Influencers Are Peddling Peptides, but Is Tanmaxxing Worth the Risk?
Have You Navigated a ‘Quiet Divorce?’
What ‘Never Trumper’ Sarah Longwell Learned From Voters
The Long Reach of the “Marinaissance”
Player sponsored by
window.__IS_SSR__=true
window.__INITIAL_STATE__={
"attachmentsReducer": {
"audio_0": {
"type": "attachments",
"id": "audio_0",
"imgSizes": {
"kqedFullSize": {
"file": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/themes/KQED-unified/img/audio_bgs/background0.jpg"
}
}
},
"audio_1": {
"type": "attachments",
"id": "audio_1",
"imgSizes": {
"kqedFullSize": {
"file": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/themes/KQED-unified/img/audio_bgs/background1.jpg"
}
}
},
"audio_2": {
"type": "attachments",
"id": "audio_2",
"imgSizes": {
"kqedFullSize": {
"file": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/themes/KQED-unified/img/audio_bgs/background2.jpg"
}
}
},
"audio_3": {
"type": "attachments",
"id": "audio_3",
"imgSizes": {
"kqedFullSize": {
"file": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/themes/KQED-unified/img/audio_bgs/background3.jpg"
}
}
},
"audio_4": {
"type": "attachments",
"id": "audio_4",
"imgSizes": {
"kqedFullSize": {
"file": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/themes/KQED-unified/img/audio_bgs/background4.jpg"
}
}
},
"placeholder": {
"type": "attachments",
"id": "placeholder",
"imgSizes": {
"thumbnail": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1-160x107.jpg",
"width": 160,
"height": 107,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"medium": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1-800x533.jpg",
"width": 800,
"height": 533,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"medium_large": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1-768x512.jpg",
"width": 768,
"height": 512,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"large": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1-1020x680.jpg",
"width": 1020,
"height": 680,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"1536x1536": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1-1536x1024.jpg",
"width": 1536,
"height": 1024,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"fd-lrg": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1-1536x1024.jpg",
"width": 1536,
"height": 1024,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"fd-med": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1-1020x680.jpg",
"width": 1020,
"height": 680,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"fd-sm": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1-800x533.jpg",
"width": 800,
"height": 533,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"post-thumbnail": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1-672x372.jpg",
"width": 672,
"height": 372,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"twentyfourteen-full-width": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1-1038x576.jpg",
"width": 1038,
"height": 576,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"xxsmall": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1-160x107.jpg",
"width": 160,
"height": 107,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"xsmall": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1-672x372.jpg",
"width": 672,
"height": 372,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"small": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1-672x372.jpg",
"width": 672,
"height": 372,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"xlarge": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1-1020x680.jpg",
"width": 1020,
"height": 680,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"full-width": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1-1920x1280.jpg",
"width": 1920,
"height": 1280,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"guest-author-32": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-1333x1333-1-160x160.jpg",
"width": 32,
"height": 32,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"guest-author-50": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-1333x1333-1-160x160.jpg",
"width": 50,
"height": 50,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"guest-author-64": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-1333x1333-1-160x160.jpg",
"width": 64,
"height": 64,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"guest-author-96": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-1333x1333-1-160x160.jpg",
"width": 96,
"height": 96,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"guest-author-128": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-1333x1333-1-160x160.jpg",
"width": 128,
"height": 128,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"detail": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-1333x1333-1-160x160.jpg",
"width": 160,
"height": 160,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"kqedFullSize": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1.jpg",
"width": 2000,
"height": 1333
}
}
},
"news_12103261": {
"type": "attachments",
"id": "news_12103261",
"meta": {
"index": "attachments_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "12103261",
"found": true
},
"title": "CAT_Influencer Peptides.img",
"publishDate": 1791331058,
"status": "inherit",
"parent": 12103258,
"modified": 1791331105,
"caption": "Influencers are promoting Melanotan II, a peptide that promises weight loss, libido enhancement, and a tan, without disclosing potential side effects that include skin cancer.",
"credit": "Images courtesy of Mariya Borisova, Getty Images; Composite by Morgan Sung",
"altTag": "Five glowing peptide vials, each clear and with silver caps, fanned out — from left to right, the colors span from purple to pink to orange to green. They are in front of a background that is the inside of a tanning bed, which feature horizontal strips of neon blue light. The vials are reflecting several small strips of blue light. The text \"Close All Tabs\" appears in white text in the upper right corner.",
"description": null,
"imgSizes": {
"thumbnail": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/CAT_Influencer-Peptides.img_-160x90.png",
"width": 160,
"height": 90,
"mimeType": "image/png"
},
"1536x1536": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/CAT_Influencer-Peptides.img_-1536x864.png",
"width": 1536,
"height": 864,
"mimeType": "image/png"
},
"post-thumbnail": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/CAT_Influencer-Peptides.img_-672x372.png",
"width": 672,
"height": 372,
"mimeType": "image/png"
},
"twentyfourteen-full-width": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/CAT_Influencer-Peptides.img_-1038x576.png",
"width": 1038,
"height": 576,
"mimeType": "image/png"
},
"npr-cds-wide": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/CAT_Influencer-Peptides.img_-1200x675.png",
"width": 1200,
"height": 675,
"mimeType": "image/png"
},
"npr-cds-square": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/CAT_Influencer-Peptides.img_-600x600.png",
"width": 600,
"height": 600,
"mimeType": "image/png"
},
"kqedFullSize": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/10/CAT_Influencer-Peptides.img_.png",
"width": 1920,
"height": 1080
}
},
"isLoading": false,
"fetchFailed": false
},
"forum_2010101915285": {
"type": "attachments",
"id": "forum_2010101915285",
"meta": {
"index": "attachments_1716263798",
"site": "forum",
"id": "2010101915285",
"found": true
},
"title": "GettyImages-2280538072",
"publishDate": 1789425335,
"status": "inherit",
"parent": 2010101915284,
"modified": 1789425396,
"caption": "PRODUCTION - 11 June 2026: A woman slips a wedding ring off her ring finger. (staged scene)",
"credit": "Bernd Weißbrod/picture alliance via Getty Images",
"altTag": null,
"description": null,
"imgSizes": {
"medium": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2026/09/GettyImages-2280538072-2000x1318.jpg",
"width": 2000,
"height": 1318,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"large": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2026/09/GettyImages-2280538072-2000x1318.jpg",
"width": 2000,
"height": 1318,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"thumbnail": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2026/09/GettyImages-2280538072-160x105.jpg",
"width": 160,
"height": 105,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"medium_large": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2026/09/GettyImages-2280538072-768x506.jpg",
"width": 768,
"height": 506,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"1536x1536": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2026/09/GettyImages-2280538072-1536x1012.jpg",
"width": 1536,
"height": 1012,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"2048x2048": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2026/09/GettyImages-2280538072-2048x1349.jpg",
"width": 2048,
"height": 1349,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"post-thumbnail": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2026/09/GettyImages-2280538072-672x372.jpg",
"width": 672,
"height": 372,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"twentyfourteen-full-width": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2026/09/GettyImages-2280538072-1038x576.jpg",
"width": 1038,
"height": 576,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"full-width": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2026/09/GettyImages-2280538072-2000x1318.jpg",
"width": 2000,
"height": 1318,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"kqedFullSize": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2026/09/GettyImages-2280538072-scaled.jpg",
"width": 2560,
"height": 1687
}
},
"isLoading": false,
"fetchFailed": false
},
"forum_2010101915199": {
"type": "attachments",
"id": "forum_2010101915199",
"meta": {
"index": "attachments_1716263798",
"site": "forum",
"id": "2010101915199",
"found": true
},
"title": "Sarah Longwell Headshot",
"publishDate": 1788903455,
"status": "inherit",
"parent": 2010101915195,
"modified": 1788903568,
"caption": "Sarah Longwell.",
"credit": "Courtesy/Pete Kiehart",
"altTag": null,
"description": null,
"imgSizes": {
"thumbnail": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2026/09/Untitled-design-6-160x107.jpg",
"width": 160,
"height": 107,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"medium_large": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2026/09/Untitled-design-6-768x512.jpg",
"width": 768,
"height": 512,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"1536x1536": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2026/09/Untitled-design-6-1536x1024.jpg",
"width": 1536,
"height": 1024,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"post-thumbnail": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2026/09/Untitled-design-6-672x372.jpg",
"width": 672,
"height": 372,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"twentyfourteen-full-width": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2026/09/Untitled-design-6-1038x576.jpg",
"width": 1038,
"height": 576,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"kqedFullSize": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2026/09/Untitled-design-6.jpg",
"width": 2000,
"height": 1333
}
},
"isLoading": false,
"fetchFailed": false
},
"forum_2010101915060": {
"type": "attachments",
"id": "forum_2010101915060",
"meta": {
"index": "attachments_1716263798",
"site": "forum",
"id": "2010101915060",
"found": true
},
"title": "Annalee Newitz (7)",
"publishDate": 1787865077,
"status": "inherit",
"parent": 2010101915059,
"modified": 1787865095,
"caption": null,
"credit": "Jordan Blackman",
"altTag": null,
"description": null,
"imgSizes": {
"thumbnail": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2026/08/Annalee-Newitz-7-160x107.jpg",
"width": 160,
"height": 107,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"medium_large": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2026/08/Annalee-Newitz-7-768x512.jpg",
"width": 768,
"height": 512,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"1536x1536": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2026/08/Annalee-Newitz-7-1536x1024.jpg",
"width": 1536,
"height": 1024,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"post-thumbnail": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2026/08/Annalee-Newitz-7-672x372.jpg",
"width": 672,
"height": 372,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"twentyfourteen-full-width": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2026/08/Annalee-Newitz-7-1038x576.jpg",
"width": 1038,
"height": 576,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"kqedFullSize": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2026/08/Annalee-Newitz-7.jpg",
"width": 2000,
"height": 1333
}
},
"isLoading": false,
"fetchFailed": false
}
},
"audioPlayerReducer": {
"postId": "stream_live",
"isPaused": true,
"isPlaying": false,
"pfsActive": false,
"pledgeModalIsOpen": true,
"playerDrawerIsOpen": false,
"liveAudioPlayStartedAt": 0,
"liveAudioPlayContext": ""
},
"authorsReducer": {
"cmihalovich": {
"type": "authors",
"id": "12028",
"meta": {
"index": "authors_1716337520",
"id": "12028",
"found": true
},
"name": "Cayla Mihalovich",
"firstName": "Cayla",
"lastName": "Mihalovich",
"slug": "cmihalovich",
"email": "cmihalovich@kqed.org",
"display_author_email": false,
"staff_mastheads": [],
"title": "KQED Contributor",
"bio": null,
"avatar": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/bad03b12d733ae0f9c16837380d1a0bd9a2d5d820a497f9ae4066c7a19dcbe68?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twitter": null,
"bluesky": null,
"facebook": null,
"instagram": null,
"linkedin": null,
"sites": [
{
"site": "forum",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
}
],
"headData": {
"title": "Cayla Mihalovich | KQED",
"description": "KQED Contributor",
"ogImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/bad03b12d733ae0f9c16837380d1a0bd9a2d5d820a497f9ae4066c7a19dcbe68?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/bad03b12d733ae0f9c16837380d1a0bd9a2d5d820a497f9ae4066c7a19dcbe68?s=600&d=blank&r=g"
},
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/author/cmihalovich"
},
"minakim": {
"type": "authors",
"id": "243",
"meta": {
"index": "authors_1716337520",
"id": "243",
"found": true
},
"name": "Mina Kim",
"firstName": "Mina",
"lastName": "Kim",
"slug": "minakim",
"email": "mkim@kqed.org",
"display_author_email": false,
"staff_mastheads": [
"news"
],
"title": "Host, Forum",
"bio": "Mina Kim is host of the 10 a.m. statewide hour of Forum; a live daily talk show for curious Californians on issues that matter to the state and nation, with a particular emphasis on race and equity.\r\n\r\nBefore joining the Forum team, Mina was KQED’s evening news anchor, and health reporter for The California Report. Her award-winning work has included natural disasters in Napa and gun violence in Oakland. Mina grew up in St. John’s, Newfoundland.",
"avatar": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/145ce657a2d08cb86d93686beb958982?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twitter": "mkimreporter",
"facebook": null,
"instagram": null,
"linkedin": null,
"sites": [
{
"site": "news",
"roles": [
"contributor"
]
},
{
"site": "stateofhealth",
"roles": [
"author"
]
},
{
"site": "forum",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
}
],
"headData": {
"title": "Mina Kim | KQED",
"description": "Host, Forum",
"ogImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/145ce657a2d08cb86d93686beb958982?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/145ce657a2d08cb86d93686beb958982?s=600&d=blank&r=g"
},
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/author/minakim"
},
"sbritton": {
"type": "authors",
"id": "11335",
"meta": {
"index": "authors_1716337520",
"id": "11335",
"found": true
},
"name": "Susan Britton",
"firstName": "Susan",
"lastName": "Britton",
"slug": "sbritton",
"email": "sbritton@kqed.org",
"display_author_email": true,
"staff_mastheads": [
"news"
],
"title": "Producer, Forum",
"bio": "Susan Britton is the lead producer of Forum with Mina Kim. She's been with Forum since 2012, beginning as an on-call producer, and she was a longtime senior producer for KALW. Before embarking on a career in public radio, Susan practiced law. She's a graduate of Columbia Law School and Yale College.",
"avatar": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/8272e7b263bc5e4b936796c8adff5f2cd6bc4a94461a9300991c601d118479d4?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twitter": "@sngbritton",
"bluesky": null,
"facebook": null,
"instagram": null,
"linkedin": null,
"sites": [
{
"site": "forum",
"roles": [
"administrator"
]
}
],
"headData": {
"title": "Susan Britton | KQED",
"description": "Producer, Forum",
"ogImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/8272e7b263bc5e4b936796c8adff5f2cd6bc4a94461a9300991c601d118479d4?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/8272e7b263bc5e4b936796c8adff5f2cd6bc4a94461a9300991c601d118479d4?s=600&d=blank&r=g"
},
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/author/sbritton"
},
"amadrigal": {
"type": "authors",
"id": "11757",
"meta": {
"index": "authors_1716337520",
"id": "11757",
"found": true
},
"name": "Alexis Madrigal",
"firstName": "Alexis",
"lastName": "Madrigal",
"slug": "amadrigal",
"email": "amadrigal@kqed.org",
"display_author_email": true,
"staff_mastheads": [],
"title": "Co-Host Forum",
"bio": "Alexis Madrigal is the co-host of Forum. He is also a contributing writer at \u003cem>The Atlantic \u003c/em>and the co-founder of the COVID Tracking Project. He's the creator of the podcast, \u003cem>Containers\u003c/em>, and has been a staff writer at \u003cem>Wired. \u003c/em>He was a visiting scholar at UC Berkeley's Information School, and is working on a book about Oakland and the Bay Area's revolutionary ideas.",
"avatar": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/ffeee1fe99a3e31957381f377ca63502bdcc0c3dbccaaa701e579a10aa0c5e1f?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twitter": "alexismadrigal",
"bluesky": null,
"facebook": null,
"instagram": null,
"linkedin": null,
"sites": [
{
"site": "arts",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
},
{
"site": "news",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
},
{
"site": "forum",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
}
],
"headData": {
"title": "Alexis Madrigal | KQED",
"description": "Co-Host Forum",
"ogImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/ffeee1fe99a3e31957381f377ca63502bdcc0c3dbccaaa701e579a10aa0c5e1f?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/ffeee1fe99a3e31957381f377ca63502bdcc0c3dbccaaa701e579a10aa0c5e1f?s=600&d=blank&r=g"
},
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/author/amadrigal"
},
"chambrick": {
"type": "authors",
"id": "11832",
"meta": {
"index": "authors_1716337520",
"id": "11832",
"found": true
},
"name": "Chris Hambrick",
"firstName": "Chris",
"lastName": "Hambrick",
"slug": "chambrick",
"email": "chambrick@kqed.org",
"display_author_email": false,
"staff_mastheads": [],
"title": "KQED Contributor",
"bio": null,
"avatar": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/23cb83888bc440645af5d36d0d1909e8ecb6cef21f2fdb96abf9a55495bb19d8?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twitter": null,
"bluesky": null,
"facebook": null,
"instagram": null,
"linkedin": null,
"sites": [
{
"site": "",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
},
{
"site": "arts",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
},
{
"site": "news",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
},
{
"site": "podcasts",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
}
],
"headData": {
"title": "Chris Hambrick | KQED",
"description": "KQED Contributor",
"ogImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/23cb83888bc440645af5d36d0d1909e8ecb6cef21f2fdb96abf9a55495bb19d8?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/23cb83888bc440645af5d36d0d1909e8ecb6cef21f2fdb96abf9a55495bb19d8?s=600&d=blank&r=g"
},
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/author/chambrick"
},
"cegusa": {
"type": "authors",
"id": "11869",
"meta": {
"index": "authors_1716337520",
"id": "11869",
"found": true
},
"name": "Chris Egusa",
"firstName": "Chris",
"lastName": "Egusa",
"slug": "cegusa",
"email": "cegusa@kqed.org",
"display_author_email": false,
"staff_mastheads": [],
"title": "KQED Contributor",
"bio": null,
"avatar": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/3562ed52747313a4c94017da88ea89f9e85cd901f63ebc056a7d5e0adf4a03da?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twitter": null,
"bluesky": null,
"facebook": null,
"instagram": null,
"linkedin": null,
"sites": [
{
"site": "arts",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
},
{
"site": "news",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
}
],
"headData": {
"title": "Chris Egusa | KQED",
"description": "KQED Contributor",
"ogImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/3562ed52747313a4c94017da88ea89f9e85cd901f63ebc056a7d5e0adf4a03da?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/3562ed52747313a4c94017da88ea89f9e85cd901f63ebc056a7d5e0adf4a03da?s=600&d=blank&r=g"
},
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/author/cegusa"
},
"mcueva": {
"type": "authors",
"id": "11943",
"meta": {
"index": "authors_1716337520",
"id": "11943",
"found": true
},
"name": "Maya Cueva",
"firstName": "Maya",
"lastName": "Cueva",
"slug": "mcueva",
"email": "mcueva@kqed.org",
"display_author_email": false,
"staff_mastheads": [],
"title": "KQED Contributor",
"bio": null,
"avatar": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/238c7aba67c4b6b7b891965ba8cc9e9a4928b5dbdeaf4bde6a81c13e87f49b49?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twitter": null,
"bluesky": null,
"facebook": null,
"instagram": null,
"linkedin": null,
"sites": [
{
"site": "news",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
}
],
"headData": {
"title": "Maya Cueva | KQED",
"description": "KQED Contributor",
"ogImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/238c7aba67c4b6b7b891965ba8cc9e9a4928b5dbdeaf4bde6a81c13e87f49b49?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/238c7aba67c4b6b7b891965ba8cc9e9a4928b5dbdeaf4bde6a81c13e87f49b49?s=600&d=blank&r=g"
},
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/author/mcueva"
},
"msung": {
"type": "authors",
"id": "11944",
"meta": {
"index": "authors_1716337520",
"id": "11944",
"found": true
},
"name": "Morgan Sung",
"firstName": "Morgan",
"lastName": "Sung",
"slug": "msung",
"email": "msung@kqed.org",
"display_author_email": false,
"staff_mastheads": [],
"title": "Close All Tabs Host",
"bio": null,
"avatar": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/34033b8d232ee6c987ca6f0a1a28f0e5?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twitter": null,
"facebook": null,
"instagram": null,
"linkedin": null,
"sites": [
{
"site": "news",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
}
],
"headData": {
"title": "Morgan Sung | KQED",
"description": "Close All Tabs Host",
"ogImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/34033b8d232ee6c987ca6f0a1a28f0e5?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/34033b8d232ee6c987ca6f0a1a28f0e5?s=600&d=blank&r=g"
},
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/author/msung"
},
"lyoon": {
"type": "authors",
"id": "12026",
"meta": {
"index": "authors_1716337520",
"id": "12026",
"found": true
},
"name": "Lauren Yoon",
"firstName": "Lauren",
"lastName": "Yoon",
"slug": "lyoon",
"email": "lyoon@kqed.org",
"display_author_email": false,
"staff_mastheads": [],
"title": "Close All Tabs Intern",
"bio": "Lauren Yoon is the intern for Close All Tabs, a podcast about how tech and internet culture shapes our lives. Before joining the show, she was a student journalist at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, double-majoring in Ethnic Studies. She also interned for KCBX and covered hard news as a part-time reporter. Lauren grew up in Torrance, California, and loves to cook, sew, and watch movies in her free time.",
"avatar": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/50ef374f3c58d88d0d657272b655b1a7ceac33017d19c3dac5a2cb3dd3e2f44f?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twitter": null,
"bluesky": null,
"facebook": null,
"instagram": null,
"linkedin": null,
"sites": [
{
"site": "news",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
},
{
"site": "podcasts",
"roles": [
"author"
]
}
],
"headData": {
"title": "Lauren Yoon | KQED",
"description": "Close All Tabs Intern",
"ogImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/50ef374f3c58d88d0d657272b655b1a7ceac33017d19c3dac5a2cb3dd3e2f44f?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/50ef374f3c58d88d0d657272b655b1a7ceac33017d19c3dac5a2cb3dd3e2f44f?s=600&d=blank&r=g"
},
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/author/lyoon"
}
},
"pagesReducer": {
"author_cmihalovich": {
"type": "pages",
"id": "12028",
"meta": {
"index": "authors_1716337520",
"id": "12028",
"score": 6.7979403,
"site": "authors"
},
"name": "Cayla Mihalovich",
"firstName": "Cayla",
"lastName": "Mihalovich",
"slug": "cmihalovich",
"email": "cmihalovich@kqed.org",
"display_author_email": false,
"staff_mastheads": [],
"title": "KQED Contributor",
"bio": null,
"avatar": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/bad03b12d733ae0f9c16837380d1a0bd9a2d5d820a497f9ae4066c7a19dcbe68?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twitter": null,
"bluesky": null,
"facebook": null,
"instagram": null,
"linkedin": null,
"sites": [
{
"site": "forum",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
}
],
"headData": {
"title": "Cayla Mihalovich | KQED",
"description": "KQED Contributor",
"ogImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/bad03b12d733ae0f9c16837380d1a0bd9a2d5d820a497f9ae4066c7a19dcbe68?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/bad03b12d733ae0f9c16837380d1a0bd9a2d5d820a497f9ae4066c7a19dcbe68?s=600&d=blank&r=g"
},
"isLoading": false,
"hasAllInfo": true,
"blocks": [
{
"blockName": "kqed/staff-member",
"attrs": {
"author": {
"type": "authors",
"id": "12028",
"meta": {
"index": "authors_1716337520",
"id": "12028",
"score": 6.7979403
},
"name": "Cayla Mihalovich",
"firstName": "Cayla",
"lastName": "Mihalovich",
"slug": "cmihalovich",
"email": "cmihalovich@kqed.org",
"display_author_email": false,
"staff_mastheads": [],
"title": "KQED Contributor",
"bio": null,
"avatar": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/bad03b12d733ae0f9c16837380d1a0bd9a2d5d820a497f9ae4066c7a19dcbe68?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twitter": null,
"bluesky": null,
"facebook": null,
"instagram": null,
"linkedin": null,
"sites": [
{
"site": "forum",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
}
],
"headData": {
"title": "Cayla Mihalovich | KQED",
"description": "KQED Contributor",
"ogImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/bad03b12d733ae0f9c16837380d1a0bd9a2d5d820a497f9ae4066c7a19dcbe68?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/bad03b12d733ae0f9c16837380d1a0bd9a2d5d820a497f9ae4066c7a19dcbe68?s=600&d=blank&r=g"
},
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/author/cmihalovich",
"hasAllInfo": true
}
}
},
{
"blockName": "kqed/post-list",
"attrs": {
"query": "posts?author=12028&authorName=Cayla Mihalovich",
"title": "By Cayla Mihalovich",
"layout": "cardArticle2",
"className": "wp-block--nomargintop",
"seeMore": true
}
}
]
}
},
"pfsSessionReducer": {},
"postsReducer": {
"stream_live": {
"type": "live",
"id": "stream_live",
"audioUrl": "https://streams.kqed.org/kqedradio",
"title": "Live Stream",
"excerpt": "Live Stream information currently unavailable.",
"link": "/radio",
"featImg": "",
"label": {
"name": "KQED Live",
"link": "/"
}
},
"stream_kqedNewscast": {
"type": "posts",
"id": "stream_kqedNewscast",
"audioUrl": "https://www.kqed.org/.stream/anon/radio/RDnews/newscast.mp3?_=1",
"title": "KQED Newscast",
"featImg": "",
"label": {
"name": "88.5 FM",
"link": "/"
}
},
"news_12103258": {
"type": "posts",
"id": "news_12103258",
"meta": {
"index": "posts_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "12103258",
"score": null,
"sort": [
1791367200000
]
},
"guestAuthors": [],
"slug": "my-body-my-peptides",
"title": "Influencers Are Peddling Peptides, but Is Tanmaxxing Worth the Risk?",
"publishDate": 1791367200,
"format": "audio",
"headTitle": "Influencers Are Peddling Peptides, but Is Tanmaxxing Worth the Risk? | KQED",
"labelTerm": {},
"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Seems like everywhere you turn these days, influencers are gushing about their peptide use and how it’s done wonders for their appearance and health. One of the more popular ones, Melanotan II, also known as the “Barbie” peptide, is said to give you a tan without the harmful effects of sun exposure. But many of these substances aren’t approved by the FDA and are often sold through unregulated gray market sources. So, how safe is any of this stuff? And what does the peptide boom tell us about the risks people will take in the name of “looksmaxxing?” Morgan talks to skin cancer surgeon Dr. Sungat Grewal and board certified dermatologist Dr. Caren Campbell about the risks of taking peptides. Then Morgan and STAT News reporter Sarah Todd break down how American medical libertarianism and the MAHA movement led us to this very point in time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Guests:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ucsfhealth.org/providers/sungat-grewal\">Dr. Sungat Grewal\u003c/a>, double board-certified dermatologist and Mohs surgeon\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.carencampbellmd.com/?srsltid=AU7gw4XTOrftqgnQy6ysplZ8IdAO4P-TLRwup140ITmchvEhXpO36qrR\">Dr. Caren Campbell\u003c/a>, board-certified dermatologist\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/staff/sarah-todd/\">Sarah Todd\u003c/a>, reporter for \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/04/06/rfk-jr-apparent-contradiction-peptides-vaccines-medical-libertarianism/\">What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/07/24/fda-peptide-compounding-panel-backs-epitalon-rejects-emideltide/\">FDA advisory panel narrowly rejects compounding of one peptide, backs two others\u003c/a> — Lizzy Lawrence and Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/07/23/fda-panel-okays-peptides-compound-pharmacies-bpc-157-kpv/\">FDA panel backs compounded BPC-157, KPV peptides in win for RFK Jr.\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd and Lizzy Lawrence, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/04/06/rfk-jr-apparent-contradiction-peptides-vaccines-medical-libertarianism/\">What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.elle.com/beauty/health-fitness/a73232620/tanmaxxing-trend-explained-interview-2026/\">Is Tanmaxxing an Addiction? A Dermatologist and Psychologist Explains\u003c/a> — Katie Berohn, \u003cem>ELLE\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.gq.com/story/inside-the-weird-new-world-of-peptide-tanning\">Inside the Weird New World of Peptide Tanning\u003c/a> — Savannah Sobrevilla, \u003cem>GQ\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.axios.com/2026/06/29/barbie-drug-peptide-shot-tan\">Melanotan: The “Barbie drug” tanning peptide, explained\u003c/a> — Carly Mallenbaum, \u003cem>Axios\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/live-well/longevity/story/tanning-peptides-melanotan-vyleesi-pt141\">Inside the Viral Tanning Peptide That Accidentally Created Vyleesi’s FDA-Approved Low Sex Drive Drug\u003c/a> — Sara Kitnick, \u003cem>LA Times Studios\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.allure.com/story/fda-peptide-ban-reversal\">The FDA May Reverse a Ban on 14 Injectable Peptides—What That Means For the Beauty Industry\u003c/a> — Kara Nesvig, \u003cem>Allure\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.skincancer.org/press/the-skin-cancer-foundation-issues-warning-regarding-melanotan-ii/\">The Skin Cancer Foundation Issues Warning Regarding Melanotan II\u003c/a> — Deborah S. Sarnoff, MD, \u003cem>Skin Cancer Foundation\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Host, Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Can I be honest? I am pretty vain.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I take my skincare routine very seriously: Prescription-strength azelaic acid in the morning, and prescription-strength tretinoin at night. Lots of sunscreen and moisturizer and barrier creams in between, and every other night, I skip the tretinoin and spend three minutes under a red light mask. If I’m feeling indulgent, I’ll throw in a Korean gel mask and a jade roller. Do those do anything? I honestly can’t tell. But it feels nice! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I wouldn’t call myself a looksmaxxer, but I do spend a good amount of time on these beautification rituals. And as a woman who exists on the internet, I feel like my For You Page is constantly lobbing beauty trends at me, and like I’m always trying to avoid getting sucked into yet another fad. I have tried so many serums and face masks and supplements before finally settling into what I consider to be a pretty pared down beauty regiment. But the one thing I haven’t tried yet is a peptide. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It seems like everyone is on them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clips of influencers raving about peptides]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Speaker 1: This is, in my opinion, the most slept-on peptide on the market today. There’s two main benefits that have been life-changing for me . \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: You’re telling me there’s a botox alternative that’s easier on your wallet? Whoa! Let’s talk about Snap-8, the peptide that targets wrinkles without the needles. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Peptides are chemical signals that your body naturally makes to regulate all kinds of bodily functions, like digestion and recovery. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> So peptides are like text messages. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Sungat Grewal is a double board certified dermatologist and skin cancer surgeon. She’s the co-director of Laser Surgery and Cosmetic Dermatology at UCSF. And she’s been keeping an eye on the synthetic peptides people are taking to boost their bodies’ natural processes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>They’re not necessarily good or bad inherently, but it depends on who’s sending the message, what the message is, and who receives it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And I’m not just talking about GLP-1s. Peptide stacking is really in right now. Retatrutide and Tesamorelin for weight loss, Ipamorelin for muscle growth, the “Wolverine Stack” of BPC-157 and TB-500 to boost healing after a gym sesh. If you throw in the copper peptide GHK-Cu, you’ve got a “Glow Stack,” the hot girl combo optimized for anti-aging collagen production. It’s a lot, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some of these compounds are not cleared by the FDA, so the way people get a hold of them is a legal hit or miss. But peptides remain incredibly popular despite the gray market. And there’s one that’s \u003cem>really\u003c/em> blown up this summer: Melanotan II. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cbr>[Clip from Youtube User @SpaandTell]\u003cbr>Kylie says hi Kim your tan looks great. Thank you! I’ve been using the melanotan II peptide over the last month, and I’ve been going outside, and it’s been working like a charm, so excited. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>MT-2 for short — also known as “The Barbie peptide” or “the vacation drug.” It makes you tan, skinny, and horny (it’s a libido booster) — with no harmful UV exposure required. But Dr. Grewal says it also comes with legitimately concerning risks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>It’s pretty scary and it’s very sad, you know, when, um, people are chasing aesthetic goals and are being misdirected and exposing themselves to unknown risks or known risks, not only in the moment, but for future and forever forward, right? Some of these impacts have long-lasting effects.\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re diving into the world of peptides: the dangers of tanmaxxing despite the influencer promotion, and RFK Jr’s crusade to reverse the peptide bans in the U.S. What does the peptide craze say about Americans’ relationship with health and risk? Let’s jump in. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re starting with a new tab. What is melanotan?\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m part of a few weddings this year, and I wanted to look a little more sunkissed. But I’m inside like, all the time, and I have no interest in tanning beds because I don’t want to wrinkle. Again, vain! Sorry! So I started looking into self tanners. I looked up a few beauty influencers who reviewed tanning lotions … and that’s when my feed was inundated with people\u003cs> \u003c/s>recommending this miracle drug: MT-2.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @toxdaddy]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Oh man, I’m super excited. I just got Melanotan 2 this morning and I’m really excited to try it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @carlysnaxwell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I started taking MT2. I’m tan. I haven’t gone bed tanning in a while… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @itsdevync]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I’m now at two months of taking it. I’m obsessed. My tan is only getting better … \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Youtube user@SpaandTell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I am crazy impressed by this – by this, I mean, the Melanotan 2 peptide.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> And it’s not just the tan that makes it so appealing. Dr. Grewal says Melanotan II also has some specific side effects…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong> It’s marketed as the Barbie peptide because tanning might be the effect that you’re shopping for, but it’s not the only effect and some of them can translate into, um, increased libido or decreased appetite. \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>How does it do all that? Well, let’s talk about how peptides work. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Again, peptides are the chemical signals for your body to perform certain functions. Your body has tons of receptors, and peptides can target specific ones, almost like sending a text to a specific phone number. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>You can think about two kinds, like natural versus synthetic. So our body makes peptides naturally. Some common examples would be like insulin or GLP-1. And synthetically, you know, we can create, uh, synthetic peptides to mimic those that are made naturally in the body to get a specific effect\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Melanotan I and Melanotan II are synthetic peptides that…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> …mimic a naturally occurring peptide in the body called alpha-MSH or melanocyte-stimulating hormone. And so there are receptors that are in numerous places in the body called melanocortin receptors that can respond to this signal or chain of events.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are five types of melanocortin receptors in the body. The first regulates hair and skin pigmentation, and it’s what triggers tans. And it’s also really important to understand what getting tan \u003cem>really\u003c/em> means for your body. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> It’s literally your nucleus and your cell saying, “Oh my God, save my DNA.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung : \u003c/strong>This is Dr. Caren Campbell, a board certified dermatologist who practices medical, surgical, and cosmetic dermatology in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell: \u003c/strong>You know, it’s putting an umbrella over it. Your cell is saying, like, “Help me. Protect my DNA so I don’t mutate and cause cancer.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That little umbrella is called eumelanin, and it produces brown and black pigments in the body. It’s what causes darker colors in skin, eyes, and hair. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So Melanotan I sends a text to that first melanocortin receptor, which tells your cells to pop their little umbrellas up to protect their DNA … which is what triggers a tan, without actual UV exposure. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Melanotan I is actually FDA-approved for a very, very specific, very rare skin condition that causes extreme sensitivity to light.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Erythropoietic protoporphyria\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Or EPP for short. It’s actually so rare that Dr. Grewal has never seen the condition in her medical career. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Its incidence has been estimated at two to five cases per million people. You would know if you had this because you have symptoms when you’re a young child. Children have very severe, painful, uh, photosensitivity after exposure to sunlight or even visible light, which can come from even indoor lights, laptop screens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>EPP causes extreme swelling, burning, and pain when exposed to certain light. So the FDA approved a prescription implant of Melanotan I for people with EPP, which stimulates their bodies to produce eumelanin. These little cell umbrellas absorb that light before it can damage their skin. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, Melanotan II, which is the hot one right now, sends a group text to that first receptor. But remember, there are \u003cem>5\u003c/em> melanocortin receptors in the body. So it’s also sending that text to receptors three, four, and five as well. And these aren’t just in the skin. They’re all over the body, including in the central nervous system, which is why MT-2 can cause appetite suppression and boost libido. And because these receptors are all over the body, MT-2 can also cause unpredictable systemic changes … with unpleasant and even dangerous symptoms. Here’s Dr. Campbell again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> In men, that can lead to potentially what’s called priapism, which is where you have an erection that, you know, doesn’t go away, and there was a, a case report of someone needing to have that surgically drained in the emergency room.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, it, it also can cause nausea and vomiting. It’s also stimulates our sympathetic nervous system, which you can think about that like your fight or flight. So anything you needed to, like, run away from a predator, it does. So it dilates your pupils so you can see better.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It causes, you know, increased heart rate so you can get running. It causes hypertension ’cause it constricts your blood vessels. Um, so that fight or flight response can be elevated and you can get what’s called rhabdomyolysis, which is where you get muscle breakdown, and it can be very dangerous, um, life-threatening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So those side effects are pretty rough. But Dr. Grewal says there’s also this main one … \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> We have seen reports of patients like breaking out in moles, for example, and breaking out in atypical or what we call funky looking moles, right? \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @\u003c/em>cablequeencourt]\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Let’s count how many moles we have on our face since taking MT2. So this one’s new. This is new …Yeah, um, and that’s not including what’s going on on my body….\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Moles are clusters of melanocytes, the skin cells that make pigment. Most are totally benign. But like Dr. Grewal said, Melanotan moles are … funky.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Because it’s stimulating the same pathway that can eventually lead to melanoma. And again, we don’t have causation yet, but we do not have long-term data. And so why would you subject yourself to that risk when you can use other methods to tan the skin safely without breaking out in moles? And the moles are not just darker, the moles, like, look concerning. They, they often have atypical features.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Those little cell umbrellas can only protect so much. And if you’re exposing them to harmful UV rays over and over again, they can mutate and become cancerous. One of the ways dermatologists evaluate moles for cancer is by checking if they’ve evolved — if they’re getting bigger, darker, and wonkier. This isn’t as much of a concern for patients who are prescribed MT-1 for EPP, since they’re generally not engaging in risky behavior that causes additional UV damage — like intentionally tanning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But when it comes to the tanmaxxers … \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @sooshbrah]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>This is 2021, 2022, I was doing 500 micrograms of Melanotan and I was jumping in the tanning bed for 15 minutes. I literally changed race in like three sessions. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> I can’t say for certain that, you know, melanotan causes melanoma. But we do know based on what are, again, called case [00:23:00] reports, where we don’t have large numbers, but we have good evidence of people who’ve started melanotan and then as soon as two weeks noticed almost immediate darkening and irregularity of their moles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Campbell said that in this case report, one of the patients had used tanning beds and melanotan at the same time, and had five new moles biopsied. All five were cancerous. And there aren’t many clinical studies on the effects of long-term melanotan use, in a broad population of users who don’t have EPP. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Melanotan II was actually developed in the late 80s to early 90s, and in the early 2000s, researchers began testing it to treat sexual dysfunction. But Dr. Grewal says there’s a reason it never made it to market. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Usually when a peptide or any product is on its way to becoming a drug, it goes through rigorous testing, and pharmaceuticals would love to sell it because they’re gonna profit immensely. So usually when it drops off the track, it’s because either it’s not providing the results that they’re hoping for or the safety is not promising\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Despite that, both MT-1 and MT-2 are still wildly popular on the gray market, as both a nasal spray and an injectable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately I am not surprised because, you know, the story of wanting tanner skin is a story we’ve heard before. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, you know, first it was tanning beds, now we know how dangerous those are in terms of increasing melanoma risk even with one use, you know, before the age of 30. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And as is the case with many unregulated, technically illegal peptides, vendors can sell them around the US thanks to a handy loophole: the “Research Use Only” pathway. Essentially saying, this product legally isn’t for human consumption, with no quality guarantee or regulatory oversight. But there’s really nothing that can stop buyers from using it on themselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> You have to remember that when it’s not FDA regulated, you really have no idea what’s in the bottle. What you’re getting in your bottle is like a crapshoot. So, you know, and historically we’ve seen issues with, um, sterility of products, contamination with unregulated products, and the concentration and the purity is also unknown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that alone is like a huge reason why I would never advise anyone to take a non FDA-approved medication, whether or not it’s a peptide, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So knowing all of these risks, both healthwise and lookswise, why are people bent on taking Melanotan? And this is just one of many unregulated, very popular peptides! What’s driving the peptide boom in spite of medical experts’ warnings?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That is a whole new tab… for after this quick break. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you! To become a member and support the show, go to donate dot kqed dot org slash podcasts. Ok, after the break: we’re diving into medical libertarianism. Stick around.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome back! Time to open a new tab. Peptides and medical libertarianism. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>RFK Jr, the vaccine denier and guy in charge of our entire country’s health department, is also a pep pusher. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Yeah I mean I’m a big fan of peptides. I’ve used them myself. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was RFK Jr on Joe Rogan’s podcast earlier this year, where he spoke about the proliferation of unregulated peptides. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>A black market came out and the black market is run by companies that say they’re making the peptides for animal use or research purposes. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So basically when you buy peptides online you don’t have any guarantees about the safety and the quality of what you’re buying. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s Sarah Todd, a reporter at STAT News. She covers the business of health, which means she’s also been following the gray market peptide industry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> New York Magazine had a bunch of peptides tested and found that about a third of them were mislabeled or under or overdosed or contaminated by bacteria. So those are all some of the potential health risks that you run into when you’re getting them off the gray and black market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But that hasn’t diminished people’s appetite for peptides. Sarah says this all falls in line with a concept called “medical libertarianism” — the idea that we should be allowed to do whatever we want with our bodies regardless of what the government or medical establishment says.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that extends to taking drugs like peptides that don’t have a lot of data behind them when it comes to their impacts on humans, either their benefits or their potential risks. But the idea with medical libertarianism is, like, that’s my choice, and if I’m willing to put my body on the line for the hopeful benefits that I can get, then I should be able to do so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s a very American mindset. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> It really goes along with this sort of all-American idea that we can control our own destinies and make our own choices, right? And a sort of suspicion about the government’s role in overseeing people’s lives, a desire to, you know, ward off the idea of the nanny state and the idea that people should be able to chase their own pursuit of happiness and the American dream.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if that includes self-optimizing your body and your health, then that’s something that people should be allowed to do, would be the argument that these people are making.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Americans have always had this attitude about health. In the 1970s, there was a huge backlash from the public when the government tried to regulate vitamin and supplement industries…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People wrote in and said, “Don’t take my vitamins away, “ and we wound up with the situation that we have today, where they’re still many people would argue, uh, largely unregulated or very under-regulated. I think that people really wanted to hold on to these kinds of products. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There have been ebbs and flows to medical libertarianism throughout modern American history. And then the COVID 19 pandemic hit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People started self-experimenting with all kinds of things, like everything from ivermectin, which you m- may remember, to some sort of herbal medicines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> On one hand, you had a lot of interest in sort of like experimentation with drugs to see what you could do to improve your own health, protect yourself potentially from COVID in various ways. We also saw a big boom in the rise of social media health influencers, health and wellness influencers during this time as well, and I think that has played a huge role.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Many of the sort of man-fluencers like Joe Rogan and, and Gary Brecka and Andrew Huberman were already popular pre-pandemic, but sort of like became even more so, gained huge followings during, and I think that that’s had a lot to do with the sort of rising awareness of peptides and interest in trying them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>People started taking this “folk pharmacology” approach to medicine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So that term folk pharmacology was mentioned by a researcher I spoke with for a story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>His name is Luke Turnock, and he talked about how first it sort of started, uh, with peptides in the gym, with bodybuilders and powerlifters sort of sharing, like, “Oh, this, this drug is really helping me recover from this industry. This drug is making me stronger.” But he applies that to the way that people talk about peptides in online spaces and forums as well, where people are generally a lot more likely to believe somebody else on a Reddit forum than they might be to listen to a researcher who’s telling them there’s not enough data to support taking these drugs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think it, it has to do with some of the decline of trust in science, and then it also has to do with the sort of, like, just stock that we put in recommendations from other people who we perceive as regular people, whether that’s, like, you know, somebody telling us, like, “Oh, I love this vacuum,” or in this case, “I love my Wolverine stack,” you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Make American Healthy Again movement is also pretty staunchly anti-vaccine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When I first started thinking about this, I was like, “This seems like a huge contradiction.” I didn’t understand why the MAHA movement would be so skeptical toward vaccines and yet really welcoming toward peptides. But I think it comes back to what we were talking about with medical libertarianism.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A lot of the MAHA people don’t necessarily want nobody to get vaccines. They say they are more wary of certain vaccine mandates. So there the idea again is like, “Don’t tell me what to do with my own body. It should be my choice whether or not I take it.” Peptides, again, they’re saying they don’t want everybody to have to take peptides.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They just wanna be able to take peptides if they want to. So that’s where it all sort of begins to make sense in an overall worldview.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this brand of medical libertarianism is applied pretty inconsistently. RFK Jr’s MAHA agenda is actively restricting access to trans healthcare, birth control, and abortion — issues that revolve around bodily autonomy. But when it comes to peptides? They believe the government should be hands-off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It goes back to a Biden-era decision.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So back in 2023, the Biden administration moved a bunch of peptides into a different category. That meant that compounding pharmacies could no longer produce them, and their reasons were basically, you know, what we’ve been talking about the typical warnings that we get from the medical community, that these drugs haven’t been studied enough to be able to say definitively that they are either going to do what they promise they’ll do or that they won’t cause some other big problem like cancer as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that was the reason for moving over the classification. Now what Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is looking to do is to reclassify some of those peptides so the compounding pharmacies can indeed begin producing them again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Which means that they can be legally produced in the US, under \u003cem>some\u003c/em> regulatory oversight — unlike the facilities that are producing gray market peptides now. Compounding pharmacies at least have to be licensed and routinely inspected through state pharmacy boards. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>RFK JR. has been on this crusade to get the FDA to lift this Biden-era peptide ban — which he talked about on that same Joe Rogan podcast episode.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> He basically said that he is a fan of peptides. He wants to make them more accessible via compounding pharmacies. Uh, but the reason he says is not necessarily he understands that not all the science and data is out there on peptides yet, but he says that it’s gonna be safer for people to get them from compounding pharmacies than to get them off the gray and black market, and that’s sort of his logic for, for why it would make sense to, to reclassify them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And that is a new tab. Are peptides legal now? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>I\u003c/strong>t’s complicated. We’re gonna start by explaining different kinds of pharmacies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, typical pharmacies make and dispense FDA-approved drugs. There are the retail pharmacies that sell over-the-counter allergy meds or fill your prescriptions for blood pressure pills. There are specialty pharmacies that manage medications for very rare, highly complex health conditions, which might require stricter protocols for handling, storing, and administering meds. Both of these types of pharmacies mainly deal with medications that have already been manufactured. The pharmacy makes sure they’re giving patients the right dosage and right amount of pre-made meds. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, compounding pharmacies mix the medications themselves. There are lots of reasons why people use them: maybe the commercial version of the drug includes ingredients they’re allergic to, or maybe they need a cream, not a gel. Maybe the only way to get the right dosage is by getting a custom mix. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Sometimes there are drug shortages, and compounding pharmacies can be an alternative as well then because they can custom make a particular drug that maybe, uh, isn’t available at the moment. It might also be, as was the case with GLP-1 weight loss drugs, uh, compounding pharmacies were making a lot of, uh, GLP-1 drugs that were alternatives to the more expensive ones, like Ozempic and Wegovy, and the idea h- here was, like, you sacrifice the sort of name brand, uh, aspect, but then you, you could get the, the drugs that would have, hopefully, the same effects for cheaper.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that’s another reason why people might turn to compounding pharmacies as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In recent years, compounding pharmacies have become wildly lucrative, thanks to the rise of for-profit telehealth. A lot of telehealth companies have in-house compounding pharmacies, and they sell all kinds of prescription meds: personalized topical creams with Tretinoin and Niacinamide for acne, chewable tablets of Finasteride and Minoxidil for hair loss, low-dose Vardenafil for erectile dysfunction, custom-mixed hormone replacement suppositories for menopause, and now, compounded GLP-1s for weight loss. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Compounding pharmacies can legally make anything … as long the ingredients they’re working are good with the FDA. The final product doesn’t have to be FDA-approved.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The drugs that a compounding pharmacy makes do not necessarily have to have been authorized by the FDA. Um, as long as, you know, they have a prescription for that drug from a healthcare provider, they will, will produce the drugs. And then there’s certain, uh, substances that they’re not allowed to make, such as the peptides that are currently on the 503B substances list. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are 19 peptides on that 503B substances list, including Melanotan II. Earlier this year, the FDA announced that they were going to consider reclassifying \u003cem>some\u003c/em> of those banned peptides. This is not the same as FDA approval. They haven’t gone through clinical trials that guarantee safety or efficacy, and the FDA doesn’t verify the quality before they hit the market. But if they are reclassified, that means that compounding pharmacies are allowed to make and distribute medications that contain them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The argument that was probably most common from the people on the side of making peptides more accessible via compounding pharmacies was that it’s true that we don’t have all the data yet, and we do need more of it. However, we really don’t want people getting these drugs off the gray and black market because of the other health risks, you know, the risks of contamination, the risk of mislabeled drugs where you think that you’re getting one thing, you’re actually getting something else. And they basically said patients are demanding these drugs and we should make sure that if they’re going to take them, they’re taking it the safest way they can.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In other words, it’s better to have Americans sourcing their peptides from regulated facilities, rather than overseas labs that may not be held to the same standards of sterility and quality.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In July, an FDA advisory panel met to discuss whether or not to recommend reclassification for seven peptides.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The advisory panel itself was really controversial. So this is a group of people who aren’t members of the FDA themselves, and the FDA doesn’t have to follow their recommendations, but typically, their recommendations carry a lot of weight, and typically, an advisory panel is made up of doctors, researchers, other experts in their field.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In this case the people who were appointed to the panel, a lot of them were people who had some sort of potential conflict of interest or stake in the outcome of the decision on peptides, people who are prescribing peptides themselves, people who are you know, affiliated with compounding pharmacies in some way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that immediately raised a lot of red flags for critics who said, “How can we trust the advice of an advisory panel if it’s people who would potentially stand to profit from what the outcome is?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The pro-peptide crowd on the panel pointed out that patients are demanding these drugs, and that \u003cem>some \u003c/em>regulatory oversight is better than continuing to allow Americans to get their peptides from sketchy overseas labs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>Then the counterargument from the medical experts is basically that there, again, simply isn’t enough human data on these drugs. There’s a lot of concern about what it would mean to make it easier for people to take these drugs that are indeed in high demand but that we simply don’t know what kinds of short or long-term health effects they might have.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And there have been cases of people reporting getting sick, having injuries from peptide doses. So, you know there are real concerns about what should be done in order to monitor peptides better and make sure that they’re safe. And you could hear a lot of frustration from the medical experts who were on the advisory panel as each vote on each separate drug went down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They vote on each drug individually, so as they started seeing what was going to happen of those seven drugs, six got recommended to be reclassified so that compounding pharmacies could make them. So a lot of frustration from the medical experts saying like,’Once again, we don’t know enough about how these drugs will impact people. We’re really worried that this is gonna be dangerous and put people’s health and potentially even their lives at risk.’ And then they were outnumbered on the panel by the, the people who were affiliated with the peptide industry or prescription in some way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this is where it gets really dicey. Before the advisory panel met, the FDA itself came out and said, hey, we say no to allowing compounding pharmacies to make any of these peptides. This was a decision made by multiple FDA staff scientists. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that was directly in conflict with the outcome of the meeting, which said six out of these seven peptides, they do recommend changing classifications.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Advisory panels rarely go against the FDA staff recommendation. According to reports of that meeting, after the votes were tallied and the recommendation was announced, an audible gasp rippled through the room. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>So with that, it’s gonna be really interesting to see now what happens. The ultimate decision is up to the FDA. So normally, it would be even if the advisory panel had recommended against, if FDA staffers felt really strongly, they could do whatever they felt was right but Robert F. Kennedy Jr., of course, is the head of the health department. He has a lot of power and influence, and I think a lot of outside observers are betting that even if FDA staff don’t think that this change should be made, that Kennedy may push it through which would obviously be quite bad for FDA morale as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Who will benefit from this decision? Well, like we talked about earlier, the telehealth industry and their in-house compounding pharmacies make a TON of money. And now they stand to make even more. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When you have people on the panel who it’s clear to see how they’re seeing a lot of patient demand. If they’re able to provide more prescriptions to patients for peptides, that is good for their business.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For the compounding pharmacies, it’s certainly huge for their bottom line. Hims and Hers announced that they’re looking to start offering peptides this year. Noom has also moved to start offering peptides. They purchased a compounding pharmacy business. So there are a lot of companies that certainly see an upside to giving into demand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But as one of the people who I spoke with pointed out, simply because people want drugs isn’t a good reason to authorize them, and simply because we don’t want them to get it off the gray market. If that were the case, then we would legalize heroin, which indeed actually some libertarians think we should, but which the majority of people think that there are good reasons to not do such a thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> so given the FDA’s, uh, I guess, like despite their tensions, um, what does the future of peptide stacking look like now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> For people who are enthusiastic about peptides, I think the future is bright in the sense of them being able to access them. I think it looks like more and more likely that there’s going to be a lot of regulatory interest under Kennedy as long as he’s in power in making these products more accessible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think that in terms of what the future looks like from a health perspective, the reality is that we simply don’t know, and that’s kind of scary. We don’t know what kind of effects these are going to have, and we don’t really right now have a robust way of monitoring or surveying for those effects either.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So what you would really wanna see are clinical trials that are studying people who are taking peptides and researching those outcomes, and that is one thing that we don’t currently have right now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But again, a recommendation isn’t the same as FDA approval. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Just because this, uh, the panel has said this, that doesn’t mean that compounding pharmacies now have the go-ahead to start producing them. The final decision is up to the FDA and the FDA rulemaking. I believe that outside experts think that process could take up to a year, so it’s not something that we would expect to see immediately happening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What about Melanotan II? Unfortunately for the tanmaxxers, the Barbie pep was not included in this latest list of panel recommendations. But it will get its moment soon: The FDA is slated to evaluate Melanotan II and four more peptides for reclassification early next year. \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That doesn’t mean it’s hard to get a hold of now, though. When I searched “Melanotan II near me,” I found dozens of medical spas across LA that advertise it as part of their “peptide therapy.” For $95, I could drive over to Beverly Hills and pick up a 5 mL vial at a clinic, or $150, I could get it delivered! Mobile IV clinics also offer it as an add-on to their on-demand IV services, so I could get my tan on, get a whole GLOW stack injected, and get a hangover cure administered at the same time, in my own living room! It’s like doordash for peptides! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though, Dr. Grewal does not find that as amusing as I do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> My gut reaction is honestly mortified, terrified, but also not surprised. And again, it just really brings me back to the point of, you know, the body is really complicated and medicine is complicated.I think the most important thing is that you research the person that is endorsing a specific product or, um, or approach, right? So, like, I love that people research, but I would really encourage, and I’m an advocate of spending the most time researching your source, who you’re going to assign as being credible\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As much as I love my skincare routine and gratuitous pursuit of beauty, I personally will be staying clear of the Barbie peptide. A little gradual tanning lotion and my trusty tanning mitt has never done me wrong. Plus, I don’t have to worry about breaking out into funky looking moles! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ok, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cbr>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode was produced by Cayla Mihalovich and Maya Cueva. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Close All Tabs team also includes senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is Executive Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode includes clips from TikTok creators carlysnaxwell, itsdevnyc, and cablequeencourt, clips from the Instagram accounts ToxDaddy and sooshbrah, and YouTube clips from SpaAndTell and Joe Rogan Experience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, my ‘foryou’ page every day it’s like, “Who’s on Glow? Who’s on the Glow stack or the Barbie stack?” Like you can’t escape it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Yeah, all over.\u003c/p>\n",
"blocks": [
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Seems like everywhere you turn these days, influencers are gushing about their peptide use and how it’s done wonders for their appearance and health. One of the more popular ones, Melanotan II, also known as the “Barbie” peptide, is said to give you a tan without the harmful effects of sun exposure. But many of these substances aren’t approved by the FDA and are often sold through unregulated gray market sources. So, how safe is any of this stuff? And what does the peptide boom tell us about the risks people will take in the name of “looksmaxxing?” Morgan talks to skin cancer surgeon Dr. Sungat Grewal and board certified dermatologist Dr. Caren Campbell about the risks of taking peptides. Then Morgan and STAT News reporter Sarah Todd break down how American medical libertarianism and the MAHA movement led us to this very point in time. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Seems like everywhere you turn these days, influencers are gushing about their peptide use and how it’s done wonders for their appearance and health. One of the more popular ones, Melanotan II, also known as the “Barbie” peptide, is said to give you a tan without the harmful effects of sun exposure. But many of these substances aren’t approved by the FDA and are often sold through unregulated gray market sources. So, how safe is any of this stuff? And what does the peptide boom tell us about the risks people will take in the name of “looksmaxxing?” Morgan talks to skin cancer surgeon Dr. Sungat Grewal and board certified dermatologist Dr. Caren Campbell about the risks of taking peptides. Then Morgan and STAT News reporter Sarah Todd break down how American medical libertarianism and the MAHA movement led us to this very point in time. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"text": "Guests:",
"level": 2
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Guests:\u003c/h2>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Guests:\u003c/h2>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/list",
"attrs": {
"items": [
"Dr. Sungat Grewal, double board-certified dermatologist and Mohs surgeon",
"Dr. Caren Campbell, board-certified dermatologist",
"Sarah Todd, reporter for STAT News"
],
"ordered": false,
"values": ""
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\n\n\n\u003c/ul>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">",
null,
"\n\n",
null,
"\n\n",
null,
"\u003c/ul>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": [
{
"blockName": "core/list-item",
"attrs": [],
"innerBlocks": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ucsfhealth.org/providers/sungat-grewal\">Dr. Sungat Grewal\u003c/a>, double board-certified dermatologist and Mohs surgeon\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ucsfhealth.org/providers/sungat-grewal\">Dr. Sungat Grewal\u003c/a>, double board-certified dermatologist and Mohs surgeon\u003c/li>\n"
]
},
{
"blockName": "core/list-item",
"attrs": [],
"innerBlocks": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.carencampbellmd.com/?srsltid=AU7gw4XTOrftqgnQy6ysplZ8IdAO4P-TLRwup140ITmchvEhXpO36qrR\">Dr. Caren Campbell\u003c/a>, board-certified dermatologist\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.carencampbellmd.com/?srsltid=AU7gw4XTOrftqgnQy6ysplZ8IdAO4P-TLRwup140ITmchvEhXpO36qrR\">Dr. Caren Campbell\u003c/a>, board-certified dermatologist\u003c/li>\n"
]
},
{
"blockName": "core/list-item",
"attrs": [],
"innerBlocks": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/staff/sarah-todd/\">Sarah Todd\u003c/a>, reporter for \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/staff/sarah-todd/\">Sarah Todd\u003c/a>, reporter for \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
]
}
]
},
{
"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"text": "Further Reading/Listening:",
"level": 2
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/list",
"attrs": {
"items": [
"What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk — Sarah Todd, STAT News",
"FDA advisory panel narrowly rejects compounding of one peptide, backs two others — Lizzy Lawrence and Sarah Todd, STAT News",
"FDA panel backs compounded BPC-157, KPV peptides in win for RFK Jr. — Sarah Todd and Lizzy Lawrence, STAT News",
"What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk — Sarah Todd, STAT News",
"Is Tanmaxxing an Addiction? A Dermatologist and Psychologist Explains — Katie Berohn, ELLE",
"Inside the Weird New World of Peptide Tanning — Savannah Sobrevilla, GQ ",
"Melanotan: The “Barbie drug” tanning peptide, explained — Carly Mallenbaum, Axios",
"Inside the Viral Tanning Peptide That Accidentally Created Vyleesi’s FDA-Approved Low Sex Drive Drug — Sara Kitnick, LA Times Studios",
"The FDA May Reverse a Ban on 14 Injectable Peptides—What That Means For the Beauty Industry — Kara Nesvig, Allure",
"The Skin Cancer Foundation Issues Warning Regarding Melanotan II — Deborah S. Sarnoff, MD, Skin Cancer Foundation"
],
"ordered": false,
"values": ""
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003c/ul>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">",
null,
"\n\n",
null,
"\n\n",
null,
"\n\n",
null,
"\n\n",
null,
"\n\n",
null,
"\n\n",
null,
"\n\n",
null,
"\n\n",
null,
"\n\n",
null,
"\u003c/ul>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": [
{
"blockName": "core/list-item",
"attrs": [],
"innerBlocks": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/04/06/rfk-jr-apparent-contradiction-peptides-vaccines-medical-libertarianism/\">What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/04/06/rfk-jr-apparent-contradiction-peptides-vaccines-medical-libertarianism/\">What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
]
},
{
"blockName": "core/list-item",
"attrs": [],
"innerBlocks": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/07/24/fda-peptide-compounding-panel-backs-epitalon-rejects-emideltide/\">FDA advisory panel narrowly rejects compounding of one peptide, backs two others\u003c/a> — Lizzy Lawrence and Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/07/24/fda-peptide-compounding-panel-backs-epitalon-rejects-emideltide/\">FDA advisory panel narrowly rejects compounding of one peptide, backs two others\u003c/a> — Lizzy Lawrence and Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
]
},
{
"blockName": "core/list-item",
"attrs": [],
"innerBlocks": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/07/23/fda-panel-okays-peptides-compound-pharmacies-bpc-157-kpv/\">FDA panel backs compounded BPC-157, KPV peptides in win for RFK Jr.\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd and Lizzy Lawrence, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/07/23/fda-panel-okays-peptides-compound-pharmacies-bpc-157-kpv/\">FDA panel backs compounded BPC-157, KPV peptides in win for RFK Jr.\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd and Lizzy Lawrence, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
]
},
{
"blockName": "core/list-item",
"attrs": [],
"innerBlocks": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/04/06/rfk-jr-apparent-contradiction-peptides-vaccines-medical-libertarianism/\">What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/04/06/rfk-jr-apparent-contradiction-peptides-vaccines-medical-libertarianism/\">What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
]
},
{
"blockName": "core/list-item",
"attrs": [],
"innerBlocks": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.elle.com/beauty/health-fitness/a73232620/tanmaxxing-trend-explained-interview-2026/\">Is Tanmaxxing an Addiction? A Dermatologist and Psychologist Explains\u003c/a> — Katie Berohn, \u003cem>ELLE\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.elle.com/beauty/health-fitness/a73232620/tanmaxxing-trend-explained-interview-2026/\">Is Tanmaxxing an Addiction? A Dermatologist and Psychologist Explains\u003c/a> — Katie Berohn, \u003cem>ELLE\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
]
},
{
"blockName": "core/list-item",
"attrs": [],
"innerBlocks": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.gq.com/story/inside-the-weird-new-world-of-peptide-tanning\">Inside the Weird New World of Peptide Tanning\u003c/a> — Savannah Sobrevilla, \u003cem>GQ\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.gq.com/story/inside-the-weird-new-world-of-peptide-tanning\">Inside the Weird New World of Peptide Tanning\u003c/a> — Savannah Sobrevilla, \u003cem>GQ\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n"
]
},
{
"blockName": "core/list-item",
"attrs": [],
"innerBlocks": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.axios.com/2026/06/29/barbie-drug-peptide-shot-tan\">Melanotan: The “Barbie drug” tanning peptide, explained\u003c/a> — Carly Mallenbaum, \u003cem>Axios\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.axios.com/2026/06/29/barbie-drug-peptide-shot-tan\">Melanotan: The “Barbie drug” tanning peptide, explained\u003c/a> — Carly Mallenbaum, \u003cem>Axios\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
]
},
{
"blockName": "core/list-item",
"attrs": [],
"innerBlocks": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/live-well/longevity/story/tanning-peptides-melanotan-vyleesi-pt141\">Inside the Viral Tanning Peptide That Accidentally Created Vyleesi’s FDA-Approved Low Sex Drive Drug\u003c/a> — Sara Kitnick, \u003cem>LA Times Studios\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/live-well/longevity/story/tanning-peptides-melanotan-vyleesi-pt141\">Inside the Viral Tanning Peptide That Accidentally Created Vyleesi’s FDA-Approved Low Sex Drive Drug\u003c/a> — Sara Kitnick, \u003cem>LA Times Studios\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
]
},
{
"blockName": "core/list-item",
"attrs": [],
"innerBlocks": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.allure.com/story/fda-peptide-ban-reversal\">The FDA May Reverse a Ban on 14 Injectable Peptides—What That Means For the Beauty Industry\u003c/a> — Kara Nesvig, \u003cem>Allure\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.allure.com/story/fda-peptide-ban-reversal\">The FDA May Reverse a Ban on 14 Injectable Peptides—What That Means For the Beauty Industry\u003c/a> — Kara Nesvig, \u003cem>Allure\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
]
},
{
"blockName": "core/list-item",
"attrs": [],
"innerBlocks": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.skincancer.org/press/the-skin-cancer-foundation-issues-warning-regarding-melanotan-ii/\">The Skin Cancer Foundation Issues Warning Regarding Melanotan II\u003c/a> — Deborah S. Sarnoff, MD, \u003cem>Skin Cancer Foundation\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.skincancer.org/press/the-skin-cancer-foundation-issues-warning-regarding-melanotan-ii/\">The Skin Cancer Foundation Issues Warning Regarding Melanotan II\u003c/a> — Deborah S. Sarnoff, MD, \u003cem>Skin Cancer Foundation\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
]
}
]
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "kqed/ad",
"attrs": {
"adType": "fullwidth"
},
"innerHTML": "",
"innerContent": [],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"text": "Episode Transcript",
"level": 2
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Host, Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Host, Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Can I be honest? I am pretty vain.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Can I be honest? I am pretty vain.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I take my skincare routine very seriously: Prescription-strength azelaic acid in the morning, and prescription-strength tretinoin at night. Lots of sunscreen and moisturizer and barrier creams in between, and every other night, I skip the tretinoin and spend three minutes under a red light mask. If I’m feeling indulgent, I’ll throw in a Korean gel mask and a jade roller. Do those do anything? I honestly can’t tell. But it feels nice! \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>I take my skincare routine very seriously: Prescription-strength azelaic acid in the morning, and prescription-strength tretinoin at night. Lots of sunscreen and moisturizer and barrier creams in between, and every other night, I skip the tretinoin and spend three minutes under a red light mask. If I’m feeling indulgent, I’ll throw in a Korean gel mask and a jade roller. Do those do anything? I honestly can’t tell. But it feels nice! \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I wouldn’t call myself a looksmaxxer, but I do spend a good amount of time on these beautification rituals. And as a woman who exists on the internet, I feel like my For You Page is constantly lobbing beauty trends at me, and like I’m always trying to avoid getting sucked into yet another fad. I have tried so many serums and face masks and supplements before finally settling into what I consider to be a pretty pared down beauty regiment. But the one thing I haven’t tried yet is a peptide. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>I wouldn’t call myself a looksmaxxer, but I do spend a good amount of time on these beautification rituals. And as a woman who exists on the internet, I feel like my For You Page is constantly lobbing beauty trends at me, and like I’m always trying to avoid getting sucked into yet another fad. I have tried so many serums and face masks and supplements before finally settling into what I consider to be a pretty pared down beauty regiment. But the one thing I haven’t tried yet is a peptide. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It seems like everyone is on them. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>It seems like everyone is on them. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clips of influencers raving about peptides]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Speaker 1: This is, in my opinion, the most slept-on peptide on the market today. There’s two main benefits that have been life-changing for me . \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clips of influencers raving about peptides]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Speaker 1: This is, in my opinion, the most slept-on peptide on the market today. There’s two main benefits that have been life-changing for me . \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: You’re telling me there’s a botox alternative that’s easier on your wallet? Whoa! Let’s talk about Snap-8, the peptide that targets wrinkles without the needles. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: You’re telling me there’s a botox alternative that’s easier on your wallet? Whoa! Let’s talk about Snap-8, the peptide that targets wrinkles without the needles. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Peptides are chemical signals that your body naturally makes to regulate all kinds of bodily functions, like digestion and recovery. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Peptides are chemical signals that your body naturally makes to regulate all kinds of bodily functions, like digestion and recovery. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> So peptides are like text messages. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> So peptides are like text messages. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Sungat Grewal is a double board certified dermatologist and skin cancer surgeon. She’s the co-director of Laser Surgery and Cosmetic Dermatology at UCSF. And she’s been keeping an eye on the synthetic peptides people are taking to boost their bodies’ natural processes. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Sungat Grewal is a double board certified dermatologist and skin cancer surgeon. She’s the co-director of Laser Surgery and Cosmetic Dermatology at UCSF. And she’s been keeping an eye on the synthetic peptides people are taking to boost their bodies’ natural processes. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>They’re not necessarily good or bad inherently, but it depends on who’s sending the message, what the message is, and who receives it. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>They’re not necessarily good or bad inherently, but it depends on who’s sending the message, what the message is, and who receives it. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And I’m not just talking about GLP-1s. Peptide stacking is really in right now. Retatrutide and Tesamorelin for weight loss, Ipamorelin for muscle growth, the “Wolverine Stack” of BPC-157 and TB-500 to boost healing after a gym sesh. If you throw in the copper peptide GHK-Cu, you’ve got a “Glow Stack,” the hot girl combo optimized for anti-aging collagen production. It’s a lot, right? \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And I’m not just talking about GLP-1s. Peptide stacking is really in right now. Retatrutide and Tesamorelin for weight loss, Ipamorelin for muscle growth, the “Wolverine Stack” of BPC-157 and TB-500 to boost healing after a gym sesh. If you throw in the copper peptide GHK-Cu, you’ve got a “Glow Stack,” the hot girl combo optimized for anti-aging collagen production. It’s a lot, right? \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some of these compounds are not cleared by the FDA, so the way people get a hold of them is a legal hit or miss. But peptides remain incredibly popular despite the gray market. And there’s one that’s \u003cem>really\u003c/em> blown up this summer: Melanotan II. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Some of these compounds are not cleared by the FDA, so the way people get a hold of them is a legal hit or miss. But peptides remain incredibly popular despite the gray market. And there’s one that’s \u003cem>really\u003c/em> blown up this summer: Melanotan II. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cbr>[Clip from Youtube User @SpaandTell]\u003cbr>Kylie says hi Kim your tan looks great. Thank you! I’ve been using the melanotan II peptide over the last month, and I’ve been going outside, and it’s been working like a charm, so excited. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cbr>[Clip from Youtube User @SpaandTell]\u003cbr>Kylie says hi Kim your tan looks great. Thank you! I’ve been using the melanotan II peptide over the last month, and I’ve been going outside, and it’s been working like a charm, so excited. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>MT-2 for short — also known as “The Barbie peptide” or “the vacation drug.” It makes you tan, skinny, and horny (it’s a libido booster) — with no harmful UV exposure required. But Dr. Grewal says it also comes with legitimately concerning risks. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>MT-2 for short — also known as “The Barbie peptide” or “the vacation drug.” It makes you tan, skinny, and horny (it’s a libido booster) — with no harmful UV exposure required. But Dr. Grewal says it also comes with legitimately concerning risks. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>It’s pretty scary and it’s very sad, you know, when, um, people are chasing aesthetic goals and are being misdirected and exposing themselves to unknown risks or known risks, not only in the moment, but for future and forever forward, right? Some of these impacts have long-lasting effects.\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re diving into the world of peptides: the dangers of tanmaxxing despite the influencer promotion, and RFK Jr’s crusade to reverse the peptide bans in the U.S. What does the peptide craze say about Americans’ relationship with health and risk? Let’s jump in. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>It’s pretty scary and it’s very sad, you know, when, um, people are chasing aesthetic goals and are being misdirected and exposing themselves to unknown risks or known risks, not only in the moment, but for future and forever forward, right? Some of these impacts have long-lasting effects.\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re diving into the world of peptides: the dangers of tanmaxxing despite the influencer promotion, and RFK Jr’s crusade to reverse the peptide bans in the U.S. What does the peptide craze say about Americans’ relationship with health and risk? Let’s jump in. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’re starting with a new tab. What is melanotan?\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>We’re starting with a new tab. What is melanotan?\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m part of a few weddings this year, and I wanted to look a little more sunkissed. But I’m inside like, all the time, and I have no interest in tanning beds because I don’t want to wrinkle. Again, vain! Sorry! So I started looking into self tanners. I looked up a few beauty influencers who reviewed tanning lotions … and that’s when my feed was inundated with people\u003cs> \u003c/s>recommending this miracle drug: MT-2.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>I’m part of a few weddings this year, and I wanted to look a little more sunkissed. But I’m inside like, all the time, and I have no interest in tanning beds because I don’t want to wrinkle. Again, vain! Sorry! So I started looking into self tanners. I looked up a few beauty influencers who reviewed tanning lotions … and that’s when my feed was inundated with people\u003cs> \u003c/s>recommending this miracle drug: MT-2.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @toxdaddy]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @toxdaddy]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Oh man, I’m super excited. I just got Melanotan 2 this morning and I’m really excited to try it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Oh man, I’m super excited. I just got Melanotan 2 this morning and I’m really excited to try it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @carlysnaxwell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I started taking MT2. I’m tan. I haven’t gone bed tanning in a while… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @carlysnaxwell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I started taking MT2. I’m tan. I haven’t gone bed tanning in a while… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @itsdevync]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I’m now at two months of taking it. I’m obsessed. My tan is only getting better … \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @itsdevync]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I’m now at two months of taking it. I’m obsessed. My tan is only getting better … \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Youtube user@SpaandTell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I am crazy impressed by this – by this, I mean, the Melanotan 2 peptide.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Youtube user@SpaandTell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I am crazy impressed by this – by this, I mean, the Melanotan 2 peptide.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> And it’s not just the tan that makes it so appealing. Dr. Grewal says Melanotan II also has some specific side effects…\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> And it’s not just the tan that makes it so appealing. Dr. Grewal says Melanotan II also has some specific side effects…\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong> It’s marketed as the Barbie peptide because tanning might be the effect that you’re shopping for, but it’s not the only effect and some of them can translate into, um, increased libido or decreased appetite. \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong> It’s marketed as the Barbie peptide because tanning might be the effect that you’re shopping for, but it’s not the only effect and some of them can translate into, um, increased libido or decreased appetite. \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>How does it do all that? Well, let’s talk about how peptides work. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>How does it do all that? Well, let’s talk about how peptides work. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Again, peptides are the chemical signals for your body to perform certain functions. Your body has tons of receptors, and peptides can target specific ones, almost like sending a text to a specific phone number. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Again, peptides are the chemical signals for your body to perform certain functions. Your body has tons of receptors, and peptides can target specific ones, almost like sending a text to a specific phone number. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>You can think about two kinds, like natural versus synthetic. So our body makes peptides naturally. Some common examples would be like insulin or GLP-1. And synthetically, you know, we can create, uh, synthetic peptides to mimic those that are made naturally in the body to get a specific effect\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>You can think about two kinds, like natural versus synthetic. So our body makes peptides naturally. Some common examples would be like insulin or GLP-1. And synthetically, you know, we can create, uh, synthetic peptides to mimic those that are made naturally in the body to get a specific effect\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Melanotan I and Melanotan II are synthetic peptides that…\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Melanotan I and Melanotan II are synthetic peptides that…\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> …mimic a naturally occurring peptide in the body called alpha-MSH or melanocyte-stimulating hormone. And so there are receptors that are in numerous places in the body called melanocortin receptors that can respond to this signal or chain of events.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> …mimic a naturally occurring peptide in the body called alpha-MSH or melanocyte-stimulating hormone. And so there are receptors that are in numerous places in the body called melanocortin receptors that can respond to this signal or chain of events.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are five types of melanocortin receptors in the body. The first regulates hair and skin pigmentation, and it’s what triggers tans. And it’s also really important to understand what getting tan \u003cem>really\u003c/em> means for your body. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are five types of melanocortin receptors in the body. The first regulates hair and skin pigmentation, and it’s what triggers tans. And it’s also really important to understand what getting tan \u003cem>really\u003c/em> means for your body. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> It’s literally your nucleus and your cell saying, “Oh my God, save my DNA.” \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> It’s literally your nucleus and your cell saying, “Oh my God, save my DNA.” \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung : \u003c/strong>This is Dr. Caren Campbell, a board certified dermatologist who practices medical, surgical, and cosmetic dermatology in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung : \u003c/strong>This is Dr. Caren Campbell, a board certified dermatologist who practices medical, surgical, and cosmetic dermatology in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell: \u003c/strong>You know, it’s putting an umbrella over it. Your cell is saying, like, “Help me. Protect my DNA so I don’t mutate and cause cancer.”\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell: \u003c/strong>You know, it’s putting an umbrella over it. Your cell is saying, like, “Help me. Protect my DNA so I don’t mutate and cause cancer.”\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That little umbrella is called eumelanin, and it produces brown and black pigments in the body. It’s what causes darker colors in skin, eyes, and hair. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That little umbrella is called eumelanin, and it produces brown and black pigments in the body. It’s what causes darker colors in skin, eyes, and hair. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So Melanotan I sends a text to that first melanocortin receptor, which tells your cells to pop their little umbrellas up to protect their DNA … which is what triggers a tan, without actual UV exposure. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>So Melanotan I sends a text to that first melanocortin receptor, which tells your cells to pop their little umbrellas up to protect their DNA … which is what triggers a tan, without actual UV exposure. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Melanotan I is actually FDA-approved for a very, very specific, very rare skin condition that causes extreme sensitivity to light.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Melanotan I is actually FDA-approved for a very, very specific, very rare skin condition that causes extreme sensitivity to light.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Erythropoietic protoporphyria\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Erythropoietic protoporphyria\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Or EPP for short. It’s actually so rare that Dr. Grewal has never seen the condition in her medical career. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Or EPP for short. It’s actually so rare that Dr. Grewal has never seen the condition in her medical career. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Its incidence has been estimated at two to five cases per million people. You would know if you had this because you have symptoms when you’re a young child. Children have very severe, painful, uh, photosensitivity after exposure to sunlight or even visible light, which can come from even indoor lights, laptop screens.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Its incidence has been estimated at two to five cases per million people. You would know if you had this because you have symptoms when you’re a young child. Children have very severe, painful, uh, photosensitivity after exposure to sunlight or even visible light, which can come from even indoor lights, laptop screens.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>EPP causes extreme swelling, burning, and pain when exposed to certain light. So the FDA approved a prescription implant of Melanotan I for people with EPP, which stimulates their bodies to produce eumelanin. These little cell umbrellas absorb that light before it can damage their skin. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>EPP causes extreme swelling, burning, and pain when exposed to certain light. So the FDA approved a prescription implant of Melanotan I for people with EPP, which stimulates their bodies to produce eumelanin. These little cell umbrellas absorb that light before it can damage their skin. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, Melanotan II, which is the hot one right now, sends a group text to that first receptor. But remember, there are \u003cem>5\u003c/em> melanocortin receptors in the body. So it’s also sending that text to receptors three, four, and five as well. And these aren’t just in the skin. They’re all over the body, including in the central nervous system, which is why MT-2 can cause appetite suppression and boost libido. And because these receptors are all over the body, MT-2 can also cause unpredictable systemic changes … with unpleasant and even dangerous symptoms. Here’s Dr. Campbell again. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Now, Melanotan II, which is the hot one right now, sends a group text to that first receptor. But remember, there are \u003cem>5\u003c/em> melanocortin receptors in the body. So it’s also sending that text to receptors three, four, and five as well. And these aren’t just in the skin. They’re all over the body, including in the central nervous system, which is why MT-2 can cause appetite suppression and boost libido. And because these receptors are all over the body, MT-2 can also cause unpredictable systemic changes … with unpleasant and even dangerous symptoms. Here’s Dr. Campbell again. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> In men, that can lead to potentially what’s called priapism, which is where you have an erection that, you know, doesn’t go away, and there was a, a case report of someone needing to have that surgically drained in the emergency room.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> In men, that can lead to potentially what’s called priapism, which is where you have an erection that, you know, doesn’t go away, and there was a, a case report of someone needing to have that surgically drained in the emergency room.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Um, it, it also can cause nausea and vomiting. It’s also stimulates our sympathetic nervous system, which you can think about that like your fight or flight. So anything you needed to, like, run away from a predator, it does. So it dilates your pupils so you can see better.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Um, it, it also can cause nausea and vomiting. It’s also stimulates our sympathetic nervous system, which you can think about that like your fight or flight. So anything you needed to, like, run away from a predator, it does. So it dilates your pupils so you can see better.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It causes, you know, increased heart rate so you can get running. It causes hypertension ’cause it constricts your blood vessels. Um, so that fight or flight response can be elevated and you can get what’s called rhabdomyolysis, which is where you get muscle breakdown, and it can be very dangerous, um, life-threatening.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>It causes, you know, increased heart rate so you can get running. It causes hypertension ’cause it constricts your blood vessels. Um, so that fight or flight response can be elevated and you can get what’s called rhabdomyolysis, which is where you get muscle breakdown, and it can be very dangerous, um, life-threatening.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So those side effects are pretty rough. But Dr. Grewal says there’s also this main one … \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So those side effects are pretty rough. But Dr. Grewal says there’s also this main one … \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> We have seen reports of patients like breaking out in moles, for example, and breaking out in atypical or what we call funky looking moles, right? \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> We have seen reports of patients like breaking out in moles, for example, and breaking out in atypical or what we call funky looking moles, right? \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @\u003c/em>cablequeencourt]\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Let’s count how many moles we have on our face since taking MT2. So this one’s new. This is new …Yeah, um, and that’s not including what’s going on on my body….\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @\u003c/em>cablequeencourt]\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Let’s count how many moles we have on our face since taking MT2. So this one’s new. This is new …Yeah, um, and that’s not including what’s going on on my body….\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Moles are clusters of melanocytes, the skin cells that make pigment. Most are totally benign. But like Dr. Grewal said, Melanotan moles are … funky.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Moles are clusters of melanocytes, the skin cells that make pigment. Most are totally benign. But like Dr. Grewal said, Melanotan moles are … funky.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Because it’s stimulating the same pathway that can eventually lead to melanoma. And again, we don’t have causation yet, but we do not have long-term data. And so why would you subject yourself to that risk when you can use other methods to tan the skin safely without breaking out in moles? And the moles are not just darker, the moles, like, look concerning. They, they often have atypical features.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Because it’s stimulating the same pathway that can eventually lead to melanoma. And again, we don’t have causation yet, but we do not have long-term data. And so why would you subject yourself to that risk when you can use other methods to tan the skin safely without breaking out in moles? And the moles are not just darker, the moles, like, look concerning. They, they often have atypical features.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Those little cell umbrellas can only protect so much. And if you’re exposing them to harmful UV rays over and over again, they can mutate and become cancerous. One of the ways dermatologists evaluate moles for cancer is by checking if they’ve evolved — if they’re getting bigger, darker, and wonkier. This isn’t as much of a concern for patients who are prescribed MT-1 for EPP, since they’re generally not engaging in risky behavior that causes additional UV damage — like intentionally tanning. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Those little cell umbrellas can only protect so much. And if you’re exposing them to harmful UV rays over and over again, they can mutate and become cancerous. One of the ways dermatologists evaluate moles for cancer is by checking if they’ve evolved — if they’re getting bigger, darker, and wonkier. This isn’t as much of a concern for patients who are prescribed MT-1 for EPP, since they’re generally not engaging in risky behavior that causes additional UV damage — like intentionally tanning. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But when it comes to the tanmaxxers … \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>But when it comes to the tanmaxxers … \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @sooshbrah]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>This is 2021, 2022, I was doing 500 micrograms of Melanotan and I was jumping in the tanning bed for 15 minutes. I literally changed race in like three sessions. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @sooshbrah]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>This is 2021, 2022, I was doing 500 micrograms of Melanotan and I was jumping in the tanning bed for 15 minutes. I literally changed race in like three sessions. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> I can’t say for certain that, you know, melanotan causes melanoma. But we do know based on what are, again, called case [00:23:00] reports, where we don’t have large numbers, but we have good evidence of people who’ve started melanotan and then as soon as two weeks noticed almost immediate darkening and irregularity of their moles.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> I can’t say for certain that, you know, melanotan causes melanoma. But we do know based on what are, again, called case [00:23:00] reports, where we don’t have large numbers, but we have good evidence of people who’ve started melanotan and then as soon as two weeks noticed almost immediate darkening and irregularity of their moles.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Campbell said that in this case report, one of the patients had used tanning beds and melanotan at the same time, and had five new moles biopsied. All five were cancerous. And there aren’t many clinical studies on the effects of long-term melanotan use, in a broad population of users who don’t have EPP. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Campbell said that in this case report, one of the patients had used tanning beds and melanotan at the same time, and had five new moles biopsied. All five were cancerous. And there aren’t many clinical studies on the effects of long-term melanotan use, in a broad population of users who don’t have EPP. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Melanotan II was actually developed in the late 80s to early 90s, and in the early 2000s, researchers began testing it to treat sexual dysfunction. But Dr. Grewal says there’s a reason it never made it to market. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Melanotan II was actually developed in the late 80s to early 90s, and in the early 2000s, researchers began testing it to treat sexual dysfunction. But Dr. Grewal says there’s a reason it never made it to market. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Usually when a peptide or any product is on its way to becoming a drug, it goes through rigorous testing, and pharmaceuticals would love to sell it because they’re gonna profit immensely. So usually when it drops off the track, it’s because either it’s not providing the results that they’re hoping for or the safety is not promising\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Usually when a peptide or any product is on its way to becoming a drug, it goes through rigorous testing, and pharmaceuticals would love to sell it because they’re gonna profit immensely. So usually when it drops off the track, it’s because either it’s not providing the results that they’re hoping for or the safety is not promising\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Despite that, both MT-1 and MT-2 are still wildly popular on the gray market, as both a nasal spray and an injectable. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Despite that, both MT-1 and MT-2 are still wildly popular on the gray market, as both a nasal spray and an injectable. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately I am not surprised because, you know, the story of wanting tanner skin is a story we’ve heard before. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately I am not surprised because, you know, the story of wanting tanner skin is a story we’ve heard before. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Um, you know, first it was tanning beds, now we know how dangerous those are in terms of increasing melanoma risk even with one use, you know, before the age of 30. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Um, you know, first it was tanning beds, now we know how dangerous those are in terms of increasing melanoma risk even with one use, you know, before the age of 30. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And as is the case with many unregulated, technically illegal peptides, vendors can sell them around the US thanks to a handy loophole: the “Research Use Only” pathway. Essentially saying, this product legally isn’t for human consumption, with no quality guarantee or regulatory oversight. But there’s really nothing that can stop buyers from using it on themselves. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And as is the case with many unregulated, technically illegal peptides, vendors can sell them around the US thanks to a handy loophole: the “Research Use Only” pathway. Essentially saying, this product legally isn’t for human consumption, with no quality guarantee or regulatory oversight. But there’s really nothing that can stop buyers from using it on themselves. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> You have to remember that when it’s not FDA regulated, you really have no idea what’s in the bottle. What you’re getting in your bottle is like a crapshoot. So, you know, and historically we’ve seen issues with, um, sterility of products, contamination with unregulated products, and the concentration and the purity is also unknown.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> You have to remember that when it’s not FDA regulated, you really have no idea what’s in the bottle. What you’re getting in your bottle is like a crapshoot. So, you know, and historically we’ve seen issues with, um, sterility of products, contamination with unregulated products, and the concentration and the purity is also unknown.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So that alone is like a huge reason why I would never advise anyone to take a non FDA-approved medication, whether or not it’s a peptide, you know?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>So that alone is like a huge reason why I would never advise anyone to take a non FDA-approved medication, whether or not it’s a peptide, you know?\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So knowing all of these risks, both healthwise and lookswise, why are people bent on taking Melanotan? And this is just one of many unregulated, very popular peptides! What’s driving the peptide boom in spite of medical experts’ warnings?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So knowing all of these risks, both healthwise and lookswise, why are people bent on taking Melanotan? And this is just one of many unregulated, very popular peptides! What’s driving the peptide boom in spite of medical experts’ warnings?\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That is a whole new tab… for after this quick break. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>That is a whole new tab… for after this quick break. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you! To become a member and support the show, go to donate dot kqed dot org slash podcasts. Ok, after the break: we’re diving into medical libertarianism. Stick around.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you! To become a member and support the show, go to donate dot kqed dot org slash podcasts. Ok, after the break: we’re diving into medical libertarianism. Stick around.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome back! Time to open a new tab. Peptides and medical libertarianism. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome back! Time to open a new tab. Peptides and medical libertarianism. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>RFK Jr, the vaccine denier and guy in charge of our entire country’s health department, is also a pep pusher. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>RFK Jr, the vaccine denier and guy in charge of our entire country’s health department, is also a pep pusher. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Yeah I mean I’m a big fan of peptides. I’ve used them myself. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Yeah I mean I’m a big fan of peptides. I’ve used them myself. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was RFK Jr on Joe Rogan’s podcast earlier this year, where he spoke about the proliferation of unregulated peptides. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was RFK Jr on Joe Rogan’s podcast earlier this year, where he spoke about the proliferation of unregulated peptides. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>A black market came out and the black market is run by companies that say they’re making the peptides for animal use or research purposes. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>A black market came out and the black market is run by companies that say they’re making the peptides for animal use or research purposes. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So basically when you buy peptides online you don’t have any guarantees about the safety and the quality of what you’re buying. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So basically when you buy peptides online you don’t have any guarantees about the safety and the quality of what you’re buying. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s Sarah Todd, a reporter at STAT News. She covers the business of health, which means she’s also been following the gray market peptide industry. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s Sarah Todd, a reporter at STAT News. She covers the business of health, which means she’s also been following the gray market peptide industry. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> New York Magazine had a bunch of peptides tested and found that about a third of them were mislabeled or under or overdosed or contaminated by bacteria. So those are all some of the potential health risks that you run into when you’re getting them off the gray and black market.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> New York Magazine had a bunch of peptides tested and found that about a third of them were mislabeled or under or overdosed or contaminated by bacteria. So those are all some of the potential health risks that you run into when you’re getting them off the gray and black market.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But that hasn’t diminished people’s appetite for peptides. Sarah says this all falls in line with a concept called “medical libertarianism” — the idea that we should be allowed to do whatever we want with our bodies regardless of what the government or medical establishment says.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But that hasn’t diminished people’s appetite for peptides. Sarah says this all falls in line with a concept called “medical libertarianism” — the idea that we should be allowed to do whatever we want with our bodies regardless of what the government or medical establishment says.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that extends to taking drugs like peptides that don’t have a lot of data behind them when it comes to their impacts on humans, either their benefits or their potential risks. But the idea with medical libertarianism is, like, that’s my choice, and if I’m willing to put my body on the line for the hopeful benefits that I can get, then I should be able to do so.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that extends to taking drugs like peptides that don’t have a lot of data behind them when it comes to their impacts on humans, either their benefits or their potential risks. But the idea with medical libertarianism is, like, that’s my choice, and if I’m willing to put my body on the line for the hopeful benefits that I can get, then I should be able to do so.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s a very American mindset. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s a very American mindset. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> It really goes along with this sort of all-American idea that we can control our own destinies and make our own choices, right? And a sort of suspicion about the government’s role in overseeing people’s lives, a desire to, you know, ward off the idea of the nanny state and the idea that people should be able to chase their own pursuit of happiness and the American dream.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> It really goes along with this sort of all-American idea that we can control our own destinies and make our own choices, right? And a sort of suspicion about the government’s role in overseeing people’s lives, a desire to, you know, ward off the idea of the nanny state and the idea that people should be able to chase their own pursuit of happiness and the American dream.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And if that includes self-optimizing your body and your health, then that’s something that people should be allowed to do, would be the argument that these people are making.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And if that includes self-optimizing your body and your health, then that’s something that people should be allowed to do, would be the argument that these people are making.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Americans have always had this attitude about health. In the 1970s, there was a huge backlash from the public when the government tried to regulate vitamin and supplement industries…\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Americans have always had this attitude about health. In the 1970s, there was a huge backlash from the public when the government tried to regulate vitamin and supplement industries…\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People wrote in and said, “Don’t take my vitamins away, “ and we wound up with the situation that we have today, where they’re still many people would argue, uh, largely unregulated or very under-regulated. I think that people really wanted to hold on to these kinds of products. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People wrote in and said, “Don’t take my vitamins away, “ and we wound up with the situation that we have today, where they’re still many people would argue, uh, largely unregulated or very under-regulated. I think that people really wanted to hold on to these kinds of products. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There have been ebbs and flows to medical libertarianism throughout modern American history. And then the COVID 19 pandemic hit.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There have been ebbs and flows to medical libertarianism throughout modern American history. And then the COVID 19 pandemic hit.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People started self-experimenting with all kinds of things, like everything from ivermectin, which you m- may remember, to some sort of herbal medicines.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People started self-experimenting with all kinds of things, like everything from ivermectin, which you m- may remember, to some sort of herbal medicines.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> On one hand, you had a lot of interest in sort of like experimentation with drugs to see what you could do to improve your own health, protect yourself potentially from COVID in various ways. We also saw a big boom in the rise of social media health influencers, health and wellness influencers during this time as well, and I think that has played a huge role.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> On one hand, you had a lot of interest in sort of like experimentation with drugs to see what you could do to improve your own health, protect yourself potentially from COVID in various ways. We also saw a big boom in the rise of social media health influencers, health and wellness influencers during this time as well, and I think that has played a huge role.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Many of the sort of man-fluencers like Joe Rogan and, and Gary Brecka and Andrew Huberman were already popular pre-pandemic, but sort of like became even more so, gained huge followings during, and I think that that’s had a lot to do with the sort of rising awareness of peptides and interest in trying them.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Many of the sort of man-fluencers like Joe Rogan and, and Gary Brecka and Andrew Huberman were already popular pre-pandemic, but sort of like became even more so, gained huge followings during, and I think that that’s had a lot to do with the sort of rising awareness of peptides and interest in trying them.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>People started taking this “folk pharmacology” approach to medicine. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>People started taking this “folk pharmacology” approach to medicine. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So that term folk pharmacology was mentioned by a researcher I spoke with for a story.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So that term folk pharmacology was mentioned by a researcher I spoke with for a story.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>His name is Luke Turnock, and he talked about how first it sort of started, uh, with peptides in the gym, with bodybuilders and powerlifters sort of sharing, like, “Oh, this, this drug is really helping me recover from this industry. This drug is making me stronger.” But he applies that to the way that people talk about peptides in online spaces and forums as well, where people are generally a lot more likely to believe somebody else on a Reddit forum than they might be to listen to a researcher who’s telling them there’s not enough data to support taking these drugs.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>His name is Luke Turnock, and he talked about how first it sort of started, uh, with peptides in the gym, with bodybuilders and powerlifters sort of sharing, like, “Oh, this, this drug is really helping me recover from this industry. This drug is making me stronger.” But he applies that to the way that people talk about peptides in online spaces and forums as well, where people are generally a lot more likely to believe somebody else on a Reddit forum than they might be to listen to a researcher who’s telling them there’s not enough data to support taking these drugs.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think it, it has to do with some of the decline of trust in science, and then it also has to do with the sort of, like, just stock that we put in recommendations from other people who we perceive as regular people, whether that’s, like, you know, somebody telling us, like, “Oh, I love this vacuum,” or in this case, “I love my Wolverine stack,” you know?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>I think it, it has to do with some of the decline of trust in science, and then it also has to do with the sort of, like, just stock that we put in recommendations from other people who we perceive as regular people, whether that’s, like, you know, somebody telling us, like, “Oh, I love this vacuum,” or in this case, “I love my Wolverine stack,” you know?\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Make American Healthy Again movement is also pretty staunchly anti-vaccine. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Make American Healthy Again movement is also pretty staunchly anti-vaccine. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When I first started thinking about this, I was like, “This seems like a huge contradiction.” I didn’t understand why the MAHA movement would be so skeptical toward vaccines and yet really welcoming toward peptides. But I think it comes back to what we were talking about with medical libertarianism.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When I first started thinking about this, I was like, “This seems like a huge contradiction.” I didn’t understand why the MAHA movement would be so skeptical toward vaccines and yet really welcoming toward peptides. But I think it comes back to what we were talking about with medical libertarianism.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A lot of the MAHA people don’t necessarily want nobody to get vaccines. They say they are more wary of certain vaccine mandates. So there the idea again is like, “Don’t tell me what to do with my own body. It should be my choice whether or not I take it.” Peptides, again, they’re saying they don’t want everybody to have to take peptides.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>A lot of the MAHA people don’t necessarily want nobody to get vaccines. They say they are more wary of certain vaccine mandates. So there the idea again is like, “Don’t tell me what to do with my own body. It should be my choice whether or not I take it.” Peptides, again, they’re saying they don’t want everybody to have to take peptides.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They just wanna be able to take peptides if they want to. So that’s where it all sort of begins to make sense in an overall worldview.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>They just wanna be able to take peptides if they want to. So that’s where it all sort of begins to make sense in an overall worldview.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this brand of medical libertarianism is applied pretty inconsistently. RFK Jr’s MAHA agenda is actively restricting access to trans healthcare, birth control, and abortion — issues that revolve around bodily autonomy. But when it comes to peptides? They believe the government should be hands-off. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this brand of medical libertarianism is applied pretty inconsistently. RFK Jr’s MAHA agenda is actively restricting access to trans healthcare, birth control, and abortion — issues that revolve around bodily autonomy. But when it comes to peptides? They believe the government should be hands-off. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It goes back to a Biden-era decision.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>It goes back to a Biden-era decision.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So back in 2023, the Biden administration moved a bunch of peptides into a different category. That meant that compounding pharmacies could no longer produce them, and their reasons were basically, you know, what we’ve been talking about the typical warnings that we get from the medical community, that these drugs haven’t been studied enough to be able to say definitively that they are either going to do what they promise they’ll do or that they won’t cause some other big problem like cancer as well.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So back in 2023, the Biden administration moved a bunch of peptides into a different category. That meant that compounding pharmacies could no longer produce them, and their reasons were basically, you know, what we’ve been talking about the typical warnings that we get from the medical community, that these drugs haven’t been studied enough to be able to say definitively that they are either going to do what they promise they’ll do or that they won’t cause some other big problem like cancer as well.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So that was the reason for moving over the classification. Now what Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is looking to do is to reclassify some of those peptides so the compounding pharmacies can indeed begin producing them again.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>So that was the reason for moving over the classification. Now what Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is looking to do is to reclassify some of those peptides so the compounding pharmacies can indeed begin producing them again.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Which means that they can be legally produced in the US, under \u003cem>some\u003c/em> regulatory oversight — unlike the facilities that are producing gray market peptides now. Compounding pharmacies at least have to be licensed and routinely inspected through state pharmacy boards. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Which means that they can be legally produced in the US, under \u003cem>some\u003c/em> regulatory oversight — unlike the facilities that are producing gray market peptides now. Compounding pharmacies at least have to be licensed and routinely inspected through state pharmacy boards. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>RFK JR. has been on this crusade to get the FDA to lift this Biden-era peptide ban — which he talked about on that same Joe Rogan podcast episode.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>RFK JR. has been on this crusade to get the FDA to lift this Biden-era peptide ban — which he talked about on that same Joe Rogan podcast episode.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> He basically said that he is a fan of peptides. He wants to make them more accessible via compounding pharmacies. Uh, but the reason he says is not necessarily he understands that not all the science and data is out there on peptides yet, but he says that it’s gonna be safer for people to get them from compounding pharmacies than to get them off the gray and black market, and that’s sort of his logic for, for why it would make sense to, to reclassify them.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> He basically said that he is a fan of peptides. He wants to make them more accessible via compounding pharmacies. Uh, but the reason he says is not necessarily he understands that not all the science and data is out there on peptides yet, but he says that it’s gonna be safer for people to get them from compounding pharmacies than to get them off the gray and black market, and that’s sort of his logic for, for why it would make sense to, to reclassify them.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And that is a new tab. Are peptides legal now? \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And that is a new tab. Are peptides legal now? \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>I\u003c/strong>t’s complicated. We’re gonna start by explaining different kinds of pharmacies. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>I\u003c/strong>t’s complicated. We’re gonna start by explaining different kinds of pharmacies. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, typical pharmacies make and dispense FDA-approved drugs. There are the retail pharmacies that sell over-the-counter allergy meds or fill your prescriptions for blood pressure pills. There are specialty pharmacies that manage medications for very rare, highly complex health conditions, which might require stricter protocols for handling, storing, and administering meds. Both of these types of pharmacies mainly deal with medications that have already been manufactured. The pharmacy makes sure they’re giving patients the right dosage and right amount of pre-made meds. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>So, typical pharmacies make and dispense FDA-approved drugs. There are the retail pharmacies that sell over-the-counter allergy meds or fill your prescriptions for blood pressure pills. There are specialty pharmacies that manage medications for very rare, highly complex health conditions, which might require stricter protocols for handling, storing, and administering meds. Both of these types of pharmacies mainly deal with medications that have already been manufactured. The pharmacy makes sure they’re giving patients the right dosage and right amount of pre-made meds. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, compounding pharmacies mix the medications themselves. There are lots of reasons why people use them: maybe the commercial version of the drug includes ingredients they’re allergic to, or maybe they need a cream, not a gel. Maybe the only way to get the right dosage is by getting a custom mix. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Now, compounding pharmacies mix the medications themselves. There are lots of reasons why people use them: maybe the commercial version of the drug includes ingredients they’re allergic to, or maybe they need a cream, not a gel. Maybe the only way to get the right dosage is by getting a custom mix. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Sometimes there are drug shortages, and compounding pharmacies can be an alternative as well then because they can custom make a particular drug that maybe, uh, isn’t available at the moment. It might also be, as was the case with GLP-1 weight loss drugs, uh, compounding pharmacies were making a lot of, uh, GLP-1 drugs that were alternatives to the more expensive ones, like Ozempic and Wegovy, and the idea h- here was, like, you sacrifice the sort of name brand, uh, aspect, but then you, you could get the, the drugs that would have, hopefully, the same effects for cheaper.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Sometimes there are drug shortages, and compounding pharmacies can be an alternative as well then because they can custom make a particular drug that maybe, uh, isn’t available at the moment. It might also be, as was the case with GLP-1 weight loss drugs, uh, compounding pharmacies were making a lot of, uh, GLP-1 drugs that were alternatives to the more expensive ones, like Ozempic and Wegovy, and the idea h- here was, like, you sacrifice the sort of name brand, uh, aspect, but then you, you could get the, the drugs that would have, hopefully, the same effects for cheaper.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So that’s another reason why people might turn to compounding pharmacies as well.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>So that’s another reason why people might turn to compounding pharmacies as well.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In recent years, compounding pharmacies have become wildly lucrative, thanks to the rise of for-profit telehealth. A lot of telehealth companies have in-house compounding pharmacies, and they sell all kinds of prescription meds: personalized topical creams with Tretinoin and Niacinamide for acne, chewable tablets of Finasteride and Minoxidil for hair loss, low-dose Vardenafil for erectile dysfunction, custom-mixed hormone replacement suppositories for menopause, and now, compounded GLP-1s for weight loss. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In recent years, compounding pharmacies have become wildly lucrative, thanks to the rise of for-profit telehealth. A lot of telehealth companies have in-house compounding pharmacies, and they sell all kinds of prescription meds: personalized topical creams with Tretinoin and Niacinamide for acne, chewable tablets of Finasteride and Minoxidil for hair loss, low-dose Vardenafil for erectile dysfunction, custom-mixed hormone replacement suppositories for menopause, and now, compounded GLP-1s for weight loss. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Compounding pharmacies can legally make anything … as long the ingredients they’re working are good with the FDA. The final product doesn’t have to be FDA-approved.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Compounding pharmacies can legally make anything … as long the ingredients they’re working are good with the FDA. The final product doesn’t have to be FDA-approved.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The drugs that a compounding pharmacy makes do not necessarily have to have been authorized by the FDA. Um, as long as, you know, they have a prescription for that drug from a healthcare provider, they will, will produce the drugs. And then there’s certain, uh, substances that they’re not allowed to make, such as the peptides that are currently on the 503B substances list. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The drugs that a compounding pharmacy makes do not necessarily have to have been authorized by the FDA. Um, as long as, you know, they have a prescription for that drug from a healthcare provider, they will, will produce the drugs. And then there’s certain, uh, substances that they’re not allowed to make, such as the peptides that are currently on the 503B substances list. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are 19 peptides on that 503B substances list, including Melanotan II. Earlier this year, the FDA announced that they were going to consider reclassifying \u003cem>some\u003c/em> of those banned peptides. This is not the same as FDA approval. They haven’t gone through clinical trials that guarantee safety or efficacy, and the FDA doesn’t verify the quality before they hit the market. But if they are reclassified, that means that compounding pharmacies are allowed to make and distribute medications that contain them. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are 19 peptides on that 503B substances list, including Melanotan II. Earlier this year, the FDA announced that they were going to consider reclassifying \u003cem>some\u003c/em> of those banned peptides. This is not the same as FDA approval. They haven’t gone through clinical trials that guarantee safety or efficacy, and the FDA doesn’t verify the quality before they hit the market. But if they are reclassified, that means that compounding pharmacies are allowed to make and distribute medications that contain them. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The argument that was probably most common from the people on the side of making peptides more accessible via compounding pharmacies was that it’s true that we don’t have all the data yet, and we do need more of it. However, we really don’t want people getting these drugs off the gray and black market because of the other health risks, you know, the risks of contamination, the risk of mislabeled drugs where you think that you’re getting one thing, you’re actually getting something else. And they basically said patients are demanding these drugs and we should make sure that if they’re going to take them, they’re taking it the safest way they can.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The argument that was probably most common from the people on the side of making peptides more accessible via compounding pharmacies was that it’s true that we don’t have all the data yet, and we do need more of it. However, we really don’t want people getting these drugs off the gray and black market because of the other health risks, you know, the risks of contamination, the risk of mislabeled drugs where you think that you’re getting one thing, you’re actually getting something else. And they basically said patients are demanding these drugs and we should make sure that if they’re going to take them, they’re taking it the safest way they can.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In other words, it’s better to have Americans sourcing their peptides from regulated facilities, rather than overseas labs that may not be held to the same standards of sterility and quality.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In other words, it’s better to have Americans sourcing their peptides from regulated facilities, rather than overseas labs that may not be held to the same standards of sterility and quality.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In July, an FDA advisory panel met to discuss whether or not to recommend reclassification for seven peptides.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>In July, an FDA advisory panel met to discuss whether or not to recommend reclassification for seven peptides.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The advisory panel itself was really controversial. So this is a group of people who aren’t members of the FDA themselves, and the FDA doesn’t have to follow their recommendations, but typically, their recommendations carry a lot of weight, and typically, an advisory panel is made up of doctors, researchers, other experts in their field.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The advisory panel itself was really controversial. So this is a group of people who aren’t members of the FDA themselves, and the FDA doesn’t have to follow their recommendations, but typically, their recommendations carry a lot of weight, and typically, an advisory panel is made up of doctors, researchers, other experts in their field.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In this case the people who were appointed to the panel, a lot of them were people who had some sort of potential conflict of interest or stake in the outcome of the decision on peptides, people who are prescribing peptides themselves, people who are you know, affiliated with compounding pharmacies in some way.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>In this case the people who were appointed to the panel, a lot of them were people who had some sort of potential conflict of interest or stake in the outcome of the decision on peptides, people who are prescribing peptides themselves, people who are you know, affiliated with compounding pharmacies in some way.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So that immediately raised a lot of red flags for critics who said, “How can we trust the advice of an advisory panel if it’s people who would potentially stand to profit from what the outcome is?”\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>So that immediately raised a lot of red flags for critics who said, “How can we trust the advice of an advisory panel if it’s people who would potentially stand to profit from what the outcome is?”\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The pro-peptide crowd on the panel pointed out that patients are demanding these drugs, and that \u003cem>some \u003c/em>regulatory oversight is better than continuing to allow Americans to get their peptides from sketchy overseas labs. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The pro-peptide crowd on the panel pointed out that patients are demanding these drugs, and that \u003cem>some \u003c/em>regulatory oversight is better than continuing to allow Americans to get their peptides from sketchy overseas labs. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>Then the counterargument from the medical experts is basically that there, again, simply isn’t enough human data on these drugs. There’s a lot of concern about what it would mean to make it easier for people to take these drugs that are indeed in high demand but that we simply don’t know what kinds of short or long-term health effects they might have.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>Then the counterargument from the medical experts is basically that there, again, simply isn’t enough human data on these drugs. There’s a lot of concern about what it would mean to make it easier for people to take these drugs that are indeed in high demand but that we simply don’t know what kinds of short or long-term health effects they might have.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And there have been cases of people reporting getting sick, having injuries from peptide doses. So, you know there are real concerns about what should be done in order to monitor peptides better and make sure that they’re safe. And you could hear a lot of frustration from the medical experts who were on the advisory panel as each vote on each separate drug went down.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And there have been cases of people reporting getting sick, having injuries from peptide doses. So, you know there are real concerns about what should be done in order to monitor peptides better and make sure that they’re safe. And you could hear a lot of frustration from the medical experts who were on the advisory panel as each vote on each separate drug went down.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They vote on each drug individually, so as they started seeing what was going to happen of those seven drugs, six got recommended to be reclassified so that compounding pharmacies could make them. So a lot of frustration from the medical experts saying like,’Once again, we don’t know enough about how these drugs will impact people. We’re really worried that this is gonna be dangerous and put people’s health and potentially even their lives at risk.’ And then they were outnumbered on the panel by the, the people who were affiliated with the peptide industry or prescription in some way.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>They vote on each drug individually, so as they started seeing what was going to happen of those seven drugs, six got recommended to be reclassified so that compounding pharmacies could make them. So a lot of frustration from the medical experts saying like,’Once again, we don’t know enough about how these drugs will impact people. We’re really worried that this is gonna be dangerous and put people’s health and potentially even their lives at risk.’ And then they were outnumbered on the panel by the, the people who were affiliated with the peptide industry or prescription in some way.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this is where it gets really dicey. Before the advisory panel met, the FDA itself came out and said, hey, we say no to allowing compounding pharmacies to make any of these peptides. This was a decision made by multiple FDA staff scientists. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this is where it gets really dicey. Before the advisory panel met, the FDA itself came out and said, hey, we say no to allowing compounding pharmacies to make any of these peptides. This was a decision made by multiple FDA staff scientists. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that was directly in conflict with the outcome of the meeting, which said six out of these seven peptides, they do recommend changing classifications.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that was directly in conflict with the outcome of the meeting, which said six out of these seven peptides, they do recommend changing classifications.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Advisory panels rarely go against the FDA staff recommendation. According to reports of that meeting, after the votes were tallied and the recommendation was announced, an audible gasp rippled through the room. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Advisory panels rarely go against the FDA staff recommendation. According to reports of that meeting, after the votes were tallied and the recommendation was announced, an audible gasp rippled through the room. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>So with that, it’s gonna be really interesting to see now what happens. The ultimate decision is up to the FDA. So normally, it would be even if the advisory panel had recommended against, if FDA staffers felt really strongly, they could do whatever they felt was right but Robert F. Kennedy Jr., of course, is the head of the health department. He has a lot of power and influence, and I think a lot of outside observers are betting that even if FDA staff don’t think that this change should be made, that Kennedy may push it through which would obviously be quite bad for FDA morale as well.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>So with that, it’s gonna be really interesting to see now what happens. The ultimate decision is up to the FDA. So normally, it would be even if the advisory panel had recommended against, if FDA staffers felt really strongly, they could do whatever they felt was right but Robert F. Kennedy Jr., of course, is the head of the health department. He has a lot of power and influence, and I think a lot of outside observers are betting that even if FDA staff don’t think that this change should be made, that Kennedy may push it through which would obviously be quite bad for FDA morale as well.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Who will benefit from this decision? Well, like we talked about earlier, the telehealth industry and their in-house compounding pharmacies make a TON of money. And now they stand to make even more. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Who will benefit from this decision? Well, like we talked about earlier, the telehealth industry and their in-house compounding pharmacies make a TON of money. And now they stand to make even more. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When you have people on the panel who it’s clear to see how they’re seeing a lot of patient demand. If they’re able to provide more prescriptions to patients for peptides, that is good for their business.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When you have people on the panel who it’s clear to see how they’re seeing a lot of patient demand. If they’re able to provide more prescriptions to patients for peptides, that is good for their business.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For the compounding pharmacies, it’s certainly huge for their bottom line. Hims and Hers announced that they’re looking to start offering peptides this year. Noom has also moved to start offering peptides. They purchased a compounding pharmacy business. So there are a lot of companies that certainly see an upside to giving into demand.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>For the compounding pharmacies, it’s certainly huge for their bottom line. Hims and Hers announced that they’re looking to start offering peptides this year. Noom has also moved to start offering peptides. They purchased a compounding pharmacy business. So there are a lot of companies that certainly see an upside to giving into demand.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But as one of the people who I spoke with pointed out, simply because people want drugs isn’t a good reason to authorize them, and simply because we don’t want them to get it off the gray market. If that were the case, then we would legalize heroin, which indeed actually some libertarians think we should, but which the majority of people think that there are good reasons to not do such a thing.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>But as one of the people who I spoke with pointed out, simply because people want drugs isn’t a good reason to authorize them, and simply because we don’t want them to get it off the gray market. If that were the case, then we would legalize heroin, which indeed actually some libertarians think we should, but which the majority of people think that there are good reasons to not do such a thing.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> so given the FDA’s, uh, I guess, like despite their tensions, um, what does the future of peptide stacking look like now?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> so given the FDA’s, uh, I guess, like despite their tensions, um, what does the future of peptide stacking look like now?\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> For people who are enthusiastic about peptides, I think the future is bright in the sense of them being able to access them. I think it looks like more and more likely that there’s going to be a lot of regulatory interest under Kennedy as long as he’s in power in making these products more accessible.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> For people who are enthusiastic about peptides, I think the future is bright in the sense of them being able to access them. I think it looks like more and more likely that there’s going to be a lot of regulatory interest under Kennedy as long as he’s in power in making these products more accessible.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think that in terms of what the future looks like from a health perspective, the reality is that we simply don’t know, and that’s kind of scary. We don’t know what kind of effects these are going to have, and we don’t really right now have a robust way of monitoring or surveying for those effects either.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>I think that in terms of what the future looks like from a health perspective, the reality is that we simply don’t know, and that’s kind of scary. We don’t know what kind of effects these are going to have, and we don’t really right now have a robust way of monitoring or surveying for those effects either.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So what you would really wanna see are clinical trials that are studying people who are taking peptides and researching those outcomes, and that is one thing that we don’t currently have right now. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>So what you would really wanna see are clinical trials that are studying people who are taking peptides and researching those outcomes, and that is one thing that we don’t currently have right now. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But again, a recommendation isn’t the same as FDA approval. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But again, a recommendation isn’t the same as FDA approval. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Just because this, uh, the panel has said this, that doesn’t mean that compounding pharmacies now have the go-ahead to start producing them. The final decision is up to the FDA and the FDA rulemaking. I believe that outside experts think that process could take up to a year, so it’s not something that we would expect to see immediately happening.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Just because this, uh, the panel has said this, that doesn’t mean that compounding pharmacies now have the go-ahead to start producing them. The final decision is up to the FDA and the FDA rulemaking. I believe that outside experts think that process could take up to a year, so it’s not something that we would expect to see immediately happening.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"text": "Morgan Sung: What about Melanotan II? Unfortunately for the tanmaxxers, the Barbie pep was not included in this latest list of panel recommendations. But it will get its moment soon: The FDA is slated to evaluate Melanotan II and four more peptides for reclassification early next year. ",
"level": 2
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What about Melanotan II? Unfortunately for the tanmaxxers, the Barbie pep was not included in this latest list of panel recommendations. But it will get its moment soon: The FDA is slated to evaluate Melanotan II and four more peptides for reclassification early next year. \u003c/h2>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What about Melanotan II? Unfortunately for the tanmaxxers, the Barbie pep was not included in this latest list of panel recommendations. But it will get its moment soon: The FDA is slated to evaluate Melanotan II and four more peptides for reclassification early next year. \u003c/h2>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That doesn’t mean it’s hard to get a hold of now, though. When I searched “Melanotan II near me,” I found dozens of medical spas across LA that advertise it as part of their “peptide therapy.” For $95, I could drive over to Beverly Hills and pick up a 5 mL vial at a clinic, or $150, I could get it delivered! Mobile IV clinics also offer it as an add-on to their on-demand IV services, so I could get my tan on, get a whole GLOW stack injected, and get a hangover cure administered at the same time, in my own living room! It’s like doordash for peptides! \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>That doesn’t mean it’s hard to get a hold of now, though. When I searched “Melanotan II near me,” I found dozens of medical spas across LA that advertise it as part of their “peptide therapy.” For $95, I could drive over to Beverly Hills and pick up a 5 mL vial at a clinic, or $150, I could get it delivered! Mobile IV clinics also offer it as an add-on to their on-demand IV services, so I could get my tan on, get a whole GLOW stack injected, and get a hangover cure administered at the same time, in my own living room! It’s like doordash for peptides! \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Though, Dr. Grewal does not find that as amusing as I do. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Though, Dr. Grewal does not find that as amusing as I do. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> My gut reaction is honestly mortified, terrified, but also not surprised. And again, it just really brings me back to the point of, you know, the body is really complicated and medicine is complicated.I think the most important thing is that you research the person that is endorsing a specific product or, um, or approach, right? So, like, I love that people research, but I would really encourage, and I’m an advocate of spending the most time researching your source, who you’re going to assign as being credible\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> My gut reaction is honestly mortified, terrified, but also not surprised. And again, it just really brings me back to the point of, you know, the body is really complicated and medicine is complicated.I think the most important thing is that you research the person that is endorsing a specific product or, um, or approach, right? So, like, I love that people research, but I would really encourage, and I’m an advocate of spending the most time researching your source, who you’re going to assign as being credible\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As much as I love my skincare routine and gratuitous pursuit of beauty, I personally will be staying clear of the Barbie peptide. A little gradual tanning lotion and my trusty tanning mitt has never done me wrong. Plus, I don’t have to worry about breaking out into funky looking moles! \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As much as I love my skincare routine and gratuitous pursuit of beauty, I personally will be staying clear of the Barbie peptide. A little gradual tanning lotion and my trusty tanning mitt has never done me wrong. Plus, I don’t have to worry about breaking out into funky looking moles! \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ok, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Ok, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cbr>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cbr>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This episode was produced by Cayla Mihalovich and Maya Cueva. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>This episode was produced by Cayla Mihalovich and Maya Cueva. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Close All Tabs team also includes senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>The Close All Tabs team also includes senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is Executive Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is Executive Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This episode includes clips from TikTok creators carlysnaxwell, itsdevnyc, and cablequeencourt, clips from the Instagram accounts ToxDaddy and sooshbrah, and YouTube clips from SpaAndTell and Joe Rogan Experience.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>This episode includes clips from TikTok creators carlysnaxwell, itsdevnyc, and cablequeencourt, clips from the Instagram accounts ToxDaddy and sooshbrah, and YouTube clips from SpaAndTell and Joe Rogan Experience.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening! \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening! \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, my ‘foryou’ page every day it’s like, “Who’s on Glow? Who’s on the Glow stack or the Barbie stack?” Like you can’t escape it.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, my ‘foryou’ page every day it’s like, “Who’s on Glow? Who’s on the Glow stack or the Barbie stack?” Like you can’t escape it.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Yeah, all over.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Yeah, all over.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
}
],
"excerpt": "Influencers are wild about peptides, but are they safe? ",
"status": "publish",
"parent": 0,
"modified": 1791592584,
"stats": {
"hasAudio": false,
"hasVideo": false,
"hasChartOrMap": false,
"iframeSrcs": [],
"hasGoogleForm": false,
"hasGallery": false,
"hasHearkenModule": false,
"hasPolis": false,
"paragraphCount": 155,
"wordCount": 7074
},
"headData": {
"title": "Influencers Are Peddling Peptides, but Is Tanmaxxing Worth the Risk? | KQED",
"description": "Seems like everywhere you turn these days, influencers are gushing about their peptide use and how it’s done wonders for their appearance and health. One of the more popular ones, Melanotan II, also known as the “Barbie” peptide, is said to give you a tan without the harmful effects of sun exposure. But many of these substances aren’t approved by the FDA and are often sold through unregulated gray market sources. So, how safe is any of this stuff? And what does the peptide boom tell us about the risks people will take in the name of “looksmaxxing?” Morgan talks to skin cancer surgeon Dr. Sungat Grewal and board certified dermatologist Dr. Caren Campbell about the risks of taking peptides. Then Morgan and STAT News reporter Sarah Todd break down how American medical libertarianism and the MAHA movement led us to this very point in time. ",
"ogTitle": "",
"ogDescription": "",
"ogImgId": "",
"twTitle": "",
"twDescription": "",
"twImgId": "",
"socialDescription": "Seems like everywhere you turn these days, influencers are gushing about their peptide use and how it’s done wonders for their appearance and health. One of the more popular ones, Melanotan II, also known as the “Barbie” peptide, is said to give you a tan without the harmful effects of sun exposure. But many of these substances aren’t approved by the FDA and are often sold through unregulated gray market sources. So, how safe is any of this stuff? And what does the peptide boom tell us about the risks people will take in the name of “looksmaxxing?” Morgan talks to skin cancer surgeon Dr. Sungat Grewal and board certified dermatologist Dr. Caren Campbell about the risks of taking peptides. Then Morgan and STAT News reporter Sarah Todd break down how American medical libertarianism and the MAHA movement led us to this very point in time. ",
"schema": {
"@context": "https://schema.org",
"@type": "NewsArticle",
"headline": "Influencers Are Peddling Peptides, but Is Tanmaxxing Worth the Risk?",
"datePublished": "2026-10-07T03:00:00-07:00",
"dateModified": "2026-10-09T17:36:24-07:00",
"image": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png",
"isAccessibleForFree": "True",
"publisher": {
"@type": "NewsMediaOrganization",
"@id": "https://www.kqed.org/#organization",
"name": "KQED",
"logo": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png",
"url": "https://www.kqed.org",
"sameAs": [
"https://www.facebook.com/KQED",
"https://twitter.com/KQED",
"https://www.instagram.com/kqed/",
"https://www.tiktok.com/@kqedofficial",
"https://www.linkedin.com/company/kqed",
"https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeC0IOo7i1P_61zVUWbJ4nw"
]
}
}
},
"primaryCategory": {
"termId": 33520,
"slug": "podcast",
"name": "Podcast"
},
"source": "Close All Tabs",
"sourceUrl": "https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/closealltabs",
"audioUrl": "https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC8518626683.mp3",
"sticky": false,
"nprStoryId": "kqed-12103258",
"templateType": "standard",
"featuredImageType": "standard",
"excludeFromSiteSearch": "Include",
"articleAge": "0",
"path": "/news/12103258/my-body-my-peptides",
"audioTrackLength": null,
"parsedContent": [
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Seems like everywhere you turn these days, influencers are gushing about their peptide use and how it’s done wonders for their appearance and health. One of the more popular ones, Melanotan II, also known as the “Barbie” peptide, is said to give you a tan without the harmful effects of sun exposure. But many of these substances aren’t approved by the FDA and are often sold through unregulated gray market sources. So, how safe is any of this stuff? And what does the peptide boom tell us about the risks people will take in the name of “looksmaxxing?” Morgan talks to skin cancer surgeon Dr. Sungat Grewal and board certified dermatologist Dr. Caren Campbell about the risks of taking peptides. Then Morgan and STAT News reporter Sarah Todd break down how American medical libertarianism and the MAHA movement led us to this very point in time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Guests:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ucsfhealth.org/providers/sungat-grewal\">Dr. Sungat Grewal\u003c/a>, double board-certified dermatologist and Mohs surgeon\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.carencampbellmd.com/?srsltid=AU7gw4XTOrftqgnQy6ysplZ8IdAO4P-TLRwup140ITmchvEhXpO36qrR\">Dr. Caren Campbell\u003c/a>, board-certified dermatologist\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/staff/sarah-todd/\">Sarah Todd\u003c/a>, reporter for \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/04/06/rfk-jr-apparent-contradiction-peptides-vaccines-medical-libertarianism/\">What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/07/24/fda-peptide-compounding-panel-backs-epitalon-rejects-emideltide/\">FDA advisory panel narrowly rejects compounding of one peptide, backs two others\u003c/a> — Lizzy Lawrence and Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/07/23/fda-panel-okays-peptides-compound-pharmacies-bpc-157-kpv/\">FDA panel backs compounded BPC-157, KPV peptides in win for RFK Jr.\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd and Lizzy Lawrence, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/04/06/rfk-jr-apparent-contradiction-peptides-vaccines-medical-libertarianism/\">What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.elle.com/beauty/health-fitness/a73232620/tanmaxxing-trend-explained-interview-2026/\">Is Tanmaxxing an Addiction? A Dermatologist and Psychologist Explains\u003c/a> — Katie Berohn, \u003cem>ELLE\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.gq.com/story/inside-the-weird-new-world-of-peptide-tanning\">Inside the Weird New World of Peptide Tanning\u003c/a> — Savannah Sobrevilla, \u003cem>GQ\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.axios.com/2026/06/29/barbie-drug-peptide-shot-tan\">Melanotan: The “Barbie drug” tanning peptide, explained\u003c/a> — Carly Mallenbaum, \u003cem>Axios\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/live-well/longevity/story/tanning-peptides-melanotan-vyleesi-pt141\">Inside the Viral Tanning Peptide That Accidentally Created Vyleesi’s FDA-Approved Low Sex Drive Drug\u003c/a> — Sara Kitnick, \u003cem>LA Times Studios\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.allure.com/story/fda-peptide-ban-reversal\">The FDA May Reverse a Ban on 14 Injectable Peptides—What That Means For the Beauty Industry\u003c/a> — Kara Nesvig, \u003cem>Allure\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.skincancer.org/press/the-skin-cancer-foundation-issues-warning-regarding-melanotan-ii/\">The Skin Cancer Foundation Issues Warning Regarding Melanotan II\u003c/a> — Deborah S. Sarnoff, MD, \u003cem>Skin Cancer Foundation\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/div>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
},
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Host, Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Can I be honest? I am pretty vain.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I take my skincare routine very seriously: Prescription-strength azelaic acid in the morning, and prescription-strength tretinoin at night. Lots of sunscreen and moisturizer and barrier creams in between, and every other night, I skip the tretinoin and spend three minutes under a red light mask. If I’m feeling indulgent, I’ll throw in a Korean gel mask and a jade roller. Do those do anything? I honestly can’t tell. But it feels nice! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I wouldn’t call myself a looksmaxxer, but I do spend a good amount of time on these beautification rituals. And as a woman who exists on the internet, I feel like my For You Page is constantly lobbing beauty trends at me, and like I’m always trying to avoid getting sucked into yet another fad. I have tried so many serums and face masks and supplements before finally settling into what I consider to be a pretty pared down beauty regiment. But the one thing I haven’t tried yet is a peptide. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It seems like everyone is on them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clips of influencers raving about peptides]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Speaker 1: This is, in my opinion, the most slept-on peptide on the market today. There’s two main benefits that have been life-changing for me . \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: You’re telling me there’s a botox alternative that’s easier on your wallet? Whoa! Let’s talk about Snap-8, the peptide that targets wrinkles without the needles. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Peptides are chemical signals that your body naturally makes to regulate all kinds of bodily functions, like digestion and recovery. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> So peptides are like text messages. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Sungat Grewal is a double board certified dermatologist and skin cancer surgeon. She’s the co-director of Laser Surgery and Cosmetic Dermatology at UCSF. And she’s been keeping an eye on the synthetic peptides people are taking to boost their bodies’ natural processes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>They’re not necessarily good or bad inherently, but it depends on who’s sending the message, what the message is, and who receives it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And I’m not just talking about GLP-1s. Peptide stacking is really in right now. Retatrutide and Tesamorelin for weight loss, Ipamorelin for muscle growth, the “Wolverine Stack” of BPC-157 and TB-500 to boost healing after a gym sesh. If you throw in the copper peptide GHK-Cu, you’ve got a “Glow Stack,” the hot girl combo optimized for anti-aging collagen production. It’s a lot, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some of these compounds are not cleared by the FDA, so the way people get a hold of them is a legal hit or miss. But peptides remain incredibly popular despite the gray market. And there’s one that’s \u003cem>really\u003c/em> blown up this summer: Melanotan II. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cbr>[Clip from Youtube User @SpaandTell]\u003cbr>Kylie says hi Kim your tan looks great. Thank you! I’ve been using the melanotan II peptide over the last month, and I’ve been going outside, and it’s been working like a charm, so excited. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>MT-2 for short — also known as “The Barbie peptide” or “the vacation drug.” It makes you tan, skinny, and horny (it’s a libido booster) — with no harmful UV exposure required. But Dr. Grewal says it also comes with legitimately concerning risks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>It’s pretty scary and it’s very sad, you know, when, um, people are chasing aesthetic goals and are being misdirected and exposing themselves to unknown risks or known risks, not only in the moment, but for future and forever forward, right? Some of these impacts have long-lasting effects.\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re diving into the world of peptides: the dangers of tanmaxxing despite the influencer promotion, and RFK Jr’s crusade to reverse the peptide bans in the U.S. What does the peptide craze say about Americans’ relationship with health and risk? Let’s jump in. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re starting with a new tab. What is melanotan?\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m part of a few weddings this year, and I wanted to look a little more sunkissed. But I’m inside like, all the time, and I have no interest in tanning beds because I don’t want to wrinkle. Again, vain! Sorry! So I started looking into self tanners. I looked up a few beauty influencers who reviewed tanning lotions … and that’s when my feed was inundated with people\u003cs> \u003c/s>recommending this miracle drug: MT-2.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @toxdaddy]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Oh man, I’m super excited. I just got Melanotan 2 this morning and I’m really excited to try it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @carlysnaxwell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I started taking MT2. I’m tan. I haven’t gone bed tanning in a while… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @itsdevync]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I’m now at two months of taking it. I’m obsessed. My tan is only getting better … \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Youtube user@SpaandTell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I am crazy impressed by this – by this, I mean, the Melanotan 2 peptide.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> And it’s not just the tan that makes it so appealing. Dr. Grewal says Melanotan II also has some specific side effects…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong> It’s marketed as the Barbie peptide because tanning might be the effect that you’re shopping for, but it’s not the only effect and some of them can translate into, um, increased libido or decreased appetite. \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>How does it do all that? Well, let’s talk about how peptides work. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Again, peptides are the chemical signals for your body to perform certain functions. Your body has tons of receptors, and peptides can target specific ones, almost like sending a text to a specific phone number. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>You can think about two kinds, like natural versus synthetic. So our body makes peptides naturally. Some common examples would be like insulin or GLP-1. And synthetically, you know, we can create, uh, synthetic peptides to mimic those that are made naturally in the body to get a specific effect\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Melanotan I and Melanotan II are synthetic peptides that…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> …mimic a naturally occurring peptide in the body called alpha-MSH or melanocyte-stimulating hormone. And so there are receptors that are in numerous places in the body called melanocortin receptors that can respond to this signal or chain of events.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are five types of melanocortin receptors in the body. The first regulates hair and skin pigmentation, and it’s what triggers tans. And it’s also really important to understand what getting tan \u003cem>really\u003c/em> means for your body. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> It’s literally your nucleus and your cell saying, “Oh my God, save my DNA.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung : \u003c/strong>This is Dr. Caren Campbell, a board certified dermatologist who practices medical, surgical, and cosmetic dermatology in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell: \u003c/strong>You know, it’s putting an umbrella over it. Your cell is saying, like, “Help me. Protect my DNA so I don’t mutate and cause cancer.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That little umbrella is called eumelanin, and it produces brown and black pigments in the body. It’s what causes darker colors in skin, eyes, and hair. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So Melanotan I sends a text to that first melanocortin receptor, which tells your cells to pop their little umbrellas up to protect their DNA … which is what triggers a tan, without actual UV exposure. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Melanotan I is actually FDA-approved for a very, very specific, very rare skin condition that causes extreme sensitivity to light.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Erythropoietic protoporphyria\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Or EPP for short. It’s actually so rare that Dr. Grewal has never seen the condition in her medical career. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Its incidence has been estimated at two to five cases per million people. You would know if you had this because you have symptoms when you’re a young child. Children have very severe, painful, uh, photosensitivity after exposure to sunlight or even visible light, which can come from even indoor lights, laptop screens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>EPP causes extreme swelling, burning, and pain when exposed to certain light. So the FDA approved a prescription implant of Melanotan I for people with EPP, which stimulates their bodies to produce eumelanin. These little cell umbrellas absorb that light before it can damage their skin. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, Melanotan II, which is the hot one right now, sends a group text to that first receptor. But remember, there are \u003cem>5\u003c/em> melanocortin receptors in the body. So it’s also sending that text to receptors three, four, and five as well. And these aren’t just in the skin. They’re all over the body, including in the central nervous system, which is why MT-2 can cause appetite suppression and boost libido. And because these receptors are all over the body, MT-2 can also cause unpredictable systemic changes … with unpleasant and even dangerous symptoms. Here’s Dr. Campbell again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> In men, that can lead to potentially what’s called priapism, which is where you have an erection that, you know, doesn’t go away, and there was a, a case report of someone needing to have that surgically drained in the emergency room.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, it, it also can cause nausea and vomiting. It’s also stimulates our sympathetic nervous system, which you can think about that like your fight or flight. So anything you needed to, like, run away from a predator, it does. So it dilates your pupils so you can see better.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It causes, you know, increased heart rate so you can get running. It causes hypertension ’cause it constricts your blood vessels. Um, so that fight or flight response can be elevated and you can get what’s called rhabdomyolysis, which is where you get muscle breakdown, and it can be very dangerous, um, life-threatening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So those side effects are pretty rough. But Dr. Grewal says there’s also this main one … \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> We have seen reports of patients like breaking out in moles, for example, and breaking out in atypical or what we call funky looking moles, right? \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @\u003c/em>cablequeencourt]\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Let’s count how many moles we have on our face since taking MT2. So this one’s new. This is new …Yeah, um, and that’s not including what’s going on on my body….\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Moles are clusters of melanocytes, the skin cells that make pigment. Most are totally benign. But like Dr. Grewal said, Melanotan moles are … funky.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Because it’s stimulating the same pathway that can eventually lead to melanoma. And again, we don’t have causation yet, but we do not have long-term data. And so why would you subject yourself to that risk when you can use other methods to tan the skin safely without breaking out in moles? And the moles are not just darker, the moles, like, look concerning. They, they often have atypical features.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Those little cell umbrellas can only protect so much. And if you’re exposing them to harmful UV rays over and over again, they can mutate and become cancerous. One of the ways dermatologists evaluate moles for cancer is by checking if they’ve evolved — if they’re getting bigger, darker, and wonkier. This isn’t as much of a concern for patients who are prescribed MT-1 for EPP, since they’re generally not engaging in risky behavior that causes additional UV damage — like intentionally tanning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But when it comes to the tanmaxxers … \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @sooshbrah]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>This is 2021, 2022, I was doing 500 micrograms of Melanotan and I was jumping in the tanning bed for 15 minutes. I literally changed race in like three sessions. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> I can’t say for certain that, you know, melanotan causes melanoma. But we do know based on what are, again, called case [00:23:00] reports, where we don’t have large numbers, but we have good evidence of people who’ve started melanotan and then as soon as two weeks noticed almost immediate darkening and irregularity of their moles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Campbell said that in this case report, one of the patients had used tanning beds and melanotan at the same time, and had five new moles biopsied. All five were cancerous. And there aren’t many clinical studies on the effects of long-term melanotan use, in a broad population of users who don’t have EPP. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Melanotan II was actually developed in the late 80s to early 90s, and in the early 2000s, researchers began testing it to treat sexual dysfunction. But Dr. Grewal says there’s a reason it never made it to market. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Usually when a peptide or any product is on its way to becoming a drug, it goes through rigorous testing, and pharmaceuticals would love to sell it because they’re gonna profit immensely. So usually when it drops off the track, it’s because either it’s not providing the results that they’re hoping for or the safety is not promising\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Despite that, both MT-1 and MT-2 are still wildly popular on the gray market, as both a nasal spray and an injectable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately I am not surprised because, you know, the story of wanting tanner skin is a story we’ve heard before. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, you know, first it was tanning beds, now we know how dangerous those are in terms of increasing melanoma risk even with one use, you know, before the age of 30. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And as is the case with many unregulated, technically illegal peptides, vendors can sell them around the US thanks to a handy loophole: the “Research Use Only” pathway. Essentially saying, this product legally isn’t for human consumption, with no quality guarantee or regulatory oversight. But there’s really nothing that can stop buyers from using it on themselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> You have to remember that when it’s not FDA regulated, you really have no idea what’s in the bottle. What you’re getting in your bottle is like a crapshoot. So, you know, and historically we’ve seen issues with, um, sterility of products, contamination with unregulated products, and the concentration and the purity is also unknown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that alone is like a huge reason why I would never advise anyone to take a non FDA-approved medication, whether or not it’s a peptide, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So knowing all of these risks, both healthwise and lookswise, why are people bent on taking Melanotan? And this is just one of many unregulated, very popular peptides! What’s driving the peptide boom in spite of medical experts’ warnings?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That is a whole new tab… for after this quick break. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you! To become a member and support the show, go to donate dot kqed dot org slash podcasts. Ok, after the break: we’re diving into medical libertarianism. Stick around.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome back! Time to open a new tab. Peptides and medical libertarianism. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>RFK Jr, the vaccine denier and guy in charge of our entire country’s health department, is also a pep pusher. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Yeah I mean I’m a big fan of peptides. I’ve used them myself. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was RFK Jr on Joe Rogan’s podcast earlier this year, where he spoke about the proliferation of unregulated peptides. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>A black market came out and the black market is run by companies that say they’re making the peptides for animal use or research purposes. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So basically when you buy peptides online you don’t have any guarantees about the safety and the quality of what you’re buying. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s Sarah Todd, a reporter at STAT News. She covers the business of health, which means she’s also been following the gray market peptide industry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> New York Magazine had a bunch of peptides tested and found that about a third of them were mislabeled or under or overdosed or contaminated by bacteria. So those are all some of the potential health risks that you run into when you’re getting them off the gray and black market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But that hasn’t diminished people’s appetite for peptides. Sarah says this all falls in line with a concept called “medical libertarianism” — the idea that we should be allowed to do whatever we want with our bodies regardless of what the government or medical establishment says.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that extends to taking drugs like peptides that don’t have a lot of data behind them when it comes to their impacts on humans, either their benefits or their potential risks. But the idea with medical libertarianism is, like, that’s my choice, and if I’m willing to put my body on the line for the hopeful benefits that I can get, then I should be able to do so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s a very American mindset. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> It really goes along with this sort of all-American idea that we can control our own destinies and make our own choices, right? And a sort of suspicion about the government’s role in overseeing people’s lives, a desire to, you know, ward off the idea of the nanny state and the idea that people should be able to chase their own pursuit of happiness and the American dream.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if that includes self-optimizing your body and your health, then that’s something that people should be allowed to do, would be the argument that these people are making.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Americans have always had this attitude about health. In the 1970s, there was a huge backlash from the public when the government tried to regulate vitamin and supplement industries…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People wrote in and said, “Don’t take my vitamins away, “ and we wound up with the situation that we have today, where they’re still many people would argue, uh, largely unregulated or very under-regulated. I think that people really wanted to hold on to these kinds of products. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There have been ebbs and flows to medical libertarianism throughout modern American history. And then the COVID 19 pandemic hit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People started self-experimenting with all kinds of things, like everything from ivermectin, which you m- may remember, to some sort of herbal medicines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> On one hand, you had a lot of interest in sort of like experimentation with drugs to see what you could do to improve your own health, protect yourself potentially from COVID in various ways. We also saw a big boom in the rise of social media health influencers, health and wellness influencers during this time as well, and I think that has played a huge role.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Many of the sort of man-fluencers like Joe Rogan and, and Gary Brecka and Andrew Huberman were already popular pre-pandemic, but sort of like became even more so, gained huge followings during, and I think that that’s had a lot to do with the sort of rising awareness of peptides and interest in trying them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>People started taking this “folk pharmacology” approach to medicine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So that term folk pharmacology was mentioned by a researcher I spoke with for a story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>His name is Luke Turnock, and he talked about how first it sort of started, uh, with peptides in the gym, with bodybuilders and powerlifters sort of sharing, like, “Oh, this, this drug is really helping me recover from this industry. This drug is making me stronger.” But he applies that to the way that people talk about peptides in online spaces and forums as well, where people are generally a lot more likely to believe somebody else on a Reddit forum than they might be to listen to a researcher who’s telling them there’s not enough data to support taking these drugs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think it, it has to do with some of the decline of trust in science, and then it also has to do with the sort of, like, just stock that we put in recommendations from other people who we perceive as regular people, whether that’s, like, you know, somebody telling us, like, “Oh, I love this vacuum,” or in this case, “I love my Wolverine stack,” you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Make American Healthy Again movement is also pretty staunchly anti-vaccine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When I first started thinking about this, I was like, “This seems like a huge contradiction.” I didn’t understand why the MAHA movement would be so skeptical toward vaccines and yet really welcoming toward peptides. But I think it comes back to what we were talking about with medical libertarianism.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A lot of the MAHA people don’t necessarily want nobody to get vaccines. They say they are more wary of certain vaccine mandates. So there the idea again is like, “Don’t tell me what to do with my own body. It should be my choice whether or not I take it.” Peptides, again, they’re saying they don’t want everybody to have to take peptides.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They just wanna be able to take peptides if they want to. So that’s where it all sort of begins to make sense in an overall worldview.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this brand of medical libertarianism is applied pretty inconsistently. RFK Jr’s MAHA agenda is actively restricting access to trans healthcare, birth control, and abortion — issues that revolve around bodily autonomy. But when it comes to peptides? They believe the government should be hands-off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It goes back to a Biden-era decision.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So back in 2023, the Biden administration moved a bunch of peptides into a different category. That meant that compounding pharmacies could no longer produce them, and their reasons were basically, you know, what we’ve been talking about the typical warnings that we get from the medical community, that these drugs haven’t been studied enough to be able to say definitively that they are either going to do what they promise they’ll do or that they won’t cause some other big problem like cancer as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that was the reason for moving over the classification. Now what Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is looking to do is to reclassify some of those peptides so the compounding pharmacies can indeed begin producing them again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Which means that they can be legally produced in the US, under \u003cem>some\u003c/em> regulatory oversight — unlike the facilities that are producing gray market peptides now. Compounding pharmacies at least have to be licensed and routinely inspected through state pharmacy boards. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>RFK JR. has been on this crusade to get the FDA to lift this Biden-era peptide ban — which he talked about on that same Joe Rogan podcast episode.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> He basically said that he is a fan of peptides. He wants to make them more accessible via compounding pharmacies. Uh, but the reason he says is not necessarily he understands that not all the science and data is out there on peptides yet, but he says that it’s gonna be safer for people to get them from compounding pharmacies than to get them off the gray and black market, and that’s sort of his logic for, for why it would make sense to, to reclassify them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And that is a new tab. Are peptides legal now? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>I\u003c/strong>t’s complicated. We’re gonna start by explaining different kinds of pharmacies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, typical pharmacies make and dispense FDA-approved drugs. There are the retail pharmacies that sell over-the-counter allergy meds or fill your prescriptions for blood pressure pills. There are specialty pharmacies that manage medications for very rare, highly complex health conditions, which might require stricter protocols for handling, storing, and administering meds. Both of these types of pharmacies mainly deal with medications that have already been manufactured. The pharmacy makes sure they’re giving patients the right dosage and right amount of pre-made meds. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, compounding pharmacies mix the medications themselves. There are lots of reasons why people use them: maybe the commercial version of the drug includes ingredients they’re allergic to, or maybe they need a cream, not a gel. Maybe the only way to get the right dosage is by getting a custom mix. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Sometimes there are drug shortages, and compounding pharmacies can be an alternative as well then because they can custom make a particular drug that maybe, uh, isn’t available at the moment. It might also be, as was the case with GLP-1 weight loss drugs, uh, compounding pharmacies were making a lot of, uh, GLP-1 drugs that were alternatives to the more expensive ones, like Ozempic and Wegovy, and the idea h- here was, like, you sacrifice the sort of name brand, uh, aspect, but then you, you could get the, the drugs that would have, hopefully, the same effects for cheaper.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that’s another reason why people might turn to compounding pharmacies as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In recent years, compounding pharmacies have become wildly lucrative, thanks to the rise of for-profit telehealth. A lot of telehealth companies have in-house compounding pharmacies, and they sell all kinds of prescription meds: personalized topical creams with Tretinoin and Niacinamide for acne, chewable tablets of Finasteride and Minoxidil for hair loss, low-dose Vardenafil for erectile dysfunction, custom-mixed hormone replacement suppositories for menopause, and now, compounded GLP-1s for weight loss. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Compounding pharmacies can legally make anything … as long the ingredients they’re working are good with the FDA. The final product doesn’t have to be FDA-approved.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The drugs that a compounding pharmacy makes do not necessarily have to have been authorized by the FDA. Um, as long as, you know, they have a prescription for that drug from a healthcare provider, they will, will produce the drugs. And then there’s certain, uh, substances that they’re not allowed to make, such as the peptides that are currently on the 503B substances list. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are 19 peptides on that 503B substances list, including Melanotan II. Earlier this year, the FDA announced that they were going to consider reclassifying \u003cem>some\u003c/em> of those banned peptides. This is not the same as FDA approval. They haven’t gone through clinical trials that guarantee safety or efficacy, and the FDA doesn’t verify the quality before they hit the market. But if they are reclassified, that means that compounding pharmacies are allowed to make and distribute medications that contain them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The argument that was probably most common from the people on the side of making peptides more accessible via compounding pharmacies was that it’s true that we don’t have all the data yet, and we do need more of it. However, we really don’t want people getting these drugs off the gray and black market because of the other health risks, you know, the risks of contamination, the risk of mislabeled drugs where you think that you’re getting one thing, you’re actually getting something else. And they basically said patients are demanding these drugs and we should make sure that if they’re going to take them, they’re taking it the safest way they can.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In other words, it’s better to have Americans sourcing their peptides from regulated facilities, rather than overseas labs that may not be held to the same standards of sterility and quality.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In July, an FDA advisory panel met to discuss whether or not to recommend reclassification for seven peptides.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The advisory panel itself was really controversial. So this is a group of people who aren’t members of the FDA themselves, and the FDA doesn’t have to follow their recommendations, but typically, their recommendations carry a lot of weight, and typically, an advisory panel is made up of doctors, researchers, other experts in their field.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In this case the people who were appointed to the panel, a lot of them were people who had some sort of potential conflict of interest or stake in the outcome of the decision on peptides, people who are prescribing peptides themselves, people who are you know, affiliated with compounding pharmacies in some way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that immediately raised a lot of red flags for critics who said, “How can we trust the advice of an advisory panel if it’s people who would potentially stand to profit from what the outcome is?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The pro-peptide crowd on the panel pointed out that patients are demanding these drugs, and that \u003cem>some \u003c/em>regulatory oversight is better than continuing to allow Americans to get their peptides from sketchy overseas labs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>Then the counterargument from the medical experts is basically that there, again, simply isn’t enough human data on these drugs. There’s a lot of concern about what it would mean to make it easier for people to take these drugs that are indeed in high demand but that we simply don’t know what kinds of short or long-term health effects they might have.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And there have been cases of people reporting getting sick, having injuries from peptide doses. So, you know there are real concerns about what should be done in order to monitor peptides better and make sure that they’re safe. And you could hear a lot of frustration from the medical experts who were on the advisory panel as each vote on each separate drug went down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They vote on each drug individually, so as they started seeing what was going to happen of those seven drugs, six got recommended to be reclassified so that compounding pharmacies could make them. So a lot of frustration from the medical experts saying like,’Once again, we don’t know enough about how these drugs will impact people. We’re really worried that this is gonna be dangerous and put people’s health and potentially even their lives at risk.’ And then they were outnumbered on the panel by the, the people who were affiliated with the peptide industry or prescription in some way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this is where it gets really dicey. Before the advisory panel met, the FDA itself came out and said, hey, we say no to allowing compounding pharmacies to make any of these peptides. This was a decision made by multiple FDA staff scientists. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that was directly in conflict with the outcome of the meeting, which said six out of these seven peptides, they do recommend changing classifications.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Advisory panels rarely go against the FDA staff recommendation. According to reports of that meeting, after the votes were tallied and the recommendation was announced, an audible gasp rippled through the room. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>So with that, it’s gonna be really interesting to see now what happens. The ultimate decision is up to the FDA. So normally, it would be even if the advisory panel had recommended against, if FDA staffers felt really strongly, they could do whatever they felt was right but Robert F. Kennedy Jr., of course, is the head of the health department. He has a lot of power and influence, and I think a lot of outside observers are betting that even if FDA staff don’t think that this change should be made, that Kennedy may push it through which would obviously be quite bad for FDA morale as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Who will benefit from this decision? Well, like we talked about earlier, the telehealth industry and their in-house compounding pharmacies make a TON of money. And now they stand to make even more. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When you have people on the panel who it’s clear to see how they’re seeing a lot of patient demand. If they’re able to provide more prescriptions to patients for peptides, that is good for their business.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For the compounding pharmacies, it’s certainly huge for their bottom line. Hims and Hers announced that they’re looking to start offering peptides this year. Noom has also moved to start offering peptides. They purchased a compounding pharmacy business. So there are a lot of companies that certainly see an upside to giving into demand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But as one of the people who I spoke with pointed out, simply because people want drugs isn’t a good reason to authorize them, and simply because we don’t want them to get it off the gray market. If that were the case, then we would legalize heroin, which indeed actually some libertarians think we should, but which the majority of people think that there are good reasons to not do such a thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> so given the FDA’s, uh, I guess, like despite their tensions, um, what does the future of peptide stacking look like now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> For people who are enthusiastic about peptides, I think the future is bright in the sense of them being able to access them. I think it looks like more and more likely that there’s going to be a lot of regulatory interest under Kennedy as long as he’s in power in making these products more accessible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think that in terms of what the future looks like from a health perspective, the reality is that we simply don’t know, and that’s kind of scary. We don’t know what kind of effects these are going to have, and we don’t really right now have a robust way of monitoring or surveying for those effects either.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So what you would really wanna see are clinical trials that are studying people who are taking peptides and researching those outcomes, and that is one thing that we don’t currently have right now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But again, a recommendation isn’t the same as FDA approval. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Just because this, uh, the panel has said this, that doesn’t mean that compounding pharmacies now have the go-ahead to start producing them. The final decision is up to the FDA and the FDA rulemaking. I believe that outside experts think that process could take up to a year, so it’s not something that we would expect to see immediately happening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What about Melanotan II? Unfortunately for the tanmaxxers, the Barbie pep was not included in this latest list of panel recommendations. But it will get its moment soon: The FDA is slated to evaluate Melanotan II and four more peptides for reclassification early next year. \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That doesn’t mean it’s hard to get a hold of now, though. When I searched “Melanotan II near me,” I found dozens of medical spas across LA that advertise it as part of their “peptide therapy.” For $95, I could drive over to Beverly Hills and pick up a 5 mL vial at a clinic, or $150, I could get it delivered! Mobile IV clinics also offer it as an add-on to their on-demand IV services, so I could get my tan on, get a whole GLOW stack injected, and get a hangover cure administered at the same time, in my own living room! It’s like doordash for peptides! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though, Dr. Grewal does not find that as amusing as I do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> My gut reaction is honestly mortified, terrified, but also not surprised. And again, it just really brings me back to the point of, you know, the body is really complicated and medicine is complicated.I think the most important thing is that you research the person that is endorsing a specific product or, um, or approach, right? So, like, I love that people research, but I would really encourage, and I’m an advocate of spending the most time researching your source, who you’re going to assign as being credible\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As much as I love my skincare routine and gratuitous pursuit of beauty, I personally will be staying clear of the Barbie peptide. A little gradual tanning lotion and my trusty tanning mitt has never done me wrong. Plus, I don’t have to worry about breaking out into funky looking moles! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ok, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cbr>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode was produced by Cayla Mihalovich and Maya Cueva. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Close All Tabs team also includes senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is Executive Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode includes clips from TikTok creators carlysnaxwell, itsdevnyc, and cablequeencourt, clips from the Instagram accounts ToxDaddy and sooshbrah, and YouTube clips from SpaAndTell and Joe Rogan Experience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, my ‘foryou’ page every day it’s like, “Who’s on Glow? Who’s on the Glow stack or the Barbie stack?” Like you can’t escape it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Yeah, all over.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
}
],
"link": "/news/12103258/my-body-my-peptides",
"authors": [
"11944",
"12028",
"11943",
"11832",
"11869",
"12026"
],
"programs": [
"news_35082"
],
"categories": [
"news_33520"
],
"tags": [
"news_34645",
"news_22973",
"news_18543",
"news_35692",
"news_3137",
"news_31079",
"news_34646",
"news_36180",
"news_33927"
],
"featImg": "news_12103261",
"label": "source_news_12103258"
},
"forum_2010101915284": {
"type": "posts",
"id": "forum_2010101915284",
"meta": {
"index": "posts_1716263798",
"site": "forum",
"id": "2010101915284",
"score": null,
"sort": [
1789425446000
]
},
"guestAuthors": [],
"slug": "have-you-navigated-a-quiet-divorce",
"title": "Have You Navigated a ‘Quiet Divorce?’",
"publishDate": 1789425446,
"format": "audio",
"headTitle": "Have You Navigated a ‘Quiet Divorce?’ | KQED",
"labelTerm": {
"term": 3,
"site": "forum"
},
"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Tuesday, September 15, 2026 at 10am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some marriages don’t end with a blowup or betrayal. Instead, partners slowly become emotionally disconnected – more like roommates than lovers. It’s a phenomenon that’s been dubbed a “quiet divorce.” We talk with psychologists Thema Bryant and Eli Finkel about why relationships quietly come undone, how to rebuild connection and when it may be time to let go.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Eli Finkel,\u003c/strong> professor of psychology, Northwestern University; host, “Love Factually” podcast; author, “The All-or-Nothing Marriage: How the Bes Marriages Work”\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant,\u003c/strong> psychologist and author, “Matters of the Heart”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. You’ve likely heard of quiet quitting, when it was all over social media, advocating for workers to do just the bare minimum in their jobs and focus on themselves instead. Now it seems applying that to romantic relationships is catching fire. Quiet divorcing is not ending the marriage legally, but emotionally disconnecting from it until lovers become more like roommates. And this hour we’ll look at why the phenomenon, while not new, is showing up these days on social media and the web.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Joining me first is psychologist Thema Bryant, who goes by Dr. Thema. She’s also author of \u003cem>Matters of the Heart\u003c/em>. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, Dr. Thema.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Oh, so good to be here. Thank you for covering this important topic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, so glad to be covering it with you. How would you, Dr. Thema, define quiet divorce?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Quiet divorce is when we remain physically present, legally present, but emotionally absent. So we have checked out, and it could be that both people are engaging in it, or it could be one person in the couple.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So what does it look like in a relationship? What tend to be the signs that a couple is in a quiet divorce?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> When they are going through the motions of living together, functioning, getting things done that need to be done, perhaps around parenting or paying the bills, but there is a lack of emotional intimacy, sometimes, and usually also physical and sexual intimacy. And so they may function more as roommates. Some people aren’t even speaking anymore. So they may live in the same house but are not really engaging with each other. So maybe even in different rooms, like roommates?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They could be in different rooms, but they could also show up for each other. There are a range. So some couples really have turned into friends. There’s not a romantic aspect to it. And then some really are disconnected from each other and don’t do much at all together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it sounds like you’re describing that it can be more of like a logistical relationship, or that the partners can be living together under the same roof, but maybe parallel lives as opposed to sort of intersecting lives.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. So there is not that level of active nourishment, being able to enjoy each other, being able to share on a deep level. So it has become very surface for any number of reasons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I think you’re starting to answer my next question, which is what can lead people to the point where they’re disconnecting like that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Yes. So sometimes people associate the home responsibilities with too much tension, too much drama, too much friction. And so, especially if you’re an avoidant person, avoiding conflict, avoiding difficult conversations, then engaging with this person feels like it’s gonna be too intense, or you don’t feel you have the capacity for it or the desire for it, or don’t feel like there is a payoff to it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so the shutting down. So avoidance can lead to it, also resentment and unresolved issues. So there could have been an attempt to address some of the conflict and then a person didn’t feel heard, likely multiple times, and so stopped trying. So this idea of it’s not worth it, even if I express myself or even if we have this level of deep conversation, nothing’s going to change, or this person isn’t going to. And so now I want to protect myself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A person may feel like, I am tired of being disappointed, tired of getting frustrated. So in an attempt to prevent, in their minds, I’m going to prevent further disappointment and frustration by protecting my heart, by disconnecting in that way. Sometimes that involves people who are looking for connection outside of the relationship and sometimes not. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It sounds like you’re almost — I’m so struck by the word protection — so it’s almost like this sort of self-preservation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Yes, yeah. It may feel like this is not a nourishing place for me, it’s not a fulfilling place for me, it’s a safe place for me. Usually, when I say safe in this way, I’m meaning emotionally. And so if I don’t enjoy it anymore, but for any number of reasons I have a barrier to leaving, then I will remain physically there and legally in it, but have already withdrawn.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Noelle writes on Discord, and let me invite listeners into the conversation. Do you think you might be in a quiet divorce or have questions about what it is? Have you been in one that led to a breakup or actual divorce, or for someone close to you, how did you know it was time to call it quits? And why do you think quiet divorce is resonating today?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can email forum@kqed.org, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook and Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Noelle writes, “Many still live together due to economic constraints these days.” So Dr. Thema, why might people decide they can still exist in this space, stay married, right, but exist in the quiet divorce space? What can it offer?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> So there can be familiarity. Some people are anxious, understandably, about the unknown. So even though this isn’t fulfilling for me, from what they hear from those who are outside in the dating world, they may feel like there’s not a lot that I would receive out there. So at least whatever I’m getting in here, I know it, I’m familiar with it. And I’ve adapted to it, that in some ways I’ve made peace with the parts that are missing, and I’m willing to live my life without those components.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Or part of me may have hope that down the road things could change. But for now, you know, I have my person. This person knows me. I know them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then you mentioned the financial piece, and I do want to say, for some people from religious communities, there can be a spiritual peace, of them saying, I promise God I would stay, and so I’m gonna honor the covenant and stay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so not every person has the financial freedom to walk away, as you say, and then there’s also the cultural expectations of not getting a divorce. I also read in one article that they describe quiet divorce as almost a bridge between what they cannot leave and what they can no longer keep doing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Yes, that it becomes the compromise, right? I can’t leave, but I also cannot keep putting myself through perhaps the emotional gymnastics of engaging with this person. And so I am present but absent, and that may feel like, for some people, the only solution.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Rishi adds on Discord, “People also stay married due to factors like immigration and health insurance.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If the slow burn of a relationship, right, as I noted in the intro, isn’t new, why, Dr. Thema, do you think the quiet divorce phenomenon has gone viral recently? Why do you think that term is resonating with a lot of people?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> I think it goes with us living in an era where people are more transparent and honest, including with strangers. So the gift of social media, gift or curse, is people use it in the way that older generations would use a journal or use prayer. So people would write about it, they would pray about it. They may tell it to their best friend, but never tell anyone else.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And now we’re in a season where people share kind of their innermost thoughts and feelings with the world. So I think the existence of it is not new, but the speaking about it openly is more new.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Again, we’re talking this hour about quiet divorces, when couples stay together but become emotionally distant, more like roommates than lovers. And we’re talking about it with Dr. Thema Bryant, a psychologist and author of the book \u003cem>Matters of the Heart\u003c/em>, and with you, our listeners, at 866-733-6786, on our social channels, Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram, and at the email address forum@kqed.org.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And let me remind listeners, you are listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Let me go to caller Thomas in Santa Rosa. Thomas, go ahead. You’re on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> Yes, yes, good morning. So when I heard this program coming on, this is a new term that I’ve been hearing. And also, on top of it, a new term that I heard is gray divorce. And where people are, you know, in my case, in a situation with my spouse, we’ve been together for 35 years, married, and longer than that before.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And at some point after the kids were born, and the one thing that I recall coming in between the conventional marriage was that the kids, you know, started sleeping in the bed and I was in a different room. I never left that other room. I never, you know, came back to… You know, we still continue to have a relationship that way. However, it starts there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then what happens in my case is we just became so nonconfrontational. We didn’t want to go into areas that were uncomfortable. And so we avoided them. And the avoidance was what kind of separated it out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And we are still living together. We have separated and we continue to live together because we know each other. It doesn’t matter. It’s very amicable. So that’s the part that’s, you know, it almost, at some point, you give up the things that you always wanted, the sexual things. It’s all gone. At this point, at 65, this is great.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Thomas, I so appreciate you sharing that story because it underscores so much, Dr. Thema, what you have been describing that can lead to that, but also why people, you know, might stay in it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Right. Absolutely. And I appreciate you sharing that, even the role that parenting plays, that sometimes people pour into their children but may neglect the relationship. And then when the kids get older, it’s looking like, well, you know, what do we have? What do we still have together? And can we even reconnect?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And what I have found with couples is often both people have tried, but not at the same time. So one person may have been pursuing and the other was stepping away. So it’s really important to be—\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Engaging in the investment or the trying together simultaneously, it sounds like.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Yes, yes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the phenomenon of quiet divorce. While not new, the term seems to be resonating with people, and we’re talking about why with Dr. Thema and with you, our listeners. Stay with us for more after the break. You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
"blocks": [
{
"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"text": "Airdate: Tuesday, September 15, 2026 at 10am",
"level": 2
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Tuesday, September 15, 2026 at 10am\u003c/h2>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Tuesday, September 15, 2026 at 10am\u003c/h2>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some marriages don’t end with a blowup or betrayal. Instead, partners slowly become emotionally disconnected – more like roommates than lovers. It’s a phenomenon that’s been dubbed a “quiet divorce.” We talk with psychologists Thema Bryant and Eli Finkel about why relationships quietly come undone, how to rebuild connection and when it may be time to let go.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Some marriages don’t end with a blowup or betrayal. Instead, partners slowly become emotionally disconnected – more like roommates than lovers. It’s a phenomenon that’s been dubbed a “quiet divorce.” We talk with psychologists Thema Bryant and Eli Finkel about why relationships quietly come undone, how to rebuild connection and when it may be time to let go.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/list",
"attrs": {
"items": [
"Eli Finkel, professor of psychology, Northwestern University; host, “Love Factually” podcast; author, “The All-or-Nothing Marriage: How the Bes Marriages Work”",
"Dr. Thema Bryant, psychologist and author, “Matters of the Heart”"
],
"ordered": false,
"values": ""
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\n\u003c/ul>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">",
null,
"\n\n",
null,
"\u003c/ul>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": [
{
"blockName": "core/list-item",
"attrs": [],
"innerBlocks": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Eli Finkel,\u003c/strong> professor of psychology, Northwestern University; host, “Love Factually” podcast; author, “The All-or-Nothing Marriage: How the Bes Marriages Work”\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Eli Finkel,\u003c/strong> professor of psychology, Northwestern University; host, “Love Factually” podcast; author, “The All-or-Nothing Marriage: How the Bes Marriages Work”\u003c/li>\n"
]
},
{
"blockName": "core/list-item",
"attrs": [],
"innerBlocks": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant,\u003c/strong> psychologist and author, “Matters of the Heart”\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant,\u003c/strong> psychologist and author, “Matters of the Heart”\u003c/li>\n"
]
}
]
},
{
"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"text": "Episode Transcript",
"level": 2
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. You’ve likely heard of quiet quitting, when it was all over social media, advocating for workers to do just the bare minimum in their jobs and focus on themselves instead. Now it seems applying that to romantic relationships is catching fire. Quiet divorcing is not ending the marriage legally, but emotionally disconnecting from it until lovers become more like roommates. And this hour we’ll look at why the phenomenon, while not new, is showing up these days on social media and the web.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. You’ve likely heard of quiet quitting, when it was all over social media, advocating for workers to do just the bare minimum in their jobs and focus on themselves instead. Now it seems applying that to romantic relationships is catching fire. Quiet divorcing is not ending the marriage legally, but emotionally disconnecting from it until lovers become more like roommates. And this hour we’ll look at why the phenomenon, while not new, is showing up these days on social media and the web.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Joining me first is psychologist Thema Bryant, who goes by Dr. Thema. She’s also author of \u003cem>Matters of the Heart\u003c/em>. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, Dr. Thema.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Joining me first is psychologist Thema Bryant, who goes by Dr. Thema. She’s also author of \u003cem>Matters of the Heart\u003c/em>. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, Dr. Thema.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Oh, so good to be here. Thank you for covering this important topic.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Oh, so good to be here. Thank you for covering this important topic.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, so glad to be covering it with you. How would you, Dr. Thema, define quiet divorce?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, so glad to be covering it with you. How would you, Dr. Thema, define quiet divorce?\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Quiet divorce is when we remain physically present, legally present, but emotionally absent. So we have checked out, and it could be that both people are engaging in it, or it could be one person in the couple.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Quiet divorce is when we remain physically present, legally present, but emotionally absent. So we have checked out, and it could be that both people are engaging in it, or it could be one person in the couple.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So what does it look like in a relationship? What tend to be the signs that a couple is in a quiet divorce?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So what does it look like in a relationship? What tend to be the signs that a couple is in a quiet divorce?\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> When they are going through the motions of living together, functioning, getting things done that need to be done, perhaps around parenting or paying the bills, but there is a lack of emotional intimacy, sometimes, and usually also physical and sexual intimacy. And so they may function more as roommates. Some people aren’t even speaking anymore. So they may live in the same house but are not really engaging with each other. So maybe even in different rooms, like roommates?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> When they are going through the motions of living together, functioning, getting things done that need to be done, perhaps around parenting or paying the bills, but there is a lack of emotional intimacy, sometimes, and usually also physical and sexual intimacy. And so they may function more as roommates. Some people aren’t even speaking anymore. So they may live in the same house but are not really engaging with each other. So maybe even in different rooms, like roommates?\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They could be in different rooms, but they could also show up for each other. There are a range. So some couples really have turned into friends. There’s not a romantic aspect to it. And then some really are disconnected from each other and don’t do much at all together.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>They could be in different rooms, but they could also show up for each other. There are a range. So some couples really have turned into friends. There’s not a romantic aspect to it. And then some really are disconnected from each other and don’t do much at all together.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it sounds like you’re describing that it can be more of like a logistical relationship, or that the partners can be living together under the same roof, but maybe parallel lives as opposed to sort of intersecting lives.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it sounds like you’re describing that it can be more of like a logistical relationship, or that the partners can be living together under the same roof, but maybe parallel lives as opposed to sort of intersecting lives.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. So there is not that level of active nourishment, being able to enjoy each other, being able to share on a deep level. So it has become very surface for any number of reasons.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. So there is not that level of active nourishment, being able to enjoy each other, being able to share on a deep level. So it has become very surface for any number of reasons.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I think you’re starting to answer my next question, which is what can lead people to the point where they’re disconnecting like that?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I think you’re starting to answer my next question, which is what can lead people to the point where they’re disconnecting like that?\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Yes. So sometimes people associate the home responsibilities with too much tension, too much drama, too much friction. And so, especially if you’re an avoidant person, avoiding conflict, avoiding difficult conversations, then engaging with this person feels like it’s gonna be too intense, or you don’t feel you have the capacity for it or the desire for it, or don’t feel like there is a payoff to it.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Yes. So sometimes people associate the home responsibilities with too much tension, too much drama, too much friction. And so, especially if you’re an avoidant person, avoiding conflict, avoiding difficult conversations, then engaging with this person feels like it’s gonna be too intense, or you don’t feel you have the capacity for it or the desire for it, or don’t feel like there is a payoff to it.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so the shutting down. So avoidance can lead to it, also resentment and unresolved issues. So there could have been an attempt to address some of the conflict and then a person didn’t feel heard, likely multiple times, and so stopped trying. So this idea of it’s not worth it, even if I express myself or even if we have this level of deep conversation, nothing’s going to change, or this person isn’t going to. And so now I want to protect myself.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And so the shutting down. So avoidance can lead to it, also resentment and unresolved issues. So there could have been an attempt to address some of the conflict and then a person didn’t feel heard, likely multiple times, and so stopped trying. So this idea of it’s not worth it, even if I express myself or even if we have this level of deep conversation, nothing’s going to change, or this person isn’t going to. And so now I want to protect myself.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A person may feel like, I am tired of being disappointed, tired of getting frustrated. So in an attempt to prevent, in their minds, I’m going to prevent further disappointment and frustration by protecting my heart, by disconnecting in that way. Sometimes that involves people who are looking for connection outside of the relationship and sometimes not. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>A person may feel like, I am tired of being disappointed, tired of getting frustrated. So in an attempt to prevent, in their minds, I’m going to prevent further disappointment and frustration by protecting my heart, by disconnecting in that way. Sometimes that involves people who are looking for connection outside of the relationship and sometimes not. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It sounds like you’re almost — I’m so struck by the word protection — so it’s almost like this sort of self-preservation.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It sounds like you’re almost — I’m so struck by the word protection — so it’s almost like this sort of self-preservation.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Yes, yeah. It may feel like this is not a nourishing place for me, it’s not a fulfilling place for me, it’s a safe place for me. Usually, when I say safe in this way, I’m meaning emotionally. And so if I don’t enjoy it anymore, but for any number of reasons I have a barrier to leaving, then I will remain physically there and legally in it, but have already withdrawn.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Yes, yeah. It may feel like this is not a nourishing place for me, it’s not a fulfilling place for me, it’s a safe place for me. Usually, when I say safe in this way, I’m meaning emotionally. And so if I don’t enjoy it anymore, but for any number of reasons I have a barrier to leaving, then I will remain physically there and legally in it, but have already withdrawn.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Noelle writes on Discord, and let me invite listeners into the conversation. Do you think you might be in a quiet divorce or have questions about what it is? Have you been in one that led to a breakup or actual divorce, or for someone close to you, how did you know it was time to call it quits? And why do you think quiet divorce is resonating today?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Noelle writes on Discord, and let me invite listeners into the conversation. Do you think you might be in a quiet divorce or have questions about what it is? Have you been in one that led to a breakup or actual divorce, or for someone close to you, how did you know it was time to call it quits? And why do you think quiet divorce is resonating today?\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You can email forum@kqed.org, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook and Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>You can email forum@kqed.org, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook and Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Noelle writes, “Many still live together due to economic constraints these days.” So Dr. Thema, why might people decide they can still exist in this space, stay married, right, but exist in the quiet divorce space? What can it offer?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Noelle writes, “Many still live together due to economic constraints these days.” So Dr. Thema, why might people decide they can still exist in this space, stay married, right, but exist in the quiet divorce space? What can it offer?\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> So there can be familiarity. Some people are anxious, understandably, about the unknown. So even though this isn’t fulfilling for me, from what they hear from those who are outside in the dating world, they may feel like there’s not a lot that I would receive out there. So at least whatever I’m getting in here, I know it, I’m familiar with it. And I’ve adapted to it, that in some ways I’ve made peace with the parts that are missing, and I’m willing to live my life without those components.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> So there can be familiarity. Some people are anxious, understandably, about the unknown. So even though this isn’t fulfilling for me, from what they hear from those who are outside in the dating world, they may feel like there’s not a lot that I would receive out there. So at least whatever I’m getting in here, I know it, I’m familiar with it. And I’ve adapted to it, that in some ways I’ve made peace with the parts that are missing, and I’m willing to live my life without those components.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Or part of me may have hope that down the road things could change. But for now, you know, I have my person. This person knows me. I know them.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Or part of me may have hope that down the road things could change. But for now, you know, I have my person. This person knows me. I know them.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then you mentioned the financial piece, and I do want to say, for some people from religious communities, there can be a spiritual peace, of them saying, I promise God I would stay, and so I’m gonna honor the covenant and stay.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And then you mentioned the financial piece, and I do want to say, for some people from religious communities, there can be a spiritual peace, of them saying, I promise God I would stay, and so I’m gonna honor the covenant and stay.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so not every person has the financial freedom to walk away, as you say, and then there’s also the cultural expectations of not getting a divorce. I also read in one article that they describe quiet divorce as almost a bridge between what they cannot leave and what they can no longer keep doing.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so not every person has the financial freedom to walk away, as you say, and then there’s also the cultural expectations of not getting a divorce. I also read in one article that they describe quiet divorce as almost a bridge between what they cannot leave and what they can no longer keep doing.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Yes, that it becomes the compromise, right? I can’t leave, but I also cannot keep putting myself through perhaps the emotional gymnastics of engaging with this person. And so I am present but absent, and that may feel like, for some people, the only solution.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Yes, that it becomes the compromise, right? I can’t leave, but I also cannot keep putting myself through perhaps the emotional gymnastics of engaging with this person. And so I am present but absent, and that may feel like, for some people, the only solution.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Rishi adds on Discord, “People also stay married due to factors like immigration and health insurance.”\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Rishi adds on Discord, “People also stay married due to factors like immigration and health insurance.”\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If the slow burn of a relationship, right, as I noted in the intro, isn’t new, why, Dr. Thema, do you think the quiet divorce phenomenon has gone viral recently? Why do you think that term is resonating with a lot of people?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>If the slow burn of a relationship, right, as I noted in the intro, isn’t new, why, Dr. Thema, do you think the quiet divorce phenomenon has gone viral recently? Why do you think that term is resonating with a lot of people?\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> I think it goes with us living in an era where people are more transparent and honest, including with strangers. So the gift of social media, gift or curse, is people use it in the way that older generations would use a journal or use prayer. So people would write about it, they would pray about it. They may tell it to their best friend, but never tell anyone else.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> I think it goes with us living in an era where people are more transparent and honest, including with strangers. So the gift of social media, gift or curse, is people use it in the way that older generations would use a journal or use prayer. So people would write about it, they would pray about it. They may tell it to their best friend, but never tell anyone else.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And now we’re in a season where people share kind of their innermost thoughts and feelings with the world. So I think the existence of it is not new, but the speaking about it openly is more new.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And now we’re in a season where people share kind of their innermost thoughts and feelings with the world. So I think the existence of it is not new, but the speaking about it openly is more new.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Again, we’re talking this hour about quiet divorces, when couples stay together but become emotionally distant, more like roommates than lovers. And we’re talking about it with Dr. Thema Bryant, a psychologist and author of the book \u003cem>Matters of the Heart\u003c/em>, and with you, our listeners, at 866-733-6786, on our social channels, Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram, and at the email address forum@kqed.org.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Again, we’re talking this hour about quiet divorces, when couples stay together but become emotionally distant, more like roommates than lovers. And we’re talking about it with Dr. Thema Bryant, a psychologist and author of the book \u003cem>Matters of the Heart\u003c/em>, and with you, our listeners, at 866-733-6786, on our social channels, Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram, and at the email address forum@kqed.org.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And let me remind listeners, you are listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Let me go to caller Thomas in Santa Rosa. Thomas, go ahead. You’re on.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And let me remind listeners, you are listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Let me go to caller Thomas in Santa Rosa. Thomas, go ahead. You’re on.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> Yes, yes, good morning. So when I heard this program coming on, this is a new term that I’ve been hearing. And also, on top of it, a new term that I heard is gray divorce. And where people are, you know, in my case, in a situation with my spouse, we’ve been together for 35 years, married, and longer than that before.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> Yes, yes, good morning. So when I heard this program coming on, this is a new term that I’ve been hearing. And also, on top of it, a new term that I heard is gray divorce. And where people are, you know, in my case, in a situation with my spouse, we’ve been together for 35 years, married, and longer than that before.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And at some point after the kids were born, and the one thing that I recall coming in between the conventional marriage was that the kids, you know, started sleeping in the bed and I was in a different room. I never left that other room. I never, you know, came back to… You know, we still continue to have a relationship that way. However, it starts there.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And at some point after the kids were born, and the one thing that I recall coming in between the conventional marriage was that the kids, you know, started sleeping in the bed and I was in a different room. I never left that other room. I never, you know, came back to… You know, we still continue to have a relationship that way. However, it starts there.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then what happens in my case is we just became so nonconfrontational. We didn’t want to go into areas that were uncomfortable. And so we avoided them. And the avoidance was what kind of separated it out.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And then what happens in my case is we just became so nonconfrontational. We didn’t want to go into areas that were uncomfortable. And so we avoided them. And the avoidance was what kind of separated it out.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And we are still living together. We have separated and we continue to live together because we know each other. It doesn’t matter. It’s very amicable. So that’s the part that’s, you know, it almost, at some point, you give up the things that you always wanted, the sexual things. It’s all gone. At this point, at 65, this is great.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And we are still living together. We have separated and we continue to live together because we know each other. It doesn’t matter. It’s very amicable. So that’s the part that’s, you know, it almost, at some point, you give up the things that you always wanted, the sexual things. It’s all gone. At this point, at 65, this is great.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Thomas, I so appreciate you sharing that story because it underscores so much, Dr. Thema, what you have been describing that can lead to that, but also why people, you know, might stay in it.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Thomas, I so appreciate you sharing that story because it underscores so much, Dr. Thema, what you have been describing that can lead to that, but also why people, you know, might stay in it.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Right. Absolutely. And I appreciate you sharing that, even the role that parenting plays, that sometimes people pour into their children but may neglect the relationship. And then when the kids get older, it’s looking like, well, you know, what do we have? What do we still have together? And can we even reconnect?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Right. Absolutely. And I appreciate you sharing that, even the role that parenting plays, that sometimes people pour into their children but may neglect the relationship. And then when the kids get older, it’s looking like, well, you know, what do we have? What do we still have together? And can we even reconnect?\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And what I have found with couples is often both people have tried, but not at the same time. So one person may have been pursuing and the other was stepping away. So it’s really important to be—\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And what I have found with couples is often both people have tried, but not at the same time. So one person may have been pursuing and the other was stepping away. So it’s really important to be—\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Engaging in the investment or the trying together simultaneously, it sounds like.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Engaging in the investment or the trying together simultaneously, it sounds like.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Yes, yes.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Yes, yes.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the phenomenon of quiet divorce. While not new, the term seems to be resonating with people, and we’re talking about why with Dr. Thema and with you, our listeners. Stay with us for more after the break. You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the phenomenon of quiet divorce. While not new, the term seems to be resonating with people, and we’re talking about why with Dr. Thema and with you, our listeners. Stay with us for more after the break. You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
}
],
"excerpt": "We talk with psychologists about why relationships quietly come undone and when it may be time to let go.",
"status": "publish",
"parent": 0,
"modified": 1789498049,
"stats": {
"hasAudio": false,
"hasVideo": false,
"hasChartOrMap": false,
"iframeSrcs": [],
"hasGoogleForm": false,
"hasGallery": false,
"hasHearkenModule": false,
"hasPolis": false,
"paragraphCount": 43,
"wordCount": 2118
},
"headData": {
"title": "Have You Navigated a ‘Quiet Divorce?’ | KQED",
"description": "We talk with psychologists about why relationships quietly come undone and when it may be time to let go.",
"ogTitle": "",
"ogDescription": "",
"ogImgId": "",
"twTitle": "",
"twDescription": "",
"twImgId": "",
"schema": {
"@context": "https://schema.org",
"@type": "Article",
"headline": "Have You Navigated a ‘Quiet Divorce?’",
"datePublished": "2026-09-14T15:37:26-07:00",
"dateModified": "2026-09-15T11:47:29-07:00",
"image": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"
}
},
"primaryCategory": {
"termId": 1623,
"slug": "podcast",
"name": "Podcast"
},
"audioUrl": "https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC4926732548.mp3",
"airdate": 1789491600,
"sticky": false,
"templateType": "standard",
"featuredImageType": "standard",
"excludeFromSiteSearch": "Include",
"articleAge": "0",
"path": "/forum/2010101915284/have-you-navigated-a-quiet-divorce",
"audioTrackLength": null,
"parsedContent": [
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Tuesday, September 15, 2026 at 10am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some marriages don’t end with a blowup or betrayal. Instead, partners slowly become emotionally disconnected – more like roommates than lovers. It’s a phenomenon that’s been dubbed a “quiet divorce.” We talk with psychologists Thema Bryant and Eli Finkel about why relationships quietly come undone, how to rebuild connection and when it may be time to let go.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Eli Finkel,\u003c/strong> professor of psychology, Northwestern University; host, “Love Factually” podcast; author, “The All-or-Nothing Marriage: How the Bes Marriages Work”\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant,\u003c/strong> psychologist and author, “Matters of the Heart”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. You’ve likely heard of quiet quitting, when it was all over social media, advocating for workers to do just the bare minimum in their jobs and focus on themselves instead. Now it seems applying that to romantic relationships is catching fire. Quiet divorcing is not ending the marriage legally, but emotionally disconnecting from it until lovers become more like roommates. And this hour we’ll look at why the phenomenon, while not new, is showing up these days on social media and the web.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Joining me first is psychologist Thema Bryant, who goes by Dr. Thema. She’s also author of \u003cem>Matters of the Heart\u003c/em>. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, Dr. Thema.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Oh, so good to be here. Thank you for covering this important topic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, so glad to be covering it with you. How would you, Dr. Thema, define quiet divorce?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Quiet divorce is when we remain physically present, legally present, but emotionally absent. So we have checked out, and it could be that both people are engaging in it, or it could be one person in the couple.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So what does it look like in a relationship? What tend to be the signs that a couple is in a quiet divorce?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> When they are going through the motions of living together, functioning, getting things done that need to be done, perhaps around parenting or paying the bills, but there is a lack of emotional intimacy, sometimes, and usually also physical and sexual intimacy. And so they may function more as roommates. Some people aren’t even speaking anymore. So they may live in the same house but are not really engaging with each other. So maybe even in different rooms, like roommates?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They could be in different rooms, but they could also show up for each other. There are a range. So some couples really have turned into friends. There’s not a romantic aspect to it. And then some really are disconnected from each other and don’t do much at all together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it sounds like you’re describing that it can be more of like a logistical relationship, or that the partners can be living together under the same roof, but maybe parallel lives as opposed to sort of intersecting lives.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. So there is not that level of active nourishment, being able to enjoy each other, being able to share on a deep level. So it has become very surface for any number of reasons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I think you’re starting to answer my next question, which is what can lead people to the point where they’re disconnecting like that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Yes. So sometimes people associate the home responsibilities with too much tension, too much drama, too much friction. And so, especially if you’re an avoidant person, avoiding conflict, avoiding difficult conversations, then engaging with this person feels like it’s gonna be too intense, or you don’t feel you have the capacity for it or the desire for it, or don’t feel like there is a payoff to it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so the shutting down. So avoidance can lead to it, also resentment and unresolved issues. So there could have been an attempt to address some of the conflict and then a person didn’t feel heard, likely multiple times, and so stopped trying. So this idea of it’s not worth it, even if I express myself or even if we have this level of deep conversation, nothing’s going to change, or this person isn’t going to. And so now I want to protect myself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A person may feel like, I am tired of being disappointed, tired of getting frustrated. So in an attempt to prevent, in their minds, I’m going to prevent further disappointment and frustration by protecting my heart, by disconnecting in that way. Sometimes that involves people who are looking for connection outside of the relationship and sometimes not. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It sounds like you’re almost — I’m so struck by the word protection — so it’s almost like this sort of self-preservation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Yes, yeah. It may feel like this is not a nourishing place for me, it’s not a fulfilling place for me, it’s a safe place for me. Usually, when I say safe in this way, I’m meaning emotionally. And so if I don’t enjoy it anymore, but for any number of reasons I have a barrier to leaving, then I will remain physically there and legally in it, but have already withdrawn.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Noelle writes on Discord, and let me invite listeners into the conversation. Do you think you might be in a quiet divorce or have questions about what it is? Have you been in one that led to a breakup or actual divorce, or for someone close to you, how did you know it was time to call it quits? And why do you think quiet divorce is resonating today?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can email forum@kqed.org, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook and Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Noelle writes, “Many still live together due to economic constraints these days.” So Dr. Thema, why might people decide they can still exist in this space, stay married, right, but exist in the quiet divorce space? What can it offer?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> So there can be familiarity. Some people are anxious, understandably, about the unknown. So even though this isn’t fulfilling for me, from what they hear from those who are outside in the dating world, they may feel like there’s not a lot that I would receive out there. So at least whatever I’m getting in here, I know it, I’m familiar with it. And I’ve adapted to it, that in some ways I’ve made peace with the parts that are missing, and I’m willing to live my life without those components.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Or part of me may have hope that down the road things could change. But for now, you know, I have my person. This person knows me. I know them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then you mentioned the financial piece, and I do want to say, for some people from religious communities, there can be a spiritual peace, of them saying, I promise God I would stay, and so I’m gonna honor the covenant and stay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so not every person has the financial freedom to walk away, as you say, and then there’s also the cultural expectations of not getting a divorce. I also read in one article that they describe quiet divorce as almost a bridge between what they cannot leave and what they can no longer keep doing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Yes, that it becomes the compromise, right? I can’t leave, but I also cannot keep putting myself through perhaps the emotional gymnastics of engaging with this person. And so I am present but absent, and that may feel like, for some people, the only solution.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Rishi adds on Discord, “People also stay married due to factors like immigration and health insurance.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If the slow burn of a relationship, right, as I noted in the intro, isn’t new, why, Dr. Thema, do you think the quiet divorce phenomenon has gone viral recently? Why do you think that term is resonating with a lot of people?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> I think it goes with us living in an era where people are more transparent and honest, including with strangers. So the gift of social media, gift or curse, is people use it in the way that older generations would use a journal or use prayer. So people would write about it, they would pray about it. They may tell it to their best friend, but never tell anyone else.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And now we’re in a season where people share kind of their innermost thoughts and feelings with the world. So I think the existence of it is not new, but the speaking about it openly is more new.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Again, we’re talking this hour about quiet divorces, when couples stay together but become emotionally distant, more like roommates than lovers. And we’re talking about it with Dr. Thema Bryant, a psychologist and author of the book \u003cem>Matters of the Heart\u003c/em>, and with you, our listeners, at 866-733-6786, on our social channels, Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram, and at the email address forum@kqed.org.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And let me remind listeners, you are listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Let me go to caller Thomas in Santa Rosa. Thomas, go ahead. You’re on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> Yes, yes, good morning. So when I heard this program coming on, this is a new term that I’ve been hearing. And also, on top of it, a new term that I heard is gray divorce. And where people are, you know, in my case, in a situation with my spouse, we’ve been together for 35 years, married, and longer than that before.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And at some point after the kids were born, and the one thing that I recall coming in between the conventional marriage was that the kids, you know, started sleeping in the bed and I was in a different room. I never left that other room. I never, you know, came back to… You know, we still continue to have a relationship that way. However, it starts there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then what happens in my case is we just became so nonconfrontational. We didn’t want to go into areas that were uncomfortable. And so we avoided them. And the avoidance was what kind of separated it out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And we are still living together. We have separated and we continue to live together because we know each other. It doesn’t matter. It’s very amicable. So that’s the part that’s, you know, it almost, at some point, you give up the things that you always wanted, the sexual things. It’s all gone. At this point, at 65, this is great.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Thomas, I so appreciate you sharing that story because it underscores so much, Dr. Thema, what you have been describing that can lead to that, but also why people, you know, might stay in it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Right. Absolutely. And I appreciate you sharing that, even the role that parenting plays, that sometimes people pour into their children but may neglect the relationship. And then when the kids get older, it’s looking like, well, you know, what do we have? What do we still have together? And can we even reconnect?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And what I have found with couples is often both people have tried, but not at the same time. So one person may have been pursuing and the other was stepping away. So it’s really important to be—\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Engaging in the investment or the trying together simultaneously, it sounds like.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Thema Bryant:\u003c/strong> Yes, yes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the phenomenon of quiet divorce. While not new, the term seems to be resonating with people, and we’re talking about why with Dr. Thema and with you, our listeners. Stay with us for more after the break. You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
}
],
"link": "/forum/2010101915284/have-you-navigated-a-quiet-divorce",
"authors": [
"243",
"11335",
"12028"
],
"programs": [
"forum_3"
],
"categories": [
"forum_1623"
],
"featImg": "forum_2010101915285",
"label": "forum_3"
},
"forum_2010101915195": {
"type": "posts",
"id": "forum_2010101915195",
"meta": {
"index": "posts_1716263798",
"site": "forum",
"id": "2010101915195",
"score": null,
"sort": [
1788903506000
]
},
"guestAuthors": [],
"slug": "what-never-trumper-sarah-longwell-learned-from-voters",
"title": "What ‘Never Trumper’ Sarah Longwell Learned From Voters",
"publishDate": 1788903506,
"format": "audio",
"headTitle": "What ‘Never Trumper’ Sarah Longwell Learned From Voters | KQED",
"labelTerm": {
"site": "forum"
},
"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Wednesday, September 9, 2026 at 10am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sarah Longwell says listening to voters is a cheat code for understanding politics — yet few people actually do it. That’s why she has spent the past eight years conducting hundreds of focus groups with voters across the political spectrum. A former Republican political strategist and founder of the media company The Bulwark, Longwell lays out a playbook to fight back and win in her new book, “How to Eat an Elephant: One Voter at a Time.” We talk with Longwell about what she has learned from voters across the political spectrum, how Democrats can seize the moment and what it will take to defeat the MAGA movement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell, \u003c/strong>publisher, The Bulwark; host, The Focus Group podcast; author, “How to Eat an Elephant: One Voter at a Time”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Donald Trump is back in the White House, but Sarah Longwell has spent the last decade talking to the voters who helped put him there. Longwell is a Republican strategist and co-founder of Republican Voters Against Trump. Her new book, \u003cem>Exit Interview: The Life and Death of My Ambitious Career in Republican Politics\u003c/em>, is about what she learned from voters, candidates, and the Republican Party during the Trump era.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sarah Longwell joins us now. Sarah, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So let’s start with the voters. You’ve been talking to Trump voters for years now. What have you learned about what motivates them?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> You know, I think one of the things that I have learned is that we have a tendency to think that people vote on issues. And voters do care about issues, but they care much more about how they feel about the candidates and what those candidates represent.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Trump is really good at making people feel like he understands them, that he sees them, that he’s fighting for them. And so when you talk to voters who support him, they often don’t talk about specific policies. They talk about how they feel about him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They’ll say things like, “He’s authentic,” or, “He tells it like it is,” or, “He doesn’t care what anybody thinks.” And those are really powerful things for people who feel like the political system has ignored them or looked down on them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> But you’ve also heard voters criticize Trump. So what is it that keeps them with him?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> There are a lot of things. One of the biggest is that they don’t trust Democrats. And I think this is something Democrats really struggle to understand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A lot of Trump voters will tell you that they don’t like everything about Trump. They may think he’s too chaotic. They may think he’s mean. They may think he’s a bad person. But they think that the alternative is worse.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that’s really important. You don’t have to love a candidate to vote for them. You just have to believe that they’re better than the other person.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Republicans have spent a lot of time over the last several years convincing their voters that Democrats are not just wrong on policy, but that they’re dangerous. That they’re coming for their way of life, that they’re coming for their children, that they’re coming for their communities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when people believe that, it makes it very hard to persuade them to vote for a Democrat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You helped launch Republican Voters Against Trump in 2020. What were you hearing from Republican voters then?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> There was a really significant group of Republicans who were deeply uncomfortable with Trump. And I think one of the things that surprised me was how many of them were willing to vote for Joe Biden.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We talked to thousands and thousands of Republican voters, and what we heard over and over again was that they didn’t want to leave the Republican Party. They didn’t want to become Democrats. They wanted Republicans to nominate somebody else.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And they were worried about what Trump was doing to the country, but they were also worried about what Trump was doing to the Republican Party.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And yet Trump won in 2024.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> He did. And I think one of the lessons for me is that you cannot simply assume that because people have concerns about Trump, those concerns will eventually cause them to leave him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There were a lot of voters who had concerns about Trump in 2020 who came back to him in 2024. Some of them thought the Biden years had been disappointing. Some of them thought the economy wasn’t working for them. Some of them were angry about immigration.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Trump was able to capitalize on those frustrations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You write in your book about spending years trying to understand voters by sitting in focus groups and listening to them talk. What does that tell you that polling doesn’t?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> I love polling. Polling is incredibly important. But when you sit in a room with eight or ten people for two hours and you let them talk, you hear things that you would never hear in a poll.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can ask a voter, “What’s your number-one issue?” And they’ll tell you one thing. But then you listen to them for two hours and you realize that what they’re actually worried about is something else.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You also hear the stories people tell themselves about why they believe what they believe. And that’s incredibly important.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because if you’re trying to persuade somebody, you need to understand not just their position, but how they got there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You’ve said that one of the biggest mistakes Democrats make is trying to persuade voters by giving them more information. Why doesn’t that work?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> Because people aren’t computers. You don’t just put more information into their heads and expect them to make a different decision.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>People make decisions based on emotion, identity, experience, trust. And then they use facts to support the conclusions they’ve already reached.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So if you want to persuade somebody, the first question is: Do they trust you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If they don’t trust you, it doesn’t matter how many facts you have.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think that’s one of the biggest challenges for Democrats right now. There are a lot of voters who simply don’t trust Democrats to understand their lives.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Is that fixable?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> I think it is. But it takes a long time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And one of the things that frustrates me is that political parties tend to think in election cycles. They want to know, what can we do between now and November? But trust doesn’t work that way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you want people to believe that you understand them, you have to actually spend time with them. You have to show up. You have to listen to them when you’re not asking for their vote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you have to be willing to hear things that you don’t like.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You spent much of your career as a Republican strategist. When did you realize that you no longer recognized the party?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> I think it happened gradually.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There wasn’t one moment where I woke up and said, “Oh, I’m not a Republican anymore.” It was more like watching the party change year after year.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I worked in Republican politics because I believed in conservative ideas. I believed in limited government. I believed in free markets. I believed in institutions. I believed in the importance of American leadership in the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then Trump came along, and suddenly a lot of those things were negotiable if they got in the way of loyalty to him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That was very hard for me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You write about loyalty a lot. Why is loyalty so important in today’s Republican Party?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> Because Trump has made loyalty the organizing principle of the party.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s not really about ideology anymore. It’s about whether you are with him or against him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you see that with politicians. Somebody can have a long record of voting for conservative policies, but if they criticize Trump, they can become a pariah overnight.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And conversely, somebody can have positions that would have been completely unacceptable to Republicans ten years ago, but if they are loyal to Trump, they’re welcomed into the party.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Does that mean ideology doesn’t matter anymore?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> I think ideology matters less than it used to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There are still people who care deeply about policy. But for a lot of voters, the Republican Party has become much more of an identity than a set of policy commitments.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that’s true of both parties, frankly. But Trump has taken it to another level.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Sarah Longwell, Republican strategist and co-founder of Republican Voters Against Trump. Her new book is \u003cem>Exit Interview: The Life and Death of My Ambitious Career in Republican Politics\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you’d like to join the conversation, you can email us at forum@kqed.org. You can also call us at 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
"blocks": [
{
"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"text": "Airdate: Wednesday, September 9, 2026 at 10am",
"level": 2
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Wednesday, September 9, 2026 at 10am\u003c/h2>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Wednesday, September 9, 2026 at 10am\u003c/h2>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Sarah Longwell says listening to voters is a cheat code for understanding politics — yet few people actually do it. That’s why she has spent the past eight years conducting hundreds of focus groups with voters across the political spectrum. A former Republican political strategist and founder of the media company The Bulwark, Longwell lays out a playbook to fight back and win in her new book, “How to Eat an Elephant: One Voter at a Time.” We talk with Longwell about what she has learned from voters across the political spectrum, how Democrats can seize the moment and what it will take to defeat the MAGA movement.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Sarah Longwell says listening to voters is a cheat code for understanding politics — yet few people actually do it. That’s why she has spent the past eight years conducting hundreds of focus groups with voters across the political spectrum. A former Republican political strategist and founder of the media company The Bulwark, Longwell lays out a playbook to fight back and win in her new book, “How to Eat an Elephant: One Voter at a Time.” We talk with Longwell about what she has learned from voters across the political spectrum, how Democrats can seize the moment and what it will take to defeat the MAGA movement.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/list",
"attrs": {
"items": [
"Sarah Longwell, publisher, The Bulwark; host, The Focus Group podcast; author, “How to Eat an Elephant: One Voter at a Time”"
],
"ordered": false,
"values": ""
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\u003c/ul>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">",
null,
"\u003c/ul>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": [
{
"blockName": "core/list-item",
"attrs": [],
"innerBlocks": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell, \u003c/strong>publisher, The Bulwark; host, The Focus Group podcast; author, “How to Eat an Elephant: One Voter at a Time”\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell, \u003c/strong>publisher, The Bulwark; host, The Focus Group podcast; author, “How to Eat an Elephant: One Voter at a Time”\u003c/li>\n"
]
}
]
},
{
"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"text": "Episode Transcript",
"level": 2
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Donald Trump is back in the White House, but Sarah Longwell has spent the last decade talking to the voters who helped put him there. Longwell is a Republican strategist and co-founder of Republican Voters Against Trump. Her new book, \u003cem>Exit Interview: The Life and Death of My Ambitious Career in Republican Politics\u003c/em>, is about what she learned from voters, candidates, and the Republican Party during the Trump era.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Donald Trump is back in the White House, but Sarah Longwell has spent the last decade talking to the voters who helped put him there. Longwell is a Republican strategist and co-founder of Republican Voters Against Trump. Her new book, \u003cem>Exit Interview: The Life and Death of My Ambitious Career in Republican Politics\u003c/em>, is about what she learned from voters, candidates, and the Republican Party during the Trump era.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Sarah Longwell joins us now. Sarah, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Sarah Longwell joins us now. Sarah, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So let’s start with the voters. You’ve been talking to Trump voters for years now. What have you learned about what motivates them?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So let’s start with the voters. You’ve been talking to Trump voters for years now. What have you learned about what motivates them?\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> You know, I think one of the things that I have learned is that we have a tendency to think that people vote on issues. And voters do care about issues, but they care much more about how they feel about the candidates and what those candidates represent.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> You know, I think one of the things that I have learned is that we have a tendency to think that people vote on issues. And voters do care about issues, but they care much more about how they feel about the candidates and what those candidates represent.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And Trump is really good at making people feel like he understands them, that he sees them, that he’s fighting for them. And so when you talk to voters who support him, they often don’t talk about specific policies. They talk about how they feel about him.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And Trump is really good at making people feel like he understands them, that he sees them, that he’s fighting for them. And so when you talk to voters who support him, they often don’t talk about specific policies. They talk about how they feel about him.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They’ll say things like, “He’s authentic,” or, “He tells it like it is,” or, “He doesn’t care what anybody thinks.” And those are really powerful things for people who feel like the political system has ignored them or looked down on them.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>They’ll say things like, “He’s authentic,” or, “He tells it like it is,” or, “He doesn’t care what anybody thinks.” And those are really powerful things for people who feel like the political system has ignored them or looked down on them.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> But you’ve also heard voters criticize Trump. So what is it that keeps them with him?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> But you’ve also heard voters criticize Trump. So what is it that keeps them with him?\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> There are a lot of things. One of the biggest is that they don’t trust Democrats. And I think this is something Democrats really struggle to understand.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> There are a lot of things. One of the biggest is that they don’t trust Democrats. And I think this is something Democrats really struggle to understand.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A lot of Trump voters will tell you that they don’t like everything about Trump. They may think he’s too chaotic. They may think he’s mean. They may think he’s a bad person. But they think that the alternative is worse.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>A lot of Trump voters will tell you that they don’t like everything about Trump. They may think he’s too chaotic. They may think he’s mean. They may think he’s a bad person. But they think that the alternative is worse.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And that’s really important. You don’t have to love a candidate to vote for them. You just have to believe that they’re better than the other person.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And that’s really important. You don’t have to love a candidate to vote for them. You just have to believe that they’re better than the other person.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And Republicans have spent a lot of time over the last several years convincing their voters that Democrats are not just wrong on policy, but that they’re dangerous. That they’re coming for their way of life, that they’re coming for their children, that they’re coming for their communities.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And Republicans have spent a lot of time over the last several years convincing their voters that Democrats are not just wrong on policy, but that they’re dangerous. That they’re coming for their way of life, that they’re coming for their children, that they’re coming for their communities.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And when people believe that, it makes it very hard to persuade them to vote for a Democrat.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And when people believe that, it makes it very hard to persuade them to vote for a Democrat.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You helped launch Republican Voters Against Trump in 2020. What were you hearing from Republican voters then?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You helped launch Republican Voters Against Trump in 2020. What were you hearing from Republican voters then?\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> There was a really significant group of Republicans who were deeply uncomfortable with Trump. And I think one of the things that surprised me was how many of them were willing to vote for Joe Biden.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> There was a really significant group of Republicans who were deeply uncomfortable with Trump. And I think one of the things that surprised me was how many of them were willing to vote for Joe Biden.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We talked to thousands and thousands of Republican voters, and what we heard over and over again was that they didn’t want to leave the Republican Party. They didn’t want to become Democrats. They wanted Republicans to nominate somebody else.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>We talked to thousands and thousands of Republican voters, and what we heard over and over again was that they didn’t want to leave the Republican Party. They didn’t want to become Democrats. They wanted Republicans to nominate somebody else.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And they were worried about what Trump was doing to the country, but they were also worried about what Trump was doing to the Republican Party.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And they were worried about what Trump was doing to the country, but they were also worried about what Trump was doing to the Republican Party.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And yet Trump won in 2024.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And yet Trump won in 2024.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> He did. And I think one of the lessons for me is that you cannot simply assume that because people have concerns about Trump, those concerns will eventually cause them to leave him.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> He did. And I think one of the lessons for me is that you cannot simply assume that because people have concerns about Trump, those concerns will eventually cause them to leave him.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There were a lot of voters who had concerns about Trump in 2020 who came back to him in 2024. Some of them thought the Biden years had been disappointing. Some of them thought the economy wasn’t working for them. Some of them were angry about immigration.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>There were a lot of voters who had concerns about Trump in 2020 who came back to him in 2024. Some of them thought the Biden years had been disappointing. Some of them thought the economy wasn’t working for them. Some of them were angry about immigration.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And Trump was able to capitalize on those frustrations.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And Trump was able to capitalize on those frustrations.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You write in your book about spending years trying to understand voters by sitting in focus groups and listening to them talk. What does that tell you that polling doesn’t?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You write in your book about spending years trying to understand voters by sitting in focus groups and listening to them talk. What does that tell you that polling doesn’t?\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> I love polling. Polling is incredibly important. But when you sit in a room with eight or ten people for two hours and you let them talk, you hear things that you would never hear in a poll.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> I love polling. Polling is incredibly important. But when you sit in a room with eight or ten people for two hours and you let them talk, you hear things that you would never hear in a poll.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You can ask a voter, “What’s your number-one issue?” And they’ll tell you one thing. But then you listen to them for two hours and you realize that what they’re actually worried about is something else.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>You can ask a voter, “What’s your number-one issue?” And they’ll tell you one thing. But then you listen to them for two hours and you realize that what they’re actually worried about is something else.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You also hear the stories people tell themselves about why they believe what they believe. And that’s incredibly important.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>You also hear the stories people tell themselves about why they believe what they believe. And that’s incredibly important.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Because if you’re trying to persuade somebody, you need to understand not just their position, but how they got there.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Because if you’re trying to persuade somebody, you need to understand not just their position, but how they got there.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You’ve said that one of the biggest mistakes Democrats make is trying to persuade voters by giving them more information. Why doesn’t that work?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You’ve said that one of the biggest mistakes Democrats make is trying to persuade voters by giving them more information. Why doesn’t that work?\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> Because people aren’t computers. You don’t just put more information into their heads and expect them to make a different decision.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> Because people aren’t computers. You don’t just put more information into their heads and expect them to make a different decision.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>People make decisions based on emotion, identity, experience, trust. And then they use facts to support the conclusions they’ve already reached.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>People make decisions based on emotion, identity, experience, trust. And then they use facts to support the conclusions they’ve already reached.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So if you want to persuade somebody, the first question is: Do they trust you?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>So if you want to persuade somebody, the first question is: Do they trust you?\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If they don’t trust you, it doesn’t matter how many facts you have.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>If they don’t trust you, it doesn’t matter how many facts you have.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think that’s one of the biggest challenges for Democrats right now. There are a lot of voters who simply don’t trust Democrats to understand their lives.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And I think that’s one of the biggest challenges for Democrats right now. There are a lot of voters who simply don’t trust Democrats to understand their lives.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Is that fixable?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Is that fixable?\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> I think it is. But it takes a long time.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> I think it is. But it takes a long time.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And one of the things that frustrates me is that political parties tend to think in election cycles. They want to know, what can we do between now and November? But trust doesn’t work that way.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And one of the things that frustrates me is that political parties tend to think in election cycles. They want to know, what can we do between now and November? But trust doesn’t work that way.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you want people to believe that you understand them, you have to actually spend time with them. You have to show up. You have to listen to them when you’re not asking for their vote.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>If you want people to believe that you understand them, you have to actually spend time with them. You have to show up. You have to listen to them when you’re not asking for their vote.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And you have to be willing to hear things that you don’t like.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And you have to be willing to hear things that you don’t like.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You spent much of your career as a Republican strategist. When did you realize that you no longer recognized the party?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You spent much of your career as a Republican strategist. When did you realize that you no longer recognized the party?\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> I think it happened gradually.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> I think it happened gradually.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There wasn’t one moment where I woke up and said, “Oh, I’m not a Republican anymore.” It was more like watching the party change year after year.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>There wasn’t one moment where I woke up and said, “Oh, I’m not a Republican anymore.” It was more like watching the party change year after year.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I worked in Republican politics because I believed in conservative ideas. I believed in limited government. I believed in free markets. I believed in institutions. I believed in the importance of American leadership in the world.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>I worked in Republican politics because I believed in conservative ideas. I believed in limited government. I believed in free markets. I believed in institutions. I believed in the importance of American leadership in the world.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then Trump came along, and suddenly a lot of those things were negotiable if they got in the way of loyalty to him.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And then Trump came along, and suddenly a lot of those things were negotiable if they got in the way of loyalty to him.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That was very hard for me.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>That was very hard for me.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You write about loyalty a lot. Why is loyalty so important in today’s Republican Party?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You write about loyalty a lot. Why is loyalty so important in today’s Republican Party?\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> Because Trump has made loyalty the organizing principle of the party.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> Because Trump has made loyalty the organizing principle of the party.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s not really about ideology anymore. It’s about whether you are with him or against him.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>It’s not really about ideology anymore. It’s about whether you are with him or against him.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And you see that with politicians. Somebody can have a long record of voting for conservative policies, but if they criticize Trump, they can become a pariah overnight.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And you see that with politicians. Somebody can have a long record of voting for conservative policies, but if they criticize Trump, they can become a pariah overnight.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And conversely, somebody can have positions that would have been completely unacceptable to Republicans ten years ago, but if they are loyal to Trump, they’re welcomed into the party.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And conversely, somebody can have positions that would have been completely unacceptable to Republicans ten years ago, but if they are loyal to Trump, they’re welcomed into the party.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Does that mean ideology doesn’t matter anymore?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Does that mean ideology doesn’t matter anymore?\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> I think ideology matters less than it used to.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> I think ideology matters less than it used to.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There are still people who care deeply about policy. But for a lot of voters, the Republican Party has become much more of an identity than a set of policy commitments.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>There are still people who care deeply about policy. But for a lot of voters, the Republican Party has become much more of an identity than a set of policy commitments.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And that’s true of both parties, frankly. But Trump has taken it to another level.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And that’s true of both parties, frankly. But Trump has taken it to another level.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Sarah Longwell, Republican strategist and co-founder of Republican Voters Against Trump. Her new book is \u003cem>Exit Interview: The Life and Death of My Ambitious Career in Republican Politics\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Sarah Longwell, Republican strategist and co-founder of Republican Voters Against Trump. Her new book is \u003cem>Exit Interview: The Life and Death of My Ambitious Career in Republican Politics\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you’d like to join the conversation, you can email us at forum@kqed.org. You can also call us at 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>If you’d like to join the conversation, you can email us at forum@kqed.org. You can also call us at 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
}
],
"excerpt": "We'll talk about voters across the political spectrum and how Democrats can seize the moment.",
"status": "publish",
"parent": 0,
"modified": 1789498011,
"stats": {
"hasAudio": false,
"hasVideo": false,
"hasChartOrMap": false,
"iframeSrcs": [],
"hasGoogleForm": false,
"hasGallery": false,
"hasHearkenModule": false,
"hasPolis": false,
"paragraphCount": 58,
"wordCount": 1664
},
"headData": {
"title": "What ‘Never Trumper’ Sarah Longwell Learned From Voters | KQED",
"description": "We'll talk about voters across the political spectrum and how Democrats can seize the moment.",
"ogTitle": "",
"ogDescription": "",
"ogImgId": "",
"twTitle": "",
"twDescription": "",
"twImgId": "",
"schema": {
"@context": "https://schema.org",
"@type": "Article",
"headline": "What ‘Never Trumper’ Sarah Longwell Learned From Voters",
"datePublished": "2026-09-08T14:38:26-07:00",
"dateModified": "2026-09-15T11:46:51-07:00",
"image": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"
}
},
"primaryCategory": {
"termId": 1623,
"slug": "podcast",
"name": "Podcast"
},
"audioUrl": "https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC4100957296.mp3",
"airdate": 1788973200,
"sticky": false,
"templateType": "standard",
"featuredImageType": "standard",
"excludeFromSiteSearch": "Include",
"articleAge": "0",
"path": "/forum/2010101915195/what-never-trumper-sarah-longwell-learned-from-voters",
"audioTrackLength": null,
"parsedContent": [
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Wednesday, September 9, 2026 at 10am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sarah Longwell says listening to voters is a cheat code for understanding politics — yet few people actually do it. That’s why she has spent the past eight years conducting hundreds of focus groups with voters across the political spectrum. A former Republican political strategist and founder of the media company The Bulwark, Longwell lays out a playbook to fight back and win in her new book, “How to Eat an Elephant: One Voter at a Time.” We talk with Longwell about what she has learned from voters across the political spectrum, how Democrats can seize the moment and what it will take to defeat the MAGA movement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell, \u003c/strong>publisher, The Bulwark; host, The Focus Group podcast; author, “How to Eat an Elephant: One Voter at a Time”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Donald Trump is back in the White House, but Sarah Longwell has spent the last decade talking to the voters who helped put him there. Longwell is a Republican strategist and co-founder of Republican Voters Against Trump. Her new book, \u003cem>Exit Interview: The Life and Death of My Ambitious Career in Republican Politics\u003c/em>, is about what she learned from voters, candidates, and the Republican Party during the Trump era.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sarah Longwell joins us now. Sarah, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So let’s start with the voters. You’ve been talking to Trump voters for years now. What have you learned about what motivates them?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> You know, I think one of the things that I have learned is that we have a tendency to think that people vote on issues. And voters do care about issues, but they care much more about how they feel about the candidates and what those candidates represent.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Trump is really good at making people feel like he understands them, that he sees them, that he’s fighting for them. And so when you talk to voters who support him, they often don’t talk about specific policies. They talk about how they feel about him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They’ll say things like, “He’s authentic,” or, “He tells it like it is,” or, “He doesn’t care what anybody thinks.” And those are really powerful things for people who feel like the political system has ignored them or looked down on them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> But you’ve also heard voters criticize Trump. So what is it that keeps them with him?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> There are a lot of things. One of the biggest is that they don’t trust Democrats. And I think this is something Democrats really struggle to understand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A lot of Trump voters will tell you that they don’t like everything about Trump. They may think he’s too chaotic. They may think he’s mean. They may think he’s a bad person. But they think that the alternative is worse.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that’s really important. You don’t have to love a candidate to vote for them. You just have to believe that they’re better than the other person.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Republicans have spent a lot of time over the last several years convincing their voters that Democrats are not just wrong on policy, but that they’re dangerous. That they’re coming for their way of life, that they’re coming for their children, that they’re coming for their communities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when people believe that, it makes it very hard to persuade them to vote for a Democrat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You helped launch Republican Voters Against Trump in 2020. What were you hearing from Republican voters then?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> There was a really significant group of Republicans who were deeply uncomfortable with Trump. And I think one of the things that surprised me was how many of them were willing to vote for Joe Biden.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We talked to thousands and thousands of Republican voters, and what we heard over and over again was that they didn’t want to leave the Republican Party. They didn’t want to become Democrats. They wanted Republicans to nominate somebody else.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And they were worried about what Trump was doing to the country, but they were also worried about what Trump was doing to the Republican Party.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And yet Trump won in 2024.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> He did. And I think one of the lessons for me is that you cannot simply assume that because people have concerns about Trump, those concerns will eventually cause them to leave him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There were a lot of voters who had concerns about Trump in 2020 who came back to him in 2024. Some of them thought the Biden years had been disappointing. Some of them thought the economy wasn’t working for them. Some of them were angry about immigration.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Trump was able to capitalize on those frustrations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You write in your book about spending years trying to understand voters by sitting in focus groups and listening to them talk. What does that tell you that polling doesn’t?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> I love polling. Polling is incredibly important. But when you sit in a room with eight or ten people for two hours and you let them talk, you hear things that you would never hear in a poll.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can ask a voter, “What’s your number-one issue?” And they’ll tell you one thing. But then you listen to them for two hours and you realize that what they’re actually worried about is something else.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You also hear the stories people tell themselves about why they believe what they believe. And that’s incredibly important.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because if you’re trying to persuade somebody, you need to understand not just their position, but how they got there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You’ve said that one of the biggest mistakes Democrats make is trying to persuade voters by giving them more information. Why doesn’t that work?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> Because people aren’t computers. You don’t just put more information into their heads and expect them to make a different decision.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>People make decisions based on emotion, identity, experience, trust. And then they use facts to support the conclusions they’ve already reached.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So if you want to persuade somebody, the first question is: Do they trust you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If they don’t trust you, it doesn’t matter how many facts you have.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think that’s one of the biggest challenges for Democrats right now. There are a lot of voters who simply don’t trust Democrats to understand their lives.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Is that fixable?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> I think it is. But it takes a long time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And one of the things that frustrates me is that political parties tend to think in election cycles. They want to know, what can we do between now and November? But trust doesn’t work that way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you want people to believe that you understand them, you have to actually spend time with them. You have to show up. You have to listen to them when you’re not asking for their vote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you have to be willing to hear things that you don’t like.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You spent much of your career as a Republican strategist. When did you realize that you no longer recognized the party?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> I think it happened gradually.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There wasn’t one moment where I woke up and said, “Oh, I’m not a Republican anymore.” It was more like watching the party change year after year.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I worked in Republican politics because I believed in conservative ideas. I believed in limited government. I believed in free markets. I believed in institutions. I believed in the importance of American leadership in the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then Trump came along, and suddenly a lot of those things were negotiable if they got in the way of loyalty to him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That was very hard for me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You write about loyalty a lot. Why is loyalty so important in today’s Republican Party?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> Because Trump has made loyalty the organizing principle of the party.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s not really about ideology anymore. It’s about whether you are with him or against him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you see that with politicians. Somebody can have a long record of voting for conservative policies, but if they criticize Trump, they can become a pariah overnight.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And conversely, somebody can have positions that would have been completely unacceptable to Republicans ten years ago, but if they are loyal to Trump, they’re welcomed into the party.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Does that mean ideology doesn’t matter anymore?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Longwell:\u003c/strong> I think ideology matters less than it used to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There are still people who care deeply about policy. But for a lot of voters, the Republican Party has become much more of an identity than a set of policy commitments.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that’s true of both parties, frankly. But Trump has taken it to another level.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Sarah Longwell, Republican strategist and co-founder of Republican Voters Against Trump. Her new book is \u003cem>Exit Interview: The Life and Death of My Ambitious Career in Republican Politics\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you’d like to join the conversation, you can email us at forum@kqed.org. You can also call us at 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
}
],
"link": "/forum/2010101915195/what-never-trumper-sarah-longwell-learned-from-voters",
"authors": [
"243",
"12028"
],
"categories": [
"forum_1623"
],
"featImg": "forum_2010101915199",
"label": "forum"
},
"forum_2010101915059": {
"type": "posts",
"id": "forum_2010101915059",
"meta": {
"index": "posts_1716263798",
"site": "forum",
"id": "2010101915059",
"score": null,
"sort": [
1787961464000
]
},
"guestAuthors": [],
"slug": "the-long-reach-of-the-marinaissance",
"title": "The Long Reach of the “Marinaissance” ",
"publishDate": 1787961464,
"format": "audio",
"headTitle": "The Long Reach of the “Marinaissance” | KQED",
"labelTerm": {
"term": 3,
"site": "forum"
},
"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Monday, August 31, 2026 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Growing up in San Rafael in the 80’s and 90’s, writer David Perlis sensed that he had just missed something incredible. “I wanted to know what happened here before I was born,” he writes. That kicked off a quest to uncover Marin County’s “seismic cultural awakening” throughout the midcentury that he chronicles in his new book “Morning in Marin: Zen, Drugs, and Ewoks on the California Coast.” Perlis argues that what emerged from “the Marinaissance” was adopted by popular culture across America — yet its influence has been overlooked. We talk to Perlis about the long reach of Marin’s cultural influence and the legendary artists and thought leaders who found refuge there, including Alan Watts, Robin Williams, Anna Halprin, George Lucas and many more.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>David Perlis\u003c/strong>, writer, musician, filmmaker and author, “Morning in Marin: Zen, Drugs, and Ewoks on the California Coast”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. To hear David Perlis tell it in his new book, \u003cem>Morning in Marin: Zen, Drugs, and Ewoks on the California Coast\u003c/em>, the Marin thing really begins when some people started to party on an old ferry, emceed by Yonko Varda, down at the waterfront in Sausalito. And next thing you knew, Marin was a crucial artistic center known around the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>How? Why? Quote, “Because of the fault and the mountain, the moon and the tides, because for so long there were no bridges and then there were,” Perlis writes. “Because of the radio and small presses and breathtaking risk, Marin was the future. Maybe, too, because Eastern art, poetry and philosophy in many different guises began to diffuse into America from this place. For Pacific exchanges, what I learned can be summed up like this: Oakland was the port, but Marin was portal.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Perlis calls this time period, from about 1950-ish to 1980-ish, the Marinessance — a seismic cultural awakening encompassing literature, music, dance, painting, philosophy, religion, architecture and film. If that sounds grand, let me assure you that it might even undersell what happened in Marin right under the noses of the rich and mostly conservative people who lived up there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And we have Perlis here with us in the studio. Welcome, David.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Perlis:\u003c/strong> Thanks, Alexis. Thanks for having me on the show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So what’s your connection to Marin? What made you want to do this book?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Perlis:\u003c/strong> Well, I grew up in suburban Spielberg in San Rafael, very much a “kids on bikes” neighborhood where an alien might land in your backyard, although unfortunately no alien ever did. I never got to bond in that way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the short answer is because I had to, because there was a magic I sensed in the air in suburban San Rafael and the hills of Mill Valley, driving by the houseboats, Waldo Point, and looking out the window as a kid and saying, “What are those, and how long have they been there, and who made them?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It was a magic that called to me over the years until I was old enough to understand what it was asking. And that was to solve the mystery and to find the source of the magic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I looked around for a book that would explain that to me, and I found the answers scattered across hundreds, if not thousands, of books. And it felt important to put them all in one place. And I think maybe that’s what Marin was calling on me to do — put it all in one place, and so that other people could experience it and to solve the mystery and to find out that, in fact, yes, there was a divergent, distinctive awakening that took place in my hometown of Marin County.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Do you think that one reason there hasn’t been this sort of regional explanation is that people who are, say, exploring the growth of nature writing and poetry in America in the mid-century are like, okay, it’s like Gary Snyder and it’s the Bolinas poets, or people who were approaching George Lucas in film are like — they go down that route. And what taking this regional approach allows you to do is to sort of draw all the connections individual disciplines don’t do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Perlis:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. There are many wonderful books written about the Grateful Dead. There are many books written by George Lucas and Industrial Light & Magic and \u003cem>Star Wars\u003c/em>. But what they don’t have is the context to connect Philip K. Dick and Alan Watts and George Lucas and the Halprin family, Lawrence and Anna Halprin and Daria — to see that they were all part of the same awakening and that there were some common beliefs and values that underlie their work, which were shared and intrinsically tied to the landscape of Marin County.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. What do you think were the values that informed the Marinessance?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Perlis:\u003c/strong> Well, when we talk about the Marinessance, we are talking about almost a half century. And in some ways, maybe it’s still going. I do think that the embers still glow.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But — so we have to think about the beliefs and values as changing over that period of time, and the way that they were interpreted throughout the movement. But there are three that I think really consistently informed the movement from the beginning to the end.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One would be an embrace of Eastern philosophy and mysticism. And we have to see this in the context of World War II, because the artists who were embracing this were actually rebelling. They were rejecting the old world and they were embracing this Eastern mysticism and philosophy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There was a long streak of anti-Asian racism in California going back to when the Chinese came over to build the railroad. And so these people embracing Buddhism, embracing Taoism, was an absolute rebellion.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’d say a second core principle would be the idea of self-sufficiency. Yes, as advocated for by the transcendentalists like Emerson and Thoreau, but more so and especially as practiced by Indigenous cultures of the Americas, especially the Coast Miwok of Marin County, because they exhibited a certain self-sufficiency in making their own clothes, their own shelters, growing their own food and having a deep respect for nature and seeing their resources as not bottomless.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Whereas the old world had this attitude often that Indigenous cultures were somehow inferior, primitive, savage, the Marinessance was one of the first movements in America to see these cultures as equal to, if not superior to, the cultures, the so-called civilized cultures of the old world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I would say the third core principle that lasted throughout was this idea of human potential, which took the form of experimentation, which is where the drugs of the subtitle come in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And these drugs go back to the early Marinessance. Speed was huge, because think of the productivity that can be achieved while on speed. The instant enlightenment of acid.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then I would also say experimentation, but also, as you mentioned earlier, risk-taking — human potential. Putting it all on the line.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think too often these days artists do not put it all on the line in the name of achieving purity of artistic vision. These people risked their homes, they risked their livelihoods, they risked their sanity to achieve purity of artistic vision, which is really the truest and purest form of creation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with David Perlis about his book, \u003cem>Morning in Marin: Zen, Drugs, and Ewoks on the California Coast\u003c/em>. Listen, we want to hear from you. You’re hearing David’s theory about how Marin came to be the cultural center that it is. What do you think? What is it about Marin that has generated such tremendous creativity over these decades?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The number is 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can email forum@kqed.org. You can find us on social media, BlueSky, Instagram, Discord or @KQEDForum.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I sent out a note about the Marinessance in this book to my newsletter subscribers. Got a ton of people writing in, stories like this, for example.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Tom wrote in to say, “I was in the Navy from ’66 to ’70. Sometime during one of our import periods, a few of us decided to go to a concert, which was being held on Mount Tam. We drove over, parked, and then started the trek up to concert. As you can imagine, our haircut left no doubt that we were in the service. A few insults here and there as we walked up the road, and then this big convertible pulls up and asks us if we wanted a ride up. Came to find out he was a local disc jockey and was an emcee at the concert. We got in, got great access, and had a wonderful time. Just one of the smaller stories of the Marinessance there.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Why don’t we go to where you begin the book? So, you know, if you tell someone Eastern philosophy, self-sufficiency, interest in Indigenous — they might be like, “Flash, Gary Snyder.” But you have a bunch of other figures who were also crucial, even if they became not necessarily international or globally famous. Tell us about Elsa Gidlow and Violet Tommy, Henry Anderson.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Perlis:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I would love to talk about Elsa Gidlow. The book does start with her for several reasons. And one is, basically, that she was one of the first artists to permanently reside there who held those core beliefs and values in Marin County, and she faced quite a lot of adversity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Elsa, for those of you who don’t know, was a poet and a radical feminist who was a co-founder of an intentional community called Druid Heights, on Mount Tamalpais. But before that, she came to the town of Fairfax, which was largely summer homes and things of that nature, and she established herself there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She is known for writing one of the first openly gay poetry volumes, called \u003cem>On a Grey Thread\u003c/em>. And she faced some persecution in Fairfax, which I thought was an interesting way to begin the story because while you did have an incredible artistic awakening in Marin County, some of Marin County’s mainstream Marin County was very conservative and resisted that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And she was actually scrutinized by the Tenney Committee for Un-American Activities because her neighbors didn’t like that she was hanging out with Chinese people, didn’t like that she was living with a woman. And though her name was ultimately cleared, it was more than enough for her to decide to go live up on top of the mountain and get out of Fairfax at that time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I mean, I feel like these people are all part of sort of the committee to promote anti-American activity. It’s kind of like the whole point of the thing, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, it’s interesting, too, because you note the kind of Sausalito boat life, too. That’s another one. I mean, Yonko Varda comes across in this book as deadbeat, libertine, bohemian, but also absolute heartbeat or soul of this early movement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Perlis:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I don’t like to use the word hippie because I think it can be perceived as a little derogatory to just the young people who are doing their own thing, you know. But Yonko was probably the first hippie, and long before — in 1949, 1950, way before the Summer of Love — Yonko was showing people how to dress the way they felt inside and to behave the way they felt inside and give permission.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He was an authentic European bohemian in Sausalito. And, you know, you drive by Waldo Point now and all the houseboats are lined up in these neat little rows. But you have to think back to the 1950s. It was a jumble out there, you know. There were planks and gangways, and this is how people were getting across the boats, and they were flushing their sewage into the water and the tides weren’t quite carrying it out. So it might have smelled a little bit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It was a wild and woolly place out there with Varda, who also held these wonderful parties. There were many kind of nexuses of the Marinessance, including Druid Heights, including the ferryboat \u003cem>Vallejo\u003c/em>, where Yonko Varda lived, that really brought people to Marin and brought the great minds of the Marinessance together to share and exchange ideas.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I do love when Anne Halprin says, “All of us went to Varda’s barge all the time for wild parties. It wasn’t the drug period at all. It was just going to a party with your friends and having a good time.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Perlis:\u003c/strong> Awesome!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Listen, we’re talking with David Perlis about his new book, \u003cem>Morning in Marin: Zen, Drugs, and Ewoks on the California Coast\u003c/em>. Maybe you’ve got a Marinessance story to share with us. You can give us a call, 866-733-6786. Were you there? I bet you were. Forum@kqed.org.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n",
"blocks": [
{
"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"text": "Airdate: Monday, August 31, 2026 at 9 AM",
"level": 2
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Monday, August 31, 2026 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Monday, August 31, 2026 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Growing up in San Rafael in the 80’s and 90’s, writer David Perlis sensed that he had just missed something incredible. “I wanted to know what happened here before I was born,” he writes. That kicked off a quest to uncover Marin County’s “seismic cultural awakening” throughout the midcentury that he chronicles in his new book “Morning in Marin: Zen, Drugs, and Ewoks on the California Coast.” Perlis argues that what emerged from “the Marinaissance” was adopted by popular culture across America — yet its influence has been overlooked. We talk to Perlis about the long reach of Marin’s cultural influence and the legendary artists and thought leaders who found refuge there, including Alan Watts, Robin Williams, Anna Halprin, George Lucas and many more.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Growing up in San Rafael in the 80’s and 90’s, writer David Perlis sensed that he had just missed something incredible. “I wanted to know what happened here before I was born,” he writes. That kicked off a quest to uncover Marin County’s “seismic cultural awakening” throughout the midcentury that he chronicles in his new book “Morning in Marin: Zen, Drugs, and Ewoks on the California Coast.” Perlis argues that what emerged from “the Marinaissance” was adopted by popular culture across America — yet its influence has been overlooked. We talk to Perlis about the long reach of Marin’s cultural influence and the legendary artists and thought leaders who found refuge there, including Alan Watts, Robin Williams, Anna Halprin, George Lucas and many more.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/list",
"attrs": {
"items": [
"David Perlis, writer, musician, filmmaker and author, “Morning in Marin: Zen, Drugs, and Ewoks on the California Coast”"
],
"ordered": false,
"values": ""
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\u003c/ul>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">",
null,
"\u003c/ul>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": [
{
"blockName": "core/list-item",
"attrs": [],
"innerBlocks": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>David Perlis\u003c/strong>, writer, musician, filmmaker and author, “Morning in Marin: Zen, Drugs, and Ewoks on the California Coast”\u003c/li>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>David Perlis\u003c/strong>, writer, musician, filmmaker and author, “Morning in Marin: Zen, Drugs, and Ewoks on the California Coast”\u003c/li>\n"
]
}
]
},
{
"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"text": "Episode Transcript",
"level": 2
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. To hear David Perlis tell it in his new book, \u003cem>Morning in Marin: Zen, Drugs, and Ewoks on the California Coast\u003c/em>, the Marin thing really begins when some people started to party on an old ferry, emceed by Yonko Varda, down at the waterfront in Sausalito. And next thing you knew, Marin was a crucial artistic center known around the world.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. To hear David Perlis tell it in his new book, \u003cem>Morning in Marin: Zen, Drugs, and Ewoks on the California Coast\u003c/em>, the Marin thing really begins when some people started to party on an old ferry, emceed by Yonko Varda, down at the waterfront in Sausalito. And next thing you knew, Marin was a crucial artistic center known around the world.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>How? Why? Quote, “Because of the fault and the mountain, the moon and the tides, because for so long there were no bridges and then there were,” Perlis writes. “Because of the radio and small presses and breathtaking risk, Marin was the future. Maybe, too, because Eastern art, poetry and philosophy in many different guises began to diffuse into America from this place. For Pacific exchanges, what I learned can be summed up like this: Oakland was the port, but Marin was portal.”\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>How? Why? Quote, “Because of the fault and the mountain, the moon and the tides, because for so long there were no bridges and then there were,” Perlis writes. “Because of the radio and small presses and breathtaking risk, Marin was the future. Maybe, too, because Eastern art, poetry and philosophy in many different guises began to diffuse into America from this place. For Pacific exchanges, what I learned can be summed up like this: Oakland was the port, but Marin was portal.”\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Perlis calls this time period, from about 1950-ish to 1980-ish, the Marinessance — a seismic cultural awakening encompassing literature, music, dance, painting, philosophy, religion, architecture and film. If that sounds grand, let me assure you that it might even undersell what happened in Marin right under the noses of the rich and mostly conservative people who lived up there.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Perlis calls this time period, from about 1950-ish to 1980-ish, the Marinessance — a seismic cultural awakening encompassing literature, music, dance, painting, philosophy, religion, architecture and film. If that sounds grand, let me assure you that it might even undersell what happened in Marin right under the noses of the rich and mostly conservative people who lived up there.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And we have Perlis here with us in the studio. Welcome, David.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And we have Perlis here with us in the studio. Welcome, David.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Perlis:\u003c/strong> Thanks, Alexis. Thanks for having me on the show.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Perlis:\u003c/strong> Thanks, Alexis. Thanks for having me on the show.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So what’s your connection to Marin? What made you want to do this book?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So what’s your connection to Marin? What made you want to do this book?\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Perlis:\u003c/strong> Well, I grew up in suburban Spielberg in San Rafael, very much a “kids on bikes” neighborhood where an alien might land in your backyard, although unfortunately no alien ever did. I never got to bond in that way.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Perlis:\u003c/strong> Well, I grew up in suburban Spielberg in San Rafael, very much a “kids on bikes” neighborhood where an alien might land in your backyard, although unfortunately no alien ever did. I never got to bond in that way.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the short answer is because I had to, because there was a magic I sensed in the air in suburban San Rafael and the hills of Mill Valley, driving by the houseboats, Waldo Point, and looking out the window as a kid and saying, “What are those, and how long have they been there, and who made them?”\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And the short answer is because I had to, because there was a magic I sensed in the air in suburban San Rafael and the hills of Mill Valley, driving by the houseboats, Waldo Point, and looking out the window as a kid and saying, “What are those, and how long have they been there, and who made them?”\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It was a magic that called to me over the years until I was old enough to understand what it was asking. And that was to solve the mystery and to find the source of the magic.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>It was a magic that called to me over the years until I was old enough to understand what it was asking. And that was to solve the mystery and to find the source of the magic.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I looked around for a book that would explain that to me, and I found the answers scattered across hundreds, if not thousands, of books. And it felt important to put them all in one place. And I think maybe that’s what Marin was calling on me to do — put it all in one place, and so that other people could experience it and to solve the mystery and to find out that, in fact, yes, there was a divergent, distinctive awakening that took place in my hometown of Marin County.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And I looked around for a book that would explain that to me, and I found the answers scattered across hundreds, if not thousands, of books. And it felt important to put them all in one place. And I think maybe that’s what Marin was calling on me to do — put it all in one place, and so that other people could experience it and to solve the mystery and to find out that, in fact, yes, there was a divergent, distinctive awakening that took place in my hometown of Marin County.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Do you think that one reason there hasn’t been this sort of regional explanation is that people who are, say, exploring the growth of nature writing and poetry in America in the mid-century are like, okay, it’s like Gary Snyder and it’s the Bolinas poets, or people who were approaching George Lucas in film are like — they go down that route. And what taking this regional approach allows you to do is to sort of draw all the connections individual disciplines don’t do.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Do you think that one reason there hasn’t been this sort of regional explanation is that people who are, say, exploring the growth of nature writing and poetry in America in the mid-century are like, okay, it’s like Gary Snyder and it’s the Bolinas poets, or people who were approaching George Lucas in film are like — they go down that route. And what taking this regional approach allows you to do is to sort of draw all the connections individual disciplines don’t do.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Perlis:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. There are many wonderful books written about the Grateful Dead. There are many books written by George Lucas and Industrial Light & Magic and \u003cem>Star Wars\u003c/em>. But what they don’t have is the context to connect Philip K. Dick and Alan Watts and George Lucas and the Halprin family, Lawrence and Anna Halprin and Daria — to see that they were all part of the same awakening and that there were some common beliefs and values that underlie their work, which were shared and intrinsically tied to the landscape of Marin County.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Perlis:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. There are many wonderful books written about the Grateful Dead. There are many books written by George Lucas and Industrial Light & Magic and \u003cem>Star Wars\u003c/em>. But what they don’t have is the context to connect Philip K. Dick and Alan Watts and George Lucas and the Halprin family, Lawrence and Anna Halprin and Daria — to see that they were all part of the same awakening and that there were some common beliefs and values that underlie their work, which were shared and intrinsically tied to the landscape of Marin County.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. What do you think were the values that informed the Marinessance?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. What do you think were the values that informed the Marinessance?\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Perlis:\u003c/strong> Well, when we talk about the Marinessance, we are talking about almost a half century. And in some ways, maybe it’s still going. I do think that the embers still glow.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Perlis:\u003c/strong> Well, when we talk about the Marinessance, we are talking about almost a half century. And in some ways, maybe it’s still going. I do think that the embers still glow.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But — so we have to think about the beliefs and values as changing over that period of time, and the way that they were interpreted throughout the movement. But there are three that I think really consistently informed the movement from the beginning to the end.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>But — so we have to think about the beliefs and values as changing over that period of time, and the way that they were interpreted throughout the movement. But there are three that I think really consistently informed the movement from the beginning to the end.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>One would be an embrace of Eastern philosophy and mysticism. And we have to see this in the context of World War II, because the artists who were embracing this were actually rebelling. They were rejecting the old world and they were embracing this Eastern mysticism and philosophy.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>One would be an embrace of Eastern philosophy and mysticism. And we have to see this in the context of World War II, because the artists who were embracing this were actually rebelling. They were rejecting the old world and they were embracing this Eastern mysticism and philosophy.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There was a long streak of anti-Asian racism in California going back to when the Chinese came over to build the railroad. And so these people embracing Buddhism, embracing Taoism, was an absolute rebellion.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>There was a long streak of anti-Asian racism in California going back to when the Chinese came over to build the railroad. And so these people embracing Buddhism, embracing Taoism, was an absolute rebellion.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’d say a second core principle would be the idea of self-sufficiency. Yes, as advocated for by the transcendentalists like Emerson and Thoreau, but more so and especially as practiced by Indigenous cultures of the Americas, especially the Coast Miwok of Marin County, because they exhibited a certain self-sufficiency in making their own clothes, their own shelters, growing their own food and having a deep respect for nature and seeing their resources as not bottomless.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>I’d say a second core principle would be the idea of self-sufficiency. Yes, as advocated for by the transcendentalists like Emerson and Thoreau, but more so and especially as practiced by Indigenous cultures of the Americas, especially the Coast Miwok of Marin County, because they exhibited a certain self-sufficiency in making their own clothes, their own shelters, growing their own food and having a deep respect for nature and seeing their resources as not bottomless.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Whereas the old world had this attitude often that Indigenous cultures were somehow inferior, primitive, savage, the Marinessance was one of the first movements in America to see these cultures as equal to, if not superior to, the cultures, the so-called civilized cultures of the old world.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Whereas the old world had this attitude often that Indigenous cultures were somehow inferior, primitive, savage, the Marinessance was one of the first movements in America to see these cultures as equal to, if not superior to, the cultures, the so-called civilized cultures of the old world.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I would say the third core principle that lasted throughout was this idea of human potential, which took the form of experimentation, which is where the drugs of the subtitle come in.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And I would say the third core principle that lasted throughout was this idea of human potential, which took the form of experimentation, which is where the drugs of the subtitle come in.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And these drugs go back to the early Marinessance. Speed was huge, because think of the productivity that can be achieved while on speed. The instant enlightenment of acid.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And these drugs go back to the early Marinessance. Speed was huge, because think of the productivity that can be achieved while on speed. The instant enlightenment of acid.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then I would also say experimentation, but also, as you mentioned earlier, risk-taking — human potential. Putting it all on the line.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And then I would also say experimentation, but also, as you mentioned earlier, risk-taking — human potential. Putting it all on the line.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think too often these days artists do not put it all on the line in the name of achieving purity of artistic vision. These people risked their homes, they risked their livelihoods, they risked their sanity to achieve purity of artistic vision, which is really the truest and purest form of creation.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>I think too often these days artists do not put it all on the line in the name of achieving purity of artistic vision. These people risked their homes, they risked their livelihoods, they risked their sanity to achieve purity of artistic vision, which is really the truest and purest form of creation.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with David Perlis about his book, \u003cem>Morning in Marin: Zen, Drugs, and Ewoks on the California Coast\u003c/em>. Listen, we want to hear from you. You’re hearing David’s theory about how Marin came to be the cultural center that it is. What do you think? What is it about Marin that has generated such tremendous creativity over these decades?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with David Perlis about his book, \u003cem>Morning in Marin: Zen, Drugs, and Ewoks on the California Coast\u003c/em>. Listen, we want to hear from you. You’re hearing David’s theory about how Marin came to be the cultural center that it is. What do you think? What is it about Marin that has generated such tremendous creativity over these decades?\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The number is 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can email forum@kqed.org. You can find us on social media, BlueSky, Instagram, Discord or @KQEDForum.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>The number is 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can email forum@kqed.org. You can find us on social media, BlueSky, Instagram, Discord or @KQEDForum.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I sent out a note about the Marinessance in this book to my newsletter subscribers. Got a ton of people writing in, stories like this, for example.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>I sent out a note about the Marinessance in this book to my newsletter subscribers. Got a ton of people writing in, stories like this, for example.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Tom wrote in to say, “I was in the Navy from ’66 to ’70. Sometime during one of our import periods, a few of us decided to go to a concert, which was being held on Mount Tam. We drove over, parked, and then started the trek up to concert. As you can imagine, our haircut left no doubt that we were in the service. A few insults here and there as we walked up the road, and then this big convertible pulls up and asks us if we wanted a ride up. Came to find out he was a local disc jockey and was an emcee at the concert. We got in, got great access, and had a wonderful time. Just one of the smaller stories of the Marinessance there.”\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Tom wrote in to say, “I was in the Navy from ’66 to ’70. Sometime during one of our import periods, a few of us decided to go to a concert, which was being held on Mount Tam. We drove over, parked, and then started the trek up to concert. As you can imagine, our haircut left no doubt that we were in the service. A few insults here and there as we walked up the road, and then this big convertible pulls up and asks us if we wanted a ride up. Came to find out he was a local disc jockey and was an emcee at the concert. We got in, got great access, and had a wonderful time. Just one of the smaller stories of the Marinessance there.”\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Why don’t we go to where you begin the book? So, you know, if you tell someone Eastern philosophy, self-sufficiency, interest in Indigenous — they might be like, “Flash, Gary Snyder.” But you have a bunch of other figures who were also crucial, even if they became not necessarily international or globally famous. Tell us about Elsa Gidlow and Violet Tommy, Henry Anderson.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Why don’t we go to where you begin the book? So, you know, if you tell someone Eastern philosophy, self-sufficiency, interest in Indigenous — they might be like, “Flash, Gary Snyder.” But you have a bunch of other figures who were also crucial, even if they became not necessarily international or globally famous. Tell us about Elsa Gidlow and Violet Tommy, Henry Anderson.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Perlis:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I would love to talk about Elsa Gidlow. The book does start with her for several reasons. And one is, basically, that she was one of the first artists to permanently reside there who held those core beliefs and values in Marin County, and she faced quite a lot of adversity.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Perlis:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I would love to talk about Elsa Gidlow. The book does start with her for several reasons. And one is, basically, that she was one of the first artists to permanently reside there who held those core beliefs and values in Marin County, and she faced quite a lot of adversity.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Elsa, for those of you who don’t know, was a poet and a radical feminist who was a co-founder of an intentional community called Druid Heights, on Mount Tamalpais. But before that, she came to the town of Fairfax, which was largely summer homes and things of that nature, and she established herself there.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Elsa, for those of you who don’t know, was a poet and a radical feminist who was a co-founder of an intentional community called Druid Heights, on Mount Tamalpais. But before that, she came to the town of Fairfax, which was largely summer homes and things of that nature, and she established herself there.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>She is known for writing one of the first openly gay poetry volumes, called \u003cem>On a Grey Thread\u003c/em>. And she faced some persecution in Fairfax, which I thought was an interesting way to begin the story because while you did have an incredible artistic awakening in Marin County, some of Marin County’s mainstream Marin County was very conservative and resisted that.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>She is known for writing one of the first openly gay poetry volumes, called \u003cem>On a Grey Thread\u003c/em>. And she faced some persecution in Fairfax, which I thought was an interesting way to begin the story because while you did have an incredible artistic awakening in Marin County, some of Marin County’s mainstream Marin County was very conservative and resisted that.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And she was actually scrutinized by the Tenney Committee for Un-American Activities because her neighbors didn’t like that she was hanging out with Chinese people, didn’t like that she was living with a woman. And though her name was ultimately cleared, it was more than enough for her to decide to go live up on top of the mountain and get out of Fairfax at that time.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And she was actually scrutinized by the Tenney Committee for Un-American Activities because her neighbors didn’t like that she was hanging out with Chinese people, didn’t like that she was living with a woman. And though her name was ultimately cleared, it was more than enough for her to decide to go live up on top of the mountain and get out of Fairfax at that time.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I mean, I feel like these people are all part of sort of the committee to promote anti-American activity. It’s kind of like the whole point of the thing, you know?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I mean, I feel like these people are all part of sort of the committee to promote anti-American activity. It’s kind of like the whole point of the thing, you know?\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, it’s interesting, too, because you note the kind of Sausalito boat life, too. That’s another one. I mean, Yonko Varda comes across in this book as deadbeat, libertine, bohemian, but also absolute heartbeat or soul of this early movement.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>You know, it’s interesting, too, because you note the kind of Sausalito boat life, too. That’s another one. I mean, Yonko Varda comes across in this book as deadbeat, libertine, bohemian, but also absolute heartbeat or soul of this early movement.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Perlis:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I don’t like to use the word hippie because I think it can be perceived as a little derogatory to just the young people who are doing their own thing, you know. But Yonko was probably the first hippie, and long before — in 1949, 1950, way before the Summer of Love — Yonko was showing people how to dress the way they felt inside and to behave the way they felt inside and give permission.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Perlis:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I don’t like to use the word hippie because I think it can be perceived as a little derogatory to just the young people who are doing their own thing, you know. But Yonko was probably the first hippie, and long before — in 1949, 1950, way before the Summer of Love — Yonko was showing people how to dress the way they felt inside and to behave the way they felt inside and give permission.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He was an authentic European bohemian in Sausalito. And, you know, you drive by Waldo Point now and all the houseboats are lined up in these neat little rows. But you have to think back to the 1950s. It was a jumble out there, you know. There were planks and gangways, and this is how people were getting across the boats, and they were flushing their sewage into the water and the tides weren’t quite carrying it out. So it might have smelled a little bit.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>He was an authentic European bohemian in Sausalito. And, you know, you drive by Waldo Point now and all the houseboats are lined up in these neat little rows. But you have to think back to the 1950s. It was a jumble out there, you know. There were planks and gangways, and this is how people were getting across the boats, and they were flushing their sewage into the water and the tides weren’t quite carrying it out. So it might have smelled a little bit.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It was a wild and woolly place out there with Varda, who also held these wonderful parties. There were many kind of nexuses of the Marinessance, including Druid Heights, including the ferryboat \u003cem>Vallejo\u003c/em>, where Yonko Varda lived, that really brought people to Marin and brought the great minds of the Marinessance together to share and exchange ideas.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>It was a wild and woolly place out there with Varda, who also held these wonderful parties. There were many kind of nexuses of the Marinessance, including Druid Heights, including the ferryboat \u003cem>Vallejo\u003c/em>, where Yonko Varda lived, that really brought people to Marin and brought the great minds of the Marinessance together to share and exchange ideas.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I do love when Anne Halprin says, “All of us went to Varda’s barge all the time for wild parties. It wasn’t the drug period at all. It was just going to a party with your friends and having a good time.”\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I do love when Anne Halprin says, “All of us went to Varda’s barge all the time for wild parties. It wasn’t the drug period at all. It was just going to a party with your friends and having a good time.”\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Perlis:\u003c/strong> Awesome!\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Perlis:\u003c/strong> Awesome!\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Listen, we’re talking with David Perlis about his new book, \u003cem>Morning in Marin: Zen, Drugs, and Ewoks on the California Coast\u003c/em>. Maybe you’ve got a Marinessance story to share with us. You can give us a call, 866-733-6786. Were you there? I bet you were. Forum@kqed.org.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Listen, we’re talking with David Perlis about his new book, \u003cem>Morning in Marin: Zen, Drugs, and Ewoks on the California Coast\u003c/em>. Maybe you’ve got a Marinessance story to share with us. You can give us a call, 866-733-6786. Were you there? I bet you were. Forum@kqed.org.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": {
"dropCap": false
},
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
}
],
"excerpt": "We talk about the reach of Marin’s cultural influence and the legendary artists who found refuge there.",
"status": "publish",
"parent": 0,
"modified": 1789497968,
"stats": {
"hasAudio": false,
"hasVideo": false,
"hasChartOrMap": false,
"iframeSrcs": [],
"hasGoogleForm": false,
"hasGallery": false,
"hasHearkenModule": false,
"hasPolis": false,
"paragraphCount": 44,
"wordCount": 2293
},
"headData": {
"title": "The Long Reach of the “Marinaissance” | KQED",
"description": "We talk about the reach of Marin’s cultural influence and the legendary artists who found refuge there.",
"ogTitle": "",
"ogDescription": "",
"ogImgId": "",
"twTitle": "",
"twDescription": "",
"twImgId": "",
"schema": {
"@context": "https://schema.org",
"@type": "Article",
"headline": "The Long Reach of the “Marinaissance” ",
"datePublished": "2026-08-28T16:57:44-07:00",
"dateModified": "2026-09-15T11:46:08-07:00",
"image": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"
}
},
"primaryCategory": {
"termId": 1623,
"slug": "podcast",
"name": "Podcast"
},
"audioUrl": "https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC7137807650.mp3",
"airdate": 1788192000,
"sticky": false,
"templateType": "standard",
"featuredImageType": "standard",
"excludeFromSiteSearch": "Include",
"articleAge": "0",
"path": "/forum/2010101915059/the-long-reach-of-the-marinaissance",
"audioTrackLength": null,
"parsedContent": [
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Monday, August 31, 2026 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Growing up in San Rafael in the 80’s and 90’s, writer David Perlis sensed that he had just missed something incredible. “I wanted to know what happened here before I was born,” he writes. That kicked off a quest to uncover Marin County’s “seismic cultural awakening” throughout the midcentury that he chronicles in his new book “Morning in Marin: Zen, Drugs, and Ewoks on the California Coast.” Perlis argues that what emerged from “the Marinaissance” was adopted by popular culture across America — yet its influence has been overlooked. We talk to Perlis about the long reach of Marin’s cultural influence and the legendary artists and thought leaders who found refuge there, including Alan Watts, Robin Williams, Anna Halprin, George Lucas and many more.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>David Perlis\u003c/strong>, writer, musician, filmmaker and author, “Morning in Marin: Zen, Drugs, and Ewoks on the California Coast”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. To hear David Perlis tell it in his new book, \u003cem>Morning in Marin: Zen, Drugs, and Ewoks on the California Coast\u003c/em>, the Marin thing really begins when some people started to party on an old ferry, emceed by Yonko Varda, down at the waterfront in Sausalito. And next thing you knew, Marin was a crucial artistic center known around the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>How? Why? Quote, “Because of the fault and the mountain, the moon and the tides, because for so long there were no bridges and then there were,” Perlis writes. “Because of the radio and small presses and breathtaking risk, Marin was the future. Maybe, too, because Eastern art, poetry and philosophy in many different guises began to diffuse into America from this place. For Pacific exchanges, what I learned can be summed up like this: Oakland was the port, but Marin was portal.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Perlis calls this time period, from about 1950-ish to 1980-ish, the Marinessance — a seismic cultural awakening encompassing literature, music, dance, painting, philosophy, religion, architecture and film. If that sounds grand, let me assure you that it might even undersell what happened in Marin right under the noses of the rich and mostly conservative people who lived up there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And we have Perlis here with us in the studio. Welcome, David.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Perlis:\u003c/strong> Thanks, Alexis. Thanks for having me on the show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So what’s your connection to Marin? What made you want to do this book?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Perlis:\u003c/strong> Well, I grew up in suburban Spielberg in San Rafael, very much a “kids on bikes” neighborhood where an alien might land in your backyard, although unfortunately no alien ever did. I never got to bond in that way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the short answer is because I had to, because there was a magic I sensed in the air in suburban San Rafael and the hills of Mill Valley, driving by the houseboats, Waldo Point, and looking out the window as a kid and saying, “What are those, and how long have they been there, and who made them?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It was a magic that called to me over the years until I was old enough to understand what it was asking. And that was to solve the mystery and to find the source of the magic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I looked around for a book that would explain that to me, and I found the answers scattered across hundreds, if not thousands, of books. And it felt important to put them all in one place. And I think maybe that’s what Marin was calling on me to do — put it all in one place, and so that other people could experience it and to solve the mystery and to find out that, in fact, yes, there was a divergent, distinctive awakening that took place in my hometown of Marin County.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Do you think that one reason there hasn’t been this sort of regional explanation is that people who are, say, exploring the growth of nature writing and poetry in America in the mid-century are like, okay, it’s like Gary Snyder and it’s the Bolinas poets, or people who were approaching George Lucas in film are like — they go down that route. And what taking this regional approach allows you to do is to sort of draw all the connections individual disciplines don’t do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Perlis:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. There are many wonderful books written about the Grateful Dead. There are many books written by George Lucas and Industrial Light & Magic and \u003cem>Star Wars\u003c/em>. But what they don’t have is the context to connect Philip K. Dick and Alan Watts and George Lucas and the Halprin family, Lawrence and Anna Halprin and Daria — to see that they were all part of the same awakening and that there were some common beliefs and values that underlie their work, which were shared and intrinsically tied to the landscape of Marin County.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. What do you think were the values that informed the Marinessance?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Perlis:\u003c/strong> Well, when we talk about the Marinessance, we are talking about almost a half century. And in some ways, maybe it’s still going. I do think that the embers still glow.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But — so we have to think about the beliefs and values as changing over that period of time, and the way that they were interpreted throughout the movement. But there are three that I think really consistently informed the movement from the beginning to the end.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One would be an embrace of Eastern philosophy and mysticism. And we have to see this in the context of World War II, because the artists who were embracing this were actually rebelling. They were rejecting the old world and they were embracing this Eastern mysticism and philosophy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There was a long streak of anti-Asian racism in California going back to when the Chinese came over to build the railroad. And so these people embracing Buddhism, embracing Taoism, was an absolute rebellion.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’d say a second core principle would be the idea of self-sufficiency. Yes, as advocated for by the transcendentalists like Emerson and Thoreau, but more so and especially as practiced by Indigenous cultures of the Americas, especially the Coast Miwok of Marin County, because they exhibited a certain self-sufficiency in making their own clothes, their own shelters, growing their own food and having a deep respect for nature and seeing their resources as not bottomless.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Whereas the old world had this attitude often that Indigenous cultures were somehow inferior, primitive, savage, the Marinessance was one of the first movements in America to see these cultures as equal to, if not superior to, the cultures, the so-called civilized cultures of the old world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I would say the third core principle that lasted throughout was this idea of human potential, which took the form of experimentation, which is where the drugs of the subtitle come in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And these drugs go back to the early Marinessance. Speed was huge, because think of the productivity that can be achieved while on speed. The instant enlightenment of acid.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then I would also say experimentation, but also, as you mentioned earlier, risk-taking — human potential. Putting it all on the line.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think too often these days artists do not put it all on the line in the name of achieving purity of artistic vision. These people risked their homes, they risked their livelihoods, they risked their sanity to achieve purity of artistic vision, which is really the truest and purest form of creation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with David Perlis about his book, \u003cem>Morning in Marin: Zen, Drugs, and Ewoks on the California Coast\u003c/em>. Listen, we want to hear from you. You’re hearing David’s theory about how Marin came to be the cultural center that it is. What do you think? What is it about Marin that has generated such tremendous creativity over these decades?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The number is 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can email forum@kqed.org. You can find us on social media, BlueSky, Instagram, Discord or @KQEDForum.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I sent out a note about the Marinessance in this book to my newsletter subscribers. Got a ton of people writing in, stories like this, for example.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Tom wrote in to say, “I was in the Navy from ’66 to ’70. Sometime during one of our import periods, a few of us decided to go to a concert, which was being held on Mount Tam. We drove over, parked, and then started the trek up to concert. As you can imagine, our haircut left no doubt that we were in the service. A few insults here and there as we walked up the road, and then this big convertible pulls up and asks us if we wanted a ride up. Came to find out he was a local disc jockey and was an emcee at the concert. We got in, got great access, and had a wonderful time. Just one of the smaller stories of the Marinessance there.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Why don’t we go to where you begin the book? So, you know, if you tell someone Eastern philosophy, self-sufficiency, interest in Indigenous — they might be like, “Flash, Gary Snyder.” But you have a bunch of other figures who were also crucial, even if they became not necessarily international or globally famous. Tell us about Elsa Gidlow and Violet Tommy, Henry Anderson.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Perlis:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I would love to talk about Elsa Gidlow. The book does start with her for several reasons. And one is, basically, that she was one of the first artists to permanently reside there who held those core beliefs and values in Marin County, and she faced quite a lot of adversity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Elsa, for those of you who don’t know, was a poet and a radical feminist who was a co-founder of an intentional community called Druid Heights, on Mount Tamalpais. But before that, she came to the town of Fairfax, which was largely summer homes and things of that nature, and she established herself there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She is known for writing one of the first openly gay poetry volumes, called \u003cem>On a Grey Thread\u003c/em>. And she faced some persecution in Fairfax, which I thought was an interesting way to begin the story because while you did have an incredible artistic awakening in Marin County, some of Marin County’s mainstream Marin County was very conservative and resisted that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And she was actually scrutinized by the Tenney Committee for Un-American Activities because her neighbors didn’t like that she was hanging out with Chinese people, didn’t like that she was living with a woman. And though her name was ultimately cleared, it was more than enough for her to decide to go live up on top of the mountain and get out of Fairfax at that time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I mean, I feel like these people are all part of sort of the committee to promote anti-American activity. It’s kind of like the whole point of the thing, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, it’s interesting, too, because you note the kind of Sausalito boat life, too. That’s another one. I mean, Yonko Varda comes across in this book as deadbeat, libertine, bohemian, but also absolute heartbeat or soul of this early movement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Perlis:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I don’t like to use the word hippie because I think it can be perceived as a little derogatory to just the young people who are doing their own thing, you know. But Yonko was probably the first hippie, and long before — in 1949, 1950, way before the Summer of Love — Yonko was showing people how to dress the way they felt inside and to behave the way they felt inside and give permission.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He was an authentic European bohemian in Sausalito. And, you know, you drive by Waldo Point now and all the houseboats are lined up in these neat little rows. But you have to think back to the 1950s. It was a jumble out there, you know. There were planks and gangways, and this is how people were getting across the boats, and they were flushing their sewage into the water and the tides weren’t quite carrying it out. So it might have smelled a little bit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It was a wild and woolly place out there with Varda, who also held these wonderful parties. There were many kind of nexuses of the Marinessance, including Druid Heights, including the ferryboat \u003cem>Vallejo\u003c/em>, where Yonko Varda lived, that really brought people to Marin and brought the great minds of the Marinessance together to share and exchange ideas.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I do love when Anne Halprin says, “All of us went to Varda’s barge all the time for wild parties. It wasn’t the drug period at all. It was just going to a party with your friends and having a good time.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Perlis:\u003c/strong> Awesome!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Listen, we’re talking with David Perlis about his new book, \u003cem>Morning in Marin: Zen, Drugs, and Ewoks on the California Coast\u003c/em>. Maybe you’ve got a Marinessance story to share with us. You can give us a call, 866-733-6786. Were you there? I bet you were. Forum@kqed.org.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
}
],
"link": "/forum/2010101915059/the-long-reach-of-the-marinaissance",
"authors": [
"11757",
"12028"
],
"programs": [
"forum_3"
],
"categories": [
"forum_1623"
],
"featImg": "forum_2010101915060",
"label": "forum_3"
}
},
"podcastsReducer": {
"isFetching": false,
"fetchFailed": false,
"hasFetched": false,
"podcasts": {}
},
"radioProgramsReducer": {
"isFetching": false,
"fetchFailed": false,
"hasFetched": false,
"radioPrograms": {}
},
"radioSearchSegmentsReducer": {},
"programsReducer": {
"all-things-considered": {
"id": "all-things-considered",
"title": "All Things Considered",
"info": "Every weekday, \u003cem>All Things Considered\u003c/em> hosts Robert Siegel, Audie Cornish, Ari Shapiro, and Kelly McEvers present the program's trademark mix of news, interviews, commentaries, reviews, and offbeat features. Michel Martin hosts on the weekends.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 1pm-2pm, 4:30pm-6:30pm\u003cbr />SAT-SUN 5pm-6pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/All-Things-Considered-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/all-things-considered/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/all-things-considered"
},
"american-suburb-podcast": {
"id": "american-suburb-podcast",
"title": "American Suburb: The Podcast",
"tagline": "The flip side of gentrification, told through one town",
"info": "Gentrification is changing cities across America, forcing people from neighborhoods they have long called home. Call them the displaced. Now those priced out of the Bay Area are looking for a better life in an unlikely place. American Suburb follows this migration to one California town along the Delta, 45 miles from San Francisco. But is this once sleepy suburb ready for them?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/American-Suburb-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/news/series/american-suburb-podcast",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 19
},
"link": "/news/series/american-suburb-podcast/",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/RBrW",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?mt=2&id=1287748328",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/American-Suburb-p1086805/",
"rss": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/series/american-suburb-podcast/feed/podcast",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkMzMDExODgxNjA5"
}
},
"baycurious": {
"id": "baycurious",
"title": "Bay Curious",
"tagline": "Exploring the Bay Area, one question at a time",
"info": "KQED’s new podcast, Bay Curious, gets to the bottom of the mysteries — both profound and peculiar — that give the Bay Area its unique identity. And we’ll do it with your help! You ask the questions. You decide what Bay Curious investigates. And you join us on the journey to find the answers.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Bay-Curious-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Bay Curious",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/news/series/baycurious",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 3
},
"link": "/podcasts/baycurious",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious",
"rss": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/category/bay-curious-podcast/feed/podcast",
"amazon": "https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/9a90d476-aa04-455d-9a4c-0871ed6216d4/bay-curious",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/bay-curious",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/6O76IdmhixfijmhTZLIJ8k"
}
},
"bbc-world-service": {
"id": "bbc-world-service",
"title": "BBC World Service",
"info": "The day's top stories from BBC News compiled twice daily in the week, once at weekends.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 9pm-10pm, TUE-FRI 1am-2am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/BBC-World-Service-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbc_world_service",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "BBC World Service"
},
"link": "/radio/program/bbc-world-service",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/global-news-podcast/id135067274?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/BBC-World-Service-p455581/",
"rss": "https://podcasts.files.bbci.co.uk/p02nq0gn.rss"
}
},
"californiareport": {
"id": "californiareport",
"title": "The California Report",
"tagline": "California, day by day",
"info": "KQED’s statewide radio news program providing daily coverage of issues, trends and public policy decisions.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-California-Report-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED The California Report",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/californiareport",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 8
},
"link": "/californiareport",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/kqeds-the-california-report/id79681292",
"amazon": "https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/26099305-72af-4542-9dde-ac1807fe36d5/kqed-s-the-california-report",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/432285393/the-california-report",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqedfm-kqeds-the-california-report-podcast-8838",
"rss": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/tag/tcram/feed/podcast"
}
},
"californiareportmagazine": {
"id": "californiareportmagazine",
"title": "The California Report Magazine",
"tagline": "Your state, your stories",
"info": "Every week, The California Report Magazine takes you on a road trip for the ears: to visit the places and meet the people who make California unique. The in-depth storytelling podcast from the California Report.",
"airtime": "FRI 4:30pm-5pm, 6:30pm-7pm, 11pm-11:30pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-California-Report-Magazine-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED The California Report Magazine",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/californiareportmagazine",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 10
},
"link": "/californiareportmagazine",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-california-report-magazine/id1314750545",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM3NjkwNjk1OTAz",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/564733126/the-california-report-magazine",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/the-california-report-magazine",
"rss": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/tag/tcrmag/feed/podcast"
}
},
"city-arts": {
"id": "city-arts",
"title": "City Arts & Lectures",
"info": "A one-hour radio program to hear celebrated writers, artists and thinkers address contemporary ideas and values, often discussing the creative process. Please note: tapes or transcripts are not available",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/05/cityartsandlecture-300x300.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.cityarts.net/",
"airtime": "SUN 1pm-2pm, TUE 10pm, WED 1am",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
"subscribe": {
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/City-Arts-and-Lectures-p692/",
"rss": "https://www.cityarts.net/feed/"
}
},
"closealltabs": {
"id": "closealltabs",
"title": "Close All Tabs",
"tagline": "Your irreverent guide to the trends redefining our world",
"info": "Close All Tabs breaks down how digital culture shapes our world through thoughtful insights and irreverent humor.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/CAT_2_Tile-scaled.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Close All Tabs",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/closealltabs",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 1
},
"link": "/podcasts/closealltabs",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/close-all-tabs/id214663465",
"rss": "https://feeds.megaphone.fm/KQINC6993880386",
"amazon": "https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/92d9d4ac-67a3-4eed-b10a-fb45d45b1ef2/close-all-tabs",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/6LAJFHnGK1pYXYzv6SIol6?si=deb0cae19813417c"
}
},
"code-switch-life-kit": {
"id": "code-switch-life-kit",
"title": "Code Switch / Life Kit",
"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
"airtime": "SUN 9pm-10pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Code-Switch-Life-Kit-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/code-switch-life-kit",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/1112190608?mt=2&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnByLm9yZy9yc3MvcG9kY2FzdC5waHA_aWQ9NTEwMzEy",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/3bExJ9JQpkwNhoHvaIIuyV",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510312/podcast.xml"
}
},
"commonwealth-club": {
"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
"airtime": "THU 10pm, FRI 1am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Commonwealth-Club-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.commonwealthclub.org/podcasts",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
"link": "/radio/program/commonwealth-club",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/commonwealth-club-of-california-podcast/id976334034?mt=2",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/Commonwealth-Club-of-California-p1060/"
}
},
"forum": {
"id": "forum",
"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 9am-11am, 10pm-11pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/forum",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 9
},
"link": "/forum",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/kqeds-forum/id73329719",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5NTU3MzgxNjMz",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/432307980/forum",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqedfm-kqeds-forum-podcast",
"rss": "https://feeds.megaphone.fm/KQINC9557381633"
}
},
"freakonomics-radio": {
"id": "freakonomics-radio",
"title": "Freakonomics Radio",
"info": "Freakonomics Radio is a one-hour award-winning podcast and public-radio project hosted by Stephen Dubner, with co-author Steve Levitt as a regular guest. It is produced in partnership with WNYC.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/freakonomicsRadio.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
"airtime": "SUN 1am-2am, SAT 3pm-4pm",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WNYC"
},
"link": "/radio/program/freakonomics-radio",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/4s8b",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
"rss": "https://feeds.feedburner.com/freakonomicsradio"
}
},
"fresh-air": {
"id": "fresh-air",
"title": "Fresh Air",
"info": "Hosted by Terry Gross, \u003cem>Fresh Air from WHYY\u003c/em> is the Peabody Award-winning weekday magazine of contemporary arts and issues. One of public radio's most popular programs, Fresh Air features intimate conversations with today's biggest luminaries.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 7pm-8pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Fresh-Air-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/fresh-air/",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/fresh-air",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/4s8b",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/Fresh-Air-p17/",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/381444908/podcast.xml"
}
},
"here-and-now": {
"id": "here-and-now",
"title": "Here & Now",
"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
"airtime": "MON-THU 11am-12pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Here-And-Now-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://www.wbur.org/hereandnow",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/here-and-now",
"subsdcribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?mt=2&id=426698661",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/Here--Now-p211/",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510051/podcast.xml"
}
},
"hidden-brain": {
"id": "hidden-brain",
"title": "Hidden Brain",
"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/05/hiddenbrain.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/series/423302056/hidden-brain",
"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "NPR"
},
"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/hidden-brain/id1028908750?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/Science-Podcasts/Hidden-Brain-p787503/",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510308/podcast.xml"
}
},
"how-i-built-this": {
"id": "how-i-built-this",
"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/howIBuiltThis.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510313/how-i-built-this",
"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/3zxy",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/Arts--Culture-Podcasts/How-I-Built-This-p910896/",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510313/podcast.xml"
}
},
"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
"imageAlt": "KQED Hyphenación",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 15
},
"link": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/hyphenaci%C3%B3n/id1191591838",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/2p3Fifq96nw9BPcmFdIq0o?si=39209f7b25774f38",
"youtube": "https://www.youtube.com/c/kqedarts",
"amazon": "https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/6c3dd23c-93fb-4aab-97ba-1725fa6315f1/hyphenaci%C3%B3n",
"rss": "https://feeds.megaphone.fm/KQINC2275451163"
}
},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 18
},
"link": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/790253322/the-political-mind-of-jerry-brown",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/id1492194549",
"rss": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/series/jerrybrown/feed/podcast/",
"tuneIn": "http://tun.in/pjGcK",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/the-political-mind-of-jerry-brown",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/54C1dmuyFyKMFttY6X2j6r?si=K8SgRCoISNK6ZbjpXrX5-w",
"amazon": "https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/44420f75-3b0e-4301-ab3b-16da6b09e543/the-political-mind-of-jerry-brown"
}
},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/xtTd",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/Latino-USA-p621/",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=201853034&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/APM-Marketplace-p88/",
"rss": "https://feeds.publicradio.org/public_feeds/marketplace-pm/rss/rss"
}
},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Masters-of-Scale-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WaitWhat"
},
"link": "/radio/program/masters-of-scale",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "http://mastersofscale.app.link/",
"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mindshift-podcast/id1078765985",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/464615685/mind-shift-podcast",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/stories-teachers-share",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/0MxSpNYZKNprFLCl7eEtyx"
}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/morning-edition"
},
"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "On Our Watch from NPR and KQED",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/id1567098962",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/onourwatch",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/0OLWoyizopu6tY1XiuX70x",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/On-Our-Watch-p1436229/",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/show/on-our-watch",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510360/podcast.xml"
}
},
"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm-3pm, MON 12am-1am",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/otm",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "wnyc"
},
"link": "/radio/program/on-the-media",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/on-the-media/id73330715?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/On-the-Media-p69/",
"rss": "http://feeds.wnyc.org/onthemedia"
}
},
"pbs-newshour": {
"id": "pbs-newshour",
"title": "PBS NewsHour",
"info": "Analysis, background reports and updates from the PBS NewsHour putting today's news in context.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3pm-4pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/PBS-News-Hour-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "pbs"
},
"link": "/radio/program/pbs-newshour",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pbs-newshour-full-show/id394432287?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/PBS-NewsHour---Full-Show-p425698/",
"rss": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/feeds/rss/podcasts/show"
}
},
"perspectives": {
"id": "perspectives",
"title": "Perspectives",
"tagline": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991",
"info": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/Perspectives_Tile_Final.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Perspectives",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/perspectives/",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 14
},
"link": "/perspectives",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/id73801135",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/432309616/perspectives",
"rss": "https://ww2.kqed.org/perspectives/category/perspectives/feed/",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93dzIua3FlZC5vcmcvcGVyc3BlY3RpdmVzL2NhdGVnb3J5L3BlcnNwZWN0aXZlcy9mZWVkLw"
}
},
"planet-money": {
"id": "planet-money",
"title": "Planet Money",
"info": "The economy explained. Imagine you could call up a friend and say, Meet me at the bar and tell me what's going on with the economy. Now imagine that's actually a fun evening.",
"airtime": "SUN 3pm-4pm",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/planetmoney.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/sections/money/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/planet-money",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/M4f5",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/planet-money/id290783428?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/Business--Economics-Podcasts/Planet-Money-p164680/",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510289/podcast.xml"
}
},
"politicalbreakdown": {
"id": "politicalbreakdown",
"title": "Political Breakdown",
"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
"airtime": "THU 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Political-Breakdown-2024-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Political Breakdown",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/politicalbreakdown",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 5
},
"link": "/podcasts/politicalbreakdown",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/political-breakdown/id1327641087",
"amazon": "https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/e0c2d153-ad36-4c8d-901d-f1da6a724824/political-breakdown",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/572155894/political-breakdown",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/political-breakdown",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/07RVyIjIdk2WDuVehvBMoN",
"rss": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/tag/political-breakdown/feed/podcast"
}
},
"possible": {
"id": "possible",
"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Possible-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.possible.fm/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "Possible"
},
"link": "/radio/program/possible",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/possible/id1677184070",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/730YpdUSNlMyPQwNnyjp4k"
}
},
"pri-the-world": {
"id": "pri-the-world",
"title": "PRI's The World: Latest Edition",
"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 2pm-3pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-World-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.pri.org/programs/the-world",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "PRI"
},
"link": "/radio/program/pri-the-world",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pris-the-world-latest-edition/id278196007?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/News--Politics-Podcasts/PRIs-The-World-p24/",
"rss": "http://feeds.feedburner.com/pri/theworld"
}
},
"radiolab": {
"id": "radiolab",
"title": "Radiolab",
"info": "A two-time Peabody Award-winner, Radiolab is an investigation told through sounds and stories, and centered around one big idea. In the Radiolab world, information sounds like music and science and culture collide. Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, the show is designed for listeners who demand skepticism, but appreciate wonder. WNYC Studios is the producer of other leading podcasts including Freakonomics Radio, Death, Sex & Money, On the Media and many more.",
"airtime": "SUN 12am-1am, SAT 2pm-3pm",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/radiolab1400.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/radiolab/",
"meta": {
"site": "science",
"source": "WNYC"
},
"link": "/radio/program/radiolab",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/radiolab/id152249110?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/RadioLab-p68032/",
"rss": "https://feeds.wnyc.org/radiolab"
}
},
"reveal": {
"id": "reveal",
"title": "Reveal",
"info": "Created by The Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX, Reveal is public radios first one-hour weekly radio show and podcast dedicated to investigative reporting. Credible, fact based and without a partisan agenda, Reveal combines the power and artistry of driveway moment storytelling with data-rich reporting on critically important issues. The result is stories that inform and inspire, arming our listeners with information to right injustices, hold the powerful accountable and improve lives.Reveal is hosted by Al Letson and showcases the award-winning work of CIR and newsrooms large and small across the nation. In a radio and podcast market crowded with choices, Reveal focuses on important and often surprising stories that illuminate the world for our listeners.",
"airtime": "SAT 4pm-5pm",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/reveal300px.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/reveal",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/reveal/id886009669",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/Reveal-p679597/",
"rss": "http://feeds.revealradio.org/revealpodcast"
}
},
"rightnowish": {
"id": "rightnowish",
"title": "Rightnowish",
"tagline": "Art is where you find it",
"info": "Rightnowish digs into life in the Bay Area right now… ish. Journalist Pendarvis Harshaw takes us to galleries painted on the sides of liquor stores in West Oakland. We'll dance in warehouses in the Bayview, make smoothies with kids in South Berkeley, and listen to classical music in a 1984 Cutlass Supreme in Richmond. Every week, Pen talks to movers and shakers about how the Bay Area shapes what they create, and how they shape the place we call home.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Rightnowish-Podcast-Tile-500x500-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Rightnowish with Pendarvis Harshaw",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/rightnowish",
"meta": {
"site": "arts",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 16
},
"link": "/podcasts/rightnowish",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/721590300/rightnowish",
"rss": "https://ww2.kqed.org/arts/programs/rightnowish/feed/podcast",
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rightnowish/id1482187648",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/rightnowish",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkMxMjU5MTY3NDc4",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/7kEJuafTzTVan7B78ttz1I"
}
},
"science-friday": {
"id": "science-friday",
"title": "Science Friday",
"info": "Science Friday is a weekly science talk show, broadcast live over public radio stations nationwide. Each week, the show focuses on science topics that are in the news and tries to bring an educated, balanced discussion to bear on the scientific issues at hand. Panels of expert guests join host Ira Flatow, a veteran science journalist, to discuss science and to take questions from listeners during the call-in portion of the program.",
"airtime": "FRI 11am-1pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Science-Friday-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/science-friday",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/science-friday",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=73329284&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/Science-Friday-p394/",
"rss": "http://feeds.wnyc.org/science-friday"
}
},
"snap-judgment": {
"id": "snap-judgment",
"title": "Snap Judgment",
"tagline": "Real stories with killer beats",
"info": "The Snap Judgment radio show and podcast mixes real stories with killer beats to produce cinematic, dramatic radio. Snap's musical brand of storytelling dares listeners to see the world through the eyes of another. This is storytelling... with a BEAT!! Snap first aired on public radio stations nationwide in July 2010. Today, Snap Judgment airs on over 450 public radio stations and is brought to the airwaves by KQED & PRX.",
"airtime": "SAT 1pm-2pm, 9pm-10pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Snap-Judgment-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Snap Judgment",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://snapjudgment.org",
"meta": {
"site": "arts",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 4
},
"link": "https://snapjudgment.org",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/snap-judgment/id283657561",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/449018144/snap-judgment",
"stitcher": "https://www.pandora.com/podcast/snap-judgment/PC:241?source=stitcher-sunset",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/3Cct7ZWmxHNAtLgBTqjC5v",
"rss": "https://snap.feed.snapjudgment.org/"
}
},
"soldout": {
"id": "soldout",
"title": "SOLD OUT: Rethinking Housing in America",
"tagline": "A new future for housing",
"info": "Sold Out: Rethinking Housing in America",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Sold-Out-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Sold Out: Rethinking Housing in America",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/soldout",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 13
},
"link": "/podcasts/soldout",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/911586047/s-o-l-d-o-u-t-a-new-future-for-housing",
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/introducing-sold-out-rethinking-housing-in-america/id1531354937",
"rss": "https://feeds.megaphone.fm/soldout",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/38dTBSk2ISFoPiyYNoKn1X",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/sold-out-rethinking-housing-in-america",
"tunein": "https://tunein.com/radio/SOLD-OUT-Rethinking-Housing-in-America-p1365871/"
}
},
"spooked": {
"id": "spooked",
"title": "Spooked",
"tagline": "True-life supernatural stories",
"info": "",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Spooked-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Spooked",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://spookedpodcast.org/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 7
},
"link": "https://spookedpodcast.org/",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/spooked/id1279361017",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/549547848/snap-judgment-presents-spooked",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/76571Rfl3m7PLJQZKQIGCT",
"rss": "https://feeds.simplecast.com/TBotaapn"
}
},
"tech-nation": {
"id": "tech-nation",
"title": "Tech Nation Radio Podcast",
"info": "Tech Nation is a weekly public radio program, hosted by Dr. Moira Gunn. Founded in 1993, it has grown from a simple interview show to a multi-faceted production, featuring conversations with noted technology and science leaders, and a weekly science and technology-related commentary.",
"airtime": "FRI 10pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Tech-Nation-Radio-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://technation.podomatic.com/",
"meta": {
"site": "science",
"source": "Tech Nation Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/tech-nation",
"subscribe": {
"rss": "https://technation.podomatic.com/rss2.xml"
}
},
"ted-radio-hour": {
"id": "ted-radio-hour",
"title": "TED Radio Hour",
"info": "The TED Radio Hour is a journey through fascinating ideas, astonishing inventions, fresh approaches to old problems, and new ways to think and create.",
"airtime": "SUN 3pm-4pm, SAT 10pm-11pm",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/tedRadioHour.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/ted-radio-hour/?showDate=2018-06-22",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/ted-radio-hour",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/8vsS",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=523121474&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/TED-Radio-Hour-p418021/",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510298/podcast.xml"
}
},
"thebay": {
"id": "thebay",
"title": "The Bay",
"tagline": "Local news to keep you rooted",
"info": "Host Devin Katayama walks you through the biggest story of the day with reporters and newsmakers.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Bay-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED The Bay",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/thebay",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 2
},
"link": "/podcasts/thebay",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-bay/id1350043452",
"amazon": "https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/d800ea4c-7a2c-42f2-b861-edaf78a5db0b/the-bay",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/586725995/the-bay",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/the-bay",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/4BIKBKIujizLHlIlBNaAqQ",
"rss": "https://feeds.megaphone.fm/KQINC8259786327"
}
},
"thelatest": {
"id": "thelatest",
"title": "The Latest",
"tagline": "Trusted local news in real time",
"info": "",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/The-Latest-2025-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED The Latest",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/thelatest",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 6
},
"link": "/thelatest",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-latest-from-kqed/id1197721799",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/1257949365/the-latest-from-k-q-e-d",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/5KIIXMgM9GTi5AepwOYvIZ?si=bd3053fec7244dba",
"rss": "https://feeds.megaphone.fm/KQINC9137121918"
}
},
"theleap": {
"id": "theleap",
"title": "The Leap",
"tagline": "What if you closed your eyes, and jumped?",
"info": "Stories about people making dramatic, risky changes, told by award-winning public radio reporter Judy Campbell.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Leap-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED The Leap",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/theleap",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 17
},
"link": "/podcasts/theleap",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-leap/id1046668171",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/447248267/the-leap",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/the-leap",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/3sSlVHHzU0ytLwuGs1SD1U",
"rss": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/programs/the-leap/feed/podcast"
}
},
"the-moth-radio-hour": {
"id": "the-moth-radio-hour",
"title": "The Moth Radio Hour",
"info": "Since its launch in 1997, The Moth has presented thousands of true stories, told live and without notes, to standing-room-only crowds worldwide. Moth storytellers stand alone, under a spotlight, with only a microphone and a roomful of strangers. The storyteller and the audience embark on a high-wire act of shared experience which is both terrifying and exhilarating. Since 2008, The Moth podcast has featured many of our favorite stories told live on Moth stages around the country. For information on all of our programs and live events, visit themoth.org.",
"airtime": "SAT 8pm-9pm and SUN 11am-12pm",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/theMoth.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://themoth.org/",
"meta": {
"site": "arts",
"source": "prx"
},
"link": "/radio/program/the-moth-radio-hour",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-moth-podcast/id275699983?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/The-Moth-p273888/",
"rss": "http://feeds.themoth.org/themothpodcast"
}
},
"the-new-yorker-radio-hour": {
"id": "the-new-yorker-radio-hour",
"title": "The New Yorker Radio Hour",
"info": "The New Yorker Radio Hour is a weekly program presented by the magazine's editor, David Remnick, and produced by WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Each episode features a diverse mix of interviews, profiles, storytelling, and an occasional burst of humor inspired by the magazine, and shaped by its writers, artists, and editors. This isn't a radio version of a magazine, but something all its own, reflecting the rich possibilities of audio storytelling and conversation. Theme music for the show was composed and performed by Merrill Garbus of tUnE-YArDs.",
"airtime": "SAT 10am-11am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-New-Yorker-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/tnyradiohour",
"meta": {
"site": "arts",
"source": "WNYC"
},
"link": "/radio/program/the-new-yorker-radio-hour",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/id1050430296",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/New-Yorker-Radio-Hour-p803804/",
"rss": "https://feeds.feedburner.com/newyorkerradiohour"
}
},
"the-sam-sanders-show": {
"id": "the-sam-sanders-show",
"title": "The Sam Sanders Show",
"info": "One of public radio's most dynamic voices, Sam Sanders helped launch The NPR Politics Podcast and hosted NPR's hit show It's Been A Minute. Now, the award-winning host returns with something brand new, The Sam Sanders Show. Every week, Sam Sanders and friends dig into the culture that shapes our lives: what's driving the biggest trends, how artists really think, and even the memes you can't stop scrolling past. Sam is beloved for his way of unpacking the world and bringing you up close to fresh currents and engaging conversations. The Sam Sanders Show is smart, funny and always a good time.",
"airtime": "FRI 12-1pm AND SAT 11am-12pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/The-Sam-Sanders-Show-Podcast-Tile-400x400-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.kcrw.com/shows/the-sam-sanders-show/latest",
"meta": {
"site": "arts",
"source": "KCRW"
},
"link": "https://www.kcrw.com/shows/the-sam-sanders-show/latest",
"subscribe": {
"rss": "https://feed.cdnstream1.com/zjb/feed/download/ac/28/59/ac28594c-e1d0-4231-8728-61865cdc80e8.xml"
}
},
"the-splendid-table": {
"id": "the-splendid-table",
"title": "The Splendid Table",
"info": "\u003cem>The Splendid Table\u003c/em> hosts our nation's conversations about cooking, sustainability and food culture.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Splendid-Table-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.splendidtable.org/",
"airtime": "SUN 10-11 pm",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/the-splendid-table"
},
"this-american-life": {
"id": "this-american-life",
"title": "This American Life",
"info": "This American Life is a weekly public radio show, heard by 2.2 million people on more than 500 stations. Another 2.5 million people download the weekly podcast. It is hosted by Ira Glass, produced in collaboration with Chicago Public Media, delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange, and has won all of the major broadcasting awards.",
"airtime": "SAT 12pm-1pm, 7pm-8pm",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/thisAmericanLife.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.thisamericanlife.org/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "wbez"
},
"link": "/radio/program/this-american-life",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=201671138&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
"rss": "https://www.thisamericanlife.org/podcast/rss.xml"
}
},
"tinydeskradio": {
"id": "tinydeskradio",
"title": "Tiny Desk Radio",
"info": "We're bringing the best of Tiny Desk to the airwaves, only on public radio.",
"airtime": "SUN 8pm and SAT 9pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/04/300x300-For-Member-Station-Logo-Tiny-Desk-Radio-@2x.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/series/g-s1-52030/tiny-desk-radio",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/tinydeskradio",
"subscribe": {
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/g-s1-52030/rss.xml"
}
},
"wait-wait-dont-tell-me": {
"id": "wait-wait-dont-tell-me",
"title": "Wait Wait... Don't Tell Me!",
"info": "Peter Sagal and Bill Kurtis host the weekly NPR News quiz show alongside some of the best and brightest news and entertainment personalities.",
"airtime": "SUN 10am-11am, SAT 11am-12pm, SAT 6pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Wait-Wait-Podcast-Tile-300x300-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/wait-wait-dont-tell-me/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/wait-wait-dont-tell-me",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/Xogv",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=121493804&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/Wait-Wait-Dont-Tell-Me-p46/",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/344098539/podcast.xml"
}
},
"weekend-edition-saturday": {
"id": "weekend-edition-saturday",
"title": "Weekend Edition Saturday",
"info": "Weekend Edition Saturday wraps up the week's news and offers a mix of analysis and features on a wide range of topics, including arts, sports, entertainment, and human interest stories. The two-hour program is hosted by NPR's Peabody Award-winning Scott Simon.",
"airtime": "SAT 5am-10am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Weekend-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/weekend-edition-saturday/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/weekend-edition-saturday"
},
"weekend-edition-sunday": {
"id": "weekend-edition-sunday",
"title": "Weekend Edition Sunday",
"info": "Weekend Edition Sunday features interviews with newsmakers, artists, scientists, politicians, musicians, writers, theologians and historians. The program has covered news events from Nelson Mandela's 1990 release from a South African prison to the capture of Saddam Hussein.",
"airtime": "SUN 5am-10am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Weekend-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/weekend-edition-sunday/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/weekend-edition-sunday"
}
},
"racesReducer": {},
"racesGenElectionReducer": {},
"racesGenElection2026Reducer": {},
"racesGenElection2026PresidentialReducer": {},
"radioSchedulesReducer": {},
"listsReducer": {
"posts?author=12028&authorName=Cayla Mihalovich": {
"isFetching": false,
"latestQuery": {
"from": 0,
"size": 12
},
"vitalsOnly": false,
"totalRequested": 4,
"isLoading": false,
"isLoadingMore": true,
"total": {
"value": 4,
"relation": "eq"
},
"items": [
"news_12103258",
"forum_2010101915284",
"forum_2010101915195",
"forum_2010101915059"
],
"complete": true
}
},
"recallGuideReducer": {
"intros": {},
"policy": {},
"candidates": {}
},
"savedArticleReducer": {
"articles": [],
"status": {}
},
"newslettersReducer": {
"isFetching": false,
"fetchFailed": false,
"hasFetched": false,
"newsletters": {},
"isSubscribing": false,
"isUnsubscribing": false,
"subscribedNewsletters": {}
},
"termsReducer": {
"about": {
"name": "About",
"type": "terms",
"id": "about",
"slug": "about",
"link": "/about",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"arts": {
"name": "Arts & Culture",
"grouping": [
"arts",
"pop",
"trulyca"
],
"description": "KQED Arts provides daily in-depth coverage of the Bay Area's music, art, film, performing arts, literature and arts news, as well as cultural commentary and criticism.",
"type": "terms",
"id": "arts",
"slug": "arts",
"link": "/arts",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"artschool": {
"name": "Art School",
"parent": "arts",
"type": "terms",
"id": "artschool",
"slug": "artschool",
"link": "/artschool",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"bayareabites": {
"name": "KQED food",
"grouping": [
"food",
"bayareabites",
"checkplease"
],
"parent": "food",
"type": "terms",
"id": "bayareabites",
"slug": "bayareabites",
"link": "/food",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"bayareahiphop": {
"name": "Bay Area Hiphop",
"type": "terms",
"id": "bayareahiphop",
"slug": "bayareahiphop",
"link": "/bayareahiphop",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"campaign21": {
"name": "Campaign 21",
"type": "terms",
"id": "campaign21",
"slug": "campaign21",
"link": "/campaign21",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"careers": {
"name": "Careers",
"type": "terms",
"id": "careers",
"slug": "careers",
"link": "/careers",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"checkplease": {
"name": "KQED food",
"grouping": [
"food",
"bayareabites",
"checkplease"
],
"parent": "food",
"type": "terms",
"id": "checkplease",
"slug": "checkplease",
"link": "/food",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"education": {
"name": "Education",
"grouping": [
"education"
],
"type": "terms",
"id": "education",
"slug": "education",
"link": "/education",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"elections": {
"name": "Elections",
"type": "terms",
"id": "elections",
"slug": "elections",
"link": "/elections",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"events": {
"name": "Events",
"type": "terms",
"id": "events",
"slug": "events",
"link": "/events",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"event": {
"name": "Event",
"alias": "events",
"type": "terms",
"id": "event",
"slug": "event",
"link": "/event",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"filmschoolshorts": {
"name": "Film School Shorts",
"type": "terms",
"id": "filmschoolshorts",
"slug": "filmschoolshorts",
"link": "/filmschoolshorts",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"food": {
"name": "KQED food",
"grouping": [
"food",
"bayareabites",
"checkplease"
],
"type": "terms",
"id": "food",
"slug": "food",
"link": "/food",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"forum": {
"name": "Forum",
"relatedContentQuery": "posts/forum?",
"parent": "news",
"type": "terms",
"id": "forum",
"slug": "forum",
"link": "/forum",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"futureofyou": {
"name": "Future of You",
"grouping": [
"science",
"futureofyou"
],
"parent": "science",
"type": "terms",
"id": "futureofyou",
"slug": "futureofyou",
"link": "/futureofyou",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"jpepinheart": {
"name": "KQED food",
"relatedContentQuery": "posts/food,bayareabites,checkplease",
"parent": "food",
"type": "terms",
"id": "jpepinheart",
"slug": "jpepinheart",
"link": "/food",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"liveblog": {
"name": "Live Blog",
"type": "terms",
"id": "liveblog",
"slug": "liveblog",
"link": "/liveblog",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"livetv": {
"name": "Live TV",
"parent": "tv",
"type": "terms",
"id": "livetv",
"slug": "livetv",
"link": "/livetv",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"lowdown": {
"name": "The Lowdown",
"relatedContentQuery": "posts/lowdown?",
"parent": "news",
"type": "terms",
"id": "lowdown",
"slug": "lowdown",
"link": "/lowdown",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"mindshift": {
"name": "Mindshift",
"parent": "news",
"description": "MindShift explores the future of education by highlighting the innovative – and sometimes counterintuitive – ways educators and parents are helping all children succeed.",
"type": "terms",
"id": "mindshift",
"slug": "mindshift",
"link": "/mindshift",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"news": {
"name": "News",
"grouping": [
"news",
"forum"
],
"type": "terms",
"id": "news",
"slug": "news",
"link": "/news",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"newsletters": {
"name": "newsletters",
"type": "terms",
"id": "newsletters",
"slug": "newsletters",
"link": "/newsletters",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"perspectives": {
"name": "Perspectives",
"parent": "radio",
"type": "terms",
"id": "perspectives",
"slug": "perspectives",
"link": "/perspectives",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"podcasts": {
"name": "Podcasts",
"type": "terms",
"id": "podcasts",
"slug": "podcasts",
"link": "/podcasts",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"pop": {
"name": "Pop",
"parent": "arts",
"type": "terms",
"id": "pop",
"slug": "pop",
"link": "/pop",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"pressroom": {
"name": "Pressroom",
"type": "terms",
"id": "pressroom",
"slug": "pressroom",
"link": "/pressroom",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"quest": {
"name": "Quest",
"parent": "science",
"type": "terms",
"id": "quest",
"slug": "quest",
"link": "/quest",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"radio": {
"name": "Radio",
"grouping": [
"forum",
"perspectives"
],
"description": "Listen to KQED Public Radio – home of Forum and The California Report – on 88.5 FM in San Francisco, 89.3 FM in Sacramento, 88.3 FM in Santa Rosa and 88.1 FM in Martinez.",
"type": "terms",
"id": "radio",
"slug": "radio",
"link": "/radio",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"root": {
"name": "KQED",
"image": "https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png",
"imageWidth": 1200,
"imageHeight": 630,
"headData": {
"title": "KQED | News, Radio, Podcasts, TV | Public Media for Northern California",
"description": "KQED provides public radio, television, and independent reporting on issues that matter to the Bay Area. We’re the NPR and PBS member station for Northern California."
},
"type": "terms",
"id": "root",
"slug": "root",
"link": "/root",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"science": {
"name": "Science",
"grouping": [
"science",
"futureofyou"
],
"description": "KQED Science brings you award-winning science and environment coverage from the Bay Area and beyond.",
"type": "terms",
"id": "science",
"slug": "science",
"link": "/science",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"stateofhealth": {
"name": "State of Health",
"parent": "science",
"type": "terms",
"id": "stateofhealth",
"slug": "stateofhealth",
"link": "/stateofhealth",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"support": {
"name": "Support",
"type": "terms",
"id": "support",
"slug": "support",
"link": "/support",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"thedolist": {
"name": "The Do List",
"parent": "arts",
"type": "terms",
"id": "thedolist",
"slug": "thedolist",
"link": "/thedolist",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"trulyca": {
"name": "Truly CA",
"grouping": [
"arts",
"pop",
"trulyca"
],
"parent": "arts",
"type": "terms",
"id": "trulyca",
"slug": "trulyca",
"link": "/trulyca",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"tv": {
"name": "TV",
"type": "terms",
"id": "tv",
"slug": "tv",
"link": "/tv",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"voterguide": {
"name": "Voter Guide",
"parent": "elections",
"alias": "elections",
"type": "terms",
"id": "voterguide",
"slug": "voterguide",
"link": "/voterguide",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"guiaelectoral": {
"name": "Guia Electoral",
"parent": "elections",
"alias": "elections",
"type": "terms",
"id": "guiaelectoral",
"slug": "guiaelectoral",
"link": "/guiaelectoral",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"source_news_12103258": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "source_news_12103258",
"meta": {
"override": true
},
"name": "Close All Tabs",
"link": "https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/closealltabs",
"isLoading": false
},
"news_35082": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_35082",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "35082",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"name": "Close All Tabs",
"slug": "close-all-tabs",
"taxonomy": "program",
"description": null,
"featImg": null,
"headData": {
"title": "Close All Tabs | KQED News",
"description": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogDescription": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"twDescription": null,
"twImgId": null
},
"ttid": 35099,
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/program/close-all-tabs"
},
"news_33520": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_33520",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "33520",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "Podcast",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "category",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "Podcast Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 33537,
"slug": "podcast",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/category/podcast"
},
"news_34645": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_34645",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "34645",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"name": "close all tabs",
"slug": "close-all-tabs",
"taxonomy": "tag",
"description": null,
"featImg": null,
"headData": {
"title": "close all tabs | KQED News",
"description": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogDescription": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"twDescription": null,
"twImgId": null,
"metaRobotsNoIndex": "noindex"
},
"ttid": 34662,
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/close-all-tabs"
},
"news_22973": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_22973",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "22973",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "culture",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "culture Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 22990,
"slug": "culture",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/culture"
},
"news_18543": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_18543",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "18543",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "Health",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "Health Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 466,
"slug": "health",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/health"
},
"news_35692": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_35692",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "35692",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"name": "influencers",
"slug": "influencers",
"taxonomy": "tag",
"description": null,
"featImg": null,
"headData": {
"title": "influencers | KQED News",
"description": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogDescription": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"twDescription": null,
"twImgId": null
},
"ttid": 35709,
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/influencers"
},
"news_3137": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_3137",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "3137",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "internet",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "internet Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 3155,
"slug": "internet",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/internet"
},
"news_31079": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_31079",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "31079",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "internet access",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "internet access Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 31096,
"slug": "internet-access",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/internet-access"
},
"news_34646": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_34646",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "34646",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"name": "internet culture",
"slug": "internet-culture",
"taxonomy": "tag",
"description": null,
"featImg": null,
"headData": {
"title": "internet culture | KQED News",
"description": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogDescription": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"twDescription": null,
"twImgId": null
},
"ttid": 34663,
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/internet-culture"
},
"news_36180": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_36180",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "36180",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"name": "MAGA",
"slug": "maga",
"taxonomy": "tag",
"description": null,
"featImg": null,
"headData": {
"title": "MAGA | KQED News",
"description": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogDescription": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"twDescription": null,
"twImgId": null
},
"ttid": 36197,
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/maga"
},
"news_33927": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_33927",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "33927",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "RFK Jr.",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "RFK Jr. Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 33944,
"slug": "rfk-jr",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/rfk-jr"
},
"news_33732": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_33732",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "33732",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "Technology",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "interest",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "Technology Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 33749,
"slug": "technology",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/interest/technology"
},
"forum_3": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "forum_3",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "forum",
"id": "3",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"name": "Forum",
"slug": "forum",
"taxonomy": "program",
"description": "\u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> finds the most interesting stories about where we live and who we are, and charts where our region and world are headed. Hosts Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal invite communities in the Bay Area and California to engage in meaningful conversation in a two-hour live show that informs and challenges listeners with big ideas and different viewpoints.\r\n\r\nAt 9 a.m., Alexis gives the mic to the Bay Area, from San Rafael to San Jose, and at 10 a.m. with Mina, the perspective widens to all of California.Want to call/submit your comments during our live \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> program Mon-Fri, 9am-11am? We'd love to hear from you! Please dial 866.SF.FORUM or \u003cstrong>(866) 733-6786\u003c/strong>, email \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/search?q=%40kqedforum\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">tweet\u003c/a>, or post on \u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/KQEDForum/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Facebook\u003c/a>.",
"featImg": null,
"headData": {
"title": "Forum - Forum",
"description": "Forum finds the most interesting stories about where we live and who we are, and charts where our region and world are headed. Hosts Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal invite communities in the Bay Area and California to engage in meaningful conversation in a two-hour live show that informs and challenges listeners with big ideas and different viewpoints. At 9 a.m., Alexis gives the mic to the Bay Area, from San Rafael to San Jose, and at 10 a.m. with Mina, the perspective widens to all of California.Want to call/submit your comments during our live Forum program Mon-Fri, 9am-11am? We'd love to hear from you! Please dial 866.SF.FORUM or (866) 733-6786, email forum@kqed.org, tweet, or post on Facebook.",
"ogTitle": null,
"ogDescription": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"twDescription": null,
"twImgId": null
},
"ttid": 3,
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/forum/program/forum"
},
"forum_1623": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "forum_1623",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "forum",
"id": "1623",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "Podcast",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "category",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "Podcast Archives - KQED Forum",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 1623,
"slug": "podcast",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/forum/category/podcast"
},
"forum_1635": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "forum_1635",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "forum",
"id": "1635",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "Arts and Culture",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "interest",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "Arts and Culture Archives - Forum",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 1635,
"slug": "arts-and-culture",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/forum/interest/arts-and-culture"
},
"forum_1642": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "forum_1642",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "forum",
"id": "1642",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "North Bay",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "interest",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "North Bay Archives - Forum",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 1642,
"slug": "north-bay",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/forum/interest/north-bay"
}
},
"userPermissionsReducer": {
"wpLoggedIn": false
},
"eventsReducer": {},
"fssReducer": {},
"tvDailyScheduleReducer": {},
"tvWeeklyScheduleReducer": {},
"tvPrimetimeScheduleReducer": {},
"tvMonthlyScheduleReducer": {},
"userAccountReducer": {
"user": {
"email": null,
"emailStatus": "EMAIL_UNVALIDATED",
"loggedStatus": "LOGGED_OUT",
"loggingChecked": false,
"articles": [],
"firstName": null,
"lastName": null,
"phoneNumber": null,
"fetchingMembership": false,
"membershipError": false,
"memberships": [
{
"id": null,
"startDate": null,
"firstName": null,
"lastName": null,
"familyNumber": null,
"memberNumber": null,
"memberSince": null,
"expirationDate": null,
"pfsEligible": false,
"isSustaining": false,
"membershipLevel": "Prospect",
"membershipStatus": "Non Member",
"lastGiftDate": null,
"renewalDate": null,
"lastDonationAmount": null
}
]
},
"authModal": {
"isOpen": false,
"view": "LANDING_VIEW"
},
"error": null
},
"youthMediaReducer": {},
"checkPleaseReducer": {
"filterData": {
"region": {
"key": "Restaurant Region",
"filters": [
"Any Region"
]
},
"cuisine": {
"key": "Restaurant Cuisine",
"filters": [
"Any Cuisine"
]
}
},
"restaurantDataById": {},
"restaurantIdsSorted": [],
"error": null
},
"userAgentReducer": {
"userAgent": "Mozilla/5.0 AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko; compatible; ClaudeBot/1.0; +claudebot@anthropic.com)",
"isBot": true
},
"requestOutcomesReducer": {
"notFound": []
},
"navPromosReducer": {
"isFetching": false,
"fetchFailed": false,
"hasFetched": true,
"promos": {
"news": {
"name": "2026 Voter Guide",
"link": "/voterguide",
"imageURL": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2026/10/Nav-News-Nov2026ElectionCoverage@2x-7bd4aad4.png",
"description": "Get informed in minutes with our Voter Guide for California’s November 3 election."
},
"podcasts-radio": {},
"video-tv": {},
"events": {},
"support": {}
}
}
}
