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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Tuesday, September 22, 2026 at 10 am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Actor Ke Huy Quan’s family fled post-war Vietnam and lived in a Hong Kong refugee camp before his unlikely turn as an iconic 1980s child star. He stumbled into a casting call for “Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom” at 12 years old, then rolled right into “The Goonies.” But as he transitioned into adulthood, roles started drying up. After decades of rejection, Quan made an Oscar-winning comeback in “Everything Everywhere All at Once.” In his new memoir, “Never Say Die,” Quan shares his forty-year journey of perseverance and self-discovery.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan,\u003c/strong> Academy Award-winning actor; author, “Never Say Die”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. When Ke Huy Quan walked on stage in 2023 to accept the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor in \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>, he did not hold back tears.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Thank you. My mom is 84 years old and she’s at home watching. Mom, I just won an Oscar.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> For Quan, his path to Hollywood’s highest honor included decades of painful self-doubt and very few roles, this after a big-screen debut in the ’80s at the age of 12 as Short Round in \u003cem>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Short Round, step on it! Okie dokie, Dr. Jones, hold onto your potato!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It’s a journey Quan chronicles in his new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. And he joins me now. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, Ke.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Mina, hey, thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Oh, it’s so wonderful to have you and to have been able to learn so much about your life, especially starting out as the kid that I, you know, maybe the first Asian kid actor I ever saw in a film, Short Round.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Ha, ha, ha! Well, I’m very proud of that. I don’t know if that’s a good thing or not. It just goes to show you how underrepresented we were back then.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you write actually in your book that it was a moment when you got that part, when your life split into a clear before and after. First, can you just talk about getting that part in 1983? Because it was basically accidental, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yes, it was. It was only a few years since we immigrated to Chinatown, Los Angeles, and I was busy acclimating into this new life, learning this new language. And we were ESL students, so we would go on every Saturday morning to get extra help with vocabulary and reading comprehension.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And normally it’s really quiet until that one Saturday while we were studying. We noticed that people kept showing up, more and more people. It was parents with their kids heading into the building, and it really piqued my little brother David’s interest. And he said, “Hey, what’s going on?” And our tutors said, “Didn’t you see the flyers everywhere? They’re looking for a Chinese kid to be in a big Hollywood movie.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that was the first time we heard it. And after the tutoring session, my brother wanted to go check out to see what’s going on and wanted to give it a try, and I tagged along. Walked into a hallway filled with Asian kids reciting lines that they were told to memorize, and that’s how it all began.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and you were feeling like, so David signs up to do this and you are feeling like he’s not really bringing it, right? What the casting directors are asking for, so you start coaching—\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> In front of the casting directors? Here’s the thing. It actually came out of my love for my brother. We would watch TV and reenact scenes together, so I know how good he can be. But being in front of the camera, I felt like he was a little nervous and he was holding back. And the casting directors weren’t seeing him the way I see him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And thinking that they don’t understand Cantonese, so I just jumped out of the chair and started screaming at him, you know, in Cantonese, kind of directing him what to do. And unbeknownst to me, their attention started to turn to me. So when my brother finished, they asked me if I would stay behind and read for them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Incredible. And then, of course, you know, they knew right then that they had their Short Round. And you also talk about auditioning in front of Steven Spielberg and Harrison Ford and George Lucas and how they really embraced you as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But this was not an experience that you had had leading up to this. Let’s talk about the before, living in post-war Vietnam and needing to flee with your family in 1977. Why did you make that decision? What was happening? Or why did your parents make that decision?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Well, you know, this is 1977, post-Vietnam War, and our lives prior to that were really good. I mean, my parents were successful middle-class business people, and they had every intention of building a life for all of us there. And when that future looked bleak, they had no choice but to make the incredibly difficult decision to get all of us out of there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, and it was, uh, it was really traumatic. I was only seven years old. I didn’t know what was going on. I wasn’t given any information. Uh, all I knew was one day I was playing with my little brother and the next, being woken up in the middle of the night, being carried over my dad’s shoulder and carried into a waiting car.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that was our very first attempt to escape. We made a total of three attempts. The first two were unsuccessful and landed me in jail. So by the time I turned eight, I had spent, you know, the first time three weeks, the second time three months in jail, and it was not until the third attempt, then as long as you can pay, you would have a spot on the ship and everything was out in the open.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and your family’s savings have been confiscated when you were arrested, and incredibly, spending that much time in jail as a little kid. But as you say, he gets the money to secure passage, basically in the cargo hold of a boat, by borrowing it. And you’re with 3,000 others packed in, experiencing bouts of seasickness and so on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But talk about when you finally make it to Hong Kong. The country won’t take you in, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah. After we spent seven treacherous days, you know, out in the South China Sea — you understand, this was winter. Almost all of us were city people, never been on a boat before, so those waves were big and the boat was rocking, like, really violently. Pretty much every single one of us were vomiting left and right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when we finally made it to Hong Kong, we thought that, wow, we had made it now. You know, everything’s gonna be all right. But once we got there, we got the terrible news that the Hong Kong government would not allow us to come on board. And we were desperate. We were hungry. The sanitation was really awful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And we ended up spending more than a month on the shore of Hong Kong, while this incredible organization called United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, UNHCR, stepped in and worked with countries all over the world to convince Hong Kong that if they were to allow us to come ashore, that they would help to get us off of their hands.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that’s what happened. And we ended up spending more than a year in a refugee camp.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to invite listeners into the conversation. Listen, we’re talking with Ke Huy Quan, Academy Award-winning actor for \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em> and now the author of a new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. Maybe you remember seeing him in \u003cem>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom\u003c/em> or as Data in \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, or are familiar with his recent voicing of Gary De’Snake in \u003cem>Zootopia 2\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Tell us what your questions are for Ke, what you want to say, what your favorite movies of his are or his work, or what parts of Ke’s story resonate with you, maybe feel similar to yours. You can email forum@kqed.org, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786. Again, that’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, one of the stories of the most painful memories of rejection in Hong Kong that really struck me was when you actually go to your aunt’s home to visit, to have a meal with her and her family. Can you talk about what happened there?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yes. My mom was born in Hong Kong, so her family lives in Hong Kong. And one day, you know, the refugee camp that we stayed in, we were allowed to go in and out. My older siblings were allowed to go work, so they were all supporting themselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And being the youngest of six with my dad, I didn’t have much to do. So one day when I found out that my aunt invited me and my sister to a home to have dinner, I was so excited. My dad bought me a brand-new outfit, and I hadn’t had a home-cooked meal in, you know, months. And here I am, you know, getting invited to my mom’s sister, older sister’s apartment. And I thought that, you know, she looked like my mom and I thought everything was going to be great.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When I sat down to have dinner, I didn’t understand what the Hong Kong culture was like. Everybody had their own customized pair of chopsticks with their name on it. But I was so excited, I was hungry. I sat and started eating and literally didn’t know that I was actually using my cousin’s pair of chopsticks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I was called out on it right away. And I witnessed my aunt took the very same pair of chopsticks that I had used into the kitchen, washed it extensively, and poured hot boiling water over it. And at that age, I didn’t understand why she did that. I thought we were family.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, of course, many years later, uh… I understand. I don’t think she was trying to hurt me in any other way, but it was just this fear that everyone had, you know, we were refugees, and there was that stigma that comes with it. And because of little information that was known about all of us, I mean, she thought that we would carry disease. And, yeah, it was — it was, you know, a moment that I never forgot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, it’s a moment you never got — you finally reunite with your mom and siblings in Los Angeles’ Chinatown in ’79. They had gone ahead and you had been separated from them. But how does that experience shape your sort of sense of self or your place in the world early on? And we’re coming up on a break. Sorry about that, Ke, but we just have about 30 seconds.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Uh, it really, you know, when I sat down and write this book, it really made me confront my own identity, uh, and as a refugee and what that label carried. And for so many years, I was really ashamed of it. Um, I didn’t know, you know, I think it really shaped who I am today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we’re talking with Ke Huy Quan. And so are you, listeners, at 866-733-6786, on our social channels at KQED Forum, and you can email Forum at kqed.org. More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. We’re talking this hour with actor Ke Huy Quan, who played Waymond in 2022’s \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>, which he won the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor. He has a new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. And here’s a clip of a press interview Ke gave in 1984 about getting the part of Short Round in \u003cem>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I think I changed a lot and I was a bold people and now I get to make the movie. Do you think you’ve been very lucky? Yes, definitely. I think I’m very lucky, and I’m number seven in my family. That’s a lucky number.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What’s it like to hear that, Ke, or voice?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I’m so precocious. And I think that’s how I got the role too, I’m sure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That played a big part. Well, we’ve got a call coming in from Lubna in Palo Alto. Lubna, join us. You’re on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much. I wanted to just congratulate the guest on his success and just overcoming so much in his life and being successful. It’s wonderful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We are of South Asian descent, and my son is just embarking on his acting career after graduating from school, college. And we know that Brown people are having a moment. But we don’t know how long this moment will last. And we were just wondering, what advice do you have for someone just starting out, you know, Indian-Pakistani descent, trying to land roles and get noticed and, you know, where, of course, still the majority of roles do not go to people of minority descent?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Great question. Thanks for calling in. Yeah, I mean, you know, if I’m being honest, it is very difficult. And my advice is that you have to be prepared for a lot of rejections. And make sure that the belief you have in yourself doesn’t waver. And work really hard. Don’t give up and don’t let anybody… you know, tell you anything different.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think it’s really important. If you look at my story, you know, I wouldn’t be here talking to you if I didn’t persevere. A lot of times, you know, we don’t know what’s right around the corner. But if we stop, we’ll never see it. So we have to always keep going and work really hard and be patient because, you know, I believe that everyone — you know, everyone has their own time and that time will come one day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, talk about what happened in those years after \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> and \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, right? Another big hit and the film you reference in your title, \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. You know, after that, you wanted nothing more than to be an actor, but pretty quickly, like within a few years, the roles, the calls, they just stopped.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you know, my career went south rather quickly. I mean, you would think, you know, to start at 12 years old and having done \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> and \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, too, hugely popular movies, that I would have a very bright future. But by the time I turned 18 years old, when everybody is very optimistic on what their path would look like, mine looked very different.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, and I didn’t really know, you know, what I would do. But there was one thing I was sure of, was that I wanted to be an actor. In fact, I was only 13 when I knew I wanted to be an actor for the rest of my life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, those years were very hard. But luckily, you know, I never forgot what inspired me, because every time I got dejected… I would go to the movie theater and I would watch a great movie, a great performance by an actor. I would be totally immersed in it and I would walk out feeling so motivated and I’ll go back home, lock myself in the room and start playing out those scenes that I love, kind of reenact, kind of put myself in that character’s shoes and try to, you know, and have my own moment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think it’s the movie theater that really kept my passion alive all these years. But they were not easy years. It wasn’t a short time. It was a very long time. I call them the quiet years in my book.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and then they last about 30 years. I was struck by the story of you talking about hitting puberty and your voice changing, but not in the way that most people’s voices change.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I remember when I had to go back to public school because I wasn’t working anymore. And I would, you know, the first three days I would show up at the cafeteria and I didn’t have any friends and I felt so alone. And I felt like just because of my fame in the movies that I had done, I felt everyone was watching me. Maybe they weren’t, but it felt like that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I lasted no more than three days, and then I would get in my car and then just then every lunchtime I would go to McDonald’s. I would go to the drive-thru and order a hamburger, french fries and a Coke, and the lady that works there would always say, “Oh, thank you, ma’am. Please pull up to the first window.” It was always “ma’am.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, I realized that I sound like — yeah, I sound very different than I imagined. And then I would go back the next day and I would try to speak a little bit lower voice. “Hey, yes, uh…”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> “Can I have a hamburger, french fries and a Coke, please?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it will be the same thing: “Thank you, ma’am. Please pull up to the first window.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> All right, you said your voice went higher when you were eating.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> But you know, it’s interesting because I remember there’s a story that I tell in the book. This was like after Michael Jackson had come to visit \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em> and he invited all of us to his Victory Tour. And one day, just out of the blue, I got a call from him and my brother picked it up and I was in the other room and he screamed really loud, “Ke! Some girl is looking for you!”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, and, uh, and I just realized, I guess that’s the, you know, that’s the, um, uh, little thing that Michael Jackson and I have in common, which sound a bit different.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The other thing that you did that I think also speaks to the struggle of that time is you changed your name to Jonathan. And can you also tell the story about sort of the awkwardness of seeing your former castmate from \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, Sean Astin, who asks you about changing your name?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, uh, I was 18 years old and I just got naturalized, so I was going to become an American citizen. Uh, so, you know, I’m filling out all these paperwork and it was at the same time my manager had suggested for some time that I should change to a more American-sounding name, and also it didn’t sound like a bad idea at that time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because every time I would walk into a casting room, my fame and my name would always walk in before I did. And I felt like my past was holding me back. It wasn’t helping me in any way. It was kind of hindering me from getting the opportunities that I wanted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I thought, yeah, it sounds like a great idea. So that’s what I did. I mean, honestly, at that point in my life, I would have done anything to change the status quo.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because everywhere I look, everyone was doing so well, my co-stars from \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, Sean Astin, Corey Feldman, and all the child actors that I grew up with. They were all doing movies and TV shows, one after the other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And there was one moment when I walked on the set of \u003cem>Encino Man\u003c/em>, and Sean was the star of that movie. I had a very small role, and we met. And that was — I mean, he didn’t know that I had changed my name. So he kind of looked at me. I mean, he was still the same Sean that I remember. He was very warm, gave me a big hug. And then he asked, “Jonathan? Like, when did that happen?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I go, “Yeah, you know, I go by that now.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And he was so sweet. And he said, “You will always be Ke to me.” Uh, and I remember that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Well, the Discord user Turd writes, “Kwan is a really great person. He’s so positive and delighted despite having to deal with many challenges. He never seems bitter about his setbacks. What an inspiration.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Another listener on Discord writes, “Kwan was great in \u003cem>Loki\u003c/em>, very cool to see him pop up there.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ke, I understand when you were sort of first presented with the idea of writing a memoir, your impulse was to say no. Why?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Oh, yes. I mean, you know, I never shared my own personal struggles with anyone. In fact, there are so many stories in this book that I never shared, not even with my wife or my family until now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, it was just how I was raised. Uh, I grew up in a very traditional Chinese-value family. None of us share our feelings with each other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, I thought, you know, during the whole awards season of \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>, first time coming back, there were a lot of personal questions that I was being asked, but I was also very careful in answering them. I just opened the door a little bit, just to allow people a glimpse of what I had went through.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But writing a memoir is completely different. And I knew that if I were to do this, I would have to be very candid, uh, and share everything. And just the thought of that scared — scared me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, but every time I’ve met so many fans on the streets and at different events, and they’ve always told me that my story really resonated with them and it helped them through a difficult time. And I just thought that, well, you know, if I can do this and play a small role in helping, you know, people who are struggling, if I can help them, give them strength and courage, and also help them feel a little less alone, then this entire journey will be worthwhile.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Why did it scare you? I mean, I know you say there were stories that you never shared with people close to you. But why did that scare you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I think I had such huge success at a very young age. And then not long after that, I felt like a failure. And I really kept that to myself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I felt my best years were behind me. And honestly, Mina, it’s one of the worst feelings you can have when you are 18 years old or when you’re in your early twenties, to feel like, wow, you know, your best years are behind you rather than, you know, to have something to look forward to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So there were a lot of those feelings that I had during the quiet years that I didn’t want people to know about. I wanted people to see, you know, the happier side of me. Those were, those were really difficult days that… that I didn’t know that I would have the strength to share.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Listeners, what do you want to ask or tell Ke Huy Quan? What parts of Ke’s story feel similar to yours or resonate with you? Did you see his Oscar speech? Have you struggled to hold onto a dream? The email address is forum@kqed.org. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Chris writes, “What was it like as one of the earliest young Asian-American actors? It must have been hard balancing our Asian-American career expectations with stardom and Hollywood in that era.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ke, did you also, you know, feel pressure? Like, did you feel like you had sort of career expectations from your family and so on that so many Asian-American kids say that they experience?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Oh, yes. I mean, when you hit it big at such a young age, I mean, it’s understandable that your family and all your friends and, you know, and the public expect you to — you would go on to have this incredible career.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And also, back then, I mean, there were not a lot of us working in Hollywood. So I felt really proud when people in our community would come up to me and say, “Wow, you know, I went to school, people call me Short Round, people call me Data.” That was, you know, that made me feel good.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So there’s that pressure, but also the same, I mean, I started out so young, honestly. I didn’t think much of it. It was not until years later did I really understand, one, how lucky I was, what I was going through, but also, I just really wanted to, I guess because of my background, because of where my journey started as a refugee and all of that. So to get that validation from everyone made me feel great.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. The after. Can you talk about that moment when you decided you couldn’t do auditions anymore? You tell the story about trying to get this part as a Viet Cong soldier, and then sort of realize how desperately you wanted a part that just had two…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Lines. Yeah, that decision didn’t come easily and it wasn’t, you know, spontaneous or, you know, it was just like, okay, one day I just decided that I don’t want to do this anymore. It’s over a span of many, many years of just doing nothing, waiting by the phone to ring.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, I guess the best way I can describe it is… I felt like the world was still spinning. Everyone was moving forward at a very fast pace while I was just standing still.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There were so many, many sleepless nights staring up at the ceiling, wondering if my tomorrow will be better than today. And it’s really disheartening when you go to an audition after nine months, a year, and just everything rides on that one audition and hoping to land it. And when you get rejected again, and again, and again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then finally, I think what really broke was in 1993, when I auditioned for that, you know, that Viet Cong role. Didn’t have a character name. It had two lines. Again, there were like 50 other Asian actors fighting for this little, little tiny role. And when I didn’t even get that, then I really started to question, “Wait, do I still wanna do this? Like, how long do I wanna continue down this path when I didn’t see the light at the end of the tunnel?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it was the hardest — one of the hardest decisions I’ve ever made.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it definitely sounded that way. And then you, you know, tried to stay in the world, but just not in acting specifically, right? You go to USC and get a film degree. You, you know, learn about stunt roles and so on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, up until that point, you know, all I knew, you know, was about the movie business is from an actor’s point of view. I didn’t know, like, what a costume designer did or cinematography or editor. I didn’t understand what it takes to put a movie together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so now here I am. There are no more acting jobs. What am I going to do? I didn’t know how to do anything else. I was 25. So it’s been seven years since high school, and I felt like I don’t know a lot and I need to go back to school.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I didn’t want to leave this industry, so the only thing that made sense to me was film school. Luckily, when I applied, I got in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> He was a refugee from Vietnam who shot to stardom as Short Round in \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> when he was 12, but after quick success, his acting career ground to a halt. And he’s talking about those decades of painful self-doubt and few roles. He shares them in a new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>, and we’ll have more with him and with you, listeners, after the break. Stay with us. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. We’re talking this hour with Academy Award-winning actor Ke Huy Quan, who won for 2022’s \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>. He has a new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em> about his years — very early of quick success as Short Round in \u003cem>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom\u003c/em> and Data in \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>. But then as he grew older, the roles dried up, but him never giving up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And listeners, what are your questions for Ke about his work, his life, his story? Did you — do you remember his Oscar speech? And does it make you think about the dreams that you have struggled to hold onto or that you’ve kept alive? 866-733-6786, the number. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, email forum@kqed.org.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jeremy in San Francisco writes, “Your role in \u003cem>Zootopia 2\u003c/em> really inspired me. I was shocked by how impactful that movie was. After hearing more about your story, I’m wondering if you see parallels between Gary the Snake and your life.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Talk about doing Gary the Snake for \u003cem>Zootopia 2\u003c/em>. Too cute. It’s actually a film that my kids absolutely loved as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I love that movie. I’m so proud of it. I still remember the day I went into a Disney Animation building to meet with the creative team, and when they offered me the role, I really, you know, I was so thrilled because I was a big fan of the first one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in terms of do I see any parallels between myself and Gary the Snake? I mean, he’s so different in ways where he looks, you know, very intimidating because he’s a, you know, venomous pit viper. I don’t think I look intimidating at all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I think what we do share in common is having respect and kindness for the people around us. You know, he’s a big, goofy guy with a big heart, and that’s how I kind of like to think of myself that way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Also, you know, he has to deal with stigma, he has to try to reunite with his family, and tries to feel whole again. We actually have a clip from the film, you know, where he’s trying to explain that he’s trying to change the narrative about himself and reunite with his family before the character Nick Wilde, not realizing this, bops him on the head. Let’s hear it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> This is our only chance to set things right. And when I do, my family will finally be able to come home.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I am here! Cops and Wiles. Dream team. We got him. So good. I love that movie so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You know, so it was the 2018 film \u003cem>Crazy Rich Asians\u003c/em>, right, that sort of reignites your desire to act again? Because before the book, we were talking about how you made the decision just to stop doing it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, it’s all true. I mean, also, like, a few years prior to the movie came out, I mean, I started to see the landscape in Hollywood started changing. You know, you would have a wonderful, successful show called \u003cem>Fresh Off the Boat\u003c/em> on ABC. And, you know, more and more Asian actors were playing no longer like a one-dimensional buttered-Joe kind of character, but they’re more nuanced, you know, contributing to the stories.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I was beginning to see a lot of that, but I didn’t think much of it. I mean, I thought I had buried my, you know, the acting bug for many years. I thought that chapter of my life was over.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It was not until when I was in that movie theater on opening weekend and, you know, the room was filled with people, all kinds of people. And in the very beginning, I enjoyed it. I was watching it as if you would watch it as an audience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But somewhere along the line, this tiny thought started creeping into my head. And I go, “Wow, wouldn’t it be great if I was up there with them instead of here hearing the audience watching?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And really, that was the moment. The idea of getting back to acting started percolating. And I didn’t make the decision right away. I mean, it would be another year before I decided to finally do it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and you say that your wife didn’t know you as an actor and that, you know, you actually sort of voiced carefully, you know, that desire to act again to her.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah. When we met, you know, she didn’t know me as an actor. She knew me as this, in fact, aspiring filmmaker. I graduated from USC. I was working for Wong Kar-wai, and I wanted to, you know, I was thinking that, oh, once when I get enough experience, I’m going to go out and direct my own film.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, and she believed that. She said, “You’re going to make a great filmmaker one day.” Uh, and she’s been so supportive, whatever I want to do. She’s always like my biggest cheering squad, you know, uh, and, and she would say, “Well, if you want to go for it.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that was how that was, how it really began. So when I sat her down and I said, “Hey, what do you think about if I would act again?” I think it really surprised her because we never, we never ever talked about that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In fact, even… you know, the year leading up to that conversation, it was all in my head. I never said it out loud. But once when she found out that I was serious, she was so supportive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. You, um, you also say you thought about your father, who you dedicate this book to. You know, we hear you give tribute to your mother in your Oscar speech. Why did you dedicate this book to your dad?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> You know, a lot of people know my story as, you know, someone who never gives up. And, you know, it’s pretty remarkable. But when I look — when I sat down to write this book, I realized that it was actually my father who had set that example all his life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When you think about it, I mean, it wasn’t one attempt to flee Vietnam. It was three, a total of three attempts. He faced obstacle after obstacle to get our entire family out and never gave up until he successfully did it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when he came here, he himself personally was faced with the most challenging thing in his life. He had a massive stroke. And even then, he did not give up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In fact, when he took his very last breath, his brain gave out before his heart did. And that’s one of the reasons why I titled this book, \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. To me, it was a nice way to honor his legacy and also everything that he has done for me and my family. He has given us a chance at life, and I could not have been more grateful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And writing this book was so, you know, not only was it an emotional roller coaster, but it was also wonderful because I got to walk alongside him once again. It was as if he came alive. And to be able to memorialize him on these pages is something that I’m very proud of.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I actually want to just play one last clip from your Oscar speech, where you give tribute to Echo and also to that persistence.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I owe everything to the love of my life, my wife, Echo, who…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Who month after month, year after year for 20 years told me that one day, one day my time will come. Dreams are something you have to believe in. I almost gave up on mine. To all of you out there, please keep your dreams alive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Oh, it still gets me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It always gets me too. Your speech, really, really memorable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bob writes, “\u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em> is one of my favorite movies ever. And the character Waymond has so much heart. Thanks so much.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Viewers who want to know more about the history of Asian Americans in film should check out the documentary \u003cem>Slaying the Dragon\u003c/em>, which my partner teaches in her Asian American culture class.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When you got the part of Waymond, you say you felt like the part was written for you. How so, Ke?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> You know, when I first read the script, I mean, I was blown away by how good it was, but it was also something that I always wanted to read. I was so familiar with reading scripts where, if there was an Asian character, he would only appear, you know, sporadically across the pages. And more often than not, we’re asked to fit into a character rather than something that is written that feels authentic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But here I am reading this, it felt like it was written for me because I understood every version of this character and everything that he was saying, you know, every disappointment, every rejection has led you to this moment. Don’t let anything take you away from it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, I… I knew where those words come from, and every version of Waymond was my life. It felt like I had spent the last 30 years preparing for this role, and here it was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, and that’s why I — when I — put that script down, I wanted this more than anything in my entire life. I don’t think I ever wanted anything as much as I did.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> came along, I didn’t go searching to be an actor. I didn’t think that I would, you know, it was just… You’d never even been in a movie theater before.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Never been in a movie theater. The last thing on my mind was pursuing acting. And all of a sudden, I was just thrown into this incredible world of movie making.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, but now, flash forward 40 years later, I just turned 50. And here was an opportunity that I thought was made for me, but yet I hadn’t done it in 25 years. So it’s very natural for me to think, yeah, you want it. So what are they going to give it to you? You know, I mean.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yeah, you were, you know, a lot of times, I felt like, yeah, you were really good as a kid, but that was a long, long time ago. You don’t even know if you have what it takes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When I, when I stepped back, my goal was only to have like a small role in maybe a, you know, as a series regular, uh, that I could do week after week and have that steady paycheck. Uh, that was, that was it. Uh, and this felt so impossible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> But you got it, and it really is — many listeners are commenting on that film and also many listeners are also commenting on sort of just your warmth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Okay, let me remind listeners you’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Halina in Fremont is on the line. Halina, go ahead.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> Thank you very much. Hi, Ke. I’m so fascinated by your story. My husband and I, we are first-generation Chinese immigrants, so I understand quite of the experience you shared. Not as harsh as yours, but the main thing I want to share with you is that your story, your theory, your ethic of work not only resonated with the same age, same group, but also inspiring the new generation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>My daughter was born here, grew up here. She’s a college student in journalism major. She read through all the things about you. We went to — she goes to see the movie herself as well, so she’s absolutely a lover of the movie.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And your work ethic, the whole experience you shared with the audience, inspired her so much. Because she is also trying to get into the reporting and entertainment industry. It’s not easy for young people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But she told me that, you know what, I listened to so many of my quote-unquote heroes talking about how they struggle, how they survive, how do they make all the effort. I don’t think I have any other choice. I need to continue pushing through until one day I have a breakthrough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I want to share with you. Continue.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> That’s so sweet. Thank you for sharing that. I think that’s what gives me the greatest joy, is I didn’t know that my story would resonate with so many people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And ever since the book came out, the reception has been really positive, and I’ve met and gotten, you know, many messages saying that they see themselves in my story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, and that was my — that’s what I was hoping for when I set out to write this book. So thank you for sharing that. That really means a lot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The listener on Discord writes, “I think for everyone who saw it, Ke’s Oscar speech created a moment where he celebrated his perseverance while questioning your own. Yes, there are things in life I wish I’d kept at, yet others I wish had given up sooner. It was a real self-mirror moment.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Another listener in San Francisco writes, “Ke, after your success with \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>, will there continue to be more opportunities for Asian-American actors? Where does he want his career to go from here?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s interesting, right? Because, so yes, what are you seeing with regard to the landscape for Asian-American actors, but also how do you think about the question now? Because there is no guarantee that work will continue for you either, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So how do you think about that question of where you want your career to go from here, or handling an industry where there are no guarantees?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yes, that’s a big question. Here’s the difference between me now and the 30-year-old, you know, me. I’m no longer afraid of failure. It would no longer define me. I had failed before, I had gotten back up. And I’ve tried and I’ve tried and I’ve tried again. And here I am.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But in terms of — and you’re absolutely right, I mean, who knows what the next five, ten years entail? And the truth is, we have made a lot of progress in the last 10, 15 years. There have been a lot of wonderful movies that portrayed our community accurately and authentically and all of that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But moving forward, I’m a little wary just of how everything that has happened in the last year, year and a half. I feel like, you know, all the progress that we have made, we have taken a couple of steps back, and I’m looking — I’m curious to see where this is all going to go.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But here’s what I want to say. I wouldn’t be here if there wasn’t all these incredible — this incredible generation of young people who are really so outspoken, demand a change, they’re very vocal about what they want to see, what they wanted it to be represented up on the screen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think we need to continue that. But yeah, I don’t know. That’s a great question.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I’ve been wondering myself about how the landscape is still right now in Hollywood.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But in the meantime, thank you so much for putting all of this about yourself out in the world after describing sort of the struggles that you had to think about that and do that, Ke. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The book is \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>, and my guest is Ke Huy Quan. And I want to thank Jared Sport for producing this segment, and as always, to our listeners for sharing their own stories and questions and struggles and dreams.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And also I want to wish our former host, longtime host Michael Krasny, a happy birthday today. You’ve been listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Announcer:\u003c/strong> Funds for the production of \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> are provided by the Jenerosity Family Fund and the members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. When Ke Huy Quan walked on stage in 2023 to accept the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor in \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>, he did not hold back tears.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Thank you. My mom is 84 years old and she’s at home watching. Mom, I just won an Oscar.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Thank you. My mom is 84 years old and she’s at home watching. Mom, I just won an Oscar.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> For Quan, his path to Hollywood’s highest honor included decades of painful self-doubt and very few roles, this after a big-screen debut in the ’80s at the age of 12 as Short Round in \u003cem>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It’s a journey Quan chronicles in his new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. And he joins me now. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, Ke.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Mina, hey, thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Oh, it’s so wonderful to have you and to have been able to learn so much about your life, especially starting out as the kid that I, you know, maybe the first Asian kid actor I ever saw in a film, Short Round.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Ha, ha, ha! Well, I’m very proud of that. I don’t know if that’s a good thing or not. It just goes to show you how underrepresented we were back then.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you write actually in your book that it was a moment when you got that part, when your life split into a clear before and after. First, can you just talk about getting that part in 1983? Because it was basically accidental, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yes, it was. It was only a few years since we immigrated to Chinatown, Los Angeles, and I was busy acclimating into this new life, learning this new language. And we were ESL students, so we would go on every Saturday morning to get extra help with vocabulary and reading comprehension.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and you were feeling like, so David signs up to do this and you are feeling like he’s not really bringing it, right? What the casting directors are asking for, so you start coaching—\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and you were feeling like, so David signs up to do this and you are feeling like he’s not really bringing it, right? What the casting directors are asking for, so you start coaching—\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> In front of the casting directors? Here’s the thing. It actually came out of my love for my brother. We would watch TV and reenact scenes together, so I know how good he can be. But being in front of the camera, I felt like he was a little nervous and he was holding back. And the casting directors weren’t seeing him the way I see him.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> In front of the casting directors? Here’s the thing. It actually came out of my love for my brother. We would watch TV and reenact scenes together, so I know how good he can be. But being in front of the camera, I felt like he was a little nervous and he was holding back. And the casting directors weren’t seeing him the way I see him.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And thinking that they don’t understand Cantonese, so I just jumped out of the chair and started screaming at him, you know, in Cantonese, kind of directing him what to do. And unbeknownst to me, their attention started to turn to me. So when my brother finished, they asked me if I would stay behind and read for them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And thinking that they don’t understand Cantonese, so I just jumped out of the chair and started screaming at him, you know, in Cantonese, kind of directing him what to do. And unbeknownst to me, their attention started to turn to me. So when my brother finished, they asked me if I would stay behind and read for them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Incredible. And then, of course, you know, they knew right then that they had their Short Round. And you also talk about auditioning in front of Steven Spielberg and Harrison Ford and George Lucas and how they really embraced you as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Incredible. And then, of course, you know, they knew right then that they had their Short Round. And you also talk about auditioning in front of Steven Spielberg and Harrison Ford and George Lucas and how they really embraced you as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But this was not an experience that you had had leading up to this. Let’s talk about the before, living in post-war Vietnam and needing to flee with your family in 1977. Why did you make that decision? What was happening? Or why did your parents make that decision?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But this was not an experience that you had had leading up to this. Let’s talk about the before, living in post-war Vietnam and needing to flee with your family in 1977. Why did you make that decision? What was happening? Or why did your parents make that decision?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Well, you know, this is 1977, post-Vietnam War, and our lives prior to that were really good. I mean, my parents were successful middle-class business people, and they had every intention of building a life for all of us there. And when that future looked bleak, they had no choice but to make the incredibly difficult decision to get all of us out of there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Well, you know, this is 1977, post-Vietnam War, and our lives prior to that were really good. I mean, my parents were successful middle-class business people, and they had every intention of building a life for all of us there. And when that future looked bleak, they had no choice but to make the incredibly difficult decision to get all of us out of there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Uh, and it was, uh, it was really traumatic. I was only seven years old. I didn’t know what was going on. I wasn’t given any information. Uh, all I knew was one day I was playing with my little brother and the next, being woken up in the middle of the night, being carried over my dad’s shoulder and carried into a waiting car.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Uh, and it was, uh, it was really traumatic. I was only seven years old. I didn’t know what was going on. I wasn’t given any information. Uh, all I knew was one day I was playing with my little brother and the next, being woken up in the middle of the night, being carried over my dad’s shoulder and carried into a waiting car.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And that was our very first attempt to escape. We made a total of three attempts. The first two were unsuccessful and landed me in jail. So by the time I turned eight, I had spent, you know, the first time three weeks, the second time three months in jail, and it was not until the third attempt, then as long as you can pay, you would have a spot on the ship and everything was out in the open.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And that was our very first attempt to escape. We made a total of three attempts. The first two were unsuccessful and landed me in jail. So by the time I turned eight, I had spent, you know, the first time three weeks, the second time three months in jail, and it was not until the third attempt, then as long as you can pay, you would have a spot on the ship and everything was out in the open.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and your family’s savings have been confiscated when you were arrested, and incredibly, spending that much time in jail as a little kid. But as you say, he gets the money to secure passage, basically in the cargo hold of a boat, by borrowing it. And you’re with 3,000 others packed in, experiencing bouts of seasickness and so on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and your family’s savings have been confiscated when you were arrested, and incredibly, spending that much time in jail as a little kid. But as you say, he gets the money to secure passage, basically in the cargo hold of a boat, by borrowing it. And you’re with 3,000 others packed in, experiencing bouts of seasickness and so on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But talk about when you finally make it to Hong Kong. The country won’t take you in, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But talk about when you finally make it to Hong Kong. The country won’t take you in, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah. After we spent seven treacherous days, you know, out in the South China Sea — you understand, this was winter. Almost all of us were city people, never been on a boat before, so those waves were big and the boat was rocking, like, really violently. Pretty much every single one of us were vomiting left and right.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah. After we spent seven treacherous days, you know, out in the South China Sea — you understand, this was winter. Almost all of us were city people, never been on a boat before, so those waves were big and the boat was rocking, like, really violently. Pretty much every single one of us were vomiting left and right.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And when we finally made it to Hong Kong, we thought that, wow, we had made it now. You know, everything’s gonna be all right. But once we got there, we got the terrible news that the Hong Kong government would not allow us to come on board. And we were desperate. We were hungry. The sanitation was really awful.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And when we finally made it to Hong Kong, we thought that, wow, we had made it now. You know, everything’s gonna be all right. But once we got there, we got the terrible news that the Hong Kong government would not allow us to come on board. And we were desperate. We were hungry. The sanitation was really awful.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And we ended up spending more than a month on the shore of Hong Kong, while this incredible organization called United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, UNHCR, stepped in and worked with countries all over the world to convince Hong Kong that if they were to allow us to come ashore, that they would help to get us off of their hands.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And we ended up spending more than a month on the shore of Hong Kong, while this incredible organization called United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, UNHCR, stepped in and worked with countries all over the world to convince Hong Kong that if they were to allow us to come ashore, that they would help to get us off of their hands.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And that’s what happened. And we ended up spending more than a year in a refugee camp.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And that’s what happened. And we ended up spending more than a year in a refugee camp.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to invite listeners into the conversation. Listen, we’re talking with Ke Huy Quan, Academy Award-winning actor for \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em> and now the author of a new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. Maybe you remember seeing him in \u003cem>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom\u003c/em> or as Data in \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, or are familiar with his recent voicing of Gary De’Snake in \u003cem>Zootopia 2\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to invite listeners into the conversation. Listen, we’re talking with Ke Huy Quan, Academy Award-winning actor for \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em> and now the author of a new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. Maybe you remember seeing him in \u003cem>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom\u003c/em> or as Data in \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, or are familiar with his recent voicing of Gary De’Snake in \u003cem>Zootopia 2\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Tell us what your questions are for Ke, what you want to say, what your favorite movies of his are or his work, or what parts of Ke’s story resonate with you, maybe feel similar to yours. You can email forum@kqed.org, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786. Again, that’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Tell us what your questions are for Ke, what you want to say, what your favorite movies of his are or his work, or what parts of Ke’s story resonate with you, maybe feel similar to yours. You can email forum@kqed.org, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786. Again, that’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, one of the stories of the most painful memories of rejection in Hong Kong that really struck me was when you actually go to your aunt’s home to visit, to have a meal with her and her family. Can you talk about what happened there?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, one of the stories of the most painful memories of rejection in Hong Kong that really struck me was when you actually go to your aunt’s home to visit, to have a meal with her and her family. Can you talk about what happened there?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yes. My mom was born in Hong Kong, so her family lives in Hong Kong. And one day, you know, the refugee camp that we stayed in, we were allowed to go in and out. My older siblings were allowed to go work, so they were all supporting themselves.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yes. My mom was born in Hong Kong, so her family lives in Hong Kong. And one day, you know, the refugee camp that we stayed in, we were allowed to go in and out. My older siblings were allowed to go work, so they were all supporting themselves.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And being the youngest of six with my dad, I didn’t have much to do. So one day when I found out that my aunt invited me and my sister to a home to have dinner, I was so excited. My dad bought me a brand-new outfit, and I hadn’t had a home-cooked meal in, you know, months. And here I am, you know, getting invited to my mom’s sister, older sister’s apartment. And I thought that, you know, she looked like my mom and I thought everything was going to be great.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And being the youngest of six with my dad, I didn’t have much to do. So one day when I found out that my aunt invited me and my sister to a home to have dinner, I was so excited. My dad bought me a brand-new outfit, and I hadn’t had a home-cooked meal in, you know, months. And here I am, you know, getting invited to my mom’s sister, older sister’s apartment. And I thought that, you know, she looked like my mom and I thought everything was going to be great.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When I sat down to have dinner, I didn’t understand what the Hong Kong culture was like. Everybody had their own customized pair of chopsticks with their name on it. But I was so excited, I was hungry. I sat and started eating and literally didn’t know that I was actually using my cousin’s pair of chopsticks.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When I sat down to have dinner, I didn’t understand what the Hong Kong culture was like. Everybody had their own customized pair of chopsticks with their name on it. But I was so excited, I was hungry. I sat and started eating and literally didn’t know that I was actually using my cousin’s pair of chopsticks.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I was called out on it right away. And I witnessed my aunt took the very same pair of chopsticks that I had used into the kitchen, washed it extensively, and poured hot boiling water over it. And at that age, I didn’t understand why she did that. I thought we were family.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I was called out on it right away. And I witnessed my aunt took the very same pair of chopsticks that I had used into the kitchen, washed it extensively, and poured hot boiling water over it. And at that age, I didn’t understand why she did that. I thought we were family.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But, of course, many years later, uh… I understand. I don’t think she was trying to hurt me in any other way, but it was just this fear that everyone had, you know, we were refugees, and there was that stigma that comes with it. And because of little information that was known about all of us, I mean, she thought that we would carry disease. And, yeah, it was — it was, you know, a moment that I never forgot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But, of course, many years later, uh… I understand. I don’t think she was trying to hurt me in any other way, but it was just this fear that everyone had, you know, we were refugees, and there was that stigma that comes with it. And because of little information that was known about all of us, I mean, she thought that we would carry disease. And, yeah, it was — it was, you know, a moment that I never forgot.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, it’s a moment you never got — you finally reunite with your mom and siblings in Los Angeles’ Chinatown in ’79. They had gone ahead and you had been separated from them. But how does that experience shape your sort of sense of self or your place in the world early on? And we’re coming up on a break. Sorry about that, Ke, but we just have about 30 seconds.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, it’s a moment you never got — you finally reunite with your mom and siblings in Los Angeles’ Chinatown in ’79. They had gone ahead and you had been separated from them. But how does that experience shape your sort of sense of self or your place in the world early on? And we’re coming up on a break. Sorry about that, Ke, but we just have about 30 seconds.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Uh, it really, you know, when I sat down and write this book, it really made me confront my own identity, uh, and as a refugee and what that label carried. And for so many years, I was really ashamed of it. Um, I didn’t know, you know, I think it really shaped who I am today.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Uh, it really, you know, when I sat down and write this book, it really made me confront my own identity, uh, and as a refugee and what that label carried. And for so many years, I was really ashamed of it. Um, I didn’t know, you know, I think it really shaped who I am today.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we’re talking with Ke Huy Quan. And so are you, listeners, at 866-733-6786, on our social channels at KQED Forum, and you can email Forum at kqed.org. More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we’re talking with Ke Huy Quan. And so are you, listeners, at 866-733-6786, on our social channels at KQED Forum, and you can email Forum at kqed.org. More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. We’re talking this hour with actor Ke Huy Quan, who played Waymond in 2022’s \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>, which he won the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor. He has a new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. And here’s a clip of a press interview Ke gave in 1984 about getting the part of Short Round in \u003cem>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. We’re talking this hour with actor Ke Huy Quan, who played Waymond in 2022’s \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>, which he won the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor. He has a new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. And here’s a clip of a press interview Ke gave in 1984 about getting the part of Short Round in \u003cem>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I think I changed a lot and I was a bold people and now I get to make the movie. Do you think you’ve been very lucky? Yes, definitely. I think I’m very lucky, and I’m number seven in my family. That’s a lucky number.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I think I changed a lot and I was a bold people and now I get to make the movie. Do you think you’ve been very lucky? Yes, definitely. I think I’m very lucky, and I’m number seven in my family. That’s a lucky number.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What’s it like to hear that, Ke, or voice?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What’s it like to hear that, Ke, or voice?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I’m so precocious. And I think that’s how I got the role too, I’m sure.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I’m so precocious. And I think that’s how I got the role too, I’m sure.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That played a big part. Well, we’ve got a call coming in from Lubna in Palo Alto. Lubna, join us. You’re on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That played a big part. Well, we’ve got a call coming in from Lubna in Palo Alto. Lubna, join us. You’re on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much. I wanted to just congratulate the guest on his success and just overcoming so much in his life and being successful. It’s wonderful.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much. I wanted to just congratulate the guest on his success and just overcoming so much in his life and being successful. It’s wonderful.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We are of South Asian descent, and my son is just embarking on his acting career after graduating from school, college. And we know that Brown people are having a moment. But we don’t know how long this moment will last. And we were just wondering, what advice do you have for someone just starting out, you know, Indian-Pakistani descent, trying to land roles and get noticed and, you know, where, of course, still the majority of roles do not go to people of minority descent?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We are of South Asian descent, and my son is just embarking on his acting career after graduating from school, college. And we know that Brown people are having a moment. But we don’t know how long this moment will last. And we were just wondering, what advice do you have for someone just starting out, you know, Indian-Pakistani descent, trying to land roles and get noticed and, you know, where, of course, still the majority of roles do not go to people of minority descent?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Great question. Thanks for calling in. Yeah, I mean, you know, if I’m being honest, it is very difficult. And my advice is that you have to be prepared for a lot of rejections. And make sure that the belief you have in yourself doesn’t waver. And work really hard. Don’t give up and don’t let anybody… you know, tell you anything different.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Great question. Thanks for calling in. Yeah, I mean, you know, if I’m being honest, it is very difficult. And my advice is that you have to be prepared for a lot of rejections. And make sure that the belief you have in yourself doesn’t waver. And work really hard. Don’t give up and don’t let anybody… you know, tell you anything different.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think it’s really important. If you look at my story, you know, I wouldn’t be here talking to you if I didn’t persevere. A lot of times, you know, we don’t know what’s right around the corner. But if we stop, we’ll never see it. So we have to always keep going and work really hard and be patient because, you know, I believe that everyone — you know, everyone has their own time and that time will come one day.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think it’s really important. If you look at my story, you know, I wouldn’t be here talking to you if I didn’t persevere. A lot of times, you know, we don’t know what’s right around the corner. But if we stop, we’ll never see it. So we have to always keep going and work really hard and be patient because, you know, I believe that everyone — you know, everyone has their own time and that time will come one day.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, talk about what happened in those years after \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> and \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, right? Another big hit and the film you reference in your title, \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. You know, after that, you wanted nothing more than to be an actor, but pretty quickly, like within a few years, the roles, the calls, they just stopped.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, talk about what happened in those years after \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> and \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, right? Another big hit and the film you reference in your title, \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. You know, after that, you wanted nothing more than to be an actor, but pretty quickly, like within a few years, the roles, the calls, they just stopped.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you know, my career went south rather quickly. I mean, you would think, you know, to start at 12 years old and having done \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> and \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, too, hugely popular movies, that I would have a very bright future. But by the time I turned 18 years old, when everybody is very optimistic on what their path would look like, mine looked very different.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you know, my career went south rather quickly. I mean, you would think, you know, to start at 12 years old and having done \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> and \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, too, hugely popular movies, that I would have a very bright future. But by the time I turned 18 years old, when everybody is very optimistic on what their path would look like, mine looked very different.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Um, and I didn’t really know, you know, what I would do. But there was one thing I was sure of, was that I wanted to be an actor. In fact, I was only 13 when I knew I wanted to be an actor for the rest of my life.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Um, and I didn’t really know, you know, what I would do. But there was one thing I was sure of, was that I wanted to be an actor. In fact, I was only 13 when I knew I wanted to be an actor for the rest of my life.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Um, those years were very hard. But luckily, you know, I never forgot what inspired me, because every time I got dejected… I would go to the movie theater and I would watch a great movie, a great performance by an actor. I would be totally immersed in it and I would walk out feeling so motivated and I’ll go back home, lock myself in the room and start playing out those scenes that I love, kind of reenact, kind of put myself in that character’s shoes and try to, you know, and have my own moment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Um, those years were very hard. But luckily, you know, I never forgot what inspired me, because every time I got dejected… I would go to the movie theater and I would watch a great movie, a great performance by an actor. I would be totally immersed in it and I would walk out feeling so motivated and I’ll go back home, lock myself in the room and start playing out those scenes that I love, kind of reenact, kind of put myself in that character’s shoes and try to, you know, and have my own moment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think it’s the movie theater that really kept my passion alive all these years. But they were not easy years. It wasn’t a short time. It was a very long time. I call them the quiet years in my book.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think it’s the movie theater that really kept my passion alive all these years. But they were not easy years. It wasn’t a short time. It was a very long time. I call them the quiet years in my book.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and then they last about 30 years. I was struck by the story of you talking about hitting puberty and your voice changing, but not in the way that most people’s voices change.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and then they last about 30 years. I was struck by the story of you talking about hitting puberty and your voice changing, but not in the way that most people’s voices change.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I remember when I had to go back to public school because I wasn’t working anymore. And I would, you know, the first three days I would show up at the cafeteria and I didn’t have any friends and I felt so alone. And I felt like just because of my fame in the movies that I had done, I felt everyone was watching me. Maybe they weren’t, but it felt like that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I remember when I had to go back to public school because I wasn’t working anymore. And I would, you know, the first three days I would show up at the cafeteria and I didn’t have any friends and I felt so alone. And I felt like just because of my fame in the movies that I had done, I felt everyone was watching me. Maybe they weren’t, but it felt like that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I lasted no more than three days, and then I would get in my car and then just then every lunchtime I would go to McDonald’s. I would go to the drive-thru and order a hamburger, french fries and a Coke, and the lady that works there would always say, “Oh, thank you, ma’am. Please pull up to the first window.” It was always “ma’am.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I lasted no more than three days, and then I would get in my car and then just then every lunchtime I would go to McDonald’s. I would go to the drive-thru and order a hamburger, french fries and a Coke, and the lady that works there would always say, “Oh, thank you, ma’am. Please pull up to the first window.” It was always “ma’am.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And, you know, I realized that I sound like — yeah, I sound very different than I imagined. And then I would go back the next day and I would try to speak a little bit lower voice. “Hey, yes, uh…”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And, you know, I realized that I sound like — yeah, I sound very different than I imagined. And then I would go back the next day and I would try to speak a little bit lower voice. “Hey, yes, uh…”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> “Can I have a hamburger, french fries and a Coke, please?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> “Can I have a hamburger, french fries and a Coke, please?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it will be the same thing: “Thank you, ma’am. Please pull up to the first window.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And it will be the same thing: “Thank you, ma’am. Please pull up to the first window.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> All right, you said your voice went higher when you were eating.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> All right, you said your voice went higher when you were eating.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> But you know, it’s interesting because I remember there’s a story that I tell in the book. This was like after Michael Jackson had come to visit \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em> and he invited all of us to his Victory Tour. And one day, just out of the blue, I got a call from him and my brother picked it up and I was in the other room and he screamed really loud, “Ke! Some girl is looking for you!”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> But you know, it’s interesting because I remember there’s a story that I tell in the book. This was like after Michael Jackson had come to visit \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em> and he invited all of us to his Victory Tour. And one day, just out of the blue, I got a call from him and my brother picked it up and I was in the other room and he screamed really loud, “Ke! Some girl is looking for you!”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Uh, and, uh, and I just realized, I guess that’s the, you know, that’s the, um, uh, little thing that Michael Jackson and I have in common, which sound a bit different.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Uh, and, uh, and I just realized, I guess that’s the, you know, that’s the, um, uh, little thing that Michael Jackson and I have in common, which sound a bit different.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The other thing that you did that I think also speaks to the struggle of that time is you changed your name to Jonathan. And can you also tell the story about sort of the awkwardness of seeing your former castmate from \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, Sean Astin, who asks you about changing your name?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The other thing that you did that I think also speaks to the struggle of that time is you changed your name to Jonathan. And can you also tell the story about sort of the awkwardness of seeing your former castmate from \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, Sean Astin, who asks you about changing your name?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, uh, I was 18 years old and I just got naturalized, so I was going to become an American citizen. Uh, so, you know, I’m filling out all these paperwork and it was at the same time my manager had suggested for some time that I should change to a more American-sounding name, and also it didn’t sound like a bad idea at that time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, uh, I was 18 years old and I just got naturalized, so I was going to become an American citizen. Uh, so, you know, I’m filling out all these paperwork and it was at the same time my manager had suggested for some time that I should change to a more American-sounding name, and also it didn’t sound like a bad idea at that time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Because every time I would walk into a casting room, my fame and my name would always walk in before I did. And I felt like my past was holding me back. It wasn’t helping me in any way. It was kind of hindering me from getting the opportunities that I wanted.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Because every time I would walk into a casting room, my fame and my name would always walk in before I did. And I felt like my past was holding me back. It wasn’t helping me in any way. It was kind of hindering me from getting the opportunities that I wanted.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I thought, yeah, it sounds like a great idea. So that’s what I did. I mean, honestly, at that point in my life, I would have done anything to change the status quo.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I thought, yeah, it sounds like a great idea. So that’s what I did. I mean, honestly, at that point in my life, I would have done anything to change the status quo.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Because everywhere I look, everyone was doing so well, my co-stars from \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, Sean Astin, Corey Feldman, and all the child actors that I grew up with. They were all doing movies and TV shows, one after the other.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Because everywhere I look, everyone was doing so well, my co-stars from \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, Sean Astin, Corey Feldman, and all the child actors that I grew up with. They were all doing movies and TV shows, one after the other.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And there was one moment when I walked on the set of \u003cem>Encino Man\u003c/em>, and Sean was the star of that movie. I had a very small role, and we met. And that was — I mean, he didn’t know that I had changed my name. So he kind of looked at me. I mean, he was still the same Sean that I remember. He was very warm, gave me a big hug. And then he asked, “Jonathan? Like, when did that happen?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And there was one moment when I walked on the set of \u003cem>Encino Man\u003c/em>, and Sean was the star of that movie. I had a very small role, and we met. And that was — I mean, he didn’t know that I had changed my name. So he kind of looked at me. I mean, he was still the same Sean that I remember. He was very warm, gave me a big hug. And then he asked, “Jonathan? Like, when did that happen?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I go, “Yeah, you know, I go by that now.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I go, “Yeah, you know, I go by that now.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And he was so sweet. And he said, “You will always be Ke to me.” Uh, and I remember that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And he was so sweet. And he said, “You will always be Ke to me.” Uh, and I remember that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Well, the Discord user Turd writes, “Kwan is a really great person. He’s so positive and delighted despite having to deal with many challenges. He never seems bitter about his setbacks. What an inspiration.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Well, the Discord user Turd writes, “Kwan is a really great person. He’s so positive and delighted despite having to deal with many challenges. He never seems bitter about his setbacks. What an inspiration.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Another listener on Discord writes, “Kwan was great in \u003cem>Loki\u003c/em>, very cool to see him pop up there.”\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Another listener on Discord writes, “Kwan was great in \u003cem>Loki\u003c/em>, very cool to see him pop up there.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ke, I understand when you were sort of first presented with the idea of writing a memoir, your impulse was to say no. Why?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Ke, I understand when you were sort of first presented with the idea of writing a memoir, your impulse was to say no. Why?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Oh, yes. I mean, you know, I never shared my own personal struggles with anyone. In fact, there are so many stories in this book that I never shared, not even with my wife or my family until now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Oh, yes. I mean, you know, I never shared my own personal struggles with anyone. In fact, there are so many stories in this book that I never shared, not even with my wife or my family until now.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Uh, it was just how I was raised. Uh, I grew up in a very traditional Chinese-value family. None of us share our feelings with each other.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Uh, it was just how I was raised. Uh, I grew up in a very traditional Chinese-value family. None of us share our feelings with each other.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Um, I thought, you know, during the whole awards season of \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>, first time coming back, there were a lot of personal questions that I was being asked, but I was also very careful in answering them. I just opened the door a little bit, just to allow people a glimpse of what I had went through.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Um, I thought, you know, during the whole awards season of \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>, first time coming back, there were a lot of personal questions that I was being asked, but I was also very careful in answering them. I just opened the door a little bit, just to allow people a glimpse of what I had went through.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But writing a memoir is completely different. And I knew that if I were to do this, I would have to be very candid, uh, and share everything. And just the thought of that scared — scared me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But writing a memoir is completely different. And I knew that if I were to do this, I would have to be very candid, uh, and share everything. And just the thought of that scared — scared me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Um, but every time I’ve met so many fans on the streets and at different events, and they’ve always told me that my story really resonated with them and it helped them through a difficult time. And I just thought that, well, you know, if I can do this and play a small role in helping, you know, people who are struggling, if I can help them, give them strength and courage, and also help them feel a little less alone, then this entire journey will be worthwhile.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Um, but every time I’ve met so many fans on the streets and at different events, and they’ve always told me that my story really resonated with them and it helped them through a difficult time. And I just thought that, well, you know, if I can do this and play a small role in helping, you know, people who are struggling, if I can help them, give them strength and courage, and also help them feel a little less alone, then this entire journey will be worthwhile.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Why did it scare you? I mean, I know you say there were stories that you never shared with people close to you. But why did that scare you?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Why did it scare you? I mean, I know you say there were stories that you never shared with people close to you. But why did that scare you?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I think I had such huge success at a very young age. And then not long after that, I felt like a failure. And I really kept that to myself.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I think I had such huge success at a very young age. And then not long after that, I felt like a failure. And I really kept that to myself.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I felt my best years were behind me. And honestly, Mina, it’s one of the worst feelings you can have when you are 18 years old or when you’re in your early twenties, to feel like, wow, you know, your best years are behind you rather than, you know, to have something to look forward to.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I felt my best years were behind me. And honestly, Mina, it’s one of the worst feelings you can have when you are 18 years old or when you’re in your early twenties, to feel like, wow, you know, your best years are behind you rather than, you know, to have something to look forward to.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So there were a lot of those feelings that I had during the quiet years that I didn’t want people to know about. I wanted people to see, you know, the happier side of me. Those were, those were really difficult days that… that I didn’t know that I would have the strength to share.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So there were a lot of those feelings that I had during the quiet years that I didn’t want people to know about. I wanted people to see, you know, the happier side of me. Those were, those were really difficult days that… that I didn’t know that I would have the strength to share.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Listeners, what do you want to ask or tell Ke Huy Quan? What parts of Ke’s story feel similar to yours or resonate with you? Did you see his Oscar speech? Have you struggled to hold onto a dream? The email address is forum@kqed.org. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Listeners, what do you want to ask or tell Ke Huy Quan? What parts of Ke’s story feel similar to yours or resonate with you? Did you see his Oscar speech? Have you struggled to hold onto a dream? The email address is forum@kqed.org. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And Chris writes, “What was it like as one of the earliest young Asian-American actors? It must have been hard balancing our Asian-American career expectations with stardom and Hollywood in that era.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And Chris writes, “What was it like as one of the earliest young Asian-American actors? It must have been hard balancing our Asian-American career expectations with stardom and Hollywood in that era.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ke, did you also, you know, feel pressure? Like, did you feel like you had sort of career expectations from your family and so on that so many Asian-American kids say that they experience?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Ke, did you also, you know, feel pressure? Like, did you feel like you had sort of career expectations from your family and so on that so many Asian-American kids say that they experience?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Oh, yes. I mean, when you hit it big at such a young age, I mean, it’s understandable that your family and all your friends and, you know, and the public expect you to — you would go on to have this incredible career.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Oh, yes. I mean, when you hit it big at such a young age, I mean, it’s understandable that your family and all your friends and, you know, and the public expect you to — you would go on to have this incredible career.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And also, back then, I mean, there were not a lot of us working in Hollywood. So I felt really proud when people in our community would come up to me and say, “Wow, you know, I went to school, people call me Short Round, people call me Data.” That was, you know, that made me feel good.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And also, back then, I mean, there were not a lot of us working in Hollywood. So I felt really proud when people in our community would come up to me and say, “Wow, you know, I went to school, people call me Short Round, people call me Data.” That was, you know, that made me feel good.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So there’s that pressure, but also the same, I mean, I started out so young, honestly. I didn’t think much of it. It was not until years later did I really understand, one, how lucky I was, what I was going through, but also, I just really wanted to, I guess because of my background, because of where my journey started as a refugee and all of that. So to get that validation from everyone made me feel great.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So there’s that pressure, but also the same, I mean, I started out so young, honestly. I didn’t think much of it. It was not until years later did I really understand, one, how lucky I was, what I was going through, but also, I just really wanted to, I guess because of my background, because of where my journey started as a refugee and all of that. So to get that validation from everyone made me feel great.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. The after. Can you talk about that moment when you decided you couldn’t do auditions anymore? You tell the story about trying to get this part as a Viet Cong soldier, and then sort of realize how desperately you wanted a part that just had two…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. The after. Can you talk about that moment when you decided you couldn’t do auditions anymore? You tell the story about trying to get this part as a Viet Cong soldier, and then sort of realize how desperately you wanted a part that just had two…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Lines. Yeah, that decision didn’t come easily and it wasn’t, you know, spontaneous or, you know, it was just like, okay, one day I just decided that I don’t want to do this anymore. It’s over a span of many, many years of just doing nothing, waiting by the phone to ring.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Lines. Yeah, that decision didn’t come easily and it wasn’t, you know, spontaneous or, you know, it was just like, okay, one day I just decided that I don’t want to do this anymore. It’s over a span of many, many years of just doing nothing, waiting by the phone to ring.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Uh, I guess the best way I can describe it is… I felt like the world was still spinning. Everyone was moving forward at a very fast pace while I was just standing still.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Uh, I guess the best way I can describe it is… I felt like the world was still spinning. Everyone was moving forward at a very fast pace while I was just standing still.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There were so many, many sleepless nights staring up at the ceiling, wondering if my tomorrow will be better than today. And it’s really disheartening when you go to an audition after nine months, a year, and just everything rides on that one audition and hoping to land it. And when you get rejected again, and again, and again.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There were so many, many sleepless nights staring up at the ceiling, wondering if my tomorrow will be better than today. And it’s really disheartening when you go to an audition after nine months, a year, and just everything rides on that one audition and hoping to land it. And when you get rejected again, and again, and again.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then finally, I think what really broke was in 1993, when I auditioned for that, you know, that Viet Cong role. Didn’t have a character name. It had two lines. Again, there were like 50 other Asian actors fighting for this little, little tiny role. And when I didn’t even get that, then I really started to question, “Wait, do I still wanna do this? Like, how long do I wanna continue down this path when I didn’t see the light at the end of the tunnel?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then finally, I think what really broke was in 1993, when I auditioned for that, you know, that Viet Cong role. Didn’t have a character name. It had two lines. Again, there were like 50 other Asian actors fighting for this little, little tiny role. And when I didn’t even get that, then I really started to question, “Wait, do I still wanna do this? Like, how long do I wanna continue down this path when I didn’t see the light at the end of the tunnel?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it was the hardest — one of the hardest decisions I’ve ever made.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And it was the hardest — one of the hardest decisions I’ve ever made.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it definitely sounded that way. And then you, you know, tried to stay in the world, but just not in acting specifically, right? You go to USC and get a film degree. You, you know, learn about stunt roles and so on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it definitely sounded that way. And then you, you know, tried to stay in the world, but just not in acting specifically, right? You go to USC and get a film degree. You, you know, learn about stunt roles and so on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, up until that point, you know, all I knew, you know, was about the movie business is from an actor’s point of view. I didn’t know, like, what a costume designer did or cinematography or editor. I didn’t understand what it takes to put a movie together.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, up until that point, you know, all I knew, you know, was about the movie business is from an actor’s point of view. I didn’t know, like, what a costume designer did or cinematography or editor. I didn’t understand what it takes to put a movie together.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so now here I am. There are no more acting jobs. What am I going to do? I didn’t know how to do anything else. I was 25. So it’s been seven years since high school, and I felt like I don’t know a lot and I need to go back to school.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so now here I am. There are no more acting jobs. What am I going to do? I didn’t know how to do anything else. I was 25. So it’s been seven years since high school, and I felt like I don’t know a lot and I need to go back to school.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I didn’t want to leave this industry, so the only thing that made sense to me was film school. Luckily, when I applied, I got in.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I didn’t want to leave this industry, so the only thing that made sense to me was film school. Luckily, when I applied, I got in.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> He was a refugee from Vietnam who shot to stardom as Short Round in \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> when he was 12, but after quick success, his acting career ground to a halt. And he’s talking about those decades of painful self-doubt and few roles. He shares them in a new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>, and we’ll have more with him and with you, listeners, after the break. Stay with us. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> He was a refugee from Vietnam who shot to stardom as Short Round in \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> when he was 12, but after quick success, his acting career ground to a halt. And he’s talking about those decades of painful self-doubt and few roles. He shares them in a new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>, and we’ll have more with him and with you, listeners, after the break. Stay with us. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. We’re talking this hour with Academy Award-winning actor Ke Huy Quan, who won for 2022’s \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>. He has a new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em> about his years — very early of quick success as Short Round in \u003cem>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom\u003c/em> and Data in \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>. But then as he grew older, the roles dried up, but him never giving up.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. We’re talking this hour with Academy Award-winning actor Ke Huy Quan, who won for 2022’s \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>. He has a new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em> about his years — very early of quick success as Short Round in \u003cem>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom\u003c/em> and Data in \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>. But then as he grew older, the roles dried up, but him never giving up.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And listeners, what are your questions for Ke about his work, his life, his story? Did you — do you remember his Oscar speech? And does it make you think about the dreams that you have struggled to hold onto or that you’ve kept alive? 866-733-6786, the number. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, email forum@kqed.org.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And listeners, what are your questions for Ke about his work, his life, his story? Did you — do you remember his Oscar speech? And does it make you think about the dreams that you have struggled to hold onto or that you’ve kept alive? 866-733-6786, the number. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, email forum@kqed.org.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Jeremy in San Francisco writes, “Your role in \u003cem>Zootopia 2\u003c/em> really inspired me. I was shocked by how impactful that movie was. After hearing more about your story, I’m wondering if you see parallels between Gary the Snake and your life.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Jeremy in San Francisco writes, “Your role in \u003cem>Zootopia 2\u003c/em> really inspired me. I was shocked by how impactful that movie was. After hearing more about your story, I’m wondering if you see parallels between Gary the Snake and your life.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Talk about doing Gary the Snake for \u003cem>Zootopia 2\u003c/em>. Too cute. It’s actually a film that my kids absolutely loved as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Talk about doing Gary the Snake for \u003cem>Zootopia 2\u003c/em>. Too cute. It’s actually a film that my kids absolutely loved as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I love that movie. I’m so proud of it. I still remember the day I went into a Disney Animation building to meet with the creative team, and when they offered me the role, I really, you know, I was so thrilled because I was a big fan of the first one.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I love that movie. I’m so proud of it. I still remember the day I went into a Disney Animation building to meet with the creative team, and when they offered me the role, I really, you know, I was so thrilled because I was a big fan of the first one.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And in terms of do I see any parallels between myself and Gary the Snake? I mean, he’s so different in ways where he looks, you know, very intimidating because he’s a, you know, venomous pit viper. I don’t think I look intimidating at all.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And in terms of do I see any parallels between myself and Gary the Snake? I mean, he’s so different in ways where he looks, you know, very intimidating because he’s a, you know, venomous pit viper. I don’t think I look intimidating at all.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I think what we do share in common is having respect and kindness for the people around us. You know, he’s a big, goofy guy with a big heart, and that’s how I kind of like to think of myself that way.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I think what we do share in common is having respect and kindness for the people around us. You know, he’s a big, goofy guy with a big heart, and that’s how I kind of like to think of myself that way.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Also, you know, he has to deal with stigma, he has to try to reunite with his family, and tries to feel whole again. We actually have a clip from the film, you know, where he’s trying to explain that he’s trying to change the narrative about himself and reunite with his family before the character Nick Wilde, not realizing this, bops him on the head. Let’s hear it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Also, you know, he has to deal with stigma, he has to try to reunite with his family, and tries to feel whole again. We actually have a clip from the film, you know, where he’s trying to explain that he’s trying to change the narrative about himself and reunite with his family before the character Nick Wilde, not realizing this, bops him on the head. Let’s hear it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> This is our only chance to set things right. And when I do, my family will finally be able to come home.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> This is our only chance to set things right. And when I do, my family will finally be able to come home.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I am here! Cops and Wiles. Dream team. We got him. So good. I love that movie so much.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I am here! Cops and Wiles. Dream team. We got him. So good. I love that movie so much.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You know, so it was the 2018 film \u003cem>Crazy Rich Asians\u003c/em>, right, that sort of reignites your desire to act again? Because before the book, we were talking about how you made the decision just to stop doing it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You know, so it was the 2018 film \u003cem>Crazy Rich Asians\u003c/em>, right, that sort of reignites your desire to act again? Because before the book, we were talking about how you made the decision just to stop doing it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, it’s all true. I mean, also, like, a few years prior to the movie came out, I mean, I started to see the landscape in Hollywood started changing. You know, you would have a wonderful, successful show called \u003cem>Fresh Off the Boat\u003c/em> on ABC. And, you know, more and more Asian actors were playing no longer like a one-dimensional buttered-Joe kind of character, but they’re more nuanced, you know, contributing to the stories.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, it’s all true. I mean, also, like, a few years prior to the movie came out, I mean, I started to see the landscape in Hollywood started changing. You know, you would have a wonderful, successful show called \u003cem>Fresh Off the Boat\u003c/em> on ABC. And, you know, more and more Asian actors were playing no longer like a one-dimensional buttered-Joe kind of character, but they’re more nuanced, you know, contributing to the stories.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I was beginning to see a lot of that, but I didn’t think much of it. I mean, I thought I had buried my, you know, the acting bug for many years. I thought that chapter of my life was over.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I was beginning to see a lot of that, but I didn’t think much of it. I mean, I thought I had buried my, you know, the acting bug for many years. I thought that chapter of my life was over.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It was not until when I was in that movie theater on opening weekend and, you know, the room was filled with people, all kinds of people. And in the very beginning, I enjoyed it. I was watching it as if you would watch it as an audience.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It was not until when I was in that movie theater on opening weekend and, you know, the room was filled with people, all kinds of people. And in the very beginning, I enjoyed it. I was watching it as if you would watch it as an audience.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But somewhere along the line, this tiny thought started creeping into my head. And I go, “Wow, wouldn’t it be great if I was up there with them instead of here hearing the audience watching?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But somewhere along the line, this tiny thought started creeping into my head. And I go, “Wow, wouldn’t it be great if I was up there with them instead of here hearing the audience watching?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And really, that was the moment. The idea of getting back to acting started percolating. And I didn’t make the decision right away. I mean, it would be another year before I decided to finally do it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And really, that was the moment. The idea of getting back to acting started percolating. And I didn’t make the decision right away. I mean, it would be another year before I decided to finally do it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and you say that your wife didn’t know you as an actor and that, you know, you actually sort of voiced carefully, you know, that desire to act again to her.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and you say that your wife didn’t know you as an actor and that, you know, you actually sort of voiced carefully, you know, that desire to act again to her.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah. When we met, you know, she didn’t know me as an actor. She knew me as this, in fact, aspiring filmmaker. I graduated from USC. I was working for Wong Kar-wai, and I wanted to, you know, I was thinking that, oh, once when I get enough experience, I’m going to go out and direct my own film.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah. When we met, you know, she didn’t know me as an actor. She knew me as this, in fact, aspiring filmmaker. I graduated from USC. I was working for Wong Kar-wai, and I wanted to, you know, I was thinking that, oh, once when I get enough experience, I’m going to go out and direct my own film.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, and she believed that. She said, “You’re going to make a great filmmaker one day.” Uh, and she’s been so supportive, whatever I want to do. She’s always like my biggest cheering squad, you know, uh, and, and she would say, “Well, if you want to go for it.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, and she believed that. She said, “You’re going to make a great filmmaker one day.” Uh, and she’s been so supportive, whatever I want to do. She’s always like my biggest cheering squad, you know, uh, and, and she would say, “Well, if you want to go for it.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And that was how that was, how it really began. So when I sat her down and I said, “Hey, what do you think about if I would act again?” I think it really surprised her because we never, we never ever talked about that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In fact, even… you know, the year leading up to that conversation, it was all in my head. I never said it out loud. But once when she found out that I was serious, she was so supportive.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. You, um, you also say you thought about your father, who you dedicate this book to. You know, we hear you give tribute to your mother in your Oscar speech. Why did you dedicate this book to your dad?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> You know, a lot of people know my story as, you know, someone who never gives up. And, you know, it’s pretty remarkable. But when I look — when I sat down to write this book, I realized that it was actually my father who had set that example all his life.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When you think about it, I mean, it wasn’t one attempt to flee Vietnam. It was three, a total of three attempts. He faced obstacle after obstacle to get our entire family out and never gave up until he successfully did it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When you think about it, I mean, it wasn’t one attempt to flee Vietnam. It was three, a total of three attempts. He faced obstacle after obstacle to get our entire family out and never gave up until he successfully did it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And when he came here, he himself personally was faced with the most challenging thing in his life. He had a massive stroke. And even then, he did not give up.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In fact, when he took his very last breath, his brain gave out before his heart did. And that’s one of the reasons why I titled this book, \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. To me, it was a nice way to honor his legacy and also everything that he has done for me and my family. He has given us a chance at life, and I could not have been more grateful.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In fact, when he took his very last breath, his brain gave out before his heart did. And that’s one of the reasons why I titled this book, \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. To me, it was a nice way to honor his legacy and also everything that he has done for me and my family. He has given us a chance at life, and I could not have been more grateful.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And writing this book was so, you know, not only was it an emotional roller coaster, but it was also wonderful because I got to walk alongside him once again. It was as if he came alive. And to be able to memorialize him on these pages is something that I’m very proud of.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And writing this book was so, you know, not only was it an emotional roller coaster, but it was also wonderful because I got to walk alongside him once again. It was as if he came alive. And to be able to memorialize him on these pages is something that I’m very proud of.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I actually want to just play one last clip from your Oscar speech, where you give tribute to Echo and also to that persistence.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I actually want to just play one last clip from your Oscar speech, where you give tribute to Echo and also to that persistence.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I owe everything to the love of my life, my wife, Echo, who…\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Who month after month, year after year for 20 years told me that one day, one day my time will come. Dreams are something you have to believe in. I almost gave up on mine. To all of you out there, please keep your dreams alive.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Who month after month, year after year for 20 years told me that one day, one day my time will come. Dreams are something you have to believe in. I almost gave up on mine. To all of you out there, please keep your dreams alive.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Oh, it still gets me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Oh, it still gets me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It always gets me too. Your speech, really, really memorable.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It always gets me too. Your speech, really, really memorable.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bob writes, “\u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em> is one of my favorite movies ever. And the character Waymond has so much heart. Thanks so much.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bob writes, “\u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em> is one of my favorite movies ever. And the character Waymond has so much heart. Thanks so much.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Viewers who want to know more about the history of Asian Americans in film should check out the documentary \u003cem>Slaying the Dragon\u003c/em>, which my partner teaches in her Asian American culture class.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Viewers who want to know more about the history of Asian Americans in film should check out the documentary \u003cem>Slaying the Dragon\u003c/em>, which my partner teaches in her Asian American culture class.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When you got the part of Waymond, you say you felt like the part was written for you. How so, Ke?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> You know, when I first read the script, I mean, I was blown away by how good it was, but it was also something that I always wanted to read. I was so familiar with reading scripts where, if there was an Asian character, he would only appear, you know, sporadically across the pages. And more often than not, we’re asked to fit into a character rather than something that is written that feels authentic.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> You know, when I first read the script, I mean, I was blown away by how good it was, but it was also something that I always wanted to read. I was so familiar with reading scripts where, if there was an Asian character, he would only appear, you know, sporadically across the pages. And more often than not, we’re asked to fit into a character rather than something that is written that feels authentic.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But here I am reading this, it felt like it was written for me because I understood every version of this character and everything that he was saying, you know, every disappointment, every rejection has led you to this moment. Don’t let anything take you away from it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But here I am reading this, it felt like it was written for me because I understood every version of this character and everything that he was saying, you know, every disappointment, every rejection has led you to this moment. Don’t let anything take you away from it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Uh, I… I knew where those words come from, and every version of Waymond was my life. It felt like I had spent the last 30 years preparing for this role, and here it was.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Uh, I… I knew where those words come from, and every version of Waymond was my life. It felt like I had spent the last 30 years preparing for this role, and here it was.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Uh, and that’s why I — when I — put that script down, I wanted this more than anything in my entire life. I don’t think I ever wanted anything as much as I did.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Uh, and that’s why I — when I — put that script down, I wanted this more than anything in my entire life. I don’t think I ever wanted anything as much as I did.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> came along, I didn’t go searching to be an actor. I didn’t think that I would, you know, it was just… You’d never even been in a movie theater before.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> came along, I didn’t go searching to be an actor. I didn’t think that I would, you know, it was just… You’d never even been in a movie theater before.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Never been in a movie theater. The last thing on my mind was pursuing acting. And all of a sudden, I was just thrown into this incredible world of movie making.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Uh, but now, flash forward 40 years later, I just turned 50. And here was an opportunity that I thought was made for me, but yet I hadn’t done it in 25 years. So it’s very natural for me to think, yeah, you want it. So what are they going to give it to you? You know, I mean.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Uh, but now, flash forward 40 years later, I just turned 50. And here was an opportunity that I thought was made for me, but yet I hadn’t done it in 25 years. So it’s very natural for me to think, yeah, you want it. So what are they going to give it to you? You know, I mean.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Yeah, you were, you know, a lot of times, I felt like, yeah, you were really good as a kid, but that was a long, long time ago. You don’t even know if you have what it takes.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Yeah, you were, you know, a lot of times, I felt like, yeah, you were really good as a kid, but that was a long, long time ago. You don’t even know if you have what it takes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When I, when I stepped back, my goal was only to have like a small role in maybe a, you know, as a series regular, uh, that I could do week after week and have that steady paycheck. Uh, that was, that was it. Uh, and this felt so impossible.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When I, when I stepped back, my goal was only to have like a small role in maybe a, you know, as a series regular, uh, that I could do week after week and have that steady paycheck. Uh, that was, that was it. Uh, and this felt so impossible.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> But you got it, and it really is — many listeners are commenting on that film and also many listeners are also commenting on sort of just your warmth.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> But you got it, and it really is — many listeners are commenting on that film and also many listeners are also commenting on sort of just your warmth.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Okay, let me remind listeners you’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Halina in Fremont is on the line. Halina, go ahead.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Okay, let me remind listeners you’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Halina in Fremont is on the line. Halina, go ahead.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> Thank you very much. Hi, Ke. I’m so fascinated by your story. My husband and I, we are first-generation Chinese immigrants, so I understand quite of the experience you shared. Not as harsh as yours, but the main thing I want to share with you is that your story, your theory, your ethic of work not only resonated with the same age, same group, but also inspiring the new generation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> Thank you very much. Hi, Ke. I’m so fascinated by your story. My husband and I, we are first-generation Chinese immigrants, so I understand quite of the experience you shared. Not as harsh as yours, but the main thing I want to share with you is that your story, your theory, your ethic of work not only resonated with the same age, same group, but also inspiring the new generation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>My daughter was born here, grew up here. She’s a college student in journalism major. She read through all the things about you. We went to — she goes to see the movie herself as well, so she’s absolutely a lover of the movie.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>My daughter was born here, grew up here. She’s a college student in journalism major. She read through all the things about you. We went to — she goes to see the movie herself as well, so she’s absolutely a lover of the movie.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And your work ethic, the whole experience you shared with the audience, inspired her so much. Because she is also trying to get into the reporting and entertainment industry. It’s not easy for young people.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And your work ethic, the whole experience you shared with the audience, inspired her so much. Because she is also trying to get into the reporting and entertainment industry. It’s not easy for young people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But she told me that, you know what, I listened to so many of my quote-unquote heroes talking about how they struggle, how they survive, how do they make all the effort. I don’t think I have any other choice. I need to continue pushing through until one day I have a breakthrough.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But she told me that, you know what, I listened to so many of my quote-unquote heroes talking about how they struggle, how they survive, how do they make all the effort. I don’t think I have any other choice. I need to continue pushing through until one day I have a breakthrough.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I want to share with you. Continue.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I want to share with you. Continue.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> That’s so sweet. Thank you for sharing that. I think that’s what gives me the greatest joy, is I didn’t know that my story would resonate with so many people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> That’s so sweet. Thank you for sharing that. I think that’s what gives me the greatest joy, is I didn’t know that my story would resonate with so many people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And ever since the book came out, the reception has been really positive, and I’ve met and gotten, you know, many messages saying that they see themselves in my story.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And ever since the book came out, the reception has been really positive, and I’ve met and gotten, you know, many messages saying that they see themselves in my story.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Uh, and that was my — that’s what I was hoping for when I set out to write this book. So thank you for sharing that. That really means a lot.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Uh, and that was my — that’s what I was hoping for when I set out to write this book. So thank you for sharing that. That really means a lot.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The listener on Discord writes, “I think for everyone who saw it, Ke’s Oscar speech created a moment where he celebrated his perseverance while questioning your own. Yes, there are things in life I wish I’d kept at, yet others I wish had given up sooner. It was a real self-mirror moment.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The listener on Discord writes, “I think for everyone who saw it, Ke’s Oscar speech created a moment where he celebrated his perseverance while questioning your own. Yes, there are things in life I wish I’d kept at, yet others I wish had given up sooner. It was a real self-mirror moment.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Another listener in San Francisco writes, “Ke, after your success with \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>, will there continue to be more opportunities for Asian-American actors? Where does he want his career to go from here?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Another listener in San Francisco writes, “Ke, after your success with \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>, will there continue to be more opportunities for Asian-American actors? Where does he want his career to go from here?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s interesting, right? Because, so yes, what are you seeing with regard to the landscape for Asian-American actors, but also how do you think about the question now? Because there is no guarantee that work will continue for you either, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It’s interesting, right? Because, so yes, what are you seeing with regard to the landscape for Asian-American actors, but also how do you think about the question now? Because there is no guarantee that work will continue for you either, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So how do you think about that question of where you want your career to go from here, or handling an industry where there are no guarantees?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yes, that’s a big question. Here’s the difference between me now and the 30-year-old, you know, me. I’m no longer afraid of failure. It would no longer define me. I had failed before, I had gotten back up. And I’ve tried and I’ve tried and I’ve tried again. And here I am.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yes, that’s a big question. Here’s the difference between me now and the 30-year-old, you know, me. I’m no longer afraid of failure. It would no longer define me. I had failed before, I had gotten back up. And I’ve tried and I’ve tried and I’ve tried again. And here I am.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But in terms of — and you’re absolutely right, I mean, who knows what the next five, ten years entail? And the truth is, we have made a lot of progress in the last 10, 15 years. There have been a lot of wonderful movies that portrayed our community accurately and authentically and all of that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But moving forward, I’m a little wary just of how everything that has happened in the last year, year and a half. I feel like, you know, all the progress that we have made, we have taken a couple of steps back, and I’m looking — I’m curious to see where this is all going to go.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But moving forward, I’m a little wary just of how everything that has happened in the last year, year and a half. I feel like, you know, all the progress that we have made, we have taken a couple of steps back, and I’m looking — I’m curious to see where this is all going to go.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But here’s what I want to say. I wouldn’t be here if there wasn’t all these incredible — this incredible generation of young people who are really so outspoken, demand a change, they’re very vocal about what they want to see, what they wanted it to be represented up on the screen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But here’s what I want to say. I wouldn’t be here if there wasn’t all these incredible — this incredible generation of young people who are really so outspoken, demand a change, they’re very vocal about what they want to see, what they wanted it to be represented up on the screen.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think we need to continue that. But yeah, I don’t know. That’s a great question.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I’ve been wondering myself about how the landscape is still right now in Hollywood.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But in the meantime, thank you so much for putting all of this about yourself out in the world after describing sort of the struggles that you had to think about that and do that, Ke. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But in the meantime, thank you so much for putting all of this about yourself out in the world after describing sort of the struggles that you had to think about that and do that, Ke. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The book is \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>, and my guest is Ke Huy Quan. And I want to thank Jared Sport for producing this segment, and as always, to our listeners for sharing their own stories and questions and struggles and dreams.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The book is \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>, and my guest is Ke Huy Quan. And I want to thank Jared Sport for producing this segment, and as always, to our listeners for sharing their own stories and questions and struggles and dreams.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And also I want to wish our former host, longtime host Michael Krasny, a happy birthday today. You’ve been listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And also I want to wish our former host, longtime host Michael Krasny, a happy birthday today. You’ve been listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n"
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"excerpt": "In a new memoir, “Never Say Die,” Quan shares his forty-year journey of perseverance and self-discovery.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Tuesday, September 22, 2026 at 10 am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Actor Ke Huy Quan’s family fled post-war Vietnam and lived in a Hong Kong refugee camp before his unlikely turn as an iconic 1980s child star. He stumbled into a casting call for “Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom” at 12 years old, then rolled right into “The Goonies.” But as he transitioned into adulthood, roles started drying up. After decades of rejection, Quan made an Oscar-winning comeback in “Everything Everywhere All at Once.” In his new memoir, “Never Say Die,” Quan shares his forty-year journey of perseverance and self-discovery.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan,\u003c/strong> Academy Award-winning actor; author, “Never Say Die”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. When Ke Huy Quan walked on stage in 2023 to accept the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor in \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>, he did not hold back tears.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Thank you. My mom is 84 years old and she’s at home watching. Mom, I just won an Oscar.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> For Quan, his path to Hollywood’s highest honor included decades of painful self-doubt and very few roles, this after a big-screen debut in the ’80s at the age of 12 as Short Round in \u003cem>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Short Round, step on it! Okie dokie, Dr. Jones, hold onto your potato!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It’s a journey Quan chronicles in his new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. And he joins me now. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, Ke.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Mina, hey, thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Oh, it’s so wonderful to have you and to have been able to learn so much about your life, especially starting out as the kid that I, you know, maybe the first Asian kid actor I ever saw in a film, Short Round.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Ha, ha, ha! Well, I’m very proud of that. I don’t know if that’s a good thing or not. It just goes to show you how underrepresented we were back then.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you write actually in your book that it was a moment when you got that part, when your life split into a clear before and after. First, can you just talk about getting that part in 1983? Because it was basically accidental, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yes, it was. It was only a few years since we immigrated to Chinatown, Los Angeles, and I was busy acclimating into this new life, learning this new language. And we were ESL students, so we would go on every Saturday morning to get extra help with vocabulary and reading comprehension.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And normally it’s really quiet until that one Saturday while we were studying. We noticed that people kept showing up, more and more people. It was parents with their kids heading into the building, and it really piqued my little brother David’s interest. And he said, “Hey, what’s going on?” And our tutors said, “Didn’t you see the flyers everywhere? They’re looking for a Chinese kid to be in a big Hollywood movie.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that was the first time we heard it. And after the tutoring session, my brother wanted to go check out to see what’s going on and wanted to give it a try, and I tagged along. Walked into a hallway filled with Asian kids reciting lines that they were told to memorize, and that’s how it all began.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and you were feeling like, so David signs up to do this and you are feeling like he’s not really bringing it, right? What the casting directors are asking for, so you start coaching—\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> In front of the casting directors? Here’s the thing. It actually came out of my love for my brother. We would watch TV and reenact scenes together, so I know how good he can be. But being in front of the camera, I felt like he was a little nervous and he was holding back. And the casting directors weren’t seeing him the way I see him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And thinking that they don’t understand Cantonese, so I just jumped out of the chair and started screaming at him, you know, in Cantonese, kind of directing him what to do. And unbeknownst to me, their attention started to turn to me. So when my brother finished, they asked me if I would stay behind and read for them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Incredible. And then, of course, you know, they knew right then that they had their Short Round. And you also talk about auditioning in front of Steven Spielberg and Harrison Ford and George Lucas and how they really embraced you as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But this was not an experience that you had had leading up to this. Let’s talk about the before, living in post-war Vietnam and needing to flee with your family in 1977. Why did you make that decision? What was happening? Or why did your parents make that decision?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Well, you know, this is 1977, post-Vietnam War, and our lives prior to that were really good. I mean, my parents were successful middle-class business people, and they had every intention of building a life for all of us there. And when that future looked bleak, they had no choice but to make the incredibly difficult decision to get all of us out of there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, and it was, uh, it was really traumatic. I was only seven years old. I didn’t know what was going on. I wasn’t given any information. Uh, all I knew was one day I was playing with my little brother and the next, being woken up in the middle of the night, being carried over my dad’s shoulder and carried into a waiting car.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that was our very first attempt to escape. We made a total of three attempts. The first two were unsuccessful and landed me in jail. So by the time I turned eight, I had spent, you know, the first time three weeks, the second time three months in jail, and it was not until the third attempt, then as long as you can pay, you would have a spot on the ship and everything was out in the open.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and your family’s savings have been confiscated when you were arrested, and incredibly, spending that much time in jail as a little kid. But as you say, he gets the money to secure passage, basically in the cargo hold of a boat, by borrowing it. And you’re with 3,000 others packed in, experiencing bouts of seasickness and so on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But talk about when you finally make it to Hong Kong. The country won’t take you in, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah. After we spent seven treacherous days, you know, out in the South China Sea — you understand, this was winter. Almost all of us were city people, never been on a boat before, so those waves were big and the boat was rocking, like, really violently. Pretty much every single one of us were vomiting left and right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when we finally made it to Hong Kong, we thought that, wow, we had made it now. You know, everything’s gonna be all right. But once we got there, we got the terrible news that the Hong Kong government would not allow us to come on board. And we were desperate. We were hungry. The sanitation was really awful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And we ended up spending more than a month on the shore of Hong Kong, while this incredible organization called United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, UNHCR, stepped in and worked with countries all over the world to convince Hong Kong that if they were to allow us to come ashore, that they would help to get us off of their hands.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that’s what happened. And we ended up spending more than a year in a refugee camp.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to invite listeners into the conversation. Listen, we’re talking with Ke Huy Quan, Academy Award-winning actor for \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em> and now the author of a new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. Maybe you remember seeing him in \u003cem>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom\u003c/em> or as Data in \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, or are familiar with his recent voicing of Gary De’Snake in \u003cem>Zootopia 2\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Tell us what your questions are for Ke, what you want to say, what your favorite movies of his are or his work, or what parts of Ke’s story resonate with you, maybe feel similar to yours. You can email forum@kqed.org, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786. Again, that’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, one of the stories of the most painful memories of rejection in Hong Kong that really struck me was when you actually go to your aunt’s home to visit, to have a meal with her and her family. Can you talk about what happened there?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yes. My mom was born in Hong Kong, so her family lives in Hong Kong. And one day, you know, the refugee camp that we stayed in, we were allowed to go in and out. My older siblings were allowed to go work, so they were all supporting themselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And being the youngest of six with my dad, I didn’t have much to do. So one day when I found out that my aunt invited me and my sister to a home to have dinner, I was so excited. My dad bought me a brand-new outfit, and I hadn’t had a home-cooked meal in, you know, months. And here I am, you know, getting invited to my mom’s sister, older sister’s apartment. And I thought that, you know, she looked like my mom and I thought everything was going to be great.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When I sat down to have dinner, I didn’t understand what the Hong Kong culture was like. Everybody had their own customized pair of chopsticks with their name on it. But I was so excited, I was hungry. I sat and started eating and literally didn’t know that I was actually using my cousin’s pair of chopsticks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I was called out on it right away. And I witnessed my aunt took the very same pair of chopsticks that I had used into the kitchen, washed it extensively, and poured hot boiling water over it. And at that age, I didn’t understand why she did that. I thought we were family.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, of course, many years later, uh… I understand. I don’t think she was trying to hurt me in any other way, but it was just this fear that everyone had, you know, we were refugees, and there was that stigma that comes with it. And because of little information that was known about all of us, I mean, she thought that we would carry disease. And, yeah, it was — it was, you know, a moment that I never forgot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, it’s a moment you never got — you finally reunite with your mom and siblings in Los Angeles’ Chinatown in ’79. They had gone ahead and you had been separated from them. But how does that experience shape your sort of sense of self or your place in the world early on? And we’re coming up on a break. Sorry about that, Ke, but we just have about 30 seconds.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Uh, it really, you know, when I sat down and write this book, it really made me confront my own identity, uh, and as a refugee and what that label carried. And for so many years, I was really ashamed of it. Um, I didn’t know, you know, I think it really shaped who I am today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we’re talking with Ke Huy Quan. And so are you, listeners, at 866-733-6786, on our social channels at KQED Forum, and you can email Forum at kqed.org. More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Welcome back to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. We’re talking this hour with actor Ke Huy Quan, who played Waymond in 2022’s \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>, which he won the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor. He has a new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. And here’s a clip of a press interview Ke gave in 1984 about getting the part of Short Round in \u003cem>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I think I changed a lot and I was a bold people and now I get to make the movie. Do you think you’ve been very lucky? Yes, definitely. I think I’m very lucky, and I’m number seven in my family. That’s a lucky number.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What’s it like to hear that, Ke, or voice?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I’m so precocious. And I think that’s how I got the role too, I’m sure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That played a big part. Well, we’ve got a call coming in from Lubna in Palo Alto. Lubna, join us. You’re on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much. I wanted to just congratulate the guest on his success and just overcoming so much in his life and being successful. It’s wonderful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We are of South Asian descent, and my son is just embarking on his acting career after graduating from school, college. And we know that Brown people are having a moment. But we don’t know how long this moment will last. And we were just wondering, what advice do you have for someone just starting out, you know, Indian-Pakistani descent, trying to land roles and get noticed and, you know, where, of course, still the majority of roles do not go to people of minority descent?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Great question. Thanks for calling in. Yeah, I mean, you know, if I’m being honest, it is very difficult. And my advice is that you have to be prepared for a lot of rejections. And make sure that the belief you have in yourself doesn’t waver. And work really hard. Don’t give up and don’t let anybody… you know, tell you anything different.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think it’s really important. If you look at my story, you know, I wouldn’t be here talking to you if I didn’t persevere. A lot of times, you know, we don’t know what’s right around the corner. But if we stop, we’ll never see it. So we have to always keep going and work really hard and be patient because, you know, I believe that everyone — you know, everyone has their own time and that time will come one day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, talk about what happened in those years after \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> and \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, right? Another big hit and the film you reference in your title, \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. You know, after that, you wanted nothing more than to be an actor, but pretty quickly, like within a few years, the roles, the calls, they just stopped.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you know, my career went south rather quickly. I mean, you would think, you know, to start at 12 years old and having done \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> and \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, too, hugely popular movies, that I would have a very bright future. But by the time I turned 18 years old, when everybody is very optimistic on what their path would look like, mine looked very different.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, and I didn’t really know, you know, what I would do. But there was one thing I was sure of, was that I wanted to be an actor. In fact, I was only 13 when I knew I wanted to be an actor for the rest of my life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, those years were very hard. But luckily, you know, I never forgot what inspired me, because every time I got dejected… I would go to the movie theater and I would watch a great movie, a great performance by an actor. I would be totally immersed in it and I would walk out feeling so motivated and I’ll go back home, lock myself in the room and start playing out those scenes that I love, kind of reenact, kind of put myself in that character’s shoes and try to, you know, and have my own moment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think it’s the movie theater that really kept my passion alive all these years. But they were not easy years. It wasn’t a short time. It was a very long time. I call them the quiet years in my book.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and then they last about 30 years. I was struck by the story of you talking about hitting puberty and your voice changing, but not in the way that most people’s voices change.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I remember when I had to go back to public school because I wasn’t working anymore. And I would, you know, the first three days I would show up at the cafeteria and I didn’t have any friends and I felt so alone. And I felt like just because of my fame in the movies that I had done, I felt everyone was watching me. Maybe they weren’t, but it felt like that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I lasted no more than three days, and then I would get in my car and then just then every lunchtime I would go to McDonald’s. I would go to the drive-thru and order a hamburger, french fries and a Coke, and the lady that works there would always say, “Oh, thank you, ma’am. Please pull up to the first window.” It was always “ma’am.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, you know, I realized that I sound like — yeah, I sound very different than I imagined. And then I would go back the next day and I would try to speak a little bit lower voice. “Hey, yes, uh…”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> “Can I have a hamburger, french fries and a Coke, please?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it will be the same thing: “Thank you, ma’am. Please pull up to the first window.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> All right, you said your voice went higher when you were eating.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> But you know, it’s interesting because I remember there’s a story that I tell in the book. This was like after Michael Jackson had come to visit \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em> and he invited all of us to his Victory Tour. And one day, just out of the blue, I got a call from him and my brother picked it up and I was in the other room and he screamed really loud, “Ke! Some girl is looking for you!”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, and, uh, and I just realized, I guess that’s the, you know, that’s the, um, uh, little thing that Michael Jackson and I have in common, which sound a bit different.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The other thing that you did that I think also speaks to the struggle of that time is you changed your name to Jonathan. And can you also tell the story about sort of the awkwardness of seeing your former castmate from \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, Sean Astin, who asks you about changing your name?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, uh, I was 18 years old and I just got naturalized, so I was going to become an American citizen. Uh, so, you know, I’m filling out all these paperwork and it was at the same time my manager had suggested for some time that I should change to a more American-sounding name, and also it didn’t sound like a bad idea at that time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because every time I would walk into a casting room, my fame and my name would always walk in before I did. And I felt like my past was holding me back. It wasn’t helping me in any way. It was kind of hindering me from getting the opportunities that I wanted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I thought, yeah, it sounds like a great idea. So that’s what I did. I mean, honestly, at that point in my life, I would have done anything to change the status quo.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because everywhere I look, everyone was doing so well, my co-stars from \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>, Sean Astin, Corey Feldman, and all the child actors that I grew up with. They were all doing movies and TV shows, one after the other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And there was one moment when I walked on the set of \u003cem>Encino Man\u003c/em>, and Sean was the star of that movie. I had a very small role, and we met. And that was — I mean, he didn’t know that I had changed my name. So he kind of looked at me. I mean, he was still the same Sean that I remember. He was very warm, gave me a big hug. And then he asked, “Jonathan? Like, when did that happen?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I go, “Yeah, you know, I go by that now.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And he was so sweet. And he said, “You will always be Ke to me.” Uh, and I remember that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Well, the Discord user Turd writes, “Kwan is a really great person. He’s so positive and delighted despite having to deal with many challenges. He never seems bitter about his setbacks. What an inspiration.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Another listener on Discord writes, “Kwan was great in \u003cem>Loki\u003c/em>, very cool to see him pop up there.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ke, I understand when you were sort of first presented with the idea of writing a memoir, your impulse was to say no. Why?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Oh, yes. I mean, you know, I never shared my own personal struggles with anyone. In fact, there are so many stories in this book that I never shared, not even with my wife or my family until now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, it was just how I was raised. Uh, I grew up in a very traditional Chinese-value family. None of us share our feelings with each other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, I thought, you know, during the whole awards season of \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>, first time coming back, there were a lot of personal questions that I was being asked, but I was also very careful in answering them. I just opened the door a little bit, just to allow people a glimpse of what I had went through.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But writing a memoir is completely different. And I knew that if I were to do this, I would have to be very candid, uh, and share everything. And just the thought of that scared — scared me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, but every time I’ve met so many fans on the streets and at different events, and they’ve always told me that my story really resonated with them and it helped them through a difficult time. And I just thought that, well, you know, if I can do this and play a small role in helping, you know, people who are struggling, if I can help them, give them strength and courage, and also help them feel a little less alone, then this entire journey will be worthwhile.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Why did it scare you? I mean, I know you say there were stories that you never shared with people close to you. But why did that scare you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I think I had such huge success at a very young age. And then not long after that, I felt like a failure. And I really kept that to myself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I felt my best years were behind me. And honestly, Mina, it’s one of the worst feelings you can have when you are 18 years old or when you’re in your early twenties, to feel like, wow, you know, your best years are behind you rather than, you know, to have something to look forward to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So there were a lot of those feelings that I had during the quiet years that I didn’t want people to know about. I wanted people to see, you know, the happier side of me. Those were, those were really difficult days that… that I didn’t know that I would have the strength to share.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Listeners, what do you want to ask or tell Ke Huy Quan? What parts of Ke’s story feel similar to yours or resonate with you? Did you see his Oscar speech? Have you struggled to hold onto a dream? The email address is forum@kqed.org. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Chris writes, “What was it like as one of the earliest young Asian-American actors? It must have been hard balancing our Asian-American career expectations with stardom and Hollywood in that era.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ke, did you also, you know, feel pressure? Like, did you feel like you had sort of career expectations from your family and so on that so many Asian-American kids say that they experience?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Oh, yes. I mean, when you hit it big at such a young age, I mean, it’s understandable that your family and all your friends and, you know, and the public expect you to — you would go on to have this incredible career.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And also, back then, I mean, there were not a lot of us working in Hollywood. So I felt really proud when people in our community would come up to me and say, “Wow, you know, I went to school, people call me Short Round, people call me Data.” That was, you know, that made me feel good.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So there’s that pressure, but also the same, I mean, I started out so young, honestly. I didn’t think much of it. It was not until years later did I really understand, one, how lucky I was, what I was going through, but also, I just really wanted to, I guess because of my background, because of where my journey started as a refugee and all of that. So to get that validation from everyone made me feel great.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. The after. Can you talk about that moment when you decided you couldn’t do auditions anymore? You tell the story about trying to get this part as a Viet Cong soldier, and then sort of realize how desperately you wanted a part that just had two…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Lines. Yeah, that decision didn’t come easily and it wasn’t, you know, spontaneous or, you know, it was just like, okay, one day I just decided that I don’t want to do this anymore. It’s over a span of many, many years of just doing nothing, waiting by the phone to ring.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, I guess the best way I can describe it is… I felt like the world was still spinning. Everyone was moving forward at a very fast pace while I was just standing still.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There were so many, many sleepless nights staring up at the ceiling, wondering if my tomorrow will be better than today. And it’s really disheartening when you go to an audition after nine months, a year, and just everything rides on that one audition and hoping to land it. And when you get rejected again, and again, and again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then finally, I think what really broke was in 1993, when I auditioned for that, you know, that Viet Cong role. Didn’t have a character name. It had two lines. Again, there were like 50 other Asian actors fighting for this little, little tiny role. And when I didn’t even get that, then I really started to question, “Wait, do I still wanna do this? Like, how long do I wanna continue down this path when I didn’t see the light at the end of the tunnel?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it was the hardest — one of the hardest decisions I’ve ever made.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it definitely sounded that way. And then you, you know, tried to stay in the world, but just not in acting specifically, right? You go to USC and get a film degree. You, you know, learn about stunt roles and so on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, up until that point, you know, all I knew, you know, was about the movie business is from an actor’s point of view. I didn’t know, like, what a costume designer did or cinematography or editor. I didn’t understand what it takes to put a movie together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so now here I am. There are no more acting jobs. What am I going to do? I didn’t know how to do anything else. I was 25. So it’s been seven years since high school, and I felt like I don’t know a lot and I need to go back to school.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I didn’t want to leave this industry, so the only thing that made sense to me was film school. Luckily, when I applied, I got in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> He was a refugee from Vietnam who shot to stardom as Short Round in \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> when he was 12, but after quick success, his acting career ground to a halt. And he’s talking about those decades of painful self-doubt and few roles. He shares them in a new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>, and we’ll have more with him and with you, listeners, after the break. Stay with us. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. We’re talking this hour with Academy Award-winning actor Ke Huy Quan, who won for 2022’s \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>. He has a new memoir called \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em> about his years — very early of quick success as Short Round in \u003cem>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom\u003c/em> and Data in \u003cem>The Goonies\u003c/em>. But then as he grew older, the roles dried up, but him never giving up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And listeners, what are your questions for Ke about his work, his life, his story? Did you — do you remember his Oscar speech? And does it make you think about the dreams that you have struggled to hold onto or that you’ve kept alive? 866-733-6786, the number. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, email forum@kqed.org.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jeremy in San Francisco writes, “Your role in \u003cem>Zootopia 2\u003c/em> really inspired me. I was shocked by how impactful that movie was. After hearing more about your story, I’m wondering if you see parallels between Gary the Snake and your life.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Talk about doing Gary the Snake for \u003cem>Zootopia 2\u003c/em>. Too cute. It’s actually a film that my kids absolutely loved as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I love that movie. I’m so proud of it. I still remember the day I went into a Disney Animation building to meet with the creative team, and when they offered me the role, I really, you know, I was so thrilled because I was a big fan of the first one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in terms of do I see any parallels between myself and Gary the Snake? I mean, he’s so different in ways where he looks, you know, very intimidating because he’s a, you know, venomous pit viper. I don’t think I look intimidating at all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I think what we do share in common is having respect and kindness for the people around us. You know, he’s a big, goofy guy with a big heart, and that’s how I kind of like to think of myself that way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Also, you know, he has to deal with stigma, he has to try to reunite with his family, and tries to feel whole again. We actually have a clip from the film, you know, where he’s trying to explain that he’s trying to change the narrative about himself and reunite with his family before the character Nick Wilde, not realizing this, bops him on the head. Let’s hear it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> This is our only chance to set things right. And when I do, my family will finally be able to come home.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I am here! Cops and Wiles. Dream team. We got him. So good. I love that movie so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You know, so it was the 2018 film \u003cem>Crazy Rich Asians\u003c/em>, right, that sort of reignites your desire to act again? Because before the book, we were talking about how you made the decision just to stop doing it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, it’s all true. I mean, also, like, a few years prior to the movie came out, I mean, I started to see the landscape in Hollywood started changing. You know, you would have a wonderful, successful show called \u003cem>Fresh Off the Boat\u003c/em> on ABC. And, you know, more and more Asian actors were playing no longer like a one-dimensional buttered-Joe kind of character, but they’re more nuanced, you know, contributing to the stories.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I was beginning to see a lot of that, but I didn’t think much of it. I mean, I thought I had buried my, you know, the acting bug for many years. I thought that chapter of my life was over.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It was not until when I was in that movie theater on opening weekend and, you know, the room was filled with people, all kinds of people. And in the very beginning, I enjoyed it. I was watching it as if you would watch it as an audience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But somewhere along the line, this tiny thought started creeping into my head. And I go, “Wow, wouldn’t it be great if I was up there with them instead of here hearing the audience watching?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And really, that was the moment. The idea of getting back to acting started percolating. And I didn’t make the decision right away. I mean, it would be another year before I decided to finally do it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and you say that your wife didn’t know you as an actor and that, you know, you actually sort of voiced carefully, you know, that desire to act again to her.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yeah. When we met, you know, she didn’t know me as an actor. She knew me as this, in fact, aspiring filmmaker. I graduated from USC. I was working for Wong Kar-wai, and I wanted to, you know, I was thinking that, oh, once when I get enough experience, I’m going to go out and direct my own film.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, and she believed that. She said, “You’re going to make a great filmmaker one day.” Uh, and she’s been so supportive, whatever I want to do. She’s always like my biggest cheering squad, you know, uh, and, and she would say, “Well, if you want to go for it.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that was how that was, how it really began. So when I sat her down and I said, “Hey, what do you think about if I would act again?” I think it really surprised her because we never, we never ever talked about that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In fact, even… you know, the year leading up to that conversation, it was all in my head. I never said it out loud. But once when she found out that I was serious, she was so supportive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. You, um, you also say you thought about your father, who you dedicate this book to. You know, we hear you give tribute to your mother in your Oscar speech. Why did you dedicate this book to your dad?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> You know, a lot of people know my story as, you know, someone who never gives up. And, you know, it’s pretty remarkable. But when I look — when I sat down to write this book, I realized that it was actually my father who had set that example all his life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When you think about it, I mean, it wasn’t one attempt to flee Vietnam. It was three, a total of three attempts. He faced obstacle after obstacle to get our entire family out and never gave up until he successfully did it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when he came here, he himself personally was faced with the most challenging thing in his life. He had a massive stroke. And even then, he did not give up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In fact, when he took his very last breath, his brain gave out before his heart did. And that’s one of the reasons why I titled this book, \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>. To me, it was a nice way to honor his legacy and also everything that he has done for me and my family. He has given us a chance at life, and I could not have been more grateful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And writing this book was so, you know, not only was it an emotional roller coaster, but it was also wonderful because I got to walk alongside him once again. It was as if he came alive. And to be able to memorialize him on these pages is something that I’m very proud of.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I actually want to just play one last clip from your Oscar speech, where you give tribute to Echo and also to that persistence.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> I owe everything to the love of my life, my wife, Echo, who…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Who month after month, year after year for 20 years told me that one day, one day my time will come. Dreams are something you have to believe in. I almost gave up on mine. To all of you out there, please keep your dreams alive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Oh, it still gets me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It always gets me too. Your speech, really, really memorable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bob writes, “\u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em> is one of my favorite movies ever. And the character Waymond has so much heart. Thanks so much.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Viewers who want to know more about the history of Asian Americans in film should check out the documentary \u003cem>Slaying the Dragon\u003c/em>, which my partner teaches in her Asian American culture class.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When you got the part of Waymond, you say you felt like the part was written for you. How so, Ke?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> You know, when I first read the script, I mean, I was blown away by how good it was, but it was also something that I always wanted to read. I was so familiar with reading scripts where, if there was an Asian character, he would only appear, you know, sporadically across the pages. And more often than not, we’re asked to fit into a character rather than something that is written that feels authentic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But here I am reading this, it felt like it was written for me because I understood every version of this character and everything that he was saying, you know, every disappointment, every rejection has led you to this moment. Don’t let anything take you away from it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, I… I knew where those words come from, and every version of Waymond was my life. It felt like I had spent the last 30 years preparing for this role, and here it was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, and that’s why I — when I — put that script down, I wanted this more than anything in my entire life. I don’t think I ever wanted anything as much as I did.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When \u003cem>Indiana Jones\u003c/em> came along, I didn’t go searching to be an actor. I didn’t think that I would, you know, it was just… You’d never even been in a movie theater before.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Never been in a movie theater. The last thing on my mind was pursuing acting. And all of a sudden, I was just thrown into this incredible world of movie making.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, but now, flash forward 40 years later, I just turned 50. And here was an opportunity that I thought was made for me, but yet I hadn’t done it in 25 years. So it’s very natural for me to think, yeah, you want it. So what are they going to give it to you? You know, I mean.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Yeah, you were, you know, a lot of times, I felt like, yeah, you were really good as a kid, but that was a long, long time ago. You don’t even know if you have what it takes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When I, when I stepped back, my goal was only to have like a small role in maybe a, you know, as a series regular, uh, that I could do week after week and have that steady paycheck. Uh, that was, that was it. Uh, and this felt so impossible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> But you got it, and it really is — many listeners are commenting on that film and also many listeners are also commenting on sort of just your warmth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Okay, let me remind listeners you’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Halina in Fremont is on the line. Halina, go ahead.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Caller:\u003c/strong> Thank you very much. Hi, Ke. I’m so fascinated by your story. My husband and I, we are first-generation Chinese immigrants, so I understand quite of the experience you shared. Not as harsh as yours, but the main thing I want to share with you is that your story, your theory, your ethic of work not only resonated with the same age, same group, but also inspiring the new generation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>My daughter was born here, grew up here. She’s a college student in journalism major. She read through all the things about you. We went to — she goes to see the movie herself as well, so she’s absolutely a lover of the movie.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And your work ethic, the whole experience you shared with the audience, inspired her so much. Because she is also trying to get into the reporting and entertainment industry. It’s not easy for young people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But she told me that, you know what, I listened to so many of my quote-unquote heroes talking about how they struggle, how they survive, how do they make all the effort. I don’t think I have any other choice. I need to continue pushing through until one day I have a breakthrough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I want to share with you. Continue.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> That’s so sweet. Thank you for sharing that. I think that’s what gives me the greatest joy, is I didn’t know that my story would resonate with so many people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And ever since the book came out, the reception has been really positive, and I’ve met and gotten, you know, many messages saying that they see themselves in my story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, and that was my — that’s what I was hoping for when I set out to write this book. So thank you for sharing that. That really means a lot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The listener on Discord writes, “I think for everyone who saw it, Ke’s Oscar speech created a moment where he celebrated his perseverance while questioning your own. Yes, there are things in life I wish I’d kept at, yet others I wish had given up sooner. It was a real self-mirror moment.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Another listener in San Francisco writes, “Ke, after your success with \u003cem>Everything Everywhere All at Once\u003c/em>, will there continue to be more opportunities for Asian-American actors? Where does he want his career to go from here?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s interesting, right? Because, so yes, what are you seeing with regard to the landscape for Asian-American actors, but also how do you think about the question now? Because there is no guarantee that work will continue for you either, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So how do you think about that question of where you want your career to go from here, or handling an industry where there are no guarantees?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ke Huy Quan:\u003c/strong> Yes, that’s a big question. Here’s the difference between me now and the 30-year-old, you know, me. I’m no longer afraid of failure. It would no longer define me. I had failed before, I had gotten back up. And I’ve tried and I’ve tried and I’ve tried again. And here I am.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But in terms of — and you’re absolutely right, I mean, who knows what the next five, ten years entail? And the truth is, we have made a lot of progress in the last 10, 15 years. There have been a lot of wonderful movies that portrayed our community accurately and authentically and all of that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But moving forward, I’m a little wary just of how everything that has happened in the last year, year and a half. I feel like, you know, all the progress that we have made, we have taken a couple of steps back, and I’m looking — I’m curious to see where this is all going to go.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But here’s what I want to say. I wouldn’t be here if there wasn’t all these incredible — this incredible generation of young people who are really so outspoken, demand a change, they’re very vocal about what they want to see, what they wanted it to be represented up on the screen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think we need to continue that. But yeah, I don’t know. That’s a great question.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I’ve been wondering myself about how the landscape is still right now in Hollywood.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But in the meantime, thank you so much for putting all of this about yourself out in the world after describing sort of the struggles that you had to think about that and do that, Ke. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The book is \u003cem>Never Say Die\u003c/em>, and my guest is Ke Huy Quan. And I want to thank Jared Sport for producing this segment, and as always, to our listeners for sharing their own stories and questions and struggles and dreams.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And also I want to wish our former host, longtime host Michael Krasny, a happy birthday today. You’ve been listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Announcer:\u003c/strong> Funds for the production of \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> are provided by the Jenerosity Family Fund and the members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Monday, September 21, 2026 at 10 am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When animal advocates in Humboldt County unearthed dog carcasses on the property of Miranda’s Rescue, they exposed an alleged cruelty and fraud operation that has shocked animal welfare groups across the state. A sprawling multi-agency investigation has since revealed mass graves, dozens of canine skulls and records for hundreds of unaccounted-for dogs transferred from municipal shelters to a sanctuary that marketed itself as a “no-kill” refuge. We’ll look at the latest findings in the investigation, explore why prior warnings were overlooked and discuss what it will take to reform California’s strained animal rescue system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis,\u003c/strong> criminal justice reporter, KQED; host and reporter; “On Our Watch”; co-founder, the California Reporting Project\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond, \u003c/strong>founder of Humboldt Spay/Neuter Clinic; founder of Humboldt Critters without Litters\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore,\u003c/strong> animal advocate; whistleblower who kicked off the Miranda’s Rescue investigation\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Shannon Miranda,\u003c/strong> owner, Miranda’s Rescue\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. A no-kill shelter in Fortuna called Miranda’s Rescue describes itself as a safe haven for animals, a place to heal and educate. And for years, shelters from across California have sent animals there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, Miranda’s Rescue is under investigation by the Humboldt County Sheriff’s Office, the FBI and other law enforcement agencies, after two county residents, Jennifer Raymond and Jenna Moore, found eight dogs buried in a grave on the property and alerted authorities. To date, no formal charges have been filed against the rescue’s owner.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And this hour, we get the latest on the investigation with KQED criminal justice reporter Sukey Lewis, who joins us now. Hi, Sukey.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> Hi. Good morning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also with us, the two animal advocates who found the dogs and triggered the investigation. Jennifer Raymond is in studio with me, co-founder of Humboldt’s Spay Neuter Clinic. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, Jennifer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> Thank you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also, Jenna Moore joins us from KRED, a radio station in Eureka. Jenna, glad to have you with us too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> Yes, thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Jennifer, I want to start with you. Tell me about that night you found those eight dogs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> Well, we knew that he must be killing dogs, and there was a large pile of dirt and a big hole on the property. We had put up trail cams to watch, and on a Sunday afternoon, a bright and sunny afternoon, we saw him come out on his tractor with the bucket with straw in it, meaning the owner of the rescue, Shannon Miranda. And he turned straight toward the camera and began dumping. And at that point, you could see that there were bodies under the straw. And at that point, Jen and I knew that we had to go out there, and we had to get those bodies as evidence that dogs were being killed at this rescue in return for large sums of money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Jenna, what made you and Jennifer decide to risk the consequences of, you know, essentially breaking trespassing and property damage laws to get these dog carcasses?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> We actually didn’t have a conversation about any of the legalities prior. And we didn’t have any intentions of actually bringing the bodies back. We just thought, okay, if they need more evidence, we’ll go in, this is our time, and we’ll microchip scan them, take photos and videos, and then that’ll be enough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But once we actually got down in there and the bodies were still warm, and it just got pretty emotional, we kind of looked at each other and I just said, “We’re not leaving these guys here. I’m taking them home.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, yeah, we got back, and that’s when we had that discussion. And we just said, well, you know what, we’ll take it. If we’re going to have trespassing and stolen property thrown at us, then, you know, it was worth it. So.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Jennifer, Jenna says they need more evidence. Who’s “they”? What were you trying to do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> We were trying to get enough evidence to get the sheriff to go in and get a search warrant and investigate what was going on here. I had been trying to bring down this rescue for years. I filed my first complaint against it in 2006, 20 years before, and we could never get the sheriff to do anything. And so we felt that whatever it took, we needed to get them to go in and take action to stop what was happening, which was the killing of animals.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Physical evidence. Well, Sukey, it sounds like it worked, right? The investigation got launched, and in fact the area was excavated. Tell me what investigators have found.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> So there were two search warrants so far that have been served on the property. One that was shortly after Jenna and Jennifer brought the evidence of these animals to the sheriff. And I want to say one of the really key things about what they uncovered was that the dogs were microchipped, and so they could trace them back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And one of these dogs in particular, named Zora, was traced back to Oakland Animal Services. And their owner of the shelter had said that Shannon Miranda had told him that this dog had been adopted. And so that kind of laid the groundwork for a potential fraud investigation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And also the bullet wounds. I’m sorry, for people who, this is difficult to hear.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It is difficult. In this show, we’ll leave it at that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> But they found that in the animals that they recovered, there were bullet wounds, evidence of the dogs being shot. And so the sheriff began investigating these allegations of potential fraud and also potential animal cruelty.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the first search warrant they did really focused on looking at paperwork and stuff like that. The second search warrant, which was served in late June, was a much bigger operation. And this involved the FBI, the USDA, you know, archaeologists, because they went in and basically began to unearth these mass graves that were at the back of Shannon Miranda’s property, at the back of the rescue, and ultimately pulled, you know, 117 dog remains, carcasses that were intact, a number of microchips, skulls, and began the process of trying to identify where they came from.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s also a financial aspect to this because this is supposed to be a charity, a nonprofit. And so I think they’re investigating, you know, was the money that they were taking in under these auspices as a no-kill shelter appropriately used? And was all the correct reporting going to the IRS and also, you know, the organizations that monitor charities?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> How many dogs have gone through this shelter, generally, in the time frame that it sounds like the authorities are investigating?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> It has grown over time, but in the latest numbers from the sheriff, he said they have reports of about a thousand dogs. Some of those did predate the 2025 time period, predate January 2025. Mostly between January 2025 and spring of 2026, 900 dogs were found to have been transferred there, and they found adoption paperwork for about a hundred of them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There were also a number of dogs that were still alive on the property. And so the sheriff says there’s about 750 dogs that they just do not know what happened to. And so the investigation is trying to pin down where those animals went. Were they adopted? You know, Shannon Miranda, I want to say, has said, like, he is just really bad at paperwork and that many of these dogs were adopted, not killed. But that’s kind of where the numbers stand at this point.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And from where have these animals come from? I understand it’s a very wide range geographically across the state.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> From all over the state. I mean, for Bay Area listeners, Oakland Animal Services sent hundreds of dogs there. One dog, we understand from the sheriff, came all the way from Hawaii. And there have been dogs from Kern County, from Southern California, from, you know, the local — he also had contracts with some of the local towns. So it’s really a range of kind of local dogs and then dogs from all over the state.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And it’s been operating for some 28, 30 years or so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> Yeah, 31 years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. You know, Jenna, this is a story that has gotten national attention. Why do you think that is? Or Jennifer. Let’s see if we can reconnect with Jenna. Jennifer? Sorry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> This is Jenna.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Oh, hi, Jenna.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think that, you know, we have a lot of animal advocates and people who just love animals, and you just never hear of things like this. So I think this is kind of a whole different caliber of what we’re normally used to seeing, and I think it’s just gotten the attention of so many.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, we use dogs for cadavers, our police officers use them, they’re used in many ways that, you know, they’re a part of our lives in some way, shape or form, and I think that this has just touched so many people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> Well, I think it really shatters the mythology of no-kill and save them all. Everybody wants to believe that there is some place where all the excess dogs can go that end up in animal shelters. We don’t want them killed in shelters. And people are horrified to learn that animals were pulled out of shelters at great expense and transported to a place where they ended up being brutally killed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Sukey, to date, though, I understand that no charges have been filed against Miranda’s Rescue or the rescue’s owner, and that he’s denied any wrongdoing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> Yes. No charges have been filed. The Humboldt County Sheriff recently sent a statement in which he said the investigation is very complex, you know, tracing all these animals back, and that they’re not going to be rushed. He has repeatedly kind of urged patience on the part of the public, who have kind of been outraged.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I think it’s important to note, it appears that, you know, in a recent statement, my colleague Zoe Farigno, who has been reporting on this story, she spoke to Shannon Miranda a little over a week ago, and he said there’s still animals coming in for adoption, despite his conditional use permit being suspended. So there are still animals there for adoption, and he’s still at this point operating.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What did sheriff’s officials say? Did you tell them that when you followed up with that information?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> They know.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the sheriff has maintained that he is free to continue operating the rescue.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> No charges have been filed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, we also reached out to Sheriff William Hansel, and he sent a statement to us as well. And he said that Mr. Miranda and his media representatives are free to make whatever public statements they choose and present their version of events as they see fit. And we will be joined later by Shannon Miranda.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And as you say, Sukey, he says that the investigation into Miranda’s Rescue remains very active and continues to be handled with the seriousness it deserves. He writes, “The Humboldt County Sheriff’s Office, however, has remained committed to releasing only factual information that is appropriate to disclose during an active criminal investigation.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Listeners, we’re talking about the ongoing investigation into Miranda’s Rescue in Humboldt County. A sprawling, multi-agency investigation there has revealed mass graves, canine skulls, records for hundreds of dogs that are unaccounted for but were transferred there from municipal shelters and other places.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re talking about it with Sukey Lewis, criminal justice reporter for KQED and host of the \u003cem>On Our Watch\u003c/em> podcast you might be familiar with. Jennifer Raymond is with us, an animal advocate and whistleblower who kicked off the Miranda’s Rescue investigation, along with Jenna Moore, also an animal advocate. And Jennifer is also founder of Humboldt’s Spay Neuter Clinic and Humboldt’s Critters Without Litters.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Listeners, what questions do you have about the investigation? Are you a shelter owner or work at a shelter or a private animal owner? Have you ever interacted with Miranda’s Rescue? What questions do you have about how California regulates and oversees animal shelters and transfers?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can tell us by emailing forum@kqed.org, finding us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, and by calling 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Stay with us. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. A no-kill shelter in Fortuna called Miranda’s Rescue describes itself as a safe haven for animals, a place to heal and educate. And for years, shelters from across California have sent animals there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. A no-kill shelter in Fortuna called Miranda’s Rescue describes itself as a safe haven for animals, a place to heal and educate. And for years, shelters from across California have sent animals there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, Miranda’s Rescue is under investigation by the Humboldt County Sheriff’s Office, the FBI and other law enforcement agencies, after two county residents, Jennifer Raymond and Jenna Moore, found eight dogs buried in a grave on the property and alerted authorities. To date, no formal charges have been filed against the rescue’s owner.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now, Miranda’s Rescue is under investigation by the Humboldt County Sheriff’s Office, the FBI and other law enforcement agencies, after two county residents, Jennifer Raymond and Jenna Moore, found eight dogs buried in a grave on the property and alerted authorities. To date, no formal charges have been filed against the rescue’s owner.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And this hour, we get the latest on the investigation with KQED criminal justice reporter Sukey Lewis, who joins us now. Hi, Sukey.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And this hour, we get the latest on the investigation with KQED criminal justice reporter Sukey Lewis, who joins us now. Hi, Sukey.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> Hi. Good morning.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> Hi. Good morning.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also with us, the two animal advocates who found the dogs and triggered the investigation. Jennifer Raymond is in studio with me, co-founder of Humboldt’s Spay Neuter Clinic. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, Jennifer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also with us, the two animal advocates who found the dogs and triggered the investigation. Jennifer Raymond is in studio with me, co-founder of Humboldt’s Spay Neuter Clinic. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, Jennifer.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> Thank you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> Thank you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also, Jenna Moore joins us from KRED, a radio station in Eureka. Jenna, glad to have you with us too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also, Jenna Moore joins us from KRED, a radio station in Eureka. Jenna, glad to have you with us too.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> Yes, thank you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> Yes, thank you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Jennifer, I want to start with you. Tell me about that night you found those eight dogs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Jennifer, I want to start with you. Tell me about that night you found those eight dogs.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> Well, we knew that he must be killing dogs, and there was a large pile of dirt and a big hole on the property. We had put up trail cams to watch, and on a Sunday afternoon, a bright and sunny afternoon, we saw him come out on his tractor with the bucket with straw in it, meaning the owner of the rescue, Shannon Miranda. And he turned straight toward the camera and began dumping. And at that point, you could see that there were bodies under the straw. And at that point, Jen and I knew that we had to go out there, and we had to get those bodies as evidence that dogs were being killed at this rescue in return for large sums of money.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> Well, we knew that he must be killing dogs, and there was a large pile of dirt and a big hole on the property. We had put up trail cams to watch, and on a Sunday afternoon, a bright and sunny afternoon, we saw him come out on his tractor with the bucket with straw in it, meaning the owner of the rescue, Shannon Miranda. And he turned straight toward the camera and began dumping. And at that point, you could see that there were bodies under the straw. And at that point, Jen and I knew that we had to go out there, and we had to get those bodies as evidence that dogs were being killed at this rescue in return for large sums of money.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Jenna, what made you and Jennifer decide to risk the consequences of, you know, essentially breaking trespassing and property damage laws to get these dog carcasses?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Jenna, what made you and Jennifer decide to risk the consequences of, you know, essentially breaking trespassing and property damage laws to get these dog carcasses?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> We actually didn’t have a conversation about any of the legalities prior. And we didn’t have any intentions of actually bringing the bodies back. We just thought, okay, if they need more evidence, we’ll go in, this is our time, and we’ll microchip scan them, take photos and videos, and then that’ll be enough.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> We actually didn’t have a conversation about any of the legalities prior. And we didn’t have any intentions of actually bringing the bodies back. We just thought, okay, if they need more evidence, we’ll go in, this is our time, and we’ll microchip scan them, take photos and videos, and then that’ll be enough.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But once we actually got down in there and the bodies were still warm, and it just got pretty emotional, we kind of looked at each other and I just said, “We’re not leaving these guys here. I’m taking them home.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But once we actually got down in there and the bodies were still warm, and it just got pretty emotional, we kind of looked at each other and I just said, “We’re not leaving these guys here. I’m taking them home.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so, yeah, we got back, and that’s when we had that discussion. And we just said, well, you know what, we’ll take it. If we’re going to have trespassing and stolen property thrown at us, then, you know, it was worth it. So.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so, yeah, we got back, and that’s when we had that discussion. And we just said, well, you know what, we’ll take it. If we’re going to have trespassing and stolen property thrown at us, then, you know, it was worth it. So.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Jennifer, Jenna says they need more evidence. Who’s “they”? What were you trying to do?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> We were trying to get enough evidence to get the sheriff to go in and get a search warrant and investigate what was going on here. I had been trying to bring down this rescue for years. I filed my first complaint against it in 2006, 20 years before, and we could never get the sheriff to do anything. And so we felt that whatever it took, we needed to get them to go in and take action to stop what was happening, which was the killing of animals.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> We were trying to get enough evidence to get the sheriff to go in and get a search warrant and investigate what was going on here. I had been trying to bring down this rescue for years. I filed my first complaint against it in 2006, 20 years before, and we could never get the sheriff to do anything. And so we felt that whatever it took, we needed to get them to go in and take action to stop what was happening, which was the killing of animals.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Physical evidence. Well, Sukey, it sounds like it worked, right? The investigation got launched, and in fact the area was excavated. Tell me what investigators have found.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Physical evidence. Well, Sukey, it sounds like it worked, right? The investigation got launched, and in fact the area was excavated. Tell me what investigators have found.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> So there were two search warrants so far that have been served on the property. One that was shortly after Jenna and Jennifer brought the evidence of these animals to the sheriff. And I want to say one of the really key things about what they uncovered was that the dogs were microchipped, and so they could trace them back.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> So there were two search warrants so far that have been served on the property. One that was shortly after Jenna and Jennifer brought the evidence of these animals to the sheriff. And I want to say one of the really key things about what they uncovered was that the dogs were microchipped, and so they could trace them back.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And one of these dogs in particular, named Zora, was traced back to Oakland Animal Services. And their owner of the shelter had said that Shannon Miranda had told him that this dog had been adopted. And so that kind of laid the groundwork for a potential fraud investigation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And one of these dogs in particular, named Zora, was traced back to Oakland Animal Services. And their owner of the shelter had said that Shannon Miranda had told him that this dog had been adopted. And so that kind of laid the groundwork for a potential fraud investigation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And also the bullet wounds. I’m sorry, for people who, this is difficult to hear.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And also the bullet wounds. I’m sorry, for people who, this is difficult to hear.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It is difficult. In this show, we’ll leave it at that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It is difficult. In this show, we’ll leave it at that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> But they found that in the animals that they recovered, there were bullet wounds, evidence of the dogs being shot. And so the sheriff began investigating these allegations of potential fraud and also potential animal cruelty.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> But they found that in the animals that they recovered, there were bullet wounds, evidence of the dogs being shot. And so the sheriff began investigating these allegations of potential fraud and also potential animal cruelty.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the first search warrant they did really focused on looking at paperwork and stuff like that. The second search warrant, which was served in late June, was a much bigger operation. And this involved the FBI, the USDA, you know, archaeologists, because they went in and basically began to unearth these mass graves that were at the back of Shannon Miranda’s property, at the back of the rescue, and ultimately pulled, you know, 117 dog remains, carcasses that were intact, a number of microchips, skulls, and began the process of trying to identify where they came from.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the first search warrant they did really focused on looking at paperwork and stuff like that. The second search warrant, which was served in late June, was a much bigger operation. And this involved the FBI, the USDA, you know, archaeologists, because they went in and basically began to unearth these mass graves that were at the back of Shannon Miranda’s property, at the back of the rescue, and ultimately pulled, you know, 117 dog remains, carcasses that were intact, a number of microchips, skulls, and began the process of trying to identify where they came from.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There’s also a financial aspect to this because this is supposed to be a charity, a nonprofit. And so I think they’re investigating, you know, was the money that they were taking in under these auspices as a no-kill shelter appropriately used? And was all the correct reporting going to the IRS and also, you know, the organizations that monitor charities?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There’s also a financial aspect to this because this is supposed to be a charity, a nonprofit. And so I think they’re investigating, you know, was the money that they were taking in under these auspices as a no-kill shelter appropriately used? And was all the correct reporting going to the IRS and also, you know, the organizations that monitor charities?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> How many dogs have gone through this shelter, generally, in the time frame that it sounds like the authorities are investigating?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> How many dogs have gone through this shelter, generally, in the time frame that it sounds like the authorities are investigating?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> It has grown over time, but in the latest numbers from the sheriff, he said they have reports of about a thousand dogs. Some of those did predate the 2025 time period, predate January 2025. Mostly between January 2025 and spring of 2026, 900 dogs were found to have been transferred there, and they found adoption paperwork for about a hundred of them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> It has grown over time, but in the latest numbers from the sheriff, he said they have reports of about a thousand dogs. Some of those did predate the 2025 time period, predate January 2025. Mostly between January 2025 and spring of 2026, 900 dogs were found to have been transferred there, and they found adoption paperwork for about a hundred of them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There were also a number of dogs that were still alive on the property. And so the sheriff says there’s about 750 dogs that they just do not know what happened to. And so the investigation is trying to pin down where those animals went. Were they adopted? You know, Shannon Miranda, I want to say, has said, like, he is just really bad at paperwork and that many of these dogs were adopted, not killed. But that’s kind of where the numbers stand at this point.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There were also a number of dogs that were still alive on the property. And so the sheriff says there’s about 750 dogs that they just do not know what happened to. And so the investigation is trying to pin down where those animals went. Were they adopted? You know, Shannon Miranda, I want to say, has said, like, he is just really bad at paperwork and that many of these dogs were adopted, not killed. But that’s kind of where the numbers stand at this point.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And from where have these animals come from? I understand it’s a very wide range geographically across the state.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And from where have these animals come from? I understand it’s a very wide range geographically across the state.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> From all over the state. I mean, for Bay Area listeners, Oakland Animal Services sent hundreds of dogs there. One dog, we understand from the sheriff, came all the way from Hawaii. And there have been dogs from Kern County, from Southern California, from, you know, the local — he also had contracts with some of the local towns. So it’s really a range of kind of local dogs and then dogs from all over the state.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> From all over the state. I mean, for Bay Area listeners, Oakland Animal Services sent hundreds of dogs there. One dog, we understand from the sheriff, came all the way from Hawaii. And there have been dogs from Kern County, from Southern California, from, you know, the local — he also had contracts with some of the local towns. So it’s really a range of kind of local dogs and then dogs from all over the state.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And it’s been operating for some 28, 30 years or so.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And it’s been operating for some 28, 30 years or so.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> Yeah, 31 years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> Yeah, 31 years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. You know, Jenna, this is a story that has gotten national attention. Why do you think that is? Or Jennifer. Let’s see if we can reconnect with Jenna. Jennifer? Sorry.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. You know, Jenna, this is a story that has gotten national attention. Why do you think that is? Or Jennifer. Let’s see if we can reconnect with Jenna. Jennifer? Sorry.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> This is Jenna.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> This is Jenna.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Oh, hi, Jenna.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Oh, hi, Jenna.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think that, you know, we have a lot of animal advocates and people who just love animals, and you just never hear of things like this. So I think this is kind of a whole different caliber of what we’re normally used to seeing, and I think it’s just gotten the attention of so many.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think that, you know, we have a lot of animal advocates and people who just love animals, and you just never hear of things like this. So I think this is kind of a whole different caliber of what we’re normally used to seeing, and I think it’s just gotten the attention of so many.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, we use dogs for cadavers, our police officers use them, they’re used in many ways that, you know, they’re a part of our lives in some way, shape or form, and I think that this has just touched so many people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, we use dogs for cadavers, our police officers use them, they’re used in many ways that, you know, they’re a part of our lives in some way, shape or form, and I think that this has just touched so many people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> Well, I think it really shatters the mythology of no-kill and save them all. Everybody wants to believe that there is some place where all the excess dogs can go that end up in animal shelters. We don’t want them killed in shelters. And people are horrified to learn that animals were pulled out of shelters at great expense and transported to a place where they ended up being brutally killed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> Well, I think it really shatters the mythology of no-kill and save them all. Everybody wants to believe that there is some place where all the excess dogs can go that end up in animal shelters. We don’t want them killed in shelters. And people are horrified to learn that animals were pulled out of shelters at great expense and transported to a place where they ended up being brutally killed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Sukey, to date, though, I understand that no charges have been filed against Miranda’s Rescue or the rescue’s owner, and that he’s denied any wrongdoing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Sukey, to date, though, I understand that no charges have been filed against Miranda’s Rescue or the rescue’s owner, and that he’s denied any wrongdoing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> Yes. No charges have been filed. The Humboldt County Sheriff recently sent a statement in which he said the investigation is very complex, you know, tracing all these animals back, and that they’re not going to be rushed. He has repeatedly kind of urged patience on the part of the public, who have kind of been outraged.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> Yes. No charges have been filed. The Humboldt County Sheriff recently sent a statement in which he said the investigation is very complex, you know, tracing all these animals back, and that they’re not going to be rushed. He has repeatedly kind of urged patience on the part of the public, who have kind of been outraged.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I think it’s important to note, it appears that, you know, in a recent statement, my colleague Zoe Farigno, who has been reporting on this story, she spoke to Shannon Miranda a little over a week ago, and he said there’s still animals coming in for adoption, despite his conditional use permit being suspended. So there are still animals there for adoption, and he’s still at this point operating.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I think it’s important to note, it appears that, you know, in a recent statement, my colleague Zoe Farigno, who has been reporting on this story, she spoke to Shannon Miranda a little over a week ago, and he said there’s still animals coming in for adoption, despite his conditional use permit being suspended. So there are still animals there for adoption, and he’s still at this point operating.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What did sheriff’s officials say? Did you tell them that when you followed up with that information?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> They know.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the sheriff has maintained that he is free to continue operating the rescue.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the sheriff has maintained that he is free to continue operating the rescue.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> No charges have been filed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, we also reached out to Sheriff William Hansel, and he sent a statement to us as well. And he said that Mr. Miranda and his media representatives are free to make whatever public statements they choose and present their version of events as they see fit. And we will be joined later by Shannon Miranda.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, we also reached out to Sheriff William Hansel, and he sent a statement to us as well. And he said that Mr. Miranda and his media representatives are free to make whatever public statements they choose and present their version of events as they see fit. And we will be joined later by Shannon Miranda.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And as you say, Sukey, he says that the investigation into Miranda’s Rescue remains very active and continues to be handled with the seriousness it deserves. He writes, “The Humboldt County Sheriff’s Office, however, has remained committed to releasing only factual information that is appropriate to disclose during an active criminal investigation.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And as you say, Sukey, he says that the investigation into Miranda’s Rescue remains very active and continues to be handled with the seriousness it deserves. He writes, “The Humboldt County Sheriff’s Office, however, has remained committed to releasing only factual information that is appropriate to disclose during an active criminal investigation.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Listeners, we’re talking about the ongoing investigation into Miranda’s Rescue in Humboldt County. A sprawling, multi-agency investigation there has revealed mass graves, canine skulls, records for hundreds of dogs that are unaccounted for but were transferred there from municipal shelters and other places.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Listeners, we’re talking about the ongoing investigation into Miranda’s Rescue in Humboldt County. A sprawling, multi-agency investigation there has revealed mass graves, canine skulls, records for hundreds of dogs that are unaccounted for but were transferred there from municipal shelters and other places.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’re talking about it with Sukey Lewis, criminal justice reporter for KQED and host of the \u003cem>On Our Watch\u003c/em> podcast you might be familiar with. Jennifer Raymond is with us, an animal advocate and whistleblower who kicked off the Miranda’s Rescue investigation, along with Jenna Moore, also an animal advocate. And Jennifer is also founder of Humboldt’s Spay Neuter Clinic and Humboldt’s Critters Without Litters.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Listeners, what questions do you have about the investigation? Are you a shelter owner or work at a shelter or a private animal owner? Have you ever interacted with Miranda’s Rescue? What questions do you have about how California regulates and oversees animal shelters and transfers?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You can tell us by emailing forum@kqed.org, finding us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, and by calling 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Stay with us. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Monday, September 21, 2026 at 10 am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When animal advocates in Humboldt County unearthed dog carcasses on the property of Miranda’s Rescue, they exposed an alleged cruelty and fraud operation that has shocked animal welfare groups across the state. A sprawling multi-agency investigation has since revealed mass graves, dozens of canine skulls and records for hundreds of unaccounted-for dogs transferred from municipal shelters to a sanctuary that marketed itself as a “no-kill” refuge. We’ll look at the latest findings in the investigation, explore why prior warnings were overlooked and discuss what it will take to reform California’s strained animal rescue system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis,\u003c/strong> criminal justice reporter, KQED; host and reporter; “On Our Watch”; co-founder, the California Reporting Project\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond, \u003c/strong>founder of Humboldt Spay/Neuter Clinic; founder of Humboldt Critters without Litters\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore,\u003c/strong> animal advocate; whistleblower who kicked off the Miranda’s Rescue investigation\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Shannon Miranda,\u003c/strong> owner, Miranda’s Rescue\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. A no-kill shelter in Fortuna called Miranda’s Rescue describes itself as a safe haven for animals, a place to heal and educate. And for years, shelters from across California have sent animals there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, Miranda’s Rescue is under investigation by the Humboldt County Sheriff’s Office, the FBI and other law enforcement agencies, after two county residents, Jennifer Raymond and Jenna Moore, found eight dogs buried in a grave on the property and alerted authorities. To date, no formal charges have been filed against the rescue’s owner.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And this hour, we get the latest on the investigation with KQED criminal justice reporter Sukey Lewis, who joins us now. Hi, Sukey.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> Hi. Good morning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also with us, the two animal advocates who found the dogs and triggered the investigation. Jennifer Raymond is in studio with me, co-founder of Humboldt’s Spay Neuter Clinic. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, Jennifer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> Thank you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also, Jenna Moore joins us from KRED, a radio station in Eureka. Jenna, glad to have you with us too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> Yes, thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Jennifer, I want to start with you. Tell me about that night you found those eight dogs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> Well, we knew that he must be killing dogs, and there was a large pile of dirt and a big hole on the property. We had put up trail cams to watch, and on a Sunday afternoon, a bright and sunny afternoon, we saw him come out on his tractor with the bucket with straw in it, meaning the owner of the rescue, Shannon Miranda. And he turned straight toward the camera and began dumping. And at that point, you could see that there were bodies under the straw. And at that point, Jen and I knew that we had to go out there, and we had to get those bodies as evidence that dogs were being killed at this rescue in return for large sums of money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Jenna, what made you and Jennifer decide to risk the consequences of, you know, essentially breaking trespassing and property damage laws to get these dog carcasses?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> We actually didn’t have a conversation about any of the legalities prior. And we didn’t have any intentions of actually bringing the bodies back. We just thought, okay, if they need more evidence, we’ll go in, this is our time, and we’ll microchip scan them, take photos and videos, and then that’ll be enough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But once we actually got down in there and the bodies were still warm, and it just got pretty emotional, we kind of looked at each other and I just said, “We’re not leaving these guys here. I’m taking them home.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, yeah, we got back, and that’s when we had that discussion. And we just said, well, you know what, we’ll take it. If we’re going to have trespassing and stolen property thrown at us, then, you know, it was worth it. So.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Jennifer, Jenna says they need more evidence. Who’s “they”? What were you trying to do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> We were trying to get enough evidence to get the sheriff to go in and get a search warrant and investigate what was going on here. I had been trying to bring down this rescue for years. I filed my first complaint against it in 2006, 20 years before, and we could never get the sheriff to do anything. And so we felt that whatever it took, we needed to get them to go in and take action to stop what was happening, which was the killing of animals.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Physical evidence. Well, Sukey, it sounds like it worked, right? The investigation got launched, and in fact the area was excavated. Tell me what investigators have found.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> So there were two search warrants so far that have been served on the property. One that was shortly after Jenna and Jennifer brought the evidence of these animals to the sheriff. And I want to say one of the really key things about what they uncovered was that the dogs were microchipped, and so they could trace them back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And one of these dogs in particular, named Zora, was traced back to Oakland Animal Services. And their owner of the shelter had said that Shannon Miranda had told him that this dog had been adopted. And so that kind of laid the groundwork for a potential fraud investigation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And also the bullet wounds. I’m sorry, for people who, this is difficult to hear.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It is difficult. In this show, we’ll leave it at that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> But they found that in the animals that they recovered, there were bullet wounds, evidence of the dogs being shot. And so the sheriff began investigating these allegations of potential fraud and also potential animal cruelty.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the first search warrant they did really focused on looking at paperwork and stuff like that. The second search warrant, which was served in late June, was a much bigger operation. And this involved the FBI, the USDA, you know, archaeologists, because they went in and basically began to unearth these mass graves that were at the back of Shannon Miranda’s property, at the back of the rescue, and ultimately pulled, you know, 117 dog remains, carcasses that were intact, a number of microchips, skulls, and began the process of trying to identify where they came from.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s also a financial aspect to this because this is supposed to be a charity, a nonprofit. And so I think they’re investigating, you know, was the money that they were taking in under these auspices as a no-kill shelter appropriately used? And was all the correct reporting going to the IRS and also, you know, the organizations that monitor charities?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> How many dogs have gone through this shelter, generally, in the time frame that it sounds like the authorities are investigating?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> It has grown over time, but in the latest numbers from the sheriff, he said they have reports of about a thousand dogs. Some of those did predate the 2025 time period, predate January 2025. Mostly between January 2025 and spring of 2026, 900 dogs were found to have been transferred there, and they found adoption paperwork for about a hundred of them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There were also a number of dogs that were still alive on the property. And so the sheriff says there’s about 750 dogs that they just do not know what happened to. And so the investigation is trying to pin down where those animals went. Were they adopted? You know, Shannon Miranda, I want to say, has said, like, he is just really bad at paperwork and that many of these dogs were adopted, not killed. But that’s kind of where the numbers stand at this point.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And from where have these animals come from? I understand it’s a very wide range geographically across the state.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> From all over the state. I mean, for Bay Area listeners, Oakland Animal Services sent hundreds of dogs there. One dog, we understand from the sheriff, came all the way from Hawaii. And there have been dogs from Kern County, from Southern California, from, you know, the local — he also had contracts with some of the local towns. So it’s really a range of kind of local dogs and then dogs from all over the state.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And it’s been operating for some 28, 30 years or so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> Yeah, 31 years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. You know, Jenna, this is a story that has gotten national attention. Why do you think that is? Or Jennifer. Let’s see if we can reconnect with Jenna. Jennifer? Sorry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> This is Jenna.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Oh, hi, Jenna.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jenna Moore:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think that, you know, we have a lot of animal advocates and people who just love animals, and you just never hear of things like this. So I think this is kind of a whole different caliber of what we’re normally used to seeing, and I think it’s just gotten the attention of so many.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, we use dogs for cadavers, our police officers use them, they’re used in many ways that, you know, they’re a part of our lives in some way, shape or form, and I think that this has just touched so many people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> Well, I think it really shatters the mythology of no-kill and save them all. Everybody wants to believe that there is some place where all the excess dogs can go that end up in animal shelters. We don’t want them killed in shelters. And people are horrified to learn that animals were pulled out of shelters at great expense and transported to a place where they ended up being brutally killed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Sukey, to date, though, I understand that no charges have been filed against Miranda’s Rescue or the rescue’s owner, and that he’s denied any wrongdoing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> Yes. No charges have been filed. The Humboldt County Sheriff recently sent a statement in which he said the investigation is very complex, you know, tracing all these animals back, and that they’re not going to be rushed. He has repeatedly kind of urged patience on the part of the public, who have kind of been outraged.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I think it’s important to note, it appears that, you know, in a recent statement, my colleague Zoe Farigno, who has been reporting on this story, she spoke to Shannon Miranda a little over a week ago, and he said there’s still animals coming in for adoption, despite his conditional use permit being suspended. So there are still animals there for adoption, and he’s still at this point operating.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What did sheriff’s officials say? Did you tell them that when you followed up with that information?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> They know.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jennifer Raymond:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the sheriff has maintained that he is free to continue operating the rescue.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/strong> No charges have been filed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, we also reached out to Sheriff William Hansel, and he sent a statement to us as well. And he said that Mr. Miranda and his media representatives are free to make whatever public statements they choose and present their version of events as they see fit. And we will be joined later by Shannon Miranda.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And as you say, Sukey, he says that the investigation into Miranda’s Rescue remains very active and continues to be handled with the seriousness it deserves. He writes, “The Humboldt County Sheriff’s Office, however, has remained committed to releasing only factual information that is appropriate to disclose during an active criminal investigation.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Listeners, we’re talking about the ongoing investigation into Miranda’s Rescue in Humboldt County. A sprawling, multi-agency investigation there has revealed mass graves, canine skulls, records for hundreds of dogs that are unaccounted for but were transferred there from municipal shelters and other places.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re talking about it with Sukey Lewis, criminal justice reporter for KQED and host of the \u003cem>On Our Watch\u003c/em> podcast you might be familiar with. Jennifer Raymond is with us, an animal advocate and whistleblower who kicked off the Miranda’s Rescue investigation, along with Jenna Moore, also an animal advocate. And Jennifer is also founder of Humboldt’s Spay Neuter Clinic and Humboldt’s Critters Without Litters.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Listeners, what questions do you have about the investigation? Are you a shelter owner or work at a shelter or a private animal owner? Have you ever interacted with Miranda’s Rescue? What questions do you have about how California regulates and oversees animal shelters and transfers?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can tell us by emailing forum@kqed.org, finding us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, and by calling 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Stay with us. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Airdate: Monday, Sept 14 at 10 AM\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In 1991, China scholar and journalist Orville Schell teamed up with CBS News’ 60 Minutes for a perilous undercover investigation into China’s \u003cem>laogai\u003c/em>—a vast network of forced labor camps secretly exporting goods into American markets. Fearing severe retaliation against his family and friends in China, Schell shelved his written account for three decades. In his new book, “Inside China’s Secret Prisons: An Undercover Exposé and Its Lasting Legacy,” Schell reveals how that clandestine operation played out and shares why forced labor persists in China today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell,\u003c/strong> director of the Center on US-China Relations at the Asia Society and author of the new book “Inside China’s Secret Prisons: An Undercover Exposé and Its Lasting Legacy”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Orville Schell has been a leading scholar on China for more than 50 years, visiting the nation since the 1970s. He’s Asia Society’s Director of the Center on U.S.-China Relations and former Dean of UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism. In 1991, Schell helped CBS’s 60 Minutes conduct an exposé into China’s forced labor camps, where prisoners were making products that were being secretly exported to American markets. But he shelved the written account he’d promised then to The New Yorker until now. Schell’s new book, called \u003cem>Inside China’s Secret Prisons\u003c/em>, recounts the making of the 60 Minutes episode and how forced labor, despite its illegality, still supplies U.S. and other global markets today. Orville Schell joins me now. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Pleasure. So, Orville, help me understand, first of all, just the origins and theory behind the state-imposed forced labor system in China.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, you know, when China became the People’s Republic of China in 1949, after Mao Zedong defeated Chiang Kai-shek and he fled to Taiwan, they adopted sort of wholesale the Soviet system of government. You know, all of the relationship between the party and the state, all the structures were just adopted wholesale. And part of that, of course, was Russia’s system of penal institutions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But interestingly, China added a dimension to what Russians had long used in Siberia, which is namely just imprison people and you make them work and it’s punishment. But Mao Zedong had a kind of a new element he threw into the pot, and that was that, trying to follow the dictum of Stalin that part of socialist revolution was to re-engineer the human soul, he thought, okay, it’s not just enough to put people in prison. We need to add another element, and that was thought reform. What we have referred to in this country often as brainwashing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the idea was that if you could help people understand their political incorrectness, you know, the incorrectness of their thinking, that was as crucial as to make them pay, you know, penance for their so-called political crimes. So they added that element. So, reformed through labor camps meant that you got reformed by working for the state at no pay or extremely low pay in rare cases, but you also had to reform yourself politically and also, although Mao never wrote about this, psychologically.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So then, if it was about thought reform, the people that were there were there because they were political prisoners, essentially, because they said and, quote unquote, thought things that were wrong according to the government.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Yes, there’s this sort of wonderfully quaint term in Chinese, incorrect thought. And that thought needs to be, quote, rectified. And it can be rectified if the party compels people while in prison or even out of prison to go to all these struggle sessions and study meetings.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I went to a bunch of these when I was first in China, when Mao was still alive and the Cultural Revolution was still going on. I mean, these head-bangingly boring meetings where you had to read some document. You had to deliver self-criticisms about your own thinking and even confessions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And these were sort of exercises that really did undermine, I think, people’s belief in themselves. Because if, in fact, there’s a punishment and you’re in prison, shouldn’t there logically also be a crime? So then people start searching within themselves, all right, what did I do wrong? How can I get out of this bind? So it was a very crippling exercise that Mao Zedong sort of inadvertently tripped upon and threw into the whole question of incarceration for political purposes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, so these places were not just physically savage, but also sort of mentally savage as well. And then in the, I guess, early 1990s or late — was it 1991 when David Gelber approached you, a 60 Minutes producer calls you up and says he wants to document these places. Tell me what your reaction was to that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, I didn’t know this guy, David Gelber, who was a producer for Ed Bradley at 60 Minutes, and I just thought he was bereft of his senses. I mean, you know, you want to get into Chinese prisons with a giant camera and a big TV crew and a sound man with a fishnet vest and the whole nine yards. There wasn’t a snowball’s chance in hell that that could happen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So how did he convince you, then, to get in?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, he kept at it. And I thought this is interesting, but I really couldn’t see how to do it. It was a rather terrifying prospect, too, to think of trying to penetrate this prison system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But then it suddenly occurred to me that I’d met someone who was at Stanford at the Hoover Institution, who’d spent 19 years in the camps and was documenting that as his project at Stanford. So I called him up, and his first reaction was, “I don’t want anything to do with this. The people I know, I would never introduce you to. There’s no hope of anything.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But we kept up the conversation. And then one day, he kind of got a strange look in his eye. This was Wu Hongda, or Harry Wu. And he said, “You know what?” He said, “If anybody goes back to China to do this, I should do it. Because I know what I’m doing. I know where the camps are, I know people who are in the camps, living outside of them now because they have no homes or no family to go back to and working in the prison factories. I could go back and possibly get some video.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Why was Harry Wu imprisoned in these camps in the first place?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> You know, he never really knew why, and this is one of the ways that I think this whole protocol of imprisonment and ideological reform is so powerful, is that very often you will ask the Chinese Communist Party or the cadres, whatever, if you’re being interrogated, detained, imprisoned, whatever. You’ll say, well, what was the fault? What was the crime? And they say, “You know what you did.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And of course that triggers everybody to think of a thousand reasons why they might have run off the rails somehow. So it was during, I think, the Hungarian uprising in 1956 that he did speak out. He thinks that was the reason, and thus he was locked up as a rightist.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Locked up for 19 years and yet willing to go back. What was he risking by doing this investigation, undercover investigation, with you and 60 Minutes?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, I asked myself that very question. I wondered, what motivates this person? As I got to know him, I began to realize that one of the things that probably gave him both the fortitude and the reason to risk going back to the very camps he’d been in, which he could end up in again, was that he was a Catholic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He was raised in a very wealthy Shanghai banking family. And he went to Jesuit schools, and his father was also deeply religious. And he often said to me that his faith was what sustained him in the camps.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And as we got to know each other and worked very closely together for almost a year, he often felt he owed it to them. And I said, who’s them? And he said, all the other people who were in the camp, and there were millions of them, who cannot speak out. Many are dead, many are damaged, but many are incapable of being able to say anything about what happened to themselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with China scholar and journalist Orville Schell about his 60 Minutes investigation to infiltrate China’s forced labor camps in 1991, and he’s written a book about it called \u003cem>Inside China’s Secret Prisons: An Undercover Exposé and Its Lasting Legacy\u003c/em>. We will talk about its lasting legacy today, but listeners, you’re invited to join the conversation. If you know anything about China’s forced labor detention system or want to ask Orville about it, you can email \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> at kqed.org. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram. We’re at KQED Forum. Or you can call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And let me remind listeners, you are listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. He did understand the stakes, though. I do understand that he insisted on recording on camera sort of a last will and testament. Horrible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, before we actually went to China, and he began trying to penetrate these old camps with a camera bag that had a peephole and a hidden Sony cam inside the camera bag peeking out, he of course got very, very concerned about — you know, he realized he was going back into the dragon’s lair and he wasn’t sure what would happen, and I was going to go back with him, be sort of backup should anything happen, provide him with video cassettes, take the cassettes that he might succeed in shooting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so he did go back, and it was pretty extraordinary what he succeeded in doing. And the great tragedy was he got out with all these tapes, and all of the 60 Minutes crew from New York came out to Berkeley. And we got a big suite in the Fairmont. We started putting these cassettes into the video player, all excited and thinking we had the cat in the bag.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And one after the other. I mean, the video on it was pictures of the sky, pictures of his feet, he’s running, you know, “We have to get out of here.” There wasn’t one 10-second sequence in all of the hours he had shot that was suitable for commercial American television.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow, you write about the Velcro flap, you know, the bag being over the — I mean, it is just heartbreaking to listen to. And yet, ultimately, you know, this does happen. He does go back to try to make all this happen again, shoot it again, risk his life and his freedom again. And this does ultimately air on 60 Minutes in 1991.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And after the break we’ll get into that saga more and more. But, you know, it is pretty incredible that this aired back then, and what I really want to get into is why, even though this aired in 1991, you didn’t want to publish your written account.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ll have more with Orville Schell right after the break. His book about China’s secret prisons and undercover exposé and its lasting legacy about a perilous attempt to investigate the forced labor camps for 60 Minutes and what made Orville write a written account of it, release a written account of it now. Stay with us. You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Orville Schell has been a leading scholar on China for more than 50 years, visiting the nation since the 1970s. He’s Asia Society’s Director of the Center on U.S.-China Relations and former Dean of UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism. In 1991, Schell helped CBS’s 60 Minutes conduct an exposé into China’s forced labor camps, where prisoners were making products that were being secretly exported to American markets. But he shelved the written account he’d promised then to The New Yorker until now. Schell’s new book, called \u003cem>Inside China’s Secret Prisons\u003c/em>, recounts the making of the 60 Minutes episode and how forced labor, despite its illegality, still supplies U.S. and other global markets today. Orville Schell joins me now. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, you know, when China became the People’s Republic of China in 1949, after Mao Zedong defeated Chiang Kai-shek and he fled to Taiwan, they adopted sort of wholesale the Soviet system of government. You know, all of the relationship between the party and the state, all the structures were just adopted wholesale. And part of that, of course, was Russia’s system of penal institutions.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But interestingly, China added a dimension to what Russians had long used in Siberia, which is namely just imprison people and you make them work and it’s punishment. But Mao Zedong had a kind of a new element he threw into the pot, and that was that, trying to follow the dictum of Stalin that part of socialist revolution was to re-engineer the human soul, he thought, okay, it’s not just enough to put people in prison. We need to add another element, and that was thought reform. What we have referred to in this country often as brainwashing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, so these places were not just physically savage, but also sort of mentally savage as well. And then in the, I guess, early 1990s or late — was it 1991 when David Gelber approached you, a 60 Minutes producer calls you up and says he wants to document these places. Tell me what your reaction was to that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So how did he convince you, then, to get in?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, he kept at it. And I thought this is interesting, but I really couldn’t see how to do it. It was a rather terrifying prospect, too, to think of trying to penetrate this prison system.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, he kept at it. And I thought this is interesting, but I really couldn’t see how to do it. It was a rather terrifying prospect, too, to think of trying to penetrate this prison system.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But then it suddenly occurred to me that I’d met someone who was at Stanford at the Hoover Institution, who’d spent 19 years in the camps and was documenting that as his project at Stanford. So I called him up, and his first reaction was, “I don’t want anything to do with this. The people I know, I would never introduce you to. There’s no hope of anything.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But then it suddenly occurred to me that I’d met someone who was at Stanford at the Hoover Institution, who’d spent 19 years in the camps and was documenting that as his project at Stanford. So I called him up, and his first reaction was, “I don’t want anything to do with this. The people I know, I would never introduce you to. There’s no hope of anything.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But we kept up the conversation. And then one day, he kind of got a strange look in his eye. This was Wu Hongda, or Harry Wu. And he said, “You know what?” He said, “If anybody goes back to China to do this, I should do it. Because I know what I’m doing. I know where the camps are, I know people who are in the camps, living outside of them now because they have no homes or no family to go back to and working in the prison factories. I could go back and possibly get some video.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But we kept up the conversation. And then one day, he kind of got a strange look in his eye. This was Wu Hongda, or Harry Wu. And he said, “You know what?” He said, “If anybody goes back to China to do this, I should do it. Because I know what I’m doing. I know where the camps are, I know people who are in the camps, living outside of them now because they have no homes or no family to go back to and working in the prison factories. I could go back and possibly get some video.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Why was Harry Wu imprisoned in these camps in the first place?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> You know, he never really knew why, and this is one of the ways that I think this whole protocol of imprisonment and ideological reform is so powerful, is that very often you will ask the Chinese Communist Party or the cadres, whatever, if you’re being interrogated, detained, imprisoned, whatever. You’ll say, well, what was the fault? What was the crime? And they say, “You know what you did.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> You know, he never really knew why, and this is one of the ways that I think this whole protocol of imprisonment and ideological reform is so powerful, is that very often you will ask the Chinese Communist Party or the cadres, whatever, if you’re being interrogated, detained, imprisoned, whatever. You’ll say, well, what was the fault? What was the crime? And they say, “You know what you did.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And of course that triggers everybody to think of a thousand reasons why they might have run off the rails somehow. So it was during, I think, the Hungarian uprising in 1956 that he did speak out. He thinks that was the reason, and thus he was locked up as a rightist.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And of course that triggers everybody to think of a thousand reasons why they might have run off the rails somehow. So it was during, I think, the Hungarian uprising in 1956 that he did speak out. He thinks that was the reason, and thus he was locked up as a rightist.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Locked up for 19 years and yet willing to go back. What was he risking by doing this investigation, undercover investigation, with you and 60 Minutes?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Locked up for 19 years and yet willing to go back. What was he risking by doing this investigation, undercover investigation, with you and 60 Minutes?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, I asked myself that very question. I wondered, what motivates this person? As I got to know him, I began to realize that one of the things that probably gave him both the fortitude and the reason to risk going back to the very camps he’d been in, which he could end up in again, was that he was a Catholic.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, I asked myself that very question. I wondered, what motivates this person? As I got to know him, I began to realize that one of the things that probably gave him both the fortitude and the reason to risk going back to the very camps he’d been in, which he could end up in again, was that he was a Catholic.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He was raised in a very wealthy Shanghai banking family. And he went to Jesuit schools, and his father was also deeply religious. And he often said to me that his faith was what sustained him in the camps.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>He was raised in a very wealthy Shanghai banking family. And he went to Jesuit schools, and his father was also deeply religious. And he often said to me that his faith was what sustained him in the camps.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And as we got to know each other and worked very closely together for almost a year, he often felt he owed it to them. And I said, who’s them? And he said, all the other people who were in the camp, and there were millions of them, who cannot speak out. Many are dead, many are damaged, but many are incapable of being able to say anything about what happened to themselves.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And as we got to know each other and worked very closely together for almost a year, he often felt he owed it to them. And I said, who’s them? And he said, all the other people who were in the camp, and there were millions of them, who cannot speak out. Many are dead, many are damaged, but many are incapable of being able to say anything about what happened to themselves.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with China scholar and journalist Orville Schell about his 60 Minutes investigation to infiltrate China’s forced labor camps in 1991, and he’s written a book about it called \u003cem>Inside China’s Secret Prisons: An Undercover Exposé and Its Lasting Legacy\u003c/em>. We will talk about its lasting legacy today, but listeners, you’re invited to join the conversation. If you know anything about China’s forced labor detention system or want to ask Orville about it, you can email \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> at kqed.org. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram. We’re at KQED Forum. Or you can call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with China scholar and journalist Orville Schell about his 60 Minutes investigation to infiltrate China’s forced labor camps in 1991, and he’s written a book about it called \u003cem>Inside China’s Secret Prisons: An Undercover Exposé and Its Lasting Legacy\u003c/em>. We will talk about its lasting legacy today, but listeners, you’re invited to join the conversation. If you know anything about China’s forced labor detention system or want to ask Orville about it, you can email \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> at kqed.org. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram. We’re at KQED Forum. Or you can call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And let me remind listeners, you are listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. He did understand the stakes, though. I do understand that he insisted on recording on camera sort of a last will and testament. Horrible.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And let me remind listeners, you are listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. He did understand the stakes, though. I do understand that he insisted on recording on camera sort of a last will and testament. Horrible.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, before we actually went to China, and he began trying to penetrate these old camps with a camera bag that had a peephole and a hidden Sony cam inside the camera bag peeking out, he of course got very, very concerned about — you know, he realized he was going back into the dragon’s lair and he wasn’t sure what would happen, and I was going to go back with him, be sort of backup should anything happen, provide him with video cassettes, take the cassettes that he might succeed in shooting.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, before we actually went to China, and he began trying to penetrate these old camps with a camera bag that had a peephole and a hidden Sony cam inside the camera bag peeking out, he of course got very, very concerned about — you know, he realized he was going back into the dragon’s lair and he wasn’t sure what would happen, and I was going to go back with him, be sort of backup should anything happen, provide him with video cassettes, take the cassettes that he might succeed in shooting.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so he did go back, and it was pretty extraordinary what he succeeded in doing. And the great tragedy was he got out with all these tapes, and all of the 60 Minutes crew from New York came out to Berkeley. And we got a big suite in the Fairmont. We started putting these cassettes into the video player, all excited and thinking we had the cat in the bag.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so he did go back, and it was pretty extraordinary what he succeeded in doing. And the great tragedy was he got out with all these tapes, and all of the 60 Minutes crew from New York came out to Berkeley. And we got a big suite in the Fairmont. We started putting these cassettes into the video player, all excited and thinking we had the cat in the bag.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And one after the other. I mean, the video on it was pictures of the sky, pictures of his feet, he’s running, you know, “We have to get out of here.” There wasn’t one 10-second sequence in all of the hours he had shot that was suitable for commercial American television.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And one after the other. I mean, the video on it was pictures of the sky, pictures of his feet, he’s running, you know, “We have to get out of here.” There wasn’t one 10-second sequence in all of the hours he had shot that was suitable for commercial American television.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow, you write about the Velcro flap, you know, the bag being over the — I mean, it is just heartbreaking to listen to. And yet, ultimately, you know, this does happen. He does go back to try to make all this happen again, shoot it again, risk his life and his freedom again. And this does ultimately air on 60 Minutes in 1991.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow, you write about the Velcro flap, you know, the bag being over the — I mean, it is just heartbreaking to listen to. And yet, ultimately, you know, this does happen. He does go back to try to make all this happen again, shoot it again, risk his life and his freedom again. And this does ultimately air on 60 Minutes in 1991.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And after the break we’ll get into that saga more and more. But, you know, it is pretty incredible that this aired back then, and what I really want to get into is why, even though this aired in 1991, you didn’t want to publish your written account.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And after the break we’ll get into that saga more and more. But, you know, it is pretty incredible that this aired back then, and what I really want to get into is why, even though this aired in 1991, you didn’t want to publish your written account.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’ll have more with Orville Schell right after the break. His book about China’s secret prisons and undercover exposé and its lasting legacy about a perilous attempt to investigate the forced labor camps for 60 Minutes and what made Orville write a written account of it, release a written account of it now. Stay with us. You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Airdate: Monday, Sept 14 at 10 AM\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In 1991, China scholar and journalist Orville Schell teamed up with CBS News’ 60 Minutes for a perilous undercover investigation into China’s \u003cem>laogai\u003c/em>—a vast network of forced labor camps secretly exporting goods into American markets. Fearing severe retaliation against his family and friends in China, Schell shelved his written account for three decades. In his new book, “Inside China’s Secret Prisons: An Undercover Exposé and Its Lasting Legacy,” Schell reveals how that clandestine operation played out and shares why forced labor persists in China today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell,\u003c/strong> director of the Center on US-China Relations at the Asia Society and author of the new book “Inside China’s Secret Prisons: An Undercover Exposé and Its Lasting Legacy”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Orville Schell has been a leading scholar on China for more than 50 years, visiting the nation since the 1970s. He’s Asia Society’s Director of the Center on U.S.-China Relations and former Dean of UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism. In 1991, Schell helped CBS’s 60 Minutes conduct an exposé into China’s forced labor camps, where prisoners were making products that were being secretly exported to American markets. But he shelved the written account he’d promised then to The New Yorker until now. Schell’s new book, called \u003cem>Inside China’s Secret Prisons\u003c/em>, recounts the making of the 60 Minutes episode and how forced labor, despite its illegality, still supplies U.S. and other global markets today. Orville Schell joins me now. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Pleasure. So, Orville, help me understand, first of all, just the origins and theory behind the state-imposed forced labor system in China.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, you know, when China became the People’s Republic of China in 1949, after Mao Zedong defeated Chiang Kai-shek and he fled to Taiwan, they adopted sort of wholesale the Soviet system of government. You know, all of the relationship between the party and the state, all the structures were just adopted wholesale. And part of that, of course, was Russia’s system of penal institutions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But interestingly, China added a dimension to what Russians had long used in Siberia, which is namely just imprison people and you make them work and it’s punishment. But Mao Zedong had a kind of a new element he threw into the pot, and that was that, trying to follow the dictum of Stalin that part of socialist revolution was to re-engineer the human soul, he thought, okay, it’s not just enough to put people in prison. We need to add another element, and that was thought reform. What we have referred to in this country often as brainwashing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the idea was that if you could help people understand their political incorrectness, you know, the incorrectness of their thinking, that was as crucial as to make them pay, you know, penance for their so-called political crimes. So they added that element. So, reformed through labor camps meant that you got reformed by working for the state at no pay or extremely low pay in rare cases, but you also had to reform yourself politically and also, although Mao never wrote about this, psychologically.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So then, if it was about thought reform, the people that were there were there because they were political prisoners, essentially, because they said and, quote unquote, thought things that were wrong according to the government.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Yes, there’s this sort of wonderfully quaint term in Chinese, incorrect thought. And that thought needs to be, quote, rectified. And it can be rectified if the party compels people while in prison or even out of prison to go to all these struggle sessions and study meetings.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I went to a bunch of these when I was first in China, when Mao was still alive and the Cultural Revolution was still going on. I mean, these head-bangingly boring meetings where you had to read some document. You had to deliver self-criticisms about your own thinking and even confessions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And these were sort of exercises that really did undermine, I think, people’s belief in themselves. Because if, in fact, there’s a punishment and you’re in prison, shouldn’t there logically also be a crime? So then people start searching within themselves, all right, what did I do wrong? How can I get out of this bind? So it was a very crippling exercise that Mao Zedong sort of inadvertently tripped upon and threw into the whole question of incarceration for political purposes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, so these places were not just physically savage, but also sort of mentally savage as well. And then in the, I guess, early 1990s or late — was it 1991 when David Gelber approached you, a 60 Minutes producer calls you up and says he wants to document these places. Tell me what your reaction was to that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, I didn’t know this guy, David Gelber, who was a producer for Ed Bradley at 60 Minutes, and I just thought he was bereft of his senses. I mean, you know, you want to get into Chinese prisons with a giant camera and a big TV crew and a sound man with a fishnet vest and the whole nine yards. There wasn’t a snowball’s chance in hell that that could happen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So how did he convince you, then, to get in?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, he kept at it. And I thought this is interesting, but I really couldn’t see how to do it. It was a rather terrifying prospect, too, to think of trying to penetrate this prison system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But then it suddenly occurred to me that I’d met someone who was at Stanford at the Hoover Institution, who’d spent 19 years in the camps and was documenting that as his project at Stanford. So I called him up, and his first reaction was, “I don’t want anything to do with this. The people I know, I would never introduce you to. There’s no hope of anything.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But we kept up the conversation. And then one day, he kind of got a strange look in his eye. This was Wu Hongda, or Harry Wu. And he said, “You know what?” He said, “If anybody goes back to China to do this, I should do it. Because I know what I’m doing. I know where the camps are, I know people who are in the camps, living outside of them now because they have no homes or no family to go back to and working in the prison factories. I could go back and possibly get some video.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Why was Harry Wu imprisoned in these camps in the first place?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> You know, he never really knew why, and this is one of the ways that I think this whole protocol of imprisonment and ideological reform is so powerful, is that very often you will ask the Chinese Communist Party or the cadres, whatever, if you’re being interrogated, detained, imprisoned, whatever. You’ll say, well, what was the fault? What was the crime? And they say, “You know what you did.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And of course that triggers everybody to think of a thousand reasons why they might have run off the rails somehow. So it was during, I think, the Hungarian uprising in 1956 that he did speak out. He thinks that was the reason, and thus he was locked up as a rightist.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Locked up for 19 years and yet willing to go back. What was he risking by doing this investigation, undercover investigation, with you and 60 Minutes?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, I asked myself that very question. I wondered, what motivates this person? As I got to know him, I began to realize that one of the things that probably gave him both the fortitude and the reason to risk going back to the very camps he’d been in, which he could end up in again, was that he was a Catholic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He was raised in a very wealthy Shanghai banking family. And he went to Jesuit schools, and his father was also deeply religious. And he often said to me that his faith was what sustained him in the camps.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And as we got to know each other and worked very closely together for almost a year, he often felt he owed it to them. And I said, who’s them? And he said, all the other people who were in the camp, and there were millions of them, who cannot speak out. Many are dead, many are damaged, but many are incapable of being able to say anything about what happened to themselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with China scholar and journalist Orville Schell about his 60 Minutes investigation to infiltrate China’s forced labor camps in 1991, and he’s written a book about it called \u003cem>Inside China’s Secret Prisons: An Undercover Exposé and Its Lasting Legacy\u003c/em>. We will talk about its lasting legacy today, but listeners, you’re invited to join the conversation. If you know anything about China’s forced labor detention system or want to ask Orville about it, you can email \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> at kqed.org. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram. We’re at KQED Forum. Or you can call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And let me remind listeners, you are listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. He did understand the stakes, though. I do understand that he insisted on recording on camera sort of a last will and testament. Horrible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Orville Schell:\u003c/strong> Well, before we actually went to China, and he began trying to penetrate these old camps with a camera bag that had a peephole and a hidden Sony cam inside the camera bag peeking out, he of course got very, very concerned about — you know, he realized he was going back into the dragon’s lair and he wasn’t sure what would happen, and I was going to go back with him, be sort of backup should anything happen, provide him with video cassettes, take the cassettes that he might succeed in shooting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so he did go back, and it was pretty extraordinary what he succeeded in doing. And the great tragedy was he got out with all these tapes, and all of the 60 Minutes crew from New York came out to Berkeley. And we got a big suite in the Fairmont. We started putting these cassettes into the video player, all excited and thinking we had the cat in the bag.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And one after the other. I mean, the video on it was pictures of the sky, pictures of his feet, he’s running, you know, “We have to get out of here.” There wasn’t one 10-second sequence in all of the hours he had shot that was suitable for commercial American television.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow, you write about the Velcro flap, you know, the bag being over the — I mean, it is just heartbreaking to listen to. And yet, ultimately, you know, this does happen. He does go back to try to make all this happen again, shoot it again, risk his life and his freedom again. And this does ultimately air on 60 Minutes in 1991.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And after the break we’ll get into that saga more and more. But, you know, it is pretty incredible that this aired back then, and what I really want to get into is why, even though this aired in 1991, you didn’t want to publish your written account.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ll have more with Orville Schell right after the break. His book about China’s secret prisons and undercover exposé and its lasting legacy about a perilous attempt to investigate the forced labor camps for 60 Minutes and what made Orville write a written account of it, release a written account of it now. Stay with us. You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Thursday, September 3, 2026 at 10am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At this week’s G20 summit in Asheville, N.C., global finance leaders met amid a bond sell-off that threatened to raise the cost of long-term borrowing and upend global economic stability. That comes as the US national debt officially topped $40 trillion — a record high that’s double what it was a decade ago, raising serious concerns for some economists. With the nation’s spiraling debt showing no signs of slowing, is it too late to avoid a U.S. fiscal cliff catastrophe? We talk to economic experts about the current and future impacts, and whether there’s a solution.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley,\u003c/strong> chief economics correspondent, NPR News\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Talmon Joseph Smith,\u003c/strong> economics reporter, The New York Times\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Maya MacGuineas,\u003c/strong> president, Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Rachel Myrow in for Mina Kim. Maybe you’ve seen the news headlines about our spiraling national debt and thought, there is not enough coffee in the world to get me to click on that. I can’t promise this Forum segment won’t hurt, but hear me out. It’s not the math that’s hard. It is the politics. Which is why we brought in three eminent brains, all of whom can translate the economics of a $40 trillion debt for us and the politics. Fear not, dear Forum listeners, you are in good hands. We’re here with Scott Horsley, chief economics correspondent at NPR. Scott, always a pleasure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley:\u003c/strong> Nice to be with you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> And we’ve also got Talmon Joseph Smith, economics reporter for the business section of the New York Times. Talmon, welcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Hey, it’s great to be here. I’m psyched.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Well, let’s get started. Scott, walk me through this like I’m a golden retriever. What is the difference between the debt and the deficit?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley:\u003c/strong> Well, the deficit is the difference between what the government collects every year in tax revenue and what it spends. Right now, it’s about $2 trillion a year more that we’re spending than we are collecting in tax revenues. And so, in order to close that gap, the government goes out and borrows money. And if you add up all the accumulated borrowing from the last 250 years, that’s the debt.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, it was about $20 trillion as recently as 2017, and it’s now doubled to $40 trillion as of last month.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Okay, Talmon, since 2000, we have cut taxes tilted towards corporations and high earners four times: the two Bush tax cuts, the 2017 Trump tax cuts in his first term, and additional tax cuts in Trump’s second term. I know that this is a bipartisan problem with bipartisan causes, but is it fair to say that it’s more bipartisan towards Bush and Trump, or is that just politics getting in the way of understanding this?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Yeah, no, it’s a good question. No, I think, and Scott is a great example of this, it’s important to both recognize the bipartisan nature of any problem, but also, when there are asymmetries, it’s important to recognize and point out those asymmetries without fear or favor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it’s absolutely true that Republican administrations — the Bush administration, George W. Bush — did two massive tax cuts tilted towards corporations and the rich. But there were also middle-class tax cuts in there and tax cuts that helped small businesses. And then Donald Trump in his first term, now in the second term, has also passed multi-, multi-trillion-dollar tax cuts that are tilted towards the rich and corporations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, it’s also true that the Obama administration decided to extend the vast majority of the Bush tax cuts under pressure from its moderate wing and from the very powerful wing of its donor class. And that’s part of what makes it bipartisan.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And also the Democrats under Joe Biden in 2021 had a chance to, if they wanted to, take their slim majority, but majority nonetheless, and roll back not just the Trump tax cuts, but also roll back some aspects of the Bush tax cuts from long ago. They declined to do that for many of the same reasons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you can make political judgments, partisan judgments, about whether those were good reasons or not. But that is, as you suggested, a whole other conversation. What’s important is to point out the mathematics of that. And the math is true that if you take away those four massive tax cuts since the turn of the millennium, we’d be in a very, very different fiscal situation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, again, without stepping on the toes of the rest of the conversation, there’s actually a very active debate in the bond market on Wall Street about how bad the fiscal situation is outside of the inflationary aspects that we’re dealing with right now, which may or may not be connected to the size of the deficit itself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the core of your question is absolutely true, that our fiscal deterioration in terms of the mathematics comes from those four big sweeps of tax cuts, yes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Well, given that you brought it up, Talmon, I’m sorry to bring up a rival newsroom, but there’s this fabulous quote in yesterday’s Wall Street Journal about the effects on the markets of Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent’s plan to buy back more long-term bonds. The chief global strategist at JPMorgan Asset Management says, quote, “If the government says it’s going to raise taxes and cut spending to bring the deficit down, that’s one thing. Saying you found another credit card that you haven’t maxed out in your stack of 20 doesn’t actually inspire confidence,” fair?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Um, yeah. I believe that’s, uh — obviously, there are a lot of people high up at JPMorgan who have different titles. It sounds like that might be David Kelly at J.P. — very, very bright guy. Not only a markets guy, but a Ph.D. economist, and it’s no — it’s a good job. And far be it from me to cast too much doubt on anything that David Kelly has to say.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, but he also knows that, you know, the federal government doesn’t have credit cards like we do. The federal government has way, way more tools. The U.S. government also sells bonds in its own currency, it borrows in its own currency. The U.S. government can never actually go bankrupt. None of us have a money printer, and we can go on and on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But it is also true that whether it’s the Treasury or the Fed, the government does have limits, and for a bunch of very, very good reasons, we have a multigenerational tradition, not just in this country but around the globe, of market interest rates being set not just by central banks, but by investors and by households — you and I, people that have bonds in their IRAs or other investment portfolios — deciding, hey, which rate that is being offered on the market for this bond, for this fixed-income asset, is enough income over time right now, as I see it, so that I’ll be compensated for what I think inflation will be over the near term, over the medium term, and over the long term.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And he’s absolutely right that there’s a lot of hocus-pocus that a Treasury secretary of the United States can do. He is a very, very powerful figure, the Treasury secretary. But ultimately, he’s going to be fighting against market fundamentals. And the Treasury secretary knows that well as a longtime practitioner of markets before he took up his current seat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>My final declaration is that, yes, it is a fair joke, though, like always, they’re—\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley:\u003c/strong> Scott, yeah. And one of the reasons the debt is getting more attention right now is because those market interest rates, those interest rates that investors are demanding in exchange for lending money to the federal government, have been going up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So we have a sort of double whammy where we owe more money than we used to, a lot more, and we’re having to pay a higher interest rate to keep bankrolling that $40 trillion in debt. And the combination of a very big principal and a rising interest rate means that our cash payouts now to those investors who are financing our deficits, our annual deficits, keep going up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in the current fiscal year, we’ve already spent more than a trillion dollars just paying interest on all that old debt. So that’s a trillion dollars we have to raise and spend before we can, you know, pay out the first Social Security check or the first Medicare bill or buy the first F-15, whatever else we want to do as a federal government and as a country. We’ve got to pay that trillion-dollar interest tab first.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Scott, the word “investors” — it’s so gray, it’s so amorphous. Explain for us who the federal government owes all this money to: pension funds, foreign governments, retirees. It strikes me as a group with genuinely nothing in common except we owe them all money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s right. It’s all of those folks, and that may include many of your listeners. You know, through their own retirement accounts, or if they’ve got a bond fund parked in a brokerage someplace, they may be, in effect, bankrolling the government. And they’re doing so because that’s been traditionally a safe place to park their money and to get a not spectacular but solid and certainly ironclad return.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And those returns have been going up. Now, another reason they’re going up is for a long period of time — for most of the teens, for example — interest rates were super low because, as our colleagues at Planet Money said, there was this giant pool of money looking for a place to park, and one of the popular places to park was in U.S. government Treasuries. And so there was excess savings chasing that debt, and so the interest rates were really low for a really long time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But that giant pool of money is not so giant anymore. Or at least there’s a whole lot more places to park it. One place to park now is all the money that big tech companies are borrowing to build these data centers. They’re borrowing vast sums of money, and that’s another way that those investors, those savers, can park their money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the competition for that giant pool of savings is greater now, and that’s another reason that the interest rates have been rising.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Talmon, there was a global bond sell-off Tuesday. In plain English, what happened?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Right now — I shouldn’t even say right now. I’d say since spring, since the Iran war really kicked off between primarily Israel and the United States and Iran, though of course, as listeners of NPR know, the list of combatants has sort of spread and is sort of vacillating from month to month.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What that did is that spiked oil prices, and the prices of all sorts of ancillary products that have to deal with oil, that are petroleum-connected in some way. That’s inflationary. It also disrupted supply chains. That’s inflation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s also yet another signal of how globalization, which was, as Scott put in — you know, Scott mentioned the teens, the 2010s — globalization was thriving. The 2010s, it was thriving. It was thriving in the ’90s. It was thriving in the 2000s in general. We’ve seen that sort of a regime of globalization not only halt but reverse as we’ve seen either national economic priorities or global hostilities rise up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And one of the most immediate effects that you can expect from that, according to both, you know, academic economists and global bond portfolio managers, is you can expect interest rates to go up. And so that’s what we’ve seen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, we mentioned David Kelly at J.P. Morgan. Abby Yoder, who works at a different branch of J.P. Morgan, actually was interviewed this morning, and she mentioned, you know, her take on this, which is that we wouldn’t even be having this conversation, or at least we wouldn’t be having this level of worry about a global bond sell-off — or there might not even be a global bond sell-off — if this war were not going on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, of course, counterfactuals are hard to prove because inherently you can’t deal with them. But I thought that was a good point. And, you know—\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Point to step into the break. We are talking about the U.S. national debt officially topping $40 trillion, a record high, double what it was a decade ago, raising some serious concerns for economists. I don’t know about the rest of us, but folks, we want to hear your comments and questions. What are you worried about most, your retirement accounts or your credit card debt or both?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Rachel Myrow in for Mina Kim. Maybe you’ve seen the news headlines about our spiraling national debt and thought, there is not enough coffee in the world to get me to click on that. I can’t promise this Forum segment won’t hurt, but hear me out. It’s not the math that’s hard. It is the politics. Which is why we brought in three eminent brains, all of whom can translate the economics of a $40 trillion debt for us and the politics. Fear not, dear Forum listeners, you are in good hands. We’re here with Scott Horsley, chief economics correspondent at NPR. Scott, always a pleasure.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Rachel Myrow in for Mina Kim. Maybe you’ve seen the news headlines about our spiraling national debt and thought, there is not enough coffee in the world to get me to click on that. I can’t promise this Forum segment won’t hurt, but hear me out. It’s not the math that’s hard. It is the politics. Which is why we brought in three eminent brains, all of whom can translate the economics of a $40 trillion debt for us and the politics. Fear not, dear Forum listeners, you are in good hands. We’re here with Scott Horsley, chief economics correspondent at NPR. Scott, always a pleasure.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Well, let’s get started. Scott, walk me through this like I’m a golden retriever. What is the difference between the debt and the deficit?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Well, let’s get started. Scott, walk me through this like I’m a golden retriever. What is the difference between the debt and the deficit?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley:\u003c/strong> Well, the deficit is the difference between what the government collects every year in tax revenue and what it spends. Right now, it’s about $2 trillion a year more that we’re spending than we are collecting in tax revenues. And so, in order to close that gap, the government goes out and borrows money. And if you add up all the accumulated borrowing from the last 250 years, that’s the debt.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley:\u003c/strong> Well, the deficit is the difference between what the government collects every year in tax revenue and what it spends. Right now, it’s about $2 trillion a year more that we’re spending than we are collecting in tax revenues. And so, in order to close that gap, the government goes out and borrows money. And if you add up all the accumulated borrowing from the last 250 years, that’s the debt.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Uh, it was about $20 trillion as recently as 2017, and it’s now doubled to $40 trillion as of last month.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Uh, it was about $20 trillion as recently as 2017, and it’s now doubled to $40 trillion as of last month.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Okay, Talmon, since 2000, we have cut taxes tilted towards corporations and high earners four times: the two Bush tax cuts, the 2017 Trump tax cuts in his first term, and additional tax cuts in Trump’s second term. I know that this is a bipartisan problem with bipartisan causes, but is it fair to say that it’s more bipartisan towards Bush and Trump, or is that just politics getting in the way of understanding this?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Okay, Talmon, since 2000, we have cut taxes tilted towards corporations and high earners four times: the two Bush tax cuts, the 2017 Trump tax cuts in his first term, and additional tax cuts in Trump’s second term. I know that this is a bipartisan problem with bipartisan causes, but is it fair to say that it’s more bipartisan towards Bush and Trump, or is that just politics getting in the way of understanding this?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Yeah, no, it’s a good question. No, I think, and Scott is a great example of this, it’s important to both recognize the bipartisan nature of any problem, but also, when there are asymmetries, it’s important to recognize and point out those asymmetries without fear or favor.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Yeah, no, it’s a good question. No, I think, and Scott is a great example of this, it’s important to both recognize the bipartisan nature of any problem, but also, when there are asymmetries, it’s important to recognize and point out those asymmetries without fear or favor.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it’s absolutely true that Republican administrations — the Bush administration, George W. Bush — did two massive tax cuts tilted towards corporations and the rich. But there were also middle-class tax cuts in there and tax cuts that helped small businesses. And then Donald Trump in his first term, now in the second term, has also passed multi-, multi-trillion-dollar tax cuts that are tilted towards the rich and corporations.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And it’s absolutely true that Republican administrations — the Bush administration, George W. Bush — did two massive tax cuts tilted towards corporations and the rich. But there were also middle-class tax cuts in there and tax cuts that helped small businesses. And then Donald Trump in his first term, now in the second term, has also passed multi-, multi-trillion-dollar tax cuts that are tilted towards the rich and corporations.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, it’s also true that the Obama administration decided to extend the vast majority of the Bush tax cuts under pressure from its moderate wing and from the very powerful wing of its donor class. And that’s part of what makes it bipartisan.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now, it’s also true that the Obama administration decided to extend the vast majority of the Bush tax cuts under pressure from its moderate wing and from the very powerful wing of its donor class. And that’s part of what makes it bipartisan.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And also the Democrats under Joe Biden in 2021 had a chance to, if they wanted to, take their slim majority, but majority nonetheless, and roll back not just the Trump tax cuts, but also roll back some aspects of the Bush tax cuts from long ago. They declined to do that for many of the same reasons.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And also the Democrats under Joe Biden in 2021 had a chance to, if they wanted to, take their slim majority, but majority nonetheless, and roll back not just the Trump tax cuts, but also roll back some aspects of the Bush tax cuts from long ago. They declined to do that for many of the same reasons.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And you can make political judgments, partisan judgments, about whether those were good reasons or not. But that is, as you suggested, a whole other conversation. What’s important is to point out the mathematics of that. And the math is true that if you take away those four massive tax cuts since the turn of the millennium, we’d be in a very, very different fiscal situation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And you can make political judgments, partisan judgments, about whether those were good reasons or not. But that is, as you suggested, a whole other conversation. What’s important is to point out the mathematics of that. And the math is true that if you take away those four massive tax cuts since the turn of the millennium, we’d be in a very, very different fiscal situation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, again, without stepping on the toes of the rest of the conversation, there’s actually a very active debate in the bond market on Wall Street about how bad the fiscal situation is outside of the inflationary aspects that we’re dealing with right now, which may or may not be connected to the size of the deficit itself.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now, again, without stepping on the toes of the rest of the conversation, there’s actually a very active debate in the bond market on Wall Street about how bad the fiscal situation is outside of the inflationary aspects that we’re dealing with right now, which may or may not be connected to the size of the deficit itself.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But the core of your question is absolutely true, that our fiscal deterioration in terms of the mathematics comes from those four big sweeps of tax cuts, yes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But the core of your question is absolutely true, that our fiscal deterioration in terms of the mathematics comes from those four big sweeps of tax cuts, yes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Well, given that you brought it up, Talmon, I’m sorry to bring up a rival newsroom, but there’s this fabulous quote in yesterday’s Wall Street Journal about the effects on the markets of Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent’s plan to buy back more long-term bonds. The chief global strategist at JPMorgan Asset Management says, quote, “If the government says it’s going to raise taxes and cut spending to bring the deficit down, that’s one thing. Saying you found another credit card that you haven’t maxed out in your stack of 20 doesn’t actually inspire confidence,” fair?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Well, given that you brought it up, Talmon, I’m sorry to bring up a rival newsroom, but there’s this fabulous quote in yesterday’s Wall Street Journal about the effects on the markets of Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent’s plan to buy back more long-term bonds. The chief global strategist at JPMorgan Asset Management says, quote, “If the government says it’s going to raise taxes and cut spending to bring the deficit down, that’s one thing. Saying you found another credit card that you haven’t maxed out in your stack of 20 doesn’t actually inspire confidence,” fair?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Um, yeah. I believe that’s, uh — obviously, there are a lot of people high up at JPMorgan who have different titles. It sounds like that might be David Kelly at J.P. — very, very bright guy. Not only a markets guy, but a Ph.D. economist, and it’s no — it’s a good job. And far be it from me to cast too much doubt on anything that David Kelly has to say.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Um, yeah. I believe that’s, uh — obviously, there are a lot of people high up at JPMorgan who have different titles. It sounds like that might be David Kelly at J.P. — very, very bright guy. Not only a markets guy, but a Ph.D. economist, and it’s no — it’s a good job. And far be it from me to cast too much doubt on anything that David Kelly has to say.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Uh, but he also knows that, you know, the federal government doesn’t have credit cards like we do. The federal government has way, way more tools. The U.S. government also sells bonds in its own currency, it borrows in its own currency. The U.S. government can never actually go bankrupt. None of us have a money printer, and we can go on and on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Uh, but he also knows that, you know, the federal government doesn’t have credit cards like we do. The federal government has way, way more tools. The U.S. government also sells bonds in its own currency, it borrows in its own currency. The U.S. government can never actually go bankrupt. None of us have a money printer, and we can go on and on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But it is also true that whether it’s the Treasury or the Fed, the government does have limits, and for a bunch of very, very good reasons, we have a multigenerational tradition, not just in this country but around the globe, of market interest rates being set not just by central banks, but by investors and by households — you and I, people that have bonds in their IRAs or other investment portfolios — deciding, hey, which rate that is being offered on the market for this bond, for this fixed-income asset, is enough income over time right now, as I see it, so that I’ll be compensated for what I think inflation will be over the near term, over the medium term, and over the long term.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But it is also true that whether it’s the Treasury or the Fed, the government does have limits, and for a bunch of very, very good reasons, we have a multigenerational tradition, not just in this country but around the globe, of market interest rates being set not just by central banks, but by investors and by households — you and I, people that have bonds in their IRAs or other investment portfolios — deciding, hey, which rate that is being offered on the market for this bond, for this fixed-income asset, is enough income over time right now, as I see it, so that I’ll be compensated for what I think inflation will be over the near term, over the medium term, and over the long term.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And he’s absolutely right that there’s a lot of hocus-pocus that a Treasury secretary of the United States can do. He is a very, very powerful figure, the Treasury secretary. But ultimately, he’s going to be fighting against market fundamentals. And the Treasury secretary knows that well as a longtime practitioner of markets before he took up his current seat.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And he’s absolutely right that there’s a lot of hocus-pocus that a Treasury secretary of the United States can do. He is a very, very powerful figure, the Treasury secretary. But ultimately, he’s going to be fighting against market fundamentals. And the Treasury secretary knows that well as a longtime practitioner of markets before he took up his current seat.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>My final declaration is that, yes, it is a fair joke, though, like always, they’re—\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley:\u003c/strong> Scott, yeah. And one of the reasons the debt is getting more attention right now is because those market interest rates, those interest rates that investors are demanding in exchange for lending money to the federal government, have been going up.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley:\u003c/strong> Scott, yeah. And one of the reasons the debt is getting more attention right now is because those market interest rates, those interest rates that investors are demanding in exchange for lending money to the federal government, have been going up.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So we have a sort of double whammy where we owe more money than we used to, a lot more, and we’re having to pay a higher interest rate to keep bankrolling that $40 trillion in debt. And the combination of a very big principal and a rising interest rate means that our cash payouts now to those investors who are financing our deficits, our annual deficits, keep going up.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So we have a sort of double whammy where we owe more money than we used to, a lot more, and we’re having to pay a higher interest rate to keep bankrolling that $40 trillion in debt. And the combination of a very big principal and a rising interest rate means that our cash payouts now to those investors who are financing our deficits, our annual deficits, keep going up.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And in the current fiscal year, we’ve already spent more than a trillion dollars just paying interest on all that old debt. So that’s a trillion dollars we have to raise and spend before we can, you know, pay out the first Social Security check or the first Medicare bill or buy the first F-15, whatever else we want to do as a federal government and as a country. We’ve got to pay that trillion-dollar interest tab first.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And in the current fiscal year, we’ve already spent more than a trillion dollars just paying interest on all that old debt. So that’s a trillion dollars we have to raise and spend before we can, you know, pay out the first Social Security check or the first Medicare bill or buy the first F-15, whatever else we want to do as a federal government and as a country. We’ve got to pay that trillion-dollar interest tab first.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Scott, the word “investors” — it’s so gray, it’s so amorphous. Explain for us who the federal government owes all this money to: pension funds, foreign governments, retirees. It strikes me as a group with genuinely nothing in common except we owe them all money.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Scott, the word “investors” — it’s so gray, it’s so amorphous. Explain for us who the federal government owes all this money to: pension funds, foreign governments, retirees. It strikes me as a group with genuinely nothing in common except we owe them all money.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s right. It’s all of those folks, and that may include many of your listeners. You know, through their own retirement accounts, or if they’ve got a bond fund parked in a brokerage someplace, they may be, in effect, bankrolling the government. And they’re doing so because that’s been traditionally a safe place to park their money and to get a not spectacular but solid and certainly ironclad return.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s right. It’s all of those folks, and that may include many of your listeners. You know, through their own retirement accounts, or if they’ve got a bond fund parked in a brokerage someplace, they may be, in effect, bankrolling the government. And they’re doing so because that’s been traditionally a safe place to park their money and to get a not spectacular but solid and certainly ironclad return.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And those returns have been going up. Now, another reason they’re going up is for a long period of time — for most of the teens, for example — interest rates were super low because, as our colleagues at Planet Money said, there was this giant pool of money looking for a place to park, and one of the popular places to park was in U.S. government Treasuries. And so there was excess savings chasing that debt, and so the interest rates were really low for a really long time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And those returns have been going up. Now, another reason they’re going up is for a long period of time — for most of the teens, for example — interest rates were super low because, as our colleagues at Planet Money said, there was this giant pool of money looking for a place to park, and one of the popular places to park was in U.S. government Treasuries. And so there was excess savings chasing that debt, and so the interest rates were really low for a really long time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But that giant pool of money is not so giant anymore. Or at least there’s a whole lot more places to park it. One place to park now is all the money that big tech companies are borrowing to build these data centers. They’re borrowing vast sums of money, and that’s another way that those investors, those savers, can park their money.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But that giant pool of money is not so giant anymore. Or at least there’s a whole lot more places to park it. One place to park now is all the money that big tech companies are borrowing to build these data centers. They’re borrowing vast sums of money, and that’s another way that those investors, those savers, can park their money.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So the competition for that giant pool of savings is greater now, and that’s another reason that the interest rates have been rising.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So the competition for that giant pool of savings is greater now, and that’s another reason that the interest rates have been rising.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Talmon, there was a global bond sell-off Tuesday. In plain English, what happened?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Talmon, there was a global bond sell-off Tuesday. In plain English, what happened?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Right now — I shouldn’t even say right now. I’d say since spring, since the Iran war really kicked off between primarily Israel and the United States and Iran, though of course, as listeners of NPR know, the list of combatants has sort of spread and is sort of vacillating from month to month.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Right now — I shouldn’t even say right now. I’d say since spring, since the Iran war really kicked off between primarily Israel and the United States and Iran, though of course, as listeners of NPR know, the list of combatants has sort of spread and is sort of vacillating from month to month.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What that did is that spiked oil prices, and the prices of all sorts of ancillary products that have to deal with oil, that are petroleum-connected in some way. That’s inflationary. It also disrupted supply chains. That’s inflation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What that did is that spiked oil prices, and the prices of all sorts of ancillary products that have to deal with oil, that are petroleum-connected in some way. That’s inflationary. It also disrupted supply chains. That’s inflation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s also yet another signal of how globalization, which was, as Scott put in — you know, Scott mentioned the teens, the 2010s — globalization was thriving. The 2010s, it was thriving. It was thriving in the ’90s. It was thriving in the 2000s in general. We’ve seen that sort of a regime of globalization not only halt but reverse as we’ve seen either national economic priorities or global hostilities rise up.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It’s also yet another signal of how globalization, which was, as Scott put in — you know, Scott mentioned the teens, the 2010s — globalization was thriving. The 2010s, it was thriving. It was thriving in the ’90s. It was thriving in the 2000s in general. We’ve seen that sort of a regime of globalization not only halt but reverse as we’ve seen either national economic priorities or global hostilities rise up.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And one of the most immediate effects that you can expect from that, according to both, you know, academic economists and global bond portfolio managers, is you can expect interest rates to go up. And so that’s what we’ve seen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And one of the most immediate effects that you can expect from that, according to both, you know, academic economists and global bond portfolio managers, is you can expect interest rates to go up. And so that’s what we’ve seen.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I mean, we mentioned David Kelly at J.P. Morgan. Abby Yoder, who works at a different branch of J.P. Morgan, actually was interviewed this morning, and she mentioned, you know, her take on this, which is that we wouldn’t even be having this conversation, or at least we wouldn’t be having this level of worry about a global bond sell-off — or there might not even be a global bond sell-off — if this war were not going on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I mean, we mentioned David Kelly at J.P. Morgan. Abby Yoder, who works at a different branch of J.P. Morgan, actually was interviewed this morning, and she mentioned, you know, her take on this, which is that we wouldn’t even be having this conversation, or at least we wouldn’t be having this level of worry about a global bond sell-off — or there might not even be a global bond sell-off — if this war were not going on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, of course, counterfactuals are hard to prove because inherently you can’t deal with them. But I thought that was a good point. And, you know—\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Point to step into the break. We are talking about the U.S. national debt officially topping $40 trillion, a record high, double what it was a decade ago, raising some serious concerns for economists. I don’t know about the rest of us, but folks, we want to hear your comments and questions. What are you worried about most, your retirement accounts or your credit card debt or both?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Point to step into the break. We are talking about the U.S. national debt officially topping $40 trillion, a record high, double what it was a decade ago, raising some serious concerns for economists. I don’t know about the rest of us, but folks, we want to hear your comments and questions. What are you worried about most, your retirement accounts or your credit card debt or both?\u003c/p>\n"
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"excerpt": "We talk to economic experts about the current and future impacts, and whether there’s a solution.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Thursday, September 3, 2026 at 10am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At this week’s G20 summit in Asheville, N.C., global finance leaders met amid a bond sell-off that threatened to raise the cost of long-term borrowing and upend global economic stability. That comes as the US national debt officially topped $40 trillion — a record high that’s double what it was a decade ago, raising serious concerns for some economists. With the nation’s spiraling debt showing no signs of slowing, is it too late to avoid a U.S. fiscal cliff catastrophe? We talk to economic experts about the current and future impacts, and whether there’s a solution.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley,\u003c/strong> chief economics correspondent, NPR News\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Talmon Joseph Smith,\u003c/strong> economics reporter, The New York Times\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Maya MacGuineas,\u003c/strong> president, Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Rachel Myrow in for Mina Kim. Maybe you’ve seen the news headlines about our spiraling national debt and thought, there is not enough coffee in the world to get me to click on that. I can’t promise this Forum segment won’t hurt, but hear me out. It’s not the math that’s hard. It is the politics. Which is why we brought in three eminent brains, all of whom can translate the economics of a $40 trillion debt for us and the politics. Fear not, dear Forum listeners, you are in good hands. We’re here with Scott Horsley, chief economics correspondent at NPR. Scott, always a pleasure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley:\u003c/strong> Nice to be with you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> And we’ve also got Talmon Joseph Smith, economics reporter for the business section of the New York Times. Talmon, welcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Hey, it’s great to be here. I’m psyched.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Well, let’s get started. Scott, walk me through this like I’m a golden retriever. What is the difference between the debt and the deficit?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley:\u003c/strong> Well, the deficit is the difference between what the government collects every year in tax revenue and what it spends. Right now, it’s about $2 trillion a year more that we’re spending than we are collecting in tax revenues. And so, in order to close that gap, the government goes out and borrows money. And if you add up all the accumulated borrowing from the last 250 years, that’s the debt.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, it was about $20 trillion as recently as 2017, and it’s now doubled to $40 trillion as of last month.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Okay, Talmon, since 2000, we have cut taxes tilted towards corporations and high earners four times: the two Bush tax cuts, the 2017 Trump tax cuts in his first term, and additional tax cuts in Trump’s second term. I know that this is a bipartisan problem with bipartisan causes, but is it fair to say that it’s more bipartisan towards Bush and Trump, or is that just politics getting in the way of understanding this?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Yeah, no, it’s a good question. No, I think, and Scott is a great example of this, it’s important to both recognize the bipartisan nature of any problem, but also, when there are asymmetries, it’s important to recognize and point out those asymmetries without fear or favor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it’s absolutely true that Republican administrations — the Bush administration, George W. Bush — did two massive tax cuts tilted towards corporations and the rich. But there were also middle-class tax cuts in there and tax cuts that helped small businesses. And then Donald Trump in his first term, now in the second term, has also passed multi-, multi-trillion-dollar tax cuts that are tilted towards the rich and corporations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, it’s also true that the Obama administration decided to extend the vast majority of the Bush tax cuts under pressure from its moderate wing and from the very powerful wing of its donor class. And that’s part of what makes it bipartisan.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And also the Democrats under Joe Biden in 2021 had a chance to, if they wanted to, take their slim majority, but majority nonetheless, and roll back not just the Trump tax cuts, but also roll back some aspects of the Bush tax cuts from long ago. They declined to do that for many of the same reasons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you can make political judgments, partisan judgments, about whether those were good reasons or not. But that is, as you suggested, a whole other conversation. What’s important is to point out the mathematics of that. And the math is true that if you take away those four massive tax cuts since the turn of the millennium, we’d be in a very, very different fiscal situation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, again, without stepping on the toes of the rest of the conversation, there’s actually a very active debate in the bond market on Wall Street about how bad the fiscal situation is outside of the inflationary aspects that we’re dealing with right now, which may or may not be connected to the size of the deficit itself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the core of your question is absolutely true, that our fiscal deterioration in terms of the mathematics comes from those four big sweeps of tax cuts, yes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Well, given that you brought it up, Talmon, I’m sorry to bring up a rival newsroom, but there’s this fabulous quote in yesterday’s Wall Street Journal about the effects on the markets of Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent’s plan to buy back more long-term bonds. The chief global strategist at JPMorgan Asset Management says, quote, “If the government says it’s going to raise taxes and cut spending to bring the deficit down, that’s one thing. Saying you found another credit card that you haven’t maxed out in your stack of 20 doesn’t actually inspire confidence,” fair?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Um, yeah. I believe that’s, uh — obviously, there are a lot of people high up at JPMorgan who have different titles. It sounds like that might be David Kelly at J.P. — very, very bright guy. Not only a markets guy, but a Ph.D. economist, and it’s no — it’s a good job. And far be it from me to cast too much doubt on anything that David Kelly has to say.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Uh, but he also knows that, you know, the federal government doesn’t have credit cards like we do. The federal government has way, way more tools. The U.S. government also sells bonds in its own currency, it borrows in its own currency. The U.S. government can never actually go bankrupt. None of us have a money printer, and we can go on and on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But it is also true that whether it’s the Treasury or the Fed, the government does have limits, and for a bunch of very, very good reasons, we have a multigenerational tradition, not just in this country but around the globe, of market interest rates being set not just by central banks, but by investors and by households — you and I, people that have bonds in their IRAs or other investment portfolios — deciding, hey, which rate that is being offered on the market for this bond, for this fixed-income asset, is enough income over time right now, as I see it, so that I’ll be compensated for what I think inflation will be over the near term, over the medium term, and over the long term.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And he’s absolutely right that there’s a lot of hocus-pocus that a Treasury secretary of the United States can do. He is a very, very powerful figure, the Treasury secretary. But ultimately, he’s going to be fighting against market fundamentals. And the Treasury secretary knows that well as a longtime practitioner of markets before he took up his current seat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>My final declaration is that, yes, it is a fair joke, though, like always, they’re—\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley:\u003c/strong> Scott, yeah. And one of the reasons the debt is getting more attention right now is because those market interest rates, those interest rates that investors are demanding in exchange for lending money to the federal government, have been going up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So we have a sort of double whammy where we owe more money than we used to, a lot more, and we’re having to pay a higher interest rate to keep bankrolling that $40 trillion in debt. And the combination of a very big principal and a rising interest rate means that our cash payouts now to those investors who are financing our deficits, our annual deficits, keep going up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in the current fiscal year, we’ve already spent more than a trillion dollars just paying interest on all that old debt. So that’s a trillion dollars we have to raise and spend before we can, you know, pay out the first Social Security check or the first Medicare bill or buy the first F-15, whatever else we want to do as a federal government and as a country. We’ve got to pay that trillion-dollar interest tab first.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Scott, the word “investors” — it’s so gray, it’s so amorphous. Explain for us who the federal government owes all this money to: pension funds, foreign governments, retirees. It strikes me as a group with genuinely nothing in common except we owe them all money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Horsley:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s right. It’s all of those folks, and that may include many of your listeners. You know, through their own retirement accounts, or if they’ve got a bond fund parked in a brokerage someplace, they may be, in effect, bankrolling the government. And they’re doing so because that’s been traditionally a safe place to park their money and to get a not spectacular but solid and certainly ironclad return.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And those returns have been going up. Now, another reason they’re going up is for a long period of time — for most of the teens, for example — interest rates were super low because, as our colleagues at Planet Money said, there was this giant pool of money looking for a place to park, and one of the popular places to park was in U.S. government Treasuries. And so there was excess savings chasing that debt, and so the interest rates were really low for a really long time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But that giant pool of money is not so giant anymore. Or at least there’s a whole lot more places to park it. One place to park now is all the money that big tech companies are borrowing to build these data centers. They’re borrowing vast sums of money, and that’s another way that those investors, those savers, can park their money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So the competition for that giant pool of savings is greater now, and that’s another reason that the interest rates have been rising.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Talmon, there was a global bond sell-off Tuesday. In plain English, what happened?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Right now — I shouldn’t even say right now. I’d say since spring, since the Iran war really kicked off between primarily Israel and the United States and Iran, though of course, as listeners of NPR know, the list of combatants has sort of spread and is sort of vacillating from month to month.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What that did is that spiked oil prices, and the prices of all sorts of ancillary products that have to deal with oil, that are petroleum-connected in some way. That’s inflationary. It also disrupted supply chains. That’s inflation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s also yet another signal of how globalization, which was, as Scott put in — you know, Scott mentioned the teens, the 2010s — globalization was thriving. The 2010s, it was thriving. It was thriving in the ’90s. It was thriving in the 2000s in general. We’ve seen that sort of a regime of globalization not only halt but reverse as we’ve seen either national economic priorities or global hostilities rise up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And one of the most immediate effects that you can expect from that, according to both, you know, academic economists and global bond portfolio managers, is you can expect interest rates to go up. And so that’s what we’ve seen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, we mentioned David Kelly at J.P. Morgan. Abby Yoder, who works at a different branch of J.P. Morgan, actually was interviewed this morning, and she mentioned, you know, her take on this, which is that we wouldn’t even be having this conversation, or at least we wouldn’t be having this level of worry about a global bond sell-off — or there might not even be a global bond sell-off — if this war were not going on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, of course, counterfactuals are hard to prove because inherently you can’t deal with them. But I thought that was a good point. And, you know—\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Myrow:\u003c/strong> Point to step into the break. We are talking about the U.S. national debt officially topping $40 trillion, a record high, double what it was a decade ago, raising some serious concerns for economists. I don’t know about the rest of us, but folks, we want to hear your comments and questions. What are you worried about most, your retirement accounts or your credit card debt or both?\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Monday, Aug. 31 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Are you still wearing sunscreen? There’s been a recent wave of viral TikToks declaring that sunscreen is “toxic,” and they’ve helped ignite an anti-sunscreen movement. With recent surveys showing that millions of Americans are cutting back on sun protection, dermatologists worry that misinformation will lead to higher rates of skin cancer and melanoma. We look at what’s driving “sunscreen hesitancy,” dig into the social media claims and hear how health providers are pushing back against misinformation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood,\u003c/strong> beauty and grooming director of \u003cem>Men’s Health\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Women’s Health\u003c/em> and writer of \u003ca href=\"https://www.menshealth.com/health/a71867310/anti-sunscreen-movement/\">“The Anti-Sunscreen Movement Is Coming for You” \u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd,\u003c/strong> board-certified dermatologist and founder of DermFriends\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Some 16 million adults reported reducing or stopping sunscreen use, according to the American Academy of Dermatology’s 2026 Practice Safe Sun Survey, because of online claims about its safety. And a 2024 survey by the Orlando Health Cancer Institute found that one in seven adults under the age of 35 now believes that daily sunscreen use is more harmful to skin than direct sun exposure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This I learned from Brian Underwood’s piece in Men’s Health last month, called “The Anti-Sunscreen Movement Is Coming for You.” In this hour, we take a closer look at the growing influence of sunscreen opponents and what impact it’s had. Underwood is Beauty and Grooming Director of Men’s Health and Women’s Health and joins me now. Brian, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me, Mina.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also with us is Dr. Heather Woolery-Lloyd, board-certified dermatologist and founder of DermFriends. Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, really glad to have you with us too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Brian, let me start with you. Tell me about some of these claims on social media. What are influencers saying?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, a myriad of things, but I think that some of the researchers that looked into this have found that the number one thing that sort of anti-sunscreen creators are talking about is the toxicity of certain ingredients that they claim are in sunscreens. And this is mainly the organic filters, commonly known as chemical filters. And that is sort of the main driving argument that these creators have, is that these ingredients are somehow toxic. Some of them, you know, they claim are cancer-causing themselves. And, you know, among other things, I would say that is probably the most prevalent claim that they make on social media platforms.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And how colorful shall — I always say, hey, are some of these videos or messages getting —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, as somebody who did quite a deep dive into this topic for Men’s Health, I viewed quite a few of these videos. And obviously, you know, we’re talking about social media here. So you want to get and hold people’s attention. And the more outlandish you are in doing so, the more the algorithm is going to favor you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So you have people setting fire to spray sunscreens to create these sort of — almost look like makeshift torches from \u003cem>The Walking Dead\u003c/em> or something. But, of course, that’s really what it’s about. It’s about capturing people’s attention, and the way that these platforms prioritize that is by being as outlandish as possible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And from the stats I quoted, they are capturing people’s attention, right? These messages have been convincing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it appears that way. And that was sort of the genesis of this story. I was speaking to some of my friends at some major skin cancer nonprofits, and some of my other contacts at dermatology associations like the American Academy of Dermatology. And both of those organizations were taking sunscreen misinformation on social media platforms very seriously and have launched campaigns to combat some of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that’s when I realized, that’s what it became — something that I was just seeing on my feed. That’s when it transformed into something that I thought was a bigger story. If these organizations were taking this seriously, then perhaps I, as a journalist, should be taking it seriously. And that is kind of what led me to do this story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And which groups do you find that these messages seem to be having the most effect on right now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> You know, it’s hard to say, but anecdotally, from diving into this world, a lot of the creators were young men. And that’s kind of why we decided to run this story in Men’s Health. We know that men, I think it’s in the 80 percents, do not use sunscreen daily. And so we know that they are already primed for that message. And so that’s one of the reasons, as I said, that we decided to run this piece in, you know, in Men’s Health in particular.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, when you hear this, that these messages are having an impact, they’re having an impact among men in particular, and even Gen Z, I understand. You know, what goes through your mind? Does it concern you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, because, of course, we know that sunscreen is important to protect us against skin cancer and some of the effects of the sun. I treat a lot of patients with darker skin where sun is really responsible for hyperpigmentation when you’re treating pigmentary disorders. So it’s a really important tool for dermatologists, and it is concerning because it’s an unnecessary fear that we’re seeing on social media, and it’s really not based on a lot of data or science.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So what does the American Academy of Dermatologists sort of recommend when it comes to sunscreen use, or you as a doctor?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> So we recommend sunscreen, a minimum of SPF 30, ideally broad spectrum, which means UVA and UVB coverage, daily to exposed areas. And we use sunscreen for different reasons. One reason, as I mentioned, is to prevent skin cancer, especially in people who are at risk for skin cancer with lighter skin tones. And then with people with darker skin tones, we use sunscreen to help manage certain pigmentary disorders, like hyperpigmentation, uneven skin tone.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So it’s a really important tool for dermatologists, and I think it’s important that the public understands that this fear that we see online is not really based on any science.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So FDA-approved sunscreens, you would say, are safe?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the FDA has stated that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes. And so why, then, is there some power to the social media messages, Brian? Because I feel like, you know, I remember, for example, that, you know, there were concerns about oxybenzone or avobenzone, mainly that it can mess with your hormones or that it’s an endocrine disruptor and things like that. So there were things that the FDA, you know, was sort of suggesting in its messaging, there was science that was sort of suggesting — we were coming out of tests and so on. Can you just talk about where some of the believability for the messages of these influencers may have come from?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, you know, there is some data that shows that certain organic sunscreen filters do have some hormone-related effects. There was a research review, I believe in 2023, that looked at more than 200 studies and found some of that. I think, and that is the data that these anti-sunscreen creators are sort of latching onto.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I think what’s really important is that you give that data some context, and that’s what’s not happening on social media. So a lot of that data, the vast majority of that, was conducted in rodents and cell cultures and fish. And it is what Dr. Robert Nelson, who I also interviewed for this story, describes as low-relevance data. So it is really not data that you can extrapolate any conclusion from that would lead you to say that sunscreen is unsafe.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think at the same time, as you mentioned, in 2019, I believe it was, the FDA did a review of sunscreen ingredients and, you know, categorized them differently. So organic and, or chemical, sunscreen filters were Category 3, which means that the FDA was looking for more safety data because they did find that these ingredients were absorbed into the bloodstream at levels higher than what they would have liked to have seen. And I think that caused a lot of confusion.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, that 2019 study, it specifically states that the conclusion of the study should not lead anyone to not use sunscreen. So that’s very important to know. And there really is decades of data, safety data, on these ingredients from use overseas that I think the FDA is just a little sluggish to adopt as part of its monograph.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think that’s where the confusion came in, because if you’re a consumer and the FDA is telling you, “We need more safety data on these,” but they’re not pulling products from the shelf, I can see why you as a consumer or a creator would be confused by that. But I think it’s really important to understand that in its own conclusion, the FDA says, do not use this data to justify not using sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, how do you interpret what came out about oxybenzone? What do you tell your patients as well? And do you agree with what Brian is saying? The FDA and other doctors have told them, which is that this is not a reason to refrain from using sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, I totally agree with what Brian described so perfectly, which is that the information where a lot of this online interest comes from was this study that was done by the FDA. However, in that study, they concluded that — they stated that sunscreens were safe, including oxybenzone, and it shouldn’t stop people from wearing sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So in my practice, I absolutely recommend sunscreens to my patients. And I, you know, luckily in my practice, no one has really asked me so much about this. It might be more of a discussion online in certain groups of people, but it hasn’t trickled into people who I see every day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But that being said, I feel very comfortable and confident recommending sunscreens for my patients based on the data we have today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You know, the studies show that oxybenzone could be absorbed into the bloodstream. You’re saying does not mean conclusively that it causes harm?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Correct, because there’s no studies to suggest that. We have decades of research on sunscreens, like real-life human use of sunscreen, and not lab studies done on rodents and on other animals. And it is considered safe. And the FDA has stated that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So it sounds like you’re saying the greater risk really is avoiding sunscreen altogether than the ingredients that have been necessarily singled out. And then you’re talking about these other studies. What are these other studies showing in terms of effectiveness of sunscreen in preventing skin cancer?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> And actually, I just wanted to mention one other thing because we’re talking a lot about oxybenzone, but interestingly, oxybenzone is not now commonly used in sunscreen. So it used to be a very common sunscreen ingredient. It used to be seen probably in more than 90% of sunscreens, but now it’s actually less frequently used. So even though there’s a lot of discussion about it, it’s not commonly used anymore. So I did want to mention that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. An important point that, regardless of whether or not you are worried about it, probably in part because of the bad PR, regardless of the science, it is no longer in as many bottles of sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> That’s correct.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Dr. Heather Woolery-Lloyd, board-certified dermatologist, and Brian Underwood of Men’s Health, who’s written a piece called “The Anti-Sunscreen Movement Is Coming for You.” And you, our listeners, join the conversation at 866-733-6786, at the email address forum@kqed.org, or on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Do you wear sunscreen regularly, listeners? Why or why not? Have you noticed anti-sunscreen influencers in your feeds? You know, do they make you sunscreen-hesitant? Or are the messages concerning to you? Stay with us for more after the break. You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Are you still wearing sunscreen? There’s been a recent wave of viral TikToks declaring that sunscreen is “toxic,” and they’ve helped ignite an anti-sunscreen movement. With recent surveys showing that millions of Americans are cutting back on sun protection, dermatologists worry that misinformation will lead to higher rates of skin cancer and melanoma. We look at what’s driving “sunscreen hesitancy,” dig into the social media claims and hear how health providers are pushing back against misinformation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Are you still wearing sunscreen? There’s been a recent wave of viral TikToks declaring that sunscreen is “toxic,” and they’ve helped ignite an anti-sunscreen movement. With recent surveys showing that millions of Americans are cutting back on sun protection, dermatologists worry that misinformation will lead to higher rates of skin cancer and melanoma. We look at what’s driving “sunscreen hesitancy,” dig into the social media claims and hear how health providers are pushing back against misinformation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Some 16 million adults reported reducing or stopping sunscreen use, according to the American Academy of Dermatology’s 2026 Practice Safe Sun Survey, because of online claims about its safety. And a 2024 survey by the Orlando Health Cancer Institute found that one in seven adults under the age of 35 now believes that daily sunscreen use is more harmful to skin than direct sun exposure.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Some 16 million adults reported reducing or stopping sunscreen use, according to the American Academy of Dermatology’s 2026 Practice Safe Sun Survey, because of online claims about its safety. And a 2024 survey by the Orlando Health Cancer Institute found that one in seven adults under the age of 35 now believes that daily sunscreen use is more harmful to skin than direct sun exposure.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This I learned from Brian Underwood’s piece in Men’s Health last month, called “The Anti-Sunscreen Movement Is Coming for You.” In this hour, we take a closer look at the growing influence of sunscreen opponents and what impact it’s had. Underwood is Beauty and Grooming Director of Men’s Health and Women’s Health and joins me now. Brian, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This I learned from Brian Underwood’s piece in Men’s Health last month, called “The Anti-Sunscreen Movement Is Coming for You.” In this hour, we take a closer look at the growing influence of sunscreen opponents and what impact it’s had. Underwood is Beauty and Grooming Director of Men’s Health and Women’s Health and joins me now. Brian, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me, Mina.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me, Mina.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also with us is Dr. Heather Woolery-Lloyd, board-certified dermatologist and founder of DermFriends. Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, really glad to have you with us too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also with us is Dr. Heather Woolery-Lloyd, board-certified dermatologist and founder of DermFriends. Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, really glad to have you with us too.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Brian, let me start with you. Tell me about some of these claims on social media. What are influencers saying?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Brian, let me start with you. Tell me about some of these claims on social media. What are influencers saying?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, a myriad of things, but I think that some of the researchers that looked into this have found that the number one thing that sort of anti-sunscreen creators are talking about is the toxicity of certain ingredients that they claim are in sunscreens. And this is mainly the organic filters, commonly known as chemical filters. And that is sort of the main driving argument that these creators have, is that these ingredients are somehow toxic. Some of them, you know, they claim are cancer-causing themselves. And, you know, among other things, I would say that is probably the most prevalent claim that they make on social media platforms.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, a myriad of things, but I think that some of the researchers that looked into this have found that the number one thing that sort of anti-sunscreen creators are talking about is the toxicity of certain ingredients that they claim are in sunscreens. And this is mainly the organic filters, commonly known as chemical filters. And that is sort of the main driving argument that these creators have, is that these ingredients are somehow toxic. Some of them, you know, they claim are cancer-causing themselves. And, you know, among other things, I would say that is probably the most prevalent claim that they make on social media platforms.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And how colorful shall — I always say, hey, are some of these videos or messages getting —\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, as somebody who did quite a deep dive into this topic for Men’s Health, I viewed quite a few of these videos. And obviously, you know, we’re talking about social media here. So you want to get and hold people’s attention. And the more outlandish you are in doing so, the more the algorithm is going to favor you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So you have people setting fire to spray sunscreens to create these sort of — almost look like makeshift torches from \u003cem>The Walking Dead\u003c/em> or something. But, of course, that’s really what it’s about. It’s about capturing people’s attention, and the way that these platforms prioritize that is by being as outlandish as possible.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And from the stats I quoted, they are capturing people’s attention, right? These messages have been convincing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it appears that way. And that was sort of the genesis of this story. I was speaking to some of my friends at some major skin cancer nonprofits, and some of my other contacts at dermatology associations like the American Academy of Dermatology. And both of those organizations were taking sunscreen misinformation on social media platforms very seriously and have launched campaigns to combat some of it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it appears that way. And that was sort of the genesis of this story. I was speaking to some of my friends at some major skin cancer nonprofits, and some of my other contacts at dermatology associations like the American Academy of Dermatology. And both of those organizations were taking sunscreen misinformation on social media platforms very seriously and have launched campaigns to combat some of it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And that’s when I realized, that’s what it became — something that I was just seeing on my feed. That’s when it transformed into something that I thought was a bigger story. If these organizations were taking this seriously, then perhaps I, as a journalist, should be taking it seriously. And that is kind of what led me to do this story.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And that’s when I realized, that’s what it became — something that I was just seeing on my feed. That’s when it transformed into something that I thought was a bigger story. If these organizations were taking this seriously, then perhaps I, as a journalist, should be taking it seriously. And that is kind of what led me to do this story.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And which groups do you find that these messages seem to be having the most effect on right now?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And which groups do you find that these messages seem to be having the most effect on right now?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> You know, it’s hard to say, but anecdotally, from diving into this world, a lot of the creators were young men. And that’s kind of why we decided to run this story in Men’s Health. We know that men, I think it’s in the 80 percents, do not use sunscreen daily. And so we know that they are already primed for that message. And so that’s one of the reasons, as I said, that we decided to run this piece in, you know, in Men’s Health in particular.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> You know, it’s hard to say, but anecdotally, from diving into this world, a lot of the creators were young men. And that’s kind of why we decided to run this story in Men’s Health. We know that men, I think it’s in the 80 percents, do not use sunscreen daily. And so we know that they are already primed for that message. And so that’s one of the reasons, as I said, that we decided to run this piece in, you know, in Men’s Health in particular.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, when you hear this, that these messages are having an impact, they’re having an impact among men in particular, and even Gen Z, I understand. You know, what goes through your mind? Does it concern you?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, when you hear this, that these messages are having an impact, they’re having an impact among men in particular, and even Gen Z, I understand. You know, what goes through your mind? Does it concern you?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, because, of course, we know that sunscreen is important to protect us against skin cancer and some of the effects of the sun. I treat a lot of patients with darker skin where sun is really responsible for hyperpigmentation when you’re treating pigmentary disorders. So it’s a really important tool for dermatologists, and it is concerning because it’s an unnecessary fear that we’re seeing on social media, and it’s really not based on a lot of data or science.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, because, of course, we know that sunscreen is important to protect us against skin cancer and some of the effects of the sun. I treat a lot of patients with darker skin where sun is really responsible for hyperpigmentation when you’re treating pigmentary disorders. So it’s a really important tool for dermatologists, and it is concerning because it’s an unnecessary fear that we’re seeing on social media, and it’s really not based on a lot of data or science.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So what does the American Academy of Dermatologists sort of recommend when it comes to sunscreen use, or you as a doctor?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So what does the American Academy of Dermatologists sort of recommend when it comes to sunscreen use, or you as a doctor?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> So we recommend sunscreen, a minimum of SPF 30, ideally broad spectrum, which means UVA and UVB coverage, daily to exposed areas. And we use sunscreen for different reasons. One reason, as I mentioned, is to prevent skin cancer, especially in people who are at risk for skin cancer with lighter skin tones. And then with people with darker skin tones, we use sunscreen to help manage certain pigmentary disorders, like hyperpigmentation, uneven skin tone.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> So we recommend sunscreen, a minimum of SPF 30, ideally broad spectrum, which means UVA and UVB coverage, daily to exposed areas. And we use sunscreen for different reasons. One reason, as I mentioned, is to prevent skin cancer, especially in people who are at risk for skin cancer with lighter skin tones. And then with people with darker skin tones, we use sunscreen to help manage certain pigmentary disorders, like hyperpigmentation, uneven skin tone.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So it’s a really important tool for dermatologists, and I think it’s important that the public understands that this fear that we see online is not really based on any science.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So it’s a really important tool for dermatologists, and I think it’s important that the public understands that this fear that we see online is not really based on any science.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So FDA-approved sunscreens, you would say, are safe?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So FDA-approved sunscreens, you would say, are safe?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the FDA has stated that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the FDA has stated that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes. And so why, then, is there some power to the social media messages, Brian? Because I feel like, you know, I remember, for example, that, you know, there were concerns about oxybenzone or avobenzone, mainly that it can mess with your hormones or that it’s an endocrine disruptor and things like that. So there were things that the FDA, you know, was sort of suggesting in its messaging, there was science that was sort of suggesting — we were coming out of tests and so on. Can you just talk about where some of the believability for the messages of these influencers may have come from?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes. And so why, then, is there some power to the social media messages, Brian? Because I feel like, you know, I remember, for example, that, you know, there were concerns about oxybenzone or avobenzone, mainly that it can mess with your hormones or that it’s an endocrine disruptor and things like that. So there were things that the FDA, you know, was sort of suggesting in its messaging, there was science that was sort of suggesting — we were coming out of tests and so on. Can you just talk about where some of the believability for the messages of these influencers may have come from?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, you know, there is some data that shows that certain organic sunscreen filters do have some hormone-related effects. There was a research review, I believe in 2023, that looked at more than 200 studies and found some of that. I think, and that is the data that these anti-sunscreen creators are sort of latching onto.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, you know, there is some data that shows that certain organic sunscreen filters do have some hormone-related effects. There was a research review, I believe in 2023, that looked at more than 200 studies and found some of that. I think, and that is the data that these anti-sunscreen creators are sort of latching onto.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I think what’s really important is that you give that data some context, and that’s what’s not happening on social media. So a lot of that data, the vast majority of that, was conducted in rodents and cell cultures and fish. And it is what Dr. Robert Nelson, who I also interviewed for this story, describes as low-relevance data. So it is really not data that you can extrapolate any conclusion from that would lead you to say that sunscreen is unsafe.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I think what’s really important is that you give that data some context, and that’s what’s not happening on social media. So a lot of that data, the vast majority of that, was conducted in rodents and cell cultures and fish. And it is what Dr. Robert Nelson, who I also interviewed for this story, describes as low-relevance data. So it is really not data that you can extrapolate any conclusion from that would lead you to say that sunscreen is unsafe.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think at the same time, as you mentioned, in 2019, I believe it was, the FDA did a review of sunscreen ingredients and, you know, categorized them differently. So organic and, or chemical, sunscreen filters were Category 3, which means that the FDA was looking for more safety data because they did find that these ingredients were absorbed into the bloodstream at levels higher than what they would have liked to have seen. And I think that caused a lot of confusion.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think at the same time, as you mentioned, in 2019, I believe it was, the FDA did a review of sunscreen ingredients and, you know, categorized them differently. So organic and, or chemical, sunscreen filters were Category 3, which means that the FDA was looking for more safety data because they did find that these ingredients were absorbed into the bloodstream at levels higher than what they would have liked to have seen. And I think that caused a lot of confusion.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, that 2019 study, it specifically states that the conclusion of the study should not lead anyone to not use sunscreen. So that’s very important to know. And there really is decades of data, safety data, on these ingredients from use overseas that I think the FDA is just a little sluggish to adopt as part of its monograph.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now, that 2019 study, it specifically states that the conclusion of the study should not lead anyone to not use sunscreen. So that’s very important to know. And there really is decades of data, safety data, on these ingredients from use overseas that I think the FDA is just a little sluggish to adopt as part of its monograph.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think that’s where the confusion came in, because if you’re a consumer and the FDA is telling you, “We need more safety data on these,” but they’re not pulling products from the shelf, I can see why you as a consumer or a creator would be confused by that. But I think it’s really important to understand that in its own conclusion, the FDA says, do not use this data to justify not using sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think that’s where the confusion came in, because if you’re a consumer and the FDA is telling you, “We need more safety data on these,” but they’re not pulling products from the shelf, I can see why you as a consumer or a creator would be confused by that. But I think it’s really important to understand that in its own conclusion, the FDA says, do not use this data to justify not using sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, how do you interpret what came out about oxybenzone? What do you tell your patients as well? And do you agree with what Brian is saying? The FDA and other doctors have told them, which is that this is not a reason to refrain from using sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, how do you interpret what came out about oxybenzone? What do you tell your patients as well? And do you agree with what Brian is saying? The FDA and other doctors have told them, which is that this is not a reason to refrain from using sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, I totally agree with what Brian described so perfectly, which is that the information where a lot of this online interest comes from was this study that was done by the FDA. However, in that study, they concluded that — they stated that sunscreens were safe, including oxybenzone, and it shouldn’t stop people from wearing sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, I totally agree with what Brian described so perfectly, which is that the information where a lot of this online interest comes from was this study that was done by the FDA. However, in that study, they concluded that — they stated that sunscreens were safe, including oxybenzone, and it shouldn’t stop people from wearing sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So in my practice, I absolutely recommend sunscreens to my patients. And I, you know, luckily in my practice, no one has really asked me so much about this. It might be more of a discussion online in certain groups of people, but it hasn’t trickled into people who I see every day.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So in my practice, I absolutely recommend sunscreens to my patients. And I, you know, luckily in my practice, no one has really asked me so much about this. It might be more of a discussion online in certain groups of people, but it hasn’t trickled into people who I see every day.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But that being said, I feel very comfortable and confident recommending sunscreens for my patients based on the data we have today.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But that being said, I feel very comfortable and confident recommending sunscreens for my patients based on the data we have today.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You know, the studies show that oxybenzone could be absorbed into the bloodstream. You’re saying does not mean conclusively that it causes harm?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You know, the studies show that oxybenzone could be absorbed into the bloodstream. You’re saying does not mean conclusively that it causes harm?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Correct, because there’s no studies to suggest that. We have decades of research on sunscreens, like real-life human use of sunscreen, and not lab studies done on rodents and on other animals. And it is considered safe. And the FDA has stated that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Correct, because there’s no studies to suggest that. We have decades of research on sunscreens, like real-life human use of sunscreen, and not lab studies done on rodents and on other animals. And it is considered safe. And the FDA has stated that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So it sounds like you’re saying the greater risk really is avoiding sunscreen altogether than the ingredients that have been necessarily singled out. And then you’re talking about these other studies. What are these other studies showing in terms of effectiveness of sunscreen in preventing skin cancer?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So it sounds like you’re saying the greater risk really is avoiding sunscreen altogether than the ingredients that have been necessarily singled out. And then you’re talking about these other studies. What are these other studies showing in terms of effectiveness of sunscreen in preventing skin cancer?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> And actually, I just wanted to mention one other thing because we’re talking a lot about oxybenzone, but interestingly, oxybenzone is not now commonly used in sunscreen. So it used to be a very common sunscreen ingredient. It used to be seen probably in more than 90% of sunscreens, but now it’s actually less frequently used. So even though there’s a lot of discussion about it, it’s not commonly used anymore. So I did want to mention that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> And actually, I just wanted to mention one other thing because we’re talking a lot about oxybenzone, but interestingly, oxybenzone is not now commonly used in sunscreen. So it used to be a very common sunscreen ingredient. It used to be seen probably in more than 90% of sunscreens, but now it’s actually less frequently used. So even though there’s a lot of discussion about it, it’s not commonly used anymore. So I did want to mention that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. An important point that, regardless of whether or not you are worried about it, probably in part because of the bad PR, regardless of the science, it is no longer in as many bottles of sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. An important point that, regardless of whether or not you are worried about it, probably in part because of the bad PR, regardless of the science, it is no longer in as many bottles of sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> That’s correct.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Dr. Heather Woolery-Lloyd, board-certified dermatologist, and Brian Underwood of Men’s Health, who’s written a piece called “The Anti-Sunscreen Movement Is Coming for You.” And you, our listeners, join the conversation at 866-733-6786, at the email address forum@kqed.org, or on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Dr. Heather Woolery-Lloyd, board-certified dermatologist, and Brian Underwood of Men’s Health, who’s written a piece called “The Anti-Sunscreen Movement Is Coming for You.” And you, our listeners, join the conversation at 866-733-6786, at the email address forum@kqed.org, or on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Do you wear sunscreen regularly, listeners? Why or why not? Have you noticed anti-sunscreen influencers in your feeds? You know, do they make you sunscreen-hesitant? Or are the messages concerning to you? Stay with us for more after the break. You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Do you wear sunscreen regularly, listeners? Why or why not? Have you noticed anti-sunscreen influencers in your feeds? You know, do they make you sunscreen-hesitant? Or are the messages concerning to you? Stay with us for more after the break. You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Monday, Aug. 31 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Are you still wearing sunscreen? There’s been a recent wave of viral TikToks declaring that sunscreen is “toxic,” and they’ve helped ignite an anti-sunscreen movement. With recent surveys showing that millions of Americans are cutting back on sun protection, dermatologists worry that misinformation will lead to higher rates of skin cancer and melanoma. We look at what’s driving “sunscreen hesitancy,” dig into the social media claims and hear how health providers are pushing back against misinformation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood,\u003c/strong> beauty and grooming director of \u003cem>Men’s Health\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Women’s Health\u003c/em> and writer of \u003ca href=\"https://www.menshealth.com/health/a71867310/anti-sunscreen-movement/\">“The Anti-Sunscreen Movement Is Coming for You” \u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd,\u003c/strong> board-certified dermatologist and founder of DermFriends\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. Some 16 million adults reported reducing or stopping sunscreen use, according to the American Academy of Dermatology’s 2026 Practice Safe Sun Survey, because of online claims about its safety. And a 2024 survey by the Orlando Health Cancer Institute found that one in seven adults under the age of 35 now believes that daily sunscreen use is more harmful to skin than direct sun exposure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This I learned from Brian Underwood’s piece in Men’s Health last month, called “The Anti-Sunscreen Movement Is Coming for You.” In this hour, we take a closer look at the growing influence of sunscreen opponents and what impact it’s had. Underwood is Beauty and Grooming Director of Men’s Health and Women’s Health and joins me now. Brian, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me, Mina.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also with us is Dr. Heather Woolery-Lloyd, board-certified dermatologist and founder of DermFriends. Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, really glad to have you with us too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Brian, let me start with you. Tell me about some of these claims on social media. What are influencers saying?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, a myriad of things, but I think that some of the researchers that looked into this have found that the number one thing that sort of anti-sunscreen creators are talking about is the toxicity of certain ingredients that they claim are in sunscreens. And this is mainly the organic filters, commonly known as chemical filters. And that is sort of the main driving argument that these creators have, is that these ingredients are somehow toxic. Some of them, you know, they claim are cancer-causing themselves. And, you know, among other things, I would say that is probably the most prevalent claim that they make on social media platforms.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And how colorful shall — I always say, hey, are some of these videos or messages getting —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, as somebody who did quite a deep dive into this topic for Men’s Health, I viewed quite a few of these videos. And obviously, you know, we’re talking about social media here. So you want to get and hold people’s attention. And the more outlandish you are in doing so, the more the algorithm is going to favor you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So you have people setting fire to spray sunscreens to create these sort of — almost look like makeshift torches from \u003cem>The Walking Dead\u003c/em> or something. But, of course, that’s really what it’s about. It’s about capturing people’s attention, and the way that these platforms prioritize that is by being as outlandish as possible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And from the stats I quoted, they are capturing people’s attention, right? These messages have been convincing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it appears that way. And that was sort of the genesis of this story. I was speaking to some of my friends at some major skin cancer nonprofits, and some of my other contacts at dermatology associations like the American Academy of Dermatology. And both of those organizations were taking sunscreen misinformation on social media platforms very seriously and have launched campaigns to combat some of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And that’s when I realized, that’s what it became — something that I was just seeing on my feed. That’s when it transformed into something that I thought was a bigger story. If these organizations were taking this seriously, then perhaps I, as a journalist, should be taking it seriously. And that is kind of what led me to do this story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And which groups do you find that these messages seem to be having the most effect on right now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> You know, it’s hard to say, but anecdotally, from diving into this world, a lot of the creators were young men. And that’s kind of why we decided to run this story in Men’s Health. We know that men, I think it’s in the 80 percents, do not use sunscreen daily. And so we know that they are already primed for that message. And so that’s one of the reasons, as I said, that we decided to run this piece in, you know, in Men’s Health in particular.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, when you hear this, that these messages are having an impact, they’re having an impact among men in particular, and even Gen Z, I understand. You know, what goes through your mind? Does it concern you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, because, of course, we know that sunscreen is important to protect us against skin cancer and some of the effects of the sun. I treat a lot of patients with darker skin where sun is really responsible for hyperpigmentation when you’re treating pigmentary disorders. So it’s a really important tool for dermatologists, and it is concerning because it’s an unnecessary fear that we’re seeing on social media, and it’s really not based on a lot of data or science.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So what does the American Academy of Dermatologists sort of recommend when it comes to sunscreen use, or you as a doctor?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> So we recommend sunscreen, a minimum of SPF 30, ideally broad spectrum, which means UVA and UVB coverage, daily to exposed areas. And we use sunscreen for different reasons. One reason, as I mentioned, is to prevent skin cancer, especially in people who are at risk for skin cancer with lighter skin tones. And then with people with darker skin tones, we use sunscreen to help manage certain pigmentary disorders, like hyperpigmentation, uneven skin tone.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So it’s a really important tool for dermatologists, and I think it’s important that the public understands that this fear that we see online is not really based on any science.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So FDA-approved sunscreens, you would say, are safe?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the FDA has stated that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes. And so why, then, is there some power to the social media messages, Brian? Because I feel like, you know, I remember, for example, that, you know, there were concerns about oxybenzone or avobenzone, mainly that it can mess with your hormones or that it’s an endocrine disruptor and things like that. So there were things that the FDA, you know, was sort of suggesting in its messaging, there was science that was sort of suggesting — we were coming out of tests and so on. Can you just talk about where some of the believability for the messages of these influencers may have come from?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Underwood:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, you know, there is some data that shows that certain organic sunscreen filters do have some hormone-related effects. There was a research review, I believe in 2023, that looked at more than 200 studies and found some of that. I think, and that is the data that these anti-sunscreen creators are sort of latching onto.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I think what’s really important is that you give that data some context, and that’s what’s not happening on social media. So a lot of that data, the vast majority of that, was conducted in rodents and cell cultures and fish. And it is what Dr. Robert Nelson, who I also interviewed for this story, describes as low-relevance data. So it is really not data that you can extrapolate any conclusion from that would lead you to say that sunscreen is unsafe.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think at the same time, as you mentioned, in 2019, I believe it was, the FDA did a review of sunscreen ingredients and, you know, categorized them differently. So organic and, or chemical, sunscreen filters were Category 3, which means that the FDA was looking for more safety data because they did find that these ingredients were absorbed into the bloodstream at levels higher than what they would have liked to have seen. And I think that caused a lot of confusion.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, that 2019 study, it specifically states that the conclusion of the study should not lead anyone to not use sunscreen. So that’s very important to know. And there really is decades of data, safety data, on these ingredients from use overseas that I think the FDA is just a little sluggish to adopt as part of its monograph.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think that’s where the confusion came in, because if you’re a consumer and the FDA is telling you, “We need more safety data on these,” but they’re not pulling products from the shelf, I can see why you as a consumer or a creator would be confused by that. But I think it’s really important to understand that in its own conclusion, the FDA says, do not use this data to justify not using sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Dr. Woolery-Lloyd, how do you interpret what came out about oxybenzone? What do you tell your patients as well? And do you agree with what Brian is saying? The FDA and other doctors have told them, which is that this is not a reason to refrain from using sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Yes, I totally agree with what Brian described so perfectly, which is that the information where a lot of this online interest comes from was this study that was done by the FDA. However, in that study, they concluded that — they stated that sunscreens were safe, including oxybenzone, and it shouldn’t stop people from wearing sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So in my practice, I absolutely recommend sunscreens to my patients. And I, you know, luckily in my practice, no one has really asked me so much about this. It might be more of a discussion online in certain groups of people, but it hasn’t trickled into people who I see every day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But that being said, I feel very comfortable and confident recommending sunscreens for my patients based on the data we have today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You know, the studies show that oxybenzone could be absorbed into the bloodstream. You’re saying does not mean conclusively that it causes harm?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> Correct, because there’s no studies to suggest that. We have decades of research on sunscreens, like real-life human use of sunscreen, and not lab studies done on rodents and on other animals. And it is considered safe. And the FDA has stated that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So it sounds like you’re saying the greater risk really is avoiding sunscreen altogether than the ingredients that have been necessarily singled out. And then you’re talking about these other studies. What are these other studies showing in terms of effectiveness of sunscreen in preventing skin cancer?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> And actually, I just wanted to mention one other thing because we’re talking a lot about oxybenzone, but interestingly, oxybenzone is not now commonly used in sunscreen. So it used to be a very common sunscreen ingredient. It used to be seen probably in more than 90% of sunscreens, but now it’s actually less frequently used. So even though there’s a lot of discussion about it, it’s not commonly used anymore. So I did want to mention that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. An important point that, regardless of whether or not you are worried about it, probably in part because of the bad PR, regardless of the science, it is no longer in as many bottles of sunscreen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Heather Woolery-Lloyd:\u003c/strong> That’s correct.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Dr. Heather Woolery-Lloyd, board-certified dermatologist, and Brian Underwood of Men’s Health, who’s written a piece called “The Anti-Sunscreen Movement Is Coming for You.” And you, our listeners, join the conversation at 866-733-6786, at the email address forum@kqed.org, or on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Do you wear sunscreen regularly, listeners? Why or why not? Have you noticed anti-sunscreen influencers in your feeds? You know, do they make you sunscreen-hesitant? Or are the messages concerning to you? Stay with us for more after the break. You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Wednesday, August 26, 2026 at 10 am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A uniquely and universally beloved musician and philanthropist, Dolly Parton died Tuesday at 80. One of country music’s most celebrated performers, her signature songs including “Jolene” and “I Will Always Love You” resonated across generations. We talk to Parton biographers about the singer’s life and legacy, and what made her such a distinct American icon. What did Dolly Parton mean to you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann,\u003c/strong> author, \u003cem>Dolly Parton, Songteller: My Life in Lyrics\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Lydia Hamessley\u003c/strong>, professor of music at Hamilton College; author, \u003cem>Unlikely Angel: The Songs of Dolly Parton\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Dolly Parton’s Jolene\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jacob Stensberg\u003c/strong>, artistic director & conductor, San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. The Times headline announcing Dolly Parton’s death called her simply “superstar” because she was more than a chart-topping country music singer, movie star, entrepreneur and philanthropist. Dolly Parton was a legend. And from San Francisco’s Castro to the halls of D.C., she made people of different genders, races and political affiliations feel embraced.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Dolly Parton would say, and did more than once on NPR and public media, that she was mainly a songwriter. Here she is with Kermit the Frog in 1987.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dolly Parton:\u003c/strong> Folks sometimes forget that we’re just everyday people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kermit the Frog:\u003c/strong> Yeah, yeah. You want to talk about it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dolly Parton:\u003c/strong> Not really.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kermit the Frog:\u003c/strong> You wanna sing about it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dolly Parton:\u003c/strong> Well, I’d love to, Kermit, but I have a frog in my throat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Dolly Parton’s death at the age of 80 was announced yesterday, and listeners tell us: What did Dolly Parton mean to you? The number is 866-733-6786. The email address is \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, and you can find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram. We’re at KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Joining me this hour, Robert K. Oermann, author of \u003cem>Dolly Parton, Songteller: My Life in Lyrics\u003c/em>. Robert, really glad to have you with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Good to be here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Lydia Hamessley is also with us, professor of music at Hamilton College and author of \u003cem>Unlikely Angel: The Songs of Dolly Parton\u003c/em>. Lydia, really appreciate you being with us, too. Thank you very much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Jacob Stensberg, artistic director and conductor of the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus. Jacob, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. Thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, Robert, you wrote, as I mentioned, \u003cem>Songteller\u003c/em>. Tell me, what was your reaction to receiving news of her death?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> Oh, God, it was the worst day of my life. Several people called and asked me, “Was it a hoax?” You know, because there’s so much misinformation out there, and nobody wants to believe that there’s a world without Dolly Parton in it, including me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it was devastating, but I didn’t have time to think. CNN called and all, you know, NBC and ABC and CBS. I mean, just had a — I never had time to grieve. I never had time to cry, and I still want to cry. I still haven’t had time. I have never wept over a celebrity’s death before, but this one is the worst.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, I so appreciate you being here to share that, given what you just shared. And also, just the point that you made that nobody wants to imagine a world without Dolly Parton. Why is that, do you think, Robert?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> The one thing that they left out in their introduction about her, you know, philanthropist and musician, star and movie star — how about best dang human being ever? She touched people in profound ways with her life and her music. Yes, a luminous superstar, a great music talent, but above that, a great humanitarian and a person who gave empathy to the world. She gave compassion and understanding and love. And that is the legacy. We should all carry that forward.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Lydia, you know, similar question that we’re asking Robert and also our audience, but what did Dolly Parton mean to you? You wrote so deeply about her songs, her lyrics.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Hamessley:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Well, I had a similar experience as Robert did with assuming it was a hoax, but what she meant to me was just — it was even hard to describe.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, I titled my book \u003cem>Unlikely Angel\u003c/em>, partly because people think of her as an angel a lot. She often played angels. She wrote a song called “Unlikely Angels.” But to me, in my life, she was also an unlikely angel. I hadn’t expected to fall in love with her in the way that I did.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And just so much joy in her music and modeling of what it might be to be a good human being in the world with, as Robert said, the kindness and empathy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And as he said, I had just sat down to dinner. I’m in Germany right now, so it was evening, 8:30 p.m. I just sat down, had my phone out to kill time before my food came, and there it was. And I thought, “No, no, that can’t be right.” And I started texting my friends back in the States. And then someone posted immediately the New York Times obituary. And I just choked up and started blubbering. And I thought, “I’m a woman alone at a table in Germany. I don’t really think I should just be crying here. That might look weird,” you know? So I just kept breathing and I ate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then, like Robert, I got back to my room and couldn’t cry because I had my phone blew up, this thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And actually, we’re going to see, Lydia, if we can get you on a slightly better line because your phone being in Germany is making a bit of a clicking sound, but we’ll see if we can try to figure that out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the meantime, Jacob, the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus just did a tribute concert to Dolly in June. Talk about why — why Dolly Parton in particular, what she means to you and the chorus.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacob Stensberg:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Yeah, last Pride, Dolly was our muse for the entire Pride season here in San Francisco in the Bay Area, and I was so eager to program a concert completely from her songbook and songwriting, because I discovered that much of our membership, especially the younger generations, knew more about Dolly’s activism and sort of her ethos and the way she made them feel, but didn’t necessarily know all of her incredible music.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so it was amazing to watch singers take some of her songs, which were incredibly autobiographical, and find so much identity and connection with them, feeling like they were singing about their own experiences and not necessarily just hers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, your lineup included “Travelin’ Thru” and “Coat of Many Colors,” as I understand it. Talk about those songs in particular. “Coat of Many Colors,” in particular, has been described as a queer anthem by some. What makes those songs particularly meaningful, Jacob?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacob Stensberg:\u003c/strong> You know, she has a way of writing these incredible lyrics that can be both hyper-specific to a moment in time, but also universal. And both of those songs that maybe are about, in a really broad sense, going from dark to light or hardship to the other side of that catharsis or healing — especially in a time when all communities, but especially the queer community, is seeking catharsis, healing and joy — singing about those experiences that are both honest but have kind of a happy ending, I think mean a lot to us right now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That was “Coat of Many Colors.” We’re talking right now with Jacob Stensberg, artistic director and conductor of the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus; Lydia Hamessley, a professor of music at Hamilton College who wrote \u003cem>Unlikely Angel: The Songs of Dolly Parton\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Dolly Parton’s Jolene\u003c/em>; and Robert K. Oermann, co-author with Dolly Parton of \u003cem>Songteller: My Life in Lyrics\u003c/em>. And you, our listeners, are joining the conversation with your reflections and memories.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Corey writes, “I’m a columnist at the Sydney Morning Herald and just published a piece about her. My argument in the piece is that Dolly built a congregation around the idea of American individualism done right. She was completely herself and carefully avoided defining anyone else, but gave them permission to be whoever they could be. In doing that, she created one of the last places in American life where people could be different together.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Robert, I’m so struck by the choice of the word “Songteller” to describe Dolly Parton for your book. Why “Songteller” as opposed to, say, “songwriter”?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> First of all, I’m not the author. I am the co-author. Dolly and I wrote that together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That’s right, you co-wrote it together, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> We spent days and days together working on that book, and it was Dolly’s idea to call it \u003cem>Songteller\u003c/em>. It was completely her idea. I had mentioned to her that Tom T. Hall was a big, huge country music influence on me, and that he was called the storyteller, and he was a great songwriter as well. She thought, “If he’s the storyteller, then I’m the Songteller.” And she’s also named her downtown Nashville hotel the Songteller Hotel. And it will open this fall, sadly without her.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes. What were the types of stories, Lydia, that Dolly would like to tell through her songs that you noticed by looking so deeply at them?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Hamessley:\u003c/strong> Well, there are several kind of categories. One of them is the uplifting, very much hope and joy and optimism. So there are many of those kinds of songs where she really thinks there’s one better [world] to get to live in, you know, and don’t complain. Like, if you want things to be different, do it, make it different.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So she has a lot of those, but then she can go the other way and write songs that she would have called “sad-ass songs,” and those are the ones that are the dead-baby songs, you know. I think of one called “Evening Shade,” which is just a horror of orphans being mistreated, and they all band together and burn down the orphanage with the evil matron in it. And her last line in that is, “Evening Shade was burning just like the—” It was, you know.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So she could go from the sublime to the morose to everything in between, and yet in each of those categories you can find 10, 20, 30 songs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So she has these kind of tropes that she kept revisiting, and in fact, in the book I had to try to figure out, how am I going to talk about all these songs? I can’t do it chronologically. That seemed haphazard. I did it by topic because she revisits these things over the course of a career.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So she might have a song about the dead babies in the ’70s and then another in the ’90s and another, you know, a couple years later. So she’s got these kind of clumps of, for want of a better word, of ideas.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And one thing that she said, especially, I think, about the really sad songs, is that she can tell stories for other people who can’t tell their own stories.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And she really took that role very seriously, didn’t she?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Hamessley:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. She felt that that could empower people who didn’t have a voice or, as she said, the gift of rhyme or being able to write a song.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re remembering Dolly Parton this hour with Lydia Hamessley, professor of music at Hamilton College; Robert K. Oermann, co-author with Dolly Parton of \u003cem>Songteller\u003c/em>; and Jacob Stensberg of the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus, and with you, our listeners. Stay with us. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. The Times headline announcing Dolly Parton’s death called her simply “superstar” because she was more than a chart-topping country music singer, movie star, entrepreneur and philanthropist. Dolly Parton was a legend. And from San Francisco’s Castro to the halls of D.C., she made people of different genders, races and political affiliations feel embraced.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. The Times headline announcing Dolly Parton’s death called her simply “superstar” because she was more than a chart-topping country music singer, movie star, entrepreneur and philanthropist. Dolly Parton was a legend. And from San Francisco’s Castro to the halls of D.C., she made people of different genders, races and political affiliations feel embraced.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Dolly Parton would say, and did more than once on NPR and public media, that she was mainly a songwriter. Here she is with Kermit the Frog in 1987.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Dolly Parton would say, and did more than once on NPR and public media, that she was mainly a songwriter. Here she is with Kermit the Frog in 1987.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dolly Parton:\u003c/strong> Folks sometimes forget that we’re just everyday people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kermit the Frog:\u003c/strong> Yeah, yeah. You want to talk about it?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dolly Parton:\u003c/strong> Not really.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kermit the Frog:\u003c/strong> You wanna sing about it?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dolly Parton:\u003c/strong> Well, I’d love to, Kermit, but I have a frog in my throat.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Dolly Parton’s death at the age of 80 was announced yesterday, and listeners tell us: What did Dolly Parton mean to you? The number is 866-733-6786. The email address is \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, and you can find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram. We’re at KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Dolly Parton’s death at the age of 80 was announced yesterday, and listeners tell us: What did Dolly Parton mean to you? The number is 866-733-6786. The email address is \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, and you can find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram. We’re at KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Joining me this hour, Robert K. Oermann, author of \u003cem>Dolly Parton, Songteller: My Life in Lyrics\u003c/em>. Robert, really glad to have you with us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Joining me this hour, Robert K. Oermann, author of \u003cem>Dolly Parton, Songteller: My Life in Lyrics\u003c/em>. Robert, really glad to have you with us.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Good to be here.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Lydia Hamessley is also with us, professor of music at Hamilton College and author of \u003cem>Unlikely Angel: The Songs of Dolly Parton\u003c/em>. Lydia, really appreciate you being with us, too. Thank you very much.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Lydia Hamessley is also with us, professor of music at Hamilton College and author of \u003cem>Unlikely Angel: The Songs of Dolly Parton\u003c/em>. Lydia, really appreciate you being with us, too. Thank you very much.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And Jacob Stensberg, artistic director and conductor of the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus. Jacob, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. Thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And Jacob Stensberg, artistic director and conductor of the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus. Jacob, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. Thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, Robert, you wrote, as I mentioned, \u003cem>Songteller\u003c/em>. Tell me, what was your reaction to receiving news of her death?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> Oh, God, it was the worst day of my life. Several people called and asked me, “Was it a hoax?” You know, because there’s so much misinformation out there, and nobody wants to believe that there’s a world without Dolly Parton in it, including me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it was devastating, but I didn’t have time to think. CNN called and all, you know, NBC and ABC and CBS. I mean, just had a — I never had time to grieve. I never had time to cry, and I still want to cry. I still haven’t had time. I have never wept over a celebrity’s death before, but this one is the worst.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And it was devastating, but I didn’t have time to think. CNN called and all, you know, NBC and ABC and CBS. I mean, just had a — I never had time to grieve. I never had time to cry, and I still want to cry. I still haven’t had time. I have never wept over a celebrity’s death before, but this one is the worst.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, I so appreciate you being here to share that, given what you just shared. And also, just the point that you made that nobody wants to imagine a world without Dolly Parton. Why is that, do you think, Robert?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, I so appreciate you being here to share that, given what you just shared. And also, just the point that you made that nobody wants to imagine a world without Dolly Parton. Why is that, do you think, Robert?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> The one thing that they left out in their introduction about her, you know, philanthropist and musician, star and movie star — how about best dang human being ever? She touched people in profound ways with her life and her music. Yes, a luminous superstar, a great music talent, but above that, a great humanitarian and a person who gave empathy to the world. She gave compassion and understanding and love. And that is the legacy. We should all carry that forward.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> The one thing that they left out in their introduction about her, you know, philanthropist and musician, star and movie star — how about best dang human being ever? She touched people in profound ways with her life and her music. Yes, a luminous superstar, a great music talent, but above that, a great humanitarian and a person who gave empathy to the world. She gave compassion and understanding and love. And that is the legacy. We should all carry that forward.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Lydia, you know, similar question that we’re asking Robert and also our audience, but what did Dolly Parton mean to you? You wrote so deeply about her songs, her lyrics.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Lydia, you know, similar question that we’re asking Robert and also our audience, but what did Dolly Parton mean to you? You wrote so deeply about her songs, her lyrics.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Hamessley:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Well, I had a similar experience as Robert did with assuming it was a hoax, but what she meant to me was just — it was even hard to describe.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Hamessley:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Well, I had a similar experience as Robert did with assuming it was a hoax, but what she meant to me was just — it was even hard to describe.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, I titled my book \u003cem>Unlikely Angel\u003c/em>, partly because people think of her as an angel a lot. She often played angels. She wrote a song called “Unlikely Angels.” But to me, in my life, she was also an unlikely angel. I hadn’t expected to fall in love with her in the way that I did.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, I titled my book \u003cem>Unlikely Angel\u003c/em>, partly because people think of her as an angel a lot. She often played angels. She wrote a song called “Unlikely Angels.” But to me, in my life, she was also an unlikely angel. I hadn’t expected to fall in love with her in the way that I did.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And just so much joy in her music and modeling of what it might be to be a good human being in the world with, as Robert said, the kindness and empathy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And as he said, I had just sat down to dinner. I’m in Germany right now, so it was evening, 8:30 p.m. I just sat down, had my phone out to kill time before my food came, and there it was. And I thought, “No, no, that can’t be right.” And I started texting my friends back in the States. And then someone posted immediately the New York Times obituary. And I just choked up and started blubbering. And I thought, “I’m a woman alone at a table in Germany. I don’t really think I should just be crying here. That might look weird,” you know? So I just kept breathing and I ate.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And as he said, I had just sat down to dinner. I’m in Germany right now, so it was evening, 8:30 p.m. I just sat down, had my phone out to kill time before my food came, and there it was. And I thought, “No, no, that can’t be right.” And I started texting my friends back in the States. And then someone posted immediately the New York Times obituary. And I just choked up and started blubbering. And I thought, “I’m a woman alone at a table in Germany. I don’t really think I should just be crying here. That might look weird,” you know? So I just kept breathing and I ate.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then, like Robert, I got back to my room and couldn’t cry because I had my phone blew up, this thing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And actually, we’re going to see, Lydia, if we can get you on a slightly better line because your phone being in Germany is making a bit of a clicking sound, but we’ll see if we can try to figure that out.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And actually, we’re going to see, Lydia, if we can get you on a slightly better line because your phone being in Germany is making a bit of a clicking sound, but we’ll see if we can try to figure that out.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In the meantime, Jacob, the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus just did a tribute concert to Dolly in June. Talk about why — why Dolly Parton in particular, what she means to you and the chorus.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In the meantime, Jacob, the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus just did a tribute concert to Dolly in June. Talk about why — why Dolly Parton in particular, what she means to you and the chorus.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacob Stensberg:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Yeah, last Pride, Dolly was our muse for the entire Pride season here in San Francisco in the Bay Area, and I was so eager to program a concert completely from her songbook and songwriting, because I discovered that much of our membership, especially the younger generations, knew more about Dolly’s activism and sort of her ethos and the way she made them feel, but didn’t necessarily know all of her incredible music.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacob Stensberg:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Yeah, last Pride, Dolly was our muse for the entire Pride season here in San Francisco in the Bay Area, and I was so eager to program a concert completely from her songbook and songwriting, because I discovered that much of our membership, especially the younger generations, knew more about Dolly’s activism and sort of her ethos and the way she made them feel, but didn’t necessarily know all of her incredible music.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so it was amazing to watch singers take some of her songs, which were incredibly autobiographical, and find so much identity and connection with them, feeling like they were singing about their own experiences and not necessarily just hers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so it was amazing to watch singers take some of her songs, which were incredibly autobiographical, and find so much identity and connection with them, feeling like they were singing about their own experiences and not necessarily just hers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, your lineup included “Travelin’ Thru” and “Coat of Many Colors,” as I understand it. Talk about those songs in particular. “Coat of Many Colors,” in particular, has been described as a queer anthem by some. What makes those songs particularly meaningful, Jacob?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, your lineup included “Travelin’ Thru” and “Coat of Many Colors,” as I understand it. Talk about those songs in particular. “Coat of Many Colors,” in particular, has been described as a queer anthem by some. What makes those songs particularly meaningful, Jacob?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacob Stensberg:\u003c/strong> You know, she has a way of writing these incredible lyrics that can be both hyper-specific to a moment in time, but also universal. And both of those songs that maybe are about, in a really broad sense, going from dark to light or hardship to the other side of that catharsis or healing — especially in a time when all communities, but especially the queer community, is seeking catharsis, healing and joy — singing about those experiences that are both honest but have kind of a happy ending, I think mean a lot to us right now. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacob Stensberg:\u003c/strong> You know, she has a way of writing these incredible lyrics that can be both hyper-specific to a moment in time, but also universal. And both of those songs that maybe are about, in a really broad sense, going from dark to light or hardship to the other side of that catharsis or healing — especially in a time when all communities, but especially the queer community, is seeking catharsis, healing and joy — singing about those experiences that are both honest but have kind of a happy ending, I think mean a lot to us right now. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That was “Coat of Many Colors.” We’re talking right now with Jacob Stensberg, artistic director and conductor of the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus; Lydia Hamessley, a professor of music at Hamilton College who wrote \u003cem>Unlikely Angel: The Songs of Dolly Parton\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Dolly Parton’s Jolene\u003c/em>; and Robert K. Oermann, co-author with Dolly Parton of \u003cem>Songteller: My Life in Lyrics\u003c/em>. And you, our listeners, are joining the conversation with your reflections and memories.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That was “Coat of Many Colors.” We’re talking right now with Jacob Stensberg, artistic director and conductor of the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus; Lydia Hamessley, a professor of music at Hamilton College who wrote \u003cem>Unlikely Angel: The Songs of Dolly Parton\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Dolly Parton’s Jolene\u003c/em>; and Robert K. Oermann, co-author with Dolly Parton of \u003cem>Songteller: My Life in Lyrics\u003c/em>. And you, our listeners, are joining the conversation with your reflections and memories.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Corey writes, “I’m a columnist at the Sydney Morning Herald and just published a piece about her. My argument in the piece is that Dolly built a congregation around the idea of American individualism done right. She was completely herself and carefully avoided defining anyone else, but gave them permission to be whoever they could be. In doing that, she created one of the last places in American life where people could be different together.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Corey writes, “I’m a columnist at the Sydney Morning Herald and just published a piece about her. My argument in the piece is that Dolly built a congregation around the idea of American individualism done right. She was completely herself and carefully avoided defining anyone else, but gave them permission to be whoever they could be. In doing that, she created one of the last places in American life where people could be different together.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Robert, I’m so struck by the choice of the word “Songteller” to describe Dolly Parton for your book. Why “Songteller” as opposed to, say, “songwriter”?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Robert, I’m so struck by the choice of the word “Songteller” to describe Dolly Parton for your book. Why “Songteller” as opposed to, say, “songwriter”?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> First of all, I’m not the author. I am the co-author. Dolly and I wrote that together.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> First of all, I’m not the author. I am the co-author. Dolly and I wrote that together.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That’s right, you co-wrote it together, yeah.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That’s right, you co-wrote it together, yeah.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> We spent days and days together working on that book, and it was Dolly’s idea to call it \u003cem>Songteller\u003c/em>. It was completely her idea. I had mentioned to her that Tom T. Hall was a big, huge country music influence on me, and that he was called the storyteller, and he was a great songwriter as well. She thought, “If he’s the storyteller, then I’m the Songteller.” And she’s also named her downtown Nashville hotel the Songteller Hotel. And it will open this fall, sadly without her.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So she has a lot of those, but then she can go the other way and write songs that she would have called “sad-ass songs,” and those are the ones that are the dead-baby songs, you know. I think of one called “Evening Shade,” which is just a horror of orphans being mistreated, and they all band together and burn down the orphanage with the evil matron in it. And her last line in that is, “Evening Shade was burning just like the—” It was, you know.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re remembering Dolly Parton this hour with Lydia Hamessley, professor of music at Hamilton College; Robert K. Oermann, co-author with Dolly Parton of \u003cem>Songteller\u003c/em>; and Jacob Stensberg of the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus, and with you, our listeners. Stay with us. This is \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Wednesday, August 26, 2026 at 10 am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A uniquely and universally beloved musician and philanthropist, Dolly Parton died Tuesday at 80. One of country music’s most celebrated performers, her signature songs including “Jolene” and “I Will Always Love You” resonated across generations. We talk to Parton biographers about the singer’s life and legacy, and what made her such a distinct American icon. What did Dolly Parton mean to you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann,\u003c/strong> author, \u003cem>Dolly Parton, Songteller: My Life in Lyrics\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Lydia Hamessley\u003c/strong>, professor of music at Hamilton College; author, \u003cem>Unlikely Angel: The Songs of Dolly Parton\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Dolly Parton’s Jolene\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jacob Stensberg\u003c/strong>, artistic director & conductor, San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. The Times headline announcing Dolly Parton’s death called her simply “superstar” because she was more than a chart-topping country music singer, movie star, entrepreneur and philanthropist. Dolly Parton was a legend. And from San Francisco’s Castro to the halls of D.C., she made people of different genders, races and political affiliations feel embraced.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Dolly Parton would say, and did more than once on NPR and public media, that she was mainly a songwriter. Here she is with Kermit the Frog in 1987.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dolly Parton:\u003c/strong> Folks sometimes forget that we’re just everyday people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kermit the Frog:\u003c/strong> Yeah, yeah. You want to talk about it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dolly Parton:\u003c/strong> Not really.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kermit the Frog:\u003c/strong> You wanna sing about it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dolly Parton:\u003c/strong> Well, I’d love to, Kermit, but I have a frog in my throat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Dolly Parton’s death at the age of 80 was announced yesterday, and listeners tell us: What did Dolly Parton mean to you? The number is 866-733-6786. The email address is \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, and you can find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram. We’re at KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Joining me this hour, Robert K. Oermann, author of \u003cem>Dolly Parton, Songteller: My Life in Lyrics\u003c/em>. Robert, really glad to have you with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Good to be here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Lydia Hamessley is also with us, professor of music at Hamilton College and author of \u003cem>Unlikely Angel: The Songs of Dolly Parton\u003c/em>. Lydia, really appreciate you being with us, too. Thank you very much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And Jacob Stensberg, artistic director and conductor of the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus. Jacob, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. Thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, Robert, you wrote, as I mentioned, \u003cem>Songteller\u003c/em>. Tell me, what was your reaction to receiving news of her death?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> Oh, God, it was the worst day of my life. Several people called and asked me, “Was it a hoax?” You know, because there’s so much misinformation out there, and nobody wants to believe that there’s a world without Dolly Parton in it, including me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it was devastating, but I didn’t have time to think. CNN called and all, you know, NBC and ABC and CBS. I mean, just had a — I never had time to grieve. I never had time to cry, and I still want to cry. I still haven’t had time. I have never wept over a celebrity’s death before, but this one is the worst.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, I so appreciate you being here to share that, given what you just shared. And also, just the point that you made that nobody wants to imagine a world without Dolly Parton. Why is that, do you think, Robert?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> The one thing that they left out in their introduction about her, you know, philanthropist and musician, star and movie star — how about best dang human being ever? She touched people in profound ways with her life and her music. Yes, a luminous superstar, a great music talent, but above that, a great humanitarian and a person who gave empathy to the world. She gave compassion and understanding and love. And that is the legacy. We should all carry that forward.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Lydia, you know, similar question that we’re asking Robert and also our audience, but what did Dolly Parton mean to you? You wrote so deeply about her songs, her lyrics.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Hamessley:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Well, I had a similar experience as Robert did with assuming it was a hoax, but what she meant to me was just — it was even hard to describe.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, I titled my book \u003cem>Unlikely Angel\u003c/em>, partly because people think of her as an angel a lot. She often played angels. She wrote a song called “Unlikely Angels.” But to me, in my life, she was also an unlikely angel. I hadn’t expected to fall in love with her in the way that I did.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And just so much joy in her music and modeling of what it might be to be a good human being in the world with, as Robert said, the kindness and empathy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And as he said, I had just sat down to dinner. I’m in Germany right now, so it was evening, 8:30 p.m. I just sat down, had my phone out to kill time before my food came, and there it was. And I thought, “No, no, that can’t be right.” And I started texting my friends back in the States. And then someone posted immediately the New York Times obituary. And I just choked up and started blubbering. And I thought, “I’m a woman alone at a table in Germany. I don’t really think I should just be crying here. That might look weird,” you know? So I just kept breathing and I ate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then, like Robert, I got back to my room and couldn’t cry because I had my phone blew up, this thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And actually, we’re going to see, Lydia, if we can get you on a slightly better line because your phone being in Germany is making a bit of a clicking sound, but we’ll see if we can try to figure that out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the meantime, Jacob, the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus just did a tribute concert to Dolly in June. Talk about why — why Dolly Parton in particular, what she means to you and the chorus.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacob Stensberg:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Yeah, last Pride, Dolly was our muse for the entire Pride season here in San Francisco in the Bay Area, and I was so eager to program a concert completely from her songbook and songwriting, because I discovered that much of our membership, especially the younger generations, knew more about Dolly’s activism and sort of her ethos and the way she made them feel, but didn’t necessarily know all of her incredible music.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so it was amazing to watch singers take some of her songs, which were incredibly autobiographical, and find so much identity and connection with them, feeling like they were singing about their own experiences and not necessarily just hers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, your lineup included “Travelin’ Thru” and “Coat of Many Colors,” as I understand it. Talk about those songs in particular. “Coat of Many Colors,” in particular, has been described as a queer anthem by some. What makes those songs particularly meaningful, Jacob?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jacob Stensberg:\u003c/strong> You know, she has a way of writing these incredible lyrics that can be both hyper-specific to a moment in time, but also universal. And both of those songs that maybe are about, in a really broad sense, going from dark to light or hardship to the other side of that catharsis or healing — especially in a time when all communities, but especially the queer community, is seeking catharsis, healing and joy — singing about those experiences that are both honest but have kind of a happy ending, I think mean a lot to us right now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That was “Coat of Many Colors.” We’re talking right now with Jacob Stensberg, artistic director and conductor of the San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus; Lydia Hamessley, a professor of music at Hamilton College who wrote \u003cem>Unlikely Angel: The Songs of Dolly Parton\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Dolly Parton’s Jolene\u003c/em>; and Robert K. Oermann, co-author with Dolly Parton of \u003cem>Songteller: My Life in Lyrics\u003c/em>. And you, our listeners, are joining the conversation with your reflections and memories.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Corey writes, “I’m a columnist at the Sydney Morning Herald and just published a piece about her. My argument in the piece is that Dolly built a congregation around the idea of American individualism done right. She was completely herself and carefully avoided defining anyone else, but gave them permission to be whoever they could be. In doing that, she created one of the last places in American life where people could be different together.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Robert, I’m so struck by the choice of the word “Songteller” to describe Dolly Parton for your book. Why “Songteller” as opposed to, say, “songwriter”?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> First of all, I’m not the author. I am the co-author. Dolly and I wrote that together.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That’s right, you co-wrote it together, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert K. Oermann:\u003c/strong> We spent days and days together working on that book, and it was Dolly’s idea to call it \u003cem>Songteller\u003c/em>. It was completely her idea. I had mentioned to her that Tom T. Hall was a big, huge country music influence on me, and that he was called the storyteller, and he was a great songwriter as well. She thought, “If he’s the storyteller, then I’m the Songteller.” And she’s also named her downtown Nashville hotel the Songteller Hotel. And it will open this fall, sadly without her.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes. What were the types of stories, Lydia, that Dolly would like to tell through her songs that you noticed by looking so deeply at them?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Hamessley:\u003c/strong> Well, there are several kind of categories. One of them is the uplifting, very much hope and joy and optimism. So there are many of those kinds of songs where she really thinks there’s one better [world] to get to live in, you know, and don’t complain. Like, if you want things to be different, do it, make it different.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So she has a lot of those, but then she can go the other way and write songs that she would have called “sad-ass songs,” and those are the ones that are the dead-baby songs, you know. I think of one called “Evening Shade,” which is just a horror of orphans being mistreated, and they all band together and burn down the orphanage with the evil matron in it. And her last line in that is, “Evening Shade was burning just like the—” It was, you know.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So she could go from the sublime to the morose to everything in between, and yet in each of those categories you can find 10, 20, 30 songs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So she has these kind of tropes that she kept revisiting, and in fact, in the book I had to try to figure out, how am I going to talk about all these songs? I can’t do it chronologically. That seemed haphazard. I did it by topic because she revisits these things over the course of a career.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So she might have a song about the dead babies in the ’70s and then another in the ’90s and another, you know, a couple years later. So she’s got these kind of clumps of, for want of a better word, of ideas.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And one thing that she said, especially, I think, about the really sad songs, is that she can tell stories for other people who can’t tell their own stories.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And she really took that role very seriously, didn’t she?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Hamessley:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. She felt that that could empower people who didn’t have a voice or, as she said, the gift of rhyme or being able to write a song.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Monday, August 24, 2026 at 10 am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In their groundbreaking 1976 book, “How to Control Your Drinking,” William R. Miller and Ricardo F. Muñoz offered a guide for moderate alcohol use. Back then about two-thirds of American adults drank, and now about half do. As Americans drink less and question whether any amount of alcohol is healthy, Miller and Muñoz are out with a new book called “Rethinking Drinking,” to help us figure out what role, if any, drinking should have in our lives.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller, \u003c/strong>American clinical psychologist, an emeritus distinguished professor of psychology and psychiatry at the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque; co-author of “How to Control Your Drinking” (1976) and “Rethinking Drinking” (2026) \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz,\u003c/strong> Distinguished Professor of Clinical Psychology, Emeritus, Palo Alto University; Professor of Psychology, Emeritus, University of California, San Francisco, School of Medicine; co-author of “How to Control Your Drinking” (1976) and “Rethinking Drinking” (2026)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. A new Gallup poll finds that about half of Americans drink now — a record low — with 13% saying they sometimes drink too much, compared to 35% who said that in 1989. So what’s changed?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For more than 50 years, doctors William R. Miller and Ricardo F. Muñoz have been looking at what makes people’s attitudes and behavior change. In 1976, they co-authored \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>. And since then, they’ve revised it five times. The newest version, \u003cem>Rethinking Drinking\u003c/em>, will be released next month and incorporates the latest research and social trends.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Muñoz is Distinguished Professor of Clinical Psychology Emeritus at Palo Alto University, an Emeritus Professor of Psychology at the UCSF School of Medicine, where he was Chief Psychologist at San Francisco General Hospital for 25 years. Miller is an emeritus distinguished professor of psychology and psychiatry at the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque. He’s known for originating motivational interviewing and also for his work on alcohol use disorders.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ricardo Muñoz, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> I’m very happy to be here. Thank you, Mina.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Bill Miller, really glad to have you with us as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Good morning!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Bill, take me back to 1976. What were the attitudes and norms around drinking back then?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> It was very common to have a three-martini lunch. People, on average, drank about 20 beers a week, and of course, drinking and driving was a huge problem. Bars had huge parking lots, and in fact, if you didn’t drink, people asked you why. It was kind of unusual not to drink alcohol at the time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, Ricardo, you’ve talked about how people had sort of a binary view about drinking and drinkers. What was their conception?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Yeah, back then it was thought that there were only two kinds of drinkers. There were alcoholics who really couldn’t drink at all, otherwise they couldn’t stop drinking. And everybody else who didn’t have to worry about drinking. And Bill actually was one of the pioneers in beginning to try controlled drinking approaches. So there were people who had problems with alcohol, but they could learn to moderate their drinking.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, but they didn’t believe that they had the problems because they didn’t view themselves as, quote unquote, an alcoholic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Yeah, many people who had problem drinking did not think they were alcoholics, and again, Bill’s work was one of the first to try to see whether we could help people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> To moderate drinking.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Bill, what made you challenge, yeah, that commonly held idea that Ricardo was describing? What prompted you to take up studying this and to come up with, you know, the idea of moderation as a tool?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> I had a summer internship on an alcoholism unit in a veterans hospital and firsthand witnessed the devastation that that can do in people’s lives. And my passion really was to try to go upstream and see if we couldn’t prevent this and help people get their drinking turned around before it has the devastating consequences that I was seeing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, what would you say was sort of the kind of public health information about drinking that was available at the time?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, that’s changed so much over the decades. I mean, up until about the 1920s, public education was that this is such a dangerous drug that no one can use it safely. And then when Prohibition was repealed, suddenly, it was available everywhere. And so we had this national case of cognitive dissonance, and by the time that we were writing our first book in the 1970s, drinking was so normalized that people wondered what was wrong with you if you didn’t drink.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So then, Ricardo, how did you realize the dangers of drinking if the general social, you know, conversation was what Bill describes? Can you talk about when you were an undergrad at Stanford?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Yes, I was an undergrad living at Lagunita Court, a dorm there, and marijuana joints were passed around when we would get together on weekends, you know, and I would just pass the joint to the next person and…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Oh, you didn’t smoke it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> I didn’t smoke it, and one of the guys said, well, you don’t smoke? And I said, no. Do you drink? And I say, yeah. He said, well, drinking is a lot more dangerous than marijuana, and if you don’t believe me, look it up. So I did. I went to the undergraduate library — we called it Ugly back then — and I looked up alcohol and marijuana, and he was absolutely right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, the amount of risk involved with alcohol drinking, both at the individual level — cirrhosis of the liver, problems with dementia and so on — were already known back in the ’70s. But in addition to that, what really convinced me not to drink was all these social risks. I mean, alcohol was involved, obviously, with traffic accidents, but also was involved with violence. It was involved with sexual assaults, date rapes. Also having sex with someone you didn’t intend to because you were under the influence, and domestic violence, all these things that were happening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I decided — the guy wanted me to begin using marijuana, but I decided that the reasonable thing to do was stop using alcohol. So I haven’t drunk alcohol since then. It was just a logical choice for me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes, and it’s a good point to underscore just how much alcohol does come with social harms as much as individual harms.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, Bill, you know, the book you and Ricardo co-authored in 1976, \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>, it was considered the first self-help book on moderate alcohol use, as I understand it. What did it address? What were you recommending then?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, again, we were just trying to help people cut down their drinking, which now is what your doctor tells you. When you go to the doctor’s office, they now ask you how much you drink. And if it’s over an amount they think is too much, they encourage you to cut it down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We were giving very practical strategies for doing just that, of keeping track of how much you’re drinking, of reducing the speed, slowing down your drinking, and just getting out of situations that are high-risk situations. So just, you know, not rocket science, just very straightforward ways to reduce your drinking. And we put that into a self-help format that, to our surprise, we found people could use on their own, even without working with a therapist.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Are there things in that book that you would not include in your book now, you know, that you would consider dated, Bill?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, one thing we said in earlier versions was that moderate drinking may be beneficial to your health. And I think that has changed. I mean, that was in the ’70s and ’80s, almost an accepted fact that, well, moderate drinking is good for you. Not so much now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The World Health Organization says there really is no truly safe level of alcohol consumption. And I think we’re just much more aware as a society of both the social and the physical risks attached to alcohol use, and whatever level of drinking you do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I’ve noticed that the title is different. So you have revised this book five times, Ricardo, and each time it is some version of \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>. This time, it is called \u003cem>Rethinking Drinking\u003c/em>. Why the change in title?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Well, back in the 1970s, in psychology, it was a move to help people to learn ways of controlling themselves. That was a big deal. There was a book called, for example, \u003cem>Power to the Person\u003c/em>, which was a take-off on “power to the people.” But the whole idea was that you could learn what was making you do the things you did.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So control was a trendy thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Control was a trendy thing, so we had incorporated it. Yes, so \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>. I also co-authored the book called \u003cem>Control Your Depression\u003c/em>, for example, so control was a big deal then — self-control — and that’s what the focus of the book was, to try to help people who felt they had problems.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now we are thinking, given the data that’s now known about health problems — for example, all the cancers that are related to alcohol — now that people, in terms of controlling their drinking, should think about control all the way down to zero. That is, that one way of controlling your drinking is not to use it at all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Though one of the things that I notice is that you really do try to make the point that you’re not telling people, don’t drink. I mean, the subtitle to \u003cem>Rethinking Drinking\u003c/em>, Bill, is \u003cem>Making the Right Choice for You\u003c/em>. So am I interpreting that correctly, that you still drink on occasion and you’re not necessarily saying with this book you shouldn’t drink any alcohol at all?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Oh, definitely. Yeah, I mean, I’ve been a drinker all the time that Ricardo’s been an abstainer. I’m a very moderate drinker, I must say. But it’s up to people. It’s — we take risks every day, just in driving cars and so forth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But what we’re trying to do is help people just be aware of when and how alcohol use can be risky. And how much risk do you want to take with it? So it’s respecting people’s choice to make their own decisions about how they will use alcohol and just giving them the information that they can use to make good decisions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, do you also feel like that with all the new research that has come out saying that no amount of alcohol is good for you, right, that people are, you’re hearing people sort of wondering what place, what role drinking should have, if any, Bill?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, that really is part of the audience for this book now as well. We’re not just writing for people who are drinking way too much and want to moderate it. There are lots of people who are saying, do I want to drink at all? And how do I make that choice? How do I decide that? And so that’s part of the audience for whom we’re writing this book as well, if you’re just thinking about what role does alcohol have in my life. Uh, and it’s not the way I want it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The social conversation has really changed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re talking with Bill Miller, American clinical psychologist, distinguished professor of psychology and psychiatry emeritus at the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque, co-author with Ricardo F. Muñoz of the new book \u003cem>Rethinking Drinking\u003c/em>. They were co-authors of a book like this, though, you know, it’s been revised five times since 1976, but in 1976 it was called \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And listeners, join the conversation. Have you started drinking less? And if you have, tell us why. How are you going about it if you are? And what is the hardest part, do you find, of reducing the amount of drinking or probably going cold turkey? What questions do you have about the effects of alcohol on your health? And if you drink, where does alcohol fit into your life?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can tell us by calling 866-733-6786, by emailing forum@kqed.org, and finding us on Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. A new Gallup poll finds that about half of Americans drink now — a record low — with 13% saying they sometimes drink too much, compared to 35% who said that in 1989. So what’s changed?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Muñoz is Distinguished Professor of Clinical Psychology Emeritus at Palo Alto University, an Emeritus Professor of Psychology at the UCSF School of Medicine, where he was Chief Psychologist at San Francisco General Hospital for 25 years. Miller is an emeritus distinguished professor of psychology and psychiatry at the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque. He’s known for originating motivational interviewing and also for his work on alcohol use disorders.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Bill, take me back to 1976. What were the attitudes and norms around drinking back then?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> It was very common to have a three-martini lunch. People, on average, drank about 20 beers a week, and of course, drinking and driving was a huge problem. Bars had huge parking lots, and in fact, if you didn’t drink, people asked you why. It was kind of unusual not to drink alcohol at the time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> It was very common to have a three-martini lunch. People, on average, drank about 20 beers a week, and of course, drinking and driving was a huge problem. Bars had huge parking lots, and in fact, if you didn’t drink, people asked you why. It was kind of unusual not to drink alcohol at the time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, Ricardo, you’ve talked about how people had sort of a binary view about drinking and drinkers. What was their conception?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, Ricardo, you’ve talked about how people had sort of a binary view about drinking and drinkers. What was their conception?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Yeah, back then it was thought that there were only two kinds of drinkers. There were alcoholics who really couldn’t drink at all, otherwise they couldn’t stop drinking. And everybody else who didn’t have to worry about drinking. And Bill actually was one of the pioneers in beginning to try controlled drinking approaches. So there were people who had problems with alcohol, but they could learn to moderate their drinking.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Yeah, back then it was thought that there were only two kinds of drinkers. There were alcoholics who really couldn’t drink at all, otherwise they couldn’t stop drinking. And everybody else who didn’t have to worry about drinking. And Bill actually was one of the pioneers in beginning to try controlled drinking approaches. So there were people who had problems with alcohol, but they could learn to moderate their drinking.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, but they didn’t believe that they had the problems because they didn’t view themselves as, quote unquote, an alcoholic.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, but they didn’t believe that they had the problems because they didn’t view themselves as, quote unquote, an alcoholic.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Yeah, many people who had problem drinking did not think they were alcoholics, and again, Bill’s work was one of the first to try to see whether we could help people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Yeah, many people who had problem drinking did not think they were alcoholics, and again, Bill’s work was one of the first to try to see whether we could help people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> To moderate drinking.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> To moderate drinking.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Bill, what made you challenge, yeah, that commonly held idea that Ricardo was describing? What prompted you to take up studying this and to come up with, you know, the idea of moderation as a tool?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Bill, what made you challenge, yeah, that commonly held idea that Ricardo was describing? What prompted you to take up studying this and to come up with, you know, the idea of moderation as a tool?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> I had a summer internship on an alcoholism unit in a veterans hospital and firsthand witnessed the devastation that that can do in people’s lives. And my passion really was to try to go upstream and see if we couldn’t prevent this and help people get their drinking turned around before it has the devastating consequences that I was seeing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> I had a summer internship on an alcoholism unit in a veterans hospital and firsthand witnessed the devastation that that can do in people’s lives. And my passion really was to try to go upstream and see if we couldn’t prevent this and help people get their drinking turned around before it has the devastating consequences that I was seeing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, what would you say was sort of the kind of public health information about drinking that was available at the time?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, what would you say was sort of the kind of public health information about drinking that was available at the time?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, that’s changed so much over the decades. I mean, up until about the 1920s, public education was that this is such a dangerous drug that no one can use it safely. And then when Prohibition was repealed, suddenly, it was available everywhere. And so we had this national case of cognitive dissonance, and by the time that we were writing our first book in the 1970s, drinking was so normalized that people wondered what was wrong with you if you didn’t drink.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, that’s changed so much over the decades. I mean, up until about the 1920s, public education was that this is such a dangerous drug that no one can use it safely. And then when Prohibition was repealed, suddenly, it was available everywhere. And so we had this national case of cognitive dissonance, and by the time that we were writing our first book in the 1970s, drinking was so normalized that people wondered what was wrong with you if you didn’t drink.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So then, Ricardo, how did you realize the dangers of drinking if the general social, you know, conversation was what Bill describes? Can you talk about when you were an undergrad at Stanford?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So then, Ricardo, how did you realize the dangers of drinking if the general social, you know, conversation was what Bill describes? Can you talk about when you were an undergrad at Stanford?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Yes, I was an undergrad living at Lagunita Court, a dorm there, and marijuana joints were passed around when we would get together on weekends, you know, and I would just pass the joint to the next person and…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Yes, I was an undergrad living at Lagunita Court, a dorm there, and marijuana joints were passed around when we would get together on weekends, you know, and I would just pass the joint to the next person and…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Oh, you didn’t smoke it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Oh, you didn’t smoke it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> I didn’t smoke it, and one of the guys said, well, you don’t smoke? And I said, no. Do you drink? And I say, yeah. He said, well, drinking is a lot more dangerous than marijuana, and if you don’t believe me, look it up. So I did. I went to the undergraduate library — we called it Ugly back then — and I looked up alcohol and marijuana, and he was absolutely right.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> I didn’t smoke it, and one of the guys said, well, you don’t smoke? And I said, no. Do you drink? And I say, yeah. He said, well, drinking is a lot more dangerous than marijuana, and if you don’t believe me, look it up. So I did. I went to the undergraduate library — we called it Ugly back then — and I looked up alcohol and marijuana, and he was absolutely right.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You know, the amount of risk involved with alcohol drinking, both at the individual level — cirrhosis of the liver, problems with dementia and so on — were already known back in the ’70s. But in addition to that, what really convinced me not to drink was all these social risks. I mean, alcohol was involved, obviously, with traffic accidents, but also was involved with violence. It was involved with sexual assaults, date rapes. Also having sex with someone you didn’t intend to because you were under the influence, and domestic violence, all these things that were happening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You know, the amount of risk involved with alcohol drinking, both at the individual level — cirrhosis of the liver, problems with dementia and so on — were already known back in the ’70s. But in addition to that, what really convinced me not to drink was all these social risks. I mean, alcohol was involved, obviously, with traffic accidents, but also was involved with violence. It was involved with sexual assaults, date rapes. Also having sex with someone you didn’t intend to because you were under the influence, and domestic violence, all these things that were happening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I decided — the guy wanted me to begin using marijuana, but I decided that the reasonable thing to do was stop using alcohol. So I haven’t drunk alcohol since then. It was just a logical choice for me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I decided — the guy wanted me to begin using marijuana, but I decided that the reasonable thing to do was stop using alcohol. So I haven’t drunk alcohol since then. It was just a logical choice for me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes, and it’s a good point to underscore just how much alcohol does come with social harms as much as individual harms.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes, and it’s a good point to underscore just how much alcohol does come with social harms as much as individual harms.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, Bill, you know, the book you and Ricardo co-authored in 1976, \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>, it was considered the first self-help book on moderate alcohol use, as I understand it. What did it address? What were you recommending then?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, Bill, you know, the book you and Ricardo co-authored in 1976, \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>, it was considered the first self-help book on moderate alcohol use, as I understand it. What did it address? What were you recommending then?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, again, we were just trying to help people cut down their drinking, which now is what your doctor tells you. When you go to the doctor’s office, they now ask you how much you drink. And if it’s over an amount they think is too much, they encourage you to cut it down.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, again, we were just trying to help people cut down their drinking, which now is what your doctor tells you. When you go to the doctor’s office, they now ask you how much you drink. And if it’s over an amount they think is too much, they encourage you to cut it down.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We were giving very practical strategies for doing just that, of keeping track of how much you’re drinking, of reducing the speed, slowing down your drinking, and just getting out of situations that are high-risk situations. So just, you know, not rocket science, just very straightforward ways to reduce your drinking. And we put that into a self-help format that, to our surprise, we found people could use on their own, even without working with a therapist.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We were giving very practical strategies for doing just that, of keeping track of how much you’re drinking, of reducing the speed, slowing down your drinking, and just getting out of situations that are high-risk situations. So just, you know, not rocket science, just very straightforward ways to reduce your drinking. And we put that into a self-help format that, to our surprise, we found people could use on their own, even without working with a therapist.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Are there things in that book that you would not include in your book now, you know, that you would consider dated, Bill?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Are there things in that book that you would not include in your book now, you know, that you would consider dated, Bill?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, one thing we said in earlier versions was that moderate drinking may be beneficial to your health. And I think that has changed. I mean, that was in the ’70s and ’80s, almost an accepted fact that, well, moderate drinking is good for you. Not so much now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, one thing we said in earlier versions was that moderate drinking may be beneficial to your health. And I think that has changed. I mean, that was in the ’70s and ’80s, almost an accepted fact that, well, moderate drinking is good for you. Not so much now.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The World Health Organization says there really is no truly safe level of alcohol consumption. And I think we’re just much more aware as a society of both the social and the physical risks attached to alcohol use, and whatever level of drinking you do.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The World Health Organization says there really is no truly safe level of alcohol consumption. And I think we’re just much more aware as a society of both the social and the physical risks attached to alcohol use, and whatever level of drinking you do.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I’ve noticed that the title is different. So you have revised this book five times, Ricardo, and each time it is some version of \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>. This time, it is called \u003cem>Rethinking Drinking\u003c/em>. Why the change in title?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I’ve noticed that the title is different. So you have revised this book five times, Ricardo, and each time it is some version of \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>. This time, it is called \u003cem>Rethinking Drinking\u003c/em>. Why the change in title?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Well, back in the 1970s, in psychology, it was a move to help people to learn ways of controlling themselves. That was a big deal. There was a book called, for example, \u003cem>Power to the Person\u003c/em>, which was a take-off on “power to the people.” But the whole idea was that you could learn what was making you do the things you did.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Well, back in the 1970s, in psychology, it was a move to help people to learn ways of controlling themselves. That was a big deal. There was a book called, for example, \u003cem>Power to the Person\u003c/em>, which was a take-off on “power to the people.” But the whole idea was that you could learn what was making you do the things you did.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So control was a trendy thing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So control was a trendy thing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Control was a trendy thing, so we had incorporated it. Yes, so \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>. I also co-authored the book called \u003cem>Control Your Depression\u003c/em>, for example, so control was a big deal then — self-control — and that’s what the focus of the book was, to try to help people who felt they had problems.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Control was a trendy thing, so we had incorporated it. Yes, so \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>. I also co-authored the book called \u003cem>Control Your Depression\u003c/em>, for example, so control was a big deal then — self-control — and that’s what the focus of the book was, to try to help people who felt they had problems.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now we are thinking, given the data that’s now known about health problems — for example, all the cancers that are related to alcohol — now that people, in terms of controlling their drinking, should think about control all the way down to zero. That is, that one way of controlling your drinking is not to use it at all.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now we are thinking, given the data that’s now known about health problems — for example, all the cancers that are related to alcohol — now that people, in terms of controlling their drinking, should think about control all the way down to zero. That is, that one way of controlling your drinking is not to use it at all.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Though one of the things that I notice is that you really do try to make the point that you’re not telling people, don’t drink. I mean, the subtitle to \u003cem>Rethinking Drinking\u003c/em>, Bill, is \u003cem>Making the Right Choice for You\u003c/em>. So am I interpreting that correctly, that you still drink on occasion and you’re not necessarily saying with this book you shouldn’t drink any alcohol at all?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Though one of the things that I notice is that you really do try to make the point that you’re not telling people, don’t drink. I mean, the subtitle to \u003cem>Rethinking Drinking\u003c/em>, Bill, is \u003cem>Making the Right Choice for You\u003c/em>. So am I interpreting that correctly, that you still drink on occasion and you’re not necessarily saying with this book you shouldn’t drink any alcohol at all?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Oh, definitely. Yeah, I mean, I’ve been a drinker all the time that Ricardo’s been an abstainer. I’m a very moderate drinker, I must say. But it’s up to people. It’s — we take risks every day, just in driving cars and so forth.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Oh, definitely. Yeah, I mean, I’ve been a drinker all the time that Ricardo’s been an abstainer. I’m a very moderate drinker, I must say. But it’s up to people. It’s — we take risks every day, just in driving cars and so forth.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But what we’re trying to do is help people just be aware of when and how alcohol use can be risky. And how much risk do you want to take with it? So it’s respecting people’s choice to make their own decisions about how they will use alcohol and just giving them the information that they can use to make good decisions.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But what we’re trying to do is help people just be aware of when and how alcohol use can be risky. And how much risk do you want to take with it? So it’s respecting people’s choice to make their own decisions about how they will use alcohol and just giving them the information that they can use to make good decisions.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, do you also feel like that with all the new research that has come out saying that no amount of alcohol is good for you, right, that people are, you’re hearing people sort of wondering what place, what role drinking should have, if any, Bill?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, do you also feel like that with all the new research that has come out saying that no amount of alcohol is good for you, right, that people are, you’re hearing people sort of wondering what place, what role drinking should have, if any, Bill?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, that really is part of the audience for this book now as well. We’re not just writing for people who are drinking way too much and want to moderate it. There are lots of people who are saying, do I want to drink at all? And how do I make that choice? How do I decide that? And so that’s part of the audience for whom we’re writing this book as well, if you’re just thinking about what role does alcohol have in my life. Uh, and it’s not the way I want it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, that really is part of the audience for this book now as well. We’re not just writing for people who are drinking way too much and want to moderate it. There are lots of people who are saying, do I want to drink at all? And how do I make that choice? How do I decide that? And so that’s part of the audience for whom we’re writing this book as well, if you’re just thinking about what role does alcohol have in my life. Uh, and it’s not the way I want it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The social conversation has really changed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The social conversation has really changed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’re talking with Bill Miller, American clinical psychologist, distinguished professor of psychology and psychiatry emeritus at the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque, co-author with Ricardo F. Muñoz of the new book \u003cem>Rethinking Drinking\u003c/em>. They were co-authors of a book like this, though, you know, it’s been revised five times since 1976, but in 1976 it was called \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Monday, August 24, 2026 at 10 am\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In their groundbreaking 1976 book, “How to Control Your Drinking,” William R. Miller and Ricardo F. Muñoz offered a guide for moderate alcohol use. Back then about two-thirds of American adults drank, and now about half do. As Americans drink less and question whether any amount of alcohol is healthy, Miller and Muñoz are out with a new book called “Rethinking Drinking,” to help us figure out what role, if any, drinking should have in our lives.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller, \u003c/strong>American clinical psychologist, an emeritus distinguished professor of psychology and psychiatry at the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque; co-author of “How to Control Your Drinking” (1976) and “Rethinking Drinking” (2026) \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz,\u003c/strong> Distinguished Professor of Clinical Psychology, Emeritus, Palo Alto University; Professor of Psychology, Emeritus, University of California, San Francisco, School of Medicine; co-author of “How to Control Your Drinking” (1976) and “Rethinking Drinking” (2026)\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. A new Gallup poll finds that about half of Americans drink now — a record low — with 13% saying they sometimes drink too much, compared to 35% who said that in 1989. So what’s changed?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For more than 50 years, doctors William R. Miller and Ricardo F. Muñoz have been looking at what makes people’s attitudes and behavior change. In 1976, they co-authored \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>. And since then, they’ve revised it five times. The newest version, \u003cem>Rethinking Drinking\u003c/em>, will be released next month and incorporates the latest research and social trends.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Muñoz is Distinguished Professor of Clinical Psychology Emeritus at Palo Alto University, an Emeritus Professor of Psychology at the UCSF School of Medicine, where he was Chief Psychologist at San Francisco General Hospital for 25 years. Miller is an emeritus distinguished professor of psychology and psychiatry at the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque. He’s known for originating motivational interviewing and also for his work on alcohol use disorders.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ricardo Muñoz, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> I’m very happy to be here. Thank you, Mina.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Bill Miller, really glad to have you with us as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Good morning!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Bill, take me back to 1976. What were the attitudes and norms around drinking back then?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> It was very common to have a three-martini lunch. People, on average, drank about 20 beers a week, and of course, drinking and driving was a huge problem. Bars had huge parking lots, and in fact, if you didn’t drink, people asked you why. It was kind of unusual not to drink alcohol at the time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, Ricardo, you’ve talked about how people had sort of a binary view about drinking and drinkers. What was their conception?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Yeah, back then it was thought that there were only two kinds of drinkers. There were alcoholics who really couldn’t drink at all, otherwise they couldn’t stop drinking. And everybody else who didn’t have to worry about drinking. And Bill actually was one of the pioneers in beginning to try controlled drinking approaches. So there were people who had problems with alcohol, but they could learn to moderate their drinking.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, but they didn’t believe that they had the problems because they didn’t view themselves as, quote unquote, an alcoholic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Yeah, many people who had problem drinking did not think they were alcoholics, and again, Bill’s work was one of the first to try to see whether we could help people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> To moderate drinking.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Bill, what made you challenge, yeah, that commonly held idea that Ricardo was describing? What prompted you to take up studying this and to come up with, you know, the idea of moderation as a tool?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> I had a summer internship on an alcoholism unit in a veterans hospital and firsthand witnessed the devastation that that can do in people’s lives. And my passion really was to try to go upstream and see if we couldn’t prevent this and help people get their drinking turned around before it has the devastating consequences that I was seeing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, what would you say was sort of the kind of public health information about drinking that was available at the time?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, that’s changed so much over the decades. I mean, up until about the 1920s, public education was that this is such a dangerous drug that no one can use it safely. And then when Prohibition was repealed, suddenly, it was available everywhere. And so we had this national case of cognitive dissonance, and by the time that we were writing our first book in the 1970s, drinking was so normalized that people wondered what was wrong with you if you didn’t drink.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So then, Ricardo, how did you realize the dangers of drinking if the general social, you know, conversation was what Bill describes? Can you talk about when you were an undergrad at Stanford?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Yes, I was an undergrad living at Lagunita Court, a dorm there, and marijuana joints were passed around when we would get together on weekends, you know, and I would just pass the joint to the next person and…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Oh, you didn’t smoke it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> I didn’t smoke it, and one of the guys said, well, you don’t smoke? And I said, no. Do you drink? And I say, yeah. He said, well, drinking is a lot more dangerous than marijuana, and if you don’t believe me, look it up. So I did. I went to the undergraduate library — we called it Ugly back then — and I looked up alcohol and marijuana, and he was absolutely right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You know, the amount of risk involved with alcohol drinking, both at the individual level — cirrhosis of the liver, problems with dementia and so on — were already known back in the ’70s. But in addition to that, what really convinced me not to drink was all these social risks. I mean, alcohol was involved, obviously, with traffic accidents, but also was involved with violence. It was involved with sexual assaults, date rapes. Also having sex with someone you didn’t intend to because you were under the influence, and domestic violence, all these things that were happening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I decided — the guy wanted me to begin using marijuana, but I decided that the reasonable thing to do was stop using alcohol. So I haven’t drunk alcohol since then. It was just a logical choice for me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes, and it’s a good point to underscore just how much alcohol does come with social harms as much as individual harms.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, Bill, you know, the book you and Ricardo co-authored in 1976, \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>, it was considered the first self-help book on moderate alcohol use, as I understand it. What did it address? What were you recommending then?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, again, we were just trying to help people cut down their drinking, which now is what your doctor tells you. When you go to the doctor’s office, they now ask you how much you drink. And if it’s over an amount they think is too much, they encourage you to cut it down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We were giving very practical strategies for doing just that, of keeping track of how much you’re drinking, of reducing the speed, slowing down your drinking, and just getting out of situations that are high-risk situations. So just, you know, not rocket science, just very straightforward ways to reduce your drinking. And we put that into a self-help format that, to our surprise, we found people could use on their own, even without working with a therapist.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Are there things in that book that you would not include in your book now, you know, that you would consider dated, Bill?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, one thing we said in earlier versions was that moderate drinking may be beneficial to your health. And I think that has changed. I mean, that was in the ’70s and ’80s, almost an accepted fact that, well, moderate drinking is good for you. Not so much now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The World Health Organization says there really is no truly safe level of alcohol consumption. And I think we’re just much more aware as a society of both the social and the physical risks attached to alcohol use, and whatever level of drinking you do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I’ve noticed that the title is different. So you have revised this book five times, Ricardo, and each time it is some version of \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>. This time, it is called \u003cem>Rethinking Drinking\u003c/em>. Why the change in title?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Well, back in the 1970s, in psychology, it was a move to help people to learn ways of controlling themselves. That was a big deal. There was a book called, for example, \u003cem>Power to the Person\u003c/em>, which was a take-off on “power to the people.” But the whole idea was that you could learn what was making you do the things you did.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So control was a trendy thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ricardo F. Muñoz:\u003c/strong> Control was a trendy thing, so we had incorporated it. Yes, so \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>. I also co-authored the book called \u003cem>Control Your Depression\u003c/em>, for example, so control was a big deal then — self-control — and that’s what the focus of the book was, to try to help people who felt they had problems.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now we are thinking, given the data that’s now known about health problems — for example, all the cancers that are related to alcohol — now that people, in terms of controlling their drinking, should think about control all the way down to zero. That is, that one way of controlling your drinking is not to use it at all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Though one of the things that I notice is that you really do try to make the point that you’re not telling people, don’t drink. I mean, the subtitle to \u003cem>Rethinking Drinking\u003c/em>, Bill, is \u003cem>Making the Right Choice for You\u003c/em>. So am I interpreting that correctly, that you still drink on occasion and you’re not necessarily saying with this book you shouldn’t drink any alcohol at all?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Oh, definitely. Yeah, I mean, I’ve been a drinker all the time that Ricardo’s been an abstainer. I’m a very moderate drinker, I must say. But it’s up to people. It’s — we take risks every day, just in driving cars and so forth.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But what we’re trying to do is help people just be aware of when and how alcohol use can be risky. And how much risk do you want to take with it? So it’s respecting people’s choice to make their own decisions about how they will use alcohol and just giving them the information that they can use to make good decisions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, do you also feel like that with all the new research that has come out saying that no amount of alcohol is good for you, right, that people are, you’re hearing people sort of wondering what place, what role drinking should have, if any, Bill?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>William R. Miller:\u003c/strong> Well, that really is part of the audience for this book now as well. We’re not just writing for people who are drinking way too much and want to moderate it. There are lots of people who are saying, do I want to drink at all? And how do I make that choice? How do I decide that? And so that’s part of the audience for whom we’re writing this book as well, if you’re just thinking about what role does alcohol have in my life. Uh, and it’s not the way I want it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The social conversation has really changed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re talking with Bill Miller, American clinical psychologist, distinguished professor of psychology and psychiatry emeritus at the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque, co-author with Ricardo F. Muñoz of the new book \u003cem>Rethinking Drinking\u003c/em>. They were co-authors of a book like this, though, you know, it’s been revised five times since 1976, but in 1976 it was called \u003cem>How to Control Your Drinking\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And listeners, join the conversation. Have you started drinking less? And if you have, tell us why. How are you going about it if you are? 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About two years ago, I started a series called “How to Thrive as You Age.” And as part of that, I did a story about the Potocsnak Longevity Institute at Northwestern University. And I was pitched the story as an exclusive, and of course, as a journalist, and someone’s giving you the story, and no one else, you kind of think, oh yeah, I want to do that story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, you know, I find myself in Chicago at the Potocsnak Institute. I’m rolling my sleeve up in the name of science and the name of a good story. And the whole point of the research at the institute, at least for their first study, is to help discern a person’s biological age, which is your personal rate of aging, like indexed against your peers, compared to your chronological age, which is the number of candles on your birthday cake, like the number of years you’ve actually been alive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I thought, like, oh yeah, I’m gung-ho. This is a cool story, cool science. And I kind of unwittingly put myself right into the middle of that, into, like, a daylong series of tests where I learned a whole lot about myself that I wasn’t expecting to learn.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think really the book started that day because I was thinking to myself, Allison, you’re not just reporting on aging, you are aging. And if you’re going to do this well, you’re going to have to slow down a bit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, it’s so true. At this stage, we are going through so many physical changes, and there were also a lot of other signs for you that you did need to take a turn for yourself. For example, you know, you share you had the nickname Smiley, but you didn’t feel so smiley anymore.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Allison Aubrey:\u003c/strong> That was just an outward expression. 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And what is my purpose now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And these are hard questions to ask, but I have found that the people who ask them tend to do best in terms of embracing a next chapter, in terms of leaving something behind to start something new. And that is what is required if you want to make a midlife pivot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to invite listeners into the conversation. Does Allison’s story of entering midlife resonate with you? Have you struggled to know who you are outside of work or family? Did you find new happiness or meaning in midlife? And, of course, what do you want to ask or tell Allison if you’re familiar with her reporting?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can email \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram at KQED Forum, or you can call us at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, Allison, you found comfort in the metaphor of the third turn. Can you explain it to us?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Allison Aubrey:\u003c/strong> Sure. Well, I grew up in Kentucky, in Louisville. And when I was a kid, I went to Churchill Downs, which is the home of the Kentucky Derby. And when I was about 13 years old, I watched the race. And a horse that was in the back of the pack for much of the first half of the race suddenly found this surge of energy that no one was expecting. 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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Great to have you. So your book, it is both a how-to guide, but also a very personal reflection of how destabilizing initially midlife felt for you. And I did wonder what it was like as a journalist to be so open about your personal life.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Great to have you. So your book, it is both a how-to guide, but also a very personal reflection of how destabilizing initially midlife felt for you. And I did wonder what it was like as a journalist to be so open about your personal life.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Allison Aubrey:\u003c/strong> Yes, well, there is a bit of memoir in here. I have to tell you, in the first process of writing the book, I was writing some early chapters and I would send them off to my editor, and she’d write back, “Too much like an NPR story. Need more of you.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Allison Aubrey:\u003c/strong> Yes, well, there is a bit of memoir in here. I have to tell you, in the first process of writing the book, I was writing some early chapters and I would send them off to my editor, and she’d write back, “Too much like an NPR story. Need more of you.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so literally, like anything else in life, the more you try it, the more it’s like building a muscle. So, like, bit by bit, by bit, I was saying a little bit more about me. So yeah, there’s a little memoir in here, but mostly it’s a guide for you, the reader.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so literally, like anything else in life, the more you try it, the more it’s like building a muscle. So, like, bit by bit, by bit, I was saying a little bit more about me. So yeah, there’s a little memoir in here, but mostly it’s a guide for you, the reader.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, yeah. I just — so many women I know who go into journalism, they do it because they’re more comfortable telling other people’s stories.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, yeah. I just — so many women I know who go into journalism, they do it because they’re more comfortable telling other people’s stories.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Allison Aubrey:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. I have been telling other people’s stories for 25 years, so putting myself into the middle of it, it was something completely new.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Allison Aubrey:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. I have been telling other people’s stories for 25 years, so putting myself into the middle of it, it was something completely new.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think I kind of stepped into that very early on. About two years ago, I started a series called “How to Thrive as You Age.” And as part of that, I did a story about the Potocsnak Longevity Institute at Northwestern University. And I was pitched the story as an exclusive, and of course, as a journalist, and someone’s giving you the story, and no one else, you kind of think, oh yeah, I want to do that story.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think I kind of stepped into that very early on. About two years ago, I started a series called “How to Thrive as You Age.” And as part of that, I did a story about the Potocsnak Longevity Institute at Northwestern University. And I was pitched the story as an exclusive, and of course, as a journalist, and someone’s giving you the story, and no one else, you kind of think, oh yeah, I want to do that story.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, you know, I find myself in Chicago at the Potocsnak Institute. I’m rolling my sleeve up in the name of science and the name of a good story. And the whole point of the research at the institute, at least for their first study, is to help discern a person’s biological age, which is your personal rate of aging, like indexed against your peers, compared to your chronological age, which is the number of candles on your birthday cake, like the number of years you’ve actually been alive.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, you know, I find myself in Chicago at the Potocsnak Institute. I’m rolling my sleeve up in the name of science and the name of a good story. And the whole point of the research at the institute, at least for their first study, is to help discern a person’s biological age, which is your personal rate of aging, like indexed against your peers, compared to your chronological age, which is the number of candles on your birthday cake, like the number of years you’ve actually been alive.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I thought, like, oh yeah, I’m gung-ho. This is a cool story, cool science. And I kind of unwittingly put myself right into the middle of that, into, like, a daylong series of tests where I learned a whole lot about myself that I wasn’t expecting to learn.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I thought, like, oh yeah, I’m gung-ho. This is a cool story, cool science. And I kind of unwittingly put myself right into the middle of that, into, like, a daylong series of tests where I learned a whole lot about myself that I wasn’t expecting to learn.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think really the book started that day because I was thinking to myself, Allison, you’re not just reporting on aging, you are aging. And if you’re going to do this well, you’re going to have to slow down a bit.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think really the book started that day because I was thinking to myself, Allison, you’re not just reporting on aging, you are aging. And if you’re going to do this well, you’re going to have to slow down a bit.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, it’s so true. At this stage, we are going through so many physical changes, and there were also a lot of other signs for you that you did need to take a turn for yourself. For example, you know, you share you had the nickname Smiley, but you didn’t feel so smiley anymore.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, it’s so true. At this stage, we are going through so many physical changes, and there were also a lot of other signs for you that you did need to take a turn for yourself. For example, you know, you share you had the nickname Smiley, but you didn’t feel so smiley anymore.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Allison Aubrey:\u003c/strong> That was just an outward expression. And yes, I mean, early in my life and career, I would call myself a joyful sort of upbeat person, but yeah, there was a time when I really felt like I was running to stand still, sort of coming out of the pandemic, where we here on the Science Desk were reporting often until 10, 11 o’clock at night, waking up to do Up First at five o’clock in the morning. And that went on and on and on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Allison Aubrey:\u003c/strong> That was just an outward expression. And yes, I mean, early in my life and career, I would call myself a joyful sort of upbeat person, but yeah, there was a time when I really felt like I was running to stand still, sort of coming out of the pandemic, where we here on the Science Desk were reporting often until 10, 11 o’clock at night, waking up to do Up First at five o’clock in the morning. And that went on and on and on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I think I was burned out without realizing it. And part of those tests at the Potocsnak Institute, I mean, a couple of them. For instance, one, they strapped this device on me to read all the electrical signals of my heart over a kind of period of time. And they picked up some little irregularities. And when they gave me the news, I was super freaked out. And they’re like, no, don’t worry. This isn’t like AFib. This is kind of lifestyle-related. It’s sort of like being over-caffeinated, being always on, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I think I was burned out without realizing it. And part of those tests at the Potocsnak Institute, I mean, a couple of them. For instance, one, they strapped this device on me to read all the electrical signals of my heart over a kind of period of time. And they picked up some little irregularities. And when they gave me the news, I was super freaked out. And they’re like, no, don’t worry. This isn’t like AFib. This is kind of lifestyle-related. It’s sort of like being over-caffeinated, being always on, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And interestingly, by cutting caffeine in half and finding more time for meditation, those irregularities actually went away. So yeah, I mean, why it took the health reporter 25 years to figure out that I was subject to the same things that I’d been reporting on, that stress can really run us down and that burnout can make us feel like we are running to stand still. I certainly felt that moment, and that’s when I decided, you know what, I’m going to write this book. And it entailed taking a sabbatical, sort of leaving the newsroom and going on what I called a curiosity tour.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And interestingly, by cutting caffeine in half and finding more time for meditation, those irregularities actually went away. So yeah, I mean, why it took the health reporter 25 years to figure out that I was subject to the same things that I’d been reporting on, that stress can really run us down and that burnout can make us feel like we are running to stand still. I certainly felt that moment, and that’s when I decided, you know what, I’m going to write this book. And it entailed taking a sabbatical, sort of leaving the newsroom and going on what I called a curiosity tour.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I was really struck by the line where you say you knew you needed to do something different. You said, “I felt stuck between feeling that it was time for something new and not knowing how to find that something.” Did some of the thrill and excitement of your job wane as well?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I was really struck by the line where you say you knew you needed to do something different. You said, “I felt stuck between feeling that it was time for something new and not knowing how to find that something.” Did some of the thrill and excitement of your job wane as well?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Allison Aubrey:\u003c/strong> You know, I really think that I have gotten to a point where what I do is very well practiced, and there’s an upside to that, right? It’s wonderful to feel competent in life and to have something that you love to do, that you’re paid to do. I love to say that my job has sort of given me three graduate degrees and I’ve been paid to do it. So I’m, you know, super appreciative and thankful for the career that I’ve had up until this point.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Allison Aubrey:\u003c/strong> You know, I really think that I have gotten to a point where what I do is very well practiced, and there’s an upside to that, right? It’s wonderful to feel competent in life and to have something that you love to do, that you’re paid to do. I love to say that my job has sort of given me three graduate degrees and I’ve been paid to do it. So I’m, you know, super appreciative and thankful for the career that I’ve had up until this point.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I also think that at this age, I really started to feel like most of what I know wasn’t getting on the air. When you learn a whole lot of things and then you’re very well practiced in reducing it and marinating it to its pithiest form, say, a 2:45 soundbite, that’s a service to the listener. So there’s nothing wrong with that. But it also leaves on the table a lot of the things that I know.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I also think that at this age, I really started to feel like most of what I know wasn’t getting on the air. When you learn a whole lot of things and then you’re very well practiced in reducing it and marinating it to its pithiest form, say, a 2:45 soundbite, that’s a service to the listener. So there’s nothing wrong with that. But it also leaves on the table a lot of the things that I know.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I would say that the transition I’ve made in my own head is that I revere science. It’s what I’ve been doing for the last 25 years. I love the idea you can use the scientific method to ask questions and answer them. But when I looked in the mirror at midlife, I realized a lot of the questions I was asking myself were questions of the heart. They weren’t questions that the scientific process could necessarily answer. And so I needed to take time to explore that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I would say that the transition I’ve made in my own head is that I revere science. It’s what I’ve been doing for the last 25 years. I love the idea you can use the scientific method to ask questions and answer them. But when I looked in the mirror at midlife, I realized a lot of the questions I was asking myself were questions of the heart. They weren’t questions that the scientific process could necessarily answer. And so I needed to take time to explore that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you do share this really touching moment of crying in your son’s empty bedroom after he left for college. And it wasn’t just about missing him, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you do share this really touching moment of crying in your son’s empty bedroom after he left for college. And it wasn’t just about missing him, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Allison Aubrey:\u003c/strong> No, it’s about shifting identities, right? You know, I mean, I think that when our children are going through adolescence, they’re asking three basic questions, which is, you know, who am I, what’s happening to my body with everything shifting at once, and what is my purpose?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Allison Aubrey:\u003c/strong> No, it’s about shifting identities, right? You know, I mean, I think that when our children are going through adolescence, they’re asking three basic questions, which is, you know, who am I, what’s happening to my body with everything shifting at once, and what is my purpose?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it kind of mirrors those Erik Erikson steps, you know? Erik Erikson said the question is, what is generativity, which was his word for purpose.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And it kind of mirrors those Erik Erikson steps, you know? Erik Erikson said the question is, what is generativity, which was his word for purpose.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What I have realized and come to see through my own children and launching them is that as they have been in this process of finding themselves in these teenage years, you know, we have words for that in our everyday nomenclature. We say that there’s teenage rebellion. We call things hormones, right? And we make room for our teenagers to explore who they are.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What I have realized and come to see through my own children and launching them is that as they have been in this process of finding themselves in these teenage years, you know, we have words for that in our everyday nomenclature. We say that there’s teenage rebellion. We call things hormones, right? And we make room for our teenagers to explore who they are.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When my own daughter kind of started her transition into adolescence, she’s 15 now. You know, she was doing what teenagers do, kind of pushing me away. And while that hurts or stings in the moment, she’s doing exactly the thing that she’s supposed to be doing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When my own daughter kind of started her transition into adolescence, she’s 15 now. You know, she was doing what teenagers do, kind of pushing me away. And while that hurts or stings in the moment, she’s doing exactly the thing that she’s supposed to be doing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And as she was that, sort of giving me these angsty vibes and sort of putting me over here to the side, I realized something. Oh, my gosh, like, I’m going through the same thing. I was almost like a mirror reflection. I was thinking, I’m asking myself those same questions, right? Like, who am I now if my life isn’t completely defined by mothering and journalism and, like, what’s happening to my body? And what is my purpose now?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And as she was that, sort of giving me these angsty vibes and sort of putting me over here to the side, I realized something. Oh, my gosh, like, I’m going through the same thing. I was almost like a mirror reflection. I was thinking, I’m asking myself those same questions, right? Like, who am I now if my life isn’t completely defined by mothering and journalism and, like, what’s happening to my body? And what is my purpose now?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And these are hard questions to ask, but I have found that the people who ask them tend to do best in terms of embracing a next chapter, in terms of leaving something behind to start something new. And that is what is required if you want to make a midlife pivot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And these are hard questions to ask, but I have found that the people who ask them tend to do best in terms of embracing a next chapter, in terms of leaving something behind to start something new. And that is what is required if you want to make a midlife pivot.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to invite listeners into the conversation. Does Allison’s story of entering midlife resonate with you? Have you struggled to know who you are outside of work or family? Did you find new happiness or meaning in midlife? And, of course, what do you want to ask or tell Allison if you’re familiar with her reporting?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to invite listeners into the conversation. Does Allison’s story of entering midlife resonate with you? Have you struggled to know who you are outside of work or family? Did you find new happiness or meaning in midlife? And, of course, what do you want to ask or tell Allison if you’re familiar with her reporting?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You can email \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram at KQED Forum, or you can call us at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You can email \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram at KQED Forum, or you can call us at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, Allison, you found comfort in the metaphor of the third turn. Can you explain it to us?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, Allison, you found comfort in the metaphor of the third turn. Can you explain it to us?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Allison Aubrey:\u003c/strong> Sure. Well, I grew up in Kentucky, in Louisville. And when I was a kid, I went to Churchill Downs, which is the home of the Kentucky Derby. And when I was about 13 years old, I watched the race. And a horse that was in the back of the pack for much of the first half of the race suddenly found this surge of energy that no one was expecting. And the jockey and the horse, you know, sort of together, magically pushed through at the third turn to the front of the pack.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Allison Aubrey:\u003c/strong> Sure. Well, I grew up in Kentucky, in Louisville. And when I was a kid, I went to Churchill Downs, which is the home of the Kentucky Derby. And when I was about 13 years old, I watched the race. And a horse that was in the back of the pack for much of the first half of the race suddenly found this surge of energy that no one was expecting. And the jockey and the horse, you know, sort of together, magically pushed through at the third turn to the front of the pack.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And later, my grandfather said to me, “Oh, Allison, you always watch the third turn because this is always where something unexpected happens.” And I said, “Well, why here?” And he said, “Ah, well, when you can see the home stretch, when you can see the finish line, a sense of urgency arises.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And later, my grandfather said to me, “Oh, Allison, you always watch the third turn because this is always where something unexpected happens.” And I said, “Well, why here?” And he said, “Ah, well, when you can see the home stretch, when you can see the finish line, a sense of urgency arises.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, when I was 13, that did not settle in as a midlife metaphor, but I did remember it. And much decades later, it did strike me as this perfect metaphor because if you think about it, there are going to be 3.7 million centenarians walking this globe as of 2050, which means obviously not all of us are going to make it to 100, but at a time when it is possible to make it to 100 or beyond, 50 is the start of midlife.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now, when I was 13, that did not settle in as a midlife metaphor, but I did remember it. And much decades later, it did strike me as this perfect metaphor because if you think about it, there are going to be 3.7 million centenarians walking this globe as of 2050, which means obviously not all of us are going to make it to 100, but at a time when it is possible to make it to 100 or beyond, 50 is the start of midlife.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I call this quarter, kind of 50 to 75, the third turn or the third quarter, if you will. Hopefully we all have decades ahead. But there is an urgency, right? It’s a, if not now, when kind of feeling. You know, you gotta — if you want a next chapter, the time to start thinking about it is now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I call this quarter, kind of 50 to 75, the third turn or the third quarter, if you will. Hopefully we all have decades ahead. But there is an urgency, right? It’s a, if not now, when kind of feeling. You know, you gotta — if you want a next chapter, the time to start thinking about it is now.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, it really made you realize that this stage could be more and could probably come with incredible rewards, too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, it really made you realize that this stage could be more and could probably come with incredible rewards, too.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Allison Aubrey:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. I think that, you know, the narrative that we’re handed societally is that we are, you know, particularly for women, in this kind of slow fade. You know, like, we’ve had the accolades, we’ve had the kids, and society does not expect much of us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Wednesday, August 19, 2026 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>After years of chasing news stories and crashing on deadlines, NPR health and science correspondent Allison Aubrey began to reconsider what she wanted out of her life. Aubrey argues that this is a feeling that many women over 50 face, as they search for meaning beyond career achievement and parenting. In her new book, “Your Turn: How to Create a Midlife You Love,” Aubrey reveals steps for building a happier, healthier midlife. She tells the stories of women who are redefining their lives and joins us to share her own journey toward new meaning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Allison Aubrey,\u003c/strong> health and science correspondent, NPR News; creator of the “How to Thrive as You Age” project; author of “Your Turn: How to Create a Midlife You Love”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. You’ve likely heard NPR Health and Science correspondent Allison Aubrey’s award-winning stories on consumer health and wellness, aging and food. Now Aubrey is out with a book about finding meaning beyond career achievement and parenting. Aubrey is approaching an empty nest with two sons in their twenties and a daughter in high school. Her book is called \u003cem>Your Turn: How to Create a Midlife You Love\u003c/em>. And, listeners, how did midlife hit you? Or, if you’re not there yet, what do you hope this period will be? Allison, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Allison Aubrey:\u003c/strong> Oh, it’s so wonderful to be here. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Great to have you. So your book, it is both a how-to guide, but also a very personal reflection of how destabilizing initially midlife felt for you. And I did wonder what it was like as a journalist to be so open about your personal life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Allison Aubrey:\u003c/strong> Yes, well, there is a bit of memoir in here. I have to tell you, in the first process of writing the book, I was writing some early chapters and I would send them off to my editor, and she’d write back, “Too much like an NPR story. Need more of you.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so literally, like anything else in life, the more you try it, the more it’s like building a muscle. So, like, bit by bit, by bit, I was saying a little bit more about me. So yeah, there’s a little memoir in here, but mostly it’s a guide for you, the reader.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, yeah. I just — so many women I know who go into journalism, they do it because they’re more comfortable telling other people’s stories.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Allison Aubrey:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. I have been telling other people’s stories for 25 years, so putting myself into the middle of it, it was something completely new.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think I kind of stepped into that very early on. About two years ago, I started a series called “How to Thrive as You Age.” And as part of that, I did a story about the Potocsnak Longevity Institute at Northwestern University. And I was pitched the story as an exclusive, and of course, as a journalist, and someone’s giving you the story, and no one else, you kind of think, oh yeah, I want to do that story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, you know, I find myself in Chicago at the Potocsnak Institute. I’m rolling my sleeve up in the name of science and the name of a good story. And the whole point of the research at the institute, at least for their first study, is to help discern a person’s biological age, which is your personal rate of aging, like indexed against your peers, compared to your chronological age, which is the number of candles on your birthday cake, like the number of years you’ve actually been alive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I thought, like, oh yeah, I’m gung-ho. This is a cool story, cool science. And I kind of unwittingly put myself right into the middle of that, into, like, a daylong series of tests where I learned a whole lot about myself that I wasn’t expecting to learn.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think really the book started that day because I was thinking to myself, Allison, you’re not just reporting on aging, you are aging. And if you’re going to do this well, you’re going to have to slow down a bit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, it’s so true. At this stage, we are going through so many physical changes, and there were also a lot of other signs for you that you did need to take a turn for yourself. For example, you know, you share you had the nickname Smiley, but you didn’t feel so smiley anymore.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Allison Aubrey:\u003c/strong> That was just an outward expression. And yes, I mean, early in my life and career, I would call myself a joyful sort of upbeat person, but yeah, there was a time when I really felt like I was running to stand still, sort of coming out of the pandemic, where we here on the Science Desk were reporting often until 10, 11 o’clock at night, waking up to do Up First at five o’clock in the morning. And that went on and on and on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I think I was burned out without realizing it. And part of those tests at the Potocsnak Institute, I mean, a couple of them. For instance, one, they strapped this device on me to read all the electrical signals of my heart over a kind of period of time. And they picked up some little irregularities. And when they gave me the news, I was super freaked out. And they’re like, no, don’t worry. This isn’t like AFib. This is kind of lifestyle-related. It’s sort of like being over-caffeinated, being always on, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And interestingly, by cutting caffeine in half and finding more time for meditation, those irregularities actually went away. So yeah, I mean, why it took the health reporter 25 years to figure out that I was subject to the same things that I’d been reporting on, that stress can really run us down and that burnout can make us feel like we are running to stand still. I certainly felt that moment, and that’s when I decided, you know what, I’m going to write this book. And it entailed taking a sabbatical, sort of leaving the newsroom and going on what I called a curiosity tour.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I was really struck by the line where you say you knew you needed to do something different. You said, “I felt stuck between feeling that it was time for something new and not knowing how to find that something.” Did some of the thrill and excitement of your job wane as well?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Allison Aubrey:\u003c/strong> You know, I really think that I have gotten to a point where what I do is very well practiced, and there’s an upside to that, right? It’s wonderful to feel competent in life and to have something that you love to do, that you’re paid to do. I love to say that my job has sort of given me three graduate degrees and I’ve been paid to do it. So I’m, you know, super appreciative and thankful for the career that I’ve had up until this point.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I also think that at this age, I really started to feel like most of what I know wasn’t getting on the air. When you learn a whole lot of things and then you’re very well practiced in reducing it and marinating it to its pithiest form, say, a 2:45 soundbite, that’s a service to the listener. So there’s nothing wrong with that. But it also leaves on the table a lot of the things that I know.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I would say that the transition I’ve made in my own head is that I revere science. It’s what I’ve been doing for the last 25 years. I love the idea you can use the scientific method to ask questions and answer them. But when I looked in the mirror at midlife, I realized a lot of the questions I was asking myself were questions of the heart. They weren’t questions that the scientific process could necessarily answer. And so I needed to take time to explore that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you do share this really touching moment of crying in your son’s empty bedroom after he left for college. And it wasn’t just about missing him, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Allison Aubrey:\u003c/strong> No, it’s about shifting identities, right? You know, I mean, I think that when our children are going through adolescence, they’re asking three basic questions, which is, you know, who am I, what’s happening to my body with everything shifting at once, and what is my purpose?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it kind of mirrors those Erik Erikson steps, you know? Erik Erikson said the question is, what is generativity, which was his word for purpose.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What I have realized and come to see through my own children and launching them is that as they have been in this process of finding themselves in these teenage years, you know, we have words for that in our everyday nomenclature. We say that there’s teenage rebellion. We call things hormones, right? And we make room for our teenagers to explore who they are.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When my own daughter kind of started her transition into adolescence, she’s 15 now. You know, she was doing what teenagers do, kind of pushing me away. And while that hurts or stings in the moment, she’s doing exactly the thing that she’s supposed to be doing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And as she was that, sort of giving me these angsty vibes and sort of putting me over here to the side, I realized something. Oh, my gosh, like, I’m going through the same thing. I was almost like a mirror reflection. I was thinking, I’m asking myself those same questions, right? Like, who am I now if my life isn’t completely defined by mothering and journalism and, like, what’s happening to my body? And what is my purpose now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And these are hard questions to ask, but I have found that the people who ask them tend to do best in terms of embracing a next chapter, in terms of leaving something behind to start something new. And that is what is required if you want to make a midlife pivot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to invite listeners into the conversation. Does Allison’s story of entering midlife resonate with you? Have you struggled to know who you are outside of work or family? Did you find new happiness or meaning in midlife? And, of course, what do you want to ask or tell Allison if you’re familiar with her reporting?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can email \u003ca href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram at KQED Forum, or you can call us at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, Allison, you found comfort in the metaphor of the third turn. Can you explain it to us?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Allison Aubrey:\u003c/strong> Sure. Well, I grew up in Kentucky, in Louisville. And when I was a kid, I went to Churchill Downs, which is the home of the Kentucky Derby. And when I was about 13 years old, I watched the race. And a horse that was in the back of the pack for much of the first half of the race suddenly found this surge of energy that no one was expecting. And the jockey and the horse, you know, sort of together, magically pushed through at the third turn to the front of the pack.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And later, my grandfather said to me, “Oh, Allison, you always watch the third turn because this is always where something unexpected happens.” And I said, “Well, why here?” And he said, “Ah, well, when you can see the home stretch, when you can see the finish line, a sense of urgency arises.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, when I was 13, that did not settle in as a midlife metaphor, but I did remember it. And much decades later, it did strike me as this perfect metaphor because if you think about it, there are going to be 3.7 million centenarians walking this globe as of 2050, which means obviously not all of us are going to make it to 100, but at a time when it is possible to make it to 100 or beyond, 50 is the start of midlife.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I call this quarter, kind of 50 to 75, the third turn or the third quarter, if you will. Hopefully we all have decades ahead. But there is an urgency, right? It’s a, if not now, when kind of feeling. You know, you gotta — if you want a next chapter, the time to start thinking about it is now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, it really made you realize that this stage could be more and could probably come with incredible rewards, too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Allison Aubrey:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. I think that, you know, the narrative that we’re handed societally is that we are, you know, particularly for women, in this kind of slow fade. You know, like, we’ve had the accolades, we’ve had the kids, and society does not expect much of us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m a Gen X woman, and I kind of feel like the script that we were handed is something like, you know, life in three chapters: learn, earn, retire. And the word retire drives me crazy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I don’t dislike the concept. I think a lot of people are eager to get to the point of life where they don’t have to show up to a job every day. And that’s wonderful. But the term retirement, I mean, just listen: retirement, the word tired is right there in the middle of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I know people 10, 20, 30 years older than me who are not tired. My own mother is 82, very vibrant. I do not look forward to just being tired.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so I was really thinking, like, how do we reframe? 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"content": "\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Thursday, August 13, 2026 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the aftermath of the 2012 Sandy Hook mass school shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, rightwing commentator Alex Jones peddled bogus conspiracy theories about the tragedy. The Sandy Hook families sued Jones for defamation and emotional distress, and in 2025 a court ordered Jones to pay them nearly $1.5 billion. Jones filed for bankruptcy, and as a court began to sort through his assets, the new owners of parody newspaper The Onion stepped in to take over his far-right platform, Infowars. We’ll talk to Ben Collins, CEO of The Onion, about the acquisition and what he plans to do with a “new” Infowars.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins\u003c/strong>, CEO, The Onion; former senior reporter, NBC News; former senior editor, The Daily Beast\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. You may have already seen last month The Onion’s launch of its parody of Alex Jones’ conspiracy-riddled platform, Infowars.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tim Heidecker (clip):\u003c/strong> Hi, everybody. Welcome to the new Infowars. I’m your host, Tim Heidecker. We have officially taken over Infowars now. We are in charge of Infowars. This is a new dawn, a new era. We’re turning the page and we’re forgetting the past, but we must always remember the past leads us towards the future.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So here, we learn what the new dawn, new era of Infowars under The Onion will actually look like. What it means that a disinformation platform infamous for Alex Jones calling the 2012 murders at Sandy Hook Elementary a hoax is now under the leadership of a satirical news outfit famous for its mass-shooting headline, “No Way to Prevent This, Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m joined now by the CEO of The Onion, Ben Collins. Ben, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Really glad to have you on. Well, before this acquisition by The Onion of Infowars, you had covered Alex Jones as a journalist, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I covered the rise of all these grifters sort of taking over our government and world. I was a disinformation and extremism reporter. I beat on the night of the 2016 election to watch Infowars and call people about what they were saying. Roger Stone was on there completely unfazed and being like, “Yeah, we’re about to take over.” And Alex Jones was shocked that they had won.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you’re going to remember that Alex Jones once had Donald Trump on his podcast, and Donald Trump said, “I will never let you down,” to Alex Jones. Now, obviously, that has fallen apart since then, but that’s what I used to cover: how these people turned America’s tragedies into power and, in Alex Jones’ case, for a very long time, a lot of money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Talk about how Alex Jones operates and the impact his conspiracy theories can have.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> Sure. So the way he operates, in terms of making money, is pretty simple. You take the most recent tragedy that took place, say the opposite happens and the government is responsible for it. The only way to protect yourself is to take these iodine pills or, you know, these boner pills or something, and everything will get fixed. And you buy them at a subscription rate, and he makes millions of dollars. And it worked for a long time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But he honestly kind of came up against his match, which is these families who had nothing left to lose. And they banded together and they said, “This is enough.” Like, only in America do you lose your child in the worst way possible, and then you have to move because you’re being taunted by a psycho trying to make money off the backs of them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, frankly, they are American heroes, the Sandy Hook families. I’m so glad that we are finally getting this, at least the Infowars name taken away from him, but eventually he’ll have to pay up for real.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the anguish that Alex Jones’ conspiracy about Sandy Hook and the harassment campaign, as you say, that it created for the families — that really had a profound effect on you, didn’t it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> Yeah. You know, my friend’s girlfriend was shot and killed on live TV. That’s how I got into this beat and all. Her name is Alison Parker. She was a news anchor, and she was killed in Roanoke, Virginia. And her killer live-streamed it on Facebook Live. This was in 2015.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And now so much of that is sort of de rigueur in American life, where people are live-streaming mass murder, whatever. But it wasn’t at the time, and it really did affect me. And I think it affected a lot of people. Like, once you know somebody, it’s pretty rough. You can’t let go of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I just didn’t want — I don’t know, in this case, he was kind of going to get away with it. He was just going to get in for his back for nothing and just move on. And we just decided that, after all of that these people went through, I think they deserved to win, and this — we’re providing that win right now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. Jones was ordered to pay more than a billion and a half, or almost a billion and a half dollars, to the Sandy Hook families for the defamation and distress. And he basically said he was never going to pay it. So when the opportunity to take over Infowars and to take it away from Alex Jones came, you took it. But I understand you sought the family’s blessing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> Oh, yeah. You don’t want to make a joke out of something without their permission. You know, I met several of them in the past through my work, and I talked to them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The thing that people forget about victims of mass shootings and victims of a lot of stuff in America that shouldn’t be happening is that they are people, and they have senses of humor. And they, you know, they want things to move forward. And they want to live big lives.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I want to make sure that they’re okay with it. But I also wanted to let them know, like, this could be fun. Like, this could give you some amount of justice. And also, you know, you get to call a celebrity and give them little notes about how that guy’s voice sounds. So that’s what happened with Tim. And unfortunately, it’s a little bit too good.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Actually, we have a clip of an example of Tim, you know, doing exactly what you say, which is that Jones would peddle conspiracy theories and then he would create, you know, like a supplement or a cure or a process to be able to solve the issue that he’s creating the fear about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So let’s hear a clip of Tim Heidecker — and I feel like I have to possibly say it’s Tim Heidecker impersonating Jones because he sounds so much like him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tim Heidecker (clip):\u003c/strong> We now have a scientific, technological system by which we can take your urine and ship it to us, and we’ll be able to turn — extract the gold minerals. And as you know, our body is made up of many minerals and salt and different minerals, including gold.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So you say this is an opportunity to have a little fun and also a little justice for the families. Talk more about the justice part. What is the justice?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> We’ve been able to take this thing and just sort of lay bare what this whole ruse is, which is, you know, you get people really scared. And then once you get them scared, you can convince them of pretty much anything. And, you know, Alex used it to sell supplements, but he also used it to tell everybody that pretty much every mass shooting in American life didn’t actually happen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And what comes with that is two things, right? It comes with a lot of power. Like, you get to meet the president, you get to be friends with him, all this stuff, which is what Alex wants. But it also makes you miserable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And deep down, Alex is a miserable guy. That’s what we want to outline here with this show. You see Tim’s version of Alex — you know, he loses his horse, Horace, the only thing he cares about, in his divorce. And his ex-wife calls in and yells at him and tells him how big of a coward and idiot he is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, it’s a big character study in, like, you can go down this path. You can make a lot of money in being a ruthless idiot. But also, you’re a pathetic psycho. And that’s what we were able to tell the first six weeks of Infowars so far.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Tim did, in fact, die in the last episode by taking too much of his laxative supplement, but I won’t give too much away to the people who are watching.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, let me invite the listeners into the conversation. Listeners, are you an Onion reader? And if so, why? Do you have a favorite piece or headline from The Onion? What do you hope to see on The Onion’s version of Infowars?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can tell us by emailing \u003ca>forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, finding us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at @KQEDForum, or by calling 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, of course, if you have any questions or want to tell Ben anything, the CEO of The Onion, feel free to call to do that as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This listener on Bluesky writes, “I’ve been aware of Infowars for many years. It is one of the original fake news websites, no more credible than the Weekly World News. What it had in common with The Onion was that stories in neither were believable.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I do want to ask you about, like, why does Infowars fit well with The Onion?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> It allows us to go after a kind of omnipresent media that is, frankly, beneath The Onion itself. Like, The Onion, we’re allowed to, you know, we have to look like The New York Times. We have to go after absurdity from the lens of, like, the most — almost like lunatic officialdom, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is the opposite, right? There is a target there that would be beneath The New York Times to talk about or something like that, and we need to — they are everywhere, and we still need to talk about them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that’s a big thing that we talked about, is how, for example, how could we go after trad wives? Like these people who are sort of these women who are giving away all of their rights to fit in in right-wing culture.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in Episode 4 of Infowars, on the Haggerty Show, which is the other show on Infowars so far, we had a trad wife on who locked herself in a cage and pissed at people because that’s what she was told to do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, like, that is, in fact, beneath The Onion. It is not beneath Infowars. Like, the thing that’s beneath Infowars is, like, the top of a sewer. We can’t degrade it any further than it already has been.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And the value of that — I’m sorry, just what would you say that is?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> Oh, we’ve got to do it. Yeah. Like, this many people being this crazy from the algorithm and not making fun of them at a professional level — like, we’ve made it 10 years without that. We need the pros to go after these people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that’s what the point of Infowars was: to get the world’s best satirists on this, between The Onion and Tim, to take a crack at these folks and really do full-on studies. And the Haggerty Show is about making composite characters of these folks today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s a guy on tonight’s episode of Infowars, anywhere you want to watch it, 5 p.m. Pacific on YouTube specifically, if you want to go there. Right? It airs Thursdays.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> There is a guy, for example, who thinks he can live forever. And I think we’ve seen that guy out in 50 trend stories in the world. You’re not going to believe this, but he cannot, and you should watch to find out how he loses the battle.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. The world’s death rate is steady at 100%. Yeah. But I guess also what I like is the point that you make that you’re not necessarily going after the people, but you’re going after the ill that the people are embodying, essentially.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, the reason Tim died is because, like, Alex Jones is kind of a one-note guy. He’s kind of boring. But the larger sickness here is pretty pervasive. And we have to make fun of all those things that have popped up in American life. And there’s unfortunately a wealth of it right now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But it is — it’s very commercialized. It’s a very lucrative business to convince people that they are, you know, they’re one pill away or they’re one Zoom class away from fixing all the problems in their life. When, in reality, it’s a lot more complicated than that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, let me play a little bit from your very first show that aired on July 2nd. This is basically the, you know, summary of what Infowars will be.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip:\u003c/strong> The government, politicians, the media — they’re silencing the truth. Because the truth is dangerous. They don’t want their secrets revealed. This is exactly the kind of conversation they don’t want us to have. We could be killed. Or worse.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> More on The Onion’s recent takeover of Infowars with CEO of The Onion, Ben Collins. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In the aftermath of the 2012 Sandy Hook mass school shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, rightwing commentator Alex Jones peddled bogus conspiracy theories about the tragedy. The Sandy Hook families sued Jones for defamation and emotional distress, and in 2025 a court ordered Jones to pay them nearly $1.5 billion. Jones filed for bankruptcy, and as a court began to sort through his assets, the new owners of parody newspaper The Onion stepped in to take over his far-right platform, Infowars. We’ll talk to Ben Collins, CEO of The Onion, about the acquisition and what he plans to do with a “new” Infowars.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. You may have already seen last month The Onion’s launch of its parody of Alex Jones’ conspiracy-riddled platform, Infowars.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tim Heidecker (clip):\u003c/strong> Hi, everybody. Welcome to the new Infowars. I’m your host, Tim Heidecker. We have officially taken over Infowars now. We are in charge of Infowars. This is a new dawn, a new era. We’re turning the page and we’re forgetting the past, but we must always remember the past leads us towards the future.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So here, we learn what the new dawn, new era of Infowars under The Onion will actually look like. What it means that a disinformation platform infamous for Alex Jones calling the 2012 murders at Sandy Hook Elementary a hoax is now under the leadership of a satirical news outfit famous for its mass-shooting headline, “No Way to Prevent This, Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m joined now by the CEO of The Onion, Ben Collins. Ben, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Really glad to have you on. Well, before this acquisition by The Onion of Infowars, you had covered Alex Jones as a journalist, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I covered the rise of all these grifters sort of taking over our government and world. I was a disinformation and extremism reporter. I beat on the night of the 2016 election to watch Infowars and call people about what they were saying. Roger Stone was on there completely unfazed and being like, “Yeah, we’re about to take over.” And Alex Jones was shocked that they had won.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I covered the rise of all these grifters sort of taking over our government and world. I was a disinformation and extremism reporter. I beat on the night of the 2016 election to watch Infowars and call people about what they were saying. Roger Stone was on there completely unfazed and being like, “Yeah, we’re about to take over.” And Alex Jones was shocked that they had won.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And you’re going to remember that Alex Jones once had Donald Trump on his podcast, and Donald Trump said, “I will never let you down,” to Alex Jones. Now, obviously, that has fallen apart since then, but that’s what I used to cover: how these people turned America’s tragedies into power and, in Alex Jones’ case, for a very long time, a lot of money.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Talk about how Alex Jones operates and the impact his conspiracy theories can have.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> Sure. So the way he operates, in terms of making money, is pretty simple. You take the most recent tragedy that took place, say the opposite happens and the government is responsible for it. The only way to protect yourself is to take these iodine pills or, you know, these boner pills or something, and everything will get fixed. And you buy them at a subscription rate, and he makes millions of dollars. And it worked for a long time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> Sure. So the way he operates, in terms of making money, is pretty simple. You take the most recent tragedy that took place, say the opposite happens and the government is responsible for it. The only way to protect yourself is to take these iodine pills or, you know, these boner pills or something, and everything will get fixed. And you buy them at a subscription rate, and he makes millions of dollars. And it worked for a long time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But he honestly kind of came up against his match, which is these families who had nothing left to lose. And they banded together and they said, “This is enough.” Like, only in America do you lose your child in the worst way possible, and then you have to move because you’re being taunted by a psycho trying to make money off the backs of them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, frankly, they are American heroes, the Sandy Hook families. I’m so glad that we are finally getting this, at least the Infowars name taken away from him, but eventually he’ll have to pay up for real.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the anguish that Alex Jones’ conspiracy about Sandy Hook and the harassment campaign, as you say, that it created for the families — that really had a profound effect on you, didn’t it?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the anguish that Alex Jones’ conspiracy about Sandy Hook and the harassment campaign, as you say, that it created for the families — that really had a profound effect on you, didn’t it?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> Yeah. You know, my friend’s girlfriend was shot and killed on live TV. That’s how I got into this beat and all. Her name is Alison Parker. She was a news anchor, and she was killed in Roanoke, Virginia. And her killer live-streamed it on Facebook Live. This was in 2015.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> Yeah. You know, my friend’s girlfriend was shot and killed on live TV. That’s how I got into this beat and all. Her name is Alison Parker. She was a news anchor, and she was killed in Roanoke, Virginia. And her killer live-streamed it on Facebook Live. This was in 2015.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And now so much of that is sort of de rigueur in American life, where people are live-streaming mass murder, whatever. But it wasn’t at the time, and it really did affect me. And I think it affected a lot of people. Like, once you know somebody, it’s pretty rough. You can’t let go of it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And now so much of that is sort of de rigueur in American life, where people are live-streaming mass murder, whatever. But it wasn’t at the time, and it really did affect me. And I think it affected a lot of people. Like, once you know somebody, it’s pretty rough. You can’t let go of it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I just didn’t want — I don’t know, in this case, he was kind of going to get away with it. He was just going to get in for his back for nothing and just move on. And we just decided that, after all of that these people went through, I think they deserved to win, and this — we’re providing that win right now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I just didn’t want — I don’t know, in this case, he was kind of going to get away with it. He was just going to get in for his back for nothing and just move on. And we just decided that, after all of that these people went through, I think they deserved to win, and this — we’re providing that win right now.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. Jones was ordered to pay more than a billion and a half, or almost a billion and a half dollars, to the Sandy Hook families for the defamation and distress. And he basically said he was never going to pay it. So when the opportunity to take over Infowars and to take it away from Alex Jones came, you took it. But I understand you sought the family’s blessing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. Jones was ordered to pay more than a billion and a half, or almost a billion and a half dollars, to the Sandy Hook families for the defamation and distress. And he basically said he was never going to pay it. So when the opportunity to take over Infowars and to take it away from Alex Jones came, you took it. But I understand you sought the family’s blessing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> Oh, yeah. You don’t want to make a joke out of something without their permission. You know, I met several of them in the past through my work, and I talked to them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> Oh, yeah. You don’t want to make a joke out of something without their permission. You know, I met several of them in the past through my work, and I talked to them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The thing that people forget about victims of mass shootings and victims of a lot of stuff in America that shouldn’t be happening is that they are people, and they have senses of humor. And they, you know, they want things to move forward. And they want to live big lives.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The thing that people forget about victims of mass shootings and victims of a lot of stuff in America that shouldn’t be happening is that they are people, and they have senses of humor. And they, you know, they want things to move forward. And they want to live big lives.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I want to make sure that they’re okay with it. But I also wanted to let them know, like, this could be fun. Like, this could give you some amount of justice. And also, you know, you get to call a celebrity and give them little notes about how that guy’s voice sounds. So that’s what happened with Tim. And unfortunately, it’s a little bit too good.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I want to make sure that they’re okay with it. But I also wanted to let them know, like, this could be fun. Like, this could give you some amount of justice. And also, you know, you get to call a celebrity and give them little notes about how that guy’s voice sounds. So that’s what happened with Tim. And unfortunately, it’s a little bit too good.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Actually, we have a clip of an example of Tim, you know, doing exactly what you say, which is that Jones would peddle conspiracy theories and then he would create, you know, like a supplement or a cure or a process to be able to solve the issue that he’s creating the fear about.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Actually, we have a clip of an example of Tim, you know, doing exactly what you say, which is that Jones would peddle conspiracy theories and then he would create, you know, like a supplement or a cure or a process to be able to solve the issue that he’s creating the fear about.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So let’s hear a clip of Tim Heidecker — and I feel like I have to possibly say it’s Tim Heidecker impersonating Jones because he sounds so much like him.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So let’s hear a clip of Tim Heidecker — and I feel like I have to possibly say it’s Tim Heidecker impersonating Jones because he sounds so much like him.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tim Heidecker (clip):\u003c/strong> We now have a scientific, technological system by which we can take your urine and ship it to us, and we’ll be able to turn — extract the gold minerals. And as you know, our body is made up of many minerals and salt and different minerals, including gold.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tim Heidecker (clip):\u003c/strong> We now have a scientific, technological system by which we can take your urine and ship it to us, and we’ll be able to turn — extract the gold minerals. And as you know, our body is made up of many minerals and salt and different minerals, including gold.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So you say this is an opportunity to have a little fun and also a little justice for the families. Talk more about the justice part. What is the justice?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So you say this is an opportunity to have a little fun and also a little justice for the families. Talk more about the justice part. What is the justice?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> We’ve been able to take this thing and just sort of lay bare what this whole ruse is, which is, you know, you get people really scared. And then once you get them scared, you can convince them of pretty much anything. And, you know, Alex used it to sell supplements, but he also used it to tell everybody that pretty much every mass shooting in American life didn’t actually happen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> We’ve been able to take this thing and just sort of lay bare what this whole ruse is, which is, you know, you get people really scared. And then once you get them scared, you can convince them of pretty much anything. And, you know, Alex used it to sell supplements, but he also used it to tell everybody that pretty much every mass shooting in American life didn’t actually happen.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And what comes with that is two things, right? It comes with a lot of power. Like, you get to meet the president, you get to be friends with him, all this stuff, which is what Alex wants. But it also makes you miserable.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And what comes with that is two things, right? It comes with a lot of power. Like, you get to meet the president, you get to be friends with him, all this stuff, which is what Alex wants. But it also makes you miserable.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And deep down, Alex is a miserable guy. That’s what we want to outline here with this show. You see Tim’s version of Alex — you know, he loses his horse, Horace, the only thing he cares about, in his divorce. And his ex-wife calls in and yells at him and tells him how big of a coward and idiot he is.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And deep down, Alex is a miserable guy. That’s what we want to outline here with this show. You see Tim’s version of Alex — you know, he loses his horse, Horace, the only thing he cares about, in his divorce. And his ex-wife calls in and yells at him and tells him how big of a coward and idiot he is.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Like, it’s a big character study in, like, you can go down this path. You can make a lot of money in being a ruthless idiot. But also, you’re a pathetic psycho. And that’s what we were able to tell the first six weeks of Infowars so far.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Like, it’s a big character study in, like, you can go down this path. You can make a lot of money in being a ruthless idiot. But also, you’re a pathetic psycho. And that’s what we were able to tell the first six weeks of Infowars so far.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Tim did, in fact, die in the last episode by taking too much of his laxative supplement, but I won’t give too much away to the people who are watching.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, let me invite the listeners into the conversation. Listeners, are you an Onion reader? And if so, why? Do you have a favorite piece or headline from The Onion? What do you hope to see on The Onion’s version of Infowars?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, let me invite the listeners into the conversation. Listeners, are you an Onion reader? And if so, why? Do you have a favorite piece or headline from The Onion? What do you hope to see on The Onion’s version of Infowars?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>You can tell us by emailing \u003ca>forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, finding us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at @KQEDForum, or by calling 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>You can tell us by emailing \u003ca>forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, finding us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at @KQEDForum, or by calling 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And, of course, if you have any questions or want to tell Ben anything, the CEO of The Onion, feel free to call to do that as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And, of course, if you have any questions or want to tell Ben anything, the CEO of The Onion, feel free to call to do that as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This listener on Bluesky writes, “I’ve been aware of Infowars for many years. It is one of the original fake news websites, no more credible than the Weekly World News. What it had in common with The Onion was that stories in neither were believable.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This listener on Bluesky writes, “I’ve been aware of Infowars for many years. It is one of the original fake news websites, no more credible than the Weekly World News. What it had in common with The Onion was that stories in neither were believable.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I do want to ask you about, like, why does Infowars fit well with The Onion?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> It allows us to go after a kind of omnipresent media that is, frankly, beneath The Onion itself. Like, The Onion, we’re allowed to, you know, we have to look like The New York Times. We have to go after absurdity from the lens of, like, the most — almost like lunatic officialdom, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> It allows us to go after a kind of omnipresent media that is, frankly, beneath The Onion itself. Like, The Onion, we’re allowed to, you know, we have to look like The New York Times. We have to go after absurdity from the lens of, like, the most — almost like lunatic officialdom, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is the opposite, right? There is a target there that would be beneath The New York Times to talk about or something like that, and we need to — they are everywhere, and we still need to talk about them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is the opposite, right? There is a target there that would be beneath The New York Times to talk about or something like that, and we need to — they are everywhere, and we still need to talk about them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So that’s a big thing that we talked about, is how, for example, how could we go after trad wives? Like these people who are sort of these women who are giving away all of their rights to fit in in right-wing culture.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So that’s a big thing that we talked about, is how, for example, how could we go after trad wives? Like these people who are sort of these women who are giving away all of their rights to fit in in right-wing culture.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And in Episode 4 of Infowars, on the Haggerty Show, which is the other show on Infowars so far, we had a trad wife on who locked herself in a cage and pissed at people because that’s what she was told to do.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And in Episode 4 of Infowars, on the Haggerty Show, which is the other show on Infowars so far, we had a trad wife on who locked herself in a cage and pissed at people because that’s what she was told to do.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, like, that is, in fact, beneath The Onion. It is not beneath Infowars. Like, the thing that’s beneath Infowars is, like, the top of a sewer. We can’t degrade it any further than it already has been.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, like, that is, in fact, beneath The Onion. It is not beneath Infowars. Like, the thing that’s beneath Infowars is, like, the top of a sewer. We can’t degrade it any further than it already has been.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And the value of that — I’m sorry, just what would you say that is?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And the value of that — I’m sorry, just what would you say that is?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> Oh, we’ve got to do it. Yeah. Like, this many people being this crazy from the algorithm and not making fun of them at a professional level — like, we’ve made it 10 years without that. We need the pros to go after these people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> Oh, we’ve got to do it. Yeah. Like, this many people being this crazy from the algorithm and not making fun of them at a professional level — like, we’ve made it 10 years without that. We need the pros to go after these people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So that’s what the point of Infowars was: to get the world’s best satirists on this, between The Onion and Tim, to take a crack at these folks and really do full-on studies. And the Haggerty Show is about making composite characters of these folks today.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So that’s what the point of Infowars was: to get the world’s best satirists on this, between The Onion and Tim, to take a crack at these folks and really do full-on studies. And the Haggerty Show is about making composite characters of these folks today.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There’s a guy on tonight’s episode of Infowars, anywhere you want to watch it, 5 p.m. Pacific on YouTube specifically, if you want to go there. Right? It airs Thursdays.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There’s a guy on tonight’s episode of Infowars, anywhere you want to watch it, 5 p.m. Pacific on YouTube specifically, if you want to go there. Right? It airs Thursdays.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s right.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s right.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> There is a guy, for example, who thinks he can live forever. And I think we’ve seen that guy out in 50 trend stories in the world. You’re not going to believe this, but he cannot, and you should watch to find out how he loses the battle.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> There is a guy, for example, who thinks he can live forever. And I think we’ve seen that guy out in 50 trend stories in the world. You’re not going to believe this, but he cannot, and you should watch to find out how he loses the battle.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. The world’s death rate is steady at 100%. Yeah. But I guess also what I like is the point that you make that you’re not necessarily going after the people, but you’re going after the ill that the people are embodying, essentially.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. The world’s death rate is steady at 100%. Yeah. But I guess also what I like is the point that you make that you’re not necessarily going after the people, but you’re going after the ill that the people are embodying, essentially.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, the reason Tim died is because, like, Alex Jones is kind of a one-note guy. He’s kind of boring. But the larger sickness here is pretty pervasive. And we have to make fun of all those things that have popped up in American life. And there’s unfortunately a wealth of it right now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, the reason Tim died is because, like, Alex Jones is kind of a one-note guy. He’s kind of boring. But the larger sickness here is pretty pervasive. And we have to make fun of all those things that have popped up in American life. And there’s unfortunately a wealth of it right now.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But it is — it’s very commercialized. It’s a very lucrative business to convince people that they are, you know, they’re one pill away or they’re one Zoom class away from fixing all the problems in their life. When, in reality, it’s a lot more complicated than that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But it is — it’s very commercialized. It’s a very lucrative business to convince people that they are, you know, they’re one pill away or they’re one Zoom class away from fixing all the problems in their life. When, in reality, it’s a lot more complicated than that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, let me play a little bit from your very first show that aired on July 2nd. This is basically the, you know, summary of what Infowars will be.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip:\u003c/strong> The government, politicians, the media — they’re silencing the truth. Because the truth is dangerous. They don’t want their secrets revealed. This is exactly the kind of conversation they don’t want us to have. We could be killed. Or worse.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> More on The Onion’s recent takeover of Infowars with CEO of The Onion, Ben Collins. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> More on The Onion’s recent takeover of Infowars with CEO of The Onion, Ben Collins. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n"
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"excerpt": "We’ll talk to Ben Collins, CEO of The Onion, about what he plans to do with a \"new\" Infowars.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Thursday, August 13, 2026 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the aftermath of the 2012 Sandy Hook mass school shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, rightwing commentator Alex Jones peddled bogus conspiracy theories about the tragedy. The Sandy Hook families sued Jones for defamation and emotional distress, and in 2025 a court ordered Jones to pay them nearly $1.5 billion. Jones filed for bankruptcy, and as a court began to sort through his assets, the new owners of parody newspaper The Onion stepped in to take over his far-right platform, Infowars. We’ll talk to Ben Collins, CEO of The Onion, about the acquisition and what he plans to do with a “new” Infowars.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins\u003c/strong>, CEO, The Onion; former senior reporter, NBC News; former senior editor, The Daily Beast\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. You may have already seen last month The Onion’s launch of its parody of Alex Jones’ conspiracy-riddled platform, Infowars.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tim Heidecker (clip):\u003c/strong> Hi, everybody. Welcome to the new Infowars. I’m your host, Tim Heidecker. We have officially taken over Infowars now. We are in charge of Infowars. This is a new dawn, a new era. We’re turning the page and we’re forgetting the past, but we must always remember the past leads us towards the future.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So here, we learn what the new dawn, new era of Infowars under The Onion will actually look like. What it means that a disinformation platform infamous for Alex Jones calling the 2012 murders at Sandy Hook Elementary a hoax is now under the leadership of a satirical news outfit famous for its mass-shooting headline, “No Way to Prevent This, Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m joined now by the CEO of The Onion, Ben Collins. Ben, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Really glad to have you on. Well, before this acquisition by The Onion of Infowars, you had covered Alex Jones as a journalist, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I covered the rise of all these grifters sort of taking over our government and world. I was a disinformation and extremism reporter. I beat on the night of the 2016 election to watch Infowars and call people about what they were saying. Roger Stone was on there completely unfazed and being like, “Yeah, we’re about to take over.” And Alex Jones was shocked that they had won.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And you’re going to remember that Alex Jones once had Donald Trump on his podcast, and Donald Trump said, “I will never let you down,” to Alex Jones. Now, obviously, that has fallen apart since then, but that’s what I used to cover: how these people turned America’s tragedies into power and, in Alex Jones’ case, for a very long time, a lot of money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Talk about how Alex Jones operates and the impact his conspiracy theories can have.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> Sure. So the way he operates, in terms of making money, is pretty simple. You take the most recent tragedy that took place, say the opposite happens and the government is responsible for it. The only way to protect yourself is to take these iodine pills or, you know, these boner pills or something, and everything will get fixed. And you buy them at a subscription rate, and he makes millions of dollars. And it worked for a long time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But he honestly kind of came up against his match, which is these families who had nothing left to lose. And they banded together and they said, “This is enough.” Like, only in America do you lose your child in the worst way possible, and then you have to move because you’re being taunted by a psycho trying to make money off the backs of them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, frankly, they are American heroes, the Sandy Hook families. I’m so glad that we are finally getting this, at least the Infowars name taken away from him, but eventually he’ll have to pay up for real.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, the anguish that Alex Jones’ conspiracy about Sandy Hook and the harassment campaign, as you say, that it created for the families — that really had a profound effect on you, didn’t it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> Yeah. You know, my friend’s girlfriend was shot and killed on live TV. That’s how I got into this beat and all. Her name is Alison Parker. She was a news anchor, and she was killed in Roanoke, Virginia. And her killer live-streamed it on Facebook Live. This was in 2015.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And now so much of that is sort of de rigueur in American life, where people are live-streaming mass murder, whatever. But it wasn’t at the time, and it really did affect me. And I think it affected a lot of people. Like, once you know somebody, it’s pretty rough. You can’t let go of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I just didn’t want — I don’t know, in this case, he was kind of going to get away with it. He was just going to get in for his back for nothing and just move on. And we just decided that, after all of that these people went through, I think they deserved to win, and this — we’re providing that win right now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. Jones was ordered to pay more than a billion and a half, or almost a billion and a half dollars, to the Sandy Hook families for the defamation and distress. And he basically said he was never going to pay it. So when the opportunity to take over Infowars and to take it away from Alex Jones came, you took it. But I understand you sought the family’s blessing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> Oh, yeah. You don’t want to make a joke out of something without their permission. You know, I met several of them in the past through my work, and I talked to them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The thing that people forget about victims of mass shootings and victims of a lot of stuff in America that shouldn’t be happening is that they are people, and they have senses of humor. And they, you know, they want things to move forward. And they want to live big lives.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I want to make sure that they’re okay with it. But I also wanted to let them know, like, this could be fun. Like, this could give you some amount of justice. And also, you know, you get to call a celebrity and give them little notes about how that guy’s voice sounds. So that’s what happened with Tim. And unfortunately, it’s a little bit too good.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Actually, we have a clip of an example of Tim, you know, doing exactly what you say, which is that Jones would peddle conspiracy theories and then he would create, you know, like a supplement or a cure or a process to be able to solve the issue that he’s creating the fear about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So let’s hear a clip of Tim Heidecker — and I feel like I have to possibly say it’s Tim Heidecker impersonating Jones because he sounds so much like him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tim Heidecker (clip):\u003c/strong> We now have a scientific, technological system by which we can take your urine and ship it to us, and we’ll be able to turn — extract the gold minerals. And as you know, our body is made up of many minerals and salt and different minerals, including gold.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So you say this is an opportunity to have a little fun and also a little justice for the families. Talk more about the justice part. What is the justice?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> We’ve been able to take this thing and just sort of lay bare what this whole ruse is, which is, you know, you get people really scared. And then once you get them scared, you can convince them of pretty much anything. And, you know, Alex used it to sell supplements, but he also used it to tell everybody that pretty much every mass shooting in American life didn’t actually happen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And what comes with that is two things, right? It comes with a lot of power. Like, you get to meet the president, you get to be friends with him, all this stuff, which is what Alex wants. But it also makes you miserable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And deep down, Alex is a miserable guy. That’s what we want to outline here with this show. You see Tim’s version of Alex — you know, he loses his horse, Horace, the only thing he cares about, in his divorce. And his ex-wife calls in and yells at him and tells him how big of a coward and idiot he is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like, it’s a big character study in, like, you can go down this path. You can make a lot of money in being a ruthless idiot. But also, you’re a pathetic psycho. And that’s what we were able to tell the first six weeks of Infowars so far.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Tim did, in fact, die in the last episode by taking too much of his laxative supplement, but I won’t give too much away to the people who are watching.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, let me invite the listeners into the conversation. Listeners, are you an Onion reader? And if so, why? Do you have a favorite piece or headline from The Onion? What do you hope to see on The Onion’s version of Infowars?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>You can tell us by emailing \u003ca>forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, finding us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at @KQEDForum, or by calling 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And, of course, if you have any questions or want to tell Ben anything, the CEO of The Onion, feel free to call to do that as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This listener on Bluesky writes, “I’ve been aware of Infowars for many years. It is one of the original fake news websites, no more credible than the Weekly World News. What it had in common with The Onion was that stories in neither were believable.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I do want to ask you about, like, why does Infowars fit well with The Onion?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> It allows us to go after a kind of omnipresent media that is, frankly, beneath The Onion itself. Like, The Onion, we’re allowed to, you know, we have to look like The New York Times. We have to go after absurdity from the lens of, like, the most — almost like lunatic officialdom, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is the opposite, right? There is a target there that would be beneath The New York Times to talk about or something like that, and we need to — they are everywhere, and we still need to talk about them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that’s a big thing that we talked about, is how, for example, how could we go after trad wives? Like these people who are sort of these women who are giving away all of their rights to fit in in right-wing culture.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in Episode 4 of Infowars, on the Haggerty Show, which is the other show on Infowars so far, we had a trad wife on who locked herself in a cage and pissed at people because that’s what she was told to do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, like, that is, in fact, beneath The Onion. It is not beneath Infowars. Like, the thing that’s beneath Infowars is, like, the top of a sewer. We can’t degrade it any further than it already has been.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And the value of that — I’m sorry, just what would you say that is?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> Oh, we’ve got to do it. Yeah. Like, this many people being this crazy from the algorithm and not making fun of them at a professional level — like, we’ve made it 10 years without that. We need the pros to go after these people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that’s what the point of Infowars was: to get the world’s best satirists on this, between The Onion and Tim, to take a crack at these folks and really do full-on studies. And the Haggerty Show is about making composite characters of these folks today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s a guy on tonight’s episode of Infowars, anywhere you want to watch it, 5 p.m. Pacific on YouTube specifically, if you want to go there. Right? It airs Thursdays.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> There is a guy, for example, who thinks he can live forever. And I think we’ve seen that guy out in 50 trend stories in the world. You’re not going to believe this, but he cannot, and you should watch to find out how he loses the battle.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. The world’s death rate is steady at 100%. Yeah. But I guess also what I like is the point that you make that you’re not necessarily going after the people, but you’re going after the ill that the people are embodying, essentially.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ben Collins:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, the reason Tim died is because, like, Alex Jones is kind of a one-note guy. He’s kind of boring. But the larger sickness here is pretty pervasive. And we have to make fun of all those things that have popped up in American life. And there’s unfortunately a wealth of it right now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But it is — it’s very commercialized. It’s a very lucrative business to convince people that they are, you know, they’re one pill away or they’re one Zoom class away from fixing all the problems in their life. When, in reality, it’s a lot more complicated than that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, let me play a little bit from your very first show that aired on July 2nd. This is basically the, you know, summary of what Infowars will be.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip:\u003c/strong> The government, politicians, the media — they’re silencing the truth. Because the truth is dangerous. They don’t want their secrets revealed. This is exactly the kind of conversation they don’t want us to have. We could be killed. Or worse.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> More on The Onion’s recent takeover of Infowars with CEO of The Onion, Ben Collins. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Monday, August 11, 2026 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What would happen if a top-secret Russian lab released a deadly, weaponized, pathogen? That’s the nightmare possibility that author Annie Jacobsen presents in her new book, \u003ca href=\"https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/783250/biological-war-by-annie-jacobsen/\">“Biological War: A Scenario.”\u003c/a> Drawing on hundreds of interviews with former defense secretaries, CIA and FEMA officials, scientists and counterterrorism experts, Jacobsen shows how we might respond hour-by-hour, and the outlook is grim. We’ll talk to Jacobsen about why we can’t ignore the existence of biological weaponry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Annie Jacobsen, \u003c/strong>author of “Biological War: A Scenario” and other books including “Nuclear War” and “The Pentagon’s Brain”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. When news broke last week that Stanford scientists had trained AI to create 16 new viruses in hopes of driving medical advances, alarm bells also rang over how this could be used by bad actors to create novel viruses as weapons and wipe out populations. Journalist and author Annie Jacobsen says that even without AI’s help, nations for decades have been genetically engineering pathogens in malicious ways. And in her new book, \u003cem>Biological War: A Scenario\u003c/em>, she considers what would happen hour by hour if a U.S. adversary released one of those weaponized germs. Annie Jacobsen joins me now. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thank you for having me. You know, I honestly could not put your book down, which I did not expect with a topic like biological war, but it really is a testament to your ability to write something this complex, this extensively.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Annie Jacobsen:\u003c/strong> Well, thank you very much. And I think what I show is the mechanisms behind the veil of this kind of a catastrophic event. And ultimately, not only is it dramatic, but it actually is so impactful to us as individuals. Certainly with bio, we can all relate to it because we all just lived through a pandemic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, exactly. So walk us through, in your book, the scenario that you crafted, how this initially unfolds, because it’s Russia that has released this weaponized pathogen, and it has done it inadvertently with an accidental explosion at a Siberian lab.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Annie Jacobsen:\u003c/strong> That’s right. I take the readers essentially from outbreak to anarchy in the United States in six days. And I typically begin the scenario with that accident you refer to. It’s also called a lab escape or a lab leak among scientists. Lab leaks are very common, unfortunately. They present an extraordinary danger. And I did that very specifically because I was shocked, having written about national security for 20 years and looked at countless war games and studied countless battles and operations. It’s always an attack that gets a counter-attack. And yet, in biological war, it doesn’t need to be an attack. It can be an incident that triggers all of this. And that means an accident or a lab leak.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, one of the mechanisms by which it spreads is that this scientist, you know, has essentially felt guilty about his research, has tried to incinerate the virus that he’s developing, it goes wrong, causes the explosion, he’s infected and knows he’s going to die, and goes to confession, thereby infecting other people, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Annie Jacobsen:\u003c/strong> That’s absolutely right. What a truly human archetype of behavior.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And then there is — so one of the ways it gets to the U.S. is that one of the people he infects is like a Russian student studying abroad at UCLA. But how does it get out to multiple continents very quickly?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Annie Jacobsen:\u003c/strong> You know, I looked at the 14th-century bubonic plague, also known as the Black Death, that killed one-third and one-half of Europe, to get a real foothold on the question you asked me, how I would answer that and how I’d present that dramatically, but realistically in today’s world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it was very interesting, in reading contemporary reports by survivors of the Black Death, that it was often noted that the plague traveled at the speed that humans traveled. And back in the 14th century, that was at about one mile a day by caravan or by ship. It’s such an image. And then when you think about today, we can — we, any of us can, and many of us have — gotten halfway across the planet in half a day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when you realize that, now you have a real nightmare scenario with any super-dangerous pathogen that has a high case-fatality rate. You can just spread that disease on an airplane. That is a super-spreader event. And then you have generation one becomes generation two, three, and four. And suddenly the pathogen is seeded in the entire world at scale.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. So generation one, the initial people, then the people that they infect affecting the other people around them, and then so on and so forth. So talk about the U.S. government in the meantime. It has caught this explosion on their satellites and all the agencies are springing into action. But because Russia is an adversary, they’re not being forthcoming about what happened. So they have to figure things out on their own. Can you talk about what you learned about how our government is set up to respond? And why those measures essentially are likely to be inadequate in the face of a biological weapon and are in your scenario?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Annie Jacobsen:\u003c/strong> Exactly. I mean, you know, coming on the heels of all the reporting I’ve done on national security and specifically on my previous book, \u003cem>Nuclear War: A Scenario\u003c/em>, I am incredibly interested in learning about and then conveying to my readers how the national security apparatus here in the United States responds to something.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I was shocked when I was reporting \u003cem>Nuclear War\u003c/em> to learn that nuclear war begins when an ICBM launches halfway across the world. In other words, those first 33 minutes while the ICBM is traveling to the United States, the Defense Department knows not only that it has happened but knows exactly where it is, essentially. And so the whole system moves into high gear without any of us having any idea of what is going on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bio had a completely disarming — disquieting, let me just say terrifying — sort of mirror to that, which is that in the event of an explosion-type event at a BSL-4 lab in Siberia, in Russia, which was the inciting incident in the book, I learned the Defense Department has eyes on that facility. So they know about the explosion in minute one because they see it from space with the satellite system, the same kinds of systems that look for nuclear launches.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But unlike nuclear, there’s no way to precisely detect what happened surrounding that explosion. Was a pathogen released? Is anyone dying? And so in the first act of the book, I take the reader, as you said, hour by hour through the Defense Department, the intelligence community — these are all our agencies, NRO, NSA, DIA, CIA. I interview people from all those organizations working over time to try and figure out what happened.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, it’s this incredible shark-in-the-water feeling. As you said, State Department officials are trying to get Moscow to pony up and tell the truth. What happened? Were there dangerous pathogens in this lab that exploded? And of course, Moscow won’t talk, because that, I learned from all State Department officials, that’s the world in which we live right now, because communication has just been absolutely stunted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so I’m trying to convey to the reader both how serious it is that you cannot determine in the first hours whether a pathogen has been released. And at the same time, I learned from subject matter experts that that is precisely the only window of time in which you could mitigate this, which you can keep an outbreak from becoming an epidemic and then becoming a —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Pandemic. Right. At one point, they even contemplate, you know, the officials, the government officials from all these different agencies, just nuking the area, right? Which is pretty shocking to learn is even a potential option when people are panicked in these situations about whether or not something gets out, right. But what’s incredible is that even if they took such a catastrophic action around the site of the explosion, people have already gotten on planes and left the area and brought it here. So it’s already too late.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Annie Jacobsen:\u003c/strong> It’s exactly right. You know, there was an interview I did with a Pentagon wargamer named Colonel Thomas Erhardt, and he worked in the Office of the Secretary of Defense under this very famous, legendary wargamer named Andrew Marshall, who led the Office for Net Assessment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when I was asking Erhardt, kind of like what you’re asking me, like, wait a minute, is there really nothing that can be done to mitigate this problem? And he’s the one that said to me that there’s actually no real homeland defense against a catastrophic pathogen. All that we can do is mitigate extermination. Those were his words.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Annie Jacobsen about what might happen if a biological weapon escaped from a lab in Russia, how the U.S. government might respond hour by hour in a ticking-clock race to stop the spread of a deadly biological weapon.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And listeners, I want to invite you to join the conversation. What is your reaction to what you’re hearing? What questions do you have for Jacobsen about the threat and impact of biological war? You can email forum@kqed.org, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram at KQED Forum, and you can call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So part of the reason that you envision a scenario that it does take six days from the release of the engineered virus to the U.S. devolving into anarchy in just six days is because of the effectiveness of this pathogen. Could you just describe its features?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Annie Jacobsen:\u003c/strong> You bet. So one important thing to know, and I love that part of this learning experience ends up becoming sort of a powerful tool for people, not just for a reporter, but for all of us in dealing with these kinds of realities for ourselves and our families.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I’m talking about, like, threats when people suddenly panic and they say, is there going to be an Ebola epidemic in America because there’s one in West Africa, et cetera. There are, for starters, a pathogen — there are two kinds of pathogens that can be deadly to humans. One is a virus. COVID was a virus. The other are bacteria. And that is what I use in the book as a pathogen. I use the plague.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Plague bacteria is called Yersinia pestis. And plague is precisely what the Black Death was predicated on. But that was bubonic plague. And what I learned from subject matter experts is that bubonic plague has a far more nefarious sort of uncle or grandfather, if you will, which is called pneumonic plague.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And of course, pneumonia means it involves the lungs. So pneumonic is airborne. It’s transmissible from person to person through the air. COVID was airborne, and that’s what makes it pandemic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm. And this pathogen that you create for this scenario is also airborne as well. We’ll dig into more about the pathogen right after the break. Stay with us. You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What would happen if a top-secret Russian lab released a deadly, weaponized, pathogen? That’s the nightmare possibility that author Annie Jacobsen presents in her new book, \u003ca href=\"https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/783250/biological-war-by-annie-jacobsen/\">“Biological War: A Scenario.”\u003c/a> Drawing on hundreds of interviews with former defense secretaries, CIA and FEMA officials, scientists and counterterrorism experts, Jacobsen shows how we might respond hour-by-hour, and the outlook is grim. We’ll talk to Jacobsen about why we can’t ignore the existence of biological weaponry.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. When news broke last week that Stanford scientists had trained AI to create 16 new viruses in hopes of driving medical advances, alarm bells also rang over how this could be used by bad actors to create novel viruses as weapons and wipe out populations. Journalist and author Annie Jacobsen says that even without AI’s help, nations for decades have been genetically engineering pathogens in malicious ways. And in her new book, \u003cem>Biological War: A Scenario\u003c/em>, she considers what would happen hour by hour if a U.S. adversary released one of those weaponized germs. Annie Jacobsen joins me now. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. When news broke last week that Stanford scientists had trained AI to create 16 new viruses in hopes of driving medical advances, alarm bells also rang over how this could be used by bad actors to create novel viruses as weapons and wipe out populations. Journalist and author Annie Jacobsen says that even without AI’s help, nations for decades have been genetically engineering pathogens in malicious ways. And in her new book, \u003cem>Biological War: A Scenario\u003c/em>, she considers what would happen hour by hour if a U.S. adversary released one of those weaponized germs. Annie Jacobsen joins me now. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Thank you for having me. You know, I honestly could not put your book down, which I did not expect with a topic like biological war, but it really is a testament to your ability to write something this complex, this extensively.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Thank you for having me. You know, I honestly could not put your book down, which I did not expect with a topic like biological war, but it really is a testament to your ability to write something this complex, this extensively.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Annie Jacobsen:\u003c/strong> Well, thank you very much. And I think what I show is the mechanisms behind the veil of this kind of a catastrophic event. And ultimately, not only is it dramatic, but it actually is so impactful to us as individuals. Certainly with bio, we can all relate to it because we all just lived through a pandemic.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Annie Jacobsen:\u003c/strong> Well, thank you very much. And I think what I show is the mechanisms behind the veil of this kind of a catastrophic event. And ultimately, not only is it dramatic, but it actually is so impactful to us as individuals. Certainly with bio, we can all relate to it because we all just lived through a pandemic.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, exactly. So walk us through, in your book, the scenario that you crafted, how this initially unfolds, because it’s Russia that has released this weaponized pathogen, and it has done it inadvertently with an accidental explosion at a Siberian lab.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, exactly. So walk us through, in your book, the scenario that you crafted, how this initially unfolds, because it’s Russia that has released this weaponized pathogen, and it has done it inadvertently with an accidental explosion at a Siberian lab.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Annie Jacobsen:\u003c/strong> That’s right. I take the readers essentially from outbreak to anarchy in the United States in six days. And I typically begin the scenario with that accident you refer to. It’s also called a lab escape or a lab leak among scientists. Lab leaks are very common, unfortunately. They present an extraordinary danger. And I did that very specifically because I was shocked, having written about national security for 20 years and looked at countless war games and studied countless battles and operations. It’s always an attack that gets a counter-attack. And yet, in biological war, it doesn’t need to be an attack. It can be an incident that triggers all of this. And that means an accident or a lab leak.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Annie Jacobsen:\u003c/strong> That’s right. I take the readers essentially from outbreak to anarchy in the United States in six days. And I typically begin the scenario with that accident you refer to. It’s also called a lab escape or a lab leak among scientists. Lab leaks are very common, unfortunately. They present an extraordinary danger. And I did that very specifically because I was shocked, having written about national security for 20 years and looked at countless war games and studied countless battles and operations. It’s always an attack that gets a counter-attack. And yet, in biological war, it doesn’t need to be an attack. It can be an incident that triggers all of this. And that means an accident or a lab leak.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, one of the mechanisms by which it spreads is that this scientist, you know, has essentially felt guilty about his research, has tried to incinerate the virus that he’s developing, it goes wrong, causes the explosion, he’s infected and knows he’s going to die, and goes to confession, thereby infecting other people, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, one of the mechanisms by which it spreads is that this scientist, you know, has essentially felt guilty about his research, has tried to incinerate the virus that he’s developing, it goes wrong, causes the explosion, he’s infected and knows he’s going to die, and goes to confession, thereby infecting other people, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Annie Jacobsen:\u003c/strong> That’s absolutely right. What a truly human archetype of behavior.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And then there is — so one of the ways it gets to the U.S. is that one of the people he infects is like a Russian student studying abroad at UCLA. But how does it get out to multiple continents very quickly?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And then there is — so one of the ways it gets to the U.S. is that one of the people he infects is like a Russian student studying abroad at UCLA. But how does it get out to multiple continents very quickly?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Annie Jacobsen:\u003c/strong> You know, I looked at the 14th-century bubonic plague, also known as the Black Death, that killed one-third and one-half of Europe, to get a real foothold on the question you asked me, how I would answer that and how I’d present that dramatically, but realistically in today’s world.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And it was very interesting, in reading contemporary reports by survivors of the Black Death, that it was often noted that the plague traveled at the speed that humans traveled. And back in the 14th century, that was at about one mile a day by caravan or by ship. It’s such an image. And then when you think about today, we can — we, any of us can, and many of us have — gotten halfway across the planet in half a day.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And when you realize that, now you have a real nightmare scenario with any super-dangerous pathogen that has a high case-fatality rate. You can just spread that disease on an airplane. That is a super-spreader event. And then you have generation one becomes generation two, three, and four. And suddenly the pathogen is seeded in the entire world at scale.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. So generation one, the initial people, then the people that they infect affecting the other people around them, and then so on and so forth. So talk about the U.S. government in the meantime. It has caught this explosion on their satellites and all the agencies are springing into action. But because Russia is an adversary, they’re not being forthcoming about what happened. So they have to figure things out on their own. Can you talk about what you learned about how our government is set up to respond? And why those measures essentially are likely to be inadequate in the face of a biological weapon and are in your scenario?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. So generation one, the initial people, then the people that they infect affecting the other people around them, and then so on and so forth. So talk about the U.S. government in the meantime. It has caught this explosion on their satellites and all the agencies are springing into action. But because Russia is an adversary, they’re not being forthcoming about what happened. So they have to figure things out on their own. Can you talk about what you learned about how our government is set up to respond? And why those measures essentially are likely to be inadequate in the face of a biological weapon and are in your scenario?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Annie Jacobsen:\u003c/strong> Exactly. I mean, you know, coming on the heels of all the reporting I’ve done on national security and specifically on my previous book, \u003cem>Nuclear War: A Scenario\u003c/em>, I am incredibly interested in learning about and then conveying to my readers how the national security apparatus here in the United States responds to something.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I was shocked when I was reporting \u003cem>Nuclear War\u003c/em> to learn that nuclear war begins when an ICBM launches halfway across the world. In other words, those first 33 minutes while the ICBM is traveling to the United States, the Defense Department knows not only that it has happened but knows exactly where it is, essentially. And so the whole system moves into high gear without any of us having any idea of what is going on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bio had a completely disarming — disquieting, let me just say terrifying — sort of mirror to that, which is that in the event of an explosion-type event at a BSL-4 lab in Siberia, in Russia, which was the inciting incident in the book, I learned the Defense Department has eyes on that facility. So they know about the explosion in minute one because they see it from space with the satellite system, the same kinds of systems that look for nuclear launches.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bio had a completely disarming — disquieting, let me just say terrifying — sort of mirror to that, which is that in the event of an explosion-type event at a BSL-4 lab in Siberia, in Russia, which was the inciting incident in the book, I learned the Defense Department has eyes on that facility. So they know about the explosion in minute one because they see it from space with the satellite system, the same kinds of systems that look for nuclear launches.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But unlike nuclear, there’s no way to precisely detect what happened surrounding that explosion. Was a pathogen released? Is anyone dying? And so in the first act of the book, I take the reader, as you said, hour by hour through the Defense Department, the intelligence community — these are all our agencies, NRO, NSA, DIA, CIA. I interview people from all those organizations working over time to try and figure out what happened.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But unlike nuclear, there’s no way to precisely detect what happened surrounding that explosion. Was a pathogen released? Is anyone dying? And so in the first act of the book, I take the reader, as you said, hour by hour through the Defense Department, the intelligence community — these are all our agencies, NRO, NSA, DIA, CIA. I interview people from all those organizations working over time to try and figure out what happened.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I mean, it’s this incredible shark-in-the-water feeling. As you said, State Department officials are trying to get Moscow to pony up and tell the truth. What happened? Were there dangerous pathogens in this lab that exploded? And of course, Moscow won’t talk, because that, I learned from all State Department officials, that’s the world in which we live right now, because communication has just been absolutely stunted.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I mean, it’s this incredible shark-in-the-water feeling. As you said, State Department officials are trying to get Moscow to pony up and tell the truth. What happened? Were there dangerous pathogens in this lab that exploded? And of course, Moscow won’t talk, because that, I learned from all State Department officials, that’s the world in which we live right now, because communication has just been absolutely stunted.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so I’m trying to convey to the reader both how serious it is that you cannot determine in the first hours whether a pathogen has been released. And at the same time, I learned from subject matter experts that that is precisely the only window of time in which you could mitigate this, which you can keep an outbreak from becoming an epidemic and then becoming a —\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Pandemic. Right. At one point, they even contemplate, you know, the officials, the government officials from all these different agencies, just nuking the area, right? Which is pretty shocking to learn is even a potential option when people are panicked in these situations about whether or not something gets out, right. But what’s incredible is that even if they took such a catastrophic action around the site of the explosion, people have already gotten on planes and left the area and brought it here. So it’s already too late.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Pandemic. Right. At one point, they even contemplate, you know, the officials, the government officials from all these different agencies, just nuking the area, right? Which is pretty shocking to learn is even a potential option when people are panicked in these situations about whether or not something gets out, right. But what’s incredible is that even if they took such a catastrophic action around the site of the explosion, people have already gotten on planes and left the area and brought it here. So it’s already too late.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Annie Jacobsen:\u003c/strong> It’s exactly right. You know, there was an interview I did with a Pentagon wargamer named Colonel Thomas Erhardt, and he worked in the Office of the Secretary of Defense under this very famous, legendary wargamer named Andrew Marshall, who led the Office for Net Assessment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Annie Jacobsen:\u003c/strong> It’s exactly right. You know, there was an interview I did with a Pentagon wargamer named Colonel Thomas Erhardt, and he worked in the Office of the Secretary of Defense under this very famous, legendary wargamer named Andrew Marshall, who led the Office for Net Assessment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And when I was asking Erhardt, kind of like what you’re asking me, like, wait a minute, is there really nothing that can be done to mitigate this problem? And he’s the one that said to me that there’s actually no real homeland defense against a catastrophic pathogen. All that we can do is mitigate extermination. Those were his words.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Annie Jacobsen about what might happen if a biological weapon escaped from a lab in Russia, how the U.S. government might respond hour by hour in a ticking-clock race to stop the spread of a deadly biological weapon.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And listeners, I want to invite you to join the conversation. What is your reaction to what you’re hearing? What questions do you have for Jacobsen about the threat and impact of biological war? You can email forum@kqed.org, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram at KQED Forum, and you can call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So part of the reason that you envision a scenario that it does take six days from the release of the engineered virus to the U.S. devolving into anarchy in just six days is because of the effectiveness of this pathogen. Could you just describe its features?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Annie Jacobsen:\u003c/strong> You bet. So one important thing to know, and I love that part of this learning experience ends up becoming sort of a powerful tool for people, not just for a reporter, but for all of us in dealing with these kinds of realities for ourselves and our families.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I’m talking about, like, threats when people suddenly panic and they say, is there going to be an Ebola epidemic in America because there’s one in West Africa, et cetera. There are, for starters, a pathogen — there are two kinds of pathogens that can be deadly to humans. One is a virus. COVID was a virus. The other are bacteria. And that is what I use in the book as a pathogen. I use the plague.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Plague bacteria is called Yersinia pestis. And plague is precisely what the Black Death was predicated on. But that was bubonic plague. And what I learned from subject matter experts is that bubonic plague has a far more nefarious sort of uncle or grandfather, if you will, which is called pneumonic plague.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And of course, pneumonia means it involves the lungs. So pneumonic is airborne. It’s transmissible from person to person through the air. COVID was airborne, and that’s what makes it pandemic.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm. And this pathogen that you create for this scenario is also airborne as well. We’ll dig into more about the pathogen right after the break. Stay with us. You’re listening to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Airdate: Monday, August 11, 2026 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What would happen if a top-secret Russian lab released a deadly, weaponized, pathogen? That’s the nightmare possibility that author Annie Jacobsen presents in her new book, \u003ca href=\"https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/783250/biological-war-by-annie-jacobsen/\">“Biological War: A Scenario.”\u003c/a> Drawing on hundreds of interviews with former defense secretaries, CIA and FEMA officials, scientists and counterterrorism experts, Jacobsen shows how we might respond hour-by-hour, and the outlook is grim. We’ll talk to Jacobsen about why we can’t ignore the existence of biological weaponry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Annie Jacobsen, \u003c/strong>author of “Biological War: A Scenario” and other books including “Nuclear War” and “The Pentagon’s Brain”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, I’m Mina Kim. When news broke last week that Stanford scientists had trained AI to create 16 new viruses in hopes of driving medical advances, alarm bells also rang over how this could be used by bad actors to create novel viruses as weapons and wipe out populations. Journalist and author Annie Jacobsen says that even without AI’s help, nations for decades have been genetically engineering pathogens in malicious ways. And in her new book, \u003cem>Biological War: A Scenario\u003c/em>, she considers what would happen hour by hour if a U.S. adversary released one of those weaponized germs. Annie Jacobsen joins me now. Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thank you for having me. You know, I honestly could not put your book down, which I did not expect with a topic like biological war, but it really is a testament to your ability to write something this complex, this extensively.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Annie Jacobsen:\u003c/strong> Well, thank you very much. And I think what I show is the mechanisms behind the veil of this kind of a catastrophic event. And ultimately, not only is it dramatic, but it actually is so impactful to us as individuals. Certainly with bio, we can all relate to it because we all just lived through a pandemic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah, exactly. So walk us through, in your book, the scenario that you crafted, how this initially unfolds, because it’s Russia that has released this weaponized pathogen, and it has done it inadvertently with an accidental explosion at a Siberian lab.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Annie Jacobsen:\u003c/strong> That’s right. I take the readers essentially from outbreak to anarchy in the United States in six days. And I typically begin the scenario with that accident you refer to. It’s also called a lab escape or a lab leak among scientists. Lab leaks are very common, unfortunately. They present an extraordinary danger. And I did that very specifically because I was shocked, having written about national security for 20 years and looked at countless war games and studied countless battles and operations. It’s always an attack that gets a counter-attack. And yet, in biological war, it doesn’t need to be an attack. It can be an incident that triggers all of this. And that means an accident or a lab leak.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, one of the mechanisms by which it spreads is that this scientist, you know, has essentially felt guilty about his research, has tried to incinerate the virus that he’s developing, it goes wrong, causes the explosion, he’s infected and knows he’s going to die, and goes to confession, thereby infecting other people, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Annie Jacobsen:\u003c/strong> That’s absolutely right. What a truly human archetype of behavior.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And then there is — so one of the ways it gets to the U.S. is that one of the people he infects is like a Russian student studying abroad at UCLA. But how does it get out to multiple continents very quickly?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Annie Jacobsen:\u003c/strong> You know, I looked at the 14th-century bubonic plague, also known as the Black Death, that killed one-third and one-half of Europe, to get a real foothold on the question you asked me, how I would answer that and how I’d present that dramatically, but realistically in today’s world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And it was very interesting, in reading contemporary reports by survivors of the Black Death, that it was often noted that the plague traveled at the speed that humans traveled. And back in the 14th century, that was at about one mile a day by caravan or by ship. It’s such an image. And then when you think about today, we can — we, any of us can, and many of us have — gotten halfway across the planet in half a day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when you realize that, now you have a real nightmare scenario with any super-dangerous pathogen that has a high case-fatality rate. You can just spread that disease on an airplane. That is a super-spreader event. And then you have generation one becomes generation two, three, and four. And suddenly the pathogen is seeded in the entire world at scale.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. So generation one, the initial people, then the people that they infect affecting the other people around them, and then so on and so forth. So talk about the U.S. government in the meantime. It has caught this explosion on their satellites and all the agencies are springing into action. But because Russia is an adversary, they’re not being forthcoming about what happened. So they have to figure things out on their own. Can you talk about what you learned about how our government is set up to respond? And why those measures essentially are likely to be inadequate in the face of a biological weapon and are in your scenario?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Annie Jacobsen:\u003c/strong> Exactly. I mean, you know, coming on the heels of all the reporting I’ve done on national security and specifically on my previous book, \u003cem>Nuclear War: A Scenario\u003c/em>, I am incredibly interested in learning about and then conveying to my readers how the national security apparatus here in the United States responds to something.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I was shocked when I was reporting \u003cem>Nuclear War\u003c/em> to learn that nuclear war begins when an ICBM launches halfway across the world. In other words, those first 33 minutes while the ICBM is traveling to the United States, the Defense Department knows not only that it has happened but knows exactly where it is, essentially. And so the whole system moves into high gear without any of us having any idea of what is going on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bio had a completely disarming — disquieting, let me just say terrifying — sort of mirror to that, which is that in the event of an explosion-type event at a BSL-4 lab in Siberia, in Russia, which was the inciting incident in the book, I learned the Defense Department has eyes on that facility. So they know about the explosion in minute one because they see it from space with the satellite system, the same kinds of systems that look for nuclear launches.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But unlike nuclear, there’s no way to precisely detect what happened surrounding that explosion. Was a pathogen released? Is anyone dying? And so in the first act of the book, I take the reader, as you said, hour by hour through the Defense Department, the intelligence community — these are all our agencies, NRO, NSA, DIA, CIA. I interview people from all those organizations working over time to try and figure out what happened.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I mean, it’s this incredible shark-in-the-water feeling. As you said, State Department officials are trying to get Moscow to pony up and tell the truth. What happened? Were there dangerous pathogens in this lab that exploded? And of course, Moscow won’t talk, because that, I learned from all State Department officials, that’s the world in which we live right now, because communication has just been absolutely stunted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so I’m trying to convey to the reader both how serious it is that you cannot determine in the first hours whether a pathogen has been released. And at the same time, I learned from subject matter experts that that is precisely the only window of time in which you could mitigate this, which you can keep an outbreak from becoming an epidemic and then becoming a —\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Pandemic. Right. At one point, they even contemplate, you know, the officials, the government officials from all these different agencies, just nuking the area, right? Which is pretty shocking to learn is even a potential option when people are panicked in these situations about whether or not something gets out, right. But what’s incredible is that even if they took such a catastrophic action around the site of the explosion, people have already gotten on planes and left the area and brought it here. So it’s already too late.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Annie Jacobsen:\u003c/strong> It’s exactly right. You know, there was an interview I did with a Pentagon wargamer named Colonel Thomas Erhardt, and he worked in the Office of the Secretary of Defense under this very famous, legendary wargamer named Andrew Marshall, who led the Office for Net Assessment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And when I was asking Erhardt, kind of like what you’re asking me, like, wait a minute, is there really nothing that can be done to mitigate this problem? And he’s the one that said to me that there’s actually no real homeland defense against a catastrophic pathogen. All that we can do is mitigate extermination. Those were his words.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Annie Jacobsen about what might happen if a biological weapon escaped from a lab in Russia, how the U.S. government might respond hour by hour in a ticking-clock race to stop the spread of a deadly biological weapon.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And listeners, I want to invite you to join the conversation. What is your reaction to what you’re hearing? What questions do you have for Jacobsen about the threat and impact of biological war? You can email forum@kqed.org, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook or Instagram at KQED Forum, and you can call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So part of the reason that you envision a scenario that it does take six days from the release of the engineered virus to the U.S. devolving into anarchy in just six days is because of the effectiveness of this pathogen. Could you just describe its features?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Annie Jacobsen:\u003c/strong> You bet. So one important thing to know, and I love that part of this learning experience ends up becoming sort of a powerful tool for people, not just for a reporter, but for all of us in dealing with these kinds of realities for ourselves and our families.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I’m talking about, like, threats when people suddenly panic and they say, is there going to be an Ebola epidemic in America because there’s one in West Africa, et cetera. There are, for starters, a pathogen — there are two kinds of pathogens that can be deadly to humans. One is a virus. COVID was a virus. The other are bacteria. And that is what I use in the book as a pathogen. I use the plague.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Plague bacteria is called Yersinia pestis. And plague is precisely what the Black Death was predicated on. But that was bubonic plague. 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"rss": "https://podcasts.files.bbci.co.uk/p02nq0gn.rss"
}
},
"californiareport": {
"id": "californiareport",
"title": "The California Report",
"tagline": "California, day by day",
"info": "KQED’s statewide radio news program providing daily coverage of issues, trends and public policy decisions.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-California-Report-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/californiareport",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 8
},
"link": "/californiareport",
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}
},
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"id": "californiareportmagazine",
"title": "The California Report Magazine",
"tagline": "Your state, your stories",
"info": "Every week, The California Report Magazine takes you on a road trip for the ears: to visit the places and meet the people who make California unique. The in-depth storytelling podcast from the California Report.",
"airtime": "FRI 4:30pm-5pm, 6:30pm-7pm, 11pm-11:30pm",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/californiareportmagazine",
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"order": 10
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM3NjkwNjk1OTAz",
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}
},
"city-arts": {
"id": "city-arts",
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"info": "A one-hour radio program to hear celebrated writers, artists and thinkers address contemporary ideas and values, often discussing the creative process. Please note: tapes or transcripts are not available",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/05/cityartsandlecture-300x300.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.cityarts.net/",
"airtime": "SUN 1pm-2pm, TUE 10pm, WED 1am",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
"subscribe": {
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/City-Arts-and-Lectures-p692/",
"rss": "https://www.cityarts.net/feed/"
}
},
"closealltabs": {
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"info": "Close All Tabs breaks down how digital culture shapes our world through thoughtful insights and irreverent humor.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/closealltabs",
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"order": 1
},
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"title": "Code Switch / Life Kit",
"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"meta": {
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnByLm9yZy9yc3MvcG9kY2FzdC5waHA_aWQ9NTEwMzEy",
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
"airtime": "THU 10pm, FRI 1am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Commonwealth-Club-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
"link": "/radio/program/commonwealth-club",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/commonwealth-club-of-california-podcast/id976334034?mt=2",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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}
},
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"id": "forum",
"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 9am-11am, 10pm-11pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
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"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 9
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5NTU3MzgxNjMz",
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"id": "freakonomics-radio",
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"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/freakonomicsRadio.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
"airtime": "SUN 1am-2am, SAT 3pm-4pm",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WNYC"
},
"link": "/radio/program/freakonomics-radio",
"subscribe": {
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
"rss": "https://feeds.feedburner.com/freakonomicsradio"
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},
"fresh-air": {
"id": "fresh-air",
"title": "Fresh Air",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/381444908/podcast.xml"
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510051/podcast.xml"
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},
"hidden-brain": {
"id": "hidden-brain",
"title": "Hidden Brain",
"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/series/423302056/hidden-brain",
"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "NPR"
},
"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
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},
"how-i-built-this": {
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"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/howIBuiltThis.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510313/how-i-built-this",
"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/3zxy",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
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},
"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"order": 15
},
"link": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/2p3Fifq96nw9BPcmFdIq0o?si=39209f7b25774f38",
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"rss": "https://feeds.megaphone.fm/KQINC2275451163"
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},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 18
},
"link": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/id1492194549",
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}
},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
"subscribe": {
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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"rss": "https://feeds.publicradio.org/public_feeds/marketplace-pm/rss/rss"
}
},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
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"source": "WaitWhat"
},
"link": "/radio/program/masters-of-scale",
"subscribe": {
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
"subscribe": {
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/stories-teachers-share",
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}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
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"link": "/radio/program/morning-edition"
},
"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "On Our Watch from NPR and KQED",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/id1567098962",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
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"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/0OLWoyizopu6tY1XiuX70x",
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"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/show/on-our-watch",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510360/podcast.xml"
}
},
"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
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"info": "One of public radio's most dynamic voices, Sam Sanders helped launch The NPR Politics Podcast and hosted NPR's hit show It's Been A Minute. Now, the award-winning host returns with something brand new, The Sam Sanders Show. Every week, Sam Sanders and friends dig into the culture that shapes our lives: what's driving the biggest trends, how artists really think, and even the memes you can't stop scrolling past. Sam is beloved for his way of unpacking the world and bringing you up close to fresh currents and engaging conversations. The Sam Sanders Show is smart, funny and always a good time.",
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},
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"filters": [
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},
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"restaurantDataById": {},
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"userAgentReducer": {
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"isBot": true
},
"requestOutcomesReducer": {
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}
}
