a couple years ago, you had been playing rugby, and then you stopped for a couple of years, and you still sort of held on to being a rugby player as part of your identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>It’s a really important part of me, it’s something that I take a lot of pride in, it makes me feel tough, and I wannabe tough, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>But then this year you went back, and I think one of the big differences that people probably don’t know about youth rugby or maybe youth sports in general is that when you play up until about middle school, the teams are co-ed, right? So you played on a co-ed team when you were little. Then you stopped. Did you stop because it was becoming gendered? What was it like going back to a gendered team?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>There were two big reasons I stopped, and the first one was I quit rugby the same day I found out Ryu quit rugby, because Ryu was such an important part of my rugby experience, I didn’t want to do rugby without them, but yeah, the other thing was definitely, I am so scared of having to play on a gendered team.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>And then you did for a season?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>And honestly, most of it was actually a really good experience for me. All the girls that I immediately made friends with were like super sweet about it and so understanding. And like my favorite coach got it immediately and the other kids, it took a minute, but they’re getting there. Um there’s a part of me that is femme and is a girl and helped me connect to that in a way that’s not associated with femininity because it’s a tough, tackle you into the mud sport. So it was a really like almost healing experience for all the parts of me. It was also hard because people would say, OK, for the photo, everyone say, ‘girls rugby.’ Or like, ‘OK, girls’ like to go to do this, and I tried to correct them every time, but like they didn’t always listen to me. And that was a struggle because like, you have to find the middle ground between sticking up for yourself and just accepting that like, I signed up to be on a girl’s team and I’m just gonna have to let it go sometimes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>But also, we could provide maybe a list of like group pronouns that are not gendered, right? Hey y’all, hey folks, hey team, hey players, hey, you know, that can help counteract that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>But I am curious, like, you know, me and mom tried to really approach this like in the best way that we’ve thought that we could, right? And we’re pretty open-minded. There have to have been missteps along the way. Like, what did we do right, what do we do wrong? What would you tell parents or kids or whatever in the world about your experience being parented?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Well, less so these days, but like when I was younger, one thing that you, and especially mom, would do a lot of the time, is you kind of fight my battles for me in some ways? And I really appreciate it, and I really did appreciate it. But like someone would misgender me, and I would start to correct them. And like one of you, mom or you, would often, I don’t even think without realizing it, just kind of jump in and correct them for me. And I appreciate that a lot. And I know it’s like parent protectiveness, but one thing I would say is let the kid figure it out for themself. And if they don’t say anything, to make sure that the kid knows that you’re supporting them, correct the person. But like give, I liked it when you gave me a minute to stand up for myself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and I think something that I started to do with both of you is going into a situation or like if we had like a little moment as an aside, being able to just ask you, like, do, do you wanna say anything? Do you want me to say anything, or do you just wanna let it go? And letting you guys lead from that perspective. Once I learned how to do that, I think that was helpful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that was a big upgrade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>But the main thing that you got right, and the most important thing, is to just say yes to your kid and listen to what they’re asking of you, right? Like, at the end of the day, if they want to change their name or change their pronouns, the very least you can do is just respect that because it costs nothing to be kind to them and to validate them. And the alternative can be some really scary stuff that your kid has to go through, right? They can feel unloved, they can feel like nobody wants them, right, because if your parents, the people that society and your instincts and everything tells you should be the people that love and care for you the most. And you have this huge facet of your being that you feel and they just won’t accept that. And in some cases, they won’t even accept any of you just because of that part of you. Um, that can feel awful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I’m wondering, like, do you have any misgivings? Do you feel like there’s anything that like you could have really done better, because I know for me personally, I feel like my trans experience in relation to you two at least has has been wonderful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>Oh, thanks. Yeah. I mean, I think some of my missteps came even before either of you came out. So like Ryu, I think about that time, you know, you wanted to wear your hair in a ponytail and a scrunchie to day care. And I was like, “That’s fine. You can do that, but you have to understand some kids aren’t going to get it and they might tease you.” And you, the look on your face, when I said that, like, I thought I was trying to be supportive, right? Because I wasn’t saying don’t do it. I was just wanting to prepare you for the fact that other people might not be as accepting. And even that kind of crushed you a little bit. And I felt so bad, because I was getting out of the car to go to school, and I was like, I didn’t have a chance to fix it. I learned so much from that. I think a lot of the things that I regret or that I feel bad about are things that you, you all never saw. You know, like conversations I may have had early on with people that you weren’t privy to, but that’s where I was probably expressing my, my doubts and my misgivings and my fears and, you know, just how new it was. And I think that that’s something that it’s important for parents to know, and I think I’ve said this, but it’s OK to not be there yet. Right? Like, don’t show your kid that. Right. But if you internally feel like, “Oh, no, like, I don’t know about this, like I dunno how I feel about this,” as long as you’re kind of working through that yourself and not putting that on your kid, I work through it. Right. And the goal I hope is to get to a place of acceptance, but, you know, don’t totally beat yourself up either if you’re like, ‘I’m freaking out.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>I think what you did right is like all the things. Everything\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago:\u003c/strong> Right on. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so, you know, you’ve been living this life for a little while, and there’s a lot going on in the world right now. What are you hopeful for for the future for trans kids?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>All the trans people I know have one vision, and it is just a society where being trans isn’t this whole like thing, right? Where I can just say, “Hey, I’m trans.” And everyone’s like, “OK, cool.” And trans people can get access to their gender-affirming care the same way cis people can get access to their gender-affirming care. I would just like to see trans people become more integrated, accepted, normalized members of society instead of sort of being ostracized and feeling othered and having to create our own safe spaces. I think the world should just be a safe space.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>Right. You want to be mundane. You don’t want to be a topic of conversation anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Like I want to be a person. I wanna be all kinds of things, and also trans. I don’t wanna be trans and all kinds of things because I feel like how a lot of people see me. I’m just me, I’m like you. You know, I’m not an exhibit, I am not an alien. I’m, I’m just a person. I want to be seen as that. Like, “Oh, I’m Eloui and I like purple. Oh, I am Eloui, also I’m trans.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago: \u003c/strong>This has been really great, and I’m looking forward to seeing what the next bit of time brings us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui: \u003c/strong>Thanks for supporting us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryu: \u003c/strong>I’m glad that there are spaces for like stories like this to be told.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roberto Santiago:\u003c/strong> Love you, bud.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloui\u003c/strong>: Love you, Dad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Roberto Santiago and his two kids, 14-year-old Eloui and 15-year-old Ryu, as part of our series \u003cem>Love You For You, \u003c/em>where transgender kids talk about what it means to thrive with support from the adults in their lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The interviews in our \u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em> series were produced by me, Sasha Khokha, Tessa Paoli and Suzie Racho with help from Gabriela Glueck. Our senior editor is Victoria Mauleon. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Srishti Prabha is our intern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Special thanks to Tuck Woodstock, host of the\u003ca href=\"https://www.genderpodcast.com/\"> Gender Reveal podcast\u003c/a> for all his help on the series. And to KQED’s Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ana de Almeida Amaral and Anna Vignet. You can find all the interviews in our \u003cem>Love You for You \u003c/em>series on our podcast. The California Report Magazine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Next week on the show, we’ll meet some transgender elders who’ve got some words of wisdom for a younger generation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Quetzali: \u003c/strong>Do you have any advice for trans and gender expansive people of my generation about resilience?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Donna Persona: \u003c/strong>I’m thriving. I am loved. I get to do the mightiest things in life. And I would say to my younger transgender community, don’t identify as a victim, identify as a warrior, a fighter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>That’s next week on the California Report Magazine. Your state, your stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our \u003cem>\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2025/11/03/introducing-love-you-for-you-conversations-between-trans-kids-and-their-loved-ones/\">Love You for You\u003c/a>\u003c/em> series features conversations between trans and nonbinary youth from across California and the people in their lives who love and mentor them: parents, grandparents, siblings and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, we’ll hear how grandparents’ hearts can be moved by having a transgender grandchild, and how that can expand the worldview of someone who may not be connected to the LGBTQ+ community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll hear from a 10-year-old transgender girl in conversation with her older sister and their grandfather. He lives in a rural California county, where many of his neighbors and hunting buddies don’t have much exposure to the transgender community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll also meet a 14-year-old nonbinary kid whose grandmother lives in India, where she’s become a fierce advocate for transgender and nonbinary youth. She’s taken on the challenge of explaining her grandchild’s gender to her relatives, some of whom are 90 or older.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3553005698\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Love You for You Episode 2: A Grandparent’s Love\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>I’m Sasha Khokha, and this is The California Report Magazine. We’re continuing our series this week about transgender and gender-expansive kids across California and the people in their lives who love, support and mentor them so they can thrive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063357\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/3.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063357\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/3.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/3.png 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/3-160x90.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/3-1536x864.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/3-1200x675.png 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An illustration of a 10-year-old transgender girl in a photo booth with her older sister and their grandfather. Many families in this series have chosen to remain anonymous and not use their names or show their faces out of fear that they could face harm in this current climate. \u003ccite>(Anna Vignet/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Montage of voices\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Being trans, of course, it’s a big deal, but I wish it didn’t feel like such a big deal. I wish I just felt like, you now, another fun thing about me instead of my whole identity? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>What do you want people who are targeting trans kids right now to know about your grandkid? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Just about how special she is. That you gotta know the person. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Thanks for letting me be who I am. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>And thank you for letting me be your parent and for letting me love you. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>What are you hopeful for the future will look like for trans kids?\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>All the trans people I know have one vision, and it is just a society where being trans isn’t this whole like thing, right? Where I can just say, ‘Hey, I’m trans,’ and everyone’s like, ‘OK, cool.’\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>We’re calling the series \u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em>, and this week we’re going to hear two conversations between kids and their grandparents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>I’m 16. I’m a sophomore in high school. Uh, my pronouns are she, her, and this is my sister.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Hi, I’m 10. In two days, I’m about to be 11. Um, my pronouns are she, her, and this is my Grandpa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa:\u003c/strong> Um. I’m old, I’m their Grandparent, and I’m very proud of being their Grandparent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>This family — an older sister, a younger sister who is trans, and their grandfather — sat down to talk together to talk about their relationship. And just a note, this family, like many in this series, has chosen to stay anonymous and not use their names out of fear that they could face harm in this current climate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister:\u003c/strong> When you first came out, what was that experience like for you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>I think I was like nine or eight, and it was like during the summertime, like it was right, it was kind of like in the beginning of the summer. I kind of just realized, like, yeah, that’s who I am. I’m trans, like I’m not a boy. I’m a girl. And I remember I texted my mom, “Hey, you know how I’m a boy, I think I’m actually a girl.” And she called me and she was like, “What do you mean?” And I was just like, “I’m a girl.” It was like, kind of scary because I didn’t know what anyone would think. It was kinda like awkward because like when my grandma, like I go to my grandma’s house every Friday and she used to hug me and say “Oh my little boy,” and I would look to my mom like in like disgust and like it was like kinda like weird and it was still like when I was like figuring out who I was and stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Papa, how did it feel when my sister came out to you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>We always knew, so it was not a big surprise. When you were just three years old, we were putting on your dress. I think it was your…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Which one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>When you’re going through, I think, the Dorothy years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Oh, \u003cem>Wizard of Oz\u003c/em> phase?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>I was helping you with your dress, and we were having a hard time. And I said, it’d be a lot easier if you just dressed up like a boy, and you just turned to me at the age of three and said, “I wish I was a girl.” And from then on, we knew. I knew. There’s no doubt about it. And that was it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah. Like, I feel like a lot of people don’t understand how little of a change it really was.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>It was not a…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister\u003c/strong>: Yeah, and like I’m sure it was a bigger change for you, obviously.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister\u003c/strong>: Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister\u003c/strong>: But like for us, it was like nothing, it was like nothing had changed. Same old you. You know? I was proud of you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister:\u003c/strong> You’re welcome. So do you feel that you’ve never really identified with, like, male?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>No, I feel like I never did that, I always wore wigs, I’ve always loved doing makeup and stuff. I remember one day where I was like, I’m just going to do like a classic glam. Two minutes later, I had polka dots on my face looking like I was Minnie Mouse’s dress because I thought it was so funny and that I looked amazing and yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister:\u003c/strong> Uh, do you wish you would have transitioned sooner?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Yes, everyone kind of like already knew, like I said, I loved costumes, I love dressing up, but not like when I was like a baby. Not when I, yep. But I feel maybe like, I feel like a good age I wanted to was probably like seven.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah. What’s something that you do that makes you feel most like yourself?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger Sister: \u003c/strong>I love expressing myself in different ways that aren’t talking. Like I love dance, I do ballet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger Sister:\u003c/strong> And I think it’s such a fun way to express myself because you can like jump up in the air and like you can show your expressions, like when you’re doing ballet, you can like spin and doing a jump, that you’re sad or you’re happy. Like I love expressing myself in dance and in music and stuff like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah, you are definitely one of the most creative people I know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older Sister: \u003c/strong>How does it feel when somebody uses your old name?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Um on like on purpose, like to be mean, I feel like like it annoys me, but also like I don’t get it because if you are trying to do this on purpose, it just fades through to, it’s like you should just stop. It’s not funny, it’s not cute, it’s just annoying, and if you do this, I’m calling you out right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>You just don’t let it affect you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I don’t.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>Are there any other trans kids at your school?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Uh. I don’t think so, I don’t know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>What would you say if a new kid came to school and was trans? What would you say to make the school easier?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Um, stay away from certain people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa:\u003c/strong> OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Would you like give them any advice on how to stand up to bullies, or, like …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Oh yeah, don’t let it fade to you. They are just doing that because they are insecure about yourself. They just want to tear you down, even though you’re a confident, amazing person and they’re not. So just walk away and say, “I’m better than you,” and sing your way out. That’s what I do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Yes, like this has been going on for a long time. You guys are so unoriginal. Be like, stop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>It must be exhausting being so strong all the time, and like standing up and not letting it bother you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Um, not really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>It’s just your norm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Do you guys think that, like, younger kids are better at learning new pronouns and new names than older people are? Because the older people have been calling you by your old name for so long.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>I think the older people have a hard time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I would agree.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>Isn’t that right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah, also because, like I said, our whole family is very supportive, so once they found out, I feel like I heard that some of them bought their kids gender books. I’m very glad that there’s authors and stuff and people that, oh, let’s write about this stuff, so the younger kids and younger generations can know about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah, just like teaching younger kids, just educating them more about everything that goes into it. I definitely think that younger kids have an easier time with like switching names and pronouns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>Does it hurt your feelings when Papa accidentally calls you by your old name?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>No, because I’m not that surprised at it, like yeah. Well, not in like a mean way. I’m just like, like I’ve been used to like everyone calling me it like for so long on accident, that I’m just like, yeah, OK, like, it’s fine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>It’s to be expected.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah, like there’s like it’s kind of like they’re forgetting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Papa, have you like told any of your friends or people around you, like people that don’t include our close family, about my sister being trans?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>Yes, yes, all my close friends. They all know. I have not told my neighbors. But my friends that I go hunting with and fishing with, they were all Trump supporters, but I told them, and they’ve never said, I don’t know really how they feel about it, but they’ve said anything bad about it, or you know, saying that’s a terrible thing or…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Do you think that like people around you would have a reaction?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>Some, yes, I do, yes. A lot of them would not understand at all. So they’re, what you don’t know they’re afraid of, kind of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah. For people that you don’t think would be supportive or people that would have a negative reaction, what would you want to tell them to try and change their mind or redirect their thinking?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>It’s hard to tell someone to change their mind without knowing somebody or, you know, I just can’t say she’s a beautiful person; she does, she has a great heart. Um, I don’t think that’d change their mind. I think over time, if they actually met somebody and were closer to them, that’s how I think that they’d lose their opinion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah, you think that they would need to have personal experience with someone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>Personal experience, exactly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>What do you want people who are targeting trans kids right now to know about your grandkid?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>Just about how special she is. That you gotta know the person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that’s a good answer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister:\u003c/strong> Yeah!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Like, I don’t, it just doesn’t make sense, people who just are homophobic for no good reason. Like, for things that don’t affect them, people that they don’t know. Doesn’t make sense to me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah, like cyberbullying, like when people cyberbully people like you don’t know this person personally, but like, why do you want to be mean to them for no reason? Like you actually like the person, like if you’re taking time every day to, be rude like…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah. Like, if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say it at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister:\u003c/strong> Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>What do you want the future to look like for trans kids?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Uh, I hope that in the future everyone’s really supportive of them and that homophobia kind of disappears. It’s probably not, but like…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>That would be wonderful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Honestly, like, there’s nothing we can really do about people having their own opinions, but like, I feel like sometimes we can just keep our opinions to ourselves, you know, just like, shush.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>What are you most excited about for your future?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister \u003c/strong>Well, there’s two things, one, becoming an actor, like, I really want to be a child actor if there’s any agents listening. Hello, I’m here! Hi. But another thing is I would love to, like this, I love how I get to like share knowledge to other people that might not know about being trans or stuff. So I love to…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older Sister:\u003c/strong> To educate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah, to educate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Good answer. Papa, what do you hope that the future is like for trans kids, and what do you plan on doing to support trans kids?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>Oh, I support this one all the time. Uh, I’d do anything for her, and she knows that. I just, I don’t want the hurt that people give to trans people for there’s no reason. That’s uh, that’s what really gets me and your grandma the most. We just hate to see you hurt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>Well, I got a question for you. Have you ever talked so much to your sister before? Actually sat and chatted with your sister?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>I don’t think that a conversation like this has ever really come up. I regret not asking you more about being trans, but I’m glad that we have this opportunity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah, like we never really have time, like you have a bunch of school and homework, and I have like Monday I have singing, Tuesday I have ballet…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>You have lots of commitments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger Sister: \u003c/strong>Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>I think that this has been very, very helpful, educational for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger Sister: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister \u003c/strong>And I think that having this conversation and just learning more about you and like who you are as a person will help me to better explain it to other people, you know, like to my friends and the rest of my family.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nYounger sister: \u003c/strong>And I hope for all the other trans kids and other trans people that this is very educational for them. Really, people that are not, like people that still trying to figure out who they are. I hope this helps people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>I’m excited to see what you do in the future. I know that you’ll achieve your dreams of being an actress.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>I can’t tell you how proud I am of you two doing this. This is amazing to me. I could never ever do this at your age, especially.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa:\u003c/strong> And you guys are doing a great job. Just very special, both of you guys are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>In our next conversation, we’re gonna hear a kid talking with their mom and their grandmother.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ba: \u003c/strong>It’s important in these times, you know, with all the misconceptions that are there, that we make our voice be heard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>They discuss what it’s meant to have their family’s support across generations. And by the way, we’re just using this kid’s first name to protect their privacy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan \u003c/strong>Hi, my name is Rohan, I’m 14 years old, non-binary, and my pronouns are they, them. I’m here with my mom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ma\u003c/strong>: Hi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan\u003c/strong>: And my grandma, who I call Ba.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ba\u003c/strong>: Hello.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan:\u003c/strong> She’s visiting from India.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>It’s not really our family culture to speak very publicly about you being trans, and in general, we’re very open about it, actually, in our community and our family. And so it’s not something secret at all, but we’re not used to talking about it publicly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan: \u003c/strong>There’s not really a moment I can think of when I like found out I was trans or something, I’ve always felt like I didn’t fit into either of the main gender categories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and as your mom, I can say that. You’ve always been you. Even when you were one years old, two years old, three years old, you know, really very young.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ba: \u003c/strong>When they actually came out with it, I was very glad because I just never liked the fact of anyone having to hide something because I feel that it affects their personality, and all, whereas Rohan came out with it, we all were happy to share it with friends, you know, and that’s been good. And if I can go further, actually, for me, what has been very important is to see the child thrive. And I’ve seen Rohan thriving. I mean, I’ve seen them playing football, doing those miniature paintings, being good at school, and just more than anything else, being a very sensitive, loving child. And that for me has been most important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>There were a few things in your childhood that were very distinctive, like you never wore conventional like the short swimsuit, you know, you always wanted to wear the top as well, otherwise you would refuse to, even when you were very small, two, three years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ba: \u003c/strong>You know, for me, there’s just that one memory where we were at the dining table and a friend was visiting and Rohan whispered to you to say that share, and I said it is such a good moment for me that you know not only was there a coming out but there was such a confidence about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Oh my gosh, I had forgotten that moment. That was a really precious moment. You were such a little one. And when you were excited, I also remember when we were discussing with the counselor, you know, she was advising that you could come out. Actually, we didn’t know about non-binary and they/them pronouns. So when we were talking about your gender fluidity and she asked you what’s your coming out plan. You were a little kid, Rohan of seven, eight years old. And she asked, “Who would you like to come out to?” And you said, “Everybody.” And I remember that was really one of my favorite moments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan: \u003c/strong>I feel like one of the things was it really like, somehow I feel like I was opened up to an even bigger community, like, and that was really special, I think, like of all the different, you know, like LGBTQ kids and…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>So yeah, that’s one of the unexpected boons, isn’t it, Rohan, finding that community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan: \u003c/strong>Yeah, there’s so many nice moments like going to Pride and going to like groups where there’s like so many other like trans and non-binary or anyone who’s LGBTQ kids, and I just feel like I can connect with people so well there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, do you want to talk about some of the challenges on the other side, the challenges of being trans in this world?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan: \u003c/strong>For me, one of the biggest things is bathroom dysphoria, like especially being non-binary, I never know, I don’t want to go in either of the like male or female bathrooms and like especially in like big public spaces. Even if it’s like in a like area that’s very supportive, I feel really uncomfortable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom\u003c/strong>: If there’s a non-binary, if there’s an all-gender bathroom available, does that make it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan: \u003c/strong>Yeah, definitely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>That addresses it, huh? So that’s the solution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Any other challenges you’ve experienced or difficulties?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan: \u003c/strong>So, also, another thing is immigration when we’re going to see my grandparents in India, sometimes it’s tough explaining to the immigration agent like what non-binary is and sometimes like the, they’re like trying to talk to me in Hindi or like, and that’s sometimes a language barrier and like what it says on the passport may not match how they perceive me. I feel like worried. If we get into the country or not is based on their decisions. So it’s always a very stressful time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I think my mom and I have talked about this, that as parents, as grandparents, we just want to protect our child and protect their right to be a child and dealing with these types of things with how to use the bathroom and navigating immigration. These are things which I know I, as a child, never had to think about. The adults in the world took care of it and made it easy and safe for me. I think that’s the toughest as an adult to not be able to control that I can make a world that children can be carefree and safe in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ba:\u003c/strong> This is such an important part of caring for our own children and, by extension, our grandchildren, and what it would mean not just for our grandchildren but for communities at large to see. We all feel it, and we all are together in it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> The safety of children is a community sport. It’s a team sport. Putting flags, rainbow flags and trans flags everywhere. Whenever I see a rainbow flag anywhere, I feel that it’s a signal that I am safe to be myself there. I know it makes difference to me as the parent of a trans child. I’ll be biking through the neighborhood, and in a way, it’s such a small cosmetic thing, putting a flag up outside your house, but it makes big difference.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I really feel like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Do you feel that too?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Buy some flags.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ba: \u003c/strong>I think we are able to have conversations and just feel more open, more close to each other as family. And then I realized that it opened up another horizon for me. Like one day, I walked into an LGBTQ meeting in Bombay. I’d never done that before. And there were only two of us who were not in that category. Maybe we all are a bit in that category, but strikingly so. So it was a universe which I entered in because of you. And then one time, during a literary festival, I went to listen to transgender poetry. And I had not been aware of that whole scene in Bombay, and so my college, where I had studied, has an LGBTQ club. And I’ve got connected to that. And I’m looking forward to an opportunity to talk to grandparents through that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan:\u003c/strong> I mean, Ba, you saw this firsthand, but like, where the family in India, especially like the family that was like 90 or more years older, like still really tries and understands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom\u003c/strong>: The way that she explained, the way you explained, mama and helped people understand how Rohan is, you know what it’s like because for many of them they had no exposure whatsoever to, maybe not even to LGBTQ, for some of our really elderly, forget trans. Just to have you know my 80 plus, 90 plus relative unanimously, not had one relative who when we go back home Rohan can’t be themselves with that even and so by extension I can’t be myself with. And that, even though it’s around this topic of being trans, I think in a way made me feel more safe about being myself, myself, in general. Because I realize that people are more capable than I might have guessed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan: \u003c/strong>India has been such like a happy memory in general for me, like, and I’m always excited to go now because it’s like there’s so much support and love there in that family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ba: \u003c/strong>And I just want to give the context that the family that my husband comes from is really a Marwadi, conservative family, and my own family, maybe a little forward, but otherwise a bit right-wing, you get the picture. And yet, before Rohan came to India, last time especially, because now they had grown up, I wanted them all to know before they met them, you know, so that there would really be no quizzical looks or anything, there’d just be a joyful feeling of a grandchild visiting. We’ve got a large family, so I would tell one person from the family to inform everybody else. If one talks in a certain way, then awareness does increase and something does shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, Ba, thanks for sharing that. Can you reflect on whether there was something about the way that you introduced people to the topic that got the reaction that you got?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ba: \u003c/strong>I realized that there’s no sense in being forceful or angry, you know. I just, it’s important to reach, not to confront anyone. People always love it when somebody wants to share something. I didn’t say, I want to tell you, or I want you to know. Get into a conversation in some form, like encourage them to ask if a question popped up in their mind. I remember that there was an 83-year-old woman who was like you know, I’ve never heard of this do you mind if I ask more questions? I said no, I want you to ask more questions, and if you can talk to others about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>You know, Ba, you’re a real leader, you are held in high respect in our family. And I think also you drew on that in the sense on the trust and respect people have for you. So you were sharing very much about how you feel. They could feel your comfort with it, your not just comfort, but joy about who Rohan is, your pride in Rohan, and then I think that people follow suit a little bit with someone they respect and trust.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ba: \u003c/strong>One thing was my own intrinsic love for Rohan. That’s the first, but also, I think my own experience as having grown up in India at a time when there was so much gender discrimination and bias against women. So I somehow know in my bones how it feels, you know, so that the combined effect of that, think, gave me a certain energy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in and out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Rohan, you also have family in Wyoming from your dad’s side. And so how has that story played out?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mean, I feel like it’s kind of like a bit of an unfinished story. Like we haven’t yet told them, but like in Wyoming, like that community, it is a bit of a conservative community. But I mean I’m still hopeful that maybe, you know, it could be the same situation as what happened in India. Like, we kind of expected the worst, but then it was so amazing to see all these like, people understanding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Yeah. And so though it’s unfinished, do you feel sad about that? Or kind of a sense of anything negative, dread or uncertainty or?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan\u003c/strong>: Not really. I feel like I’m kind of hopeful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> Rohan, have you ever imagined or thought about not being trans or wished you were cisgender?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan: \u003c/strong>Um, I feel like sometimes, yeah, maybe I think about what it might have been like if I wasn’t trans, but it’s never like a, like it’s almost like thinking about what would it be like for a different person who’s not trans. It’s not like, what if I was not trans? I mean, it’s who I am, I’d be a different person if I wasn’t trans. Like it’s almost like saying like, oh, what if I had chosen to be a different height? Or what if I had chosen for my skin color to be different? Like, it’s kind of who you are, and I’m happy to be who I am.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ba: \u003c/strong>I very, very strongly feel that everyone has a right to be what they are. I think change happens. It happens slowly, but it does happen. So we keep our faith alive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> Great. And now the most important question, which family member has supported you best? Who gets the award?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan\u003c/strong>: Everyone!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> Rohan, I know that you were very hesitant to do this, so thanks for doing it. Thanks for taking a chance on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan: \u003c/strong>I mean, I feel like in the end, all the stress when we did this fully went away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ba: \u003c/strong>I have to say that I felt teary in between. Just we’ve talked about these things, it’s not new, but talking like this, I think I feel very heartened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that’s how I feel. My heart feels very full.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan: \u003c/strong>I’m really happy we did this. You know, I feel like we’re giving a message out to people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Next week in the \u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em> series, we’ll hear a dad talking with his two gender-expansive teenagers. Both rugby players who’ve faced different kinds of challenges on the field.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I am a person like you, and I am just here to play rugby and now I will tackle you, please stop being patronizing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>That’s next week on \u003cem>The California Report Magazine\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The interviews in our \u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em> series were produced by me, Sasha Khokha, Tessa Paoli, Srishti Prabha and Suzie Racho with help this week from Gabriela Glueck. Our senior editor is Victoria Mauleon. Our engineer is Brendan Willard, with additional mixing from Katherine Monahan. Srishti Prabha is our intern. Special thanks to Tuck Woodstock, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.genderpodcast.com/\">Gender Reveal podcast\u003c/a>, for his help on the series. And to KQED’s Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ana de Almeida Amaral and Anna Vignet. We’ll be releasing all of the stories in our \u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em> series on our podcast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The California Report Magazine, Your State, Your stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Episode 2 of KQED's new series, \"Love You for You,\" features trans and nonbinary youth from across California in conversation with their grandparents. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our \u003cem>\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2025/11/03/introducing-love-you-for-you-conversations-between-trans-kids-and-their-loved-ones/\">Love You for You\u003c/a>\u003c/em> series features conversations between trans and nonbinary youth from across California and the people in their lives who love and mentor them: parents, grandparents, siblings and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, we’ll hear how grandparents’ hearts can be moved by having a transgender grandchild, and how that can expand the worldview of someone who may not be connected to the LGBTQ+ community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll hear from a 10-year-old transgender girl in conversation with her older sister and their grandfather. He lives in a rural California county, where many of his neighbors and hunting buddies don’t have much exposure to the transgender community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll also meet a 14-year-old nonbinary kid whose grandmother lives in India, where she’s become a fierce advocate for transgender and nonbinary youth. She’s taken on the challenge of explaining her grandchild’s gender to her relatives, some of whom are 90 or older.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3553005698\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Love You for You Episode 2: A Grandparent’s Love\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>I’m Sasha Khokha, and this is The California Report Magazine. We’re continuing our series this week about transgender and gender-expansive kids across California and the people in their lives who love, support and mentor them so they can thrive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12063357\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/3.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12063357\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/3.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/3.png 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/3-160x90.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/3-1536x864.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/3-1200x675.png 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An illustration of a 10-year-old transgender girl in a photo booth with her older sister and their grandfather. Many families in this series have chosen to remain anonymous and not use their names or show their faces out of fear that they could face harm in this current climate. \u003ccite>(Anna Vignet/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Montage of voices\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Being trans, of course, it’s a big deal, but I wish it didn’t feel like such a big deal. I wish I just felt like, you now, another fun thing about me instead of my whole identity? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>What do you want people who are targeting trans kids right now to know about your grandkid? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Just about how special she is. That you gotta know the person. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Thanks for letting me be who I am. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>And thank you for letting me be your parent and for letting me love you. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>What are you hopeful for the future will look like for trans kids?\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>All the trans people I know have one vision, and it is just a society where being trans isn’t this whole like thing, right? Where I can just say, ‘Hey, I’m trans,’ and everyone’s like, ‘OK, cool.’\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>We’re calling the series \u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em>, and this week we’re going to hear two conversations between kids and their grandparents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>I’m 16. I’m a sophomore in high school. Uh, my pronouns are she, her, and this is my sister.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Hi, I’m 10. In two days, I’m about to be 11. Um, my pronouns are she, her, and this is my Grandpa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa:\u003c/strong> Um. I’m old, I’m their Grandparent, and I’m very proud of being their Grandparent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>This family — an older sister, a younger sister who is trans, and their grandfather — sat down to talk together to talk about their relationship. And just a note, this family, like many in this series, has chosen to stay anonymous and not use their names out of fear that they could face harm in this current climate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister:\u003c/strong> When you first came out, what was that experience like for you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>I think I was like nine or eight, and it was like during the summertime, like it was right, it was kind of like in the beginning of the summer. I kind of just realized, like, yeah, that’s who I am. I’m trans, like I’m not a boy. I’m a girl. And I remember I texted my mom, “Hey, you know how I’m a boy, I think I’m actually a girl.” And she called me and she was like, “What do you mean?” And I was just like, “I’m a girl.” It was like, kind of scary because I didn’t know what anyone would think. It was kinda like awkward because like when my grandma, like I go to my grandma’s house every Friday and she used to hug me and say “Oh my little boy,” and I would look to my mom like in like disgust and like it was like kinda like weird and it was still like when I was like figuring out who I was and stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Papa, how did it feel when my sister came out to you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>We always knew, so it was not a big surprise. When you were just three years old, we were putting on your dress. I think it was your…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Which one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>When you’re going through, I think, the Dorothy years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Oh, \u003cem>Wizard of Oz\u003c/em> phase?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>I was helping you with your dress, and we were having a hard time. And I said, it’d be a lot easier if you just dressed up like a boy, and you just turned to me at the age of three and said, “I wish I was a girl.” And from then on, we knew. I knew. There’s no doubt about it. And that was it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah. Like, I feel like a lot of people don’t understand how little of a change it really was.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>It was not a…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister\u003c/strong>: Yeah, and like I’m sure it was a bigger change for you, obviously.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister\u003c/strong>: Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister\u003c/strong>: But like for us, it was like nothing, it was like nothing had changed. Same old you. You know? I was proud of you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister:\u003c/strong> You’re welcome. So do you feel that you’ve never really identified with, like, male?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>No, I feel like I never did that, I always wore wigs, I’ve always loved doing makeup and stuff. I remember one day where I was like, I’m just going to do like a classic glam. Two minutes later, I had polka dots on my face looking like I was Minnie Mouse’s dress because I thought it was so funny and that I looked amazing and yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister:\u003c/strong> Uh, do you wish you would have transitioned sooner?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Yes, everyone kind of like already knew, like I said, I loved costumes, I love dressing up, but not like when I was like a baby. Not when I, yep. But I feel maybe like, I feel like a good age I wanted to was probably like seven.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah. What’s something that you do that makes you feel most like yourself?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger Sister: \u003c/strong>I love expressing myself in different ways that aren’t talking. Like I love dance, I do ballet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger Sister:\u003c/strong> And I think it’s such a fun way to express myself because you can like jump up in the air and like you can show your expressions, like when you’re doing ballet, you can like spin and doing a jump, that you’re sad or you’re happy. Like I love expressing myself in dance and in music and stuff like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah, you are definitely one of the most creative people I know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older Sister: \u003c/strong>How does it feel when somebody uses your old name?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Um on like on purpose, like to be mean, I feel like like it annoys me, but also like I don’t get it because if you are trying to do this on purpose, it just fades through to, it’s like you should just stop. It’s not funny, it’s not cute, it’s just annoying, and if you do this, I’m calling you out right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>You just don’t let it affect you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I don’t.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>Are there any other trans kids at your school?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Uh. I don’t think so, I don’t know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>What would you say if a new kid came to school and was trans? What would you say to make the school easier?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Um, stay away from certain people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa:\u003c/strong> OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Would you like give them any advice on how to stand up to bullies, or, like …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Oh yeah, don’t let it fade to you. They are just doing that because they are insecure about yourself. They just want to tear you down, even though you’re a confident, amazing person and they’re not. So just walk away and say, “I’m better than you,” and sing your way out. That’s what I do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>OK.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Yes, like this has been going on for a long time. You guys are so unoriginal. Be like, stop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>It must be exhausting being so strong all the time, and like standing up and not letting it bother you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Um, not really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>It’s just your norm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Do you guys think that, like, younger kids are better at learning new pronouns and new names than older people are? Because the older people have been calling you by your old name for so long.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>I think the older people have a hard time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I would agree.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>Isn’t that right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah, also because, like I said, our whole family is very supportive, so once they found out, I feel like I heard that some of them bought their kids gender books. I’m very glad that there’s authors and stuff and people that, oh, let’s write about this stuff, so the younger kids and younger generations can know about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah, just like teaching younger kids, just educating them more about everything that goes into it. I definitely think that younger kids have an easier time with like switching names and pronouns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>Does it hurt your feelings when Papa accidentally calls you by your old name?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>No, because I’m not that surprised at it, like yeah. Well, not in like a mean way. I’m just like, like I’ve been used to like everyone calling me it like for so long on accident, that I’m just like, yeah, OK, like, it’s fine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>It’s to be expected.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah, like there’s like it’s kind of like they’re forgetting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Papa, have you like told any of your friends or people around you, like people that don’t include our close family, about my sister being trans?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>Yes, yes, all my close friends. They all know. I have not told my neighbors. But my friends that I go hunting with and fishing with, they were all Trump supporters, but I told them, and they’ve never said, I don’t know really how they feel about it, but they’ve said anything bad about it, or you know, saying that’s a terrible thing or…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Do you think that like people around you would have a reaction?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>Some, yes, I do, yes. A lot of them would not understand at all. So they’re, what you don’t know they’re afraid of, kind of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah. For people that you don’t think would be supportive or people that would have a negative reaction, what would you want to tell them to try and change their mind or redirect their thinking?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>It’s hard to tell someone to change their mind without knowing somebody or, you know, I just can’t say she’s a beautiful person; she does, she has a great heart. Um, I don’t think that’d change their mind. I think over time, if they actually met somebody and were closer to them, that’s how I think that they’d lose their opinion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah, you think that they would need to have personal experience with someone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>Personal experience, exactly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>What do you want people who are targeting trans kids right now to know about your grandkid?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>Just about how special she is. That you gotta know the person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that’s a good answer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister:\u003c/strong> Yeah!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Like, I don’t, it just doesn’t make sense, people who just are homophobic for no good reason. Like, for things that don’t affect them, people that they don’t know. Doesn’t make sense to me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah, like cyberbullying, like when people cyberbully people like you don’t know this person personally, but like, why do you want to be mean to them for no reason? Like you actually like the person, like if you’re taking time every day to, be rude like…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah. Like, if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say it at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister:\u003c/strong> Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>What do you want the future to look like for trans kids?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Uh, I hope that in the future everyone’s really supportive of them and that homophobia kind of disappears. It’s probably not, but like…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>That would be wonderful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Honestly, like, there’s nothing we can really do about people having their own opinions, but like, I feel like sometimes we can just keep our opinions to ourselves, you know, just like, shush.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>What are you most excited about for your future?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister \u003c/strong>Well, there’s two things, one, becoming an actor, like, I really want to be a child actor if there’s any agents listening. Hello, I’m here! Hi. But another thing is I would love to, like this, I love how I get to like share knowledge to other people that might not know about being trans or stuff. So I love to…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older Sister:\u003c/strong> To educate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah, to educate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Good answer. Papa, what do you hope that the future is like for trans kids, and what do you plan on doing to support trans kids?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>Oh, I support this one all the time. Uh, I’d do anything for her, and she knows that. I just, I don’t want the hurt that people give to trans people for there’s no reason. That’s uh, that’s what really gets me and your grandma the most. We just hate to see you hurt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>Well, I got a question for you. Have you ever talked so much to your sister before? Actually sat and chatted with your sister?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>I don’t think that a conversation like this has ever really come up. I regret not asking you more about being trans, but I’m glad that we have this opportunity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger sister: \u003c/strong>Yeah, like we never really have time, like you have a bunch of school and homework, and I have like Monday I have singing, Tuesday I have ballet…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>You have lots of commitments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger Sister: \u003c/strong>Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>I think that this has been very, very helpful, educational for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Younger Sister: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister \u003c/strong>And I think that having this conversation and just learning more about you and like who you are as a person will help me to better explain it to other people, you know, like to my friends and the rest of my family.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nYounger sister: \u003c/strong>And I hope for all the other trans kids and other trans people that this is very educational for them. Really, people that are not, like people that still trying to figure out who they are. I hope this helps people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>I’m excited to see what you do in the future. I know that you’ll achieve your dreams of being an actress.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa: \u003c/strong>I can’t tell you how proud I am of you two doing this. This is amazing to me. I could never ever do this at your age, especially.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Older sister: \u003c/strong>Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Grandpa:\u003c/strong> And you guys are doing a great job. Just very special, both of you guys are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>In our next conversation, we’re gonna hear a kid talking with their mom and their grandmother.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ba: \u003c/strong>It’s important in these times, you know, with all the misconceptions that are there, that we make our voice be heard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>They discuss what it’s meant to have their family’s support across generations. And by the way, we’re just using this kid’s first name to protect their privacy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan \u003c/strong>Hi, my name is Rohan, I’m 14 years old, non-binary, and my pronouns are they, them. I’m here with my mom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ma\u003c/strong>: Hi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan\u003c/strong>: And my grandma, who I call Ba.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ba\u003c/strong>: Hello.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan:\u003c/strong> She’s visiting from India.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>It’s not really our family culture to speak very publicly about you being trans, and in general, we’re very open about it, actually, in our community and our family. And so it’s not something secret at all, but we’re not used to talking about it publicly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan: \u003c/strong>There’s not really a moment I can think of when I like found out I was trans or something, I’ve always felt like I didn’t fit into either of the main gender categories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and as your mom, I can say that. You’ve always been you. Even when you were one years old, two years old, three years old, you know, really very young.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ba: \u003c/strong>When they actually came out with it, I was very glad because I just never liked the fact of anyone having to hide something because I feel that it affects their personality, and all, whereas Rohan came out with it, we all were happy to share it with friends, you know, and that’s been good. And if I can go further, actually, for me, what has been very important is to see the child thrive. And I’ve seen Rohan thriving. I mean, I’ve seen them playing football, doing those miniature paintings, being good at school, and just more than anything else, being a very sensitive, loving child. And that for me has been most important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>There were a few things in your childhood that were very distinctive, like you never wore conventional like the short swimsuit, you know, you always wanted to wear the top as well, otherwise you would refuse to, even when you were very small, two, three years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ba: \u003c/strong>You know, for me, there’s just that one memory where we were at the dining table and a friend was visiting and Rohan whispered to you to say that share, and I said it is such a good moment for me that you know not only was there a coming out but there was such a confidence about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Oh my gosh, I had forgotten that moment. That was a really precious moment. You were such a little one. And when you were excited, I also remember when we were discussing with the counselor, you know, she was advising that you could come out. Actually, we didn’t know about non-binary and they/them pronouns. So when we were talking about your gender fluidity and she asked you what’s your coming out plan. You were a little kid, Rohan of seven, eight years old. And she asked, “Who would you like to come out to?” And you said, “Everybody.” And I remember that was really one of my favorite moments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan: \u003c/strong>I feel like one of the things was it really like, somehow I feel like I was opened up to an even bigger community, like, and that was really special, I think, like of all the different, you know, like LGBTQ kids and…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>So yeah, that’s one of the unexpected boons, isn’t it, Rohan, finding that community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan: \u003c/strong>Yeah, there’s so many nice moments like going to Pride and going to like groups where there’s like so many other like trans and non-binary or anyone who’s LGBTQ kids, and I just feel like I can connect with people so well there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, do you want to talk about some of the challenges on the other side, the challenges of being trans in this world?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan: \u003c/strong>For me, one of the biggest things is bathroom dysphoria, like especially being non-binary, I never know, I don’t want to go in either of the like male or female bathrooms and like especially in like big public spaces. Even if it’s like in a like area that’s very supportive, I feel really uncomfortable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom\u003c/strong>: If there’s a non-binary, if there’s an all-gender bathroom available, does that make it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan: \u003c/strong>Yeah, definitely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>That addresses it, huh? So that’s the solution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Any other challenges you’ve experienced or difficulties?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan: \u003c/strong>So, also, another thing is immigration when we’re going to see my grandparents in India, sometimes it’s tough explaining to the immigration agent like what non-binary is and sometimes like the, they’re like trying to talk to me in Hindi or like, and that’s sometimes a language barrier and like what it says on the passport may not match how they perceive me. I feel like worried. If we get into the country or not is based on their decisions. So it’s always a very stressful time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>I think my mom and I have talked about this, that as parents, as grandparents, we just want to protect our child and protect their right to be a child and dealing with these types of things with how to use the bathroom and navigating immigration. These are things which I know I, as a child, never had to think about. The adults in the world took care of it and made it easy and safe for me. I think that’s the toughest as an adult to not be able to control that I can make a world that children can be carefree and safe in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ba:\u003c/strong> This is such an important part of caring for our own children and, by extension, our grandchildren, and what it would mean not just for our grandchildren but for communities at large to see. We all feel it, and we all are together in it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> The safety of children is a community sport. It’s a team sport. Putting flags, rainbow flags and trans flags everywhere. Whenever I see a rainbow flag anywhere, I feel that it’s a signal that I am safe to be myself there. I know it makes difference to me as the parent of a trans child. I’ll be biking through the neighborhood, and in a way, it’s such a small cosmetic thing, putting a flag up outside your house, but it makes big difference.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I really feel like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Do you feel that too?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Buy some flags.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ba: \u003c/strong>I think we are able to have conversations and just feel more open, more close to each other as family. And then I realized that it opened up another horizon for me. Like one day, I walked into an LGBTQ meeting in Bombay. I’d never done that before. And there were only two of us who were not in that category. Maybe we all are a bit in that category, but strikingly so. So it was a universe which I entered in because of you. And then one time, during a literary festival, I went to listen to transgender poetry. And I had not been aware of that whole scene in Bombay, and so my college, where I had studied, has an LGBTQ club. And I’ve got connected to that. And I’m looking forward to an opportunity to talk to grandparents through that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan:\u003c/strong> I mean, Ba, you saw this firsthand, but like, where the family in India, especially like the family that was like 90 or more years older, like still really tries and understands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom\u003c/strong>: The way that she explained, the way you explained, mama and helped people understand how Rohan is, you know what it’s like because for many of them they had no exposure whatsoever to, maybe not even to LGBTQ, for some of our really elderly, forget trans. Just to have you know my 80 plus, 90 plus relative unanimously, not had one relative who when we go back home Rohan can’t be themselves with that even and so by extension I can’t be myself with. And that, even though it’s around this topic of being trans, I think in a way made me feel more safe about being myself, myself, in general. Because I realize that people are more capable than I might have guessed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan: \u003c/strong>India has been such like a happy memory in general for me, like, and I’m always excited to go now because it’s like there’s so much support and love there in that family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ba: \u003c/strong>And I just want to give the context that the family that my husband comes from is really a Marwadi, conservative family, and my own family, maybe a little forward, but otherwise a bit right-wing, you get the picture. And yet, before Rohan came to India, last time especially, because now they had grown up, I wanted them all to know before they met them, you know, so that there would really be no quizzical looks or anything, there’d just be a joyful feeling of a grandchild visiting. We’ve got a large family, so I would tell one person from the family to inform everybody else. If one talks in a certain way, then awareness does increase and something does shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, Ba, thanks for sharing that. Can you reflect on whether there was something about the way that you introduced people to the topic that got the reaction that you got?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ba: \u003c/strong>I realized that there’s no sense in being forceful or angry, you know. I just, it’s important to reach, not to confront anyone. People always love it when somebody wants to share something. I didn’t say, I want to tell you, or I want you to know. Get into a conversation in some form, like encourage them to ask if a question popped up in their mind. I remember that there was an 83-year-old woman who was like you know, I’ve never heard of this do you mind if I ask more questions? I said no, I want you to ask more questions, and if you can talk to others about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>You know, Ba, you’re a real leader, you are held in high respect in our family. And I think also you drew on that in the sense on the trust and respect people have for you. So you were sharing very much about how you feel. They could feel your comfort with it, your not just comfort, but joy about who Rohan is, your pride in Rohan, and then I think that people follow suit a little bit with someone they respect and trust.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ba: \u003c/strong>One thing was my own intrinsic love for Rohan. That’s the first, but also, I think my own experience as having grown up in India at a time when there was so much gender discrimination and bias against women. So I somehow know in my bones how it feels, you know, so that the combined effect of that, think, gave me a certain energy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in and out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Rohan, you also have family in Wyoming from your dad’s side. And so how has that story played out?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mean, I feel like it’s kind of like a bit of an unfinished story. Like we haven’t yet told them, but like in Wyoming, like that community, it is a bit of a conservative community. But I mean I’m still hopeful that maybe, you know, it could be the same situation as what happened in India. Like, we kind of expected the worst, but then it was so amazing to see all these like, people understanding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Yeah. And so though it’s unfinished, do you feel sad about that? Or kind of a sense of anything negative, dread or uncertainty or?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan\u003c/strong>: Not really. I feel like I’m kind of hopeful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> Rohan, have you ever imagined or thought about not being trans or wished you were cisgender?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan: \u003c/strong>Um, I feel like sometimes, yeah, maybe I think about what it might have been like if I wasn’t trans, but it’s never like a, like it’s almost like thinking about what would it be like for a different person who’s not trans. It’s not like, what if I was not trans? I mean, it’s who I am, I’d be a different person if I wasn’t trans. Like it’s almost like saying like, oh, what if I had chosen to be a different height? Or what if I had chosen for my skin color to be different? Like, it’s kind of who you are, and I’m happy to be who I am.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ba: \u003c/strong>I very, very strongly feel that everyone has a right to be what they are. I think change happens. It happens slowly, but it does happen. So we keep our faith alive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> Great. And now the most important question, which family member has supported you best? Who gets the award?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan\u003c/strong>: Everyone!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom:\u003c/strong> Rohan, I know that you were very hesitant to do this, so thanks for doing it. Thanks for taking a chance on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan: \u003c/strong>I mean, I feel like in the end, all the stress when we did this fully went away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ba: \u003c/strong>I have to say that I felt teary in between. Just we’ve talked about these things, it’s not new, but talking like this, I think I feel very heartened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that’s how I feel. My heart feels very full.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rohan: \u003c/strong>I’m really happy we did this. You know, I feel like we’re giving a message out to people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Next week in the \u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em> series, we’ll hear a dad talking with his two gender-expansive teenagers. Both rugby players who’ve faced different kinds of challenges on the field.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kid: \u003c/strong>I am a person like you, and I am just here to play rugby and now I will tackle you, please stop being patronizing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>That’s next week on \u003cem>The California Report Magazine\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The interviews in our \u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em> series were produced by me, Sasha Khokha, Tessa Paoli, Srishti Prabha and Suzie Racho with help this week from Gabriela Glueck. Our senior editor is Victoria Mauleon. Our engineer is Brendan Willard, with additional mixing from Katherine Monahan. Srishti Prabha is our intern. Special thanks to Tuck Woodstock, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.genderpodcast.com/\">Gender Reveal podcast\u003c/a>, for his help on the series. And to KQED’s Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ana de Almeida Amaral and Anna Vignet. We’ll be releasing all of the stories in our \u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em> series on our podcast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The California Report Magazine, Your State, Your stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "introducing-love-you-for-you-conversations-between-trans-kids-and-their-loved-ones",
"title": "Introducing 'Love You for You:' Conversations Between Trans Kids and Their Loved Ones",
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"headTitle": "Introducing ‘Love You for You:’ Conversations Between Trans Kids and Their Loved Ones | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/transgender\">Transgender\u003c/a> and nonbinary kids have been in the headlines a lot lately, and recent \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/trump-administration\">Trump administration\u003c/a> policies have only intensified this focus. But we rarely hear these young people tell their own stories, about growing up with love and support from their families and communities, or about their complex, multifaceted identities that go beyond gender.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/love-you-for-you\">\u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em>\u003c/a> series takes a unique approach, featuring conversations between trans and nonbinary youth from across California and the people in their lives who love and mentor them: parents, grandparents, siblings and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This series features six conversations, packaged into three episodes. (Note that most families participating in the series have decided not to use their names to protect their identities).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, we’ll hear kids exploring identity and coming out to family. In the first conversation, a nonbinary 8-year-old talks with their mom about navigating school life and connecting with their Vietnamese and Taiwanese relatives. Then, 16-year-old Hunter Stoval sits down with his mom’s best friend, Shirin Amini, who came out as a lesbian at his age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC9033219123\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Guests:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>A mom and 8-year-old nonbinary kid (they/them)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Hunter Stoval, a 16-year-old trans boy (he/him) and Shirin Amini (she/her)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12062276\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/2.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12062276\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/2.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/2.png 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/2-160x90.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/2-1536x864.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/2-1600x900.png 1600w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An illustration of an 8-year-old and their mom (who wish to remain anonymous for safety) in a photo booth. As part of “Love You for You,” a new California Report Magazine series uplifting the voices of trans youth, the kid talks to their mom about navigating their gender identity at school and with their Vietnamese and Taiwanese relatives. \u003ccite>(Anna Vignet/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>Love You for You Episode 1: Coming Out to Love \u003c/strong>\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Hey, it’s Sasha Khokha. And here on the California Report’s weekly magazine show, we get to do something really special: take deep dives into issues that shape who we are as Californians. Spend time to really get to know the people whose stories and voices we bring you. So you can understand the complexity of their experience. The nuances, not just the headlines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Well, over the next few weeks, we’re gonna do just that by introducing you to some transgender, nonbinary and other gender expansive youth and their families.[aside postID=news_12061591 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250331-Trans-Newsom-Rally-AC-02-KQED-1020x680.jpg']Trans kids have been in the headlines a lot recently, especially since the Trump Administration has started targeting them through executive orders and policies.We’ve been hearing a lot of debates over whether they’re being harmed by the medical system or their schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But we’re not hearing much from those young people themselves about their lives. And most media coverage focuses on the hardships trans kids can face: suicide risk, depression, rejection from their families, lack of access to supportive care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All of those factors are real. But I’ve got some amazing trans and nonbinary kids in my life, and it seems like we rarely hear stories about these young people are thriving with love and support from their families and communities. And how trans youth actually have complex, multifaceted identities that go beyond their gender. They’re scholars, siblings, artists, athletes and so much more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So over the next few weeks, we’ll introduce you to some gender-expansive youth from across California and the people in their lives who love, support, and mentor them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Montage of voices\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Being trans, of course it’s a big deal, but I wish it didn’t feel like such a big deal. I wish I just felt like, you now, another fun thing about me instead of my whole identity? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>What do you want people who are targeting trans kids right now to know about your grandkid? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Just about how special she is. That you gotta know the person. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Thanks for letting me be who I am. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>And thank you for letting me be your parent and for letting me love you. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>What are you hopeful for the future will look like for trans kids?\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>All the trans people I know have one vision and it is just a society where being trans isn’t this whole like thing, right?Where I can just say, ‘Hey, I’m trans,’ and everyone’s like, ‘OK, cool.’\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>We’re gonna take a page from the long-running storytelling project “Storycorps” and listen in as these young people have conversations with their parents, their grandparents, or their mentors, about how they can thrive with love. We’re calling the series “Love You for You.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, we’ll hear from two young people. An 8-year-old in conversation with their mom…and then, a 16-year-old talking to his “Aunty” – his mom’s best friend, who’s a lesbian. And just a note, many of the youth in this series have chosen to stay anonymous and not use their names out of fear that they and their families could face harm in this current climate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here’s our first conversation…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Mother and child speak in Vietnamese: I will ask some questions so the answer is in American. OK.]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> Can you tell me a little bit about yourself?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child\u003c/strong>: I like to play soccer and read, and my family is from Asia, like Vietnam and Taiwan, and my pronouns is they/them and I’m 8 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What are you most proud of about me?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> What am I most proud of about you? Um, I think in terms of being non-binary that you knew when you were very young. You were only about four years old and you just kind of told me that you weren’t sure that you fit being either a boy or a girl and you felt maybe like you were neither or both.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so that was something for us to learn because we didn’t think kids that young knew that about themselves. And so we had to learn a lot about it and support you. And you’ve always just kind stuck with it, even though people ask a lot, like, ‘How do you know?’ Like you just know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music bridge \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> What does it feel like to be non-binary?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child: \u003c/strong>Um, Different\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> Different in what way?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child:\u003c/strong> Just kids sometimes tease me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother: \u003c/strong>Kids sometimes tease you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> What do they say?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child: \u003c/strong>They’re just like, like ‘Why are you in here? You’re not allowed to.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> Oh, when you go to the bathrooms?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> And it sounds like that made you feel bad. I remember it made you feel really sad when you were little.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child: \u003c/strong>I’m sad that, like, some people don’t like that I’m non-binary and they don’t want it to be allowed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> Oh, yeah, do you mean at school or just like in the world?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child:\u003c/strong> In the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> In the world. Yeah, it feels like you can’t be yourself?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> Does it feel like there’s, like, new rules about it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> Yeah? And that makes you sad?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music sneaks in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> And before it was hard, if people got your pronouns wrong, you wouldn’t say anything. And now you’ll correct people. And like at school, like sometimes you wear a bracelet that says what your pronouns are. You know, we found ways at school to find safe spaces for bathrooms, right? You’ll go to the principal’s office or in the library. Um, but sometimes if you want to use the restroom, you’re not letting other kids like bully you, um, out of the space anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child: \u003c/strong>If they say I can’t, I’m just like ‘Too bad. I’m gonna go anyway.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> Yeah.(laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You have really good friends at school that use the buddy system and they’ll go with you, too, so it’s almost like you have an extra person there that’s an ally. And then how about at home? What about our family?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child: \u003c/strong>You like use my correct pronouns, and if you say it wrong, then you correct yourself and say sorry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> Do you feel like the rest of our family and friends have been OK with your pronouns or do you think they understand it? Like grandma?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child:\u003c/strong> Yeah, fifty-fifty\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> Fifty-fifty. Yeah, I think sometimes, like, aunties will understand it and then your uncles kind of forget sometimes, huh? (Child yeah) And then your grandma’s, it’s a little hard because in our languages, there are no pronouns. And so for them, it’s everybody’s a they, or they mix hes and shes a lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child:\u003c/strong> Maybe like the future could just be like people accept they/them or trans just as like would they accept she or he right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child:\u003c/strong> Like the same.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> What do you hope the future is going to be like for trans and non-binary kids like you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child:\u003c/strong> I hope that it’s like you can just be trans or non-binary and no one will like judge you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child:\u003c/strong> What are your dreams for me?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> What are my dreams for you? Um, I hope in the future that it’s safe for you to be who you are and continue to be who you are. I feel like in the Bay Area, we’re pretty lucky and our family has been really supported in our community. And I hope that that can extend outside of, you know, where we live and kind of in the world. And I just hope that you can be happy, happy with who you are. And I don’t know, that you just get to be and do the things that you want to do and that people don’t put like limits on what you can do because of your gender identity. Yeah. And I hope that people can be as kind as you and as accepting as you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child:\u003c/strong> And thanks for letting me be who I am.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And thank you for letting me be your parent and for letting me love you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child:\u003c/strong> You’re welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Hunter and Shirin \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong style=\"font-size: 16px\">Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>\u003cspan style=\"font-size: 16px;font-weight: 400\">That kind of support – allowing gender-expansive kids to just be who they are – can come from many people in their lives…whether it’s a parent or someone else.\u003c/span>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval\u003cem>:\u003c/em>\u003c/strong> Hi, I’m Hunter. I’m 16 years old and I am a trans guy. And my pronouns are he, him. Now introduce yourself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini:\u003c/strong> OK. My name is Shirin. I am 48 years old. I identify as a lesbian. I came out of the closet in 1993. That was another century ago. And my pronouns are she and her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Meet Hunter Stoval and Shirin Amini. Shirin is Hunter’s mom’s best friend. She’s known him his whole life. And she’s kind of Aunty to him. Let’s hear their conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>I think both of us have been through a lot in the past few years, which has made us a lot closer. We text a lot, we call a lot. You know all of my gossip. And I think since I came out, that’s only made us closer since we have even more things in common now. And yeah, I would say beyond you being my aunt, you’re one of my closest friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini: \u003c/strong>Oh, I love that because I was just, as you were talking, I was like, you know, yeah, ‘You’re like my nephew, but actually I feel like more just a friend’. So tell me about being trans. Will you remind me of your like coming out story?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so I came out probably two and a half or three years ago when I was still in middle school. And I first came out to my friends who were super supportive. And then I came to my parents. And it was very scary. It was probably the hardest thing I’ve ever done. I had been planning what I was going to say for a very long time. I wrote my mom a letter and I read it to her. And she didn’t really know what was going on, I would say, but she was supportive of me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think I came out to my mom the night prior to coming out to you, but I do think I came out to you before I came out to my dad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>And I think that was helpful for my mom as well so that she could have someone to talk to because she did tell me it was hard for her to keep secrets from my dad, So, I’m glad that she had you to rely on, and you to kind of almost help her through and um, because I know you understand, so….\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini:\u003c/strong> I remember the night that you came out to me. We were in your room, and I was sitting on the floor, and you were on your bed, and we were talking. And I think maybe dating myself, my gaydar went off (laughs). And I had, like, this hunch, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I know I asked about your pronouns. And that was the first time you told me that they were he and they, at that time. And now, I don’t really think they is the pronoun you identify with, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think part of my coming out … there’s definitely like a very common she/her, she/they, they/them, like a shift from, you know, one gender identity, like shifting from female to male. And I think at the time, I kind of included “they” in my pronouns because I was like, ‘Oh, I don’t want to make it difficult for other people. I wanna make this, you know, easy on everyone. If they don’t know my pronouns, like I won’t cry if they call me they,’ but that didn’t last very long, turns out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini: \u003c/strong>I was so happy that you told me and I feel like there was a little bit of excitement, right? There is like this relief. And so then I felt like, OK, we all right. It like bonded us a little bit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>Yeah. It might be because I’m older or it might be because of, you know, we’re both queer, a combination of the two, but I definitely think it made us closer because you felt like someone I could rely on as one of, as an older queer person, that I’m super, you now, close to and have known for the past 16 years of my life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>So, can you tell me about your coming out story? How old were you when you came out?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini: \u003c/strong>I was exactly your age. I was 16, it was 1993. And so when I came out, I first came out to my mom, who is a very loving and supportive mother. But back then she didn’t have any friends who had other gay children. She didn’t have any gay friends and I was like the only one. Which might seem bizarre today because it seems like most people know people in the LGBTQ+ community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The way I came out was my mom asked me, ‘Well, you’re not gay, are you?’ \u003cem>[Hunter laughs]\u003c/em> Which is always a great way to set up a question. And instead of confirming that I was not, I told her that, well, actually I was.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And for me, there was a ton of shame, because as supportive as my mom wanted to be, she was shocked and disappointed. And so I could feel that. And… It felt like immediately I was on this island by myself. And so I kind of carry that experience with me. And I think that it relates or I assume that a lot of trans kids and coming out kind of feel a little bit like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think I felt a similar way with my dad, who now is such a big supporter of me, but he had a very different upbringing than me, and doesn’t know any other parents with trans kids, I think, which makes it a bit harder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So there was definitely a lot of, you know, shock and how do I feel about this and, you know, what are the next steps? But I think you were really helpful with that because my parents did know queer people, mostly, like, gay people or lesbian people, but regardless queer, so it really could have been worse. I’m very grateful for, you know, my community. I have a lot of family that lives locally who I’m really close to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini:\u003c/strong> Awesome. I will say one thing that’s been really exciting, I guess, to see and watch is how you have come out and I’ve learned so much from you and I actually feel like you’ve been so inspirational to me even and I kind of look back and I think, ‘Oh my gosh, I wish I had the courage that you had when I came out,’ because you’re so authentic and you’re so yourself and you don’t feel that you have to fit a certain mold which I think is extremely powerful, to say that you’re trans this is how you feel, this is who you are And I think that that has been something that’s been really powerful for me to watch and learn and actually even help me be more authentic person even at this age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini:\u003c/strong> So I think about like what an amazing human you are and all of your interests and things that you do. What would you say your superpower is?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>I would say my superpower is being creative. I’m really into art, I’m into fashion, and I think that helps me express my identity in creative ways. I am not super worried about being the most masculine person on earth. I love just wearing what I think is cute. I love fashion, I love creating art and writing about who I am, and I wouldn’t have it any way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini:\u003c/strong> I totally agree, especially with your fits. You are a little bit of a fashionista, so I can always get some tips from you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>So, one of the other things I want to talk about is what has someone in your life done to make you feel supported in your identity?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini:\u003c/strong> I think, honestly, that your mom was the most supportive person in my life, that was kind of a rock, like my rock of Gibraltar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I remember when I came out to your mom. We were parked out in front of her house in my 1979 baby blue Monte Carlo. I was dropping her off at night and I was so nervous. And back in that day, you kind of prefaced it with like, ‘Well, I think I’m bisexual. I don’t know, you know, I don’t really know if I’m totally gay.’ And your mom was like, ‘Yeah, I know, I’m not surprised,’ and I think I was more shocked. And then after that was in high school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I think just having one person in your life that was just not embarrassed, like would be by my side. It was kind of like having this confidence kick by you. And that made actually a really significant difference. Somebody that was like open and go to gay pride parades with me and go out to places. I think that was the most helpful thing to have in my life especially at the beginning when I was younger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Do you have somebody in your life? I mean, I’m curious what somebody has done to make you feel really supported through all this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>When I came out to my grandmother, instead of questioning anything, she’s a very solution-oriented person, and she was immediately like, ‘OK, so what does that mean? Like, what should we do?’ And there was no shock or whatever. She was just immediately so supportive of me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then another thing that someone has done is my dad. I had to get my passport renewed, and there was a little option to change your gender marker, and he was like, ‘OK, do you want to change it to male?’ So now my passport says male on it, which you know feels so great and it feels really affirming, especially coming from my dad when our relationship was a little bit rocky when I first came out. He’s definitely grown a lot and I’m super proud of him in that way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini:\u003c/strong> Just to clarify, Hunter, this all happened before the election, right? That you did this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>This was before the election, but this was when we kind of knew that Donald Trump was going to run for president and that with him possibly in office at the time, that that could affect a lot of things related to transgender rights and stuff like that. So…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini:\u003c/strong> I’m happy you did it. It’s like you got in and like that window almost. I’ve been married more than once, but the first time I got married, there was a window right before Prop. 8 came out in California. They were allowing same-sex marriage and there was this window of opportunity that my partner and I seized at the time and went and got married during that window.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>Can you explain what Prop. 8 is?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini: \u003c/strong>Yeah, Prop. 8, which the LGBTQ community called “Prop Hate,” was a proposition that was very controversial to ban gay marriage in California. And they did ban gay marriage. And it was several years that gay people were banned from being married. However, those of us who got married in that window where it was legal for a short time were still considered married. I think that a lot of younger people can’t even imagine that could have been illegal and kind of the anti-gay sentiment\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the ’90s, when I came out, and there was a big incident that you’re probably not aware of, there was a big incident with a young guy named Matthew Shepard, who was gay, and he was killed in a homophobic gay hate crime. And that really rocked the gay community at that time. And I think ultimately, hopefully, we now feel safer; however, I think that the trans community may still be in a similar position today, and that I don’t want.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval:\u003c/strong> I still feel a sense of community with all the trans people in this country and in the world, and it’s really sad to see, in my opinion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini: \u003c/strong>What do you feel is the most difficult thing about where you are being trans youth at like your age or if you could change one thing or one thing that you struggle with, if you’re willing to share.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>I think for me, my biggest issue is in gender dysphoria. So, like, feeling, you know, insecure about my voice, feeling insecure about my body. Luckily, I’ve been gifted with height, so…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval:\u003c/strong> I know that’s an issue for a lot of, especially trans men. I love feeling confident in myself, but there are days where I do not feel confident. So yeah, it is hard, but it has gotten easier. And I hope that all trans people, especially the ones who are planning on coming out or just came out. I hope they know it does, it does get easier. And you know, I used to hate being trans, but now I love it. I have made so many friends and so many connections this way and gotten so much closer to my family too, which is really amazing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini:\u003c/strong> That’s awesome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>What do you hope the future looks like for trans people or queer people in general?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini:\u003c/strong> In my perfect world, I hope that it’s NBD, it’s like no big deal, that people have parents who are trans, children who are trans, everybody knows somebody. And it’s just become pretty much mainstream and acceptable. That coming out isn’t a big deal, that trans people have all the same rights that non-trans people have. The other thing is I want the future to be safe for trans and non-binary kids. And I think that it’s still unfortunately not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What do you want your future to look like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval:\u003c/strong> Um, I feel the same way. I think, you know, being trans has, of course it’s a big deal, but I wish it didn’t feel like such a big deal. I wish I just felt like, you now, another fun thing about me instead of my whole identity? I’m so much more than being trans and being trans is really hard and it could be so much easier, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One thing that I really wish people would understand is that it’s OK to be confused when someone comes out, but it’s not an excuse to invalidate them. It’s OK for things to change. It’s OK that things weren’t like how they were when you were a kid and you know, the least you can do when someone comes out is just say, OK, I’m here for you, and I promise you the person coming out to you is having a harder time than you receiving the news.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini:\u003c/strong> That is so true, Hunter. I actually was thinking that. I was like, well, for as much as it makes some people uncomfortable, it’s so much more uncomfortable being on the coming out side. It’s really difficult. I do think that you are a bit of a pioneer. Whether you want to be or not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I look back, and I kind of think, maybe I was a little bit of a pioneer. And there were a lot of people who were not accepting of gays, lesbians, let alone trans back then. And I think that I was able to change a lot of people’s minds as they got to know me. And it’s really important to come out because once people actually know that the people that they love and care about are LGBTQ, that’s when you change minds. And I’m really proud of you. It does take a lot of courage and I really hope that by you coming out now, I really believe that you’re changing a lot of people’s minds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much. And I really agree with that. I think a lot of the people who have come out too, like that I’m not super close to, but people still in my life, like my parents’ friends or whatever, I might be one of the first trans people that they’ve met and it feels really good to just be around them and be myself and help them understand, I’m still the same person as I was before I came out. It’s just you know, a slight shift in what pronoun you use for me, but besides that, I’m still me, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini: \u003c/strong>Yep.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stovall: \u003c/strong>I think everyone should have a Shirin in their life. Like an older role model who’s also your friend, who you can tell anything and you know they won’t tell your parents unless you ask them to and they’re there to advocate for you and call you when you need anything. Just having that mentor-friend combination is just, you know, so perfect, so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini:\u003c/strong> Well, I love you with all my heart, always will, no matter what. And I wish everyone had a Hunter in their life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>You’re so sweet. (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music comes out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>16-year-old Hunter Stoval in conversation with his special Aunty, Shirin Amini as part of our series \u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em> where transgender and nonbinary kids are talking with people who love and support them and help them to thrive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Next week a conversation between kids and their grandparents…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Older sister: What do you want people who are targeting trans kids right now to know about your grandkid? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Grandpa: \u003c/em>\u003cem>Just about how special she is. That you gotta know the person.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Upbeat music in\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nSasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>That’s next week on the California Report Magazine.\u003cbr>\nThe interviews in our Love You for You series were produced by Tessa Paoli and Suzie Racho. Our senior editor is Victoria Mauleon. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Srishti Prabha is our intern. Special thanks to Tuck Woodstock, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.genderpodcast.com/\">Gender Reveal podcas\u003c/a>\u003ca href=\"https://www.genderpodcast.com/\">t,\u003c/a> for all his help on the series.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Special thanks to KQED’s Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ana de Almeida Amaral and Anna Vignet for their help on the series.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Sasha Khokha of the California Report Magazine, Your State, Your stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/transgender\">Transgender\u003c/a> and nonbinary kids have been in the headlines a lot lately, and recent \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/trump-administration\">Trump administration\u003c/a> policies have only intensified this focus. But we rarely hear these young people tell their own stories, about growing up with love and support from their families and communities, or about their complex, multifaceted identities that go beyond gender.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/love-you-for-you\">\u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em>\u003c/a> series takes a unique approach, featuring conversations between trans and nonbinary youth from across California and the people in their lives who love and mentor them: parents, grandparents, siblings and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This series features six conversations, packaged into three episodes. (Note that most families participating in the series have decided not to use their names to protect their identities).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, we’ll hear kids exploring identity and coming out to family. In the first conversation, a nonbinary 8-year-old talks with their mom about navigating school life and connecting with their Vietnamese and Taiwanese relatives. Then, 16-year-old Hunter Stoval sits down with his mom’s best friend, Shirin Amini, who came out as a lesbian at his age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC9033219123\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Guests:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>A mom and 8-year-old nonbinary kid (they/them)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Hunter Stoval, a 16-year-old trans boy (he/him) and Shirin Amini (she/her)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12062276\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/2.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12062276\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/2.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/2.png 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/2-160x90.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/2-1536x864.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/2-1600x900.png 1600w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An illustration of an 8-year-old and their mom (who wish to remain anonymous for safety) in a photo booth. As part of “Love You for You,” a new California Report Magazine series uplifting the voices of trans youth, the kid talks to their mom about navigating their gender identity at school and with their Vietnamese and Taiwanese relatives. \u003ccite>(Anna Vignet/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>Love You for You Episode 1: Coming Out to Love \u003c/strong>\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Hey, it’s Sasha Khokha. And here on the California Report’s weekly magazine show, we get to do something really special: take deep dives into issues that shape who we are as Californians. Spend time to really get to know the people whose stories and voices we bring you. So you can understand the complexity of their experience. The nuances, not just the headlines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Well, over the next few weeks, we’re gonna do just that by introducing you to some transgender, nonbinary and other gender expansive youth and their families.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Trans kids have been in the headlines a lot recently, especially since the Trump Administration has started targeting them through executive orders and policies.We’ve been hearing a lot of debates over whether they’re being harmed by the medical system or their schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But we’re not hearing much from those young people themselves about their lives. And most media coverage focuses on the hardships trans kids can face: suicide risk, depression, rejection from their families, lack of access to supportive care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All of those factors are real. But I’ve got some amazing trans and nonbinary kids in my life, and it seems like we rarely hear stories about these young people are thriving with love and support from their families and communities. And how trans youth actually have complex, multifaceted identities that go beyond their gender. They’re scholars, siblings, artists, athletes and so much more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So over the next few weeks, we’ll introduce you to some gender-expansive youth from across California and the people in their lives who love, support, and mentor them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Montage of voices\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Being trans, of course it’s a big deal, but I wish it didn’t feel like such a big deal. I wish I just felt like, you now, another fun thing about me instead of my whole identity? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>What do you want people who are targeting trans kids right now to know about your grandkid? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Just about how special she is. That you gotta know the person. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Thanks for letting me be who I am. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>And thank you for letting me be your parent and for letting me love you. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>What are you hopeful for the future will look like for trans kids?\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>All the trans people I know have one vision and it is just a society where being trans isn’t this whole like thing, right?Where I can just say, ‘Hey, I’m trans,’ and everyone’s like, ‘OK, cool.’\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>We’re gonna take a page from the long-running storytelling project “Storycorps” and listen in as these young people have conversations with their parents, their grandparents, or their mentors, about how they can thrive with love. We’re calling the series “Love You for You.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, we’ll hear from two young people. An 8-year-old in conversation with their mom…and then, a 16-year-old talking to his “Aunty” – his mom’s best friend, who’s a lesbian. And just a note, many of the youth in this series have chosen to stay anonymous and not use their names out of fear that they and their families could face harm in this current climate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here’s our first conversation…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Mother and child speak in Vietnamese: I will ask some questions so the answer is in American. OK.]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> Can you tell me a little bit about yourself?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child\u003c/strong>: I like to play soccer and read, and my family is from Asia, like Vietnam and Taiwan, and my pronouns is they/them and I’m 8 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What are you most proud of about me?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> What am I most proud of about you? Um, I think in terms of being non-binary that you knew when you were very young. You were only about four years old and you just kind of told me that you weren’t sure that you fit being either a boy or a girl and you felt maybe like you were neither or both.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And so that was something for us to learn because we didn’t think kids that young knew that about themselves. And so we had to learn a lot about it and support you. And you’ve always just kind stuck with it, even though people ask a lot, like, ‘How do you know?’ Like you just know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music bridge \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> What does it feel like to be non-binary?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child: \u003c/strong>Um, Different\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> Different in what way?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child:\u003c/strong> Just kids sometimes tease me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother: \u003c/strong>Kids sometimes tease you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> What do they say?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child: \u003c/strong>They’re just like, like ‘Why are you in here? You’re not allowed to.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> Oh, when you go to the bathrooms?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child: \u003c/strong>Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> And it sounds like that made you feel bad. I remember it made you feel really sad when you were little.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child: \u003c/strong>I’m sad that, like, some people don’t like that I’m non-binary and they don’t want it to be allowed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> Oh, yeah, do you mean at school or just like in the world?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child:\u003c/strong> In the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> In the world. Yeah, it feels like you can’t be yourself?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> Does it feel like there’s, like, new rules about it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> Yeah? And that makes you sad?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music sneaks in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> And before it was hard, if people got your pronouns wrong, you wouldn’t say anything. And now you’ll correct people. And like at school, like sometimes you wear a bracelet that says what your pronouns are. You know, we found ways at school to find safe spaces for bathrooms, right? You’ll go to the principal’s office or in the library. Um, but sometimes if you want to use the restroom, you’re not letting other kids like bully you, um, out of the space anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child: \u003c/strong>If they say I can’t, I’m just like ‘Too bad. I’m gonna go anyway.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> Yeah.(laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You have really good friends at school that use the buddy system and they’ll go with you, too, so it’s almost like you have an extra person there that’s an ally. And then how about at home? What about our family?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child: \u003c/strong>You like use my correct pronouns, and if you say it wrong, then you correct yourself and say sorry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> Do you feel like the rest of our family and friends have been OK with your pronouns or do you think they understand it? Like grandma?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child:\u003c/strong> Yeah, fifty-fifty\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> Fifty-fifty. Yeah, I think sometimes, like, aunties will understand it and then your uncles kind of forget sometimes, huh? (Child yeah) And then your grandma’s, it’s a little hard because in our languages, there are no pronouns. And so for them, it’s everybody’s a they, or they mix hes and shes a lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child:\u003c/strong> Maybe like the future could just be like people accept they/them or trans just as like would they accept she or he right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child:\u003c/strong> Like the same.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> What do you hope the future is going to be like for trans and non-binary kids like you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child:\u003c/strong> I hope that it’s like you can just be trans or non-binary and no one will like judge you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child:\u003c/strong> What are your dreams for me?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> What are my dreams for you? Um, I hope in the future that it’s safe for you to be who you are and continue to be who you are. I feel like in the Bay Area, we’re pretty lucky and our family has been really supported in our community. And I hope that that can extend outside of, you know, where we live and kind of in the world. And I just hope that you can be happy, happy with who you are. And I don’t know, that you just get to be and do the things that you want to do and that people don’t put like limits on what you can do because of your gender identity. Yeah. And I hope that people can be as kind as you and as accepting as you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child:\u003c/strong> And thanks for letting me be who I am.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mother:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And thank you for letting me be your parent and for letting me love you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Child:\u003c/strong> You’re welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Hunter and Shirin \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong style=\"font-size: 16px\">Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>\u003cspan style=\"font-size: 16px;font-weight: 400\">That kind of support – allowing gender-expansive kids to just be who they are – can come from many people in their lives…whether it’s a parent or someone else.\u003c/span>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval\u003cem>:\u003c/em>\u003c/strong> Hi, I’m Hunter. I’m 16 years old and I am a trans guy. And my pronouns are he, him. Now introduce yourself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini:\u003c/strong> OK. My name is Shirin. I am 48 years old. I identify as a lesbian. I came out of the closet in 1993. That was another century ago. And my pronouns are she and her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>Meet Hunter Stoval and Shirin Amini. Shirin is Hunter’s mom’s best friend. She’s known him his whole life. And she’s kind of Aunty to him. Let’s hear their conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>I think both of us have been through a lot in the past few years, which has made us a lot closer. We text a lot, we call a lot. You know all of my gossip. And I think since I came out, that’s only made us closer since we have even more things in common now. And yeah, I would say beyond you being my aunt, you’re one of my closest friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini: \u003c/strong>Oh, I love that because I was just, as you were talking, I was like, you know, yeah, ‘You’re like my nephew, but actually I feel like more just a friend’. So tell me about being trans. Will you remind me of your like coming out story?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so I came out probably two and a half or three years ago when I was still in middle school. And I first came out to my friends who were super supportive. And then I came to my parents. And it was very scary. It was probably the hardest thing I’ve ever done. I had been planning what I was going to say for a very long time. I wrote my mom a letter and I read it to her. And she didn’t really know what was going on, I would say, but she was supportive of me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think I came out to my mom the night prior to coming out to you, but I do think I came out to you before I came out to my dad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>And I think that was helpful for my mom as well so that she could have someone to talk to because she did tell me it was hard for her to keep secrets from my dad, So, I’m glad that she had you to rely on, and you to kind of almost help her through and um, because I know you understand, so….\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini:\u003c/strong> I remember the night that you came out to me. We were in your room, and I was sitting on the floor, and you were on your bed, and we were talking. And I think maybe dating myself, my gaydar went off (laughs). And I had, like, this hunch, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I know I asked about your pronouns. And that was the first time you told me that they were he and they, at that time. And now, I don’t really think they is the pronoun you identify with, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think part of my coming out … there’s definitely like a very common she/her, she/they, they/them, like a shift from, you know, one gender identity, like shifting from female to male. And I think at the time, I kind of included “they” in my pronouns because I was like, ‘Oh, I don’t want to make it difficult for other people. I wanna make this, you know, easy on everyone. If they don’t know my pronouns, like I won’t cry if they call me they,’ but that didn’t last very long, turns out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini: \u003c/strong>I was so happy that you told me and I feel like there was a little bit of excitement, right? There is like this relief. And so then I felt like, OK, we all right. It like bonded us a little bit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>Yeah. It might be because I’m older or it might be because of, you know, we’re both queer, a combination of the two, but I definitely think it made us closer because you felt like someone I could rely on as one of, as an older queer person, that I’m super, you now, close to and have known for the past 16 years of my life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>So, can you tell me about your coming out story? How old were you when you came out?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini: \u003c/strong>I was exactly your age. I was 16, it was 1993. And so when I came out, I first came out to my mom, who is a very loving and supportive mother. But back then she didn’t have any friends who had other gay children. She didn’t have any gay friends and I was like the only one. Which might seem bizarre today because it seems like most people know people in the LGBTQ+ community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The way I came out was my mom asked me, ‘Well, you’re not gay, are you?’ \u003cem>[Hunter laughs]\u003c/em> Which is always a great way to set up a question. And instead of confirming that I was not, I told her that, well, actually I was.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And for me, there was a ton of shame, because as supportive as my mom wanted to be, she was shocked and disappointed. And so I could feel that. And… It felt like immediately I was on this island by myself. And so I kind of carry that experience with me. And I think that it relates or I assume that a lot of trans kids and coming out kind of feel a little bit like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think I felt a similar way with my dad, who now is such a big supporter of me, but he had a very different upbringing than me, and doesn’t know any other parents with trans kids, I think, which makes it a bit harder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So there was definitely a lot of, you know, shock and how do I feel about this and, you know, what are the next steps? But I think you were really helpful with that because my parents did know queer people, mostly, like, gay people or lesbian people, but regardless queer, so it really could have been worse. I’m very grateful for, you know, my community. I have a lot of family that lives locally who I’m really close to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini:\u003c/strong> Awesome. I will say one thing that’s been really exciting, I guess, to see and watch is how you have come out and I’ve learned so much from you and I actually feel like you’ve been so inspirational to me even and I kind of look back and I think, ‘Oh my gosh, I wish I had the courage that you had when I came out,’ because you’re so authentic and you’re so yourself and you don’t feel that you have to fit a certain mold which I think is extremely powerful, to say that you’re trans this is how you feel, this is who you are And I think that that has been something that’s been really powerful for me to watch and learn and actually even help me be more authentic person even at this age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini:\u003c/strong> So I think about like what an amazing human you are and all of your interests and things that you do. What would you say your superpower is?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>I would say my superpower is being creative. I’m really into art, I’m into fashion, and I think that helps me express my identity in creative ways. I am not super worried about being the most masculine person on earth. I love just wearing what I think is cute. I love fashion, I love creating art and writing about who I am, and I wouldn’t have it any way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini:\u003c/strong> I totally agree, especially with your fits. You are a little bit of a fashionista, so I can always get some tips from you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>So, one of the other things I want to talk about is what has someone in your life done to make you feel supported in your identity?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini:\u003c/strong> I think, honestly, that your mom was the most supportive person in my life, that was kind of a rock, like my rock of Gibraltar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I remember when I came out to your mom. We were parked out in front of her house in my 1979 baby blue Monte Carlo. I was dropping her off at night and I was so nervous. And back in that day, you kind of prefaced it with like, ‘Well, I think I’m bisexual. I don’t know, you know, I don’t really know if I’m totally gay.’ And your mom was like, ‘Yeah, I know, I’m not surprised,’ and I think I was more shocked. And then after that was in high school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I think just having one person in your life that was just not embarrassed, like would be by my side. It was kind of like having this confidence kick by you. And that made actually a really significant difference. Somebody that was like open and go to gay pride parades with me and go out to places. I think that was the most helpful thing to have in my life especially at the beginning when I was younger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Do you have somebody in your life? I mean, I’m curious what somebody has done to make you feel really supported through all this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>When I came out to my grandmother, instead of questioning anything, she’s a very solution-oriented person, and she was immediately like, ‘OK, so what does that mean? Like, what should we do?’ And there was no shock or whatever. She was just immediately so supportive of me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then another thing that someone has done is my dad. I had to get my passport renewed, and there was a little option to change your gender marker, and he was like, ‘OK, do you want to change it to male?’ So now my passport says male on it, which you know feels so great and it feels really affirming, especially coming from my dad when our relationship was a little bit rocky when I first came out. He’s definitely grown a lot and I’m super proud of him in that way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini:\u003c/strong> Just to clarify, Hunter, this all happened before the election, right? That you did this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>This was before the election, but this was when we kind of knew that Donald Trump was going to run for president and that with him possibly in office at the time, that that could affect a lot of things related to transgender rights and stuff like that. So…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini:\u003c/strong> I’m happy you did it. It’s like you got in and like that window almost. I’ve been married more than once, but the first time I got married, there was a window right before Prop. 8 came out in California. They were allowing same-sex marriage and there was this window of opportunity that my partner and I seized at the time and went and got married during that window.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>Can you explain what Prop. 8 is?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini: \u003c/strong>Yeah, Prop. 8, which the LGBTQ community called “Prop Hate,” was a proposition that was very controversial to ban gay marriage in California. And they did ban gay marriage. And it was several years that gay people were banned from being married. However, those of us who got married in that window where it was legal for a short time were still considered married. I think that a lot of younger people can’t even imagine that could have been illegal and kind of the anti-gay sentiment\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the ’90s, when I came out, and there was a big incident that you’re probably not aware of, there was a big incident with a young guy named Matthew Shepard, who was gay, and he was killed in a homophobic gay hate crime. And that really rocked the gay community at that time. And I think ultimately, hopefully, we now feel safer; however, I think that the trans community may still be in a similar position today, and that I don’t want.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval:\u003c/strong> I still feel a sense of community with all the trans people in this country and in the world, and it’s really sad to see, in my opinion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini: \u003c/strong>What do you feel is the most difficult thing about where you are being trans youth at like your age or if you could change one thing or one thing that you struggle with, if you’re willing to share.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>I think for me, my biggest issue is in gender dysphoria. So, like, feeling, you know, insecure about my voice, feeling insecure about my body. Luckily, I’ve been gifted with height, so…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval:\u003c/strong> I know that’s an issue for a lot of, especially trans men. I love feeling confident in myself, but there are days where I do not feel confident. So yeah, it is hard, but it has gotten easier. And I hope that all trans people, especially the ones who are planning on coming out or just came out. I hope they know it does, it does get easier. And you know, I used to hate being trans, but now I love it. I have made so many friends and so many connections this way and gotten so much closer to my family too, which is really amazing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini:\u003c/strong> That’s awesome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>What do you hope the future looks like for trans people or queer people in general?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini:\u003c/strong> In my perfect world, I hope that it’s NBD, it’s like no big deal, that people have parents who are trans, children who are trans, everybody knows somebody. And it’s just become pretty much mainstream and acceptable. That coming out isn’t a big deal, that trans people have all the same rights that non-trans people have. The other thing is I want the future to be safe for trans and non-binary kids. And I think that it’s still unfortunately not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What do you want your future to look like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval:\u003c/strong> Um, I feel the same way. I think, you know, being trans has, of course it’s a big deal, but I wish it didn’t feel like such a big deal. I wish I just felt like, you now, another fun thing about me instead of my whole identity? I’m so much more than being trans and being trans is really hard and it could be so much easier, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One thing that I really wish people would understand is that it’s OK to be confused when someone comes out, but it’s not an excuse to invalidate them. It’s OK for things to change. It’s OK that things weren’t like how they were when you were a kid and you know, the least you can do when someone comes out is just say, OK, I’m here for you, and I promise you the person coming out to you is having a harder time than you receiving the news.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini:\u003c/strong> That is so true, Hunter. I actually was thinking that. I was like, well, for as much as it makes some people uncomfortable, it’s so much more uncomfortable being on the coming out side. It’s really difficult. I do think that you are a bit of a pioneer. Whether you want to be or not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I look back, and I kind of think, maybe I was a little bit of a pioneer. And there were a lot of people who were not accepting of gays, lesbians, let alone trans back then. And I think that I was able to change a lot of people’s minds as they got to know me. And it’s really important to come out because once people actually know that the people that they love and care about are LGBTQ, that’s when you change minds. And I’m really proud of you. It does take a lot of courage and I really hope that by you coming out now, I really believe that you’re changing a lot of people’s minds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much. And I really agree with that. I think a lot of the people who have come out too, like that I’m not super close to, but people still in my life, like my parents’ friends or whatever, I might be one of the first trans people that they’ve met and it feels really good to just be around them and be myself and help them understand, I’m still the same person as I was before I came out. It’s just you know, a slight shift in what pronoun you use for me, but besides that, I’m still me, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini: \u003c/strong>Yep.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stovall: \u003c/strong>I think everyone should have a Shirin in their life. Like an older role model who’s also your friend, who you can tell anything and you know they won’t tell your parents unless you ask them to and they’re there to advocate for you and call you when you need anything. Just having that mentor-friend combination is just, you know, so perfect, so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music bridge\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirin Amini:\u003c/strong> Well, I love you with all my heart, always will, no matter what. And I wish everyone had a Hunter in their life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hunter Stoval: \u003c/strong>You’re so sweet. (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music comes out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>16-year-old Hunter Stoval in conversation with his special Aunty, Shirin Amini as part of our series \u003cem>Love You for You\u003c/em> where transgender and nonbinary kids are talking with people who love and support them and help them to thrive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Next week a conversation between kids and their grandparents…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Older sister: What do you want people who are targeting trans kids right now to know about your grandkid? \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Grandpa: \u003c/em>\u003cem>Just about how special she is. That you gotta know the person.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Upbeat music in\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nSasha Khokha: \u003c/strong>That’s next week on the California Report Magazine.\u003cbr>\nThe interviews in our Love You for You series were produced by Tessa Paoli and Suzie Racho. Our senior editor is Victoria Mauleon. Our engineer is Brendan Willard. Srishti Prabha is our intern. Special thanks to Tuck Woodstock, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.genderpodcast.com/\">Gender Reveal podcas\u003c/a>\u003ca href=\"https://www.genderpodcast.com/\">t,\u003c/a> for all his help on the series.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Special thanks to KQED’s Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ana de Almeida Amaral and Anna Vignet for their help on the series.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Sasha Khokha of the California Report Magazine, Your State, Your stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "KQED’s new podcast, Bay Curious, gets to the bottom of the mysteries — both profound and peculiar — that give the Bay Area its unique identity. And we’ll do it with your help! You ask the questions. You decide what Bay Curious investigates. And you join us on the journey to find the answers.",
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},
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},
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},
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"info": "KQED’s statewide radio news program providing daily coverage of issues, trends and public policy decisions.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/californiareport",
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"order": 8
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1MDAyODE4NTgz",
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},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM3NjkwNjk1OTAz",
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"meta": {
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"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
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},
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"order": 1
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"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
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"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
"link": "/radio/program/commonwealth-club",
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"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 9
},
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"meta": {
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},
"link": "/radio/program/freakonomics-radio",
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},
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"id": "fresh-air",
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"hidden-brain": {
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"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "NPR"
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"how-i-built-this": {
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"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
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},
"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"order": 15
},
"link": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"order": 18
},
"link": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
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}
},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
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"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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"rss": "https://feeds.publicradio.org/public_feeds/marketplace-pm/rss/rss"
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},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
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"source": "WaitWhat"
},
"link": "/radio/program/masters-of-scale",
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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