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"content": "\u003cp>Class is back in session at OUSD schools this week, with one notable change: A strict phone-free policy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>KQED’s Katie DeBenedetti explains how a statewide mandate has pushed districts across the Bay to pass their own policies banning or restricting phones, and how it’s playing out in Oakland. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8565102522\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12094226/ousd-cellphone-ban-for-students-takes-effect-on-the-first-day-of-the-school-year\">OUSD Cellphone Ban for Students Takes Effect on the First Day of the School Year\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Episode transcript\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript is computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:00] \u003c/em>I’m Ericka Cruz-Gavarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. I remember about a year ago, I walked into a high school classroom and I was so shocked to find students with AirPods in, phones out on the desks, like so explicitly out. High school me could have never imagined that becoming the norm. But now, phone-free policies at schools have made a comeback. Oakland Unified has banned phones in schools across all grade levels. And districts across the state are banning or limiting phones as well. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriel Khan: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:44] \u003c/em>Although it’s not a silver bullet, I think it is like a necessary condition for a focused classroom that phones are not stealing young people’s attention. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:54] \u003c/em>Today, California’s push towards phone-free schools and what that looks like in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:08] \u003c/em>So Katie, it’s the first week of school for Oakland Unified School District students and they came to school with a brand new cell phone policy. Oh, what is it exactly? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:20] \u003c/em>When kids walked into school on Monday, one of the first things that will now be part of every morning is putting their phones away for the whole day. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:30] \u003c/em>Katie DeBenedetti is a reporter for KQED. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:34] \u003c/em>That varies by school site, but in most elementary schools, they’ll have a lock box at the front of their classroom, and they’ll to put their phones in it for the day. And then in middle schools and high schools, they are going to be issued these pouches called Yondr pouches. They’re like canvas bags with a magnet at the top that locks during the day, their first period teacher, at least last year during the pilot phase was the person that kind of went around and made sure everyone. Had their pouch closed with their phone in it at the beginning of the day. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:08] \u003c/em>This is something that is happening at other Bay Area schools in a bunch of different ways as well. Why is this happening? Why are we seeing this sort of wave of no phone policy that schools happening across California? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:21] \u003c/em>In 2024, Governor Gavin Newsom signed the Phone Free School Act, which basically requires all school districts to restrict or prohibit cell phone use, and that went into effect this July. The reasoning behind that was there was research showing that less phones was better for learning, better for attention, and also for kids’ mental health. So… OUSD’s ban is on the stricter side. They’re gonna be a bell-to-bell ban for all students, but you’re right, a lot of Bay Area districts are adopting similar policies. The San Mateo Foster City School District has been using yonder pouches for a couple years, actually, and a couple of high schools on the peninsula have as well. Up in Marin and Tamm Unified School District, they’re introducing a very similar lockable box that are individual for students. And then there are a lot of other districts that don’t have these full bans. So San Francisco actually voted to kind of keep their existing cell phone policy, which is just that mobile communication devices have to be turned off, have to put away during instructional time and passing periods. A lot of Bay Area districts have also put in place these like similar less restrictive rules, though they vary. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:40] \u003c/em>And you mentioned OUSD has one of the more stricter phone policies. What was their rationale behind this specific cell phone band that they went for with these Yondr pouches? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:52] \u003c/em>Yeah, so when administrators were explaining why, you know, full ban versus partial van, they said it’s first of all just for consistency. You know, it’s a little bit easier for kids to understand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denise Saddler: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:03] \u003c/em>We want our students to be focused on learning in the classroom.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:08] \u003c/em>Here’s what Superintendent Denise Saddler had to say about the phone policy. That was a clip from ABC 7. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denise Saddler: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:15] \u003c/em>We also see this policy as a way to deal with some of the social media issues that come up, particularly in middle and high school, quite frankly, you know, bullying and some of the issues that have caused challenges for our students. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:30] \u003c/em>Also, it kind of keeps people interacting during passing periods, during lunch, connecting face-to-face throughout the school day, and it eliminates distractions. Even if you see a text while you’re heading to class or at the lunch table, you might be still thinking about it when you’re in class wondering, am I gonna be able to respond again? But if you just wait until after school to see it to begin with, it’s supposed to be less distracting. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:56] \u003c/em>What has the reaction been from students and parents at OUSD so far? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:01] \u003c/em>I think it’s been somewhat mixed. I think, you know, parents on the first day of school kind of told us that they’re happy that their kids will hopefully be less distracted. What are your thoughts on this new no cell phone policy? One parent, Chris Connolly, spoke with our colleague Farida Jabvala-Romero on the first day at school. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Connolly: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:21] \u003c/em>Personally, I am quite happy about it. I think it will be great for the kids, especially the high schoolers, who can easily be distracted by phones all day. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:33] \u003c/em>Some of them did have some safety concerns and that was really echoed by a student I talked to, Blake Rodgers. She’s an Oakland Tech senior. I do understand. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Blake Rodgers: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:43] \u003c/em>I understand that phones create distractions in classrooms, but I do think that the safety issues that have been like pretty prevalent recently outweigh that goal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:58] \u003c/em>She went to Skyline High School last year where there was a shooting on campus in the fall and she says it’s scary to think about not having access to her phone if something like that happens again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Blake Rodgers: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:10] \u003c/em>Its really hard to get in contact with people, even with your phone, because we’re not always sure what’s going on without a phone. I think people will be completely left in the dark and that is a scary thing to be in. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:25] \u003c/em>That is kind of interesting and also a little chilling that sort of the main concern that you’re hearing against these bands is this idea of safety. And I have to imagine like school shootings are probably also top of mind for folks as well. How does OUSD respond to that criticism?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:44] \u003c/em>Yeah, so as part of the rule, OUSD says that students will be able to access their phones if there’s a genuine health or safety emergency or if a teacher or administrator or doctor authorizes it. So there are exceptions in emergencies. And also, administrators have said that the ban could actually help reduce misinformation spread during emergencies or even prevent conflict escalation that could be happening on social media or group messaging. So I think it could go, you know, a couple different ways. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:26] \u003c/em>We’ll have more with KQED’s Katie DiBenedetti right after this break. By the way, if you appreciate the local deep dives that we bring you on the bay, consider becoming a KQED sustaining member. Sustaining members really are the backbone of what we do here at KQED. Just go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. And thank you so much. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:01] \u003c/em>I mean, the reaction seems a little mixed, but I just have to imagine it’s overall, maybe a good thing that kids don’t have access to their phones at schools, maybe. I mean do we know whether bands like these actually work? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:17] \u003c/em>The research is pretty new because a lot of these bans are just in the last couple of years. But one of the biggest studies that’s come out so far showed that schools that had these strict bans noticed a decrease in student phone use. But they haven’t seen all of the behavioral or academic results that they had kind of hoped for. So in some cases, suspensions actually went up in the immediate period after the ban. Test scores haven’t, you know, had a mark. Improvement. But again, these are still pretty new and teachers at least in Oakland seem pretty excited about it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriel Khan: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:55] \u003c/em>Phones are engineered to take people’s attention and specifically young people’s intention. And so they really have no place in a focused classroom. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:04] \u003c/em>I talked to Gabriel Kahn, who teaches at Life Academy, and he said he and his colleagues have been really impressed. They’re noticing students are more attentive, they’re less distracted. One thing that he said that was funny to me is they’re using the bathroom a lot less.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriel Khan: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:21] \u003c/em>I would say bathroom use decreased in my classroom by 80%. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:26] \u003c/em>Because I guess that’s one of those places where teachers can’t be watching, so kids would often take their phone to the bathroom for a break. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriel Khan: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:35] \u003c/em>We do a pretty good job of making sure kids aren’t on their phones in the room, but when they go to the bathroom, it’s an unmonitored space, and if their phone isn’t put away in a yonder pouch, you can best believe that they’re on their phone when they take their bathroom break. I believe there’s a direct correlation between our instigating the yonderpouch policy and the massive decrease in bathroom use that we saw because there was no phone motivation to go to bathroom. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:04] \u003c/em>I feel like adults banning something doesn’t always mean that that thing fully goes away. There’s often ways that young people will find work around. Have we seen anything like that when it comes to this no phone policy at schools? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:19] \u003c/em>Yeah, that’s definitely something I was curious about, and it did not take me long to find how students are getting around these bands. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tik Tok: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:27] \u003c/em>Alright guys so I just got back from school and guess what they’re making us put our phones in these little pouches right here. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:36] \u003c/em>You know, I just did a quick TikTok search and found that kids are already sharing ways to open their pouches. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tik Tok: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:43] \u003c/em>So today, we’re gonna be making a tutorial so everybody can have their phone at school. Everybody and their mom’s gonna have their phones, all right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:51] \u003c/em>One of them involves sticking two pencils on the sides of the magnet and like banging the pouch against something hard. And that has like a million views. So kids are learning pretty quickly how to get around these rules. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:06] \u003c/em>The irony of that also, of them recording themselves doing this. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:13] \u003c/em>How does this compare to your experience with your phone in high school? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:17] \u003c/em>There were really no restrictions on it. Our school blocked like certain apps, but even then we knew how to get around that, VPN apps, whatever. So I think it’s a familiar sight to see. Yeah, totally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:31] \u003c/em>Well, Katie, the school year is I guess just starting and we’ll have to kind of see how this goes, but what big questions are you thinking about around these bands going forward? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:42] \u003c/em>Yeah, I mean, I’m definitely interested to see, you know, how many kids are able to kind of get around the bands. But I’m also excited to see after a couple years, if there is any effect on test scores on how much students are learning and mental health. I think that would be really interesting to see if it really is better for kids not to be staring down at their screens during lunch. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:07] \u003c/em>Yeah and I don’t know, maybe one day our classrooms will go back to like pen and paper? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:13] \u003c/em>We have the option, we have all the tools to do that, so we’ll see. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:20] \u003c/em>Well, Katie, thank you so much for chatting with me about this. Appreciate it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:24] \u003c/em>Thanks so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Class is back in session at OUSD schools this week, with one notable change: A strict phone-free policy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Class is back in session at OUSD schools this week, with one notable change: A strict phone-free policy. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>KQED’s Katie DeBenedetti explains how a statewide mandate has pushed districts across the Bay to pass their own policies banning or restricting phones, and how it’s playing out in Oakland. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>KQED’s Katie DeBenedetti explains how a statewide mandate has pushed districts across the Bay to pass their own policies banning or restricting phones, and how it’s playing out in Oakland. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12094226/ousd-cellphone-ban-for-students-takes-effect-on-the-first-day-of-the-school-year\">OUSD Cellphone Ban for Students Takes Effect on the First Day of the School Year\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Episode transcript\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript is computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:00] \u003c/em>I’m Ericka Cruz-Gavarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. I remember about a year ago, I walked into a high school classroom and I was so shocked to find students with AirPods in, phones out on the desks, like so explicitly out. High school me could have never imagined that becoming the norm. But now, phone-free policies at schools have made a comeback. Oakland Unified has banned phones in schools across all grade levels. And districts across the state are banning or limiting phones as well. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:00] \u003c/em>I’m Ericka Cruz-Gavarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. I remember about a year ago, I walked into a high school classroom and I was so shocked to find students with AirPods in, phones out on the desks, like so explicitly out. High school me could have never imagined that becoming the norm. But now, phone-free policies at schools have made a comeback. Oakland Unified has banned phones in schools across all grade levels. And districts across the state are banning or limiting phones as well. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriel Khan: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:44] \u003c/em>Although it’s not a silver bullet, I think it is like a necessary condition for a focused classroom that phones are not stealing young people’s attention. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriel Khan: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:44] \u003c/em>Although it’s not a silver bullet, I think it is like a necessary condition for a focused classroom that phones are not stealing young people’s attention. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:54] \u003c/em>Today, California’s push towards phone-free schools and what that looks like in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:54] \u003c/em>Today, California’s push towards phone-free schools and what that looks like in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:08] \u003c/em>So Katie, it’s the first week of school for Oakland Unified School District students and they came to school with a brand new cell phone policy. Oh, what is it exactly? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:08] \u003c/em>So Katie, it’s the first week of school for Oakland Unified School District students and they came to school with a brand new cell phone policy. Oh, what is it exactly? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:20] \u003c/em>When kids walked into school on Monday, one of the first things that will now be part of every morning is putting their phones away for the whole day. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:20] \u003c/em>When kids walked into school on Monday, one of the first things that will now be part of every morning is putting their phones away for the whole day. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:30] \u003c/em>Katie DeBenedetti is a reporter for KQED. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:30] \u003c/em>Katie DeBenedetti is a reporter for KQED. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:34] \u003c/em>That varies by school site, but in most elementary schools, they’ll have a lock box at the front of their classroom, and they’ll to put their phones in it for the day. And then in middle schools and high schools, they are going to be issued these pouches called Yondr pouches. They’re like canvas bags with a magnet at the top that locks during the day, their first period teacher, at least last year during the pilot phase was the person that kind of went around and made sure everyone. Had their pouch closed with their phone in it at the beginning of the day. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:34] \u003c/em>That varies by school site, but in most elementary schools, they’ll have a lock box at the front of their classroom, and they’ll to put their phones in it for the day. And then in middle schools and high schools, they are going to be issued these pouches called Yondr pouches. They’re like canvas bags with a magnet at the top that locks during the day, their first period teacher, at least last year during the pilot phase was the person that kind of went around and made sure everyone. Had their pouch closed with their phone in it at the beginning of the day. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:08] \u003c/em>This is something that is happening at other Bay Area schools in a bunch of different ways as well. Why is this happening? Why are we seeing this sort of wave of no phone policy that schools happening across California? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:08] \u003c/em>This is something that is happening at other Bay Area schools in a bunch of different ways as well. Why is this happening? Why are we seeing this sort of wave of no phone policy that schools happening across California? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:21] \u003c/em>In 2024, Governor Gavin Newsom signed the Phone Free School Act, which basically requires all school districts to restrict or prohibit cell phone use, and that went into effect this July. The reasoning behind that was there was research showing that less phones was better for learning, better for attention, and also for kids’ mental health. So… OUSD’s ban is on the stricter side. They’re gonna be a bell-to-bell ban for all students, but you’re right, a lot of Bay Area districts are adopting similar policies. The San Mateo Foster City School District has been using yonder pouches for a couple years, actually, and a couple of high schools on the peninsula have as well. Up in Marin and Tamm Unified School District, they’re introducing a very similar lockable box that are individual for students. And then there are a lot of other districts that don’t have these full bans. So San Francisco actually voted to kind of keep their existing cell phone policy, which is just that mobile communication devices have to be turned off, have to put away during instructional time and passing periods. A lot of Bay Area districts have also put in place these like similar less restrictive rules, though they vary. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:21] \u003c/em>In 2024, Governor Gavin Newsom signed the Phone Free School Act, which basically requires all school districts to restrict or prohibit cell phone use, and that went into effect this July. The reasoning behind that was there was research showing that less phones was better for learning, better for attention, and also for kids’ mental health. So… OUSD’s ban is on the stricter side. They’re gonna be a bell-to-bell ban for all students, but you’re right, a lot of Bay Area districts are adopting similar policies. The San Mateo Foster City School District has been using yonder pouches for a couple years, actually, and a couple of high schools on the peninsula have as well. Up in Marin and Tamm Unified School District, they’re introducing a very similar lockable box that are individual for students. And then there are a lot of other districts that don’t have these full bans. So San Francisco actually voted to kind of keep their existing cell phone policy, which is just that mobile communication devices have to be turned off, have to put away during instructional time and passing periods. A lot of Bay Area districts have also put in place these like similar less restrictive rules, though they vary. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:40] \u003c/em>And you mentioned OUSD has one of the more stricter phone policies. What was their rationale behind this specific cell phone band that they went for with these Yondr pouches? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:40] \u003c/em>And you mentioned OUSD has one of the more stricter phone policies. What was their rationale behind this specific cell phone band that they went for with these Yondr pouches? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:52] \u003c/em>Yeah, so when administrators were explaining why, you know, full ban versus partial van, they said it’s first of all just for consistency. You know, it’s a little bit easier for kids to understand.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:52] \u003c/em>Yeah, so when administrators were explaining why, you know, full ban versus partial van, they said it’s first of all just for consistency. You know, it’s a little bit easier for kids to understand.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denise Saddler: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:03] \u003c/em>We want our students to be focused on learning in the classroom.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denise Saddler: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:03] \u003c/em>We want our students to be focused on learning in the classroom.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:08] \u003c/em>Here’s what Superintendent Denise Saddler had to say about the phone policy. That was a clip from ABC 7. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:08] \u003c/em>Here’s what Superintendent Denise Saddler had to say about the phone policy. That was a clip from ABC 7. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denise Saddler: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:15] \u003c/em>We also see this policy as a way to deal with some of the social media issues that come up, particularly in middle and high school, quite frankly, you know, bullying and some of the issues that have caused challenges for our students. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denise Saddler: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:15] \u003c/em>We also see this policy as a way to deal with some of the social media issues that come up, particularly in middle and high school, quite frankly, you know, bullying and some of the issues that have caused challenges for our students. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:30] \u003c/em>Also, it kind of keeps people interacting during passing periods, during lunch, connecting face-to-face throughout the school day, and it eliminates distractions. Even if you see a text while you’re heading to class or at the lunch table, you might be still thinking about it when you’re in class wondering, am I gonna be able to respond again? But if you just wait until after school to see it to begin with, it’s supposed to be less distracting. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:30] \u003c/em>Also, it kind of keeps people interacting during passing periods, during lunch, connecting face-to-face throughout the school day, and it eliminates distractions. Even if you see a text while you’re heading to class or at the lunch table, you might be still thinking about it when you’re in class wondering, am I gonna be able to respond again? But if you just wait until after school to see it to begin with, it’s supposed to be less distracting. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:56] \u003c/em>What has the reaction been from students and parents at OUSD so far? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:56] \u003c/em>What has the reaction been from students and parents at OUSD so far? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:01] \u003c/em>I think it’s been somewhat mixed. I think, you know, parents on the first day of school kind of told us that they’re happy that their kids will hopefully be less distracted. What are your thoughts on this new no cell phone policy? One parent, Chris Connolly, spoke with our colleague Farida Jabvala-Romero on the first day at school. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:01] \u003c/em>I think it’s been somewhat mixed. I think, you know, parents on the first day of school kind of told us that they’re happy that their kids will hopefully be less distracted. What are your thoughts on this new no cell phone policy? One parent, Chris Connolly, spoke with our colleague Farida Jabvala-Romero on the first day at school. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Connolly: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:21] \u003c/em>Personally, I am quite happy about it. I think it will be great for the kids, especially the high schoolers, who can easily be distracted by phones all day. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Connolly: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:21] \u003c/em>Personally, I am quite happy about it. I think it will be great for the kids, especially the high schoolers, who can easily be distracted by phones all day. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:33] \u003c/em>Some of them did have some safety concerns and that was really echoed by a student I talked to, Blake Rodgers. She’s an Oakland Tech senior. I do understand. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:33] \u003c/em>Some of them did have some safety concerns and that was really echoed by a student I talked to, Blake Rodgers. She’s an Oakland Tech senior. I do understand. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Blake Rodgers: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:43] \u003c/em>I understand that phones create distractions in classrooms, but I do think that the safety issues that have been like pretty prevalent recently outweigh that goal. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Blake Rodgers: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:43] \u003c/em>I understand that phones create distractions in classrooms, but I do think that the safety issues that have been like pretty prevalent recently outweigh that goal. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:58] \u003c/em>She went to Skyline High School last year where there was a shooting on campus in the fall and she says it’s scary to think about not having access to her phone if something like that happens again.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:58] \u003c/em>She went to Skyline High School last year where there was a shooting on campus in the fall and she says it’s scary to think about not having access to her phone if something like that happens again.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Blake Rodgers: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:10] \u003c/em>Its really hard to get in contact with people, even with your phone, because we’re not always sure what’s going on without a phone. I think people will be completely left in the dark and that is a scary thing to be in. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Blake Rodgers: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:10] \u003c/em>Its really hard to get in contact with people, even with your phone, because we’re not always sure what’s going on without a phone. I think people will be completely left in the dark and that is a scary thing to be in. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:25] \u003c/em>That is kind of interesting and also a little chilling that sort of the main concern that you’re hearing against these bands is this idea of safety. And I have to imagine like school shootings are probably also top of mind for folks as well. How does OUSD respond to that criticism?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:25] \u003c/em>That is kind of interesting and also a little chilling that sort of the main concern that you’re hearing against these bands is this idea of safety. And I have to imagine like school shootings are probably also top of mind for folks as well. How does OUSD respond to that criticism?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:44] \u003c/em>Yeah, so as part of the rule, OUSD says that students will be able to access their phones if there’s a genuine health or safety emergency or if a teacher or administrator or doctor authorizes it. So there are exceptions in emergencies. And also, administrators have said that the ban could actually help reduce misinformation spread during emergencies or even prevent conflict escalation that could be happening on social media or group messaging. So I think it could go, you know, a couple different ways. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:44] \u003c/em>Yeah, so as part of the rule, OUSD says that students will be able to access their phones if there’s a genuine health or safety emergency or if a teacher or administrator or doctor authorizes it. So there are exceptions in emergencies. And also, administrators have said that the ban could actually help reduce misinformation spread during emergencies or even prevent conflict escalation that could be happening on social media or group messaging. So I think it could go, you know, a couple different ways. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:26] \u003c/em>We’ll have more with KQED’s Katie DiBenedetti right after this break. By the way, if you appreciate the local deep dives that we bring you on the bay, consider becoming a KQED sustaining member. Sustaining members really are the backbone of what we do here at KQED. Just go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. And thank you so much. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:26] \u003c/em>We’ll have more with KQED’s Katie DiBenedetti right after this break. By the way, if you appreciate the local deep dives that we bring you on the bay, consider becoming a KQED sustaining member. Sustaining members really are the backbone of what we do here at KQED. Just go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. And thank you so much. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:01] \u003c/em>I mean, the reaction seems a little mixed, but I just have to imagine it’s overall, maybe a good thing that kids don’t have access to their phones at schools, maybe. I mean do we know whether bands like these actually work? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:01] \u003c/em>I mean, the reaction seems a little mixed, but I just have to imagine it’s overall, maybe a good thing that kids don’t have access to their phones at schools, maybe. I mean do we know whether bands like these actually work? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:17] \u003c/em>The research is pretty new because a lot of these bans are just in the last couple of years. But one of the biggest studies that’s come out so far showed that schools that had these strict bans noticed a decrease in student phone use. But they haven’t seen all of the behavioral or academic results that they had kind of hoped for. So in some cases, suspensions actually went up in the immediate period after the ban. Test scores haven’t, you know, had a mark. Improvement. But again, these are still pretty new and teachers at least in Oakland seem pretty excited about it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:17] \u003c/em>The research is pretty new because a lot of these bans are just in the last couple of years. But one of the biggest studies that’s come out so far showed that schools that had these strict bans noticed a decrease in student phone use. But they haven’t seen all of the behavioral or academic results that they had kind of hoped for. So in some cases, suspensions actually went up in the immediate period after the ban. Test scores haven’t, you know, had a mark. Improvement. But again, these are still pretty new and teachers at least in Oakland seem pretty excited about it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriel Khan: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:55] \u003c/em>Phones are engineered to take people’s attention and specifically young people’s intention. And so they really have no place in a focused classroom. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriel Khan: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:55] \u003c/em>Phones are engineered to take people’s attention and specifically young people’s intention. And so they really have no place in a focused classroom. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:04] \u003c/em>I talked to Gabriel Kahn, who teaches at Life Academy, and he said he and his colleagues have been really impressed. They’re noticing students are more attentive, they’re less distracted. One thing that he said that was funny to me is they’re using the bathroom a lot less.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:04] \u003c/em>I talked to Gabriel Kahn, who teaches at Life Academy, and he said he and his colleagues have been really impressed. They’re noticing students are more attentive, they’re less distracted. One thing that he said that was funny to me is they’re using the bathroom a lot less.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriel Khan: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:21] \u003c/em>I would say bathroom use decreased in my classroom by 80%. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriel Khan: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:21] \u003c/em>I would say bathroom use decreased in my classroom by 80%. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:26] \u003c/em>Because I guess that’s one of those places where teachers can’t be watching, so kids would often take their phone to the bathroom for a break. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:26] \u003c/em>Because I guess that’s one of those places where teachers can’t be watching, so kids would often take their phone to the bathroom for a break. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriel Khan: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:35] \u003c/em>We do a pretty good job of making sure kids aren’t on their phones in the room, but when they go to the bathroom, it’s an unmonitored space, and if their phone isn’t put away in a yonder pouch, you can best believe that they’re on their phone when they take their bathroom break. I believe there’s a direct correlation between our instigating the yonderpouch policy and the massive decrease in bathroom use that we saw because there was no phone motivation to go to bathroom. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriel Khan: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:35] \u003c/em>We do a pretty good job of making sure kids aren’t on their phones in the room, but when they go to the bathroom, it’s an unmonitored space, and if their phone isn’t put away in a yonder pouch, you can best believe that they’re on their phone when they take their bathroom break. I believe there’s a direct correlation between our instigating the yonderpouch policy and the massive decrease in bathroom use that we saw because there was no phone motivation to go to bathroom. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:04] \u003c/em>I feel like adults banning something doesn’t always mean that that thing fully goes away. There’s often ways that young people will find work around. Have we seen anything like that when it comes to this no phone policy at schools? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:04] \u003c/em>I feel like adults banning something doesn’t always mean that that thing fully goes away. There’s often ways that young people will find work around. Have we seen anything like that when it comes to this no phone policy at schools? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:19] \u003c/em>Yeah, that’s definitely something I was curious about, and it did not take me long to find how students are getting around these bands. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:19] \u003c/em>Yeah, that’s definitely something I was curious about, and it did not take me long to find how students are getting around these bands. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tik Tok: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:27] \u003c/em>Alright guys so I just got back from school and guess what they’re making us put our phones in these little pouches right here. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tik Tok: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:27] \u003c/em>Alright guys so I just got back from school and guess what they’re making us put our phones in these little pouches right here. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:36] \u003c/em>You know, I just did a quick TikTok search and found that kids are already sharing ways to open their pouches. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:36] \u003c/em>You know, I just did a quick TikTok search and found that kids are already sharing ways to open their pouches. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tik Tok: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:43] \u003c/em>So today, we’re gonna be making a tutorial so everybody can have their phone at school. Everybody and their mom’s gonna have their phones, all right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tik Tok: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:43] \u003c/em>So today, we’re gonna be making a tutorial so everybody can have their phone at school. Everybody and their mom’s gonna have their phones, all right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:51] \u003c/em>One of them involves sticking two pencils on the sides of the magnet and like banging the pouch against something hard. And that has like a million views. So kids are learning pretty quickly how to get around these rules. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:51] \u003c/em>One of them involves sticking two pencils on the sides of the magnet and like banging the pouch against something hard. And that has like a million views. So kids are learning pretty quickly how to get around these rules. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:06] \u003c/em>The irony of that also, of them recording themselves doing this. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:06] \u003c/em>The irony of that also, of them recording themselves doing this. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:13] \u003c/em>How does this compare to your experience with your phone in high school? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:13] \u003c/em>How does this compare to your experience with your phone in high school? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:17] \u003c/em>There were really no restrictions on it. Our school blocked like certain apps, but even then we knew how to get around that, VPN apps, whatever. So I think it’s a familiar sight to see. Yeah, totally. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:17] \u003c/em>There were really no restrictions on it. Our school blocked like certain apps, but even then we knew how to get around that, VPN apps, whatever. So I think it’s a familiar sight to see. Yeah, totally. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:31] \u003c/em>Well, Katie, the school year is I guess just starting and we’ll have to kind of see how this goes, but what big questions are you thinking about around these bands going forward? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:31] \u003c/em>Well, Katie, the school year is I guess just starting and we’ll have to kind of see how this goes, but what big questions are you thinking about around these bands going forward? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:42] \u003c/em>Yeah, I mean, I’m definitely interested to see, you know, how many kids are able to kind of get around the bands. But I’m also excited to see after a couple years, if there is any effect on test scores on how much students are learning and mental health. I think that would be really interesting to see if it really is better for kids not to be staring down at their screens during lunch. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:42] \u003c/em>Yeah, I mean, I’m definitely interested to see, you know, how many kids are able to kind of get around the bands. But I’m also excited to see after a couple years, if there is any effect on test scores on how much students are learning and mental health. I think that would be really interesting to see if it really is better for kids not to be staring down at their screens during lunch. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:07] \u003c/em>Yeah and I don’t know, maybe one day our classrooms will go back to like pen and paper? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:07] \u003c/em>Yeah and I don’t know, maybe one day our classrooms will go back to like pen and paper? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:13] \u003c/em>We have the option, we have all the tools to do that, so we’ll see. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:13] \u003c/em>We have the option, we have all the tools to do that, so we’ll see. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:20] \u003c/em>Well, Katie, thank you so much for chatting with me about this. Appreciate it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:20] \u003c/em>Well, Katie, thank you so much for chatting with me about this. Appreciate it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:24] \u003c/em>Thanks so much.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:24] \u003c/em>Thanks so much.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Class is back in session at OUSD schools this week, with one notable change: A strict phone-free policy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>KQED’s Katie DeBenedetti explains how a statewide mandate has pushed districts across the Bay to pass their own policies banning or restricting phones, and how it’s playing out in Oakland. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8565102522\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12094226/ousd-cellphone-ban-for-students-takes-effect-on-the-first-day-of-the-school-year\">OUSD Cellphone Ban for Students Takes Effect on the First Day of the School Year\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Episode transcript\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript is computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:00] \u003c/em>I’m Ericka Cruz-Gavarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. I remember about a year ago, I walked into a high school classroom and I was so shocked to find students with AirPods in, phones out on the desks, like so explicitly out. High school me could have never imagined that becoming the norm. But now, phone-free policies at schools have made a comeback. Oakland Unified has banned phones in schools across all grade levels. And districts across the state are banning or limiting phones as well. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriel Khan: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:44] \u003c/em>Although it’s not a silver bullet, I think it is like a necessary condition for a focused classroom that phones are not stealing young people’s attention. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:54] \u003c/em>Today, California’s push towards phone-free schools and what that looks like in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:08] \u003c/em>So Katie, it’s the first week of school for Oakland Unified School District students and they came to school with a brand new cell phone policy. Oh, what is it exactly? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:20] \u003c/em>When kids walked into school on Monday, one of the first things that will now be part of every morning is putting their phones away for the whole day. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:30] \u003c/em>Katie DeBenedetti is a reporter for KQED. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:34] \u003c/em>That varies by school site, but in most elementary schools, they’ll have a lock box at the front of their classroom, and they’ll to put their phones in it for the day. And then in middle schools and high schools, they are going to be issued these pouches called Yondr pouches. They’re like canvas bags with a magnet at the top that locks during the day, their first period teacher, at least last year during the pilot phase was the person that kind of went around and made sure everyone. Had their pouch closed with their phone in it at the beginning of the day. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:08] \u003c/em>This is something that is happening at other Bay Area schools in a bunch of different ways as well. Why is this happening? Why are we seeing this sort of wave of no phone policy that schools happening across California? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:21] \u003c/em>In 2024, Governor Gavin Newsom signed the Phone Free School Act, which basically requires all school districts to restrict or prohibit cell phone use, and that went into effect this July. The reasoning behind that was there was research showing that less phones was better for learning, better for attention, and also for kids’ mental health. So… OUSD’s ban is on the stricter side. They’re gonna be a bell-to-bell ban for all students, but you’re right, a lot of Bay Area districts are adopting similar policies. The San Mateo Foster City School District has been using yonder pouches for a couple years, actually, and a couple of high schools on the peninsula have as well. Up in Marin and Tamm Unified School District, they’re introducing a very similar lockable box that are individual for students. And then there are a lot of other districts that don’t have these full bans. So San Francisco actually voted to kind of keep their existing cell phone policy, which is just that mobile communication devices have to be turned off, have to put away during instructional time and passing periods. A lot of Bay Area districts have also put in place these like similar less restrictive rules, though they vary. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:40] \u003c/em>And you mentioned OUSD has one of the more stricter phone policies. What was their rationale behind this specific cell phone band that they went for with these Yondr pouches? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:52] \u003c/em>Yeah, so when administrators were explaining why, you know, full ban versus partial van, they said it’s first of all just for consistency. You know, it’s a little bit easier for kids to understand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denise Saddler: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:03] \u003c/em>We want our students to be focused on learning in the classroom.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:08] \u003c/em>Here’s what Superintendent Denise Saddler had to say about the phone policy. That was a clip from ABC 7. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Denise Saddler: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:15] \u003c/em>We also see this policy as a way to deal with some of the social media issues that come up, particularly in middle and high school, quite frankly, you know, bullying and some of the issues that have caused challenges for our students. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:30] \u003c/em>Also, it kind of keeps people interacting during passing periods, during lunch, connecting face-to-face throughout the school day, and it eliminates distractions. Even if you see a text while you’re heading to class or at the lunch table, you might be still thinking about it when you’re in class wondering, am I gonna be able to respond again? But if you just wait until after school to see it to begin with, it’s supposed to be less distracting. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:56] \u003c/em>What has the reaction been from students and parents at OUSD so far? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:01] \u003c/em>I think it’s been somewhat mixed. I think, you know, parents on the first day of school kind of told us that they’re happy that their kids will hopefully be less distracted. What are your thoughts on this new no cell phone policy? One parent, Chris Connolly, spoke with our colleague Farida Jabvala-Romero on the first day at school. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chris Connolly: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:21] \u003c/em>Personally, I am quite happy about it. I think it will be great for the kids, especially the high schoolers, who can easily be distracted by phones all day. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:33] \u003c/em>Some of them did have some safety concerns and that was really echoed by a student I talked to, Blake Rodgers. She’s an Oakland Tech senior. I do understand. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Blake Rodgers: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:43] \u003c/em>I understand that phones create distractions in classrooms, but I do think that the safety issues that have been like pretty prevalent recently outweigh that goal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:58] \u003c/em>She went to Skyline High School last year where there was a shooting on campus in the fall and she says it’s scary to think about not having access to her phone if something like that happens again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Blake Rodgers: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:10] \u003c/em>Its really hard to get in contact with people, even with your phone, because we’re not always sure what’s going on without a phone. I think people will be completely left in the dark and that is a scary thing to be in. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:25] \u003c/em>That is kind of interesting and also a little chilling that sort of the main concern that you’re hearing against these bands is this idea of safety. And I have to imagine like school shootings are probably also top of mind for folks as well. How does OUSD respond to that criticism?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:44] \u003c/em>Yeah, so as part of the rule, OUSD says that students will be able to access their phones if there’s a genuine health or safety emergency or if a teacher or administrator or doctor authorizes it. So there are exceptions in emergencies. And also, administrators have said that the ban could actually help reduce misinformation spread during emergencies or even prevent conflict escalation that could be happening on social media or group messaging. So I think it could go, you know, a couple different ways. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:26] \u003c/em>We’ll have more with KQED’s Katie DiBenedetti right after this break. By the way, if you appreciate the local deep dives that we bring you on the bay, consider becoming a KQED sustaining member. Sustaining members really are the backbone of what we do here at KQED. Just go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. And thank you so much. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:01] \u003c/em>I mean, the reaction seems a little mixed, but I just have to imagine it’s overall, maybe a good thing that kids don’t have access to their phones at schools, maybe. I mean do we know whether bands like these actually work? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:17] \u003c/em>The research is pretty new because a lot of these bans are just in the last couple of years. But one of the biggest studies that’s come out so far showed that schools that had these strict bans noticed a decrease in student phone use. But they haven’t seen all of the behavioral or academic results that they had kind of hoped for. So in some cases, suspensions actually went up in the immediate period after the ban. Test scores haven’t, you know, had a mark. Improvement. But again, these are still pretty new and teachers at least in Oakland seem pretty excited about it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriel Khan: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:55] \u003c/em>Phones are engineered to take people’s attention and specifically young people’s intention. And so they really have no place in a focused classroom. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:04] \u003c/em>I talked to Gabriel Kahn, who teaches at Life Academy, and he said he and his colleagues have been really impressed. They’re noticing students are more attentive, they’re less distracted. One thing that he said that was funny to me is they’re using the bathroom a lot less.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriel Khan: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:21] \u003c/em>I would say bathroom use decreased in my classroom by 80%. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:26] \u003c/em>Because I guess that’s one of those places where teachers can’t be watching, so kids would often take their phone to the bathroom for a break. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriel Khan: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:35] \u003c/em>We do a pretty good job of making sure kids aren’t on their phones in the room, but when they go to the bathroom, it’s an unmonitored space, and if their phone isn’t put away in a yonder pouch, you can best believe that they’re on their phone when they take their bathroom break. I believe there’s a direct correlation between our instigating the yonderpouch policy and the massive decrease in bathroom use that we saw because there was no phone motivation to go to bathroom. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:04] \u003c/em>I feel like adults banning something doesn’t always mean that that thing fully goes away. There’s often ways that young people will find work around. Have we seen anything like that when it comes to this no phone policy at schools? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:19] \u003c/em>Yeah, that’s definitely something I was curious about, and it did not take me long to find how students are getting around these bands. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tik Tok: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:27] \u003c/em>Alright guys so I just got back from school and guess what they’re making us put our phones in these little pouches right here. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:36] \u003c/em>You know, I just did a quick TikTok search and found that kids are already sharing ways to open their pouches. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tik Tok: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:43] \u003c/em>So today, we’re gonna be making a tutorial so everybody can have their phone at school. Everybody and their mom’s gonna have their phones, all right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:51] \u003c/em>One of them involves sticking two pencils on the sides of the magnet and like banging the pouch against something hard. And that has like a million views. So kids are learning pretty quickly how to get around these rules. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:06] \u003c/em>The irony of that also, of them recording themselves doing this. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:13] \u003c/em>How does this compare to your experience with your phone in high school? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:17] \u003c/em>There were really no restrictions on it. Our school blocked like certain apps, but even then we knew how to get around that, VPN apps, whatever. So I think it’s a familiar sight to see. Yeah, totally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:31] \u003c/em>Well, Katie, the school year is I guess just starting and we’ll have to kind of see how this goes, but what big questions are you thinking about around these bands going forward? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:42] \u003c/em>Yeah, I mean, I’m definitely interested to see, you know, how many kids are able to kind of get around the bands. But I’m also excited to see after a couple years, if there is any effect on test scores on how much students are learning and mental health. I think that would be really interesting to see if it really is better for kids not to be staring down at their screens during lunch. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:07] \u003c/em>Yeah and I don’t know, maybe one day our classrooms will go back to like pen and paper? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:13] \u003c/em>We have the option, we have all the tools to do that, so we’ll see. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:20] \u003c/em>Well, Katie, thank you so much for chatting with me about this. Appreciate it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:24] \u003c/em>Thanks so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://transcript\">View full episode \u003c/a>\u003ca href=\"#transcript\">transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As AI tools spread through classrooms, many educators see a “cheating factory.” Kellogg Professor \u003ca href=\"https://sebastienmartin.info/\">\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin\u003c/strong>\u003c/a> sees things differently: as a chance to reinvent how and what we teach. In his operations management class, students trade PDFs for lifelike chatbots, log conversations with Socratic AI tutors, and use AI to explore the kinds of social and political dynamics that students normally have to learn on the job. But Martin also grapples with harder questions: What about public schools with fewer resources? When should kids use AI at all? And how can students stay hopeful and true to their own interests in a wildly uncertain future? (Part 1/2 in our back-to-school series.)\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Further Reading: \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/ai-is-teaching-the-next-generation-of-m-b-a-s-the-classic-case-study-a4eb4227\">AI Is Teaching the Next Generation of M.B.A.s the Classic Case Study\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"Transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> This is Life, Automated, the show that explores how to live, work, and make decisions in a world increasingly shaped by machines. By now, I’m sure you’re aware education has been hit hard by AI. It’s not exactly a secret why. You remember being a student. Maybe you are still a student. You work, you learn, you get your grade, your degree, and then you leave school better prepared for life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Or at least that was the deal. Today’s students essentially have the world’s greatest cheating machine right at their fingertips, and that part about needing to learn to prepare for life, says who? If AI can do it, will you ever even need to? So maybe it’s no surprise that students are some of the heaviest adopters of AI, a trend that AI companies are very happy to facilitate, thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And this puts educators in a tough place. I want to be upfront about this. Education is changing in ways we still don’t understand, and educators in universities, high schools, middle schools, are on the front lines. Many are not happy about AI. They didn’t ask for it, and they have real concerns that it will harm their students.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Next episode, we’ll go deep into the challenges they face. But today, something different. Today, we’ll be talking to someone who looks at generative AI tools like ChatGPT, Gemini, and Claude, and sees mostly opportunities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sébastien Martin is a colleague of mine here at Kellogg, an associate professor of operations. He studies AI, he teaches MBA students about AI, and in his operations management classroom, he’s replaced a lot of pen and paper-based activities with AI-powered simulations. In these simulations, rather than AI making it easier for students to finish whatever assignment is on hand, it slows them down, makes them work even harder.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I got to experience this firsthand. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I feel like maybe you’re not doing your part. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>Oh, she’s not happy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>She says, “I am doing my part. That’s a job. What I’m not gonna do is pretend the existing system works the way headquarters imagines.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sébastien believes that AI has already made him not just a better instructor, but a happier, more creative, more inspired one, and his students agree.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kellogg’s graduating class chose him as the winner of the 2026 David Bisenko Outstanding Professor of the Year Award. I’ve come to see Sébastien as a virtuoso of a strange new art form. And amidst the big, even existential challenges facing education, I think it’s important to tell these kinds of stories, too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love, and this is Life, Automated, a project from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>My conversation with Sébastien began with him telling me how, as soon as ChatGPT came on the scene, he got busy experimenting, trying to see if it could help him improve his operations management class. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> In a way, you know, when you have 140 students at the same time, for example, or even more, 200, it’s hard to have individualized conversations with everyone with my time, and I only have this time where it’s me with all the students at the same time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But if they all talk to an AI that personalize the conversation to their own background, I can task the AI to connect the class content with their background. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>The idea is that a student could feed their CV into an AI chatbot that had been trained on Sébastien’s course materials, and the AI would ask some probing questions, ultimately connecting the dots between a student’s individual work experience and interests and what the course would cover.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And this was kind of, was it to just get the student excited about the class? Was that kind of the point of this exercise? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> So the point was for them to know even before they take it why we think it’s good for them to be there. Which changes everything because if you have the attention of people as you even just get started, then communication just flows a little bit better. And if you think about it, there’s no way for me to do this without AI. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Sébastien was such an early adopter of the technology that he was using it before most of his students to solve problems that had nothing to do with AI at all. But it didn’t take too long for AI to start causing problems, too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>You know, AI came like a wrecking ball. And, you know, like, what’s even the meaning of a take-home exam anymore? You know, you can trust the students not to use ChatGPT, but we are at the point where you can just take a screenshot of the exam on your phone and get A+ for everything technical. And so it’s just unfair to ask the students to do it this way. And because, like, how do you even grade it, because some students would respect the rule and maybe a few will run out of time and ask the help of AI. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>It’s been well over three years since Sébastien started experimenting with AI in his classroom. And these days, nearly everything about his course looks pretty different. Some of these changes have been spurred by AI making it really, really easy for students to cheat. But Sébastien says that other changes are more about problems with the old ways of doing things. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>Think about our old ways to evaluate, right? I have students coming from so many different backgrounds that care about so many different things, and I have to have one exam that’s graded by people that don’t necessarily understand their background. And so what does it push us to do? It pushes us to standardization, to always asking, like, very abstract questions about things, or to focus on math instead of, like, deeper understanding about the world, because these can be evaluated more easily. I love math, but it becomes just an exercise in itself, like, almost like a Sudoku. At the end of the day, the exam is just asking them to manipulate numbers because this is what I can evaluate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So let’s get concrete here. With simple problem sets basically out the window, what does Sébastien’s class look like today? Well, for homework, Sébastien might require his students to converse with an AI tutor for maybe 30 minutes, walking through concepts and connecting them to their own experiences. That tutor might be trained in the Socratic method so that rather than giving answers like a standard chatbot, it pushes students to do the thinking themselves. Then, instead of turning in answers, students would upload a log of their chat to be graded pass or fail. Or maybe the tutoring goes the other way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> The homework I just gave, like, a few weeks ago is the, student has to teach the AI what they learn in the last class. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Ah, interesting. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> You see that we say learning by teaching is, like, one of the best ways to learn. And as a professor, I can say that’s very true because I created a new class on AI and I learned a lot just by teaching it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Of course, this technology is changing fast, and there’s really nothing stopping students from building their own AI agent or autonomous AI tool to interact with Sébastien’s AI, and turning in a log of that conversation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>That’s one of the main obstacles our instructors want to get into AI, because it just feels it’s constantly evolving, and whatever I do now, I fix a problem, another problem will appear later. So it’s a very, very real concern.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, and this is hard because I’ve done, you know, way back in the day I taught some classes myself, and the first time you teach something, it can be kind of a train wreck, right? And then you kinda get better over time, and you learn what works. So how do you as a professor or a teacher keep up?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> I would turn the question around, and this is why I try to put my students in the loop as much as possible. It’s like, “Here’s the deal,” like, “What is good for you?” You know? “Why are we doing this homework? Why are we doing all of that?” The goal is not just to go for the grade. That would be the mistake.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, the goal is at the end of the day, you know, you learn something. And, you know, if AI is becoming more and more of a commodity that can do anything for us, our deep expertise and our personal thoughts and what makes us unique has even more value, because that’s what differentiates all of it, rather than the things that AI can just automate, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so I think at the end of the day, the answer to this question is also, it’s not only on the professor’s side, it’s also on the students. Like, why are you at Kellogg? What do you wanna get out of all of this? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Some of the changes that Sébastien has made to his class, they aren’t planned. He’ll be in the middle of teaching, he’ll get an idea for how to make something better, and just use AI to make it happen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For example, just a week before our interview, his students were in small breakout groups using class time to discuss a case study, that staple of business school education. The time was flying by. Sure, the students were having wonderful discussions in their small groups, but Sébastien was getting frustrated, realizing there would not be enough time for the entire class to reflect on the ideas that the individual groups had generated.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So while the students were still in their breakout groups, Sébastien explained the dilemma to Claude Code, a popular AI coding tool. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> And so Claude Code was like, “No problem. Let’s do it,” and created something, and by the time students had sent their reply, we had a custom-made software, which was kind of like a constellation of ideas that popped up on the board, and we could see quotes from all the students and the ideas that they had in common and not in common, and this enabled a much deeper conversation because I was able to share all this information instead of just, like, talking to, you know, like, three, four students that were willing to share their ideas.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, it’s just a small thing, but it’s changed the way I taught this class, and it did use AI, and at the end of the day, it’s just about your creativity. Like, it’s a tool that is so powerful that, you know, sometimes, you know, as an instructor, you go, “Oh, it’d be so good to have this,” and then you just use it, and it creates a much better experience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you see here in that case, it increased the communications between humans. Like, of course, AI can sometimes take away from what we do, but in that case, I think it added to what we do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Now, there are tools already on the market that can do this kind of thing. But what was unique was that Sébastien was able to create them on the fly, in that moment for that class. And the best example of how AI has changed Sébastien’s course has to do with the experience of reading the case itself. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> So we turned it into, instead of me giving them a PDF, I tell them that they can interview, “People” from the company and ask any question they want. And I give them access to the CEO, to the CFO, to, like, a frontline worker, to anyone, and then they have to understand the company deeply, kind of like consulting. You interview people, and you understand their relationship, and they all have very different point of views, and some of them don’t even wanna talk to you, and so on. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Well, and “people” are, of course, chatbots with, like, personalities and information that you’ve given them. This is the activity that has gotten Sébastien the most attention, including a big write-up in The Wall Street Journal. I wanted to try it, and Sébastien was kind enough to mentor me through his simulation. We pull it up on his desktop. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Okay, so I am a consultant at Proxima Health Systems?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you’re an AI expert, and they called you because they wanna have a big AI project, and they want it to be successful. And your point of contact is Maya Chen. She’s the leader of this After Visit AI program. Like, she has an AI agent she wants you to build. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay, and so I can just start talking to her and say, like, “Hey.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, she’s just waiting for you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> There’s a whole bunch of little avatars representing different people at the company, and I can pick one to have a text chat with. I see the avatar for Maya, my point of contact, and I begin to type. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>‘\u003c/strong>Hi there. I’d love some clarification on what you want me to accomplish.’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Maya tells me that I, the AI expert consultant, will be building her company an AI tool that helps automate the after-visit forms that sales reps fill out after they visit their customers’ hospitals. And after a bit of back and forth with Maya about some of the players involved, including Marcus, a sales manager, and a bit of help from Sébastien, I start to get a sense of the nitty-gritty details involved in my assignment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> And so for this, we have a CRM system, a customer relationship management system, which is like this big database where rep have to enter information. But they hate it. It has to be formatted, made in a very specific way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Ah, I hate it already. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>They spend hours every week. And then so this is why, like, there is this sort of tension because Marcus needs them to enter this information, but they’re like, “Yeah, it doesn’t represent what we see on the ground. Why do you want me to spend all my time on this instead of with the customer?” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Okay, got it. Maya, Marcus, and others in the company want to automate the after-visit forms that the salespeople fill out, apparently to make things easier on the sales team. But then I chat with a member of the sales team, Dana, and Dana doesn’t necessarily think AI will help. She thinks the whole customer relationship system is messed up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>‘Dana makes a number of points. She says it’s like whiplash. She can spend 30 minutes in a unit with a nurse manager who’s stressed out of her mind. She catches the real issue. They come to a conclusion, and then she’s supposed to translate that into 12 little CRM boxes that don’t fit how hospitals actually talk, and then the managers wonder why the notes are vague.’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Dana is a little suspicious of \u003cem>me\u003c/em>, the AI consultant. Here’s how she puts it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“What exactly are you trying to solve? Time, accuracy, or the manager chasing us for missing fields?”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Ooh.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> You’re in the middle of it right now. I am in the middle of it. It’s hard to help her without more information, understanding everything.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I decide to try to get Dana in line with some tough talk. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>‘All right, Dana. I hear what you’re saying, but you do realize that you are part of this big organization that has a lot of really important goals? I feel like maybe you’re not doing your part.’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> Oh, she’s not happy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>She says, “I am doing my part. That’s the job. What I’m not gonna do is pretend the existing system works the way headquarters imagines.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>How dare you question that I’m doing my job? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: ‘\u003c/strong>Thanks, Dana. I appreciate the straight talk. I love straight talk. What would you like to see?’ \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And now I’m really starting to understand this scenario. It’s not just about coming up with some kind of AI-powered solution to data collection. It’s about understanding the social dynamics in the company. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>‘Cause she’s very afraid. She says, “Not cutting heads.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Not cutting heads. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>She’s really afraid that you’re coming with AI trying to take over her job. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Oh, yeah. That’s a good point. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>You know? Because we’re automating a part of the job that she and her teams do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Once I understand that there’s anxiety in this company about AI taking jobs, and that this anxiety is driving so many problems, I start having more productive chats with the different characters, and we start making progress.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is what Sebastien says this kind of AI-driven exercise is designed to explore. How to keep asking questions until you understand what’s actually going on, the problems behind the problem, the stuff that only rarely ends up on any official brief. I think there is a risk in education where I’m like, “This is the truth.” This is the answer to this problem.” And, you know, like, for example, if you go on Instagram and you have your newsfeed, you’re not asking for the next thing you wanna see. We’re just so used to just information being provided to us and not to have to think. And then you get into the middle of this and you have a “real person” you talk to, you actually need to decide what’s your next step.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But this is actually where all the thinking happens, right? You’re like, you need to be aware of what you understand and what you don’t understand. You need to, like, plan ahead. You need to also manage your relationship with them. And I think this is where I think the most. Actually, it’s what I feel like it’s the most important thing to think about, in life, you know, in general.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think we don’t have many tools that are not meant to just, like, provide us with the answer, but are meant for us to ask the right question and for us to learn more. And I think AI is a wonderful tool for that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Here, the AI tool isn’t being used to make things easier on students. It’s not making it faster to read the case or offering up a streamlined summary. It’s slowing students down, making them think more. Or that’s the idea. So are his students learning more using this AI-powered simulation than they would’ve the old way, discussing PDFs or writing short essays? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>It’s hard to answer this question for sure. You can only capture it with exams and stuff like that. But AI cases, in the context of this class, were not something that was graded. They were something meant for conversations in the classroom. So then the second best I can give you is I had the most fun I’ve ever had teaching a case. Like, the participation of the students was through the roof.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They had so many ideas. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Sébastien acknowledges that it’s hard to know for sure. Just because students enjoy an activity, recognize it with a teaching award, doesn’t always mean that they’re learning more. But the students tell him they’re learning more because the scenarios feel real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>The students say that it was very useful to them, especially the students who came from consulting. They say it’s exactly the type of thing I had to be good at. It’s great to see it in the context of AI and so on. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>After the break, this strikes me as the dream scenario for AI in the classroom. But just how common is this dream scenario? Is it limited to the classrooms of super AI savvy teachers, or does Sébastien’s optimism extend to other classrooms, too?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I, like a lot of people, think about this technology as having the ability to both empower people and to disempower or overwhelm them. And it seems like for you, the primary experience has been one of empowerment. But I wanna point out, you are kind of a special case. You are somebody who studies AI, is very, very familiar with using algorithms, and was even before ChatGPT came on the scene, and you also teach highly motivated students at a top business school.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And this is not true of most educators. So my husband teaches high school at Chicago Public Schools, and he assures me that the general consensus among public high school teachers is not one of empowerment. I think a lot of schools are strapped for resources. They don’t always have the opportunity to train instructors in how to manage this technology, and a lot of them have just come to see this as a widespread cheating factory. And so I’m just kind of curious how you think about that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>I mean, first, thank you so much for asking this question. Something I think about a lot, and first it’s very important to highlight that I come from a place of privilege in so many dimensions, as you mentioned. And, you know, because I, so I speak more and more publicly, like right now, about this topic, and I’m always like, “What should you say?” Because, you know, as you saw in this conversation, I choose to highlight the positive because I know that people are very aware of the negative. And I think seeing a bit of light at the end of the tunnel can help. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it is true, you know, that I was lucky to start early and lucky to be in the position I was, and to iterate over time, and I made many, many mistakes. There are things that worked, things that didn’t work. I would say the message, and I really don’t wanna deny at all what public education is going through. I’ve worked a lot also with public education and I know how hard a job it can be, but also how rewarding. What I wanna say is give it a chance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, this technology, for good or bad reason, is most likely here to stay. And if you iterate a little bit with Claude, ChatGPT, whatever, you’ll quickly realize after you overcome this barrier of, you know, not resentment, but this barrier or, like, this technology is really making my job complicated, you quickly realize that it’s a neutral technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, it can do a lot of harm, but it can also allow you as an instructor to create new things and to solve some of the problems. And at first you start very small. You know, you have all of this, like, I forgot how you were saying, like, this cheating factory thing. But then you’re like, “Oh, I can maybe use it that way.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And actually that had a small positive impact. And it looks like a drop in the ocean. But then because you open this door, then curiosity gets in. What if I could do this? And what if I could do that? And all I can say, I know it’s a very minimal point, is there are good things. And yes, they take time, and they take trial and error, and all I can do is show examples. But I think there is value in just knowing that you can use this technology for good. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So, I am a parent. My kids are a little younger than the students we’ve been talking about, two elementary school-aged kids. And I personally do not want them using AI right now, partly because I think they already spend enough of their lives staring at screens. That is the perennial parenting battle of our age. But also because I want them to learn some really core skills about how to go through the world, and think about problems themselves before I provide them with the scaffolding that AI would provide. And so I wanna ask you, do you think there are some skills that people should have before they turn to AI to learn something?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>I mean, of course take everything that I’m about to say with a grain of salt, because I’m not an expert in that. You’re way more of an expert than me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>We’ll bring in some folks to rebut you point by point. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>But, you know, and also, I wanna highlight that we hear so much about AI these days. I think what’s super, super important to say is we don’t know. You know, like they say, wisdom is to know when you don’t know. Nobody knows where AI is going, okay? Like, but then it’s still good to talk about scenarios, and your analogy with the screens or the smartphone is a great one. You know, there has been a lot of debates, on not allowing screen times and, like, this leading to, children learning more to interact with the world and with each other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think it could be great to do this with AI. I mean, that sounds like a great strategy to me. Then, the one caveat I wanna say on this is one pet peeve that I have is I don’t think AI means anything. It’s kind of you saying humans or electricity. Like, is electricity good or bad? Should we forbid kids to access electricity?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think there are ways to use AI that could be net positives and there are ways to use AI that could be a disaster. So when we say allow kids to access AI, often we think ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini, like the basic thing you can ask all your questions. But for example, I was just talking to a parent and they were playing with their children to create their own song for a story that they invented.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And they used AI to like, put their lyrics that they co-created into a nice song and they were singing it together. Is it a bad use of AI or does it increase creativity? I heard another parent has ChatGPT to, you know, create like, these frames of drawing that you can draw into on things that were very personal. Like they just went on vacation somewhere and let’s actually draw what we went through. And you know you cannot buy a book that’s so personalized. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Like a coloring book of their exact vacation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>Exactly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Oh, that’s, that is kind of cool. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>You see? Like another example and maybe more the fringe of what’s acceptable is there’s a lot of, there are ways to turn ChatGPT into something that don’t think for you. So the way AI works is there are hidden instructions, and AI follows these hidden instructions. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>That’s right. If you didn’t know, most chatbots have some version of hidden instructions to guide their use; and as a user, you can change the default settings for these instructions, specify how the AI should respond to prompts, including how much information it should provide.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>In the hidden instructions called a system message, you can ask the AI, “Look, you’re talking to a child. Here’s what we really want to avoid. We want them to feel for, to think for themselves. We want them to learn how to be independent. We don’t want them to learn how to rely on you instead of thinking.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But maybe you can encourage their curiosity. And then you let the children talk to this version of ChatGPT, and the AI will just reply to their questions with other questions, and what do you think about this, and what do you think about that? Maybe it’s better than just staring at an iPad on YouTube, you know? Maybe it actually leads you to, to think a bit deeper. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>For the record, I will not be tasking ChatGPT to chat with my children anytime soon, even in appropriately Socratic only ask questions mode. But that coloring book idea, it’s actually kind of a good one, and I take his point. We really don’t know. We don’t know how helpful or harmful AI will ultimately be as an educational tool. Stepping back a bit though, I wanted to know what advice he would have for students, the people on the other end of the educational process. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>I mean, the first one, which is, you know, the one thing I want us to remember from this podcast is, like, stay hopeful. Because, you know, there are reasons to despair from time to time, and especially as humans, we are really not good at dealing with uncertainty. Like, second, staying hopeful and being aware that we tend to only see the downside instead of all the unexpected upside that can come later.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Everyone is in the same boat. Like, it feels like it’s me that doesn’t know what the next step to choose and so on, like what studies should I go for, how should I learn and so on. But it’s not only me, it’s the whole society that has to adapt at the same time. And I think that at least for me, it helps me feel a bit better about it, like, the idea that it’s not me that doesn’t know what to do next and it’s all of us together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it’s like we’re all collectively gonna go through this crazy period together. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>Exactly. And so the more we can, you know, like help each other and so on, the better it is. And, finally, what do you do? You have this huge uncertainty. I’m saying, okay, take it with a grain of salt with all the feedback you receive about what you think you should do and so on, and all of us together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I think a flip side of that is, if you’re, it’s pure uncertainty and we don’t exactly know where things are going, maybe the best thing to do is to follow your heart. I know it sounds a bit cheesy, but you know, at the end of the day, I think it’s better, like, try for all of us to maybe not conform as much as possible and what’s expected of us and follow more, like, our instinct. Maybe there has never been a better time to do that because the uncertainty of the system is the system is gonna change so much that maybe the best path to follow is just what we really like to do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>Thank you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>AI is forcing students and educators to adapt. And while a lot of attention has been focused on cheating and outsourcing thinking, I think Sébastien makes a compelling case that this adaptation will have some real upsides, that new kinds of learning experiences are now possible, including ones that ask more of students, not less.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But of course, AI is not the first technology to barge into schools. Next episode, we’ll look at how previous technologies have changed education, particularly for younger students, what those technologies delivered, what they failed to deliver, and what this could mean for today’s high schoolers, middle schoolers, elementary school kids growing up alongside AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love. This is Life, Automated, a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University, distributed by KQED. A special thanks to today’s guest, Sébastien Martin. We’re produced by Jesse Dukes, additional production by Nathan Ray, music by Stephen Jackson, recording by George Christensen and Will Feeney, marketing help from Ananya Mallapragada, administrative support, recording help, and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> This is Life, Automated, the show that explores how to live, work, and make decisions in a world increasingly shaped by machines. By now, I’m sure you’re aware education has been hit hard by AI. It’s not exactly a secret why. You remember being a student. Maybe you are still a student. You work, you learn, you get your grade, your degree, and then you leave school better prepared for life.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> This is Life, Automated, the show that explores how to live, work, and make decisions in a world increasingly shaped by machines. By now, I’m sure you’re aware education has been hit hard by AI. It’s not exactly a secret why. You remember being a student. Maybe you are still a student. You work, you learn, you get your grade, your degree, and then you leave school better prepared for life.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Or at least that was the deal. Today’s students essentially have the world’s greatest cheating machine right at their fingertips, and that part about needing to learn to prepare for life, says who? If AI can do it, will you ever even need to? So maybe it’s no surprise that students are some of the heaviest adopters of AI, a trend that AI companies are very happy to facilitate, thank you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Or at least that was the deal. Today’s students essentially have the world’s greatest cheating machine right at their fingertips, and that part about needing to learn to prepare for life, says who? If AI can do it, will you ever even need to? So maybe it’s no surprise that students are some of the heaviest adopters of AI, a trend that AI companies are very happy to facilitate, thank you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And this puts educators in a tough place. I want to be upfront about this. Education is changing in ways we still don’t understand, and educators in universities, high schools, middle schools, are on the front lines. Many are not happy about AI. They didn’t ask for it, and they have real concerns that it will harm their students.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And this puts educators in a tough place. I want to be upfront about this. Education is changing in ways we still don’t understand, and educators in universities, high schools, middle schools, are on the front lines. Many are not happy about AI. They didn’t ask for it, and they have real concerns that it will harm their students.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Sébastien Martin is a colleague of mine here at Kellogg, an associate professor of operations. He studies AI, he teaches MBA students about AI, and in his operations management classroom, he’s replaced a lot of pen and paper-based activities with AI-powered simulations. In these simulations, rather than AI making it easier for students to finish whatever assignment is on hand, it slows them down, makes them work even harder.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> In a way, you know, when you have 140 students at the same time, for example, or even more, 200, it’s hard to have individualized conversations with everyone with my time, and I only have this time where it’s me with all the students at the same time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> So the point was for them to know even before they take it why we think it’s good for them to be there. Which changes everything because if you have the attention of people as you even just get started, then communication just flows a little bit better. And if you think about it, there’s no way for me to do this without AI. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> So the point was for them to know even before they take it why we think it’s good for them to be there. Which changes everything because if you have the attention of people as you even just get started, then communication just flows a little bit better. And if you think about it, there’s no way for me to do this without AI. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>You know, AI came like a wrecking ball. And, you know, like, what’s even the meaning of a take-home exam anymore? You know, you can trust the students not to use ChatGPT, but we are at the point where you can just take a screenshot of the exam on your phone and get A+ for everything technical. And so it’s just unfair to ask the students to do it this way. And because, like, how do you even grade it, because some students would respect the rule and maybe a few will run out of time and ask the help of AI. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>You know, AI came like a wrecking ball. And, you know, like, what’s even the meaning of a take-home exam anymore? You know, you can trust the students not to use ChatGPT, but we are at the point where you can just take a screenshot of the exam on your phone and get A+ for everything technical. And so it’s just unfair to ask the students to do it this way. And because, like, how do you even grade it, because some students would respect the rule and maybe a few will run out of time and ask the help of AI. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>It’s been well over three years since Sébastien started experimenting with AI in his classroom. And these days, nearly everything about his course looks pretty different. Some of these changes have been spurred by AI making it really, really easy for students to cheat. But Sébastien says that other changes are more about problems with the old ways of doing things. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>It’s been well over three years since Sébastien started experimenting with AI in his classroom. And these days, nearly everything about his course looks pretty different. Some of these changes have been spurred by AI making it really, really easy for students to cheat. But Sébastien says that other changes are more about problems with the old ways of doing things. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>Think about our old ways to evaluate, right? I have students coming from so many different backgrounds that care about so many different things, and I have to have one exam that’s graded by people that don’t necessarily understand their background. And so what does it push us to do? It pushes us to standardization, to always asking, like, very abstract questions about things, or to focus on math instead of, like, deeper understanding about the world, because these can be evaluated more easily. I love math, but it becomes just an exercise in itself, like, almost like a Sudoku. At the end of the day, the exam is just asking them to manipulate numbers because this is what I can evaluate. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>Think about our old ways to evaluate, right? I have students coming from so many different backgrounds that care about so many different things, and I have to have one exam that’s graded by people that don’t necessarily understand their background. And so what does it push us to do? It pushes us to standardization, to always asking, like, very abstract questions about things, or to focus on math instead of, like, deeper understanding about the world, because these can be evaluated more easily. I love math, but it becomes just an exercise in itself, like, almost like a Sudoku. At the end of the day, the exam is just asking them to manipulate numbers because this is what I can evaluate. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So let’s get concrete here. With simple problem sets basically out the window, what does Sébastien’s class look like today? Well, for homework, Sébastien might require his students to converse with an AI tutor for maybe 30 minutes, walking through concepts and connecting them to their own experiences. That tutor might be trained in the Socratic method so that rather than giving answers like a standard chatbot, it pushes students to do the thinking themselves. Then, instead of turning in answers, students would upload a log of their chat to be graded pass or fail. Or maybe the tutoring goes the other way. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So let’s get concrete here. With simple problem sets basically out the window, what does Sébastien’s class look like today? Well, for homework, Sébastien might require his students to converse with an AI tutor for maybe 30 minutes, walking through concepts and connecting them to their own experiences. That tutor might be trained in the Socratic method so that rather than giving answers like a standard chatbot, it pushes students to do the thinking themselves. Then, instead of turning in answers, students would upload a log of their chat to be graded pass or fail. Or maybe the tutoring goes the other way. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> The homework I just gave, like, a few weeks ago is the, student has to teach the AI what they learn in the last class. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> The homework I just gave, like, a few weeks ago is the, student has to teach the AI what they learn in the last class. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Ah, interesting. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Ah, interesting. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> You see that we say learning by teaching is, like, one of the best ways to learn. And as a professor, I can say that’s very true because I created a new class on AI and I learned a lot just by teaching it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> You see that we say learning by teaching is, like, one of the best ways to learn. And as a professor, I can say that’s very true because I created a new class on AI and I learned a lot just by teaching it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Of course, this technology is changing fast, and there’s really nothing stopping students from building their own AI agent or autonomous AI tool to interact with Sébastien’s AI, and turning in a log of that conversation. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Of course, this technology is changing fast, and there’s really nothing stopping students from building their own AI agent or autonomous AI tool to interact with Sébastien’s AI, and turning in a log of that conversation. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>That’s one of the main obstacles our instructors want to get into AI, because it just feels it’s constantly evolving, and whatever I do now, I fix a problem, another problem will appear later. So it’s a very, very real concern.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>That’s one of the main obstacles our instructors want to get into AI, because it just feels it’s constantly evolving, and whatever I do now, I fix a problem, another problem will appear later. So it’s a very, very real concern.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, and this is hard because I’ve done, you know, way back in the day I taught some classes myself, and the first time you teach something, it can be kind of a train wreck, right? And then you kinda get better over time, and you learn what works. So how do you as a professor or a teacher keep up?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, and this is hard because I’ve done, you know, way back in the day I taught some classes myself, and the first time you teach something, it can be kind of a train wreck, right? And then you kinda get better over time, and you learn what works. So how do you as a professor or a teacher keep up?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> I would turn the question around, and this is why I try to put my students in the loop as much as possible. It’s like, “Here’s the deal,” like, “What is good for you?” You know? “Why are we doing this homework? Why are we doing all of that?” The goal is not just to go for the grade. That would be the mistake.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> I would turn the question around, and this is why I try to put my students in the loop as much as possible. It’s like, “Here’s the deal,” like, “What is good for you?” You know? “Why are we doing this homework? Why are we doing all of that?” The goal is not just to go for the grade. That would be the mistake.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Like, the goal is at the end of the day, you know, you learn something. And, you know, if AI is becoming more and more of a commodity that can do anything for us, our deep expertise and our personal thoughts and what makes us unique has even more value, because that’s what differentiates all of it, rather than the things that AI can just automate, you know?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Like, the goal is at the end of the day, you know, you learn something. And, you know, if AI is becoming more and more of a commodity that can do anything for us, our deep expertise and our personal thoughts and what makes us unique has even more value, because that’s what differentiates all of it, rather than the things that AI can just automate, you know?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so I think at the end of the day, the answer to this question is also, it’s not only on the professor’s side, it’s also on the students. Like, why are you at Kellogg? What do you wanna get out of all of this? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so I think at the end of the day, the answer to this question is also, it’s not only on the professor’s side, it’s also on the students. Like, why are you at Kellogg? What do you wanna get out of all of this? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Some of the changes that Sébastien has made to his class, they aren’t planned. He’ll be in the middle of teaching, he’ll get an idea for how to make something better, and just use AI to make it happen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Some of the changes that Sébastien has made to his class, they aren’t planned. He’ll be in the middle of teaching, he’ll get an idea for how to make something better, and just use AI to make it happen.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For example, just a week before our interview, his students were in small breakout groups using class time to discuss a case study, that staple of business school education. The time was flying by. Sure, the students were having wonderful discussions in their small groups, but Sébastien was getting frustrated, realizing there would not be enough time for the entire class to reflect on the ideas that the individual groups had generated.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For example, just a week before our interview, his students were in small breakout groups using class time to discuss a case study, that staple of business school education. The time was flying by. Sure, the students were having wonderful discussions in their small groups, but Sébastien was getting frustrated, realizing there would not be enough time for the entire class to reflect on the ideas that the individual groups had generated.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So while the students were still in their breakout groups, Sébastien explained the dilemma to Claude Code, a popular AI coding tool. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So while the students were still in their breakout groups, Sébastien explained the dilemma to Claude Code, a popular AI coding tool. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> And so Claude Code was like, “No problem. Let’s do it,” and created something, and by the time students had sent their reply, we had a custom-made software, which was kind of like a constellation of ideas that popped up on the board, and we could see quotes from all the students and the ideas that they had in common and not in common, and this enabled a much deeper conversation because I was able to share all this information instead of just, like, talking to, you know, like, three, four students that were willing to share their ideas.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> And so Claude Code was like, “No problem. Let’s do it,” and created something, and by the time students had sent their reply, we had a custom-made software, which was kind of like a constellation of ideas that popped up on the board, and we could see quotes from all the students and the ideas that they had in common and not in common, and this enabled a much deeper conversation because I was able to share all this information instead of just, like, talking to, you know, like, three, four students that were willing to share their ideas.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, it’s just a small thing, but it’s changed the way I taught this class, and it did use AI, and at the end of the day, it’s just about your creativity. Like, it’s a tool that is so powerful that, you know, sometimes, you know, as an instructor, you go, “Oh, it’d be so good to have this,” and then you just use it, and it creates a much better experience.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, it’s just a small thing, but it’s changed the way I taught this class, and it did use AI, and at the end of the day, it’s just about your creativity. Like, it’s a tool that is so powerful that, you know, sometimes, you know, as an instructor, you go, “Oh, it’d be so good to have this,” and then you just use it, and it creates a much better experience.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And you see here in that case, it increased the communications between humans. Like, of course, AI can sometimes take away from what we do, but in that case, I think it added to what we do. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And you see here in that case, it increased the communications between humans. Like, of course, AI can sometimes take away from what we do, but in that case, I think it added to what we do. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Now, there are tools already on the market that can do this kind of thing. But what was unique was that Sébastien was able to create them on the fly, in that moment for that class. And the best example of how AI has changed Sébastien’s course has to do with the experience of reading the case itself. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Now, there are tools already on the market that can do this kind of thing. But what was unique was that Sébastien was able to create them on the fly, in that moment for that class. And the best example of how AI has changed Sébastien’s course has to do with the experience of reading the case itself. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> So we turned it into, instead of me giving them a PDF, I tell them that they can interview, “People” from the company and ask any question they want. And I give them access to the CEO, to the CFO, to, like, a frontline worker, to anyone, and then they have to understand the company deeply, kind of like consulting. You interview people, and you understand their relationship, and they all have very different point of views, and some of them don’t even wanna talk to you, and so on. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> So we turned it into, instead of me giving them a PDF, I tell them that they can interview, “People” from the company and ask any question they want. And I give them access to the CEO, to the CFO, to, like, a frontline worker, to anyone, and then they have to understand the company deeply, kind of like consulting. You interview people, and you understand their relationship, and they all have very different point of views, and some of them don’t even wanna talk to you, and so on. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Well, and “people” are, of course, chatbots with, like, personalities and information that you’ve given them. This is the activity that has gotten Sébastien the most attention, including a big write-up in The Wall Street Journal. I wanted to try it, and Sébastien was kind enough to mentor me through his simulation. We pull it up on his desktop. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Well, and “people” are, of course, chatbots with, like, personalities and information that you’ve given them. This is the activity that has gotten Sébastien the most attention, including a big write-up in The Wall Street Journal. I wanted to try it, and Sébastien was kind enough to mentor me through his simulation. We pull it up on his desktop. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Okay, so I am a consultant at Proxima Health Systems?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Okay, so I am a consultant at Proxima Health Systems?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you’re an AI expert, and they called you because they wanna have a big AI project, and they want it to be successful. And your point of contact is Maya Chen. She’s the leader of this After Visit AI program. Like, she has an AI agent she wants you to build. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you’re an AI expert, and they called you because they wanna have a big AI project, and they want it to be successful. And your point of contact is Maya Chen. She’s the leader of this After Visit AI program. Like, she has an AI agent she wants you to build. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay, and so I can just start talking to her and say, like, “Hey.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay, and so I can just start talking to her and say, like, “Hey.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, she’s just waiting for you. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, she’s just waiting for you. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> There’s a whole bunch of little avatars representing different people at the company, and I can pick one to have a text chat with. I see the avatar for Maya, my point of contact, and I begin to type. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> There’s a whole bunch of little avatars representing different people at the company, and I can pick one to have a text chat with. I see the avatar for Maya, my point of contact, and I begin to type. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>‘\u003c/strong>Hi there. I’d love some clarification on what you want me to accomplish.’\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>‘\u003c/strong>Hi there. I’d love some clarification on what you want me to accomplish.’\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Maya tells me that I, the AI expert consultant, will be building her company an AI tool that helps automate the after-visit forms that sales reps fill out after they visit their customers’ hospitals. And after a bit of back and forth with Maya about some of the players involved, including Marcus, a sales manager, and a bit of help from Sébastien, I start to get a sense of the nitty-gritty details involved in my assignment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Maya tells me that I, the AI expert consultant, will be building her company an AI tool that helps automate the after-visit forms that sales reps fill out after they visit their customers’ hospitals. And after a bit of back and forth with Maya about some of the players involved, including Marcus, a sales manager, and a bit of help from Sébastien, I start to get a sense of the nitty-gritty details involved in my assignment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> And so for this, we have a CRM system, a customer relationship management system, which is like this big database where rep have to enter information. But they hate it. It has to be formatted, made in a very specific way. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> And so for this, we have a CRM system, a customer relationship management system, which is like this big database where rep have to enter information. But they hate it. It has to be formatted, made in a very specific way. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Ah, I hate it already. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Ah, I hate it already. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>They spend hours every week. And then so this is why, like, there is this sort of tension because Marcus needs them to enter this information, but they’re like, “Yeah, it doesn’t represent what we see on the ground. Why do you want me to spend all my time on this instead of with the customer?” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>They spend hours every week. And then so this is why, like, there is this sort of tension because Marcus needs them to enter this information, but they’re like, “Yeah, it doesn’t represent what we see on the ground. Why do you want me to spend all my time on this instead of with the customer?” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Okay, got it. Maya, Marcus, and others in the company want to automate the after-visit forms that the salespeople fill out, apparently to make things easier on the sales team. But then I chat with a member of the sales team, Dana, and Dana doesn’t necessarily think AI will help. She thinks the whole customer relationship system is messed up. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Okay, got it. Maya, Marcus, and others in the company want to automate the after-visit forms that the salespeople fill out, apparently to make things easier on the sales team. But then I chat with a member of the sales team, Dana, and Dana doesn’t necessarily think AI will help. She thinks the whole customer relationship system is messed up. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>‘Dana makes a number of points. She says it’s like whiplash. She can spend 30 minutes in a unit with a nurse manager who’s stressed out of her mind. She catches the real issue. They come to a conclusion, and then she’s supposed to translate that into 12 little CRM boxes that don’t fit how hospitals actually talk, and then the managers wonder why the notes are vague.’\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>‘Dana makes a number of points. She says it’s like whiplash. She can spend 30 minutes in a unit with a nurse manager who’s stressed out of her mind. She catches the real issue. They come to a conclusion, and then she’s supposed to translate that into 12 little CRM boxes that don’t fit how hospitals actually talk, and then the managers wonder why the notes are vague.’\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And Dana is a little suspicious of \u003cem>me\u003c/em>, the AI consultant. Here’s how she puts it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“What exactly are you trying to solve? Time, accuracy, or the manager chasing us for missing fields?”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“What exactly are you trying to solve? Time, accuracy, or the manager chasing us for missing fields?”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Ooh.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> You’re in the middle of it right now. I am in the middle of it. It’s hard to help her without more information, understanding everything.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> You’re in the middle of it right now. I am in the middle of it. It’s hard to help her without more information, understanding everything.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I decide to try to get Dana in line with some tough talk. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>‘All right, Dana. I hear what you’re saying, but you do realize that you are part of this big organization that has a lot of really important goals? I feel like maybe you’re not doing your part.’\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>‘All right, Dana. I hear what you’re saying, but you do realize that you are part of this big organization that has a lot of really important goals? I feel like maybe you’re not doing your part.’\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> Oh, she’s not happy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>She says, “I am doing my part. That’s the job. What I’m not gonna do is pretend the existing system works the way headquarters imagines.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>She says, “I am doing my part. That’s the job. What I’m not gonna do is pretend the existing system works the way headquarters imagines.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>How dare you question that I’m doing my job? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: ‘\u003c/strong>Thanks, Dana. I appreciate the straight talk. I love straight talk. What would you like to see?’ \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And now I’m really starting to understand this scenario. It’s not just about coming up with some kind of AI-powered solution to data collection. It’s about understanding the social dynamics in the company. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And now I’m really starting to understand this scenario. It’s not just about coming up with some kind of AI-powered solution to data collection. It’s about understanding the social dynamics in the company. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>‘Cause she’s very afraid. She says, “Not cutting heads.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Not cutting heads. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>She’s really afraid that you’re coming with AI trying to take over her job. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Oh, yeah. That’s a good point. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>You know? Because we’re automating a part of the job that she and her teams do. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Once I understand that there’s anxiety in this company about AI taking jobs, and that this anxiety is driving so many problems, I start having more productive chats with the different characters, and we start making progress.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Once I understand that there’s anxiety in this company about AI taking jobs, and that this anxiety is driving so many problems, I start having more productive chats with the different characters, and we start making progress.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is what Sebastien says this kind of AI-driven exercise is designed to explore. How to keep asking questions until you understand what’s actually going on, the problems behind the problem, the stuff that only rarely ends up on any official brief. I think there is a risk in education where I’m like, “This is the truth.” This is the answer to this problem.” And, you know, like, for example, if you go on Instagram and you have your newsfeed, you’re not asking for the next thing you wanna see. We’re just so used to just information being provided to us and not to have to think. And then you get into the middle of this and you have a “real person” you talk to, you actually need to decide what’s your next step.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is what Sebastien says this kind of AI-driven exercise is designed to explore. How to keep asking questions until you understand what’s actually going on, the problems behind the problem, the stuff that only rarely ends up on any official brief. I think there is a risk in education where I’m like, “This is the truth.” This is the answer to this problem.” And, you know, like, for example, if you go on Instagram and you have your newsfeed, you’re not asking for the next thing you wanna see. We’re just so used to just information being provided to us and not to have to think. And then you get into the middle of this and you have a “real person” you talk to, you actually need to decide what’s your next step.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But this is actually where all the thinking happens, right? You’re like, you need to be aware of what you understand and what you don’t understand. You need to, like, plan ahead. You need to also manage your relationship with them. And I think this is where I think the most. Actually, it’s what I feel like it’s the most important thing to think about, in life, you know, in general.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But this is actually where all the thinking happens, right? You’re like, you need to be aware of what you understand and what you don’t understand. You need to, like, plan ahead. You need to also manage your relationship with them. And I think this is where I think the most. Actually, it’s what I feel like it’s the most important thing to think about, in life, you know, in general.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think we don’t have many tools that are not meant to just, like, provide us with the answer, but are meant for us to ask the right question and for us to learn more. And I think AI is a wonderful tool for that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think we don’t have many tools that are not meant to just, like, provide us with the answer, but are meant for us to ask the right question and for us to learn more. And I think AI is a wonderful tool for that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Here, the AI tool isn’t being used to make things easier on students. It’s not making it faster to read the case or offering up a streamlined summary. It’s slowing students down, making them think more. Or that’s the idea. So are his students learning more using this AI-powered simulation than they would’ve the old way, discussing PDFs or writing short essays? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Here, the AI tool isn’t being used to make things easier on students. It’s not making it faster to read the case or offering up a streamlined summary. It’s slowing students down, making them think more. Or that’s the idea. So are his students learning more using this AI-powered simulation than they would’ve the old way, discussing PDFs or writing short essays? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>It’s hard to answer this question for sure. You can only capture it with exams and stuff like that. But AI cases, in the context of this class, were not something that was graded. They were something meant for conversations in the classroom. So then the second best I can give you is I had the most fun I’ve ever had teaching a case. Like, the participation of the students was through the roof.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>It’s hard to answer this question for sure. You can only capture it with exams and stuff like that. But AI cases, in the context of this class, were not something that was graded. They were something meant for conversations in the classroom. So then the second best I can give you is I had the most fun I’ve ever had teaching a case. Like, the participation of the students was through the roof.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They had so many ideas. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Sébastien acknowledges that it’s hard to know for sure. Just because students enjoy an activity, recognize it with a teaching award, doesn’t always mean that they’re learning more. But the students tell him they’re learning more because the scenarios feel real. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Sébastien acknowledges that it’s hard to know for sure. Just because students enjoy an activity, recognize it with a teaching award, doesn’t always mean that they’re learning more. But the students tell him they’re learning more because the scenarios feel real. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>The students say that it was very useful to them, especially the students who came from consulting. They say it’s exactly the type of thing I had to be good at. It’s great to see it in the context of AI and so on. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>The students say that it was very useful to them, especially the students who came from consulting. They say it’s exactly the type of thing I had to be good at. It’s great to see it in the context of AI and so on. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>After the break, this strikes me as the dream scenario for AI in the classroom. But just how common is this dream scenario? Is it limited to the classrooms of super AI savvy teachers, or does Sébastien’s optimism extend to other classrooms, too?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>After the break, this strikes me as the dream scenario for AI in the classroom. But just how common is this dream scenario? Is it limited to the classrooms of super AI savvy teachers, or does Sébastien’s optimism extend to other classrooms, too?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I, like a lot of people, think about this technology as having the ability to both empower people and to disempower or overwhelm them. And it seems like for you, the primary experience has been one of empowerment. But I wanna point out, you are kind of a special case. You are somebody who studies AI, is very, very familiar with using algorithms, and was even before ChatGPT came on the scene, and you also teach highly motivated students at a top business school.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I, like a lot of people, think about this technology as having the ability to both empower people and to disempower or overwhelm them. And it seems like for you, the primary experience has been one of empowerment. But I wanna point out, you are kind of a special case. You are somebody who studies AI, is very, very familiar with using algorithms, and was even before ChatGPT came on the scene, and you also teach highly motivated students at a top business school.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And this is not true of most educators. So my husband teaches high school at Chicago Public Schools, and he assures me that the general consensus among public high school teachers is not one of empowerment. I think a lot of schools are strapped for resources. They don’t always have the opportunity to train instructors in how to manage this technology, and a lot of them have just come to see this as a widespread cheating factory. And so I’m just kind of curious how you think about that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And this is not true of most educators. So my husband teaches high school at Chicago Public Schools, and he assures me that the general consensus among public high school teachers is not one of empowerment. I think a lot of schools are strapped for resources. They don’t always have the opportunity to train instructors in how to manage this technology, and a lot of them have just come to see this as a widespread cheating factory. And so I’m just kind of curious how you think about that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>I mean, first, thank you so much for asking this question. Something I think about a lot, and first it’s very important to highlight that I come from a place of privilege in so many dimensions, as you mentioned. And, you know, because I, so I speak more and more publicly, like right now, about this topic, and I’m always like, “What should you say?” Because, you know, as you saw in this conversation, I choose to highlight the positive because I know that people are very aware of the negative. And I think seeing a bit of light at the end of the tunnel can help. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it is true, you know, that I was lucky to start early and lucky to be in the position I was, and to iterate over time, and I made many, many mistakes. There are things that worked, things that didn’t work. I would say the message, and I really don’t wanna deny at all what public education is going through. I’ve worked a lot also with public education and I know how hard a job it can be, but also how rewarding. What I wanna say is give it a chance.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And it is true, you know, that I was lucky to start early and lucky to be in the position I was, and to iterate over time, and I made many, many mistakes. There are things that worked, things that didn’t work. I would say the message, and I really don’t wanna deny at all what public education is going through. I’ve worked a lot also with public education and I know how hard a job it can be, but also how rewarding. What I wanna say is give it a chance.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, this technology, for good or bad reason, is most likely here to stay. And if you iterate a little bit with Claude, ChatGPT, whatever, you’ll quickly realize after you overcome this barrier of, you know, not resentment, but this barrier or, like, this technology is really making my job complicated, you quickly realize that it’s a neutral technology.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, this technology, for good or bad reason, is most likely here to stay. And if you iterate a little bit with Claude, ChatGPT, whatever, you’ll quickly realize after you overcome this barrier of, you know, not resentment, but this barrier or, like, this technology is really making my job complicated, you quickly realize that it’s a neutral technology.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Like, it can do a lot of harm, but it can also allow you as an instructor to create new things and to solve some of the problems. And at first you start very small. You know, you have all of this, like, I forgot how you were saying, like, this cheating factory thing. But then you’re like, “Oh, I can maybe use it that way.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And actually that had a small positive impact. And it looks like a drop in the ocean. But then because you open this door, then curiosity gets in. What if I could do this? And what if I could do that? And all I can say, I know it’s a very minimal point, is there are good things. And yes, they take time, and they take trial and error, and all I can do is show examples. But I think there is value in just knowing that you can use this technology for good. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And actually that had a small positive impact. And it looks like a drop in the ocean. But then because you open this door, then curiosity gets in. What if I could do this? And what if I could do that? And all I can say, I know it’s a very minimal point, is there are good things. And yes, they take time, and they take trial and error, and all I can do is show examples. But I think there is value in just knowing that you can use this technology for good. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So, I am a parent. My kids are a little younger than the students we’ve been talking about, two elementary school-aged kids. And I personally do not want them using AI right now, partly because I think they already spend enough of their lives staring at screens. That is the perennial parenting battle of our age. But also because I want them to learn some really core skills about how to go through the world, and think about problems themselves before I provide them with the scaffolding that AI would provide. And so I wanna ask you, do you think there are some skills that people should have before they turn to AI to learn something?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>I mean, of course take everything that I’m about to say with a grain of salt, because I’m not an expert in that. You’re way more of an expert than me. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>I mean, of course take everything that I’m about to say with a grain of salt, because I’m not an expert in that. You’re way more of an expert than me. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>We’ll bring in some folks to rebut you point by point. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>But, you know, and also, I wanna highlight that we hear so much about AI these days. I think what’s super, super important to say is we don’t know. You know, like they say, wisdom is to know when you don’t know. Nobody knows where AI is going, okay? Like, but then it’s still good to talk about scenarios, and your analogy with the screens or the smartphone is a great one. You know, there has been a lot of debates, on not allowing screen times and, like, this leading to, children learning more to interact with the world and with each other.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think it could be great to do this with AI. I mean, that sounds like a great strategy to me. Then, the one caveat I wanna say on this is one pet peeve that I have is I don’t think AI means anything. It’s kind of you saying humans or electricity. Like, is electricity good or bad? Should we forbid kids to access electricity?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think there are ways to use AI that could be net positives and there are ways to use AI that could be a disaster. So when we say allow kids to access AI, often we think ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini, like the basic thing you can ask all your questions. But for example, I was just talking to a parent and they were playing with their children to create their own song for a story that they invented.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And they used AI to like, put their lyrics that they co-created into a nice song and they were singing it together. Is it a bad use of AI or does it increase creativity? I heard another parent has ChatGPT to, you know, create like, these frames of drawing that you can draw into on things that were very personal. Like they just went on vacation somewhere and let’s actually draw what we went through. And you know you cannot buy a book that’s so personalized. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And they used AI to like, put their lyrics that they co-created into a nice song and they were singing it together. Is it a bad use of AI or does it increase creativity? I heard another parent has ChatGPT to, you know, create like, these frames of drawing that you can draw into on things that were very personal. Like they just went on vacation somewhere and let’s actually draw what we went through. And you know you cannot buy a book that’s so personalized. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Like a coloring book of their exact vacation. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>Exactly. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>You see? Like another example and maybe more the fringe of what’s acceptable is there’s a lot of, there are ways to turn ChatGPT into something that don’t think for you. So the way AI works is there are hidden instructions, and AI follows these hidden instructions. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>That’s right. If you didn’t know, most chatbots have some version of hidden instructions to guide their use; and as a user, you can change the default settings for these instructions, specify how the AI should respond to prompts, including how much information it should provide.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>In the hidden instructions called a system message, you can ask the AI, “Look, you’re talking to a child. Here’s what we really want to avoid. We want them to feel for, to think for themselves. We want them to learn how to be independent. We don’t want them to learn how to rely on you instead of thinking.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But maybe you can encourage their curiosity. And then you let the children talk to this version of ChatGPT, and the AI will just reply to their questions with other questions, and what do you think about this, and what do you think about that? Maybe it’s better than just staring at an iPad on YouTube, you know? Maybe it actually leads you to, to think a bit deeper. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>For the record, I will not be tasking ChatGPT to chat with my children anytime soon, even in appropriately Socratic only ask questions mode. But that coloring book idea, it’s actually kind of a good one, and I take his point. We really don’t know. We don’t know how helpful or harmful AI will ultimately be as an educational tool. Stepping back a bit though, I wanted to know what advice he would have for students, the people on the other end of the educational process. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>I mean, the first one, which is, you know, the one thing I want us to remember from this podcast is, like, stay hopeful. Because, you know, there are reasons to despair from time to time, and especially as humans, we are really not good at dealing with uncertainty. Like, second, staying hopeful and being aware that we tend to only see the downside instead of all the unexpected upside that can come later.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>I mean, the first one, which is, you know, the one thing I want us to remember from this podcast is, like, stay hopeful. Because, you know, there are reasons to despair from time to time, and especially as humans, we are really not good at dealing with uncertainty. Like, second, staying hopeful and being aware that we tend to only see the downside instead of all the unexpected upside that can come later.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Everyone is in the same boat. Like, it feels like it’s me that doesn’t know what the next step to choose and so on, like what studies should I go for, how should I learn and so on. But it’s not only me, it’s the whole society that has to adapt at the same time. And I think that at least for me, it helps me feel a bit better about it, like, the idea that it’s not me that doesn’t know what to do next and it’s all of us together.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Everyone is in the same boat. Like, it feels like it’s me that doesn’t know what the next step to choose and so on, like what studies should I go for, how should I learn and so on. But it’s not only me, it’s the whole society that has to adapt at the same time. And I think that at least for me, it helps me feel a bit better about it, like, the idea that it’s not me that doesn’t know what to do next and it’s all of us together.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>Exactly. And so the more we can, you know, like help each other and so on, the better it is. And, finally, what do you do? You have this huge uncertainty. I’m saying, okay, take it with a grain of salt with all the feedback you receive about what you think you should do and so on, and all of us together.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>Exactly. And so the more we can, you know, like help each other and so on, the better it is. And, finally, what do you do? You have this huge uncertainty. I’m saying, okay, take it with a grain of salt with all the feedback you receive about what you think you should do and so on, and all of us together.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I think a flip side of that is, if you’re, it’s pure uncertainty and we don’t exactly know where things are going, maybe the best thing to do is to follow your heart. I know it sounds a bit cheesy, but you know, at the end of the day, I think it’s better, like, try for all of us to maybe not conform as much as possible and what’s expected of us and follow more, like, our instinct. Maybe there has never been a better time to do that because the uncertainty of the system is the system is gonna change so much that maybe the best path to follow is just what we really like to do.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>AI is forcing students and educators to adapt. And while a lot of attention has been focused on cheating and outsourcing thinking, I think Sébastien makes a compelling case that this adaptation will have some real upsides, that new kinds of learning experiences are now possible, including ones that ask more of students, not less.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But of course, AI is not the first technology to barge into schools. Next episode, we’ll look at how previous technologies have changed education, particularly for younger students, what those technologies delivered, what they failed to deliver, and what this could mean for today’s high schoolers, middle schoolers, elementary school kids growing up alongside AI.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love. This is Life, Automated, a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University, distributed by KQED. A special thanks to today’s guest, Sébastien Martin. We’re produced by Jesse Dukes, additional production by Nathan Ray, music by Stephen Jackson, recording by George Christensen and Will Feeney, marketing help from Ananya Mallapragada, administrative support, recording help, and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://transcript\">View full episode \u003c/a>\u003ca href=\"#transcript\">transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As AI tools spread through classrooms, many educators see a “cheating factory.” Kellogg Professor \u003ca href=\"https://sebastienmartin.info/\">\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin\u003c/strong>\u003c/a> sees things differently: as a chance to reinvent how and what we teach. In his operations management class, students trade PDFs for lifelike chatbots, log conversations with Socratic AI tutors, and use AI to explore the kinds of social and political dynamics that students normally have to learn on the job. But Martin also grapples with harder questions: What about public schools with fewer resources? When should kids use AI at all? And how can students stay hopeful and true to their own interests in a wildly uncertain future? (Part 1/2 in our back-to-school series.)\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Further Reading: \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/ai-is-teaching-the-next-generation-of-m-b-a-s-the-classic-case-study-a4eb4227\">AI Is Teaching the Next Generation of M.B.A.s the Classic Case Study\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"Transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> This is Life, Automated, the show that explores how to live, work, and make decisions in a world increasingly shaped by machines. By now, I’m sure you’re aware education has been hit hard by AI. It’s not exactly a secret why. You remember being a student. Maybe you are still a student. You work, you learn, you get your grade, your degree, and then you leave school better prepared for life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Or at least that was the deal. Today’s students essentially have the world’s greatest cheating machine right at their fingertips, and that part about needing to learn to prepare for life, says who? If AI can do it, will you ever even need to? So maybe it’s no surprise that students are some of the heaviest adopters of AI, a trend that AI companies are very happy to facilitate, thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And this puts educators in a tough place. I want to be upfront about this. Education is changing in ways we still don’t understand, and educators in universities, high schools, middle schools, are on the front lines. Many are not happy about AI. They didn’t ask for it, and they have real concerns that it will harm their students.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Next episode, we’ll go deep into the challenges they face. But today, something different. Today, we’ll be talking to someone who looks at generative AI tools like ChatGPT, Gemini, and Claude, and sees mostly opportunities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sébastien Martin is a colleague of mine here at Kellogg, an associate professor of operations. He studies AI, he teaches MBA students about AI, and in his operations management classroom, he’s replaced a lot of pen and paper-based activities with AI-powered simulations. In these simulations, rather than AI making it easier for students to finish whatever assignment is on hand, it slows them down, makes them work even harder.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I got to experience this firsthand. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I feel like maybe you’re not doing your part. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>Oh, she’s not happy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>She says, “I am doing my part. That’s a job. What I’m not gonna do is pretend the existing system works the way headquarters imagines.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sébastien believes that AI has already made him not just a better instructor, but a happier, more creative, more inspired one, and his students agree.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kellogg’s graduating class chose him as the winner of the 2026 David Bisenko Outstanding Professor of the Year Award. I’ve come to see Sébastien as a virtuoso of a strange new art form. And amidst the big, even existential challenges facing education, I think it’s important to tell these kinds of stories, too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love, and this is Life, Automated, a project from Kellogg’s Ryan Institute on Complexity, distributed by KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>My conversation with Sébastien began with him telling me how, as soon as ChatGPT came on the scene, he got busy experimenting, trying to see if it could help him improve his operations management class. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> In a way, you know, when you have 140 students at the same time, for example, or even more, 200, it’s hard to have individualized conversations with everyone with my time, and I only have this time where it’s me with all the students at the same time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But if they all talk to an AI that personalize the conversation to their own background, I can task the AI to connect the class content with their background. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>The idea is that a student could feed their CV into an AI chatbot that had been trained on Sébastien’s course materials, and the AI would ask some probing questions, ultimately connecting the dots between a student’s individual work experience and interests and what the course would cover.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And this was kind of, was it to just get the student excited about the class? Was that kind of the point of this exercise? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> So the point was for them to know even before they take it why we think it’s good for them to be there. Which changes everything because if you have the attention of people as you even just get started, then communication just flows a little bit better. And if you think about it, there’s no way for me to do this without AI. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Sébastien was such an early adopter of the technology that he was using it before most of his students to solve problems that had nothing to do with AI at all. But it didn’t take too long for AI to start causing problems, too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>You know, AI came like a wrecking ball. And, you know, like, what’s even the meaning of a take-home exam anymore? You know, you can trust the students not to use ChatGPT, but we are at the point where you can just take a screenshot of the exam on your phone and get A+ for everything technical. And so it’s just unfair to ask the students to do it this way. And because, like, how do you even grade it, because some students would respect the rule and maybe a few will run out of time and ask the help of AI. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>It’s been well over three years since Sébastien started experimenting with AI in his classroom. And these days, nearly everything about his course looks pretty different. Some of these changes have been spurred by AI making it really, really easy for students to cheat. But Sébastien says that other changes are more about problems with the old ways of doing things. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>Think about our old ways to evaluate, right? I have students coming from so many different backgrounds that care about so many different things, and I have to have one exam that’s graded by people that don’t necessarily understand their background. And so what does it push us to do? It pushes us to standardization, to always asking, like, very abstract questions about things, or to focus on math instead of, like, deeper understanding about the world, because these can be evaluated more easily. I love math, but it becomes just an exercise in itself, like, almost like a Sudoku. At the end of the day, the exam is just asking them to manipulate numbers because this is what I can evaluate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So let’s get concrete here. With simple problem sets basically out the window, what does Sébastien’s class look like today? Well, for homework, Sébastien might require his students to converse with an AI tutor for maybe 30 minutes, walking through concepts and connecting them to their own experiences. That tutor might be trained in the Socratic method so that rather than giving answers like a standard chatbot, it pushes students to do the thinking themselves. Then, instead of turning in answers, students would upload a log of their chat to be graded pass or fail. Or maybe the tutoring goes the other way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> The homework I just gave, like, a few weeks ago is the, student has to teach the AI what they learn in the last class. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Ah, interesting. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> You see that we say learning by teaching is, like, one of the best ways to learn. And as a professor, I can say that’s very true because I created a new class on AI and I learned a lot just by teaching it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Of course, this technology is changing fast, and there’s really nothing stopping students from building their own AI agent or autonomous AI tool to interact with Sébastien’s AI, and turning in a log of that conversation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>That’s one of the main obstacles our instructors want to get into AI, because it just feels it’s constantly evolving, and whatever I do now, I fix a problem, another problem will appear later. So it’s a very, very real concern.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Well, and this is hard because I’ve done, you know, way back in the day I taught some classes myself, and the first time you teach something, it can be kind of a train wreck, right? And then you kinda get better over time, and you learn what works. So how do you as a professor or a teacher keep up?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> I would turn the question around, and this is why I try to put my students in the loop as much as possible. It’s like, “Here’s the deal,” like, “What is good for you?” You know? “Why are we doing this homework? Why are we doing all of that?” The goal is not just to go for the grade. That would be the mistake.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, the goal is at the end of the day, you know, you learn something. And, you know, if AI is becoming more and more of a commodity that can do anything for us, our deep expertise and our personal thoughts and what makes us unique has even more value, because that’s what differentiates all of it, rather than the things that AI can just automate, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so I think at the end of the day, the answer to this question is also, it’s not only on the professor’s side, it’s also on the students. Like, why are you at Kellogg? What do you wanna get out of all of this? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Some of the changes that Sébastien has made to his class, they aren’t planned. He’ll be in the middle of teaching, he’ll get an idea for how to make something better, and just use AI to make it happen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For example, just a week before our interview, his students were in small breakout groups using class time to discuss a case study, that staple of business school education. The time was flying by. Sure, the students were having wonderful discussions in their small groups, but Sébastien was getting frustrated, realizing there would not be enough time for the entire class to reflect on the ideas that the individual groups had generated.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So while the students were still in their breakout groups, Sébastien explained the dilemma to Claude Code, a popular AI coding tool. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> And so Claude Code was like, “No problem. Let’s do it,” and created something, and by the time students had sent their reply, we had a custom-made software, which was kind of like a constellation of ideas that popped up on the board, and we could see quotes from all the students and the ideas that they had in common and not in common, and this enabled a much deeper conversation because I was able to share all this information instead of just, like, talking to, you know, like, three, four students that were willing to share their ideas.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, it’s just a small thing, but it’s changed the way I taught this class, and it did use AI, and at the end of the day, it’s just about your creativity. Like, it’s a tool that is so powerful that, you know, sometimes, you know, as an instructor, you go, “Oh, it’d be so good to have this,” and then you just use it, and it creates a much better experience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you see here in that case, it increased the communications between humans. Like, of course, AI can sometimes take away from what we do, but in that case, I think it added to what we do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Now, there are tools already on the market that can do this kind of thing. But what was unique was that Sébastien was able to create them on the fly, in that moment for that class. And the best example of how AI has changed Sébastien’s course has to do with the experience of reading the case itself. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> So we turned it into, instead of me giving them a PDF, I tell them that they can interview, “People” from the company and ask any question they want. And I give them access to the CEO, to the CFO, to, like, a frontline worker, to anyone, and then they have to understand the company deeply, kind of like consulting. You interview people, and you understand their relationship, and they all have very different point of views, and some of them don’t even wanna talk to you, and so on. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Well, and “people” are, of course, chatbots with, like, personalities and information that you’ve given them. This is the activity that has gotten Sébastien the most attention, including a big write-up in The Wall Street Journal. I wanted to try it, and Sébastien was kind enough to mentor me through his simulation. We pull it up on his desktop. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Okay, so I am a consultant at Proxima Health Systems?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you’re an AI expert, and they called you because they wanna have a big AI project, and they want it to be successful. And your point of contact is Maya Chen. She’s the leader of this After Visit AI program. Like, she has an AI agent she wants you to build. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Okay, and so I can just start talking to her and say, like, “Hey.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, she’s just waiting for you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> There’s a whole bunch of little avatars representing different people at the company, and I can pick one to have a text chat with. I see the avatar for Maya, my point of contact, and I begin to type. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>‘\u003c/strong>Hi there. I’d love some clarification on what you want me to accomplish.’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Maya tells me that I, the AI expert consultant, will be building her company an AI tool that helps automate the after-visit forms that sales reps fill out after they visit their customers’ hospitals. And after a bit of back and forth with Maya about some of the players involved, including Marcus, a sales manager, and a bit of help from Sébastien, I start to get a sense of the nitty-gritty details involved in my assignment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> And so for this, we have a CRM system, a customer relationship management system, which is like this big database where rep have to enter information. But they hate it. It has to be formatted, made in a very specific way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Ah, I hate it already. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>They spend hours every week. And then so this is why, like, there is this sort of tension because Marcus needs them to enter this information, but they’re like, “Yeah, it doesn’t represent what we see on the ground. Why do you want me to spend all my time on this instead of with the customer?” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Okay, got it. Maya, Marcus, and others in the company want to automate the after-visit forms that the salespeople fill out, apparently to make things easier on the sales team. But then I chat with a member of the sales team, Dana, and Dana doesn’t necessarily think AI will help. She thinks the whole customer relationship system is messed up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>‘Dana makes a number of points. She says it’s like whiplash. She can spend 30 minutes in a unit with a nurse manager who’s stressed out of her mind. She catches the real issue. They come to a conclusion, and then she’s supposed to translate that into 12 little CRM boxes that don’t fit how hospitals actually talk, and then the managers wonder why the notes are vague.’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Dana is a little suspicious of \u003cem>me\u003c/em>, the AI consultant. Here’s how she puts it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“What exactly are you trying to solve? Time, accuracy, or the manager chasing us for missing fields?”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Ooh.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> You’re in the middle of it right now. I am in the middle of it. It’s hard to help her without more information, understanding everything.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>I decide to try to get Dana in line with some tough talk. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>‘All right, Dana. I hear what you’re saying, but you do realize that you are part of this big organization that has a lot of really important goals? I feel like maybe you’re not doing your part.’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin:\u003c/strong> Oh, she’s not happy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>She says, “I am doing my part. That’s the job. What I’m not gonna do is pretend the existing system works the way headquarters imagines.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>How dare you question that I’m doing my job? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: ‘\u003c/strong>Thanks, Dana. I appreciate the straight talk. I love straight talk. What would you like to see?’ \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And now I’m really starting to understand this scenario. It’s not just about coming up with some kind of AI-powered solution to data collection. It’s about understanding the social dynamics in the company. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>‘Cause she’s very afraid. She says, “Not cutting heads.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Not cutting heads. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>She’s really afraid that you’re coming with AI trying to take over her job. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Oh, yeah. That’s a good point. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>You know? Because we’re automating a part of the job that she and her teams do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love\u003c/strong>: Once I understand that there’s anxiety in this company about AI taking jobs, and that this anxiety is driving so many problems, I start having more productive chats with the different characters, and we start making progress.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is what Sebastien says this kind of AI-driven exercise is designed to explore. How to keep asking questions until you understand what’s actually going on, the problems behind the problem, the stuff that only rarely ends up on any official brief. I think there is a risk in education where I’m like, “This is the truth.” This is the answer to this problem.” And, you know, like, for example, if you go on Instagram and you have your newsfeed, you’re not asking for the next thing you wanna see. We’re just so used to just information being provided to us and not to have to think. And then you get into the middle of this and you have a “real person” you talk to, you actually need to decide what’s your next step.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But this is actually where all the thinking happens, right? You’re like, you need to be aware of what you understand and what you don’t understand. You need to, like, plan ahead. You need to also manage your relationship with them. And I think this is where I think the most. Actually, it’s what I feel like it’s the most important thing to think about, in life, you know, in general.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think we don’t have many tools that are not meant to just, like, provide us with the answer, but are meant for us to ask the right question and for us to learn more. And I think AI is a wonderful tool for that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Here, the AI tool isn’t being used to make things easier on students. It’s not making it faster to read the case or offering up a streamlined summary. It’s slowing students down, making them think more. Or that’s the idea. So are his students learning more using this AI-powered simulation than they would’ve the old way, discussing PDFs or writing short essays? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>It’s hard to answer this question for sure. You can only capture it with exams and stuff like that. But AI cases, in the context of this class, were not something that was graded. They were something meant for conversations in the classroom. So then the second best I can give you is I had the most fun I’ve ever had teaching a case. Like, the participation of the students was through the roof.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They had so many ideas. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Sébastien acknowledges that it’s hard to know for sure. Just because students enjoy an activity, recognize it with a teaching award, doesn’t always mean that they’re learning more. But the students tell him they’re learning more because the scenarios feel real. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>The students say that it was very useful to them, especially the students who came from consulting. They say it’s exactly the type of thing I had to be good at. It’s great to see it in the context of AI and so on. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>After the break, this strikes me as the dream scenario for AI in the classroom. But just how common is this dream scenario? Is it limited to the classrooms of super AI savvy teachers, or does Sébastien’s optimism extend to other classrooms, too?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I, like a lot of people, think about this technology as having the ability to both empower people and to disempower or overwhelm them. And it seems like for you, the primary experience has been one of empowerment. But I wanna point out, you are kind of a special case. You are somebody who studies AI, is very, very familiar with using algorithms, and was even before ChatGPT came on the scene, and you also teach highly motivated students at a top business school.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And this is not true of most educators. So my husband teaches high school at Chicago Public Schools, and he assures me that the general consensus among public high school teachers is not one of empowerment. I think a lot of schools are strapped for resources. They don’t always have the opportunity to train instructors in how to manage this technology, and a lot of them have just come to see this as a widespread cheating factory. And so I’m just kind of curious how you think about that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>I mean, first, thank you so much for asking this question. Something I think about a lot, and first it’s very important to highlight that I come from a place of privilege in so many dimensions, as you mentioned. And, you know, because I, so I speak more and more publicly, like right now, about this topic, and I’m always like, “What should you say?” Because, you know, as you saw in this conversation, I choose to highlight the positive because I know that people are very aware of the negative. And I think seeing a bit of light at the end of the tunnel can help. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it is true, you know, that I was lucky to start early and lucky to be in the position I was, and to iterate over time, and I made many, many mistakes. There are things that worked, things that didn’t work. I would say the message, and I really don’t wanna deny at all what public education is going through. I’ve worked a lot also with public education and I know how hard a job it can be, but also how rewarding. What I wanna say is give it a chance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, this technology, for good or bad reason, is most likely here to stay. And if you iterate a little bit with Claude, ChatGPT, whatever, you’ll quickly realize after you overcome this barrier of, you know, not resentment, but this barrier or, like, this technology is really making my job complicated, you quickly realize that it’s a neutral technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, it can do a lot of harm, but it can also allow you as an instructor to create new things and to solve some of the problems. And at first you start very small. You know, you have all of this, like, I forgot how you were saying, like, this cheating factory thing. But then you’re like, “Oh, I can maybe use it that way.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And actually that had a small positive impact. And it looks like a drop in the ocean. But then because you open this door, then curiosity gets in. What if I could do this? And what if I could do that? And all I can say, I know it’s a very minimal point, is there are good things. And yes, they take time, and they take trial and error, and all I can do is show examples. But I think there is value in just knowing that you can use this technology for good. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>So, I am a parent. My kids are a little younger than the students we’ve been talking about, two elementary school-aged kids. And I personally do not want them using AI right now, partly because I think they already spend enough of their lives staring at screens. That is the perennial parenting battle of our age. But also because I want them to learn some really core skills about how to go through the world, and think about problems themselves before I provide them with the scaffolding that AI would provide. And so I wanna ask you, do you think there are some skills that people should have before they turn to AI to learn something?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>I mean, of course take everything that I’m about to say with a grain of salt, because I’m not an expert in that. You’re way more of an expert than me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>We’ll bring in some folks to rebut you point by point. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>But, you know, and also, I wanna highlight that we hear so much about AI these days. I think what’s super, super important to say is we don’t know. You know, like they say, wisdom is to know when you don’t know. Nobody knows where AI is going, okay? Like, but then it’s still good to talk about scenarios, and your analogy with the screens or the smartphone is a great one. You know, there has been a lot of debates, on not allowing screen times and, like, this leading to, children learning more to interact with the world and with each other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think it could be great to do this with AI. I mean, that sounds like a great strategy to me. Then, the one caveat I wanna say on this is one pet peeve that I have is I don’t think AI means anything. It’s kind of you saying humans or electricity. Like, is electricity good or bad? Should we forbid kids to access electricity?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think there are ways to use AI that could be net positives and there are ways to use AI that could be a disaster. So when we say allow kids to access AI, often we think ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini, like the basic thing you can ask all your questions. But for example, I was just talking to a parent and they were playing with their children to create their own song for a story that they invented.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And they used AI to like, put their lyrics that they co-created into a nice song and they were singing it together. Is it a bad use of AI or does it increase creativity? I heard another parent has ChatGPT to, you know, create like, these frames of drawing that you can draw into on things that were very personal. Like they just went on vacation somewhere and let’s actually draw what we went through. And you know you cannot buy a book that’s so personalized. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Like a coloring book of their exact vacation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>Exactly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>Oh, that’s, that is kind of cool. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>You see? Like another example and maybe more the fringe of what’s acceptable is there’s a lot of, there are ways to turn ChatGPT into something that don’t think for you. So the way AI works is there are hidden instructions, and AI follows these hidden instructions. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>That’s right. If you didn’t know, most chatbots have some version of hidden instructions to guide their use; and as a user, you can change the default settings for these instructions, specify how the AI should respond to prompts, including how much information it should provide.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>In the hidden instructions called a system message, you can ask the AI, “Look, you’re talking to a child. Here’s what we really want to avoid. We want them to feel for, to think for themselves. We want them to learn how to be independent. We don’t want them to learn how to rely on you instead of thinking.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But maybe you can encourage their curiosity. And then you let the children talk to this version of ChatGPT, and the AI will just reply to their questions with other questions, and what do you think about this, and what do you think about that? Maybe it’s better than just staring at an iPad on YouTube, you know? Maybe it actually leads you to, to think a bit deeper. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>For the record, I will not be tasking ChatGPT to chat with my children anytime soon, even in appropriately Socratic only ask questions mode. But that coloring book idea, it’s actually kind of a good one, and I take his point. We really don’t know. We don’t know how helpful or harmful AI will ultimately be as an educational tool. Stepping back a bit though, I wanted to know what advice he would have for students, the people on the other end of the educational process. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>I mean, the first one, which is, you know, the one thing I want us to remember from this podcast is, like, stay hopeful. Because, you know, there are reasons to despair from time to time, and especially as humans, we are really not good at dealing with uncertainty. Like, second, staying hopeful and being aware that we tend to only see the downside instead of all the unexpected upside that can come later.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Everyone is in the same boat. Like, it feels like it’s me that doesn’t know what the next step to choose and so on, like what studies should I go for, how should I learn and so on. But it’s not only me, it’s the whole society that has to adapt at the same time. And I think that at least for me, it helps me feel a bit better about it, like, the idea that it’s not me that doesn’t know what to do next and it’s all of us together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it’s like we’re all collectively gonna go through this crazy period together. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>Exactly. And so the more we can, you know, like help each other and so on, the better it is. And, finally, what do you do? You have this huge uncertainty. I’m saying, okay, take it with a grain of salt with all the feedback you receive about what you think you should do and so on, and all of us together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I think a flip side of that is, if you’re, it’s pure uncertainty and we don’t exactly know where things are going, maybe the best thing to do is to follow your heart. I know it sounds a bit cheesy, but you know, at the end of the day, I think it’s better, like, try for all of us to maybe not conform as much as possible and what’s expected of us and follow more, like, our instinct. Maybe there has never been a better time to do that because the uncertainty of the system is the system is gonna change so much that maybe the best path to follow is just what we really like to do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sébastien Martin: \u003c/strong>Thank you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Love: \u003c/strong>AI is forcing students and educators to adapt. And while a lot of attention has been focused on cheating and outsourcing thinking, I think Sébastien makes a compelling case that this adaptation will have some real upsides, that new kinds of learning experiences are now possible, including ones that ask more of students, not less.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But of course, AI is not the first technology to barge into schools. Next episode, we’ll look at how previous technologies have changed education, particularly for younger students, what those technologies delivered, what they failed to deliver, and what this could mean for today’s high schoolers, middle schoolers, elementary school kids growing up alongside AI.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Jess Love. This is Life, Automated, a project of the Ryan Institute on Complexity at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University, distributed by KQED. A special thanks to today’s guest, Sébastien Martin. We’re produced by Jesse Dukes, additional production by Nathan Ray, music by Stephen Jackson, recording by George Christensen and Will Feeney, marketing help from Ananya Mallapragada, administrative support, recording help, and wise counsel from Stacia Sliger.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>A Catholic high school in the East Bay removed \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/lgbtq\">pride flags\u003c/a> ahead of students’ return to campus this week, replacing them with a new symbol that it said affirms the LGBTQ+ community. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a \u003ca href=\"https://www.bishopodowd.org/inclusive-o\">letter\u003c/a> to families last week, Bishop O’Dowd High School President Kim Walsh said the school would introduce the “Inclusive O,” a blocky letter washed in rainbow pride colors, after the classic flags became a “lightning rod” on campus last year. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Walsh wrote that the new “O” will be displayed across the Oakland Hills campus and is meant to “affirm that our LGBTQ+ students, families, faculty, and staff are seen, known, loved, and belong here.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-INCLUSIVE-O-MD-05-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094626\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-INCLUSIVE-O-MD-05-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-INCLUSIVE-O-MD-05-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-INCLUSIVE-O-MD-05-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bishop O’Dowd High School in Oakland on Aug. 10, 2026. (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Diocese of Oakland asked the school to remove the pride flags after someone in the community saw a “progress” flag — which includes the traditional six pride colors, plus a chevron-shaped overlay to the left side in the transgender pride colors, and black and brown — on campus and reported it to Oakland Archbishop Michael Barber.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The school did not immediately comply with the order, but removed flags just before summer break, featuring them in a ceremony in the school’s chapel and replacing them with posters and shirts featuring the “Inclusive O.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Walsh wrote that developing the alternative symbol was a “yearlong process,” during which school leaders “engaged faculty and staff, counselors, parents, the Board of Regents, LGBTQ+ community members, and student leaders” to ask “How do we continue to visibly communicate that every student belongs?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She said that in recent years, the Catholic Church across the U.S. has begun discussing the flags.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In 2023, Barber and Archbishop of San Francisco Salvatore Cordileone issued a joint letter on gender ideology, saying that it “denies certain fundamental aspects of human existence,” including the differences between men and women, and is, as a concept, “opposed to reason, to science, and to a Christian view of the human person.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Walsh wrote that the “Inclusive O,” introduced to students at orientation on Thursday, expresses unwavering commitment to LGBTQ+ members of O’Dowd’s community, which has included openly gay educators for decades, according to previous reporting by \u003ca href=\"https://oaklandside.org/2023/07/20/oakland-catholic-diocese-st-josephs-lgbtq-students-concerned-gender-identity-guidance/\">\u003cem>The\u003c/em> \u003cem>Oaklandside\u003c/em>\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A spokesperson for the school said it has had a unity club for queer students for more than a decade and hosts an annual family day for LGBTQ+ families. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, alumni who created a social media profile opposed to the decision said replacing the traditional flags “directly affects the LGBTQ+ population of the school by removing pieces of representation.”\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>A Catholic high school in the East Bay removed \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/lgbtq\">pride flags\u003c/a> ahead of students’ return to campus this week, replacing them with a new symbol that it said affirms the LGBTQ+ community. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a \u003ca href=\"https://www.bishopodowd.org/inclusive-o\">letter\u003c/a> to families last week, Bishop O’Dowd High School President Kim Walsh said the school would introduce the “Inclusive O,” a blocky letter washed in rainbow pride colors, after the classic flags became a “lightning rod” on campus last year. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Walsh wrote that the new “O” will be displayed across the Oakland Hills campus and is meant to “affirm that our LGBTQ+ students, families, faculty, and staff are seen, known, loved, and belong here.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-INCLUSIVE-O-MD-05-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094626\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-INCLUSIVE-O-MD-05-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-INCLUSIVE-O-MD-05-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-INCLUSIVE-O-MD-05-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bishop O’Dowd High School in Oakland on Aug. 10, 2026. (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Diocese of Oakland asked the school to remove the pride flags after someone in the community saw a “progress” flag — which includes the traditional six pride colors, plus a chevron-shaped overlay to the left side in the transgender pride colors, and black and brown — on campus and reported it to Oakland Archbishop Michael Barber.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The school did not immediately comply with the order, but removed flags just before summer break, featuring them in a ceremony in the school’s chapel and replacing them with posters and shirts featuring the “Inclusive O.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Walsh wrote that developing the alternative symbol was a “yearlong process,” during which school leaders “engaged faculty and staff, counselors, parents, the Board of Regents, LGBTQ+ community members, and student leaders” to ask “How do we continue to visibly communicate that every student belongs?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She said that in recent years, the Catholic Church across the U.S. has begun discussing the flags.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In 2023, Barber and Archbishop of San Francisco Salvatore Cordileone issued a joint letter on gender ideology, saying that it “denies certain fundamental aspects of human existence,” including the differences between men and women, and is, as a concept, “opposed to reason, to science, and to a Christian view of the human person.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Walsh wrote that the “Inclusive O,” introduced to students at orientation on Thursday, expresses unwavering commitment to LGBTQ+ members of O’Dowd’s community, which has included openly gay educators for decades, according to previous reporting by \u003ca href=\"https://oaklandside.org/2023/07/20/oakland-catholic-diocese-st-josephs-lgbtq-students-concerned-gender-identity-guidance/\">\u003cem>The\u003c/em> \u003cem>Oaklandside\u003c/em>\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A spokesperson for the school said it has had a unity club for queer students for more than a decade and hosts an annual family day for LGBTQ+ families. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, alumni who created a social media profile opposed to the decision said replacing the traditional flags “directly affects the LGBTQ+ population of the school by removing pieces of representation.”\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>As \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/oakland-unified-school-district\">Oakland students\u003c/a> arrive back on campus on Monday, they’ll start their school year with a new daily routine — locking their cellphones away in boxes and pouches, instead of having access to them on campus. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Oakland Unified School District in June approved a cellphone ban on its 80 campuses, in line with a state mandate that took effect over the summer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OUSD’s policy, according to Superintendent Denise Saddler, is simple: “Every school day is now a Cell Phone Free Day.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/250428-OUSD-OFFICE-FILE-MD-04_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12043210\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/250428-OUSD-OFFICE-FILE-MD-04_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/250428-OUSD-OFFICE-FILE-MD-04_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/250428-OUSD-OFFICE-FILE-MD-04_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Oakland Unified School District Offices in Oakland on April 28, 2025. (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“During class, between classes, and during lunch, students will not be allowed to use their cell phones except in limited circumstances,” she wrote in a letter to families in July. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>How schools restrict cellphones on campus has become a controversial issue for districts across the state, as they balance concerns about distraction and cyberbullying with some parents’ desire to maintain communication with their children throughout the day. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Area school districts in San Mateo, San José and Marin have tightened cellphone restrictions in recent years, and in 2024, Gov. Gavin Newsom signed new \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2024/09/23/governor-newsom-signs-legislation-to-limit-the-use-of-smartphones-during-school-hours/\">legislation\u003c/a> requiring districts to develop rules restricting student cellphone use during school by July 1. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Oakland’s enforcement methods will be two-fold: at most elementary campuses, students will be required to put their phones in classroom lockboxes, while at the secondary level, students will put their devices in individual pouches, called Yondr Pouches, that lock during school hours. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Phone bans have already been in effect at some campuses, including Life Academy in East Oakland, which piloted the Yondr Pouch system during the 2025-26 school year. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the sixth through eighth grade campus in East Oakland, students are required to put their phone in the lockable, fabric bag at the start of the school day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Their first period teacher — which for middle schoolers is an advisory and varies for high schoolers depending on their schedule — is required to do a pouch check each morning, according to eighth grade humanities teacher Gabriel Kahn. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Students keep their devices, which are locked in their pouch, throughout the day. It is unlocked at dismissal, according to OUSD.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092171\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A 14-year-old boy looks at an iPhone screen displaying various social media and messaging apps on March 29, 2026, in Bath, England. (Anna Barclay/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The results were phenomenal,” Kahn said. “We saw a decrease in school drama, we saw an increase in focus, we saw an increase in attention from our students.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One of the biggest differences, he said, is how often students left class to use the restroom. He said in his classroom, student bathroom use decreased by about 80% compared to previous years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We do a pretty good job of making sure kids aren’t on their phones in the room, but when they go to the bathroom, it’s an unmonitored space,” Kahn said. “If their phone isn’t put away in a Yondr Pouch, you can best believe that they’re on their phone.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Blake Rodgers, a rising senior at Oakland Tech, said she understands the district’s desire to eliminate distractions, but worries about safety without her phone, especially after a shooting and other recent violence on OUSD campuses. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s really hard to get in contact with people, even with your phone,” she said. “Without a phone, I think people will be completely left in the dark, and that is a scary thing to be in.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While OUSD’s policy rolls out next week, other districts have been using Yondr Pouches for years, including the San Mateo-Foster City School District, which rolled out the technology in the fall of 2022. San Mateo’s high school district also utilizes the pouches on multiple campuses. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/250418-SFUSD-01-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12046126\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/250418-SFUSD-01-BL_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/250418-SFUSD-01-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/250418-SFUSD-01-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The San Francisco Unified School District Administrative Offices in San Francisco on April 18, 2025. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In Marin, the Tam Unified School District has required students to put their phones in numbered pouches during class periods since 2024, but strengthened its policy ahead of this fall, introducing locked plastic storage boxes that will block all use during the school day. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>San Francisco’s school district avoided implementing a full ban, opting instead to maintain its existing cellphone policy, which states that “mobile communication devices shall be turned off and put away during instructional time, including during passing period.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Saddler’s letter, Oakland students will be allowed to access their phones under multiple circumstances per the state law, including if they have a health or safety emergency, or when a teacher, administrator or doctor authorizes it.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>OUSD’s policy, according to Superintendent Denise Saddler, is simple: “Every school day is now a Cell Phone Free Day.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“During class, between classes, and during lunch, students will not be allowed to use their cell phones except in limited circumstances,” she wrote in a letter to families in July. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bay Area school districts in San Mateo, San José and Marin have tightened cellphone restrictions in recent years, and in 2024, Gov. Gavin Newsom signed new \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2024/09/23/governor-newsom-signs-legislation-to-limit-the-use-of-smartphones-during-school-hours/\">legislation\u003c/a> requiring districts to develop rules restricting student cellphone use during school by July 1. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Oakland’s enforcement methods will be two-fold: at most elementary campuses, students will be required to put their phones in classroom lockboxes, while at the secondary level, students will put their devices in individual pouches, called Yondr Pouches, that lock during school hours. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Their first period teacher — which for middle schoolers is an advisory and varies for high schoolers depending on their schedule — is required to do a pouch check each morning, according to eighth grade humanities teacher Gabriel Kahn. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The results were phenomenal,” Kahn said. “We saw a decrease in school drama, we saw an increase in focus, we saw an increase in attention from our students.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>One of the biggest differences, he said, is how often students left class to use the restroom. He said in his classroom, student bathroom use decreased by about 80% compared to previous years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We do a pretty good job of making sure kids aren’t on their phones in the room, but when they go to the bathroom, it’s an unmonitored space,” Kahn said. “If their phone isn’t put away in a Yondr Pouch, you can best believe that they’re on their phone.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Blake Rodgers, a rising senior at Oakland Tech, said she understands the district’s desire to eliminate distractions, but worries about safety without her phone, especially after a shooting and other recent violence on OUSD campuses. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It’s really hard to get in contact with people, even with your phone,” she said. “Without a phone, I think people will be completely left in the dark, and that is a scary thing to be in.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>While OUSD’s policy rolls out next week, other districts have been using Yondr Pouches for years, including the San Mateo-Foster City School District, which rolled out the technology in the fall of 2022. San Mateo’s high school district also utilizes the pouches on multiple campuses. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In Marin, the Tam Unified School District has required students to put their phones in numbered pouches during class periods since 2024, but strengthened its policy ahead of this fall, introducing locked plastic storage boxes that will block all use during the school day. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>San Francisco’s school district avoided implementing a full ban, opting instead to maintain its existing cellphone policy, which states that “mobile communication devices shall be turned off and put away during instructional time, including during passing period.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>According to Saddler’s letter, Oakland students will be allowed to access their phones under multiple circumstances per the state law, including if they have a health or safety emergency, or when a teacher, administrator or doctor authorizes it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>As \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/oakland-unified-school-district\">Oakland students\u003c/a> arrive back on campus on Monday, they’ll start their school year with a new daily routine — locking their cellphones away in boxes and pouches, instead of having access to them on campus. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Oakland Unified School District in June approved a cellphone ban on its 80 campuses, in line with a state mandate that took effect over the summer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OUSD’s policy, according to Superintendent Denise Saddler, is simple: “Every school day is now a Cell Phone Free Day.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/250428-OUSD-OFFICE-FILE-MD-04_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12043210\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/250428-OUSD-OFFICE-FILE-MD-04_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/250428-OUSD-OFFICE-FILE-MD-04_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/250428-OUSD-OFFICE-FILE-MD-04_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Oakland Unified School District Offices in Oakland on April 28, 2025. (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“During class, between classes, and during lunch, students will not be allowed to use their cell phones except in limited circumstances,” she wrote in a letter to families in July. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>How schools restrict cellphones on campus has become a controversial issue for districts across the state, as they balance concerns about distraction and cyberbullying with some parents’ desire to maintain communication with their children throughout the day. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Area school districts in San Mateo, San José and Marin have tightened cellphone restrictions in recent years, and in 2024, Gov. Gavin Newsom signed new \u003ca href=\"https://www.gov.ca.gov/2024/09/23/governor-newsom-signs-legislation-to-limit-the-use-of-smartphones-during-school-hours/\">legislation\u003c/a> requiring districts to develop rules restricting student cellphone use during school by July 1. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Oakland’s enforcement methods will be two-fold: at most elementary campuses, students will be required to put their phones in classroom lockboxes, while at the secondary level, students will put their devices in individual pouches, called Yondr Pouches, that lock during school hours. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Phone bans have already been in effect at some campuses, including Life Academy in East Oakland, which piloted the Yondr Pouch system during the 2025-26 school year. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the sixth through eighth grade campus in East Oakland, students are required to put their phone in the lockable, fabric bag at the start of the school day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Their first period teacher — which for middle schoolers is an advisory and varies for high schoolers depending on their schedule — is required to do a pouch check each morning, according to eighth grade humanities teacher Gabriel Kahn. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Students keep their devices, which are locked in their pouch, throughout the day. It is unlocked at dismissal, according to OUSD.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092171\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/AIGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A 14-year-old boy looks at an iPhone screen displaying various social media and messaging apps on March 29, 2026, in Bath, England. (Anna Barclay/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The results were phenomenal,” Kahn said. “We saw a decrease in school drama, we saw an increase in focus, we saw an increase in attention from our students.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One of the biggest differences, he said, is how often students left class to use the restroom. He said in his classroom, student bathroom use decreased by about 80% compared to previous years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We do a pretty good job of making sure kids aren’t on their phones in the room, but when they go to the bathroom, it’s an unmonitored space,” Kahn said. “If their phone isn’t put away in a Yondr Pouch, you can best believe that they’re on their phone.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Blake Rodgers, a rising senior at Oakland Tech, said she understands the district’s desire to eliminate distractions, but worries about safety without her phone, especially after a shooting and other recent violence on OUSD campuses. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s really hard to get in contact with people, even with your phone,” she said. “Without a phone, I think people will be completely left in the dark, and that is a scary thing to be in.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While OUSD’s policy rolls out next week, other districts have been using Yondr Pouches for years, including the San Mateo-Foster City School District, which rolled out the technology in the fall of 2022. San Mateo’s high school district also utilizes the pouches on multiple campuses. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/250418-SFUSD-01-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12046126\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/250418-SFUSD-01-BL_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/250418-SFUSD-01-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/250418-SFUSD-01-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The San Francisco Unified School District Administrative Offices in San Francisco on April 18, 2025. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In Marin, the Tam Unified School District has required students to put their phones in numbered pouches during class periods since 2024, but strengthened its policy ahead of this fall, introducing locked plastic storage boxes that will block all use during the school day. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>San Francisco’s school district avoided implementing a full ban, opting instead to maintain its existing cellphone policy, which states that “mobile communication devices shall be turned off and put away during instructional time, including during passing period.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Saddler’s letter, Oakland students will be allowed to access their phones under multiple circumstances per the state law, including if they have a health or safety emergency, or when a teacher, administrator or doctor authorizes it.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "richmonds-kennedy-high-to-stay-closed-pending-test-for-toxic-chemical",
"title": "Richmond’s Kennedy High to Stay Closed Pending Test for Toxic Chemical",
"publishDate": 1786140390,
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"headTitle": "Richmond’s Kennedy High to Stay Closed Pending Test for Toxic Chemical | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>Students and staff may not be returning to John F. Kennedy High School campus in Richmond for the new school year as the state carries out more testing for tetrachloroethylene — a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/pollution\">carcinogenic solvent\u003c/a> once common in the dry-cleaning process. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The West Contra Costa Unified School District closed Kennedy out of what it called an abundance of caution after underground soil samples detected “varying levels” of the solvent otherwise known as PCE on July 31. Kennedy is \u003ca href=\"https://richmondside.org/2026/08/05/richmond-has-6-pce-chemical-sources-under-investigation/\">one of six\u003c/a> PCE sources in Richmond under investigation, and, along with the former headquarters of the pharmaceutical giant AstraZeneca, is one of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1981077/state-regulators-scrutinize-climate-plan-for-controversial-richmond-housing-development\">115 toxic spots across the city\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kennedy High School’s soil may have become contaminated from a PCE plume linked to a dry cleaner that operated at its San Pablo Avenue location for 40 years, officials with the Department of Toxic Substances Control said Thursday at a town hall in the Richmond Memorial Auditorium.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260807-Kennedy-High-BK-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094385\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260807-Kennedy-High-BK-02-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260807-Kennedy-High-BK-02-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260807-Kennedy-High-BK-02-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The campus of John F. Kennedy High School in Richmond is closed on Aug. 7, 2026. The campus has been under construction since 2025. (Brian Krans/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The current and former owners of Omo’s Fabricare Dry Cleaners reached \u003ca href=\"https://dtsc.ca.gov/2026/03/26/dtsc-secures-more-than-100000-settlement-with-former-bay-area-dry-cleaner-for-cleanup-violations/\">a $100,800 settlement\u003c/a> with the state in March for failing to effectively clean up the site. A \u003ca href=\"http://envirostor.dtsc.ca.gov/getfile?filename=/public%2Fdeliverable_documents%2F4800373673%2F20231006%20OMO%20ORDER_enc_signed.pdf\">cleanup order from 2023\u003c/a> said the dry cleaner transitioned to safer solvents in the early 2000s before closing in 2015. The site has been fenced off and unoccupied since 2017. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>State officials told the school district there is no immediate danger to students or staff. On Friday afternoon, the school nevertheless remained closed until further notice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The campus has been \u003ca href=\"https://www.wccusd.net/departments-and-areas/facilities-construction-projects/kennedy-modernization\">under construction\u003c/a> following the July 2025 demolition of Kennedy High School’s main building as part of a school modernization plan. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the town hall on Thursday, Jeff Carter, assistant superintendent of business services for the school district, said WCCUSD has chosen alternative sites for Kennedy students to begin their school year if air-sample testing shows a danger. Those sites include Contra Costa College in San Pablo, the Craneway Pavilion on the waterfront next to the ferry terminal, or some other district-owned site.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We are planning for no delays for the start of the school year for Kennedy High School,” Carter said. “The test results will help us determine where we will open for the start of school.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Carter said testing of the site will continue through Saturday, with results expected by Wednesday of next week. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The first day of school for the district is Aug. 18.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ian Utz, a DTSC senior environmental scientist and project manager, said there is no immediate risk to neighbors of the Kennedy campus, and that testing will show if PCE made it indoors where students and staff could be exposed. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260807-Kennedy-High-BK-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094386\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260807-Kennedy-High-BK-03-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260807-Kennedy-High-BK-03-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260807-Kennedy-High-BK-03-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Posters announce the closure of John F. Kennedy High School in Richmond on Aug. 7, 2026, a week after soil samples detected the presence of PCE, a carcinogenic solvent used in dry cleaning. (Brian Krans/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Utz said concerns over contamination date back two decades before PCE was detected on July 31. He said it was unclear when PCE first entered the campus, but it was detected in five out of six soil samples taken along Cutting Boulevard and 45th Street.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Additional steps may be warranted,” Utz said. “In the meantime, DTSC continues its investigation to determine the source of the contamination and the extent of impacts on both the school site and the surrounding neighborhood.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In addition to the Kennedy campus, city officials closed the adjacent Richmond Swim Center until further notice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaShonda White, Richmond’s deputy city manager for community services, said The Plunge in Point Richmond, which is open seven days a week, will host all registered classes at the swim center until the city and school district deem the swim center safe to reopen.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Students and staff may not be returning to John F. Kennedy High School campus in Richmond for the new school year as the state carries out more testing for tetrachloroethylene — a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/pollution\">carcinogenic solvent\u003c/a> once common in the dry-cleaning process. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Students and staff may not be returning to John F. Kennedy High School campus in Richmond for the new school year as the state carries out more testing for tetrachloroethylene — a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/pollution\">carcinogenic solvent\u003c/a> once common in the dry-cleaning process. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The West Contra Costa Unified School District closed Kennedy out of what it called an abundance of caution after underground soil samples detected “varying levels” of the solvent otherwise known as PCE on July 31. Kennedy is \u003ca href=\"https://richmondside.org/2026/08/05/richmond-has-6-pce-chemical-sources-under-investigation/\">one of six\u003c/a> PCE sources in Richmond under investigation, and, along with the former headquarters of the pharmaceutical giant AstraZeneca, is one of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1981077/state-regulators-scrutinize-climate-plan-for-controversial-richmond-housing-development\">115 toxic spots across the city\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Kennedy High School’s soil may have become contaminated from a PCE plume linked to a dry cleaner that operated at its San Pablo Avenue location for 40 years, officials with the Department of Toxic Substances Control said Thursday at a town hall in the Richmond Memorial Auditorium.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Kennedy High School’s soil may have become contaminated from a PCE plume linked to a dry cleaner that operated at its San Pablo Avenue location for 40 years, officials with the Department of Toxic Substances Control said Thursday at a town hall in the Richmond Memorial Auditorium.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260807-Kennedy-High-BK-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094385\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260807-Kennedy-High-BK-02-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260807-Kennedy-High-BK-02-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260807-Kennedy-High-BK-02-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The campus of John F. Kennedy High School in Richmond is closed on Aug. 7, 2026. The campus has been under construction since 2025. \u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The current and former owners of Omo’s Fabricare Dry Cleaners reached \u003ca href=\"https://dtsc.ca.gov/2026/03/26/dtsc-secures-more-than-100000-settlement-with-former-bay-area-dry-cleaner-for-cleanup-violations/\">a $100,800 settlement\u003c/a> with the state in March for failing to effectively clean up the site. A \u003ca href=\"http://envirostor.dtsc.ca.gov/getfile?filename=/public%2Fdeliverable_documents%2F4800373673%2F20231006%20OMO%20ORDER_enc_signed.pdf\">cleanup order from 2023\u003c/a> said the dry cleaner transitioned to safer solvents in the early 2000s before closing in 2015. The site has been fenced off and unoccupied since 2017. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The current and former owners of Omo’s Fabricare Dry Cleaners reached \u003ca href=\"https://dtsc.ca.gov/2026/03/26/dtsc-secures-more-than-100000-settlement-with-former-bay-area-dry-cleaner-for-cleanup-violations/\">a $100,800 settlement\u003c/a> with the state in March for failing to effectively clean up the site. A \u003ca href=\"http://envirostor.dtsc.ca.gov/getfile?filename=/public%2Fdeliverable_documents%2F4800373673%2F20231006%20OMO%20ORDER_enc_signed.pdf\">cleanup order from 2023\u003c/a> said the dry cleaner transitioned to safer solvents in the early 2000s before closing in 2015. The site has been fenced off and unoccupied since 2017. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>State officials told the school district there is no immediate danger to students or staff. On Friday afternoon, the school nevertheless remained closed until further notice.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The campus has been \u003ca href=\"https://www.wccusd.net/departments-and-areas/facilities-construction-projects/kennedy-modernization\">under construction\u003c/a> following the July 2025 demolition of Kennedy High School’s main building as part of a school modernization plan. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At the town hall on Thursday, Jeff Carter, assistant superintendent of business services for the school district, said WCCUSD has chosen alternative sites for Kennedy students to begin their school year if air-sample testing shows a danger. Those sites include Contra Costa College in San Pablo, the Craneway Pavilion on the waterfront next to the ferry terminal, or some other district-owned site.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>At the town hall on Thursday, Jeff Carter, assistant superintendent of business services for the school district, said WCCUSD has chosen alternative sites for Kennedy students to begin their school year if air-sample testing shows a danger. Those sites include Contra Costa College in San Pablo, the Craneway Pavilion on the waterfront next to the ferry terminal, or some other district-owned site.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We are planning for no delays for the start of the school year for Kennedy High School,” Carter said. “The test results will help us determine where we will open for the start of school.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Carter said testing of the site will continue through Saturday, with results expected by Wednesday of next week. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The first day of school for the district is Aug. 18.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ian Utz, a DTSC senior environmental scientist and project manager, said there is no immediate risk to neighbors of the Kennedy campus, and that testing will show if PCE made it indoors where students and staff could be exposed. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Ian Utz, a DTSC senior environmental scientist and project manager, said there is no immediate risk to neighbors of the Kennedy campus, and that testing will show if PCE made it indoors where students and staff could be exposed. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260807-Kennedy-High-BK-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094386\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260807-Kennedy-High-BK-03-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260807-Kennedy-High-BK-03-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260807-Kennedy-High-BK-03-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Posters announce the closure of John F. Kennedy High School in Richmond on Aug. 7, 2026, a week after soil samples detected the presence of PCE, a carcinogenic solvent used in dry cleaning.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Utz said concerns over contamination date back two decades before PCE was detected on July 31. He said it was unclear when PCE first entered the campus, but it was detected in five out of six soil samples taken along Cutting Boulevard and 45th Street.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Additional steps may be warranted,” Utz said. “In the meantime, DTSC continues its investigation to determine the source of the contamination and the extent of impacts on both the school site and the surrounding neighborhood.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In addition to the Kennedy campus, city officials closed the adjacent Richmond Swim Center until further notice. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>LaShonda White, Richmond’s deputy city manager for community services, said The Plunge in Point Richmond, which is open seven days a week, will host all registered classes at the swim center until the city and school district deem the swim center safe to reopen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "The West Contra Costa Unified School District wants to know if the same carcinogenic solvent that turned up in soil samples is also in the air.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Students and staff may not be returning to John F. Kennedy High School campus in Richmond for the new school year as the state carries out more testing for tetrachloroethylene — a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/pollution\">carcinogenic solvent\u003c/a> once common in the dry-cleaning process. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The West Contra Costa Unified School District closed Kennedy out of what it called an abundance of caution after underground soil samples detected “varying levels” of the solvent otherwise known as PCE on July 31. Kennedy is \u003ca href=\"https://richmondside.org/2026/08/05/richmond-has-6-pce-chemical-sources-under-investigation/\">one of six\u003c/a> PCE sources in Richmond under investigation, and, along with the former headquarters of the pharmaceutical giant AstraZeneca, is one of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1981077/state-regulators-scrutinize-climate-plan-for-controversial-richmond-housing-development\">115 toxic spots across the city\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kennedy High School’s soil may have become contaminated from a PCE plume linked to a dry cleaner that operated at its San Pablo Avenue location for 40 years, officials with the Department of Toxic Substances Control said Thursday at a town hall in the Richmond Memorial Auditorium.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260807-Kennedy-High-BK-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094385\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260807-Kennedy-High-BK-02-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260807-Kennedy-High-BK-02-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260807-Kennedy-High-BK-02-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The campus of John F. Kennedy High School in Richmond is closed on Aug. 7, 2026. The campus has been under construction since 2025. (Brian Krans/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The current and former owners of Omo’s Fabricare Dry Cleaners reached \u003ca href=\"https://dtsc.ca.gov/2026/03/26/dtsc-secures-more-than-100000-settlement-with-former-bay-area-dry-cleaner-for-cleanup-violations/\">a $100,800 settlement\u003c/a> with the state in March for failing to effectively clean up the site. A \u003ca href=\"http://envirostor.dtsc.ca.gov/getfile?filename=/public%2Fdeliverable_documents%2F4800373673%2F20231006%20OMO%20ORDER_enc_signed.pdf\">cleanup order from 2023\u003c/a> said the dry cleaner transitioned to safer solvents in the early 2000s before closing in 2015. The site has been fenced off and unoccupied since 2017. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>State officials told the school district there is no immediate danger to students or staff. On Friday afternoon, the school nevertheless remained closed until further notice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The campus has been \u003ca href=\"https://www.wccusd.net/departments-and-areas/facilities-construction-projects/kennedy-modernization\">under construction\u003c/a> following the July 2025 demolition of Kennedy High School’s main building as part of a school modernization plan. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the town hall on Thursday, Jeff Carter, assistant superintendent of business services for the school district, said WCCUSD has chosen alternative sites for Kennedy students to begin their school year if air-sample testing shows a danger. Those sites include Contra Costa College in San Pablo, the Craneway Pavilion on the waterfront next to the ferry terminal, or some other district-owned site.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We are planning for no delays for the start of the school year for Kennedy High School,” Carter said. “The test results will help us determine where we will open for the start of school.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Carter said testing of the site will continue through Saturday, with results expected by Wednesday of next week. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The first day of school for the district is Aug. 18.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ian Utz, a DTSC senior environmental scientist and project manager, said there is no immediate risk to neighbors of the Kennedy campus, and that testing will show if PCE made it indoors where students and staff could be exposed. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260807-Kennedy-High-BK-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094386\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260807-Kennedy-High-BK-03-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260807-Kennedy-High-BK-03-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260807-Kennedy-High-BK-03-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Posters announce the closure of John F. Kennedy High School in Richmond on Aug. 7, 2026, a week after soil samples detected the presence of PCE, a carcinogenic solvent used in dry cleaning. (Brian Krans/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Utz said concerns over contamination date back two decades before PCE was detected on July 31. He said it was unclear when PCE first entered the campus, but it was detected in five out of six soil samples taken along Cutting Boulevard and 45th Street.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Additional steps may be warranted,” Utz said. “In the meantime, DTSC continues its investigation to determine the source of the contamination and the extent of impacts on both the school site and the surrounding neighborhood.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In addition to the Kennedy campus, city officials closed the adjacent Richmond Swim Center until further notice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LaShonda White, Richmond’s deputy city manager for community services, said The Plunge in Point Richmond, which is open seven days a week, will host all registered classes at the swim center until the city and school district deem the swim center safe to reopen.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "stanford-cuts-ties-with-flock-safety-shifts-to-new-surveillance-vendor",
"title": "Stanford Cuts Ties With Flock Safety, Shifts to New Surveillance Vendor",
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"headTitle": "Stanford Cuts Ties With Flock Safety, Shifts to New Surveillance Vendor | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>Stanford University’s license plate cameras have been covered up and switched off since late July, when the university quietly ended its contract with \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/flock-safety\">Flock Safety\u003c/a> and signed with a different vendor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The replacement, a system called Genetec Cloudrunner, is scheduled to be installed by early September, along with new solar hardware, said Luisa Rapport, a Stanford spokesperson. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The change was influenced by the desire to balance the privacy of our community with access by Stanford’s Department of Public Safety (DPS) to an important tool that supports the safety of our campus,” Rapport said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/GETTYIMAGES-2265184865-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12076122\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/GETTYIMAGES-2265184865-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/GETTYIMAGES-2265184865-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/GETTYIMAGES-2265184865-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A Flock Safety license plate recognition camera is seen near the intersection of Marine Street and Arapahoe Avenue in Boulder on March 5, 2026. (Matthew Jonas/MediaNews Group/Boulder Daily Camera via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Patrick Dunkley, Stanford’s vice provost for institutional equity, access and community, said in the \u003ca href=\"https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2026/08/new-license-plate-camera-company?mkt_tok=NjYwLVRKQy05ODQAAAGja9aYyq4G3yMJgV-8RVQrooM0DvbjAjxjwVHKSVzF9JN-EbTLdaSrjr0bHQtEK4Cmtxp5c672VZp20DdRyqNRzzgFFy9k23QupnBt6vo\">university’s announcement\u003c/a> that unlike Flock, the new system “is designed for use within a single institution.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090103/get-the-flock-out-the-heated-debate-over-license-plate-readers\">Flock’s cameras\u003c/a> photograph every passing vehicle and build what the company calls a vehicle fingerprint, logging the plate along with the make, model and details like bumper stickers or dents. Those records feed a shared national database that other agencies on Flock’s network can search. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Stanford said its own data never traveled that way, but Rapport acknowledged the capability existed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Flock is built as a shared network, she said, “even if that’s not how we chose to use it,” while the new system does not have third-party access built into its architecture.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Flock disputed that framing. A company spokesperson said customers control their own sharing settings, that those relationships are opt-in, and that an agency can change or revoke them at any time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The spokesperson said Flock has since added California-specific safeguards, disabling its National Lookup feature for California agencies, blocking out-of-state discoverability and preventing new out-of-state or federal sharing arrangements. California agencies cannot use the platform to share data outside the state or with federal authorities, the company said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Flock declined to say when Stanford’s service ended or whether the university paid anything to get out of the contract, saying it does not discuss specifics of customer accounts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Under Genetec, still images from cameras installed at campus entrances will sit in a cloud server for under an hour before moving to a server Stanford controls, where the university said it will keep them for 30 days.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Rapport said cameras were not installed on university property beyond the main campus.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A \u003ca href=\"https://police.stanford.edu/pdf/Flock%20Annual%20Report%202024-25.pdf\">university report\u003c/a> covering September 2024 through August 2025 logged 1,742 individual searches in the Flock system across 129 investigations by 20 employees, used in property crime, violent crime, and stalking cases, as well as welfare checks and missing person searches. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251210-STANFORDFILE00607_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12067141\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251210-STANFORDFILE00607_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251210-STANFORDFILE00607_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251210-STANFORDFILE00607_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Hoover Tower at Stanford University in Palo Alto on Dec. 10, 2025. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The report notes no formal complaints and states that no data was given to anyone outside the university. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>DPS Chief Laura Wilson has called the cameras an important investigative tool, and the university credits them with helping arrest two serial thieves on campus.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Flock said it respects Stanford’s decision to evaluate the technology against its own policies and community priorities, but framed the loss as a setback. “When a tool that is actively helping solve violent crimes is removed, public safety moves backward,” the spokesperson said, adding that cases take longer to solve and victims wait longer for justice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The switch lands in the middle of a regional reckoning. Santa Cruz became the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069705/santa-cruz-the-first-in-california-to-terminate-its-contract-with-flock-safety\">first California city\u003c/a> to cancel its Flock contract in January, after officials confirmed out-of-state agencies had reached its data. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12072077/as-california-cities-grow-wary-of-flock-safety-cameras-mountain-views-shuts-its-off\">Mountain View shut\u003c/a> its cameras off in February following a similar discovery. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12074467/santa-clara-county-leaders-cut-out-flock-safety-in-new-surveillance-policy\">Santa Clara County supervisors\u003c/a> amended their surveillance policy to effectively bar Flock as a vendor in Cupertino, Saratoga and Los Altos Hills. Asked whether that county action forced Stanford’s hand, Rapport said the policy does not apply to the campus.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Flock said the departures are outpaced by new business. So far this year, the company said, new city partnerships have exceeded nonrenewals by roughly seven to one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A man with a fluorescent yellow coat holds a black machine.\" class=\"wp-image-11984097\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A Flock Safety worker holds up a new automated license plate reader that was being installed in East San José on April 23, 2024. (Joseph Geha/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>San José, however, decided to keep its 474 Flock cameras in March but \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12075999/san-jose-is-the-latest-bay-area-city-to-restrict-flock-license-plate-cameras\">cut default data retention \u003c/a>from a year to 30 days and barred cameras near reproductive health clinics and places of worship. The city is currently facing a lawsuit from advocates \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12080233/san-jose-residents-sue-city-saying-flock-safety-cameras-allow-mass-surveillance\">who want to end the contract outright\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Nearby Palo Alto’s contract with Flock runs through December 2029, and its 30 cameras are still operating.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Meghan Horrigan-Taylor, a city spokesperson, said the city is negotiating with Flock over contract language meant to tighten the company’s obligation to secure data, and the department remains open to other vendors. The City Council will take up an independent audit of the program on Aug. 24.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Palo Alto has received no federal request for license plate data this year, she said, and shares data only through agency agreements, including one with Stanford’s police.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A\u003ca href=\"https://sanmateo.courts.ca.gov/system/files/grand-jury/auto-license-plate-readers-report.pdf\"> San Mateo County Civil Grand Jury report\u003c/a> released Aug. 3 found that at least 12 of the county’s 18 police agencies were sharing license plate data with private university security forces, naming Stanford and the University of the Pacific. The jury said none had established that a private university’s security department meets the legal definition of a public agency, the only kind of entity state law permits them to share with, and recommended they obtain a written legal determination or end the sharing.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Stanford University’s license plate cameras have been covered up and switched off since late July, when the university quietly ended its contract with \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/flock-safety\">Flock Safety\u003c/a> and signed with a different vendor.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The replacement, a system called Genetec Cloudrunner, is scheduled to be installed by early September, along with new solar hardware, said Luisa Rapport, a Stanford spokesperson. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The change was influenced by the desire to balance the privacy of our community with access by Stanford’s Department of Public Safety (DPS) to an important tool that supports the safety of our campus,” Rapport said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/GETTYIMAGES-2265184865-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12076122\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/GETTYIMAGES-2265184865-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/GETTYIMAGES-2265184865-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/GETTYIMAGES-2265184865-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A Flock Safety license plate recognition camera is seen near the intersection of Marine Street and Arapahoe Avenue in Boulder on March 5, 2026.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Patrick Dunkley, Stanford’s vice provost for institutional equity, access and community, said in the \u003ca href=\"https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2026/08/new-license-plate-camera-company?mkt_tok=NjYwLVRKQy05ODQAAAGja9aYyq4G3yMJgV-8RVQrooM0DvbjAjxjwVHKSVzF9JN-EbTLdaSrjr0bHQtEK4Cmtxp5c672VZp20DdRyqNRzzgFFy9k23QupnBt6vo\">university’s announcement\u003c/a> that unlike Flock, the new system “is designed for use within a single institution.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090103/get-the-flock-out-the-heated-debate-over-license-plate-readers\">Flock’s cameras\u003c/a> photograph every passing vehicle and build what the company calls a vehicle fingerprint, logging the plate along with the make, model and details like bumper stickers or dents. Those records feed a shared national database that other agencies on Flock’s network can search. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Stanford said its own data never traveled that way, but Rapport acknowledged the capability existed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Flock is built as a shared network, she said, “even if that’s not how we chose to use it,” while the new system does not have third-party access built into its architecture.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Flock disputed that framing. A company spokesperson said customers control their own sharing settings, that those relationships are opt-in, and that an agency can change or revoke them at any time. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The spokesperson said Flock has since added California-specific safeguards, disabling its National Lookup feature for California agencies, blocking out-of-state discoverability and preventing new out-of-state or federal sharing arrangements. California agencies cannot use the platform to share data outside the state or with federal authorities, the company said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The spokesperson said Flock has since added California-specific safeguards, disabling its National Lookup feature for California agencies, blocking out-of-state discoverability and preventing new out-of-state or federal sharing arrangements. California agencies cannot use the platform to share data outside the state or with federal authorities, the company said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Flock declined to say when Stanford’s service ended or whether the university paid anything to get out of the contract, saying it does not discuss specifics of customer accounts.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Under Genetec, still images from cameras installed at campus entrances will sit in a cloud server for under an hour before moving to a server Stanford controls, where the university said it will keep them for 30 days.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Rapport said cameras were not installed on university property beyond the main campus.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A \u003ca href=\"https://police.stanford.edu/pdf/Flock%20Annual%20Report%202024-25.pdf\">university report\u003c/a> covering September 2024 through August 2025 logged 1,742 individual searches in the Flock system across 129 investigations by 20 employees, used in property crime, violent crime, and stalking cases, as well as welfare checks and missing person searches. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A \u003ca href=\"https://police.stanford.edu/pdf/Flock%20Annual%20Report%202024-25.pdf\">university report\u003c/a> covering September 2024 through August 2025 logged 1,742 individual searches in the Flock system across 129 investigations by 20 employees, used in property crime, violent crime, and stalking cases, as well as welfare checks and missing person searches. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251210-STANFORDFILE00607_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12067141\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251210-STANFORDFILE00607_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251210-STANFORDFILE00607_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251210-STANFORDFILE00607_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Hoover Tower at Stanford University in Palo Alto on Dec. 10, 2025.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The report notes no formal complaints and states that no data was given to anyone outside the university. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>DPS Chief Laura Wilson has called the cameras an important investigative tool, and the university credits them with helping arrest two serial thieves on campus.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Flock said it respects Stanford’s decision to evaluate the technology against its own policies and community priorities, but framed the loss as a setback. “When a tool that is actively helping solve violent crimes is removed, public safety moves backward,” the spokesperson said, adding that cases take longer to solve and victims wait longer for justice.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Flock said it respects Stanford’s decision to evaluate the technology against its own policies and community priorities, but framed the loss as a setback. “When a tool that is actively helping solve violent crimes is removed, public safety moves backward,” the spokesperson said, adding that cases take longer to solve and victims wait longer for justice.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The switch lands in the middle of a regional reckoning. Santa Cruz became the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069705/santa-cruz-the-first-in-california-to-terminate-its-contract-with-flock-safety\">first California city\u003c/a> to cancel its Flock contract in January, after officials confirmed out-of-state agencies had reached its data. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The switch lands in the middle of a regional reckoning. Santa Cruz became the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069705/santa-cruz-the-first-in-california-to-terminate-its-contract-with-flock-safety\">first California city\u003c/a> to cancel its Flock contract in January, after officials confirmed out-of-state agencies had reached its data. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12072077/as-california-cities-grow-wary-of-flock-safety-cameras-mountain-views-shuts-its-off\">Mountain View shut\u003c/a> its cameras off in February following a similar discovery. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12074467/santa-clara-county-leaders-cut-out-flock-safety-in-new-surveillance-policy\">Santa Clara County supervisors\u003c/a> amended their surveillance policy to effectively bar Flock as a vendor in Cupertino, Saratoga and Los Altos Hills. Asked whether that county action forced Stanford’s hand, Rapport said the policy does not apply to the campus.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12072077/as-california-cities-grow-wary-of-flock-safety-cameras-mountain-views-shuts-its-off\">Mountain View shut\u003c/a> its cameras off in February following a similar discovery. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12074467/santa-clara-county-leaders-cut-out-flock-safety-in-new-surveillance-policy\">Santa Clara County supervisors\u003c/a> amended their surveillance policy to effectively bar Flock as a vendor in Cupertino, Saratoga and Los Altos Hills. Asked whether that county action forced Stanford’s hand, Rapport said the policy does not apply to the campus.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Flock said the departures are outpaced by new business. So far this year, the company said, new city partnerships have exceeded nonrenewals by roughly seven to one.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Flock said the departures are outpaced by new business. So far this year, the company said, new city partnerships have exceeded nonrenewals by roughly seven to one.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A man with a fluorescent yellow coat holds a black machine.\" class=\"wp-image-11984097\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A Flock Safety worker holds up a new automated license plate reader that was being installed in East San José on April 23, 2024.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A man with a fluorescent yellow coat holds a black machine.\" class=\"wp-image-11984097\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A Flock Safety worker holds up a new automated license plate reader that was being installed in East San José on April 23, 2024.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>San José, however, decided to keep its 474 Flock cameras in March but \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12075999/san-jose-is-the-latest-bay-area-city-to-restrict-flock-license-plate-cameras\">cut default data retention \u003c/a>from a year to 30 days and barred cameras near reproductive health clinics and places of worship. The city is currently facing a lawsuit from advocates \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12080233/san-jose-residents-sue-city-saying-flock-safety-cameras-allow-mass-surveillance\">who want to end the contract outright\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>San José, however, decided to keep its 474 Flock cameras in March but \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12075999/san-jose-is-the-latest-bay-area-city-to-restrict-flock-license-plate-cameras\">cut default data retention \u003c/a>from a year to 30 days and barred cameras near reproductive health clinics and places of worship. The city is currently facing a lawsuit from advocates \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12080233/san-jose-residents-sue-city-saying-flock-safety-cameras-allow-mass-surveillance\">who want to end the contract outright\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Nearby Palo Alto’s contract with Flock runs through December 2029, and its 30 cameras are still operating.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Meghan Horrigan-Taylor, a city spokesperson, said the city is negotiating with Flock over contract language meant to tighten the company’s obligation to secure data, and the department remains open to other vendors. The City Council will take up an independent audit of the program on Aug. 24.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Meghan Horrigan-Taylor, a city spokesperson, said the city is negotiating with Flock over contract language meant to tighten the company’s obligation to secure data, and the department remains open to other vendors. The City Council will take up an independent audit of the program on Aug. 24.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Palo Alto has received no federal request for license plate data this year, she said, and shares data only through agency agreements, including one with Stanford’s police.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A\u003ca href=\"https://sanmateo.courts.ca.gov/system/files/grand-jury/auto-license-plate-readers-report.pdf\"> San Mateo County Civil Grand Jury report\u003c/a> released Aug. 3 found that at least 12 of the county’s 18 police agencies were sharing license plate data with private university security forces, naming Stanford and the University of the Pacific. The jury said none had established that a private university’s security department meets the legal definition of a public agency, the only kind of entity state law permits them to share with, and recommended they obtain a written legal determination or end the sharing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "The university joins a growing list of Bay Area jurisdictions rethinking the reach of data collection. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Stanford University’s license plate cameras have been covered up and switched off since late July, when the university quietly ended its contract with \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/flock-safety\">Flock Safety\u003c/a> and signed with a different vendor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The replacement, a system called Genetec Cloudrunner, is scheduled to be installed by early September, along with new solar hardware, said Luisa Rapport, a Stanford spokesperson. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The change was influenced by the desire to balance the privacy of our community with access by Stanford’s Department of Public Safety (DPS) to an important tool that supports the safety of our campus,” Rapport said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/GETTYIMAGES-2265184865-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12076122\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/GETTYIMAGES-2265184865-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/GETTYIMAGES-2265184865-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/GETTYIMAGES-2265184865-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A Flock Safety license plate recognition camera is seen near the intersection of Marine Street and Arapahoe Avenue in Boulder on March 5, 2026. (Matthew Jonas/MediaNews Group/Boulder Daily Camera via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Patrick Dunkley, Stanford’s vice provost for institutional equity, access and community, said in the \u003ca href=\"https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2026/08/new-license-plate-camera-company?mkt_tok=NjYwLVRKQy05ODQAAAGja9aYyq4G3yMJgV-8RVQrooM0DvbjAjxjwVHKSVzF9JN-EbTLdaSrjr0bHQtEK4Cmtxp5c672VZp20DdRyqNRzzgFFy9k23QupnBt6vo\">university’s announcement\u003c/a> that unlike Flock, the new system “is designed for use within a single institution.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090103/get-the-flock-out-the-heated-debate-over-license-plate-readers\">Flock’s cameras\u003c/a> photograph every passing vehicle and build what the company calls a vehicle fingerprint, logging the plate along with the make, model and details like bumper stickers or dents. Those records feed a shared national database that other agencies on Flock’s network can search. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Stanford said its own data never traveled that way, but Rapport acknowledged the capability existed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Flock is built as a shared network, she said, “even if that’s not how we chose to use it,” while the new system does not have third-party access built into its architecture.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Flock disputed that framing. A company spokesperson said customers control their own sharing settings, that those relationships are opt-in, and that an agency can change or revoke them at any time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The spokesperson said Flock has since added California-specific safeguards, disabling its National Lookup feature for California agencies, blocking out-of-state discoverability and preventing new out-of-state or federal sharing arrangements. California agencies cannot use the platform to share data outside the state or with federal authorities, the company said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Flock declined to say when Stanford’s service ended or whether the university paid anything to get out of the contract, saying it does not discuss specifics of customer accounts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Under Genetec, still images from cameras installed at campus entrances will sit in a cloud server for under an hour before moving to a server Stanford controls, where the university said it will keep them for 30 days.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Rapport said cameras were not installed on university property beyond the main campus.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A \u003ca href=\"https://police.stanford.edu/pdf/Flock%20Annual%20Report%202024-25.pdf\">university report\u003c/a> covering September 2024 through August 2025 logged 1,742 individual searches in the Flock system across 129 investigations by 20 employees, used in property crime, violent crime, and stalking cases, as well as welfare checks and missing person searches. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251210-STANFORDFILE00607_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12067141\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251210-STANFORDFILE00607_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251210-STANFORDFILE00607_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251210-STANFORDFILE00607_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Hoover Tower at Stanford University in Palo Alto on Dec. 10, 2025. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The report notes no formal complaints and states that no data was given to anyone outside the university. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>DPS Chief Laura Wilson has called the cameras an important investigative tool, and the university credits them with helping arrest two serial thieves on campus.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Flock said it respects Stanford’s decision to evaluate the technology against its own policies and community priorities, but framed the loss as a setback. “When a tool that is actively helping solve violent crimes is removed, public safety moves backward,” the spokesperson said, adding that cases take longer to solve and victims wait longer for justice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The switch lands in the middle of a regional reckoning. Santa Cruz became the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069705/santa-cruz-the-first-in-california-to-terminate-its-contract-with-flock-safety\">first California city\u003c/a> to cancel its Flock contract in January, after officials confirmed out-of-state agencies had reached its data. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12072077/as-california-cities-grow-wary-of-flock-safety-cameras-mountain-views-shuts-its-off\">Mountain View shut\u003c/a> its cameras off in February following a similar discovery. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12074467/santa-clara-county-leaders-cut-out-flock-safety-in-new-surveillance-policy\">Santa Clara County supervisors\u003c/a> amended their surveillance policy to effectively bar Flock as a vendor in Cupertino, Saratoga and Los Altos Hills. Asked whether that county action forced Stanford’s hand, Rapport said the policy does not apply to the campus.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Flock said the departures are outpaced by new business. So far this year, the company said, new city partnerships have exceeded nonrenewals by roughly seven to one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A man with a fluorescent yellow coat holds a black machine.\" class=\"wp-image-11984097\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/SAN-JOSE-LICENSE-PLATE-READERS-11-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A Flock Safety worker holds up a new automated license plate reader that was being installed in East San José on April 23, 2024. (Joseph Geha/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>San José, however, decided to keep its 474 Flock cameras in March but \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12075999/san-jose-is-the-latest-bay-area-city-to-restrict-flock-license-plate-cameras\">cut default data retention \u003c/a>from a year to 30 days and barred cameras near reproductive health clinics and places of worship. The city is currently facing a lawsuit from advocates \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12080233/san-jose-residents-sue-city-saying-flock-safety-cameras-allow-mass-surveillance\">who want to end the contract outright\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Nearby Palo Alto’s contract with Flock runs through December 2029, and its 30 cameras are still operating.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Meghan Horrigan-Taylor, a city spokesperson, said the city is negotiating with Flock over contract language meant to tighten the company’s obligation to secure data, and the department remains open to other vendors. The City Council will take up an independent audit of the program on Aug. 24.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Palo Alto has received no federal request for license plate data this year, she said, and shares data only through agency agreements, including one with Stanford’s police.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A\u003ca href=\"https://sanmateo.courts.ca.gov/system/files/grand-jury/auto-license-plate-readers-report.pdf\"> San Mateo County Civil Grand Jury report\u003c/a> released Aug. 3 found that at least 12 of the county’s 18 police agencies were sharing license plate data with private university security forces, naming Stanford and the University of the Pacific. The jury said none had established that a private university’s security department meets the legal definition of a public agency, the only kind of entity state law permits them to share with, and recommended they obtain a written legal determination or end the sharing.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "im-ready-for-kindergarten-san-franciscos-mission-bay-gets-first-public-school-in-20-years",
"title": "‘I’m Ready for Kindergarten’: San Francisco’s Mission Bay Gets First Public School in 20 Years",
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"headTitle": "‘I’m Ready for Kindergarten’: San Francisco’s Mission Bay Gets First Public School in 20 Years | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco’s Mission Bay\u003c/a> on Thursday morning celebrated the grand opening of the neighborhood’s first public school campus, more than a quarter century in the making.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Mission Bay School, the district’s first new school in twenty years, will welcome its inaugural students, from pre-kindergarten to kindergarten, on Aug. 17.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The campus will eventually serve transitional kindergarten through fifth grade students, plus pre-kindergarteners in a connected early education program and older Mission Bay residents who are part of SFUSD’s Mission Bay Learning Hub. SFUSD has estimated that the school will be fully enrolled by 2032.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This building is fulfilling a promise that we made to our communities,” San Francisco Unified School District Superintendent Maria Su said during a star-studded ribbon-cutting ceremony on Thursday, featuring appearances from Mayor Daniel Lurie to Giants’ mascot Lucille. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-23-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094198\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-23-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-23-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-23-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Dr. Maria Su, SFUSD Superintendent, speaks at the opening ceremony of Mission Bay Elementary School in San Francisco on Aug. 6, 2026. The Mission Bay neighborhood has nearly doubled in population size in the last 15 years. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“When we said, ‘As we build Mission Bay, we were going to make sure that there was a public school that was going to serve our families that were going to move in,’” Su said. “Here is a realization of that dream.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The modern, four-story building, funded by San Francisco’s 2016 school bond, features bright, airy hallways, colorful classrooms and breakout spaces and a well-stocked library, which overlooks a hard-top school yard. According to district documents, SFUSD \u003ca href=\"https://go.boarddocs.com/ca/sfusd/Board.nsf/files/CF9MNE5AE227/%24file/20220615%20Mission%20Bay%20School.pdf\">contracted\u003c/a> with McCarthy Building Company to complete the project for a sum of $95,390,000.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Surrounding the campus is burgeoning Mission Bay, which has nearly doubled in population size in the last 15 years. In that time, thousands of housing units have gone up in the neighborhood, which is near both Oracle Park and Chase Center. More than a dozen restaurants, coffee shops and community spaces have opened surrounding the venues and new builds. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What’s been missing, parents and city officials said Thursday, was a neighborhood school. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While SFUSD continues to see enrollment declines and is considering campus consolidations in the next few years, Mission Bay families have often had to travel to Daniel Webster Elementary, about a mile and a half away in Potrero Hill, or Bessie Carmichael Elementary in South of Market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“When my daughter Mary was less than a year old, I would bring her to the building and grounds meetings for the school board and give public comment about how there really are families in Mission Bay and these kids are going to need a school,” resident Sarah Bertram said. “Mary’s now 13, but I’m thrilled that there are families here who are getting ready to send their kids to this school.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Supervisor Matt Dorsey, who represents the neighborhood, said the opening was a “giant leap forward” for Mission Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“[It’s] becoming the kind of complete, thriving, family-friendly neighborhood that every San Franciscan deserves,” Dorsey said. “A great neighborhood needs more than just housing, retail and offices. It also needs neighbors who know each other, and it needs a school where kids can walk to class and grow up together.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-17-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094194\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-17-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-17-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-17-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Children play on the playground during the opening ceremony of Mission Bay Elementary School in San Francisco on Aug. 6, 2026. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For many families, that proximity is one of the biggest perks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Lauren Loui, whose daughter Maggie is starting kindergarten, said the family takes Muni’s N Judah line three stops to get to school.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We come here all the time. She knows it,” Loui said during Thursday’s grand opening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Transitional Kindergarten teacher Tonecia Harvey lives even closer — a 12-minute walk, or four-minute bike ride.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I can see my house from my classroom,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-32-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094203\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-32-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-32-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-32-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Tonecia Harvey, TK teacher, poses for a photo in her classroom at Mission Bay Elementary School in San Francisco on Aug. 6, 2026. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Parents were also excited about the campus’s facilities, built from the ground up over the last four years. The land, which was transferred from UC San Francisco to SFUSD in 2022, has been set aside for a school much longer, since 1988.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The building, the classrooms, everything’s so well thought out,” said mom Mythili Iyengar, whose son Seelan will enter kindergarten in just under two weeks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Early education classrooms on the first and second floors include low tables and a mini play kitchen, while the fourth floor, where the Learning Hub will now be housed, features multiple rooms with group work stations, whiteboards and mounted television screens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Seelan’s favorite part, he said, is his classroom, which he said even has hot glue guns.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the first day of school, he’s most excited to hold up a sign he made: “It says ‘I’m ready for kindergarten’ on it.”\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The campus will eventually serve transitional kindergarten through fifth grade students, plus pre-kindergarteners in a connected early education program and older Mission Bay residents who are part of SFUSD’s Mission Bay Learning Hub. SFUSD has estimated that the school will be fully enrolled by 2032.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The modern, four-story building, funded by San Francisco’s 2016 school bond, features bright, airy hallways, colorful classrooms and breakout spaces and a well-stocked library, which overlooks a hard-top school yard. According to district documents, SFUSD \u003ca href=\"https://go.boarddocs.com/ca/sfusd/Board.nsf/files/CF9MNE5AE227/$file/20220615%20Mission%20Bay%20School.pdf\">contracted\u003c/a> with McCarthy Building Company to complete the project for a sum of $95,390,000.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Surrounding the campus is burgeoning Mission Bay, which has nearly doubled in population size in the last 15 years. In that time, thousands of housing units have gone up in the neighborhood, which is near both Oracle Park and Chase Center. More than a dozen restaurants, coffee shops and community spaces have opened surrounding the venues and new builds. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“When my daughter Mary was less than a year old, I would bring her to the building and grounds meetings for the school board and give public comment about how there really are families in Mission Bay and these kids are going to need a school,” resident Sarah Bertram said. “Mary’s now 13, but I’m thrilled that there are families here who are getting ready to send their kids to this school.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco’s Mission Bay\u003c/a> on Thursday morning celebrated the grand opening of the neighborhood’s first public school campus, more than a quarter century in the making.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Mission Bay School, the district’s first new school in twenty years, will welcome its inaugural students, from pre-kindergarten to kindergarten, on Aug. 17.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The campus will eventually serve transitional kindergarten through fifth grade students, plus pre-kindergarteners in a connected early education program and older Mission Bay residents who are part of SFUSD’s Mission Bay Learning Hub. SFUSD has estimated that the school will be fully enrolled by 2032.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This building is fulfilling a promise that we made to our communities,” San Francisco Unified School District Superintendent Maria Su said during a star-studded ribbon-cutting ceremony on Thursday, featuring appearances from Mayor Daniel Lurie to Giants’ mascot Lucille. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-23-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094198\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-23-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-23-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-23-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Dr. Maria Su, SFUSD Superintendent, speaks at the opening ceremony of Mission Bay Elementary School in San Francisco on Aug. 6, 2026. The Mission Bay neighborhood has nearly doubled in population size in the last 15 years. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“When we said, ‘As we build Mission Bay, we were going to make sure that there was a public school that was going to serve our families that were going to move in,’” Su said. “Here is a realization of that dream.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The modern, four-story building, funded by San Francisco’s 2016 school bond, features bright, airy hallways, colorful classrooms and breakout spaces and a well-stocked library, which overlooks a hard-top school yard. According to district documents, SFUSD \u003ca href=\"https://go.boarddocs.com/ca/sfusd/Board.nsf/files/CF9MNE5AE227/%24file/20220615%20Mission%20Bay%20School.pdf\">contracted\u003c/a> with McCarthy Building Company to complete the project for a sum of $95,390,000.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Surrounding the campus is burgeoning Mission Bay, which has nearly doubled in population size in the last 15 years. In that time, thousands of housing units have gone up in the neighborhood, which is near both Oracle Park and Chase Center. More than a dozen restaurants, coffee shops and community spaces have opened surrounding the venues and new builds. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What’s been missing, parents and city officials said Thursday, was a neighborhood school. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While SFUSD continues to see enrollment declines and is considering campus consolidations in the next few years, Mission Bay families have often had to travel to Daniel Webster Elementary, about a mile and a half away in Potrero Hill, or Bessie Carmichael Elementary in South of Market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“When my daughter Mary was less than a year old, I would bring her to the building and grounds meetings for the school board and give public comment about how there really are families in Mission Bay and these kids are going to need a school,” resident Sarah Bertram said. “Mary’s now 13, but I’m thrilled that there are families here who are getting ready to send their kids to this school.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Supervisor Matt Dorsey, who represents the neighborhood, said the opening was a “giant leap forward” for Mission Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“[It’s] becoming the kind of complete, thriving, family-friendly neighborhood that every San Franciscan deserves,” Dorsey said. “A great neighborhood needs more than just housing, retail and offices. It also needs neighbors who know each other, and it needs a school where kids can walk to class and grow up together.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-17-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094194\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-17-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-17-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-17-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Children play on the playground during the opening ceremony of Mission Bay Elementary School in San Francisco on Aug. 6, 2026. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For many families, that proximity is one of the biggest perks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Lauren Loui, whose daughter Maggie is starting kindergarten, said the family takes Muni’s N Judah line three stops to get to school.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We come here all the time. She knows it,” Loui said during Thursday’s grand opening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Transitional Kindergarten teacher Tonecia Harvey lives even closer — a 12-minute walk, or four-minute bike ride.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I can see my house from my classroom,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-32-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094203\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-32-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-32-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/20260806_SFUSDNEWSCHOOL_GC-32-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Tonecia Harvey, TK teacher, poses for a photo in her classroom at Mission Bay Elementary School in San Francisco on Aug. 6, 2026. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Parents were also excited about the campus’s facilities, built from the ground up over the last four years. The land, which was transferred from UC San Francisco to SFUSD in 2022, has been set aside for a school much longer, since 1988.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The building, the classrooms, everything’s so well thought out,” said mom Mythili Iyengar, whose son Seelan will enter kindergarten in just under two weeks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Early education classrooms on the first and second floors include low tables and a mini play kitchen, while the fourth floor, where the Learning Hub will now be housed, features multiple rooms with group work stations, whiteboards and mounted television screens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Seelan’s favorite part, he said, is his classroom, which he said even has hot glue guns.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the first day of school, he’s most excited to hold up a sign he made: “It says ‘I’m ready for kindergarten’ on it.”\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "kids-are-actually-eating-the-food-state-expands-lunch-program-that-pairs-schools-with-farms",
"title": "‘Kids Are Actually Eating the Food’: State Expands Lunch Program That Pairs Schools With Farms",
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"headTitle": "‘Kids Are Actually Eating the Food’: State Expands Lunch Program That Pairs Schools With Farms | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was originally published by \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/\">CalMatters\u003c/a>. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/subscribe-to-calmatters/\">Sign up\u003c/a> for their newsletters.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In school lunchrooms around Lake Tahoe, students line up for a red, hairy fruit called a rambutan. On pozole day, they shout, “We want more!” And when the salad bar runs dry, they ask the staff to refill it – over and over.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This brings joy to the cafeteria crew, but Gage Gautheier recently bestowed the highest possible praise from a middle-schooler: “I have literally never heard anyone complain about the food.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Tahoe-Truckee Unified is among 500 California school districts that get their food through the state’s Farm to School program, which pairs local farmers, ranchers and other food producers with school districts to provide fresh meals to students. The program has been \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/education/k-12-education/2023/08/school-lunches/\">so successful\u003c/a> since it started in 2021 that this month the state \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb172\">expanded it\u003c/a> and made it a permanent part of the Department of Food and Agriculture.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I’m so relieved the state decided to step it up and make this program permanent,” said Christina Lawson, director of nutrition services at Western Placer Unified in Lincoln, a Sacramento suburb. “That’s been my abiding fear – that our funding would dry up after all this work we’ve done.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Farm to School program is part of a broader state effort to improve school meals, which for decades consisted mostly of soggy hot dogs and frozen pizzas. Through the program, schools get grant money to obtain fresh, local food; send students on field trips to farms; and send cafeteria workers to culinary academies so they can learn to cook things like braised short ribs and roasted root vegetables.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-1 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12093654\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch2.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093654\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch2-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">First: The Spork Food Hub warehouse, surrounded by an orchard, in Davis on July 28, 2026. (Anna Hoch-Kenney/CalMatters)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12093655\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch3.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093655\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch3.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch3-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch3-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Last: Jacob Weiss, the general manager of Spork Food Hub in Davis, messages directly with a local farmer about ripening crops on July 28, 2026. (Anna Hoch-Kenney/CalMatters)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch4.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093656\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch4.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch4-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch4-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Warehouse Supervisor Lucas Morace removes a pallet of strawberries from a walk-in refrigerator to prepare for delivery at the Spork Food Hub warehouse in Davis on July 28, 2026. (Anna Hoch-Kenney/CalMatters)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>Another grant program helps schools upgrade their kitchens. And during the pandemic, the state started offering universal school meals to all students. In all, the state has invested well over $1 billion in healthy school meals since 2021.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Our goal is not only to ensure every California child has access to nutritious, locally grown, regenerative organic meals that fuel their full potential, but to continue setting the national standard for what school food can and should be,” said First Partner Jennifer Siebel Newsom, a longtime champion of the state’s overhaul of school meals. “When we invest in healthy, thriving kids, everyone benefits.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One of the most helpful parts of the Farm to School Program, according to school nutrition directors, is that it pays for food hubs to act as intermediaries between schools and farms. The food hubs place orders with farmers, deliver produce to schools and handle much of the logistical paperwork – tasks that can be overwhelming for harried cafeteria workers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Spork is a food hub based in Davis that works with more than 100 small farms and 40 school districts from Crescent City to Los Angeles Unified. Crews deliver up to 120 tons – or 720 truckloads – of produce a week to school kitchens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Deliveries include items like vine-ripened cherry tomatoes, purple daikon radishes, Hakurei turnips, and something called a painted serpent cucumber – a snake-like, striped vegetable with a thin skin and a sweet, mild flavor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“What we’re trying to do is change kids’ eating habits at a young age by showing them how great fruits and vegetables can be,” said Jacob Weiss, general manager of Spork. “People think kids don’t like vegetables, but we found that if you give them fresh, delicious vegetables, they love it.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">A boost to local farms \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Another goal of Farm to School is to give a boost to small farmers, who often struggle with fluctuating markets and customers’ fickle tastes. A farmer might plant a field of a specialty item like heirloom tomatoes, for example, but only sell half of them. Contracting with schools can provide a stable, predictable market, allowing farmers to plan crops more efficiently. Overall, the program works with nearly 600 small farmers in California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Patrick Bollinger co-owns Foothill Roots Farm in Meadow Vista in Placer County. On 20 rolling acres in the Sierra foothills, he and his crew grow 50 different crops, much of it for the Tahoe Food Hub, which distributes to Tahoe-Truckee Unified and other sources.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If we get an order for watermelon radishes, I know we’ll be able to sell them before we even get the seeds in the ground,” Bollinger said. “And when we sell to the food hub, we don’t have to do the deliveries or marketing. … It’s been incredibly advantageous for us.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-2 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12093658\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch5.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093658\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch5.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch5-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch5-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">First: Daniela Castillo, manager at Fiery Ginger Farm in West Sacramento, picks sungold tomatoes on July 28, 2026. Fiery Ginger Farm is one of over 100 small local farms that partner with Spork Food Hub. (Anna Hoch-Kenney/CalMatters)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12093659\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch6.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093659\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch6.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch6-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch6-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Last: A cart of ripe tomatoes stays cool in a walk-in refrigerator at the Spork Food Hub warehouse in Davis on July 28, 2026. (Anna Hoch-Kenney/CalMatters)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The state \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdfa.ca.gov/pdfs/2026_CDFA_F2S_Impact.pdf\">estimates\u003c/a> that every dollar spent through Farm to School results in $2.10 in local economic growth. Bollinger said he’s saved enough money to retain more employees year-round and lease an additional 8 acres since he started working with the Farm to School program. It’s also allowed him to plan more strategically, growing more salad greens, carrots and winter squash while still saving room for things like beets, herbs and chard.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At Tahoe-Truckee Unified, Kat Soltanmorad has never been happier in her 25 years as a school nutrition worker. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We now have access to the richness of California agriculture,” said Soltanmorad, director of the district’s food services department. “It’s good for the economy, it’s good for the environment, it’s good for student wellness.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She and her crew come up with menu items like barbecue ribs with whole grain garlic bread, organic mashed potatoes and kale caesar salad; mango lassis; and potstickers with oven-baked pancit and cilantro lime brown rice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They taste-test new menu items with students and offer a wide variety of options at the salad bar so everyone can find something they like.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I have become a radish expert,” Soltanmorad said, noting that the district offers radish varieties such as baby French breakfast and Easter egg from small farms near her district. “We dress them up with Tajin and lime juice or cilantro, and the students love it.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Gauthier, who just finished eighth grade, transferred to Tahoe-Truckee two years ago from Reno, where he said the school food was unimpressive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“In Reno they’d give us little sandwiches in plastic bags. Not cooked or anything, just a cold sandwich,” he said. “Here, they actually make an effort. They try.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Back in Lincoln, Lawson choked up when describing the changes to her district’s lunch program thanks to Farm to School. The 8,200-student district now offers things like homemade muffins made from locally milled flour, low-sugar Greek yogurt from Sierra Nevada Creamery, local homemade tortillas and pupusas, and fresh produce ranging from kumquats to canary melons to finger limes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The staff, too, has benefitted. Because there’s more work for them, they’re getting more hours and bigger paychecks, plus greater job satisfaction, she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s the best thing that’s ever happened to school food service,” Lawson said. “The staff is happier, the farmers are benefiting. And the kids are actually eating the food.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article was \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/education/k-12-education/2026/08/school-lunch-california/\">originally published on CalMatters\u003c/a> and was republished under the \u003ca href=\"https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/\">Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives\u003c/a> license.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In school lunchrooms around Lake Tahoe, students line up for a red, hairy fruit called a rambutan. On pozole day, they shout, “We want more!” And when the salad bar runs dry, they ask the staff to refill it – over and over.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In school lunchrooms around Lake Tahoe, students line up for a red, hairy fruit called a rambutan. On pozole day, they shout, “We want more!” And when the salad bar runs dry, they ask the staff to refill it – over and over.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Tahoe-Truckee Unified is among 500 California school districts that get their food through the state’s Farm to School program, which pairs local farmers, ranchers and other food producers with school districts to provide fresh meals to students. The program has been \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/education/k-12-education/2023/08/school-lunches/\">so successful\u003c/a> since it started in 2021 that this month the state \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb172\">expanded it\u003c/a> and made it a permanent part of the Department of Food and Agriculture.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Tahoe-Truckee Unified is among 500 California school districts that get their food through the state’s Farm to School program, which pairs local farmers, ranchers and other food producers with school districts to provide fresh meals to students. The program has been \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/education/k-12-education/2023/08/school-lunches/\">so successful\u003c/a> since it started in 2021 that this month the state \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb172\">expanded it\u003c/a> and made it a permanent part of the Department of Food and Agriculture.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I’m so relieved the state decided to step it up and make this program permanent,” said Christina Lawson, director of nutrition services at Western Placer Unified in Lincoln, a Sacramento suburb. “That’s been my abiding fear – that our funding would dry up after all this work we’ve done.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I’m so relieved the state decided to step it up and make this program permanent,” said Christina Lawson, director of nutrition services at Western Placer Unified in Lincoln, a Sacramento suburb. “That’s been my abiding fear – that our funding would dry up after all this work we’ve done.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Farm to School program is part of a broader state effort to improve school meals, which for decades consisted mostly of soggy hot dogs and frozen pizzas. Through the program, schools get grant money to obtain fresh, local food; send students on field trips to farms; and send cafeteria workers to culinary academies so they can learn to cook things like braised short ribs and roasted root vegetables.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Another grant program helps schools upgrade their kitchens. And during the pandemic, the state started offering universal school meals to all students. In all, the state has invested well over $1 billion in healthy school meals since 2021.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Our goal is not only to ensure every California child has access to nutritious, locally grown, regenerative organic meals that fuel their full potential, but to continue setting the national standard for what school food can and should be,” said First Partner Jennifer Siebel Newsom, a longtime champion of the state’s overhaul of school meals. “When we invest in healthy, thriving kids, everyone benefits.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Our goal is not only to ensure every California child has access to nutritious, locally grown, regenerative organic meals that fuel their full potential, but to continue setting the national standard for what school food can and should be,” said First Partner Jennifer Siebel Newsom, a longtime champion of the state’s overhaul of school meals. “When we invest in healthy, thriving kids, everyone benefits.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>One of the most helpful parts of the Farm to School Program, according to school nutrition directors, is that it pays for food hubs to act as intermediaries between schools and farms. The food hubs place orders with farmers, deliver produce to schools and handle much of the logistical paperwork – tasks that can be overwhelming for harried cafeteria workers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>One of the most helpful parts of the Farm to School Program, according to school nutrition directors, is that it pays for food hubs to act as intermediaries between schools and farms. The food hubs place orders with farmers, deliver produce to schools and handle much of the logistical paperwork – tasks that can be overwhelming for harried cafeteria workers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Spork is a food hub based in Davis that works with more than 100 small farms and 40 school districts from Crescent City to Los Angeles Unified. Crews deliver up to 120 tons – or 720 truckloads – of produce a week to school kitchens.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Spork is a food hub based in Davis that works with more than 100 small farms and 40 school districts from Crescent City to Los Angeles Unified. Crews deliver up to 120 tons – or 720 truckloads – of produce a week to school kitchens.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Deliveries include items like vine-ripened cherry tomatoes, purple daikon radishes, Hakurei turnips, and something called a painted serpent cucumber – a snake-like, striped vegetable with a thin skin and a sweet, mild flavor.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“What we’re trying to do is change kids’ eating habits at a young age by showing them how great fruits and vegetables can be,” said Jacob Weiss, general manager of Spork. “People think kids don’t like vegetables, but we found that if you give them fresh, delicious vegetables, they love it.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Another goal of Farm to School is to give a boost to small farmers, who often struggle with fluctuating markets and customers’ fickle tastes. A farmer might plant a field of a specialty item like heirloom tomatoes, for example, but only sell half of them. Contracting with schools can provide a stable, predictable market, allowing farmers to plan crops more efficiently. Overall, the program works with nearly 600 small farmers in California.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Another goal of Farm to School is to give a boost to small farmers, who often struggle with fluctuating markets and customers’ fickle tastes. A farmer might plant a field of a specialty item like heirloom tomatoes, for example, but only sell half of them. Contracting with schools can provide a stable, predictable market, allowing farmers to plan crops more efficiently. Overall, the program works with nearly 600 small farmers in California.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Patrick Bollinger co-owns Foothill Roots Farm in Meadow Vista in Placer County. On 20 rolling acres in the Sierra foothills, he and his crew grow 50 different crops, much of it for the Tahoe Food Hub, which distributes to Tahoe-Truckee Unified and other sources.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“If we get an order for watermelon radishes, I know we’ll be able to sell them before we even get the seeds in the ground,” Bollinger said. “And when we sell to the food hub, we don’t have to do the deliveries or marketing. … It’s been incredibly advantageous for us.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“If we get an order for watermelon radishes, I know we’ll be able to sell them before we even get the seeds in the ground,” Bollinger said. “And when we sell to the food hub, we don’t have to do the deliveries or marketing. … It’s been incredibly advantageous for us.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The state \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdfa.ca.gov/pdfs/2026_CDFA_F2S_Impact.pdf\">estimates\u003c/a> that every dollar spent through Farm to School results in $2.10 in local economic growth. Bollinger said he’s saved enough money to retain more employees year-round and lease an additional 8 acres since he started working with the Farm to School program. It’s also allowed him to plan more strategically, growing more salad greens, carrots and winter squash while still saving room for things like beets, herbs and chard.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At Tahoe-Truckee Unified, Kat Soltanmorad has never been happier in her 25 years as a school nutrition worker. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We now have access to the richness of California agriculture,” said Soltanmorad, director of the district’s food services department. “It’s good for the economy, it’s good for the environment, it’s good for student wellness.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>She and her crew come up with menu items like barbecue ribs with whole grain garlic bread, organic mashed potatoes and kale caesar salad; mango lassis; and potstickers with oven-baked pancit and cilantro lime brown rice.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>She and her crew come up with menu items like barbecue ribs with whole grain garlic bread, organic mashed potatoes and kale caesar salad; mango lassis; and potstickers with oven-baked pancit and cilantro lime brown rice.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They taste-test new menu items with students and offer a wide variety of options at the salad bar so everyone can find something they like.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I have become a radish expert,” Soltanmorad said, noting that the district offers radish varieties such as baby French breakfast and Easter egg from small farms near her district. “We dress them up with Tajin and lime juice or cilantro, and the students love it.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Gauthier, who just finished eighth grade, transferred to Tahoe-Truckee two years ago from Reno, where he said the school food was unimpressive.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“In Reno they’d give us little sandwiches in plastic bags. Not cooked or anything, just a cold sandwich,” he said. “Here, they actually make an effort. They try.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Back in Lincoln, Lawson choked up when describing the changes to her district’s lunch program thanks to Farm to School. The 8,200-student district now offers things like homemade muffins made from locally milled flour, low-sugar Greek yogurt from Sierra Nevada Creamery, local homemade tortillas and pupusas, and fresh produce ranging from kumquats to canary melons to finger limes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The staff, too, has benefitted. Because there’s more work for them, they’re getting more hours and bigger paychecks, plus greater job satisfaction, she said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It’s the best thing that’s ever happened to school food service,” Lawson said. “The staff is happier, the farmers are benefiting. And the kids are actually eating the food.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Through the Farm to School program, schools get grant money to obtain fresh, local food, send students on field trips to farms and send cafeteria workers to culinary academies.",
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"title": "‘Kids Are Actually Eating the Food’: State Expands Lunch Program That Pairs Schools With Farms | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was originally published by \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/\">CalMatters\u003c/a>. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/subscribe-to-calmatters/\">Sign up\u003c/a> for their newsletters.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In school lunchrooms around Lake Tahoe, students line up for a red, hairy fruit called a rambutan. On pozole day, they shout, “We want more!” And when the salad bar runs dry, they ask the staff to refill it – over and over.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This brings joy to the cafeteria crew, but Gage Gautheier recently bestowed the highest possible praise from a middle-schooler: “I have literally never heard anyone complain about the food.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Tahoe-Truckee Unified is among 500 California school districts that get their food through the state’s Farm to School program, which pairs local farmers, ranchers and other food producers with school districts to provide fresh meals to students. The program has been \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/education/k-12-education/2023/08/school-lunches/\">so successful\u003c/a> since it started in 2021 that this month the state \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260sb172\">expanded it\u003c/a> and made it a permanent part of the Department of Food and Agriculture.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I’m so relieved the state decided to step it up and make this program permanent,” said Christina Lawson, director of nutrition services at Western Placer Unified in Lincoln, a Sacramento suburb. “That’s been my abiding fear – that our funding would dry up after all this work we’ve done.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Farm to School program is part of a broader state effort to improve school meals, which for decades consisted mostly of soggy hot dogs and frozen pizzas. Through the program, schools get grant money to obtain fresh, local food; send students on field trips to farms; and send cafeteria workers to culinary academies so they can learn to cook things like braised short ribs and roasted root vegetables.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-1 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12093654\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch2.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093654\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch2-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">First: The Spork Food Hub warehouse, surrounded by an orchard, in Davis on July 28, 2026. (Anna Hoch-Kenney/CalMatters)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12093655\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch3.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093655\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch3.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch3-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch3-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Last: Jacob Weiss, the general manager of Spork Food Hub in Davis, messages directly with a local farmer about ripening crops on July 28, 2026. (Anna Hoch-Kenney/CalMatters)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch4.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093656\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch4.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch4-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch4-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Warehouse Supervisor Lucas Morace removes a pallet of strawberries from a walk-in refrigerator to prepare for delivery at the Spork Food Hub warehouse in Davis on July 28, 2026. (Anna Hoch-Kenney/CalMatters)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>Another grant program helps schools upgrade their kitchens. And during the pandemic, the state started offering universal school meals to all students. In all, the state has invested well over $1 billion in healthy school meals since 2021.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Our goal is not only to ensure every California child has access to nutritious, locally grown, regenerative organic meals that fuel their full potential, but to continue setting the national standard for what school food can and should be,” said First Partner Jennifer Siebel Newsom, a longtime champion of the state’s overhaul of school meals. “When we invest in healthy, thriving kids, everyone benefits.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One of the most helpful parts of the Farm to School Program, according to school nutrition directors, is that it pays for food hubs to act as intermediaries between schools and farms. The food hubs place orders with farmers, deliver produce to schools and handle much of the logistical paperwork – tasks that can be overwhelming for harried cafeteria workers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Spork is a food hub based in Davis that works with more than 100 small farms and 40 school districts from Crescent City to Los Angeles Unified. Crews deliver up to 120 tons – or 720 truckloads – of produce a week to school kitchens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Deliveries include items like vine-ripened cherry tomatoes, purple daikon radishes, Hakurei turnips, and something called a painted serpent cucumber – a snake-like, striped vegetable with a thin skin and a sweet, mild flavor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“What we’re trying to do is change kids’ eating habits at a young age by showing them how great fruits and vegetables can be,” said Jacob Weiss, general manager of Spork. “People think kids don’t like vegetables, but we found that if you give them fresh, delicious vegetables, they love it.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">A boost to local farms \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Another goal of Farm to School is to give a boost to small farmers, who often struggle with fluctuating markets and customers’ fickle tastes. A farmer might plant a field of a specialty item like heirloom tomatoes, for example, but only sell half of them. Contracting with schools can provide a stable, predictable market, allowing farmers to plan crops more efficiently. Overall, the program works with nearly 600 small farmers in California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Patrick Bollinger co-owns Foothill Roots Farm in Meadow Vista in Placer County. On 20 rolling acres in the Sierra foothills, he and his crew grow 50 different crops, much of it for the Tahoe Food Hub, which distributes to Tahoe-Truckee Unified and other sources.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If we get an order for watermelon radishes, I know we’ll be able to sell them before we even get the seeds in the ground,” Bollinger said. “And when we sell to the food hub, we don’t have to do the deliveries or marketing. … It’s been incredibly advantageous for us.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-2 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12093658\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch5.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093658\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch5.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch5-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch5-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">First: Daniela Castillo, manager at Fiery Ginger Farm in West Sacramento, picks sungold tomatoes on July 28, 2026. Fiery Ginger Farm is one of over 100 small local farms that partner with Spork Food Hub. (Anna Hoch-Kenney/CalMatters)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12093659\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch6.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093659\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch6.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch6-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/CMLunch6-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Last: A cart of ripe tomatoes stays cool in a walk-in refrigerator at the Spork Food Hub warehouse in Davis on July 28, 2026. (Anna Hoch-Kenney/CalMatters)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The state \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdfa.ca.gov/pdfs/2026_CDFA_F2S_Impact.pdf\">estimates\u003c/a> that every dollar spent through Farm to School results in $2.10 in local economic growth. Bollinger said he’s saved enough money to retain more employees year-round and lease an additional 8 acres since he started working with the Farm to School program. It’s also allowed him to plan more strategically, growing more salad greens, carrots and winter squash while still saving room for things like beets, herbs and chard.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At Tahoe-Truckee Unified, Kat Soltanmorad has never been happier in her 25 years as a school nutrition worker. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We now have access to the richness of California agriculture,” said Soltanmorad, director of the district’s food services department. “It’s good for the economy, it’s good for the environment, it’s good for student wellness.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She and her crew come up with menu items like barbecue ribs with whole grain garlic bread, organic mashed potatoes and kale caesar salad; mango lassis; and potstickers with oven-baked pancit and cilantro lime brown rice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They taste-test new menu items with students and offer a wide variety of options at the salad bar so everyone can find something they like.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I have become a radish expert,” Soltanmorad said, noting that the district offers radish varieties such as baby French breakfast and Easter egg from small farms near her district. “We dress them up with Tajin and lime juice or cilantro, and the students love it.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Gauthier, who just finished eighth grade, transferred to Tahoe-Truckee two years ago from Reno, where he said the school food was unimpressive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“In Reno they’d give us little sandwiches in plastic bags. Not cooked or anything, just a cold sandwich,” he said. “Here, they actually make an effort. They try.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Back in Lincoln, Lawson choked up when describing the changes to her district’s lunch program thanks to Farm to School. The 8,200-student district now offers things like homemade muffins made from locally milled flour, low-sugar Greek yogurt from Sierra Nevada Creamery, local homemade tortillas and pupusas, and fresh produce ranging from kumquats to canary melons to finger limes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The staff, too, has benefitted. Because there’s more work for them, they’re getting more hours and bigger paychecks, plus greater job satisfaction, she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s the best thing that’s ever happened to school food service,” Lawson said. “The staff is happier, the farmers are benefiting. And the kids are actually eating the food.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article was \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/education/k-12-education/2026/08/school-lunch-california/\">originally published on CalMatters\u003c/a> and was republished under the \u003ca href=\"https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/\">Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives\u003c/a> license.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "a-california-university-is-cutting-ties-with-us-border-patrol-after-student-outcry",
"title": "A California University Is Cutting Ties With US Border Patrol After Student Outcry",
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"headTitle": "A California University Is Cutting Ties With US Border Patrol After Student Outcry | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003c!-- Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/ -->\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was originally published by \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/\">CalMatters\u003c/a>. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/subscribe-to-calmatters/\">Sign up\u003c/a> for their newsletters.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/california\">California\u003c/a> public university cut ties with a federal program that paid for campus police to aid Border Patrol, within weeks of CalMatters revealing the decade-long partnership.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Operation Stonegarden, a grant managed by the Department of Homeland Security, allocates an average of $11 million each year for California law enforcement agencies to work with U.S. Customs and Border Protection and its subagency Border Patrol on border security missions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dozens of police forces throughout the state receive the grant, including campus police at UC San Diego, a recipient since around 2012.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On Feb. 10, a \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/education/2026/02/uc-san-diego-homeland-security-border-patrol/\">CalMatters article\u003c/a> explained how UC San Diego police used the grant to patrol sections of the coastline near campus, which quickly set off an uproar among students who felt it placed undocumented and international students at risk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By Feb. 26, after students emailed complaints and threatened to hold a public rally, student Aryan Dixit said the campus police chief, Lamine Secka, agreed to leave the grant program in a one-on-one meeting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12011934\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12011934\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241031-BORDER-CROSSINGS-ZM-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241031-BORDER-CROSSINGS-ZM-02-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241031-BORDER-CROSSINGS-ZM-02-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241031-BORDER-CROSSINGS-ZM-02-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241031-BORDER-CROSSINGS-ZM-02-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241031-BORDER-CROSSINGS-ZM-02-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241031-BORDER-CROSSINGS-ZM-02-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The heavily fortified U.S.-Mexico border fence ends in the Pacific Ocean between the Playas de Tijuana neighborhood and Border Field State Park in San Diego, Sept. 16, 2024. \u003ccite>(Zoë Meyers for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Melinda Battenberg, a spokesperson at UC San Diego, declined to confirm whether campus police left the grant program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, internal \u003ca href=\"https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZBMvcgRwHqnD-1ywkx0Ta4hOUxDvAYfS/view?usp=sharing\">emails\u003c/a> sent in March from a university vice chancellor, Niraj Dangoria, to Patrick Velasquez, a retired university employee and Chicano education advocacy leader, that were reviewed by CalMatters additionally confirmed that the college intended to cease using the grant and has no plans to reapply in the future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In May, Lt. Michael Gonzales of the San Diego County Sheriff’s Office, which manages Stonegarden-funded operations in the San Diego area, told CalMatters the university will not be involved in future grant operations.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Concern quickly spread\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Daniel Negrete, a fourth-year business economics student at UC San Diego, said he found it “crazy” his campus maintained a working relationship with Border Patrol.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Once the news broke, there was a lot of on-campus concern, he added. Students at a Feb. 18 anti-ICE walkout criticized the university’s relationship with Homeland Security, according to UC San Diego’s student newspaper, \u003ca href=\"https://ucsdguardian.org/2026/02/23/ucsd-students-walk-out-against-ice/#:~:text=Speakers%20at%20the%20walkout%20also%20criticized%20the%20University%E2%80%99s%20collaboration%20with%20immigration%20enforcement.%C2%A0\">The Guardian.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was… shocked that the university was letting this happen,” Negrete said. “There’s no way that at least someone in higher administration wasn’t aware of this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12074482\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12074482\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/GettyImages-2262729717-scaled-e1773182284895.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1413\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">President Donald Trump speaks during a press briefing at the White House on Feb. 20, 2026, in Washington, D.C. \u003ccite>(Chen Mengtong/China News Service/VCG via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>According to a \u003ca href=\"https://www.fema.gov/sites/default/files/documents/fema_gpd_homeland-security-grant-program-nofo_fy2025.pdf#page=22\">2025 grant document\u003c/a>, Operation Stonegarden enhances collaboration between federal and local law enforcement to secure borders. The program also promotes information sharing, including through regular \u003ca href=\"https://oceanside.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=14852095&GUID=4B35AB5F-D1E2-401E-87DD-97E1895C8257#page=5\">meetings\u003c/a> and mandatory reports.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since its 2006 founding, the grant has raised concerns about privacy and adherence to California’s \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180SB54\">sanctuary law.\u003c/a> The Electronic Frontier Foundation, a privacy advocacy group, asked President Donald Trump to end Stonegarden in a 2025 \u003ca href=\"https://www.eff.org/files/2025/01/30/2025_transition_memo.pdf#page=12\">memo,\u003c/a> adding that surveillance technology companies \u003ca href=\"https://www.pelco.com/blog/operation-stonegarden#how-can-you-use-operation-stonegarden-funds\">encourage police to join the program\u003c/a> to get them to buy their products.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Patrick Dobbins, a UC San Diego police sergeant and the university’s designated Stonegarden coordinator, told CalMatters in November 2025 that the university used the grant to pay for officers to work overtime on border patrols. He added that the grant was used to promote health and safety.[aside postID=news_12093093 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260729-SJICERALLY-JG-7_qed.jpg']Every year since \u003ca href=\"https://web.archive.org/web/20200501091247/https://www.fema.gov/media-library-data/1583442273016-07cbcf9445f9fda3cdc5bf8439ec72c9/FY_2020_HSGP_NOFO_FINAL_508ML4.pdf\">2020,\u003c/a> Homeland Security requested grant recipients to prioritize \u003ca href=\"https://www.ice.gov/identify-and-arrest/287g\">training officers\u003c/a> as immigration agents, though that is illegal in California under the sanctuary law. In \u003ca href=\"https://www.fema.gov/grants/preparedness/homeland-security/fy-25-nofo#:~:text=F.%20OPSG,SHSP%20and%20UASI.\">2025\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.fema.gov/sites/default/files/documents/fema_gpd_hsgp-nofo-fy2026.pdf#page=24\">2026,\u003c/a> became the grant’s overall emphasis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dangoria wrote in a March email to Velasquez that the university’s Stonegarden funds are used “for operations focused on drug and human trafficking and not immigration enforcement.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, Negrete said he was bothered by a 2025 Office of Inspector General audit that found \u003ca href=\"https://www.oig.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/assets/2025-06/OIG-25-26-Jun25.pdf#page=8\">only 15%\u003c/a> of Stonegarden funds are used for drug enforcement and that, according to Homeland Security, drug interdiction is “incidental” to Stonegarden operations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The position that this is an innocent program and simply taking drugs off the streets is not true,” Negrete said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In Riverside County, most traffic stops carried out for Stonegarden in \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2026/02/DARs_OPSG_San_Diego_11.1.23-3.14.24.pdf\">2023\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2026/02/RSO_DARS_2024-03-14_to_2024-10-15-1.pdf\">2024\u003c/a> by county sheriff’s officers resulted in “intel development” even when, as in most cases, no drugs were seized and no crime was committed. The sheriff’s department disclosed activity reports to CalMatters through public record requests, though other police agencies refused to provide the reports, stating that they are \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/education/2026/02/uc-san-diego-homeland-security-border-patrol/#:~:text=Multiple%20police%20departments%20told%20CalMatters%20that%2C%20though%20they%20still%20have%20access%20to%20see%20the%20reports%2C%20they%20cannot%20provide%20them%20through%20public%20record%20requests%2C%20as%20the%20reports%20become%20federal%20property%20once%20entered%20into%20the%20Homeland%20Security%20Information%20Network.\">federal property.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Battenberg said UC San Diego police can view but not access reports once they are submitted to Homeland Security, and did not answer whether UC San Diego could disclose its reports through record requests.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Campus advocacy response\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>On Feb. 17, Dixit contacted Secka, the campus police chief, by email, requesting to schedule a meeting regarding “critical student concerns” about campus police utilizing Homeland Security grants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, Dixit, an economics and cognitive science student, served in student government as the 2025-26 associate vice president of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion, and was the president of the \u003ca href=\"https://sclusd.org/\">Students’ Civil Liberties Union,\u003c/a> a nonprofit organization encouraging youth advocacy. Dixit copied Assistant Chief Frank Johnson and the police department’s general administrative contact on the email.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dixit received no response, he told CalMatters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12093513\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12093513\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/020426_UCSD-Police_AH_CM_06-scaled-1.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/020426_UCSD-Police_AH_CM_06-scaled-1.jpeg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/020426_UCSD-Police_AH_CM_06-scaled-1-2000x1334.jpeg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/020426_UCSD-Police_AH_CM_06-scaled-1-160x107.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/020426_UCSD-Police_AH_CM_06-scaled-1-1536x1024.jpeg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/020426_UCSD-Police_AH_CM_06-scaled-1-2048x1366.jpeg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The UC San Diego Police Department building at UC San Diego on Feb. 4, 2026. \u003ccite>(Adriana Heldiz/CalMatters)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>On Feb. 24, the Students’ Civil Liberties Union teamed up with the \u003ca href=\"https://elliscollective.org/\">Ellis Collective,\u003c/a> a research group directed by Negrete, and announced a \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/p/DVK2UXTlHNU/\">rally\u003c/a> scheduled for Feb. 26 to protest campus police getting money from the Department of Homeland Security.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the announcement, Dixit said, Secka agreed to meet with him for a one-on-one discussion a day before the protest. The two debated various issues to find places of compromise, and Secka told Dixit that the UC San Diego Police Department would halt participation in Stonegarden and not re-apply for it the next year, Dixit said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Secka did not respond to repeated interview requests from CalMatters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On \u003ca href=\"https://ucsdguardian.org/2026/03/02/students-rally-against-ucsdpds-participation-in-dhs-program/\">Feb. 26,\u003c/a> about 100 students attended the demonstration, and speakers condemned the university’s long-standing practice of working with federal immigration authorities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Diego State University police received \u003ca href=\"http://cams.ocgov.com/Web_Publisher_Sam/Agenda09_30_2014_files/images/O00214-001398A.PDF\">2013 Stonegarden funding\u003c/a> while Secka was the \u003ca href=\"http://cams.ocgov.com/Web_Publisher_Sam/Agenda09_30_2014_files/images/O00214-001398A.PDF#page=13\">interim police chief there.\u003c/a> That university is not listed in any available funding documents more recent than that. Amanda Stills, a public information officer for San Diego State’s police department, said the funds supported drug interdiction efforts.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Statewide funding increases\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Other agencies continue to collaborate with Homeland Security, which increased California’s Stonegarden allotment from\u003ca href=\"https://www.fema.gov/sites/default/files/documents/fema_gpd_homeland-security-grant-program-nofo_fy2025.pdf#page=57\"> $12.1 million\u003c/a> in 2025 to $13.4 million for 2026, per a recent \u003ca href=\"https://www.fema.gov/sites/default/files/documents/fema_gpd_hsgp-nofo-fy2026_0.pdf#page=75\">grant document.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As of 2025, sheriff’s departments from 11 counties receive funding, including Riverside, Los Angeles, San Diego, Orange, San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara, Ventura, Monterey, San Mateo, San Bernardino and Imperial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dozens of smaller police agencies have joined in as well, alongside \u003ca href=\"https://oceanside.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=14852095&GUID=4B35AB5F-D1E2-401E-87DD-97E1895C8257\">state agencies\u003c/a> like the Department of Fish and Wildlife and Department of Parks and Recreation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12080718\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1536px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12080718\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/032026-Chad-Bianco-GETTY-CM.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1536\" height=\"1024\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/032026-Chad-Bianco-GETTY-CM.jpeg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/032026-Chad-Bianco-GETTY-CM-160x107.jpeg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1536px) 100vw, 1536px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Riverside County Sheriff Chad Bianco speaks during a news conference on March 20, 2026. \u003ccite>(Anjali Sharif-Paul/The Sun via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In Fiscal Year 2024, the Los Angeles Interagency Metropolitan Police Apprehension Crime Task Force — known as L.A. IMPACT — \u003ca href=\"https://costamesa.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=14826607&GUID=E6601C50-2002-4E62-9EC1-D1612E35D48B\">joined Stonegarden.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The task force investigates major crimes, especially involving narcotics, and possesses some of the state’s most extensive surveillance resources, according to the \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/bi/laimpact\">Attorney General’s office.\u003c/a> It’s comprised of about 75 sworn officers from 48 local and state police agencies, a full list of which has not been made public previously.\u003cnoscript>\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" src=\"https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/VvuqN/full.png\" alt=\"What agencies contribute to L.A. IMPACT? (Table)\">\u003c/noscript>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Michael Burke, L.A. IMPACT’s executive director, told CalMatters that the task force’s Stonegarden activities are limited to drug trafficking investigations in Los Angeles.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Community weighed in\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>UC San Diego police had not released any public statements about the grant by March.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So on March 2, a local coalition of educators called the \u003ca href=\"https://sdclchighered.org/\">San Diego Chicano/Latino Concilio on Higher Education,\u003c/a> which advocates for Latino student success, pressed UC San Diego Chancellor Pradeep Khosla directly in an email.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Velasquez, the coalition’s co-chair, argued that Stonegarden distracts police from campus safety and promotes surveillance by authorizing purchases of \u003ca href=\"http://cams.ocgov.com/Web_Publisher_SAM/Agenda11_17_2020_files/images/O00220-000903A.PDF#page=49\">search cameras\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://media.rivcocob.org/proceeds/2023/p2023_07_18_files/03.25001.pdf#page=37\">data-collecting devices.\u003c/a> He also noted that Dobbins told CalMatters campus officers do not enforce immigration law, but use the patrols to search for migrants that cross the border on panga boats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12093526\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12093526\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-661610888.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1320\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-661610888.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-661610888-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-661610888-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">University Of California, San Diego, Geisel Library, in La Jolla, California. \u003ccite>(Education Images/Citizens of the Planet/Universal Images Group via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Also unsettling, Velasquez told the chancellor, is that civilians cannot obtain information about Stonegarden from local police.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Finally, Velasquez argued, since a 2025 \u003ca href=\"https://drive.google.com/file/d/1c3MTTKkTeI_vXtHLPiQPUZ4FkJLyY47O/view?usp=sharing\">grant document\u003c/a> from Imperial County encourages police to apprehend all “criminal aliens” suspected of violating immigration law, Latino students might be targeted on the basis of their appearance or language spoken. The coalition demanded the university leave the program, Velasquez wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dangoria, the vice chancellor, confirmed in a March 4 emailed response to Velasquez, reviewed by CalMatters, that university police would not reapply for the grant, also stating that campus police have followed a decade-old \u003ca href=\"https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/sites/default/files/Statement-of-Principles-in-Support-of-Undocumented-Members-of-UC.pdf\">UC policy\u003c/a> barring campus police from working with ICE or detaining people based on suspected undocumented immigration status.[aside postID=news_12092703 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/072826-PALESTINEACTIVISTMEMORIAL-15-MC-KQED_1.jpg']In the 2025 interview, Dobbins told CalMatters that UC San Diego had participated in Operation Stonegarden every year since about 2012. Dangoria stated in her email that university police have not participated in Stonegarden activities since 2024, which the university’s Communications team affirmed. \u003ca href=\"https://oceanside.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=14852095&GUID=4B35AB5F-D1E2-401E-87DD-97E1895C8257#page=2\">The 2024 funding agreement\u003c/a> states operations would last from April 2025 to February 2027.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dangoria wrote in another message to Velasquez on March 11 that the police department might apply for other Homeland Security grants not related to immigration enforcement, “as DHS oversees many federal agencies, including the Federal Emergency Management Agency.” Stonegarden is \u003ca href=\"https://www.fema.gov/grants/preparedness/homeland-security\">run by FEMA.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I want to reiterate that UC San Diego is deeply committed to cultivating and maintaining a campus environment that is safe and welcoming for all members of our community, regardless of immigration status,” Dangoria wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Phoebe Huss is a contributor with the College Journalism Network, a collaboration between CalMatters and student journalists from across California. CalMatters higher education coverage is supported by a grant from the College Futures Foundation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This article was \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/education/2026/07/uc-san-diego-homeland-security-border-patrol-students-protest/\">originally published on CalMatters\u003c/a> and was republished under the \u003ca href=\"https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/\">Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives\u003c/a> license.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "A California University Is Cutting Ties With US Border Patrol After Student Outcry | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c!-- Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/ -->\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was originally published by \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/\">CalMatters\u003c/a>. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/subscribe-to-calmatters/\">Sign up\u003c/a> for their newsletters.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/california\">California\u003c/a> public university cut ties with a federal program that paid for campus police to aid Border Patrol, within weeks of CalMatters revealing the decade-long partnership.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Operation Stonegarden, a grant managed by the Department of Homeland Security, allocates an average of $11 million each year for California law enforcement agencies to work with U.S. Customs and Border Protection and its subagency Border Patrol on border security missions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dozens of police forces throughout the state receive the grant, including campus police at UC San Diego, a recipient since around 2012.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On Feb. 10, a \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/education/2026/02/uc-san-diego-homeland-security-border-patrol/\">CalMatters article\u003c/a> explained how UC San Diego police used the grant to patrol sections of the coastline near campus, which quickly set off an uproar among students who felt it placed undocumented and international students at risk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By Feb. 26, after students emailed complaints and threatened to hold a public rally, student Aryan Dixit said the campus police chief, Lamine Secka, agreed to leave the grant program in a one-on-one meeting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12011934\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12011934\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241031-BORDER-CROSSINGS-ZM-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241031-BORDER-CROSSINGS-ZM-02-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241031-BORDER-CROSSINGS-ZM-02-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241031-BORDER-CROSSINGS-ZM-02-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241031-BORDER-CROSSINGS-ZM-02-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241031-BORDER-CROSSINGS-ZM-02-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241031-BORDER-CROSSINGS-ZM-02-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The heavily fortified U.S.-Mexico border fence ends in the Pacific Ocean between the Playas de Tijuana neighborhood and Border Field State Park in San Diego, Sept. 16, 2024. \u003ccite>(Zoë Meyers for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Melinda Battenberg, a spokesperson at UC San Diego, declined to confirm whether campus police left the grant program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, internal \u003ca href=\"https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZBMvcgRwHqnD-1ywkx0Ta4hOUxDvAYfS/view?usp=sharing\">emails\u003c/a> sent in March from a university vice chancellor, Niraj Dangoria, to Patrick Velasquez, a retired university employee and Chicano education advocacy leader, that were reviewed by CalMatters additionally confirmed that the college intended to cease using the grant and has no plans to reapply in the future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In May, Lt. Michael Gonzales of the San Diego County Sheriff’s Office, which manages Stonegarden-funded operations in the San Diego area, told CalMatters the university will not be involved in future grant operations.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Concern quickly spread\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Daniel Negrete, a fourth-year business economics student at UC San Diego, said he found it “crazy” his campus maintained a working relationship with Border Patrol.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Once the news broke, there was a lot of on-campus concern, he added. Students at a Feb. 18 anti-ICE walkout criticized the university’s relationship with Homeland Security, according to UC San Diego’s student newspaper, \u003ca href=\"https://ucsdguardian.org/2026/02/23/ucsd-students-walk-out-against-ice/#:~:text=Speakers%20at%20the%20walkout%20also%20criticized%20the%20University%E2%80%99s%20collaboration%20with%20immigration%20enforcement.%C2%A0\">The Guardian.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was… shocked that the university was letting this happen,” Negrete said. “There’s no way that at least someone in higher administration wasn’t aware of this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12074482\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12074482\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/GettyImages-2262729717-scaled-e1773182284895.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1413\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">President Donald Trump speaks during a press briefing at the White House on Feb. 20, 2026, in Washington, D.C. \u003ccite>(Chen Mengtong/China News Service/VCG via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>According to a \u003ca href=\"https://www.fema.gov/sites/default/files/documents/fema_gpd_homeland-security-grant-program-nofo_fy2025.pdf#page=22\">2025 grant document\u003c/a>, Operation Stonegarden enhances collaboration between federal and local law enforcement to secure borders. The program also promotes information sharing, including through regular \u003ca href=\"https://oceanside.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=14852095&GUID=4B35AB5F-D1E2-401E-87DD-97E1895C8257#page=5\">meetings\u003c/a> and mandatory reports.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since its 2006 founding, the grant has raised concerns about privacy and adherence to California’s \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180SB54\">sanctuary law.\u003c/a> The Electronic Frontier Foundation, a privacy advocacy group, asked President Donald Trump to end Stonegarden in a 2025 \u003ca href=\"https://www.eff.org/files/2025/01/30/2025_transition_memo.pdf#page=12\">memo,\u003c/a> adding that surveillance technology companies \u003ca href=\"https://www.pelco.com/blog/operation-stonegarden#how-can-you-use-operation-stonegarden-funds\">encourage police to join the program\u003c/a> to get them to buy their products.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Patrick Dobbins, a UC San Diego police sergeant and the university’s designated Stonegarden coordinator, told CalMatters in November 2025 that the university used the grant to pay for officers to work overtime on border patrols. He added that the grant was used to promote health and safety.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Every year since \u003ca href=\"https://web.archive.org/web/20200501091247/https://www.fema.gov/media-library-data/1583442273016-07cbcf9445f9fda3cdc5bf8439ec72c9/FY_2020_HSGP_NOFO_FINAL_508ML4.pdf\">2020,\u003c/a> Homeland Security requested grant recipients to prioritize \u003ca href=\"https://www.ice.gov/identify-and-arrest/287g\">training officers\u003c/a> as immigration agents, though that is illegal in California under the sanctuary law. In \u003ca href=\"https://www.fema.gov/grants/preparedness/homeland-security/fy-25-nofo#:~:text=F.%20OPSG,SHSP%20and%20UASI.\">2025\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.fema.gov/sites/default/files/documents/fema_gpd_hsgp-nofo-fy2026.pdf#page=24\">2026,\u003c/a> became the grant’s overall emphasis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dangoria wrote in a March email to Velasquez that the university’s Stonegarden funds are used “for operations focused on drug and human trafficking and not immigration enforcement.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, Negrete said he was bothered by a 2025 Office of Inspector General audit that found \u003ca href=\"https://www.oig.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/assets/2025-06/OIG-25-26-Jun25.pdf#page=8\">only 15%\u003c/a> of Stonegarden funds are used for drug enforcement and that, according to Homeland Security, drug interdiction is “incidental” to Stonegarden operations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The position that this is an innocent program and simply taking drugs off the streets is not true,” Negrete said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In Riverside County, most traffic stops carried out for Stonegarden in \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2026/02/DARs_OPSG_San_Diego_11.1.23-3.14.24.pdf\">2023\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2026/02/RSO_DARS_2024-03-14_to_2024-10-15-1.pdf\">2024\u003c/a> by county sheriff’s officers resulted in “intel development” even when, as in most cases, no drugs were seized and no crime was committed. The sheriff’s department disclosed activity reports to CalMatters through public record requests, though other police agencies refused to provide the reports, stating that they are \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/education/2026/02/uc-san-diego-homeland-security-border-patrol/#:~:text=Multiple%20police%20departments%20told%20CalMatters%20that%2C%20though%20they%20still%20have%20access%20to%20see%20the%20reports%2C%20they%20cannot%20provide%20them%20through%20public%20record%20requests%2C%20as%20the%20reports%20become%20federal%20property%20once%20entered%20into%20the%20Homeland%20Security%20Information%20Network.\">federal property.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Battenberg said UC San Diego police can view but not access reports once they are submitted to Homeland Security, and did not answer whether UC San Diego could disclose its reports through record requests.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Campus advocacy response\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>On Feb. 17, Dixit contacted Secka, the campus police chief, by email, requesting to schedule a meeting regarding “critical student concerns” about campus police utilizing Homeland Security grants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, Dixit, an economics and cognitive science student, served in student government as the 2025-26 associate vice president of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion, and was the president of the \u003ca href=\"https://sclusd.org/\">Students’ Civil Liberties Union,\u003c/a> a nonprofit organization encouraging youth advocacy. Dixit copied Assistant Chief Frank Johnson and the police department’s general administrative contact on the email.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dixit received no response, he told CalMatters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12093513\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12093513\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/020426_UCSD-Police_AH_CM_06-scaled-1.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/020426_UCSD-Police_AH_CM_06-scaled-1.jpeg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/020426_UCSD-Police_AH_CM_06-scaled-1-2000x1334.jpeg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/020426_UCSD-Police_AH_CM_06-scaled-1-160x107.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/020426_UCSD-Police_AH_CM_06-scaled-1-1536x1024.jpeg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/020426_UCSD-Police_AH_CM_06-scaled-1-2048x1366.jpeg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The UC San Diego Police Department building at UC San Diego on Feb. 4, 2026. \u003ccite>(Adriana Heldiz/CalMatters)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>On Feb. 24, the Students’ Civil Liberties Union teamed up with the \u003ca href=\"https://elliscollective.org/\">Ellis Collective,\u003c/a> a research group directed by Negrete, and announced a \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/p/DVK2UXTlHNU/\">rally\u003c/a> scheduled for Feb. 26 to protest campus police getting money from the Department of Homeland Security.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the announcement, Dixit said, Secka agreed to meet with him for a one-on-one discussion a day before the protest. The two debated various issues to find places of compromise, and Secka told Dixit that the UC San Diego Police Department would halt participation in Stonegarden and not re-apply for it the next year, Dixit said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Secka did not respond to repeated interview requests from CalMatters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On \u003ca href=\"https://ucsdguardian.org/2026/03/02/students-rally-against-ucsdpds-participation-in-dhs-program/\">Feb. 26,\u003c/a> about 100 students attended the demonstration, and speakers condemned the university’s long-standing practice of working with federal immigration authorities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Diego State University police received \u003ca href=\"http://cams.ocgov.com/Web_Publisher_Sam/Agenda09_30_2014_files/images/O00214-001398A.PDF\">2013 Stonegarden funding\u003c/a> while Secka was the \u003ca href=\"http://cams.ocgov.com/Web_Publisher_Sam/Agenda09_30_2014_files/images/O00214-001398A.PDF#page=13\">interim police chief there.\u003c/a> That university is not listed in any available funding documents more recent than that. Amanda Stills, a public information officer for San Diego State’s police department, said the funds supported drug interdiction efforts.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Statewide funding increases\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Other agencies continue to collaborate with Homeland Security, which increased California’s Stonegarden allotment from\u003ca href=\"https://www.fema.gov/sites/default/files/documents/fema_gpd_homeland-security-grant-program-nofo_fy2025.pdf#page=57\"> $12.1 million\u003c/a> in 2025 to $13.4 million for 2026, per a recent \u003ca href=\"https://www.fema.gov/sites/default/files/documents/fema_gpd_hsgp-nofo-fy2026_0.pdf#page=75\">grant document.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As of 2025, sheriff’s departments from 11 counties receive funding, including Riverside, Los Angeles, San Diego, Orange, San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara, Ventura, Monterey, San Mateo, San Bernardino and Imperial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dozens of smaller police agencies have joined in as well, alongside \u003ca href=\"https://oceanside.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=14852095&GUID=4B35AB5F-D1E2-401E-87DD-97E1895C8257\">state agencies\u003c/a> like the Department of Fish and Wildlife and Department of Parks and Recreation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12080718\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1536px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12080718\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/032026-Chad-Bianco-GETTY-CM.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1536\" height=\"1024\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/032026-Chad-Bianco-GETTY-CM.jpeg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/032026-Chad-Bianco-GETTY-CM-160x107.jpeg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1536px) 100vw, 1536px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Riverside County Sheriff Chad Bianco speaks during a news conference on March 20, 2026. \u003ccite>(Anjali Sharif-Paul/The Sun via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In Fiscal Year 2024, the Los Angeles Interagency Metropolitan Police Apprehension Crime Task Force — known as L.A. IMPACT — \u003ca href=\"https://costamesa.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=14826607&GUID=E6601C50-2002-4E62-9EC1-D1612E35D48B\">joined Stonegarden.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The task force investigates major crimes, especially involving narcotics, and possesses some of the state’s most extensive surveillance resources, according to the \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/bi/laimpact\">Attorney General’s office.\u003c/a> It’s comprised of about 75 sworn officers from 48 local and state police agencies, a full list of which has not been made public previously.\u003cnoscript>\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" src=\"https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/VvuqN/full.png\" alt=\"What agencies contribute to L.A. IMPACT? (Table)\">\u003c/noscript>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Michael Burke, L.A. IMPACT’s executive director, told CalMatters that the task force’s Stonegarden activities are limited to drug trafficking investigations in Los Angeles.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Community weighed in\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>UC San Diego police had not released any public statements about the grant by March.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So on March 2, a local coalition of educators called the \u003ca href=\"https://sdclchighered.org/\">San Diego Chicano/Latino Concilio on Higher Education,\u003c/a> which advocates for Latino student success, pressed UC San Diego Chancellor Pradeep Khosla directly in an email.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Velasquez, the coalition’s co-chair, argued that Stonegarden distracts police from campus safety and promotes surveillance by authorizing purchases of \u003ca href=\"http://cams.ocgov.com/Web_Publisher_SAM/Agenda11_17_2020_files/images/O00220-000903A.PDF#page=49\">search cameras\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://media.rivcocob.org/proceeds/2023/p2023_07_18_files/03.25001.pdf#page=37\">data-collecting devices.\u003c/a> He also noted that Dobbins told CalMatters campus officers do not enforce immigration law, but use the patrols to search for migrants that cross the border on panga boats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12093526\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12093526\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-661610888.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1320\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-661610888.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-661610888-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-661610888-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">University Of California, San Diego, Geisel Library, in La Jolla, California. \u003ccite>(Education Images/Citizens of the Planet/Universal Images Group via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Also unsettling, Velasquez told the chancellor, is that civilians cannot obtain information about Stonegarden from local police.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Finally, Velasquez argued, since a 2025 \u003ca href=\"https://drive.google.com/file/d/1c3MTTKkTeI_vXtHLPiQPUZ4FkJLyY47O/view?usp=sharing\">grant document\u003c/a> from Imperial County encourages police to apprehend all “criminal aliens” suspected of violating immigration law, Latino students might be targeted on the basis of their appearance or language spoken. The coalition demanded the university leave the program, Velasquez wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dangoria, the vice chancellor, confirmed in a March 4 emailed response to Velasquez, reviewed by CalMatters, that university police would not reapply for the grant, also stating that campus police have followed a decade-old \u003ca href=\"https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/sites/default/files/Statement-of-Principles-in-Support-of-Undocumented-Members-of-UC.pdf\">UC policy\u003c/a> barring campus police from working with ICE or detaining people based on suspected undocumented immigration status.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>In the 2025 interview, Dobbins told CalMatters that UC San Diego had participated in Operation Stonegarden every year since about 2012. Dangoria stated in her email that university police have not participated in Stonegarden activities since 2024, which the university’s Communications team affirmed. \u003ca href=\"https://oceanside.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=14852095&GUID=4B35AB5F-D1E2-401E-87DD-97E1895C8257#page=2\">The 2024 funding agreement\u003c/a> states operations would last from April 2025 to February 2027.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dangoria wrote in another message to Velasquez on March 11 that the police department might apply for other Homeland Security grants not related to immigration enforcement, “as DHS oversees many federal agencies, including the Federal Emergency Management Agency.” Stonegarden is \u003ca href=\"https://www.fema.gov/grants/preparedness/homeland-security\">run by FEMA.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I want to reiterate that UC San Diego is deeply committed to cultivating and maintaining a campus environment that is safe and welcoming for all members of our community, regardless of immigration status,” Dangoria wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Phoebe Huss is a contributor with the College Journalism Network, a collaboration between CalMatters and student journalists from across California. CalMatters higher education coverage is supported by a grant from the College Futures Foundation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This article was \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/education/2026/07/uc-san-diego-homeland-security-border-patrol-students-protest/\">originally published on CalMatters\u003c/a> and was republished under the \u003ca href=\"https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/\">Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives\u003c/a> license.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "california-teacher-misconduct-database-bill-failed-al-muratsuchi",
"title": "California Lawmakers Fail to Fix Warning System for Teacher Misconduct — Again",
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"headTitle": "California Lawmakers Fail to Fix Warning System for Teacher Misconduct — Again | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>This article was produced for ProPublica’s Local Reporting Network in partnership with \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/\">\u003cem>KQED\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>. \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.propublica.org/newsletters/dispatches\">\u003cem>Sign up for Dispatches\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem> to get stories like this one as soon as they are published. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A last-ditch legislative attempt to help California school districts keep problematic teachers out of the classroom has collapsed following opposition from unions and the state teacher licensing agency that a proposed searchable database would violate privacy and subject educators to unfair treatment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The proposed database, introduced by a Democratic member of the state Assembly in June, would have allowed schools to see if applicants for public school teaching positions had been reported to the state after they were fired or resigned over claims of misconduct. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The California Federation of Teachers pushed back, warning that teachers could land in the database even if schools had not determined they committed serious misconduct. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We would support legislation that targets substantiated reports of egregious misconduct,” said Tristan Brown, a lobbyist with the California Federation of Teachers. “We live in a state with Silicon Valley. The state should be able to support a system that is up to date and tracking substantiated reports of misconduct.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Democratic Assemblymember Al Muratsuchi had proposed to make it easier for schools to screen teacher applicants after a KQED-ProPublica investigation published in May. The news outlets revealed how delays and inaction, combined with a lack of transparency, allowed educators to get new jobs after school districts reported them to the state teacher licensing agency for sexual harassment or other misconduct.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-2231342591.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093325\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-2231342591.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-2231342591-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-2231342591-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">California Assemblymember Al Muratsuchi, a Democrat who introduced the teacher accountability bill, said his office was “confronted with a lot of resistance” over whether it would lead to unfair treatment of the accused. (Justin Sullivan/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A similar effort by Republican lawmakers to address the issue also hit roadblocks earlier this year. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“When the safety of a child does not meet a legislative priority, that’s a head-scratcher for me,” said Republican Assemblymember Tom Lackey, who co-authored the first attempt to create the teacher database. “I think being sympathetic to the offender is on the wrong side of this issue.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Both bills were modeled on a law the Legislature passed in 2025 mandating the creation of a database by next summer that will allow employers to search the names of school support staff, such as bus drivers, custodians and teaching assistants, who are under investigation by their schools or have substantiated complaints of egregious misconduct. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The database for school support staff passed after months of tense negotiations. Under that system, employees’ names would be removed from the database if school investigations fail to substantiate claims of egregious misconduct. The bill passed despite opposition from unions, but the system that will be put in place is still being refined. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But that law explicitly does not apply to public school teachers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The system currently in place for public school educators is a patchwork with a fair number of gaps. School districts have long been required to report to the state any teacher who is fired or who resigns due to misconduct. But the state’s teacher licensing agency, which collects all of those reports, is restricted by state law in what information the agency can share while it investigates. The state’s disciplinary process typically takes one year, and teachers could be hired during the investigation period without schools knowing about the claims against them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>California’s publicly accessible online database of credentialed educators does indicate, with a red-flag icon, whether those public school teachers have been disciplined by the state. But it does not explain the reason for the sanction or provide a link to any documents. It is only after the state licensing agency recommends an educator be disciplined that prospective employers can request a summary of the case and the agency’s findings.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Without such details, California school administrators must rely on teachers themselves or their previous employers to provide key information. A law passed in 2024 requires teacher candidates to share their complete job history in education and mandates that school districts ask every previous employer whether a candidate had been reported to the credentialing agency for credible or substantiated complaints of egregious misconduct. If so, previous schools must share the relevant information. But that law keeps bad actors out of schools only if teachers and schools keep — and provide — accurate records.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For more than a year, California school administrators have lobbied lawmakers for a better way to protect students from those with a history of misconduct. “A database is needed to provide more complete, timely information so that schools can fulfill their responsibility to put trusted adults in positions that work with students,” said Dorothy Johnson, a lobbyist with the Association of California School Administrators, whose members include superintendents, principals and human resources officials. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260318-ProPublica-CATeacherDiscipline-04-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093305\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260318-ProPublica-CATeacherDiscipline-04-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260318-ProPublica-CATeacherDiscipline-04-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260318-ProPublica-CATeacherDiscipline-04-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Committee of Credentials, a subcommittee of the California Commission on Teacher Credentialing, meets in Sacramento, California, on March 18, 2026, as part of three days of deliberations. The subcommittee reviews cases involving alleged educator misconduct. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Under \u003ca href=\"https://legiscan.com/CA/text/AB1381/id/3448036\">the original bill\u003c/a> authored by Muratsuchi and sponsored by the school administrators association, teachers would be added to a new database if their school districts have reported them to the state for misconduct. Before making job offers, schools would be required to check the database, accessible only to employers, for names of teachers with substantiated and credible complaints of egregious misconduct. Then, schools would be required to request records about misconduct from the districts that reported them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Muratsuchi said his office was “immediately confronted with a lot of resistance,” with teachers unions raising concerns over fair treatment of the accused. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Brown, the lobbyist for the California Federation of Teachers, said the language in the measure was too broad. He said the union would not object to a database that identifies only teachers with substantiated complaints of egregious misconduct, but the bill also states that reports of “possible misconduct” would be included. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Our opposition is really focused on making sure we’re looking at dangerous conduct that we can definitively say happened,” Brown said.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Muratsuchi, who pulled language for his bill directly from the previous effort by Republican Assemblymember Kate Sanchez, said his intent was for the database to focus on egregious misconduct reports that were substantiated and credible. Had he had more time, he said, he would have clarified the language through the legislative process and addressed the unions’ concerns. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But he introduced the bill with just weeks left in the legislative session. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Seth Bramble, a lobbyist for the California Teachers Association, the state’s most powerful teachers union, wrote in a statement that the proposed database would lead to “employment consequences for innocent teachers based on allegations later determined to be unfounded.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“CTA unequivocally supports protecting students, ensuring that credible misconduct information is shared with prospective school employers, and preventing individuals who commit egregious misconduct from moving from school to school,” Bramble wrote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Trump administration singled out teachers unions as obstructions to legislative reforms to protect children when it announced a national crackdown in July on how school districts handle accusations of sexual misconduct by teachers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Teachers’ unions’ demonstrated commitment to shield their members from disciplinary action for gross misconduct cannot trump basic moral and legal responsibilities to students and families,” Secretary of Education Linda McMahon wrote in the open letter to state school chiefs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090872/trump-administration-launches-crackdown-on-teacher-sexual-misconduct-following-kqed-propublica-investigation\">McMahon cited\u003c/a> KQED and ProPublica’s finding that California’s teacher licensing agency has not revoked the professional credentials of at least 67 educators who school districts determined had sexually harassed students or committed other sexual misconduct. At least 14 of those educators were rehired by other schools. That included Bay Area math teacher \u003ca href=\"https://www.propublica.org/article/california-fired-teacher-sexual-harassment\">Jason Agan, who two schools hired\u003c/a> despite having been fired after an independent panel determined he sexually harassed female students and massaged their shoulders after he’d been warned to stop. Agan was removed from the classroom the day after the story was published.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A substitute replaced him for the remainder of the school year.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Agan has denied any sexual motivation in touching students and said during his dismissal hearing at his first school that he touched students only to offer them support.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1653\" height=\"1103\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260324-ProPublica-CATeacherDiscipline-26-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093306\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260324-ProPublica-CATeacherDiscipline-26-BL_qed.jpg 1653w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260324-ProPublica-CATeacherDiscipline-26-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260324-ProPublica-CATeacherDiscipline-26-BL_qed-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1653px) 100vw, 1653px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A photo of teacher Jason Agan in the Rodriguez High School yearbook from 2005 at the Fairfield Civic Center Library in Fairfield, California, on March 24, 2026. Two schools hired Agan despite having been fired after an independent panel determined he sexually harassed female students and massaged their shoulders after he’d been warned to stop. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Commission on Teacher Credentialing, California’s educator licensing agency, joined the unions in objecting to the bill to add teachers to the misconduct database. Jonathon Howard, the government relations manager for the credentialing agency, told Muratsuchi in a June 19 email obtained by KQED and ProPublica that complying with the proposed legislation would “require Commission staff to commit crimes.” Howard cited state laws restricting what information the teacher licensing agency is allowed to share. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Muratsuchi’s bill, Howard said, would expose the agency to “significant liability.” “The Commission does not oppose the goal of ensuring that credentialed educators with substantiated histories of serious misconduct cannot move undetected between schools,” Howard wrote. “However, achieving that goal requires legislation that is legally sound, operationally workable, and fair to the educators whose livelihoods and professional reputations are at stake.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Anita Fitzhugh, a spokesperson for the Commission on Teacher Credentialing, previously told KQED and ProPublica that the agency “stands ready to implement any additional public protections that the Legislature authorizes.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Within weeks of introducing the bill and following opposition, Muratsuchi scrapped the idea of adding teachers reported to the state for egregious misconduct to the database and instead amended the bill to clarify that the teacher licensing agency may penalize administrators who don’t thoroughly vet applicants. The school administrators association withdrew its sponsorship.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Muratsuchi, whose term expires in December, said he still supports more access to information about educators disciplined for serious misconduct. But with the legislative session ending Aug. 31, time is running out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I tried,” Muratsuchi said. “I hope future Legislatures pick up the ball.” \u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article was produced for ProPublica’s Local Reporting Network in partnership with \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/\">\u003cem>KQED\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>. \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.propublica.org/newsletters/dispatches\">\u003cem>Sign up for Dispatches\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem> to get stories like this one as soon as they are published. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article was produced for ProPublica’s Local Reporting Network in partnership with \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/\">\u003cem>KQED\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>. \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.propublica.org/newsletters/dispatches\">\u003cem>Sign up for Dispatches\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem> to get stories like this one as soon as they are published. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A last-ditch legislative attempt to help California school districts keep problematic teachers out of the classroom has collapsed following opposition from unions and the state teacher licensing agency that a proposed searchable database would violate privacy and subject educators to unfair treatment. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A last-ditch legislative attempt to help California school districts keep problematic teachers out of the classroom has collapsed following opposition from unions and the state teacher licensing agency that a proposed searchable database would violate privacy and subject educators to unfair treatment. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The proposed database, introduced by a Democratic member of the state Assembly in June, would have allowed schools to see if applicants for public school teaching positions had been reported to the state after they were fired or resigned over claims of misconduct. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The proposed database, introduced by a Democratic member of the state Assembly in June, would have allowed schools to see if applicants for public school teaching positions had been reported to the state after they were fired or resigned over claims of misconduct. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The California Federation of Teachers pushed back, warning that teachers could land in the database even if schools had not determined they committed serious misconduct. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The California Federation of Teachers pushed back, warning that teachers could land in the database even if schools had not determined they committed serious misconduct. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We would support legislation that targets substantiated reports of egregious misconduct,” said Tristan Brown, a lobbyist with the California Federation of Teachers. “We live in a state with Silicon Valley. The state should be able to support a system that is up to date and tracking substantiated reports of misconduct.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“We would support legislation that targets substantiated reports of egregious misconduct,” said Tristan Brown, a lobbyist with the California Federation of Teachers. “We live in a state with Silicon Valley. The state should be able to support a system that is up to date and tracking substantiated reports of misconduct.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Democratic Assemblymember Al Muratsuchi had proposed to make it easier for schools to screen teacher applicants after a KQED-ProPublica investigation published in May. The news outlets revealed how delays and inaction, combined with a lack of transparency, allowed educators to get new jobs after school districts reported them to the state teacher licensing agency for sexual harassment or other misconduct.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Democratic Assemblymember Al Muratsuchi had proposed to make it easier for schools to screen teacher applicants after a KQED-ProPublica investigation published in May. The news outlets revealed how delays and inaction, combined with a lack of transparency, allowed educators to get new jobs after school districts reported them to the state teacher licensing agency for sexual harassment or other misconduct.\u003c/p>\n"
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"srcset": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-2231342591.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-2231342591-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-2231342591-1536x1024.jpg 1536w",
"sizes": "(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-2231342591.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093325\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-2231342591.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-2231342591-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-2231342591-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">California Assemblymember Al Muratsuchi, a Democrat who introduced the teacher accountability bill, said his office was “confronted with a lot of resistance” over whether it would lead to unfair treatment of the accused.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-2231342591.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093325\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">California Assemblymember Al Muratsuchi, a Democrat who introduced the teacher accountability bill, said his office was “confronted with a lot of resistance” over whether it would lead to unfair treatment of the accused.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A similar effort by Republican lawmakers to address the issue also hit roadblocks earlier this year. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A similar effort by Republican lawmakers to address the issue also hit roadblocks earlier this year. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“When the safety of a child does not meet a legislative priority, that’s a head-scratcher for me,” said Republican Assemblymember Tom Lackey, who co-authored the first attempt to create the teacher database. “I think being sympathetic to the offender is on the wrong side of this issue.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“When the safety of a child does not meet a legislative priority, that’s a head-scratcher for me,” said Republican Assemblymember Tom Lackey, who co-authored the first attempt to create the teacher database. “I think being sympathetic to the offender is on the wrong side of this issue.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Both bills were modeled on a law the Legislature passed in 2025 mandating the creation of a database by next summer that will allow employers to search the names of school support staff, such as bus drivers, custodians and teaching assistants, who are under investigation by their schools or have substantiated complaints of egregious misconduct. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Both bills were modeled on a law the Legislature passed in 2025 mandating the creation of a database by next summer that will allow employers to search the names of school support staff, such as bus drivers, custodians and teaching assistants, who are under investigation by their schools or have substantiated complaints of egregious misconduct. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The database for school support staff passed after months of tense negotiations. Under that system, employees’ names would be removed from the database if school investigations fail to substantiate claims of egregious misconduct. The bill passed despite opposition from unions, but the system that will be put in place is still being refined. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The database for school support staff passed after months of tense negotiations. Under that system, employees’ names would be removed from the database if school investigations fail to substantiate claims of egregious misconduct. The bill passed despite opposition from unions, but the system that will be put in place is still being refined. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But that law explicitly does not apply to public school teachers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But that law explicitly does not apply to public school teachers. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The system currently in place for public school educators is a patchwork with a fair number of gaps. School districts have long been required to report to the state any teacher who is fired or who resigns due to misconduct. But the state’s teacher licensing agency, which collects all of those reports, is restricted by state law in what information the agency can share while it investigates. The state’s disciplinary process typically takes one year, and teachers could be hired during the investigation period without schools knowing about the claims against them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The system currently in place for public school educators is a patchwork with a fair number of gaps. School districts have long been required to report to the state any teacher who is fired or who resigns due to misconduct. But the state’s teacher licensing agency, which collects all of those reports, is restricted by state law in what information the agency can share while it investigates. The state’s disciplinary process typically takes one year, and teachers could be hired during the investigation period without schools knowing about the claims against them. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>California’s publicly accessible online database of credentialed educators does indicate, with a red-flag icon, whether those public school teachers have been disciplined by the state. But it does not explain the reason for the sanction or provide a link to any documents. It is only after the state licensing agency recommends an educator be disciplined that prospective employers can request a summary of the case and the agency’s findings.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>California’s publicly accessible online database of credentialed educators does indicate, with a red-flag icon, whether those public school teachers have been disciplined by the state. But it does not explain the reason for the sanction or provide a link to any documents. It is only after the state licensing agency recommends an educator be disciplined that prospective employers can request a summary of the case and the agency’s findings.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Without such details, California school administrators must rely on teachers themselves or their previous employers to provide key information. A law passed in 2024 requires teacher candidates to share their complete job history in education and mandates that school districts ask every previous employer whether a candidate had been reported to the credentialing agency for credible or substantiated complaints of egregious misconduct. If so, previous schools must share the relevant information. But that law keeps bad actors out of schools only if teachers and schools keep — and provide — accurate records.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Without such details, California school administrators must rely on teachers themselves or their previous employers to provide key information. A law passed in 2024 requires teacher candidates to share their complete job history in education and mandates that school districts ask every previous employer whether a candidate had been reported to the credentialing agency for credible or substantiated complaints of egregious misconduct. If so, previous schools must share the relevant information. But that law keeps bad actors out of schools only if teachers and schools keep — and provide — accurate records.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For more than a year, California school administrators have lobbied lawmakers for a better way to protect students from those with a history of misconduct. “A database is needed to provide more complete, timely information so that schools can fulfill their responsibility to put trusted adults in positions that work with students,” said Dorothy Johnson, a lobbyist with the Association of California School Administrators, whose members include superintendents, principals and human resources officials. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For more than a year, California school administrators have lobbied lawmakers for a better way to protect students from those with a history of misconduct. “A database is needed to provide more complete, timely information so that schools can fulfill their responsibility to put trusted adults in positions that work with students,” said Dorothy Johnson, a lobbyist with the Association of California School Administrators, whose members include superintendents, principals and human resources officials. \u003c/p>\n"
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"srcset": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260318-ProPublica-CATeacherDiscipline-04-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260318-ProPublica-CATeacherDiscipline-04-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260318-ProPublica-CATeacherDiscipline-04-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260318-ProPublica-CATeacherDiscipline-04-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093305\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260318-ProPublica-CATeacherDiscipline-04-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260318-ProPublica-CATeacherDiscipline-04-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260318-ProPublica-CATeacherDiscipline-04-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Committee of Credentials, a subcommittee of the California Commission on Teacher Credentialing, meets in Sacramento, California, on March 18, 2026, as part of three days of deliberations. The subcommittee reviews cases involving alleged educator misconduct.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260318-ProPublica-CATeacherDiscipline-04-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093305\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Committee of Credentials, a subcommittee of the California Commission on Teacher Credentialing, meets in Sacramento, California, on March 18, 2026, as part of three days of deliberations. The subcommittee reviews cases involving alleged educator misconduct.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Under \u003ca href=\"https://legiscan.com/CA/text/AB1381/id/3448036\">the original bill\u003c/a> authored by Muratsuchi and sponsored by the school administrators association, teachers would be added to a new database if their school districts have reported them to the state for misconduct. Before making job offers, schools would be required to check the database, accessible only to employers, for names of teachers with substantiated and credible complaints of egregious misconduct. Then, schools would be required to request records about misconduct from the districts that reported them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Under \u003ca href=\"https://legiscan.com/CA/text/AB1381/id/3448036\">the original bill\u003c/a> authored by Muratsuchi and sponsored by the school administrators association, teachers would be added to a new database if their school districts have reported them to the state for misconduct. Before making job offers, schools would be required to check the database, accessible only to employers, for names of teachers with substantiated and credible complaints of egregious misconduct. Then, schools would be required to request records about misconduct from the districts that reported them. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Muratsuchi said his office was “immediately confronted with a lot of resistance,” with teachers unions raising concerns over fair treatment of the accused. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Muratsuchi said his office was “immediately confronted with a lot of resistance,” with teachers unions raising concerns over fair treatment of the accused. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Brown, the lobbyist for the California Federation of Teachers, said the language in the measure was too broad. He said the union would not object to a database that identifies only teachers with substantiated complaints of egregious misconduct, but the bill also states that reports of “possible misconduct” would be included. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Brown, the lobbyist for the California Federation of Teachers, said the language in the measure was too broad. He said the union would not object to a database that identifies only teachers with substantiated complaints of egregious misconduct, but the bill also states that reports of “possible misconduct” would be included. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Our opposition is really focused on making sure we’re looking at dangerous conduct that we can definitively say happened,” Brown said.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Muratsuchi, who pulled language for his bill directly from the previous effort by Republican Assemblymember Kate Sanchez, said his intent was for the database to focus on egregious misconduct reports that were substantiated and credible. Had he had more time, he said, he would have clarified the language through the legislative process and addressed the unions’ concerns. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Our opposition is really focused on making sure we’re looking at dangerous conduct that we can definitively say happened,” Brown said.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Muratsuchi, who pulled language for his bill directly from the previous effort by Republican Assemblymember Kate Sanchez, said his intent was for the database to focus on egregious misconduct reports that were substantiated and credible. Had he had more time, he said, he would have clarified the language through the legislative process and addressed the unions’ concerns. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But he introduced the bill with just weeks left in the legislative session. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Seth Bramble, a lobbyist for the California Teachers Association, the state’s most powerful teachers union, wrote in a statement that the proposed database would lead to “employment consequences for innocent teachers based on allegations later determined to be unfounded.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Seth Bramble, a lobbyist for the California Teachers Association, the state’s most powerful teachers union, wrote in a statement that the proposed database would lead to “employment consequences for innocent teachers based on allegations later determined to be unfounded.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“CTA unequivocally supports protecting students, ensuring that credible misconduct information is shared with prospective school employers, and preventing individuals who commit egregious misconduct from moving from school to school,” Bramble wrote.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“CTA unequivocally supports protecting students, ensuring that credible misconduct information is shared with prospective school employers, and preventing individuals who commit egregious misconduct from moving from school to school,” Bramble wrote.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Trump administration singled out teachers unions as obstructions to legislative reforms to protect children when it announced a national crackdown in July on how school districts handle accusations of sexual misconduct by teachers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Teachers’ unions’ demonstrated commitment to shield their members from disciplinary action for gross misconduct cannot trump basic moral and legal responsibilities to students and families,” Secretary of Education Linda McMahon wrote in the open letter to state school chiefs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090872/trump-administration-launches-crackdown-on-teacher-sexual-misconduct-following-kqed-propublica-investigation\">McMahon cited\u003c/a> KQED and ProPublica’s finding that California’s teacher licensing agency has not revoked the professional credentials of at least 67 educators who school districts determined had sexually harassed students or committed other sexual misconduct. At least 14 of those educators were rehired by other schools. That included Bay Area math teacher \u003ca href=\"https://www.propublica.org/article/california-fired-teacher-sexual-harassment\">Jason Agan, who two schools hired\u003c/a> despite having been fired after an independent panel determined he sexually harassed female students and massaged their shoulders after he’d been warned to stop. Agan was removed from the classroom the day after the story was published.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090872/trump-administration-launches-crackdown-on-teacher-sexual-misconduct-following-kqed-propublica-investigation\">McMahon cited\u003c/a> KQED and ProPublica’s finding that California’s teacher licensing agency has not revoked the professional credentials of at least 67 educators who school districts determined had sexually harassed students or committed other sexual misconduct. At least 14 of those educators were rehired by other schools. That included Bay Area math teacher \u003ca href=\"https://www.propublica.org/article/california-fired-teacher-sexual-harassment\">Jason Agan, who two schools hired\u003c/a> despite having been fired after an independent panel determined he sexually harassed female students and massaged their shoulders after he’d been warned to stop. Agan was removed from the classroom the day after the story was published.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A substitute replaced him for the remainder of the school year.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Agan has denied any sexual motivation in touching students and said during his dismissal hearing at his first school that he touched students only to offer them support.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Agan has denied any sexual motivation in touching students and said during his dismissal hearing at his first school that he touched students only to offer them support.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260324-ProPublica-CATeacherDiscipline-26-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093306\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260324-ProPublica-CATeacherDiscipline-26-BL_qed.jpg 1653w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260324-ProPublica-CATeacherDiscipline-26-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260324-ProPublica-CATeacherDiscipline-26-BL_qed-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A photo of teacher Jason Agan in the Rodriguez High School yearbook from 2005 at the Fairfield Civic Center Library in Fairfield, California, on March 24, 2026. Two schools hired Agan despite having been fired after an independent panel determined he sexually harassed female students and massaged their shoulders after he’d been warned to stop.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260324-ProPublica-CATeacherDiscipline-26-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093306\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A photo of teacher Jason Agan in the Rodriguez High School yearbook from 2005 at the Fairfield Civic Center Library in Fairfield, California, on March 24, 2026. Two schools hired Agan despite having been fired after an independent panel determined he sexually harassed female students and massaged their shoulders after he’d been warned to stop.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Commission on Teacher Credentialing, California’s educator licensing agency, joined the unions in objecting to the bill to add teachers to the misconduct database. Jonathon Howard, the government relations manager for the credentialing agency, told Muratsuchi in a June 19 email obtained by KQED and ProPublica that complying with the proposed legislation would “require Commission staff to commit crimes.” Howard cited state laws restricting what information the teacher licensing agency is allowed to share. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The Commission on Teacher Credentialing, California’s educator licensing agency, joined the unions in objecting to the bill to add teachers to the misconduct database. Jonathon Howard, the government relations manager for the credentialing agency, told Muratsuchi in a June 19 email obtained by KQED and ProPublica that complying with the proposed legislation would “require Commission staff to commit crimes.” Howard cited state laws restricting what information the teacher licensing agency is allowed to share. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Muratsuchi’s bill, Howard said, would expose the agency to “significant liability.” “The Commission does not oppose the goal of ensuring that credentialed educators with substantiated histories of serious misconduct cannot move undetected between schools,” Howard wrote. “However, achieving that goal requires legislation that is legally sound, operationally workable, and fair to the educators whose livelihoods and professional reputations are at stake.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Muratsuchi’s bill, Howard said, would expose the agency to “significant liability.” “The Commission does not oppose the goal of ensuring that credentialed educators with substantiated histories of serious misconduct cannot move undetected between schools,” Howard wrote. “However, achieving that goal requires legislation that is legally sound, operationally workable, and fair to the educators whose livelihoods and professional reputations are at stake.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Anita Fitzhugh, a spokesperson for the Commission on Teacher Credentialing, previously told KQED and ProPublica that the agency “stands ready to implement any additional public protections that the Legislature authorizes.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Anita Fitzhugh, a spokesperson for the Commission on Teacher Credentialing, previously told KQED and ProPublica that the agency “stands ready to implement any additional public protections that the Legislature authorizes.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Within weeks of introducing the bill and following opposition, Muratsuchi scrapped the idea of adding teachers reported to the state for egregious misconduct to the database and instead amended the bill to clarify that the teacher licensing agency may penalize administrators who don’t thoroughly vet applicants. The school administrators association withdrew its sponsorship.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Within weeks of introducing the bill and following opposition, Muratsuchi scrapped the idea of adding teachers reported to the state for egregious misconduct to the database and instead amended the bill to clarify that the teacher licensing agency may penalize administrators who don’t thoroughly vet applicants. The school administrators association withdrew its sponsorship.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Muratsuchi, whose term expires in December, said he still supports more access to information about educators disciplined for serious misconduct. But with the legislative session ending Aug. 31, time is running out.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Muratsuchi, whose term expires in December, said he still supports more access to information about educators disciplined for serious misconduct. But with the legislative session ending Aug. 31, time is running out.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I tried,” Muratsuchi said. “I hope future Legislatures pick up the ball.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "California is set to launch a database for school support staff, such as bus drivers and janitors, with substantiated claims of egregious misconduct. Setting up a similar system for public school teachers, however, is proving more complicated.",
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"title": "California Lawmakers Fail to Fix Warning System for Teacher Misconduct — Again | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>This article was produced for ProPublica’s Local Reporting Network in partnership with \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/\">\u003cem>KQED\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>. \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.propublica.org/newsletters/dispatches\">\u003cem>Sign up for Dispatches\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem> to get stories like this one as soon as they are published. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A last-ditch legislative attempt to help California school districts keep problematic teachers out of the classroom has collapsed following opposition from unions and the state teacher licensing agency that a proposed searchable database would violate privacy and subject educators to unfair treatment. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The proposed database, introduced by a Democratic member of the state Assembly in June, would have allowed schools to see if applicants for public school teaching positions had been reported to the state after they were fired or resigned over claims of misconduct. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The California Federation of Teachers pushed back, warning that teachers could land in the database even if schools had not determined they committed serious misconduct. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We would support legislation that targets substantiated reports of egregious misconduct,” said Tristan Brown, a lobbyist with the California Federation of Teachers. “We live in a state with Silicon Valley. The state should be able to support a system that is up to date and tracking substantiated reports of misconduct.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Democratic Assemblymember Al Muratsuchi had proposed to make it easier for schools to screen teacher applicants after a KQED-ProPublica investigation published in May. The news outlets revealed how delays and inaction, combined with a lack of transparency, allowed educators to get new jobs after school districts reported them to the state teacher licensing agency for sexual harassment or other misconduct.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-2231342591.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093325\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-2231342591.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-2231342591-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-2231342591-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">California Assemblymember Al Muratsuchi, a Democrat who introduced the teacher accountability bill, said his office was “confronted with a lot of resistance” over whether it would lead to unfair treatment of the accused. (Justin Sullivan/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A similar effort by Republican lawmakers to address the issue also hit roadblocks earlier this year. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“When the safety of a child does not meet a legislative priority, that’s a head-scratcher for me,” said Republican Assemblymember Tom Lackey, who co-authored the first attempt to create the teacher database. “I think being sympathetic to the offender is on the wrong side of this issue.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Both bills were modeled on a law the Legislature passed in 2025 mandating the creation of a database by next summer that will allow employers to search the names of school support staff, such as bus drivers, custodians and teaching assistants, who are under investigation by their schools or have substantiated complaints of egregious misconduct. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The database for school support staff passed after months of tense negotiations. Under that system, employees’ names would be removed from the database if school investigations fail to substantiate claims of egregious misconduct. The bill passed despite opposition from unions, but the system that will be put in place is still being refined. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But that law explicitly does not apply to public school teachers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The system currently in place for public school educators is a patchwork with a fair number of gaps. School districts have long been required to report to the state any teacher who is fired or who resigns due to misconduct. But the state’s teacher licensing agency, which collects all of those reports, is restricted by state law in what information the agency can share while it investigates. The state’s disciplinary process typically takes one year, and teachers could be hired during the investigation period without schools knowing about the claims against them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>California’s publicly accessible online database of credentialed educators does indicate, with a red-flag icon, whether those public school teachers have been disciplined by the state. But it does not explain the reason for the sanction or provide a link to any documents. It is only after the state licensing agency recommends an educator be disciplined that prospective employers can request a summary of the case and the agency’s findings.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Without such details, California school administrators must rely on teachers themselves or their previous employers to provide key information. A law passed in 2024 requires teacher candidates to share their complete job history in education and mandates that school districts ask every previous employer whether a candidate had been reported to the credentialing agency for credible or substantiated complaints of egregious misconduct. If so, previous schools must share the relevant information. But that law keeps bad actors out of schools only if teachers and schools keep — and provide — accurate records.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For more than a year, California school administrators have lobbied lawmakers for a better way to protect students from those with a history of misconduct. “A database is needed to provide more complete, timely information so that schools can fulfill their responsibility to put trusted adults in positions that work with students,” said Dorothy Johnson, a lobbyist with the Association of California School Administrators, whose members include superintendents, principals and human resources officials. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260318-ProPublica-CATeacherDiscipline-04-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093305\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260318-ProPublica-CATeacherDiscipline-04-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260318-ProPublica-CATeacherDiscipline-04-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260318-ProPublica-CATeacherDiscipline-04-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Committee of Credentials, a subcommittee of the California Commission on Teacher Credentialing, meets in Sacramento, California, on March 18, 2026, as part of three days of deliberations. The subcommittee reviews cases involving alleged educator misconduct. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Under \u003ca href=\"https://legiscan.com/CA/text/AB1381/id/3448036\">the original bill\u003c/a> authored by Muratsuchi and sponsored by the school administrators association, teachers would be added to a new database if their school districts have reported them to the state for misconduct. Before making job offers, schools would be required to check the database, accessible only to employers, for names of teachers with substantiated and credible complaints of egregious misconduct. Then, schools would be required to request records about misconduct from the districts that reported them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Muratsuchi said his office was “immediately confronted with a lot of resistance,” with teachers unions raising concerns over fair treatment of the accused. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Brown, the lobbyist for the California Federation of Teachers, said the language in the measure was too broad. He said the union would not object to a database that identifies only teachers with substantiated complaints of egregious misconduct, but the bill also states that reports of “possible misconduct” would be included. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Our opposition is really focused on making sure we’re looking at dangerous conduct that we can definitively say happened,” Brown said.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Muratsuchi, who pulled language for his bill directly from the previous effort by Republican Assemblymember Kate Sanchez, said his intent was for the database to focus on egregious misconduct reports that were substantiated and credible. Had he had more time, he said, he would have clarified the language through the legislative process and addressed the unions’ concerns. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But he introduced the bill with just weeks left in the legislative session. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Seth Bramble, a lobbyist for the California Teachers Association, the state’s most powerful teachers union, wrote in a statement that the proposed database would lead to “employment consequences for innocent teachers based on allegations later determined to be unfounded.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“CTA unequivocally supports protecting students, ensuring that credible misconduct information is shared with prospective school employers, and preventing individuals who commit egregious misconduct from moving from school to school,” Bramble wrote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Trump administration singled out teachers unions as obstructions to legislative reforms to protect children when it announced a national crackdown in July on how school districts handle accusations of sexual misconduct by teachers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Teachers’ unions’ demonstrated commitment to shield their members from disciplinary action for gross misconduct cannot trump basic moral and legal responsibilities to students and families,” Secretary of Education Linda McMahon wrote in the open letter to state school chiefs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090872/trump-administration-launches-crackdown-on-teacher-sexual-misconduct-following-kqed-propublica-investigation\">McMahon cited\u003c/a> KQED and ProPublica’s finding that California’s teacher licensing agency has not revoked the professional credentials of at least 67 educators who school districts determined had sexually harassed students or committed other sexual misconduct. At least 14 of those educators were rehired by other schools. That included Bay Area math teacher \u003ca href=\"https://www.propublica.org/article/california-fired-teacher-sexual-harassment\">Jason Agan, who two schools hired\u003c/a> despite having been fired after an independent panel determined he sexually harassed female students and massaged their shoulders after he’d been warned to stop. Agan was removed from the classroom the day after the story was published.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A substitute replaced him for the remainder of the school year.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Agan has denied any sexual motivation in touching students and said during his dismissal hearing at his first school that he touched students only to offer them support.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1653\" height=\"1103\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260324-ProPublica-CATeacherDiscipline-26-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093306\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260324-ProPublica-CATeacherDiscipline-26-BL_qed.jpg 1653w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260324-ProPublica-CATeacherDiscipline-26-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260324-ProPublica-CATeacherDiscipline-26-BL_qed-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1653px) 100vw, 1653px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A photo of teacher Jason Agan in the Rodriguez High School yearbook from 2005 at the Fairfield Civic Center Library in Fairfield, California, on March 24, 2026. Two schools hired Agan despite having been fired after an independent panel determined he sexually harassed female students and massaged their shoulders after he’d been warned to stop. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Commission on Teacher Credentialing, California’s educator licensing agency, joined the unions in objecting to the bill to add teachers to the misconduct database. Jonathon Howard, the government relations manager for the credentialing agency, told Muratsuchi in a June 19 email obtained by KQED and ProPublica that complying with the proposed legislation would “require Commission staff to commit crimes.” Howard cited state laws restricting what information the teacher licensing agency is allowed to share. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Muratsuchi’s bill, Howard said, would expose the agency to “significant liability.” “The Commission does not oppose the goal of ensuring that credentialed educators with substantiated histories of serious misconduct cannot move undetected between schools,” Howard wrote. “However, achieving that goal requires legislation that is legally sound, operationally workable, and fair to the educators whose livelihoods and professional reputations are at stake.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Anita Fitzhugh, a spokesperson for the Commission on Teacher Credentialing, previously told KQED and ProPublica that the agency “stands ready to implement any additional public protections that the Legislature authorizes.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Within weeks of introducing the bill and following opposition, Muratsuchi scrapped the idea of adding teachers reported to the state for egregious misconduct to the database and instead amended the bill to clarify that the teacher licensing agency may penalize administrators who don’t thoroughly vet applicants. The school administrators association withdrew its sponsorship.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Muratsuchi, whose term expires in December, said he still supports more access to information about educators disciplined for serious misconduct. But with the legislative session ending Aug. 31, time is running out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I tried,” Muratsuchi said. “I hope future Legislatures pick up the ball.” \u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "sonoma-state-to-relaunch-athletics-in-fall-2027-after-massive-cuts",
"title": "Sonoma State to Relaunch Athletics in Fall 2027 After Massive Cuts",
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"content": "\u003cp>Sonoma State University will reinstate most of its intercollegiate sports teams in 2027, less than two years after campus administrators \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12023598/sonoma-state-is-eliminating-athletics-slashing-several-degree-programs-to-cut-budget\">gutted the athletics program\u003c/a> amid a major budget deficit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The school announced Monday that it will restore 10 NCAA Division II teams next fall. The teams will include men’s and women’s soccer, cross country, basketball and golf, and women’s softball and volleyball, while baseball won’t return.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Reinstating Seawolf athletics demonstrates a meaningful commitment to current and future students, the campus community, alumni and our athletic and philanthropic partners in the North Bay and beyond,” Sonoma State’s Interim Athletics Director Joan McDermott said in a statement. “We are excited about the opportunity to compete again in the [California Collegiate Athletic Association] and to represent our community.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In January 2025, Sonoma State announced it would eliminate its entire athletic department, slash more than 20 degree programs and lay off dozens of faculty at the end of that year to eliminate a nearly $24 million budget deficit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250123_SonomaStateFile_GC-52.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12024036\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250123_SonomaStateFile_GC-52.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250123_SonomaStateFile_GC-52-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250123_SonomaStateFile_GC-52-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250123_SonomaStateFile_GC-52-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250123_SonomaStateFile_GC-52-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250123_SonomaStateFile_GC-52-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The soccer fields at Sonoma State University in Rohnert Park on Jan. 23, 2025. Sonoma State is cutting its entire Athletic Department, eliminating majors and laying off faculty to address a budget deficit. (Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The school has said the major cuts were part of a larger reimagining of university operations amid enrollment decline and funding losses. At the time, then-interim President Emily Cutrer said that the school was looking to invest in “career-focused” paths, including growing its nursing and health science programs, and attract more local students.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The move \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12023999/sonoma-state-players-coaches-blindsided-by-elimination-of-ncaa-athletics\">blindsided student-athletes\u003c/a> and coaching staff, and left many scrambling to find spots in other schools’ programs before the start of the 2025-26 academic year. Within weeks, there were massive campus-wide protests over the slate of cuts, and coaches and athletes launched the “\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12024188/sonoma-state-plans-to-cut-all-athletics-coaches-athletes-fighting-back\">Save Seawolves Athletics\u003c/a>” movement in an attempt to stop the elimination of sports.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The campaign filed a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12024188/sonoma-state-plans-to-cut-all-athletics-coaches-athletes-fighting-back\">federal civil rights complaint\u003c/a> with the U.S. Department of Education, alleging that eliminating athletics would have a disproportionate effect on underrepresented students and students of color. In March, seven student-athletes filed a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12036250/sonoma-states-deep-cuts-are-paused-by-judge-leaving-students-and-faculty-in-limbo\">lawsuit against SSU\u003c/a> and its leaders alleging that the rollout also violated California State University policy on discontinuing academic programs. Their suit is ongoing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In January, Sonoma State’s new president, Michael Spagna, announced that he would form an Athletics Fiscal Feasibility Team to evaluate whether it would be possible to sustain athletics long term. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a letter to the campus community on Monday, Spagna said that the group recommended establishing 10 athletic programs, the minimum number of teams required for NCAA and CCAA Division II membership, after five months of discussion. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The program will be funded by a combination of student fees, tuition revenue from new student-athletes, and state funding, among other sources. The California Legislature’s 2025 budget allocated a one-time $45 million investment to the campus “to support a long-term turnaround plan,” according to \u003ca href=\"https://ebudget.ca.gov/2025-26/pdf/Enacted/BudgetSummary/HigherEducation.pdf\">budget documents\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Former coaches praised the school’s decision to bring back the majority of their teams — even amid discontent over the process.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s been quite frustrating because it should never have gone away,” said Benjamin Ziemer, who was on the men’s soccer coaching staff for 10 years. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He said that the cuts were a result of “incredible mismanagement,” as the school cycled through five interim and short-lived university presidents. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They brought in a series of people that failed the school, and they embarked to change the makeup of the school. And unfortunately, they got it really wrong,” he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1306\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250123_SonomaStateFile_GC-30.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12024027\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250123_SonomaStateFile_GC-30.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250123_SonomaStateFile_GC-30-800x522.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250123_SonomaStateFile_GC-30-1020x666.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250123_SonomaStateFile_GC-30-160x104.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250123_SonomaStateFile_GC-30-1536x1003.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250123_SonomaStateFile_GC-30-1920x1254.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Students walk on campus at Sonoma State University in Rohnert Park on Jan. 23, 2025. (Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Spagna replaced Cutrer in January, and the school brought in McDermott in April.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ziemer, a soccer manager who has coached internationally, said despite the frustration, he hopes to help rebuild the soccer program — a bittersweet opportunity after his brother Marcus, who led the men’s team for 35 years and spearheaded efforts to save the program last year, passed away in a scootering accident in March. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I watched Marcus play at Sonoma State and a bunch of the alumni when I was a young boy, and then I played there, and then I coached there for 10 years with Marcus,” Ziemer said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s a part of our family, and I would love to assist the soccer program to come back as strong as it was before,” he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ziemer said he’s already heard from former players interested in returning to the school for their final season or a fifth year of eligibility if they’re able, and believes there are plenty of players to rebuild the teams. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One hurdle, he said, will be reestablishing trust with athletes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Will they assure people that this isn’t going to happen again?” Ziemer said. “Because if you’re somebody that’s looking to go to school for four or five years and play sports and it’s uncertain how long [the programs will run] or if they’re going to be messed with again, that could be a challenge for recruiting.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Val Verhunce, who was the head coach of both the men’s and women’s golf teams since their launches in 2003 and 2007, said he plans to reapply for his former role.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think the thing that’s exciting is that whatever I did in 2003, I think I can do better now, restarting,” he said. “I’m really excited, if that opportunity presents itself, that I could do a much better job.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Verhunce said the alumni he’s heard from since Monday’s announcement are excited to root for the Seawolves again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“All those athletes that I’ve coached, for all of our teams, not just golf, they’ll all have a place in history at Sonoma State,” he said. “It hasn’t been erased.”\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Reinstating Seawolf athletics demonstrates a meaningful commitment to current and future students, the campus community, alumni and our athletic and philanthropic partners in the North Bay and beyond,” Sonoma State’s Interim Athletics Director Joan McDermott said in a statement. “We are excited about the opportunity to compete again in the [California Collegiate Athletic Association] and to represent our community.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The move \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12023999/sonoma-state-players-coaches-blindsided-by-elimination-of-ncaa-athletics\">blindsided student-athletes\u003c/a> and coaching staff, and left many scrambling to find spots in other schools’ programs before the start of the 2025-26 academic year. Within weeks, there were massive campus-wide protests over the slate of cuts, and coaches and athletes launched the “\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12024188/sonoma-state-plans-to-cut-all-athletics-coaches-athletes-fighting-back\">Save Seawolves Athletics\u003c/a>” movement in an attempt to stop the elimination of sports.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The move \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12023999/sonoma-state-players-coaches-blindsided-by-elimination-of-ncaa-athletics\">blindsided student-athletes\u003c/a> and coaching staff, and left many scrambling to find spots in other schools’ programs before the start of the 2025-26 academic year. Within weeks, there were massive campus-wide protests over the slate of cuts, and coaches and athletes launched the “\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12024188/sonoma-state-plans-to-cut-all-athletics-coaches-athletes-fighting-back\">Save Seawolves Athletics\u003c/a>” movement in an attempt to stop the elimination of sports.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The campaign filed a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12024188/sonoma-state-plans-to-cut-all-athletics-coaches-athletes-fighting-back\">federal civil rights complaint\u003c/a> with the U.S. Department of Education, alleging that eliminating athletics would have a disproportionate effect on underrepresented students and students of color. In March, seven student-athletes filed a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12036250/sonoma-states-deep-cuts-are-paused-by-judge-leaving-students-and-faculty-in-limbo\">lawsuit against SSU\u003c/a> and its leaders alleging that the rollout also violated California State University policy on discontinuing academic programs. Their suit is ongoing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The campaign filed a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12024188/sonoma-state-plans-to-cut-all-athletics-coaches-athletes-fighting-back\">federal civil rights complaint\u003c/a> with the U.S. Department of Education, alleging that eliminating athletics would have a disproportionate effect on underrepresented students and students of color. In March, seven student-athletes filed a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12036250/sonoma-states-deep-cuts-are-paused-by-judge-leaving-students-and-faculty-in-limbo\">lawsuit against SSU\u003c/a> and its leaders alleging that the rollout also violated California State University policy on discontinuing academic programs. Their suit is ongoing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In January, Sonoma State’s new president, Michael Spagna, announced that he would form an Athletics Fiscal Feasibility Team to evaluate whether it would be possible to sustain athletics long term. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In a letter to the campus community on Monday, Spagna said that the group recommended establishing 10 athletic programs, the minimum number of teams required for NCAA and CCAA Division II membership, after five months of discussion. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In a letter to the campus community on Monday, Spagna said that the group recommended establishing 10 athletic programs, the minimum number of teams required for NCAA and CCAA Division II membership, after five months of discussion. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The program will be funded by a combination of student fees, tuition revenue from new student-athletes, and state funding, among other sources. The California Legislature’s 2025 budget allocated a one-time $45 million investment to the campus “to support a long-term turnaround plan,” according to \u003ca href=\"https://ebudget.ca.gov/2025-26/pdf/Enacted/BudgetSummary/HigherEducation.pdf\">budget documents\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The program will be funded by a combination of student fees, tuition revenue from new student-athletes, and state funding, among other sources. The California Legislature’s 2025 budget allocated a one-time $45 million investment to the campus “to support a long-term turnaround plan,” according to \u003ca href=\"https://ebudget.ca.gov/2025-26/pdf/Enacted/BudgetSummary/HigherEducation.pdf\">budget documents\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Former coaches praised the school’s decision to bring back the majority of their teams — even amid discontent over the process.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Spagna replaced Cutrer in January, and the school brought in McDermott in April.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ziemer, a soccer manager who has coached internationally, said despite the frustration, he hopes to help rebuild the soccer program — a bittersweet opportunity after his brother Marcus, who led the men’s team for 35 years and spearheaded efforts to save the program last year, passed away in a scootering accident in March. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ziemer said he’s already heard from former players interested in returning to the school for their final season or a fifth year of eligibility if they’re able, and believes there are plenty of players to rebuild the teams. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“All those athletes that I’ve coached, for all of our teams, not just golf, they’ll all have a place in history at Sonoma State,” he said. “It hasn’t been erased.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "The school announced plans to rejoin the California Collegiate Athletic Association, after a full year without sports on campus. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Sonoma State University will reinstate most of its intercollegiate sports teams in 2027, less than two years after campus administrators \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12023598/sonoma-state-is-eliminating-athletics-slashing-several-degree-programs-to-cut-budget\">gutted the athletics program\u003c/a> amid a major budget deficit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The school announced Monday that it will restore 10 NCAA Division II teams next fall. The teams will include men’s and women’s soccer, cross country, basketball and golf, and women’s softball and volleyball, while baseball won’t return.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Reinstating Seawolf athletics demonstrates a meaningful commitment to current and future students, the campus community, alumni and our athletic and philanthropic partners in the North Bay and beyond,” Sonoma State’s Interim Athletics Director Joan McDermott said in a statement. “We are excited about the opportunity to compete again in the [California Collegiate Athletic Association] and to represent our community.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In January 2025, Sonoma State announced it would eliminate its entire athletic department, slash more than 20 degree programs and lay off dozens of faculty at the end of that year to eliminate a nearly $24 million budget deficit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250123_SonomaStateFile_GC-52.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12024036\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250123_SonomaStateFile_GC-52.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250123_SonomaStateFile_GC-52-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250123_SonomaStateFile_GC-52-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250123_SonomaStateFile_GC-52-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250123_SonomaStateFile_GC-52-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250123_SonomaStateFile_GC-52-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The soccer fields at Sonoma State University in Rohnert Park on Jan. 23, 2025. Sonoma State is cutting its entire Athletic Department, eliminating majors and laying off faculty to address a budget deficit. (Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The school has said the major cuts were part of a larger reimagining of university operations amid enrollment decline and funding losses. At the time, then-interim President Emily Cutrer said that the school was looking to invest in “career-focused” paths, including growing its nursing and health science programs, and attract more local students.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The move \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12023999/sonoma-state-players-coaches-blindsided-by-elimination-of-ncaa-athletics\">blindsided student-athletes\u003c/a> and coaching staff, and left many scrambling to find spots in other schools’ programs before the start of the 2025-26 academic year. Within weeks, there were massive campus-wide protests over the slate of cuts, and coaches and athletes launched the “\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12024188/sonoma-state-plans-to-cut-all-athletics-coaches-athletes-fighting-back\">Save Seawolves Athletics\u003c/a>” movement in an attempt to stop the elimination of sports.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The campaign filed a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12024188/sonoma-state-plans-to-cut-all-athletics-coaches-athletes-fighting-back\">federal civil rights complaint\u003c/a> with the U.S. Department of Education, alleging that eliminating athletics would have a disproportionate effect on underrepresented students and students of color. In March, seven student-athletes filed a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12036250/sonoma-states-deep-cuts-are-paused-by-judge-leaving-students-and-faculty-in-limbo\">lawsuit against SSU\u003c/a> and its leaders alleging that the rollout also violated California State University policy on discontinuing academic programs. Their suit is ongoing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In January, Sonoma State’s new president, Michael Spagna, announced that he would form an Athletics Fiscal Feasibility Team to evaluate whether it would be possible to sustain athletics long term. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a letter to the campus community on Monday, Spagna said that the group recommended establishing 10 athletic programs, the minimum number of teams required for NCAA and CCAA Division II membership, after five months of discussion. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The program will be funded by a combination of student fees, tuition revenue from new student-athletes, and state funding, among other sources. The California Legislature’s 2025 budget allocated a one-time $45 million investment to the campus “to support a long-term turnaround plan,” according to \u003ca href=\"https://ebudget.ca.gov/2025-26/pdf/Enacted/BudgetSummary/HigherEducation.pdf\">budget documents\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Former coaches praised the school’s decision to bring back the majority of their teams — even amid discontent over the process.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s been quite frustrating because it should never have gone away,” said Benjamin Ziemer, who was on the men’s soccer coaching staff for 10 years. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He said that the cuts were a result of “incredible mismanagement,” as the school cycled through five interim and short-lived university presidents. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They brought in a series of people that failed the school, and they embarked to change the makeup of the school. And unfortunately, they got it really wrong,” he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1306\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250123_SonomaStateFile_GC-30.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12024027\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250123_SonomaStateFile_GC-30.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250123_SonomaStateFile_GC-30-800x522.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250123_SonomaStateFile_GC-30-1020x666.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250123_SonomaStateFile_GC-30-160x104.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250123_SonomaStateFile_GC-30-1536x1003.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250123_SonomaStateFile_GC-30-1920x1254.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Students walk on campus at Sonoma State University in Rohnert Park on Jan. 23, 2025. (Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Spagna replaced Cutrer in January, and the school brought in McDermott in April.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ziemer, a soccer manager who has coached internationally, said despite the frustration, he hopes to help rebuild the soccer program — a bittersweet opportunity after his brother Marcus, who led the men’s team for 35 years and spearheaded efforts to save the program last year, passed away in a scootering accident in March. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I watched Marcus play at Sonoma State and a bunch of the alumni when I was a young boy, and then I played there, and then I coached there for 10 years with Marcus,” Ziemer said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s a part of our family, and I would love to assist the soccer program to come back as strong as it was before,” he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ziemer said he’s already heard from former players interested in returning to the school for their final season or a fifth year of eligibility if they’re able, and believes there are plenty of players to rebuild the teams. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One hurdle, he said, will be reestablishing trust with athletes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Will they assure people that this isn’t going to happen again?” Ziemer said. “Because if you’re somebody that’s looking to go to school for four or five years and play sports and it’s uncertain how long [the programs will run] or if they’re going to be messed with again, that could be a challenge for recruiting.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Val Verhunce, who was the head coach of both the men’s and women’s golf teams since their launches in 2003 and 2007, said he plans to reapply for his former role.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think the thing that’s exciting is that whatever I did in 2003, I think I can do better now, restarting,” he said. “I’m really excited, if that opportunity presents itself, that I could do a much better job.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Verhunce said the alumni he’s heard from since Monday’s announcement are excited to root for the Seawolves again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“All those athletes that I’ve coached, for all of our teams, not just golf, they’ll all have a place in history at Sonoma State,” he said. “It hasn’t been erased.”\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>In May 2020, the University of California regents \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11820185/uc-admissions-to-phase-out-sat-and-act-requirement\">voted\u003c/a> unanimously to phase out the SAT and ACT as admission requirements. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Considered a rite of passage in high school \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/education/530951/should-colleges-still-require-the-sats-and-acts\">since the 1940s\u003c/a> for students planning to continue their education, the standardized tests were also \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/education/530951/should-colleges-still-require-the-sats-and-acts\">long criticized\u003c/a> as insufficient predictors of college performance and discriminatory to low-income students who didn’t have the same access to test-prep materials and classes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The UC system wasn’t alone. At the end of 2021, Harvard University announced it would waive \u003ca href=\"https://www.cbsnews.com/news/harvard-test-optional-sat-act-scores-college-admission/\">the testing requirement through 2026.\u003c/a> Institutions like \u003ca href=\"https://www.nyu.edu/admissions/undergraduate-admissions/how-to-apply/standardized-tests.html\">New York University\u003c/a>, the \u003ca href=\"https://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/apply/application/required-materials/\">University of Chicago\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://admissions.nd.edu/apply/\">Notre Dame University\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://admissions.northwestern.edu/faqs/standardized-testing-policy/\">Northwestern University\u003c/a> are all currently test-optional for this application cycle. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1331\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/021822-UCLA-Campus-File-RN-CM-45-copy.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11996136\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/021822-UCLA-Campus-File-RN-CM-45-copy.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/021822-UCLA-Campus-File-RN-CM-45-copy-800x532.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/021822-UCLA-Campus-File-RN-CM-45-copy-1020x679.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/021822-UCLA-Campus-File-RN-CM-45-copy-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/021822-UCLA-Campus-File-RN-CM-45-copy-1536x1022.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/021822-UCLA-Campus-File-RN-CM-45-copy-1920x1278.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The UCLA campus in Los Angeles on Feb. 18, 2022. \u003cbr> (Raquel Natalicchio for CalMatters)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But tides are shifting for these schools — and possibly for the UCs, too. Over the summer, more than 3,000 faculty members at University of California schools have signed \u003ca href=\"https://ucstudentsuccess.org/\">a pair of open letters\u003c/a> supporting admissions testing. \u003ca href=\"https://ucstudentsuccess.org/\">One letter\u003c/a> — signed by more than 2,300 people — called for the return of the mathematics test for STEM majors, saying that testing is a “critical baseline” and “a common external check that students have the core mathematical fluency required for university-level STEM coursework.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The SAT/ACT mathematics requirement is not an obstacle to equity; rather, it is a prerequisite for it,” the letter reads. “Failing to measure preparation gaps does not remove barriers; it moves them into the classroom, where they become harder to overcome.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">What fairness looks like\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>2020 was also a year when the country was in the middle of a “racial justice reckoning” after \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/george-floyd\">the killing of George Floyd by police officers\u003c/a>, explained \u003cem>Berkeleyside \u003c/em>higher education reporter Felicia Mello on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101914438/should-the-ucs-reinstate-the-sat\">KQED’s Forum\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There was a lot of discussion about equity happening,” Mello said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She also added that a year prior, \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2020/09/30/914061484/lies-money-and-cheating-the-deeper-story-of-the-college-admissions-scandal\">the infamous Varsity Blues college admissions scandal\u003c/a> took place, in which federal authorities cracked down on wealthy parents who had been cheating the application process through bribes and rigged standardized test scores. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/240125-UC-REGENTS-UNDOCUMENTED-WORK-MD-11-KQED.jpg?ver=1706236237\" alt=\"A bald person with glasses speaks into a microphone at a long table.\" class=\"wp-image-11973813\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/240125-UC-REGENTS-UNDOCUMENTED-WORK-MD-11-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/240125-UC-REGENTS-UNDOCUMENTED-WORK-MD-11-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/240125-UC-REGENTS-UNDOCUMENTED-WORK-MD-11-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/240125-UC-REGENTS-UNDOCUMENTED-WORK-MD-11-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/240125-UC-REGENTS-UNDOCUMENTED-WORK-MD-11-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/240125-UC-REGENTS-UNDOCUMENTED-WORK-MD-11-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">UC President Michael Drake (center) announces the UC Board of Regents’ vote not to consider a proposal to allow the university to hire undocumented students at a UC Board of Regents meeting at the UCSF Mission Bay Conference Center on Jan. 25, 2024. (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The Board of Regents then took the decision first to go test-optional and eventually ended up going completely test-blind, and that’s the situation that we’ve been in since then,” Mello said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>However, after the UCs went test-optional in 2020, “we saw students thoroughly unprepared to take math in college,” said co-author of the STEM faculty letter, Mina Aganagic — a professor of mathematics and physics at UC Berkeley.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We’re not saying that these kids didn’t take pre-calc or calc or they haven’t mastered that,” she argued. “The issue is at a much, much earlier level. Students who struggle with material that’s taught in elementary and middle school.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“And for those students, helping them learn calculus is really literally an impossible task,” she said. “So it was heartbreaking seeing so many students struggle.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://ucstudentsuccess.org/socscihum/\">other letter\u003c/a> — signed by more than 900 people — argued for bringing back the reading and writing portion of the SAT and ACT, echoing similar sentiments from STEM faculty members. The humanities faculty members also remarked on \u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/teachers-are-not-ok-ai-chatgpt/\">the rise of AI use among students\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“As artificial intelligence becomes more capable, it is arguably more important than ever for students to be able to think through and compose sound arguments on their own, to comprehend the texts they read and to recognize weaknesses in the arguments of those texts,” the social sciences letter reads. “The growing use of AI also makes essays a less reliable indicator of these abilities.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>However, critics of the SAT and ACT requirements emphasize the disadvantage under-resourced students face and note that the letter’s signatories are a small portion of the large UC faculty.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The problem was that the SAT itself was basically a test that was really about assessing someone’s socioeconomic status,” said Lisa Holder, an \u003ca href=\"https://equaljusticesociety.org/\">Equal Justice Society\u003c/a> civil rights attorney who helped \u003ca href=\"https://publiccounsel.org/our-cases/smith-v-regents-of-university-of-california/\">file a lawsuit\u003c/a> to end the use of SAT and ACT in UC admissions, which ended in a settlement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1469\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1366973965.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092383\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1366973965.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1366973965-160x119.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1366973965-1536x1140.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Close-up of a pencil on a page of an SAT college entrance exam preparation book, taken on Aug., 6, 2017, in Melville, New York. (Thomas A. Ferrara/Newsday RM via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The metric that that test actually excelled at measuring was your access to test prep. And that is correlated to wealth,” she said. “This is one snapshot, a day in the life of an individual, as opposed to four years of a high-performing, high-achieving student who is striving.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Stephanie, a high school teacher at a college prep school, wrote into Forum saying she was against reinstating the SAT.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I see how much time and money the wealthy students at my school spend on test prep, and it’s egregious,” she said. “The test prep courses and private tutors don’t teach students the material. They teach them how to game the system.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Another listener, who said they are a UC Merced professor, wrote on Forum’s Discord channel that many of the signatures came from “faculty at the three most selective campuses like Berkeley, UCLA and San Diego.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We educate a much higher share of students who need remedial math or writing,” they wrote. “Instead of trying to weed those students out, our approach has been to provide them with additional support and help them catch up.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1129\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/11/UCMerced11.jpg\" alt=\"A sign marking the entrance to UC Merced.\" class=\"wp-image-10747399\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/11/UCMerced11.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/11/UCMerced11-400x235.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/11/UCMerced11-800x470.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/11/UCMerced11-1440x847.jpg 1440w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/11/UCMerced11-1180x694.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/11/UCMerced11-960x565.jpg 960w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A sign marking the entrance to UC Merced. (Lance Johnson/Flickr)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>However, an audience member who said they were a math tutor for two decades also pointed out that “kids trying to learn calculus couldn’t add two fractions efficiently, so I stopped tutoring calculus altogether. It was too much hassle. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you wish to compete in the world, boost standards. Universities are not designed for remedial education.” Another told Forum that as a Northern California teacher who worked in \u003ca href=\"https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-is-standards-based-grading-and-how-does-it-work/2024/09\">a standards-based grading school\u003c/a>, “All of my co-teachers agreed that this made grades very inflated. Students graduated shockingly ill-prepared for college, but their grades looked great.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Read on to learn more about Forum’s conversation with experts and reporters on the debate around standardized testing in California’s public higher education system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This interview has been edited for brevity and clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The Arguments for Standardized Testing \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim: What are professors who signed the letter seeing in classrooms?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Aganagic\u003c/strong>: You’d see enormous amounts of stress on the students. You’d see students who try to take the class three times, and they’re failing again. And they say, “I’ve done everything,” and they have done everything. But the task put in front of them is to cover a multi-year gap in one college calculus class together with 400 to 700 other students. It is simply impossible. It’s sort of like I asked you to climb a wall with no footholds at all. A mathematical genius could not do that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why is standardized testing the best way to measure that readiness for college-level work?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>First, most of the SAT actually focuses on the kind of math that’s taught in middle school. I don’t mean acing it, but you will be able to do all right. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The other absolutely crucial thing to understand is how UC uses the SAT. UC was never providing a linear ranking of students and then saying, “We’ll take those with top SAT scores.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What we will do is the following: Let’s say you take two students from a poor Black neighborhood. They’re going to the same high school. We have grade inflation. Both of these kids ace their math class. And we have to pick one. How are you going to pick? Right now, if we have to pick one, it’s going to be a random choice. In fact, Berkeley doesn’t even take teachers’ recommendations into account. What we are asking for is, “Give us the SAT score.” It will allow us to make an informed choice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1385\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-860780.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092386\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-860780.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-860780-160x112.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-860780-1536x1074.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">SAT preparation books sit on a shelf at a Barnes and Noble store June 27, 2002 in New York City. (Mario Tama/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>There’s also the \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://smarterbalanced.org/our-system/students-and-families/samples/\">\u003cstrong>Smarter Balanced Test\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong> that all California public high school juniors have to take. Would that be a reliable measure?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Certainly having something would be better than having nothing at all. But one problem is purely technical — test problems leaking. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And right now, Smarter Balanced is intended to assess how schools are doing. It’s not designed as a high-stakes test. And converting it to one would require huge resources just to achieve the same thing the SAT is already doing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What do you say to critics of standardized testing, who say scores track closely with income and racial disparities? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Every measure we have, including Smarter Balanced, already has in it, baked, these inequities. There’s just simply no way around it. The SAT is no better, no worse than any other measure we had. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the crucial thing is what washes them out is how we use the SAT. We are not comparing a kid from an affluent background to a low-income student and saying, “Compare their SAT scores.” No, we compare students who are alike in every other respect. In other words, the SAT becomes one part of a student’s file. And when we cannot decide between two students who are completely alike in every other respect, it’s a much more informed choice than throwing a die, which is deeply unfair. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Didn’t the pandemic — and remote schooling — also have a hand in dropping performances? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The overall level of math preparedness has been declining. Nobody’s questioning that. But what we are seeing here is a population of students at the very lowest level of preparedness. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Usually what you see is kind of a bell curve. And when you’re talking about overall level shifting, you’re talking about this bell curve kind of shifting. But what we are seeing is the bell curve — it becomes kind of a U-shape. You see students who are acing our classes and students who’re hopelessly failing, and there’s nothing in the middle. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1320\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/GettyImages-2230923952.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12088396\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/GettyImages-2230923952.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/GettyImages-2230923952-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/GettyImages-2230923952-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">California State University, Northridge on Friday, Aug. 22, 2025. (Myung J. Chun/Los Angeles Times via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Couldn’t the UCs support these students through remedial college courses?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re pouring a lot into remediation. However, there are certain sizes of gaps that you simply cannot fill. They just become too large. If you are asking to fill a gap from elementary and middle school, it’s just hopeless. For those students, it would take years of work in college to catch up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And California has this beautiful master plan for higher education: of community colleges, the CSUs and the UCs and pathways between them. So a student who is not as well-prepared could have a real path upward: you could go to a community college, take remedial classes and then transfer to UC. You’re not placed into this classroom where you simply have no way of succeeding because your task was impossible. It is not your failure. It’s the failure of a whole system, and we should not propagate this. We should use the SAT as a placement to put kids in the right places, to give them ladders they can climb up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>The Arguments Against Standardized Testing \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim: What was the lawsuit filed against the UCs?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lisa Holder: \u003c/strong>In 2019, \u003ca href=\"https://equaljusticesociety.org/\">Equal Justice Society\u003c/a> — along with several private and public firms in a case called Smith v. UC Regents — sued the University of California for continuing to use the SAT and the ACT as a principal criteria for UC admissions when, in fact, the social science showed that the standardized tests, particularly the SAT and the ACT, were not the best metric for assessing a student’s college readiness, even though they purported to be that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The best metric, according to social scientists and psychometricians, was a student’s high school performance. Basically the classes that they took for four years. What did their teachers say about them, their student evaluations, their extracurriculars, their sports, their community involvement? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What was heartbreaking was seeing the clients we had in the Smith case who were incredible students. Many of them were students of color, disabled students and students that did not have a lot of money. And so they had no access to test prep, but they were straight A students. We had a student who had been living in his car for four years, yet he was a straight A student. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Some would argue that accessibility to test-prep has improved thanks to online resources like Khan Academy. \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s completely speculative. We haven’t had the test for five years, and there’s no requirement under any settlement to bring that test back. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What we should be doing is looking at the data that is right in front of us. And the data is what tells us that the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ucop.edu/institutional-research-academic-planning/_files/admissions-outcomes-and-performance.pdf\">UC’s own studies conducted by the board\u003c/a> established that students admitted in the last five years under the test-free policy are equally — if not more — qualified and prepared than the previous students. And that this test-free policy is much more aligned with the UC’s mission, which is to offer high-quality, publicly funded education to California’s best students, not its wealthiest students. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is a publicly funded university system, and everyone, regardless of income, is paying taxes to fund it. All high-performing California students should be able to access this school without obstruction from a gatekeeper test calibrated to measure for wealth rather than excellence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What do you say in response to concerns being raised by professors like Aganagic? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The achievement lapses that folks may be seeing are much more likely attributable to this generation’s addiction to mobile phones and their scattered focus, their literacy deficits and sort of shrinking attention spans caused by mobile phone usage and AI addiction. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s a much larger systemic problem that we have to start to think about pedagogically in all of our schools. Also, what we’re seeing in this cohort of students is also largely impacted by the missed learning opportunities that they experienced during COVID. Some students were out of school for a year and a half, and so I’m sure that their math preparation may have suffered. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And frankly, we have a lot of really lackluster curricula around STEM in our high schools. And so, students may not be excelling as much as they could be if we were to modernize our systems and sort of keep up with what’s going on globally around STEM. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/GenericClassroomGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12050458\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/GenericClassroomGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/GenericClassroomGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/GenericClassroomGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Back view of large group of students sitting in the classroom and listening to their teacher. (Skynesher/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Behind the Testing Debate\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim: What have some of the effects been of waiving the test requirement?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Felicia Mello: \u003c/strong>UC’s data actually showed that they saw a big bump in applications right after going test-optional. In the first year, applications went up about 19%. And you also start to see a slight increase in diversity of both the people who are applying and the people who are getting in. In terms of performance, the official UC stats don’t show a huge difference. They show that persistence — meaning students who remained in college from the first year to the second year — was largely flat during that time. First-year GPAs ticked down very slightly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I am really just speaking to kind of what we saw right after the change went into effect in 2021. But the picture painted by the overall UC data is not as grim as the one that is being put forward by faculty on some campuses. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>How would you characterize the support for the faculty letters? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We have about 3,000 UC faculty out of roughly 26,000 who have signed on to one of these letters, either the letter from STEM faculty or the letter from social sciences and humanities faculty. We have seen the STEM faculty be much more out front on this. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The social sciences and humanities faculty who have come out in favor of this mentioned that having a good quantitative background is also important for social science classes like economics. There also is clearly some concern around students’ writing skills — that the rise of AI has made it harder to tell, even from students’ applications, whether they’re writing them themselves, and it also just has the potential to constrain what students are learning in terms of writing and communication in general. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The UC Berkeley math faculty — who had really been pushing via this open letter for the return of the SAT — had done their own analysis of numbers in introductory calculus classes. And they found that between 2021 and 2023, after UC got rid of the SAT and admissions, there was a big jump in students who were severely underprepared for that introductory calculus course. But unfortunately, because we only have those three years of data, they weren’t giving the same test prior to or after that. It is a bit hard to put that data in context. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Supporters of reinstating the requirement say that the tests would be used in a holistic approach. How true is that?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The UC actually does consider 13 different factors in admissions currently, even separate from test scores. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Not just your high school GPA, but how you’re doing relative to other students in your class. It looks at the types of life circumstances you’ve had, your geographic location. Have you had a recent improvement in your performance? What kinds of rigorous courses have you taken? Have you taken AP courses? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s another factor here, which is the broader political environment, and I think there’s a concern that even if the UC brings back the test, there will be pressure then on the UC to focus more narrowly on the task and abandon some of the more holistic aspects of its review. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Trump administration has certainly been pressuring universities to not pay much attention to the diversity of their classes and not intentionally try to enroll a diverse student body. There’s a concern that this could be seized on by outside actors to try and do an analysis of the university’s admission policies that would focus really narrowly on those test scores. Now, whether that actually happens would remain to be seen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Equity advocates have also said in the past that, for different reasons, even if you go test-optional, it’s still sending a signal whether those students choose to submit their scores or not, and that could still affect their application.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The Next Steps\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim: The UC is saying that they will study and make a decision on whether to bring back the testing requirement a year from now. How likely is it that they will bring it back?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mello: \u003c/strong>This is something that was actually in the works even before these open letters. We’ve seen a number of factors that have changed since 2020: We have seen shifts in AI and how it affects the application process. Some of those concerns related to the pandemic are no longer there in the same way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s a lot of pressure to make this decision more quickly. The Faculty Senate had laid out this process of coming to a recommendation by fall 2027. The faculty had originally laid out a plan: They said, we’re going to study this, and the earliest that we could make a decision under this very detailed road map would be for people who are applying in fall of 2028.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They have since rescinded that detailed timeline. All we know at this point is that they’re going to make their recommendation by June. That creates some potential anxiety for this year’s incoming high school juniors. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Who decides to bring back standardized testing?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The regents will really make the ultimate call on this. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The most interesting part of the regents meeting was the chair of the Board of Regents saying that she really felt like the public discussion around this has been too narrowly focused on standardized testing and that the university really needs to take a broader look at what it means to be ready for college in 2026. So this will include things like looking at the high school courses that UC requires people to have when they’re applying. Right now, there’s not a requirement for computer science or any other technology-related course. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s really an appetite for looking at these things more broadly. The regents are looking at, “How do we both maintain that reputation for excellence?” But also do what they are intending to do as a state university and make sure that access to the university is based on hard work and aptitude as opposed to just how much wealth your family has. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1485\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1056629578.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092389\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1056629578.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1056629578-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1056629578-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Standardized test company logo seen displayed on smartphone. (Igor Golovniov/SOPA Images/LightRocket via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Is there a middle ground option for standardized testing?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There are some universities and colleges that are using the SAT more for placement purposes after people get in. So they’re essentially saying, “We don’t require this for admissions, but we either require or strongly encourage you to share scores after you get in so that we can help figure out if you’re going to be in the right math class for you.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One of the things that I observe during the course of this reporting is that placement practices for math classes really vary across UC. It’s an extremely diverse system. I spoke with the math chair at UC Santa Barbara who did not sign on to this open letter in support of bringing back the SAT, and he was saying that when we identify students who may not be prepared for our introductory calculus classes, we make sure we flag that early on. We make sure that they are going to community college, and getting the kind of remedial preparation that they need, and then coming back, and those students tend to succeed in our classes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Wouldn’t the effects of the pandemic also be a major factor in student performance?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Essentially, there’s nobody I interviewed on either side that said, “Oh, we’re not dealing with any pandemic-related learning deficiencies.” There’s broad acknowledgment that our students are struggling in various ways since the pandemic, and something needs to be done. And the question is, what is the best response? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We know it’s not just all about the pandemic, because instead of seeing everybody equally struggling, we’re seeing this concentration on both ends where some people are doing really well, some people are really struggling, and that middle category of student is dropping out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some researchers I talked to said that that’s really what you would expect from the impact of the pandemic because the pandemic impacted students differently. Some of them have the peace and quiet they need to study and a reliable Wi-Fi connection, and others do not. \u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In May 2020, the University of California regents \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11820185/uc-admissions-to-phase-out-sat-and-act-requirement\">voted\u003c/a> unanimously to phase out the SAT and ACT as admission requirements. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Considered a rite of passage in high school \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/education/530951/should-colleges-still-require-the-sats-and-acts\">since the 1940s\u003c/a> for students planning to continue their education, the standardized tests were also \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/education/530951/should-colleges-still-require-the-sats-and-acts\">long criticized\u003c/a> as insufficient predictors of college performance and discriminatory to low-income students who didn’t have the same access to test-prep materials and classes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Considered a rite of passage in high school \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/education/530951/should-colleges-still-require-the-sats-and-acts\">since the 1940s\u003c/a> for students planning to continue their education, the standardized tests were also \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/education/530951/should-colleges-still-require-the-sats-and-acts\">long criticized\u003c/a> as insufficient predictors of college performance and discriminatory to low-income students who didn’t have the same access to test-prep materials and classes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The UC system wasn’t alone. At the end of 2021, Harvard University announced it would waive \u003ca href=\"https://www.cbsnews.com/news/harvard-test-optional-sat-act-scores-college-admission/\">the testing requirement through 2026.\u003c/a> Institutions like \u003ca href=\"https://www.nyu.edu/admissions/undergraduate-admissions/how-to-apply/standardized-tests.html\">New York University\u003c/a>, the \u003ca href=\"https://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/apply/application/required-materials/\">University of Chicago\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://admissions.nd.edu/apply/\">Notre Dame University\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://admissions.northwestern.edu/faqs/standardized-testing-policy/\">Northwestern University\u003c/a> are all currently test-optional for this application cycle. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The UC system wasn’t alone. At the end of 2021, Harvard University announced it would waive \u003ca href=\"https://www.cbsnews.com/news/harvard-test-optional-sat-act-scores-college-admission/\">the testing requirement through 2026.\u003c/a> Institutions like \u003ca href=\"https://www.nyu.edu/admissions/undergraduate-admissions/how-to-apply/standardized-tests.html\">New York University\u003c/a>, the \u003ca href=\"https://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/apply/application/required-materials/\">University of Chicago\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://admissions.nd.edu/apply/\">Notre Dame University\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://admissions.northwestern.edu/faqs/standardized-testing-policy/\">Northwestern University\u003c/a> are all currently test-optional for this application cycle. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/021822-UCLA-Campus-File-RN-CM-45-copy.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11996136\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/021822-UCLA-Campus-File-RN-CM-45-copy.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/021822-UCLA-Campus-File-RN-CM-45-copy-800x532.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/021822-UCLA-Campus-File-RN-CM-45-copy-1020x679.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/021822-UCLA-Campus-File-RN-CM-45-copy-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/021822-UCLA-Campus-File-RN-CM-45-copy-1536x1022.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/021822-UCLA-Campus-File-RN-CM-45-copy-1920x1278.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The UCLA campus in Los Angeles on Feb. 18, 2022. \u003cbr>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/021822-UCLA-Campus-File-RN-CM-45-copy.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11996136\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The UCLA campus in Los Angeles on Feb. 18, 2022. \u003cbr>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But tides are shifting for these schools — and possibly for the UCs, too. Over the summer, more than 3,000 faculty members at University of California schools have signed \u003ca href=\"https://ucstudentsuccess.org/\">a pair of open letters\u003c/a> supporting admissions testing. \u003ca href=\"https://ucstudentsuccess.org/\">One letter\u003c/a> — signed by more than 2,300 people — called for the return of the mathematics test for STEM majors, saying that testing is a “critical baseline” and “a common external check that students have the core mathematical fluency required for university-level STEM coursework.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But tides are shifting for these schools — and possibly for the UCs, too. Over the summer, more than 3,000 faculty members at University of California schools have signed \u003ca href=\"https://ucstudentsuccess.org/\">a pair of open letters\u003c/a> supporting admissions testing. \u003ca href=\"https://ucstudentsuccess.org/\">One letter\u003c/a> — signed by more than 2,300 people — called for the return of the mathematics test for STEM majors, saying that testing is a “critical baseline” and “a common external check that students have the core mathematical fluency required for university-level STEM coursework.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The SAT/ACT mathematics requirement is not an obstacle to equity; rather, it is a prerequisite for it,” the letter reads. “Failing to measure preparation gaps does not remove barriers; it moves them into the classroom, where they become harder to overcome.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“The SAT/ACT mathematics requirement is not an obstacle to equity; rather, it is a prerequisite for it,” the letter reads. “Failing to measure preparation gaps does not remove barriers; it moves them into the classroom, where they become harder to overcome.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "What fairness looks like",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>2020 was also a year when the country was in the middle of a “racial justice reckoning” after \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/george-floyd\">the killing of George Floyd by police officers\u003c/a>, explained \u003cem>Berkeleyside \u003c/em>higher education reporter Felicia Mello on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101914438/should-the-ucs-reinstate-the-sat\">KQED’s Forum\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>2020 was also a year when the country was in the middle of a “racial justice reckoning” after \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/george-floyd\">the killing of George Floyd by police officers\u003c/a>, explained \u003cem>Berkeleyside \u003c/em>higher education reporter Felicia Mello on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101914438/should-the-ucs-reinstate-the-sat\">KQED’s Forum\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“There was a lot of discussion about equity happening,” Mello said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“There was a lot of discussion about equity happening,” Mello said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>She also added that a year prior, \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2020/09/30/914061484/lies-money-and-cheating-the-deeper-story-of-the-college-admissions-scandal\">the infamous Varsity Blues college admissions scandal\u003c/a> took place, in which federal authorities cracked down on wealthy parents who had been cheating the application process through bribes and rigged standardized test scores. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>She also added that a year prior, \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2020/09/30/914061484/lies-money-and-cheating-the-deeper-story-of-the-college-admissions-scandal\">the infamous Varsity Blues college admissions scandal\u003c/a> took place, in which federal authorities cracked down on wealthy parents who had been cheating the application process through bribes and rigged standardized test scores. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/240125-UC-REGENTS-UNDOCUMENTED-WORK-MD-11-KQED.jpg?ver=1706236237\" alt=\"A bald person with glasses speaks into a microphone at a long table.\" class=\"wp-image-11973813\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/240125-UC-REGENTS-UNDOCUMENTED-WORK-MD-11-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/240125-UC-REGENTS-UNDOCUMENTED-WORK-MD-11-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/240125-UC-REGENTS-UNDOCUMENTED-WORK-MD-11-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/240125-UC-REGENTS-UNDOCUMENTED-WORK-MD-11-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/240125-UC-REGENTS-UNDOCUMENTED-WORK-MD-11-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/240125-UC-REGENTS-UNDOCUMENTED-WORK-MD-11-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">UC President Michael Drake (center) announces the UC Board of Regents’ vote not to consider a proposal to allow the university to hire undocumented students at a UC Board of Regents meeting at the UCSF Mission Bay Conference Center on Jan. 25, 2024.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/240125-UC-REGENTS-UNDOCUMENTED-WORK-MD-11-KQED.jpg?ver=1706236237\" alt=\"A bald person with glasses speaks into a microphone at a long table.\" class=\"wp-image-11973813\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">UC President Michael Drake (center) announces the UC Board of Regents’ vote not to consider a proposal to allow the university to hire undocumented students at a UC Board of Regents meeting at the UCSF Mission Bay Conference Center on Jan. 25, 2024.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The Board of Regents then took the decision first to go test-optional and eventually ended up going completely test-blind, and that’s the situation that we’ve been in since then,” Mello said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“The Board of Regents then took the decision first to go test-optional and eventually ended up going completely test-blind, and that’s the situation that we’ve been in since then,” Mello said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>However, after the UCs went test-optional in 2020, “we saw students thoroughly unprepared to take math in college,” said co-author of the STEM faculty letter, Mina Aganagic — a professor of mathematics and physics at UC Berkeley.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We’re not saying that these kids didn’t take pre-calc or calc or they haven’t mastered that,” she argued. “The issue is at a much, much earlier level. Students who struggle with material that’s taught in elementary and middle school.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“We’re not saying that these kids didn’t take pre-calc or calc or they haven’t mastered that,” she argued. “The issue is at a much, much earlier level. Students who struggle with material that’s taught in elementary and middle school.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“And for those students, helping them learn calculus is really literally an impossible task,” she said. “So it was heartbreaking seeing so many students struggle.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://ucstudentsuccess.org/socscihum/\">other letter\u003c/a> — signed by more than 900 people — argued for bringing back the reading and writing portion of the SAT and ACT, echoing similar sentiments from STEM faculty members. The humanities faculty members also remarked on \u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/teachers-are-not-ok-ai-chatgpt/\">the rise of AI use among students\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://ucstudentsuccess.org/socscihum/\">other letter\u003c/a> — signed by more than 900 people — argued for bringing back the reading and writing portion of the SAT and ACT, echoing similar sentiments from STEM faculty members. The humanities faculty members also remarked on \u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/teachers-are-not-ok-ai-chatgpt/\">the rise of AI use among students\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“As artificial intelligence becomes more capable, it is arguably more important than ever for students to be able to think through and compose sound arguments on their own, to comprehend the texts they read and to recognize weaknesses in the arguments of those texts,” the social sciences letter reads. “The growing use of AI also makes essays a less reliable indicator of these abilities.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“As artificial intelligence becomes more capable, it is arguably more important than ever for students to be able to think through and compose sound arguments on their own, to comprehend the texts they read and to recognize weaknesses in the arguments of those texts,” the social sciences letter reads. “The growing use of AI also makes essays a less reliable indicator of these abilities.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>However, critics of the SAT and ACT requirements emphasize the disadvantage under-resourced students face and note that the letter’s signatories are a small portion of the large UC faculty.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The problem was that the SAT itself was basically a test that was really about assessing someone’s socioeconomic status,” said Lisa Holder, an \u003ca href=\"https://equaljusticesociety.org/\">Equal Justice Society\u003c/a> civil rights attorney who helped \u003ca href=\"https://publiccounsel.org/our-cases/smith-v-regents-of-university-of-california/\">file a lawsuit\u003c/a> to end the use of SAT and ACT in UC admissions, which ended in a settlement.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“The problem was that the SAT itself was basically a test that was really about assessing someone’s socioeconomic status,” said Lisa Holder, an \u003ca href=\"https://equaljusticesociety.org/\">Equal Justice Society\u003c/a> civil rights attorney who helped \u003ca href=\"https://publiccounsel.org/our-cases/smith-v-regents-of-university-of-california/\">file a lawsuit\u003c/a> to end the use of SAT and ACT in UC admissions, which ended in a settlement.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The metric that that test actually excelled at measuring was your access to test prep. And that is correlated to wealth,” she said. “This is one snapshot, a day in the life of an individual, as opposed to four years of a high-performing, high-achieving student who is striving.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“The metric that that test actually excelled at measuring was your access to test prep. And that is correlated to wealth,” she said. “This is one snapshot, a day in the life of an individual, as opposed to four years of a high-performing, high-achieving student who is striving.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Stephanie, a high school teacher at a college prep school, wrote into Forum saying she was against reinstating the SAT.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I see how much time and money the wealthy students at my school spend on test prep, and it’s egregious,” she said. “The test prep courses and private tutors don’t teach students the material. They teach them how to game the system.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I see how much time and money the wealthy students at my school spend on test prep, and it’s egregious,” she said. “The test prep courses and private tutors don’t teach students the material. They teach them how to game the system.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Another listener, who said they are a UC Merced professor, wrote on Forum’s Discord channel that many of the signatures came from “faculty at the three most selective campuses like Berkeley, UCLA and San Diego.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Another listener, who said they are a UC Merced professor, wrote on Forum’s Discord channel that many of the signatures came from “faculty at the three most selective campuses like Berkeley, UCLA and San Diego.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We educate a much higher share of students who need remedial math or writing,” they wrote. “Instead of trying to weed those students out, our approach has been to provide them with additional support and help them catch up.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“We educate a much higher share of students who need remedial math or writing,” they wrote. “Instead of trying to weed those students out, our approach has been to provide them with additional support and help them catch up.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>However, an audience member who said they were a math tutor for two decades also pointed out that “kids trying to learn calculus couldn’t add two fractions efficiently, so I stopped tutoring calculus altogether. It was too much hassle. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>However, an audience member who said they were a math tutor for two decades also pointed out that “kids trying to learn calculus couldn’t add two fractions efficiently, so I stopped tutoring calculus altogether. It was too much hassle. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you wish to compete in the world, boost standards. Universities are not designed for remedial education.” Another told Forum that as a Northern California teacher who worked in \u003ca href=\"https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-is-standards-based-grading-and-how-does-it-work/2024/09\">a standards-based grading school\u003c/a>, “All of my co-teachers agreed that this made grades very inflated. Students graduated shockingly ill-prepared for college, but their grades looked great.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>If you wish to compete in the world, boost standards. Universities are not designed for remedial education.” Another told Forum that as a Northern California teacher who worked in \u003ca href=\"https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-is-standards-based-grading-and-how-does-it-work/2024/09\">a standards-based grading school\u003c/a>, “All of my co-teachers agreed that this made grades very inflated. Students graduated shockingly ill-prepared for college, but their grades looked great.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Read on to learn more about Forum’s conversation with experts and reporters on the debate around standardized testing in California’s public higher education system.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Read on to learn more about Forum’s conversation with experts and reporters on the debate around standardized testing in California’s public higher education system.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This interview has been edited for brevity and clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"text": "The Arguments for Standardized Testing ",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim: What are professors who signed the letter seeing in classrooms?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim: What are professors who signed the letter seeing in classrooms?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Aganagic\u003c/strong>: You’d see enormous amounts of stress on the students. You’d see students who try to take the class three times, and they’re failing again. And they say, “I’ve done everything,” and they have done everything. But the task put in front of them is to cover a multi-year gap in one college calculus class together with 400 to 700 other students. It is simply impossible. It’s sort of like I asked you to climb a wall with no footholds at all. A mathematical genius could not do that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Aganagic\u003c/strong>: You’d see enormous amounts of stress on the students. You’d see students who try to take the class three times, and they’re failing again. And they say, “I’ve done everything,” and they have done everything. But the task put in front of them is to cover a multi-year gap in one college calculus class together with 400 to 700 other students. It is simply impossible. It’s sort of like I asked you to climb a wall with no footholds at all. A mathematical genius could not do that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why is standardized testing the best way to measure that readiness for college-level work?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why is standardized testing the best way to measure that readiness for college-level work?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>First, most of the SAT actually focuses on the kind of math that’s taught in middle school. I don’t mean acing it, but you will be able to do all right. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The other absolutely crucial thing to understand is how UC uses the SAT. UC was never providing a linear ranking of students and then saying, “We’ll take those with top SAT scores.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The other absolutely crucial thing to understand is how UC uses the SAT. UC was never providing a linear ranking of students and then saying, “We’ll take those with top SAT scores.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What we will do is the following: Let’s say you take two students from a poor Black neighborhood. They’re going to the same high school. We have grade inflation. Both of these kids ace their math class. And we have to pick one. How are you going to pick? Right now, if we have to pick one, it’s going to be a random choice. In fact, Berkeley doesn’t even take teachers’ recommendations into account. What we are asking for is, “Give us the SAT score.” It will allow us to make an informed choice. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What we will do is the following: Let’s say you take two students from a poor Black neighborhood. They’re going to the same high school. We have grade inflation. Both of these kids ace their math class. And we have to pick one. How are you going to pick? Right now, if we have to pick one, it’s going to be a random choice. In fact, Berkeley doesn’t even take teachers’ recommendations into account. What we are asking for is, “Give us the SAT score.” It will allow us to make an informed choice. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-860780.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092386\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-860780.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-860780-160x112.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-860780-1536x1074.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">SAT preparation books sit on a shelf at a Barnes and Noble store June 27, 2002 in New York City.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>There’s also the \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://smarterbalanced.org/our-system/students-and-families/samples/\">\u003cstrong>Smarter Balanced Test\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong> that all California public high school juniors have to take. Would that be a reliable measure?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>There’s also the \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://smarterbalanced.org/our-system/students-and-families/samples/\">\u003cstrong>Smarter Balanced Test\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong> that all California public high school juniors have to take. Would that be a reliable measure?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Certainly having something would be better than having nothing at all. But one problem is purely technical — test problems leaking. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Certainly having something would be better than having nothing at all. But one problem is purely technical — test problems leaking. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And right now, Smarter Balanced is intended to assess how schools are doing. It’s not designed as a high-stakes test. And converting it to one would require huge resources just to achieve the same thing the SAT is already doing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And right now, Smarter Balanced is intended to assess how schools are doing. It’s not designed as a high-stakes test. And converting it to one would require huge resources just to achieve the same thing the SAT is already doing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What do you say to critics of standardized testing, who say scores track closely with income and racial disparities? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Every measure we have, including Smarter Balanced, already has in it, baked, these inequities. There’s just simply no way around it. The SAT is no better, no worse than any other measure we had. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Every measure we have, including Smarter Balanced, already has in it, baked, these inequities. There’s just simply no way around it. The SAT is no better, no worse than any other measure we had. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But the crucial thing is what washes them out is how we use the SAT. We are not comparing a kid from an affluent background to a low-income student and saying, “Compare their SAT scores.” No, we compare students who are alike in every other respect. In other words, the SAT becomes one part of a student’s file. And when we cannot decide between two students who are completely alike in every other respect, it’s a much more informed choice than throwing a die, which is deeply unfair. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But the crucial thing is what washes them out is how we use the SAT. We are not comparing a kid from an affluent background to a low-income student and saying, “Compare their SAT scores.” No, we compare students who are alike in every other respect. In other words, the SAT becomes one part of a student’s file. And when we cannot decide between two students who are completely alike in every other respect, it’s a much more informed choice than throwing a die, which is deeply unfair. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Didn’t the pandemic — and remote schooling — also have a hand in dropping performances? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The overall level of math preparedness has been declining. Nobody’s questioning that. But what we are seeing here is a population of students at the very lowest level of preparedness. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The overall level of math preparedness has been declining. Nobody’s questioning that. But what we are seeing here is a population of students at the very lowest level of preparedness. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Usually what you see is kind of a bell curve. And when you’re talking about overall level shifting, you’re talking about this bell curve kind of shifting. But what we are seeing is the bell curve — it becomes kind of a U-shape. You see students who are acing our classes and students who’re hopelessly failing, and there’s nothing in the middle. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Usually what you see is kind of a bell curve. And when you’re talking about overall level shifting, you’re talking about this bell curve kind of shifting. But what we are seeing is the bell curve — it becomes kind of a U-shape. You see students who are acing our classes and students who’re hopelessly failing, and there’s nothing in the middle. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/GettyImages-2230923952.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12088396\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/GettyImages-2230923952.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/GettyImages-2230923952-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/GettyImages-2230923952-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">California State University, Northridge on Friday, Aug. 22, 2025.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/GettyImages-2230923952.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12088396\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">California State University, Northridge on Friday, Aug. 22, 2025.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Couldn’t the UCs support these students through remedial college courses?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Couldn’t the UCs support these students through remedial college courses?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’re pouring a lot into remediation. However, there are certain sizes of gaps that you simply cannot fill. They just become too large. If you are asking to fill a gap from elementary and middle school, it’s just hopeless. For those students, it would take years of work in college to catch up. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We’re pouring a lot into remediation. However, there are certain sizes of gaps that you simply cannot fill. They just become too large. If you are asking to fill a gap from elementary and middle school, it’s just hopeless. For those students, it would take years of work in college to catch up. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And California has this beautiful master plan for higher education: of community colleges, the CSUs and the UCs and pathways between them. So a student who is not as well-prepared could have a real path upward: you could go to a community college, take remedial classes and then transfer to UC. You’re not placed into this classroom where you simply have no way of succeeding because your task was impossible. It is not your failure. It’s the failure of a whole system, and we should not propagate this. We should use the SAT as a placement to put kids in the right places, to give them ladders they can climb up. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And California has this beautiful master plan for higher education: of community colleges, the CSUs and the UCs and pathways between them. So a student who is not as well-prepared could have a real path upward: you could go to a community college, take remedial classes and then transfer to UC. You’re not placed into this classroom where you simply have no way of succeeding because your task was impossible. It is not your failure. It’s the failure of a whole system, and we should not propagate this. We should use the SAT as a placement to put kids in the right places, to give them ladders they can climb up. \u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "The Arguments Against Standardized Testing ",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>The Arguments Against Standardized Testing \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim: What was the lawsuit filed against the UCs?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim: What was the lawsuit filed against the UCs?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lisa Holder: \u003c/strong>In 2019, \u003ca href=\"https://equaljusticesociety.org/\">Equal Justice Society\u003c/a> — along with several private and public firms in a case called Smith v. UC Regents — sued the University of California for continuing to use the SAT and the ACT as a principal criteria for UC admissions when, in fact, the social science showed that the standardized tests, particularly the SAT and the ACT, were not the best metric for assessing a student’s college readiness, even though they purported to be that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lisa Holder: \u003c/strong>In 2019, \u003ca href=\"https://equaljusticesociety.org/\">Equal Justice Society\u003c/a> — along with several private and public firms in a case called Smith v. UC Regents — sued the University of California for continuing to use the SAT and the ACT as a principal criteria for UC admissions when, in fact, the social science showed that the standardized tests, particularly the SAT and the ACT, were not the best metric for assessing a student’s college readiness, even though they purported to be that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The best metric, according to social scientists and psychometricians, was a student’s high school performance. Basically the classes that they took for four years. What did their teachers say about them, their student evaluations, their extracurriculars, their sports, their community involvement? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The best metric, according to social scientists and psychometricians, was a student’s high school performance. Basically the classes that they took for four years. What did their teachers say about them, their student evaluations, their extracurriculars, their sports, their community involvement? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What was heartbreaking was seeing the clients we had in the Smith case who were incredible students. Many of them were students of color, disabled students and students that did not have a lot of money. And so they had no access to test prep, but they were straight A students. We had a student who had been living in his car for four years, yet he was a straight A student. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What was heartbreaking was seeing the clients we had in the Smith case who were incredible students. Many of them were students of color, disabled students and students that did not have a lot of money. And so they had no access to test prep, but they were straight A students. We had a student who had been living in his car for four years, yet he was a straight A student. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Some would argue that accessibility to test-prep has improved thanks to online resources like Khan Academy. \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Some would argue that accessibility to test-prep has improved thanks to online resources like Khan Academy. \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That’s completely speculative. We haven’t had the test for five years, and there’s no requirement under any settlement to bring that test back. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That’s completely speculative. We haven’t had the test for five years, and there’s no requirement under any settlement to bring that test back. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What we should be doing is looking at the data that is right in front of us. And the data is what tells us that the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ucop.edu/institutional-research-academic-planning/_files/admissions-outcomes-and-performance.pdf\">UC’s own studies conducted by the board\u003c/a> established that students admitted in the last five years under the test-free policy are equally — if not more — qualified and prepared than the previous students. And that this test-free policy is much more aligned with the UC’s mission, which is to offer high-quality, publicly funded education to California’s best students, not its wealthiest students. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What we should be doing is looking at the data that is right in front of us. And the data is what tells us that the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ucop.edu/institutional-research-academic-planning/_files/admissions-outcomes-and-performance.pdf\">UC’s own studies conducted by the board\u003c/a> established that students admitted in the last five years under the test-free policy are equally — if not more — qualified and prepared than the previous students. And that this test-free policy is much more aligned with the UC’s mission, which is to offer high-quality, publicly funded education to California’s best students, not its wealthiest students. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is a publicly funded university system, and everyone, regardless of income, is paying taxes to fund it. All high-performing California students should be able to access this school without obstruction from a gatekeeper test calibrated to measure for wealth rather than excellence. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is a publicly funded university system, and everyone, regardless of income, is paying taxes to fund it. All high-performing California students should be able to access this school without obstruction from a gatekeeper test calibrated to measure for wealth rather than excellence. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What do you say in response to concerns being raised by professors like Aganagic? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The achievement lapses that folks may be seeing are much more likely attributable to this generation’s addiction to mobile phones and their scattered focus, their literacy deficits and sort of shrinking attention spans caused by mobile phone usage and AI addiction. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The achievement lapses that folks may be seeing are much more likely attributable to this generation’s addiction to mobile phones and their scattered focus, their literacy deficits and sort of shrinking attention spans caused by mobile phone usage and AI addiction. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That’s a much larger systemic problem that we have to start to think about pedagogically in all of our schools. Also, what we’re seeing in this cohort of students is also largely impacted by the missed learning opportunities that they experienced during COVID. Some students were out of school for a year and a half, and so I’m sure that their math preparation may have suffered. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That’s a much larger systemic problem that we have to start to think about pedagogically in all of our schools. Also, what we’re seeing in this cohort of students is also largely impacted by the missed learning opportunities that they experienced during COVID. Some students were out of school for a year and a half, and so I’m sure that their math preparation may have suffered. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And frankly, we have a lot of really lackluster curricula around STEM in our high schools. And so, students may not be excelling as much as they could be if we were to modernize our systems and sort of keep up with what’s going on globally around STEM. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And frankly, we have a lot of really lackluster curricula around STEM in our high schools. And so, students may not be excelling as much as they could be if we were to modernize our systems and sort of keep up with what’s going on globally around STEM. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim: What have some of the effects been of waiving the test requirement?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim: What have some of the effects been of waiving the test requirement?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Felicia Mello: \u003c/strong>UC’s data actually showed that they saw a big bump in applications right after going test-optional. In the first year, applications went up about 19%. And you also start to see a slight increase in diversity of both the people who are applying and the people who are getting in. In terms of performance, the official UC stats don’t show a huge difference. They show that persistence — meaning students who remained in college from the first year to the second year — was largely flat during that time. First-year GPAs ticked down very slightly. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Felicia Mello: \u003c/strong>UC’s data actually showed that they saw a big bump in applications right after going test-optional. In the first year, applications went up about 19%. And you also start to see a slight increase in diversity of both the people who are applying and the people who are getting in. In terms of performance, the official UC stats don’t show a huge difference. They show that persistence — meaning students who remained in college from the first year to the second year — was largely flat during that time. First-year GPAs ticked down very slightly. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I am really just speaking to kind of what we saw right after the change went into effect in 2021. But the picture painted by the overall UC data is not as grim as the one that is being put forward by faculty on some campuses. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I am really just speaking to kind of what we saw right after the change went into effect in 2021. But the picture painted by the overall UC data is not as grim as the one that is being put forward by faculty on some campuses. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>How would you characterize the support for the faculty letters? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We have about 3,000 UC faculty out of roughly 26,000 who have signed on to one of these letters, either the letter from STEM faculty or the letter from social sciences and humanities faculty. We have seen the STEM faculty be much more out front on this. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We have about 3,000 UC faculty out of roughly 26,000 who have signed on to one of these letters, either the letter from STEM faculty or the letter from social sciences and humanities faculty. We have seen the STEM faculty be much more out front on this. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The social sciences and humanities faculty who have come out in favor of this mentioned that having a good quantitative background is also important for social science classes like economics. There also is clearly some concern around students’ writing skills — that the rise of AI has made it harder to tell, even from students’ applications, whether they’re writing them themselves, and it also just has the potential to constrain what students are learning in terms of writing and communication in general. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The social sciences and humanities faculty who have come out in favor of this mentioned that having a good quantitative background is also important for social science classes like economics. There also is clearly some concern around students’ writing skills — that the rise of AI has made it harder to tell, even from students’ applications, whether they’re writing them themselves, and it also just has the potential to constrain what students are learning in terms of writing and communication in general. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The UC Berkeley math faculty — who had really been pushing via this open letter for the return of the SAT — had done their own analysis of numbers in introductory calculus classes. And they found that between 2021 and 2023, after UC got rid of the SAT and admissions, there was a big jump in students who were severely underprepared for that introductory calculus course. But unfortunately, because we only have those three years of data, they weren’t giving the same test prior to or after that. It is a bit hard to put that data in context. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The UC Berkeley math faculty — who had really been pushing via this open letter for the return of the SAT — had done their own analysis of numbers in introductory calculus classes. And they found that between 2021 and 2023, after UC got rid of the SAT and admissions, there was a big jump in students who were severely underprepared for that introductory calculus course. But unfortunately, because we only have those three years of data, they weren’t giving the same test prior to or after that. It is a bit hard to put that data in context. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Supporters of reinstating the requirement say that the tests would be used in a holistic approach. How true is that?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Supporters of reinstating the requirement say that the tests would be used in a holistic approach. How true is that?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The UC actually does consider 13 different factors in admissions currently, even separate from test scores. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The UC actually does consider 13 different factors in admissions currently, even separate from test scores. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Not just your high school GPA, but how you’re doing relative to other students in your class. It looks at the types of life circumstances you’ve had, your geographic location. Have you had a recent improvement in your performance? What kinds of rigorous courses have you taken? Have you taken AP courses? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Not just your high school GPA, but how you’re doing relative to other students in your class. It looks at the types of life circumstances you’ve had, your geographic location. Have you had a recent improvement in your performance? What kinds of rigorous courses have you taken? Have you taken AP courses? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There’s another factor here, which is the broader political environment, and I think there’s a concern that even if the UC brings back the test, there will be pressure then on the UC to focus more narrowly on the task and abandon some of the more holistic aspects of its review. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There’s another factor here, which is the broader political environment, and I think there’s a concern that even if the UC brings back the test, there will be pressure then on the UC to focus more narrowly on the task and abandon some of the more holistic aspects of its review. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Trump administration has certainly been pressuring universities to not pay much attention to the diversity of their classes and not intentionally try to enroll a diverse student body. There’s a concern that this could be seized on by outside actors to try and do an analysis of the university’s admission policies that would focus really narrowly on those test scores. Now, whether that actually happens would remain to be seen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Equity advocates have also said in the past that, for different reasons, even if you go test-optional, it’s still sending a signal whether those students choose to submit their scores or not, and that could still affect their application.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim: The UC is saying that they will study and make a decision on whether to bring back the testing requirement a year from now. How likely is it that they will bring it back?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim: The UC is saying that they will study and make a decision on whether to bring back the testing requirement a year from now. How likely is it that they will bring it back?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mello: \u003c/strong>This is something that was actually in the works even before these open letters. We’ve seen a number of factors that have changed since 2020: We have seen shifts in AI and how it affects the application process. Some of those concerns related to the pandemic are no longer there in the same way. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mello: \u003c/strong>This is something that was actually in the works even before these open letters. We’ve seen a number of factors that have changed since 2020: We have seen shifts in AI and how it affects the application process. Some of those concerns related to the pandemic are no longer there in the same way. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There’s a lot of pressure to make this decision more quickly. The Faculty Senate had laid out this process of coming to a recommendation by fall 2027. The faculty had originally laid out a plan: They said, we’re going to study this, and the earliest that we could make a decision under this very detailed road map would be for people who are applying in fall of 2028.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There’s a lot of pressure to make this decision more quickly. The Faculty Senate had laid out this process of coming to a recommendation by fall 2027. The faculty had originally laid out a plan: They said, we’re going to study this, and the earliest that we could make a decision under this very detailed road map would be for people who are applying in fall of 2028.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They have since rescinded that detailed timeline. All we know at this point is that they’re going to make their recommendation by June. That creates some potential anxiety for this year’s incoming high school juniors. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>They have since rescinded that detailed timeline. All we know at this point is that they’re going to make their recommendation by June. That creates some potential anxiety for this year’s incoming high school juniors. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Who decides to bring back standardized testing?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The regents will really make the ultimate call on this. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The most interesting part of the regents meeting was the chair of the Board of Regents saying that she really felt like the public discussion around this has been too narrowly focused on standardized testing and that the university really needs to take a broader look at what it means to be ready for college in 2026. So this will include things like looking at the high school courses that UC requires people to have when they’re applying. Right now, there’s not a requirement for computer science or any other technology-related course. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The most interesting part of the regents meeting was the chair of the Board of Regents saying that she really felt like the public discussion around this has been too narrowly focused on standardized testing and that the university really needs to take a broader look at what it means to be ready for college in 2026. So this will include things like looking at the high school courses that UC requires people to have when they’re applying. Right now, there’s not a requirement for computer science or any other technology-related course. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There’s really an appetite for looking at these things more broadly. The regents are looking at, “How do we both maintain that reputation for excellence?” But also do what they are intending to do as a state university and make sure that access to the university is based on hard work and aptitude as opposed to just how much wealth your family has. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There’s really an appetite for looking at these things more broadly. The regents are looking at, “How do we both maintain that reputation for excellence?” But also do what they are intending to do as a state university and make sure that access to the university is based on hard work and aptitude as opposed to just how much wealth your family has. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Is there a middle ground option for standardized testing?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There are some universities and colleges that are using the SAT more for placement purposes after people get in. So they’re essentially saying, “We don’t require this for admissions, but we either require or strongly encourage you to share scores after you get in so that we can help figure out if you’re going to be in the right math class for you.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There are some universities and colleges that are using the SAT more for placement purposes after people get in. So they’re essentially saying, “We don’t require this for admissions, but we either require or strongly encourage you to share scores after you get in so that we can help figure out if you’re going to be in the right math class for you.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>One of the things that I observe during the course of this reporting is that placement practices for math classes really vary across UC. It’s an extremely diverse system. I spoke with the math chair at UC Santa Barbara who did not sign on to this open letter in support of bringing back the SAT, and he was saying that when we identify students who may not be prepared for our introductory calculus classes, we make sure we flag that early on. We make sure that they are going to community college, and getting the kind of remedial preparation that they need, and then coming back, and those students tend to succeed in our classes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>One of the things that I observe during the course of this reporting is that placement practices for math classes really vary across UC. It’s an extremely diverse system. I spoke with the math chair at UC Santa Barbara who did not sign on to this open letter in support of bringing back the SAT, and he was saying that when we identify students who may not be prepared for our introductory calculus classes, we make sure we flag that early on. We make sure that they are going to community college, and getting the kind of remedial preparation that they need, and then coming back, and those students tend to succeed in our classes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Wouldn’t the effects of the pandemic also be a major factor in student performance?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Essentially, there’s nobody I interviewed on either side that said, “Oh, we’re not dealing with any pandemic-related learning deficiencies.” There’s broad acknowledgment that our students are struggling in various ways since the pandemic, and something needs to be done. And the question is, what is the best response? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Essentially, there’s nobody I interviewed on either side that said, “Oh, we’re not dealing with any pandemic-related learning deficiencies.” There’s broad acknowledgment that our students are struggling in various ways since the pandemic, and something needs to be done. And the question is, what is the best response? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We know it’s not just all about the pandemic, because instead of seeing everybody equally struggling, we’re seeing this concentration on both ends where some people are doing really well, some people are really struggling, and that middle category of student is dropping out.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We know it’s not just all about the pandemic, because instead of seeing everybody equally struggling, we’re seeing this concentration on both ends where some people are doing really well, some people are really struggling, and that middle category of student is dropping out.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some researchers I talked to said that that’s really what you would expect from the impact of the pandemic because the pandemic impacted students differently. Some of them have the peace and quiet they need to study and a reliable Wi-Fi connection, and others do not. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Some researchers I talked to said that that’s really what you would expect from the impact of the pandemic because the pandemic impacted students differently. Some of them have the peace and quiet they need to study and a reliable Wi-Fi connection, and others do not. \u003c/p>\n"
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"excerpt": "In 2020, the University of California regents voted unanimously to phase out the SAT and ACT as admission requirements. Over 3,000 faculty members are asking for it to come back.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>In May 2020, the University of California regents \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11820185/uc-admissions-to-phase-out-sat-and-act-requirement\">voted\u003c/a> unanimously to phase out the SAT and ACT as admission requirements. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Considered a rite of passage in high school \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/education/530951/should-colleges-still-require-the-sats-and-acts\">since the 1940s\u003c/a> for students planning to continue their education, the standardized tests were also \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/education/530951/should-colleges-still-require-the-sats-and-acts\">long criticized\u003c/a> as insufficient predictors of college performance and discriminatory to low-income students who didn’t have the same access to test-prep materials and classes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The UC system wasn’t alone. At the end of 2021, Harvard University announced it would waive \u003ca href=\"https://www.cbsnews.com/news/harvard-test-optional-sat-act-scores-college-admission/\">the testing requirement through 2026.\u003c/a> Institutions like \u003ca href=\"https://www.nyu.edu/admissions/undergraduate-admissions/how-to-apply/standardized-tests.html\">New York University\u003c/a>, the \u003ca href=\"https://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/apply/application/required-materials/\">University of Chicago\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://admissions.nd.edu/apply/\">Notre Dame University\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://admissions.northwestern.edu/faqs/standardized-testing-policy/\">Northwestern University\u003c/a> are all currently test-optional for this application cycle. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1331\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/021822-UCLA-Campus-File-RN-CM-45-copy.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11996136\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/021822-UCLA-Campus-File-RN-CM-45-copy.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/021822-UCLA-Campus-File-RN-CM-45-copy-800x532.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/021822-UCLA-Campus-File-RN-CM-45-copy-1020x679.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/021822-UCLA-Campus-File-RN-CM-45-copy-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/021822-UCLA-Campus-File-RN-CM-45-copy-1536x1022.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/021822-UCLA-Campus-File-RN-CM-45-copy-1920x1278.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The UCLA campus in Los Angeles on Feb. 18, 2022. \u003cbr> (Raquel Natalicchio for CalMatters)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But tides are shifting for these schools — and possibly for the UCs, too. Over the summer, more than 3,000 faculty members at University of California schools have signed \u003ca href=\"https://ucstudentsuccess.org/\">a pair of open letters\u003c/a> supporting admissions testing. \u003ca href=\"https://ucstudentsuccess.org/\">One letter\u003c/a> — signed by more than 2,300 people — called for the return of the mathematics test for STEM majors, saying that testing is a “critical baseline” and “a common external check that students have the core mathematical fluency required for university-level STEM coursework.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The SAT/ACT mathematics requirement is not an obstacle to equity; rather, it is a prerequisite for it,” the letter reads. “Failing to measure preparation gaps does not remove barriers; it moves them into the classroom, where they become harder to overcome.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">What fairness looks like\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>2020 was also a year when the country was in the middle of a “racial justice reckoning” after \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/george-floyd\">the killing of George Floyd by police officers\u003c/a>, explained \u003cem>Berkeleyside \u003c/em>higher education reporter Felicia Mello on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101914438/should-the-ucs-reinstate-the-sat\">KQED’s Forum\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There was a lot of discussion about equity happening,” Mello said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She also added that a year prior, \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2020/09/30/914061484/lies-money-and-cheating-the-deeper-story-of-the-college-admissions-scandal\">the infamous Varsity Blues college admissions scandal\u003c/a> took place, in which federal authorities cracked down on wealthy parents who had been cheating the application process through bribes and rigged standardized test scores. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/240125-UC-REGENTS-UNDOCUMENTED-WORK-MD-11-KQED.jpg?ver=1706236237\" alt=\"A bald person with glasses speaks into a microphone at a long table.\" class=\"wp-image-11973813\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/240125-UC-REGENTS-UNDOCUMENTED-WORK-MD-11-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/240125-UC-REGENTS-UNDOCUMENTED-WORK-MD-11-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/240125-UC-REGENTS-UNDOCUMENTED-WORK-MD-11-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/240125-UC-REGENTS-UNDOCUMENTED-WORK-MD-11-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/240125-UC-REGENTS-UNDOCUMENTED-WORK-MD-11-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/01/240125-UC-REGENTS-UNDOCUMENTED-WORK-MD-11-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">UC President Michael Drake (center) announces the UC Board of Regents’ vote not to consider a proposal to allow the university to hire undocumented students at a UC Board of Regents meeting at the UCSF Mission Bay Conference Center on Jan. 25, 2024. (Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The Board of Regents then took the decision first to go test-optional and eventually ended up going completely test-blind, and that’s the situation that we’ve been in since then,” Mello said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>However, after the UCs went test-optional in 2020, “we saw students thoroughly unprepared to take math in college,” said co-author of the STEM faculty letter, Mina Aganagic — a professor of mathematics and physics at UC Berkeley.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We’re not saying that these kids didn’t take pre-calc or calc or they haven’t mastered that,” she argued. “The issue is at a much, much earlier level. Students who struggle with material that’s taught in elementary and middle school.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“And for those students, helping them learn calculus is really literally an impossible task,” she said. “So it was heartbreaking seeing so many students struggle.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://ucstudentsuccess.org/socscihum/\">other letter\u003c/a> — signed by more than 900 people — argued for bringing back the reading and writing portion of the SAT and ACT, echoing similar sentiments from STEM faculty members. The humanities faculty members also remarked on \u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/teachers-are-not-ok-ai-chatgpt/\">the rise of AI use among students\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“As artificial intelligence becomes more capable, it is arguably more important than ever for students to be able to think through and compose sound arguments on their own, to comprehend the texts they read and to recognize weaknesses in the arguments of those texts,” the social sciences letter reads. “The growing use of AI also makes essays a less reliable indicator of these abilities.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>However, critics of the SAT and ACT requirements emphasize the disadvantage under-resourced students face and note that the letter’s signatories are a small portion of the large UC faculty.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The problem was that the SAT itself was basically a test that was really about assessing someone’s socioeconomic status,” said Lisa Holder, an \u003ca href=\"https://equaljusticesociety.org/\">Equal Justice Society\u003c/a> civil rights attorney who helped \u003ca href=\"https://publiccounsel.org/our-cases/smith-v-regents-of-university-of-california/\">file a lawsuit\u003c/a> to end the use of SAT and ACT in UC admissions, which ended in a settlement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1469\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1366973965.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092383\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1366973965.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1366973965-160x119.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1366973965-1536x1140.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Close-up of a pencil on a page of an SAT college entrance exam preparation book, taken on Aug., 6, 2017, in Melville, New York. (Thomas A. Ferrara/Newsday RM via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The metric that that test actually excelled at measuring was your access to test prep. And that is correlated to wealth,” she said. “This is one snapshot, a day in the life of an individual, as opposed to four years of a high-performing, high-achieving student who is striving.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Stephanie, a high school teacher at a college prep school, wrote into Forum saying she was against reinstating the SAT.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I see how much time and money the wealthy students at my school spend on test prep, and it’s egregious,” she said. “The test prep courses and private tutors don’t teach students the material. They teach them how to game the system.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Another listener, who said they are a UC Merced professor, wrote on Forum’s Discord channel that many of the signatures came from “faculty at the three most selective campuses like Berkeley, UCLA and San Diego.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We educate a much higher share of students who need remedial math or writing,” they wrote. “Instead of trying to weed those students out, our approach has been to provide them with additional support and help them catch up.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1129\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/11/UCMerced11.jpg\" alt=\"A sign marking the entrance to UC Merced.\" class=\"wp-image-10747399\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/11/UCMerced11.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/11/UCMerced11-400x235.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/11/UCMerced11-800x470.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/11/UCMerced11-1440x847.jpg 1440w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/11/UCMerced11-1180x694.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2015/11/UCMerced11-960x565.jpg 960w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A sign marking the entrance to UC Merced. (Lance Johnson/Flickr)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>However, an audience member who said they were a math tutor for two decades also pointed out that “kids trying to learn calculus couldn’t add two fractions efficiently, so I stopped tutoring calculus altogether. It was too much hassle. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you wish to compete in the world, boost standards. Universities are not designed for remedial education.” Another told Forum that as a Northern California teacher who worked in \u003ca href=\"https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-is-standards-based-grading-and-how-does-it-work/2024/09\">a standards-based grading school\u003c/a>, “All of my co-teachers agreed that this made grades very inflated. Students graduated shockingly ill-prepared for college, but their grades looked great.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Read on to learn more about Forum’s conversation with experts and reporters on the debate around standardized testing in California’s public higher education system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This interview has been edited for brevity and clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The Arguments for Standardized Testing \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim: What are professors who signed the letter seeing in classrooms?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Aganagic\u003c/strong>: You’d see enormous amounts of stress on the students. You’d see students who try to take the class three times, and they’re failing again. And they say, “I’ve done everything,” and they have done everything. But the task put in front of them is to cover a multi-year gap in one college calculus class together with 400 to 700 other students. It is simply impossible. It’s sort of like I asked you to climb a wall with no footholds at all. A mathematical genius could not do that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why is standardized testing the best way to measure that readiness for college-level work?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>First, most of the SAT actually focuses on the kind of math that’s taught in middle school. I don’t mean acing it, but you will be able to do all right. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The other absolutely crucial thing to understand is how UC uses the SAT. UC was never providing a linear ranking of students and then saying, “We’ll take those with top SAT scores.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What we will do is the following: Let’s say you take two students from a poor Black neighborhood. They’re going to the same high school. We have grade inflation. Both of these kids ace their math class. And we have to pick one. How are you going to pick? Right now, if we have to pick one, it’s going to be a random choice. In fact, Berkeley doesn’t even take teachers’ recommendations into account. What we are asking for is, “Give us the SAT score.” It will allow us to make an informed choice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1385\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-860780.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092386\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-860780.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-860780-160x112.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-860780-1536x1074.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">SAT preparation books sit on a shelf at a Barnes and Noble store June 27, 2002 in New York City. (Mario Tama/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>There’s also the \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://smarterbalanced.org/our-system/students-and-families/samples/\">\u003cstrong>Smarter Balanced Test\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong> that all California public high school juniors have to take. Would that be a reliable measure?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Certainly having something would be better than having nothing at all. But one problem is purely technical — test problems leaking. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And right now, Smarter Balanced is intended to assess how schools are doing. It’s not designed as a high-stakes test. And converting it to one would require huge resources just to achieve the same thing the SAT is already doing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What do you say to critics of standardized testing, who say scores track closely with income and racial disparities? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Every measure we have, including Smarter Balanced, already has in it, baked, these inequities. There’s just simply no way around it. The SAT is no better, no worse than any other measure we had. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the crucial thing is what washes them out is how we use the SAT. We are not comparing a kid from an affluent background to a low-income student and saying, “Compare their SAT scores.” No, we compare students who are alike in every other respect. In other words, the SAT becomes one part of a student’s file. And when we cannot decide between two students who are completely alike in every other respect, it’s a much more informed choice than throwing a die, which is deeply unfair. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Didn’t the pandemic — and remote schooling — also have a hand in dropping performances? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The overall level of math preparedness has been declining. Nobody’s questioning that. But what we are seeing here is a population of students at the very lowest level of preparedness. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Usually what you see is kind of a bell curve. And when you’re talking about overall level shifting, you’re talking about this bell curve kind of shifting. But what we are seeing is the bell curve — it becomes kind of a U-shape. You see students who are acing our classes and students who’re hopelessly failing, and there’s nothing in the middle. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1320\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/GettyImages-2230923952.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12088396\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/GettyImages-2230923952.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/GettyImages-2230923952-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/GettyImages-2230923952-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">California State University, Northridge on Friday, Aug. 22, 2025. (Myung J. Chun/Los Angeles Times via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Couldn’t the UCs support these students through remedial college courses?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re pouring a lot into remediation. However, there are certain sizes of gaps that you simply cannot fill. They just become too large. If you are asking to fill a gap from elementary and middle school, it’s just hopeless. For those students, it would take years of work in college to catch up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And California has this beautiful master plan for higher education: of community colleges, the CSUs and the UCs and pathways between them. So a student who is not as well-prepared could have a real path upward: you could go to a community college, take remedial classes and then transfer to UC. You’re not placed into this classroom where you simply have no way of succeeding because your task was impossible. It is not your failure. It’s the failure of a whole system, and we should not propagate this. We should use the SAT as a placement to put kids in the right places, to give them ladders they can climb up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>The Arguments Against Standardized Testing \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim: What was the lawsuit filed against the UCs?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lisa Holder: \u003c/strong>In 2019, \u003ca href=\"https://equaljusticesociety.org/\">Equal Justice Society\u003c/a> — along with several private and public firms in a case called Smith v. UC Regents — sued the University of California for continuing to use the SAT and the ACT as a principal criteria for UC admissions when, in fact, the social science showed that the standardized tests, particularly the SAT and the ACT, were not the best metric for assessing a student’s college readiness, even though they purported to be that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The best metric, according to social scientists and psychometricians, was a student’s high school performance. Basically the classes that they took for four years. What did their teachers say about them, their student evaluations, their extracurriculars, their sports, their community involvement? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What was heartbreaking was seeing the clients we had in the Smith case who were incredible students. Many of them were students of color, disabled students and students that did not have a lot of money. And so they had no access to test prep, but they were straight A students. We had a student who had been living in his car for four years, yet he was a straight A student. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Some would argue that accessibility to test-prep has improved thanks to online resources like Khan Academy. \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s completely speculative. We haven’t had the test for five years, and there’s no requirement under any settlement to bring that test back. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What we should be doing is looking at the data that is right in front of us. And the data is what tells us that the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ucop.edu/institutional-research-academic-planning/_files/admissions-outcomes-and-performance.pdf\">UC’s own studies conducted by the board\u003c/a> established that students admitted in the last five years under the test-free policy are equally — if not more — qualified and prepared than the previous students. And that this test-free policy is much more aligned with the UC’s mission, which is to offer high-quality, publicly funded education to California’s best students, not its wealthiest students. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is a publicly funded university system, and everyone, regardless of income, is paying taxes to fund it. All high-performing California students should be able to access this school without obstruction from a gatekeeper test calibrated to measure for wealth rather than excellence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What do you say in response to concerns being raised by professors like Aganagic? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The achievement lapses that folks may be seeing are much more likely attributable to this generation’s addiction to mobile phones and their scattered focus, their literacy deficits and sort of shrinking attention spans caused by mobile phone usage and AI addiction. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s a much larger systemic problem that we have to start to think about pedagogically in all of our schools. Also, what we’re seeing in this cohort of students is also largely impacted by the missed learning opportunities that they experienced during COVID. Some students were out of school for a year and a half, and so I’m sure that their math preparation may have suffered. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And frankly, we have a lot of really lackluster curricula around STEM in our high schools. And so, students may not be excelling as much as they could be if we were to modernize our systems and sort of keep up with what’s going on globally around STEM. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/GenericClassroomGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12050458\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/GenericClassroomGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/GenericClassroomGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/GenericClassroomGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Back view of large group of students sitting in the classroom and listening to their teacher. (Skynesher/Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Behind the Testing Debate\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim: What have some of the effects been of waiving the test requirement?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Felicia Mello: \u003c/strong>UC’s data actually showed that they saw a big bump in applications right after going test-optional. In the first year, applications went up about 19%. And you also start to see a slight increase in diversity of both the people who are applying and the people who are getting in. In terms of performance, the official UC stats don’t show a huge difference. They show that persistence — meaning students who remained in college from the first year to the second year — was largely flat during that time. First-year GPAs ticked down very slightly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I am really just speaking to kind of what we saw right after the change went into effect in 2021. But the picture painted by the overall UC data is not as grim as the one that is being put forward by faculty on some campuses. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>How would you characterize the support for the faculty letters? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We have about 3,000 UC faculty out of roughly 26,000 who have signed on to one of these letters, either the letter from STEM faculty or the letter from social sciences and humanities faculty. We have seen the STEM faculty be much more out front on this. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The social sciences and humanities faculty who have come out in favor of this mentioned that having a good quantitative background is also important for social science classes like economics. There also is clearly some concern around students’ writing skills — that the rise of AI has made it harder to tell, even from students’ applications, whether they’re writing them themselves, and it also just has the potential to constrain what students are learning in terms of writing and communication in general. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The UC Berkeley math faculty — who had really been pushing via this open letter for the return of the SAT — had done their own analysis of numbers in introductory calculus classes. And they found that between 2021 and 2023, after UC got rid of the SAT and admissions, there was a big jump in students who were severely underprepared for that introductory calculus course. But unfortunately, because we only have those three years of data, they weren’t giving the same test prior to or after that. It is a bit hard to put that data in context. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Supporters of reinstating the requirement say that the tests would be used in a holistic approach. How true is that?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The UC actually does consider 13 different factors in admissions currently, even separate from test scores. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Not just your high school GPA, but how you’re doing relative to other students in your class. It looks at the types of life circumstances you’ve had, your geographic location. Have you had a recent improvement in your performance? What kinds of rigorous courses have you taken? Have you taken AP courses? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s another factor here, which is the broader political environment, and I think there’s a concern that even if the UC brings back the test, there will be pressure then on the UC to focus more narrowly on the task and abandon some of the more holistic aspects of its review. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Trump administration has certainly been pressuring universities to not pay much attention to the diversity of their classes and not intentionally try to enroll a diverse student body. There’s a concern that this could be seized on by outside actors to try and do an analysis of the university’s admission policies that would focus really narrowly on those test scores. Now, whether that actually happens would remain to be seen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Equity advocates have also said in the past that, for different reasons, even if you go test-optional, it’s still sending a signal whether those students choose to submit their scores or not, and that could still affect their application.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The Next Steps\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim: The UC is saying that they will study and make a decision on whether to bring back the testing requirement a year from now. How likely is it that they will bring it back?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mello: \u003c/strong>This is something that was actually in the works even before these open letters. We’ve seen a number of factors that have changed since 2020: We have seen shifts in AI and how it affects the application process. Some of those concerns related to the pandemic are no longer there in the same way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s a lot of pressure to make this decision more quickly. The Faculty Senate had laid out this process of coming to a recommendation by fall 2027. The faculty had originally laid out a plan: They said, we’re going to study this, and the earliest that we could make a decision under this very detailed road map would be for people who are applying in fall of 2028.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They have since rescinded that detailed timeline. All we know at this point is that they’re going to make their recommendation by June. That creates some potential anxiety for this year’s incoming high school juniors. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Who decides to bring back standardized testing?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The regents will really make the ultimate call on this. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The most interesting part of the regents meeting was the chair of the Board of Regents saying that she really felt like the public discussion around this has been too narrowly focused on standardized testing and that the university really needs to take a broader look at what it means to be ready for college in 2026. So this will include things like looking at the high school courses that UC requires people to have when they’re applying. Right now, there’s not a requirement for computer science or any other technology-related course. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s really an appetite for looking at these things more broadly. The regents are looking at, “How do we both maintain that reputation for excellence?” But also do what they are intending to do as a state university and make sure that access to the university is based on hard work and aptitude as opposed to just how much wealth your family has. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1485\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1056629578.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092389\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1056629578.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1056629578-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GettyImages-1056629578-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Standardized test company logo seen displayed on smartphone. (Igor Golovniov/SOPA Images/LightRocket via Getty Images)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Is there a middle ground option for standardized testing?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There are some universities and colleges that are using the SAT more for placement purposes after people get in. So they’re essentially saying, “We don’t require this for admissions, but we either require or strongly encourage you to share scores after you get in so that we can help figure out if you’re going to be in the right math class for you.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One of the things that I observe during the course of this reporting is that placement practices for math classes really vary across UC. It’s an extremely diverse system. I spoke with the math chair at UC Santa Barbara who did not sign on to this open letter in support of bringing back the SAT, and he was saying that when we identify students who may not be prepared for our introductory calculus classes, we make sure we flag that early on. We make sure that they are going to community college, and getting the kind of remedial preparation that they need, and then coming back, and those students tend to succeed in our classes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Wouldn’t the effects of the pandemic also be a major factor in student performance?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Essentially, there’s nobody I interviewed on either side that said, “Oh, we’re not dealing with any pandemic-related learning deficiencies.” There’s broad acknowledgment that our students are struggling in various ways since the pandemic, and something needs to be done. And the question is, what is the best response? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We know it’s not just all about the pandemic, because instead of seeing everybody equally struggling, we’re seeing this concentration on both ends where some people are doing really well, some people are really struggling, and that middle category of student is dropping out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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