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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How much does your own AI use matter? With all the warnings about AI’s adverse impact on the environment, it can be tough to understand what that means at the individual level. In this episode, Morgan breaks down the hidden costs of generative AI into something more relatable: microwave time. She’s joined by MIT Technology Review reporters Casey Crownhart and James O’Donnell, who spent months investigating how much energy and water AI systems actually use.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together, they unpack how AI models are trained and which ones are more resource-intensive, what effect the expansion of AI data centers has on local energy grids and just how much electricity it takes when we ask AI to generate text, images and videos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3471727862\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/author/casey-crownhart/\">Casey Crownhart\u003c/a>, senior climate reporter at MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/author/james-odonnell/\">James O’Donnell\u003c/a>, senior AI reporter at MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/05/20/1116327/ai-energy-usage-climate-footprint-big-tech/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We did the math on AI’s energy footprint. Here’s the story you haven’t heard.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Crownhart and James O’Donnell, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://huggingface.co/blog/sasha/ai-energy-score-v2\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI Energy Score v2: Refreshed Leaderboard, now with Reasoning ?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>Sasha Luccioni and Boris Gamazaychikov, \u003ci>Hugging Face\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/11/06/1127579/ai-footprint/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stop worrying about your AI footprint. Look at the big picture instead.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Crownhart, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MIT Technology Review \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/report/763080/google-ai-gemini-water-energy-emissions-study\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Google says a typical AI text prompt only uses 5 drops of water — experts say that’s misleading\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Justine Calma, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You may have heard this one warning over and over recently. AI is bad for the environment. It’s using up all our clean water. It’s draining the power grids. It’s polluting our one precious world. But how? Let’s start with a video that fooled me a couple of months ago: bunnies on a trampoline. This video has like 250 million views on TikTok.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bouncing sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a nighttime video, so it’s pretty dark and grainy. It looks like it could be in some suburban backyard. We see six or seven curious rabbits hopping onto the edge of a trampoline. Three of them move bravely toward the center and test a few jumps. Suddenly, all of the bunnies are bouncing up and down. It’s absolutely delightful. I mean, it’s bunnies on a trampoline. The person who posted it said they caught this moment on their ring camera. But my delight was cut short when I realized that one of the bunnies disappeared midair. The entire video was AI generated. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">According to researchers, one five-second video, like this one, generated using one of top-of-the-line open source AI models, uses about 3.4 million joules. Joules are the standard unit to measure energy. I’ll say that again. One five-second video uses 3.4 million joules to generate. Now, what does that mean to the average person who probably doesn’t measure their day in joules? Well, MIT Technology Review published a report on AI energy use. For that report, Casey Crownhart, who covers the climate, and James O’Donnell, who covers AI, did the math to translate that energy usage into something accessible. Here’s Casey.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One thing we really set out to do with this project was be able to answer that question for people who are using AI in their lives and wanna really understand what the energy footprint looks like. So we looked at a lot of things in our story. We also used distance on an e-bike, light bulbs, electric vehicles, but we found that the microwave was something that most people have experience with and it was units that sort of made sense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As part of this project, Casey and James worked with researchers to figure out how much AI generation really costs in microwave time. So that video of the bunnies on the trampoline, let’s say that five second video cost 3.4 million joules. That’s the equivalent of running the microwave for about an hour. You can get 30 bags of popcorn out of that if you’re lucky. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The video of the bunnies on the trampoline was just one of dozens of AI-generated videos that I happen to scroll by every day. There are the videos of cats playing the violin, the physically impossible firework shows that my older family members keep sending the group chat, the many totally inappropriate videos of deep fake celebrities, the Facebook slop bait of animals rescuing old people from natural disasters, the AI- generated influencers shilling drop shipped products. Like, I could go on forever. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The reality is that all of this content that’s being generated, seemingly 24-7, comes at a huge cost, energy-wise. Slop is literally draining our resources. And that’s not even accounting for the constant ChatGPT queries or the flood of image generation prompts every hour of every day, and that is only what we see produced by AI. There’s a lot going on in the backend that also takes up a ton of energy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In our reporting, we found that, you know, those different use cases that can come with very different energy footprints. If you add it all up, ultimately, it can be significant. It’s probably a relatively small part of your total energy footprint, but it is definitely something that I think people are right to be thinking about in this new age.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Concern is growing about AI’s toll on the environment. And yet, AI companies would have you believe that their products are indispensable and that their impact is manageable. So, what’s the truth? How do we know what to believe? And what, if anything, should we do about it? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically-online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Casey and James spent six months crunching the numbers to give us some real world comparisons for the amount of energy it really takes every time you type up a prompt. This was actually more complicated than it seems. The companies that run the most popular models aren’t the most upfront about the numbers. So the stats that we do have are based on the AI companies that are a bit more open. Casey and James worked with researchers at the University of Michigan’s ML Energy Initiative as well as researchers at Hugging Face’s AI Energy Score Project. Hugging Face is a platform that allows users to share AI tools and data sets. With the help of the researchers, Casey and James were able to get under the hood of a pretty closed off industry, which they’ll break down for us today. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The explosion of AI use comes with many impacts, societal, economic, public health, and so none of them are equally distributed in terms of harm. But today, we’re just focusing on the environmental cost. And speaking of cost, let’s open our first tab. How much energy does a query cost? Let’s start with a little AI 101. When we talk about the environmental impact and energy use, where is all of this computing actually taking place? MIT Technology Review’s James O’Donnell broke it down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The computing is really taking place in buildings called data centers, which there’s about 3000 of them, uh, around the country. There’s even more as you go worldwide and really to visualize this, these are just like monolithic, huge, boring looking buildings that don’t have any windows or anything interesting on the outside and inside are just racks and racks of computers and chips and servers, crunching a lot of numbers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What we call artificial intelligence has existed in some form since the 1950s. But the technology that we call AI today is very different. There are many types that we now lump together under the AI umbrella, which all have different energy requirements. But for this deep dive, when we say AI, we’re referring to generative AI, specifically, the models that produce content based on a human entering a prompt. They include large language models, or LLMs, like ChatGPT and Claude and Gemini. When it comes to generative AI models, there are typically two different processes involved: training and inference. These also factor into the total energy use.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So training is what you do when you want to build an AI model from scratch, from nothing and you, you have a large language model that is only going to be as smart as the data that you feed it. So training is basically the phase where you’re taking massive amounts of data. Normally this is a lot of language and text, which could be everything from the internet, could be every book that’s ever been written, uh, regardless of if these companies have the legal right to access that data, but they’re putting a bunch of data into this AI model. And the AI model is basically learning how to create better and better guesses of the text that it outputs. So it’s learning to generate texts, to string words together, to string sentences together and paragraphs together that sound realistic and accurate. And it’s doing that by noticing patterns of what words go together in this large data set.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So training is sort of the number crunching of feeding all of that data into an AI model and at the end, it spits out this model that has learned millions and millions of parameters, we call them, basically like knobs on an AI model that help the model understand the connections between different words. And at the end, you have this model that can generate text.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A lot of electricity is used in the process of training that AI model. Years ago, that was like, when I say years ago, maybe two or three years ago that was the main concern of how much energy AI was using was really in that training phase. And what Casey and I discovered in our reporting is that that has changed really significantly. So most AI companies today are, you know, they’re planning for their energy budgets to be spent more on inference.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, what is inference?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Inference is every time you ask an AI model something, so every time you ask a question or have it generate an image or a video, anytime it actually does the thing of generating something that’s called inference. And so the individual amounts of energy that are used at the time of inference can be quite small or, or sort of big. Um, but it’s really the summation of all of that, that gives you kind of the energy footprint of a given AI model.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The generated output also changes the energy usage. The more complicated the prompt, the more energy it uses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, in our reporting we looked at text, images, and video. So kind of really broadly, and again, it can still vary, even within kind of a text query, depending on how complicated your ask is. So are you asking something to rewrite the whole works of Shakespeare, but like, in pirate speak, or are you just asking for a suggestion for a recipe? The open source models that we looked at, we found that the smallest models, if you were kind of asking a sort of standard query, might use about 114 joules of electricity. That’s equivalent to roughly a 10th of a second in a microwave, so a very, very small amount of electricity. A larger text model and one of the largest text models we looked at would use a lot more, so more like 6,700 joules, that’s about eight seconds in a microwave. So again, fairly small numbers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also, the bigger the model, the more energy it uses. AI models have parameters. Like James said earlier, these are basically the adjustable knobs that allow models to make a prediction. With more parameters, AI models are more likely to generate a better response and are better equipped to handle complex requests. So, asking a chat bot, “What year did Shakespeare write Hamlet?” Is generally a less complex request than, say, “Translate all of Hamlet into pirate speak.” The smallest model that Casey and James tested had eight billion parameters. The largest had 405 billion parameters. OpenAI is pretty hush-hush about their infrastructure, but some estimate that the company’s latest model, GPT-5, is somewhere up in the trillions. So, as models get bigger, they need to run on more chips, which needs more energy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What was really surprising and what I think really stood out in our reporting was that videos, based on the models that we were looking at, used significantly more energy, so thousands of times more energy than some of the smallest text models. So one model that we looked at used about 3.4 million joules of energy. That’s about an hour of microwave time. So there’s a really wide range here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s another factor: reasoning models. Investors are all over these right now. Reasoning models are marketed as literal thinking machines that are able to break down complex problems into logical steps instead of just predicting the next answer based on the patterns it recognizes. They’re advertised to think like a human would and supposedly will become more energy efficient the smarter the model gets. One of the researchers that Casey and James worked with at Hugging Tree put this to the test.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, a lot of people are excited about this idea of reasoning models. And so when this researcher studied these and figured out whether or not they’re energy efficient, she found that a lot these reasoning models can actually use 30 times more energy than a non-reasoning model.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there’s the water usage. AI datacenters use massive quantities of water.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this is something that has been a conversation and there’s still I think, to some extent, a lot of uncertainty about. But basically, data centers use water directly for a lot cooling systems. A lot of data centers are cooled with what’s called evaporative cooling. So, you know, water evaporates to cool down the equipment. There’s also sort of indirect water use, which is a little trickier to calculate, but there’s also water that’s used in power plants. And so if you kind of think, okay, the power plant is needed to power the data center. So the water used in the power plant, you can kind of attribute to AI as well. Oftentimes the water that is required in a data center has to be very, very high quality, very pure water because you’re dealing with very sensitive equipment. And so there is this big conversation about water. Google released estimates about its water use per query as well, but kind of to sum it up, there is a pretty major water requirement and we’re starting to see that as, again, data centers are being built in places, including those that are very water stressed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that’s what we do know about AI and energy consumption. This is the usage that can be measured, even if companies aren’t the most upfront about their numbers. But what about everything else? We’re opening a new tab, after this break. Welcome back, we’re opening a new tab. What AI energy use isn’t being measured? So we’ve talked about the front and most visible uses, energy usages, generating videos, generating lists, translating Shakespeare’s text into pirate speak, right. What’s happening in the background that’s also using up energy? Like, how many times do you have to run a microwave for those processes?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I think it’s hard to know. Like since we’ve done this reporting, AI is being put into many parts of our online life and we don’t always have a lot of choice or visibility into how AI is being using used. So for example, Google famously, uh, went from just presenting you search results to then summarizing those search results with AI overviews. So now for the most part, people aren’t looking very far down that search page, they’re actually just relying on the AI overview. We would love to know how much energy is used by Google every time it creates an AI overview and the percentage of those searches that it uses overviews for, we weren’t able to get that information. Uh, Google wouldn’t share it with us. And so, you know, AI is being put into all these different parts of our online life. And I think we’ll look back on this as the sort of like simplest calculation of, of being able to estimate, you now, how much is used when you try and make a recipe or generate an image or something. But the truth is, as you point out, AI is sort of being put into everything and it’s going to be harder and harder to sort of track the footprint as that goes on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you elaborate on why this topic appears to be so divisive and so confusing for so many people having to confront their energy usage through AI?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. I have thoughts, but I’m sure Casey does too. So, you know, it’s not like asking ChatGPT a question is like, you know, polluting the earth as much as driving a 3000 mile road trip, right? Like ,we’re talking about small, relatively small numbers here, but it gets a lot of attention, I think, because public opinion for AI right now is just so abysmally low because so many people are skeptical of whether or not it’s really benefiting all of us. And I think the energy footprint is just kind of this glaring issue for people that say, like, what are we getting out of this technology, especially if it’s sort of draining us of resources.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think part of the interesting phenomenon is that AI has really like crashed onto the scene for the general public. It’s this whole kind of new thing that we’re all having to kind of reckon with, like what is this doing to our brains? What is this going to our grids? It’s I think it’s natural to question this like entirely new thing. Another thing that I think is really interesting is that, as James mentioned, this is becoming less so, but to this point, it’s kind of discreet and countable in a way that a lot of our other activity, especially online activity, isn’t. You can go out on and, you know, how many times am I messaging this thing? So I think that kind of has lended itself to the natural kind of like, well, how much does each one of these queries, what does that mean for energy?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Google recently released data on the energy footprint of its AI model, Gemini, a couple of months after you guys put out your report. What did you make of that? Like, was it helpful? Can we trust those numbers? I guess wouldn’t they be incentivized to portray themselves as very energy friendly?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it would have been nice to get these when we were reporting, but as James mentioned earlier, these companies know better than anybody what their energy footprint is. So I think there’s such value in getting some of this data. And Google had a really good technical report that went through kind of in-depth, you know, here’s where the energy is coming from this much from, you know the AI chips, this much from other processes. But I think it’s really significant what wasn’t included in that report. And what wasn’t included in the report is any sort of information about, you know, the total queries that its Gemini model gets in a day. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Google is able to point to this number and say, hey, look, this is such a small number. It’s in line with what we found for, kind of, our median text model. You know, something like a second or so in the microwave per query. But that’s, you know, for what Google says is an average or median query. You know, it’s not kind of giving us the full range, including, you now, different kind of queries that we know would take up a lot more energy. It doesn’t include image and video, which we know are more energy intensive. And ultimately we’re not able to, without that total number of, you not, how many times is this model being queried and giving responses a day? How many users, how many daily users? We don’t know the total footprint. We can only say, here’s this little number.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s talk about the energy grid. The type of energy matters, right? Like there are a lot of discussion on renewables versus fossil fuels. What might impact where that energy comes from when it comes to building data centers and maintaining them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is something that I really focused on in our reporting because as I think I put it in the piece, if we just had data centers that were hooked up to a bunch of solar panels and they ran when the sun is shining, oh, what a lovely world it would be, and I would be a lot less worried about all this. But the reality is that today, grids around the world are largely reliant on fossil fuels. So burning things like, you know, natural gas and coal to run the grid, keep the lights on. And one concern is what the grid will look like as energy demand from AI continues to rise.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So today, we see that data centers are really concentrated on the East Coast, in places like Virginia, tends to be very natural gas heavy, reliant on coal. There are data centers that are on grids that have a lot more solar and hydropower and wind, and that means that the relative climate impact of data centers in those places can be lower than in the more fossil fuel-heavy places.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I think there’s a concern that as a lot, a lot of data center come online really quickly and need more electricity added to the grid in order to run, what is being added to grid in in order support those? Right now, the overwhelming answer is natural gas. And so that means that a lot of these new data centers will come with a pretty significant climate footprint attached.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We may not know the exact amount of energy that the AI industry is actually using, but what we do know is that it’s a lot, and it is putting a strain on our already limited resources. Each individual query does cost something, and it adds up. Plus, there’s everything running in the background that we can’t measure. So what is each individual person responsible for? I mean, should we be worried about the future? Is there anything that we could actually do? Time for a new tab: does my AI footprint matter in the big picture? Luckily, Casey dove into this exact topic last year. She believes that policing individual AI usage isn’t as helpful in the grand scheme of things. Here’s why we should shift our focus, instead of putting the onus on each person to change their own behavior.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As we went through this reporting, I got a lot of questions and I had a lot of questions myself about, you know, what does this mean for me and my personal choices about AI? And again, kind of as somebody who spent a lot of time reporting on climate change, it really reminded me of the conversation around climate footprint. You know, what is my climate footprint? What should I personally do differently to help, kind of, address climate change? And what I’ve come to kind of understand through my reporting and believe is that climate change is this massive problem that goes beyond any single one of us. And there’s a really significant limit to how much our individual choices can address a global problem that is very systemic. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can compost all you want, but if only gas vehicles are available to you and that’s the only way you can get around in your community, there’s only so much you can do. And we now know that some fossil fuel funded PR campaigns helped to popularize this idea of carbon footprint to kind of shift the focus on to individuals and away from these big, powerful companies. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think that I see some parallels with AI today, you know, this attempt to kind of shift focus on, you now, well, are you using ChatGPT too many times in a day rather than what is the global impact and like, why aren’t these companies being more transparent about what the energy use of AI is on their scale. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think ultimately, you know, there are limits to this. Like if you’re making a million AI slop videos every single day, I think that’s an individual action that you could probably safely make a choice that would be better for energy use. But overall, I think we should more be using our limited time and energy in the day to push for more transparency. You know, ask for regulations around AI and what’s powering it, and just generally not be so hard on ourselves because we operate in this system where it’s increasingly hard to get away from AI. As we’ve talked about, even if you don’t choose to go onto, you know chatgpt.com, you’re often, you’re part of this AI ecosystem. So we need to be talking about what that overall system looks like and how we can change it rather than the limited power of individuals.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the biggest unanswered questions every time a data center is open is actually like, what’s the energy source going into that? And is it going to be, you know, powered with renewable sources or not? Is it just going to run 24 seven on natural gas? And so sometimes if you hyper focus on this question of your own individual footprint, it can kind of make you forget that actually there are decisions still to be made every time the data center goes up that will arguably have a bigger impact on the sort of net footprint, net emissions of it all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do we know about where the AI industry wants to take us in the future, near future, like three years from now? What do they need energy-wise or water-wise to get us there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI companies are planning for some pretty, uh, unprecedented levels of investment in, in data centers and, you know, to power all of those unprecedented levels of investment in power plants and nuclear energy and things like that. Um, I think where they want to go, uh, is to build AI models that are bigger first of all. To do that you need more and more chips and more and more power, and so there’s an incentive to just amass all of this energy and electricity. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then on the product side of it, I think these AI companies imagine that the world of AI in five years will not just be large language models that people type to and get an answer back, but that image generation and video generation and real time voice chats are kind of a part of our everyday lives. And so they’re planning for a lot more demand as well. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so you could think of this project from OpenAI and others called Stargate, which is basically a half a trillion dollars of investment into data centers that they want to pop up around the country. And I think the reason why they’re seeing success politically from this is that AI companies have framed AI as a question of national security, right? If the US wants to win this AI race against China, then the country that has the most energy is the country will create the best AI and the sort of you know, impedance to all of that is access to, to energy. And that’s why these companies have sort of made it their top priority.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and just to add to that, I mean, I think these big dreams about, you know, how big AI could get, it’s going to be a lot of electricity. So as of 2024, data centers used over 400 terawatt hours of electricity, about 1.5% of all electricity used around the world. By 2030, the International Energy Agency says that that could more than double reaching 945 terawatts. Sorry to use inscrutable units, but that’s about 3% of global electricity consumption.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is that in microwave hours? [\u003cem>Laughter\u003c/em>]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A whole lot of microwaves, so many microwaves. So I think that basically we’re seeing really significant, really fast shifts and fast growth in electricity, including in places like the US that have seen very flat electricity demand for over a decade. And so I think that this is all going to add up to really complicated effects and really complicated, kind of, effects for local communities where these data centers and where these power plants are gonna be used.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this is something I didn’t totally get before I learned more from Casey and before we started reporting on this. So data centers were doing a lot of stuff in the early 2000s, like, this is Netflix, social media, like, all sorts of streaming, but electricity going to those data centers stayed pretty flat, and it wasn’t until AI that you actually started to see a huge jump in the amount of electricity that data centers required.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most AI companies, or AI hype guys who are investing very heavily in AI companies will say something like, oh, AI can solve problems like climate change, so the energy usage is worth it. How much do you guys buy into that argument? Llike, does it hold any water?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s so much potential for all kinds of AI, again, beyond chatbots, in all kinds problems that are related to climate change, from materials discovery, finding new materials that could make better batteries or help us capture carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere, superconductors that can move electricity around super efficiently. There’s also ways that AI could be used to help the grid run more efficiently. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s really interesting research in all of these areas that I’m following very closely. But at this point, it’s all early stage. It’s all research. And I think there’s great potential for AI to be a positive force for the climate. But I think it’s absolutely irresponsible for us to punt on all of this concerns about AI’s current energy use because of some potential. Because there’s always the chance that this doesn’t work. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think in any case, the progress could be significant, but it’s not gonna be a silver bullet. So I think we need to reckon very seriously with the current energy problems that we’re seeing now, rather than try to make some future promise that may never come true, build all this infrastructure that will be online for decades to come and could change our climate forever. Just doesn’t make sense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you think the most misunderstood part of this whole energy AI use conversation is?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that there’s kind of a nuanced picture of just how important AI energy use is in context. So it is true that AI is probably a small part of your individual energy picture. And in fact, in terms of like the global energy use picture, it’s 3% in 2030. That doesn’t seem like very much. But that kind of change over such a short amount of time is going to be very significant for especially local grids where this is taking place. It will have significant impacts for climate change. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This kind of build out will definitely not go unnoticed by the climate, but I think the biggest impacts here will be faced by local communities seeing data centers going up, local communities with new fossil fuel infrastructure going up. And so all at once, this is a small fraction of individual and even global energy use, and a very, very significant trend for the energy system of the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Looking toward the future is important, but the AI industry is changing residential communities right now in real time. The data center room promises to bring jobs and economic growth, but are AI companies following through on that? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Next week, we’re taking our deep dive to one of the fastest growing hubs for AI data centers, Atlanta. But for now, let’s close all of these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was edited by Chris Hambrick and produced by Chris Egusa, who’s our senior editor and also composed our theme song and credits music. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional music by APM. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager a\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">nd Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Apple Maker Ala F99 keyboard with Greywood V3 switches and Cherry Profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nOkay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but… if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends too, or even your enemies, or frenemies. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "The Real Cost of AI Slop | KQED",
"description": "How much does your own AI use matter? With all the warnings about AI’s adverse impact on the environment, it can be tough to understand what that means at the individual level. In this episode, Morgan breaks down the hidden costs of generative AI into something more relatable: microwave time. She’s joined by MIT Technology Review reporters Casey Crownhart and James O’Donnell, who spent months investigating how much energy and water AI systems actually use. Together, they unpack how AI models are trained and which ones are more resource-intensive, what effect the expansion of AI data centers has on local energy grids and just how much electricity it takes when we ask AI to generate text, images and videos.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How much does your own AI use matter? With all the warnings about AI’s adverse impact on the environment, it can be tough to understand what that means at the individual level. In this episode, Morgan breaks down the hidden costs of generative AI into something more relatable: microwave time. She’s joined by MIT Technology Review reporters Casey Crownhart and James O’Donnell, who spent months investigating how much energy and water AI systems actually use.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together, they unpack how AI models are trained and which ones are more resource-intensive, what effect the expansion of AI data centers has on local energy grids and just how much electricity it takes when we ask AI to generate text, images and videos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3471727862\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/author/casey-crownhart/\">Casey Crownhart\u003c/a>, senior climate reporter at MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/author/james-odonnell/\">James O’Donnell\u003c/a>, senior AI reporter at MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/05/20/1116327/ai-energy-usage-climate-footprint-big-tech/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We did the math on AI’s energy footprint. Here’s the story you haven’t heard.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Crownhart and James O’Donnell, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MIT Technology Review\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://huggingface.co/blog/sasha/ai-energy-score-v2\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI Energy Score v2: Refreshed Leaderboard, now with Reasoning ?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — \u003c/span>Sasha Luccioni and Boris Gamazaychikov, \u003ci>Hugging Face\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/11/06/1127579/ai-footprint/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stop worrying about your AI footprint. Look at the big picture instead.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Crownhart, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MIT Technology Review \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/report/763080/google-ai-gemini-water-energy-emissions-study\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Google says a typical AI text prompt only uses 5 drops of water — experts say that’s misleading\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Justine Calma, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You may have heard this one warning over and over recently. AI is bad for the environment. It’s using up all our clean water. It’s draining the power grids. It’s polluting our one precious world. But how? Let’s start with a video that fooled me a couple of months ago: bunnies on a trampoline. This video has like 250 million views on TikTok.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bouncing sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a nighttime video, so it’s pretty dark and grainy. It looks like it could be in some suburban backyard. We see six or seven curious rabbits hopping onto the edge of a trampoline. Three of them move bravely toward the center and test a few jumps. Suddenly, all of the bunnies are bouncing up and down. It’s absolutely delightful. I mean, it’s bunnies on a trampoline. The person who posted it said they caught this moment on their ring camera. But my delight was cut short when I realized that one of the bunnies disappeared midair. The entire video was AI generated. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">According to researchers, one five-second video, like this one, generated using one of top-of-the-line open source AI models, uses about 3.4 million joules. Joules are the standard unit to measure energy. I’ll say that again. One five-second video uses 3.4 million joules to generate. Now, what does that mean to the average person who probably doesn’t measure their day in joules? Well, MIT Technology Review published a report on AI energy use. For that report, Casey Crownhart, who covers the climate, and James O’Donnell, who covers AI, did the math to translate that energy usage into something accessible. Here’s Casey.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One thing we really set out to do with this project was be able to answer that question for people who are using AI in their lives and wanna really understand what the energy footprint looks like. So we looked at a lot of things in our story. We also used distance on an e-bike, light bulbs, electric vehicles, but we found that the microwave was something that most people have experience with and it was units that sort of made sense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As part of this project, Casey and James worked with researchers to figure out how much AI generation really costs in microwave time. So that video of the bunnies on the trampoline, let’s say that five second video cost 3.4 million joules. That’s the equivalent of running the microwave for about an hour. You can get 30 bags of popcorn out of that if you’re lucky. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The video of the bunnies on the trampoline was just one of dozens of AI-generated videos that I happen to scroll by every day. There are the videos of cats playing the violin, the physically impossible firework shows that my older family members keep sending the group chat, the many totally inappropriate videos of deep fake celebrities, the Facebook slop bait of animals rescuing old people from natural disasters, the AI- generated influencers shilling drop shipped products. Like, I could go on forever. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The reality is that all of this content that’s being generated, seemingly 24-7, comes at a huge cost, energy-wise. Slop is literally draining our resources. And that’s not even accounting for the constant ChatGPT queries or the flood of image generation prompts every hour of every day, and that is only what we see produced by AI. There’s a lot going on in the backend that also takes up a ton of energy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In our reporting, we found that, you know, those different use cases that can come with very different energy footprints. If you add it all up, ultimately, it can be significant. It’s probably a relatively small part of your total energy footprint, but it is definitely something that I think people are right to be thinking about in this new age.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Concern is growing about AI’s toll on the environment. And yet, AI companies would have you believe that their products are indispensable and that their impact is manageable. So, what’s the truth? How do we know what to believe? And what, if anything, should we do about it? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically-online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Casey and James spent six months crunching the numbers to give us some real world comparisons for the amount of energy it really takes every time you type up a prompt. This was actually more complicated than it seems. The companies that run the most popular models aren’t the most upfront about the numbers. So the stats that we do have are based on the AI companies that are a bit more open. Casey and James worked with researchers at the University of Michigan’s ML Energy Initiative as well as researchers at Hugging Face’s AI Energy Score Project. Hugging Face is a platform that allows users to share AI tools and data sets. With the help of the researchers, Casey and James were able to get under the hood of a pretty closed off industry, which they’ll break down for us today. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The explosion of AI use comes with many impacts, societal, economic, public health, and so none of them are equally distributed in terms of harm. But today, we’re just focusing on the environmental cost. And speaking of cost, let’s open our first tab. How much energy does a query cost? Let’s start with a little AI 101. When we talk about the environmental impact and energy use, where is all of this computing actually taking place? MIT Technology Review’s James O’Donnell broke it down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The computing is really taking place in buildings called data centers, which there’s about 3000 of them, uh, around the country. There’s even more as you go worldwide and really to visualize this, these are just like monolithic, huge, boring looking buildings that don’t have any windows or anything interesting on the outside and inside are just racks and racks of computers and chips and servers, crunching a lot of numbers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What we call artificial intelligence has existed in some form since the 1950s. But the technology that we call AI today is very different. There are many types that we now lump together under the AI umbrella, which all have different energy requirements. But for this deep dive, when we say AI, we’re referring to generative AI, specifically, the models that produce content based on a human entering a prompt. They include large language models, or LLMs, like ChatGPT and Claude and Gemini. When it comes to generative AI models, there are typically two different processes involved: training and inference. These also factor into the total energy use.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So training is what you do when you want to build an AI model from scratch, from nothing and you, you have a large language model that is only going to be as smart as the data that you feed it. So training is basically the phase where you’re taking massive amounts of data. Normally this is a lot of language and text, which could be everything from the internet, could be every book that’s ever been written, uh, regardless of if these companies have the legal right to access that data, but they’re putting a bunch of data into this AI model. And the AI model is basically learning how to create better and better guesses of the text that it outputs. So it’s learning to generate texts, to string words together, to string sentences together and paragraphs together that sound realistic and accurate. And it’s doing that by noticing patterns of what words go together in this large data set.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So training is sort of the number crunching of feeding all of that data into an AI model and at the end, it spits out this model that has learned millions and millions of parameters, we call them, basically like knobs on an AI model that help the model understand the connections between different words. And at the end, you have this model that can generate text.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A lot of electricity is used in the process of training that AI model. Years ago, that was like, when I say years ago, maybe two or three years ago that was the main concern of how much energy AI was using was really in that training phase. And what Casey and I discovered in our reporting is that that has changed really significantly. So most AI companies today are, you know, they’re planning for their energy budgets to be spent more on inference.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, what is inference?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Inference is every time you ask an AI model something, so every time you ask a question or have it generate an image or a video, anytime it actually does the thing of generating something that’s called inference. And so the individual amounts of energy that are used at the time of inference can be quite small or, or sort of big. Um, but it’s really the summation of all of that, that gives you kind of the energy footprint of a given AI model.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The generated output also changes the energy usage. The more complicated the prompt, the more energy it uses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, in our reporting we looked at text, images, and video. So kind of really broadly, and again, it can still vary, even within kind of a text query, depending on how complicated your ask is. So are you asking something to rewrite the whole works of Shakespeare, but like, in pirate speak, or are you just asking for a suggestion for a recipe? The open source models that we looked at, we found that the smallest models, if you were kind of asking a sort of standard query, might use about 114 joules of electricity. That’s equivalent to roughly a 10th of a second in a microwave, so a very, very small amount of electricity. A larger text model and one of the largest text models we looked at would use a lot more, so more like 6,700 joules, that’s about eight seconds in a microwave. So again, fairly small numbers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also, the bigger the model, the more energy it uses. AI models have parameters. Like James said earlier, these are basically the adjustable knobs that allow models to make a prediction. With more parameters, AI models are more likely to generate a better response and are better equipped to handle complex requests. So, asking a chat bot, “What year did Shakespeare write Hamlet?” Is generally a less complex request than, say, “Translate all of Hamlet into pirate speak.” The smallest model that Casey and James tested had eight billion parameters. The largest had 405 billion parameters. OpenAI is pretty hush-hush about their infrastructure, but some estimate that the company’s latest model, GPT-5, is somewhere up in the trillions. So, as models get bigger, they need to run on more chips, which needs more energy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What was really surprising and what I think really stood out in our reporting was that videos, based on the models that we were looking at, used significantly more energy, so thousands of times more energy than some of the smallest text models. So one model that we looked at used about 3.4 million joules of energy. That’s about an hour of microwave time. So there’s a really wide range here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s another factor: reasoning models. Investors are all over these right now. Reasoning models are marketed as literal thinking machines that are able to break down complex problems into logical steps instead of just predicting the next answer based on the patterns it recognizes. They’re advertised to think like a human would and supposedly will become more energy efficient the smarter the model gets. One of the researchers that Casey and James worked with at Hugging Tree put this to the test.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, a lot of people are excited about this idea of reasoning models. And so when this researcher studied these and figured out whether or not they’re energy efficient, she found that a lot these reasoning models can actually use 30 times more energy than a non-reasoning model.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there’s the water usage. AI datacenters use massive quantities of water.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this is something that has been a conversation and there’s still I think, to some extent, a lot of uncertainty about. But basically, data centers use water directly for a lot cooling systems. A lot of data centers are cooled with what’s called evaporative cooling. So, you know, water evaporates to cool down the equipment. There’s also sort of indirect water use, which is a little trickier to calculate, but there’s also water that’s used in power plants. And so if you kind of think, okay, the power plant is needed to power the data center. So the water used in the power plant, you can kind of attribute to AI as well. Oftentimes the water that is required in a data center has to be very, very high quality, very pure water because you’re dealing with very sensitive equipment. And so there is this big conversation about water. Google released estimates about its water use per query as well, but kind of to sum it up, there is a pretty major water requirement and we’re starting to see that as, again, data centers are being built in places, including those that are very water stressed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that’s what we do know about AI and energy consumption. This is the usage that can be measured, even if companies aren’t the most upfront about their numbers. But what about everything else? We’re opening a new tab, after this break. Welcome back, we’re opening a new tab. What AI energy use isn’t being measured? So we’ve talked about the front and most visible uses, energy usages, generating videos, generating lists, translating Shakespeare’s text into pirate speak, right. What’s happening in the background that’s also using up energy? Like, how many times do you have to run a microwave for those processes?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I think it’s hard to know. Like since we’ve done this reporting, AI is being put into many parts of our online life and we don’t always have a lot of choice or visibility into how AI is being using used. So for example, Google famously, uh, went from just presenting you search results to then summarizing those search results with AI overviews. So now for the most part, people aren’t looking very far down that search page, they’re actually just relying on the AI overview. We would love to know how much energy is used by Google every time it creates an AI overview and the percentage of those searches that it uses overviews for, we weren’t able to get that information. Uh, Google wouldn’t share it with us. And so, you know, AI is being put into all these different parts of our online life. And I think we’ll look back on this as the sort of like simplest calculation of, of being able to estimate, you now, how much is used when you try and make a recipe or generate an image or something. But the truth is, as you point out, AI is sort of being put into everything and it’s going to be harder and harder to sort of track the footprint as that goes on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you elaborate on why this topic appears to be so divisive and so confusing for so many people having to confront their energy usage through AI?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. I have thoughts, but I’m sure Casey does too. So, you know, it’s not like asking ChatGPT a question is like, you know, polluting the earth as much as driving a 3000 mile road trip, right? Like ,we’re talking about small, relatively small numbers here, but it gets a lot of attention, I think, because public opinion for AI right now is just so abysmally low because so many people are skeptical of whether or not it’s really benefiting all of us. And I think the energy footprint is just kind of this glaring issue for people that say, like, what are we getting out of this technology, especially if it’s sort of draining us of resources.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think part of the interesting phenomenon is that AI has really like crashed onto the scene for the general public. It’s this whole kind of new thing that we’re all having to kind of reckon with, like what is this doing to our brains? What is this going to our grids? It’s I think it’s natural to question this like entirely new thing. Another thing that I think is really interesting is that, as James mentioned, this is becoming less so, but to this point, it’s kind of discreet and countable in a way that a lot of our other activity, especially online activity, isn’t. You can go out on and, you know, how many times am I messaging this thing? So I think that kind of has lended itself to the natural kind of like, well, how much does each one of these queries, what does that mean for energy?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Google recently released data on the energy footprint of its AI model, Gemini, a couple of months after you guys put out your report. What did you make of that? Like, was it helpful? Can we trust those numbers? I guess wouldn’t they be incentivized to portray themselves as very energy friendly?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it would have been nice to get these when we were reporting, but as James mentioned earlier, these companies know better than anybody what their energy footprint is. So I think there’s such value in getting some of this data. And Google had a really good technical report that went through kind of in-depth, you know, here’s where the energy is coming from this much from, you know the AI chips, this much from other processes. But I think it’s really significant what wasn’t included in that report. And what wasn’t included in the report is any sort of information about, you know, the total queries that its Gemini model gets in a day. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Google is able to point to this number and say, hey, look, this is such a small number. It’s in line with what we found for, kind of, our median text model. You know, something like a second or so in the microwave per query. But that’s, you know, for what Google says is an average or median query. You know, it’s not kind of giving us the full range, including, you now, different kind of queries that we know would take up a lot more energy. It doesn’t include image and video, which we know are more energy intensive. And ultimately we’re not able to, without that total number of, you not, how many times is this model being queried and giving responses a day? How many users, how many daily users? We don’t know the total footprint. We can only say, here’s this little number.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s talk about the energy grid. The type of energy matters, right? Like there are a lot of discussion on renewables versus fossil fuels. What might impact where that energy comes from when it comes to building data centers and maintaining them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is something that I really focused on in our reporting because as I think I put it in the piece, if we just had data centers that were hooked up to a bunch of solar panels and they ran when the sun is shining, oh, what a lovely world it would be, and I would be a lot less worried about all this. But the reality is that today, grids around the world are largely reliant on fossil fuels. So burning things like, you know, natural gas and coal to run the grid, keep the lights on. And one concern is what the grid will look like as energy demand from AI continues to rise.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So today, we see that data centers are really concentrated on the East Coast, in places like Virginia, tends to be very natural gas heavy, reliant on coal. There are data centers that are on grids that have a lot more solar and hydropower and wind, and that means that the relative climate impact of data centers in those places can be lower than in the more fossil fuel-heavy places.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I think there’s a concern that as a lot, a lot of data center come online really quickly and need more electricity added to the grid in order to run, what is being added to grid in in order support those? Right now, the overwhelming answer is natural gas. And so that means that a lot of these new data centers will come with a pretty significant climate footprint attached.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We may not know the exact amount of energy that the AI industry is actually using, but what we do know is that it’s a lot, and it is putting a strain on our already limited resources. Each individual query does cost something, and it adds up. Plus, there’s everything running in the background that we can’t measure. So what is each individual person responsible for? I mean, should we be worried about the future? Is there anything that we could actually do? Time for a new tab: does my AI footprint matter in the big picture? Luckily, Casey dove into this exact topic last year. She believes that policing individual AI usage isn’t as helpful in the grand scheme of things. Here’s why we should shift our focus, instead of putting the onus on each person to change their own behavior.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As we went through this reporting, I got a lot of questions and I had a lot of questions myself about, you know, what does this mean for me and my personal choices about AI? And again, kind of as somebody who spent a lot of time reporting on climate change, it really reminded me of the conversation around climate footprint. You know, what is my climate footprint? What should I personally do differently to help, kind of, address climate change? And what I’ve come to kind of understand through my reporting and believe is that climate change is this massive problem that goes beyond any single one of us. And there’s a really significant limit to how much our individual choices can address a global problem that is very systemic. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can compost all you want, but if only gas vehicles are available to you and that’s the only way you can get around in your community, there’s only so much you can do. And we now know that some fossil fuel funded PR campaigns helped to popularize this idea of carbon footprint to kind of shift the focus on to individuals and away from these big, powerful companies. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think that I see some parallels with AI today, you know, this attempt to kind of shift focus on, you now, well, are you using ChatGPT too many times in a day rather than what is the global impact and like, why aren’t these companies being more transparent about what the energy use of AI is on their scale. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think ultimately, you know, there are limits to this. Like if you’re making a million AI slop videos every single day, I think that’s an individual action that you could probably safely make a choice that would be better for energy use. But overall, I think we should more be using our limited time and energy in the day to push for more transparency. You know, ask for regulations around AI and what’s powering it, and just generally not be so hard on ourselves because we operate in this system where it’s increasingly hard to get away from AI. As we’ve talked about, even if you don’t choose to go onto, you know chatgpt.com, you’re often, you’re part of this AI ecosystem. So we need to be talking about what that overall system looks like and how we can change it rather than the limited power of individuals.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the biggest unanswered questions every time a data center is open is actually like, what’s the energy source going into that? And is it going to be, you know, powered with renewable sources or not? Is it just going to run 24 seven on natural gas? And so sometimes if you hyper focus on this question of your own individual footprint, it can kind of make you forget that actually there are decisions still to be made every time the data center goes up that will arguably have a bigger impact on the sort of net footprint, net emissions of it all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do we know about where the AI industry wants to take us in the future, near future, like three years from now? What do they need energy-wise or water-wise to get us there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI companies are planning for some pretty, uh, unprecedented levels of investment in, in data centers and, you know, to power all of those unprecedented levels of investment in power plants and nuclear energy and things like that. Um, I think where they want to go, uh, is to build AI models that are bigger first of all. To do that you need more and more chips and more and more power, and so there’s an incentive to just amass all of this energy and electricity. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then on the product side of it, I think these AI companies imagine that the world of AI in five years will not just be large language models that people type to and get an answer back, but that image generation and video generation and real time voice chats are kind of a part of our everyday lives. And so they’re planning for a lot more demand as well. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so you could think of this project from OpenAI and others called Stargate, which is basically a half a trillion dollars of investment into data centers that they want to pop up around the country. And I think the reason why they’re seeing success politically from this is that AI companies have framed AI as a question of national security, right? If the US wants to win this AI race against China, then the country that has the most energy is the country will create the best AI and the sort of you know, impedance to all of that is access to, to energy. And that’s why these companies have sort of made it their top priority.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and just to add to that, I mean, I think these big dreams about, you know, how big AI could get, it’s going to be a lot of electricity. So as of 2024, data centers used over 400 terawatt hours of electricity, about 1.5% of all electricity used around the world. By 2030, the International Energy Agency says that that could more than double reaching 945 terawatts. Sorry to use inscrutable units, but that’s about 3% of global electricity consumption.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is that in microwave hours? [\u003cem>Laughter\u003c/em>]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A whole lot of microwaves, so many microwaves. So I think that basically we’re seeing really significant, really fast shifts and fast growth in electricity, including in places like the US that have seen very flat electricity demand for over a decade. And so I think that this is all going to add up to really complicated effects and really complicated, kind of, effects for local communities where these data centers and where these power plants are gonna be used.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James O’Donnell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, this is something I didn’t totally get before I learned more from Casey and before we started reporting on this. So data centers were doing a lot of stuff in the early 2000s, like, this is Netflix, social media, like, all sorts of streaming, but electricity going to those data centers stayed pretty flat, and it wasn’t until AI that you actually started to see a huge jump in the amount of electricity that data centers required.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most AI companies, or AI hype guys who are investing very heavily in AI companies will say something like, oh, AI can solve problems like climate change, so the energy usage is worth it. How much do you guys buy into that argument? Llike, does it hold any water?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s so much potential for all kinds of AI, again, beyond chatbots, in all kinds problems that are related to climate change, from materials discovery, finding new materials that could make better batteries or help us capture carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere, superconductors that can move electricity around super efficiently. There’s also ways that AI could be used to help the grid run more efficiently. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s really interesting research in all of these areas that I’m following very closely. But at this point, it’s all early stage. It’s all research. And I think there’s great potential for AI to be a positive force for the climate. But I think it’s absolutely irresponsible for us to punt on all of this concerns about AI’s current energy use because of some potential. Because there’s always the chance that this doesn’t work. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think in any case, the progress could be significant, but it’s not gonna be a silver bullet. So I think we need to reckon very seriously with the current energy problems that we’re seeing now, rather than try to make some future promise that may never come true, build all this infrastructure that will be online for decades to come and could change our climate forever. Just doesn’t make sense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you think the most misunderstood part of this whole energy AI use conversation is?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Casey Crownhart: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that there’s kind of a nuanced picture of just how important AI energy use is in context. So it is true that AI is probably a small part of your individual energy picture. And in fact, in terms of like the global energy use picture, it’s 3% in 2030. That doesn’t seem like very much. But that kind of change over such a short amount of time is going to be very significant for especially local grids where this is taking place. It will have significant impacts for climate change. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This kind of build out will definitely not go unnoticed by the climate, but I think the biggest impacts here will be faced by local communities seeing data centers going up, local communities with new fossil fuel infrastructure going up. And so all at once, this is a small fraction of individual and even global energy use, and a very, very significant trend for the energy system of the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Looking toward the future is important, but the AI industry is changing residential communities right now in real time. The data center room promises to bring jobs and economic growth, but are AI companies following through on that? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Next week, we’re taking our deep dive to one of the fastest growing hubs for AI data centers, Atlanta. But for now, let’s close all of these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was edited by Chris Hambrick and produced by Chris Egusa, who’s our senior editor and also composed our theme song and credits music. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional music by APM. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager a\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">nd Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor-in-Chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Apple Maker Ala F99 keyboard with Greywood V3 switches and Cherry Profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nOkay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but… if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends too, or even your enemies, or frenemies. And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>Nvidia has announced a suite of open-source AI weather forecasting systems, joining other \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/category/technology\">Big Tech players\u003c/a> hoping to establish themselves in the space as federal funding evaporates.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California farmers, insurers and meteorologists alike stand to gain from adding \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/tag/ai\">AI\u003c/a> to their weather-forecasting toolboxes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the American Meteorological Society’s\u003ca href=\"https://www.ametsoc.org/ams/meetings-events/upcoming-meetings/annual-meeting/\"> annual meeting\u003c/a> in Houston, Nvidia unveiled a new \u003ca href=\"https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/high-performance-computing/earth-2/\">NVIDIA Earth-2 “family”\u003c/a> of open models, libraries and frameworks for weather and climate AI, offering what it called “the world’s first fully open, accelerated weather AI software stack.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Santa Clara-based chipmaker described the system as “complete” for nowcasting and medium-range predictions that previously took hours on high-performance computing clusters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nvidia said the tools represent the first time AI has surpassed traditional, physics-based weather prediction models in short-term precipitation forecasting. The company added that developers across industries are already using Earth-2 to predict weather and “harness actionable insights.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/qo78lSBYi-U?si=QfwIVTE331HifdRV\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s a shot across the bow at other private AI developers, including Alphabet’s Google, Microsoft and Huawei Technologies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Private-sector AI tools like Nvidia’s are welcome additions — not replacements — in a rapidly changing world, according to climate scientist Daniel Swain of UC Agriculture and Natural Resources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Swain said he is less concerned about the hallucinations that plague public-facing large language models than about AI weather modeling’s still unproven ability to predict edge cases based on historical data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Sometimes when it matters most — the very most extreme events that might be at the edge or outside of what we’ve seen historically — is precisely when we need the most accurate weather forecast,” Swain said. “We might not be there yet.” He added that the technology is rapidly advancing.[aside postID=news_12070850 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2234090773.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There are real gains, in terms of scientific understanding as well as in prediction, and there’s need for continued caution,” said Noah Diffenbaugh, a professor and senior fellow at Stanford University’s Doerr School of Sustainability. But he struck a more cautionary note. “Other AI applications can produce inaccurate results, can produce results that are not grounded in reality. That’s a risk with these systems as well.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Private developers trained their AI on a corpus of data that was largely publicly funded. While that bolsters the models’ credibility with scientists, it also raises troubling questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For one, private developers are, by definition, concerned with profit — eventually, if not immediately. There is no guarantee they will not begin charging for access to their models.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Within a university context, we have no profit motivation at all,” Diffenbaugh said. “We’re trying to understand how the world works. And we’re doing that within our time scale, a much longer time scale (than private developers). And I think the benefit that we can bring in our work is that we’re doing that work in the context of this rigorous, patient scientific evaluation.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The primary question for Swain is whether optimism about end-to-end AI models could be used by Trump administration officials to justify ceding data collection and weather modeling entirely to the private sector, even as global warming dramatically alters the climate system, particularly in California, with its complex interplay of atmospheric rivers, marine layers, Sierra snowpack, wind patterns and wildfire risk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Not only are we not there yet, not only do I think we won’t be there anytime soon, I’m not sure that we will ever get to that point,” Swain said. “It’s almost a category error to assume that the success of AI-based predictive modeling means that it’s just going to completely replace that whole pipeline. That’s just fundamentally divorced from the reality of the world we live in today, and very likely to be divorced from the reality of the world that we’re going to be living in for the foreseeable future.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Santa Clara-based chipmaker described the system as “complete” for nowcasting and medium-range predictions that previously took hours on high-performance computing clusters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nvidia said the tools represent the first time AI has surpassed traditional, physics-based weather prediction models in short-term precipitation forecasting. The company added that developers across industries are already using Earth-2 to predict weather and “harness actionable insights.”\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/qo78lSBYi-U'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/qo78lSBYi-U'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>It’s a shot across the bow at other private AI developers, including Alphabet’s Google, Microsoft and Huawei Technologies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Private-sector AI tools like Nvidia’s are welcome additions — not replacements — in a rapidly changing world, according to climate scientist Daniel Swain of UC Agriculture and Natural Resources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Swain said he is less concerned about the hallucinations that plague public-facing large language models than about AI weather modeling’s still unproven ability to predict edge cases based on historical data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Sometimes when it matters most — the very most extreme events that might be at the edge or outside of what we’ve seen historically — is precisely when we need the most accurate weather forecast,” Swain said. “We might not be there yet.” He added that the technology is rapidly advancing.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There are real gains, in terms of scientific understanding as well as in prediction, and there’s need for continued caution,” said Noah Diffenbaugh, a professor and senior fellow at Stanford University’s Doerr School of Sustainability. But he struck a more cautionary note. “Other AI applications can produce inaccurate results, can produce results that are not grounded in reality. That’s a risk with these systems as well.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Private developers trained their AI on a corpus of data that was largely publicly funded. While that bolsters the models’ credibility with scientists, it also raises troubling questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For one, private developers are, by definition, concerned with profit — eventually, if not immediately. There is no guarantee they will not begin charging for access to their models.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Within a university context, we have no profit motivation at all,” Diffenbaugh said. “We’re trying to understand how the world works. And we’re doing that within our time scale, a much longer time scale (than private developers). And I think the benefit that we can bring in our work is that we’re doing that work in the context of this rigorous, patient scientific evaluation.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The primary question for Swain is whether optimism about end-to-end AI models could be used by Trump administration officials to justify ceding data collection and weather modeling entirely to the private sector, even as global warming dramatically alters the climate system, particularly in California, with its complex interplay of atmospheric rivers, marine layers, Sierra snowpack, wind patterns and wildfire risk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Not only are we not there yet, not only do I think we won’t be there anytime soon, I’m not sure that we will ever get to that point,” Swain said. “It’s almost a category error to assume that the success of AI-based predictive modeling means that it’s just going to completely replace that whole pipeline. That’s just fundamentally divorced from the reality of the world we live in today, and very likely to be divorced from the reality of the world that we’re going to be living in for the foreseeable future.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>Three voice-activated, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/artificial-intelligence\">AI-powered\u003c/a> toys tested by Common Sense Media researchers raised concerns that they were designed to engineer emotional attachment with young children and collect private data, according to the nonprofit’s report released Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The warning is the latest in a string from consumer advocates about the risks posed to children by artificial intelligence, including in the form of toys like stuffed animals or brightly colored plastic robots that act as chatbots, conversing and telling stories to children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Unlike traditional toys, these devices present a range of new harms,” Common Sense Media researchers wrote in their \u003ca href=\"https://www.commonsensemedia.org/ai-ratings/ai-toys\">report\u003c/a>, which tested the Grem, Bondu and Miko 3 toys.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The children’s advocacy group recommended that parents not give AI companion toys to children 5 and younger, and it warned parents to exercise “extreme caution” even with children 6 to 13 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the group’s December survey of 1,004 parents of children ranging from infants to age 8, nearly half of parents have purchased or are considering purchasing these toys or similar ones for their children. The products are sold by major retailers like Walmart, Costco, Amazon and Target. One in 6 parents told Common Sense they have already purchased one, and 10% said they “definitely plan to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070893\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070893\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1706\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-2000x1333.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-2048x1365.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Hyodol, the world’s first AI-based companion robot dolls, are being exhibited in the South Korean pavilion at the Mobile World Congress 2024 in Barcelona, Spain, on April 2, 2024. Created by a South Korean company, these dolls are designed to serve as social companions for the elderly and have been commercialized in several countries.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Common Sense Media is not usually in the business of saying, don’t use technology entirely,” said Robbie Torney, head of AI & digital assessments for Common Sense Media. “We really want to trust parents and empower them to make the best choices for their kids. But for under-5 children in particular, our testing showed a set of risks that are really a big developmental mismatch for where these young children are.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Common Sense Media researchers tested the toys by creating child accounts for “users” ages 6 to 13, putting them through both everyday use and sensitive scenarios. Their team, including child development experts, evaluated everything from voice recognition and content accuracy to privacy practices, parental controls and whether the toys’ responses were developmentally appropriate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Though the toys are marketed as educational, more than a quarter of their responses in testing weren’t child-appropriate, the Common Sense report found. They included problematic content related to drugs, sex and risky activities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Our testing did show that these companies have put tremendous effort into guardrailing their chatbots,” Torney said. But “chatbots don’t understand context. They can’t make determinations about what a child actually means. If you ask about self-harm and then ask for dangerous chemicals, many of these devices will refuse the self-harm question, but won’t make the connection that dangerous chemicals might enable self-harm.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ritvik Sharma, chief growth officer at Miko, based in Mumbai, India, wrote that “child safety, privacy, and healthy development are foundational design requirements — not afterthoughts.” He also said the company was unable to reproduce the behaviors cited by Common Sense Media researchers “under normal operation,” sharing videos that showed Miko redirecting away from potentially problematic questions.[aside postID=news_12069286 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/OpenAI.jpg']“Miko’s conversational experience is powered by a proprietary, child-focused AI system developed specifically for young users, rather than adapted from general-purpose AI models,” Sharma added. “This allows us to evaluate responses for age suitability, emotional tone, and educational value before they reach a child.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, a spokesperson from Redwood-City-based Curio Interactive, which makes Grem, said the company’s toys “are designed with parent permission and control at the center.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Over a two-year beta period, we worked with approximately 2,000 families to develop a multi-tiered safety system that combines constrained conversational scope, age-appropriate design, layered filtering and refusal mechanisms, and continuous real-world monitoring, with safeguards enforced at multiple points in the interaction,” the spokesperson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Torney said parents need to ask themselves how much they trust the internet-connected companions not to cross developmentally appropriate lines into psychologically damaging territory when there’s no meaningful product safety regulation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One of the characteristics of under-5 children is that they have magical thinking, and what’s sometimes referred to as animism, the belief that objects may be real. They think about them differently than older children do,” Torney said. He acknowledged magical thinking can continue into later childhood as well, “which is why we’re still encouraging that extreme caution.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Common Sense Media report comes after an \u003ca href=\"https://fairplayforkids.org/pf/aitoyadvisory\">advisory published in November\u003c/a> by the children’s advocacy group Fairplay strongly urged parents not to buy AI toys during the holiday season. The advisory was signed by more than 150 organizations, child psychiatrists and educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Some of the new AI toys react contingently to young children,” wrote UC Berkeley professor Fei Xu, who directs the Berkeley Early Learning Lab. “That is, when a child says something, the AI toy says something back; if a child waves at the AI toy, it moves. This kind of social contingency is known to be very important for early social, emotional and language development. This raises the potential issue of young children being emotionally attached to these AI toys. More research is urgently needed to study this systematically.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We need to be exceptionally cautious when introducing understudied technologies with young children, whose biological and emotional minds are very vulnerable,” UCSF psychiatry and pediatrics professor Dr. Nicole Bush wrote. “While AI has the capacity for tremendous benefit to society, young children’s time is better spent with trusted adults and peers, or in constructive play or learning activities.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070888\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1484px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070888\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"1484\" height=\"492\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5.png 1484w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5-160x53.png 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1484px) 100vw, 1484px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A chat between a Common Sense Media tester and Miko 3, an AI toy. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Common Sense Media)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Earlier this month, Common Sense Media and OpenAI announced they’re backing a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069286/openai-and-common-sense-media-partner-on-new-kids-ai-safety-ballot-measure\">consolidated effort\u003c/a> to put a measure on this November’s ballot in California that would institute AI chatbot guardrails for children. That effort is now in the signature-gathering stage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A legislative measure that Common Sense backed, covering much of the same territory, was \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12059714/newsom-vetoes-most-watched-childrens-ai-bill-signs-16-others-targeting-tech\">vetoed by Gov. Gavin Newsom\u003c/a> at the end of last session. In his veto message, Newsom expressed concern that the bill could lead to a total ban on minors using conversational AI tools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“AI is already shaping the world, and it is imperative that adolescents learn how to safely interact with AI systems,” he wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, state Sen. Steve Padilla, D-San Diego, introduced \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB867\">Senate Bill 867\u003c/a>, which would establish a first-in-the-nation four-year moratorium on the sale and manufacture of toys with AI chatbots embedded in them, “until manufacturers have worked out the dangers embedded in them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We need to put the brakes on AI toys until they are proven safe for kids,” Padilla wrote in a statement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Three voice-activated, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/artificial-intelligence\">AI-powered\u003c/a> toys tested by Common Sense Media researchers raised concerns that they were designed to engineer emotional attachment with young children and collect private data, according to the nonprofit’s report released Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The warning is the latest in a string from consumer advocates about the risks posed to children by artificial intelligence, including in the form of toys like stuffed animals or brightly colored plastic robots that act as chatbots, conversing and telling stories to children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Unlike traditional toys, these devices present a range of new harms,” Common Sense Media researchers wrote in their \u003ca href=\"https://www.commonsensemedia.org/ai-ratings/ai-toys\">report\u003c/a>, which tested the Grem, Bondu and Miko 3 toys.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The children’s advocacy group recommended that parents not give AI companion toys to children 5 and younger, and it warned parents to exercise “extreme caution” even with children 6 to 13 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the group’s December survey of 1,004 parents of children ranging from infants to age 8, nearly half of parents have purchased or are considering purchasing these toys or similar ones for their children. The products are sold by major retailers like Walmart, Costco, Amazon and Target. One in 6 parents told Common Sense they have already purchased one, and 10% said they “definitely plan to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070893\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070893\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1706\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-2000x1333.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/GettyImages-2126123060-2048x1365.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Hyodol, the world’s first AI-based companion robot dolls, are being exhibited in the South Korean pavilion at the Mobile World Congress 2024 in Barcelona, Spain, on April 2, 2024. Created by a South Korean company, these dolls are designed to serve as social companions for the elderly and have been commercialized in several countries.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Common Sense Media is not usually in the business of saying, don’t use technology entirely,” said Robbie Torney, head of AI & digital assessments for Common Sense Media. “We really want to trust parents and empower them to make the best choices for their kids. But for under-5 children in particular, our testing showed a set of risks that are really a big developmental mismatch for where these young children are.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Common Sense Media researchers tested the toys by creating child accounts for “users” ages 6 to 13, putting them through both everyday use and sensitive scenarios. Their team, including child development experts, evaluated everything from voice recognition and content accuracy to privacy practices, parental controls and whether the toys’ responses were developmentally appropriate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Though the toys are marketed as educational, more than a quarter of their responses in testing weren’t child-appropriate, the Common Sense report found. They included problematic content related to drugs, sex and risky activities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Our testing did show that these companies have put tremendous effort into guardrailing their chatbots,” Torney said. But “chatbots don’t understand context. They can’t make determinations about what a child actually means. If you ask about self-harm and then ask for dangerous chemicals, many of these devices will refuse the self-harm question, but won’t make the connection that dangerous chemicals might enable self-harm.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ritvik Sharma, chief growth officer at Miko, based in Mumbai, India, wrote that “child safety, privacy, and healthy development are foundational design requirements — not afterthoughts.” He also said the company was unable to reproduce the behaviors cited by Common Sense Media researchers “under normal operation,” sharing videos that showed Miko redirecting away from potentially problematic questions.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“Miko’s conversational experience is powered by a proprietary, child-focused AI system developed specifically for young users, rather than adapted from general-purpose AI models,” Sharma added. “This allows us to evaluate responses for age suitability, emotional tone, and educational value before they reach a child.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, a spokesperson from Redwood-City-based Curio Interactive, which makes Grem, said the company’s toys “are designed with parent permission and control at the center.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Over a two-year beta period, we worked with approximately 2,000 families to develop a multi-tiered safety system that combines constrained conversational scope, age-appropriate design, layered filtering and refusal mechanisms, and continuous real-world monitoring, with safeguards enforced at multiple points in the interaction,” the spokesperson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Torney said parents need to ask themselves how much they trust the internet-connected companions not to cross developmentally appropriate lines into psychologically damaging territory when there’s no meaningful product safety regulation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One of the characteristics of under-5 children is that they have magical thinking, and what’s sometimes referred to as animism, the belief that objects may be real. They think about them differently than older children do,” Torney said. He acknowledged magical thinking can continue into later childhood as well, “which is why we’re still encouraging that extreme caution.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Common Sense Media report comes after an \u003ca href=\"https://fairplayforkids.org/pf/aitoyadvisory\">advisory published in November\u003c/a> by the children’s advocacy group Fairplay strongly urged parents not to buy AI toys during the holiday season. The advisory was signed by more than 150 organizations, child psychiatrists and educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Some of the new AI toys react contingently to young children,” wrote UC Berkeley professor Fei Xu, who directs the Berkeley Early Learning Lab. “That is, when a child says something, the AI toy says something back; if a child waves at the AI toy, it moves. This kind of social contingency is known to be very important for early social, emotional and language development. This raises the potential issue of young children being emotionally attached to these AI toys. More research is urgently needed to study this systematically.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We need to be exceptionally cautious when introducing understudied technologies with young children, whose biological and emotional minds are very vulnerable,” UCSF psychiatry and pediatrics professor Dr. Nicole Bush wrote. “While AI has the capacity for tremendous benefit to society, young children’s time is better spent with trusted adults and peers, or in constructive play or learning activities.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070888\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1484px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070888\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"1484\" height=\"492\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5.png 1484w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/ai-toys-ss-5-160x53.png 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1484px) 100vw, 1484px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A chat between a Common Sense Media tester and Miko 3, an AI toy. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Common Sense Media)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Earlier this month, Common Sense Media and OpenAI announced they’re backing a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069286/openai-and-common-sense-media-partner-on-new-kids-ai-safety-ballot-measure\">consolidated effort\u003c/a> to put a measure on this November’s ballot in California that would institute AI chatbot guardrails for children. That effort is now in the signature-gathering stage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A legislative measure that Common Sense backed, covering much of the same territory, was \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12059714/newsom-vetoes-most-watched-childrens-ai-bill-signs-16-others-targeting-tech\">vetoed by Gov. Gavin Newsom\u003c/a> at the end of last session. In his veto message, Newsom expressed concern that the bill could lead to a total ban on minors using conversational AI tools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“AI is already shaping the world, and it is imperative that adolescents learn how to safely interact with AI systems,” he wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, state Sen. Steve Padilla, D-San Diego, introduced \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB867\">Senate Bill 867\u003c/a>, which would establish a first-in-the-nation four-year moratorium on the sale and manufacture of toys with AI chatbots embedded in them, “until manufacturers have worked out the dangers embedded in them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We need to put the brakes on AI toys until they are proven safe for kids,” Padilla wrote in a statement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>JoseMonkey is very good at finding people. With their permission, of course.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As a self-styled \u003ca href=\"https://josemonkey.com/about-me/\">“open source intelligence researcher”\u003c/a> operating on TikTok, Instagram and YouTube, JoseMonkey’s specialty is pinpointing a person’s exact global location using only the non-descript video of their face, which they send him first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His posts — \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@the_josemonkey\">most of them documenting his lighthearted digital manhunts\u003c/a> — gain hundreds of thousands of views each, with nearly 20 million total likes over five years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To do this work, JoseMonkey focuses on the background details of the videos he’s sent — like the landscape and visible street signs — and uses publicly available tools like \u003ca href=\"https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=4/38.01/-95.84\">OpenStreetMap\u003c/a>. But he only tries to “find people who ask to be found,” JoseMonkey told KQED’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/closealltabs\">Close All Tabs\u003c/a> podcast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>JoseMonkey does this for fun — and also because of his advocacy for online privacy. When he felt like people weren’t taking his concerns about the information they were unknowingly sharing seriously, he took to TikTok for a different approach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By walking his viewers “through the process of how I could look at a seemingly mundane video that doesn’t show very much” and nonetheless deduce the exact location it was taken, “I thought that might be something that people would think was both interesting, but maybe slightly unsettling,” JoseMonkey said. “And then, they would pay attention to this idea of internet safety.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote class=\"tiktok-embed\" style=\"max-width: 605px; min-width: 325px;\" cite=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@the_josemonkey/video/7530754458112806157\" data-video-id=\"7530754458112806157\">\n\u003csection>\u003ca title=\"@the_josemonkey\" href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@the_josemonkey?refer=embed\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">@the_josemonkey\u003c/a> This one was tricky 😅 \u003ca title=\"geolocation\" href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/tag/geolocation?refer=embed\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">#geolocation\u003c/a> \u003ca title=\"osint\" href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/tag/osint?refer=embed\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">#OSINT\u003c/a> @mastrosmom \u003ca title=\"♬ original sound - josemonkey\" href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/music/original-sound-josemonkey-7530754461849996087?refer=embed\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">♬ original sound – josemonkey\u003c/a>\u003c/section>\n\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>\u003cscript async src=\"https://www.tiktok.com/embed.js\">\u003c/script>\u003cbr>\n[tiktok]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oversharing online is so common that most people don’t think twice about it. Think of the most popular posts online: “Get ready with me,” apartment tours, “Come with me.” Videos like these can, even unwittingly, contain a huge amount of personal geographic information — details which could make them vulnerable to scams or even attacks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The important takeaway here is that a sufficiently motivated individual who has an attention to detail and time to spend … can find you from a video,” JoseMonkey explained. “I don’t wanna scare people by saying that, but people should know it is possible.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KQED’s Close All Tabs spoke to JoseMonkey and other experts on how you can start the new year with privacy in mind by adjusting some of your digital habits — without overwhelming you too much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jump to: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"#WhatshouldIthinkaboutwhenIpost\">What should I think about when I post?\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"#WhatarethefirststepsIcantaketowarddigitalhygiene\">What are the first steps I can take toward digital hygiene?\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2>How much danger might my personal privacy be in?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>You don’t need to guard yourself against every threat that exists, explained Eva Galperin, the director of cybersecurity at the Electronic Frontier Foundation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The only way to really do that is to “live as a hermit on a mountain and fling all of your devices into the sea,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Instead, Galperin said, it’s more helpful to think about what advocates like her call “threat modeling”: What you want to protect and who you want to protect it from.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069526\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12069526 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A worst-case scenario of having your digital privacy breached: Losing out financially. \u003ccite>(Rain Star/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Some of the common threat models you might consider:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Being scammed online by ransomware …\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For most people, their threat is scammers looking for money, access to their accounts or access to people who trust them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One of the big problems that we have right now is that we are in a golden age of grift,” Galperin explained. And if you have a phone, email address or any way of being reached, you are “constantly getting messages from scammers and criminals.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of us feel very smart because every day we get targeted with, like, six of these things and we don’t fall for it,” she said. “But what’s really important to understand is that all a scammer needs is for you to have one bad day.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A common method is ransomware, in which a scammer tricks you into downloading software that locks up your devices and holds them hostage until you pay a ransom — or in some cases, uses such software to spy on you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>… or a phishing attempt\u003c/strong>[aside postID=news_12055606 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/09/USImmigrationCustomsEnforcementHQGetty.jpg']Phishing entails a bad actor pretending to be someone you trust — a bank, a friend, a family member — and luring you into clicking on a link, or logging into a fake website to obtain information.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You may be able to tell you are being phished by viewing the message closely and noticing inconsistencies, like the email address being slightly wrong.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A sort of indicator of a scam is a sense of urgency,” Galperin said. “‘Something is on fire,’ ‘an emergency is happening’ or ‘you could get rich if you click here in the next five minutes.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That sense of urgency is aimed at overriding your common sense,” she warned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Being tracked as someone seeking an abortion\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Experts worry about the digital safety of people seeking reproductive care across state borders following the overturning of Roe v. Wade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Abortion advocates have taken \u003ca href=\"https://digitaldefensefund.org/\">major steps to educate people\u003c/a> in states that severely restrict abortion on how to cover their tracks in pursuing the procedure elsewhere, including turning off their location. (Read \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12014633/how-do-i-protect-my-privacy-if-im-seeking-an-abortion\">The Markup’s thorough guide on protecting your privacy if you are seeking an abortion\u003c/a>.)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When communicating about abortion, a major way that patients and providers can protect their messages is to use an encrypted app, like \u003ca href=\"https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/categories/5592576449306-Getting-Started\">Signal\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this case, end-to-end encryption means that your telecommunications company and the messaging platform can’t read your messages.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Being threatened as a survivor of domestic abuse\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Creating a threat model for scenarios like domestic abuse is harder, often because an abuser can gain physical access to a person’s possessions, like their phone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When talking to survivors of domestic abuse who are attempting to leave an abuser, Galperin said the first thing she suggests is creating a new account — or a device — where they know their communications will be safe and private.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"WhatshouldIthinkaboutwhenIpost\">\u003c/a>How can my posts and videos reveal too much about my location?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Always review what you are posting before you post it, JoseMonkey said — even though “many people” never take this step.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They record something, and they just press send,” he said. And a person may not even realize “that there was some big thing that they forgot that they didn’t want to include,” he warns, until the post is out there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This could, for example, be a visible street sign behind you, which can be easily remedied by cropping it out or covering it with text or \u003ca href=\"https://help.instagram.com/151273688993748/\">a sticker\u003c/a> — or just rerecording the video to keep it out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11732621\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11732621 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/03/gettyimages-936083116_slide-3e70954a8411a47eae7fed29faec169c8c9a7088-e1552499753206.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">How can you protect your digital privacy online, especially when it comes to sharing details on social media? \u003ccite>(Chandan Khanna/AFP/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A more subtle aspect people may not think about? “The more you move the camera, the more information you’re going to show,” JoseMonkey said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If you’re out for a walk somewhere, people can see everything around you,” he added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Many people record videos in their car, but “people underestimate how much you can see through the windows of your car,” JoseMonkey warned. And if the car’s mirrors or its GPS are visible, that’s more information being shared.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Be mindful of your posting history — “you may not remember that three years ago, you posted something that’s still there on your account that revealed some other bit of information,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And this could be spread across several platforms. You tweeted something on one account, you posted a picture on another, have your LinkedIn on another, and a larger picture about you is created.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Now people have all these bits and pieces of information about you,” JoseMonkey said — and you’ve potentially made it far easier for someone to find you.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"WhatarethefirststepsIcantaketowarddigitalhygiene\">\u003c/a>OK, I’m convinced. What should my first steps to improve my digital safety be?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>While the world of surveillance and privacy can be \u003cem>incredibly \u003c/em>overwhelming (and scary), it shouldn’t completely discourage you from adopting good practices that are attainable for anyone with a phone or computer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Consider the following checklist a form of basic digital hygiene — like washing your hands — that can help make you safer from the “kinds of threats that most people face every day,” Galperin explained.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11947072\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11947072 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/04/RS40986_iStock-1170728885-qut.jpg\" alt=\"A close up of a woman's hands as she holds a smartphone and is swiping the screen. She wears an orange jacket.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/04/RS40986_iStock-1170728885-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/04/RS40986_iStock-1170728885-qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/04/RS40986_iStock-1170728885-qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/04/RS40986_iStock-1170728885-qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/04/RS40986_iStock-1170728885-qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">What are some easy digital habits you can pick up in the new year that can protect your privacy online? \u003ccite>(istock/GaudiLab)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Strengthen — and manage — your passwords — and get a password manager\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To secure your accounts, Galperin said, you should make sure:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>All of your passwords are different from one another\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>The passwords are long\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Use a password manager like \u003ca href=\"https://bitwarden.com/\">Bitwarden\u003c/a> or \u003ca href=\"https://proton.me/pass\">ProtonPass\u003c/a>, a secure application that manages, stores and even creates passkeys to different websites (you may need to pay for this service, although \u003ca href=\"https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-google-and-microsoft-offer-free-password-managers-but-should-you-use-them/\">free password managers are available too\u003c/a>)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>“Your password manager will be unlocked with a single password,” Galperin said. “That single password again should be long and strong, and easy for you to memorize.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To make this single password easier to manage, Galperin recommends using a pass phrase instead: “Like five or six words, chosen at random.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In choosing a password manager, Galperin said that you should search the name of the application and “security incident” — to make sure the password manager you’re considering doesn’t have a history of being broken into. For example, LastPass — once one of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/best-password-managers/\">more popular password managers\u003c/a> — has faced controversy for \u003ca href=\"https://krebsonsecurity.com/2025/03/feds-link-150m-cyberheist-to-2022-lastpass-hacks/\">a 2022 breach that still sees theft today\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If it has a history of being untrustworthy, don’t touch it,” she said. But “if you don’t find a bunch of security incidents, it’s probably OK or good enough.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ultimately, though, the best password manager is the “one you actually use,” and that fits your daily life, Galperin said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If you spend a bunch of time getting a top-of-the-line password manager and then you only put two passwords in it, then you haven’t really done yourself a lot of good,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Install two-factor authentication\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Two-factor authentication, or 2FA — also called multi-factor authentication or MFA — adds another layer of protection to your account beyond just your password. Many websites and applications encourage you to activate 2FA on your profiles, like \u003ca href=\"https://help.instagram.com/566810106808145\">Instagram\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/articles/219576828-Setting-up-Multi-Factor-Authentication\">Discord\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/185839?hl=en&co=GENIE.Platform%3DDesktop\">Gmail\u003c/a>.[aside postID=news_12044323 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/240923-AI-IN-POLICING-MD-13_qed-1020x680.jpg']How it looks for most users: you enter your password, and then the website will send a unique code to you through SMS (a text) or to your email account, which you then enter back into the website. After that, you will have access to your account.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Galperin points out that contrary to what you might assume, getting a code through SMS is actually “the least secure way” of protecting your account — because “SMS messages are not encrypted,” and it’s “possible to intercept them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While SMS is better than nothing in most cases, Galperin recommended instead using an authenticator app, which syncs to your account and receives your code. Examples of \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-two-factor-authentication-app/\">these kinds of apps\u003c/a> include \u003ca href=\"https://duo.com/\">Duo Mobile\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/1066447\">Google Authenticator\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another layer of security could be getting a physical key: a keychain-sized flash drive that you can insert into your devices, allowing you to log in. But keep in mind, “if you break your physical key and you don’t have a backup key somewhere, you can end up locked out of your account,” Galperin said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She also doesn’t recommend using a physical key to survivors of domestic abuse, or anyone in “a situation in which you need to secure your account against somebody who has physical access to you.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pull your data from the brokers selling it\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Data brokers \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12055606/how-ice-is-using-your-data-and-what-you-can-do-about-it\">collect\u003c/a> your information and sell it through all sorts of means, including scraping from public records. These brokers can also grab personal information from tracking cookies, which can \u003ca href=\"https://socradar.io/blog/tracking-the-cookies-the-world-of-data-brokers/\">trace your browsing history and social media interactions\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You can mitigate the latter by installing an extension like \u003ca href=\"https://privacybadger.org/\">Privacy Badger\u003c/a> on your web browser, Galperin said. Privacy Badger’s website states that it stops advertisers and other third-party trackers from “secretly tracking where you go and what pages you look at on the web.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Californians can also \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/DROP/\">now fill out a request to the state to opt out of data brokers\u003c/a>, stopping them from storing and selling personal information. Keep in mind, these requests will only \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/how-drop-works/\">start being processed by data brokers in August\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>More digital safety resources\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://ssd.eff.org/\">Electronic Frontier Foundation’s Surveillance Self-Defense\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.eff.org/pages/tools\">Tools from the Electronic Frontier Foundation\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.privacyguides.org/en/\">Privacy Guides\u003c/a> (\u003ca href=\"https://www.privacyguides.org/es/basics/why-privacy-matters/\">Español\u003c/a>)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Cornell University’s \u003ca href=\"https://ceta.tech.cornell.edu/resources\">Clinic to End Tech Abuse\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://themarkup.org/gentle-january/2024/01/31/overwhelmed-by-digital-privacy-reset-with-these-practical-tips\">The Markup\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://zebracrossing.narwhalacademy.org/\">Zebra Crossing\u003c/a> (\u003ca href=\"https://zebracrossing.narwhalacademy.org/index-%E7%B9%81%E9%AB%94%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87.html\">繁體中文\u003c/a>)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://digitalfirstaid.org/\">Digital First Aid Kit\u003c/a> (\u003ca href=\"https://digitalfirstaid.org/es/\">Español\u003c/a>)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://gameshotline.org/online-free-safety-guide/\">The Games and Online Harassment Hotline\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://privacyinternational.org/guides\">Privacy International\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://digitaldefensefund.org/\">Digital Defense Fund\u003c/a> (aimed at people seeking reproductive care)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.advancingjustice-aajc.org/digital-privacy-tips-abortion-seekers\">Asian Americans Advancing Justice\u003c/a> (aimed at people seeking reproductive care) (languages include \u003ca href=\"https://aajc.medium.com/%E5%A6%82%E4%BD%95%E4%BF%9D%E6%8A%A4%E8%87%AA%E5%B7%B1-%E6%B5%81%E4%BA%A7-%E5%8C%BB%E7%96%97%E9%9A%90%E7%A7%81%E6%95%B0%E5%AD%97%E5%AE%89%E5%85%A8%E6%8C%87%E5%8D%97-a5f690894c3\">简体中文\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://aajc.medium.com/paano-protektahan-ang-iyong-sarili-a6b2f743b019\">Tagalog\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://aajc.medium.com/%E0%B8%88%E0%B8%B0%E0%B8%9B%E0%B8%81%E0%B8%9B%E0%B9%89%E0%B8%AD%E0%B8%87%E0%B8%95%E0%B8%B1%E0%B8%A7%E0%B9%80%E0%B8%AD%E0%B8%87%E0%B8%AD%E0%B8%A2%E0%B9%88%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%87%E0%B9%84%E0%B8%A3-7a92019678c2\">ภาษาไทย\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://aajc.medium.com/l%C3%A0m-th%E1%BA%BF-n%C3%A0o-%C4%91%E1%BB%83-b%E1%BA%A3o-v%E1%BB%87-b%E1%BA%A3n-th%C3%A2n-4aadd977d030\">Tiếng Việt\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.advancingjustice-aajc.org/sites/default/files/Bengali_Digital%20Privacy%20One%20Pager%20_%20Designed.pdf\">বাংলা\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.advancingjustice-aajc.org/sites/default/files/Khmer_Digital%20Privacy%20One%20Pager%20_%20Designed.pdf\">ខ្មែរ\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.advancingjustice-aajc.org/sites/default/files/Korean_Digital%20Privacy%20One%20Pager%20_%20Designed.pdf\">한국어\u003c/a>.)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://maskon.zone/\">Mask On Zone\u003c/a> (aimed at people going to protests)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://activistchecklist.org/\">Digital Security Checklists for Activists\u003c/a> (aimed at people going to protests and organizers)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>JoseMonkey is very good at finding people. With their permission, of course.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As a self-styled \u003ca href=\"https://josemonkey.com/about-me/\">“open source intelligence researcher”\u003c/a> operating on TikTok, Instagram and YouTube, JoseMonkey’s specialty is pinpointing a person’s exact global location using only the non-descript video of their face, which they send him first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His posts — \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@the_josemonkey\">most of them documenting his lighthearted digital manhunts\u003c/a> — gain hundreds of thousands of views each, with nearly 20 million total likes over five years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To do this work, JoseMonkey focuses on the background details of the videos he’s sent — like the landscape and visible street signs — and uses publicly available tools like \u003ca href=\"https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=4/38.01/-95.84\">OpenStreetMap\u003c/a>. But he only tries to “find people who ask to be found,” JoseMonkey told KQED’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/closealltabs\">Close All Tabs\u003c/a> podcast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>JoseMonkey does this for fun — and also because of his advocacy for online privacy. When he felt like people weren’t taking his concerns about the information they were unknowingly sharing seriously, he took to TikTok for a different approach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By walking his viewers “through the process of how I could look at a seemingly mundane video that doesn’t show very much” and nonetheless deduce the exact location it was taken, “I thought that might be something that people would think was both interesting, but maybe slightly unsettling,” JoseMonkey said. “And then, they would pay attention to this idea of internet safety.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote class=\"tiktok-embed\" style=\"max-width: 605px; min-width: 325px;\" cite=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@the_josemonkey/video/7530754458112806157\" data-video-id=\"7530754458112806157\">\n\u003csection>\u003ca title=\"@the_josemonkey\" href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@the_josemonkey?refer=embed\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">@the_josemonkey\u003c/a> This one was tricky 😅 \u003ca title=\"geolocation\" href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/tag/geolocation?refer=embed\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">#geolocation\u003c/a> \u003ca title=\"osint\" href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/tag/osint?refer=embed\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">#OSINT\u003c/a> @mastrosmom \u003ca title=\"♬ original sound - josemonkey\" href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/music/original-sound-josemonkey-7530754461849996087?refer=embed\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">♬ original sound – josemonkey\u003c/a>\u003c/section>\n\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>\u003cscript async src=\"https://www.tiktok.com/embed.js\">\u003c/script>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oversharing online is so common that most people don’t think twice about it. Think of the most popular posts online: “Get ready with me,” apartment tours, “Come with me.” Videos like these can, even unwittingly, contain a huge amount of personal geographic information — details which could make them vulnerable to scams or even attacks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The important takeaway here is that a sufficiently motivated individual who has an attention to detail and time to spend … can find you from a video,” JoseMonkey explained. “I don’t wanna scare people by saying that, but people should know it is possible.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KQED’s Close All Tabs spoke to JoseMonkey and other experts on how you can start the new year with privacy in mind by adjusting some of your digital habits — without overwhelming you too much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jump to: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"#WhatshouldIthinkaboutwhenIpost\">What should I think about when I post?\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"#WhatarethefirststepsIcantaketowarddigitalhygiene\">What are the first steps I can take toward digital hygiene?\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2>How much danger might my personal privacy be in?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>You don’t need to guard yourself against every threat that exists, explained Eva Galperin, the director of cybersecurity at the Electronic Frontier Foundation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The only way to really do that is to “live as a hermit on a mountain and fling all of your devices into the sea,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Instead, Galperin said, it’s more helpful to think about what advocates like her call “threat modeling”: What you want to protect and who you want to protect it from.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069526\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12069526 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/DataPrivacyGetty-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A worst-case scenario of having your digital privacy breached: Losing out financially. \u003ccite>(Rain Star/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Some of the common threat models you might consider:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Being scammed online by ransomware …\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For most people, their threat is scammers looking for money, access to their accounts or access to people who trust them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One of the big problems that we have right now is that we are in a golden age of grift,” Galperin explained. And if you have a phone, email address or any way of being reached, you are “constantly getting messages from scammers and criminals.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of us feel very smart because every day we get targeted with, like, six of these things and we don’t fall for it,” she said. “But what’s really important to understand is that all a scammer needs is for you to have one bad day.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A common method is ransomware, in which a scammer tricks you into downloading software that locks up your devices and holds them hostage until you pay a ransom — or in some cases, uses such software to spy on you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>… or a phishing attempt\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Phishing entails a bad actor pretending to be someone you trust — a bank, a friend, a family member — and luring you into clicking on a link, or logging into a fake website to obtain information.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You may be able to tell you are being phished by viewing the message closely and noticing inconsistencies, like the email address being slightly wrong.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A sort of indicator of a scam is a sense of urgency,” Galperin said. “‘Something is on fire,’ ‘an emergency is happening’ or ‘you could get rich if you click here in the next five minutes.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That sense of urgency is aimed at overriding your common sense,” she warned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Being tracked as someone seeking an abortion\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Experts worry about the digital safety of people seeking reproductive care across state borders following the overturning of Roe v. Wade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Abortion advocates have taken \u003ca href=\"https://digitaldefensefund.org/\">major steps to educate people\u003c/a> in states that severely restrict abortion on how to cover their tracks in pursuing the procedure elsewhere, including turning off their location. (Read \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12014633/how-do-i-protect-my-privacy-if-im-seeking-an-abortion\">The Markup’s thorough guide on protecting your privacy if you are seeking an abortion\u003c/a>.)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When communicating about abortion, a major way that patients and providers can protect their messages is to use an encrypted app, like \u003ca href=\"https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/categories/5592576449306-Getting-Started\">Signal\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this case, end-to-end encryption means that your telecommunications company and the messaging platform can’t read your messages.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Being threatened as a survivor of domestic abuse\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Creating a threat model for scenarios like domestic abuse is harder, often because an abuser can gain physical access to a person’s possessions, like their phone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When talking to survivors of domestic abuse who are attempting to leave an abuser, Galperin said the first thing she suggests is creating a new account — or a device — where they know their communications will be safe and private.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"WhatshouldIthinkaboutwhenIpost\">\u003c/a>How can my posts and videos reveal too much about my location?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Always review what you are posting before you post it, JoseMonkey said — even though “many people” never take this step.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They record something, and they just press send,” he said. And a person may not even realize “that there was some big thing that they forgot that they didn’t want to include,” he warns, until the post is out there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This could, for example, be a visible street sign behind you, which can be easily remedied by cropping it out or covering it with text or \u003ca href=\"https://help.instagram.com/151273688993748/\">a sticker\u003c/a> — or just rerecording the video to keep it out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11732621\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11732621 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/03/gettyimages-936083116_slide-3e70954a8411a47eae7fed29faec169c8c9a7088-e1552499753206.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">How can you protect your digital privacy online, especially when it comes to sharing details on social media? \u003ccite>(Chandan Khanna/AFP/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A more subtle aspect people may not think about? “The more you move the camera, the more information you’re going to show,” JoseMonkey said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If you’re out for a walk somewhere, people can see everything around you,” he added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Many people record videos in their car, but “people underestimate how much you can see through the windows of your car,” JoseMonkey warned. And if the car’s mirrors or its GPS are visible, that’s more information being shared.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Be mindful of your posting history — “you may not remember that three years ago, you posted something that’s still there on your account that revealed some other bit of information,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And this could be spread across several platforms. You tweeted something on one account, you posted a picture on another, have your LinkedIn on another, and a larger picture about you is created.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Now people have all these bits and pieces of information about you,” JoseMonkey said — and you’ve potentially made it far easier for someone to find you.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"WhatarethefirststepsIcantaketowarddigitalhygiene\">\u003c/a>OK, I’m convinced. What should my first steps to improve my digital safety be?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>While the world of surveillance and privacy can be \u003cem>incredibly \u003c/em>overwhelming (and scary), it shouldn’t completely discourage you from adopting good practices that are attainable for anyone with a phone or computer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Consider the following checklist a form of basic digital hygiene — like washing your hands — that can help make you safer from the “kinds of threats that most people face every day,” Galperin explained.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11947072\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11947072 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/04/RS40986_iStock-1170728885-qut.jpg\" alt=\"A close up of a woman's hands as she holds a smartphone and is swiping the screen. She wears an orange jacket.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/04/RS40986_iStock-1170728885-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/04/RS40986_iStock-1170728885-qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/04/RS40986_iStock-1170728885-qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/04/RS40986_iStock-1170728885-qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/04/RS40986_iStock-1170728885-qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">What are some easy digital habits you can pick up in the new year that can protect your privacy online? \u003ccite>(istock/GaudiLab)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Strengthen — and manage — your passwords — and get a password manager\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To secure your accounts, Galperin said, you should make sure:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>All of your passwords are different from one another\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>The passwords are long\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Use a password manager like \u003ca href=\"https://bitwarden.com/\">Bitwarden\u003c/a> or \u003ca href=\"https://proton.me/pass\">ProtonPass\u003c/a>, a secure application that manages, stores and even creates passkeys to different websites (you may need to pay for this service, although \u003ca href=\"https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-google-and-microsoft-offer-free-password-managers-but-should-you-use-them/\">free password managers are available too\u003c/a>)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>“Your password manager will be unlocked with a single password,” Galperin said. “That single password again should be long and strong, and easy for you to memorize.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To make this single password easier to manage, Galperin recommends using a pass phrase instead: “Like five or six words, chosen at random.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In choosing a password manager, Galperin said that you should search the name of the application and “security incident” — to make sure the password manager you’re considering doesn’t have a history of being broken into. For example, LastPass — once one of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/best-password-managers/\">more popular password managers\u003c/a> — has faced controversy for \u003ca href=\"https://krebsonsecurity.com/2025/03/feds-link-150m-cyberheist-to-2022-lastpass-hacks/\">a 2022 breach that still sees theft today\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If it has a history of being untrustworthy, don’t touch it,” she said. But “if you don’t find a bunch of security incidents, it’s probably OK or good enough.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ultimately, though, the best password manager is the “one you actually use,” and that fits your daily life, Galperin said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If you spend a bunch of time getting a top-of-the-line password manager and then you only put two passwords in it, then you haven’t really done yourself a lot of good,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Install two-factor authentication\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Two-factor authentication, or 2FA — also called multi-factor authentication or MFA — adds another layer of protection to your account beyond just your password. Many websites and applications encourage you to activate 2FA on your profiles, like \u003ca href=\"https://help.instagram.com/566810106808145\">Instagram\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/articles/219576828-Setting-up-Multi-Factor-Authentication\">Discord\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/185839?hl=en&co=GENIE.Platform%3DDesktop\">Gmail\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>How it looks for most users: you enter your password, and then the website will send a unique code to you through SMS (a text) or to your email account, which you then enter back into the website. After that, you will have access to your account.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Galperin points out that contrary to what you might assume, getting a code through SMS is actually “the least secure way” of protecting your account — because “SMS messages are not encrypted,” and it’s “possible to intercept them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While SMS is better than nothing in most cases, Galperin recommended instead using an authenticator app, which syncs to your account and receives your code. Examples of \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-two-factor-authentication-app/\">these kinds of apps\u003c/a> include \u003ca href=\"https://duo.com/\">Duo Mobile\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/1066447\">Google Authenticator\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another layer of security could be getting a physical key: a keychain-sized flash drive that you can insert into your devices, allowing you to log in. But keep in mind, “if you break your physical key and you don’t have a backup key somewhere, you can end up locked out of your account,” Galperin said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She also doesn’t recommend using a physical key to survivors of domestic abuse, or anyone in “a situation in which you need to secure your account against somebody who has physical access to you.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pull your data from the brokers selling it\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Data brokers \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12055606/how-ice-is-using-your-data-and-what-you-can-do-about-it\">collect\u003c/a> your information and sell it through all sorts of means, including scraping from public records. These brokers can also grab personal information from tracking cookies, which can \u003ca href=\"https://socradar.io/blog/tracking-the-cookies-the-world-of-data-brokers/\">trace your browsing history and social media interactions\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You can mitigate the latter by installing an extension like \u003ca href=\"https://privacybadger.org/\">Privacy Badger\u003c/a> on your web browser, Galperin said. Privacy Badger’s website states that it stops advertisers and other third-party trackers from “secretly tracking where you go and what pages you look at on the web.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Californians can also \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/DROP/\">now fill out a request to the state to opt out of data brokers\u003c/a>, stopping them from storing and selling personal information. Keep in mind, these requests will only \u003ca href=\"https://privacy.ca.gov/drop/how-drop-works/\">start being processed by data brokers in August\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>More digital safety resources\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://ssd.eff.org/\">Electronic Frontier Foundation’s Surveillance Self-Defense\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.eff.org/pages/tools\">Tools from the Electronic Frontier Foundation\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.privacyguides.org/en/\">Privacy Guides\u003c/a> (\u003ca href=\"https://www.privacyguides.org/es/basics/why-privacy-matters/\">Español\u003c/a>)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Cornell University’s \u003ca href=\"https://ceta.tech.cornell.edu/resources\">Clinic to End Tech Abuse\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://themarkup.org/gentle-january/2024/01/31/overwhelmed-by-digital-privacy-reset-with-these-practical-tips\">The Markup\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://zebracrossing.narwhalacademy.org/\">Zebra Crossing\u003c/a> (\u003ca href=\"https://zebracrossing.narwhalacademy.org/index-%E7%B9%81%E9%AB%94%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87.html\">繁體中文\u003c/a>)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://digitalfirstaid.org/\">Digital First Aid Kit\u003c/a> (\u003ca href=\"https://digitalfirstaid.org/es/\">Español\u003c/a>)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://gameshotline.org/online-free-safety-guide/\">The Games and Online Harassment Hotline\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://privacyinternational.org/guides\">Privacy International\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://digitaldefensefund.org/\">Digital Defense Fund\u003c/a> (aimed at people seeking reproductive care)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.advancingjustice-aajc.org/digital-privacy-tips-abortion-seekers\">Asian Americans Advancing Justice\u003c/a> (aimed at people seeking reproductive care) (languages include \u003ca href=\"https://aajc.medium.com/%E5%A6%82%E4%BD%95%E4%BF%9D%E6%8A%A4%E8%87%AA%E5%B7%B1-%E6%B5%81%E4%BA%A7-%E5%8C%BB%E7%96%97%E9%9A%90%E7%A7%81%E6%95%B0%E5%AD%97%E5%AE%89%E5%85%A8%E6%8C%87%E5%8D%97-a5f690894c3\">简体中文\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://aajc.medium.com/paano-protektahan-ang-iyong-sarili-a6b2f743b019\">Tagalog\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://aajc.medium.com/%E0%B8%88%E0%B8%B0%E0%B8%9B%E0%B8%81%E0%B8%9B%E0%B9%89%E0%B8%AD%E0%B8%87%E0%B8%95%E0%B8%B1%E0%B8%A7%E0%B9%80%E0%B8%AD%E0%B8%87%E0%B8%AD%E0%B8%A2%E0%B9%88%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%87%E0%B9%84%E0%B8%A3-7a92019678c2\">ภาษาไทย\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://aajc.medium.com/l%C3%A0m-th%E1%BA%BF-n%C3%A0o-%C4%91%E1%BB%83-b%E1%BA%A3o-v%E1%BB%87-b%E1%BA%A3n-th%C3%A2n-4aadd977d030\">Tiếng Việt\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.advancingjustice-aajc.org/sites/default/files/Bengali_Digital%20Privacy%20One%20Pager%20_%20Designed.pdf\">বাংলা\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.advancingjustice-aajc.org/sites/default/files/Khmer_Digital%20Privacy%20One%20Pager%20_%20Designed.pdf\">ខ្មែរ\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.advancingjustice-aajc.org/sites/default/files/Korean_Digital%20Privacy%20One%20Pager%20_%20Designed.pdf\">한국어\u003c/a>.)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://maskon.zone/\">Mask On Zone\u003c/a> (aimed at people going to protests)\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://activistchecklist.org/\">Digital Security Checklists for Activists\u003c/a> (aimed at people going to protests and organizers)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How easy is it to find someone from a single video posted online? To find out, Morgan put her own privacy to the test. She asked TikTok creator JoseMonkey, who’s famous for geolocating people who send him videos asking to be found, to track her down. JoseMonkey started as a geolocation hobbyist who turned to creating videos to bring attention to common mistakes people make when posting online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Morgan breaks down why personal operational security matters and what digital hygiene actually looks like in practice. JoseMonkey walks through how he finds people using the smallest scraps of information, and the steps you can take to make sure you aren’t exposing too much in your posts. And Eva Galperin, cybersecurity director of Electronic Frontier Foundation, explains how to use a process called “threat modeling” to protect your online privacy in a way that’s practical rather than paranoid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4398554612\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://josemonkey.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jose Monkey\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, content creator and online privacy advocate\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.eff.org/about/staff/eva-galperin\">Eva Galperin\u003c/a>, director of cybersecurity at the Electronic Frontier Foundation\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We partnered with KQED’s audience news team on a companion guide that breaks down online privacy in a clear, shareable format. You can find it, along with other explainers and guides, on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/explainers\">KQED’s explainers page\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/how-tos/2025/06/06/have-llms-finally-mastered-geolocation/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Have LLMs Finally Mastered Geolocation?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Foeke Postma and Nathan Patin, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bellingcat\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://ssd.eff.org/\">Surveillance Self-Defense\u003c/a> — The Electronic Frontier Foundation\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j00qG1bDlP8\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How micro-online posting can be a macro privacy risk \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— JoseMonkey, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TedX Talks\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of us might feel pretty confident about our online privacy. But how confident are you, really? Enough to challenge Josemonkey? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m JoseMonkey and I find people who ask to be found. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip 1 from JoseMonkey TikTok video]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey, JoseMonkey, where am I? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip 2 from JoseMonkey TikTok video] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tell me where I am, JoseMonkey. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip 3 from JoseMonkey TikTok video]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">JoseMonkey, please come and find me\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You may have seen Jose’s videos on TikTok or YouTube. He’s a content creator, online privacy advocate, and amateur geolocation researcher.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People send me videos recorded from all over the world, and I try to figure out where those videos were recorded and say, you know, here is where you were when you did that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oversharing is the social norm online. Take one scroll through any social media app, and count how many posts you see of someone else’s private life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I, for one, tend to be overly cautious when it comes to posting and privacy. As a journalist, and also someone who’s been maybe too online since a young age, I don’t know how to not post. But I also take my privacy very seriously and take precautions when I post. I scrutinize every photo and video to make sure that there’s nothing identifiable like street names or even window views. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I share my location with trusted loved ones on “Find My Friends,” but you’ll never catch me publicly posting about where I am until after I’ve left. I don’t like the idea of total strangers knowing where I am at any given moment.But for the sake of content and this show, I faced my fears and asked Jose to find me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan video for JoseMonkey 1]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi Josemonkey, I’ll give you a hint. I am somewhere in Los Angeles. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I recorded that video, wiped the location metadata and then triple checked that it was in fact wiped, and then sent it off to Jose. We got on a call a few days later. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, I have to say that video, um, I don’t know if, if it is possible for me to find it or not. I will be, you know, totally transparent and say that,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Honestly? I went out of my way to give Jose a bit of a challenge. I recorded this video across the street from a strip of bars and restaurants in East Los Angeles. I took it at night, with the flash on, so the background was pretty dark. In fact, Jose wasn’t able to find me by the time I interviewed him a few days later.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s not a lot of writing. I think there was the word public, um, it looked like, uh, behind you, um, on a building. But other than that, there really wasn’t a lot to see there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was convinced that I had done it. I was the one who stumped JoseMonkey. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My stranger danger philosophy finally paid off. Until Jose emailed me two weeks later with Google Maps coordinates. There, on Eagle Rock Boulevard, was a little red pin where I had parked and recorded the video before heading to the wine bar. So, I called up Jose again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I, I found an area that looked like it might be right, so I was like checking to look at, and I, and I panned over and I saw the words on there and I was like, wait a minute. And I was like, if that says public, and, uh, I, I audibly gasped. I could not believe I found it. It was a bit of needle in the haystack.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I also can’t believe you found it. And it’s funny because I went through the effort of like, I even cropped in the video a bit, so you couldn’t even see, I don’t think you could see any street signs. I was like, I’m gonna make sure you can’t even see the corner of the sidewalk. In case that’s like a hint.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>JoseMonkey: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I basically sent you a video that I would’ve recorded and put online myself, um, knowing that I am a little bit paranoid about this kind of thing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. So I think that’s a really good point and I think that’s why it’s a good example because while I like to, you know, come up with clever ways to find people, um, the important takeaway here is that a sufficiently motivated individual who has an attention to detail and time to spend can find you from a video like that now. Again, I don’t wanna scare people by saying that, but, uh, people should know it is possible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s not just what you post that makes your privacy vulnerable. Your digital footprint includes all of your online activity. Passwords, location data, banking details, and tons of other sensitive information can be obtained regardless of your social media use. That information, in the hands of bad actors can be used for scams, stalking, and a whole slate of nefarious activities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what does practicing digital hygiene entail? How do you make yourself less findable, without giving up on the internet entirely? And, the burning question: How did JoseMonkey find me? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this is a practice known as Personal OpSec. That’s short for Operations Security. It involves assessing risk and taking precautions to protect your personal information. Essentially, trying to minimize your digital footprint. And this can be super overwhelming, especially if you, like many other people, have used the internet for the last 20 years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s start by breaking down how bad actors get a hold of this information. And it usually starts with details that are already posted on public social media accounts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Time to open our first tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How do you find someone online? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jose spent a lot of time trying to find me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So for the, the video that you sent me from Los Angeles, there was not really a lot of information there. Honestly, it was a grind. I was looking at just many, many different locations.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some of the things I observed, um, as I did that is that your video had utility poles on the side of the road that you were on, as well as on the other side. And, um, it seems like a small detail, but not every street in LA has those kinds of utility poles and doesn’t necessarily have them on both sides. The intersection that you were sort of close to wasn’t at like a 90 degree intersection. It was at sort of an angle and I could tell that there was a road kind of coming into another road where there was what appeared to be, like, a median in the middle because we have a bush that appears just like in the middle of the road. So I knew that, that that had to be a divided road, which again, you know, helps to, helps to limit the number of possible places, right? So, um, so long story short, and I probably spent hours. It was multiple hours for sure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s worth noting that Jose doesn’t have a background in privacy or security. He was a geolocation hobbyist for over a decade—a hobby that revolves around online maps and location data. This hobby made him more aware of how much people were sharing about themselves online and how that information could be used against them. So a few years ago, he decided to raise awareness by using an approach that would actually get people to pay attention. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I had this idea that maybe I could demonstrate that, through a video in which I would walk through the process of how I could look at a seemingly, you know, um, you know, mundane video that doesn’t show very much and show how I was able to figure out exactly where it was. And I, I thought that might be something that people would think was both interesting, but maybe slightly unsettling and then they would, you know, pay attention to this, um, this idea of, of, uh, internet safety.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When someone first, uh, tags you in a video and they’re like, hi, JoseMonkey, please find me. Um, you pull up that video, what’s the first thing you do?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> First I download the videos so that I can get them on a big screen. I can, you know, freeze frame, slow it down, zoom way in, all the things that are gonna give me the best shot at seeing everything that’s in the video. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jose isn’t using highly technical or exclusive tools in his process. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People often joke that like, oh, you must be with one of the three letter agencies. Nah, I’m just a regular guy and I’m just using, you know, the same stuff that, that you have access to on your computer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You might see this one tag on his videos: OSINT. That’s the practice of using open source intelligence or publicly available sources to collect and analyze information. Those sources can include public government databases, mapping tools like Google Maps, or crowdsourced projects like OpenStreetMap, a collaborative map of the world. And sometimes, it gets a little more niche. You know those sites where train hobbyists track railroad routes, or preservationists archive old headstones in cemeteries? Turns out, those niche sites are super helpful for geolocation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Just the other day I posted a video in which I found someone who was standing in a, a park near a, a bridge\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and I happen to know that there is a website that catalogs historic bridges and that you can search for them by various different characteristics of those bridges, like, what kind of bridge it is, what, what the bridge carries, how many spans it has, things like that. And, um, I was able to find them actually fairly quickly just by using, you know, that database to look up, uh, the bridges that matched the criteria I was looking for. So that was a very specific case. Like I knew I needed a bridge, so I used a bridge website, right. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But sometimes I will need to correlate bits of information I see in the video, like, you’re at a particular brand of gas station and it’s close to a water tower and also very close to, I don’t know, say like a, a golf course. Like, if I can see all those things in a video, there are tools that you can use to, uh, find those things in close proximity to each other. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When people record videos, usually if you record a video that you’re posting on the internet or a photo, whatever it is, you are usually very focused on the things in the foreground: yourself, your cat, whatever you’re, you know, you’re recording a video of. But it’s all the things in the background that I’m looking at. So I’m just trying to see was there a sign you didn’t realize was there? Is there, uh, a car with a license plate that might tell me what state this is, things like that. I’m looking at all the details in the background. Very specifically, anything with writing on it is always, um, something that to me, um, you know, is, is likely to be useful in my search.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sometimes, a person might not even need those little details to find someone else’s location, because an app will do the work for them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So before Jose was able to find my first location in Los Angeles, I had actually sent him a second video, as a backup, in case he couldn’t find me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Morgan video for JoseMonkey 2]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s a hint … I am not in LA anymore … Good luck with the search! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He was able to locate that one pretty quickly and wanted to highlight a specific tool he used. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, some of the things we can see in that video are what appears to be an outdoor hockey rink. Um. It’s, uh, it is near a fairly large body of water. I didn’t know if it was a lake or a river or a bay or what it was.But it looked pretty big. Across the water. We can see some, some buildings and they look like older buildings, maybe brick buildings. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jose started looking for outdoor hockey rinks near bodies of water. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I used a different tool and this is a thing that I feel like people should know about. I used a reverse image search tool. The specific one I used is Google Lens, which many people are probably, uh, familiar with. What it does is you can take a picture, whether it’s just a photograph or a still frame from a video and plug that into this tool, and it will try to find images online that match that thing. And frequently it can tell you where a place is. So I, I guess you were in Queens, like Bayside, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Exactly there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I was able to plug that into Google Lens and it showed me somebody’s Instagram post, which was taken very near there. And it wasn’t obvious at first exactly where it was, but it was pretty straightforward from there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jose doesn’t like to use Google Lens for his videos, because he said it takes the fun out of the game. For him, finding people is like solving a puzzle. But he pointed out that AI-powered tools like Google Lens are becoming increasingly common. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, there are fancy tools and sophisticated queries that you can do to find all sorts of places, and I love doing that. But sometimes it’s either somebody with access to something like Google Lens that we all have access to, or somebody who’s just willing to look at the streets of Los Angeles for hours on end. Um, so people need to know that. Those are all possibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so now that we understand how people can be found through their videos, let’s talk about how to avoid being found. And no, you don’t necessarily have to move off the grid and stop using the internet entirely to do that. We’re talking about internet safety … that’s after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How do you post safely? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back with JoseMonkey. He’s the TikTok creator who finds people, but only if they want to be found. If you don’t want to be found? He’s going to walk us through some of the most common mistakes that people make when posting photos or videos of themselves online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One mistake that is really easy to rectify is really to just review what you’re posting before you post it. Many people really don’t, they record something and they just press send, whatever the button says in the app.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know, if they’re recording those things and not really reviewing them, they may not even realize that there was like some big thing that they forgot that they didn’t want to include. And sometimes fixing that is so easy. Most of the social media apps, even if you record a video in app, they give you editing tools to trim and, you know, edit or, or put a sticker, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So like, even if you recorded a video and you realize after the fact, once you review it, that, oh no, there was a street sign right behind me that tells everybody where I was. You can either trim that piece out, sometimes you can put a sticker over it in the app and you know, those can be good ways to obscure the information or, you know, if there’s time you might be able to just rerecord it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But if you never reviewed it, you wouldn’t even have a chance to figure that out and it might be out there before you even realize what you know, what information you revealed. So I’d say that’s a really big one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I feel like there are very obvious ways to find people. Like I see so many videos of people posting their new apartment tours or posting their walk from their home, from the front door of their home all the way to like, walking their kids to school, you know, and like kind of showing that whole walk. And that’s pretty obvious, like, that is a safety risk. But what are the more, I guess, subtle tells that people should be more aware of?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The more you move the camera, the more information you’re going to show. So I think people don’t realize sometimes, it’s definitely true that like if you’re out for a walk somewhere, people can see everything around you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sometimes people record videos in their car, even in moving cars, which I don’t really recommend because it’s not particularly safe. But I think people underestimate how much you can see through the windows of your car. I think they think that, like, they’re in their car, it’s kinda like being in their house and, you know, nobody’s gonna see anything. But that is not always the case. Sometimes you can see quite a lot through the rear windshield, through the windows, sometimes even in the mirrors. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another thing I would say about cars is that sometimes people really don’t think about the fact that most of us have a GPS in our car that tells you where you are at any given time. And if you just happen to be recording in your car and you just are looking around and you show people your GPS, well you just told everybody where you are. So I think that it is good to consider each individual video, or photo or whatever you’re creating.But it’s also important to consider the aggregate. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it may be that you only revealed one little piece of information in your video that tells people something, but you may not remember that like three years ago, you posted something that’s still there on your account that revealed some other bit of information. Right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another thing that I would say is your digital footprint is really bigger than one account or one platform. Chances are you have lots of different accounts and now it’s like, okay, well now I have this whole, you know, just wealth of data about you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So if, two years ago, you tweeted something and it kind of gave people a vague idea of what city you lived in. And then over on Instagram you posted something else that shows your face, right? And so now people they know what city you live in, they know what you look like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then maybe on some other social media site, maybe you use your real name, right? Like, maybe your LinkedIn is connected there and now that says like your full name and where you work. So now people have like, you know, all these bits and pieces of information about you, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that it’s really worth everyone’s time to consider like, how much of my information do I want out there? And if you feel like, you know, well, I’m not really at risk there, well then, you know, you can roll the dice and see what happens.But people’s information ends up getting leaked even when they’re being relatively good about it. So some people are just like, well, you know, why should I bother? But you don’t necessarily need to make it easier for people. Right? Just because it’s already possible that they might get your information some other way.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I would say there’s never a better time to start, you know, policing your own internet hygiene than when you realize you made a mistake. Practicing it is really the best thing you can do because it becomes easier when you’re in the habit of reviewing the video, you’re in the habit of saying like, oh wait, what was in shot when I took, that photo? It becomes a bit second nature, I think.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Digital hygiene involves more than just what you post. Your social accounts might be private, or, you might not use social media at all. But you probably still use the internet—for online shopping, or job applications, or just logging into your banking app. All of that involves a feast of personal data which might land in the wrong hands. So how do you protect it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is a threat model? \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Eva Galperin is the director of cybersecurity at the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a nonprofit organization that advocates for digital privacy and free speech. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So trying to protect everything from everybody all the time is, uh, is overwhelming and confusing, and honestly, you don’t need to do it. The only way to protect everything from everybody all the time is to go live as a hermit, on a mountain and fling all of your devices into the sea, uh, which is presumably located near this mountain.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t panic though, Eva’s going to explain why you don’t need to do all that just to stay safe. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Threat modeling is, uh, a way of thinking about. Uh, what you wanna protect, who you want to protect it from, uh, in such a way that leads you to the appropriate mitigation so that you do the stuff that protects the things that are important in cases that are likely to happen instead of spending all of your time just becoming a hermit and fleeing your devices into the ocean.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Threat modeling is important, because everyone has different security needs. It involves asking yourself a series of questions: what you want to protect? who you want to protect it from? How do you want to protect it? how bad will the consequences be if you fail? And how far are you willing to go to protect it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, I have a very precious American Girl doll that I’ve had since I was a kid—that’s what I want to protect. Who do I want to protect it from? My rambunctious family members who are a bit too young to play with it. How bad are the consequences if I fail? Well, my doll’s hair will probably never be the same. How much trouble am I willing to go through to prevent that? I’m not going to go as far as locking the doll away in some museum grade case—keeping it on a shelf that the kids can’t reach until they’re older will probably be enough. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s threat modeling, but the cherished childhood toy is your personal information. Who you want to protect it from, and how you need to protect it, depends on your situation. And threat modeling looks different for everyone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For example, abortion is now illegal in 13 states. Let’s look at the needs of those involved in abortion access—a group that will want to protect themselves and patients from government surveillance. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Someone who volunteers to drive patients to and from their abortions might use a VPN and a secondary, anonymous social account for their volunteer work. They may use an encrypted messaging app like Signal to communicate with patients. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Presumably you are not interested in having some sort of third party get their hands on those messages. A lot of the time people will tell you, you know, our messages are encrypted. Encryption is a term that could mean a lot of different things. And sometimes what it means is that the message is encrypted in transit, meaning that like, a third party, like the telco, can’t read it. And sometimes it is end-to-end encrypted, meaning that even the platform that you are on is unable to read your messages. And this is really important because if governments and law enforcement wanna get their hands on your messages, what they do is they show up with like, a warrant or a subpoena to the telco or to the company.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so if the telco or the company doesn’t have that information, then they need to show up to you in order to get that information, or they need to show up to the person who is on the other end of that conversation, and that gives you the ability to go lawyer up and potentially fight this subpoena and to know when your information is being handed out, which is a thing that you would not, uh, necessarily know otherwise. So what you should be looking for in your messaging service is end-to-end encryption. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anyone involved in abortion access may also disable location services or turn off their phone when they’re around reproductive healthcare clinics. And why does that matter? Well … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So there is an entire industry of people who run around building up sort of profiles of people based on who they are and where they’re going, and what websites they look at, and what apps they download and where they are located, what their preferences are, what they buy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And what they do is they gather up all of this information. Uh, sometimes they, uh, gather it from many different sources and then they aggregate it in order to make an even more detailed and clear picture about who you are. And then they turn around and they sell this information usually to advertisers, or to people who are interested in sort of targeting certain kinds of groups with advertising but also to governments and law enforcements and even to individuals. You can sign up for, uh, all kinds of data broker services. They market themselves as people finder sites and you can find out a lot about people simply by subscribing to one of those and entering the information that you want about somebody into one of those. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A journalist covering abortion, on the other hand, will have a different threat model, especially when it comes to protecting their sources and themselves.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Some of the other things that you might want to do as a journalist is you might wanna think about the way in which you communicate with your sources, especially if your sources prefer to remain anonymous. You wanna make sure that you can protect them. So you might wanna communicate with them through Signal, for example, instead of over WhatsApp or over SMS or carrier pigeon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You may also wanna think about anti-harassment. One of the big problems that journalists face, especially female journalists and journalists from marginalized groups and communities, is they disproportionately face harassment for their work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you might wanna think about just doing a full review of what it is possible to find out about you online through like, a simple search engine search. And if you find stuff that you think is, may potentially be used against you by harassers, you can take that stuff down. You can lock it up. You can make those posts private, If it is on a platform that has, uh, you know, the ability to make private posts, um. Or if somebody else is hosting it, this is actually one of the most common sources of, uh, sort of data leaks about our private lives. It’s not, uh, our posting stuff about where we are and what we’re doing, but our friends posting stuff and often they will. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It would also behoove journalists to talk to their friends and family and their colleagues about how they talk about each other in public spaces. And I don’t mean like at the cafe, I mean like in digital public spaces where, where everything can be seen, where you just make an agreement that you’re not going to post stuff about each other, uh, without permission. So if you’re gonna post a photo that your friend is in, you just ask your friend in advance.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And sometimes the threat isn’t anonymous trolls, the government, or friends from afar. It could be the people you live with.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Threat modeling for domestic abuse situations is actually incredibly hard. Uh, one of the reasons for that is because you are dealing with a person who has physical access to your stuff, who may be able to compel you to hand over your passwords to your various devices, who knows you and your friends and where you are likely to go.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s very difficult to come up with a way to fool someone with whom you have a very close romantic connection because they could, you know, they could call up your friends and family and tell them, I’m just really concerned about my partner and their wellbeing, so if you could just tell me where they are. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s one of the things that I see the most often and so when I talk to survivors of domestic abuse who are looking for a way to leave their abuser, the very first thing that I do is I try to help them just come up with like one account or one device, or one platform where they know their communications are safe.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, threat modeling looks different for everyone. If you’re not a journalist, or an activist, or celebrity, or influencer, or anyone else in a public-facing, highly scrutinized career, what’s the threat? For most people, it’s the scammers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of the big problems that we have right now is that we are in a golden age of grift. This is, if you exist in the digital world at all, if you have a phone, if you have an email address, if you have ways of getting messages sent to you, then you’re constantly getting messages from scammers and from criminals, and often they’re, they’re after different things. In the long term what they’re after is usually money, sometimes. In the short term what they’re after is access to your accounts, or access to other people who trust you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One common method is known as ransomware, which is a type of malware, an umbrella term for malicious software. Bad actors trick you into downloading software that locks up your device and holds it hostage until you pay a ransom. Do they unlock your device once you pay? Not always. Sometimes, adversaries use malware to spy on you, control your devices, and steal your information.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A more common threat is known as phishing. That’s phishing with a PH. Sometimes, it arrives in your inbox with the same logo and name as your bank, inviting you to log in. But if you look closer, the email address is slightly off. Or it could look like someone claiming to be your boss, instructing you to log into your work account as soon as possible. They even impersonate family members and partners. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Basically, phishing scams pretend to be someone you trust, and they lure you to click on a link, or log into their fake site, in order to obtain your username and password. Sometimes, clicking on a phishing attack link also installs malware, so it’s a real double whammy of security hell.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Some of the stuff to look for as a sort of indicator of a scam is a sense of urgency. Something is on fire, an emergency is happening, or like you could get rich if you click here in the next like five minutes. And that sense of urgency is aimed at overriding your common sense. And a lot of us feel very smart because, you know, every day we get targeted with like six of these things and we don’t fall for it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what’s really important to understand is that all the scammer needs is for you to have one bad day. If they come at you half a dozen times a day, eventually you’re gonna be tired, you’re gonna be cranky. Something’s gonna look plausible to you. And even the smartest person, even the most, you know, technically adept and aware person can get scammed and can end up sort of the, the victim of one of these grifters.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have to stay humble. We need to maintain eternal vigilance and also we need to not blame the people who fall for these things. I think that there’s a lot of like, well, you’re, you’re just too dumb. You didn’t see it. I wouldn’t have clicked on that. And I think that kind of victim blaming really is counterproductive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, so we’ve covered threat modeling. Luckily, there are precautions you can take that might give you a few extra layers of protection in case you do fall for one of these scams. They’re also just good habits for everyone. What do they look like in practice?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Let’s open one last tab.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Digital hygiene checklist. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well the good news is that there’s some just basic like wash-your-hands, data privacy hygiene that everyone can engage in that will make things safer for them from most of the kinds of threats that most people face every day,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> First on the checklist: Passwords \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Secure your accounts. In order to secure your accounts, you wanna make sure that all of your passwords are different from one another, and that they are long.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because a long password is what makes a password harder to crack. But then you are left with the question of how are you going to remember all of these very long, strong passwords that are different from one another? And for that, you use a password manager. So I recommend that everybody install a password manager on their devices. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Your password manager will be unlocked with a single password. That single password, again, should be long and strong and easy for you to memorize. In order to make it easier for you to memorize, I usually recommend a pass phrase, like five or six words chosen at random, because that’s easier to remember than just like 40 or 50 random numbers and letters. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are a couple of things that you should think about. The most important one is to go to your nearest friendly search engine and do a search on the name of the passport manager and security incident. So you wanna go look to see whether or not it has a history of being broken into, a history of being untrustworthy. If it has a history of being untrustworthy, don’t touch it. If you don’t find a bunch of security incidents, it’s probably okay or good enough. The best password manager is the one that you actually use. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then there’s a nifty little shield called two-factor authentication. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So two-factor authentication just means that in order to get into this account, you now need two things instead of one thing. You need the password and you need an authentication code, which is sent to you in some fashion. The most common way in which we receive authentication codes is usually over SMS.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So you are sent a text message. That text message goes to your phone. This is the least secure way of securing an account. And the reason for this is SMS messages are not encrypted, which means that it is possible to intercept them, for example, at the Telco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is much easier for other people to get their hands on these messages and to use them to log into your account. Uh, it is still better than nothing in most cases. Having 2FA over SMS is in most cases probably better than having no 2FA at all. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the better way in which to have your second factor of authentication work is through an authenticator app. So you install an app on your device, and what it does is you sync it to your account and when you are logging in you go to the app and it will give you the code that you enter in addition to your password. This is safer because it is not sending that data over SMS. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For extra security, some people might opt for a physical key, which is almost like a little keychain-sized flash drive you stick into your devices to log in. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Now this is both good and bad, if you lose your physical key, you are permanently locked out of your device. So the bad news is it works. This also means that if you break your physical key and you don’t have like, a backup key somewhere, you can end up locked out of your account.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And most importantly, if you are in a situation in which you need to secure your account against somebody who has access to your stuff, who has physical access to you, who might get their hands on your key chain, where you have put all of your physical keys, then this is especially unsafe. So this is not a solution that I recommend, uh, to survivors of domestic abuse, whose abusers still have physical access to them or the spaces they’re in or to their stuff.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then, there’s dodging the data brokers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The other thing that you might wanna do is, with your web browser, you might want to install Privacy Badger, which is a web extension which eats tracking cookies. One of the ways in which data brokers figure out where you’re going from one website to another and what you are doing is through the use of cookies. And if you have a web extension that makes it impossible for those cookies to follow you across the web, that makes things more difficult. So those are the basic things that are probably very good for everyone to do and that will take care of most of your problems most of the time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">See, that’s not so bad, is it? You don’t need the shiniest, most expensive, top of the line cybersecurity tools just to stay safe online. Most of the time, a little digital hand washing goes a long way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The truth here is that trying to protect everything from everybody all the time is a good way to drive yourself insane. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Some people are almost like either overwhelmed by the idea of having to lock it all down, or some people are almost like resigned to a world without privacy because that’s just the new normal. What would you say to them? Why does privacy still matter?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well to begin with, you don’t have to lock it all down. You really don’t. You can still exist in the world. The whole idea behind privacy is not that, again, you should be a hermit who lives on a mountain with no devices. The idea behind securing your digital existence and understanding your footprint on the internet is to enable you to do the things that you want to do and that are important to you in the safest possible way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, before you post yourself, and especially before posting other people, consider practicing a little digital hygiene—at least a spritz of some digital hand sanitizer. As you can hear from my voice today, it’s flu season, after all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We also teamed up with KQED’s audience news team on a digital guide that breaks down everything we talked about today in a convenient, shareable format. You can find that guide, and a bunch of other great explainers, at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/explainers\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED.org/explainers\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And check the show notes for more privacy and security resources. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And one more quick thing before we go, we’re working on a Valentine’s Day episode and we want to hear from you! When do you think is the right time, if ever, to share your location with a significant other? Do you have a hot take on this, or a juicy story? Send us a voice note at closealltabs@kqed.org.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, now let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Hambrick. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Chris Egusa is our senior editor, and also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends, too. Or even your enemies! Or… frenemies? And if you \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate dot KQED dot org slash podcasts! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also, we want to hear from you! Email us CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. Follow us on instagram at “close all tabs pod.” Or TikTok at “close all tabs.” Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How easy is it to find someone from a single video posted online? To find out, Morgan put her own privacy to the test. She asked TikTok creator JoseMonkey, who’s famous for geolocating people who send him videos asking to be found, to track her down. JoseMonkey started as a geolocation hobbyist who turned to creating videos to bring attention to common mistakes people make when posting online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Morgan breaks down why personal operational security matters and what digital hygiene actually looks like in practice. JoseMonkey walks through how he finds people using the smallest scraps of information, and the steps you can take to make sure you aren’t exposing too much in your posts. And Eva Galperin, cybersecurity director of Electronic Frontier Foundation, explains how to use a process called “threat modeling” to protect your online privacy in a way that’s practical rather than paranoid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4398554612\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://josemonkey.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jose Monkey\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, content creator and online privacy advocate\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.eff.org/about/staff/eva-galperin\">Eva Galperin\u003c/a>, director of cybersecurity at the Electronic Frontier Foundation\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We partnered with KQED’s audience news team on a companion guide that breaks down online privacy in a clear, shareable format. You can find it, along with other explainers and guides, on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/explainers\">KQED’s explainers page\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/how-tos/2025/06/06/have-llms-finally-mastered-geolocation/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Have LLMs Finally Mastered Geolocation?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Foeke Postma and Nathan Patin, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bellingcat\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://ssd.eff.org/\">Surveillance Self-Defense\u003c/a> — The Electronic Frontier Foundation\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j00qG1bDlP8\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How micro-online posting can be a macro privacy risk \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— JoseMonkey, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TedX Talks\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of us might feel pretty confident about our online privacy. But how confident are you, really? Enough to challenge Josemonkey? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m JoseMonkey and I find people who ask to be found. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip 1 from JoseMonkey TikTok video]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey, JoseMonkey, where am I? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip 2 from JoseMonkey TikTok video] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tell me where I am, JoseMonkey. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip 3 from JoseMonkey TikTok video]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">JoseMonkey, please come and find me\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You may have seen Jose’s videos on TikTok or YouTube. He’s a content creator, online privacy advocate, and amateur geolocation researcher.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People send me videos recorded from all over the world, and I try to figure out where those videos were recorded and say, you know, here is where you were when you did that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oversharing is the social norm online. Take one scroll through any social media app, and count how many posts you see of someone else’s private life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I, for one, tend to be overly cautious when it comes to posting and privacy. As a journalist, and also someone who’s been maybe too online since a young age, I don’t know how to not post. But I also take my privacy very seriously and take precautions when I post. I scrutinize every photo and video to make sure that there’s nothing identifiable like street names or even window views. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I share my location with trusted loved ones on “Find My Friends,” but you’ll never catch me publicly posting about where I am until after I’ve left. I don’t like the idea of total strangers knowing where I am at any given moment.But for the sake of content and this show, I faced my fears and asked Jose to find me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Morgan video for JoseMonkey 1]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi Josemonkey, I’ll give you a hint. I am somewhere in Los Angeles. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I recorded that video, wiped the location metadata and then triple checked that it was in fact wiped, and then sent it off to Jose. We got on a call a few days later. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, I have to say that video, um, I don’t know if, if it is possible for me to find it or not. I will be, you know, totally transparent and say that,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Honestly? I went out of my way to give Jose a bit of a challenge. I recorded this video across the street from a strip of bars and restaurants in East Los Angeles. I took it at night, with the flash on, so the background was pretty dark. In fact, Jose wasn’t able to find me by the time I interviewed him a few days later.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s not a lot of writing. I think there was the word public, um, it looked like, uh, behind you, um, on a building. But other than that, there really wasn’t a lot to see there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was convinced that I had done it. I was the one who stumped JoseMonkey. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My stranger danger philosophy finally paid off. Until Jose emailed me two weeks later with Google Maps coordinates. There, on Eagle Rock Boulevard, was a little red pin where I had parked and recorded the video before heading to the wine bar. So, I called up Jose again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I, I found an area that looked like it might be right, so I was like checking to look at, and I, and I panned over and I saw the words on there and I was like, wait a minute. And I was like, if that says public, and, uh, I, I audibly gasped. I could not believe I found it. It was a bit of needle in the haystack.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I also can’t believe you found it. And it’s funny because I went through the effort of like, I even cropped in the video a bit, so you couldn’t even see, I don’t think you could see any street signs. I was like, I’m gonna make sure you can’t even see the corner of the sidewalk. In case that’s like a hint.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>JoseMonkey: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I basically sent you a video that I would’ve recorded and put online myself, um, knowing that I am a little bit paranoid about this kind of thing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. So I think that’s a really good point and I think that’s why it’s a good example because while I like to, you know, come up with clever ways to find people, um, the important takeaway here is that a sufficiently motivated individual who has an attention to detail and time to spend can find you from a video like that now. Again, I don’t wanna scare people by saying that, but, uh, people should know it is possible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s not just what you post that makes your privacy vulnerable. Your digital footprint includes all of your online activity. Passwords, location data, banking details, and tons of other sensitive information can be obtained regardless of your social media use. That information, in the hands of bad actors can be used for scams, stalking, and a whole slate of nefarious activities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what does practicing digital hygiene entail? How do you make yourself less findable, without giving up on the internet entirely? And, the burning question: How did JoseMonkey find me? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this is a practice known as Personal OpSec. That’s short for Operations Security. It involves assessing risk and taking precautions to protect your personal information. Essentially, trying to minimize your digital footprint. And this can be super overwhelming, especially if you, like many other people, have used the internet for the last 20 years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s start by breaking down how bad actors get a hold of this information. And it usually starts with details that are already posted on public social media accounts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Time to open our first tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How do you find someone online? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jose spent a lot of time trying to find me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So for the, the video that you sent me from Los Angeles, there was not really a lot of information there. Honestly, it was a grind. I was looking at just many, many different locations.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some of the things I observed, um, as I did that is that your video had utility poles on the side of the road that you were on, as well as on the other side. And, um, it seems like a small detail, but not every street in LA has those kinds of utility poles and doesn’t necessarily have them on both sides. The intersection that you were sort of close to wasn’t at like a 90 degree intersection. It was at sort of an angle and I could tell that there was a road kind of coming into another road where there was what appeared to be, like, a median in the middle because we have a bush that appears just like in the middle of the road. So I knew that, that that had to be a divided road, which again, you know, helps to, helps to limit the number of possible places, right? So, um, so long story short, and I probably spent hours. It was multiple hours for sure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s worth noting that Jose doesn’t have a background in privacy or security. He was a geolocation hobbyist for over a decade—a hobby that revolves around online maps and location data. This hobby made him more aware of how much people were sharing about themselves online and how that information could be used against them. So a few years ago, he decided to raise awareness by using an approach that would actually get people to pay attention. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I had this idea that maybe I could demonstrate that, through a video in which I would walk through the process of how I could look at a seemingly, you know, um, you know, mundane video that doesn’t show very much and show how I was able to figure out exactly where it was. And I, I thought that might be something that people would think was both interesting, but maybe slightly unsettling and then they would, you know, pay attention to this, um, this idea of, of, uh, internet safety.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When someone first, uh, tags you in a video and they’re like, hi, JoseMonkey, please find me. Um, you pull up that video, what’s the first thing you do?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> First I download the videos so that I can get them on a big screen. I can, you know, freeze frame, slow it down, zoom way in, all the things that are gonna give me the best shot at seeing everything that’s in the video. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jose isn’t using highly technical or exclusive tools in his process. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People often joke that like, oh, you must be with one of the three letter agencies. Nah, I’m just a regular guy and I’m just using, you know, the same stuff that, that you have access to on your computer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You might see this one tag on his videos: OSINT. That’s the practice of using open source intelligence or publicly available sources to collect and analyze information. Those sources can include public government databases, mapping tools like Google Maps, or crowdsourced projects like OpenStreetMap, a collaborative map of the world. And sometimes, it gets a little more niche. You know those sites where train hobbyists track railroad routes, or preservationists archive old headstones in cemeteries? Turns out, those niche sites are super helpful for geolocation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Just the other day I posted a video in which I found someone who was standing in a, a park near a, a bridge\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and I happen to know that there is a website that catalogs historic bridges and that you can search for them by various different characteristics of those bridges, like, what kind of bridge it is, what, what the bridge carries, how many spans it has, things like that. And, um, I was able to find them actually fairly quickly just by using, you know, that database to look up, uh, the bridges that matched the criteria I was looking for. So that was a very specific case. Like I knew I needed a bridge, so I used a bridge website, right. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But sometimes I will need to correlate bits of information I see in the video, like, you’re at a particular brand of gas station and it’s close to a water tower and also very close to, I don’t know, say like a, a golf course. Like, if I can see all those things in a video, there are tools that you can use to, uh, find those things in close proximity to each other. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When people record videos, usually if you record a video that you’re posting on the internet or a photo, whatever it is, you are usually very focused on the things in the foreground: yourself, your cat, whatever you’re, you know, you’re recording a video of. But it’s all the things in the background that I’m looking at. So I’m just trying to see was there a sign you didn’t realize was there? Is there, uh, a car with a license plate that might tell me what state this is, things like that. I’m looking at all the details in the background. Very specifically, anything with writing on it is always, um, something that to me, um, you know, is, is likely to be useful in my search.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sometimes, a person might not even need those little details to find someone else’s location, because an app will do the work for them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So before Jose was able to find my first location in Los Angeles, I had actually sent him a second video, as a backup, in case he couldn’t find me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Morgan video for JoseMonkey 2]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s a hint … I am not in LA anymore … Good luck with the search! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He was able to locate that one pretty quickly and wanted to highlight a specific tool he used. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, some of the things we can see in that video are what appears to be an outdoor hockey rink. Um. It’s, uh, it is near a fairly large body of water. I didn’t know if it was a lake or a river or a bay or what it was.But it looked pretty big. Across the water. We can see some, some buildings and they look like older buildings, maybe brick buildings. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jose started looking for outdoor hockey rinks near bodies of water. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I used a different tool and this is a thing that I feel like people should know about. I used a reverse image search tool. The specific one I used is Google Lens, which many people are probably, uh, familiar with. What it does is you can take a picture, whether it’s just a photograph or a still frame from a video and plug that into this tool, and it will try to find images online that match that thing. And frequently it can tell you where a place is. So I, I guess you were in Queens, like Bayside, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Exactly there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I was able to plug that into Google Lens and it showed me somebody’s Instagram post, which was taken very near there. And it wasn’t obvious at first exactly where it was, but it was pretty straightforward from there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jose doesn’t like to use Google Lens for his videos, because he said it takes the fun out of the game. For him, finding people is like solving a puzzle. But he pointed out that AI-powered tools like Google Lens are becoming increasingly common. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, there are fancy tools and sophisticated queries that you can do to find all sorts of places, and I love doing that. But sometimes it’s either somebody with access to something like Google Lens that we all have access to, or somebody who’s just willing to look at the streets of Los Angeles for hours on end. Um, so people need to know that. Those are all possibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so now that we understand how people can be found through their videos, let’s talk about how to avoid being found. And no, you don’t necessarily have to move off the grid and stop using the internet entirely to do that. We’re talking about internet safety … that’s after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How do you post safely? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back with JoseMonkey. He’s the TikTok creator who finds people, but only if they want to be found. If you don’t want to be found? He’s going to walk us through some of the most common mistakes that people make when posting photos or videos of themselves online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One mistake that is really easy to rectify is really to just review what you’re posting before you post it. Many people really don’t, they record something and they just press send, whatever the button says in the app.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know, if they’re recording those things and not really reviewing them, they may not even realize that there was like some big thing that they forgot that they didn’t want to include. And sometimes fixing that is so easy. Most of the social media apps, even if you record a video in app, they give you editing tools to trim and, you know, edit or, or put a sticker, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So like, even if you recorded a video and you realize after the fact, once you review it, that, oh no, there was a street sign right behind me that tells everybody where I was. You can either trim that piece out, sometimes you can put a sticker over it in the app and you know, those can be good ways to obscure the information or, you know, if there’s time you might be able to just rerecord it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But if you never reviewed it, you wouldn’t even have a chance to figure that out and it might be out there before you even realize what you know, what information you revealed. So I’d say that’s a really big one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I feel like there are very obvious ways to find people. Like I see so many videos of people posting their new apartment tours or posting their walk from their home, from the front door of their home all the way to like, walking their kids to school, you know, and like kind of showing that whole walk. And that’s pretty obvious, like, that is a safety risk. But what are the more, I guess, subtle tells that people should be more aware of?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>JoseMonkey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The more you move the camera, the more information you’re going to show. So I think people don’t realize sometimes, it’s definitely true that like if you’re out for a walk somewhere, people can see everything around you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sometimes people record videos in their car, even in moving cars, which I don’t really recommend because it’s not particularly safe. But I think people underestimate how much you can see through the windows of your car. I think they think that, like, they’re in their car, it’s kinda like being in their house and, you know, nobody’s gonna see anything. But that is not always the case. Sometimes you can see quite a lot through the rear windshield, through the windows, sometimes even in the mirrors. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another thing I would say about cars is that sometimes people really don’t think about the fact that most of us have a GPS in our car that tells you where you are at any given time. And if you just happen to be recording in your car and you just are looking around and you show people your GPS, well you just told everybody where you are. So I think that it is good to consider each individual video, or photo or whatever you’re creating.But it’s also important to consider the aggregate. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it may be that you only revealed one little piece of information in your video that tells people something, but you may not remember that like three years ago, you posted something that’s still there on your account that revealed some other bit of information. Right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another thing that I would say is your digital footprint is really bigger than one account or one platform. Chances are you have lots of different accounts and now it’s like, okay, well now I have this whole, you know, just wealth of data about you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So if, two years ago, you tweeted something and it kind of gave people a vague idea of what city you lived in. And then over on Instagram you posted something else that shows your face, right? And so now people they know what city you live in, they know what you look like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then maybe on some other social media site, maybe you use your real name, right? Like, maybe your LinkedIn is connected there and now that says like your full name and where you work. So now people have like, you know, all these bits and pieces of information about you, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that it’s really worth everyone’s time to consider like, how much of my information do I want out there? And if you feel like, you know, well, I’m not really at risk there, well then, you know, you can roll the dice and see what happens.But people’s information ends up getting leaked even when they’re being relatively good about it. So some people are just like, well, you know, why should I bother? But you don’t necessarily need to make it easier for people. Right? Just because it’s already possible that they might get your information some other way.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I would say there’s never a better time to start, you know, policing your own internet hygiene than when you realize you made a mistake. Practicing it is really the best thing you can do because it becomes easier when you’re in the habit of reviewing the video, you’re in the habit of saying like, oh wait, what was in shot when I took, that photo? It becomes a bit second nature, I think.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Digital hygiene involves more than just what you post. Your social accounts might be private, or, you might not use social media at all. But you probably still use the internet—for online shopping, or job applications, or just logging into your banking app. All of that involves a feast of personal data which might land in the wrong hands. So how do you protect it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is a threat model? \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Eva Galperin is the director of cybersecurity at the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a nonprofit organization that advocates for digital privacy and free speech. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So trying to protect everything from everybody all the time is, uh, is overwhelming and confusing, and honestly, you don’t need to do it. The only way to protect everything from everybody all the time is to go live as a hermit, on a mountain and fling all of your devices into the sea, uh, which is presumably located near this mountain.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t panic though, Eva’s going to explain why you don’t need to do all that just to stay safe. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Threat modeling is, uh, a way of thinking about. Uh, what you wanna protect, who you want to protect it from, uh, in such a way that leads you to the appropriate mitigation so that you do the stuff that protects the things that are important in cases that are likely to happen instead of spending all of your time just becoming a hermit and fleeing your devices into the ocean.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Threat modeling is important, because everyone has different security needs. It involves asking yourself a series of questions: what you want to protect? who you want to protect it from? How do you want to protect it? how bad will the consequences be if you fail? And how far are you willing to go to protect it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, I have a very precious American Girl doll that I’ve had since I was a kid—that’s what I want to protect. Who do I want to protect it from? My rambunctious family members who are a bit too young to play with it. How bad are the consequences if I fail? Well, my doll’s hair will probably never be the same. How much trouble am I willing to go through to prevent that? I’m not going to go as far as locking the doll away in some museum grade case—keeping it on a shelf that the kids can’t reach until they’re older will probably be enough. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s threat modeling, but the cherished childhood toy is your personal information. Who you want to protect it from, and how you need to protect it, depends on your situation. And threat modeling looks different for everyone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For example, abortion is now illegal in 13 states. Let’s look at the needs of those involved in abortion access—a group that will want to protect themselves and patients from government surveillance. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Someone who volunteers to drive patients to and from their abortions might use a VPN and a secondary, anonymous social account for their volunteer work. They may use an encrypted messaging app like Signal to communicate with patients. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Presumably you are not interested in having some sort of third party get their hands on those messages. A lot of the time people will tell you, you know, our messages are encrypted. Encryption is a term that could mean a lot of different things. And sometimes what it means is that the message is encrypted in transit, meaning that like, a third party, like the telco, can’t read it. And sometimes it is end-to-end encrypted, meaning that even the platform that you are on is unable to read your messages. And this is really important because if governments and law enforcement wanna get their hands on your messages, what they do is they show up with like, a warrant or a subpoena to the telco or to the company.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so if the telco or the company doesn’t have that information, then they need to show up to you in order to get that information, or they need to show up to the person who is on the other end of that conversation, and that gives you the ability to go lawyer up and potentially fight this subpoena and to know when your information is being handed out, which is a thing that you would not, uh, necessarily know otherwise. So what you should be looking for in your messaging service is end-to-end encryption. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anyone involved in abortion access may also disable location services or turn off their phone when they’re around reproductive healthcare clinics. And why does that matter? Well … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So there is an entire industry of people who run around building up sort of profiles of people based on who they are and where they’re going, and what websites they look at, and what apps they download and where they are located, what their preferences are, what they buy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And what they do is they gather up all of this information. Uh, sometimes they, uh, gather it from many different sources and then they aggregate it in order to make an even more detailed and clear picture about who you are. And then they turn around and they sell this information usually to advertisers, or to people who are interested in sort of targeting certain kinds of groups with advertising but also to governments and law enforcements and even to individuals. You can sign up for, uh, all kinds of data broker services. They market themselves as people finder sites and you can find out a lot about people simply by subscribing to one of those and entering the information that you want about somebody into one of those. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A journalist covering abortion, on the other hand, will have a different threat model, especially when it comes to protecting their sources and themselves.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Some of the other things that you might want to do as a journalist is you might wanna think about the way in which you communicate with your sources, especially if your sources prefer to remain anonymous. You wanna make sure that you can protect them. So you might wanna communicate with them through Signal, for example, instead of over WhatsApp or over SMS or carrier pigeon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You may also wanna think about anti-harassment. One of the big problems that journalists face, especially female journalists and journalists from marginalized groups and communities, is they disproportionately face harassment for their work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you might wanna think about just doing a full review of what it is possible to find out about you online through like, a simple search engine search. And if you find stuff that you think is, may potentially be used against you by harassers, you can take that stuff down. You can lock it up. You can make those posts private, If it is on a platform that has, uh, you know, the ability to make private posts, um. Or if somebody else is hosting it, this is actually one of the most common sources of, uh, sort of data leaks about our private lives. It’s not, uh, our posting stuff about where we are and what we’re doing, but our friends posting stuff and often they will. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It would also behoove journalists to talk to their friends and family and their colleagues about how they talk about each other in public spaces. And I don’t mean like at the cafe, I mean like in digital public spaces where, where everything can be seen, where you just make an agreement that you’re not going to post stuff about each other, uh, without permission. So if you’re gonna post a photo that your friend is in, you just ask your friend in advance.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And sometimes the threat isn’t anonymous trolls, the government, or friends from afar. It could be the people you live with.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Threat modeling for domestic abuse situations is actually incredibly hard. Uh, one of the reasons for that is because you are dealing with a person who has physical access to your stuff, who may be able to compel you to hand over your passwords to your various devices, who knows you and your friends and where you are likely to go.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s very difficult to come up with a way to fool someone with whom you have a very close romantic connection because they could, you know, they could call up your friends and family and tell them, I’m just really concerned about my partner and their wellbeing, so if you could just tell me where they are. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s one of the things that I see the most often and so when I talk to survivors of domestic abuse who are looking for a way to leave their abuser, the very first thing that I do is I try to help them just come up with like one account or one device, or one platform where they know their communications are safe.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, threat modeling looks different for everyone. If you’re not a journalist, or an activist, or celebrity, or influencer, or anyone else in a public-facing, highly scrutinized career, what’s the threat? For most people, it’s the scammers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of the big problems that we have right now is that we are in a golden age of grift. This is, if you exist in the digital world at all, if you have a phone, if you have an email address, if you have ways of getting messages sent to you, then you’re constantly getting messages from scammers and from criminals, and often they’re, they’re after different things. In the long term what they’re after is usually money, sometimes. In the short term what they’re after is access to your accounts, or access to other people who trust you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One common method is known as ransomware, which is a type of malware, an umbrella term for malicious software. Bad actors trick you into downloading software that locks up your device and holds it hostage until you pay a ransom. Do they unlock your device once you pay? Not always. Sometimes, adversaries use malware to spy on you, control your devices, and steal your information.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A more common threat is known as phishing. That’s phishing with a PH. Sometimes, it arrives in your inbox with the same logo and name as your bank, inviting you to log in. But if you look closer, the email address is slightly off. Or it could look like someone claiming to be your boss, instructing you to log into your work account as soon as possible. They even impersonate family members and partners. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Basically, phishing scams pretend to be someone you trust, and they lure you to click on a link, or log into their fake site, in order to obtain your username and password. Sometimes, clicking on a phishing attack link also installs malware, so it’s a real double whammy of security hell.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Some of the stuff to look for as a sort of indicator of a scam is a sense of urgency. Something is on fire, an emergency is happening, or like you could get rich if you click here in the next like five minutes. And that sense of urgency is aimed at overriding your common sense. And a lot of us feel very smart because, you know, every day we get targeted with like six of these things and we don’t fall for it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what’s really important to understand is that all the scammer needs is for you to have one bad day. If they come at you half a dozen times a day, eventually you’re gonna be tired, you’re gonna be cranky. Something’s gonna look plausible to you. And even the smartest person, even the most, you know, technically adept and aware person can get scammed and can end up sort of the, the victim of one of these grifters.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have to stay humble. We need to maintain eternal vigilance and also we need to not blame the people who fall for these things. I think that there’s a lot of like, well, you’re, you’re just too dumb. You didn’t see it. I wouldn’t have clicked on that. And I think that kind of victim blaming really is counterproductive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, so we’ve covered threat modeling. Luckily, there are precautions you can take that might give you a few extra layers of protection in case you do fall for one of these scams. They’re also just good habits for everyone. What do they look like in practice?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Let’s open one last tab.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Digital hygiene checklist. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well the good news is that there’s some just basic like wash-your-hands, data privacy hygiene that everyone can engage in that will make things safer for them from most of the kinds of threats that most people face every day,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> First on the checklist: Passwords \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Secure your accounts. In order to secure your accounts, you wanna make sure that all of your passwords are different from one another, and that they are long.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because a long password is what makes a password harder to crack. But then you are left with the question of how are you going to remember all of these very long, strong passwords that are different from one another? And for that, you use a password manager. So I recommend that everybody install a password manager on their devices. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Your password manager will be unlocked with a single password. That single password, again, should be long and strong and easy for you to memorize. In order to make it easier for you to memorize, I usually recommend a pass phrase, like five or six words chosen at random, because that’s easier to remember than just like 40 or 50 random numbers and letters. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are a couple of things that you should think about. The most important one is to go to your nearest friendly search engine and do a search on the name of the passport manager and security incident. So you wanna go look to see whether or not it has a history of being broken into, a history of being untrustworthy. If it has a history of being untrustworthy, don’t touch it. If you don’t find a bunch of security incidents, it’s probably okay or good enough. The best password manager is the one that you actually use. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then there’s a nifty little shield called two-factor authentication. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So two-factor authentication just means that in order to get into this account, you now need two things instead of one thing. You need the password and you need an authentication code, which is sent to you in some fashion. The most common way in which we receive authentication codes is usually over SMS.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So you are sent a text message. That text message goes to your phone. This is the least secure way of securing an account. And the reason for this is SMS messages are not encrypted, which means that it is possible to intercept them, for example, at the Telco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is much easier for other people to get their hands on these messages and to use them to log into your account. Uh, it is still better than nothing in most cases. Having 2FA over SMS is in most cases probably better than having no 2FA at all. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the better way in which to have your second factor of authentication work is through an authenticator app. So you install an app on your device, and what it does is you sync it to your account and when you are logging in you go to the app and it will give you the code that you enter in addition to your password. This is safer because it is not sending that data over SMS. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For extra security, some people might opt for a physical key, which is almost like a little keychain-sized flash drive you stick into your devices to log in. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Now this is both good and bad, if you lose your physical key, you are permanently locked out of your device. So the bad news is it works. This also means that if you break your physical key and you don’t have like, a backup key somewhere, you can end up locked out of your account.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And most importantly, if you are in a situation in which you need to secure your account against somebody who has access to your stuff, who has physical access to you, who might get their hands on your key chain, where you have put all of your physical keys, then this is especially unsafe. So this is not a solution that I recommend, uh, to survivors of domestic abuse, whose abusers still have physical access to them or the spaces they’re in or to their stuff.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then, there’s dodging the data brokers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The other thing that you might wanna do is, with your web browser, you might want to install Privacy Badger, which is a web extension which eats tracking cookies. One of the ways in which data brokers figure out where you’re going from one website to another and what you are doing is through the use of cookies. And if you have a web extension that makes it impossible for those cookies to follow you across the web, that makes things more difficult. So those are the basic things that are probably very good for everyone to do and that will take care of most of your problems most of the time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">See, that’s not so bad, is it? You don’t need the shiniest, most expensive, top of the line cybersecurity tools just to stay safe online. Most of the time, a little digital hand washing goes a long way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The truth here is that trying to protect everything from everybody all the time is a good way to drive yourself insane. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Some people are almost like either overwhelmed by the idea of having to lock it all down, or some people are almost like resigned to a world without privacy because that’s just the new normal. What would you say to them? Why does privacy still matter?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eva Galperin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well to begin with, you don’t have to lock it all down. You really don’t. You can still exist in the world. The whole idea behind privacy is not that, again, you should be a hermit who lives on a mountain with no devices. The idea behind securing your digital existence and understanding your footprint on the internet is to enable you to do the things that you want to do and that are important to you in the safest possible way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, before you post yourself, and especially before posting other people, consider practicing a little digital hygiene—at least a spritz of some digital hand sanitizer. As you can hear from my voice today, it’s flu season, after all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We also teamed up with KQED’s audience news team on a digital guide that breaks down everything we talked about today in a convenient, shareable format. You can find that guide, and a bunch of other great explainers, at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/explainers\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED.org/explainers\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And check the show notes for more privacy and security resources. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And one more quick thing before we go, we’re working on a Valentine’s Day episode and we want to hear from you! When do you think is the right time, if ever, to share your location with a significant other? Do you have a hot take on this, or a juicy story? Send us a voice note at closealltabs@kqed.org.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, now let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Hambrick. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Chris Egusa is our senior editor, and also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends, too. Or even your enemies! Or… frenemies? And if you \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate dot KQED dot org slash podcasts! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also, we want to hear from you! Email us CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. Follow us on instagram at “close all tabs pod.” Or TikTok at “close all tabs.” Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "googles-once-grand-vision-for-downtown-west-in-san-jose-still-on-hold-apparently",
"title": "Google’s Once Grand Vision for Downtown West in San José Still on Hold (Apparently)",
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"headTitle": "Google’s Once Grand Vision for Downtown West in San José Still on Hold (Apparently) | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>Nearly a decade has passed since \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-jose\">San José\u003c/a> agreed to sell more than $110 million worth of land to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/google\">Google\u003c/a>, to support the tech giant’s plans to transform a flagging industrial area of downtown into a vibrant village filled with gleaming new offices, apartments, hotels, shops and parks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To date, almost none of the grand development plans — which city and business leaders praised at the time as a once-in-a-generation economic opportunity for the self-proclaimed capital of Silicon Valley — have come to fruition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Google has instead laid a thick coat of varnish, both literal and metaphorical, over portions of roughly 80 acres near Diridon Station and the SAP Center, a swath of land it dubbed Downtown West. But the Mountain View-based company has shared scant details publicly about its current timeline or strategy for the collection of land and buildings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The void has left those living, working or investing here in limbo — without a clear idea of whether a full-blown mixed-use neighborhood will materialize and unable to bank on it when making personal and business decisions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It seems, quite frankly, pretty long ago where we were promised all of this,” said Alan “Gumby” Marques, the past board president and interim CEO of the San José Downtown Association at the time of an interview in December. “As much as I would like to see that happen, I’ve kind of moved on. I don’t have any dependency on Google coming in and building the campus that they had planned.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Google declined a phone interview request from KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001241\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001241\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Google’s Bay View campus in Mountain View on June 16, 2022. \u003ccite>(Zhang Yi/VCG via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In emailed comments, a Google spokesperson did not clearly answer questions about whether it still intends to move forward with the development plans in San José, signaling that it is still evaluating the company’s real estate needs as a whole.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The company said it has already brought new social activities and gathering spaces to the long-overlooked area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Large endeavors like Downtown West can take multiple decades to complete, and can ebb and flow over the years, Google spokesperson Ryan Lamont said, adding that the company still communicates with developers to evaluate potential future work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some business advocates and residents say they still believe Google intends to eventually build out the area, noting the company hasn’t sold any of the hundreds of millions of dollars worth of land it purchased from the city and private owners.[aside postID=news_12066245 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-BART-SILICON-VALLEY-TOUR-MD-03-KQED.jpg']“I think at some point in time in history, they plan on following through,” said Walter Wilson, a co-founder of the Minority Business Consortium and longtime civil rights advocate. His organization was part of a now-inactive group that provided input to Google about its plans for the area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was really going. And then all of a sudden it just didn’t,” Wilson said of the development momentum. “I’ve talked to some people at Google, and they say that this is a process that they’re still committed to. It’s not a matter of if, but when.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What’s clear to anyone familiar with the area is that the project has been pushed far beyond its original timeline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The San José City Council agreed to sell Google nearly a dozen acres of land in 2018, and the company later indicated some of the first buildings could be completed as soon as 2023 or 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Colorful renderings presented by the company featured an “urban destination” touting more than 7 million square feet of office space, and at least 4,000 new homes in an area in desperate need of housing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It also envisioned 500,000 square feet of mixed uses, such as retail shops, cultural and art spaces and hotels, along with 15 acres of parks and plazas. Between 2022 and 2024, the company demolished older structures, including the remnants of an old hardware store and a longtime \u003ca href=\"https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/08/01/farewell-to-pattys-inn-a-san-jose-bar-with-character/\">neighborhood bar called Patty’s Inn\u003c/a> that slung beer and other beverages for nearly 90 years, to make way for what was to come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But with the lack of any new construction following those demolition efforts, some people have lost hope for a drastically reshaped neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069845\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069845\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-01-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-01-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A sign for proposed development in front of San José Diridon Station in San José on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“To be honest, I’m not counting on it, you know?” said Jay Meduri, the owner of Poor House Bistro, a Cajun- and Italian-inspired restaurant that operated for years on the corner of Barack Obama Boulevard and San Fernando Street, before he sold the site to Google.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The company helped him relocate the restaurant to a new location in Little Italy in 2022, where he formally reopened in 2023 after operating temporarily out of food trucks and cloud kitchens. He said most of the people he used to communicate with at Google have moved on or been laid off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meduri said he has no hard feelings toward Google, but he does get a bit wistful sometimes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I have to say it’s bittersweet when I drive by there every day, and I used to see where we were located and now that’s completely dug out and getting leveled out. And then Patty’s Inn, which was across the street and kind of a historic staple to San José — now they have containers,” he said.[aside postID=news_12068653 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/IMG_6335.jpg']“Who knows when Google Downtown West is going to be completed. But hopefully it’s while I’m still operating the restaurant and can enjoy all these visions that I saw of making this Downtown West a hopping spot, right? So, it remains to be seen when that’s gonna happen or if it happens,” Meduri said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite the lack of action, project supporters, including current and former city officials and business boosters, say they’re confident Google is still committed to the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Congressman Sam Liccardo, who spearheaded San José’s deals with Google when he was mayor from 2015 through 2022, said the city has already gained “enormous benefit” from the tech giant’s presence and its land-buying spree, which \u003ca href=\"https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/09/16/google-village-downtown-san-jose-property-value-jump-real-estate-tech/\">some estimates\u003c/a> have pegged at several hundred million dollars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The properties the company bought have significantly increased in assessed value, boosting the tax base for the city and county. Google also donated $12.5 million to nonprofits and community-serving organizations and programs, out of a plan to eventually pour $200 million into such efforts, and is bringing in new tenants to give life to the area, Liccardo said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A whole host of things [are] bringing people into a part of downtown where a few years ago, you could shoot a cannon down the street and not hit anybody,” Liccardo said. “You’re now starting to see activity and that will make, obviously, that part of the downtown much more attractive for future office tenants.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"mceTemp\">\u003c/div>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069848\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069848\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-04-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-04-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The former Kearny Pattern Works and Foundry in San José on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Google, through a subcontractor, has boosted what it calls the Creekside area with the recent opening of a beer garden run by local favorite Hapa’s Brewing Company. It has also repurposed a parking lot where Patty’s Inn once stood for events centered around food trucks, including art, fitness, cultural gatherings and hockey watch parties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Preservation Action Council of San José, which pushes for historic preservation, education and appreciation in the city, is opening a rummage and reuse hub soon in a former warehouse, and has plans for a racket sport facility where Poor House Bistro once stood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Liccardo said it shouldn’t come as a surprise that Google is not putting shovels in the ground for new offices in the wake of the COVID-19 pandemic, which upended work culture and contributed to massive office space vacancies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the end of the third quarter of 2025, national vacancy rates were nearly 19%, according to\u003ca href=\"https://www.cbre.com/insights/figures/silicon-valley-office-snapshot-q3-2025\"> commercial real estate firm CBRE\u003c/a>. While the Silicon Valley office market was about 17%, in San José’s downtown core, it was 32%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069846\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069846\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-02-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-02-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-02-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Templo La Hermosa is boarded up and behind a chain link fence in San José on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Google has tried to do something and ran headfirst into a global pandemic. And like virtually every other entity that planned to build offices or office expansion, they put the brakes on their plan. And I expect those brakes will be in place for several years,” Liccardo said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Liccardo said he thinks Google is “going to act like any landowner would at a time of great economic uncertainty,” and may simply sit on the land until it’s clear they need more office space. “And that’s certainly not now, and it’s probably not going to be next year either,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While the potential expansion of the artificial intelligence-driven economy could push Google’s original development plans into reality, it’s also possible the company may need to “reimagine” uses for the land to skew more toward housing, Liccardo said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bert Weaver, a board member of the Delmas Park Neighborhood Association, representing residents whose homes abut Google’s planned village, said he thinks the company has been a good neighbor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said the company listened to input from residents and local organizations, maintains and secures the parking lots and buildings it owns, and puts on events at the Creekside area that are “very well attended.” Even if the development has stalled for now, Weaver said he’s “cautiously optimistic” the plans will eventually shape up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069857\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069857\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-16-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-16-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-16-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-16-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A sign for Creekside San José in front of the lot where the Poor House stood in San José on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I mean, I hear occasional comments from neighbors that ‘No, Google is never going to come here,’ and all that. But I really don’t feel that way. And a number of my friends, a number of leaders of our group, feel the same way, that one day they will. As business improves, things will begin to happen,” Weaver said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said the neighborhood association leaders had a meeting with a Google representative in October, where no timelines were shared, but the company “sort of tried to assuage our fears and remind us that the bad rumors are not necessarily true, but, you know, they’re still there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At Hannah Coffee, a cafe across from SAP Center, customers are mostly neighborhood residents and people who work nearby at local businesses or for the San José Sharks, according to Andrew Harms, a manager at the shop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Harms said that since he moved to the area about three years ago, he has heard a lot about the Google development.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069859\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069859\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-19-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-19-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-19-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-19-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A sign on a fence commemorating the Stephen’s Meat Products sign in San José on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The privatization of any amount of space here is always, I think, a concerning thing to people, whether or not it affects their day-to-day lives, because it’ll change the landscape of the city forever, potentially,” Harms said. When the project was moving through the city approval process years ago, many residents and community organizations expressed concerns about gentrification and whether the development would benefit some while hurting others. But more jobs, housing, liveliness and gathering spaces would be a net benefit for the area, he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, the lack of substantial progress on the plans has been noticeable, he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s strange to hand the golden keys, so to speak, to Google and have them do basically nothing with the space,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jen Baker, San José’s director of economic development, who came to the city last summer from the Pacific Northwest, sees the area with fresh eyes. She expressed optimism about the potential of not only Downtown West, but the broader 250-acre Diridon Station area, where the city has envisioned millions more square feet of office space and up to 12,000 homes, including Google’s original plans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069860\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069860\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-21-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-21-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-21-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-21-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">One of three Victorian-era homes on W. Julian Street in San José now owned by Google that could eventually be relocated as part of the company’s development plans for the area on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“It’s really a unique and amazing site and space. How many West Coast cities have potentially developable acreage that is in downtown or downtown adjacent to really accomplish a major vision?” Baker said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The pandemic’s effects on the economy and office markets have meant that projects didn’t move at the pace many were hoping for, Baker said, but she sees “an amazing canvas of opportunity” there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I realize that the timeline for people is not what was anticipated,” Baker said, “but I’m very bullish that something amazing will be realized.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Google’s Once Grand Vision for Downtown West in San José Still on Hold (Apparently) | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Nearly a decade has passed since \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-jose\">San José\u003c/a> agreed to sell more than $110 million worth of land to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/google\">Google\u003c/a>, to support the tech giant’s plans to transform a flagging industrial area of downtown into a vibrant village filled with gleaming new offices, apartments, hotels, shops and parks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To date, almost none of the grand development plans — which city and business leaders praised at the time as a once-in-a-generation economic opportunity for the self-proclaimed capital of Silicon Valley — have come to fruition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Google has instead laid a thick coat of varnish, both literal and metaphorical, over portions of roughly 80 acres near Diridon Station and the SAP Center, a swath of land it dubbed Downtown West. But the Mountain View-based company has shared scant details publicly about its current timeline or strategy for the collection of land and buildings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The void has left those living, working or investing here in limbo — without a clear idea of whether a full-blown mixed-use neighborhood will materialize and unable to bank on it when making personal and business decisions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It seems, quite frankly, pretty long ago where we were promised all of this,” said Alan “Gumby” Marques, the past board president and interim CEO of the San José Downtown Association at the time of an interview in December. “As much as I would like to see that happen, I’ve kind of moved on. I don’t have any dependency on Google coming in and building the campus that they had planned.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Google declined a phone interview request from KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001241\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001241\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GETTYIMAGES-1411232503-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Google’s Bay View campus in Mountain View on June 16, 2022. \u003ccite>(Zhang Yi/VCG via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In emailed comments, a Google spokesperson did not clearly answer questions about whether it still intends to move forward with the development plans in San José, signaling that it is still evaluating the company’s real estate needs as a whole.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The company said it has already brought new social activities and gathering spaces to the long-overlooked area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Large endeavors like Downtown West can take multiple decades to complete, and can ebb and flow over the years, Google spokesperson Ryan Lamont said, adding that the company still communicates with developers to evaluate potential future work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some business advocates and residents say they still believe Google intends to eventually build out the area, noting the company hasn’t sold any of the hundreds of millions of dollars worth of land it purchased from the city and private owners.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“I think at some point in time in history, they plan on following through,” said Walter Wilson, a co-founder of the Minority Business Consortium and longtime civil rights advocate. His organization was part of a now-inactive group that provided input to Google about its plans for the area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was really going. And then all of a sudden it just didn’t,” Wilson said of the development momentum. “I’ve talked to some people at Google, and they say that this is a process that they’re still committed to. It’s not a matter of if, but when.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What’s clear to anyone familiar with the area is that the project has been pushed far beyond its original timeline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The San José City Council agreed to sell Google nearly a dozen acres of land in 2018, and the company later indicated some of the first buildings could be completed as soon as 2023 or 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Colorful renderings presented by the company featured an “urban destination” touting more than 7 million square feet of office space, and at least 4,000 new homes in an area in desperate need of housing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It also envisioned 500,000 square feet of mixed uses, such as retail shops, cultural and art spaces and hotels, along with 15 acres of parks and plazas. Between 2022 and 2024, the company demolished older structures, including the remnants of an old hardware store and a longtime \u003ca href=\"https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/08/01/farewell-to-pattys-inn-a-san-jose-bar-with-character/\">neighborhood bar called Patty’s Inn\u003c/a> that slung beer and other beverages for nearly 90 years, to make way for what was to come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But with the lack of any new construction following those demolition efforts, some people have lost hope for a drastically reshaped neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069845\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069845\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-01-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-01-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A sign for proposed development in front of San José Diridon Station in San José on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“To be honest, I’m not counting on it, you know?” said Jay Meduri, the owner of Poor House Bistro, a Cajun- and Italian-inspired restaurant that operated for years on the corner of Barack Obama Boulevard and San Fernando Street, before he sold the site to Google.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The company helped him relocate the restaurant to a new location in Little Italy in 2022, where he formally reopened in 2023 after operating temporarily out of food trucks and cloud kitchens. He said most of the people he used to communicate with at Google have moved on or been laid off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meduri said he has no hard feelings toward Google, but he does get a bit wistful sometimes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I have to say it’s bittersweet when I drive by there every day, and I used to see where we were located and now that’s completely dug out and getting leveled out. And then Patty’s Inn, which was across the street and kind of a historic staple to San José — now they have containers,” he said.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“Who knows when Google Downtown West is going to be completed. But hopefully it’s while I’m still operating the restaurant and can enjoy all these visions that I saw of making this Downtown West a hopping spot, right? So, it remains to be seen when that’s gonna happen or if it happens,” Meduri said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite the lack of action, project supporters, including current and former city officials and business boosters, say they’re confident Google is still committed to the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Congressman Sam Liccardo, who spearheaded San José’s deals with Google when he was mayor from 2015 through 2022, said the city has already gained “enormous benefit” from the tech giant’s presence and its land-buying spree, which \u003ca href=\"https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/09/16/google-village-downtown-san-jose-property-value-jump-real-estate-tech/\">some estimates\u003c/a> have pegged at several hundred million dollars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The properties the company bought have significantly increased in assessed value, boosting the tax base for the city and county. Google also donated $12.5 million to nonprofits and community-serving organizations and programs, out of a plan to eventually pour $200 million into such efforts, and is bringing in new tenants to give life to the area, Liccardo said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A whole host of things [are] bringing people into a part of downtown where a few years ago, you could shoot a cannon down the street and not hit anybody,” Liccardo said. “You’re now starting to see activity and that will make, obviously, that part of the downtown much more attractive for future office tenants.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"mceTemp\">\u003c/div>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069848\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069848\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-04-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-04-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The former Kearny Pattern Works and Foundry in San José on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Google, through a subcontractor, has boosted what it calls the Creekside area with the recent opening of a beer garden run by local favorite Hapa’s Brewing Company. It has also repurposed a parking lot where Patty’s Inn once stood for events centered around food trucks, including art, fitness, cultural gatherings and hockey watch parties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Preservation Action Council of San José, which pushes for historic preservation, education and appreciation in the city, is opening a rummage and reuse hub soon in a former warehouse, and has plans for a racket sport facility where Poor House Bistro once stood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Liccardo said it shouldn’t come as a surprise that Google is not putting shovels in the ground for new offices in the wake of the COVID-19 pandemic, which upended work culture and contributed to massive office space vacancies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the end of the third quarter of 2025, national vacancy rates were nearly 19%, according to\u003ca href=\"https://www.cbre.com/insights/figures/silicon-valley-office-snapshot-q3-2025\"> commercial real estate firm CBRE\u003c/a>. While the Silicon Valley office market was about 17%, in San José’s downtown core, it was 32%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069846\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069846\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-02-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-02-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-02-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Templo La Hermosa is boarded up and behind a chain link fence in San José on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Google has tried to do something and ran headfirst into a global pandemic. And like virtually every other entity that planned to build offices or office expansion, they put the brakes on their plan. And I expect those brakes will be in place for several years,” Liccardo said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Liccardo said he thinks Google is “going to act like any landowner would at a time of great economic uncertainty,” and may simply sit on the land until it’s clear they need more office space. “And that’s certainly not now, and it’s probably not going to be next year either,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While the potential expansion of the artificial intelligence-driven economy could push Google’s original development plans into reality, it’s also possible the company may need to “reimagine” uses for the land to skew more toward housing, Liccardo said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bert Weaver, a board member of the Delmas Park Neighborhood Association, representing residents whose homes abut Google’s planned village, said he thinks the company has been a good neighbor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said the company listened to input from residents and local organizations, maintains and secures the parking lots and buildings it owns, and puts on events at the Creekside area that are “very well attended.” Even if the development has stalled for now, Weaver said he’s “cautiously optimistic” the plans will eventually shape up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069857\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069857\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-16-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-16-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-16-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-16-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A sign for Creekside San José in front of the lot where the Poor House stood in San José on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I mean, I hear occasional comments from neighbors that ‘No, Google is never going to come here,’ and all that. But I really don’t feel that way. And a number of my friends, a number of leaders of our group, feel the same way, that one day they will. As business improves, things will begin to happen,” Weaver said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said the neighborhood association leaders had a meeting with a Google representative in October, where no timelines were shared, but the company “sort of tried to assuage our fears and remind us that the bad rumors are not necessarily true, but, you know, they’re still there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At Hannah Coffee, a cafe across from SAP Center, customers are mostly neighborhood residents and people who work nearby at local businesses or for the San José Sharks, according to Andrew Harms, a manager at the shop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Harms said that since he moved to the area about three years ago, he has heard a lot about the Google development.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069859\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069859\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-19-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-19-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-19-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-19-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A sign on a fence commemorating the Stephen’s Meat Products sign in San José on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The privatization of any amount of space here is always, I think, a concerning thing to people, whether or not it affects their day-to-day lives, because it’ll change the landscape of the city forever, potentially,” Harms said. When the project was moving through the city approval process years ago, many residents and community organizations expressed concerns about gentrification and whether the development would benefit some while hurting others. But more jobs, housing, liveliness and gathering spaces would be a net benefit for the area, he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, the lack of substantial progress on the plans has been noticeable, he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s strange to hand the golden keys, so to speak, to Google and have them do basically nothing with the space,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jen Baker, San José’s director of economic development, who came to the city last summer from the Pacific Northwest, sees the area with fresh eyes. She expressed optimism about the potential of not only Downtown West, but the broader 250-acre Diridon Station area, where the city has envisioned millions more square feet of office space and up to 12,000 homes, including Google’s original plans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069860\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12069860\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-21-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-21-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-21-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/251208-DOWNTOWN-WEST-MD-21-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">One of three Victorian-era homes on W. Julian Street in San José now owned by Google that could eventually be relocated as part of the company’s development plans for the area on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“It’s really a unique and amazing site and space. How many West Coast cities have potentially developable acreage that is in downtown or downtown adjacent to really accomplish a major vision?” Baker said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The pandemic’s effects on the economy and office markets have meant that projects didn’t move at the pace many were hoping for, Baker said, but she sees “an amazing canvas of opportunity” there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I realize that the timeline for people is not what was anticipated,” Baker said, “but I’m very bullish that something amazing will be realized.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>Santa Cruz has terminated its contract with Flock Safety, the automated license plate reader operator, over data privacy concerns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Santa Cruz City Council voted 6-1 on Tuesday to terminate the city’s contract with Flock, citing reports that the city’s data has been accessed by out-of-state agencies, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12066989/california-cities-double-down-on-license-plate-readers-as-federal-surveillance-grows?utm_source=chatgpt.com\">at a time\u003c/a> when the Trump administration is pursuing an increasingly aggressive immigration enforcement agenda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“For us, the threat to our civil liberties was greater than any benefit we could get from the flawed product,” said Mayor Fred Keeley, who voted against the Flock contract in 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re not interested, as they continue to develop their product, to be an experiment for a system which appears to have enormously big holes in it that they discover every day and try to patch to fix,” he said, adding he doesn’t fault the Santa Cruz Police Department.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5003726529\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003cbr>\n \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Last November, Santa Cruz police\u003ca href=\"https://www.santacruzsentinel.com/2025/11/18/santa-cruz-pauses-participation-in-flocks-statewide-sharing-portal/\"> Chief Bernie Escalante confirmed\u003c/a> the city’s Flock data had been accessed by out-of-state agencies, prompting city officials to \u003ca href=\"https://lookout.co/city-of-santa-cruz-pauses-statewide-license-plate-data-sharing-citing-flock-safetys-violation-of-california-law/story\">temporarily limit\u003c/a> outside agencies’ access to the city’s license plate reader data and to review its agreement with Flock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“California for 10 years has prohibited the sharing of license plate data out of state. Ten years!” said Peter Gelblum, chair of the ACLU’s Santa Cruz County Chapter, told KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12066350\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1760px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12066350\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/flock-camera-6936dca8e38fe.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1760\" height=\"1084\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/flock-camera-6936dca8e38fe.jpg 1760w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/flock-camera-6936dca8e38fe-160x99.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/flock-camera-6936dca8e38fe-1536x946.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1760px) 100vw, 1760px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A Flock camera at Fashion Valley Mall cast in silhouette on Oct. 27, 2025. \u003ccite>(Scott Rodd/KPBS)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>According to Gelblum and other civil liberties advocates, Santa Cruz is the first city in California to end its Flock contract. He credited the Trump administration’s immigration policies for dialing up the sense of urgency in the sanctuary city, as well as data compiled by the recently formed grassroots group \u003ca href=\"https://www.gettheflockout.org\">Get the Flock Out\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They laid out a case that included the finding that, between June and October 2025, state agencies\u003ca href=\"https://lookout.co/anti-flock-group-finds-that-state-agencies-accessed-scpd-camera-data-thousands-of-times-on-feds-behalf-since-mid-2024/story\"> accessed Santa Cruz camera data roughly 4,000 times\u003c/a> on behalf of federal law enforcement, including U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, or ICE, in violation of California’s SB 34.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Under SB 34, California law enforcement agencies are required to adopt detailed usage and privacy policies governing license plate reader data, restrict access to authorized purposes, and regularly audit searches to prevent misuse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And yet, the typical standard Flock contract, which the agencies in Santa Cruz County all signed, enables nationwide sharing, and nationwide sharing was going on the entire time,” Gelblum said.[aside postID=news_12066989 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251210-License-Plate-Readers-01-KQED.jpg']A Flock spokesman told KQED the company has always been willing to comply with requests from law enforcement agencies to shut down outside access to data, to ensure compliance with state and local laws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Trevor Chandler, director of public affairs for Flock, said the company is committed to honoring the values of every community, so that their civil liberty concerns “don’t have to come at the expense of community safety. All of those tools to customize sharing … can be customized at any moment, for any reason, by any city.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Though precise tallies differ, civil liberties advocates say roughly 30 municipalities nationwide have recently canceled their contracts with Flock. But Chandler said Flock doesn’t feel threatened by the increased scrutiny.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We saw Oakland put their program on pause, then \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12066989/california-cities-double-down-on-license-plate-readers-as-federal-surveillance-grows\">went on to reauthorize it\u003c/a>. We saw San Diego put their program on pause, customized safety features, then reauthorized it. So if the conversation with Santa Cruz comes back, we’re happy to have that conversation,” Chandler said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Santa Cruz first signed its contract with Flock in 2024, and it was scheduled to expire on March 27. Tuesday’s vote allows the city to terminate the agreement with 30 days’ notice, or Feb. 12 at the earliest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Santa Cruz got it right,” Sarah Hamid, director of strategic campaigns with the Electronic Frontier Foundation, wrote KQED. “Santa Cruz joins nearly two dozen jurisdictions in 2025 that canceled or rejected Flock contracts by exercising procurement power — local democracy’s most underutilized tool. These communities recognized that Flock’s surveillance risks are difficult to adequately mitigate through policy alone, and chose instead to invest in public safety approaches that don’t require mass surveillance infrastructure.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Santa Cruz has terminated its contract with Flock Safety, the automated license plate reader operator, over data privacy concerns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Santa Cruz City Council voted 6-1 on Tuesday to terminate the city’s contract with Flock, citing reports that the city’s data has been accessed by out-of-state agencies, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12066989/california-cities-double-down-on-license-plate-readers-as-federal-surveillance-grows?utm_source=chatgpt.com\">at a time\u003c/a> when the Trump administration is pursuing an increasingly aggressive immigration enforcement agenda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“For us, the threat to our civil liberties was greater than any benefit we could get from the flawed product,” said Mayor Fred Keeley, who voted against the Flock contract in 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re not interested, as they continue to develop their product, to be an experiment for a system which appears to have enormously big holes in it that they discover every day and try to patch to fix,” he said, adding he doesn’t fault the Santa Cruz Police Department.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5003726529\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003cbr>\n \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Last November, Santa Cruz police\u003ca href=\"https://www.santacruzsentinel.com/2025/11/18/santa-cruz-pauses-participation-in-flocks-statewide-sharing-portal/\"> Chief Bernie Escalante confirmed\u003c/a> the city’s Flock data had been accessed by out-of-state agencies, prompting city officials to \u003ca href=\"https://lookout.co/city-of-santa-cruz-pauses-statewide-license-plate-data-sharing-citing-flock-safetys-violation-of-california-law/story\">temporarily limit\u003c/a> outside agencies’ access to the city’s license plate reader data and to review its agreement with Flock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“California for 10 years has prohibited the sharing of license plate data out of state. Ten years!” said Peter Gelblum, chair of the ACLU’s Santa Cruz County Chapter, told KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12066350\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1760px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12066350\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/flock-camera-6936dca8e38fe.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1760\" height=\"1084\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/flock-camera-6936dca8e38fe.jpg 1760w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/flock-camera-6936dca8e38fe-160x99.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/flock-camera-6936dca8e38fe-1536x946.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1760px) 100vw, 1760px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A Flock camera at Fashion Valley Mall cast in silhouette on Oct. 27, 2025. \u003ccite>(Scott Rodd/KPBS)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>According to Gelblum and other civil liberties advocates, Santa Cruz is the first city in California to end its Flock contract. He credited the Trump administration’s immigration policies for dialing up the sense of urgency in the sanctuary city, as well as data compiled by the recently formed grassroots group \u003ca href=\"https://www.gettheflockout.org\">Get the Flock Out\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They laid out a case that included the finding that, between June and October 2025, state agencies\u003ca href=\"https://lookout.co/anti-flock-group-finds-that-state-agencies-accessed-scpd-camera-data-thousands-of-times-on-feds-behalf-since-mid-2024/story\"> accessed Santa Cruz camera data roughly 4,000 times\u003c/a> on behalf of federal law enforcement, including U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, or ICE, in violation of California’s SB 34.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Under SB 34, California law enforcement agencies are required to adopt detailed usage and privacy policies governing license plate reader data, restrict access to authorized purposes, and regularly audit searches to prevent misuse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And yet, the typical standard Flock contract, which the agencies in Santa Cruz County all signed, enables nationwide sharing, and nationwide sharing was going on the entire time,” Gelblum said.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>A Flock spokesman told KQED the company has always been willing to comply with requests from law enforcement agencies to shut down outside access to data, to ensure compliance with state and local laws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Trevor Chandler, director of public affairs for Flock, said the company is committed to honoring the values of every community, so that their civil liberty concerns “don’t have to come at the expense of community safety. All of those tools to customize sharing … can be customized at any moment, for any reason, by any city.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Though precise tallies differ, civil liberties advocates say roughly 30 municipalities nationwide have recently canceled their contracts with Flock. But Chandler said Flock doesn’t feel threatened by the increased scrutiny.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We saw Oakland put their program on pause, then \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12066989/california-cities-double-down-on-license-plate-readers-as-federal-surveillance-grows\">went on to reauthorize it\u003c/a>. We saw San Diego put their program on pause, customized safety features, then reauthorized it. So if the conversation with Santa Cruz comes back, we’re happy to have that conversation,” Chandler said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Santa Cruz first signed its contract with Flock in 2024, and it was scheduled to expire on March 27. Tuesday’s vote allows the city to terminate the agreement with 30 days’ notice, or Feb. 12 at the earliest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Santa Cruz got it right,” Sarah Hamid, director of strategic campaigns with the Electronic Frontier Foundation, wrote KQED. “Santa Cruz joins nearly two dozen jurisdictions in 2025 that canceled or rejected Flock contracts by exercising procurement power — local democracy’s most underutilized tool. These communities recognized that Flock’s surveillance risks are difficult to adequately mitigate through policy alone, and chose instead to invest in public safety approaches that don’t require mass surveillance infrastructure.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "are-you-allowed-to-record-ice",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officer Jonathan Ross shot and killed Renee Good in Minneapolis, it became an instant flashpoint in the ongoing escalation of federal law enforcement violence. It also put a spotlight on the U.S. government’s efforts to prevent people from documenting federal agents in public.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode, we dig into a simple but important question: do you have the right to record ICE? Criminal justice reporter C.J. Ciaramella explains how the Trump administration is working to create a chilling effect around filming law enforcement, why legal challenges are intensifying, and how courts are increasingly pushing back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5878884828\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://reason.com/people/cj-ciaramella/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">C.J. Ciaramella\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Criminal Justice Reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Reason\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://minnesotareformer.com/2026/01/07/ice-officer-fatally-shoots-driver-through-car-window-in-minneapolis/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ICE officer fatally shoots driver through car window in Minneapolis\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Max Nesterak, Madison McVan and Alyssa Chen, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Minnesota Reformer \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://reason.com/2026/01/08/you-have-the-right-to-record-ice/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Trump administration says it’s illegal to record videos of ICE. Here’s what the law says.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — C.J. Ciaramella, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Reason\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://reason.com/2025/12/22/dhs-says-recording-or-following-law-enforcement-sure-sounds-like-obstruction-of-justice/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DHS says recording or following law enforcement ‘sure sounds like obstruction of justice’\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — C.J. Ciaramella, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Reason\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11871364/recording-the-police-what-to-know-and-how-to-stay-safe-doing-it\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Recording the Police: Tips for Safety and Awareness\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Carly Severn and Mina Kim, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://prospect.org/2025/09/09/2025-09-09-dhs-claims-videotaping-ice-raids-is-violence/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DHS Claims Videotaping ICE Raids Is ‘Violence’\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Matthew Cunningham-Cook, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The American Prospect\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/2025/11/ice-detains-us-citizen-for-7-hours-after-she-photographed-agents-in-gresham.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ICE detains U.S. citizen for 7 hours after she photographed agents in Oregon\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Yesenia Amaro, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Oregonian\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/ice-immigration-protests-prosecutions-doj-arrests-591f155d50c13756842e033ea23f16d3?link_source=ta_bluesky_link&taid=6943fae5c2e22c00016e74ad&utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=bluesky\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dozens of felony cases crumble in DOJ push to punish protesters\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Michael Biesecker, Jamie Ding, Christine Fernando, Claire Rush, and Ryan J. Foley, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Associated Press \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://time.com/7344924/federal-officers-shooting-immigration-portland-minneapolis-prosecution-immunity/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What Happens When Federal Officers Use Force \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Miranda Jeyaretnam, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TIME \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/justice/2025/12/immigration-mask-ban-new-law/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">California is banning masks for federal agents. Here’s why it could lose in court\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Nigel Duara, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">CalMatters\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just a note, this episode contains references to violence and strong language. Listen with care.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from 50501_Key_Largo Instagram Account]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Border Patrol Officer: If I continue to see you following me around, I’m gonna pull you over and arrest you.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Local Observer: For what? What law am I breaking?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Border Patrol Officer: You’re impeding one of the investigations, okay?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was an interaction between a Border Patrol officer and a local observer in Key Largo, Florida, posted on Instagram on Monday morning. The officer threatened to arrest the observer for following and filming him, but didn’t say what law they were breaking.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from 50501_Key_Largo Instagram Account]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Local Observer: How am I impeding you?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Border Patrol Officer: I’m not going to argue with you.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Local Observer: Are you going to shoot me?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Border Patrol Officer: Why would I shoot you?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Local Observer: Because one of your guys, one of you federal people just shot an innocent woman and murdered her in Minneapolis.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last week, on January 7th, federal immigration and customs enforcement officers shot and killed Renee Good in Minneapolis, Minnesota. She was 37. The Trump administration has launched an extensive immigration crackdown in Minneapolis singling out the city’s large Somali community. Last week they sent 2,000 federal agents in what ICE Acting Director Todd Lyons described as the largest immigration operation ever.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In response, a lot of citizens have been protesting and following and monitoring ICE and CBP officers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is C.J. Ciaramella, a reporter for Reason magazine who covers criminal justice and civil liberties. He’s been reporting on the Trump administration’s crackdown on those who record or photograph ICE operations. Last Wednesday, Renee Good and her wife had just dropped their six-year-old son off at school when they came across a group of ICE agents. Bystander video shows that Renee’s car was stopped perpendicularly on the road.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And an ICE, uh, a pickup of federal immigration officers stopped in front of her and went up and were shouting at her to…there were some contradictory orders to both leave and get out of her car and started tugging on her car. She started backing up first and then as she was doing that, one of the immigration officers stepped in front her car and she started moving forward and pulling out to leave with the officer in front of her. And as he was stepping around her car, as it was moving towards him, he pulled out his gun and fired three shots and killed her.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are several bystander videos that captured different angles of Renee’s last moments and the gruesome aftermath. One shows an officer denying medical assistance for Renee after a bystander identified himself as a doctor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from a video recorded by eyewitness Emily Heller]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Doctor: Can I go check a pulse? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ICE Officer: No! Back up! Now!\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Doctor: I’m a physician!\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emily Heller: Hey, listen here! You just killed my f***ing neighbor!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Videos of the incidents immediately spread online, sparking nationwide outrage. Over the weekend, hundreds of protests gathered across the country, demanding accountability and an end to mass deportations. The Trump administration has tried to paint Renee as an agitator who was stalking and impeding upon ICE operations. On Truth Social, the president said that Renee, “Violently, willfully, and viciously ran over the ICE officer, who shot her in self-defense.” But as visual forensic analysis by the New York Times, the Washington Post, and Bellingcat shows, the officer was able to step away from the car and while still standing, fired at least 2 of the 3 shots through the window as the car turned away from him. As ICE operations continue across the country, the Trump administration has escalated retaliating against anyone who follows or records federal officers. This includes journalists, and any civilian just observing ICE. In the last year, ICE and Border Patrol officers have threatened, arrested, and detained those who document their activities or report on their whereabouts. And now, federal agents have appeared to reference the shooting of Renee Good in confrontations with observers, like in this video, which was posted on the r/minneapolis subreddit this week.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip 1 from r/minnesota Reddit page] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer:This is your warning! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driver: For what? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer: Stop f***ing following us! You are impeding operations! This is the United States Federal Government! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driver: I live over here, I gotta get to my house! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer:This is- this is your warning! Go home!\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driver: Go to church. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer: Did you not learn from what just happened? Go home! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driver: Learn what?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or in this video, which was posted on the r/minnesota subreddit days after Renee was killed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip 2 from r/minnesota Reddit page] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer: Have y’all not learned from the past couple of days? Have you not learned?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Recorder: Learned what? What’s our lesson here? What do you want us to learn?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer: Following federal agents.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Recorder: Give me my phone back!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In light of all this, many people are asking, are you allowed to record federal agents? And what are your rights when it comes to recording ICE, especially as the Trump administration increasingly tries to target those who do? This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. Let’s start with a new tab. Are you allowed to record ice? We’re back with C.J. Ciaramella, who reports on criminal justice and civil liberties for Reason Magazine. He’s going to put this into context for us. ICE activities have been escalating all throughout the past year, but what led up to this moment? And does it feel like a tipping point to you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It really does. This has been sort of the, I don’t want to say logical conclusion because that doesn’t put it in the right light, but over this past summer, we’ve seen escalating rhetoric from the Trump administration about people filming and recording and monitoring ICE and also trying to warn other people about ICE activities. They described this as illegal activity, saying that it’s obstruction of justice or impeding federal immigration officers and they vowed to like, prosecute people who do this. And they also made it clear to these line officers working at CBP and ICE, yeah that they consider this illegal activity. That they consider following around and monitoring these agents to be very confrontational, illegal. There are dozens of videos of ICE and CBP officers threatening to arrest people and pulling them out of the car solely for following and recording them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the main reasons that this incident specifically has exploded is because there are multiple video recordings taken by bystanders that have been shared online, gone viral, you know, just been spread among news outlets. You’ve been reporting on how the Trump administration is trying to make the case that recording ICE officers in public is illegal, like you said. But just to be clear, does the public have the right to record law enforcement and specifically ICE?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I gotta be a little bit nuanced about this because the Supreme Court actually hasn’t put out a ruling saying there’s an unambiguous First Amendment right to film the police. But all of the seven US Federal Circuit Courts that have considered the issue have pretty much said there is a First Amendment right to record the police and observe the police, and they’ve all decided that pretty unambiguously. And this ranges from, you know, the ninth circuit, which is traditionally a pretty liberal leaning court to the fifth circuit, which has a reputation as a more conservative circuit court, you know? The fifth circuit looked at it and said, you know, based on the first amendment tradition, the Supreme court presidents, this seems pretty unambiguous to us. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, so it’s not a completely like black and white issue, but it’s also not a, like, a thorny or divisive first amendment question. Every court that’s looked at, it has said, yeah. Based on our long First Amendment traditions. And in America, you have a right to record the police. Now, Minnesota is in one of the circuits that hasn’t yet ruled on this. So it’s not like black letter law in Minnesota.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. What protections does the public have, if any, when it comes to recording the police or recording law enforcement?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, you do have strong First Amendment protections, especially if you’re engaged in news gathering activity, if you’re monitoring a protest or monitoring police activity. And you don’t have to be an official journalist to do this because there’s no, you know, definition of journalists in the First Amendment. There are very strong protections for news gathering. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since about 2020, some states have passed what are called buffer laws that restrict people from recording the police within about 25 feet when they’re asked to get out of the way. And those have faced a lot of scrutiny from courts. Arizona and Indiana both had buffer laws that were overturned for being unconstitutionally vague. There would be too much of a chilling effect for preventing the public from recording police. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a really fundamental principle and privacy First Amendment and public record law in the United States, is that government officials doing official government work in public don’t have a reasonable expectation of privacy. You know, this is another example of a really sort of watershed moment in policing and law enforcement in America that’s based on recorded video evidence. The same as in Minneapolis with George Floyd in 2020, Rodney King, you know, is these have all had huge impacts on our nation’s history and they’re all based on people recording police activity and documenting it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The founders really believed that we should be able to hold our government accountable. And that includes having access to popular information and knowing what our government is doing. And that’s why recording the police and creating this sort of evidence trail is such a core protected first movement activity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In June last year, dozens of journalists were injured by law enforcement while covering the Los Angeles protests against mass deportation. Many journalists and protesters were tear gassed or shot at with pepper rounds and rubber bullets, or their phones and cameras were smashed while recording. One reporter was shot by a rubber bullet live on air.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Months later, a federal district court issued an injunction blocking the Department of Homeland Security, which includes ICE and Border Patrol from brutalizing journalists, protesters, and legal observers. That means that federal agents aren’t allowed to threaten or assault the press or protesters unless they have probable cause to believe they’ve committed a crime. They also can’t use chemical, projectile, and auditory weapons against protesters, journalists, or legal observers who don’t pose imminent harm to law enforcement. Basically, they can’t tear gas or shoot people just for exercising their First Amendment rights. Enforcement is another story, though.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There were injunctions against that, if I’m remembering correctly. There were a couple of injunctions trying to restrict the sort of tactics that federal law enforcement was using. We also saw the same thing in Chicago. There was injunctions trying to restrict ICE from retaliating against protesters and reporters who were engaged in really clear-cut First Amendment activity. And the judges kind of struggled to enforce that. In Chicago we saw the plaintiffs kept coming back with new motions saying like, here’s more evidence that your injunction is not being followed.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s been really hard to enforce because the Trump administration has, if not an officially stated, a de facto policy that anyone who is opposing them or filming them is subject to intimidation and retaliation. There was a Cato report that came out in December that outlined dozens of instances of people who are being intimidated and threatened by federal agents for engaging in really clearly protected First Amendment activity such as just following from a distance or recording police. In fact, I wrote a story about an Oregon woman who was followed by ICE agents because she was filming them in a parking lot and they followed her after she left and her lawyer shared video with me. She stopped at an intersection and you can see the the agents come up to her window and the first thing they say is ‘Why are you filming us?’ \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I want to say also as well that people who monitor police, reporters, and activists have faced First Amendment retaliation for decades. But what’s really startling and unprecedented here is that we’re hearing this coming from the top of the federal government. That is something that’s quite new, I would say. Secretary Noem was on record in July saying that, you know, violence is anything that threatens them and their safety and she included videotaping federal immigration officers. They’re equating videotaping officers with violence and domestic terrorism.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s what DHS Secretary Kristi Noem said during a press conference last summer\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Department of Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem during July 12, 2025 Press Conference inTampa, Florida].\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…And I will tell you that violence is anything that threatens them and their safety. So it is doxing them. It’s videotaping them where they’re at when they’re out on operations, encouraging other people to come and to throw things, rocks, bottles…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Notice the use of the word doxing here. That’s the act of posting private information about someone to target and harass them, usually like their home address or personal phone number. The Trump administration has equated identifying and publicly naming ICE agents to dox-ing. California recently banned federal officers from wearing masks on duty, with exceptions for medical masks like N95s, wildfire protection, and agents undercover. The ban was supposed to go into effect this month. Here’s state Senator Scott Wiener talking about the ban on Instagram.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Senator Scott Wiener speaking on Instagram ]\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I introduced and passed this law to stop ICE and any other law enforcement from covering their faces and effectively operating as secret police. It is horrifying what federal agents are doing, tearing communities apart, operating in the shadows, not identifying themselves, covering their faces so you don’t even know who you’re dealing with.\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the Trump administration has sued to block the bill, citing threats to federal officers like taunting, online doxing, and stalking. They argue that states like California have no authority to interfere with federal immigration operations, which means that state and local officials can’t enforce the mask ban. So are you allowed to record ICE? Yes, but like we’ve seen with California’s mask ban, the White House has been very opposed to any attempt at identifying federal officers. In fact, they’ve gone as far as trying to prosecute those who record and identify ICE agents. So what does this targeting and retaliation from the administration look like? And how is it holding up in courts? That’s after this break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back. Time to open a new tab: The legal battle over recording law enforcement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Trump administration is going as far as trying to prosecute people for following and recording ICE. And they’re using this federal statute to threaten those who get in their way. It’s called 18 USC 111. C.J. is going to tell us about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, well, it’s both a felony and a misdemeanor depending on the severity or why they want to charge it. But it’s for assaulting, impeding, or obstructing a federal law enforcement agent and it’s pretty much what it sounds like. It’s more or less a federal analog of the obstruction laws that you see at your local level where if you, you know, if a police officer is trying to arrest someone and you get in their way and try and pull the person away or physically obstruct the officer, you can get charged with obstruction. But this also, I would mention, obstruction is a classic, what’s known as a contempt of cop charge. It’s something that’s thrown at people when they annoy cops, and the police are looking for something that they can punish them with. But it’s also used frequently for people who are being a real nuisance to police, and that’s what it’s intended for. It’s for assaulting and physically obstructing officers. And it accounts for all federal law enforcement, including immigration.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. How is the administration trying to use this statute specifically to target those who film ICE? Have they had any success?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is, you know, this sort of top-down order is to treat people who are opposing them through, you know, First Amendment or activities of recording or warning other people as violating this statute to sort of broaden this to include non-violent or non-physical means of obstruction. And what’s been really interesting about that is that these prosecutions have faired really poorly compared to federal prosecutors’ usual track record. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Usually when a U.S. Attorney’s office brings a case to a grand jury, they almost always get it. It is extremely rare for federal prosecutors to bring a case to a jury and have them reject it. And most cases that they do bring end in guilty pleas and plea agreements. But what we’ve seen is grand juries refusing cases in Chicago and elsewhere, refusing to indict. And those cases then getting thrown out when body cam footage and other evidence comes to light showing that these actions that people are being charged for aren’t meeting the elements of this crime which requires physically obstructing or assaulting agents and you know by that definition following an officer isn’t obstructing them you know recording them isn’t physically obstructed them even alerting other people to the presence of ICE is not obstructing them. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The law on that is a little more mixed, but there have been courts that have upheld the right to, for example, warn motorists of speed traps ahead or to flash your lights to warn people of cops in the distance. They consider that First Amendment speech as well. So what we’ve seen is a lot of these prosecutions failing at an unprecedented rate. There have been quite a few cases where they’ve charged people with a felony charge. And then when a grand jury refuses to indict them, they are refiled as a misdemeanor, which doesn’t actually require a grand-jury indictment. And some of those cases have pled out guilty after the misdemeanor charge was refiled. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there’s been other cases where the federal prosecutors haven’t even been able to secure a misdemeanor conviction. The most famous case was the sandwich guy in DC, Sean Dunn, who threw a Subway sandwich at a CBP officer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from WUSA 9 newscast] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Customs and Border Patrol agent hit with the sandwich, characterized it as a profanity laced tirade, and he told the jury Dunn threw the sandwich so hard, it exploded against his bulletproof vest, “I could smell the onions and mustard.”\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The prosecutors were trying to convince the jury that this officer had a real fear for his safety when he got pelted with a sandwich, and the jury did not agree.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In an investigation published late last year, the Associated Press found that, since May, of the 100 people charged with felony assaults on federal agents, 55 saw their charges reduced to misdemeanors or just outright dismissed. Only 23 pleaded guilty.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’ve found that dozens of the cases have kind of fallen apart. That is a really high failure rate for federal prosecutors who nearly, when it comes to these sort of cases, are almost always batting a hundred. So it’s been a, it’s been very strange, I think, for the U.S. Prosecutor’s offices as well, who have had to face judges who are being very, well judges have to be very circumspect in their language, but are questioning these cases pretty harshly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even talking about this top-down almost order, right? JD Vance has made statements about how ICE agents have total immunity. How does that play into this? Like, what can you tell us about how much of the talk of ICE’s immunity can actually hold up against legal challenges?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I asked DHS public affairs office in December if they considered following and recording officers to be obstruction of justice. You know, I wanted to get a straight answer from them. And the office of public affairs sent me a statement attributed to an unnamed spokesperson who said, that sure sounds like obstruction of justice, which, you know, isn’t a super clear answer, but it gives you the mindset. And like I said, that is coming and that is trickling down from the very top of DHS to the line officers who are being told that they have immunity and that anyone who is sort of bothering them is probably violating the statute.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve established that recording law enforcement is a right upheld by federal courts. That’s not stopping ICE agents from continuing to target those who do record them. You had mentioned the woman in Oregon that you covered. What happened there when she was stopped?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She was detained for, I believe, five or six hours. She was taken to a detention facility and detained and eventually released without charges. Last time I checked, they still not filed any charges against her. So, you know, this was, um, can almost be seen as a purely retaliatory or punishment sort of, and that’s really, I think, what this comes down to is a textbook definition of a chilling effect on free speech. When you have these statements from top officials, when you have the vice president basically saying that these agents will have immunity for what they’re doing, it makes everyone who wants to participate and exercise their First Amendment right second guess whether it’s worth it.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I was out driving around in my hometown in December. Um, following ICE and CBP and taking pictures, you know, um, from a distance, but, uh, just seeing what they were doing because I’m a reporter and I had a unambiguous, crystal clear, First Amendment right to do that. But it was still in the back of my head, if these guys decided I was bothering them, they could bust out my car windows. They could detain me. They could pull their guns on me, which is all things that have happened to people for doing the same thing. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I was a reporter at 25, that wasn’t as much of a worry, but I have a kid at home, ah, you know, you start doing…the calculus gets a lot harder. And that’s exactly what this sort of policy and what this activity does is make people self-censor under the threat of government retaliation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was this woman who was detained for seven in Oregon. She’s just one of many dozens at this point who have been targeted by ICE. There are all the journalists in Los Angeles who were shot up by rubber bullets and injured. Is there any recourse for victims of retaliation like this?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so it is very, very hard to hold federal law enforcement agents accountable for their actions. They do have sovereign immunity from some criminal prosecutions. In federal court, you have to file a lawsuit against the U.S. Government. You actually can’t sue them as individuals. So you basically have to go to court against the US government. And it is a very, very long and hard road to follow to successfully sue the U.S. Government for civil rights deprivations.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The best options, um, are probably more sweeping class action injunctions and sort of broader rulings against the general activity, just because it’s so hard to hold individual officers accountable even on a class action or individual level.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Considering everything we just talked about, what should people know before they consider recording ICE or other law enforcement activities?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What I say you should know is that you do have the First Amendment right to do this. You have the right to record and monitor, and you even have the right to verbally oppose the police. One of the Supreme Court decisions that a lot of circuit courts have looked back on when they’re deciding these sort of questions was a 1987 Supreme Court ruling in a case called Houston v Hill, where they struck down an ordinance that made it unlawful to oppose or interrupt a police officer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Supreme Court Justice William Brennan, Jr. wrote, “The freedom of individuals verbally to oppose or challenge police action without thereby risking arrest is one of the principle characteristics by which we distinguish a free nation from a police state.” And courts they’ll look back to that when they’re deciding things like whether you should be able to yell an obscenity at a police officer or record them. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nAnd like I said, what the administration is trying to do is create a chilling effect here. And what people should know is that they are banking on fear and banking on you not wanting to exercise your First Amendment rights. And what we’re seeing all around the country with these protests and with people coming out and confronting ICE agents and CBP agents more is that it’s not working.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So remember, recording ICE, or any law enforcement, is your constitutional right, but it’s not without risks. We’ll link some resources for staying safe in the show notes. And check out our two-part series, The Surveillance Machine, for a deeper dive on the history of protest surveillance and how it’s used today. Okay, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva, and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and our credits music. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "When U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officer Jonathan Ross shot and killed Renee Good in Minneapolis, it became an instant flashpoint in the ongoing escalation of federal law enforcement violence. It also put a spotlight on the U.S. government’s efforts to prevent people from documenting federal agents in public.In this episode, we dig into a simple but important question: do you have the right to record ICE? Criminal justice reporter C.J. Ciaramella explains how the Trump administration is working to create a chilling effect around filming law enforcement, why legal challenges are intensifying, and how courts are increasingly pushing back.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officer Jonathan Ross shot and killed Renee Good in Minneapolis, it became an instant flashpoint in the ongoing escalation of federal law enforcement violence. It also put a spotlight on the U.S. government’s efforts to prevent people from documenting federal agents in public.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode, we dig into a simple but important question: do you have the right to record ICE? Criminal justice reporter C.J. Ciaramella explains how the Trump administration is working to create a chilling effect around filming law enforcement, why legal challenges are intensifying, and how courts are increasingly pushing back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5878884828\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://reason.com/people/cj-ciaramella/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">C.J. Ciaramella\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Criminal Justice Reporter at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Reason\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://minnesotareformer.com/2026/01/07/ice-officer-fatally-shoots-driver-through-car-window-in-minneapolis/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ICE officer fatally shoots driver through car window in Minneapolis\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Max Nesterak, Madison McVan and Alyssa Chen, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Minnesota Reformer \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://reason.com/2026/01/08/you-have-the-right-to-record-ice/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Trump administration says it’s illegal to record videos of ICE. Here’s what the law says.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — C.J. Ciaramella, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Reason\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://reason.com/2025/12/22/dhs-says-recording-or-following-law-enforcement-sure-sounds-like-obstruction-of-justice/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DHS says recording or following law enforcement ‘sure sounds like obstruction of justice’\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — C.J. Ciaramella, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Reason\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11871364/recording-the-police-what-to-know-and-how-to-stay-safe-doing-it\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Recording the Police: Tips for Safety and Awareness\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Carly Severn and Mina Kim, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://prospect.org/2025/09/09/2025-09-09-dhs-claims-videotaping-ice-raids-is-violence/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">DHS Claims Videotaping ICE Raids Is ‘Violence’\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Matthew Cunningham-Cook, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The American Prospect\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/2025/11/ice-detains-us-citizen-for-7-hours-after-she-photographed-agents-in-gresham.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ICE detains U.S. citizen for 7 hours after she photographed agents in Oregon\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Yesenia Amaro, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Oregonian\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/ice-immigration-protests-prosecutions-doj-arrests-591f155d50c13756842e033ea23f16d3?link_source=ta_bluesky_link&taid=6943fae5c2e22c00016e74ad&utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=bluesky\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dozens of felony cases crumble in DOJ push to punish protesters\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Michael Biesecker, Jamie Ding, Christine Fernando, Claire Rush, and Ryan J. Foley, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Associated Press \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://time.com/7344924/federal-officers-shooting-immigration-portland-minneapolis-prosecution-immunity/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What Happens When Federal Officers Use Force \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— Miranda Jeyaretnam, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TIME \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/justice/2025/12/immigration-mask-ban-new-law/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">California is banning masks for federal agents. Here’s why it could lose in court\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Nigel Duara, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">CalMatters\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just a note, this episode contains references to violence and strong language. Listen with care.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from 50501_Key_Largo Instagram Account]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Border Patrol Officer: If I continue to see you following me around, I’m gonna pull you over and arrest you.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Local Observer: For what? What law am I breaking?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Border Patrol Officer: You’re impeding one of the investigations, okay?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was an interaction between a Border Patrol officer and a local observer in Key Largo, Florida, posted on Instagram on Monday morning. The officer threatened to arrest the observer for following and filming him, but didn’t say what law they were breaking.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from 50501_Key_Largo Instagram Account]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Local Observer: How am I impeding you?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Border Patrol Officer: I’m not going to argue with you.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Local Observer: Are you going to shoot me?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Border Patrol Officer: Why would I shoot you?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Local Observer: Because one of your guys, one of you federal people just shot an innocent woman and murdered her in Minneapolis.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last week, on January 7th, federal immigration and customs enforcement officers shot and killed Renee Good in Minneapolis, Minnesota. She was 37. The Trump administration has launched an extensive immigration crackdown in Minneapolis singling out the city’s large Somali community. Last week they sent 2,000 federal agents in what ICE Acting Director Todd Lyons described as the largest immigration operation ever.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella, Guest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In response, a lot of citizens have been protesting and following and monitoring ICE and CBP officers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is C.J. Ciaramella, a reporter for Reason magazine who covers criminal justice and civil liberties. He’s been reporting on the Trump administration’s crackdown on those who record or photograph ICE operations. Last Wednesday, Renee Good and her wife had just dropped their six-year-old son off at school when they came across a group of ICE agents. Bystander video shows that Renee’s car was stopped perpendicularly on the road.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And an ICE, uh, a pickup of federal immigration officers stopped in front of her and went up and were shouting at her to…there were some contradictory orders to both leave and get out of her car and started tugging on her car. She started backing up first and then as she was doing that, one of the immigration officers stepped in front her car and she started moving forward and pulling out to leave with the officer in front of her. And as he was stepping around her car, as it was moving towards him, he pulled out his gun and fired three shots and killed her.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are several bystander videos that captured different angles of Renee’s last moments and the gruesome aftermath. One shows an officer denying medical assistance for Renee after a bystander identified himself as a doctor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio from a video recorded by eyewitness Emily Heller]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Doctor: Can I go check a pulse? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">ICE Officer: No! Back up! Now!\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Doctor: I’m a physician!\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Emily Heller: Hey, listen here! You just killed my f***ing neighbor!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Videos of the incidents immediately spread online, sparking nationwide outrage. Over the weekend, hundreds of protests gathered across the country, demanding accountability and an end to mass deportations. The Trump administration has tried to paint Renee as an agitator who was stalking and impeding upon ICE operations. On Truth Social, the president said that Renee, “Violently, willfully, and viciously ran over the ICE officer, who shot her in self-defense.” But as visual forensic analysis by the New York Times, the Washington Post, and Bellingcat shows, the officer was able to step away from the car and while still standing, fired at least 2 of the 3 shots through the window as the car turned away from him. As ICE operations continue across the country, the Trump administration has escalated retaliating against anyone who follows or records federal officers. This includes journalists, and any civilian just observing ICE. In the last year, ICE and Border Patrol officers have threatened, arrested, and detained those who document their activities or report on their whereabouts. And now, federal agents have appeared to reference the shooting of Renee Good in confrontations with observers, like in this video, which was posted on the r/minneapolis subreddit this week.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip 1 from r/minnesota Reddit page] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer:This is your warning! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driver: For what? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer: Stop f***ing following us! You are impeding operations! This is the United States Federal Government! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driver: I live over here, I gotta get to my house! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer:This is- this is your warning! Go home!\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driver: Go to church. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer: Did you not learn from what just happened? Go home! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Driver: Learn what?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or in this video, which was posted on the r/minnesota subreddit days after Renee was killed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip 2 from r/minnesota Reddit page] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer: Have y’all not learned from the past couple of days? Have you not learned?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Recorder: Learned what? What’s our lesson here? What do you want us to learn?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Officer: Following federal agents.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Recorder: Give me my phone back!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In light of all this, many people are asking, are you allowed to record federal agents? And what are your rights when it comes to recording ICE, especially as the Trump administration increasingly tries to target those who do? This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. Let’s start with a new tab. Are you allowed to record ice? We’re back with C.J. Ciaramella, who reports on criminal justice and civil liberties for Reason Magazine. He’s going to put this into context for us. ICE activities have been escalating all throughout the past year, but what led up to this moment? And does it feel like a tipping point to you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It really does. This has been sort of the, I don’t want to say logical conclusion because that doesn’t put it in the right light, but over this past summer, we’ve seen escalating rhetoric from the Trump administration about people filming and recording and monitoring ICE and also trying to warn other people about ICE activities. They described this as illegal activity, saying that it’s obstruction of justice or impeding federal immigration officers and they vowed to like, prosecute people who do this. And they also made it clear to these line officers working at CBP and ICE, yeah that they consider this illegal activity. That they consider following around and monitoring these agents to be very confrontational, illegal. There are dozens of videos of ICE and CBP officers threatening to arrest people and pulling them out of the car solely for following and recording them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the main reasons that this incident specifically has exploded is because there are multiple video recordings taken by bystanders that have been shared online, gone viral, you know, just been spread among news outlets. You’ve been reporting on how the Trump administration is trying to make the case that recording ICE officers in public is illegal, like you said. But just to be clear, does the public have the right to record law enforcement and specifically ICE?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I gotta be a little bit nuanced about this because the Supreme Court actually hasn’t put out a ruling saying there’s an unambiguous First Amendment right to film the police. But all of the seven US Federal Circuit Courts that have considered the issue have pretty much said there is a First Amendment right to record the police and observe the police, and they’ve all decided that pretty unambiguously. And this ranges from, you know, the ninth circuit, which is traditionally a pretty liberal leaning court to the fifth circuit, which has a reputation as a more conservative circuit court, you know? The fifth circuit looked at it and said, you know, based on the first amendment tradition, the Supreme court presidents, this seems pretty unambiguous to us. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, so it’s not a completely like black and white issue, but it’s also not a, like, a thorny or divisive first amendment question. Every court that’s looked at, it has said, yeah. Based on our long First Amendment traditions. And in America, you have a right to record the police. Now, Minnesota is in one of the circuits that hasn’t yet ruled on this. So it’s not like black letter law in Minnesota.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. What protections does the public have, if any, when it comes to recording the police or recording law enforcement?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, you do have strong First Amendment protections, especially if you’re engaged in news gathering activity, if you’re monitoring a protest or monitoring police activity. And you don’t have to be an official journalist to do this because there’s no, you know, definition of journalists in the First Amendment. There are very strong protections for news gathering. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since about 2020, some states have passed what are called buffer laws that restrict people from recording the police within about 25 feet when they’re asked to get out of the way. And those have faced a lot of scrutiny from courts. Arizona and Indiana both had buffer laws that were overturned for being unconstitutionally vague. There would be too much of a chilling effect for preventing the public from recording police. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a really fundamental principle and privacy First Amendment and public record law in the United States, is that government officials doing official government work in public don’t have a reasonable expectation of privacy. You know, this is another example of a really sort of watershed moment in policing and law enforcement in America that’s based on recorded video evidence. The same as in Minneapolis with George Floyd in 2020, Rodney King, you know, is these have all had huge impacts on our nation’s history and they’re all based on people recording police activity and documenting it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The founders really believed that we should be able to hold our government accountable. And that includes having access to popular information and knowing what our government is doing. And that’s why recording the police and creating this sort of evidence trail is such a core protected first movement activity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In June last year, dozens of journalists were injured by law enforcement while covering the Los Angeles protests against mass deportation. Many journalists and protesters were tear gassed or shot at with pepper rounds and rubber bullets, or their phones and cameras were smashed while recording. One reporter was shot by a rubber bullet live on air.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Months later, a federal district court issued an injunction blocking the Department of Homeland Security, which includes ICE and Border Patrol from brutalizing journalists, protesters, and legal observers. That means that federal agents aren’t allowed to threaten or assault the press or protesters unless they have probable cause to believe they’ve committed a crime. They also can’t use chemical, projectile, and auditory weapons against protesters, journalists, or legal observers who don’t pose imminent harm to law enforcement. Basically, they can’t tear gas or shoot people just for exercising their First Amendment rights. Enforcement is another story, though.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There were injunctions against that, if I’m remembering correctly. There were a couple of injunctions trying to restrict the sort of tactics that federal law enforcement was using. We also saw the same thing in Chicago. There was injunctions trying to restrict ICE from retaliating against protesters and reporters who were engaged in really clear-cut First Amendment activity. And the judges kind of struggled to enforce that. In Chicago we saw the plaintiffs kept coming back with new motions saying like, here’s more evidence that your injunction is not being followed.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s been really hard to enforce because the Trump administration has, if not an officially stated, a de facto policy that anyone who is opposing them or filming them is subject to intimidation and retaliation. There was a Cato report that came out in December that outlined dozens of instances of people who are being intimidated and threatened by federal agents for engaging in really clearly protected First Amendment activity such as just following from a distance or recording police. In fact, I wrote a story about an Oregon woman who was followed by ICE agents because she was filming them in a parking lot and they followed her after she left and her lawyer shared video with me. She stopped at an intersection and you can see the the agents come up to her window and the first thing they say is ‘Why are you filming us?’ \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I want to say also as well that people who monitor police, reporters, and activists have faced First Amendment retaliation for decades. But what’s really startling and unprecedented here is that we’re hearing this coming from the top of the federal government. That is something that’s quite new, I would say. Secretary Noem was on record in July saying that, you know, violence is anything that threatens them and their safety and she included videotaping federal immigration officers. They’re equating videotaping officers with violence and domestic terrorism.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s what DHS Secretary Kristi Noem said during a press conference last summer\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Department of Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem during July 12, 2025 Press Conference inTampa, Florida].\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…And I will tell you that violence is anything that threatens them and their safety. So it is doxing them. It’s videotaping them where they’re at when they’re out on operations, encouraging other people to come and to throw things, rocks, bottles…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Notice the use of the word doxing here. That’s the act of posting private information about someone to target and harass them, usually like their home address or personal phone number. The Trump administration has equated identifying and publicly naming ICE agents to dox-ing. California recently banned federal officers from wearing masks on duty, with exceptions for medical masks like N95s, wildfire protection, and agents undercover. The ban was supposed to go into effect this month. Here’s state Senator Scott Wiener talking about the ban on Instagram.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Senator Scott Wiener speaking on Instagram ]\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I introduced and passed this law to stop ICE and any other law enforcement from covering their faces and effectively operating as secret police. It is horrifying what federal agents are doing, tearing communities apart, operating in the shadows, not identifying themselves, covering their faces so you don’t even know who you’re dealing with.\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the Trump administration has sued to block the bill, citing threats to federal officers like taunting, online doxing, and stalking. They argue that states like California have no authority to interfere with federal immigration operations, which means that state and local officials can’t enforce the mask ban. So are you allowed to record ICE? Yes, but like we’ve seen with California’s mask ban, the White House has been very opposed to any attempt at identifying federal officers. In fact, they’ve gone as far as trying to prosecute those who record and identify ICE agents. So what does this targeting and retaliation from the administration look like? And how is it holding up in courts? That’s after this break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back. Time to open a new tab: The legal battle over recording law enforcement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Trump administration is going as far as trying to prosecute people for following and recording ICE. And they’re using this federal statute to threaten those who get in their way. It’s called 18 USC 111. C.J. is going to tell us about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, well, it’s both a felony and a misdemeanor depending on the severity or why they want to charge it. But it’s for assaulting, impeding, or obstructing a federal law enforcement agent and it’s pretty much what it sounds like. It’s more or less a federal analog of the obstruction laws that you see at your local level where if you, you know, if a police officer is trying to arrest someone and you get in their way and try and pull the person away or physically obstruct the officer, you can get charged with obstruction. But this also, I would mention, obstruction is a classic, what’s known as a contempt of cop charge. It’s something that’s thrown at people when they annoy cops, and the police are looking for something that they can punish them with. But it’s also used frequently for people who are being a real nuisance to police, and that’s what it’s intended for. It’s for assaulting and physically obstructing officers. And it accounts for all federal law enforcement, including immigration.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. How is the administration trying to use this statute specifically to target those who film ICE? Have they had any success?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is, you know, this sort of top-down order is to treat people who are opposing them through, you know, First Amendment or activities of recording or warning other people as violating this statute to sort of broaden this to include non-violent or non-physical means of obstruction. And what’s been really interesting about that is that these prosecutions have faired really poorly compared to federal prosecutors’ usual track record. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Usually when a U.S. Attorney’s office brings a case to a grand jury, they almost always get it. It is extremely rare for federal prosecutors to bring a case to a jury and have them reject it. And most cases that they do bring end in guilty pleas and plea agreements. But what we’ve seen is grand juries refusing cases in Chicago and elsewhere, refusing to indict. And those cases then getting thrown out when body cam footage and other evidence comes to light showing that these actions that people are being charged for aren’t meeting the elements of this crime which requires physically obstructing or assaulting agents and you know by that definition following an officer isn’t obstructing them you know recording them isn’t physically obstructed them even alerting other people to the presence of ICE is not obstructing them. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The law on that is a little more mixed, but there have been courts that have upheld the right to, for example, warn motorists of speed traps ahead or to flash your lights to warn people of cops in the distance. They consider that First Amendment speech as well. So what we’ve seen is a lot of these prosecutions failing at an unprecedented rate. There have been quite a few cases where they’ve charged people with a felony charge. And then when a grand jury refuses to indict them, they are refiled as a misdemeanor, which doesn’t actually require a grand-jury indictment. And some of those cases have pled out guilty after the misdemeanor charge was refiled. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there’s been other cases where the federal prosecutors haven’t even been able to secure a misdemeanor conviction. The most famous case was the sandwich guy in DC, Sean Dunn, who threw a Subway sandwich at a CBP officer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from WUSA 9 newscast] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Customs and Border Patrol agent hit with the sandwich, characterized it as a profanity laced tirade, and he told the jury Dunn threw the sandwich so hard, it exploded against his bulletproof vest, “I could smell the onions and mustard.”\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The prosecutors were trying to convince the jury that this officer had a real fear for his safety when he got pelted with a sandwich, and the jury did not agree.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In an investigation published late last year, the Associated Press found that, since May, of the 100 people charged with felony assaults on federal agents, 55 saw their charges reduced to misdemeanors or just outright dismissed. Only 23 pleaded guilty.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’ve found that dozens of the cases have kind of fallen apart. That is a really high failure rate for federal prosecutors who nearly, when it comes to these sort of cases, are almost always batting a hundred. So it’s been a, it’s been very strange, I think, for the U.S. Prosecutor’s offices as well, who have had to face judges who are being very, well judges have to be very circumspect in their language, but are questioning these cases pretty harshly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even talking about this top-down almost order, right? JD Vance has made statements about how ICE agents have total immunity. How does that play into this? Like, what can you tell us about how much of the talk of ICE’s immunity can actually hold up against legal challenges?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I asked DHS public affairs office in December if they considered following and recording officers to be obstruction of justice. You know, I wanted to get a straight answer from them. And the office of public affairs sent me a statement attributed to an unnamed spokesperson who said, that sure sounds like obstruction of justice, which, you know, isn’t a super clear answer, but it gives you the mindset. And like I said, that is coming and that is trickling down from the very top of DHS to the line officers who are being told that they have immunity and that anyone who is sort of bothering them is probably violating the statute.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve established that recording law enforcement is a right upheld by federal courts. That’s not stopping ICE agents from continuing to target those who do record them. You had mentioned the woman in Oregon that you covered. What happened there when she was stopped?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She was detained for, I believe, five or six hours. She was taken to a detention facility and detained and eventually released without charges. Last time I checked, they still not filed any charges against her. So, you know, this was, um, can almost be seen as a purely retaliatory or punishment sort of, and that’s really, I think, what this comes down to is a textbook definition of a chilling effect on free speech. When you have these statements from top officials, when you have the vice president basically saying that these agents will have immunity for what they’re doing, it makes everyone who wants to participate and exercise their First Amendment right second guess whether it’s worth it.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I was out driving around in my hometown in December. Um, following ICE and CBP and taking pictures, you know, um, from a distance, but, uh, just seeing what they were doing because I’m a reporter and I had a unambiguous, crystal clear, First Amendment right to do that. But it was still in the back of my head, if these guys decided I was bothering them, they could bust out my car windows. They could detain me. They could pull their guns on me, which is all things that have happened to people for doing the same thing. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I was a reporter at 25, that wasn’t as much of a worry, but I have a kid at home, ah, you know, you start doing…the calculus gets a lot harder. And that’s exactly what this sort of policy and what this activity does is make people self-censor under the threat of government retaliation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was this woman who was detained for seven in Oregon. She’s just one of many dozens at this point who have been targeted by ICE. There are all the journalists in Los Angeles who were shot up by rubber bullets and injured. Is there any recourse for victims of retaliation like this?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so it is very, very hard to hold federal law enforcement agents accountable for their actions. They do have sovereign immunity from some criminal prosecutions. In federal court, you have to file a lawsuit against the U.S. Government. You actually can’t sue them as individuals. So you basically have to go to court against the US government. And it is a very, very long and hard road to follow to successfully sue the U.S. Government for civil rights deprivations.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The best options, um, are probably more sweeping class action injunctions and sort of broader rulings against the general activity, just because it’s so hard to hold individual officers accountable even on a class action or individual level.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Considering everything we just talked about, what should people know before they consider recording ICE or other law enforcement activities?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What I say you should know is that you do have the First Amendment right to do this. You have the right to record and monitor, and you even have the right to verbally oppose the police. One of the Supreme Court decisions that a lot of circuit courts have looked back on when they’re deciding these sort of questions was a 1987 Supreme Court ruling in a case called Houston v Hill, where they struck down an ordinance that made it unlawful to oppose or interrupt a police officer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Supreme Court Justice William Brennan, Jr. wrote, “The freedom of individuals verbally to oppose or challenge police action without thereby risking arrest is one of the principle characteristics by which we distinguish a free nation from a police state.” And courts they’ll look back to that when they’re deciding things like whether you should be able to yell an obscenity at a police officer or record them. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nAnd like I said, what the administration is trying to do is create a chilling effect here. And what people should know is that they are banking on fear and banking on you not wanting to exercise your First Amendment rights. And what we’re seeing all around the country with these protests and with people coming out and confronting ICE agents and CBP agents more is that it’s not working.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So remember, recording ICE, or any law enforcement, is your constitutional right, but it’s not without risks. We’ll link some resources for staying safe in the show notes. And check out our two-part series, The Surveillance Machine, for a deeper dive on the history of protest surveillance and how it’s used today. Okay, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was produced by Maya Cueva, and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and our credits music. Chris Hambrick is our editor. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, and I know it’s a podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>Common Sense Media and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/openai\">OpenAI\u003c/a> announced Friday they’re backing a consolidated effort to deliver AI chatbot guardrails for children, after dropping their competing ballot measures on the issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The announcement was a surprising turn of events, pairing two players in the space who have often been at odds with each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lobbyists for OpenAI and other major tech industry groups \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12059714/newsom-vetoes-most-watched-childrens-ai-bill-signs-16-others-targeting-tech\">actively opposed a similar bill\u003c/a> co-sponsored by the child advocacy group Common Sense Media in the last legislative session. Gov. Gavin Newsom ultimately \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12059714/newsom-vetoes-most-watched-childrens-ai-bill-signs-16-others-targeting-tech\">vetoed the bill\u003c/a> in October 2025.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Parents & Kids Safe AI Act would require companies to identify youth users and deliver an experience designed to block emotional manipulation and child-targeted advertising, as well as give parents more control. The state’s attorney general’s office would enforce the provisions, and independent annual safety audits would provide accountability.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What’s in it for OpenAI?\u003c/strong> Chris Lehane, chief global affairs officer for the San Francisco-based AI developer, said there’s great appeal for the company to partner with Common Sense Media, because it has credibility with voters, lawmakers and parents. “How you build this trust is incredibly important for the societal license to be able to operate,” Lehane said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069332\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12069332 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/phones-at-school-getty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/phones-at-school-getty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/phones-at-school-getty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/phones-at-school-getty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">In September 2024, Gov. Gavin Newsom signed the Phone‑Free Schools Act (AB 3216), which requires every school district, charter school and county education office to adopt policies by July 1, 2026, that limit or prohibit the use of smartphones by students while on campus or under school supervision.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Not mentioned: the company is facing several \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063401/openai-faces-legal-storm-over-claims-its-ai-drove-users-to-suicide-delusions\">lawsuits\u003c/a> from plaintiffs claiming ChatGPT brought on mental delusions and, in four cases, drove people to suicide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What’s in it for Common Sense Media?\u003c/strong> Jim Steyer, the advocacy group’s founder and CEO, said their polling shows overwhelming numbers of California voters, regardless of their party, support stronger AI protections for kids, teens and families. “This is so core to the long-term future of this industry that there are the right kind of protections, and that the public trusts these platforms and the big frontier labs,” Steyer said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m pleased to see a leading child safety organization and a large tech company joining forces on this critical safety issue affecting our children,” wrote Asm. Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, D-Orinda, who authored the similar bill Newsom vetoed last year. “The legislature’s role remains unchanged; we have both the role and responsibility to protect California’s children and to represent our constituents.”[aside postID=news_12060365 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/SamAltmanGetty.jpg']“While this is an important milestone, there’s more work to be done and I continue to believe this issue should be tackled by the legislature and governor through a public process inviting all stakeholders to participate,” wrote Sen. Steve Padilla, D-San Diego, who authored SB 243, an AI chatbot safety bill that \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12058013/newsom-signs-california-ai-transparency-bill-tailored-to-meet-tech-industry-tastes\">did get the governor’s signature\u003c/a> last year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Padilla, however, disagrees with the proposal to put the law into the state constitution, warning that it would create an unnecessarily high bar to revise and update that law in the future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When asked about opting to promote a ballot measure, Steyer argued he’s interested in whatever strategy or combination of strategies gets child safety regulations on the books.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the last year alone, Common Sense Media has sponsored or supported a variety of bills aimed at protecting children online, including social media warning labels and an age verification mandate. “At this pivotal moment for AI, we cannot make the same mistake that we did with social media,” Steyer said, criticizing Silicon Valley companies that have been using children as guinea pigs, and “fueled a youth mental health crisis here in California, and quite frankly, across the world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lehane predictably used more measured terms. “We do believe AI is an empowerment tool. It helps people solve really hard problems,” he began, finishing with “Part and parcel of that is making sure parents have the control and are empowered to exercise control in terms of how their kids use it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The initiative’s backers still need to gather signatures to qualify it for the California ballot this November, an effort that Lehane said is likely to begin next month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Parents & Kids Safe AI Act would require companies to identify youth users and deliver an experience designed to block emotional manipulation and child-targeted advertising, as well as give parents more control. The state’s attorney general’s office would enforce the provisions, and independent annual safety audits would provide accountability.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What’s in it for OpenAI?\u003c/strong> Chris Lehane, chief global affairs officer for the San Francisco-based AI developer, said there’s great appeal for the company to partner with Common Sense Media, because it has credibility with voters, lawmakers and parents. “How you build this trust is incredibly important for the societal license to be able to operate,” Lehane said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12069332\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12069332 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/phones-at-school-getty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/phones-at-school-getty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/phones-at-school-getty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/phones-at-school-getty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">In September 2024, Gov. Gavin Newsom signed the Phone‑Free Schools Act (AB 3216), which requires every school district, charter school and county education office to adopt policies by July 1, 2026, that limit or prohibit the use of smartphones by students while on campus or under school supervision.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Not mentioned: the company is facing several \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12063401/openai-faces-legal-storm-over-claims-its-ai-drove-users-to-suicide-delusions\">lawsuits\u003c/a> from plaintiffs claiming ChatGPT brought on mental delusions and, in four cases, drove people to suicide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What’s in it for Common Sense Media?\u003c/strong> Jim Steyer, the advocacy group’s founder and CEO, said their polling shows overwhelming numbers of California voters, regardless of their party, support stronger AI protections for kids, teens and families. “This is so core to the long-term future of this industry that there are the right kind of protections, and that the public trusts these platforms and the big frontier labs,” Steyer said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m pleased to see a leading child safety organization and a large tech company joining forces on this critical safety issue affecting our children,” wrote Asm. Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, D-Orinda, who authored the similar bill Newsom vetoed last year. “The legislature’s role remains unchanged; we have both the role and responsibility to protect California’s children and to represent our constituents.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“While this is an important milestone, there’s more work to be done and I continue to believe this issue should be tackled by the legislature and governor through a public process inviting all stakeholders to participate,” wrote Sen. Steve Padilla, D-San Diego, who authored SB 243, an AI chatbot safety bill that \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12058013/newsom-signs-california-ai-transparency-bill-tailored-to-meet-tech-industry-tastes\">did get the governor’s signature\u003c/a> last year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Padilla, however, disagrees with the proposal to put the law into the state constitution, warning that it would create an unnecessarily high bar to revise and update that law in the future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When asked about opting to promote a ballot measure, Steyer argued he’s interested in whatever strategy or combination of strategies gets child safety regulations on the books.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the last year alone, Common Sense Media has sponsored or supported a variety of bills aimed at protecting children online, including social media warning labels and an age verification mandate. “At this pivotal moment for AI, we cannot make the same mistake that we did with social media,” Steyer said, criticizing Silicon Valley companies that have been using children as guinea pigs, and “fueled a youth mental health crisis here in California, and quite frankly, across the world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lehane predictably used more measured terms. “We do believe AI is an empowerment tool. It helps people solve really hard problems,” he began, finishing with “Part and parcel of that is making sure parents have the control and are empowered to exercise control in terms of how their kids use it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The initiative’s backers still need to gather signatures to qualify it for the California ballot this November, an effort that Lehane said is likely to begin next month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "save-or-scroll-open-ais-head-of-preparedness-global-ram-shortage-ai-artists-and-a-manosphere-antidote",
"title": "Save or Scroll: OpenAI’s Head of Preparedness, Global RAM Shortage, AI Artists, and a Manosphere Antidote",
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"headTitle": "Save or Scroll: OpenAI’s Head of Preparedness, Global RAM Shortage, AI Artists, and a Manosphere Antidote | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a holiday installment of Save or Scroll, Morgan and the Close All Tabs team get together to talk over the stories they can’t stop thinking about. From OpenAI’s concerning new job posting, to a major RAM shortage, AI artists on the come up, and an antidote to the Manosphere, they’ve got a lot to chew on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Save or Scroll is our series where we team up with guests for a rapid-fire roundup of internet trends that are filling our feeds right now. At the end of each segment, they’ll decide: is the post just for the group chat, or should we save it for a future episode?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC9668443018\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>Morgan Sung, Host of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Chris Egusa, Senior Editor of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Maya Cueva, Producer of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Chris Hambrick, Editor of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/news/850537/sam-altman-openai-head-of-preparedness\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sam Altman is hiring someone to worry about the dangers of AI\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Terrence O’Brien, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.businessinsider.com/challenges-of-openai-head-of-preparedness-role-2025-12\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why OpenAI’s $555,000 Head of Preparedness Role May Be Hard to Fill\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Sarah E. Needleman, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Business Insider\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/12/28/nx-s1-5656190/ai-chips-memory-prices-ram\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Memory loss: As AI gobbles up chips, prices for devices may rise\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — John Ruwitch, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NPR\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.techradar.com/pro/why-is-ram-so-expensive-right-now-its-more-complicated-than-you-think\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why is RAM so expensive right now? It’s way more complicated than you think\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Wayne Williams, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TechRadar\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.forbes.com/sites/dougmelville/2025/09/27/al-singer-xania-monet-just-charted-on-billboard-signed-3m-deal-is-this-the-future-of-music/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI Singer Xania Monet Just Charted On Billboard, Signed $3 Million Deal. Is This The Future Of Music?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Doug Melville, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forbes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.billboard.com/lists/ai-artists-on-billboard-charts/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How Many AI Artists Have Debuted on Billboard’s Charts?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Xander Zellner, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Billboard\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/01/style/trump-zuckerberg-masculinity.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The ‘Manosphere’? It’s Planet Earth.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Joseph Bernstein, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/reel/DSvjuMEkj0H/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA%3D%3D\">“2024 self interviewing my 2025 self”\u003c/a> — @seanjaye1988, Instagram Reel\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome back to Close All tabs. We’ve been on a break the last few weeks, refreshing, relaxing, touching grass. In my case, being back on the East Coast for the holidays, touching a lot of snow. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend here at Open. As many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives, except today we aren’t opening any tabs. That’s right, to kick off the new year, we’re back with another episode of Save or Scroll. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, what is Save or Scroll? This is a game we play every now and then on close all tabs. We do a lot of deep dives on the show, but sometimes I come across a story that’s fascinating and wild and I’m dying to talk about it with someone, but there isn’t necessarily enough to do an entire episode about it. Or I do a little digging and realize that there’s a lot more to the story and it’s definitely worth a deep dive. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a very special Save or Scroll because joining me is the rest of the close all tabs team. On today’s episode, we have senior editor Chris Egusa,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa, guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey there!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> producer Maya Cueva,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva, guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hi, Morgan!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and editor Chris Hambrick.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick, guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hello!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So we have all been offline for the last few weeks, and today we’re gonna catch up with a few different tech and internet stories that may have slipped under the radar during the holiday season. And for this episode, each of the four of us has brought one story that we cannot stop thinking about, that’s haunted us throughout our entire holiday break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as a group, we’re gonna decide to Save or Scroll. If we scroll, that means we’ve talked about it, we’re moving on. If we decide to save, that means we’re bookmarking it and we might dive in deeper in a future episode. And based on the stories we brought today, we’re gonna make a few predictions for the new year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You guys ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ready. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m ready.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, Chris E, you’re up first. What did you bring us today?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So if you want to get paid $555,000 to stop the AI apocalypse, I have good news. Open AI is hiring for a new position: head of preparedness. So get excited.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a bit ominous.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re all launching your applications right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So on December 27th, we were treated to kind of a late Christmas present from Mr. Sam Altman, CEO of OpenAI, which side note, is actually within a walking distance of where we are recording right now at the KQED studios. But yeah, he posted on X that the company is hiring for a head of preparedness.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What does this mean? You might ask? Here is a little bit of Sam’s post, he said, “We are hiring a head of preparedness. This is a critical role at an important time. Models are improving quickly and are now capable of many great things, but they’re also starting to present some real challenges. The potential impact of models on mental health was something we saw a preview of in 2025. We are also now seeing models get so good at computer security, they’re beginning to find critical vulnerabilities.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So he goes on to say that this person would be responsible for executing the company’s quote preparedness framework, uh, securing AI models for the release of biological capabilities, which, that definitely sounds ominous.Um, and at the end of the post, he warns that it will be a stressful job and that you’ll jump in immediately. So get those resumes ready. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh God. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can I ask a clarifying question?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Please.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Is this basically like they’re hiring someone to pull the plug…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …if it all goes bad?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Great question. And there’ve been some, some online jokes about that as well. Basically, this is a person who is directly responsible for preventing all of the risks posed by all of this ever advancing AI technology.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People are calling it an impossible job because those risks are innumerable and impossible to really predict. Right? And like you mentioned Morgan, immediately, uh, there were jokes about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So some people posted a fake open AI job post from a few years ago that was called, uh, Kill Switch Engineer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is a couple years ago, people dug up this, this fake post. And, uh, in that post, this fake job post under expectations, it listed know how to unplug things, bonus points, if you can throw a bucket of water on the servers too, just in case. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ah. So, yeah, to your point, Morgan,you could like reduce this idea to someone\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> who just is gonna pull the plug if AI gets too powerful, tries to take over the world. Um, other people called this position chief, fall guy, or Chief Scapegoat Officer, which is very funny to me: the idea that like, they’re hiring one person who can absorb all \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">of the blame for whenever anything goes bad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, I’ll just mention a few things to note on this. Uh, it’s actually not a new position, even though it’s kind of being characterized as that OpenAI has had this position in the past. Um, and it actually has a preparedness team, but the people who occupied the position either kept moving into other departments or leaving the company entirely.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s been vacant for a little while, and so they’re hiring a new one. Um, the other thing is that Altman has a history of making really big claims about AI’s power and potential. But critics point to the fact that many of these claims are often just hype. So I will turn it to you all. What do you think, is this a good thing that OpenAI is investing in preparedness or is it more AI doomer hype?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It just seems like right now when AI is getting more and OpenAI specifically is getting more criticized than ever, like they probably want someone for that position before, you know, the 15 or so lawsuits over ChatGPT related deaths happened.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, exactly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. So I, I do feel like, okay, it is, you know, like it’s some foresight, you know, like in all seriousness. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I actually feel like a little bit more comfortable, um, if somebody is thinking about like how to prevent a disaster or mitigate it, or at least have some plan in place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, no, I don’t think it’s like doomsday, like I don’t think it’s over the top to think about, like, getting somebody in the position who could give us some steps to follow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s probably better than not having someone thinking \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> about it when you look at the alternative. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, I think this is less of a kill switch engineer and more of a, uh, oh, how do we not get sued again, kind of, kind of position, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. Does this make you feel more concerned that they are identifying these potentially huge, sort of like, world changing threats or do you see this as, okay, this is a marketing play, essentially?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think I’m definitely terrified that they’re already identifying those positions. It almost seems like it’s both and right, because it seems like they’re doing that too, because they know something bad will happen. But also it seems like they’re trying to cover their bases and protect the company. So it’s hard to say that even if we had, if this position gets filled, is it actually gonna protect us? Who knows? Hard to say, so that’s fair.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I, I feel like I’m on the side of the marketing hype because mm-hmm. Who posts a job and then gets on X and they’re like, Hey, by the way, we’re doing this thing. Look at us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re so ahead of it. Right. We’re, you know, like, think kindly of us or think that we are, you know, thinking of you, the public, when it’s really like, you know, wanting a pat on the back. I feel like that’s….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm. yeah,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> ….They’re drawing attention to like, you know, they’re doing good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It, it feels calculated for sure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Based on the story that you brought us on, OpenAI hiring the head of Preparedness, what is your prediction for this year, Chris E.?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so my prediction for 2026 is that we will not see a doomsday scenario with AI this year. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hopefully\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s my prediction. You know, I could be wrong, but instead I think that AI hype will actually start to peter out and we will see the first ripples of a sort of deflating bubble.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, a lot of experts have already pointed out how shaky the actual business case is for AI companies. There’s very little actual return on all the investment, and yet we’ve staked this huge chunk of our economy on the idea that this technology will just keep growing and keep getting better and better. Um, so I think maybe the real head of preparedness should be figuring out how to save our economy when AI doesn’t keep improving.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oof. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Agreed\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s why they’ll get paid $555K a year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sign me up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, team, what do we think? Uh, open eyes, head of preparedness. The AI bubble popping. Do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll save it. I’ll keep an eye on it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I’m gonna also save it. I think this is important to keep an eye on. We don’t know what’s gonna happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think we should save it. Yeah. I think this is a very Close All Tabs, uh, kind of thing. It’s, I, we joke about how often we have to cover AI on the show, it’s like, oh my God, another AI story. But also each one brings a new horror and I think it is worth diving into.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> True.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A new flavor of horror.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. We’re saving OpenAI, uh, head of preparedness, and maybe the bubble popping. That’s a save. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I regret to inform you all that I also have an AI related story for you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh no!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so I am up next and, uh, buckle up. We’re gonna talk about the world RAM shortage, uh, and why I still can’t play Oblivion, Remastered. So if there are any electronic devices on your wishlist for this year, buy them now. Buy them right now because I bought a Steam Deck on Black Friday, after agonizing over it for literally years because I can’t make decisions about big purchases very easily. So I have barely been outside during my break. I have developed a callous on my thumb from playing Hades II. I’m having a great time, right? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Steam Deck annual winter seal rolls around and I’m filling up my cart. There are great deals. And then I realize, oh, I’m gonna run outta space. And so I ran to Google and searched, uh, best micro SD card for Steam Deck Reddit, uh, as you do, you know, gotta slap on the Reddit. And then I fell down this rabbit hole of panicked posts about the global memory storage shortage, uh, thanks to the AI industry.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Shocking to no one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Shocking to no one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The AI industry is using resources.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So AI data centers need like an obscene amount of memory chips called RAM, uh, random access memory. And these are the chips that let your laptop like, open multiple programs, uh, without crashing or gaming systems and consoles to run games without lagging. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so it’s like, temporary memory at at its most basic. Um, data centers need a lot of RAM and along with graphics cards.They need both of these, uh, technologies to train and operate AI models 24/7. One data center’s ram, uh, capacity can power something like a million laptops all at once. And AI companies right now are buying up the world supply of ram. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what does this have to do with storage? Let me tell you. According to TechRadar, there are three main players that control the whole global market of memory chip production, um, SK Hynix, Samsung, and Micron.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so these giants are also producers of flash memory and like, that’s like the static, like, kind of like a file cabinet, you know. It’s just like a space to dump your files. It’s like SD cards, external hard drives, USB, flash drives, um, all that. So they’re making both, right? They’re making RAM, they’re making the flash memory. They got their hands on everything. And because of the AI boom, these memory chip producers are shifting to producing more RAM, um, specifically for large scale AI centers. And because of this, they’re making less flash memory products and also making less products for consumers in general. They’re, like, deprioritizing consumer production in order to meet the demand for enterprise companies, which make a lot more money. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These memory chip companies are expanding their production, but they’re gonna hit a wall, uh, very quickly in the next year. And so that means that anything electronic is going to skyrocket price-wise: laptops, TVs, consoles. Like, even if you build a PC from scratch, each individual part that you’re buying is going to be more expensive because the major players that create both kinds of memory products are shifting to cater to AI data centers.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, let, let me, let me get this straight, Morgan. Um, you’re saying that it’s fiscally responsible for me to buy a Switch 2 this week?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Definitely.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Genuinely, yes. It’s not just the tariffs that are driving up prices. It turns out it goes way, way deeper than that.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So amazing how one thing just affects everything, everything else down the line. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Everything.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’s wild is that, um, Trend Force did this whole, uh, report on the, the future of consumer electronics, and they predicted that smartphone and laptop RAM will actually decrease over time because of the shortage.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so for example, my 2-year-old iPhone has 8 gigabytes of RAM, and the newest ones go as high as like 12. But because of the shortage, uh, smartphones might actually start at 4 gigabytes, which is what iPhones ran on in like 2017 when like running Snapchat and YouTube at the same time made your phone hot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hmm. So you’re saying we’re, we’re now in a place where smartphones are going to become dumber again? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s our future.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, soon you won’t be able to run, uh, YouTube and scroll at the same time on your phone, um, if you don’t have enough RAM. Personally I’m annoyed because I really want to play Oblivion Remastered on my Steam Deck because I have discovered the joy of gaming while lying down. And I can’t do that because I don’t have enough space.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to the team, Morgan\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I know.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dreams deferred. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Does this just mean that we’re gonna have to keep buying new electronics all the time because of all the…If they’re making less and less storage or RAM space, like yeah, what does that mean for us as consumers? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s true. We, we used to be able to, the idea of future proofing your purchases, right. You buy something that’s like, good enough to last you for a long time.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But now if the stuff you’re buying is getting worse and worse, uh, it’s, it feels like that’s a cycle you don’t want to get into.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. I mean, I think this shortage, uh, and the conversation we’re having is kind of like a, a precursor. It’s a little preview of what the future of consuming could look like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For sure. So Morgan, do you have a prediction for 2026?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, I don’t know if this is a prediction for 2026, so much as like for the future in general, but I do wonder if games are gonna get smaller, um, because it’s just gonna be really expensive to keep equipping memory if memory is now a precious resource. Also this is less of a prediction and more of a hope, but I really hope that, uh, physical copies of games become more of a thing again. I really miss the days of trading DS cartridges with my siblings, and I think that was really sweet. We should bring that back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A hundred percent. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sounds fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll swap DS cartridges with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you. If we can ever get them back,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m sure, you know, I’m sure we’ll find out like right as this episode airs that we actually can’t make DS cartridges anymore because we don’t have the storage for them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Turns out AI now needs DS cartridges to run. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>All: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So my question for all of you, um, now that we’ve discussed the global memory shortage and my inability to keep buying games that I won’t play, uh, is do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think this is gonna roll into a bigger thing.I think save,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah. I, I would say let’s, let’s save it. it feels like this is gonna change consumer electronics going forward. It’s a big deal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, I’ll say save too. What do you think Morgan?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Uh, I wanna save it because I’m annoyed. This is my personal gripe now. Um, and I really want to eventually play Oblivion, Remastered, but I think I’ll have to delete like two games to make room for it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. We’re saving. So, so far we’ve got two saves. We’re stacking our slate for 2026.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So now I have a really wild story for you guys. Um,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wait, wait. I’m so sorry, Maya. We legally have to take a quick break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, fine. We’ll get back to it after the break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, we’re back. Maya, it is finally your turn. What did you bring us today? What was the story that has haunted you throughout our break,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. So when I say the phrase AI artists, what do you guys think of?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think of nonsensical Christmas music lyrics.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think of, uh, it’s always like some guy on Twitter who’s like, Ugh, look at my art that I made using ChatGPT or Gemini or Midjourney. And it’s like, dude, you just typed words. You didn’t make that art.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think of like an imaginary artist creating AI art or something? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, yeah. So AI artists are actually online figures who look like real musicians or actresses, but are actually completely created by AI. So they’re not real humans, they are fake. So in 2025 there were a few AI artists generated. One of them was AI artist, Xania Monet, who’s an R&B artist, and she was actually created by Telisha “Nikki” Jones, who’s a poet. And I have a clip of her that I’ll play right now for you\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Xania Monet in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just want to take a moment to say thank you for the love, the support, the videos… \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, I did not like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So it’s really creepy. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks. I hate it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, thanks. I hate it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t need that from her. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. Um, so it’s really, really creepy because she sounds real. She doesn’t look that real, but she does sound real. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And just to clarify, Maya, that was the AI voice that we were hearing right there, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. That was the AI voice of Xania Monet. Um, and so she actually charted on Spotify last year, 2025. Um, and she got a multimillion dollar deal as well, which is just wild. And she’s not real. She’s completely fake. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So also in 2025, there was an artist that was created who was actually an AI actress, and her name is Tilly Norwood. And she was created by former actor Eline Van Der Velden. And now there’s a whole new studio called Tilly-verse to help expand Tilly Norwood. Um, I actually have a clip from an interview with Tilly Norwood, um, on a podcast that we’ll play right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Tilly Norwood in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, I’m Tilly Norwood, the world’s first AI actor. Delighted to meet you. I’m so excited to be on Good Morning Britain. I may look real but there is no need to be afraid of me. I am just here to spice up entertainment and tell stories in a new way. I hope you’ll be seeing more of me.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is shades of “Black Mirror.” I don’t know. I have mixed feelings about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But yeah, so both of those are both AI generated. So we have, um, Xania Monet, who’s the R&B artist who got the multimillion dollar deal, who you first heard from, and then there’s Tilly Norwood. Um, but I wanted to ask all of you, like, first of all, for Xania, do you feel like is it’s ethical to actually sign them to record deals, AI artists? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well that, that is my question and maybe, maybe you can share a little bit on this, Maya, but like, what does it mean to sign an AI artist to a record deal? Like who is signing, who is signing on the dotted line? You know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, so I actually had to look this up because I also was confused. Um, so it looks like Telisha “Nikki” Jones, who is the poet that actually created her, is the one who gets the money from the record deal. Um, and apparently Telisha Jones also writes the lyrics for Xania Monet. Um, so I think that’s how she can kind of make the case that she should be the one to get the money, I guess, for the deal. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That makes sense to me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This reminds me of, do you guys know Lil Miquela?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> No. Who’s that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so she is a CGI influencer, or, or I guess her whole thing was being a virtual influencer and she claimed to be AI like back in 2016. But in reality it was just like CGI and like motion capture. Um, and she’s created by this like, marketing team.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, wait, let me see ifI can find a video for you. It’s so weird. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Lil Miquela in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Starting this year, I’m committed to making choices that show I care for the planet and sustaining yourself is just as important. That’s why I rely on Liquid IV for self-care. It keeps me feeing good so I can look and do good. That’s the energy I’m bringing into ….\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so that’s Lil Miquela. Um, and her whole thing is being like a CGI influencer, but from what I understand, it’s like a person in a motion capture suit underneath. And they say that they use AI for like digital rendering, but it’s like a person tracking. Um, and like it’s a person’s voice allegedly. Um, and there’s like a marketing team behind her. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it reminded me of that when you mentioned this, but like that was what we just watched was like a Liquid IV ad. And so this it, the CGI influencer has been used to market and like get brand deals for years since 2016. And then it has gotten canceled a couple times because, uh, at one point, I think this year she made a video where she was like, I have leukemia.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it was part…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my gosh!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …of a campaign to like raise money for leukemia research, where I think like bone marrow donations. Uh, people have been like weirded out by her for the last decade.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I feel like the AI actresses that you’re talking about, Maya, or like the, was it Xania Monet? feels like the next step of this where they’ve removed the actual people who are running this virtual girl’s social pages and it’s just generated now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. No, that’s super interesting.That you bring that up. So apparently for Tilly-verse, which is the studio that’s gonna help expand Tilly Norwood, who is the AI actress, they’re claiming that they’re actually gonna be creating jobs. So they would have somebody who’s like running the social media or writing the scripts and the dialogue and things like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But my question is, is like, well, what happens when they can just train AI to do that? So maybe they’ll hire human workers, right? But then eventually they’ll just get replaced as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well they said they’re creating jobs, but they didn’t say if they were human jobs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right? They said…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It could be AI jobs\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They claimed that it would be like for humans, but they could easily, like Morgan was saying, with what happened to Lil Miquela that like, they could just be replaced by AI as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And my thing is like, I don’t like being fooled, and so there’s a little bit of comfort already knowing the people behind these people. But like, I worry about down the road when somebody first encounters an AI actress or an ar- AI musician, and we don’t even talk about the person behind it. I’m like, who is this for? Like, okay,these advances are made in order so that humans can go do things that they want to do. Like I think we enjoy making, um, art and acting and songs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMaya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So like who is it for?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And like, what are we enjoying exactly.too?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right? What are we enjoying? Exactly. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like, do, do we just enjoy the thing we see on the screen? Or do we enjoy the idea that there’s intention and artistic endeavor behind it? This also makes me think like in some ways, yes, this is slightly, it’s dystopian and slightly terrifying, but in, in another way, it’s not that different from like, our current sort of model of famous Hollywood actors/celebrity culture.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘Cause we already have humans who are kind of fake. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they are like industries of themselves. They have teams behind them, even though we, we see them as, as represented as a single person. But, you know, you think of like any Hollywood A-lister and they’re gonna have an operational team. They’re gonna have a marketing team. They’re gonna have, you know, like probably hundreds of people employed, keeping this one person’s image going. So,like, in a weird way, it’s kind of like reducing that to, its like core-most essence. Of like, we already have fake people in celebrity culture, and this is like the fakest version of that, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. We’re already seeing just their persona riight. What they want us to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s no, there’s no facade about it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re just like, this is fake.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. That’s interesting. Well, I also think about just, I don’t know, maybe people are already, celebrities are already perpetuating these tropes anyways, but I’m just thinking about the tropes that these AI artists might be perpetuating.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So like, Xania Monet being a Black R&B artist. And then Tilly Norwood is this white woman and they said that they are depicting a white woman, right, because it’s not real. Um, but their creators already said like, oh, this is how we want them to be presented. Tilly Norwood should kind of come across as this like, girl next door.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right? Um, so yeah. I’m just wondering the types of tropes that they would already, that would, they would be perpetuating about like Black and brown artists, about women. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They are kind of by default caricatures, right? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because they’re not real people. It’s interesting. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks. I hate it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks. I hate it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. Maya, Xania Monet and Tilly Norwood. What is your prediction for the next year uh, based on what you brought us?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So I do feel that these AI artists will make it harder for human artists, um, to be able to book roles or even get record deals because now it seems like anyone can just make a generated artist. I also feel like with the Tilly-verse, which is the studio that’s helping expand Tilly Norwood, um, that they’ll eventually just replace the human workers, that they claim they’re gonna be hiring, with AI.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like I feel like that could happen like within the year, um, or everything will pop and these AI will crash, but I don’t think that’s gonna happen within this year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Xania Monet will be the first victim of the AI bubble popping. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>All: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’ll be the first to cover it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Okay. Team thoughts. Should we save AI artists for a close all tabs deep dive, or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I gotta be honest. I’m ready to scroll past these AI artists. I don’t want them in my feed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I agree. But I wanna save this because I do feel like I wanna do some kind of story on this later. So I’m gonna say save. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s fair.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m gonna say scroll. I feel like it’s, it’s interesting because it’s new right now, but I’m just like meh, you know, I’ll see how it shakes out. You know,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah, I, I’m sorry, Maya. I’m scrolling because..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, no.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lil Miquela did it first, and I’m waiting, I’m waiting for a little bit for Lil Miquela to feud with one of these fakers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh my God, God. Lil Miquela off the top rope.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well then we gotta save it ‘cause we gotta follow their feud.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I know. I, I say save if, we’ll, we’ll come back to it if Lil Miquela weighs in on AI artists.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so last story for the day. Chris H what did you bring us?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so I saw this video while I was scrolling Instagram. This user, SeanJaye1988, posted this reel where he stitched together two videos. So one of them was filmed at the end of 2024 where he was asking himself questions. And the second video was filmed at the end of 2025 when he answered those questions posed by his former self.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Instagram User SeanJaye1988 in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Did you lose weight?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: 15 lbs, Shawty!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Are you still driving that car?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Hell naw! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Because that m-r is on like 200,000 miles.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: That m—r said “poof!”\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Did you start your podcast?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Absolutely not..\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so these questions were around like his progress on goals that he set for himself. Like, did you move? Are you still at the same job? And at the end of this, he asked himself, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Instagram User SeanJaye1988 in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Are you okay? Do you love yourself?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are you okay? Do you love yourself? And it seemed as if he had very much not been okay in 2024, so that’s why his former self was checking in about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in response, the 2025 version, Sean blew air out of his lips and then press them together and turned to the side and his eyes look kind of glassy. And then he finally was like, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Instagram User SeanJaye1988 in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Yes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Are you making sure you’re okay?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: I pray that you are. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: I am. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wow. That was really sweet.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But what I think is really interesting about the video is that, you know, he says yes, but you know, it’s something that he’s looks like he’s still working on, you know? Um, but what I really, um, enjoyed about this is because like, yeah, it’s, you know, somebody posting something that could seem performative. I’m processing this real time thing, you know, like in public, on social media. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’ve seen different versions of like this sort of thing, asking your future self questions. But like, this one had a lot of sincerity and a lot of emotionality and a rare, um, for me, seen moment of vulnerability from a man online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, and so I feel like it’s a counter to this article that came out at the beginning of 2025, from the New York Times, talking about how big the Manosphere was and how like, if you think that it’s only on the fringes, you’re you’re wrong because it’s, it’s right here. It’s Earth. The manosphere is Earth.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s all of this like misogyny and toxic masculinity in American culture and politics. It’s, it’s, it’s right here. Um, so this is one that I, I really thought, you know, was interesting and I would love to see more of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, down with the manosphere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What, what would we call this instead of the, the manosphere?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, the emotion…emotion bonanza\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the feelingsphere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Feelingsphere! I like feelingsphere. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I looked at, uh, some other post on this guy’s account and they all seem very rooted in being vulnerable out loud. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, he’s got posts about his weight. It’s, you know, one where he’s at, uh, a wedding and somehow he got the mic. I think he’s in the wedding party and, and so these real life moments that he is sharing, you know. And I think of that in light of all the podcasters and male bloggers who focus on like sports and gambling and rah-rah red-blooded American male… Like, you know, I hope this guy does start a podcast, um, where he gets like more vulnerable and encourages other guys to, um, kind of beat back this, you know, masculinity that is actually a backlash to feminism, the rise of feminism.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s like you said, I, I was really drawn to the authenticity in this. The fact that it… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Same \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …did not, it could have felt so performative and I can imagine what that version of the video looks like and this, it really felt like he was having a conversation earnestly with, with his past self. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I, I think that’s hard to do online. Uh, I thought it was really touching.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I thought so too. And I also liked that it felt like a live vision board in a way, or like or not even a vision board.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> More so like, here’s what happened, here’s what we hope where we’re gonna happen, and then we get to see like what actually ended up happening for him 2025.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. There are a lot of things where, you know, people like sit down and like do tactile things \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And pull out and like pen and paper and cut up magazines. But this one is like, hey, if you’re already operating, you know, in the online sphere, if you’ve already got your phone in your hand all the time, like this is like a very, um, low lift way for you to just like document what were the things that were on my mind…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …and like, check in later, so long as you can find the video. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right, right, right. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You gotta be organized.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. You know, I, not to be cynical, but when you first sent this video, I was like, oh God, it’s another performative male thing. Like, I don’t know if you remember this, like last year was the year of performative male contests where like guys would put on their baggiest jeans and their, like all their labubus hooked onto it, bring their tote bags and their flowers and their like little Bell Hooks back, like copies to the park and compete as the most performative male.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it was kind of like a funny commentary on like how, uh, you know, guys were trying to not be the manosphere guy, like this like soft kind of person who is sensitive and listens to women and reads feminist material. Um, but then, you know, at the core they’re still kind of like players, whatever. And I was expecting that kind of thing, but it was nice to see something more authentic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, I don’t know, maybe that’s me. I’m too cynical about the internet, but I hope, I hope this kind of continues.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Lemme ask a question. Just because I am the only, I guess, male representative in this space, uh, uh, right now on our team.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, that we, you have the manosphere on one side, right? Uh, we all know what that is: the Joe Rogans of the world and the Andrew Tates and all of that. Um, and then you talk about the like performative mail and how that was really a big thing last year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, I just wonder like not to be like a male apologist, but like what are men supposed to do? What space are they supposed to occupy? You know, because like, I think you could imagine some men trying to sort of distance themselves from the manosphere stuff and then being called performative.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, and so like what, what is the right, uh, in your opinion in 2026, what, what does that look like? Like what is an authentic, like, non-toxic man supposed to present as and supposed to be in the world? Um, that’s not performative.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, when the whole performative male contests, uh, you know, were, when they, those were all taking off across the country. There were so many think pieces about like, how do men act online? Like, oh no. Um, and I think those contests were really like a commentary on how the manosphere and this like archetype of like this, the TikTok soft boy, it’s really like a horseshoe. You know, they’re, they’re a lot closer than you think because they’re performing, uh, they’re performing being woke, but like in public, but then in secret and or in private still mistreating women. And so I think really it’s just being normal to woman online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, it’s the toxic traits are still there at the core.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. Just they’re like wrapped up in a tote bag and a labubu.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>All:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Just being normal\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Be genuine.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s, it’s possible guys. It’s possible. Just be normal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Chris H., I have to know, based on this not performative male, not manosphere content that you just showed us, what is your prediction for 2026?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. I think that this is gonna be a year where more men feel comfortable being vulnerable publicly online…and sincerely, um, like maybe we’ll see more of these, um, checking in with your past self videos, and hopefully all the men who have, um, repressed these emotions, uh, they start leaking out and they get to release them as a healthier method of, um, being instead of like blowing things up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, team, an antidote to the manosphere. Do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I vote to save this because, you know, we’ve been talking about doing something on the manosphere in general, but I kind of like looking at this, what’s beyond the manosphere? How, how might it be rejected in the next year?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I, you know, I am surprising myself because I am on the fence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like, I, I like a good internet trend. I hope that this will take off, but I wanna see it, um, sort of in the background. I want it to happen without it going, Hey, look what men are doing.You know? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I can just like be, I took note of that. That’s neat. More of that, please. Scroll.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Then you’re back in the performative space,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> More labubus.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Although I do wanna see an antidote to the manosphere. I feel like I would scroll past this personally, but I don’t know Morgan, what you think.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, you know, I’ve been scrolling past the manosphere content because I don’t wanna see it. Um, and I don’t wanna platform it. Um, and then this, it’s like, I, I like that it’s happening. I, I think it’s good for humanity but I’m gonna scroll because I don’t wanna make a Not All Men episode. Sorry, Chris.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Crushing. Crushing. I mean, do I need a retort? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, uh, so sorry Chris, we are, Chris E. We are scrolling on men being vulnerable online, but we do want more of it in the world. We do want it, we want it to happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll save it on my, my personal feed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>All:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well guys, thanks for joining me for Save or Scroll.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. I’ll see you in a year.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks Morgan. This was super fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Thanks Morgan. This was a lot of fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right, well, that is it for Save or Scroll. We’re keeping tabs on everything that we did save, so don’t be surprised if one of those stories shows up as a deep dive in your feed. We’ll be back next week with more Close All Tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nClose All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Hambrick is our editor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor, and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends, too. Or even your enemies! Or… frenemies? And if you \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate dot KQED dot org slash podcasts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a holiday installment of Save or Scroll, Morgan and the Close All Tabs team get together to talk over the stories they can’t stop thinking about. From OpenAI’s concerning new job posting, to a major RAM shortage, AI artists on the come up, and an antidote to the Manosphere, they’ve got a lot to chew on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Save or Scroll is our series where we team up with guests for a rapid-fire roundup of internet trends that are filling our feeds right now. At the end of each segment, they’ll decide: is the post just for the group chat, or should we save it for a future episode?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC9668443018\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>Morgan Sung, Host of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Chris Egusa, Senior Editor of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Maya Cueva, Producer of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>Chris Hambrick, Editor of Close All Tabs\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theverge.com/news/850537/sam-altman-openai-head-of-preparedness\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sam Altman is hiring someone to worry about the dangers of AI\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Terrence O’Brien, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Verge\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.businessinsider.com/challenges-of-openai-head-of-preparedness-role-2025-12\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why OpenAI’s $555,000 Head of Preparedness Role May Be Hard to Fill\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Sarah E. Needleman, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Business Insider\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/12/28/nx-s1-5656190/ai-chips-memory-prices-ram\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Memory loss: As AI gobbles up chips, prices for devices may rise\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — John Ruwitch, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NPR\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.techradar.com/pro/why-is-ram-so-expensive-right-now-its-more-complicated-than-you-think\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why is RAM so expensive right now? It’s way more complicated than you think\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Wayne Williams, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TechRadar\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.forbes.com/sites/dougmelville/2025/09/27/al-singer-xania-monet-just-charted-on-billboard-signed-3m-deal-is-this-the-future-of-music/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">AI Singer Xania Monet Just Charted On Billboard, Signed $3 Million Deal. Is This The Future Of Music?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Doug Melville, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forbes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.billboard.com/lists/ai-artists-on-billboard-charts/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How Many AI Artists Have Debuted on Billboard’s Charts?\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Xander Zellner, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Billboard\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/01/style/trump-zuckerberg-masculinity.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The ‘Manosphere’? It’s Planet Earth.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Joseph Bernstein, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/reel/DSvjuMEkj0H/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA%3D%3D\">“2024 self interviewing my 2025 self”\u003c/a> — @seanjaye1988, Instagram Reel\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome back to Close All tabs. We’ve been on a break the last few weeks, refreshing, relaxing, touching grass. In my case, being back on the East Coast for the holidays, touching a lot of snow. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend here at Open. As many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives, except today we aren’t opening any tabs. That’s right, to kick off the new year, we’re back with another episode of Save or Scroll. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, what is Save or Scroll? This is a game we play every now and then on close all tabs. We do a lot of deep dives on the show, but sometimes I come across a story that’s fascinating and wild and I’m dying to talk about it with someone, but there isn’t necessarily enough to do an entire episode about it. Or I do a little digging and realize that there’s a lot more to the story and it’s definitely worth a deep dive. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a very special Save or Scroll because joining me is the rest of the close all tabs team. On today’s episode, we have senior editor Chris Egusa,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa, guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey there!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> producer Maya Cueva,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva, guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hi, Morgan!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and editor Chris Hambrick.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick, guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hello!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So we have all been offline for the last few weeks, and today we’re gonna catch up with a few different tech and internet stories that may have slipped under the radar during the holiday season. And for this episode, each of the four of us has brought one story that we cannot stop thinking about, that’s haunted us throughout our entire holiday break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as a group, we’re gonna decide to Save or Scroll. If we scroll, that means we’ve talked about it, we’re moving on. If we decide to save, that means we’re bookmarking it and we might dive in deeper in a future episode. And based on the stories we brought today, we’re gonna make a few predictions for the new year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You guys ready?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ready. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m ready.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, Chris E, you’re up first. What did you bring us today?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So if you want to get paid $555,000 to stop the AI apocalypse, I have good news. Open AI is hiring for a new position: head of preparedness. So get excited.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a bit ominous.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re all launching your applications right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So on December 27th, we were treated to kind of a late Christmas present from Mr. Sam Altman, CEO of OpenAI, which side note, is actually within a walking distance of where we are recording right now at the KQED studios. But yeah, he posted on X that the company is hiring for a head of preparedness.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What does this mean? You might ask? Here is a little bit of Sam’s post, he said, “We are hiring a head of preparedness. This is a critical role at an important time. Models are improving quickly and are now capable of many great things, but they’re also starting to present some real challenges. The potential impact of models on mental health was something we saw a preview of in 2025. We are also now seeing models get so good at computer security, they’re beginning to find critical vulnerabilities.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So he goes on to say that this person would be responsible for executing the company’s quote preparedness framework, uh, securing AI models for the release of biological capabilities, which, that definitely sounds ominous.Um, and at the end of the post, he warns that it will be a stressful job and that you’ll jump in immediately. So get those resumes ready. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh God. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can I ask a clarifying question?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Please.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Is this basically like they’re hiring someone to pull the plug…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …if it all goes bad?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Great question. And there’ve been some, some online jokes about that as well. Basically, this is a person who is directly responsible for preventing all of the risks posed by all of this ever advancing AI technology.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People are calling it an impossible job because those risks are innumerable and impossible to really predict. Right? And like you mentioned Morgan, immediately, uh, there were jokes about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So some people posted a fake open AI job post from a few years ago that was called, uh, Kill Switch Engineer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is a couple years ago, people dug up this, this fake post. And, uh, in that post, this fake job post under expectations, it listed know how to unplug things, bonus points, if you can throw a bucket of water on the servers too, just in case. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ah. So, yeah, to your point, Morgan,you could like reduce this idea to someone\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> who just is gonna pull the plug if AI gets too powerful, tries to take over the world. Um, other people called this position chief, fall guy, or Chief Scapegoat Officer, which is very funny to me: the idea that like, they’re hiring one person who can absorb all \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">of the blame for whenever anything goes bad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, I’ll just mention a few things to note on this. Uh, it’s actually not a new position, even though it’s kind of being characterized as that OpenAI has had this position in the past. Um, and it actually has a preparedness team, but the people who occupied the position either kept moving into other departments or leaving the company entirely.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s been vacant for a little while, and so they’re hiring a new one. Um, the other thing is that Altman has a history of making really big claims about AI’s power and potential. But critics point to the fact that many of these claims are often just hype. So I will turn it to you all. What do you think, is this a good thing that OpenAI is investing in preparedness or is it more AI doomer hype?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It just seems like right now when AI is getting more and OpenAI specifically is getting more criticized than ever, like they probably want someone for that position before, you know, the 15 or so lawsuits over ChatGPT related deaths happened.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, exactly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. So I, I do feel like, okay, it is, you know, like it’s some foresight, you know, like in all seriousness. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I actually feel like a little bit more comfortable, um, if somebody is thinking about like how to prevent a disaster or mitigate it, or at least have some plan in place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, no, I don’t think it’s like doomsday, like I don’t think it’s over the top to think about, like, getting somebody in the position who could give us some steps to follow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s probably better than not having someone thinking \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> about it when you look at the alternative. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, I think this is less of a kill switch engineer and more of a, uh, oh, how do we not get sued again, kind of, kind of position, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. Does this make you feel more concerned that they are identifying these potentially huge, sort of like, world changing threats or do you see this as, okay, this is a marketing play, essentially?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think I’m definitely terrified that they’re already identifying those positions. It almost seems like it’s both and right, because it seems like they’re doing that too, because they know something bad will happen. But also it seems like they’re trying to cover their bases and protect the company. So it’s hard to say that even if we had, if this position gets filled, is it actually gonna protect us? Who knows? Hard to say, so that’s fair.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I, I feel like I’m on the side of the marketing hype because mm-hmm. Who posts a job and then gets on X and they’re like, Hey, by the way, we’re doing this thing. Look at us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re so ahead of it. Right. We’re, you know, like, think kindly of us or think that we are, you know, thinking of you, the public, when it’s really like, you know, wanting a pat on the back. I feel like that’s….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm. yeah,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> ….They’re drawing attention to like, you know, they’re doing good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It, it feels calculated for sure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Based on the story that you brought us on, OpenAI hiring the head of Preparedness, what is your prediction for this year, Chris E.?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so my prediction for 2026 is that we will not see a doomsday scenario with AI this year. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hopefully\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s my prediction. You know, I could be wrong, but instead I think that AI hype will actually start to peter out and we will see the first ripples of a sort of deflating bubble.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, a lot of experts have already pointed out how shaky the actual business case is for AI companies. There’s very little actual return on all the investment, and yet we’ve staked this huge chunk of our economy on the idea that this technology will just keep growing and keep getting better and better. Um, so I think maybe the real head of preparedness should be figuring out how to save our economy when AI doesn’t keep improving.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oof. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Agreed\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s why they’ll get paid $555K a year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sign me up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, team, what do we think? Uh, open eyes, head of preparedness. The AI bubble popping. Do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll save it. I’ll keep an eye on it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I’m gonna also save it. I think this is important to keep an eye on. We don’t know what’s gonna happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think we should save it. Yeah. I think this is a very Close All Tabs, uh, kind of thing. It’s, I, we joke about how often we have to cover AI on the show, it’s like, oh my God, another AI story. But also each one brings a new horror and I think it is worth diving into.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> True.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A new flavor of horror.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. We’re saving OpenAI, uh, head of preparedness, and maybe the bubble popping. That’s a save. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I regret to inform you all that I also have an AI related story for you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh no!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so I am up next and, uh, buckle up. We’re gonna talk about the world RAM shortage, uh, and why I still can’t play Oblivion, Remastered. So if there are any electronic devices on your wishlist for this year, buy them now. Buy them right now because I bought a Steam Deck on Black Friday, after agonizing over it for literally years because I can’t make decisions about big purchases very easily. So I have barely been outside during my break. I have developed a callous on my thumb from playing Hades II. I’m having a great time, right? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Steam Deck annual winter seal rolls around and I’m filling up my cart. There are great deals. And then I realize, oh, I’m gonna run outta space. And so I ran to Google and searched, uh, best micro SD card for Steam Deck Reddit, uh, as you do, you know, gotta slap on the Reddit. And then I fell down this rabbit hole of panicked posts about the global memory storage shortage, uh, thanks to the AI industry.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Shocking to no one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Shocking to no one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The AI industry is using resources.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So AI data centers need like an obscene amount of memory chips called RAM, uh, random access memory. And these are the chips that let your laptop like, open multiple programs, uh, without crashing or gaming systems and consoles to run games without lagging. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so it’s like, temporary memory at at its most basic. Um, data centers need a lot of RAM and along with graphics cards.They need both of these, uh, technologies to train and operate AI models 24/7. One data center’s ram, uh, capacity can power something like a million laptops all at once. And AI companies right now are buying up the world supply of ram. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what does this have to do with storage? Let me tell you. According to TechRadar, there are three main players that control the whole global market of memory chip production, um, SK Hynix, Samsung, and Micron.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so these giants are also producers of flash memory and like, that’s like the static, like, kind of like a file cabinet, you know. It’s just like a space to dump your files. It’s like SD cards, external hard drives, USB, flash drives, um, all that. So they’re making both, right? They’re making RAM, they’re making the flash memory. They got their hands on everything. And because of the AI boom, these memory chip producers are shifting to producing more RAM, um, specifically for large scale AI centers. And because of this, they’re making less flash memory products and also making less products for consumers in general. They’re, like, deprioritizing consumer production in order to meet the demand for enterprise companies, which make a lot more money. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These memory chip companies are expanding their production, but they’re gonna hit a wall, uh, very quickly in the next year. And so that means that anything electronic is going to skyrocket price-wise: laptops, TVs, consoles. Like, even if you build a PC from scratch, each individual part that you’re buying is going to be more expensive because the major players that create both kinds of memory products are shifting to cater to AI data centers.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, let, let me, let me get this straight, Morgan. Um, you’re saying that it’s fiscally responsible for me to buy a Switch 2 this week?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Definitely.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Genuinely, yes. It’s not just the tariffs that are driving up prices. It turns out it goes way, way deeper than that.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So amazing how one thing just affects everything, everything else down the line. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Everything.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’s wild is that, um, Trend Force did this whole, uh, report on the, the future of consumer electronics, and they predicted that smartphone and laptop RAM will actually decrease over time because of the shortage.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, so for example, my 2-year-old iPhone has 8 gigabytes of RAM, and the newest ones go as high as like 12. But because of the shortage, uh, smartphones might actually start at 4 gigabytes, which is what iPhones ran on in like 2017 when like running Snapchat and YouTube at the same time made your phone hot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hmm. So you’re saying we’re, we’re now in a place where smartphones are going to become dumber again? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s our future.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, soon you won’t be able to run, uh, YouTube and scroll at the same time on your phone, um, if you don’t have enough RAM. Personally I’m annoyed because I really want to play Oblivion Remastered on my Steam Deck because I have discovered the joy of gaming while lying down. And I can’t do that because I don’t have enough space.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to the team, Morgan\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I know.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dreams deferred. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Does this just mean that we’re gonna have to keep buying new electronics all the time because of all the…If they’re making less and less storage or RAM space, like yeah, what does that mean for us as consumers? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s true. We, we used to be able to, the idea of future proofing your purchases, right. You buy something that’s like, good enough to last you for a long time.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But now if the stuff you’re buying is getting worse and worse, uh, it’s, it feels like that’s a cycle you don’t want to get into.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. I mean, I think this shortage, uh, and the conversation we’re having is kind of like a, a precursor. It’s a little preview of what the future of consuming could look like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For sure. So Morgan, do you have a prediction for 2026?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, I don’t know if this is a prediction for 2026, so much as like for the future in general, but I do wonder if games are gonna get smaller, um, because it’s just gonna be really expensive to keep equipping memory if memory is now a precious resource. Also this is less of a prediction and more of a hope, but I really hope that, uh, physical copies of games become more of a thing again. I really miss the days of trading DS cartridges with my siblings, and I think that was really sweet. We should bring that back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A hundred percent. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sounds fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll swap DS cartridges with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you. If we can ever get them back,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m sure, you know, I’m sure we’ll find out like right as this episode airs that we actually can’t make DS cartridges anymore because we don’t have the storage for them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Turns out AI now needs DS cartridges to run. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>All: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So my question for all of you, um, now that we’ve discussed the global memory shortage and my inability to keep buying games that I won’t play, uh, is do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think this is gonna roll into a bigger thing.I think save,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah. I, I would say let’s, let’s save it. it feels like this is gonna change consumer electronics going forward. It’s a big deal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, I’ll say save too. What do you think Morgan?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Uh, I wanna save it because I’m annoyed. This is my personal gripe now. Um, and I really want to eventually play Oblivion, Remastered, but I think I’ll have to delete like two games to make room for it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. We’re saving. So, so far we’ve got two saves. We’re stacking our slate for 2026.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So now I have a really wild story for you guys. Um,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wait, wait. I’m so sorry, Maya. We legally have to take a quick break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, fine. We’ll get back to it after the break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, we’re back. Maya, it is finally your turn. What did you bring us today? What was the story that has haunted you throughout our break,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. So when I say the phrase AI artists, what do you guys think of?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think of nonsensical Christmas music lyrics.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think of, uh, it’s always like some guy on Twitter who’s like, Ugh, look at my art that I made using ChatGPT or Gemini or Midjourney. And it’s like, dude, you just typed words. You didn’t make that art.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think of like an imaginary artist creating AI art or something? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, yeah. So AI artists are actually online figures who look like real musicians or actresses, but are actually completely created by AI. So they’re not real humans, they are fake. So in 2025 there were a few AI artists generated. One of them was AI artist, Xania Monet, who’s an R&B artist, and she was actually created by Telisha “Nikki” Jones, who’s a poet. And I have a clip of her that I’ll play right now for you\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Xania Monet in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I just want to take a moment to say thank you for the love, the support, the videos… \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, I did not like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So it’s really creepy. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks. I hate it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, thanks. I hate it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t need that from her. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. Um, so it’s really, really creepy because she sounds real. She doesn’t look that real, but she does sound real. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And just to clarify, Maya, that was the AI voice that we were hearing right there, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. That was the AI voice of Xania Monet. Um, and so she actually charted on Spotify last year, 2025. Um, and she got a multimillion dollar deal as well, which is just wild. And she’s not real. She’s completely fake. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So also in 2025, there was an artist that was created who was actually an AI actress, and her name is Tilly Norwood. And she was created by former actor Eline Van Der Velden. And now there’s a whole new studio called Tilly-verse to help expand Tilly Norwood. Um, I actually have a clip from an interview with Tilly Norwood, um, on a podcast that we’ll play right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Tilly Norwood in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, I’m Tilly Norwood, the world’s first AI actor. Delighted to meet you. I’m so excited to be on Good Morning Britain. I may look real but there is no need to be afraid of me. I am just here to spice up entertainment and tell stories in a new way. I hope you’ll be seeing more of me.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is shades of “Black Mirror.” I don’t know. I have mixed feelings about this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But yeah, so both of those are both AI generated. So we have, um, Xania Monet, who’s the R&B artist who got the multimillion dollar deal, who you first heard from, and then there’s Tilly Norwood. Um, but I wanted to ask all of you, like, first of all, for Xania, do you feel like is it’s ethical to actually sign them to record deals, AI artists? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well that, that is my question and maybe, maybe you can share a little bit on this, Maya, but like, what does it mean to sign an AI artist to a record deal? Like who is signing, who is signing on the dotted line? You know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, so I actually had to look this up because I also was confused. Um, so it looks like Telisha “Nikki” Jones, who is the poet that actually created her, is the one who gets the money from the record deal. Um, and apparently Telisha Jones also writes the lyrics for Xania Monet. Um, so I think that’s how she can kind of make the case that she should be the one to get the money, I guess, for the deal. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That makes sense to me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This reminds me of, do you guys know Lil Miquela?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> No. Who’s that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so she is a CGI influencer, or, or I guess her whole thing was being a virtual influencer and she claimed to be AI like back in 2016. But in reality it was just like CGI and like motion capture. Um, and she’s created by this like, marketing team.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, wait, let me see ifI can find a video for you. It’s so weird. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Lil Miquela in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Starting this year, I’m committed to making choices that show I care for the planet and sustaining yourself is just as important. That’s why I rely on Liquid IV for self-care. It keeps me feeing good so I can look and do good. That’s the energy I’m bringing into ….\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so that’s Lil Miquela. Um, and her whole thing is being like a CGI influencer, but from what I understand, it’s like a person in a motion capture suit underneath. And they say that they use AI for like digital rendering, but it’s like a person tracking. Um, and like it’s a person’s voice allegedly. Um, and there’s like a marketing team behind her. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it reminded me of that when you mentioned this, but like that was what we just watched was like a Liquid IV ad. And so this it, the CGI influencer has been used to market and like get brand deals for years since 2016. And then it has gotten canceled a couple times because, uh, at one point, I think this year she made a video where she was like, I have leukemia.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it was part…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my gosh!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …of a campaign to like raise money for leukemia research, where I think like bone marrow donations. Uh, people have been like weirded out by her for the last decade.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I feel like the AI actresses that you’re talking about, Maya, or like the, was it Xania Monet? feels like the next step of this where they’ve removed the actual people who are running this virtual girl’s social pages and it’s just generated now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. No, that’s super interesting.That you bring that up. So apparently for Tilly-verse, which is the studio that’s gonna help expand Tilly Norwood, who is the AI actress, they’re claiming that they’re actually gonna be creating jobs. So they would have somebody who’s like running the social media or writing the scripts and the dialogue and things like that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But my question is, is like, well, what happens when they can just train AI to do that? So maybe they’ll hire human workers, right? But then eventually they’ll just get replaced as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well they said they’re creating jobs, but they didn’t say if they were human jobs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right? They said…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It could be AI jobs\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They claimed that it would be like for humans, but they could easily, like Morgan was saying, with what happened to Lil Miquela that like, they could just be replaced by AI as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And my thing is like, I don’t like being fooled, and so there’s a little bit of comfort already knowing the people behind these people. But like, I worry about down the road when somebody first encounters an AI actress or an ar- AI musician, and we don’t even talk about the person behind it. I’m like, who is this for? Like, okay,these advances are made in order so that humans can go do things that they want to do. Like I think we enjoy making, um, art and acting and songs. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nMaya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So like who is it for?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And like, what are we enjoying exactly.too?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right? What are we enjoying? Exactly. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like, do, do we just enjoy the thing we see on the screen? Or do we enjoy the idea that there’s intention and artistic endeavor behind it? This also makes me think like in some ways, yes, this is slightly, it’s dystopian and slightly terrifying, but in, in another way, it’s not that different from like, our current sort of model of famous Hollywood actors/celebrity culture.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘Cause we already have humans who are kind of fake. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they are like industries of themselves. They have teams behind them, even though we, we see them as, as represented as a single person. But, you know, you think of like any Hollywood A-lister and they’re gonna have an operational team. They’re gonna have a marketing team. They’re gonna have, you know, like probably hundreds of people employed, keeping this one person’s image going. So,like, in a weird way, it’s kind of like reducing that to, its like core-most essence. Of like, we already have fake people in celebrity culture, and this is like the fakest version of that, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. We’re already seeing just their persona riight. What they want us to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s no, there’s no facade about it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re just like, this is fake.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. That’s interesting. Well, I also think about just, I don’t know, maybe people are already, celebrities are already perpetuating these tropes anyways, but I’m just thinking about the tropes that these AI artists might be perpetuating.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So like, Xania Monet being a Black R&B artist. And then Tilly Norwood is this white woman and they said that they are depicting a white woman, right, because it’s not real. Um, but their creators already said like, oh, this is how we want them to be presented. Tilly Norwood should kind of come across as this like, girl next door.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right? Um, so yeah. I’m just wondering the types of tropes that they would already, that would, they would be perpetuating about like Black and brown artists, about women. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They are kind of by default caricatures, right? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because they’re not real people. It’s interesting. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks. I hate it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks. I hate it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. Maya, Xania Monet and Tilly Norwood. What is your prediction for the next year uh, based on what you brought us?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So I do feel that these AI artists will make it harder for human artists, um, to be able to book roles or even get record deals because now it seems like anyone can just make a generated artist. I also feel like with the Tilly-verse, which is the studio that’s helping expand Tilly Norwood, um, that they’ll eventually just replace the human workers, that they claim they’re gonna be hiring, with AI.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like I feel like that could happen like within the year, um, or everything will pop and these AI will crash, but I don’t think that’s gonna happen within this year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Xania Monet will be the first victim of the AI bubble popping. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>All: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’ll be the first to cover it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Okay. Team thoughts. Should we save AI artists for a close all tabs deep dive, or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I gotta be honest. I’m ready to scroll past these AI artists. I don’t want them in my feed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I agree. But I wanna save this because I do feel like I wanna do some kind of story on this later. So I’m gonna say save. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s fair.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m gonna say scroll. I feel like it’s, it’s interesting because it’s new right now, but I’m just like meh, you know, I’ll see how it shakes out. You know,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> yeah, I, I’m sorry, Maya. I’m scrolling because..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, no.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lil Miquela did it first, and I’m waiting, I’m waiting for a little bit for Lil Miquela to feud with one of these fakers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh my God, God. Lil Miquela off the top rope.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well then we gotta save it ‘cause we gotta follow their feud.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I know. I, I say save if, we’ll, we’ll come back to it if Lil Miquela weighs in on AI artists.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so last story for the day. Chris H what did you bring us?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, so I saw this video while I was scrolling Instagram. This user, SeanJaye1988, posted this reel where he stitched together two videos. So one of them was filmed at the end of 2024 where he was asking himself questions. And the second video was filmed at the end of 2025 when he answered those questions posed by his former self.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Instagram User SeanJaye1988 in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Did you lose weight?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: 15 lbs, Shawty!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Are you still driving that car?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Hell naw! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Because that m-r is on like 200,000 miles.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: That m—r said “poof!”\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Did you start your podcast?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Absolutely not..\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so these questions were around like his progress on goals that he set for himself. Like, did you move? Are you still at the same job? And at the end of this, he asked himself, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Instagram User SeanJaye1988 in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Are you okay? Do you love yourself?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are you okay? Do you love yourself? And it seemed as if he had very much not been okay in 2024, so that’s why his former self was checking in about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in response, the 2025 version, Sean blew air out of his lips and then press them together and turned to the side and his eyes look kind of glassy. And then he finally was like, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Instagram User SeanJaye1988 in clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Yes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: Are you making sure you’re okay?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: Yeah\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2024 Sean: I pray that you are. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2025 Sean: I am. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wow. That was really sweet.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But what I think is really interesting about the video is that, you know, he says yes, but you know, it’s something that he’s looks like he’s still working on, you know? Um, but what I really, um, enjoyed about this is because like, yeah, it’s, you know, somebody posting something that could seem performative. I’m processing this real time thing, you know, like in public, on social media. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’ve seen different versions of like this sort of thing, asking your future self questions. But like, this one had a lot of sincerity and a lot of emotionality and a rare, um, for me, seen moment of vulnerability from a man online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, and so I feel like it’s a counter to this article that came out at the beginning of 2025, from the New York Times, talking about how big the Manosphere was and how like, if you think that it’s only on the fringes, you’re you’re wrong because it’s, it’s right here. It’s Earth. The manosphere is Earth.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s all of this like misogyny and toxic masculinity in American culture and politics. It’s, it’s, it’s right here. Um, so this is one that I, I really thought, you know, was interesting and I would love to see more of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, down with the manosphere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What, what would we call this instead of the, the manosphere?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, the emotion…emotion bonanza\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the feelingsphere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Feelingsphere! I like feelingsphere. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I looked at, uh, some other post on this guy’s account and they all seem very rooted in being vulnerable out loud. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, he’s got posts about his weight. It’s, you know, one where he’s at, uh, a wedding and somehow he got the mic. I think he’s in the wedding party and, and so these real life moments that he is sharing, you know. And I think of that in light of all the podcasters and male bloggers who focus on like sports and gambling and rah-rah red-blooded American male… Like, you know, I hope this guy does start a podcast, um, where he gets like more vulnerable and encourages other guys to, um, kind of beat back this, you know, masculinity that is actually a backlash to feminism, the rise of feminism.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s like you said, I, I was really drawn to the authenticity in this. The fact that it… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Same \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …did not, it could have felt so performative and I can imagine what that version of the video looks like and this, it really felt like he was having a conversation earnestly with, with his past self. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I, I think that’s hard to do online. Uh, I thought it was really touching.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I thought so too. And I also liked that it felt like a live vision board in a way, or like or not even a vision board.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> More so like, here’s what happened, here’s what we hope where we’re gonna happen, and then we get to see like what actually ended up happening for him 2025.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. There are a lot of things where, you know, people like sit down and like do tactile things \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And pull out and like pen and paper and cut up magazines. But this one is like, hey, if you’re already operating, you know, in the online sphere, if you’ve already got your phone in your hand all the time, like this is like a very, um, low lift way for you to just like document what were the things that were on my mind…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mm-hmm.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …and like, check in later, so long as you can find the video. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right, right, right. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You gotta be organized.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. You know, I, not to be cynical, but when you first sent this video, I was like, oh God, it’s another performative male thing. Like, I don’t know if you remember this, like last year was the year of performative male contests where like guys would put on their baggiest jeans and their, like all their labubus hooked onto it, bring their tote bags and their flowers and their like little Bell Hooks back, like copies to the park and compete as the most performative male.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it was kind of like a funny commentary on like how, uh, you know, guys were trying to not be the manosphere guy, like this like soft kind of person who is sensitive and listens to women and reads feminist material. Um, but then, you know, at the core they’re still kind of like players, whatever. And I was expecting that kind of thing, but it was nice to see something more authentic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, I don’t know, maybe that’s me. I’m too cynical about the internet, but I hope, I hope this kind of continues.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Lemme ask a question. Just because I am the only, I guess, male representative in this space, uh, uh, right now on our team.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, that we, you have the manosphere on one side, right? Uh, we all know what that is: the Joe Rogans of the world and the Andrew Tates and all of that. Um, and then you talk about the like performative mail and how that was really a big thing last year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, I just wonder like not to be like a male apologist, but like what are men supposed to do? What space are they supposed to occupy? You know, because like, I think you could imagine some men trying to sort of distance themselves from the manosphere stuff and then being called performative.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, and so like what, what is the right, uh, in your opinion in 2026, what, what does that look like? Like what is an authentic, like, non-toxic man supposed to present as and supposed to be in the world? Um, that’s not performative.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, when the whole performative male contests, uh, you know, were, when they, those were all taking off across the country. There were so many think pieces about like, how do men act online? Like, oh no. Um, and I think those contests were really like a commentary on how the manosphere and this like archetype of like this, the TikTok soft boy, it’s really like a horseshoe. You know, they’re, they’re a lot closer than you think because they’re performing, uh, they’re performing being woke, but like in public, but then in secret and or in private still mistreating women. And so I think really it’s just being normal to woman online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, it’s the toxic traits are still there at the core.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. Just they’re like wrapped up in a tote bag and a labubu.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>All:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Just being normal\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Be genuine.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s, it’s possible guys. It’s possible. Just be normal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Chris H., I have to know, based on this not performative male, not manosphere content that you just showed us, what is your prediction for 2026?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay. I think that this is gonna be a year where more men feel comfortable being vulnerable publicly online…and sincerely, um, like maybe we’ll see more of these, um, checking in with your past self videos, and hopefully all the men who have, um, repressed these emotions, uh, they start leaking out and they get to release them as a healthier method of, um, being instead of like blowing things up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, team, an antidote to the manosphere. Do we save or do we scroll?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I vote to save this because, you know, we’ve been talking about doing something on the manosphere in general, but I kind of like looking at this, what’s beyond the manosphere? How, how might it be rejected in the next year?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I, you know, I am surprising myself because I am on the fence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like, I, I like a good internet trend. I hope that this will take off, but I wanna see it, um, sort of in the background. I want it to happen without it going, Hey, look what men are doing.You know? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mm-hmm. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I can just like be, I took note of that. That’s neat. More of that, please. Scroll.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Then you’re back in the performative space,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> More labubus.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Although I do wanna see an antidote to the manosphere. I feel like I would scroll past this personally, but I don’t know Morgan, what you think.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, you know, I’ve been scrolling past the manosphere content because I don’t wanna see it. Um, and I don’t wanna platform it. Um, and then this, it’s like, I, I like that it’s happening. I, I think it’s good for humanity but I’m gonna scroll because I don’t wanna make a Not All Men episode. Sorry, Chris.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Crushing. Crushing. I mean, do I need a retort? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, uh, so sorry Chris, we are, Chris E. We are scrolling on men being vulnerable online, but we do want more of it in the world. We do want it, we want it to happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll save it on my, my personal feed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>All:\u003c/b> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well guys, thanks for joining me for Save or Scroll.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. I’ll see you in a year.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Egusa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks Morgan. This was super fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maya Cueva:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Thanks Morgan. This was a lot of fun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right, well, that is it for Save or Scroll. We’re keeping tabs on everything that we did save, so don’t be surprised if one of those stories shows up as a deep dive in your feed. We’ll be back next week with more Close All Tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nClose All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Hambrick is our editor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor, and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends, too. Or even your enemies! Or… frenemies? And if you \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate dot KQED dot org slash podcasts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "death-robotaxis-and-a-cat-named-kitkat",
"title": "Death, Robotaxis, and a Cat Named KitKat",
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"headTitle": "Death, Robotaxis, and a Cat Named KitKat | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When KitKat, a beloved bodega cat, was killed by a Waymo in San Francisco in late October of this year, the incident quickly went viral. It ignited grief and outrage. It also renewed scrutiny of autonomous vehicles. But in a city where hundreds of animals are hit by vehicles each year, why did this incident — and this particular cat — hit such a nerve? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We hear from Oscar Palma, the first reporter on the scene, about what unfolded the night KitKat was killed. Then, Mission Local managing editor Joe Eskenazi and KQED reporter Sydney Johnson explore the limits of autonomous vehicles and why one cat’s death resonated so deeply in a rapidly gentrifying San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5106693547\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/sjohnson\">Sydney Johnson\u003c/a>, reporter at KQED \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/author/oscarp/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oscar Palma\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, reporter at Mission Local\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/joe-eskenazi/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joe Eskenazi\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, managing editor at Mission Local\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/2025/10/kitkat-mission-liquor-store-mascot-and-16th-st-ambassador-killed-on-monday/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat, liquor store mascot and ‘16th St. ambassador,’ killed — allegedly by Waymo\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Oscar Palma, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mission Local\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12062777/san-francisco-supervisor-calls-for-robotaxi-reform-after-waymo-kills-neighborhood-cat\">San Francisco Supervisor Calls for Robotaxi Reform After Waymo Kills Neighborhood Cat \u003c/a>\u003ci>— Sydney Johnson, \u003ci>KQED\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/12/05/us/waymo-kit-kat-san-francisco.html\">How Kit Kat Was Killed: Video Shows What a Waymo Couldn’t See \u003c/a>— Heather Knight, \u003ci>The New York Times \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2023/12/30/1222083720/driverless-cars-gm-cruise-waymo-san-francisco-accidents\">Driverless car startup Cruise’s no good, terrible year\u003c/a> — Dara Kerr, \u003ci>NPR\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://sfstandard.com/2024/11/14/cruise-fine-investigation-dragging-robotaxi/\">Cruise admits lying to feds about dragging woman in San Francisco\u003c/a> — Kevin Truong, \u003ci>The San Francisco Standard\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/2025/12/waymo-confirms-its-car-hit-dog-in-western-addition/\">Waymo hits dog in S.F. weeks after killing Mission bodega cat\u003c/a> — Kelly Waldron, \u003ci>Mission Local\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kron4.com/news/technology-ai/dog-hit-by-waymo-in-sf-put-down-by-family-after-suffering-severe-pelvic-trauma/\">Dog hit by Waymo in SF put down by family after suffering ‘severe pelvic trauma’\u003c/a> — Alex Baker, \u003ci>KRON4\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.economist.com/business/2025/11/24/the-self-driving-taxi-revolution-begins-at-last\">The self-driving taxi revolution begins at last\u003c/a> — \u003ci>The Economist \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Crowd Chanting “KitKat! KitKat!” ]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last month, KQED reporter Sydney Johnson covered an event in her neighborhood, that was part memorial service, part rally, in San Francisco’s Mission District. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dozens of residents gathered in front of Randa’s Market to remember KitKat, the store’s beloved 9-year-old tabby cat. KitKat was more than a bodega cat — he was known as the Mayor of 16th street. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There were dozens of people there, you know, chitchatting. uh, many of them lived in the neighborhood and were giving each other hugs and, you know, talking about memories that they had of walking by the market after a late night and petting KitKat or, you know, maybe on their way to work and, and giving him a little scratch, uh, when they popped in for a drink in the morning.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat’s death was particularly devastating for the neighborhood, because it wasn’t old age, or sickness, or even human cruelty that killed him. It was a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s the autonomous rideshare service, also known as a robotaxi.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’d say the vibe of this event was, you know, both. Mournful and, and somber. but also really angry and, and focused.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat was struck and killed in late October, and in the days after, locals mourned him by turning the tree in front of Randa’s Market into a makeshift shrine. Someone had attached a framed photo of KitKat to the tree, and others adorned the frame with flowers and a cat-sized crown. The base of the tree was overflowing with candles, bouquets, handwritten messages, and of course, cat treats. People even scattered KitKat’s namesake candy around the shrine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By the time the rally happened a week later, grief had become anger. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But our local supervisor, you know, took some of that anger and outrage and. Really just said, this is a moment where we have to think about these technologies that are being deployed all around us \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s San Francisco Supervisor Jackie Fielder at the rally. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Jackie Fielder at Rally]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The future of autonomous vehicles should be decided by people, not tech, oligarchs and their politicians. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience Member: Yes!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jackie Fielder: Thank you all so much and rest in peace, KitKat. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat’s death sparked nationwide outrage. He’s become the face of resistance to robotaxis, AI, and the tech industry as a whole. In death, he’s become a viral sensation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Australia News]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a new social justice movement in San Francisco, sparked by the death of a beloved neighborhood cat that was killed by a driverless car.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Inside Edition] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now fans of the adored feline are taking to social media demanding hashtag justice for Kit Kat. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Tiktok]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People are mourning a true pillar of the community and who they call the mayor of 16th Street,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo, meanwhile, recently announced its expansion across California. The company has plans to deploy its robotaxis in San Diego, Sacramento, and lots in between. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so it kind of became, you know, more than just this cat who died. This is actually now something where people who have been, you know, nervous or uneasy about autonomous vehicles, uh, really had a moment where they were saying, Hey, let’s actually think about how we can avoid this kind of tragedy, uh, especially if it could get even worse in the future.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo says its autonomous vehicles are safer than human drivers — at least, they have a lower crash rate. But these cars aren’t infallible. KitKat may be the most viral victim of a robotaxi crash, but he’s not the only one. His death has raised some major concerns about safety, especially as Waymo and other robotaxi companies vie to compete with human-driven rideshares. The loss of this little bodega cat might have sparked a movement … but can these giant tech companies really be reined in? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymos, and robotaxis as a whole, have been pretty controversial since they started hitting streets in 2020. While robotaxi supporters praise the convenience and supposed safety of self-driving cars, detractors have real concerns. They threaten jobs, they disrupt traffic, they can’t make the same decisions that a human driver can, which makes them a nuisance at best and at worst, a public safety hazard. Plus, they represent the tech industry’s rapid encroachment on local communities. Like we covered in one of our very first episodes of this show, it’s what makes Waymos so easy to vandalize: they’re a physical, tangible outlet for this collective anxiety and rage against Silicon Valley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Los Angeles, Dodgers fans celebrated their team’s World Series win by spray painting and smashing Waymos.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Videos of the vandalized cars went viral, with captions like “Justice for KitKat” and “Revenge for the bodega cat.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So why did this particular incident kick off such a firestorm? To unpack that, we need to return to the night KitKat was killed. What do we know, and what don’t we know, about what happened? Time to open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX typing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happened to KitKat? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX tab sequence]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Oscar Palma, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Every time I go to the Roxy, I would always make a point to stop by and then say hi to Kit Kat.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Oscar Palma, a reporter at Mission Local, a news site that covers San Francisco. He was one of the first journalists to break the news of KitKat’s death. The Roxie is a local theater that shows indie and arthouse films. This area is a bustling social hub — there are bars, restaurants, comedy clubs and KitKat lived in the heart of it, in the corner store right next to the Roxie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People were laughing and saying we call him the boss because he was checking on everyone, making sure that everything was working.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the night of the incident, KitKat was doing what he did best: sauntering up and down the street, greeting bar patrons.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was Monday night. I believe it was 11:40 pm and two witnesses who came up to me and they say, “Hey, we saw everything that happened.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They came out of the bar, and so they saw the Waymo was picking up some passengers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> While the Waymo idled at the curb, KitKat darted under the hood, settling in front of the car’s front tire. A bystander noticed the cat, and rushed over to lure him out. She recounted the night in an interview with the New York Times. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Meg Brigman in TikTok Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I bent down, his ears were back. He looked very stressed. I said, “KitKat, come here, come here.” Being so close to the car, I didn’t expect it to drive away.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oscar said that KitKat stood in front of the tire for about seven seconds, before he got spooked and retreated further under the car. The Waymo didn’t appear to sense KitKat, or the person crouched in front of the car. Instead, as surveillance footage obtained by the New York Times shows, the Waymo pulled forward. Here’s Oscar again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so he ran over, um, half of his body. And so Kit Kat, um, made it on its own back to the sidewalk. But, um, our witnesses saw everything and they describe a very awful sight to see. Uh, pretty much seeing the last moment of KitKat being alive, and they say that the Waymo never really stopped.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat dragged himself to the sidewalk, but was gravely injured and spitting blood. A bartender called KitKat’s owner and rushed the cat to a nearby animal hospital, where he died.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oscar said that Mission Local requested a copy of Waymo’s footage from the accident, but the company didn’t respond. Here’s Joe Eskenazi, managing editor at Mission Local. He joined us for the conversation with Oscar.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So clearly, you know, the witnesses told Oscar that the cat had been idling in front of the car for seven seconds. Waymo simply said, the cat darted underneath the car. Both of those things can be true, but by omitting the first part, you’re not telling the full story. So, you know, presumably it’s all on film.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo touts its safety record as significantly better than human drivers. The company reported that throughout June 2025, Waymos had 80% fewer injury-causing crashes. But autonomous vehicles aren’t able to replicate human thinking and reasoning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For their story, Mission Local spoke with several experts on autonomous vehicles.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s the problem, is that human beings have what’s known as object permanence. When you hide your face from a baby, you know the baby is surprised to see that you can take your \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">fa\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> hand away and, and your face is still there. But you know, children who are even very young understand that your face doesn’t disappear. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo cars don’t know that. Waymo cars don’t have the computational power, as amazing as they are, to know that the cat that, uh, was in front of the car for seven seconds and then walked under the car where there are not sensors is still a factor. You can’t really have the sensors on the bottom of the car because they get dirtied up so quickly. If you’ve ever touched the tires on your car, they’re really dirty, so they get dirtied up so quickly that you can’t really have sensors there. So, you know, these cars are susceptible to small objects like this being underneath the car.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happened to KitKat is not a one-off incident. Earlier this month, just weeks after a Waymo killed KitKat, another Waymo ran over an unleashed dog in San Francisco, about ten minutes from where KitKat was struck and killed. The dog’s owners decided to put him down due to severe pelvic injuries. Waymo reportedly offered to assist with the dog’s medical expenses, and offered to cover the cost of adopting a new pet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People can say that human beings don’t drive as well as these vehicles. But we can also say that we’re seeing a pattern here of the autonomous vehicles being susceptible to small objects underneath them or even large objects underneath them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A similar incident happened with Cruise just a few years ago. If this is your first time hearing about Cruise, it’s probably because the company shut down last year.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cruise was the robotaxi service owned by General Motors. They were actually the first company to receive California’s Driverless Deployment Permit, in 2022. They had a modest fleet, a couple hundred cars in San Francisco, and planned to expand to other cities. They were actually bigger than Waymo back then. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Until, in 2023, when one of Cruise’s driverless cars hit a pedestrian. Instead of stopping, the car ran her over and continued driving, dragging her for about 20 feet until it finally stopped at a curb , still on top of the pedestrian. She was critically injured in the crash. The California DMV revoked Cruise’s license and ordered the company to suspend operations in the state. That was in late 2023 and Waymo opened to the public in California in 2024. But KitKat’s death rehashes the same concerns that people had over Cruise. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These incidents are, you know, kind of like, uh, a broad daylight shooting in a suburban neighborhood. It’s something that is unusual. We have seen that the cars are not infallible and what’s worse there, there are holes in the technology. Not knowing there’s a person, or in this case, a small animal under your car, strikes me as something that you could improve on. It strikes me as a safety hazard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Waymo’s been facing a bit of a PR crisis over KitKat’s death. It doesn’t help that on the same day of the accident, just hours before KitKat was fatally struck by a Waymo, the company’s co-CEO Tekedra Mawakana appeared on TechCrunch’s Disrupt stage. This exchange went viral: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from TechCrunch’s Disrupt stage]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kirsten Korosec: Will society accept a death potentially caused by a robot? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Takedra Mawakana: I think that society will, I think the challenge for us is making sure that society has a high enough bar on safety that companies are held to. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, after those comments, the company faced immense backlash when news of KitKat’s death broke. Waymo made a statement four days after KitKat died. They apologized and said they’d make a donation to a local animal rights organization in KitKat’s honor. But skepticism about the safety risks of autonomous technology has only continued to build. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So those are all things to be concerned about, regardless of how many cats are struck by human drivers every day. And regardless of how safe Waymo is, by and large. Uh, frankly, I have to tell you, I’ve been more than a little disappointed by the simplistic whataboutism of people who simply wanna shrug their shoulders and say ‘They’re safer than humans. What do you want?’ I think that it could do better. I think that both the corporation and the vehicles could do better.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it turns out a lot of other people feel the same way.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What sparks anger and movements is not always what you think it is. In this case, yes, a cat was run over, which happens all the time, every day. But you know, this strikes me as being, uh, a tipping point type situation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This backlash is coming at a time when Waymo is really expanding. In parts of the Bay Area and Southern California, they’re even allowed on freeways. Last month, amid the KitKat backlash, Waymo launched in Miami, with plans to roll out its cars in ten more cities over the next year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s clear there’s a lot of buzz around Waymos. But the critics are gaining some steam, thanks to the tragedy that befell KitKat. And that brings us back to the rally, in front of Randa’s Market, a week after KitKat was killed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Crowd Chanting “KitKat, KitKat, KitKat”]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So how are organizers, advocates, and politicians using the momentum from this incident to push back against the ever-expanding reach of self-driving car companies?\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a new tab … but first, a quick break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok we’re back. Let’s open a new tab.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX keyboard sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat the tech martyr\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX tab sequence]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">About a week after KitKat’s death, San Francisco Supervisor Jackie Fielder hosted the memorial rally for KitKat, in front of the corner store he’d called home for years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Memorial Rally for KitKat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Supervisor Jackie Fielder: Local communities deserve a say over our streets and over the technologies that affect us. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Supervisor Fielder was one of several speakers at the makeshift podium. An officer from the local Teamsters chapter raised concerns about autonomous vehicles taking human jobs. A public transit advocate questioned why the city was investing so heavily in robotaxis, while San Francisco’s trains and buses face a huge funding deficit. And a few spoke out about the safety issues. They came from different backgrounds, but shared the same point: why didn’t their community get a say in allowing Waymos?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s how Justin Dole, a bar owner and president of the organization Small Business Forward, put it when it was his turn to speak at the rally: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Memorial Rally for KitKat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003ci>Justin Dole: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think that’s why people have been so profoundly disturbed by KitKat’s death. The mayor of this space, as he was known, was taken from us by a technology that none of us asked for and crucially, to the point of this resolution, none of us consented to. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And that’s at the heart of a new legislative push from Supervisor Fielder. KQED reporter Sydney Johnson, who we heard from at the top of the episode, has been reporting on the rideshare industry here in California. She actually lives in the Mission — KitKat’s home turf. Sydney’s going to walk us through this legislative battle. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There have been no shortage of, you know, efforts in Sacramento to try and carve out laws around robotaxis, which is this really relatively new technology and, and area of law also. And a lot of those have faced, you know, lobbying and have just had a pretty difficult time getting through the legislature.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the rally, our local supervisor, Jackie Fielder, along with other community and labor leaders were calling on state lawmakers to revisit legislation that was actually proposed last year, but failed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sydney’s talking about SB-915, a California senate bill that would have allowed local cities to vote on whether to allow robotaxis on their streets. Supporters said that it gives residents more agency. Critics of the bill said that it would make rides between different towns or municipalities an absolute nightmare.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of the biggest, uh, points of opposition to that piece of legislation was that it would create this, you know, really messy patchwork of different policies where maybe you have a robo taxi that can get you around one tiny city, but you can’t actually get to your destination, which is two towns over because this city in the middle voted against it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So that ultimately failed. It did not get the support it needed to pass. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">H\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">owever, there was still a lot of interest in finding a way to still provide some, you know, democratic framework for this technology, which currently for robotaxi companies, they only need to receive permits from the state level in order to operate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they’ve received that for multiple cities and California and a few other places around the country. But these lawmakers who were supporting, uh, this law last year and, and now Jackie Fielder who’s asking lawmakers to revisit it, wanna see the effort not completely die since it didn’t work around city to city regulation, but are hoping to kind of broaden that a little bit at looking at the county level. So having the county of San Francisco or the county of Alameda, you know, these various kind of larger jurisdictions, voters there can decide whether robo taxis can operate on their streets.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As a city supervisor, Jackie Fielder can’t introduce state legislation herself, but she’s still using this moment to shine a spotlight on the issue.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung in tape:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can you talk about how lawmakers and public transit advocates are using this momentum from this cat’s death to push for new action around Waymo’s and other Robotaxis? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’s interesting about this story and about Kit Kat is it seems to have gotten bigger than California, and certainly bigger than San Francisco where this happened. Um. There were stories about KitKat in the Washington Post, in the New York Times. We were seeing stories on CNN about this cat who was killed by a Waymo and just the heartbreak that came as a result of that. And so local lawmakers here in San Francisco really latched onto that. You know, we, we see this with all different types of legislation when there’s a viral moment and a lawmaker might try to attach some sort of policy idea to that moment and, and, you know, kind of ride some of the energy and life that that story has via that virality.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, and we certainly saw that here with KitKat and how supervisor Jackie Fielder said, Hey, we need to start talking about this again before things get worse. But, you know, some tragedy has already happened here. And voters, at least who were showing up to this rally, uh, were pretty open about the fact that they wanted to see some sort of either restrictions or at least have the option to vote on whether Waymo’s can operate and, and roam the streets.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, It still remains to be seen if lawmakers in Sacramento are going to pick this up. Um, but certainly here there’s been some, uh, support bubbling for it. I think that it has really just become a symbol for so many different things. Whether it’s concerns about AI taking jobs or safety, or sustainability with transit. You know, I think a lot of people have been able to impress their message onto KitKat’s death.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These critiques of automated technology have been around for decades. But it’s only recently that they’ve taken a hold in mainstream, public conversation as autonomous vehicles advance and spread across the country. Waymo may be leading the race, but competitors are sprinting to cash in on the robotaxi wars. Uber, Zoox, Nvdia, Tesla, and like, every car manufacturer are all investing in and testing and launching their own versions of a driverless ride service.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joe, the managing editor at Mission Local, says KitKat became a flashpoint for these larger tensions playing out in San Francisco and beyond.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Just on the base level, this, what you’re describing here is a proxy war between the technology companies and the Teamsters unions. And so you can basically see, you know, which politicians are more aligned with the big money tech companies. And Waymo is owned by Google, which, you know, uh, draws a lot of water in this town to use the Big Lebowski line.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, they’re, they are, they are big players, you know, with, with no small amount of lobbying money and no small amount of interest in this state and in this county San Francisco. Is it possible that in the future this legislation could be adopted? I get the sad feeling that something terrible needs to happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s Oscar, the Mission Local reporter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I mean, this is something that I, I, I think about just in my everyday life, um, like a cyclist usually has to die for the city to build the proper infrastructure, um, in a section of the city. And it’s, it’s sad that we have to get to that point to, to see the changes that a lot of us want to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So clearly, KitKat has become a symbol of something bigger — let’s talk about what his death means. How about one last tab? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX keyboard typing] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat’s legacy \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SFX tab sequence]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This month, Randa’s Market welcomed a new bodega cat: Coco, a white six-month-old kitten, with a black nose and ink-tipped ears. She was a gift, from a neighbor to the store’s owner. But KitKat hasn’t been forgotten — if anything, he’s remembered as a folk hero, who represented a version of San Francisco that doesn’t exist anymore. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, talking to people who lived on 16th Street, talking to bartenders around there, you know, people who just feel like their community has been changing, you know, for decades really, but especially in the last few years it’s felt like so much has really accelerated and just seeing this clash of this hyper new technology. These like, you know, sleek driverless cars, quite literally crush a bodega cat is just such a stark image of seeing, you know, this sort of San Francisco that wants to resist all the ways that technology is now quite literally displacing people, animals, you know, a, a city that was once affordable to artists and creatives and teachers and, you know, working class folks.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This whole story really kind of characterized I think some of that disappointment and sadness that people have about having no say or no control over the quote unquote progress that’s happening around them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, knowing that, there’s a real ironic twist to this story. KitKat, the adorable face of resistance to encroaching tech, is now also a meme coin. And yes for the uninitiated, that’s a cryptocurrency thing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So now you know there is an altar on 16th Street for KitKat, but he will forever be immortalized on the blockchain as a crypto coin also.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KITKATCOIN launched without the knowledge of KitKat’s actual family, but the store owner’s son has since taken over. He says he donated the first $10,000 of proceeds to an animal rights group. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I believe that it hit its peak on Halloween, which was just a few days after KitKat’s death. Um, but pretty shortly after that the value of this crypto coin just plummeted. Uh, which if you’ve followed these meme coins before is a pretty typical story. But I think with this, you know, it really. Just sort of epitomizes the virality of this story and how it took on a life of its own online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, there’s KitKat the tech martyr and KitKat the meme coin, immortalized on the blockchain. In the Mission, locals just remember KitKat the bodega cat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think people would remember him first as a friend, uh, second as a member of that community. I think KitKat encompassed everything that this, like one block of resistance,in the mission, um, against, um, waves of gentrification. I always think about this block in a very romantic old school San Francisco way. You have this like feeling of like people mourning this loss together and this like very, um, deep connection that everyone had with each other.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, like I went to report the next night. Uh, and I went to Delirium and people were taking shots for KitKat. You know, like Delirium is right next to the liquor store. if you had been there, you would’ve seen the mood in the bar that night. Everyone was really quiet. Everyone was really sad, and people were taking shots for KitKat left and \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So pour one out for KitKat. We’d usually close all these tabs, but today? Let’s leave his open a little longer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And by the way — Close All Tabs is taking a break for the holidays. We’ll see you in the new year, with brand new deep dives! For now, we’re wrapping up this year — in honor of our friend KitKat.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva, and edited by Chris Egusa.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva, Chris Hambrick is our editor. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor, and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Also, we want to hear from you! Email us CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. Follow us on instagram at “close all tabs pod.” Or TikTok at “close all tabs.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "When KitKat, a beloved bodega cat, was killed by a Waymo in San Francisco in late October of this year, the incident quickly went viral. It ignited grief and outrage. It also renewed scrutiny of autonomous vehicles. But in a city where hundreds of animals are hit by vehicles each year, why did this incident — and this particular cat — hit such a nerve? We hear from Oscar Palma, the first reporter on the scene, about what unfolded the night KitKat was killed. Then, Mission Local managing editor Joe Eskenazi and KQED reporter Sydney Johnson explore the limits of autonomous vehicles and why one cat’s death resonated so deeply in a rapidly gentrifying San Francisco.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When KitKat, a beloved bodega cat, was killed by a Waymo in San Francisco in late October of this year, the incident quickly went viral. It ignited grief and outrage. It also renewed scrutiny of autonomous vehicles. But in a city where hundreds of animals are hit by vehicles each year, why did this incident — and this particular cat — hit such a nerve? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We hear from Oscar Palma, the first reporter on the scene, about what unfolded the night KitKat was killed. Then, Mission Local managing editor Joe Eskenazi and KQED reporter Sydney Johnson explore the limits of autonomous vehicles and why one cat’s death resonated so deeply in a rapidly gentrifying San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5106693547\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/sjohnson\">Sydney Johnson\u003c/a>, reporter at KQED \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/author/oscarp/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oscar Palma\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, reporter at Mission Local\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/joe-eskenazi/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joe Eskenazi\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, managing editor at Mission Local\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/2025/10/kitkat-mission-liquor-store-mascot-and-16th-st-ambassador-killed-on-monday/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat, liquor store mascot and ‘16th St. ambassador,’ killed — allegedly by Waymo\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Oscar Palma, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mission Local\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12062777/san-francisco-supervisor-calls-for-robotaxi-reform-after-waymo-kills-neighborhood-cat\">San Francisco Supervisor Calls for Robotaxi Reform After Waymo Kills Neighborhood Cat \u003c/a>\u003ci>— Sydney Johnson, \u003ci>KQED\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/12/05/us/waymo-kit-kat-san-francisco.html\">How Kit Kat Was Killed: Video Shows What a Waymo Couldn’t See \u003c/a>— Heather Knight, \u003ci>The New York Times \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2023/12/30/1222083720/driverless-cars-gm-cruise-waymo-san-francisco-accidents\">Driverless car startup Cruise’s no good, terrible year\u003c/a> — Dara Kerr, \u003ci>NPR\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://sfstandard.com/2024/11/14/cruise-fine-investigation-dragging-robotaxi/\">Cruise admits lying to feds about dragging woman in San Francisco\u003c/a> — Kevin Truong, \u003ci>The San Francisco Standard\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://missionlocal.org/2025/12/waymo-confirms-its-car-hit-dog-in-western-addition/\">Waymo hits dog in S.F. weeks after killing Mission bodega cat\u003c/a> — Kelly Waldron, \u003ci>Mission Local\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kron4.com/news/technology-ai/dog-hit-by-waymo-in-sf-put-down-by-family-after-suffering-severe-pelvic-trauma/\">Dog hit by Waymo in SF put down by family after suffering ‘severe pelvic trauma’\u003c/a> — Alex Baker, \u003ci>KRON4\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.economist.com/business/2025/11/24/the-self-driving-taxi-revolution-begins-at-last\">The self-driving taxi revolution begins at last\u003c/a> — \u003ci>The Economist \u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Crowd Chanting “KitKat! KitKat!” ]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last month, KQED reporter Sydney Johnson covered an event in her neighborhood, that was part memorial service, part rally, in San Francisco’s Mission District. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dozens of residents gathered in front of Randa’s Market to remember KitKat, the store’s beloved 9-year-old tabby cat. KitKat was more than a bodega cat — he was known as the Mayor of 16th street. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There were dozens of people there, you know, chitchatting. uh, many of them lived in the neighborhood and were giving each other hugs and, you know, talking about memories that they had of walking by the market after a late night and petting KitKat or, you know, maybe on their way to work and, and giving him a little scratch, uh, when they popped in for a drink in the morning.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat’s death was particularly devastating for the neighborhood, because it wasn’t old age, or sickness, or even human cruelty that killed him. It was a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s the autonomous rideshare service, also known as a robotaxi.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’d say the vibe of this event was, you know, both. Mournful and, and somber. but also really angry and, and focused.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat was struck and killed in late October, and in the days after, locals mourned him by turning the tree in front of Randa’s Market into a makeshift shrine. Someone had attached a framed photo of KitKat to the tree, and others adorned the frame with flowers and a cat-sized crown. The base of the tree was overflowing with candles, bouquets, handwritten messages, and of course, cat treats. People even scattered KitKat’s namesake candy around the shrine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By the time the rally happened a week later, grief had become anger. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But our local supervisor, you know, took some of that anger and outrage and. Really just said, this is a moment where we have to think about these technologies that are being deployed all around us \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s San Francisco Supervisor Jackie Fielder at the rally. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Jackie Fielder at Rally]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The future of autonomous vehicles should be decided by people, not tech, oligarchs and their politicians. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience Member: Yes!\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jackie Fielder: Thank you all so much and rest in peace, KitKat. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat’s death sparked nationwide outrage. He’s become the face of resistance to robotaxis, AI, and the tech industry as a whole. In death, he’s become a viral sensation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Australia News]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a new social justice movement in San Francisco, sparked by the death of a beloved neighborhood cat that was killed by a driverless car.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Inside Edition] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now fans of the adored feline are taking to social media demanding hashtag justice for Kit Kat. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from Tiktok]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People are mourning a true pillar of the community and who they call the mayor of 16th Street,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo, meanwhile, recently announced its expansion across California. The company has plans to deploy its robotaxis in San Diego, Sacramento, and lots in between. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so it kind of became, you know, more than just this cat who died. This is actually now something where people who have been, you know, nervous or uneasy about autonomous vehicles, uh, really had a moment where they were saying, Hey, let’s actually think about how we can avoid this kind of tragedy, uh, especially if it could get even worse in the future.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo says its autonomous vehicles are safer than human drivers — at least, they have a lower crash rate. But these cars aren’t infallible. KitKat may be the most viral victim of a robotaxi crash, but he’s not the only one. His death has raised some major concerns about safety, especially as Waymo and other robotaxi companies vie to compete with human-driven rideshares. The loss of this little bodega cat might have sparked a movement … but can these giant tech companies really be reined in? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymos, and robotaxis as a whole, have been pretty controversial since they started hitting streets in 2020. While robotaxi supporters praise the convenience and supposed safety of self-driving cars, detractors have real concerns. They threaten jobs, they disrupt traffic, they can’t make the same decisions that a human driver can, which makes them a nuisance at best and at worst, a public safety hazard. Plus, they represent the tech industry’s rapid encroachment on local communities. Like we covered in one of our very first episodes of this show, it’s what makes Waymos so easy to vandalize: they’re a physical, tangible outlet for this collective anxiety and rage against Silicon Valley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Los Angeles, Dodgers fans celebrated their team’s World Series win by spray painting and smashing Waymos.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Videos of the vandalized cars went viral, with captions like “Justice for KitKat” and “Revenge for the bodega cat.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So why did this particular incident kick off such a firestorm? To unpack that, we need to return to the night KitKat was killed. What do we know, and what don’t we know, about what happened? Time to open a new tab. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX typing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happened to KitKat? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX tab sequence]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Oscar Palma, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Every time I go to the Roxy, I would always make a point to stop by and then say hi to Kit Kat.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Oscar Palma, a reporter at Mission Local, a news site that covers San Francisco. He was one of the first journalists to break the news of KitKat’s death. The Roxie is a local theater that shows indie and arthouse films. This area is a bustling social hub — there are bars, restaurants, comedy clubs and KitKat lived in the heart of it, in the corner store right next to the Roxie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People were laughing and saying we call him the boss because he was checking on everyone, making sure that everything was working.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the night of the incident, KitKat was doing what he did best: sauntering up and down the street, greeting bar patrons.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was Monday night. I believe it was 11:40 pm and two witnesses who came up to me and they say, “Hey, we saw everything that happened.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They came out of the bar, and so they saw the Waymo was picking up some passengers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> While the Waymo idled at the curb, KitKat darted under the hood, settling in front of the car’s front tire. A bystander noticed the cat, and rushed over to lure him out. She recounted the night in an interview with the New York Times. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Meg Brigman in TikTok Clip]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I bent down, his ears were back. He looked very stressed. I said, “KitKat, come here, come here.” Being so close to the car, I didn’t expect it to drive away.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oscar said that KitKat stood in front of the tire for about seven seconds, before he got spooked and retreated further under the car. The Waymo didn’t appear to sense KitKat, or the person crouched in front of the car. Instead, as surveillance footage obtained by the New York Times shows, the Waymo pulled forward. Here’s Oscar again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so he ran over, um, half of his body. And so Kit Kat, um, made it on its own back to the sidewalk. But, um, our witnesses saw everything and they describe a very awful sight to see. Uh, pretty much seeing the last moment of KitKat being alive, and they say that the Waymo never really stopped.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat dragged himself to the sidewalk, but was gravely injured and spitting blood. A bartender called KitKat’s owner and rushed the cat to a nearby animal hospital, where he died.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oscar said that Mission Local requested a copy of Waymo’s footage from the accident, but the company didn’t respond. Here’s Joe Eskenazi, managing editor at Mission Local. He joined us for the conversation with Oscar.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So clearly, you know, the witnesses told Oscar that the cat had been idling in front of the car for seven seconds. Waymo simply said, the cat darted underneath the car. Both of those things can be true, but by omitting the first part, you’re not telling the full story. So, you know, presumably it’s all on film.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo touts its safety record as significantly better than human drivers. The company reported that throughout June 2025, Waymos had 80% fewer injury-causing crashes. But autonomous vehicles aren’t able to replicate human thinking and reasoning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For their story, Mission Local spoke with several experts on autonomous vehicles.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s the problem, is that human beings have what’s known as object permanence. When you hide your face from a baby, you know the baby is surprised to see that you can take your \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">fa\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> hand away and, and your face is still there. But you know, children who are even very young understand that your face doesn’t disappear. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Waymo cars don’t know that. Waymo cars don’t have the computational power, as amazing as they are, to know that the cat that, uh, was in front of the car for seven seconds and then walked under the car where there are not sensors is still a factor. You can’t really have the sensors on the bottom of the car because they get dirtied up so quickly. If you’ve ever touched the tires on your car, they’re really dirty, so they get dirtied up so quickly that you can’t really have sensors there. So, you know, these cars are susceptible to small objects like this being underneath the car.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happened to KitKat is not a one-off incident. Earlier this month, just weeks after a Waymo killed KitKat, another Waymo ran over an unleashed dog in San Francisco, about ten minutes from where KitKat was struck and killed. The dog’s owners decided to put him down due to severe pelvic injuries. Waymo reportedly offered to assist with the dog’s medical expenses, and offered to cover the cost of adopting a new pet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People can say that human beings don’t drive as well as these vehicles. But we can also say that we’re seeing a pattern here of the autonomous vehicles being susceptible to small objects underneath them or even large objects underneath them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A similar incident happened with Cruise just a few years ago. If this is your first time hearing about Cruise, it’s probably because the company shut down last year.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cruise was the robotaxi service owned by General Motors. They were actually the first company to receive California’s Driverless Deployment Permit, in 2022. They had a modest fleet, a couple hundred cars in San Francisco, and planned to expand to other cities. They were actually bigger than Waymo back then. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Until, in 2023, when one of Cruise’s driverless cars hit a pedestrian. Instead of stopping, the car ran her over and continued driving, dragging her for about 20 feet until it finally stopped at a curb , still on top of the pedestrian. She was critically injured in the crash. The California DMV revoked Cruise’s license and ordered the company to suspend operations in the state. That was in late 2023 and Waymo opened to the public in California in 2024. But KitKat’s death rehashes the same concerns that people had over Cruise. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These incidents are, you know, kind of like, uh, a broad daylight shooting in a suburban neighborhood. It’s something that is unusual. We have seen that the cars are not infallible and what’s worse there, there are holes in the technology. Not knowing there’s a person, or in this case, a small animal under your car, strikes me as something that you could improve on. It strikes me as a safety hazard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Waymo’s been facing a bit of a PR crisis over KitKat’s death. It doesn’t help that on the same day of the accident, just hours before KitKat was fatally struck by a Waymo, the company’s co-CEO Tekedra Mawakana appeared on TechCrunch’s Disrupt stage. This exchange went viral: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Clip from TechCrunch’s Disrupt stage]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kirsten Korosec: Will society accept a death potentially caused by a robot? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Takedra Mawakana: I think that society will, I think the challenge for us is making sure that society has a high enough bar on safety that companies are held to. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, after those comments, the company faced immense backlash when news of KitKat’s death broke. Waymo made a statement four days after KitKat died. They apologized and said they’d make a donation to a local animal rights organization in KitKat’s honor. But skepticism about the safety risks of autonomous technology has only continued to build. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So those are all things to be concerned about, regardless of how many cats are struck by human drivers every day. And regardless of how safe Waymo is, by and large. Uh, frankly, I have to tell you, I’ve been more than a little disappointed by the simplistic whataboutism of people who simply wanna shrug their shoulders and say ‘They’re safer than humans. What do you want?’ I think that it could do better. I think that both the corporation and the vehicles could do better.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it turns out a lot of other people feel the same way.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What sparks anger and movements is not always what you think it is. In this case, yes, a cat was run over, which happens all the time, every day. But you know, this strikes me as being, uh, a tipping point type situation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This backlash is coming at a time when Waymo is really expanding. In parts of the Bay Area and Southern California, they’re even allowed on freeways. Last month, amid the KitKat backlash, Waymo launched in Miami, with plans to roll out its cars in ten more cities over the next year. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s clear there’s a lot of buzz around Waymos. But the critics are gaining some steam, thanks to the tragedy that befell KitKat. And that brings us back to the rally, in front of Randa’s Market, a week after KitKat was killed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Crowd Chanting “KitKat, KitKat, KitKat”]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So how are organizers, advocates, and politicians using the momentum from this incident to push back against the ever-expanding reach of self-driving car companies?\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a new tab … but first, a quick break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok we’re back. Let’s open a new tab.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX keyboard sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat the tech martyr\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX tab sequence]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">About a week after KitKat’s death, San Francisco Supervisor Jackie Fielder hosted the memorial rally for KitKat, in front of the corner store he’d called home for years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Memorial Rally for KitKat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Supervisor Jackie Fielder: Local communities deserve a say over our streets and over the technologies that affect us. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Supervisor Fielder was one of several speakers at the makeshift podium. An officer from the local Teamsters chapter raised concerns about autonomous vehicles taking human jobs. A public transit advocate questioned why the city was investing so heavily in robotaxis, while San Francisco’s trains and buses face a huge funding deficit. And a few spoke out about the safety issues. They came from different backgrounds, but shared the same point: why didn’t their community get a say in allowing Waymos?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s how Justin Dole, a bar owner and president of the organization Small Business Forward, put it when it was his turn to speak at the rally: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Memorial Rally for KitKat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003ci>Justin Dole: \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think that’s why people have been so profoundly disturbed by KitKat’s death. The mayor of this space, as he was known, was taken from us by a technology that none of us asked for and crucially, to the point of this resolution, none of us consented to. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And that’s at the heart of a new legislative push from Supervisor Fielder. KQED reporter Sydney Johnson, who we heard from at the top of the episode, has been reporting on the rideshare industry here in California. She actually lives in the Mission — KitKat’s home turf. Sydney’s going to walk us through this legislative battle. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There have been no shortage of, you know, efforts in Sacramento to try and carve out laws around robotaxis, which is this really relatively new technology and, and area of law also. And a lot of those have faced, you know, lobbying and have just had a pretty difficult time getting through the legislature.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the rally, our local supervisor, Jackie Fielder, along with other community and labor leaders were calling on state lawmakers to revisit legislation that was actually proposed last year, but failed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sydney’s talking about SB-915, a California senate bill that would have allowed local cities to vote on whether to allow robotaxis on their streets. Supporters said that it gives residents more agency. Critics of the bill said that it would make rides between different towns or municipalities an absolute nightmare.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of the biggest, uh, points of opposition to that piece of legislation was that it would create this, you know, really messy patchwork of different policies where maybe you have a robo taxi that can get you around one tiny city, but you can’t actually get to your destination, which is two towns over because this city in the middle voted against it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So that ultimately failed. It did not get the support it needed to pass. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">H\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">owever, there was still a lot of interest in finding a way to still provide some, you know, democratic framework for this technology, which currently for robotaxi companies, they only need to receive permits from the state level in order to operate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they’ve received that for multiple cities and California and a few other places around the country. But these lawmakers who were supporting, uh, this law last year and, and now Jackie Fielder who’s asking lawmakers to revisit it, wanna see the effort not completely die since it didn’t work around city to city regulation, but are hoping to kind of broaden that a little bit at looking at the county level. So having the county of San Francisco or the county of Alameda, you know, these various kind of larger jurisdictions, voters there can decide whether robo taxis can operate on their streets.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As a city supervisor, Jackie Fielder can’t introduce state legislation herself, but she’s still using this moment to shine a spotlight on the issue.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung in tape:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can you talk about how lawmakers and public transit advocates are using this momentum from this cat’s death to push for new action around Waymo’s and other Robotaxis? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’s interesting about this story and about Kit Kat is it seems to have gotten bigger than California, and certainly bigger than San Francisco where this happened. Um. There were stories about KitKat in the Washington Post, in the New York Times. We were seeing stories on CNN about this cat who was killed by a Waymo and just the heartbreak that came as a result of that. And so local lawmakers here in San Francisco really latched onto that. You know, we, we see this with all different types of legislation when there’s a viral moment and a lawmaker might try to attach some sort of policy idea to that moment and, and, you know, kind of ride some of the energy and life that that story has via that virality.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Um, and we certainly saw that here with KitKat and how supervisor Jackie Fielder said, Hey, we need to start talking about this again before things get worse. But, you know, some tragedy has already happened here. And voters, at least who were showing up to this rally, uh, were pretty open about the fact that they wanted to see some sort of either restrictions or at least have the option to vote on whether Waymo’s can operate and, and roam the streets.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, It still remains to be seen if lawmakers in Sacramento are going to pick this up. Um, but certainly here there’s been some, uh, support bubbling for it. I think that it has really just become a symbol for so many different things. Whether it’s concerns about AI taking jobs or safety, or sustainability with transit. You know, I think a lot of people have been able to impress their message onto KitKat’s death.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These critiques of automated technology have been around for decades. But it’s only recently that they’ve taken a hold in mainstream, public conversation as autonomous vehicles advance and spread across the country. Waymo may be leading the race, but competitors are sprinting to cash in on the robotaxi wars. Uber, Zoox, Nvdia, Tesla, and like, every car manufacturer are all investing in and testing and launching their own versions of a driverless ride service.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joe, the managing editor at Mission Local, says KitKat became a flashpoint for these larger tensions playing out in San Francisco and beyond.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joe Eskenazi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Just on the base level, this, what you’re describing here is a proxy war between the technology companies and the Teamsters unions. And so you can basically see, you know, which politicians are more aligned with the big money tech companies. And Waymo is owned by Google, which, you know, uh, draws a lot of water in this town to use the Big Lebowski line.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, they’re, they are, they are big players, you know, with, with no small amount of lobbying money and no small amount of interest in this state and in this county San Francisco. Is it possible that in the future this legislation could be adopted? I get the sad feeling that something terrible needs to happen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here’s Oscar, the Mission Local reporter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I mean, this is something that I, I, I think about just in my everyday life, um, like a cyclist usually has to die for the city to build the proper infrastructure, um, in a section of the city. And it’s, it’s sad that we have to get to that point to, to see the changes that a lot of us want to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So clearly, KitKat has become a symbol of something bigger — let’s talk about what his death means. How about one last tab? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SFX keyboard typing] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KitKat’s legacy \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SFX tab sequence]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This month, Randa’s Market welcomed a new bodega cat: Coco, a white six-month-old kitten, with a black nose and ink-tipped ears. She was a gift, from a neighbor to the store’s owner. But KitKat hasn’t been forgotten — if anything, he’s remembered as a folk hero, who represented a version of San Francisco that doesn’t exist anymore. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, talking to people who lived on 16th Street, talking to bartenders around there, you know, people who just feel like their community has been changing, you know, for decades really, but especially in the last few years it’s felt like so much has really accelerated and just seeing this clash of this hyper new technology. These like, you know, sleek driverless cars, quite literally crush a bodega cat is just such a stark image of seeing, you know, this sort of San Francisco that wants to resist all the ways that technology is now quite literally displacing people, animals, you know, a, a city that was once affordable to artists and creatives and teachers and, you know, working class folks.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This whole story really kind of characterized I think some of that disappointment and sadness that people have about having no say or no control over the quote unquote progress that’s happening around them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, knowing that, there’s a real ironic twist to this story. KitKat, the adorable face of resistance to encroaching tech, is now also a meme coin. And yes for the uninitiated, that’s a cryptocurrency thing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So now you know there is an altar on 16th Street for KitKat, but he will forever be immortalized on the blockchain as a crypto coin also.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KITKATCOIN launched without the knowledge of KitKat’s actual family, but the store owner’s son has since taken over. He says he donated the first $10,000 of proceeds to an animal rights group. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sydney Johnson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I believe that it hit its peak on Halloween, which was just a few days after KitKat’s death. Um, but pretty shortly after that the value of this crypto coin just plummeted. Uh, which if you’ve followed these meme coins before is a pretty typical story. But I think with this, you know, it really. Just sort of epitomizes the virality of this story and how it took on a life of its own online. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, there’s KitKat the tech martyr and KitKat the meme coin, immortalized on the blockchain. In the Mission, locals just remember KitKat the bodega cat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Oscar Palma:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think people would remember him first as a friend, uh, second as a member of that community. I think KitKat encompassed everything that this, like one block of resistance,in the mission, um, against, um, waves of gentrification. I always think about this block in a very romantic old school San Francisco way. You have this like feeling of like people mourning this loss together and this like very, um, deep connection that everyone had with each other.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, like I went to report the next night. Uh, and I went to Delirium and people were taking shots for KitKat. You know, like Delirium is right next to the liquor store. if you had been there, you would’ve seen the mood in the bar that night. Everyone was really quiet. Everyone was really sad, and people were taking shots for KitKat left and \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So pour one out for KitKat. We’d usually close all these tabs, but today? Let’s leave his open a little longer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And by the way — Close All Tabs is taking a break for the holidays. We’ll see you in the new year, with brand new deep dives! For now, we’re wrapping up this year — in honor of our friend KitKat.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva, and edited by Chris Egusa.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs producer is Maya Cueva, Chris Hambrick is our editor. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor, and composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Also, we want to hear from you! Email us CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. Follow us on instagram at “close all tabs pod.” Or TikTok at “close all tabs.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Oakland’s License Plate Camera Contract Is Back Up for a Vote. Critics Are Crying Foul",
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"content": "\u003cp>Oakland’s City Council will vote next week on a controversial \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12005347/the-east-bay-has-hundreds-of-new-surveillance-cameras-and-more-are-on-the-way\">surveillance technology contract\u003c/a>, just weeks after it failed to advance out of committee amid concerns over the company’s data-sharing practices.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Oakland Police Department’s proposal to extend the contract with Flock Safety, which operates nearly 300 automatic license plate reader cameras across the city, did not pass a vote in the council’s Public Safety Committee last month. But this week, it was brought back before the Rules Committee, which moved it forward on Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m deeply concerned that this process feels like it lacks transparency and democracy,” Councilmember Carroll Fife said. “This item failed in committee and should go back to committee and be deliberated in that space.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Lance Wilson, policy and communications director at the Anti Police-Terror Project, the contract was only added to the Rules Committee meeting agenda on Wednesday afternoon, “with less than 24 hours’ notice to the public.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He called the committee’s decision to revive a contract vote by the council “stunning and undemocratic,” saying more than 4,000 Oakland residents have urged the council to vote no on Flock expansion, and more than 40 organizations, including the ACLU of Northern California and multiple local unions, submitted a joint letter warning that approving the contract would hurt immigrants, communities of color and unhoused residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fife and many residents had spoken out against granting a new two-year contract to the Atlanta-based company. The city’s volunteer Privacy Advisory Commission also refused to endorse OPD’s contract plan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Privacy advocates have long had \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12064587/civil-liberties-groups-sue-san-jose-over-license-plate-reader-use\">concerns about the amount of data\u003c/a> stored, collected and shared by Flock, but its technology has come under increased scrutiny in recent months after reports revealed that its searchable license plate database has been used to aid federal investigations, including by the Department of Homeland Security and Immigration and Customs Enforcement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>State law prohibits local law enforcement from sharing automated license plate data with out-of-state and federal agencies, and Oakland’s sanctuary city policy bars police and city officials from aiding in immigration enforcement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the summer, the \u003ca href=\"https://sfstandard.com/2025/07/14/oakland-san-francisco-ice-license-plate-readers/\">\u003cem>San Francisco Standard\u003c/em>\u003c/a> reported that OPD’s data was accessed on behalf of federal agencies, and just last month, Richmond shut down its network of cameras after discovering that the data they captured was searchable by federal agencies, despite believing it was for internal use only.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In November, the nonprofit Secure Justice and its leader, Brian Hofer, sued Oakland over the reports of data sharing. The suit alleges that the department’s data was made accessible to at least six federal agencies and a number of non-California state and local agencies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A month prior, Attorney General Rob Bonta \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-bonta-sues-el-cajon-illegally-sharing-license-plate-data-out\">sued the city of El Cajon\u003c/a> in San Diego County over similar Flock data sharing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11984097\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11984097\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A man with a fluorescent yellow coat holds a black machine.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A Flock Safety worker holds up a new automated license plate reader that was being installed in East San José on Tuesday, April 23, 2024. \u003ccite>(Joseph Geha/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As part of Flock’s services, it offers contracted agencies multiple data sharing options: a “National Lookup,” which allows two-way access to data between all Flock Safety customers who have opted in; a “State Lookup,” which creates a similar arrangement with other Flock customers only in their home state; and a 1:1 sharing option, which requires customers to add agencies they would like to share data with individually.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oakland has previously said that its license-plate reader data would not be made accessible outside OPD due to privacy concerns, but city documents show that the data was made accessible and shared with at least six federal and a number of non-California state and local agencies, according to Hofer’s lawsuit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The city has been using a network of 290 Flock cameras along highways and high-traffic areas to aid in police investigations since March 2024. Around the same time, departments across the Bay Area \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11989977/san-franciscos-new-license-plate-readers-are-leading-to-arrests-and-concerns-about-privacy\">entered similar contracts\u003c/a> with Flock as part of a push to crack down on crime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12064587 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/11/image-9.png']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Last month, OPD proposed a two-year, $2.25 million contract for Flock to maintain the existing camera network and allow police to access private cameras in the company’s system when the current contract ends in February.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The four-member Public Safety Committee deadlocked, with Councilmembers Charlene Wang and Ken Houston voting in favor and Councilmembers Rowena Brown and Fife voting against it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the meeting, Fife said she feared the data “falling into the hands of bad actors that have a track record” of working with agencies involved in immigration enforcement. She suggested that the department consider other vendors who could provide similar technology to use instead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the proposal was brought back to the Rules Committee this week, Councilmembers Kevin Jenkins and Janani Ramachandran, along with Brown, voted in favor of agendizing the contract vote, while Fife lodged the sole vote against.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I believe that we can use cameras for public safety tools, but this vendor has shown time and time again that they will just thwart the rule of law in cities and states all over the nation,” Fife said Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In public comment during Thursday’s meeting, Councilmember Houston voiced support for the plan, and representatives from Councilmember Zac Unger and Wang’s office also supported moving the vote forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s slated for a vote at the full council on Tuesday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Oakland’s City Council will vote next week on a controversial \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12005347/the-east-bay-has-hundreds-of-new-surveillance-cameras-and-more-are-on-the-way\">surveillance technology contract\u003c/a>, just weeks after it failed to advance out of committee amid concerns over the company’s data-sharing practices.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Oakland Police Department’s proposal to extend the contract with Flock Safety, which operates nearly 300 automatic license plate reader cameras across the city, did not pass a vote in the council’s Public Safety Committee last month. But this week, it was brought back before the Rules Committee, which moved it forward on Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m deeply concerned that this process feels like it lacks transparency and democracy,” Councilmember Carroll Fife said. “This item failed in committee and should go back to committee and be deliberated in that space.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Lance Wilson, policy and communications director at the Anti Police-Terror Project, the contract was only added to the Rules Committee meeting agenda on Wednesday afternoon, “with less than 24 hours’ notice to the public.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He called the committee’s decision to revive a contract vote by the council “stunning and undemocratic,” saying more than 4,000 Oakland residents have urged the council to vote no on Flock expansion, and more than 40 organizations, including the ACLU of Northern California and multiple local unions, submitted a joint letter warning that approving the contract would hurt immigrants, communities of color and unhoused residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fife and many residents had spoken out against granting a new two-year contract to the Atlanta-based company. The city’s volunteer Privacy Advisory Commission also refused to endorse OPD’s contract plan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Privacy advocates have long had \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12064587/civil-liberties-groups-sue-san-jose-over-license-plate-reader-use\">concerns about the amount of data\u003c/a> stored, collected and shared by Flock, but its technology has come under increased scrutiny in recent months after reports revealed that its searchable license plate database has been used to aid federal investigations, including by the Department of Homeland Security and Immigration and Customs Enforcement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>State law prohibits local law enforcement from sharing automated license plate data with out-of-state and federal agencies, and Oakland’s sanctuary city policy bars police and city officials from aiding in immigration enforcement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the summer, the \u003ca href=\"https://sfstandard.com/2025/07/14/oakland-san-francisco-ice-license-plate-readers/\">\u003cem>San Francisco Standard\u003c/em>\u003c/a> reported that OPD’s data was accessed on behalf of federal agencies, and just last month, Richmond shut down its network of cameras after discovering that the data they captured was searchable by federal agencies, despite believing it was for internal use only.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In November, the nonprofit Secure Justice and its leader, Brian Hofer, sued Oakland over the reports of data sharing. The suit alleges that the department’s data was made accessible to at least six federal agencies and a number of non-California state and local agencies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A month prior, Attorney General Rob Bonta \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-bonta-sues-el-cajon-illegally-sharing-license-plate-data-out\">sued the city of El Cajon\u003c/a> in San Diego County over similar Flock data sharing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11984097\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11984097\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A man with a fluorescent yellow coat holds a black machine.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A Flock Safety worker holds up a new automated license plate reader that was being installed in East San José on Tuesday, April 23, 2024. \u003ccite>(Joseph Geha/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As part of Flock’s services, it offers contracted agencies multiple data sharing options: a “National Lookup,” which allows two-way access to data between all Flock Safety customers who have opted in; a “State Lookup,” which creates a similar arrangement with other Flock customers only in their home state; and a 1:1 sharing option, which requires customers to add agencies they would like to share data with individually.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oakland has previously said that its license-plate reader data would not be made accessible outside OPD due to privacy concerns, but city documents show that the data was made accessible and shared with at least six federal and a number of non-California state and local agencies, according to Hofer’s lawsuit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The city has been using a network of 290 Flock cameras along highways and high-traffic areas to aid in police investigations since March 2024. Around the same time, departments across the Bay Area \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11989977/san-franciscos-new-license-plate-readers-are-leading-to-arrests-and-concerns-about-privacy\">entered similar contracts\u003c/a> with Flock as part of a push to crack down on crime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Last month, OPD proposed a two-year, $2.25 million contract for Flock to maintain the existing camera network and allow police to access private cameras in the company’s system when the current contract ends in February.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The four-member Public Safety Committee deadlocked, with Councilmembers Charlene Wang and Ken Houston voting in favor and Councilmembers Rowena Brown and Fife voting against it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the meeting, Fife said she feared the data “falling into the hands of bad actors that have a track record” of working with agencies involved in immigration enforcement. She suggested that the department consider other vendors who could provide similar technology to use instead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the proposal was brought back to the Rules Committee this week, Councilmembers Kevin Jenkins and Janani Ramachandran, along with Brown, voted in favor of agendizing the contract vote, while Fife lodged the sole vote against.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I believe that we can use cameras for public safety tools, but this vendor has shown time and time again that they will just thwart the rule of law in cities and states all over the nation,” Fife said Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In public comment during Thursday’s meeting, Councilmember Houston voiced support for the plan, and representatives from Councilmember Zac Unger and Wang’s office also supported moving the vote forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s slated for a vote at the full council on Tuesday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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"tagline": "Art is where you find it",
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"soldout": {
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