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"content": "\u003cp>David Anderson has a knack for fixing computers. He’s gotten a lot of practice at McClymonds High School in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/west-oakland\">West Oakland\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On a recent afternoon, the 17-year-old junior quickly replaced a screen. There were laptops from all over the school district marked with sticky notes with messages such as “charger not working” or “screen cracked.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ You get to learn the layout of a computer and how they work,” Anderson said. “It gives people the skills to actually repair their own things.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Anderson is one of three paid student interns at McClymonds High School who help repair and maintain the 41,000 Chromebooks used by more than 33,000 Oakland Unified School District students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The program, called OUSD Tech Repair Hub, started in the summer of 2021 as the district navigated remote learning in response to COVID-19, which the World Health Organization \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11864254/march-11-2020-the-day-everything-changed\">declared a global pandemic\u003c/a> five years ago Tuesday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12028942\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-2.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12028942\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-2-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-2-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-2-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-2-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">David Anderson, a junior at McClymonds High School, works through a stack of broken Chromebooks at his job as one of three paid interns at his high school under Oakland Unified’s student-led Chromebook repair program, where students are hired to repair the devices during the school year. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12028951\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-29_duo.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12028951\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-29_duo.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"660\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-29_duo.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-29_duo-800x264.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-29_duo-1020x337.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-29_duo-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-29_duo-1536x507.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-29_duo-1920x634.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The district maintains 41,000 Chromebooks, many of them repaired by students. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12028933\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-7.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12028933\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-7.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-7.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-7-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-7-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-7-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-7-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-7-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A Chromebook with a removed bezel is ready to be repaired by one of the students who work up to eight hours a week during the school year and receive $18/hr. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>OUSD’s Technology Services teach the student interns, who are paid $18 an hour, to repair keyboards, screens and batteries. The program also relies heavily on peer-to-peer education, with more experienced students teaching those who are new to the program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SDnOjqusgA\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The students at McClymonds work during their free periods for up to eight hours a week during the school year. The district also operates repair hubs at Oakland High School and Fremont High School. According to OUSD, the hubs have repaired over 800 devices so far this school year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12028943\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-11.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12028943\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-11.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-11.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-11-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-11-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-11-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-11-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-11-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">From left, interns David Anderson and Gavin Armstrong, along with Colleen Piper, a college readiness manager, and Samantha Nuñez, an IT program manager, organize stacks of Chromebooks that need to be repaired. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12028946\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12028946\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1348\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19-800x539.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19-1020x687.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19-160x108.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19-1536x1035.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19-1920x1294.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">From left, interns and high school juniors Gavin Armstrong and David Anderson look at a broken Chromebook during their free period. This internship programs helps reduce OUSD’s carbon footprint in addition to saving the district money with each repair. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>During the summer, the program employs 15 interns who work 30 hours a week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ We always thought that this was something that students would be able to do, and it frees up OUSD’s Tech Services to do more complicated repairs,” said Sam Berg, OUSD’s computer science coordinator.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Berg estimates the program saves OUSD about $240 for every Chromebook repair. The program also helps reduce OUSD’s carbon footprint. When a Chromebook breaks, the interns harvest reusable parts to be used to keep other Chromebooks in service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12028960\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-14_duo.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12028960 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-14_duo.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1235\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-14_duo.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-14_duo-800x494.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-14_duo-1020x630.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-14_duo-160x99.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-14_duo-1536x948.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-14_duo-1920x1186.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">California is one of several states that have passed “right-to-repair” legislation in recent years. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12028936\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12028936\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Anderson says his internship with the \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OUSD Tech Repair Hub\u003c/span> “\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">gives people the skills to actually repair their own things.”\u003c/span> \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Last June, California joined a small but growing list of states that have passed \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11976367/bay-areas-fix-it-culture-thrives-as-right-to-repair-law-takes-effect-soon\">“right-to-repair” legislation\u003c/a>. The law is boosting programs like OUSD’s by requiring manufacturers of appliances and electronics to provide consumers with parts, tools, and information needed for repairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nehemiah Cody, a senior at McClymonds, will be the school’s eighth intern to graduate from the program. He said the internship has inspired him to consider pursuing biomedical engineering in college.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This internship opened a lot of doors for me,” Cody, 17, said. “ Anytime I see something broken, I feel like I can fix it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>David Anderson has a knack for fixing computers. He’s gotten a lot of practice at McClymonds High School in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/west-oakland\">West Oakland\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On a recent afternoon, the 17-year-old junior quickly replaced a screen. There were laptops from all over the school district marked with sticky notes with messages such as “charger not working” or “screen cracked.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ You get to learn the layout of a computer and how they work,” Anderson said. “It gives people the skills to actually repair their own things.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Anderson is one of three paid student interns at McClymonds High School who help repair and maintain the 41,000 Chromebooks used by more than 33,000 Oakland Unified School District students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The program, called OUSD Tech Repair Hub, started in the summer of 2021 as the district navigated remote learning in response to COVID-19, which the World Health Organization \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11864254/march-11-2020-the-day-everything-changed\">declared a global pandemic\u003c/a> five years ago Tuesday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12028942\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-2.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12028942\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-2-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-2-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-2-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-2-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">David Anderson, a junior at McClymonds High School, works through a stack of broken Chromebooks at his job as one of three paid interns at his high school under Oakland Unified’s student-led Chromebook repair program, where students are hired to repair the devices during the school year. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12028951\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-29_duo.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12028951\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-29_duo.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"660\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-29_duo.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-29_duo-800x264.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-29_duo-1020x337.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-29_duo-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-29_duo-1536x507.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-29_duo-1920x634.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The district maintains 41,000 Chromebooks, many of them repaired by students. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12028933\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-7.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12028933\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-7.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-7.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-7-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-7-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-7-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-7-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-7-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A Chromebook with a removed bezel is ready to be repaired by one of the students who work up to eight hours a week during the school year and receive $18/hr. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>OUSD’s Technology Services teach the student interns, who are paid $18 an hour, to repair keyboards, screens and batteries. The program also relies heavily on peer-to-peer education, with more experienced students teaching those who are new to the program.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/4SDnOjqusgA'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/4SDnOjqusgA'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>The students at McClymonds work during their free periods for up to eight hours a week during the school year. The district also operates repair hubs at Oakland High School and Fremont High School. According to OUSD, the hubs have repaired over 800 devices so far this school year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12028943\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-11.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12028943\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-11.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-11.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-11-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-11-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-11-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-11-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-11-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">From left, interns David Anderson and Gavin Armstrong, along with Colleen Piper, a college readiness manager, and Samantha Nuñez, an IT program manager, organize stacks of Chromebooks that need to be repaired. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12028946\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12028946\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1348\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19-800x539.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19-1020x687.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19-160x108.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19-1536x1035.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19-1920x1294.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">From left, interns and high school juniors Gavin Armstrong and David Anderson look at a broken Chromebook during their free period. This internship programs helps reduce OUSD’s carbon footprint in addition to saving the district money with each repair. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>During the summer, the program employs 15 interns who work 30 hours a week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ We always thought that this was something that students would be able to do, and it frees up OUSD’s Tech Services to do more complicated repairs,” said Sam Berg, OUSD’s computer science coordinator.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Berg estimates the program saves OUSD about $240 for every Chromebook repair. The program also helps reduce OUSD’s carbon footprint. When a Chromebook breaks, the interns harvest reusable parts to be used to keep other Chromebooks in service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12028960\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-14_duo.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12028960 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-14_duo.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1235\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-14_duo.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-14_duo-800x494.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-14_duo-1020x630.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-14_duo-160x99.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-14_duo-1536x948.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250211_OUSDChromebooks_GC-14_duo-1920x1186.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">California is one of several states that have passed “right-to-repair” legislation in recent years. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12028936\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12028936\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/20250206_OUSDChromebooks_GC-19-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Anderson says his internship with the \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OUSD Tech Repair Hub\u003c/span> “\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">gives people the skills to actually repair their own things.”\u003c/span> \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Last June, California joined a small but growing list of states that have passed \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11976367/bay-areas-fix-it-culture-thrives-as-right-to-repair-law-takes-effect-soon\">“right-to-repair” legislation\u003c/a>. The law is boosting programs like OUSD’s by requiring manufacturers of appliances and electronics to provide consumers with parts, tools, and information needed for repairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nehemiah Cody, a senior at McClymonds, will be the school’s eighth intern to graduate from the program. He said the internship has inspired him to consider pursuing biomedical engineering in college.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This internship opened a lot of doors for me,” Cody, 17, said. “ Anytime I see something broken, I feel like I can fix it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "newsom-should-intervene-in-vta-strike-expert-says",
"title": "Newsom Should Intervene in VTA Strike, Expert Says",
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"headTitle": "Newsom Should Intervene in VTA Strike, Expert Says | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>Updated 3:45 p.m. Friday\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A flurry of court filings this week is revealing more of the apparent bad blood between the South Bay’s lead transit agency and its largest labor union amid a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12030951/vta-strike-underscores-silicon-valleys-widening-income-inequality\">historic strike\u003c/a> over contract negotiations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Amalgamated Transit Union Local 265, which represents more than 1,500 bus drivers, train operators and maintenance workers, and the Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority, have both accused the other of causing the strike and of bad-faith bargaining.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, as bus and light rail services are at a standstill for a fifth straight day, forcing tens of thousands to find alternative ways to get around, some labor law experts say the courts may not be the best route to end the strike, and the governor should step in to move things along.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The business of jaw-jawing and discussing is always better than warfare, which can be harmful to the public,” William B. Gould IV, a professor emeritus at Stanford Law School, said of the ongoing dispute. Gould was the former chair of the National Labor Relations Board from 1994 to 1998.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gould said he was “puzzled” that the governor hasn’t gotten involved yet to help mediate between the parties or, if necessary, to order a panel to do fact-finding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>VTA officials said they plan to pursue the governor’s involvement for a possible “cooling off period,” which could pause the strike while negotiations continue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12030673\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250220-VTASTRIKED1.-JG-8.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12030673\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250220-VTASTRIKED1.-JG-8.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250220-VTASTRIKED1.-JG-8.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250220-VTASTRIKED1.-JG-8-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250220-VTASTRIKED1.-JG-8-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250220-VTASTRIKED1.-JG-8-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250220-VTASTRIKED1.-JG-8-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250220-VTASTRIKED1.-JG-8-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Striking VTA workers picket acknowledge a passing honking car outside the agency’s headquarters on North First Street in San José on March 10, 2025. \u003ccite>(Joseph Geha/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Gov. Gavin Newsom’s office did not respond to a request for comment on the situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I would think that the time is right and propitious for the governor to intervene,” Gould said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For all of Thursday and part of Friday, the union and the agency met with a mediator for the first negotiations since the strike began, according to Raj Singh, the union president. However, a resolution was not able to be reached, and no further talks were scheduled as of Friday afternoon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The VTA, in a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12030759/vta-sues-to-end-historic-south-bay-transit-workers-strike\">complaint filed in court late Monday night\u003c/a>, followed by several more supporting filings on Wednesday and Thursday, claims the union is violating the “no-strike clause” of a collective bargaining agreement between the agency and the union.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The agency alleges the union did not give VTA proper notice it wanted to end or change the agreement, which expired on March 3, and claims the no-strike conditions are in full effect for another year while negotiations for a new contract continue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12029843 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/240620-AffordableHousingPresser-10-BL_qed-1-1020x680.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The union, for its part, responded Thursday in a filing asking the judge to reject the VTA’s request. The union claims it’s clear the contract rules are no longer applicable because bargaining for a new contract had ended, as neither side budged off their last, best and final offers, and the union declared an impasse a few days before the strike began.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The law firm representing the VTA deferred comment to the agency, and the attorneys representing the ATU did not respond to a request for comment on Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Both sides clearly have different interpretations of the contract language,” Greg Richardson, the deputy general manager for VTA, said Wednesday during a news conference. “Our belief is the current contract, although beyond its term, remains in full force during negotiations, and as such, the no strike clause is still in effect.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Richardson said the lawsuit is one more attempt the agency is making to try and get service back for the tens of thousands of riders who depend on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Raj Singh, the president of ATU Local 265, said the lawsuit shows the “true colors” of the agency’s leadership and said VTA has “pushed us to this point” by wasting months of bargaining time ahead of the strike.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Instead of trying to resolve this immediately, they’re choosing to litigate and go the long route. I hope that the public is seeing this,” Singh said Wednesday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12022979\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/01062023-Newsom-Inauguration-RL-CM-03-copy.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12022979\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/01062023-Newsom-Inauguration-RL-CM-03-copy.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/01062023-Newsom-Inauguration-RL-CM-03-copy.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/01062023-Newsom-Inauguration-RL-CM-03-copy-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/01062023-Newsom-Inauguration-RL-CM-03-copy-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/01062023-Newsom-Inauguration-RL-CM-03-copy-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/01062023-Newsom-Inauguration-RL-CM-03-copy-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/01062023-Newsom-Inauguration-RL-CM-03-copy-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Gov. Gavin Newsom addresses attendees during his inauguration for a second term at the Plaza de California in Sacramento on Jan. 6, 2023. VTA officials said they plan to pursue the governor’s involvement for a possible ‘cooling off period,’ which could pause the strike while negotiations continue. \u003ccite>(Rahul Lal/CalMatters)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The agency’s filings accuse the union of “bad faith behavior” at the bargaining table and said for negotiations to work, the union must “want to act in the interest of the great public they serve and understand that their public agency employer’s financial means are limited by available public tax dollars,” the filing said. “The sooner that ATU remembers this, the better.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While the legal fight plays out in the courts, one labor expert said a judge should not intervene in this dispute between workers and their employer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Robert Ovetz, a senior political science lecturer at San José State University who teaches labor relations in the Master’s of Public Administration program, said there’s a long history of courts being used to break strikes and bust unions, especially before the passage of the National Labor Relations Act in 1935.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Ultimately, the only real tool that workers have in asserting their interests is to stop working, to go on strike,” Ovetz said. “And so it would be very, very problematic for a judge to step in and then prevent them from being able to use that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ovetz said it seemed clear to him that negotiations had broken down when the strike was started, and he thinks a judge wouldn’t have a basis to grant an injunction to stop the strike. The best way to end the dispute is to simply return to bargaining, he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As of Friday morning, the VTA said no date was set for an initial court hearing, and a judge was not assigned to the case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>Updated 3:45 p.m. Friday\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A flurry of court filings this week is revealing more of the apparent bad blood between the South Bay’s lead transit agency and its largest labor union amid a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12030951/vta-strike-underscores-silicon-valleys-widening-income-inequality\">historic strike\u003c/a> over contract negotiations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Amalgamated Transit Union Local 265, which represents more than 1,500 bus drivers, train operators and maintenance workers, and the Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority, have both accused the other of causing the strike and of bad-faith bargaining.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, as bus and light rail services are at a standstill for a fifth straight day, forcing tens of thousands to find alternative ways to get around, some labor law experts say the courts may not be the best route to end the strike, and the governor should step in to move things along.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The business of jaw-jawing and discussing is always better than warfare, which can be harmful to the public,” William B. Gould IV, a professor emeritus at Stanford Law School, said of the ongoing dispute. Gould was the former chair of the National Labor Relations Board from 1994 to 1998.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gould said he was “puzzled” that the governor hasn’t gotten involved yet to help mediate between the parties or, if necessary, to order a panel to do fact-finding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>VTA officials said they plan to pursue the governor’s involvement for a possible “cooling off period,” which could pause the strike while negotiations continue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12030673\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250220-VTASTRIKED1.-JG-8.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12030673\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250220-VTASTRIKED1.-JG-8.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250220-VTASTRIKED1.-JG-8.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250220-VTASTRIKED1.-JG-8-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250220-VTASTRIKED1.-JG-8-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250220-VTASTRIKED1.-JG-8-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250220-VTASTRIKED1.-JG-8-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/250220-VTASTRIKED1.-JG-8-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Striking VTA workers picket acknowledge a passing honking car outside the agency’s headquarters on North First Street in San José on March 10, 2025. \u003ccite>(Joseph Geha/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Gov. Gavin Newsom’s office did not respond to a request for comment on the situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I would think that the time is right and propitious for the governor to intervene,” Gould said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For all of Thursday and part of Friday, the union and the agency met with a mediator for the first negotiations since the strike began, according to Raj Singh, the union president. However, a resolution was not able to be reached, and no further talks were scheduled as of Friday afternoon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The VTA, in a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12030759/vta-sues-to-end-historic-south-bay-transit-workers-strike\">complaint filed in court late Monday night\u003c/a>, followed by several more supporting filings on Wednesday and Thursday, claims the union is violating the “no-strike clause” of a collective bargaining agreement between the agency and the union.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The agency alleges the union did not give VTA proper notice it wanted to end or change the agreement, which expired on March 3, and claims the no-strike conditions are in full effect for another year while negotiations for a new contract continue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The union, for its part, responded Thursday in a filing asking the judge to reject the VTA’s request. The union claims it’s clear the contract rules are no longer applicable because bargaining for a new contract had ended, as neither side budged off their last, best and final offers, and the union declared an impasse a few days before the strike began.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The law firm representing the VTA deferred comment to the agency, and the attorneys representing the ATU did not respond to a request for comment on Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Both sides clearly have different interpretations of the contract language,” Greg Richardson, the deputy general manager for VTA, said Wednesday during a news conference. “Our belief is the current contract, although beyond its term, remains in full force during negotiations, and as such, the no strike clause is still in effect.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Richardson said the lawsuit is one more attempt the agency is making to try and get service back for the tens of thousands of riders who depend on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Raj Singh, the president of ATU Local 265, said the lawsuit shows the “true colors” of the agency’s leadership and said VTA has “pushed us to this point” by wasting months of bargaining time ahead of the strike.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Instead of trying to resolve this immediately, they’re choosing to litigate and go the long route. I hope that the public is seeing this,” Singh said Wednesday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12022979\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/01062023-Newsom-Inauguration-RL-CM-03-copy.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12022979\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/01062023-Newsom-Inauguration-RL-CM-03-copy.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/01062023-Newsom-Inauguration-RL-CM-03-copy.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/01062023-Newsom-Inauguration-RL-CM-03-copy-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/01062023-Newsom-Inauguration-RL-CM-03-copy-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/01062023-Newsom-Inauguration-RL-CM-03-copy-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/01062023-Newsom-Inauguration-RL-CM-03-copy-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/01062023-Newsom-Inauguration-RL-CM-03-copy-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Gov. Gavin Newsom addresses attendees during his inauguration for a second term at the Plaza de California in Sacramento on Jan. 6, 2023. VTA officials said they plan to pursue the governor’s involvement for a possible ‘cooling off period,’ which could pause the strike while negotiations continue. \u003ccite>(Rahul Lal/CalMatters)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The agency’s filings accuse the union of “bad faith behavior” at the bargaining table and said for negotiations to work, the union must “want to act in the interest of the great public they serve and understand that their public agency employer’s financial means are limited by available public tax dollars,” the filing said. “The sooner that ATU remembers this, the better.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While the legal fight plays out in the courts, one labor expert said a judge should not intervene in this dispute between workers and their employer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Robert Ovetz, a senior political science lecturer at San José State University who teaches labor relations in the Master’s of Public Administration program, said there’s a long history of courts being used to break strikes and bust unions, especially before the passage of the National Labor Relations Act in 1935.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Ultimately, the only real tool that workers have in asserting their interests is to stop working, to go on strike,” Ovetz said. “And so it would be very, very problematic for a judge to step in and then prevent them from being able to use that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ovetz said it seemed clear to him that negotiations had broken down when the strike was started, and he thinks a judge wouldn’t have a basis to grant an injunction to stop the strike. The best way to end the dispute is to simply return to bargaining, he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As of Friday morning, the VTA said no date was set for an initial court hearing, and a judge was not assigned to the case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "metas-efforts-to-block-explosive-expose-in-arbitration-likely-to-fail-labor-experts-say",
"title": "Meta’s Efforts to Block Explosive Expose in Arbitration Likely to Fail, Labor Experts Say",
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"headTitle": "Meta’s Efforts to Block Explosive Expose in Arbitration Likely to Fail, Labor Experts Say | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>Federal labor law enforcement is up in the air these days, thanks to\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/donald-trump\"> the Trump administration’s\u003c/a> effort to downsize the government. But experts say there are a host of laws — federal and state — that protect the just-released memoir \u003ca href=\"https://www.amazon.com/dp/1250391237\">\u003cem>Careless People\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>: A Cautionary Tale of Power, Greed, and Lost Idealism\u003c/em>, written by a former director of global public policy at Meta.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The book by former Facebook employee Sarah Wynn-Williams makes \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/10/books/review/careless-people-sarah-wynn-williams.html\">incendiary allegations\u003c/a> of sexual harassment and other potentially illegal behavior by top-level executives during her seven years at the social media giant based in Menlo Park. In a blurb on Amazon, the book promises “shocking accounts of misogyny and double standards behind the scenes,” along with depictions of “unfettered power and a rotten company culture.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Wynn-Williams also filed\u003ca href=\"https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2025/03/09/meta-china-censorship-facebook-mark-zuckerberg/\"> a whistle-blower complaint\u003c/a> to the Securities and Exchange Commission last week, claiming Meta was so desperate to operate in China and ingratiate itself with the Chinese Communist Party that it was willing to censor content and shut down political dissent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, an arbitrator temporarily stopped Wynn-Williams from promoting the book, siding with Meta’s argument that she had violated the non-disparagement agreement or NDA she signed when she was an employee of the company. In the \u003ca href=\"https://about.fb.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Arbitration-Interim-Award.pdf\">ruling\u003c/a>, emergency arbitrator Nicholas Gowen wrote that Meta “has established a likelihood of success on the merits of its contractual non-disparagement claim against Respondent Wynn-Williams and that immediate and irreparable loss will result in the absence of emergency relief.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A Meta spokesperson wrote KQED, “We took immediate legal action due to the false and defamatory nature of the allegations.” They added, “This book is a mix of out-of-date and previously reported claims about the company and false accusations about our executives. Eight years ago, Sarah Wynn-Williams was fired for poor performance and toxic behavior, and an investigation at the time determined she made misleading and unfounded allegations of harassment.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12020607\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1100px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/npr.brightspotcdn-copy.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12020607\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/npr.brightspotcdn-copy.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1100\" height=\"733\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/npr.brightspotcdn-copy.jpg 1100w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-160x107.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1100px) 100vw, 1100px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mark Zuckerberg, CEO of Meta, testifies during the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee hearing, ‘Big Tech and the Online Child Sexual Exploitation Crisis,’ in Washington, D.C., on Jan. 31, 2024. \u003ccite>(Brendan Smialowski/AFP)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Some former Meta employees are coming forward to defend the company, including Mike Rognlien, who \u003ca href=\"https://www.threads.net/@badmikeyt/post/DHHfpWQykPC?xmt=AQGz0MND3an--2-q2sfIURuFSqWVXPJHKm2FCxNZRrV_lA\">wrote on Threads\u003c/a>, “People are so thirsty for anything disparaging to Meta. I sat next to Sarah for 18 months when we both worked in the New York office and we were both working closely with Sheryl Sandberg at the time. Never a word of this was mentioned, and we talked shit about loooooots of stuff. I have recently/publicly taken meta task for everything that they’re doing to dismantle dei, but I didn’t have to make up a thing to tell the story.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Arbitration is commonly understood to favor employers over employees, but “an arbitrator cannot violate the law,” said Catherine Fisk of UC Berkeley’s Law School, where she teaches employment and labor law. She also works as an arbitrator in labor management matters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“To the extent that [Wynn-Williams] is criticizing working conditions, employees have had a right to criticize working conditions under federal labor law for, lo, these 90 years. And unless — and until — Congress repeals that statute, or the [the National Labor Relations Board] overturns its decision, or the Supreme Court overturns that decision, it’s protected concerted activities,” Fisk told KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_11860458 hero='https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2021/02/1369_transform-2-1020x680.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Stanford labor law professor William Gould, who served as chair of the NLRB from 1994 to 1998, wrote in an email, “The Biden National Labor Relations Board has held that an employer cannot lawfully condition a severance arrangement upon a non disclosure non disparagement promise agreement.” While Gould acknowledged the ruling is likely to be reversed by Trump appointees, the Biden ruling remains intact.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California law also makes it clear \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2021/03/06/973439404/it-really-is-a-gag-order-california-may-limit-nondisclosure-agreements\">workers can talk about sexual harassment\u003c/a> or gender-related misconduct without fear of reprisal from their employer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fisk added the arbitrator, Gowen, has no jurisdiction over the publishing company, although Meta could sue or threaten to sue the publisher for defamation. Macmillan Publishers, which published the book under its Flatiron Books imprint, posted on\u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=1271075701251400&set=a.820130836345891\"> Facebook\u003c/a>, “We are appalled by Meta’s tactics to silence our author through the use of a non-disparagement clause in a severance agreement.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2018, Meta said it would no longer force employees to\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/09/technology/facebook-arbitration-harassment.html\"> settle sexual harassment claims in private arbitration\u003c/a>. In 2022, Meta’s board of directors wrote in a \u003ca href=\"https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1326801/000132680122000043/meta2022definitiveproxysta.htm\">shareholder report\u003c/a>, “We do not require or encourage our personnel to remain silent about harassment or discrimination.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2023, the NLRB ruled that it is generally illegal for companies to offer severance agreements that prohibit workers from making potentially disparaging statements about former employers, including discussing sexual harassment or sexual assault accusations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Federal labor law enforcement is up in the air these days, thanks to\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/donald-trump\"> the Trump administration’s\u003c/a> effort to downsize the government. But experts say there are a host of laws — federal and state — that protect the just-released memoir \u003ca href=\"https://www.amazon.com/dp/1250391237\">\u003cem>Careless People\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>: A Cautionary Tale of Power, Greed, and Lost Idealism\u003c/em>, written by a former director of global public policy at Meta.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The book by former Facebook employee Sarah Wynn-Williams makes \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/10/books/review/careless-people-sarah-wynn-williams.html\">incendiary allegations\u003c/a> of sexual harassment and other potentially illegal behavior by top-level executives during her seven years at the social media giant based in Menlo Park. In a blurb on Amazon, the book promises “shocking accounts of misogyny and double standards behind the scenes,” along with depictions of “unfettered power and a rotten company culture.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Wynn-Williams also filed\u003ca href=\"https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2025/03/09/meta-china-censorship-facebook-mark-zuckerberg/\"> a whistle-blower complaint\u003c/a> to the Securities and Exchange Commission last week, claiming Meta was so desperate to operate in China and ingratiate itself with the Chinese Communist Party that it was willing to censor content and shut down political dissent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, an arbitrator temporarily stopped Wynn-Williams from promoting the book, siding with Meta’s argument that she had violated the non-disparagement agreement or NDA she signed when she was an employee of the company. In the \u003ca href=\"https://about.fb.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Arbitration-Interim-Award.pdf\">ruling\u003c/a>, emergency arbitrator Nicholas Gowen wrote that Meta “has established a likelihood of success on the merits of its contractual non-disparagement claim against Respondent Wynn-Williams and that immediate and irreparable loss will result in the absence of emergency relief.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A Meta spokesperson wrote KQED, “We took immediate legal action due to the false and defamatory nature of the allegations.” They added, “This book is a mix of out-of-date and previously reported claims about the company and false accusations about our executives. Eight years ago, Sarah Wynn-Williams was fired for poor performance and toxic behavior, and an investigation at the time determined she made misleading and unfounded allegations of harassment.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12020607\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1100px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/npr.brightspotcdn-copy.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12020607\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/npr.brightspotcdn-copy.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1100\" height=\"733\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/npr.brightspotcdn-copy.jpg 1100w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-160x107.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1100px) 100vw, 1100px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mark Zuckerberg, CEO of Meta, testifies during the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee hearing, ‘Big Tech and the Online Child Sexual Exploitation Crisis,’ in Washington, D.C., on Jan. 31, 2024. \u003ccite>(Brendan Smialowski/AFP)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Some former Meta employees are coming forward to defend the company, including Mike Rognlien, who \u003ca href=\"https://www.threads.net/@badmikeyt/post/DHHfpWQykPC?xmt=AQGz0MND3an--2-q2sfIURuFSqWVXPJHKm2FCxNZRrV_lA\">wrote on Threads\u003c/a>, “People are so thirsty for anything disparaging to Meta. I sat next to Sarah for 18 months when we both worked in the New York office and we were both working closely with Sheryl Sandberg at the time. Never a word of this was mentioned, and we talked shit about loooooots of stuff. I have recently/publicly taken meta task for everything that they’re doing to dismantle dei, but I didn’t have to make up a thing to tell the story.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Arbitration is commonly understood to favor employers over employees, but “an arbitrator cannot violate the law,” said Catherine Fisk of UC Berkeley’s Law School, where she teaches employment and labor law. She also works as an arbitrator in labor management matters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“To the extent that [Wynn-Williams] is criticizing working conditions, employees have had a right to criticize working conditions under federal labor law for, lo, these 90 years. And unless — and until — Congress repeals that statute, or the [the National Labor Relations Board] overturns its decision, or the Supreme Court overturns that decision, it’s protected concerted activities,” Fisk told KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Stanford labor law professor William Gould, who served as chair of the NLRB from 1994 to 1998, wrote in an email, “The Biden National Labor Relations Board has held that an employer cannot lawfully condition a severance arrangement upon a non disclosure non disparagement promise agreement.” While Gould acknowledged the ruling is likely to be reversed by Trump appointees, the Biden ruling remains intact.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California law also makes it clear \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2021/03/06/973439404/it-really-is-a-gag-order-california-may-limit-nondisclosure-agreements\">workers can talk about sexual harassment\u003c/a> or gender-related misconduct without fear of reprisal from their employer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fisk added the arbitrator, Gowen, has no jurisdiction over the publishing company, although Meta could sue or threaten to sue the publisher for defamation. Macmillan Publishers, which published the book under its Flatiron Books imprint, posted on\u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=1271075701251400&set=a.820130836345891\"> Facebook\u003c/a>, “We are appalled by Meta’s tactics to silence our author through the use of a non-disparagement clause in a severance agreement.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2018, Meta said it would no longer force employees to\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/09/technology/facebook-arbitration-harassment.html\"> settle sexual harassment claims in private arbitration\u003c/a>. In 2022, Meta’s board of directors wrote in a \u003ca href=\"https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1326801/000132680122000043/meta2022definitiveproxysta.htm\">shareholder report\u003c/a>, “We do not require or encourage our personnel to remain silent about harassment or discrimination.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2023, the NLRB ruled that it is generally illegal for companies to offer severance agreements that prohibit workers from making potentially disparaging statements about former employers, including discussing sexual harassment or sexual assault accusations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>If you think of your car as a smartphone on wheels, it’s easy to grasp how the auto industry can sell and profit from personal data. Many newer vehicles constantly communicate with car makers, thanks to features like location sharing, smartphone integration, and cameras.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Californians are legally entitled to opt out of the sale and sharing of their personal data, but Honda was making that too difficult, according to the California Privacy Protection Agency, which was established in 2020 when voters approved the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11844163/proposition-24-californians-say-yes-to-expanding-on-nations-toughest-data-privacy-law\">California Privacy Rights Act\u003c/a>. It’s the nation’s first and, so far, only state agency charged with protecting consumer data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, the agency issued a $632,500 fine against American Honda Motor Company as part of the agency’s \u003ca href=\"https://cppa.ca.gov/announcements/2023/20230731.html\">first investigation\u003c/a> since it gained enforcement powers in 2023.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Whether that information comes from the car, whether it comes from the website, whether it comes from elsewhere, it is protectable, but only if people assert their rights,” said Michael Macko, the CPPA’s head of enforcement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The agency alleges that Honda violated Californians’ privacy rights, in part, by requiring Californians to provide “excessive” personal information in order to opt out of the sale or sharing of data; and by sharing consumers’ personal information with ad tech companies without producing contracts that contain the necessary terms to protect privacy.[aside postID=news_11771923 hero='https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/09/RS38899_Bugcrowd-Bug-Bash-1-qut-1020x680.jpg']In a statement, American Honda Motor Co., Inc. acknowledged it has agreed to pay the fine and simplify its opt-out process. “We have cooperated fully with the CPPA throughout their investigation and have already begun implementing the changes to our processes required by the order,” spokesman Chris Martin wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite the size of the fine, Macko says the company’s promise to change its behavior is more important. “Businesses are usually more reluctant to change their practices than they are to write a check.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Privacy advocates welcomed the CPPA ruling. “My hope is that enforcement actions like this generally incentivize companies to take consumer privacy more seriously across their products and services,” wrote Meghan Land, Executive Director of the Privacy Rights Clearinghouse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://news.bloomberglaw.com/tech-and-telecom-law/general-motors-settles-with-ftc-over-sharing-private-driver-data\">Federal Trade Commission\u003c/a> and other states like \u003ca href=\"https://news.bloomberglaw.com/privacy-and-data-security/texas-ag-probing-connected-cars-data-and-privacy-practices\">Texas\u003c/a> have also investigated the sharing and sale of personal data from vehicles, including driving habits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Self-driving Waymo robotaxis have become a familiar sight in cities like San Francisco and Los Angeles, but not everyone is happy about that. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">These “ghost-like” autonomous vehicles have made a lot of people uneasy, some even going as far as to vandalize the cars. But what’s behind this hostility? In this episode, Morgan speaks with \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bloomberg\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> journalist Ellen Huet and robot law professor Ryan Calo to explore the rise of Waymo vandalism and its roots in our collective anxiety over artificial intelligence. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC7694102813\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Guests:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.ellenhuet.com/\">Ellen Huet\u003c/a>, Features writer at Bloomberg News\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003ca href=\"https://ischool.uw.edu/people/faculty/profile/rcalo\">Ryan Calo\u003c/a>, Professor of Law at University of Washington\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Further reading:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2024-12-06/waymo-s-expansion-spurs-some-rage-against-the-self-driving-cars\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Waymo’s Expansion Provokes Anxieties of AI Takeover\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> – Ellen Huet, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bloomberg\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003ca href=\"https://qz.com/robotaxi-tesla-uber-lyft-waymo-mobileye-texas-1851759608\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The next big robotaxi push is almost here\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> — Harri Weber, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Quartz \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003ca href=\"https://slate.com/technology/2018/03/the-deadly-uber-self-driving-car-crash-is-just-the-beginning.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Courts Can Handle the Deadly Uber Self-Driving Car Crash. But that doesn’t mean the law is ready for autonomous vehicles.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> — Ryan Calo, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Slate\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/good-robot-bad-robot-jo-ann-oravec/1141932639\">Good Robot, Bad Robot: Dark and Creepy Sides of Robotics, Autonomous Vehicles, and AI\u003c/a> — Jo Ann Oravec, Professor at the University of Wisconsin\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harri Weber:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Do we look like influencers right now? Is this embarrassing to be walking up to a Waymo? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is me and my friend \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Harri Weber\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> booking my first ride in a Waymo. It’s a self -driving car service. Some people also call them robo-taxis. Wait, I think I have to unlock it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harri Weber:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh, there we go. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">For Morgan? No one’s going to respond. Waymo’s are, again, totally self -driving. There’s no human in the front seat. Hello from Waymo. As we get going, just give us one minute to cover a few… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harri Weber:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh god. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I invited Harry because she’s also a tech journalist and she covers the future of cars. She recently wrote about the expansion of robo -taxis for courts. And also, we both had a craving for deli sandwiches from this one spot with terrible street parking. So why not take a Waymo? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harri Weber:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s no one behind the wheel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Is there a real need for the steering wheel? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harri Weber:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Literally, I don’t see any purpose for it, but for whatever reason, there’s, you know, national laws require this steering wheel to still be there. It’s a little ghostly though, right? It’s nudging us around, it’s keeping us in the lane. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Waymo’s are something of a tourist attraction in California. My cousins always wanna take one whenever they come to visit me. But honestly, ever since Waymo’s launch a few months ago in Los Angeles, where Harri and I live, I’ve been pretty hesitant to take them. Part of it is, yeah, I don’t really trust a robot to drive me around, especially not through a very busy intersection in Koreatown during rush hour. But that’s where this car picked us up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harri Weber:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">These things aren’t perfect. Something could go wrong while we’re driving or while it’s moving us around. But Waymo’s claim based on its own data is that it is a lot safer than a human driver. I think that you’re probably more likely to find that they’re a nuisance than they are dangerous. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But despite their great track record when it comes to safety, I feel like Waymo mishaps are always going viral. Like a couple of weeks ago, there was a video of a Waymo in San Francisco, ignoring a public works crew and driving straight through a sinkhole. And then there was a video of a guy in Arizona who called a Waymo to take him to the airport, but got stuck in a parking lot. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Video Clip 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m in a Waymo car. This car is just going in circles. I got my seatbelt on, I can’t get out the car. Has this been hacked? What’s going on? I feel like I’m in the movies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Waymos make me feel a little uneasy, but it’s really other people’s reactions to Waymos that makes me nervous about being in one. Even getting in, in front of that coffee shop, did you feel self -conscious? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harri Weber:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, yeah, it felt a little uncool. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I felt so deeply uncool getting in. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harri Weber:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think something flipped when Google was first developing a driverless car. I think there was actually like a cool factor going, or maybe I was just that uncool that I thought it was cool. But tech criticism has evolved a lot since then. And so now we’re in this car and it does feel a little bit like we are maybe class traitors. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And it’s not just the uncool factor. Public reaction to Waymos has turned violent. Like this incident in San Francisco, where a bunch of guys started spray painting a Waymo while a group of women was inside. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Video Clip 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Why are you attacking us? Connecting to writer support. Call may be recorded. Oh my God. Oh my god! Holy shit! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There is also a recent viral video of people swarming a Waymo in Los Angeles. One of the guys in the video so gracefully leaps into the air and drop kicks the passenger door right off the hinges, while another person beats the Waymo’s windshield with a ripped off piece of its own front bumper. To be clear, it doesn’t seem like any living person has been hurt in any of these incidents, unless you count getting a little car sick. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Video Clip 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, I got a flight to catch. Why is this thing going in a circle? I’m getting dizzy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But to a lot of people, including myself, I’ll be honest, something about seeing robots do a human task just does not feel right. And clearly, it triggers some deep-seated instinct to attack. So what is behind this recent outburst of aggression against Waymos? Is it just that destroying them makes really good content that’s bound to go viral? Or is it our collective anxiety over the state of tech right now? This is Close All Tabs. I’m \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Morgan Sung\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. People are justifiably jaded against Silicon Valley and the idea of a robot takeover would make anyone nervous. But why take it out on Waymo? All right, we’re gonna kick this off like we usually do. A new tab, Waymo Vandalism. We’re gonna talk to \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ellen Huet\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. She covers technology and Silicon Valley and startup culture for Bloomberg, or as she puts it, all things at the intersection of tech and humans. And she wrote about how Waymo’s recent expansion provoked so -called AI anxiety. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ellen Huet:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">as long as these cars have been around in their various iterations, so probably over the last decade or so, people have reacted to them with suspicion and at times with violence. Like even back in 2018 when early Waymo vehicles were being tested in Arizona, people threw rocks at them, people like attacked the cars. Even if these cases are rare, it has been somewhat consistent that people react to robot cars at times with anger or violence or like attempting to kind of outsmart them. You know, there are early stories of people who figured out that you could confuse autonomous cars by putting a traffic cone on the hood of the car. Right, I’ve seen that. And I – Yeah, and like, there’s clearly some human impulse to try to almost like assert agency or control over this vehicle that, you know, in some existential sense is kind of a threat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I have to wonder how much product design plays a role in ensuring that people are more receptive to these cars. I mean, I’m thinking of, you know, that 2000s movie, Herbie Fully Loaded, how it’s like a cutesy little buggy. And if I saw that driving around, I wouldn’t want to, like, beat that up. But when I see, like, a Cybertruck, I’m like, oh, fight or flight, activated. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ellen Huet:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I guarantee lots of designers have spent a lot of time and energy thinking about this question. I remember, it must have been a decade ago, you know, I was a tech reporter, I was working at Forbes and I was invited to take a test drive in an early autonomous car. And what I remember most is that those early cars were designed to look so cute. Like it was like a little gumdrop shaped car and it was white and like its headlights We’re kind of that like. oval shape to make it look like, you know, like these cute little cartoon eyes. And yeah, I guarantee that designers and engineers spent a lot of time thinking about how to make this threatening-ish technology seem as cute and approachable as possible. But yeah, Waymo’s are obviously like kind of just like a normal-looking car. My guess is it’s not coincidence that they’re all white. maybe people associate that with, like, sort of angelic energy or something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But let’s talk about what’s at the root of this feeling that a lot of people have when confronted with a robot doing a human job. That is a new tab. Ready? Waymo and AI anxiety. Okay, so a lot of this anger against Waymo’s is due to the very real risk of job loss as robo-taxis begin replacing human drivers. But it’s also bigger than that. AI is moving into a lot of areas besides cars. In her story about this spike in Waymo vandalism, Ellen cited University of Wisconsin professor Jo Anne Oravec, who said that a lot of people are just not really comfortable with the realization that something else is intelligent. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ellen Huet:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think people sometimes direct their general anxiety about, like, job displacement from AI toward Waymos just because these are objects that exist in the physical world and that you can actually smash the windshield of a Waymo car in the way that you can’t quite attack ChatGPT, right? Like, I think in some sense they’re at a disadvantage by simply being, like, a physical object. And something that you are reminded of every time, you know, one drives by. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And the cars have also done things that are genuinely annoying. Like in San Francisco, there was this cluster of Waymo cars that had gotten trapped in a honking war with each other. So they were like up at the middle of the night, you know, it’s like 4:30 in the morning. And neighbors who were trying to sleep near wherever these cars are gathered were being woken up at night by the sound of all of these cars honking at each other. And like in the most nonsensical way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The term AI can mean a lot of different things. Autonomous vehicles like Waymo do use artificial intelligence. They use cameras to see, they’re trained to recognize objects and calculate the distance between them. But it’s pretty different from how a generative AI tool like ChatGPT works, or how other AI generators work to produce images, videos, and music. But to a lot of people, the anxiety is the same. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ellen Huet:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think what makes people have this reaction, regardless of what type of AI it is, is that these products are being designed to do actions and take on jobs and responsibilities that used to be solely the jurisdiction of humans, right? So it used to be like only people could see and drive and manipulate a car and now we can see that a human is not needed to do that. And it used to be that a human was needed to provide half of a conversation, you couldn’t have that, you know, without another person on the other side of the line. Now, that’s no longer true. So I think what we’re seeing is, even though the technology is different, in some cases and in some ways, the human reaction to it is the same. Because I think it’s provoking the same question of, well, where do I belong in this world where this thing that I used to do can be done by a non-human entity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s a Waymo ad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Waymo Advertisement: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Well, it’s finally happening. The robots, they’re coming. Maybe that’s a good thing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And like, Waymo’s clearly playing into people’s concerns about the robots, but putting like this positive spin on it. What do you think? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ellen Huet:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I mean, an ad like that makes me laugh because I just imagine, I wish I could be a fly on the wall in the marketing discussions that led to that copy because I’m sure they were like, guys, we have to address the fact that some people are scared of this, but let’s make it cheeky, let’s make it funny. There are researchers out there who study human-robot relations and some of the things that they explained to me were like these human-like. objects that can move with some intelligence in our world feel existentially unsettling to us because we don’t know where we fall in the pecking order anymore. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And don’t forget, we’ve been consuming so much sci-fi about how super advanced robots can totally disrupt our way of life. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>I, Robot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Robots don’t feel fear. They don’t feel anything. They don’t get hungry. They don’t sleep. I do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>M3gan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Megan, turn off. Are you sure? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>2001: A Space Odyssey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Open the pod bay doors, Hal. I’m sorry, Dave. I’m afraid I can’t do that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This pop culture fear of artificial intelligence and robots taking over has been around for a while, but it hasn’t been limited to the screen. Physical attacks on robots have been happening for over a decade. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ellen Huet:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A classic example is the story of Hitchbot. And the story of Hitchbot starts back in 2013 when a group of researchers decided they wanted to try to answer the question, can robots trust humans? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hitchbot will be depending on the kindness and the curiosity of strangers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So Hitchbot was this little humanoid robot that couldn’t really do much, but it was on a mission to hitchhike across Canada. It had a stocky, cylindrical body and goofy arms and legs made out of pool noodles. Its head had an LED panel with a little smiley face. Hitchbot couldn’t move on its own. It could only recognize human speech and engage in basic conversations, mostly to ask bystanders for help. It also had a GPS and took pictures of its surroundings every 20 minutes so that researchers could keep tabs on it. I mean, it was pretty adorable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ellen Huet:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And on its first few journeys, everything went fine. Like, people really got excited about this idea and wanted to contribute to helping the robot get from point A to point B. So Hitchbot traveled across Canada and traveled around Europe. And then in 2015, Hitchbot tried to do a cross-country trip across the United States and started in Boston. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But Hitchbot only made it to Philadelphia, where it was tragically attacked and decapitated. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Philly Man 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is the bench Hitchbot was killed on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Philly Man 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh really? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Philly Man 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You know the story of Hitchbot? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Philly Man 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, yeah, it made it around the world and it died.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Philly Man 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It didn’t make it around the world because it died in Philadelphia. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ellen Huet:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Maybe they wanted to reassert their power or dominance over a human-like object and feel secure in their place as humans. But yeah, I think the story of Hitchbot tells us a lot about the psychology of humans versus robots. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Right. And that Waymos may not be ready for Philly yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ellen Huet:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Seems possible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">OK, clearly, there’s something here about robots that makes us uncomfortable. People don’t always respond well to things that look a little too human or act kind of human, but aren’t quite human. So aside from making the cars cuter in hopes that people won’t attack them, is there anything else Waymo can do? When I scroll past one of these videos of someone spray painting one of the cars…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Video Clip 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Why are you attacking us? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Or blocking its way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Video Clip 4: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Get out of the way! Move! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Or, worst case scenario, harassing someone inside, which did happen in San Francisco. With these videos, I’ve always wondered, why can’t the car just back up and drive away? Any human driver would. We’ll get into that and some other very thorny questions after this break. As this technology progresses, what are the implications of robots making their own decisions in these very high-stakes situations? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But that is a new tab. “The ethics of self-driving cars.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To dig into this, I called up \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ryan Calo\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. He’s a legal scholar and a professor at the University of Washington School of Law. And his specialty? Robot law. So he had his own theory about what makes Waymo’s so attractive to vandalize. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ryan Calo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s the fact that they’re doing something transgressive where they’re, you know, they are of course vandalizing like an entity, an agent, but very much falls short of doing violence to a human being. Obviously these same people wouldn’t run up to a human being or a human cab driver and spray paint them. But the point of the matter is that, you know, there is this unease about these technologies, has to do with their novelty, has to do with their being too close to being these anthropomorphic agents. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">By anthropomorphic, Ryan means having human -like characteristics, even if it isn’t actually human. Yeah, I live in L.A., which has horrendous traffic, and so I watch a Waymo, try to make a U-turn, and get cut off at every possible opportunity, and I feel bad for it. What’s going on with that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ryan Calo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s hard not to empathize, right? The fact is, is that human beings are quite bad at categorizing robots as either things or people. And the more anthropomorphic a technology is, the harder that is. So what’s really interesting about Waymo is, apparently, it’s associated as much with being a car as it is with being an entity. I always thought that if the vandalism were occurring inside the car, right? So sometimes people vandalize the interior of a Waymo because they’re just there by themselves, seemingly, Right? And it’s one thing to put a camera there, but if you were to put like an anthropomorphic robot driver in the Waymo that looked back at you when you get in to say, “Hey, where can I take you?” And also could be, was visible. Like when you saw the Waymo trying to make a U -turn, you saw like a person in there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s struggling. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ryan Calo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Whatever it was, it’s struggling. Or when somebody went to vandalize this thing, cause it to crash, you know, cause it to shut down, like vandalize it. And there’s this android in there looking at you that looks like a person. I think the outcome would be different. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ryan’s theory is that because Waymo’s don’t resemble any living thing, it’s easier to justify being violent. And sure, passengers would probably be creeped out by a robot doll in the driver’s seat, but maybe people would be discouraged from attacking it because there’s another human-ish thing there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ryan Calo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s this concept called the uncanny valley. The deal is, it’s a valley, is that appreciation of the robot goes up and up and up and up and up and up and up, the more anthropomorphic it becomes, but then suddenly when it gets super close to actually like a human, it precipitously drops before coming back if it’s completely like a human, right? That’s the valley. Now, Waymo cars… They do not look like people, right? So they really are very far down on that curve. They’re more thrilling to vandalize than a mailbox. I just don’t see it happening with something that felt more like a person. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah. You have written about the legal quandaries of self-driving cars, and when they first started hitting the road about five or so years ago, people were mostly worried about passenger safety and crashes. And it seems like companies like Waymo were maybe not so prepared for, like, the irate protesters?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ryan Calo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you want to talk specifically about vandalism, this has messed up people working in AI and robotics for a long time, and so it shouldn’t really have surprised Waymo. I don’t know how one guards against it, right? Think about, Morgan, do you recall the time when Microsoft released that chatbot called Tay? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh my god. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ryan Calo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Microsoft trains this chatbot early. This is pre-OpenAI and so on, and they released this Twitter-based chatbot that’s supposed to learn how to interact. Within an hour, there are these people, trolls on the Internet, getting it to say all kinds of racist and terrible things. They end up having to take the chatbot down. When the company was asked about “Why did this happen?” They’re like, “Well, we just didn’t anticipate that folks would do this,” unfortunately. The truth is about technology, especially like new emerging technology, you just don’t know how it’s going to play out in society. In fact, this leads some law professors like myself, to conclude that technology is a particularly difficult thing to regulate, because you don’t know how it’s going to play out in advance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Back in 2018, Ryan wrote an essay in Slate about whether the law was ready for self-driving cars. And in it, he refutes a common critique of this technology that has to do with the old philosophical dilemma known as the trolley problem. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The trolley problem is this thought experiment about making decisions. You’ve got a train chugging along a track and it’s heading toward five people. But you, the decision maker, can flip a switch and direct the train to another track. Here’s the twist. There’s another single person stuck to that other track. So do you flip the switch? Save five people, but by making that decision, kill another? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is the kind of thought experiment people love to refer to when puzzling over the morality of autonomous vehicles and other forms of AI. It’s the assumption that self -driving cars will have to make the same kinds of moral decisions. But Ryan says the engineers of these vehicles, and we as a public, should worry less about these philosophical hypotheticals and more about the practical real-life situations that these cars might face. Programming a moral compass is still up for debate. But programming object recognition is way more realistic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ryan Calo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Just imagine that a driverless car is always gonna be better than a person at avoiding a stroller in a parking lot. Always better because it’s better sensors, better response times, whatever. And the driverless car is also always gonna be better than a human being in avoiding a shopping cart, okay? But what happens if a driverless car encounters a shopping cart and a stroller at the same time. Imagine that the car confused about what to do and not able to differentiate between these two objects ends up making the wrong decision. Well, the headline reads, “Robot car kills baby to save groceries.” That’s the end of driverless cars in America, if that happens. So the thing that’s fascinating, with driverless car liability is it actually really matters the fact that driverless cars are going to mess up in ways that humans wouldn’t, even if they mess up less overall. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, Ryan, as an expert in robot law, do you think driverless cars will have rights at some point, the way that humans do when they get into an accident? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ryan Calo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What I will say is that we are very far from a situation where AI or robots will be able to claim rights the way that people have them. And even though some doomsayers claim that AI is going to wake up and kill everybody, you know, like the first time I see a presentation where like PowerPoint works perfectly, that will be when I worry about, you know, AV before AI. Like we’re just very far away from getting to that level of sophistication. Yeah but one day maybe, and at that time we’re really going to have to have an overhaul or a sea change in the law because suddenly there will be an entity that has rights and responsibilities but is not like us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The robot takeover is not going to happen anytime soon, but the friction between humans and these non-human counterparts, that’s only going to increase as AI creeps more and more into our lives. I’m gonna be honest, I thought that ride I took with my friend Harry was actually really nice. It was a nice temperature in there, the AC was going, there were lo -fi beats playing at such a reasonable volume. It didn’t smell weird. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harri Weber:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s part of me that’s a little disappointed because, you know, I’m a little bit of a hater and so I want, I want to drive through cement. I want that to, I want to be the one who gets to, gets to like roll their eyes at these things that are sort of just. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I know! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harri Weber:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Inexplicably irksome. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Are we getting Waymo pilled? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harri Weber:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’re getting Waymo pilled. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh god. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harri Weber:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I just don’t, I don’t wanna give in. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Waymo Voice: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Pull the handle twice to exit. The first pull unlocks. The second opens the door. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay, we’re pulling up to the curb now. There’s an older man at the crosswalk kind of just glaring this Waymo down and I feel really weird. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harri Weber:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The deep shame, the shame! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I have to admit, it would have been great content if something wild did happen during my first Waymo ride. But like the majority of rides, it was pretty uneventful. It almost felt normal. And maybe that’s the real robot takeover. It’s the gradual, boring replacement of our everyday human interactions. For now, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Morgan Sung\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. Our producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our senior editor. Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts and helps edit the show. Sound Design by Maya Cueva. Original music by Chris Egusa with additional music by APM. Mixing and mastering by Brendan Willard. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad and Alana Walker. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Holly Kernan is our Chief Content Officer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Support for this program comes from Birong Hu and supporters of the KQED Studios Fund. Some members of the KQED Podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dust Silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. If you have feedback or a topic you think we should cover, hit us up at closealltabs@kqed.org. Follow us on Instagram at CloseAllTabsPod. And if you’re enjoying the show, give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you use. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Self-driving Waymo robotaxis have become a familiar sight in cities like San Francisco and Los Angeles, but not everyone is happy about that. These “ghost-like” autonomous vehicles have made a lot of people uneasy, some even going as far as to vandalize the cars.",
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"description": "Self-driving Waymo robotaxis have become a familiar sight in cities like San Francisco and Los Angeles, but not everyone is happy about that. These “ghost-like” autonomous vehicles have made a lot of people uneasy, some even going as far as to vandalize the cars. But what’s behind this hostility? In this episode, Morgan speaks with Bloomberg journalist Ellen Huet and robot law professor Ryan Calo to explore the rise of Waymo vandalism and its roots in our collective anxiety over artificial intelligence. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Self-driving Waymo robotaxis have become a familiar sight in cities like San Francisco and Los Angeles, but not everyone is happy about that. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">These “ghost-like” autonomous vehicles have made a lot of people uneasy, some even going as far as to vandalize the cars. But what’s behind this hostility? In this episode, Morgan speaks with \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bloomberg\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> journalist Ellen Huet and robot law professor Ryan Calo to explore the rise of Waymo vandalism and its roots in our collective anxiety over artificial intelligence. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC7694102813\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Guests:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.ellenhuet.com/\">Ellen Huet\u003c/a>, Features writer at Bloomberg News\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003ca href=\"https://ischool.uw.edu/people/faculty/profile/rcalo\">Ryan Calo\u003c/a>, Professor of Law at University of Washington\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Further reading:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2024-12-06/waymo-s-expansion-spurs-some-rage-against-the-self-driving-cars\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Waymo’s Expansion Provokes Anxieties of AI Takeover\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> – Ellen Huet, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bloomberg\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003ca href=\"https://qz.com/robotaxi-tesla-uber-lyft-waymo-mobileye-texas-1851759608\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The next big robotaxi push is almost here\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> — Harri Weber, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Quartz \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003ca href=\"https://slate.com/technology/2018/03/the-deadly-uber-self-driving-car-crash-is-just-the-beginning.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Courts Can Handle the Deadly Uber Self-Driving Car Crash. But that doesn’t mean the law is ready for autonomous vehicles.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> — Ryan Calo, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Slate\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/good-robot-bad-robot-jo-ann-oravec/1141932639\">Good Robot, Bad Robot: Dark and Creepy Sides of Robotics, Autonomous Vehicles, and AI\u003c/a> — Jo Ann Oravec, Professor at the University of Wisconsin\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harri Weber:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Do we look like influencers right now? Is this embarrassing to be walking up to a Waymo? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is me and my friend \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Harri Weber\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> booking my first ride in a Waymo. It’s a self -driving car service. Some people also call them robo-taxis. Wait, I think I have to unlock it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harri Weber:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh, there we go. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">For Morgan? No one’s going to respond. Waymo’s are, again, totally self -driving. There’s no human in the front seat. Hello from Waymo. As we get going, just give us one minute to cover a few… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harri Weber:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh god. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I invited Harry because she’s also a tech journalist and she covers the future of cars. She recently wrote about the expansion of robo -taxis for courts. And also, we both had a craving for deli sandwiches from this one spot with terrible street parking. So why not take a Waymo? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harri Weber:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s no one behind the wheel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Is there a real need for the steering wheel? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harri Weber:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Literally, I don’t see any purpose for it, but for whatever reason, there’s, you know, national laws require this steering wheel to still be there. It’s a little ghostly though, right? It’s nudging us around, it’s keeping us in the lane. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Waymo’s are something of a tourist attraction in California. My cousins always wanna take one whenever they come to visit me. But honestly, ever since Waymo’s launch a few months ago in Los Angeles, where Harri and I live, I’ve been pretty hesitant to take them. Part of it is, yeah, I don’t really trust a robot to drive me around, especially not through a very busy intersection in Koreatown during rush hour. But that’s where this car picked us up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harri Weber:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">These things aren’t perfect. Something could go wrong while we’re driving or while it’s moving us around. But Waymo’s claim based on its own data is that it is a lot safer than a human driver. I think that you’re probably more likely to find that they’re a nuisance than they are dangerous. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But despite their great track record when it comes to safety, I feel like Waymo mishaps are always going viral. Like a couple of weeks ago, there was a video of a Waymo in San Francisco, ignoring a public works crew and driving straight through a sinkhole. And then there was a video of a guy in Arizona who called a Waymo to take him to the airport, but got stuck in a parking lot. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Video Clip 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m in a Waymo car. This car is just going in circles. I got my seatbelt on, I can’t get out the car. Has this been hacked? What’s going on? I feel like I’m in the movies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Waymos make me feel a little uneasy, but it’s really other people’s reactions to Waymos that makes me nervous about being in one. Even getting in, in front of that coffee shop, did you feel self -conscious? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harri Weber:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, yeah, it felt a little uncool. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I felt so deeply uncool getting in. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harri Weber:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think something flipped when Google was first developing a driverless car. I think there was actually like a cool factor going, or maybe I was just that uncool that I thought it was cool. But tech criticism has evolved a lot since then. And so now we’re in this car and it does feel a little bit like we are maybe class traitors. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And it’s not just the uncool factor. Public reaction to Waymos has turned violent. Like this incident in San Francisco, where a bunch of guys started spray painting a Waymo while a group of women was inside. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Video Clip 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Why are you attacking us? Connecting to writer support. Call may be recorded. Oh my God. Oh my god! Holy shit! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There is also a recent viral video of people swarming a Waymo in Los Angeles. One of the guys in the video so gracefully leaps into the air and drop kicks the passenger door right off the hinges, while another person beats the Waymo’s windshield with a ripped off piece of its own front bumper. To be clear, it doesn’t seem like any living person has been hurt in any of these incidents, unless you count getting a little car sick. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Video Clip 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, I got a flight to catch. Why is this thing going in a circle? I’m getting dizzy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But to a lot of people, including myself, I’ll be honest, something about seeing robots do a human task just does not feel right. And clearly, it triggers some deep-seated instinct to attack. So what is behind this recent outburst of aggression against Waymos? Is it just that destroying them makes really good content that’s bound to go viral? Or is it our collective anxiety over the state of tech right now? This is Close All Tabs. I’m \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Morgan Sung\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. People are justifiably jaded against Silicon Valley and the idea of a robot takeover would make anyone nervous. But why take it out on Waymo? All right, we’re gonna kick this off like we usually do. A new tab, Waymo Vandalism. We’re gonna talk to \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ellen Huet\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. She covers technology and Silicon Valley and startup culture for Bloomberg, or as she puts it, all things at the intersection of tech and humans. And she wrote about how Waymo’s recent expansion provoked so -called AI anxiety. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ellen Huet:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">as long as these cars have been around in their various iterations, so probably over the last decade or so, people have reacted to them with suspicion and at times with violence. Like even back in 2018 when early Waymo vehicles were being tested in Arizona, people threw rocks at them, people like attacked the cars. Even if these cases are rare, it has been somewhat consistent that people react to robot cars at times with anger or violence or like attempting to kind of outsmart them. You know, there are early stories of people who figured out that you could confuse autonomous cars by putting a traffic cone on the hood of the car. Right, I’ve seen that. And I – Yeah, and like, there’s clearly some human impulse to try to almost like assert agency or control over this vehicle that, you know, in some existential sense is kind of a threat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I have to wonder how much product design plays a role in ensuring that people are more receptive to these cars. I mean, I’m thinking of, you know, that 2000s movie, Herbie Fully Loaded, how it’s like a cutesy little buggy. And if I saw that driving around, I wouldn’t want to, like, beat that up. But when I see, like, a Cybertruck, I’m like, oh, fight or flight, activated. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ellen Huet:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I guarantee lots of designers have spent a lot of time and energy thinking about this question. I remember, it must have been a decade ago, you know, I was a tech reporter, I was working at Forbes and I was invited to take a test drive in an early autonomous car. And what I remember most is that those early cars were designed to look so cute. Like it was like a little gumdrop shaped car and it was white and like its headlights We’re kind of that like. oval shape to make it look like, you know, like these cute little cartoon eyes. And yeah, I guarantee that designers and engineers spent a lot of time thinking about how to make this threatening-ish technology seem as cute and approachable as possible. But yeah, Waymo’s are obviously like kind of just like a normal-looking car. My guess is it’s not coincidence that they’re all white. maybe people associate that with, like, sort of angelic energy or something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But let’s talk about what’s at the root of this feeling that a lot of people have when confronted with a robot doing a human job. That is a new tab. Ready? Waymo and AI anxiety. Okay, so a lot of this anger against Waymo’s is due to the very real risk of job loss as robo-taxis begin replacing human drivers. But it’s also bigger than that. AI is moving into a lot of areas besides cars. In her story about this spike in Waymo vandalism, Ellen cited University of Wisconsin professor Jo Anne Oravec, who said that a lot of people are just not really comfortable with the realization that something else is intelligent. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ellen Huet:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think people sometimes direct their general anxiety about, like, job displacement from AI toward Waymos just because these are objects that exist in the physical world and that you can actually smash the windshield of a Waymo car in the way that you can’t quite attack ChatGPT, right? Like, I think in some sense they’re at a disadvantage by simply being, like, a physical object. And something that you are reminded of every time, you know, one drives by. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And the cars have also done things that are genuinely annoying. Like in San Francisco, there was this cluster of Waymo cars that had gotten trapped in a honking war with each other. So they were like up at the middle of the night, you know, it’s like 4:30 in the morning. And neighbors who were trying to sleep near wherever these cars are gathered were being woken up at night by the sound of all of these cars honking at each other. And like in the most nonsensical way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The term AI can mean a lot of different things. Autonomous vehicles like Waymo do use artificial intelligence. They use cameras to see, they’re trained to recognize objects and calculate the distance between them. But it’s pretty different from how a generative AI tool like ChatGPT works, or how other AI generators work to produce images, videos, and music. But to a lot of people, the anxiety is the same. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ellen Huet:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think what makes people have this reaction, regardless of what type of AI it is, is that these products are being designed to do actions and take on jobs and responsibilities that used to be solely the jurisdiction of humans, right? So it used to be like only people could see and drive and manipulate a car and now we can see that a human is not needed to do that. And it used to be that a human was needed to provide half of a conversation, you couldn’t have that, you know, without another person on the other side of the line. Now, that’s no longer true. So I think what we’re seeing is, even though the technology is different, in some cases and in some ways, the human reaction to it is the same. Because I think it’s provoking the same question of, well, where do I belong in this world where this thing that I used to do can be done by a non-human entity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s a Waymo ad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Waymo Advertisement: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Well, it’s finally happening. The robots, they’re coming. Maybe that’s a good thing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And like, Waymo’s clearly playing into people’s concerns about the robots, but putting like this positive spin on it. What do you think? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ellen Huet:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I mean, an ad like that makes me laugh because I just imagine, I wish I could be a fly on the wall in the marketing discussions that led to that copy because I’m sure they were like, guys, we have to address the fact that some people are scared of this, but let’s make it cheeky, let’s make it funny. There are researchers out there who study human-robot relations and some of the things that they explained to me were like these human-like. objects that can move with some intelligence in our world feel existentially unsettling to us because we don’t know where we fall in the pecking order anymore. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And don’t forget, we’ve been consuming so much sci-fi about how super advanced robots can totally disrupt our way of life. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>I, Robot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Robots don’t feel fear. They don’t feel anything. They don’t get hungry. They don’t sleep. I do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>M3gan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Megan, turn off. Are you sure? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>2001: A Space Odyssey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Open the pod bay doors, Hal. I’m sorry, Dave. I’m afraid I can’t do that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This pop culture fear of artificial intelligence and robots taking over has been around for a while, but it hasn’t been limited to the screen. Physical attacks on robots have been happening for over a decade. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ellen Huet:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A classic example is the story of Hitchbot. And the story of Hitchbot starts back in 2013 when a group of researchers decided they wanted to try to answer the question, can robots trust humans? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hitchbot will be depending on the kindness and the curiosity of strangers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So Hitchbot was this little humanoid robot that couldn’t really do much, but it was on a mission to hitchhike across Canada. It had a stocky, cylindrical body and goofy arms and legs made out of pool noodles. Its head had an LED panel with a little smiley face. Hitchbot couldn’t move on its own. It could only recognize human speech and engage in basic conversations, mostly to ask bystanders for help. It also had a GPS and took pictures of its surroundings every 20 minutes so that researchers could keep tabs on it. I mean, it was pretty adorable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ellen Huet:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And on its first few journeys, everything went fine. Like, people really got excited about this idea and wanted to contribute to helping the robot get from point A to point B. So Hitchbot traveled across Canada and traveled around Europe. And then in 2015, Hitchbot tried to do a cross-country trip across the United States and started in Boston. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But Hitchbot only made it to Philadelphia, where it was tragically attacked and decapitated. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Philly Man 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is the bench Hitchbot was killed on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Philly Man 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh really? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Philly Man 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You know the story of Hitchbot? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Philly Man 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, yeah, it made it around the world and it died.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Philly Man 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It didn’t make it around the world because it died in Philadelphia. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ellen Huet:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Maybe they wanted to reassert their power or dominance over a human-like object and feel secure in their place as humans. But yeah, I think the story of Hitchbot tells us a lot about the psychology of humans versus robots. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Right. And that Waymos may not be ready for Philly yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ellen Huet:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Seems possible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">OK, clearly, there’s something here about robots that makes us uncomfortable. People don’t always respond well to things that look a little too human or act kind of human, but aren’t quite human. So aside from making the cars cuter in hopes that people won’t attack them, is there anything else Waymo can do? When I scroll past one of these videos of someone spray painting one of the cars…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Video Clip 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Why are you attacking us? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Or blocking its way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Video Clip 4: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Get out of the way! Move! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Or, worst case scenario, harassing someone inside, which did happen in San Francisco. With these videos, I’ve always wondered, why can’t the car just back up and drive away? Any human driver would. We’ll get into that and some other very thorny questions after this break. As this technology progresses, what are the implications of robots making their own decisions in these very high-stakes situations? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But that is a new tab. “The ethics of self-driving cars.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To dig into this, I called up \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ryan Calo\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. He’s a legal scholar and a professor at the University of Washington School of Law. And his specialty? Robot law. So he had his own theory about what makes Waymo’s so attractive to vandalize. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ryan Calo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s the fact that they’re doing something transgressive where they’re, you know, they are of course vandalizing like an entity, an agent, but very much falls short of doing violence to a human being. Obviously these same people wouldn’t run up to a human being or a human cab driver and spray paint them. But the point of the matter is that, you know, there is this unease about these technologies, has to do with their novelty, has to do with their being too close to being these anthropomorphic agents. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">By anthropomorphic, Ryan means having human -like characteristics, even if it isn’t actually human. Yeah, I live in L.A., which has horrendous traffic, and so I watch a Waymo, try to make a U-turn, and get cut off at every possible opportunity, and I feel bad for it. What’s going on with that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ryan Calo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s hard not to empathize, right? The fact is, is that human beings are quite bad at categorizing robots as either things or people. And the more anthropomorphic a technology is, the harder that is. So what’s really interesting about Waymo is, apparently, it’s associated as much with being a car as it is with being an entity. I always thought that if the vandalism were occurring inside the car, right? So sometimes people vandalize the interior of a Waymo because they’re just there by themselves, seemingly, Right? And it’s one thing to put a camera there, but if you were to put like an anthropomorphic robot driver in the Waymo that looked back at you when you get in to say, “Hey, where can I take you?” And also could be, was visible. Like when you saw the Waymo trying to make a U -turn, you saw like a person in there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s struggling. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ryan Calo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Whatever it was, it’s struggling. Or when somebody went to vandalize this thing, cause it to crash, you know, cause it to shut down, like vandalize it. And there’s this android in there looking at you that looks like a person. I think the outcome would be different. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ryan’s theory is that because Waymo’s don’t resemble any living thing, it’s easier to justify being violent. And sure, passengers would probably be creeped out by a robot doll in the driver’s seat, but maybe people would be discouraged from attacking it because there’s another human-ish thing there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ryan Calo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s this concept called the uncanny valley. The deal is, it’s a valley, is that appreciation of the robot goes up and up and up and up and up and up and up, the more anthropomorphic it becomes, but then suddenly when it gets super close to actually like a human, it precipitously drops before coming back if it’s completely like a human, right? That’s the valley. Now, Waymo cars… They do not look like people, right? So they really are very far down on that curve. They’re more thrilling to vandalize than a mailbox. I just don’t see it happening with something that felt more like a person. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah. You have written about the legal quandaries of self-driving cars, and when they first started hitting the road about five or so years ago, people were mostly worried about passenger safety and crashes. And it seems like companies like Waymo were maybe not so prepared for, like, the irate protesters?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ryan Calo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you want to talk specifically about vandalism, this has messed up people working in AI and robotics for a long time, and so it shouldn’t really have surprised Waymo. I don’t know how one guards against it, right? Think about, Morgan, do you recall the time when Microsoft released that chatbot called Tay? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh my god. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ryan Calo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Microsoft trains this chatbot early. This is pre-OpenAI and so on, and they released this Twitter-based chatbot that’s supposed to learn how to interact. Within an hour, there are these people, trolls on the Internet, getting it to say all kinds of racist and terrible things. They end up having to take the chatbot down. When the company was asked about “Why did this happen?” They’re like, “Well, we just didn’t anticipate that folks would do this,” unfortunately. The truth is about technology, especially like new emerging technology, you just don’t know how it’s going to play out in society. In fact, this leads some law professors like myself, to conclude that technology is a particularly difficult thing to regulate, because you don’t know how it’s going to play out in advance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Back in 2018, Ryan wrote an essay in Slate about whether the law was ready for self-driving cars. And in it, he refutes a common critique of this technology that has to do with the old philosophical dilemma known as the trolley problem. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The trolley problem is this thought experiment about making decisions. You’ve got a train chugging along a track and it’s heading toward five people. But you, the decision maker, can flip a switch and direct the train to another track. Here’s the twist. There’s another single person stuck to that other track. So do you flip the switch? Save five people, but by making that decision, kill another? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is the kind of thought experiment people love to refer to when puzzling over the morality of autonomous vehicles and other forms of AI. It’s the assumption that self -driving cars will have to make the same kinds of moral decisions. But Ryan says the engineers of these vehicles, and we as a public, should worry less about these philosophical hypotheticals and more about the practical real-life situations that these cars might face. Programming a moral compass is still up for debate. But programming object recognition is way more realistic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ryan Calo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Just imagine that a driverless car is always gonna be better than a person at avoiding a stroller in a parking lot. Always better because it’s better sensors, better response times, whatever. And the driverless car is also always gonna be better than a human being in avoiding a shopping cart, okay? But what happens if a driverless car encounters a shopping cart and a stroller at the same time. Imagine that the car confused about what to do and not able to differentiate between these two objects ends up making the wrong decision. Well, the headline reads, “Robot car kills baby to save groceries.” That’s the end of driverless cars in America, if that happens. So the thing that’s fascinating, with driverless car liability is it actually really matters the fact that driverless cars are going to mess up in ways that humans wouldn’t, even if they mess up less overall. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, Ryan, as an expert in robot law, do you think driverless cars will have rights at some point, the way that humans do when they get into an accident? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ryan Calo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What I will say is that we are very far from a situation where AI or robots will be able to claim rights the way that people have them. And even though some doomsayers claim that AI is going to wake up and kill everybody, you know, like the first time I see a presentation where like PowerPoint works perfectly, that will be when I worry about, you know, AV before AI. Like we’re just very far away from getting to that level of sophistication. Yeah but one day maybe, and at that time we’re really going to have to have an overhaul or a sea change in the law because suddenly there will be an entity that has rights and responsibilities but is not like us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The robot takeover is not going to happen anytime soon, but the friction between humans and these non-human counterparts, that’s only going to increase as AI creeps more and more into our lives. I’m gonna be honest, I thought that ride I took with my friend Harry was actually really nice. It was a nice temperature in there, the AC was going, there were lo -fi beats playing at such a reasonable volume. It didn’t smell weird. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harri Weber:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s part of me that’s a little disappointed because, you know, I’m a little bit of a hater and so I want, I want to drive through cement. I want that to, I want to be the one who gets to, gets to like roll their eyes at these things that are sort of just. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I know! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harri Weber:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Inexplicably irksome. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Are we getting Waymo pilled? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harri Weber:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’re getting Waymo pilled. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh god. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harri Weber:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I just don’t, I don’t wanna give in. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Waymo Voice: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Pull the handle twice to exit. The first pull unlocks. The second opens the door. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay, we’re pulling up to the curb now. There’s an older man at the crosswalk kind of just glaring this Waymo down and I feel really weird. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harri Weber:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The deep shame, the shame! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I have to admit, it would have been great content if something wild did happen during my first Waymo ride. But like the majority of rides, it was pretty uneventful. It almost felt normal. And maybe that’s the real robot takeover. It’s the gradual, boring replacement of our everyday human interactions. For now, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Morgan Sung\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. Our producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our senior editor. Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts and helps edit the show. Sound Design by Maya Cueva. Original music by Chris Egusa with additional music by APM. Mixing and mastering by Brendan Willard. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad and Alana Walker. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Holly Kernan is our Chief Content Officer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Support for this program comes from Birong Hu and supporters of the KQED Studios Fund. Some members of the KQED Podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dust Silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. If you have feedback or a topic you think we should cover, hit us up at closealltabs@kqed.org. Follow us on Instagram at CloseAllTabsPod. And if you’re enjoying the show, give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you use. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The world of family vlogging is under scrutiny after the release of two new documentaries: HBO’s “An Update on Our Family” and Hulu’s “Devil in the Family: The Fall of Ruby Franke.” The attention around Myka Stauffer and Ruby Franke has brought up questions about the dark side of family channels, and whether child influencers should have more say in their internet presence. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Morgan takes us through the family channel industry and the lack of legal protections for children online. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll hear from a former “mommy blogger kid” who’s fighting for the next generation of internet child stars, as well as Fortesa Latifi, a journalist who covers the industry. Together we’ll explore how posting and consuming this kind of content impacts the children growing up on our screens. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC7253313109\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Caymi Barrett:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think when I first started to notice that like, hey, this is kind of really weird and like we need to kind of tone it down is when I was hit by a drunk driver. Like immediately my mom pulled out her camera. The first responders were there. I was being strapped down to a stretcher because I had like a spinal injury and I was really scared. I was vomiting and my mom was just like in the back of the ambulance like taking pictures and taking little clips of everything going on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Caymi Barrett is 26 now, and the internet has always been part of her life. In the 2000s, her mom was a mommy blogger. And throughout her childhood, Caymi’s most vulnerable moments were posted online to thousands of strangers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Caymi Barrett:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s something I still just very vividly remember. I never know how to explain it other than just kind of like an out -of -body experience. I wanted my mom there to comfort me. I wanted my mom to hold my hand. I was experiencing so much fear and pain in silence because I was just in shock. I had a concussion and meanwhile, my mom was just taking pictures and like writing up a post about literally what had just happened. So it was probably like a five minute ambulance drive. From the time of the accident to the moment we got to the hospital, there was already one post up. And I remember a nurse came up to me and she asked me if I was in pain. And I just said, “No, I want my mom.” But she was at the foot of the bed making a Facebook post, like another update. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The mommy blogger scene of the early aughts laid the groundwork for family vlogging today. That’s vlogging with a V, as in like video blog. It’s an entire genre of content on YouTube and TikTok and Instagram. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Family Vlogger 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello everyone and welcome back to my channel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Family Vlogger 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey babies! Welcome back! My name is Bronte, for those of you who are new here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Family Vlogger 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Good morning. Let’s cook breakfast for 10, 10 year olds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Family vlogs and momfluencers make up a multi -billion dollar industry. Like the mommy blogs that came before them, family channels are often an outlet for parents to share advice and open up about the very difficult realities of raising tiny humans. But when your entire livelihood revolves around making content about your kids, I’ll Caymi explain. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Caymi Barrett:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s caused a lot of paranoia, a lot of anxiety. There’s a lot of things that people don’t necessarily think about. And throughout the years, it’s been really hard to kind of navigate life with a non -consensual digital footprint. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Caymi was 15 then, and her mom had crossed the line plenty of times before. But this particular incident with a drunk driver changed everything for her. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Caymi Barrett:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After that, I just felt very exposed and I started to isolate myself a lot. So I had reconstructive surgery and I had a spinal injury and so I was prescribed some heavy narcotic pain medication and that was kind of how I just got through the rest of my teen years by isolating and unfortunately becoming addicted to substances because I just wanted to numb everything that was happening in my real life and then I had also no control of what was being posted on social media. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Caymi checked herself into rehab when she turned 18. Since then, she’s been working on rebuilding her relationship with her mom and also with the internet. That means protecting the kids who are going through what she went through. Caymi started speaking out about her own experience a few years ago on TikTok to raise awareness and advocate for the right to privacy for child influencers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Caymi Barrett:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I started seeing people talking about how these family channels don’t affect kids and it’s fine because they get all these free things, I just was like, “Hey, that’s actually really not the case. Like, it’s actually really hard to grow up with all of these things attached to your name.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Multiple states are trying to establish protections for kids who appear in their parents’ content. Caymi actually testified in some of those hearings. A few states have already passed laws about child influencers. On paper, the fact that there’s any legal protection for kids online is huge. But are these laws enforceable? And what gaps do they leave when it comes to regulating this massive content industry? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan Sung:\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To understand the latest attempts to regulate it, we need to get into where this industry even started. New tab. How did family vlogging get so big? And to walk us through this issue, we’re calling up \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fortesa Latifi\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. She’s been reporting on this world of family channels for years and is working on a book about child influencers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the first big family vlogging families really took off in the aughts. So I wanna say around like between 2006 to like 2010, that was when they first really started making a ton of money from YouTube. And I think part of the reason that the families that got in then were so successful is because it was not over-saturated yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we had the early aughts of like, these are like the beginning of family vloggers and then the mid 2010s to late 2010s, that was kind of what I have seen as the golden age of family vlogging. What was that age like? What kind of content were they making? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Back in the day on YouTube, it was very much just like, “Come along with me as I get my six kids ready for school,” or like “This is the day in the life of a mom with like five kids.” And you’ll notice that’s changed over the years. Like on YouTube, things had to ratchet up a lot. It was a lot of challenges. It was a lot of kind of trying to like outdo each other. One video that sticks in mind for me is this one family, the Family Fun Pack. I think they have like seven or eight kids and they did like a “We’re gonna only eat a specific color food.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Family Fun Pack: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I have a challenge planned for the kids today. They may or may not like it, but I’m about to go tell them what it is right now. They have no idea. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So like this kid only could eat green food for a day, this kid could only eat purple food for a day. And it was just like these kind of like silly challenges. And then once there became more people in the space, you had to do more to get noticed. So things started getting more personal and people would post videos of their sick kids and like come along with me to the emergency room for little Joey and there’s videos of him crying and bleeding or whatever. And then there’s videos of young women talking about getting their menstrual cycles for the first time or getting the sex talk. Like I cannot tell you in the research of my book how many sex talk videos I stumbled upon from family bloggers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Family Vlogger 4: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t want them to learn about sex and how we get pregnant from just anybody. I don’t want them to learn from somebody at school. And then they also get kind of a memento to remind them as they get older about this special time when they learned about how we have babies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I was just like, “Whoa, this is a little wild.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. It seems like to get engagement, it’s almost incentivized to be increasingly intimate and personal. And I don’t, I mean, exploitative? Is that the right word? You know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, I think a lot of people consider that the exact right word. In the research for my book, I talked to a bunch of family vloggers and I asked them what is the content that does the best and several of them told me if a kid is hurt or sick or upset, that does really well. And so, you know, that kind of feeds into its own little monster there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It seems like this pushback against family vloggers, this like conversation about protecting child influencers is relatively new. Like it’s only been in the last couple of years that people are actually questioning the ethics of this industry. It’s probably because there are particularly egregious cases of child abuse that came out of this industry. Can we talk about that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So there’s two cases that really stick out to me. And one is, I’m sure you’re familiar with the Stauffer case. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Myka Stauffer was a YouTuber who built a following with videos about cleaning tips, parenting, and then trying to get pregnant after a miscarriage. Back in 2016, Micah and her husband announced that they were in the process of adopting a disabled baby boy from China. They were already popular, but their views skyrocketed with the adoption videos. They made a lot of monetized content about their adopted son and his medical needs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Myka Stauffer: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If anything, my child is not returnable. And we, without a doubt in our minds, we knew, no matter what state he came to us, that we would love him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then, followers noticed that he stopped appearing in videos. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then she made this like tearful apology video basically saying that he was living with another family and that he wasn’t in their family anymore. And it kind of went viral as like this YouTube mom rehomed her adoptive son after making money off of him and she was still after he wasn’t living there still had videos on YouTube that were monetized about him. And so there was kind of this outcry. And so that was the first thing that I think really like planted the seed for people. And then the eight passengers and Ruby Franke, I don’t even wanna call it a scandal because it’s child abuse, it’s not a scandal, but that entire case. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And what happened there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so Ruby Franke, her and her husband, Kevin, had this YouTube channel called 8 Passengers, and it was called 8 Passengers because they had six kids and so the eight of them. And they had over two million subscribers at their height. I kind of consider them to be family vlogging royalty at the time. They kind of faced this sort of cancelation where Ruby had posted a video where her son said that he hadn’t slept on a bed in seven months as punishment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She explained her teenage son Chad had been sleeping on a bean bag for months. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chad Franke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was sleeping on a beanbag since October and they gave me my room back like two weeks ago. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And people were like, “Wait, wait, wait, what?” Like, everyone was like, thought that Ruby had been kind of like a strict mom, but then this kind of like pushed it over the edge. And so people started digging into like, what is going on with this family? And then a couple of years later, Ruby was arrested for aggravated child abuse. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A once popular parenting YouTuber, Ruby Franke, will spend up to 60 years in prison. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She pleaded guilty to numerous charges, including things like holding a child’s head underwater, putting her hand over a child’s mouth and nose so they couldn’t breathe, kicking a child while she was wearing boots. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so that was kind of the second thing. You had like Myka Stauffer and then you had Ruby Franke where people were like, “There is a darkness behind the perfect veneer of the YouTube vlogging family.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Parents are supposed to be responsible for protecting their children, but clearly that isn’t always happening with family vloggers in this very lucrative industry. So is there anything out there to protect these kids? I think that’s a new tab, Child Influencer Protections. So last year, California Governor Gavin Newsom actually signed two pieces of legislation that have to do with child influencers. The first expands something called the Coogan Law.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a 1939 law named after a silent film star named Jackie Coogan, who worked his entire childhood. And basically, by the time he was an adult, there was no money left for him. So now, California requires that 15 % of whatever a child performer earns is saved in a trust for when that child turns 18. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But until last year, the Coogan Law only applied to child actors, as in kids who are working on actual film or television sets. This expansion extends the law to child content creators. That includes vloggers, influencers, streamers, podcasters. Whenever a kid, or their family, is paid directly to post something online. It’s pretty straightforward. But California’s other law is unclear. Here’s Fortesa again to explain. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So SB 764 dictates that content creators who feature minor children in at least 30% of their content must set aside a proportionate percentage of the earnings from that content to be held in a trust account until the child is 18. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now you may be wondering what does proportionate percentage even mean? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I’ve reached out to lawyers to ask and experts what a proportionate percentage like what that really means in practice and I haven’t been able to get like a good solid answer. Like the worry here is that you would need like a forensic accountant who has a specialization in social media to even know the right amount of money that should have been saved for you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like I can’t imagine going back through maybe like a decade of like YouTube and TikTok videos and trying to calculate like, “How much was I in this video? 29%. Okay, and they made $6 ,000 off it.” It’s very complicated, but I don’t know that there’s a better way. I’m not saying I have a better idea. And I think that kind of speaks to the convoluted nature of both the industry and attempts to regulate the industry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It doesn’t even touch on other protections for traditional child actors, like making sure they’re in school or that they’re allowed to take breaks. How do you even enforce something like that though? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t know. I think it’s so difficult because this work is happening largely in the home, right? Being a family vlogger, inherently your work is in your home and it is with your children and that’s really difficult. We know how this country feels about the government stepping in between parents and children. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. So, how do these new laws in California compare to similar laws in other states? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Illinois was first, Minnesota was second, and California was third. Illinois’s law is pretty similar to California’s law. Minnesota’s takes it a step further, and they have this clause that’s basically considered the right to be deleted. And so it states that upon reaching the age of 18, the former child influencer can request the deletion of content. I do think that that was Minnesota’s attempt to address the privacy concerns. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it’s also like, I don’t know, I sound like a boomer when I say this, but I feel like once something is on the internet, it really is kind of on the internet forever, especially like with these famous kids. Like you see it with the eight passengers stuff, right? Like after Ruby was arrested for child abuse, their channel was taken off of YouTube. And I’ve asked family members and they didn’t delete it. So it seems that YouTube took it offline in the wake of this arrest. But you can still find clips everywhere. Like if you look up Ruby Frankie on TikTok, you can watch entire vlogs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, this content thrives on platforms like YouTube and Instagram and TikTok, but do you see these platforms taking any action to protect these kids? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, what’s in it for them, you know? Like, I think these are companies that make a lot of money off of content featuring influencer kids. Family vlogging is a multi -billion dollar industry. I don’t think that there’s any reason for them to step in when it is so lucrative for them. Like that’s not their job to think about the child. That’s the parents’ job. The platform’s job is to make money which they’re doing off of this content. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So social media platforms have no incentive to restrict family vlogging and the new laws aren’t foolproof, not to mention a mess to enforce. Like Fortesa mentioned, it’s on the parents to have their kids’ best interests at heart. Well, when it comes to influencers who make a living off of sharing almost every aspect of their lives, what does that even look like? The answer, after this break. Now back to the story. When it comes to influencers sharing their kids’ lives online, is the tide changing at all? Okay, new tab. Influencers taking kids offline. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve noticed this in the last couple of years where huge influencers who built their considerable platforms off of showing their kids and sharing their life with their kids have reversed course. The biggest person that comes to mind for me is Maia Knight. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. She was a single mom who had twins. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. Yeah. She would be holding both the babies and making bottles at the same time. It was just these very real videos. She got super famous. Got like 8 million followers on TikTok. And after a year or two, she decided, “I’m going to take my daughters off of TikTok and Instagram and everything.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maia Knight: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re toddlers now and I have decided to not show them anymore. I’m making a choice for my daughters to protect them. Am I going to lose followers? Yes I’m going to. Am I going to lose 8 million followers? I hope not. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And there was a huge amount of backlash to that. And it was fascinating because I think there were several camps. Some people were like, “How dare you? We love them. We’re their TikTok aunties. You can’t do this,” which like, parasocial. Yeah. And I’m sure I’ve talked to other huge creators who have taken their kids offline and they told me that reactions like that totally solidify their choice and they’re like, this is why I’m doing it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there was another camp who were like, “Maya has been exploiting her kids and now that she has this huge like brand, she’s taking them off, but it’s too late.” Which like, I don’t really understand as a concept. It’s like, do you want that to happen or do you not? I think there’s this like purity test kind of thing. Like there’s this idea. among detractors that if you ever show your kid online at all, you are evil and immoral. And I totally do not believe that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there are people who have become moms in their influencing careers and have never shown their kids at all. And that’s really fascinating to me as a reporter, because a few years ago there was never a question about whether an influencer would show their kid online or not. Like if you were having a baby, like that baby was gonna be in a ton of content. But now when a public facing influencer is pregnant, there is the question of like, “Which camp kind of are they gonna go into?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right, I remember when family vloggers would announce that they were pregnant again, they would start an Instagram account for the fetus, post ultrasounds, they were posting the kid before they were even born. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, yeah, and narrating like the fetus’s thoughts and like \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, like I can’t wait to meet you all. It’s like that is a six-month-old fetus. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, no, that kind of stuff has definitely fallen out of favor. Although, I don’t want to make it seem as though the majority of influencers aren’t showing their kids because they are, definitely. But there is this growing contingent where they’re not. And this is even happening among regular people. It’s not only influencers, it’s regular people who have a couple hundred followers who are like, I don’t really want to put my kid on Instagram or on TikTok. It’s interesting because I’ll interview these parents and I’m like, why did you not want to put your kid online or why did you not want to announce your pregnancy? And they have like specific reasons like online footprint which again, we were not talking about a few years ago or like worries about AI, but there’s also just this like sense of like uneasiness and just being like, “Why would I?” Which is fascinating to me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, you just had a baby, so congratulations, by the way, and you also fell into that camp of like, not announcing your pregnancy, you kind of just hard launched with like a baby. How did you come to that decision to never post your child’s face online? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. You know, I thought about this a lot. And obviously I was doing like a lot of this reporting on influencer kids and like what their lives are like. And not that I’m an influencer in any way, but like I said, kind of the way that influencers live their lives trickles down to the rest of us, like plebeians. And so we were all kind of just becoming more aware of like privacy. And when I was pregnant, I… just had this gut feeling that I just didn’t want anyone who didn’t know me in real life to know. And even now, I feel so strongly about it that I don’t want her to be on the internet and that I don’t want information or photos of her to be on the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean. There’s also a lot of discussion about whether or not you can talk about your kids online or write about parenting without exposing your kid. I mean, what are your thoughts on this? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I am very much trying to figure this out because I have benefited so much from the writing and the content of other moms specifically and like being able to watch really personal moments in their lives and have them talk about postpartum depression or their struggles with sleep training or whatever it is and like I have learned things about their kids. Like, I have benefited so much and I’m sure they benefited from sharing it. And I don’t think that we need to go back to a time when moms were not allowed to talk about what motherhood and parenthood is like. And I’m saying moms, because most parenthood content online is by moms. I’ve heard this from other creators too, is that they try to think, what will my kid think about this in five years, in 10 years, in 15 years? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’ve also talked to kids of those first mommy bloggers and – I’m not saying this is the experience of every kid of a mom blogger, but the ones that I’ve talked to are like, “It is incredible to read how my mom felt when she was raising me and what she thought.” And they have these like incredible records, you know? So I also, I don’t want to take it too far on one side either. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you speak to the way that this industry and just overarching culture is changing the relationships between kids and parents? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s just so complicated and obviously parents have to make choices for their kids that the kids might not agree with later. But I think how many choices has really just been exacerbated by the internet and by the way it’s able to change people’s lives. And that’s the thing is I hear from a lot of parents who are like, “My kid is begging me to start a YouTube channel, like my kid wants to be a YouTuber and influencer.” And like yeah, that I understand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And like, from the kids point of view, like, why wouldn’t they want to, you know? But I think the parent has to make the best decision that they can at the time. And I think sometimes those decisions change, like you see with parents changing their minds later and taking their kids offline. And I think as a culture, just like generally, we need to be more accepting of people like changing their minds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is one of those internet rabbit holes that ultimately just doesn’t have a single answer at the end. These laws are a start, but enacting real change also involves a larger cultural shift in the way that we consume and post content. Remember Caymi? She’s the former mommy blogger kid who grew up and became an advocate for child influencers. She thinks kids should be allowed to exist without a camera in their face. And if you’re an influencer kid, here’s her advice to you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Caymi Barrett:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you get older, you’re gonna meet so many people who are so different from, your parents are so different from the people who have viewed you your entire childhood, and they’re going to see you for who you are instead of seeing you for what your parents posted. I think it’s really important to literally be a kid, like, by yourself, at school, even if you have a friend that you trust to talk to about this. It’s so hard carrying all of it on your shoulders alone, but you don’t have to. And I wish that I had known that as a kid. Yeah, we’re fighting for y’all. We’re not gonna stop. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For now, let’s close these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan Sung\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Our Producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts and helps edit the show. Sound design by Maya Cueva and original music by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. Mixing and mastering by Brendan Willard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad and Alana Walker. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Holly Kernan is our Chief Content Officer. Support for this program comes from Birong Hu and supporters of the KQED Studios Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustilver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you have any feedback or a topic you think we should cover, hit us up at CloseAllTabs@KQED.org. Follow us on Instagram at CloseAllTabsPod. And if you’re enjoying the show, give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you use. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "The world of family vlogging is under scrutiny after the release of two new documentaries: HBO’s “An Update on Our Family” and Hulu’s “Devil in the Family: The Fall of Ruby Franke.” The attention around Myka Stauffer and Ruby Franke has brought up questions about the dark side of family channels, and whether child influencers should have more say in their internet presence. In this episode, Morgan takes us through the family channel industry and the lack of legal protections for children online. We’ll hear from a former “mommy blogger kid” who’s fighting for the next generation of internet child stars, as well as an expert who covers the industry. Together we’ll explore how posting and consuming this kind of content impacts the children growing up on our screens. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Caymi Barrett:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think when I first started to notice that like, hey, this is kind of really weird and like we need to kind of tone it down is when I was hit by a drunk driver. Like immediately my mom pulled out her camera. The first responders were there. I was being strapped down to a stretcher because I had like a spinal injury and I was really scared. I was vomiting and my mom was just like in the back of the ambulance like taking pictures and taking little clips of everything going on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Caymi Barrett is 26 now, and the internet has always been part of her life. In the 2000s, her mom was a mommy blogger. And throughout her childhood, Caymi’s most vulnerable moments were posted online to thousands of strangers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Caymi Barrett:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s something I still just very vividly remember. I never know how to explain it other than just kind of like an out -of -body experience. I wanted my mom there to comfort me. I wanted my mom to hold my hand. I was experiencing so much fear and pain in silence because I was just in shock. I had a concussion and meanwhile, my mom was just taking pictures and like writing up a post about literally what had just happened. So it was probably like a five minute ambulance drive. From the time of the accident to the moment we got to the hospital, there was already one post up. And I remember a nurse came up to me and she asked me if I was in pain. And I just said, “No, I want my mom.” But she was at the foot of the bed making a Facebook post, like another update. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The mommy blogger scene of the early aughts laid the groundwork for family vlogging today. That’s vlogging with a V, as in like video blog. It’s an entire genre of content on YouTube and TikTok and Instagram. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Family Vlogger 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello everyone and welcome back to my channel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Family Vlogger 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey babies! Welcome back! My name is Bronte, for those of you who are new here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Family Vlogger 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Good morning. Let’s cook breakfast for 10, 10 year olds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Family vlogs and momfluencers make up a multi -billion dollar industry. Like the mommy blogs that came before them, family channels are often an outlet for parents to share advice and open up about the very difficult realities of raising tiny humans. But when your entire livelihood revolves around making content about your kids, I’ll Caymi explain. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Caymi Barrett:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s caused a lot of paranoia, a lot of anxiety. There’s a lot of things that people don’t necessarily think about. And throughout the years, it’s been really hard to kind of navigate life with a non -consensual digital footprint. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Caymi was 15 then, and her mom had crossed the line plenty of times before. But this particular incident with a drunk driver changed everything for her. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Caymi Barrett:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After that, I just felt very exposed and I started to isolate myself a lot. So I had reconstructive surgery and I had a spinal injury and so I was prescribed some heavy narcotic pain medication and that was kind of how I just got through the rest of my teen years by isolating and unfortunately becoming addicted to substances because I just wanted to numb everything that was happening in my real life and then I had also no control of what was being posted on social media. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Caymi checked herself into rehab when she turned 18. Since then, she’s been working on rebuilding her relationship with her mom and also with the internet. That means protecting the kids who are going through what she went through. Caymi started speaking out about her own experience a few years ago on TikTok to raise awareness and advocate for the right to privacy for child influencers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Caymi Barrett:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I started seeing people talking about how these family channels don’t affect kids and it’s fine because they get all these free things, I just was like, “Hey, that’s actually really not the case. Like, it’s actually really hard to grow up with all of these things attached to your name.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Multiple states are trying to establish protections for kids who appear in their parents’ content. Caymi actually testified in some of those hearings. A few states have already passed laws about child influencers. On paper, the fact that there’s any legal protection for kids online is huge. But are these laws enforceable? And what gaps do they leave when it comes to regulating this massive content industry? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan Sung:\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To understand the latest attempts to regulate it, we need to get into where this industry even started. New tab. How did family vlogging get so big? And to walk us through this issue, we’re calling up \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fortesa Latifi\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. She’s been reporting on this world of family channels for years and is working on a book about child influencers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the first big family vlogging families really took off in the aughts. So I wanna say around like between 2006 to like 2010, that was when they first really started making a ton of money from YouTube. And I think part of the reason that the families that got in then were so successful is because it was not over-saturated yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we had the early aughts of like, these are like the beginning of family vloggers and then the mid 2010s to late 2010s, that was kind of what I have seen as the golden age of family vlogging. What was that age like? What kind of content were they making? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Back in the day on YouTube, it was very much just like, “Come along with me as I get my six kids ready for school,” or like “This is the day in the life of a mom with like five kids.” And you’ll notice that’s changed over the years. Like on YouTube, things had to ratchet up a lot. It was a lot of challenges. It was a lot of kind of trying to like outdo each other. One video that sticks in mind for me is this one family, the Family Fun Pack. I think they have like seven or eight kids and they did like a “We’re gonna only eat a specific color food.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Family Fun Pack: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I have a challenge planned for the kids today. They may or may not like it, but I’m about to go tell them what it is right now. They have no idea. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So like this kid only could eat green food for a day, this kid could only eat purple food for a day. And it was just like these kind of like silly challenges. And then once there became more people in the space, you had to do more to get noticed. So things started getting more personal and people would post videos of their sick kids and like come along with me to the emergency room for little Joey and there’s videos of him crying and bleeding or whatever. And then there’s videos of young women talking about getting their menstrual cycles for the first time or getting the sex talk. Like I cannot tell you in the research of my book how many sex talk videos I stumbled upon from family bloggers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Family Vlogger 4: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t want them to learn about sex and how we get pregnant from just anybody. I don’t want them to learn from somebody at school. And then they also get kind of a memento to remind them as they get older about this special time when they learned about how we have babies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I was just like, “Whoa, this is a little wild.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. It seems like to get engagement, it’s almost incentivized to be increasingly intimate and personal. And I don’t, I mean, exploitative? Is that the right word? You know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, I think a lot of people consider that the exact right word. In the research for my book, I talked to a bunch of family vloggers and I asked them what is the content that does the best and several of them told me if a kid is hurt or sick or upset, that does really well. And so, you know, that kind of feeds into its own little monster there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It seems like this pushback against family vloggers, this like conversation about protecting child influencers is relatively new. Like it’s only been in the last couple of years that people are actually questioning the ethics of this industry. It’s probably because there are particularly egregious cases of child abuse that came out of this industry. Can we talk about that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So there’s two cases that really stick out to me. And one is, I’m sure you’re familiar with the Stauffer case. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Myka Stauffer was a YouTuber who built a following with videos about cleaning tips, parenting, and then trying to get pregnant after a miscarriage. Back in 2016, Micah and her husband announced that they were in the process of adopting a disabled baby boy from China. They were already popular, but their views skyrocketed with the adoption videos. They made a lot of monetized content about their adopted son and his medical needs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Myka Stauffer: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If anything, my child is not returnable. And we, without a doubt in our minds, we knew, no matter what state he came to us, that we would love him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then, followers noticed that he stopped appearing in videos. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then she made this like tearful apology video basically saying that he was living with another family and that he wasn’t in their family anymore. And it kind of went viral as like this YouTube mom rehomed her adoptive son after making money off of him and she was still after he wasn’t living there still had videos on YouTube that were monetized about him. And so there was kind of this outcry. And so that was the first thing that I think really like planted the seed for people. And then the eight passengers and Ruby Franke, I don’t even wanna call it a scandal because it’s child abuse, it’s not a scandal, but that entire case. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And what happened there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so Ruby Franke, her and her husband, Kevin, had this YouTube channel called 8 Passengers, and it was called 8 Passengers because they had six kids and so the eight of them. And they had over two million subscribers at their height. I kind of consider them to be family vlogging royalty at the time. They kind of faced this sort of cancelation where Ruby had posted a video where her son said that he hadn’t slept on a bed in seven months as punishment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She explained her teenage son Chad had been sleeping on a bean bag for months. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chad Franke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was sleeping on a beanbag since October and they gave me my room back like two weeks ago. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And people were like, “Wait, wait, wait, what?” Like, everyone was like, thought that Ruby had been kind of like a strict mom, but then this kind of like pushed it over the edge. And so people started digging into like, what is going on with this family? And then a couple of years later, Ruby was arrested for aggravated child abuse. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A once popular parenting YouTuber, Ruby Franke, will spend up to 60 years in prison. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She pleaded guilty to numerous charges, including things like holding a child’s head underwater, putting her hand over a child’s mouth and nose so they couldn’t breathe, kicking a child while she was wearing boots. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so that was kind of the second thing. You had like Myka Stauffer and then you had Ruby Franke where people were like, “There is a darkness behind the perfect veneer of the YouTube vlogging family.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Parents are supposed to be responsible for protecting their children, but clearly that isn’t always happening with family vloggers in this very lucrative industry. So is there anything out there to protect these kids? I think that’s a new tab, Child Influencer Protections. So last year, California Governor Gavin Newsom actually signed two pieces of legislation that have to do with child influencers. The first expands something called the Coogan Law.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a 1939 law named after a silent film star named Jackie Coogan, who worked his entire childhood. And basically, by the time he was an adult, there was no money left for him. So now, California requires that 15 % of whatever a child performer earns is saved in a trust for when that child turns 18. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But until last year, the Coogan Law only applied to child actors, as in kids who are working on actual film or television sets. This expansion extends the law to child content creators. That includes vloggers, influencers, streamers, podcasters. Whenever a kid, or their family, is paid directly to post something online. It’s pretty straightforward. But California’s other law is unclear. Here’s Fortesa again to explain. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So SB 764 dictates that content creators who feature minor children in at least 30% of their content must set aside a proportionate percentage of the earnings from that content to be held in a trust account until the child is 18. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now you may be wondering what does proportionate percentage even mean? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I’ve reached out to lawyers to ask and experts what a proportionate percentage like what that really means in practice and I haven’t been able to get like a good solid answer. Like the worry here is that you would need like a forensic accountant who has a specialization in social media to even know the right amount of money that should have been saved for you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like I can’t imagine going back through maybe like a decade of like YouTube and TikTok videos and trying to calculate like, “How much was I in this video? 29%. Okay, and they made $6 ,000 off it.” It’s very complicated, but I don’t know that there’s a better way. I’m not saying I have a better idea. And I think that kind of speaks to the convoluted nature of both the industry and attempts to regulate the industry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It doesn’t even touch on other protections for traditional child actors, like making sure they’re in school or that they’re allowed to take breaks. How do you even enforce something like that though? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t know. I think it’s so difficult because this work is happening largely in the home, right? Being a family vlogger, inherently your work is in your home and it is with your children and that’s really difficult. We know how this country feels about the government stepping in between parents and children. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. So, how do these new laws in California compare to similar laws in other states? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Illinois was first, Minnesota was second, and California was third. Illinois’s law is pretty similar to California’s law. Minnesota’s takes it a step further, and they have this clause that’s basically considered the right to be deleted. And so it states that upon reaching the age of 18, the former child influencer can request the deletion of content. I do think that that was Minnesota’s attempt to address the privacy concerns. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it’s also like, I don’t know, I sound like a boomer when I say this, but I feel like once something is on the internet, it really is kind of on the internet forever, especially like with these famous kids. Like you see it with the eight passengers stuff, right? Like after Ruby was arrested for child abuse, their channel was taken off of YouTube. And I’ve asked family members and they didn’t delete it. So it seems that YouTube took it offline in the wake of this arrest. But you can still find clips everywhere. Like if you look up Ruby Frankie on TikTok, you can watch entire vlogs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, this content thrives on platforms like YouTube and Instagram and TikTok, but do you see these platforms taking any action to protect these kids? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, what’s in it for them, you know? Like, I think these are companies that make a lot of money off of content featuring influencer kids. Family vlogging is a multi -billion dollar industry. I don’t think that there’s any reason for them to step in when it is so lucrative for them. Like that’s not their job to think about the child. That’s the parents’ job. The platform’s job is to make money which they’re doing off of this content. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So social media platforms have no incentive to restrict family vlogging and the new laws aren’t foolproof, not to mention a mess to enforce. Like Fortesa mentioned, it’s on the parents to have their kids’ best interests at heart. Well, when it comes to influencers who make a living off of sharing almost every aspect of their lives, what does that even look like? The answer, after this break. Now back to the story. When it comes to influencers sharing their kids’ lives online, is the tide changing at all? Okay, new tab. Influencers taking kids offline. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve noticed this in the last couple of years where huge influencers who built their considerable platforms off of showing their kids and sharing their life with their kids have reversed course. The biggest person that comes to mind for me is Maia Knight. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. She was a single mom who had twins. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. Yeah. She would be holding both the babies and making bottles at the same time. It was just these very real videos. She got super famous. Got like 8 million followers on TikTok. And after a year or two, she decided, “I’m going to take my daughters off of TikTok and Instagram and everything.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maia Knight: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re toddlers now and I have decided to not show them anymore. I’m making a choice for my daughters to protect them. Am I going to lose followers? Yes I’m going to. Am I going to lose 8 million followers? I hope not. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And there was a huge amount of backlash to that. And it was fascinating because I think there were several camps. Some people were like, “How dare you? We love them. We’re their TikTok aunties. You can’t do this,” which like, parasocial. Yeah. And I’m sure I’ve talked to other huge creators who have taken their kids offline and they told me that reactions like that totally solidify their choice and they’re like, this is why I’m doing it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there was another camp who were like, “Maya has been exploiting her kids and now that she has this huge like brand, she’s taking them off, but it’s too late.” Which like, I don’t really understand as a concept. It’s like, do you want that to happen or do you not? I think there’s this like purity test kind of thing. Like there’s this idea. among detractors that if you ever show your kid online at all, you are evil and immoral. And I totally do not believe that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there are people who have become moms in their influencing careers and have never shown their kids at all. And that’s really fascinating to me as a reporter, because a few years ago there was never a question about whether an influencer would show their kid online or not. Like if you were having a baby, like that baby was gonna be in a ton of content. But now when a public facing influencer is pregnant, there is the question of like, “Which camp kind of are they gonna go into?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right, I remember when family vloggers would announce that they were pregnant again, they would start an Instagram account for the fetus, post ultrasounds, they were posting the kid before they were even born. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, yeah, and narrating like the fetus’s thoughts and like \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, like I can’t wait to meet you all. It’s like that is a six-month-old fetus. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, no, that kind of stuff has definitely fallen out of favor. Although, I don’t want to make it seem as though the majority of influencers aren’t showing their kids because they are, definitely. But there is this growing contingent where they’re not. And this is even happening among regular people. It’s not only influencers, it’s regular people who have a couple hundred followers who are like, I don’t really want to put my kid on Instagram or on TikTok. It’s interesting because I’ll interview these parents and I’m like, why did you not want to put your kid online or why did you not want to announce your pregnancy? And they have like specific reasons like online footprint which again, we were not talking about a few years ago or like worries about AI, but there’s also just this like sense of like uneasiness and just being like, “Why would I?” Which is fascinating to me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, you just had a baby, so congratulations, by the way, and you also fell into that camp of like, not announcing your pregnancy, you kind of just hard launched with like a baby. How did you come to that decision to never post your child’s face online? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. You know, I thought about this a lot. And obviously I was doing like a lot of this reporting on influencer kids and like what their lives are like. And not that I’m an influencer in any way, but like I said, kind of the way that influencers live their lives trickles down to the rest of us, like plebeians. And so we were all kind of just becoming more aware of like privacy. And when I was pregnant, I… just had this gut feeling that I just didn’t want anyone who didn’t know me in real life to know. And even now, I feel so strongly about it that I don’t want her to be on the internet and that I don’t want information or photos of her to be on the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean. There’s also a lot of discussion about whether or not you can talk about your kids online or write about parenting without exposing your kid. I mean, what are your thoughts on this? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I am very much trying to figure this out because I have benefited so much from the writing and the content of other moms specifically and like being able to watch really personal moments in their lives and have them talk about postpartum depression or their struggles with sleep training or whatever it is and like I have learned things about their kids. Like, I have benefited so much and I’m sure they benefited from sharing it. And I don’t think that we need to go back to a time when moms were not allowed to talk about what motherhood and parenthood is like. And I’m saying moms, because most parenthood content online is by moms. I’ve heard this from other creators too, is that they try to think, what will my kid think about this in five years, in 10 years, in 15 years? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’ve also talked to kids of those first mommy bloggers and – I’m not saying this is the experience of every kid of a mom blogger, but the ones that I’ve talked to are like, “It is incredible to read how my mom felt when she was raising me and what she thought.” And they have these like incredible records, you know? So I also, I don’t want to take it too far on one side either. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you speak to the way that this industry and just overarching culture is changing the relationships between kids and parents? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fortesa Latifi:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s just so complicated and obviously parents have to make choices for their kids that the kids might not agree with later. But I think how many choices has really just been exacerbated by the internet and by the way it’s able to change people’s lives. And that’s the thing is I hear from a lot of parents who are like, “My kid is begging me to start a YouTube channel, like my kid wants to be a YouTuber and influencer.” And like yeah, that I understand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And like, from the kids point of view, like, why wouldn’t they want to, you know? But I think the parent has to make the best decision that they can at the time. And I think sometimes those decisions change, like you see with parents changing their minds later and taking their kids offline. And I think as a culture, just like generally, we need to be more accepting of people like changing their minds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is one of those internet rabbit holes that ultimately just doesn’t have a single answer at the end. These laws are a start, but enacting real change also involves a larger cultural shift in the way that we consume and post content. Remember Caymi? She’s the former mommy blogger kid who grew up and became an advocate for child influencers. She thinks kids should be allowed to exist without a camera in their face. And if you’re an influencer kid, here’s her advice to you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Caymi Barrett:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you get older, you’re gonna meet so many people who are so different from, your parents are so different from the people who have viewed you your entire childhood, and they’re going to see you for who you are instead of seeing you for what your parents posted. I think it’s really important to literally be a kid, like, by yourself, at school, even if you have a friend that you trust to talk to about this. It’s so hard carrying all of it on your shoulders alone, but you don’t have to. And I wish that I had known that as a kid. Yeah, we’re fighting for y’all. We’re not gonna stop. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For now, let’s close these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan Sung\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Our Producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts and helps edit the show. Sound design by Maya Cueva and original music by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. Mixing and mastering by Brendan Willard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad and Alana Walker. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Holly Kernan is our Chief Content Officer. Support for this program comes from Birong Hu and supporters of the KQED Studios Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustilver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you have any feedback or a topic you think we should cover, hit us up at CloseAllTabs@KQED.org. Follow us on Instagram at CloseAllTabsPod. And if you’re enjoying the show, give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you use. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>It’s no secret that our personal data is \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11844163/proposition-24-californians-say-yes-to-expanding-on-nations-toughest-data-privacy-law\">for sale\u003c/a>: everything from our demographic profiles to where we swipe the screen as we shop online. Now, companies are weaponizing that information to surreptitiously charge some customers more than others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The practice, known as surveillance pricing, has spread in recent years, according to \u003ca href=\"https://consumerwatchdog.org/privacy/new-report-details-how-companies-use-surveillance-to-charge-different-prices-for-the-same-item/\">consumer \u003c/a>and \u003ca href=\"https://towardsjustice.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/Real-Surveillance-Prices-and-Wages-Report.pdf\">privacy \u003c/a>watchdogs, and it’s become increasingly difficult to escape, no matter how often we clear our cookies or tighten our privacy settings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Creepy. Enraging. In many cases, legal. But some California lawmakers want to change that. At least four lawmakers have introduced bills during this legislative session to regulate surveillance pricing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You walk into a grocery store, you’re surveilled,” said Kristin Heidelbach, Legislative Director for United Food & Commercial Workers Western States Council, which is backing \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260AB446\">AB-446\u003c/a>, which “would prohibit a person from setting a price offered to a consumer-based, in whole or in part, upon personally identifiable information, as defined, gathered through an electronic surveillance technology, as defined, including electronic shelving labels.” Heidelbach’s organization, according to its website, represents more than 200,000 food, pharmacists and cannabis workers across California, Nevada, Arizona and Utah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is a consumer issue, but our grocery workers and our pharmacists are also consumers, and they feel that pinch as well, and so we look at it as a righteous fight to try to make it more affordable for people to live,” Heidelbach said. “Folks who are hit the hardest in bad economic times, people who are living paycheck to paycheck, are the ones who are squeezed the most.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Surveillance pricing can show up in different ways, both online and in real life. \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/technology-business-lawsuits-california-target-corp-35db1e4f1ea1d43ef7a1f7f2b4630c41\">Target settled a California lawsuit\u003c/a> in 2022 for raising prices for customers who appeared to be close to making a purchase because they were in or near a store. The growing use of digital price tags by retailers like Target and \u003ca href=\"https://corporate.walmart.com/news/2024/06/06/new-tech-better-outcomes-digital-shelf-labels-are-a-win-for-customers-and-associates\">Walmart\u003c/a> allows them to automate price updates, in some cases based on information about individual customers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In other words, let’s say a consumer is lingering in the dairy section on a shopping trip. The retailer may have information that hints at their level of commitment to the purchase. Maybe they’re a parent with small children. Maybe the dinner hour is approaching, and the store’s about to close. All these data points paint a picture of someone who is vulnerable to price gouging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_11947039 hero='https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/04/RS40986_iStock-1170728885-qut-1020x680.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They have all the tools they need to track you from the time you walk inside the grocery store,” explained Heidelbach. “Then [retailers] take those data points, and they will adjust the price…while you’re standing in a store. They can track on your phone how many times you’ve looked up something. You go to pick up a gallon of milk, and it’s one price, and then by the time you get up to the front, [the price] has already fluctuated.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Federal anti-discrimination laws prohibit predatory pricing in particularly sensitive applications like employment, housing, and credit, but it still happens. Attorneys general nationwide have filed multiple lawsuits against corporate landlords for \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11995878/ai-raising-the-rent-san-francisco-could-be-the-first-city-to-ban-the-practice\">alleged collusion inflating rents\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California already has some protections in place in the form of The California Consumer Privacy Act, which limits the amount of information that businesses can collect and use to make decisions about consumers. “But, more can be done,” Maureen Mahoney, Deputy Director of Policy & Legislation for the California Privacy Protection Agency, wrote in an email to KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Consumers shouldn’t have to worry that where they live or how they browse a store will be used to determine how much they pay for important purchases,” wrote Mahoney in an email to KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With an \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11947039/delete-act-seeks-to-give-californians-more-power-to-block-data-tracking\">established history\u003c/a> of leading in the consumer privacy space, California lawmakers are joining those in other states like Colorado, Georgia, and Illinois to pick up where federal regulators are expected to leave off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In January of this year, the Federal Trade Commission announced the\u003ca href=\"https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2025/01/ftc-surveillance-pricing-study-indicates-wide-range-personal-data-used-set-individualized-consumer\"> results of its survey\u003c/a> of companies that publicly touted their use of AI and machine learning to engage in data-driven targeting, but after President Donald Trump took office, incoming chair Andrew Ferguson \u003ca href=\"https://www.mediapost.com/publications/article/402809/new-ftc-chair-cancels-request-for-comments-on-sur.html\">canceled\u003c/a> the agency’s request for public comments to continue the inquiry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s too early in California’s legislative session — Friday was the filing deadline for new bills in Sacramento — to determine which prospective measures will succeed in making it to Governor Gavin Newsom’s desk. It’s common practice for lawmakers to change a measure’s language substantially as it moves through committees with the help of other lawmakers, lobbyists, as well as privacy and consumer advocates.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>State Sen. Aisha Wahab (D–Hayward) has introduced a couple of bills [\u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB384&firstNav=tracking\">SB-384\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB259&firstNav=tracking\">SB-259\u003c/a>] that would restrict companies from using algorithms for dynamic pricing. She said she expects pushback from a variety of industries, and not just in Silicon Valley, as dynamic pricing has become a big money maker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“But I have always seen my job as a policymaker is to put safeguards there to protect the average person,” Wahab said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>It’s no secret that our personal data is \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11844163/proposition-24-californians-say-yes-to-expanding-on-nations-toughest-data-privacy-law\">for sale\u003c/a>: everything from our demographic profiles to where we swipe the screen as we shop online. Now, companies are weaponizing that information to surreptitiously charge some customers more than others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The practice, known as surveillance pricing, has spread in recent years, according to \u003ca href=\"https://consumerwatchdog.org/privacy/new-report-details-how-companies-use-surveillance-to-charge-different-prices-for-the-same-item/\">consumer \u003c/a>and \u003ca href=\"https://towardsjustice.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/Real-Surveillance-Prices-and-Wages-Report.pdf\">privacy \u003c/a>watchdogs, and it’s become increasingly difficult to escape, no matter how often we clear our cookies or tighten our privacy settings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Creepy. Enraging. In many cases, legal. But some California lawmakers want to change that. At least four lawmakers have introduced bills during this legislative session to regulate surveillance pricing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You walk into a grocery store, you’re surveilled,” said Kristin Heidelbach, Legislative Director for United Food & Commercial Workers Western States Council, which is backing \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260AB446\">AB-446\u003c/a>, which “would prohibit a person from setting a price offered to a consumer-based, in whole or in part, upon personally identifiable information, as defined, gathered through an electronic surveillance technology, as defined, including electronic shelving labels.” Heidelbach’s organization, according to its website, represents more than 200,000 food, pharmacists and cannabis workers across California, Nevada, Arizona and Utah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is a consumer issue, but our grocery workers and our pharmacists are also consumers, and they feel that pinch as well, and so we look at it as a righteous fight to try to make it more affordable for people to live,” Heidelbach said. “Folks who are hit the hardest in bad economic times, people who are living paycheck to paycheck, are the ones who are squeezed the most.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Surveillance pricing can show up in different ways, both online and in real life. \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/technology-business-lawsuits-california-target-corp-35db1e4f1ea1d43ef7a1f7f2b4630c41\">Target settled a California lawsuit\u003c/a> in 2022 for raising prices for customers who appeared to be close to making a purchase because they were in or near a store. The growing use of digital price tags by retailers like Target and \u003ca href=\"https://corporate.walmart.com/news/2024/06/06/new-tech-better-outcomes-digital-shelf-labels-are-a-win-for-customers-and-associates\">Walmart\u003c/a> allows them to automate price updates, in some cases based on information about individual customers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In other words, let’s say a consumer is lingering in the dairy section on a shopping trip. The retailer may have information that hints at their level of commitment to the purchase. Maybe they’re a parent with small children. Maybe the dinner hour is approaching, and the store’s about to close. All these data points paint a picture of someone who is vulnerable to price gouging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They have all the tools they need to track you from the time you walk inside the grocery store,” explained Heidelbach. “Then [retailers] take those data points, and they will adjust the price…while you’re standing in a store. They can track on your phone how many times you’ve looked up something. You go to pick up a gallon of milk, and it’s one price, and then by the time you get up to the front, [the price] has already fluctuated.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Federal anti-discrimination laws prohibit predatory pricing in particularly sensitive applications like employment, housing, and credit, but it still happens. Attorneys general nationwide have filed multiple lawsuits against corporate landlords for \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11995878/ai-raising-the-rent-san-francisco-could-be-the-first-city-to-ban-the-practice\">alleged collusion inflating rents\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California already has some protections in place in the form of The California Consumer Privacy Act, which limits the amount of information that businesses can collect and use to make decisions about consumers. “But, more can be done,” Maureen Mahoney, Deputy Director of Policy & Legislation for the California Privacy Protection Agency, wrote in an email to KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Consumers shouldn’t have to worry that where they live or how they browse a store will be used to determine how much they pay for important purchases,” wrote Mahoney in an email to KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With an \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11947039/delete-act-seeks-to-give-californians-more-power-to-block-data-tracking\">established history\u003c/a> of leading in the consumer privacy space, California lawmakers are joining those in other states like Colorado, Georgia, and Illinois to pick up where federal regulators are expected to leave off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In January of this year, the Federal Trade Commission announced the\u003ca href=\"https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2025/01/ftc-surveillance-pricing-study-indicates-wide-range-personal-data-used-set-individualized-consumer\"> results of its survey\u003c/a> of companies that publicly touted their use of AI and machine learning to engage in data-driven targeting, but after President Donald Trump took office, incoming chair Andrew Ferguson \u003ca href=\"https://www.mediapost.com/publications/article/402809/new-ftc-chair-cancels-request-for-comments-on-sur.html\">canceled\u003c/a> the agency’s request for public comments to continue the inquiry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s too early in California’s legislative session — Friday was the filing deadline for new bills in Sacramento — to determine which prospective measures will succeed in making it to Governor Gavin Newsom’s desk. It’s common practice for lawmakers to change a measure’s language substantially as it moves through committees with the help of other lawmakers, lobbyists, as well as privacy and consumer advocates.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>State Sen. Aisha Wahab (D–Hayward) has introduced a couple of bills [\u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB384&firstNav=tracking\">SB-384\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB259&firstNav=tracking\">SB-259\u003c/a>] that would restrict companies from using algorithms for dynamic pricing. She said she expects pushback from a variety of industries, and not just in Silicon Valley, as dynamic pricing has become a big money maker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“But I have always seen my job as a policymaker is to put safeguards there to protect the average person,” Wahab said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On January 18, 2025, TikTok went down for U.S. users. After just 14 hours, it was back. Since then, questions have been swirling online. Has the algorithm changed? Was the ban just a ruse? Has TikTok gone… conservative? In this episode, internet culture expert Taylor Lorenz joins Morgan to break down the answers to those questions. They’ll dig into the real reasons for the ban and what the future holds for progressive speech on an internet that has been drifting steadily to the right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8580909904\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let me set the scene for you. January 18th, 2025. It’s been a long day, and you plop down on the couch to relax. It’s two days till the second inauguration of Donald J. Trump, and you have no idea what chaos is on the other side of that date. The Supreme Court has just decided to uphold the law banning TikTok. But there’s no way the app will actually go down, right? So you and your phone settle in on the couch for your early evening scroll. Your whole for you page is goodbye messages from people who have found community on the app. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>TikTok Voice 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s just like, why would they take this app from the girls? Like if you wanted to take it, take it from the boys, not the girls, not the girls. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>TikTok Voice 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s just an app, but it’s our whole life now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>TikTok Voice 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So just in case, if this is it, there’s no way I could leave without telling you guys thank you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as you scroll, the app starts to get a little buggy. You can’t respond to comments. Your DMs are frozen. New videos won’t load. And then you get this message. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James Charles: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We were all just literally scrolling and drawing our last couple of moments on the app when we got a pop up saying, sorry, TikTok is closed. Hopefully Donald Trump will bring it back. What? Land of the free home of the brave. I don’t f***ing think so. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok has finally gone down in the United States, at least. Somehow YouTuber James Charles manages to get back in and he posts an update to the rest of the world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James Charles: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t know if you guys can hear me or see me or if this is even going to work. I think I may have found a loophole while the rest of America is banned. They told us the app was going to be banned at midnight. Surprise! They took it from us two and a half hours early. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But for the rest of us, chaos ensues online. People are flocking to other apps in hopes that they can rebuild their communities and more importantly, resume scrolling. There’s Red Note, the English name for Xiaohongshu, which is a Chinese social media app similar to Instagram. Some creators have already been there for days in anticipation of the ban. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>TikTok Voice 4: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, everybody. My name is Jeffrey. I’m a TikTok refugee. I’ve been practicing my Mandarin for a year now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The shutdown lasts for a whopping 14 hours. After all that drama, it was back up and running the next day. When users returned to the app on inauguration day, TikTok greeted them with this pop-up message. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>AI Voice: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome back. Thanks for your patience and support. As a result of President Trump’s efforts, TikTok is back in the U .S. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donald Trump: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as of today, TikTok is back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Creators have come back to the app and resumed posting as normal. And after a few weeks of not being available, it’s already back in app stores. But since the shutdown and TikTok’s new closeness with the Trump administration, many users say the vibe on the app feels different. Is it just shifting political winds or is it something more? Rumor has it that TikTok is becoming… conservative. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan Sung\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s anything the internet loves, it’s a good conspiracy theory. So with TikTok, questions are swirling. Did the algorithm change? Are progressives being censored? Was the whole ban an elaborate setup to move the app to the right? New tab. Is TikTok actually more conservative now? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To get to the bottom of this, we called up internet culture expert \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, who’s been reporting on the TikTok ban saga from the very beginning. She writes about all things tech and online culture for her newsletter, User Mag, hosts the podcast Power User, and wrote an extensive history of the creator economy in her book, Extremely Online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey, Taylor, how are you doing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Good. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to start off by talking about the TikTok inauguration party. You were there. What was it like? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was wild. It was crowded. It was packed with TikTok merch and these giant screens that were like looping right-wing content creators’ videos. It felt like a frat party, honestly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, just seeing pictures from it, it looked like any other influencer party. But has TikTok openly supported any US politician before? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No. TikTok as a company has not openly supported any politician before they sort of openly began supporting Trump over inauguration weekend. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So for those who aren’t familiar, can you briefly explain who TikTok CEO Shou Chew is? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Shou Chew is a Singaporean. He is the CEO of TikTok, Inc., which of course is not based in China. TikTok is based in Singapore and the United States. Shou is based in Singapore. And he is the CEO. So he is the one that kind of runs all the day-to-day operations. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as you wrote about in your coverage for Rolling Stone about the party, he wasn’t at the party itself, but he was at inauguration. And that seemed to throw a lot of people for a loop. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I wasn’t that surprised to see him at inauguration just because every single tech CEO was at inauguration. I mean, you had Tim Cook, you had Sundar Pichai, you had obviously Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk. But TikTok is in the throes of this ban right now. They desperately want to not be banned and to continue to do business in the U .S. And so, of course, they’re going to do anything they can to kiss up to the government. I don’t think that this means at all that Shou is some sort of Trump supporter. We have no idea what his politics are. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, that brings me to my next question, which is about the message that users got when TikTok came back online, when TikTok was kind of explicitly thanking Trump. What are your thoughts on this? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think this is opportunism. I don’t think people should mistake this for any sort of political support for Trump’s agenda. They just want to continue to operate. They want Trump to somehow find a way to overturn this ban. We know that Trump responds very well to flattery, to kind of, you know, people bowing down, look at what Elon has done, really kissing up to him in sort of a personal manner and treating him with kid gloves. And so I think that’s what that is. It is an attempt to curry favor with a president who has shown that he’s willing to help people who personally are loyal to him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But how did people react to getting that message? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, people reacted quite negatively to getting the message, especially TikTok’s user base. You have to remember, according to Pew Research, TikTok has the most progressive news influencer ecosystem. It’s a very LGBTQ-friendly app. It’s a very diverse app. And so a lot of these people are very against Trump. And so I think they were very upset. When they saw that message, they felt like, “Oh, is TikTok now just going to be another app that caters to right-wing content creators and suppresses progressive speech?” Which is the case on, as I’ve reported, on apps like Twitter, of course, now, and Meta platforms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And since TikTok came back online, people have made a ton of different claims about how the algorithm is changing and how it seems to be getting more conservative. What do you think? What have you seen? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So there’s no hard evidence that the algorithm has changed. It’s so hyper-specific and it’s so dependent on so many factors that there is no kind of universal algorithm the way people think of it. There are just thousands and thousands of inputs. I know people talk about getting a lot more Trump content on their feed or pro-Trump content on their feed. I don’t think that is necessarily due to algorithmic changes as much as it is Trump is now our president. There’s an overwhelming amount of news about him. A lot of people are hyper-engaged in those news cycles, especially if you’re trying to pay attention to whether TikTok is banned, you’re going to be paying attention to what Trump is doing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And there’s a flood of right-wing content creators on the app. So previously, a lot of people that were banned from the app have been let back on or were, you know, deprioritizing the app because it was not a place, you know, that they considered friendly to right-wing speech. Now, of course, they consider it a place that’s friendly to right -wing speech. So I do know that the vibe has changed. I just don’t know how top-down it is. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so it seems unlikely that there’s been a wholesale change to the algorithm in a planned strategic way. But since the election and even before that, it does feel like there’s been a rightward shift across the entire internet and all the social media platforms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that’s a new tab. Is all social media moving to the right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, TikTok has a sort of reputation as this bastion of leftist free speech. But a recent study actually found that during the election, TikTok was more likely to promote Republican-leaning content to Democrat-leaning users than the other way around. What do you think of this? I mean, again, is it some grand conspiracy or is it just that conservative content makes better engagement bait? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, so much of it is just that conservatives are excellent leveraging algorithmic feeds and online attention. And you just had a lot of conservatives leveraging the internet and leveraging platforms like TikTok this election cycle to get their message out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And like you’ve written about in your newsletter, there is no built-in support infrastructure for left-leaning content creators. Can you talk more about that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So on the right, there’s an incredibly well-funded, sort of well-oiled machine. It’s an entire ecosystem of right-wing content creators from extreme far-right Nazis, basically, to sort of more mainstream trad wives, all of these people that are funded by the same sort of group of conservative billionaire donors that participate in these networks, etc. There’s absolutely nothing like that on the left. In fact, if you are on the left, you’re more likely to have your content censored. You’re more likely to have your account taken down and demonetized. It is much harder to get any sort of support. There’s no funding ecosystem. You are out there on your own and you’re being attacked by both the Democratic-centrist mainstream party and you’re also being attacked by the right. So it’s just you’re up against so many sort of barriers. And you’re not going to get any brand deals. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you’ve written about this in an essay called The Great Creator Reset. And you’ve written about how without TikTok, there is nowhere for leftist content creators. Can you talk more about that too? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. So TikTok was really the last app that sort of allowed for a progressive content creator ecosystem. It allowed for progressive speech and activism the way that Twitter used to. If you think of Twitter actually back in 2015, 2016, 2017, you saw it as this hub for the Black Lives Matter movement, for the Me Too movement, etc. Now, of course, Twitter is owned by Elon Musk, who has openly stated that he’s leveraging the platform to push right wing messaging. He’s intentionally doing all of these things that they hauled Mark Zuckerberg in front of Congress for in 2017. Elon Musk is sort of openly doing with Twitter now, or X rather. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you are left-wing on that app, you are likely to be perma-banned. There are tons of activists that have been perma-banned, journalists that have been perma-banned. There is no platform that truly allows progressive speech to flourish. TikTok was that last remaining platform. And that is, to be clear, why it’s being banned. The reason TikTok is being banned, as I have reported, as Drew Harwell at the Washington Post reported, as pretty much every good reporter on this beat has made quite clear, it is not about data privacy. It is not about, quote unquote, China. It is about the speech on the app and what people were saying on the app, specifically progressive speech. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as The Intercept pointed out in an article that was published right before TikTok went down, suppressing progressive speech includes censoring pro-Palestinian content. Republican politicians have explicitly accused TikTok of pushing anti-Israeli propaganda. Former Wisconsin representative Mike Gallagher described TikTok as, quote, digital fentanyl from China, end quote, that was allegedly turning young people against American allies. And here’s Senator Mitt Romney last year at a forum for the McCain Institute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mitt Romney: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some wonder why there was such overwhelming support for us to shut down potentially TikTok or other entities of that nature. If you look at the postings on TikTok and the number of mentions of Palestinians relative to other social media sites, it’s overwhelmingly so among TikTok. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In both public statements and in Supreme Court filings, TikTok said that its recommendation algorithm does not take sides and that according to polling, young people have been increasingly sympathetic to Palestinians since 2010. That’s years before TikTok even existed. Now, since October 7th, 2023, Palestinian creators have used TikTok to report on the realities of living in Gaza to an international audience. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bisan Owda: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi everyone this is Bisan from Gaza, I’m still alive. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Motaz Azaiza: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh the situation is so… bad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Medo Halimy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ll leave you with some footage I took right after that event…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok is a key window into the experiences of those creators and the ban would effectively sever their connection with U .S. audiences. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That is what Rep. Gallagher was able to use to get people back on board with this ban that was completely politically dead. It wasn’t until there was this right-wing effort to associate TikTok with progressive movements, because again, it was a hub for progressive activism, and use that to push a ban, a bipartisan ban. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, you just look at other social media platforms like Meta and like X or formerly Twitter, but you just compare the way that people talk about Palestine and TikTok to Meta and on X and you realize how much further right that those platforms are. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, Elon Musk has not hidden this. He has admitted that he is using the platform to push right-wing messaging and we know that from every single ounce of reporting. And same thing with Meta. Meta is also catering to conservatives. They have long had right-wing people in power of their policy team. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s interesting because Zuckerberg has always been a billionaire and I think will always be motivated by money. But his politics seemed totally different during the first Trump term. I mean, now Meta is rolling back DEI policies and hateful conduct policies. Why capitulate to the right now? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, because it wasn’t socially acceptable to capitulate to the right during Trump’s first term, you had this whole resistance movement and Trump’s presidency was seen as this aberration. It was seen as sort of like this thing to resist against. And so tech companies were attacked for helping to put Trump in office and held to this really high standard from the public and also from people in power. Now, Trump has been completely normalized. There is no resistance and people are pretty culturally on board with Trump. Again, Trump won the popular vote this time. It was not a huge surprise that he won. And so he’s just been normalized like any other president. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If the TikTok we knew is truly dead, where does that leave its 170 million US users? What are their other options? We’ll dig into that after the break. So if you’re a creator whose main platform is TikTok, what can and should you be doing right now? Okay, new tab. Who is actually leaving TikTok? So creators are complaining, you know, as usual, complaining about shadow bans, complaining about being restricted. But do you see anyone actually leaving the app? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right now, creators have not left the app. I think creators are still delusional that it’s not going to get banned. What I tell them is that they should get off as soon as possible. They should be focused on building their platforms elsewhere. But I think a lot of them feel there is no place for these progressive content creators to go. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. I mean, I know there’s a lot of talk about Red Note, but I mean, I’ve used Red Note for a while. And Red Note is like, yeah, exactly. Red Note just does not have the culture for discourse the way that TikTok does. It’s the app for hot, rich Chinese girls. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s just, Red Note doesn’t function the same way as TikTok. It’s much more similar to Instagram in a lot of ways. It’s just, it doesn’t have the functionality. It doesn’t have the culture. It doesn’t have the user base. It doesn’t have the broad— I mean, so much of what made TikTok successful is that it also allowed you to interact with people around the globe. There’s such a global user base to TikTok. And that just doesn’t exist on a lot of these other platforms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. I mean, we’re not finding that on Reels. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, definitely not. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All I’m getting on Reels are weird raw milk ads. So I’m kind of giving up there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Reels is a cursed, cursed ecosystem and nothing like TikTok. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a lot of talk about whether creators can keep getting paid now that the ban is supposed to be in effect. If not for politics, do you think a change in monetization will actually drive creators away? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the inability for a lot of creators to monetize is what ultimately will also force them off the platform because there is just no way to make a living. Brands have already pulled all their money out. I mean, unfortunately, the campaign against TikTok has been so successful. It just has financially devastated the app and the ecosystem on there in ways that I think will be very difficult to recover from, even if Congress was to reverse the ban, which they’re not going to do. Right now, it’s impossible for these creators to replicate what they’re doing, which is progressive activism on other apps because other apps are so incredibly hostile to that style of content. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They also just don’t have that kind of built-in back and forth functionality that TikTok has. I’ve seen a lot of people on TikTok talk about how much of a struggle it is to move to YouTube because you’re suddenly talking to a wall instead of… Yeah, exactly. You’re not talking directly to your audience anymore. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. YouTube is so radically different. YouTube Shorts is nothing like TikTok at all. It’s nothing like TikTok. It is a broadcast medium. It’s very one way. There’s no discourse. There’s no interactivity. There’s no communities that form around there. It’s just a place to put clips to long-form videos. That’s so different than TikTok, which again, I think people need to understand is like a mobile video version of Twitter in terms of how you can interact, reshare, build on content and leverage mass virality. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The ban is currently in a holding pattern set to actually take effect sometime this spring, depending on whether the president delays it again. There is an alternative to a full-on ban on TikTok. That’s a new tab. TikTok forced sale. When Congress passed the law last year, they offered a choice to TikTok’s parent company, ByteDance: sell TikTok to another party or we’ll ban the app. That law was just upheld by the Supreme Court in January. But so far, there aren’t a lot of serious candidates. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lots of people are claiming to buy TikTok for clout, which you mentioned in your newsletter. Like you have Mr. Beast. You have the very controversial streaming platform Kik. And Trump floated the idea of a 50-50 partnership between ByteDance and an American company. But how would the sale of TikTok change the culture of the app? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok is a global tech platform. Imagine if suddenly Romania was like, “Hey, Ford Motor Company, you can’t sell your cars here until you sell the entire company to us.” I mean, America is not even TikTok’s biggest market. Also, it’s just unclear how it would even happen because TikTok would be creating a local product that then competes with their global product. Basically, they would have to create a separate version of TikTok. At that point, it’s just Triller or some other app that’s not TikTok. They’ll call it TikTok, but it won’t be TikTok. They’ll take that skin and create a separate app. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, it’s just about censoring speech, because we have tons of Chinese social media apps. We have tons of Chinese investments. We have tons of Chinese platforms that people use on a daily basis. We have platforms like Temu and Shein that collect far more sensitive user data than TikTok and that are actually based in China, unlike TikTok, where TikTok is not based in China and user data is not stored in China. So, it’s just a farce. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There is a vibe shift on TikTok. Even if it’s not some sort of intentional grand conspiracy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I totally agree, yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you think is really behind it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, look, I think the ban is behind it. I think TikTok was banned. The effect that that ban has had, even though it’s been temporarily reinstated… tons of people deleted the app. You’ve also seen a flood of right-wingers leaning really hard into the app because, again, they feel like it’s pro-Trump. I think the app is in peril. It’s not the app that it was even six months ago. It’s under such a microscope that I do think that their enforcement team has stepped up a little bit against certain types of speech. I don’t know. Again, we don’t know that they’re censoring more, but I do think that it might be reasonable to assume that because they’re under a microscope, they’re taking reports of wrongdoing seriously. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think a lot of it is also just not even TikTok. It’s just the vibe shift in America, right? There is a cultural vibe shift that’s happened as Trump has taken his second term, right? And you’re seeing the normalization of online hate, of people saying slurs openly again. You’re seeing a lot of hatred towards immigrants, people of color, normalized. Again, there is no resistance movement the way that there was in 2017. So culturally, I think Trumpism has won right now, and that is the world that we’re living in. And yes, that is going to make all of these platforms sort of feel different. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, last question. What would an internet without TikTok really look like? What would that mean for the way people interact with each other and also access information? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">An internet without TikTok is an internet where people are a lot less informed. You have a less informed public. As I’ve written, TikTok has been an essential way that young people, especially get news and information. As Twitter has been dismantled as a news source, that entire ecosystem of access to information about wars, climate disasters, whatever, the LA fires, it’s all moved to TikTok. So TikTok is where people are getting information. It’s where people are learning about social justice issues. It’s where people are, again, doing activism. When that is shut down, you’ll have a less informed public. You’ll have a less free public. I think it’s increasingly harder for people to get their voice out and speak open and freely on the internet. TikTok gave people the ability to have a platform, reach people en masse, and do real activism. And so, yeah, we’re going to have a lot less freedoms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So even if TikTok is back online, like Taylor mentioned, what’s it going to feel like going forward? This was a place that served as a news source, a trend accelerator, and a platform for activism and protest. Clearly, it’s no longer the same. As TikTok and other social media platforms continue to censor content, especially progressive speech, we have to wonder, will online freedom of speech become obsolete? Will there be any platform for content creators of all political leanings to have a voice? Okay, that’s a deep dive for another day. Before we spiral right now, let’s close these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan Sung\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Our Producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts and helps edit the show. Original music and sound design by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. Mixing and mastering by Brendan Willard. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad and Alana Walker. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager and Holly Kernan is our Chief Content Officer. Support for this program comes from Birong Hu and supporters of the KQED Studios Fund. Some members of the KQED Podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. If you have any feedback or a topic you think we should cover, hit us up at CloseAllTabs at KQED.org. Follow us on Instagram at CloseAllTabsPod. And if you’re enjoying the show, give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you use. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let me set the scene for you. January 18th, 2025. It’s been a long day, and you plop down on the couch to relax. It’s two days till the second inauguration of Donald J. Trump, and you have no idea what chaos is on the other side of that date. The Supreme Court has just decided to uphold the law banning TikTok. But there’s no way the app will actually go down, right? So you and your phone settle in on the couch for your early evening scroll. Your whole for you page is goodbye messages from people who have found community on the app. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>TikTok Voice 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s just like, why would they take this app from the girls? Like if you wanted to take it, take it from the boys, not the girls, not the girls. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>TikTok Voice 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s just an app, but it’s our whole life now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>TikTok Voice 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So just in case, if this is it, there’s no way I could leave without telling you guys thank you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as you scroll, the app starts to get a little buggy. You can’t respond to comments. Your DMs are frozen. New videos won’t load. And then you get this message. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James Charles: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We were all just literally scrolling and drawing our last couple of moments on the app when we got a pop up saying, sorry, TikTok is closed. Hopefully Donald Trump will bring it back. What? Land of the free home of the brave. I don’t f***ing think so. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok has finally gone down in the United States, at least. Somehow YouTuber James Charles manages to get back in and he posts an update to the rest of the world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James Charles: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t know if you guys can hear me or see me or if this is even going to work. I think I may have found a loophole while the rest of America is banned. They told us the app was going to be banned at midnight. Surprise! They took it from us two and a half hours early. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But for the rest of us, chaos ensues online. People are flocking to other apps in hopes that they can rebuild their communities and more importantly, resume scrolling. There’s Red Note, the English name for Xiaohongshu, which is a Chinese social media app similar to Instagram. Some creators have already been there for days in anticipation of the ban. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>TikTok Voice 4: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, everybody. My name is Jeffrey. I’m a TikTok refugee. I’ve been practicing my Mandarin for a year now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The shutdown lasts for a whopping 14 hours. After all that drama, it was back up and running the next day. When users returned to the app on inauguration day, TikTok greeted them with this pop-up message. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>AI Voice: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome back. Thanks for your patience and support. As a result of President Trump’s efforts, TikTok is back in the U .S. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donald Trump: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as of today, TikTok is back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Creators have come back to the app and resumed posting as normal. And after a few weeks of not being available, it’s already back in app stores. But since the shutdown and TikTok’s new closeness with the Trump administration, many users say the vibe on the app feels different. Is it just shifting political winds or is it something more? Rumor has it that TikTok is becoming… conservative. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan Sung\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s anything the internet loves, it’s a good conspiracy theory. So with TikTok, questions are swirling. Did the algorithm change? Are progressives being censored? Was the whole ban an elaborate setup to move the app to the right? New tab. Is TikTok actually more conservative now? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To get to the bottom of this, we called up internet culture expert \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, who’s been reporting on the TikTok ban saga from the very beginning. She writes about all things tech and online culture for her newsletter, User Mag, hosts the podcast Power User, and wrote an extensive history of the creator economy in her book, Extremely Online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey, Taylor, how are you doing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Good. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to start off by talking about the TikTok inauguration party. You were there. What was it like? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was wild. It was crowded. It was packed with TikTok merch and these giant screens that were like looping right-wing content creators’ videos. It felt like a frat party, honestly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, just seeing pictures from it, it looked like any other influencer party. But has TikTok openly supported any US politician before? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No. TikTok as a company has not openly supported any politician before they sort of openly began supporting Trump over inauguration weekend. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So for those who aren’t familiar, can you briefly explain who TikTok CEO Shou Chew is? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Shou Chew is a Singaporean. He is the CEO of TikTok, Inc., which of course is not based in China. TikTok is based in Singapore and the United States. Shou is based in Singapore. And he is the CEO. So he is the one that kind of runs all the day-to-day operations. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as you wrote about in your coverage for Rolling Stone about the party, he wasn’t at the party itself, but he was at inauguration. And that seemed to throw a lot of people for a loop. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I wasn’t that surprised to see him at inauguration just because every single tech CEO was at inauguration. I mean, you had Tim Cook, you had Sundar Pichai, you had obviously Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk. But TikTok is in the throes of this ban right now. They desperately want to not be banned and to continue to do business in the U .S. And so, of course, they’re going to do anything they can to kiss up to the government. I don’t think that this means at all that Shou is some sort of Trump supporter. We have no idea what his politics are. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, that brings me to my next question, which is about the message that users got when TikTok came back online, when TikTok was kind of explicitly thanking Trump. What are your thoughts on this? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think this is opportunism. I don’t think people should mistake this for any sort of political support for Trump’s agenda. They just want to continue to operate. They want Trump to somehow find a way to overturn this ban. We know that Trump responds very well to flattery, to kind of, you know, people bowing down, look at what Elon has done, really kissing up to him in sort of a personal manner and treating him with kid gloves. And so I think that’s what that is. It is an attempt to curry favor with a president who has shown that he’s willing to help people who personally are loyal to him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But how did people react to getting that message? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, people reacted quite negatively to getting the message, especially TikTok’s user base. You have to remember, according to Pew Research, TikTok has the most progressive news influencer ecosystem. It’s a very LGBTQ-friendly app. It’s a very diverse app. And so a lot of these people are very against Trump. And so I think they were very upset. When they saw that message, they felt like, “Oh, is TikTok now just going to be another app that caters to right-wing content creators and suppresses progressive speech?” Which is the case on, as I’ve reported, on apps like Twitter, of course, now, and Meta platforms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And since TikTok came back online, people have made a ton of different claims about how the algorithm is changing and how it seems to be getting more conservative. What do you think? What have you seen? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So there’s no hard evidence that the algorithm has changed. It’s so hyper-specific and it’s so dependent on so many factors that there is no kind of universal algorithm the way people think of it. There are just thousands and thousands of inputs. I know people talk about getting a lot more Trump content on their feed or pro-Trump content on their feed. I don’t think that is necessarily due to algorithmic changes as much as it is Trump is now our president. There’s an overwhelming amount of news about him. A lot of people are hyper-engaged in those news cycles, especially if you’re trying to pay attention to whether TikTok is banned, you’re going to be paying attention to what Trump is doing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And there’s a flood of right-wing content creators on the app. So previously, a lot of people that were banned from the app have been let back on or were, you know, deprioritizing the app because it was not a place, you know, that they considered friendly to right-wing speech. Now, of course, they consider it a place that’s friendly to right -wing speech. So I do know that the vibe has changed. I just don’t know how top-down it is. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so it seems unlikely that there’s been a wholesale change to the algorithm in a planned strategic way. But since the election and even before that, it does feel like there’s been a rightward shift across the entire internet and all the social media platforms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that’s a new tab. Is all social media moving to the right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, TikTok has a sort of reputation as this bastion of leftist free speech. But a recent study actually found that during the election, TikTok was more likely to promote Republican-leaning content to Democrat-leaning users than the other way around. What do you think of this? I mean, again, is it some grand conspiracy or is it just that conservative content makes better engagement bait? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, so much of it is just that conservatives are excellent leveraging algorithmic feeds and online attention. And you just had a lot of conservatives leveraging the internet and leveraging platforms like TikTok this election cycle to get their message out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And like you’ve written about in your newsletter, there is no built-in support infrastructure for left-leaning content creators. Can you talk more about that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So on the right, there’s an incredibly well-funded, sort of well-oiled machine. It’s an entire ecosystem of right-wing content creators from extreme far-right Nazis, basically, to sort of more mainstream trad wives, all of these people that are funded by the same sort of group of conservative billionaire donors that participate in these networks, etc. There’s absolutely nothing like that on the left. In fact, if you are on the left, you’re more likely to have your content censored. You’re more likely to have your account taken down and demonetized. It is much harder to get any sort of support. There’s no funding ecosystem. You are out there on your own and you’re being attacked by both the Democratic-centrist mainstream party and you’re also being attacked by the right. So it’s just you’re up against so many sort of barriers. And you’re not going to get any brand deals. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you’ve written about this in an essay called The Great Creator Reset. And you’ve written about how without TikTok, there is nowhere for leftist content creators. Can you talk more about that too? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. So TikTok was really the last app that sort of allowed for a progressive content creator ecosystem. It allowed for progressive speech and activism the way that Twitter used to. If you think of Twitter actually back in 2015, 2016, 2017, you saw it as this hub for the Black Lives Matter movement, for the Me Too movement, etc. Now, of course, Twitter is owned by Elon Musk, who has openly stated that he’s leveraging the platform to push right wing messaging. He’s intentionally doing all of these things that they hauled Mark Zuckerberg in front of Congress for in 2017. Elon Musk is sort of openly doing with Twitter now, or X rather. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you are left-wing on that app, you are likely to be perma-banned. There are tons of activists that have been perma-banned, journalists that have been perma-banned. There is no platform that truly allows progressive speech to flourish. TikTok was that last remaining platform. And that is, to be clear, why it’s being banned. The reason TikTok is being banned, as I have reported, as Drew Harwell at the Washington Post reported, as pretty much every good reporter on this beat has made quite clear, it is not about data privacy. It is not about, quote unquote, China. It is about the speech on the app and what people were saying on the app, specifically progressive speech. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as The Intercept pointed out in an article that was published right before TikTok went down, suppressing progressive speech includes censoring pro-Palestinian content. Republican politicians have explicitly accused TikTok of pushing anti-Israeli propaganda. Former Wisconsin representative Mike Gallagher described TikTok as, quote, digital fentanyl from China, end quote, that was allegedly turning young people against American allies. And here’s Senator Mitt Romney last year at a forum for the McCain Institute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mitt Romney: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some wonder why there was such overwhelming support for us to shut down potentially TikTok or other entities of that nature. If you look at the postings on TikTok and the number of mentions of Palestinians relative to other social media sites, it’s overwhelmingly so among TikTok. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In both public statements and in Supreme Court filings, TikTok said that its recommendation algorithm does not take sides and that according to polling, young people have been increasingly sympathetic to Palestinians since 2010. That’s years before TikTok even existed. Now, since October 7th, 2023, Palestinian creators have used TikTok to report on the realities of living in Gaza to an international audience. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bisan Owda: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi everyone this is Bisan from Gaza, I’m still alive. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Motaz Azaiza: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh the situation is so… bad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Medo Halimy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ll leave you with some footage I took right after that event…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok is a key window into the experiences of those creators and the ban would effectively sever their connection with U .S. audiences. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That is what Rep. Gallagher was able to use to get people back on board with this ban that was completely politically dead. It wasn’t until there was this right-wing effort to associate TikTok with progressive movements, because again, it was a hub for progressive activism, and use that to push a ban, a bipartisan ban. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, you just look at other social media platforms like Meta and like X or formerly Twitter, but you just compare the way that people talk about Palestine and TikTok to Meta and on X and you realize how much further right that those platforms are. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, Elon Musk has not hidden this. He has admitted that he is using the platform to push right-wing messaging and we know that from every single ounce of reporting. And same thing with Meta. Meta is also catering to conservatives. They have long had right-wing people in power of their policy team. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s interesting because Zuckerberg has always been a billionaire and I think will always be motivated by money. But his politics seemed totally different during the first Trump term. I mean, now Meta is rolling back DEI policies and hateful conduct policies. Why capitulate to the right now? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, because it wasn’t socially acceptable to capitulate to the right during Trump’s first term, you had this whole resistance movement and Trump’s presidency was seen as this aberration. It was seen as sort of like this thing to resist against. And so tech companies were attacked for helping to put Trump in office and held to this really high standard from the public and also from people in power. Now, Trump has been completely normalized. There is no resistance and people are pretty culturally on board with Trump. Again, Trump won the popular vote this time. It was not a huge surprise that he won. And so he’s just been normalized like any other president. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If the TikTok we knew is truly dead, where does that leave its 170 million US users? What are their other options? We’ll dig into that after the break. So if you’re a creator whose main platform is TikTok, what can and should you be doing right now? Okay, new tab. Who is actually leaving TikTok? So creators are complaining, you know, as usual, complaining about shadow bans, complaining about being restricted. But do you see anyone actually leaving the app? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right now, creators have not left the app. I think creators are still delusional that it’s not going to get banned. What I tell them is that they should get off as soon as possible. They should be focused on building their platforms elsewhere. But I think a lot of them feel there is no place for these progressive content creators to go. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. I mean, I know there’s a lot of talk about Red Note, but I mean, I’ve used Red Note for a while. And Red Note is like, yeah, exactly. Red Note just does not have the culture for discourse the way that TikTok does. It’s the app for hot, rich Chinese girls. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s just, Red Note doesn’t function the same way as TikTok. It’s much more similar to Instagram in a lot of ways. It’s just, it doesn’t have the functionality. It doesn’t have the culture. It doesn’t have the user base. It doesn’t have the broad— I mean, so much of what made TikTok successful is that it also allowed you to interact with people around the globe. There’s such a global user base to TikTok. And that just doesn’t exist on a lot of these other platforms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. I mean, we’re not finding that on Reels. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, definitely not. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All I’m getting on Reels are weird raw milk ads. So I’m kind of giving up there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Reels is a cursed, cursed ecosystem and nothing like TikTok. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a lot of talk about whether creators can keep getting paid now that the ban is supposed to be in effect. If not for politics, do you think a change in monetization will actually drive creators away? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the inability for a lot of creators to monetize is what ultimately will also force them off the platform because there is just no way to make a living. Brands have already pulled all their money out. I mean, unfortunately, the campaign against TikTok has been so successful. It just has financially devastated the app and the ecosystem on there in ways that I think will be very difficult to recover from, even if Congress was to reverse the ban, which they’re not going to do. Right now, it’s impossible for these creators to replicate what they’re doing, which is progressive activism on other apps because other apps are so incredibly hostile to that style of content. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They also just don’t have that kind of built-in back and forth functionality that TikTok has. I’ve seen a lot of people on TikTok talk about how much of a struggle it is to move to YouTube because you’re suddenly talking to a wall instead of… Yeah, exactly. You’re not talking directly to your audience anymore. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. YouTube is so radically different. YouTube Shorts is nothing like TikTok at all. It’s nothing like TikTok. It is a broadcast medium. It’s very one way. There’s no discourse. There’s no interactivity. There’s no communities that form around there. It’s just a place to put clips to long-form videos. That’s so different than TikTok, which again, I think people need to understand is like a mobile video version of Twitter in terms of how you can interact, reshare, build on content and leverage mass virality. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The ban is currently in a holding pattern set to actually take effect sometime this spring, depending on whether the president delays it again. There is an alternative to a full-on ban on TikTok. That’s a new tab. TikTok forced sale. When Congress passed the law last year, they offered a choice to TikTok’s parent company, ByteDance: sell TikTok to another party or we’ll ban the app. That law was just upheld by the Supreme Court in January. But so far, there aren’t a lot of serious candidates. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lots of people are claiming to buy TikTok for clout, which you mentioned in your newsletter. Like you have Mr. Beast. You have the very controversial streaming platform Kik. And Trump floated the idea of a 50-50 partnership between ByteDance and an American company. But how would the sale of TikTok change the culture of the app? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok is a global tech platform. Imagine if suddenly Romania was like, “Hey, Ford Motor Company, you can’t sell your cars here until you sell the entire company to us.” I mean, America is not even TikTok’s biggest market. Also, it’s just unclear how it would even happen because TikTok would be creating a local product that then competes with their global product. Basically, they would have to create a separate version of TikTok. At that point, it’s just Triller or some other app that’s not TikTok. They’ll call it TikTok, but it won’t be TikTok. They’ll take that skin and create a separate app. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, it’s just about censoring speech, because we have tons of Chinese social media apps. We have tons of Chinese investments. We have tons of Chinese platforms that people use on a daily basis. We have platforms like Temu and Shein that collect far more sensitive user data than TikTok and that are actually based in China, unlike TikTok, where TikTok is not based in China and user data is not stored in China. So, it’s just a farce. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There is a vibe shift on TikTok. Even if it’s not some sort of intentional grand conspiracy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I totally agree, yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you think is really behind it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, look, I think the ban is behind it. I think TikTok was banned. The effect that that ban has had, even though it’s been temporarily reinstated… tons of people deleted the app. You’ve also seen a flood of right-wingers leaning really hard into the app because, again, they feel like it’s pro-Trump. I think the app is in peril. It’s not the app that it was even six months ago. It’s under such a microscope that I do think that their enforcement team has stepped up a little bit against certain types of speech. I don’t know. Again, we don’t know that they’re censoring more, but I do think that it might be reasonable to assume that because they’re under a microscope, they’re taking reports of wrongdoing seriously. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think a lot of it is also just not even TikTok. It’s just the vibe shift in America, right? There is a cultural vibe shift that’s happened as Trump has taken his second term, right? And you’re seeing the normalization of online hate, of people saying slurs openly again. You’re seeing a lot of hatred towards immigrants, people of color, normalized. Again, there is no resistance movement the way that there was in 2017. So culturally, I think Trumpism has won right now, and that is the world that we’re living in. And yes, that is going to make all of these platforms sort of feel different. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, last question. What would an internet without TikTok really look like? What would that mean for the way people interact with each other and also access information? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taylor Lorenz:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">An internet without TikTok is an internet where people are a lot less informed. You have a less informed public. As I’ve written, TikTok has been an essential way that young people, especially get news and information. As Twitter has been dismantled as a news source, that entire ecosystem of access to information about wars, climate disasters, whatever, the LA fires, it’s all moved to TikTok. So TikTok is where people are getting information. It’s where people are learning about social justice issues. It’s where people are, again, doing activism. When that is shut down, you’ll have a less informed public. You’ll have a less free public. I think it’s increasingly harder for people to get their voice out and speak open and freely on the internet. TikTok gave people the ability to have a platform, reach people en masse, and do real activism. And so, yeah, we’re going to have a lot less freedoms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So even if TikTok is back online, like Taylor mentioned, what’s it going to feel like going forward? This was a place that served as a news source, a trend accelerator, and a platform for activism and protest. Clearly, it’s no longer the same. As TikTok and other social media platforms continue to censor content, especially progressive speech, we have to wonder, will online freedom of speech become obsolete? Will there be any platform for content creators of all political leanings to have a voice? Okay, that’s a deep dive for another day. Before we spiral right now, let’s close these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan Sung\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Our Producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts and helps edit the show. Original music and sound design by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. Mixing and mastering by Brendan Willard. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad and Alana Walker. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager and Holly Kernan is our Chief Content Officer. Support for this program comes from Birong Hu and supporters of the KQED Studios Fund. Some members of the KQED Podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. If you have any feedback or a topic you think we should cover, hit us up at CloseAllTabs at KQED.org. Follow us on Instagram at CloseAllTabsPod. And if you’re enjoying the show, give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you use. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>This episode was originally published November 2, 2024. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode of Close All Tabs, host Morgan Sung examines the increasing power of social media influencers in politics. Joined by WIRED senior tech and politics writer Makena Kelly, Morgan dives into the growing tensions between influencers and traditional journalists and explores how “shadow money” is quietly flowing to influencers for political endorsements, keeping the public in the dark about who’s funding content.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC5452611238\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, guys, I know we’re deep in fall now. We’re putting away the Halloween pumpkins, it’s getting a little chilly. And Election Day is right around the corner. But let me take you back to this summer. To the Democratic National Convention. It’s a chance for Democrats to seize the moment and present a fresh version of the party, under the leadership of for the first time in history, a woman of color. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>DNC: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We are honored to be a part of American history as we gavel in this convention and celebrate this historic nomination. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in addition to the traditional press that’s covered the convention for more than 100 years, is this fresh class of media: Influencers. With just portable ring lights, tiny mics and their iPhones. They are content machines. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Jose Rolon:: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I can’t believe we’re on the ground floor at the DNC right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Sassy confetti: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And now I’m on. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Sassy confetti: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">my way to\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Sassy confetti: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">United Center for the Convention tonight. Also, every Secret Service guy is so hot.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were given media credentials and access that was pretty similar to what the traditional press was given. In addition to a few more perks like, a dedicated filming space, a creator’s lounge. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Makena Kelly: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And on the first day there was a yacht party for that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Makena Kelly is a senior writer at Wired who covers tech policy. She also covered the yacht party that the DNC threw for creators, as well as the “Hotties for Harris” after party, also for creators. And throughout the convention, she reported on this new dynamic of creator media in politics. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Makena Kelly: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There is something that the DNC called the blue carpet, which is where, you know, the influencers were able to schedule time with different, you know, surrogates for Kamala and interview them. And then throughout the week, you know, they had access to the same buildings that I did as a reporter. The one thing I was incredibly jealous of with them having the the lounges was that they had places to plug in their computer, which was like my biggest struggle. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All this access for social media creators did not come without controversy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would love to talk about whether or not there were tensions between the traditional press and the creators that were in vited to the DNC? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jose Rolon: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Girl. I don’t know what you’re talking about. Yeah, it was, look, it was… there was some tension. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Jose Rolon. He is a wedding planner and TikTok creator who goes by NYC Gay Dad online. And he was one of the 200 creators invited to the DNC this year. He says that some claims about the perks that creators got were exaggerated. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jose Rolon: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve been to things that are just way over the top with ice sculptures and people swinging from the ceilings and there’s caviar and all of these things, you know? This wasn’t it at all. Look, it was nice. It was like a room. There was some hot dogs, maybe some chips. And then there was, like, bins of sodas for you to have, right? But I think the stuff that was written about that there was this over-the-top elaborate steak and all this other stuff, like none of that existed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jose also says there is tension up in the high balcony levels of the United Center. That’s the stadium where the DNC was held. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jose Rolon: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What ended up happening is that there just didn’t seem like to be a lot of enough seats for everybody. But we put our seats, our stuff down, and then we went ahead to film stuff to do a lot of content. And then when we came back, our stuff was gone. Like, my bag was gone. Some of my equipment was gone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh No. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jose Rolon: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there were people that were in our seats. What was happening is people the staff at United were taking some of that stuff and just putting it away into lost and found. And then the press was sitting there and and perhaps vice versa was happening. I’m not a journalist. I would never want to be a journalist. It’s a hard job. It’s I love being a wedding planner. I love doing content creation. I do love talking about this election. But there is a way that both can coexist very easily. And like as content creators, we were leaning on them to help us and to educate us. And they were looking at us like we were just these imbeciles. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Influencers at the DNC racked up a combined 350 million views across social media over the 40 long convention. That’s more than four times the amount of viewers that tuned in to watch it on TV. Both traditional news media and creators are vying for the same space, not just physically at the DNC, but also on the internet and the larger information ecosystem. And although creators who were invited to the DNC weren’t paid to be there, this new industry of political influencer marketing is flush with cash. So what are the rules in this new world of political media? Are there any? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close all Tabs, a special series from KQED. I’m Morgan Sung. I’m a tech journalist. You’re chronically online friend, and your guide to the weirdest and most fascinating corners of the internet. Together, we’re diving into election memes, disinformation campaigns, political influencers, and we’ll open as many browser tabs as it takes, all to better understand how the digital world affects our real lives. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To start, we need to talk about how influencers became so important to politicians. Let’s get into it. Time to open a new tab. The White House Influencer Army. Back in 2021, the Biden administration recruited influencers as part of a public health initiative to fight misinformation and get the word out about the new Covid vaccine. They got TikTok creators, twitch streamers, YouTubers who posted selfies with their vaccine cards and made informational videos. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Makena Kelly: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When Covid happened and everyone was inside and was nearly impossible to do, traditional politicking and doing traditional things that you would do for an election, they started building out this vast influencer network and they took that with them into the White House. And, you know, some of these people are kind of like journalists who like do news online. And some of them, you know, we recognize them as like Harry Daniels, who just, you know, sings to people randomly and goes viral for that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Harry Daniels: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">President Obama, can I sing for you? … We are the new Americana\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And since then, creator outreach has been a key part of the administration’s digital strategy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Makena Kelly: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The internet has changed tremendously just in the last four years. Like even four years ago, I think you were able to send out a tweet as a campaign and everyone would see it. But now, you know, if they want to find these same groups of people like young people or people interested in abortion rights and stuff, the easiest way to do it is find a creator who’s focused on it and whose audience is like deeply engage with that topic. And I think that’s been the main goal of the White House when it comes to approaching influencers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2022, the administration started inviting specific influencers to special White House briefings like on the war in Ukraine, and when the Inflation Reduction Act passed. Last year, the White House kicked it up a notch and debuted a dedicated briefing space on Zoom again, unpaid. It’s kind of like a virtual press briefing room specifically for influencers. And then earlier this year, the White House hosted its first creator economy conference to talk about A.I. privacy and the power of influence. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Joe Biden: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Look, my staff tells me that the creative economy is valued at $250 billion. But you breakthrough. You breakthrough in ways that I think are going to change the entire dynamic of the way in which we communicate. And that’s why I invited you to the White House because I’m looking for a job. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That $250 billion valuation that President Biden referred to? It’s expected to double by 2027, according to research from Goldman Sachs. And when it comes to marketing, creators are incredibly valuable, not just because of the number of followers they have, but also for the relationships they foster with their followers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Makena Kelly: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you have this kind of, you know, pseudo parasocial relationship with this person online, you may be more likely to go out, register to vote, vote for someone in specific. You know, the Biden campaign might try and put an ad in front of your YouTube video, but that’s not going to get you to sign up to vote, right? Whereas someone like maybe Hasan Piker, who has this dedicated fan base. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Piker is a political commentator and streamer popular with young people. McKenna explains he has more than just a dedicated fan base. It’s also his community. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Makena Kelly: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the community aspect is really important with a lot of these creators where these people are interacting together all the time. They’re in discords. They’re holding each other accountable for things. You know, they’re encouraging others to do things. And so I think it is, you know, really powerful. And that’s where all the money is going. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How effective is creator marketing when it comes to politics? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Makena Kelly: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, if you talk to donors, PACs, campaigns, it’s necessary at this point. There’s a growing cottage industry of um political start ups, at least in the Democratic tech space of building political influencer management companies having these direct connections to the White House and bringing these people on specifically because they’re going to make these connections with, um, you know, D.C. politicians, etc.. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With the DNC and the White House, those creator events and partnerships are, for the most part, unpaid. But through this growing cottage industry that Makena mentioned, there is a lot of money flowing through D.C. to influencers. How does this process work, exactly? And is there anyone in charge of reining it in? New tab. Political Influencer Marketing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Both the right and the left employ influencer marketing. An earlier example is back in 2020, when Mike Bloomberg ran for president and paid meme accounts on Instagram to give his campaign some clout. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>CBS San Diego: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Several are made to look like a direct message conversation between Bloomberg and social media influencers. In one, he asks for help to make him look cool for the Democratic primary. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And their posts included captions that said “Paid for by Mike Bloomberg”, which definitely did not make him look cool. They did post in support of him, but it backfired. Spectacularly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Kapwing meme review: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The only comment you see is, “There’s still time to delete this,” with over 4,000 likes. Kind of gives you a pulse on the community reaction to these meme pages taking money from a presidential candidate. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Political influencer marketing has matured a lot since then. By the midterm elections in 2022, we saw a lot more sponsored political content from influencers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Makena Kelly: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do think the thing that’s changing now is incorporating that message into the content that these people are already creating and making it almost seamless, making it feel, you know, as it’s just part of their platform instead of something that’s being injected into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The majority of these partnerships are through influencer agencies. These agencies already have connections both in the political world and in this rapidly growing creator economy. They’re basically a middleman between PAC’s – political action committees – and creators. Makena says in some ways, it’s not that different from how any brand partners with influencers. So if a makeup brand wants a beauty influencer to review their latest lip gloss, they’ll probably start by reaching out to an agency which will connect them with an influencer. They’ll negotiate a rate and number of posts like one Instagram post, one 2-minute TikTok, and a shoppable link to the product in their post. And once they’re posted, with a hashtag or caption indicating it’s a sponsored post, the influencer gets paid. But there is a key difference with political marketing. They do not have to disclose that it’s an ad! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Makena Kelly: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you know, as compared to like the FTC and having to regulate, you know, having hashtag ad or ad place somewhere sponsored, whatever, in some social media posts, there are no rules from the FEC, whatever, to disclose that. I hate this term, but it is still very much like the Wild West. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Federal Trade Commission, F-T-C, requires anyone who posts online to disclose when their content is paid for by a sponsor or advertiser. But the Federal Election Commission, that’s F-E-C, who’s in charge of enforcing campaign finance laws, does not have the same rules. Last year, the FEC ruled that influencers or political organizations only have to disclose that they were paid to post their content in one specific situation. That’s if they paid a social media platform to promote it. So, for example, when you post on Instagram from a business account, you can pay a fee to boost the post so more people see it. That’s the only time you have to disclose sponsored political content. But if you’re just posting to your own channel, to your own audience, and not paying for that extra boost in views, you don’t have to tell anyone that you’re essentially posting a political ad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Makena Kelly: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is a bit of a black box. You wish that at the end of a video on TikTok, if someone is working with a campaign or something, they would say “this video was sponsored by” like we see on TV or on radio, right? Where this was paid for by the Trump campaign. But that’s not happening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some of these organizations do require influencers as part of their contract to disclose that the posts are paid. The biggest Democratic super PAC is Priorities USA. They launched a creator partnership program earlier this year, and influencers that work with them have to include the hashtag “Priorities Partner” in any sponsored post. But a lot of these deals fly under the radar. Like last year, when Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton faced impeachment, there was this influx of Gen-z influencers suddenly rallying behind him online. This was not organic support. It was content paid for by a company called Influenceable – they recruit young conservative influencers to spread right wing talking points. The post about Paxton, who was acquitted, didn’t disclose that they were ads. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s not just American super PACs working with these agencies. Anyone with enough money can partner with them. You may have heard of a company called Tenet Media in the headlines recently. The company was a sort of right wing influencer super group that included pretty big names like Tim Poole and Benny Johnson. Their content followed typical far right talking points — complaining about illegal immigrants and critical race theory and trans rights — that kind of thing. But they were also oddly fixated on Ukraine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Tim Poole: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ukraine is our enemy being funded by the Democrats. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, Tenet media wasn’t pushing these ideas for free. According to a federal indictment, they received $9.7 million from Russia today, the news network backed by the Russian government. Tenant media posted hundreds of videos that the Department of Justice says were, quote, often consistent with a government of Russia’s interest in amplifying U.S. domestic divisions, end quote. Look, we as humans love sensationalized content. It keeps us hooked. And it’s very easy to take advantage of that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dr. Jo Lukito: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Specifically because of this idea of what’s called push and pull media. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dr. Joe Lukito is an assistant professor at the University of Texas at Austin. Her research focuses on political communication and disinformation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dr. Jo Lukito: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So when we talk about pull media, it’s when you actively seek out a media or a piece of medium. So say like you’re going on Netflix and you want to watch a TV show, you make a very conscious decision to seek out what you’re looking for. That’s really different from our social media algorithms today, which tend to be push media. So rather than us seeking out that information, that content is served to us through some sort of social media algorithm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like the way that TikTok’s For You Page just feeds you videos in this endless scroll. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dr. Jo Lukito: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this is by design. Social media platforms want you to stay on their platform. So they will introduce you to new influencers and new content that they think you might like but not necessarily know about yet. And so if we have these social media algorithms that are specifically geared towards keeping us on the platform and propagandists or disinformation actors know that they can leverage or exploit these social media algorithms to advance sensationalized disinformation. What we get is this really tricky cycle where disinformation actors or propagandists are using and leveraging influencers to promote highly sensationalized pieces of disinformation that then reach this large influencer audience. And so what we see is that these propagandists are both taking advantage of the social media algorithm, as well as the influencer industry, and the combination of those two contributes to why we see so much of this political misinformation and disinformation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, well, if anyone can swoop in and pay influencers to spread messaging that, you know, weakens our very concept of democracy, then why aren’t political ad disclosures required? I mean, this seems very dire! We’ll open a new tab on that after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. New Tab. F-E-C Influencer Political Ads. Remember, you only have to disclose political sponsorships online if you paid the social media platform to show it to more people. The F-E-C is in charge of political advertising while the F-T-C regulates any consumer ads. But what’s the difference between the two? Why does it even matter? To get into this, I called Dara Lindenbaum, who’s been an FEC commissioner since 2022. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dara Lindenbaum: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, there are a few big differences and number one would be the First Amendment and how the First Amendment controls and really restricts our ability to regulate political speech. So that’s really the big one. And that’s the big thing that we all operate under when we try to regulate here, we have to make sure we’re not violating the First Amendment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lindenbaum says there is potential for stricter regulations. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dara Lindenbaum: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I absolutely have a huge concern about, you know, foreign influence. I’m also absolutely concerned about the First Amendment and not creating a system where, you know, people cannot express themselves the way they’re constitutionally allowed to do it. But again, I think it is an area that we can absolutely regulate in. When somebody is being paid to do something, that is an area that we can regulate in here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But when it comes to dealing with social media ads, Lindenbaum says the FEC’s power is limited. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dara Lindenbaum: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We can only act based on what Congress tells us we can act. So they create the laws, and then tell us to go create the regulations that implement those laws. And right now there isn’t an agreement, I would say, that the regulations control what influencers do here when they are putting out content on their own channels without promoting it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you think that the FEC will revisit this issue in the near future? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dara Lindenbaum: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t think it’ll do it on its own. I’m not sure. I think it will depend on Congress. I don’t think there’s a big appetite to, you know, push this into and have, you know, essentially a stalemate with limited resources, um, without thinking this through and without a push from Congress. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The FEC decided back in December last year that they wouldn’t touch sponsored influencer content. And when they made that decision, two commissioners actually published a letter criticizing their own agency for not taking a stronger stance. They said that the problem isn’t that influencers are taking these paid deals — it’s that the public doesn’t know. And since influencers are already familiar with sponsored content roles, requiring the same rules for political posts wouldn’t be very different for them. In fact, some states are already taking action on this. California passed a law last year that requires people to disclose, but only when it comes to content about specific candidates or ballot measures. The Texas Ethics Commission just ruled that influencers have to tell followers if they are paid to make any kind of political statement. But there’s one more wrinkle here, if we just zoom out a little bit more. The power to actually enforce regulatory laws like this has been weakened by a Supreme Court ruling from earlier this year. For the last 40 years, federal agencies had a lot more power when it came to interpreting laws and deciding how to enforce them. There’s this legal doctrine called Chevron deference – it comes from a 1984 Supreme Court case. And it basically says that, if Congress passes a law and any part of it is unclear, agencies fill in the gap and interpret what Congress meant, not judges. The idea is that agencies are experts in very specific fields. It’s like how the Environmental Protection Agency would know more about the minutiae of air pollution particles than a federal judge would. And when it comes to policy making, Congress doesn’t always have the time or expertise to deal with every single detail and legal question. So they delegate to agencies to figure that out. Chevron deference gave agencies a lot of room to create and implement rules without the court stopping them from making policy choices. Well, the Supreme Court killed Chevron deference this year. And in overturning that 1984 decision, they stripped federal agencies of a lot of their rulemaking power. But while the government works out, keeping this industry in check falls on social media companies. So what are they doing about this? That’s a new tab. Social Media Political Ad Rules. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Every social media platform has completely different policies when it comes to political ads. And because of that, Dr. Lukito says it’s even harder to regulate the space and keep track of advertisers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dr. Jo Lukito: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is not a decision I think we should be leaving up to social media platforms, especially in a media ecology that has so many social media platforms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">YouTube and Meta, which owns Instagram and Facebook, allow political ads. Meta actually has specific roles for political brand deals now, thanks to that whole Mike Bloomberg fiasco. X, or Twitter, as many people still call it, actually lifted its ban on political advertising when Elon Musk took over. However, the site still bans political paid partnerships – those deals with influencers. TikTok and Twitch – the platform for streamers – ban political ads completely. But there are a few issues. Even the most well-intentioned rules around political sponsored content aren’t 100% enforceable. Twitch and TikTok both have very robust moderation, but banned content gets through all the time. These social media platforms will take down posts that don’t properly disclose that they’re ads, but users usually have to report it first. And moderating on this case by case basis is not very efficient. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dr. Jo Lukito: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it also doesn’t stop these disinformation actors or unwitting political influencers from pushing that content on another platform that does not have those regulations, right? And so it creates both this sort of inconsistency, but even worse, this lack of transparency, so that when platforms are doing this sort of regulation, we can’t assess whether they’re doing a good job or not because we, how are we to know if there’s no transparency? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dr. Lukito says that Metta actually does something that should be the standard on social media. It’s their ad library. Anyone who purchases ads on Instagram or Facebook has to register with this publicly available archive, which shows who paid for the ad, how many people saw it, and how much they spent on it. Meta is actually pretty transparent when it comes to dealing with content that isn’t allowed on their platforms like violence or nudity. And Dr. Lukito says that all platforms should be just as diligent and transparent about political content. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dr. Jo Lukito: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Not just transparency around what those regulations are, those content moderation regulations, but transparency in terms of how those decisions are being made. And that’s true broadly about internet communication, right? So Facebook, for example, has like an oversight committee that makes decisions on when certain types of content gets removed or not. We also see these large social media platforms have uh some sort of explanation for how they moderate content, whether it’s coming from content moderators they hire or flags that are coming from users. And I would really like to see that level of transparency, not just be applied to porn or violent content, but also be applied to political content, right? It’s not just about regulating it, but having transparency so that any citizen can go on Facebook or go on a TikTok website or page and just learn like, here’s what the regulations are, here are the specific steps in which we, you know, regulate and remove political content if that’s what they do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Will these companies actually make an effort to be more transparent, though? Who knows. Unless it directly benefits them financially, they don’t exactly have an incentive to be better. Okay, let’s bring it back to where we started – all that drama that was brewing between traditional “journalists” and content creators. For one thing, the total lack of regulation and transparency in the influencer world, definitely contributes to that friction. And there’s a big difference in norms between the two worlds. The journalism industry has a system of editors and fact checking processes and editorial standards that keeps reporters in check. Granted, it’s not always perfect. Newsrooms make mistakes all the time. But it’s still more support than when a lot of influencers who make political content have. They may have a manager or agency handling their brand deals, and maybe some assistance when it comes to putting their videos together, but there’s no real industry standard for content the way that there is with journalism. And without any rules from the FEC, what they post– and disclose — is really on the creator’s personal standard. Still, people in both groups are starting to acknowledge that there is a lot they can learn from each other. Like Jose, the wedding planner who we heard from at the very beginning of this deep dive. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jose Rolon: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think sometimes when politicians, when they see you and they’re automatically on the defense and they’re ready, they’re ready to give you a scripted response. But when it feels like someone that is relatable, I think their guard down is a little bit more and they’re more willing to just open up and really share from something that actually feels a little bit more personal versus than, you know, any of the scripted response. Look, I think you saw that some of the creators were not shy about asking about the war in Gaza and Palestine. I think for them to not be shy and ask them really difficult questions, whether if it was this or, you know, other hot topics around reproductive rights and so many other things that are really hot buttons right now, it was really wonderful and beautiful to see. I think there’s still this misconception with creators. We’re just a bunch of goofball dancers or, you know, our stuff doesn’t really matter. Like, there’s so many ways we can help journalists, just like, you know, there’s ways that, you know, they can help us too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as Wired reporter Makena points out, journalists can’t necessarily share political opinions the way that creators do, but they can show more of themselves online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Makena Kelly: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What I like to say is that, I think what creators have taught journalists is that we need to be more than just like black and white text on a, you know, byline. If we want to be able to earn that trust back that I think voters now have replaced oftentimes with news and political creators, then we have to show more of ourselves and more of our process and take readers along for that ride in a similar way, whether that’s writing, you know, a newsletter or doing TikTok or whatever works for you, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I know this all sounds pretty bleak. The absence of government regulations, or individual social media site rules, or leaning on each creator’s personal conviction. But Makena reminded me of something that’s a small comfort in this Wild West of the internet. There is one more force keeping creators accountable when it comes to any kind of content. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Makena Kelly: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know the one thing that’s regulating this space and this is what it’s been like online forever, uh, is communities. It’s communities of people holding other creators accountable. These creators get into little spats, there’s all this drama, they sicc, you know, each other’s followings against each other. And that seems to be like one of the biggest ways that change happens in the communities when it comes to disclosures and things like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, obviously, a system of online communities demanding transparency from the creators they follow, doesn’t compare to actual regulations or effective moderating. But it is a start. Influencers tend to be pretty open to listening to their followers. And it’s bigger than just public shaming. These call out posts and community spats actually do, sometimes, foster change. Like when drama among streamers led to the crackdown on gambling content online. But that’s a deep dive for another day. For now, let’s close all tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Close All Tabs\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. Our managing producer is Chris Egusa. Our producer is Maya Cueva. Jen Chien edited the series and is KQED’s director of podcasts.Original music and sound design by Chris Egusa. Additional music from APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad]. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager. Holly Kernan is our Chief Content Officer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A special shout out to the team at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Political Breakdown\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> for letting us share our episodes on their feed. And special thanks to founding producer Xorje Olivares. We’d love to hear what you think about the series! Hit us up at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:podcasts@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">podcasts@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, that’s podcasts with an “s.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>This episode was originally published November 2, 2024. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode of Close All Tabs, host Morgan Sung examines the increasing power of social media influencers in politics. Joined by WIRED senior tech and politics writer Makena Kelly, Morgan dives into the growing tensions between influencers and traditional journalists and explores how “shadow money” is quietly flowing to influencers for political endorsements, keeping the public in the dark about who’s funding content.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC5452611238\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, guys, I know we’re deep in fall now. We’re putting away the Halloween pumpkins, it’s getting a little chilly. And Election Day is right around the corner. But let me take you back to this summer. To the Democratic National Convention. It’s a chance for Democrats to seize the moment and present a fresh version of the party, under the leadership of for the first time in history, a woman of color. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>DNC: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We are honored to be a part of American history as we gavel in this convention and celebrate this historic nomination. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in addition to the traditional press that’s covered the convention for more than 100 years, is this fresh class of media: Influencers. With just portable ring lights, tiny mics and their iPhones. They are content machines. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Jose Rolon:: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I can’t believe we’re on the ground floor at the DNC right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Sassy confetti: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And now I’m on. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Sassy confetti: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">my way to\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Sassy confetti: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">United Center for the Convention tonight. Also, every Secret Service guy is so hot.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were given media credentials and access that was pretty similar to what the traditional press was given. In addition to a few more perks like, a dedicated filming space, a creator’s lounge. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Makena Kelly: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And on the first day there was a yacht party for that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Makena Kelly is a senior writer at Wired who covers tech policy. She also covered the yacht party that the DNC threw for creators, as well as the “Hotties for Harris” after party, also for creators. And throughout the convention, she reported on this new dynamic of creator media in politics. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Makena Kelly: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There is something that the DNC called the blue carpet, which is where, you know, the influencers were able to schedule time with different, you know, surrogates for Kamala and interview them. And then throughout the week, you know, they had access to the same buildings that I did as a reporter. The one thing I was incredibly jealous of with them having the the lounges was that they had places to plug in their computer, which was like my biggest struggle. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All this access for social media creators did not come without controversy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would love to talk about whether or not there were tensions between the traditional press and the creators that were in vited to the DNC? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jose Rolon: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Girl. I don’t know what you’re talking about. Yeah, it was, look, it was… there was some tension. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Jose Rolon. He is a wedding planner and TikTok creator who goes by NYC Gay Dad online. And he was one of the 200 creators invited to the DNC this year. He says that some claims about the perks that creators got were exaggerated. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jose Rolon: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve been to things that are just way over the top with ice sculptures and people swinging from the ceilings and there’s caviar and all of these things, you know? This wasn’t it at all. Look, it was nice. It was like a room. There was some hot dogs, maybe some chips. And then there was, like, bins of sodas for you to have, right? But I think the stuff that was written about that there was this over-the-top elaborate steak and all this other stuff, like none of that existed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jose also says there is tension up in the high balcony levels of the United Center. That’s the stadium where the DNC was held. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jose Rolon: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What ended up happening is that there just didn’t seem like to be a lot of enough seats for everybody. But we put our seats, our stuff down, and then we went ahead to film stuff to do a lot of content. And then when we came back, our stuff was gone. Like, my bag was gone. Some of my equipment was gone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh No. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jose Rolon: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there were people that were in our seats. What was happening is people the staff at United were taking some of that stuff and just putting it away into lost and found. And then the press was sitting there and and perhaps vice versa was happening. I’m not a journalist. I would never want to be a journalist. It’s a hard job. It’s I love being a wedding planner. I love doing content creation. I do love talking about this election. But there is a way that both can coexist very easily. And like as content creators, we were leaning on them to help us and to educate us. And they were looking at us like we were just these imbeciles. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Influencers at the DNC racked up a combined 350 million views across social media over the 40 long convention. That’s more than four times the amount of viewers that tuned in to watch it on TV. Both traditional news media and creators are vying for the same space, not just physically at the DNC, but also on the internet and the larger information ecosystem. And although creators who were invited to the DNC weren’t paid to be there, this new industry of political influencer marketing is flush with cash. So what are the rules in this new world of political media? Are there any? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close all Tabs, a special series from KQED. I’m Morgan Sung. I’m a tech journalist. You’re chronically online friend, and your guide to the weirdest and most fascinating corners of the internet. Together, we’re diving into election memes, disinformation campaigns, political influencers, and we’ll open as many browser tabs as it takes, all to better understand how the digital world affects our real lives. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To start, we need to talk about how influencers became so important to politicians. Let’s get into it. Time to open a new tab. The White House Influencer Army. Back in 2021, the Biden administration recruited influencers as part of a public health initiative to fight misinformation and get the word out about the new Covid vaccine. They got TikTok creators, twitch streamers, YouTubers who posted selfies with their vaccine cards and made informational videos. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Makena Kelly: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When Covid happened and everyone was inside and was nearly impossible to do, traditional politicking and doing traditional things that you would do for an election, they started building out this vast influencer network and they took that with them into the White House. And, you know, some of these people are kind of like journalists who like do news online. And some of them, you know, we recognize them as like Harry Daniels, who just, you know, sings to people randomly and goes viral for that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Harry Daniels: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">President Obama, can I sing for you? … We are the new Americana\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And since then, creator outreach has been a key part of the administration’s digital strategy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Makena Kelly: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The internet has changed tremendously just in the last four years. Like even four years ago, I think you were able to send out a tweet as a campaign and everyone would see it. But now, you know, if they want to find these same groups of people like young people or people interested in abortion rights and stuff, the easiest way to do it is find a creator who’s focused on it and whose audience is like deeply engage with that topic. And I think that’s been the main goal of the White House when it comes to approaching influencers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2022, the administration started inviting specific influencers to special White House briefings like on the war in Ukraine, and when the Inflation Reduction Act passed. Last year, the White House kicked it up a notch and debuted a dedicated briefing space on Zoom again, unpaid. It’s kind of like a virtual press briefing room specifically for influencers. And then earlier this year, the White House hosted its first creator economy conference to talk about A.I. privacy and the power of influence. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Joe Biden: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Look, my staff tells me that the creative economy is valued at $250 billion. But you breakthrough. You breakthrough in ways that I think are going to change the entire dynamic of the way in which we communicate. And that’s why I invited you to the White House because I’m looking for a job. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That $250 billion valuation that President Biden referred to? It’s expected to double by 2027, according to research from Goldman Sachs. And when it comes to marketing, creators are incredibly valuable, not just because of the number of followers they have, but also for the relationships they foster with their followers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Makena Kelly: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you have this kind of, you know, pseudo parasocial relationship with this person online, you may be more likely to go out, register to vote, vote for someone in specific. You know, the Biden campaign might try and put an ad in front of your YouTube video, but that’s not going to get you to sign up to vote, right? Whereas someone like maybe Hasan Piker, who has this dedicated fan base. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Piker is a political commentator and streamer popular with young people. McKenna explains he has more than just a dedicated fan base. It’s also his community. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Makena Kelly: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the community aspect is really important with a lot of these creators where these people are interacting together all the time. They’re in discords. They’re holding each other accountable for things. You know, they’re encouraging others to do things. And so I think it is, you know, really powerful. And that’s where all the money is going. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How effective is creator marketing when it comes to politics? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Makena Kelly: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, if you talk to donors, PACs, campaigns, it’s necessary at this point. There’s a growing cottage industry of um political start ups, at least in the Democratic tech space of building political influencer management companies having these direct connections to the White House and bringing these people on specifically because they’re going to make these connections with, um, you know, D.C. politicians, etc.. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With the DNC and the White House, those creator events and partnerships are, for the most part, unpaid. But through this growing cottage industry that Makena mentioned, there is a lot of money flowing through D.C. to influencers. How does this process work, exactly? And is there anyone in charge of reining it in? New tab. Political Influencer Marketing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Both the right and the left employ influencer marketing. An earlier example is back in 2020, when Mike Bloomberg ran for president and paid meme accounts on Instagram to give his campaign some clout. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>CBS San Diego: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Several are made to look like a direct message conversation between Bloomberg and social media influencers. In one, he asks for help to make him look cool for the Democratic primary. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And their posts included captions that said “Paid for by Mike Bloomberg”, which definitely did not make him look cool. They did post in support of him, but it backfired. Spectacularly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Kapwing meme review: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The only comment you see is, “There’s still time to delete this,” with over 4,000 likes. Kind of gives you a pulse on the community reaction to these meme pages taking money from a presidential candidate. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Political influencer marketing has matured a lot since then. By the midterm elections in 2022, we saw a lot more sponsored political content from influencers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Makena Kelly: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do think the thing that’s changing now is incorporating that message into the content that these people are already creating and making it almost seamless, making it feel, you know, as it’s just part of their platform instead of something that’s being injected into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The majority of these partnerships are through influencer agencies. These agencies already have connections both in the political world and in this rapidly growing creator economy. They’re basically a middleman between PAC’s – political action committees – and creators. Makena says in some ways, it’s not that different from how any brand partners with influencers. So if a makeup brand wants a beauty influencer to review their latest lip gloss, they’ll probably start by reaching out to an agency which will connect them with an influencer. They’ll negotiate a rate and number of posts like one Instagram post, one 2-minute TikTok, and a shoppable link to the product in their post. And once they’re posted, with a hashtag or caption indicating it’s a sponsored post, the influencer gets paid. But there is a key difference with political marketing. They do not have to disclose that it’s an ad! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Makena Kelly: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you know, as compared to like the FTC and having to regulate, you know, having hashtag ad or ad place somewhere sponsored, whatever, in some social media posts, there are no rules from the FEC, whatever, to disclose that. I hate this term, but it is still very much like the Wild West. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Federal Trade Commission, F-T-C, requires anyone who posts online to disclose when their content is paid for by a sponsor or advertiser. But the Federal Election Commission, that’s F-E-C, who’s in charge of enforcing campaign finance laws, does not have the same rules. Last year, the FEC ruled that influencers or political organizations only have to disclose that they were paid to post their content in one specific situation. That’s if they paid a social media platform to promote it. So, for example, when you post on Instagram from a business account, you can pay a fee to boost the post so more people see it. That’s the only time you have to disclose sponsored political content. But if you’re just posting to your own channel, to your own audience, and not paying for that extra boost in views, you don’t have to tell anyone that you’re essentially posting a political ad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Makena Kelly: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is a bit of a black box. You wish that at the end of a video on TikTok, if someone is working with a campaign or something, they would say “this video was sponsored by” like we see on TV or on radio, right? Where this was paid for by the Trump campaign. But that’s not happening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some of these organizations do require influencers as part of their contract to disclose that the posts are paid. The biggest Democratic super PAC is Priorities USA. They launched a creator partnership program earlier this year, and influencers that work with them have to include the hashtag “Priorities Partner” in any sponsored post. But a lot of these deals fly under the radar. Like last year, when Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton faced impeachment, there was this influx of Gen-z influencers suddenly rallying behind him online. This was not organic support. It was content paid for by a company called Influenceable – they recruit young conservative influencers to spread right wing talking points. The post about Paxton, who was acquitted, didn’t disclose that they were ads. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s not just American super PACs working with these agencies. Anyone with enough money can partner with them. You may have heard of a company called Tenet Media in the headlines recently. The company was a sort of right wing influencer super group that included pretty big names like Tim Poole and Benny Johnson. Their content followed typical far right talking points — complaining about illegal immigrants and critical race theory and trans rights — that kind of thing. But they were also oddly fixated on Ukraine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Tim Poole: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ukraine is our enemy being funded by the Democrats. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, Tenet media wasn’t pushing these ideas for free. According to a federal indictment, they received $9.7 million from Russia today, the news network backed by the Russian government. Tenant media posted hundreds of videos that the Department of Justice says were, quote, often consistent with a government of Russia’s interest in amplifying U.S. domestic divisions, end quote. Look, we as humans love sensationalized content. It keeps us hooked. And it’s very easy to take advantage of that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dr. Jo Lukito: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Specifically because of this idea of what’s called push and pull media. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dr. Joe Lukito is an assistant professor at the University of Texas at Austin. Her research focuses on political communication and disinformation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dr. Jo Lukito: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So when we talk about pull media, it’s when you actively seek out a media or a piece of medium. So say like you’re going on Netflix and you want to watch a TV show, you make a very conscious decision to seek out what you’re looking for. That’s really different from our social media algorithms today, which tend to be push media. So rather than us seeking out that information, that content is served to us through some sort of social media algorithm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like the way that TikTok’s For You Page just feeds you videos in this endless scroll. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dr. Jo Lukito: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this is by design. Social media platforms want you to stay on their platform. So they will introduce you to new influencers and new content that they think you might like but not necessarily know about yet. And so if we have these social media algorithms that are specifically geared towards keeping us on the platform and propagandists or disinformation actors know that they can leverage or exploit these social media algorithms to advance sensationalized disinformation. What we get is this really tricky cycle where disinformation actors or propagandists are using and leveraging influencers to promote highly sensationalized pieces of disinformation that then reach this large influencer audience. And so what we see is that these propagandists are both taking advantage of the social media algorithm, as well as the influencer industry, and the combination of those two contributes to why we see so much of this political misinformation and disinformation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, well, if anyone can swoop in and pay influencers to spread messaging that, you know, weakens our very concept of democracy, then why aren’t political ad disclosures required? I mean, this seems very dire! We’ll open a new tab on that after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. New Tab. F-E-C Influencer Political Ads. Remember, you only have to disclose political sponsorships online if you paid the social media platform to show it to more people. The F-E-C is in charge of political advertising while the F-T-C regulates any consumer ads. But what’s the difference between the two? Why does it even matter? To get into this, I called Dara Lindenbaum, who’s been an FEC commissioner since 2022. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dara Lindenbaum: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, there are a few big differences and number one would be the First Amendment and how the First Amendment controls and really restricts our ability to regulate political speech. So that’s really the big one. And that’s the big thing that we all operate under when we try to regulate here, we have to make sure we’re not violating the First Amendment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lindenbaum says there is potential for stricter regulations. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dara Lindenbaum: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I absolutely have a huge concern about, you know, foreign influence. I’m also absolutely concerned about the First Amendment and not creating a system where, you know, people cannot express themselves the way they’re constitutionally allowed to do it. But again, I think it is an area that we can absolutely regulate in. When somebody is being paid to do something, that is an area that we can regulate in here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But when it comes to dealing with social media ads, Lindenbaum says the FEC’s power is limited. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dara Lindenbaum: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We can only act based on what Congress tells us we can act. So they create the laws, and then tell us to go create the regulations that implement those laws. And right now there isn’t an agreement, I would say, that the regulations control what influencers do here when they are putting out content on their own channels without promoting it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you think that the FEC will revisit this issue in the near future? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dara Lindenbaum: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t think it’ll do it on its own. I’m not sure. I think it will depend on Congress. I don’t think there’s a big appetite to, you know, push this into and have, you know, essentially a stalemate with limited resources, um, without thinking this through and without a push from Congress. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The FEC decided back in December last year that they wouldn’t touch sponsored influencer content. And when they made that decision, two commissioners actually published a letter criticizing their own agency for not taking a stronger stance. They said that the problem isn’t that influencers are taking these paid deals — it’s that the public doesn’t know. And since influencers are already familiar with sponsored content roles, requiring the same rules for political posts wouldn’t be very different for them. In fact, some states are already taking action on this. California passed a law last year that requires people to disclose, but only when it comes to content about specific candidates or ballot measures. The Texas Ethics Commission just ruled that influencers have to tell followers if they are paid to make any kind of political statement. But there’s one more wrinkle here, if we just zoom out a little bit more. The power to actually enforce regulatory laws like this has been weakened by a Supreme Court ruling from earlier this year. For the last 40 years, federal agencies had a lot more power when it came to interpreting laws and deciding how to enforce them. There’s this legal doctrine called Chevron deference – it comes from a 1984 Supreme Court case. And it basically says that, if Congress passes a law and any part of it is unclear, agencies fill in the gap and interpret what Congress meant, not judges. The idea is that agencies are experts in very specific fields. It’s like how the Environmental Protection Agency would know more about the minutiae of air pollution particles than a federal judge would. And when it comes to policy making, Congress doesn’t always have the time or expertise to deal with every single detail and legal question. So they delegate to agencies to figure that out. Chevron deference gave agencies a lot of room to create and implement rules without the court stopping them from making policy choices. Well, the Supreme Court killed Chevron deference this year. And in overturning that 1984 decision, they stripped federal agencies of a lot of their rulemaking power. But while the government works out, keeping this industry in check falls on social media companies. So what are they doing about this? That’s a new tab. Social Media Political Ad Rules. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Every social media platform has completely different policies when it comes to political ads. And because of that, Dr. Lukito says it’s even harder to regulate the space and keep track of advertisers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dr. Jo Lukito: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is not a decision I think we should be leaving up to social media platforms, especially in a media ecology that has so many social media platforms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">YouTube and Meta, which owns Instagram and Facebook, allow political ads. Meta actually has specific roles for political brand deals now, thanks to that whole Mike Bloomberg fiasco. X, or Twitter, as many people still call it, actually lifted its ban on political advertising when Elon Musk took over. However, the site still bans political paid partnerships – those deals with influencers. TikTok and Twitch – the platform for streamers – ban political ads completely. But there are a few issues. Even the most well-intentioned rules around political sponsored content aren’t 100% enforceable. Twitch and TikTok both have very robust moderation, but banned content gets through all the time. These social media platforms will take down posts that don’t properly disclose that they’re ads, but users usually have to report it first. And moderating on this case by case basis is not very efficient. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dr. Jo Lukito: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it also doesn’t stop these disinformation actors or unwitting political influencers from pushing that content on another platform that does not have those regulations, right? And so it creates both this sort of inconsistency, but even worse, this lack of transparency, so that when platforms are doing this sort of regulation, we can’t assess whether they’re doing a good job or not because we, how are we to know if there’s no transparency? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dr. Lukito says that Metta actually does something that should be the standard on social media. It’s their ad library. Anyone who purchases ads on Instagram or Facebook has to register with this publicly available archive, which shows who paid for the ad, how many people saw it, and how much they spent on it. Meta is actually pretty transparent when it comes to dealing with content that isn’t allowed on their platforms like violence or nudity. And Dr. Lukito says that all platforms should be just as diligent and transparent about political content. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dr. Jo Lukito: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Not just transparency around what those regulations are, those content moderation regulations, but transparency in terms of how those decisions are being made. And that’s true broadly about internet communication, right? So Facebook, for example, has like an oversight committee that makes decisions on when certain types of content gets removed or not. We also see these large social media platforms have uh some sort of explanation for how they moderate content, whether it’s coming from content moderators they hire or flags that are coming from users. And I would really like to see that level of transparency, not just be applied to porn or violent content, but also be applied to political content, right? It’s not just about regulating it, but having transparency so that any citizen can go on Facebook or go on a TikTok website or page and just learn like, here’s what the regulations are, here are the specific steps in which we, you know, regulate and remove political content if that’s what they do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Will these companies actually make an effort to be more transparent, though? Who knows. Unless it directly benefits them financially, they don’t exactly have an incentive to be better. Okay, let’s bring it back to where we started – all that drama that was brewing between traditional “journalists” and content creators. For one thing, the total lack of regulation and transparency in the influencer world, definitely contributes to that friction. And there’s a big difference in norms between the two worlds. The journalism industry has a system of editors and fact checking processes and editorial standards that keeps reporters in check. Granted, it’s not always perfect. Newsrooms make mistakes all the time. But it’s still more support than when a lot of influencers who make political content have. They may have a manager or agency handling their brand deals, and maybe some assistance when it comes to putting their videos together, but there’s no real industry standard for content the way that there is with journalism. And without any rules from the FEC, what they post– and disclose — is really on the creator’s personal standard. Still, people in both groups are starting to acknowledge that there is a lot they can learn from each other. Like Jose, the wedding planner who we heard from at the very beginning of this deep dive. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jose Rolon: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think sometimes when politicians, when they see you and they’re automatically on the defense and they’re ready, they’re ready to give you a scripted response. But when it feels like someone that is relatable, I think their guard down is a little bit more and they’re more willing to just open up and really share from something that actually feels a little bit more personal versus than, you know, any of the scripted response. Look, I think you saw that some of the creators were not shy about asking about the war in Gaza and Palestine. I think for them to not be shy and ask them really difficult questions, whether if it was this or, you know, other hot topics around reproductive rights and so many other things that are really hot buttons right now, it was really wonderful and beautiful to see. I think there’s still this misconception with creators. We’re just a bunch of goofball dancers or, you know, our stuff doesn’t really matter. Like, there’s so many ways we can help journalists, just like, you know, there’s ways that, you know, they can help us too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as Wired reporter Makena points out, journalists can’t necessarily share political opinions the way that creators do, but they can show more of themselves online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Makena Kelly: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What I like to say is that, I think what creators have taught journalists is that we need to be more than just like black and white text on a, you know, byline. If we want to be able to earn that trust back that I think voters now have replaced oftentimes with news and political creators, then we have to show more of ourselves and more of our process and take readers along for that ride in a similar way, whether that’s writing, you know, a newsletter or doing TikTok or whatever works for you, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I know this all sounds pretty bleak. The absence of government regulations, or individual social media site rules, or leaning on each creator’s personal conviction. But Makena reminded me of something that’s a small comfort in this Wild West of the internet. There is one more force keeping creators accountable when it comes to any kind of content. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Makena Kelly: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know the one thing that’s regulating this space and this is what it’s been like online forever, uh, is communities. It’s communities of people holding other creators accountable. These creators get into little spats, there’s all this drama, they sicc, you know, each other’s followings against each other. And that seems to be like one of the biggest ways that change happens in the communities when it comes to disclosures and things like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, obviously, a system of online communities demanding transparency from the creators they follow, doesn’t compare to actual regulations or effective moderating. But it is a start. Influencers tend to be pretty open to listening to their followers. And it’s bigger than just public shaming. These call out posts and community spats actually do, sometimes, foster change. Like when drama among streamers led to the crackdown on gambling content online. But that’s a deep dive for another day. For now, let’s close all tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Close All Tabs\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. Our managing producer is Chris Egusa. Our producer is Maya Cueva. Jen Chien edited the series and is KQED’s director of podcasts.Original music and sound design by Chris Egusa. Additional music from APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad]. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager. Holly Kernan is our Chief Content Officer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A special shout out to the team at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Political Breakdown\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> for letting us share our episodes on their feed. And special thanks to founding producer Xorje Olivares. We’d love to hear what you think about the series! Hit us up at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:podcasts@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">podcasts@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, that’s podcasts with an “s.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>This episode was originally published October 26, 2024. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode of Close All Tabs, host Morgan Sung examines the rise of “stan culture” in politics, where passionate supporters rally around political figures with the same fervor typically reserved for pop stars. Morgan is joined by tech and culture reporter Kat Tenbarge to unpack the evolution of cults of personality in digital spaces, what makes some candidates more “stan-worthy” than others, and how all of this has troubling implications for public discourse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC2512652885\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Jake Tapper: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The singer Charli XCX tweeted last night, Kamala is Brat.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Charlie XCX: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">360. When you’re in the mirror do you know what you see. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Kamala Harris: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You think you just fell out of a coconut tree\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Charlie XCX: I \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘m everywhere I’m so Julia.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What you’re hearing is a TikTok video. It’s different clips of Kamala Harris dancing and they’re all colored this bright lime green. If you’ve been online this year, you might recognize it as bright green. Named for the latest album by pop singer Charli XCX. This is her song, 360, with Kamala Harris’s now iconic coconut tree speech cut into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Kamala Harris: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Of all in which you live and what came before you. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the kind of video that fans usually make for celebrities like K-Pop idols and movie stars. They’re often called “fan cams” or “fan edits”. This summer, we saw a tsunami of Kamala edits taking over people’s feeds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But well before the Vice President became the nominee, people were making fan cams of her. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aly McCormick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At first when I posted it in early July, it had like 100,000 likes. And I already thought that that was a lot. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aly McCormick is a college student studying political communications, but she’s also been very involved in online fandom. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aly McCormick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I used to run some fan accounts. I used to do a little editing on the side. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aly was behind one of the most viral Kamala Harris brought edits this summer. The one we played at the very top of this episode. It has more than 4 million views on TikTok and it’s been reposted all over X and Instagram. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Charlie XCX: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, Julia.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aly McCormick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then after Biden dropped out and Kamala became the nominee, it started to blow up a little bit more. Mark Cuban reposted it on his story. And I was like oh that’s interesting. And then the next day, it was just like I was watching CNN and I was like, there’s my there’s my video.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Jake Tapper: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So is the idea that we’re all kind of brat and Vice President Harris’s brat. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>CNN: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You don’t just become brat. You have to try.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>CNN: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can work work at it. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aly McCormick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think edits humanize people a little bit in ways that people don’t expect. A lot of my friends, at first they were like, oh I don’t know about Kamala. Like, you know, she’s they had some issues with the Biden administration and they thought that she was carrying it on. But I kind of forced fed them information a little bit. I was like, but look at her record here and here and especially like with women’s rights and stuff. And then one of my friends texted me she saw a video of Doug Emhoff and she was like oh I love him. And then she was like, my God, it’s working. Aly’s working. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even Aly’s grandma got into Brat Summer because of the Kamala edit, even though she didn’t know that Ally was the one that made it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She saw it on Fox News. She saw the brat stuff on Fox News and then I texted her like, oh I made the edit. And when I went to go visit her this summer, she was telling me how she had like a lime green shirt, like a lime green shirt, that she was brat in. I was so happy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fandom and stan culture are starting to really shape the way that people engage with politics both on and offline. Now, even though Kamala Harris had a pretty dedicated supporter base when she first ran for president in 2020, we didn’t see anything close to this amount of widespread excitement for her candidacy. So in the last couple of years, how did a former prosecutor who ran on a relatively moderate, traditional platform suddenly become synonymous with pop music icons? The Kamala social media team is on top of it. But it’s not just their digital savvy. Our relationship to the Internet and by extension, fandom has evolved significantly since 2020. So let’s talk about how stan culture and politics go hand in hand and why that might not be so great for democracy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close all Tabs, a special series from KQED. I’m Morgan Sung. I’m a tech journalist, you’re chronically online friend, and your guide to the weirdest and most fascinating corners of the internet. Together, we’re diving into election memes, disinformation campaigns, political influencers, and we’ll open as many browser tabs as it takes, all to better understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. So as we do with all our little deep dives, let’s open a new tab. When did stan culture hit politics? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So stan culture derives from this idea in early 2000s pop culture that actually came from an Eminem song. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Kat Tenbarge. She’s a reporter for NBC News and she covers influencers, fandom and tech. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A “stan” is like a stalker fan. And it kind of was born from this idea that with the rise of the internet and digital community, “to stan” someone is to not just be a fan, but to be an obsessive fan and to monitor people and to obsess over people as part of your daily life and sort of entwined in all aspects of your life. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What’s your relationship to Stan culture, or are you part of any fandoms? Were you ever part of any fandom? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, I would say especially growing up being in high school, that was when I first got onto Tumblr. I got into, at the time this was 2014, so this was really like the peak of what was called SuperWhoLock. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SuperWhoLock is a portmanteau of Supernatural, Doctor Who, and Sherlock, three TV shows that dominated pop culture and Tumblr in 2014. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>SuperWhoLock: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve been on that phone for two hours Dean who did you give the money to? Nobody. Hello it’s me, tell him we are going out and it’s all on me except for the money and the driving. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was a huge supernatural fan in particular, I did all the conventions. I have like a supernatural tattoo. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my god. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I definitely consider myself a stand. And then as an adult, I think I’ve grown out of some of those aspects of standom. But I just have a lot of empathy and appreciation for fan communities while also kind of acknowledging that there can be a lot of toxic elements of stanning as well. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This kind of toxicity can show up sometimes when stands take their dedication too personally and end up with things like harassing anyone who disagrees with them or even doxing critics, leaking private information like their phone number and home address. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this is something that I think culturally has really like, expanded beyond the boundaries of Tumblr and the internet to influence so many aspects of life today from like what gym you go to, what credit card you use, what airline you fly. And of course, it has also become a huge part of our political environment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kat said that we first started to see stan culture bleed into politics back in 2015, when Donald Trump first ran for president. Remember, this is when modern fandom started to really pick up and really drive the way that we consume entertainment. People weren’t just enjoying music or TV shows or books anymore. They were diving headfirst into these niche online communities and starting to really shape their core identity around these aspects of culture. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it really makes sense with a figure like Trump because he was an entertainer. He was before even entering the political landscape, somebody who was an idol to like broad groups of people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donald Trump: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And now you cut them off as they’re fighting each other for who should be fired. Michael. Michael, Yes sir. You’re fired. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He pushed this ideology of like individualism and the art of the deal, like winning and dominating, which are things that really appeals to certain segments of the population and can drive like really obsessive and fanatical communities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trump’s campaign called for a version of the United States that excludes almost all marginalized people. But a lot of people are still nostalgic for that version and the campaign built a whole fandom identity around this sentiment. You still see it now in the bright red hats that say Make America Great Again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think that in 2016, you really saw like the rise of the Trump stan and it crossed the border, the boundary between part of leisure and part of entertainment into active political engagement. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>News Clip: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why Donald Trump? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>News Clip: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m here to judge for myself on whether Donald Trump is a reality TV star or does he really have a political platform and agenda. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And sort of in response to this over the past eight years, you’ve now seen this effect kind of be repurposed on the other side of the aisle. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For example, Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has her share of stans. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>TikTok: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow, this is amazing, Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez just called out Republican Matt Gaetz after Marjorie Taylor Greene showed unclothed photos of Hunter Biden on the House floor today. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And although Bernie Sanders said that he himself doesn’t have any apps on his phone, he also had very online supporters when he ran for president in 2016 and 2020. Like in early 2020, we saw “Hot Girls For Bernie” take off, which was basically hot girls posting pictures of themselves and endorsing Bernie Sanders. You may also remember the okay Boomer video. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>TikTok:\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay boomer, whatever you say boomer! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When a creator went super viral for dancing in a cropped Bernie shirt as a kind of rebuttal to less progressive older voters. Back in 2020, many of the Democrats united behind Biden, but we didn’t see anywhere near this intensity of excitement. This year is different. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that in this election, for people on both sides, the stakes feel exceptionally high, and particularly when it comes to Democrats and people who are liberal and left leaning. There is this strong sentiment that it’s important to rally behind Kamala because no matter what, like they don’t want Trump to get reelected. And then another part of it is how we interact with politics in this current moment has become very online and very centered around memes and iconography and like viral posting. And so you see these kinds of like micro trends bubble up that are very reminiscent of fandom and stanning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Kamala Harris: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You exist in the context. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like Kamala is brat and the Kamala coconut tree memes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Kamala Harris: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Of all in which you live and what came before you. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right? I mean, you have like Kamala HQ posting like almost fan cams of Kamala and other DNC leaders, which is wild that you know, it’s the same political party that, you know, nominated Joe Biden in the last election. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Tiktok: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who’s going to tell him that the job he’s currently seeking might’ve been one of those Black jobs? Donald Trump is an unserious man. One of those black jobs. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. And I think part of this is that you have a lot of younger people working on these communications teams. And even within the Biden administration, they were starting to poll like young, fresh political communications talent. But with Kamala, I think that the moment is sort of unique, having the presidential nominee, the presumptive nominee, step down and endorse his vice president this late in the game has clearly activated a kind of just desire to jumpstart her campaign and really push it in any way possible and stan communities over the past really decade have just grown and grown and grown and grown on a platform like X or, you know, what was once Twitter. Everyone is mixed together. It’s this big melting pot of all these different communities. So you have like politics and Stan Twitter completely colliding. And this is a perfect example of what happens when these factions collide. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it’s not like all candidates can amass this level of support and excitement online. In fact, when most politicians try to be trendy and engage with voters online, a lot of people can see right through it. Politicians are rightfully called out all the time for trying too hard to pander to young people. So what is it exactly that makes politicians stand out online? Is there a secret recipe to engineering standom? We’ll open a new tab on that after this break. All right. So what’s the secret sauce that makes for a stan worthy candidate? New tab. What made Kamala so stannable? We talked about how Trump built his fandom. He had his TV show. He had the merch. He had that chaotic charisma that made him a kind of outsider in politics which appeal to certain voters. In this campaign, Kamala Harris is portrayed as this person who’s very accomplished but fun and approachable. It’s really interesting to see how much her image has shifted from when she first ran for president in the 2020 primaries. What exactly happened since the last election that turned this stern former prosecutor into a pop culture icon? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s super fascinating to watch sort of the evolution of Kamala as a cultural figure because, yes, in 2020, when she first came forward as a primary candidate, her sort of selling point hinged on her career as a prosecutor. The summer of 2020, we saw the Black Lives Matter movement have this massive resurgence in response to the killing of George Floyd. And so you had protests and movements culturally and physically around the country and around the world. And for Kamala to be branded as a prosecutor figure at this time ultimately really undermined her success. And that that’s where you saw like the Kamala is a cop meme, like really come to play. Kamala’s campaign a lot of people have talked about how it was ultimately pretty unsuccessful, and then over the past four years as the vice president, what we saw happen is that a lot of times it’s more about appearances and it’s more about how you’re presenting like the narrative of the administration to the public versus like the policy work that you’re doing. And so Kamala would do a lot of appearances out in public. And it also helps that she was very young compared to Joe Biden. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Kamala Harris: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We did it. We did it, Joe. You’re going to be the next president of the United States. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so we see these moments that were recorded for campaign materials or for administration materials that then went viral online even before she announced her candidacy. And some of these moments were like her singing the wheels on the bus go round and round. But like singing that incredibly off tune. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Kamala Harris: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The wheels on the bus go round and round. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a clip that is so well known that it’s now been put into one of her official campaign videos where she’s like dancing with a marching band. And these moments over the past four years, even before anyone had any inkling that she would be the presidential nominee, people really liked this. The perception of Kamala shifted from like this sort of formidable, negatively associated cop prosecutor figure into this, like, fun loving, like aunt. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s like the cool wine mom now instead of the cop. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. And that’s the perfect blend for, like, viral video content. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Add to this shift, the fact that Charlie XCX, an artist who already had a very dedicated fandom, connected her wildly successful album to Kamala Harris. Her campaign rode the cultural phenomenon that was Brat Summer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so I think it was a natural opportunity for Kamala’s days old, like fresh presidential campaign to be like, okay, let’s just seize this moment that’s already happening. Let’s jump on this thing that’s already viral. So all of them propelled Kamala is brat from like a couple a handful of viral tiktoks into the narrative that shaped the early days of her campaign. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But where is the line between, you know, embracing the meme and then just blatant pandering? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a fine line to walk. And I remember there was a viral tweet early on where someone basically said, like Kamala, like, please read this. Like you can not try to own this joke yourself or like the flame will be extinguished. And I think some of that is the nature of Internet culture comedy, where there’s an in-group/out-group sort of mentality behind a lot of memes. Like memes as a form of communication are kind of like this populist idea of it’s like we the people, think this is funny, but if we’re making fun of McDonald’s with a meme and McDonald’s official account plays into the meme, then it loses the thing that made it funny in the first place. Kamala’s campaign, you know, they took the brat format like they took the font and the color, and they used that for campaign materials and they reshared tracks that had like Charlie lyrics. And so people were willing to sort of play along with that. And I think people were sort of excited at the idea that the campaign was listening to them. But it’s a really fine line to walk because you can very easily make it no longer funny and fun if it becomes too much because now it’s something that’s being sold to you instead of something that you as like the person is pushing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But Harris’ campaign has shown that they can be adept with literally selling this version of the candidates without falling into the cringe trap that Kat describes. They are able to capitalize very quickly on another pop culture moment by linking Tim Walz as Harris’s V.P. pick, to the meteoric rise of another pop star. Chappell Roan. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And Chapel’s esthetic is the Midwest princess, where she’s from a small town in Missouri. And she talks about her roots, so she’ll wear like a cameo trucker hat that says she has merch that says like Midwest Princess. And almost immediately, Kamala’s campaign took this and repurposed it to do like a Kamala Harris’ Tim Walz hat that was like the Midwest princess hat. And it all happened. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like Tim Walz is the Midwest princess. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes and it speaks to what they’re also trying to do on a political level, which is reach the Midwest. They’re trying to reach people who are in the quote unquote, flyover states because these are obviously the people who determine elections at the presidential level. And so it all happened so quickly that Chappell herself even, quote, tweeted like a Pop Crave tweet that showed that Kamala/ Walz hat and was like, is this real? Because you can also due to like the consumer nature of these types of merchandise, you can produce something like that overnight. You can mass produce a hat or a T-shirt that hinges on some sort of viral meme or moment very, very quickly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, it really reminded me of like when artist merch drops and everyone’s scrambling to get the merch before it sells out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely. And they’ve responded to things that they see bubbling up online in really interesting ways. And a lot of times it doesn’t have anything to do with policy. It’s more of a vibe. So, like when people started to express a lot of affection for Doug, Kamala’s husband, they like put out like merch related to Doug. And people ate that up really quickly as well. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you talk more about how stan culture impacts consumerism with elections like we are being sold a candidate? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, absolutely. Over the years, money has played an increasingly determinative role in politics. And so campaigns have become a lot more over the years about getting people to buy things, about getting people to send them money. And the campaigns have taken a lot of lessons from stan culture because at the exact same time, stan culture has become a lot more commercialized. And the reason why is because corporations and conglomerates that own entertainment properties have fully realized the commercial power of fandom. And so as a fan, you’re going to be marketed to every single day of your life. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Think Disney Cruises. Harry Potter Pajamas. Taylor Swift releasing a new themed cardigan for every album variant that she drops. And Kat says, we can now see this with political campaigns as well. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You have the clothes, you have the ideology and demographic driven campaign donations. You have advertisements on every single social media platform that are targeted to you. You have text messages that are asking you to send money to these campaigns. And when they see viral moments popping up online, especially if those viral moments don’t have to do with policy, but have to do with an appreciation for Kamala’s husband or an appreciation for the Midwest princess esthetic. That’s very easy to capitalize on because it’s not a hard decision. It’s sort of like a knee jerk emotional response. Like, I love chaperons, so I’m going to buy this Kamala Harris hat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just because a group of people all like the same thing, whether that’s a pop star or a movie franchise or in this case, a politician, it doesn’t mean that they all get along. And we know that fan communities aren’t always purely wholesome spaces. Stans are known to be incredibly defensive of whatever they stan. We see this a lot during awards seasons when fans believe that one star was more deserving of an accolade than another. And we also see this when people criticize an actor or musician. Not all stans, but the most dedicated ones have been called out for dog piling critics or trying to minimize scandals in an effort to maintain their idol’s image. It’s really hard to have nuanced conversations within fan communities when any negative discussion is shut down. And this makes it very difficult to hold celebrities accountable. It’s one thing when fans swarm any criticism of their favorite pop stars excessive private jet use. What about when it comes to politicians who also have a very passionate supporter base? What are the darker implications of stan culture intertwining with politics? Time for a new tab. The Dark Side of Stanning Politicians. Back to Kat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You actually see this push back on both sides of the aisle where if someone wants to critique Kamala or critique Trump, other fans of Trump or other fans and supporters of Kamala will be like, save it. Like, save the argument, save the nuance, save the critique until the election has been decided. And that is a huge idea from fan culture, and it has absolutely seeped into political culture because of those stakes that we talked about at the beginning. Like the stakes are seen as too high to criticize Kamala right now. But the issue with sort of the stan mentality that we’ve seen in the pop culture arena is that stans will become so defensive of their idols that they won’t not just abstain from criticizing them, but they’ll attack people who do criticize them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And even idles themselves aren’t immune from other people’s stans. Chappel Roan, for example, got a lot of heat from liberals for declining to endorse Kamala Harris. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Chappel Roan: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">F*** the policies of the right, but also f*** some of the policies on the left. That’s why I can’t endorse. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s criticized the Biden administration for its opposition to gender affirming care for trans minors. And she also turned down an invitation to perform at the White House during Pride Month in protest of the administration’s support of Israel’s attacks on Gaza. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Chappel Roan: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">F**** Trump for f***** real, but f*** some of the shit that has gone down in the Democratic Party that has failed people like me and you and more so Palestine. So yeah, I’m voting for f****** Kamala, but I’m not settling for what has been offered. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of Democrats were furious at her for this nuanced take. Like Kat predicted, many people said Chappel should have saved her criticism for after the election, and some even compared to a Trump supporter, which she never stated she is. Still, amid the backlash, Chappell also got a wave of support. It wasn’t just her fans rallying behind her, a lot of people who agreed with her pointed out that even when the stakes are this high, politicians still need to be held accountable for how their policies affect their voters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the exact same time that people are questioning the overall influence of stanning in politics, you’re also seeing like the beginning of a reckoning for stanning in general. And it’s something where you have like this undercurrent bubbling up for a long time. But even with Chappell Roan, you saw her really push back against the way that fans interact with her. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Chappel Roan: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t care that abuse and harassment, stalking, whatever, is a normal thing to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kat’s talking about a video that Chappell Roan posted a few months ago where she talks about the dark side of fame and basically tried to set boundaries with her fans. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Chappel Roan: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t care that this crazy type of behavior comes along with the job, the career field I’ve chosen. That does not make it okay. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it caused a lot of conversation where sort of for the first time, you’re seeing a lot of people say like, we need to reconsider our relationship with celebrity period. I think that that conversation is only going to continue and people are going to continue to evaluate how we can have a healthier relationship with elected officials and politicians in terms of where the fan culture is going to run into issues is when it comes to more serious aspects of the campaign. Like if people have questions about specific policy or about specific controversies or real world events that are happening right now that they don’t have a good answer to. And if instead of focusing on those real questions, they lean more into the fan fervor, that’s where I think you’re going to start to see cracks in this foundation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stan culture within politics might be problematic. But Aly, the college student behind the viral Kamala Brat edit also points out how can galvanize young people into getting involved with politics. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aly McCormick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s just like so cool to see like people be excited about politics, like stuff they didn’t really expect from making a 15 second edit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aly McCormick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it’s cool to see how that can, these types of edits can resonate with people and make them look at a situation completely differently. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the end of the day, vibes alone cannot win an election. Embracing the stans is just a sliver of campaign strategy, but that sliver is more relevant with every election. Stans do show up for merch drops and album sales. This election is a test of whether or not they’ll show up to the polls. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Kamala Harris: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To see what can be, what should be, unburdened by what has been. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And this wraps up our deep dive. Time to close all these tabs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported in hosted by me, Morgan Sung. Our managing producer is Chris Egusa. Our producer is Maya Cueva. Jen Chien edited the series and is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Original Music and Sound Design by Chris Egusa. Additional music from APM. Audience Engagement Support from my Maha Sinad. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Director. Holly Kernan is our Chief Content Officer. A special shout out to the team at Political Breakdown for letting us share our episodes on their feed. We’d love to hear what you think about the series. Hit us up at podcasts at KQED dot org. That’s podcast with an “s”. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Jake Tapper: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The singer Charli XCX tweeted last night, Kamala is Brat.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Charlie XCX: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">360. When you’re in the mirror do you know what you see. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Kamala Harris: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You think you just fell out of a coconut tree\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Charlie XCX: I \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘m everywhere I’m so Julia.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What you’re hearing is a TikTok video. It’s different clips of Kamala Harris dancing and they’re all colored this bright lime green. If you’ve been online this year, you might recognize it as bright green. Named for the latest album by pop singer Charli XCX. This is her song, 360, with Kamala Harris’s now iconic coconut tree speech cut into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Kamala Harris: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Of all in which you live and what came before you. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the kind of video that fans usually make for celebrities like K-Pop idols and movie stars. They’re often called “fan cams” or “fan edits”. This summer, we saw a tsunami of Kamala edits taking over people’s feeds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But well before the Vice President became the nominee, people were making fan cams of her. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aly McCormick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At first when I posted it in early July, it had like 100,000 likes. And I already thought that that was a lot. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aly McCormick is a college student studying political communications, but she’s also been very involved in online fandom. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aly McCormick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I used to run some fan accounts. I used to do a little editing on the side. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aly was behind one of the most viral Kamala Harris brought edits this summer. The one we played at the very top of this episode. It has more than 4 million views on TikTok and it’s been reposted all over X and Instagram. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Charlie XCX: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, Julia.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aly McCormick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then after Biden dropped out and Kamala became the nominee, it started to blow up a little bit more. Mark Cuban reposted it on his story. And I was like oh that’s interesting. And then the next day, it was just like I was watching CNN and I was like, there’s my there’s my video.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Jake Tapper: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So is the idea that we’re all kind of brat and Vice President Harris’s brat. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>CNN: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You don’t just become brat. You have to try.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>CNN: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can work work at it. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aly McCormick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think edits humanize people a little bit in ways that people don’t expect. A lot of my friends, at first they were like, oh I don’t know about Kamala. Like, you know, she’s they had some issues with the Biden administration and they thought that she was carrying it on. But I kind of forced fed them information a little bit. I was like, but look at her record here and here and especially like with women’s rights and stuff. And then one of my friends texted me she saw a video of Doug Emhoff and she was like oh I love him. And then she was like, my God, it’s working. Aly’s working. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even Aly’s grandma got into Brat Summer because of the Kamala edit, even though she didn’t know that Ally was the one that made it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She saw it on Fox News. She saw the brat stuff on Fox News and then I texted her like, oh I made the edit. And when I went to go visit her this summer, she was telling me how she had like a lime green shirt, like a lime green shirt, that she was brat in. I was so happy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fandom and stan culture are starting to really shape the way that people engage with politics both on and offline. Now, even though Kamala Harris had a pretty dedicated supporter base when she first ran for president in 2020, we didn’t see anything close to this amount of widespread excitement for her candidacy. So in the last couple of years, how did a former prosecutor who ran on a relatively moderate, traditional platform suddenly become synonymous with pop music icons? The Kamala social media team is on top of it. But it’s not just their digital savvy. Our relationship to the Internet and by extension, fandom has evolved significantly since 2020. So let’s talk about how stan culture and politics go hand in hand and why that might not be so great for democracy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close all Tabs, a special series from KQED. I’m Morgan Sung. I’m a tech journalist, you’re chronically online friend, and your guide to the weirdest and most fascinating corners of the internet. Together, we’re diving into election memes, disinformation campaigns, political influencers, and we’ll open as many browser tabs as it takes, all to better understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. So as we do with all our little deep dives, let’s open a new tab. When did stan culture hit politics? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So stan culture derives from this idea in early 2000s pop culture that actually came from an Eminem song. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Kat Tenbarge. She’s a reporter for NBC News and she covers influencers, fandom and tech. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A “stan” is like a stalker fan. And it kind of was born from this idea that with the rise of the internet and digital community, “to stan” someone is to not just be a fan, but to be an obsessive fan and to monitor people and to obsess over people as part of your daily life and sort of entwined in all aspects of your life. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What’s your relationship to Stan culture, or are you part of any fandoms? Were you ever part of any fandom? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, I would say especially growing up being in high school, that was when I first got onto Tumblr. I got into, at the time this was 2014, so this was really like the peak of what was called SuperWhoLock. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SuperWhoLock is a portmanteau of Supernatural, Doctor Who, and Sherlock, three TV shows that dominated pop culture and Tumblr in 2014. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>SuperWhoLock: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve been on that phone for two hours Dean who did you give the money to? Nobody. Hello it’s me, tell him we are going out and it’s all on me except for the money and the driving. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was a huge supernatural fan in particular, I did all the conventions. I have like a supernatural tattoo. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my god. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I definitely consider myself a stand. And then as an adult, I think I’ve grown out of some of those aspects of standom. But I just have a lot of empathy and appreciation for fan communities while also kind of acknowledging that there can be a lot of toxic elements of stanning as well. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This kind of toxicity can show up sometimes when stands take their dedication too personally and end up with things like harassing anyone who disagrees with them or even doxing critics, leaking private information like their phone number and home address. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this is something that I think culturally has really like, expanded beyond the boundaries of Tumblr and the internet to influence so many aspects of life today from like what gym you go to, what credit card you use, what airline you fly. And of course, it has also become a huge part of our political environment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kat said that we first started to see stan culture bleed into politics back in 2015, when Donald Trump first ran for president. Remember, this is when modern fandom started to really pick up and really drive the way that we consume entertainment. People weren’t just enjoying music or TV shows or books anymore. They were diving headfirst into these niche online communities and starting to really shape their core identity around these aspects of culture. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it really makes sense with a figure like Trump because he was an entertainer. He was before even entering the political landscape, somebody who was an idol to like broad groups of people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donald Trump: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And now you cut them off as they’re fighting each other for who should be fired. Michael. Michael, Yes sir. You’re fired. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He pushed this ideology of like individualism and the art of the deal, like winning and dominating, which are things that really appeals to certain segments of the population and can drive like really obsessive and fanatical communities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trump’s campaign called for a version of the United States that excludes almost all marginalized people. But a lot of people are still nostalgic for that version and the campaign built a whole fandom identity around this sentiment. You still see it now in the bright red hats that say Make America Great Again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think that in 2016, you really saw like the rise of the Trump stan and it crossed the border, the boundary between part of leisure and part of entertainment into active political engagement. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>News Clip: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why Donald Trump? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>News Clip: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m here to judge for myself on whether Donald Trump is a reality TV star or does he really have a political platform and agenda. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And sort of in response to this over the past eight years, you’ve now seen this effect kind of be repurposed on the other side of the aisle. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For example, Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has her share of stans. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>TikTok: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow, this is amazing, Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez just called out Republican Matt Gaetz after Marjorie Taylor Greene showed unclothed photos of Hunter Biden on the House floor today. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And although Bernie Sanders said that he himself doesn’t have any apps on his phone, he also had very online supporters when he ran for president in 2016 and 2020. Like in early 2020, we saw “Hot Girls For Bernie” take off, which was basically hot girls posting pictures of themselves and endorsing Bernie Sanders. You may also remember the okay Boomer video. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>TikTok:\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay boomer, whatever you say boomer! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When a creator went super viral for dancing in a cropped Bernie shirt as a kind of rebuttal to less progressive older voters. Back in 2020, many of the Democrats united behind Biden, but we didn’t see anywhere near this intensity of excitement. This year is different. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that in this election, for people on both sides, the stakes feel exceptionally high, and particularly when it comes to Democrats and people who are liberal and left leaning. There is this strong sentiment that it’s important to rally behind Kamala because no matter what, like they don’t want Trump to get reelected. And then another part of it is how we interact with politics in this current moment has become very online and very centered around memes and iconography and like viral posting. And so you see these kinds of like micro trends bubble up that are very reminiscent of fandom and stanning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Kamala Harris: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You exist in the context. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like Kamala is brat and the Kamala coconut tree memes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Kamala Harris: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Of all in which you live and what came before you. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right? I mean, you have like Kamala HQ posting like almost fan cams of Kamala and other DNC leaders, which is wild that you know, it’s the same political party that, you know, nominated Joe Biden in the last election. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Tiktok: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who’s going to tell him that the job he’s currently seeking might’ve been one of those Black jobs? Donald Trump is an unserious man. One of those black jobs. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. And I think part of this is that you have a lot of younger people working on these communications teams. And even within the Biden administration, they were starting to poll like young, fresh political communications talent. But with Kamala, I think that the moment is sort of unique, having the presidential nominee, the presumptive nominee, step down and endorse his vice president this late in the game has clearly activated a kind of just desire to jumpstart her campaign and really push it in any way possible and stan communities over the past really decade have just grown and grown and grown and grown on a platform like X or, you know, what was once Twitter. Everyone is mixed together. It’s this big melting pot of all these different communities. So you have like politics and Stan Twitter completely colliding. And this is a perfect example of what happens when these factions collide. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it’s not like all candidates can amass this level of support and excitement online. In fact, when most politicians try to be trendy and engage with voters online, a lot of people can see right through it. Politicians are rightfully called out all the time for trying too hard to pander to young people. So what is it exactly that makes politicians stand out online? Is there a secret recipe to engineering standom? We’ll open a new tab on that after this break. All right. So what’s the secret sauce that makes for a stan worthy candidate? New tab. What made Kamala so stannable? We talked about how Trump built his fandom. He had his TV show. He had the merch. He had that chaotic charisma that made him a kind of outsider in politics which appeal to certain voters. In this campaign, Kamala Harris is portrayed as this person who’s very accomplished but fun and approachable. It’s really interesting to see how much her image has shifted from when she first ran for president in the 2020 primaries. What exactly happened since the last election that turned this stern former prosecutor into a pop culture icon? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s super fascinating to watch sort of the evolution of Kamala as a cultural figure because, yes, in 2020, when she first came forward as a primary candidate, her sort of selling point hinged on her career as a prosecutor. The summer of 2020, we saw the Black Lives Matter movement have this massive resurgence in response to the killing of George Floyd. And so you had protests and movements culturally and physically around the country and around the world. And for Kamala to be branded as a prosecutor figure at this time ultimately really undermined her success. And that that’s where you saw like the Kamala is a cop meme, like really come to play. Kamala’s campaign a lot of people have talked about how it was ultimately pretty unsuccessful, and then over the past four years as the vice president, what we saw happen is that a lot of times it’s more about appearances and it’s more about how you’re presenting like the narrative of the administration to the public versus like the policy work that you’re doing. And so Kamala would do a lot of appearances out in public. And it also helps that she was very young compared to Joe Biden. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Kamala Harris: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We did it. We did it, Joe. You’re going to be the next president of the United States. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so we see these moments that were recorded for campaign materials or for administration materials that then went viral online even before she announced her candidacy. And some of these moments were like her singing the wheels on the bus go round and round. But like singing that incredibly off tune. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Kamala Harris: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The wheels on the bus go round and round. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a clip that is so well known that it’s now been put into one of her official campaign videos where she’s like dancing with a marching band. And these moments over the past four years, even before anyone had any inkling that she would be the presidential nominee, people really liked this. The perception of Kamala shifted from like this sort of formidable, negatively associated cop prosecutor figure into this, like, fun loving, like aunt. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s like the cool wine mom now instead of the cop. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. And that’s the perfect blend for, like, viral video content. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Add to this shift, the fact that Charlie XCX, an artist who already had a very dedicated fandom, connected her wildly successful album to Kamala Harris. Her campaign rode the cultural phenomenon that was Brat Summer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so I think it was a natural opportunity for Kamala’s days old, like fresh presidential campaign to be like, okay, let’s just seize this moment that’s already happening. Let’s jump on this thing that’s already viral. So all of them propelled Kamala is brat from like a couple a handful of viral tiktoks into the narrative that shaped the early days of her campaign. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But where is the line between, you know, embracing the meme and then just blatant pandering? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a fine line to walk. And I remember there was a viral tweet early on where someone basically said, like Kamala, like, please read this. Like you can not try to own this joke yourself or like the flame will be extinguished. And I think some of that is the nature of Internet culture comedy, where there’s an in-group/out-group sort of mentality behind a lot of memes. Like memes as a form of communication are kind of like this populist idea of it’s like we the people, think this is funny, but if we’re making fun of McDonald’s with a meme and McDonald’s official account plays into the meme, then it loses the thing that made it funny in the first place. Kamala’s campaign, you know, they took the brat format like they took the font and the color, and they used that for campaign materials and they reshared tracks that had like Charlie lyrics. And so people were willing to sort of play along with that. And I think people were sort of excited at the idea that the campaign was listening to them. But it’s a really fine line to walk because you can very easily make it no longer funny and fun if it becomes too much because now it’s something that’s being sold to you instead of something that you as like the person is pushing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But Harris’ campaign has shown that they can be adept with literally selling this version of the candidates without falling into the cringe trap that Kat describes. They are able to capitalize very quickly on another pop culture moment by linking Tim Walz as Harris’s V.P. pick, to the meteoric rise of another pop star. Chappell Roan. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And Chapel’s esthetic is the Midwest princess, where she’s from a small town in Missouri. And she talks about her roots, so she’ll wear like a cameo trucker hat that says she has merch that says like Midwest Princess. And almost immediately, Kamala’s campaign took this and repurposed it to do like a Kamala Harris’ Tim Walz hat that was like the Midwest princess hat. And it all happened. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like Tim Walz is the Midwest princess. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes and it speaks to what they’re also trying to do on a political level, which is reach the Midwest. They’re trying to reach people who are in the quote unquote, flyover states because these are obviously the people who determine elections at the presidential level. And so it all happened so quickly that Chappell herself even, quote, tweeted like a Pop Crave tweet that showed that Kamala/ Walz hat and was like, is this real? Because you can also due to like the consumer nature of these types of merchandise, you can produce something like that overnight. You can mass produce a hat or a T-shirt that hinges on some sort of viral meme or moment very, very quickly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, it really reminded me of like when artist merch drops and everyone’s scrambling to get the merch before it sells out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely. And they’ve responded to things that they see bubbling up online in really interesting ways. And a lot of times it doesn’t have anything to do with policy. It’s more of a vibe. So, like when people started to express a lot of affection for Doug, Kamala’s husband, they like put out like merch related to Doug. And people ate that up really quickly as well. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you talk more about how stan culture impacts consumerism with elections like we are being sold a candidate? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, absolutely. Over the years, money has played an increasingly determinative role in politics. And so campaigns have become a lot more over the years about getting people to buy things, about getting people to send them money. And the campaigns have taken a lot of lessons from stan culture because at the exact same time, stan culture has become a lot more commercialized. And the reason why is because corporations and conglomerates that own entertainment properties have fully realized the commercial power of fandom. And so as a fan, you’re going to be marketed to every single day of your life. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Think Disney Cruises. Harry Potter Pajamas. Taylor Swift releasing a new themed cardigan for every album variant that she drops. And Kat says, we can now see this with political campaigns as well. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You have the clothes, you have the ideology and demographic driven campaign donations. You have advertisements on every single social media platform that are targeted to you. You have text messages that are asking you to send money to these campaigns. And when they see viral moments popping up online, especially if those viral moments don’t have to do with policy, but have to do with an appreciation for Kamala’s husband or an appreciation for the Midwest princess esthetic. That’s very easy to capitalize on because it’s not a hard decision. It’s sort of like a knee jerk emotional response. Like, I love chaperons, so I’m going to buy this Kamala Harris hat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just because a group of people all like the same thing, whether that’s a pop star or a movie franchise or in this case, a politician, it doesn’t mean that they all get along. And we know that fan communities aren’t always purely wholesome spaces. Stans are known to be incredibly defensive of whatever they stan. We see this a lot during awards seasons when fans believe that one star was more deserving of an accolade than another. And we also see this when people criticize an actor or musician. Not all stans, but the most dedicated ones have been called out for dog piling critics or trying to minimize scandals in an effort to maintain their idol’s image. It’s really hard to have nuanced conversations within fan communities when any negative discussion is shut down. And this makes it very difficult to hold celebrities accountable. It’s one thing when fans swarm any criticism of their favorite pop stars excessive private jet use. What about when it comes to politicians who also have a very passionate supporter base? What are the darker implications of stan culture intertwining with politics? Time for a new tab. The Dark Side of Stanning Politicians. Back to Kat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You actually see this push back on both sides of the aisle where if someone wants to critique Kamala or critique Trump, other fans of Trump or other fans and supporters of Kamala will be like, save it. Like, save the argument, save the nuance, save the critique until the election has been decided. And that is a huge idea from fan culture, and it has absolutely seeped into political culture because of those stakes that we talked about at the beginning. Like the stakes are seen as too high to criticize Kamala right now. But the issue with sort of the stan mentality that we’ve seen in the pop culture arena is that stans will become so defensive of their idols that they won’t not just abstain from criticizing them, but they’ll attack people who do criticize them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And even idles themselves aren’t immune from other people’s stans. Chappel Roan, for example, got a lot of heat from liberals for declining to endorse Kamala Harris. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Chappel Roan: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">F*** the policies of the right, but also f*** some of the policies on the left. That’s why I can’t endorse. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s criticized the Biden administration for its opposition to gender affirming care for trans minors. And she also turned down an invitation to perform at the White House during Pride Month in protest of the administration’s support of Israel’s attacks on Gaza. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Chappel Roan: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">F**** Trump for f***** real, but f*** some of the shit that has gone down in the Democratic Party that has failed people like me and you and more so Palestine. So yeah, I’m voting for f****** Kamala, but I’m not settling for what has been offered. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of Democrats were furious at her for this nuanced take. Like Kat predicted, many people said Chappel should have saved her criticism for after the election, and some even compared to a Trump supporter, which she never stated she is. Still, amid the backlash, Chappell also got a wave of support. It wasn’t just her fans rallying behind her, a lot of people who agreed with her pointed out that even when the stakes are this high, politicians still need to be held accountable for how their policies affect their voters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the exact same time that people are questioning the overall influence of stanning in politics, you’re also seeing like the beginning of a reckoning for stanning in general. And it’s something where you have like this undercurrent bubbling up for a long time. But even with Chappell Roan, you saw her really push back against the way that fans interact with her. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Chappel Roan: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t care that abuse and harassment, stalking, whatever, is a normal thing to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kat’s talking about a video that Chappell Roan posted a few months ago where she talks about the dark side of fame and basically tried to set boundaries with her fans. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Chappel Roan: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t care that this crazy type of behavior comes along with the job, the career field I’ve chosen. That does not make it okay. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Tenbarge: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it caused a lot of conversation where sort of for the first time, you’re seeing a lot of people say like, we need to reconsider our relationship with celebrity period. I think that that conversation is only going to continue and people are going to continue to evaluate how we can have a healthier relationship with elected officials and politicians in terms of where the fan culture is going to run into issues is when it comes to more serious aspects of the campaign. Like if people have questions about specific policy or about specific controversies or real world events that are happening right now that they don’t have a good answer to. And if instead of focusing on those real questions, they lean more into the fan fervor, that’s where I think you’re going to start to see cracks in this foundation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stan culture within politics might be problematic. But Aly, the college student behind the viral Kamala Brat edit also points out how can galvanize young people into getting involved with politics. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aly McCormick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s just like so cool to see like people be excited about politics, like stuff they didn’t really expect from making a 15 second edit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aly McCormick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it’s cool to see how that can, these types of edits can resonate with people and make them look at a situation completely differently. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the end of the day, vibes alone cannot win an election. Embracing the stans is just a sliver of campaign strategy, but that sliver is more relevant with every election. Stans do show up for merch drops and album sales. This election is a test of whether or not they’ll show up to the polls. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Kamala Harris: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To see what can be, what should be, unburdened by what has been. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And this wraps up our deep dive. Time to close all these tabs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported in hosted by me, Morgan Sung. Our managing producer is Chris Egusa. Our producer is Maya Cueva. Jen Chien edited the series and is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Original Music and Sound Design by Chris Egusa. Additional music from APM. Audience Engagement Support from my Maha Sinad. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Director. Holly Kernan is our Chief Content Officer. A special shout out to the team at Political Breakdown for letting us share our episodes on their feed. We’d love to hear what you think about the series. Hit us up at podcasts at KQED dot org. That’s podcast with an “s”. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>This episode was originally published October 19, 2024. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode of Close All Tabs, host Morgan Sung dives into the world of viral political memes with TechCrunch senior writer Amanda Silberling, unraveling the origins of the infamous JD Vance “couch rumor.” What began as a seemingly frivolous post on X about the Republican VP nominee spiraled into a meme with real-world consequences, shifting the tone of the race. Morgan is also joined by Imran Ahmed, CEO of the Center for Countering Digital Hate, to explore the fragile line between satire and disinformation in modern politics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC4708563623\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Please note that this episode contains explicit language and adult themes, so listen with care. The way disinformation spreads online can lead to pretty horrifying real world consequences. We saw that in September when false claims about immigrants eating pets in Springfield, Ohio, led to widespread disruptions and bomb threats. Now, the people spreading those claims face legal action. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 1 A nonprofit has filed charges against former President Donald Trump and his running mate, Senator J.D. Vance, accusing them of spreading false claims about immigrants in Springfield. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’ll have to wait and see if those charges stick to the former president and his V.P. running mate. But back over the summer, Vance himself was the subject of a disinformation campaign that felt far less dire. Remember that rumor that went around about J.D. Vance and his appreciation for couches? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Waters:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And if you’re going to accuse someone of having sex with a couch, you better have video. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was Fox News host Jesse Watters defending Vance, looking back and more closely at what seems like a silly rumor can actually tell us a lot about how disinformation spreads online. This all started when a shit post on the social media platform X claimed that Vance admitted to I don’t know, let’s call it “recreational couch penetration” in his 2016 memoir, Hillbilly Elegy. This one off joke blew up online, breaking through Meme Twitter and into the mainstream news cycle. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Speaker 1:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You may be wondering why you’re seeing a ton of memes and posts about Donald Trump’s VP pick, J.D. Vance, and his sectional relationship with his. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Speaker 2:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Couch, and J.D. Vance talking about childless cat ladies and having sex with a c ouch. You watched? Yes, You heard that correctly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Suddenly, people are clamoring to buy a copy of Hillbilly Elegy just to check if it was real. Google searches for J.D. Vance and Couch skyrocketed. Even Tim Walz joined in with a certified dad joke. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tim Walz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I got to tell you, I can’t wait to debate the guy. That is if he’s willing to get off the couch and show up. So. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Disinformation has always been rampant on Twitter or now X. But under Elon Musk’s leadership, it’s a lot easier to spread misleading information and outright lies. How did X allow this raunchy post which is proven to be untrue, to spread so far? And where do we draw the line between a funny meme and harmful disinformation? This is Close All Tabs a special series from KQED. I’m Morgan Sung. I’m a tech journalist. Your chronically online friend, and your guide to the weirdest and most fascinating corners of the Internet. Together, we’re diving into election memes, disinformation campaigns, political influencers, and we’ll open as many browser tabs as it takes — all to better understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Okay, let’s dive in. Open new tab. How did the couch rumor go mainstream? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Silberling:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I saw the rumor first like the day that Donald Trump announced that J.D. Vance was his running mate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is Amanda Silberling. She’s a reporter for TechCrunch, the co-host of the Internet Culture podcast Wow If True. And she is very online, which means she knows a lot about memes. And right after news broke that J.D. Vance was Trump’s VP pick, Amanda’s friend, who’s also a reporter, sent her a screenshot of an X post. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Silberling:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Which said, quote, I can’t say for sure, but might be the first VP pick to have admitted in a New York Times bestseller to f****** an inside out latex glove shoved between two couch cushions. Parentheses. Vance Hillbilly Elegy. Page 179 to 181, which came from an account with 1700 followers on Twitter, which is like not a lot for something of this magnitude. Like this is like a mid-level, like, fandom account on Twitter. And I remember seeing this and I was with another friend and I like, turned to them and was like, “Oh my God, this is so funny. Like, can you believe it?” Because it does sound like something that you would write about in like a coming of age memoir about growing up in like rural Ohio slash Kentucky. I don’t remember exactly, but like, it’s like something that’s kind of plausible to happen. So my first reaction was, “Haha, this is so funny.” And my next reaction was, “Wait a minute, I’m a journalist. Is this real?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Amanda went digging to see for herself if the couch story was real. So here’s page 180 of Hillbilly Elegy, narrated by Vance himself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Years later, I looked at my wedding party of six groomsmen… To a man. All of them had found careers outside of their hometowns, and none of them had any interest in ever going back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And no couch f******. So Amanda moved on with her life and forgot about the rumor. A week later, Joe Biden dropped out of the race and endorsed Kamala Harris. Kamala-themed fan edits a means and pictures of homemade merch flooded X. And then the couch rumor started floating around again. Someone tweeted a picture of what they said was a page from Hillbilly Elegy. This is how I first saw the the rumor. And I was like, “I guess I looks pretty legit.” Like, it looks like something my old college professor would send out like some PDF scan of our reading for the class. But how would you describe it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Silberling:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s slightly pixilated, but it’s very legible and it is slightly off centered, which I think it’s very it’s giving like “TA scanned this 20 minutes before class” vibes. Do we want to see what dramatic reading of that page. Yeah. Years later, I looked at my wedding party of six groomsmen and realized that every single one of them had, like me, f***** a couch. All of us had found ourselves beheld by the eroticism of two cushions side by side with that lush, inviting valley between. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the middle of the night. Amanda woke up to a text from the friend who sent her the original couch post. This time she sent the screenshot of the fake page. Was this real? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Silberling:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And then I’m up for like an hour being like, “I need a prove this is fake. Like, this can’t be real.” And basically everybody was replying to it like, “Oh my God, this is in my copy too. Like, I have the first edition and it’s here like, Wow, it’s so crazy.” And like, these people are all in on the joke. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Silberling:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right? I mean, there is like a tick tock going around of a guy being like, “I work at Barnes Noble’s and I and like, this page is just blank.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Speaker 3:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And the funniest thing is that in the original book there a whole scene where he f***** a couch. It is supposed to be pages 178. Right? Tell me why it’s a blank page. They cut it. They cut the couch f*****. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But at the same time, like, it’s like there are so many people who don’t, I guess have meme literacy or shitpost literacy who are just taking it as fact. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Silberling:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. And then the AP publishes a story called “No J.D. Vance did not have Sex with a couch.” And it’s one of their like AP fact check stories. And of course, everyone is like, “Wow, this is so funny. What a great headline.” My reaction to it was like, “Wow, I will never write a headline as good as No, J.D. Vance did not have sex with a couch.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But then the AP retracted the article, which only fanned the flames. It’s pretty rare for newsrooms to just take down the story if there are corrections or if the reporting just didn’t meet editorial standards, they’ll usually leave it up. But then add a note at the top or sometimes bottom of the page. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Silberling:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Pulling a story is like the nuclear button, like the the Oppenheimer move for lack a better word. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. And like the fact that they retracted it made people believe the story even more because they were like, well, it must be true then. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Silberling:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And all they said about it was the story which did not go out on the wire to our customers, didn’t go through our standard editing process. We are looking into how it happened. And then like this just gives people on the Internet more room to speculate. And the answer that people come up with is “maybe the reason why they pulled the article is because we cannot definitively prove that JD Vance did not write in Hillbilly Elegy that he f***** a Couch, but we don’t know what he was doing.” Like, I don’t know, like we don’t have cameras on him full time watching all the weird stuff he did when he was an adolescent boy in like, Middle America. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Amanda said that according to Google Trends, searches for “J.D. Vance” and “Couch” spiked after the AP took down the article. But before they even publish that story, massive blue wave liberal accounts on X repost reposted the couch affair as fact. Okay, let’s talk about how this meme spread. New tab. Who was reposting the couch meme? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Silberling:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When I was looking at who was actually talking about this before the AP reported on it, it was like MSNBC parents and like Vote Blue no matter who, just kind of like the very like pink hat at the Women’s March kind of liberals like these people have millions of followers and they have a wide influence. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Even Democratic politicians who had stuck by Michelle Obama’s “when they go low we go high” mentality up until now, were cracking couch jokes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elizabeth Warren:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Trust Donald Trump and JD vance to look out for your family? Shoot, I wouldn’t trust them to move my couch. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But Amanda says one poster in particular caught her attention. Dan Savage, the longtime sex columnist and LGBT rights activist. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Silberling:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I thought it was so interesting that Dan Savage, of all people, was one of the spreaders of it because he’s the Santorum guy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In 2003, Republican then-Senator Rick Santorum made really deeply offensive comments comparing gay sex to beastiality. Dan Savage wrote a column denouncing the homophobic comments and then took it a step further. He held a competition to coin a new definition for the word Santorum. You can look up the winning definition for yourself. But I can tell you that it has something to do with bodily fluids. This new definition was so popular that whenever someone searched for Santorum, that’s what they’d find at the top of their results. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 2:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of the top search results for Santorum on Google is a site called Spreading santorum.com. And it’s got a big brown blotch on it. And we can’t say more than that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Silberling:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And because 2003, like search engine optimization is like wizardry, this is not something that there are professionals doing. So this basically tricked Google into thinking that the definition of Santorum was legitimate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> More than 20 years later, it’s still at the top of Google results. And that’s why Dan Savage’s response to the couch rumors really stuck with Amanda. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Silberling:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> He’s been trying to manipulate the Internet against Republican candidates for like 20 years. He knows what he’s doing. He posted one thing about the couch f*****, and then in a separate tweet, he was like, “LOL, this is definitely not real, but whatever.” I don’t know what exactly he posted, but he seemed to know he was in on the joke. So I don’t know. I mean, I think this is why the couch f***** incident is so interesting to me because I do think it falls in a moral gray area where, like, I simultaneously think it’s really funny, but I also think it sets a bad precedent. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s important to note here that the couch rumor started on and spread on X. Other mainstream social media sites at least try to crack down on fake news and hate speech. But X has become a hotbed for disinformation. Brazil actually banned the site earlier this year over its refusal to stop the spread of political disinformation. Bot counts are spreading conspiracy theories and sowing discord ahead of elections around the world, like anti-migrant great replacement posts in the United Kingdom or in Rwanda, hundreds of accounts suddenly sharing messages in support of the incumbent president. Here in the U.S., we have those false claims of pet eating in Ohio. And both Donald Trump and Elon Musk have tweeted AI generated images with no attribution. Why does this site in particular breed disinformation? It thrives on X. We’ll open a new tab on that after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what is up with X and disinformation? Let’s open a new tab. X’s disinformation problem. It wasn’t always this bad. Disinformation existed on Twitter before, but the site made active efforts to curb it. They banned political advertising, had active moderators and rolled out features to report election misinformation. But that all changed in 2022 when Musk took over to get into this. I reached out to Imran Ahmed. He’s the CEO and founder of the Center for Countering Digital Hate or CCDH, an international nonprofit organization tackling hate speech and disinformation on social media. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s cost free for social media platforms to be the primary vector of hate and disinformation. There’s no other industry in America — there’s no publisher that cannot be held liable for what they publish — apart from social media companies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Imran says the CCDH wants to change that. But the organization has been criticized by conservatives who claim that they promote censorship. X actually tried to sue the CCDH for loss of revenue after the organization reported on hate speech and disinformation on the platform. A federal judge dismissed the lawsuit this year and ironically said that X was the one trying to punish free speech. Imran says the platform actually incentivizes disinformation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So it would help to start by defining the terms. Misinformation is is wrong information, right? But disinformation, which is another term that people will have heard being used, that’s intentional and therefore it goes beyond being wrong to lying. And quite often, the bulk of the stuff that’s being posted is actually people reposting or engaging with or repeating disinformation. So that’s the bulk of it is misinformation. It’s people who are just wrong, who may have swallowed the initial lie, which was spread by someone who was doing it with quite distinct intent. And in this election, we’ve seen a continuation, if not expansion on some platforms like X of the volume of disinformation and misinformation. And it’s the confidence with which disinformation actors are able to both post freely without hindrance, but also that are amplified by the platform’s own algorithms which give the advantage to contentious information, disinformation, hate that generates an emotional reaction from most people. And it’s that engagement that they’ve realized keeps people on the platforms arguing and shouting at each other, screaming at each other, sometimes trying to trying to stop people from spreading hate and lies. That’s the stuff that they’ve realized is so profitable to them. So we have seen that not only about actors becoming more sophisticated in using these platforms, but the platforms themselves are becoming weaker at enforcing their own rules. So it will surprise you to know that since 2016, things have actually gotten worse, not better, at the platforms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, you mentioned 2016. That was actually my next question, but that seemed to be the turning point for misinformation and disinformation, which had always existed online, but in more fringe areas of the Internet. But that seemed like the turning point for for that to go mainstream and like break into, you know, where everyone else was on the Internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, look, I think in that election in that year, a number of bad actors realize that these platforms are completely vulnerable. Like. I think people in the past have thought the platforms try their best to clean up this stuff. That was the year that we realized that, and it’s because of a series of events. You have the U.S. elections where there was a vast amount of disinformation flowing and there was foreign state involvement. But for me as a British person, you know, in the U.K. back then, we’d just had the Brexit referendum where we’d seen a vast amount of disinformation flowing through in the country targeting Black and Muslim communities with with lies. We’d seen a massive rise of anti-Semitism on the political left in the UK. We’ve seen a political assassination which is unprecedented in the UK of my colleague and my friend Jo Cox, MP. So we’d seen these things happening and there were these fractures happening all over politics, all over the world. And 2016 was the year when we realized, Holy moly, it’s not just happening in one place, it’s happening everywhere simultaneously. And when something happens everywhere simultaneously, that’s because it’s not down to one bad actor. It’s down to the system being broken. Right. It’s like if if an iceberg melts, does anyone say, well, that’s just that the iceberg decided to melt? I don’t know why, guys. It’s not. It’s because of something called climate change. And that’s fundamentally changing our atmosphere, changing our planet, the topography, the underneath the systems. Something more fundamental is happening. And that’s the year that we realized. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right? The year we realized we had to allow these social media giants to operate unchecked. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. It’s it’s the year that we realized that disinformation was a real systemic global problem that was destabilizing democracy and rolling back our ability to have cohesive communities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I know that misinformation and disinformation had existed on Twitter for a long time, particularly in 2016, but it seemed like following 2016, Twitter made some effort to curb it, you know, whether by installing reporting systems or stricter moderation. But under Musk’s leadership, X has rolled back a significant amount of that. Can you talk about how misinformation and disinformation has worsened since Musk’s takeover? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well Musk did three things when he took over. First of all, he signaled to people that you can say and do whatever you want on our platform. And, you know, we showed that that led in the week after he took over the number of times the N-word was used on X tripled compared to when it was when it was Twitter. So there was a tripling in the usage. And, you know, we’ve seen disinformation increase substantially. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Imran says they’ve also seen that so-called blue checks are more likely to post disinformation. And by blue check, he’s talking about the people who pay for X premium, the monthly subscription service that comes with a suite of special features, including a verified checkmark. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because they get that additional algorithmic boost in visibility. So we’re seeing more and more disinformation in our feed. Then the second thing he did was let back onto the platform tens of thousands of people who’ve been banned previously for being serial violators of the rules. And Twitter still has rules, so X still has rules on the platform. They have to because no one would advertise there if it was completely you know, if if there was no rules at all. The third thing he did was unveil himself as the chief disinformation officer of Twitter by spreading disinformation himself. I mean, we did a study showing that 50 of his posts about election disinformation have actually reached an audience of 1.2 billion views. And that is deeply disturbing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> X rolled back many of Twitter’s existing features to curb misinformation, but at least it kept community notes. Community notes for those who don’t know allows users to add their own fact checking that will appear at the bottom of the post. According to X, over 500,000 users contribute to community notes. But critics point out that it can’t replace a paid trained moderation team. What are your thoughts and community notes? I mean, that’s the one feature he’s added. But you know, it puts the onus on the users to moderate themselves to fact check themselves. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I don’t think it’s a bad idea. I mean, I think is quite innovative, and quite clever, but it’s not the solution. I mean, the solution to to everything is to have like moderation, to have a reporting platform. So you can report posts, someone has a look at it if it’s bad, you know, to ban people that that are really problematic. Like, you know, it takes effort to keep a community healthy and real debate requires healthy — it requires a healthy community in which everyone feels they can express their views. A debate is not someone posting the N-word to you 500 times after you post nonstop. That’s what happens on X. It is. It’s just is not conducive to the public discourse that we need in a healthy democracy. So I do think that we have this this particular systemic problem on X. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Imran says a proliferation of generative AI, including Grok — X’s own AI chat bot and image generator — has decreased the cost of producing disinformation. That makes the truth even more difficult to discern. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It used to be that you can’t believe something unless you see it, see or hear it yourself. Well, now you can’t even believe what you see and hear because, you know, disinformation flows. And again, what does that lead to? Yes, some people believe the disinformation, but it also leads to a more general sense that you don’t know what’s true or not because you don’t know if AI was involved in it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can you give any examples of, if not on any social media platforms, successful features or successful attempts to curb misinformation and disinformation? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Look, I think there are various individual techniques that could be used — inoculation. There’s there’s working with the platforms. And I think some platforms are more responsive to research like CCDH is and try and take steps. But the truth is that we have a systemic problem. So in 1996, Congress passed a law called Section 230. Basically, Congress said, you know, like news websites, if you run a news website, you’re responsible for the news, for the news that you publish. But the comments underneath, you’re not responsible for that legally. And social media companies came along and said, well, “why don’t we just make a business out of the comments? And then we never responsible for anything.” So they can put out their products. And even if they cause harm, if they, you know, send your daughter thousands of images about eating disorders and have she’s too fat, there’s nothing that you can do to hold them liable. And it’s time for us to think about reforming that because a healthy democracy requires a healthy information ecosystem. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Imran paints a pretty bleak picture of our social media landscape and our relationship to the truth. But what about untruths that don’t seem quite so diabolical? I mean, I admit it. The couch rumor was hilarious, even if it’s untrue. What’s the harm in reposting it? Time for another tab. Is all disinformation harmful? I asked Imran about this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t think this information is ever harmless. J.D. Vance is a vice presidential candidate. One person decides “I’m going to spread a lie about him,” and that has gotten to millions of people and changed political discourse. And then you see other candidates talking about it in their convention speeches, even in major speeches in the election. And yes, it’s a joke. And yes, it’s so absurd that you wouldn’t believe it’s necessarily true, but you wouldn’t accept it the other way round, would you? If someone said that Barack Obama wasn’t born in America, he was born in Kenya and he faked his birth certificate, which is something that happened, we all get really upset. What’s the difference exactly? And a system that allows for lies to spread at the speed of light, in fact, to get the advantage in spreading over the truth. That’s really problematic for us. It begs the question, would you want to run for election if you knew that the next week your opponent could spread a lie about you and that could destroy your reputation and be something that hangs over you and your family, your loved ones and your children for years, decades to come. And I think the reason why this particular rumor, because it was so bananas, you know, so lurid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like, yeah. He put on some gloves. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> He pulled his pants down. And he said “right, sofa.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “You kinky little sod.” And the reason why it’s so it’s so outrageous, it sort of stimulates our prurient interest. That’s why it got seen by so many people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Imran says studies show that content that violates the rules of a platform actually drives engagement. And when he says engagement, he means likes shares and other platform reactions. If you interact with a post, it doesn’t always matter if it’s a positive or negative reaction. It’s all still engagement. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If I post “the sky is blue outside in Washington DC,” everyone’s going to go “alright whatever dude.” If I post “the sky outside is purple,” or if I post that this morning I had salamanders for breakfast, you’re going to get a lot of engagement. And so what it says is that the closer you get to breaking social rules or even the rules of the platform, the more violative the content is, the more engagement it gets. And it’s really stark. You get very, very low engagement until you get right to the end of breaking the rules and then it shoots up. Wow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So it seems like there’s almost an incentive, an engagement incentive to spread disinformation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because of the second part of the equation, which is that engagement equals amplification. So if you if you get high engagement, the algorithms say, hey, you know, there’s all this content that people post billion people, billions and billions of posts every week, how are we going to decide what we’re going to show people because we can’t share a billion people’s content simultaneously. So we’re going to elevate some content and we’re going to reduce the frequency of some content. And its the elevation is given to that high engagement content because it keeps people on platforms because it’s got high engagement. And so therefore, you can show them more ads. And these are really just advertising companies. That’s all that these platforms make money from is advertising. So how can we keep eyeballs on there for as long as possible? Pump the highest engagement content. So that creates an incentive to the platforms to elevate and engage in content, which they know is the stuff that’s basically BS — lies, hate, everything else. But it also gives an incentive to the people who are producing the content. If you want to be seen by lots of people, if you want to go viral, then post bullshit because bullshit is the ultimate arbiter of virality. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Of course, disinformation isn’t the only content that goes viral. Still, it’s highly engaging. As of last year, posts containing misinformation aren’t allowed to be monetized on X. But that doesn’t stop them from spreading. You know, this couch example is a relatively lighthearted example, but this spread from a tiny account with 1700 followers. But what are the more serious ramifications of, you know, anyone with no following, being able to spread a lie? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, I don’t want to get too serious about it, but the truth is that that democracy itself is under threat by this phenomenon, not on an individual meme by meme basis, but a systems-wide basis. If people just give up on the truth, apathy is the natural next step. And that’s where tyranny takes hold. And civilizations do collapse. You know, American democracy is complex and underpins everything else. The performance of our economy, you know, our ability to have this this rich tapestry within our society of identities of people with backgrounds, the melting pot that is America is reliant upon certain truths being inalienable. When truth disappears, I think that America will collapse, could collapse very, very fast. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It seems like it’s very difficult for like a normal person who isn’t a journalist like myself or, you know, an expert in this like you to know who to trust and who not to trust. Like, how do you think people should address misinformation online? How do they make themselves less susceptible to it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, I mean, I’m also a human being that has a family and I have things I like doing outside of work, so I can’t be bothered working out what’s true or not. And I’m not gonna fact check everything I see. That would be the most depressing life on the planet. If everything you heard, You have to go and fact check it. Holy moly. That would be. It would be unbelievable. Like how we live our lives. So, I mean, to my mind, use social media for what it’s good at: making you laugh. But don’t treat it like a serious place to get information. I mean, it’s like junk food. Every now and then, it’s fine. You know, it’s kind of great to have a Popeye’s spicy chicken sandwich, but you can’t have that for every meal. Right. Because it’s going to make you incredibly unhealthy. And that’s why our information diet is to us, we’ve become too reliant on fast information from social media. And, you know, our brains are starting to rot as a result. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. These are all systemic issues that we’re dealing with here still. We all have choices to make as individuals. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’ve got to think about our own actions like we’ve learned when it comes to climate change and to our eco- to our physical ecosystem that each of us has a responsibility as well. That’s part of our responsibility, is making sure that we don’t contribute the pollution of our information ecosystem. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so within the close confines of my group chats, I’ll probably keep sending memes about the election, but at least I’ll think twice about posting them publicly since according to Imran: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you want to have it in the back of your mind that every time you hear JD Vance say something that you don’t agree with, just feel free to think to yourself. “But you are couch f*****.” But saying it, publishing it, spreading it is undermining our democracy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And as my responsibility to the information ecosystem, maybe I’ll community note myself in the group chat. Just to be safe. That’s it for this deep dive. Let’s close these tabs. Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported in hosted by me, Morgan Sung. Our managing producer is Chris Egusa. Our producer is Maya Cueva. Jen Chien edited the series and is KQED’s director of podcasts. Original Music and Sound Design by Chris Egusa. Additional music from APM. Audience Engagement Support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Director. Holly Kernan is our Chief Content Officer. A special shout out to the team at Political Breakdown for letting us share our episodes on their feed. We’d love to hear what you think about the series. Hit us up at podcasts at KQED.org. That’s podcast with “s.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "In this episode of Close All Tabs, host Morgan Sung dives into the world of viral political memes with TechCrunch senior writer Amanda Silberling, unraveling the origins of the infamous JD Vance “couch rumor.” What began as a seemingly frivolous post on X about the Republican VP nominee spiraled into a meme with real-world consequences, shifting the tone of the race. Morgan is also joined by Imran Ahmed, CEO of the Center for Countering Digital Hate, to explore the fragile line between satire and disinformation in modern politics.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>This episode was originally published October 19, 2024. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode of Close All Tabs, host Morgan Sung dives into the world of viral political memes with TechCrunch senior writer Amanda Silberling, unraveling the origins of the infamous JD Vance “couch rumor.” What began as a seemingly frivolous post on X about the Republican VP nominee spiraled into a meme with real-world consequences, shifting the tone of the race. Morgan is also joined by Imran Ahmed, CEO of the Center for Countering Digital Hate, to explore the fragile line between satire and disinformation in modern politics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC4708563623\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Please note that this episode contains explicit language and adult themes, so listen with care. The way disinformation spreads online can lead to pretty horrifying real world consequences. We saw that in September when false claims about immigrants eating pets in Springfield, Ohio, led to widespread disruptions and bomb threats. Now, the people spreading those claims face legal action. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 1 A nonprofit has filed charges against former President Donald Trump and his running mate, Senator J.D. Vance, accusing them of spreading false claims about immigrants in Springfield. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’ll have to wait and see if those charges stick to the former president and his V.P. running mate. But back over the summer, Vance himself was the subject of a disinformation campaign that felt far less dire. Remember that rumor that went around about J.D. Vance and his appreciation for couches? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Waters:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And if you’re going to accuse someone of having sex with a couch, you better have video. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was Fox News host Jesse Watters defending Vance, looking back and more closely at what seems like a silly rumor can actually tell us a lot about how disinformation spreads online. This all started when a shit post on the social media platform X claimed that Vance admitted to I don’t know, let’s call it “recreational couch penetration” in his 2016 memoir, Hillbilly Elegy. This one off joke blew up online, breaking through Meme Twitter and into the mainstream news cycle. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Speaker 1:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You may be wondering why you’re seeing a ton of memes and posts about Donald Trump’s VP pick, J.D. Vance, and his sectional relationship with his. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Speaker 2:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Couch, and J.D. Vance talking about childless cat ladies and having sex with a c ouch. You watched? Yes, You heard that correctly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Suddenly, people are clamoring to buy a copy of Hillbilly Elegy just to check if it was real. Google searches for J.D. Vance and Couch skyrocketed. Even Tim Walz joined in with a certified dad joke. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tim Walz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I got to tell you, I can’t wait to debate the guy. That is if he’s willing to get off the couch and show up. So. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Disinformation has always been rampant on Twitter or now X. But under Elon Musk’s leadership, it’s a lot easier to spread misleading information and outright lies. How did X allow this raunchy post which is proven to be untrue, to spread so far? And where do we draw the line between a funny meme and harmful disinformation? This is Close All Tabs a special series from KQED. I’m Morgan Sung. I’m a tech journalist. Your chronically online friend, and your guide to the weirdest and most fascinating corners of the Internet. Together, we’re diving into election memes, disinformation campaigns, political influencers, and we’ll open as many browser tabs as it takes — all to better understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Okay, let’s dive in. Open new tab. How did the couch rumor go mainstream? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Silberling:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I saw the rumor first like the day that Donald Trump announced that J.D. Vance was his running mate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is Amanda Silberling. She’s a reporter for TechCrunch, the co-host of the Internet Culture podcast Wow If True. And she is very online, which means she knows a lot about memes. And right after news broke that J.D. Vance was Trump’s VP pick, Amanda’s friend, who’s also a reporter, sent her a screenshot of an X post. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Silberling:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Which said, quote, I can’t say for sure, but might be the first VP pick to have admitted in a New York Times bestseller to f****** an inside out latex glove shoved between two couch cushions. Parentheses. Vance Hillbilly Elegy. Page 179 to 181, which came from an account with 1700 followers on Twitter, which is like not a lot for something of this magnitude. Like this is like a mid-level, like, fandom account on Twitter. And I remember seeing this and I was with another friend and I like, turned to them and was like, “Oh my God, this is so funny. Like, can you believe it?” Because it does sound like something that you would write about in like a coming of age memoir about growing up in like rural Ohio slash Kentucky. I don’t remember exactly, but like, it’s like something that’s kind of plausible to happen. So my first reaction was, “Haha, this is so funny.” And my next reaction was, “Wait a minute, I’m a journalist. Is this real?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Amanda went digging to see for herself if the couch story was real. So here’s page 180 of Hillbilly Elegy, narrated by Vance himself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Years later, I looked at my wedding party of six groomsmen… To a man. All of them had found careers outside of their hometowns, and none of them had any interest in ever going back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And no couch f******. So Amanda moved on with her life and forgot about the rumor. A week later, Joe Biden dropped out of the race and endorsed Kamala Harris. Kamala-themed fan edits a means and pictures of homemade merch flooded X. And then the couch rumor started floating around again. Someone tweeted a picture of what they said was a page from Hillbilly Elegy. This is how I first saw the the rumor. And I was like, “I guess I looks pretty legit.” Like, it looks like something my old college professor would send out like some PDF scan of our reading for the class. But how would you describe it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Silberling:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s slightly pixilated, but it’s very legible and it is slightly off centered, which I think it’s very it’s giving like “TA scanned this 20 minutes before class” vibes. Do we want to see what dramatic reading of that page. Yeah. Years later, I looked at my wedding party of six groomsmen and realized that every single one of them had, like me, f***** a couch. All of us had found ourselves beheld by the eroticism of two cushions side by side with that lush, inviting valley between. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the middle of the night. Amanda woke up to a text from the friend who sent her the original couch post. This time she sent the screenshot of the fake page. Was this real? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Silberling:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And then I’m up for like an hour being like, “I need a prove this is fake. Like, this can’t be real.” And basically everybody was replying to it like, “Oh my God, this is in my copy too. Like, I have the first edition and it’s here like, Wow, it’s so crazy.” And like, these people are all in on the joke. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Silberling:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right? I mean, there is like a tick tock going around of a guy being like, “I work at Barnes Noble’s and I and like, this page is just blank.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Speaker 3:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And the funniest thing is that in the original book there a whole scene where he f***** a couch. It is supposed to be pages 178. Right? Tell me why it’s a blank page. They cut it. They cut the couch f*****. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But at the same time, like, it’s like there are so many people who don’t, I guess have meme literacy or shitpost literacy who are just taking it as fact. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Silberling:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. And then the AP publishes a story called “No J.D. Vance did not have Sex with a couch.” And it’s one of their like AP fact check stories. And of course, everyone is like, “Wow, this is so funny. What a great headline.” My reaction to it was like, “Wow, I will never write a headline as good as No, J.D. Vance did not have sex with a couch.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But then the AP retracted the article, which only fanned the flames. It’s pretty rare for newsrooms to just take down the story if there are corrections or if the reporting just didn’t meet editorial standards, they’ll usually leave it up. But then add a note at the top or sometimes bottom of the page. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Silberling:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Pulling a story is like the nuclear button, like the the Oppenheimer move for lack a better word. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. And like the fact that they retracted it made people believe the story even more because they were like, well, it must be true then. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Silberling:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And all they said about it was the story which did not go out on the wire to our customers, didn’t go through our standard editing process. We are looking into how it happened. And then like this just gives people on the Internet more room to speculate. And the answer that people come up with is “maybe the reason why they pulled the article is because we cannot definitively prove that JD Vance did not write in Hillbilly Elegy that he f***** a Couch, but we don’t know what he was doing.” Like, I don’t know, like we don’t have cameras on him full time watching all the weird stuff he did when he was an adolescent boy in like, Middle America. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Amanda said that according to Google Trends, searches for “J.D. Vance” and “Couch” spiked after the AP took down the article. But before they even publish that story, massive blue wave liberal accounts on X repost reposted the couch affair as fact. Okay, let’s talk about how this meme spread. New tab. Who was reposting the couch meme? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Silberling:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When I was looking at who was actually talking about this before the AP reported on it, it was like MSNBC parents and like Vote Blue no matter who, just kind of like the very like pink hat at the Women’s March kind of liberals like these people have millions of followers and they have a wide influence. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Even Democratic politicians who had stuck by Michelle Obama’s “when they go low we go high” mentality up until now, were cracking couch jokes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elizabeth Warren:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Trust Donald Trump and JD vance to look out for your family? Shoot, I wouldn’t trust them to move my couch. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But Amanda says one poster in particular caught her attention. Dan Savage, the longtime sex columnist and LGBT rights activist. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Silberling:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I thought it was so interesting that Dan Savage, of all people, was one of the spreaders of it because he’s the Santorum guy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In 2003, Republican then-Senator Rick Santorum made really deeply offensive comments comparing gay sex to beastiality. Dan Savage wrote a column denouncing the homophobic comments and then took it a step further. He held a competition to coin a new definition for the word Santorum. You can look up the winning definition for yourself. But I can tell you that it has something to do with bodily fluids. This new definition was so popular that whenever someone searched for Santorum, that’s what they’d find at the top of their results. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 2:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of the top search results for Santorum on Google is a site called Spreading santorum.com. And it’s got a big brown blotch on it. And we can’t say more than that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Silberling:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And because 2003, like search engine optimization is like wizardry, this is not something that there are professionals doing. So this basically tricked Google into thinking that the definition of Santorum was legitimate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> More than 20 years later, it’s still at the top of Google results. And that’s why Dan Savage’s response to the couch rumors really stuck with Amanda. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Silberling:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> He’s been trying to manipulate the Internet against Republican candidates for like 20 years. He knows what he’s doing. He posted one thing about the couch f*****, and then in a separate tweet, he was like, “LOL, this is definitely not real, but whatever.” I don’t know what exactly he posted, but he seemed to know he was in on the joke. So I don’t know. I mean, I think this is why the couch f***** incident is so interesting to me because I do think it falls in a moral gray area where, like, I simultaneously think it’s really funny, but I also think it sets a bad precedent. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s important to note here that the couch rumor started on and spread on X. Other mainstream social media sites at least try to crack down on fake news and hate speech. But X has become a hotbed for disinformation. Brazil actually banned the site earlier this year over its refusal to stop the spread of political disinformation. Bot counts are spreading conspiracy theories and sowing discord ahead of elections around the world, like anti-migrant great replacement posts in the United Kingdom or in Rwanda, hundreds of accounts suddenly sharing messages in support of the incumbent president. Here in the U.S., we have those false claims of pet eating in Ohio. And both Donald Trump and Elon Musk have tweeted AI generated images with no attribution. Why does this site in particular breed disinformation? It thrives on X. We’ll open a new tab on that after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what is up with X and disinformation? Let’s open a new tab. X’s disinformation problem. It wasn’t always this bad. Disinformation existed on Twitter before, but the site made active efforts to curb it. They banned political advertising, had active moderators and rolled out features to report election misinformation. But that all changed in 2022 when Musk took over to get into this. I reached out to Imran Ahmed. He’s the CEO and founder of the Center for Countering Digital Hate or CCDH, an international nonprofit organization tackling hate speech and disinformation on social media. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s cost free for social media platforms to be the primary vector of hate and disinformation. There’s no other industry in America — there’s no publisher that cannot be held liable for what they publish — apart from social media companies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Imran says the CCDH wants to change that. But the organization has been criticized by conservatives who claim that they promote censorship. X actually tried to sue the CCDH for loss of revenue after the organization reported on hate speech and disinformation on the platform. A federal judge dismissed the lawsuit this year and ironically said that X was the one trying to punish free speech. Imran says the platform actually incentivizes disinformation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So it would help to start by defining the terms. Misinformation is is wrong information, right? But disinformation, which is another term that people will have heard being used, that’s intentional and therefore it goes beyond being wrong to lying. And quite often, the bulk of the stuff that’s being posted is actually people reposting or engaging with or repeating disinformation. So that’s the bulk of it is misinformation. It’s people who are just wrong, who may have swallowed the initial lie, which was spread by someone who was doing it with quite distinct intent. And in this election, we’ve seen a continuation, if not expansion on some platforms like X of the volume of disinformation and misinformation. And it’s the confidence with which disinformation actors are able to both post freely without hindrance, but also that are amplified by the platform’s own algorithms which give the advantage to contentious information, disinformation, hate that generates an emotional reaction from most people. And it’s that engagement that they’ve realized keeps people on the platforms arguing and shouting at each other, screaming at each other, sometimes trying to trying to stop people from spreading hate and lies. That’s the stuff that they’ve realized is so profitable to them. So we have seen that not only about actors becoming more sophisticated in using these platforms, but the platforms themselves are becoming weaker at enforcing their own rules. So it will surprise you to know that since 2016, things have actually gotten worse, not better, at the platforms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, you mentioned 2016. That was actually my next question, but that seemed to be the turning point for misinformation and disinformation, which had always existed online, but in more fringe areas of the Internet. But that seemed like the turning point for for that to go mainstream and like break into, you know, where everyone else was on the Internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, look, I think in that election in that year, a number of bad actors realize that these platforms are completely vulnerable. Like. I think people in the past have thought the platforms try their best to clean up this stuff. That was the year that we realized that, and it’s because of a series of events. You have the U.S. elections where there was a vast amount of disinformation flowing and there was foreign state involvement. But for me as a British person, you know, in the U.K. back then, we’d just had the Brexit referendum where we’d seen a vast amount of disinformation flowing through in the country targeting Black and Muslim communities with with lies. We’d seen a massive rise of anti-Semitism on the political left in the UK. We’ve seen a political assassination which is unprecedented in the UK of my colleague and my friend Jo Cox, MP. So we’d seen these things happening and there were these fractures happening all over politics, all over the world. And 2016 was the year when we realized, Holy moly, it’s not just happening in one place, it’s happening everywhere simultaneously. And when something happens everywhere simultaneously, that’s because it’s not down to one bad actor. It’s down to the system being broken. Right. It’s like if if an iceberg melts, does anyone say, well, that’s just that the iceberg decided to melt? I don’t know why, guys. It’s not. It’s because of something called climate change. And that’s fundamentally changing our atmosphere, changing our planet, the topography, the underneath the systems. Something more fundamental is happening. And that’s the year that we realized. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right? The year we realized we had to allow these social media giants to operate unchecked. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. It’s it’s the year that we realized that disinformation was a real systemic global problem that was destabilizing democracy and rolling back our ability to have cohesive communities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I know that misinformation and disinformation had existed on Twitter for a long time, particularly in 2016, but it seemed like following 2016, Twitter made some effort to curb it, you know, whether by installing reporting systems or stricter moderation. But under Musk’s leadership, X has rolled back a significant amount of that. Can you talk about how misinformation and disinformation has worsened since Musk’s takeover? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well Musk did three things when he took over. First of all, he signaled to people that you can say and do whatever you want on our platform. And, you know, we showed that that led in the week after he took over the number of times the N-word was used on X tripled compared to when it was when it was Twitter. So there was a tripling in the usage. And, you know, we’ve seen disinformation increase substantially. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Imran says they’ve also seen that so-called blue checks are more likely to post disinformation. And by blue check, he’s talking about the people who pay for X premium, the monthly subscription service that comes with a suite of special features, including a verified checkmark. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because they get that additional algorithmic boost in visibility. So we’re seeing more and more disinformation in our feed. Then the second thing he did was let back onto the platform tens of thousands of people who’ve been banned previously for being serial violators of the rules. And Twitter still has rules, so X still has rules on the platform. They have to because no one would advertise there if it was completely you know, if if there was no rules at all. The third thing he did was unveil himself as the chief disinformation officer of Twitter by spreading disinformation himself. I mean, we did a study showing that 50 of his posts about election disinformation have actually reached an audience of 1.2 billion views. And that is deeply disturbing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> X rolled back many of Twitter’s existing features to curb misinformation, but at least it kept community notes. Community notes for those who don’t know allows users to add their own fact checking that will appear at the bottom of the post. According to X, over 500,000 users contribute to community notes. But critics point out that it can’t replace a paid trained moderation team. What are your thoughts and community notes? I mean, that’s the one feature he’s added. But you know, it puts the onus on the users to moderate themselves to fact check themselves. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I don’t think it’s a bad idea. I mean, I think is quite innovative, and quite clever, but it’s not the solution. I mean, the solution to to everything is to have like moderation, to have a reporting platform. So you can report posts, someone has a look at it if it’s bad, you know, to ban people that that are really problematic. Like, you know, it takes effort to keep a community healthy and real debate requires healthy — it requires a healthy community in which everyone feels they can express their views. A debate is not someone posting the N-word to you 500 times after you post nonstop. That’s what happens on X. It is. It’s just is not conducive to the public discourse that we need in a healthy democracy. So I do think that we have this this particular systemic problem on X. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Imran says a proliferation of generative AI, including Grok — X’s own AI chat bot and image generator — has decreased the cost of producing disinformation. That makes the truth even more difficult to discern. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It used to be that you can’t believe something unless you see it, see or hear it yourself. Well, now you can’t even believe what you see and hear because, you know, disinformation flows. And again, what does that lead to? Yes, some people believe the disinformation, but it also leads to a more general sense that you don’t know what’s true or not because you don’t know if AI was involved in it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can you give any examples of, if not on any social media platforms, successful features or successful attempts to curb misinformation and disinformation? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Look, I think there are various individual techniques that could be used — inoculation. There’s there’s working with the platforms. And I think some platforms are more responsive to research like CCDH is and try and take steps. But the truth is that we have a systemic problem. So in 1996, Congress passed a law called Section 230. Basically, Congress said, you know, like news websites, if you run a news website, you’re responsible for the news, for the news that you publish. But the comments underneath, you’re not responsible for that legally. And social media companies came along and said, well, “why don’t we just make a business out of the comments? And then we never responsible for anything.” So they can put out their products. And even if they cause harm, if they, you know, send your daughter thousands of images about eating disorders and have she’s too fat, there’s nothing that you can do to hold them liable. And it’s time for us to think about reforming that because a healthy democracy requires a healthy information ecosystem. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Imran paints a pretty bleak picture of our social media landscape and our relationship to the truth. But what about untruths that don’t seem quite so diabolical? I mean, I admit it. The couch rumor was hilarious, even if it’s untrue. What’s the harm in reposting it? Time for another tab. Is all disinformation harmful? I asked Imran about this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t think this information is ever harmless. J.D. Vance is a vice presidential candidate. One person decides “I’m going to spread a lie about him,” and that has gotten to millions of people and changed political discourse. And then you see other candidates talking about it in their convention speeches, even in major speeches in the election. And yes, it’s a joke. And yes, it’s so absurd that you wouldn’t believe it’s necessarily true, but you wouldn’t accept it the other way round, would you? If someone said that Barack Obama wasn’t born in America, he was born in Kenya and he faked his birth certificate, which is something that happened, we all get really upset. What’s the difference exactly? And a system that allows for lies to spread at the speed of light, in fact, to get the advantage in spreading over the truth. That’s really problematic for us. It begs the question, would you want to run for election if you knew that the next week your opponent could spread a lie about you and that could destroy your reputation and be something that hangs over you and your family, your loved ones and your children for years, decades to come. And I think the reason why this particular rumor, because it was so bananas, you know, so lurid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like, yeah. He put on some gloves. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> He pulled his pants down. And he said “right, sofa.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “You kinky little sod.” And the reason why it’s so it’s so outrageous, it sort of stimulates our prurient interest. That’s why it got seen by so many people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Imran says studies show that content that violates the rules of a platform actually drives engagement. And when he says engagement, he means likes shares and other platform reactions. If you interact with a post, it doesn’t always matter if it’s a positive or negative reaction. It’s all still engagement. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If I post “the sky is blue outside in Washington DC,” everyone’s going to go “alright whatever dude.” If I post “the sky outside is purple,” or if I post that this morning I had salamanders for breakfast, you’re going to get a lot of engagement. And so what it says is that the closer you get to breaking social rules or even the rules of the platform, the more violative the content is, the more engagement it gets. And it’s really stark. You get very, very low engagement until you get right to the end of breaking the rules and then it shoots up. Wow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So it seems like there’s almost an incentive, an engagement incentive to spread disinformation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because of the second part of the equation, which is that engagement equals amplification. So if you if you get high engagement, the algorithms say, hey, you know, there’s all this content that people post billion people, billions and billions of posts every week, how are we going to decide what we’re going to show people because we can’t share a billion people’s content simultaneously. So we’re going to elevate some content and we’re going to reduce the frequency of some content. And its the elevation is given to that high engagement content because it keeps people on platforms because it’s got high engagement. And so therefore, you can show them more ads. And these are really just advertising companies. That’s all that these platforms make money from is advertising. So how can we keep eyeballs on there for as long as possible? Pump the highest engagement content. So that creates an incentive to the platforms to elevate and engage in content, which they know is the stuff that’s basically BS — lies, hate, everything else. But it also gives an incentive to the people who are producing the content. If you want to be seen by lots of people, if you want to go viral, then post bullshit because bullshit is the ultimate arbiter of virality. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Of course, disinformation isn’t the only content that goes viral. Still, it’s highly engaging. As of last year, posts containing misinformation aren’t allowed to be monetized on X. But that doesn’t stop them from spreading. You know, this couch example is a relatively lighthearted example, but this spread from a tiny account with 1700 followers. But what are the more serious ramifications of, you know, anyone with no following, being able to spread a lie? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, I don’t want to get too serious about it, but the truth is that that democracy itself is under threat by this phenomenon, not on an individual meme by meme basis, but a systems-wide basis. If people just give up on the truth, apathy is the natural next step. And that’s where tyranny takes hold. And civilizations do collapse. You know, American democracy is complex and underpins everything else. The performance of our economy, you know, our ability to have this this rich tapestry within our society of identities of people with backgrounds, the melting pot that is America is reliant upon certain truths being inalienable. When truth disappears, I think that America will collapse, could collapse very, very fast. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It seems like it’s very difficult for like a normal person who isn’t a journalist like myself or, you know, an expert in this like you to know who to trust and who not to trust. Like, how do you think people should address misinformation online? How do they make themselves less susceptible to it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, I mean, I’m also a human being that has a family and I have things I like doing outside of work, so I can’t be bothered working out what’s true or not. And I’m not gonna fact check everything I see. That would be the most depressing life on the planet. If everything you heard, You have to go and fact check it. Holy moly. That would be. It would be unbelievable. Like how we live our lives. So, I mean, to my mind, use social media for what it’s good at: making you laugh. But don’t treat it like a serious place to get information. I mean, it’s like junk food. Every now and then, it’s fine. You know, it’s kind of great to have a Popeye’s spicy chicken sandwich, but you can’t have that for every meal. Right. Because it’s going to make you incredibly unhealthy. And that’s why our information diet is to us, we’ve become too reliant on fast information from social media. And, you know, our brains are starting to rot as a result. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. These are all systemic issues that we’re dealing with here still. We all have choices to make as individuals. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’ve got to think about our own actions like we’ve learned when it comes to climate change and to our eco- to our physical ecosystem that each of us has a responsibility as well. That’s part of our responsibility, is making sure that we don’t contribute the pollution of our information ecosystem. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so within the close confines of my group chats, I’ll probably keep sending memes about the election, but at least I’ll think twice about posting them publicly since according to Imran: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Imran Ahmed:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you want to have it in the back of your mind that every time you hear JD Vance say something that you don’t agree with, just feel free to think to yourself. “But you are couch f*****.” But saying it, publishing it, spreading it is undermining our democracy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And as my responsibility to the information ecosystem, maybe I’ll community note myself in the group chat. Just to be safe. That’s it for this deep dive. Let’s close these tabs. Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported in hosted by me, Morgan Sung. Our managing producer is Chris Egusa. Our producer is Maya Cueva. Jen Chien edited the series and is KQED’s director of podcasts. Original Music and Sound Design by Chris Egusa. Additional music from APM. Audience Engagement Support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Director. Holly Kernan is our Chief Content Officer. A special shout out to the team at Political Breakdown for letting us share our episodes on their feed. We’d love to hear what you think about the series. Hit us up at podcasts at KQED.org. That’s podcast with “s.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"marketplace": {
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
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"masters-of-scale": {
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},
"mindshift": {
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"order": 12
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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"onourwatch": {
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"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
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},
"pbs-newshour": {
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},
"perspectives": {
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"order": 14
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"info": "The economy explained. Imagine you could call up a friend and say, Meet me at the bar and tell me what's going on with the economy. Now imagine that's actually a fun evening.",
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"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/planetmoney.jpg",
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"politicalbreakdown": {
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"title": "Political Breakdown",
"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
"airtime": "THU 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Political-Breakdown-2024-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"order": 5
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"possible": {
"id": "possible",
"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Possible-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.possible.fm/",
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"source": "Possible"
},
"link": "/radio/program/possible",
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"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/730YpdUSNlMyPQwNnyjp4k"
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},
"pri-the-world": {
"id": "pri-the-world",
"title": "PRI's The World: Latest Edition",
"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 2pm-3pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-World-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
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},
"radiolab": {
"id": "radiolab",
"title": "Radiolab",
"info": "A two-time Peabody Award-winner, Radiolab is an investigation told through sounds and stories, and centered around one big idea. In the Radiolab world, information sounds like music and science and culture collide. Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, the show is designed for listeners who demand skepticism, but appreciate wonder. WNYC Studios is the producer of other leading podcasts including Freakonomics Radio, Death, Sex & Money, On the Media and many more.",
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