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And so, in essence — and this would have to be worked out in some form or fashion — you’d have 23 million registered voters all basically having to re-register, pick which identification they’ll be using, so that when they do write down that four-digit number on their ballot envelope, it can be double-checked once the vote is cast.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Would it also add requirements with regard to auditing or, you know, checking voter rolls?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, there’s another provision in this ballot measure that asks both state election officials, the secretary of state and county election officials to double-check whether the voters on the rolls are citizens. And it says they have to do so using, quote, “their best effort.” But that’s another area of this proposition that would have to be defined in the future by the state legislature. What does that mean for these election officials to be using their best efforts to check whether the folks on the voter rolls are actually citizens? I think —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I mean, something they would argue they’re already doing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and the legislature would have to define that. And they could. It’s a Democratic-controlled legislature. The vast majority of members don’t even think that this proposition should be made law. You could easily end up in a situation where, if this does pass, the legislature basically signs off on the work that election officials are already doing as a way to confirm, under the way this measure is written, that folks on the rolls are citizens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Marisa, who put this measure on the ballot?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I mean, the main proponent is Carl DeMaio. He’s a longtime San Diego kind of politician. He hosted a radio show. I don’t know if he was quite a shock jock, but like sort of in that, like, right-wing radio, you know, and he really came to prominence in San Diego like 20 years ago when he was on the City Council and was kind of leading the fight to try to strip public employees of some of the retirement benefits. This was during a lot of concern about pension benefits being over-generous. And I think a lot of people, including Democrats, had concerns and felt that it needed to be reined in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But DeMaio really angered a lot of public employee unions because he tried to actually claw back benefits that had already been promised to people instead of sort of making it moving forward. He went on, as I said, to kind of gain right-wing prominence with his radio show and then eventually has come to the state legislature. And he’s really the main person behind it, but it really is this coalition of him, other legislative Republicans. And then now we’re seeing a lot of support from national figures from, like, the MAGA movement who are pouring in money and supporting this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And what does DeMaio say about why this proposition is needed?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> You know, I think DeMaio understands the politics of the state better than probably the president. So I will say this is a far less sort of extreme measure than what Trump has been pushing. But he’s making the same arguments, right, that there’s fraud in our system, that we need to ensure that, you know, everybody who’s voting is a legitimate citizen. And I mean, it’s the same argument we’ve been hearing from Trump, I would say.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> But to Marisa’s point, DeMaio has, you know, gone on media throughout the state making the pitch for Prop 39. And I think in a lot of forums, he’s presented it as a way to kind of silence critiques about voter fraud. I mean, in one instance, he said, if you want to shut up the people who are raising these conspiracy theories, pass Proposition 39 and then they won’t be raising them anymore. Which would be still open. I don’t think he’s, you know, run that by the president. You know, I think that’s still an open question. But he’s, I think, in trying to appeal to folks beyond Republicans, have said, look, all this discussion about trust in elections and voter fraud will end if we pass Prop 39. I think there’s a lot of research that points to voters’ feelings about the security of elections being driven much more by bipartisan messaging than by actual voter laws.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Is this measure, you know, in coordination with President Trump?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> President Trump has not explicitly endorsed Proposition 39. He did say in early 2025, after those wildfires in Southern California, that California’s ability to get federal funding should come after the state passes voter ID. So he’s expressed support for California to enact some kind of system of voter ID. He has not explicitly endorsed Prop 39 since it made it to the ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And I would argue that that’s intentional. Right? Trump’s historically unpopular here in California. I think that there’s a real sense that him — he is already so associated with these efforts that I think if you look at the polling and the way Democrats are responding, they’re probably making that connection anyway. But I think it’s likely that folks like DeMaio were sort of like, maybe just stay out of this one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So then let’s talk about the opponents. What do they say is wrong with requiring voters to show ID when they cast a ballot or to write that kind of information on a ballot envelope that they’re mailing in, Guy?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I think the most common argument you hear against Prop 39 is that it’s a solution in search of a problem. We don’t have voter fraud occurring throughout California. Why is there a need, then, they would argue, to enact a new system that is purported to crack down on that fraud?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think you also hear arguments about how this would add — you can call it hassles, you can call it hurdles — to actually voting by mail. I think that the piece of this that relates to in-person voting is much more simple and straightforward, right? Right now, when you go to vote in person, you usually sign the poll book next to your name. That’s not really checked. This would actually make it more secure in that case to vote in person because you’d be presenting ID.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But again, the vast majority, 80% in our last general election, voted by mail. So when you’re talking about this in California, we really have to talk about this through the lens of vote by mail, and it would create new systems to vote by mail. Again, writing down that four-digit number, where is that number coming from, having people pick that — it would add these new complications and these new systems to voting by mail. So it’s a very different conversation when you’re talking about voter ID in California than in the rest of the country, where we don’t have as much prevalence in a lot of states of vote by mail, and you see most states in the country do have some sort of voter ID.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So it would be the last four digits of a Social Security number and your entire driver’s license number, or?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> So it could be any government ID. You would get to pick that, which ID you use.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> But you would have to stick with it, which is, I think, part of the concern. Yeah, the other reason I’m asking is because opponents have also raised concerns about identity theft related to this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right. Because this number would be on the outside of your ballot envelope. So there are concerns that if you’re writing down the last four digits, let’s say, your driver’s license, with your signature there, could that open the door to identity theft?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I also think when you’re talking about this through the context of vote by mail, there are already a lot more security checks with vote by mail than voting in person. Again, when you vote in person, you sign that poll book. No one’s really double-checking that. When you vote by mail, that signature that you sign on your ballot envelope is being checked against your signature on file. That’s part of why it takes longer to count the vote in California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But those security measures are already in place, and I think opponents of Prop 39 would say, well, then why do we need this whole new system involving writing down this number on the envelope?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. The other thing that they raise are issues about voters of certain groups being disproportionately affected, right? Low-income —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Young voters.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Talk about that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. I mean, I think any time we talk about voter access and hurdles to voting, young voters are oftentimes the most impacted. And that can be for a variety of reasons, being new to the experience of voting, moving around, changing addresses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When we talk about votes that get rejected in California, oftentimes because ballots arrive too late, or there are signature issues, younger voters are overrepresented in that pool of ballots that tend to get rejected. And so I think the concern here with Prop 39 is, again, you add potentially this new requirement of having to select a form of identification that young voters would be the most impacted by that. Maybe not following up with that first request for, hey, you need to specify which ID you’re using.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me invite listeners into the conversation. Listeners, how do you feel about Prop 39? What are your questions about it? You can email Forum at kqed.org, find us on Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum. Or you can call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Douglas on Discord writes, “I don’t see a need for it. Voter fraud is incredibly rare. This costs money. Why spend money fighting something that almost never happens?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Discord user Steve writes, “I would support voter ID laws, but only after we make the big push, likely a multi-year effort, to get adequate IDs into the hands of everyone qualified to vote. Otherwise, it’s just another form of an illegal poll tax.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> That’s a great point about having a universal ID for this, because the way Prop 39 is written is that any voter can request a voting ID, basically can ask the state, hey, you’ve passed Prop 39, can I have a voting ID? But it wouldn’t be just sent by default to everybody. So that’s an important point that that listener raises.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And Marisa, you know, Guy was mentioning — and you were mentioning — the fact that when, you know, votes are thrown out, if it’s not for fraud, what are the most common reasons the ballots get tossed?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, people just don’t fill them out correctly, right? I mean, the signature matching is one thing, but often registrars really go above and beyond to try to ensure that if a signature doesn’t look matched, that they follow up with voters even, which again delays the count.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I think that you have to do things properly. There’s a set of steps you need to fill out the bubbles with a black pen, right? Like, you need not a pencil, or I don’t think blue is accepted. Is that correct?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> In some cases, yeah, ideally, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> You know, you need to put it in the envelope correctly, sign it, date it. Like, there’s just all these steps. And I think that, you know, what people who oppose these types of voter ID measures say is, like, any — it’s already so hard to get people to vote. Like, any extra barriers are going to both, you know, dissuade some people from voting at all or potentially, you know, have others invalidate their —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> And I’ll say, I mean, we can just look recently to our last election in June. Almost 2% of all vote-by-mail ballots were rejected. And the biggest reason was they didn’t arrive on time. You know, people waited a long time to vote. And in some cases, that ballot just was not postmarked by Election Day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes, and interestingly, that marks a pretty significant increase, too, in the number of rejected ballots. But it sounds like you’re essentially saying, Marisa, that there is a robust process in place for vote verification, and also the penalties are pretty steep if you tried to commit voter fraud.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. And I mean, the reason we hear about voter fraud is because it’s so rare that when it does happen, it gets prosecuted. Right. And so I think, like, that’s something people who want these type of laws make, you know, hey, I’ve — say, oh, well, look, somebody registered their dog in Orange County. Well, she did it on purpose. First of all, we can talk about that later.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Marisa Lagos and Guy Marzorati about Prop 39 and with you, listeners. Stay with us. More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. We’re talking this hour about Proposition 39, a ballot measure that would institute stricter voter ID requirements. Voters would be required to show ID when they cast their ballot, in addition to when they register, which is what they do now, or to show some kind of identifying information on the outside of their mail-in ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Supporters argue the rules are common-sense safeguards, essential for restoring public confidence in elections, while opponents contend that they would disproportionately disenfranchise certain voters, like young voters. It could also pose some identity theft risks with you writing information on the outside of your ballot envelope.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Marisa Lagos is a correspondent on KQED’s politics desk, co-host of Political Breakdown. Guy Marzorati is also a correspondent on KQED’s California Politics and Government Desk. And you, our listeners, are joining the conversation. You can tell us how you’re planning to vote on Prop 39, your questions about it, and also what you want to know about the status of mail-in voting, which is very connected to this. And there’s been some recent developments around that as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The email address is forum at kqed.org. Find us on Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum. Call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Paul writes, “I’m a fan of the if-it-ain’t-broke, don’t-fix-it camp. We’ve had safe, secure, fraud-free elections for decades. Unless someone can come up with actual evidence of a problem with ineligible people casting ballots, I see no reason to create extra expense and inconvenience for both voters and election officials.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I want to take just a little bit of a step back and look at the status of the president’s efforts to restrict vote by mail. Not only because more than 80% of Californians now vote by mail, which I think is pretty incredible, according to the latest Secretary of State’s office, and would be affected by the type of rules that Proposition 39 would bring if passed. But also because there have been some recent developments that we can talk more into later, that the president has sort of changed his tune on voting by mail, even though he chooses to vote that way himself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But let’s just sort of step back and remember some of the initial steps the president took to try to restrict vote by mail. There was that executive order in March that directed federal agencies to take a series of steps on mail-in voting. Remind us what some of those were, Marisa.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, he’s made a number of attempts. I think there’s a previous executive order in 2025 as well, and that one’s the one this year sort of built on it. Essentially, there’s a couple buckets here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, one is that the federal government has been trying to force the states to essentially share their voter rolls with the feds and run them against, you know, whatever list the federal government has created of eligible citizens who can vote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s interesting, the problem with this. I was just doing an event with David Becker at the Center for Election Integrity and Research, and he was saying, you know, actually, states have much more accurate information about you and I, like, because I think some people would be like, why shouldn’t we share this with the federal government? But the truth is, like, the feds don’t have necessarily your Social Security number linked to your driver’s license number linked to other information about you. The state does.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so there’s been a huge pushback. Some Republican states have shared this information and handed over their voter rolls. States like California and many others, including some Republican states, have really balked, pushed back, sued. The courts have upheld that. So that information has not been passed on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, another bucket was, of course, the SAVE Act, which he has unsuccessfully tried to get through Congress, which would have been a very draconian voter ID measure. That would have required, potentially, basically made millions of people, or at least hundreds of thousands, ineligible to vote because you would have had to have your birth certificate match your current ID. And obviously, for women who got married and changed their name, for people — there’s a long list of people who would have been affected by that. Again, even Republicans in Congress have not been willing, or at the least in the —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The biggest fight that we see play out most recently as related to that executive order has been around the Postal Service’s role, or historic lack of role, in sort of overseeing election mail. And so the president wanted USPS to essentially have its own list of eligible voters and only send ballots to those people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So really injecting this federal agency that has never had any sort of contact with voting and elections into this entire process. Again, that’s been litigated. The Supreme Court upheld some lower court rulings, although mostly their decision, I think this is going to come back up, because what the Supreme Court said is essentially it’s too close to this election to do it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Lower courts have also said, look, Congress would need to delegate this responsibility to USPS. The president wanted the Postal Service to create special envelopes that would be the only ones you could use.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s a lot of concerns about this, most notably that this is not an agency that has any training around this. And also that we do have a very prescribed legal system around who gets to touch ballots in our country. It’s called chain of custody.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Folks probably heard it brought up in relation to that case in Riverside where the sheriff, Chad Bianco, seized tens of thousands of ballots and was slapped down by the California Supreme Court recently. You know, the reason for that is, like, we sort of consider these ballots sacred once they’re being, you know, before they’re counted, and even afterward, they are a record of, you know, what’s at the heart of our democracy. And if you break that chain of custody, it can undermine election results.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think the USPS stuff has really raised a lot of concerns. And again, you know, obviously, the president’s most loyal supporters are behind him. But I really think you have to look at how many of these election officials, a lot of whom are nonpartisan right on the local level, but also Republican secretaries of state in some cases, have stood up and been like, get out of here, we do not want the federal government messing with a system that goes remarkably well given how many —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Vote. The other thing that’s shaken voters, right, Guy, was the fact that there was a USPS whistleblower who basically said that the agency was sort of preparing to follow Trump’s executive order to some extent even though it had not been determined in the courts whether this was legal.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right. To push ahead with it regardless. And I think a big question, and Marisa raised as well, is just about the information that the federal government has versus the state has. And this executive order not only would have required states to put together a list of eligible voters, it also would have given the Department of Homeland Security a role in creating a list.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Have, like, approved voters, right, who would receive ballots. Right. And basically —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right, and basically double-checking between those two lists, what the state provides to the feds and the list the federal government puts together. And to Marisa’s point, the information that the Department of Homeland Security might have to put together such a list could potentially be incomplete.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so then you’d have basically them going between the state information, federal government information, and a big picture giving the USPS more power over vote-by-mail that they’ve never really had. I mean, the states have always had the authority over administering elections. This would have been a real departure from that in granting the USPS this authority.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And then, Guy, there was also that recent investigation from ProPublica that the Trump administration would have disrupted mail-in voting even further by requiring ballots to be delivered through certified mail. What would that have meant?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s a great question. I mean, in practice, like, how that actually would have worked, given the timelines of getting ballots out. Yeah, signing for the ballot as you would for certified mail. So, you know, I think — and especially the time — I think we have to think about, like, the timeline of a lot of these executive orders and the litigation around them. Ballots are ready, going out. I mean, in some states, they’ve been sent out. In California, this is the week where a lot of people are receiving their ballots in the mail. The court of the Supreme Court has always been hesitant to adjudicate election-related issues close to an election, and we certainly are close to election, given how many Americans already have their ballots and —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me go to some calls coming in. Omar in San Francisco, go ahead. You’re on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Omar:\u003c/strong> Hey, Mina. So this is just another attempt in a roundabout way of the Orange Foolius trying to create issues with the process that works. You know, absolutely great. They’re basically, and I hate to use this term, you know, Henny-Pennying or Chicken Littling the voting process to create a sense of fear or even complacency where they’re like, okay, we just don’t even wanna deal with it. And I think it’s just gotten ridiculous.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, we’ve been put up with this for four years once. We’re about two years through the process again. I know we’ll survive as a country. But how — how bad will we be after, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Omar, thanks for sharing where you’re at. I think you’re not alone.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Babesh writes, “The whole issue of voter fraud is a big lie perpetrated by Donald Trump. It’s sad that we’re wasting so much national energy and time discussing a non-issue, and it’s also corrosive in the long run to our democracy by reducing the faith in elections. The problem we should actually solve is how to get more people to vote in a democracy.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Interestingly, though, the way this is polling — and was polling initially, too — it looked like it had a lot of bipartisan support.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the polling around voter ID is fascinating because, taken in a vacuum, the idea of requiring identification before people vote, adding that extra level of security, is popular.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Even in California, I mean, Berkeley, this is the best snapshot we have of this. In the spring, Berkeley did a survey where they asked voters about just that idea: What is being proposed in Proposition 39, voter ID at the polls and also through by mail. Fifty-six percent of voters approved of that idea.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They then said, okay, well, what if we tell you a little bit more about the arguments for and against, some of the, you know, pros and cons that we’ve discussed on this show? It suddenly dropped to about even — 37% yes, 35% no.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then they asked, okay, well, I’m going to tell you who’s supporting this idea and who’s opposing it. All of a sudden, completely flipped. Yes down to 39%, no 52%.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So we go from 56% yes to 39% yes based on who’s actually lining up for and against this idea. That 39% yes is exactly where Prop 39 is still polling.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So more than anything, I think this measure and this idea has been incredibly red- and blue-coded. As soon as voters are aware of the groups behind it and the supporters of it, their support for the idea plummets.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, I think Lane is sort of related here. Lane in San Francisco writes, “I think many people may have the attitude that it is not that difficult to just show identification if you want to vote,” which we may attribute to the fact that it was polling pretty evenly initially.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Lane writes, “Please clarify for listeners the many reasons why it may be difficult for some people to get ID. What about all of the fire victims that have lost their documents? What about foster children that may not have access to their birth certificates and other documents required to get identification?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So there is a step, of course, to prove that you are eligible to vote through the registration process, but yes, there’s lots of reasons that documents are tough to get.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And it’s why in many states, even states that have voter ID rules, oftentimes you’ll see provisions that voters can still bring forth identification that’s not like your driver’s license. Arizona, for example, you can bring a utility bill and, like, a bank statement. Others are more strict and they really will require a photo ID requirement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But even states that have gone ahead and enacted voter ID, I think understand in some cases that the actual photo ID as the sole document you have to provide can in some cases be challenging for people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> But I also think we need to put this in the context of our history and the voter suppression efforts that have occurred and have often been very racially motivated. I’m thinking about, obviously, coming out of slavery and the Jim Crow era and the idea that there are states in this day and age who will say, you can use your gun license as a voter ID, but you may not use a student ID.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, like, I think — again, I think some of the opposition to these laws, like, yes, it sounds sort of reasonable, and in some ways it is, right, to say, and we all do show an ID, we all prove who we are when we register to vote in California. But this is a country that has a long history of using these types of laws to particularly suppress the votes of certain populations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I just, like, I think we have to put that in context, and I think it also speaks to why, when voters learn more about this in a state like California that is deep blue, in this hyper-partisan moment, when people are so angry at the president, it explains why people are like, mm, I’m good on this, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think, like, this is not really as much on either side in some ways about the policy. It’s about the sort of moment and the distrust.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> If this goes down in California, Marisa, do you think that essentially this issue — it will be the end of this issue in this state? Or do you think that there will be an attempt to try to re-energize it and bring it back up later?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I mean, that’s an interesting question. How many times have we seen ballot measures fail and then come back? I don’t know. I do think this is a bit of a canary in the coal mine for Republicans. I’m not sure we’ll see it come back right away. If it fails, I think it would depend on how close it is, what else is going on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But certainly we are seeing national figures donate money on the right to try to push this through. The bigger thing would be if it passes, what lessons are learned from that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Interestingly, there was a piece in CalMatters, Guy, that was saying that these big donors who are watching the Prop 39 fight in California are contending that, yes, it may not pass here, but that they’re gauging how much it loses by. Why would that information be important?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I mean, maybe they feel like, you know, this particular election, the turnout that we expect in November is going to be pro-Democratic, right, given the national mood. The idea that they would fare better in a different electoral environment — this is not polling within the margin of error right now, right? This is like the yes side is trailing in all available public polling.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m not sure a signal that it’s, you know, four or five points one way or another would make them feel like, oh, if we brought this back in 2028, we’d have an entirely different result.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> But my sense is that it’s probably not gonna go away in other states, that’s for sure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right. I mean, we are seeing — I mean, just this year, there’s Arizona, Nevada, a handful of other states have voter ID measures on the ballot. Oklahoma, in their primary, enshrined voter ID into their state constitution. So this is a live issue on the ballot in states throughout the country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And again, it’s interesting to me because states like Georgia and Arizona, for example, have actually higher or similar voter turnout to what we do here. And they have pretty strict voter ID laws.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Again, though, I think, like, how something is crafted matters. I do think that in this moment when there’s so much concern over how quickly we count ballots here and the resource levels of registrars already not being where they need to be to do the work, like, this is going to add another layer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it’s sort of ironic because I think the same people who are pushing this measure are the ones who are screaming about how undemocratic it is and how problematic it is that we take so long to count our vote here in California. Well, this would just expand that further, and I think give them more ability to attack the integrity of the election.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s not being talked about enough. We have this whole separate discussion about how long it takes to count ballots. Is adding a new — you have to write a four-digit number, have that be double-checked — that could add more time. If you show up to vote and you don’t have an ID and suddenly now you have cast a provisional ballot, that takes added time on the backend to check.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I don’t see anything in this measure that’s going to speed up the ballot count, which has been a very contentious discussion.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It has been. I’m just curious what you make of that discussion. You know, if you feel like there are merits to the criticism of how long it takes for California to count its votes, you know, or others who just feel like, look, we’re a big state. We have a lot of people. We have a lot of different county offices and so on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I mean, that is true. It is taking longer because we are a big state in which a large number of people vote by mail and return those ballots on Election Day. But that’s not to say that it cannot be faster.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If there was more, you know, money in the system, if there were more people counting the ballots, if there were more machines to count the ballots, like, it’s not — you just say, oh, well, because so many people vote by mail, throw your hands up. It has to be this. I’m not — I don’t entirely buy that argument.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking this hour about Proposition 39, the ballot measure that would institute stricter voter ID requirements when casting a ballot or voting by mail. Guy Marzorati is a correspondent on KQED’s California Politics and Government Desk. So is Marisa Lagos. She also co-hosts KQED’s Political Breakdown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Listeners, do you want to share how you’re planning to vote, the questions you have about 39, the reasons you’re voting one way or the other, and what do you wanna know about the status of mail-in voting? The latest restrictions, the latest developments around that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The email address is forum at kqed.org. Find us on Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And this listener — Noelle writes, “I volunteered at a vote center for the primary election in June. The Registrar of Voters has made it a priority to get all eligible voters to vote. There are so many options of how you can vote. It made me feel glad. And working with the other poll workers who are naturalized citizens and who knew other languages was another highlight for me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“One of the poll workers lived in a senior housing apartment complex and one of her neighbors came to vote. The voter was 94 and needed help from the poll worker neighbor. And it was heartwarming to see that this person felt it was important to vote.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So just a heartwarming story about voting and the importance of it here in California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ll have more after the break. Listeners, this is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Prop 39 is a ballot measure that would institute stricter voter ID requirements when you cast a ballot or vote by mail. Supporters say the rules are common-sense safeguards essential for restoring public confidence in elections. Opponents contend that they pose all sorts of problems, including potentially disenfranchising groups of voters and increasing the risk of identity theft.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Marisa Lagos and Guy Marzorati have been covering this and are talking about it with you, our listeners, at 866-733-6786, at the email address forum at kqed.org, and on our social channels at KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And this listener, Jason, writes, “Prop 39 is a terrible idea. I’m already dealing with identity theft. The last thing I need is California making it easier for bad actors by requiring me to advertise the last four numbers of a form of identification.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, we were talking about some of the things that have shaken people’s confidence in the U.S. Postal Service, and also about some of the issues related to the requirements around mail-in ballots, which nearly 90% of Californians now do, or at least did in the primary election. So vast majority of Californians vote this way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I wanna, well, first let’s clarify. Marisa, has anything changed at USPS? Will ballots be affected by any changes at USPS this election?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I mean, yes, not actually differently from the primary, but yes, maybe since 2024 previously. Especially if you’re in a more rural area, there have been some changes to the way ballots are essentially gathered and processed that can delay when you get a postmark.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So it’s not just because you put your ballot in a mailbox on November 2nd, the day before the election, does not mean that USPS will put a November 2 postmark on it. And so I think, you know —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So they’re postmarking when it’s received at the facility, when it is processed?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And sometimes if you’re in, say, the Sacramento area or closer to Lake Tahoe, it might be sent to like a Reno processing center before it gets sent back here. So for the postmark. For the postmark.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the bottom line is, like, it’s first of all, if you need to vote by actual USPS mail, I think the best advice these days is try to get in the mail up to a week before the election. Like, don’t wait until the days before.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the best thing to do is either put it in one of those county drop boxes. Those do not rely on the postal service at all. The county registrar actually comes and collects those in most counties every single day at the end of the day. And they postmark the day that they were in the box. And they will essentially count it as being received that day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Or you can mail — you know, take your mail-in ballot, take your time at home, love it, cuddle it, whatever you need to do, and then walk it into a voting center, whether that’s on Election Day or previously, preferably previously, because the sooner you get your ballots in, the less we have to hear national folks complaining about how long our vote count takes, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But you can actually — it’s called naked voting, I learned recently — where you basically go in and feed your ballot in at the voting center without the mail-in envelope in it. So there’s multiple options, and I think — but again, I think the ballot drop boxes, if you wanna vote by mail and you don’t wanna be hassled with finding a voting center, are probably the best option.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then — there’s early voting in a lot of counties too. So you can actually just go in and, like, cast your ballot in person a week or two before the election.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That naked balloting that Marisa’s talking about, Guy, that sounds like just a little bit different than what you say a lot of Californians do, which is drop off their ballot at the voting site the day of the election. This would mean actually taking it out of the envelope and having them process it right in front of you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right, so that the processing doesn’t happen on the back end, so that it’s more akin to voting in person and that the vote is actually processed right there. That does help speed up the vote count.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I should point folks — our colleague Izzy Bloom did a great explainer on all the changes to USPS, how that might affect voting. Encourage folks, go to KQED, check that out. She talked to the registrar of voters in Sonoma County, who said, point: we’re not encouraging people to use USPS.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I do, I agree with Marisa, there’s so many drop boxes in counties. I mean, where I live in San Jose, the drop box is closer than the post office. And I will just — I’ll second that. I think if you’re voting close to Election Day, don’t be, you know, you would hate to be that person that you spend that time filling out your ballot, you return it, it ends up getting postmarked after Election Day. Just use a drop box.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And I understand if you really do want to get that postmark or make sure you see that postmark, another thing that Izzy wrote about — and you’re right, that piece is excellent, and I highly recommend people read it — that you go in and get a hand-stamped postmark right there, right in front of you. Yeah, you can go into the post office as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Again, these are adding the extra steps, so I do think, you know, I think it’s also just worth just thinking about making a plan. You know, like, what is my plan? Maybe it’s setting a time sometime the weekend before the election, if you don’t have time before then, or two weekends before, to just sit down and do this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We have a long ballot in San Francisco and California in particular. I mean, there’s 14 statewide ballot measures. I can’t remember how many city ones this year, but add another handful to that. A lot of counties, you know, L.A. has a big mayor’s race. We have congressional races. There’s a lot to pour over.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A lot of these ballot measures are confusing in some cases on purpose. And so I think that giving yourself that time and then making a plan is really important. And it’s just, like I said, to do all that work and then to find out it wasn’t counted is just incredibly discouraging.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And you can track your ballot once you put it out there so that you can. And again, if you want more details about that, listeners, that’s in the piece.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is from Berkeley writes, “I’d always assumed that proponents of restrictive voting policies wanted to preferentially reduce progressive or Democratic turnout, but a more sinister interpretation seems more likely now. A desire to reduce turnout overall, making it easier for those in power to run roughshod over public interests in favor of politicians’ interests. Are there documents from whistleblowers or leaks that explicitly clarify the genuine intentions of those behind voter ID proposals?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I don’t know if the person who blew the whistle at the USPS —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I would say there’s, for this one in California, I would describe probably a few different motives. I mean, this is a policy that Republicans have championed across the country. I do think this was an organizing opportunity for Republicans, specifically Carl DeMaio. I mean, he started this group, Reform California, and they’ve gone through the process of collecting signatures to get this on the ballot, fundraising. So this really was a big grassroots organizing opportunity for DeMaio and Republicans in California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, so, and as far as, like, fewer people voting, that is, you know, when the Legislative Analyst’s Office analyzed Prop 39 and said, okay, here’s where it would cost the state money. Here’s where we’d save the state. One of the ways that they said it could save the state money is just fewer people voting as a result of this, though the cost would still — this would still cost the state money from having to send out these new, uh, potential ID cards and, you know, the paperwork and —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And then the registrars would have to do more work on the back end.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Corey in San Francisco writes, “What’s to stop the federal government from not sending ballots disproportionately to one party if the federal government gets more information, for example?” That was the only fear that was raised. Trump not sending ballots to Democrats or minorities or women, I feel like this — that’s his end game.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Okay, can we just talk about where the efforts to restrict mail-in voting will go from here, especially since its loudest champion for restrictions, the president, has recently been changing his tune and telling Republican voters to vote by mail?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it’s really remarkable, you know, this shift. I just want to point out, like, he has said mail-in voting means mail-in cheating, and then just recently he posted this on Truth Social.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Donald Trump:\u003c/strong> Do not wait. Go out and vote. Vote early, vote by mail, or vote in person on Election Day, November 3rd.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Vote often, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> How should we interpret this sort of change of message?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I mean, cynically, I think is fair, because we’ve seen this before, right? Like, he spends, you know, a year or two years trying to undercut confidence in our elections, claiming all this fraud, and then looks around and realizes on the eve of an election that matters to Republicans that, hey, this could actually depress their vote as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, we saw this in 2024 and 2022 as well, so I don’t think it’s anything different, and I would not expect that it means a change of heart by the president. I think what we are going to see is him continue to try to push some of these attempts at making it harder to vote and inserting the federal government into the elections.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If Republicans lose the House, and especially if they lose the House and the Senate, he’s going to have even less chance of doing that legislatively. So I think we can expect more lawsuits, more executive orders, and a lot of rhetoric.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think that’s really important to note. And this is something, like, I just want to say, because we’ve been spending a lot of time on Political Breakdown thinking about and talking about election integrity. And I’ve been spending a lot of time talking to folks, nonpartisan experts on this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think what’s really important is that so much of what the president has done, I think, is really aimed at scaring people, right? When you think about things like these sort of — this idea they floated out there that they might have troops or ICE at the polls, the idea that they may try to sort of come in and take control from states and counties, none of that is constitutional.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And even if, you know, there were attempts to do it, I think that they would be very limited and very much aimed, again, at sort of intimidating people and officials, not in actually being able to disrupt the election.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the folks I talked to who have done this work for a long time say that, you know, we should have confidence that this election will go off well. I think the thing I’m going to be watching is what happens after the election. Is there any attempts to disrupt vote counts, to seize ballots? Are there any attempts, you know, to sort of mess with things when we talk about the seating of the House on January 3rd?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if, you know, if Republicans lose, is the speaker going to try to do something to prevent Democrats from being seated? I think that’s a pretty far-off, you know, thing. But I do think we spend so much time thinking about, like, how do people vote? I want us to still stay on our toes and be watching things after the votes come in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> And I think also a lot of this, like, you have to look through the lens of a pre-buttle. Even before Trump’s approval dropped to how low it is, the president typically does poorly in a midterm election. And I would think it would surprise no one if the day after the election he comes out and says, well, if we had only passed, you know, stricter voter requirements, we wouldn’t have had this, you know, Democratic wins in the House, the Senate, et cetera.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It sounds like you’re essentially saying that, you know, timing-wise, there’s gonna be vote by mail in this midterm election, and he does not need people not voting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> One hundred percent. You can’t — and you can change anything related to that within 90 days of the election. Like, that is established.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And I’m sure there were members of his own party telling him —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I mean, that’s not — I didn’t see the video, but it sounded like he was reading off a script. Oh, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, you know, essentially, I think that is part of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Let me remind listeners first, you are listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. But Guy, to Marisa’s point, you very much covered the attempted seizure — or the seizure — of ballots and the attempt to hold onto them by Riverside County Sheriff Chad Bianco, and that, you know, the state Supreme Court had made a ruling in that. Tell us what the ruling is and whether people should feel more confident that that is unlikely — seizures of ballots might be unlikely to happen here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so the ruling was basically that Chad Bianco, the sheriff in Riverside County, broke the law when he seized ballots from the 2025 election in an attempted investigation into what he purported to be potential voter fraud in Riverside County.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Supreme Court both said that he had no right to do that, that there was a clear law as far as the chain of custody for ballots. Even in the course of an investigation, those ballots should have never been taken out of the Registrar of Voters office.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the Supreme Court also affirmed the attorney general’s power to have tried to halt Bianco’s investigation. And I think that’s an important thing to keep an eye on, too. The attorney general really does have very broad powers in California, authority over sheriffs and district attorneys.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But this was one of the first times that court really confronted that question over the limits of their power over sheriffs. And it found that it didn’t set a limit. It basically said this was in Bonta’s authority to have told Bianco, stop this investigation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That could be something with a tail to November or October if we see some kind of, you know, action leading up or after the election on the part of local law enforcement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because I do think state lawmakers, vast majority Democrats, are kind of caught in this push and pull. They’re trying to fend off federal efforts to intercede more in elections, but they’re also dealing with a lot of things popping up at the local level.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, Riverside County was probably the most notable example with Bianco’s investigation, but the state has also been in litigation with Shasta County, where there were efforts to restrict vote-by-mail.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think you see Attorney General Rob Bonta really at the fulcrum here between litigating against the federal government, trying to, you know, prevent changes to vote-by-mail there, but also almost in a whack-a-mole fashion banging on some of these local officials who, you know, he feels might have overstepped their — when it comes to involving themselves in the election process.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, interestingly, Steve writes, “Since 1999, I’ve served as a poll worker in over 20 elections in three different California counties. Anyone who thinks elections are rigged or not secure should serve as a poll worker in just one election. I’ll bet they’d have a very different perspective after that. The problem isn’t with the security of elections on the county level, Steve feels. If there’s the potential for problems, it’s going to be from the intrusion of the current federal administration.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We have another poll worker, Ruth, who writes, “I volunteer for VoteRiders, trying to get voter IDs for people who have the right to vote but lack the ID their state requires. There are 28 million people who meet that definition. It costs $50 for a birth certificate. You need a photo ID to get a Social Security card. You sometimes need a Social Security card to get the photo ID. So it’s easy to fall into a loop where you can’t get an ID. Add in those who don’t drive, the disabled, the old, the young. This is one party trying to make sure these 28 million voices are never heard.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Certainly, we are hearing resoundingly, at least from our listenership today who are contributing, that they very much do not support Proposition 39 and see it as essentially, as you were saying initially, a solution in search of a problem.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Let me go to Laura in Lafayette, who’s on the line. Laura, go ahead.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura:\u003c/strong> Thanks. Thanks for taking my call, Mina. Yeah, I just want to say, you know, there are measures in place to combat voter fraud. And a friend of mine, whose son was studying out of state, she called him, filled out his ballot, put his signature on there — her signature on there — and got a call from the registrar and said, hey, you, this is not his signature.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So just for that, it was obvious that they’re looking at the ballots, they’re the signatures, and so there are measures in place.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Laura, thanks for sharing your experience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Joan writes, “No system is perfect. So a fraction of 1% of votes having problems is as close to perfect as anyone will ever get. If we had a crystal ball, Prop 39 would raise, not lower the voting problems, especially because it is not motivated by good intentions.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Al writes, “I have to prove my identity at Wells Fargo to make a deposit. And I am a customer. My kid had to show photo ID to take the SAT test. I had to ID to register my car at DMV. Is my vote more important? All vote yes.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s the first person that we’ve heard who’s going to vote yes. Thanks for sharing where you’re at with this, Al.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Claude writes, “I’m 76 years old and have voted straight Republican for 40-plus years. Never again. Voter ID is to ensure only Republicans can vote,” in Claude’s opinion.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Marisa.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Like, it is interesting that it’s become so partisan in this moment. And again, like, I think historically that tracks with how things have played out over decades in this nation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Although, to be fair, you know, back during the Jim Crow era, a lot of the folks in the South were Democrats who were trying to suppress the Black vote. I don’t think in itself voter ID is the problem.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But we have not had, like, a good sort of bipartisan effort to come together and figure out a way that would both sort of allow people to have as much access as possible and also have voter ID.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think there are states that have voter ID laws that, you know, are perfectly reasonable and, like I said, that have very high voter —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Turnout.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I think the problem is, like, we just have such a problem with voter participation to begin with in our country and our state particularly. I mean, California does make it as easy as possible. And we still lag other states often in turnout.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so that — that is troubling because our democracy does work better when everyone’s engaged. It does.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And I think you were touching on this earlier, Marisa, if I may, when you were talking about our history with it. Fundamentally, too, there just may be different views with regard to who should vote in this country. Like, who should really be determining the leadership for all of us as a nation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I mean, I think we’ve seen that historically. I remember feeling like that in college, that there was a sense, you know, in a lot of college towns that folks who live there permanently were mad that college students got to say as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think you see this often with the way people talk about, like, yeah, who should have a role in things. And, you know, we all get to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Alona in Richmond writes, “As an experienced volunteer at the polls, I suggest everyone who has doubts about the process of voting in this state also volunteer. It is so much better to make these judgments from knowledge and experience rather than from ignorance and fear.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ve been talking about Prop 39 with Guy Marzorati. Thank you so much, Guy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Thanks, Mina.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And Marisa Lagos.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Thanks, Marisa.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> My pleasure. And with you, listeners, my thanks to you always for sharing where you are and how you are doing on \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Californians in this fall’s election will consider Proposition 39, which asks whether voters should be required to show ID when they cast a ballot. Supporters argue the rules are common-sense safeguards essential for restoring public confidence in elections, while opponents contend they pose identity theft risks and disproportionately disenfranchise low-income, minority, and young voters. We’ll unpack the cases for and against Prop 39 with KQED’s Guy Marzorati and Marisa Lagos. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Californians in this fall’s election will consider Proposition 39, which asks whether voters should be required to show ID when they cast a ballot. Supporters argue the rules are common-sense safeguards essential for restoring public confidence in elections, while opponents contend they pose identity theft risks and disproportionately disenfranchise low-income, minority, and young voters. We’ll unpack the cases for and against Prop 39 with KQED’s Guy Marzorati and Marisa Lagos. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. The president has aggressively pushed for voter ID mandates and restrictions on voting by mail in an effort to rein in an election system that he claims, without evidence, is rife with fraud. So is California’s Proposition 39, which would impose stricter identification requirements on voting in person and by mail, an outgrowth of that? Or is it a common-sense measure to restore confidence in elections, as its supporters say?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. The president has aggressively pushed for voter ID mandates and restrictions on voting by mail in an effort to rein in an election system that he claims, without evidence, is rife with fraud. So is California’s Proposition 39, which would impose stricter identification requirements on voting in person and by mail, an outgrowth of that? Or is it a common-sense measure to restore confidence in elections, as its supporters say?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Joining me to break it all down as you fill out your midterm ballots, Marisa Lagos, correspondent for KQED’s Politics and Government Desk and co-host of Political Breakdown.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Joining me to break it all down as you fill out your midterm ballots, Marisa Lagos, correspondent for KQED’s Politics and Government Desk and co-host of Political Breakdown.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Good morning.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Good morning.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also with us is Guy Marzorati, correspondent on KQED’s politics team as well. Hi, Guy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also with us is Guy Marzorati, correspondent on KQED’s politics team as well. Hi, Guy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Hey, good morning.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Hey, good morning.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So start us off, Guy. What would Prop 39 do if passed?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So start us off, Guy. What would Prop 39 do if passed?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> So Prop 39 would have put in place new requirements for voting in California. For voting in person, it would be presenting a government ID when you vote. But for the vast majority of Californians who vote by mail, it would be a little bit different. You’d actually have to write down a four-digit number from one piece of government ID. So that could be a driver’s license. You’d write that down on the outside of the ballot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> So Prop 39 would have put in place new requirements for voting in California. For voting in person, it would be presenting a government ID when you vote. But for the vast majority of Californians who vote by mail, it would be a little bit different. You’d actually have to write down a four-digit number from one piece of government ID. So that could be a driver’s license. You’d write that down on the outside of the ballot.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But there were a lot of outstanding questions about how that would actually work. Each of us would have to, if this passes, choose which government ID we’re going to be using as part of that vote-by-mail ID program. And so, in essence — and this would have to be worked out in some form or fashion — you’d have 23 million registered voters all basically having to re-register, pick which identification they’ll be using, so that when they do write down that four-digit number on their ballot envelope, it can be double-checked once the vote is cast.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But there were a lot of outstanding questions about how that would actually work. Each of us would have to, if this passes, choose which government ID we’re going to be using as part of that vote-by-mail ID program. And so, in essence — and this would have to be worked out in some form or fashion — you’d have 23 million registered voters all basically having to re-register, pick which identification they’ll be using, so that when they do write down that four-digit number on their ballot envelope, it can be double-checked once the vote is cast.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Would it also add requirements with regard to auditing or, you know, checking voter rolls?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, there’s another provision in this ballot measure that asks both state election officials, the secretary of state and county election officials to double-check whether the voters on the rolls are citizens. And it says they have to do so using, quote, “their best effort.” But that’s another area of this proposition that would have to be defined in the future by the state legislature. What does that mean for these election officials to be using their best efforts to check whether the folks on the voter rolls are actually citizens? I think —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, there’s another provision in this ballot measure that asks both state election officials, the secretary of state and county election officials to double-check whether the voters on the rolls are citizens. And it says they have to do so using, quote, “their best effort.” But that’s another area of this proposition that would have to be defined in the future by the state legislature. What does that mean for these election officials to be using their best efforts to check whether the folks on the voter rolls are actually citizens? I think —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I mean, something they would argue they’re already doing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and the legislature would have to define that. And they could. It’s a Democratic-controlled legislature. The vast majority of members don’t even think that this proposition should be made law. You could easily end up in a situation where, if this does pass, the legislature basically signs off on the work that election officials are already doing as a way to confirm, under the way this measure is written, that folks on the rolls are citizens.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and the legislature would have to define that. And they could. It’s a Democratic-controlled legislature. The vast majority of members don’t even think that this proposition should be made law. You could easily end up in a situation where, if this does pass, the legislature basically signs off on the work that election officials are already doing as a way to confirm, under the way this measure is written, that folks on the rolls are citizens.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Marisa, who put this measure on the ballot?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I mean, the main proponent is Carl DeMaio. He’s a longtime San Diego kind of politician. He hosted a radio show. I don’t know if he was quite a shock jock, but like sort of in that, like, right-wing radio, you know, and he really came to prominence in San Diego like 20 years ago when he was on the City Council and was kind of leading the fight to try to strip public employees of some of the retirement benefits. This was during a lot of concern about pension benefits being over-generous. And I think a lot of people, including Democrats, had concerns and felt that it needed to be reined in.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I mean, the main proponent is Carl DeMaio. He’s a longtime San Diego kind of politician. He hosted a radio show. I don’t know if he was quite a shock jock, but like sort of in that, like, right-wing radio, you know, and he really came to prominence in San Diego like 20 years ago when he was on the City Council and was kind of leading the fight to try to strip public employees of some of the retirement benefits. This was during a lot of concern about pension benefits being over-generous. And I think a lot of people, including Democrats, had concerns and felt that it needed to be reined in.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But DeMaio really angered a lot of public employee unions because he tried to actually claw back benefits that had already been promised to people instead of sort of making it moving forward. He went on, as I said, to kind of gain right-wing prominence with his radio show and then eventually has come to the state legislature. And he’s really the main person behind it, but it really is this coalition of him, other legislative Republicans. And then now we’re seeing a lot of support from national figures from, like, the MAGA movement who are pouring in money and supporting this.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But DeMaio really angered a lot of public employee unions because he tried to actually claw back benefits that had already been promised to people instead of sort of making it moving forward. He went on, as I said, to kind of gain right-wing prominence with his radio show and then eventually has come to the state legislature. And he’s really the main person behind it, but it really is this coalition of him, other legislative Republicans. And then now we’re seeing a lot of support from national figures from, like, the MAGA movement who are pouring in money and supporting this.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And what does DeMaio say about why this proposition is needed?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> You know, I think DeMaio understands the politics of the state better than probably the president. So I will say this is a far less sort of extreme measure than what Trump has been pushing. But he’s making the same arguments, right, that there’s fraud in our system, that we need to ensure that, you know, everybody who’s voting is a legitimate citizen. And I mean, it’s the same argument we’ve been hearing from Trump, I would say.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> You know, I think DeMaio understands the politics of the state better than probably the president. So I will say this is a far less sort of extreme measure than what Trump has been pushing. But he’s making the same arguments, right, that there’s fraud in our system, that we need to ensure that, you know, everybody who’s voting is a legitimate citizen. And I mean, it’s the same argument we’ve been hearing from Trump, I would say.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> But to Marisa’s point, DeMaio has, you know, gone on media throughout the state making the pitch for Prop 39. And I think in a lot of forums, he’s presented it as a way to kind of silence critiques about voter fraud. I mean, in one instance, he said, if you want to shut up the people who are raising these conspiracy theories, pass Proposition 39 and then they won’t be raising them anymore. Which would be still open. I don’t think he’s, you know, run that by the president. You know, I think that’s still an open question. But he’s, I think, in trying to appeal to folks beyond Republicans, have said, look, all this discussion about trust in elections and voter fraud will end if we pass Prop 39. I think there’s a lot of research that points to voters’ feelings about the security of elections being driven much more by bipartisan messaging than by actual voter laws.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> But to Marisa’s point, DeMaio has, you know, gone on media throughout the state making the pitch for Prop 39. And I think in a lot of forums, he’s presented it as a way to kind of silence critiques about voter fraud. I mean, in one instance, he said, if you want to shut up the people who are raising these conspiracy theories, pass Proposition 39 and then they won’t be raising them anymore. Which would be still open. I don’t think he’s, you know, run that by the president. You know, I think that’s still an open question. But he’s, I think, in trying to appeal to folks beyond Republicans, have said, look, all this discussion about trust in elections and voter fraud will end if we pass Prop 39. I think there’s a lot of research that points to voters’ feelings about the security of elections being driven much more by bipartisan messaging than by actual voter laws.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Is this measure, you know, in coordination with President Trump?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> President Trump has not explicitly endorsed Proposition 39. He did say in early 2025, after those wildfires in Southern California, that California’s ability to get federal funding should come after the state passes voter ID. So he’s expressed support for California to enact some kind of system of voter ID. He has not explicitly endorsed Prop 39 since it made it to the ballot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> President Trump has not explicitly endorsed Proposition 39. He did say in early 2025, after those wildfires in Southern California, that California’s ability to get federal funding should come after the state passes voter ID. So he’s expressed support for California to enact some kind of system of voter ID. He has not explicitly endorsed Prop 39 since it made it to the ballot.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And I would argue that that’s intentional. Right? Trump’s historically unpopular here in California. I think that there’s a real sense that him — he is already so associated with these efforts that I think if you look at the polling and the way Democrats are responding, they’re probably making that connection anyway. But I think it’s likely that folks like DeMaio were sort of like, maybe just stay out of this one.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And I would argue that that’s intentional. Right? Trump’s historically unpopular here in California. I think that there’s a real sense that him — he is already so associated with these efforts that I think if you look at the polling and the way Democrats are responding, they’re probably making that connection anyway. But I think it’s likely that folks like DeMaio were sort of like, maybe just stay out of this one.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So then let’s talk about the opponents. What do they say is wrong with requiring voters to show ID when they cast a ballot or to write that kind of information on a ballot envelope that they’re mailing in, Guy?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So then let’s talk about the opponents. What do they say is wrong with requiring voters to show ID when they cast a ballot or to write that kind of information on a ballot envelope that they’re mailing in, Guy?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I think the most common argument you hear against Prop 39 is that it’s a solution in search of a problem. We don’t have voter fraud occurring throughout California. Why is there a need, then, they would argue, to enact a new system that is purported to crack down on that fraud?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I think the most common argument you hear against Prop 39 is that it’s a solution in search of a problem. We don’t have voter fraud occurring throughout California. Why is there a need, then, they would argue, to enact a new system that is purported to crack down on that fraud?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think you also hear arguments about how this would add — you can call it hassles, you can call it hurdles — to actually voting by mail. I think that the piece of this that relates to in-person voting is much more simple and straightforward, right? Right now, when you go to vote in person, you usually sign the poll book next to your name. That’s not really checked. This would actually make it more secure in that case to vote in person because you’d be presenting ID.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think you also hear arguments about how this would add — you can call it hassles, you can call it hurdles — to actually voting by mail. I think that the piece of this that relates to in-person voting is much more simple and straightforward, right? Right now, when you go to vote in person, you usually sign the poll book next to your name. That’s not really checked. This would actually make it more secure in that case to vote in person because you’d be presenting ID.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But again, the vast majority, 80% in our last general election, voted by mail. So when you’re talking about this in California, we really have to talk about this through the lens of vote by mail, and it would create new systems to vote by mail. Again, writing down that four-digit number, where is that number coming from, having people pick that — it would add these new complications and these new systems to voting by mail. So it’s a very different conversation when you’re talking about voter ID in California than in the rest of the country, where we don’t have as much prevalence in a lot of states of vote by mail, and you see most states in the country do have some sort of voter ID.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But again, the vast majority, 80% in our last general election, voted by mail. So when you’re talking about this in California, we really have to talk about this through the lens of vote by mail, and it would create new systems to vote by mail. Again, writing down that four-digit number, where is that number coming from, having people pick that — it would add these new complications and these new systems to voting by mail. So it’s a very different conversation when you’re talking about voter ID in California than in the rest of the country, where we don’t have as much prevalence in a lot of states of vote by mail, and you see most states in the country do have some sort of voter ID.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So it would be the last four digits of a Social Security number and your entire driver’s license number, or?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So it would be the last four digits of a Social Security number and your entire driver’s license number, or?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> So it could be any government ID. You would get to pick that, which ID you use.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> So it could be any government ID. You would get to pick that, which ID you use.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> But you would have to stick with it, which is, I think, part of the concern. Yeah, the other reason I’m asking is because opponents have also raised concerns about identity theft related to this.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> But you would have to stick with it, which is, I think, part of the concern. Yeah, the other reason I’m asking is because opponents have also raised concerns about identity theft related to this.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right. Because this number would be on the outside of your ballot envelope. So there are concerns that if you’re writing down the last four digits, let’s say, your driver’s license, with your signature there, could that open the door to identity theft?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right. Because this number would be on the outside of your ballot envelope. So there are concerns that if you’re writing down the last four digits, let’s say, your driver’s license, with your signature there, could that open the door to identity theft?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I also think when you’re talking about this through the context of vote by mail, there are already a lot more security checks with vote by mail than voting in person. Again, when you vote in person, you sign that poll book. No one’s really double-checking that. When you vote by mail, that signature that you sign on your ballot envelope is being checked against your signature on file. That’s part of why it takes longer to count the vote in California.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I also think when you’re talking about this through the context of vote by mail, there are already a lot more security checks with vote by mail than voting in person. Again, when you vote in person, you sign that poll book. No one’s really double-checking that. When you vote by mail, that signature that you sign on your ballot envelope is being checked against your signature on file. That’s part of why it takes longer to count the vote in California.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But those security measures are already in place, and I think opponents of Prop 39 would say, well, then why do we need this whole new system involving writing down this number on the envelope?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But those security measures are already in place, and I think opponents of Prop 39 would say, well, then why do we need this whole new system involving writing down this number on the envelope?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. The other thing that they raise are issues about voters of certain groups being disproportionately affected, right? Low-income —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. The other thing that they raise are issues about voters of certain groups being disproportionately affected, right? Low-income —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Young voters.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Young voters.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Talk about that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Talk about that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. I mean, I think any time we talk about voter access and hurdles to voting, young voters are oftentimes the most impacted. And that can be for a variety of reasons, being new to the experience of voting, moving around, changing addresses.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. I mean, I think any time we talk about voter access and hurdles to voting, young voters are oftentimes the most impacted. And that can be for a variety of reasons, being new to the experience of voting, moving around, changing addresses.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When we talk about votes that get rejected in California, oftentimes because ballots arrive too late, or there are signature issues, younger voters are overrepresented in that pool of ballots that tend to get rejected. And so I think the concern here with Prop 39 is, again, you add potentially this new requirement of having to select a form of identification that young voters would be the most impacted by that. Maybe not following up with that first request for, hey, you need to specify which ID you’re using.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When we talk about votes that get rejected in California, oftentimes because ballots arrive too late, or there are signature issues, younger voters are overrepresented in that pool of ballots that tend to get rejected. And so I think the concern here with Prop 39 is, again, you add potentially this new requirement of having to select a form of identification that young voters would be the most impacted by that. Maybe not following up with that first request for, hey, you need to specify which ID you’re using.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me invite listeners into the conversation. Listeners, how do you feel about Prop 39? What are your questions about it? You can email Forum at kqed.org, find us on Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum. Or you can call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me invite listeners into the conversation. Listeners, how do you feel about Prop 39? What are your questions about it? You can email Forum at kqed.org, find us on Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum. Or you can call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Douglas on Discord writes, “I don’t see a need for it. Voter fraud is incredibly rare. This costs money. Why spend money fighting something that almost never happens?”\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Douglas on Discord writes, “I don’t see a need for it. Voter fraud is incredibly rare. This costs money. Why spend money fighting something that almost never happens?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Discord user Steve writes, “I would support voter ID laws, but only after we make the big push, likely a multi-year effort, to get adequate IDs into the hands of everyone qualified to vote. Otherwise, it’s just another form of an illegal poll tax.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Discord user Steve writes, “I would support voter ID laws, but only after we make the big push, likely a multi-year effort, to get adequate IDs into the hands of everyone qualified to vote. Otherwise, it’s just another form of an illegal poll tax.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> That’s a great point about having a universal ID for this, because the way Prop 39 is written is that any voter can request a voting ID, basically can ask the state, hey, you’ve passed Prop 39, can I have a voting ID? But it wouldn’t be just sent by default to everybody. So that’s an important point that that listener raises.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> That’s a great point about having a universal ID for this, because the way Prop 39 is written is that any voter can request a voting ID, basically can ask the state, hey, you’ve passed Prop 39, can I have a voting ID? But it wouldn’t be just sent by default to everybody. So that’s an important point that that listener raises.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And Marisa, you know, Guy was mentioning — and you were mentioning — the fact that when, you know, votes are thrown out, if it’s not for fraud, what are the most common reasons the ballots get tossed?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And Marisa, you know, Guy was mentioning — and you were mentioning — the fact that when, you know, votes are thrown out, if it’s not for fraud, what are the most common reasons the ballots get tossed?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, people just don’t fill them out correctly, right? I mean, the signature matching is one thing, but often registrars really go above and beyond to try to ensure that if a signature doesn’t look matched, that they follow up with voters even, which again delays the count.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, people just don’t fill them out correctly, right? I mean, the signature matching is one thing, but often registrars really go above and beyond to try to ensure that if a signature doesn’t look matched, that they follow up with voters even, which again delays the count.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I think that you have to do things properly. There’s a set of steps you need to fill out the bubbles with a black pen, right? Like, you need not a pencil, or I don’t think blue is accepted. Is that correct?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I think that you have to do things properly. There’s a set of steps you need to fill out the bubbles with a black pen, right? Like, you need not a pencil, or I don’t think blue is accepted. Is that correct?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> In some cases, yeah, ideally, yeah.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> In some cases, yeah, ideally, yeah.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> You know, you need to put it in the envelope correctly, sign it, date it. Like, there’s just all these steps. And I think that, you know, what people who oppose these types of voter ID measures say is, like, any — it’s already so hard to get people to vote. Like, any extra barriers are going to both, you know, dissuade some people from voting at all or potentially, you know, have others invalidate their —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> You know, you need to put it in the envelope correctly, sign it, date it. Like, there’s just all these steps. And I think that, you know, what people who oppose these types of voter ID measures say is, like, any — it’s already so hard to get people to vote. Like, any extra barriers are going to both, you know, dissuade some people from voting at all or potentially, you know, have others invalidate their —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> And I’ll say, I mean, we can just look recently to our last election in June. Almost 2% of all vote-by-mail ballots were rejected. And the biggest reason was they didn’t arrive on time. You know, people waited a long time to vote. And in some cases, that ballot just was not postmarked by Election Day.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> And I’ll say, I mean, we can just look recently to our last election in June. Almost 2% of all vote-by-mail ballots were rejected. And the biggest reason was they didn’t arrive on time. You know, people waited a long time to vote. And in some cases, that ballot just was not postmarked by Election Day.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes, and interestingly, that marks a pretty significant increase, too, in the number of rejected ballots. But it sounds like you’re essentially saying, Marisa, that there is a robust process in place for vote verification, and also the penalties are pretty steep if you tried to commit voter fraud.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes, and interestingly, that marks a pretty significant increase, too, in the number of rejected ballots. But it sounds like you’re essentially saying, Marisa, that there is a robust process in place for vote verification, and also the penalties are pretty steep if you tried to commit voter fraud.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. And I mean, the reason we hear about voter fraud is because it’s so rare that when it does happen, it gets prosecuted. Right. And so I think, like, that’s something people who want these type of laws make, you know, hey, I’ve — say, oh, well, look, somebody registered their dog in Orange County. Well, she did it on purpose. First of all, we can talk about that later.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. And I mean, the reason we hear about voter fraud is because it’s so rare that when it does happen, it gets prosecuted. Right. And so I think, like, that’s something people who want these type of laws make, you know, hey, I’ve — say, oh, well, look, somebody registered their dog in Orange County. Well, she did it on purpose. First of all, we can talk about that later.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Marisa Lagos and Guy Marzorati about Prop 39 and with you, listeners. Stay with us. More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Marisa Lagos and Guy Marzorati about Prop 39 and with you, listeners. Stay with us. More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. We’re talking this hour about Proposition 39, a ballot measure that would institute stricter voter ID requirements. Voters would be required to show ID when they cast their ballot, in addition to when they register, which is what they do now, or to show some kind of identifying information on the outside of their mail-in ballot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. We’re talking this hour about Proposition 39, a ballot measure that would institute stricter voter ID requirements. Voters would be required to show ID when they cast their ballot, in addition to when they register, which is what they do now, or to show some kind of identifying information on the outside of their mail-in ballot.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Supporters argue the rules are common-sense safeguards, essential for restoring public confidence in elections, while opponents contend that they would disproportionately disenfranchise certain voters, like young voters. It could also pose some identity theft risks with you writing information on the outside of your ballot envelope.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Supporters argue the rules are common-sense safeguards, essential for restoring public confidence in elections, while opponents contend that they would disproportionately disenfranchise certain voters, like young voters. It could also pose some identity theft risks with you writing information on the outside of your ballot envelope.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Marisa Lagos is a correspondent on KQED’s politics desk, co-host of Political Breakdown. Guy Marzorati is also a correspondent on KQED’s California Politics and Government Desk. And you, our listeners, are joining the conversation. You can tell us how you’re planning to vote on Prop 39, your questions about it, and also what you want to know about the status of mail-in voting, which is very connected to this. And there’s been some recent developments around that as well.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Marisa Lagos is a correspondent on KQED’s politics desk, co-host of Political Breakdown. Guy Marzorati is also a correspondent on KQED’s California Politics and Government Desk. And you, our listeners, are joining the conversation. You can tell us how you’re planning to vote on Prop 39, your questions about it, and also what you want to know about the status of mail-in voting, which is very connected to this. And there’s been some recent developments around that as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The email address is forum at kqed.org. Find us on Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum. Call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>The email address is forum at kqed.org. Find us on Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum. Call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Paul writes, “I’m a fan of the if-it-ain’t-broke, don’t-fix-it camp. We’ve had safe, secure, fraud-free elections for decades. Unless someone can come up with actual evidence of a problem with ineligible people casting ballots, I see no reason to create extra expense and inconvenience for both voters and election officials.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Paul writes, “I’m a fan of the if-it-ain’t-broke, don’t-fix-it camp. We’ve had safe, secure, fraud-free elections for decades. Unless someone can come up with actual evidence of a problem with ineligible people casting ballots, I see no reason to create extra expense and inconvenience for both voters and election officials.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I want to take just a little bit of a step back and look at the status of the president’s efforts to restrict vote by mail. Not only because more than 80% of Californians now vote by mail, which I think is pretty incredible, according to the latest Secretary of State’s office, and would be affected by the type of rules that Proposition 39 would bring if passed. But also because there have been some recent developments that we can talk more into later, that the president has sort of changed his tune on voting by mail, even though he chooses to vote that way himself.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I want to take just a little bit of a step back and look at the status of the president’s efforts to restrict vote by mail. Not only because more than 80% of Californians now vote by mail, which I think is pretty incredible, according to the latest Secretary of State’s office, and would be affected by the type of rules that Proposition 39 would bring if passed. But also because there have been some recent developments that we can talk more into later, that the president has sort of changed his tune on voting by mail, even though he chooses to vote that way himself.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But let’s just sort of step back and remember some of the initial steps the president took to try to restrict vote by mail. There was that executive order in March that directed federal agencies to take a series of steps on mail-in voting. Remind us what some of those were, Marisa.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But let’s just sort of step back and remember some of the initial steps the president took to try to restrict vote by mail. There was that executive order in March that directed federal agencies to take a series of steps on mail-in voting. Remind us what some of those were, Marisa.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, he’s made a number of attempts. I think there’s a previous executive order in 2025 as well, and that one’s the one this year sort of built on it. Essentially, there’s a couple buckets here.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, he’s made a number of attempts. I think there’s a previous executive order in 2025 as well, and that one’s the one this year sort of built on it. Essentially, there’s a couple buckets here.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I mean, one is that the federal government has been trying to force the states to essentially share their voter rolls with the feds and run them against, you know, whatever list the federal government has created of eligible citizens who can vote.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I mean, one is that the federal government has been trying to force the states to essentially share their voter rolls with the feds and run them against, you know, whatever list the federal government has created of eligible citizens who can vote.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s interesting, the problem with this. I was just doing an event with David Becker at the Center for Election Integrity and Research, and he was saying, you know, actually, states have much more accurate information about you and I, like, because I think some people would be like, why shouldn’t we share this with the federal government? But the truth is, like, the feds don’t have necessarily your Social Security number linked to your driver’s license number linked to other information about you. The state does.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It’s interesting, the problem with this. I was just doing an event with David Becker at the Center for Election Integrity and Research, and he was saying, you know, actually, states have much more accurate information about you and I, like, because I think some people would be like, why shouldn’t we share this with the federal government? But the truth is, like, the feds don’t have necessarily your Social Security number linked to your driver’s license number linked to other information about you. The state does.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so there’s been a huge pushback. Some Republican states have shared this information and handed over their voter rolls. States like California and many others, including some Republican states, have really balked, pushed back, sued. The courts have upheld that. So that information has not been passed on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so there’s been a huge pushback. Some Republican states have shared this information and handed over their voter rolls. States like California and many others, including some Republican states, have really balked, pushed back, sued. The courts have upheld that. So that information has not been passed on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, another bucket was, of course, the SAVE Act, which he has unsuccessfully tried to get through Congress, which would have been a very draconian voter ID measure. That would have required, potentially, basically made millions of people, or at least hundreds of thousands, ineligible to vote because you would have had to have your birth certificate match your current ID. And obviously, for women who got married and changed their name, for people — there’s a long list of people who would have been affected by that. Again, even Republicans in Congress have not been willing, or at the least in the —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, another bucket was, of course, the SAVE Act, which he has unsuccessfully tried to get through Congress, which would have been a very draconian voter ID measure. That would have required, potentially, basically made millions of people, or at least hundreds of thousands, ineligible to vote because you would have had to have your birth certificate match your current ID. And obviously, for women who got married and changed their name, for people — there’s a long list of people who would have been affected by that. Again, even Republicans in Congress have not been willing, or at the least in the —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The biggest fight that we see play out most recently as related to that executive order has been around the Postal Service’s role, or historic lack of role, in sort of overseeing election mail. And so the president wanted USPS to essentially have its own list of eligible voters and only send ballots to those people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The biggest fight that we see play out most recently as related to that executive order has been around the Postal Service’s role, or historic lack of role, in sort of overseeing election mail. And so the president wanted USPS to essentially have its own list of eligible voters and only send ballots to those people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So really injecting this federal agency that has never had any sort of contact with voting and elections into this entire process. Again, that’s been litigated. The Supreme Court upheld some lower court rulings, although mostly their decision, I think this is going to come back up, because what the Supreme Court said is essentially it’s too close to this election to do it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So really injecting this federal agency that has never had any sort of contact with voting and elections into this entire process. Again, that’s been litigated. The Supreme Court upheld some lower court rulings, although mostly their decision, I think this is going to come back up, because what the Supreme Court said is essentially it’s too close to this election to do it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Lower courts have also said, look, Congress would need to delegate this responsibility to USPS. The president wanted the Postal Service to create special envelopes that would be the only ones you could use.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Lower courts have also said, look, Congress would need to delegate this responsibility to USPS. The president wanted the Postal Service to create special envelopes that would be the only ones you could use.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There’s a lot of concerns about this, most notably that this is not an agency that has any training around this. And also that we do have a very prescribed legal system around who gets to touch ballots in our country. It’s called chain of custody.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There’s a lot of concerns about this, most notably that this is not an agency that has any training around this. And also that we do have a very prescribed legal system around who gets to touch ballots in our country. It’s called chain of custody.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Folks probably heard it brought up in relation to that case in Riverside where the sheriff, Chad Bianco, seized tens of thousands of ballots and was slapped down by the California Supreme Court recently. You know, the reason for that is, like, we sort of consider these ballots sacred once they’re being, you know, before they’re counted, and even afterward, they are a record of, you know, what’s at the heart of our democracy. And if you break that chain of custody, it can undermine election results.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Folks probably heard it brought up in relation to that case in Riverside where the sheriff, Chad Bianco, seized tens of thousands of ballots and was slapped down by the California Supreme Court recently. You know, the reason for that is, like, we sort of consider these ballots sacred once they’re being, you know, before they’re counted, and even afterward, they are a record of, you know, what’s at the heart of our democracy. And if you break that chain of custody, it can undermine election results.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I think the USPS stuff has really raised a lot of concerns. And again, you know, obviously, the president’s most loyal supporters are behind him. But I really think you have to look at how many of these election officials, a lot of whom are nonpartisan right on the local level, but also Republican secretaries of state in some cases, have stood up and been like, get out of here, we do not want the federal government messing with a system that goes remarkably well given how many —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I think the USPS stuff has really raised a lot of concerns. And again, you know, obviously, the president’s most loyal supporters are behind him. But I really think you have to look at how many of these election officials, a lot of whom are nonpartisan right on the local level, but also Republican secretaries of state in some cases, have stood up and been like, get out of here, we do not want the federal government messing with a system that goes remarkably well given how many —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Vote. The other thing that’s shaken voters, right, Guy, was the fact that there was a USPS whistleblower who basically said that the agency was sort of preparing to follow Trump’s executive order to some extent even though it had not been determined in the courts whether this was legal.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Vote. The other thing that’s shaken voters, right, Guy, was the fact that there was a USPS whistleblower who basically said that the agency was sort of preparing to follow Trump’s executive order to some extent even though it had not been determined in the courts whether this was legal.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right. To push ahead with it regardless. And I think a big question, and Marisa raised as well, is just about the information that the federal government has versus the state has. And this executive order not only would have required states to put together a list of eligible voters, it also would have given the Department of Homeland Security a role in creating a list.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right. To push ahead with it regardless. And I think a big question, and Marisa raised as well, is just about the information that the federal government has versus the state has. And this executive order not only would have required states to put together a list of eligible voters, it also would have given the Department of Homeland Security a role in creating a list.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Have, like, approved voters, right, who would receive ballots. Right. And basically —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Have, like, approved voters, right, who would receive ballots. Right. And basically —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right, and basically double-checking between those two lists, what the state provides to the feds and the list the federal government puts together. And to Marisa’s point, the information that the Department of Homeland Security might have to put together such a list could potentially be incomplete.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right, and basically double-checking between those two lists, what the state provides to the feds and the list the federal government puts together. And to Marisa’s point, the information that the Department of Homeland Security might have to put together such a list could potentially be incomplete.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so then you’d have basically them going between the state information, federal government information, and a big picture giving the USPS more power over vote-by-mail that they’ve never really had. I mean, the states have always had the authority over administering elections. This would have been a real departure from that in granting the USPS this authority.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so then you’d have basically them going between the state information, federal government information, and a big picture giving the USPS more power over vote-by-mail that they’ve never really had. I mean, the states have always had the authority over administering elections. This would have been a real departure from that in granting the USPS this authority.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And then, Guy, there was also that recent investigation from ProPublica that the Trump administration would have disrupted mail-in voting even further by requiring ballots to be delivered through certified mail. What would that have meant?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And then, Guy, there was also that recent investigation from ProPublica that the Trump administration would have disrupted mail-in voting even further by requiring ballots to be delivered through certified mail. What would that have meant?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s a great question. I mean, in practice, like, how that actually would have worked, given the timelines of getting ballots out. Yeah, signing for the ballot as you would for certified mail. So, you know, I think — and especially the time — I think we have to think about, like, the timeline of a lot of these executive orders and the litigation around them. Ballots are ready, going out. I mean, in some states, they’ve been sent out. In California, this is the week where a lot of people are receiving their ballots in the mail. The court of the Supreme Court has always been hesitant to adjudicate election-related issues close to an election, and we certainly are close to election, given how many Americans already have their ballots and —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s a great question. I mean, in practice, like, how that actually would have worked, given the timelines of getting ballots out. Yeah, signing for the ballot as you would for certified mail. So, you know, I think — and especially the time — I think we have to think about, like, the timeline of a lot of these executive orders and the litigation around them. Ballots are ready, going out. I mean, in some states, they’ve been sent out. In California, this is the week where a lot of people are receiving their ballots in the mail. The court of the Supreme Court has always been hesitant to adjudicate election-related issues close to an election, and we certainly are close to election, given how many Americans already have their ballots and —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me go to some calls coming in. Omar in San Francisco, go ahead. You’re on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me go to some calls coming in. Omar in San Francisco, go ahead. You’re on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Omar:\u003c/strong> Hey, Mina. So this is just another attempt in a roundabout way of the Orange Foolius trying to create issues with the process that works. You know, absolutely great. They’re basically, and I hate to use this term, you know, Henny-Pennying or Chicken Littling the voting process to create a sense of fear or even complacency where they’re like, okay, we just don’t even wanna deal with it. And I think it’s just gotten ridiculous.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Omar:\u003c/strong> Hey, Mina. So this is just another attempt in a roundabout way of the Orange Foolius trying to create issues with the process that works. You know, absolutely great. They’re basically, and I hate to use this term, you know, Henny-Pennying or Chicken Littling the voting process to create a sense of fear or even complacency where they’re like, okay, we just don’t even wanna deal with it. And I think it’s just gotten ridiculous.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Like, we’ve been put up with this for four years once. We’re about two years through the process again. I know we’ll survive as a country. But how — how bad will we be after, you know?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Like, we’ve been put up with this for four years once. We’re about two years through the process again. I know we’ll survive as a country. But how — how bad will we be after, you know?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Omar, thanks for sharing where you’re at. I think you’re not alone.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Omar, thanks for sharing where you’re at. I think you’re not alone.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Babesh writes, “The whole issue of voter fraud is a big lie perpetrated by Donald Trump. It’s sad that we’re wasting so much national energy and time discussing a non-issue, and it’s also corrosive in the long run to our democracy by reducing the faith in elections. The problem we should actually solve is how to get more people to vote in a democracy.”\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Babesh writes, “The whole issue of voter fraud is a big lie perpetrated by Donald Trump. It’s sad that we’re wasting so much national energy and time discussing a non-issue, and it’s also corrosive in the long run to our democracy by reducing the faith in elections. The problem we should actually solve is how to get more people to vote in a democracy.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Interestingly, though, the way this is polling — and was polling initially, too — it looked like it had a lot of bipartisan support.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Interestingly, though, the way this is polling — and was polling initially, too — it looked like it had a lot of bipartisan support.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the polling around voter ID is fascinating because, taken in a vacuum, the idea of requiring identification before people vote, adding that extra level of security, is popular.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the polling around voter ID is fascinating because, taken in a vacuum, the idea of requiring identification before people vote, adding that extra level of security, is popular.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Even in California, I mean, Berkeley, this is the best snapshot we have of this. In the spring, Berkeley did a survey where they asked voters about just that idea: What is being proposed in Proposition 39, voter ID at the polls and also through by mail. Fifty-six percent of voters approved of that idea.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Even in California, I mean, Berkeley, this is the best snapshot we have of this. In the spring, Berkeley did a survey where they asked voters about just that idea: What is being proposed in Proposition 39, voter ID at the polls and also through by mail. Fifty-six percent of voters approved of that idea.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They then said, okay, well, what if we tell you a little bit more about the arguments for and against, some of the, you know, pros and cons that we’ve discussed on this show? It suddenly dropped to about even — 37% yes, 35% no.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>They then said, okay, well, what if we tell you a little bit more about the arguments for and against, some of the, you know, pros and cons that we’ve discussed on this show? It suddenly dropped to about even — 37% yes, 35% no.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Then they asked, okay, well, I’m going to tell you who’s supporting this idea and who’s opposing it. All of a sudden, completely flipped. Yes down to 39%, no 52%.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Then they asked, okay, well, I’m going to tell you who’s supporting this idea and who’s opposing it. All of a sudden, completely flipped. Yes down to 39%, no 52%.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So we go from 56% yes to 39% yes based on who’s actually lining up for and against this idea. That 39% yes is exactly where Prop 39 is still polling.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>So we go from 56% yes to 39% yes based on who’s actually lining up for and against this idea. That 39% yes is exactly where Prop 39 is still polling.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So more than anything, I think this measure and this idea has been incredibly red- and blue-coded. As soon as voters are aware of the groups behind it and the supporters of it, their support for the idea plummets.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So more than anything, I think this measure and this idea has been incredibly red- and blue-coded. As soon as voters are aware of the groups behind it and the supporters of it, their support for the idea plummets.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, I think Lane is sort of related here. Lane in San Francisco writes, “I think many people may have the attitude that it is not that difficult to just show identification if you want to vote,” which we may attribute to the fact that it was polling pretty evenly initially.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, I think Lane is sort of related here. Lane in San Francisco writes, “I think many people may have the attitude that it is not that difficult to just show identification if you want to vote,” which we may attribute to the fact that it was polling pretty evenly initially.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Lane writes, “Please clarify for listeners the many reasons why it may be difficult for some people to get ID. What about all of the fire victims that have lost their documents? What about foster children that may not have access to their birth certificates and other documents required to get identification?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Lane writes, “Please clarify for listeners the many reasons why it may be difficult for some people to get ID. What about all of the fire victims that have lost their documents? What about foster children that may not have access to their birth certificates and other documents required to get identification?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So there is a step, of course, to prove that you are eligible to vote through the registration process, but yes, there’s lots of reasons that documents are tough to get.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So there is a step, of course, to prove that you are eligible to vote through the registration process, but yes, there’s lots of reasons that documents are tough to get.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And it’s why in many states, even states that have voter ID rules, oftentimes you’ll see provisions that voters can still bring forth identification that’s not like your driver’s license. Arizona, for example, you can bring a utility bill and, like, a bank statement. Others are more strict and they really will require a photo ID requirement.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And it’s why in many states, even states that have voter ID rules, oftentimes you’ll see provisions that voters can still bring forth identification that’s not like your driver’s license. Arizona, for example, you can bring a utility bill and, like, a bank statement. Others are more strict and they really will require a photo ID requirement.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But even states that have gone ahead and enacted voter ID, I think understand in some cases that the actual photo ID as the sole document you have to provide can in some cases be challenging for people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But even states that have gone ahead and enacted voter ID, I think understand in some cases that the actual photo ID as the sole document you have to provide can in some cases be challenging for people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> But I also think we need to put this in the context of our history and the voter suppression efforts that have occurred and have often been very racially motivated. I’m thinking about, obviously, coming out of slavery and the Jim Crow era and the idea that there are states in this day and age who will say, you can use your gun license as a voter ID, but you may not use a student ID.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> But I also think we need to put this in the context of our history and the voter suppression efforts that have occurred and have often been very racially motivated. I’m thinking about, obviously, coming out of slavery and the Jim Crow era and the idea that there are states in this day and age who will say, you can use your gun license as a voter ID, but you may not use a student ID.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so, like, I think — again, I think some of the opposition to these laws, like, yes, it sounds sort of reasonable, and in some ways it is, right, to say, and we all do show an ID, we all prove who we are when we register to vote in California. But this is a country that has a long history of using these types of laws to particularly suppress the votes of certain populations.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so, like, I think — again, I think some of the opposition to these laws, like, yes, it sounds sort of reasonable, and in some ways it is, right, to say, and we all do show an ID, we all prove who we are when we register to vote in California. But this is a country that has a long history of using these types of laws to particularly suppress the votes of certain populations.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I just, like, I think we have to put that in context, and I think it also speaks to why, when voters learn more about this in a state like California that is deep blue, in this hyper-partisan moment, when people are so angry at the president, it explains why people are like, mm, I’m good on this, you know?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I just, like, I think we have to put that in context, and I think it also speaks to why, when voters learn more about this in a state like California that is deep blue, in this hyper-partisan moment, when people are so angry at the president, it explains why people are like, mm, I’m good on this, you know?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think, like, this is not really as much on either side in some ways about the policy. It’s about the sort of moment and the distrust.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>I think, like, this is not really as much on either side in some ways about the policy. It’s about the sort of moment and the distrust.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> If this goes down in California, Marisa, do you think that essentially this issue — it will be the end of this issue in this state? Or do you think that there will be an attempt to try to re-energize it and bring it back up later?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> If this goes down in California, Marisa, do you think that essentially this issue — it will be the end of this issue in this state? Or do you think that there will be an attempt to try to re-energize it and bring it back up later?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I mean, that’s an interesting question. How many times have we seen ballot measures fail and then come back? I don’t know. I do think this is a bit of a canary in the coal mine for Republicans. I’m not sure we’ll see it come back right away. If it fails, I think it would depend on how close it is, what else is going on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I mean, that’s an interesting question. How many times have we seen ballot measures fail and then come back? I don’t know. I do think this is a bit of a canary in the coal mine for Republicans. I’m not sure we’ll see it come back right away. If it fails, I think it would depend on how close it is, what else is going on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But certainly we are seeing national figures donate money on the right to try to push this through. The bigger thing would be if it passes, what lessons are learned from that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But certainly we are seeing national figures donate money on the right to try to push this through. The bigger thing would be if it passes, what lessons are learned from that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Interestingly, there was a piece in CalMatters, Guy, that was saying that these big donors who are watching the Prop 39 fight in California are contending that, yes, it may not pass here, but that they’re gauging how much it loses by. Why would that information be important?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Interestingly, there was a piece in CalMatters, Guy, that was saying that these big donors who are watching the Prop 39 fight in California are contending that, yes, it may not pass here, but that they’re gauging how much it loses by. Why would that information be important?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I mean, maybe they feel like, you know, this particular election, the turnout that we expect in November is going to be pro-Democratic, right, given the national mood. The idea that they would fare better in a different electoral environment — this is not polling within the margin of error right now, right? This is like the yes side is trailing in all available public polling.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I mean, maybe they feel like, you know, this particular election, the turnout that we expect in November is going to be pro-Democratic, right, given the national mood. The idea that they would fare better in a different electoral environment — this is not polling within the margin of error right now, right? This is like the yes side is trailing in all available public polling.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m not sure a signal that it’s, you know, four or five points one way or another would make them feel like, oh, if we brought this back in 2028, we’d have an entirely different result.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I’m not sure a signal that it’s, you know, four or five points one way or another would make them feel like, oh, if we brought this back in 2028, we’d have an entirely different result.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> But my sense is that it’s probably not gonna go away in other states, that’s for sure.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> But my sense is that it’s probably not gonna go away in other states, that’s for sure.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right. I mean, we are seeing — I mean, just this year, there’s Arizona, Nevada, a handful of other states have voter ID measures on the ballot. Oklahoma, in their primary, enshrined voter ID into their state constitution. So this is a live issue on the ballot in states throughout the country.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right. I mean, we are seeing — I mean, just this year, there’s Arizona, Nevada, a handful of other states have voter ID measures on the ballot. Oklahoma, in their primary, enshrined voter ID into their state constitution. So this is a live issue on the ballot in states throughout the country.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And again, it’s interesting to me because states like Georgia and Arizona, for example, have actually higher or similar voter turnout to what we do here. And they have pretty strict voter ID laws.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And again, it’s interesting to me because states like Georgia and Arizona, for example, have actually higher or similar voter turnout to what we do here. And they have pretty strict voter ID laws.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Again, though, I think, like, how something is crafted matters. I do think that in this moment when there’s so much concern over how quickly we count ballots here and the resource levels of registrars already not being where they need to be to do the work, like, this is going to add another layer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Again, though, I think, like, how something is crafted matters. I do think that in this moment when there’s so much concern over how quickly we count ballots here and the resource levels of registrars already not being where they need to be to do the work, like, this is going to add another layer.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it’s sort of ironic because I think the same people who are pushing this measure are the ones who are screaming about how undemocratic it is and how problematic it is that we take so long to count our vote here in California. Well, this would just expand that further, and I think give them more ability to attack the integrity of the election.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And it’s sort of ironic because I think the same people who are pushing this measure are the ones who are screaming about how undemocratic it is and how problematic it is that we take so long to count our vote here in California. Well, this would just expand that further, and I think give them more ability to attack the integrity of the election.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s not being talked about enough. We have this whole separate discussion about how long it takes to count ballots. Is adding a new — you have to write a four-digit number, have that be double-checked — that could add more time. If you show up to vote and you don’t have an ID and suddenly now you have cast a provisional ballot, that takes added time on the backend to check.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s not being talked about enough. We have this whole separate discussion about how long it takes to count ballots. Is adding a new — you have to write a four-digit number, have that be double-checked — that could add more time. If you show up to vote and you don’t have an ID and suddenly now you have cast a provisional ballot, that takes added time on the backend to check.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I don’t see anything in this measure that’s going to speed up the ballot count, which has been a very contentious discussion.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I don’t see anything in this measure that’s going to speed up the ballot count, which has been a very contentious discussion.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It has been. I’m just curious what you make of that discussion. You know, if you feel like there are merits to the criticism of how long it takes for California to count its votes, you know, or others who just feel like, look, we’re a big state. We have a lot of people. We have a lot of different county offices and so on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It has been. I’m just curious what you make of that discussion. You know, if you feel like there are merits to the criticism of how long it takes for California to count its votes, you know, or others who just feel like, look, we’re a big state. We have a lot of people. We have a lot of different county offices and so on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I mean, that is true. It is taking longer because we are a big state in which a large number of people vote by mail and return those ballots on Election Day. But that’s not to say that it cannot be faster.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I mean, that is true. It is taking longer because we are a big state in which a large number of people vote by mail and return those ballots on Election Day. But that’s not to say that it cannot be faster.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If there was more, you know, money in the system, if there were more people counting the ballots, if there were more machines to count the ballots, like, it’s not — you just say, oh, well, because so many people vote by mail, throw your hands up. It has to be this. I’m not — I don’t entirely buy that argument.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>If there was more, you know, money in the system, if there were more people counting the ballots, if there were more machines to count the ballots, like, it’s not — you just say, oh, well, because so many people vote by mail, throw your hands up. It has to be this. I’m not — I don’t entirely buy that argument.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking this hour about Proposition 39, the ballot measure that would institute stricter voter ID requirements when casting a ballot or voting by mail. Guy Marzorati is a correspondent on KQED’s California Politics and Government Desk. So is Marisa Lagos. She also co-hosts KQED’s Political Breakdown.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking this hour about Proposition 39, the ballot measure that would institute stricter voter ID requirements when casting a ballot or voting by mail. Guy Marzorati is a correspondent on KQED’s California Politics and Government Desk. So is Marisa Lagos. She also co-hosts KQED’s Political Breakdown.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Listeners, do you want to share how you’re planning to vote, the questions you have about 39, the reasons you’re voting one way or the other, and what do you wanna know about the status of mail-in voting? The latest restrictions, the latest developments around that.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Listeners, do you want to share how you’re planning to vote, the questions you have about 39, the reasons you’re voting one way or the other, and what do you wanna know about the status of mail-in voting? The latest restrictions, the latest developments around that.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The email address is forum at kqed.org. Find us on Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>The email address is forum at kqed.org. Find us on Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And this listener — Noelle writes, “I volunteered at a vote center for the primary election in June. The Registrar of Voters has made it a priority to get all eligible voters to vote. There are so many options of how you can vote. It made me feel glad. And working with the other poll workers who are naturalized citizens and who knew other languages was another highlight for me.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And this listener — Noelle writes, “I volunteered at a vote center for the primary election in June. The Registrar of Voters has made it a priority to get all eligible voters to vote. There are so many options of how you can vote. It made me feel glad. And working with the other poll workers who are naturalized citizens and who knew other languages was another highlight for me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“One of the poll workers lived in a senior housing apartment complex and one of her neighbors came to vote. The voter was 94 and needed help from the poll worker neighbor. And it was heartwarming to see that this person felt it was important to vote.”\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>“One of the poll workers lived in a senior housing apartment complex and one of her neighbors came to vote. The voter was 94 and needed help from the poll worker neighbor. And it was heartwarming to see that this person felt it was important to vote.”\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So just a heartwarming story about voting and the importance of it here in California.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>So just a heartwarming story about voting and the importance of it here in California.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’ll have more after the break. Listeners, this is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>We’ll have more after the break. Listeners, this is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Prop 39 is a ballot measure that would institute stricter voter ID requirements when you cast a ballot or vote by mail. Supporters say the rules are common-sense safeguards essential for restoring public confidence in elections. Opponents contend that they pose all sorts of problems, including potentially disenfranchising groups of voters and increasing the risk of identity theft.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Prop 39 is a ballot measure that would institute stricter voter ID requirements when you cast a ballot or vote by mail. Supporters say the rules are common-sense safeguards essential for restoring public confidence in elections. Opponents contend that they pose all sorts of problems, including potentially disenfranchising groups of voters and increasing the risk of identity theft.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Marisa Lagos and Guy Marzorati have been covering this and are talking about it with you, our listeners, at 866-733-6786, at the email address forum at kqed.org, and on our social channels at KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Marisa Lagos and Guy Marzorati have been covering this and are talking about it with you, our listeners, at 866-733-6786, at the email address forum at kqed.org, and on our social channels at KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And this listener, Jason, writes, “Prop 39 is a terrible idea. I’m already dealing with identity theft. The last thing I need is California making it easier for bad actors by requiring me to advertise the last four numbers of a form of identification.”\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And this listener, Jason, writes, “Prop 39 is a terrible idea. I’m already dealing with identity theft. The last thing I need is California making it easier for bad actors by requiring me to advertise the last four numbers of a form of identification.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, we were talking about some of the things that have shaken people’s confidence in the U.S. Postal Service, and also about some of the issues related to the requirements around mail-in ballots, which nearly 90% of Californians now do, or at least did in the primary election. So vast majority of Californians vote this way.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, we were talking about some of the things that have shaken people’s confidence in the U.S. Postal Service, and also about some of the issues related to the requirements around mail-in ballots, which nearly 90% of Californians now do, or at least did in the primary election. So vast majority of Californians vote this way.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I wanna, well, first let’s clarify. Marisa, has anything changed at USPS? Will ballots be affected by any changes at USPS this election?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I wanna, well, first let’s clarify. Marisa, has anything changed at USPS? Will ballots be affected by any changes at USPS this election?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I mean, yes, not actually differently from the primary, but yes, maybe since 2024 previously. Especially if you’re in a more rural area, there have been some changes to the way ballots are essentially gathered and processed that can delay when you get a postmark.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I mean, yes, not actually differently from the primary, but yes, maybe since 2024 previously. Especially if you’re in a more rural area, there have been some changes to the way ballots are essentially gathered and processed that can delay when you get a postmark.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So it’s not just because you put your ballot in a mailbox on November 2nd, the day before the election, does not mean that USPS will put a November 2 postmark on it. And so I think, you know —\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>So it’s not just because you put your ballot in a mailbox on November 2nd, the day before the election, does not mean that USPS will put a November 2 postmark on it. And so I think, you know —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So they’re postmarking when it’s received at the facility, when it is processed?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So they’re postmarking when it’s received at the facility, when it is processed?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And sometimes if you’re in, say, the Sacramento area or closer to Lake Tahoe, it might be sent to like a Reno processing center before it gets sent back here. So for the postmark. For the postmark.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And sometimes if you’re in, say, the Sacramento area or closer to Lake Tahoe, it might be sent to like a Reno processing center before it gets sent back here. So for the postmark. For the postmark.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So the bottom line is, like, it’s first of all, if you need to vote by actual USPS mail, I think the best advice these days is try to get in the mail up to a week before the election. Like, don’t wait until the days before.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So the bottom line is, like, it’s first of all, if you need to vote by actual USPS mail, I think the best advice these days is try to get in the mail up to a week before the election. Like, don’t wait until the days before.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But the best thing to do is either put it in one of those county drop boxes. Those do not rely on the postal service at all. The county registrar actually comes and collects those in most counties every single day at the end of the day. And they postmark the day that they were in the box. And they will essentially count it as being received that day.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But the best thing to do is either put it in one of those county drop boxes. Those do not rely on the postal service at all. The county registrar actually comes and collects those in most counties every single day at the end of the day. And they postmark the day that they were in the box. And they will essentially count it as being received that day.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Or you can mail — you know, take your mail-in ballot, take your time at home, love it, cuddle it, whatever you need to do, and then walk it into a voting center, whether that’s on Election Day or previously, preferably previously, because the sooner you get your ballots in, the less we have to hear national folks complaining about how long our vote count takes, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Or you can mail — you know, take your mail-in ballot, take your time at home, love it, cuddle it, whatever you need to do, and then walk it into a voting center, whether that’s on Election Day or previously, preferably previously, because the sooner you get your ballots in, the less we have to hear national folks complaining about how long our vote count takes, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But you can actually — it’s called naked voting, I learned recently — where you basically go in and feed your ballot in at the voting center without the mail-in envelope in it. So there’s multiple options, and I think — but again, I think the ballot drop boxes, if you wanna vote by mail and you don’t wanna be hassled with finding a voting center, are probably the best option.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But you can actually — it’s called naked voting, I learned recently — where you basically go in and feed your ballot in at the voting center without the mail-in envelope in it. So there’s multiple options, and I think — but again, I think the ballot drop boxes, if you wanna vote by mail and you don’t wanna be hassled with finding a voting center, are probably the best option.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then — there’s early voting in a lot of counties too. So you can actually just go in and, like, cast your ballot in person a week or two before the election.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then — there’s early voting in a lot of counties too. So you can actually just go in and, like, cast your ballot in person a week or two before the election.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That naked balloting that Marisa’s talking about, Guy, that sounds like just a little bit different than what you say a lot of Californians do, which is drop off their ballot at the voting site the day of the election. This would mean actually taking it out of the envelope and having them process it right in front of you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That naked balloting that Marisa’s talking about, Guy, that sounds like just a little bit different than what you say a lot of Californians do, which is drop off their ballot at the voting site the day of the election. This would mean actually taking it out of the envelope and having them process it right in front of you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right, so that the processing doesn’t happen on the back end, so that it’s more akin to voting in person and that the vote is actually processed right there. That does help speed up the vote count.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right, so that the processing doesn’t happen on the back end, so that it’s more akin to voting in person and that the vote is actually processed right there. That does help speed up the vote count.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I should point folks — our colleague Izzy Bloom did a great explainer on all the changes to USPS, how that might affect voting. Encourage folks, go to KQED, check that out. She talked to the registrar of voters in Sonoma County, who said, point: we’re not encouraging people to use USPS.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I should point folks — our colleague Izzy Bloom did a great explainer on all the changes to USPS, how that might affect voting. Encourage folks, go to KQED, check that out. She talked to the registrar of voters in Sonoma County, who said, point: we’re not encouraging people to use USPS.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I do, I agree with Marisa, there’s so many drop boxes in counties. I mean, where I live in San Jose, the drop box is closer than the post office. And I will just — I’ll second that. I think if you’re voting close to Election Day, don’t be, you know, you would hate to be that person that you spend that time filling out your ballot, you return it, it ends up getting postmarked after Election Day. Just use a drop box.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I do, I agree with Marisa, there’s so many drop boxes in counties. I mean, where I live in San Jose, the drop box is closer than the post office. And I will just — I’ll second that. I think if you’re voting close to Election Day, don’t be, you know, you would hate to be that person that you spend that time filling out your ballot, you return it, it ends up getting postmarked after Election Day. Just use a drop box.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And I understand if you really do want to get that postmark or make sure you see that postmark, another thing that Izzy wrote about — and you’re right, that piece is excellent, and I highly recommend people read it — that you go in and get a hand-stamped postmark right there, right in front of you. Yeah, you can go into the post office as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And I understand if you really do want to get that postmark or make sure you see that postmark, another thing that Izzy wrote about — and you’re right, that piece is excellent, and I highly recommend people read it — that you go in and get a hand-stamped postmark right there, right in front of you. Yeah, you can go into the post office as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Again, these are adding the extra steps, so I do think, you know, I think it’s also just worth just thinking about making a plan. You know, like, what is my plan? Maybe it’s setting a time sometime the weekend before the election, if you don’t have time before then, or two weekends before, to just sit down and do this.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Again, these are adding the extra steps, so I do think, you know, I think it’s also just worth just thinking about making a plan. You know, like, what is my plan? Maybe it’s setting a time sometime the weekend before the election, if you don’t have time before then, or two weekends before, to just sit down and do this.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We have a long ballot in San Francisco and California in particular. I mean, there’s 14 statewide ballot measures. I can’t remember how many city ones this year, but add another handful to that. A lot of counties, you know, L.A. has a big mayor’s race. We have congressional races. There’s a lot to pour over.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We have a long ballot in San Francisco and California in particular. I mean, there’s 14 statewide ballot measures. I can’t remember how many city ones this year, but add another handful to that. A lot of counties, you know, L.A. has a big mayor’s race. We have congressional races. There’s a lot to pour over.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A lot of these ballot measures are confusing in some cases on purpose. And so I think that giving yourself that time and then making a plan is really important. And it’s just, like I said, to do all that work and then to find out it wasn’t counted is just incredibly discouraging.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A lot of these ballot measures are confusing in some cases on purpose. And so I think that giving yourself that time and then making a plan is really important. And it’s just, like I said, to do all that work and then to find out it wasn’t counted is just incredibly discouraging.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And you can track your ballot once you put it out there so that you can. And again, if you want more details about that, listeners, that’s in the piece.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And you can track your ballot once you put it out there so that you can. And again, if you want more details about that, listeners, that’s in the piece.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is from Berkeley writes, “I’d always assumed that proponents of restrictive voting policies wanted to preferentially reduce progressive or Democratic turnout, but a more sinister interpretation seems more likely now. A desire to reduce turnout overall, making it easier for those in power to run roughshod over public interests in favor of politicians’ interests. Are there documents from whistleblowers or leaks that explicitly clarify the genuine intentions of those behind voter ID proposals?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is from Berkeley writes, “I’d always assumed that proponents of restrictive voting policies wanted to preferentially reduce progressive or Democratic turnout, but a more sinister interpretation seems more likely now. A desire to reduce turnout overall, making it easier for those in power to run roughshod over public interests in favor of politicians’ interests. Are there documents from whistleblowers or leaks that explicitly clarify the genuine intentions of those behind voter ID proposals?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I don’t know if the person who blew the whistle at the USPS —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I don’t know if the person who blew the whistle at the USPS —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I would say there’s, for this one in California, I would describe probably a few different motives. I mean, this is a policy that Republicans have championed across the country. I do think this was an organizing opportunity for Republicans, specifically Carl DeMaio. I mean, he started this group, Reform California, and they’ve gone through the process of collecting signatures to get this on the ballot, fundraising. So this really was a big grassroots organizing opportunity for DeMaio and Republicans in California.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I would say there’s, for this one in California, I would describe probably a few different motives. I mean, this is a policy that Republicans have championed across the country. I do think this was an organizing opportunity for Republicans, specifically Carl DeMaio. I mean, he started this group, Reform California, and they’ve gone through the process of collecting signatures to get this on the ballot, fundraising. So this really was a big grassroots organizing opportunity for DeMaio and Republicans in California.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Um, so, and as far as, like, fewer people voting, that is, you know, when the Legislative Analyst’s Office analyzed Prop 39 and said, okay, here’s where it would cost the state money. Here’s where we’d save the state. One of the ways that they said it could save the state money is just fewer people voting as a result of this, though the cost would still — this would still cost the state money from having to send out these new, uh, potential ID cards and, you know, the paperwork and —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Um, so, and as far as, like, fewer people voting, that is, you know, when the Legislative Analyst’s Office analyzed Prop 39 and said, okay, here’s where it would cost the state money. Here’s where we’d save the state. One of the ways that they said it could save the state money is just fewer people voting as a result of this, though the cost would still — this would still cost the state money from having to send out these new, uh, potential ID cards and, you know, the paperwork and —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And then the registrars would have to do more work on the back end.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And then the registrars would have to do more work on the back end.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Corey in San Francisco writes, “What’s to stop the federal government from not sending ballots disproportionately to one party if the federal government gets more information, for example?” That was the only fear that was raised. Trump not sending ballots to Democrats or minorities or women, I feel like this — that’s his end game.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Corey in San Francisco writes, “What’s to stop the federal government from not sending ballots disproportionately to one party if the federal government gets more information, for example?” That was the only fear that was raised. Trump not sending ballots to Democrats or minorities or women, I feel like this — that’s his end game.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Okay, can we just talk about where the efforts to restrict mail-in voting will go from here, especially since its loudest champion for restrictions, the president, has recently been changing his tune and telling Republican voters to vote by mail?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Okay, can we just talk about where the efforts to restrict mail-in voting will go from here, especially since its loudest champion for restrictions, the president, has recently been changing his tune and telling Republican voters to vote by mail?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it’s really remarkable, you know, this shift. I just want to point out, like, he has said mail-in voting means mail-in cheating, and then just recently he posted this on Truth Social.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And it’s really remarkable, you know, this shift. I just want to point out, like, he has said mail-in voting means mail-in cheating, and then just recently he posted this on Truth Social.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Donald Trump:\u003c/strong> Do not wait. Go out and vote. Vote early, vote by mail, or vote in person on Election Day, November 3rd.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Donald Trump:\u003c/strong> Do not wait. Go out and vote. Vote early, vote by mail, or vote in person on Election Day, November 3rd.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Vote often, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Vote often, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> How should we interpret this sort of change of message?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> How should we interpret this sort of change of message?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I mean, cynically, I think is fair, because we’ve seen this before, right? Like, he spends, you know, a year or two years trying to undercut confidence in our elections, claiming all this fraud, and then looks around and realizes on the eve of an election that matters to Republicans that, hey, this could actually depress their vote as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I mean, cynically, I think is fair, because we’ve seen this before, right? Like, he spends, you know, a year or two years trying to undercut confidence in our elections, claiming all this fraud, and then looks around and realizes on the eve of an election that matters to Republicans that, hey, this could actually depress their vote as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, we saw this in 2024 and 2022 as well, so I don’t think it’s anything different, and I would not expect that it means a change of heart by the president. I think what we are going to see is him continue to try to push some of these attempts at making it harder to vote and inserting the federal government into the elections.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, we saw this in 2024 and 2022 as well, so I don’t think it’s anything different, and I would not expect that it means a change of heart by the president. I think what we are going to see is him continue to try to push some of these attempts at making it harder to vote and inserting the federal government into the elections.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If Republicans lose the House, and especially if they lose the House and the Senate, he’s going to have even less chance of doing that legislatively. So I think we can expect more lawsuits, more executive orders, and a lot of rhetoric.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>If Republicans lose the House, and especially if they lose the House and the Senate, he’s going to have even less chance of doing that legislatively. So I think we can expect more lawsuits, more executive orders, and a lot of rhetoric.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think that’s really important to note. And this is something, like, I just want to say, because we’ve been spending a lot of time on Political Breakdown thinking about and talking about election integrity. And I’ve been spending a lot of time talking to folks, nonpartisan experts on this.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think that’s really important to note. And this is something, like, I just want to say, because we’ve been spending a lot of time on Political Breakdown thinking about and talking about election integrity. And I’ve been spending a lot of time talking to folks, nonpartisan experts on this.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think what’s really important is that so much of what the president has done, I think, is really aimed at scaring people, right? When you think about things like these sort of — this idea they floated out there that they might have troops or ICE at the polls, the idea that they may try to sort of come in and take control from states and counties, none of that is constitutional.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think what’s really important is that so much of what the president has done, I think, is really aimed at scaring people, right? When you think about things like these sort of — this idea they floated out there that they might have troops or ICE at the polls, the idea that they may try to sort of come in and take control from states and counties, none of that is constitutional.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And even if, you know, there were attempts to do it, I think that they would be very limited and very much aimed, again, at sort of intimidating people and officials, not in actually being able to disrupt the election.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And even if, you know, there were attempts to do it, I think that they would be very limited and very much aimed, again, at sort of intimidating people and officials, not in actually being able to disrupt the election.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So the folks I talked to who have done this work for a long time say that, you know, we should have confidence that this election will go off well. I think the thing I’m going to be watching is what happens after the election. Is there any attempts to disrupt vote counts, to seize ballots? Are there any attempts, you know, to sort of mess with things when we talk about the seating of the House on January 3rd?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So the folks I talked to who have done this work for a long time say that, you know, we should have confidence that this election will go off well. I think the thing I’m going to be watching is what happens after the election. Is there any attempts to disrupt vote counts, to seize ballots? Are there any attempts, you know, to sort of mess with things when we talk about the seating of the House on January 3rd?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And if, you know, if Republicans lose, is the speaker going to try to do something to prevent Democrats from being seated? I think that’s a pretty far-off, you know, thing. But I do think we spend so much time thinking about, like, how do people vote? I want us to still stay on our toes and be watching things after the votes come in.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And if, you know, if Republicans lose, is the speaker going to try to do something to prevent Democrats from being seated? I think that’s a pretty far-off, you know, thing. But I do think we spend so much time thinking about, like, how do people vote? I want us to still stay on our toes and be watching things after the votes come in.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> And I think also a lot of this, like, you have to look through the lens of a pre-buttle. Even before Trump’s approval dropped to how low it is, the president typically does poorly in a midterm election. And I would think it would surprise no one if the day after the election he comes out and says, well, if we had only passed, you know, stricter voter requirements, we wouldn’t have had this, you know, Democratic wins in the House, the Senate, et cetera.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> And I think also a lot of this, like, you have to look through the lens of a pre-buttle. Even before Trump’s approval dropped to how low it is, the president typically does poorly in a midterm election. And I would think it would surprise no one if the day after the election he comes out and says, well, if we had only passed, you know, stricter voter requirements, we wouldn’t have had this, you know, Democratic wins in the House, the Senate, et cetera.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It sounds like you’re essentially saying that, you know, timing-wise, there’s gonna be vote by mail in this midterm election, and he does not need people not voting.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It sounds like you’re essentially saying that, you know, timing-wise, there’s gonna be vote by mail in this midterm election, and he does not need people not voting.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> One hundred percent. You can’t — and you can change anything related to that within 90 days of the election. Like, that is established.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> One hundred percent. You can’t — and you can change anything related to that within 90 days of the election. Like, that is established.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And I’m sure there were members of his own party telling him —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And I’m sure there were members of his own party telling him —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I mean, that’s not — I didn’t see the video, but it sounded like he was reading off a script. Oh, yeah.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I mean, that’s not — I didn’t see the video, but it sounded like he was reading off a script. Oh, yeah.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, you know, essentially, I think that is part of it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, you know, essentially, I think that is part of it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Let me remind listeners first, you are listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. But Guy, to Marisa’s point, you very much covered the attempted seizure — or the seizure — of ballots and the attempt to hold onto them by Riverside County Sheriff Chad Bianco, and that, you know, the state Supreme Court had made a ruling in that. Tell us what the ruling is and whether people should feel more confident that that is unlikely — seizures of ballots might be unlikely to happen here.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Let me remind listeners first, you are listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. But Guy, to Marisa’s point, you very much covered the attempted seizure — or the seizure — of ballots and the attempt to hold onto them by Riverside County Sheriff Chad Bianco, and that, you know, the state Supreme Court had made a ruling in that. Tell us what the ruling is and whether people should feel more confident that that is unlikely — seizures of ballots might be unlikely to happen here.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so the ruling was basically that Chad Bianco, the sheriff in Riverside County, broke the law when he seized ballots from the 2025 election in an attempted investigation into what he purported to be potential voter fraud in Riverside County.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so the ruling was basically that Chad Bianco, the sheriff in Riverside County, broke the law when he seized ballots from the 2025 election in an attempted investigation into what he purported to be potential voter fraud in Riverside County.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Supreme Court both said that he had no right to do that, that there was a clear law as far as the chain of custody for ballots. Even in the course of an investigation, those ballots should have never been taken out of the Registrar of Voters office.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The Supreme Court both said that he had no right to do that, that there was a clear law as far as the chain of custody for ballots. Even in the course of an investigation, those ballots should have never been taken out of the Registrar of Voters office.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the Supreme Court also affirmed the attorney general’s power to have tried to halt Bianco’s investigation. And I think that’s an important thing to keep an eye on, too. The attorney general really does have very broad powers in California, authority over sheriffs and district attorneys.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the Supreme Court also affirmed the attorney general’s power to have tried to halt Bianco’s investigation. And I think that’s an important thing to keep an eye on, too. The attorney general really does have very broad powers in California, authority over sheriffs and district attorneys.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But this was one of the first times that court really confronted that question over the limits of their power over sheriffs. And it found that it didn’t set a limit. It basically said this was in Bonta’s authority to have told Bianco, stop this investigation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But this was one of the first times that court really confronted that question over the limits of their power over sheriffs. And it found that it didn’t set a limit. It basically said this was in Bonta’s authority to have told Bianco, stop this investigation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That could be something with a tail to November or October if we see some kind of, you know, action leading up or after the election on the part of local law enforcement.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That could be something with a tail to November or October if we see some kind of, you know, action leading up or after the election on the part of local law enforcement.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Because I do think state lawmakers, vast majority Democrats, are kind of caught in this push and pull. They’re trying to fend off federal efforts to intercede more in elections, but they’re also dealing with a lot of things popping up at the local level.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Because I do think state lawmakers, vast majority Democrats, are kind of caught in this push and pull. They’re trying to fend off federal efforts to intercede more in elections, but they’re also dealing with a lot of things popping up at the local level.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, Riverside County was probably the most notable example with Bianco’s investigation, but the state has also been in litigation with Shasta County, where there were efforts to restrict vote-by-mail.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, Riverside County was probably the most notable example with Bianco’s investigation, but the state has also been in litigation with Shasta County, where there were efforts to restrict vote-by-mail.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I think you see Attorney General Rob Bonta really at the fulcrum here between litigating against the federal government, trying to, you know, prevent changes to vote-by-mail there, but also almost in a whack-a-mole fashion banging on some of these local officials who, you know, he feels might have overstepped their — when it comes to involving themselves in the election process.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I think you see Attorney General Rob Bonta really at the fulcrum here between litigating against the federal government, trying to, you know, prevent changes to vote-by-mail there, but also almost in a whack-a-mole fashion banging on some of these local officials who, you know, he feels might have overstepped their — when it comes to involving themselves in the election process.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, interestingly, Steve writes, “Since 1999, I’ve served as a poll worker in over 20 elections in three different California counties. Anyone who thinks elections are rigged or not secure should serve as a poll worker in just one election. I’ll bet they’d have a very different perspective after that. The problem isn’t with the security of elections on the county level, Steve feels. If there’s the potential for problems, it’s going to be from the intrusion of the current federal administration.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, interestingly, Steve writes, “Since 1999, I’ve served as a poll worker in over 20 elections in three different California counties. Anyone who thinks elections are rigged or not secure should serve as a poll worker in just one election. I’ll bet they’d have a very different perspective after that. The problem isn’t with the security of elections on the county level, Steve feels. If there’s the potential for problems, it’s going to be from the intrusion of the current federal administration.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We have another poll worker, Ruth, who writes, “I volunteer for VoteRiders, trying to get voter IDs for people who have the right to vote but lack the ID their state requires. There are 28 million people who meet that definition. It costs $50 for a birth certificate. You need a photo ID to get a Social Security card. You sometimes need a Social Security card to get the photo ID. So it’s easy to fall into a loop where you can’t get an ID. Add in those who don’t drive, the disabled, the old, the young. This is one party trying to make sure these 28 million voices are never heard.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We have another poll worker, Ruth, who writes, “I volunteer for VoteRiders, trying to get voter IDs for people who have the right to vote but lack the ID their state requires. There are 28 million people who meet that definition. It costs $50 for a birth certificate. You need a photo ID to get a Social Security card. You sometimes need a Social Security card to get the photo ID. So it’s easy to fall into a loop where you can’t get an ID. Add in those who don’t drive, the disabled, the old, the young. This is one party trying to make sure these 28 million voices are never heard.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Certainly, we are hearing resoundingly, at least from our listenership today who are contributing, that they very much do not support Proposition 39 and see it as essentially, as you were saying initially, a solution in search of a problem.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Certainly, we are hearing resoundingly, at least from our listenership today who are contributing, that they very much do not support Proposition 39 and see it as essentially, as you were saying initially, a solution in search of a problem.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Let me go to Laura in Lafayette, who’s on the line. Laura, go ahead.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Let me go to Laura in Lafayette, who’s on the line. Laura, go ahead.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura:\u003c/strong> Thanks. Thanks for taking my call, Mina. Yeah, I just want to say, you know, there are measures in place to combat voter fraud. And a friend of mine, whose son was studying out of state, she called him, filled out his ballot, put his signature on there — her signature on there — and got a call from the registrar and said, hey, you, this is not his signature.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura:\u003c/strong> Thanks. Thanks for taking my call, Mina. Yeah, I just want to say, you know, there are measures in place to combat voter fraud. And a friend of mine, whose son was studying out of state, she called him, filled out his ballot, put his signature on there — her signature on there — and got a call from the registrar and said, hey, you, this is not his signature.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So just for that, it was obvious that they’re looking at the ballots, they’re the signatures, and so there are measures in place.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So just for that, it was obvious that they’re looking at the ballots, they’re the signatures, and so there are measures in place.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Laura, thanks for sharing your experience.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Laura, thanks for sharing your experience.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And Joan writes, “No system is perfect. So a fraction of 1% of votes having problems is as close to perfect as anyone will ever get. If we had a crystal ball, Prop 39 would raise, not lower the voting problems, especially because it is not motivated by good intentions.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And Joan writes, “No system is perfect. So a fraction of 1% of votes having problems is as close to perfect as anyone will ever get. If we had a crystal ball, Prop 39 would raise, not lower the voting problems, especially because it is not motivated by good intentions.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Al writes, “I have to prove my identity at Wells Fargo to make a deposit. And I am a customer. My kid had to show photo ID to take the SAT test. I had to ID to register my car at DMV. Is my vote more important? All vote yes.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Al writes, “I have to prove my identity at Wells Fargo to make a deposit. And I am a customer. My kid had to show photo ID to take the SAT test. I had to ID to register my car at DMV. Is my vote more important? All vote yes.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That’s the first person that we’ve heard who’s going to vote yes. Thanks for sharing where you’re at with this, Al.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That’s the first person that we’ve heard who’s going to vote yes. Thanks for sharing where you’re at with this, Al.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Claude writes, “I’m 76 years old and have voted straight Republican for 40-plus years. Never again. Voter ID is to ensure only Republicans can vote,” in Claude’s opinion.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Claude writes, “I’m 76 years old and have voted straight Republican for 40-plus years. Never again. Voter ID is to ensure only Republicans can vote,” in Claude’s opinion.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Marisa.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Marisa.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Like, it is interesting that it’s become so partisan in this moment. And again, like, I think historically that tracks with how things have played out over decades in this nation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Like, it is interesting that it’s become so partisan in this moment. And again, like, I think historically that tracks with how things have played out over decades in this nation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Although, to be fair, you know, back during the Jim Crow era, a lot of the folks in the South were Democrats who were trying to suppress the Black vote. I don’t think in itself voter ID is the problem.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Although, to be fair, you know, back during the Jim Crow era, a lot of the folks in the South were Democrats who were trying to suppress the Black vote. I don’t think in itself voter ID is the problem.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But we have not had, like, a good sort of bipartisan effort to come together and figure out a way that would both sort of allow people to have as much access as possible and also have voter ID.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But we have not had, like, a good sort of bipartisan effort to come together and figure out a way that would both sort of allow people to have as much access as possible and also have voter ID.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think there are states that have voter ID laws that, you know, are perfectly reasonable and, like I said, that have very high voter —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think there are states that have voter ID laws that, you know, are perfectly reasonable and, like I said, that have very high voter —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Turnout.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Turnout.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I think the problem is, like, we just have such a problem with voter participation to begin with in our country and our state particularly. I mean, California does make it as easy as possible. And we still lag other states often in turnout.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I think the problem is, like, we just have such a problem with voter participation to begin with in our country and our state particularly. I mean, California does make it as easy as possible. And we still lag other states often in turnout.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so that — that is troubling because our democracy does work better when everyone’s engaged. It does.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so that — that is troubling because our democracy does work better when everyone’s engaged. It does.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And I think you were touching on this earlier, Marisa, if I may, when you were talking about our history with it. Fundamentally, too, there just may be different views with regard to who should vote in this country. Like, who should really be determining the leadership for all of us as a nation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And I think you were touching on this earlier, Marisa, if I may, when you were talking about our history with it. Fundamentally, too, there just may be different views with regard to who should vote in this country. Like, who should really be determining the leadership for all of us as a nation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I mean, I think we’ve seen that historically. I remember feeling like that in college, that there was a sense, you know, in a lot of college towns that folks who live there permanently were mad that college students got to say as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I mean, I think we’ve seen that historically. I remember feeling like that in college, that there was a sense, you know, in a lot of college towns that folks who live there permanently were mad that college students got to say as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think you see this often with the way people talk about, like, yeah, who should have a role in things. And, you know, we all get to.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think you see this often with the way people talk about, like, yeah, who should have a role in things. And, you know, we all get to.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Alona in Richmond writes, “As an experienced volunteer at the polls, I suggest everyone who has doubts about the process of voting in this state also volunteer. It is so much better to make these judgments from knowledge and experience rather than from ignorance and fear.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Alona in Richmond writes, “As an experienced volunteer at the polls, I suggest everyone who has doubts about the process of voting in this state also volunteer. It is so much better to make these judgments from knowledge and experience rather than from ignorance and fear.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’ve been talking about Prop 39 with Guy Marzorati. Thank you so much, Guy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We’ve been talking about Prop 39 with Guy Marzorati. Thank you so much, Guy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Thanks, Mina.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Thanks, Mina.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And Marisa Lagos.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And Marisa Lagos.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Thanks, Marisa.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Thanks, Marisa.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> My pleasure. And with you, listeners, my thanks to you always for sharing where you are and how you are doing on \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> My pleasure. And with you, listeners, my thanks to you always for sharing where you are and how you are doing on \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n"
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"excerpt": "We’ll unpack the cases for and against Prop 39 with KQED’s Guy Marzorati and Marisa Lagos. ",
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"headline": "The Battle Over Voter ID in California",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Thursday, October 8, 2026 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Californians in this fall’s election will consider Proposition 39, which asks whether voters should be required to show ID when they cast a ballot. Supporters argue the rules are common-sense safeguards essential for restoring public confidence in elections, while opponents contend they pose identity theft risks and disproportionately disenfranchise low-income, minority, and young voters. We’ll unpack the cases for and against Prop 39 with KQED’s Guy Marzorati and Marisa Lagos. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati,\u003c/strong> correspondent, KQED’s California Politics and Government Desk\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos\u003c/strong>, politics correspondent, KQED, co-host of KQED’s Political Breakdown\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. The president has aggressively pushed for voter ID mandates and restrictions on voting by mail in an effort to rein in an election system that he claims, without evidence, is rife with fraud. So is California’s Proposition 39, which would impose stricter identification requirements on voting in person and by mail, an outgrowth of that? Or is it a common-sense measure to restore confidence in elections, as its supporters say?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Joining me to break it all down as you fill out your midterm ballots, Marisa Lagos, correspondent for KQED’s Politics and Government Desk and co-host of Political Breakdown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Good morning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also with us is Guy Marzorati, correspondent on KQED’s politics team as well. Hi, Guy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Hey, good morning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So start us off, Guy. What would Prop 39 do if passed?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> So Prop 39 would have put in place new requirements for voting in California. For voting in person, it would be presenting a government ID when you vote. But for the vast majority of Californians who vote by mail, it would be a little bit different. You’d actually have to write down a four-digit number from one piece of government ID. So that could be a driver’s license. You’d write that down on the outside of the ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there were a lot of outstanding questions about how that would actually work. Each of us would have to, if this passes, choose which government ID we’re going to be using as part of that vote-by-mail ID program. And so, in essence — and this would have to be worked out in some form or fashion — you’d have 23 million registered voters all basically having to re-register, pick which identification they’ll be using, so that when they do write down that four-digit number on their ballot envelope, it can be double-checked once the vote is cast.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Would it also add requirements with regard to auditing or, you know, checking voter rolls?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, there’s another provision in this ballot measure that asks both state election officials, the secretary of state and county election officials to double-check whether the voters on the rolls are citizens. And it says they have to do so using, quote, “their best effort.” But that’s another area of this proposition that would have to be defined in the future by the state legislature. What does that mean for these election officials to be using their best efforts to check whether the folks on the voter rolls are actually citizens? I think —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I mean, something they would argue they’re already doing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and the legislature would have to define that. And they could. It’s a Democratic-controlled legislature. The vast majority of members don’t even think that this proposition should be made law. You could easily end up in a situation where, if this does pass, the legislature basically signs off on the work that election officials are already doing as a way to confirm, under the way this measure is written, that folks on the rolls are citizens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Marisa, who put this measure on the ballot?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I mean, the main proponent is Carl DeMaio. He’s a longtime San Diego kind of politician. He hosted a radio show. I don’t know if he was quite a shock jock, but like sort of in that, like, right-wing radio, you know, and he really came to prominence in San Diego like 20 years ago when he was on the City Council and was kind of leading the fight to try to strip public employees of some of the retirement benefits. This was during a lot of concern about pension benefits being over-generous. And I think a lot of people, including Democrats, had concerns and felt that it needed to be reined in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But DeMaio really angered a lot of public employee unions because he tried to actually claw back benefits that had already been promised to people instead of sort of making it moving forward. He went on, as I said, to kind of gain right-wing prominence with his radio show and then eventually has come to the state legislature. And he’s really the main person behind it, but it really is this coalition of him, other legislative Republicans. And then now we’re seeing a lot of support from national figures from, like, the MAGA movement who are pouring in money and supporting this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And what does DeMaio say about why this proposition is needed?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> You know, I think DeMaio understands the politics of the state better than probably the president. So I will say this is a far less sort of extreme measure than what Trump has been pushing. But he’s making the same arguments, right, that there’s fraud in our system, that we need to ensure that, you know, everybody who’s voting is a legitimate citizen. And I mean, it’s the same argument we’ve been hearing from Trump, I would say.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> But to Marisa’s point, DeMaio has, you know, gone on media throughout the state making the pitch for Prop 39. And I think in a lot of forums, he’s presented it as a way to kind of silence critiques about voter fraud. I mean, in one instance, he said, if you want to shut up the people who are raising these conspiracy theories, pass Proposition 39 and then they won’t be raising them anymore. Which would be still open. I don’t think he’s, you know, run that by the president. You know, I think that’s still an open question. But he’s, I think, in trying to appeal to folks beyond Republicans, have said, look, all this discussion about trust in elections and voter fraud will end if we pass Prop 39. I think there’s a lot of research that points to voters’ feelings about the security of elections being driven much more by bipartisan messaging than by actual voter laws.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Is this measure, you know, in coordination with President Trump?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> President Trump has not explicitly endorsed Proposition 39. He did say in early 2025, after those wildfires in Southern California, that California’s ability to get federal funding should come after the state passes voter ID. So he’s expressed support for California to enact some kind of system of voter ID. He has not explicitly endorsed Prop 39 since it made it to the ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And I would argue that that’s intentional. Right? Trump’s historically unpopular here in California. I think that there’s a real sense that him — he is already so associated with these efforts that I think if you look at the polling and the way Democrats are responding, they’re probably making that connection anyway. But I think it’s likely that folks like DeMaio were sort of like, maybe just stay out of this one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So then let’s talk about the opponents. What do they say is wrong with requiring voters to show ID when they cast a ballot or to write that kind of information on a ballot envelope that they’re mailing in, Guy?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I think the most common argument you hear against Prop 39 is that it’s a solution in search of a problem. We don’t have voter fraud occurring throughout California. Why is there a need, then, they would argue, to enact a new system that is purported to crack down on that fraud?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think you also hear arguments about how this would add — you can call it hassles, you can call it hurdles — to actually voting by mail. I think that the piece of this that relates to in-person voting is much more simple and straightforward, right? Right now, when you go to vote in person, you usually sign the poll book next to your name. That’s not really checked. This would actually make it more secure in that case to vote in person because you’d be presenting ID.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But again, the vast majority, 80% in our last general election, voted by mail. So when you’re talking about this in California, we really have to talk about this through the lens of vote by mail, and it would create new systems to vote by mail. Again, writing down that four-digit number, where is that number coming from, having people pick that — it would add these new complications and these new systems to voting by mail. So it’s a very different conversation when you’re talking about voter ID in California than in the rest of the country, where we don’t have as much prevalence in a lot of states of vote by mail, and you see most states in the country do have some sort of voter ID.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So it would be the last four digits of a Social Security number and your entire driver’s license number, or?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> So it could be any government ID. You would get to pick that, which ID you use.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> But you would have to stick with it, which is, I think, part of the concern. Yeah, the other reason I’m asking is because opponents have also raised concerns about identity theft related to this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right. Because this number would be on the outside of your ballot envelope. So there are concerns that if you’re writing down the last four digits, let’s say, your driver’s license, with your signature there, could that open the door to identity theft?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I also think when you’re talking about this through the context of vote by mail, there are already a lot more security checks with vote by mail than voting in person. Again, when you vote in person, you sign that poll book. No one’s really double-checking that. When you vote by mail, that signature that you sign on your ballot envelope is being checked against your signature on file. That’s part of why it takes longer to count the vote in California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But those security measures are already in place, and I think opponents of Prop 39 would say, well, then why do we need this whole new system involving writing down this number on the envelope?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. The other thing that they raise are issues about voters of certain groups being disproportionately affected, right? Low-income —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Young voters.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Talk about that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. I mean, I think any time we talk about voter access and hurdles to voting, young voters are oftentimes the most impacted. And that can be for a variety of reasons, being new to the experience of voting, moving around, changing addresses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When we talk about votes that get rejected in California, oftentimes because ballots arrive too late, or there are signature issues, younger voters are overrepresented in that pool of ballots that tend to get rejected. And so I think the concern here with Prop 39 is, again, you add potentially this new requirement of having to select a form of identification that young voters would be the most impacted by that. Maybe not following up with that first request for, hey, you need to specify which ID you’re using.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me invite listeners into the conversation. Listeners, how do you feel about Prop 39? What are your questions about it? You can email Forum at kqed.org, find us on Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum. Or you can call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Douglas on Discord writes, “I don’t see a need for it. Voter fraud is incredibly rare. This costs money. Why spend money fighting something that almost never happens?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Discord user Steve writes, “I would support voter ID laws, but only after we make the big push, likely a multi-year effort, to get adequate IDs into the hands of everyone qualified to vote. Otherwise, it’s just another form of an illegal poll tax.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> That’s a great point about having a universal ID for this, because the way Prop 39 is written is that any voter can request a voting ID, basically can ask the state, hey, you’ve passed Prop 39, can I have a voting ID? But it wouldn’t be just sent by default to everybody. So that’s an important point that that listener raises.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And Marisa, you know, Guy was mentioning — and you were mentioning — the fact that when, you know, votes are thrown out, if it’s not for fraud, what are the most common reasons the ballots get tossed?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, people just don’t fill them out correctly, right? I mean, the signature matching is one thing, but often registrars really go above and beyond to try to ensure that if a signature doesn’t look matched, that they follow up with voters even, which again delays the count.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I think that you have to do things properly. There’s a set of steps you need to fill out the bubbles with a black pen, right? Like, you need not a pencil, or I don’t think blue is accepted. Is that correct?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> In some cases, yeah, ideally, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> You know, you need to put it in the envelope correctly, sign it, date it. Like, there’s just all these steps. And I think that, you know, what people who oppose these types of voter ID measures say is, like, any — it’s already so hard to get people to vote. Like, any extra barriers are going to both, you know, dissuade some people from voting at all or potentially, you know, have others invalidate their —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> And I’ll say, I mean, we can just look recently to our last election in June. Almost 2% of all vote-by-mail ballots were rejected. And the biggest reason was they didn’t arrive on time. You know, people waited a long time to vote. And in some cases, that ballot just was not postmarked by Election Day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes, and interestingly, that marks a pretty significant increase, too, in the number of rejected ballots. But it sounds like you’re essentially saying, Marisa, that there is a robust process in place for vote verification, and also the penalties are pretty steep if you tried to commit voter fraud.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. And I mean, the reason we hear about voter fraud is because it’s so rare that when it does happen, it gets prosecuted. Right. And so I think, like, that’s something people who want these type of laws make, you know, hey, I’ve — say, oh, well, look, somebody registered their dog in Orange County. Well, she did it on purpose. First of all, we can talk about that later.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Marisa Lagos and Guy Marzorati about Prop 39 and with you, listeners. Stay with us. More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. We’re talking this hour about Proposition 39, a ballot measure that would institute stricter voter ID requirements. Voters would be required to show ID when they cast their ballot, in addition to when they register, which is what they do now, or to show some kind of identifying information on the outside of their mail-in ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Supporters argue the rules are common-sense safeguards, essential for restoring public confidence in elections, while opponents contend that they would disproportionately disenfranchise certain voters, like young voters. It could also pose some identity theft risks with you writing information on the outside of your ballot envelope.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Marisa Lagos is a correspondent on KQED’s politics desk, co-host of Political Breakdown. Guy Marzorati is also a correspondent on KQED’s California Politics and Government Desk. And you, our listeners, are joining the conversation. You can tell us how you’re planning to vote on Prop 39, your questions about it, and also what you want to know about the status of mail-in voting, which is very connected to this. And there’s been some recent developments around that as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The email address is forum at kqed.org. Find us on Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum. Call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Paul writes, “I’m a fan of the if-it-ain’t-broke, don’t-fix-it camp. We’ve had safe, secure, fraud-free elections for decades. Unless someone can come up with actual evidence of a problem with ineligible people casting ballots, I see no reason to create extra expense and inconvenience for both voters and election officials.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I want to take just a little bit of a step back and look at the status of the president’s efforts to restrict vote by mail. Not only because more than 80% of Californians now vote by mail, which I think is pretty incredible, according to the latest Secretary of State’s office, and would be affected by the type of rules that Proposition 39 would bring if passed. But also because there have been some recent developments that we can talk more into later, that the president has sort of changed his tune on voting by mail, even though he chooses to vote that way himself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But let’s just sort of step back and remember some of the initial steps the president took to try to restrict vote by mail. There was that executive order in March that directed federal agencies to take a series of steps on mail-in voting. Remind us what some of those were, Marisa.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, he’s made a number of attempts. I think there’s a previous executive order in 2025 as well, and that one’s the one this year sort of built on it. Essentially, there’s a couple buckets here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, one is that the federal government has been trying to force the states to essentially share their voter rolls with the feds and run them against, you know, whatever list the federal government has created of eligible citizens who can vote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s interesting, the problem with this. I was just doing an event with David Becker at the Center for Election Integrity and Research, and he was saying, you know, actually, states have much more accurate information about you and I, like, because I think some people would be like, why shouldn’t we share this with the federal government? But the truth is, like, the feds don’t have necessarily your Social Security number linked to your driver’s license number linked to other information about you. The state does.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so there’s been a huge pushback. Some Republican states have shared this information and handed over their voter rolls. States like California and many others, including some Republican states, have really balked, pushed back, sued. The courts have upheld that. So that information has not been passed on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, another bucket was, of course, the SAVE Act, which he has unsuccessfully tried to get through Congress, which would have been a very draconian voter ID measure. That would have required, potentially, basically made millions of people, or at least hundreds of thousands, ineligible to vote because you would have had to have your birth certificate match your current ID. And obviously, for women who got married and changed their name, for people — there’s a long list of people who would have been affected by that. Again, even Republicans in Congress have not been willing, or at the least in the —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The biggest fight that we see play out most recently as related to that executive order has been around the Postal Service’s role, or historic lack of role, in sort of overseeing election mail. And so the president wanted USPS to essentially have its own list of eligible voters and only send ballots to those people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So really injecting this federal agency that has never had any sort of contact with voting and elections into this entire process. Again, that’s been litigated. The Supreme Court upheld some lower court rulings, although mostly their decision, I think this is going to come back up, because what the Supreme Court said is essentially it’s too close to this election to do it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Lower courts have also said, look, Congress would need to delegate this responsibility to USPS. The president wanted the Postal Service to create special envelopes that would be the only ones you could use.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s a lot of concerns about this, most notably that this is not an agency that has any training around this. And also that we do have a very prescribed legal system around who gets to touch ballots in our country. It’s called chain of custody.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Folks probably heard it brought up in relation to that case in Riverside where the sheriff, Chad Bianco, seized tens of thousands of ballots and was slapped down by the California Supreme Court recently. You know, the reason for that is, like, we sort of consider these ballots sacred once they’re being, you know, before they’re counted, and even afterward, they are a record of, you know, what’s at the heart of our democracy. And if you break that chain of custody, it can undermine election results.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think the USPS stuff has really raised a lot of concerns. And again, you know, obviously, the president’s most loyal supporters are behind him. But I really think you have to look at how many of these election officials, a lot of whom are nonpartisan right on the local level, but also Republican secretaries of state in some cases, have stood up and been like, get out of here, we do not want the federal government messing with a system that goes remarkably well given how many —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Vote. The other thing that’s shaken voters, right, Guy, was the fact that there was a USPS whistleblower who basically said that the agency was sort of preparing to follow Trump’s executive order to some extent even though it had not been determined in the courts whether this was legal.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right. To push ahead with it regardless. And I think a big question, and Marisa raised as well, is just about the information that the federal government has versus the state has. And this executive order not only would have required states to put together a list of eligible voters, it also would have given the Department of Homeland Security a role in creating a list.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Have, like, approved voters, right, who would receive ballots. Right. And basically —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right, and basically double-checking between those two lists, what the state provides to the feds and the list the federal government puts together. And to Marisa’s point, the information that the Department of Homeland Security might have to put together such a list could potentially be incomplete.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so then you’d have basically them going between the state information, federal government information, and a big picture giving the USPS more power over vote-by-mail that they’ve never really had. I mean, the states have always had the authority over administering elections. This would have been a real departure from that in granting the USPS this authority.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And then, Guy, there was also that recent investigation from ProPublica that the Trump administration would have disrupted mail-in voting even further by requiring ballots to be delivered through certified mail. What would that have meant?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s a great question. I mean, in practice, like, how that actually would have worked, given the timelines of getting ballots out. Yeah, signing for the ballot as you would for certified mail. So, you know, I think — and especially the time — I think we have to think about, like, the timeline of a lot of these executive orders and the litigation around them. Ballots are ready, going out. I mean, in some states, they’ve been sent out. In California, this is the week where a lot of people are receiving their ballots in the mail. The court of the Supreme Court has always been hesitant to adjudicate election-related issues close to an election, and we certainly are close to election, given how many Americans already have their ballots and —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me go to some calls coming in. Omar in San Francisco, go ahead. You’re on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Omar:\u003c/strong> Hey, Mina. So this is just another attempt in a roundabout way of the Orange Foolius trying to create issues with the process that works. You know, absolutely great. They’re basically, and I hate to use this term, you know, Henny-Pennying or Chicken Littling the voting process to create a sense of fear or even complacency where they’re like, okay, we just don’t even wanna deal with it. And I think it’s just gotten ridiculous.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, we’ve been put up with this for four years once. We’re about two years through the process again. I know we’ll survive as a country. But how — how bad will we be after, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Omar, thanks for sharing where you’re at. I think you’re not alone.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Babesh writes, “The whole issue of voter fraud is a big lie perpetrated by Donald Trump. It’s sad that we’re wasting so much national energy and time discussing a non-issue, and it’s also corrosive in the long run to our democracy by reducing the faith in elections. The problem we should actually solve is how to get more people to vote in a democracy.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Interestingly, though, the way this is polling — and was polling initially, too — it looked like it had a lot of bipartisan support.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the polling around voter ID is fascinating because, taken in a vacuum, the idea of requiring identification before people vote, adding that extra level of security, is popular.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Even in California, I mean, Berkeley, this is the best snapshot we have of this. In the spring, Berkeley did a survey where they asked voters about just that idea: What is being proposed in Proposition 39, voter ID at the polls and also through by mail. Fifty-six percent of voters approved of that idea.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They then said, okay, well, what if we tell you a little bit more about the arguments for and against, some of the, you know, pros and cons that we’ve discussed on this show? It suddenly dropped to about even — 37% yes, 35% no.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then they asked, okay, well, I’m going to tell you who’s supporting this idea and who’s opposing it. All of a sudden, completely flipped. Yes down to 39%, no 52%.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So we go from 56% yes to 39% yes based on who’s actually lining up for and against this idea. That 39% yes is exactly where Prop 39 is still polling.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So more than anything, I think this measure and this idea has been incredibly red- and blue-coded. As soon as voters are aware of the groups behind it and the supporters of it, their support for the idea plummets.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, I think Lane is sort of related here. Lane in San Francisco writes, “I think many people may have the attitude that it is not that difficult to just show identification if you want to vote,” which we may attribute to the fact that it was polling pretty evenly initially.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Lane writes, “Please clarify for listeners the many reasons why it may be difficult for some people to get ID. What about all of the fire victims that have lost their documents? What about foster children that may not have access to their birth certificates and other documents required to get identification?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So there is a step, of course, to prove that you are eligible to vote through the registration process, but yes, there’s lots of reasons that documents are tough to get.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And it’s why in many states, even states that have voter ID rules, oftentimes you’ll see provisions that voters can still bring forth identification that’s not like your driver’s license. Arizona, for example, you can bring a utility bill and, like, a bank statement. Others are more strict and they really will require a photo ID requirement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But even states that have gone ahead and enacted voter ID, I think understand in some cases that the actual photo ID as the sole document you have to provide can in some cases be challenging for people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> But I also think we need to put this in the context of our history and the voter suppression efforts that have occurred and have often been very racially motivated. I’m thinking about, obviously, coming out of slavery and the Jim Crow era and the idea that there are states in this day and age who will say, you can use your gun license as a voter ID, but you may not use a student ID.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, like, I think — again, I think some of the opposition to these laws, like, yes, it sounds sort of reasonable, and in some ways it is, right, to say, and we all do show an ID, we all prove who we are when we register to vote in California. But this is a country that has a long history of using these types of laws to particularly suppress the votes of certain populations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I just, like, I think we have to put that in context, and I think it also speaks to why, when voters learn more about this in a state like California that is deep blue, in this hyper-partisan moment, when people are so angry at the president, it explains why people are like, mm, I’m good on this, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think, like, this is not really as much on either side in some ways about the policy. It’s about the sort of moment and the distrust.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> If this goes down in California, Marisa, do you think that essentially this issue — it will be the end of this issue in this state? Or do you think that there will be an attempt to try to re-energize it and bring it back up later?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I mean, that’s an interesting question. How many times have we seen ballot measures fail and then come back? I don’t know. I do think this is a bit of a canary in the coal mine for Republicans. I’m not sure we’ll see it come back right away. If it fails, I think it would depend on how close it is, what else is going on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But certainly we are seeing national figures donate money on the right to try to push this through. The bigger thing would be if it passes, what lessons are learned from that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Interestingly, there was a piece in CalMatters, Guy, that was saying that these big donors who are watching the Prop 39 fight in California are contending that, yes, it may not pass here, but that they’re gauging how much it loses by. Why would that information be important?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I mean, maybe they feel like, you know, this particular election, the turnout that we expect in November is going to be pro-Democratic, right, given the national mood. The idea that they would fare better in a different electoral environment — this is not polling within the margin of error right now, right? This is like the yes side is trailing in all available public polling.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m not sure a signal that it’s, you know, four or five points one way or another would make them feel like, oh, if we brought this back in 2028, we’d have an entirely different result.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> But my sense is that it’s probably not gonna go away in other states, that’s for sure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right. I mean, we are seeing — I mean, just this year, there’s Arizona, Nevada, a handful of other states have voter ID measures on the ballot. Oklahoma, in their primary, enshrined voter ID into their state constitution. So this is a live issue on the ballot in states throughout the country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And again, it’s interesting to me because states like Georgia and Arizona, for example, have actually higher or similar voter turnout to what we do here. And they have pretty strict voter ID laws.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Again, though, I think, like, how something is crafted matters. I do think that in this moment when there’s so much concern over how quickly we count ballots here and the resource levels of registrars already not being where they need to be to do the work, like, this is going to add another layer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it’s sort of ironic because I think the same people who are pushing this measure are the ones who are screaming about how undemocratic it is and how problematic it is that we take so long to count our vote here in California. Well, this would just expand that further, and I think give them more ability to attack the integrity of the election.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s not being talked about enough. We have this whole separate discussion about how long it takes to count ballots. Is adding a new — you have to write a four-digit number, have that be double-checked — that could add more time. If you show up to vote and you don’t have an ID and suddenly now you have cast a provisional ballot, that takes added time on the backend to check.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I don’t see anything in this measure that’s going to speed up the ballot count, which has been a very contentious discussion.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It has been. I’m just curious what you make of that discussion. You know, if you feel like there are merits to the criticism of how long it takes for California to count its votes, you know, or others who just feel like, look, we’re a big state. We have a lot of people. We have a lot of different county offices and so on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I mean, that is true. It is taking longer because we are a big state in which a large number of people vote by mail and return those ballots on Election Day. But that’s not to say that it cannot be faster.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If there was more, you know, money in the system, if there were more people counting the ballots, if there were more machines to count the ballots, like, it’s not — you just say, oh, well, because so many people vote by mail, throw your hands up. It has to be this. I’m not — I don’t entirely buy that argument.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking this hour about Proposition 39, the ballot measure that would institute stricter voter ID requirements when casting a ballot or voting by mail. Guy Marzorati is a correspondent on KQED’s California Politics and Government Desk. So is Marisa Lagos. She also co-hosts KQED’s Political Breakdown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Listeners, do you want to share how you’re planning to vote, the questions you have about 39, the reasons you’re voting one way or the other, and what do you wanna know about the status of mail-in voting? The latest restrictions, the latest developments around that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The email address is forum at kqed.org. Find us on Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And this listener — Noelle writes, “I volunteered at a vote center for the primary election in June. The Registrar of Voters has made it a priority to get all eligible voters to vote. There are so many options of how you can vote. It made me feel glad. And working with the other poll workers who are naturalized citizens and who knew other languages was another highlight for me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“One of the poll workers lived in a senior housing apartment complex and one of her neighbors came to vote. The voter was 94 and needed help from the poll worker neighbor. And it was heartwarming to see that this person felt it was important to vote.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So just a heartwarming story about voting and the importance of it here in California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ll have more after the break. Listeners, this is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Prop 39 is a ballot measure that would institute stricter voter ID requirements when you cast a ballot or vote by mail. Supporters say the rules are common-sense safeguards essential for restoring public confidence in elections. Opponents contend that they pose all sorts of problems, including potentially disenfranchising groups of voters and increasing the risk of identity theft.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Marisa Lagos and Guy Marzorati have been covering this and are talking about it with you, our listeners, at 866-733-6786, at the email address forum at kqed.org, and on our social channels at KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And this listener, Jason, writes, “Prop 39 is a terrible idea. I’m already dealing with identity theft. The last thing I need is California making it easier for bad actors by requiring me to advertise the last four numbers of a form of identification.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, we were talking about some of the things that have shaken people’s confidence in the U.S. Postal Service, and also about some of the issues related to the requirements around mail-in ballots, which nearly 90% of Californians now do, or at least did in the primary election. So vast majority of Californians vote this way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I wanna, well, first let’s clarify. Marisa, has anything changed at USPS? Will ballots be affected by any changes at USPS this election?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I mean, yes, not actually differently from the primary, but yes, maybe since 2024 previously. Especially if you’re in a more rural area, there have been some changes to the way ballots are essentially gathered and processed that can delay when you get a postmark.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So it’s not just because you put your ballot in a mailbox on November 2nd, the day before the election, does not mean that USPS will put a November 2 postmark on it. And so I think, you know —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So they’re postmarking when it’s received at the facility, when it is processed?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And sometimes if you’re in, say, the Sacramento area or closer to Lake Tahoe, it might be sent to like a Reno processing center before it gets sent back here. So for the postmark. For the postmark.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the bottom line is, like, it’s first of all, if you need to vote by actual USPS mail, I think the best advice these days is try to get in the mail up to a week before the election. Like, don’t wait until the days before.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the best thing to do is either put it in one of those county drop boxes. Those do not rely on the postal service at all. The county registrar actually comes and collects those in most counties every single day at the end of the day. And they postmark the day that they were in the box. And they will essentially count it as being received that day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Or you can mail — you know, take your mail-in ballot, take your time at home, love it, cuddle it, whatever you need to do, and then walk it into a voting center, whether that’s on Election Day or previously, preferably previously, because the sooner you get your ballots in, the less we have to hear national folks complaining about how long our vote count takes, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But you can actually — it’s called naked voting, I learned recently — where you basically go in and feed your ballot in at the voting center without the mail-in envelope in it. So there’s multiple options, and I think — but again, I think the ballot drop boxes, if you wanna vote by mail and you don’t wanna be hassled with finding a voting center, are probably the best option.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then — there’s early voting in a lot of counties too. So you can actually just go in and, like, cast your ballot in person a week or two before the election.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That naked balloting that Marisa’s talking about, Guy, that sounds like just a little bit different than what you say a lot of Californians do, which is drop off their ballot at the voting site the day of the election. This would mean actually taking it out of the envelope and having them process it right in front of you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right, so that the processing doesn’t happen on the back end, so that it’s more akin to voting in person and that the vote is actually processed right there. That does help speed up the vote count.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I should point folks — our colleague Izzy Bloom did a great explainer on all the changes to USPS, how that might affect voting. Encourage folks, go to KQED, check that out. She talked to the registrar of voters in Sonoma County, who said, point: we’re not encouraging people to use USPS.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I do, I agree with Marisa, there’s so many drop boxes in counties. I mean, where I live in San Jose, the drop box is closer than the post office. And I will just — I’ll second that. I think if you’re voting close to Election Day, don’t be, you know, you would hate to be that person that you spend that time filling out your ballot, you return it, it ends up getting postmarked after Election Day. Just use a drop box.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And I understand if you really do want to get that postmark or make sure you see that postmark, another thing that Izzy wrote about — and you’re right, that piece is excellent, and I highly recommend people read it — that you go in and get a hand-stamped postmark right there, right in front of you. Yeah, you can go into the post office as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Again, these are adding the extra steps, so I do think, you know, I think it’s also just worth just thinking about making a plan. You know, like, what is my plan? Maybe it’s setting a time sometime the weekend before the election, if you don’t have time before then, or two weekends before, to just sit down and do this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We have a long ballot in San Francisco and California in particular. I mean, there’s 14 statewide ballot measures. I can’t remember how many city ones this year, but add another handful to that. A lot of counties, you know, L.A. has a big mayor’s race. We have congressional races. There’s a lot to pour over.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A lot of these ballot measures are confusing in some cases on purpose. And so I think that giving yourself that time and then making a plan is really important. And it’s just, like I said, to do all that work and then to find out it wasn’t counted is just incredibly discouraging.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And you can track your ballot once you put it out there so that you can. And again, if you want more details about that, listeners, that’s in the piece.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is from Berkeley writes, “I’d always assumed that proponents of restrictive voting policies wanted to preferentially reduce progressive or Democratic turnout, but a more sinister interpretation seems more likely now. A desire to reduce turnout overall, making it easier for those in power to run roughshod over public interests in favor of politicians’ interests. Are there documents from whistleblowers or leaks that explicitly clarify the genuine intentions of those behind voter ID proposals?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I don’t know if the person who blew the whistle at the USPS —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I would say there’s, for this one in California, I would describe probably a few different motives. I mean, this is a policy that Republicans have championed across the country. I do think this was an organizing opportunity for Republicans, specifically Carl DeMaio. I mean, he started this group, Reform California, and they’ve gone through the process of collecting signatures to get this on the ballot, fundraising. So this really was a big grassroots organizing opportunity for DeMaio and Republicans in California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, so, and as far as, like, fewer people voting, that is, you know, when the Legislative Analyst’s Office analyzed Prop 39 and said, okay, here’s where it would cost the state money. Here’s where we’d save the state. One of the ways that they said it could save the state money is just fewer people voting as a result of this, though the cost would still — this would still cost the state money from having to send out these new, uh, potential ID cards and, you know, the paperwork and —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And then the registrars would have to do more work on the back end.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Corey in San Francisco writes, “What’s to stop the federal government from not sending ballots disproportionately to one party if the federal government gets more information, for example?” That was the only fear that was raised. Trump not sending ballots to Democrats or minorities or women, I feel like this — that’s his end game.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Okay, can we just talk about where the efforts to restrict mail-in voting will go from here, especially since its loudest champion for restrictions, the president, has recently been changing his tune and telling Republican voters to vote by mail?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it’s really remarkable, you know, this shift. I just want to point out, like, he has said mail-in voting means mail-in cheating, and then just recently he posted this on Truth Social.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Donald Trump:\u003c/strong> Do not wait. Go out and vote. Vote early, vote by mail, or vote in person on Election Day, November 3rd.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Vote often, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> How should we interpret this sort of change of message?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I mean, cynically, I think is fair, because we’ve seen this before, right? Like, he spends, you know, a year or two years trying to undercut confidence in our elections, claiming all this fraud, and then looks around and realizes on the eve of an election that matters to Republicans that, hey, this could actually depress their vote as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, we saw this in 2024 and 2022 as well, so I don’t think it’s anything different, and I would not expect that it means a change of heart by the president. I think what we are going to see is him continue to try to push some of these attempts at making it harder to vote and inserting the federal government into the elections.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If Republicans lose the House, and especially if they lose the House and the Senate, he’s going to have even less chance of doing that legislatively. So I think we can expect more lawsuits, more executive orders, and a lot of rhetoric.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think that’s really important to note. And this is something, like, I just want to say, because we’ve been spending a lot of time on Political Breakdown thinking about and talking about election integrity. And I’ve been spending a lot of time talking to folks, nonpartisan experts on this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think what’s really important is that so much of what the president has done, I think, is really aimed at scaring people, right? When you think about things like these sort of — this idea they floated out there that they might have troops or ICE at the polls, the idea that they may try to sort of come in and take control from states and counties, none of that is constitutional.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And even if, you know, there were attempts to do it, I think that they would be very limited and very much aimed, again, at sort of intimidating people and officials, not in actually being able to disrupt the election.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the folks I talked to who have done this work for a long time say that, you know, we should have confidence that this election will go off well. I think the thing I’m going to be watching is what happens after the election. Is there any attempts to disrupt vote counts, to seize ballots? Are there any attempts, you know, to sort of mess with things when we talk about the seating of the House on January 3rd?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if, you know, if Republicans lose, is the speaker going to try to do something to prevent Democrats from being seated? I think that’s a pretty far-off, you know, thing. But I do think we spend so much time thinking about, like, how do people vote? I want us to still stay on our toes and be watching things after the votes come in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> And I think also a lot of this, like, you have to look through the lens of a pre-buttle. Even before Trump’s approval dropped to how low it is, the president typically does poorly in a midterm election. And I would think it would surprise no one if the day after the election he comes out and says, well, if we had only passed, you know, stricter voter requirements, we wouldn’t have had this, you know, Democratic wins in the House, the Senate, et cetera.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It sounds like you’re essentially saying that, you know, timing-wise, there’s gonna be vote by mail in this midterm election, and he does not need people not voting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> One hundred percent. You can’t — and you can change anything related to that within 90 days of the election. Like, that is established.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And I’m sure there were members of his own party telling him —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I mean, that’s not — I didn’t see the video, but it sounded like he was reading off a script. Oh, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, you know, essentially, I think that is part of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Let me remind listeners first, you are listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. But Guy, to Marisa’s point, you very much covered the attempted seizure — or the seizure — of ballots and the attempt to hold onto them by Riverside County Sheriff Chad Bianco, and that, you know, the state Supreme Court had made a ruling in that. Tell us what the ruling is and whether people should feel more confident that that is unlikely — seizures of ballots might be unlikely to happen here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so the ruling was basically that Chad Bianco, the sheriff in Riverside County, broke the law when he seized ballots from the 2025 election in an attempted investigation into what he purported to be potential voter fraud in Riverside County.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Supreme Court both said that he had no right to do that, that there was a clear law as far as the chain of custody for ballots. Even in the course of an investigation, those ballots should have never been taken out of the Registrar of Voters office.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the Supreme Court also affirmed the attorney general’s power to have tried to halt Bianco’s investigation. And I think that’s an important thing to keep an eye on, too. The attorney general really does have very broad powers in California, authority over sheriffs and district attorneys.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But this was one of the first times that court really confronted that question over the limits of their power over sheriffs. And it found that it didn’t set a limit. It basically said this was in Bonta’s authority to have told Bianco, stop this investigation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That could be something with a tail to November or October if we see some kind of, you know, action leading up or after the election on the part of local law enforcement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because I do think state lawmakers, vast majority Democrats, are kind of caught in this push and pull. They’re trying to fend off federal efforts to intercede more in elections, but they’re also dealing with a lot of things popping up at the local level.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, Riverside County was probably the most notable example with Bianco’s investigation, but the state has also been in litigation with Shasta County, where there were efforts to restrict vote-by-mail.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think you see Attorney General Rob Bonta really at the fulcrum here between litigating against the federal government, trying to, you know, prevent changes to vote-by-mail there, but also almost in a whack-a-mole fashion banging on some of these local officials who, you know, he feels might have overstepped their — when it comes to involving themselves in the election process.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, interestingly, Steve writes, “Since 1999, I’ve served as a poll worker in over 20 elections in three different California counties. Anyone who thinks elections are rigged or not secure should serve as a poll worker in just one election. I’ll bet they’d have a very different perspective after that. The problem isn’t with the security of elections on the county level, Steve feels. If there’s the potential for problems, it’s going to be from the intrusion of the current federal administration.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We have another poll worker, Ruth, who writes, “I volunteer for VoteRiders, trying to get voter IDs for people who have the right to vote but lack the ID their state requires. There are 28 million people who meet that definition. It costs $50 for a birth certificate. You need a photo ID to get a Social Security card. You sometimes need a Social Security card to get the photo ID. So it’s easy to fall into a loop where you can’t get an ID. Add in those who don’t drive, the disabled, the old, the young. This is one party trying to make sure these 28 million voices are never heard.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Certainly, we are hearing resoundingly, at least from our listenership today who are contributing, that they very much do not support Proposition 39 and see it as essentially, as you were saying initially, a solution in search of a problem.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Let me go to Laura in Lafayette, who’s on the line. Laura, go ahead.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura:\u003c/strong> Thanks. Thanks for taking my call, Mina. Yeah, I just want to say, you know, there are measures in place to combat voter fraud. And a friend of mine, whose son was studying out of state, she called him, filled out his ballot, put his signature on there — her signature on there — and got a call from the registrar and said, hey, you, this is not his signature.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So just for that, it was obvious that they’re looking at the ballots, they’re the signatures, and so there are measures in place.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Laura, thanks for sharing your experience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Joan writes, “No system is perfect. So a fraction of 1% of votes having problems is as close to perfect as anyone will ever get. If we had a crystal ball, Prop 39 would raise, not lower the voting problems, especially because it is not motivated by good intentions.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Al writes, “I have to prove my identity at Wells Fargo to make a deposit. And I am a customer. My kid had to show photo ID to take the SAT test. I had to ID to register my car at DMV. Is my vote more important? All vote yes.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s the first person that we’ve heard who’s going to vote yes. Thanks for sharing where you’re at with this, Al.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Claude writes, “I’m 76 years old and have voted straight Republican for 40-plus years. Never again. Voter ID is to ensure only Republicans can vote,” in Claude’s opinion.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Marisa.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Like, it is interesting that it’s become so partisan in this moment. And again, like, I think historically that tracks with how things have played out over decades in this nation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Although, to be fair, you know, back during the Jim Crow era, a lot of the folks in the South were Democrats who were trying to suppress the Black vote. I don’t think in itself voter ID is the problem.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But we have not had, like, a good sort of bipartisan effort to come together and figure out a way that would both sort of allow people to have as much access as possible and also have voter ID.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think there are states that have voter ID laws that, you know, are perfectly reasonable and, like I said, that have very high voter —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Turnout.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I think the problem is, like, we just have such a problem with voter participation to begin with in our country and our state particularly. I mean, California does make it as easy as possible. And we still lag other states often in turnout.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so that — that is troubling because our democracy does work better when everyone’s engaged. It does.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And I think you were touching on this earlier, Marisa, if I may, when you were talking about our history with it. Fundamentally, too, there just may be different views with regard to who should vote in this country. Like, who should really be determining the leadership for all of us as a nation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I mean, I think we’ve seen that historically. I remember feeling like that in college, that there was a sense, you know, in a lot of college towns that folks who live there permanently were mad that college students got to say as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think you see this often with the way people talk about, like, yeah, who should have a role in things. And, you know, we all get to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Alona in Richmond writes, “As an experienced volunteer at the polls, I suggest everyone who has doubts about the process of voting in this state also volunteer. It is so much better to make these judgments from knowledge and experience rather than from ignorance and fear.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ve been talking about Prop 39 with Guy Marzorati. Thank you so much, Guy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Thanks, Mina.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And Marisa Lagos.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Thanks, Marisa.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> My pleasure. And with you, listeners, my thanks to you always for sharing where you are and how you are doing on \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Airdate: Monday, September 29, 2026 at 10am\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Facebook whistleblower Frances Haugen leaked tens of thousands of pages of internal documents that were published in a 2021 Wall Street Journal exposé, now the basis of the forthcoming film “The Social Reckoning.” The documents revealed that the tech giant knew its engagement-driven algorithms accelerated political polarization, increased teenage mental health issues and incited ethnic violence abroad, and Haugen argued that Mark Zuckerberg routinely prioritized user growth and corporate profits over public safety. In her memoir “The Power of One: How I Found the Strength to Tell the Truth and Why I Blew the Whistle on Facebook,” Haugen details the personal and professional cost of exposing Meta and going public.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen\u003c/strong>, data scientist and author of “The Power of One: How I Found the Strength to Tell the Truth and Why I Blew the Whistle on Facebook”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Aaron Sorkin’s follow-up to the 2010 film \u003cem>The Social Network\u003c/em>, about the founding of Facebook, comes out next week, called \u003cem>The Social Reckoning\u003c/em>. This time, it’s about the 2021 revelations that Facebook knew its platform stoked division and harmed kids, especially teen girls, and did not act. Revelations that came to light after Frances Haugen decided to secretly leak thousands of internal documents to \u003cem>Wall Street Journal\u003c/em> reporter Jeff Horwitz. Haugen’s memoir, \u003cem>The Power of One: How I Found the Strength to Tell the Truth and Why I Blew the Whistle on Facebook\u003c/em>, is out in paperback this month, and she joins me now. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, Frances.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> Thank you for inviting me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What did you think of the film? I assume you got a preview.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> I did get to see it maybe two weeks ago, and I was really impressed because ever since conversations have begun on, you know, should they make a movie out of this? I’ve always been a little baffled, like, how do you make exciting taking a bunch of pictures? And, you know, Aaron Sorkin worked his magic, and it’s exciting and funny and all the things that you associate with an Aaron Sorkin movie. Um, so it was real surreal, and, um, it’s so odd seeing yourself up on the big screen. I’ll put it that way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I was going to say it must be surreal. How?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> And, you know, it’s one of these things. So there are parts of my experience where, you know, I don’t ruminate on what happened five years ago. You know, I have a wonderful life that is not related to social media. And there are parts of it that he depicted really well that, once I watched them, I was like, oh, yeah, I did write about that. That did happen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I’ll give you an example. You know, there were things that I had high levels of certainty about when I first started talking to Jeff. And there are things that I didn’t know, but I knew there were known unknowns when I started talking to Jeff. And they did a really good job of capturing that. Like, there was a period of time where we were trying to fit the puzzle pieces together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think it’s an important thing to remind people that these topics aren’t just complicated for, like, everyday people. They’re complicated for people who know a lot about them. And they did a great job of depicting that quest for understanding.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, they had Mikey Madison play you, the Oscar winner, and then Jeremy Allen White plays Jeff Horwitz. Did she get some of the details right or things that you had actually forgotten?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, like I was saying, like some of those things about the process of, like, you know, how did we create — I’ll say create meaning, right? Like, it’s one thing to have a giant stack of paper, and it’s another thing to be like, you know, why did this happen? What were all the dominoes that, like — because it’s very easy to tell a story about someone who’s evil, right? It’s like, oh, well, they did bad things because they wanted to hurt other people. You know, that almost never is the real story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, the movie does a really good job of depicting that there were different dependencies. There were things that the company was trying to navigate around. And they made choices that were short-sighted, that had really serious consequences. They were warned about them, but they were complicated. Like, it was — there were different balls in motion. And unfortunately, because there wasn’t the right either external oversight or internal guidance or leadership, bad choices were made.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I was also just wondering about the small details of you and your personality, whether those —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> So, it’s funny. Like, the thing that struck me the most was, um, so I have a vasospastic problem. So that means, uh, when I get colder than about 83 degrees Fahrenheit, um, I start to lose sensation in my hands and feet. So, like, right now, sitting in New York on kind of a drizzly day, I have, like, little heaters in my shoes because it allows me to, like, be comfortable enough. I can talk to you, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, I live in Puerto Rico today, and, um, it was wild watching her wear wrist warmers throughout the entire movie, which sounds like such a tiny detail. But I walked away from it being like, oh my God, like, I’ve done a lot of mental energy not thinking about this because being forced to watch her do this for two hours, I was like, wow, this is really disruptive. Like, this has actually been, like, a large — this is actually, you know, it’s like one of these things where you hear your voice recorded for the first time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, there were wrist warmers that she wore where I was like, I have knit wrist warmers that look exactly like those. You know, like, it’s so — I never told them about any of that. That’s all stuff that they summoned from the creative void.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow. And probably, well, you know, you do talk about your health issues and, interestingly, how dealing with them was sort of the hardest thing you’ve ever done, even harder than blowing the whistle on Facebook, though in a way the two are connected. But how so?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you know, originally when I set out to write a memoir, one of the things I was hoping to kind of, um, you know — there’s this interesting question that comes up in interviews over and over again. It’s like, you know, how are you able to do this? You know, like, it knew there were lots of people who had a chance to do this. You actually did it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think if people, if you talk to an average person about, like, why do they not follow their heart? And this could be about something way smaller than taking down a big company like Facebook. They’ll say things to you about they’re worried they’ll lose their job, they’ll lose their home, they’ll lose their partner. They’ll — they start to catastrophize, like, all these things that are kind of the pillars that we think are ourselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And over a period of time of, like, two years, like a pretty short period of time, like, I lost all those things because, like, you know, I started to get sick initially, and we didn’t know why. And my then boss thought I was faking the need for a wheelchair. So I went from needing to — I could ride 200 kilometers, so 125 miles, in a day on a bike — to being in a wheelchair in two and a half years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, you lose your job, you just — domino, domino, domino. And the process of having to put my life back together, you know, I don’t wish what happened to me on anyone else, but one of the things that it gave me was the realization that we think these things are who we are. You know, if we lost these things, how could we ever come back?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the reality is that we have so much more strength inside of ourselves than we give ourselves credit for until we have to use it. And so when I ended up in a situation where there were potentially consequences, you know, like, I weighed the odds. I thought it was, like, a reasonable risk.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, you know, I knew that I had already come back from having so little. And so it didn’t feel like a binary choice. It wasn’t like I was going to give up everything to do what I thought was right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You had already sort of experienced it and survived. Let me invite listeners into the conversation. What do you want to ask Frances Haugen or tell Frances, the Facebook whistleblower? Do you remember when those disclosures surfaced, the Facebook Files? And what effect did it have on you, listeners — your use of Facebook or Meta products, or how you thought about the company or tech companies more broadly, social media companies?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can email \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> at kqed.org, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram at KQED Forum, and you can call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Right, if you were gonna whistle-blow on a major company, you could have a lot of terrible things happen to you, including losing your job or losing people close to you — colleagues, friends, family and so on. But you had already sort of experienced that because, as you say, you know, your health deteriorated and ultimately you were pushed out of Google, right? That’s where you were when a lot of this was starting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> So when — so I got hired straight out of college to Google, and it was the, you know, they paid for grad school. So I was, I think, I’m pretty sure I was the first MBA they ever paid for an MBA. I was there for seven, seven and a half years, something like that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it was really heartbreaking in the moment. But I look at it and, you know, I ended up kind of getting to follow one of my great passions, which is I love social software. It’s like in the movie, they talk about, like, “I’m not here to hurt Facebook.” The only way Facebook can actually heal itself or have a long-term future is if they deal with their problems, right? And the way the system was set up and the system of incentives, they were never going to be able to make the choices they needed to make internally without having some external pressure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, I never would have gone to work at Pinterest if I hadn’t left Google. I would have never ended up working at Yelp. I would’ve never ended up at Facebook. And even today, like, I still love social software. Like, I love connecting people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so sometimes the things that, you know, I would never have left Google if I hadn’t been given a little, you know, little shove. Because I loved — I loved to search. Like, I loved getting to see inside of people’s thoughts. You know, it was beautiful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You were reluctant, though, to take a job at Facebook when they recruited you in 2019. Talk about why.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> It was funny. When I went to go write my memoir, I went back and was looking through old emails and old chat logs and all these things, and I was definitely less polite than I usually am with people when the Facebook recruiter reached out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because for context, for listeners, Facebook has struggled to hire people mid-career and more senior for a long time. So even though they pay substantially more than other similar employers like Google or Amazon or Apple, that kind of thing, if you have more than maybe five years of work experience, there’s not a huge amount of demand for people to work there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And part of that is that, you know, going back, I think at least as far as maybe the early 2010s, so it’s been over 10 years that this has been going on. There was kind of a perception that Facebook, you know, their motto, their old motto of “move fast and break things” — you know, if you’re a person who is more conscientious or you want to work on a single thing for a couple of years, sounds like a really basic ask. Inside of Facebook, it’s so dynamic that they, for example, they thought they bet the whole company on the metaverse five years ago and now they’re doing AI, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, it’s a more chaotic place that might have other motivating principles than maybe making technology that… There’s a lot of utopian thinkers in Silicon Valley, and I think Facebook attracts fewer of them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And it certainly didn’t help with, you know, the after-effects of the 2016 presidential election or Cambridge Analytica, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> But so when they reached out, they were like, oh, do you want to work at Facebook? And I was like, the only thing I would want to work on is misinformation, because I had watched the consequences of it. But that’s another chapter.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and let’s get into that chapter right after the break. We’re talking with Frances Haugen, who leaked tens of thousands of pages of internal documents that were published in a 2021 \u003cem>Wall Street Journal\u003c/em> exposé called the Facebook Files and helped people realize that the tech giant knew its platforms harmed kids, was riddled with misinformation and did nothing to address it. Haugen’s story is the inspiration for the forthcoming film \u003cem>The Social Reckoning\u003c/em>, and we’ll talk more with her and with you after the break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Listeners, do you remember the Facebook Files, the 2021 \u003cem>Wall Street Journal\u003c/em> exposé that showed that Facebook knew its platform stoked division, harmed kids, was riddled with misinformation and did nothing to address it? Facebook whistleblower Frances Haugen was the reason that we learned about that, and her story is part of the forthcoming film \u003cem>The Social Reckoning\u003c/em>, that’s out next week. It’s a follow-up to 2010’s \u003cem>The Social Network\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And listeners, during the conversation, what do you remember about the Facebook Files? What effect did it have on you? Your use of Facebook or Meta products at the time? How you thought about the company? Did it give you insights or thoughts about the broader incentives of the tech industry?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What do you want to ask or tell Facebook whistleblower Frances Haugen, whose memoir, \u003cem>The Power of One\u003c/em>, is out in paperback this month? The email address is forum@kqed.org. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As you know, Frances, before the break, you know, you were excited about social software, and the film clips suggest that you also, you know, appreciated what Facebook was trying to do with regards to connecting people. But the company had changed or was changing, right, with regard to how it was going to keep people on the platform.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> So a big part of my revelations back in 2021 was trying to make the public aware that Facebook’s own researchers, over the course of a couple of years, talking to political parties across Europe on the left, on the right, talking to people in the United States, had found that changes they had made to the algorithm, the little computer program that chooses what content you get to see when you open up Facebook.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They made choices to that algorithm to try to encourage people to produce more content. And unfortunately, one of the side effects of those business choices was that it also gave the most distribution to the most emotionally intense content. And that had the unfortunate impact of political parties saying things like, we used to be able to run, say, a white paper on our agricultural policy, which we get is not super sexy. It’s not thrilling. But that’s, like, what democracy is actually about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, there’s all these things that are not super exciting, but people read them. We could see from the stats people engaged. Now, if we don’t do really inflammatory, you know, accusations, things that make people angry, they don’t get the same distribution. And unfortunately, when you put that at scale, it changes the conversations that we get to have.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, nothing short of, as you write in your memoir, defining the issues we voted on. I have to say, reading it was such a reminder of how powerful those changes could be. And, of course, you know, the mental and physical health of kids, especially teen girls, the effects of that was also very well documented. So, yeah, did you want to say something?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> I was gonna say, one of the things that I was really amazed by with the movie is, you know, my memoir is a book. You know, there’s a lot of conversation on a lot of different issues around Facebook. The issue that, you know, they could have chosen many different things to focus on is like the — we’ll call it the simplified version of what information I brought out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the factoid they chose to make the kind of the smoking gun was about Facebook ran research on how do people find extremist groups and join them on Facebook, at least circa 2021, 2020? And what they found was two-thirds of the people who joined groups that were actively violating Facebook’s rules on violence, calling for violence, calling active hate speech, active threats against, say, minorities, the government, was because Facebook recommended that group to them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And… When you say something like that, it sounds implausible. It’s like, wait, you already said this is against your rules. Like, why are you recommending a group that’s against your rules?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But when you have these systems, there have to be motivations to keep them safe. And the question is, how safe is safe enough? And we currently live in an environment where there is no check and balance on the company other than the company being like, how safe should we be?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that’s the world that I was living in when I brought forward the information in 2021.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you also connect Facebook to January 6th, and of course you talk about how you feel like the groups, you know, would not have grown as fast as they had, would not have been able to spread the lies of —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, to be real clear, that’s not my opinion. It’s the research that I brought out from Facebook. They had data scientists that went in there and, after the fact, were like, wait, like, how did Stop the Steal get so big so fast?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I feel particularly empathetic to the people who got arrested on January 6th and said, when I looked at my Facebook feed, it looked real. Like, everything I saw said, this is happening, this is happening, this was happening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when the researchers inside of Facebook went back and said, how did this happen? Facebook had in place rules that allowed a single person to invite 300,000 people to Stop the Steal groups. Or a small group of people founded tens of different Stop the Steal groups, even though that kind of behavior of doing kind of shadow organizations and pretending you’re all independent isn’t an allowed behavior on Facebook.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And part of the reason why all these safety measures that were on for the election were off was that Facebook fired the team whose job was to run those systems. So no one was in charge. No one was responsible for saying, oh, the temperature is starting to overheat. Like, maybe we shouldn’t run the platform at 11 or 12. Maybe we should just run it at, like, seven or eight.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> How much did the film make quite a bit about how you really wanted to get to the bottom of how a friend of yours was radicalized? How much of that was, in fact, something that really prompted you to start to question Facebook?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> So part of why I was willing to take the job in the first place, because when I was offered the job back in spring of 2019, you know, I went and asked a variety of friends for feedback on, like, should I take this job? Like, I feel very conflicted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, on one side I see there’s a lot of opportunity for someone with my specific skill set. So someone who’s worked really intimately with the kinds of software that picks out what people see in their home feed, right? Like, I’d already done that job at Pinterest. I’d worked on, at that point, it would have been my fourth social network.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I could see that there was an opportunity to have impact, but I also was like, do I really wanna deal with something this messy?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the thing that pushed me to engage with it was that back in 2016, I had watched a friend who had been, like, very passionately for Bernie Sanders. After he lost the primary, he became very disillusioned. And, like, when he went on social media, like, he progressively got shown more and more extreme content that was not really related to our, like, consensus reality.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And watching him, like, passionately defend to me that, like, George Soros ran the world economy was like a terrifying experience for me because, like, if a smart, like, well-educated, like, someone who loved to consume information about the world, if being online could push them to be like, oh, we can’t even talk about newspapers because newspapers are all lies, you know, how do you come back from that level of disconnection or, like, estrangement?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, if it can happen to him, it can happen to anyone. And so that’s why I originally took the job.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Jay in San Francisco writes, how did Frances get direct access to all those documents? If Facebook had incriminating documents, I’m surprised that they’d be available for any employee to see. Can you answer Jay’s question and also just the painstaking role you had to play getting those documents to Jeff Horwitz at the \u003cem>Wall Street Journal\u003c/em>?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> So, one of the downsides of being someone who works a lot with data is that it can make you, like, a little — a little paranoid, because you can imagine all the ways, if you were trying to catch yourself, like, how would you catch yourself?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so I followed, like, fairly tight cybersecurity. So I had a separate laptop that never had been connected to the internet. I had a phone that I don’t think even had a SIM card in it. Like, that is a small deviation on the movie. They have a flip phone in the movie, and I had, like, basically a phone with a touchscreen, but not an iPhone, just like a generic Android.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I had to go through and take pictures of each individual page, like one page at a time on my screen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It was interesting, he makes a great point. So, like, how did I have access to what I had access to? So for some things, I really got the accidental things that slipped through their net. So when it comes to, like, kids, for example, only about 10% of the pages I brought out were about kids.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when the court — the people who, the lawyers representing children who had been hurt, families that had been hurt, the attorneys general — were able to subpoena for pages, you know, I brought out maybe a couple thousand pages, they were able to get millions of pages about kids. So the stuff that we found out about kids was really the stuff that, like, by using the — you know, I’d worked on multiple search engines by the time I was at Facebook. You know, using all the kind of little tricks around, you know, could we search for this? Could we search this? Like, they just didn’t lock it down quite hard enough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But for all the stuff around political polarization, about how Facebook was influencing what ideas were allowed to be spread on the platform, I was exposed to a lot of that because I had worked on the teams that were looking at the algorithms, that were trying to understand why were we seeing things like ethnic violence in Myanmar, or later I worked on the working group that worked on the violence in Ethiopia. So it just happened to be that I had direct access because I worked on those issues.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Hmm. Listener Stopna writes, those of us who are in the mental health field know that the damage from social media is long-term and pervasive. I was aware that many tech companies, especially gaming companies, were hiring psychiatrists to make their products more addictive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think in search of that big idea and wanting to break things, ethics will likely take a back seat in this industry, absent accountability. You know, you’ve talked about, of course, the profit motive at Facebook and the pressures from shareholders and so on and so forth. But you also note that there was sort of a paranoia on the part of Zuckerberg of a Facebook killer that would come to displace the company.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> So we forget that the tech environment we live in today, it’s not eternal, right? Even Facebook, who’s at this point been around for more than 20 years, at some point it killed MySpace, which was, like, even bigger than Facebook back in 2004, 2005. Before that there was Friendster, which was very, very similar to Facebook.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Facebook could see elsewhere in the world that products would surge. So, for example, when Instagram was bought, Instagram only had, you know, they had less than 15 employees, and yet it sold for a billion dollars. And the reason why it was worth that much money with so few employees was Facebook had an app that it was paying people to run on their phones to report back on what apps they were using. And they could see that this little tiny photo-sharing app had exploded over the —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so social media is only as strong as the most recent wave of success it’s had. And so Mark’s always looking for what he can buy next, but he hasn’t been allowed to buy a big acquisition in a number of years now because of antitrust reasons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Did that paranoia drive his decision to also essentially offer or make his platform available in some of the most impoverished countries?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> One of the biggest motivators for me when I became a whistleblower was going into the company. I was very focused on our experience here in the United States. My friend is in the States, I’m in the United States. I’m watching, say, the 2016 election play out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just to remind people, because we forget what the internet was like in 2016. There were viral stories that were seen by tens of millions of people, 100 million people in the United States, like “Trump endorses — excuse me, Pope endorses Donald Trump.” Right? Like, things that today we’d be like, we don’t generally see that level of absurdity go that viral, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But when I joined the company, I learned a lot about how Facebook was being used outside the United States. So as an English speaker, speaking to other likely English speakers, we take for granted that we have a really rich and vibrant open internet that we can interact with. You know, if you don’t like a company, you don’t like a news source, there are alternatives.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Facebook went into some of the most fragile places in the world when no one was online. So we’re talking mid-2010s, early 2010s, and said, hey, we want you to be able to access the wonder of the internet, specifically Facebook. If you use our products, your dot is free. If you want to use anything else, you’re going to pay for it yourself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so in a lot of countries around the world, you know, you might not have a business webpage, you just have a Facebook page. Or even a newspaper might not do its own page, it might have a group and push out content through that Facebook group.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the difference between having an open internet where you get options and choices and competition and having a closed internet like that is that if the company, Facebook, doesn’t choose to invest in your safety, there aren’t other opportunities to get those safety needs met.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And what we found, I found in just the first couple months working at Facebook, was that while Facebook said we really care about everyone in the world, even though only about 11% of users spoke English, over half the safety budget was focused on English. You know, if you weren’t in Western Europe, if you were in the United States, you got very, very little safety investment comparatively.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And so even though it was providing this incentive for a closed network, it wasn’t doing anything to ensure or police that network, essentially. And you also connect that and others to violence or division and issues in these smaller countries.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> Well, that was kind of one of the wild things in the last six months I was at Facebook was in Ethiopia, a very large ethnic conflict emerged that was fueled by an information operation not even run inside the country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So in the case of Myanmar, the Burmese government built out a whole bunch of digital assets so that they could run an information operation against the Rohingya, their Muslim minority, to say, hey, you need to go after these people. These people are dangerous.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the case of Ethiopia, you had expats. So these are people who have left the country because there was an authoritarian government. You know, they’d been displaced. And they ran an information operation on their own back against the people inside their country, stoking division.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And one of the things that we need to remember, and I watched very, very front row in my last about year in the company, is that the nation-state actors know how cheap it is to run information operations. They know how little was invested in preventing them from freely operating.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in an open democracy like the United States, you know, we are very vulnerable to having our discourse influenced by people going in there and pushing ideas into groups or silencing people who might ask questions because it’s way more effective to make us fight each other than have someone outside fight us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it’s interesting, too, how you talk about, you know, the effect of your leaks. Like, your motivation was to come forward because you were concerned about tens of millions of lives and some of the most vulnerable places in the world. But that isn’t what ended up being the biggest things that moved things in this country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m sure you’re glad that there was a big reaction to your disclosures, but what did that sort of experience do for you, seeing that sort of disconnect between your intent and the outcome?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> So I don’t want to say that I was cynical going into it, but I did know enough political science that I was aware that if you look at every Congress in the United States going back to 2000, this is not — we can’t blame it on either party and it’s not about right now. It’s like, this is an ongoing trend. It’s been going on for 25 years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Each progressive Congress passes less and less legislation. We are dealing with some really heavy, complicated, structural problems in how we have set up our government. You know, even our own Supreme Court justices, when you ask them, like, would you recommend copying the U.S. Constitution for a new country today? Like, they’re always like, they’re like, no comment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And we’ve seen action in Europe. And that’s where I expected to see action. And we’re seeing action through the court system in the United States. And those are the two things that I thought were most likely when I went into all this back in 2021.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Frances Haugen about the effect of her leaking tens of thousands of pages of internal documents from Facebook that showed the tech giant knew about its platform’s harms and did nothing to address it. A story that’s being dramatized in the film coming out next week called \u003cem>The Social Reckoning\u003c/em>. We’ll have more with Frances Haugen and with you after the break. Stay with us. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>Hi. Well, as someone who’s had to sign serious nondisclosure agreements at the seven Silicon Valley tech startups I’ve worked for, what were the consequences for you? Because no doubt Facebook had you sign one of those as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>Peter, thanks. So I was incredibly fortunate. So until Sarah Wynn-Williams came forward with her book, \u003cem>Careless People\u003c/em>, and Meta came after her with hundreds of millions of dollars in penalties, they had never sued another whistleblower. So I came into the experience pretty sure that I wasn’t going to be destroyed, at least in the courts, by Facebook, just because it’s a very bad look to go after an individual employee, especially when they’ve documented thoroughly that you knew you were doing things wrong and you continue to do them for profit reasons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I would say the biggest consequences for me have been, like, I had a very private life before I came forward as a whistleblower. And, like, one of the things that makes me a little nervous about the movie is, like, I felt like a lot of that period of my life kind of maybe receded a little bit, like it was more, you know, previous chapters than current chapters. And it is a very weird thing to be in the airport or something and have someone recognize you. You know, it is a very different way of moving through the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I wouldn’t say that it’s been — I still get job offers. I didn’t lose any friends. You know, all the worst-case scenarios didn’t come true for me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>And we just have a minute left. Your book is called \u003cem>The Power of One\u003c/em>, but with everything feeling so big and overwhelming, it can be hard not to feel like a single person is too small to affect anything. What are we doing when we sort of allow that sense of fatalism to creep into our lives?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>So part of why I, you know, I called it \u003cem>The Power of One\u003c/em>, and one thing is I do try to help people explore throughout the book, is we — I feel like I was given a real gift when I went to, I went this brand-new college called Olin College of Engineering in Massachusetts, because they build into the curriculum enough space that you can also take humanities. And I took a lot of history classes, and I was a minor in Cold War studies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the story of the 20th century is of amazing things happening because individual people just don’t give up. You know, the British left India, the Soviet Union fell, apartheid ended. We should not feel like the world is impossible. We should just believe that we are in the prelude, you know, that the prologue to being able to get the change that we want.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>I’m Frances Haugen. The book is \u003cem>The Power of One\u003c/em>. Thanks so much for talking with us. And my thanks to our listeners, and also to Jared Sport for producing this segment. You’ve been listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Announcer:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>Funds for the production of \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> are provided by the Jenerosity Family Fund and the members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Facebook whistleblower Frances Haugen leaked tens of thousands of pages of internal documents that were published in a 2021 Wall Street Journal exposé, now the basis of the forthcoming film “The Social Reckoning.” The documents revealed that the tech giant knew its engagement-driven algorithms accelerated political polarization, increased teenage mental health issues and incited ethnic violence abroad, and Haugen argued that Mark Zuckerberg routinely prioritized user growth and corporate profits over public safety. In her memoir “The Power of One: How I Found the Strength to Tell the Truth and Why I Blew the Whistle on Facebook,” Haugen details the personal and professional cost of exposing Meta and going public.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Aaron Sorkin’s follow-up to the 2010 film \u003cem>The Social Network\u003c/em>, about the founding of Facebook, comes out next week, called \u003cem>The Social Reckoning\u003c/em>. This time, it’s about the 2021 revelations that Facebook knew its platform stoked division and harmed kids, especially teen girls, and did not act. Revelations that came to light after Frances Haugen decided to secretly leak thousands of internal documents to \u003cem>Wall Street Journal\u003c/em> reporter Jeff Horwitz. Haugen’s memoir, \u003cem>The Power of One: How I Found the Strength to Tell the Truth and Why I Blew the Whistle on Facebook\u003c/em>, is out in paperback this month, and she joins me now. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, Frances.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Aaron Sorkin’s follow-up to the 2010 film \u003cem>The Social Network\u003c/em>, about the founding of Facebook, comes out next week, called \u003cem>The Social Reckoning\u003c/em>. This time, it’s about the 2021 revelations that Facebook knew its platform stoked division and harmed kids, especially teen girls, and did not act. Revelations that came to light after Frances Haugen decided to secretly leak thousands of internal documents to \u003cem>Wall Street Journal\u003c/em> reporter Jeff Horwitz. Haugen’s memoir, \u003cem>The Power of One: How I Found the Strength to Tell the Truth and Why I Blew the Whistle on Facebook\u003c/em>, is out in paperback this month, and she joins me now. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, Frances.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> Thank you for inviting me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What did you think of the film? I assume you got a preview.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> I did get to see it maybe two weeks ago, and I was really impressed because ever since conversations have begun on, you know, should they make a movie out of this? I’ve always been a little baffled, like, how do you make exciting taking a bunch of pictures? And, you know, Aaron Sorkin worked his magic, and it’s exciting and funny and all the things that you associate with an Aaron Sorkin movie. Um, so it was real surreal, and, um, it’s so odd seeing yourself up on the big screen. I’ll put it that way.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> I did get to see it maybe two weeks ago, and I was really impressed because ever since conversations have begun on, you know, should they make a movie out of this? I’ve always been a little baffled, like, how do you make exciting taking a bunch of pictures? And, you know, Aaron Sorkin worked his magic, and it’s exciting and funny and all the things that you associate with an Aaron Sorkin movie. Um, so it was real surreal, and, um, it’s so odd seeing yourself up on the big screen. I’ll put it that way.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I was going to say it must be surreal. How?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> And, you know, it’s one of these things. So there are parts of my experience where, you know, I don’t ruminate on what happened five years ago. You know, I have a wonderful life that is not related to social media. And there are parts of it that he depicted really well that, once I watched them, I was like, oh, yeah, I did write about that. That did happen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I’ll give you an example. You know, there were things that I had high levels of certainty about when I first started talking to Jeff. And there are things that I didn’t know, but I knew there were known unknowns when I started talking to Jeff. And they did a really good job of capturing that. Like, there was a period of time where we were trying to fit the puzzle pieces together.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think it’s an important thing to remind people that these topics aren’t just complicated for, like, everyday people. They’re complicated for people who know a lot about them. And they did a great job of depicting that quest for understanding.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, they had Mikey Madison play you, the Oscar winner, and then Jeremy Allen White plays Jeff Horwitz. Did she get some of the details right or things that you had actually forgotten?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, like I was saying, like some of those things about the process of, like, you know, how did we create — I’ll say create meaning, right? Like, it’s one thing to have a giant stack of paper, and it’s another thing to be like, you know, why did this happen? What were all the dominoes that, like — because it’s very easy to tell a story about someone who’s evil, right? It’s like, oh, well, they did bad things because they wanted to hurt other people. You know, that almost never is the real story.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And, you know, the movie does a really good job of depicting that there were different dependencies. There were things that the company was trying to navigate around. And they made choices that were short-sighted, that had really serious consequences. They were warned about them, but they were complicated. Like, it was — there were different balls in motion. And unfortunately, because there wasn’t the right either external oversight or internal guidance or leadership, bad choices were made.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And, you know, the movie does a really good job of depicting that there were different dependencies. There were things that the company was trying to navigate around. And they made choices that were short-sighted, that had really serious consequences. They were warned about them, but they were complicated. Like, it was — there were different balls in motion. And unfortunately, because there wasn’t the right either external oversight or internal guidance or leadership, bad choices were made.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I was also just wondering about the small details of you and your personality, whether those —\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> So, it’s funny. Like, the thing that struck me the most was, um, so I have a vasospastic problem. So that means, uh, when I get colder than about 83 degrees Fahrenheit, um, I start to lose sensation in my hands and feet. So, like, right now, sitting in New York on kind of a drizzly day, I have, like, little heaters in my shoes because it allows me to, like, be comfortable enough. I can talk to you, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> So, it’s funny. Like, the thing that struck me the most was, um, so I have a vasospastic problem. So that means, uh, when I get colder than about 83 degrees Fahrenheit, um, I start to lose sensation in my hands and feet. So, like, right now, sitting in New York on kind of a drizzly day, I have, like, little heaters in my shoes because it allows me to, like, be comfortable enough. I can talk to you, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Um, I live in Puerto Rico today, and, um, it was wild watching her wear wrist warmers throughout the entire movie, which sounds like such a tiny detail. But I walked away from it being like, oh my God, like, I’ve done a lot of mental energy not thinking about this because being forced to watch her do this for two hours, I was like, wow, this is really disruptive. Like, this has actually been, like, a large — this is actually, you know, it’s like one of these things where you hear your voice recorded for the first time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Um, I live in Puerto Rico today, and, um, it was wild watching her wear wrist warmers throughout the entire movie, which sounds like such a tiny detail. But I walked away from it being like, oh my God, like, I’ve done a lot of mental energy not thinking about this because being forced to watch her do this for two hours, I was like, wow, this is really disruptive. Like, this has actually been, like, a large — this is actually, you know, it’s like one of these things where you hear your voice recorded for the first time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Like, there were wrist warmers that she wore where I was like, I have knit wrist warmers that look exactly like those. You know, like, it’s so — I never told them about any of that. That’s all stuff that they summoned from the creative void.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Like, there were wrist warmers that she wore where I was like, I have knit wrist warmers that look exactly like those. You know, like, it’s so — I never told them about any of that. That’s all stuff that they summoned from the creative void.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow. And probably, well, you know, you do talk about your health issues and, interestingly, how dealing with them was sort of the hardest thing you’ve ever done, even harder than blowing the whistle on Facebook, though in a way the two are connected. But how so?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you know, originally when I set out to write a memoir, one of the things I was hoping to kind of, um, you know — there’s this interesting question that comes up in interviews over and over again. It’s like, you know, how are you able to do this? You know, like, it knew there were lots of people who had a chance to do this. You actually did it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you know, originally when I set out to write a memoir, one of the things I was hoping to kind of, um, you know — there’s this interesting question that comes up in interviews over and over again. It’s like, you know, how are you able to do this? You know, like, it knew there were lots of people who had a chance to do this. You actually did it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think if people, if you talk to an average person about, like, why do they not follow their heart? And this could be about something way smaller than taking down a big company like Facebook. They’ll say things to you about they’re worried they’ll lose their job, they’ll lose their home, they’ll lose their partner. They’ll — they start to catastrophize, like, all these things that are kind of the pillars that we think are ourselves.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think if people, if you talk to an average person about, like, why do they not follow their heart? And this could be about something way smaller than taking down a big company like Facebook. They’ll say things to you about they’re worried they’ll lose their job, they’ll lose their home, they’ll lose their partner. They’ll — they start to catastrophize, like, all these things that are kind of the pillars that we think are ourselves.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And over a period of time of, like, two years, like a pretty short period of time, like, I lost all those things because, like, you know, I started to get sick initially, and we didn’t know why. And my then boss thought I was faking the need for a wheelchair. So I went from needing to — I could ride 200 kilometers, so 125 miles, in a day on a bike — to being in a wheelchair in two and a half years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And over a period of time of, like, two years, like a pretty short period of time, like, I lost all those things because, like, you know, I started to get sick initially, and we didn’t know why. And my then boss thought I was faking the need for a wheelchair. So I went from needing to — I could ride 200 kilometers, so 125 miles, in a day on a bike — to being in a wheelchair in two and a half years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And, you know, you lose your job, you just — domino, domino, domino. And the process of having to put my life back together, you know, I don’t wish what happened to me on anyone else, but one of the things that it gave me was the realization that we think these things are who we are. You know, if we lost these things, how could we ever come back?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And, you know, you lose your job, you just — domino, domino, domino. And the process of having to put my life back together, you know, I don’t wish what happened to me on anyone else, but one of the things that it gave me was the realization that we think these things are who we are. You know, if we lost these things, how could we ever come back?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But the reality is that we have so much more strength inside of ourselves than we give ourselves credit for until we have to use it. And so when I ended up in a situation where there were potentially consequences, you know, like, I weighed the odds. I thought it was, like, a reasonable risk.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But the reality is that we have so much more strength inside of ourselves than we give ourselves credit for until we have to use it. And so when I ended up in a situation where there were potentially consequences, you know, like, I weighed the odds. I thought it was, like, a reasonable risk.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But, you know, I knew that I had already come back from having so little. And so it didn’t feel like a binary choice. It wasn’t like I was going to give up everything to do what I thought was right.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But, you know, I knew that I had already come back from having so little. And so it didn’t feel like a binary choice. It wasn’t like I was going to give up everything to do what I thought was right.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You had already sort of experienced it and survived. Let me invite listeners into the conversation. What do you want to ask Frances Haugen or tell Frances, the Facebook whistleblower? Do you remember when those disclosures surfaced, the Facebook Files? And what effect did it have on you, listeners — your use of Facebook or Meta products, or how you thought about the company or tech companies more broadly, social media companies?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You had already sort of experienced it and survived. Let me invite listeners into the conversation. What do you want to ask Frances Haugen or tell Frances, the Facebook whistleblower? Do you remember when those disclosures surfaced, the Facebook Files? And what effect did it have on you, listeners — your use of Facebook or Meta products, or how you thought about the company or tech companies more broadly, social media companies?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You can email \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> at kqed.org, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram at KQED Forum, and you can call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You can email \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> at kqed.org, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram at KQED Forum, and you can call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Right, if you were gonna whistle-blow on a major company, you could have a lot of terrible things happen to you, including losing your job or losing people close to you — colleagues, friends, family and so on. But you had already sort of experienced that because, as you say, you know, your health deteriorated and ultimately you were pushed out of Google, right? That’s where you were when a lot of this was starting.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Right, if you were gonna whistle-blow on a major company, you could have a lot of terrible things happen to you, including losing your job or losing people close to you — colleagues, friends, family and so on. But you had already sort of experienced that because, as you say, you know, your health deteriorated and ultimately you were pushed out of Google, right? That’s where you were when a lot of this was starting.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> So when — so I got hired straight out of college to Google, and it was the, you know, they paid for grad school. So I was, I think, I’m pretty sure I was the first MBA they ever paid for an MBA. I was there for seven, seven and a half years, something like that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> So when — so I got hired straight out of college to Google, and it was the, you know, they paid for grad school. So I was, I think, I’m pretty sure I was the first MBA they ever paid for an MBA. I was there for seven, seven and a half years, something like that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it was really heartbreaking in the moment. But I look at it and, you know, I ended up kind of getting to follow one of my great passions, which is I love social software. It’s like in the movie, they talk about, like, “I’m not here to hurt Facebook.” The only way Facebook can actually heal itself or have a long-term future is if they deal with their problems, right? And the way the system was set up and the system of incentives, they were never going to be able to make the choices they needed to make internally without having some external pressure.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And it was really heartbreaking in the moment. But I look at it and, you know, I ended up kind of getting to follow one of my great passions, which is I love social software. It’s like in the movie, they talk about, like, “I’m not here to hurt Facebook.” The only way Facebook can actually heal itself or have a long-term future is if they deal with their problems, right? And the way the system was set up and the system of incentives, they were never going to be able to make the choices they needed to make internally without having some external pressure.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, I never would have gone to work at Pinterest if I hadn’t left Google. I would have never ended up working at Yelp. I would’ve never ended up at Facebook. And even today, like, I still love social software. Like, I love connecting people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, I never would have gone to work at Pinterest if I hadn’t left Google. I would have never ended up working at Yelp. I would’ve never ended up at Facebook. And even today, like, I still love social software. Like, I love connecting people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so sometimes the things that, you know, I would never have left Google if I hadn’t been given a little, you know, little shove. Because I loved — I loved to search. Like, I loved getting to see inside of people’s thoughts. You know, it was beautiful.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so sometimes the things that, you know, I would never have left Google if I hadn’t been given a little, you know, little shove. Because I loved — I loved to search. Like, I loved getting to see inside of people’s thoughts. You know, it was beautiful.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You were reluctant, though, to take a job at Facebook when they recruited you in 2019. Talk about why.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You were reluctant, though, to take a job at Facebook when they recruited you in 2019. Talk about why.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> It was funny. When I went to go write my memoir, I went back and was looking through old emails and old chat logs and all these things, and I was definitely less polite than I usually am with people when the Facebook recruiter reached out.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> It was funny. When I went to go write my memoir, I went back and was looking through old emails and old chat logs and all these things, and I was definitely less polite than I usually am with people when the Facebook recruiter reached out.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Because for context, for listeners, Facebook has struggled to hire people mid-career and more senior for a long time. So even though they pay substantially more than other similar employers like Google or Amazon or Apple, that kind of thing, if you have more than maybe five years of work experience, there’s not a huge amount of demand for people to work there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Because for context, for listeners, Facebook has struggled to hire people mid-career and more senior for a long time. So even though they pay substantially more than other similar employers like Google or Amazon or Apple, that kind of thing, if you have more than maybe five years of work experience, there’s not a huge amount of demand for people to work there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And part of that is that, you know, going back, I think at least as far as maybe the early 2010s, so it’s been over 10 years that this has been going on. There was kind of a perception that Facebook, you know, their motto, their old motto of “move fast and break things” — you know, if you’re a person who is more conscientious or you want to work on a single thing for a couple of years, sounds like a really basic ask. Inside of Facebook, it’s so dynamic that they, for example, they thought they bet the whole company on the metaverse five years ago and now they’re doing AI, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And part of that is that, you know, going back, I think at least as far as maybe the early 2010s, so it’s been over 10 years that this has been going on. There was kind of a perception that Facebook, you know, their motto, their old motto of “move fast and break things” — you know, if you’re a person who is more conscientious or you want to work on a single thing for a couple of years, sounds like a really basic ask. Inside of Facebook, it’s so dynamic that they, for example, they thought they bet the whole company on the metaverse five years ago and now they’re doing AI, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Like, it’s a more chaotic place that might have other motivating principles than maybe making technology that… There’s a lot of utopian thinkers in Silicon Valley, and I think Facebook attracts fewer of them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Like, it’s a more chaotic place that might have other motivating principles than maybe making technology that… There’s a lot of utopian thinkers in Silicon Valley, and I think Facebook attracts fewer of them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And it certainly didn’t help with, you know, the after-effects of the 2016 presidential election or Cambridge Analytica, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And it certainly didn’t help with, you know, the after-effects of the 2016 presidential election or Cambridge Analytica, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> But so when they reached out, they were like, oh, do you want to work at Facebook? And I was like, the only thing I would want to work on is misinformation, because I had watched the consequences of it. But that’s another chapter.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> But so when they reached out, they were like, oh, do you want to work at Facebook? And I was like, the only thing I would want to work on is misinformation, because I had watched the consequences of it. But that’s another chapter.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and let’s get into that chapter right after the break. We’re talking with Frances Haugen, who leaked tens of thousands of pages of internal documents that were published in a 2021 \u003cem>Wall Street Journal\u003c/em> exposé called the Facebook Files and helped people realize that the tech giant knew its platforms harmed kids, was riddled with misinformation and did nothing to address it. Haugen’s story is the inspiration for the forthcoming film \u003cem>The Social Reckoning\u003c/em>, and we’ll talk more with her and with you after the break.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and let’s get into that chapter right after the break. We’re talking with Frances Haugen, who leaked tens of thousands of pages of internal documents that were published in a 2021 \u003cem>Wall Street Journal\u003c/em> exposé called the Facebook Files and helped people realize that the tech giant knew its platforms harmed kids, was riddled with misinformation and did nothing to address it. Haugen’s story is the inspiration for the forthcoming film \u003cem>The Social Reckoning\u003c/em>, and we’ll talk more with her and with you after the break.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Listeners, do you remember the Facebook Files, the 2021 \u003cem>Wall Street Journal\u003c/em> exposé that showed that Facebook knew its platform stoked division, harmed kids, was riddled with misinformation and did nothing to address it? Facebook whistleblower Frances Haugen was the reason that we learned about that, and her story is part of the forthcoming film \u003cem>The Social Reckoning\u003c/em>, that’s out next week. It’s a follow-up to 2010’s \u003cem>The Social Network\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Listeners, do you remember the Facebook Files, the 2021 \u003cem>Wall Street Journal\u003c/em> exposé that showed that Facebook knew its platform stoked division, harmed kids, was riddled with misinformation and did nothing to address it? Facebook whistleblower Frances Haugen was the reason that we learned about that, and her story is part of the forthcoming film \u003cem>The Social Reckoning\u003c/em>, that’s out next week. It’s a follow-up to 2010’s \u003cem>The Social Network\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And listeners, during the conversation, what do you remember about the Facebook Files? What effect did it have on you? Your use of Facebook or Meta products at the time? How you thought about the company? Did it give you insights or thoughts about the broader incentives of the tech industry?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And listeners, during the conversation, what do you remember about the Facebook Files? What effect did it have on you? Your use of Facebook or Meta products at the time? How you thought about the company? Did it give you insights or thoughts about the broader incentives of the tech industry?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What do you want to ask or tell Facebook whistleblower Frances Haugen, whose memoir, \u003cem>The Power of One\u003c/em>, is out in paperback this month? The email address is forum@kqed.org. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What do you want to ask or tell Facebook whistleblower Frances Haugen, whose memoir, \u003cem>The Power of One\u003c/em>, is out in paperback this month? The email address is forum@kqed.org. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As you know, Frances, before the break, you know, you were excited about social software, and the film clips suggest that you also, you know, appreciated what Facebook was trying to do with regards to connecting people. But the company had changed or was changing, right, with regard to how it was going to keep people on the platform.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>As you know, Frances, before the break, you know, you were excited about social software, and the film clips suggest that you also, you know, appreciated what Facebook was trying to do with regards to connecting people. But the company had changed or was changing, right, with regard to how it was going to keep people on the platform.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> So a big part of my revelations back in 2021 was trying to make the public aware that Facebook’s own researchers, over the course of a couple of years, talking to political parties across Europe on the left, on the right, talking to people in the United States, had found that changes they had made to the algorithm, the little computer program that chooses what content you get to see when you open up Facebook.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> So a big part of my revelations back in 2021 was trying to make the public aware that Facebook’s own researchers, over the course of a couple of years, talking to political parties across Europe on the left, on the right, talking to people in the United States, had found that changes they had made to the algorithm, the little computer program that chooses what content you get to see when you open up Facebook.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They made choices to that algorithm to try to encourage people to produce more content. And unfortunately, one of the side effects of those business choices was that it also gave the most distribution to the most emotionally intense content. And that had the unfortunate impact of political parties saying things like, we used to be able to run, say, a white paper on our agricultural policy, which we get is not super sexy. It’s not thrilling. But that’s, like, what democracy is actually about.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>They made choices to that algorithm to try to encourage people to produce more content. And unfortunately, one of the side effects of those business choices was that it also gave the most distribution to the most emotionally intense content. And that had the unfortunate impact of political parties saying things like, we used to be able to run, say, a white paper on our agricultural policy, which we get is not super sexy. It’s not thrilling. But that’s, like, what democracy is actually about.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, there’s all these things that are not super exciting, but people read them. We could see from the stats people engaged. Now, if we don’t do really inflammatory, you know, accusations, things that make people angry, they don’t get the same distribution. And unfortunately, when you put that at scale, it changes the conversations that we get to have.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, there’s all these things that are not super exciting, but people read them. We could see from the stats people engaged. Now, if we don’t do really inflammatory, you know, accusations, things that make people angry, they don’t get the same distribution. And unfortunately, when you put that at scale, it changes the conversations that we get to have.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, nothing short of, as you write in your memoir, defining the issues we voted on. I have to say, reading it was such a reminder of how powerful those changes could be. And, of course, you know, the mental and physical health of kids, especially teen girls, the effects of that was also very well documented. So, yeah, did you want to say something?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, nothing short of, as you write in your memoir, defining the issues we voted on. I have to say, reading it was such a reminder of how powerful those changes could be. And, of course, you know, the mental and physical health of kids, especially teen girls, the effects of that was also very well documented. So, yeah, did you want to say something?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> I was gonna say, one of the things that I was really amazed by with the movie is, you know, my memoir is a book. You know, there’s a lot of conversation on a lot of different issues around Facebook. The issue that, you know, they could have chosen many different things to focus on is like the — we’ll call it the simplified version of what information I brought out.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> I was gonna say, one of the things that I was really amazed by with the movie is, you know, my memoir is a book. You know, there’s a lot of conversation on a lot of different issues around Facebook. The issue that, you know, they could have chosen many different things to focus on is like the — we’ll call it the simplified version of what information I brought out.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But the factoid they chose to make the kind of the smoking gun was about Facebook ran research on how do people find extremist groups and join them on Facebook, at least circa 2021, 2020? And what they found was two-thirds of the people who joined groups that were actively violating Facebook’s rules on violence, calling for violence, calling active hate speech, active threats against, say, minorities, the government, was because Facebook recommended that group to them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But the factoid they chose to make the kind of the smoking gun was about Facebook ran research on how do people find extremist groups and join them on Facebook, at least circa 2021, 2020? And what they found was two-thirds of the people who joined groups that were actively violating Facebook’s rules on violence, calling for violence, calling active hate speech, active threats against, say, minorities, the government, was because Facebook recommended that group to them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And… When you say something like that, it sounds implausible. It’s like, wait, you already said this is against your rules. Like, why are you recommending a group that’s against your rules?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And… When you say something like that, it sounds implausible. It’s like, wait, you already said this is against your rules. Like, why are you recommending a group that’s against your rules?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But when you have these systems, there have to be motivations to keep them safe. And the question is, how safe is safe enough? And we currently live in an environment where there is no check and balance on the company other than the company being like, how safe should we be?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And that’s the world that I was living in when I brought forward the information in 2021.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you also connect Facebook to January 6th, and of course you talk about how you feel like the groups, you know, would not have grown as fast as they had, would not have been able to spread the lies of —\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, to be real clear, that’s not my opinion. It’s the research that I brought out from Facebook. They had data scientists that went in there and, after the fact, were like, wait, like, how did Stop the Steal get so big so fast?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, to be real clear, that’s not my opinion. It’s the research that I brought out from Facebook. They had data scientists that went in there and, after the fact, were like, wait, like, how did Stop the Steal get so big so fast?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I feel particularly empathetic to the people who got arrested on January 6th and said, when I looked at my Facebook feed, it looked real. Like, everything I saw said, this is happening, this is happening, this was happening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I feel particularly empathetic to the people who got arrested on January 6th and said, when I looked at my Facebook feed, it looked real. Like, everything I saw said, this is happening, this is happening, this was happening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And when the researchers inside of Facebook went back and said, how did this happen? Facebook had in place rules that allowed a single person to invite 300,000 people to Stop the Steal groups. Or a small group of people founded tens of different Stop the Steal groups, even though that kind of behavior of doing kind of shadow organizations and pretending you’re all independent isn’t an allowed behavior on Facebook.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And when the researchers inside of Facebook went back and said, how did this happen? Facebook had in place rules that allowed a single person to invite 300,000 people to Stop the Steal groups. Or a small group of people founded tens of different Stop the Steal groups, even though that kind of behavior of doing kind of shadow organizations and pretending you’re all independent isn’t an allowed behavior on Facebook.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And part of the reason why all these safety measures that were on for the election were off was that Facebook fired the team whose job was to run those systems. So no one was in charge. No one was responsible for saying, oh, the temperature is starting to overheat. Like, maybe we shouldn’t run the platform at 11 or 12. Maybe we should just run it at, like, seven or eight.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And part of the reason why all these safety measures that were on for the election were off was that Facebook fired the team whose job was to run those systems. So no one was in charge. No one was responsible for saying, oh, the temperature is starting to overheat. Like, maybe we shouldn’t run the platform at 11 or 12. Maybe we should just run it at, like, seven or eight.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> How much did the film make quite a bit about how you really wanted to get to the bottom of how a friend of yours was radicalized? How much of that was, in fact, something that really prompted you to start to question Facebook?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> So part of why I was willing to take the job in the first place, because when I was offered the job back in spring of 2019, you know, I went and asked a variety of friends for feedback on, like, should I take this job? Like, I feel very conflicted.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> So part of why I was willing to take the job in the first place, because when I was offered the job back in spring of 2019, you know, I went and asked a variety of friends for feedback on, like, should I take this job? Like, I feel very conflicted.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Like, on one side I see there’s a lot of opportunity for someone with my specific skill set. So someone who’s worked really intimately with the kinds of software that picks out what people see in their home feed, right? Like, I’d already done that job at Pinterest. I’d worked on, at that point, it would have been my fourth social network.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Like, on one side I see there’s a lot of opportunity for someone with my specific skill set. So someone who’s worked really intimately with the kinds of software that picks out what people see in their home feed, right? Like, I’d already done that job at Pinterest. I’d worked on, at that point, it would have been my fourth social network.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I could see that there was an opportunity to have impact, but I also was like, do I really wanna deal with something this messy?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the thing that pushed me to engage with it was that back in 2016, I had watched a friend who had been, like, very passionately for Bernie Sanders. After he lost the primary, he became very disillusioned. And, like, when he went on social media, like, he progressively got shown more and more extreme content that was not really related to our, like, consensus reality.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the thing that pushed me to engage with it was that back in 2016, I had watched a friend who had been, like, very passionately for Bernie Sanders. After he lost the primary, he became very disillusioned. And, like, when he went on social media, like, he progressively got shown more and more extreme content that was not really related to our, like, consensus reality.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And watching him, like, passionately defend to me that, like, George Soros ran the world economy was like a terrifying experience for me because, like, if a smart, like, well-educated, like, someone who loved to consume information about the world, if being online could push them to be like, oh, we can’t even talk about newspapers because newspapers are all lies, you know, how do you come back from that level of disconnection or, like, estrangement?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And watching him, like, passionately defend to me that, like, George Soros ran the world economy was like a terrifying experience for me because, like, if a smart, like, well-educated, like, someone who loved to consume information about the world, if being online could push them to be like, oh, we can’t even talk about newspapers because newspapers are all lies, you know, how do you come back from that level of disconnection or, like, estrangement?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And, you know, if it can happen to him, it can happen to anyone. And so that’s why I originally took the job.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Jay in San Francisco writes, how did Frances get direct access to all those documents? If Facebook had incriminating documents, I’m surprised that they’d be available for any employee to see. Can you answer Jay’s question and also just the painstaking role you had to play getting those documents to Jeff Horwitz at the \u003cem>Wall Street Journal\u003c/em>?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Jay in San Francisco writes, how did Frances get direct access to all those documents? If Facebook had incriminating documents, I’m surprised that they’d be available for any employee to see. Can you answer Jay’s question and also just the painstaking role you had to play getting those documents to Jeff Horwitz at the \u003cem>Wall Street Journal\u003c/em>?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> So, one of the downsides of being someone who works a lot with data is that it can make you, like, a little — a little paranoid, because you can imagine all the ways, if you were trying to catch yourself, like, how would you catch yourself?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> So, one of the downsides of being someone who works a lot with data is that it can make you, like, a little — a little paranoid, because you can imagine all the ways, if you were trying to catch yourself, like, how would you catch yourself?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so I followed, like, fairly tight cybersecurity. So I had a separate laptop that never had been connected to the internet. I had a phone that I don’t think even had a SIM card in it. Like, that is a small deviation on the movie. They have a flip phone in the movie, and I had, like, basically a phone with a touchscreen, but not an iPhone, just like a generic Android.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so I followed, like, fairly tight cybersecurity. So I had a separate laptop that never had been connected to the internet. I had a phone that I don’t think even had a SIM card in it. Like, that is a small deviation on the movie. They have a flip phone in the movie, and I had, like, basically a phone with a touchscreen, but not an iPhone, just like a generic Android.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I had to go through and take pictures of each individual page, like one page at a time on my screen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It was interesting, he makes a great point. So, like, how did I have access to what I had access to? So for some things, I really got the accidental things that slipped through their net. So when it comes to, like, kids, for example, only about 10% of the pages I brought out were about kids.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It was interesting, he makes a great point. So, like, how did I have access to what I had access to? So for some things, I really got the accidental things that slipped through their net. So when it comes to, like, kids, for example, only about 10% of the pages I brought out were about kids.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And when the court — the people who, the lawyers representing children who had been hurt, families that had been hurt, the attorneys general — were able to subpoena for pages, you know, I brought out maybe a couple thousand pages, they were able to get millions of pages about kids. So the stuff that we found out about kids was really the stuff that, like, by using the — you know, I’d worked on multiple search engines by the time I was at Facebook. You know, using all the kind of little tricks around, you know, could we search for this? Could we search this? Like, they just didn’t lock it down quite hard enough.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And when the court — the people who, the lawyers representing children who had been hurt, families that had been hurt, the attorneys general — were able to subpoena for pages, you know, I brought out maybe a couple thousand pages, they were able to get millions of pages about kids. So the stuff that we found out about kids was really the stuff that, like, by using the — you know, I’d worked on multiple search engines by the time I was at Facebook. You know, using all the kind of little tricks around, you know, could we search for this? Could we search this? Like, they just didn’t lock it down quite hard enough.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But for all the stuff around political polarization, about how Facebook was influencing what ideas were allowed to be spread on the platform, I was exposed to a lot of that because I had worked on the teams that were looking at the algorithms, that were trying to understand why were we seeing things like ethnic violence in Myanmar, or later I worked on the working group that worked on the violence in Ethiopia. So it just happened to be that I had direct access because I worked on those issues.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But for all the stuff around political polarization, about how Facebook was influencing what ideas were allowed to be spread on the platform, I was exposed to a lot of that because I had worked on the teams that were looking at the algorithms, that were trying to understand why were we seeing things like ethnic violence in Myanmar, or later I worked on the working group that worked on the violence in Ethiopia. So it just happened to be that I had direct access because I worked on those issues.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Hmm. Listener Stopna writes, those of us who are in the mental health field know that the damage from social media is long-term and pervasive. I was aware that many tech companies, especially gaming companies, were hiring psychiatrists to make their products more addictive.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Hmm. Listener Stopna writes, those of us who are in the mental health field know that the damage from social media is long-term and pervasive. I was aware that many tech companies, especially gaming companies, were hiring psychiatrists to make their products more addictive.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think in search of that big idea and wanting to break things, ethics will likely take a back seat in this industry, absent accountability. You know, you’ve talked about, of course, the profit motive at Facebook and the pressures from shareholders and so on and so forth. But you also note that there was sort of a paranoia on the part of Zuckerberg of a Facebook killer that would come to displace the company.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think in search of that big idea and wanting to break things, ethics will likely take a back seat in this industry, absent accountability. You know, you’ve talked about, of course, the profit motive at Facebook and the pressures from shareholders and so on and so forth. But you also note that there was sort of a paranoia on the part of Zuckerberg of a Facebook killer that would come to displace the company.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> So we forget that the tech environment we live in today, it’s not eternal, right? Even Facebook, who’s at this point been around for more than 20 years, at some point it killed MySpace, which was, like, even bigger than Facebook back in 2004, 2005. Before that there was Friendster, which was very, very similar to Facebook.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> So we forget that the tech environment we live in today, it’s not eternal, right? Even Facebook, who’s at this point been around for more than 20 years, at some point it killed MySpace, which was, like, even bigger than Facebook back in 2004, 2005. Before that there was Friendster, which was very, very similar to Facebook.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And Facebook could see elsewhere in the world that products would surge. So, for example, when Instagram was bought, Instagram only had, you know, they had less than 15 employees, and yet it sold for a billion dollars. And the reason why it was worth that much money with so few employees was Facebook had an app that it was paying people to run on their phones to report back on what apps they were using. And they could see that this little tiny photo-sharing app had exploded over the —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And Facebook could see elsewhere in the world that products would surge. So, for example, when Instagram was bought, Instagram only had, you know, they had less than 15 employees, and yet it sold for a billion dollars. And the reason why it was worth that much money with so few employees was Facebook had an app that it was paying people to run on their phones to report back on what apps they were using. And they could see that this little tiny photo-sharing app had exploded over the —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so social media is only as strong as the most recent wave of success it’s had. And so Mark’s always looking for what he can buy next, but he hasn’t been allowed to buy a big acquisition in a number of years now because of antitrust reasons.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so social media is only as strong as the most recent wave of success it’s had. And so Mark’s always looking for what he can buy next, but he hasn’t been allowed to buy a big acquisition in a number of years now because of antitrust reasons.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Did that paranoia drive his decision to also essentially offer or make his platform available in some of the most impoverished countries?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Did that paranoia drive his decision to also essentially offer or make his platform available in some of the most impoverished countries?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> One of the biggest motivators for me when I became a whistleblower was going into the company. I was very focused on our experience here in the United States. My friend is in the States, I’m in the United States. I’m watching, say, the 2016 election play out.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> One of the biggest motivators for me when I became a whistleblower was going into the company. I was very focused on our experience here in the United States. My friend is in the States, I’m in the United States. I’m watching, say, the 2016 election play out.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Just to remind people, because we forget what the internet was like in 2016. There were viral stories that were seen by tens of millions of people, 100 million people in the United States, like “Trump endorses — excuse me, Pope endorses Donald Trump.” Right? Like, things that today we’d be like, we don’t generally see that level of absurdity go that viral, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Just to remind people, because we forget what the internet was like in 2016. There were viral stories that were seen by tens of millions of people, 100 million people in the United States, like “Trump endorses — excuse me, Pope endorses Donald Trump.” Right? Like, things that today we’d be like, we don’t generally see that level of absurdity go that viral, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But when I joined the company, I learned a lot about how Facebook was being used outside the United States. So as an English speaker, speaking to other likely English speakers, we take for granted that we have a really rich and vibrant open internet that we can interact with. You know, if you don’t like a company, you don’t like a news source, there are alternatives.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Facebook went into some of the most fragile places in the world when no one was online. So we’re talking mid-2010s, early 2010s, and said, hey, we want you to be able to access the wonder of the internet, specifically Facebook. If you use our products, your dot is free. If you want to use anything else, you’re going to pay for it yourself.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Facebook went into some of the most fragile places in the world when no one was online. So we’re talking mid-2010s, early 2010s, and said, hey, we want you to be able to access the wonder of the internet, specifically Facebook. If you use our products, your dot is free. If you want to use anything else, you’re going to pay for it yourself.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so in a lot of countries around the world, you know, you might not have a business webpage, you just have a Facebook page. Or even a newspaper might not do its own page, it might have a group and push out content through that Facebook group.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so in a lot of countries around the world, you know, you might not have a business webpage, you just have a Facebook page. Or even a newspaper might not do its own page, it might have a group and push out content through that Facebook group.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the difference between having an open internet where you get options and choices and competition and having a closed internet like that is that if the company, Facebook, doesn’t choose to invest in your safety, there aren’t other opportunities to get those safety needs met.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the difference between having an open internet where you get options and choices and competition and having a closed internet like that is that if the company, Facebook, doesn’t choose to invest in your safety, there aren’t other opportunities to get those safety needs met.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And what we found, I found in just the first couple months working at Facebook, was that while Facebook said we really care about everyone in the world, even though only about 11% of users spoke English, over half the safety budget was focused on English. You know, if you weren’t in Western Europe, if you were in the United States, you got very, very little safety investment comparatively.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And so even though it was providing this incentive for a closed network, it wasn’t doing anything to ensure or police that network, essentially. And you also connect that and others to violence or division and issues in these smaller countries.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And so even though it was providing this incentive for a closed network, it wasn’t doing anything to ensure or police that network, essentially. And you also connect that and others to violence or division and issues in these smaller countries.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> Well, that was kind of one of the wild things in the last six months I was at Facebook was in Ethiopia, a very large ethnic conflict emerged that was fueled by an information operation not even run inside the country.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> Well, that was kind of one of the wild things in the last six months I was at Facebook was in Ethiopia, a very large ethnic conflict emerged that was fueled by an information operation not even run inside the country.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So in the case of Myanmar, the Burmese government built out a whole bunch of digital assets so that they could run an information operation against the Rohingya, their Muslim minority, to say, hey, you need to go after these people. These people are dangerous.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In the case of Ethiopia, you had expats. So these are people who have left the country because there was an authoritarian government. You know, they’d been displaced. And they ran an information operation on their own back against the people inside their country, stoking division.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In the case of Ethiopia, you had expats. So these are people who have left the country because there was an authoritarian government. You know, they’d been displaced. And they ran an information operation on their own back against the people inside their country, stoking division.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And one of the things that we need to remember, and I watched very, very front row in my last about year in the company, is that the nation-state actors know how cheap it is to run information operations. They know how little was invested in preventing them from freely operating.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And one of the things that we need to remember, and I watched very, very front row in my last about year in the company, is that the nation-state actors know how cheap it is to run information operations. They know how little was invested in preventing them from freely operating.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And in an open democracy like the United States, you know, we are very vulnerable to having our discourse influenced by people going in there and pushing ideas into groups or silencing people who might ask questions because it’s way more effective to make us fight each other than have someone outside fight us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And in an open democracy like the United States, you know, we are very vulnerable to having our discourse influenced by people going in there and pushing ideas into groups or silencing people who might ask questions because it’s way more effective to make us fight each other than have someone outside fight us.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it’s interesting, too, how you talk about, you know, the effect of your leaks. Like, your motivation was to come forward because you were concerned about tens of millions of lives and some of the most vulnerable places in the world. But that isn’t what ended up being the biggest things that moved things in this country.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it’s interesting, too, how you talk about, you know, the effect of your leaks. Like, your motivation was to come forward because you were concerned about tens of millions of lives and some of the most vulnerable places in the world. But that isn’t what ended up being the biggest things that moved things in this country.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m sure you’re glad that there was a big reaction to your disclosures, but what did that sort of experience do for you, seeing that sort of disconnect between your intent and the outcome?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> So I don’t want to say that I was cynical going into it, but I did know enough political science that I was aware that if you look at every Congress in the United States going back to 2000, this is not — we can’t blame it on either party and it’s not about right now. It’s like, this is an ongoing trend. It’s been going on for 25 years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> So I don’t want to say that I was cynical going into it, but I did know enough political science that I was aware that if you look at every Congress in the United States going back to 2000, this is not — we can’t blame it on either party and it’s not about right now. It’s like, this is an ongoing trend. It’s been going on for 25 years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Each progressive Congress passes less and less legislation. We are dealing with some really heavy, complicated, structural problems in how we have set up our government. You know, even our own Supreme Court justices, when you ask them, like, would you recommend copying the U.S. Constitution for a new country today? Like, they’re always like, they’re like, no comment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Each progressive Congress passes less and less legislation. We are dealing with some really heavy, complicated, structural problems in how we have set up our government. You know, even our own Supreme Court justices, when you ask them, like, would you recommend copying the U.S. Constitution for a new country today? Like, they’re always like, they’re like, no comment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And we’ve seen action in Europe. And that’s where I expected to see action. And we’re seeing action through the court system in the United States. And those are the two things that I thought were most likely when I went into all this back in 2021.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And we’ve seen action in Europe. And that’s where I expected to see action. And we’re seeing action through the court system in the United States. And those are the two things that I thought were most likely when I went into all this back in 2021.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Frances Haugen about the effect of her leaking tens of thousands of pages of internal documents from Facebook that showed the tech giant knew about its platform’s harms and did nothing to address it. A story that’s being dramatized in the film coming out next week called \u003cem>The Social Reckoning\u003c/em>. We’ll have more with Frances Haugen and with you after the break. Stay with us. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Frances Haugen about the effect of her leaking tens of thousands of pages of internal documents from Facebook that showed the tech giant knew about its platform’s harms and did nothing to address it. A story that’s being dramatized in the film coming out next week called \u003cem>The Social Reckoning\u003c/em>. We’ll have more with Frances Haugen and with you after the break. Stay with us. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>Hi. Well, as someone who’s had to sign serious nondisclosure agreements at the seven Silicon Valley tech startups I’ve worked for, what were the consequences for you? Because no doubt Facebook had you sign one of those as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>Peter, thanks. So I was incredibly fortunate. So until Sarah Wynn-Williams came forward with her book, \u003cem>Careless People\u003c/em>, and Meta came after her with hundreds of millions of dollars in penalties, they had never sued another whistleblower. So I came into the experience pretty sure that I wasn’t going to be destroyed, at least in the courts, by Facebook, just because it’s a very bad look to go after an individual employee, especially when they’ve documented thoroughly that you knew you were doing things wrong and you continue to do them for profit reasons.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>Peter, thanks. So I was incredibly fortunate. So until Sarah Wynn-Williams came forward with her book, \u003cem>Careless People\u003c/em>, and Meta came after her with hundreds of millions of dollars in penalties, they had never sued another whistleblower. So I came into the experience pretty sure that I wasn’t going to be destroyed, at least in the courts, by Facebook, just because it’s a very bad look to go after an individual employee, especially when they’ve documented thoroughly that you knew you were doing things wrong and you continue to do them for profit reasons.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I would say the biggest consequences for me have been, like, I had a very private life before I came forward as a whistleblower. And, like, one of the things that makes me a little nervous about the movie is, like, I felt like a lot of that period of my life kind of maybe receded a little bit, like it was more, you know, previous chapters than current chapters. And it is a very weird thing to be in the airport or something and have someone recognize you. You know, it is a very different way of moving through the world.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I would say the biggest consequences for me have been, like, I had a very private life before I came forward as a whistleblower. And, like, one of the things that makes me a little nervous about the movie is, like, I felt like a lot of that period of my life kind of maybe receded a little bit, like it was more, you know, previous chapters than current chapters. And it is a very weird thing to be in the airport or something and have someone recognize you. You know, it is a very different way of moving through the world.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I wouldn’t say that it’s been — I still get job offers. I didn’t lose any friends. You know, all the worst-case scenarios didn’t come true for me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I wouldn’t say that it’s been — I still get job offers. I didn’t lose any friends. You know, all the worst-case scenarios didn’t come true for me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>And we just have a minute left. Your book is called \u003cem>The Power of One\u003c/em>, but with everything feeling so big and overwhelming, it can be hard not to feel like a single person is too small to affect anything. What are we doing when we sort of allow that sense of fatalism to creep into our lives?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>And we just have a minute left. Your book is called \u003cem>The Power of One\u003c/em>, but with everything feeling so big and overwhelming, it can be hard not to feel like a single person is too small to affect anything. What are we doing when we sort of allow that sense of fatalism to creep into our lives?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>So part of why I, you know, I called it \u003cem>The Power of One\u003c/em>, and one thing is I do try to help people explore throughout the book, is we — I feel like I was given a real gift when I went to, I went this brand-new college called Olin College of Engineering in Massachusetts, because they build into the curriculum enough space that you can also take humanities. And I took a lot of history classes, and I was a minor in Cold War studies.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>So part of why I, you know, I called it \u003cem>The Power of One\u003c/em>, and one thing is I do try to help people explore throughout the book, is we — I feel like I was given a real gift when I went to, I went this brand-new college called Olin College of Engineering in Massachusetts, because they build into the curriculum enough space that you can also take humanities. And I took a lot of history classes, and I was a minor in Cold War studies.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the story of the 20th century is of amazing things happening because individual people just don’t give up. You know, the British left India, the Soviet Union fell, apartheid ended. We should not feel like the world is impossible. We should just believe that we are in the prelude, you know, that the prologue to being able to get the change that we want.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the story of the 20th century is of amazing things happening because individual people just don’t give up. You know, the British left India, the Soviet Union fell, apartheid ended. We should not feel like the world is impossible. We should just believe that we are in the prelude, you know, that the prologue to being able to get the change that we want.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>I’m Frances Haugen. The book is \u003cem>The Power of One\u003c/em>. Thanks so much for talking with us. And my thanks to our listeners, and also to Jared Sport for producing this segment. You’ve been listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>I’m Frances Haugen. The book is \u003cem>The Power of One\u003c/em>. Thanks so much for talking with us. And my thanks to our listeners, and also to Jared Sport for producing this segment. You’ve been listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Airdate: Monday, September 29, 2026 at 10am\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Facebook whistleblower Frances Haugen leaked tens of thousands of pages of internal documents that were published in a 2021 Wall Street Journal exposé, now the basis of the forthcoming film “The Social Reckoning.” The documents revealed that the tech giant knew its engagement-driven algorithms accelerated political polarization, increased teenage mental health issues and incited ethnic violence abroad, and Haugen argued that Mark Zuckerberg routinely prioritized user growth and corporate profits over public safety. In her memoir “The Power of One: How I Found the Strength to Tell the Truth and Why I Blew the Whistle on Facebook,” Haugen details the personal and professional cost of exposing Meta and going public.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen\u003c/strong>, data scientist and author of “The Power of One: How I Found the Strength to Tell the Truth and Why I Blew the Whistle on Facebook”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Aaron Sorkin’s follow-up to the 2010 film \u003cem>The Social Network\u003c/em>, about the founding of Facebook, comes out next week, called \u003cem>The Social Reckoning\u003c/em>. This time, it’s about the 2021 revelations that Facebook knew its platform stoked division and harmed kids, especially teen girls, and did not act. Revelations that came to light after Frances Haugen decided to secretly leak thousands of internal documents to \u003cem>Wall Street Journal\u003c/em> reporter Jeff Horwitz. Haugen’s memoir, \u003cem>The Power of One: How I Found the Strength to Tell the Truth and Why I Blew the Whistle on Facebook\u003c/em>, is out in paperback this month, and she joins me now. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, Frances.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> Thank you for inviting me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What did you think of the film? I assume you got a preview.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> I did get to see it maybe two weeks ago, and I was really impressed because ever since conversations have begun on, you know, should they make a movie out of this? I’ve always been a little baffled, like, how do you make exciting taking a bunch of pictures? And, you know, Aaron Sorkin worked his magic, and it’s exciting and funny and all the things that you associate with an Aaron Sorkin movie. Um, so it was real surreal, and, um, it’s so odd seeing yourself up on the big screen. I’ll put it that way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I was going to say it must be surreal. How?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> And, you know, it’s one of these things. So there are parts of my experience where, you know, I don’t ruminate on what happened five years ago. You know, I have a wonderful life that is not related to social media. And there are parts of it that he depicted really well that, once I watched them, I was like, oh, yeah, I did write about that. That did happen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I’ll give you an example. You know, there were things that I had high levels of certainty about when I first started talking to Jeff. And there are things that I didn’t know, but I knew there were known unknowns when I started talking to Jeff. And they did a really good job of capturing that. Like, there was a period of time where we were trying to fit the puzzle pieces together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think it’s an important thing to remind people that these topics aren’t just complicated for, like, everyday people. They’re complicated for people who know a lot about them. And they did a great job of depicting that quest for understanding.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, they had Mikey Madison play you, the Oscar winner, and then Jeremy Allen White plays Jeff Horwitz. Did she get some of the details right or things that you had actually forgotten?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, like I was saying, like some of those things about the process of, like, you know, how did we create — I’ll say create meaning, right? Like, it’s one thing to have a giant stack of paper, and it’s another thing to be like, you know, why did this happen? What were all the dominoes that, like — because it’s very easy to tell a story about someone who’s evil, right? It’s like, oh, well, they did bad things because they wanted to hurt other people. You know, that almost never is the real story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, the movie does a really good job of depicting that there were different dependencies. There were things that the company was trying to navigate around. And they made choices that were short-sighted, that had really serious consequences. They were warned about them, but they were complicated. Like, it was — there were different balls in motion. And unfortunately, because there wasn’t the right either external oversight or internal guidance or leadership, bad choices were made.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I was also just wondering about the small details of you and your personality, whether those —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> So, it’s funny. Like, the thing that struck me the most was, um, so I have a vasospastic problem. So that means, uh, when I get colder than about 83 degrees Fahrenheit, um, I start to lose sensation in my hands and feet. So, like, right now, sitting in New York on kind of a drizzly day, I have, like, little heaters in my shoes because it allows me to, like, be comfortable enough. I can talk to you, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, I live in Puerto Rico today, and, um, it was wild watching her wear wrist warmers throughout the entire movie, which sounds like such a tiny detail. But I walked away from it being like, oh my God, like, I’ve done a lot of mental energy not thinking about this because being forced to watch her do this for two hours, I was like, wow, this is really disruptive. Like, this has actually been, like, a large — this is actually, you know, it’s like one of these things where you hear your voice recorded for the first time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, there were wrist warmers that she wore where I was like, I have knit wrist warmers that look exactly like those. You know, like, it’s so — I never told them about any of that. That’s all stuff that they summoned from the creative void.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow. And probably, well, you know, you do talk about your health issues and, interestingly, how dealing with them was sort of the hardest thing you’ve ever done, even harder than blowing the whistle on Facebook, though in a way the two are connected. But how so?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you know, originally when I set out to write a memoir, one of the things I was hoping to kind of, um, you know — there’s this interesting question that comes up in interviews over and over again. It’s like, you know, how are you able to do this? You know, like, it knew there were lots of people who had a chance to do this. You actually did it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think if people, if you talk to an average person about, like, why do they not follow their heart? And this could be about something way smaller than taking down a big company like Facebook. They’ll say things to you about they’re worried they’ll lose their job, they’ll lose their home, they’ll lose their partner. They’ll — they start to catastrophize, like, all these things that are kind of the pillars that we think are ourselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And over a period of time of, like, two years, like a pretty short period of time, like, I lost all those things because, like, you know, I started to get sick initially, and we didn’t know why. And my then boss thought I was faking the need for a wheelchair. So I went from needing to — I could ride 200 kilometers, so 125 miles, in a day on a bike — to being in a wheelchair in two and a half years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, you lose your job, you just — domino, domino, domino. And the process of having to put my life back together, you know, I don’t wish what happened to me on anyone else, but one of the things that it gave me was the realization that we think these things are who we are. You know, if we lost these things, how could we ever come back?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the reality is that we have so much more strength inside of ourselves than we give ourselves credit for until we have to use it. And so when I ended up in a situation where there were potentially consequences, you know, like, I weighed the odds. I thought it was, like, a reasonable risk.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, you know, I knew that I had already come back from having so little. And so it didn’t feel like a binary choice. It wasn’t like I was going to give up everything to do what I thought was right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You had already sort of experienced it and survived. Let me invite listeners into the conversation. What do you want to ask Frances Haugen or tell Frances, the Facebook whistleblower? Do you remember when those disclosures surfaced, the Facebook Files? And what effect did it have on you, listeners — your use of Facebook or Meta products, or how you thought about the company or tech companies more broadly, social media companies?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can email \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> at kqed.org, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram at KQED Forum, and you can call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Right, if you were gonna whistle-blow on a major company, you could have a lot of terrible things happen to you, including losing your job or losing people close to you — colleagues, friends, family and so on. But you had already sort of experienced that because, as you say, you know, your health deteriorated and ultimately you were pushed out of Google, right? That’s where you were when a lot of this was starting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> So when — so I got hired straight out of college to Google, and it was the, you know, they paid for grad school. So I was, I think, I’m pretty sure I was the first MBA they ever paid for an MBA. I was there for seven, seven and a half years, something like that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it was really heartbreaking in the moment. But I look at it and, you know, I ended up kind of getting to follow one of my great passions, which is I love social software. It’s like in the movie, they talk about, like, “I’m not here to hurt Facebook.” The only way Facebook can actually heal itself or have a long-term future is if they deal with their problems, right? And the way the system was set up and the system of incentives, they were never going to be able to make the choices they needed to make internally without having some external pressure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, I never would have gone to work at Pinterest if I hadn’t left Google. I would have never ended up working at Yelp. I would’ve never ended up at Facebook. And even today, like, I still love social software. Like, I love connecting people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so sometimes the things that, you know, I would never have left Google if I hadn’t been given a little, you know, little shove. Because I loved — I loved to search. Like, I loved getting to see inside of people’s thoughts. You know, it was beautiful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You were reluctant, though, to take a job at Facebook when they recruited you in 2019. Talk about why.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> It was funny. When I went to go write my memoir, I went back and was looking through old emails and old chat logs and all these things, and I was definitely less polite than I usually am with people when the Facebook recruiter reached out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because for context, for listeners, Facebook has struggled to hire people mid-career and more senior for a long time. So even though they pay substantially more than other similar employers like Google or Amazon or Apple, that kind of thing, if you have more than maybe five years of work experience, there’s not a huge amount of demand for people to work there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And part of that is that, you know, going back, I think at least as far as maybe the early 2010s, so it’s been over 10 years that this has been going on. There was kind of a perception that Facebook, you know, their motto, their old motto of “move fast and break things” — you know, if you’re a person who is more conscientious or you want to work on a single thing for a couple of years, sounds like a really basic ask. Inside of Facebook, it’s so dynamic that they, for example, they thought they bet the whole company on the metaverse five years ago and now they’re doing AI, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, it’s a more chaotic place that might have other motivating principles than maybe making technology that… There’s a lot of utopian thinkers in Silicon Valley, and I think Facebook attracts fewer of them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And it certainly didn’t help with, you know, the after-effects of the 2016 presidential election or Cambridge Analytica, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> But so when they reached out, they were like, oh, do you want to work at Facebook? And I was like, the only thing I would want to work on is misinformation, because I had watched the consequences of it. But that’s another chapter.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and let’s get into that chapter right after the break. We’re talking with Frances Haugen, who leaked tens of thousands of pages of internal documents that were published in a 2021 \u003cem>Wall Street Journal\u003c/em> exposé called the Facebook Files and helped people realize that the tech giant knew its platforms harmed kids, was riddled with misinformation and did nothing to address it. Haugen’s story is the inspiration for the forthcoming film \u003cem>The Social Reckoning\u003c/em>, and we’ll talk more with her and with you after the break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Listeners, do you remember the Facebook Files, the 2021 \u003cem>Wall Street Journal\u003c/em> exposé that showed that Facebook knew its platform stoked division, harmed kids, was riddled with misinformation and did nothing to address it? Facebook whistleblower Frances Haugen was the reason that we learned about that, and her story is part of the forthcoming film \u003cem>The Social Reckoning\u003c/em>, that’s out next week. It’s a follow-up to 2010’s \u003cem>The Social Network\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And listeners, during the conversation, what do you remember about the Facebook Files? What effect did it have on you? Your use of Facebook or Meta products at the time? How you thought about the company? Did it give you insights or thoughts about the broader incentives of the tech industry?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What do you want to ask or tell Facebook whistleblower Frances Haugen, whose memoir, \u003cem>The Power of One\u003c/em>, is out in paperback this month? The email address is forum@kqed.org. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As you know, Frances, before the break, you know, you were excited about social software, and the film clips suggest that you also, you know, appreciated what Facebook was trying to do with regards to connecting people. But the company had changed or was changing, right, with regard to how it was going to keep people on the platform.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> So a big part of my revelations back in 2021 was trying to make the public aware that Facebook’s own researchers, over the course of a couple of years, talking to political parties across Europe on the left, on the right, talking to people in the United States, had found that changes they had made to the algorithm, the little computer program that chooses what content you get to see when you open up Facebook.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They made choices to that algorithm to try to encourage people to produce more content. And unfortunately, one of the side effects of those business choices was that it also gave the most distribution to the most emotionally intense content. And that had the unfortunate impact of political parties saying things like, we used to be able to run, say, a white paper on our agricultural policy, which we get is not super sexy. It’s not thrilling. But that’s, like, what democracy is actually about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, there’s all these things that are not super exciting, but people read them. We could see from the stats people engaged. Now, if we don’t do really inflammatory, you know, accusations, things that make people angry, they don’t get the same distribution. And unfortunately, when you put that at scale, it changes the conversations that we get to have.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, nothing short of, as you write in your memoir, defining the issues we voted on. I have to say, reading it was such a reminder of how powerful those changes could be. And, of course, you know, the mental and physical health of kids, especially teen girls, the effects of that was also very well documented. So, yeah, did you want to say something?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> I was gonna say, one of the things that I was really amazed by with the movie is, you know, my memoir is a book. You know, there’s a lot of conversation on a lot of different issues around Facebook. The issue that, you know, they could have chosen many different things to focus on is like the — we’ll call it the simplified version of what information I brought out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the factoid they chose to make the kind of the smoking gun was about Facebook ran research on how do people find extremist groups and join them on Facebook, at least circa 2021, 2020? And what they found was two-thirds of the people who joined groups that were actively violating Facebook’s rules on violence, calling for violence, calling active hate speech, active threats against, say, minorities, the government, was because Facebook recommended that group to them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And… When you say something like that, it sounds implausible. It’s like, wait, you already said this is against your rules. Like, why are you recommending a group that’s against your rules?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But when you have these systems, there have to be motivations to keep them safe. And the question is, how safe is safe enough? And we currently live in an environment where there is no check and balance on the company other than the company being like, how safe should we be?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that’s the world that I was living in when I brought forward the information in 2021.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you also connect Facebook to January 6th, and of course you talk about how you feel like the groups, you know, would not have grown as fast as they had, would not have been able to spread the lies of —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, to be real clear, that’s not my opinion. It’s the research that I brought out from Facebook. They had data scientists that went in there and, after the fact, were like, wait, like, how did Stop the Steal get so big so fast?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I feel particularly empathetic to the people who got arrested on January 6th and said, when I looked at my Facebook feed, it looked real. Like, everything I saw said, this is happening, this is happening, this was happening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when the researchers inside of Facebook went back and said, how did this happen? Facebook had in place rules that allowed a single person to invite 300,000 people to Stop the Steal groups. Or a small group of people founded tens of different Stop the Steal groups, even though that kind of behavior of doing kind of shadow organizations and pretending you’re all independent isn’t an allowed behavior on Facebook.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And part of the reason why all these safety measures that were on for the election were off was that Facebook fired the team whose job was to run those systems. So no one was in charge. No one was responsible for saying, oh, the temperature is starting to overheat. Like, maybe we shouldn’t run the platform at 11 or 12. Maybe we should just run it at, like, seven or eight.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> How much did the film make quite a bit about how you really wanted to get to the bottom of how a friend of yours was radicalized? How much of that was, in fact, something that really prompted you to start to question Facebook?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> So part of why I was willing to take the job in the first place, because when I was offered the job back in spring of 2019, you know, I went and asked a variety of friends for feedback on, like, should I take this job? Like, I feel very conflicted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, on one side I see there’s a lot of opportunity for someone with my specific skill set. So someone who’s worked really intimately with the kinds of software that picks out what people see in their home feed, right? Like, I’d already done that job at Pinterest. I’d worked on, at that point, it would have been my fourth social network.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I could see that there was an opportunity to have impact, but I also was like, do I really wanna deal with something this messy?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the thing that pushed me to engage with it was that back in 2016, I had watched a friend who had been, like, very passionately for Bernie Sanders. After he lost the primary, he became very disillusioned. And, like, when he went on social media, like, he progressively got shown more and more extreme content that was not really related to our, like, consensus reality.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And watching him, like, passionately defend to me that, like, George Soros ran the world economy was like a terrifying experience for me because, like, if a smart, like, well-educated, like, someone who loved to consume information about the world, if being online could push them to be like, oh, we can’t even talk about newspapers because newspapers are all lies, you know, how do you come back from that level of disconnection or, like, estrangement?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, if it can happen to him, it can happen to anyone. And so that’s why I originally took the job.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, Jay in San Francisco writes, how did Frances get direct access to all those documents? If Facebook had incriminating documents, I’m surprised that they’d be available for any employee to see. Can you answer Jay’s question and also just the painstaking role you had to play getting those documents to Jeff Horwitz at the \u003cem>Wall Street Journal\u003c/em>?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> So, one of the downsides of being someone who works a lot with data is that it can make you, like, a little — a little paranoid, because you can imagine all the ways, if you were trying to catch yourself, like, how would you catch yourself?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so I followed, like, fairly tight cybersecurity. So I had a separate laptop that never had been connected to the internet. I had a phone that I don’t think even had a SIM card in it. Like, that is a small deviation on the movie. They have a flip phone in the movie, and I had, like, basically a phone with a touchscreen, but not an iPhone, just like a generic Android.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I had to go through and take pictures of each individual page, like one page at a time on my screen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It was interesting, he makes a great point. So, like, how did I have access to what I had access to? So for some things, I really got the accidental things that slipped through their net. So when it comes to, like, kids, for example, only about 10% of the pages I brought out were about kids.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when the court — the people who, the lawyers representing children who had been hurt, families that had been hurt, the attorneys general — were able to subpoena for pages, you know, I brought out maybe a couple thousand pages, they were able to get millions of pages about kids. So the stuff that we found out about kids was really the stuff that, like, by using the — you know, I’d worked on multiple search engines by the time I was at Facebook. You know, using all the kind of little tricks around, you know, could we search for this? Could we search this? Like, they just didn’t lock it down quite hard enough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But for all the stuff around political polarization, about how Facebook was influencing what ideas were allowed to be spread on the platform, I was exposed to a lot of that because I had worked on the teams that were looking at the algorithms, that were trying to understand why were we seeing things like ethnic violence in Myanmar, or later I worked on the working group that worked on the violence in Ethiopia. So it just happened to be that I had direct access because I worked on those issues.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Hmm. Listener Stopna writes, those of us who are in the mental health field know that the damage from social media is long-term and pervasive. I was aware that many tech companies, especially gaming companies, were hiring psychiatrists to make their products more addictive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think in search of that big idea and wanting to break things, ethics will likely take a back seat in this industry, absent accountability. You know, you’ve talked about, of course, the profit motive at Facebook and the pressures from shareholders and so on and so forth. But you also note that there was sort of a paranoia on the part of Zuckerberg of a Facebook killer that would come to displace the company.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> So we forget that the tech environment we live in today, it’s not eternal, right? Even Facebook, who’s at this point been around for more than 20 years, at some point it killed MySpace, which was, like, even bigger than Facebook back in 2004, 2005. Before that there was Friendster, which was very, very similar to Facebook.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Facebook could see elsewhere in the world that products would surge. So, for example, when Instagram was bought, Instagram only had, you know, they had less than 15 employees, and yet it sold for a billion dollars. And the reason why it was worth that much money with so few employees was Facebook had an app that it was paying people to run on their phones to report back on what apps they were using. And they could see that this little tiny photo-sharing app had exploded over the —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so social media is only as strong as the most recent wave of success it’s had. And so Mark’s always looking for what he can buy next, but he hasn’t been allowed to buy a big acquisition in a number of years now because of antitrust reasons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Did that paranoia drive his decision to also essentially offer or make his platform available in some of the most impoverished countries?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> One of the biggest motivators for me when I became a whistleblower was going into the company. I was very focused on our experience here in the United States. My friend is in the States, I’m in the United States. I’m watching, say, the 2016 election play out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just to remind people, because we forget what the internet was like in 2016. There were viral stories that were seen by tens of millions of people, 100 million people in the United States, like “Trump endorses — excuse me, Pope endorses Donald Trump.” Right? Like, things that today we’d be like, we don’t generally see that level of absurdity go that viral, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But when I joined the company, I learned a lot about how Facebook was being used outside the United States. So as an English speaker, speaking to other likely English speakers, we take for granted that we have a really rich and vibrant open internet that we can interact with. You know, if you don’t like a company, you don’t like a news source, there are alternatives.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Facebook went into some of the most fragile places in the world when no one was online. So we’re talking mid-2010s, early 2010s, and said, hey, we want you to be able to access the wonder of the internet, specifically Facebook. If you use our products, your dot is free. If you want to use anything else, you’re going to pay for it yourself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so in a lot of countries around the world, you know, you might not have a business webpage, you just have a Facebook page. Or even a newspaper might not do its own page, it might have a group and push out content through that Facebook group.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the difference between having an open internet where you get options and choices and competition and having a closed internet like that is that if the company, Facebook, doesn’t choose to invest in your safety, there aren’t other opportunities to get those safety needs met.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And what we found, I found in just the first couple months working at Facebook, was that while Facebook said we really care about everyone in the world, even though only about 11% of users spoke English, over half the safety budget was focused on English. You know, if you weren’t in Western Europe, if you were in the United States, you got very, very little safety investment comparatively.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And so even though it was providing this incentive for a closed network, it wasn’t doing anything to ensure or police that network, essentially. And you also connect that and others to violence or division and issues in these smaller countries.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> Well, that was kind of one of the wild things in the last six months I was at Facebook was in Ethiopia, a very large ethnic conflict emerged that was fueled by an information operation not even run inside the country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So in the case of Myanmar, the Burmese government built out a whole bunch of digital assets so that they could run an information operation against the Rohingya, their Muslim minority, to say, hey, you need to go after these people. These people are dangerous.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the case of Ethiopia, you had expats. So these are people who have left the country because there was an authoritarian government. You know, they’d been displaced. And they ran an information operation on their own back against the people inside their country, stoking division.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And one of the things that we need to remember, and I watched very, very front row in my last about year in the company, is that the nation-state actors know how cheap it is to run information operations. They know how little was invested in preventing them from freely operating.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in an open democracy like the United States, you know, we are very vulnerable to having our discourse influenced by people going in there and pushing ideas into groups or silencing people who might ask questions because it’s way more effective to make us fight each other than have someone outside fight us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it’s interesting, too, how you talk about, you know, the effect of your leaks. Like, your motivation was to come forward because you were concerned about tens of millions of lives and some of the most vulnerable places in the world. But that isn’t what ended up being the biggest things that moved things in this country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m sure you’re glad that there was a big reaction to your disclosures, but what did that sort of experience do for you, seeing that sort of disconnect between your intent and the outcome?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong> So I don’t want to say that I was cynical going into it, but I did know enough political science that I was aware that if you look at every Congress in the United States going back to 2000, this is not — we can’t blame it on either party and it’s not about right now. It’s like, this is an ongoing trend. It’s been going on for 25 years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Each progressive Congress passes less and less legislation. We are dealing with some really heavy, complicated, structural problems in how we have set up our government. You know, even our own Supreme Court justices, when you ask them, like, would you recommend copying the U.S. Constitution for a new country today? Like, they’re always like, they’re like, no comment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And we’ve seen action in Europe. And that’s where I expected to see action. And we’re seeing action through the court system in the United States. And those are the two things that I thought were most likely when I went into all this back in 2021.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Frances Haugen about the effect of her leaking tens of thousands of pages of internal documents from Facebook that showed the tech giant knew about its platform’s harms and did nothing to address it. A story that’s being dramatized in the film coming out next week called \u003cem>The Social Reckoning\u003c/em>. We’ll have more with Frances Haugen and with you after the break. Stay with us. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>Hi. Well, as someone who’s had to sign serious nondisclosure agreements at the seven Silicon Valley tech startups I’ve worked for, what were the consequences for you? Because no doubt Facebook had you sign one of those as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>Peter, thanks. So I was incredibly fortunate. So until Sarah Wynn-Williams came forward with her book, \u003cem>Careless People\u003c/em>, and Meta came after her with hundreds of millions of dollars in penalties, they had never sued another whistleblower. So I came into the experience pretty sure that I wasn’t going to be destroyed, at least in the courts, by Facebook, just because it’s a very bad look to go after an individual employee, especially when they’ve documented thoroughly that you knew you were doing things wrong and you continue to do them for profit reasons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I would say the biggest consequences for me have been, like, I had a very private life before I came forward as a whistleblower. And, like, one of the things that makes me a little nervous about the movie is, like, I felt like a lot of that period of my life kind of maybe receded a little bit, like it was more, you know, previous chapters than current chapters. And it is a very weird thing to be in the airport or something and have someone recognize you. You know, it is a very different way of moving through the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I wouldn’t say that it’s been — I still get job offers. I didn’t lose any friends. You know, all the worst-case scenarios didn’t come true for me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>And we just have a minute left. Your book is called \u003cem>The Power of One\u003c/em>, but with everything feeling so big and overwhelming, it can be hard not to feel like a single person is too small to affect anything. What are we doing when we sort of allow that sense of fatalism to creep into our lives?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Frances Haugen:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>So part of why I, you know, I called it \u003cem>The Power of One\u003c/em>, and one thing is I do try to help people explore throughout the book, is we — I feel like I was given a real gift when I went to, I went this brand-new college called Olin College of Engineering in Massachusetts, because they build into the curriculum enough space that you can also take humanities. And I took a lot of history classes, and I was a minor in Cold War studies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the story of the 20th century is of amazing things happening because individual people just don’t give up. You know, the British left India, the Soviet Union fell, apartheid ended. We should not feel like the world is impossible. We should just believe that we are in the prelude, you know, that the prologue to being able to get the change that we want.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>I’m Frances Haugen. The book is \u003cem>The Power of One\u003c/em>. Thanks so much for talking with us. And my thanks to our listeners, and also to Jared Sport for producing this segment. You’ve been listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Announcer:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>Funds for the production of \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> are provided by the Jenerosity Family Fund and the members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Wednesday, September 23, 2026 at 10 am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Rep. Nancy Pelosi will retire following the 2026 midterm elections, bringing to end her almost 40-year career in Congress. In a new five-part podcast series, “The Speaker,” KQED’s Scott Shafer embarked on an ambitious reporting project to capture the story of the first woman Speaker of the House. Shafer traces how Pelosi rose from unlikely Congressional candidate to one of the most powerful women in American politics. Shafer and Pelosi biographer Susan Page joins us to talk about Pelosi’s political legacy and where the Democratic Party goes from here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer,\u003c/strong> senior politics correspondent at KQED’s Politics and Government desk and Political Breakdown co-host\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Susan Page,\u003c/strong> Washington Bureau Chief, USA Today; author, “Madam Speaker: Nancy Pelosi and the Lessons of Power”\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Padmini Raghunath,\u003c/strong> series editor, “The Speaker”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Lesley McClurg. I’m in today for Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Nancy Pelosi. After nearly four decades representing San Francisco in Congress, she is preparing to leave office. She was the first woman elected Speaker of the House and obviously became one of the most consequential figures in American politics.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We are joined by two journalists who know her story inside and out. Our own Scott Shafer, who is senior politics correspondent here at KQED and the host of a new podcast about Nancy Pelosi called \u003cem>The Speaker\u003c/em>. Welcome, Scott.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Thanks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> We’re also joined by Susan Page. She is Washington Bureau Chief for \u003cem>USA Today\u003c/em> and author of \u003cem>Madam Speaker: Nancy Pelosi and the Lessons of Power\u003c/em>. Welcome, Susan.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> It’s great to be with you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Scott, you sat down with Nancy for five interviews for this series, for this new podcast series, and you noted that she tends to push back. Sometimes she’s not an easy interview. She’s maybe even a little reticent to talk about her legacy, even though that was the point of these interviews. What was the dynamic? What was it like in the room with her?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Well, it depends on what you were talking about. I mean, she’s very gracious. You know, if you go to her office in D.C., there’s bowls of Ghirardelli chocolate everywhere. You know, she’s really friendly. But when you sit down to interview her, she’s like, everything she does is very focused. And if she doesn’t like either the question or the way the question is framed or the assumption behind the question, she’ll let you know.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, I talked with her at one point about what I described as the turmoil in the Democratic Party, you know, based on some of the primary battles in some of the states, like Michigan. And she just, you know, she jumped right in and she goes, “I wouldn’t call it turmoil.” It’s not — you know, she will let you know how she feels.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then probably the most contentious conversation I had with her was over her endorsement of Connie Chan in the race to replace her in the congressional race. And, you know, we’re journalists, right? We ask questions, and she really didn’t like the questions. She didn’t like being questioned, her judgment being questioned. You know, and she let me know that in no uncertain terms. And she told me at one point, “You sound like the Chronicle or the Examiner, and they’re irrelevant.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I heard that. It was a great little clip. Susan, what about you? Was there a particular contentious moment in the — I think you sat with her for 11 interviews when you wrote her biography.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> You know, she’s such a tough interview because she is so accustomed to being in control and because she has talking points. It’s really hard to get her off the things that she has said before and that she intends to say.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I was grateful for the interviews that I had, but we had some contentious moments. At one point, when I was asking her some questions about a scandal involving her brother when he was young, she did not think this was an appropriate topic for us to be talking about. She made that clear.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And there was one particular interview where she had just come back from a very combative meeting with the Squad, with those very liberal, then-new members of Congress who were giving her some trouble. And at that point, she wasn’t mad at me, but she was fired up about them. And I’ve got to say, that turned out to be the best interview I had with her.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Scott, did you find, as you were doing this work, that there was a particular theme that ran through her career?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think we’ve kind of alluded to it. I mean, her personal tenacity and discipline, her focus. Her phrase is basically just, “Win, baby.” She is focused on winning, whether it is getting a bill passed or blocking a nomination or impeaching a president or getting your preferred candidate elected in the race to replace you. She is all in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I don’t think she does anything half-heartedly. And so that, I think you see that throughout her entire career, her entire life, really, including when she was younger.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Is she fierce or likable in that role? Both. That’s the thing about Nancy Pelosi. She’s been described as a steel fist in a Gucci glove or the velvet hammer — what a pickier metaphor. She is both very gracious and charming.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think one of the secrets to her rise was her relationships with her caucus. And not just her caucus, but people in general. Gets to know people, their families, their birthdays, their anniversaries, when there’s a death in the family, a divorce, and that personal touch. While she is, yes, she is fierce on your behalf as well as against you if she doesn’t like, you know, where you’re coming from.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Susan, what do you think is at the heart of her legacy? Four decades.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> Four decades. Well, of course, one thing that will be in the first line of every obituary will be that she was the first woman Speaker of the House. She was, and I think remains, the most powerful woman in the history of the American government.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, some would say Kamala Harris was higher ranking because she was vice president, but if you’re looking at political power to get things done, there’s no comparison between those two roles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think she is also an architect of the Affordable Care Act, which was the greatest expansion of health care coverage in a generation, and just generally a force to be reckoned with, including her ability to help lead Democrats to majorities in the House, which enabled her to do all those other things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Scott, you were here for the last three decades covering government and politics in San Francisco, and you watched Gavin Newsom and Kamala Harris rise, their careers going all the way up to the national stage. What is unique about San Francisco that kind of forges these political candidates like Nancy Pelosi?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> You know, I think San Francisco is a city of about 800,000 people, and it’s been punching above its weight in politics for decades, going all the way back to Phil Burton, you know, who was also a powerhouse representing San Francisco in Congress.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To me, I — it’s several things. You know, it’s being described, San Francisco politics, as a knife fight in a phone booth. Fifty shades of blue. It’s mostly all Democratic, relatively liberal, maybe a little left of center, a little right of center by San Francisco standards.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if you could emerge from that cauldron where you have to go around and talk to the Chinese American Democratic Club and the Raoul Wallenberg Democratic Club and the Arab American Democratic Club and the environmental group, you know, and on and on, and on, you learn how to talk with different constituencies, how to build coalitions, how to take incoming fire.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if you can emerge from that environment, as Dianne Feinstein did, Gavin Newsom did, obviously Nancy Pelosi, Barbara Boxer, to a certain extent, although she was more Marin, you’re kind of prepared for battle.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, and so it really, it’s like — it, it like being on the farm team, you know, and you’ve really learned how to be the, like, best pitcher or whatever hitter or whatever it might be. Uh, so if you emerge from San Francisco, it was like, wow, you’ve been tested.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I love that metaphor. In the very first episode of the series that came out, I think, last Wednesday — our second episode comes out today — so in that first episode, you focus on the 1987 special election. And this is following Sala Burton’s death. Tell us who is Sala Burton. You mentioned the Burton family just a minute ago. And what was her relationship to Nancy Pelosi?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so Sala Burton was married to Phil Burton. Phil Burton almost became the first, you know, Speaker of the House from California. You know, he came just like a couple of votes short of being majority leader, and he was a firebrand. He’s largely responsible for protecting the Northern California coast, the Golden Gate Recreation Act. And he was sort of that architect of coalition politics, bringing in gay people and Asian Americans and labor and Italian Americans and all the rest.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so Sala Burton was married to him, and Phil Burton died suddenly, I think he was 56 years old, of an aneurysm, which was shocking to everybody. And so Sala Burton, as often happens, the widow, took his place and won election and then re-election. But then she got cancer and was dying.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And on her deathbed, she summoned John Burton, her brother-in-law, and also Nancy Pelosi and others. And she said to them, “I want Nancy Pelosi to take my place.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that was shocking. In fact, John Burton told us years later that when she said, “I want Nancy to take my place,” they thought she was talking about Nancy Walker, who was a liberal member of the Board of Supervisors.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It was not at all in their vision, but Sala Burton saw something in Nancy Pelosi that I think more people came to see after she rose in politics.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And what was Nancy Pelosi’s response to that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Well, she said to us, you know, Sala said to me, “I want you to run for my seat, and I want you to tell me right now,” because she was very sick.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Pelosi said, you know, I asked her, “Why had you never thought of running for office?” And she said, “Well, it was like, why had I never gone skydiving?” You know, it’s just — no, no, no. And no, she would work on the inside of politics. Not like she was not familiar with politics, but being the out-front elected official had not occurred to her.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So she had to ask her one remaining daughter at home. She had six kids. And, uh, her daughter, you know, Alexandra, was a teenager at that time, and she said, “What teenage girl wouldn’t want her mother out of the house most of the week?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Padmini Raghunath:\u003c/strong> Go do it, Mama. Get out there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Get out there. Get a life, she said, literally. And so that’s what she had to get the sign-off from her family, but then she was good to go.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And she entered a really intense contest. She was up against Harry Britt, who was another left-leaning candidate. And he had the backing of Harvey Milk’s political movement and the very deeply organized gay community at the time, which was reeling from the AIDS epidemic. Let’s hear a clip from Britt at the —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Harry Britt:\u003c/strong> So I think it’s legitimate for us to point out that the people who care the most about AIDS, and certainly the gay community, which cares in a passionate way about AIDS, is very united behind my candidacy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> But was the gay community skeptical or behind Pelosi? How did they feel about Pelosi?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> You know, there was a split, but I would say, if I had to guess, I would say it was two to one, you know, for Harry Britt. There were some more moderate folks in the gay community, you know, maybe a little more business-oriented, who supported Nancy Pelosi.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And she had key support from the Burton machine, from Art Agnos and Willie Brown and Phil Burton, John Burton, and she had a very savvy campaign operation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, you know, the gay community wanted their own representative, especially during the AIDS epidemic. We had, you know, President Reagan. George Deukmejian was governor, two Republicans, and they wanted somebody to go back to D.C. and fight for them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And they didn’t see — they didn’t know Nancy Pelosi and didn’t think she was the right person to do that. But she promised that that’s what she would do. But they still thought, you know, Harry Britt is the one who’s really going to understand what we need as LGBTQ people in the district.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that’s largely who they voted for, but it wasn’t unanimous by any means.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Let’s hear a clip from a televised 1987 debate that was hosted right here at KQED. It’s featured in the first episode of your series. And this is where Pelosi faces attacks for self-funding and for being a socialite and for being an establishment pick.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Harry Britt:\u003c/strong> And what we have is, we have in this election somebody saying, “The machine backs me. I’ve got a million bucks. I don’t live in your district. I’ve never met many of your slobs, but I’m going to be your new leader because I got bucks and I’m powerful.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Moderator:\u003c/strong> How can she relate to people like me, a single parent, working mother, or somebody else?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Moderator:\u003c/strong> Let’s let Nancy answer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> I don’t think you have to be sick to be a doctor or poor to understand the problems of the poor. I have spent my life committed to the ideals of the Democratic Party.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> We are talking about the legacy of Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who you just heard there in a 1987 debate that happened right here at KQED. We are joined by Scott Shafer, he is senior politics correspondent, and Susan Page is Washington Bureau Chief of \u003cem>USA Today\u003c/em>. We’ll be right back after this break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’d love to hear from you. Do you have a favorite moment or a favorite memory of Nancy Pelosi? Give us a call right now and tell us about it. 866-733-6786. Again, that’s 866-733-6786. We’ll be right back after this break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. We’re talking about the legacy of Speaker Nancy Pelosi. She is about to retire after four decades representing San Francisco in Congress.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We are joined by Scott Shafer. He’s senior politics correspondent right here at KQED. And Susan Page is Washington Bureau Chief for \u003cem>USA Today\u003c/em>. She’s also author of \u003cem>Madam Speaker: Nancy Pelosi and the Lessons of Power\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’d love to hear from you. Tell us about your favorite moment or maybe your favorite memory from Nancy Pelosi’s career. What do you think will be Pelosi’s legacy in your mind?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can email your comments, your questions to \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a> or find us on any of the social platforms, Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram. We’re at KQED Forum. Or you can just give us a call now at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We were just talking there about the special election in 1987. Pelosi outspent the other 13 candidates combined, and she invested more than $200,000 of her own money. She drew on political action committee money, and she argued that raising funds actually offered her political independence. Let’s hear a clip.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Corporate money goes to the Republicans. That’s just the way it is. I mean, I’d probably raise billions of dollars, a couple billion dollars, if it’s not in favor of corporate America, you can just imagine, and certainly not of Wall Street.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I completely, totally disagree that the Democratic Party is dominated by corporate money. It isn’t. And certainly the Democrats vote for gun violence prevention. The Republicans do not. The Democrats vote for protecting the environment. The other people are in the pocket of the fossil fuel industry, as well as the gun industry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So it is a big difference, but we haven’t made that clear. And every poll shows, oh, they think we’re both sort of the same.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Susan, does that pretty much sum it up, or did her perspective on political money ever shift?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> You know, political money has been one of the sources of her power from the start. And of course, even before she was even a candidate, she was a considerably adept fundraiser, including for the Senate campaign committee. And so that is something she has never apologized for, raising money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She’s skilled at raising money from big donors. It was a new generation of politicians that demonstrated how, in an age of social media, you could do that with small donors, Bernie Sanders being a good example of that. But this was a source of Pelosi’s power.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Let’s see if I could just say one more thing that you had asked Scott about why, despite her history in politics, including her family history, she had said she never considered running until Sala Burton suggested it in 1987.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I would say one reason is that she was a member of the Silent Generation, born in 1940, toward the end of the Silent Generation. No expectation that women would run for office.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Her father, the mayor of Baltimore, wanted his sons to run for mayor, but it never occurred to either him or his daughter that she might be a candidate for office. So in that way, she really reflects such big changes, such huge shifts in the American political system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> David writes, “If the Democrats had their act together, we would have elected Nancy Pelosi as president of the USA.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Let’s go back and just wrap up that 1987 race. Obviously, she won. How did she win, Scott? And how did the gay activists at the time take the loss of Britt?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Well, she had a great campaign team. The late Clint Reilly managed it. Marshall Ganz, who was a very skilled organizer, has a history with the United Farm Workers, was part of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And they divided up the city very strategically into groups. They sent separate mailers to different communities. They even quietly slipped some messages to Republican voters. And they knew that the preponderance of the gay vote was going to go to Harry Britt. So they had to figure out how do they piece together a majority from the rest of the city, which they did. But not by a lot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, the gay community was skeptical of her, but when she won the primary, there would then be a runoff in June. But in between the primary and the general in June, she met with gay activists, and not just, you know, as we say, the expensive-sweater crowd, but, you know, really some of ACT UP, some of the more radical members of the community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I don’t know if they were won over, but I think they were impressed by that first meeting. We have some people like Tom Ammiano in the podcast in that first episode saying that tears were shed by her as she talked with them about what their needs were in the middle of this epidemic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think it took a while, but certainly once that first term in office, the very first thing she did when she was sworn in, the first speech she gave on the House floor, mentioned getting more funding for AIDS.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Let’s go ahead and hear a clip from there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> For peace, for environmental protection, for equal rights, for rights of individual freedom. And now we must take the leadership, of course, in the crisis of AIDS. And I look forward to working with you on that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Susan, how big a deal was it that she brought up AIDS there?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> You know, it’s easy to forget the stigma around AIDS at that point. So 1987, it was not until 1987 that President Reagan gave his first speech about AIDS, even though the disease had emerged six years earlier.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when Pelosi came here and gave her first speech on the House floor after being sworn in and talked about AIDS, it was a time when there were only a handful of members of Congress willing to say the word.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in that way, that is the early attention she got here. A freshman member of Congress of the House, big deal in Washington. I mean, not a big deal in Washington, one who was willing to tackle an issue that most of them avoided, that was kind of a big deal.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Russ writes, “Nancy Pelosi is an amazing woman worthy of respect and a career that merits celebration. But let’s not anoint her as a saint. For example, a strong argument could be made that when she defended her heavy investments in tech companies, including Tesla and Apple, even as she presided as Speaker of the House and controlled legislation that affected those communities, she was normalizing corruption and paving the way for the unbridled corruption of Donald Trump.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Do you agree with that critique, Susan?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> I think that’s definitely a point of vulnerability for her. She resisted the idea of limits on stock sales by members of Congress and their family at a time that the need for that became more and more apparent by what we saw some members of Congress do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> The second episode of the series focuses on Baltimore’s Little Italy and her parents. That was Mayor Tommy D’Alessandro and Annunciata, or Big Nancy, her mom was named.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Susan, you spoke with Rahm Emanuel and he told you that she is 99% D’Alessandro and 1% Pelosi. Excuse me, that should have said — I should have — that was Scott. Scott said that, my bad there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> He might have said it’s Susan also.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> How would you say her parents, these characters, influenced her career in that statement there, you know, 99% D’Alessandro?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, it was the family business, you know, hanging out with her mother, Big Nancy. You know, and watching her. Susan Page wrote about this, and I can’t recommend her book too much, \u003cem>Madam Speaker\u003c/em>, terrific. It was super helpful to us in putting the podcast together. It’s a great read with some amazing stories.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, you know, she talked, Susan, in her book about the favor file, which was basically keeping track of what have you done for constituents? What do they owe you? You know, and then we got election time. Okay, remember that time we, you know, got your, you know, brother-in-law into the hospital or whatever it might be.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so that, you know, management of the favor file was really critical. And she learned the importance of loyalty. You know, you got to dance with the one that brought you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so I think she just really — and just bare-knuckles political style. I mean, her father was involved. There had been a number of kind of like — I don’t want to say scandals, but there were some questionable issues around the way he ran the city on occasion. Susan can tell you more about that, but, you know, I think that is where she learned the nuts and bolts of constituent services, winning, and counting votes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> She really knew how to play the game is what I’m hearing you say.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, it wasn’t a game, you know, it was serious business and getting re-elected time and time again. Her brother also became mayor of Baltimore. So, you know, it was, you know, was like, you know, some kids are out playing baseball. She was out playing politics.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Kevin in San Francisco writes, “I met Nancy Pelosi last weekend at Swenson’s Ice Cream, and I took the opportunity to tell her I am the grandson of a Holocaust survivor and I’m not satisfied with her response to Israel’s attacks on Gaza. I asked how she felt about the issue as a grandparent. She didn’t give me a very satisfying answer and I was eventually cut off by her security detail.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Susan, was that a big critique of hers, how she handled the Middle East?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> Well, I do not think that’s been the focus of a lot of attention when you think about the big things that Pelosi has done. This is an issue that’s become, of course, enormously controversial now, given Israel’s actions against Gaza.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I do think — here’s one thing I think is interesting. I think it’s interesting that a former Speaker of the House, number one, is going out for ice cream. I can guarantee you she got chocolate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Number two, was willing to engage with someone who was giving her — challenging her, even if he eventually got cut off by security detail. That is, like, reasonably unusual these days.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think one source of Pelosi’s strength, and Scott would know this better than I, was the fact that she kept pretty grounded in her district and she was back there all the time, even though it meant those cross-country flights.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I would totally agree with that. You know, she was in the district all the time, cutting ribbons, going to town hall meetings, funerals, whatever it might be. She was very visible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, Kevin McCarthy, not so much, you know, when he was Speaker. You know, it is a schlep, you know, to fly all the way back out to the district. But even some members of Congress on the East Coast, they get kind of comfortable in their seats, like Joe Crowley did when he was running for re-election and AOC beat him because he was never in the district.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so Pelosi learned the importance of being visible, making sure you’re present when you need to be so people remember you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Hit the pavement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Carol writes, “You obviously went so deep on Nancy Pelosi. What surprised you most about her?” This is for Susan.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> Ah, uh, you know, she’s, uh, she — here’s, here’s what struck me. I’ve covered Washington for a long time. I was in Washington when she arrived. Uh, I have covered 12 presidential elections.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Nancy Pelosi is the person I’ve — who is the most comfortable with power. She is the more comfortable with how to amass power. And once you have it, how to keep it. And once you’ve kept it, how to use it. And that is… quite remarkable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So in some ways, when, you know, everyone says first woman Speaker of the House, that’s certainly true. She was, in fact, one of the most effective congressional leaders in the history of the United States, male or female.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Scott, Pelosi announced her bid for Democratic whip in 2001. Just for those who might not follow politics, what is a whip and why did Pelosi want that specific job?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Well, it was the next leadership position available on the rung. You know, it goes whip, you know, majority leader, Speaker or minority leader, Speaker. And so that was the position that was open.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, at that time, there were a lot of men there. All the leadership was men up to that point. And there were people like Steny Hoyer, who was from Maryland, who thought it was kind of his turn. Others agreed it was his turn, and so she said, “No, I’m going to run. I’m gonna break into the line,” basically.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I’m not going to wait around. I’ve paid my dues.” They kept saying, “Well, you have to pay your dues.” She said, “I paid my dues,” you know, from before I got into Congress. Raising money to help elect Democrats to the Senate and being chair of the Democratic Party in California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, you know, she really wasn’t — she saw that the people who were in charge didn’t have a plan to win. You know, she had seen them lose the House for the first time in 40 years in 1994, and then ’96, ’98, and then 2000. They kept losing, you know, and so she said, “Look, we’ve got to win here. And so I’ve got a plan.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Let’s hear a clip there where she was quite impatient during that time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> ’94, ’96, ’98. I was like, there’s no plan to win. It was more of an attitude thing, like the pendulum will swing, but I didn’t see really a decision to have it be a wrecking ball, not a pendulum, a wrecking ball.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You decide to win, and then you make every decision in favor of winning. Quite frankly, I’m really tired of losing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Susan, how was her appetite for that kind of confrontation? How was it viewed?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> You know, Republicans came to fear her. I can tell you Democrats came to fear her, too, during that early whip race. She was not welcomed to run. Congress was overwhelmingly male, pretty staid in terms of climbing the ladder of leadership.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And she just, in the end, ignored them and went and waged a race and won the race on the basis of the size of the California delegation, and that was a big asset. Her support among some of the women who were serving in Congress and the fact that she could raise money. And she turned that into winning the whip race.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And with the whip race, that set her on the path that led her to eventually be Speaker. It set Democrats on the pathway that enabled them to regain a majority.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> You know, one thing I would add to that, everything Susan just said is absolutely true. The other kind of ace in the hole that she had, the secret sauce or secret weapon, was a congressman from Pennsylvania named Jack Murtha, very popular, pretty conservative, his sort of coal-country representative.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He was for her. And I think that stunned — that sent a signal to all of these male, longtime members of Congress, like, oh, she’s serious. I mean, she’s got Murtha.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Murtha actually helped run the campaign for whip for her. And it was just, you know, it was an indication of her ability to really work with diverse members of the Democratic Party. You know, they didn’t agree on everything, which he ended up being very helpful to her later when, you know, or actually before that, on the Presidio, when the base closed and turning it into a park and nonprofits and that kind of thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So they knew each other. And she really — he really respected her. And, you know, he saw her focus on winning. And so he went with her.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Anne Marie writes, “Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi is a rare, precious gem. Not only is she consistently gracious, but she is effective in accomplishing things for the people. I met her over 30 years ago as another human being. When I met, she warmly remembers me and my family to this day. Stellar human. What a blessing to live in San Francisco during her lifetime.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Christopher writes, “Nancy Pelosi is popular among liberals, but she supported every single war and every military spending increase. This undermined the domestic agenda. She also killed the Green New Deal and fought against Medicare for All.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What do you think? We would love to hear from listeners. We’d love to know maybe a favorite memory, your critiques or your praise for Nancy Pelosi. What do you think her legacy will be? Do you think the Democratic Party is ready to go on without her?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can email your comments, your questions to \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. You can find us on Discord, on Bluesky, on Facebook, on Instagram, or at KQED Forum. Or you can just give us a call right now at 866-733-6786. 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Susan, she challenged Steny Hoyer and she broke traditional seniority lines when she did that. Talk about that moment and how did Democrats respond to that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> And, Lesley, if I could just make the point that there’s one inaccuracy in the comment that you just read about Nancy Pelosi’s record on war. Lots of things to criticize about Pelosi, no question. That’s certainly fair game.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Nancy Pelosi supported the war in Afghanistan. She opposed the war on Iraq from the start. She was the highest-ranking Democratic official in Congress to oppose the invasion of Iraq when it began. She called that one the biggest mistake made in the history of the United States, although she said that before President Trump was president. I don’t know if she would amend that statement now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But she served — she was very proud of having served on the Intelligence Committee because she said it gave her insights into what was actually going on, on things like the lead-up to the war in Iraq. And on that, she did take a stand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now with Steny Hoyer, I would say that if you talk to Steny Hoyer today, some of the wounds from that whip race remain with both of them. You know, that was the kind of race that the people involved on both sides will never forget.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> We are talking about the legacy of Nancy Pelosi as she approaches retirement after the 2026 midterm elections. Let’s sneak in a really quick call. You gotta be quick, Stuart.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart:\u003c/strong> Hi. I’m just feeling really nostalgic because so many milestones in my life are connected to this chapter in Nancy Pelosi’s career.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I met my husband at an election house party for Harry Britt for Congress in 1987. So obviously we were Harry Britt supporters, but Nancy won us over with that first speech on the floor of the House when she talked about HIV/AIDS.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Our key aide, Steve Morin, originally an opponent in that race, but he became a key staffer and together they championed the Ryan White CARE Act, which made all the difference in HIV/AIDS funding in this country. Steve later became my boss at UCSF.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m really going to miss Nancy being in Congress, though, because every time I’ve heard she’s been there 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, I know I have an anniversary coming up with my husband. We’ve made it 39 years together — my husband and Nancy and I.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Congratulations, Stuart. That is so beautiful. Really, congratulations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ll be right back after this break. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. We are talking about Speaker Nancy Pelosi and her legacy after four decades representing San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I want to bring Padmini Raghunath into the conversation. She is the series editor for the podcast that we’re talking about called \u003cem>The Speaker\u003c/em>. This is what Scott Shafer and her worked on together. Scott Shafer is also joining us. He’s senior politics correspondent here at KQED. And we’re also joined by Susan Page. She is Washington bureau chief for \u003cem>USA Today\u003c/em>, and author of \u003cem>Madam Speaker: Nancy Pelosi and the Lessons of Power\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Padmini, the last few episodes of this series, they’re not actually out yet. Just number two is out today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Padmini Raghunath:\u003c/strong> Number one and two are out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> This third episode is going to be about the Affordable Care Act. Why did you devote a whole episode to that specifically?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Padmini Raghunath:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much for having me on, first of all. And I also wanted to mention, it wasn’t just the two of us. We also have a brilliant producer named Ariella Markowitz, who we couldn’t have done this without, obviously. Shout-out to Ariella. And a whole team behind us also.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, yeah, I mean, we only had five episodes. And it was kind of a big move to devote a whole episode to the passage of the Affordable Care Act. And of course, aside from it being kind of Pelosi’s achievement, her legacy, it’s also, to me as an editor, kind of a really interesting sausage-making moment, if that makes sense.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the first two episodes are really devoted to her accumulating power, kicking down the doors, as we’ve been talking about. And this third episode is this moment where, okay, now you’re here. What does it actually take to get a bill like that passed?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, it’s kind of interesting to work on something historical because, you know, we’re always looking for tension, having people sitting on the edge of their seats. But we, I feel like, kind of maybe achieved that just by going beat by beat. You know, how do you have to, like, bob and weave through D.C. politics, basically, to get something like this passed?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then, of course, I mean, the Affordable Care Act ended up becoming this sort of lightning rod for controversy and arguably the Tea Party movement and, you know, all sorts of sort of effects, run-on effects, that we’re still feeling today. And so it was also important to kind of situate that, I think, to help understand our current moment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> To talk about those right-wing movements, but before we move on from the ACA, Scott, do you think that Pelosi had to really compromise on her own values to get it across the line?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> She would say no. You know, the Affordable Care Act, first of all, the president and Rahm Emanuel and David Axelrod, they weren’t even sure that now was the time. This is like in the middle of the mortgage meltdown, and, you know, the economy was not doing well, was just maybe beginning to recover.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so getting this thing through Congress was very difficult. It was a huge bill, a huge change. And of course, the obstacle was the Senate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, the Democrats, if you can believe it, at that time had 60 votes in the Senate, which was a filibuster-proof majority. But then Ted Kennedy died. And so they went down to 59. They temporarily had 60. But they also had Joe Lieberman, who was one of the Democrats from Connecticut, which is the home to a lot of insurance companies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And he would not vote for the public option, which is something that Pelosi and her caucus really wanted as a separate option for people to get on the marketplace that would compete with insurance plans out there, would be subsidized by the government. And, you know, thinking was it would drive down price, would provide competition.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Senate version did not have that. And Pelosi was just a pragmatist, like, look, we’re stuck with this Senate bill because, you know, we just have to amend it. We have to fix it to make it more palatable to us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And there were a lot of compromises in that. You know, I think some people, you know, some earlier caller or a listener commented on the Green New Deal. You know, Pelosi, who dismissed that as the Green New Dream or something, you know, she’s like all about what can you get done? What can we get?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And she knew what she could get enough votes for in the Senate, what she could get votes for enough in the House. Abortion, you know, navigating that was a big issue. So, you know, she, she did everything she could to get the best bill possible from a Democratic point of view.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that, you know, sausage-making that Padmini alluded to, that’s politics, you know.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Let’s hear from a caller, Lois in Piedmont. You’re on the air.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lois:\u003c/strong> And, uh, I’m delighted to say that when I was — I’m an Emerge alum, which is a Democratic training program for pro-choice women — and our executive director, Kimberly Ellis, at the time, we were at the state convention in Southern California and she invited Nancy Pelosi to be our woman to talk to us about leadership and politics.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I just remember she had just passed the — she, and I call it she, the Affordable Care Act — and she’s talking to me privately, she’s looking me in the face, and I was just like so inspired by that, to a woman leader who, of course, represents the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I was, at the time, campaigning to be a trustee for the County Board of Education in Alameda County, and I was just so inspired by her.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then recently, I got to see her when Belva Davis was acknowledged. And I said, you know, “Can you keep working?” And she said, “No. Enjoy your time,” and I hope I can eat her for ice cream as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I hope you get to meet her for ice cream as well, Lois. Let’s stay with the phones. Shannon in San Francisco, you’re on the air.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shannon:\u003c/strong> Hi. Yeah. Um, so I was born and raised in San Francisco. I’m a U.S. Navy service-connected disabled veteran, and I worked for a nonprofit called Swords to Plowshares.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I have to admit that Nancy Pelosi has been one of the most ardent supporters of veterans, veterans issues, veterans benefits, and the Department of Veterans Affairs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And she’s one of those few people — not woman, not man, just few people — who never served, never was in the military, and has always been there for this population more so than, like, John McCain or Bob Dole, who actually were in the military.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And regardless of all her faults, I have to give it to her for being there for people like myself. That’s really about it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I’m so glad that you had her support, Scott. It sounds like you want to —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, I wish I had a dollar for every press release I got where Nancy Pelosi was going to be at Swords to Plowshares doing something. She was there an awful lot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, you know, kind of in reference to that earlier comment from a listener that she supported every war. And as Susan correctly pointed out, she voted against the Iraq war, but she refused to cut funding for the troops once they were there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She didn’t like the war. She was highly critical of President Bush over that. And it was part of their platform for winning back the majority in 2006.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But she’s also very patriotic. I think that’s maybe something people don’t know about Nancy Pelosi. Her favorite holiday, according to her, is Memorial Day. She loves to acknowledge the role of veterans and people who serve this country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And people don’t necessarily identify the liberal Democrat from San Francisco in that way. But she is very much patriotic. We haven’t talked about her faith. She’s very religious. And so that’s very much a part of who she is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Susan, we were just talking before this little thread. We were talking about the rise of the Tea Party movement, of these right-wing movements that came out of the passage of the ACA. This is Trump. This is MAGA. How did Pelosi respond when these right-wing movements began to grow?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> They began to grow and, of course, they targeted her. She became a great fundraising tool for some of these farther-right groups that began to grow.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think she found them flummoxing because Pelosi’s agenda was to get some stuff done and agree with what she wanted to get done or not, but that was what she wanted to do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the idea that there were these people running for office at the other end of the political spectrum who were getting elected with the promise that the government would not do things and would peel back on things it was already doing was something I think she found very hard to understand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Barbara writes, “I loved it when Nancy Pelosi ripped up Trump’s State of the Union speech in front of everyone during his first administration.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Scott, we have a clip of you asking Speaker Pelosi about why she went forward with the impeachment of Trump. This is the first time when she knew it was going to fail in the Senate. Let’s hear that clip.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Why did you think it was important to go ahead and really start a process that you knew ultimately you would not?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> We did succeed. We impeached him twice. But you think that we should be guided by what the Senate might do? You think that the president has committed impeachable offenses of the highest magnitude and we shouldn’t do that because we don’t know what some senators are going to do? No.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> You can hear the contempt in her voice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> In her voice. She is not a fan of the Senate, I can tell you that. How did it feel to be on the other end of that pushback in that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Oh, that was nothing. I mean, you know, that was fairly mild. I mean, I, you know, and that’s, that’s just Pelosi. You know, she, she’s really — she has a position. She, she will, you know, sort of undercut the premise of your question if she doesn’t like it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, she’s, she is very focused on the House. The House’s responsibility is, you know, oversight, and they have the power to impeach. And that’s what they did.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And she wasn’t about looking down the road to see whether it would pass the Senate, which I’m sure she knew it wouldn’t. But she wanted to go, you know, maybe go down in history as having, quote-unquote, “done the right thing,” to try to hold the president accountable when he had committed — that was the phone call with the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelensky, you know, kind of a quid pro quo, military aid for investigating Hunter Biden and Joe Biden.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, you know, she just saw that as her role. That one was — that one was a relatively mild brushback.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> You know, and the fact is, she had pushed back on impeachment for a long time. There was a lot of energy in the Democratic caucus to impeach Trump that she held back on because she thought that politically it was not going to succeed and that was going to carry some costs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But once that phone call came out, and then the second time around, after the January 6 riot, she felt, I think, she didn’t have any choice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Let’s go back to the phones. Val in San Francisco, you’re on the air.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Val:\u003c/strong> Hi, I’m a San Franciscan, born and raised, and I’m about the same age as Nancy Pelosi, but maybe a little younger.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I remember her from so long ago, and in the ’80s and ’90s there was — I was very ill, and I needed medical care. And I got it because Nancy Pelosi had a childhood health care initiative for children, and I was — and a lot of other people were able to get care because of that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you know, that reminds me of another story that was in our first episode. Mike Schriver, who supported Harry Britt in that first campaign, but got to know Pelosi and went to her office with a friend who needed to get onto some experimental drug treatment trial because he had AIDS.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And she also helped him. Mike Schriver, and he has some very poignant stories about her. I still am in touch with him to this day, and he really credits Nancy Pelosi and the Ryan White CARE Act for his being alive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> As you heard there, we are talking about the legacy of Speaker Nancy Pelosi, four decades representing San Francisco. Lesley McClurg, I’m sitting in today for Mina Kim, and you are listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We have lots of comments coming in here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Nancy writes, “My favorite Pelosi moment is her standing up to the San Francisco Archbishop’s announcement that she was prohibited from receiving Holy Communion. She was dignified, and he looked like a foolish misogynist.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Let’s see, Roger writes, “Here lies the difference between corporate liberals and the progressive culture that was snuffed out of San Francisco and the neighborhoods like the Mission that were intentionally knocked down and replaced like SoMa and the North Mission. Pelosi and Feinstein’s massive corporate money led that battle.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Is that true, Scott?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Which part of that? I mean, fair, fair. Yeah, I mean, she believes — she talks all the time about Citizens United, the Supreme Court decision that allowed an influx, a huge influx of money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But she also has raised a boatload of money, one of the most prolific fundraisers in congressional history. And there are people who don’t like some of the places she’s gotten money from.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I think her point is, look, we’re not going to tie one hand behind our backs just because we don’t have all the money. We’re not going to be disadvantaged. We can try to change the system, but this is the system. And we’re going to have to play in that arena.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Susan, big question for you here. I mean, Pelosi is going to be gone by the first of the year. Where does the Democratic Party leadership go from here?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> That is a big question, and that is not determined because there is a division in the Democratic Party now between the energy of some of these very progressive voices that have succeeded in Democratic primaries from Michigan to Maine, and of course in California as well, and more moderate Democrats, more centrist Democrats who worry that the Democrats will blow what looks like a nicely set table for the 2028 presidential election if they nominate someone too far left to appeal in some of the more conservative heartland states.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is — we are at the beginning of a war over the direction of the Democrats. And this is a war that will be waged without Nancy Pelosi on the front lines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> But, Padmini, what else is in the series? What are you guys gonna tackle?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Padmini Raghunath:\u003c/strong> In these final episodes. So I mentioned that our third episode, which is coming out next Wednesday, is about the Affordable Care Act and sort of the seeds of the Tea Party movement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And of course, as history comes closer to us, it starts to feel like a pointillist painting or something. It’s harder to see it. And so we just kind of had to be honest about that. And hearing some of the criticisms also coming in today, we weren’t afraid to shy away from that either.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the fourth episode addresses something that our producer, Ariella, heard a lot when she went and did Vox in D.C., which was — we are addressing the ban on stock trading in the fourth episode, and these sort of internal divisions that Susan Page just described, in addition to the impeachment in episode four and January 6th, which stacked episode.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Sounds good. Lots of coverage.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Padmini Raghunath:\u003c/strong> And then the fifth episode is really, um, I would say kind of — it’s about you, Scott, a little bit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> You know, I mean, you know, our careers in some ways overlapped. I very well — I mean, not to compare myself or my legacy to hers, but, you know, I’ve seen that first campaign and so you’re kind of putting it into context.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re now involved in a very vigorous election to replace her. You know, she and I kind of had a contentious back-and-forth about that. And so it’s a reflection, I think, of, you know, her legacy, how she got there, where she’s leaving the Democratic Party, which, as Susan Page just said, is kind of in a bit of a civil war right now, her role in that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, she’s definitely been concerned about, you know, some of the nominees in the Democratic Party, like, you know, Abdul El-Sayed in Michigan. And so we’re going to find out in November, you know, how does a more progressive candidate fare in a place like Michigan?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So some of those questions about 2028 are going to maybe not resolve, but we’ll have more data points. And so the fifth episode talks a little bit about some of those things as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Padmini Raghunath:\u003c/strong> I would just jump in and add really quickly. I think it’s also about certainty versus uncertainty, like the role of a politician versus the role of a journalist, which, you know, for her to have accomplished what she did, she had to be certain that it was going to happen, even if maybe she had her private doubts. That’s just what she had to do and project.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And our job is to ask questions about that. So, that’s maybe a little tease.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> And analyze how things worked out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Given that we are, though, on the precipice of this election, what’s happening? Who’s running? Give us a little summary of who’s up for her seat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So the primary was interesting. There were three candidates, including Shoykat Chakrabarti, who was AOC’s chief of staff. And right before the primary, Pelosi endorsed Connie Chan, in part, I think, because she really wanted to make sure Chakrabarti wasn’t there. She was one of many people who got him fired, basically, from his job in Congress.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so she succeeded and, you know, Chan did very well. So now it’s Chan versus Scott Wiener, state senator from San Francisco, openly gay. He finished first in the primary by quite a few points.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Pelosi has really put her foot on the pedal. She’s helping Connie Chan with fundraising, boosting her campaign in many, many ways. She’s even calling some of Scott Wiener’s endorsers, trying to get them to change their mind, Dolores Huerta in particular.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so it’s not so much a generational question, I think, because they’re — Chan’s a little younger than Wiener, but they’re both under 60.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I think it’s going to be really about who can get things done. What kind of person do you want to follow in the footsteps of Nancy Pelosi, who has been a legendary representative for San Francisco for the past four decades? What are the qualities you’re looking for? What are qualities Democrats feel are needed right now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Big shoes to fill there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You just heard from Scott Shafer again. His new podcast’s second episode dropped today, three more to come. The title is \u003cem>The Speaker\u003c/em>. His producer — or editor, I should say — is Padmini Raghunath. She is also obviously involved in that, \u003cem>The Speaker\u003c/em>. And Susan Page also joined us, Washington Bureau Chief for \u003cem>USA Today\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks so much for listening. Have a great day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Announcer:\u003c/strong> Funds for the production of \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> are provided by the Generosity Family Fund and the members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Rep. Nancy Pelosi will retire following the 2026 midterm elections, bringing to end her almost 40-year career in Congress. In a new five-part podcast series, “The Speaker,” KQED’s Scott Shafer embarked on an ambitious reporting project to capture the story of the first woman Speaker of the House. Shafer traces how Pelosi rose from unlikely Congressional candidate to one of the most powerful women in American politics. Shafer and Pelosi biographer Susan Page joins us to talk about Pelosi’s political legacy and where the Democratic Party goes from here.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Lesley McClurg. I’m in today for Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Nancy Pelosi. After nearly four decades representing San Francisco in Congress, she is preparing to leave office. She was the first woman elected Speaker of the House and obviously became one of the most consequential figures in American politics.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We are joined by two journalists who know her story inside and out. Our own Scott Shafer, who is senior politics correspondent here at KQED and the host of a new podcast about Nancy Pelosi called \u003cem>The Speaker\u003c/em>. Welcome, Scott.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> We’re also joined by Susan Page. She is Washington Bureau Chief for \u003cem>USA Today\u003c/em> and author of \u003cem>Madam Speaker: Nancy Pelosi and the Lessons of Power\u003c/em>. Welcome, Susan.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Scott, you sat down with Nancy for five interviews for this series, for this new podcast series, and you noted that she tends to push back. Sometimes she’s not an easy interview. She’s maybe even a little reticent to talk about her legacy, even though that was the point of these interviews. What was the dynamic? What was it like in the room with her?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then probably the most contentious conversation I had with her was over her endorsement of Connie Chan in the race to replace her in the congressional race. And, you know, we’re journalists, right? We ask questions, and she really didn’t like the questions. She didn’t like being questioned, her judgment being questioned. You know, and she let me know that in no uncertain terms. And she told me at one point, “You sound like the Chronicle or the Examiner, and they’re irrelevant.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then probably the most contentious conversation I had with her was over her endorsement of Connie Chan in the race to replace her in the congressional race. And, you know, we’re journalists, right? We ask questions, and she really didn’t like the questions. She didn’t like being questioned, her judgment being questioned. You know, and she let me know that in no uncertain terms. And she told me at one point, “You sound like the Chronicle or the Examiner, and they’re irrelevant.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I heard that. It was a great little clip. Susan, what about you? Was there a particular contentious moment in the — I think you sat with her for 11 interviews when you wrote her biography.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I heard that. It was a great little clip. Susan, what about you? Was there a particular contentious moment in the — I think you sat with her for 11 interviews when you wrote her biography.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> You know, she’s such a tough interview because she is so accustomed to being in control and because she has talking points. It’s really hard to get her off the things that she has said before and that she intends to say.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> You know, she’s such a tough interview because she is so accustomed to being in control and because she has talking points. It’s really hard to get her off the things that she has said before and that she intends to say.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I was grateful for the interviews that I had, but we had some contentious moments. At one point, when I was asking her some questions about a scandal involving her brother when he was young, she did not think this was an appropriate topic for us to be talking about. She made that clear.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I was grateful for the interviews that I had, but we had some contentious moments. At one point, when I was asking her some questions about a scandal involving her brother when he was young, she did not think this was an appropriate topic for us to be talking about. She made that clear.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And there was one particular interview where she had just come back from a very combative meeting with the Squad, with those very liberal, then-new members of Congress who were giving her some trouble. And at that point, she wasn’t mad at me, but she was fired up about them. And I’ve got to say, that turned out to be the best interview I had with her.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And there was one particular interview where she had just come back from a very combative meeting with the Squad, with those very liberal, then-new members of Congress who were giving her some trouble. And at that point, she wasn’t mad at me, but she was fired up about them. And I’ve got to say, that turned out to be the best interview I had with her.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Scott, did you find, as you were doing this work, that there was a particular theme that ran through her career?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Scott, did you find, as you were doing this work, that there was a particular theme that ran through her career?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think we’ve kind of alluded to it. I mean, her personal tenacity and discipline, her focus. Her phrase is basically just, “Win, baby.” She is focused on winning, whether it is getting a bill passed or blocking a nomination or impeaching a president or getting your preferred candidate elected in the race to replace you. She is all in.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think we’ve kind of alluded to it. I mean, her personal tenacity and discipline, her focus. Her phrase is basically just, “Win, baby.” She is focused on winning, whether it is getting a bill passed or blocking a nomination or impeaching a president or getting your preferred candidate elected in the race to replace you. She is all in.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I don’t think she does anything half-heartedly. And so that, I think you see that throughout her entire career, her entire life, really, including when she was younger.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I don’t think she does anything half-heartedly. And so that, I think you see that throughout her entire career, her entire life, really, including when she was younger.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Is she fierce or likable in that role? Both. That’s the thing about Nancy Pelosi. She’s been described as a steel fist in a Gucci glove or the velvet hammer — what a pickier metaphor. She is both very gracious and charming.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Is she fierce or likable in that role? Both. That’s the thing about Nancy Pelosi. She’s been described as a steel fist in a Gucci glove or the velvet hammer — what a pickier metaphor. She is both very gracious and charming.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think one of the secrets to her rise was her relationships with her caucus. And not just her caucus, but people in general. Gets to know people, their families, their birthdays, their anniversaries, when there’s a death in the family, a divorce, and that personal touch. While she is, yes, she is fierce on your behalf as well as against you if she doesn’t like, you know, where you’re coming from.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think one of the secrets to her rise was her relationships with her caucus. And not just her caucus, but people in general. Gets to know people, their families, their birthdays, their anniversaries, when there’s a death in the family, a divorce, and that personal touch. While she is, yes, she is fierce on your behalf as well as against you if she doesn’t like, you know, where you’re coming from.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Susan, what do you think is at the heart of her legacy? Four decades.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Susan, what do you think is at the heart of her legacy? Four decades.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> Four decades. Well, of course, one thing that will be in the first line of every obituary will be that she was the first woman Speaker of the House. She was, and I think remains, the most powerful woman in the history of the American government.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> Four decades. Well, of course, one thing that will be in the first line of every obituary will be that she was the first woman Speaker of the House. She was, and I think remains, the most powerful woman in the history of the American government.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, some would say Kamala Harris was higher ranking because she was vice president, but if you’re looking at political power to get things done, there’s no comparison between those two roles.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now, some would say Kamala Harris was higher ranking because she was vice president, but if you’re looking at political power to get things done, there’s no comparison between those two roles.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think she is also an architect of the Affordable Care Act, which was the greatest expansion of health care coverage in a generation, and just generally a force to be reckoned with, including her ability to help lead Democrats to majorities in the House, which enabled her to do all those other things.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think she is also an architect of the Affordable Care Act, which was the greatest expansion of health care coverage in a generation, and just generally a force to be reckoned with, including her ability to help lead Democrats to majorities in the House, which enabled her to do all those other things.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Scott, you were here for the last three decades covering government and politics in San Francisco, and you watched Gavin Newsom and Kamala Harris rise, their careers going all the way up to the national stage. What is unique about San Francisco that kind of forges these political candidates like Nancy Pelosi?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Scott, you were here for the last three decades covering government and politics in San Francisco, and you watched Gavin Newsom and Kamala Harris rise, their careers going all the way up to the national stage. What is unique about San Francisco that kind of forges these political candidates like Nancy Pelosi?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> You know, I think San Francisco is a city of about 800,000 people, and it’s been punching above its weight in politics for decades, going all the way back to Phil Burton, you know, who was also a powerhouse representing San Francisco in Congress.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> You know, I think San Francisco is a city of about 800,000 people, and it’s been punching above its weight in politics for decades, going all the way back to Phil Burton, you know, who was also a powerhouse representing San Francisco in Congress.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>To me, I — it’s several things. You know, it’s being described, San Francisco politics, as a knife fight in a phone booth. Fifty shades of blue. It’s mostly all Democratic, relatively liberal, maybe a little left of center, a little right of center by San Francisco standards.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>To me, I — it’s several things. You know, it’s being described, San Francisco politics, as a knife fight in a phone booth. Fifty shades of blue. It’s mostly all Democratic, relatively liberal, maybe a little left of center, a little right of center by San Francisco standards.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And if you could emerge from that cauldron where you have to go around and talk to the Chinese American Democratic Club and the Raoul Wallenberg Democratic Club and the Arab American Democratic Club and the environmental group, you know, and on and on, and on, you learn how to talk with different constituencies, how to build coalitions, how to take incoming fire.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And if you could emerge from that cauldron where you have to go around and talk to the Chinese American Democratic Club and the Raoul Wallenberg Democratic Club and the Arab American Democratic Club and the environmental group, you know, and on and on, and on, you learn how to talk with different constituencies, how to build coalitions, how to take incoming fire.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And if you can emerge from that environment, as Dianne Feinstein did, Gavin Newsom did, obviously Nancy Pelosi, Barbara Boxer, to a certain extent, although she was more Marin, you’re kind of prepared for battle.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And if you can emerge from that environment, as Dianne Feinstein did, Gavin Newsom did, obviously Nancy Pelosi, Barbara Boxer, to a certain extent, although she was more Marin, you’re kind of prepared for battle.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Uh, and so it really, it’s like — it, it like being on the farm team, you know, and you’ve really learned how to be the, like, best pitcher or whatever hitter or whatever it might be. Uh, so if you emerge from San Francisco, it was like, wow, you’ve been tested.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Uh, and so it really, it’s like — it, it like being on the farm team, you know, and you’ve really learned how to be the, like, best pitcher or whatever hitter or whatever it might be. Uh, so if you emerge from San Francisco, it was like, wow, you’ve been tested.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I love that metaphor. In the very first episode of the series that came out, I think, last Wednesday — our second episode comes out today — so in that first episode, you focus on the 1987 special election. And this is following Sala Burton’s death. Tell us who is Sala Burton. You mentioned the Burton family just a minute ago. And what was her relationship to Nancy Pelosi?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I love that metaphor. In the very first episode of the series that came out, I think, last Wednesday — our second episode comes out today — so in that first episode, you focus on the 1987 special election. And this is following Sala Burton’s death. Tell us who is Sala Burton. You mentioned the Burton family just a minute ago. And what was her relationship to Nancy Pelosi?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so Sala Burton was married to Phil Burton. Phil Burton almost became the first, you know, Speaker of the House from California. You know, he came just like a couple of votes short of being majority leader, and he was a firebrand. He’s largely responsible for protecting the Northern California coast, the Golden Gate Recreation Act. And he was sort of that architect of coalition politics, bringing in gay people and Asian Americans and labor and Italian Americans and all the rest.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so Sala Burton was married to Phil Burton. Phil Burton almost became the first, you know, Speaker of the House from California. You know, he came just like a couple of votes short of being majority leader, and he was a firebrand. He’s largely responsible for protecting the Northern California coast, the Golden Gate Recreation Act. And he was sort of that architect of coalition politics, bringing in gay people and Asian Americans and labor and Italian Americans and all the rest.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so Sala Burton was married to him, and Phil Burton died suddenly, I think he was 56 years old, of an aneurysm, which was shocking to everybody. And so Sala Burton, as often happens, the widow, took his place and won election and then re-election. But then she got cancer and was dying.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so Sala Burton was married to him, and Phil Burton died suddenly, I think he was 56 years old, of an aneurysm, which was shocking to everybody. And so Sala Burton, as often happens, the widow, took his place and won election and then re-election. But then she got cancer and was dying.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And on her deathbed, she summoned John Burton, her brother-in-law, and also Nancy Pelosi and others. And she said to them, “I want Nancy Pelosi to take my place.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And on her deathbed, she summoned John Burton, her brother-in-law, and also Nancy Pelosi and others. And she said to them, “I want Nancy Pelosi to take my place.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And that was shocking. In fact, John Burton told us years later that when she said, “I want Nancy to take my place,” they thought she was talking about Nancy Walker, who was a liberal member of the Board of Supervisors.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And that was shocking. In fact, John Burton told us years later that when she said, “I want Nancy to take my place,” they thought she was talking about Nancy Walker, who was a liberal member of the Board of Supervisors.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It was not at all in their vision, but Sala Burton saw something in Nancy Pelosi that I think more people came to see after she rose in politics.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It was not at all in their vision, but Sala Burton saw something in Nancy Pelosi that I think more people came to see after she rose in politics.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And what was Nancy Pelosi’s response to that?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And what was Nancy Pelosi’s response to that?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Well, she said to us, you know, Sala said to me, “I want you to run for my seat, and I want you to tell me right now,” because she was very sick.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Well, she said to us, you know, Sala said to me, “I want you to run for my seat, and I want you to tell me right now,” because she was very sick.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And Pelosi said, you know, I asked her, “Why had you never thought of running for office?” And she said, “Well, it was like, why had I never gone skydiving?” You know, it’s just — no, no, no. And no, she would work on the inside of politics. Not like she was not familiar with politics, but being the out-front elected official had not occurred to her.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And Pelosi said, you know, I asked her, “Why had you never thought of running for office?” And she said, “Well, it was like, why had I never gone skydiving?” You know, it’s just — no, no, no. And no, she would work on the inside of politics. Not like she was not familiar with politics, but being the out-front elected official had not occurred to her.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So she had to ask her one remaining daughter at home. She had six kids. And, uh, her daughter, you know, Alexandra, was a teenager at that time, and she said, “What teenage girl wouldn’t want her mother out of the house most of the week?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So she had to ask her one remaining daughter at home. She had six kids. And, uh, her daughter, you know, Alexandra, was a teenager at that time, and she said, “What teenage girl wouldn’t want her mother out of the house most of the week?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Padmini Raghunath:\u003c/strong> Go do it, Mama. Get out there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Padmini Raghunath:\u003c/strong> Go do it, Mama. Get out there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Get out there. Get a life, she said, literally. And so that’s what she had to get the sign-off from her family, but then she was good to go.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Get out there. Get a life, she said, literally. And so that’s what she had to get the sign-off from her family, but then she was good to go.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And she entered a really intense contest. She was up against Harry Britt, who was another left-leaning candidate. And he had the backing of Harvey Milk’s political movement and the very deeply organized gay community at the time, which was reeling from the AIDS epidemic. Let’s hear a clip from Britt at the —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And she entered a really intense contest. She was up against Harry Britt, who was another left-leaning candidate. And he had the backing of Harvey Milk’s political movement and the very deeply organized gay community at the time, which was reeling from the AIDS epidemic. Let’s hear a clip from Britt at the —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Harry Britt:\u003c/strong> So I think it’s legitimate for us to point out that the people who care the most about AIDS, and certainly the gay community, which cares in a passionate way about AIDS, is very united behind my candidacy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Harry Britt:\u003c/strong> So I think it’s legitimate for us to point out that the people who care the most about AIDS, and certainly the gay community, which cares in a passionate way about AIDS, is very united behind my candidacy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> But was the gay community skeptical or behind Pelosi? How did they feel about Pelosi?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> But was the gay community skeptical or behind Pelosi? How did they feel about Pelosi?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> You know, there was a split, but I would say, if I had to guess, I would say it was two to one, you know, for Harry Britt. There were some more moderate folks in the gay community, you know, maybe a little more business-oriented, who supported Nancy Pelosi.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> You know, there was a split, but I would say, if I had to guess, I would say it was two to one, you know, for Harry Britt. There were some more moderate folks in the gay community, you know, maybe a little more business-oriented, who supported Nancy Pelosi.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And she had key support from the Burton machine, from Art Agnos and Willie Brown and Phil Burton, John Burton, and she had a very savvy campaign operation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And she had key support from the Burton machine, from Art Agnos and Willie Brown and Phil Burton, John Burton, and she had a very savvy campaign operation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But, you know, the gay community wanted their own representative, especially during the AIDS epidemic. We had, you know, President Reagan. George Deukmejian was governor, two Republicans, and they wanted somebody to go back to D.C. and fight for them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But, you know, the gay community wanted their own representative, especially during the AIDS epidemic. We had, you know, President Reagan. George Deukmejian was governor, two Republicans, and they wanted somebody to go back to D.C. and fight for them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And they didn’t see — they didn’t know Nancy Pelosi and didn’t think she was the right person to do that. But she promised that that’s what she would do. But they still thought, you know, Harry Britt is the one who’s really going to understand what we need as LGBTQ people in the district.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And they didn’t see — they didn’t know Nancy Pelosi and didn’t think she was the right person to do that. But she promised that that’s what she would do. But they still thought, you know, Harry Britt is the one who’s really going to understand what we need as LGBTQ people in the district.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And that’s largely who they voted for, but it wasn’t unanimous by any means.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And that’s largely who they voted for, but it wasn’t unanimous by any means.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Let’s hear a clip from a televised 1987 debate that was hosted right here at KQED. It’s featured in the first episode of your series. And this is where Pelosi faces attacks for self-funding and for being a socialite and for being an establishment pick.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Let’s hear a clip from a televised 1987 debate that was hosted right here at KQED. It’s featured in the first episode of your series. And this is where Pelosi faces attacks for self-funding and for being a socialite and for being an establishment pick.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Harry Britt:\u003c/strong> And what we have is, we have in this election somebody saying, “The machine backs me. I’ve got a million bucks. I don’t live in your district. I’ve never met many of your slobs, but I’m going to be your new leader because I got bucks and I’m powerful.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Harry Britt:\u003c/strong> And what we have is, we have in this election somebody saying, “The machine backs me. I’ve got a million bucks. I don’t live in your district. I’ve never met many of your slobs, but I’m going to be your new leader because I got bucks and I’m powerful.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Moderator:\u003c/strong> How can she relate to people like me, a single parent, working mother, or somebody else?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Moderator:\u003c/strong> How can she relate to people like me, a single parent, working mother, or somebody else?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Moderator:\u003c/strong> Let’s let Nancy answer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Moderator:\u003c/strong> Let’s let Nancy answer.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> I don’t think you have to be sick to be a doctor or poor to understand the problems of the poor. I have spent my life committed to the ideals of the Democratic Party.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> I don’t think you have to be sick to be a doctor or poor to understand the problems of the poor. I have spent my life committed to the ideals of the Democratic Party.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> We are talking about the legacy of Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who you just heard there in a 1987 debate that happened right here at KQED. We are joined by Scott Shafer, he is senior politics correspondent, and Susan Page is Washington Bureau Chief of \u003cem>USA Today\u003c/em>. We’ll be right back after this break.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> We are talking about the legacy of Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who you just heard there in a 1987 debate that happened right here at KQED. We are joined by Scott Shafer, he is senior politics correspondent, and Susan Page is Washington Bureau Chief of \u003cem>USA Today\u003c/em>. We’ll be right back after this break.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’d love to hear from you. Do you have a favorite moment or a favorite memory of Nancy Pelosi? Give us a call right now and tell us about it. 866-733-6786. Again, that’s 866-733-6786. We’ll be right back after this break.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>We’d love to hear from you. Do you have a favorite moment or a favorite memory of Nancy Pelosi? Give us a call right now and tell us about it. 866-733-6786. Again, that’s 866-733-6786. We’ll be right back after this break.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. We’re talking about the legacy of Speaker Nancy Pelosi. She is about to retire after four decades representing San Francisco in Congress.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. We’re talking about the legacy of Speaker Nancy Pelosi. She is about to retire after four decades representing San Francisco in Congress.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We are joined by Scott Shafer. He’s senior politics correspondent right here at KQED. And Susan Page is Washington Bureau Chief for \u003cem>USA Today\u003c/em>. She’s also author of \u003cem>Madam Speaker: Nancy Pelosi and the Lessons of Power\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>We are joined by Scott Shafer. He’s senior politics correspondent right here at KQED. And Susan Page is Washington Bureau Chief for \u003cem>USA Today\u003c/em>. She’s also author of \u003cem>Madam Speaker: Nancy Pelosi and the Lessons of Power\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’d love to hear from you. Tell us about your favorite moment or maybe your favorite memory from Nancy Pelosi’s career. What do you think will be Pelosi’s legacy in your mind?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>We’d love to hear from you. Tell us about your favorite moment or maybe your favorite memory from Nancy Pelosi’s career. What do you think will be Pelosi’s legacy in your mind?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You can email your comments, your questions to \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a> or find us on any of the social platforms, Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram. We’re at KQED Forum. Or you can just give us a call now at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>You can email your comments, your questions to \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a> or find us on any of the social platforms, Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram. We’re at KQED Forum. Or you can just give us a call now at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We were just talking there about the special election in 1987. Pelosi outspent the other 13 candidates combined, and she invested more than $200,000 of her own money. She drew on political action committee money, and she argued that raising funds actually offered her political independence. Let’s hear a clip.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We were just talking there about the special election in 1987. Pelosi outspent the other 13 candidates combined, and she invested more than $200,000 of her own money. She drew on political action committee money, and she argued that raising funds actually offered her political independence. Let’s hear a clip.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Corporate money goes to the Republicans. That’s just the way it is. I mean, I’d probably raise billions of dollars, a couple billion dollars, if it’s not in favor of corporate America, you can just imagine, and certainly not of Wall Street.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Corporate money goes to the Republicans. That’s just the way it is. I mean, I’d probably raise billions of dollars, a couple billion dollars, if it’s not in favor of corporate America, you can just imagine, and certainly not of Wall Street.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I completely, totally disagree that the Democratic Party is dominated by corporate money. It isn’t. And certainly the Democrats vote for gun violence prevention. The Republicans do not. The Democrats vote for protecting the environment. The other people are in the pocket of the fossil fuel industry, as well as the gun industry.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I completely, totally disagree that the Democratic Party is dominated by corporate money. It isn’t. And certainly the Democrats vote for gun violence prevention. The Republicans do not. The Democrats vote for protecting the environment. The other people are in the pocket of the fossil fuel industry, as well as the gun industry.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So it is a big difference, but we haven’t made that clear. And every poll shows, oh, they think we’re both sort of the same.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So it is a big difference, but we haven’t made that clear. And every poll shows, oh, they think we’re both sort of the same.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Susan, does that pretty much sum it up, or did her perspective on political money ever shift?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Susan, does that pretty much sum it up, or did her perspective on political money ever shift?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> You know, political money has been one of the sources of her power from the start. And of course, even before she was even a candidate, she was a considerably adept fundraiser, including for the Senate campaign committee. And so that is something she has never apologized for, raising money.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> You know, political money has been one of the sources of her power from the start. And of course, even before she was even a candidate, she was a considerably adept fundraiser, including for the Senate campaign committee. And so that is something she has never apologized for, raising money.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>She’s skilled at raising money from big donors. It was a new generation of politicians that demonstrated how, in an age of social media, you could do that with small donors, Bernie Sanders being a good example of that. But this was a source of Pelosi’s power.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>She’s skilled at raising money from big donors. It was a new generation of politicians that demonstrated how, in an age of social media, you could do that with small donors, Bernie Sanders being a good example of that. But this was a source of Pelosi’s power.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Let’s see if I could just say one more thing that you had asked Scott about why, despite her history in politics, including her family history, she had said she never considered running until Sala Burton suggested it in 1987.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Let’s see if I could just say one more thing that you had asked Scott about why, despite her history in politics, including her family history, she had said she never considered running until Sala Burton suggested it in 1987.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I would say one reason is that she was a member of the Silent Generation, born in 1940, toward the end of the Silent Generation. No expectation that women would run for office.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I would say one reason is that she was a member of the Silent Generation, born in 1940, toward the end of the Silent Generation. No expectation that women would run for office.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Her father, the mayor of Baltimore, wanted his sons to run for mayor, but it never occurred to either him or his daughter that she might be a candidate for office. So in that way, she really reflects such big changes, such huge shifts in the American political system.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Her father, the mayor of Baltimore, wanted his sons to run for mayor, but it never occurred to either him or his daughter that she might be a candidate for office. So in that way, she really reflects such big changes, such huge shifts in the American political system.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> David writes, “If the Democrats had their act together, we would have elected Nancy Pelosi as president of the USA.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> David writes, “If the Democrats had their act together, we would have elected Nancy Pelosi as president of the USA.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Let’s go back and just wrap up that 1987 race. Obviously, she won. How did she win, Scott? And how did the gay activists at the time take the loss of Britt?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Let’s go back and just wrap up that 1987 race. Obviously, she won. How did she win, Scott? And how did the gay activists at the time take the loss of Britt?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Well, she had a great campaign team. The late Clint Reilly managed it. Marshall Ganz, who was a very skilled organizer, has a history with the United Farm Workers, was part of it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Well, she had a great campaign team. The late Clint Reilly managed it. Marshall Ganz, who was a very skilled organizer, has a history with the United Farm Workers, was part of it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And they divided up the city very strategically into groups. They sent separate mailers to different communities. They even quietly slipped some messages to Republican voters. And they knew that the preponderance of the gay vote was going to go to Harry Britt. So they had to figure out how do they piece together a majority from the rest of the city, which they did. But not by a lot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And they divided up the city very strategically into groups. They sent separate mailers to different communities. They even quietly slipped some messages to Republican voters. And they knew that the preponderance of the gay vote was going to go to Harry Britt. So they had to figure out how do they piece together a majority from the rest of the city, which they did. But not by a lot.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And, you know, the gay community was skeptical of her, but when she won the primary, there would then be a runoff in June. But in between the primary and the general in June, she met with gay activists, and not just, you know, as we say, the expensive-sweater crowd, but, you know, really some of ACT UP, some of the more radical members of the community.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And, you know, the gay community was skeptical of her, but when she won the primary, there would then be a runoff in June. But in between the primary and the general in June, she met with gay activists, and not just, you know, as we say, the expensive-sweater crowd, but, you know, really some of ACT UP, some of the more radical members of the community.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I don’t know if they were won over, but I think they were impressed by that first meeting. We have some people like Tom Ammiano in the podcast in that first episode saying that tears were shed by her as she talked with them about what their needs were in the middle of this epidemic.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I don’t know if they were won over, but I think they were impressed by that first meeting. We have some people like Tom Ammiano in the podcast in that first episode saying that tears were shed by her as she talked with them about what their needs were in the middle of this epidemic.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I think it took a while, but certainly once that first term in office, the very first thing she did when she was sworn in, the first speech she gave on the House floor, mentioned getting more funding for AIDS.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I think it took a while, but certainly once that first term in office, the very first thing she did when she was sworn in, the first speech she gave on the House floor, mentioned getting more funding for AIDS.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Let’s go ahead and hear a clip from there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Let’s go ahead and hear a clip from there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> For peace, for environmental protection, for equal rights, for rights of individual freedom. And now we must take the leadership, of course, in the crisis of AIDS. And I look forward to working with you on that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> For peace, for environmental protection, for equal rights, for rights of individual freedom. And now we must take the leadership, of course, in the crisis of AIDS. And I look forward to working with you on that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Susan, how big a deal was it that she brought up AIDS there?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Susan, how big a deal was it that she brought up AIDS there?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> You know, it’s easy to forget the stigma around AIDS at that point. So 1987, it was not until 1987 that President Reagan gave his first speech about AIDS, even though the disease had emerged six years earlier.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> You know, it’s easy to forget the stigma around AIDS at that point. So 1987, it was not until 1987 that President Reagan gave his first speech about AIDS, even though the disease had emerged six years earlier.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And when Pelosi came here and gave her first speech on the House floor after being sworn in and talked about AIDS, it was a time when there were only a handful of members of Congress willing to say the word.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And when Pelosi came here and gave her first speech on the House floor after being sworn in and talked about AIDS, it was a time when there were only a handful of members of Congress willing to say the word.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And in that way, that is the early attention she got here. A freshman member of Congress of the House, big deal in Washington. I mean, not a big deal in Washington, one who was willing to tackle an issue that most of them avoided, that was kind of a big deal.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And in that way, that is the early attention she got here. A freshman member of Congress of the House, big deal in Washington. I mean, not a big deal in Washington, one who was willing to tackle an issue that most of them avoided, that was kind of a big deal.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Russ writes, “Nancy Pelosi is an amazing woman worthy of respect and a career that merits celebration. But let’s not anoint her as a saint. For example, a strong argument could be made that when she defended her heavy investments in tech companies, including Tesla and Apple, even as she presided as Speaker of the House and controlled legislation that affected those communities, she was normalizing corruption and paving the way for the unbridled corruption of Donald Trump.”\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Russ writes, “Nancy Pelosi is an amazing woman worthy of respect and a career that merits celebration. But let’s not anoint her as a saint. For example, a strong argument could be made that when she defended her heavy investments in tech companies, including Tesla and Apple, even as she presided as Speaker of the House and controlled legislation that affected those communities, she was normalizing corruption and paving the way for the unbridled corruption of Donald Trump.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Do you agree with that critique, Susan?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Do you agree with that critique, Susan?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> I think that’s definitely a point of vulnerability for her. She resisted the idea of limits on stock sales by members of Congress and their family at a time that the need for that became more and more apparent by what we saw some members of Congress do.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> I think that’s definitely a point of vulnerability for her. She resisted the idea of limits on stock sales by members of Congress and their family at a time that the need for that became more and more apparent by what we saw some members of Congress do.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> The second episode of the series focuses on Baltimore’s Little Italy and her parents. That was Mayor Tommy D’Alessandro and Annunciata, or Big Nancy, her mom was named.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> The second episode of the series focuses on Baltimore’s Little Italy and her parents. That was Mayor Tommy D’Alessandro and Annunciata, or Big Nancy, her mom was named.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And Susan, you spoke with Rahm Emanuel and he told you that she is 99% D’Alessandro and 1% Pelosi. Excuse me, that should have said — I should have — that was Scott. Scott said that, my bad there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And Susan, you spoke with Rahm Emanuel and he told you that she is 99% D’Alessandro and 1% Pelosi. Excuse me, that should have said — I should have — that was Scott. Scott said that, my bad there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> He might have said it’s Susan also.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> He might have said it’s Susan also.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> How would you say her parents, these characters, influenced her career in that statement there, you know, 99% D’Alessandro?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> How would you say her parents, these characters, influenced her career in that statement there, you know, 99% D’Alessandro?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, it was the family business, you know, hanging out with her mother, Big Nancy. You know, and watching her. Susan Page wrote about this, and I can’t recommend her book too much, \u003cem>Madam Speaker\u003c/em>, terrific. It was super helpful to us in putting the podcast together. It’s a great read with some amazing stories.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, it was the family business, you know, hanging out with her mother, Big Nancy. You know, and watching her. Susan Page wrote about this, and I can’t recommend her book too much, \u003cem>Madam Speaker\u003c/em>, terrific. It was super helpful to us in putting the podcast together. It’s a great read with some amazing stories.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But, you know, she talked, Susan, in her book about the favor file, which was basically keeping track of what have you done for constituents? What do they owe you? You know, and then we got election time. Okay, remember that time we, you know, got your, you know, brother-in-law into the hospital or whatever it might be.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But, you know, she talked, Susan, in her book about the favor file, which was basically keeping track of what have you done for constituents? What do they owe you? You know, and then we got election time. Okay, remember that time we, you know, got your, you know, brother-in-law into the hospital or whatever it might be.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so that, you know, management of the favor file was really critical. And she learned the importance of loyalty. You know, you got to dance with the one that brought you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so that, you know, management of the favor file was really critical. And she learned the importance of loyalty. You know, you got to dance with the one that brought you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so I think she just really — and just bare-knuckles political style. I mean, her father was involved. There had been a number of kind of like — I don’t want to say scandals, but there were some questionable issues around the way he ran the city on occasion. Susan can tell you more about that, but, you know, I think that is where she learned the nuts and bolts of constituent services, winning, and counting votes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so I think she just really — and just bare-knuckles political style. I mean, her father was involved. There had been a number of kind of like — I don’t want to say scandals, but there were some questionable issues around the way he ran the city on occasion. Susan can tell you more about that, but, you know, I think that is where she learned the nuts and bolts of constituent services, winning, and counting votes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> She really knew how to play the game is what I’m hearing you say.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> She really knew how to play the game is what I’m hearing you say.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, it wasn’t a game, you know, it was serious business and getting re-elected time and time again. Her brother also became mayor of Baltimore. So, you know, it was, you know, was like, you know, some kids are out playing baseball. She was out playing politics.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, it wasn’t a game, you know, it was serious business and getting re-elected time and time again. Her brother also became mayor of Baltimore. So, you know, it was, you know, was like, you know, some kids are out playing baseball. She was out playing politics.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Kevin in San Francisco writes, “I met Nancy Pelosi last weekend at Swenson’s Ice Cream, and I took the opportunity to tell her I am the grandson of a Holocaust survivor and I’m not satisfied with her response to Israel’s attacks on Gaza. I asked how she felt about the issue as a grandparent. She didn’t give me a very satisfying answer and I was eventually cut off by her security detail.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Kevin in San Francisco writes, “I met Nancy Pelosi last weekend at Swenson’s Ice Cream, and I took the opportunity to tell her I am the grandson of a Holocaust survivor and I’m not satisfied with her response to Israel’s attacks on Gaza. I asked how she felt about the issue as a grandparent. She didn’t give me a very satisfying answer and I was eventually cut off by her security detail.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Susan, was that a big critique of hers, how she handled the Middle East?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> Well, I do not think that’s been the focus of a lot of attention when you think about the big things that Pelosi has done. This is an issue that’s become, of course, enormously controversial now, given Israel’s actions against Gaza.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> Well, I do not think that’s been the focus of a lot of attention when you think about the big things that Pelosi has done. This is an issue that’s become, of course, enormously controversial now, given Israel’s actions against Gaza.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I do think — here’s one thing I think is interesting. I think it’s interesting that a former Speaker of the House, number one, is going out for ice cream. I can guarantee you she got chocolate.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I do think — here’s one thing I think is interesting. I think it’s interesting that a former Speaker of the House, number one, is going out for ice cream. I can guarantee you she got chocolate.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Number two, was willing to engage with someone who was giving her — challenging her, even if he eventually got cut off by security detail. That is, like, reasonably unusual these days.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Number two, was willing to engage with someone who was giving her — challenging her, even if he eventually got cut off by security detail. That is, like, reasonably unusual these days.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think one source of Pelosi’s strength, and Scott would know this better than I, was the fact that she kept pretty grounded in her district and she was back there all the time, even though it meant those cross-country flights.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think one source of Pelosi’s strength, and Scott would know this better than I, was the fact that she kept pretty grounded in her district and she was back there all the time, even though it meant those cross-country flights.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I would totally agree with that. You know, she was in the district all the time, cutting ribbons, going to town hall meetings, funerals, whatever it might be. She was very visible.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I would totally agree with that. You know, she was in the district all the time, cutting ribbons, going to town hall meetings, funerals, whatever it might be. She was very visible.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And, you know, Kevin McCarthy, not so much, you know, when he was Speaker. You know, it is a schlep, you know, to fly all the way back out to the district. But even some members of Congress on the East Coast, they get kind of comfortable in their seats, like Joe Crowley did when he was running for re-election and AOC beat him because he was never in the district.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And, you know, Kevin McCarthy, not so much, you know, when he was Speaker. You know, it is a schlep, you know, to fly all the way back out to the district. But even some members of Congress on the East Coast, they get kind of comfortable in their seats, like Joe Crowley did when he was running for re-election and AOC beat him because he was never in the district.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so Pelosi learned the importance of being visible, making sure you’re present when you need to be so people remember you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Hit the pavement.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Hit the pavement.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Carol writes, “You obviously went so deep on Nancy Pelosi. What surprised you most about her?” This is for Susan.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> Ah, uh, you know, she’s, uh, she — here’s, here’s what struck me. I’ve covered Washington for a long time. I was in Washington when she arrived. Uh, I have covered 12 presidential elections.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> Ah, uh, you know, she’s, uh, she — here’s, here’s what struck me. I’ve covered Washington for a long time. I was in Washington when she arrived. Uh, I have covered 12 presidential elections.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Nancy Pelosi is the person I’ve — who is the most comfortable with power. She is the more comfortable with how to amass power. And once you have it, how to keep it. And once you’ve kept it, how to use it. And that is… quite remarkable.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Nancy Pelosi is the person I’ve — who is the most comfortable with power. She is the more comfortable with how to amass power. And once you have it, how to keep it. And once you’ve kept it, how to use it. And that is… quite remarkable.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So in some ways, when, you know, everyone says first woman Speaker of the House, that’s certainly true. She was, in fact, one of the most effective congressional leaders in the history of the United States, male or female.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So in some ways, when, you know, everyone says first woman Speaker of the House, that’s certainly true. She was, in fact, one of the most effective congressional leaders in the history of the United States, male or female.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Scott, Pelosi announced her bid for Democratic whip in 2001. Just for those who might not follow politics, what is a whip and why did Pelosi want that specific job?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Scott, Pelosi announced her bid for Democratic whip in 2001. Just for those who might not follow politics, what is a whip and why did Pelosi want that specific job?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Well, it was the next leadership position available on the rung. You know, it goes whip, you know, majority leader, Speaker or minority leader, Speaker. And so that was the position that was open.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Well, it was the next leadership position available on the rung. You know, it goes whip, you know, majority leader, Speaker or minority leader, Speaker. And so that was the position that was open.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And, you know, at that time, there were a lot of men there. All the leadership was men up to that point. And there were people like Steny Hoyer, who was from Maryland, who thought it was kind of his turn. Others agreed it was his turn, and so she said, “No, I’m going to run. I’m gonna break into the line,” basically.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And, you know, at that time, there were a lot of men there. All the leadership was men up to that point. And there were people like Steny Hoyer, who was from Maryland, who thought it was kind of his turn. Others agreed it was his turn, and so she said, “No, I’m going to run. I’m gonna break into the line,” basically.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I’m not going to wait around. I’ve paid my dues.” They kept saying, “Well, you have to pay your dues.” She said, “I paid my dues,” you know, from before I got into Congress. Raising money to help elect Democrats to the Senate and being chair of the Democratic Party in California.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I’m not going to wait around. I’ve paid my dues.” They kept saying, “Well, you have to pay your dues.” She said, “I paid my dues,” you know, from before I got into Congress. Raising money to help elect Democrats to the Senate and being chair of the Democratic Party in California.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, you know, she really wasn’t — she saw that the people who were in charge didn’t have a plan to win. You know, she had seen them lose the House for the first time in 40 years in 1994, and then ’96, ’98, and then 2000. They kept losing, you know, and so she said, “Look, we’ve got to win here. And so I’ve got a plan.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, you know, she really wasn’t — she saw that the people who were in charge didn’t have a plan to win. You know, she had seen them lose the House for the first time in 40 years in 1994, and then ’96, ’98, and then 2000. They kept losing, you know, and so she said, “Look, we’ve got to win here. And so I’ve got a plan.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Let’s hear a clip there where she was quite impatient during that time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Let’s hear a clip there where she was quite impatient during that time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> ’94, ’96, ’98. I was like, there’s no plan to win. It was more of an attitude thing, like the pendulum will swing, but I didn’t see really a decision to have it be a wrecking ball, not a pendulum, a wrecking ball.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> ’94, ’96, ’98. I was like, there’s no plan to win. It was more of an attitude thing, like the pendulum will swing, but I didn’t see really a decision to have it be a wrecking ball, not a pendulum, a wrecking ball.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You decide to win, and then you make every decision in favor of winning. Quite frankly, I’m really tired of losing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You decide to win, and then you make every decision in favor of winning. Quite frankly, I’m really tired of losing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Susan, how was her appetite for that kind of confrontation? How was it viewed?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Susan, how was her appetite for that kind of confrontation? How was it viewed?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> You know, Republicans came to fear her. I can tell you Democrats came to fear her, too, during that early whip race. She was not welcomed to run. Congress was overwhelmingly male, pretty staid in terms of climbing the ladder of leadership.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> You know, Republicans came to fear her. I can tell you Democrats came to fear her, too, during that early whip race. She was not welcomed to run. Congress was overwhelmingly male, pretty staid in terms of climbing the ladder of leadership.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And she just, in the end, ignored them and went and waged a race and won the race on the basis of the size of the California delegation, and that was a big asset. Her support among some of the women who were serving in Congress and the fact that she could raise money. And she turned that into winning the whip race.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And she just, in the end, ignored them and went and waged a race and won the race on the basis of the size of the California delegation, and that was a big asset. Her support among some of the women who were serving in Congress and the fact that she could raise money. And she turned that into winning the whip race.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And with the whip race, that set her on the path that led her to eventually be Speaker. It set Democrats on the pathway that enabled them to regain a majority.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> You know, one thing I would add to that, everything Susan just said is absolutely true. The other kind of ace in the hole that she had, the secret sauce or secret weapon, was a congressman from Pennsylvania named Jack Murtha, very popular, pretty conservative, his sort of coal-country representative.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> You know, one thing I would add to that, everything Susan just said is absolutely true. The other kind of ace in the hole that she had, the secret sauce or secret weapon, was a congressman from Pennsylvania named Jack Murtha, very popular, pretty conservative, his sort of coal-country representative.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He was for her. And I think that stunned — that sent a signal to all of these male, longtime members of Congress, like, oh, she’s serious. I mean, she’s got Murtha.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>He was for her. And I think that stunned — that sent a signal to all of these male, longtime members of Congress, like, oh, she’s serious. I mean, she’s got Murtha.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Murtha actually helped run the campaign for whip for her. And it was just, you know, it was an indication of her ability to really work with diverse members of the Democratic Party. You know, they didn’t agree on everything, which he ended up being very helpful to her later when, you know, or actually before that, on the Presidio, when the base closed and turning it into a park and nonprofits and that kind of thing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Murtha actually helped run the campaign for whip for her. And it was just, you know, it was an indication of her ability to really work with diverse members of the Democratic Party. You know, they didn’t agree on everything, which he ended up being very helpful to her later when, you know, or actually before that, on the Presidio, when the base closed and turning it into a park and nonprofits and that kind of thing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So they knew each other. And she really — he really respected her. And, you know, he saw her focus on winning. And so he went with her.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So they knew each other. And she really — he really respected her. And, you know, he saw her focus on winning. And so he went with her.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Anne Marie writes, “Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi is a rare, precious gem. Not only is she consistently gracious, but she is effective in accomplishing things for the people. I met her over 30 years ago as another human being. When I met, she warmly remembers me and my family to this day. Stellar human. What a blessing to live in San Francisco during her lifetime.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Anne Marie writes, “Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi is a rare, precious gem. Not only is she consistently gracious, but she is effective in accomplishing things for the people. I met her over 30 years ago as another human being. When I met, she warmly remembers me and my family to this day. Stellar human. What a blessing to live in San Francisco during her lifetime.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Christopher writes, “Nancy Pelosi is popular among liberals, but she supported every single war and every military spending increase. This undermined the domestic agenda. She also killed the Green New Deal and fought against Medicare for All.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Christopher writes, “Nancy Pelosi is popular among liberals, but she supported every single war and every military spending increase. This undermined the domestic agenda. She also killed the Green New Deal and fought against Medicare for All.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What do you think? We would love to hear from listeners. We’d love to know maybe a favorite memory, your critiques or your praise for Nancy Pelosi. What do you think her legacy will be? Do you think the Democratic Party is ready to go on without her?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What do you think? We would love to hear from listeners. We’d love to know maybe a favorite memory, your critiques or your praise for Nancy Pelosi. What do you think her legacy will be? Do you think the Democratic Party is ready to go on without her?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You can email your comments, your questions to \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. You can find us on Discord, on Bluesky, on Facebook, on Instagram, or at KQED Forum. Or you can just give us a call right now at 866-733-6786. 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>You can email your comments, your questions to \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. You can find us on Discord, on Bluesky, on Facebook, on Instagram, or at KQED Forum. Or you can just give us a call right now at 866-733-6786. 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Susan, she challenged Steny Hoyer and she broke traditional seniority lines when she did that. Talk about that moment and how did Democrats respond to that?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Susan, she challenged Steny Hoyer and she broke traditional seniority lines when she did that. Talk about that moment and how did Democrats respond to that?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> And, Lesley, if I could just make the point that there’s one inaccuracy in the comment that you just read about Nancy Pelosi’s record on war. Lots of things to criticize about Pelosi, no question. That’s certainly fair game.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> And, Lesley, if I could just make the point that there’s one inaccuracy in the comment that you just read about Nancy Pelosi’s record on war. Lots of things to criticize about Pelosi, no question. That’s certainly fair game.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But Nancy Pelosi supported the war in Afghanistan. She opposed the war on Iraq from the start. She was the highest-ranking Democratic official in Congress to oppose the invasion of Iraq when it began. She called that one the biggest mistake made in the history of the United States, although she said that before President Trump was president. I don’t know if she would amend that statement now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But Nancy Pelosi supported the war in Afghanistan. She opposed the war on Iraq from the start. She was the highest-ranking Democratic official in Congress to oppose the invasion of Iraq when it began. She called that one the biggest mistake made in the history of the United States, although she said that before President Trump was president. I don’t know if she would amend that statement now.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But she served — she was very proud of having served on the Intelligence Committee because she said it gave her insights into what was actually going on, on things like the lead-up to the war in Iraq. And on that, she did take a stand.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But she served — she was very proud of having served on the Intelligence Committee because she said it gave her insights into what was actually going on, on things like the lead-up to the war in Iraq. And on that, she did take a stand.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now with Steny Hoyer, I would say that if you talk to Steny Hoyer today, some of the wounds from that whip race remain with both of them. You know, that was the kind of race that the people involved on both sides will never forget.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now with Steny Hoyer, I would say that if you talk to Steny Hoyer today, some of the wounds from that whip race remain with both of them. You know, that was the kind of race that the people involved on both sides will never forget.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> We are talking about the legacy of Nancy Pelosi as she approaches retirement after the 2026 midterm elections. Let’s sneak in a really quick call. You gotta be quick, Stuart.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> We are talking about the legacy of Nancy Pelosi as she approaches retirement after the 2026 midterm elections. Let’s sneak in a really quick call. You gotta be quick, Stuart.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart:\u003c/strong> Hi. I’m just feeling really nostalgic because so many milestones in my life are connected to this chapter in Nancy Pelosi’s career.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart:\u003c/strong> Hi. I’m just feeling really nostalgic because so many milestones in my life are connected to this chapter in Nancy Pelosi’s career.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I met my husband at an election house party for Harry Britt for Congress in 1987. So obviously we were Harry Britt supporters, but Nancy won us over with that first speech on the floor of the House when she talked about HIV/AIDS.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I met my husband at an election house party for Harry Britt for Congress in 1987. So obviously we were Harry Britt supporters, but Nancy won us over with that first speech on the floor of the House when she talked about HIV/AIDS.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Our key aide, Steve Morin, originally an opponent in that race, but he became a key staffer and together they championed the Ryan White CARE Act, which made all the difference in HIV/AIDS funding in this country. Steve later became my boss at UCSF.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Our key aide, Steve Morin, originally an opponent in that race, but he became a key staffer and together they championed the Ryan White CARE Act, which made all the difference in HIV/AIDS funding in this country. Steve later became my boss at UCSF.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m really going to miss Nancy being in Congress, though, because every time I’ve heard she’s been there 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, I know I have an anniversary coming up with my husband. We’ve made it 39 years together — my husband and Nancy and I.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I’m really going to miss Nancy being in Congress, though, because every time I’ve heard she’s been there 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, I know I have an anniversary coming up with my husband. We’ve made it 39 years together — my husband and Nancy and I.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Congratulations, Stuart. That is so beautiful. Really, congratulations.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Congratulations, Stuart. That is so beautiful. Really, congratulations.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’ll be right back after this break. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We’ll be right back after this break. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. We are talking about Speaker Nancy Pelosi and her legacy after four decades representing San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. We are talking about Speaker Nancy Pelosi and her legacy after four decades representing San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I want to bring Padmini Raghunath into the conversation. She is the series editor for the podcast that we’re talking about called \u003cem>The Speaker\u003c/em>. This is what Scott Shafer and her worked on together. Scott Shafer is also joining us. He’s senior politics correspondent here at KQED. And we’re also joined by Susan Page. She is Washington bureau chief for \u003cem>USA Today\u003c/em>, and author of \u003cem>Madam Speaker: Nancy Pelosi and the Lessons of Power\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I want to bring Padmini Raghunath into the conversation. She is the series editor for the podcast that we’re talking about called \u003cem>The Speaker\u003c/em>. This is what Scott Shafer and her worked on together. Scott Shafer is also joining us. He’s senior politics correspondent here at KQED. And we’re also joined by Susan Page. She is Washington bureau chief for \u003cem>USA Today\u003c/em>, and author of \u003cem>Madam Speaker: Nancy Pelosi and the Lessons of Power\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Padmini, the last few episodes of this series, they’re not actually out yet. Just number two is out today.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Padmini, the last few episodes of this series, they’re not actually out yet. Just number two is out today.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Padmini Raghunath:\u003c/strong> Number one and two are out.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Padmini Raghunath:\u003c/strong> Number one and two are out.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> This third episode is going to be about the Affordable Care Act. Why did you devote a whole episode to that specifically?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> This third episode is going to be about the Affordable Care Act. Why did you devote a whole episode to that specifically?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Padmini Raghunath:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much for having me on, first of all. And I also wanted to mention, it wasn’t just the two of us. We also have a brilliant producer named Ariella Markowitz, who we couldn’t have done this without, obviously. Shout-out to Ariella. And a whole team behind us also.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Padmini Raghunath:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much for having me on, first of all. And I also wanted to mention, it wasn’t just the two of us. We also have a brilliant producer named Ariella Markowitz, who we couldn’t have done this without, obviously. Shout-out to Ariella. And a whole team behind us also.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But, yeah, I mean, we only had five episodes. And it was kind of a big move to devote a whole episode to the passage of the Affordable Care Act. And of course, aside from it being kind of Pelosi’s achievement, her legacy, it’s also, to me as an editor, kind of a really interesting sausage-making moment, if that makes sense.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But, yeah, I mean, we only had five episodes. And it was kind of a big move to devote a whole episode to the passage of the Affordable Care Act. And of course, aside from it being kind of Pelosi’s achievement, her legacy, it’s also, to me as an editor, kind of a really interesting sausage-making moment, if that makes sense.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So the first two episodes are really devoted to her accumulating power, kicking down the doors, as we’ve been talking about. And this third episode is this moment where, okay, now you’re here. What does it actually take to get a bill like that passed?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So the first two episodes are really devoted to her accumulating power, kicking down the doors, as we’ve been talking about. And this third episode is this moment where, okay, now you’re here. What does it actually take to get a bill like that passed?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And, you know, it’s kind of interesting to work on something historical because, you know, we’re always looking for tension, having people sitting on the edge of their seats. But we, I feel like, kind of maybe achieved that just by going beat by beat. You know, how do you have to, like, bob and weave through D.C. politics, basically, to get something like this passed?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And, you know, it’s kind of interesting to work on something historical because, you know, we’re always looking for tension, having people sitting on the edge of their seats. But we, I feel like, kind of maybe achieved that just by going beat by beat. You know, how do you have to, like, bob and weave through D.C. politics, basically, to get something like this passed?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then, of course, I mean, the Affordable Care Act ended up becoming this sort of lightning rod for controversy and arguably the Tea Party movement and, you know, all sorts of sort of effects, run-on effects, that we’re still feeling today. And so it was also important to kind of situate that, I think, to help understand our current moment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then, of course, I mean, the Affordable Care Act ended up becoming this sort of lightning rod for controversy and arguably the Tea Party movement and, you know, all sorts of sort of effects, run-on effects, that we’re still feeling today. And so it was also important to kind of situate that, I think, to help understand our current moment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> To talk about those right-wing movements, but before we move on from the ACA, Scott, do you think that Pelosi had to really compromise on her own values to get it across the line?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> To talk about those right-wing movements, but before we move on from the ACA, Scott, do you think that Pelosi had to really compromise on her own values to get it across the line?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> She would say no. You know, the Affordable Care Act, first of all, the president and Rahm Emanuel and David Axelrod, they weren’t even sure that now was the time. This is like in the middle of the mortgage meltdown, and, you know, the economy was not doing well, was just maybe beginning to recover.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> She would say no. You know, the Affordable Care Act, first of all, the president and Rahm Emanuel and David Axelrod, they weren’t even sure that now was the time. This is like in the middle of the mortgage meltdown, and, you know, the economy was not doing well, was just maybe beginning to recover.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so getting this thing through Congress was very difficult. It was a huge bill, a huge change. And of course, the obstacle was the Senate.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so getting this thing through Congress was very difficult. It was a huge bill, a huge change. And of course, the obstacle was the Senate.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, the Democrats, if you can believe it, at that time had 60 votes in the Senate, which was a filibuster-proof majority. But then Ted Kennedy died. And so they went down to 59. They temporarily had 60. But they also had Joe Lieberman, who was one of the Democrats from Connecticut, which is the home to a lot of insurance companies.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, the Democrats, if you can believe it, at that time had 60 votes in the Senate, which was a filibuster-proof majority. But then Ted Kennedy died. And so they went down to 59. They temporarily had 60. But they also had Joe Lieberman, who was one of the Democrats from Connecticut, which is the home to a lot of insurance companies.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And he would not vote for the public option, which is something that Pelosi and her caucus really wanted as a separate option for people to get on the marketplace that would compete with insurance plans out there, would be subsidized by the government. And, you know, thinking was it would drive down price, would provide competition.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And he would not vote for the public option, which is something that Pelosi and her caucus really wanted as a separate option for people to get on the marketplace that would compete with insurance plans out there, would be subsidized by the government. And, you know, thinking was it would drive down price, would provide competition.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Senate version did not have that. And Pelosi was just a pragmatist, like, look, we’re stuck with this Senate bill because, you know, we just have to amend it. We have to fix it to make it more palatable to us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The Senate version did not have that. And Pelosi was just a pragmatist, like, look, we’re stuck with this Senate bill because, you know, we just have to amend it. We have to fix it to make it more palatable to us.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And there were a lot of compromises in that. You know, I think some people, you know, some earlier caller or a listener commented on the Green New Deal. You know, Pelosi, who dismissed that as the Green New Dream or something, you know, she’s like all about what can you get done? What can we get?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And there were a lot of compromises in that. You know, I think some people, you know, some earlier caller or a listener commented on the Green New Deal. You know, Pelosi, who dismissed that as the Green New Dream or something, you know, she’s like all about what can you get done? What can we get?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And she knew what she could get enough votes for in the Senate, what she could get votes for enough in the House. Abortion, you know, navigating that was a big issue. So, you know, she, she did everything she could to get the best bill possible from a Democratic point of view.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And she knew what she could get enough votes for in the Senate, what she could get votes for enough in the House. Abortion, you know, navigating that was a big issue. So, you know, she, she did everything she could to get the best bill possible from a Democratic point of view.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And that, you know, sausage-making that Padmini alluded to, that’s politics, you know.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And that, you know, sausage-making that Padmini alluded to, that’s politics, you know.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Let’s hear from a caller, Lois in Piedmont. You’re on the air.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Let’s hear from a caller, Lois in Piedmont. You’re on the air.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lois:\u003c/strong> And, uh, I’m delighted to say that when I was — I’m an Emerge alum, which is a Democratic training program for pro-choice women — and our executive director, Kimberly Ellis, at the time, we were at the state convention in Southern California and she invited Nancy Pelosi to be our woman to talk to us about leadership and politics.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lois:\u003c/strong> And, uh, I’m delighted to say that when I was — I’m an Emerge alum, which is a Democratic training program for pro-choice women — and our executive director, Kimberly Ellis, at the time, we were at the state convention in Southern California and she invited Nancy Pelosi to be our woman to talk to us about leadership and politics.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I just remember she had just passed the — she, and I call it she, the Affordable Care Act — and she’s talking to me privately, she’s looking me in the face, and I was just like so inspired by that, to a woman leader who, of course, represents the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I just remember she had just passed the — she, and I call it she, the Affordable Care Act — and she’s talking to me privately, she’s looking me in the face, and I was just like so inspired by that, to a woman leader who, of course, represents the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I was, at the time, campaigning to be a trustee for the County Board of Education in Alameda County, and I was just so inspired by her.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I was, at the time, campaigning to be a trustee for the County Board of Education in Alameda County, and I was just so inspired by her.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then recently, I got to see her when Belva Davis was acknowledged. And I said, you know, “Can you keep working?” And she said, “No. Enjoy your time,” and I hope I can eat her for ice cream as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then recently, I got to see her when Belva Davis was acknowledged. And I said, you know, “Can you keep working?” And she said, “No. Enjoy your time,” and I hope I can eat her for ice cream as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I hope you get to meet her for ice cream as well, Lois. Let’s stay with the phones. Shannon in San Francisco, you’re on the air.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I hope you get to meet her for ice cream as well, Lois. Let’s stay with the phones. Shannon in San Francisco, you’re on the air.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shannon:\u003c/strong> Hi. Yeah. Um, so I was born and raised in San Francisco. I’m a U.S. Navy service-connected disabled veteran, and I worked for a nonprofit called Swords to Plowshares.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shannon:\u003c/strong> Hi. Yeah. Um, so I was born and raised in San Francisco. I’m a U.S. Navy service-connected disabled veteran, and I worked for a nonprofit called Swords to Plowshares.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I have to admit that Nancy Pelosi has been one of the most ardent supporters of veterans, veterans issues, veterans benefits, and the Department of Veterans Affairs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And she’s one of those few people — not woman, not man, just few people — who never served, never was in the military, and has always been there for this population more so than, like, John McCain or Bob Dole, who actually were in the military.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And she’s one of those few people — not woman, not man, just few people — who never served, never was in the military, and has always been there for this population more so than, like, John McCain or Bob Dole, who actually were in the military.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And regardless of all her faults, I have to give it to her for being there for people like myself. That’s really about it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I’m so glad that you had her support, Scott. It sounds like you want to —\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I’m so glad that you had her support, Scott. It sounds like you want to —\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, I wish I had a dollar for every press release I got where Nancy Pelosi was going to be at Swords to Plowshares doing something. She was there an awful lot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, I wish I had a dollar for every press release I got where Nancy Pelosi was going to be at Swords to Plowshares doing something. She was there an awful lot.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But, you know, kind of in reference to that earlier comment from a listener that she supported every war. And as Susan correctly pointed out, she voted against the Iraq war, but she refused to cut funding for the troops once they were there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But, you know, kind of in reference to that earlier comment from a listener that she supported every war. And as Susan correctly pointed out, she voted against the Iraq war, but she refused to cut funding for the troops once they were there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>She didn’t like the war. She was highly critical of President Bush over that. And it was part of their platform for winning back the majority in 2006.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>She didn’t like the war. She was highly critical of President Bush over that. And it was part of their platform for winning back the majority in 2006.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But she’s also very patriotic. I think that’s maybe something people don’t know about Nancy Pelosi. Her favorite holiday, according to her, is Memorial Day. She loves to acknowledge the role of veterans and people who serve this country.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But she’s also very patriotic. I think that’s maybe something people don’t know about Nancy Pelosi. Her favorite holiday, according to her, is Memorial Day. She loves to acknowledge the role of veterans and people who serve this country.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And people don’t necessarily identify the liberal Democrat from San Francisco in that way. But she is very much patriotic. We haven’t talked about her faith. She’s very religious. And so that’s very much a part of who she is.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And people don’t necessarily identify the liberal Democrat from San Francisco in that way. But she is very much patriotic. We haven’t talked about her faith. She’s very religious. And so that’s very much a part of who she is.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Susan, we were just talking before this little thread. We were talking about the rise of the Tea Party movement, of these right-wing movements that came out of the passage of the ACA. This is Trump. This is MAGA. How did Pelosi respond when these right-wing movements began to grow?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Susan, we were just talking before this little thread. We were talking about the rise of the Tea Party movement, of these right-wing movements that came out of the passage of the ACA. This is Trump. This is MAGA. How did Pelosi respond when these right-wing movements began to grow?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> They began to grow and, of course, they targeted her. She became a great fundraising tool for some of these farther-right groups that began to grow.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> They began to grow and, of course, they targeted her. She became a great fundraising tool for some of these farther-right groups that began to grow.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think she found them flummoxing because Pelosi’s agenda was to get some stuff done and agree with what she wanted to get done or not, but that was what she wanted to do.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think she found them flummoxing because Pelosi’s agenda was to get some stuff done and agree with what she wanted to get done or not, but that was what she wanted to do.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the idea that there were these people running for office at the other end of the political spectrum who were getting elected with the promise that the government would not do things and would peel back on things it was already doing was something I think she found very hard to understand.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the idea that there were these people running for office at the other end of the political spectrum who were getting elected with the promise that the government would not do things and would peel back on things it was already doing was something I think she found very hard to understand.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Barbara writes, “I loved it when Nancy Pelosi ripped up Trump’s State of the Union speech in front of everyone during his first administration.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Barbara writes, “I loved it when Nancy Pelosi ripped up Trump’s State of the Union speech in front of everyone during his first administration.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Scott, we have a clip of you asking Speaker Pelosi about why she went forward with the impeachment of Trump. This is the first time when she knew it was going to fail in the Senate. Let’s hear that clip.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Scott, we have a clip of you asking Speaker Pelosi about why she went forward with the impeachment of Trump. This is the first time when she knew it was going to fail in the Senate. Let’s hear that clip.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Why did you think it was important to go ahead and really start a process that you knew ultimately you would not?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Why did you think it was important to go ahead and really start a process that you knew ultimately you would not?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> We did succeed. We impeached him twice. But you think that we should be guided by what the Senate might do? You think that the president has committed impeachable offenses of the highest magnitude and we shouldn’t do that because we don’t know what some senators are going to do? No.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> We did succeed. We impeached him twice. But you think that we should be guided by what the Senate might do? You think that the president has committed impeachable offenses of the highest magnitude and we shouldn’t do that because we don’t know what some senators are going to do? No.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> You can hear the contempt in her voice.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> You can hear the contempt in her voice.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> In her voice. She is not a fan of the Senate, I can tell you that. How did it feel to be on the other end of that pushback in that?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> In her voice. She is not a fan of the Senate, I can tell you that. How did it feel to be on the other end of that pushback in that?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Oh, that was nothing. I mean, you know, that was fairly mild. I mean, I, you know, and that’s, that’s just Pelosi. You know, she, she’s really — she has a position. She, she will, you know, sort of undercut the premise of your question if she doesn’t like it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Oh, that was nothing. I mean, you know, that was fairly mild. I mean, I, you know, and that’s, that’s just Pelosi. You know, she, she’s really — she has a position. She, she will, you know, sort of undercut the premise of your question if she doesn’t like it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And, you know, she’s, she is very focused on the House. The House’s responsibility is, you know, oversight, and they have the power to impeach. And that’s what they did.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And, you know, she’s, she is very focused on the House. The House’s responsibility is, you know, oversight, and they have the power to impeach. And that’s what they did.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And she wasn’t about looking down the road to see whether it would pass the Senate, which I’m sure she knew it wouldn’t. But she wanted to go, you know, maybe go down in history as having, quote-unquote, “done the right thing,” to try to hold the president accountable when he had committed — that was the phone call with the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelensky, you know, kind of a quid pro quo, military aid for investigating Hunter Biden and Joe Biden.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And she wasn’t about looking down the road to see whether it would pass the Senate, which I’m sure she knew it wouldn’t. But she wanted to go, you know, maybe go down in history as having, quote-unquote, “done the right thing,” to try to hold the president accountable when he had committed — that was the phone call with the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelensky, you know, kind of a quid pro quo, military aid for investigating Hunter Biden and Joe Biden.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so, you know, she just saw that as her role. That one was — that one was a relatively mild brushback.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so, you know, she just saw that as her role. That one was — that one was a relatively mild brushback.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> You know, and the fact is, she had pushed back on impeachment for a long time. There was a lot of energy in the Democratic caucus to impeach Trump that she held back on because she thought that politically it was not going to succeed and that was going to carry some costs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> You know, and the fact is, she had pushed back on impeachment for a long time. There was a lot of energy in the Democratic caucus to impeach Trump that she held back on because she thought that politically it was not going to succeed and that was going to carry some costs.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But once that phone call came out, and then the second time around, after the January 6 riot, she felt, I think, she didn’t have any choice.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But once that phone call came out, and then the second time around, after the January 6 riot, she felt, I think, she didn’t have any choice.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Let’s go back to the phones. Val in San Francisco, you’re on the air.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Let’s go back to the phones. Val in San Francisco, you’re on the air.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Val:\u003c/strong> Hi, I’m a San Franciscan, born and raised, and I’m about the same age as Nancy Pelosi, but maybe a little younger.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Val:\u003c/strong> Hi, I’m a San Franciscan, born and raised, and I’m about the same age as Nancy Pelosi, but maybe a little younger.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I remember her from so long ago, and in the ’80s and ’90s there was — I was very ill, and I needed medical care. And I got it because Nancy Pelosi had a childhood health care initiative for children, and I was — and a lot of other people were able to get care because of that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I remember her from so long ago, and in the ’80s and ’90s there was — I was very ill, and I needed medical care. And I got it because Nancy Pelosi had a childhood health care initiative for children, and I was — and a lot of other people were able to get care because of that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that story.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that story.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you know, that reminds me of another story that was in our first episode. Mike Schriver, who supported Harry Britt in that first campaign, but got to know Pelosi and went to her office with a friend who needed to get onto some experimental drug treatment trial because he had AIDS.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you know, that reminds me of another story that was in our first episode. Mike Schriver, who supported Harry Britt in that first campaign, but got to know Pelosi and went to her office with a friend who needed to get onto some experimental drug treatment trial because he had AIDS.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And she also helped him. Mike Schriver, and he has some very poignant stories about her. I still am in touch with him to this day, and he really credits Nancy Pelosi and the Ryan White CARE Act for his being alive.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And she also helped him. Mike Schriver, and he has some very poignant stories about her. I still am in touch with him to this day, and he really credits Nancy Pelosi and the Ryan White CARE Act for his being alive.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> As you heard there, we are talking about the legacy of Speaker Nancy Pelosi, four decades representing San Francisco. Lesley McClurg, I’m sitting in today for Mina Kim, and you are listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> As you heard there, we are talking about the legacy of Speaker Nancy Pelosi, four decades representing San Francisco. Lesley McClurg, I’m sitting in today for Mina Kim, and you are listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We have lots of comments coming in here.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We have lots of comments coming in here.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Nancy writes, “My favorite Pelosi moment is her standing up to the San Francisco Archbishop’s announcement that she was prohibited from receiving Holy Communion. She was dignified, and he looked like a foolish misogynist.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Nancy writes, “My favorite Pelosi moment is her standing up to the San Francisco Archbishop’s announcement that she was prohibited from receiving Holy Communion. She was dignified, and he looked like a foolish misogynist.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Let’s see, Roger writes, “Here lies the difference between corporate liberals and the progressive culture that was snuffed out of San Francisco and the neighborhoods like the Mission that were intentionally knocked down and replaced like SoMa and the North Mission. Pelosi and Feinstein’s massive corporate money led that battle.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Let’s see, Roger writes, “Here lies the difference between corporate liberals and the progressive culture that was snuffed out of San Francisco and the neighborhoods like the Mission that were intentionally knocked down and replaced like SoMa and the North Mission. Pelosi and Feinstein’s massive corporate money led that battle.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Is that true, Scott?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Which part of that? I mean, fair, fair. Yeah, I mean, she believes — she talks all the time about Citizens United, the Supreme Court decision that allowed an influx, a huge influx of money.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Which part of that? I mean, fair, fair. Yeah, I mean, she believes — she talks all the time about Citizens United, the Supreme Court decision that allowed an influx, a huge influx of money.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But she also has raised a boatload of money, one of the most prolific fundraisers in congressional history. And there are people who don’t like some of the places she’s gotten money from.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But she also has raised a boatload of money, one of the most prolific fundraisers in congressional history. And there are people who don’t like some of the places she’s gotten money from.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I think her point is, look, we’re not going to tie one hand behind our backs just because we don’t have all the money. We’re not going to be disadvantaged. We can try to change the system, but this is the system. And we’re going to have to play in that arena.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I think her point is, look, we’re not going to tie one hand behind our backs just because we don’t have all the money. We’re not going to be disadvantaged. We can try to change the system, but this is the system. And we’re going to have to play in that arena.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Susan, big question for you here. I mean, Pelosi is going to be gone by the first of the year. Where does the Democratic Party leadership go from here?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Susan, big question for you here. I mean, Pelosi is going to be gone by the first of the year. Where does the Democratic Party leadership go from here?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> That is a big question, and that is not determined because there is a division in the Democratic Party now between the energy of some of these very progressive voices that have succeeded in Democratic primaries from Michigan to Maine, and of course in California as well, and more moderate Democrats, more centrist Democrats who worry that the Democrats will blow what looks like a nicely set table for the 2028 presidential election if they nominate someone too far left to appeal in some of the more conservative heartland states.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> That is a big question, and that is not determined because there is a division in the Democratic Party now between the energy of some of these very progressive voices that have succeeded in Democratic primaries from Michigan to Maine, and of course in California as well, and more moderate Democrats, more centrist Democrats who worry that the Democrats will blow what looks like a nicely set table for the 2028 presidential election if they nominate someone too far left to appeal in some of the more conservative heartland states.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is — we are at the beginning of a war over the direction of the Democrats. And this is a war that will be waged without Nancy Pelosi on the front lines.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is — we are at the beginning of a war over the direction of the Democrats. And this is a war that will be waged without Nancy Pelosi on the front lines.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> But, Padmini, what else is in the series? What are you guys gonna tackle?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> But, Padmini, what else is in the series? What are you guys gonna tackle?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Padmini Raghunath:\u003c/strong> In these final episodes. So I mentioned that our third episode, which is coming out next Wednesday, is about the Affordable Care Act and sort of the seeds of the Tea Party movement.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Padmini Raghunath:\u003c/strong> In these final episodes. So I mentioned that our third episode, which is coming out next Wednesday, is about the Affordable Care Act and sort of the seeds of the Tea Party movement.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And of course, as history comes closer to us, it starts to feel like a pointillist painting or something. It’s harder to see it. And so we just kind of had to be honest about that. And hearing some of the criticisms also coming in today, we weren’t afraid to shy away from that either.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And of course, as history comes closer to us, it starts to feel like a pointillist painting or something. It’s harder to see it. And so we just kind of had to be honest about that. And hearing some of the criticisms also coming in today, we weren’t afraid to shy away from that either.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So the fourth episode addresses something that our producer, Ariella, heard a lot when she went and did Vox in D.C., which was — we are addressing the ban on stock trading in the fourth episode, and these sort of internal divisions that Susan Page just described, in addition to the impeachment in episode four and January 6th, which stacked episode.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So the fourth episode addresses something that our producer, Ariella, heard a lot when she went and did Vox in D.C., which was — we are addressing the ban on stock trading in the fourth episode, and these sort of internal divisions that Susan Page just described, in addition to the impeachment in episode four and January 6th, which stacked episode.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Sounds good. Lots of coverage.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Sounds good. Lots of coverage.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Padmini Raghunath:\u003c/strong> And then the fifth episode is really, um, I would say kind of — it’s about you, Scott, a little bit.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Padmini Raghunath:\u003c/strong> And then the fifth episode is really, um, I would say kind of — it’s about you, Scott, a little bit.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> You know, I mean, you know, our careers in some ways overlapped. I very well — I mean, not to compare myself or my legacy to hers, but, you know, I’ve seen that first campaign and so you’re kind of putting it into context.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> You know, I mean, you know, our careers in some ways overlapped. I very well — I mean, not to compare myself or my legacy to hers, but, you know, I’ve seen that first campaign and so you’re kind of putting it into context.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’re now involved in a very vigorous election to replace her. You know, she and I kind of had a contentious back-and-forth about that. And so it’s a reflection, I think, of, you know, her legacy, how she got there, where she’s leaving the Democratic Party, which, as Susan Page just said, is kind of in a bit of a civil war right now, her role in that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We’re now involved in a very vigorous election to replace her. You know, she and I kind of had a contentious back-and-forth about that. And so it’s a reflection, I think, of, you know, her legacy, how she got there, where she’s leaving the Democratic Party, which, as Susan Page just said, is kind of in a bit of a civil war right now, her role in that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I mean, she’s definitely been concerned about, you know, some of the nominees in the Democratic Party, like, you know, Abdul El-Sayed in Michigan. And so we’re going to find out in November, you know, how does a more progressive candidate fare in a place like Michigan?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I mean, she’s definitely been concerned about, you know, some of the nominees in the Democratic Party, like, you know, Abdul El-Sayed in Michigan. And so we’re going to find out in November, you know, how does a more progressive candidate fare in a place like Michigan?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So some of those questions about 2028 are going to maybe not resolve, but we’ll have more data points. And so the fifth episode talks a little bit about some of those things as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So some of those questions about 2028 are going to maybe not resolve, but we’ll have more data points. And so the fifth episode talks a little bit about some of those things as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Padmini Raghunath:\u003c/strong> I would just jump in and add really quickly. I think it’s also about certainty versus uncertainty, like the role of a politician versus the role of a journalist, which, you know, for her to have accomplished what she did, she had to be certain that it was going to happen, even if maybe she had her private doubts. That’s just what she had to do and project.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Padmini Raghunath:\u003c/strong> I would just jump in and add really quickly. I think it’s also about certainty versus uncertainty, like the role of a politician versus the role of a journalist, which, you know, for her to have accomplished what she did, she had to be certain that it was going to happen, even if maybe she had her private doubts. That’s just what she had to do and project.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And our job is to ask questions about that. So, that’s maybe a little tease.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And our job is to ask questions about that. So, that’s maybe a little tease.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> And analyze how things worked out.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> And analyze how things worked out.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Given that we are, though, on the precipice of this election, what’s happening? Who’s running? Give us a little summary of who’s up for her seat.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Given that we are, though, on the precipice of this election, what’s happening? Who’s running? Give us a little summary of who’s up for her seat.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So the primary was interesting. There were three candidates, including Shoykat Chakrabarti, who was AOC’s chief of staff. And right before the primary, Pelosi endorsed Connie Chan, in part, I think, because she really wanted to make sure Chakrabarti wasn’t there. She was one of many people who got him fired, basically, from his job in Congress.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So the primary was interesting. There were three candidates, including Shoykat Chakrabarti, who was AOC’s chief of staff. And right before the primary, Pelosi endorsed Connie Chan, in part, I think, because she really wanted to make sure Chakrabarti wasn’t there. She was one of many people who got him fired, basically, from his job in Congress.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so she succeeded and, you know, Chan did very well. So now it’s Chan versus Scott Wiener, state senator from San Francisco, openly gay. He finished first in the primary by quite a few points.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so she succeeded and, you know, Chan did very well. So now it’s Chan versus Scott Wiener, state senator from San Francisco, openly gay. He finished first in the primary by quite a few points.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But Pelosi has really put her foot on the pedal. She’s helping Connie Chan with fundraising, boosting her campaign in many, many ways. She’s even calling some of Scott Wiener’s endorsers, trying to get them to change their mind, Dolores Huerta in particular.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But Pelosi has really put her foot on the pedal. She’s helping Connie Chan with fundraising, boosting her campaign in many, many ways. She’s even calling some of Scott Wiener’s endorsers, trying to get them to change their mind, Dolores Huerta in particular.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so it’s not so much a generational question, I think, because they’re — Chan’s a little younger than Wiener, but they’re both under 60.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so it’s not so much a generational question, I think, because they’re — Chan’s a little younger than Wiener, but they’re both under 60.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I think it’s going to be really about who can get things done. What kind of person do you want to follow in the footsteps of Nancy Pelosi, who has been a legendary representative for San Francisco for the past four decades? What are the qualities you’re looking for? What are qualities Democrats feel are needed right now?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I think it’s going to be really about who can get things done. What kind of person do you want to follow in the footsteps of Nancy Pelosi, who has been a legendary representative for San Francisco for the past four decades? What are the qualities you’re looking for? What are qualities Democrats feel are needed right now?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Big shoes to fill there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Big shoes to fill there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You just heard from Scott Shafer again. His new podcast’s second episode dropped today, three more to come. The title is \u003cem>The Speaker\u003c/em>. His producer — or editor, I should say — is Padmini Raghunath. She is also obviously involved in that, \u003cem>The Speaker\u003c/em>. And Susan Page also joined us, Washington Bureau Chief for \u003cem>USA Today\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You just heard from Scott Shafer again. His new podcast’s second episode dropped today, three more to come. The title is \u003cem>The Speaker\u003c/em>. His producer — or editor, I should say — is Padmini Raghunath. She is also obviously involved in that, \u003cem>The Speaker\u003c/em>. And Susan Page also joined us, Washington Bureau Chief for \u003cem>USA Today\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Thanks so much for listening. Have a great day.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Thanks so much for listening. Have a great day.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Announcer:\u003c/strong> Funds for the production of \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> are provided by the Generosity Family Fund and the members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Announcer:\u003c/strong> Funds for the production of \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> are provided by the Generosity Family Fund and the members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Wednesday, September 23, 2026 at 10 am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Rep. Nancy Pelosi will retire following the 2026 midterm elections, bringing to end her almost 40-year career in Congress. In a new five-part podcast series, “The Speaker,” KQED’s Scott Shafer embarked on an ambitious reporting project to capture the story of the first woman Speaker of the House. Shafer traces how Pelosi rose from unlikely Congressional candidate to one of the most powerful women in American politics. Shafer and Pelosi biographer Susan Page joins us to talk about Pelosi’s political legacy and where the Democratic Party goes from here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer,\u003c/strong> senior politics correspondent at KQED’s Politics and Government desk and Political Breakdown co-host\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Susan Page,\u003c/strong> Washington Bureau Chief, USA Today; author, “Madam Speaker: Nancy Pelosi and the Lessons of Power”\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Padmini Raghunath,\u003c/strong> series editor, “The Speaker”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Lesley McClurg. I’m in today for Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Nancy Pelosi. After nearly four decades representing San Francisco in Congress, she is preparing to leave office. She was the first woman elected Speaker of the House and obviously became one of the most consequential figures in American politics.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We are joined by two journalists who know her story inside and out. Our own Scott Shafer, who is senior politics correspondent here at KQED and the host of a new podcast about Nancy Pelosi called \u003cem>The Speaker\u003c/em>. Welcome, Scott.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Thanks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> We’re also joined by Susan Page. She is Washington Bureau Chief for \u003cem>USA Today\u003c/em> and author of \u003cem>Madam Speaker: Nancy Pelosi and the Lessons of Power\u003c/em>. Welcome, Susan.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> It’s great to be with you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Scott, you sat down with Nancy for five interviews for this series, for this new podcast series, and you noted that she tends to push back. Sometimes she’s not an easy interview. She’s maybe even a little reticent to talk about her legacy, even though that was the point of these interviews. What was the dynamic? What was it like in the room with her?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Well, it depends on what you were talking about. I mean, she’s very gracious. You know, if you go to her office in D.C., there’s bowls of Ghirardelli chocolate everywhere. You know, she’s really friendly. But when you sit down to interview her, she’s like, everything she does is very focused. And if she doesn’t like either the question or the way the question is framed or the assumption behind the question, she’ll let you know.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, I talked with her at one point about what I described as the turmoil in the Democratic Party, you know, based on some of the primary battles in some of the states, like Michigan. And she just, you know, she jumped right in and she goes, “I wouldn’t call it turmoil.” It’s not — you know, she will let you know how she feels.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then probably the most contentious conversation I had with her was over her endorsement of Connie Chan in the race to replace her in the congressional race. And, you know, we’re journalists, right? We ask questions, and she really didn’t like the questions. She didn’t like being questioned, her judgment being questioned. You know, and she let me know that in no uncertain terms. And she told me at one point, “You sound like the Chronicle or the Examiner, and they’re irrelevant.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I heard that. It was a great little clip. Susan, what about you? Was there a particular contentious moment in the — I think you sat with her for 11 interviews when you wrote her biography.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> You know, she’s such a tough interview because she is so accustomed to being in control and because she has talking points. It’s really hard to get her off the things that she has said before and that she intends to say.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I was grateful for the interviews that I had, but we had some contentious moments. At one point, when I was asking her some questions about a scandal involving her brother when he was young, she did not think this was an appropriate topic for us to be talking about. She made that clear.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And there was one particular interview where she had just come back from a very combative meeting with the Squad, with those very liberal, then-new members of Congress who were giving her some trouble. And at that point, she wasn’t mad at me, but she was fired up about them. And I’ve got to say, that turned out to be the best interview I had with her.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Scott, did you find, as you were doing this work, that there was a particular theme that ran through her career?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think we’ve kind of alluded to it. I mean, her personal tenacity and discipline, her focus. Her phrase is basically just, “Win, baby.” She is focused on winning, whether it is getting a bill passed or blocking a nomination or impeaching a president or getting your preferred candidate elected in the race to replace you. She is all in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I don’t think she does anything half-heartedly. And so that, I think you see that throughout her entire career, her entire life, really, including when she was younger.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Is she fierce or likable in that role? Both. That’s the thing about Nancy Pelosi. She’s been described as a steel fist in a Gucci glove or the velvet hammer — what a pickier metaphor. She is both very gracious and charming.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think one of the secrets to her rise was her relationships with her caucus. And not just her caucus, but people in general. Gets to know people, their families, their birthdays, their anniversaries, when there’s a death in the family, a divorce, and that personal touch. While she is, yes, she is fierce on your behalf as well as against you if she doesn’t like, you know, where you’re coming from.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Susan, what do you think is at the heart of her legacy? Four decades.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> Four decades. Well, of course, one thing that will be in the first line of every obituary will be that she was the first woman Speaker of the House. She was, and I think remains, the most powerful woman in the history of the American government.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, some would say Kamala Harris was higher ranking because she was vice president, but if you’re looking at political power to get things done, there’s no comparison between those two roles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think she is also an architect of the Affordable Care Act, which was the greatest expansion of health care coverage in a generation, and just generally a force to be reckoned with, including her ability to help lead Democrats to majorities in the House, which enabled her to do all those other things.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Scott, you were here for the last three decades covering government and politics in San Francisco, and you watched Gavin Newsom and Kamala Harris rise, their careers going all the way up to the national stage. What is unique about San Francisco that kind of forges these political candidates like Nancy Pelosi?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> You know, I think San Francisco is a city of about 800,000 people, and it’s been punching above its weight in politics for decades, going all the way back to Phil Burton, you know, who was also a powerhouse representing San Francisco in Congress.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To me, I — it’s several things. You know, it’s being described, San Francisco politics, as a knife fight in a phone booth. Fifty shades of blue. It’s mostly all Democratic, relatively liberal, maybe a little left of center, a little right of center by San Francisco standards.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if you could emerge from that cauldron where you have to go around and talk to the Chinese American Democratic Club and the Raoul Wallenberg Democratic Club and the Arab American Democratic Club and the environmental group, you know, and on and on, and on, you learn how to talk with different constituencies, how to build coalitions, how to take incoming fire.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if you can emerge from that environment, as Dianne Feinstein did, Gavin Newsom did, obviously Nancy Pelosi, Barbara Boxer, to a certain extent, although she was more Marin, you’re kind of prepared for battle.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, and so it really, it’s like — it, it like being on the farm team, you know, and you’ve really learned how to be the, like, best pitcher or whatever hitter or whatever it might be. Uh, so if you emerge from San Francisco, it was like, wow, you’ve been tested.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I love that metaphor. In the very first episode of the series that came out, I think, last Wednesday — our second episode comes out today — so in that first episode, you focus on the 1987 special election. And this is following Sala Burton’s death. Tell us who is Sala Burton. You mentioned the Burton family just a minute ago. And what was her relationship to Nancy Pelosi?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so Sala Burton was married to Phil Burton. Phil Burton almost became the first, you know, Speaker of the House from California. You know, he came just like a couple of votes short of being majority leader, and he was a firebrand. He’s largely responsible for protecting the Northern California coast, the Golden Gate Recreation Act. And he was sort of that architect of coalition politics, bringing in gay people and Asian Americans and labor and Italian Americans and all the rest.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so Sala Burton was married to him, and Phil Burton died suddenly, I think he was 56 years old, of an aneurysm, which was shocking to everybody. And so Sala Burton, as often happens, the widow, took his place and won election and then re-election. But then she got cancer and was dying.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And on her deathbed, she summoned John Burton, her brother-in-law, and also Nancy Pelosi and others. And she said to them, “I want Nancy Pelosi to take my place.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that was shocking. In fact, John Burton told us years later that when she said, “I want Nancy to take my place,” they thought she was talking about Nancy Walker, who was a liberal member of the Board of Supervisors.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It was not at all in their vision, but Sala Burton saw something in Nancy Pelosi that I think more people came to see after she rose in politics.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And what was Nancy Pelosi’s response to that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Well, she said to us, you know, Sala said to me, “I want you to run for my seat, and I want you to tell me right now,” because she was very sick.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Pelosi said, you know, I asked her, “Why had you never thought of running for office?” And she said, “Well, it was like, why had I never gone skydiving?” You know, it’s just — no, no, no. And no, she would work on the inside of politics. Not like she was not familiar with politics, but being the out-front elected official had not occurred to her.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So she had to ask her one remaining daughter at home. She had six kids. And, uh, her daughter, you know, Alexandra, was a teenager at that time, and she said, “What teenage girl wouldn’t want her mother out of the house most of the week?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Padmini Raghunath:\u003c/strong> Go do it, Mama. Get out there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Get out there. Get a life, she said, literally. And so that’s what she had to get the sign-off from her family, but then she was good to go.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And she entered a really intense contest. She was up against Harry Britt, who was another left-leaning candidate. And he had the backing of Harvey Milk’s political movement and the very deeply organized gay community at the time, which was reeling from the AIDS epidemic. Let’s hear a clip from Britt at the —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Harry Britt:\u003c/strong> So I think it’s legitimate for us to point out that the people who care the most about AIDS, and certainly the gay community, which cares in a passionate way about AIDS, is very united behind my candidacy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> But was the gay community skeptical or behind Pelosi? How did they feel about Pelosi?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> You know, there was a split, but I would say, if I had to guess, I would say it was two to one, you know, for Harry Britt. There were some more moderate folks in the gay community, you know, maybe a little more business-oriented, who supported Nancy Pelosi.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And she had key support from the Burton machine, from Art Agnos and Willie Brown and Phil Burton, John Burton, and she had a very savvy campaign operation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, you know, the gay community wanted their own representative, especially during the AIDS epidemic. We had, you know, President Reagan. George Deukmejian was governor, two Republicans, and they wanted somebody to go back to D.C. and fight for them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And they didn’t see — they didn’t know Nancy Pelosi and didn’t think she was the right person to do that. But she promised that that’s what she would do. But they still thought, you know, Harry Britt is the one who’s really going to understand what we need as LGBTQ people in the district.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that’s largely who they voted for, but it wasn’t unanimous by any means.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Let’s hear a clip from a televised 1987 debate that was hosted right here at KQED. It’s featured in the first episode of your series. And this is where Pelosi faces attacks for self-funding and for being a socialite and for being an establishment pick.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Harry Britt:\u003c/strong> And what we have is, we have in this election somebody saying, “The machine backs me. I’ve got a million bucks. I don’t live in your district. I’ve never met many of your slobs, but I’m going to be your new leader because I got bucks and I’m powerful.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Moderator:\u003c/strong> How can she relate to people like me, a single parent, working mother, or somebody else?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Moderator:\u003c/strong> Let’s let Nancy answer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> I don’t think you have to be sick to be a doctor or poor to understand the problems of the poor. I have spent my life committed to the ideals of the Democratic Party.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> We are talking about the legacy of Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who you just heard there in a 1987 debate that happened right here at KQED. We are joined by Scott Shafer, he is senior politics correspondent, and Susan Page is Washington Bureau Chief of \u003cem>USA Today\u003c/em>. We’ll be right back after this break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’d love to hear from you. Do you have a favorite moment or a favorite memory of Nancy Pelosi? Give us a call right now and tell us about it. 866-733-6786. Again, that’s 866-733-6786. We’ll be right back after this break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. We’re talking about the legacy of Speaker Nancy Pelosi. She is about to retire after four decades representing San Francisco in Congress.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We are joined by Scott Shafer. He’s senior politics correspondent right here at KQED. And Susan Page is Washington Bureau Chief for \u003cem>USA Today\u003c/em>. She’s also author of \u003cem>Madam Speaker: Nancy Pelosi and the Lessons of Power\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’d love to hear from you. Tell us about your favorite moment or maybe your favorite memory from Nancy Pelosi’s career. What do you think will be Pelosi’s legacy in your mind?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can email your comments, your questions to \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a> or find us on any of the social platforms, Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram. We’re at KQED Forum. Or you can just give us a call now at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We were just talking there about the special election in 1987. Pelosi outspent the other 13 candidates combined, and she invested more than $200,000 of her own money. She drew on political action committee money, and she argued that raising funds actually offered her political independence. Let’s hear a clip.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Corporate money goes to the Republicans. That’s just the way it is. I mean, I’d probably raise billions of dollars, a couple billion dollars, if it’s not in favor of corporate America, you can just imagine, and certainly not of Wall Street.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I completely, totally disagree that the Democratic Party is dominated by corporate money. It isn’t. And certainly the Democrats vote for gun violence prevention. The Republicans do not. The Democrats vote for protecting the environment. The other people are in the pocket of the fossil fuel industry, as well as the gun industry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So it is a big difference, but we haven’t made that clear. And every poll shows, oh, they think we’re both sort of the same.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Susan, does that pretty much sum it up, or did her perspective on political money ever shift?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> You know, political money has been one of the sources of her power from the start. And of course, even before she was even a candidate, she was a considerably adept fundraiser, including for the Senate campaign committee. And so that is something she has never apologized for, raising money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She’s skilled at raising money from big donors. It was a new generation of politicians that demonstrated how, in an age of social media, you could do that with small donors, Bernie Sanders being a good example of that. But this was a source of Pelosi’s power.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Let’s see if I could just say one more thing that you had asked Scott about why, despite her history in politics, including her family history, she had said she never considered running until Sala Burton suggested it in 1987.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I would say one reason is that she was a member of the Silent Generation, born in 1940, toward the end of the Silent Generation. No expectation that women would run for office.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Her father, the mayor of Baltimore, wanted his sons to run for mayor, but it never occurred to either him or his daughter that she might be a candidate for office. So in that way, she really reflects such big changes, such huge shifts in the American political system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> David writes, “If the Democrats had their act together, we would have elected Nancy Pelosi as president of the USA.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Let’s go back and just wrap up that 1987 race. Obviously, she won. How did she win, Scott? And how did the gay activists at the time take the loss of Britt?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Well, she had a great campaign team. The late Clint Reilly managed it. Marshall Ganz, who was a very skilled organizer, has a history with the United Farm Workers, was part of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And they divided up the city very strategically into groups. They sent separate mailers to different communities. They even quietly slipped some messages to Republican voters. And they knew that the preponderance of the gay vote was going to go to Harry Britt. So they had to figure out how do they piece together a majority from the rest of the city, which they did. But not by a lot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, the gay community was skeptical of her, but when she won the primary, there would then be a runoff in June. But in between the primary and the general in June, she met with gay activists, and not just, you know, as we say, the expensive-sweater crowd, but, you know, really some of ACT UP, some of the more radical members of the community.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I don’t know if they were won over, but I think they were impressed by that first meeting. We have some people like Tom Ammiano in the podcast in that first episode saying that tears were shed by her as she talked with them about what their needs were in the middle of this epidemic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think it took a while, but certainly once that first term in office, the very first thing she did when she was sworn in, the first speech she gave on the House floor, mentioned getting more funding for AIDS.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Let’s go ahead and hear a clip from there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> For peace, for environmental protection, for equal rights, for rights of individual freedom. And now we must take the leadership, of course, in the crisis of AIDS. And I look forward to working with you on that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Susan, how big a deal was it that she brought up AIDS there?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> You know, it’s easy to forget the stigma around AIDS at that point. So 1987, it was not until 1987 that President Reagan gave his first speech about AIDS, even though the disease had emerged six years earlier.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when Pelosi came here and gave her first speech on the House floor after being sworn in and talked about AIDS, it was a time when there were only a handful of members of Congress willing to say the word.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in that way, that is the early attention she got here. A freshman member of Congress of the House, big deal in Washington. I mean, not a big deal in Washington, one who was willing to tackle an issue that most of them avoided, that was kind of a big deal.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Russ writes, “Nancy Pelosi is an amazing woman worthy of respect and a career that merits celebration. But let’s not anoint her as a saint. For example, a strong argument could be made that when she defended her heavy investments in tech companies, including Tesla and Apple, even as she presided as Speaker of the House and controlled legislation that affected those communities, she was normalizing corruption and paving the way for the unbridled corruption of Donald Trump.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Do you agree with that critique, Susan?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> I think that’s definitely a point of vulnerability for her. She resisted the idea of limits on stock sales by members of Congress and their family at a time that the need for that became more and more apparent by what we saw some members of Congress do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> The second episode of the series focuses on Baltimore’s Little Italy and her parents. That was Mayor Tommy D’Alessandro and Annunciata, or Big Nancy, her mom was named.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Susan, you spoke with Rahm Emanuel and he told you that she is 99% D’Alessandro and 1% Pelosi. Excuse me, that should have said — I should have — that was Scott. Scott said that, my bad there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> He might have said it’s Susan also.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> How would you say her parents, these characters, influenced her career in that statement there, you know, 99% D’Alessandro?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, it was the family business, you know, hanging out with her mother, Big Nancy. You know, and watching her. Susan Page wrote about this, and I can’t recommend her book too much, \u003cem>Madam Speaker\u003c/em>, terrific. It was super helpful to us in putting the podcast together. It’s a great read with some amazing stories.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, you know, she talked, Susan, in her book about the favor file, which was basically keeping track of what have you done for constituents? What do they owe you? You know, and then we got election time. Okay, remember that time we, you know, got your, you know, brother-in-law into the hospital or whatever it might be.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so that, you know, management of the favor file was really critical. And she learned the importance of loyalty. You know, you got to dance with the one that brought you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so I think she just really — and just bare-knuckles political style. I mean, her father was involved. There had been a number of kind of like — I don’t want to say scandals, but there were some questionable issues around the way he ran the city on occasion. Susan can tell you more about that, but, you know, I think that is where she learned the nuts and bolts of constituent services, winning, and counting votes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> She really knew how to play the game is what I’m hearing you say.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, it wasn’t a game, you know, it was serious business and getting re-elected time and time again. Her brother also became mayor of Baltimore. So, you know, it was, you know, was like, you know, some kids are out playing baseball. She was out playing politics.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Kevin in San Francisco writes, “I met Nancy Pelosi last weekend at Swenson’s Ice Cream, and I took the opportunity to tell her I am the grandson of a Holocaust survivor and I’m not satisfied with her response to Israel’s attacks on Gaza. I asked how she felt about the issue as a grandparent. She didn’t give me a very satisfying answer and I was eventually cut off by her security detail.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Susan, was that a big critique of hers, how she handled the Middle East?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> Well, I do not think that’s been the focus of a lot of attention when you think about the big things that Pelosi has done. This is an issue that’s become, of course, enormously controversial now, given Israel’s actions against Gaza.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I do think — here’s one thing I think is interesting. I think it’s interesting that a former Speaker of the House, number one, is going out for ice cream. I can guarantee you she got chocolate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Number two, was willing to engage with someone who was giving her — challenging her, even if he eventually got cut off by security detail. That is, like, reasonably unusual these days.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think one source of Pelosi’s strength, and Scott would know this better than I, was the fact that she kept pretty grounded in her district and she was back there all the time, even though it meant those cross-country flights.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I would totally agree with that. You know, she was in the district all the time, cutting ribbons, going to town hall meetings, funerals, whatever it might be. She was very visible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, Kevin McCarthy, not so much, you know, when he was Speaker. You know, it is a schlep, you know, to fly all the way back out to the district. But even some members of Congress on the East Coast, they get kind of comfortable in their seats, like Joe Crowley did when he was running for re-election and AOC beat him because he was never in the district.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so Pelosi learned the importance of being visible, making sure you’re present when you need to be so people remember you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Hit the pavement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Carol writes, “You obviously went so deep on Nancy Pelosi. What surprised you most about her?” This is for Susan.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> Ah, uh, you know, she’s, uh, she — here’s, here’s what struck me. I’ve covered Washington for a long time. I was in Washington when she arrived. Uh, I have covered 12 presidential elections.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Nancy Pelosi is the person I’ve — who is the most comfortable with power. She is the more comfortable with how to amass power. And once you have it, how to keep it. And once you’ve kept it, how to use it. And that is… quite remarkable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So in some ways, when, you know, everyone says first woman Speaker of the House, that’s certainly true. She was, in fact, one of the most effective congressional leaders in the history of the United States, male or female.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Scott, Pelosi announced her bid for Democratic whip in 2001. Just for those who might not follow politics, what is a whip and why did Pelosi want that specific job?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Well, it was the next leadership position available on the rung. You know, it goes whip, you know, majority leader, Speaker or minority leader, Speaker. And so that was the position that was open.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, at that time, there were a lot of men there. All the leadership was men up to that point. And there were people like Steny Hoyer, who was from Maryland, who thought it was kind of his turn. Others agreed it was his turn, and so she said, “No, I’m going to run. I’m gonna break into the line,” basically.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I’m not going to wait around. I’ve paid my dues.” They kept saying, “Well, you have to pay your dues.” She said, “I paid my dues,” you know, from before I got into Congress. Raising money to help elect Democrats to the Senate and being chair of the Democratic Party in California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, you know, she really wasn’t — she saw that the people who were in charge didn’t have a plan to win. You know, she had seen them lose the House for the first time in 40 years in 1994, and then ’96, ’98, and then 2000. They kept losing, you know, and so she said, “Look, we’ve got to win here. And so I’ve got a plan.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Let’s hear a clip there where she was quite impatient during that time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> ’94, ’96, ’98. I was like, there’s no plan to win. It was more of an attitude thing, like the pendulum will swing, but I didn’t see really a decision to have it be a wrecking ball, not a pendulum, a wrecking ball.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You decide to win, and then you make every decision in favor of winning. Quite frankly, I’m really tired of losing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Susan, how was her appetite for that kind of confrontation? How was it viewed?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> You know, Republicans came to fear her. I can tell you Democrats came to fear her, too, during that early whip race. She was not welcomed to run. Congress was overwhelmingly male, pretty staid in terms of climbing the ladder of leadership.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And she just, in the end, ignored them and went and waged a race and won the race on the basis of the size of the California delegation, and that was a big asset. Her support among some of the women who were serving in Congress and the fact that she could raise money. And she turned that into winning the whip race.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And with the whip race, that set her on the path that led her to eventually be Speaker. It set Democrats on the pathway that enabled them to regain a majority.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> You know, one thing I would add to that, everything Susan just said is absolutely true. The other kind of ace in the hole that she had, the secret sauce or secret weapon, was a congressman from Pennsylvania named Jack Murtha, very popular, pretty conservative, his sort of coal-country representative.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He was for her. And I think that stunned — that sent a signal to all of these male, longtime members of Congress, like, oh, she’s serious. I mean, she’s got Murtha.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Murtha actually helped run the campaign for whip for her. And it was just, you know, it was an indication of her ability to really work with diverse members of the Democratic Party. You know, they didn’t agree on everything, which he ended up being very helpful to her later when, you know, or actually before that, on the Presidio, when the base closed and turning it into a park and nonprofits and that kind of thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So they knew each other. And she really — he really respected her. And, you know, he saw her focus on winning. And so he went with her.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Anne Marie writes, “Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi is a rare, precious gem. Not only is she consistently gracious, but she is effective in accomplishing things for the people. I met her over 30 years ago as another human being. When I met, she warmly remembers me and my family to this day. Stellar human. What a blessing to live in San Francisco during her lifetime.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Christopher writes, “Nancy Pelosi is popular among liberals, but she supported every single war and every military spending increase. This undermined the domestic agenda. She also killed the Green New Deal and fought against Medicare for All.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What do you think? We would love to hear from listeners. We’d love to know maybe a favorite memory, your critiques or your praise for Nancy Pelosi. What do you think her legacy will be? Do you think the Democratic Party is ready to go on without her?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can email your comments, your questions to \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. You can find us on Discord, on Bluesky, on Facebook, on Instagram, or at KQED Forum. Or you can just give us a call right now at 866-733-6786. 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Susan, she challenged Steny Hoyer and she broke traditional seniority lines when she did that. Talk about that moment and how did Democrats respond to that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> And, Lesley, if I could just make the point that there’s one inaccuracy in the comment that you just read about Nancy Pelosi’s record on war. Lots of things to criticize about Pelosi, no question. That’s certainly fair game.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Nancy Pelosi supported the war in Afghanistan. She opposed the war on Iraq from the start. She was the highest-ranking Democratic official in Congress to oppose the invasion of Iraq when it began. She called that one the biggest mistake made in the history of the United States, although she said that before President Trump was president. I don’t know if she would amend that statement now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But she served — she was very proud of having served on the Intelligence Committee because she said it gave her insights into what was actually going on, on things like the lead-up to the war in Iraq. And on that, she did take a stand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now with Steny Hoyer, I would say that if you talk to Steny Hoyer today, some of the wounds from that whip race remain with both of them. You know, that was the kind of race that the people involved on both sides will never forget.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> We are talking about the legacy of Nancy Pelosi as she approaches retirement after the 2026 midterm elections. Let’s sneak in a really quick call. You gotta be quick, Stuart.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stuart:\u003c/strong> Hi. I’m just feeling really nostalgic because so many milestones in my life are connected to this chapter in Nancy Pelosi’s career.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I met my husband at an election house party for Harry Britt for Congress in 1987. So obviously we were Harry Britt supporters, but Nancy won us over with that first speech on the floor of the House when she talked about HIV/AIDS.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Our key aide, Steve Morin, originally an opponent in that race, but he became a key staffer and together they championed the Ryan White CARE Act, which made all the difference in HIV/AIDS funding in this country. Steve later became my boss at UCSF.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m really going to miss Nancy being in Congress, though, because every time I’ve heard she’s been there 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, I know I have an anniversary coming up with my husband. We’ve made it 39 years together — my husband and Nancy and I.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Congratulations, Stuart. That is so beautiful. Really, congratulations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ll be right back after this break. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. We are talking about Speaker Nancy Pelosi and her legacy after four decades representing San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I want to bring Padmini Raghunath into the conversation. She is the series editor for the podcast that we’re talking about called \u003cem>The Speaker\u003c/em>. This is what Scott Shafer and her worked on together. Scott Shafer is also joining us. He’s senior politics correspondent here at KQED. And we’re also joined by Susan Page. She is Washington bureau chief for \u003cem>USA Today\u003c/em>, and author of \u003cem>Madam Speaker: Nancy Pelosi and the Lessons of Power\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Padmini, the last few episodes of this series, they’re not actually out yet. Just number two is out today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Padmini Raghunath:\u003c/strong> Number one and two are out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> This third episode is going to be about the Affordable Care Act. Why did you devote a whole episode to that specifically?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Padmini Raghunath:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much for having me on, first of all. And I also wanted to mention, it wasn’t just the two of us. We also have a brilliant producer named Ariella Markowitz, who we couldn’t have done this without, obviously. Shout-out to Ariella. And a whole team behind us also.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, yeah, I mean, we only had five episodes. And it was kind of a big move to devote a whole episode to the passage of the Affordable Care Act. And of course, aside from it being kind of Pelosi’s achievement, her legacy, it’s also, to me as an editor, kind of a really interesting sausage-making moment, if that makes sense.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the first two episodes are really devoted to her accumulating power, kicking down the doors, as we’ve been talking about. And this third episode is this moment where, okay, now you’re here. What does it actually take to get a bill like that passed?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, it’s kind of interesting to work on something historical because, you know, we’re always looking for tension, having people sitting on the edge of their seats. But we, I feel like, kind of maybe achieved that just by going beat by beat. You know, how do you have to, like, bob and weave through D.C. politics, basically, to get something like this passed?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then, of course, I mean, the Affordable Care Act ended up becoming this sort of lightning rod for controversy and arguably the Tea Party movement and, you know, all sorts of sort of effects, run-on effects, that we’re still feeling today. And so it was also important to kind of situate that, I think, to help understand our current moment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> To talk about those right-wing movements, but before we move on from the ACA, Scott, do you think that Pelosi had to really compromise on her own values to get it across the line?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> She would say no. You know, the Affordable Care Act, first of all, the president and Rahm Emanuel and David Axelrod, they weren’t even sure that now was the time. This is like in the middle of the mortgage meltdown, and, you know, the economy was not doing well, was just maybe beginning to recover.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so getting this thing through Congress was very difficult. It was a huge bill, a huge change. And of course, the obstacle was the Senate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, the Democrats, if you can believe it, at that time had 60 votes in the Senate, which was a filibuster-proof majority. But then Ted Kennedy died. And so they went down to 59. They temporarily had 60. But they also had Joe Lieberman, who was one of the Democrats from Connecticut, which is the home to a lot of insurance companies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And he would not vote for the public option, which is something that Pelosi and her caucus really wanted as a separate option for people to get on the marketplace that would compete with insurance plans out there, would be subsidized by the government. And, you know, thinking was it would drive down price, would provide competition.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Senate version did not have that. And Pelosi was just a pragmatist, like, look, we’re stuck with this Senate bill because, you know, we just have to amend it. We have to fix it to make it more palatable to us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And there were a lot of compromises in that. You know, I think some people, you know, some earlier caller or a listener commented on the Green New Deal. You know, Pelosi, who dismissed that as the Green New Dream or something, you know, she’s like all about what can you get done? What can we get?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And she knew what she could get enough votes for in the Senate, what she could get votes for enough in the House. Abortion, you know, navigating that was a big issue. So, you know, she, she did everything she could to get the best bill possible from a Democratic point of view.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that, you know, sausage-making that Padmini alluded to, that’s politics, you know.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Let’s hear from a caller, Lois in Piedmont. You’re on the air.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lois:\u003c/strong> And, uh, I’m delighted to say that when I was — I’m an Emerge alum, which is a Democratic training program for pro-choice women — and our executive director, Kimberly Ellis, at the time, we were at the state convention in Southern California and she invited Nancy Pelosi to be our woman to talk to us about leadership and politics.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I just remember she had just passed the — she, and I call it she, the Affordable Care Act — and she’s talking to me privately, she’s looking me in the face, and I was just like so inspired by that, to a woman leader who, of course, represents the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I was, at the time, campaigning to be a trustee for the County Board of Education in Alameda County, and I was just so inspired by her.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then recently, I got to see her when Belva Davis was acknowledged. And I said, you know, “Can you keep working?” And she said, “No. Enjoy your time,” and I hope I can eat her for ice cream as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I hope you get to meet her for ice cream as well, Lois. Let’s stay with the phones. Shannon in San Francisco, you’re on the air.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shannon:\u003c/strong> Hi. Yeah. Um, so I was born and raised in San Francisco. I’m a U.S. Navy service-connected disabled veteran, and I worked for a nonprofit called Swords to Plowshares.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I have to admit that Nancy Pelosi has been one of the most ardent supporters of veterans, veterans issues, veterans benefits, and the Department of Veterans Affairs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And she’s one of those few people — not woman, not man, just few people — who never served, never was in the military, and has always been there for this population more so than, like, John McCain or Bob Dole, who actually were in the military.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And regardless of all her faults, I have to give it to her for being there for people like myself. That’s really about it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I’m so glad that you had her support, Scott. It sounds like you want to —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, I wish I had a dollar for every press release I got where Nancy Pelosi was going to be at Swords to Plowshares doing something. She was there an awful lot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, you know, kind of in reference to that earlier comment from a listener that she supported every war. And as Susan correctly pointed out, she voted against the Iraq war, but she refused to cut funding for the troops once they were there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She didn’t like the war. She was highly critical of President Bush over that. And it was part of their platform for winning back the majority in 2006.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But she’s also very patriotic. I think that’s maybe something people don’t know about Nancy Pelosi. Her favorite holiday, according to her, is Memorial Day. She loves to acknowledge the role of veterans and people who serve this country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And people don’t necessarily identify the liberal Democrat from San Francisco in that way. But she is very much patriotic. We haven’t talked about her faith. She’s very religious. And so that’s very much a part of who she is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Susan, we were just talking before this little thread. We were talking about the rise of the Tea Party movement, of these right-wing movements that came out of the passage of the ACA. This is Trump. This is MAGA. How did Pelosi respond when these right-wing movements began to grow?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> They began to grow and, of course, they targeted her. She became a great fundraising tool for some of these farther-right groups that began to grow.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think she found them flummoxing because Pelosi’s agenda was to get some stuff done and agree with what she wanted to get done or not, but that was what she wanted to do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the idea that there were these people running for office at the other end of the political spectrum who were getting elected with the promise that the government would not do things and would peel back on things it was already doing was something I think she found very hard to understand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Barbara writes, “I loved it when Nancy Pelosi ripped up Trump’s State of the Union speech in front of everyone during his first administration.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Scott, we have a clip of you asking Speaker Pelosi about why she went forward with the impeachment of Trump. This is the first time when she knew it was going to fail in the Senate. Let’s hear that clip.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Why did you think it was important to go ahead and really start a process that you knew ultimately you would not?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> We did succeed. We impeached him twice. But you think that we should be guided by what the Senate might do? You think that the president has committed impeachable offenses of the highest magnitude and we shouldn’t do that because we don’t know what some senators are going to do? No.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> You can hear the contempt in her voice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> In her voice. She is not a fan of the Senate, I can tell you that. How did it feel to be on the other end of that pushback in that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Oh, that was nothing. I mean, you know, that was fairly mild. I mean, I, you know, and that’s, that’s just Pelosi. You know, she, she’s really — she has a position. She, she will, you know, sort of undercut the premise of your question if she doesn’t like it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, she’s, she is very focused on the House. The House’s responsibility is, you know, oversight, and they have the power to impeach. And that’s what they did.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And she wasn’t about looking down the road to see whether it would pass the Senate, which I’m sure she knew it wouldn’t. But she wanted to go, you know, maybe go down in history as having, quote-unquote, “done the right thing,” to try to hold the president accountable when he had committed — that was the phone call with the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelensky, you know, kind of a quid pro quo, military aid for investigating Hunter Biden and Joe Biden.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, you know, she just saw that as her role. That one was — that one was a relatively mild brushback.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> You know, and the fact is, she had pushed back on impeachment for a long time. There was a lot of energy in the Democratic caucus to impeach Trump that she held back on because she thought that politically it was not going to succeed and that was going to carry some costs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But once that phone call came out, and then the second time around, after the January 6 riot, she felt, I think, she didn’t have any choice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Let’s go back to the phones. Val in San Francisco, you’re on the air.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Val:\u003c/strong> Hi, I’m a San Franciscan, born and raised, and I’m about the same age as Nancy Pelosi, but maybe a little younger.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I remember her from so long ago, and in the ’80s and ’90s there was — I was very ill, and I needed medical care. And I got it because Nancy Pelosi had a childhood health care initiative for children, and I was — and a lot of other people were able to get care because of that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you know, that reminds me of another story that was in our first episode. Mike Schriver, who supported Harry Britt in that first campaign, but got to know Pelosi and went to her office with a friend who needed to get onto some experimental drug treatment trial because he had AIDS.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And she also helped him. Mike Schriver, and he has some very poignant stories about her. I still am in touch with him to this day, and he really credits Nancy Pelosi and the Ryan White CARE Act for his being alive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> As you heard there, we are talking about the legacy of Speaker Nancy Pelosi, four decades representing San Francisco. Lesley McClurg, I’m sitting in today for Mina Kim, and you are listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We have lots of comments coming in here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Nancy writes, “My favorite Pelosi moment is her standing up to the San Francisco Archbishop’s announcement that she was prohibited from receiving Holy Communion. She was dignified, and he looked like a foolish misogynist.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Let’s see, Roger writes, “Here lies the difference between corporate liberals and the progressive culture that was snuffed out of San Francisco and the neighborhoods like the Mission that were intentionally knocked down and replaced like SoMa and the North Mission. Pelosi and Feinstein’s massive corporate money led that battle.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Is that true, Scott?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Which part of that? I mean, fair, fair. Yeah, I mean, she believes — she talks all the time about Citizens United, the Supreme Court decision that allowed an influx, a huge influx of money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But she also has raised a boatload of money, one of the most prolific fundraisers in congressional history. And there are people who don’t like some of the places she’s gotten money from.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I think her point is, look, we’re not going to tie one hand behind our backs just because we don’t have all the money. We’re not going to be disadvantaged. We can try to change the system, but this is the system. And we’re going to have to play in that arena.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Susan, big question for you here. I mean, Pelosi is going to be gone by the first of the year. Where does the Democratic Party leadership go from here?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Page:\u003c/strong> That is a big question, and that is not determined because there is a division in the Democratic Party now between the energy of some of these very progressive voices that have succeeded in Democratic primaries from Michigan to Maine, and of course in California as well, and more moderate Democrats, more centrist Democrats who worry that the Democrats will blow what looks like a nicely set table for the 2028 presidential election if they nominate someone too far left to appeal in some of the more conservative heartland states.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is — we are at the beginning of a war over the direction of the Democrats. And this is a war that will be waged without Nancy Pelosi on the front lines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> But, Padmini, what else is in the series? What are you guys gonna tackle?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Padmini Raghunath:\u003c/strong> In these final episodes. So I mentioned that our third episode, which is coming out next Wednesday, is about the Affordable Care Act and sort of the seeds of the Tea Party movement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And of course, as history comes closer to us, it starts to feel like a pointillist painting or something. It’s harder to see it. And so we just kind of had to be honest about that. And hearing some of the criticisms also coming in today, we weren’t afraid to shy away from that either.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the fourth episode addresses something that our producer, Ariella, heard a lot when she went and did Vox in D.C., which was — we are addressing the ban on stock trading in the fourth episode, and these sort of internal divisions that Susan Page just described, in addition to the impeachment in episode four and January 6th, which stacked episode.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Sounds good. Lots of coverage.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Padmini Raghunath:\u003c/strong> And then the fifth episode is really, um, I would say kind of — it’s about you, Scott, a little bit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> You know, I mean, you know, our careers in some ways overlapped. I very well — I mean, not to compare myself or my legacy to hers, but, you know, I’ve seen that first campaign and so you’re kind of putting it into context.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re now involved in a very vigorous election to replace her. You know, she and I kind of had a contentious back-and-forth about that. And so it’s a reflection, I think, of, you know, her legacy, how she got there, where she’s leaving the Democratic Party, which, as Susan Page just said, is kind of in a bit of a civil war right now, her role in that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, she’s definitely been concerned about, you know, some of the nominees in the Democratic Party, like, you know, Abdul El-Sayed in Michigan. And so we’re going to find out in November, you know, how does a more progressive candidate fare in a place like Michigan?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So some of those questions about 2028 are going to maybe not resolve, but we’ll have more data points. And so the fifth episode talks a little bit about some of those things as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Padmini Raghunath:\u003c/strong> I would just jump in and add really quickly. I think it’s also about certainty versus uncertainty, like the role of a politician versus the role of a journalist, which, you know, for her to have accomplished what she did, she had to be certain that it was going to happen, even if maybe she had her private doubts. That’s just what she had to do and project.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And our job is to ask questions about that. So, that’s maybe a little tease.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> And analyze how things worked out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Given that we are, though, on the precipice of this election, what’s happening? Who’s running? Give us a little summary of who’s up for her seat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So the primary was interesting. There were three candidates, including Shoykat Chakrabarti, who was AOC’s chief of staff. And right before the primary, Pelosi endorsed Connie Chan, in part, I think, because she really wanted to make sure Chakrabarti wasn’t there. She was one of many people who got him fired, basically, from his job in Congress.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so she succeeded and, you know, Chan did very well. So now it’s Chan versus Scott Wiener, state senator from San Francisco, openly gay. He finished first in the primary by quite a few points.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Pelosi has really put her foot on the pedal. She’s helping Connie Chan with fundraising, boosting her campaign in many, many ways. She’s even calling some of Scott Wiener’s endorsers, trying to get them to change their mind, Dolores Huerta in particular.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so it’s not so much a generational question, I think, because they’re — Chan’s a little younger than Wiener, but they’re both under 60.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I think it’s going to be really about who can get things done. What kind of person do you want to follow in the footsteps of Nancy Pelosi, who has been a legendary representative for San Francisco for the past four decades? What are the qualities you’re looking for? What are qualities Democrats feel are needed right now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Big shoes to fill there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You just heard from Scott Shafer again. His new podcast’s second episode dropped today, three more to come. The title is \u003cem>The Speaker\u003c/em>. His producer — or editor, I should say — is Padmini Raghunath. She is also obviously involved in that, \u003cem>The Speaker\u003c/em>. And Susan Page also joined us, Washington Bureau Chief for \u003cem>USA Today\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks so much for listening. Have a great day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Announcer:\u003c/strong> Funds for the production of \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> are provided by the Generosity Family Fund and the members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Tuesday, September 22, 2026 at 10 am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Actor Ke Huy Quan’s family fled post-war Vietnam and lived in a Hong Kong refugee camp before his unlikely turn as an iconic 1980s child star. He stumbled into a casting call for “Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom” at 12 years old, then rolled right into “The Goonies.” But as he transitioned into adulthood, roles started drying up. After decades of rejection, Quan made an Oscar-winning comeback in “Everything Everywhere All at Once.” In his new memoir, “Never Say Die,” Quan shares his forty-year journey of perseverance and self-discovery.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan,\u003c/strong> Academy Award-winning actor; author, “Never Say Die”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. When Ke Huy Quan walked on stage in 2023 to accept the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor in \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>, he did not hold back tears.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Thank you. My mom is 84 years old and she’s at home watching. Mom, I just won an Oscar.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> For Quan, his path to Hollywood’s highest honor included decades of painful self-doubt and very few roles, this after a big-screen debut in the ’80s at the age of 12 as Short Round in \u003cem>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Short Round, step on it! Okie dokie, Dr. Jones, hold onto your potato!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It’s a journey Quan chronicles in his new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. And he joins me now. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, Ke.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Mina, hey, thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Oh, it’s so wonderful to have you and to have been able to learn so much about your life, especially starting out as the kid that I, you know, maybe the first Asian kid actor I ever saw in a film, Short Round.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Ha, ha, ha! Well, I’m very proud of that. I don’t know if that’s a good thing or not. It just goes to show you how underrepresented we were back then.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you write actually in your book that it was a moment when you got that part, when your life split into a clear before and after. First, can you just talk about getting that part in 1983? Because it was basically accidental, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yes, it was. It was only a few years since we immigrated to Chinatown, Los Angeles, and I was busy acclimating into this new life, learning this new language. And we were ESL students, so we would go on every Saturday morning to get extra help with vocabulary and reading comprehension.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And normally it’s really quiet until that one Saturday while we were studying. We noticed that people kept showing up, more and more people. It was parents with their kids heading into the building, and it really piqued my little brother David’s interest. And he said, “Hey, what’s going on?” And our tutors said, “Didn’t you see the flyers everywhere? They’re looking for a Chinese kid to be in a big Hollywood movie.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that was the first time we heard it. And after the tutoring session, my brother wanted to go check out to see what’s going on and wanted to give it a try, and I tagged along. Walked into a hallway filled with Asian kids reciting lines that they were told to memorize, and that’s how it all began.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and you were feeling like, so David signs up to do this and you are feeling like he’s not really bringing it, right? What the casting directors are asking for, so you start coaching—\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> In front of the casting directors? Here’s the thing. It actually came out of my love for my brother. We would watch TV and reenact scenes together, so I know how good he can be. But being in front of the camera, I felt like he was a little nervous and he was holding back. And the casting directors weren’t seeing him the way I see him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And thinking that they don’t understand Cantonese, so I just jumped out of the chair and started screaming at him, you know, in Cantonese, kind of directing him what to do. And unbeknownst to me, their attention started to turn to me. So when my brother finished, they asked me if I would stay behind and read for them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Incredible. And then, of course, you know, they knew right then that they had their Short Round. And you also talk about auditioning in front of Steven Spielberg and Harrison Ford and George Lucas and how they really embraced you as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But this was not an experience that you had had leading up to this. Let’s talk about the before, living in post-war Vietnam and needing to flee with your family in 1977. Why did you make that decision? What was happening? Or why did your parents make that decision?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Well, you know, this is 1977, post-Vietnam War, and our lives prior to that were really good. I mean, my parents were successful middle-class business people, and they had every intention of building a life for all of us there. And when that future looked bleak, they had no choice but to make the incredibly difficult decision to get all of us out of there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, and it was, uh, it was really traumatic. I was only seven years old. I didn’t know what was going on. I wasn’t given any information. Uh, all I knew was one day I was playing with my little brother and the next, being woken up in the middle of the night, being carried over my dad’s shoulder and carried into a waiting car.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that was our very first attempt to escape. We made a total of three attempts. The first two were unsuccessful and landed me in jail. So by the time I turned eight, I had spent, you know, the first time three weeks, the second time three months in jail, and it was not until the third attempt, then as long as you can pay, you would have a spot on the ship and everything was out in the open.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and your family’s savings have been confiscated when you were arrested, and incredibly, spending that much time in jail as a little kid. But as you say, he gets the money to secure passage, basically in the cargo hold of a boat, by borrowing it. And you’re with 3,000 others packed in, experiencing bouts of seasickness and so on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But talk about when you finally make it to Hong Kong. The country won’t take you in, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah. After we spent seven treacherous days, you know, out in the South China Sea — you understand, this was winter. Almost all of us were city people, never been on a boat before, so those waves were big and the boat was rocking, like, really violently. Pretty much every single one of us were vomiting left and right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when we finally made it to Hong Kong, we thought that, wow, we had made it now. You know, everything’s gonna be all right. But once we got there, we got the terrible news that the Hong Kong government would not allow us to come on board. And we were desperate. We were hungry. The sanitation was really awful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And we ended up spending more than a month on the shore of Hong Kong, while this incredible organization called United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, UNHCR, stepped in and worked with countries all over the world to convince Hong Kong that if they were to allow us to come ashore, that they would help to get us off of their hands.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that’s what happened. And we ended up spending more than a year in a refugee camp.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to invite listeners into the conversation. Listen, we’re talking with Ke Huy Quan, Academy Award-winning actor for \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em> and now the author of a new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. Maybe you remember seeing him in \u003cem>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom\u003c/em> or as Data in \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, or are familiar with his recent voicing of Gary De’Snake in \u003cem>Zootopia 2\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Tell us what your questions are for Ke, what you want to say, what your favorite movies of his are or his work, or what parts of Ke’s story resonate with you, maybe feel similar to yours. You can email forum@kqed.org, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786. Again, that’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, one of the stories of the most painful memories of rejection in Hong Kong that really struck me was when you actually go to your aunt’s home to visit, to have a meal with her and her family. Can you talk about what happened there?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yes. My mom was born in Hong Kong, so her family lives in Hong Kong. And one day, you know, the refugee camp that we stayed in, we were allowed to go in and out. My older siblings were allowed to go work, so they were all supporting themselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And being the youngest of six with my dad, I didn’t have much to do. So one day when I found out that my aunt invited me and my sister to a home to have dinner, I was so excited. My dad bought me a brand-new outfit, and I hadn’t had a home-cooked meal in, you know, months. And here I am, you know, getting invited to my mom’s sister, older sister’s apartment. And I thought that, you know, she looked like my mom and I thought everything was going to be great.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When I sat down to have dinner, I didn’t understand what the Hong Kong culture was like. Everybody had their own customized pair of chopsticks with their name on it. But I was so excited, I was hungry. I sat and started eating and literally didn’t know that I was actually using my cousin’s pair of chopsticks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I was called out on it right away. And I witnessed my aunt took the very same pair of chopsticks that I had used into the kitchen, washed it extensively, and poured hot boiling water over it. And at that age, I didn’t understand why she did that. I thought we were family.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, of course, many years later, uh… I understand. I don’t think she was trying to hurt me in any other way, but it was just this fear that everyone had, you know, we were refugees, and there was that stigma that comes with it. And because of little information that was known about all of us, I mean, she thought that we would carry disease. And, yeah, it was — it was, you know, a moment that I never forgot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, it’s a moment you never got — you finally reunite with your mom and siblings in Los Angeles’ Chinatown in ’79. They had gone ahead and you had been separated from them. But how does that experience shape your sort of sense of self or your place in the world early on? And we’re coming up on a break. Sorry about that, Ke, but we just have about 30 seconds.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Uh, it really, you know, when I sat down and write this book, it really made me confront my own identity, uh, and as a refugee and what that label carried. And for so many years, I was really ashamed of it. Um, I didn’t know, you know, I think it really shaped who I am today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we’re talking with Ke Huy Quan. And so are you, listeners, at 866-733-6786, on our social channels at KQED Forum, and you can email Forum at kqed.org. More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. We’re talking this hour with actor Ke Huy Quan, who played Waymond in 2022’s \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>, which he won the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor. He has a new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. And here’s a clip of a press interview Ke gave in 1984 about getting the part of Short Round in \u003cem>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I think I changed a lot and I was a bold people and now I get to make the movie. Do you think you’ve been very lucky? Yes, definitely. I think I’m very lucky, and I’m number seven in my family. That’s a lucky number.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What’s it like to hear that, Ke, or voice?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I’m so precocious. And I think that’s how I got the role too, I’m sure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That played a big part. Well, we’ve got a call coming in from Lubna in Palo Alto. Lubna, join us. You’re on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much. I wanted to just congratulate the guest on his success and just overcoming so much in his life and being successful. It’s wonderful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We are of South Asian descent, and my son is just embarking on his acting career after graduating from school, college. And we know that Brown people are having a moment. But we don’t know how long this moment will last. And we were just wondering, what advice do you have for someone just starting out, you know, Indian-Pakistani descent, trying to land roles and get noticed and, you know, where, of course, still the majority of roles do not go to people of minority descent?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Great question. Thanks for calling in. Yeah, I mean, you know, if I’m being honest, it is very difficult. And my advice is that you have to be prepared for a lot of rejections. And make sure that the belief you have in yourself doesn’t waver. And work really hard. Don’t give up and don’t let anybody… you know, tell you anything different.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think it’s really important. If you look at my story, you know, I wouldn’t be here talking to you if I didn’t persevere. A lot of times, you know, we don’t know what’s right around the corner. But if we stop, we’ll never see it. So we have to always keep going and work really hard and be patient because, you know, I believe that everyone — you know, everyone has their own time and that time will come one day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, talk about what happened in those years after \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> and \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, right? Another big hit and the film you reference in your title, \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. You know, after that, you wanted nothing more than to be an actor, but pretty quickly, like within a few years, the roles, the calls, they just stopped.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you know, my career went south rather quickly. I mean, you would think, you know, to start at 12 years old and having done \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> and \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, too, hugely popular movies, that I would have a very bright future. But by the time I turned 18 years old, when everybody is very optimistic on what their path would look like, mine looked very different.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, and I didn’t really know, you know, what I would do. But there was one thing I was sure of, was that I wanted to be an actor. In fact, I was only 13 when I knew I wanted to be an actor for the rest of my life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, those years were very hard. But luckily, you know, I never forgot what inspired me, because every time I got dejected… I would go to the movie theater and I would watch a great movie, a great performance by an actor. I would be totally immersed in it and I would walk out feeling so motivated and I’ll go back home, lock myself in the room and start playing out those scenes that I love, kind of reenact, kind of put myself in that character’s shoes and try to, you know, and have my own moment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think it’s the movie theater that really kept my passion alive all these years. But they were not easy years. It wasn’t a short time. It was a very long time. I call them the quiet years in my book.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and then they last about 30 years. I was struck by the story of you talking about hitting puberty and your voice changing, but not in the way that most people’s voices change.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I remember when I had to go back to public school because I wasn’t working anymore. And I would, you know, the first three days I would show up at the cafeteria and I didn’t have any friends and I felt so alone. And I felt like just because of my fame in the movies that I had done, I felt everyone was watching me. Maybe they weren’t, but it felt like that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I lasted no more than three days, and then I would get in my car and then just then every lunchtime I would go to McDonald’s. I would go to the drive-thru and order a hamburger, french fries and a Coke, and the lady that works there would always say, “Oh, thank you, ma’am. Please pull up to the first window.” It was always “ma’am.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, I realized that I sound like — yeah, I sound very different than I imagined. And then I would go back the next day and I would try to speak a little bit lower voice. “Hey, yes, uh…”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> “Can I have a hamburger, french fries and a Coke, please?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it will be the same thing: “Thank you, ma’am. Please pull up to the first window.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> All right, you said your voice went higher when you were eating.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> But you know, it’s interesting because I remember there’s a story that I tell in the book. This was like after Michael Jackson had come to visit \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em> and he invited all of us to his Victory Tour. And one day, just out of the blue, I got a call from him and my brother picked it up and I was in the other room and he screamed really loud, “Ke! Some girl is looking for you!”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, and, uh, and I just realized, I guess that’s the, you know, that’s the, um, uh, little thing that Michael Jackson and I have in common, which sound a bit different.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The other thing that you did that I think also speaks to the struggle of that time is you changed your name to Jonathan. And can you also tell the story about sort of the awkwardness of seeing your former castmate from \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, Sean Astin, who asks you about changing your name?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, uh, I was 18 years old and I just got naturalized, so I was going to become an American citizen. Uh, so, you know, I’m filling out all these paperwork and it was at the same time my manager had suggested for some time that I should change to a more American-sounding name, and also it didn’t sound like a bad idea at that time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because every time I would walk into a casting room, my fame and my name would always walk in before I did. And I felt like my past was holding me back. It wasn’t helping me in any way. It was kind of hindering me from getting the opportunities that I wanted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I thought, yeah, it sounds like a great idea. So that’s what I did. I mean, honestly, at that point in my life, I would have done anything to change the status quo.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because everywhere I look, everyone was doing so well, my co-stars from \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, Sean Astin, Corey Feldman, and all the child actors that I grew up with. They were all doing movies and TV shows, one after the other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And there was one moment when I walked on the set of \u003cem>Encino Man\u003c/em>, and Sean was the star of that movie. I had a very small role, and we met. And that was — I mean, he didn’t know that I had changed my name. So he kind of looked at me. I mean, he was still the same Sean that I remember. He was very warm, gave me a big hug. And then he asked, “Jonathan? Like, when did that happen?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I go, “Yeah, you know, I go by that now.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And he was so sweet. And he said, “You will always be Ke to me.” Uh, and I remember that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Well, the Discord user Turd writes, “Kwan is a really great person. He’s so positive and delighted despite having to deal with many challenges. He never seems bitter about his setbacks. What an inspiration.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Another listener on Discord writes, “Kwan was great in \u003cem>Loki\u003c/em>, very cool to see him pop up there.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ke, I understand when you were sort of first presented with the idea of writing a memoir, your impulse was to say no. Why?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Oh, yes. I mean, you know, I never shared my own personal struggles with anyone. In fact, there are so many stories in this book that I never shared, not even with my wife or my family until now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, it was just how I was raised. Uh, I grew up in a very traditional Chinese-value family. None of us share our feelings with each other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, I thought, you know, during the whole awards season of \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>, first time coming back, there were a lot of personal questions that I was being asked, but I was also very careful in answering them. I just opened the door a little bit, just to allow people a glimpse of what I had went through.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But writing a memoir is completely different. And I knew that if I were to do this, I would have to be very candid, uh, and share everything. And just the thought of that scared — scared me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, but every time I’ve met so many fans on the streets and at different events, and they’ve always told me that my story really resonated with them and it helped them through a difficult time. And I just thought that, well, you know, if I can do this and play a small role in helping, you know, people who are struggling, if I can help them, give them strength and courage, and also help them feel a little less alone, then this entire journey will be worthwhile.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Why did it scare you? I mean, I know you say there were stories that you never shared with people close to you. But why did that scare you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I think I had such huge success at a very young age. And then not long after that, I felt like a failure. And I really kept that to myself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I felt my best years were behind me. And honestly, Mina, it’s one of the worst feelings you can have when you are 18 years old or when you’re in your early twenties, to feel like, wow, you know, your best years are behind you rather than, you know, to have something to look forward to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So there were a lot of those feelings that I had during the quiet years that I didn’t want people to know about. I wanted people to see, you know, the happier side of me. Those were, those were really difficult days that… that I didn’t know that I would have the strength to share.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Listeners, what do you want to ask or tell Ke Huy Quan? What parts of Ke’s story feel similar to yours or resonate with you? Did you see his Oscar speech? Have you struggled to hold onto a dream? The email address is forum@kqed.org. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Chris writes, “What was it like as one of the earliest young Asian-American actors? It must have been hard balancing our Asian-American career expectations with stardom and Hollywood in that era.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ke, did you also, you know, feel pressure? Like, did you feel like you had sort of career expectations from your family and so on that so many Asian-American kids say that they experience?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Oh, yes. I mean, when you hit it big at such a young age, I mean, it’s understandable that your family and all your friends and, you know, and the public expect you to — you would go on to have this incredible career.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And also, back then, I mean, there were not a lot of us working in Hollywood. So I felt really proud when people in our community would come up to me and say, “Wow, you know, I went to school, people call me Short Round, people call me Data.” That was, you know, that made me feel good.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So there’s that pressure, but also the same, I mean, I started out so young, honestly. I didn’t think much of it. It was not until years later did I really understand, one, how lucky I was, what I was going through, but also, I just really wanted to, I guess because of my background, because of where my journey started as a refugee and all of that. So to get that validation from everyone made me feel great.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. The after. Can you talk about that moment when you decided you couldn’t do auditions anymore? You tell the story about trying to get this part as a Viet Cong soldier, and then sort of realize how desperately you wanted a part that just had two…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Lines. Yeah, that decision didn’t come easily and it wasn’t, you know, spontaneous or, you know, it was just like, okay, one day I just decided that I don’t want to do this anymore. It’s over a span of many, many years of just doing nothing, waiting by the phone to ring.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, I guess the best way I can describe it is… I felt like the world was still spinning. Everyone was moving forward at a very fast pace while I was just standing still.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There were so many, many sleepless nights staring up at the ceiling, wondering if my tomorrow will be better than today. And it’s really disheartening when you go to an audition after nine months, a year, and just everything rides on that one audition and hoping to land it. And when you get rejected again, and again, and again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then finally, I think what really broke was in 1993, when I auditioned for that, you know, that Viet Cong role. Didn’t have a character name. It had two lines. Again, there were like 50 other Asian actors fighting for this little, little tiny role. And when I didn’t even get that, then I really started to question, “Wait, do I still wanna do this? Like, how long do I wanna continue down this path when I didn’t see the light at the end of the tunnel?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it was the hardest — one of the hardest decisions I’ve ever made.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it definitely sounded that way. And then you, you know, tried to stay in the world, but just not in acting specifically, right? You go to USC and get a film degree. You, you know, learn about stunt roles and so on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, up until that point, you know, all I knew, you know, was about the movie business is from an actor’s point of view. I didn’t know, like, what a costume designer did or cinematography or editor. I didn’t understand what it takes to put a movie together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so now here I am. There are no more acting jobs. What am I going to do? I didn’t know how to do anything else. I was 25. So it’s been seven years since high school, and I felt like I don’t know a lot and I need to go back to school.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I didn’t want to leave this industry, so the only thing that made sense to me was film school. Luckily, when I applied, I got in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> He was a refugee from Vietnam who shot to stardom as Short Round in \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> when he was 12, but after quick success, his acting career ground to a halt. And he’s talking about those decades of painful self-doubt and few roles. He shares them in a new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>, and we’ll have more with him and with you, listeners, after the break. Stay with us. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. We’re talking this hour with Academy Award-winning actor Ke Huy Quan, who won for 2022’s \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>. He has a new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em> about his years — very early of quick success as Short Round in \u003cem>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom\u003c/em> and Data in \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>. But then as he grew older, the roles dried up, but him never giving up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And listeners, what are your questions for Ke about his work, his life, his story? Did you — do you remember his Oscar speech? And does it make you think about the dreams that you have struggled to hold onto or that you’ve kept alive? 866-733-6786, the number. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, email forum@kqed.org.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jeremy in San Francisco writes, “Your role in \u003cem>Zootopia 2\u003c/em> really inspired me. I was shocked by how impactful that movie was. After hearing more about your story, I’m wondering if you see parallels between Gary the Snake and your life.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Talk about doing Gary the Snake for \u003cem>Zootopia 2\u003c/em>. Too cute. It’s actually a film that my kids absolutely loved as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I love that movie. I’m so proud of it. I still remember the day I went into a Disney Animation building to meet with the creative team, and when they offered me the role, I really, you know, I was so thrilled because I was a big fan of the first one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in terms of do I see any parallels between myself and Gary the Snake? I mean, he’s so different in ways where he looks, you know, very intimidating because he’s a, you know, venomous pit viper. I don’t think I look intimidating at all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I think what we do share in common is having respect and kindness for the people around us. You know, he’s a big, goofy guy with a big heart, and that’s how I kind of like to think of myself that way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Also, you know, he has to deal with stigma, he has to try to reunite with his family, and tries to feel whole again. We actually have a clip from the film, you know, where he’s trying to explain that he’s trying to change the narrative about himself and reunite with his family before the character Nick Wilde, not realizing this, bops him on the head. Let’s hear it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> This is our only chance to set things right. And when I do, my family will finally be able to come home.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I am here! Cops and Wiles. Dream team. We got him. So good. I love that movie so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You know, so it was the 2018 film \u003cem>Crazy Rich Asians\u003c/em>, right, that sort of reignites your desire to act again? Because before the book, we were talking about how you made the decision just to stop doing it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, it’s all true. I mean, also, like, a few years prior to the movie came out, I mean, I started to see the landscape in Hollywood started changing. You know, you would have a wonderful, successful show called \u003cem>Fresh Off the Boat\u003c/em> on ABC. And, you know, more and more Asian actors were playing no longer like a one-dimensional buttered-Joe kind of character, but they’re more nuanced, you know, contributing to the stories.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I was beginning to see a lot of that, but I didn’t think much of it. I mean, I thought I had buried my, you know, the acting bug for many years. I thought that chapter of my life was over.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It was not until when I was in that movie theater on opening weekend and, you know, the room was filled with people, all kinds of people. And in the very beginning, I enjoyed it. I was watching it as if you would watch it as an audience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But somewhere along the line, this tiny thought started creeping into my head. And I go, “Wow, wouldn’t it be great if I was up there with them instead of here hearing the audience watching?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And really, that was the moment. The idea of getting back to acting started percolating. And I didn’t make the decision right away. I mean, it would be another year before I decided to finally do it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and you say that your wife didn’t know you as an actor and that, you know, you actually sort of voiced carefully, you know, that desire to act again to her.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah. When we met, you know, she didn’t know me as an actor. She knew me as this, in fact, aspiring filmmaker. I graduated from USC. I was working for Wong Kar-wai, and I wanted to, you know, I was thinking that, oh, once when I get enough experience, I’m going to go out and direct my own film.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, and she believed that. She said, “You’re going to make a great filmmaker one day.” Uh, and she’s been so supportive, whatever I want to do. She’s always like my biggest cheering squad, you know, uh, and, and she would say, “Well, if you want to go for it.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that was how that was, how it really began. So when I sat her down and I said, “Hey, what do you think about if I would act again?” I think it really surprised her because we never, we never ever talked about that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In fact, even… you know, the year leading up to that conversation, it was all in my head. I never said it out loud. But once when she found out that I was serious, she was so supportive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. You, um, you also say you thought about your father, who you dedicate this book to. You know, we hear you give tribute to your mother in your Oscar speech. Why did you dedicate this book to your dad?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> You know, a lot of people know my story as, you know, someone who never gives up. And, you know, it’s pretty remarkable. But when I look — when I sat down to write this book, I realized that it was actually my father who had set that example all his life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When you think about it, I mean, it wasn’t one attempt to flee Vietnam. It was three, a total of three attempts. He faced obstacle after obstacle to get our entire family out and never gave up until he successfully did it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when he came here, he himself personally was faced with the most challenging thing in his life. He had a massive stroke. And even then, he did not give up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In fact, when he took his very last breath, his brain gave out before his heart did. And that’s one of the reasons why I titled this book, \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. To me, it was a nice way to honor his legacy and also everything that he has done for me and my family. He has given us a chance at life, and I could not have been more grateful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And writing this book was so, you know, not only was it an emotional roller coaster, but it was also wonderful because I got to walk alongside him once again. It was as if he came alive. And to be able to memorialize him on these pages is something that I’m very proud of.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I actually want to just play one last clip from your Oscar speech, where you give tribute to Echo and also to that persistence.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I owe everything to the love of my life, my wife, Echo, who…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Who month after month, year after year for 20 years told me that one day, one day my time will come. Dreams are something you have to believe in. I almost gave up on mine. To all of you out there, please keep your dreams alive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Oh, it still gets me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It always gets me too. Your speech, really, really memorable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bob writes, “\u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em> is one of my favorite movies ever. And the character Waymond has so much heart. Thanks so much.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Viewers who want to know more about the history of Asian Americans in film should check out the documentary \u003cem>Slaying the Dragon\u003c/em>, which my partner teaches in her Asian American culture class.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When you got the part of Waymond, you say you felt like the part was written for you. How so, Ke?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> You know, when I first read the script, I mean, I was blown away by how good it was, but it was also something that I always wanted to read. I was so familiar with reading scripts where, if there was an Asian character, he would only appear, you know, sporadically across the pages. And more often than not, we’re asked to fit into a character rather than something that is written that feels authentic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But here I am reading this, it felt like it was written for me because I understood every version of this character and everything that he was saying, you know, every disappointment, every rejection has led you to this moment. Don’t let anything take you away from it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, I… I knew where those words come from, and every version of Waymond was my life. It felt like I had spent the last 30 years preparing for this role, and here it was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, and that’s why I — when I — put that script down, I wanted this more than anything in my entire life. I don’t think I ever wanted anything as much as I did.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> came along, I didn’t go searching to be an actor. I didn’t think that I would, you know, it was just… You’d never even been in a movie theater before.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Never been in a movie theater. The last thing on my mind was pursuing acting. And all of a sudden, I was just thrown into this incredible world of movie making.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, but now, flash forward 40 years later, I just turned 50. And here was an opportunity that I thought was made for me, but yet I hadn’t done it in 25 years. So it’s very natural for me to think, yeah, you want it. So what are they going to give it to you? You know, I mean.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yeah, you were, you know, a lot of times, I felt like, yeah, you were really good as a kid, but that was a long, long time ago. You don’t even know if you have what it takes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When I, when I stepped back, my goal was only to have like a small role in maybe a, you know, as a series regular, uh, that I could do week after week and have that steady paycheck. Uh, that was, that was it. Uh, and this felt so impossible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> But you got it, and it really is — many listeners are commenting on that film and also many listeners are also commenting on sort of just your warmth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Okay, let me remind listeners you’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Halina in Fremont is on the line. Halina, go ahead.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> Thank you very much. Hi, Ke. I’m so fascinated by your story. My husband and I, we are first-generation Chinese immigrants, so I understand quite of the experience you shared. Not as harsh as yours, but the main thing I want to share with you is that your story, your theory, your ethic of work not only resonated with the same age, same group, but also inspiring the new generation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>My daughter was born here, grew up here. She’s a college student in journalism major. She read through all the things about you. We went to — she goes to see the movie herself as well, so she’s absolutely a lover of the movie.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And your work ethic, the whole experience you shared with the audience, inspired her so much. Because she is also trying to get into the reporting and entertainment industry. It’s not easy for young people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But she told me that, you know what, I listened to so many of my quote-unquote heroes talking about how they struggle, how they survive, how do they make all the effort. I don’t think I have any other choice. I need to continue pushing through until one day I have a breakthrough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I want to share with you. Continue.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> That’s so sweet. Thank you for sharing that. I think that’s what gives me the greatest joy, is I didn’t know that my story would resonate with so many people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And ever since the book came out, the reception has been really positive, and I’ve met and gotten, you know, many messages saying that they see themselves in my story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, and that was my — that’s what I was hoping for when I set out to write this book. So thank you for sharing that. That really means a lot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The listener on Discord writes, “I think for everyone who saw it, Ke’s Oscar speech created a moment where he celebrated his perseverance while questioning your own. Yes, there are things in life I wish I’d kept at, yet others I wish had given up sooner. It was a real self-mirror moment.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Another listener in San Francisco writes, “Ke, after your success with \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>, will there continue to be more opportunities for Asian-American actors? Where does he want his career to go from here?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s interesting, right? Because, so yes, what are you seeing with regard to the landscape for Asian-American actors, but also how do you think about the question now? Because there is no guarantee that work will continue for you either, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So how do you think about that question of where you want your career to go from here, or handling an industry where there are no guarantees?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yes, that’s a big question. Here’s the difference between me now and the 30-year-old, you know, me. I’m no longer afraid of failure. It would no longer define me. I had failed before, I had gotten back up. And I’ve tried and I’ve tried and I’ve tried again. And here I am.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But in terms of — and you’re absolutely right, I mean, who knows what the next five, ten years entail? And the truth is, we have made a lot of progress in the last 10, 15 years. There have been a lot of wonderful movies that portrayed our community accurately and authentically and all of that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But moving forward, I’m a little wary just of how everything that has happened in the last year, year and a half. I feel like, you know, all the progress that we have made, we have taken a couple of steps back, and I’m looking — I’m curious to see where this is all going to go.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But here’s what I want to say. I wouldn’t be here if there wasn’t all these incredible — this incredible generation of young people who are really so outspoken, demand a change, they’re very vocal about what they want to see, what they wanted it to be represented up on the screen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think we need to continue that. But yeah, I don’t know. That’s a great question.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I’ve been wondering myself about how the landscape is still right now in Hollywood.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But in the meantime, thank you so much for putting all of this about yourself out in the world after describing sort of the struggles that you had to think about that and do that, Ke. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The book is \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>, and my guest is Ke Huy Quan. And I want to thank Jared Sport for producing this segment, and as always, to our listeners for sharing their own stories and questions and struggles and dreams.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And also I want to wish our former host, longtime host Michael Krasny, a happy birthday today. You’ve been listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Announcer:\u003c/strong> Funds for the production of \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> are provided by the Jenerosity Family Fund and the members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Actor Ke Huy Quan’s family fled post-war Vietnam and lived in a Hong Kong refugee camp before his unlikely turn as an iconic 1980s child star. He stumbled into a casting call for “Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom” at 12 years old, then rolled right into “The Goonies.” But as he transitioned into adulthood, roles started drying up. After decades of rejection, Quan made an Oscar-winning comeback in “Everything Everywhere All at Once.” In his new memoir, “Never Say Die,” Quan shares his forty-year journey of perseverance and self-discovery.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Actor Ke Huy Quan’s family fled post-war Vietnam and lived in a Hong Kong refugee camp before his unlikely turn as an iconic 1980s child star. He stumbled into a casting call for “Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom” at 12 years old, then rolled right into “The Goonies.” But as he transitioned into adulthood, roles started drying up. After decades of rejection, Quan made an Oscar-winning comeback in “Everything Everywhere All at Once.” In his new memoir, “Never Say Die,” Quan shares his forty-year journey of perseverance and self-discovery.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan,\u003c/strong> Academy Award-winning actor; author, “Never Say Die”\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. When Ke Huy Quan walked on stage in 2023 to accept the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor in \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>, he did not hold back tears.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. When Ke Huy Quan walked on stage in 2023 to accept the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor in \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>, he did not hold back tears.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Thank you. My mom is 84 years old and she’s at home watching. Mom, I just won an Oscar.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Thank you. My mom is 84 years old and she’s at home watching. Mom, I just won an Oscar.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> For Quan, his path to Hollywood’s highest honor included decades of painful self-doubt and very few roles, this after a big-screen debut in the ’80s at the age of 12 as Short Round in \u003cem>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> For Quan, his path to Hollywood’s highest honor included decades of painful self-doubt and very few roles, this after a big-screen debut in the ’80s at the age of 12 as Short Round in \u003cem>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Short Round, step on it! Okie dokie, Dr. Jones, hold onto your potato!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Short Round, step on it! Okie dokie, Dr. Jones, hold onto your potato!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It’s a journey Quan chronicles in his new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. And he joins me now. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, Ke.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It’s a journey Quan chronicles in his new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. And he joins me now. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, Ke.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Mina, hey, thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Mina, hey, thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Oh, it’s so wonderful to have you and to have been able to learn so much about your life, especially starting out as the kid that I, you know, maybe the first Asian kid actor I ever saw in a film, Short Round.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Oh, it’s so wonderful to have you and to have been able to learn so much about your life, especially starting out as the kid that I, you know, maybe the first Asian kid actor I ever saw in a film, Short Round.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Ha, ha, ha! Well, I’m very proud of that. I don’t know if that’s a good thing or not. It just goes to show you how underrepresented we were back then.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Ha, ha, ha! Well, I’m very proud of that. I don’t know if that’s a good thing or not. It just goes to show you how underrepresented we were back then.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you write actually in your book that it was a moment when you got that part, when your life split into a clear before and after. First, can you just talk about getting that part in 1983? Because it was basically accidental, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you write actually in your book that it was a moment when you got that part, when your life split into a clear before and after. First, can you just talk about getting that part in 1983? Because it was basically accidental, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yes, it was. It was only a few years since we immigrated to Chinatown, Los Angeles, and I was busy acclimating into this new life, learning this new language. And we were ESL students, so we would go on every Saturday morning to get extra help with vocabulary and reading comprehension.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yes, it was. It was only a few years since we immigrated to Chinatown, Los Angeles, and I was busy acclimating into this new life, learning this new language. And we were ESL students, so we would go on every Saturday morning to get extra help with vocabulary and reading comprehension.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And normally it’s really quiet until that one Saturday while we were studying. We noticed that people kept showing up, more and more people. It was parents with their kids heading into the building, and it really piqued my little brother David’s interest. And he said, “Hey, what’s going on?” And our tutors said, “Didn’t you see the flyers everywhere? They’re looking for a Chinese kid to be in a big Hollywood movie.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And normally it’s really quiet until that one Saturday while we were studying. We noticed that people kept showing up, more and more people. It was parents with their kids heading into the building, and it really piqued my little brother David’s interest. And he said, “Hey, what’s going on?” And our tutors said, “Didn’t you see the flyers everywhere? They’re looking for a Chinese kid to be in a big Hollywood movie.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And that was the first time we heard it. And after the tutoring session, my brother wanted to go check out to see what’s going on and wanted to give it a try, and I tagged along. Walked into a hallway filled with Asian kids reciting lines that they were told to memorize, and that’s how it all began.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And that was the first time we heard it. And after the tutoring session, my brother wanted to go check out to see what’s going on and wanted to give it a try, and I tagged along. Walked into a hallway filled with Asian kids reciting lines that they were told to memorize, and that’s how it all began.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and you were feeling like, so David signs up to do this and you are feeling like he’s not really bringing it, right? What the casting directors are asking for, so you start coaching—\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and you were feeling like, so David signs up to do this and you are feeling like he’s not really bringing it, right? What the casting directors are asking for, so you start coaching—\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> In front of the casting directors? Here’s the thing. It actually came out of my love for my brother. We would watch TV and reenact scenes together, so I know how good he can be. But being in front of the camera, I felt like he was a little nervous and he was holding back. And the casting directors weren’t seeing him the way I see him.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> In front of the casting directors? Here’s the thing. It actually came out of my love for my brother. We would watch TV and reenact scenes together, so I know how good he can be. But being in front of the camera, I felt like he was a little nervous and he was holding back. And the casting directors weren’t seeing him the way I see him.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And thinking that they don’t understand Cantonese, so I just jumped out of the chair and started screaming at him, you know, in Cantonese, kind of directing him what to do. And unbeknownst to me, their attention started to turn to me. So when my brother finished, they asked me if I would stay behind and read for them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And thinking that they don’t understand Cantonese, so I just jumped out of the chair and started screaming at him, you know, in Cantonese, kind of directing him what to do. And unbeknownst to me, their attention started to turn to me. So when my brother finished, they asked me if I would stay behind and read for them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Incredible. And then, of course, you know, they knew right then that they had their Short Round. And you also talk about auditioning in front of Steven Spielberg and Harrison Ford and George Lucas and how they really embraced you as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Incredible. And then, of course, you know, they knew right then that they had their Short Round. And you also talk about auditioning in front of Steven Spielberg and Harrison Ford and George Lucas and how they really embraced you as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But this was not an experience that you had had leading up to this. Let’s talk about the before, living in post-war Vietnam and needing to flee with your family in 1977. Why did you make that decision? What was happening? Or why did your parents make that decision?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But this was not an experience that you had had leading up to this. Let’s talk about the before, living in post-war Vietnam and needing to flee with your family in 1977. Why did you make that decision? What was happening? Or why did your parents make that decision?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Well, you know, this is 1977, post-Vietnam War, and our lives prior to that were really good. I mean, my parents were successful middle-class business people, and they had every intention of building a life for all of us there. And when that future looked bleak, they had no choice but to make the incredibly difficult decision to get all of us out of there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Well, you know, this is 1977, post-Vietnam War, and our lives prior to that were really good. I mean, my parents were successful middle-class business people, and they had every intention of building a life for all of us there. And when that future looked bleak, they had no choice but to make the incredibly difficult decision to get all of us out of there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Uh, and it was, uh, it was really traumatic. I was only seven years old. I didn’t know what was going on. I wasn’t given any information. Uh, all I knew was one day I was playing with my little brother and the next, being woken up in the middle of the night, being carried over my dad’s shoulder and carried into a waiting car.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Uh, and it was, uh, it was really traumatic. I was only seven years old. I didn’t know what was going on. I wasn’t given any information. Uh, all I knew was one day I was playing with my little brother and the next, being woken up in the middle of the night, being carried over my dad’s shoulder and carried into a waiting car.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And that was our very first attempt to escape. We made a total of three attempts. The first two were unsuccessful and landed me in jail. So by the time I turned eight, I had spent, you know, the first time three weeks, the second time three months in jail, and it was not until the third attempt, then as long as you can pay, you would have a spot on the ship and everything was out in the open.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And that was our very first attempt to escape. We made a total of three attempts. The first two were unsuccessful and landed me in jail. So by the time I turned eight, I had spent, you know, the first time three weeks, the second time three months in jail, and it was not until the third attempt, then as long as you can pay, you would have a spot on the ship and everything was out in the open.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and your family’s savings have been confiscated when you were arrested, and incredibly, spending that much time in jail as a little kid. But as you say, he gets the money to secure passage, basically in the cargo hold of a boat, by borrowing it. And you’re with 3,000 others packed in, experiencing bouts of seasickness and so on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and your family’s savings have been confiscated when you were arrested, and incredibly, spending that much time in jail as a little kid. But as you say, he gets the money to secure passage, basically in the cargo hold of a boat, by borrowing it. And you’re with 3,000 others packed in, experiencing bouts of seasickness and so on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But talk about when you finally make it to Hong Kong. The country won’t take you in, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But talk about when you finally make it to Hong Kong. The country won’t take you in, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah. After we spent seven treacherous days, you know, out in the South China Sea — you understand, this was winter. Almost all of us were city people, never been on a boat before, so those waves were big and the boat was rocking, like, really violently. Pretty much every single one of us were vomiting left and right.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah. After we spent seven treacherous days, you know, out in the South China Sea — you understand, this was winter. Almost all of us were city people, never been on a boat before, so those waves were big and the boat was rocking, like, really violently. Pretty much every single one of us were vomiting left and right.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And when we finally made it to Hong Kong, we thought that, wow, we had made it now. You know, everything’s gonna be all right. But once we got there, we got the terrible news that the Hong Kong government would not allow us to come on board. And we were desperate. We were hungry. The sanitation was really awful.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And when we finally made it to Hong Kong, we thought that, wow, we had made it now. You know, everything’s gonna be all right. But once we got there, we got the terrible news that the Hong Kong government would not allow us to come on board. And we were desperate. We were hungry. The sanitation was really awful.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And we ended up spending more than a month on the shore of Hong Kong, while this incredible organization called United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, UNHCR, stepped in and worked with countries all over the world to convince Hong Kong that if they were to allow us to come ashore, that they would help to get us off of their hands.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And we ended up spending more than a month on the shore of Hong Kong, while this incredible organization called United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, UNHCR, stepped in and worked with countries all over the world to convince Hong Kong that if they were to allow us to come ashore, that they would help to get us off of their hands.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And that’s what happened. And we ended up spending more than a year in a refugee camp.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to invite listeners into the conversation. Listen, we’re talking with Ke Huy Quan, Academy Award-winning actor for \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em> and now the author of a new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. Maybe you remember seeing him in \u003cem>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom\u003c/em> or as Data in \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, or are familiar with his recent voicing of Gary De’Snake in \u003cem>Zootopia 2\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to invite listeners into the conversation. Listen, we’re talking with Ke Huy Quan, Academy Award-winning actor for \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em> and now the author of a new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. Maybe you remember seeing him in \u003cem>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom\u003c/em> or as Data in \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, or are familiar with his recent voicing of Gary De’Snake in \u003cem>Zootopia 2\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Tell us what your questions are for Ke, what you want to say, what your favorite movies of his are or his work, or what parts of Ke’s story resonate with you, maybe feel similar to yours. You can email forum@kqed.org, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786. Again, that’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Tell us what your questions are for Ke, what you want to say, what your favorite movies of his are or his work, or what parts of Ke’s story resonate with you, maybe feel similar to yours. You can email forum@kqed.org, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786. Again, that’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, one of the stories of the most painful memories of rejection in Hong Kong that really struck me was when you actually go to your aunt’s home to visit, to have a meal with her and her family. Can you talk about what happened there?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yes. My mom was born in Hong Kong, so her family lives in Hong Kong. And one day, you know, the refugee camp that we stayed in, we were allowed to go in and out. My older siblings were allowed to go work, so they were all supporting themselves.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yes. My mom was born in Hong Kong, so her family lives in Hong Kong. And one day, you know, the refugee camp that we stayed in, we were allowed to go in and out. My older siblings were allowed to go work, so they were all supporting themselves.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And being the youngest of six with my dad, I didn’t have much to do. So one day when I found out that my aunt invited me and my sister to a home to have dinner, I was so excited. My dad bought me a brand-new outfit, and I hadn’t had a home-cooked meal in, you know, months. And here I am, you know, getting invited to my mom’s sister, older sister’s apartment. And I thought that, you know, she looked like my mom and I thought everything was going to be great.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And being the youngest of six with my dad, I didn’t have much to do. So one day when I found out that my aunt invited me and my sister to a home to have dinner, I was so excited. My dad bought me a brand-new outfit, and I hadn’t had a home-cooked meal in, you know, months. And here I am, you know, getting invited to my mom’s sister, older sister’s apartment. And I thought that, you know, she looked like my mom and I thought everything was going to be great.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When I sat down to have dinner, I didn’t understand what the Hong Kong culture was like. Everybody had their own customized pair of chopsticks with their name on it. But I was so excited, I was hungry. I sat and started eating and literally didn’t know that I was actually using my cousin’s pair of chopsticks.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When I sat down to have dinner, I didn’t understand what the Hong Kong culture was like. Everybody had their own customized pair of chopsticks with their name on it. But I was so excited, I was hungry. I sat and started eating and literally didn’t know that I was actually using my cousin’s pair of chopsticks.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I was called out on it right away. And I witnessed my aunt took the very same pair of chopsticks that I had used into the kitchen, washed it extensively, and poured hot boiling water over it. And at that age, I didn’t understand why she did that. I thought we were family.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I was called out on it right away. And I witnessed my aunt took the very same pair of chopsticks that I had used into the kitchen, washed it extensively, and poured hot boiling water over it. And at that age, I didn’t understand why she did that. I thought we were family.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But, of course, many years later, uh… I understand. I don’t think she was trying to hurt me in any other way, but it was just this fear that everyone had, you know, we were refugees, and there was that stigma that comes with it. And because of little information that was known about all of us, I mean, she thought that we would carry disease. And, yeah, it was — it was, you know, a moment that I never forgot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But, of course, many years later, uh… I understand. I don’t think she was trying to hurt me in any other way, but it was just this fear that everyone had, you know, we were refugees, and there was that stigma that comes with it. And because of little information that was known about all of us, I mean, she thought that we would carry disease. And, yeah, it was — it was, you know, a moment that I never forgot.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, it’s a moment you never got — you finally reunite with your mom and siblings in Los Angeles’ Chinatown in ’79. They had gone ahead and you had been separated from them. But how does that experience shape your sort of sense of self or your place in the world early on? And we’re coming up on a break. Sorry about that, Ke, but we just have about 30 seconds.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, it’s a moment you never got — you finally reunite with your mom and siblings in Los Angeles’ Chinatown in ’79. They had gone ahead and you had been separated from them. But how does that experience shape your sort of sense of self or your place in the world early on? And we’re coming up on a break. Sorry about that, Ke, but we just have about 30 seconds.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Uh, it really, you know, when I sat down and write this book, it really made me confront my own identity, uh, and as a refugee and what that label carried. And for so many years, I was really ashamed of it. Um, I didn’t know, you know, I think it really shaped who I am today.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Uh, it really, you know, when I sat down and write this book, it really made me confront my own identity, uh, and as a refugee and what that label carried. And for so many years, I was really ashamed of it. Um, I didn’t know, you know, I think it really shaped who I am today.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we’re talking with Ke Huy Quan. And so are you, listeners, at 866-733-6786, on our social channels at KQED Forum, and you can email Forum at kqed.org. More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we’re talking with Ke Huy Quan. And so are you, listeners, at 866-733-6786, on our social channels at KQED Forum, and you can email Forum at kqed.org. More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. We’re talking this hour with actor Ke Huy Quan, who played Waymond in 2022’s \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>, which he won the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor. He has a new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. And here’s a clip of a press interview Ke gave in 1984 about getting the part of Short Round in \u003cem>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. We’re talking this hour with actor Ke Huy Quan, who played Waymond in 2022’s \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>, which he won the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor. He has a new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. And here’s a clip of a press interview Ke gave in 1984 about getting the part of Short Round in \u003cem>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I think I changed a lot and I was a bold people and now I get to make the movie. Do you think you’ve been very lucky? Yes, definitely. I think I’m very lucky, and I’m number seven in my family. That’s a lucky number.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I think I changed a lot and I was a bold people and now I get to make the movie. Do you think you’ve been very lucky? Yes, definitely. I think I’m very lucky, and I’m number seven in my family. That’s a lucky number.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What’s it like to hear that, Ke, or voice?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What’s it like to hear that, Ke, or voice?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I’m so precocious. And I think that’s how I got the role too, I’m sure.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I’m so precocious. And I think that’s how I got the role too, I’m sure.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That played a big part. Well, we’ve got a call coming in from Lubna in Palo Alto. Lubna, join us. You’re on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That played a big part. Well, we’ve got a call coming in from Lubna in Palo Alto. Lubna, join us. You’re on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much. I wanted to just congratulate the guest on his success and just overcoming so much in his life and being successful. It’s wonderful.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much. I wanted to just congratulate the guest on his success and just overcoming so much in his life and being successful. It’s wonderful.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We are of South Asian descent, and my son is just embarking on his acting career after graduating from school, college. And we know that Brown people are having a moment. But we don’t know how long this moment will last. And we were just wondering, what advice do you have for someone just starting out, you know, Indian-Pakistani descent, trying to land roles and get noticed and, you know, where, of course, still the majority of roles do not go to people of minority descent?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We are of South Asian descent, and my son is just embarking on his acting career after graduating from school, college. And we know that Brown people are having a moment. But we don’t know how long this moment will last. And we were just wondering, what advice do you have for someone just starting out, you know, Indian-Pakistani descent, trying to land roles and get noticed and, you know, where, of course, still the majority of roles do not go to people of minority descent?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Great question. Thanks for calling in. Yeah, I mean, you know, if I’m being honest, it is very difficult. And my advice is that you have to be prepared for a lot of rejections. And make sure that the belief you have in yourself doesn’t waver. And work really hard. Don’t give up and don’t let anybody… you know, tell you anything different.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Great question. Thanks for calling in. Yeah, I mean, you know, if I’m being honest, it is very difficult. And my advice is that you have to be prepared for a lot of rejections. And make sure that the belief you have in yourself doesn’t waver. And work really hard. Don’t give up and don’t let anybody… you know, tell you anything different.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think it’s really important. If you look at my story, you know, I wouldn’t be here talking to you if I didn’t persevere. A lot of times, you know, we don’t know what’s right around the corner. But if we stop, we’ll never see it. So we have to always keep going and work really hard and be patient because, you know, I believe that everyone — you know, everyone has their own time and that time will come one day.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think it’s really important. If you look at my story, you know, I wouldn’t be here talking to you if I didn’t persevere. A lot of times, you know, we don’t know what’s right around the corner. But if we stop, we’ll never see it. So we have to always keep going and work really hard and be patient because, you know, I believe that everyone — you know, everyone has their own time and that time will come one day.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, talk about what happened in those years after \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> and \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, right? Another big hit and the film you reference in your title, \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. You know, after that, you wanted nothing more than to be an actor, but pretty quickly, like within a few years, the roles, the calls, they just stopped.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, talk about what happened in those years after \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> and \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, right? Another big hit and the film you reference in your title, \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. You know, after that, you wanted nothing more than to be an actor, but pretty quickly, like within a few years, the roles, the calls, they just stopped.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you know, my career went south rather quickly. I mean, you would think, you know, to start at 12 years old and having done \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> and \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, too, hugely popular movies, that I would have a very bright future. But by the time I turned 18 years old, when everybody is very optimistic on what their path would look like, mine looked very different.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you know, my career went south rather quickly. I mean, you would think, you know, to start at 12 years old and having done \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> and \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, too, hugely popular movies, that I would have a very bright future. But by the time I turned 18 years old, when everybody is very optimistic on what their path would look like, mine looked very different.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Um, and I didn’t really know, you know, what I would do. But there was one thing I was sure of, was that I wanted to be an actor. In fact, I was only 13 when I knew I wanted to be an actor for the rest of my life.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Um, and I didn’t really know, you know, what I would do. But there was one thing I was sure of, was that I wanted to be an actor. In fact, I was only 13 when I knew I wanted to be an actor for the rest of my life.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Um, those years were very hard. But luckily, you know, I never forgot what inspired me, because every time I got dejected… I would go to the movie theater and I would watch a great movie, a great performance by an actor. I would be totally immersed in it and I would walk out feeling so motivated and I’ll go back home, lock myself in the room and start playing out those scenes that I love, kind of reenact, kind of put myself in that character’s shoes and try to, you know, and have my own moment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Um, those years were very hard. But luckily, you know, I never forgot what inspired me, because every time I got dejected… I would go to the movie theater and I would watch a great movie, a great performance by an actor. I would be totally immersed in it and I would walk out feeling so motivated and I’ll go back home, lock myself in the room and start playing out those scenes that I love, kind of reenact, kind of put myself in that character’s shoes and try to, you know, and have my own moment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think it’s the movie theater that really kept my passion alive all these years. But they were not easy years. It wasn’t a short time. It was a very long time. I call them the quiet years in my book.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think it’s the movie theater that really kept my passion alive all these years. But they were not easy years. It wasn’t a short time. It was a very long time. I call them the quiet years in my book.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and then they last about 30 years. I was struck by the story of you talking about hitting puberty and your voice changing, but not in the way that most people’s voices change.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and then they last about 30 years. I was struck by the story of you talking about hitting puberty and your voice changing, but not in the way that most people’s voices change.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I remember when I had to go back to public school because I wasn’t working anymore. And I would, you know, the first three days I would show up at the cafeteria and I didn’t have any friends and I felt so alone. And I felt like just because of my fame in the movies that I had done, I felt everyone was watching me. Maybe they weren’t, but it felt like that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I remember when I had to go back to public school because I wasn’t working anymore. And I would, you know, the first three days I would show up at the cafeteria and I didn’t have any friends and I felt so alone. And I felt like just because of my fame in the movies that I had done, I felt everyone was watching me. Maybe they weren’t, but it felt like that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I lasted no more than three days, and then I would get in my car and then just then every lunchtime I would go to McDonald’s. I would go to the drive-thru and order a hamburger, french fries and a Coke, and the lady that works there would always say, “Oh, thank you, ma’am. Please pull up to the first window.” It was always “ma’am.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I lasted no more than three days, and then I would get in my car and then just then every lunchtime I would go to McDonald’s. I would go to the drive-thru and order a hamburger, french fries and a Coke, and the lady that works there would always say, “Oh, thank you, ma’am. Please pull up to the first window.” It was always “ma’am.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And, you know, I realized that I sound like — yeah, I sound very different than I imagined. And then I would go back the next day and I would try to speak a little bit lower voice. “Hey, yes, uh…”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And, you know, I realized that I sound like — yeah, I sound very different than I imagined. And then I would go back the next day and I would try to speak a little bit lower voice. “Hey, yes, uh…”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> “Can I have a hamburger, french fries and a Coke, please?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> “Can I have a hamburger, french fries and a Coke, please?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it will be the same thing: “Thank you, ma’am. Please pull up to the first window.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And it will be the same thing: “Thank you, ma’am. Please pull up to the first window.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> All right, you said your voice went higher when you were eating.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> All right, you said your voice went higher when you were eating.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> But you know, it’s interesting because I remember there’s a story that I tell in the book. This was like after Michael Jackson had come to visit \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em> and he invited all of us to his Victory Tour. And one day, just out of the blue, I got a call from him and my brother picked it up and I was in the other room and he screamed really loud, “Ke! Some girl is looking for you!”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> But you know, it’s interesting because I remember there’s a story that I tell in the book. This was like after Michael Jackson had come to visit \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em> and he invited all of us to his Victory Tour. And one day, just out of the blue, I got a call from him and my brother picked it up and I was in the other room and he screamed really loud, “Ke! Some girl is looking for you!”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Uh, and, uh, and I just realized, I guess that’s the, you know, that’s the, um, uh, little thing that Michael Jackson and I have in common, which sound a bit different.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Uh, and, uh, and I just realized, I guess that’s the, you know, that’s the, um, uh, little thing that Michael Jackson and I have in common, which sound a bit different.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The other thing that you did that I think also speaks to the struggle of that time is you changed your name to Jonathan. And can you also tell the story about sort of the awkwardness of seeing your former castmate from \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, Sean Astin, who asks you about changing your name?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The other thing that you did that I think also speaks to the struggle of that time is you changed your name to Jonathan. And can you also tell the story about sort of the awkwardness of seeing your former castmate from \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, Sean Astin, who asks you about changing your name?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, uh, I was 18 years old and I just got naturalized, so I was going to become an American citizen. Uh, so, you know, I’m filling out all these paperwork and it was at the same time my manager had suggested for some time that I should change to a more American-sounding name, and also it didn’t sound like a bad idea at that time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, uh, I was 18 years old and I just got naturalized, so I was going to become an American citizen. Uh, so, you know, I’m filling out all these paperwork and it was at the same time my manager had suggested for some time that I should change to a more American-sounding name, and also it didn’t sound like a bad idea at that time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Because every time I would walk into a casting room, my fame and my name would always walk in before I did. And I felt like my past was holding me back. It wasn’t helping me in any way. It was kind of hindering me from getting the opportunities that I wanted.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Because every time I would walk into a casting room, my fame and my name would always walk in before I did. And I felt like my past was holding me back. It wasn’t helping me in any way. It was kind of hindering me from getting the opportunities that I wanted.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I thought, yeah, it sounds like a great idea. So that’s what I did. I mean, honestly, at that point in my life, I would have done anything to change the status quo.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Because everywhere I look, everyone was doing so well, my co-stars from \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, Sean Astin, Corey Feldman, and all the child actors that I grew up with. They were all doing movies and TV shows, one after the other.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Because everywhere I look, everyone was doing so well, my co-stars from \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, Sean Astin, Corey Feldman, and all the child actors that I grew up with. They were all doing movies and TV shows, one after the other.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And there was one moment when I walked on the set of \u003cem>Encino Man\u003c/em>, and Sean was the star of that movie. I had a very small role, and we met. And that was — I mean, he didn’t know that I had changed my name. So he kind of looked at me. I mean, he was still the same Sean that I remember. He was very warm, gave me a big hug. And then he asked, “Jonathan? Like, when did that happen?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And there was one moment when I walked on the set of \u003cem>Encino Man\u003c/em>, and Sean was the star of that movie. I had a very small role, and we met. And that was — I mean, he didn’t know that I had changed my name. So he kind of looked at me. I mean, he was still the same Sean that I remember. He was very warm, gave me a big hug. And then he asked, “Jonathan? Like, when did that happen?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I go, “Yeah, you know, I go by that now.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And he was so sweet. And he said, “You will always be Ke to me.” Uh, and I remember that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Well, the Discord user Turd writes, “Kwan is a really great person. He’s so positive and delighted despite having to deal with many challenges. He never seems bitter about his setbacks. What an inspiration.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Well, the Discord user Turd writes, “Kwan is a really great person. He’s so positive and delighted despite having to deal with many challenges. He never seems bitter about his setbacks. What an inspiration.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Another listener on Discord writes, “Kwan was great in \u003cem>Loki\u003c/em>, very cool to see him pop up there.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Another listener on Discord writes, “Kwan was great in \u003cem>Loki\u003c/em>, very cool to see him pop up there.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ke, I understand when you were sort of first presented with the idea of writing a memoir, your impulse was to say no. Why?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Oh, yes. I mean, you know, I never shared my own personal struggles with anyone. In fact, there are so many stories in this book that I never shared, not even with my wife or my family until now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Oh, yes. I mean, you know, I never shared my own personal struggles with anyone. In fact, there are so many stories in this book that I never shared, not even with my wife or my family until now.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Uh, it was just how I was raised. Uh, I grew up in a very traditional Chinese-value family. None of us share our feelings with each other.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Uh, it was just how I was raised. Uh, I grew up in a very traditional Chinese-value family. None of us share our feelings with each other.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Um, I thought, you know, during the whole awards season of \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>, first time coming back, there were a lot of personal questions that I was being asked, but I was also very careful in answering them. I just opened the door a little bit, just to allow people a glimpse of what I had went through.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Um, I thought, you know, during the whole awards season of \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>, first time coming back, there were a lot of personal questions that I was being asked, but I was also very careful in answering them. I just opened the door a little bit, just to allow people a glimpse of what I had went through.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But writing a memoir is completely different. And I knew that if I were to do this, I would have to be very candid, uh, and share everything. And just the thought of that scared — scared me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But writing a memoir is completely different. And I knew that if I were to do this, I would have to be very candid, uh, and share everything. And just the thought of that scared — scared me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Um, but every time I’ve met so many fans on the streets and at different events, and they’ve always told me that my story really resonated with them and it helped them through a difficult time. And I just thought that, well, you know, if I can do this and play a small role in helping, you know, people who are struggling, if I can help them, give them strength and courage, and also help them feel a little less alone, then this entire journey will be worthwhile.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Um, but every time I’ve met so many fans on the streets and at different events, and they’ve always told me that my story really resonated with them and it helped them through a difficult time. And I just thought that, well, you know, if I can do this and play a small role in helping, you know, people who are struggling, if I can help them, give them strength and courage, and also help them feel a little less alone, then this entire journey will be worthwhile.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Why did it scare you? I mean, I know you say there were stories that you never shared with people close to you. But why did that scare you?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Why did it scare you? I mean, I know you say there were stories that you never shared with people close to you. But why did that scare you?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I think I had such huge success at a very young age. And then not long after that, I felt like a failure. And I really kept that to myself.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I think I had such huge success at a very young age. And then not long after that, I felt like a failure. And I really kept that to myself.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I felt my best years were behind me. And honestly, Mina, it’s one of the worst feelings you can have when you are 18 years old or when you’re in your early twenties, to feel like, wow, you know, your best years are behind you rather than, you know, to have something to look forward to.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I felt my best years were behind me. And honestly, Mina, it’s one of the worst feelings you can have when you are 18 years old or when you’re in your early twenties, to feel like, wow, you know, your best years are behind you rather than, you know, to have something to look forward to.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So there were a lot of those feelings that I had during the quiet years that I didn’t want people to know about. I wanted people to see, you know, the happier side of me. Those were, those were really difficult days that… that I didn’t know that I would have the strength to share.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So there were a lot of those feelings that I had during the quiet years that I didn’t want people to know about. I wanted people to see, you know, the happier side of me. Those were, those were really difficult days that… that I didn’t know that I would have the strength to share.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Listeners, what do you want to ask or tell Ke Huy Quan? What parts of Ke’s story feel similar to yours or resonate with you? Did you see his Oscar speech? Have you struggled to hold onto a dream? The email address is forum@kqed.org. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Listeners, what do you want to ask or tell Ke Huy Quan? What parts of Ke’s story feel similar to yours or resonate with you? Did you see his Oscar speech? Have you struggled to hold onto a dream? The email address is forum@kqed.org. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And Chris writes, “What was it like as one of the earliest young Asian-American actors? It must have been hard balancing our Asian-American career expectations with stardom and Hollywood in that era.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And Chris writes, “What was it like as one of the earliest young Asian-American actors? It must have been hard balancing our Asian-American career expectations with stardom and Hollywood in that era.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ke, did you also, you know, feel pressure? Like, did you feel like you had sort of career expectations from your family and so on that so many Asian-American kids say that they experience?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Ke, did you also, you know, feel pressure? Like, did you feel like you had sort of career expectations from your family and so on that so many Asian-American kids say that they experience?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Oh, yes. I mean, when you hit it big at such a young age, I mean, it’s understandable that your family and all your friends and, you know, and the public expect you to — you would go on to have this incredible career.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Oh, yes. I mean, when you hit it big at such a young age, I mean, it’s understandable that your family and all your friends and, you know, and the public expect you to — you would go on to have this incredible career.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And also, back then, I mean, there were not a lot of us working in Hollywood. So I felt really proud when people in our community would come up to me and say, “Wow, you know, I went to school, people call me Short Round, people call me Data.” That was, you know, that made me feel good.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And also, back then, I mean, there were not a lot of us working in Hollywood. So I felt really proud when people in our community would come up to me and say, “Wow, you know, I went to school, people call me Short Round, people call me Data.” That was, you know, that made me feel good.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So there’s that pressure, but also the same, I mean, I started out so young, honestly. I didn’t think much of it. It was not until years later did I really understand, one, how lucky I was, what I was going through, but also, I just really wanted to, I guess because of my background, because of where my journey started as a refugee and all of that. So to get that validation from everyone made me feel great.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So there’s that pressure, but also the same, I mean, I started out so young, honestly. I didn’t think much of it. It was not until years later did I really understand, one, how lucky I was, what I was going through, but also, I just really wanted to, I guess because of my background, because of where my journey started as a refugee and all of that. So to get that validation from everyone made me feel great.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. The after. Can you talk about that moment when you decided you couldn’t do auditions anymore? You tell the story about trying to get this part as a Viet Cong soldier, and then sort of realize how desperately you wanted a part that just had two…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. The after. Can you talk about that moment when you decided you couldn’t do auditions anymore? You tell the story about trying to get this part as a Viet Cong soldier, and then sort of realize how desperately you wanted a part that just had two…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Lines. Yeah, that decision didn’t come easily and it wasn’t, you know, spontaneous or, you know, it was just like, okay, one day I just decided that I don’t want to do this anymore. It’s over a span of many, many years of just doing nothing, waiting by the phone to ring.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Lines. Yeah, that decision didn’t come easily and it wasn’t, you know, spontaneous or, you know, it was just like, okay, one day I just decided that I don’t want to do this anymore. It’s over a span of many, many years of just doing nothing, waiting by the phone to ring.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Uh, I guess the best way I can describe it is… I felt like the world was still spinning. Everyone was moving forward at a very fast pace while I was just standing still.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Uh, I guess the best way I can describe it is… I felt like the world was still spinning. Everyone was moving forward at a very fast pace while I was just standing still.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There were so many, many sleepless nights staring up at the ceiling, wondering if my tomorrow will be better than today. And it’s really disheartening when you go to an audition after nine months, a year, and just everything rides on that one audition and hoping to land it. And when you get rejected again, and again, and again.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There were so many, many sleepless nights staring up at the ceiling, wondering if my tomorrow will be better than today. And it’s really disheartening when you go to an audition after nine months, a year, and just everything rides on that one audition and hoping to land it. And when you get rejected again, and again, and again.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then finally, I think what really broke was in 1993, when I auditioned for that, you know, that Viet Cong role. Didn’t have a character name. It had two lines. Again, there were like 50 other Asian actors fighting for this little, little tiny role. And when I didn’t even get that, then I really started to question, “Wait, do I still wanna do this? Like, how long do I wanna continue down this path when I didn’t see the light at the end of the tunnel?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then finally, I think what really broke was in 1993, when I auditioned for that, you know, that Viet Cong role. Didn’t have a character name. It had two lines. Again, there were like 50 other Asian actors fighting for this little, little tiny role. And when I didn’t even get that, then I really started to question, “Wait, do I still wanna do this? Like, how long do I wanna continue down this path when I didn’t see the light at the end of the tunnel?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it was the hardest — one of the hardest decisions I’ve ever made.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it definitely sounded that way. And then you, you know, tried to stay in the world, but just not in acting specifically, right? You go to USC and get a film degree. You, you know, learn about stunt roles and so on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it definitely sounded that way. And then you, you know, tried to stay in the world, but just not in acting specifically, right? You go to USC and get a film degree. You, you know, learn about stunt roles and so on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, up until that point, you know, all I knew, you know, was about the movie business is from an actor’s point of view. I didn’t know, like, what a costume designer did or cinematography or editor. I didn’t understand what it takes to put a movie together.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, up until that point, you know, all I knew, you know, was about the movie business is from an actor’s point of view. I didn’t know, like, what a costume designer did or cinematography or editor. I didn’t understand what it takes to put a movie together.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so now here I am. There are no more acting jobs. What am I going to do? I didn’t know how to do anything else. I was 25. So it’s been seven years since high school, and I felt like I don’t know a lot and I need to go back to school.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so now here I am. There are no more acting jobs. What am I going to do? I didn’t know how to do anything else. I was 25. So it’s been seven years since high school, and I felt like I don’t know a lot and I need to go back to school.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I didn’t want to leave this industry, so the only thing that made sense to me was film school. Luckily, when I applied, I got in.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I didn’t want to leave this industry, so the only thing that made sense to me was film school. Luckily, when I applied, I got in.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> He was a refugee from Vietnam who shot to stardom as Short Round in \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> when he was 12, but after quick success, his acting career ground to a halt. And he’s talking about those decades of painful self-doubt and few roles. He shares them in a new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>, and we’ll have more with him and with you, listeners, after the break. Stay with us. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> He was a refugee from Vietnam who shot to stardom as Short Round in \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> when he was 12, but after quick success, his acting career ground to a halt. And he’s talking about those decades of painful self-doubt and few roles. He shares them in a new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>, and we’ll have more with him and with you, listeners, after the break. Stay with us. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. We’re talking this hour with Academy Award-winning actor Ke Huy Quan, who won for 2022’s \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>. He has a new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em> about his years — very early of quick success as Short Round in \u003cem>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom\u003c/em> and Data in \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>. But then as he grew older, the roles dried up, but him never giving up.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And listeners, what are your questions for Ke about his work, his life, his story? Did you — do you remember his Oscar speech? And does it make you think about the dreams that you have struggled to hold onto or that you’ve kept alive? 866-733-6786, the number. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, email forum@kqed.org.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And listeners, what are your questions for Ke about his work, his life, his story? Did you — do you remember his Oscar speech? And does it make you think about the dreams that you have struggled to hold onto or that you’ve kept alive? 866-733-6786, the number. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, email forum@kqed.org.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Jeremy in San Francisco writes, “Your role in \u003cem>Zootopia 2\u003c/em> really inspired me. I was shocked by how impactful that movie was. After hearing more about your story, I’m wondering if you see parallels between Gary the Snake and your life.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Talk about doing Gary the Snake for \u003cem>Zootopia 2\u003c/em>. Too cute. It’s actually a film that my kids absolutely loved as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Talk about doing Gary the Snake for \u003cem>Zootopia 2\u003c/em>. Too cute. It’s actually a film that my kids absolutely loved as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I love that movie. I’m so proud of it. I still remember the day I went into a Disney Animation building to meet with the creative team, and when they offered me the role, I really, you know, I was so thrilled because I was a big fan of the first one.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I love that movie. I’m so proud of it. I still remember the day I went into a Disney Animation building to meet with the creative team, and when they offered me the role, I really, you know, I was so thrilled because I was a big fan of the first one.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And in terms of do I see any parallels between myself and Gary the Snake? I mean, he’s so different in ways where he looks, you know, very intimidating because he’s a, you know, venomous pit viper. I don’t think I look intimidating at all.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And in terms of do I see any parallels between myself and Gary the Snake? I mean, he’s so different in ways where he looks, you know, very intimidating because he’s a, you know, venomous pit viper. I don’t think I look intimidating at all.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I think what we do share in common is having respect and kindness for the people around us. You know, he’s a big, goofy guy with a big heart, and that’s how I kind of like to think of myself that way.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I think what we do share in common is having respect and kindness for the people around us. You know, he’s a big, goofy guy with a big heart, and that’s how I kind of like to think of myself that way.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Also, you know, he has to deal with stigma, he has to try to reunite with his family, and tries to feel whole again. We actually have a clip from the film, you know, where he’s trying to explain that he’s trying to change the narrative about himself and reunite with his family before the character Nick Wilde, not realizing this, bops him on the head. Let’s hear it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Also, you know, he has to deal with stigma, he has to try to reunite with his family, and tries to feel whole again. We actually have a clip from the film, you know, where he’s trying to explain that he’s trying to change the narrative about himself and reunite with his family before the character Nick Wilde, not realizing this, bops him on the head. Let’s hear it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> This is our only chance to set things right. And when I do, my family will finally be able to come home.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> This is our only chance to set things right. And when I do, my family will finally be able to come home.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I am here! Cops and Wiles. Dream team. We got him. So good. I love that movie so much.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I am here! Cops and Wiles. Dream team. We got him. So good. I love that movie so much.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You know, so it was the 2018 film \u003cem>Crazy Rich Asians\u003c/em>, right, that sort of reignites your desire to act again? Because before the book, we were talking about how you made the decision just to stop doing it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, it’s all true. I mean, also, like, a few years prior to the movie came out, I mean, I started to see the landscape in Hollywood started changing. You know, you would have a wonderful, successful show called \u003cem>Fresh Off the Boat\u003c/em> on ABC. And, you know, more and more Asian actors were playing no longer like a one-dimensional buttered-Joe kind of character, but they’re more nuanced, you know, contributing to the stories.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, it’s all true. I mean, also, like, a few years prior to the movie came out, I mean, I started to see the landscape in Hollywood started changing. You know, you would have a wonderful, successful show called \u003cem>Fresh Off the Boat\u003c/em> on ABC. And, you know, more and more Asian actors were playing no longer like a one-dimensional buttered-Joe kind of character, but they’re more nuanced, you know, contributing to the stories.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I was beginning to see a lot of that, but I didn’t think much of it. I mean, I thought I had buried my, you know, the acting bug for many years. I thought that chapter of my life was over.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I was beginning to see a lot of that, but I didn’t think much of it. I mean, I thought I had buried my, you know, the acting bug for many years. I thought that chapter of my life was over.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It was not until when I was in that movie theater on opening weekend and, you know, the room was filled with people, all kinds of people. And in the very beginning, I enjoyed it. I was watching it as if you would watch it as an audience.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It was not until when I was in that movie theater on opening weekend and, you know, the room was filled with people, all kinds of people. And in the very beginning, I enjoyed it. I was watching it as if you would watch it as an audience.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But somewhere along the line, this tiny thought started creeping into my head. And I go, “Wow, wouldn’t it be great if I was up there with them instead of here hearing the audience watching?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But somewhere along the line, this tiny thought started creeping into my head. And I go, “Wow, wouldn’t it be great if I was up there with them instead of here hearing the audience watching?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And really, that was the moment. The idea of getting back to acting started percolating. And I didn’t make the decision right away. I mean, it would be another year before I decided to finally do it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And really, that was the moment. The idea of getting back to acting started percolating. And I didn’t make the decision right away. I mean, it would be another year before I decided to finally do it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and you say that your wife didn’t know you as an actor and that, you know, you actually sort of voiced carefully, you know, that desire to act again to her.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and you say that your wife didn’t know you as an actor and that, you know, you actually sort of voiced carefully, you know, that desire to act again to her.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah. When we met, you know, she didn’t know me as an actor. She knew me as this, in fact, aspiring filmmaker. I graduated from USC. I was working for Wong Kar-wai, and I wanted to, you know, I was thinking that, oh, once when I get enough experience, I’m going to go out and direct my own film.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah. When we met, you know, she didn’t know me as an actor. She knew me as this, in fact, aspiring filmmaker. I graduated from USC. I was working for Wong Kar-wai, and I wanted to, you know, I was thinking that, oh, once when I get enough experience, I’m going to go out and direct my own film.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, and she believed that. She said, “You’re going to make a great filmmaker one day.” Uh, and she’s been so supportive, whatever I want to do. She’s always like my biggest cheering squad, you know, uh, and, and she would say, “Well, if you want to go for it.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, and she believed that. She said, “You’re going to make a great filmmaker one day.” Uh, and she’s been so supportive, whatever I want to do. She’s always like my biggest cheering squad, you know, uh, and, and she would say, “Well, if you want to go for it.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And that was how that was, how it really began. So when I sat her down and I said, “Hey, what do you think about if I would act again?” I think it really surprised her because we never, we never ever talked about that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And that was how that was, how it really began. So when I sat her down and I said, “Hey, what do you think about if I would act again?” I think it really surprised her because we never, we never ever talked about that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In fact, even… you know, the year leading up to that conversation, it was all in my head. I never said it out loud. But once when she found out that I was serious, she was so supportive.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In fact, even… you know, the year leading up to that conversation, it was all in my head. I never said it out loud. But once when she found out that I was serious, she was so supportive.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. You, um, you also say you thought about your father, who you dedicate this book to. You know, we hear you give tribute to your mother in your Oscar speech. Why did you dedicate this book to your dad?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. You, um, you also say you thought about your father, who you dedicate this book to. You know, we hear you give tribute to your mother in your Oscar speech. Why did you dedicate this book to your dad?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> You know, a lot of people know my story as, you know, someone who never gives up. And, you know, it’s pretty remarkable. But when I look — when I sat down to write this book, I realized that it was actually my father who had set that example all his life.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> You know, a lot of people know my story as, you know, someone who never gives up. And, you know, it’s pretty remarkable. But when I look — when I sat down to write this book, I realized that it was actually my father who had set that example all his life.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When you think about it, I mean, it wasn’t one attempt to flee Vietnam. It was three, a total of three attempts. He faced obstacle after obstacle to get our entire family out and never gave up until he successfully did it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When you think about it, I mean, it wasn’t one attempt to flee Vietnam. It was three, a total of three attempts. He faced obstacle after obstacle to get our entire family out and never gave up until he successfully did it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And when he came here, he himself personally was faced with the most challenging thing in his life. He had a massive stroke. And even then, he did not give up.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And when he came here, he himself personally was faced with the most challenging thing in his life. He had a massive stroke. And even then, he did not give up.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In fact, when he took his very last breath, his brain gave out before his heart did. And that’s one of the reasons why I titled this book, \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. To me, it was a nice way to honor his legacy and also everything that he has done for me and my family. He has given us a chance at life, and I could not have been more grateful.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In fact, when he took his very last breath, his brain gave out before his heart did. And that’s one of the reasons why I titled this book, \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. To me, it was a nice way to honor his legacy and also everything that he has done for me and my family. He has given us a chance at life, and I could not have been more grateful.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And writing this book was so, you know, not only was it an emotional roller coaster, but it was also wonderful because I got to walk alongside him once again. It was as if he came alive. And to be able to memorialize him on these pages is something that I’m very proud of.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And writing this book was so, you know, not only was it an emotional roller coaster, but it was also wonderful because I got to walk alongside him once again. It was as if he came alive. And to be able to memorialize him on these pages is something that I’m very proud of.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I actually want to just play one last clip from your Oscar speech, where you give tribute to Echo and also to that persistence.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I actually want to just play one last clip from your Oscar speech, where you give tribute to Echo and also to that persistence.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I owe everything to the love of my life, my wife, Echo, who…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I owe everything to the love of my life, my wife, Echo, who…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Who month after month, year after year for 20 years told me that one day, one day my time will come. Dreams are something you have to believe in. I almost gave up on mine. To all of you out there, please keep your dreams alive.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Who month after month, year after year for 20 years told me that one day, one day my time will come. Dreams are something you have to believe in. I almost gave up on mine. To all of you out there, please keep your dreams alive.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Oh, it still gets me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Oh, it still gets me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It always gets me too. Your speech, really, really memorable.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It always gets me too. Your speech, really, really memorable.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bob writes, “\u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em> is one of my favorite movies ever. And the character Waymond has so much heart. Thanks so much.”\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Bob writes, “\u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em> is one of my favorite movies ever. And the character Waymond has so much heart. Thanks so much.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Viewers who want to know more about the history of Asian Americans in film should check out the documentary \u003cem>Slaying the Dragon\u003c/em>, which my partner teaches in her Asian American culture class.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Viewers who want to know more about the history of Asian Americans in film should check out the documentary \u003cem>Slaying the Dragon\u003c/em>, which my partner teaches in her Asian American culture class.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When you got the part of Waymond, you say you felt like the part was written for you. How so, Ke?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> You know, when I first read the script, I mean, I was blown away by how good it was, but it was also something that I always wanted to read. I was so familiar with reading scripts where, if there was an Asian character, he would only appear, you know, sporadically across the pages. And more often than not, we’re asked to fit into a character rather than something that is written that feels authentic.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> You know, when I first read the script, I mean, I was blown away by how good it was, but it was also something that I always wanted to read. I was so familiar with reading scripts where, if there was an Asian character, he would only appear, you know, sporadically across the pages. And more often than not, we’re asked to fit into a character rather than something that is written that feels authentic.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But here I am reading this, it felt like it was written for me because I understood every version of this character and everything that he was saying, you know, every disappointment, every rejection has led you to this moment. Don’t let anything take you away from it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But here I am reading this, it felt like it was written for me because I understood every version of this character and everything that he was saying, you know, every disappointment, every rejection has led you to this moment. Don’t let anything take you away from it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Uh, I… I knew where those words come from, and every version of Waymond was my life. It felt like I had spent the last 30 years preparing for this role, and here it was.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Uh, I… I knew where those words come from, and every version of Waymond was my life. It felt like I had spent the last 30 years preparing for this role, and here it was.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Uh, and that’s why I — when I — put that script down, I wanted this more than anything in my entire life. I don’t think I ever wanted anything as much as I did.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Uh, and that’s why I — when I — put that script down, I wanted this more than anything in my entire life. I don’t think I ever wanted anything as much as I did.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> came along, I didn’t go searching to be an actor. I didn’t think that I would, you know, it was just… You’d never even been in a movie theater before.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> came along, I didn’t go searching to be an actor. I didn’t think that I would, you know, it was just… You’d never even been in a movie theater before.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Never been in a movie theater. The last thing on my mind was pursuing acting. And all of a sudden, I was just thrown into this incredible world of movie making.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Uh, but now, flash forward 40 years later, I just turned 50. And here was an opportunity that I thought was made for me, but yet I hadn’t done it in 25 years. So it’s very natural for me to think, yeah, you want it. So what are they going to give it to you? You know, I mean.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Uh, but now, flash forward 40 years later, I just turned 50. And here was an opportunity that I thought was made for me, but yet I hadn’t done it in 25 years. So it’s very natural for me to think, yeah, you want it. So what are they going to give it to you? You know, I mean.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Yeah, you were, you know, a lot of times, I felt like, yeah, you were really good as a kid, but that was a long, long time ago. You don’t even know if you have what it takes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Yeah, you were, you know, a lot of times, I felt like, yeah, you were really good as a kid, but that was a long, long time ago. You don’t even know if you have what it takes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When I, when I stepped back, my goal was only to have like a small role in maybe a, you know, as a series regular, uh, that I could do week after week and have that steady paycheck. Uh, that was, that was it. Uh, and this felt so impossible.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> But you got it, and it really is — many listeners are commenting on that film and also many listeners are also commenting on sort of just your warmth.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> But you got it, and it really is — many listeners are commenting on that film and also many listeners are also commenting on sort of just your warmth.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Okay, let me remind listeners you’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Halina in Fremont is on the line. Halina, go ahead.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Okay, let me remind listeners you’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Halina in Fremont is on the line. Halina, go ahead.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> Thank you very much. Hi, Ke. I’m so fascinated by your story. My husband and I, we are first-generation Chinese immigrants, so I understand quite of the experience you shared. Not as harsh as yours, but the main thing I want to share with you is that your story, your theory, your ethic of work not only resonated with the same age, same group, but also inspiring the new generation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> Thank you very much. Hi, Ke. I’m so fascinated by your story. My husband and I, we are first-generation Chinese immigrants, so I understand quite of the experience you shared. Not as harsh as yours, but the main thing I want to share with you is that your story, your theory, your ethic of work not only resonated with the same age, same group, but also inspiring the new generation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>My daughter was born here, grew up here. She’s a college student in journalism major. She read through all the things about you. We went to — she goes to see the movie herself as well, so she’s absolutely a lover of the movie.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>My daughter was born here, grew up here. She’s a college student in journalism major. She read through all the things about you. We went to — she goes to see the movie herself as well, so she’s absolutely a lover of the movie.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And your work ethic, the whole experience you shared with the audience, inspired her so much. Because she is also trying to get into the reporting and entertainment industry. It’s not easy for young people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And your work ethic, the whole experience you shared with the audience, inspired her so much. Because she is also trying to get into the reporting and entertainment industry. It’s not easy for young people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But she told me that, you know what, I listened to so many of my quote-unquote heroes talking about how they struggle, how they survive, how do they make all the effort. I don’t think I have any other choice. I need to continue pushing through until one day I have a breakthrough.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But she told me that, you know what, I listened to so many of my quote-unquote heroes talking about how they struggle, how they survive, how do they make all the effort. I don’t think I have any other choice. I need to continue pushing through until one day I have a breakthrough.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I want to share with you. Continue.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> That’s so sweet. Thank you for sharing that. I think that’s what gives me the greatest joy, is I didn’t know that my story would resonate with so many people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> That’s so sweet. Thank you for sharing that. I think that’s what gives me the greatest joy, is I didn’t know that my story would resonate with so many people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And ever since the book came out, the reception has been really positive, and I’ve met and gotten, you know, many messages saying that they see themselves in my story.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And ever since the book came out, the reception has been really positive, and I’ve met and gotten, you know, many messages saying that they see themselves in my story.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Uh, and that was my — that’s what I was hoping for when I set out to write this book. So thank you for sharing that. That really means a lot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Uh, and that was my — that’s what I was hoping for when I set out to write this book. So thank you for sharing that. That really means a lot.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The listener on Discord writes, “I think for everyone who saw it, Ke’s Oscar speech created a moment where he celebrated his perseverance while questioning your own. Yes, there are things in life I wish I’d kept at, yet others I wish had given up sooner. It was a real self-mirror moment.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The listener on Discord writes, “I think for everyone who saw it, Ke’s Oscar speech created a moment where he celebrated his perseverance while questioning your own. Yes, there are things in life I wish I’d kept at, yet others I wish had given up sooner. It was a real self-mirror moment.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Another listener in San Francisco writes, “Ke, after your success with \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>, will there continue to be more opportunities for Asian-American actors? Where does he want his career to go from here?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Another listener in San Francisco writes, “Ke, after your success with \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>, will there continue to be more opportunities for Asian-American actors? Where does he want his career to go from here?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s interesting, right? Because, so yes, what are you seeing with regard to the landscape for Asian-American actors, but also how do you think about the question now? Because there is no guarantee that work will continue for you either, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It’s interesting, right? Because, so yes, what are you seeing with regard to the landscape for Asian-American actors, but also how do you think about the question now? Because there is no guarantee that work will continue for you either, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So how do you think about that question of where you want your career to go from here, or handling an industry where there are no guarantees?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yes, that’s a big question. Here’s the difference between me now and the 30-year-old, you know, me. I’m no longer afraid of failure. It would no longer define me. I had failed before, I had gotten back up. And I’ve tried and I’ve tried and I’ve tried again. And here I am.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yes, that’s a big question. Here’s the difference between me now and the 30-year-old, you know, me. I’m no longer afraid of failure. It would no longer define me. I had failed before, I had gotten back up. And I’ve tried and I’ve tried and I’ve tried again. And here I am.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But in terms of — and you’re absolutely right, I mean, who knows what the next five, ten years entail? And the truth is, we have made a lot of progress in the last 10, 15 years. There have been a lot of wonderful movies that portrayed our community accurately and authentically and all of that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But in terms of — and you’re absolutely right, I mean, who knows what the next five, ten years entail? And the truth is, we have made a lot of progress in the last 10, 15 years. There have been a lot of wonderful movies that portrayed our community accurately and authentically and all of that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But moving forward, I’m a little wary just of how everything that has happened in the last year, year and a half. I feel like, you know, all the progress that we have made, we have taken a couple of steps back, and I’m looking — I’m curious to see where this is all going to go.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But moving forward, I’m a little wary just of how everything that has happened in the last year, year and a half. I feel like, you know, all the progress that we have made, we have taken a couple of steps back, and I’m looking — I’m curious to see where this is all going to go.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But here’s what I want to say. I wouldn’t be here if there wasn’t all these incredible — this incredible generation of young people who are really so outspoken, demand a change, they’re very vocal about what they want to see, what they wanted it to be represented up on the screen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But here’s what I want to say. I wouldn’t be here if there wasn’t all these incredible — this incredible generation of young people who are really so outspoken, demand a change, they’re very vocal about what they want to see, what they wanted it to be represented up on the screen.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think we need to continue that. But yeah, I don’t know. That’s a great question.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I’ve been wondering myself about how the landscape is still right now in Hollywood.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I’ve been wondering myself about how the landscape is still right now in Hollywood.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But in the meantime, thank you so much for putting all of this about yourself out in the world after describing sort of the struggles that you had to think about that and do that, Ke. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But in the meantime, thank you so much for putting all of this about yourself out in the world after describing sort of the struggles that you had to think about that and do that, Ke. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The book is \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>, and my guest is Ke Huy Quan. And I want to thank Jared Sport for producing this segment, and as always, to our listeners for sharing their own stories and questions and struggles and dreams.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The book is \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>, and my guest is Ke Huy Quan. And I want to thank Jared Sport for producing this segment, and as always, to our listeners for sharing their own stories and questions and struggles and dreams.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And also I want to wish our former host, longtime host Michael Krasny, a happy birthday today. You’ve been listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And also I want to wish our former host, longtime host Michael Krasny, a happy birthday today. You’ve been listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Announcer:\u003c/strong> Funds for the production of \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> are provided by the Jenerosity Family Fund and the members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Tuesday, September 22, 2026 at 10 am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Actor Ke Huy Quan’s family fled post-war Vietnam and lived in a Hong Kong refugee camp before his unlikely turn as an iconic 1980s child star. He stumbled into a casting call for “Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom” at 12 years old, then rolled right into “The Goonies.” But as he transitioned into adulthood, roles started drying up. After decades of rejection, Quan made an Oscar-winning comeback in “Everything Everywhere All at Once.” In his new memoir, “Never Say Die,” Quan shares his forty-year journey of perseverance and self-discovery.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan,\u003c/strong> Academy Award-winning actor; author, “Never Say Die”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. When Ke Huy Quan walked on stage in 2023 to accept the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor in \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>, he did not hold back tears.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Thank you. My mom is 84 years old and she’s at home watching. Mom, I just won an Oscar.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> For Quan, his path to Hollywood’s highest honor included decades of painful self-doubt and very few roles, this after a big-screen debut in the ’80s at the age of 12 as Short Round in \u003cem>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Short Round, step on it! Okie dokie, Dr. Jones, hold onto your potato!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It’s a journey Quan chronicles in his new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. And he joins me now. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, Ke.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Mina, hey, thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Oh, it’s so wonderful to have you and to have been able to learn so much about your life, especially starting out as the kid that I, you know, maybe the first Asian kid actor I ever saw in a film, Short Round.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Ha, ha, ha! Well, I’m very proud of that. I don’t know if that’s a good thing or not. It just goes to show you how underrepresented we were back then.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you write actually in your book that it was a moment when you got that part, when your life split into a clear before and after. First, can you just talk about getting that part in 1983? Because it was basically accidental, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yes, it was. It was only a few years since we immigrated to Chinatown, Los Angeles, and I was busy acclimating into this new life, learning this new language. And we were ESL students, so we would go on every Saturday morning to get extra help with vocabulary and reading comprehension.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And normally it’s really quiet until that one Saturday while we were studying. We noticed that people kept showing up, more and more people. It was parents with their kids heading into the building, and it really piqued my little brother David’s interest. And he said, “Hey, what’s going on?” And our tutors said, “Didn’t you see the flyers everywhere? They’re looking for a Chinese kid to be in a big Hollywood movie.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that was the first time we heard it. And after the tutoring session, my brother wanted to go check out to see what’s going on and wanted to give it a try, and I tagged along. Walked into a hallway filled with Asian kids reciting lines that they were told to memorize, and that’s how it all began.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and you were feeling like, so David signs up to do this and you are feeling like he’s not really bringing it, right? What the casting directors are asking for, so you start coaching—\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> In front of the casting directors? Here’s the thing. It actually came out of my love for my brother. We would watch TV and reenact scenes together, so I know how good he can be. But being in front of the camera, I felt like he was a little nervous and he was holding back. And the casting directors weren’t seeing him the way I see him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And thinking that they don’t understand Cantonese, so I just jumped out of the chair and started screaming at him, you know, in Cantonese, kind of directing him what to do. And unbeknownst to me, their attention started to turn to me. So when my brother finished, they asked me if I would stay behind and read for them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Incredible. And then, of course, you know, they knew right then that they had their Short Round. And you also talk about auditioning in front of Steven Spielberg and Harrison Ford and George Lucas and how they really embraced you as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But this was not an experience that you had had leading up to this. Let’s talk about the before, living in post-war Vietnam and needing to flee with your family in 1977. Why did you make that decision? What was happening? Or why did your parents make that decision?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Well, you know, this is 1977, post-Vietnam War, and our lives prior to that were really good. I mean, my parents were successful middle-class business people, and they had every intention of building a life for all of us there. And when that future looked bleak, they had no choice but to make the incredibly difficult decision to get all of us out of there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, and it was, uh, it was really traumatic. I was only seven years old. I didn’t know what was going on. I wasn’t given any information. Uh, all I knew was one day I was playing with my little brother and the next, being woken up in the middle of the night, being carried over my dad’s shoulder and carried into a waiting car.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that was our very first attempt to escape. We made a total of three attempts. The first two were unsuccessful and landed me in jail. So by the time I turned eight, I had spent, you know, the first time three weeks, the second time three months in jail, and it was not until the third attempt, then as long as you can pay, you would have a spot on the ship and everything was out in the open.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and your family’s savings have been confiscated when you were arrested, and incredibly, spending that much time in jail as a little kid. But as you say, he gets the money to secure passage, basically in the cargo hold of a boat, by borrowing it. And you’re with 3,000 others packed in, experiencing bouts of seasickness and so on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But talk about when you finally make it to Hong Kong. The country won’t take you in, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah. After we spent seven treacherous days, you know, out in the South China Sea — you understand, this was winter. Almost all of us were city people, never been on a boat before, so those waves were big and the boat was rocking, like, really violently. Pretty much every single one of us were vomiting left and right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when we finally made it to Hong Kong, we thought that, wow, we had made it now. You know, everything’s gonna be all right. But once we got there, we got the terrible news that the Hong Kong government would not allow us to come on board. And we were desperate. We were hungry. The sanitation was really awful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And we ended up spending more than a month on the shore of Hong Kong, while this incredible organization called United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, UNHCR, stepped in and worked with countries all over the world to convince Hong Kong that if they were to allow us to come ashore, that they would help to get us off of their hands.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that’s what happened. And we ended up spending more than a year in a refugee camp.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to invite listeners into the conversation. Listen, we’re talking with Ke Huy Quan, Academy Award-winning actor for \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em> and now the author of a new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. Maybe you remember seeing him in \u003cem>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom\u003c/em> or as Data in \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, or are familiar with his recent voicing of Gary De’Snake in \u003cem>Zootopia 2\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Tell us what your questions are for Ke, what you want to say, what your favorite movies of his are or his work, or what parts of Ke’s story resonate with you, maybe feel similar to yours. You can email forum@kqed.org, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786. Again, that’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, one of the stories of the most painful memories of rejection in Hong Kong that really struck me was when you actually go to your aunt’s home to visit, to have a meal with her and her family. Can you talk about what happened there?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yes. My mom was born in Hong Kong, so her family lives in Hong Kong. And one day, you know, the refugee camp that we stayed in, we were allowed to go in and out. My older siblings were allowed to go work, so they were all supporting themselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And being the youngest of six with my dad, I didn’t have much to do. So one day when I found out that my aunt invited me and my sister to a home to have dinner, I was so excited. My dad bought me a brand-new outfit, and I hadn’t had a home-cooked meal in, you know, months. And here I am, you know, getting invited to my mom’s sister, older sister’s apartment. And I thought that, you know, she looked like my mom and I thought everything was going to be great.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When I sat down to have dinner, I didn’t understand what the Hong Kong culture was like. Everybody had their own customized pair of chopsticks with their name on it. But I was so excited, I was hungry. I sat and started eating and literally didn’t know that I was actually using my cousin’s pair of chopsticks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I was called out on it right away. And I witnessed my aunt took the very same pair of chopsticks that I had used into the kitchen, washed it extensively, and poured hot boiling water over it. And at that age, I didn’t understand why she did that. I thought we were family.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, of course, many years later, uh… I understand. I don’t think she was trying to hurt me in any other way, but it was just this fear that everyone had, you know, we were refugees, and there was that stigma that comes with it. And because of little information that was known about all of us, I mean, she thought that we would carry disease. And, yeah, it was — it was, you know, a moment that I never forgot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, it’s a moment you never got — you finally reunite with your mom and siblings in Los Angeles’ Chinatown in ’79. They had gone ahead and you had been separated from them. But how does that experience shape your sort of sense of self or your place in the world early on? And we’re coming up on a break. Sorry about that, Ke, but we just have about 30 seconds.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Uh, it really, you know, when I sat down and write this book, it really made me confront my own identity, uh, and as a refugee and what that label carried. And for so many years, I was really ashamed of it. Um, I didn’t know, you know, I think it really shaped who I am today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we’re talking with Ke Huy Quan. And so are you, listeners, at 866-733-6786, on our social channels at KQED Forum, and you can email Forum at kqed.org. More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. We’re talking this hour with actor Ke Huy Quan, who played Waymond in 2022’s \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>, which he won the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor. He has a new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. And here’s a clip of a press interview Ke gave in 1984 about getting the part of Short Round in \u003cem>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I think I changed a lot and I was a bold people and now I get to make the movie. Do you think you’ve been very lucky? Yes, definitely. I think I’m very lucky, and I’m number seven in my family. That’s a lucky number.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What’s it like to hear that, Ke, or voice?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I’m so precocious. And I think that’s how I got the role too, I’m sure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That played a big part. Well, we’ve got a call coming in from Lubna in Palo Alto. Lubna, join us. You’re on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much. I wanted to just congratulate the guest on his success and just overcoming so much in his life and being successful. It’s wonderful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We are of South Asian descent, and my son is just embarking on his acting career after graduating from school, college. And we know that Brown people are having a moment. But we don’t know how long this moment will last. And we were just wondering, what advice do you have for someone just starting out, you know, Indian-Pakistani descent, trying to land roles and get noticed and, you know, where, of course, still the majority of roles do not go to people of minority descent?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Great question. Thanks for calling in. Yeah, I mean, you know, if I’m being honest, it is very difficult. And my advice is that you have to be prepared for a lot of rejections. And make sure that the belief you have in yourself doesn’t waver. And work really hard. Don’t give up and don’t let anybody… you know, tell you anything different.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think it’s really important. If you look at my story, you know, I wouldn’t be here talking to you if I didn’t persevere. A lot of times, you know, we don’t know what’s right around the corner. But if we stop, we’ll never see it. So we have to always keep going and work really hard and be patient because, you know, I believe that everyone — you know, everyone has their own time and that time will come one day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, talk about what happened in those years after \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> and \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, right? Another big hit and the film you reference in your title, \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. You know, after that, you wanted nothing more than to be an actor, but pretty quickly, like within a few years, the roles, the calls, they just stopped.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you know, my career went south rather quickly. I mean, you would think, you know, to start at 12 years old and having done \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> and \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, too, hugely popular movies, that I would have a very bright future. But by the time I turned 18 years old, when everybody is very optimistic on what their path would look like, mine looked very different.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, and I didn’t really know, you know, what I would do. But there was one thing I was sure of, was that I wanted to be an actor. In fact, I was only 13 when I knew I wanted to be an actor for the rest of my life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, those years were very hard. But luckily, you know, I never forgot what inspired me, because every time I got dejected… I would go to the movie theater and I would watch a great movie, a great performance by an actor. I would be totally immersed in it and I would walk out feeling so motivated and I’ll go back home, lock myself in the room and start playing out those scenes that I love, kind of reenact, kind of put myself in that character’s shoes and try to, you know, and have my own moment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think it’s the movie theater that really kept my passion alive all these years. But they were not easy years. It wasn’t a short time. It was a very long time. I call them the quiet years in my book.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and then they last about 30 years. I was struck by the story of you talking about hitting puberty and your voice changing, but not in the way that most people’s voices change.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I remember when I had to go back to public school because I wasn’t working anymore. And I would, you know, the first three days I would show up at the cafeteria and I didn’t have any friends and I felt so alone. And I felt like just because of my fame in the movies that I had done, I felt everyone was watching me. Maybe they weren’t, but it felt like that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I lasted no more than three days, and then I would get in my car and then just then every lunchtime I would go to McDonald’s. I would go to the drive-thru and order a hamburger, french fries and a Coke, and the lady that works there would always say, “Oh, thank you, ma’am. Please pull up to the first window.” It was always “ma’am.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, I realized that I sound like — yeah, I sound very different than I imagined. And then I would go back the next day and I would try to speak a little bit lower voice. “Hey, yes, uh…”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> “Can I have a hamburger, french fries and a Coke, please?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it will be the same thing: “Thank you, ma’am. Please pull up to the first window.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> All right, you said your voice went higher when you were eating.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> But you know, it’s interesting because I remember there’s a story that I tell in the book. This was like after Michael Jackson had come to visit \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em> and he invited all of us to his Victory Tour. And one day, just out of the blue, I got a call from him and my brother picked it up and I was in the other room and he screamed really loud, “Ke! Some girl is looking for you!”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, and, uh, and I just realized, I guess that’s the, you know, that’s the, um, uh, little thing that Michael Jackson and I have in common, which sound a bit different.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The other thing that you did that I think also speaks to the struggle of that time is you changed your name to Jonathan. And can you also tell the story about sort of the awkwardness of seeing your former castmate from \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, Sean Astin, who asks you about changing your name?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, uh, I was 18 years old and I just got naturalized, so I was going to become an American citizen. Uh, so, you know, I’m filling out all these paperwork and it was at the same time my manager had suggested for some time that I should change to a more American-sounding name, and also it didn’t sound like a bad idea at that time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because every time I would walk into a casting room, my fame and my name would always walk in before I did. And I felt like my past was holding me back. It wasn’t helping me in any way. It was kind of hindering me from getting the opportunities that I wanted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I thought, yeah, it sounds like a great idea. So that’s what I did. I mean, honestly, at that point in my life, I would have done anything to change the status quo.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because everywhere I look, everyone was doing so well, my co-stars from \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, Sean Astin, Corey Feldman, and all the child actors that I grew up with. They were all doing movies and TV shows, one after the other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And there was one moment when I walked on the set of \u003cem>Encino Man\u003c/em>, and Sean was the star of that movie. I had a very small role, and we met. And that was — I mean, he didn’t know that I had changed my name. So he kind of looked at me. I mean, he was still the same Sean that I remember. He was very warm, gave me a big hug. And then he asked, “Jonathan? Like, when did that happen?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I go, “Yeah, you know, I go by that now.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And he was so sweet. And he said, “You will always be Ke to me.” Uh, and I remember that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Well, the Discord user Turd writes, “Kwan is a really great person. He’s so positive and delighted despite having to deal with many challenges. He never seems bitter about his setbacks. What an inspiration.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Another listener on Discord writes, “Kwan was great in \u003cem>Loki\u003c/em>, very cool to see him pop up there.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ke, I understand when you were sort of first presented with the idea of writing a memoir, your impulse was to say no. Why?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Oh, yes. I mean, you know, I never shared my own personal struggles with anyone. In fact, there are so many stories in this book that I never shared, not even with my wife or my family until now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, it was just how I was raised. Uh, I grew up in a very traditional Chinese-value family. None of us share our feelings with each other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, I thought, you know, during the whole awards season of \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>, first time coming back, there were a lot of personal questions that I was being asked, but I was also very careful in answering them. I just opened the door a little bit, just to allow people a glimpse of what I had went through.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But writing a memoir is completely different. And I knew that if I were to do this, I would have to be very candid, uh, and share everything. And just the thought of that scared — scared me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, but every time I’ve met so many fans on the streets and at different events, and they’ve always told me that my story really resonated with them and it helped them through a difficult time. And I just thought that, well, you know, if I can do this and play a small role in helping, you know, people who are struggling, if I can help them, give them strength and courage, and also help them feel a little less alone, then this entire journey will be worthwhile.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Why did it scare you? I mean, I know you say there were stories that you never shared with people close to you. But why did that scare you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I think I had such huge success at a very young age. And then not long after that, I felt like a failure. And I really kept that to myself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I felt my best years were behind me. And honestly, Mina, it’s one of the worst feelings you can have when you are 18 years old or when you’re in your early twenties, to feel like, wow, you know, your best years are behind you rather than, you know, to have something to look forward to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So there were a lot of those feelings that I had during the quiet years that I didn’t want people to know about. I wanted people to see, you know, the happier side of me. Those were, those were really difficult days that… that I didn’t know that I would have the strength to share.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Listeners, what do you want to ask or tell Ke Huy Quan? What parts of Ke’s story feel similar to yours or resonate with you? Did you see his Oscar speech? Have you struggled to hold onto a dream? The email address is forum@kqed.org. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Chris writes, “What was it like as one of the earliest young Asian-American actors? It must have been hard balancing our Asian-American career expectations with stardom and Hollywood in that era.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ke, did you also, you know, feel pressure? Like, did you feel like you had sort of career expectations from your family and so on that so many Asian-American kids say that they experience?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Oh, yes. I mean, when you hit it big at such a young age, I mean, it’s understandable that your family and all your friends and, you know, and the public expect you to — you would go on to have this incredible career.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And also, back then, I mean, there were not a lot of us working in Hollywood. So I felt really proud when people in our community would come up to me and say, “Wow, you know, I went to school, people call me Short Round, people call me Data.” That was, you know, that made me feel good.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So there’s that pressure, but also the same, I mean, I started out so young, honestly. I didn’t think much of it. It was not until years later did I really understand, one, how lucky I was, what I was going through, but also, I just really wanted to, I guess because of my background, because of where my journey started as a refugee and all of that. So to get that validation from everyone made me feel great.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. The after. Can you talk about that moment when you decided you couldn’t do auditions anymore? You tell the story about trying to get this part as a Viet Cong soldier, and then sort of realize how desperately you wanted a part that just had two…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Lines. Yeah, that decision didn’t come easily and it wasn’t, you know, spontaneous or, you know, it was just like, okay, one day I just decided that I don’t want to do this anymore. It’s over a span of many, many years of just doing nothing, waiting by the phone to ring.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, I guess the best way I can describe it is… I felt like the world was still spinning. Everyone was moving forward at a very fast pace while I was just standing still.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There were so many, many sleepless nights staring up at the ceiling, wondering if my tomorrow will be better than today. And it’s really disheartening when you go to an audition after nine months, a year, and just everything rides on that one audition and hoping to land it. And when you get rejected again, and again, and again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then finally, I think what really broke was in 1993, when I auditioned for that, you know, that Viet Cong role. Didn’t have a character name. It had two lines. Again, there were like 50 other Asian actors fighting for this little, little tiny role. And when I didn’t even get that, then I really started to question, “Wait, do I still wanna do this? Like, how long do I wanna continue down this path when I didn’t see the light at the end of the tunnel?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it was the hardest — one of the hardest decisions I’ve ever made.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it definitely sounded that way. And then you, you know, tried to stay in the world, but just not in acting specifically, right? You go to USC and get a film degree. You, you know, learn about stunt roles and so on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, up until that point, you know, all I knew, you know, was about the movie business is from an actor’s point of view. I didn’t know, like, what a costume designer did or cinematography or editor. I didn’t understand what it takes to put a movie together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so now here I am. There are no more acting jobs. What am I going to do? I didn’t know how to do anything else. I was 25. So it’s been seven years since high school, and I felt like I don’t know a lot and I need to go back to school.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I didn’t want to leave this industry, so the only thing that made sense to me was film school. Luckily, when I applied, I got in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> He was a refugee from Vietnam who shot to stardom as Short Round in \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> when he was 12, but after quick success, his acting career ground to a halt. And he’s talking about those decades of painful self-doubt and few roles. He shares them in a new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>, and we’ll have more with him and with you, listeners, after the break. Stay with us. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. We’re talking this hour with Academy Award-winning actor Ke Huy Quan, who won for 2022’s \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>. He has a new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em> about his years — very early of quick success as Short Round in \u003cem>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom\u003c/em> and Data in \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>. But then as he grew older, the roles dried up, but him never giving up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And listeners, what are your questions for Ke about his work, his life, his story? Did you — do you remember his Oscar speech? And does it make you think about the dreams that you have struggled to hold onto or that you’ve kept alive? 866-733-6786, the number. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, email forum@kqed.org.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jeremy in San Francisco writes, “Your role in \u003cem>Zootopia 2\u003c/em> really inspired me. I was shocked by how impactful that movie was. After hearing more about your story, I’m wondering if you see parallels between Gary the Snake and your life.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Talk about doing Gary the Snake for \u003cem>Zootopia 2\u003c/em>. Too cute. It’s actually a film that my kids absolutely loved as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I love that movie. I’m so proud of it. I still remember the day I went into a Disney Animation building to meet with the creative team, and when they offered me the role, I really, you know, I was so thrilled because I was a big fan of the first one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in terms of do I see any parallels between myself and Gary the Snake? I mean, he’s so different in ways where he looks, you know, very intimidating because he’s a, you know, venomous pit viper. I don’t think I look intimidating at all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I think what we do share in common is having respect and kindness for the people around us. You know, he’s a big, goofy guy with a big heart, and that’s how I kind of like to think of myself that way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Also, you know, he has to deal with stigma, he has to try to reunite with his family, and tries to feel whole again. We actually have a clip from the film, you know, where he’s trying to explain that he’s trying to change the narrative about himself and reunite with his family before the character Nick Wilde, not realizing this, bops him on the head. Let’s hear it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> This is our only chance to set things right. And when I do, my family will finally be able to come home.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I am here! Cops and Wiles. Dream team. We got him. So good. I love that movie so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You know, so it was the 2018 film \u003cem>Crazy Rich Asians\u003c/em>, right, that sort of reignites your desire to act again? Because before the book, we were talking about how you made the decision just to stop doing it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, it’s all true. I mean, also, like, a few years prior to the movie came out, I mean, I started to see the landscape in Hollywood started changing. You know, you would have a wonderful, successful show called \u003cem>Fresh Off the Boat\u003c/em> on ABC. And, you know, more and more Asian actors were playing no longer like a one-dimensional buttered-Joe kind of character, but they’re more nuanced, you know, contributing to the stories.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I was beginning to see a lot of that, but I didn’t think much of it. I mean, I thought I had buried my, you know, the acting bug for many years. I thought that chapter of my life was over.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It was not until when I was in that movie theater on opening weekend and, you know, the room was filled with people, all kinds of people. And in the very beginning, I enjoyed it. I was watching it as if you would watch it as an audience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But somewhere along the line, this tiny thought started creeping into my head. And I go, “Wow, wouldn’t it be great if I was up there with them instead of here hearing the audience watching?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And really, that was the moment. The idea of getting back to acting started percolating. And I didn’t make the decision right away. I mean, it would be another year before I decided to finally do it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and you say that your wife didn’t know you as an actor and that, you know, you actually sort of voiced carefully, you know, that desire to act again to her.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah. When we met, you know, she didn’t know me as an actor. She knew me as this, in fact, aspiring filmmaker. I graduated from USC. I was working for Wong Kar-wai, and I wanted to, you know, I was thinking that, oh, once when I get enough experience, I’m going to go out and direct my own film.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, and she believed that. She said, “You’re going to make a great filmmaker one day.” Uh, and she’s been so supportive, whatever I want to do. She’s always like my biggest cheering squad, you know, uh, and, and she would say, “Well, if you want to go for it.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that was how that was, how it really began. So when I sat her down and I said, “Hey, what do you think about if I would act again?” I think it really surprised her because we never, we never ever talked about that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In fact, even… you know, the year leading up to that conversation, it was all in my head. I never said it out loud. But once when she found out that I was serious, she was so supportive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. You, um, you also say you thought about your father, who you dedicate this book to. You know, we hear you give tribute to your mother in your Oscar speech. Why did you dedicate this book to your dad?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> You know, a lot of people know my story as, you know, someone who never gives up. And, you know, it’s pretty remarkable. But when I look — when I sat down to write this book, I realized that it was actually my father who had set that example all his life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When you think about it, I mean, it wasn’t one attempt to flee Vietnam. It was three, a total of three attempts. He faced obstacle after obstacle to get our entire family out and never gave up until he successfully did it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when he came here, he himself personally was faced with the most challenging thing in his life. He had a massive stroke. And even then, he did not give up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In fact, when he took his very last breath, his brain gave out before his heart did. And that’s one of the reasons why I titled this book, \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. To me, it was a nice way to honor his legacy and also everything that he has done for me and my family. He has given us a chance at life, and I could not have been more grateful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And writing this book was so, you know, not only was it an emotional roller coaster, but it was also wonderful because I got to walk alongside him once again. It was as if he came alive. And to be able to memorialize him on these pages is something that I’m very proud of.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I actually want to just play one last clip from your Oscar speech, where you give tribute to Echo and also to that persistence.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I owe everything to the love of my life, my wife, Echo, who…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Who month after month, year after year for 20 years told me that one day, one day my time will come. Dreams are something you have to believe in. I almost gave up on mine. To all of you out there, please keep your dreams alive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Oh, it still gets me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It always gets me too. Your speech, really, really memorable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bob writes, “\u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em> is one of my favorite movies ever. And the character Waymond has so much heart. Thanks so much.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Viewers who want to know more about the history of Asian Americans in film should check out the documentary \u003cem>Slaying the Dragon\u003c/em>, which my partner teaches in her Asian American culture class.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When you got the part of Waymond, you say you felt like the part was written for you. How so, Ke?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> You know, when I first read the script, I mean, I was blown away by how good it was, but it was also something that I always wanted to read. I was so familiar with reading scripts where, if there was an Asian character, he would only appear, you know, sporadically across the pages. And more often than not, we’re asked to fit into a character rather than something that is written that feels authentic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But here I am reading this, it felt like it was written for me because I understood every version of this character and everything that he was saying, you know, every disappointment, every rejection has led you to this moment. Don’t let anything take you away from it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, I… I knew where those words come from, and every version of Waymond was my life. It felt like I had spent the last 30 years preparing for this role, and here it was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, and that’s why I — when I — put that script down, I wanted this more than anything in my entire life. I don’t think I ever wanted anything as much as I did.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> came along, I didn’t go searching to be an actor. I didn’t think that I would, you know, it was just… You’d never even been in a movie theater before.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Never been in a movie theater. The last thing on my mind was pursuing acting. And all of a sudden, I was just thrown into this incredible world of movie making.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, but now, flash forward 40 years later, I just turned 50. And here was an opportunity that I thought was made for me, but yet I hadn’t done it in 25 years. So it’s very natural for me to think, yeah, you want it. So what are they going to give it to you? You know, I mean.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yeah, you were, you know, a lot of times, I felt like, yeah, you were really good as a kid, but that was a long, long time ago. You don’t even know if you have what it takes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When I, when I stepped back, my goal was only to have like a small role in maybe a, you know, as a series regular, uh, that I could do week after week and have that steady paycheck. Uh, that was, that was it. Uh, and this felt so impossible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> But you got it, and it really is — many listeners are commenting on that film and also many listeners are also commenting on sort of just your warmth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Okay, let me remind listeners you’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Halina in Fremont is on the line. Halina, go ahead.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> Thank you very much. Hi, Ke. I’m so fascinated by your story. My husband and I, we are first-generation Chinese immigrants, so I understand quite of the experience you shared. Not as harsh as yours, but the main thing I want to share with you is that your story, your theory, your ethic of work not only resonated with the same age, same group, but also inspiring the new generation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>My daughter was born here, grew up here. She’s a college student in journalism major. She read through all the things about you. We went to — she goes to see the movie herself as well, so she’s absolutely a lover of the movie.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And your work ethic, the whole experience you shared with the audience, inspired her so much. Because she is also trying to get into the reporting and entertainment industry. It’s not easy for young people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But she told me that, you know what, I listened to so many of my quote-unquote heroes talking about how they struggle, how they survive, how do they make all the effort. I don’t think I have any other choice. I need to continue pushing through until one day I have a breakthrough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I want to share with you. Continue.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> That’s so sweet. Thank you for sharing that. I think that’s what gives me the greatest joy, is I didn’t know that my story would resonate with so many people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And ever since the book came out, the reception has been really positive, and I’ve met and gotten, you know, many messages saying that they see themselves in my story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, and that was my — that’s what I was hoping for when I set out to write this book. So thank you for sharing that. That really means a lot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The listener on Discord writes, “I think for everyone who saw it, Ke’s Oscar speech created a moment where he celebrated his perseverance while questioning your own. Yes, there are things in life I wish I’d kept at, yet others I wish had given up sooner. It was a real self-mirror moment.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Another listener in San Francisco writes, “Ke, after your success with \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>, will there continue to be more opportunities for Asian-American actors? Where does he want his career to go from here?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s interesting, right? Because, so yes, what are you seeing with regard to the landscape for Asian-American actors, but also how do you think about the question now? Because there is no guarantee that work will continue for you either, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So how do you think about that question of where you want your career to go from here, or handling an industry where there are no guarantees?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yes, that’s a big question. Here’s the difference between me now and the 30-year-old, you know, me. I’m no longer afraid of failure. It would no longer define me. I had failed before, I had gotten back up. And I’ve tried and I’ve tried and I’ve tried again. And here I am.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But in terms of — and you’re absolutely right, I mean, who knows what the next five, ten years entail? And the truth is, we have made a lot of progress in the last 10, 15 years. There have been a lot of wonderful movies that portrayed our community accurately and authentically and all of that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But moving forward, I’m a little wary just of how everything that has happened in the last year, year and a half. I feel like, you know, all the progress that we have made, we have taken a couple of steps back, and I’m looking — I’m curious to see where this is all going to go.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But here’s what I want to say. I wouldn’t be here if there wasn’t all these incredible — this incredible generation of young people who are really so outspoken, demand a change, they’re very vocal about what they want to see, what they wanted it to be represented up on the screen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think we need to continue that. But yeah, I don’t know. That’s a great question.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I’ve been wondering myself about how the landscape is still right now in Hollywood.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But in the meantime, thank you so much for putting all of this about yourself out in the world after describing sort of the struggles that you had to think about that and do that, Ke. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The book is \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>, and my guest is Ke Huy Quan. And I want to thank Jared Sport for producing this segment, and as always, to our listeners for sharing their own stories and questions and struggles and dreams.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And also I want to wish our former host, longtime host Michael Krasny, a happy birthday today. You’ve been listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Announcer:\u003c/strong> Funds for the production of \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> are provided by the Jenerosity Family Fund and the members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Monday, September 21, 2026 at 10 am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When animal advocates in Humboldt County unearthed dog carcasses on the property of Miranda’s Rescue, they exposed an alleged cruelty and fraud operation that has shocked animal welfare groups across the state. A sprawling multi-agency investigation has since revealed mass graves, dozens of canine skulls and records for hundreds of unaccounted-for dogs transferred from municipal shelters to a sanctuary that marketed itself as a “no-kill” refuge. We’ll look at the latest findings in the investigation, explore why prior warnings were overlooked and discuss what it will take to reform California’s strained animal rescue system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis,\u003c/strong> criminal justice reporter, KQED; host and reporter; “On Our Watch”; co-founder, the California Reporting Project\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond, \u003c/strong>founder of Humboldt Spay/Neuter Clinic; founder of Humboldt Critters without Litters\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore,\u003c/strong> animal advocate; whistleblower who kicked off the Miranda’s Rescue investigation\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Shannon Miranda,\u003c/strong> owner, Miranda’s Rescue\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. A no-kill shelter in Fortuna called Miranda’s Rescue describes itself as a safe haven for animals, a place to heal and educate. And for years, shelters from across California have sent animals there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, Miranda’s Rescue is under investigation by the Humboldt County Sheriff’s Office, the FBI and other law enforcement agencies, after two county residents, Jennifer Raymond and Jenna Moore, found eight dogs buried in a grave on the property and alerted authorities. To date, no formal charges have been filed against the rescue’s owner.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And this hour, we get the latest on the investigation with KQED criminal justice reporter Sukey Lewis, who joins us now. Hi, Sukey.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> Hi. Good morning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also with us, the two animal advocates who found the dogs and triggered the investigation. Jennifer Raymond is in studio with me, co-founder of Humboldt’s Spay Neuter Clinic. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, Jennifer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> Thank you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also, Jenna Moore joins us from KRED, a radio station in Eureka. Jenna, glad to have you with us too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> Yes, thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Jennifer, I want to start with you. Tell me about that night you found those eight dogs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> Well, we knew that he must be killing dogs, and there was a large pile of dirt and a big hole on the property. We had put up trail cams to watch, and on a Sunday afternoon, a bright and sunny afternoon, we saw him come out on his tractor with the bucket with straw in it, meaning the owner of the rescue, Shannon Miranda. And he turned straight toward the camera and began dumping. And at that point, you could see that there were bodies under the straw. And at that point, Jen and I knew that we had to go out there, and we had to get those bodies as evidence that dogs were being killed at this rescue in return for large sums of money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Jenna, what made you and Jennifer decide to risk the consequences of, you know, essentially breaking trespassing and property damage laws to get these dog carcasses?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> We actually didn’t have a conversation about any of the legalities prior. And we didn’t have any intentions of actually bringing the bodies back. We just thought, okay, if they need more evidence, we’ll go in, this is our time, and we’ll microchip scan them, take photos and videos, and then that’ll be enough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But once we actually got down in there and the bodies were still warm, and it just got pretty emotional, we kind of looked at each other and I just said, “We’re not leaving these guys here. I’m taking them home.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, yeah, we got back, and that’s when we had that discussion. And we just said, well, you know what, we’ll take it. If we’re going to have trespassing and stolen property thrown at us, then, you know, it was worth it. So.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Jennifer, Jenna says they need more evidence. Who’s “they”? What were you trying to do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> We were trying to get enough evidence to get the sheriff to go in and get a search warrant and investigate what was going on here. I had been trying to bring down this rescue for years. I filed my first complaint against it in 2006, 20 years before, and we could never get the sheriff to do anything. And so we felt that whatever it took, we needed to get them to go in and take action to stop what was happening, which was the killing of animals.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Physical evidence. Well, Sukey, it sounds like it worked, right? The investigation got launched, and in fact the area was excavated. Tell me what investigators have found.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> So there were two search warrants so far that have been served on the property. One that was shortly after Jenna and Jennifer brought the evidence of these animals to the sheriff. And I want to say one of the really key things about what they uncovered was that the dogs were microchipped, and so they could trace them back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And one of these dogs in particular, named Zora, was traced back to Oakland Animal Services. And their owner of the shelter had said that Shannon Miranda had told him that this dog had been adopted. And so that kind of laid the groundwork for a potential fraud investigation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And also the bullet wounds. I’m sorry, for people who, this is difficult to hear.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It is difficult. In this show, we’ll leave it at that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> But they found that in the animals that they recovered, there were bullet wounds, evidence of the dogs being shot. And so the sheriff began investigating these allegations of potential fraud and also potential animal cruelty.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the first search warrant they did really focused on looking at paperwork and stuff like that. The second search warrant, which was served in late June, was a much bigger operation. And this involved the FBI, the USDA, you know, archaeologists, because they went in and basically began to unearth these mass graves that were at the back of Shannon Miranda’s property, at the back of the rescue, and ultimately pulled, you know, 117 dog remains, carcasses that were intact, a number of microchips, skulls, and began the process of trying to identify where they came from.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s also a financial aspect to this because this is supposed to be a charity, a nonprofit. And so I think they’re investigating, you know, was the money that they were taking in under these auspices as a no-kill shelter appropriately used? And was all the correct reporting going to the IRS and also, you know, the organizations that monitor charities?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> How many dogs have gone through this shelter, generally, in the time frame that it sounds like the authorities are investigating?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> It has grown over time, but in the latest numbers from the sheriff, he said they have reports of about a thousand dogs. Some of those did predate the 2025 time period, predate January 2025. Mostly between January 2025 and spring of 2026, 900 dogs were found to have been transferred there, and they found adoption paperwork for about a hundred of them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There were also a number of dogs that were still alive on the property. And so the sheriff says there’s about 750 dogs that they just do not know what happened to. And so the investigation is trying to pin down where those animals went. Were they adopted? You know, Shannon Miranda, I want to say, has said, like, he is just really bad at paperwork and that many of these dogs were adopted, not killed. But that’s kind of where the numbers stand at this point.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And from where have these animals come from? I understand it’s a very wide range geographically across the state.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> From all over the state. I mean, for Bay Area listeners, Oakland Animal Services sent hundreds of dogs there. One dog, we understand from the sheriff, came all the way from Hawaii. And there have been dogs from Kern County, from Southern California, from, you know, the local — he also had contracts with some of the local towns. So it’s really a range of kind of local dogs and then dogs from all over the state.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And it’s been operating for some 28, 30 years or so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> Yeah, 31 years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. You know, Jenna, this is a story that has gotten national attention. Why do you think that is? Or Jennifer. Let’s see if we can reconnect with Jenna. Jennifer? Sorry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> This is Jenna.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Oh, hi, Jenna.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think that, you know, we have a lot of animal advocates and people who just love animals, and you just never hear of things like this. So I think this is kind of a whole different caliber of what we’re normally used to seeing, and I think it’s just gotten the attention of so many.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, we use dogs for cadavers, our police officers use them, they’re used in many ways that, you know, they’re a part of our lives in some way, shape or form, and I think that this has just touched so many people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> Well, I think it really shatters the mythology of no-kill and save them all. Everybody wants to believe that there is some place where all the excess dogs can go that end up in animal shelters. We don’t want them killed in shelters. And people are horrified to learn that animals were pulled out of shelters at great expense and transported to a place where they ended up being brutally killed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Sukey, to date, though, I understand that no charges have been filed against Miranda’s Rescue or the rescue’s owner, and that he’s denied any wrongdoing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> Yes. No charges have been filed. The Humboldt County Sheriff recently sent a statement in which he said the investigation is very complex, you know, tracing all these animals back, and that they’re not going to be rushed. He has repeatedly kind of urged patience on the part of the public, who have kind of been outraged.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I think it’s important to note, it appears that, you know, in a recent statement, my colleague Zoe Farigno, who has been reporting on this story, she spoke to Shannon Miranda a little over a week ago, and he said there’s still animals coming in for adoption, despite his conditional use permit being suspended. So there are still animals there for adoption, and he’s still at this point operating.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What did sheriff’s officials say? Did you tell them that when you followed up with that information?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> They know.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the sheriff has maintained that he is free to continue operating the rescue.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> No charges have been filed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, we also reached out to Sheriff William Hansel, and he sent a statement to us as well. And he said that Mr. Miranda and his media representatives are free to make whatever public statements they choose and present their version of events as they see fit. And we will be joined later by Shannon Miranda.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And as you say, Sukey, he says that the investigation into Miranda’s Rescue remains very active and continues to be handled with the seriousness it deserves. He writes, “The Humboldt County Sheriff’s Office, however, has remained committed to releasing only factual information that is appropriate to disclose during an active criminal investigation.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Listeners, we’re talking about the ongoing investigation into Miranda’s Rescue in Humboldt County. A sprawling, multi-agency investigation there has revealed mass graves, canine skulls, records for hundreds of dogs that are unaccounted for but were transferred there from municipal shelters and other places.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re talking about it with Sukey Lewis, criminal justice reporter for KQED and host of the \u003cem>On Our Watch\u003c/em> podcast you might be familiar with. Jennifer Raymond is with us, an animal advocate and whistleblower who kicked off the Miranda’s Rescue investigation, along with Jenna Moore, also an animal advocate. And Jennifer is also founder of Humboldt’s Spay Neuter Clinic and Humboldt’s Critters Without Litters.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Listeners, what questions do you have about the investigation? Are you a shelter owner or work at a shelter or a private animal owner? Have you ever interacted with Miranda’s Rescue? What questions do you have about how California regulates and oversees animal shelters and transfers?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can tell us by emailing forum@kqed.org, finding us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, and by calling 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Stay with us. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When animal advocates in Humboldt County unearthed dog carcasses on the property of Miranda’s Rescue, they exposed an alleged cruelty and fraud operation that has shocked animal welfare groups across the state. A sprawling multi-agency investigation has since revealed mass graves, dozens of canine skulls and records for hundreds of unaccounted-for dogs transferred from municipal shelters to a sanctuary that marketed itself as a “no-kill” refuge. We’ll look at the latest findings in the investigation, explore why prior warnings were overlooked and discuss what it will take to reform California’s strained animal rescue system.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. A no-kill shelter in Fortuna called Miranda’s Rescue describes itself as a safe haven for animals, a place to heal and educate. And for years, shelters from across California have sent animals there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. A no-kill shelter in Fortuna called Miranda’s Rescue describes itself as a safe haven for animals, a place to heal and educate. And for years, shelters from across California have sent animals there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, Miranda’s Rescue is under investigation by the Humboldt County Sheriff’s Office, the FBI and other law enforcement agencies, after two county residents, Jennifer Raymond and Jenna Moore, found eight dogs buried in a grave on the property and alerted authorities. To date, no formal charges have been filed against the rescue’s owner.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now, Miranda’s Rescue is under investigation by the Humboldt County Sheriff’s Office, the FBI and other law enforcement agencies, after two county residents, Jennifer Raymond and Jenna Moore, found eight dogs buried in a grave on the property and alerted authorities. To date, no formal charges have been filed against the rescue’s owner.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And this hour, we get the latest on the investigation with KQED criminal justice reporter Sukey Lewis, who joins us now. Hi, Sukey.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> Hi. Good morning.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also with us, the two animal advocates who found the dogs and triggered the investigation. Jennifer Raymond is in studio with me, co-founder of Humboldt’s Spay Neuter Clinic. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, Jennifer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> Thank you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also, Jenna Moore joins us from KRED, a radio station in Eureka. Jenna, glad to have you with us too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Jennifer, I want to start with you. Tell me about that night you found those eight dogs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> Well, we knew that he must be killing dogs, and there was a large pile of dirt and a big hole on the property. We had put up trail cams to watch, and on a Sunday afternoon, a bright and sunny afternoon, we saw him come out on his tractor with the bucket with straw in it, meaning the owner of the rescue, Shannon Miranda. And he turned straight toward the camera and began dumping. And at that point, you could see that there were bodies under the straw. And at that point, Jen and I knew that we had to go out there, and we had to get those bodies as evidence that dogs were being killed at this rescue in return for large sums of money.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> Well, we knew that he must be killing dogs, and there was a large pile of dirt and a big hole on the property. We had put up trail cams to watch, and on a Sunday afternoon, a bright and sunny afternoon, we saw him come out on his tractor with the bucket with straw in it, meaning the owner of the rescue, Shannon Miranda. And he turned straight toward the camera and began dumping. And at that point, you could see that there were bodies under the straw. And at that point, Jen and I knew that we had to go out there, and we had to get those bodies as evidence that dogs were being killed at this rescue in return for large sums of money.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Jenna, what made you and Jennifer decide to risk the consequences of, you know, essentially breaking trespassing and property damage laws to get these dog carcasses?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> We actually didn’t have a conversation about any of the legalities prior. And we didn’t have any intentions of actually bringing the bodies back. We just thought, okay, if they need more evidence, we’ll go in, this is our time, and we’ll microchip scan them, take photos and videos, and then that’ll be enough.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But once we actually got down in there and the bodies were still warm, and it just got pretty emotional, we kind of looked at each other and I just said, “We’re not leaving these guys here. I’m taking them home.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so, yeah, we got back, and that’s when we had that discussion. And we just said, well, you know what, we’ll take it. If we’re going to have trespassing and stolen property thrown at us, then, you know, it was worth it. So.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Jennifer, Jenna says they need more evidence. Who’s “they”? What were you trying to do?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> We were trying to get enough evidence to get the sheriff to go in and get a search warrant and investigate what was going on here. I had been trying to bring down this rescue for years. I filed my first complaint against it in 2006, 20 years before, and we could never get the sheriff to do anything. And so we felt that whatever it took, we needed to get them to go in and take action to stop what was happening, which was the killing of animals.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> We were trying to get enough evidence to get the sheriff to go in and get a search warrant and investigate what was going on here. I had been trying to bring down this rescue for years. I filed my first complaint against it in 2006, 20 years before, and we could never get the sheriff to do anything. And so we felt that whatever it took, we needed to get them to go in and take action to stop what was happening, which was the killing of animals.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Physical evidence. Well, Sukey, it sounds like it worked, right? The investigation got launched, and in fact the area was excavated. Tell me what investigators have found.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Physical evidence. Well, Sukey, it sounds like it worked, right? The investigation got launched, and in fact the area was excavated. Tell me what investigators have found.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> So there were two search warrants so far that have been served on the property. One that was shortly after Jenna and Jennifer brought the evidence of these animals to the sheriff. And I want to say one of the really key things about what they uncovered was that the dogs were microchipped, and so they could trace them back.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> So there were two search warrants so far that have been served on the property. One that was shortly after Jenna and Jennifer brought the evidence of these animals to the sheriff. And I want to say one of the really key things about what they uncovered was that the dogs were microchipped, and so they could trace them back.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And one of these dogs in particular, named Zora, was traced back to Oakland Animal Services. And their owner of the shelter had said that Shannon Miranda had told him that this dog had been adopted. And so that kind of laid the groundwork for a potential fraud investigation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And one of these dogs in particular, named Zora, was traced back to Oakland Animal Services. And their owner of the shelter had said that Shannon Miranda had told him that this dog had been adopted. And so that kind of laid the groundwork for a potential fraud investigation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And also the bullet wounds. I’m sorry, for people who, this is difficult to hear.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And also the bullet wounds. I’m sorry, for people who, this is difficult to hear.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It is difficult. In this show, we’ll leave it at that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It is difficult. In this show, we’ll leave it at that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> But they found that in the animals that they recovered, there were bullet wounds, evidence of the dogs being shot. And so the sheriff began investigating these allegations of potential fraud and also potential animal cruelty.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> But they found that in the animals that they recovered, there were bullet wounds, evidence of the dogs being shot. And so the sheriff began investigating these allegations of potential fraud and also potential animal cruelty.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the first search warrant they did really focused on looking at paperwork and stuff like that. The second search warrant, which was served in late June, was a much bigger operation. And this involved the FBI, the USDA, you know, archaeologists, because they went in and basically began to unearth these mass graves that were at the back of Shannon Miranda’s property, at the back of the rescue, and ultimately pulled, you know, 117 dog remains, carcasses that were intact, a number of microchips, skulls, and began the process of trying to identify where they came from.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the first search warrant they did really focused on looking at paperwork and stuff like that. The second search warrant, which was served in late June, was a much bigger operation. And this involved the FBI, the USDA, you know, archaeologists, because they went in and basically began to unearth these mass graves that were at the back of Shannon Miranda’s property, at the back of the rescue, and ultimately pulled, you know, 117 dog remains, carcasses that were intact, a number of microchips, skulls, and began the process of trying to identify where they came from.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There’s also a financial aspect to this because this is supposed to be a charity, a nonprofit. And so I think they’re investigating, you know, was the money that they were taking in under these auspices as a no-kill shelter appropriately used? And was all the correct reporting going to the IRS and also, you know, the organizations that monitor charities?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There’s also a financial aspect to this because this is supposed to be a charity, a nonprofit. And so I think they’re investigating, you know, was the money that they were taking in under these auspices as a no-kill shelter appropriately used? And was all the correct reporting going to the IRS and also, you know, the organizations that monitor charities?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> How many dogs have gone through this shelter, generally, in the time frame that it sounds like the authorities are investigating?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> How many dogs have gone through this shelter, generally, in the time frame that it sounds like the authorities are investigating?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> It has grown over time, but in the latest numbers from the sheriff, he said they have reports of about a thousand dogs. Some of those did predate the 2025 time period, predate January 2025. Mostly between January 2025 and spring of 2026, 900 dogs were found to have been transferred there, and they found adoption paperwork for about a hundred of them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> It has grown over time, but in the latest numbers from the sheriff, he said they have reports of about a thousand dogs. Some of those did predate the 2025 time period, predate January 2025. Mostly between January 2025 and spring of 2026, 900 dogs were found to have been transferred there, and they found adoption paperwork for about a hundred of them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There were also a number of dogs that were still alive on the property. And so the sheriff says there’s about 750 dogs that they just do not know what happened to. And so the investigation is trying to pin down where those animals went. Were they adopted? You know, Shannon Miranda, I want to say, has said, like, he is just really bad at paperwork and that many of these dogs were adopted, not killed. But that’s kind of where the numbers stand at this point.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There were also a number of dogs that were still alive on the property. And so the sheriff says there’s about 750 dogs that they just do not know what happened to. And so the investigation is trying to pin down where those animals went. Were they adopted? You know, Shannon Miranda, I want to say, has said, like, he is just really bad at paperwork and that many of these dogs were adopted, not killed. But that’s kind of where the numbers stand at this point.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And from where have these animals come from? I understand it’s a very wide range geographically across the state.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And from where have these animals come from? I understand it’s a very wide range geographically across the state.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> From all over the state. I mean, for Bay Area listeners, Oakland Animal Services sent hundreds of dogs there. One dog, we understand from the sheriff, came all the way from Hawaii. And there have been dogs from Kern County, from Southern California, from, you know, the local — he also had contracts with some of the local towns. So it’s really a range of kind of local dogs and then dogs from all over the state.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> From all over the state. I mean, for Bay Area listeners, Oakland Animal Services sent hundreds of dogs there. One dog, we understand from the sheriff, came all the way from Hawaii. And there have been dogs from Kern County, from Southern California, from, you know, the local — he also had contracts with some of the local towns. So it’s really a range of kind of local dogs and then dogs from all over the state.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And it’s been operating for some 28, 30 years or so.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And it’s been operating for some 28, 30 years or so.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> Yeah, 31 years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> Yeah, 31 years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. You know, Jenna, this is a story that has gotten national attention. Why do you think that is? Or Jennifer. Let’s see if we can reconnect with Jenna. Jennifer? Sorry.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. You know, Jenna, this is a story that has gotten national attention. Why do you think that is? Or Jennifer. Let’s see if we can reconnect with Jenna. Jennifer? Sorry.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> This is Jenna.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> This is Jenna.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Oh, hi, Jenna.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Oh, hi, Jenna.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think that, you know, we have a lot of animal advocates and people who just love animals, and you just never hear of things like this. So I think this is kind of a whole different caliber of what we’re normally used to seeing, and I think it’s just gotten the attention of so many.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think that, you know, we have a lot of animal advocates and people who just love animals, and you just never hear of things like this. So I think this is kind of a whole different caliber of what we’re normally used to seeing, and I think it’s just gotten the attention of so many.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, we use dogs for cadavers, our police officers use them, they’re used in many ways that, you know, they’re a part of our lives in some way, shape or form, and I think that this has just touched so many people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, we use dogs for cadavers, our police officers use them, they’re used in many ways that, you know, they’re a part of our lives in some way, shape or form, and I think that this has just touched so many people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> Well, I think it really shatters the mythology of no-kill and save them all. Everybody wants to believe that there is some place where all the excess dogs can go that end up in animal shelters. We don’t want them killed in shelters. And people are horrified to learn that animals were pulled out of shelters at great expense and transported to a place where they ended up being brutally killed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> Well, I think it really shatters the mythology of no-kill and save them all. Everybody wants to believe that there is some place where all the excess dogs can go that end up in animal shelters. We don’t want them killed in shelters. And people are horrified to learn that animals were pulled out of shelters at great expense and transported to a place where they ended up being brutally killed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Sukey, to date, though, I understand that no charges have been filed against Miranda’s Rescue or the rescue’s owner, and that he’s denied any wrongdoing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Sukey, to date, though, I understand that no charges have been filed against Miranda’s Rescue or the rescue’s owner, and that he’s denied any wrongdoing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> Yes. No charges have been filed. The Humboldt County Sheriff recently sent a statement in which he said the investigation is very complex, you know, tracing all these animals back, and that they’re not going to be rushed. He has repeatedly kind of urged patience on the part of the public, who have kind of been outraged.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> Yes. No charges have been filed. The Humboldt County Sheriff recently sent a statement in which he said the investigation is very complex, you know, tracing all these animals back, and that they’re not going to be rushed. He has repeatedly kind of urged patience on the part of the public, who have kind of been outraged.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I think it’s important to note, it appears that, you know, in a recent statement, my colleague Zoe Farigno, who has been reporting on this story, she spoke to Shannon Miranda a little over a week ago, and he said there’s still animals coming in for adoption, despite his conditional use permit being suspended. So there are still animals there for adoption, and he’s still at this point operating.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I think it’s important to note, it appears that, you know, in a recent statement, my colleague Zoe Farigno, who has been reporting on this story, she spoke to Shannon Miranda a little over a week ago, and he said there’s still animals coming in for adoption, despite his conditional use permit being suspended. So there are still animals there for adoption, and he’s still at this point operating.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What did sheriff’s officials say? Did you tell them that when you followed up with that information?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What did sheriff’s officials say? Did you tell them that when you followed up with that information?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> They know.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> They know.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the sheriff has maintained that he is free to continue operating the rescue.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the sheriff has maintained that he is free to continue operating the rescue.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> No charges have been filed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, we also reached out to Sheriff William Hansel, and he sent a statement to us as well. And he said that Mr. Miranda and his media representatives are free to make whatever public statements they choose and present their version of events as they see fit. And we will be joined later by Shannon Miranda.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, we also reached out to Sheriff William Hansel, and he sent a statement to us as well. And he said that Mr. Miranda and his media representatives are free to make whatever public statements they choose and present their version of events as they see fit. And we will be joined later by Shannon Miranda.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And as you say, Sukey, he says that the investigation into Miranda’s Rescue remains very active and continues to be handled with the seriousness it deserves. He writes, “The Humboldt County Sheriff’s Office, however, has remained committed to releasing only factual information that is appropriate to disclose during an active criminal investigation.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And as you say, Sukey, he says that the investigation into Miranda’s Rescue remains very active and continues to be handled with the seriousness it deserves. He writes, “The Humboldt County Sheriff’s Office, however, has remained committed to releasing only factual information that is appropriate to disclose during an active criminal investigation.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Listeners, we’re talking about the ongoing investigation into Miranda’s Rescue in Humboldt County. A sprawling, multi-agency investigation there has revealed mass graves, canine skulls, records for hundreds of dogs that are unaccounted for but were transferred there from municipal shelters and other places.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Listeners, we’re talking about the ongoing investigation into Miranda’s Rescue in Humboldt County. A sprawling, multi-agency investigation there has revealed mass graves, canine skulls, records for hundreds of dogs that are unaccounted for but were transferred there from municipal shelters and other places.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’re talking about it with Sukey Lewis, criminal justice reporter for KQED and host of the \u003cem>On Our Watch\u003c/em> podcast you might be familiar with. Jennifer Raymond is with us, an animal advocate and whistleblower who kicked off the Miranda’s Rescue investigation, along with Jenna Moore, also an animal advocate. And Jennifer is also founder of Humboldt’s Spay Neuter Clinic and Humboldt’s Critters Without Litters.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We’re talking about it with Sukey Lewis, criminal justice reporter for KQED and host of the \u003cem>On Our Watch\u003c/em> podcast you might be familiar with. Jennifer Raymond is with us, an animal advocate and whistleblower who kicked off the Miranda’s Rescue investigation, along with Jenna Moore, also an animal advocate. And Jennifer is also founder of Humboldt’s Spay Neuter Clinic and Humboldt’s Critters Without Litters.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Listeners, what questions do you have about the investigation? Are you a shelter owner or work at a shelter or a private animal owner? Have you ever interacted with Miranda’s Rescue? What questions do you have about how California regulates and oversees animal shelters and transfers?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Listeners, what questions do you have about the investigation? Are you a shelter owner or work at a shelter or a private animal owner? Have you ever interacted with Miranda’s Rescue? What questions do you have about how California regulates and oversees animal shelters and transfers?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You can tell us by emailing forum@kqed.org, finding us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, and by calling 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You can tell us by emailing forum@kqed.org, finding us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, and by calling 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Stay with us. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Monday, September 21, 2026 at 10 am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When animal advocates in Humboldt County unearthed dog carcasses on the property of Miranda’s Rescue, they exposed an alleged cruelty and fraud operation that has shocked animal welfare groups across the state. A sprawling multi-agency investigation has since revealed mass graves, dozens of canine skulls and records for hundreds of unaccounted-for dogs transferred from municipal shelters to a sanctuary that marketed itself as a “no-kill” refuge. We’ll look at the latest findings in the investigation, explore why prior warnings were overlooked and discuss what it will take to reform California’s strained animal rescue system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis,\u003c/strong> criminal justice reporter, KQED; host and reporter; “On Our Watch”; co-founder, the California Reporting Project\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond, \u003c/strong>founder of Humboldt Spay/Neuter Clinic; founder of Humboldt Critters without Litters\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore,\u003c/strong> animal advocate; whistleblower who kicked off the Miranda’s Rescue investigation\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Shannon Miranda,\u003c/strong> owner, Miranda’s Rescue\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. A no-kill shelter in Fortuna called Miranda’s Rescue describes itself as a safe haven for animals, a place to heal and educate. And for years, shelters from across California have sent animals there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, Miranda’s Rescue is under investigation by the Humboldt County Sheriff’s Office, the FBI and other law enforcement agencies, after two county residents, Jennifer Raymond and Jenna Moore, found eight dogs buried in a grave on the property and alerted authorities. To date, no formal charges have been filed against the rescue’s owner.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And this hour, we get the latest on the investigation with KQED criminal justice reporter Sukey Lewis, who joins us now. Hi, Sukey.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> Hi. Good morning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also with us, the two animal advocates who found the dogs and triggered the investigation. Jennifer Raymond is in studio with me, co-founder of Humboldt’s Spay Neuter Clinic. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, Jennifer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> Thank you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also, Jenna Moore joins us from KRED, a radio station in Eureka. Jenna, glad to have you with us too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> Yes, thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Jennifer, I want to start with you. Tell me about that night you found those eight dogs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> Well, we knew that he must be killing dogs, and there was a large pile of dirt and a big hole on the property. We had put up trail cams to watch, and on a Sunday afternoon, a bright and sunny afternoon, we saw him come out on his tractor with the bucket with straw in it, meaning the owner of the rescue, Shannon Miranda. And he turned straight toward the camera and began dumping. And at that point, you could see that there were bodies under the straw. And at that point, Jen and I knew that we had to go out there, and we had to get those bodies as evidence that dogs were being killed at this rescue in return for large sums of money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Jenna, what made you and Jennifer decide to risk the consequences of, you know, essentially breaking trespassing and property damage laws to get these dog carcasses?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> We actually didn’t have a conversation about any of the legalities prior. And we didn’t have any intentions of actually bringing the bodies back. We just thought, okay, if they need more evidence, we’ll go in, this is our time, and we’ll microchip scan them, take photos and videos, and then that’ll be enough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But once we actually got down in there and the bodies were still warm, and it just got pretty emotional, we kind of looked at each other and I just said, “We’re not leaving these guys here. I’m taking them home.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, yeah, we got back, and that’s when we had that discussion. And we just said, well, you know what, we’ll take it. If we’re going to have trespassing and stolen property thrown at us, then, you know, it was worth it. So.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Jennifer, Jenna says they need more evidence. Who’s “they”? What were you trying to do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> We were trying to get enough evidence to get the sheriff to go in and get a search warrant and investigate what was going on here. I had been trying to bring down this rescue for years. I filed my first complaint against it in 2006, 20 years before, and we could never get the sheriff to do anything. And so we felt that whatever it took, we needed to get them to go in and take action to stop what was happening, which was the killing of animals.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Physical evidence. Well, Sukey, it sounds like it worked, right? The investigation got launched, and in fact the area was excavated. Tell me what investigators have found.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> So there were two search warrants so far that have been served on the property. One that was shortly after Jenna and Jennifer brought the evidence of these animals to the sheriff. And I want to say one of the really key things about what they uncovered was that the dogs were microchipped, and so they could trace them back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And one of these dogs in particular, named Zora, was traced back to Oakland Animal Services. And their owner of the shelter had said that Shannon Miranda had told him that this dog had been adopted. And so that kind of laid the groundwork for a potential fraud investigation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And also the bullet wounds. I’m sorry, for people who, this is difficult to hear.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It is difficult. In this show, we’ll leave it at that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> But they found that in the animals that they recovered, there were bullet wounds, evidence of the dogs being shot. And so the sheriff began investigating these allegations of potential fraud and also potential animal cruelty.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the first search warrant they did really focused on looking at paperwork and stuff like that. The second search warrant, which was served in late June, was a much bigger operation. And this involved the FBI, the USDA, you know, archaeologists, because they went in and basically began to unearth these mass graves that were at the back of Shannon Miranda’s property, at the back of the rescue, and ultimately pulled, you know, 117 dog remains, carcasses that were intact, a number of microchips, skulls, and began the process of trying to identify where they came from.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s also a financial aspect to this because this is supposed to be a charity, a nonprofit. And so I think they’re investigating, you know, was the money that they were taking in under these auspices as a no-kill shelter appropriately used? And was all the correct reporting going to the IRS and also, you know, the organizations that monitor charities?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> How many dogs have gone through this shelter, generally, in the time frame that it sounds like the authorities are investigating?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> It has grown over time, but in the latest numbers from the sheriff, he said they have reports of about a thousand dogs. Some of those did predate the 2025 time period, predate January 2025. Mostly between January 2025 and spring of 2026, 900 dogs were found to have been transferred there, and they found adoption paperwork for about a hundred of them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There were also a number of dogs that were still alive on the property. And so the sheriff says there’s about 750 dogs that they just do not know what happened to. And so the investigation is trying to pin down where those animals went. Were they adopted? You know, Shannon Miranda, I want to say, has said, like, he is just really bad at paperwork and that many of these dogs were adopted, not killed. But that’s kind of where the numbers stand at this point.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And from where have these animals come from? I understand it’s a very wide range geographically across the state.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> From all over the state. I mean, for Bay Area listeners, Oakland Animal Services sent hundreds of dogs there. One dog, we understand from the sheriff, came all the way from Hawaii. And there have been dogs from Kern County, from Southern California, from, you know, the local — he also had contracts with some of the local towns. So it’s really a range of kind of local dogs and then dogs from all over the state.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And it’s been operating for some 28, 30 years or so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> Yeah, 31 years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. You know, Jenna, this is a story that has gotten national attention. Why do you think that is? Or Jennifer. Let’s see if we can reconnect with Jenna. Jennifer? Sorry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> This is Jenna.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Oh, hi, Jenna.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think that, you know, we have a lot of animal advocates and people who just love animals, and you just never hear of things like this. So I think this is kind of a whole different caliber of what we’re normally used to seeing, and I think it’s just gotten the attention of so many.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, we use dogs for cadavers, our police officers use them, they’re used in many ways that, you know, they’re a part of our lives in some way, shape or form, and I think that this has just touched so many people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> Well, I think it really shatters the mythology of no-kill and save them all. Everybody wants to believe that there is some place where all the excess dogs can go that end up in animal shelters. We don’t want them killed in shelters. And people are horrified to learn that animals were pulled out of shelters at great expense and transported to a place where they ended up being brutally killed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Sukey, to date, though, I understand that no charges have been filed against Miranda’s Rescue or the rescue’s owner, and that he’s denied any wrongdoing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> Yes. No charges have been filed. The Humboldt County Sheriff recently sent a statement in which he said the investigation is very complex, you know, tracing all these animals back, and that they’re not going to be rushed. He has repeatedly kind of urged patience on the part of the public, who have kind of been outraged.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I think it’s important to note, it appears that, you know, in a recent statement, my colleague Zoe Farigno, who has been reporting on this story, she spoke to Shannon Miranda a little over a week ago, and he said there’s still animals coming in for adoption, despite his conditional use permit being suspended. So there are still animals there for adoption, and he’s still at this point operating.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What did sheriff’s officials say? Did you tell them that when you followed up with that information?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> They know.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the sheriff has maintained that he is free to continue operating the rescue.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> No charges have been filed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, we also reached out to Sheriff William Hansel, and he sent a statement to us as well. And he said that Mr. Miranda and his media representatives are free to make whatever public statements they choose and present their version of events as they see fit. And we will be joined later by Shannon Miranda.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And as you say, Sukey, he says that the investigation into Miranda’s Rescue remains very active and continues to be handled with the seriousness it deserves. He writes, “The Humboldt County Sheriff’s Office, however, has remained committed to releasing only factual information that is appropriate to disclose during an active criminal investigation.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Listeners, we’re talking about the ongoing investigation into Miranda’s Rescue in Humboldt County. A sprawling, multi-agency investigation there has revealed mass graves, canine skulls, records for hundreds of dogs that are unaccounted for but were transferred there from municipal shelters and other places.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re talking about it with Sukey Lewis, criminal justice reporter for KQED and host of the \u003cem>On Our Watch\u003c/em> podcast you might be familiar with. Jennifer Raymond is with us, an animal advocate and whistleblower who kicked off the Miranda’s Rescue investigation, along with Jenna Moore, also an animal advocate. And Jennifer is also founder of Humboldt’s Spay Neuter Clinic and Humboldt’s Critters Without Litters.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Listeners, what questions do you have about the investigation? Are you a shelter owner or work at a shelter or a private animal owner? Have you ever interacted with Miranda’s Rescue? What questions do you have about how California regulates and oversees animal shelters and transfers?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can tell us by emailing forum@kqed.org, finding us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, and by calling 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Stay with us. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Airdate: Monday, Sept 14 at 10 AM\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In 1991, China scholar and journalist Orville Schell teamed up with CBS News’ 60 Minutes for a perilous undercover investigation into China’s \u003cem>laogai\u003c/em>—a vast network of forced labor camps secretly exporting goods into American markets. Fearing severe retaliation against his family and friends in China, Schell shelved his written account for three decades. In his new book, “Inside China’s Secret Prisons: An Undercover Exposé and Its Lasting Legacy,” Schell reveals how that clandestine operation played out and shares why forced labor persists in China today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell,\u003c/strong> director of the Center on US-China Relations at the Asia Society and author of the new book “Inside China’s Secret Prisons: An Undercover Exposé and Its Lasting Legacy”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Orville Schell has been a leading scholar on China for more than 50 years, visiting the nation since the 1970s. He’s Asia Society’s Director of the Center on U.S.-China Relations and former Dean of UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism. In 1991, Schell helped CBS’s 60 Minutes conduct an exposé into China’s forced labor camps, where prisoners were making products that were being secretly exported to American markets. But he shelved the written account he’d promised then to The New Yorker until now. Schell’s new book, called \u003cem>Inside China’s Secret Prisons\u003c/em>, recounts the making of the 60 Minutes episode and how forced labor, despite its illegality, still supplies U.S. and other global markets today. Orville Schell joins me now. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Pleasure. So, Orville, help me understand, first of all, just the origins and theory behind the state-imposed forced labor system in China.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, you know, when China became the People’s Republic of China in 1949, after Mao Zedong defeated Chiang Kai-shek and he fled to Taiwan, they adopted sort of wholesale the Soviet system of government. You know, all of the relationship between the party and the state, all the structures were just adopted wholesale. And part of that, of course, was Russia’s system of penal institutions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But interestingly, China added a dimension to what Russians had long used in Siberia, which is namely just imprison people and you make them work and it’s punishment. But Mao Zedong had a kind of a new element he threw into the pot, and that was that, trying to follow the dictum of Stalin that part of socialist revolution was to re-engineer the human soul, he thought, okay, it’s not just enough to put people in prison. We need to add another element, and that was thought reform. What we have referred to in this country often as brainwashing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the idea was that if you could help people understand their political incorrectness, you know, the incorrectness of their thinking, that was as crucial as to make them pay, you know, penance for their so-called political crimes. So they added that element. So, reformed through labor camps meant that you got reformed by working for the state at no pay or extremely low pay in rare cases, but you also had to reform yourself politically and also, although Mao never wrote about this, psychologically.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So then, if it was about thought reform, the people that were there were there because they were political prisoners, essentially, because they said and, quote unquote, thought things that were wrong according to the government.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Yes, there’s this sort of wonderfully quaint term in Chinese, incorrect thought. And that thought needs to be, quote, rectified. And it can be rectified if the party compels people while in prison or even out of prison to go to all these struggle sessions and study meetings.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I went to a bunch of these when I was first in China, when Mao was still alive and the Cultural Revolution was still going on. I mean, these head-bangingly boring meetings where you had to read some document. You had to deliver self-criticisms about your own thinking and even confessions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And these were sort of exercises that really did undermine, I think, people’s belief in themselves. Because if, in fact, there’s a punishment and you’re in prison, shouldn’t there logically also be a crime? So then people start searching within themselves, all right, what did I do wrong? How can I get out of this bind? So it was a very crippling exercise that Mao Zedong sort of inadvertently tripped upon and threw into the whole question of incarceration for political purposes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, so these places were not just physically savage, but also sort of mentally savage as well. And then in the, I guess, early 1990s or late — was it 1991 when David Gelber approached you, a 60 Minutes producer calls you up and says he wants to document these places. Tell me what your reaction was to that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, I didn’t know this guy, David Gelber, who was a producer for Ed Bradley at 60 Minutes, and I just thought he was bereft of his senses. I mean, you know, you want to get into Chinese prisons with a giant camera and a big TV crew and a sound man with a fishnet vest and the whole nine yards. There wasn’t a snowball’s chance in hell that that could happen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So how did he convince you, then, to get in?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, he kept at it. And I thought this is interesting, but I really couldn’t see how to do it. It was a rather terrifying prospect, too, to think of trying to penetrate this prison system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But then it suddenly occurred to me that I’d met someone who was at Stanford at the Hoover Institution, who’d spent 19 years in the camps and was documenting that as his project at Stanford. So I called him up, and his first reaction was, “I don’t want anything to do with this. The people I know, I would never introduce you to. There’s no hope of anything.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But we kept up the conversation. And then one day, he kind of got a strange look in his eye. This was Wu Hongda, or Harry Wu. And he said, “You know what?” He said, “If anybody goes back to China to do this, I should do it. Because I know what I’m doing. I know where the camps are, I know people who are in the camps, living outside of them now because they have no homes or no family to go back to and working in the prison factories. I could go back and possibly get some video.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Why was Harry Wu imprisoned in these camps in the first place?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> You know, he never really knew why, and this is one of the ways that I think this whole protocol of imprisonment and ideological reform is so powerful, is that very often you will ask the Chinese Communist Party or the cadres, whatever, if you’re being interrogated, detained, imprisoned, whatever. You’ll say, well, what was the fault? What was the crime? And they say, “You know what you did.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And of course that triggers everybody to think of a thousand reasons why they might have run off the rails somehow. So it was during, I think, the Hungarian uprising in 1956 that he did speak out. He thinks that was the reason, and thus he was locked up as a rightist.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Locked up for 19 years and yet willing to go back. What was he risking by doing this investigation, undercover investigation, with you and 60 Minutes?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, I asked myself that very question. I wondered, what motivates this person? As I got to know him, I began to realize that one of the things that probably gave him both the fortitude and the reason to risk going back to the very camps he’d been in, which he could end up in again, was that he was a Catholic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He was raised in a very wealthy Shanghai banking family. And he went to Jesuit schools, and his father was also deeply religious. And he often said to me that his faith was what sustained him in the camps.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And as we got to know each other and worked very closely together for almost a year, he often felt he owed it to them. And I said, who’s them? And he said, all the other people who were in the camp, and there were millions of them, who cannot speak out. Many are dead, many are damaged, but many are incapable of being able to say anything about what happened to themselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with China scholar and journalist Orville Schell about his 60 Minutes investigation to infiltrate China’s forced labor camps in 1991, and he’s written a book about it called \u003cem>Inside China’s Secret Prisons: An Undercover Exposé and Its Lasting Legacy\u003c/em>. We will talk about its lasting legacy today, but listeners, you’re invited to join the conversation. If you know anything about China’s forced labor detention system or want to ask Orville about it, you can email \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> at kqed.org. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram. We’re at KQED Forum. Or you can call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And let me remind listeners, you are listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. He did understand the stakes, though. I do understand that he insisted on recording on camera sort of a last will and testament. Horrible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, before we actually went to China, and he began trying to penetrate these old camps with a camera bag that had a peephole and a hidden Sony cam inside the camera bag peeking out, he of course got very, very concerned about — you know, he realized he was going back into the dragon’s lair and he wasn’t sure what would happen, and I was going to go back with him, be sort of backup should anything happen, provide him with video cassettes, take the cassettes that he might succeed in shooting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so he did go back, and it was pretty extraordinary what he succeeded in doing. And the great tragedy was he got out with all these tapes, and all of the 60 Minutes crew from New York came out to Berkeley. And we got a big suite in the Fairmont. We started putting these cassettes into the video player, all excited and thinking we had the cat in the bag.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And one after the other. I mean, the video on it was pictures of the sky, pictures of his feet, he’s running, you know, “We have to get out of here.” There wasn’t one 10-second sequence in all of the hours he had shot that was suitable for commercial American television.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow, you write about the Velcro flap, you know, the bag being over the — I mean, it is just heartbreaking to listen to. And yet, ultimately, you know, this does happen. He does go back to try to make all this happen again, shoot it again, risk his life and his freedom again. And this does ultimately air on 60 Minutes in 1991.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And after the break we’ll get into that saga more and more. But, you know, it is pretty incredible that this aired back then, and what I really want to get into is why, even though this aired in 1991, you didn’t want to publish your written account.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ll have more with Orville Schell right after the break. His book about China’s secret prisons and undercover exposé and its lasting legacy about a perilous attempt to investigate the forced labor camps for 60 Minutes and what made Orville write a written account of it, release a written account of it now. Stay with us. You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Orville Schell has been a leading scholar on China for more than 50 years, visiting the nation since the 1970s. He’s Asia Society’s Director of the Center on U.S.-China Relations and former Dean of UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism. In 1991, Schell helped CBS’s 60 Minutes conduct an exposé into China’s forced labor camps, where prisoners were making products that were being secretly exported to American markets. But he shelved the written account he’d promised then to The New Yorker until now. Schell’s new book, called \u003cem>Inside China’s Secret Prisons\u003c/em>, recounts the making of the 60 Minutes episode and how forced labor, despite its illegality, still supplies U.S. and other global markets today. Orville Schell joins me now. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Orville Schell has been a leading scholar on China for more than 50 years, visiting the nation since the 1970s. He’s Asia Society’s Director of the Center on U.S.-China Relations and former Dean of UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism. In 1991, Schell helped CBS’s 60 Minutes conduct an exposé into China’s forced labor camps, where prisoners were making products that were being secretly exported to American markets. But he shelved the written account he’d promised then to The New Yorker until now. Schell’s new book, called \u003cem>Inside China’s Secret Prisons\u003c/em>, recounts the making of the 60 Minutes episode and how forced labor, despite its illegality, still supplies U.S. and other global markets today. Orville Schell joins me now. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Pleasure. So, Orville, help me understand, first of all, just the origins and theory behind the state-imposed forced labor system in China.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, you know, when China became the People’s Republic of China in 1949, after Mao Zedong defeated Chiang Kai-shek and he fled to Taiwan, they adopted sort of wholesale the Soviet system of government. You know, all of the relationship between the party and the state, all the structures were just adopted wholesale. And part of that, of course, was Russia’s system of penal institutions.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, you know, when China became the People’s Republic of China in 1949, after Mao Zedong defeated Chiang Kai-shek and he fled to Taiwan, they adopted sort of wholesale the Soviet system of government. You know, all of the relationship between the party and the state, all the structures were just adopted wholesale. And part of that, of course, was Russia’s system of penal institutions.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But interestingly, China added a dimension to what Russians had long used in Siberia, which is namely just imprison people and you make them work and it’s punishment. But Mao Zedong had a kind of a new element he threw into the pot, and that was that, trying to follow the dictum of Stalin that part of socialist revolution was to re-engineer the human soul, he thought, okay, it’s not just enough to put people in prison. We need to add another element, and that was thought reform. What we have referred to in this country often as brainwashing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But interestingly, China added a dimension to what Russians had long used in Siberia, which is namely just imprison people and you make them work and it’s punishment. But Mao Zedong had a kind of a new element he threw into the pot, and that was that, trying to follow the dictum of Stalin that part of socialist revolution was to re-engineer the human soul, he thought, okay, it’s not just enough to put people in prison. We need to add another element, and that was thought reform. What we have referred to in this country often as brainwashing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So the idea was that if you could help people understand their political incorrectness, you know, the incorrectness of their thinking, that was as crucial as to make them pay, you know, penance for their so-called political crimes. So they added that element. So, reformed through labor camps meant that you got reformed by working for the state at no pay or extremely low pay in rare cases, but you also had to reform yourself politically and also, although Mao never wrote about this, psychologically.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So the idea was that if you could help people understand their political incorrectness, you know, the incorrectness of their thinking, that was as crucial as to make them pay, you know, penance for their so-called political crimes. So they added that element. So, reformed through labor camps meant that you got reformed by working for the state at no pay or extremely low pay in rare cases, but you also had to reform yourself politically and also, although Mao never wrote about this, psychologically.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So then, if it was about thought reform, the people that were there were there because they were political prisoners, essentially, because they said and, quote unquote, thought things that were wrong according to the government.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Yes, there’s this sort of wonderfully quaint term in Chinese, incorrect thought. And that thought needs to be, quote, rectified. And it can be rectified if the party compels people while in prison or even out of prison to go to all these struggle sessions and study meetings.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I went to a bunch of these when I was first in China, when Mao was still alive and the Cultural Revolution was still going on. I mean, these head-bangingly boring meetings where you had to read some document. You had to deliver self-criticisms about your own thinking and even confessions.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And these were sort of exercises that really did undermine, I think, people’s belief in themselves. Because if, in fact, there’s a punishment and you’re in prison, shouldn’t there logically also be a crime? So then people start searching within themselves, all right, what did I do wrong? How can I get out of this bind? So it was a very crippling exercise that Mao Zedong sort of inadvertently tripped upon and threw into the whole question of incarceration for political purposes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And these were sort of exercises that really did undermine, I think, people’s belief in themselves. Because if, in fact, there’s a punishment and you’re in prison, shouldn’t there logically also be a crime? So then people start searching within themselves, all right, what did I do wrong? How can I get out of this bind? So it was a very crippling exercise that Mao Zedong sort of inadvertently tripped upon and threw into the whole question of incarceration for political purposes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, so these places were not just physically savage, but also sort of mentally savage as well. And then in the, I guess, early 1990s or late — was it 1991 when David Gelber approached you, a 60 Minutes producer calls you up and says he wants to document these places. Tell me what your reaction was to that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, I didn’t know this guy, David Gelber, who was a producer for Ed Bradley at 60 Minutes, and I just thought he was bereft of his senses. I mean, you know, you want to get into Chinese prisons with a giant camera and a big TV crew and a sound man with a fishnet vest and the whole nine yards. There wasn’t a snowball’s chance in hell that that could happen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, I didn’t know this guy, David Gelber, who was a producer for Ed Bradley at 60 Minutes, and I just thought he was bereft of his senses. I mean, you know, you want to get into Chinese prisons with a giant camera and a big TV crew and a sound man with a fishnet vest and the whole nine yards. There wasn’t a snowball’s chance in hell that that could happen.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So how did he convince you, then, to get in?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, he kept at it. And I thought this is interesting, but I really couldn’t see how to do it. It was a rather terrifying prospect, too, to think of trying to penetrate this prison system.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, he kept at it. And I thought this is interesting, but I really couldn’t see how to do it. It was a rather terrifying prospect, too, to think of trying to penetrate this prison system.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But then it suddenly occurred to me that I’d met someone who was at Stanford at the Hoover Institution, who’d spent 19 years in the camps and was documenting that as his project at Stanford. So I called him up, and his first reaction was, “I don’t want anything to do with this. The people I know, I would never introduce you to. There’s no hope of anything.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But then it suddenly occurred to me that I’d met someone who was at Stanford at the Hoover Institution, who’d spent 19 years in the camps and was documenting that as his project at Stanford. So I called him up, and his first reaction was, “I don’t want anything to do with this. The people I know, I would never introduce you to. There’s no hope of anything.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But we kept up the conversation. And then one day, he kind of got a strange look in his eye. This was Wu Hongda, or Harry Wu. And he said, “You know what?” He said, “If anybody goes back to China to do this, I should do it. Because I know what I’m doing. I know where the camps are, I know people who are in the camps, living outside of them now because they have no homes or no family to go back to and working in the prison factories. I could go back and possibly get some video.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But we kept up the conversation. And then one day, he kind of got a strange look in his eye. This was Wu Hongda, or Harry Wu. And he said, “You know what?” He said, “If anybody goes back to China to do this, I should do it. Because I know what I’m doing. I know where the camps are, I know people who are in the camps, living outside of them now because they have no homes or no family to go back to and working in the prison factories. I could go back and possibly get some video.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Why was Harry Wu imprisoned in these camps in the first place?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> You know, he never really knew why, and this is one of the ways that I think this whole protocol of imprisonment and ideological reform is so powerful, is that very often you will ask the Chinese Communist Party or the cadres, whatever, if you’re being interrogated, detained, imprisoned, whatever. You’ll say, well, what was the fault? What was the crime? And they say, “You know what you did.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> You know, he never really knew why, and this is one of the ways that I think this whole protocol of imprisonment and ideological reform is so powerful, is that very often you will ask the Chinese Communist Party or the cadres, whatever, if you’re being interrogated, detained, imprisoned, whatever. You’ll say, well, what was the fault? What was the crime? And they say, “You know what you did.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And of course that triggers everybody to think of a thousand reasons why they might have run off the rails somehow. So it was during, I think, the Hungarian uprising in 1956 that he did speak out. He thinks that was the reason, and thus he was locked up as a rightist.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And of course that triggers everybody to think of a thousand reasons why they might have run off the rails somehow. So it was during, I think, the Hungarian uprising in 1956 that he did speak out. He thinks that was the reason, and thus he was locked up as a rightist.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Locked up for 19 years and yet willing to go back. What was he risking by doing this investigation, undercover investigation, with you and 60 Minutes?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, I asked myself that very question. I wondered, what motivates this person? As I got to know him, I began to realize that one of the things that probably gave him both the fortitude and the reason to risk going back to the very camps he’d been in, which he could end up in again, was that he was a Catholic.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, I asked myself that very question. I wondered, what motivates this person? As I got to know him, I began to realize that one of the things that probably gave him both the fortitude and the reason to risk going back to the very camps he’d been in, which he could end up in again, was that he was a Catholic.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He was raised in a very wealthy Shanghai banking family. And he went to Jesuit schools, and his father was also deeply religious. And he often said to me that his faith was what sustained him in the camps.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And as we got to know each other and worked very closely together for almost a year, he often felt he owed it to them. And I said, who’s them? And he said, all the other people who were in the camp, and there were millions of them, who cannot speak out. Many are dead, many are damaged, but many are incapable of being able to say anything about what happened to themselves.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with China scholar and journalist Orville Schell about his 60 Minutes investigation to infiltrate China’s forced labor camps in 1991, and he’s written a book about it called \u003cem>Inside China’s Secret Prisons: An Undercover Exposé and Its Lasting Legacy\u003c/em>. We will talk about its lasting legacy today, but listeners, you’re invited to join the conversation. If you know anything about China’s forced labor detention system or want to ask Orville about it, you can email \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> at kqed.org. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram. We’re at KQED Forum. Or you can call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And let me remind listeners, you are listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. He did understand the stakes, though. I do understand that he insisted on recording on camera sort of a last will and testament. Horrible.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, before we actually went to China, and he began trying to penetrate these old camps with a camera bag that had a peephole and a hidden Sony cam inside the camera bag peeking out, he of course got very, very concerned about — you know, he realized he was going back into the dragon’s lair and he wasn’t sure what would happen, and I was going to go back with him, be sort of backup should anything happen, provide him with video cassettes, take the cassettes that he might succeed in shooting.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow, you write about the Velcro flap, you know, the bag being over the — I mean, it is just heartbreaking to listen to. And yet, ultimately, you know, this does happen. He does go back to try to make all this happen again, shoot it again, risk his life and his freedom again. And this does ultimately air on 60 Minutes in 1991.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Airdate: Monday, Sept 14 at 10 AM\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In 1991, China scholar and journalist Orville Schell teamed up with CBS News’ 60 Minutes for a perilous undercover investigation into China’s \u003cem>laogai\u003c/em>—a vast network of forced labor camps secretly exporting goods into American markets. Fearing severe retaliation against his family and friends in China, Schell shelved his written account for three decades. In his new book, “Inside China’s Secret Prisons: An Undercover Exposé and Its Lasting Legacy,” Schell reveals how that clandestine operation played out and shares why forced labor persists in China today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell,\u003c/strong> director of the Center on US-China Relations at the Asia Society and author of the new book “Inside China’s Secret Prisons: An Undercover Exposé and Its Lasting Legacy”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Orville Schell has been a leading scholar on China for more than 50 years, visiting the nation since the 1970s. He’s Asia Society’s Director of the Center on U.S.-China Relations and former Dean of UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism. In 1991, Schell helped CBS’s 60 Minutes conduct an exposé into China’s forced labor camps, where prisoners were making products that were being secretly exported to American markets. But he shelved the written account he’d promised then to The New Yorker until now. Schell’s new book, called \u003cem>Inside China’s Secret Prisons\u003c/em>, recounts the making of the 60 Minutes episode and how forced labor, despite its illegality, still supplies U.S. and other global markets today. Orville Schell joins me now. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Pleasure. So, Orville, help me understand, first of all, just the origins and theory behind the state-imposed forced labor system in China.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, you know, when China became the People’s Republic of China in 1949, after Mao Zedong defeated Chiang Kai-shek and he fled to Taiwan, they adopted sort of wholesale the Soviet system of government. You know, all of the relationship between the party and the state, all the structures were just adopted wholesale. And part of that, of course, was Russia’s system of penal institutions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But interestingly, China added a dimension to what Russians had long used in Siberia, which is namely just imprison people and you make them work and it’s punishment. But Mao Zedong had a kind of a new element he threw into the pot, and that was that, trying to follow the dictum of Stalin that part of socialist revolution was to re-engineer the human soul, he thought, okay, it’s not just enough to put people in prison. We need to add another element, and that was thought reform. What we have referred to in this country often as brainwashing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the idea was that if you could help people understand their political incorrectness, you know, the incorrectness of their thinking, that was as crucial as to make them pay, you know, penance for their so-called political crimes. So they added that element. So, reformed through labor camps meant that you got reformed by working for the state at no pay or extremely low pay in rare cases, but you also had to reform yourself politically and also, although Mao never wrote about this, psychologically.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So then, if it was about thought reform, the people that were there were there because they were political prisoners, essentially, because they said and, quote unquote, thought things that were wrong according to the government.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Yes, there’s this sort of wonderfully quaint term in Chinese, incorrect thought. And that thought needs to be, quote, rectified. And it can be rectified if the party compels people while in prison or even out of prison to go to all these struggle sessions and study meetings.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I went to a bunch of these when I was first in China, when Mao was still alive and the Cultural Revolution was still going on. I mean, these head-bangingly boring meetings where you had to read some document. You had to deliver self-criticisms about your own thinking and even confessions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And these were sort of exercises that really did undermine, I think, people’s belief in themselves. Because if, in fact, there’s a punishment and you’re in prison, shouldn’t there logically also be a crime? So then people start searching within themselves, all right, what did I do wrong? How can I get out of this bind? So it was a very crippling exercise that Mao Zedong sort of inadvertently tripped upon and threw into the whole question of incarceration for political purposes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, so these places were not just physically savage, but also sort of mentally savage as well. And then in the, I guess, early 1990s or late — was it 1991 when David Gelber approached you, a 60 Minutes producer calls you up and says he wants to document these places. Tell me what your reaction was to that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, I didn’t know this guy, David Gelber, who was a producer for Ed Bradley at 60 Minutes, and I just thought he was bereft of his senses. I mean, you know, you want to get into Chinese prisons with a giant camera and a big TV crew and a sound man with a fishnet vest and the whole nine yards. There wasn’t a snowball’s chance in hell that that could happen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So how did he convince you, then, to get in?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, he kept at it. And I thought this is interesting, but I really couldn’t see how to do it. It was a rather terrifying prospect, too, to think of trying to penetrate this prison system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But then it suddenly occurred to me that I’d met someone who was at Stanford at the Hoover Institution, who’d spent 19 years in the camps and was documenting that as his project at Stanford. So I called him up, and his first reaction was, “I don’t want anything to do with this. The people I know, I would never introduce you to. There’s no hope of anything.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But we kept up the conversation. And then one day, he kind of got a strange look in his eye. This was Wu Hongda, or Harry Wu. And he said, “You know what?” He said, “If anybody goes back to China to do this, I should do it. Because I know what I’m doing. I know where the camps are, I know people who are in the camps, living outside of them now because they have no homes or no family to go back to and working in the prison factories. I could go back and possibly get some video.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Why was Harry Wu imprisoned in these camps in the first place?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> You know, he never really knew why, and this is one of the ways that I think this whole protocol of imprisonment and ideological reform is so powerful, is that very often you will ask the Chinese Communist Party or the cadres, whatever, if you’re being interrogated, detained, imprisoned, whatever. You’ll say, well, what was the fault? What was the crime? And they say, “You know what you did.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And of course that triggers everybody to think of a thousand reasons why they might have run off the rails somehow. So it was during, I think, the Hungarian uprising in 1956 that he did speak out. He thinks that was the reason, and thus he was locked up as a rightist.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Locked up for 19 years and yet willing to go back. What was he risking by doing this investigation, undercover investigation, with you and 60 Minutes?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, I asked myself that very question. I wondered, what motivates this person? As I got to know him, I began to realize that one of the things that probably gave him both the fortitude and the reason to risk going back to the very camps he’d been in, which he could end up in again, was that he was a Catholic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He was raised in a very wealthy Shanghai banking family. And he went to Jesuit schools, and his father was also deeply religious. And he often said to me that his faith was what sustained him in the camps.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And as we got to know each other and worked very closely together for almost a year, he often felt he owed it to them. And I said, who’s them? And he said, all the other people who were in the camp, and there were millions of them, who cannot speak out. Many are dead, many are damaged, but many are incapable of being able to say anything about what happened to themselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with China scholar and journalist Orville Schell about his 60 Minutes investigation to infiltrate China’s forced labor camps in 1991, and he’s written a book about it called \u003cem>Inside China’s Secret Prisons: An Undercover Exposé and Its Lasting Legacy\u003c/em>. We will talk about its lasting legacy today, but listeners, you’re invited to join the conversation. If you know anything about China’s forced labor detention system or want to ask Orville about it, you can email \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> at kqed.org. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram. We’re at KQED Forum. Or you can call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And let me remind listeners, you are listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. He did understand the stakes, though. I do understand that he insisted on recording on camera sort of a last will and testament. Horrible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, before we actually went to China, and he began trying to penetrate these old camps with a camera bag that had a peephole and a hidden Sony cam inside the camera bag peeking out, he of course got very, very concerned about — you know, he realized he was going back into the dragon’s lair and he wasn’t sure what would happen, and I was going to go back with him, be sort of backup should anything happen, provide him with video cassettes, take the cassettes that he might succeed in shooting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so he did go back, and it was pretty extraordinary what he succeeded in doing. And the great tragedy was he got out with all these tapes, and all of the 60 Minutes crew from New York came out to Berkeley. And we got a big suite in the Fairmont. We started putting these cassettes into the video player, all excited and thinking we had the cat in the bag.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And one after the other. I mean, the video on it was pictures of the sky, pictures of his feet, he’s running, you know, “We have to get out of here.” There wasn’t one 10-second sequence in all of the hours he had shot that was suitable for commercial American television.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow, you write about the Velcro flap, you know, the bag being over the — I mean, it is just heartbreaking to listen to. And yet, ultimately, you know, this does happen. He does go back to try to make all this happen again, shoot it again, risk his life and his freedom again. And this does ultimately air on 60 Minutes in 1991.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And after the break we’ll get into that saga more and more. But, you know, it is pretty incredible that this aired back then, and what I really want to get into is why, even though this aired in 1991, you didn’t want to publish your written account.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ll have more with Orville Schell right after the break. His book about China’s secret prisons and undercover exposé and its lasting legacy about a perilous attempt to investigate the forced labor camps for 60 Minutes and what made Orville write a written account of it, release a written account of it now. Stay with us. You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Thursday, September 3, 2026 at 10am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At this week’s G20 summit in Asheville, N.C., global finance leaders met amid a bond sell-off that threatened to raise the cost of long-term borrowing and upend global economic stability. That comes as the US national debt officially topped $40 trillion — a record high that’s double what it was a decade ago, raising serious concerns for some economists. With the nation’s spiraling debt showing no signs of slowing, is it too late to avoid a U.S. fiscal cliff catastrophe? We talk to economic experts about the current and future impacts, and whether there’s a solution.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley,\u003c/strong> chief economics correspondent, NPR News\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Talmon Joseph Smith,\u003c/strong> economics reporter, The New York Times\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Maya MacGuineas,\u003c/strong> president, Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Rachel Myrow in for Mina Kim. Maybe you’ve seen the news headlines about our spiraling national debt and thought, there is not enough coffee in the world to get me to click on that. I can’t promise this Forum segment won’t hurt, but hear me out. It’s not the math that’s hard. It is the politics. Which is why we brought in three eminent brains, all of whom can translate the economics of a $40 trillion debt for us and the politics. Fear not, dear Forum listeners, you are in good hands. We’re here with Scott Horsley, chief economics correspondent at NPR. Scott, always a pleasure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley:\u003c/strong> Nice to be with you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> And we’ve also got Talmon Joseph Smith, economics reporter for the business section of the New York Times. Talmon, welcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Hey, it’s great to be here. I’m psyched.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Well, let’s get started. Scott, walk me through this like I’m a golden retriever. What is the difference between the debt and the deficit?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley:\u003c/strong> Well, the deficit is the difference between what the government collects every year in tax revenue and what it spends. Right now, it’s about $2 trillion a year more that we’re spending than we are collecting in tax revenues. And so, in order to close that gap, the government goes out and borrows money. And if you add up all the accumulated borrowing from the last 250 years, that’s the debt.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, it was about $20 trillion as recently as 2017, and it’s now doubled to $40 trillion as of last month.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Okay, Talmon, since 2000, we have cut taxes tilted towards corporations and high earners four times: the two Bush tax cuts, the 2017 Trump tax cuts in his first term, and additional tax cuts in Trump’s second term. I know that this is a bipartisan problem with bipartisan causes, but is it fair to say that it’s more bipartisan towards Bush and Trump, or is that just politics getting in the way of understanding this?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Yeah, no, it’s a good question. No, I think, and Scott is a great example of this, it’s important to both recognize the bipartisan nature of any problem, but also, when there are asymmetries, it’s important to recognize and point out those asymmetries without fear or favor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it’s absolutely true that Republican administrations — the Bush administration, George W. Bush — did two massive tax cuts tilted towards corporations and the rich. But there were also middle-class tax cuts in there and tax cuts that helped small businesses. And then Donald Trump in his first term, now in the second term, has also passed multi-, multi-trillion-dollar tax cuts that are tilted towards the rich and corporations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, it’s also true that the Obama administration decided to extend the vast majority of the Bush tax cuts under pressure from its moderate wing and from the very powerful wing of its donor class. And that’s part of what makes it bipartisan.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And also the Democrats under Joe Biden in 2021 had a chance to, if they wanted to, take their slim majority, but majority nonetheless, and roll back not just the Trump tax cuts, but also roll back some aspects of the Bush tax cuts from long ago. They declined to do that for many of the same reasons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you can make political judgments, partisan judgments, about whether those were good reasons or not. But that is, as you suggested, a whole other conversation. What’s important is to point out the mathematics of that. And the math is true that if you take away those four massive tax cuts since the turn of the millennium, we’d be in a very, very different fiscal situation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, again, without stepping on the toes of the rest of the conversation, there’s actually a very active debate in the bond market on Wall Street about how bad the fiscal situation is outside of the inflationary aspects that we’re dealing with right now, which may or may not be connected to the size of the deficit itself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the core of your question is absolutely true, that our fiscal deterioration in terms of the mathematics comes from those four big sweeps of tax cuts, yes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Well, given that you brought it up, Talmon, I’m sorry to bring up a rival newsroom, but there’s this fabulous quote in yesterday’s Wall Street Journal about the effects on the markets of Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent’s plan to buy back more long-term bonds. The chief global strategist at JPMorgan Asset Management says, quote, “If the government says it’s going to raise taxes and cut spending to bring the deficit down, that’s one thing. Saying you found another credit card that you haven’t maxed out in your stack of 20 doesn’t actually inspire confidence,” fair?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Um, yeah. I believe that’s, uh — obviously, there are a lot of people high up at JPMorgan who have different titles. It sounds like that might be David Kelly at J.P. — very, very bright guy. Not only a markets guy, but a Ph.D. economist, and it’s no — it’s a good job. And far be it from me to cast too much doubt on anything that David Kelly has to say.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, but he also knows that, you know, the federal government doesn’t have credit cards like we do. The federal government has way, way more tools. The U.S. government also sells bonds in its own currency, it borrows in its own currency. The U.S. government can never actually go bankrupt. None of us have a money printer, and we can go on and on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But it is also true that whether it’s the Treasury or the Fed, the government does have limits, and for a bunch of very, very good reasons, we have a multigenerational tradition, not just in this country but around the globe, of market interest rates being set not just by central banks, but by investors and by households — you and I, people that have bonds in their IRAs or other investment portfolios — deciding, hey, which rate that is being offered on the market for this bond, for this fixed-income asset, is enough income over time right now, as I see it, so that I’ll be compensated for what I think inflation will be over the near term, over the medium term, and over the long term.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And he’s absolutely right that there’s a lot of hocus-pocus that a Treasury secretary of the United States can do. He is a very, very powerful figure, the Treasury secretary. But ultimately, he’s going to be fighting against market fundamentals. And the Treasury secretary knows that well as a longtime practitioner of markets before he took up his current seat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>My final declaration is that, yes, it is a fair joke, though, like always, they’re—\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley:\u003c/strong> Scott, yeah. And one of the reasons the debt is getting more attention right now is because those market interest rates, those interest rates that investors are demanding in exchange for lending money to the federal government, have been going up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So we have a sort of double whammy where we owe more money than we used to, a lot more, and we’re having to pay a higher interest rate to keep bankrolling that $40 trillion in debt. And the combination of a very big principal and a rising interest rate means that our cash payouts now to those investors who are financing our deficits, our annual deficits, keep going up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in the current fiscal year, we’ve already spent more than a trillion dollars just paying interest on all that old debt. So that’s a trillion dollars we have to raise and spend before we can, you know, pay out the first Social Security check or the first Medicare bill or buy the first F-15, whatever else we want to do as a federal government and as a country. We’ve got to pay that trillion-dollar interest tab first.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Scott, the word “investors” — it’s so gray, it’s so amorphous. Explain for us who the federal government owes all this money to: pension funds, foreign governments, retirees. It strikes me as a group with genuinely nothing in common except we owe them all money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s right. It’s all of those folks, and that may include many of your listeners. You know, through their own retirement accounts, or if they’ve got a bond fund parked in a brokerage someplace, they may be, in effect, bankrolling the government. And they’re doing so because that’s been traditionally a safe place to park their money and to get a not spectacular but solid and certainly ironclad return.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And those returns have been going up. Now, another reason they’re going up is for a long period of time — for most of the teens, for example — interest rates were super low because, as our colleagues at Planet Money said, there was this giant pool of money looking for a place to park, and one of the popular places to park was in U.S. government Treasuries. And so there was excess savings chasing that debt, and so the interest rates were really low for a really long time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But that giant pool of money is not so giant anymore. Or at least there’s a whole lot more places to park it. One place to park now is all the money that big tech companies are borrowing to build these data centers. They’re borrowing vast sums of money, and that’s another way that those investors, those savers, can park their money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the competition for that giant pool of savings is greater now, and that’s another reason that the interest rates have been rising.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Talmon, there was a global bond sell-off Tuesday. In plain English, what happened?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Right now — I shouldn’t even say right now. I’d say since spring, since the Iran war really kicked off between primarily Israel and the United States and Iran, though of course, as listeners of NPR know, the list of combatants has sort of spread and is sort of vacillating from month to month.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What that did is that spiked oil prices, and the prices of all sorts of ancillary products that have to deal with oil, that are petroleum-connected in some way. That’s inflationary. It also disrupted supply chains. That’s inflation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s also yet another signal of how globalization, which was, as Scott put in — you know, Scott mentioned the teens, the 2010s — globalization was thriving. The 2010s, it was thriving. It was thriving in the ’90s. It was thriving in the 2000s in general. We’ve seen that sort of a regime of globalization not only halt but reverse as we’ve seen either national economic priorities or global hostilities rise up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And one of the most immediate effects that you can expect from that, according to both, you know, academic economists and global bond portfolio managers, is you can expect interest rates to go up. And so that’s what we’ve seen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, we mentioned David Kelly at J.P. Morgan. Abby Yoder, who works at a different branch of J.P. Morgan, actually was interviewed this morning, and she mentioned, you know, her take on this, which is that we wouldn’t even be having this conversation, or at least we wouldn’t be having this level of worry about a global bond sell-off — or there might not even be a global bond sell-off — if this war were not going on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, of course, counterfactuals are hard to prove because inherently you can’t deal with them. But I thought that was a good point. And, you know—\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Point to step into the break. We are talking about the U.S. national debt officially topping $40 trillion, a record high, double what it was a decade ago, raising some serious concerns for economists. I don’t know about the rest of us, but folks, we want to hear your comments and questions. What are you worried about most, your retirement accounts or your credit card debt or both?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Rachel Myrow in for Mina Kim. Maybe you’ve seen the news headlines about our spiraling national debt and thought, there is not enough coffee in the world to get me to click on that. I can’t promise this Forum segment won’t hurt, but hear me out. It’s not the math that’s hard. It is the politics. Which is why we brought in three eminent brains, all of whom can translate the economics of a $40 trillion debt for us and the politics. Fear not, dear Forum listeners, you are in good hands. We’re here with Scott Horsley, chief economics correspondent at NPR. Scott, always a pleasure.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Rachel Myrow in for Mina Kim. Maybe you’ve seen the news headlines about our spiraling national debt and thought, there is not enough coffee in the world to get me to click on that. I can’t promise this Forum segment won’t hurt, but hear me out. It’s not the math that’s hard. It is the politics. Which is why we brought in three eminent brains, all of whom can translate the economics of a $40 trillion debt for us and the politics. Fear not, dear Forum listeners, you are in good hands. We’re here with Scott Horsley, chief economics correspondent at NPR. Scott, always a pleasure.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> And we’ve also got Talmon Joseph Smith, economics reporter for the business section of the New York Times. Talmon, welcome.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Well, let’s get started. Scott, walk me through this like I’m a golden retriever. What is the difference between the debt and the deficit?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley:\u003c/strong> Well, the deficit is the difference between what the government collects every year in tax revenue and what it spends. Right now, it’s about $2 trillion a year more that we’re spending than we are collecting in tax revenues. And so, in order to close that gap, the government goes out and borrows money. And if you add up all the accumulated borrowing from the last 250 years, that’s the debt.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley:\u003c/strong> Well, the deficit is the difference between what the government collects every year in tax revenue and what it spends. Right now, it’s about $2 trillion a year more that we’re spending than we are collecting in tax revenues. And so, in order to close that gap, the government goes out and borrows money. And if you add up all the accumulated borrowing from the last 250 years, that’s the debt.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Okay, Talmon, since 2000, we have cut taxes tilted towards corporations and high earners four times: the two Bush tax cuts, the 2017 Trump tax cuts in his first term, and additional tax cuts in Trump’s second term. I know that this is a bipartisan problem with bipartisan causes, but is it fair to say that it’s more bipartisan towards Bush and Trump, or is that just politics getting in the way of understanding this?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Okay, Talmon, since 2000, we have cut taxes tilted towards corporations and high earners four times: the two Bush tax cuts, the 2017 Trump tax cuts in his first term, and additional tax cuts in Trump’s second term. I know that this is a bipartisan problem with bipartisan causes, but is it fair to say that it’s more bipartisan towards Bush and Trump, or is that just politics getting in the way of understanding this?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Yeah, no, it’s a good question. No, I think, and Scott is a great example of this, it’s important to both recognize the bipartisan nature of any problem, but also, when there are asymmetries, it’s important to recognize and point out those asymmetries without fear or favor.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it’s absolutely true that Republican administrations — the Bush administration, George W. Bush — did two massive tax cuts tilted towards corporations and the rich. But there were also middle-class tax cuts in there and tax cuts that helped small businesses. And then Donald Trump in his first term, now in the second term, has also passed multi-, multi-trillion-dollar tax cuts that are tilted towards the rich and corporations.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And you can make political judgments, partisan judgments, about whether those were good reasons or not. But that is, as you suggested, a whole other conversation. What’s important is to point out the mathematics of that. And the math is true that if you take away those four massive tax cuts since the turn of the millennium, we’d be in a very, very different fiscal situation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, again, without stepping on the toes of the rest of the conversation, there’s actually a very active debate in the bond market on Wall Street about how bad the fiscal situation is outside of the inflationary aspects that we’re dealing with right now, which may or may not be connected to the size of the deficit itself.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now, again, without stepping on the toes of the rest of the conversation, there’s actually a very active debate in the bond market on Wall Street about how bad the fiscal situation is outside of the inflationary aspects that we’re dealing with right now, which may or may not be connected to the size of the deficit itself.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But the core of your question is absolutely true, that our fiscal deterioration in terms of the mathematics comes from those four big sweeps of tax cuts, yes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But the core of your question is absolutely true, that our fiscal deterioration in terms of the mathematics comes from those four big sweeps of tax cuts, yes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Well, given that you brought it up, Talmon, I’m sorry to bring up a rival newsroom, but there’s this fabulous quote in yesterday’s Wall Street Journal about the effects on the markets of Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent’s plan to buy back more long-term bonds. The chief global strategist at JPMorgan Asset Management says, quote, “If the government says it’s going to raise taxes and cut spending to bring the deficit down, that’s one thing. Saying you found another credit card that you haven’t maxed out in your stack of 20 doesn’t actually inspire confidence,” fair?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Well, given that you brought it up, Talmon, I’m sorry to bring up a rival newsroom, but there’s this fabulous quote in yesterday’s Wall Street Journal about the effects on the markets of Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent’s plan to buy back more long-term bonds. The chief global strategist at JPMorgan Asset Management says, quote, “If the government says it’s going to raise taxes and cut spending to bring the deficit down, that’s one thing. Saying you found another credit card that you haven’t maxed out in your stack of 20 doesn’t actually inspire confidence,” fair?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Um, yeah. I believe that’s, uh — obviously, there are a lot of people high up at JPMorgan who have different titles. It sounds like that might be David Kelly at J.P. — very, very bright guy. Not only a markets guy, but a Ph.D. economist, and it’s no — it’s a good job. And far be it from me to cast too much doubt on anything that David Kelly has to say.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Um, yeah. I believe that’s, uh — obviously, there are a lot of people high up at JPMorgan who have different titles. It sounds like that might be David Kelly at J.P. — very, very bright guy. Not only a markets guy, but a Ph.D. economist, and it’s no — it’s a good job. And far be it from me to cast too much doubt on anything that David Kelly has to say.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Uh, but he also knows that, you know, the federal government doesn’t have credit cards like we do. The federal government has way, way more tools. The U.S. government also sells bonds in its own currency, it borrows in its own currency. The U.S. government can never actually go bankrupt. None of us have a money printer, and we can go on and on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Uh, but he also knows that, you know, the federal government doesn’t have credit cards like we do. The federal government has way, way more tools. The U.S. government also sells bonds in its own currency, it borrows in its own currency. The U.S. government can never actually go bankrupt. None of us have a money printer, and we can go on and on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But it is also true that whether it’s the Treasury or the Fed, the government does have limits, and for a bunch of very, very good reasons, we have a multigenerational tradition, not just in this country but around the globe, of market interest rates being set not just by central banks, but by investors and by households — you and I, people that have bonds in their IRAs or other investment portfolios — deciding, hey, which rate that is being offered on the market for this bond, for this fixed-income asset, is enough income over time right now, as I see it, so that I’ll be compensated for what I think inflation will be over the near term, over the medium term, and over the long term.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But it is also true that whether it’s the Treasury or the Fed, the government does have limits, and for a bunch of very, very good reasons, we have a multigenerational tradition, not just in this country but around the globe, of market interest rates being set not just by central banks, but by investors and by households — you and I, people that have bonds in their IRAs or other investment portfolios — deciding, hey, which rate that is being offered on the market for this bond, for this fixed-income asset, is enough income over time right now, as I see it, so that I’ll be compensated for what I think inflation will be over the near term, over the medium term, and over the long term.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And he’s absolutely right that there’s a lot of hocus-pocus that a Treasury secretary of the United States can do. He is a very, very powerful figure, the Treasury secretary. But ultimately, he’s going to be fighting against market fundamentals. And the Treasury secretary knows that well as a longtime practitioner of markets before he took up his current seat.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And he’s absolutely right that there’s a lot of hocus-pocus that a Treasury secretary of the United States can do. He is a very, very powerful figure, the Treasury secretary. But ultimately, he’s going to be fighting against market fundamentals. And the Treasury secretary knows that well as a longtime practitioner of markets before he took up his current seat.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>My final declaration is that, yes, it is a fair joke, though, like always, they’re—\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley:\u003c/strong> Scott, yeah. And one of the reasons the debt is getting more attention right now is because those market interest rates, those interest rates that investors are demanding in exchange for lending money to the federal government, have been going up.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley:\u003c/strong> Scott, yeah. And one of the reasons the debt is getting more attention right now is because those market interest rates, those interest rates that investors are demanding in exchange for lending money to the federal government, have been going up.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So we have a sort of double whammy where we owe more money than we used to, a lot more, and we’re having to pay a higher interest rate to keep bankrolling that $40 trillion in debt. And the combination of a very big principal and a rising interest rate means that our cash payouts now to those investors who are financing our deficits, our annual deficits, keep going up.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So we have a sort of double whammy where we owe more money than we used to, a lot more, and we’re having to pay a higher interest rate to keep bankrolling that $40 trillion in debt. And the combination of a very big principal and a rising interest rate means that our cash payouts now to those investors who are financing our deficits, our annual deficits, keep going up.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And in the current fiscal year, we’ve already spent more than a trillion dollars just paying interest on all that old debt. So that’s a trillion dollars we have to raise and spend before we can, you know, pay out the first Social Security check or the first Medicare bill or buy the first F-15, whatever else we want to do as a federal government and as a country. We’ve got to pay that trillion-dollar interest tab first.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And in the current fiscal year, we’ve already spent more than a trillion dollars just paying interest on all that old debt. So that’s a trillion dollars we have to raise and spend before we can, you know, pay out the first Social Security check or the first Medicare bill or buy the first F-15, whatever else we want to do as a federal government and as a country. We’ve got to pay that trillion-dollar interest tab first.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Scott, the word “investors” — it’s so gray, it’s so amorphous. Explain for us who the federal government owes all this money to: pension funds, foreign governments, retirees. It strikes me as a group with genuinely nothing in common except we owe them all money.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Scott, the word “investors” — it’s so gray, it’s so amorphous. Explain for us who the federal government owes all this money to: pension funds, foreign governments, retirees. It strikes me as a group with genuinely nothing in common except we owe them all money.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s right. It’s all of those folks, and that may include many of your listeners. You know, through their own retirement accounts, or if they’ve got a bond fund parked in a brokerage someplace, they may be, in effect, bankrolling the government. And they’re doing so because that’s been traditionally a safe place to park their money and to get a not spectacular but solid and certainly ironclad return.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s right. It’s all of those folks, and that may include many of your listeners. You know, through their own retirement accounts, or if they’ve got a bond fund parked in a brokerage someplace, they may be, in effect, bankrolling the government. And they’re doing so because that’s been traditionally a safe place to park their money and to get a not spectacular but solid and certainly ironclad return.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And those returns have been going up. Now, another reason they’re going up is for a long period of time — for most of the teens, for example — interest rates were super low because, as our colleagues at Planet Money said, there was this giant pool of money looking for a place to park, and one of the popular places to park was in U.S. government Treasuries. And so there was excess savings chasing that debt, and so the interest rates were really low for a really long time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And those returns have been going up. Now, another reason they’re going up is for a long period of time — for most of the teens, for example — interest rates were super low because, as our colleagues at Planet Money said, there was this giant pool of money looking for a place to park, and one of the popular places to park was in U.S. government Treasuries. And so there was excess savings chasing that debt, and so the interest rates were really low for a really long time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But that giant pool of money is not so giant anymore. Or at least there’s a whole lot more places to park it. One place to park now is all the money that big tech companies are borrowing to build these data centers. They’re borrowing vast sums of money, and that’s another way that those investors, those savers, can park their money.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But that giant pool of money is not so giant anymore. Or at least there’s a whole lot more places to park it. One place to park now is all the money that big tech companies are borrowing to build these data centers. They’re borrowing vast sums of money, and that’s another way that those investors, those savers, can park their money.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So the competition for that giant pool of savings is greater now, and that’s another reason that the interest rates have been rising.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So the competition for that giant pool of savings is greater now, and that’s another reason that the interest rates have been rising.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Talmon, there was a global bond sell-off Tuesday. In plain English, what happened?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Talmon, there was a global bond sell-off Tuesday. In plain English, what happened?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Right now — I shouldn’t even say right now. I’d say since spring, since the Iran war really kicked off between primarily Israel and the United States and Iran, though of course, as listeners of NPR know, the list of combatants has sort of spread and is sort of vacillating from month to month.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Right now — I shouldn’t even say right now. I’d say since spring, since the Iran war really kicked off between primarily Israel and the United States and Iran, though of course, as listeners of NPR know, the list of combatants has sort of spread and is sort of vacillating from month to month.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What that did is that spiked oil prices, and the prices of all sorts of ancillary products that have to deal with oil, that are petroleum-connected in some way. That’s inflationary. It also disrupted supply chains. That’s inflation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What that did is that spiked oil prices, and the prices of all sorts of ancillary products that have to deal with oil, that are petroleum-connected in some way. That’s inflationary. It also disrupted supply chains. That’s inflation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s also yet another signal of how globalization, which was, as Scott put in — you know, Scott mentioned the teens, the 2010s — globalization was thriving. The 2010s, it was thriving. It was thriving in the ’90s. It was thriving in the 2000s in general. We’ve seen that sort of a regime of globalization not only halt but reverse as we’ve seen either national economic priorities or global hostilities rise up.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It’s also yet another signal of how globalization, which was, as Scott put in — you know, Scott mentioned the teens, the 2010s — globalization was thriving. The 2010s, it was thriving. It was thriving in the ’90s. It was thriving in the 2000s in general. We’ve seen that sort of a regime of globalization not only halt but reverse as we’ve seen either national economic priorities or global hostilities rise up.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And one of the most immediate effects that you can expect from that, according to both, you know, academic economists and global bond portfolio managers, is you can expect interest rates to go up. And so that’s what we’ve seen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And one of the most immediate effects that you can expect from that, according to both, you know, academic economists and global bond portfolio managers, is you can expect interest rates to go up. And so that’s what we’ve seen.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I mean, we mentioned David Kelly at J.P. Morgan. Abby Yoder, who works at a different branch of J.P. Morgan, actually was interviewed this morning, and she mentioned, you know, her take on this, which is that we wouldn’t even be having this conversation, or at least we wouldn’t be having this level of worry about a global bond sell-off — or there might not even be a global bond sell-off — if this war were not going on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I mean, we mentioned David Kelly at J.P. Morgan. Abby Yoder, who works at a different branch of J.P. Morgan, actually was interviewed this morning, and she mentioned, you know, her take on this, which is that we wouldn’t even be having this conversation, or at least we wouldn’t be having this level of worry about a global bond sell-off — or there might not even be a global bond sell-off — if this war were not going on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, of course, counterfactuals are hard to prove because inherently you can’t deal with them. But I thought that was a good point. And, you know—\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Point to step into the break. We are talking about the U.S. national debt officially topping $40 trillion, a record high, double what it was a decade ago, raising some serious concerns for economists. I don’t know about the rest of us, but folks, we want to hear your comments and questions. What are you worried about most, your retirement accounts or your credit card debt or both?\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Thursday, September 3, 2026 at 10am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At this week’s G20 summit in Asheville, N.C., global finance leaders met amid a bond sell-off that threatened to raise the cost of long-term borrowing and upend global economic stability. That comes as the US national debt officially topped $40 trillion — a record high that’s double what it was a decade ago, raising serious concerns for some economists. With the nation’s spiraling debt showing no signs of slowing, is it too late to avoid a U.S. fiscal cliff catastrophe? We talk to economic experts about the current and future impacts, and whether there’s a solution.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley,\u003c/strong> chief economics correspondent, NPR News\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Talmon Joseph Smith,\u003c/strong> economics reporter, The New York Times\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Maya MacGuineas,\u003c/strong> president, Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Rachel Myrow in for Mina Kim. Maybe you’ve seen the news headlines about our spiraling national debt and thought, there is not enough coffee in the world to get me to click on that. I can’t promise this Forum segment won’t hurt, but hear me out. It’s not the math that’s hard. It is the politics. Which is why we brought in three eminent brains, all of whom can translate the economics of a $40 trillion debt for us and the politics. Fear not, dear Forum listeners, you are in good hands. We’re here with Scott Horsley, chief economics correspondent at NPR. Scott, always a pleasure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley:\u003c/strong> Nice to be with you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> And we’ve also got Talmon Joseph Smith, economics reporter for the business section of the New York Times. Talmon, welcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Hey, it’s great to be here. I’m psyched.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Well, let’s get started. Scott, walk me through this like I’m a golden retriever. What is the difference between the debt and the deficit?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley:\u003c/strong> Well, the deficit is the difference between what the government collects every year in tax revenue and what it spends. Right now, it’s about $2 trillion a year more that we’re spending than we are collecting in tax revenues. And so, in order to close that gap, the government goes out and borrows money. And if you add up all the accumulated borrowing from the last 250 years, that’s the debt.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, it was about $20 trillion as recently as 2017, and it’s now doubled to $40 trillion as of last month.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Okay, Talmon, since 2000, we have cut taxes tilted towards corporations and high earners four times: the two Bush tax cuts, the 2017 Trump tax cuts in his first term, and additional tax cuts in Trump’s second term. I know that this is a bipartisan problem with bipartisan causes, but is it fair to say that it’s more bipartisan towards Bush and Trump, or is that just politics getting in the way of understanding this?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Yeah, no, it’s a good question. No, I think, and Scott is a great example of this, it’s important to both recognize the bipartisan nature of any problem, but also, when there are asymmetries, it’s important to recognize and point out those asymmetries without fear or favor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it’s absolutely true that Republican administrations — the Bush administration, George W. Bush — did two massive tax cuts tilted towards corporations and the rich. But there were also middle-class tax cuts in there and tax cuts that helped small businesses. And then Donald Trump in his first term, now in the second term, has also passed multi-, multi-trillion-dollar tax cuts that are tilted towards the rich and corporations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, it’s also true that the Obama administration decided to extend the vast majority of the Bush tax cuts under pressure from its moderate wing and from the very powerful wing of its donor class. And that’s part of what makes it bipartisan.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And also the Democrats under Joe Biden in 2021 had a chance to, if they wanted to, take their slim majority, but majority nonetheless, and roll back not just the Trump tax cuts, but also roll back some aspects of the Bush tax cuts from long ago. They declined to do that for many of the same reasons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you can make political judgments, partisan judgments, about whether those were good reasons or not. But that is, as you suggested, a whole other conversation. What’s important is to point out the mathematics of that. And the math is true that if you take away those four massive tax cuts since the turn of the millennium, we’d be in a very, very different fiscal situation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, again, without stepping on the toes of the rest of the conversation, there’s actually a very active debate in the bond market on Wall Street about how bad the fiscal situation is outside of the inflationary aspects that we’re dealing with right now, which may or may not be connected to the size of the deficit itself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the core of your question is absolutely true, that our fiscal deterioration in terms of the mathematics comes from those four big sweeps of tax cuts, yes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Well, given that you brought it up, Talmon, I’m sorry to bring up a rival newsroom, but there’s this fabulous quote in yesterday’s Wall Street Journal about the effects on the markets of Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent’s plan to buy back more long-term bonds. The chief global strategist at JPMorgan Asset Management says, quote, “If the government says it’s going to raise taxes and cut spending to bring the deficit down, that’s one thing. Saying you found another credit card that you haven’t maxed out in your stack of 20 doesn’t actually inspire confidence,” fair?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Um, yeah. I believe that’s, uh — obviously, there are a lot of people high up at JPMorgan who have different titles. It sounds like that might be David Kelly at J.P. — very, very bright guy. Not only a markets guy, but a Ph.D. economist, and it’s no — it’s a good job. And far be it from me to cast too much doubt on anything that David Kelly has to say.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, but he also knows that, you know, the federal government doesn’t have credit cards like we do. The federal government has way, way more tools. The U.S. government also sells bonds in its own currency, it borrows in its own currency. The U.S. government can never actually go bankrupt. None of us have a money printer, and we can go on and on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But it is also true that whether it’s the Treasury or the Fed, the government does have limits, and for a bunch of very, very good reasons, we have a multigenerational tradition, not just in this country but around the globe, of market interest rates being set not just by central banks, but by investors and by households — you and I, people that have bonds in their IRAs or other investment portfolios — deciding, hey, which rate that is being offered on the market for this bond, for this fixed-income asset, is enough income over time right now, as I see it, so that I’ll be compensated for what I think inflation will be over the near term, over the medium term, and over the long term.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And he’s absolutely right that there’s a lot of hocus-pocus that a Treasury secretary of the United States can do. He is a very, very powerful figure, the Treasury secretary. But ultimately, he’s going to be fighting against market fundamentals. And the Treasury secretary knows that well as a longtime practitioner of markets before he took up his current seat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>My final declaration is that, yes, it is a fair joke, though, like always, they’re—\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley:\u003c/strong> Scott, yeah. And one of the reasons the debt is getting more attention right now is because those market interest rates, those interest rates that investors are demanding in exchange for lending money to the federal government, have been going up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So we have a sort of double whammy where we owe more money than we used to, a lot more, and we’re having to pay a higher interest rate to keep bankrolling that $40 trillion in debt. And the combination of a very big principal and a rising interest rate means that our cash payouts now to those investors who are financing our deficits, our annual deficits, keep going up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in the current fiscal year, we’ve already spent more than a trillion dollars just paying interest on all that old debt. So that’s a trillion dollars we have to raise and spend before we can, you know, pay out the first Social Security check or the first Medicare bill or buy the first F-15, whatever else we want to do as a federal government and as a country. We’ve got to pay that trillion-dollar interest tab first.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Scott, the word “investors” — it’s so gray, it’s so amorphous. Explain for us who the federal government owes all this money to: pension funds, foreign governments, retirees. It strikes me as a group with genuinely nothing in common except we owe them all money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s right. It’s all of those folks, and that may include many of your listeners. You know, through their own retirement accounts, or if they’ve got a bond fund parked in a brokerage someplace, they may be, in effect, bankrolling the government. And they’re doing so because that’s been traditionally a safe place to park their money and to get a not spectacular but solid and certainly ironclad return.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And those returns have been going up. Now, another reason they’re going up is for a long period of time — for most of the teens, for example — interest rates were super low because, as our colleagues at Planet Money said, there was this giant pool of money looking for a place to park, and one of the popular places to park was in U.S. government Treasuries. And so there was excess savings chasing that debt, and so the interest rates were really low for a really long time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But that giant pool of money is not so giant anymore. Or at least there’s a whole lot more places to park it. One place to park now is all the money that big tech companies are borrowing to build these data centers. They’re borrowing vast sums of money, and that’s another way that those investors, those savers, can park their money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the competition for that giant pool of savings is greater now, and that’s another reason that the interest rates have been rising.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Talmon, there was a global bond sell-off Tuesday. In plain English, what happened?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Right now — I shouldn’t even say right now. I’d say since spring, since the Iran war really kicked off between primarily Israel and the United States and Iran, though of course, as listeners of NPR know, the list of combatants has sort of spread and is sort of vacillating from month to month.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What that did is that spiked oil prices, and the prices of all sorts of ancillary products that have to deal with oil, that are petroleum-connected in some way. That’s inflationary. It also disrupted supply chains. That’s inflation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s also yet another signal of how globalization, which was, as Scott put in — you know, Scott mentioned the teens, the 2010s — globalization was thriving. The 2010s, it was thriving. It was thriving in the ’90s. It was thriving in the 2000s in general. We’ve seen that sort of a regime of globalization not only halt but reverse as we’ve seen either national economic priorities or global hostilities rise up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And one of the most immediate effects that you can expect from that, according to both, you know, academic economists and global bond portfolio managers, is you can expect interest rates to go up. And so that’s what we’ve seen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, we mentioned David Kelly at J.P. Morgan. Abby Yoder, who works at a different branch of J.P. Morgan, actually was interviewed this morning, and she mentioned, you know, her take on this, which is that we wouldn’t even be having this conversation, or at least we wouldn’t be having this level of worry about a global bond sell-off — or there might not even be a global bond sell-off — if this war were not going on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, of course, counterfactuals are hard to prove because inherently you can’t deal with them. But I thought that was a good point. And, you know—\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Point to step into the break. We are talking about the U.S. national debt officially topping $40 trillion, a record high, double what it was a decade ago, raising some serious concerns for economists. I don’t know about the rest of us, but folks, we want to hear your comments and questions. What are you worried about most, your retirement accounts or your credit card debt or both?\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Monday, Aug. 31 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Are you still wearing sunscreen? There’s been a recent wave of viral TikToks declaring that sunscreen is “toxic,” and they’ve helped ignite an anti-sunscreen movement. With recent surveys showing that millions of Americans are cutting back on sun protection, dermatologists worry that misinformation will lead to higher rates of skin cancer and melanoma. We look at what’s driving “sunscreen hesitancy,” dig into the social media claims and hear how health providers are pushing back against misinformation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood,\u003c/strong> beauty and grooming director of \u003cem>Men’s Health\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Women’s Health\u003c/em> and writer of \u003ca href=\"https://www.menshealth.com/health/a71867310/anti-sunscreen-movement/\">“The Anti-Sunscreen Movement Is Coming for You” \u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd,\u003c/strong> board-certified dermatologist and founder of DermFriends\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Some 16 million adults reported reducing or stopping sunscreen use, according to the American Academy of Dermatology’s 2026 Practice Safe Sun Survey, because of online claims about its safety. And a 2024 survey by the Orlando Health Cancer Institute found that one in seven adults under the age of 35 now believes that daily sunscreen use is more harmful to skin than direct sun exposure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This I learned from Brian Underwood’s piece in Men’s Health last month, called “The Anti-Sunscreen Movement Is Coming for You.” In this hour, we take a closer look at the growing influence of sunscreen opponents and what impact it’s had. Underwood is Beauty and Grooming Director of Men’s Health and Women’s Health and joins me now. Brian, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me, Mina.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also with us is Dr. Heather Woolery-Lloyd, board-certified dermatologist and founder of DermFriends. Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, really glad to have you with us too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Brian, let me start with you. Tell me about some of these claims on social media. What are influencers saying?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, a myriad of things, but I think that some of the researchers that looked into this have found that the number one thing that sort of anti-sunscreen creators are talking about is the toxicity of certain ingredients that they claim are in sunscreens. And this is mainly the organic filters, commonly known as chemical filters. And that is sort of the main driving argument that these creators have, is that these ingredients are somehow toxic. Some of them, you know, they claim are cancer-causing themselves. And, you know, among other things, I would say that is probably the most prevalent claim that they make on social media platforms.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And how colorful shall — I always say, hey, are some of these videos or messages getting —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, as somebody who did quite a deep dive into this topic for Men’s Health, I viewed quite a few of these videos. And obviously, you know, we’re talking about social media here. So you want to get and hold people’s attention. And the more outlandish you are in doing so, the more the algorithm is going to favor you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So you have people setting fire to spray sunscreens to create these sort of — almost look like makeshift torches from \u003cem>The Walking Dead\u003c/em> or something. But, of course, that’s really what it’s about. It’s about capturing people’s attention, and the way that these platforms prioritize that is by being as outlandish as possible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And from the stats I quoted, they are capturing people’s attention, right? These messages have been convincing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it appears that way. And that was sort of the genesis of this story. I was speaking to some of my friends at some major skin cancer nonprofits, and some of my other contacts at dermatology associations like the American Academy of Dermatology. And both of those organizations were taking sunscreen misinformation on social media platforms very seriously and have launched campaigns to combat some of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that’s when I realized, that’s what it became — something that I was just seeing on my feed. That’s when it transformed into something that I thought was a bigger story. If these organizations were taking this seriously, then perhaps I, as a journalist, should be taking it seriously. And that is kind of what led me to do this story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And which groups do you find that these messages seem to be having the most effect on right now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> You know, it’s hard to say, but anecdotally, from diving into this world, a lot of the creators were young men. And that’s kind of why we decided to run this story in Men’s Health. We know that men, I think it’s in the 80 percents, do not use sunscreen daily. And so we know that they are already primed for that message. And so that’s one of the reasons, as I said, that we decided to run this piece in, you know, in Men’s Health in particular.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, when you hear this, that these messages are having an impact, they’re having an impact among men in particular, and even Gen Z, I understand. You know, what goes through your mind? Does it concern you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, because, of course, we know that sunscreen is important to protect us against skin cancer and some of the effects of the sun. I treat a lot of patients with darker skin where sun is really responsible for hyperpigmentation when you’re treating pigmentary disorders. So it’s a really important tool for dermatologists, and it is concerning because it’s an unnecessary fear that we’re seeing on social media, and it’s really not based on a lot of data or science.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So what does the American Academy of Dermatologists sort of recommend when it comes to sunscreen use, or you as a doctor?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> So we recommend sunscreen, a minimum of SPF 30, ideally broad spectrum, which means UVA and UVB coverage, daily to exposed areas. And we use sunscreen for different reasons. One reason, as I mentioned, is to prevent skin cancer, especially in people who are at risk for skin cancer with lighter skin tones. And then with people with darker skin tones, we use sunscreen to help manage certain pigmentary disorders, like hyperpigmentation, uneven skin tone.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So it’s a really important tool for dermatologists, and I think it’s important that the public understands that this fear that we see online is not really based on any science.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So FDA-approved sunscreens, you would say, are safe?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the FDA has stated that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes. And so why, then, is there some power to the social media messages, Brian? Because I feel like, you know, I remember, for example, that, you know, there were concerns about oxybenzone or avobenzone, mainly that it can mess with your hormones or that it’s an endocrine disruptor and things like that. So there were things that the FDA, you know, was sort of suggesting in its messaging, there was science that was sort of suggesting — we were coming out of tests and so on. Can you just talk about where some of the believability for the messages of these influencers may have come from?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, you know, there is some data that shows that certain organic sunscreen filters do have some hormone-related effects. There was a research review, I believe in 2023, that looked at more than 200 studies and found some of that. I think, and that is the data that these anti-sunscreen creators are sort of latching onto.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I think what’s really important is that you give that data some context, and that’s what’s not happening on social media. So a lot of that data, the vast majority of that, was conducted in rodents and cell cultures and fish. And it is what Dr. Robert Nelson, who I also interviewed for this story, describes as low-relevance data. So it is really not data that you can extrapolate any conclusion from that would lead you to say that sunscreen is unsafe.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think at the same time, as you mentioned, in 2019, I believe it was, the FDA did a review of sunscreen ingredients and, you know, categorized them differently. So organic and, or chemical, sunscreen filters were Category 3, which means that the FDA was looking for more safety data because they did find that these ingredients were absorbed into the bloodstream at levels higher than what they would have liked to have seen. And I think that caused a lot of confusion.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, that 2019 study, it specifically states that the conclusion of the study should not lead anyone to not use sunscreen. So that’s very important to know. And there really is decades of data, safety data, on these ingredients from use overseas that I think the FDA is just a little sluggish to adopt as part of its monograph.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think that’s where the confusion came in, because if you’re a consumer and the FDA is telling you, “We need more safety data on these,” but they’re not pulling products from the shelf, I can see why you as a consumer or a creator would be confused by that. But I think it’s really important to understand that in its own conclusion, the FDA says, do not use this data to justify not using sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, how do you interpret what came out about oxybenzone? What do you tell your patients as well? And do you agree with what Brian is saying? The FDA and other doctors have told them, which is that this is not a reason to refrain from using sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, I totally agree with what Brian described so perfectly, which is that the information where a lot of this online interest comes from was this study that was done by the FDA. However, in that study, they concluded that — they stated that sunscreens were safe, including oxybenzone, and it shouldn’t stop people from wearing sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So in my practice, I absolutely recommend sunscreens to my patients. And I, you know, luckily in my practice, no one has really asked me so much about this. It might be more of a discussion online in certain groups of people, but it hasn’t trickled into people who I see every day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But that being said, I feel very comfortable and confident recommending sunscreens for my patients based on the data we have today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You know, the studies show that oxybenzone could be absorbed into the bloodstream. You’re saying does not mean conclusively that it causes harm?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Correct, because there’s no studies to suggest that. We have decades of research on sunscreens, like real-life human use of sunscreen, and not lab studies done on rodents and on other animals. And it is considered safe. And the FDA has stated that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So it sounds like you’re saying the greater risk really is avoiding sunscreen altogether than the ingredients that have been necessarily singled out. And then you’re talking about these other studies. What are these other studies showing in terms of effectiveness of sunscreen in preventing skin cancer?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> And actually, I just wanted to mention one other thing because we’re talking a lot about oxybenzone, but interestingly, oxybenzone is not now commonly used in sunscreen. So it used to be a very common sunscreen ingredient. It used to be seen probably in more than 90% of sunscreens, but now it’s actually less frequently used. So even though there’s a lot of discussion about it, it’s not commonly used anymore. So I did want to mention that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. An important point that, regardless of whether or not you are worried about it, probably in part because of the bad PR, regardless of the science, it is no longer in as many bottles of sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> That’s correct.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Dr. Heather Woolery-Lloyd, board-certified dermatologist, and Brian Underwood of Men’s Health, who’s written a piece called “The Anti-Sunscreen Movement Is Coming for You.” And you, our listeners, join the conversation at 866-733-6786, at the email address forum@kqed.org, or on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Do you wear sunscreen regularly, listeners? Why or why not? Have you noticed anti-sunscreen influencers in your feeds? You know, do they make you sunscreen-hesitant? Or are the messages concerning to you? Stay with us for more after the break. You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood,\u003c/strong> beauty and grooming director of \u003cem>Men’s Health\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Women’s Health\u003c/em> and writer of \u003ca href=\"https://www.menshealth.com/health/a71867310/anti-sunscreen-movement/\">“The Anti-Sunscreen Movement Is Coming for You” \u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood,\u003c/strong> beauty and grooming director of \u003cem>Men’s Health\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Women’s Health\u003c/em> and writer of \u003ca href=\"https://www.menshealth.com/health/a71867310/anti-sunscreen-movement/\">“The Anti-Sunscreen Movement Is Coming for You” \u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd,\u003c/strong> board-certified dermatologist and founder of DermFriends\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Some 16 million adults reported reducing or stopping sunscreen use, according to the American Academy of Dermatology’s 2026 Practice Safe Sun Survey, because of online claims about its safety. And a 2024 survey by the Orlando Health Cancer Institute found that one in seven adults under the age of 35 now believes that daily sunscreen use is more harmful to skin than direct sun exposure.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Some 16 million adults reported reducing or stopping sunscreen use, according to the American Academy of Dermatology’s 2026 Practice Safe Sun Survey, because of online claims about its safety. And a 2024 survey by the Orlando Health Cancer Institute found that one in seven adults under the age of 35 now believes that daily sunscreen use is more harmful to skin than direct sun exposure.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This I learned from Brian Underwood’s piece in Men’s Health last month, called “The Anti-Sunscreen Movement Is Coming for You.” In this hour, we take a closer look at the growing influence of sunscreen opponents and what impact it’s had. Underwood is Beauty and Grooming Director of Men’s Health and Women’s Health and joins me now. Brian, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This I learned from Brian Underwood’s piece in Men’s Health last month, called “The Anti-Sunscreen Movement Is Coming for You.” In this hour, we take a closer look at the growing influence of sunscreen opponents and what impact it’s had. Underwood is Beauty and Grooming Director of Men’s Health and Women’s Health and joins me now. Brian, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me, Mina.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also with us is Dr. Heather Woolery-Lloyd, board-certified dermatologist and founder of DermFriends. Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, really glad to have you with us too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also with us is Dr. Heather Woolery-Lloyd, board-certified dermatologist and founder of DermFriends. Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, really glad to have you with us too.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Brian, let me start with you. Tell me about some of these claims on social media. What are influencers saying?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Brian, let me start with you. Tell me about some of these claims on social media. What are influencers saying?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, a myriad of things, but I think that some of the researchers that looked into this have found that the number one thing that sort of anti-sunscreen creators are talking about is the toxicity of certain ingredients that they claim are in sunscreens. And this is mainly the organic filters, commonly known as chemical filters. And that is sort of the main driving argument that these creators have, is that these ingredients are somehow toxic. Some of them, you know, they claim are cancer-causing themselves. And, you know, among other things, I would say that is probably the most prevalent claim that they make on social media platforms.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, a myriad of things, but I think that some of the researchers that looked into this have found that the number one thing that sort of anti-sunscreen creators are talking about is the toxicity of certain ingredients that they claim are in sunscreens. And this is mainly the organic filters, commonly known as chemical filters. And that is sort of the main driving argument that these creators have, is that these ingredients are somehow toxic. Some of them, you know, they claim are cancer-causing themselves. And, you know, among other things, I would say that is probably the most prevalent claim that they make on social media platforms.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And how colorful shall — I always say, hey, are some of these videos or messages getting —\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, as somebody who did quite a deep dive into this topic for Men’s Health, I viewed quite a few of these videos. And obviously, you know, we’re talking about social media here. So you want to get and hold people’s attention. And the more outlandish you are in doing so, the more the algorithm is going to favor you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So you have people setting fire to spray sunscreens to create these sort of — almost look like makeshift torches from \u003cem>The Walking Dead\u003c/em> or something. But, of course, that’s really what it’s about. It’s about capturing people’s attention, and the way that these platforms prioritize that is by being as outlandish as possible.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So you have people setting fire to spray sunscreens to create these sort of — almost look like makeshift torches from \u003cem>The Walking Dead\u003c/em> or something. But, of course, that’s really what it’s about. It’s about capturing people’s attention, and the way that these platforms prioritize that is by being as outlandish as possible.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And from the stats I quoted, they are capturing people’s attention, right? These messages have been convincing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it appears that way. And that was sort of the genesis of this story. I was speaking to some of my friends at some major skin cancer nonprofits, and some of my other contacts at dermatology associations like the American Academy of Dermatology. And both of those organizations were taking sunscreen misinformation on social media platforms very seriously and have launched campaigns to combat some of it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it appears that way. And that was sort of the genesis of this story. I was speaking to some of my friends at some major skin cancer nonprofits, and some of my other contacts at dermatology associations like the American Academy of Dermatology. And both of those organizations were taking sunscreen misinformation on social media platforms very seriously and have launched campaigns to combat some of it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And that’s when I realized, that’s what it became — something that I was just seeing on my feed. That’s when it transformed into something that I thought was a bigger story. If these organizations were taking this seriously, then perhaps I, as a journalist, should be taking it seriously. And that is kind of what led me to do this story.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And that’s when I realized, that’s what it became — something that I was just seeing on my feed. That’s when it transformed into something that I thought was a bigger story. If these organizations were taking this seriously, then perhaps I, as a journalist, should be taking it seriously. And that is kind of what led me to do this story.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And which groups do you find that these messages seem to be having the most effect on right now?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And which groups do you find that these messages seem to be having the most effect on right now?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> You know, it’s hard to say, but anecdotally, from diving into this world, a lot of the creators were young men. And that’s kind of why we decided to run this story in Men’s Health. We know that men, I think it’s in the 80 percents, do not use sunscreen daily. And so we know that they are already primed for that message. And so that’s one of the reasons, as I said, that we decided to run this piece in, you know, in Men’s Health in particular.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> You know, it’s hard to say, but anecdotally, from diving into this world, a lot of the creators were young men. And that’s kind of why we decided to run this story in Men’s Health. We know that men, I think it’s in the 80 percents, do not use sunscreen daily. And so we know that they are already primed for that message. And so that’s one of the reasons, as I said, that we decided to run this piece in, you know, in Men’s Health in particular.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, when you hear this, that these messages are having an impact, they’re having an impact among men in particular, and even Gen Z, I understand. You know, what goes through your mind? Does it concern you?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, when you hear this, that these messages are having an impact, they’re having an impact among men in particular, and even Gen Z, I understand. You know, what goes through your mind? Does it concern you?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, because, of course, we know that sunscreen is important to protect us against skin cancer and some of the effects of the sun. I treat a lot of patients with darker skin where sun is really responsible for hyperpigmentation when you’re treating pigmentary disorders. So it’s a really important tool for dermatologists, and it is concerning because it’s an unnecessary fear that we’re seeing on social media, and it’s really not based on a lot of data or science.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, because, of course, we know that sunscreen is important to protect us against skin cancer and some of the effects of the sun. I treat a lot of patients with darker skin where sun is really responsible for hyperpigmentation when you’re treating pigmentary disorders. So it’s a really important tool for dermatologists, and it is concerning because it’s an unnecessary fear that we’re seeing on social media, and it’s really not based on a lot of data or science.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So what does the American Academy of Dermatologists sort of recommend when it comes to sunscreen use, or you as a doctor?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So what does the American Academy of Dermatologists sort of recommend when it comes to sunscreen use, or you as a doctor?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> So we recommend sunscreen, a minimum of SPF 30, ideally broad spectrum, which means UVA and UVB coverage, daily to exposed areas. And we use sunscreen for different reasons. One reason, as I mentioned, is to prevent skin cancer, especially in people who are at risk for skin cancer with lighter skin tones. And then with people with darker skin tones, we use sunscreen to help manage certain pigmentary disorders, like hyperpigmentation, uneven skin tone.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> So we recommend sunscreen, a minimum of SPF 30, ideally broad spectrum, which means UVA and UVB coverage, daily to exposed areas. And we use sunscreen for different reasons. One reason, as I mentioned, is to prevent skin cancer, especially in people who are at risk for skin cancer with lighter skin tones. And then with people with darker skin tones, we use sunscreen to help manage certain pigmentary disorders, like hyperpigmentation, uneven skin tone.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So it’s a really important tool for dermatologists, and I think it’s important that the public understands that this fear that we see online is not really based on any science.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So FDA-approved sunscreens, you would say, are safe?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So FDA-approved sunscreens, you would say, are safe?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the FDA has stated that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes. And so why, then, is there some power to the social media messages, Brian? Because I feel like, you know, I remember, for example, that, you know, there were concerns about oxybenzone or avobenzone, mainly that it can mess with your hormones or that it’s an endocrine disruptor and things like that. So there were things that the FDA, you know, was sort of suggesting in its messaging, there was science that was sort of suggesting — we were coming out of tests and so on. Can you just talk about where some of the believability for the messages of these influencers may have come from?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes. And so why, then, is there some power to the social media messages, Brian? Because I feel like, you know, I remember, for example, that, you know, there were concerns about oxybenzone or avobenzone, mainly that it can mess with your hormones or that it’s an endocrine disruptor and things like that. So there were things that the FDA, you know, was sort of suggesting in its messaging, there was science that was sort of suggesting — we were coming out of tests and so on. Can you just talk about where some of the believability for the messages of these influencers may have come from?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, you know, there is some data that shows that certain organic sunscreen filters do have some hormone-related effects. There was a research review, I believe in 2023, that looked at more than 200 studies and found some of that. I think, and that is the data that these anti-sunscreen creators are sort of latching onto.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I think what’s really important is that you give that data some context, and that’s what’s not happening on social media. So a lot of that data, the vast majority of that, was conducted in rodents and cell cultures and fish. And it is what Dr. Robert Nelson, who I also interviewed for this story, describes as low-relevance data. So it is really not data that you can extrapolate any conclusion from that would lead you to say that sunscreen is unsafe.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think at the same time, as you mentioned, in 2019, I believe it was, the FDA did a review of sunscreen ingredients and, you know, categorized them differently. So organic and, or chemical, sunscreen filters were Category 3, which means that the FDA was looking for more safety data because they did find that these ingredients were absorbed into the bloodstream at levels higher than what they would have liked to have seen. And I think that caused a lot of confusion.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, that 2019 study, it specifically states that the conclusion of the study should not lead anyone to not use sunscreen. So that’s very important to know. And there really is decades of data, safety data, on these ingredients from use overseas that I think the FDA is just a little sluggish to adopt as part of its monograph.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now, that 2019 study, it specifically states that the conclusion of the study should not lead anyone to not use sunscreen. So that’s very important to know. And there really is decades of data, safety data, on these ingredients from use overseas that I think the FDA is just a little sluggish to adopt as part of its monograph.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think that’s where the confusion came in, because if you’re a consumer and the FDA is telling you, “We need more safety data on these,” but they’re not pulling products from the shelf, I can see why you as a consumer or a creator would be confused by that. But I think it’s really important to understand that in its own conclusion, the FDA says, do not use this data to justify not using sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, how do you interpret what came out about oxybenzone? What do you tell your patients as well? And do you agree with what Brian is saying? The FDA and other doctors have told them, which is that this is not a reason to refrain from using sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, how do you interpret what came out about oxybenzone? What do you tell your patients as well? And do you agree with what Brian is saying? The FDA and other doctors have told them, which is that this is not a reason to refrain from using sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, I totally agree with what Brian described so perfectly, which is that the information where a lot of this online interest comes from was this study that was done by the FDA. However, in that study, they concluded that — they stated that sunscreens were safe, including oxybenzone, and it shouldn’t stop people from wearing sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So in my practice, I absolutely recommend sunscreens to my patients. And I, you know, luckily in my practice, no one has really asked me so much about this. It might be more of a discussion online in certain groups of people, but it hasn’t trickled into people who I see every day.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So in my practice, I absolutely recommend sunscreens to my patients. And I, you know, luckily in my practice, no one has really asked me so much about this. It might be more of a discussion online in certain groups of people, but it hasn’t trickled into people who I see every day.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You know, the studies show that oxybenzone could be absorbed into the bloodstream. You’re saying does not mean conclusively that it causes harm?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Correct, because there’s no studies to suggest that. We have decades of research on sunscreens, like real-life human use of sunscreen, and not lab studies done on rodents and on other animals. And it is considered safe. And the FDA has stated that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So it sounds like you’re saying the greater risk really is avoiding sunscreen altogether than the ingredients that have been necessarily singled out. And then you’re talking about these other studies. What are these other studies showing in terms of effectiveness of sunscreen in preventing skin cancer?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> And actually, I just wanted to mention one other thing because we’re talking a lot about oxybenzone, but interestingly, oxybenzone is not now commonly used in sunscreen. So it used to be a very common sunscreen ingredient. It used to be seen probably in more than 90% of sunscreens, but now it’s actually less frequently used. So even though there’s a lot of discussion about it, it’s not commonly used anymore. So I did want to mention that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> And actually, I just wanted to mention one other thing because we’re talking a lot about oxybenzone, but interestingly, oxybenzone is not now commonly used in sunscreen. So it used to be a very common sunscreen ingredient. It used to be seen probably in more than 90% of sunscreens, but now it’s actually less frequently used. So even though there’s a lot of discussion about it, it’s not commonly used anymore. So I did want to mention that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. An important point that, regardless of whether or not you are worried about it, probably in part because of the bad PR, regardless of the science, it is no longer in as many bottles of sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. An important point that, regardless of whether or not you are worried about it, probably in part because of the bad PR, regardless of the science, it is no longer in as many bottles of sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Dr. Heather Woolery-Lloyd, board-certified dermatologist, and Brian Underwood of Men’s Health, who’s written a piece called “The Anti-Sunscreen Movement Is Coming for You.” And you, our listeners, join the conversation at 866-733-6786, at the email address forum@kqed.org, or on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Do you wear sunscreen regularly, listeners? Why or why not? Have you noticed anti-sunscreen influencers in your feeds? You know, do they make you sunscreen-hesitant? Or are the messages concerning to you? Stay with us for more after the break. You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Monday, Aug. 31 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Are you still wearing sunscreen? There’s been a recent wave of viral TikToks declaring that sunscreen is “toxic,” and they’ve helped ignite an anti-sunscreen movement. With recent surveys showing that millions of Americans are cutting back on sun protection, dermatologists worry that misinformation will lead to higher rates of skin cancer and melanoma. We look at what’s driving “sunscreen hesitancy,” dig into the social media claims and hear how health providers are pushing back against misinformation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood,\u003c/strong> beauty and grooming director of \u003cem>Men’s Health\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Women’s Health\u003c/em> and writer of \u003ca href=\"https://www.menshealth.com/health/a71867310/anti-sunscreen-movement/\">“The Anti-Sunscreen Movement Is Coming for You” \u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd,\u003c/strong> board-certified dermatologist and founder of DermFriends\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Some 16 million adults reported reducing or stopping sunscreen use, according to the American Academy of Dermatology’s 2026 Practice Safe Sun Survey, because of online claims about its safety. And a 2024 survey by the Orlando Health Cancer Institute found that one in seven adults under the age of 35 now believes that daily sunscreen use is more harmful to skin than direct sun exposure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This I learned from Brian Underwood’s piece in Men’s Health last month, called “The Anti-Sunscreen Movement Is Coming for You.” In this hour, we take a closer look at the growing influence of sunscreen opponents and what impact it’s had. Underwood is Beauty and Grooming Director of Men’s Health and Women’s Health and joins me now. Brian, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me, Mina.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also with us is Dr. Heather Woolery-Lloyd, board-certified dermatologist and founder of DermFriends. Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, really glad to have you with us too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Brian, let me start with you. Tell me about some of these claims on social media. What are influencers saying?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, a myriad of things, but I think that some of the researchers that looked into this have found that the number one thing that sort of anti-sunscreen creators are talking about is the toxicity of certain ingredients that they claim are in sunscreens. And this is mainly the organic filters, commonly known as chemical filters. And that is sort of the main driving argument that these creators have, is that these ingredients are somehow toxic. Some of them, you know, they claim are cancer-causing themselves. And, you know, among other things, I would say that is probably the most prevalent claim that they make on social media platforms.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And how colorful shall — I always say, hey, are some of these videos or messages getting —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, as somebody who did quite a deep dive into this topic for Men’s Health, I viewed quite a few of these videos. And obviously, you know, we’re talking about social media here. So you want to get and hold people’s attention. And the more outlandish you are in doing so, the more the algorithm is going to favor you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So you have people setting fire to spray sunscreens to create these sort of — almost look like makeshift torches from \u003cem>The Walking Dead\u003c/em> or something. But, of course, that’s really what it’s about. It’s about capturing people’s attention, and the way that these platforms prioritize that is by being as outlandish as possible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And from the stats I quoted, they are capturing people’s attention, right? These messages have been convincing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it appears that way. And that was sort of the genesis of this story. I was speaking to some of my friends at some major skin cancer nonprofits, and some of my other contacts at dermatology associations like the American Academy of Dermatology. And both of those organizations were taking sunscreen misinformation on social media platforms very seriously and have launched campaigns to combat some of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that’s when I realized, that’s what it became — something that I was just seeing on my feed. That’s when it transformed into something that I thought was a bigger story. If these organizations were taking this seriously, then perhaps I, as a journalist, should be taking it seriously. And that is kind of what led me to do this story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And which groups do you find that these messages seem to be having the most effect on right now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> You know, it’s hard to say, but anecdotally, from diving into this world, a lot of the creators were young men. And that’s kind of why we decided to run this story in Men’s Health. We know that men, I think it’s in the 80 percents, do not use sunscreen daily. And so we know that they are already primed for that message. And so that’s one of the reasons, as I said, that we decided to run this piece in, you know, in Men’s Health in particular.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, when you hear this, that these messages are having an impact, they’re having an impact among men in particular, and even Gen Z, I understand. You know, what goes through your mind? Does it concern you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, because, of course, we know that sunscreen is important to protect us against skin cancer and some of the effects of the sun. I treat a lot of patients with darker skin where sun is really responsible for hyperpigmentation when you’re treating pigmentary disorders. So it’s a really important tool for dermatologists, and it is concerning because it’s an unnecessary fear that we’re seeing on social media, and it’s really not based on a lot of data or science.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So what does the American Academy of Dermatologists sort of recommend when it comes to sunscreen use, or you as a doctor?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> So we recommend sunscreen, a minimum of SPF 30, ideally broad spectrum, which means UVA and UVB coverage, daily to exposed areas. And we use sunscreen for different reasons. One reason, as I mentioned, is to prevent skin cancer, especially in people who are at risk for skin cancer with lighter skin tones. And then with people with darker skin tones, we use sunscreen to help manage certain pigmentary disorders, like hyperpigmentation, uneven skin tone.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So it’s a really important tool for dermatologists, and I think it’s important that the public understands that this fear that we see online is not really based on any science.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So FDA-approved sunscreens, you would say, are safe?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the FDA has stated that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes. And so why, then, is there some power to the social media messages, Brian? Because I feel like, you know, I remember, for example, that, you know, there were concerns about oxybenzone or avobenzone, mainly that it can mess with your hormones or that it’s an endocrine disruptor and things like that. So there were things that the FDA, you know, was sort of suggesting in its messaging, there was science that was sort of suggesting — we were coming out of tests and so on. Can you just talk about where some of the believability for the messages of these influencers may have come from?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, you know, there is some data that shows that certain organic sunscreen filters do have some hormone-related effects. There was a research review, I believe in 2023, that looked at more than 200 studies and found some of that. I think, and that is the data that these anti-sunscreen creators are sort of latching onto.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I think what’s really important is that you give that data some context, and that’s what’s not happening on social media. So a lot of that data, the vast majority of that, was conducted in rodents and cell cultures and fish. And it is what Dr. Robert Nelson, who I also interviewed for this story, describes as low-relevance data. So it is really not data that you can extrapolate any conclusion from that would lead you to say that sunscreen is unsafe.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think at the same time, as you mentioned, in 2019, I believe it was, the FDA did a review of sunscreen ingredients and, you know, categorized them differently. So organic and, or chemical, sunscreen filters were Category 3, which means that the FDA was looking for more safety data because they did find that these ingredients were absorbed into the bloodstream at levels higher than what they would have liked to have seen. And I think that caused a lot of confusion.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, that 2019 study, it specifically states that the conclusion of the study should not lead anyone to not use sunscreen. So that’s very important to know. And there really is decades of data, safety data, on these ingredients from use overseas that I think the FDA is just a little sluggish to adopt as part of its monograph.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think that’s where the confusion came in, because if you’re a consumer and the FDA is telling you, “We need more safety data on these,” but they’re not pulling products from the shelf, I can see why you as a consumer or a creator would be confused by that. But I think it’s really important to understand that in its own conclusion, the FDA says, do not use this data to justify not using sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, how do you interpret what came out about oxybenzone? What do you tell your patients as well? And do you agree with what Brian is saying? The FDA and other doctors have told them, which is that this is not a reason to refrain from using sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, I totally agree with what Brian described so perfectly, which is that the information where a lot of this online interest comes from was this study that was done by the FDA. However, in that study, they concluded that — they stated that sunscreens were safe, including oxybenzone, and it shouldn’t stop people from wearing sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So in my practice, I absolutely recommend sunscreens to my patients. And I, you know, luckily in my practice, no one has really asked me so much about this. It might be more of a discussion online in certain groups of people, but it hasn’t trickled into people who I see every day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But that being said, I feel very comfortable and confident recommending sunscreens for my patients based on the data we have today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You know, the studies show that oxybenzone could be absorbed into the bloodstream. You’re saying does not mean conclusively that it causes harm?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Correct, because there’s no studies to suggest that. We have decades of research on sunscreens, like real-life human use of sunscreen, and not lab studies done on rodents and on other animals. And it is considered safe. And the FDA has stated that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So it sounds like you’re saying the greater risk really is avoiding sunscreen altogether than the ingredients that have been necessarily singled out. And then you’re talking about these other studies. What are these other studies showing in terms of effectiveness of sunscreen in preventing skin cancer?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> And actually, I just wanted to mention one other thing because we’re talking a lot about oxybenzone, but interestingly, oxybenzone is not now commonly used in sunscreen. So it used to be a very common sunscreen ingredient. It used to be seen probably in more than 90% of sunscreens, but now it’s actually less frequently used. So even though there’s a lot of discussion about it, it’s not commonly used anymore. So I did want to mention that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. An important point that, regardless of whether or not you are worried about it, probably in part because of the bad PR, regardless of the science, it is no longer in as many bottles of sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> That’s correct.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Dr. Heather Woolery-Lloyd, board-certified dermatologist, and Brian Underwood of Men’s Health, who’s written a piece called “The Anti-Sunscreen Movement Is Coming for You.” And you, our listeners, join the conversation at 866-733-6786, at the email address forum@kqed.org, or on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Do you wear sunscreen regularly, listeners? Why or why not? Have you noticed anti-sunscreen influencers in your feeds? You know, do they make you sunscreen-hesitant? Or are the messages concerning to you? Stay with us for more after the break. You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Wednesday, August 26, 2026 at 10 am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A uniquely and universally beloved musician and philanthropist, Dolly Parton died Tuesday at 80. One of country music’s most celebrated performers, her signature songs including “Jolene” and “I Will Always Love You” resonated across generations. We talk to Parton biographers about the singer’s life and legacy, and what made her such a distinct American icon. What did Dolly Parton mean to you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann,\u003c/strong> author, \u003cem>Dolly Parton, Songteller: My Life in Lyrics\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Lydia Hamessley\u003c/strong>, professor of music at Hamilton College; author, \u003cem>Unlikely Angel: The Songs of Dolly Parton\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Dolly Parton’s Jolene\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jacob Stensberg\u003c/strong>, artistic director & conductor, San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. The Times headline announcing Dolly Parton’s death called her simply “superstar” because she was more than a chart-topping country music singer, movie star, entrepreneur and philanthropist. Dolly Parton was a legend. And from San Francisco’s Castro to the halls of D.C., she made people of different genders, races and political affiliations feel embraced.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Dolly Parton would say, and did more than once on NPR and public media, that she was mainly a songwriter. Here she is with Kermit the Frog in 1987.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dolly Parton:\u003c/strong> Folks sometimes forget that we’re just everyday people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kermit the Frog:\u003c/strong> Yeah, yeah. You want to talk about it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dolly Parton:\u003c/strong> Not really.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kermit the Frog:\u003c/strong> You wanna sing about it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dolly Parton:\u003c/strong> Well, I’d love to, Kermit, but I have a frog in my throat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Dolly Parton’s death at the age of 80 was announced yesterday, and listeners tell us: What did Dolly Parton mean to you? The number is 866-733-6786. The email address is \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, and you can find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram. We’re at KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Joining me this hour, Robert K. Oermann, author of \u003cem>Dolly Parton, Songteller: My Life in Lyrics\u003c/em>. Robert, really glad to have you with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Good to be here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Lydia Hamessley is also with us, professor of music at Hamilton College and author of \u003cem>Unlikely Angel: The Songs of Dolly Parton\u003c/em>. Lydia, really appreciate you being with us, too. Thank you very much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Jacob Stensberg, artistic director and conductor of the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus. Jacob, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. Thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, Robert, you wrote, as I mentioned, \u003cem>Songteller\u003c/em>. Tell me, what was your reaction to receiving news of her death?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> Oh, God, it was the worst day of my life. Several people called and asked me, “Was it a hoax?” You know, because there’s so much misinformation out there, and nobody wants to believe that there’s a world without Dolly Parton in it, including me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it was devastating, but I didn’t have time to think. CNN called and all, you know, NBC and ABC and CBS. I mean, just had a — I never had time to grieve. I never had time to cry, and I still want to cry. I still haven’t had time. I have never wept over a celebrity’s death before, but this one is the worst.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, I so appreciate you being here to share that, given what you just shared. And also, just the point that you made that nobody wants to imagine a world without Dolly Parton. Why is that, do you think, Robert?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> The one thing that they left out in their introduction about her, you know, philanthropist and musician, star and movie star — how about best dang human being ever? She touched people in profound ways with her life and her music. Yes, a luminous superstar, a great music talent, but above that, a great humanitarian and a person who gave empathy to the world. She gave compassion and understanding and love. And that is the legacy. We should all carry that forward.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Lydia, you know, similar question that we’re asking Robert and also our audience, but what did Dolly Parton mean to you? You wrote so deeply about her songs, her lyrics.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Hamessley:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Well, I had a similar experience as Robert did with assuming it was a hoax, but what she meant to me was just — it was even hard to describe.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, I titled my book \u003cem>Unlikely Angel\u003c/em>, partly because people think of her as an angel a lot. She often played angels. She wrote a song called “Unlikely Angels.” But to me, in my life, she was also an unlikely angel. I hadn’t expected to fall in love with her in the way that I did.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And just so much joy in her music and modeling of what it might be to be a good human being in the world with, as Robert said, the kindness and empathy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And as he said, I had just sat down to dinner. I’m in Germany right now, so it was evening, 8:30 p.m. I just sat down, had my phone out to kill time before my food came, and there it was. And I thought, “No, no, that can’t be right.” And I started texting my friends back in the States. And then someone posted immediately the New York Times obituary. And I just choked up and started blubbering. And I thought, “I’m a woman alone at a table in Germany. I don’t really think I should just be crying here. That might look weird,” you know? So I just kept breathing and I ate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then, like Robert, I got back to my room and couldn’t cry because I had my phone blew up, this thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And actually, we’re going to see, Lydia, if we can get you on a slightly better line because your phone being in Germany is making a bit of a clicking sound, but we’ll see if we can try to figure that out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the meantime, Jacob, the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus just did a tribute concert to Dolly in June. Talk about why — why Dolly Parton in particular, what she means to you and the chorus.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacob Stensberg:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Yeah, last Pride, Dolly was our muse for the entire Pride season here in San Francisco in the Bay Area, and I was so eager to program a concert completely from her songbook and songwriting, because I discovered that much of our membership, especially the younger generations, knew more about Dolly’s activism and sort of her ethos and the way she made them feel, but didn’t necessarily know all of her incredible music.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so it was amazing to watch singers take some of her songs, which were incredibly autobiographical, and find so much identity and connection with them, feeling like they were singing about their own experiences and not necessarily just hers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, your lineup included “Travelin’ Thru” and “Coat of Many Colors,” as I understand it. Talk about those songs in particular. “Coat of Many Colors,” in particular, has been described as a queer anthem by some. What makes those songs particularly meaningful, Jacob?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacob Stensberg:\u003c/strong> You know, she has a way of writing these incredible lyrics that can be both hyper-specific to a moment in time, but also universal. And both of those songs that maybe are about, in a really broad sense, going from dark to light or hardship to the other side of that catharsis or healing — especially in a time when all communities, but especially the queer community, is seeking catharsis, healing and joy — singing about those experiences that are both honest but have kind of a happy ending, I think mean a lot to us right now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That was “Coat of Many Colors.” We’re talking right now with Jacob Stensberg, artistic director and conductor of the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus; Lydia Hamessley, a professor of music at Hamilton College who wrote \u003cem>Unlikely Angel: The Songs of Dolly Parton\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Dolly Parton’s Jolene\u003c/em>; and Robert K. Oermann, co-author with Dolly Parton of \u003cem>Songteller: My Life in Lyrics\u003c/em>. And you, our listeners, are joining the conversation with your reflections and memories.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Corey writes, “I’m a columnist at the Sydney Morning Herald and just published a piece about her. My argument in the piece is that Dolly built a congregation around the idea of American individualism done right. She was completely herself and carefully avoided defining anyone else, but gave them permission to be whoever they could be. In doing that, she created one of the last places in American life where people could be different together.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Robert, I’m so struck by the choice of the word “Songteller” to describe Dolly Parton for your book. Why “Songteller” as opposed to, say, “songwriter”?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> First of all, I’m not the author. I am the co-author. Dolly and I wrote that together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That’s right, you co-wrote it together, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> We spent days and days together working on that book, and it was Dolly’s idea to call it \u003cem>Songteller\u003c/em>. It was completely her idea. I had mentioned to her that Tom T. Hall was a big, huge country music influence on me, and that he was called the storyteller, and he was a great songwriter as well. She thought, “If he’s the storyteller, then I’m the Songteller.” And she’s also named her downtown Nashville hotel the Songteller Hotel. And it will open this fall, sadly without her.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes. What were the types of stories, Lydia, that Dolly would like to tell through her songs that you noticed by looking so deeply at them?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Hamessley:\u003c/strong> Well, there are several kind of categories. One of them is the uplifting, very much hope and joy and optimism. So there are many of those kinds of songs where she really thinks there’s one better [world] to get to live in, you know, and don’t complain. Like, if you want things to be different, do it, make it different.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So she has a lot of those, but then she can go the other way and write songs that she would have called “sad-ass songs,” and those are the ones that are the dead-baby songs, you know. I think of one called “Evening Shade,” which is just a horror of orphans being mistreated, and they all band together and burn down the orphanage with the evil matron in it. And her last line in that is, “Evening Shade was burning just like the—” It was, you know.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So she could go from the sublime to the morose to everything in between, and yet in each of those categories you can find 10, 20, 30 songs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So she has these kind of tropes that she kept revisiting, and in fact, in the book I had to try to figure out, how am I going to talk about all these songs? I can’t do it chronologically. That seemed haphazard. I did it by topic because she revisits these things over the course of a career.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So she might have a song about the dead babies in the ’70s and then another in the ’90s and another, you know, a couple years later. So she’s got these kind of clumps of, for want of a better word, of ideas.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And one thing that she said, especially, I think, about the really sad songs, is that she can tell stories for other people who can’t tell their own stories.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And she really took that role very seriously, didn’t she?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Hamessley:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. She felt that that could empower people who didn’t have a voice or, as she said, the gift of rhyme or being able to write a song.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re remembering Dolly Parton this hour with Lydia Hamessley, professor of music at Hamilton College; Robert K. Oermann, co-author with Dolly Parton of \u003cem>Songteller\u003c/em>; and Jacob Stensberg of the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus, and with you, our listeners. Stay with us. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. The Times headline announcing Dolly Parton’s death called her simply “superstar” because she was more than a chart-topping country music singer, movie star, entrepreneur and philanthropist. Dolly Parton was a legend. And from San Francisco’s Castro to the halls of D.C., she made people of different genders, races and political affiliations feel embraced.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. The Times headline announcing Dolly Parton’s death called her simply “superstar” because she was more than a chart-topping country music singer, movie star, entrepreneur and philanthropist. Dolly Parton was a legend. And from San Francisco’s Castro to the halls of D.C., she made people of different genders, races and political affiliations feel embraced.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Dolly Parton’s death at the age of 80 was announced yesterday, and listeners tell us: What did Dolly Parton mean to you? The number is 866-733-6786. The email address is \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, and you can find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram. We’re at KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Joining me this hour, Robert K. Oermann, author of \u003cem>Dolly Parton, Songteller: My Life in Lyrics\u003c/em>. Robert, really glad to have you with us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Lydia Hamessley is also with us, professor of music at Hamilton College and author of \u003cem>Unlikely Angel: The Songs of Dolly Parton\u003c/em>. Lydia, really appreciate you being with us, too. Thank you very much.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Lydia Hamessley is also with us, professor of music at Hamilton College and author of \u003cem>Unlikely Angel: The Songs of Dolly Parton\u003c/em>. Lydia, really appreciate you being with us, too. Thank you very much.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And Jacob Stensberg, artistic director and conductor of the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus. Jacob, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. Thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And Jacob Stensberg, artistic director and conductor of the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus. Jacob, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. Thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, Robert, you wrote, as I mentioned, \u003cem>Songteller\u003c/em>. Tell me, what was your reaction to receiving news of her death?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, Robert, you wrote, as I mentioned, \u003cem>Songteller\u003c/em>. Tell me, what was your reaction to receiving news of her death?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> Oh, God, it was the worst day of my life. Several people called and asked me, “Was it a hoax?” You know, because there’s so much misinformation out there, and nobody wants to believe that there’s a world without Dolly Parton in it, including me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> Oh, God, it was the worst day of my life. Several people called and asked me, “Was it a hoax?” You know, because there’s so much misinformation out there, and nobody wants to believe that there’s a world without Dolly Parton in it, including me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it was devastating, but I didn’t have time to think. CNN called and all, you know, NBC and ABC and CBS. I mean, just had a — I never had time to grieve. I never had time to cry, and I still want to cry. I still haven’t had time. I have never wept over a celebrity’s death before, but this one is the worst.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And it was devastating, but I didn’t have time to think. CNN called and all, you know, NBC and ABC and CBS. I mean, just had a — I never had time to grieve. I never had time to cry, and I still want to cry. I still haven’t had time. I have never wept over a celebrity’s death before, but this one is the worst.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, I so appreciate you being here to share that, given what you just shared. And also, just the point that you made that nobody wants to imagine a world without Dolly Parton. Why is that, do you think, Robert?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, I so appreciate you being here to share that, given what you just shared. And also, just the point that you made that nobody wants to imagine a world without Dolly Parton. Why is that, do you think, Robert?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> The one thing that they left out in their introduction about her, you know, philanthropist and musician, star and movie star — how about best dang human being ever? She touched people in profound ways with her life and her music. Yes, a luminous superstar, a great music talent, but above that, a great humanitarian and a person who gave empathy to the world. She gave compassion and understanding and love. And that is the legacy. We should all carry that forward.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> The one thing that they left out in their introduction about her, you know, philanthropist and musician, star and movie star — how about best dang human being ever? She touched people in profound ways with her life and her music. Yes, a luminous superstar, a great music talent, but above that, a great humanitarian and a person who gave empathy to the world. She gave compassion and understanding and love. And that is the legacy. We should all carry that forward.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Lydia, you know, similar question that we’re asking Robert and also our audience, but what did Dolly Parton mean to you? You wrote so deeply about her songs, her lyrics.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Lydia, you know, similar question that we’re asking Robert and also our audience, but what did Dolly Parton mean to you? You wrote so deeply about her songs, her lyrics.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Hamessley:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Well, I had a similar experience as Robert did with assuming it was a hoax, but what she meant to me was just — it was even hard to describe.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Hamessley:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Well, I had a similar experience as Robert did with assuming it was a hoax, but what she meant to me was just — it was even hard to describe.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, I titled my book \u003cem>Unlikely Angel\u003c/em>, partly because people think of her as an angel a lot. She often played angels. She wrote a song called “Unlikely Angels.” But to me, in my life, she was also an unlikely angel. I hadn’t expected to fall in love with her in the way that I did.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, I titled my book \u003cem>Unlikely Angel\u003c/em>, partly because people think of her as an angel a lot. She often played angels. She wrote a song called “Unlikely Angels.” But to me, in my life, she was also an unlikely angel. I hadn’t expected to fall in love with her in the way that I did.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And just so much joy in her music and modeling of what it might be to be a good human being in the world with, as Robert said, the kindness and empathy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And just so much joy in her music and modeling of what it might be to be a good human being in the world with, as Robert said, the kindness and empathy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And as he said, I had just sat down to dinner. I’m in Germany right now, so it was evening, 8:30 p.m. I just sat down, had my phone out to kill time before my food came, and there it was. And I thought, “No, no, that can’t be right.” And I started texting my friends back in the States. And then someone posted immediately the New York Times obituary. And I just choked up and started blubbering. And I thought, “I’m a woman alone at a table in Germany. I don’t really think I should just be crying here. That might look weird,” you know? So I just kept breathing and I ate.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And as he said, I had just sat down to dinner. I’m in Germany right now, so it was evening, 8:30 p.m. I just sat down, had my phone out to kill time before my food came, and there it was. And I thought, “No, no, that can’t be right.” And I started texting my friends back in the States. And then someone posted immediately the New York Times obituary. And I just choked up and started blubbering. And I thought, “I’m a woman alone at a table in Germany. I don’t really think I should just be crying here. That might look weird,” you know? So I just kept breathing and I ate.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then, like Robert, I got back to my room and couldn’t cry because I had my phone blew up, this thing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then, like Robert, I got back to my room and couldn’t cry because I had my phone blew up, this thing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And actually, we’re going to see, Lydia, if we can get you on a slightly better line because your phone being in Germany is making a bit of a clicking sound, but we’ll see if we can try to figure that out.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And actually, we’re going to see, Lydia, if we can get you on a slightly better line because your phone being in Germany is making a bit of a clicking sound, but we’ll see if we can try to figure that out.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In the meantime, Jacob, the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus just did a tribute concert to Dolly in June. Talk about why — why Dolly Parton in particular, what she means to you and the chorus.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In the meantime, Jacob, the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus just did a tribute concert to Dolly in June. Talk about why — why Dolly Parton in particular, what she means to you and the chorus.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacob Stensberg:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Yeah, last Pride, Dolly was our muse for the entire Pride season here in San Francisco in the Bay Area, and I was so eager to program a concert completely from her songbook and songwriting, because I discovered that much of our membership, especially the younger generations, knew more about Dolly’s activism and sort of her ethos and the way she made them feel, but didn’t necessarily know all of her incredible music.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacob Stensberg:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Yeah, last Pride, Dolly was our muse for the entire Pride season here in San Francisco in the Bay Area, and I was so eager to program a concert completely from her songbook and songwriting, because I discovered that much of our membership, especially the younger generations, knew more about Dolly’s activism and sort of her ethos and the way she made them feel, but didn’t necessarily know all of her incredible music.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so it was amazing to watch singers take some of her songs, which were incredibly autobiographical, and find so much identity and connection with them, feeling like they were singing about their own experiences and not necessarily just hers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so it was amazing to watch singers take some of her songs, which were incredibly autobiographical, and find so much identity and connection with them, feeling like they were singing about their own experiences and not necessarily just hers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, your lineup included “Travelin’ Thru” and “Coat of Many Colors,” as I understand it. Talk about those songs in particular. “Coat of Many Colors,” in particular, has been described as a queer anthem by some. What makes those songs particularly meaningful, Jacob?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, your lineup included “Travelin’ Thru” and “Coat of Many Colors,” as I understand it. Talk about those songs in particular. “Coat of Many Colors,” in particular, has been described as a queer anthem by some. What makes those songs particularly meaningful, Jacob?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacob Stensberg:\u003c/strong> You know, she has a way of writing these incredible lyrics that can be both hyper-specific to a moment in time, but also universal. And both of those songs that maybe are about, in a really broad sense, going from dark to light or hardship to the other side of that catharsis or healing — especially in a time when all communities, but especially the queer community, is seeking catharsis, healing and joy — singing about those experiences that are both honest but have kind of a happy ending, I think mean a lot to us right now. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacob Stensberg:\u003c/strong> You know, she has a way of writing these incredible lyrics that can be both hyper-specific to a moment in time, but also universal. And both of those songs that maybe are about, in a really broad sense, going from dark to light or hardship to the other side of that catharsis or healing — especially in a time when all communities, but especially the queer community, is seeking catharsis, healing and joy — singing about those experiences that are both honest but have kind of a happy ending, I think mean a lot to us right now. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That was “Coat of Many Colors.” We’re talking right now with Jacob Stensberg, artistic director and conductor of the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus; Lydia Hamessley, a professor of music at Hamilton College who wrote \u003cem>Unlikely Angel: The Songs of Dolly Parton\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Dolly Parton’s Jolene\u003c/em>; and Robert K. Oermann, co-author with Dolly Parton of \u003cem>Songteller: My Life in Lyrics\u003c/em>. And you, our listeners, are joining the conversation with your reflections and memories.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That was “Coat of Many Colors.” We’re talking right now with Jacob Stensberg, artistic director and conductor of the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus; Lydia Hamessley, a professor of music at Hamilton College who wrote \u003cem>Unlikely Angel: The Songs of Dolly Parton\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Dolly Parton’s Jolene\u003c/em>; and Robert K. Oermann, co-author with Dolly Parton of \u003cem>Songteller: My Life in Lyrics\u003c/em>. And you, our listeners, are joining the conversation with your reflections and memories.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Corey writes, “I’m a columnist at the Sydney Morning Herald and just published a piece about her. My argument in the piece is that Dolly built a congregation around the idea of American individualism done right. She was completely herself and carefully avoided defining anyone else, but gave them permission to be whoever they could be. In doing that, she created one of the last places in American life where people could be different together.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Corey writes, “I’m a columnist at the Sydney Morning Herald and just published a piece about her. My argument in the piece is that Dolly built a congregation around the idea of American individualism done right. She was completely herself and carefully avoided defining anyone else, but gave them permission to be whoever they could be. In doing that, she created one of the last places in American life where people could be different together.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Robert, I’m so struck by the choice of the word “Songteller” to describe Dolly Parton for your book. Why “Songteller” as opposed to, say, “songwriter”?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Robert, I’m so struck by the choice of the word “Songteller” to describe Dolly Parton for your book. Why “Songteller” as opposed to, say, “songwriter”?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> First of all, I’m not the author. I am the co-author. Dolly and I wrote that together.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> First of all, I’m not the author. I am the co-author. Dolly and I wrote that together.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That’s right, you co-wrote it together, yeah.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That’s right, you co-wrote it together, yeah.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> We spent days and days together working on that book, and it was Dolly’s idea to call it \u003cem>Songteller\u003c/em>. It was completely her idea. I had mentioned to her that Tom T. Hall was a big, huge country music influence on me, and that he was called the storyteller, and he was a great songwriter as well. She thought, “If he’s the storyteller, then I’m the Songteller.” And she’s also named her downtown Nashville hotel the Songteller Hotel. And it will open this fall, sadly without her.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> We spent days and days together working on that book, and it was Dolly’s idea to call it \u003cem>Songteller\u003c/em>. It was completely her idea. I had mentioned to her that Tom T. Hall was a big, huge country music influence on me, and that he was called the storyteller, and he was a great songwriter as well. She thought, “If he’s the storyteller, then I’m the Songteller.” And she’s also named her downtown Nashville hotel the Songteller Hotel. And it will open this fall, sadly without her.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes. What were the types of stories, Lydia, that Dolly would like to tell through her songs that you noticed by looking so deeply at them?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes. What were the types of stories, Lydia, that Dolly would like to tell through her songs that you noticed by looking so deeply at them?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Hamessley:\u003c/strong> Well, there are several kind of categories. One of them is the uplifting, very much hope and joy and optimism. So there are many of those kinds of songs where she really thinks there’s one better [world] to get to live in, you know, and don’t complain. Like, if you want things to be different, do it, make it different.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Hamessley:\u003c/strong> Well, there are several kind of categories. One of them is the uplifting, very much hope and joy and optimism. So there are many of those kinds of songs where she really thinks there’s one better [world] to get to live in, you know, and don’t complain. Like, if you want things to be different, do it, make it different.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So she has a lot of those, but then she can go the other way and write songs that she would have called “sad-ass songs,” and those are the ones that are the dead-baby songs, you know. I think of one called “Evening Shade,” which is just a horror of orphans being mistreated, and they all band together and burn down the orphanage with the evil matron in it. And her last line in that is, “Evening Shade was burning just like the—” It was, you know.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So she has a lot of those, but then she can go the other way and write songs that she would have called “sad-ass songs,” and those are the ones that are the dead-baby songs, you know. I think of one called “Evening Shade,” which is just a horror of orphans being mistreated, and they all band together and burn down the orphanage with the evil matron in it. And her last line in that is, “Evening Shade was burning just like the—” It was, you know.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So she could go from the sublime to the morose to everything in between, and yet in each of those categories you can find 10, 20, 30 songs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So she has these kind of tropes that she kept revisiting, and in fact, in the book I had to try to figure out, how am I going to talk about all these songs? I can’t do it chronologically. That seemed haphazard. I did it by topic because she revisits these things over the course of a career.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So she has these kind of tropes that she kept revisiting, and in fact, in the book I had to try to figure out, how am I going to talk about all these songs? I can’t do it chronologically. That seemed haphazard. I did it by topic because she revisits these things over the course of a career.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So she might have a song about the dead babies in the ’70s and then another in the ’90s and another, you know, a couple years later. So she’s got these kind of clumps of, for want of a better word, of ideas.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So she might have a song about the dead babies in the ’70s and then another in the ’90s and another, you know, a couple years later. So she’s got these kind of clumps of, for want of a better word, of ideas.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And one thing that she said, especially, I think, about the really sad songs, is that she can tell stories for other people who can’t tell their own stories.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And she really took that role very seriously, didn’t she?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Hamessley:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. She felt that that could empower people who didn’t have a voice or, as she said, the gift of rhyme or being able to write a song.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re remembering Dolly Parton this hour with Lydia Hamessley, professor of music at Hamilton College; Robert K. Oermann, co-author with Dolly Parton of \u003cem>Songteller\u003c/em>; and Jacob Stensberg of the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus, and with you, our listeners. Stay with us. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Wednesday, August 26, 2026 at 10 am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A uniquely and universally beloved musician and philanthropist, Dolly Parton died Tuesday at 80. One of country music’s most celebrated performers, her signature songs including “Jolene” and “I Will Always Love You” resonated across generations. We talk to Parton biographers about the singer’s life and legacy, and what made her such a distinct American icon. What did Dolly Parton mean to you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann,\u003c/strong> author, \u003cem>Dolly Parton, Songteller: My Life in Lyrics\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Lydia Hamessley\u003c/strong>, professor of music at Hamilton College; author, \u003cem>Unlikely Angel: The Songs of Dolly Parton\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Dolly Parton’s Jolene\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jacob Stensberg\u003c/strong>, artistic director & conductor, San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. The Times headline announcing Dolly Parton’s death called her simply “superstar” because she was more than a chart-topping country music singer, movie star, entrepreneur and philanthropist. Dolly Parton was a legend. And from San Francisco’s Castro to the halls of D.C., she made people of different genders, races and political affiliations feel embraced.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Dolly Parton would say, and did more than once on NPR and public media, that she was mainly a songwriter. Here she is with Kermit the Frog in 1987.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dolly Parton:\u003c/strong> Folks sometimes forget that we’re just everyday people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kermit the Frog:\u003c/strong> Yeah, yeah. You want to talk about it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dolly Parton:\u003c/strong> Not really.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kermit the Frog:\u003c/strong> You wanna sing about it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dolly Parton:\u003c/strong> Well, I’d love to, Kermit, but I have a frog in my throat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Dolly Parton’s death at the age of 80 was announced yesterday, and listeners tell us: What did Dolly Parton mean to you? The number is 866-733-6786. The email address is \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, and you can find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram. We’re at KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Joining me this hour, Robert K. Oermann, author of \u003cem>Dolly Parton, Songteller: My Life in Lyrics\u003c/em>. Robert, really glad to have you with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Good to be here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Lydia Hamessley is also with us, professor of music at Hamilton College and author of \u003cem>Unlikely Angel: The Songs of Dolly Parton\u003c/em>. Lydia, really appreciate you being with us, too. Thank you very much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Jacob Stensberg, artistic director and conductor of the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus. Jacob, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. Thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, Robert, you wrote, as I mentioned, \u003cem>Songteller\u003c/em>. Tell me, what was your reaction to receiving news of her death?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> Oh, God, it was the worst day of my life. Several people called and asked me, “Was it a hoax?” You know, because there’s so much misinformation out there, and nobody wants to believe that there’s a world without Dolly Parton in it, including me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it was devastating, but I didn’t have time to think. CNN called and all, you know, NBC and ABC and CBS. I mean, just had a — I never had time to grieve. I never had time to cry, and I still want to cry. I still haven’t had time. I have never wept over a celebrity’s death before, but this one is the worst.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, I so appreciate you being here to share that, given what you just shared. And also, just the point that you made that nobody wants to imagine a world without Dolly Parton. Why is that, do you think, Robert?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> The one thing that they left out in their introduction about her, you know, philanthropist and musician, star and movie star — how about best dang human being ever? She touched people in profound ways with her life and her music. Yes, a luminous superstar, a great music talent, but above that, a great humanitarian and a person who gave empathy to the world. She gave compassion and understanding and love. And that is the legacy. We should all carry that forward.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Lydia, you know, similar question that we’re asking Robert and also our audience, but what did Dolly Parton mean to you? You wrote so deeply about her songs, her lyrics.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Hamessley:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Well, I had a similar experience as Robert did with assuming it was a hoax, but what she meant to me was just — it was even hard to describe.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, I titled my book \u003cem>Unlikely Angel\u003c/em>, partly because people think of her as an angel a lot. She often played angels. She wrote a song called “Unlikely Angels.” But to me, in my life, she was also an unlikely angel. I hadn’t expected to fall in love with her in the way that I did.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And just so much joy in her music and modeling of what it might be to be a good human being in the world with, as Robert said, the kindness and empathy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And as he said, I had just sat down to dinner. I’m in Germany right now, so it was evening, 8:30 p.m. I just sat down, had my phone out to kill time before my food came, and there it was. And I thought, “No, no, that can’t be right.” And I started texting my friends back in the States. And then someone posted immediately the New York Times obituary. And I just choked up and started blubbering. And I thought, “I’m a woman alone at a table in Germany. I don’t really think I should just be crying here. That might look weird,” you know? So I just kept breathing and I ate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then, like Robert, I got back to my room and couldn’t cry because I had my phone blew up, this thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And actually, we’re going to see, Lydia, if we can get you on a slightly better line because your phone being in Germany is making a bit of a clicking sound, but we’ll see if we can try to figure that out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the meantime, Jacob, the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus just did a tribute concert to Dolly in June. Talk about why — why Dolly Parton in particular, what she means to you and the chorus.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacob Stensberg:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Yeah, last Pride, Dolly was our muse for the entire Pride season here in San Francisco in the Bay Area, and I was so eager to program a concert completely from her songbook and songwriting, because I discovered that much of our membership, especially the younger generations, knew more about Dolly’s activism and sort of her ethos and the way she made them feel, but didn’t necessarily know all of her incredible music.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so it was amazing to watch singers take some of her songs, which were incredibly autobiographical, and find so much identity and connection with them, feeling like they were singing about their own experiences and not necessarily just hers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, your lineup included “Travelin’ Thru” and “Coat of Many Colors,” as I understand it. Talk about those songs in particular. “Coat of Many Colors,” in particular, has been described as a queer anthem by some. What makes those songs particularly meaningful, Jacob?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacob Stensberg:\u003c/strong> You know, she has a way of writing these incredible lyrics that can be both hyper-specific to a moment in time, but also universal. And both of those songs that maybe are about, in a really broad sense, going from dark to light or hardship to the other side of that catharsis or healing — especially in a time when all communities, but especially the queer community, is seeking catharsis, healing and joy — singing about those experiences that are both honest but have kind of a happy ending, I think mean a lot to us right now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That was “Coat of Many Colors.” We’re talking right now with Jacob Stensberg, artistic director and conductor of the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus; Lydia Hamessley, a professor of music at Hamilton College who wrote \u003cem>Unlikely Angel: The Songs of Dolly Parton\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Dolly Parton’s Jolene\u003c/em>; and Robert K. Oermann, co-author with Dolly Parton of \u003cem>Songteller: My Life in Lyrics\u003c/em>. And you, our listeners, are joining the conversation with your reflections and memories.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Corey writes, “I’m a columnist at the Sydney Morning Herald and just published a piece about her. My argument in the piece is that Dolly built a congregation around the idea of American individualism done right. She was completely herself and carefully avoided defining anyone else, but gave them permission to be whoever they could be. In doing that, she created one of the last places in American life where people could be different together.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Robert, I’m so struck by the choice of the word “Songteller” to describe Dolly Parton for your book. Why “Songteller” as opposed to, say, “songwriter”?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> First of all, I’m not the author. I am the co-author. Dolly and I wrote that together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That’s right, you co-wrote it together, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> We spent days and days together working on that book, and it was Dolly’s idea to call it \u003cem>Songteller\u003c/em>. It was completely her idea. I had mentioned to her that Tom T. Hall was a big, huge country music influence on me, and that he was called the storyteller, and he was a great songwriter as well. She thought, “If he’s the storyteller, then I’m the Songteller.” And she’s also named her downtown Nashville hotel the Songteller Hotel. And it will open this fall, sadly without her.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes. What were the types of stories, Lydia, that Dolly would like to tell through her songs that you noticed by looking so deeply at them?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Hamessley:\u003c/strong> Well, there are several kind of categories. One of them is the uplifting, very much hope and joy and optimism. So there are many of those kinds of songs where she really thinks there’s one better [world] to get to live in, you know, and don’t complain. Like, if you want things to be different, do it, make it different.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So she has a lot of those, but then she can go the other way and write songs that she would have called “sad-ass songs,” and those are the ones that are the dead-baby songs, you know. I think of one called “Evening Shade,” which is just a horror of orphans being mistreated, and they all band together and burn down the orphanage with the evil matron in it. And her last line in that is, “Evening Shade was burning just like the—” It was, you know.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So she could go from the sublime to the morose to everything in between, and yet in each of those categories you can find 10, 20, 30 songs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So she has these kind of tropes that she kept revisiting, and in fact, in the book I had to try to figure out, how am I going to talk about all these songs? I can’t do it chronologically. That seemed haphazard. I did it by topic because she revisits these things over the course of a career.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So she might have a song about the dead babies in the ’70s and then another in the ’90s and another, you know, a couple years later. So she’s got these kind of clumps of, for want of a better word, of ideas.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And one thing that she said, especially, I think, about the really sad songs, is that she can tell stories for other people who can’t tell their own stories.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And she really took that role very seriously, didn’t she?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Hamessley:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. She felt that that could empower people who didn’t have a voice or, as she said, the gift of rhyme or being able to write a song.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Monday, August 24, 2026 at 10 am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In their groundbreaking 1976 book, “How to Control Your Drinking,” William R. Miller and Ricardo F. Muñoz offered a guide for moderate alcohol use. Back then about two-thirds of American adults drank, and now about half do. As Americans drink less and question whether any amount of alcohol is healthy, Miller and Muñoz are out with a new book called “Rethinking Drinking,” to help us figure out what role, if any, drinking should have in our lives.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller, \u003c/strong>American clinical psychologist, an emeritus distinguished professor of psychology and psychiatry at the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque; co-author of “How to Control Your Drinking” (1976) and “Rethinking Drinking” (2026) \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz,\u003c/strong> Distinguished Professor of Clinical Psychology, Emeritus, Palo Alto University; Professor of Psychology, Emeritus, University of California, San Francisco, School of Medicine; co-author of “How to Control Your Drinking” (1976) and “Rethinking Drinking” (2026)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. A new Gallup poll finds that about half of Americans drink now — a record low — with 13% saying they sometimes drink too much, compared to 35% who said that in 1989. So what’s changed?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For more than 50 years, doctors William R. Miller and Ricardo F. Muñoz have been looking at what makes people’s attitudes and behavior change. In 1976, they co-authored \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>. And since then, they’ve revised it five times. The newest version, \u003cem>Rethinking Drinking\u003c/em>, will be released next month and incorporates the latest research and social trends.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Muñoz is Distinguished Professor of Clinical Psychology Emeritus at Palo Alto University, an Emeritus Professor of Psychology at the UCSF School of Medicine, where he was Chief Psychologist at San Francisco General Hospital for 25 years. Miller is an emeritus distinguished professor of psychology and psychiatry at the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque. He’s known for originating motivational interviewing and also for his work on alcohol use disorders.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ricardo Muñoz, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> I’m very happy to be here. Thank you, Mina.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Bill Miller, really glad to have you with us as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Good morning!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Bill, take me back to 1976. What were the attitudes and norms around drinking back then?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> It was very common to have a three-martini lunch. People, on average, drank about 20 beers a week, and of course, drinking and driving was a huge problem. Bars had huge parking lots, and in fact, if you didn’t drink, people asked you why. It was kind of unusual not to drink alcohol at the time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, Ricardo, you’ve talked about how people had sort of a binary view about drinking and drinkers. What was their conception?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Yeah, back then it was thought that there were only two kinds of drinkers. There were alcoholics who really couldn’t drink at all, otherwise they couldn’t stop drinking. And everybody else who didn’t have to worry about drinking. And Bill actually was one of the pioneers in beginning to try controlled drinking approaches. So there were people who had problems with alcohol, but they could learn to moderate their drinking.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, but they didn’t believe that they had the problems because they didn’t view themselves as, quote unquote, an alcoholic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Yeah, many people who had problem drinking did not think they were alcoholics, and again, Bill’s work was one of the first to try to see whether we could help people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> To moderate drinking.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Bill, what made you challenge, yeah, that commonly held idea that Ricardo was describing? What prompted you to take up studying this and to come up with, you know, the idea of moderation as a tool?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> I had a summer internship on an alcoholism unit in a veterans hospital and firsthand witnessed the devastation that that can do in people’s lives. And my passion really was to try to go upstream and see if we couldn’t prevent this and help people get their drinking turned around before it has the devastating consequences that I was seeing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, what would you say was sort of the kind of public health information about drinking that was available at the time?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, that’s changed so much over the decades. I mean, up until about the 1920s, public education was that this is such a dangerous drug that no one can use it safely. And then when Prohibition was repealed, suddenly, it was available everywhere. And so we had this national case of cognitive dissonance, and by the time that we were writing our first book in the 1970s, drinking was so normalized that people wondered what was wrong with you if you didn’t drink.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So then, Ricardo, how did you realize the dangers of drinking if the general social, you know, conversation was what Bill describes? Can you talk about when you were an undergrad at Stanford?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Yes, I was an undergrad living at Lagunita Court, a dorm there, and marijuana joints were passed around when we would get together on weekends, you know, and I would just pass the joint to the next person and…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Oh, you didn’t smoke it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> I didn’t smoke it, and one of the guys said, well, you don’t smoke? And I said, no. Do you drink? And I say, yeah. He said, well, drinking is a lot more dangerous than marijuana, and if you don’t believe me, look it up. So I did. I went to the undergraduate library — we called it Ugly back then — and I looked up alcohol and marijuana, and he was absolutely right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, the amount of risk involved with alcohol drinking, both at the individual level — cirrhosis of the liver, problems with dementia and so on — were already known back in the ’70s. But in addition to that, what really convinced me not to drink was all these social risks. I mean, alcohol was involved, obviously, with traffic accidents, but also was involved with violence. It was involved with sexual assaults, date rapes. Also having sex with someone you didn’t intend to because you were under the influence, and domestic violence, all these things that were happening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I decided — the guy wanted me to begin using marijuana, but I decided that the reasonable thing to do was stop using alcohol. So I haven’t drunk alcohol since then. It was just a logical choice for me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes, and it’s a good point to underscore just how much alcohol does come with social harms as much as individual harms.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, Bill, you know, the book you and Ricardo co-authored in 1976, \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>, it was considered the first self-help book on moderate alcohol use, as I understand it. What did it address? What were you recommending then?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, again, we were just trying to help people cut down their drinking, which now is what your doctor tells you. When you go to the doctor’s office, they now ask you how much you drink. And if it’s over an amount they think is too much, they encourage you to cut it down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We were giving very practical strategies for doing just that, of keeping track of how much you’re drinking, of reducing the speed, slowing down your drinking, and just getting out of situations that are high-risk situations. So just, you know, not rocket science, just very straightforward ways to reduce your drinking. And we put that into a self-help format that, to our surprise, we found people could use on their own, even without working with a therapist.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Are there things in that book that you would not include in your book now, you know, that you would consider dated, Bill?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, one thing we said in earlier versions was that moderate drinking may be beneficial to your health. And I think that has changed. I mean, that was in the ’70s and ’80s, almost an accepted fact that, well, moderate drinking is good for you. Not so much now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The World Health Organization says there really is no truly safe level of alcohol consumption. And I think we’re just much more aware as a society of both the social and the physical risks attached to alcohol use, and whatever level of drinking you do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I’ve noticed that the title is different. So you have revised this book five times, Ricardo, and each time it is some version of \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>. This time, it is called \u003cem>Rethinking Drinking\u003c/em>. Why the change in title?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Well, back in the 1970s, in psychology, it was a move to help people to learn ways of controlling themselves. That was a big deal. There was a book called, for example, \u003cem>Power to the Person\u003c/em>, which was a take-off on “power to the people.” But the whole idea was that you could learn what was making you do the things you did.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So control was a trendy thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Control was a trendy thing, so we had incorporated it. Yes, so \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>. I also co-authored the book called \u003cem>Control Your Depression\u003c/em>, for example, so control was a big deal then — self-control — and that’s what the focus of the book was, to try to help people who felt they had problems.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now we are thinking, given the data that’s now known about health problems — for example, all the cancers that are related to alcohol — now that people, in terms of controlling their drinking, should think about control all the way down to zero. That is, that one way of controlling your drinking is not to use it at all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Though one of the things that I notice is that you really do try to make the point that you’re not telling people, don’t drink. I mean, the subtitle to \u003cem>Rethinking Drinking\u003c/em>, Bill, is \u003cem>Making the Right Choice for You\u003c/em>. So am I interpreting that correctly, that you still drink on occasion and you’re not necessarily saying with this book you shouldn’t drink any alcohol at all?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Oh, definitely. Yeah, I mean, I’ve been a drinker all the time that Ricardo’s been an abstainer. I’m a very moderate drinker, I must say. But it’s up to people. It’s — we take risks every day, just in driving cars and so forth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But what we’re trying to do is help people just be aware of when and how alcohol use can be risky. And how much risk do you want to take with it? So it’s respecting people’s choice to make their own decisions about how they will use alcohol and just giving them the information that they can use to make good decisions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, do you also feel like that with all the new research that has come out saying that no amount of alcohol is good for you, right, that people are, you’re hearing people sort of wondering what place, what role drinking should have, if any, Bill?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, that really is part of the audience for this book now as well. We’re not just writing for people who are drinking way too much and want to moderate it. There are lots of people who are saying, do I want to drink at all? And how do I make that choice? How do I decide that? And so that’s part of the audience for whom we’re writing this book as well, if you’re just thinking about what role does alcohol have in my life. Uh, and it’s not the way I want it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The social conversation has really changed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re talking with Bill Miller, American clinical psychologist, distinguished professor of psychology and psychiatry emeritus at the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque, co-author with Ricardo F. Muñoz of the new book \u003cem>Rethinking Drinking\u003c/em>. They were co-authors of a book like this, though, you know, it’s been revised five times since 1976, but in 1976 it was called \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And listeners, join the conversation. Have you started drinking less? And if you have, tell us why. How are you going about it if you are? And what is the hardest part, do you find, of reducing the amount of drinking or probably going cold turkey? What questions do you have about the effects of alcohol on your health? And if you drink, where does alcohol fit into your life?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can tell us by calling 866-733-6786, by emailing forum@kqed.org, and finding us on Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. A new Gallup poll finds that about half of Americans drink now — a record low — with 13% saying they sometimes drink too much, compared to 35% who said that in 1989. So what’s changed?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. A new Gallup poll finds that about half of Americans drink now — a record low — with 13% saying they sometimes drink too much, compared to 35% who said that in 1989. So what’s changed?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For more than 50 years, doctors William R. Miller and Ricardo F. Muñoz have been looking at what makes people’s attitudes and behavior change. In 1976, they co-authored \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>. And since then, they’ve revised it five times. The newest version, \u003cem>Rethinking Drinking\u003c/em>, will be released next month and incorporates the latest research and social trends.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For more than 50 years, doctors William R. Miller and Ricardo F. Muñoz have been looking at what makes people’s attitudes and behavior change. In 1976, they co-authored \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>. And since then, they’ve revised it five times. The newest version, \u003cem>Rethinking Drinking\u003c/em>, will be released next month and incorporates the latest research and social trends.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Muñoz is Distinguished Professor of Clinical Psychology Emeritus at Palo Alto University, an Emeritus Professor of Psychology at the UCSF School of Medicine, where he was Chief Psychologist at San Francisco General Hospital for 25 years. Miller is an emeritus distinguished professor of psychology and psychiatry at the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque. He’s known for originating motivational interviewing and also for his work on alcohol use disorders.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Muñoz is Distinguished Professor of Clinical Psychology Emeritus at Palo Alto University, an Emeritus Professor of Psychology at the UCSF School of Medicine, where he was Chief Psychologist at San Francisco General Hospital for 25 years. Miller is an emeritus distinguished professor of psychology and psychiatry at the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque. He’s known for originating motivational interviewing and also for his work on alcohol use disorders.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> I’m very happy to be here. Thank you, Mina.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Bill, take me back to 1976. What were the attitudes and norms around drinking back then?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> It was very common to have a three-martini lunch. People, on average, drank about 20 beers a week, and of course, drinking and driving was a huge problem. Bars had huge parking lots, and in fact, if you didn’t drink, people asked you why. It was kind of unusual not to drink alcohol at the time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> It was very common to have a three-martini lunch. People, on average, drank about 20 beers a week, and of course, drinking and driving was a huge problem. Bars had huge parking lots, and in fact, if you didn’t drink, people asked you why. It was kind of unusual not to drink alcohol at the time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, Ricardo, you’ve talked about how people had sort of a binary view about drinking and drinkers. What was their conception?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Yeah, back then it was thought that there were only two kinds of drinkers. There were alcoholics who really couldn’t drink at all, otherwise they couldn’t stop drinking. And everybody else who didn’t have to worry about drinking. And Bill actually was one of the pioneers in beginning to try controlled drinking approaches. So there were people who had problems with alcohol, but they could learn to moderate their drinking.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, but they didn’t believe that they had the problems because they didn’t view themselves as, quote unquote, an alcoholic.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Bill, what made you challenge, yeah, that commonly held idea that Ricardo was describing? What prompted you to take up studying this and to come up with, you know, the idea of moderation as a tool?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> I had a summer internship on an alcoholism unit in a veterans hospital and firsthand witnessed the devastation that that can do in people’s lives. And my passion really was to try to go upstream and see if we couldn’t prevent this and help people get their drinking turned around before it has the devastating consequences that I was seeing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> I had a summer internship on an alcoholism unit in a veterans hospital and firsthand witnessed the devastation that that can do in people’s lives. And my passion really was to try to go upstream and see if we couldn’t prevent this and help people get their drinking turned around before it has the devastating consequences that I was seeing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, what would you say was sort of the kind of public health information about drinking that was available at the time?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, what would you say was sort of the kind of public health information about drinking that was available at the time?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, that’s changed so much over the decades. I mean, up until about the 1920s, public education was that this is such a dangerous drug that no one can use it safely. And then when Prohibition was repealed, suddenly, it was available everywhere. And so we had this national case of cognitive dissonance, and by the time that we were writing our first book in the 1970s, drinking was so normalized that people wondered what was wrong with you if you didn’t drink.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, that’s changed so much over the decades. I mean, up until about the 1920s, public education was that this is such a dangerous drug that no one can use it safely. And then when Prohibition was repealed, suddenly, it was available everywhere. And so we had this national case of cognitive dissonance, and by the time that we were writing our first book in the 1970s, drinking was so normalized that people wondered what was wrong with you if you didn’t drink.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So then, Ricardo, how did you realize the dangers of drinking if the general social, you know, conversation was what Bill describes? Can you talk about when you were an undergrad at Stanford?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So then, Ricardo, how did you realize the dangers of drinking if the general social, you know, conversation was what Bill describes? Can you talk about when you were an undergrad at Stanford?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Yes, I was an undergrad living at Lagunita Court, a dorm there, and marijuana joints were passed around when we would get together on weekends, you know, and I would just pass the joint to the next person and…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Yes, I was an undergrad living at Lagunita Court, a dorm there, and marijuana joints were passed around when we would get together on weekends, you know, and I would just pass the joint to the next person and…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Oh, you didn’t smoke it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Oh, you didn’t smoke it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> I didn’t smoke it, and one of the guys said, well, you don’t smoke? And I said, no. Do you drink? And I say, yeah. He said, well, drinking is a lot more dangerous than marijuana, and if you don’t believe me, look it up. So I did. I went to the undergraduate library — we called it Ugly back then — and I looked up alcohol and marijuana, and he was absolutely right.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> I didn’t smoke it, and one of the guys said, well, you don’t smoke? And I said, no. Do you drink? And I say, yeah. He said, well, drinking is a lot more dangerous than marijuana, and if you don’t believe me, look it up. So I did. I went to the undergraduate library — we called it Ugly back then — and I looked up alcohol and marijuana, and he was absolutely right.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, the amount of risk involved with alcohol drinking, both at the individual level — cirrhosis of the liver, problems with dementia and so on — were already known back in the ’70s. But in addition to that, what really convinced me not to drink was all these social risks. I mean, alcohol was involved, obviously, with traffic accidents, but also was involved with violence. It was involved with sexual assaults, date rapes. Also having sex with someone you didn’t intend to because you were under the influence, and domestic violence, all these things that were happening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, the amount of risk involved with alcohol drinking, both at the individual level — cirrhosis of the liver, problems with dementia and so on — were already known back in the ’70s. But in addition to that, what really convinced me not to drink was all these social risks. I mean, alcohol was involved, obviously, with traffic accidents, but also was involved with violence. It was involved with sexual assaults, date rapes. Also having sex with someone you didn’t intend to because you were under the influence, and domestic violence, all these things that were happening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I decided — the guy wanted me to begin using marijuana, but I decided that the reasonable thing to do was stop using alcohol. So I haven’t drunk alcohol since then. It was just a logical choice for me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I decided — the guy wanted me to begin using marijuana, but I decided that the reasonable thing to do was stop using alcohol. So I haven’t drunk alcohol since then. It was just a logical choice for me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes, and it’s a good point to underscore just how much alcohol does come with social harms as much as individual harms.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes, and it’s a good point to underscore just how much alcohol does come with social harms as much as individual harms.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, Bill, you know, the book you and Ricardo co-authored in 1976, \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>, it was considered the first self-help book on moderate alcohol use, as I understand it. What did it address? What were you recommending then?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, Bill, you know, the book you and Ricardo co-authored in 1976, \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>, it was considered the first self-help book on moderate alcohol use, as I understand it. What did it address? What were you recommending then?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, again, we were just trying to help people cut down their drinking, which now is what your doctor tells you. When you go to the doctor’s office, they now ask you how much you drink. And if it’s over an amount they think is too much, they encourage you to cut it down.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, again, we were just trying to help people cut down their drinking, which now is what your doctor tells you. When you go to the doctor’s office, they now ask you how much you drink. And if it’s over an amount they think is too much, they encourage you to cut it down.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We were giving very practical strategies for doing just that, of keeping track of how much you’re drinking, of reducing the speed, slowing down your drinking, and just getting out of situations that are high-risk situations. So just, you know, not rocket science, just very straightforward ways to reduce your drinking. And we put that into a self-help format that, to our surprise, we found people could use on their own, even without working with a therapist.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We were giving very practical strategies for doing just that, of keeping track of how much you’re drinking, of reducing the speed, slowing down your drinking, and just getting out of situations that are high-risk situations. So just, you know, not rocket science, just very straightforward ways to reduce your drinking. And we put that into a self-help format that, to our surprise, we found people could use on their own, even without working with a therapist.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Are there things in that book that you would not include in your book now, you know, that you would consider dated, Bill?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Are there things in that book that you would not include in your book now, you know, that you would consider dated, Bill?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, one thing we said in earlier versions was that moderate drinking may be beneficial to your health. And I think that has changed. I mean, that was in the ’70s and ’80s, almost an accepted fact that, well, moderate drinking is good for you. Not so much now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, one thing we said in earlier versions was that moderate drinking may be beneficial to your health. And I think that has changed. I mean, that was in the ’70s and ’80s, almost an accepted fact that, well, moderate drinking is good for you. Not so much now.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The World Health Organization says there really is no truly safe level of alcohol consumption. And I think we’re just much more aware as a society of both the social and the physical risks attached to alcohol use, and whatever level of drinking you do.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The World Health Organization says there really is no truly safe level of alcohol consumption. And I think we’re just much more aware as a society of both the social and the physical risks attached to alcohol use, and whatever level of drinking you do.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I’ve noticed that the title is different. So you have revised this book five times, Ricardo, and each time it is some version of \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>. This time, it is called \u003cem>Rethinking Drinking\u003c/em>. Why the change in title?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I’ve noticed that the title is different. So you have revised this book five times, Ricardo, and each time it is some version of \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>. This time, it is called \u003cem>Rethinking Drinking\u003c/em>. Why the change in title?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Well, back in the 1970s, in psychology, it was a move to help people to learn ways of controlling themselves. That was a big deal. There was a book called, for example, \u003cem>Power to the Person\u003c/em>, which was a take-off on “power to the people.” But the whole idea was that you could learn what was making you do the things you did.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Well, back in the 1970s, in psychology, it was a move to help people to learn ways of controlling themselves. That was a big deal. There was a book called, for example, \u003cem>Power to the Person\u003c/em>, which was a take-off on “power to the people.” But the whole idea was that you could learn what was making you do the things you did.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So control was a trendy thing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So control was a trendy thing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Control was a trendy thing, so we had incorporated it. Yes, so \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>. I also co-authored the book called \u003cem>Control Your Depression\u003c/em>, for example, so control was a big deal then — self-control — and that’s what the focus of the book was, to try to help people who felt they had problems.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Control was a trendy thing, so we had incorporated it. Yes, so \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>. I also co-authored the book called \u003cem>Control Your Depression\u003c/em>, for example, so control was a big deal then — self-control — and that’s what the focus of the book was, to try to help people who felt they had problems.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now we are thinking, given the data that’s now known about health problems — for example, all the cancers that are related to alcohol — now that people, in terms of controlling their drinking, should think about control all the way down to zero. That is, that one way of controlling your drinking is not to use it at all.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now we are thinking, given the data that’s now known about health problems — for example, all the cancers that are related to alcohol — now that people, in terms of controlling their drinking, should think about control all the way down to zero. That is, that one way of controlling your drinking is not to use it at all.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Though one of the things that I notice is that you really do try to make the point that you’re not telling people, don’t drink. I mean, the subtitle to \u003cem>Rethinking Drinking\u003c/em>, Bill, is \u003cem>Making the Right Choice for You\u003c/em>. So am I interpreting that correctly, that you still drink on occasion and you’re not necessarily saying with this book you shouldn’t drink any alcohol at all?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Though one of the things that I notice is that you really do try to make the point that you’re not telling people, don’t drink. I mean, the subtitle to \u003cem>Rethinking Drinking\u003c/em>, Bill, is \u003cem>Making the Right Choice for You\u003c/em>. So am I interpreting that correctly, that you still drink on occasion and you’re not necessarily saying with this book you shouldn’t drink any alcohol at all?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Oh, definitely. Yeah, I mean, I’ve been a drinker all the time that Ricardo’s been an abstainer. I’m a very moderate drinker, I must say. But it’s up to people. It’s — we take risks every day, just in driving cars and so forth.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Oh, definitely. Yeah, I mean, I’ve been a drinker all the time that Ricardo’s been an abstainer. I’m a very moderate drinker, I must say. But it’s up to people. It’s — we take risks every day, just in driving cars and so forth.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But what we’re trying to do is help people just be aware of when and how alcohol use can be risky. And how much risk do you want to take with it? So it’s respecting people’s choice to make their own decisions about how they will use alcohol and just giving them the information that they can use to make good decisions.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But what we’re trying to do is help people just be aware of when and how alcohol use can be risky. And how much risk do you want to take with it? So it’s respecting people’s choice to make their own decisions about how they will use alcohol and just giving them the information that they can use to make good decisions.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, do you also feel like that with all the new research that has come out saying that no amount of alcohol is good for you, right, that people are, you’re hearing people sort of wondering what place, what role drinking should have, if any, Bill?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, do you also feel like that with all the new research that has come out saying that no amount of alcohol is good for you, right, that people are, you’re hearing people sort of wondering what place, what role drinking should have, if any, Bill?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, that really is part of the audience for this book now as well. We’re not just writing for people who are drinking way too much and want to moderate it. There are lots of people who are saying, do I want to drink at all? And how do I make that choice? How do I decide that? And so that’s part of the audience for whom we’re writing this book as well, if you’re just thinking about what role does alcohol have in my life. Uh, and it’s not the way I want it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, that really is part of the audience for this book now as well. We’re not just writing for people who are drinking way too much and want to moderate it. There are lots of people who are saying, do I want to drink at all? And how do I make that choice? How do I decide that? And so that’s part of the audience for whom we’re writing this book as well, if you’re just thinking about what role does alcohol have in my life. Uh, and it’s not the way I want it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The social conversation has really changed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The social conversation has really changed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’re talking with Bill Miller, American clinical psychologist, distinguished professor of psychology and psychiatry emeritus at the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque, co-author with Ricardo F. Muñoz of the new book \u003cem>Rethinking Drinking\u003c/em>. They were co-authors of a book like this, though, you know, it’s been revised five times since 1976, but in 1976 it was called \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We’re talking with Bill Miller, American clinical psychologist, distinguished professor of psychology and psychiatry emeritus at the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque, co-author with Ricardo F. Muñoz of the new book \u003cem>Rethinking Drinking\u003c/em>. They were co-authors of a book like this, though, you know, it’s been revised five times since 1976, but in 1976 it was called \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And listeners, join the conversation. Have you started drinking less? And if you have, tell us why. How are you going about it if you are? And what is the hardest part, do you find, of reducing the amount of drinking or probably going cold turkey? What questions do you have about the effects of alcohol on your health? And if you drink, where does alcohol fit into your life?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And listeners, join the conversation. Have you started drinking less? And if you have, tell us why. How are you going about it if you are? And what is the hardest part, do you find, of reducing the amount of drinking or probably going cold turkey? What questions do you have about the effects of alcohol on your health? And if you drink, where does alcohol fit into your life?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You can tell us by calling 866-733-6786, by emailing forum@kqed.org, and finding us on Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>You can tell us by calling 866-733-6786, by emailing forum@kqed.org, and finding us on Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Monday, August 24, 2026 at 10 am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In their groundbreaking 1976 book, “How to Control Your Drinking,” William R. Miller and Ricardo F. Muñoz offered a guide for moderate alcohol use. Back then about two-thirds of American adults drank, and now about half do. As Americans drink less and question whether any amount of alcohol is healthy, Miller and Muñoz are out with a new book called “Rethinking Drinking,” to help us figure out what role, if any, drinking should have in our lives.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller, \u003c/strong>American clinical psychologist, an emeritus distinguished professor of psychology and psychiatry at the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque; co-author of “How to Control Your Drinking” (1976) and “Rethinking Drinking” (2026) \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz,\u003c/strong> Distinguished Professor of Clinical Psychology, Emeritus, Palo Alto University; Professor of Psychology, Emeritus, University of California, San Francisco, School of Medicine; co-author of “How to Control Your Drinking” (1976) and “Rethinking Drinking” (2026)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. A new Gallup poll finds that about half of Americans drink now — a record low — with 13% saying they sometimes drink too much, compared to 35% who said that in 1989. So what’s changed?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For more than 50 years, doctors William R. Miller and Ricardo F. Muñoz have been looking at what makes people’s attitudes and behavior change. In 1976, they co-authored \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>. And since then, they’ve revised it five times. The newest version, \u003cem>Rethinking Drinking\u003c/em>, will be released next month and incorporates the latest research and social trends.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Muñoz is Distinguished Professor of Clinical Psychology Emeritus at Palo Alto University, an Emeritus Professor of Psychology at the UCSF School of Medicine, where he was Chief Psychologist at San Francisco General Hospital for 25 years. Miller is an emeritus distinguished professor of psychology and psychiatry at the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque. He’s known for originating motivational interviewing and also for his work on alcohol use disorders.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ricardo Muñoz, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> I’m very happy to be here. Thank you, Mina.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Bill Miller, really glad to have you with us as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Good morning!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Bill, take me back to 1976. What were the attitudes and norms around drinking back then?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> It was very common to have a three-martini lunch. People, on average, drank about 20 beers a week, and of course, drinking and driving was a huge problem. Bars had huge parking lots, and in fact, if you didn’t drink, people asked you why. It was kind of unusual not to drink alcohol at the time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, Ricardo, you’ve talked about how people had sort of a binary view about drinking and drinkers. What was their conception?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Yeah, back then it was thought that there were only two kinds of drinkers. There were alcoholics who really couldn’t drink at all, otherwise they couldn’t stop drinking. And everybody else who didn’t have to worry about drinking. And Bill actually was one of the pioneers in beginning to try controlled drinking approaches. So there were people who had problems with alcohol, but they could learn to moderate their drinking.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, but they didn’t believe that they had the problems because they didn’t view themselves as, quote unquote, an alcoholic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Yeah, many people who had problem drinking did not think they were alcoholics, and again, Bill’s work was one of the first to try to see whether we could help people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> To moderate drinking.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Bill, what made you challenge, yeah, that commonly held idea that Ricardo was describing? What prompted you to take up studying this and to come up with, you know, the idea of moderation as a tool?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> I had a summer internship on an alcoholism unit in a veterans hospital and firsthand witnessed the devastation that that can do in people’s lives. And my passion really was to try to go upstream and see if we couldn’t prevent this and help people get their drinking turned around before it has the devastating consequences that I was seeing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, what would you say was sort of the kind of public health information about drinking that was available at the time?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, that’s changed so much over the decades. I mean, up until about the 1920s, public education was that this is such a dangerous drug that no one can use it safely. And then when Prohibition was repealed, suddenly, it was available everywhere. And so we had this national case of cognitive dissonance, and by the time that we were writing our first book in the 1970s, drinking was so normalized that people wondered what was wrong with you if you didn’t drink.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So then, Ricardo, how did you realize the dangers of drinking if the general social, you know, conversation was what Bill describes? Can you talk about when you were an undergrad at Stanford?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Yes, I was an undergrad living at Lagunita Court, a dorm there, and marijuana joints were passed around when we would get together on weekends, you know, and I would just pass the joint to the next person and…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Oh, you didn’t smoke it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> I didn’t smoke it, and one of the guys said, well, you don’t smoke? And I said, no. Do you drink? And I say, yeah. He said, well, drinking is a lot more dangerous than marijuana, and if you don’t believe me, look it up. So I did. I went to the undergraduate library — we called it Ugly back then — and I looked up alcohol and marijuana, and he was absolutely right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, the amount of risk involved with alcohol drinking, both at the individual level — cirrhosis of the liver, problems with dementia and so on — were already known back in the ’70s. But in addition to that, what really convinced me not to drink was all these social risks. I mean, alcohol was involved, obviously, with traffic accidents, but also was involved with violence. It was involved with sexual assaults, date rapes. Also having sex with someone you didn’t intend to because you were under the influence, and domestic violence, all these things that were happening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I decided — the guy wanted me to begin using marijuana, but I decided that the reasonable thing to do was stop using alcohol. So I haven’t drunk alcohol since then. It was just a logical choice for me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes, and it’s a good point to underscore just how much alcohol does come with social harms as much as individual harms.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, Bill, you know, the book you and Ricardo co-authored in 1976, \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>, it was considered the first self-help book on moderate alcohol use, as I understand it. What did it address? What were you recommending then?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, again, we were just trying to help people cut down their drinking, which now is what your doctor tells you. When you go to the doctor’s office, they now ask you how much you drink. And if it’s over an amount they think is too much, they encourage you to cut it down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We were giving very practical strategies for doing just that, of keeping track of how much you’re drinking, of reducing the speed, slowing down your drinking, and just getting out of situations that are high-risk situations. So just, you know, not rocket science, just very straightforward ways to reduce your drinking. And we put that into a self-help format that, to our surprise, we found people could use on their own, even without working with a therapist.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Are there things in that book that you would not include in your book now, you know, that you would consider dated, Bill?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, one thing we said in earlier versions was that moderate drinking may be beneficial to your health. And I think that has changed. I mean, that was in the ’70s and ’80s, almost an accepted fact that, well, moderate drinking is good for you. Not so much now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The World Health Organization says there really is no truly safe level of alcohol consumption. And I think we’re just much more aware as a society of both the social and the physical risks attached to alcohol use, and whatever level of drinking you do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I’ve noticed that the title is different. So you have revised this book five times, Ricardo, and each time it is some version of \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>. This time, it is called \u003cem>Rethinking Drinking\u003c/em>. Why the change in title?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Well, back in the 1970s, in psychology, it was a move to help people to learn ways of controlling themselves. That was a big deal. There was a book called, for example, \u003cem>Power to the Person\u003c/em>, which was a take-off on “power to the people.” But the whole idea was that you could learn what was making you do the things you did.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So control was a trendy thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Control was a trendy thing, so we had incorporated it. Yes, so \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>. I also co-authored the book called \u003cem>Control Your Depression\u003c/em>, for example, so control was a big deal then — self-control — and that’s what the focus of the book was, to try to help people who felt they had problems.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now we are thinking, given the data that’s now known about health problems — for example, all the cancers that are related to alcohol — now that people, in terms of controlling their drinking, should think about control all the way down to zero. That is, that one way of controlling your drinking is not to use it at all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Though one of the things that I notice is that you really do try to make the point that you’re not telling people, don’t drink. I mean, the subtitle to \u003cem>Rethinking Drinking\u003c/em>, Bill, is \u003cem>Making the Right Choice for You\u003c/em>. So am I interpreting that correctly, that you still drink on occasion and you’re not necessarily saying with this book you shouldn’t drink any alcohol at all?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Oh, definitely. Yeah, I mean, I’ve been a drinker all the time that Ricardo’s been an abstainer. I’m a very moderate drinker, I must say. But it’s up to people. It’s — we take risks every day, just in driving cars and so forth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But what we’re trying to do is help people just be aware of when and how alcohol use can be risky. And how much risk do you want to take with it? So it’s respecting people’s choice to make their own decisions about how they will use alcohol and just giving them the information that they can use to make good decisions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, do you also feel like that with all the new research that has come out saying that no amount of alcohol is good for you, right, that people are, you’re hearing people sort of wondering what place, what role drinking should have, if any, Bill?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, that really is part of the audience for this book now as well. We’re not just writing for people who are drinking way too much and want to moderate it. There are lots of people who are saying, do I want to drink at all? And how do I make that choice? How do I decide that? And so that’s part of the audience for whom we’re writing this book as well, if you’re just thinking about what role does alcohol have in my life. Uh, and it’s not the way I want it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The social conversation has really changed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re talking with Bill Miller, American clinical psychologist, distinguished professor of psychology and psychiatry emeritus at the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque, co-author with Ricardo F. Muñoz of the new book \u003cem>Rethinking Drinking\u003c/em>. They were co-authors of a book like this, though, you know, it’s been revised five times since 1976, but in 1976 it was called \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And listeners, join the conversation. Have you started drinking less? And if you have, tell us why. How are you going about it if you are? And what is the hardest part, do you find, of reducing the amount of drinking or probably going cold turkey? What questions do you have about the effects of alcohol on your health? And if you drink, where does alcohol fit into your life?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can tell us by calling 866-733-6786, by emailing forum@kqed.org, and finding us on Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
"airtime": "SUN 9pm-10pm",
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"meta": {
"site": "radio",
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
"airtime": "THU 10pm, FRI 1am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Commonwealth-Club-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.commonwealthclub.org/podcasts",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
"link": "/radio/program/commonwealth-club",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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}
},
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"id": "forum",
"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 9am-11am, 10pm-11pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 9
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5NTU3MzgxNjMz",
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"id": "freakonomics-radio",
"title": "Freakonomics Radio",
"info": "Freakonomics Radio is a one-hour award-winning podcast and public-radio project hosted by Stephen Dubner, with co-author Steve Levitt as a regular guest. It is produced in partnership with WNYC.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/freakonomicsRadio.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
"airtime": "SUN 1am-2am, SAT 3pm-4pm",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WNYC"
},
"link": "/radio/program/freakonomics-radio",
"subscribe": {
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
"rss": "https://feeds.feedburner.com/freakonomicsradio"
}
},
"fresh-air": {
"id": "fresh-air",
"title": "Fresh Air",
"info": "Hosted by Terry Gross, \u003cem>Fresh Air from WHYY\u003c/em> is the Peabody Award-winning weekday magazine of contemporary arts and issues. One of public radio's most popular programs, Fresh Air features intimate conversations with today's biggest luminaries.",
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"link": "/radio/program/fresh-air",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/381444908/podcast.xml"
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"id": "here-and-now",
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510051/podcast.xml"
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},
"hidden-brain": {
"id": "hidden-brain",
"title": "Hidden Brain",
"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/05/hiddenbrain.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/series/423302056/hidden-brain",
"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "NPR"
},
"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
"subscribe": {
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"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/Science-Podcasts/Hidden-Brain-p787503/",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510308/podcast.xml"
}
},
"how-i-built-this": {
"id": "how-i-built-this",
"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/howIBuiltThis.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510313/how-i-built-this",
"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/3zxy",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510313/podcast.xml"
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},
"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
"imageAlt": "KQED Hyphenación",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
"meta": {
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"order": 15
},
"link": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/2p3Fifq96nw9BPcmFdIq0o?si=39209f7b25774f38",
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"amazon": "https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/6c3dd23c-93fb-4aab-97ba-1725fa6315f1/hyphenaci%C3%B3n",
"rss": "https://feeds.megaphone.fm/KQINC2275451163"
}
},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
"meta": {
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"order": 18
},
"link": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/id1492194549",
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}
},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/xtTd",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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"rss": "https://feeds.publicradio.org/public_feeds/marketplace-pm/rss/rss"
}
},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Masters-of-Scale-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WaitWhat"
},
"link": "/radio/program/masters-of-scale",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "http://mastersofscale.app.link/",
"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mindshift-podcast/id1078765985",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/464615685/mind-shift-podcast",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/stories-teachers-share",
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}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
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"link": "/radio/program/morning-edition"
},
"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "On Our Watch from NPR and KQED",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/id1567098962",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
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"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/show/on-our-watch",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510360/podcast.xml"
}
},
"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm-3pm, MON 12am-1am",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/otm",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "wnyc"
},
"link": "/radio/program/on-the-media",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/on-the-media/id73330715?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/On-the-Media-p69/",
"rss": "http://feeds.wnyc.org/onthemedia"
}
},
"pbs-newshour": {
"id": "pbs-newshour",
"title": "PBS NewsHour",
"info": "Analysis, background reports and updates from the PBS NewsHour putting today's news in context.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3pm-4pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/PBS-News-Hour-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "pbs"
},
"link": "/radio/program/pbs-newshour",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pbs-newshour-full-show/id394432287?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/PBS-NewsHour---Full-Show-p425698/",
"rss": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/feeds/rss/podcasts/show"
}
},
"perspectives": {
"id": "perspectives",
"title": "Perspectives",
"tagline": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991",
"info": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/Perspectives_Tile_Final.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Perspectives",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/perspectives/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 14
},
"link": "/perspectives",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/id73801135",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/432309616/perspectives",
"rss": "https://ww2.kqed.org/perspectives/category/perspectives/feed/",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93dzIua3FlZC5vcmcvcGVyc3BlY3RpdmVzL2NhdGVnb3J5L3BlcnNwZWN0aXZlcy9mZWVkLw"
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},
"planet-money": {
"id": "planet-money",
"title": "Planet Money",
"info": "The economy explained. Imagine you could call up a friend and say, Meet me at the bar and tell me what's going on with the economy. Now imagine that's actually a fun evening.",
"airtime": "SUN 3pm-4pm",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/planetmoney.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/sections/money/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/planet-money",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/M4f5",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/planet-money/id290783428?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/Business--Economics-Podcasts/Planet-Money-p164680/",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510289/podcast.xml"
}
},
"politicalbreakdown": {
"id": "politicalbreakdown",
"title": "Political Breakdown",
"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
"airtime": "THU 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Political-Breakdown-2024-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Political Breakdown",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/politicalbreakdown",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 5
},
"link": "/podcasts/politicalbreakdown",
"subscribe": {
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"amazon": "https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/e0c2d153-ad36-4c8d-901d-f1da6a724824/political-breakdown",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/572155894/political-breakdown",
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