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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Wednesday, September 9, 2026 at 9am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Rents are shooting through the roof in San Francisco as the AI boom creates yet another new class of wealthy people. The average rent for a two-bedroom apartment in the city is now $4,600, according to Apartment List, up more than 25% from last year. Some landlords are looking to cash in by clearing out tenants from rent-controlled homes, so renters say they’re being offered massive buyouts – some above six figures – to leave their apartments or else face no-fault eviction. We’ll talk about wild times in San Francisco’s rental market and how landlords, renters and those in search for a place to live are adjusting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Kami Rieck,\u003c/strong> contributing writer New York Times, based in San Francisco\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Tuesday Thornton,\u003c/strong> organizer with the San Francisco Anti-Displacement Coalition, eviction defense lawyer and part of the tenants union\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Joshua Howard,\u003c/strong> executive vice president, California Apartment Association\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen,\u003c/strong> Bay Area housing reporter, San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stop me if you’ve heard this one before: rents are going up in San Francisco. Just a quick history of the subject. In San Francisco, rents have been going up for a long time, with some major exceptions, the busts that have followed various tech booms. Of course, it was the pandemic that actually sent rents down — actually down for a time — but they bounced back, and now they are exceeding the absolute and inflation-adjusted numbers of recent history.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re going to explore the dynamics of the rental market this morning. What’s the same as always? What might be different this time around? And we’re going to hear your stories of woe and triumph. Although mostly woe, I’m guessing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Joining us first to set the stage, we’ve got J.K. Dineen, Bay Area housing reporter with the \u003cem>SF Chronicle\u003c/em>, of course. Welcome, J.K.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Give us some numbers. Just put some meat on the bones here of how much have rents actually gone up. It seems extreme over the last year.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen:\u003c/strong> So rents are up 26% year over year, about 42% in the last five years. It’s very uneven. There’s some parts of the city where rents were up closer to 40%. And there’s places where they never really went down that much, like neighborhoods like the Sunset and the Richmond and Noe Valley that sort of became magnets during COVID, where people were escaping downtown and no longer needed to be at the office.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, yeah, now you’ve got $4,000 for a one-bedroom. You’ve got, you know, $5,500, $6,000 for two bedrooms. It’s just ridiculous. You would have to make $150,000 to afford a one-bedroom. I mean, a sous chef in San Francisco makes 80. A teacher makes 80, a fully credentialed K-through-12 teacher. And so it’s just the numbers are frightening, frightening, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> You’ve been around a long time. You’ve been reporting on this stuff for a long time. How do you compare the sort of current frenzy to previous times, like, you know, right before the pandemic?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen:\u003c/strong> I think it’s been faster, and I also think it has been more skewed towards the upper end of the market. I talked to a broker last week who said that he does both apartments and for sale, sort of focusing on the downtown neighborhoods, and he was saying that now about 15% of these high-end apartments, the tenants are offering to pay a full year in advance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He had one tenant at one of the Rincon Hill towers, the towers right at the base of the Bay Bridge. I think it was on the top floor or the second-highest floor. The landlord was asking $21,000, and the tenant paid a full year. So with first and last and security, the tenant put down over $250,000 for an apartment for a year.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I mean, I guess I want to ask: Is it the AI companies? Is that really what it is? That if you’re an AI person, you want to be in this city, you’re willing to pay kind of whatever it takes to be here?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen:\u003c/strong> I think that’s right. I also think that the, you know, the nature of work has changed. People want more space. So before the pandemic, there was a real move towards small units and tighter workspaces, too, just in terms of offices. And people were averaging — tech companies were averaging 100 square feet per worker and people building studios, the new construction, largely 600-square-foot, 500-square-foot studios.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And now it’s sort of the opposite. The AI companies are averaging closer to 200 square feet per employee, and people want space. They want to work from home, they want all the bells and whistles and gyms and yoga rooms and all that, too. But, yeah, so there’s just been a real shift.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Another thing we should ask about, because it’s obviously part of this, too: It’s not as if San Francisco has been building a lot of units, in particular market-rate units. I mean, it has kind of collapsed since the pandemic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> There’s —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen:\u003c/strong> Been zero, basically, built. Some on Treasure Island, about a thousand units have been built on Treasure Island. 555 Bryant is one building that was built during the pandemic that’s been wildly successful. Besides that, really none. You’ve had maybe some 30-unit, 40-unit, like smaller buildings in the Mission.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And now we’re seeing, finally, that developers are dusting off their plans and filing their permits and actually starting construction. But, you know, these buildings won’t be ready until, you know, Trump’s out of office, right? I mean, it is two years from the time you break ground to when people are moving in, at least.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And so we’re talking also just — the state had given the city of San Francisco a goal of over 10,000 units a year to build. And we’ve been falling far, far short of that. Is it just interest rates? Is that the kind of main answer there? Or was it just that people weren’t really willing to bet on San Francisco in that kind of wobbly early post-pandemic time?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it’s both. I mean, interest rates, operating expenses, everything went up 30% in terms of expenses, and construction costs went up 20%, 30%. And rents were flat for a long time or even down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And some neighborhoods that actually did produce a lot of housing, like SoMa and Civic Center, that’s where rents are down the most. And so you saw, you know, in some cases, rents were down 30%. No longer is that the case.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I know people want to hear some of the Oakland side of this story. Last time J.K. was on, we talked a lot about that as well. Building of these one-bedroom apartments in Oakland seemed to be holding rents down there, at least for a time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So you’ve got these buildings. We’ve got what we’ve basically got, the housing stock that we have. And so that has led to all of these strange things happening in the rental market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kami Rieck is a contributing writer for \u003cem>The New York Times\u003c/em> based in San Francisco, who has written about the buyouts that are happening. Kami, welcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kami Rieck:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So the thing that’s wild about these buyouts, at least this is how I understand what happens: There’s a landlord and there’s a renter, and the landlord wants to say, sell the building. So they go to the tenants and they say, okay, I can’t kick you out necessarily. So here’s X number of dollars to just leave so that I can do something with this building. Tell me some of those stories that you’ve heard. How much are people getting in these buyouts? What are these negotiations like? Like, what’s the deal?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kami Rieck:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so since rents are rising, there’s a lot of landlords who might want to charge, especially tenants who have lived there for decades, who are covered by rent control. They may want to charge market-rate rent to a new tenant, or they might want to pursue a no-fault eviction through the Ellis Act if they want to take the entirety, all of the property’s units, off the market or, say, move into the building.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, um, these landlords are allowed to offer tenants a buyout. And I think the most that I saw, the people that I talked to, they accepted $100,000 to move out of their five-bedroom. This was split among five different people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The landlord I talked to, he always knew that he wanted to sell his luxury building in Nob Hill, and the market has never been more competitive right now. And in these instances, I think the attorneys that represent tenants have said that tenants actually have a lot of leverage here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For this instance, the landlord acknowledged that he wouldn’t be able to sell the building if it was occupied. And it would be —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Certainly not.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kami Rieck:\u003c/strong> It wouldn’t be as valuable. And even if he were to go through the no-fault eviction, that could take up to a year. That’s time that’s not on the rental market. He can’t do the renovations that he wanted. So he was incentivized to buy out these people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think after talking to them, it was in the middle of the summer. The rents are astronomical. They would have preferred to stay in their current apartment, but they also know that, okay, my landlord can also pursue a no-fault eviction, which would only require my landlord to pay me the minimum payment required by law. So do I take this risk of being left with that minimum relocation payment?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I mean, it’s also — it’s so interesting because, of course, $100,000 sounds like a lot, but in the San Francisco home purchase market, it ends up being a point whatever, right? It’s point one. So, you know, eventually the building that you’re describing listed for seven point something?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kami Rieck:\u003c/strong> Seven point 25 million.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so there you go. I mean, he now — so he didn’t list it for 7.15. He’s listed for 7.25 and made his money back. I mean, that’s a really interesting scenario.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, J.K., do you remember seeing buyouts like this at any other time?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen:\u003c/strong> I think this is precedent-setting. There’s certainly buyouts that you heard about during the — we call it the app boom or the Twitter boom in 2015-16. But I don’t remember seeing much over like 80 grand, maybe 100. But now you’re seeing a lot higher than that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I mean, one of the people in your story, Kami, that had to admire the gumption — I think their landlord offered a few $10,000, and they countered with $600,000 or something crazy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kami Rieck:\u003c/strong> Yeah, he is actually facing eviction, and he’s lived in the apartment for about 40 years and has been protected by rent control, so was paying way below market. And, you know, like you said, these buyouts seem like so much, but an attorney that represents tenants was telling me that with today’s competitive prices and demand for housing, the costs that it would take to move to even find a comparable place in the Bay — like, pay for lawyers, potentially moving costs — that really eats in very quickly to the buyout payment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the $600,000 was what I think this tenant calculated the potential rent difference in today’s market by 20 years, how long he expects to live.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, man.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re talking about the San Francisco rental market. What’s happening with it? What are the dynamics driving it? How’s it working similarly to previous booms and also a little bit different as well?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re joined by Kami Rieck, who is a contributing writer with \u003cem>The New York Times\u003c/em> based in San Francisco. We’ve also got the \u003cem>Chronicle\u003c/em>‘s J.K. Dineen, of course, who covers housing for the \u003cem>Chronicle\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re going to talk with an eviction defense lawyer and someone from the California Apartment Association after the break. And, of course, we also want to hear from you. Are you looking to rent in San Francisco right now? So sorry. How’s the search been for you? What have you noticed? Maybe you’re a current tenant. Are you worried about eviction? Maybe you are a landlord and you’re trying to manage these dynamics right now as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Give us a call: 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can email forum@kqed.org, or you can find us on social media — BlueSky, Instagram, Discord, or KQED Forum. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned for more.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Rents are shooting through the roof in San Francisco as the AI boom creates yet another new class of wealthy people. The average rent for a two-bedroom apartment in the city is now $4,600, according to Apartment List, up more than 25% from last year. Some landlords are looking to cash in by clearing out tenants from rent-controlled homes, so renters say they’re being offered massive buyouts – some above six figures – to leave their apartments or else face no-fault eviction. We’ll talk about wild times in San Francisco’s rental market and how landlords, renters and those in search for a place to live are adjusting.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Rents are shooting through the roof in San Francisco as the AI boom creates yet another new class of wealthy people. The average rent for a two-bedroom apartment in the city is now $4,600, according to Apartment List, up more than 25% from last year. Some landlords are looking to cash in by clearing out tenants from rent-controlled homes, so renters say they’re being offered massive buyouts – some above six figures – to leave their apartments or else face no-fault eviction. We’ll talk about wild times in San Francisco’s rental market and how landlords, renters and those in search for a place to live are adjusting.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Kami Rieck,\u003c/strong> contributing writer New York Times, based in San Francisco\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Tuesday Thornton,\u003c/strong> organizer with the San Francisco Anti-Displacement Coalition, eviction defense lawyer and part of the tenants union\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stop me if you’ve heard this one before: rents are going up in San Francisco. Just a quick history of the subject. In San Francisco, rents have been going up for a long time, with some major exceptions, the busts that have followed various tech booms. Of course, it was the pandemic that actually sent rents down — actually down for a time — but they bounced back, and now they are exceeding the absolute and inflation-adjusted numbers of recent history.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stop me if you’ve heard this one before: rents are going up in San Francisco. Just a quick history of the subject. In San Francisco, rents have been going up for a long time, with some major exceptions, the busts that have followed various tech booms. Of course, it was the pandemic that actually sent rents down — actually down for a time — but they bounced back, and now they are exceeding the absolute and inflation-adjusted numbers of recent history.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’re going to explore the dynamics of the rental market this morning. What’s the same as always? What might be different this time around? And we’re going to hear your stories of woe and triumph. Although mostly woe, I’m guessing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We’re going to explore the dynamics of the rental market this morning. What’s the same as always? What might be different this time around? And we’re going to hear your stories of woe and triumph. Although mostly woe, I’m guessing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Joining us first to set the stage, we’ve got J.K. Dineen, Bay Area housing reporter with the \u003cem>SF Chronicle\u003c/em>, of course. Welcome, J.K.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Joining us first to set the stage, we’ve got J.K. Dineen, Bay Area housing reporter with the \u003cem>SF Chronicle\u003c/em>, of course. Welcome, J.K.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Give us some numbers. Just put some meat on the bones here of how much have rents actually gone up. It seems extreme over the last year.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Give us some numbers. Just put some meat on the bones here of how much have rents actually gone up. It seems extreme over the last year.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen:\u003c/strong> So rents are up 26% year over year, about 42% in the last five years. It’s very uneven. There’s some parts of the city where rents were up closer to 40%. And there’s places where they never really went down that much, like neighborhoods like the Sunset and the Richmond and Noe Valley that sort of became magnets during COVID, where people were escaping downtown and no longer needed to be at the office.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen:\u003c/strong> So rents are up 26% year over year, about 42% in the last five years. It’s very uneven. There’s some parts of the city where rents were up closer to 40%. And there’s places where they never really went down that much, like neighborhoods like the Sunset and the Richmond and Noe Valley that sort of became magnets during COVID, where people were escaping downtown and no longer needed to be at the office.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so, yeah, now you’ve got $4,000 for a one-bedroom. You’ve got, you know, $5,500, $6,000 for two bedrooms. It’s just ridiculous. You would have to make $150,000 to afford a one-bedroom. I mean, a sous chef in San Francisco makes 80. A teacher makes 80, a fully credentialed K-through-12 teacher. And so it’s just the numbers are frightening, frightening, yeah.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so, yeah, now you’ve got $4,000 for a one-bedroom. You’ve got, you know, $5,500, $6,000 for two bedrooms. It’s just ridiculous. You would have to make $150,000 to afford a one-bedroom. I mean, a sous chef in San Francisco makes 80. A teacher makes 80, a fully credentialed K-through-12 teacher. And so it’s just the numbers are frightening, frightening, yeah.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> You’ve been around a long time. You’ve been reporting on this stuff for a long time. How do you compare the sort of current frenzy to previous times, like, you know, right before the pandemic?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> You’ve been around a long time. You’ve been reporting on this stuff for a long time. How do you compare the sort of current frenzy to previous times, like, you know, right before the pandemic?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen:\u003c/strong> I think it’s been faster, and I also think it has been more skewed towards the upper end of the market. I talked to a broker last week who said that he does both apartments and for sale, sort of focusing on the downtown neighborhoods, and he was saying that now about 15% of these high-end apartments, the tenants are offering to pay a full year in advance.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen:\u003c/strong> I think it’s been faster, and I also think it has been more skewed towards the upper end of the market. I talked to a broker last week who said that he does both apartments and for sale, sort of focusing on the downtown neighborhoods, and he was saying that now about 15% of these high-end apartments, the tenants are offering to pay a full year in advance.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He had one tenant at one of the Rincon Hill towers, the towers right at the base of the Bay Bridge. I think it was on the top floor or the second-highest floor. The landlord was asking $21,000, and the tenant paid a full year. So with first and last and security, the tenant put down over $250,000 for an apartment for a year.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>He had one tenant at one of the Rincon Hill towers, the towers right at the base of the Bay Bridge. I think it was on the top floor or the second-highest floor. The landlord was asking $21,000, and the tenant paid a full year. So with first and last and security, the tenant put down over $250,000 for an apartment for a year.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I mean, I guess I want to ask: Is it the AI companies? Is that really what it is? That if you’re an AI person, you want to be in this city, you’re willing to pay kind of whatever it takes to be here?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I mean, I guess I want to ask: Is it the AI companies? Is that really what it is? That if you’re an AI person, you want to be in this city, you’re willing to pay kind of whatever it takes to be here?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen:\u003c/strong> I think that’s right. I also think that the, you know, the nature of work has changed. People want more space. So before the pandemic, there was a real move towards small units and tighter workspaces, too, just in terms of offices. And people were averaging — tech companies were averaging 100 square feet per worker and people building studios, the new construction, largely 600-square-foot, 500-square-foot studios.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen:\u003c/strong> I think that’s right. I also think that the, you know, the nature of work has changed. People want more space. So before the pandemic, there was a real move towards small units and tighter workspaces, too, just in terms of offices. And people were averaging — tech companies were averaging 100 square feet per worker and people building studios, the new construction, largely 600-square-foot, 500-square-foot studios.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And now it’s sort of the opposite. The AI companies are averaging closer to 200 square feet per employee, and people want space. They want to work from home, they want all the bells and whistles and gyms and yoga rooms and all that, too. But, yeah, so there’s just been a real shift.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And now it’s sort of the opposite. The AI companies are averaging closer to 200 square feet per employee, and people want space. They want to work from home, they want all the bells and whistles and gyms and yoga rooms and all that, too. But, yeah, so there’s just been a real shift.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Another thing we should ask about, because it’s obviously part of this, too: It’s not as if San Francisco has been building a lot of units, in particular market-rate units. I mean, it has kind of collapsed since the pandemic.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Another thing we should ask about, because it’s obviously part of this, too: It’s not as if San Francisco has been building a lot of units, in particular market-rate units. I mean, it has kind of collapsed since the pandemic.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> There’s —\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen:\u003c/strong> Been zero, basically, built. Some on Treasure Island, about a thousand units have been built on Treasure Island. 555 Bryant is one building that was built during the pandemic that’s been wildly successful. Besides that, really none. You’ve had maybe some 30-unit, 40-unit, like smaller buildings in the Mission.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen:\u003c/strong> Been zero, basically, built. Some on Treasure Island, about a thousand units have been built on Treasure Island. 555 Bryant is one building that was built during the pandemic that’s been wildly successful. Besides that, really none. You’ve had maybe some 30-unit, 40-unit, like smaller buildings in the Mission.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And now we’re seeing, finally, that developers are dusting off their plans and filing their permits and actually starting construction. But, you know, these buildings won’t be ready until, you know, Trump’s out of office, right? I mean, it is two years from the time you break ground to when people are moving in, at least.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And now we’re seeing, finally, that developers are dusting off their plans and filing their permits and actually starting construction. But, you know, these buildings won’t be ready until, you know, Trump’s out of office, right? I mean, it is two years from the time you break ground to when people are moving in, at least.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And so we’re talking also just — the state had given the city of San Francisco a goal of over 10,000 units a year to build. And we’ve been falling far, far short of that. Is it just interest rates? Is that the kind of main answer there? Or was it just that people weren’t really willing to bet on San Francisco in that kind of wobbly early post-pandemic time?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And so we’re talking also just — the state had given the city of San Francisco a goal of over 10,000 units a year to build. And we’ve been falling far, far short of that. Is it just interest rates? Is that the kind of main answer there? Or was it just that people weren’t really willing to bet on San Francisco in that kind of wobbly early post-pandemic time?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it’s both. I mean, interest rates, operating expenses, everything went up 30% in terms of expenses, and construction costs went up 20%, 30%. And rents were flat for a long time or even down.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it’s both. I mean, interest rates, operating expenses, everything went up 30% in terms of expenses, and construction costs went up 20%, 30%. And rents were flat for a long time or even down.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And some neighborhoods that actually did produce a lot of housing, like SoMa and Civic Center, that’s where rents are down the most. And so you saw, you know, in some cases, rents were down 30%. No longer is that the case.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And some neighborhoods that actually did produce a lot of housing, like SoMa and Civic Center, that’s where rents are down the most. And so you saw, you know, in some cases, rents were down 30%. No longer is that the case.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I know people want to hear some of the Oakland side of this story. Last time J.K. was on, we talked a lot about that as well. Building of these one-bedroom apartments in Oakland seemed to be holding rents down there, at least for a time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I know people want to hear some of the Oakland side of this story. Last time J.K. was on, we talked a lot about that as well. Building of these one-bedroom apartments in Oakland seemed to be holding rents down there, at least for a time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So you’ve got these buildings. We’ve got what we’ve basically got, the housing stock that we have. And so that has led to all of these strange things happening in the rental market.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So you’ve got these buildings. We’ve got what we’ve basically got, the housing stock that we have. And so that has led to all of these strange things happening in the rental market.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Kami Rieck is a contributing writer for \u003cem>The New York Times\u003c/em> based in San Francisco, who has written about the buyouts that are happening. Kami, welcome.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Kami Rieck is a contributing writer for \u003cem>The New York Times\u003c/em> based in San Francisco, who has written about the buyouts that are happening. Kami, welcome.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kami Rieck:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kami Rieck:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So the thing that’s wild about these buyouts, at least this is how I understand what happens: There’s a landlord and there’s a renter, and the landlord wants to say, sell the building. So they go to the tenants and they say, okay, I can’t kick you out necessarily. So here’s X number of dollars to just leave so that I can do something with this building. Tell me some of those stories that you’ve heard. How much are people getting in these buyouts? What are these negotiations like? Like, what’s the deal?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So the thing that’s wild about these buyouts, at least this is how I understand what happens: There’s a landlord and there’s a renter, and the landlord wants to say, sell the building. So they go to the tenants and they say, okay, I can’t kick you out necessarily. So here’s X number of dollars to just leave so that I can do something with this building. Tell me some of those stories that you’ve heard. How much are people getting in these buyouts? What are these negotiations like? Like, what’s the deal?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kami Rieck:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so since rents are rising, there’s a lot of landlords who might want to charge, especially tenants who have lived there for decades, who are covered by rent control. They may want to charge market-rate rent to a new tenant, or they might want to pursue a no-fault eviction through the Ellis Act if they want to take the entirety, all of the property’s units, off the market or, say, move into the building.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kami Rieck:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so since rents are rising, there’s a lot of landlords who might want to charge, especially tenants who have lived there for decades, who are covered by rent control. They may want to charge market-rate rent to a new tenant, or they might want to pursue a no-fault eviction through the Ellis Act if they want to take the entirety, all of the property’s units, off the market or, say, move into the building.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, um, these landlords are allowed to offer tenants a buyout. And I think the most that I saw, the people that I talked to, they accepted $100,000 to move out of their five-bedroom. This was split among five different people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, um, these landlords are allowed to offer tenants a buyout. And I think the most that I saw, the people that I talked to, they accepted $100,000 to move out of their five-bedroom. This was split among five different people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The landlord I talked to, he always knew that he wanted to sell his luxury building in Nob Hill, and the market has never been more competitive right now. And in these instances, I think the attorneys that represent tenants have said that tenants actually have a lot of leverage here.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The landlord I talked to, he always knew that he wanted to sell his luxury building in Nob Hill, and the market has never been more competitive right now. And in these instances, I think the attorneys that represent tenants have said that tenants actually have a lot of leverage here.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For this instance, the landlord acknowledged that he wouldn’t be able to sell the building if it was occupied. And it would be —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For this instance, the landlord acknowledged that he wouldn’t be able to sell the building if it was occupied. And it would be —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Certainly not.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Certainly not.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kami Rieck:\u003c/strong> It wouldn’t be as valuable. And even if he were to go through the no-fault eviction, that could take up to a year. That’s time that’s not on the rental market. He can’t do the renovations that he wanted. So he was incentivized to buy out these people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kami Rieck:\u003c/strong> It wouldn’t be as valuable. And even if he were to go through the no-fault eviction, that could take up to a year. That’s time that’s not on the rental market. He can’t do the renovations that he wanted. So he was incentivized to buy out these people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think after talking to them, it was in the middle of the summer. The rents are astronomical. They would have preferred to stay in their current apartment, but they also know that, okay, my landlord can also pursue a no-fault eviction, which would only require my landlord to pay me the minimum payment required by law. So do I take this risk of being left with that minimum relocation payment?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think after talking to them, it was in the middle of the summer. The rents are astronomical. They would have preferred to stay in their current apartment, but they also know that, okay, my landlord can also pursue a no-fault eviction, which would only require my landlord to pay me the minimum payment required by law. So do I take this risk of being left with that minimum relocation payment?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I mean, it’s also — it’s so interesting because, of course, $100,000 sounds like a lot, but in the San Francisco home purchase market, it ends up being a point whatever, right? It’s point one. So, you know, eventually the building that you’re describing listed for seven point something?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I mean, it’s also — it’s so interesting because, of course, $100,000 sounds like a lot, but in the San Francisco home purchase market, it ends up being a point whatever, right? It’s point one. So, you know, eventually the building that you’re describing listed for seven point something?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kami Rieck:\u003c/strong> Seven point 25 million.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kami Rieck:\u003c/strong> Seven point 25 million.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so there you go. I mean, he now — so he didn’t list it for 7.15. He’s listed for 7.25 and made his money back. I mean, that’s a really interesting scenario.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so there you go. I mean, he now — so he didn’t list it for 7.15. He’s listed for 7.25 and made his money back. I mean, that’s a really interesting scenario.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I mean, J.K., do you remember seeing buyouts like this at any other time?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I mean, J.K., do you remember seeing buyouts like this at any other time?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen:\u003c/strong> I think this is precedent-setting. There’s certainly buyouts that you heard about during the — we call it the app boom or the Twitter boom in 2015-16. But I don’t remember seeing much over like 80 grand, maybe 100. But now you’re seeing a lot higher than that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen:\u003c/strong> I think this is precedent-setting. There’s certainly buyouts that you heard about during the — we call it the app boom or the Twitter boom in 2015-16. But I don’t remember seeing much over like 80 grand, maybe 100. But now you’re seeing a lot higher than that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I mean, one of the people in your story, Kami, that had to admire the gumption — I think their landlord offered a few $10,000, and they countered with $600,000 or something crazy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I mean, one of the people in your story, Kami, that had to admire the gumption — I think their landlord offered a few $10,000, and they countered with $600,000 or something crazy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kami Rieck:\u003c/strong> Yeah, he is actually facing eviction, and he’s lived in the apartment for about 40 years and has been protected by rent control, so was paying way below market. And, you know, like you said, these buyouts seem like so much, but an attorney that represents tenants was telling me that with today’s competitive prices and demand for housing, the costs that it would take to move to even find a comparable place in the Bay — like, pay for lawyers, potentially moving costs — that really eats in very quickly to the buyout payment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kami Rieck:\u003c/strong> Yeah, he is actually facing eviction, and he’s lived in the apartment for about 40 years and has been protected by rent control, so was paying way below market. And, you know, like you said, these buyouts seem like so much, but an attorney that represents tenants was telling me that with today’s competitive prices and demand for housing, the costs that it would take to move to even find a comparable place in the Bay — like, pay for lawyers, potentially moving costs — that really eats in very quickly to the buyout payment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the $600,000 was what I think this tenant calculated the potential rent difference in today’s market by 20 years, how long he expects to live.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the $600,000 was what I think this tenant calculated the potential rent difference in today’s market by 20 years, how long he expects to live.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, man.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, man.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’re talking about the San Francisco rental market. What’s happening with it? What are the dynamics driving it? How’s it working similarly to previous booms and also a little bit different as well?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We’re talking about the San Francisco rental market. What’s happening with it? What are the dynamics driving it? How’s it working similarly to previous booms and also a little bit different as well?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’re joined by Kami Rieck, who is a contributing writer with \u003cem>The New York Times\u003c/em> based in San Francisco. We’ve also got the \u003cem>Chronicle\u003c/em>‘s J.K. Dineen, of course, who covers housing for the \u003cem>Chronicle\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We’re joined by Kami Rieck, who is a contributing writer with \u003cem>The New York Times\u003c/em> based in San Francisco. We’ve also got the \u003cem>Chronicle\u003c/em>‘s J.K. Dineen, of course, who covers housing for the \u003cem>Chronicle\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’re going to talk with an eviction defense lawyer and someone from the California Apartment Association after the break. And, of course, we also want to hear from you. Are you looking to rent in San Francisco right now? So sorry. How’s the search been for you? What have you noticed? Maybe you’re a current tenant. Are you worried about eviction? Maybe you are a landlord and you’re trying to manage these dynamics right now as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We’re going to talk with an eviction defense lawyer and someone from the California Apartment Association after the break. And, of course, we also want to hear from you. Are you looking to rent in San Francisco right now? So sorry. How’s the search been for you? What have you noticed? Maybe you’re a current tenant. Are you worried about eviction? Maybe you are a landlord and you’re trying to manage these dynamics right now as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Give us a call: 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can email forum@kqed.org, or you can find us on social media — BlueSky, Instagram, Discord, or KQED Forum. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned for more.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Give us a call: 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can email forum@kqed.org, or you can find us on social media — BlueSky, Instagram, Discord, or KQED Forum. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned for more.\u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Wednesday, September 9, 2026 at 9am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Rents are shooting through the roof in San Francisco as the AI boom creates yet another new class of wealthy people. The average rent for a two-bedroom apartment in the city is now $4,600, according to Apartment List, up more than 25% from last year. Some landlords are looking to cash in by clearing out tenants from rent-controlled homes, so renters say they’re being offered massive buyouts – some above six figures – to leave their apartments or else face no-fault eviction. We’ll talk about wild times in San Francisco’s rental market and how landlords, renters and those in search for a place to live are adjusting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Kami Rieck,\u003c/strong> contributing writer New York Times, based in San Francisco\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Tuesday Thornton,\u003c/strong> organizer with the San Francisco Anti-Displacement Coalition, eviction defense lawyer and part of the tenants union\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Joshua Howard,\u003c/strong> executive vice president, California Apartment Association\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen,\u003c/strong> Bay Area housing reporter, San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stop me if you’ve heard this one before: rents are going up in San Francisco. Just a quick history of the subject. In San Francisco, rents have been going up for a long time, with some major exceptions, the busts that have followed various tech booms. Of course, it was the pandemic that actually sent rents down — actually down for a time — but they bounced back, and now they are exceeding the absolute and inflation-adjusted numbers of recent history.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re going to explore the dynamics of the rental market this morning. What’s the same as always? What might be different this time around? And we’re going to hear your stories of woe and triumph. Although mostly woe, I’m guessing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Joining us first to set the stage, we’ve got J.K. Dineen, Bay Area housing reporter with the \u003cem>SF Chronicle\u003c/em>, of course. Welcome, J.K.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Give us some numbers. Just put some meat on the bones here of how much have rents actually gone up. It seems extreme over the last year.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen:\u003c/strong> So rents are up 26% year over year, about 42% in the last five years. It’s very uneven. There’s some parts of the city where rents were up closer to 40%. And there’s places where they never really went down that much, like neighborhoods like the Sunset and the Richmond and Noe Valley that sort of became magnets during COVID, where people were escaping downtown and no longer needed to be at the office.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, yeah, now you’ve got $4,000 for a one-bedroom. You’ve got, you know, $5,500, $6,000 for two bedrooms. It’s just ridiculous. You would have to make $150,000 to afford a one-bedroom. I mean, a sous chef in San Francisco makes 80. A teacher makes 80, a fully credentialed K-through-12 teacher. And so it’s just the numbers are frightening, frightening, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> You’ve been around a long time. You’ve been reporting on this stuff for a long time. How do you compare the sort of current frenzy to previous times, like, you know, right before the pandemic?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen:\u003c/strong> I think it’s been faster, and I also think it has been more skewed towards the upper end of the market. I talked to a broker last week who said that he does both apartments and for sale, sort of focusing on the downtown neighborhoods, and he was saying that now about 15% of these high-end apartments, the tenants are offering to pay a full year in advance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He had one tenant at one of the Rincon Hill towers, the towers right at the base of the Bay Bridge. I think it was on the top floor or the second-highest floor. The landlord was asking $21,000, and the tenant paid a full year. So with first and last and security, the tenant put down over $250,000 for an apartment for a year.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I mean, I guess I want to ask: Is it the AI companies? Is that really what it is? That if you’re an AI person, you want to be in this city, you’re willing to pay kind of whatever it takes to be here?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen:\u003c/strong> I think that’s right. I also think that the, you know, the nature of work has changed. People want more space. So before the pandemic, there was a real move towards small units and tighter workspaces, too, just in terms of offices. And people were averaging — tech companies were averaging 100 square feet per worker and people building studios, the new construction, largely 600-square-foot, 500-square-foot studios.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And now it’s sort of the opposite. The AI companies are averaging closer to 200 square feet per employee, and people want space. They want to work from home, they want all the bells and whistles and gyms and yoga rooms and all that, too. But, yeah, so there’s just been a real shift.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Another thing we should ask about, because it’s obviously part of this, too: It’s not as if San Francisco has been building a lot of units, in particular market-rate units. I mean, it has kind of collapsed since the pandemic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> There’s —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen:\u003c/strong> Been zero, basically, built. Some on Treasure Island, about a thousand units have been built on Treasure Island. 555 Bryant is one building that was built during the pandemic that’s been wildly successful. Besides that, really none. You’ve had maybe some 30-unit, 40-unit, like smaller buildings in the Mission.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And now we’re seeing, finally, that developers are dusting off their plans and filing their permits and actually starting construction. But, you know, these buildings won’t be ready until, you know, Trump’s out of office, right? I mean, it is two years from the time you break ground to when people are moving in, at least.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And so we’re talking also just — the state had given the city of San Francisco a goal of over 10,000 units a year to build. And we’ve been falling far, far short of that. Is it just interest rates? Is that the kind of main answer there? Or was it just that people weren’t really willing to bet on San Francisco in that kind of wobbly early post-pandemic time?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it’s both. I mean, interest rates, operating expenses, everything went up 30% in terms of expenses, and construction costs went up 20%, 30%. And rents were flat for a long time or even down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And some neighborhoods that actually did produce a lot of housing, like SoMa and Civic Center, that’s where rents are down the most. And so you saw, you know, in some cases, rents were down 30%. No longer is that the case.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I know people want to hear some of the Oakland side of this story. Last time J.K. was on, we talked a lot about that as well. Building of these one-bedroom apartments in Oakland seemed to be holding rents down there, at least for a time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So you’ve got these buildings. We’ve got what we’ve basically got, the housing stock that we have. And so that has led to all of these strange things happening in the rental market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kami Rieck is a contributing writer for \u003cem>The New York Times\u003c/em> based in San Francisco, who has written about the buyouts that are happening. Kami, welcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kami Rieck:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So the thing that’s wild about these buyouts, at least this is how I understand what happens: There’s a landlord and there’s a renter, and the landlord wants to say, sell the building. So they go to the tenants and they say, okay, I can’t kick you out necessarily. So here’s X number of dollars to just leave so that I can do something with this building. Tell me some of those stories that you’ve heard. How much are people getting in these buyouts? What are these negotiations like? Like, what’s the deal?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kami Rieck:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so since rents are rising, there’s a lot of landlords who might want to charge, especially tenants who have lived there for decades, who are covered by rent control. They may want to charge market-rate rent to a new tenant, or they might want to pursue a no-fault eviction through the Ellis Act if they want to take the entirety, all of the property’s units, off the market or, say, move into the building.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, um, these landlords are allowed to offer tenants a buyout. And I think the most that I saw, the people that I talked to, they accepted $100,000 to move out of their five-bedroom. This was split among five different people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The landlord I talked to, he always knew that he wanted to sell his luxury building in Nob Hill, and the market has never been more competitive right now. And in these instances, I think the attorneys that represent tenants have said that tenants actually have a lot of leverage here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For this instance, the landlord acknowledged that he wouldn’t be able to sell the building if it was occupied. And it would be —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Certainly not.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kami Rieck:\u003c/strong> It wouldn’t be as valuable. And even if he were to go through the no-fault eviction, that could take up to a year. That’s time that’s not on the rental market. He can’t do the renovations that he wanted. So he was incentivized to buy out these people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think after talking to them, it was in the middle of the summer. The rents are astronomical. They would have preferred to stay in their current apartment, but they also know that, okay, my landlord can also pursue a no-fault eviction, which would only require my landlord to pay me the minimum payment required by law. So do I take this risk of being left with that minimum relocation payment?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I mean, it’s also — it’s so interesting because, of course, $100,000 sounds like a lot, but in the San Francisco home purchase market, it ends up being a point whatever, right? It’s point one. So, you know, eventually the building that you’re describing listed for seven point something?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kami Rieck:\u003c/strong> Seven point 25 million.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so there you go. I mean, he now — so he didn’t list it for 7.15. He’s listed for 7.25 and made his money back. I mean, that’s a really interesting scenario.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, J.K., do you remember seeing buyouts like this at any other time?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>J.K. Dineen:\u003c/strong> I think this is precedent-setting. There’s certainly buyouts that you heard about during the — we call it the app boom or the Twitter boom in 2015-16. But I don’t remember seeing much over like 80 grand, maybe 100. But now you’re seeing a lot higher than that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I mean, one of the people in your story, Kami, that had to admire the gumption — I think their landlord offered a few $10,000, and they countered with $600,000 or something crazy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kami Rieck:\u003c/strong> Yeah, he is actually facing eviction, and he’s lived in the apartment for about 40 years and has been protected by rent control, so was paying way below market. And, you know, like you said, these buyouts seem like so much, but an attorney that represents tenants was telling me that with today’s competitive prices and demand for housing, the costs that it would take to move to even find a comparable place in the Bay — like, pay for lawyers, potentially moving costs — that really eats in very quickly to the buyout payment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the $600,000 was what I think this tenant calculated the potential rent difference in today’s market by 20 years, how long he expects to live.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, man.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re talking about the San Francisco rental market. What’s happening with it? What are the dynamics driving it? How’s it working similarly to previous booms and also a little bit different as well?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re joined by Kami Rieck, who is a contributing writer with \u003cem>The New York Times\u003c/em> based in San Francisco. We’ve also got the \u003cem>Chronicle\u003c/em>‘s J.K. Dineen, of course, who covers housing for the \u003cem>Chronicle\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re going to talk with an eviction defense lawyer and someone from the California Apartment Association after the break. And, of course, we also want to hear from you. Are you looking to rent in San Francisco right now? So sorry. How’s the search been for you? What have you noticed? Maybe you’re a current tenant. Are you worried about eviction? Maybe you are a landlord and you’re trying to manage these dynamics right now as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Give us a call: 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can email forum@kqed.org, or you can find us on social media — BlueSky, Instagram, Discord, or KQED Forum. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned for more.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Wednesday, September 2, 2026 at 9am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Trump Administration is reportedly considering letting a private Nevada developer take control of a parcel of land in Yosemite National Park. Conservationists and elected officials have pushed back hard, though the Interior Department disputes parts of the reporting. We’ll talk about the consequences of privatizing a cherished landmark and the efforts to stop it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer,\u003c/strong> reporter covering government and policy with a focus on energy and environment, NOTUS – broke the story with her article, “Trump Is Quietly Working to Give Part of Yosemite to a Private Developer”\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>John Buckley,\u003c/strong> director, Central Sierra Environmental Resource Center an environmental group that’s worked for 35 years to defend water, wildlife, and wild places of the Northern Yosemite region\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jared Huffman, \u003c/strong>U.S. Representative, California’s 2nd congressional district; ranking member, House Natural Resources Committee\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Yosemite has been in government hands since Abraham Lincoln, in 1864, signed a congressional bill to give the valley to the state of California. It became a national park in 1890, about the time that the naturalist John Muir published one of his famous descriptions of Yosemite.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“No temple made with hands can compare with Yosemite,” he wrote. “Every rock and its wall seems to glow with life. Some lean back in majestic repose, others absolutely sheer or nearly so, for thousands of feet, advance beyond their companions in thoughtful attitudes, giving welcome to storms and calm alike, seemingly conscious yet heedless of everything going on about them.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>All things considered, though it was not the first national park — that’s Yellowstone — Yosemite Valley may be the single most important region for inspiring the preservation of lands as public parks for all people to enjoy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So when our first guest this morning published a story with the headline, “Trump Is Quietly Working to Give Part of Yosemite to a Private Developer,” it touched off a firestorm. This is how the ground. And here to tell us what she found, we’ve got Anna Kramer, a reporter covering government and policy with a focus on energy and environment for the new site, NOTUS. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> Hi. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So let’s just get the basics down here. What has been proposed, and what’s sort of the state that it’s in right now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> The proposal is for a small land swap between Yosemite National Park and a private developer. The Trump administration, inside the Interior Department, is currently trying to find a way to give a tiny piece of land within Yosemite just enough to build a quarter-mile stretch of road to a private developer that owns land just outside of Yosemite National Park, an 83-ish-acre undeveloped plot of land.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If they could get that small piece of land, they’d be able to build a road that connects the private property outside the park to a main road within the park. And in exchange, the developer would need to acquire land somewhere else in the state of California that’s worth equivalent value to give to the Park Service to make it a swap.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I mean, it’s interesting, though, because, you know, given the history of Yosemite Valley, it kind of seems impossible to calculate what would actually be some kind of comparable-value piece of land somewhere else.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> My understanding is that it’s pretty difficult, but the thing that’s important to understand is that the intrinsic importance of Yosemite National Park doesn’t get to go into that consideration.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> So it’s impossible to value, right, if you think about Yosemite National Park as something that is sort of invaluable. But really what we’re doing here is we’re talking about appraising a piece of land. And you figure out what’s on the land, you figure what it’s worth in the context of what’s around it. And it’s also probably the case that the increase in value of the private property outside the park may not factor much into the valuation of the land that will be exchanged. To the developer, if that makes sense, if this were to go through.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Interesting. How common are these kinds of land swaps?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> It depends on what you mean by how common. So with the federal government broadly, they’re quite common, and they’re often very popular because they’re used to try to fix problems that exist with federal government land.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You have these checkerboard patterns that exist across a large part of the American West, where you have private and public land next to each other in really inconvenient ways. And so a land swap that addresses that in a way that sort of expands the value of both the private and public land, sort of to the benefit of everyone, those kinds of land swaps tend to be somewhat popular and happen regularly.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Land swaps within the National Park Service are not nearly so common. Usually, if they do happen on a large scale, they involve Congress in one way or another. What we’re talking about here is not something that needs to involve Congress necessarily.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when they happen within the Park Service, they’re typically happening because the park has identified a need for a park. You know, the park needs to expand in some way. There’s a piece of extraordinarily valuable land that happens to house endangered species that could use extra protection. The kinds of things, you know, they want to build a new campsite. Those kinds of land swaps tend to be what you see when we see the Park Service pursuing them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So wouldn’t, generally speaking, be a private developer getting kind of — these are my words here — a sweetheart deal for a special road to their resort? Who is making the request? And is it a new idea to build this road to this piece of land?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> So the request currently is coming from this private developer, which is a Las Vegas-based company called Kingsbarn Realty Capital. They purchased this private piece of land outside of Yosemite in 2024 through a web of LLCs. The company itself is not the direct owner. And that purchase was from a previous developer who owned the plot of land for nearly a couple of decades.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The previous developer wanted to build a resort on the land and connect it with a small road to the main part of Yosemite National Park. And the Park Service, under the Bush and Obama administrations, said, no, absolutely not, we’re not going to do that. And they said no so firmly they ended up actually having to defend it in court, both in district court and then again on appeal. And they won.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the developer had no shot of getting this road built, the previous owner. So then this previous owner sells it to Kingsbarn Realty Capital’s web of LLCs in 2024. Kingsbarn Realty Capital goes to the Park Service under the Biden administration and says, we want to build this road. The Biden administration says, absolutely not. This is a long-dead issue. We’re not considering it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I spoke to the person who was the superintendent of Yosemite National Park at the time, who said that when she left Yosemite in early 2025, to her, this was obviously never going to happen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Hmm. What is the relationship between, say, you know, when we say in this case, like the Biden administration did this, the Trump administration did that, and then we have a Park Service official there? Like, what is the relationship supposed to be, and what is it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> Of course. So the way that Park Service is structured is it’s a bureau within the Department of Interior, and then the Department of Interior is led by a Cabinet secretary. In this case, it’s Doug Burgum, who’s a member of President Trump’s Cabinet.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so the way that this is working currently is the developer reached out to the Department of Interior about trying to pursue this land exchange. And my sources tell me the inside Interior, the political appointees, those who are chosen by Secretary Burgum or someone in the Trump administration, are those who are interested in making this land exchange happen, and they’ve been going to the longtime civil servants who work in the Park Service and telling them, you’ve got to make this happen, or we need to find a way to make it happen, or why isn’t it happening yet?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then the longtime civil servants are the folks who are responsible for actually doing the tasks that need doing to make it happen, right? So the appraisal of the land to determine how much it’s worth, which is one step that must occur before a land swap, that’s something that has to be done by someone who works at the Park Service who has expertise in that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Same thing goes for determining what the rules of the land swap are and what the processes are and what happens next. That stuff is all handled by longtime civil servants of the National Park Service.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Man, there’s so many different questions that rise out of this, but maybe the most important one is just why would the Trump administration be pushing the political appointees within the Department of Interior — that is to say, why would they be pushing on the Park Service to do this? Is it because, have you been able to find evidence of links between those particular people in the Trump administration and this developer, or is it more just a sort of general sense of wanting to be friendly to a developer who seems to have some idea for doing something?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> That’s something I’d really like an answer to and that I am currently reporting on and trying to find more details about. I think that’s the natural follow-up to this reporting, is to figure out precisely what connection exists, if it does, between the developer and political appointees inside the Interior Department.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think it’s an important question. Obviously, it’s important to understand what the reasons are that folks inside the Interior Department might be interested in making this happen. And it’s something that I intend to report on moving forward.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What I can tell you is my sources tell me there definitely is, or has been up until now, interest from the Interior Department in finding a way to make this happen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Hmm. So I just want to note for everyone listening that we did in fact reach out to the developer, at least the developer’s representative. What has that developer’s representative said to you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. So the developer’s representative has said to me that they are eager to pursue this land swap. And the sort of argument in favor of it is that what it would do is cut down the amount of drive time for anyone who’s visiting this private property that Kingsbarn Realty Capital purchased.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the property is currently quite far from Yosemite National Park, from Yosemite Valley. To get to the property, you have to drive through very long, winding Forest Service roads because the property is located in the Stanislaus National Forest. So the proposal would allow for a short road that would dramatically cut down the drive time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The developer’s representative says to me, you know, this is actually a really environmentally friendly thing to be doing because you’re literally reducing the pollution that is created in the area when you’re driving a much shorter amount of time than you are a long time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I mean, here is the greater question rising out of this for me, too. This is, as you said, it’s a fairly small piece of land. And Yosemite Valley itself, the core thing, is also fairly small, right? A mile wide, seven miles long, a tiny thing. Is the idea here that once a private developer is able to get their hooks in, in this new way, that it would spell bad things for the Park Service overall? Or is it really just about preserving the sanctity of Yosemite Valley?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> It’s both of those things. And it’s also about the National Park Service mission. So I’ll sort of run you through the various problems that people have.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I will say, we published this story, and the outpouring of responses, of extraordinary emotion, very negative emotion about what it is that the Park Service may do here — we’re still in the early stages of this — was really overwhelming. It’s important to understand just how strong the reaction has been.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the objections, there’s a couple of them. The first one is that the Park Service’s mission is to protect the parks both for our enjoyment today and unimpaired for future generations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To those who have worked for the Park Service, to people who defend the national parks as advocates, to conservationists, “unimpaired for future generations” means you really don’t mess with those. You do not cut into those boundaries at all for any reason, no matter what the reason may be.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it also means that you don’t — it’s not — they don’t consider it to be a very good idea to sort of create more private access to a park that is supposed to be for everyone.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then on top of that, you have the fear from conservationists that if you do this here in Yosemite, even in one small way, you do open the door to people all across the country saying, wait a minute, why don’t I capitalize on X or Y property near the park? Why can’t I?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> This is no third-tier national park. This is Yosemite, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I just wanted to note for people, we just had a question about where exactly the property is. It’s closest to the Big Oak Flat park entrance on the west side of the park, just for — we’ll come back to this in a sec.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re talking about how the Trump administration is reportedly considering allowing a private developer to take control of a quarter-mile strip of land in Yosemite. We’re joined by Anna Kramer, a reporter who broke the story about it at NOTUS. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned for more right after the break.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>John Buckley,\u003c/strong> director, Central Sierra Environmental Resource Center an environmental group that’s worked for 35 years to defend water, wildlife, and wild places of the Northern Yosemite region\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>John Buckley,\u003c/strong> director, Central Sierra Environmental Resource Center an environmental group that’s worked for 35 years to defend water, wildlife, and wild places of the Northern Yosemite region\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jared Huffman, \u003c/strong>U.S. Representative, California’s 2nd congressional district; ranking member, House Natural Resources Committee\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Yosemite has been in government hands since Abraham Lincoln, in 1864, signed a congressional bill to give the valley to the state of California. It became a national park in 1890, about the time that the naturalist John Muir published one of his famous descriptions of Yosemite.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Yosemite has been in government hands since Abraham Lincoln, in 1864, signed a congressional bill to give the valley to the state of California. It became a national park in 1890, about the time that the naturalist John Muir published one of his famous descriptions of Yosemite.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“No temple made with hands can compare with Yosemite,” he wrote. “Every rock and its wall seems to glow with life. Some lean back in majestic repose, others absolutely sheer or nearly so, for thousands of feet, advance beyond their companions in thoughtful attitudes, giving welcome to storms and calm alike, seemingly conscious yet heedless of everything going on about them.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“No temple made with hands can compare with Yosemite,” he wrote. “Every rock and its wall seems to glow with life. Some lean back in majestic repose, others absolutely sheer or nearly so, for thousands of feet, advance beyond their companions in thoughtful attitudes, giving welcome to storms and calm alike, seemingly conscious yet heedless of everything going on about them.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>All things considered, though it was not the first national park — that’s Yellowstone — Yosemite Valley may be the single most important region for inspiring the preservation of lands as public parks for all people to enjoy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>All things considered, though it was not the first national park — that’s Yellowstone — Yosemite Valley may be the single most important region for inspiring the preservation of lands as public parks for all people to enjoy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So when our first guest this morning published a story with the headline, “Trump Is Quietly Working to Give Part of Yosemite to a Private Developer,” it touched off a firestorm. This is how the ground. And here to tell us what she found, we’ve got Anna Kramer, a reporter covering government and policy with a focus on energy and environment for the new site, NOTUS. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So when our first guest this morning published a story with the headline, “Trump Is Quietly Working to Give Part of Yosemite to a Private Developer,” it touched off a firestorm. This is how the ground. And here to tell us what she found, we’ve got Anna Kramer, a reporter covering government and policy with a focus on energy and environment for the new site, NOTUS. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> Hi. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> Hi. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So let’s just get the basics down here. What has been proposed, and what’s sort of the state that it’s in right now?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So let’s just get the basics down here. What has been proposed, and what’s sort of the state that it’s in right now?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> The proposal is for a small land swap between Yosemite National Park and a private developer. The Trump administration, inside the Interior Department, is currently trying to find a way to give a tiny piece of land within Yosemite just enough to build a quarter-mile stretch of road to a private developer that owns land just outside of Yosemite National Park, an 83-ish-acre undeveloped plot of land.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> The proposal is for a small land swap between Yosemite National Park and a private developer. The Trump administration, inside the Interior Department, is currently trying to find a way to give a tiny piece of land within Yosemite just enough to build a quarter-mile stretch of road to a private developer that owns land just outside of Yosemite National Park, an 83-ish-acre undeveloped plot of land.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If they could get that small piece of land, they’d be able to build a road that connects the private property outside the park to a main road within the park. And in exchange, the developer would need to acquire land somewhere else in the state of California that’s worth equivalent value to give to the Park Service to make it a swap.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>If they could get that small piece of land, they’d be able to build a road that connects the private property outside the park to a main road within the park. And in exchange, the developer would need to acquire land somewhere else in the state of California that’s worth equivalent value to give to the Park Service to make it a swap.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I mean, it’s interesting, though, because, you know, given the history of Yosemite Valley, it kind of seems impossible to calculate what would actually be some kind of comparable-value piece of land somewhere else.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I mean, it’s interesting, though, because, you know, given the history of Yosemite Valley, it kind of seems impossible to calculate what would actually be some kind of comparable-value piece of land somewhere else.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> My understanding is that it’s pretty difficult, but the thing that’s important to understand is that the intrinsic importance of Yosemite National Park doesn’t get to go into that consideration.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> My understanding is that it’s pretty difficult, but the thing that’s important to understand is that the intrinsic importance of Yosemite National Park doesn’t get to go into that consideration.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> So it’s impossible to value, right, if you think about Yosemite National Park as something that is sort of invaluable. But really what we’re doing here is we’re talking about appraising a piece of land. And you figure out what’s on the land, you figure what it’s worth in the context of what’s around it. And it’s also probably the case that the increase in value of the private property outside the park may not factor much into the valuation of the land that will be exchanged. To the developer, if that makes sense, if this were to go through.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> So it’s impossible to value, right, if you think about Yosemite National Park as something that is sort of invaluable. But really what we’re doing here is we’re talking about appraising a piece of land. And you figure out what’s on the land, you figure what it’s worth in the context of what’s around it. And it’s also probably the case that the increase in value of the private property outside the park may not factor much into the valuation of the land that will be exchanged. To the developer, if that makes sense, if this were to go through.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Interesting. How common are these kinds of land swaps?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Interesting. How common are these kinds of land swaps?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> It depends on what you mean by how common. So with the federal government broadly, they’re quite common, and they’re often very popular because they’re used to try to fix problems that exist with federal government land.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> It depends on what you mean by how common. So with the federal government broadly, they’re quite common, and they’re often very popular because they’re used to try to fix problems that exist with federal government land.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You have these checkerboard patterns that exist across a large part of the American West, where you have private and public land next to each other in really inconvenient ways. And so a land swap that addresses that in a way that sort of expands the value of both the private and public land, sort of to the benefit of everyone, those kinds of land swaps tend to be somewhat popular and happen regularly.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You have these checkerboard patterns that exist across a large part of the American West, where you have private and public land next to each other in really inconvenient ways. And so a land swap that addresses that in a way that sort of expands the value of both the private and public land, sort of to the benefit of everyone, those kinds of land swaps tend to be somewhat popular and happen regularly.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Land swaps within the National Park Service are not nearly so common. Usually, if they do happen on a large scale, they involve Congress in one way or another. What we’re talking about here is not something that needs to involve Congress necessarily.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Land swaps within the National Park Service are not nearly so common. Usually, if they do happen on a large scale, they involve Congress in one way or another. What we’re talking about here is not something that needs to involve Congress necessarily.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And when they happen within the Park Service, they’re typically happening because the park has identified a need for a park. You know, the park needs to expand in some way. There’s a piece of extraordinarily valuable land that happens to house endangered species that could use extra protection. The kinds of things, you know, they want to build a new campsite. Those kinds of land swaps tend to be what you see when we see the Park Service pursuing them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And when they happen within the Park Service, they’re typically happening because the park has identified a need for a park. You know, the park needs to expand in some way. There’s a piece of extraordinarily valuable land that happens to house endangered species that could use extra protection. The kinds of things, you know, they want to build a new campsite. Those kinds of land swaps tend to be what you see when we see the Park Service pursuing them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So wouldn’t, generally speaking, be a private developer getting kind of — these are my words here — a sweetheart deal for a special road to their resort? Who is making the request? And is it a new idea to build this road to this piece of land?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So wouldn’t, generally speaking, be a private developer getting kind of — these are my words here — a sweetheart deal for a special road to their resort? Who is making the request? And is it a new idea to build this road to this piece of land?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> So the request currently is coming from this private developer, which is a Las Vegas-based company called Kingsbarn Realty Capital. They purchased this private piece of land outside of Yosemite in 2024 through a web of LLCs. The company itself is not the direct owner. And that purchase was from a previous developer who owned the plot of land for nearly a couple of decades.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> So the request currently is coming from this private developer, which is a Las Vegas-based company called Kingsbarn Realty Capital. They purchased this private piece of land outside of Yosemite in 2024 through a web of LLCs. The company itself is not the direct owner. And that purchase was from a previous developer who owned the plot of land for nearly a couple of decades.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The previous developer wanted to build a resort on the land and connect it with a small road to the main part of Yosemite National Park. And the Park Service, under the Bush and Obama administrations, said, no, absolutely not, we’re not going to do that. And they said no so firmly they ended up actually having to defend it in court, both in district court and then again on appeal. And they won.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The previous developer wanted to build a resort on the land and connect it with a small road to the main part of Yosemite National Park. And the Park Service, under the Bush and Obama administrations, said, no, absolutely not, we’re not going to do that. And they said no so firmly they ended up actually having to defend it in court, both in district court and then again on appeal. And they won.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So the developer had no shot of getting this road built, the previous owner. So then this previous owner sells it to Kingsbarn Realty Capital’s web of LLCs in 2024. Kingsbarn Realty Capital goes to the Park Service under the Biden administration and says, we want to build this road. The Biden administration says, absolutely not. This is a long-dead issue. We’re not considering it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So the developer had no shot of getting this road built, the previous owner. So then this previous owner sells it to Kingsbarn Realty Capital’s web of LLCs in 2024. Kingsbarn Realty Capital goes to the Park Service under the Biden administration and says, we want to build this road. The Biden administration says, absolutely not. This is a long-dead issue. We’re not considering it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I spoke to the person who was the superintendent of Yosemite National Park at the time, who said that when she left Yosemite in early 2025, to her, this was obviously never going to happen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I spoke to the person who was the superintendent of Yosemite National Park at the time, who said that when she left Yosemite in early 2025, to her, this was obviously never going to happen.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Hmm. What is the relationship between, say, you know, when we say in this case, like the Biden administration did this, the Trump administration did that, and then we have a Park Service official there? Like, what is the relationship supposed to be, and what is it?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Hmm. What is the relationship between, say, you know, when we say in this case, like the Biden administration did this, the Trump administration did that, and then we have a Park Service official there? Like, what is the relationship supposed to be, and what is it?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> Of course. So the way that Park Service is structured is it’s a bureau within the Department of Interior, and then the Department of Interior is led by a Cabinet secretary. In this case, it’s Doug Burgum, who’s a member of President Trump’s Cabinet.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> Of course. So the way that Park Service is structured is it’s a bureau within the Department of Interior, and then the Department of Interior is led by a Cabinet secretary. In this case, it’s Doug Burgum, who’s a member of President Trump’s Cabinet.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so the way that this is working currently is the developer reached out to the Department of Interior about trying to pursue this land exchange. And my sources tell me the inside Interior, the political appointees, those who are chosen by Secretary Burgum or someone in the Trump administration, are those who are interested in making this land exchange happen, and they’ve been going to the longtime civil servants who work in the Park Service and telling them, you’ve got to make this happen, or we need to find a way to make it happen, or why isn’t it happening yet?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so the way that this is working currently is the developer reached out to the Department of Interior about trying to pursue this land exchange. And my sources tell me the inside Interior, the political appointees, those who are chosen by Secretary Burgum or someone in the Trump administration, are those who are interested in making this land exchange happen, and they’ve been going to the longtime civil servants who work in the Park Service and telling them, you’ve got to make this happen, or we need to find a way to make it happen, or why isn’t it happening yet?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then the longtime civil servants are the folks who are responsible for actually doing the tasks that need doing to make it happen, right? So the appraisal of the land to determine how much it’s worth, which is one step that must occur before a land swap, that’s something that has to be done by someone who works at the Park Service who has expertise in that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then the longtime civil servants are the folks who are responsible for actually doing the tasks that need doing to make it happen, right? So the appraisal of the land to determine how much it’s worth, which is one step that must occur before a land swap, that’s something that has to be done by someone who works at the Park Service who has expertise in that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Same thing goes for determining what the rules of the land swap are and what the processes are and what happens next. That stuff is all handled by longtime civil servants of the National Park Service.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Same thing goes for determining what the rules of the land swap are and what the processes are and what happens next. That stuff is all handled by longtime civil servants of the National Park Service.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Man, there’s so many different questions that rise out of this, but maybe the most important one is just why would the Trump administration be pushing the political appointees within the Department of Interior — that is to say, why would they be pushing on the Park Service to do this? Is it because, have you been able to find evidence of links between those particular people in the Trump administration and this developer, or is it more just a sort of general sense of wanting to be friendly to a developer who seems to have some idea for doing something?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Man, there’s so many different questions that rise out of this, but maybe the most important one is just why would the Trump administration be pushing the political appointees within the Department of Interior — that is to say, why would they be pushing on the Park Service to do this? Is it because, have you been able to find evidence of links between those particular people in the Trump administration and this developer, or is it more just a sort of general sense of wanting to be friendly to a developer who seems to have some idea for doing something?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> That’s something I’d really like an answer to and that I am currently reporting on and trying to find more details about. I think that’s the natural follow-up to this reporting, is to figure out precisely what connection exists, if it does, between the developer and political appointees inside the Interior Department.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> That’s something I’d really like an answer to and that I am currently reporting on and trying to find more details about. I think that’s the natural follow-up to this reporting, is to figure out precisely what connection exists, if it does, between the developer and political appointees inside the Interior Department.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think it’s an important question. Obviously, it’s important to understand what the reasons are that folks inside the Interior Department might be interested in making this happen. And it’s something that I intend to report on moving forward.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think it’s an important question. Obviously, it’s important to understand what the reasons are that folks inside the Interior Department might be interested in making this happen. And it’s something that I intend to report on moving forward.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What I can tell you is my sources tell me there definitely is, or has been up until now, interest from the Interior Department in finding a way to make this happen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What I can tell you is my sources tell me there definitely is, or has been up until now, interest from the Interior Department in finding a way to make this happen.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Hmm. So I just want to note for everyone listening that we did in fact reach out to the developer, at least the developer’s representative. What has that developer’s representative said to you?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Hmm. So I just want to note for everyone listening that we did in fact reach out to the developer, at least the developer’s representative. What has that developer’s representative said to you?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. So the developer’s representative has said to me that they are eager to pursue this land swap. And the sort of argument in favor of it is that what it would do is cut down the amount of drive time for anyone who’s visiting this private property that Kingsbarn Realty Capital purchased.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. So the developer’s representative has said to me that they are eager to pursue this land swap. And the sort of argument in favor of it is that what it would do is cut down the amount of drive time for anyone who’s visiting this private property that Kingsbarn Realty Capital purchased.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So the property is currently quite far from Yosemite National Park, from Yosemite Valley. To get to the property, you have to drive through very long, winding Forest Service roads because the property is located in the Stanislaus National Forest. So the proposal would allow for a short road that would dramatically cut down the drive time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So the property is currently quite far from Yosemite National Park, from Yosemite Valley. To get to the property, you have to drive through very long, winding Forest Service roads because the property is located in the Stanislaus National Forest. So the proposal would allow for a short road that would dramatically cut down the drive time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The developer’s representative says to me, you know, this is actually a really environmentally friendly thing to be doing because you’re literally reducing the pollution that is created in the area when you’re driving a much shorter amount of time than you are a long time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The developer’s representative says to me, you know, this is actually a really environmentally friendly thing to be doing because you’re literally reducing the pollution that is created in the area when you’re driving a much shorter amount of time than you are a long time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I mean, here is the greater question rising out of this for me, too. This is, as you said, it’s a fairly small piece of land. And Yosemite Valley itself, the core thing, is also fairly small, right? A mile wide, seven miles long, a tiny thing. Is the idea here that once a private developer is able to get their hooks in, in this new way, that it would spell bad things for the Park Service overall? Or is it really just about preserving the sanctity of Yosemite Valley?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I mean, here is the greater question rising out of this for me, too. This is, as you said, it’s a fairly small piece of land. And Yosemite Valley itself, the core thing, is also fairly small, right? A mile wide, seven miles long, a tiny thing. Is the idea here that once a private developer is able to get their hooks in, in this new way, that it would spell bad things for the Park Service overall? Or is it really just about preserving the sanctity of Yosemite Valley?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> It’s both of those things. And it’s also about the National Park Service mission. So I’ll sort of run you through the various problems that people have.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> It’s both of those things. And it’s also about the National Park Service mission. So I’ll sort of run you through the various problems that people have.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I will say, we published this story, and the outpouring of responses, of extraordinary emotion, very negative emotion about what it is that the Park Service may do here — we’re still in the early stages of this — was really overwhelming. It’s important to understand just how strong the reaction has been.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I will say, we published this story, and the outpouring of responses, of extraordinary emotion, very negative emotion about what it is that the Park Service may do here — we’re still in the early stages of this — was really overwhelming. It’s important to understand just how strong the reaction has been.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So the objections, there’s a couple of them. The first one is that the Park Service’s mission is to protect the parks both for our enjoyment today and unimpaired for future generations.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So the objections, there’s a couple of them. The first one is that the Park Service’s mission is to protect the parks both for our enjoyment today and unimpaired for future generations.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>To those who have worked for the Park Service, to people who defend the national parks as advocates, to conservationists, “unimpaired for future generations” means you really don’t mess with those. You do not cut into those boundaries at all for any reason, no matter what the reason may be.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>To those who have worked for the Park Service, to people who defend the national parks as advocates, to conservationists, “unimpaired for future generations” means you really don’t mess with those. You do not cut into those boundaries at all for any reason, no matter what the reason may be.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it also means that you don’t — it’s not — they don’t consider it to be a very good idea to sort of create more private access to a park that is supposed to be for everyone.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And it also means that you don’t — it’s not — they don’t consider it to be a very good idea to sort of create more private access to a park that is supposed to be for everyone.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then on top of that, you have the fear from conservationists that if you do this here in Yosemite, even in one small way, you do open the door to people all across the country saying, wait a minute, why don’t I capitalize on X or Y property near the park? Why can’t I?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then on top of that, you have the fear from conservationists that if you do this here in Yosemite, even in one small way, you do open the door to people all across the country saying, wait a minute, why don’t I capitalize on X or Y property near the park? Why can’t I?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> This is no third-tier national park. This is Yosemite, you know?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I just wanted to note for people, we just had a question about where exactly the property is. It’s closest to the Big Oak Flat park entrance on the west side of the park, just for — we’ll come back to this in a sec.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’re talking about how the Trump administration is reportedly considering allowing a private developer to take control of a quarter-mile strip of land in Yosemite. We’re joined by Anna Kramer, a reporter who broke the story about it at NOTUS. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned for more right after the break.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Wednesday, September 2, 2026 at 9am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Trump Administration is reportedly considering letting a private Nevada developer take control of a parcel of land in Yosemite National Park. Conservationists and elected officials have pushed back hard, though the Interior Department disputes parts of the reporting. We’ll talk about the consequences of privatizing a cherished landmark and the efforts to stop it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer,\u003c/strong> reporter covering government and policy with a focus on energy and environment, NOTUS – broke the story with her article, “Trump Is Quietly Working to Give Part of Yosemite to a Private Developer”\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>John Buckley,\u003c/strong> director, Central Sierra Environmental Resource Center an environmental group that’s worked for 35 years to defend water, wildlife, and wild places of the Northern Yosemite region\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jared Huffman, \u003c/strong>U.S. Representative, California’s 2nd congressional district; ranking member, House Natural Resources Committee\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Yosemite has been in government hands since Abraham Lincoln, in 1864, signed a congressional bill to give the valley to the state of California. It became a national park in 1890, about the time that the naturalist John Muir published one of his famous descriptions of Yosemite.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“No temple made with hands can compare with Yosemite,” he wrote. “Every rock and its wall seems to glow with life. Some lean back in majestic repose, others absolutely sheer or nearly so, for thousands of feet, advance beyond their companions in thoughtful attitudes, giving welcome to storms and calm alike, seemingly conscious yet heedless of everything going on about them.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>All things considered, though it was not the first national park — that’s Yellowstone — Yosemite Valley may be the single most important region for inspiring the preservation of lands as public parks for all people to enjoy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So when our first guest this morning published a story with the headline, “Trump Is Quietly Working to Give Part of Yosemite to a Private Developer,” it touched off a firestorm. This is how the ground. And here to tell us what she found, we’ve got Anna Kramer, a reporter covering government and policy with a focus on energy and environment for the new site, NOTUS. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> Hi. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So let’s just get the basics down here. What has been proposed, and what’s sort of the state that it’s in right now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> The proposal is for a small land swap between Yosemite National Park and a private developer. The Trump administration, inside the Interior Department, is currently trying to find a way to give a tiny piece of land within Yosemite just enough to build a quarter-mile stretch of road to a private developer that owns land just outside of Yosemite National Park, an 83-ish-acre undeveloped plot of land.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If they could get that small piece of land, they’d be able to build a road that connects the private property outside the park to a main road within the park. And in exchange, the developer would need to acquire land somewhere else in the state of California that’s worth equivalent value to give to the Park Service to make it a swap.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I mean, it’s interesting, though, because, you know, given the history of Yosemite Valley, it kind of seems impossible to calculate what would actually be some kind of comparable-value piece of land somewhere else.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> My understanding is that it’s pretty difficult, but the thing that’s important to understand is that the intrinsic importance of Yosemite National Park doesn’t get to go into that consideration.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> So it’s impossible to value, right, if you think about Yosemite National Park as something that is sort of invaluable. But really what we’re doing here is we’re talking about appraising a piece of land. And you figure out what’s on the land, you figure what it’s worth in the context of what’s around it. And it’s also probably the case that the increase in value of the private property outside the park may not factor much into the valuation of the land that will be exchanged. To the developer, if that makes sense, if this were to go through.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Interesting. How common are these kinds of land swaps?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> It depends on what you mean by how common. So with the federal government broadly, they’re quite common, and they’re often very popular because they’re used to try to fix problems that exist with federal government land.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You have these checkerboard patterns that exist across a large part of the American West, where you have private and public land next to each other in really inconvenient ways. And so a land swap that addresses that in a way that sort of expands the value of both the private and public land, sort of to the benefit of everyone, those kinds of land swaps tend to be somewhat popular and happen regularly.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Land swaps within the National Park Service are not nearly so common. Usually, if they do happen on a large scale, they involve Congress in one way or another. What we’re talking about here is not something that needs to involve Congress necessarily.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when they happen within the Park Service, they’re typically happening because the park has identified a need for a park. You know, the park needs to expand in some way. There’s a piece of extraordinarily valuable land that happens to house endangered species that could use extra protection. The kinds of things, you know, they want to build a new campsite. Those kinds of land swaps tend to be what you see when we see the Park Service pursuing them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So wouldn’t, generally speaking, be a private developer getting kind of — these are my words here — a sweetheart deal for a special road to their resort? Who is making the request? And is it a new idea to build this road to this piece of land?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> So the request currently is coming from this private developer, which is a Las Vegas-based company called Kingsbarn Realty Capital. They purchased this private piece of land outside of Yosemite in 2024 through a web of LLCs. The company itself is not the direct owner. And that purchase was from a previous developer who owned the plot of land for nearly a couple of decades.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The previous developer wanted to build a resort on the land and connect it with a small road to the main part of Yosemite National Park. And the Park Service, under the Bush and Obama administrations, said, no, absolutely not, we’re not going to do that. And they said no so firmly they ended up actually having to defend it in court, both in district court and then again on appeal. And they won.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the developer had no shot of getting this road built, the previous owner. So then this previous owner sells it to Kingsbarn Realty Capital’s web of LLCs in 2024. Kingsbarn Realty Capital goes to the Park Service under the Biden administration and says, we want to build this road. The Biden administration says, absolutely not. This is a long-dead issue. We’re not considering it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I spoke to the person who was the superintendent of Yosemite National Park at the time, who said that when she left Yosemite in early 2025, to her, this was obviously never going to happen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Hmm. What is the relationship between, say, you know, when we say in this case, like the Biden administration did this, the Trump administration did that, and then we have a Park Service official there? Like, what is the relationship supposed to be, and what is it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> Of course. So the way that Park Service is structured is it’s a bureau within the Department of Interior, and then the Department of Interior is led by a Cabinet secretary. In this case, it’s Doug Burgum, who’s a member of President Trump’s Cabinet.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so the way that this is working currently is the developer reached out to the Department of Interior about trying to pursue this land exchange. And my sources tell me the inside Interior, the political appointees, those who are chosen by Secretary Burgum or someone in the Trump administration, are those who are interested in making this land exchange happen, and they’ve been going to the longtime civil servants who work in the Park Service and telling them, you’ve got to make this happen, or we need to find a way to make it happen, or why isn’t it happening yet?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then the longtime civil servants are the folks who are responsible for actually doing the tasks that need doing to make it happen, right? So the appraisal of the land to determine how much it’s worth, which is one step that must occur before a land swap, that’s something that has to be done by someone who works at the Park Service who has expertise in that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Same thing goes for determining what the rules of the land swap are and what the processes are and what happens next. That stuff is all handled by longtime civil servants of the National Park Service.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Man, there’s so many different questions that rise out of this, but maybe the most important one is just why would the Trump administration be pushing the political appointees within the Department of Interior — that is to say, why would they be pushing on the Park Service to do this? Is it because, have you been able to find evidence of links between those particular people in the Trump administration and this developer, or is it more just a sort of general sense of wanting to be friendly to a developer who seems to have some idea for doing something?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> That’s something I’d really like an answer to and that I am currently reporting on and trying to find more details about. I think that’s the natural follow-up to this reporting, is to figure out precisely what connection exists, if it does, between the developer and political appointees inside the Interior Department.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think it’s an important question. Obviously, it’s important to understand what the reasons are that folks inside the Interior Department might be interested in making this happen. And it’s something that I intend to report on moving forward.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What I can tell you is my sources tell me there definitely is, or has been up until now, interest from the Interior Department in finding a way to make this happen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Hmm. So I just want to note for everyone listening that we did in fact reach out to the developer, at least the developer’s representative. What has that developer’s representative said to you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. So the developer’s representative has said to me that they are eager to pursue this land swap. And the sort of argument in favor of it is that what it would do is cut down the amount of drive time for anyone who’s visiting this private property that Kingsbarn Realty Capital purchased.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the property is currently quite far from Yosemite National Park, from Yosemite Valley. To get to the property, you have to drive through very long, winding Forest Service roads because the property is located in the Stanislaus National Forest. So the proposal would allow for a short road that would dramatically cut down the drive time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The developer’s representative says to me, you know, this is actually a really environmentally friendly thing to be doing because you’re literally reducing the pollution that is created in the area when you’re driving a much shorter amount of time than you are a long time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I mean, here is the greater question rising out of this for me, too. This is, as you said, it’s a fairly small piece of land. And Yosemite Valley itself, the core thing, is also fairly small, right? A mile wide, seven miles long, a tiny thing. Is the idea here that once a private developer is able to get their hooks in, in this new way, that it would spell bad things for the Park Service overall? Or is it really just about preserving the sanctity of Yosemite Valley?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anna Kramer:\u003c/strong> It’s both of those things. And it’s also about the National Park Service mission. So I’ll sort of run you through the various problems that people have.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I will say, we published this story, and the outpouring of responses, of extraordinary emotion, very negative emotion about what it is that the Park Service may do here — we’re still in the early stages of this — was really overwhelming. It’s important to understand just how strong the reaction has been.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the objections, there’s a couple of them. The first one is that the Park Service’s mission is to protect the parks both for our enjoyment today and unimpaired for future generations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To those who have worked for the Park Service, to people who defend the national parks as advocates, to conservationists, “unimpaired for future generations” means you really don’t mess with those. You do not cut into those boundaries at all for any reason, no matter what the reason may be.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it also means that you don’t — it’s not — they don’t consider it to be a very good idea to sort of create more private access to a park that is supposed to be for everyone.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then on top of that, you have the fear from conservationists that if you do this here in Yosemite, even in one small way, you do open the door to people all across the country saying, wait a minute, why don’t I capitalize on X or Y property near the park? Why can’t I?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> This is no third-tier national park. This is Yosemite, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I just wanted to note for people, we just had a question about where exactly the property is. It’s closest to the Big Oak Flat park entrance on the west side of the park, just for — we’ll come back to this in a sec.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re talking about how the Trump administration is reportedly considering allowing a private developer to take control of a quarter-mile strip of land in Yosemite. We’re joined by Anna Kramer, a reporter who broke the story about it at NOTUS. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned for more right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Tuesday, September 1, 2026\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wildfire season is underway in California, but the state’s wildfire fund is running low after billions went to victims of last year’s massive Altadena fire, sparked by faulty equipment owned by Southern California Edison. Governor Newsom and the legislature’s debate over fixing the wildfire fund has hinged on the extent utilities, insurance companies and homeowners would pay into it. We’ll dig into the details, and hear your thoughts on who should pay to rebuild after wildfires.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati,\u003c/strong> correspondent, KQED’s California Politics and Government Desk\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara,\u003c/strong> policy director for the Sustainability Accelerator at the Doerr School of Sustainability, director of the Climate and Energy Policy Program, senior research scholar at the Woods Institute for the Environment, Stanford University\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Joy Chen,\u003c/strong> executive director, Every Fire Survivor’s Network\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. State lawmakers are voting today on an agreement with Governor Newsom that changes some of the rules governing wildfires caused by utilities. The deal, reached after months of closed-door negotiations, falls short of Newsom’s biggest goal of limiting liability for utilities, but it does build in some increased protections for ratepayers and creates a state program to get faster payments to wildfire victims. This hour, we dig into the details and the broader question of how to manage the costs of California’s increasingly destructive wildfires. Joining me this hour is Guy Marzorati, correspondent on KQED’s California Politics and Government Desk. Hi, Guy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Hey, good morning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And also with us is Michael Wara, senior research scholar at Stanford Woods Institute for the Environment. Michael, glad to have you with us, too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having me on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Guy, first take me back a bit and tell me when and why Newsom started making this push to limit utility companies’ liability.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so I guess just real bird’s-eye view, like, this is the politics of climate change in California in the 2020s. Like, it is a debate that’s no longer just about what emissions-reduction goals to set. It’s about how to deal with climate damages that are here. And when you talk about climate damages in California, you’re talking about people’s homes burning down. And you’re talking about the ripple effects of electricity prices going up, insurance premiums going up. And all three of those pieces are kind of at the heart of the debate that we’ve seen play out really for more than a year. I mean, like, this issue of electricity affordability was a hotly debated item at the end of last year’s legislative session, continued through the year to where we are now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So he wanted to reduce our electricity bills, then. He wanted to reduce our insurance payments. But were Edison and the state’s other two big utilities lobbying hard for him to do something about this, too?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I mean, look, I think from the lens of electricity affordability, Newsom is looking at the burden, the liability that’s on these utilities, the potential business impact of a bankruptcy following the kind of damaging fires we’ve seen, the fire in Altadena at the beginning of 2025 being the most recent example. But what he’s pushing up against is, if you want to shift the liability away from utilities, where does it end up? And the place that he proposed it ending up was more so in the home insurance base. Well, that industry also has gone through some years of crisis for the same exact reason, the fallout from these wildfires. And so that was not an easy landing spot politically. And I think when you’re talking about the politics of getting something through the Legislature, doing anything that’s seen as overly favorable or generous to utilities is just a really difficult lift.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So, you know, that did not work out for him with regard to trying to shift the cost to insurance companies. And it also is politically hard to be on the side of utilities that start a fire, like the Eaton Fire, as we know the liability was placed on them. But politically, why did it make sense for him?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> It’s a good question. I mean, I think there’s — look, I’ve heard a lot of different explanations for, like, why he’s — why he went after this in literally the last week of his last legislative session, ranging from the most charitable, which is, he took office at the beginning of 2019, right as PG&E was going into bankruptcy. He did not want the next governor — because this issue is not going away — he did not want the next governor to deal with the calamity that he faced while taking office. Okay, that’s probably the most charitable. He’s running for president. Having a future utility bankruptcy would not be a great headline.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But then I also think you have to just keep in mind, like, his term does not end this week. The Legislature is done with their session. He’s governor through the end of the year. And there is ongoing risk of, if we have another fire the likes of the Eaton Fire, the Camp Fire, what does that do for utilities, given that the wildfire fund that has already existed probably gets depleted by the Eaton Fire? There’s a new one that was authorized last year, but, like, what’s the long-term play for that? Is it just we just continue to fund these bailout funds through ratepayers every time there’s a — I mean, it just doesn’t seem sustainable. So you have to think he was also looking at that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, Michael, the strength of the wildfire fund was probably on his mind, certainly on state lawmakers’ minds as well. Can you remind us, you know, what the wildfire fund is and the pressure that’s on it right now in the wake of the fire?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Sure. It’s a little bit like an insurance policy that you buy, you know, before a big calamity. And the policy is funded half out of shareholders’ pockets and half out of our pockets, ratepayer pockets, created in 2019 in the bankruptcy and designed to manage the risks of fire that were made so evident by both the Camp Fire and the Woolsey — Camp in Northern California, Woolsey in Southern California — and the fires in ’17 before that. And it really enabled PG&E to exit bankruptcy and kept Edison healthy through that process.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then we ran the clock forward a few years, and we had a couple of bad fires that were not like Eaton in magnitude, but folks in Northern California may remember the Dixie Fire and the Kincade Fire a little bit before that, and those were bad utility-caused fires as well. But then Eaton basically wiped out the fund. We had a $21 billion claims-paying capacity. That’s kind of the limit, the coverage limit. And there haven’t actually been claims filed yet from Eaton. The settlements are still under negotiation. But I think most people believe that the fund will be exhausted or very nearly exhausted by the single event in January of ’25.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow. And just remind us, when a wildfire is started by a utility company, how and when can they access the money in that fund?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so it’s not right away. The utility company has to settle lawsuits, and those are generally from two kinds of parties. One is victims, and the other is insurance companies that sue on behalf of the people they’ve already paid claims to, and they try to recover the money they paid in claims. That’s called subrogation. And so those two types of claims make up most of the money, but you have to settle in court. And Edison is right now in court with the victims’ attorneys making lots of claims. And I think they’re starting to get further on the subrogation claim settlement process than maybe they are with the plaintiffs’ attorneys. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Okay, so we’re hearing about all these pressures. We’re hearing all the goals, right, that the governor and lawmakers have. What did they finally agree to, Guy?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Well, it was short of what Newsom initially proposed. He wanted to basically bar insurance companies from pursuing these claims against utilities through the subrogation process Michael’s talking about. The ultimate deal that was reached over the weekend was basically to limit — restrict hedge funds from buying those claims from insurance companies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So you can think about an insurance company: They make the payout to victims, they’re looking for ways to stay liquid, a hedge fund might come around and offer them something short of full compensation, but cash up front to take on the claim. And a hedge fund, look, they have a lot of lawyers. They can spend the years it takes in many cases in pursuing this litigation against utilities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Newsom and the Legislature, their deal would say basically insurance companies can’t sell those rights to hedge funds or private equity firms. And then the bill does some other things. It sets up a fast-pay system for wildfire victims to get paid. It has some new reporting requirements around, you know, local efforts to actually prevent the damage from wildfires at a community level, although importantly there’s not any money in the bill to do that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, short of what Newsom wanted to do, but again, given kind of the politics — and we should say, like, the coalition that formed against what Newsom is trying to do. It was not just the insurance companies who said, no, we want to continue to be able to file these lawsuits against utilities. It was also groups representing victims and then attorney groups, which have enormous sway, particularly in the Democratic caucus, who didn’t want kind of limits on what they see as their business. And so you had those, you know, kind of strange bedfellows, but a powerful coalition against Newsom and utilities. And in the end, the deal that was reached, which I’m not convinced Newsom actually likes — I mean, he made some comments last night that were pretty critical of the deal that he struck with legislative leaders — but certainly he was not able to get a lot of what he wanted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the biggest sticking point was the fact that he didn’t want to let insurance companies sue utilities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right. And the point there is, like, the idea that, you know, that would drive up the overall, you know, claims that are made or the settlement amounts. And that the big-picture thing is all of that — the settlement amount, the liability that utility companies hold — that all trickles down to electricity bills.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I guess, like, the best argument that I’ve heard in support of what Newsom is trying to do is, if you look at, you know, placing the burden for these liabilities on electric ratepayers, think about if you’re, you know, you and I, or if you were living in the Central Valley, you have to run your AC all the time. There’s very little that you can do at an individual level to actually change that, right? The liabilities held by the utilities, they’re passing that down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you shift that to the insurance space, well, now there actually is something that individual homeowners can do to decrease their own liability, right? If the system works as it should, you should be able to discount if you are hardening your home, if you replace your roof, if you’re increasing defensible space. So it creates somewhat kind of like a structure of agency there, not saying it makes the politics any easier.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. Why did, Michael, lawmakers push back so hard on that, and did they have a point about what could happen in the insurance space?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Well, I think there’s two issues, right? One is we need to have — we have private electric utilities and private insurance companies in California. They both provide essential services to California. We need available insurance to have mortgages, right, and it’s just, it’s essential to the —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The challenge is we have this growing cost because of the status quo, because of how things were done back in the 20th century. The cost is on electric utilities, but it’s getting so big that the electric utilities can’t handle it. But nobody else wants to handle it either. And the insurers have been in a fragile state, as Guy pointed to. I would say we’re sort of one or two steps into a healthy recovery for insurers in California. Maybe like when you’ve taken one dose of antibiotics, but you’ve got like four more to go? Um, and so the insurers were understandably concerned that this shift of cost would put them back where they were a couple of years ago before they started taking those antibiotic doses. And they pushed back hard.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They don’t want to see this cost on their books. The problem is that we have the situation where, you know, the single mom in Fresno is paying through the nose because it’s 105 degrees outside in the summer. And maybe, maybe, and I’m not saying this is definitely true, but maybe it makes more sense to ask someone who’s already paying through the nose for their insurance because they live in a high-risk place and they have an expensive house to pay more. That’s really the debate. Who’s going to pay more? Is it the electricity customer in a hot place, or is it the homeowner in a high-risk place?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re coming up on a break, but lawmakers are saying that this would raise premiums and cause more insurers to flee the state. Do you see that as—\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> I think it really depends on how it’s implemented. The final compromise would have softened that a lot, but it is gonna raise — like, prices are going up some way or other. Climate change is expensive. It is not free.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the effects of climate change, specifically wildfires, and how California is attempting to manage the many costs that come with them, with Michael Wara and Guy Marzorati, and with you, our listeners. Stay with us. We’ll take your calls and comments after the break. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. State lawmakers are voting today on an agreement with Governor Newsom that changes some of the rules governing wildfires caused by utilities. The deal, reached after months of closed-door negotiations, falls short of Newsom’s biggest goal of limiting liability for utilities, but it does build in some increased protections for ratepayers and creates a state program to get faster payments to wildfire victims. This hour, we dig into the details and the broader question of how to manage the costs of California’s increasingly destructive wildfires. Joining me this hour is Guy Marzorati, correspondent on KQED’s California Politics and Government Desk. Hi, Guy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. State lawmakers are voting today on an agreement with Governor Newsom that changes some of the rules governing wildfires caused by utilities. The deal, reached after months of closed-door negotiations, falls short of Newsom’s biggest goal of limiting liability for utilities, but it does build in some increased protections for ratepayers and creates a state program to get faster payments to wildfire victims. This hour, we dig into the details and the broader question of how to manage the costs of California’s increasingly destructive wildfires. Joining me this hour is Guy Marzorati, correspondent on KQED’s California Politics and Government Desk. Hi, Guy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And also with us is Michael Wara, senior research scholar at Stanford Woods Institute for the Environment. Michael, glad to have you with us, too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Guy, first take me back a bit and tell me when and why Newsom started making this push to limit utility companies’ liability.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so I guess just real bird’s-eye view, like, this is the politics of climate change in California in the 2020s. Like, it is a debate that’s no longer just about what emissions-reduction goals to set. It’s about how to deal with climate damages that are here. And when you talk about climate damages in California, you’re talking about people’s homes burning down. And you’re talking about the ripple effects of electricity prices going up, insurance premiums going up. And all three of those pieces are kind of at the heart of the debate that we’ve seen play out really for more than a year. I mean, like, this issue of electricity affordability was a hotly debated item at the end of last year’s legislative session, continued through the year to where we are now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So he wanted to reduce our electricity bills, then. He wanted to reduce our insurance payments. But were Edison and the state’s other two big utilities lobbying hard for him to do something about this, too?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I mean, look, I think from the lens of electricity affordability, Newsom is looking at the burden, the liability that’s on these utilities, the potential business impact of a bankruptcy following the kind of damaging fires we’ve seen, the fire in Altadena at the beginning of 2025 being the most recent example. But what he’s pushing up against is, if you want to shift the liability away from utilities, where does it end up? And the place that he proposed it ending up was more so in the home insurance base. Well, that industry also has gone through some years of crisis for the same exact reason, the fallout from these wildfires. And so that was not an easy landing spot politically. And I think when you’re talking about the politics of getting something through the Legislature, doing anything that’s seen as overly favorable or generous to utilities is just a really difficult lift.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So, you know, that did not work out for him with regard to trying to shift the cost to insurance companies. And it also is politically hard to be on the side of utilities that start a fire, like the Eaton Fire, as we know the liability was placed on them. But politically, why did it make sense for him?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So, you know, that did not work out for him with regard to trying to shift the cost to insurance companies. And it also is politically hard to be on the side of utilities that start a fire, like the Eaton Fire, as we know the liability was placed on them. But politically, why did it make sense for him?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> It’s a good question. I mean, I think there’s — look, I’ve heard a lot of different explanations for, like, why he’s — why he went after this in literally the last week of his last legislative session, ranging from the most charitable, which is, he took office at the beginning of 2019, right as PG&E was going into bankruptcy. He did not want the next governor — because this issue is not going away — he did not want the next governor to deal with the calamity that he faced while taking office. Okay, that’s probably the most charitable. He’s running for president. Having a future utility bankruptcy would not be a great headline.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> It’s a good question. I mean, I think there’s — look, I’ve heard a lot of different explanations for, like, why he’s — why he went after this in literally the last week of his last legislative session, ranging from the most charitable, which is, he took office at the beginning of 2019, right as PG&E was going into bankruptcy. He did not want the next governor — because this issue is not going away — he did not want the next governor to deal with the calamity that he faced while taking office. Okay, that’s probably the most charitable. He’s running for president. Having a future utility bankruptcy would not be a great headline.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But then I also think you have to just keep in mind, like, his term does not end this week. The Legislature is done with their session. He’s governor through the end of the year. And there is ongoing risk of, if we have another fire the likes of the Eaton Fire, the Camp Fire, what does that do for utilities, given that the wildfire fund that has already existed probably gets depleted by the Eaton Fire? There’s a new one that was authorized last year, but, like, what’s the long-term play for that? Is it just we just continue to fund these bailout funds through ratepayers every time there’s a — I mean, it just doesn’t seem sustainable. So you have to think he was also looking at that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But then I also think you have to just keep in mind, like, his term does not end this week. The Legislature is done with their session. He’s governor through the end of the year. And there is ongoing risk of, if we have another fire the likes of the Eaton Fire, the Camp Fire, what does that do for utilities, given that the wildfire fund that has already existed probably gets depleted by the Eaton Fire? There’s a new one that was authorized last year, but, like, what’s the long-term play for that? Is it just we just continue to fund these bailout funds through ratepayers every time there’s a — I mean, it just doesn’t seem sustainable. So you have to think he was also looking at that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, Michael, the strength of the wildfire fund was probably on his mind, certainly on state lawmakers’ minds as well. Can you remind us, you know, what the wildfire fund is and the pressure that’s on it right now in the wake of the fire?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, Michael, the strength of the wildfire fund was probably on his mind, certainly on state lawmakers’ minds as well. Can you remind us, you know, what the wildfire fund is and the pressure that’s on it right now in the wake of the fire?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Sure. It’s a little bit like an insurance policy that you buy, you know, before a big calamity. And the policy is funded half out of shareholders’ pockets and half out of our pockets, ratepayer pockets, created in 2019 in the bankruptcy and designed to manage the risks of fire that were made so evident by both the Camp Fire and the Woolsey — Camp in Northern California, Woolsey in Southern California — and the fires in ’17 before that. And it really enabled PG&E to exit bankruptcy and kept Edison healthy through that process.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Sure. It’s a little bit like an insurance policy that you buy, you know, before a big calamity. And the policy is funded half out of shareholders’ pockets and half out of our pockets, ratepayer pockets, created in 2019 in the bankruptcy and designed to manage the risks of fire that were made so evident by both the Camp Fire and the Woolsey — Camp in Northern California, Woolsey in Southern California — and the fires in ’17 before that. And it really enabled PG&E to exit bankruptcy and kept Edison healthy through that process.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then we ran the clock forward a few years, and we had a couple of bad fires that were not like Eaton in magnitude, but folks in Northern California may remember the Dixie Fire and the Kincade Fire a little bit before that, and those were bad utility-caused fires as well. But then Eaton basically wiped out the fund. We had a $21 billion claims-paying capacity. That’s kind of the limit, the coverage limit. And there haven’t actually been claims filed yet from Eaton. The settlements are still under negotiation. But I think most people believe that the fund will be exhausted or very nearly exhausted by the single event in January of ’25.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then we ran the clock forward a few years, and we had a couple of bad fires that were not like Eaton in magnitude, but folks in Northern California may remember the Dixie Fire and the Kincade Fire a little bit before that, and those were bad utility-caused fires as well. But then Eaton basically wiped out the fund. We had a $21 billion claims-paying capacity. That’s kind of the limit, the coverage limit. And there haven’t actually been claims filed yet from Eaton. The settlements are still under negotiation. But I think most people believe that the fund will be exhausted or very nearly exhausted by the single event in January of ’25.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow. And just remind us, when a wildfire is started by a utility company, how and when can they access the money in that fund?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow. And just remind us, when a wildfire is started by a utility company, how and when can they access the money in that fund?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so it’s not right away. The utility company has to settle lawsuits, and those are generally from two kinds of parties. One is victims, and the other is insurance companies that sue on behalf of the people they’ve already paid claims to, and they try to recover the money they paid in claims. That’s called subrogation. And so those two types of claims make up most of the money, but you have to settle in court. And Edison is right now in court with the victims’ attorneys making lots of claims. And I think they’re starting to get further on the subrogation claim settlement process than maybe they are with the plaintiffs’ attorneys. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so it’s not right away. The utility company has to settle lawsuits, and those are generally from two kinds of parties. One is victims, and the other is insurance companies that sue on behalf of the people they’ve already paid claims to, and they try to recover the money they paid in claims. That’s called subrogation. And so those two types of claims make up most of the money, but you have to settle in court. And Edison is right now in court with the victims’ attorneys making lots of claims. And I think they’re starting to get further on the subrogation claim settlement process than maybe they are with the plaintiffs’ attorneys. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Okay, so we’re hearing about all these pressures. We’re hearing all the goals, right, that the governor and lawmakers have. What did they finally agree to, Guy?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Okay, so we’re hearing about all these pressures. We’re hearing all the goals, right, that the governor and lawmakers have. What did they finally agree to, Guy?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Well, it was short of what Newsom initially proposed. He wanted to basically bar insurance companies from pursuing these claims against utilities through the subrogation process Michael’s talking about. The ultimate deal that was reached over the weekend was basically to limit — restrict hedge funds from buying those claims from insurance companies.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Well, it was short of what Newsom initially proposed. He wanted to basically bar insurance companies from pursuing these claims against utilities through the subrogation process Michael’s talking about. The ultimate deal that was reached over the weekend was basically to limit — restrict hedge funds from buying those claims from insurance companies.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So you can think about an insurance company: They make the payout to victims, they’re looking for ways to stay liquid, a hedge fund might come around and offer them something short of full compensation, but cash up front to take on the claim. And a hedge fund, look, they have a lot of lawyers. They can spend the years it takes in many cases in pursuing this litigation against utilities.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So you can think about an insurance company: They make the payout to victims, they’re looking for ways to stay liquid, a hedge fund might come around and offer them something short of full compensation, but cash up front to take on the claim. And a hedge fund, look, they have a lot of lawyers. They can spend the years it takes in many cases in pursuing this litigation against utilities.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Newsom and the Legislature, their deal would say basically insurance companies can’t sell those rights to hedge funds or private equity firms. And then the bill does some other things. It sets up a fast-pay system for wildfire victims to get paid. It has some new reporting requirements around, you know, local efforts to actually prevent the damage from wildfires at a community level, although importantly there’s not any money in the bill to do that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Newsom and the Legislature, their deal would say basically insurance companies can’t sell those rights to hedge funds or private equity firms. And then the bill does some other things. It sets up a fast-pay system for wildfire victims to get paid. It has some new reporting requirements around, you know, local efforts to actually prevent the damage from wildfires at a community level, although importantly there’s not any money in the bill to do that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, short of what Newsom wanted to do, but again, given kind of the politics — and we should say, like, the coalition that formed against what Newsom is trying to do. It was not just the insurance companies who said, no, we want to continue to be able to file these lawsuits against utilities. It was also groups representing victims and then attorney groups, which have enormous sway, particularly in the Democratic caucus, who didn’t want kind of limits on what they see as their business. And so you had those, you know, kind of strange bedfellows, but a powerful coalition against Newsom and utilities. And in the end, the deal that was reached, which I’m not convinced Newsom actually likes — I mean, he made some comments last night that were pretty critical of the deal that he struck with legislative leaders — but certainly he was not able to get a lot of what he wanted.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, short of what Newsom wanted to do, but again, given kind of the politics — and we should say, like, the coalition that formed against what Newsom is trying to do. It was not just the insurance companies who said, no, we want to continue to be able to file these lawsuits against utilities. It was also groups representing victims and then attorney groups, which have enormous sway, particularly in the Democratic caucus, who didn’t want kind of limits on what they see as their business. And so you had those, you know, kind of strange bedfellows, but a powerful coalition against Newsom and utilities. And in the end, the deal that was reached, which I’m not convinced Newsom actually likes — I mean, he made some comments last night that were pretty critical of the deal that he struck with legislative leaders — but certainly he was not able to get a lot of what he wanted.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the biggest sticking point was the fact that he didn’t want to let insurance companies sue utilities.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the biggest sticking point was the fact that he didn’t want to let insurance companies sue utilities.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right. And the point there is, like, the idea that, you know, that would drive up the overall, you know, claims that are made or the settlement amounts. And that the big-picture thing is all of that — the settlement amount, the liability that utility companies hold — that all trickles down to electricity bills.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right. And the point there is, like, the idea that, you know, that would drive up the overall, you know, claims that are made or the settlement amounts. And that the big-picture thing is all of that — the settlement amount, the liability that utility companies hold — that all trickles down to electricity bills.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I guess, like, the best argument that I’ve heard in support of what Newsom is trying to do is, if you look at, you know, placing the burden for these liabilities on electric ratepayers, think about if you’re, you know, you and I, or if you were living in the Central Valley, you have to run your AC all the time. There’s very little that you can do at an individual level to actually change that, right? The liabilities held by the utilities, they’re passing that down.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I guess, like, the best argument that I’ve heard in support of what Newsom is trying to do is, if you look at, you know, placing the burden for these liabilities on electric ratepayers, think about if you’re, you know, you and I, or if you were living in the Central Valley, you have to run your AC all the time. There’s very little that you can do at an individual level to actually change that, right? The liabilities held by the utilities, they’re passing that down.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you shift that to the insurance space, well, now there actually is something that individual homeowners can do to decrease their own liability, right? If the system works as it should, you should be able to discount if you are hardening your home, if you replace your roof, if you’re increasing defensible space. So it creates somewhat kind of like a structure of agency there, not saying it makes the politics any easier.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>If you shift that to the insurance space, well, now there actually is something that individual homeowners can do to decrease their own liability, right? If the system works as it should, you should be able to discount if you are hardening your home, if you replace your roof, if you’re increasing defensible space. So it creates somewhat kind of like a structure of agency there, not saying it makes the politics any easier.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. Why did, Michael, lawmakers push back so hard on that, and did they have a point about what could happen in the insurance space?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. Why did, Michael, lawmakers push back so hard on that, and did they have a point about what could happen in the insurance space?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Well, I think there’s two issues, right? One is we need to have — we have private electric utilities and private insurance companies in California. They both provide essential services to California. We need available insurance to have mortgages, right, and it’s just, it’s essential to the —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Well, I think there’s two issues, right? One is we need to have — we have private electric utilities and private insurance companies in California. They both provide essential services to California. We need available insurance to have mortgages, right, and it’s just, it’s essential to the —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The challenge is we have this growing cost because of the status quo, because of how things were done back in the 20th century. The cost is on electric utilities, but it’s getting so big that the electric utilities can’t handle it. But nobody else wants to handle it either. And the insurers have been in a fragile state, as Guy pointed to. I would say we’re sort of one or two steps into a healthy recovery for insurers in California. Maybe like when you’ve taken one dose of antibiotics, but you’ve got like four more to go? Um, and so the insurers were understandably concerned that this shift of cost would put them back where they were a couple of years ago before they started taking those antibiotic doses. And they pushed back hard.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The challenge is we have this growing cost because of the status quo, because of how things were done back in the 20th century. The cost is on electric utilities, but it’s getting so big that the electric utilities can’t handle it. But nobody else wants to handle it either. And the insurers have been in a fragile state, as Guy pointed to. I would say we’re sort of one or two steps into a healthy recovery for insurers in California. Maybe like when you’ve taken one dose of antibiotics, but you’ve got like four more to go? Um, and so the insurers were understandably concerned that this shift of cost would put them back where they were a couple of years ago before they started taking those antibiotic doses. And they pushed back hard.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They don’t want to see this cost on their books. The problem is that we have the situation where, you know, the single mom in Fresno is paying through the nose because it’s 105 degrees outside in the summer. And maybe, maybe, and I’m not saying this is definitely true, but maybe it makes more sense to ask someone who’s already paying through the nose for their insurance because they live in a high-risk place and they have an expensive house to pay more. That’s really the debate. Who’s going to pay more? Is it the electricity customer in a hot place, or is it the homeowner in a high-risk place?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>They don’t want to see this cost on their books. The problem is that we have the situation where, you know, the single mom in Fresno is paying through the nose because it’s 105 degrees outside in the summer. And maybe, maybe, and I’m not saying this is definitely true, but maybe it makes more sense to ask someone who’s already paying through the nose for their insurance because they live in a high-risk place and they have an expensive house to pay more. That’s really the debate. Who’s going to pay more? Is it the electricity customer in a hot place, or is it the homeowner in a high-risk place?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re coming up on a break, but lawmakers are saying that this would raise premiums and cause more insurers to flee the state. Do you see that as—\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re coming up on a break, but lawmakers are saying that this would raise premiums and cause more insurers to flee the state. Do you see that as—\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> I think it really depends on how it’s implemented. The final compromise would have softened that a lot, but it is gonna raise — like, prices are going up some way or other. Climate change is expensive. It is not free.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> I think it really depends on how it’s implemented. The final compromise would have softened that a lot, but it is gonna raise — like, prices are going up some way or other. Climate change is expensive. It is not free.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the effects of climate change, specifically wildfires, and how California is attempting to manage the many costs that come with them, with Michael Wara and Guy Marzorati, and with you, our listeners. Stay with us. We’ll take your calls and comments after the break. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the effects of climate change, specifically wildfires, and how California is attempting to manage the many costs that come with them, with Michael Wara and Guy Marzorati, and with you, our listeners. Stay with us. We’ll take your calls and comments after the break. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Tuesday, September 1, 2026\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wildfire season is underway in California, but the state’s wildfire fund is running low after billions went to victims of last year’s massive Altadena fire, sparked by faulty equipment owned by Southern California Edison. Governor Newsom and the legislature’s debate over fixing the wildfire fund has hinged on the extent utilities, insurance companies and homeowners would pay into it. We’ll dig into the details, and hear your thoughts on who should pay to rebuild after wildfires.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati,\u003c/strong> correspondent, KQED’s California Politics and Government Desk\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara,\u003c/strong> policy director for the Sustainability Accelerator at the Doerr School of Sustainability, director of the Climate and Energy Policy Program, senior research scholar at the Woods Institute for the Environment, Stanford University\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Joy Chen,\u003c/strong> executive director, Every Fire Survivor’s Network\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. State lawmakers are voting today on an agreement with Governor Newsom that changes some of the rules governing wildfires caused by utilities. The deal, reached after months of closed-door negotiations, falls short of Newsom’s biggest goal of limiting liability for utilities, but it does build in some increased protections for ratepayers and creates a state program to get faster payments to wildfire victims. This hour, we dig into the details and the broader question of how to manage the costs of California’s increasingly destructive wildfires. Joining me this hour is Guy Marzorati, correspondent on KQED’s California Politics and Government Desk. Hi, Guy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Hey, good morning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And also with us is Michael Wara, senior research scholar at Stanford Woods Institute for the Environment. Michael, glad to have you with us, too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having me on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Guy, first take me back a bit and tell me when and why Newsom started making this push to limit utility companies’ liability.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so I guess just real bird’s-eye view, like, this is the politics of climate change in California in the 2020s. Like, it is a debate that’s no longer just about what emissions-reduction goals to set. It’s about how to deal with climate damages that are here. And when you talk about climate damages in California, you’re talking about people’s homes burning down. And you’re talking about the ripple effects of electricity prices going up, insurance premiums going up. And all three of those pieces are kind of at the heart of the debate that we’ve seen play out really for more than a year. I mean, like, this issue of electricity affordability was a hotly debated item at the end of last year’s legislative session, continued through the year to where we are now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So he wanted to reduce our electricity bills, then. He wanted to reduce our insurance payments. But were Edison and the state’s other two big utilities lobbying hard for him to do something about this, too?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I mean, look, I think from the lens of electricity affordability, Newsom is looking at the burden, the liability that’s on these utilities, the potential business impact of a bankruptcy following the kind of damaging fires we’ve seen, the fire in Altadena at the beginning of 2025 being the most recent example. But what he’s pushing up against is, if you want to shift the liability away from utilities, where does it end up? And the place that he proposed it ending up was more so in the home insurance base. Well, that industry also has gone through some years of crisis for the same exact reason, the fallout from these wildfires. And so that was not an easy landing spot politically. And I think when you’re talking about the politics of getting something through the Legislature, doing anything that’s seen as overly favorable or generous to utilities is just a really difficult lift.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So, you know, that did not work out for him with regard to trying to shift the cost to insurance companies. And it also is politically hard to be on the side of utilities that start a fire, like the Eaton Fire, as we know the liability was placed on them. But politically, why did it make sense for him?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> It’s a good question. I mean, I think there’s — look, I’ve heard a lot of different explanations for, like, why he’s — why he went after this in literally the last week of his last legislative session, ranging from the most charitable, which is, he took office at the beginning of 2019, right as PG&E was going into bankruptcy. He did not want the next governor — because this issue is not going away — he did not want the next governor to deal with the calamity that he faced while taking office. Okay, that’s probably the most charitable. He’s running for president. Having a future utility bankruptcy would not be a great headline.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But then I also think you have to just keep in mind, like, his term does not end this week. The Legislature is done with their session. He’s governor through the end of the year. And there is ongoing risk of, if we have another fire the likes of the Eaton Fire, the Camp Fire, what does that do for utilities, given that the wildfire fund that has already existed probably gets depleted by the Eaton Fire? There’s a new one that was authorized last year, but, like, what’s the long-term play for that? Is it just we just continue to fund these bailout funds through ratepayers every time there’s a — I mean, it just doesn’t seem sustainable. So you have to think he was also looking at that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, Michael, the strength of the wildfire fund was probably on his mind, certainly on state lawmakers’ minds as well. Can you remind us, you know, what the wildfire fund is and the pressure that’s on it right now in the wake of the fire?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Sure. It’s a little bit like an insurance policy that you buy, you know, before a big calamity. And the policy is funded half out of shareholders’ pockets and half out of our pockets, ratepayer pockets, created in 2019 in the bankruptcy and designed to manage the risks of fire that were made so evident by both the Camp Fire and the Woolsey — Camp in Northern California, Woolsey in Southern California — and the fires in ’17 before that. And it really enabled PG&E to exit bankruptcy and kept Edison healthy through that process.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then we ran the clock forward a few years, and we had a couple of bad fires that were not like Eaton in magnitude, but folks in Northern California may remember the Dixie Fire and the Kincade Fire a little bit before that, and those were bad utility-caused fires as well. But then Eaton basically wiped out the fund. We had a $21 billion claims-paying capacity. That’s kind of the limit, the coverage limit. And there haven’t actually been claims filed yet from Eaton. The settlements are still under negotiation. But I think most people believe that the fund will be exhausted or very nearly exhausted by the single event in January of ’25.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow. And just remind us, when a wildfire is started by a utility company, how and when can they access the money in that fund?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so it’s not right away. The utility company has to settle lawsuits, and those are generally from two kinds of parties. One is victims, and the other is insurance companies that sue on behalf of the people they’ve already paid claims to, and they try to recover the money they paid in claims. That’s called subrogation. And so those two types of claims make up most of the money, but you have to settle in court. And Edison is right now in court with the victims’ attorneys making lots of claims. And I think they’re starting to get further on the subrogation claim settlement process than maybe they are with the plaintiffs’ attorneys. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Okay, so we’re hearing about all these pressures. We’re hearing all the goals, right, that the governor and lawmakers have. What did they finally agree to, Guy?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Well, it was short of what Newsom initially proposed. He wanted to basically bar insurance companies from pursuing these claims against utilities through the subrogation process Michael’s talking about. The ultimate deal that was reached over the weekend was basically to limit — restrict hedge funds from buying those claims from insurance companies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So you can think about an insurance company: They make the payout to victims, they’re looking for ways to stay liquid, a hedge fund might come around and offer them something short of full compensation, but cash up front to take on the claim. And a hedge fund, look, they have a lot of lawyers. They can spend the years it takes in many cases in pursuing this litigation against utilities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Newsom and the Legislature, their deal would say basically insurance companies can’t sell those rights to hedge funds or private equity firms. And then the bill does some other things. It sets up a fast-pay system for wildfire victims to get paid. It has some new reporting requirements around, you know, local efforts to actually prevent the damage from wildfires at a community level, although importantly there’s not any money in the bill to do that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, short of what Newsom wanted to do, but again, given kind of the politics — and we should say, like, the coalition that formed against what Newsom is trying to do. It was not just the insurance companies who said, no, we want to continue to be able to file these lawsuits against utilities. It was also groups representing victims and then attorney groups, which have enormous sway, particularly in the Democratic caucus, who didn’t want kind of limits on what they see as their business. And so you had those, you know, kind of strange bedfellows, but a powerful coalition against Newsom and utilities. And in the end, the deal that was reached, which I’m not convinced Newsom actually likes — I mean, he made some comments last night that were pretty critical of the deal that he struck with legislative leaders — but certainly he was not able to get a lot of what he wanted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the biggest sticking point was the fact that he didn’t want to let insurance companies sue utilities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right. And the point there is, like, the idea that, you know, that would drive up the overall, you know, claims that are made or the settlement amounts. And that the big-picture thing is all of that — the settlement amount, the liability that utility companies hold — that all trickles down to electricity bills.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I guess, like, the best argument that I’ve heard in support of what Newsom is trying to do is, if you look at, you know, placing the burden for these liabilities on electric ratepayers, think about if you’re, you know, you and I, or if you were living in the Central Valley, you have to run your AC all the time. There’s very little that you can do at an individual level to actually change that, right? The liabilities held by the utilities, they’re passing that down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you shift that to the insurance space, well, now there actually is something that individual homeowners can do to decrease their own liability, right? If the system works as it should, you should be able to discount if you are hardening your home, if you replace your roof, if you’re increasing defensible space. So it creates somewhat kind of like a structure of agency there, not saying it makes the politics any easier.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. Why did, Michael, lawmakers push back so hard on that, and did they have a point about what could happen in the insurance space?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Well, I think there’s two issues, right? One is we need to have — we have private electric utilities and private insurance companies in California. They both provide essential services to California. We need available insurance to have mortgages, right, and it’s just, it’s essential to the —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The challenge is we have this growing cost because of the status quo, because of how things were done back in the 20th century. The cost is on electric utilities, but it’s getting so big that the electric utilities can’t handle it. But nobody else wants to handle it either. And the insurers have been in a fragile state, as Guy pointed to. I would say we’re sort of one or two steps into a healthy recovery for insurers in California. Maybe like when you’ve taken one dose of antibiotics, but you’ve got like four more to go? Um, and so the insurers were understandably concerned that this shift of cost would put them back where they were a couple of years ago before they started taking those antibiotic doses. And they pushed back hard.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They don’t want to see this cost on their books. The problem is that we have the situation where, you know, the single mom in Fresno is paying through the nose because it’s 105 degrees outside in the summer. And maybe, maybe, and I’m not saying this is definitely true, but maybe it makes more sense to ask someone who’s already paying through the nose for their insurance because they live in a high-risk place and they have an expensive house to pay more. That’s really the debate. Who’s going to pay more? Is it the electricity customer in a hot place, or is it the homeowner in a high-risk place?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re coming up on a break, but lawmakers are saying that this would raise premiums and cause more insurers to flee the state. Do you see that as—\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> I think it really depends on how it’s implemented. The final compromise would have softened that a lot, but it is gonna raise — like, prices are going up some way or other. Climate change is expensive. It is not free.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the effects of climate change, specifically wildfires, and how California is attempting to manage the many costs that come with them, with Michael Wara and Guy Marzorati, and with you, our listeners. Stay with us. We’ll take your calls and comments after the break. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Thursday, August 27, 2026 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Meta will pay up to $17 billion to settle a lawsuit alleging Facebook and Instagram violated child privacy and consumer protection laws. The case, brought by 47 states and the District of Columbia, could mark a turning point for social media in the United States. “Meta has agreed to make massive transformations that will reduce the risk of harm from its platforms — and will do it within months,” said Attorney General Rob Bonta when announcing the deal, which includes a $2.2 billion payout to California. “We are talking about time limits, stopping notifications during school, a block on the app during critical overnight hours, bans on plastic surgery filters, and so much more.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Racheal Myrow\u003c/strong>, reporter and senior editor, KQED\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Dr. Jason Nagata\u003c/strong>, adolescent medicine specialist, UCSF Benioff Children’s Hospitals\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Peter Ormerod\u003c/strong>, associate professor of law, Villanova Law School\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. In a landmark settlement, Meta will pay up to $17 billion and make changes to its products in a case brought by 47 states, D.C. and U.S. territories, claiming Meta’s addictive social media platforms harmed children. In announcing the deal, State Attorney General Rob Bonta said it includes more than a $2 billion payout to California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rob Bonta:\u003c/strong> This is a major breakthrough, a milestone moment, a watershed moment, because when it comes to protecting our children’s mental health, there is no time to lose. Instead of getting tied up in years of trials and appeals, we have secured the changes we were after.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> For more on the impact the settlement could have on social media companies and on the way kids use Facebook, Instagram and potentially other major platforms, we begin with KQED’s senior editor of our Silicon Valley news desk, Racheal Myrow. Hi, Racheal.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Racheal Myrow:\u003c/strong> Hi, Mina.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So glad to have you on with us. Explain to me why $17.1 billion. What is that for? And what are the major changes that Meta has agreed to make?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Racheal Myrow:\u003c/strong> Well, so it’s going to be a little unclear how the money gets spent, and there are contingencies we’re going to talk about this hour. Part of it, California shares more than a billion dollars — between $1.5 and $2.2 billion. The range depends on whether Meta’s rivals sign on — TikTok, YouTube — because part of the money, $5 billion, that’s roughly a third of that $17 billion figure, is contingent on those rivals signing on. It’s a very curious settlement agreement for that reason.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the money for California is earmarked for youth mental health. And, of course, the legislature and the governor get to decide the specifics. So that fight moves to Sacramento this fall.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, onto some of the specifics, the things that a family with children is going to see as a result of this settlement: Teenagers get a two-hour daily cap across Facebook and Instagram combined. That’s cumulative. So, right, a second Instagram account doesn’t buy more time for the kid who’s, quote-unquote, addicted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The apps go dark midnight to 6 a.m., notifications muted during the school day, like counts hidden. Only a parent can lift any of that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I’ll tell you, Mina, a few of the things I caught only after a good night’s sleep: Direct messages are exempt. So think of all the teens we hear about who are hit up with dubious drug offers or attempts to groom them for sex trafficking.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And again, going back to that idea of the contingency built into this agreement, the two-hour limit is a five-year commitment, not 10. It only extends to 10 if competitors sign off.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Hmm. It’s such an interesting deal. So when you say they’re exempt, you mean they continue to receive direct messages even during these sort of block times when notifications are blocked?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Racheal Myrow:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, then presumably they can see the drug offer after school’s out, you know what I mean? So, talk about —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You know, these changes are being touted as significant. Why did Meta make — what was Meta being accused of by the —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Racheal Myrow:\u003c/strong> So Meta was accused of knowing that it had millions — and I mean millions — of children under the age of 13 on its platforms, which is a violation of federal law.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Meta would say, and did say in court during the one week of trial that we got, “Hey, we’re cutting them off.” But internal research and documents also showed that they were enthusiastic about the interest from underage users because those people, long term, could be another set of eyeballs to sell to advertisers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so the states were basically arguing that, but also violation of state consumer protection laws, you know, designed — basically arguing not that, you know, this is not a free speech case, right? This is not bad people posting bad things on social media platforms and then holding the platforms accountable for that. They’re arguing, no, this is a consumer product liability, personal injury liability situation where you’ve got a faulty design leading to damaging products, and then you’re lying to the American public about that, and also what you’re —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Doing about it. Hmm. And so that’s why the states were alleging violations of consumer protection laws.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’ve been talking about, you know, the contingencies with this, right? Initially, Meta will pay out $12 billion, but the additional five will depend on if Snap, TikTok and YouTube settle with the states as well and agree to similar changes. Did you reach out to these companies to see what they’re thinking?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Racheal Myrow:\u003c/strong> KQED has, and heard nothing back, and you can understand it, right? I’m sure they’ve got the turkey sandwiches out in some kind of a meeting room trying to figure out how they want to respond.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it’s worth saying that all of these companies are facing major lawsuits from state attorneys general, from individuals, from school districts that have finally had it. Finally had it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to bring Peter Ormerod into the conversation now, associate professor of law at Villanova Law School. Peter, thanks so much for being with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Ormerod:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I’d love to get your assessment of this settlement and why you think Meta agreed to settle, what incentives they had.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Ormerod:\u003c/strong> Sure. I think that this is a momentous waypoint in changing the way that young people, youths and teens use social media, the extent to which they do use social media. I don’t think anyone should expect that this is going to be the end of the matter or that this is going to be a cure-all. But it certainly is, I think, an indication of the current trajectory that cases like this — and there are many other cases like this — are currently taking.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, you know, the conclusion to the story hasn’t been written yet. But certainly, this is a very important chapter in that story, and I think it’s, you know, certainly emboldening for a lot of plaintiffs, for a lot of advocacy groups that want to change the way that the platforms work and the effects that they have on children.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In terms of why — why do we think Meta settled? My sense about this, and, you know, is just from following the trial, is that it was not going particularly well for them. And I think — I mean, the settlement agreement itself is 130 pages. It clearly was not something that was, you know, put together pretty quickly. So I think it’s fair to speculate that the parties have been negotiating for some time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But my sense is, from especially the testimony on Tuesday featuring Instagram CEO Adam Mosseri, my sense of it is that that examination was going quite poorly for the company. Mosseri was expected to come back on Wednesday morning. Zuckerberg was expected to testify later. And so I think just the direction that things were going really sort of, you know, it would not surprise me if the calculus of their trial lawyers was, you know, taking a deal now is probably the best thing that can happen just because it was not going well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I’m sorry, the head of Instagram and obviously Zuckerberg of Meta, and they had lost some cases recently, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Ormerod:\u003c/strong> Yes, they have. I mean, the other sort of most important — there was a verdict in California state court in Southern California in March. That’s the KGM case, advancing a very similar theory, but that was a sort of an individual private plaintiff.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then there’s an ongoing proceeding in New Mexico that is brought by the New Mexico attorney general. That is not covered by this settlement. That is a completely separate and parallel proceeding.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in both cases, the company had lost and was facing both significant civil liability in addition to mandated changes to the platform.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Do you think the company was also feeling very sensitive about its reputation? Has this narrative started taking hold that they treat young users badly?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Ormerod:\u003c/strong> You know, I think I am reluctant to say that I think that this is going to be the beginning of a large change from the company. Meta has a reputation as being a particularly sort of vexatious litigator. They often press very aggressive legal theories in forums in which they are not likely to succeed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so the fact that they settled this is quite — quite significant. If anything, it just signals that this case they did not see going their way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I don’t expect their legal strategy on the whole to change. I’m happy to talk a little bit more about the legal arguments that they have available, including the First Amendment, Section 230, which provides them with immunity under federal law. I expect that they are going to continue pressing those legal theories in other cases and in places where, including the KGM litigation, possibly also the New Mexico litigation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I don’t really see them stopping that until they get a definitive signal from the United States Supreme Court that those theories are not going to be successful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, if they were to ultimately prevail on those theories, that would not have an effect on this settlement because they are voluntarily agreeing to make these changes and make this payment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I — I don’t personally, just given having followed the company in its litigation strategy for many years, I don’t personally see that this is going to be some kind of watershed moment in which they change their business and their strategy more generally.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and of course, Section 230, as we know, shields companies from liability for what users post. And that has been one of the ways that they have argued in the past why they should not be held responsible for the effect of their platforms.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so given that, Peter, do you think the other companies will sign on to the settlement the way that Racheal has been describing that it’s been written, right, with these contingencies, that it’ll go up to $17 billion if these other companies sign on and various other product changes will be made?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Ormerod:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and the contingencies are a really interesting wrinkle here. It is quite unusual. It’s not something that I can remember encountering in other contexts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Do I think the other companies will sign on? I think they’re under an enormous amount of pressure to do so. These same parties, the same companies, were parties to the KGM litigation, and both Snap and TikTok settled that before the trial started.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think you already see, to some extent, that maybe they have less appetite for litigation, and so they might be more likely to settle in this circumstance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>YouTube’s attitude is very different, as YouTube maintains that they’re not a social media network at all and that they really don’t belong in these cases. Now, I’m, you know, I think there’s lots of reasons to disagree with that — the sort of short-form video, algorithmically recommended, things of that nature. What the attorneys general argue is sort of the most addictive of the features are shared by YouTube, so you can see why they’re in the case.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Google’s calculus, I think, is probably a little different from the likes of TikTok and Snap. And so, to me, the thing that I’ll be watching is if there is a holdout, that’s who I would back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Listeners, what are your reactions to this settlement between Meta and the states? What questions do you have about how the settlement will work? More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Meta will pay up to $17 billion to settle a lawsuit alleging Facebook and Instagram violated child privacy and consumer protection laws. The case, brought by 47 states and the District of Columbia, could mark a turning point for social media in the United States. “Meta has agreed to make massive transformations that will reduce the risk of harm from its platforms — and will do it within months,” said Attorney General Rob Bonta when announcing the deal, which includes a $2.2 billion payout to California. “We are talking about time limits, stopping notifications during school, a block on the app during critical overnight hours, bans on plastic surgery filters, and so much more.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. In a landmark settlement, Meta will pay up to $17 billion and make changes to its products in a case brought by 47 states, D.C. and U.S. territories, claiming Meta’s addictive social media platforms harmed children. In announcing the deal, State Attorney General Rob Bonta said it includes more than a $2 billion payout to California.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. In a landmark settlement, Meta will pay up to $17 billion and make changes to its products in a case brought by 47 states, D.C. and U.S. territories, claiming Meta’s addictive social media platforms harmed children. In announcing the deal, State Attorney General Rob Bonta said it includes more than a $2 billion payout to California.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rob Bonta:\u003c/strong> This is a major breakthrough, a milestone moment, a watershed moment, because when it comes to protecting our children’s mental health, there is no time to lose. Instead of getting tied up in years of trials and appeals, we have secured the changes we were after.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rob Bonta:\u003c/strong> This is a major breakthrough, a milestone moment, a watershed moment, because when it comes to protecting our children’s mental health, there is no time to lose. Instead of getting tied up in years of trials and appeals, we have secured the changes we were after.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> For more on the impact the settlement could have on social media companies and on the way kids use Facebook, Instagram and potentially other major platforms, we begin with KQED’s senior editor of our Silicon Valley news desk, Racheal Myrow. Hi, Racheal.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> For more on the impact the settlement could have on social media companies and on the way kids use Facebook, Instagram and potentially other major platforms, we begin with KQED’s senior editor of our Silicon Valley news desk, Racheal Myrow. Hi, Racheal.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Racheal Myrow:\u003c/strong> Hi, Mina.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So glad to have you on with us. Explain to me why $17.1 billion. What is that for? And what are the major changes that Meta has agreed to make?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So glad to have you on with us. Explain to me why $17.1 billion. What is that for? And what are the major changes that Meta has agreed to make?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Racheal Myrow:\u003c/strong> Well, so it’s going to be a little unclear how the money gets spent, and there are contingencies we’re going to talk about this hour. Part of it, California shares more than a billion dollars — between $1.5 and $2.2 billion. The range depends on whether Meta’s rivals sign on — TikTok, YouTube — because part of the money, $5 billion, that’s roughly a third of that $17 billion figure, is contingent on those rivals signing on. It’s a very curious settlement agreement for that reason.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Racheal Myrow:\u003c/strong> Well, so it’s going to be a little unclear how the money gets spent, and there are contingencies we’re going to talk about this hour. Part of it, California shares more than a billion dollars — between $1.5 and $2.2 billion. The range depends on whether Meta’s rivals sign on — TikTok, YouTube — because part of the money, $5 billion, that’s roughly a third of that $17 billion figure, is contingent on those rivals signing on. It’s a very curious settlement agreement for that reason.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But the money for California is earmarked for youth mental health. And, of course, the legislature and the governor get to decide the specifics. So that fight moves to Sacramento this fall.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, onto some of the specifics, the things that a family with children is going to see as a result of this settlement: Teenagers get a two-hour daily cap across Facebook and Instagram combined. That’s cumulative. So, right, a second Instagram account doesn’t buy more time for the kid who’s, quote-unquote, addicted.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now, onto some of the specifics, the things that a family with children is going to see as a result of this settlement: Teenagers get a two-hour daily cap across Facebook and Instagram combined. That’s cumulative. So, right, a second Instagram account doesn’t buy more time for the kid who’s, quote-unquote, addicted.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I’ll tell you, Mina, a few of the things I caught only after a good night’s sleep: Direct messages are exempt. So think of all the teens we hear about who are hit up with dubious drug offers or attempts to groom them for sex trafficking.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I’ll tell you, Mina, a few of the things I caught only after a good night’s sleep: Direct messages are exempt. So think of all the teens we hear about who are hit up with dubious drug offers or attempts to groom them for sex trafficking.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And again, going back to that idea of the contingency built into this agreement, the two-hour limit is a five-year commitment, not 10. It only extends to 10 if competitors sign off.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And again, going back to that idea of the contingency built into this agreement, the two-hour limit is a five-year commitment, not 10. It only extends to 10 if competitors sign off.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Hmm. It’s such an interesting deal. So when you say they’re exempt, you mean they continue to receive direct messages even during these sort of block times when notifications are blocked?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Hmm. It’s such an interesting deal. So when you say they’re exempt, you mean they continue to receive direct messages even during these sort of block times when notifications are blocked?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Racheal Myrow:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, then presumably they can see the drug offer after school’s out, you know what I mean? So, talk about —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Racheal Myrow:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, then presumably they can see the drug offer after school’s out, you know what I mean? So, talk about —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You know, these changes are being touted as significant. Why did Meta make — what was Meta being accused of by the —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You know, these changes are being touted as significant. Why did Meta make — what was Meta being accused of by the —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Racheal Myrow:\u003c/strong> So Meta was accused of knowing that it had millions — and I mean millions — of children under the age of 13 on its platforms, which is a violation of federal law.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Racheal Myrow:\u003c/strong> So Meta was accused of knowing that it had millions — and I mean millions — of children under the age of 13 on its platforms, which is a violation of federal law.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Meta would say, and did say in court during the one week of trial that we got, “Hey, we’re cutting them off.” But internal research and documents also showed that they were enthusiastic about the interest from underage users because those people, long term, could be another set of eyeballs to sell to advertisers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Meta would say, and did say in court during the one week of trial that we got, “Hey, we’re cutting them off.” But internal research and documents also showed that they were enthusiastic about the interest from underage users because those people, long term, could be another set of eyeballs to sell to advertisers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so the states were basically arguing that, but also violation of state consumer protection laws, you know, designed — basically arguing not that, you know, this is not a free speech case, right? This is not bad people posting bad things on social media platforms and then holding the platforms accountable for that. They’re arguing, no, this is a consumer product liability, personal injury liability situation where you’ve got a faulty design leading to damaging products, and then you’re lying to the American public about that, and also what you’re —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so the states were basically arguing that, but also violation of state consumer protection laws, you know, designed — basically arguing not that, you know, this is not a free speech case, right? This is not bad people posting bad things on social media platforms and then holding the platforms accountable for that. They’re arguing, no, this is a consumer product liability, personal injury liability situation where you’ve got a faulty design leading to damaging products, and then you’re lying to the American public about that, and also what you’re —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Doing about it. Hmm. And so that’s why the states were alleging violations of consumer protection laws.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Doing about it. Hmm. And so that’s why the states were alleging violations of consumer protection laws.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You’ve been talking about, you know, the contingencies with this, right? Initially, Meta will pay out $12 billion, but the additional five will depend on if Snap, TikTok and YouTube settle with the states as well and agree to similar changes. Did you reach out to these companies to see what they’re thinking?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You’ve been talking about, you know, the contingencies with this, right? Initially, Meta will pay out $12 billion, but the additional five will depend on if Snap, TikTok and YouTube settle with the states as well and agree to similar changes. Did you reach out to these companies to see what they’re thinking?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Racheal Myrow:\u003c/strong> KQED has, and heard nothing back, and you can understand it, right? I’m sure they’ve got the turkey sandwiches out in some kind of a meeting room trying to figure out how they want to respond.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Racheal Myrow:\u003c/strong> KQED has, and heard nothing back, and you can understand it, right? I’m sure they’ve got the turkey sandwiches out in some kind of a meeting room trying to figure out how they want to respond.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it’s worth saying that all of these companies are facing major lawsuits from state attorneys general, from individuals, from school districts that have finally had it. Finally had it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And it’s worth saying that all of these companies are facing major lawsuits from state attorneys general, from individuals, from school districts that have finally had it. Finally had it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to bring Peter Ormerod into the conversation now, associate professor of law at Villanova Law School. Peter, thanks so much for being with us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to bring Peter Ormerod into the conversation now, associate professor of law at Villanova Law School. Peter, thanks so much for being with us.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Ormerod:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Ormerod:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I’d love to get your assessment of this settlement and why you think Meta agreed to settle, what incentives they had.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I’d love to get your assessment of this settlement and why you think Meta agreed to settle, what incentives they had.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Ormerod:\u003c/strong> Sure. I think that this is a momentous waypoint in changing the way that young people, youths and teens use social media, the extent to which they do use social media. I don’t think anyone should expect that this is going to be the end of the matter or that this is going to be a cure-all. But it certainly is, I think, an indication of the current trajectory that cases like this — and there are many other cases like this — are currently taking.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Ormerod:\u003c/strong> Sure. I think that this is a momentous waypoint in changing the way that young people, youths and teens use social media, the extent to which they do use social media. I don’t think anyone should expect that this is going to be the end of the matter or that this is going to be a cure-all. But it certainly is, I think, an indication of the current trajectory that cases like this — and there are many other cases like this — are currently taking.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so, you know, the conclusion to the story hasn’t been written yet. But certainly, this is a very important chapter in that story, and I think it’s, you know, certainly emboldening for a lot of plaintiffs, for a lot of advocacy groups that want to change the way that the platforms work and the effects that they have on children.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so, you know, the conclusion to the story hasn’t been written yet. But certainly, this is a very important chapter in that story, and I think it’s, you know, certainly emboldening for a lot of plaintiffs, for a lot of advocacy groups that want to change the way that the platforms work and the effects that they have on children.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In terms of why — why do we think Meta settled? My sense about this, and, you know, is just from following the trial, is that it was not going particularly well for them. And I think — I mean, the settlement agreement itself is 130 pages. It clearly was not something that was, you know, put together pretty quickly. So I think it’s fair to speculate that the parties have been negotiating for some time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In terms of why — why do we think Meta settled? My sense about this, and, you know, is just from following the trial, is that it was not going particularly well for them. And I think — I mean, the settlement agreement itself is 130 pages. It clearly was not something that was, you know, put together pretty quickly. So I think it’s fair to speculate that the parties have been negotiating for some time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But my sense is, from especially the testimony on Tuesday featuring Instagram CEO Adam Mosseri, my sense of it is that that examination was going quite poorly for the company. Mosseri was expected to come back on Wednesday morning. Zuckerberg was expected to testify later. And so I think just the direction that things were going really sort of, you know, it would not surprise me if the calculus of their trial lawyers was, you know, taking a deal now is probably the best thing that can happen just because it was not going well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But my sense is, from especially the testimony on Tuesday featuring Instagram CEO Adam Mosseri, my sense of it is that that examination was going quite poorly for the company. Mosseri was expected to come back on Wednesday morning. Zuckerberg was expected to testify later. And so I think just the direction that things were going really sort of, you know, it would not surprise me if the calculus of their trial lawyers was, you know, taking a deal now is probably the best thing that can happen just because it was not going well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I’m sorry, the head of Instagram and obviously Zuckerberg of Meta, and they had lost some cases recently, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I’m sorry, the head of Instagram and obviously Zuckerberg of Meta, and they had lost some cases recently, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Ormerod:\u003c/strong> Yes, they have. I mean, the other sort of most important — there was a verdict in California state court in Southern California in March. That’s the KGM case, advancing a very similar theory, but that was a sort of an individual private plaintiff.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Ormerod:\u003c/strong> Yes, they have. I mean, the other sort of most important — there was a verdict in California state court in Southern California in March. That’s the KGM case, advancing a very similar theory, but that was a sort of an individual private plaintiff.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then there’s an ongoing proceeding in New Mexico that is brought by the New Mexico attorney general. That is not covered by this settlement. That is a completely separate and parallel proceeding.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then there’s an ongoing proceeding in New Mexico that is brought by the New Mexico attorney general. That is not covered by this settlement. That is a completely separate and parallel proceeding.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And in both cases, the company had lost and was facing both significant civil liability in addition to mandated changes to the platform.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And in both cases, the company had lost and was facing both significant civil liability in addition to mandated changes to the platform.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Do you think the company was also feeling very sensitive about its reputation? Has this narrative started taking hold that they treat young users badly?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Do you think the company was also feeling very sensitive about its reputation? Has this narrative started taking hold that they treat young users badly?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Ormerod:\u003c/strong> You know, I think I am reluctant to say that I think that this is going to be the beginning of a large change from the company. Meta has a reputation as being a particularly sort of vexatious litigator. They often press very aggressive legal theories in forums in which they are not likely to succeed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Ormerod:\u003c/strong> You know, I think I am reluctant to say that I think that this is going to be the beginning of a large change from the company. Meta has a reputation as being a particularly sort of vexatious litigator. They often press very aggressive legal theories in forums in which they are not likely to succeed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so the fact that they settled this is quite — quite significant. If anything, it just signals that this case they did not see going their way.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so the fact that they settled this is quite — quite significant. If anything, it just signals that this case they did not see going their way.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I don’t expect their legal strategy on the whole to change. I’m happy to talk a little bit more about the legal arguments that they have available, including the First Amendment, Section 230, which provides them with immunity under federal law. I expect that they are going to continue pressing those legal theories in other cases and in places where, including the KGM litigation, possibly also the New Mexico litigation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I don’t expect their legal strategy on the whole to change. I’m happy to talk a little bit more about the legal arguments that they have available, including the First Amendment, Section 230, which provides them with immunity under federal law. I expect that they are going to continue pressing those legal theories in other cases and in places where, including the KGM litigation, possibly also the New Mexico litigation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I don’t really see them stopping that until they get a definitive signal from the United States Supreme Court that those theories are not going to be successful.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I don’t really see them stopping that until they get a definitive signal from the United States Supreme Court that those theories are not going to be successful.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, if they were to ultimately prevail on those theories, that would not have an effect on this settlement because they are voluntarily agreeing to make these changes and make this payment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now, if they were to ultimately prevail on those theories, that would not have an effect on this settlement because they are voluntarily agreeing to make these changes and make this payment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I — I don’t personally, just given having followed the company in its litigation strategy for many years, I don’t personally see that this is going to be some kind of watershed moment in which they change their business and their strategy more generally.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I — I don’t personally, just given having followed the company in its litigation strategy for many years, I don’t personally see that this is going to be some kind of watershed moment in which they change their business and their strategy more generally.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and of course, Section 230, as we know, shields companies from liability for what users post. And that has been one of the ways that they have argued in the past why they should not be held responsible for the effect of their platforms.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and of course, Section 230, as we know, shields companies from liability for what users post. And that has been one of the ways that they have argued in the past why they should not be held responsible for the effect of their platforms.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so given that, Peter, do you think the other companies will sign on to the settlement the way that Racheal has been describing that it’s been written, right, with these contingencies, that it’ll go up to $17 billion if these other companies sign on and various other product changes will be made?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so given that, Peter, do you think the other companies will sign on to the settlement the way that Racheal has been describing that it’s been written, right, with these contingencies, that it’ll go up to $17 billion if these other companies sign on and various other product changes will be made?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Ormerod:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and the contingencies are a really interesting wrinkle here. It is quite unusual. It’s not something that I can remember encountering in other contexts.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Ormerod:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and the contingencies are a really interesting wrinkle here. It is quite unusual. It’s not something that I can remember encountering in other contexts.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Do I think the other companies will sign on? I think they’re under an enormous amount of pressure to do so. These same parties, the same companies, were parties to the KGM litigation, and both Snap and TikTok settled that before the trial started.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Do I think the other companies will sign on? I think they’re under an enormous amount of pressure to do so. These same parties, the same companies, were parties to the KGM litigation, and both Snap and TikTok settled that before the trial started.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I think you already see, to some extent, that maybe they have less appetite for litigation, and so they might be more likely to settle in this circumstance.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I think you already see, to some extent, that maybe they have less appetite for litigation, and so they might be more likely to settle in this circumstance.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>YouTube’s attitude is very different, as YouTube maintains that they’re not a social media network at all and that they really don’t belong in these cases. Now, I’m, you know, I think there’s lots of reasons to disagree with that — the sort of short-form video, algorithmically recommended, things of that nature. What the attorneys general argue is sort of the most addictive of the features are shared by YouTube, so you can see why they’re in the case.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>YouTube’s attitude is very different, as YouTube maintains that they’re not a social media network at all and that they really don’t belong in these cases. Now, I’m, you know, I think there’s lots of reasons to disagree with that — the sort of short-form video, algorithmically recommended, things of that nature. What the attorneys general argue is sort of the most addictive of the features are shared by YouTube, so you can see why they’re in the case.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But Google’s calculus, I think, is probably a little different from the likes of TikTok and Snap. And so, to me, the thing that I’ll be watching is if there is a holdout, that’s who I would back.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But Google’s calculus, I think, is probably a little different from the likes of TikTok and Snap. And so, to me, the thing that I’ll be watching is if there is a holdout, that’s who I would back.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Listeners, what are your reactions to this settlement between Meta and the states? What questions do you have about how the settlement will work? More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Listeners, what are your reactions to this settlement between Meta and the states? What questions do you have about how the settlement will work? More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Thursday, August 27, 2026 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Meta will pay up to $17 billion to settle a lawsuit alleging Facebook and Instagram violated child privacy and consumer protection laws. The case, brought by 47 states and the District of Columbia, could mark a turning point for social media in the United States. “Meta has agreed to make massive transformations that will reduce the risk of harm from its platforms — and will do it within months,” said Attorney General Rob Bonta when announcing the deal, which includes a $2.2 billion payout to California. “We are talking about time limits, stopping notifications during school, a block on the app during critical overnight hours, bans on plastic surgery filters, and so much more.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Racheal Myrow\u003c/strong>, reporter and senior editor, KQED\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Dr. Jason Nagata\u003c/strong>, adolescent medicine specialist, UCSF Benioff Children’s Hospitals\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Peter Ormerod\u003c/strong>, associate professor of law, Villanova Law School\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. In a landmark settlement, Meta will pay up to $17 billion and make changes to its products in a case brought by 47 states, D.C. and U.S. territories, claiming Meta’s addictive social media platforms harmed children. In announcing the deal, State Attorney General Rob Bonta said it includes more than a $2 billion payout to California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rob Bonta:\u003c/strong> This is a major breakthrough, a milestone moment, a watershed moment, because when it comes to protecting our children’s mental health, there is no time to lose. Instead of getting tied up in years of trials and appeals, we have secured the changes we were after.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> For more on the impact the settlement could have on social media companies and on the way kids use Facebook, Instagram and potentially other major platforms, we begin with KQED’s senior editor of our Silicon Valley news desk, Racheal Myrow. Hi, Racheal.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Racheal Myrow:\u003c/strong> Hi, Mina.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So glad to have you on with us. Explain to me why $17.1 billion. What is that for? And what are the major changes that Meta has agreed to make?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Racheal Myrow:\u003c/strong> Well, so it’s going to be a little unclear how the money gets spent, and there are contingencies we’re going to talk about this hour. Part of it, California shares more than a billion dollars — between $1.5 and $2.2 billion. The range depends on whether Meta’s rivals sign on — TikTok, YouTube — because part of the money, $5 billion, that’s roughly a third of that $17 billion figure, is contingent on those rivals signing on. It’s a very curious settlement agreement for that reason.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the money for California is earmarked for youth mental health. And, of course, the legislature and the governor get to decide the specifics. So that fight moves to Sacramento this fall.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, onto some of the specifics, the things that a family with children is going to see as a result of this settlement: Teenagers get a two-hour daily cap across Facebook and Instagram combined. That’s cumulative. So, right, a second Instagram account doesn’t buy more time for the kid who’s, quote-unquote, addicted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The apps go dark midnight to 6 a.m., notifications muted during the school day, like counts hidden. Only a parent can lift any of that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I’ll tell you, Mina, a few of the things I caught only after a good night’s sleep: Direct messages are exempt. So think of all the teens we hear about who are hit up with dubious drug offers or attempts to groom them for sex trafficking.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And again, going back to that idea of the contingency built into this agreement, the two-hour limit is a five-year commitment, not 10. It only extends to 10 if competitors sign off.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Hmm. It’s such an interesting deal. So when you say they’re exempt, you mean they continue to receive direct messages even during these sort of block times when notifications are blocked?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Racheal Myrow:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, then presumably they can see the drug offer after school’s out, you know what I mean? So, talk about —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You know, these changes are being touted as significant. Why did Meta make — what was Meta being accused of by the —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Racheal Myrow:\u003c/strong> So Meta was accused of knowing that it had millions — and I mean millions — of children under the age of 13 on its platforms, which is a violation of federal law.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Meta would say, and did say in court during the one week of trial that we got, “Hey, we’re cutting them off.” But internal research and documents also showed that they were enthusiastic about the interest from underage users because those people, long term, could be another set of eyeballs to sell to advertisers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so the states were basically arguing that, but also violation of state consumer protection laws, you know, designed — basically arguing not that, you know, this is not a free speech case, right? This is not bad people posting bad things on social media platforms and then holding the platforms accountable for that. They’re arguing, no, this is a consumer product liability, personal injury liability situation where you’ve got a faulty design leading to damaging products, and then you’re lying to the American public about that, and also what you’re —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Doing about it. Hmm. And so that’s why the states were alleging violations of consumer protection laws.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’ve been talking about, you know, the contingencies with this, right? Initially, Meta will pay out $12 billion, but the additional five will depend on if Snap, TikTok and YouTube settle with the states as well and agree to similar changes. Did you reach out to these companies to see what they’re thinking?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Racheal Myrow:\u003c/strong> KQED has, and heard nothing back, and you can understand it, right? I’m sure they’ve got the turkey sandwiches out in some kind of a meeting room trying to figure out how they want to respond.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it’s worth saying that all of these companies are facing major lawsuits from state attorneys general, from individuals, from school districts that have finally had it. Finally had it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to bring Peter Ormerod into the conversation now, associate professor of law at Villanova Law School. Peter, thanks so much for being with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Ormerod:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I’d love to get your assessment of this settlement and why you think Meta agreed to settle, what incentives they had.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Ormerod:\u003c/strong> Sure. I think that this is a momentous waypoint in changing the way that young people, youths and teens use social media, the extent to which they do use social media. I don’t think anyone should expect that this is going to be the end of the matter or that this is going to be a cure-all. But it certainly is, I think, an indication of the current trajectory that cases like this — and there are many other cases like this — are currently taking.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, you know, the conclusion to the story hasn’t been written yet. But certainly, this is a very important chapter in that story, and I think it’s, you know, certainly emboldening for a lot of plaintiffs, for a lot of advocacy groups that want to change the way that the platforms work and the effects that they have on children.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In terms of why — why do we think Meta settled? My sense about this, and, you know, is just from following the trial, is that it was not going particularly well for them. And I think — I mean, the settlement agreement itself is 130 pages. It clearly was not something that was, you know, put together pretty quickly. So I think it’s fair to speculate that the parties have been negotiating for some time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But my sense is, from especially the testimony on Tuesday featuring Instagram CEO Adam Mosseri, my sense of it is that that examination was going quite poorly for the company. Mosseri was expected to come back on Wednesday morning. Zuckerberg was expected to testify later. And so I think just the direction that things were going really sort of, you know, it would not surprise me if the calculus of their trial lawyers was, you know, taking a deal now is probably the best thing that can happen just because it was not going well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I’m sorry, the head of Instagram and obviously Zuckerberg of Meta, and they had lost some cases recently, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Ormerod:\u003c/strong> Yes, they have. I mean, the other sort of most important — there was a verdict in California state court in Southern California in March. That’s the KGM case, advancing a very similar theory, but that was a sort of an individual private plaintiff.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then there’s an ongoing proceeding in New Mexico that is brought by the New Mexico attorney general. That is not covered by this settlement. That is a completely separate and parallel proceeding.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in both cases, the company had lost and was facing both significant civil liability in addition to mandated changes to the platform.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Do you think the company was also feeling very sensitive about its reputation? Has this narrative started taking hold that they treat young users badly?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Ormerod:\u003c/strong> You know, I think I am reluctant to say that I think that this is going to be the beginning of a large change from the company. Meta has a reputation as being a particularly sort of vexatious litigator. They often press very aggressive legal theories in forums in which they are not likely to succeed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so the fact that they settled this is quite — quite significant. If anything, it just signals that this case they did not see going their way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I don’t expect their legal strategy on the whole to change. I’m happy to talk a little bit more about the legal arguments that they have available, including the First Amendment, Section 230, which provides them with immunity under federal law. I expect that they are going to continue pressing those legal theories in other cases and in places where, including the KGM litigation, possibly also the New Mexico litigation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I don’t really see them stopping that until they get a definitive signal from the United States Supreme Court that those theories are not going to be successful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, if they were to ultimately prevail on those theories, that would not have an effect on this settlement because they are voluntarily agreeing to make these changes and make this payment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I — I don’t personally, just given having followed the company in its litigation strategy for many years, I don’t personally see that this is going to be some kind of watershed moment in which they change their business and their strategy more generally.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and of course, Section 230, as we know, shields companies from liability for what users post. And that has been one of the ways that they have argued in the past why they should not be held responsible for the effect of their platforms.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so given that, Peter, do you think the other companies will sign on to the settlement the way that Racheal has been describing that it’s been written, right, with these contingencies, that it’ll go up to $17 billion if these other companies sign on and various other product changes will be made?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Ormerod:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and the contingencies are a really interesting wrinkle here. It is quite unusual. It’s not something that I can remember encountering in other contexts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Do I think the other companies will sign on? I think they’re under an enormous amount of pressure to do so. These same parties, the same companies, were parties to the KGM litigation, and both Snap and TikTok settled that before the trial started.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think you already see, to some extent, that maybe they have less appetite for litigation, and so they might be more likely to settle in this circumstance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>YouTube’s attitude is very different, as YouTube maintains that they’re not a social media network at all and that they really don’t belong in these cases. Now, I’m, you know, I think there’s lots of reasons to disagree with that — the sort of short-form video, algorithmically recommended, things of that nature. What the attorneys general argue is sort of the most addictive of the features are shared by YouTube, so you can see why they’re in the case.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Google’s calculus, I think, is probably a little different from the likes of TikTok and Snap. And so, to me, the thing that I’ll be watching is if there is a holdout, that’s who I would back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Listeners, what are your reactions to this settlement between Meta and the states? What questions do you have about how the settlement will work? More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Monday, August 24, 2026 at 9 am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>California’s only remaining active nuclear power plant, Diablo Canyon on California’s Central Coast, was supposed to shutter in 2025, but a series of heat waves and stress on the grid prompted state leaders to keep it running through 2030. And now, as demand for electricity skyrockets, a new push is growing to reverse the state’s decision to abandon nuclear power, and to extend the plant’s life through 2045. We’ll talk to advocates who have been fighting the nuclear plant since the very beginning about the risks of continuing operations, and from those who believe nuclear power is necessary to meet California’s mandate to switch to 100% carbon-free energy by 2045.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara,\u003c/strong> policy director for the Sustainability Accelerator at the Doerr School of Sustainability and director of the Climate and Energy Policy Program and senior research scholar at the Woods Institute for the Environment, Stanford University\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans,\u003c/strong> climate reporter, KQED\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Adrian Covert,\u003c/strong> senior vice president of public policy, Bay Area Council\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jane Swanson, \u003c/strong>president and spokesperson, San Luis Obispo Mothers for Peace\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Alexis Madrigal. California has had a remarkable turn toward renewable energy for the last couple of decades. Wind and solar now power a big chunk of our electrical grid. We’ve gone away from gas and imported coal-fired electricity. Nuclear has never been a huge part of our energy mix, but we do have one plant still sending electrons into the grid, Diablo Canyon.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That power station, located near San Luis Obispo, is a massive facility that alone generates something like 9% of the state’s electricity and more than 15% of the state’s carbon-free kilowatt-hours. But this is an old facility. It’s in a fault zone. There are risks with nuclear power that simply don’t exist for solar and wind. Maybe this particular type of power plant belongs to an old regime that’s being outmoded by new renewables and batteries.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So that’s the setup. Here to talk with us about Diablo Canyon, we’re joined first by Laura Klivans, climate reporter for KQED. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And we’ve got Michael Wara, senior research scholar at the Stanford Woods Institute for the Environment. Welcome, Michael.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Good morning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So, Laura, just tell us, give us the quick sort of narrative of what has happened with Diablo Canyon, you know, over the last 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay, so 2016, PG&E, labor unions and environmentalists came to this agreement saying, “We’re going to close Diablo Canyon.” There are a bunch of reasons for that. You’ve mentioned some of them. It’s near fault lines. That’s scary to people. Anti-nuclear sentiments were up after Fukushima in 2011. They also use ocean water for cooling, which harms submarine life. And so that’s something. And the licenses were already going to expire in 2024 and 2025 anyway.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Also, energy demand, interestingly, at the time, was flat. So it was kind of like, not in the place now where it’s just — pre-AI data center land.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yeah, yeah, and electrifying everything as much as we are now. So we were also building out a ton of renewables. So it’s like, okay, let’s close it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then 2020, we’re all in this hellscape of COVID and heat, and the climate effects are really being felt in this state. And so there was a ton of stress on the grid, and we had some rolling blackouts. In California, that’s a politically really charged issue. We have had recalls for governors if they have been through blackouts. People want the grid to work. They want us to work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So Newsom legislation acted in 2022. They extended the life of Diablo Canyon and said it’s not going to be decommissioned anymore. Also, we did not build out the renewables at the pace we were hoping to, even though we have had a huge growth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, so — and then we also started to see this demand for more power with our electrification of buildings and cars, and now with data centers, too. So now we are on track to be open to 2030 for Diablo Canyon, but people — there’s a growing movement for that to extend longer, to 2045.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Um, Michael, I wanted to just ask you: What is involved, you know, if we think we’re going to shut down a plant and then we decide to keep it going? Did it have to get retrofitted? Were there things that had to be done and paid for there?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the plant had been in this kind of “we’re going to close” mode, and that involved, as Laura mentioned, workforce issues, getting people ready to be retired or moved to other parts of the company. And that’s really significant because, actually, to run nuclear power plants in the United States, the team that runs it has to be trained on that power plant. So you can’t just move around like you can for other jobs, which is probably good from a safety perspective.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Also, there were components of the plant that had reached the end of their lives. And it was sort of like with an old car: If you know you’re going to get rid of it, maybe you don’t replace the transmission. But this power plant in particular needed new high-pressure turbines, which are very expensive components in the power plant that have, since the decision to run it for another decade, been replaced at a cost of tens of millions of dollars. And who paid for that? PG&E customers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Michael, how would you contextualize the 9% of the electricity grid that Diablo Canyon provides? Is that a lot? Is it a special kind of 9%? How should people be thinking about this in the scheme of things?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Well, it is special in the sense that Diablo provides power — especially, this is special, especially for California — Diablo provides power when it’s dark. And that is an especially valuable kind of power for California because our renewables transition is so dependent on solar.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> And increasingly, especially even relative to 2020 when this decision was made, dependent on solar plus batteries that last for about four hours. And so, as you get into the middle of the night, the alternatives shrink. They really involve imports, some hydroelectric power, Diablo Canyon, and then a lot of natural gas-fired power plants.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so getting rid of Diablo right now would be a choice to burn more natural gas.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And do we even have the capacity to do that, or would we be importing from Nevada, I suppose, or something?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Well, our gas plants could run a bit more. I think the way that our system works, we’d be looking for the most cost-effective sources of energy and also capacity, and Diablo can be one of those. It’s not always — you know, when there’s a lot of solar on the grid, all kinds of other resources start to be uncompetitive with, you know, the sun.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But at night, and especially also with the advent of much more available battery storage, right? Even during the day, you can buy Diablo Canyon power, store it and serve it to customers at night. And that’s much more feasible today than it was five years ago.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Laura, what is KQED — what does KQED — what’s PG&E saying about what they’d like to do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Yeah, they would like to extend it to 2045. So what they have is they have permission to do that from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. And so they applied for their license, and they applied for the maximum license, which is 20 years, and so they got it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so now what is hanging in the balance here is legislation. So we need state legislation to make it possible for them to keep going.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And do you see, like, who are the sort of forces here that are aligned, you know, for and against, Laura?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, it’s really — I think you can speak to this, too, Michael — but it’s really changed over time. But there’s a lot of people who are for nuclear power at this point. I think as climate change — we’re really seeing the effects of that and feeling it. People are seeing, hey, this is a carbon-free power source.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So we’ve got PG&E and we’ve — but, um, we’ve got — we also have, like, a bunch of business folks who are lining up behind this. They’ve created a coalition. I think we’re going to hear from somebody on the show about this later, like the Bay Area Council. They would like to see it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On the flip side, people against it are — we’ve had these staunch groups. For example, there’s one group that’s been around since the sixties or seventies, who we’ll also hear from, I believe, in this hour: Mothers for Peace.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Mothers for Peace, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Who also say, you know, the risk is still there. Diablo Canyon and other nuclear power plants still produce waste that we do not have a solution for. And then you have other entities. There’s, like, the Coastal Commission that is concerned about the impact on marine life because of the cooling system that the plant uses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Um, I want to get into some of the trade-offs here that might exist for Diablo Canyon. Like, were we to try and make up for this with solar capacity — like, Michael, like, how much would it be? I mean, we’re talking probably seven gigawatts of, like, so what does that look like in terms of sort of —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Look like in terms of sort of industrial scale? So I just want to make one additional point about kind of the situation that’s changed since 2020. At the time when we made the decision to extend the life until 2030, we also were assuming that we would be building significant amounts of offshore wind.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And because of the Trump administration’s decisions about wind, because of their role that the federal government plays in permitting offshore wind, and especially offshore wind in federal waters, which this would be, I think it’s not realistic to think that we’re going to have that additional generation in place when we thought we would. And so that increases the value of Diablo Canyon.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It is true, Alexis, that in order to replace it with a mix of solar and batteries, you would need to build a multiple of the nameplate capacity. That’s the amount of energy it can produce in any given second or moment. In solar, and even then it’d be hard to replace. You’d also have to build a lot of battery storage because the value of Diablo Canyon is firm capacity. Like, it’s always available. It’s gonna be — well, except when it’s shut down for refueling — but it’s a kind of power plant that you can sort of depend on no matter what the weather looks like, no matter the season.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Solar obviously is less productive during the winter. Winter is going to become a source — a time when there’s more energy demand than at present, as we electrify cars and buildings. And so that is an increasing challenge for us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So there’s a lot of characteristics of a nuclear power plant that make it especially valuable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Well, and some folks have talked about this kind of baseload power eventually being provided by something like enhanced geothermal, which might have those same properties. But are we, like, ready to roll out, you know, a two-gigawatt enhanced geothermal plant right now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Not yet. And I’m really excited to see the future for enhanced geothermal. There are contracts that have been signed, especially by Southern California Edison, to provide a lot of enhanced geothermal. We’re going to see that technology proved out or not in the next few years, at which point we’ll be able to make a much more intelligent decision about whether to kind of put our chips on enhanced geothermal as an alternative to nuclear, a zero-carbon firm energy source, or whether it’s too expensive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I would just emphasize one thing that’s changed about the conversation with nuclear: There are many people that are supportive of nuclear that were not in the past, if it is affordable. And the key question is cost, and cost relative to alternatives that are also firm and also zero-carbon.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so Diablo might be a great deal for the state of California to get some — approximately 10% of its power and capacity from zero-carbon energy sources — but not if it costs an arm and a leg. And that’s an important part of the conversation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Well, at least my understanding — and Laura, maybe you can correct me if I’m wrong in this one — basically, older nuclear power plants, their power ends up being quite cheap because the cost has already sort of been paid for the construction and all the loans. And so what ends up coming out of the plant is really inexpensive relative to building a new nuclear power plant.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, we’ve paid back. We were about to decommission it. So we’ve — we pretty much paid off this loan to build this huge thing, which is a very impressive facility when you go and see it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, and so you’re seeing estimates from both the CPUC and then folks at Stanford, MIT, where Diablo Canyon can save us tons of money, billions of dollars by some estimates, over a period of like 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the criticism that comes up from a bunch of researchers as well is that the deal that was struck in 2022 was a bad one financially for ratepayers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the future of California’s last functioning nuclear power plant. We are joined by Laura Klivans, climate reporter for KQED, of course, and Michael Wara, senior research scholar at Stanford Woods Institute for the Environment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Of course, we’re gonna take your calls, too. What do you think? 866-733-6786, forum@kqed.org. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Alexis Madrigal. California has had a remarkable turn toward renewable energy for the last couple of decades. Wind and solar now power a big chunk of our electrical grid. We’ve gone away from gas and imported coal-fired electricity. Nuclear has never been a huge part of our energy mix, but we do have one plant still sending electrons into the grid, Diablo Canyon.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Alexis Madrigal. California has had a remarkable turn toward renewable energy for the last couple of decades. Wind and solar now power a big chunk of our electrical grid. We’ve gone away from gas and imported coal-fired electricity. Nuclear has never been a huge part of our energy mix, but we do have one plant still sending electrons into the grid, Diablo Canyon.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That power station, located near San Luis Obispo, is a massive facility that alone generates something like 9% of the state’s electricity and more than 15% of the state’s carbon-free kilowatt-hours. But this is an old facility. It’s in a fault zone. There are risks with nuclear power that simply don’t exist for solar and wind. Maybe this particular type of power plant belongs to an old regime that’s being outmoded by new renewables and batteries.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That power station, located near San Luis Obispo, is a massive facility that alone generates something like 9% of the state’s electricity and more than 15% of the state’s carbon-free kilowatt-hours. But this is an old facility. It’s in a fault zone. There are risks with nuclear power that simply don’t exist for solar and wind. Maybe this particular type of power plant belongs to an old regime that’s being outmoded by new renewables and batteries.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So that’s the setup. Here to talk with us about Diablo Canyon, we’re joined first by Laura Klivans, climate reporter for KQED. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So that’s the setup. Here to talk with us about Diablo Canyon, we’re joined first by Laura Klivans, climate reporter for KQED. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And we’ve got Michael Wara, senior research scholar at the Stanford Woods Institute for the Environment. Welcome, Michael.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And we’ve got Michael Wara, senior research scholar at the Stanford Woods Institute for the Environment. Welcome, Michael.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Good morning.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So, Laura, just tell us, give us the quick sort of narrative of what has happened with Diablo Canyon, you know, over the last 10 years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So, Laura, just tell us, give us the quick sort of narrative of what has happened with Diablo Canyon, you know, over the last 10 years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay, so 2016, PG&E, labor unions and environmentalists came to this agreement saying, “We’re going to close Diablo Canyon.” There are a bunch of reasons for that. You’ve mentioned some of them. It’s near fault lines. That’s scary to people. Anti-nuclear sentiments were up after Fukushima in 2011. They also use ocean water for cooling, which harms submarine life. And so that’s something. And the licenses were already going to expire in 2024 and 2025 anyway.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay, so 2016, PG&E, labor unions and environmentalists came to this agreement saying, “We’re going to close Diablo Canyon.” There are a bunch of reasons for that. You’ve mentioned some of them. It’s near fault lines. That’s scary to people. Anti-nuclear sentiments were up after Fukushima in 2011. They also use ocean water for cooling, which harms submarine life. And so that’s something. And the licenses were already going to expire in 2024 and 2025 anyway.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Also, energy demand, interestingly, at the time, was flat. So it was kind of like, not in the place now where it’s just — pre-AI data center land.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Also, energy demand, interestingly, at the time, was flat. So it was kind of like, not in the place now where it’s just — pre-AI data center land.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Yeah, yeah, and electrifying everything as much as we are now. So we were also building out a ton of renewables. So it’s like, okay, let’s close it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Yeah, yeah, and electrifying everything as much as we are now. So we were also building out a ton of renewables. So it’s like, okay, let’s close it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Then 2020, we’re all in this hellscape of COVID and heat, and the climate effects are really being felt in this state. And so there was a ton of stress on the grid, and we had some rolling blackouts. In California, that’s a politically really charged issue. We have had recalls for governors if they have been through blackouts. People want the grid to work. They want us to work.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Then 2020, we’re all in this hellscape of COVID and heat, and the climate effects are really being felt in this state. And so there was a ton of stress on the grid, and we had some rolling blackouts. In California, that’s a politically really charged issue. We have had recalls for governors if they have been through blackouts. People want the grid to work. They want us to work.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So Newsom legislation acted in 2022. They extended the life of Diablo Canyon and said it’s not going to be decommissioned anymore. Also, we did not build out the renewables at the pace we were hoping to, even though we have had a huge growth.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So Newsom legislation acted in 2022. They extended the life of Diablo Canyon and said it’s not going to be decommissioned anymore. Also, we did not build out the renewables at the pace we were hoping to, even though we have had a huge growth.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Um, so — and then we also started to see this demand for more power with our electrification of buildings and cars, and now with data centers, too. So now we are on track to be open to 2030 for Diablo Canyon, but people — there’s a growing movement for that to extend longer, to 2045.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Um, so — and then we also started to see this demand for more power with our electrification of buildings and cars, and now with data centers, too. So now we are on track to be open to 2030 for Diablo Canyon, but people — there’s a growing movement for that to extend longer, to 2045.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Um, Michael, I wanted to just ask you: What is involved, you know, if we think we’re going to shut down a plant and then we decide to keep it going? Did it have to get retrofitted? Were there things that had to be done and paid for there?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Um, Michael, I wanted to just ask you: What is involved, you know, if we think we’re going to shut down a plant and then we decide to keep it going? Did it have to get retrofitted? Were there things that had to be done and paid for there?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the plant had been in this kind of “we’re going to close” mode, and that involved, as Laura mentioned, workforce issues, getting people ready to be retired or moved to other parts of the company. And that’s really significant because, actually, to run nuclear power plants in the United States, the team that runs it has to be trained on that power plant. So you can’t just move around like you can for other jobs, which is probably good from a safety perspective.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the plant had been in this kind of “we’re going to close” mode, and that involved, as Laura mentioned, workforce issues, getting people ready to be retired or moved to other parts of the company. And that’s really significant because, actually, to run nuclear power plants in the United States, the team that runs it has to be trained on that power plant. So you can’t just move around like you can for other jobs, which is probably good from a safety perspective.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Also, there were components of the plant that had reached the end of their lives. And it was sort of like with an old car: If you know you’re going to get rid of it, maybe you don’t replace the transmission. But this power plant in particular needed new high-pressure turbines, which are very expensive components in the power plant that have, since the decision to run it for another decade, been replaced at a cost of tens of millions of dollars. And who paid for that? PG&E customers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Also, there were components of the plant that had reached the end of their lives. And it was sort of like with an old car: If you know you’re going to get rid of it, maybe you don’t replace the transmission. But this power plant in particular needed new high-pressure turbines, which are very expensive components in the power plant that have, since the decision to run it for another decade, been replaced at a cost of tens of millions of dollars. And who paid for that? PG&E customers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Michael, how would you contextualize the 9% of the electricity grid that Diablo Canyon provides? Is that a lot? Is it a special kind of 9%? How should people be thinking about this in the scheme of things?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Michael, how would you contextualize the 9% of the electricity grid that Diablo Canyon provides? Is that a lot? Is it a special kind of 9%? How should people be thinking about this in the scheme of things?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Well, it is special in the sense that Diablo provides power — especially, this is special, especially for California — Diablo provides power when it’s dark. And that is an especially valuable kind of power for California because our renewables transition is so dependent on solar.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Well, it is special in the sense that Diablo provides power — especially, this is special, especially for California — Diablo provides power when it’s dark. And that is an especially valuable kind of power for California because our renewables transition is so dependent on solar.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> And increasingly, especially even relative to 2020 when this decision was made, dependent on solar plus batteries that last for about four hours. And so, as you get into the middle of the night, the alternatives shrink. They really involve imports, some hydroelectric power, Diablo Canyon, and then a lot of natural gas-fired power plants.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> And increasingly, especially even relative to 2020 when this decision was made, dependent on solar plus batteries that last for about four hours. And so, as you get into the middle of the night, the alternatives shrink. They really involve imports, some hydroelectric power, Diablo Canyon, and then a lot of natural gas-fired power plants.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so getting rid of Diablo right now would be a choice to burn more natural gas.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so getting rid of Diablo right now would be a choice to burn more natural gas.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And do we even have the capacity to do that, or would we be importing from Nevada, I suppose, or something?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And do we even have the capacity to do that, or would we be importing from Nevada, I suppose, or something?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Well, our gas plants could run a bit more. I think the way that our system works, we’d be looking for the most cost-effective sources of energy and also capacity, and Diablo can be one of those. It’s not always — you know, when there’s a lot of solar on the grid, all kinds of other resources start to be uncompetitive with, you know, the sun.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Well, our gas plants could run a bit more. I think the way that our system works, we’d be looking for the most cost-effective sources of energy and also capacity, and Diablo can be one of those. It’s not always — you know, when there’s a lot of solar on the grid, all kinds of other resources start to be uncompetitive with, you know, the sun.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But at night, and especially also with the advent of much more available battery storage, right? Even during the day, you can buy Diablo Canyon power, store it and serve it to customers at night. And that’s much more feasible today than it was five years ago.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But at night, and especially also with the advent of much more available battery storage, right? Even during the day, you can buy Diablo Canyon power, store it and serve it to customers at night. And that’s much more feasible today than it was five years ago.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Laura, what is KQED — what does KQED — what’s PG&E saying about what they’d like to do?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Laura, what is KQED — what does KQED — what’s PG&E saying about what they’d like to do?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Yeah, they would like to extend it to 2045. So what they have is they have permission to do that from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. And so they applied for their license, and they applied for the maximum license, which is 20 years, and so they got it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Yeah, they would like to extend it to 2045. So what they have is they have permission to do that from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. And so they applied for their license, and they applied for the maximum license, which is 20 years, and so they got it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so now what is hanging in the balance here is legislation. So we need state legislation to make it possible for them to keep going.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so now what is hanging in the balance here is legislation. So we need state legislation to make it possible for them to keep going.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And do you see, like, who are the sort of forces here that are aligned, you know, for and against, Laura?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And do you see, like, who are the sort of forces here that are aligned, you know, for and against, Laura?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, it’s really — I think you can speak to this, too, Michael — but it’s really changed over time. But there’s a lot of people who are for nuclear power at this point. I think as climate change — we’re really seeing the effects of that and feeling it. People are seeing, hey, this is a carbon-free power source.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, it’s really — I think you can speak to this, too, Michael — but it’s really changed over time. But there’s a lot of people who are for nuclear power at this point. I think as climate change — we’re really seeing the effects of that and feeling it. People are seeing, hey, this is a carbon-free power source.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So we’ve got PG&E and we’ve — but, um, we’ve got — we also have, like, a bunch of business folks who are lining up behind this. They’ve created a coalition. I think we’re going to hear from somebody on the show about this later, like the Bay Area Council. They would like to see it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So we’ve got PG&E and we’ve — but, um, we’ve got — we also have, like, a bunch of business folks who are lining up behind this. They’ve created a coalition. I think we’re going to hear from somebody on the show about this later, like the Bay Area Council. They would like to see it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>On the flip side, people against it are — we’ve had these staunch groups. For example, there’s one group that’s been around since the sixties or seventies, who we’ll also hear from, I believe, in this hour: Mothers for Peace.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>On the flip side, people against it are — we’ve had these staunch groups. For example, there’s one group that’s been around since the sixties or seventies, who we’ll also hear from, I believe, in this hour: Mothers for Peace.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Mothers for Peace, yeah.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Mothers for Peace, yeah.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Who also say, you know, the risk is still there. Diablo Canyon and other nuclear power plants still produce waste that we do not have a solution for. And then you have other entities. There’s, like, the Coastal Commission that is concerned about the impact on marine life because of the cooling system that the plant uses.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Who also say, you know, the risk is still there. Diablo Canyon and other nuclear power plants still produce waste that we do not have a solution for. And then you have other entities. There’s, like, the Coastal Commission that is concerned about the impact on marine life because of the cooling system that the plant uses.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Um, I want to get into some of the trade-offs here that might exist for Diablo Canyon. Like, were we to try and make up for this with solar capacity — like, Michael, like, how much would it be? I mean, we’re talking probably seven gigawatts of, like, so what does that look like in terms of sort of —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Um, I want to get into some of the trade-offs here that might exist for Diablo Canyon. Like, were we to try and make up for this with solar capacity — like, Michael, like, how much would it be? I mean, we’re talking probably seven gigawatts of, like, so what does that look like in terms of sort of —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Look like in terms of sort of industrial scale? So I just want to make one additional point about kind of the situation that’s changed since 2020. At the time when we made the decision to extend the life until 2030, we also were assuming that we would be building significant amounts of offshore wind.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Look like in terms of sort of industrial scale? So I just want to make one additional point about kind of the situation that’s changed since 2020. At the time when we made the decision to extend the life until 2030, we also were assuming that we would be building significant amounts of offshore wind.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And because of the Trump administration’s decisions about wind, because of their role that the federal government plays in permitting offshore wind, and especially offshore wind in federal waters, which this would be, I think it’s not realistic to think that we’re going to have that additional generation in place when we thought we would. And so that increases the value of Diablo Canyon.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And because of the Trump administration’s decisions about wind, because of their role that the federal government plays in permitting offshore wind, and especially offshore wind in federal waters, which this would be, I think it’s not realistic to think that we’re going to have that additional generation in place when we thought we would. And so that increases the value of Diablo Canyon.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It is true, Alexis, that in order to replace it with a mix of solar and batteries, you would need to build a multiple of the nameplate capacity. That’s the amount of energy it can produce in any given second or moment. In solar, and even then it’d be hard to replace. You’d also have to build a lot of battery storage because the value of Diablo Canyon is firm capacity. Like, it’s always available. It’s gonna be — well, except when it’s shut down for refueling — but it’s a kind of power plant that you can sort of depend on no matter what the weather looks like, no matter the season.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It is true, Alexis, that in order to replace it with a mix of solar and batteries, you would need to build a multiple of the nameplate capacity. That’s the amount of energy it can produce in any given second or moment. In solar, and even then it’d be hard to replace. You’d also have to build a lot of battery storage because the value of Diablo Canyon is firm capacity. Like, it’s always available. It’s gonna be — well, except when it’s shut down for refueling — but it’s a kind of power plant that you can sort of depend on no matter what the weather looks like, no matter the season.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Solar obviously is less productive during the winter. Winter is going to become a source — a time when there’s more energy demand than at present, as we electrify cars and buildings. And so that is an increasing challenge for us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Solar obviously is less productive during the winter. Winter is going to become a source — a time when there’s more energy demand than at present, as we electrify cars and buildings. And so that is an increasing challenge for us.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So there’s a lot of characteristics of a nuclear power plant that make it especially valuable.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Well, and some folks have talked about this kind of baseload power eventually being provided by something like enhanced geothermal, which might have those same properties. But are we, like, ready to roll out, you know, a two-gigawatt enhanced geothermal plant right now?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Well, and some folks have talked about this kind of baseload power eventually being provided by something like enhanced geothermal, which might have those same properties. But are we, like, ready to roll out, you know, a two-gigawatt enhanced geothermal plant right now?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Not yet. And I’m really excited to see the future for enhanced geothermal. There are contracts that have been signed, especially by Southern California Edison, to provide a lot of enhanced geothermal. We’re going to see that technology proved out or not in the next few years, at which point we’ll be able to make a much more intelligent decision about whether to kind of put our chips on enhanced geothermal as an alternative to nuclear, a zero-carbon firm energy source, or whether it’s too expensive.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Not yet. And I’m really excited to see the future for enhanced geothermal. There are contracts that have been signed, especially by Southern California Edison, to provide a lot of enhanced geothermal. We’re going to see that technology proved out or not in the next few years, at which point we’ll be able to make a much more intelligent decision about whether to kind of put our chips on enhanced geothermal as an alternative to nuclear, a zero-carbon firm energy source, or whether it’s too expensive.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I would just emphasize one thing that’s changed about the conversation with nuclear: There are many people that are supportive of nuclear that were not in the past, if it is affordable. And the key question is cost, and cost relative to alternatives that are also firm and also zero-carbon.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I would just emphasize one thing that’s changed about the conversation with nuclear: There are many people that are supportive of nuclear that were not in the past, if it is affordable. And the key question is cost, and cost relative to alternatives that are also firm and also zero-carbon.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so Diablo might be a great deal for the state of California to get some — approximately 10% of its power and capacity from zero-carbon energy sources — but not if it costs an arm and a leg. And that’s an important part of the conversation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so Diablo might be a great deal for the state of California to get some — approximately 10% of its power and capacity from zero-carbon energy sources — but not if it costs an arm and a leg. And that’s an important part of the conversation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Well, at least my understanding — and Laura, maybe you can correct me if I’m wrong in this one — basically, older nuclear power plants, their power ends up being quite cheap because the cost has already sort of been paid for the construction and all the loans. And so what ends up coming out of the plant is really inexpensive relative to building a new nuclear power plant.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Well, at least my understanding — and Laura, maybe you can correct me if I’m wrong in this one — basically, older nuclear power plants, their power ends up being quite cheap because the cost has already sort of been paid for the construction and all the loans. And so what ends up coming out of the plant is really inexpensive relative to building a new nuclear power plant.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, we’ve paid back. We were about to decommission it. So we’ve — we pretty much paid off this loan to build this huge thing, which is a very impressive facility when you go and see it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Um, and so you’re seeing estimates from both the CPUC and then folks at Stanford, MIT, where Diablo Canyon can save us tons of money, billions of dollars by some estimates, over a period of like 10 years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Um, and so you’re seeing estimates from both the CPUC and then folks at Stanford, MIT, where Diablo Canyon can save us tons of money, billions of dollars by some estimates, over a period of like 10 years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But the criticism that comes up from a bunch of researchers as well is that the deal that was struck in 2022 was a bad one financially for ratepayers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the future of California’s last functioning nuclear power plant. We are joined by Laura Klivans, climate reporter for KQED, of course, and Michael Wara, senior research scholar at Stanford Woods Institute for the Environment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Of course, we’re gonna take your calls, too. What do you think? 866-733-6786, forum@kqed.org. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Monday, August 24, 2026 at 9 am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>California’s only remaining active nuclear power plant, Diablo Canyon on California’s Central Coast, was supposed to shutter in 2025, but a series of heat waves and stress on the grid prompted state leaders to keep it running through 2030. And now, as demand for electricity skyrockets, a new push is growing to reverse the state’s decision to abandon nuclear power, and to extend the plant’s life through 2045. We’ll talk to advocates who have been fighting the nuclear plant since the very beginning about the risks of continuing operations, and from those who believe nuclear power is necessary to meet California’s mandate to switch to 100% carbon-free energy by 2045.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara,\u003c/strong> policy director for the Sustainability Accelerator at the Doerr School of Sustainability and director of the Climate and Energy Policy Program and senior research scholar at the Woods Institute for the Environment, Stanford University\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans,\u003c/strong> climate reporter, KQED\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Adrian Covert,\u003c/strong> senior vice president of public policy, Bay Area Council\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jane Swanson, \u003c/strong>president and spokesperson, San Luis Obispo Mothers for Peace\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Alexis Madrigal. California has had a remarkable turn toward renewable energy for the last couple of decades. Wind and solar now power a big chunk of our electrical grid. We’ve gone away from gas and imported coal-fired electricity. Nuclear has never been a huge part of our energy mix, but we do have one plant still sending electrons into the grid, Diablo Canyon.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That power station, located near San Luis Obispo, is a massive facility that alone generates something like 9% of the state’s electricity and more than 15% of the state’s carbon-free kilowatt-hours. But this is an old facility. It’s in a fault zone. There are risks with nuclear power that simply don’t exist for solar and wind. Maybe this particular type of power plant belongs to an old regime that’s being outmoded by new renewables and batteries.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So that’s the setup. Here to talk with us about Diablo Canyon, we’re joined first by Laura Klivans, climate reporter for KQED. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And we’ve got Michael Wara, senior research scholar at the Stanford Woods Institute for the Environment. Welcome, Michael.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Good morning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So, Laura, just tell us, give us the quick sort of narrative of what has happened with Diablo Canyon, you know, over the last 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Okay, so 2016, PG&E, labor unions and environmentalists came to this agreement saying, “We’re going to close Diablo Canyon.” There are a bunch of reasons for that. You’ve mentioned some of them. It’s near fault lines. That’s scary to people. Anti-nuclear sentiments were up after Fukushima in 2011. They also use ocean water for cooling, which harms submarine life. And so that’s something. And the licenses were already going to expire in 2024 and 2025 anyway.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Also, energy demand, interestingly, at the time, was flat. So it was kind of like, not in the place now where it’s just — pre-AI data center land.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yeah, yeah, and electrifying everything as much as we are now. So we were also building out a ton of renewables. So it’s like, okay, let’s close it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then 2020, we’re all in this hellscape of COVID and heat, and the climate effects are really being felt in this state. And so there was a ton of stress on the grid, and we had some rolling blackouts. In California, that’s a politically really charged issue. We have had recalls for governors if they have been through blackouts. People want the grid to work. They want us to work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So Newsom legislation acted in 2022. They extended the life of Diablo Canyon and said it’s not going to be decommissioned anymore. Also, we did not build out the renewables at the pace we were hoping to, even though we have had a huge growth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, so — and then we also started to see this demand for more power with our electrification of buildings and cars, and now with data centers, too. So now we are on track to be open to 2030 for Diablo Canyon, but people — there’s a growing movement for that to extend longer, to 2045.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Um, Michael, I wanted to just ask you: What is involved, you know, if we think we’re going to shut down a plant and then we decide to keep it going? Did it have to get retrofitted? Were there things that had to be done and paid for there?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the plant had been in this kind of “we’re going to close” mode, and that involved, as Laura mentioned, workforce issues, getting people ready to be retired or moved to other parts of the company. And that’s really significant because, actually, to run nuclear power plants in the United States, the team that runs it has to be trained on that power plant. So you can’t just move around like you can for other jobs, which is probably good from a safety perspective.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Also, there were components of the plant that had reached the end of their lives. And it was sort of like with an old car: If you know you’re going to get rid of it, maybe you don’t replace the transmission. But this power plant in particular needed new high-pressure turbines, which are very expensive components in the power plant that have, since the decision to run it for another decade, been replaced at a cost of tens of millions of dollars. And who paid for that? PG&E customers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Michael, how would you contextualize the 9% of the electricity grid that Diablo Canyon provides? Is that a lot? Is it a special kind of 9%? How should people be thinking about this in the scheme of things?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Well, it is special in the sense that Diablo provides power — especially, this is special, especially for California — Diablo provides power when it’s dark. And that is an especially valuable kind of power for California because our renewables transition is so dependent on solar.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> And increasingly, especially even relative to 2020 when this decision was made, dependent on solar plus batteries that last for about four hours. And so, as you get into the middle of the night, the alternatives shrink. They really involve imports, some hydroelectric power, Diablo Canyon, and then a lot of natural gas-fired power plants.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so getting rid of Diablo right now would be a choice to burn more natural gas.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And do we even have the capacity to do that, or would we be importing from Nevada, I suppose, or something?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Well, our gas plants could run a bit more. I think the way that our system works, we’d be looking for the most cost-effective sources of energy and also capacity, and Diablo can be one of those. It’s not always — you know, when there’s a lot of solar on the grid, all kinds of other resources start to be uncompetitive with, you know, the sun.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But at night, and especially also with the advent of much more available battery storage, right? Even during the day, you can buy Diablo Canyon power, store it and serve it to customers at night. And that’s much more feasible today than it was five years ago.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Laura, what is KQED — what does KQED — what’s PG&E saying about what they’d like to do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Yeah, they would like to extend it to 2045. So what they have is they have permission to do that from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. And so they applied for their license, and they applied for the maximum license, which is 20 years, and so they got it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so now what is hanging in the balance here is legislation. So we need state legislation to make it possible for them to keep going.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And do you see, like, who are the sort of forces here that are aligned, you know, for and against, Laura?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, it’s really — I think you can speak to this, too, Michael — but it’s really changed over time. But there’s a lot of people who are for nuclear power at this point. I think as climate change — we’re really seeing the effects of that and feeling it. People are seeing, hey, this is a carbon-free power source.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So we’ve got PG&E and we’ve — but, um, we’ve got — we also have, like, a bunch of business folks who are lining up behind this. They’ve created a coalition. I think we’re going to hear from somebody on the show about this later, like the Bay Area Council. They would like to see it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On the flip side, people against it are — we’ve had these staunch groups. For example, there’s one group that’s been around since the sixties or seventies, who we’ll also hear from, I believe, in this hour: Mothers for Peace.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Mothers for Peace, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Who also say, you know, the risk is still there. Diablo Canyon and other nuclear power plants still produce waste that we do not have a solution for. And then you have other entities. There’s, like, the Coastal Commission that is concerned about the impact on marine life because of the cooling system that the plant uses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Um, I want to get into some of the trade-offs here that might exist for Diablo Canyon. Like, were we to try and make up for this with solar capacity — like, Michael, like, how much would it be? I mean, we’re talking probably seven gigawatts of, like, so what does that look like in terms of sort of —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Look like in terms of sort of industrial scale? So I just want to make one additional point about kind of the situation that’s changed since 2020. At the time when we made the decision to extend the life until 2030, we also were assuming that we would be building significant amounts of offshore wind.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And because of the Trump administration’s decisions about wind, because of their role that the federal government plays in permitting offshore wind, and especially offshore wind in federal waters, which this would be, I think it’s not realistic to think that we’re going to have that additional generation in place when we thought we would. And so that increases the value of Diablo Canyon.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It is true, Alexis, that in order to replace it with a mix of solar and batteries, you would need to build a multiple of the nameplate capacity. That’s the amount of energy it can produce in any given second or moment. In solar, and even then it’d be hard to replace. You’d also have to build a lot of battery storage because the value of Diablo Canyon is firm capacity. Like, it’s always available. It’s gonna be — well, except when it’s shut down for refueling — but it’s a kind of power plant that you can sort of depend on no matter what the weather looks like, no matter the season.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Solar obviously is less productive during the winter. Winter is going to become a source — a time when there’s more energy demand than at present, as we electrify cars and buildings. And so that is an increasing challenge for us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So there’s a lot of characteristics of a nuclear power plant that make it especially valuable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Well, and some folks have talked about this kind of baseload power eventually being provided by something like enhanced geothermal, which might have those same properties. But are we, like, ready to roll out, you know, a two-gigawatt enhanced geothermal plant right now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Michael Wara:\u003c/strong> Not yet. And I’m really excited to see the future for enhanced geothermal. There are contracts that have been signed, especially by Southern California Edison, to provide a lot of enhanced geothermal. We’re going to see that technology proved out or not in the next few years, at which point we’ll be able to make a much more intelligent decision about whether to kind of put our chips on enhanced geothermal as an alternative to nuclear, a zero-carbon firm energy source, or whether it’s too expensive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I would just emphasize one thing that’s changed about the conversation with nuclear: There are many people that are supportive of nuclear that were not in the past, if it is affordable. And the key question is cost, and cost relative to alternatives that are also firm and also zero-carbon.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so Diablo might be a great deal for the state of California to get some — approximately 10% of its power and capacity from zero-carbon energy sources — but not if it costs an arm and a leg. And that’s an important part of the conversation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Well, at least my understanding — and Laura, maybe you can correct me if I’m wrong in this one — basically, older nuclear power plants, their power ends up being quite cheap because the cost has already sort of been paid for the construction and all the loans. And so what ends up coming out of the plant is really inexpensive relative to building a new nuclear power plant.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, we’ve paid back. We were about to decommission it. So we’ve — we pretty much paid off this loan to build this huge thing, which is a very impressive facility when you go and see it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, and so you’re seeing estimates from both the CPUC and then folks at Stanford, MIT, where Diablo Canyon can save us tons of money, billions of dollars by some estimates, over a period of like 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the criticism that comes up from a bunch of researchers as well is that the deal that was struck in 2022 was a bad one financially for ratepayers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the future of California’s last functioning nuclear power plant. We are joined by Laura Klivans, climate reporter for KQED, of course, and Michael Wara, senior research scholar at Stanford Woods Institute for the Environment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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"soldout": {
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"title": "SOLD OUT: Rethinking Housing in America",
"tagline": "A new future for housing",
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"tagline": "True-life supernatural stories",
"info": "",
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