‘Oakland Faith Project’ Documents a Shifting Religious Landscape
How High School Became an Academic Pressure Cooker
Is California Ready for `The Big One?’
How Tariffs, Wildfire and Climate Change Threaten California Wine
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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Tuesday, October 13, 2026 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Oakland is home to dozens of houses of worship, and the “Oakland Faith Project,” aims to document these spaces and their leaders at a time when many are turning away from religion. Photographer and documentarian Nicolò Sertorio’s website includes stark black and white photography and interviews with religious leaders who represent various walks of life, identity and beliefs. We’ll talk with Sertorio, project partners and some of Oakland’s religious leaders about “de-churching” in the Bay Area and the future of organized religion. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio\u003c/strong>, founder, artist and photographer, Oakland Faith Project\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>James Campbell,\u003c/strong> Edgar E Robinson professor in United States History, Stanford University; partner, Oakland Faith Project\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin,\u003c/strong> senior rabbi, Temple Sinai\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid,\u003c/strong> imam, Lighthouse Mosque; Muslim Chaplain, University of San Francisco\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace,\u003c/strong> pastor, Mt. Zion Missionary Baptist Church\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Like many people, Nicolò Sertorio had his life turned upside down by COVID. He was a photographer, and suddenly his normal business was gone. Italian by birth and raised by two science professors, he’d been on his own spiritual path and had been struck by the pluralism of the religious scene in his adoptive home of Oakland. So when the pandemic started, he set out on a personal quest to photograph all of the city’s churches, mosques, synagogues, and other places of worship. Four hundred and sixty-six locations later, the Oakland Faith Project has expanded to include portraits of faith leaders and fascinating audio of them talking about their views and work in the community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So this hour, we’re going to be joined by some faith leaders, as well as the Oakland Faith Project folks. We’re joined first by Nicolò himself. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio:\u003c/strong> Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re also joined by James Campbell, Edgar E. Robinson Professor in United States History at Stanford, a partner and, I guess, the house historian at the Oakland Faith Project. Welcome, Jim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Campbell:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Nicolò, when COVID hit, you started this project. What do you think you were getting from this work of photographing these houses of worship?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio:\u003c/strong> Well, taking a brief step back, like you mentioned, and you can probably derive from my accent, I grew up in Italy. And so I was used to having pretty much just one church in each town, the Roman Catholic church. And they typically all kind of look the same. They’re all made of stone in the shape of a cross.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So one of the first things that really struck me when I came, moved to the U.S. was the number and diversity of houses of worship, particularly in Oakland, and how free and diverse they are. At the same time, I kept noticing how many of them were shutting down, being torn down, or reconverted into private apartments. And for years, I was wondering why nobody was recording this cultural phenomenon happening right around us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, like you mentioned, when COVID hit and all of a sudden all my businesses were shut down within hours, I realized this was something I was the one who had to do, and this was the perfect time. Honestly, at the time, I didn’t know what I was getting into.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But do you consider yourself more or less religious since you started working on this?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio:\u003c/strong> Oh, since I started? Yeah. Um, interesting question. I still consider myself spiritual but not religious, but I was positively impressed by the people that I met during this project. And so I confess I might have entered with a little bit of a bias from my Italian heritage, and instead I found people who are truly open-minded and liberal, and many have become friends.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s cool. Jim, give us some of the sociological context here. I mean, we know in Europe, obviously, religious affiliation started declining a long time ago. And the U.S. didn’t really follow that trend at first, but now has.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Campbell:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think the United States is an outlier in this. There’s just no question. You know, when we started getting a General Social Survey in the 1970s, American respondents were asked — I don’t think it was a very finely grained survey. It’s given every two years. You had five categories. You could identify yourself as Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, another world religion, or none of the above, religiously unaffiliated.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When that survey started, about 5% of Americans identified themselves as religiously unaffiliated. By the 1990s, believe it or not, that figure had only gone up to about 7%. Today, the General Social Survey has that figure over 30%. Some surveys put it significantly higher, particularly among younger people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the general phenomenon does look like what happened in Europe, a kind of broad process of de-churching, but it’s happening considerably later in this country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Do you think it’s just de-churching, or is it secularization? Are there ways of thinking about splitting out people who are spiritual but not religious?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Campbell:\u003c/strong> That’s a great question. When Nicolò just said, “Well, I consider myself spiritual but not religious,” that’s probably the largest church, if you will, in the United States in some fashion.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So there’s a debate among scholars about this, whether what we’re seeing represents a process of secularization per se, or more a shift in the meaning of spirituality or in the nature of religious experience. There’s a scholar, Robert, I think at Princeton, who writes about this, and a distinction he makes is a shift between what he calls a spirituality of dwelling, which is, you know, you attend the same church every week that your parents attended, and so forth, to a spirituality of seeking.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think that’s a really thought-provoking distinction. For me, a lot of Americans feel free now to fashion spiritual creeds of their own from eclectic materials, in ways that might look less orthodox on the surface. But if you scratch at it and start asking them about specific religious beliefs — do they believe in an afterlife? Do they believe in the presence of angels? — you find actually surprisingly orthodox beliefs even among many people who profess to be religiously unaffiliated.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Is there anything specific about our history of religion here in the Bay Area, or in Oakland even more specifically, that’s worth dwelling on?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Campbell:\u003c/strong> Well, you know, there certainly is a stereotype in the rest of the country that this area is full of godless heathens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Exactly.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Campbell:\u003c/strong> That we’re this kind of godless, forlorn people. I mean, I think the most significant factor here, which really defines the entire Bay Area and Oakland specifically, is that it’s a city of immigrants, and it always has been.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Churches and mosques and synagogues and other houses of worship have played a critical role in enabling immigrant communities to find their feet in a new setting, and also to retain some connection to ways of being, cultural practices, linguistic practices, even foodways, of the nations that they have left behind.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that is certainly what happened in the late 19th and early 20th centuries as Italians and Irish arrived. There were seven different Lutheran churches here in the early 20th century for various Scandinavian migrants. And now you would see the same thing with immigrants from Tonga, Ethiopia, or Eritrea.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So in that sense, there’s a kind of persistent through line. It’s just different immigrant groups, and the specifics of their religious practices might look different.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Interesting. Nicolò, as you worked on this project, you had a vision for what you wanted to ask these faith leaders about, right? You didn’t want just a general conversation. You had some specific things you asked them. What did you want to know from these faith leaders?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio:\u003c/strong> So I wanted to scratch a little bit under the surface. I wanted to talk to them about the issues that are happening around Oakland, and some of the issues that, at least in my upbringing, had pushed people away from traditional churchgoing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I’ve asked them about same-sex marriage. I’ve asked them about the drug epidemic, about the role of their church vis-à-vis politics. And that’s how I started to be so positively surprised by the people I was talking to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Great. Well, let’s bring in a few of these faith leaders that we’ve got here. We’ve got Jacqueline Mates-Muchin, who’s senior rabbi at Temple Sinai. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ve got Sundiata Rashid, who’s an imam at Lighthouse Mosque and also the Muslim chaplain at the University of San Francisco. Welcome!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> Thank you!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And we’ve got Michael Wallace, pastor at Mount Zion Missionary Baptist Church. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> We’re having a s—\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, thanks so much for coming in, everyone. What was it like, Michael Wallace, to have Nicolò come to you and say, “Hey, I want to photograph the church. I want to talk to you about things”?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> When he shared his vision that he wanted to highlight the faith community and Oakland’s legacy as a faith mecca for many different faiths, I was extremely excited and definitely lent all my support behind the project.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I thought that we have such a rich legacy in faith and in the city of Oakland, and so I wanted to be a part of that and make sure we captured the historic aspects of the faith community in Oakland over the years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And your church rank goes back to 1870, is that right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> Our church was actually established in 1922, so we’re 104 years in the West Oakland community. We have primarily served as the mecca church. Many churches have come out of our church.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But more importantly, when many of our ancestors migrated from the South to the North to work in the shipyards, naval supply, on the trains, and things of that nature, they all came to Mount Zion. And we housed veterans after the wars, so it has always been a community hub for the community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Cynthia, what’s the brief summary of how the Lighthouse Mosque came about?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> So the Lighthouse Mosque, we definitely didn’t start in 1922. We started in about 2007, and in 2013 we were actually able to purchase the church that we’re at now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And yeah, so we’re really the new people on the block. We’re really the new ones, because I grew up in West Oakland, South Berkeley, so I remember all of the Star Bethel and Mount Zion. Those are kind of the historical churches I remember in the East Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, I love Pastor Mike Wallace. We actually went to Los Angeles together one time. No, I’m saying—\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And so, yeah. Yeah, that’s great. And Jacqueline Mates-Muchin, tell us a little bit about Temple Sinai.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> So Temple Sinai was actually founded in 1875, so we’re almost 151 years old. And we had a couple of different locations, but our current sanctuary was finished the same year that Oakland City Hall was finished. So we really see ourselves as a part of the growth of Oakland over time, and have been a consistent presence here in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s great. So we’re going to get into a discussion between all these faith leaders about the things that they’re seeing in the community. And, of course, we also want to hear from our listeners.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Are you a member of a faith community in Oakland or your city? Do you seek comfort in those spaces, or have you moved away from it? Or do you consider yourself religious or spiritual but not religious? We want to hear your story. 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can email Forum at kqed.org. Friends on Bluesky, on Instagram, on Discord, we’re KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This morning, we’ve got Nicolò Sertorio, who’s founder, artist, and photographer at the Oakland Faith Project. We’ve got James Campbell. He’s a professor in United States history at Stanford, and we’ve got three faith leaders with us. We’ve got Rabbi Jacqueline Mates-Muchin, Sundiata Rashid, imam at Lighthouse Mosque, and Pastor Mike Wallace from Mount Zion Missionary Baptist Church.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned for more right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Well, welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. We’re here talking with faith leaders about the Oakland Faith Project. We’ve got Rabbi Jacqueline Mates-Muchin from Temple Sinai. We’ve got Sundiata Rashid from Lighthouse Mosque. We’ve got Mike Wallace from Mount Zion Missionary Baptist Church.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sundiata, let’s talk a little bit about how you got started on the path to becoming an imam at this mosque.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so, you know, I’m a Pisces. No, I’m just playing. No, so I actually, okay, yeah. So when I was younger, I was in the U.S. Marine Corps, and I was Muslim when I went in. And during the Gulf War, a lot of service people converted to Islam.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there weren’t a lot of people who knew about Islam. So because I already had been Muslim, I just kind of got pushed into this thing of teaching people how to pray, leading services, working with other people who were called lay leaders in the military. So they weren’t like the chaplain, but they might run services at a certain base or something like that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So then that kind of carried over. When I got out of the military, I kept on trying to teach classes and doing that for different masajid. And then in 2007, I ended up at Lighthouse Mosque, and Imam Zaid Shakir, who started the mosque, found out that I taught classes and he called me one time. I was so starstruck. He was like, “Oh, this is Imam Zaid Shakir,” and I was like, “Stop playing on my phone. Who’s this?” And he’s like, “No, it’s really Imam Zaid Shakir.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He started asking me to teach and get involved, and now, from 2008 until now, that’s just what I’ve been kind of doing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Um, Jacqueline, you’re the first Chinese American rabbi in the U.S., as I understand it. What does that distinction mean? How do you think it shaped your spiritual journey?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> I actually think it has given me a unique perspective of being able to understand multiple communities and see myself as belonging and grounded in multiple histories and heritages.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think that has actually been a really good experience when we look at Oakland and we see Oakland’s amazing diversity, and the approach that we try to have to be open and understanding of where everyone’s coming from. We recognize that we’re going to the same place. We’re all trying to make the world a better place, and we’re trying to do good here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think it’s been really helpful in trying to get a much, much broader picture of life and experience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Um, Pastor Mike, did you grow up in the church?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> Yes, I did. I grew up in a Christian family. I’m really grateful for my parents. My father served as a deacon in a church, and my mother was an evangelist, one of the first women evangelists in a local church. And so I grew up in a Christian home. I was saved and baptized at the age of 11, and I thank God for my journey.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>With respect to this, that’s on my life. I knew it early on in life, that I had a sacred calling on my life as a teenager. As I progressed through school and college, I pursued a legal profession. So I worked in the legal profession for a number of years and then transitioned over to finance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For a while, I served as associate minister at the New St. Paul Missionary Baptist Church in West Oakland, where I received acknowledgment of my calling. And then I served under Dr. C.J. Anderson at the St. John Missionary Baptist Church. He was a historic pastor in our community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Continuing to work in the finance industry for a number of years, I accepted my call bivocationally. I was associate minister at the local church, and I worked in finance. And I received the call to go to the historic Mount Zion Missionary Baptist Church. I retired from finance and went full-time into ministry. And now I’ve served at Mount Zion as senior pastor for the last 18 years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> What does a senior pastor do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> Well, it varies from church to church, but you basically oversee the whole operation in the ministry. You cast a vision, you empower the people to run with the vision, you teach, you preach, you lead, you serve, and the most important thing is that you serve the people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I am constantly trying to meet the needs of our congregation, as well as the needs of the greater community, because my calling is beyond the four walls of the church. And so, as a result, I try to empower our people to take the ministry from beyond the stained-glass windows to the community, to the heart of the people, and try to meet people right—\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Where they are. Sundiata, how do you take that on, like the kind of going beyond the walls of the mosque?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> You know, um, I’ve just always been kind of a people person myself, so I love to get out and talk to folks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I was telling Nicolò earlier that, really, the pandemic was kind of an opportunity, because when a lot of mosques were closed in Oakland, we actually started doing our services at a local park. That park is known in West Oakland. It’s Mr. Fab’s Park. And so people would see us there, and people who wanted to come to a service started coming to our park service.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so after the pandemic, we almost had a whole new congregation of all these new folks who found us, just because we kept operating. We kind of tried to keep things going, because I myself just don’t like to be by myself. So even in a pandemic, I was like, “I gotta get a microphone and talk to people.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s something about ministers and microphones. We just can’t leave them alone. It’s like—\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I understand. We might share this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> You know, Jacqueline, let’s talk a little bit about the people who are not affiliated with a particular faith institution, even if they consider themselves to be religious in some ways. You noted to the Oakland Faith Project that actually a small portion of Jewish residents in Oakland belong to a synagogue. Why do you think that is?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> You know, I think, and it was sort of mentioned by Dr. Campbell earlier as well, that there is a sense of spirituality that’s in the water in the Bay Area, especially in the East Bay. So I think that there are some folks who find that sense of spirituality and connection and community in different sorts of places.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Jewish community, or rather, a synagogue, has always been the center of Jewish life. So for some folks, they come around because they feel specifically religious, and for other folks, they’re looking for community or that shared sense of heritage and ethnicity that Judaism is, and so they’re looking to develop their sense of Jewish identity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, we have found actually in the last couple of years, with the uptick in antisemitism, that there are more people who are seeking out synagogues and seeking out community in that way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think the question of why aren’t there more is always a great question, but I’m really glad to see that there are folks who are, and I’m proud to know that we’re kind of a through line throughout the history here, so that if and when people want to connect, we are here for them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> One listener writes in to say, you know, Eddie writes, “My primary struggle with organized religion is the message that their approach is the right way to worship God. I don’t believe that God is so vain as to require that we worship them or worship in any specific way. I believe that’s one reason many people have shifted to spirituality over religion. You can choose how you want to appreciate God.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>James Campbell, this strikes me as quite a modern sensibility, right, that someone would see things in this way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Campbell:\u003c/strong> Look, I think this is absolutely right. And in some ways, the attitude you’ve just reflected or expressed in that quotation immediately harkens to the great cultural ruptures of the 1960s and early 1970s, when the Bay Area was kind of ground zero. And not just in the realm of organized religion, but in an extraordinary array of different registers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Young people and seekers of various kinds were not necessarily rejecting spirituality, not rejecting community, but rejecting what they regarded as the ossified forms in which that had come to be expressed. And I think the roots of an enormous cultural war that we are still fighting in some fashion today are embedded in that quotation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Nicolò, your project is a tiny bit different, even just as I think about its underlying philosophy, right? It’s not just to go away from all these institutions. It’s actually to go into as many of them as possible, which is kind of different.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio:\u003c/strong> So first of all, I just wanted to add something to the earlier conversation. I think the spiritual leaders may have been too modest to mention that a lot of these houses of worship play a very vital role in the city beyond the church walls, supporting the community, providing food, shelter, showers, safe housing in their parking lots overnight. And that is a very important role that we need to acknowledge about what the houses of worship are doing in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In terms of your question, I think it kind of links the points together in that, although I belong to that growing denomination, I, like everybody else, have this thirst for a higher self and belonging and community. And so, maybe consciously or unconsciously, there was a desire to understand and explore that world around me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the extreme fascination with this incredible diversity — one of the big parts that brought me to the project was, as you mentioned, during COVID, when everything was locked down and there was all this bad news about Oakland, I wanted to focus on something positive. And to me, having multiple denominations literally sometimes next door to each other, if you go on International Boulevard in Oakland, that’s something very unique. And that’s something very powerful that also reflects the ethnic and social diversity of the city.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Of Oakland. Sundiata, one of the things that I have wondered about is how having this war in Gaza, having a war in Iran, having these things going on around the world ends up reflecting back for you inside the mosque.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> You know, so I think a lot of those tragedies do build up attendance at the mosque. Because I think one of the things is that when people leave organized religion, that might be almost a sense of entitlement because they’re not going through things in life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, like, once they start — if you were even here and you were kind of comfortable, but you’re identifying with your relatives or even just Muslims who you feel an affinity for because of the same religion, and you see the things happening to them — you’ll still be looking for those signs of spiritual answers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so a lot of times, that’s what religious institutions provide. It’s like, we can answer some of the questions. And like the guy said, sometimes it might be dogmatic, like, “This is the right answer, and anything else is astray.” But I think that most people who encounter religion are just looking for an answer to some of the grief that they’re feeling.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And those institutions, like the mosque, especially during the genocide in Gaza and those kinds of things, were able to drive up attendance, get people coming out and organizing. So many programs at the mosque were centered around those kinds of things that were happening in Iran and things like that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Um, another listener, Ryan, and Rabbi Jacqueline, this one’s coming to you. Ryan writes, “I grew up in a secular Jewish household in Boise, Idaho. I later married a man who was raised observant in the South Bay, and I waded hesitantly but excitedly into a more Jewish life. In 2022, we sent our first child to Temple Sinai’s preschool program.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“But after the events of October 7, 2023, and the Israeli attacks on Gaza, both of us began feeling increasingly uncomfortable being associated with Jewish organizations that did not condemn those attacks. For the first time in my life, I feel ashamed to be Jewish. But even sadder for me is that this is also true for my husband. He used to take great comfort in his religious practice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think we’re at a generational turning point for Jewish Americans that will drive many of us further from the faith.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Obviously, this has been an incredibly difficult issue across American life, but specifically Jewish life. How have you been counseling people in your congregation?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> So I think there’s a wide range of ways to understand what is happening and different ways to talk about it. I will say that it’s kind of hard to hear “the genocide in Gaza,” which I wasn’t necessarily expecting in this particular conversation. But I will save that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think the role of the synagogue is to grapple with the word Israel, because the country is actually named after the people. So we call ourselves Israel, Yisrael, and it means those who wrestle with God.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so the point of being a part of a Jewish community is to be able to bring your concerns, bring your questions, bring your values, and bring your frustrations together so that we can have those kinds of conversations and figure out what it means for all of us. And it’s totally fine to disagree on certain kinds of things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think the problem that we’re seeing right now, not just in the Jewish community but in a much greater way, is that people are choosing sides and teams and not having those kinds of conversations, not trying to understand other people and grapple with the things that are happening in the world and the things happening in our lives.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I would actually argue that if you are looking for a place to be able to do that, it might not be one synagogue or one church or one mosque or the other, but it could be somewhere in that realm where you can find places to wrestle with the things that are difficult and be able to understand what it means for your life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Michael Wallace, how do you see your role in this sort of cross-faith collaboration? Do you do a lot of it? Do you not do a lot of it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> We engage a lot in collaboration across denominational lines, faith traditions, generations, as well as culture. It’s absolutely essential because we have to move from our silos to systems. And we realize that collectively we can have a greater impact, a more meaningful impact, in our communities and the people that we serve.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I just want to allude to something that you mentioned earlier: the Black church in our culture has always been on the front line of addressing inequalities in our society. We have always been on the front line of addressing disparities within our society. We’ve always been at the forefront of addressing injustice in our society.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, in that tradition, in that vein, it’s absolutely essential that we continue to address injustices anywhere among any people, regardless of their race, creed, or color.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, as a result of that, we do build collaborations. I work with a number of groups. One particular group is Impact Oakland Now, ION, and it’s a collective of six progressive pastors and churches that are basically addressing social, economic, educational, and spiritual needs within the community. So we do a lot of work collectively to have an impact for the most marginalized within our communities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Collaboration is absolutely essential. As he indicated earlier, we went to Los Angeles together to work in collaboration. And so I work a lot with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I served as the chairperson of Faith in Action East Bay, which consists of a lot of rabbis and Jewish synagogues. And so we find that working together, we can have much more of an impact on our society.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Sundiata, I was thinking about this. I mean, you’re the Muslim chaplain at USF, which I think of as a very Catholic university.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> Go down. How does that work? You know, every university is going to be diverse, but USF is rated as the most diverse campus in the United States, right here in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I took my daughter there when I first got the job, and I’ve been to different MSAs and worked with different Muslim Student Associations. She would always tag along, her and my son, and she was shocked at just how many people of color there were.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then I was like, “Let’s count the Black folks.” So when I was young and we lived in Berkeley, my dad used to play a game called “Let’s Count the Vovos,” because there were always a lot of Vovos in Berkeley. So we were like, let’s count, and we gave up counting when we got to about 100.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, it’s a small campus, but we got to about 110 Black people just walking through. Tonight — if you’re biracial or something, my daughter wasn’t counting that. She was like, “So these were, like, you know, 110.” They’re not saying biracial folks aren’t authentic, but there were no, no — so that’s me at USF.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s interesting. We’re talking about religious communities in Oakland, the future of religious traditions. We’re joined by a trio of faith leaders, as well as the people working on the Oakland Faith Project, including its founder, Nicolò Sertorio. We’ll be back with more right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. Alexis Madrigal here, joined by Nicolò Sertorio, who is founder, artist, and photographer of the Oakland Faith Project. He’s got his house of worship story, and James Campbell is also Edgar E. Robinson Professor in United States History at Stanford. We’ve got Rabbi Jacqueline Mates-Muchin, who is senior rabbi at Temple Sinai. We’ve got Sundiata Rashid, imam at Lighthouse Mosque and Muslim chaplain at the University of San Francisco, and we’ve got Pastor Michael Wallace of Mount Zion Missionary Baptist Church.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This project began, Nicolò, with the photographs that you were taking, and you actually now have them up in a show at 1500 Broadway, is that right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio:\u003c/strong> Yes. The project exploded in some ways. So I did start with the houses of worship, and then for the second part I partnered with my good friend and colleague, and also a good photographer, J. Michael Tucker, in taking the portraits. And furthermore, we decided to start recording their oral histories.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Later, after doing a solo show at Oakland City Hall, I was offered the opportunity to exhibit in this empty commercial space at 1500 Broadway. It’s a very large, over 2,000-square-foot space that we now have open Monday to Friday.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it’s been really interesting to see the constant flow of people and the conversations that I have encouraged just by people listening to spiritual leaders and discovering new sides of them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And also, I think it’s important that we don’t move away from difficult conversations, but rather confront them full-on. To me, that is actually one of the biggest measures of a successful art project: if people talk about it, good or bad.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. We’ve got a few different folks who have been grappling with these various topics. Some folks with other religious beliefs. One listener writes, “My friends and I believe that nature is my church.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Peggy writes in to say, “I belong to the Buddhist Church of Oakland. The Buddhist teachings make sense to me and are based on gratitude and compassion for all living beings. I also find great community in our church. We have our annual Spring Bazaar and our Obon Festival in early August, and everyone is welcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Our church was founded in 1901 and survived the mass incarceration of Japanese and Japanese Americans during World War II. This year, we are celebrating our 125th anniversary.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, one of the things that strikes me, Pastor Michael Wallace, out of this is just that there’s something to the fact that these institutions have been around for so long. Maybe a hundred years old, 120 years old, whatever it is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> No, that’s true, and that just really is a tribute to them surviving through some more difficult times. If you’ve been around a church or a facility or a house of faith that’s been around for over a hundred years, that means they have seen the pendulum swing from one side to the other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They have lived through the dark days of the Depression. They have lived through the turbulent times of the ’60s. They have lived through the free speech movements of the ’70s and so forth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, as a result, I think it’s a testament to that particular institution or that place of faith that they have been able to weather many storms. But you don’t just weather storms. In order to survive that long, you have to be doing something positive, having a meaningful impact, meeting the needs of the people. And so I think that’s a true testament to their survival.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Especially at a time when there’s so much change in the Bay Area and so much change in Oakland over the last even just 20 years, let alone 120 years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> Oh, absolutely. I mean, just say post-pandemic. Let’s just be in the last five years. It has been really different because, prior to the pandemic, we had a lot of people attending services. During the pandemic, people were not allowed to gather. And then post-pandemic, there was a large falling away.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But now we have this political and social climate that we’re currently existing in that, to me, has more people turning back to places of faith, to their faith, in order to find how to navigate through the challenging and difficult days that we’re facing right now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Let’s bring in a couple of callers here. Let’s go to Art in West Sacramento. Welcome, Art.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Art:\u003c/strong> Hi.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Hi. Hello? Yep, we can hear you. Go ahead.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Art:\u003c/strong> Okay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We could hear you, at least, that is to say. Sorry about that, Art. We’ll try and come back to you. I don’t know what’s going on with the phones this morning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Let’s talk a little bit about one major topic. And maybe, Rabbi Jacqueline, I’ll come to you on this. One of the things that I think has been — I don’t want to put a value judgment on it — but many people have gone to AI chatbots, kind of asking for life advice, even borderline spiritual advice, as people try to figure out what they want and find meaning in life. How do you approach something like that and kind of bring people towards other people?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> I think it’s rough, just because everybody needs to find an outlet that makes the most sense for them. I think the best thing that we can do is to ensure a thriving community and make people aware that we are here if they want to connect.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, I think it is hard to hear sometimes folks say that they don’t go to religious institutions because they think that we’re going to be dogmatic. But you actually don’t know what’s happening unless you give it a try.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So it is a worry in our world now that folks are tending to be a little bit more isolated and not necessarily wanting to make themselves vulnerable, which can happen if you are a part of a community. Then you become a part of the community in all sorts of ways.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But my hope is just that if you’re curious, if you have any desire to see what it is, or even if you’re thinking that we are saying one thing, you know, come in and see if it’s true. And hopefully you’ll be able to find a community that’s meaningful. And if it isn’t meaningful, then that’s okay, too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Jim, one of the things that I think is interesting about some of the research around these things is that our churches have gotten more sorted politically. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Campbell:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, I also want to point out one thing, since you had one of the people who wrote in about the Buddhist Church of Oakland. That group not only survived the experience of Japanese American incarceration during the Second World War, they also survived the interstate road system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s one of the churches that, under eminent domain, was slated for destruction, and the people in it actually sawed it in half, put it on trucks, and moved it, preserving it. So there’s lots of vicissitudes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One of the messages that came out of doing this research for me about religious life in Oakland was just its extraordinary resiliency. But, in any event, on the question you asked, if you go back not very long ago, maybe even to the turn of the century—\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That is to say, the year 2000.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Campbell:\u003c/strong> Correct. The people sitting in the pews next to you were just as likely to be Democrats as they were likely to be Republicans. And that is manifestly not the case now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, the process of people moving away from traditional religions and denominations is across the board. It’s happening among evangelicals, mainstream Protestants, Catholics, and so forth, but it does correlate with political affiliation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And one of the things that, to me, is most alarming as someone who grew up in a Christian tradition is the way in which that tradition in our country today is increasingly being appropriated or donned as a mantle by certain kinds of political actors who, I think, make a mockery of the teachings of the person they profess to worship.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I don’t mean to be overly political about this, but I think that’s happened. I think a very large part of the movement away from orthodox religion in recent years — there’s been a dramatic, phenomenal outflow of people, measured in millions nationally, in the wake of the election of 2016, for example.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so that’s clearly one of the things that’s happening now, and I think it’s really unhealthy for our country. You know, part of what the United States always had was a very robust civic life, not just churches, but Rotary clubs and bowling leagues, and the list goes on and on, including Little Leagues, where you routinely interacted with people who voted for different political parties from you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That tradition is eroding in our society, and I think that’s very threatening for our democracy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Let’s see if we can get Art in West Sacramento back here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Art:\u003c/strong> Hey, Art, sorry about that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Hey, no worries.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Art:\u003c/strong> I’m 11th in a family of 15. I was a former Catholic, Seventh-day Adventist, Pentecostal. I was going on the Pentecostal track. I attended the University of California, Davis. I decided that I could not become a Pentecostal minister because they wanted me to preach against my sister being a lesbian. And I said, “She’s not going to hell. It’s not possible. I cannot preach that way.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it turns out the guy that was leading me was actually using me as a young person to paint homes and making money off of me, and just was running a puppy mill later on in life. This guy was being sued by the city that I grew up in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It just is really… And then let’s add to that things like Tammy Faye, Tammy’s magic stories that come out of… And it’s no wonder, in my mind, why we have the kind of leadership we have in the country, in one way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The second part is that, of course, people are going to turn away from things that they can’t have trust in. And to rebuild that trust doesn’t necessarily come down to belief in God or some supernatural power, because people have that. What they don’t believe in is the people who are mediating the process. And I’ll leave it at that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, thank you. Great, great comment. I’m glad you hung with us there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, yeah, Pastor Michael, I think this is, you know, growing up in an era of televangelists myself, and just seeing them on and being like, “Boy, what is this? What does this have to do with the Bible or anything?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> Well, yeah. I mean, without question, the swell of the televangelists over the years, particularly during that era, was enormous because they were on the airwaves 24/7. You could not miss it. And as a result, those individuals became bigger than life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so what you have is a personality-driven church. And anytime you have a personality-driven church, that means it’s centered around the human being that’s, quote-unquote, the personality of that church. And so when that personality is defective or false, then that whole movement shifts to a decline.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so that’s what we’ve seen with some of the great movements, from Jimmy Swaggart to Jim Bakker to many others who were personality-driven.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so what we have to do, and I think our society is demanding this, is shift from personality-driven to either Christ-centered or centered on whomever your higher authority is. But it has to be centered on that person and not the human individual.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Sundiata?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> I mean, I think it’s fine for people. I mean, for me, it’s not one size fits all. So, like, there are probably many Muslims who don’t go to the mosque, but they’re still Muslim, you know what I’m saying? And then there are many Muslims who do go to the mosque.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There might be, you know, like in Oakland, we might have 10 or 11 masajid, or mosques. For me, if Lighthouse isn’t your thing and you want to go to, you know, we always name our mosques after streets, 31st Street or 47th or whatever, I’m always fine with that. I’m like, that’s cool, just do you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, like, for somebody who might have had a tragic experience and got turned away from religion, I’m not going to try to recruit them or try to get them back. They should just do what they’re comfortable with, you know what I’m saying?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, yeah. Let’s bring in Gail in Oakland with a comment here. Welcome, Gail.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gail:\u003c/strong> Kate, thanks, Alexis. Nice to talk to you. I knew you in my former iteration as an Oakland restaurant owner.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I wanted to let listeners know or remind them about the Oakland Interfaith Gospel Choir. I’m a member of the Oakland Interfaith Community Choir, which is one of the sister choirs under the umbrella of OIGC. And OIGC has been around for 41 years, and I’ve been singing with them and recently became a board member because I love it so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s a huge joy in my life, and I think a beautiful reflection of the 23 religions represented in our choir, singing together, learning a lot about Black history, really inspiring joy in our audiences and our performances, and just an incredible reflection of the diversity of Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> It’s kind of like the sonic version of your project, Nicolò.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I would like to take the opportunity to invite you to come and sing at 1500 Broadway.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> Oh, yeah, that’s a good idea, actually. The Oakland Interfaith Choir is absolutely amazing. Minister Terrence Kelly, who has served as the leader of that, they do a tremendous job. It’s a collective collaboration of many faith traditions coming together and unified, pulling in the same direction. And they are really amazing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Gail, the people want to hear you sing, though.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gail:\u003c/strong> That’s not going to happen. It’s totally fine, but I’m going to come to our conference.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I had to try. I had to try. Producer Grace made me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gail:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you had to try. Good try, good try.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> All right, thank you, Gail. Thank you so much. Lots of comments here from listeners who’ve just found their place, which is kind of nice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Rishi on the Discord writes, “I’m so glad to have found my local UCC congregational church of Sunnyvale. Progressive but not zealous, just kind, sensible people. I love my UCC church for the solstice celebration. I also try to practice nonsectarian meditation, a way of life taught by the Buddha. And I volunteered at a local food distribution organization founded by a group of like-minded Indians. As my Hindu saints told me, helping others is doing God’s work.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So many. Here’s another comment. Gina writes, “I grew up attending a couple of different Oakland synagogues, but as a young person, I couldn’t see what relevance most of these ancient Jewish texts and rules could have to my life. And I couldn’t believe in the God I saw represented there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I saw the problems religious conflict had caused throughout history and how religion was used as a reason to cast out certain types of people, and I wanted none of it. But once I had a kid, I decided to keep an open mind and seek out a different approach to bringing Judaism into my life, into my family.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I found an organization called Jewish Gateways, a community based in Albany that doesn’t have its own building but offers a variety of educational programs for families and adults that have changed my perspective on Judaism and helped me see its relevance to living an ethical and meaningful life in community.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Rabbi Jacqueline, how often do you see someone come back to the temple because they want their family to have some of this shared basis of faith?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> I actually think it’s very common that folks, once they have children and want to try to help create a lens and help their kids form their identity, it’s very common for folks to come back and want to put their kids into a religious school and Hebrew school, and to have them have some sense of what it means to be a part of the Jewish community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I’d say it’s actually very common, and I appreciate it. I think that that’s a part of the stage of life that makes a lot of sense, that you’re developing a sense of your home and your household, with traditions and roots. And so it’s very welcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Last one. Alison writes, “I found the Oakland Unitarian Church along with my partner fairly recently. We needed a faith community that was engaged in resistance to the cruelty of our current national politics. It has been wonderful to be engaged with other seekers who have made the commitment to not accept our present circumstances, but rather to fight for justice for all marginalized people. It is a spiritual quest and a way to feel connected to what is good.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We have been talking about religious communities in Oakland and the future of religious traditions. You can go take a look at the Oakland Faith Project’s exhibition at 1500 Broadway.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ve been joined by its founder, Nicolò Sertorio. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio:\u003c/strong> All right. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And Jim Campbell, Edgar E. Robinson Professor in United States History at Stanford. Thank you. Might have lost him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Rabbi Jacqueline Mates-Muchin at Temple Sinai, thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Sundiata Rashid from Lighthouse Mosque, thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And Michael Wallace, pastor at Mount Zion Missionary Baptist Church in West Oakland. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much to all of our callers and listeners. Sorry about those problems on the phones. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned for another hour of \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> ahead with Mina.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Announcer:\u003c/strong> Funds for the production of \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> are provided by the Jenerosity Family Fund and the members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Oakland is home to dozens of houses of worship, and the “Oakland Faith Project,” aims to document these spaces and their leaders at a time when many are turning away from religion. Photographer and documentarian Nicolò Sertorio’s website includes stark black and white photography and interviews with religious leaders who represent various walks of life, identity and beliefs. We’ll talk with Sertorio, project partners and some of Oakland’s religious leaders about “de-churching” in the Bay Area and the future of organized religion. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Like many people, Nicolò Sertorio had his life turned upside down by COVID. He was a photographer, and suddenly his normal business was gone. Italian by birth and raised by two science professors, he’d been on his own spiritual path and had been struck by the pluralism of the religious scene in his adoptive home of Oakland. So when the pandemic started, he set out on a personal quest to photograph all of the city’s churches, mosques, synagogues, and other places of worship. Four hundred and sixty-six locations later, the Oakland Faith Project has expanded to include portraits of faith leaders and fascinating audio of them talking about their views and work in the community.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Like many people, Nicolò Sertorio had his life turned upside down by COVID. He was a photographer, and suddenly his normal business was gone. Italian by birth and raised by two science professors, he’d been on his own spiritual path and had been struck by the pluralism of the religious scene in his adoptive home of Oakland. So when the pandemic started, he set out on a personal quest to photograph all of the city’s churches, mosques, synagogues, and other places of worship. Four hundred and sixty-six locations later, the Oakland Faith Project has expanded to include portraits of faith leaders and fascinating audio of them talking about their views and work in the community.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So this hour, we’re going to be joined by some faith leaders, as well as the Oakland Faith Project folks. We’re joined first by Nicolò himself. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio:\u003c/strong> Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re also joined by James Campbell, Edgar E. Robinson Professor in United States History at Stanford, a partner and, I guess, the house historian at the Oakland Faith Project. Welcome, Jim.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Nicolò, when COVID hit, you started this project. What do you think you were getting from this work of photographing these houses of worship?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio:\u003c/strong> Well, taking a brief step back, like you mentioned, and you can probably derive from my accent, I grew up in Italy. And so I was used to having pretty much just one church in each town, the Roman Catholic church. And they typically all kind of look the same. They’re all made of stone in the shape of a cross.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So one of the first things that really struck me when I came, moved to the U.S. was the number and diversity of houses of worship, particularly in Oakland, and how free and diverse they are. At the same time, I kept noticing how many of them were shutting down, being torn down, or reconverted into private apartments. And for years, I was wondering why nobody was recording this cultural phenomenon happening right around us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so, like you mentioned, when COVID hit and all of a sudden all my businesses were shut down within hours, I realized this was something I was the one who had to do, and this was the perfect time. Honestly, at the time, I didn’t know what I was getting into.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But do you consider yourself more or less religious since you started working on this?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio:\u003c/strong> Oh, since I started? Yeah. Um, interesting question. I still consider myself spiritual but not religious, but I was positively impressed by the people that I met during this project. And so I confess I might have entered with a little bit of a bias from my Italian heritage, and instead I found people who are truly open-minded and liberal, and many have become friends.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio:\u003c/strong> Oh, since I started? Yeah. Um, interesting question. I still consider myself spiritual but not religious, but I was positively impressed by the people that I met during this project. And so I confess I might have entered with a little bit of a bias from my Italian heritage, and instead I found people who are truly open-minded and liberal, and many have become friends.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s cool. Jim, give us some of the sociological context here. I mean, we know in Europe, obviously, religious affiliation started declining a long time ago. And the U.S. didn’t really follow that trend at first, but now has.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s cool. Jim, give us some of the sociological context here. I mean, we know in Europe, obviously, religious affiliation started declining a long time ago. And the U.S. didn’t really follow that trend at first, but now has.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Campbell:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think the United States is an outlier in this. There’s just no question. You know, when we started getting a General Social Survey in the 1970s, American respondents were asked — I don’t think it was a very finely grained survey. It’s given every two years. You had five categories. You could identify yourself as Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, another world religion, or none of the above, religiously unaffiliated.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Campbell:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think the United States is an outlier in this. There’s just no question. You know, when we started getting a General Social Survey in the 1970s, American respondents were asked — I don’t think it was a very finely grained survey. It’s given every two years. You had five categories. You could identify yourself as Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, another world religion, or none of the above, religiously unaffiliated.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When that survey started, about 5% of Americans identified themselves as religiously unaffiliated. By the 1990s, believe it or not, that figure had only gone up to about 7%. Today, the General Social Survey has that figure over 30%. Some surveys put it significantly higher, particularly among younger people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When that survey started, about 5% of Americans identified themselves as religiously unaffiliated. By the 1990s, believe it or not, that figure had only gone up to about 7%. Today, the General Social Survey has that figure over 30%. Some surveys put it significantly higher, particularly among younger people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So the general phenomenon does look like what happened in Europe, a kind of broad process of de-churching, but it’s happening considerably later in this country.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So the general phenomenon does look like what happened in Europe, a kind of broad process of de-churching, but it’s happening considerably later in this country.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Do you think it’s just de-churching, or is it secularization? Are there ways of thinking about splitting out people who are spiritual but not religious?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Do you think it’s just de-churching, or is it secularization? Are there ways of thinking about splitting out people who are spiritual but not religious?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Campbell:\u003c/strong> That’s a great question. When Nicolò just said, “Well, I consider myself spiritual but not religious,” that’s probably the largest church, if you will, in the United States in some fashion.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Campbell:\u003c/strong> That’s a great question. When Nicolò just said, “Well, I consider myself spiritual but not religious,” that’s probably the largest church, if you will, in the United States in some fashion.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So there’s a debate among scholars about this, whether what we’re seeing represents a process of secularization per se, or more a shift in the meaning of spirituality or in the nature of religious experience. There’s a scholar, Robert, I think at Princeton, who writes about this, and a distinction he makes is a shift between what he calls a spirituality of dwelling, which is, you know, you attend the same church every week that your parents attended, and so forth, to a spirituality of seeking.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So there’s a debate among scholars about this, whether what we’re seeing represents a process of secularization per se, or more a shift in the meaning of spirituality or in the nature of religious experience. There’s a scholar, Robert, I think at Princeton, who writes about this, and a distinction he makes is a shift between what he calls a spirituality of dwelling, which is, you know, you attend the same church every week that your parents attended, and so forth, to a spirituality of seeking.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think that’s a really thought-provoking distinction. For me, a lot of Americans feel free now to fashion spiritual creeds of their own from eclectic materials, in ways that might look less orthodox on the surface. But if you scratch at it and start asking them about specific religious beliefs — do they believe in an afterlife? Do they believe in the presence of angels? — you find actually surprisingly orthodox beliefs even among many people who profess to be religiously unaffiliated.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think that’s a really thought-provoking distinction. For me, a lot of Americans feel free now to fashion spiritual creeds of their own from eclectic materials, in ways that might look less orthodox on the surface. But if you scratch at it and start asking them about specific religious beliefs — do they believe in an afterlife? Do they believe in the presence of angels? — you find actually surprisingly orthodox beliefs even among many people who profess to be religiously unaffiliated.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Is there anything specific about our history of religion here in the Bay Area, or in Oakland even more specifically, that’s worth dwelling on?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Is there anything specific about our history of religion here in the Bay Area, or in Oakland even more specifically, that’s worth dwelling on?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Campbell:\u003c/strong> Well, you know, there certainly is a stereotype in the rest of the country that this area is full of godless heathens.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Campbell:\u003c/strong> Well, you know, there certainly is a stereotype in the rest of the country that this area is full of godless heathens.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Exactly.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Exactly.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Campbell:\u003c/strong> That we’re this kind of godless, forlorn people. I mean, I think the most significant factor here, which really defines the entire Bay Area and Oakland specifically, is that it’s a city of immigrants, and it always has been.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Campbell:\u003c/strong> That we’re this kind of godless, forlorn people. I mean, I think the most significant factor here, which really defines the entire Bay Area and Oakland specifically, is that it’s a city of immigrants, and it always has been.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Churches and mosques and synagogues and other houses of worship have played a critical role in enabling immigrant communities to find their feet in a new setting, and also to retain some connection to ways of being, cultural practices, linguistic practices, even foodways, of the nations that they have left behind.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Churches and mosques and synagogues and other houses of worship have played a critical role in enabling immigrant communities to find their feet in a new setting, and also to retain some connection to ways of being, cultural practices, linguistic practices, even foodways, of the nations that they have left behind.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And that is certainly what happened in the late 19th and early 20th centuries as Italians and Irish arrived. There were seven different Lutheran churches here in the early 20th century for various Scandinavian migrants. And now you would see the same thing with immigrants from Tonga, Ethiopia, or Eritrea.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And that is certainly what happened in the late 19th and early 20th centuries as Italians and Irish arrived. There were seven different Lutheran churches here in the early 20th century for various Scandinavian migrants. And now you would see the same thing with immigrants from Tonga, Ethiopia, or Eritrea.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So in that sense, there’s a kind of persistent through line. It’s just different immigrant groups, and the specifics of their religious practices might look different.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So in that sense, there’s a kind of persistent through line. It’s just different immigrant groups, and the specifics of their religious practices might look different.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Interesting. Nicolò, as you worked on this project, you had a vision for what you wanted to ask these faith leaders about, right? You didn’t want just a general conversation. You had some specific things you asked them. What did you want to know from these faith leaders?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Interesting. Nicolò, as you worked on this project, you had a vision for what you wanted to ask these faith leaders about, right? You didn’t want just a general conversation. You had some specific things you asked them. What did you want to know from these faith leaders?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio:\u003c/strong> So I wanted to scratch a little bit under the surface. I wanted to talk to them about the issues that are happening around Oakland, and some of the issues that, at least in my upbringing, had pushed people away from traditional churchgoing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio:\u003c/strong> So I wanted to scratch a little bit under the surface. I wanted to talk to them about the issues that are happening around Oakland, and some of the issues that, at least in my upbringing, had pushed people away from traditional churchgoing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I’ve asked them about same-sex marriage. I’ve asked them about the drug epidemic, about the role of their church vis-à-vis politics. And that’s how I started to be so positively surprised by the people I was talking to.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I’ve asked them about same-sex marriage. I’ve asked them about the drug epidemic, about the role of their church vis-à-vis politics. And that’s how I started to be so positively surprised by the people I was talking to.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Great. Well, let’s bring in a few of these faith leaders that we’ve got here. We’ve got Jacqueline Mates-Muchin, who’s senior rabbi at Temple Sinai. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Great. Well, let’s bring in a few of these faith leaders that we’ve got here. We’ve got Jacqueline Mates-Muchin, who’s senior rabbi at Temple Sinai. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ve got Sundiata Rashid, who’s an imam at Lighthouse Mosque and also the Muslim chaplain at the University of San Francisco. Welcome!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ve got Sundiata Rashid, who’s an imam at Lighthouse Mosque and also the Muslim chaplain at the University of San Francisco. Welcome!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> Thank you!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> Thank you!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And we’ve got Michael Wallace, pastor at Mount Zion Missionary Baptist Church. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And we’ve got Michael Wallace, pastor at Mount Zion Missionary Baptist Church. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> We’re having a s—\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> We’re having a s—\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, thanks so much for coming in, everyone. What was it like, Michael Wallace, to have Nicolò come to you and say, “Hey, I want to photograph the church. I want to talk to you about things”?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, thanks so much for coming in, everyone. What was it like, Michael Wallace, to have Nicolò come to you and say, “Hey, I want to photograph the church. I want to talk to you about things”?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> When he shared his vision that he wanted to highlight the faith community and Oakland’s legacy as a faith mecca for many different faiths, I was extremely excited and definitely lent all my support behind the project.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> When he shared his vision that he wanted to highlight the faith community and Oakland’s legacy as a faith mecca for many different faiths, I was extremely excited and definitely lent all my support behind the project.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I thought that we have such a rich legacy in faith and in the city of Oakland, and so I wanted to be a part of that and make sure we captured the historic aspects of the faith community in Oakland over the years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I thought that we have such a rich legacy in faith and in the city of Oakland, and so I wanted to be a part of that and make sure we captured the historic aspects of the faith community in Oakland over the years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And your church rank goes back to 1870, is that right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And your church rank goes back to 1870, is that right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> Our church was actually established in 1922, so we’re 104 years in the West Oakland community. We have primarily served as the mecca church. Many churches have come out of our church.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> Our church was actually established in 1922, so we’re 104 years in the West Oakland community. We have primarily served as the mecca church. Many churches have come out of our church.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But more importantly, when many of our ancestors migrated from the South to the North to work in the shipyards, naval supply, on the trains, and things of that nature, they all came to Mount Zion. And we housed veterans after the wars, so it has always been a community hub for the community.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But more importantly, when many of our ancestors migrated from the South to the North to work in the shipyards, naval supply, on the trains, and things of that nature, they all came to Mount Zion. And we housed veterans after the wars, so it has always been a community hub for the community.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Cynthia, what’s the brief summary of how the Lighthouse Mosque came about?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Cynthia, what’s the brief summary of how the Lighthouse Mosque came about?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> So the Lighthouse Mosque, we definitely didn’t start in 1922. We started in about 2007, and in 2013 we were actually able to purchase the church that we’re at now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> So the Lighthouse Mosque, we definitely didn’t start in 1922. We started in about 2007, and in 2013 we were actually able to purchase the church that we’re at now.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And yeah, so we’re really the new people on the block. We’re really the new ones, because I grew up in West Oakland, South Berkeley, so I remember all of the Star Bethel and Mount Zion. Those are kind of the historical churches I remember in the East Bay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And yeah, so we’re really the new people on the block. We’re really the new ones, because I grew up in West Oakland, South Berkeley, so I remember all of the Star Bethel and Mount Zion. Those are kind of the historical churches I remember in the East Bay.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, I love Pastor Mike Wallace. We actually went to Los Angeles together one time. No, I’m saying—\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, I love Pastor Mike Wallace. We actually went to Los Angeles together one time. No, I’m saying—\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And so, yeah. Yeah, that’s great. And Jacqueline Mates-Muchin, tell us a little bit about Temple Sinai.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And so, yeah. Yeah, that’s great. And Jacqueline Mates-Muchin, tell us a little bit about Temple Sinai.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> So Temple Sinai was actually founded in 1875, so we’re almost 151 years old. And we had a couple of different locations, but our current sanctuary was finished the same year that Oakland City Hall was finished. So we really see ourselves as a part of the growth of Oakland over time, and have been a consistent presence here in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> So Temple Sinai was actually founded in 1875, so we’re almost 151 years old. And we had a couple of different locations, but our current sanctuary was finished the same year that Oakland City Hall was finished. So we really see ourselves as a part of the growth of Oakland over time, and have been a consistent presence here in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s great. So we’re going to get into a discussion between all these faith leaders about the things that they’re seeing in the community. And, of course, we also want to hear from our listeners.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s great. So we’re going to get into a discussion between all these faith leaders about the things that they’re seeing in the community. And, of course, we also want to hear from our listeners.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Are you a member of a faith community in Oakland or your city? Do you seek comfort in those spaces, or have you moved away from it? Or do you consider yourself religious or spiritual but not religious? We want to hear your story. 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can email Forum at kqed.org. Friends on Bluesky, on Instagram, on Discord, we’re KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Are you a member of a faith community in Oakland or your city? Do you seek comfort in those spaces, or have you moved away from it? Or do you consider yourself religious or spiritual but not religious? We want to hear your story. 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can email Forum at kqed.org. Friends on Bluesky, on Instagram, on Discord, we’re KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This morning, we’ve got Nicolò Sertorio, who’s founder, artist, and photographer at the Oakland Faith Project. We’ve got James Campbell. He’s a professor in United States history at Stanford, and we’ve got three faith leaders with us. We’ve got Rabbi Jacqueline Mates-Muchin, Sundiata Rashid, imam at Lighthouse Mosque, and Pastor Mike Wallace from Mount Zion Missionary Baptist Church.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This morning, we’ve got Nicolò Sertorio, who’s founder, artist, and photographer at the Oakland Faith Project. We’ve got James Campbell. He’s a professor in United States history at Stanford, and we’ve got three faith leaders with us. We’ve got Rabbi Jacqueline Mates-Muchin, Sundiata Rashid, imam at Lighthouse Mosque, and Pastor Mike Wallace from Mount Zion Missionary Baptist Church.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned for more right after the break.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Well, welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. We’re here talking with faith leaders about the Oakland Faith Project. We’ve got Rabbi Jacqueline Mates-Muchin from Temple Sinai. We’ve got Sundiata Rashid from Lighthouse Mosque. We’ve got Mike Wallace from Mount Zion Missionary Baptist Church.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Well, welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. We’re here talking with faith leaders about the Oakland Faith Project. We’ve got Rabbi Jacqueline Mates-Muchin from Temple Sinai. We’ve got Sundiata Rashid from Lighthouse Mosque. We’ve got Mike Wallace from Mount Zion Missionary Baptist Church.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Sundiata, let’s talk a little bit about how you got started on the path to becoming an imam at this mosque.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Sundiata, let’s talk a little bit about how you got started on the path to becoming an imam at this mosque.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so, you know, I’m a Pisces. No, I’m just playing. No, so I actually, okay, yeah. So when I was younger, I was in the U.S. Marine Corps, and I was Muslim when I went in. And during the Gulf War, a lot of service people converted to Islam.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so, you know, I’m a Pisces. No, I’m just playing. No, so I actually, okay, yeah. So when I was younger, I was in the U.S. Marine Corps, and I was Muslim when I went in. And during the Gulf War, a lot of service people converted to Islam.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But there weren’t a lot of people who knew about Islam. So because I already had been Muslim, I just kind of got pushed into this thing of teaching people how to pray, leading services, working with other people who were called lay leaders in the military. So they weren’t like the chaplain, but they might run services at a certain base or something like that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But there weren’t a lot of people who knew about Islam. So because I already had been Muslim, I just kind of got pushed into this thing of teaching people how to pray, leading services, working with other people who were called lay leaders in the military. So they weren’t like the chaplain, but they might run services at a certain base or something like that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So then that kind of carried over. When I got out of the military, I kept on trying to teach classes and doing that for different masajid. And then in 2007, I ended up at Lighthouse Mosque, and Imam Zaid Shakir, who started the mosque, found out that I taught classes and he called me one time. I was so starstruck. He was like, “Oh, this is Imam Zaid Shakir,” and I was like, “Stop playing on my phone. Who’s this?” And he’s like, “No, it’s really Imam Zaid Shakir.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So then that kind of carried over. When I got out of the military, I kept on trying to teach classes and doing that for different masajid. And then in 2007, I ended up at Lighthouse Mosque, and Imam Zaid Shakir, who started the mosque, found out that I taught classes and he called me one time. I was so starstruck. He was like, “Oh, this is Imam Zaid Shakir,” and I was like, “Stop playing on my phone. Who’s this?” And he’s like, “No, it’s really Imam Zaid Shakir.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He started asking me to teach and get involved, and now, from 2008 until now, that’s just what I’ve been kind of doing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>He started asking me to teach and get involved, and now, from 2008 until now, that’s just what I’ve been kind of doing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Um, Jacqueline, you’re the first Chinese American rabbi in the U.S., as I understand it. What does that distinction mean? How do you think it shaped your spiritual journey?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Um, Jacqueline, you’re the first Chinese American rabbi in the U.S., as I understand it. What does that distinction mean? How do you think it shaped your spiritual journey?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> I actually think it has given me a unique perspective of being able to understand multiple communities and see myself as belonging and grounded in multiple histories and heritages.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> I actually think it has given me a unique perspective of being able to understand multiple communities and see myself as belonging and grounded in multiple histories and heritages.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think that has actually been a really good experience when we look at Oakland and we see Oakland’s amazing diversity, and the approach that we try to have to be open and understanding of where everyone’s coming from. We recognize that we’re going to the same place. We’re all trying to make the world a better place, and we’re trying to do good here.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think that has actually been a really good experience when we look at Oakland and we see Oakland’s amazing diversity, and the approach that we try to have to be open and understanding of where everyone’s coming from. We recognize that we’re going to the same place. We’re all trying to make the world a better place, and we’re trying to do good here.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I think it’s been really helpful in trying to get a much, much broader picture of life and experience.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I think it’s been really helpful in trying to get a much, much broader picture of life and experience.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Um, Pastor Mike, did you grow up in the church?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Um, Pastor Mike, did you grow up in the church?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> Yes, I did. I grew up in a Christian family. I’m really grateful for my parents. My father served as a deacon in a church, and my mother was an evangelist, one of the first women evangelists in a local church. And so I grew up in a Christian home. I was saved and baptized at the age of 11, and I thank God for my journey.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> Yes, I did. I grew up in a Christian family. I’m really grateful for my parents. My father served as a deacon in a church, and my mother was an evangelist, one of the first women evangelists in a local church. And so I grew up in a Christian home. I was saved and baptized at the age of 11, and I thank God for my journey.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>With respect to this, that’s on my life. I knew it early on in life, that I had a sacred calling on my life as a teenager. As I progressed through school and college, I pursued a legal profession. So I worked in the legal profession for a number of years and then transitioned over to finance.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>With respect to this, that’s on my life. I knew it early on in life, that I had a sacred calling on my life as a teenager. As I progressed through school and college, I pursued a legal profession. So I worked in the legal profession for a number of years and then transitioned over to finance.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For a while, I served as associate minister at the New St. Paul Missionary Baptist Church in West Oakland, where I received acknowledgment of my calling. And then I served under Dr. C.J. Anderson at the St. John Missionary Baptist Church. He was a historic pastor in our community.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For a while, I served as associate minister at the New St. Paul Missionary Baptist Church in West Oakland, where I received acknowledgment of my calling. And then I served under Dr. C.J. Anderson at the St. John Missionary Baptist Church. He was a historic pastor in our community.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Continuing to work in the finance industry for a number of years, I accepted my call bivocationally. I was associate minister at the local church, and I worked in finance. And I received the call to go to the historic Mount Zion Missionary Baptist Church. I retired from finance and went full-time into ministry. And now I’ve served at Mount Zion as senior pastor for the last 18 years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Continuing to work in the finance industry for a number of years, I accepted my call bivocationally. I was associate minister at the local church, and I worked in finance. And I received the call to go to the historic Mount Zion Missionary Baptist Church. I retired from finance and went full-time into ministry. And now I’ve served at Mount Zion as senior pastor for the last 18 years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> What does a senior pastor do?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> What does a senior pastor do?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> Well, it varies from church to church, but you basically oversee the whole operation in the ministry. You cast a vision, you empower the people to run with the vision, you teach, you preach, you lead, you serve, and the most important thing is that you serve the people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> Well, it varies from church to church, but you basically oversee the whole operation in the ministry. You cast a vision, you empower the people to run with the vision, you teach, you preach, you lead, you serve, and the most important thing is that you serve the people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I am constantly trying to meet the needs of our congregation, as well as the needs of the greater community, because my calling is beyond the four walls of the church. And so, as a result, I try to empower our people to take the ministry from beyond the stained-glass windows to the community, to the heart of the people, and try to meet people right—\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I am constantly trying to meet the needs of our congregation, as well as the needs of the greater community, because my calling is beyond the four walls of the church. And so, as a result, I try to empower our people to take the ministry from beyond the stained-glass windows to the community, to the heart of the people, and try to meet people right—\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Where they are. Sundiata, how do you take that on, like the kind of going beyond the walls of the mosque?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Where they are. Sundiata, how do you take that on, like the kind of going beyond the walls of the mosque?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> You know, um, I’ve just always been kind of a people person myself, so I love to get out and talk to folks.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> You know, um, I’ve just always been kind of a people person myself, so I love to get out and talk to folks.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I was telling Nicolò earlier that, really, the pandemic was kind of an opportunity, because when a lot of mosques were closed in Oakland, we actually started doing our services at a local park. That park is known in West Oakland. It’s Mr. Fab’s Park. And so people would see us there, and people who wanted to come to a service started coming to our park service.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I was telling Nicolò earlier that, really, the pandemic was kind of an opportunity, because when a lot of mosques were closed in Oakland, we actually started doing our services at a local park. That park is known in West Oakland. It’s Mr. Fab’s Park. And so people would see us there, and people who wanted to come to a service started coming to our park service.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so after the pandemic, we almost had a whole new congregation of all these new folks who found us, just because we kept operating. We kind of tried to keep things going, because I myself just don’t like to be by myself. So even in a pandemic, I was like, “I gotta get a microphone and talk to people.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so after the pandemic, we almost had a whole new congregation of all these new folks who found us, just because we kept operating. We kind of tried to keep things going, because I myself just don’t like to be by myself. So even in a pandemic, I was like, “I gotta get a microphone and talk to people.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There’s something about ministers and microphones. We just can’t leave them alone. It’s like—\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There’s something about ministers and microphones. We just can’t leave them alone. It’s like—\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I understand. We might share this.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I understand. We might share this.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> You know, Jacqueline, let’s talk a little bit about the people who are not affiliated with a particular faith institution, even if they consider themselves to be religious in some ways. You noted to the Oakland Faith Project that actually a small portion of Jewish residents in Oakland belong to a synagogue. Why do you think that is?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> You know, Jacqueline, let’s talk a little bit about the people who are not affiliated with a particular faith institution, even if they consider themselves to be religious in some ways. You noted to the Oakland Faith Project that actually a small portion of Jewish residents in Oakland belong to a synagogue. Why do you think that is?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> You know, I think, and it was sort of mentioned by Dr. Campbell earlier as well, that there is a sense of spirituality that’s in the water in the Bay Area, especially in the East Bay. So I think that there are some folks who find that sense of spirituality and connection and community in different sorts of places.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> You know, I think, and it was sort of mentioned by Dr. Campbell earlier as well, that there is a sense of spirituality that’s in the water in the Bay Area, especially in the East Bay. So I think that there are some folks who find that sense of spirituality and connection and community in different sorts of places.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Jewish community, or rather, a synagogue, has always been the center of Jewish life. So for some folks, they come around because they feel specifically religious, and for other folks, they’re looking for community or that shared sense of heritage and ethnicity that Judaism is, and so they’re looking to develop their sense of Jewish identity.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The Jewish community, or rather, a synagogue, has always been the center of Jewish life. So for some folks, they come around because they feel specifically religious, and for other folks, they’re looking for community or that shared sense of heritage and ethnicity that Judaism is, and so they’re looking to develop their sense of Jewish identity.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, we have found actually in the last couple of years, with the uptick in antisemitism, that there are more people who are seeking out synagogues and seeking out community in that way.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, we have found actually in the last couple of years, with the uptick in antisemitism, that there are more people who are seeking out synagogues and seeking out community in that way.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I think the question of why aren’t there more is always a great question, but I’m really glad to see that there are folks who are, and I’m proud to know that we’re kind of a through line throughout the history here, so that if and when people want to connect, we are here for them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I think the question of why aren’t there more is always a great question, but I’m really glad to see that there are folks who are, and I’m proud to know that we’re kind of a through line throughout the history here, so that if and when people want to connect, we are here for them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> One listener writes in to say, you know, Eddie writes, “My primary struggle with organized religion is the message that their approach is the right way to worship God. I don’t believe that God is so vain as to require that we worship them or worship in any specific way. I believe that’s one reason many people have shifted to spirituality over religion. You can choose how you want to appreciate God.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> One listener writes in to say, you know, Eddie writes, “My primary struggle with organized religion is the message that their approach is the right way to worship God. I don’t believe that God is so vain as to require that we worship them or worship in any specific way. I believe that’s one reason many people have shifted to spirituality over religion. You can choose how you want to appreciate God.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>James Campbell, this strikes me as quite a modern sensibility, right, that someone would see things in this way.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>James Campbell, this strikes me as quite a modern sensibility, right, that someone would see things in this way.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Campbell:\u003c/strong> Look, I think this is absolutely right. And in some ways, the attitude you’ve just reflected or expressed in that quotation immediately harkens to the great cultural ruptures of the 1960s and early 1970s, when the Bay Area was kind of ground zero. And not just in the realm of organized religion, but in an extraordinary array of different registers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Campbell:\u003c/strong> Look, I think this is absolutely right. And in some ways, the attitude you’ve just reflected or expressed in that quotation immediately harkens to the great cultural ruptures of the 1960s and early 1970s, when the Bay Area was kind of ground zero. And not just in the realm of organized religion, but in an extraordinary array of different registers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Young people and seekers of various kinds were not necessarily rejecting spirituality, not rejecting community, but rejecting what they regarded as the ossified forms in which that had come to be expressed. And I think the roots of an enormous cultural war that we are still fighting in some fashion today are embedded in that quotation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Young people and seekers of various kinds were not necessarily rejecting spirituality, not rejecting community, but rejecting what they regarded as the ossified forms in which that had come to be expressed. And I think the roots of an enormous cultural war that we are still fighting in some fashion today are embedded in that quotation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Nicolò, your project is a tiny bit different, even just as I think about its underlying philosophy, right? It’s not just to go away from all these institutions. It’s actually to go into as many of them as possible, which is kind of different.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Nicolò, your project is a tiny bit different, even just as I think about its underlying philosophy, right? It’s not just to go away from all these institutions. It’s actually to go into as many of them as possible, which is kind of different.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio:\u003c/strong> So first of all, I just wanted to add something to the earlier conversation. I think the spiritual leaders may have been too modest to mention that a lot of these houses of worship play a very vital role in the city beyond the church walls, supporting the community, providing food, shelter, showers, safe housing in their parking lots overnight. And that is a very important role that we need to acknowledge about what the houses of worship are doing in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio:\u003c/strong> So first of all, I just wanted to add something to the earlier conversation. I think the spiritual leaders may have been too modest to mention that a lot of these houses of worship play a very vital role in the city beyond the church walls, supporting the community, providing food, shelter, showers, safe housing in their parking lots overnight. And that is a very important role that we need to acknowledge about what the houses of worship are doing in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In terms of your question, I think it kind of links the points together in that, although I belong to that growing denomination, I, like everybody else, have this thirst for a higher self and belonging and community. And so, maybe consciously or unconsciously, there was a desire to understand and explore that world around me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In terms of your question, I think it kind of links the points together in that, although I belong to that growing denomination, I, like everybody else, have this thirst for a higher self and belonging and community. And so, maybe consciously or unconsciously, there was a desire to understand and explore that world around me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the extreme fascination with this incredible diversity — one of the big parts that brought me to the project was, as you mentioned, during COVID, when everything was locked down and there was all this bad news about Oakland, I wanted to focus on something positive. And to me, having multiple denominations literally sometimes next door to each other, if you go on International Boulevard in Oakland, that’s something very unique. And that’s something very powerful that also reflects the ethnic and social diversity of the city.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the extreme fascination with this incredible diversity — one of the big parts that brought me to the project was, as you mentioned, during COVID, when everything was locked down and there was all this bad news about Oakland, I wanted to focus on something positive. And to me, having multiple denominations literally sometimes next door to each other, if you go on International Boulevard in Oakland, that’s something very unique. And that’s something very powerful that also reflects the ethnic and social diversity of the city.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Of Oakland. Sundiata, one of the things that I have wondered about is how having this war in Gaza, having a war in Iran, having these things going on around the world ends up reflecting back for you inside the mosque.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Of Oakland. Sundiata, one of the things that I have wondered about is how having this war in Gaza, having a war in Iran, having these things going on around the world ends up reflecting back for you inside the mosque.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> You know, so I think a lot of those tragedies do build up attendance at the mosque. Because I think one of the things is that when people leave organized religion, that might be almost a sense of entitlement because they’re not going through things in life.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> You know, so I think a lot of those tragedies do build up attendance at the mosque. Because I think one of the things is that when people leave organized religion, that might be almost a sense of entitlement because they’re not going through things in life.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, like, once they start — if you were even here and you were kind of comfortable, but you’re identifying with your relatives or even just Muslims who you feel an affinity for because of the same religion, and you see the things happening to them — you’ll still be looking for those signs of spiritual answers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, like, once they start — if you were even here and you were kind of comfortable, but you’re identifying with your relatives or even just Muslims who you feel an affinity for because of the same religion, and you see the things happening to them — you’ll still be looking for those signs of spiritual answers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so a lot of times, that’s what religious institutions provide. It’s like, we can answer some of the questions. And like the guy said, sometimes it might be dogmatic, like, “This is the right answer, and anything else is astray.” But I think that most people who encounter religion are just looking for an answer to some of the grief that they’re feeling.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so a lot of times, that’s what religious institutions provide. It’s like, we can answer some of the questions. And like the guy said, sometimes it might be dogmatic, like, “This is the right answer, and anything else is astray.” But I think that most people who encounter religion are just looking for an answer to some of the grief that they’re feeling.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And those institutions, like the mosque, especially during the genocide in Gaza and those kinds of things, were able to drive up attendance, get people coming out and organizing. So many programs at the mosque were centered around those kinds of things that were happening in Iran and things like that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And those institutions, like the mosque, especially during the genocide in Gaza and those kinds of things, were able to drive up attendance, get people coming out and organizing. So many programs at the mosque were centered around those kinds of things that were happening in Iran and things like that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Um, another listener, Ryan, and Rabbi Jacqueline, this one’s coming to you. Ryan writes, “I grew up in a secular Jewish household in Boise, Idaho. I later married a man who was raised observant in the South Bay, and I waded hesitantly but excitedly into a more Jewish life. In 2022, we sent our first child to Temple Sinai’s preschool program.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Um, another listener, Ryan, and Rabbi Jacqueline, this one’s coming to you. Ryan writes, “I grew up in a secular Jewish household in Boise, Idaho. I later married a man who was raised observant in the South Bay, and I waded hesitantly but excitedly into a more Jewish life. In 2022, we sent our first child to Temple Sinai’s preschool program.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“But after the events of October 7, 2023, and the Israeli attacks on Gaza, both of us began feeling increasingly uncomfortable being associated with Jewish organizations that did not condemn those attacks. For the first time in my life, I feel ashamed to be Jewish. But even sadder for me is that this is also true for my husband. He used to take great comfort in his religious practice.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“But after the events of October 7, 2023, and the Israeli attacks on Gaza, both of us began feeling increasingly uncomfortable being associated with Jewish organizations that did not condemn those attacks. For the first time in my life, I feel ashamed to be Jewish. But even sadder for me is that this is also true for my husband. He used to take great comfort in his religious practice.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I think we’re at a generational turning point for Jewish Americans that will drive many of us further from the faith.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I think we’re at a generational turning point for Jewish Americans that will drive many of us further from the faith.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Obviously, this has been an incredibly difficult issue across American life, but specifically Jewish life. How have you been counseling people in your congregation?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Obviously, this has been an incredibly difficult issue across American life, but specifically Jewish life. How have you been counseling people in your congregation?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> So I think there’s a wide range of ways to understand what is happening and different ways to talk about it. I will say that it’s kind of hard to hear “the genocide in Gaza,” which I wasn’t necessarily expecting in this particular conversation. But I will save that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> So I think there’s a wide range of ways to understand what is happening and different ways to talk about it. I will say that it’s kind of hard to hear “the genocide in Gaza,” which I wasn’t necessarily expecting in this particular conversation. But I will save that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think the role of the synagogue is to grapple with the word Israel, because the country is actually named after the people. So we call ourselves Israel, Yisrael, and it means those who wrestle with God.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think the role of the synagogue is to grapple with the word Israel, because the country is actually named after the people. So we call ourselves Israel, Yisrael, and it means those who wrestle with God.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so the point of being a part of a Jewish community is to be able to bring your concerns, bring your questions, bring your values, and bring your frustrations together so that we can have those kinds of conversations and figure out what it means for all of us. And it’s totally fine to disagree on certain kinds of things.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so the point of being a part of a Jewish community is to be able to bring your concerns, bring your questions, bring your values, and bring your frustrations together so that we can have those kinds of conversations and figure out what it means for all of us. And it’s totally fine to disagree on certain kinds of things.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think the problem that we’re seeing right now, not just in the Jewish community but in a much greater way, is that people are choosing sides and teams and not having those kinds of conversations, not trying to understand other people and grapple with the things that are happening in the world and the things happening in our lives.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think the problem that we’re seeing right now, not just in the Jewish community but in a much greater way, is that people are choosing sides and teams and not having those kinds of conversations, not trying to understand other people and grapple with the things that are happening in the world and the things happening in our lives.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I would actually argue that if you are looking for a place to be able to do that, it might not be one synagogue or one church or one mosque or the other, but it could be somewhere in that realm where you can find places to wrestle with the things that are difficult and be able to understand what it means for your life.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I would actually argue that if you are looking for a place to be able to do that, it might not be one synagogue or one church or one mosque or the other, but it could be somewhere in that realm where you can find places to wrestle with the things that are difficult and be able to understand what it means for your life.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Michael Wallace, how do you see your role in this sort of cross-faith collaboration? Do you do a lot of it? Do you not do a lot of it?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Michael Wallace, how do you see your role in this sort of cross-faith collaboration? Do you do a lot of it? Do you not do a lot of it?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> We engage a lot in collaboration across denominational lines, faith traditions, generations, as well as culture. It’s absolutely essential because we have to move from our silos to systems. And we realize that collectively we can have a greater impact, a more meaningful impact, in our communities and the people that we serve.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> We engage a lot in collaboration across denominational lines, faith traditions, generations, as well as culture. It’s absolutely essential because we have to move from our silos to systems. And we realize that collectively we can have a greater impact, a more meaningful impact, in our communities and the people that we serve.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I just want to allude to something that you mentioned earlier: the Black church in our culture has always been on the front line of addressing inequalities in our society. We have always been on the front line of addressing disparities within our society. We’ve always been at the forefront of addressing injustice in our society.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I just want to allude to something that you mentioned earlier: the Black church in our culture has always been on the front line of addressing inequalities in our society. We have always been on the front line of addressing disparities within our society. We’ve always been at the forefront of addressing injustice in our society.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so, in that tradition, in that vein, it’s absolutely essential that we continue to address injustices anywhere among any people, regardless of their race, creed, or color.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so, in that tradition, in that vein, it’s absolutely essential that we continue to address injustices anywhere among any people, regardless of their race, creed, or color.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so, as a result of that, we do build collaborations. I work with a number of groups. One particular group is Impact Oakland Now, ION, and it’s a collective of six progressive pastors and churches that are basically addressing social, economic, educational, and spiritual needs within the community. So we do a lot of work collectively to have an impact for the most marginalized within our communities.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so, as a result of that, we do build collaborations. I work with a number of groups. One particular group is Impact Oakland Now, ION, and it’s a collective of six progressive pastors and churches that are basically addressing social, economic, educational, and spiritual needs within the community. So we do a lot of work collectively to have an impact for the most marginalized within our communities.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Collaboration is absolutely essential. As he indicated earlier, we went to Los Angeles together to work in collaboration. And so I work a lot with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I served as the chairperson of Faith in Action East Bay, which consists of a lot of rabbis and Jewish synagogues. And so we find that working together, we can have much more of an impact on our society.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Collaboration is absolutely essential. As he indicated earlier, we went to Los Angeles together to work in collaboration. And so I work a lot with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I served as the chairperson of Faith in Action East Bay, which consists of a lot of rabbis and Jewish synagogues. And so we find that working together, we can have much more of an impact on our society.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Sundiata, I was thinking about this. I mean, you’re the Muslim chaplain at USF, which I think of as a very Catholic university.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Sundiata, I was thinking about this. I mean, you’re the Muslim chaplain at USF, which I think of as a very Catholic university.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> Go down. How does that work? You know, every university is going to be diverse, but USF is rated as the most diverse campus in the United States, right here in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> Go down. How does that work? You know, every university is going to be diverse, but USF is rated as the most diverse campus in the United States, right here in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I took my daughter there when I first got the job, and I’ve been to different MSAs and worked with different Muslim Student Associations. She would always tag along, her and my son, and she was shocked at just how many people of color there were.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I took my daughter there when I first got the job, and I’ve been to different MSAs and worked with different Muslim Student Associations. She would always tag along, her and my son, and she was shocked at just how many people of color there were.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then I was like, “Let’s count the Black folks.” So when I was young and we lived in Berkeley, my dad used to play a game called “Let’s Count the Vovos,” because there were always a lot of Vovos in Berkeley. So we were like, let’s count, and we gave up counting when we got to about 100.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then I was like, “Let’s count the Black folks.” So when I was young and we lived in Berkeley, my dad used to play a game called “Let’s Count the Vovos,” because there were always a lot of Vovos in Berkeley. So we were like, let’s count, and we gave up counting when we got to about 100.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, it’s a small campus, but we got to about 110 Black people just walking through. Tonight — if you’re biracial or something, my daughter wasn’t counting that. She was like, “So these were, like, you know, 110.” They’re not saying biracial folks aren’t authentic, but there were no, no — so that’s me at USF.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, it’s a small campus, but we got to about 110 Black people just walking through. Tonight — if you’re biracial or something, my daughter wasn’t counting that. She was like, “So these were, like, you know, 110.” They’re not saying biracial folks aren’t authentic, but there were no, no — so that’s me at USF.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s interesting. We’re talking about religious communities in Oakland, the future of religious traditions. We’re joined by a trio of faith leaders, as well as the people working on the Oakland Faith Project, including its founder, Nicolò Sertorio. We’ll be back with more right after the break.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s interesting. We’re talking about religious communities in Oakland, the future of religious traditions. We’re joined by a trio of faith leaders, as well as the people working on the Oakland Faith Project, including its founder, Nicolò Sertorio. We’ll be back with more right after the break.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. Alexis Madrigal here, joined by Nicolò Sertorio, who is founder, artist, and photographer of the Oakland Faith Project. He’s got his house of worship story, and James Campbell is also Edgar E. Robinson Professor in United States History at Stanford. We’ve got Rabbi Jacqueline Mates-Muchin, who is senior rabbi at Temple Sinai. We’ve got Sundiata Rashid, imam at Lighthouse Mosque and Muslim chaplain at the University of San Francisco, and we’ve got Pastor Michael Wallace of Mount Zion Missionary Baptist Church.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. Alexis Madrigal here, joined by Nicolò Sertorio, who is founder, artist, and photographer of the Oakland Faith Project. He’s got his house of worship story, and James Campbell is also Edgar E. Robinson Professor in United States History at Stanford. We’ve got Rabbi Jacqueline Mates-Muchin, who is senior rabbi at Temple Sinai. We’ve got Sundiata Rashid, imam at Lighthouse Mosque and Muslim chaplain at the University of San Francisco, and we’ve got Pastor Michael Wallace of Mount Zion Missionary Baptist Church.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This project began, Nicolò, with the photographs that you were taking, and you actually now have them up in a show at 1500 Broadway, is that right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This project began, Nicolò, with the photographs that you were taking, and you actually now have them up in a show at 1500 Broadway, is that right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio:\u003c/strong> Yes. The project exploded in some ways. So I did start with the houses of worship, and then for the second part I partnered with my good friend and colleague, and also a good photographer, J. Michael Tucker, in taking the portraits. And furthermore, we decided to start recording their oral histories.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio:\u003c/strong> Yes. The project exploded in some ways. So I did start with the houses of worship, and then for the second part I partnered with my good friend and colleague, and also a good photographer, J. Michael Tucker, in taking the portraits. And furthermore, we decided to start recording their oral histories.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Later, after doing a solo show at Oakland City Hall, I was offered the opportunity to exhibit in this empty commercial space at 1500 Broadway. It’s a very large, over 2,000-square-foot space that we now have open Monday to Friday.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Later, after doing a solo show at Oakland City Hall, I was offered the opportunity to exhibit in this empty commercial space at 1500 Broadway. It’s a very large, over 2,000-square-foot space that we now have open Monday to Friday.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it’s been really interesting to see the constant flow of people and the conversations that I have encouraged just by people listening to spiritual leaders and discovering new sides of them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And it’s been really interesting to see the constant flow of people and the conversations that I have encouraged just by people listening to spiritual leaders and discovering new sides of them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And also, I think it’s important that we don’t move away from difficult conversations, but rather confront them full-on. To me, that is actually one of the biggest measures of a successful art project: if people talk about it, good or bad.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And also, I think it’s important that we don’t move away from difficult conversations, but rather confront them full-on. To me, that is actually one of the biggest measures of a successful art project: if people talk about it, good or bad.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. We’ve got a few different folks who have been grappling with these various topics. Some folks with other religious beliefs. One listener writes, “My friends and I believe that nature is my church.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. We’ve got a few different folks who have been grappling with these various topics. Some folks with other religious beliefs. One listener writes, “My friends and I believe that nature is my church.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And Peggy writes in to say, “I belong to the Buddhist Church of Oakland. The Buddhist teachings make sense to me and are based on gratitude and compassion for all living beings. I also find great community in our church. We have our annual Spring Bazaar and our Obon Festival in early August, and everyone is welcome.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And Peggy writes in to say, “I belong to the Buddhist Church of Oakland. The Buddhist teachings make sense to me and are based on gratitude and compassion for all living beings. I also find great community in our church. We have our annual Spring Bazaar and our Obon Festival in early August, and everyone is welcome.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Our church was founded in 1901 and survived the mass incarceration of Japanese and Japanese Americans during World War II. This year, we are celebrating our 125th anniversary.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Our church was founded in 1901 and survived the mass incarceration of Japanese and Japanese Americans during World War II. This year, we are celebrating our 125th anniversary.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I mean, one of the things that strikes me, Pastor Michael Wallace, out of this is just that there’s something to the fact that these institutions have been around for so long. Maybe a hundred years old, 120 years old, whatever it is.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I mean, one of the things that strikes me, Pastor Michael Wallace, out of this is just that there’s something to the fact that these institutions have been around for so long. Maybe a hundred years old, 120 years old, whatever it is.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> No, that’s true, and that just really is a tribute to them surviving through some more difficult times. If you’ve been around a church or a facility or a house of faith that’s been around for over a hundred years, that means they have seen the pendulum swing from one side to the other.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> No, that’s true, and that just really is a tribute to them surviving through some more difficult times. If you’ve been around a church or a facility or a house of faith that’s been around for over a hundred years, that means they have seen the pendulum swing from one side to the other.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They have lived through the dark days of the Depression. They have lived through the turbulent times of the ’60s. They have lived through the free speech movements of the ’70s and so forth.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>They have lived through the dark days of the Depression. They have lived through the turbulent times of the ’60s. They have lived through the free speech movements of the ’70s and so forth.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, as a result, I think it’s a testament to that particular institution or that place of faith that they have been able to weather many storms. But you don’t just weather storms. In order to survive that long, you have to be doing something positive, having a meaningful impact, meeting the needs of the people. And so I think that’s a true testament to their survival.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, as a result, I think it’s a testament to that particular institution or that place of faith that they have been able to weather many storms. But you don’t just weather storms. In order to survive that long, you have to be doing something positive, having a meaningful impact, meeting the needs of the people. And so I think that’s a true testament to their survival.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Especially at a time when there’s so much change in the Bay Area and so much change in Oakland over the last even just 20 years, let alone 120 years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Especially at a time when there’s so much change in the Bay Area and so much change in Oakland over the last even just 20 years, let alone 120 years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> Oh, absolutely. I mean, just say post-pandemic. Let’s just be in the last five years. It has been really different because, prior to the pandemic, we had a lot of people attending services. During the pandemic, people were not allowed to gather. And then post-pandemic, there was a large falling away.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> Oh, absolutely. I mean, just say post-pandemic. Let’s just be in the last five years. It has been really different because, prior to the pandemic, we had a lot of people attending services. During the pandemic, people were not allowed to gather. And then post-pandemic, there was a large falling away.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But now we have this political and social climate that we’re currently existing in that, to me, has more people turning back to places of faith, to their faith, in order to find how to navigate through the challenging and difficult days that we’re facing right now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But now we have this political and social climate that we’re currently existing in that, to me, has more people turning back to places of faith, to their faith, in order to find how to navigate through the challenging and difficult days that we’re facing right now.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Let’s bring in a couple of callers here. Let’s go to Art in West Sacramento. Welcome, Art.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Let’s bring in a couple of callers here. Let’s go to Art in West Sacramento. Welcome, Art.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Art:\u003c/strong> Hi.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Art:\u003c/strong> Hi.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Hi. Hello? Yep, we can hear you. Go ahead.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Hi. Hello? Yep, we can hear you. Go ahead.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Art:\u003c/strong> Okay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Art:\u003c/strong> Okay.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We could hear you, at least, that is to say. Sorry about that, Art. We’ll try and come back to you. I don’t know what’s going on with the phones this morning.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We could hear you, at least, that is to say. Sorry about that, Art. We’ll try and come back to you. I don’t know what’s going on with the phones this morning.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Let’s talk a little bit about one major topic. And maybe, Rabbi Jacqueline, I’ll come to you on this. One of the things that I think has been — I don’t want to put a value judgment on it — but many people have gone to AI chatbots, kind of asking for life advice, even borderline spiritual advice, as people try to figure out what they want and find meaning in life. How do you approach something like that and kind of bring people towards other people?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Let’s talk a little bit about one major topic. And maybe, Rabbi Jacqueline, I’ll come to you on this. One of the things that I think has been — I don’t want to put a value judgment on it — but many people have gone to AI chatbots, kind of asking for life advice, even borderline spiritual advice, as people try to figure out what they want and find meaning in life. How do you approach something like that and kind of bring people towards other people?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> I think it’s rough, just because everybody needs to find an outlet that makes the most sense for them. I think the best thing that we can do is to ensure a thriving community and make people aware that we are here if they want to connect.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> I think it’s rough, just because everybody needs to find an outlet that makes the most sense for them. I think the best thing that we can do is to ensure a thriving community and make people aware that we are here if they want to connect.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, I think it is hard to hear sometimes folks say that they don’t go to religious institutions because they think that we’re going to be dogmatic. But you actually don’t know what’s happening unless you give it a try.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, I think it is hard to hear sometimes folks say that they don’t go to religious institutions because they think that we’re going to be dogmatic. But you actually don’t know what’s happening unless you give it a try.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So it is a worry in our world now that folks are tending to be a little bit more isolated and not necessarily wanting to make themselves vulnerable, which can happen if you are a part of a community. Then you become a part of the community in all sorts of ways.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So it is a worry in our world now that folks are tending to be a little bit more isolated and not necessarily wanting to make themselves vulnerable, which can happen if you are a part of a community. Then you become a part of the community in all sorts of ways.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But my hope is just that if you’re curious, if you have any desire to see what it is, or even if you’re thinking that we are saying one thing, you know, come in and see if it’s true. And hopefully you’ll be able to find a community that’s meaningful. And if it isn’t meaningful, then that’s okay, too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But my hope is just that if you’re curious, if you have any desire to see what it is, or even if you’re thinking that we are saying one thing, you know, come in and see if it’s true. And hopefully you’ll be able to find a community that’s meaningful. And if it isn’t meaningful, then that’s okay, too.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Jim, one of the things that I think is interesting about some of the research around these things is that our churches have gotten more sorted politically. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Jim, one of the things that I think is interesting about some of the research around these things is that our churches have gotten more sorted politically. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Campbell:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, I also want to point out one thing, since you had one of the people who wrote in about the Buddhist Church of Oakland. That group not only survived the experience of Japanese American incarceration during the Second World War, they also survived the interstate road system.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Campbell:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, I also want to point out one thing, since you had one of the people who wrote in about the Buddhist Church of Oakland. That group not only survived the experience of Japanese American incarceration during the Second World War, they also survived the interstate road system.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That’s one of the churches that, under eminent domain, was slated for destruction, and the people in it actually sawed it in half, put it on trucks, and moved it, preserving it. So there’s lots of vicissitudes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That’s one of the churches that, under eminent domain, was slated for destruction, and the people in it actually sawed it in half, put it on trucks, and moved it, preserving it. So there’s lots of vicissitudes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>One of the messages that came out of doing this research for me about religious life in Oakland was just its extraordinary resiliency. But, in any event, on the question you asked, if you go back not very long ago, maybe even to the turn of the century—\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>One of the messages that came out of doing this research for me about religious life in Oakland was just its extraordinary resiliency. But, in any event, on the question you asked, if you go back not very long ago, maybe even to the turn of the century—\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That is to say, the year 2000.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That is to say, the year 2000.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Campbell:\u003c/strong> Correct. The people sitting in the pews next to you were just as likely to be Democrats as they were likely to be Republicans. And that is manifestly not the case now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Campbell:\u003c/strong> Correct. The people sitting in the pews next to you were just as likely to be Democrats as they were likely to be Republicans. And that is manifestly not the case now.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I mean, the process of people moving away from traditional religions and denominations is across the board. It’s happening among evangelicals, mainstream Protestants, Catholics, and so forth, but it does correlate with political affiliation.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>I mean, the process of people moving away from traditional religions and denominations is across the board. It’s happening among evangelicals, mainstream Protestants, Catholics, and so forth, but it does correlate with political affiliation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And one of the things that, to me, is most alarming as someone who grew up in a Christian tradition is the way in which that tradition in our country today is increasingly being appropriated or donned as a mantle by certain kinds of political actors who, I think, make a mockery of the teachings of the person they profess to worship.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And one of the things that, to me, is most alarming as someone who grew up in a Christian tradition is the way in which that tradition in our country today is increasingly being appropriated or donned as a mantle by certain kinds of political actors who, I think, make a mockery of the teachings of the person they profess to worship.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I don’t mean to be overly political about this, but I think that’s happened. I think a very large part of the movement away from orthodox religion in recent years — there’s been a dramatic, phenomenal outflow of people, measured in millions nationally, in the wake of the election of 2016, for example.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I don’t mean to be overly political about this, but I think that’s happened. I think a very large part of the movement away from orthodox religion in recent years — there’s been a dramatic, phenomenal outflow of people, measured in millions nationally, in the wake of the election of 2016, for example.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so that’s clearly one of the things that’s happening now, and I think it’s really unhealthy for our country. You know, part of what the United States always had was a very robust civic life, not just churches, but Rotary clubs and bowling leagues, and the list goes on and on, including Little Leagues, where you routinely interacted with people who voted for different political parties from you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so that’s clearly one of the things that’s happening now, and I think it’s really unhealthy for our country. You know, part of what the United States always had was a very robust civic life, not just churches, but Rotary clubs and bowling leagues, and the list goes on and on, including Little Leagues, where you routinely interacted with people who voted for different political parties from you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That tradition is eroding in our society, and I think that’s very threatening for our democracy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That tradition is eroding in our society, and I think that’s very threatening for our democracy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Let’s see if we can get Art in West Sacramento back here.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Let’s see if we can get Art in West Sacramento back here.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Art:\u003c/strong> Hey, Art, sorry about that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Art:\u003c/strong> Hey, Art, sorry about that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Hey, no worries.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Hey, no worries.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Art:\u003c/strong> I’m 11th in a family of 15. I was a former Catholic, Seventh-day Adventist, Pentecostal. I was going on the Pentecostal track. I attended the University of California, Davis. I decided that I could not become a Pentecostal minister because they wanted me to preach against my sister being a lesbian. And I said, “She’s not going to hell. It’s not possible. I cannot preach that way.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Art:\u003c/strong> I’m 11th in a family of 15. I was a former Catholic, Seventh-day Adventist, Pentecostal. I was going on the Pentecostal track. I attended the University of California, Davis. I decided that I could not become a Pentecostal minister because they wanted me to preach against my sister being a lesbian. And I said, “She’s not going to hell. It’s not possible. I cannot preach that way.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it turns out the guy that was leading me was actually using me as a young person to paint homes and making money off of me, and just was running a puppy mill later on in life. This guy was being sued by the city that I grew up in.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And it turns out the guy that was leading me was actually using me as a young person to paint homes and making money off of me, and just was running a puppy mill later on in life. This guy was being sued by the city that I grew up in.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It just is really… And then let’s add to that things like Tammy Faye, Tammy’s magic stories that come out of… And it’s no wonder, in my mind, why we have the kind of leadership we have in the country, in one way.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It just is really… And then let’s add to that things like Tammy Faye, Tammy’s magic stories that come out of… And it’s no wonder, in my mind, why we have the kind of leadership we have in the country, in one way.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The second part is that, of course, people are going to turn away from things that they can’t have trust in. And to rebuild that trust doesn’t necessarily come down to belief in God or some supernatural power, because people have that. What they don’t believe in is the people who are mediating the process. And I’ll leave it at that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The second part is that, of course, people are going to turn away from things that they can’t have trust in. And to rebuild that trust doesn’t necessarily come down to belief in God or some supernatural power, because people have that. What they don’t believe in is the people who are mediating the process. And I’ll leave it at that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, thank you. Great, great comment. I’m glad you hung with us there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, thank you. Great, great comment. I’m glad you hung with us there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I mean, yeah, Pastor Michael, I think this is, you know, growing up in an era of televangelists myself, and just seeing them on and being like, “Boy, what is this? What does this have to do with the Bible or anything?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I mean, yeah, Pastor Michael, I think this is, you know, growing up in an era of televangelists myself, and just seeing them on and being like, “Boy, what is this? What does this have to do with the Bible or anything?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> Well, yeah. I mean, without question, the swell of the televangelists over the years, particularly during that era, was enormous because they were on the airwaves 24/7. You could not miss it. And as a result, those individuals became bigger than life.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> Well, yeah. I mean, without question, the swell of the televangelists over the years, particularly during that era, was enormous because they were on the airwaves 24/7. You could not miss it. And as a result, those individuals became bigger than life.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so what you have is a personality-driven church. And anytime you have a personality-driven church, that means it’s centered around the human being that’s, quote-unquote, the personality of that church. And so when that personality is defective or false, then that whole movement shifts to a decline.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so what you have is a personality-driven church. And anytime you have a personality-driven church, that means it’s centered around the human being that’s, quote-unquote, the personality of that church. And so when that personality is defective or false, then that whole movement shifts to a decline.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so that’s what we’ve seen with some of the great movements, from Jimmy Swaggart to Jim Bakker to many others who were personality-driven.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so that’s what we’ve seen with some of the great movements, from Jimmy Swaggart to Jim Bakker to many others who were personality-driven.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so what we have to do, and I think our society is demanding this, is shift from personality-driven to either Christ-centered or centered on whomever your higher authority is. But it has to be centered on that person and not the human individual.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so what we have to do, and I think our society is demanding this, is shift from personality-driven to either Christ-centered or centered on whomever your higher authority is. But it has to be centered on that person and not the human individual.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Sundiata?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Sundiata?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> I mean, I think it’s fine for people. I mean, for me, it’s not one size fits all. So, like, there are probably many Muslims who don’t go to the mosque, but they’re still Muslim, you know what I’m saying? And then there are many Muslims who do go to the mosque.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> I mean, I think it’s fine for people. I mean, for me, it’s not one size fits all. So, like, there are probably many Muslims who don’t go to the mosque, but they’re still Muslim, you know what I’m saying? And then there are many Muslims who do go to the mosque.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There might be, you know, like in Oakland, we might have 10 or 11 masajid, or mosques. For me, if Lighthouse isn’t your thing and you want to go to, you know, we always name our mosques after streets, 31st Street or 47th or whatever, I’m always fine with that. I’m like, that’s cool, just do you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There might be, you know, like in Oakland, we might have 10 or 11 masajid, or mosques. For me, if Lighthouse isn’t your thing and you want to go to, you know, we always name our mosques after streets, 31st Street or 47th or whatever, I’m always fine with that. I’m like, that’s cool, just do you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, like, for somebody who might have had a tragic experience and got turned away from religion, I’m not going to try to recruit them or try to get them back. They should just do what they’re comfortable with, you know what I’m saying?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, like, for somebody who might have had a tragic experience and got turned away from religion, I’m not going to try to recruit them or try to get them back. They should just do what they’re comfortable with, you know what I’m saying?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, yeah. Let’s bring in Gail in Oakland with a comment here. Welcome, Gail.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, yeah. Let’s bring in Gail in Oakland with a comment here. Welcome, Gail.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gail:\u003c/strong> Kate, thanks, Alexis. Nice to talk to you. I knew you in my former iteration as an Oakland restaurant owner.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gail:\u003c/strong> Kate, thanks, Alexis. Nice to talk to you. I knew you in my former iteration as an Oakland restaurant owner.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I wanted to let listeners know or remind them about the Oakland Interfaith Gospel Choir. I’m a member of the Oakland Interfaith Community Choir, which is one of the sister choirs under the umbrella of OIGC. And OIGC has been around for 41 years, and I’ve been singing with them and recently became a board member because I love it so much.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I wanted to let listeners know or remind them about the Oakland Interfaith Gospel Choir. I’m a member of the Oakland Interfaith Community Choir, which is one of the sister choirs under the umbrella of OIGC. And OIGC has been around for 41 years, and I’ve been singing with them and recently became a board member because I love it so much.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s a huge joy in my life, and I think a beautiful reflection of the 23 religions represented in our choir, singing together, learning a lot about Black history, really inspiring joy in our audiences and our performances, and just an incredible reflection of the diversity of Oakland.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It’s a huge joy in my life, and I think a beautiful reflection of the 23 religions represented in our choir, singing together, learning a lot about Black history, really inspiring joy in our audiences and our performances, and just an incredible reflection of the diversity of Oakland.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> It’s kind of like the sonic version of your project, Nicolò.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> It’s kind of like the sonic version of your project, Nicolò.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I would like to take the opportunity to invite you to come and sing at 1500 Broadway.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I would like to take the opportunity to invite you to come and sing at 1500 Broadway.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> Oh, yeah, that’s a good idea, actually. The Oakland Interfaith Choir is absolutely amazing. Minister Terrence Kelly, who has served as the leader of that, they do a tremendous job. It’s a collective collaboration of many faith traditions coming together and unified, pulling in the same direction. And they are really amazing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> Oh, yeah, that’s a good idea, actually. The Oakland Interfaith Choir is absolutely amazing. Minister Terrence Kelly, who has served as the leader of that, they do a tremendous job. It’s a collective collaboration of many faith traditions coming together and unified, pulling in the same direction. And they are really amazing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Gail, the people want to hear you sing, though.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Gail, the people want to hear you sing, though.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gail:\u003c/strong> That’s not going to happen. It’s totally fine, but I’m going to come to our conference.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gail:\u003c/strong> That’s not going to happen. It’s totally fine, but I’m going to come to our conference.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I had to try. I had to try. Producer Grace made me.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I had to try. I had to try. Producer Grace made me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gail:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you had to try. Good try, good try.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gail:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you had to try. Good try, good try.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> All right, thank you, Gail. Thank you so much. Lots of comments here from listeners who’ve just found their place, which is kind of nice.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> All right, thank you, Gail. Thank you so much. Lots of comments here from listeners who’ve just found their place, which is kind of nice.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Rishi on the Discord writes, “I’m so glad to have found my local UCC congregational church of Sunnyvale. Progressive but not zealous, just kind, sensible people. I love my UCC church for the solstice celebration. I also try to practice nonsectarian meditation, a way of life taught by the Buddha. And I volunteered at a local food distribution organization founded by a group of like-minded Indians. As my Hindu saints told me, helping others is doing God’s work.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Rishi on the Discord writes, “I’m so glad to have found my local UCC congregational church of Sunnyvale. Progressive but not zealous, just kind, sensible people. I love my UCC church for the solstice celebration. I also try to practice nonsectarian meditation, a way of life taught by the Buddha. And I volunteered at a local food distribution organization founded by a group of like-minded Indians. As my Hindu saints told me, helping others is doing God’s work.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So many. Here’s another comment. Gina writes, “I grew up attending a couple of different Oakland synagogues, but as a young person, I couldn’t see what relevance most of these ancient Jewish texts and rules could have to my life. And I couldn’t believe in the God I saw represented there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So many. Here’s another comment. Gina writes, “I grew up attending a couple of different Oakland synagogues, but as a young person, I couldn’t see what relevance most of these ancient Jewish texts and rules could have to my life. And I couldn’t believe in the God I saw represented there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I saw the problems religious conflict had caused throughout history and how religion was used as a reason to cast out certain types of people, and I wanted none of it. But once I had a kid, I decided to keep an open mind and seek out a different approach to bringing Judaism into my life, into my family.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I saw the problems religious conflict had caused throughout history and how religion was used as a reason to cast out certain types of people, and I wanted none of it. But once I had a kid, I decided to keep an open mind and seek out a different approach to bringing Judaism into my life, into my family.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I found an organization called Jewish Gateways, a community based in Albany that doesn’t have its own building but offers a variety of educational programs for families and adults that have changed my perspective on Judaism and helped me see its relevance to living an ethical and meaningful life in community.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I found an organization called Jewish Gateways, a community based in Albany that doesn’t have its own building but offers a variety of educational programs for families and adults that have changed my perspective on Judaism and helped me see its relevance to living an ethical and meaningful life in community.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Rabbi Jacqueline, how often do you see someone come back to the temple because they want their family to have some of this shared basis of faith?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Rabbi Jacqueline, how often do you see someone come back to the temple because they want their family to have some of this shared basis of faith?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> I actually think it’s very common that folks, once they have children and want to try to help create a lens and help their kids form their identity, it’s very common for folks to come back and want to put their kids into a religious school and Hebrew school, and to have them have some sense of what it means to be a part of the Jewish community.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> I actually think it’s very common that folks, once they have children and want to try to help create a lens and help their kids form their identity, it’s very common for folks to come back and want to put their kids into a religious school and Hebrew school, and to have them have some sense of what it means to be a part of the Jewish community.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I’d say it’s actually very common, and I appreciate it. I think that that’s a part of the stage of life that makes a lot of sense, that you’re developing a sense of your home and your household, with traditions and roots. And so it’s very welcome.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I’d say it’s actually very common, and I appreciate it. I think that that’s a part of the stage of life that makes a lot of sense, that you’re developing a sense of your home and your household, with traditions and roots. And so it’s very welcome.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Last one. Alison writes, “I found the Oakland Unitarian Church along with my partner fairly recently. We needed a faith community that was engaged in resistance to the cruelty of our current national politics. It has been wonderful to be engaged with other seekers who have made the commitment to not accept our present circumstances, but rather to fight for justice for all marginalized people. It is a spiritual quest and a way to feel connected to what is good.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Last one. Alison writes, “I found the Oakland Unitarian Church along with my partner fairly recently. We needed a faith community that was engaged in resistance to the cruelty of our current national politics. It has been wonderful to be engaged with other seekers who have made the commitment to not accept our present circumstances, but rather to fight for justice for all marginalized people. It is a spiritual quest and a way to feel connected to what is good.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We have been talking about religious communities in Oakland and the future of religious traditions. You can go take a look at the Oakland Faith Project’s exhibition at 1500 Broadway.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We have been talking about religious communities in Oakland and the future of religious traditions. You can go take a look at the Oakland Faith Project’s exhibition at 1500 Broadway.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’ve been joined by its founder, Nicolò Sertorio. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We’ve been joined by its founder, Nicolò Sertorio. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio:\u003c/strong> All right. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio:\u003c/strong> All right. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And Jim Campbell, Edgar E. Robinson Professor in United States History at Stanford. Thank you. Might have lost him.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And Jim Campbell, Edgar E. Robinson Professor in United States History at Stanford. Thank you. Might have lost him.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Rabbi Jacqueline Mates-Muchin at Temple Sinai, thank you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Rabbi Jacqueline Mates-Muchin at Temple Sinai, thank you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Sundiata Rashid from Lighthouse Mosque, thank you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Sundiata Rashid from Lighthouse Mosque, thank you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And Michael Wallace, pastor at Mount Zion Missionary Baptist Church in West Oakland. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And Michael Wallace, pastor at Mount Zion Missionary Baptist Church in West Oakland. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much to all of our callers and listeners. Sorry about those problems on the phones. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned for another hour of \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> ahead with Mina.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much to all of our callers and listeners. Sorry about those problems on the phones. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned for another hour of \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> ahead with Mina.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Announcer:\u003c/strong> Funds for the production of \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> are provided by the Jenerosity Family Fund and the members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Tuesday, October 13, 2026 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Oakland is home to dozens of houses of worship, and the “Oakland Faith Project,” aims to document these spaces and their leaders at a time when many are turning away from religion. Photographer and documentarian Nicolò Sertorio’s website includes stark black and white photography and interviews with religious leaders who represent various walks of life, identity and beliefs. We’ll talk with Sertorio, project partners and some of Oakland’s religious leaders about “de-churching” in the Bay Area and the future of organized religion. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio\u003c/strong>, founder, artist and photographer, Oakland Faith Project\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>James Campbell,\u003c/strong> Edgar E Robinson professor in United States History, Stanford University; partner, Oakland Faith Project\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin,\u003c/strong> senior rabbi, Temple Sinai\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid,\u003c/strong> imam, Lighthouse Mosque; Muslim Chaplain, University of San Francisco\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace,\u003c/strong> pastor, Mt. Zion Missionary Baptist Church\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Like many people, Nicolò Sertorio had his life turned upside down by COVID. He was a photographer, and suddenly his normal business was gone. Italian by birth and raised by two science professors, he’d been on his own spiritual path and had been struck by the pluralism of the religious scene in his adoptive home of Oakland. So when the pandemic started, he set out on a personal quest to photograph all of the city’s churches, mosques, synagogues, and other places of worship. Four hundred and sixty-six locations later, the Oakland Faith Project has expanded to include portraits of faith leaders and fascinating audio of them talking about their views and work in the community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So this hour, we’re going to be joined by some faith leaders, as well as the Oakland Faith Project folks. We’re joined first by Nicolò himself. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio:\u003c/strong> Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re also joined by James Campbell, Edgar E. Robinson Professor in United States History at Stanford, a partner and, I guess, the house historian at the Oakland Faith Project. Welcome, Jim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Campbell:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Nicolò, when COVID hit, you started this project. What do you think you were getting from this work of photographing these houses of worship?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio:\u003c/strong> Well, taking a brief step back, like you mentioned, and you can probably derive from my accent, I grew up in Italy. And so I was used to having pretty much just one church in each town, the Roman Catholic church. And they typically all kind of look the same. They’re all made of stone in the shape of a cross.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So one of the first things that really struck me when I came, moved to the U.S. was the number and diversity of houses of worship, particularly in Oakland, and how free and diverse they are. At the same time, I kept noticing how many of them were shutting down, being torn down, or reconverted into private apartments. And for years, I was wondering why nobody was recording this cultural phenomenon happening right around us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, like you mentioned, when COVID hit and all of a sudden all my businesses were shut down within hours, I realized this was something I was the one who had to do, and this was the perfect time. Honestly, at the time, I didn’t know what I was getting into.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But do you consider yourself more or less religious since you started working on this?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio:\u003c/strong> Oh, since I started? Yeah. Um, interesting question. I still consider myself spiritual but not religious, but I was positively impressed by the people that I met during this project. And so I confess I might have entered with a little bit of a bias from my Italian heritage, and instead I found people who are truly open-minded and liberal, and many have become friends.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s cool. Jim, give us some of the sociological context here. I mean, we know in Europe, obviously, religious affiliation started declining a long time ago. And the U.S. didn’t really follow that trend at first, but now has.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Campbell:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think the United States is an outlier in this. There’s just no question. You know, when we started getting a General Social Survey in the 1970s, American respondents were asked — I don’t think it was a very finely grained survey. It’s given every two years. You had five categories. You could identify yourself as Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, another world religion, or none of the above, religiously unaffiliated.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When that survey started, about 5% of Americans identified themselves as religiously unaffiliated. By the 1990s, believe it or not, that figure had only gone up to about 7%. Today, the General Social Survey has that figure over 30%. Some surveys put it significantly higher, particularly among younger people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the general phenomenon does look like what happened in Europe, a kind of broad process of de-churching, but it’s happening considerably later in this country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Do you think it’s just de-churching, or is it secularization? Are there ways of thinking about splitting out people who are spiritual but not religious?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Campbell:\u003c/strong> That’s a great question. When Nicolò just said, “Well, I consider myself spiritual but not religious,” that’s probably the largest church, if you will, in the United States in some fashion.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So there’s a debate among scholars about this, whether what we’re seeing represents a process of secularization per se, or more a shift in the meaning of spirituality or in the nature of religious experience. There’s a scholar, Robert, I think at Princeton, who writes about this, and a distinction he makes is a shift between what he calls a spirituality of dwelling, which is, you know, you attend the same church every week that your parents attended, and so forth, to a spirituality of seeking.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think that’s a really thought-provoking distinction. For me, a lot of Americans feel free now to fashion spiritual creeds of their own from eclectic materials, in ways that might look less orthodox on the surface. But if you scratch at it and start asking them about specific religious beliefs — do they believe in an afterlife? Do they believe in the presence of angels? — you find actually surprisingly orthodox beliefs even among many people who profess to be religiously unaffiliated.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Is there anything specific about our history of religion here in the Bay Area, or in Oakland even more specifically, that’s worth dwelling on?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Campbell:\u003c/strong> Well, you know, there certainly is a stereotype in the rest of the country that this area is full of godless heathens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Exactly.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Campbell:\u003c/strong> That we’re this kind of godless, forlorn people. I mean, I think the most significant factor here, which really defines the entire Bay Area and Oakland specifically, is that it’s a city of immigrants, and it always has been.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Churches and mosques and synagogues and other houses of worship have played a critical role in enabling immigrant communities to find their feet in a new setting, and also to retain some connection to ways of being, cultural practices, linguistic practices, even foodways, of the nations that they have left behind.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that is certainly what happened in the late 19th and early 20th centuries as Italians and Irish arrived. There were seven different Lutheran churches here in the early 20th century for various Scandinavian migrants. And now you would see the same thing with immigrants from Tonga, Ethiopia, or Eritrea.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So in that sense, there’s a kind of persistent through line. It’s just different immigrant groups, and the specifics of their religious practices might look different.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Interesting. Nicolò, as you worked on this project, you had a vision for what you wanted to ask these faith leaders about, right? You didn’t want just a general conversation. You had some specific things you asked them. What did you want to know from these faith leaders?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio:\u003c/strong> So I wanted to scratch a little bit under the surface. I wanted to talk to them about the issues that are happening around Oakland, and some of the issues that, at least in my upbringing, had pushed people away from traditional churchgoing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I’ve asked them about same-sex marriage. I’ve asked them about the drug epidemic, about the role of their church vis-à-vis politics. And that’s how I started to be so positively surprised by the people I was talking to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Great. Well, let’s bring in a few of these faith leaders that we’ve got here. We’ve got Jacqueline Mates-Muchin, who’s senior rabbi at Temple Sinai. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ve got Sundiata Rashid, who’s an imam at Lighthouse Mosque and also the Muslim chaplain at the University of San Francisco. Welcome!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> Thank you!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And we’ve got Michael Wallace, pastor at Mount Zion Missionary Baptist Church. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> We’re having a s—\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, thanks so much for coming in, everyone. What was it like, Michael Wallace, to have Nicolò come to you and say, “Hey, I want to photograph the church. I want to talk to you about things”?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> When he shared his vision that he wanted to highlight the faith community and Oakland’s legacy as a faith mecca for many different faiths, I was extremely excited and definitely lent all my support behind the project.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I thought that we have such a rich legacy in faith and in the city of Oakland, and so I wanted to be a part of that and make sure we captured the historic aspects of the faith community in Oakland over the years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And your church rank goes back to 1870, is that right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> Our church was actually established in 1922, so we’re 104 years in the West Oakland community. We have primarily served as the mecca church. Many churches have come out of our church.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But more importantly, when many of our ancestors migrated from the South to the North to work in the shipyards, naval supply, on the trains, and things of that nature, they all came to Mount Zion. And we housed veterans after the wars, so it has always been a community hub for the community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Cynthia, what’s the brief summary of how the Lighthouse Mosque came about?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> So the Lighthouse Mosque, we definitely didn’t start in 1922. We started in about 2007, and in 2013 we were actually able to purchase the church that we’re at now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And yeah, so we’re really the new people on the block. We’re really the new ones, because I grew up in West Oakland, South Berkeley, so I remember all of the Star Bethel and Mount Zion. Those are kind of the historical churches I remember in the East Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, I love Pastor Mike Wallace. We actually went to Los Angeles together one time. No, I’m saying—\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And so, yeah. Yeah, that’s great. And Jacqueline Mates-Muchin, tell us a little bit about Temple Sinai.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> So Temple Sinai was actually founded in 1875, so we’re almost 151 years old. And we had a couple of different locations, but our current sanctuary was finished the same year that Oakland City Hall was finished. So we really see ourselves as a part of the growth of Oakland over time, and have been a consistent presence here in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s great. So we’re going to get into a discussion between all these faith leaders about the things that they’re seeing in the community. And, of course, we also want to hear from our listeners.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Are you a member of a faith community in Oakland or your city? Do you seek comfort in those spaces, or have you moved away from it? Or do you consider yourself religious or spiritual but not religious? We want to hear your story. 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can email Forum at kqed.org. Friends on Bluesky, on Instagram, on Discord, we’re KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This morning, we’ve got Nicolò Sertorio, who’s founder, artist, and photographer at the Oakland Faith Project. We’ve got James Campbell. He’s a professor in United States history at Stanford, and we’ve got three faith leaders with us. We’ve got Rabbi Jacqueline Mates-Muchin, Sundiata Rashid, imam at Lighthouse Mosque, and Pastor Mike Wallace from Mount Zion Missionary Baptist Church.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned for more right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Well, welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. We’re here talking with faith leaders about the Oakland Faith Project. We’ve got Rabbi Jacqueline Mates-Muchin from Temple Sinai. We’ve got Sundiata Rashid from Lighthouse Mosque. We’ve got Mike Wallace from Mount Zion Missionary Baptist Church.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sundiata, let’s talk a little bit about how you got started on the path to becoming an imam at this mosque.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so, you know, I’m a Pisces. No, I’m just playing. No, so I actually, okay, yeah. So when I was younger, I was in the U.S. Marine Corps, and I was Muslim when I went in. And during the Gulf War, a lot of service people converted to Islam.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there weren’t a lot of people who knew about Islam. So because I already had been Muslim, I just kind of got pushed into this thing of teaching people how to pray, leading services, working with other people who were called lay leaders in the military. So they weren’t like the chaplain, but they might run services at a certain base or something like that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So then that kind of carried over. When I got out of the military, I kept on trying to teach classes and doing that for different masajid. And then in 2007, I ended up at Lighthouse Mosque, and Imam Zaid Shakir, who started the mosque, found out that I taught classes and he called me one time. I was so starstruck. He was like, “Oh, this is Imam Zaid Shakir,” and I was like, “Stop playing on my phone. Who’s this?” And he’s like, “No, it’s really Imam Zaid Shakir.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He started asking me to teach and get involved, and now, from 2008 until now, that’s just what I’ve been kind of doing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Um, Jacqueline, you’re the first Chinese American rabbi in the U.S., as I understand it. What does that distinction mean? How do you think it shaped your spiritual journey?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> I actually think it has given me a unique perspective of being able to understand multiple communities and see myself as belonging and grounded in multiple histories and heritages.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think that has actually been a really good experience when we look at Oakland and we see Oakland’s amazing diversity, and the approach that we try to have to be open and understanding of where everyone’s coming from. We recognize that we’re going to the same place. We’re all trying to make the world a better place, and we’re trying to do good here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think it’s been really helpful in trying to get a much, much broader picture of life and experience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Um, Pastor Mike, did you grow up in the church?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> Yes, I did. I grew up in a Christian family. I’m really grateful for my parents. My father served as a deacon in a church, and my mother was an evangelist, one of the first women evangelists in a local church. And so I grew up in a Christian home. I was saved and baptized at the age of 11, and I thank God for my journey.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>With respect to this, that’s on my life. I knew it early on in life, that I had a sacred calling on my life as a teenager. As I progressed through school and college, I pursued a legal profession. So I worked in the legal profession for a number of years and then transitioned over to finance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For a while, I served as associate minister at the New St. Paul Missionary Baptist Church in West Oakland, where I received acknowledgment of my calling. And then I served under Dr. C.J. Anderson at the St. John Missionary Baptist Church. He was a historic pastor in our community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Continuing to work in the finance industry for a number of years, I accepted my call bivocationally. I was associate minister at the local church, and I worked in finance. And I received the call to go to the historic Mount Zion Missionary Baptist Church. I retired from finance and went full-time into ministry. And now I’ve served at Mount Zion as senior pastor for the last 18 years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> What does a senior pastor do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> Well, it varies from church to church, but you basically oversee the whole operation in the ministry. You cast a vision, you empower the people to run with the vision, you teach, you preach, you lead, you serve, and the most important thing is that you serve the people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I am constantly trying to meet the needs of our congregation, as well as the needs of the greater community, because my calling is beyond the four walls of the church. And so, as a result, I try to empower our people to take the ministry from beyond the stained-glass windows to the community, to the heart of the people, and try to meet people right—\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Where they are. Sundiata, how do you take that on, like the kind of going beyond the walls of the mosque?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> You know, um, I’ve just always been kind of a people person myself, so I love to get out and talk to folks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I was telling Nicolò earlier that, really, the pandemic was kind of an opportunity, because when a lot of mosques were closed in Oakland, we actually started doing our services at a local park. That park is known in West Oakland. It’s Mr. Fab’s Park. And so people would see us there, and people who wanted to come to a service started coming to our park service.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so after the pandemic, we almost had a whole new congregation of all these new folks who found us, just because we kept operating. We kind of tried to keep things going, because I myself just don’t like to be by myself. So even in a pandemic, I was like, “I gotta get a microphone and talk to people.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s something about ministers and microphones. We just can’t leave them alone. It’s like—\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I understand. We might share this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> You know, Jacqueline, let’s talk a little bit about the people who are not affiliated with a particular faith institution, even if they consider themselves to be religious in some ways. You noted to the Oakland Faith Project that actually a small portion of Jewish residents in Oakland belong to a synagogue. Why do you think that is?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> You know, I think, and it was sort of mentioned by Dr. Campbell earlier as well, that there is a sense of spirituality that’s in the water in the Bay Area, especially in the East Bay. So I think that there are some folks who find that sense of spirituality and connection and community in different sorts of places.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Jewish community, or rather, a synagogue, has always been the center of Jewish life. So for some folks, they come around because they feel specifically religious, and for other folks, they’re looking for community or that shared sense of heritage and ethnicity that Judaism is, and so they’re looking to develop their sense of Jewish identity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, we have found actually in the last couple of years, with the uptick in antisemitism, that there are more people who are seeking out synagogues and seeking out community in that way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think the question of why aren’t there more is always a great question, but I’m really glad to see that there are folks who are, and I’m proud to know that we’re kind of a through line throughout the history here, so that if and when people want to connect, we are here for them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> One listener writes in to say, you know, Eddie writes, “My primary struggle with organized religion is the message that their approach is the right way to worship God. I don’t believe that God is so vain as to require that we worship them or worship in any specific way. I believe that’s one reason many people have shifted to spirituality over religion. You can choose how you want to appreciate God.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>James Campbell, this strikes me as quite a modern sensibility, right, that someone would see things in this way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Campbell:\u003c/strong> Look, I think this is absolutely right. And in some ways, the attitude you’ve just reflected or expressed in that quotation immediately harkens to the great cultural ruptures of the 1960s and early 1970s, when the Bay Area was kind of ground zero. And not just in the realm of organized religion, but in an extraordinary array of different registers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Young people and seekers of various kinds were not necessarily rejecting spirituality, not rejecting community, but rejecting what they regarded as the ossified forms in which that had come to be expressed. And I think the roots of an enormous cultural war that we are still fighting in some fashion today are embedded in that quotation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Nicolò, your project is a tiny bit different, even just as I think about its underlying philosophy, right? It’s not just to go away from all these institutions. It’s actually to go into as many of them as possible, which is kind of different.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio:\u003c/strong> So first of all, I just wanted to add something to the earlier conversation. I think the spiritual leaders may have been too modest to mention that a lot of these houses of worship play a very vital role in the city beyond the church walls, supporting the community, providing food, shelter, showers, safe housing in their parking lots overnight. And that is a very important role that we need to acknowledge about what the houses of worship are doing in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In terms of your question, I think it kind of links the points together in that, although I belong to that growing denomination, I, like everybody else, have this thirst for a higher self and belonging and community. And so, maybe consciously or unconsciously, there was a desire to understand and explore that world around me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the extreme fascination with this incredible diversity — one of the big parts that brought me to the project was, as you mentioned, during COVID, when everything was locked down and there was all this bad news about Oakland, I wanted to focus on something positive. And to me, having multiple denominations literally sometimes next door to each other, if you go on International Boulevard in Oakland, that’s something very unique. And that’s something very powerful that also reflects the ethnic and social diversity of the city.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Of Oakland. Sundiata, one of the things that I have wondered about is how having this war in Gaza, having a war in Iran, having these things going on around the world ends up reflecting back for you inside the mosque.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> You know, so I think a lot of those tragedies do build up attendance at the mosque. Because I think one of the things is that when people leave organized religion, that might be almost a sense of entitlement because they’re not going through things in life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, like, once they start — if you were even here and you were kind of comfortable, but you’re identifying with your relatives or even just Muslims who you feel an affinity for because of the same religion, and you see the things happening to them — you’ll still be looking for those signs of spiritual answers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so a lot of times, that’s what religious institutions provide. It’s like, we can answer some of the questions. And like the guy said, sometimes it might be dogmatic, like, “This is the right answer, and anything else is astray.” But I think that most people who encounter religion are just looking for an answer to some of the grief that they’re feeling.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And those institutions, like the mosque, especially during the genocide in Gaza and those kinds of things, were able to drive up attendance, get people coming out and organizing. So many programs at the mosque were centered around those kinds of things that were happening in Iran and things like that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Um, another listener, Ryan, and Rabbi Jacqueline, this one’s coming to you. Ryan writes, “I grew up in a secular Jewish household in Boise, Idaho. I later married a man who was raised observant in the South Bay, and I waded hesitantly but excitedly into a more Jewish life. In 2022, we sent our first child to Temple Sinai’s preschool program.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“But after the events of October 7, 2023, and the Israeli attacks on Gaza, both of us began feeling increasingly uncomfortable being associated with Jewish organizations that did not condemn those attacks. For the first time in my life, I feel ashamed to be Jewish. But even sadder for me is that this is also true for my husband. He used to take great comfort in his religious practice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think we’re at a generational turning point for Jewish Americans that will drive many of us further from the faith.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Obviously, this has been an incredibly difficult issue across American life, but specifically Jewish life. How have you been counseling people in your congregation?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> So I think there’s a wide range of ways to understand what is happening and different ways to talk about it. I will say that it’s kind of hard to hear “the genocide in Gaza,” which I wasn’t necessarily expecting in this particular conversation. But I will save that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think the role of the synagogue is to grapple with the word Israel, because the country is actually named after the people. So we call ourselves Israel, Yisrael, and it means those who wrestle with God.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so the point of being a part of a Jewish community is to be able to bring your concerns, bring your questions, bring your values, and bring your frustrations together so that we can have those kinds of conversations and figure out what it means for all of us. And it’s totally fine to disagree on certain kinds of things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think the problem that we’re seeing right now, not just in the Jewish community but in a much greater way, is that people are choosing sides and teams and not having those kinds of conversations, not trying to understand other people and grapple with the things that are happening in the world and the things happening in our lives.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I would actually argue that if you are looking for a place to be able to do that, it might not be one synagogue or one church or one mosque or the other, but it could be somewhere in that realm where you can find places to wrestle with the things that are difficult and be able to understand what it means for your life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Michael Wallace, how do you see your role in this sort of cross-faith collaboration? Do you do a lot of it? Do you not do a lot of it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> We engage a lot in collaboration across denominational lines, faith traditions, generations, as well as culture. It’s absolutely essential because we have to move from our silos to systems. And we realize that collectively we can have a greater impact, a more meaningful impact, in our communities and the people that we serve.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I just want to allude to something that you mentioned earlier: the Black church in our culture has always been on the front line of addressing inequalities in our society. We have always been on the front line of addressing disparities within our society. We’ve always been at the forefront of addressing injustice in our society.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, in that tradition, in that vein, it’s absolutely essential that we continue to address injustices anywhere among any people, regardless of their race, creed, or color.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, as a result of that, we do build collaborations. I work with a number of groups. One particular group is Impact Oakland Now, ION, and it’s a collective of six progressive pastors and churches that are basically addressing social, economic, educational, and spiritual needs within the community. So we do a lot of work collectively to have an impact for the most marginalized within our communities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Collaboration is absolutely essential. As he indicated earlier, we went to Los Angeles together to work in collaboration. And so I work a lot with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I served as the chairperson of Faith in Action East Bay, which consists of a lot of rabbis and Jewish synagogues. And so we find that working together, we can have much more of an impact on our society.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Sundiata, I was thinking about this. I mean, you’re the Muslim chaplain at USF, which I think of as a very Catholic university.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> Go down. How does that work? You know, every university is going to be diverse, but USF is rated as the most diverse campus in the United States, right here in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I took my daughter there when I first got the job, and I’ve been to different MSAs and worked with different Muslim Student Associations. She would always tag along, her and my son, and she was shocked at just how many people of color there were.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then I was like, “Let’s count the Black folks.” So when I was young and we lived in Berkeley, my dad used to play a game called “Let’s Count the Vovos,” because there were always a lot of Vovos in Berkeley. So we were like, let’s count, and we gave up counting when we got to about 100.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, it’s a small campus, but we got to about 110 Black people just walking through. Tonight — if you’re biracial or something, my daughter wasn’t counting that. She was like, “So these were, like, you know, 110.” They’re not saying biracial folks aren’t authentic, but there were no, no — so that’s me at USF.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s interesting. We’re talking about religious communities in Oakland, the future of religious traditions. We’re joined by a trio of faith leaders, as well as the people working on the Oakland Faith Project, including its founder, Nicolò Sertorio. We’ll be back with more right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. Alexis Madrigal here, joined by Nicolò Sertorio, who is founder, artist, and photographer of the Oakland Faith Project. He’s got his house of worship story, and James Campbell is also Edgar E. Robinson Professor in United States History at Stanford. We’ve got Rabbi Jacqueline Mates-Muchin, who is senior rabbi at Temple Sinai. We’ve got Sundiata Rashid, imam at Lighthouse Mosque and Muslim chaplain at the University of San Francisco, and we’ve got Pastor Michael Wallace of Mount Zion Missionary Baptist Church.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This project began, Nicolò, with the photographs that you were taking, and you actually now have them up in a show at 1500 Broadway, is that right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio:\u003c/strong> Yes. The project exploded in some ways. So I did start with the houses of worship, and then for the second part I partnered with my good friend and colleague, and also a good photographer, J. Michael Tucker, in taking the portraits. And furthermore, we decided to start recording their oral histories.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Later, after doing a solo show at Oakland City Hall, I was offered the opportunity to exhibit in this empty commercial space at 1500 Broadway. It’s a very large, over 2,000-square-foot space that we now have open Monday to Friday.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it’s been really interesting to see the constant flow of people and the conversations that I have encouraged just by people listening to spiritual leaders and discovering new sides of them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And also, I think it’s important that we don’t move away from difficult conversations, but rather confront them full-on. To me, that is actually one of the biggest measures of a successful art project: if people talk about it, good or bad.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. We’ve got a few different folks who have been grappling with these various topics. Some folks with other religious beliefs. One listener writes, “My friends and I believe that nature is my church.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Peggy writes in to say, “I belong to the Buddhist Church of Oakland. The Buddhist teachings make sense to me and are based on gratitude and compassion for all living beings. I also find great community in our church. We have our annual Spring Bazaar and our Obon Festival in early August, and everyone is welcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Our church was founded in 1901 and survived the mass incarceration of Japanese and Japanese Americans during World War II. This year, we are celebrating our 125th anniversary.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, one of the things that strikes me, Pastor Michael Wallace, out of this is just that there’s something to the fact that these institutions have been around for so long. Maybe a hundred years old, 120 years old, whatever it is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> No, that’s true, and that just really is a tribute to them surviving through some more difficult times. If you’ve been around a church or a facility or a house of faith that’s been around for over a hundred years, that means they have seen the pendulum swing from one side to the other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They have lived through the dark days of the Depression. They have lived through the turbulent times of the ’60s. They have lived through the free speech movements of the ’70s and so forth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, as a result, I think it’s a testament to that particular institution or that place of faith that they have been able to weather many storms. But you don’t just weather storms. In order to survive that long, you have to be doing something positive, having a meaningful impact, meeting the needs of the people. And so I think that’s a true testament to their survival.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Especially at a time when there’s so much change in the Bay Area and so much change in Oakland over the last even just 20 years, let alone 120 years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> Oh, absolutely. I mean, just say post-pandemic. Let’s just be in the last five years. It has been really different because, prior to the pandemic, we had a lot of people attending services. During the pandemic, people were not allowed to gather. And then post-pandemic, there was a large falling away.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But now we have this political and social climate that we’re currently existing in that, to me, has more people turning back to places of faith, to their faith, in order to find how to navigate through the challenging and difficult days that we’re facing right now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Let’s bring in a couple of callers here. Let’s go to Art in West Sacramento. Welcome, Art.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Art:\u003c/strong> Hi.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Hi. Hello? Yep, we can hear you. Go ahead.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Art:\u003c/strong> Okay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We could hear you, at least, that is to say. Sorry about that, Art. We’ll try and come back to you. I don’t know what’s going on with the phones this morning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Let’s talk a little bit about one major topic. And maybe, Rabbi Jacqueline, I’ll come to you on this. One of the things that I think has been — I don’t want to put a value judgment on it — but many people have gone to AI chatbots, kind of asking for life advice, even borderline spiritual advice, as people try to figure out what they want and find meaning in life. How do you approach something like that and kind of bring people towards other people?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> I think it’s rough, just because everybody needs to find an outlet that makes the most sense for them. I think the best thing that we can do is to ensure a thriving community and make people aware that we are here if they want to connect.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, I think it is hard to hear sometimes folks say that they don’t go to religious institutions because they think that we’re going to be dogmatic. But you actually don’t know what’s happening unless you give it a try.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So it is a worry in our world now that folks are tending to be a little bit more isolated and not necessarily wanting to make themselves vulnerable, which can happen if you are a part of a community. Then you become a part of the community in all sorts of ways.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But my hope is just that if you’re curious, if you have any desire to see what it is, or even if you’re thinking that we are saying one thing, you know, come in and see if it’s true. And hopefully you’ll be able to find a community that’s meaningful. And if it isn’t meaningful, then that’s okay, too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Jim, one of the things that I think is interesting about some of the research around these things is that our churches have gotten more sorted politically. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Campbell:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, I also want to point out one thing, since you had one of the people who wrote in about the Buddhist Church of Oakland. That group not only survived the experience of Japanese American incarceration during the Second World War, they also survived the interstate road system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s one of the churches that, under eminent domain, was slated for destruction, and the people in it actually sawed it in half, put it on trucks, and moved it, preserving it. So there’s lots of vicissitudes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One of the messages that came out of doing this research for me about religious life in Oakland was just its extraordinary resiliency. But, in any event, on the question you asked, if you go back not very long ago, maybe even to the turn of the century—\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That is to say, the year 2000.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>James Campbell:\u003c/strong> Correct. The people sitting in the pews next to you were just as likely to be Democrats as they were likely to be Republicans. And that is manifestly not the case now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, the process of people moving away from traditional religions and denominations is across the board. It’s happening among evangelicals, mainstream Protestants, Catholics, and so forth, but it does correlate with political affiliation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And one of the things that, to me, is most alarming as someone who grew up in a Christian tradition is the way in which that tradition in our country today is increasingly being appropriated or donned as a mantle by certain kinds of political actors who, I think, make a mockery of the teachings of the person they profess to worship.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I don’t mean to be overly political about this, but I think that’s happened. I think a very large part of the movement away from orthodox religion in recent years — there’s been a dramatic, phenomenal outflow of people, measured in millions nationally, in the wake of the election of 2016, for example.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so that’s clearly one of the things that’s happening now, and I think it’s really unhealthy for our country. You know, part of what the United States always had was a very robust civic life, not just churches, but Rotary clubs and bowling leagues, and the list goes on and on, including Little Leagues, where you routinely interacted with people who voted for different political parties from you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That tradition is eroding in our society, and I think that’s very threatening for our democracy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Let’s see if we can get Art in West Sacramento back here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Art:\u003c/strong> Hey, Art, sorry about that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Hey, no worries.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Art:\u003c/strong> I’m 11th in a family of 15. I was a former Catholic, Seventh-day Adventist, Pentecostal. I was going on the Pentecostal track. I attended the University of California, Davis. I decided that I could not become a Pentecostal minister because they wanted me to preach against my sister being a lesbian. And I said, “She’s not going to hell. It’s not possible. I cannot preach that way.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it turns out the guy that was leading me was actually using me as a young person to paint homes and making money off of me, and just was running a puppy mill later on in life. This guy was being sued by the city that I grew up in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It just is really… And then let’s add to that things like Tammy Faye, Tammy’s magic stories that come out of… And it’s no wonder, in my mind, why we have the kind of leadership we have in the country, in one way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The second part is that, of course, people are going to turn away from things that they can’t have trust in. And to rebuild that trust doesn’t necessarily come down to belief in God or some supernatural power, because people have that. What they don’t believe in is the people who are mediating the process. And I’ll leave it at that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, thank you. Great, great comment. I’m glad you hung with us there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, yeah, Pastor Michael, I think this is, you know, growing up in an era of televangelists myself, and just seeing them on and being like, “Boy, what is this? What does this have to do with the Bible or anything?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> Well, yeah. I mean, without question, the swell of the televangelists over the years, particularly during that era, was enormous because they were on the airwaves 24/7. You could not miss it. And as a result, those individuals became bigger than life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so what you have is a personality-driven church. And anytime you have a personality-driven church, that means it’s centered around the human being that’s, quote-unquote, the personality of that church. And so when that personality is defective or false, then that whole movement shifts to a decline.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so that’s what we’ve seen with some of the great movements, from Jimmy Swaggart to Jim Bakker to many others who were personality-driven.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so what we have to do, and I think our society is demanding this, is shift from personality-driven to either Christ-centered or centered on whomever your higher authority is. But it has to be centered on that person and not the human individual.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Sundiata?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> I mean, I think it’s fine for people. I mean, for me, it’s not one size fits all. So, like, there are probably many Muslims who don’t go to the mosque, but they’re still Muslim, you know what I’m saying? And then there are many Muslims who do go to the mosque.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There might be, you know, like in Oakland, we might have 10 or 11 masajid, or mosques. For me, if Lighthouse isn’t your thing and you want to go to, you know, we always name our mosques after streets, 31st Street or 47th or whatever, I’m always fine with that. I’m like, that’s cool, just do you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, like, for somebody who might have had a tragic experience and got turned away from religion, I’m not going to try to recruit them or try to get them back. They should just do what they’re comfortable with, you know what I’m saying?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, yeah. Let’s bring in Gail in Oakland with a comment here. Welcome, Gail.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gail:\u003c/strong> Kate, thanks, Alexis. Nice to talk to you. I knew you in my former iteration as an Oakland restaurant owner.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I wanted to let listeners know or remind them about the Oakland Interfaith Gospel Choir. I’m a member of the Oakland Interfaith Community Choir, which is one of the sister choirs under the umbrella of OIGC. And OIGC has been around for 41 years, and I’ve been singing with them and recently became a board member because I love it so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s a huge joy in my life, and I think a beautiful reflection of the 23 religions represented in our choir, singing together, learning a lot about Black history, really inspiring joy in our audiences and our performances, and just an incredible reflection of the diversity of Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> It’s kind of like the sonic version of your project, Nicolò.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I would like to take the opportunity to invite you to come and sing at 1500 Broadway.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> Oh, yeah, that’s a good idea, actually. The Oakland Interfaith Choir is absolutely amazing. Minister Terrence Kelly, who has served as the leader of that, they do a tremendous job. It’s a collective collaboration of many faith traditions coming together and unified, pulling in the same direction. And they are really amazing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Gail, the people want to hear you sing, though.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gail:\u003c/strong> That’s not going to happen. It’s totally fine, but I’m going to come to our conference.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I had to try. I had to try. Producer Grace made me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gail:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you had to try. Good try, good try.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> All right, thank you, Gail. Thank you so much. Lots of comments here from listeners who’ve just found their place, which is kind of nice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Rishi on the Discord writes, “I’m so glad to have found my local UCC congregational church of Sunnyvale. Progressive but not zealous, just kind, sensible people. I love my UCC church for the solstice celebration. I also try to practice nonsectarian meditation, a way of life taught by the Buddha. And I volunteered at a local food distribution organization founded by a group of like-minded Indians. As my Hindu saints told me, helping others is doing God’s work.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So many. Here’s another comment. Gina writes, “I grew up attending a couple of different Oakland synagogues, but as a young person, I couldn’t see what relevance most of these ancient Jewish texts and rules could have to my life. And I couldn’t believe in the God I saw represented there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I saw the problems religious conflict had caused throughout history and how religion was used as a reason to cast out certain types of people, and I wanted none of it. But once I had a kid, I decided to keep an open mind and seek out a different approach to bringing Judaism into my life, into my family.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I found an organization called Jewish Gateways, a community based in Albany that doesn’t have its own building but offers a variety of educational programs for families and adults that have changed my perspective on Judaism and helped me see its relevance to living an ethical and meaningful life in community.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Rabbi Jacqueline, how often do you see someone come back to the temple because they want their family to have some of this shared basis of faith?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> I actually think it’s very common that folks, once they have children and want to try to help create a lens and help their kids form their identity, it’s very common for folks to come back and want to put their kids into a religious school and Hebrew school, and to have them have some sense of what it means to be a part of the Jewish community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I’d say it’s actually very common, and I appreciate it. I think that that’s a part of the stage of life that makes a lot of sense, that you’re developing a sense of your home and your household, with traditions and roots. And so it’s very welcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Last one. Alison writes, “I found the Oakland Unitarian Church along with my partner fairly recently. We needed a faith community that was engaged in resistance to the cruelty of our current national politics. It has been wonderful to be engaged with other seekers who have made the commitment to not accept our present circumstances, but rather to fight for justice for all marginalized people. It is a spiritual quest and a way to feel connected to what is good.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We have been talking about religious communities in Oakland and the future of religious traditions. You can go take a look at the Oakland Faith Project’s exhibition at 1500 Broadway.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ve been joined by its founder, Nicolò Sertorio. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicolò Sertorio:\u003c/strong> All right. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And Jim Campbell, Edgar E. Robinson Professor in United States History at Stanford. Thank you. Might have lost him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Rabbi Jacqueline Mates-Muchin at Temple Sinai, thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacqueline Mates-Muchin:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Sundiata Rashid from Lighthouse Mosque, thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sundiata Rashid:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And Michael Wallace, pastor at Mount Zion Missionary Baptist Church in West Oakland. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wallace:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much to all of our callers and listeners. Sorry about those problems on the phones. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned for another hour of \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> ahead with Mina.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Announcer:\u003c/strong> Funds for the production of \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> are provided by the Jenerosity Family Fund and the members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Tuesday, September 29, 2026 at 10 am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Extreme academic workloads and relentless achievement culture are driving a youth mental health crisis in classrooms nationwide — especially among students trying to get into top colleges. That’s according to Stuart Slavin, a pediatrician who researches how to improve student mental health and the author of “The Success Trap.” We’ll hear from Slavin, a former school administrator and a high school journalist about how to escape “The Success Trap” and how parents can help their kids navigate this pressure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin, \u003c/strong>pediatrician, medical educator, researcher; author, \u003cem>The Success Trap: How the Pressure to Stand Out Is Fueling Anxiety, Depression, and Burnout in Teens—And the Fundamental Fix They Deserve\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota,\u003c/strong> student journalist, Los Altos High School – published an article in May in student paper detailing the pressures students face\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Chris Funk,\u003c/strong> former superintendent, Dublin Unified School District – initiated policy limiting the number of AP/honors courses students can take yearly\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Anxiety, depression, and burnout are increasingly common among high school students, especially these days as they apply to top colleges. Pediatrician Stuart Slavin says the phenomenon that was largely concentrated in affluent neighborhoods two decades ago has spread like a contagion, infecting a wider socioeconomic swath. And far more than smartphones and social media are the culprits. Slavin says it’s the pressure cooker of academic and extracurricular demands: performance expectations from teachers, coaches, parents, and the students themselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And this hour, we hear from a student, a school administrator, and from Slavin, whose new book is called \u003cem>The Success Trap\u003c/em>. And listeners, if this sounds familiar to you, give us a call at 866-733-6786. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786. Are you a student, a recent graduate, a parent of a student? How has academic pressure affected you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’d also like to welcome to the program now Los Altos High School senior Ananya Kota. Ananya, welcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And of course, Stuart Slavin, pediatrician, medical educator and researcher, and author of \u003cem>The Success Trap\u003c/em>. Stuart, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much, Mina. Pleasure to be here with you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Ananya, I’ll start with you. You wrote a piece for your student paper in May about the pressure a student faced. So tell me, what made you write the piece?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> Yeah, of course. So I’ve always kind of been aware of the academic pressure that was in the Bay Area, and generally I felt that it manifested differently in different schools. And I was really curious how the academic pressure affected Los Altos High School in particular.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, I was kind of mulling it over, and while I was thinking about it, unfortunately, a student had committed suicide in one of our school districts nearby, and I think that kind of made me realize just how horrible the academic pressure could be. And I really wanted to understand by speaking to students and getting their experiences, speaking to teachers and understanding how does it affect our school particularly, and why do students feel the need to overperform so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So how were you seeing it manifest? How was it affecting you and your peers?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> I honestly primarily saw it manifest within the student community itself. So, when I started writing the article, I had to — it was a little difficult, honestly — turn myself into an observer of a community I was already so integrated in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I was constantly observing and seeing the interactions between students, where students should be like, “Oh, I just got a B on this test. I’m going to fail.” And I was just thinking in the back of my head, like, no, you’re not going to fail. I mean, the standard is so high, and students are making very casual comments that kind of inflate that standard.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I just think, like, a lot of the times when we get, for example, grades back, or there’s the SAT or the ACT, AP scores, it’s always the highest standard that’s expected among students. If students don’t get a five on their AP exam, they’re automatically disappointed and assume that they’re failing. If they get a B, they’re automatically panicked and assuming, “I’m failing.” Anything less than the standard feels like failing to a lot of the students. That’s sort of the impression that I got while observing my community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Did you find that people were talking about having trouble sleeping, that they were, you know, experiencing some degree of not feeling like they were good enough?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> Definitely. It’s very common for me to hear, like, “Oh, I only got like three hours of sleep. I was studying for this test,” or, “Oh, I barely slept yesterday.” And it feels very normal. But when I think about it objectively, I’m just like, that’s not healthy at all. Like, you should be getting sleep. You should be eating well. But all these basic things are being sacrificed for studying and getting those perfect grades.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I do think that students have placed the entirety of their self-worth on their grades and these numbers and these letters, and you can really see how it affects their mindset, how it affects the basic care they do for themselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I was also struck from the outset that you talked about the Bay Area, how things were specific to the Bay Area in your high school. Tell me about how you think your community plays a role in the pressure that these students feel.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> Of course. So when I was doing research for the article, I was drawn to the city and the Silicon Valley in particular because I noticed that in the Silicon Valley, in the Bay Area, there’s a lot of upper-class people who have very high median incomes. And I thought perhaps that contributed because the standard of success in the Bay Area in particular is very inflated.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s like a tech hub. We see all these successful companies, these successful tech companies. And when students see that, I think they think that’s the standard of success, that’s a baseline level of success. When you’re surrounded by so much success and so much opportunity, if you don’t take that or if you don’t meet that, it can feel automatically like failure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so I think there really is, like, it’s amazing to live here in Silicon Valley and have so much opportunity at your fingertips, but with that opportunity comes like an unsaid sort of expectation to meet all of that and have to achieve that, and everyone else is trying to do the exact same thing as you are.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I was struck by this line in your piece where you say, “Even as I write this article and acknowledge these issues, the idea of breaking away from the culture is scary.” Talk about that. It’s hard even as you’re aware of it, right, to be able to adopt, you know, things that might reduce the pressure yourself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I would say personally I, of course, am in the student community and I feel those pressures firsthand. I think that I also value my academics a lot, and it sometimes feels like, you know, if I get anything less than an A, I’m automatically, like, extremely upset at myself. And I think, like, while perhaps I understand, like, objectively it’s not the end of the world, after you’re just surrounded by that pressure for so many years, it kind of becomes your norm.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You automatically feel those before you can really catch yourself and realize, hey, no, I’m not a failure. I’m feeling I’m gonna fail because I got a B in a class.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I do think that the first step to breaking away, as I said, from these expectations is acknowledgement because it is such a deep-rooted issue that it doesn’t even start in high school. It starts from when your academic journey begins in middle school. You’re taught that, like, academics are the be-all and end-all, and that doesn’t end in high school. It doesn’t — like, and when you go to college, I think when you grow up around that environment, it sticks with you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Would you say it was middle school where you started to feel it, or did you even feel it as early as elementary?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> I would say, like, personally, it didn’t really affect me until high school, but I don’t think that’s the case at all for my peers, because I did see my peers very frequently panicking over their grades.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when I entered as a freshman in high school, I could already see that academic pressure around, and I think that — I don’t think it all of a sudden manifested in the first couple months of freshman year. I think it had been there since middle school, and that’s why so many freshmen were already anxious about their grades.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Stuart, Ananya mentions acknowledgement, and that’s what you’re trying to do, acknowledge this issue. And I imagine what she’s saying also sounds familiar to you after serving more than 18,000 teenagers in some 18 high schools, I understand, including in California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yes, absolutely. The first schools that I looked at were all in the Bay Area. And I have to say, Ananya really encapsulated so beautifully, or eloquently, the challenges kids are facing these days and the pressure-cooker environment that they’re facing in communities across this country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And even your own child was not immune, right? You share a very relatable experience of her feeling like she couldn’t stop to eat dinner because of all the homework she had and bursting into tears.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, this really started me on this journey. So I’m a pediatrician, and I was watching my daughters in a high school that was reputedly kind of the most progressive school in the St. Louis region, but the amounts of homework and academic pressure they were facing was just extraordinary.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so that really launched me on this journey to look at this issue and really raise awareness about it, because I think it could almost be viewed as a problem hiding in plain sight, that we’re so hyper-focused on phones and screens as a source of the adolescent mental health crisis. I have deep concerns about those, but I think it’s led us to kind of ignore this problem, which I think Ananya has really described.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, how do you know that what your daughter was expressing, or what you see happening around you, is not, you know, temporary stress or momentary drama, but a bigger, more serious structural problem?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Well, there are a couple of layers to that that I would say. One is, if your child as an adolescent suffers from depression or anxiety, it markedly increases their likelihood of having those mental health problems as adults.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the other that Ananya kind of alluded to is there are these kind of mindsets. I’ll describe a couple of them. One is maladaptive perfectionism that’s been on the rise for 35 years, where an A-minus or a B isn’t good enough and it feels just terrible. Another is performance as identity. It’s not that you got the score, it’s you are that score.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Those don’t disappear. Kids are internalizing these and then carrying them into adulthood in ways that then can contribute to their distress later as young adults and on into adulthood.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And you have seen this as widespread. Like, what do the stats tell you, and also widening? I quoted you saying that you were also seeing this in much broader economic swaths and also happening younger even than high school. Can you help us understand sort of the scope of what you’re seeing?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the scope I describe in a few ways. I mean, I have done research then in California and Missouri, and also in Ohio. And I also had the opportunity over the last eight years or so in my job to travel the country and just talk to families and talk to kids.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it became very clear that what used to be, I think, really in very affluent communities and on both coasts has spread like wildfire really across the country. And I think to a great degree, it’s understandably kind of — it is driven by, I think, a sense of economic insecurity. A sense that the divide between the haves and the have-nots is growing and that to have a middle-class existence is increasingly difficult.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So a lot of this, I think, is well-intended efforts to launch kids to success, which sadly I don’t think are actually even achieving that goal.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Hmm. Actually, this Discord user Nicole writes — no, well, writes: “This extreme academic pressure is a symptom of our growing inequality.” And I think you have some thoughts on that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re coming up on a break, though, so let me remind listeners that we are talking with Stuart Slavin, a pediatrician and medical educator and researcher and author of the new book \u003cem>The Success Trap\u003c/em>, and Ananya Kota, a student journalist at Los Altos High School.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And with you, are you a high school student or recent graduate? How did academic pressure affect your mental health? If you’re the parent of an adolescent, have you noticed symptoms of anxiety or depression in your child? What did you find helped relieve the stress that comes with high school or college applications? 866-733-6786 is the number.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Stay with us. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. We’re talking this hour about the increasing pressure students are facing and feeling in high school. We’re talking about it with Stuart Slavin, who’s written a new book called \u003cem>The Success Trap: How the Pressure to Stand Out Is Fueling Anxiety, Depression, and Burnout in Teens and the Fundamental Fix They Deserve\u003c/em>. He’s a pediatrician and researcher.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ananya Kota is also with us, a student journalist at Los Altos High School, who published a piece in May in her student paper detailing the pressure students face there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you are joining us at the email address \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, listeners on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum. Tell us if you are a student or a parent of a student and you’ve noticed these types of academic pressures and their effect on students’ mental health.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Are you a teacher or administrator? Are there policies or changes you’ve made at your school that you have found helped improve student mental health? Or what did you find students or parents helped relieve the stress that comes with high school, college admissions and applications, and also with the demands of extracurricular activities?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Listener on Discord writes, “A student’s fear of disappointing their parents often creates more stress than direct parental pressure.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One of the things you were saying, Stuart, was just how much there is concern among parents about economic anxiety and growing inequality as well driving this. What more would you add to what you feel like is leading students to what you’ve described as really unprecedented levels of stress and anxiety?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> You know, I think one way to look at that, Mina, is looking at the survey that we used in these 18 schools, and we asked students to rate 35 different stressors in their life to see how big of a stress factor they were.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And these included things like school-related, obviously, but boyfriend, girlfriend, family issues, health issues, bullying, cyberbullying, social media. And the thing that really struck me is that in every one of the 18 schools, the top-rated stressors, the biggest stressors in kids’ lives, was school- and achievement-related.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And just to add to that point of your really perceptive learner, who said pressure — pressure to not disappoint parents. In our survey, it was actually ranked higher as a greater stressor than direct pressure from parents. So even as parents, if we’re not putting that direct pressure on them, they know our values and sometimes react to those.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The last thing I’ll say about that, which is true, the number one or number two stressor that was cited by kids in every single school was pressure from self. So what they’re doing is reacting to this pressure-cooker environment and then absorbing all of this, and it’s really creating these mindsets that they’re again going to carry with them to adulthood and contribute to future distress as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, I want to bring into the conversation now a former administrator of the California school district, Dublin Unified, Chris Funk. Chris, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Funk:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So your district is trying something new, and I know you just left as an administrator in the summer, but you really set the stage for this experiment, essentially. What are you trying to do in Dublin?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Funk:\u003c/strong> I just retired in June after 36 years in public education, and the majority of that spent between either two K-12 districts and one high school district.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It was clear to me that this zero-sum race to the top to get to the best colleges was causing students to have excessive academic course loading that seemed like they were just chasing that grade point average, that boost that you get by taking an honors or Advanced Placement course, as opposed to for the love of learning, the engagement of really trying to be masterful of the content that you’re learning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so in Dublin last year, the board passed a resolution that limited the number of courses, honors and Advanced Placement courses, that a student could take in a single year as well as across their four years. So they could take up to four classes combined, honors and AP, in a single year, and up to 11 across their four-year high school time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And what are you hoping the effect of this change will be?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Funk:\u003c/strong> Well, we’re trying to promote more balance, student well-being and a healthier school culture. Because at all three of my systems that I’ve been a part of, there has been mental health has been kind of that stigma. That stigma, I think, has been reduced now after COVID, and now it becomes an expectation that wellness, mental health, is such an important, vital part of everyone’s life, not just high school students, grownups also.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so we’re just trying to focus on creating a more healthy environment, change that mindset that Dr. Slavin has been talking about. And also focus on all the other amazing aspects of being an adolescent in high school, whether it’s athletics, whether it is extracurricular activities like band and choir and drama and dance, all the amazing things that happen in high school, and less focus on just the academic course loading.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And what was the reaction to this decision to limit the number of AP classes offered? And similarly, Discord user Jeff writes, “Did you get pushback from families who worried the AP class limit would disadvantage their kids in college admissions?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Funk:\u003c/strong> Well, I had a unanimous decision by my board, and my board represents the entire district. So that’s a good sign. And yes, there’s always going to be some pushback on any policy that you implement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I believe the pushback was minor compared to the larger conversation we had around grading, because we did change our grading policy prior to the resolution on limiting AP courses. But most of it was around the fact that families and students felt like they were going to be put at a disadvantage, and just really not understanding the academic entrance requirements into colleges and universities, the idea of what is the official school profile, that you’re really just competing against your own peers at your school and you’re not competing against other schools across the nation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the reality is that you can get to the very best colleges without having to overload on your course taking. So it’s really about education.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And universities, they do know or have profiles on high schools, right, about how many APs are offered there, so they recognize that if a student is taking a certain number that may be less than another district, it’s just because that district simply didn’t offer that many of them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Funk:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. That’s exactly it. That is why each school and each district has their school profile.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the other piece is that there is this idea that the more classes I take, the better chance I have of getting into this college. And the reality is every college, every university recalculates the GPA, and they have the base level, 22 courses, 24 courses that they actually take the GPA of. So if you take 30 courses, six of those courses, depending on which college or university you apply for, aren’t even going to count because they’re not going to calculate that in your GPA.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so what we’re trying to create in Dublin was this concept of focus on the areas that you love, do the very best and master those areas. Focus on the other aspects of being an adolescent and what colleges look for in terms of your extracurricular activities, your community service, and all being that whole child. It has been lost with this race to the top.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It’s very interesting because I hear echoes in what Chris Funk is saying with what you’ve said about, maybe we have lost our understanding of what successful means.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think that’s exactly right, and I have to say first, kudos to you, Chris, and your board for taking these actions. I think a lot of schools have been really reluctant to take these kind of measures.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One of the key things, I think, for listeners to really understand is that I think there’s this idea that if you back off, the performance is going to drop.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A couple of things I would say to counter that: In every school I looked at, kids reported on average getting six and a half hours of sleep per night. The adolescent brain needs eight to ten, so at that level they’re cognitively and emotionally compromised.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then the other piece that I think is really important stems from my work with medical students, in which we found high rates of depression and anxiety, reduced pressure, reduced demands, and not only did their mental health improve dramatically, their performance improved as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think there’s kind of this false narrative that if we back off, if we reduce the pressure, that somehow performance is going to drop and they aren’t going to be as competitive. And I think that’s just false.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Ananya, though, I was struck by a Chronicle piece that covered what Dublin was doing, and it quoted a student, or just a recent graduate from Dublin, as saying that students are just going to find other ways to stand out if they can’t stand out based on the number of AP courses they’ve taken.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What do you think about that? Do you think that’s likely true?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> I think partially yes, just because, I mean, the AP cap has also been discussed among our districts, and I certainly did hear a lot of pushback from my peers at the idea of being limited about the number of APs. I frankly think some of them find it scary.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there is also, I know you mentioned it before, like a stigma around extracurriculars, how many you need to take, how they need to stand out. And I think some of that pressure will shift.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But also I do think academics and extracurriculars are two very separate entities, and I do think limiting the number of APs can potentially really help students focus academically and really take the classes they’re passionate about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I do unfortunately think that it won’t eliminate the pressure and they’ll still feel stressed about it. So I think it will help them, but that pressure might unfortunately feel more prominent just because there’s that underlying worry that if I’m not taking enough AP classes, am I going to be competitive, or do I need to make up for this in my extracurriculars?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think it honestly completely kind of depends on the student and how they receive that. But yeah, I think they can be received in multiple ways.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me go to caller Naomi in Berkeley. Naomi, go ahead, you’re on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> Hi, my students graduated from Berkeley High in 2023 and 2025. And I think the pressure comes not only from the academic achievements, but the community and the parents of friends and the peers themselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>My kids were admitted to fine, decent state and UC schools. And they heard comments from parents at parties or from their peers that they would never allow their kids to apply to that school, or they would never go to that school as only their backup school, and I found that to be, as a parent, to be very distressing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>My kids were fine students. They had A’s and B’s. I did not allow them, or do not encourage them, to max out their APs. They had, you know, they were varsity athletes, and still, by their peers and the parents in our community, they heard very negative comments, and it was very hurtful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Naomi, thank you for sharing that. Stuart, what have you found are sort of the most common or problematic ways that parents in communities inadvertently add pressure to kids?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so back to that point that pressure to not disappoint parents, even if you’re not putting that direct pressure on, they may know your values by, you know, when you’re talking to friends and somebody mentions that their child is going to Harvard or Stanford, etc., and they just light up. The kids can know your value.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I think what your caller also really alludes to is that this is widespread in the culture, and I think in some ways it requires some courage on the part of parents and kids to say, no, I’m not going to be influenced and affected by that. I have a sense of my self-worth as a human being that isn’t tied to going to the most, you know, selective, prestigious college possible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Jane writes, “My 18-year-old has dealt with depression and anxiety and expresses desire to relieve their stress with drugs and alcohol. I feel like saying, well, just don’t do that. But just like abstinence, I know saying just say no is unrealistic. How would you suggest talking to a young adult about drugs and alcohol and moderation in a world filled with anxiety?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it sounds like if they’re using it to relieve anxiety, Stuart.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Oh, it’s a very difficult situation, I feel, for that person, and I think that’s kind of the downstream consequences of having a child who’s living in such a pressurized environment as an adolescent that they enter young adulthood really at risk.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in terms of how to talk to them, I guess, you know, I think with a supportive approach, without a judgmental approach, and ideally encouraging them with you to seek care from a health professional of some kind.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But it is, I think, these are the kind of hidden consequences of what may happen if our kids do feel such enormous pressure and demands as they’re in their early development.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Laura writes, “How do we encourage a kid to work and do well, to put in the time to understand the schoolwork without putting dangerous pressures on them?” Stuart.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I guess what I would say is one of the things that I think is important is to focus less. We have a tendency — how’d that test go? What kind of scores are you getting? How’s your grade point average?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And these electronic dashboards, I think, have become a real problem, where it’s not just kids checking them furiously, but parents are as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think it’s vitally important, it’s just vitally important, for parents to acknowledge and celebrate other identities than their kids’ academic performance: their humor, their creativity, their kindness, their ability to work with others. There are so many things that we need to recognize in our kids that I think get lost in our daily conversations of left cars.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Talk about where it can lead. You mentioned the phenomenon of crashing out. What is that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Oh, crashing out, I think, Ananya, I’d love to hear what she says, where, you know, what looks like a minor setback to anybody else, you know, if anybody else looks at somebody who gets an A-minus or a B-plus, and, you know, the kid thinks it’s a failure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s not a failure, but that’s what it feels like. And that’s what these mindsets do. You know, you have the discomfort of a less-than-ideal performance. But the story, the narrative you add to it, that you attach to it, can make the pain much, much worse.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think there are skills that kids can easily learn and that parents can use. Tell them and help them understand these are just stories you’re telling yourself that really aren’t accurate and are harmful. And helping kids change those thought processes, I think, could be incredibly helpful on their journey to adulthood.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And you write that they manifest as essentially an acute cognitive and emotional breakdown, right? From explosive outbursts to actually emotional withdrawal.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think parents just can’t really even comprehend. Again, it’s hard for them to understand why this, what looks like a minor setback, um, feels so profoundly painful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And again, I think it’s what Ananya had described is this culture that people live in, and it’s not just parents, it’s just, you know, teachers, coaches, et cetera, peers that are also creating this environment that is profound.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And again, as you said, the crashing out can be just breakdowns, perseverative thinking where they just can’t stop thinking about this problem. You know, meltdowns, tears, or anger as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Ananya, we’re coming up on a break, but you wrote about a friend distancing themselves from your friend group for months. How were you able to reach out?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> I noticed it initially because she stopped coming to sit with lunch with us, and she stopped talking in our group chats. And I don’t think the pressure she felt was purposeful, I think, because our friends are very aware of the academic pressure, but a lot of them are extremely successful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>All my friends are wonderful. I have a friend that’s going to Stanford and another one is going to Barnard. And I think even just being around such immensely successful people can make you feel, “I’m not doing enough.” And I think that’s what she felt.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it’s exactly what he described, the emotional withdrawal. That was the aspect that she was facing. And it really manifested in, not in necessarily like outward outburst, but inward.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the increasing academic pressures on high school students today. More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. We’re talking this hour with Los Altos High School senior Ananya Kota, former superintendent of Dublin Unified School District, Chris Funk, and pediatrician, researcher and author of the new book \u003cem>The Success Trap\u003c/em>, Stuart Slavin, about how to address the increasing anxiety, depression and burnout that students are experiencing as a result of increased parental and social expectations and the desire to stand out in a college admissions process that seems to be demanding more AP courses and extracurriculars.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Join the conversation with your own experiences and questions about how to address this at 866-733-6786, at the email address \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. You can find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, and Instagram. We’re at KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Let me go to AJ in Mountain View. Hi, AJ, you’re on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> Hi, thanks for taking me on. I actually wanted to share a comment with regards to the pressure even though that comes from extracurricular activities that contribute to, that are important for college.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I actually know this family. I mean, the child is all of 10 years old at this point. He’s into diving. There’s math class, there’s — I had no class, but of others, but what stood out for me was when the parent actually created a website, took some pictures, printed a calendar, and sold them to fund an NGO.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And all of this to support his future college admissions. My concern was when a child is all of 10, I believe it’s going to be under 10 more years before he enters, and the pressure is already on. And this is in Los Altos, so I understand. I hear what Ananya is actually talking about. I actually see it around me and my neighbors.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Concerning. Well, AJ, thanks so much for sharing that. Stuart, would love to get your reactions to what AJ is describing, and it also seems to underscore the earlier point that you are seeing this younger and younger.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> When I first started writing this book, and much of the research that supports it was really focused on high school students. But as I was talking to more people and I heard more and more stories of this kind of behavior, I think what it’s reflective of is a phenomenon called intensive parenting, where parents feel enormous social pressure to have their children in a lot of enrichment activities that increasingly have become much more intensive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The old days of just, like, you know, rec-league baseball has been replaced by club sports that go year-round, involve travel, sometimes enormous pressure and sense of competition on the kids. So, yeah, you have to wonder and worry about the impact on, goodness, a 10-year-old child. And it starts earlier.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’ve talked to parents of five- and six-year-olds. A quick story, which is a mom who told me, another mom said, “Do you have a soccer coach for your six-year-old?” And she said, “No.” “Well, he’s never gonna get into the travel team.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think those pressures are widespread and they’re starting earlier and earlier.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> One of the things you’ve warned against, Stuart, is parent as problem solver, the increasing role they take in that. What do you see as the dangers and how can they pull back?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I have to admit I was a problem solver in many ways as a parent, and I think there’s a tendency for us to jump in when your kids are struggling. And while that’s important and at times to do, I think what you have to recognize is that if you jump in too quickly and intervene too aggressively, it has unintended consequences of reducing their own self-confidence in dealing with their problems, undermining their ability potentially to deal with challenges in the future.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, in many ways, we should be viewing adolescents as this kind of training ground for adulthood, and they need practice in working through and solving their problems as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So you should be there to support. Don’t abandon your kids, but don’t fall into the tendency to jump in too quickly to try to rescue and solve problems.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Scott in Sacramento writes, “Does involvement in extracurricular activities like after-school sports or clubs help relieve that stress of everyday student lives, or does it just compound it? As a parent, I feel that it would relieve it, but I didn’t have social media and other modern-day pressures that kids experience nowadays.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What do you think, Ananya? Do you think that extracurriculars — do you find them to be a place of relief or do you find them to be added stress?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> I think it can be both. Honestly, personally, an extracurricular I find that stress relieving, as I do cross-country, and it’s so nice to have a dedicated time period where I can just exercise. And I know it’s a really good medium of stress relief. So that’s an example of one extracurricular that I think is stress relief.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But also, in turn, I think in the back of my head, “Oh, this is taking a couple hours out of my day, so when am I going to do homework? When am I going to do this? When do I do that?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think it’s a mix of both, and the key to finding an extracurricular that can do stress relief is just time management, knowing that, oh, if I’m gonna do this sport, can I have a time where I can do this other extracurricular or take the time to do homework this other time period?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So don’t cram like seven extracurriculars into one day, because I think that starts to make it more of a pressure than a stress relief. But I think if you can find the key number of extracurriculars you genuinely enjoy, it can definitely be a stress relief.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Have you found helpful, Ananya, as a high school student deep in this, right? Like strategies or things that you have found helped work for you in terms of relieving the stress and pressure?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> I think the biggest thing is just being very aware of my limits as a student. I think, like, obviously being surrounded by so much pressure, it’s definitely affected me to the point where, like, sometimes I’ll find myself being like, “Oh, I should have taken that AP class,” even if it’s like not a class I’m necessarily, like, very passionate about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I think just having a support group around you, friends who don’t encourage, like, the academic pressure or don’t say things like, “Oh, you didn’t get an A on that test. Well, what are you doing?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think being very aware of your own limits and also communicating that to your peers, especially to your parents, as they’re your main support, can really help with developing an understanding of, this is what I can do and I’m going to stick with it because I don’t want to burn out and I don’t want to fall down that rabbit hole of I’m not doing enough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Chris, I’m curious what you’ve observed with regard to, you know, parents who seem to have a healthy relationship with their kids’ success levels.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Funk:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you see it as has been mentioned. It starts younger and younger. But in terms of the academics, one of the key things or guidelines that happens — measure points — is in middle school math acceleration.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I can’t tell you, in all three of my school districts that I was in in 36 years, the goal to take calculus by your junior or even your sophomore year is the new trend. And you start ninth grade in Algebra 2, which is just completely a mindset that has to be changed, because every student that really wants to take calculus can get there in four years of high school math.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For some, it might require taking a summer course or a bridge course. But for most students, if they are applicable to taking calculus, they’ll be able to do it. But to have kids start to accelerate, taking algebra and geometry in middle school, I think that is way too much pressure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, same families that put their kids in math acceleration, that also put them in academic classes in the summertime. You know, summertime really should be that time to explore other passions that you have. Just like with teachers, you’ve got to recharge your battery, because the school year is not a sprint, it’s a marathon.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And there are certain stages throughout the year, October, December, end of February, that kids hit the wall, teachers hit the wall. And you got to be able to have that well-groundedness that’s important.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think one other aspect that we haven’t really talked about is that this policy is not a silver bullet. It’s to address one aspect of the academic stress. But grading is a huge discussion that may be for another day, but we have kids that are just chasing points.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that grading actually starts even in elementary school, where they don’t normally have letter grades. But this extra credit, chasing that extra credit, bringing in paper towel dispensers, bringing in hand cleanser for extra points — all that does is boost your grade, but doesn’t necessarily translate, or certainly doesn’t translate, to mastery of that content.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When you’re only chasing points, that’s another stressor on kids that the grading policy has to be addressed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Stuart, you have a whole section about how many of the kids you spoke with have painted a picture of a lack of joy in their lives, which I really feel like is what Chris has been getting to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it is. I think that was the thing that was most striking to me. And one thing I’ll add on to a comment that Ananya made about cross-country: I think she seems to be approaching it in a healthy way, but I’ve talked to people, and this was one of the things that surprised me as I talked to kids, is that the perfectionism they had in their academics was also there in their extracurriculars.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So if they had a disappointing cross-country time, they would just beat up on themselves and ruminate on this thought for just forever. So, this is a deep problem that I think kind of is — infiltrates, you know, all aspects of their life. Everything can become a competition.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when everything’s a competition, like the idea of just fun and joy disappears.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And last thing I think I would say about that that’s especially true: It isn’t the activities themselves that are a problem. It’s the nature of the activities. There’s great research that shows that it’s not the amount of time you spend in these, but it’s how competitive, how pressured, how controlled by adults is it. Those are the things that seem to correlate with adverse mental health outcomes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think we do need to, like, let’s bring some joy and fun back into the lives of our kids.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Do you see the turn to smartphones and screens or social media in part as a symptom of this lack of joy?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> I think that’s such a good question, and I think how I’d answer that is, yeah, and brief, yes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think one of the things that’s really striking to me about it is that our approach largely is, you know, kind of pushing these companies to change their algorithms, et cetera. That’s great. But a lot of it’s like prohibition, like let’s take your phones when you walk in the door at school, et cetera, et cetera.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think we need to be working on the other side of the engagement. I think kids are turning to these devices because in many ways their virtual lives are more interesting and pleasant than their real ones.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So one of the ways we maybe can work to get kids off their screens is actually to make their real lives more pleasant, more joyful, more enjoyable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me remind listeners, you are listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. I’m going to caller Jonathan in San Francisco. Go ahead, Jonathan. You’re on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> I mean, I think this is a great topic that you guys have covered in a very well-rounded way. As a parent of a freshman and a seventh grader, I’m kind of in the middle of seeing a lot of this happening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think there’s kind of a bifurcated set of forces that haven’t entirely been hit on yet on both sides of the collegiate experience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On the high school side, more and more, as parents, we keep hearing, and the kids you’re hearing, but straight A is kind of the entry level, the bare minimum of what you need to get accepted at the top colleges. You need to have published papers. You need to be a part of research projects at reputable institutions. They’re not even just looking at the AP courses you took, they’re looking at how many AP courses did your high school offer? And then what percentage of those did you take?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so those pressures really mount on the kids because I hear the kids talking about it a lot and comparing their strategies for getting into these sought-after schools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then on the other side of the collegiate experience, looking at where AI is going, I hear kids talking, a lot of my kids’ friends talking about, we’re worried that there’s not gonna be as many jobs. We’re hearing, you know, people that have graduated into college are now struggling to find work. And it’s a small percentage, but it’s still enough that it’s a part of the conversation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so they’re worried that they have to work even harder to achieve even more to make sure that they’ll have a shot at what’s going to be left over after that unknown piece takes a bite out of the workforce.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think those two forces are kind of creating or adding to that pressure cooker as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Jonathan, thanks for saying that. Yeah, Chris, I mean, I’m wondering if you see, you know, Stuart is talking about worries of insufficiency, right? Essentially that the child is, you know, not — is going to have to face a very difficult economic situation and so on. But the other thing is, is this sense — I’m wondering if you’re seeing that is adding to it — that we’re also sort of living under threat, like the threat of climate change or dangerous AI agents, right, among other things, that are driving parents to put a lot of pressure on their teens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Funk:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think those are all very valid points. And the reality is the society that I grew up in, and even my two older sons who are in their late 20s, early 30s, things have changed just since COVID.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the amount of pressure that’s out there on society, whether it’s the national — the way we communicate with each other nationally started stemming from the very top, the White House, to all these other pressures, as you mentioned, climate change, AI, do I wanna take on student debt and maybe not even find a job that will pay that student debt off in five to 10 years, but it’ll be 20 to 25, 30 years of student debt.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, you know, there’s always the exception to the rule. There are certain kids that just by their nature and their intelligence and what have you, they’re going to go — they want to go to MIT, they want to go to Stanford, they’re gonna go to Stanford because they’re just exceptional.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I just think trying to get to the very top colleges is extremely overrated for the majority of students. It’s the college experience that is, just like the high school experience is what’s amazing. And you can go to beautiful, wonderful colleges, get a great education and not have that student debt that some are chasing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, yeah, maybe I just live in an old world, but one of the issues that we face and we intentionally try to create time for our kids is kids don’t play with their friends in the neighborhood anymore. You don’t go down to the local park and play baseball on the weekend, pick-up baseball in the summertime, because kids are so scheduled now by their families, by their parents, or they’re traveling so much to get to whatever the competition may be. It could be a chess tournament, it could be athletics.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s just not enough downtime to allow kids to be kids and to allow them to be creative. Creativity has just fallen off the board, especially in school.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And it doesn’t even sound like, Stuart, that once the kid achieves a top college placement that the issues go away.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, they don’t. And I think one of the things, especially if they’ve suffered with depression or anxiety along the way, parents need to keep in mind that if you look at the causes of kids dropping out from college, cost is a big one. But mental health and emotional challenges are four times more likely than lack of academic preparation leading to kids dropping out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so I think what Chris said is really important. I think we’ve really focused too much on that you have to go to the best college possible or the most selective. It isn’t — you shouldn’t even say best college, most selective, highly prestigious, or your life will be compromised. And I think that’s just a false narrative.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There are many great colleges across this country that students can thrive in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It’s the end of the hour, but what’s the good news, Stuart? I noted in your book that you have said that not a single one of the mindsets and the situations that these kids find themselves in is fixed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think that what I would end with is absolutely so that kids can learn how to manage these mindsets in ways that cause less distress.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I’m encouraged by stories like Chris, where there are communities that are saying, this is not okay. We need to change what we’re doing for our kids, and the changes that need to be made I don’t think have to be revolutionary or too expensive in terms of school demands and culture.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Stuart Slavin, the book is \u003cem>The Success Trap\u003c/em>. Ananya Kota, Los Altos High School senior. Chris Funk, former superintendent of Dublin Unified. Thanks to all of you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thank you, listeners. Thank you, Jeremy Garza, for producing this segment. You’ve been listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Announcer:\u003c/strong> Funds for the production of \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> are provided by the Jenerosity Family Fund and the members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Extreme academic workloads and relentless achievement culture are driving a youth mental health crisis in classrooms nationwide — especially among students trying to get into top colleges. That’s according to Stuart Slavin, a pediatrician who researches how to improve student mental health and the author of “The Success Trap.” We’ll hear from Slavin, a former school administrator and a high school journalist about how to escape “The Success Trap” and how parents can help their kids navigate this pressure.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Anxiety, depression, and burnout are increasingly common among high school students, especially these days as they apply to top colleges. Pediatrician Stuart Slavin says the phenomenon that was largely concentrated in affluent neighborhoods two decades ago has spread like a contagion, infecting a wider socioeconomic swath. And far more than smartphones and social media are the culprits. Slavin says it’s the pressure cooker of academic and extracurricular demands: performance expectations from teachers, coaches, parents, and the students themselves.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Anxiety, depression, and burnout are increasingly common among high school students, especially these days as they apply to top colleges. Pediatrician Stuart Slavin says the phenomenon that was largely concentrated in affluent neighborhoods two decades ago has spread like a contagion, infecting a wider socioeconomic swath. And far more than smartphones and social media are the culprits. Slavin says it’s the pressure cooker of academic and extracurricular demands: performance expectations from teachers, coaches, parents, and the students themselves.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And this hour, we hear from a student, a school administrator, and from Slavin, whose new book is called \u003cem>The Success Trap\u003c/em>. And listeners, if this sounds familiar to you, give us a call at 866-733-6786. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786. Are you a student, a recent graduate, a parent of a student? How has academic pressure affected you?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And this hour, we hear from a student, a school administrator, and from Slavin, whose new book is called \u003cem>The Success Trap\u003c/em>. And listeners, if this sounds familiar to you, give us a call at 866-733-6786. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786. Are you a student, a recent graduate, a parent of a student? How has academic pressure affected you?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’d also like to welcome to the program now Los Altos High School senior Ananya Kota. Ananya, welcome.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And of course, Stuart Slavin, pediatrician, medical educator and researcher, and author of \u003cem>The Success Trap\u003c/em>. Stuart, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And of course, Stuart Slavin, pediatrician, medical educator and researcher, and author of \u003cem>The Success Trap\u003c/em>. Stuart, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much, Mina. Pleasure to be here with you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Ananya, I’ll start with you. You wrote a piece for your student paper in May about the pressure a student faced. So tell me, what made you write the piece?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> Yeah, of course. So I’ve always kind of been aware of the academic pressure that was in the Bay Area, and generally I felt that it manifested differently in different schools. And I was really curious how the academic pressure affected Los Altos High School in particular.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> Yeah, of course. So I’ve always kind of been aware of the academic pressure that was in the Bay Area, and generally I felt that it manifested differently in different schools. And I was really curious how the academic pressure affected Los Altos High School in particular.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, I was kind of mulling it over, and while I was thinking about it, unfortunately, a student had committed suicide in one of our school districts nearby, and I think that kind of made me realize just how horrible the academic pressure could be. And I really wanted to understand by speaking to students and getting their experiences, speaking to teachers and understanding how does it affect our school particularly, and why do students feel the need to overperform so much.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So how were you seeing it manifest? How was it affecting you and your peers?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> I honestly primarily saw it manifest within the student community itself. So, when I started writing the article, I had to — it was a little difficult, honestly — turn myself into an observer of a community I was already so integrated in.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I was constantly observing and seeing the interactions between students, where students should be like, “Oh, I just got a B on this test. I’m going to fail.” And I was just thinking in the back of my head, like, no, you’re not going to fail. I mean, the standard is so high, and students are making very casual comments that kind of inflate that standard.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I just think, like, a lot of the times when we get, for example, grades back, or there’s the SAT or the ACT, AP scores, it’s always the highest standard that’s expected among students. If students don’t get a five on their AP exam, they’re automatically disappointed and assume that they’re failing. If they get a B, they’re automatically panicked and assuming, “I’m failing.” Anything less than the standard feels like failing to a lot of the students. That’s sort of the impression that I got while observing my community.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I just think, like, a lot of the times when we get, for example, grades back, or there’s the SAT or the ACT, AP scores, it’s always the highest standard that’s expected among students. If students don’t get a five on their AP exam, they’re automatically disappointed and assume that they’re failing. If they get a B, they’re automatically panicked and assuming, “I’m failing.” Anything less than the standard feels like failing to a lot of the students. That’s sort of the impression that I got while observing my community.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Did you find that people were talking about having trouble sleeping, that they were, you know, experiencing some degree of not feeling like they were good enough?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Did you find that people were talking about having trouble sleeping, that they were, you know, experiencing some degree of not feeling like they were good enough?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> Definitely. It’s very common for me to hear, like, “Oh, I only got like three hours of sleep. I was studying for this test,” or, “Oh, I barely slept yesterday.” And it feels very normal. But when I think about it objectively, I’m just like, that’s not healthy at all. Like, you should be getting sleep. You should be eating well. But all these basic things are being sacrificed for studying and getting those perfect grades.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> Definitely. It’s very common for me to hear, like, “Oh, I only got like three hours of sleep. I was studying for this test,” or, “Oh, I barely slept yesterday.” And it feels very normal. But when I think about it objectively, I’m just like, that’s not healthy at all. Like, you should be getting sleep. You should be eating well. But all these basic things are being sacrificed for studying and getting those perfect grades.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I do think that students have placed the entirety of their self-worth on their grades and these numbers and these letters, and you can really see how it affects their mindset, how it affects the basic care they do for themselves.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I do think that students have placed the entirety of their self-worth on their grades and these numbers and these letters, and you can really see how it affects their mindset, how it affects the basic care they do for themselves.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I was also struck from the outset that you talked about the Bay Area, how things were specific to the Bay Area in your high school. Tell me about how you think your community plays a role in the pressure that these students feel.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I was also struck from the outset that you talked about the Bay Area, how things were specific to the Bay Area in your high school. Tell me about how you think your community plays a role in the pressure that these students feel.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> Of course. So when I was doing research for the article, I was drawn to the city and the Silicon Valley in particular because I noticed that in the Silicon Valley, in the Bay Area, there’s a lot of upper-class people who have very high median incomes. And I thought perhaps that contributed because the standard of success in the Bay Area in particular is very inflated.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> Of course. So when I was doing research for the article, I was drawn to the city and the Silicon Valley in particular because I noticed that in the Silicon Valley, in the Bay Area, there’s a lot of upper-class people who have very high median incomes. And I thought perhaps that contributed because the standard of success in the Bay Area in particular is very inflated.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s like a tech hub. We see all these successful companies, these successful tech companies. And when students see that, I think they think that’s the standard of success, that’s a baseline level of success. When you’re surrounded by so much success and so much opportunity, if you don’t take that or if you don’t meet that, it can feel automatically like failure.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It’s like a tech hub. We see all these successful companies, these successful tech companies. And when students see that, I think they think that’s the standard of success, that’s a baseline level of success. When you’re surrounded by so much success and so much opportunity, if you don’t take that or if you don’t meet that, it can feel automatically like failure.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so I think there really is, like, it’s amazing to live here in Silicon Valley and have so much opportunity at your fingertips, but with that opportunity comes like an unsaid sort of expectation to meet all of that and have to achieve that, and everyone else is trying to do the exact same thing as you are.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so I think there really is, like, it’s amazing to live here in Silicon Valley and have so much opportunity at your fingertips, but with that opportunity comes like an unsaid sort of expectation to meet all of that and have to achieve that, and everyone else is trying to do the exact same thing as you are.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I was struck by this line in your piece where you say, “Even as I write this article and acknowledge these issues, the idea of breaking away from the culture is scary.” Talk about that. It’s hard even as you’re aware of it, right, to be able to adopt, you know, things that might reduce the pressure yourself.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I was struck by this line in your piece where you say, “Even as I write this article and acknowledge these issues, the idea of breaking away from the culture is scary.” Talk about that. It’s hard even as you’re aware of it, right, to be able to adopt, you know, things that might reduce the pressure yourself.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I would say personally I, of course, am in the student community and I feel those pressures firsthand. I think that I also value my academics a lot, and it sometimes feels like, you know, if I get anything less than an A, I’m automatically, like, extremely upset at myself. And I think, like, while perhaps I understand, like, objectively it’s not the end of the world, after you’re just surrounded by that pressure for so many years, it kind of becomes your norm.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I would say personally I, of course, am in the student community and I feel those pressures firsthand. I think that I also value my academics a lot, and it sometimes feels like, you know, if I get anything less than an A, I’m automatically, like, extremely upset at myself. And I think, like, while perhaps I understand, like, objectively it’s not the end of the world, after you’re just surrounded by that pressure for so many years, it kind of becomes your norm.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You automatically feel those before you can really catch yourself and realize, hey, no, I’m not a failure. I’m feeling I’m gonna fail because I got a B in a class.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You automatically feel those before you can really catch yourself and realize, hey, no, I’m not a failure. I’m feeling I’m gonna fail because I got a B in a class.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I do think that the first step to breaking away, as I said, from these expectations is acknowledgement because it is such a deep-rooted issue that it doesn’t even start in high school. It starts from when your academic journey begins in middle school. You’re taught that, like, academics are the be-all and end-all, and that doesn’t end in high school. It doesn’t — like, and when you go to college, I think when you grow up around that environment, it sticks with you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I do think that the first step to breaking away, as I said, from these expectations is acknowledgement because it is such a deep-rooted issue that it doesn’t even start in high school. It starts from when your academic journey begins in middle school. You’re taught that, like, academics are the be-all and end-all, and that doesn’t end in high school. It doesn’t — like, and when you go to college, I think when you grow up around that environment, it sticks with you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Would you say it was middle school where you started to feel it, or did you even feel it as early as elementary?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Would you say it was middle school where you started to feel it, or did you even feel it as early as elementary?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> I would say, like, personally, it didn’t really affect me until high school, but I don’t think that’s the case at all for my peers, because I did see my peers very frequently panicking over their grades.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> I would say, like, personally, it didn’t really affect me until high school, but I don’t think that’s the case at all for my peers, because I did see my peers very frequently panicking over their grades.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And when I entered as a freshman in high school, I could already see that academic pressure around, and I think that — I don’t think it all of a sudden manifested in the first couple months of freshman year. I think it had been there since middle school, and that’s why so many freshmen were already anxious about their grades.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And when I entered as a freshman in high school, I could already see that academic pressure around, and I think that — I don’t think it all of a sudden manifested in the first couple months of freshman year. I think it had been there since middle school, and that’s why so many freshmen were already anxious about their grades.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Stuart, Ananya mentions acknowledgement, and that’s what you’re trying to do, acknowledge this issue. And I imagine what she’s saying also sounds familiar to you after serving more than 18,000 teenagers in some 18 high schools, I understand, including in California.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Stuart, Ananya mentions acknowledgement, and that’s what you’re trying to do, acknowledge this issue. And I imagine what she’s saying also sounds familiar to you after serving more than 18,000 teenagers in some 18 high schools, I understand, including in California.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yes, absolutely. The first schools that I looked at were all in the Bay Area. And I have to say, Ananya really encapsulated so beautifully, or eloquently, the challenges kids are facing these days and the pressure-cooker environment that they’re facing in communities across this country.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yes, absolutely. The first schools that I looked at were all in the Bay Area. And I have to say, Ananya really encapsulated so beautifully, or eloquently, the challenges kids are facing these days and the pressure-cooker environment that they’re facing in communities across this country.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And even your own child was not immune, right? You share a very relatable experience of her feeling like she couldn’t stop to eat dinner because of all the homework she had and bursting into tears.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And even your own child was not immune, right? You share a very relatable experience of her feeling like she couldn’t stop to eat dinner because of all the homework she had and bursting into tears.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, this really started me on this journey. So I’m a pediatrician, and I was watching my daughters in a high school that was reputedly kind of the most progressive school in the St. Louis region, but the amounts of homework and academic pressure they were facing was just extraordinary.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, this really started me on this journey. So I’m a pediatrician, and I was watching my daughters in a high school that was reputedly kind of the most progressive school in the St. Louis region, but the amounts of homework and academic pressure they were facing was just extraordinary.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so that really launched me on this journey to look at this issue and really raise awareness about it, because I think it could almost be viewed as a problem hiding in plain sight, that we’re so hyper-focused on phones and screens as a source of the adolescent mental health crisis. I have deep concerns about those, but I think it’s led us to kind of ignore this problem, which I think Ananya has really described.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so that really launched me on this journey to look at this issue and really raise awareness about it, because I think it could almost be viewed as a problem hiding in plain sight, that we’re so hyper-focused on phones and screens as a source of the adolescent mental health crisis. I have deep concerns about those, but I think it’s led us to kind of ignore this problem, which I think Ananya has really described.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, how do you know that what your daughter was expressing, or what you see happening around you, is not, you know, temporary stress or momentary drama, but a bigger, more serious structural problem?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, how do you know that what your daughter was expressing, or what you see happening around you, is not, you know, temporary stress or momentary drama, but a bigger, more serious structural problem?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Well, there are a couple of layers to that that I would say. One is, if your child as an adolescent suffers from depression or anxiety, it markedly increases their likelihood of having those mental health problems as adults.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Well, there are a couple of layers to that that I would say. One is, if your child as an adolescent suffers from depression or anxiety, it markedly increases their likelihood of having those mental health problems as adults.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But the other that Ananya kind of alluded to is there are these kind of mindsets. I’ll describe a couple of them. One is maladaptive perfectionism that’s been on the rise for 35 years, where an A-minus or a B isn’t good enough and it feels just terrible. Another is performance as identity. It’s not that you got the score, it’s you are that score.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But the other that Ananya kind of alluded to is there are these kind of mindsets. I’ll describe a couple of them. One is maladaptive perfectionism that’s been on the rise for 35 years, where an A-minus or a B isn’t good enough and it feels just terrible. Another is performance as identity. It’s not that you got the score, it’s you are that score.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Those don’t disappear. Kids are internalizing these and then carrying them into adulthood in ways that then can contribute to their distress later as young adults and on into adulthood.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Those don’t disappear. Kids are internalizing these and then carrying them into adulthood in ways that then can contribute to their distress later as young adults and on into adulthood.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And you have seen this as widespread. Like, what do the stats tell you, and also widening? I quoted you saying that you were also seeing this in much broader economic swaths and also happening younger even than high school. Can you help us understand sort of the scope of what you’re seeing?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And you have seen this as widespread. Like, what do the stats tell you, and also widening? I quoted you saying that you were also seeing this in much broader economic swaths and also happening younger even than high school. Can you help us understand sort of the scope of what you’re seeing?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the scope I describe in a few ways. I mean, I have done research then in California and Missouri, and also in Ohio. And I also had the opportunity over the last eight years or so in my job to travel the country and just talk to families and talk to kids.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the scope I describe in a few ways. I mean, I have done research then in California and Missouri, and also in Ohio. And I also had the opportunity over the last eight years or so in my job to travel the country and just talk to families and talk to kids.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it became very clear that what used to be, I think, really in very affluent communities and on both coasts has spread like wildfire really across the country. And I think to a great degree, it’s understandably kind of — it is driven by, I think, a sense of economic insecurity. A sense that the divide between the haves and the have-nots is growing and that to have a middle-class existence is increasingly difficult.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And it became very clear that what used to be, I think, really in very affluent communities and on both coasts has spread like wildfire really across the country. And I think to a great degree, it’s understandably kind of — it is driven by, I think, a sense of economic insecurity. A sense that the divide between the haves and the have-nots is growing and that to have a middle-class existence is increasingly difficult.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So a lot of this, I think, is well-intended efforts to launch kids to success, which sadly I don’t think are actually even achieving that goal.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So a lot of this, I think, is well-intended efforts to launch kids to success, which sadly I don’t think are actually even achieving that goal.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Hmm. Actually, this Discord user Nicole writes — no, well, writes: “This extreme academic pressure is a symptom of our growing inequality.” And I think you have some thoughts on that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Hmm. Actually, this Discord user Nicole writes — no, well, writes: “This extreme academic pressure is a symptom of our growing inequality.” And I think you have some thoughts on that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’re coming up on a break, though, so let me remind listeners that we are talking with Stuart Slavin, a pediatrician and medical educator and researcher and author of the new book \u003cem>The Success Trap\u003c/em>, and Ananya Kota, a student journalist at Los Altos High School.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>We’re coming up on a break, though, so let me remind listeners that we are talking with Stuart Slavin, a pediatrician and medical educator and researcher and author of the new book \u003cem>The Success Trap\u003c/em>, and Ananya Kota, a student journalist at Los Altos High School.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And with you, are you a high school student or recent graduate? How did academic pressure affect your mental health? If you’re the parent of an adolescent, have you noticed symptoms of anxiety or depression in your child? What did you find helped relieve the stress that comes with high school or college applications? 866-733-6786 is the number.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And with you, are you a high school student or recent graduate? How did academic pressure affect your mental health? If you’re the parent of an adolescent, have you noticed symptoms of anxiety or depression in your child? What did you find helped relieve the stress that comes with high school or college applications? 866-733-6786 is the number.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Stay with us. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Stay with us. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. We’re talking this hour about the increasing pressure students are facing and feeling in high school. We’re talking about it with Stuart Slavin, who’s written a new book called \u003cem>The Success Trap: How the Pressure to Stand Out Is Fueling Anxiety, Depression, and Burnout in Teens and the Fundamental Fix They Deserve\u003c/em>. He’s a pediatrician and researcher.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. We’re talking this hour about the increasing pressure students are facing and feeling in high school. We’re talking about it with Stuart Slavin, who’s written a new book called \u003cem>The Success Trap: How the Pressure to Stand Out Is Fueling Anxiety, Depression, and Burnout in Teens and the Fundamental Fix They Deserve\u003c/em>. He’s a pediatrician and researcher.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ananya Kota is also with us, a student journalist at Los Altos High School, who published a piece in May in her student paper detailing the pressure students face there.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Ananya Kota is also with us, a student journalist at Los Altos High School, who published a piece in May in her student paper detailing the pressure students face there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And you are joining us at the email address \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, listeners on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum. Tell us if you are a student or a parent of a student and you’ve noticed these types of academic pressures and their effect on students’ mental health.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And you are joining us at the email address \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, listeners on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum. Tell us if you are a student or a parent of a student and you’ve noticed these types of academic pressures and their effect on students’ mental health.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Are you a teacher or administrator? Are there policies or changes you’ve made at your school that you have found helped improve student mental health? Or what did you find students or parents helped relieve the stress that comes with high school, college admissions and applications, and also with the demands of extracurricular activities?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Are you a teacher or administrator? Are there policies or changes you’ve made at your school that you have found helped improve student mental health? Or what did you find students or parents helped relieve the stress that comes with high school, college admissions and applications, and also with the demands of extracurricular activities?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Listener on Discord writes, “A student’s fear of disappointing their parents often creates more stress than direct parental pressure.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Listener on Discord writes, “A student’s fear of disappointing their parents often creates more stress than direct parental pressure.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>One of the things you were saying, Stuart, was just how much there is concern among parents about economic anxiety and growing inequality as well driving this. What more would you add to what you feel like is leading students to what you’ve described as really unprecedented levels of stress and anxiety?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>One of the things you were saying, Stuart, was just how much there is concern among parents about economic anxiety and growing inequality as well driving this. What more would you add to what you feel like is leading students to what you’ve described as really unprecedented levels of stress and anxiety?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> You know, I think one way to look at that, Mina, is looking at the survey that we used in these 18 schools, and we asked students to rate 35 different stressors in their life to see how big of a stress factor they were.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> You know, I think one way to look at that, Mina, is looking at the survey that we used in these 18 schools, and we asked students to rate 35 different stressors in their life to see how big of a stress factor they were.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And these included things like school-related, obviously, but boyfriend, girlfriend, family issues, health issues, bullying, cyberbullying, social media. And the thing that really struck me is that in every one of the 18 schools, the top-rated stressors, the biggest stressors in kids’ lives, was school- and achievement-related.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And these included things like school-related, obviously, but boyfriend, girlfriend, family issues, health issues, bullying, cyberbullying, social media. And the thing that really struck me is that in every one of the 18 schools, the top-rated stressors, the biggest stressors in kids’ lives, was school- and achievement-related.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And just to add to that point of your really perceptive learner, who said pressure — pressure to not disappoint parents. In our survey, it was actually ranked higher as a greater stressor than direct pressure from parents. So even as parents, if we’re not putting that direct pressure on them, they know our values and sometimes react to those.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And just to add to that point of your really perceptive learner, who said pressure — pressure to not disappoint parents. In our survey, it was actually ranked higher as a greater stressor than direct pressure from parents. So even as parents, if we’re not putting that direct pressure on them, they know our values and sometimes react to those.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The last thing I’ll say about that, which is true, the number one or number two stressor that was cited by kids in every single school was pressure from self. So what they’re doing is reacting to this pressure-cooker environment and then absorbing all of this, and it’s really creating these mindsets that they’re again going to carry with them to adulthood and contribute to future distress as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The last thing I’ll say about that, which is true, the number one or number two stressor that was cited by kids in every single school was pressure from self. So what they’re doing is reacting to this pressure-cooker environment and then absorbing all of this, and it’s really creating these mindsets that they’re again going to carry with them to adulthood and contribute to future distress as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, I want to bring into the conversation now a former administrator of the California school district, Dublin Unified, Chris Funk. Chris, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, I want to bring into the conversation now a former administrator of the California school district, Dublin Unified, Chris Funk. Chris, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Funk:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Funk:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So your district is trying something new, and I know you just left as an administrator in the summer, but you really set the stage for this experiment, essentially. What are you trying to do in Dublin?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So your district is trying something new, and I know you just left as an administrator in the summer, but you really set the stage for this experiment, essentially. What are you trying to do in Dublin?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Funk:\u003c/strong> I just retired in June after 36 years in public education, and the majority of that spent between either two K-12 districts and one high school district.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Funk:\u003c/strong> I just retired in June after 36 years in public education, and the majority of that spent between either two K-12 districts and one high school district.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It was clear to me that this zero-sum race to the top to get to the best colleges was causing students to have excessive academic course loading that seemed like they were just chasing that grade point average, that boost that you get by taking an honors or Advanced Placement course, as opposed to for the love of learning, the engagement of really trying to be masterful of the content that you’re learning.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It was clear to me that this zero-sum race to the top to get to the best colleges was causing students to have excessive academic course loading that seemed like they were just chasing that grade point average, that boost that you get by taking an honors or Advanced Placement course, as opposed to for the love of learning, the engagement of really trying to be masterful of the content that you’re learning.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so in Dublin last year, the board passed a resolution that limited the number of courses, honors and Advanced Placement courses, that a student could take in a single year as well as across their four years. So they could take up to four classes combined, honors and AP, in a single year, and up to 11 across their four-year high school time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so in Dublin last year, the board passed a resolution that limited the number of courses, honors and Advanced Placement courses, that a student could take in a single year as well as across their four years. So they could take up to four classes combined, honors and AP, in a single year, and up to 11 across their four-year high school time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And what are you hoping the effect of this change will be?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And what are you hoping the effect of this change will be?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Funk:\u003c/strong> Well, we’re trying to promote more balance, student well-being and a healthier school culture. Because at all three of my systems that I’ve been a part of, there has been mental health has been kind of that stigma. That stigma, I think, has been reduced now after COVID, and now it becomes an expectation that wellness, mental health, is such an important, vital part of everyone’s life, not just high school students, grownups also.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Funk:\u003c/strong> Well, we’re trying to promote more balance, student well-being and a healthier school culture. Because at all three of my systems that I’ve been a part of, there has been mental health has been kind of that stigma. That stigma, I think, has been reduced now after COVID, and now it becomes an expectation that wellness, mental health, is such an important, vital part of everyone’s life, not just high school students, grownups also.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so we’re just trying to focus on creating a more healthy environment, change that mindset that Dr. Slavin has been talking about. And also focus on all the other amazing aspects of being an adolescent in high school, whether it’s athletics, whether it is extracurricular activities like band and choir and drama and dance, all the amazing things that happen in high school, and less focus on just the academic course loading.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so we’re just trying to focus on creating a more healthy environment, change that mindset that Dr. Slavin has been talking about. And also focus on all the other amazing aspects of being an adolescent in high school, whether it’s athletics, whether it is extracurricular activities like band and choir and drama and dance, all the amazing things that happen in high school, and less focus on just the academic course loading.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And what was the reaction to this decision to limit the number of AP classes offered? And similarly, Discord user Jeff writes, “Did you get pushback from families who worried the AP class limit would disadvantage their kids in college admissions?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And what was the reaction to this decision to limit the number of AP classes offered? And similarly, Discord user Jeff writes, “Did you get pushback from families who worried the AP class limit would disadvantage their kids in college admissions?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Funk:\u003c/strong> Well, I had a unanimous decision by my board, and my board represents the entire district. So that’s a good sign. And yes, there’s always going to be some pushback on any policy that you implement.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Funk:\u003c/strong> Well, I had a unanimous decision by my board, and my board represents the entire district. So that’s a good sign. And yes, there’s always going to be some pushback on any policy that you implement.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I believe the pushback was minor compared to the larger conversation we had around grading, because we did change our grading policy prior to the resolution on limiting AP courses. But most of it was around the fact that families and students felt like they were going to be put at a disadvantage, and just really not understanding the academic entrance requirements into colleges and universities, the idea of what is the official school profile, that you’re really just competing against your own peers at your school and you’re not competing against other schools across the nation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I believe the pushback was minor compared to the larger conversation we had around grading, because we did change our grading policy prior to the resolution on limiting AP courses. But most of it was around the fact that families and students felt like they were going to be put at a disadvantage, and just really not understanding the academic entrance requirements into colleges and universities, the idea of what is the official school profile, that you’re really just competing against your own peers at your school and you’re not competing against other schools across the nation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the reality is that you can get to the very best colleges without having to overload on your course taking. So it’s really about education.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the reality is that you can get to the very best colleges without having to overload on your course taking. So it’s really about education.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And universities, they do know or have profiles on high schools, right, about how many APs are offered there, so they recognize that if a student is taking a certain number that may be less than another district, it’s just because that district simply didn’t offer that many of them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And universities, they do know or have profiles on high schools, right, about how many APs are offered there, so they recognize that if a student is taking a certain number that may be less than another district, it’s just because that district simply didn’t offer that many of them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Funk:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. That’s exactly it. That is why each school and each district has their school profile.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Funk:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. That’s exactly it. That is why each school and each district has their school profile.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the other piece is that there is this idea that the more classes I take, the better chance I have of getting into this college. And the reality is every college, every university recalculates the GPA, and they have the base level, 22 courses, 24 courses that they actually take the GPA of. So if you take 30 courses, six of those courses, depending on which college or university you apply for, aren’t even going to count because they’re not going to calculate that in your GPA.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the other piece is that there is this idea that the more classes I take, the better chance I have of getting into this college. And the reality is every college, every university recalculates the GPA, and they have the base level, 22 courses, 24 courses that they actually take the GPA of. So if you take 30 courses, six of those courses, depending on which college or university you apply for, aren’t even going to count because they’re not going to calculate that in your GPA.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so what we’re trying to create in Dublin was this concept of focus on the areas that you love, do the very best and master those areas. Focus on the other aspects of being an adolescent and what colleges look for in terms of your extracurricular activities, your community service, and all being that whole child. It has been lost with this race to the top.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so what we’re trying to create in Dublin was this concept of focus on the areas that you love, do the very best and master those areas. Focus on the other aspects of being an adolescent and what colleges look for in terms of your extracurricular activities, your community service, and all being that whole child. It has been lost with this race to the top.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It’s very interesting because I hear echoes in what Chris Funk is saying with what you’ve said about, maybe we have lost our understanding of what successful means.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It’s very interesting because I hear echoes in what Chris Funk is saying with what you’ve said about, maybe we have lost our understanding of what successful means.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think that’s exactly right, and I have to say first, kudos to you, Chris, and your board for taking these actions. I think a lot of schools have been really reluctant to take these kind of measures.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think that’s exactly right, and I have to say first, kudos to you, Chris, and your board for taking these actions. I think a lot of schools have been really reluctant to take these kind of measures.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>One of the key things, I think, for listeners to really understand is that I think there’s this idea that if you back off, the performance is going to drop.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>One of the key things, I think, for listeners to really understand is that I think there’s this idea that if you back off, the performance is going to drop.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A couple of things I would say to counter that: In every school I looked at, kids reported on average getting six and a half hours of sleep per night. The adolescent brain needs eight to ten, so at that level they’re cognitively and emotionally compromised.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A couple of things I would say to counter that: In every school I looked at, kids reported on average getting six and a half hours of sleep per night. The adolescent brain needs eight to ten, so at that level they’re cognitively and emotionally compromised.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then the other piece that I think is really important stems from my work with medical students, in which we found high rates of depression and anxiety, reduced pressure, reduced demands, and not only did their mental health improve dramatically, their performance improved as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then the other piece that I think is really important stems from my work with medical students, in which we found high rates of depression and anxiety, reduced pressure, reduced demands, and not only did their mental health improve dramatically, their performance improved as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I think there’s kind of this false narrative that if we back off, if we reduce the pressure, that somehow performance is going to drop and they aren’t going to be as competitive. And I think that’s just false.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I think there’s kind of this false narrative that if we back off, if we reduce the pressure, that somehow performance is going to drop and they aren’t going to be as competitive. And I think that’s just false.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Ananya, though, I was struck by a Chronicle piece that covered what Dublin was doing, and it quoted a student, or just a recent graduate from Dublin, as saying that students are just going to find other ways to stand out if they can’t stand out based on the number of AP courses they’ve taken.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Ananya, though, I was struck by a Chronicle piece that covered what Dublin was doing, and it quoted a student, or just a recent graduate from Dublin, as saying that students are just going to find other ways to stand out if they can’t stand out based on the number of AP courses they’ve taken.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What do you think about that? Do you think that’s likely true?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What do you think about that? Do you think that’s likely true?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> I think partially yes, just because, I mean, the AP cap has also been discussed among our districts, and I certainly did hear a lot of pushback from my peers at the idea of being limited about the number of APs. I frankly think some of them find it scary.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> I think partially yes, just because, I mean, the AP cap has also been discussed among our districts, and I certainly did hear a lot of pushback from my peers at the idea of being limited about the number of APs. I frankly think some of them find it scary.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But there is also, I know you mentioned it before, like a stigma around extracurriculars, how many you need to take, how they need to stand out. And I think some of that pressure will shift.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But there is also, I know you mentioned it before, like a stigma around extracurriculars, how many you need to take, how they need to stand out. And I think some of that pressure will shift.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But also I do think academics and extracurriculars are two very separate entities, and I do think limiting the number of APs can potentially really help students focus academically and really take the classes they’re passionate about.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But also I do think academics and extracurriculars are two very separate entities, and I do think limiting the number of APs can potentially really help students focus academically and really take the classes they’re passionate about.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I do unfortunately think that it won’t eliminate the pressure and they’ll still feel stressed about it. So I think it will help them, but that pressure might unfortunately feel more prominent just because there’s that underlying worry that if I’m not taking enough AP classes, am I going to be competitive, or do I need to make up for this in my extracurriculars?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I do unfortunately think that it won’t eliminate the pressure and they’ll still feel stressed about it. So I think it will help them, but that pressure might unfortunately feel more prominent just because there’s that underlying worry that if I’m not taking enough AP classes, am I going to be competitive, or do I need to make up for this in my extracurriculars?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I think it honestly completely kind of depends on the student and how they receive that. But yeah, I think they can be received in multiple ways.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I think it honestly completely kind of depends on the student and how they receive that. But yeah, I think they can be received in multiple ways.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me go to caller Naomi in Berkeley. Naomi, go ahead, you’re on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me go to caller Naomi in Berkeley. Naomi, go ahead, you’re on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> Hi, my students graduated from Berkeley High in 2023 and 2025. And I think the pressure comes not only from the academic achievements, but the community and the parents of friends and the peers themselves.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> Hi, my students graduated from Berkeley High in 2023 and 2025. And I think the pressure comes not only from the academic achievements, but the community and the parents of friends and the peers themselves.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>My kids were admitted to fine, decent state and UC schools. And they heard comments from parents at parties or from their peers that they would never allow their kids to apply to that school, or they would never go to that school as only their backup school, and I found that to be, as a parent, to be very distressing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>My kids were admitted to fine, decent state and UC schools. And they heard comments from parents at parties or from their peers that they would never allow their kids to apply to that school, or they would never go to that school as only their backup school, and I found that to be, as a parent, to be very distressing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>My kids were fine students. They had A’s and B’s. I did not allow them, or do not encourage them, to max out their APs. They had, you know, they were varsity athletes, and still, by their peers and the parents in our community, they heard very negative comments, and it was very hurtful.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>My kids were fine students. They had A’s and B’s. I did not allow them, or do not encourage them, to max out their APs. They had, you know, they were varsity athletes, and still, by their peers and the parents in our community, they heard very negative comments, and it was very hurtful.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Naomi, thank you for sharing that. Stuart, what have you found are sort of the most common or problematic ways that parents in communities inadvertently add pressure to kids?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Naomi, thank you for sharing that. Stuart, what have you found are sort of the most common or problematic ways that parents in communities inadvertently add pressure to kids?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so back to that point that pressure to not disappoint parents, even if you’re not putting that direct pressure on, they may know your values by, you know, when you’re talking to friends and somebody mentions that their child is going to Harvard or Stanford, etc., and they just light up. The kids can know your value.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so back to that point that pressure to not disappoint parents, even if you’re not putting that direct pressure on, they may know your values by, you know, when you’re talking to friends and somebody mentions that their child is going to Harvard or Stanford, etc., and they just light up. The kids can know your value.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I think what your caller also really alludes to is that this is widespread in the culture, and I think in some ways it requires some courage on the part of parents and kids to say, no, I’m not going to be influenced and affected by that. I have a sense of my self-worth as a human being that isn’t tied to going to the most, you know, selective, prestigious college possible.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I think what your caller also really alludes to is that this is widespread in the culture, and I think in some ways it requires some courage on the part of parents and kids to say, no, I’m not going to be influenced and affected by that. I have a sense of my self-worth as a human being that isn’t tied to going to the most, you know, selective, prestigious college possible.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Jane writes, “My 18-year-old has dealt with depression and anxiety and expresses desire to relieve their stress with drugs and alcohol. I feel like saying, well, just don’t do that. But just like abstinence, I know saying just say no is unrealistic. How would you suggest talking to a young adult about drugs and alcohol and moderation in a world filled with anxiety?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Jane writes, “My 18-year-old has dealt with depression and anxiety and expresses desire to relieve their stress with drugs and alcohol. I feel like saying, well, just don’t do that. But just like abstinence, I know saying just say no is unrealistic. How would you suggest talking to a young adult about drugs and alcohol and moderation in a world filled with anxiety?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it sounds like if they’re using it to relieve anxiety, Stuart.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And it sounds like if they’re using it to relieve anxiety, Stuart.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Oh, it’s a very difficult situation, I feel, for that person, and I think that’s kind of the downstream consequences of having a child who’s living in such a pressurized environment as an adolescent that they enter young adulthood really at risk.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Oh, it’s a very difficult situation, I feel, for that person, and I think that’s kind of the downstream consequences of having a child who’s living in such a pressurized environment as an adolescent that they enter young adulthood really at risk.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And in terms of how to talk to them, I guess, you know, I think with a supportive approach, without a judgmental approach, and ideally encouraging them with you to seek care from a health professional of some kind.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But it is, I think, these are the kind of hidden consequences of what may happen if our kids do feel such enormous pressure and demands as they’re in their early development.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Laura writes, “How do we encourage a kid to work and do well, to put in the time to understand the schoolwork without putting dangerous pressures on them?” Stuart.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Laura writes, “How do we encourage a kid to work and do well, to put in the time to understand the schoolwork without putting dangerous pressures on them?” Stuart.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I guess what I would say is one of the things that I think is important is to focus less. We have a tendency — how’d that test go? What kind of scores are you getting? How’s your grade point average?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I guess what I would say is one of the things that I think is important is to focus less. We have a tendency — how’d that test go? What kind of scores are you getting? How’s your grade point average?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And these electronic dashboards, I think, have become a real problem, where it’s not just kids checking them furiously, but parents are as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And these electronic dashboards, I think, have become a real problem, where it’s not just kids checking them furiously, but parents are as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think it’s vitally important, it’s just vitally important, for parents to acknowledge and celebrate other identities than their kids’ academic performance: their humor, their creativity, their kindness, their ability to work with others. There are so many things that we need to recognize in our kids that I think get lost in our daily conversations of left cars.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think it’s vitally important, it’s just vitally important, for parents to acknowledge and celebrate other identities than their kids’ academic performance: their humor, their creativity, their kindness, their ability to work with others. There are so many things that we need to recognize in our kids that I think get lost in our daily conversations of left cars.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Talk about where it can lead. You mentioned the phenomenon of crashing out. What is that?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Talk about where it can lead. You mentioned the phenomenon of crashing out. What is that?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Oh, crashing out, I think, Ananya, I’d love to hear what she says, where, you know, what looks like a minor setback to anybody else, you know, if anybody else looks at somebody who gets an A-minus or a B-plus, and, you know, the kid thinks it’s a failure.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Oh, crashing out, I think, Ananya, I’d love to hear what she says, where, you know, what looks like a minor setback to anybody else, you know, if anybody else looks at somebody who gets an A-minus or a B-plus, and, you know, the kid thinks it’s a failure.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s not a failure, but that’s what it feels like. And that’s what these mindsets do. You know, you have the discomfort of a less-than-ideal performance. But the story, the narrative you add to it, that you attach to it, can make the pain much, much worse.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It’s not a failure, but that’s what it feels like. And that’s what these mindsets do. You know, you have the discomfort of a less-than-ideal performance. But the story, the narrative you add to it, that you attach to it, can make the pain much, much worse.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think there are skills that kids can easily learn and that parents can use. Tell them and help them understand these are just stories you’re telling yourself that really aren’t accurate and are harmful. And helping kids change those thought processes, I think, could be incredibly helpful on their journey to adulthood.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think there are skills that kids can easily learn and that parents can use. Tell them and help them understand these are just stories you’re telling yourself that really aren’t accurate and are harmful. And helping kids change those thought processes, I think, could be incredibly helpful on their journey to adulthood.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And you write that they manifest as essentially an acute cognitive and emotional breakdown, right? From explosive outbursts to actually emotional withdrawal.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And you write that they manifest as essentially an acute cognitive and emotional breakdown, right? From explosive outbursts to actually emotional withdrawal.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think parents just can’t really even comprehend. Again, it’s hard for them to understand why this, what looks like a minor setback, um, feels so profoundly painful.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think parents just can’t really even comprehend. Again, it’s hard for them to understand why this, what looks like a minor setback, um, feels so profoundly painful.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And again, I think it’s what Ananya had described is this culture that people live in, and it’s not just parents, it’s just, you know, teachers, coaches, et cetera, peers that are also creating this environment that is profound.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And again, I think it’s what Ananya had described is this culture that people live in, and it’s not just parents, it’s just, you know, teachers, coaches, et cetera, peers that are also creating this environment that is profound.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And again, as you said, the crashing out can be just breakdowns, perseverative thinking where they just can’t stop thinking about this problem. You know, meltdowns, tears, or anger as well.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And again, as you said, the crashing out can be just breakdowns, perseverative thinking where they just can’t stop thinking about this problem. You know, meltdowns, tears, or anger as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Ananya, we’re coming up on a break, but you wrote about a friend distancing themselves from your friend group for months. How were you able to reach out?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Ananya, we’re coming up on a break, but you wrote about a friend distancing themselves from your friend group for months. How were you able to reach out?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> I noticed it initially because she stopped coming to sit with lunch with us, and she stopped talking in our group chats. And I don’t think the pressure she felt was purposeful, I think, because our friends are very aware of the academic pressure, but a lot of them are extremely successful.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> I noticed it initially because she stopped coming to sit with lunch with us, and she stopped talking in our group chats. And I don’t think the pressure she felt was purposeful, I think, because our friends are very aware of the academic pressure, but a lot of them are extremely successful.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>All my friends are wonderful. I have a friend that’s going to Stanford and another one is going to Barnard. And I think even just being around such immensely successful people can make you feel, “I’m not doing enough.” And I think that’s what she felt.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>All my friends are wonderful. I have a friend that’s going to Stanford and another one is going to Barnard. And I think even just being around such immensely successful people can make you feel, “I’m not doing enough.” And I think that’s what she felt.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it’s exactly what he described, the emotional withdrawal. That was the aspect that she was facing. And it really manifested in, not in necessarily like outward outburst, but inward.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And it’s exactly what he described, the emotional withdrawal. That was the aspect that she was facing. And it really manifested in, not in necessarily like outward outburst, but inward.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the increasing academic pressures on high school students today. More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the increasing academic pressures on high school students today. More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. We’re talking this hour with Los Altos High School senior Ananya Kota, former superintendent of Dublin Unified School District, Chris Funk, and pediatrician, researcher and author of the new book \u003cem>The Success Trap\u003c/em>, Stuart Slavin, about how to address the increasing anxiety, depression and burnout that students are experiencing as a result of increased parental and social expectations and the desire to stand out in a college admissions process that seems to be demanding more AP courses and extracurriculars.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. We’re talking this hour with Los Altos High School senior Ananya Kota, former superintendent of Dublin Unified School District, Chris Funk, and pediatrician, researcher and author of the new book \u003cem>The Success Trap\u003c/em>, Stuart Slavin, about how to address the increasing anxiety, depression and burnout that students are experiencing as a result of increased parental and social expectations and the desire to stand out in a college admissions process that seems to be demanding more AP courses and extracurriculars.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Join the conversation with your own experiences and questions about how to address this at 866-733-6786, at the email address \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. You can find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, and Instagram. We’re at KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Join the conversation with your own experiences and questions about how to address this at 866-733-6786, at the email address \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. You can find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, and Instagram. We’re at KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Let me go to AJ in Mountain View. Hi, AJ, you’re on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Let me go to AJ in Mountain View. Hi, AJ, you’re on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> Hi, thanks for taking me on. I actually wanted to share a comment with regards to the pressure even though that comes from extracurricular activities that contribute to, that are important for college.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> Hi, thanks for taking me on. I actually wanted to share a comment with regards to the pressure even though that comes from extracurricular activities that contribute to, that are important for college.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I actually know this family. I mean, the child is all of 10 years old at this point. He’s into diving. There’s math class, there’s — I had no class, but of others, but what stood out for me was when the parent actually created a website, took some pictures, printed a calendar, and sold them to fund an NGO.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I actually know this family. I mean, the child is all of 10 years old at this point. He’s into diving. There’s math class, there’s — I had no class, but of others, but what stood out for me was when the parent actually created a website, took some pictures, printed a calendar, and sold them to fund an NGO.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And all of this to support his future college admissions. My concern was when a child is all of 10, I believe it’s going to be under 10 more years before he enters, and the pressure is already on. And this is in Los Altos, so I understand. I hear what Ananya is actually talking about. I actually see it around me and my neighbors.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And all of this to support his future college admissions. My concern was when a child is all of 10, I believe it’s going to be under 10 more years before he enters, and the pressure is already on. And this is in Los Altos, so I understand. I hear what Ananya is actually talking about. I actually see it around me and my neighbors.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Concerning. Well, AJ, thanks so much for sharing that. Stuart, would love to get your reactions to what AJ is describing, and it also seems to underscore the earlier point that you are seeing this younger and younger.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Concerning. Well, AJ, thanks so much for sharing that. Stuart, would love to get your reactions to what AJ is describing, and it also seems to underscore the earlier point that you are seeing this younger and younger.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> When I first started writing this book, and much of the research that supports it was really focused on high school students. But as I was talking to more people and I heard more and more stories of this kind of behavior, I think what it’s reflective of is a phenomenon called intensive parenting, where parents feel enormous social pressure to have their children in a lot of enrichment activities that increasingly have become much more intensive.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> When I first started writing this book, and much of the research that supports it was really focused on high school students. But as I was talking to more people and I heard more and more stories of this kind of behavior, I think what it’s reflective of is a phenomenon called intensive parenting, where parents feel enormous social pressure to have their children in a lot of enrichment activities that increasingly have become much more intensive.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The old days of just, like, you know, rec-league baseball has been replaced by club sports that go year-round, involve travel, sometimes enormous pressure and sense of competition on the kids. So, yeah, you have to wonder and worry about the impact on, goodness, a 10-year-old child. And it starts earlier.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The old days of just, like, you know, rec-league baseball has been replaced by club sports that go year-round, involve travel, sometimes enormous pressure and sense of competition on the kids. So, yeah, you have to wonder and worry about the impact on, goodness, a 10-year-old child. And it starts earlier.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’ve talked to parents of five- and six-year-olds. A quick story, which is a mom who told me, another mom said, “Do you have a soccer coach for your six-year-old?” And she said, “No.” “Well, he’s never gonna get into the travel team.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I’ve talked to parents of five- and six-year-olds. A quick story, which is a mom who told me, another mom said, “Do you have a soccer coach for your six-year-old?” And she said, “No.” “Well, he’s never gonna get into the travel team.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I think those pressures are widespread and they’re starting earlier and earlier.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I think those pressures are widespread and they’re starting earlier and earlier.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> One of the things you’ve warned against, Stuart, is parent as problem solver, the increasing role they take in that. What do you see as the dangers and how can they pull back?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> One of the things you’ve warned against, Stuart, is parent as problem solver, the increasing role they take in that. What do you see as the dangers and how can they pull back?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I have to admit I was a problem solver in many ways as a parent, and I think there’s a tendency for us to jump in when your kids are struggling. And while that’s important and at times to do, I think what you have to recognize is that if you jump in too quickly and intervene too aggressively, it has unintended consequences of reducing their own self-confidence in dealing with their problems, undermining their ability potentially to deal with challenges in the future.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I have to admit I was a problem solver in many ways as a parent, and I think there’s a tendency for us to jump in when your kids are struggling. And while that’s important and at times to do, I think what you have to recognize is that if you jump in too quickly and intervene too aggressively, it has unintended consequences of reducing their own self-confidence in dealing with their problems, undermining their ability potentially to deal with challenges in the future.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I mean, in many ways, we should be viewing adolescents as this kind of training ground for adulthood, and they need practice in working through and solving their problems as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I mean, in many ways, we should be viewing adolescents as this kind of training ground for adulthood, and they need practice in working through and solving their problems as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So you should be there to support. Don’t abandon your kids, but don’t fall into the tendency to jump in too quickly to try to rescue and solve problems.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So you should be there to support. Don’t abandon your kids, but don’t fall into the tendency to jump in too quickly to try to rescue and solve problems.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Scott in Sacramento writes, “Does involvement in extracurricular activities like after-school sports or clubs help relieve that stress of everyday student lives, or does it just compound it? As a parent, I feel that it would relieve it, but I didn’t have social media and other modern-day pressures that kids experience nowadays.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Scott in Sacramento writes, “Does involvement in extracurricular activities like after-school sports or clubs help relieve that stress of everyday student lives, or does it just compound it? As a parent, I feel that it would relieve it, but I didn’t have social media and other modern-day pressures that kids experience nowadays.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What do you think, Ananya? Do you think that extracurriculars — do you find them to be a place of relief or do you find them to be added stress?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What do you think, Ananya? Do you think that extracurriculars — do you find them to be a place of relief or do you find them to be added stress?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> I think it can be both. Honestly, personally, an extracurricular I find that stress relieving, as I do cross-country, and it’s so nice to have a dedicated time period where I can just exercise. And I know it’s a really good medium of stress relief. So that’s an example of one extracurricular that I think is stress relief.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> I think it can be both. Honestly, personally, an extracurricular I find that stress relieving, as I do cross-country, and it’s so nice to have a dedicated time period where I can just exercise. And I know it’s a really good medium of stress relief. So that’s an example of one extracurricular that I think is stress relief.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But also, in turn, I think in the back of my head, “Oh, this is taking a couple hours out of my day, so when am I going to do homework? When am I going to do this? When do I do that?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But also, in turn, I think in the back of my head, “Oh, this is taking a couple hours out of my day, so when am I going to do homework? When am I going to do this? When do I do that?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I think it’s a mix of both, and the key to finding an extracurricular that can do stress relief is just time management, knowing that, oh, if I’m gonna do this sport, can I have a time where I can do this other extracurricular or take the time to do homework this other time period?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I think it’s a mix of both, and the key to finding an extracurricular that can do stress relief is just time management, knowing that, oh, if I’m gonna do this sport, can I have a time where I can do this other extracurricular or take the time to do homework this other time period?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So don’t cram like seven extracurriculars into one day, because I think that starts to make it more of a pressure than a stress relief. But I think if you can find the key number of extracurriculars you genuinely enjoy, it can definitely be a stress relief.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So don’t cram like seven extracurriculars into one day, because I think that starts to make it more of a pressure than a stress relief. But I think if you can find the key number of extracurriculars you genuinely enjoy, it can definitely be a stress relief.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Have you found helpful, Ananya, as a high school student deep in this, right? Like strategies or things that you have found helped work for you in terms of relieving the stress and pressure?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Have you found helpful, Ananya, as a high school student deep in this, right? Like strategies or things that you have found helped work for you in terms of relieving the stress and pressure?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> I think the biggest thing is just being very aware of my limits as a student. I think, like, obviously being surrounded by so much pressure, it’s definitely affected me to the point where, like, sometimes I’ll find myself being like, “Oh, I should have taken that AP class,” even if it’s like not a class I’m necessarily, like, very passionate about.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> I think the biggest thing is just being very aware of my limits as a student. I think, like, obviously being surrounded by so much pressure, it’s definitely affected me to the point where, like, sometimes I’ll find myself being like, “Oh, I should have taken that AP class,” even if it’s like not a class I’m necessarily, like, very passionate about.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I think just having a support group around you, friends who don’t encourage, like, the academic pressure or don’t say things like, “Oh, you didn’t get an A on that test. Well, what are you doing?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I think just having a support group around you, friends who don’t encourage, like, the academic pressure or don’t say things like, “Oh, you didn’t get an A on that test. Well, what are you doing?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think being very aware of your own limits and also communicating that to your peers, especially to your parents, as they’re your main support, can really help with developing an understanding of, this is what I can do and I’m going to stick with it because I don’t want to burn out and I don’t want to fall down that rabbit hole of I’m not doing enough.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think being very aware of your own limits and also communicating that to your peers, especially to your parents, as they’re your main support, can really help with developing an understanding of, this is what I can do and I’m going to stick with it because I don’t want to burn out and I don’t want to fall down that rabbit hole of I’m not doing enough.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Chris, I’m curious what you’ve observed with regard to, you know, parents who seem to have a healthy relationship with their kids’ success levels.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Chris, I’m curious what you’ve observed with regard to, you know, parents who seem to have a healthy relationship with their kids’ success levels.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Funk:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you see it as has been mentioned. It starts younger and younger. But in terms of the academics, one of the key things or guidelines that happens — measure points — is in middle school math acceleration.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Funk:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you see it as has been mentioned. It starts younger and younger. But in terms of the academics, one of the key things or guidelines that happens — measure points — is in middle school math acceleration.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I can’t tell you, in all three of my school districts that I was in in 36 years, the goal to take calculus by your junior or even your sophomore year is the new trend. And you start ninth grade in Algebra 2, which is just completely a mindset that has to be changed, because every student that really wants to take calculus can get there in four years of high school math.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I can’t tell you, in all three of my school districts that I was in in 36 years, the goal to take calculus by your junior or even your sophomore year is the new trend. And you start ninth grade in Algebra 2, which is just completely a mindset that has to be changed, because every student that really wants to take calculus can get there in four years of high school math.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For some, it might require taking a summer course or a bridge course. But for most students, if they are applicable to taking calculus, they’ll be able to do it. But to have kids start to accelerate, taking algebra and geometry in middle school, I think that is way too much pressure.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For some, it might require taking a summer course or a bridge course. But for most students, if they are applicable to taking calculus, they’ll be able to do it. But to have kids start to accelerate, taking algebra and geometry in middle school, I think that is way too much pressure.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so, same families that put their kids in math acceleration, that also put them in academic classes in the summertime. You know, summertime really should be that time to explore other passions that you have. Just like with teachers, you’ve got to recharge your battery, because the school year is not a sprint, it’s a marathon.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so, same families that put their kids in math acceleration, that also put them in academic classes in the summertime. You know, summertime really should be that time to explore other passions that you have. Just like with teachers, you’ve got to recharge your battery, because the school year is not a sprint, it’s a marathon.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And there are certain stages throughout the year, October, December, end of February, that kids hit the wall, teachers hit the wall. And you got to be able to have that well-groundedness that’s important.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And there are certain stages throughout the year, October, December, end of February, that kids hit the wall, teachers hit the wall. And you got to be able to have that well-groundedness that’s important.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think one other aspect that we haven’t really talked about is that this policy is not a silver bullet. It’s to address one aspect of the academic stress. But grading is a huge discussion that may be for another day, but we have kids that are just chasing points.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think one other aspect that we haven’t really talked about is that this policy is not a silver bullet. It’s to address one aspect of the academic stress. But grading is a huge discussion that may be for another day, but we have kids that are just chasing points.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And that grading actually starts even in elementary school, where they don’t normally have letter grades. But this extra credit, chasing that extra credit, bringing in paper towel dispensers, bringing in hand cleanser for extra points — all that does is boost your grade, but doesn’t necessarily translate, or certainly doesn’t translate, to mastery of that content.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And that grading actually starts even in elementary school, where they don’t normally have letter grades. But this extra credit, chasing that extra credit, bringing in paper towel dispensers, bringing in hand cleanser for extra points — all that does is boost your grade, but doesn’t necessarily translate, or certainly doesn’t translate, to mastery of that content.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When you’re only chasing points, that’s another stressor on kids that the grading policy has to be addressed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When you’re only chasing points, that’s another stressor on kids that the grading policy has to be addressed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Stuart, you have a whole section about how many of the kids you spoke with have painted a picture of a lack of joy in their lives, which I really feel like is what Chris has been getting to.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Stuart, you have a whole section about how many of the kids you spoke with have painted a picture of a lack of joy in their lives, which I really feel like is what Chris has been getting to.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it is. I think that was the thing that was most striking to me. And one thing I’ll add on to a comment that Ananya made about cross-country: I think she seems to be approaching it in a healthy way, but I’ve talked to people, and this was one of the things that surprised me as I talked to kids, is that the perfectionism they had in their academics was also there in their extracurriculars.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it is. I think that was the thing that was most striking to me. And one thing I’ll add on to a comment that Ananya made about cross-country: I think she seems to be approaching it in a healthy way, but I’ve talked to people, and this was one of the things that surprised me as I talked to kids, is that the perfectionism they had in their academics was also there in their extracurriculars.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So if they had a disappointing cross-country time, they would just beat up on themselves and ruminate on this thought for just forever. So, this is a deep problem that I think kind of is — infiltrates, you know, all aspects of their life. Everything can become a competition.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So if they had a disappointing cross-country time, they would just beat up on themselves and ruminate on this thought for just forever. So, this is a deep problem that I think kind of is — infiltrates, you know, all aspects of their life. Everything can become a competition.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And when everything’s a competition, like the idea of just fun and joy disappears.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And when everything’s a competition, like the idea of just fun and joy disappears.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And last thing I think I would say about that that’s especially true: It isn’t the activities themselves that are a problem. It’s the nature of the activities. There’s great research that shows that it’s not the amount of time you spend in these, but it’s how competitive, how pressured, how controlled by adults is it. Those are the things that seem to correlate with adverse mental health outcomes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And last thing I think I would say about that that’s especially true: It isn’t the activities themselves that are a problem. It’s the nature of the activities. There’s great research that shows that it’s not the amount of time you spend in these, but it’s how competitive, how pressured, how controlled by adults is it. Those are the things that seem to correlate with adverse mental health outcomes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think we do need to, like, let’s bring some joy and fun back into the lives of our kids.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Do you see the turn to smartphones and screens or social media in part as a symptom of this lack of joy?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Do you see the turn to smartphones and screens or social media in part as a symptom of this lack of joy?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> I think that’s such a good question, and I think how I’d answer that is, yeah, and brief, yes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> I think that’s such a good question, and I think how I’d answer that is, yeah, and brief, yes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think one of the things that’s really striking to me about it is that our approach largely is, you know, kind of pushing these companies to change their algorithms, et cetera. That’s great. But a lot of it’s like prohibition, like let’s take your phones when you walk in the door at school, et cetera, et cetera.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think one of the things that’s really striking to me about it is that our approach largely is, you know, kind of pushing these companies to change their algorithms, et cetera. That’s great. But a lot of it’s like prohibition, like let’s take your phones when you walk in the door at school, et cetera, et cetera.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think we need to be working on the other side of the engagement. I think kids are turning to these devices because in many ways their virtual lives are more interesting and pleasant than their real ones.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think we need to be working on the other side of the engagement. I think kids are turning to these devices because in many ways their virtual lives are more interesting and pleasant than their real ones.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So one of the ways we maybe can work to get kids off their screens is actually to make their real lives more pleasant, more joyful, more enjoyable.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So one of the ways we maybe can work to get kids off their screens is actually to make their real lives more pleasant, more joyful, more enjoyable.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me remind listeners, you are listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. I’m going to caller Jonathan in San Francisco. Go ahead, Jonathan. You’re on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me remind listeners, you are listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. I’m going to caller Jonathan in San Francisco. Go ahead, Jonathan. You’re on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> I mean, I think this is a great topic that you guys have covered in a very well-rounded way. As a parent of a freshman and a seventh grader, I’m kind of in the middle of seeing a lot of this happening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> I mean, I think this is a great topic that you guys have covered in a very well-rounded way. As a parent of a freshman and a seventh grader, I’m kind of in the middle of seeing a lot of this happening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think there’s kind of a bifurcated set of forces that haven’t entirely been hit on yet on both sides of the collegiate experience.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think there’s kind of a bifurcated set of forces that haven’t entirely been hit on yet on both sides of the collegiate experience.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>On the high school side, more and more, as parents, we keep hearing, and the kids you’re hearing, but straight A is kind of the entry level, the bare minimum of what you need to get accepted at the top colleges. You need to have published papers. You need to be a part of research projects at reputable institutions. They’re not even just looking at the AP courses you took, they’re looking at how many AP courses did your high school offer? And then what percentage of those did you take?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>On the high school side, more and more, as parents, we keep hearing, and the kids you’re hearing, but straight A is kind of the entry level, the bare minimum of what you need to get accepted at the top colleges. You need to have published papers. You need to be a part of research projects at reputable institutions. They’re not even just looking at the AP courses you took, they’re looking at how many AP courses did your high school offer? And then what percentage of those did you take?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so those pressures really mount on the kids because I hear the kids talking about it a lot and comparing their strategies for getting into these sought-after schools.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so those pressures really mount on the kids because I hear the kids talking about it a lot and comparing their strategies for getting into these sought-after schools.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then on the other side of the collegiate experience, looking at where AI is going, I hear kids talking, a lot of my kids’ friends talking about, we’re worried that there’s not gonna be as many jobs. We’re hearing, you know, people that have graduated into college are now struggling to find work. And it’s a small percentage, but it’s still enough that it’s a part of the conversation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then on the other side of the collegiate experience, looking at where AI is going, I hear kids talking, a lot of my kids’ friends talking about, we’re worried that there’s not gonna be as many jobs. We’re hearing, you know, people that have graduated into college are now struggling to find work. And it’s a small percentage, but it’s still enough that it’s a part of the conversation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so they’re worried that they have to work even harder to achieve even more to make sure that they’ll have a shot at what’s going to be left over after that unknown piece takes a bite out of the workforce.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so they’re worried that they have to work even harder to achieve even more to make sure that they’ll have a shot at what’s going to be left over after that unknown piece takes a bite out of the workforce.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I think those two forces are kind of creating or adding to that pressure cooker as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I think those two forces are kind of creating or adding to that pressure cooker as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Jonathan, thanks for saying that. Yeah, Chris, I mean, I’m wondering if you see, you know, Stuart is talking about worries of insufficiency, right? Essentially that the child is, you know, not — is going to have to face a very difficult economic situation and so on. But the other thing is, is this sense — I’m wondering if you’re seeing that is adding to it — that we’re also sort of living under threat, like the threat of climate change or dangerous AI agents, right, among other things, that are driving parents to put a lot of pressure on their teens.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Jonathan, thanks for saying that. Yeah, Chris, I mean, I’m wondering if you see, you know, Stuart is talking about worries of insufficiency, right? Essentially that the child is, you know, not — is going to have to face a very difficult economic situation and so on. But the other thing is, is this sense — I’m wondering if you’re seeing that is adding to it — that we’re also sort of living under threat, like the threat of climate change or dangerous AI agents, right, among other things, that are driving parents to put a lot of pressure on their teens.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Funk:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think those are all very valid points. And the reality is the society that I grew up in, and even my two older sons who are in their late 20s, early 30s, things have changed just since COVID.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Funk:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think those are all very valid points. And the reality is the society that I grew up in, and even my two older sons who are in their late 20s, early 30s, things have changed just since COVID.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the amount of pressure that’s out there on society, whether it’s the national — the way we communicate with each other nationally started stemming from the very top, the White House, to all these other pressures, as you mentioned, climate change, AI, do I wanna take on student debt and maybe not even find a job that will pay that student debt off in five to 10 years, but it’ll be 20 to 25, 30 years of student debt.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the amount of pressure that’s out there on society, whether it’s the national — the way we communicate with each other nationally started stemming from the very top, the White House, to all these other pressures, as you mentioned, climate change, AI, do I wanna take on student debt and maybe not even find a job that will pay that student debt off in five to 10 years, but it’ll be 20 to 25, 30 years of student debt.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Um, you know, there’s always the exception to the rule. There are certain kids that just by their nature and their intelligence and what have you, they’re going to go — they want to go to MIT, they want to go to Stanford, they’re gonna go to Stanford because they’re just exceptional.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Um, you know, there’s always the exception to the rule. There are certain kids that just by their nature and their intelligence and what have you, they’re going to go — they want to go to MIT, they want to go to Stanford, they’re gonna go to Stanford because they’re just exceptional.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I just think trying to get to the very top colleges is extremely overrated for the majority of students. It’s the college experience that is, just like the high school experience is what’s amazing. And you can go to beautiful, wonderful colleges, get a great education and not have that student debt that some are chasing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I just think trying to get to the very top colleges is extremely overrated for the majority of students. It’s the college experience that is, just like the high school experience is what’s amazing. And you can go to beautiful, wonderful colleges, get a great education and not have that student debt that some are chasing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"\n\u003cp>Um, yeah, maybe I just live in an old world, but one of the issues that we face and we intentionally try to create time for our kids is kids don’t play with their friends in the neighborhood anymore. You don’t go down to the local park and play baseball on the weekend, pick-up baseball in the summertime, because kids are so scheduled now by their families, by their parents, or they’re traveling so much to get to whatever the competition may be. It could be a chess tournament, it could be athletics.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There’s just not enough downtime to allow kids to be kids and to allow them to be creative. Creativity has just fallen off the board, especially in school.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And it doesn’t even sound like, Stuart, that once the kid achieves a top college placement that the issues go away.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, they don’t. And I think one of the things, especially if they’ve suffered with depression or anxiety along the way, parents need to keep in mind that if you look at the causes of kids dropping out from college, cost is a big one. But mental health and emotional challenges are four times more likely than lack of academic preparation leading to kids dropping out.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, they don’t. And I think one of the things, especially if they’ve suffered with depression or anxiety along the way, parents need to keep in mind that if you look at the causes of kids dropping out from college, cost is a big one. But mental health and emotional challenges are four times more likely than lack of academic preparation leading to kids dropping out.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so I think what Chris said is really important. I think we’ve really focused too much on that you have to go to the best college possible or the most selective. It isn’t — you shouldn’t even say best college, most selective, highly prestigious, or your life will be compromised. And I think that’s just a false narrative.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so I think what Chris said is really important. I think we’ve really focused too much on that you have to go to the best college possible or the most selective. It isn’t — you shouldn’t even say best college, most selective, highly prestigious, or your life will be compromised. And I think that’s just a false narrative.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There are many great colleges across this country that students can thrive in.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It’s the end of the hour, but what’s the good news, Stuart? I noted in your book that you have said that not a single one of the mindsets and the situations that these kids find themselves in is fixed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It’s the end of the hour, but what’s the good news, Stuart? I noted in your book that you have said that not a single one of the mindsets and the situations that these kids find themselves in is fixed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think that what I would end with is absolutely so that kids can learn how to manage these mindsets in ways that cause less distress.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think that what I would end with is absolutely so that kids can learn how to manage these mindsets in ways that cause less distress.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I’m encouraged by stories like Chris, where there are communities that are saying, this is not okay. We need to change what we’re doing for our kids, and the changes that need to be made I don’t think have to be revolutionary or too expensive in terms of school demands and culture.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I’m encouraged by stories like Chris, where there are communities that are saying, this is not okay. We need to change what we’re doing for our kids, and the changes that need to be made I don’t think have to be revolutionary or too expensive in terms of school demands and culture.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Stuart Slavin, the book is \u003cem>The Success Trap\u003c/em>. Ananya Kota, Los Altos High School senior. Chris Funk, former superintendent of Dublin Unified. Thanks to all of you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Stuart Slavin, the book is \u003cem>The Success Trap\u003c/em>. Ananya Kota, Los Altos High School senior. Chris Funk, former superintendent of Dublin Unified. Thanks to all of you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Thank you, listeners. Thank you, Jeremy Garza, for producing this segment. You’ve been listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Thank you, listeners. Thank you, Jeremy Garza, for producing this segment. You’ve been listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Tuesday, September 29, 2026 at 10 am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Extreme academic workloads and relentless achievement culture are driving a youth mental health crisis in classrooms nationwide — especially among students trying to get into top colleges. That’s according to Stuart Slavin, a pediatrician who researches how to improve student mental health and the author of “The Success Trap.” We’ll hear from Slavin, a former school administrator and a high school journalist about how to escape “The Success Trap” and how parents can help their kids navigate this pressure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin, \u003c/strong>pediatrician, medical educator, researcher; author, \u003cem>The Success Trap: How the Pressure to Stand Out Is Fueling Anxiety, Depression, and Burnout in Teens—And the Fundamental Fix They Deserve\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota,\u003c/strong> student journalist, Los Altos High School – published an article in May in student paper detailing the pressures students face\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Chris Funk,\u003c/strong> former superintendent, Dublin Unified School District – initiated policy limiting the number of AP/honors courses students can take yearly\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Anxiety, depression, and burnout are increasingly common among high school students, especially these days as they apply to top colleges. Pediatrician Stuart Slavin says the phenomenon that was largely concentrated in affluent neighborhoods two decades ago has spread like a contagion, infecting a wider socioeconomic swath. And far more than smartphones and social media are the culprits. Slavin says it’s the pressure cooker of academic and extracurricular demands: performance expectations from teachers, coaches, parents, and the students themselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And this hour, we hear from a student, a school administrator, and from Slavin, whose new book is called \u003cem>The Success Trap\u003c/em>. And listeners, if this sounds familiar to you, give us a call at 866-733-6786. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786. Are you a student, a recent graduate, a parent of a student? How has academic pressure affected you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’d also like to welcome to the program now Los Altos High School senior Ananya Kota. Ananya, welcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And of course, Stuart Slavin, pediatrician, medical educator and researcher, and author of \u003cem>The Success Trap\u003c/em>. Stuart, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much, Mina. Pleasure to be here with you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Ananya, I’ll start with you. You wrote a piece for your student paper in May about the pressure a student faced. So tell me, what made you write the piece?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> Yeah, of course. So I’ve always kind of been aware of the academic pressure that was in the Bay Area, and generally I felt that it manifested differently in different schools. And I was really curious how the academic pressure affected Los Altos High School in particular.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, I was kind of mulling it over, and while I was thinking about it, unfortunately, a student had committed suicide in one of our school districts nearby, and I think that kind of made me realize just how horrible the academic pressure could be. And I really wanted to understand by speaking to students and getting their experiences, speaking to teachers and understanding how does it affect our school particularly, and why do students feel the need to overperform so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So how were you seeing it manifest? How was it affecting you and your peers?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> I honestly primarily saw it manifest within the student community itself. So, when I started writing the article, I had to — it was a little difficult, honestly — turn myself into an observer of a community I was already so integrated in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I was constantly observing and seeing the interactions between students, where students should be like, “Oh, I just got a B on this test. I’m going to fail.” And I was just thinking in the back of my head, like, no, you’re not going to fail. I mean, the standard is so high, and students are making very casual comments that kind of inflate that standard.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I just think, like, a lot of the times when we get, for example, grades back, or there’s the SAT or the ACT, AP scores, it’s always the highest standard that’s expected among students. If students don’t get a five on their AP exam, they’re automatically disappointed and assume that they’re failing. If they get a B, they’re automatically panicked and assuming, “I’m failing.” Anything less than the standard feels like failing to a lot of the students. That’s sort of the impression that I got while observing my community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Did you find that people were talking about having trouble sleeping, that they were, you know, experiencing some degree of not feeling like they were good enough?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> Definitely. It’s very common for me to hear, like, “Oh, I only got like three hours of sleep. I was studying for this test,” or, “Oh, I barely slept yesterday.” And it feels very normal. But when I think about it objectively, I’m just like, that’s not healthy at all. Like, you should be getting sleep. You should be eating well. But all these basic things are being sacrificed for studying and getting those perfect grades.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I do think that students have placed the entirety of their self-worth on their grades and these numbers and these letters, and you can really see how it affects their mindset, how it affects the basic care they do for themselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I was also struck from the outset that you talked about the Bay Area, how things were specific to the Bay Area in your high school. Tell me about how you think your community plays a role in the pressure that these students feel.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> Of course. So when I was doing research for the article, I was drawn to the city and the Silicon Valley in particular because I noticed that in the Silicon Valley, in the Bay Area, there’s a lot of upper-class people who have very high median incomes. And I thought perhaps that contributed because the standard of success in the Bay Area in particular is very inflated.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s like a tech hub. We see all these successful companies, these successful tech companies. And when students see that, I think they think that’s the standard of success, that’s a baseline level of success. When you’re surrounded by so much success and so much opportunity, if you don’t take that or if you don’t meet that, it can feel automatically like failure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so I think there really is, like, it’s amazing to live here in Silicon Valley and have so much opportunity at your fingertips, but with that opportunity comes like an unsaid sort of expectation to meet all of that and have to achieve that, and everyone else is trying to do the exact same thing as you are.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I was struck by this line in your piece where you say, “Even as I write this article and acknowledge these issues, the idea of breaking away from the culture is scary.” Talk about that. It’s hard even as you’re aware of it, right, to be able to adopt, you know, things that might reduce the pressure yourself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I would say personally I, of course, am in the student community and I feel those pressures firsthand. I think that I also value my academics a lot, and it sometimes feels like, you know, if I get anything less than an A, I’m automatically, like, extremely upset at myself. And I think, like, while perhaps I understand, like, objectively it’s not the end of the world, after you’re just surrounded by that pressure for so many years, it kind of becomes your norm.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You automatically feel those before you can really catch yourself and realize, hey, no, I’m not a failure. I’m feeling I’m gonna fail because I got a B in a class.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I do think that the first step to breaking away, as I said, from these expectations is acknowledgement because it is such a deep-rooted issue that it doesn’t even start in high school. It starts from when your academic journey begins in middle school. You’re taught that, like, academics are the be-all and end-all, and that doesn’t end in high school. It doesn’t — like, and when you go to college, I think when you grow up around that environment, it sticks with you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Would you say it was middle school where you started to feel it, or did you even feel it as early as elementary?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> I would say, like, personally, it didn’t really affect me until high school, but I don’t think that’s the case at all for my peers, because I did see my peers very frequently panicking over their grades.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when I entered as a freshman in high school, I could already see that academic pressure around, and I think that — I don’t think it all of a sudden manifested in the first couple months of freshman year. I think it had been there since middle school, and that’s why so many freshmen were already anxious about their grades.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Stuart, Ananya mentions acknowledgement, and that’s what you’re trying to do, acknowledge this issue. And I imagine what she’s saying also sounds familiar to you after serving more than 18,000 teenagers in some 18 high schools, I understand, including in California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yes, absolutely. The first schools that I looked at were all in the Bay Area. And I have to say, Ananya really encapsulated so beautifully, or eloquently, the challenges kids are facing these days and the pressure-cooker environment that they’re facing in communities across this country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And even your own child was not immune, right? You share a very relatable experience of her feeling like she couldn’t stop to eat dinner because of all the homework she had and bursting into tears.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, this really started me on this journey. So I’m a pediatrician, and I was watching my daughters in a high school that was reputedly kind of the most progressive school in the St. Louis region, but the amounts of homework and academic pressure they were facing was just extraordinary.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so that really launched me on this journey to look at this issue and really raise awareness about it, because I think it could almost be viewed as a problem hiding in plain sight, that we’re so hyper-focused on phones and screens as a source of the adolescent mental health crisis. I have deep concerns about those, but I think it’s led us to kind of ignore this problem, which I think Ananya has really described.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, how do you know that what your daughter was expressing, or what you see happening around you, is not, you know, temporary stress or momentary drama, but a bigger, more serious structural problem?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Well, there are a couple of layers to that that I would say. One is, if your child as an adolescent suffers from depression or anxiety, it markedly increases their likelihood of having those mental health problems as adults.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the other that Ananya kind of alluded to is there are these kind of mindsets. I’ll describe a couple of them. One is maladaptive perfectionism that’s been on the rise for 35 years, where an A-minus or a B isn’t good enough and it feels just terrible. Another is performance as identity. It’s not that you got the score, it’s you are that score.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Those don’t disappear. Kids are internalizing these and then carrying them into adulthood in ways that then can contribute to their distress later as young adults and on into adulthood.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And you have seen this as widespread. Like, what do the stats tell you, and also widening? I quoted you saying that you were also seeing this in much broader economic swaths and also happening younger even than high school. Can you help us understand sort of the scope of what you’re seeing?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the scope I describe in a few ways. I mean, I have done research then in California and Missouri, and also in Ohio. And I also had the opportunity over the last eight years or so in my job to travel the country and just talk to families and talk to kids.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it became very clear that what used to be, I think, really in very affluent communities and on both coasts has spread like wildfire really across the country. And I think to a great degree, it’s understandably kind of — it is driven by, I think, a sense of economic insecurity. A sense that the divide between the haves and the have-nots is growing and that to have a middle-class existence is increasingly difficult.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So a lot of this, I think, is well-intended efforts to launch kids to success, which sadly I don’t think are actually even achieving that goal.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Hmm. Actually, this Discord user Nicole writes — no, well, writes: “This extreme academic pressure is a symptom of our growing inequality.” And I think you have some thoughts on that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re coming up on a break, though, so let me remind listeners that we are talking with Stuart Slavin, a pediatrician and medical educator and researcher and author of the new book \u003cem>The Success Trap\u003c/em>, and Ananya Kota, a student journalist at Los Altos High School.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And with you, are you a high school student or recent graduate? How did academic pressure affect your mental health? If you’re the parent of an adolescent, have you noticed symptoms of anxiety or depression in your child? What did you find helped relieve the stress that comes with high school or college applications? 866-733-6786 is the number.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Stay with us. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. We’re talking this hour about the increasing pressure students are facing and feeling in high school. We’re talking about it with Stuart Slavin, who’s written a new book called \u003cem>The Success Trap: How the Pressure to Stand Out Is Fueling Anxiety, Depression, and Burnout in Teens and the Fundamental Fix They Deserve\u003c/em>. He’s a pediatrician and researcher.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ananya Kota is also with us, a student journalist at Los Altos High School, who published a piece in May in her student paper detailing the pressure students face there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you are joining us at the email address \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, listeners on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum. Tell us if you are a student or a parent of a student and you’ve noticed these types of academic pressures and their effect on students’ mental health.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Are you a teacher or administrator? Are there policies or changes you’ve made at your school that you have found helped improve student mental health? Or what did you find students or parents helped relieve the stress that comes with high school, college admissions and applications, and also with the demands of extracurricular activities?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Listener on Discord writes, “A student’s fear of disappointing their parents often creates more stress than direct parental pressure.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One of the things you were saying, Stuart, was just how much there is concern among parents about economic anxiety and growing inequality as well driving this. What more would you add to what you feel like is leading students to what you’ve described as really unprecedented levels of stress and anxiety?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> You know, I think one way to look at that, Mina, is looking at the survey that we used in these 18 schools, and we asked students to rate 35 different stressors in their life to see how big of a stress factor they were.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And these included things like school-related, obviously, but boyfriend, girlfriend, family issues, health issues, bullying, cyberbullying, social media. And the thing that really struck me is that in every one of the 18 schools, the top-rated stressors, the biggest stressors in kids’ lives, was school- and achievement-related.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And just to add to that point of your really perceptive learner, who said pressure — pressure to not disappoint parents. In our survey, it was actually ranked higher as a greater stressor than direct pressure from parents. So even as parents, if we’re not putting that direct pressure on them, they know our values and sometimes react to those.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The last thing I’ll say about that, which is true, the number one or number two stressor that was cited by kids in every single school was pressure from self. So what they’re doing is reacting to this pressure-cooker environment and then absorbing all of this, and it’s really creating these mindsets that they’re again going to carry with them to adulthood and contribute to future distress as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, I want to bring into the conversation now a former administrator of the California school district, Dublin Unified, Chris Funk. Chris, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Funk:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So your district is trying something new, and I know you just left as an administrator in the summer, but you really set the stage for this experiment, essentially. What are you trying to do in Dublin?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Funk:\u003c/strong> I just retired in June after 36 years in public education, and the majority of that spent between either two K-12 districts and one high school district.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It was clear to me that this zero-sum race to the top to get to the best colleges was causing students to have excessive academic course loading that seemed like they were just chasing that grade point average, that boost that you get by taking an honors or Advanced Placement course, as opposed to for the love of learning, the engagement of really trying to be masterful of the content that you’re learning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so in Dublin last year, the board passed a resolution that limited the number of courses, honors and Advanced Placement courses, that a student could take in a single year as well as across their four years. So they could take up to four classes combined, honors and AP, in a single year, and up to 11 across their four-year high school time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And what are you hoping the effect of this change will be?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Funk:\u003c/strong> Well, we’re trying to promote more balance, student well-being and a healthier school culture. Because at all three of my systems that I’ve been a part of, there has been mental health has been kind of that stigma. That stigma, I think, has been reduced now after COVID, and now it becomes an expectation that wellness, mental health, is such an important, vital part of everyone’s life, not just high school students, grownups also.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so we’re just trying to focus on creating a more healthy environment, change that mindset that Dr. Slavin has been talking about. And also focus on all the other amazing aspects of being an adolescent in high school, whether it’s athletics, whether it is extracurricular activities like band and choir and drama and dance, all the amazing things that happen in high school, and less focus on just the academic course loading.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And what was the reaction to this decision to limit the number of AP classes offered? And similarly, Discord user Jeff writes, “Did you get pushback from families who worried the AP class limit would disadvantage their kids in college admissions?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Funk:\u003c/strong> Well, I had a unanimous decision by my board, and my board represents the entire district. So that’s a good sign. And yes, there’s always going to be some pushback on any policy that you implement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I believe the pushback was minor compared to the larger conversation we had around grading, because we did change our grading policy prior to the resolution on limiting AP courses. But most of it was around the fact that families and students felt like they were going to be put at a disadvantage, and just really not understanding the academic entrance requirements into colleges and universities, the idea of what is the official school profile, that you’re really just competing against your own peers at your school and you’re not competing against other schools across the nation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the reality is that you can get to the very best colleges without having to overload on your course taking. So it’s really about education.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And universities, they do know or have profiles on high schools, right, about how many APs are offered there, so they recognize that if a student is taking a certain number that may be less than another district, it’s just because that district simply didn’t offer that many of them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Funk:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. That’s exactly it. That is why each school and each district has their school profile.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the other piece is that there is this idea that the more classes I take, the better chance I have of getting into this college. And the reality is every college, every university recalculates the GPA, and they have the base level, 22 courses, 24 courses that they actually take the GPA of. So if you take 30 courses, six of those courses, depending on which college or university you apply for, aren’t even going to count because they’re not going to calculate that in your GPA.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so what we’re trying to create in Dublin was this concept of focus on the areas that you love, do the very best and master those areas. Focus on the other aspects of being an adolescent and what colleges look for in terms of your extracurricular activities, your community service, and all being that whole child. It has been lost with this race to the top.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It’s very interesting because I hear echoes in what Chris Funk is saying with what you’ve said about, maybe we have lost our understanding of what successful means.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think that’s exactly right, and I have to say first, kudos to you, Chris, and your board for taking these actions. I think a lot of schools have been really reluctant to take these kind of measures.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One of the key things, I think, for listeners to really understand is that I think there’s this idea that if you back off, the performance is going to drop.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A couple of things I would say to counter that: In every school I looked at, kids reported on average getting six and a half hours of sleep per night. The adolescent brain needs eight to ten, so at that level they’re cognitively and emotionally compromised.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then the other piece that I think is really important stems from my work with medical students, in which we found high rates of depression and anxiety, reduced pressure, reduced demands, and not only did their mental health improve dramatically, their performance improved as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think there’s kind of this false narrative that if we back off, if we reduce the pressure, that somehow performance is going to drop and they aren’t going to be as competitive. And I think that’s just false.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Ananya, though, I was struck by a Chronicle piece that covered what Dublin was doing, and it quoted a student, or just a recent graduate from Dublin, as saying that students are just going to find other ways to stand out if they can’t stand out based on the number of AP courses they’ve taken.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What do you think about that? Do you think that’s likely true?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> I think partially yes, just because, I mean, the AP cap has also been discussed among our districts, and I certainly did hear a lot of pushback from my peers at the idea of being limited about the number of APs. I frankly think some of them find it scary.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there is also, I know you mentioned it before, like a stigma around extracurriculars, how many you need to take, how they need to stand out. And I think some of that pressure will shift.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But also I do think academics and extracurriculars are two very separate entities, and I do think limiting the number of APs can potentially really help students focus academically and really take the classes they’re passionate about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I do unfortunately think that it won’t eliminate the pressure and they’ll still feel stressed about it. So I think it will help them, but that pressure might unfortunately feel more prominent just because there’s that underlying worry that if I’m not taking enough AP classes, am I going to be competitive, or do I need to make up for this in my extracurriculars?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think it honestly completely kind of depends on the student and how they receive that. But yeah, I think they can be received in multiple ways.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me go to caller Naomi in Berkeley. Naomi, go ahead, you’re on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> Hi, my students graduated from Berkeley High in 2023 and 2025. And I think the pressure comes not only from the academic achievements, but the community and the parents of friends and the peers themselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>My kids were admitted to fine, decent state and UC schools. And they heard comments from parents at parties or from their peers that they would never allow their kids to apply to that school, or they would never go to that school as only their backup school, and I found that to be, as a parent, to be very distressing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>My kids were fine students. They had A’s and B’s. I did not allow them, or do not encourage them, to max out their APs. They had, you know, they were varsity athletes, and still, by their peers and the parents in our community, they heard very negative comments, and it was very hurtful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Naomi, thank you for sharing that. Stuart, what have you found are sort of the most common or problematic ways that parents in communities inadvertently add pressure to kids?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so back to that point that pressure to not disappoint parents, even if you’re not putting that direct pressure on, they may know your values by, you know, when you’re talking to friends and somebody mentions that their child is going to Harvard or Stanford, etc., and they just light up. The kids can know your value.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I think what your caller also really alludes to is that this is widespread in the culture, and I think in some ways it requires some courage on the part of parents and kids to say, no, I’m not going to be influenced and affected by that. I have a sense of my self-worth as a human being that isn’t tied to going to the most, you know, selective, prestigious college possible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Jane writes, “My 18-year-old has dealt with depression and anxiety and expresses desire to relieve their stress with drugs and alcohol. I feel like saying, well, just don’t do that. But just like abstinence, I know saying just say no is unrealistic. How would you suggest talking to a young adult about drugs and alcohol and moderation in a world filled with anxiety?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it sounds like if they’re using it to relieve anxiety, Stuart.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Oh, it’s a very difficult situation, I feel, for that person, and I think that’s kind of the downstream consequences of having a child who’s living in such a pressurized environment as an adolescent that they enter young adulthood really at risk.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in terms of how to talk to them, I guess, you know, I think with a supportive approach, without a judgmental approach, and ideally encouraging them with you to seek care from a health professional of some kind.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But it is, I think, these are the kind of hidden consequences of what may happen if our kids do feel such enormous pressure and demands as they’re in their early development.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Laura writes, “How do we encourage a kid to work and do well, to put in the time to understand the schoolwork without putting dangerous pressures on them?” Stuart.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I guess what I would say is one of the things that I think is important is to focus less. We have a tendency — how’d that test go? What kind of scores are you getting? How’s your grade point average?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And these electronic dashboards, I think, have become a real problem, where it’s not just kids checking them furiously, but parents are as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think it’s vitally important, it’s just vitally important, for parents to acknowledge and celebrate other identities than their kids’ academic performance: their humor, their creativity, their kindness, their ability to work with others. There are so many things that we need to recognize in our kids that I think get lost in our daily conversations of left cars.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Talk about where it can lead. You mentioned the phenomenon of crashing out. What is that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Oh, crashing out, I think, Ananya, I’d love to hear what she says, where, you know, what looks like a minor setback to anybody else, you know, if anybody else looks at somebody who gets an A-minus or a B-plus, and, you know, the kid thinks it’s a failure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s not a failure, but that’s what it feels like. And that’s what these mindsets do. You know, you have the discomfort of a less-than-ideal performance. But the story, the narrative you add to it, that you attach to it, can make the pain much, much worse.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think there are skills that kids can easily learn and that parents can use. Tell them and help them understand these are just stories you’re telling yourself that really aren’t accurate and are harmful. And helping kids change those thought processes, I think, could be incredibly helpful on their journey to adulthood.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And you write that they manifest as essentially an acute cognitive and emotional breakdown, right? From explosive outbursts to actually emotional withdrawal.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think parents just can’t really even comprehend. Again, it’s hard for them to understand why this, what looks like a minor setback, um, feels so profoundly painful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And again, I think it’s what Ananya had described is this culture that people live in, and it’s not just parents, it’s just, you know, teachers, coaches, et cetera, peers that are also creating this environment that is profound.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And again, as you said, the crashing out can be just breakdowns, perseverative thinking where they just can’t stop thinking about this problem. You know, meltdowns, tears, or anger as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Ananya, we’re coming up on a break, but you wrote about a friend distancing themselves from your friend group for months. How were you able to reach out?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> I noticed it initially because she stopped coming to sit with lunch with us, and she stopped talking in our group chats. And I don’t think the pressure she felt was purposeful, I think, because our friends are very aware of the academic pressure, but a lot of them are extremely successful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>All my friends are wonderful. I have a friend that’s going to Stanford and another one is going to Barnard. And I think even just being around such immensely successful people can make you feel, “I’m not doing enough.” And I think that’s what she felt.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it’s exactly what he described, the emotional withdrawal. That was the aspect that she was facing. And it really manifested in, not in necessarily like outward outburst, but inward.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the increasing academic pressures on high school students today. More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. We’re talking this hour with Los Altos High School senior Ananya Kota, former superintendent of Dublin Unified School District, Chris Funk, and pediatrician, researcher and author of the new book \u003cem>The Success Trap\u003c/em>, Stuart Slavin, about how to address the increasing anxiety, depression and burnout that students are experiencing as a result of increased parental and social expectations and the desire to stand out in a college admissions process that seems to be demanding more AP courses and extracurriculars.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Join the conversation with your own experiences and questions about how to address this at 866-733-6786, at the email address \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. You can find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, and Instagram. We’re at KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Let me go to AJ in Mountain View. Hi, AJ, you’re on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> Hi, thanks for taking me on. I actually wanted to share a comment with regards to the pressure even though that comes from extracurricular activities that contribute to, that are important for college.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I actually know this family. I mean, the child is all of 10 years old at this point. He’s into diving. There’s math class, there’s — I had no class, but of others, but what stood out for me was when the parent actually created a website, took some pictures, printed a calendar, and sold them to fund an NGO.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And all of this to support his future college admissions. My concern was when a child is all of 10, I believe it’s going to be under 10 more years before he enters, and the pressure is already on. And this is in Los Altos, so I understand. I hear what Ananya is actually talking about. I actually see it around me and my neighbors.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Concerning. Well, AJ, thanks so much for sharing that. Stuart, would love to get your reactions to what AJ is describing, and it also seems to underscore the earlier point that you are seeing this younger and younger.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> When I first started writing this book, and much of the research that supports it was really focused on high school students. But as I was talking to more people and I heard more and more stories of this kind of behavior, I think what it’s reflective of is a phenomenon called intensive parenting, where parents feel enormous social pressure to have their children in a lot of enrichment activities that increasingly have become much more intensive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The old days of just, like, you know, rec-league baseball has been replaced by club sports that go year-round, involve travel, sometimes enormous pressure and sense of competition on the kids. So, yeah, you have to wonder and worry about the impact on, goodness, a 10-year-old child. And it starts earlier.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’ve talked to parents of five- and six-year-olds. A quick story, which is a mom who told me, another mom said, “Do you have a soccer coach for your six-year-old?” And she said, “No.” “Well, he’s never gonna get into the travel team.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think those pressures are widespread and they’re starting earlier and earlier.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> One of the things you’ve warned against, Stuart, is parent as problem solver, the increasing role they take in that. What do you see as the dangers and how can they pull back?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I have to admit I was a problem solver in many ways as a parent, and I think there’s a tendency for us to jump in when your kids are struggling. And while that’s important and at times to do, I think what you have to recognize is that if you jump in too quickly and intervene too aggressively, it has unintended consequences of reducing their own self-confidence in dealing with their problems, undermining their ability potentially to deal with challenges in the future.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, in many ways, we should be viewing adolescents as this kind of training ground for adulthood, and they need practice in working through and solving their problems as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So you should be there to support. Don’t abandon your kids, but don’t fall into the tendency to jump in too quickly to try to rescue and solve problems.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Scott in Sacramento writes, “Does involvement in extracurricular activities like after-school sports or clubs help relieve that stress of everyday student lives, or does it just compound it? As a parent, I feel that it would relieve it, but I didn’t have social media and other modern-day pressures that kids experience nowadays.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What do you think, Ananya? Do you think that extracurriculars — do you find them to be a place of relief or do you find them to be added stress?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> I think it can be both. Honestly, personally, an extracurricular I find that stress relieving, as I do cross-country, and it’s so nice to have a dedicated time period where I can just exercise. And I know it’s a really good medium of stress relief. So that’s an example of one extracurricular that I think is stress relief.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But also, in turn, I think in the back of my head, “Oh, this is taking a couple hours out of my day, so when am I going to do homework? When am I going to do this? When do I do that?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think it’s a mix of both, and the key to finding an extracurricular that can do stress relief is just time management, knowing that, oh, if I’m gonna do this sport, can I have a time where I can do this other extracurricular or take the time to do homework this other time period?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So don’t cram like seven extracurriculars into one day, because I think that starts to make it more of a pressure than a stress relief. But I think if you can find the key number of extracurriculars you genuinely enjoy, it can definitely be a stress relief.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Have you found helpful, Ananya, as a high school student deep in this, right? Like strategies or things that you have found helped work for you in terms of relieving the stress and pressure?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ananya Kota:\u003c/strong> I think the biggest thing is just being very aware of my limits as a student. I think, like, obviously being surrounded by so much pressure, it’s definitely affected me to the point where, like, sometimes I’ll find myself being like, “Oh, I should have taken that AP class,” even if it’s like not a class I’m necessarily, like, very passionate about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I think just having a support group around you, friends who don’t encourage, like, the academic pressure or don’t say things like, “Oh, you didn’t get an A on that test. Well, what are you doing?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think being very aware of your own limits and also communicating that to your peers, especially to your parents, as they’re your main support, can really help with developing an understanding of, this is what I can do and I’m going to stick with it because I don’t want to burn out and I don’t want to fall down that rabbit hole of I’m not doing enough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Chris, I’m curious what you’ve observed with regard to, you know, parents who seem to have a healthy relationship with their kids’ success levels.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Funk:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you see it as has been mentioned. It starts younger and younger. But in terms of the academics, one of the key things or guidelines that happens — measure points — is in middle school math acceleration.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I can’t tell you, in all three of my school districts that I was in in 36 years, the goal to take calculus by your junior or even your sophomore year is the new trend. And you start ninth grade in Algebra 2, which is just completely a mindset that has to be changed, because every student that really wants to take calculus can get there in four years of high school math.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For some, it might require taking a summer course or a bridge course. But for most students, if they are applicable to taking calculus, they’ll be able to do it. But to have kids start to accelerate, taking algebra and geometry in middle school, I think that is way too much pressure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, same families that put their kids in math acceleration, that also put them in academic classes in the summertime. You know, summertime really should be that time to explore other passions that you have. Just like with teachers, you’ve got to recharge your battery, because the school year is not a sprint, it’s a marathon.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And there are certain stages throughout the year, October, December, end of February, that kids hit the wall, teachers hit the wall. And you got to be able to have that well-groundedness that’s important.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think one other aspect that we haven’t really talked about is that this policy is not a silver bullet. It’s to address one aspect of the academic stress. But grading is a huge discussion that may be for another day, but we have kids that are just chasing points.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that grading actually starts even in elementary school, where they don’t normally have letter grades. But this extra credit, chasing that extra credit, bringing in paper towel dispensers, bringing in hand cleanser for extra points — all that does is boost your grade, but doesn’t necessarily translate, or certainly doesn’t translate, to mastery of that content.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When you’re only chasing points, that’s another stressor on kids that the grading policy has to be addressed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Stuart, you have a whole section about how many of the kids you spoke with have painted a picture of a lack of joy in their lives, which I really feel like is what Chris has been getting to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it is. I think that was the thing that was most striking to me. And one thing I’ll add on to a comment that Ananya made about cross-country: I think she seems to be approaching it in a healthy way, but I’ve talked to people, and this was one of the things that surprised me as I talked to kids, is that the perfectionism they had in their academics was also there in their extracurriculars.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So if they had a disappointing cross-country time, they would just beat up on themselves and ruminate on this thought for just forever. So, this is a deep problem that I think kind of is — infiltrates, you know, all aspects of their life. Everything can become a competition.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when everything’s a competition, like the idea of just fun and joy disappears.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And last thing I think I would say about that that’s especially true: It isn’t the activities themselves that are a problem. It’s the nature of the activities. There’s great research that shows that it’s not the amount of time you spend in these, but it’s how competitive, how pressured, how controlled by adults is it. Those are the things that seem to correlate with adverse mental health outcomes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think we do need to, like, let’s bring some joy and fun back into the lives of our kids.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Do you see the turn to smartphones and screens or social media in part as a symptom of this lack of joy?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> I think that’s such a good question, and I think how I’d answer that is, yeah, and brief, yes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think one of the things that’s really striking to me about it is that our approach largely is, you know, kind of pushing these companies to change their algorithms, et cetera. That’s great. But a lot of it’s like prohibition, like let’s take your phones when you walk in the door at school, et cetera, et cetera.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think we need to be working on the other side of the engagement. I think kids are turning to these devices because in many ways their virtual lives are more interesting and pleasant than their real ones.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So one of the ways we maybe can work to get kids off their screens is actually to make their real lives more pleasant, more joyful, more enjoyable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me remind listeners, you are listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. I’m going to caller Jonathan in San Francisco. Go ahead, Jonathan. You’re on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> I mean, I think this is a great topic that you guys have covered in a very well-rounded way. As a parent of a freshman and a seventh grader, I’m kind of in the middle of seeing a lot of this happening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think there’s kind of a bifurcated set of forces that haven’t entirely been hit on yet on both sides of the collegiate experience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On the high school side, more and more, as parents, we keep hearing, and the kids you’re hearing, but straight A is kind of the entry level, the bare minimum of what you need to get accepted at the top colleges. You need to have published papers. You need to be a part of research projects at reputable institutions. They’re not even just looking at the AP courses you took, they’re looking at how many AP courses did your high school offer? And then what percentage of those did you take?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so those pressures really mount on the kids because I hear the kids talking about it a lot and comparing their strategies for getting into these sought-after schools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then on the other side of the collegiate experience, looking at where AI is going, I hear kids talking, a lot of my kids’ friends talking about, we’re worried that there’s not gonna be as many jobs. We’re hearing, you know, people that have graduated into college are now struggling to find work. And it’s a small percentage, but it’s still enough that it’s a part of the conversation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so they’re worried that they have to work even harder to achieve even more to make sure that they’ll have a shot at what’s going to be left over after that unknown piece takes a bite out of the workforce.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think those two forces are kind of creating or adding to that pressure cooker as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Jonathan, thanks for saying that. Yeah, Chris, I mean, I’m wondering if you see, you know, Stuart is talking about worries of insufficiency, right? Essentially that the child is, you know, not — is going to have to face a very difficult economic situation and so on. But the other thing is, is this sense — I’m wondering if you’re seeing that is adding to it — that we’re also sort of living under threat, like the threat of climate change or dangerous AI agents, right, among other things, that are driving parents to put a lot of pressure on their teens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Funk:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think those are all very valid points. And the reality is the society that I grew up in, and even my two older sons who are in their late 20s, early 30s, things have changed just since COVID.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the amount of pressure that’s out there on society, whether it’s the national — the way we communicate with each other nationally started stemming from the very top, the White House, to all these other pressures, as you mentioned, climate change, AI, do I wanna take on student debt and maybe not even find a job that will pay that student debt off in five to 10 years, but it’ll be 20 to 25, 30 years of student debt.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, you know, there’s always the exception to the rule. There are certain kids that just by their nature and their intelligence and what have you, they’re going to go — they want to go to MIT, they want to go to Stanford, they’re gonna go to Stanford because they’re just exceptional.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I just think trying to get to the very top colleges is extremely overrated for the majority of students. It’s the college experience that is, just like the high school experience is what’s amazing. And you can go to beautiful, wonderful colleges, get a great education and not have that student debt that some are chasing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, yeah, maybe I just live in an old world, but one of the issues that we face and we intentionally try to create time for our kids is kids don’t play with their friends in the neighborhood anymore. You don’t go down to the local park and play baseball on the weekend, pick-up baseball in the summertime, because kids are so scheduled now by their families, by their parents, or they’re traveling so much to get to whatever the competition may be. It could be a chess tournament, it could be athletics.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s just not enough downtime to allow kids to be kids and to allow them to be creative. Creativity has just fallen off the board, especially in school.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And it doesn’t even sound like, Stuart, that once the kid achieves a top college placement that the issues go away.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, they don’t. And I think one of the things, especially if they’ve suffered with depression or anxiety along the way, parents need to keep in mind that if you look at the causes of kids dropping out from college, cost is a big one. But mental health and emotional challenges are four times more likely than lack of academic preparation leading to kids dropping out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so I think what Chris said is really important. I think we’ve really focused too much on that you have to go to the best college possible or the most selective. It isn’t — you shouldn’t even say best college, most selective, highly prestigious, or your life will be compromised. And I think that’s just a false narrative.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There are many great colleges across this country that students can thrive in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It’s the end of the hour, but what’s the good news, Stuart? I noted in your book that you have said that not a single one of the mindsets and the situations that these kids find themselves in is fixed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart Slavin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think that what I would end with is absolutely so that kids can learn how to manage these mindsets in ways that cause less distress.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I’m encouraged by stories like Chris, where there are communities that are saying, this is not okay. We need to change what we’re doing for our kids, and the changes that need to be made I don’t think have to be revolutionary or too expensive in terms of school demands and culture.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Stuart Slavin, the book is \u003cem>The Success Trap\u003c/em>. Ananya Kota, Los Altos High School senior. Chris Funk, former superintendent of Dublin Unified. Thanks to all of you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thank you, listeners. Thank you, Jeremy Garza, for producing this segment. You’ve been listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Announcer:\u003c/strong> Funds for the production of \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> are provided by the Jenerosity Family Fund and the members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Tuesday, August 18, 2026 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The San Andreas Fault is under more pressure now than it has been in the last 1,000 years. That’s according to new research from seismologists who study earthquakes along the Pacific Rim. With recent earthquakes in Japan, Colombia and Venezuela making headlines, we look at the latest science, how prepared California is for “the Big One” and why we still can’t predict earthquakes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Katherine Sharer, \u003c/strong>geologist, U.S. Geological Survey\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Wendy Bohon, \u003c/strong>seismic hazards and earthquake engineering branch chief, California Geological Survey\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Brian Strong, \u003c/strong>chief resilience officer, San Francisco Office of Resilience and Capital Planning\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Earthquake preparedness may have taken a backseat to wildfires and other major issues California faces, but seismologists say it wouldn’t be a bad idea to make it top of mind again. That’s because sections of the San Andreas Fault are at their highest level of strain in the last thousand years. And there’s only one way to meaningfully release that pressure: a big earthquake.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So where might the big one hit, and what kind of damage could it create? Joining me first is Kate Sharer, geologist with the U.S. Geological Survey and co-author of the recent article in the Journal of Geophysical Research about stress accumulation along the San Andreas Fault. Kate, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> Hi, thanks so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So many Californians have been hearing about the San Andreas Fault all our lives, but can you remind us how far it stretches, what makes it unique?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. It’s quite long. It extends all the way from Northern California down through the Bay Area, all through the more quiet sections that we don’t tend to frequent in Central California, and then goes along the backside of the mountains here in Southern California and finally cuts through into the Salton Sea. So it’s quite long.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And it acts as the primary boundary, right, between the Pacific and North American plates?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. Most of the slip rate between those two plates slowly and inexorably sort of accumulates along the San Andreas. You know, in the Bay Area, you guys all know your 1906 earthquake, and we have one down here in Southern California. Our equivalent would be the one that occurred in 1857 as the largest earthquake that we had in historic times on the San Andreas.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So then what kind of magnitude quake is the San Andreas capable of?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> It would be quite reasonable to see something between 6 and then certainly approaching 8. We know from looking at the length of the earthquake in 1906 and also in 1857 that those earthquakes were around 7.9 or 8. We didn’t have seismometers then, so we have to do it by looking at about how long the rupture was and calculating estimated magnitude. So it’s done a little differently, but those two give us evidence that we can expect very large earthquakes on the system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And even though the San Andreas is infamous, you’re saying that really the last significant rupture along that main fault is 1906 in San Francisco and 1857 in Los Angeles. So the ones we’ve had in between, right? Like the Napa quake and the Northridge quake and even Loma Prieta was not along that main fault.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> That’s right. Loma Prieta is a little bit of a question mark, but really most of the stress that was released in those earthquakes — Napa, where we had Ridgecrest and other ones, Northridge down here in Southern California — those are on the distributed network of faults that surround the San Andreas. So although the San Andreas takes up the lion’s share of the tectonic motion between the plates, we have all these other faults that also can contribute to the hazard underneath our feet.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. So in the absence of major quake activity along the main fault, what has it been doing all this time?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> It’s been accumulating energy. So we often talk about — you hear the analogy that the plates move about as fast as your nails grow. So very slowly, you know, the plates are just moving past each other. But when you get close to these faults, they are locked for the most part. And so you can think of it like a coiled spring or like a stick that you’re trying to break. You keep putting energy into that, eventually that stick will snap. And so the analogy for an earthquake is the fault snaps and releases all of the, you know, decades to centuries of strain that have accumulated along that fault, and it has to be released in large earthquakes like you said in the opener.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> And really, the small ones don’t do it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Correct. They don’t really do anything for us to dig, except for, you know, very important, which is to remind us to be prepared and that we do live in an active tectonic environment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So essentially you’re saying it’s not a question of if the fault will release this pressure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> It’s when. Yeah, I think we can expect in Southern California and Northern California that we’ve had earthquakes in the past. We’ll certainly experience them in the future. I know many people want to know when it’s going to occur. And I like to emphasize that, although that’s useful, there’s many things, and I think we’ll get into this a little bit more in the second half. But from a preparedness standpoint and engineering, we need to know now kind of about the average time between earthquakes, not necessarily if they’re gonna happen on a Tuesday, so that we can design buildings and bridges and hospitals to be prepared for those whenever they do occur.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Well, I want to invite listeners into the conversation. What questions do you have about the San Andreas Fault, the stress it’s under, and the risks that it poses? And listeners, what earthquakes have you experienced and how are you preparing, or what questions do you have about how to prepare? You can tell us by emailing forum at kqed.org, finding us on Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook or Instagram. We’re at KQED Forum. And you can call us at 866-733-6786. 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So where are the biggest areas of pressure? What region of the fault did you home in on, Kate?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> The study, and it’s received a lot of attention, I think the title and the idea that the stress is at this highest level that we’ve seen in a thousand years is very striking to people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> So for folks that have kind of been hearing this over the last couple of months, I would emphasize that the paper has to calculate that. We don’t have any technique or ability to actually measure directly how much stress is accumulating along a fault network. So we know about how fast the energy is accumulating, and we can sort of estimate how it’s been released in past earthquakes. And that’s how we come up with an estimate of how much is still around today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, another idea that I like to put in folks’ heads is that earthquakes happen really quite deep, and this is why we can’t measure the stress along the fault directly. So when you’re flying in an airplane and the pilot says, all right, we’ve reached 30,000 feet, you can, you know, undo your seatbelt, that’s about the same height above the ground as earthquakes, actually. Big earthquakes are generated below the ground. So we’re talking about events and big amounts of energy and complex systems that are quite deep. And we don’t have any techniques that would facilitate us really penetrating that deep with, say, drilling. There’s some that reached halfway there, but not all the way. So that’s a little background on the paper.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, but tell me, you focused on something called the Cajon Pass.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> Sure. That’s an interesting area in Southern California and has received a lot of attention because it’s an infrastructure corridor. It’s also where the San Andreas and the San Jacinto Fault cut through all of that infrastructure. So the San Jacinto Fault is sort of the sister fault to the San Andreas. Down here in the Bay Area, you have the Hayward Fault. It takes up also a reasonable portion of the tectonic stress.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so there’s been quite an emphasis on Cajon Pass because it’s where I-10 is, I-15, all of the gas and electric lines come through there, or many of them. So it’s really a lifeline corridor. And so understanding the history of earthquakes through there is important.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in the study, we looked at how stress has been accumulated and released over the last thousand years by looking at the geologic record. And we find that it is a little bit higher than it has been over the past, according to the dates that we have for those prehistoric earthquakes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And so basically it’s in a position now where, I guess, that the current stress level is similar to what preceded previous —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> Major ruptures? That’s right. It’s been about the same amount of time, but sort of the average time between earthquakes in that area were a little bit longer than the average. And that’s consistent with, you know, long-term estimates for hazard in Southern California that put the odds of large earthquakes quite high for us because of the time period between the elapsed time since previous large earthquakes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Kate, can you help us wrap our mind around if that area does rupture with a 7.8 or so magnitude earthquake? Since we really have not known one, as I understand now from preparing for the show, in the modern era — one of that magnitude not since 1906. So, you know, if it was to strike the Southern San Andreas around the area that you looked at, what would happen?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> Sure. The way I like to present that is that people that have been around California for a while have experienced sort of mid-magnitude 6 earthquakes, so Loma Prieta and Northridge. If they lived in the Mojave Desert, they’ve experienced some sevens. Those tend to — and Northridge and Loma Prieta are good examples of earthquakes that are very impactful to sort of part of your region.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So here in Southern California, you know, the San Fernando Valley was certainly impacted quite strongly by the Northridge earthquake. The difference between that and a large earthquake that, when you’re getting up to magnitudes of 7.5 and larger, is that you’re starting to expand the damage over a much broader area. So the shaking happens to more buildings, the fault ruptures more lifelines and roads as the earthquake traverses the system. And so the impacts just sort of expand outward. They may be slightly stronger felt in some places, but overall you just start to increase the number of people and towns that are impacted directly by the earthquake.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I read that the violent shaking could be felt not just in Riverside and San Bernardino, but in Orange, you know, Los Angeles, and maybe even Ventura.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> Yes, that’s right. In some of the ground motion models, we expect that you would have significant shaking pretty far out as the waves traverse through the basins of Southern California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Trish in Redwood City asks, given all of our technology, is there any way that the pressure on the faults can be alleviated in the same way that avalanches are averted? Like, is there anything we can do besides a giant earthquake?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> It’s a great question, but there is not. It’s so much energy that we don’t really know where we would exactly start the event. And we also don’t know exactly what would happen. So I think it’s the kind of thing that’s only in sci-fi movies, basically.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Kate Sharer, geologist with the U.S. Geological Survey, about the historic level of pressure building up along the San Andreas Fault and what that means. And you, our listeners, are joining the conversation, and we’ll have more with you and with Kate and more guests after the break. Stay with us. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The San Andreas Fault is under more pressure now than it has been in the last 1,000 years. That’s according to new research from seismologists who study earthquakes along the Pacific Rim. With recent earthquakes in Japan, Colombia and Venezuela making headlines, we look at the latest science, how prepared California is for “the Big One” and why we still can’t predict earthquakes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Earthquake preparedness may have taken a backseat to wildfires and other major issues California faces, but seismologists say it wouldn’t be a bad idea to make it top of mind again. That’s because sections of the San Andreas Fault are at their highest level of strain in the last thousand years. And there’s only one way to meaningfully release that pressure: a big earthquake.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Earthquake preparedness may have taken a backseat to wildfires and other major issues California faces, but seismologists say it wouldn’t be a bad idea to make it top of mind again. That’s because sections of the San Andreas Fault are at their highest level of strain in the last thousand years. And there’s only one way to meaningfully release that pressure: a big earthquake.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So where might the big one hit, and what kind of damage could it create? Joining me first is Kate Sharer, geologist with the U.S. Geological Survey and co-author of the recent article in the Journal of Geophysical Research about stress accumulation along the San Andreas Fault. Kate, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So where might the big one hit, and what kind of damage could it create? Joining me first is Kate Sharer, geologist with the U.S. Geological Survey and co-author of the recent article in the Journal of Geophysical Research about stress accumulation along the San Andreas Fault. Kate, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> Hi, thanks so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So many Californians have been hearing about the San Andreas Fault all our lives, but can you remind us how far it stretches, what makes it unique?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So many Californians have been hearing about the San Andreas Fault all our lives, but can you remind us how far it stretches, what makes it unique?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. It’s quite long. It extends all the way from Northern California down through the Bay Area, all through the more quiet sections that we don’t tend to frequent in Central California, and then goes along the backside of the mountains here in Southern California and finally cuts through into the Salton Sea. So it’s quite long.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. It’s quite long. It extends all the way from Northern California down through the Bay Area, all through the more quiet sections that we don’t tend to frequent in Central California, and then goes along the backside of the mountains here in Southern California and finally cuts through into the Salton Sea. So it’s quite long.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And it acts as the primary boundary, right, between the Pacific and North American plates?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. Most of the slip rate between those two plates slowly and inexorably sort of accumulates along the San Andreas. You know, in the Bay Area, you guys all know your 1906 earthquake, and we have one down here in Southern California. Our equivalent would be the one that occurred in 1857 as the largest earthquake that we had in historic times on the San Andreas.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. Most of the slip rate between those two plates slowly and inexorably sort of accumulates along the San Andreas. You know, in the Bay Area, you guys all know your 1906 earthquake, and we have one down here in Southern California. Our equivalent would be the one that occurred in 1857 as the largest earthquake that we had in historic times on the San Andreas.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So then what kind of magnitude quake is the San Andreas capable of?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> It would be quite reasonable to see something between 6 and then certainly approaching 8. We know from looking at the length of the earthquake in 1906 and also in 1857 that those earthquakes were around 7.9 or 8. We didn’t have seismometers then, so we have to do it by looking at about how long the rupture was and calculating estimated magnitude. So it’s done a little differently, but those two give us evidence that we can expect very large earthquakes on the system.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> It would be quite reasonable to see something between 6 and then certainly approaching 8. We know from looking at the length of the earthquake in 1906 and also in 1857 that those earthquakes were around 7.9 or 8. We didn’t have seismometers then, so we have to do it by looking at about how long the rupture was and calculating estimated magnitude. So it’s done a little differently, but those two give us evidence that we can expect very large earthquakes on the system.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And even though the San Andreas is infamous, you’re saying that really the last significant rupture along that main fault is 1906 in San Francisco and 1857 in Los Angeles. So the ones we’ve had in between, right? Like the Napa quake and the Northridge quake and even Loma Prieta was not along that main fault.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And even though the San Andreas is infamous, you’re saying that really the last significant rupture along that main fault is 1906 in San Francisco and 1857 in Los Angeles. So the ones we’ve had in between, right? Like the Napa quake and the Northridge quake and even Loma Prieta was not along that main fault.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> That’s right. Loma Prieta is a little bit of a question mark, but really most of the stress that was released in those earthquakes — Napa, where we had Ridgecrest and other ones, Northridge down here in Southern California — those are on the distributed network of faults that surround the San Andreas. So although the San Andreas takes up the lion’s share of the tectonic motion between the plates, we have all these other faults that also can contribute to the hazard underneath our feet.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> That’s right. Loma Prieta is a little bit of a question mark, but really most of the stress that was released in those earthquakes — Napa, where we had Ridgecrest and other ones, Northridge down here in Southern California — those are on the distributed network of faults that surround the San Andreas. So although the San Andreas takes up the lion’s share of the tectonic motion between the plates, we have all these other faults that also can contribute to the hazard underneath our feet.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. So in the absence of major quake activity along the main fault, what has it been doing all this time?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. So in the absence of major quake activity along the main fault, what has it been doing all this time?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> It’s been accumulating energy. So we often talk about — you hear the analogy that the plates move about as fast as your nails grow. So very slowly, you know, the plates are just moving past each other. But when you get close to these faults, they are locked for the most part. And so you can think of it like a coiled spring or like a stick that you’re trying to break. You keep putting energy into that, eventually that stick will snap. And so the analogy for an earthquake is the fault snaps and releases all of the, you know, decades to centuries of strain that have accumulated along that fault, and it has to be released in large earthquakes like you said in the opener.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> It’s been accumulating energy. So we often talk about — you hear the analogy that the plates move about as fast as your nails grow. So very slowly, you know, the plates are just moving past each other. But when you get close to these faults, they are locked for the most part. And so you can think of it like a coiled spring or like a stick that you’re trying to break. You keep putting energy into that, eventually that stick will snap. And so the analogy for an earthquake is the fault snaps and releases all of the, you know, decades to centuries of strain that have accumulated along that fault, and it has to be released in large earthquakes like you said in the opener.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> And really, the small ones don’t do it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Correct. They don’t really do anything for us to dig, except for, you know, very important, which is to remind us to be prepared and that we do live in an active tectonic environment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Correct. They don’t really do anything for us to dig, except for, you know, very important, which is to remind us to be prepared and that we do live in an active tectonic environment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So essentially you’re saying it’s not a question of if the fault will release this pressure.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So essentially you’re saying it’s not a question of if the fault will release this pressure.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> It’s when. Yeah, I think we can expect in Southern California and Northern California that we’ve had earthquakes in the past. We’ll certainly experience them in the future. I know many people want to know when it’s going to occur. And I like to emphasize that, although that’s useful, there’s many things, and I think we’ll get into this a little bit more in the second half. But from a preparedness standpoint and engineering, we need to know now kind of about the average time between earthquakes, not necessarily if they’re gonna happen on a Tuesday, so that we can design buildings and bridges and hospitals to be prepared for those whenever they do occur.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> It’s when. Yeah, I think we can expect in Southern California and Northern California that we’ve had earthquakes in the past. We’ll certainly experience them in the future. I know many people want to know when it’s going to occur. And I like to emphasize that, although that’s useful, there’s many things, and I think we’ll get into this a little bit more in the second half. But from a preparedness standpoint and engineering, we need to know now kind of about the average time between earthquakes, not necessarily if they’re gonna happen on a Tuesday, so that we can design buildings and bridges and hospitals to be prepared for those whenever they do occur.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Well, I want to invite listeners into the conversation. What questions do you have about the San Andreas Fault, the stress it’s under, and the risks that it poses? And listeners, what earthquakes have you experienced and how are you preparing, or what questions do you have about how to prepare? You can tell us by emailing forum at kqed.org, finding us on Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook or Instagram. We’re at KQED Forum. And you can call us at 866-733-6786. 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Well, I want to invite listeners into the conversation. What questions do you have about the San Andreas Fault, the stress it’s under, and the risks that it poses? And listeners, what earthquakes have you experienced and how are you preparing, or what questions do you have about how to prepare? You can tell us by emailing forum at kqed.org, finding us on Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook or Instagram. We’re at KQED Forum. And you can call us at 866-733-6786. 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So where are the biggest areas of pressure? What region of the fault did you home in on, Kate?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> The study, and it’s received a lot of attention, I think the title and the idea that the stress is at this highest level that we’ve seen in a thousand years is very striking to people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> The study, and it’s received a lot of attention, I think the title and the idea that the stress is at this highest level that we’ve seen in a thousand years is very striking to people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> So for folks that have kind of been hearing this over the last couple of months, I would emphasize that the paper has to calculate that. We don’t have any technique or ability to actually measure directly how much stress is accumulating along a fault network. So we know about how fast the energy is accumulating, and we can sort of estimate how it’s been released in past earthquakes. And that’s how we come up with an estimate of how much is still around today.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> So for folks that have kind of been hearing this over the last couple of months, I would emphasize that the paper has to calculate that. We don’t have any technique or ability to actually measure directly how much stress is accumulating along a fault network. So we know about how fast the energy is accumulating, and we can sort of estimate how it’s been released in past earthquakes. And that’s how we come up with an estimate of how much is still around today.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, another idea that I like to put in folks’ heads is that earthquakes happen really quite deep, and this is why we can’t measure the stress along the fault directly. So when you’re flying in an airplane and the pilot says, all right, we’ve reached 30,000 feet, you can, you know, undo your seatbelt, that’s about the same height above the ground as earthquakes, actually. Big earthquakes are generated below the ground. So we’re talking about events and big amounts of energy and complex systems that are quite deep. And we don’t have any techniques that would facilitate us really penetrating that deep with, say, drilling. There’s some that reached halfway there, but not all the way. So that’s a little background on the paper.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, another idea that I like to put in folks’ heads is that earthquakes happen really quite deep, and this is why we can’t measure the stress along the fault directly. So when you’re flying in an airplane and the pilot says, all right, we’ve reached 30,000 feet, you can, you know, undo your seatbelt, that’s about the same height above the ground as earthquakes, actually. Big earthquakes are generated below the ground. So we’re talking about events and big amounts of energy and complex systems that are quite deep. And we don’t have any techniques that would facilitate us really penetrating that deep with, say, drilling. There’s some that reached halfway there, but not all the way. So that’s a little background on the paper.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, but tell me, you focused on something called the Cajon Pass.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, but tell me, you focused on something called the Cajon Pass.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> Sure. That’s an interesting area in Southern California and has received a lot of attention because it’s an infrastructure corridor. It’s also where the San Andreas and the San Jacinto Fault cut through all of that infrastructure. So the San Jacinto Fault is sort of the sister fault to the San Andreas. Down here in the Bay Area, you have the Hayward Fault. It takes up also a reasonable portion of the tectonic stress.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so there’s been quite an emphasis on Cajon Pass because it’s where I-10 is, I-15, all of the gas and electric lines come through there, or many of them. So it’s really a lifeline corridor. And so understanding the history of earthquakes through there is important.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And in the study, we looked at how stress has been accumulated and released over the last thousand years by looking at the geologic record. And we find that it is a little bit higher than it has been over the past, according to the dates that we have for those prehistoric earthquakes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And in the study, we looked at how stress has been accumulated and released over the last thousand years by looking at the geologic record. And we find that it is a little bit higher than it has been over the past, according to the dates that we have for those prehistoric earthquakes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And so basically it’s in a position now where, I guess, that the current stress level is similar to what preceded previous —\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> Major ruptures? That’s right. It’s been about the same amount of time, but sort of the average time between earthquakes in that area were a little bit longer than the average. And that’s consistent with, you know, long-term estimates for hazard in Southern California that put the odds of large earthquakes quite high for us because of the time period between the elapsed time since previous large earthquakes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Kate, can you help us wrap our mind around if that area does rupture with a 7.8 or so magnitude earthquake? Since we really have not known one, as I understand now from preparing for the show, in the modern era — one of that magnitude not since 1906. So, you know, if it was to strike the Southern San Andreas around the area that you looked at, what would happen?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> Sure. The way I like to present that is that people that have been around California for a while have experienced sort of mid-magnitude 6 earthquakes, so Loma Prieta and Northridge. If they lived in the Mojave Desert, they’ve experienced some sevens. Those tend to — and Northridge and Loma Prieta are good examples of earthquakes that are very impactful to sort of part of your region.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So here in Southern California, you know, the San Fernando Valley was certainly impacted quite strongly by the Northridge earthquake. The difference between that and a large earthquake that, when you’re getting up to magnitudes of 7.5 and larger, is that you’re starting to expand the damage over a much broader area. So the shaking happens to more buildings, the fault ruptures more lifelines and roads as the earthquake traverses the system. And so the impacts just sort of expand outward. They may be slightly stronger felt in some places, but overall you just start to increase the number of people and towns that are impacted directly by the earthquake.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So here in Southern California, you know, the San Fernando Valley was certainly impacted quite strongly by the Northridge earthquake. The difference between that and a large earthquake that, when you’re getting up to magnitudes of 7.5 and larger, is that you’re starting to expand the damage over a much broader area. So the shaking happens to more buildings, the fault ruptures more lifelines and roads as the earthquake traverses the system. And so the impacts just sort of expand outward. They may be slightly stronger felt in some places, but overall you just start to increase the number of people and towns that are impacted directly by the earthquake.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I read that the violent shaking could be felt not just in Riverside and San Bernardino, but in Orange, you know, Los Angeles, and maybe even Ventura.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I read that the violent shaking could be felt not just in Riverside and San Bernardino, but in Orange, you know, Los Angeles, and maybe even Ventura.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> Yes, that’s right. In some of the ground motion models, we expect that you would have significant shaking pretty far out as the waves traverse through the basins of Southern California.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Trish in Redwood City asks, given all of our technology, is there any way that the pressure on the faults can be alleviated in the same way that avalanches are averted? Like, is there anything we can do besides a giant earthquake?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> It’s a great question, but there is not. It’s so much energy that we don’t really know where we would exactly start the event. And we also don’t know exactly what would happen. So I think it’s the kind of thing that’s only in sci-fi movies, basically.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Kate Sharer, geologist with the U.S. Geological Survey, about the historic level of pressure building up along the San Andreas Fault and what that means. And you, our listeners, are joining the conversation, and we’ll have more with you and with Kate and more guests after the break. Stay with us. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Tuesday, August 18, 2026 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The San Andreas Fault is under more pressure now than it has been in the last 1,000 years. That’s according to new research from seismologists who study earthquakes along the Pacific Rim. With recent earthquakes in Japan, Colombia and Venezuela making headlines, we look at the latest science, how prepared California is for “the Big One” and why we still can’t predict earthquakes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Katherine Sharer, \u003c/strong>geologist, U.S. Geological Survey\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Wendy Bohon, \u003c/strong>seismic hazards and earthquake engineering branch chief, California Geological Survey\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Brian Strong, \u003c/strong>chief resilience officer, San Francisco Office of Resilience and Capital Planning\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Earthquake preparedness may have taken a backseat to wildfires and other major issues California faces, but seismologists say it wouldn’t be a bad idea to make it top of mind again. That’s because sections of the San Andreas Fault are at their highest level of strain in the last thousand years. And there’s only one way to meaningfully release that pressure: a big earthquake.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So where might the big one hit, and what kind of damage could it create? Joining me first is Kate Sharer, geologist with the U.S. Geological Survey and co-author of the recent article in the Journal of Geophysical Research about stress accumulation along the San Andreas Fault. Kate, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> Hi, thanks so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So many Californians have been hearing about the San Andreas Fault all our lives, but can you remind us how far it stretches, what makes it unique?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. It’s quite long. It extends all the way from Northern California down through the Bay Area, all through the more quiet sections that we don’t tend to frequent in Central California, and then goes along the backside of the mountains here in Southern California and finally cuts through into the Salton Sea. So it’s quite long.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And it acts as the primary boundary, right, between the Pacific and North American plates?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. Most of the slip rate between those two plates slowly and inexorably sort of accumulates along the San Andreas. You know, in the Bay Area, you guys all know your 1906 earthquake, and we have one down here in Southern California. Our equivalent would be the one that occurred in 1857 as the largest earthquake that we had in historic times on the San Andreas.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So then what kind of magnitude quake is the San Andreas capable of?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> It would be quite reasonable to see something between 6 and then certainly approaching 8. We know from looking at the length of the earthquake in 1906 and also in 1857 that those earthquakes were around 7.9 or 8. We didn’t have seismometers then, so we have to do it by looking at about how long the rupture was and calculating estimated magnitude. So it’s done a little differently, but those two give us evidence that we can expect very large earthquakes on the system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And even though the San Andreas is infamous, you’re saying that really the last significant rupture along that main fault is 1906 in San Francisco and 1857 in Los Angeles. So the ones we’ve had in between, right? Like the Napa quake and the Northridge quake and even Loma Prieta was not along that main fault.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> That’s right. Loma Prieta is a little bit of a question mark, but really most of the stress that was released in those earthquakes — Napa, where we had Ridgecrest and other ones, Northridge down here in Southern California — those are on the distributed network of faults that surround the San Andreas. So although the San Andreas takes up the lion’s share of the tectonic motion between the plates, we have all these other faults that also can contribute to the hazard underneath our feet.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. So in the absence of major quake activity along the main fault, what has it been doing all this time?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> It’s been accumulating energy. So we often talk about — you hear the analogy that the plates move about as fast as your nails grow. So very slowly, you know, the plates are just moving past each other. But when you get close to these faults, they are locked for the most part. And so you can think of it like a coiled spring or like a stick that you’re trying to break. You keep putting energy into that, eventually that stick will snap. And so the analogy for an earthquake is the fault snaps and releases all of the, you know, decades to centuries of strain that have accumulated along that fault, and it has to be released in large earthquakes like you said in the opener.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> And really, the small ones don’t do it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Correct. They don’t really do anything for us to dig, except for, you know, very important, which is to remind us to be prepared and that we do live in an active tectonic environment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So essentially you’re saying it’s not a question of if the fault will release this pressure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> It’s when. Yeah, I think we can expect in Southern California and Northern California that we’ve had earthquakes in the past. We’ll certainly experience them in the future. I know many people want to know when it’s going to occur. And I like to emphasize that, although that’s useful, there’s many things, and I think we’ll get into this a little bit more in the second half. But from a preparedness standpoint and engineering, we need to know now kind of about the average time between earthquakes, not necessarily if they’re gonna happen on a Tuesday, so that we can design buildings and bridges and hospitals to be prepared for those whenever they do occur.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Well, I want to invite listeners into the conversation. What questions do you have about the San Andreas Fault, the stress it’s under, and the risks that it poses? And listeners, what earthquakes have you experienced and how are you preparing, or what questions do you have about how to prepare? You can tell us by emailing forum at kqed.org, finding us on Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook or Instagram. We’re at KQED Forum. And you can call us at 866-733-6786. 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So where are the biggest areas of pressure? What region of the fault did you home in on, Kate?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> The study, and it’s received a lot of attention, I think the title and the idea that the stress is at this highest level that we’ve seen in a thousand years is very striking to people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> So for folks that have kind of been hearing this over the last couple of months, I would emphasize that the paper has to calculate that. We don’t have any technique or ability to actually measure directly how much stress is accumulating along a fault network. So we know about how fast the energy is accumulating, and we can sort of estimate how it’s been released in past earthquakes. And that’s how we come up with an estimate of how much is still around today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, another idea that I like to put in folks’ heads is that earthquakes happen really quite deep, and this is why we can’t measure the stress along the fault directly. So when you’re flying in an airplane and the pilot says, all right, we’ve reached 30,000 feet, you can, you know, undo your seatbelt, that’s about the same height above the ground as earthquakes, actually. Big earthquakes are generated below the ground. So we’re talking about events and big amounts of energy and complex systems that are quite deep. And we don’t have any techniques that would facilitate us really penetrating that deep with, say, drilling. There’s some that reached halfway there, but not all the way. So that’s a little background on the paper.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, but tell me, you focused on something called the Cajon Pass.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> Sure. That’s an interesting area in Southern California and has received a lot of attention because it’s an infrastructure corridor. It’s also where the San Andreas and the San Jacinto Fault cut through all of that infrastructure. So the San Jacinto Fault is sort of the sister fault to the San Andreas. Down here in the Bay Area, you have the Hayward Fault. It takes up also a reasonable portion of the tectonic stress.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so there’s been quite an emphasis on Cajon Pass because it’s where I-10 is, I-15, all of the gas and electric lines come through there, or many of them. So it’s really a lifeline corridor. And so understanding the history of earthquakes through there is important.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in the study, we looked at how stress has been accumulated and released over the last thousand years by looking at the geologic record. And we find that it is a little bit higher than it has been over the past, according to the dates that we have for those prehistoric earthquakes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And so basically it’s in a position now where, I guess, that the current stress level is similar to what preceded previous —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> Major ruptures? That’s right. It’s been about the same amount of time, but sort of the average time between earthquakes in that area were a little bit longer than the average. And that’s consistent with, you know, long-term estimates for hazard in Southern California that put the odds of large earthquakes quite high for us because of the time period between the elapsed time since previous large earthquakes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Kate, can you help us wrap our mind around if that area does rupture with a 7.8 or so magnitude earthquake? Since we really have not known one, as I understand now from preparing for the show, in the modern era — one of that magnitude not since 1906. So, you know, if it was to strike the Southern San Andreas around the area that you looked at, what would happen?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> Sure. The way I like to present that is that people that have been around California for a while have experienced sort of mid-magnitude 6 earthquakes, so Loma Prieta and Northridge. If they lived in the Mojave Desert, they’ve experienced some sevens. Those tend to — and Northridge and Loma Prieta are good examples of earthquakes that are very impactful to sort of part of your region.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So here in Southern California, you know, the San Fernando Valley was certainly impacted quite strongly by the Northridge earthquake. The difference between that and a large earthquake that, when you’re getting up to magnitudes of 7.5 and larger, is that you’re starting to expand the damage over a much broader area. So the shaking happens to more buildings, the fault ruptures more lifelines and roads as the earthquake traverses the system. And so the impacts just sort of expand outward. They may be slightly stronger felt in some places, but overall you just start to increase the number of people and towns that are impacted directly by the earthquake.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I read that the violent shaking could be felt not just in Riverside and San Bernardino, but in Orange, you know, Los Angeles, and maybe even Ventura.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> Yes, that’s right. In some of the ground motion models, we expect that you would have significant shaking pretty far out as the waves traverse through the basins of Southern California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Trish in Redwood City asks, given all of our technology, is there any way that the pressure on the faults can be alleviated in the same way that avalanches are averted? Like, is there anything we can do besides a giant earthquake?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Sharer:\u003c/strong> It’s a great question, but there is not. It’s so much energy that we don’t really know where we would exactly start the event. And we also don’t know exactly what would happen. So I think it’s the kind of thing that’s only in sci-fi movies, basically.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Kate Sharer, geologist with the U.S. Geological Survey, about the historic level of pressure building up along the San Andreas Fault and what that means. And you, our listeners, are joining the conversation, and we’ll have more with you and with Kate and more guests after the break. Stay with us. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Wednesday, August 5, 2026 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>With domestic demand down and retaliatory tariffs from Canada hurting international sales, California’s wine industry is struggling. But beyond this year’s challenges, grape growers and winemakers are confronting the broader threat of climate change, which is already transforming places like Napa and Sonoma and could ultimately threaten the entire industry. We’ll talk to researchers and winemakers about the looming threats and what changes are necessary.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander\u003c/strong>, senior wine reporter, San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Steve McIntyre,\u003c/strong> founder, McIntyre Family Wines\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Ben Montpetit,\u003c/strong> Richard M. Kunde Endowed Chair in Viticulture and Enology and Professor & Marvin Sands Department Chair at UC Davis\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Lesley McClurg. I’m in today for Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The wine industry is under a lot of stress right now. And honestly, it’s kind of hard for me to make sense of all the changes that are confronting the industry. I mean, some growers are removing — in some cases, burning — vineyards because demand has dropped so, so sharply.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And at the same time, hotter temperatures are disrupting growing conditions so much that iconic grapes like Cabernet Sauvignon may eventually need to be grown in different places — not in California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m joined by \u003cstrong>Jess Lander\u003c/strong>, senior wine reporter at the \u003cem>San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em>. Welcome, Jess.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> So give us a pulse point. How critical is this moment for the wine industry? How bad is it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> It’s pretty bad. You know, I don’t want to sound alarmist, but the industry is facing, as you said, a myriad of challenges. They’re kind of getting it from all sides, and it feels like there’s not one big solution to fix the problems.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I would say the biggest issue, though, that the wine industry is confronting is declining alcohol consumption — wine consumption across the country and across the globe. That’s really making it difficult for a turnaround.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And what is driving that? I mean, I’ve heard that younger drinkers are not drinking as much wine. Are there other factors that are at play? And why are people — younger people included — drinking less?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> There are a lot of factors. That is one that people talk a lot about. However, I have recently seen a study that shows that younger drinkers, as they become of legal drinking age, are catching up a bit. So, hopefully we see more of that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They also are drinking a lot of cocktails and seltzers and alternative beverages instead of wine. That’s cutting into the wine industry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We also have this movement around health and wellness, with people cutting back on their drinking and drinking less. You have baby boomers, who really drove the boom of the wine industry in the last 20 or 30 years, starting to cut back. They’re getting older. Their doctors are telling them to stop drinking.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some people talk about a kind of neo-prohibitionist movement happening. You have GLP-1s. There’s a lot of factors to it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> What about cannabis? Is it a factor as more people maybe turn to cannabis for relaxation?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> A lot of people do bring that up as a possible factor. I did report on a Gallup poll a year or two ago about the decline of alcohol consumption, and those researchers found that cannabis is not having a meaningful impact. But it’s definitely something that people are talking about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And I’ve seen these headlines where growers are literally burning their vineyards. Is that one vineyard? Is that a large problem in the industry? Give us a sense of that. And why are they doing that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> You know, that headline I’m assuming you pulled from the \u003cem>New York Times\u003c/em> article that came out last week.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think one point that a lot of the industry would like to make is that they’re not just lighting their vineyards on fire. When growers pull out their vines, they make these big piles, and burning them is just a common farming practice. It’s something that’s been done for decades.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that’s not quite what’s happening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But California growers pulled out more than 40,000 acres of vineyards last year, and probably tens of thousands the year before. There is this big push to remove vineyards because there is an oversupply and there’s a correction that needs to be made. So that is something that is happening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And are people not only leaving grapes unpicked and doing what you’re saying, but also selling off land? Are they leaving the industry as well? Is it that bad?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> Yes. Unfortunately, there are a lot of farmers who are reporting that they’re just throwing in the towel and abandoning their land, or making it fallow and maybe considering another crop.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But it’s definitely happening, especially in certain parts of California — not necessarily Napa and Sonoma counties, but in the Central Valley. And it is sad. Farmers are struggling.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because there is this oversupply of wine and grapes, they’re really struggling even to make a profit on their grapes or to find buyers. So this year will be much of the same. We’ll see a lot of grapes, unfortunately, left unpicked.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And is there a thought that this may shift? I mean, do these drinking trends tend to go up and down? Is there hope that we’ll start lapping it up in the future?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. I think experts caution people that we’re probably not going to see the massive boom or the kind of growth we’ve experienced in the past.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there are signs that we’re hitting the bottom and that the wine industry will soon start recovering and move back into a position of growth — maybe one or two percent in the next couple of years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Is the reason it feels potentially so bad right now — and again, I’m not right at the pulse point where you are, so tell me if I’m accurate at all — that we got real thirsty during the pandemic and then potentially kind of dried up afterwards?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Is this moment feeling particularly bad because maybe we had oversupply during the pandemic?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> Absolutely.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think a lot of wineries were enjoying such great growth that now that things have slowed so much, it probably feels more dramatic than if they were comparing this to pre-pandemic times.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A lot of Americans stocked up on alcohol, and because sales were going so well, wineries increased production. Now that things have slowed, they have more wine than they can sell. The vintages are backing up, and they can’t sell it in the wholesale market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like I said, there’s this correction that needs to happen. It’s coming from the vineyard side, where people are removing vines so there won’t be as many vineyards supplying the industry. Then, once we move through the excess inventory, it’ll correct a bit more on the wine side as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> There’s some correction ahead.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I want to bring in \u003cstrong>Steve McIntyre\u003c/strong>, founder of McIntyre Family Wines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Steve, welcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve McIntyre:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Thank you!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Is declining demand hitting your business in the Carmel Valley?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve McIntyre:\u003c/strong> It certainly is. And so is it hitting our parent company, Monterey Pacific.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We farm about 18,000 acres through four different counties along the coast of California. So we understand all too well the challenges, both on the production side and the growing side.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And then, Jess, there’s global politics also at play. So how are tariffs affecting the industry?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> I would say that tariffs are definitely affecting the industry. It’s probably not the biggest problem that producers are dealing with, but tariffs have raised the cost of a lot of supplies that the wine industry uses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So corks and glass and screw caps — all those types of things have gone up because a lot of those products are bought from other countries.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then Canada has been a big stressor because not only were there tariffs, but in retaliation they have pretty much removed U.S. alcohol from their shelves for over a year now. That is a pretty big hit to a lot of California wineries that export there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s the U.S.’s biggest export market for alcohol, worth about $1 billion. So any wineries that were exporting to Canada are definitely feeling that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And that may not reverse, right? Because I’ve read that Canadian sales of homegrown wines have soared, which means buyers may turn to their local supplies instead. That may be a permanent change that we could see.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I hope not. I think even a lot of Canadians would like to have their American alcohol back on the shelves. There are a lot more options.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Obviously, they’re probably buying more European wines now. So we’ll see. I have faith that it’s not permanent, but I will admit I’m pretty surprised at how long it’s gone on. I thought it might only last a few months, and they’re still holding strong.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Steve, what about you? Have tariffs hit your business?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve McIntyre:\u003c/strong> Yeah, they certainly have. We were getting all of our glass from China, and that tariff, of course, was one of the worst.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And to build on what Jess said about Canada, one of our biggest markets in California is Palm Desert. We see the Canadian snowbirds there, and they’re still drinking a lot of California wine, and they really miss it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But it’s a shame we have these political barriers to contend with.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And are those costs already trickling down to the consumer? Have you had to raise your prices because of the tariffs?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve McIntyre:\u003c/strong> We’ve not been able to raise prices because of the supply being so large. There’s not enough demand to really increase prices.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Those that have certainly have suffered the consequences with declining depletion. So no, we can’t pass it down. It’s nothing more than a tax, that’s for sure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And so you’re getting squeezed. Basically, the business itself is getting squeezed. You’re having to absorb those financial hits.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve McIntyre:\u003c/strong> That’s exactly right. The entire business is. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Well, I want to bring in \u003cstrong>Ben Montpetit\u003c/strong>, Richard M. Kunde Endowed Chair in Viticulture and Enology and Professor & Marvin Sands Department Chair at UC Davis.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just to kind of cap what we’ve heard there from Jess and Steve, how are you viewing this moment, Ben? Do you feel like this is just a hard moment, or is this a longer trend that we’ll see?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Montpetit:\u003c/strong> Yeah, thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In talking to stakeholders across California and what we’re seeing, it really is a bit of a change. It’s not going to be just a dip and then come back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The change is really going to be on the industry side. They’re thinking about how to engage with the next generation of consumers, what they’re looking for in these products. They’re thinking about innovation and opportunities for change.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that’s where I remain optimistic about the future. Talking to those stakeholders, they’re not sitting idle. They’re looking to innovate and bring new products to market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Even the discussion we’ve been having about fields and vines being ripped out — I know many producers who are thinking about the opportunities there to plant new varieties and do something a little bit different.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Well, we’ll talk about some of those innovations after the break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’d love to hear from listeners. Are you drinking less wine? Why are you drinking less wine? Maybe you’re Gen Z. Do you drink wine? Why or why not? Do you like to buy from specific California regions? Tell us about those.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can email your comments or questions to \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. You can find us on any of the social platforms — Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram — we’re @KQEDForum.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Or you can give us a call right now at 866-733-6786. Again, that’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Maybe you’re in the business. Maybe you’re feeling some of these stress points. We’d love to hear about it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Stay with us. We’ll be right back after this break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Lesley McClurg.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>With domestic demand down and retaliatory tariffs from Canada hurting international sales, California’s wine industry is struggling. But beyond this year’s challenges, grape growers and winemakers are confronting the broader threat of climate change, which is already transforming places like Napa and Sonoma and could ultimately threaten the entire industry. We’ll talk to researchers and winemakers about the looming threats and what changes are necessary.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The wine industry is under a lot of stress right now. And honestly, it’s kind of hard for me to make sense of all the changes that are confronting the industry. I mean, some growers are removing — in some cases, burning — vineyards because demand has dropped so, so sharply.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> So give us a pulse point. How critical is this moment for the wine industry? How bad is it?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I would say the biggest issue, though, that the wine industry is confronting is declining alcohol consumption — wine consumption across the country and across the globe. That’s really making it difficult for a turnaround.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I would say the biggest issue, though, that the wine industry is confronting is declining alcohol consumption — wine consumption across the country and across the globe. That’s really making it difficult for a turnaround.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And what is driving that? I mean, I’ve heard that younger drinkers are not drinking as much wine. Are there other factors that are at play? And why are people — younger people included — drinking less?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And what is driving that? I mean, I’ve heard that younger drinkers are not drinking as much wine. Are there other factors that are at play? And why are people — younger people included — drinking less?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> There are a lot of factors. That is one that people talk a lot about. However, I have recently seen a study that shows that younger drinkers, as they become of legal drinking age, are catching up a bit. So, hopefully we see more of that.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> There are a lot of factors. That is one that people talk a lot about. However, I have recently seen a study that shows that younger drinkers, as they become of legal drinking age, are catching up a bit. So, hopefully we see more of that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They also are drinking a lot of cocktails and seltzers and alternative beverages instead of wine. That’s cutting into the wine industry.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>They also are drinking a lot of cocktails and seltzers and alternative beverages instead of wine. That’s cutting into the wine industry.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We also have this movement around health and wellness, with people cutting back on their drinking and drinking less. You have baby boomers, who really drove the boom of the wine industry in the last 20 or 30 years, starting to cut back. They’re getting older. Their doctors are telling them to stop drinking.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>We also have this movement around health and wellness, with people cutting back on their drinking and drinking less. You have baby boomers, who really drove the boom of the wine industry in the last 20 or 30 years, starting to cut back. They’re getting older. Their doctors are telling them to stop drinking.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some people talk about a kind of neo-prohibitionist movement happening. You have GLP-1s. There’s a lot of factors to it.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Some people talk about a kind of neo-prohibitionist movement happening. You have GLP-1s. There’s a lot of factors to it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> What about cannabis? Is it a factor as more people maybe turn to cannabis for relaxation?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> What about cannabis? Is it a factor as more people maybe turn to cannabis for relaxation?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> A lot of people do bring that up as a possible factor. I did report on a Gallup poll a year or two ago about the decline of alcohol consumption, and those researchers found that cannabis is not having a meaningful impact. But it’s definitely something that people are talking about.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> A lot of people do bring that up as a possible factor. I did report on a Gallup poll a year or two ago about the decline of alcohol consumption, and those researchers found that cannabis is not having a meaningful impact. But it’s definitely something that people are talking about.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And I’ve seen these headlines where growers are literally burning their vineyards. Is that one vineyard? Is that a large problem in the industry? Give us a sense of that. And why are they doing that?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And I’ve seen these headlines where growers are literally burning their vineyards. Is that one vineyard? Is that a large problem in the industry? Give us a sense of that. And why are they doing that?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> You know, that headline I’m assuming you pulled from the \u003cem>New York Times\u003c/em> article that came out last week.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> You know, that headline I’m assuming you pulled from the \u003cem>New York Times\u003c/em> article that came out last week.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think one point that a lot of the industry would like to make is that they’re not just lighting their vineyards on fire. When growers pull out their vines, they make these big piles, and burning them is just a common farming practice. It’s something that’s been done for decades.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think one point that a lot of the industry would like to make is that they’re not just lighting their vineyards on fire. When growers pull out their vines, they make these big piles, and burning them is just a common farming practice. It’s something that’s been done for decades.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So that’s not quite what’s happening.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>So that’s not quite what’s happening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But California growers pulled out more than 40,000 acres of vineyards last year, and probably tens of thousands the year before. There is this big push to remove vineyards because there is an oversupply and there’s a correction that needs to be made. So that is something that is happening.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>But California growers pulled out more than 40,000 acres of vineyards last year, and probably tens of thousands the year before. There is this big push to remove vineyards because there is an oversupply and there’s a correction that needs to be made. So that is something that is happening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And are people not only leaving grapes unpicked and doing what you’re saying, but also selling off land? Are they leaving the industry as well? Is it that bad?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And are people not only leaving grapes unpicked and doing what you’re saying, but also selling off land? Are they leaving the industry as well? Is it that bad?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> Yes. Unfortunately, there are a lot of farmers who are reporting that they’re just throwing in the towel and abandoning their land, or making it fallow and maybe considering another crop.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> Yes. Unfortunately, there are a lot of farmers who are reporting that they’re just throwing in the towel and abandoning their land, or making it fallow and maybe considering another crop.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But it’s definitely happening, especially in certain parts of California — not necessarily Napa and Sonoma counties, but in the Central Valley. And it is sad. Farmers are struggling.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>But it’s definitely happening, especially in certain parts of California — not necessarily Napa and Sonoma counties, but in the Central Valley. And it is sad. Farmers are struggling.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Because there is this oversupply of wine and grapes, they’re really struggling even to make a profit on their grapes or to find buyers. So this year will be much of the same. We’ll see a lot of grapes, unfortunately, left unpicked.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Because there is this oversupply of wine and grapes, they’re really struggling even to make a profit on their grapes or to find buyers. So this year will be much of the same. We’ll see a lot of grapes, unfortunately, left unpicked.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And is there a thought that this may shift? I mean, do these drinking trends tend to go up and down? Is there hope that we’ll start lapping it up in the future?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And is there a thought that this may shift? I mean, do these drinking trends tend to go up and down? Is there hope that we’ll start lapping it up in the future?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. I think experts caution people that we’re probably not going to see the massive boom or the kind of growth we’ve experienced in the past.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. I think experts caution people that we’re probably not going to see the massive boom or the kind of growth we’ve experienced in the past.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But there are signs that we’re hitting the bottom and that the wine industry will soon start recovering and move back into a position of growth — maybe one or two percent in the next couple of years.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>But there are signs that we’re hitting the bottom and that the wine industry will soon start recovering and move back into a position of growth — maybe one or two percent in the next couple of years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Is the reason it feels potentially so bad right now — and again, I’m not right at the pulse point where you are, so tell me if I’m accurate at all — that we got real thirsty during the pandemic and then potentially kind of dried up afterwards?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Is the reason it feels potentially so bad right now — and again, I’m not right at the pulse point where you are, so tell me if I’m accurate at all — that we got real thirsty during the pandemic and then potentially kind of dried up afterwards?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Is this moment feeling particularly bad because maybe we had oversupply during the pandemic?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Is this moment feeling particularly bad because maybe we had oversupply during the pandemic?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> Absolutely.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> Absolutely.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think a lot of wineries were enjoying such great growth that now that things have slowed so much, it probably feels more dramatic than if they were comparing this to pre-pandemic times.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>I think a lot of wineries were enjoying such great growth that now that things have slowed so much, it probably feels more dramatic than if they were comparing this to pre-pandemic times.\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A lot of Americans stocked up on alcohol, and because sales were going so well, wineries increased production. Now that things have slowed, they have more wine than they can sell. The vintages are backing up, and they can’t sell it in the wholesale market.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>A lot of Americans stocked up on alcohol, and because sales were going so well, wineries increased production. Now that things have slowed, they have more wine than they can sell. The vintages are backing up, and they can’t sell it in the wholesale market.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Like I said, there’s this correction that needs to happen. It’s coming from the vineyard side, where people are removing vines so there won’t be as many vineyards supplying the industry. Then, once we move through the excess inventory, it’ll correct a bit more on the wine side as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Like I said, there’s this correction that needs to happen. It’s coming from the vineyard side, where people are removing vines so there won’t be as many vineyards supplying the industry. Then, once we move through the excess inventory, it’ll correct a bit more on the wine side as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> There’s some correction ahead.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> There’s some correction ahead.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I want to bring in \u003cstrong>Steve McIntyre\u003c/strong>, founder of McIntyre Family Wines.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>I want to bring in \u003cstrong>Steve McIntyre\u003c/strong>, founder of McIntyre Family Wines.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Steve, welcome.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Steve, welcome.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve McIntyre:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Thank you!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve McIntyre:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Thank you!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Is declining demand hitting your business in the Carmel Valley?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Is declining demand hitting your business in the Carmel Valley?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve McIntyre:\u003c/strong> It certainly is. And so is it hitting our parent company, Monterey Pacific.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve McIntyre:\u003c/strong> It certainly is. And so is it hitting our parent company, Monterey Pacific.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We farm about 18,000 acres through four different counties along the coast of California. So we understand all too well the challenges, both on the production side and the growing side.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>We farm about 18,000 acres through four different counties along the coast of California. So we understand all too well the challenges, both on the production side and the growing side.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And then, Jess, there’s global politics also at play. So how are tariffs affecting the industry?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And then, Jess, there’s global politics also at play. So how are tariffs affecting the industry?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> I would say that tariffs are definitely affecting the industry. It’s probably not the biggest problem that producers are dealing with, but tariffs have raised the cost of a lot of supplies that the wine industry uses.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> I would say that tariffs are definitely affecting the industry. It’s probably not the biggest problem that producers are dealing with, but tariffs have raised the cost of a lot of supplies that the wine industry uses.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So corks and glass and screw caps — all those types of things have gone up because a lot of those products are bought from other countries.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So corks and glass and screw caps — all those types of things have gone up because a lot of those products are bought from other countries.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then Canada has been a big stressor because not only were there tariffs, but in retaliation they have pretty much removed U.S. alcohol from their shelves for over a year now. That is a pretty big hit to a lot of California wineries that export there.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And then Canada has been a big stressor because not only were there tariffs, but in retaliation they have pretty much removed U.S. alcohol from their shelves for over a year now. That is a pretty big hit to a lot of California wineries that export there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s the U.S.’s biggest export market for alcohol, worth about $1 billion. So any wineries that were exporting to Canada are definitely feeling that.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>It’s the U.S.’s biggest export market for alcohol, worth about $1 billion. So any wineries that were exporting to Canada are definitely feeling that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And that may not reverse, right? Because I’ve read that Canadian sales of homegrown wines have soared, which means buyers may turn to their local supplies instead. That may be a permanent change that we could see.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And that may not reverse, right? Because I’ve read that Canadian sales of homegrown wines have soared, which means buyers may turn to their local supplies instead. That may be a permanent change that we could see.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I hope not. I think even a lot of Canadians would like to have their American alcohol back on the shelves. There are a lot more options.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I hope not. I think even a lot of Canadians would like to have their American alcohol back on the shelves. There are a lot more options.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Obviously, they’re probably buying more European wines now. So we’ll see. I have faith that it’s not permanent, but I will admit I’m pretty surprised at how long it’s gone on. I thought it might only last a few months, and they’re still holding strong.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Obviously, they’re probably buying more European wines now. So we’ll see. I have faith that it’s not permanent, but I will admit I’m pretty surprised at how long it’s gone on. I thought it might only last a few months, and they’re still holding strong.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Steve, what about you? Have tariffs hit your business?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Steve, what about you? Have tariffs hit your business?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve McIntyre:\u003c/strong> Yeah, they certainly have. We were getting all of our glass from China, and that tariff, of course, was one of the worst.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve McIntyre:\u003c/strong> Yeah, they certainly have. We were getting all of our glass from China, and that tariff, of course, was one of the worst.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And to build on what Jess said about Canada, one of our biggest markets in California is Palm Desert. We see the Canadian snowbirds there, and they’re still drinking a lot of California wine, and they really miss it.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And to build on what Jess said about Canada, one of our biggest markets in California is Palm Desert. We see the Canadian snowbirds there, and they’re still drinking a lot of California wine, and they really miss it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But it’s a shame we have these political barriers to contend with.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But it’s a shame we have these political barriers to contend with.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And are those costs already trickling down to the consumer? Have you had to raise your prices because of the tariffs?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And are those costs already trickling down to the consumer? Have you had to raise your prices because of the tariffs?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve McIntyre:\u003c/strong> We’ve not been able to raise prices because of the supply being so large. There’s not enough demand to really increase prices.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve McIntyre:\u003c/strong> We’ve not been able to raise prices because of the supply being so large. There’s not enough demand to really increase prices.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Those that have certainly have suffered the consequences with declining depletion. So no, we can’t pass it down. It’s nothing more than a tax, that’s for sure.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Those that have certainly have suffered the consequences with declining depletion. So no, we can’t pass it down. It’s nothing more than a tax, that’s for sure.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And so you’re getting squeezed. Basically, the business itself is getting squeezed. You’re having to absorb those financial hits.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And so you’re getting squeezed. Basically, the business itself is getting squeezed. You’re having to absorb those financial hits.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve McIntyre:\u003c/strong> That’s exactly right. The entire business is. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Well, I want to bring in \u003cstrong>Ben Montpetit\u003c/strong>, Richard M. Kunde Endowed Chair in Viticulture and Enology and Professor & Marvin Sands Department Chair at UC Davis.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Just to kind of cap what we’ve heard there from Jess and Steve, how are you viewing this moment, Ben? Do you feel like this is just a hard moment, or is this a longer trend that we’ll see?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Montpetit:\u003c/strong> Yeah, thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In talking to stakeholders across California and what we’re seeing, it really is a bit of a change. It’s not going to be just a dip and then come back.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The change is really going to be on the industry side. They’re thinking about how to engage with the next generation of consumers, what they’re looking for in these products. They’re thinking about innovation and opportunities for change.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So that’s where I remain optimistic about the future. Talking to those stakeholders, they’re not sitting idle. They’re looking to innovate and bring new products to market.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Well, we’ll talk about some of those innovations after the break.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’d love to hear from listeners. Are you drinking less wine? Why are you drinking less wine? Maybe you’re Gen Z. Do you drink wine? Why or why not? Do you like to buy from specific California regions? Tell us about those.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You can email your comments or questions to \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. You can find us on any of the social platforms — Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram — we’re @KQEDForum.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Stay with us. We’ll be right back after this break.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Wednesday, August 5, 2026 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>With domestic demand down and retaliatory tariffs from Canada hurting international sales, California’s wine industry is struggling. But beyond this year’s challenges, grape growers and winemakers are confronting the broader threat of climate change, which is already transforming places like Napa and Sonoma and could ultimately threaten the entire industry. We’ll talk to researchers and winemakers about the looming threats and what changes are necessary.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander\u003c/strong>, senior wine reporter, San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Steve McIntyre,\u003c/strong> founder, McIntyre Family Wines\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Ben Montpetit,\u003c/strong> Richard M. Kunde Endowed Chair in Viticulture and Enology and Professor & Marvin Sands Department Chair at UC Davis\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Lesley McClurg. I’m in today for Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The wine industry is under a lot of stress right now. And honestly, it’s kind of hard for me to make sense of all the changes that are confronting the industry. I mean, some growers are removing — in some cases, burning — vineyards because demand has dropped so, so sharply.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And at the same time, hotter temperatures are disrupting growing conditions so much that iconic grapes like Cabernet Sauvignon may eventually need to be grown in different places — not in California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m joined by \u003cstrong>Jess Lander\u003c/strong>, senior wine reporter at the \u003cem>San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em>. Welcome, Jess.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> So give us a pulse point. How critical is this moment for the wine industry? How bad is it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> It’s pretty bad. You know, I don’t want to sound alarmist, but the industry is facing, as you said, a myriad of challenges. They’re kind of getting it from all sides, and it feels like there’s not one big solution to fix the problems.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I would say the biggest issue, though, that the wine industry is confronting is declining alcohol consumption — wine consumption across the country and across the globe. That’s really making it difficult for a turnaround.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And what is driving that? I mean, I’ve heard that younger drinkers are not drinking as much wine. Are there other factors that are at play? And why are people — younger people included — drinking less?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> There are a lot of factors. That is one that people talk a lot about. However, I have recently seen a study that shows that younger drinkers, as they become of legal drinking age, are catching up a bit. So, hopefully we see more of that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They also are drinking a lot of cocktails and seltzers and alternative beverages instead of wine. That’s cutting into the wine industry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We also have this movement around health and wellness, with people cutting back on their drinking and drinking less. You have baby boomers, who really drove the boom of the wine industry in the last 20 or 30 years, starting to cut back. They’re getting older. Their doctors are telling them to stop drinking.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some people talk about a kind of neo-prohibitionist movement happening. You have GLP-1s. There’s a lot of factors to it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> What about cannabis? Is it a factor as more people maybe turn to cannabis for relaxation?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> A lot of people do bring that up as a possible factor. I did report on a Gallup poll a year or two ago about the decline of alcohol consumption, and those researchers found that cannabis is not having a meaningful impact. But it’s definitely something that people are talking about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And I’ve seen these headlines where growers are literally burning their vineyards. Is that one vineyard? Is that a large problem in the industry? Give us a sense of that. And why are they doing that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> You know, that headline I’m assuming you pulled from the \u003cem>New York Times\u003c/em> article that came out last week.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think one point that a lot of the industry would like to make is that they’re not just lighting their vineyards on fire. When growers pull out their vines, they make these big piles, and burning them is just a common farming practice. It’s something that’s been done for decades.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that’s not quite what’s happening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But California growers pulled out more than 40,000 acres of vineyards last year, and probably tens of thousands the year before. There is this big push to remove vineyards because there is an oversupply and there’s a correction that needs to be made. So that is something that is happening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And are people not only leaving grapes unpicked and doing what you’re saying, but also selling off land? Are they leaving the industry as well? Is it that bad?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> Yes. Unfortunately, there are a lot of farmers who are reporting that they’re just throwing in the towel and abandoning their land, or making it fallow and maybe considering another crop.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But it’s definitely happening, especially in certain parts of California — not necessarily Napa and Sonoma counties, but in the Central Valley. And it is sad. Farmers are struggling.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because there is this oversupply of wine and grapes, they’re really struggling even to make a profit on their grapes or to find buyers. So this year will be much of the same. We’ll see a lot of grapes, unfortunately, left unpicked.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And is there a thought that this may shift? I mean, do these drinking trends tend to go up and down? Is there hope that we’ll start lapping it up in the future?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. I think experts caution people that we’re probably not going to see the massive boom or the kind of growth we’ve experienced in the past.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there are signs that we’re hitting the bottom and that the wine industry will soon start recovering and move back into a position of growth — maybe one or two percent in the next couple of years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Is the reason it feels potentially so bad right now — and again, I’m not right at the pulse point where you are, so tell me if I’m accurate at all — that we got real thirsty during the pandemic and then potentially kind of dried up afterwards?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Is this moment feeling particularly bad because maybe we had oversupply during the pandemic?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> Absolutely.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think a lot of wineries were enjoying such great growth that now that things have slowed so much, it probably feels more dramatic than if they were comparing this to pre-pandemic times.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A lot of Americans stocked up on alcohol, and because sales were going so well, wineries increased production. Now that things have slowed, they have more wine than they can sell. The vintages are backing up, and they can’t sell it in the wholesale market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like I said, there’s this correction that needs to happen. It’s coming from the vineyard side, where people are removing vines so there won’t be as many vineyards supplying the industry. Then, once we move through the excess inventory, it’ll correct a bit more on the wine side as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> There’s some correction ahead.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I want to bring in \u003cstrong>Steve McIntyre\u003c/strong>, founder of McIntyre Family Wines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Steve, welcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve McIntyre:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Thank you!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Is declining demand hitting your business in the Carmel Valley?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve McIntyre:\u003c/strong> It certainly is. And so is it hitting our parent company, Monterey Pacific.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We farm about 18,000 acres through four different counties along the coast of California. So we understand all too well the challenges, both on the production side and the growing side.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And then, Jess, there’s global politics also at play. So how are tariffs affecting the industry?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> I would say that tariffs are definitely affecting the industry. It’s probably not the biggest problem that producers are dealing with, but tariffs have raised the cost of a lot of supplies that the wine industry uses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So corks and glass and screw caps — all those types of things have gone up because a lot of those products are bought from other countries.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then Canada has been a big stressor because not only were there tariffs, but in retaliation they have pretty much removed U.S. alcohol from their shelves for over a year now. That is a pretty big hit to a lot of California wineries that export there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s the U.S.’s biggest export market for alcohol, worth about $1 billion. So any wineries that were exporting to Canada are definitely feeling that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And that may not reverse, right? Because I’ve read that Canadian sales of homegrown wines have soared, which means buyers may turn to their local supplies instead. That may be a permanent change that we could see.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Lander:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I hope not. I think even a lot of Canadians would like to have their American alcohol back on the shelves. There are a lot more options.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Obviously, they’re probably buying more European wines now. So we’ll see. I have faith that it’s not permanent, but I will admit I’m pretty surprised at how long it’s gone on. I thought it might only last a few months, and they’re still holding strong.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Steve, what about you? Have tariffs hit your business?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve McIntyre:\u003c/strong> Yeah, they certainly have. We were getting all of our glass from China, and that tariff, of course, was one of the worst.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And to build on what Jess said about Canada, one of our biggest markets in California is Palm Desert. We see the Canadian snowbirds there, and they’re still drinking a lot of California wine, and they really miss it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But it’s a shame we have these political barriers to contend with.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And are those costs already trickling down to the consumer? Have you had to raise your prices because of the tariffs?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve McIntyre:\u003c/strong> We’ve not been able to raise prices because of the supply being so large. There’s not enough demand to really increase prices.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Those that have certainly have suffered the consequences with declining depletion. So no, we can’t pass it down. It’s nothing more than a tax, that’s for sure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And so you’re getting squeezed. Basically, the business itself is getting squeezed. You’re having to absorb those financial hits.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve McIntyre:\u003c/strong> That’s exactly right. The entire business is. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Well, I want to bring in \u003cstrong>Ben Montpetit\u003c/strong>, Richard M. Kunde Endowed Chair in Viticulture and Enology and Professor & Marvin Sands Department Chair at UC Davis.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just to kind of cap what we’ve heard there from Jess and Steve, how are you viewing this moment, Ben? Do you feel like this is just a hard moment, or is this a longer trend that we’ll see?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Montpetit:\u003c/strong> Yeah, thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In talking to stakeholders across California and what we’re seeing, it really is a bit of a change. It’s not going to be just a dip and then come back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The change is really going to be on the industry side. They’re thinking about how to engage with the next generation of consumers, what they’re looking for in these products. They’re thinking about innovation and opportunities for change.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that’s where I remain optimistic about the future. Talking to those stakeholders, they’re not sitting idle. They’re looking to innovate and bring new products to market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Even the discussion we’ve been having about fields and vines being ripped out — I know many producers who are thinking about the opportunities there to plant new varieties and do something a little bit different.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Well, we’ll talk about some of those innovations after the break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’d love to hear from listeners. Are you drinking less wine? Why are you drinking less wine? Maybe you’re Gen Z. Do you drink wine? Why or why not? Do you like to buy from specific California regions? Tell us about those.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can email your comments or questions to \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. You can find us on any of the social platforms — Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram — we’re @KQEDForum.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Or you can give us a call right now at 866-733-6786. Again, that’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Maybe you’re in the business. Maybe you’re feeling some of these stress points. We’d love to hear about it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Stay with us. We’ll be right back after this break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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