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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Think you can opt out of surveillance? Think again. Our locations, behaviors, and images are being tracked at unprecedented levels — and private tech companies are at the center, selling that information directly to the government. In this episode, Morgan talks with Nicol Turner Lee, Director of the Center for Technology Innovation at The Brookings Institution, about why avoiding identification in public spaces is almost impossible, and how civilians are now helping do the government’s work by surveilling each other.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC2447886762\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jalsa Drinkard, Columbia University student and an organizer for Columbia University Apartheid Divest, CUAD\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pogo.org/about/people/don-bell\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don Bell\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, policy counsel at The Constitution Project at The Project On Government Oversight, POGO\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.brookings.edu/people/nicol-turner-lee/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nicol Turner Lee\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Director of the Center for Technology Innovation at The Brookings Institution\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.vox.com/politics/410125/canary-mission-the-pro-israel-group-taking-credit-for-student-deportation-explained\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This pro-Israel group keeps a blacklist. Now it’s taking credit for deportations.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Zack Beauchamp, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Vox\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2025/04/privacy-map-how-states-are-fighting-location-surveillance\">Privacy on the Map: How States Are Fighting Location Surveillance\u003c/a> — Rindala Alajaji, \u003ci>Electronic Freedom Foundation\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.brookings.edu/articles/police-surveillance-and-facial-recognition-why-data-privacy-is-an-imperative-for-communities-of-color/\">Police surveillance and facial recognition: Why data privacy is imperative for communities of color\u003c/a> — Nicol Turner Lee and Caitlin Chin-Rothmann, \u003ci>Brookings Institute\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.notus.org/technology/cell-phone-tracking-law-enforcement-abortion-clinic\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s Possible to Track Someone’s Personal Phone to an Abortion Clinic. And It’s Legal Too.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Byron Tau, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NOTUS\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong data-start=\"111\" data-end=\"144\">Planning to attend a protest?\u003c/strong> Check out the Electronic Frontier Foundation’s \u003ca class=\"cursor-pointer\" target=\"_new\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"192\" data-end=\"270\">\u003cem data-start=\"193\" data-end=\"214\">Attending a Protest\u003c/em> guide\u003c/a> for practical digital security tips to help protect your privacy and data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A quick heads up before we start. This is part two of our deep dive on the government surveillance of protest movements. It’ll make more sense if you start with last week’s episode, which explains how we got here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In that episode, we covered the history of American surveillance and how dragnet surveillance became the norm. Dragnet surveillance, if you remember, is where the government tracks everyone, like a giant net scooping up all our information. But what does that look like in practice? What tools are being used to monitor protests? And how does all of this impact our right to free speech? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, let’s jump back in. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jalsa Drinkard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was an actual act of digital violence towards our students. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last time, we met Jalsa Drinkard, a student organizer and senior at Columbia University, who served as security during the weeks-long encampment protesting the school’s financial ties with Israel. As the university began cracking down on students through disciplinary actions like expulsions and suspensions, she says many students were caught off guard by the kind of evidence that was presented. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jalsa Drinkard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of people’s social media accounts were cited at their disciplinary hearings when they were called in to kind of discuss their case. It’s definitely being looked at and collected. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the year since, students who attend protests, or even just express solidarity with Palestinians on social media, have been disciplined or doxed, which means their private information was leaked online. And some now face deportation. It’s a drastic escalation, not only in monitoring what people post, but also in punishing them for it. And that’s raising alarm bells for free speech activists. Though surveillance using social media is now reaching an extreme, it’s been in use for over a decade. Let’s look back at that time and open a new tab. Protests in the 2010s. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Protesters: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t shoot! Accountable. Don’t shoot! Held accountable. Don’t shoot! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was from the Black Lives Matter protests in Ferguson, Missouri, after a white police officer shot and killed an unarmed black teenager, Michael Brown, in 2014. And then in 2016, an ACLU investigation revealed that Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram had all shared user data with a company called Geofeedia. That company analyzes social media posts and then groups them by location. Media outlets use the service to spot breaking news stories, and businesses use it for marketing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But as the ACLU discovered, Geofeedia also marketed this tool to law enforcement agencies as a way to monitor protests. Intelligence agencies had been surveilling and apprehending Black Lives Matter activists as early as 2014. This investigation showed that private companies were also aiding in surveillance. After that ACLU report came out, those social media companies cut off Geofeedia. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This investigation coincided with a period of privacy reform. It was right after Edward Snowden blew the whistle on the NSA’s mass surveillance program. Congress had just passed a new law to curb the government’s mass data collection. And a few years later, the Supreme Court ruled that the government couldn’t go around demanding that companies hand over your data without a warrant. Except there’s a glaring loophole here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The government can’t demand your data, But there’s nothing stopping them from buying it. And that’s exactly what’s been happening. In the last decade, protest surveillance has become even more intrusive, thanks to this partnership between private tech companies and the government. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A controversial social media surveillance tool has been helping the Los Angeles Police Department monitor Gaza protests. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amnesty International TikTok: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here we are at the end of the route, and as you can see from the map, my face has been scanned every step of the way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hampton Law YouTube: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These data brokers, they market and sell directly to the government. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is what we’re calling “the surveillance machine,” because it’s not just the government acting alone. Let’s break down how this machine works and how it’s used to target political speech, starting with this: the government is collecting a lot more of your data than you probably realize. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">New tab, data as surveillance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The industry of collecting and selling data is incredibly lucrative. Companies want data for things like credit checks or targeted advertising. This commodification of our personal information is known as surveillance capitalism, a phrase popularized by Harvard professor Shoshana Zuboff. That legal loophole that we talked about earlier, the one where the government partners with private tech companies, it functions because of this system of surveillance capitalism. It’s what allows the government to obtain our data and paint this very detailed picture of us, all without a warrant. It’s all thanks to key players in the system — data brokers. They’re the middlemen. They collect tons of personal information and then they sell it off to whoever can pay, including law enforcement. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s like, rather than the police getting a warrant to search your apartment, they just give the landlord an envelope of cash and the landlord lets them into the apartment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is surveillance policy expert Don Bell. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now that’s basically the same thing that’s happening with your phone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know that pop-up you get when you visit a website asking to allow cookies? Or sometimes when you open a new app and it asks for permission to use your location and run in the background? These are all ways that data brokers glean information from your daily commute to what time you exercise to the ads that grab your attention when you’re scrolling in the middle of the night. Each of these pieces of data is a little building block that starts to tell data brokers who you are. Like individual pixels that, eventually, make a full portrait of you and your life. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Large data brokers are able to sell essentially dossiers which contain thousands of data points on any given individual. It could be the doctors that you go to, the places of worship that you go to the protests that you go to, the people that you’re intimate with. It can create this complete picture of who you are, what your beliefs are, what your associations are. And in the hands of a government that aims to surveil and target people, that is extraordinarily dangerous. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the government has used this data broker loophole to surveil groups all over the United States, especially over the last few years. The military, for example, monitored Muslim communities in 2020 by buying location data sourced from a Muslim prayer app. In 2022, ICE got around sanctuary city policies by using information from data brokers to identify and deport undocumented immigrants. One data broker contracted with the government offers a tool called LocateX, which uses location data to track and potentially identify anyone who crossed state lines to visit abortion clinics. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You don’t get that mass surveillance on the scale that we are seeing without some sort of cooperation between ad tech and the private sector and the public sector. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After social media companies cut off access for Geofeedia in 2016, countless other companies took its place. One of those was Dataminr, a surveillance company that uses AI to scour social media sites. It’s alerted law enforcement to Black Lives Matter marches, pro-choice rallies, and most recently, protests in solidarity with Gaza. Dataminr often contacted police departments directly, warning them about the precise time and location of protests. These surveillance tools are now being used to punish people for what they say online, a right that’s protected under the First Amendment, specifically our right to free speech. And like we talked about in last week’s episode, the Trump administration is surveilling international students’ social media accounts. Political speech is now grounds for deportation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>ABC News: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tonight, international students at colleges and universities around the country reeling. The federal government revoking a number of visas with little to no warning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you notice that there are people in your class who are effectively disappearing because of their beliefs, you may be far less likely to express your beliefs online. And in doing so, you are seeing the suppression of First Amendment activities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There have been attempts to crack down on data brokers. Some members of Congress are now rallying behind “The Fourth Amendment is Not for Sale Act.” Remember, the Fourth Amendment protects people from, quote, unreasonable searches and seizures, end quote. Their proposed law would ban the government from buying data without a warrant, effectively closing this data broker loophole. It passed the House last year, but it still needs to go through the Senate. And then the president would have to sign it into law. But given the current administration’s recent actions, Don isn’t optimistic that’ll happen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The thing that worries me enormously is this administration and this national moment is very different from any other moment. If this kind of authoritarian push continues, it’s going to be exceptionally hard to first stop it and then build something that truly protects the constitutional and privacy and civil liberties of all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And here’s the thing with data collection — keeping tabs on our behavior and connections? It’s only one part of the surveillance machine. Even if you ditched your phone and pretty much every other device, your privacy would still be at risk because the moment you step into a public space, your face is being tracked. We’ll get more into that after this break. Let’s get back to the story. New tab, facial recognition for sale. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicol Turner Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not that old, so I want people to know I did not march in the Civil Rights Movement, right? But I am a student of history when it comes to social movements and civil rights. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dr. Nicol Turner Lee is a senior fellow in governance studies and the director of the Center for Technology Innovation at the Brookings Institution. Dr. Lee researches how technology shapes social justice movements and pointed out that today’s activists are more visible than ever, which means they’re easier to surveil. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicol Turner Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Back then, the tools that we used, like the telephone, you couldn’t see anybody, right? The telephone tree to tell people to show up in, you know, 25, 25, 35th Street, because we’re gonna march on that day. No one knew who was on the other line of the telephone line. You just knew you were getting a call to show up. But just like today, I just saw on social media, there’s gonna be some protest happening over the weekend, right, and it’s all over social media where it is, who’s showing up. It’s this double-edged sword, like activists do need a space in this burgeoning information economy, but they also need some protection that government, who is supposed to protect our democracy, is not going to use that against them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Social media is fodder for facial recognition technology, which works by analyzing images and matching faces with similar features. The technology is problematic. Studies have shown that it misidentifies black people and other people of color at a higher rate than white people. Still, it’s one of the major tools of modern surveillance, particularly when it comes to protests. During the 2020 Black Lives Matter protests, The NYPD used facial recognition to identify, locate, and attempt to arrest an activist without a warrant. The police cited the activist’s Instagram account in their reports, which is becoming the norm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicol Turner Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As this technology becomes much more embedded outside of protected law enforcement environments where it’s being used for investigation. We are now seeing facial recognition to analyze faces on social media, whether that’s the individual or the bystander in the photo. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of this has pushed students protesting for Gaza last year to be more diligent about covering their faces. But now, some universities are facing pressure to deploy facial recognition tools on campus and have banned face masks to discourage protests, especially pro-Palestine activity. Private businesses are also facing pressure to cooperate with facial recognition programs. And it’s especially difficult to opt out of being identified because of the sheer number of cameras in public spaces. They’re everywhere. They’re at traffic lights, public CCTV, and guarding private businesses and homes. Footage from dash cams and police body cams can also feed into these databases. If you’ve ever gotten a driver’s license or gone through airport security, your face is definitely in a database. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicol Turner Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I always say to people, “well, do I mind that there are cameras on the subway system? Probably not, because I’m probably not going to do something quite egregious on the subway system. But when somebody knocks on my door, am I going to feel different?” And unfortunately, disproportionately, people of color tend to be the ones whose doors are knocked on, because there’s a higher likelihood of some type of institutional interaction where they are in somebody’s database. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And once again, private tech companies are the key to facial recognition surveillance. The Black Lives Matter activist we mentioned earlier? The NYPD used one of these third party companies to identify him using his Instagram. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicol Turner Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What third-party companies have done is that they’ve actually engaged in what I call “massive wholesale scraping,” meaning they’re able to identify us in a variety of contexts, both personal and professional. And those images are sort of sold back to the federal government so that they can maintain those databases and those images. I mean, there’s a lot of central intelligence that is basically creeping up across the entire country. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a handful of states, residents have some recourse if they don’t want their face to appear in facial recognition databases. But those protections are inconsistent and the process of requesting deletion is convoluted. You have to make these requests to each company individually and you may have to repeat the process because there’s no opting out of being included again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicol Turner Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the absence of privacy legislation at the federal and state level, guess what? My mother used to say this all the time. “If you’re not in the kitchen, you’re on the menu.” So we are all on the menu, even though we think we live in a society where there’s some level of privacy, maybe in the context of our living rooms. In actuality, when you leave your home and you walk out that door, you are actually in a surveillance capitalist society. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So private tech companies are helping the government get around privacy laws and making a profit off of it. But even if we passed stronger laws and closed that legal loophole, it still might not be enough because the reality is, we’ve been surveilling each other for a long time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, let’s open one last tab, doxing as surveillance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This practice of tattling on each other has been gaining steam online for years. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Think of the seemingly innocuous ways that people are shamed on social media for what others perceive as bad behavior. Maybe they ghosted a new relationship and their bitter ex posted their hinge profile to warn others. Or someone Karen-ed out too hard at a restaurant and their outburst at a server was recorded and went viral. People have been doxxed for less. And now, These public shaming practices are weaponized as a surveillance tactic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicol Turner Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t think that people submit to participate on these platforms with the expectation that their information will be used to target them and to weaponize them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What makes this part of the surveillance machine different is that it’s civilians leading it, doing the work of monitoring political speech for the government, like in the case of Rumeysa Ozturk. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Al Jazeera: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">30-Year-old rumeysa Ozturk was on her way to break her Ramadan fast with friends on Tuesday when six plain-clothed officers approached her. The neighbor who captured the arrest on surveillance video described it as a kidnapping. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rumeysa is a Turkish student pursuing a PhD at Tufts University. Last year, she co-authored an op-ed in the school paper, which criticized the school’s response to student protests and described the war in Gaza as a genocide. Then, in March, she was doxed. A pro-Israel organization called Canary Mission added Rumeysa to their blacklist. They posted her name, face, and work history on their site and accused her of anti-Isreal activism, citing last year’s op-ed. Weeks later, her visa was revoked and she was arrested. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Canary Mission claims credit for her arrest and those of other visa holders who face deportation for supporting Palestinians. The organization maintains a database of publicly available dossiers on people who they consider anti-Israel or anti-Zionist, including Jewish academics. People have been harassed, threatened, and fired after being doxed on the site. And since the president signed the executive order targeting international students for protesting, Canary Mission has singled out visa holders and other legal U.S. Residents in a new section of their site, calling for deportations. This kind of civilian-led surveillance is especially alarming to legal experts like Dr. Lee. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicol Turner Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was a student against apartheid when I was in college, and I was a student urging our university to divest. That is just as similar to what we’re seeing in many of the pro-Palestinian movements with regards to, you know, just some of the things that we’re witnessing on the university campus, where students have, I guess, an implicit understanding that they are protected because they’re in a space of intellectual freedom. To have that happen is just very sad and disturbing. But then the second thing is like, not only the government’s doing it, but we as citizens are helping the governments do that to our fellow citizens. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Other civilian-led surveillance groups go even further. Betar U.S., the American branch of a Zionist nationalist youth movement, boasted that they’ve sent deportation lists to the Trump administration. They also claimed credit for the arrest of Mahmoud Khalil, the Syrian-born Columbia student who faces deportation for his involvement in the protests. One of the facial recognition tools Betar uses purports that it can identify protesters even if they’re masked. The tool works by scraping countless photos off of people’s social media accounts. And the developer, Eliyahu Hawila, says he plans to license it to other pro-Israel groups. Here he is, speaking to the Associated Press. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eliyahu Hawila: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean if they’re wearing masks they’re trying to hide. But then you ask yourself, “Oh well if you’re proud of yourself and like you don’t think you’re doing anything illegal then why are you hiding your face?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Civil liberties organizations have been fighting to regulate the government’s partnerships with surveillance tech companies. But when civilians use the same technology to dox each other, that’s uncharted territory. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicol Turner Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The fact that there is a level of implicit consent that that media could also be sent to law enforcement is quite troubling. But it does set up a really terrible precedent if we say that people’s freedom of speech and points of view can be targeted. And we do it in a way that we don’t equally apply that standard to other movements. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s no expectation of privacy in public spaces anymore. We’ve gotten into the habit of recording everything about our lives and the people around us. Even if you don’t use social media, your face could end up in the background of someone else’s Instagram story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicol Turner Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For years we’ve sort of dealt with what’s called “bystander theory” and there’s been a lot of research done on that. You know, tech companies have worked hard over the years to get bystanders to opt in to being in people’s photos. But sometimes you don’t know who that person is. Like I know I’m very mindful myself if I have a photo and I see like these random people in there of like cropping the photo to kind of get them out. But that type of hygiene is not necessarily part of everybody’s toolkit. We take photos and we have a host of people that sit in those photos, and then all of a sudden that person shows up again in somebody’s criminal database or may not have anything to do with what you were doing at this scene, but they’re still sort of pulled into, as my mama would say, your drama. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of this doxing and surveillance could have dire consequences for not only our right to the freedom of speech, but also our willingness to engage in any political issue, both online and in real life. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicol Turner Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But at the same time, does that mean that we’re going to have folks that are too afraid to post about things other than pilates on many of these platforms? And what does that world look like in the next five to ten years if people feel that it’s just not safe to say what you want to say, not just on social media, but generally? Right? Like if you’re a bystander at a meeting, you’re probably going to be targeted. A speech that you might have made at church, you know, could be picked up by somebody who recorded it, shared it in some way or form, and now they’re coming at you and your three degrees removed from it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The surveillance machine is massive. Between the data collection, facial recognition, and doxing campaigns, protesting can feel more dangerous than ever. But if it’s any comfort, Dr. Lee doesn’t think that people will stop exercising their rights. Activists have weathered surveillance before and figured out ways around it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicol Turner Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I think about the ancestors of people who gave me the right to sit here on this podcast with you and get the education that I have, they believed in something and they didn’t allow that surveillance to break up their social movements, which would be considered the civil rights movement, which led to great policy. So I’m gonna put that out there. I think that that’s not going to minimize how people organize. It’s just gonna influence how their tactics may change. But if you’re a truly engaged activist, the government already has data on you. You know, surveillance is not new to America, and to the world. It is part of capitalism. You know no amount of scrutiny should stop us from wanting to actually elevate good causes and to work in the public interest. It only means that we have to be smarter and we have be more reserved in how we share what those causes are. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The right to organize and protest for what you believe in is a fundamental right that should be guaranteed by the Constitution. But we’ve seen how that right is threatened and inconsistently protected. So if you do find yourself at a protest, how should you protect yourself against surveillance? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jalsa Drinkard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Personally, I will take it off that phone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Jalsa Drinkard:, who we heard from earlier. Getting off your phone, like she recommends, might not be realistic for everyone. But there are ways to protect your digital privacy. You can disable location services for all apps, use encrypted messaging services like Signal to talk to your fellow organizers, and turn off your phone when attending protests. We’ll link some more privacy resources in the episode description. And before you post any pictures or videos online, consider some of that digital hygiene that Dr. Lee talked about. Is anyone else’s face visible in your post? Did strangers in the background consent to being recorded and posted? Staying informed about how to protect yourself from surveillance is a community effort, which is why Jalsa recommends connecting with other organizers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jalsa Drinkard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Meet up in person, and then like a good old coffee shop. That’s where a lot of the movements happened, they happened in coffee shops and libraries where there wasn’t any cameras. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The activists of the past didn’t have the tech that we have today, but they did face huge hurdles when it came to surveillance, and that didn’t stop them from organizing. Surveillance may be ingrained in American culture, but so is protesting. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since we produced this episode, there’s been a development. Rumeysa Ozturk, the Tufts student who was detained after writing an op-ed, was released after spending six weeks in a detention center in Louisiana. Okay, let’s finally, close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. Our Producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts and helps edit the show. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Special thanks to Don Bell, Jalsa Drinkard, and Nicol Turner Lee for sharing their perspectives and expertise in our Surveillance Machine series. And shout out to George Hofstetter for connecting us with Columbia’s student organizers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound design by Maya Cueva and Brendan Willard. Original Music by Chris Egusa. Additional Music by APM. Mixing and mastering by Brendan Willard. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad and Alana Walker. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager and Holly Kernan is our Chief Content Officer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Support for this program comes from Birong Hu and supporters of the KQED Studios Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you have feedback or a topic you think we should cover, hit us up at CloseAllTabs@KQED.org. Follow us on Instagram @CloseAllTabsPod or drop it on Discord. We’re in the Close All Tabs channel at discord.gg/KQED. And if you’re enjoying the show, give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you use. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "The Surveillance Machine, Pt 2: No Opt-Out | KQED",
"description": "Think you can opt out of surveillance? Think again. Our locations, behaviors, and images are being tracked at unprecedented levels — and private tech companies are at the center, selling that information directly to the government. In this episode, Morgan talks with Nicol Turner Lee, Director of the Center for Technology Innovation at The Brookings Institution, about why avoiding identification in public spaces is almost impossible, and how civilians are now helping do the government’s work by surveilling each other.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Think you can opt out of surveillance? Think again. Our locations, behaviors, and images are being tracked at unprecedented levels — and private tech companies are at the center, selling that information directly to the government. In this episode, Morgan talks with Nicol Turner Lee, Director of the Center for Technology Innovation at The Brookings Institution, about why avoiding identification in public spaces is almost impossible, and how civilians are now helping do the government’s work by surveilling each other.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC2447886762\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jalsa Drinkard, Columbia University student and an organizer for Columbia University Apartheid Divest, CUAD\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pogo.org/about/people/don-bell\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don Bell\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, policy counsel at The Constitution Project at The Project On Government Oversight, POGO\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.brookings.edu/people/nicol-turner-lee/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nicol Turner Lee\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Director of the Center for Technology Innovation at The Brookings Institution\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.vox.com/politics/410125/canary-mission-the-pro-israel-group-taking-credit-for-student-deportation-explained\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This pro-Israel group keeps a blacklist. Now it’s taking credit for deportations.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Zack Beauchamp, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Vox\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2025/04/privacy-map-how-states-are-fighting-location-surveillance\">Privacy on the Map: How States Are Fighting Location Surveillance\u003c/a> — Rindala Alajaji, \u003ci>Electronic Freedom Foundation\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.brookings.edu/articles/police-surveillance-and-facial-recognition-why-data-privacy-is-an-imperative-for-communities-of-color/\">Police surveillance and facial recognition: Why data privacy is imperative for communities of color\u003c/a> — Nicol Turner Lee and Caitlin Chin-Rothmann, \u003ci>Brookings Institute\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.notus.org/technology/cell-phone-tracking-law-enforcement-abortion-clinic\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s Possible to Track Someone’s Personal Phone to an Abortion Clinic. And It’s Legal Too.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Byron Tau, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NOTUS\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong data-start=\"111\" data-end=\"144\">Planning to attend a protest?\u003c/strong> Check out the Electronic Frontier Foundation’s \u003ca class=\"cursor-pointer\" target=\"_new\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"192\" data-end=\"270\">\u003cem data-start=\"193\" data-end=\"214\">Attending a Protest\u003c/em> guide\u003c/a> for practical digital security tips to help protect your privacy and data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A quick heads up before we start. This is part two of our deep dive on the government surveillance of protest movements. It’ll make more sense if you start with last week’s episode, which explains how we got here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In that episode, we covered the history of American surveillance and how dragnet surveillance became the norm. Dragnet surveillance, if you remember, is where the government tracks everyone, like a giant net scooping up all our information. But what does that look like in practice? What tools are being used to monitor protests? And how does all of this impact our right to free speech? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, let’s jump back in. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jalsa Drinkard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This was an actual act of digital violence towards our students. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last time, we met Jalsa Drinkard, a student organizer and senior at Columbia University, who served as security during the weeks-long encampment protesting the school’s financial ties with Israel. As the university began cracking down on students through disciplinary actions like expulsions and suspensions, she says many students were caught off guard by the kind of evidence that was presented. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jalsa Drinkard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of people’s social media accounts were cited at their disciplinary hearings when they were called in to kind of discuss their case. It’s definitely being looked at and collected. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the year since, students who attend protests, or even just express solidarity with Palestinians on social media, have been disciplined or doxed, which means their private information was leaked online. And some now face deportation. It’s a drastic escalation, not only in monitoring what people post, but also in punishing them for it. And that’s raising alarm bells for free speech activists. Though surveillance using social media is now reaching an extreme, it’s been in use for over a decade. Let’s look back at that time and open a new tab. Protests in the 2010s. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Protesters: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t shoot! Accountable. Don’t shoot! Held accountable. Don’t shoot! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was from the Black Lives Matter protests in Ferguson, Missouri, after a white police officer shot and killed an unarmed black teenager, Michael Brown, in 2014. And then in 2016, an ACLU investigation revealed that Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram had all shared user data with a company called Geofeedia. That company analyzes social media posts and then groups them by location. Media outlets use the service to spot breaking news stories, and businesses use it for marketing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But as the ACLU discovered, Geofeedia also marketed this tool to law enforcement agencies as a way to monitor protests. Intelligence agencies had been surveilling and apprehending Black Lives Matter activists as early as 2014. This investigation showed that private companies were also aiding in surveillance. After that ACLU report came out, those social media companies cut off Geofeedia. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This investigation coincided with a period of privacy reform. It was right after Edward Snowden blew the whistle on the NSA’s mass surveillance program. Congress had just passed a new law to curb the government’s mass data collection. And a few years later, the Supreme Court ruled that the government couldn’t go around demanding that companies hand over your data without a warrant. Except there’s a glaring loophole here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The government can’t demand your data, But there’s nothing stopping them from buying it. And that’s exactly what’s been happening. In the last decade, protest surveillance has become even more intrusive, thanks to this partnership between private tech companies and the government. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A controversial social media surveillance tool has been helping the Los Angeles Police Department monitor Gaza protests. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amnesty International TikTok: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here we are at the end of the route, and as you can see from the map, my face has been scanned every step of the way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hampton Law YouTube: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These data brokers, they market and sell directly to the government. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is what we’re calling “the surveillance machine,” because it’s not just the government acting alone. Let’s break down how this machine works and how it’s used to target political speech, starting with this: the government is collecting a lot more of your data than you probably realize. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">New tab, data as surveillance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The industry of collecting and selling data is incredibly lucrative. Companies want data for things like credit checks or targeted advertising. This commodification of our personal information is known as surveillance capitalism, a phrase popularized by Harvard professor Shoshana Zuboff. That legal loophole that we talked about earlier, the one where the government partners with private tech companies, it functions because of this system of surveillance capitalism. It’s what allows the government to obtain our data and paint this very detailed picture of us, all without a warrant. It’s all thanks to key players in the system — data brokers. They’re the middlemen. They collect tons of personal information and then they sell it off to whoever can pay, including law enforcement. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s like, rather than the police getting a warrant to search your apartment, they just give the landlord an envelope of cash and the landlord lets them into the apartment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is surveillance policy expert Don Bell. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now that’s basically the same thing that’s happening with your phone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know that pop-up you get when you visit a website asking to allow cookies? Or sometimes when you open a new app and it asks for permission to use your location and run in the background? These are all ways that data brokers glean information from your daily commute to what time you exercise to the ads that grab your attention when you’re scrolling in the middle of the night. Each of these pieces of data is a little building block that starts to tell data brokers who you are. Like individual pixels that, eventually, make a full portrait of you and your life. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Large data brokers are able to sell essentially dossiers which contain thousands of data points on any given individual. It could be the doctors that you go to, the places of worship that you go to the protests that you go to, the people that you’re intimate with. It can create this complete picture of who you are, what your beliefs are, what your associations are. And in the hands of a government that aims to surveil and target people, that is extraordinarily dangerous. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the government has used this data broker loophole to surveil groups all over the United States, especially over the last few years. The military, for example, monitored Muslim communities in 2020 by buying location data sourced from a Muslim prayer app. In 2022, ICE got around sanctuary city policies by using information from data brokers to identify and deport undocumented immigrants. One data broker contracted with the government offers a tool called LocateX, which uses location data to track and potentially identify anyone who crossed state lines to visit abortion clinics. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You don’t get that mass surveillance on the scale that we are seeing without some sort of cooperation between ad tech and the private sector and the public sector. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After social media companies cut off access for Geofeedia in 2016, countless other companies took its place. One of those was Dataminr, a surveillance company that uses AI to scour social media sites. It’s alerted law enforcement to Black Lives Matter marches, pro-choice rallies, and most recently, protests in solidarity with Gaza. Dataminr often contacted police departments directly, warning them about the precise time and location of protests. These surveillance tools are now being used to punish people for what they say online, a right that’s protected under the First Amendment, specifically our right to free speech. And like we talked about in last week’s episode, the Trump administration is surveilling international students’ social media accounts. Political speech is now grounds for deportation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>ABC News: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tonight, international students at colleges and universities around the country reeling. The federal government revoking a number of visas with little to no warning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you notice that there are people in your class who are effectively disappearing because of their beliefs, you may be far less likely to express your beliefs online. And in doing so, you are seeing the suppression of First Amendment activities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There have been attempts to crack down on data brokers. Some members of Congress are now rallying behind “The Fourth Amendment is Not for Sale Act.” Remember, the Fourth Amendment protects people from, quote, unreasonable searches and seizures, end quote. Their proposed law would ban the government from buying data without a warrant, effectively closing this data broker loophole. It passed the House last year, but it still needs to go through the Senate. And then the president would have to sign it into law. But given the current administration’s recent actions, Don isn’t optimistic that’ll happen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The thing that worries me enormously is this administration and this national moment is very different from any other moment. If this kind of authoritarian push continues, it’s going to be exceptionally hard to first stop it and then build something that truly protects the constitutional and privacy and civil liberties of all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And here’s the thing with data collection — keeping tabs on our behavior and connections? It’s only one part of the surveillance machine. Even if you ditched your phone and pretty much every other device, your privacy would still be at risk because the moment you step into a public space, your face is being tracked. We’ll get more into that after this break. Let’s get back to the story. New tab, facial recognition for sale. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicol Turner Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not that old, so I want people to know I did not march in the Civil Rights Movement, right? But I am a student of history when it comes to social movements and civil rights. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dr. Nicol Turner Lee is a senior fellow in governance studies and the director of the Center for Technology Innovation at the Brookings Institution. Dr. Lee researches how technology shapes social justice movements and pointed out that today’s activists are more visible than ever, which means they’re easier to surveil. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicol Turner Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Back then, the tools that we used, like the telephone, you couldn’t see anybody, right? The telephone tree to tell people to show up in, you know, 25, 25, 35th Street, because we’re gonna march on that day. No one knew who was on the other line of the telephone line. You just knew you were getting a call to show up. But just like today, I just saw on social media, there’s gonna be some protest happening over the weekend, right, and it’s all over social media where it is, who’s showing up. It’s this double-edged sword, like activists do need a space in this burgeoning information economy, but they also need some protection that government, who is supposed to protect our democracy, is not going to use that against them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Social media is fodder for facial recognition technology, which works by analyzing images and matching faces with similar features. The technology is problematic. Studies have shown that it misidentifies black people and other people of color at a higher rate than white people. Still, it’s one of the major tools of modern surveillance, particularly when it comes to protests. During the 2020 Black Lives Matter protests, The NYPD used facial recognition to identify, locate, and attempt to arrest an activist without a warrant. The police cited the activist’s Instagram account in their reports, which is becoming the norm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicol Turner Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As this technology becomes much more embedded outside of protected law enforcement environments where it’s being used for investigation. We are now seeing facial recognition to analyze faces on social media, whether that’s the individual or the bystander in the photo. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of this has pushed students protesting for Gaza last year to be more diligent about covering their faces. But now, some universities are facing pressure to deploy facial recognition tools on campus and have banned face masks to discourage protests, especially pro-Palestine activity. Private businesses are also facing pressure to cooperate with facial recognition programs. And it’s especially difficult to opt out of being identified because of the sheer number of cameras in public spaces. They’re everywhere. They’re at traffic lights, public CCTV, and guarding private businesses and homes. Footage from dash cams and police body cams can also feed into these databases. If you’ve ever gotten a driver’s license or gone through airport security, your face is definitely in a database. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicol Turner Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I always say to people, “well, do I mind that there are cameras on the subway system? Probably not, because I’m probably not going to do something quite egregious on the subway system. But when somebody knocks on my door, am I going to feel different?” And unfortunately, disproportionately, people of color tend to be the ones whose doors are knocked on, because there’s a higher likelihood of some type of institutional interaction where they are in somebody’s database. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And once again, private tech companies are the key to facial recognition surveillance. The Black Lives Matter activist we mentioned earlier? The NYPD used one of these third party companies to identify him using his Instagram. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicol Turner Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What third-party companies have done is that they’ve actually engaged in what I call “massive wholesale scraping,” meaning they’re able to identify us in a variety of contexts, both personal and professional. And those images are sort of sold back to the federal government so that they can maintain those databases and those images. I mean, there’s a lot of central intelligence that is basically creeping up across the entire country. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a handful of states, residents have some recourse if they don’t want their face to appear in facial recognition databases. But those protections are inconsistent and the process of requesting deletion is convoluted. You have to make these requests to each company individually and you may have to repeat the process because there’s no opting out of being included again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicol Turner Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the absence of privacy legislation at the federal and state level, guess what? My mother used to say this all the time. “If you’re not in the kitchen, you’re on the menu.” So we are all on the menu, even though we think we live in a society where there’s some level of privacy, maybe in the context of our living rooms. In actuality, when you leave your home and you walk out that door, you are actually in a surveillance capitalist society. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So private tech companies are helping the government get around privacy laws and making a profit off of it. But even if we passed stronger laws and closed that legal loophole, it still might not be enough because the reality is, we’ve been surveilling each other for a long time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, let’s open one last tab, doxing as surveillance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This practice of tattling on each other has been gaining steam online for years. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Think of the seemingly innocuous ways that people are shamed on social media for what others perceive as bad behavior. Maybe they ghosted a new relationship and their bitter ex posted their hinge profile to warn others. Or someone Karen-ed out too hard at a restaurant and their outburst at a server was recorded and went viral. People have been doxxed for less. And now, These public shaming practices are weaponized as a surveillance tactic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicol Turner Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t think that people submit to participate on these platforms with the expectation that their information will be used to target them and to weaponize them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What makes this part of the surveillance machine different is that it’s civilians leading it, doing the work of monitoring political speech for the government, like in the case of Rumeysa Ozturk. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Al Jazeera: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">30-Year-old rumeysa Ozturk was on her way to break her Ramadan fast with friends on Tuesday when six plain-clothed officers approached her. The neighbor who captured the arrest on surveillance video described it as a kidnapping. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rumeysa is a Turkish student pursuing a PhD at Tufts University. Last year, she co-authored an op-ed in the school paper, which criticized the school’s response to student protests and described the war in Gaza as a genocide. Then, in March, she was doxed. A pro-Israel organization called Canary Mission added Rumeysa to their blacklist. They posted her name, face, and work history on their site and accused her of anti-Isreal activism, citing last year’s op-ed. Weeks later, her visa was revoked and she was arrested. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Canary Mission claims credit for her arrest and those of other visa holders who face deportation for supporting Palestinians. The organization maintains a database of publicly available dossiers on people who they consider anti-Israel or anti-Zionist, including Jewish academics. People have been harassed, threatened, and fired after being doxed on the site. And since the president signed the executive order targeting international students for protesting, Canary Mission has singled out visa holders and other legal U.S. Residents in a new section of their site, calling for deportations. This kind of civilian-led surveillance is especially alarming to legal experts like Dr. Lee. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicol Turner Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was a student against apartheid when I was in college, and I was a student urging our university to divest. That is just as similar to what we’re seeing in many of the pro-Palestinian movements with regards to, you know, just some of the things that we’re witnessing on the university campus, where students have, I guess, an implicit understanding that they are protected because they’re in a space of intellectual freedom. To have that happen is just very sad and disturbing. But then the second thing is like, not only the government’s doing it, but we as citizens are helping the governments do that to our fellow citizens. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Other civilian-led surveillance groups go even further. Betar U.S., the American branch of a Zionist nationalist youth movement, boasted that they’ve sent deportation lists to the Trump administration. They also claimed credit for the arrest of Mahmoud Khalil, the Syrian-born Columbia student who faces deportation for his involvement in the protests. One of the facial recognition tools Betar uses purports that it can identify protesters even if they’re masked. The tool works by scraping countless photos off of people’s social media accounts. And the developer, Eliyahu Hawila, says he plans to license it to other pro-Israel groups. Here he is, speaking to the Associated Press. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eliyahu Hawila: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean if they’re wearing masks they’re trying to hide. But then you ask yourself, “Oh well if you’re proud of yourself and like you don’t think you’re doing anything illegal then why are you hiding your face?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Civil liberties organizations have been fighting to regulate the government’s partnerships with surveillance tech companies. But when civilians use the same technology to dox each other, that’s uncharted territory. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicol Turner Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The fact that there is a level of implicit consent that that media could also be sent to law enforcement is quite troubling. But it does set up a really terrible precedent if we say that people’s freedom of speech and points of view can be targeted. And we do it in a way that we don’t equally apply that standard to other movements. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s no expectation of privacy in public spaces anymore. We’ve gotten into the habit of recording everything about our lives and the people around us. Even if you don’t use social media, your face could end up in the background of someone else’s Instagram story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicol Turner Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For years we’ve sort of dealt with what’s called “bystander theory” and there’s been a lot of research done on that. You know, tech companies have worked hard over the years to get bystanders to opt in to being in people’s photos. But sometimes you don’t know who that person is. Like I know I’m very mindful myself if I have a photo and I see like these random people in there of like cropping the photo to kind of get them out. But that type of hygiene is not necessarily part of everybody’s toolkit. We take photos and we have a host of people that sit in those photos, and then all of a sudden that person shows up again in somebody’s criminal database or may not have anything to do with what you were doing at this scene, but they’re still sort of pulled into, as my mama would say, your drama. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of this doxing and surveillance could have dire consequences for not only our right to the freedom of speech, but also our willingness to engage in any political issue, both online and in real life. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicol Turner Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But at the same time, does that mean that we’re going to have folks that are too afraid to post about things other than pilates on many of these platforms? And what does that world look like in the next five to ten years if people feel that it’s just not safe to say what you want to say, not just on social media, but generally? Right? Like if you’re a bystander at a meeting, you’re probably going to be targeted. A speech that you might have made at church, you know, could be picked up by somebody who recorded it, shared it in some way or form, and now they’re coming at you and your three degrees removed from it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The surveillance machine is massive. Between the data collection, facial recognition, and doxing campaigns, protesting can feel more dangerous than ever. But if it’s any comfort, Dr. Lee doesn’t think that people will stop exercising their rights. Activists have weathered surveillance before and figured out ways around it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicol Turner Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I think about the ancestors of people who gave me the right to sit here on this podcast with you and get the education that I have, they believed in something and they didn’t allow that surveillance to break up their social movements, which would be considered the civil rights movement, which led to great policy. So I’m gonna put that out there. I think that that’s not going to minimize how people organize. It’s just gonna influence how their tactics may change. But if you’re a truly engaged activist, the government already has data on you. You know, surveillance is not new to America, and to the world. It is part of capitalism. You know no amount of scrutiny should stop us from wanting to actually elevate good causes and to work in the public interest. It only means that we have to be smarter and we have be more reserved in how we share what those causes are. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The right to organize and protest for what you believe in is a fundamental right that should be guaranteed by the Constitution. But we’ve seen how that right is threatened and inconsistently protected. So if you do find yourself at a protest, how should you protect yourself against surveillance? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jalsa Drinkard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Personally, I will take it off that phone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Jalsa Drinkard:, who we heard from earlier. Getting off your phone, like she recommends, might not be realistic for everyone. But there are ways to protect your digital privacy. You can disable location services for all apps, use encrypted messaging services like Signal to talk to your fellow organizers, and turn off your phone when attending protests. We’ll link some more privacy resources in the episode description. And before you post any pictures or videos online, consider some of that digital hygiene that Dr. Lee talked about. Is anyone else’s face visible in your post? Did strangers in the background consent to being recorded and posted? Staying informed about how to protect yourself from surveillance is a community effort, which is why Jalsa recommends connecting with other organizers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jalsa Drinkard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Meet up in person, and then like a good old coffee shop. That’s where a lot of the movements happened, they happened in coffee shops and libraries where there wasn’t any cameras. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The activists of the past didn’t have the tech that we have today, but they did face huge hurdles when it came to surveillance, and that didn’t stop them from organizing. Surveillance may be ingrained in American culture, but so is protesting. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since we produced this episode, there’s been a development. Rumeysa Ozturk, the Tufts student who was detained after writing an op-ed, was released after spending six weeks in a detention center in Louisiana. Okay, let’s finally, close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. Our Producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts and helps edit the show. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Special thanks to Don Bell, Jalsa Drinkard, and Nicol Turner Lee for sharing their perspectives and expertise in our Surveillance Machine series. And shout out to George Hofstetter for connecting us with Columbia’s student organizers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound design by Maya Cueva and Brendan Willard. Original Music by Chris Egusa. Additional Music by APM. Mixing and mastering by Brendan Willard. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad and Alana Walker. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager and Holly Kernan is our Chief Content Officer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Support for this program comes from Birong Hu and supporters of the KQED Studios Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you have feedback or a topic you think we should cover, hit us up at CloseAllTabs@KQED.org. Follow us on Instagram @CloseAllTabsPod or drop it on Discord. We’re in the Close All Tabs channel at discord.gg/KQED. And if you’re enjoying the show, give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you use. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>For children and teenagers feeling anxious and alienated from their peers and adults, AI companion chatbots can \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1996504/ai-replace-therapist-benefits-risks-unsettling-truths\">mimic the human compassion\u003c/a> they’re longing for.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They’re also available 24/7. However, for parents, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038154/kids-talking-ai-companion-chatbots-stanford-researchers-say-thats-bad-idea\">reported\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12034490/ai-companions-seductive-risk-teens-senators-want-more-guardrails\">dangers\u003c/a> of AI companion chatbots are alarming. At least \u003ca href=\"https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/25248089-megan-garcia-vs-character-ai/\">one parent has sued\u003c/a>, alleging \u003ca href=\"https://www.cnn.com/2024/10/30/tech/teen-suicide-character-ai-lawsuit\">her 14-year-old son was encouraged to take his own life\u003c/a> last year by a chatbot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jump straight to: \u003ca href=\"#ExpertadvicefortalkingtokidsaboutAIchatbots\">Expert advice for talking to kids about AI chatbots\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Regulatory solutions have yet to materialize, but the California legislature is considering \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB243\">State Bill 243\u003c/a>, introduced by Sen. Steve Padilla, D-San Diego and soon to be heard in the Senate Appropriations committee, that would require chatbot operators to implement critical safeguards to protect users from the addictive, isolating and influential aspects of AI chatbots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a \u003ca href=\"https://ncdoj.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/54-State-Ags-Urge-Study-of-AI-and-harmful-impacts-on-Children.pdf\">2023 letter\u003c/a>, 54 state attorneys general from both political parties urged Congress to act.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are engaged in a race against time to protect the children of our country from the dangers of AI,” they wrote. “The proverbial walls of the city have already been breached. Now is the time to act. ”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But if you’re a parent or caregiver whose child uses an AI chatbot — or wants to try one — how can you talk to them about the risks? That’s where human professionals can help. KQED reached out to experts, who’ve offered parents five key pieces of guidance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jump straight to: \u003ca href=\"#Wheretofindhumanledsupportforkids\">Where to find human-led support for kids\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"ExpertadvicefortalkingtokidsaboutAIchatbots\">\u003c/a>Start with listening, rather than telling kids what to do\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>It’s natural for kids to be curious, said Vicki Harrison, Program Director for Stanford University’s Center for Youth Mental Health and Wellbeing, who has two teenagers, ages 13 and 15.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12038155\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-12038155\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/250429-Kids-and-Chatbots-01-KQED-800x645.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"645\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/250429-Kids-and-Chatbots-01-KQED-800x645.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/250429-Kids-and-Chatbots-01-KQED-1020x823.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/250429-Kids-and-Chatbots-01-KQED-160x129.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/250429-Kids-and-Chatbots-01-KQED.jpg 1028w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Younger children may struggle with the distinction between fantasy and reality, tweens may be vulnerable to parasocial attachment, and teens may use social AI companions to avoid the challenges of building and sustaining real relationships. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Common Sense Media and Stanford's Brainstorm Lab for Mental Health Innovation)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Harrison sympathizes with parents whose first inclination is to panic and demand their child delete the app, but adds, don’t do it. “’Cause they’re not going to ever tell you anything again if you react that way.” She encourages parents to approach the conversation with curiosity instead, even though she acknowledges this is easier said than done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If we’re coming in fearful, they’re going to go into a reactive space, and they’re going to want to defend themselves, because they already feel insecure and self-conscious,” said \u003ca href=\"https://www.healingwithmindfulness.com\">Laurie Cousins\u003c/a>, a certified mindfulness teacher who works with children and families in Los Angeles. She also has two children, both now in college.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Both Harrison and Cousins recommend approaching the conversation about AI companions by bringing up \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038154/kids-talking-ai-companion-chatbots-stanford-researchers-say-thats-bad-idea\">recent news stories\u003c/a>, because it’s clear to the children that they aren’t personally in trouble.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cousins suggests sharing what you learned and asking open-ended questions. These could include: ‘I was curious because I found out this. Do you know anything about that?’”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Help your kids understand how AI companion chatbots take advantage of human wiring\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>AI models don’t “understand” emotions the way humans do. They recognize and respond to textual cues learned from processing massive amounts of data gleaned from past conversations, interaction with therapists and therapy-focused websites, as well as random advice found online on platforms like Reddit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We all want, but especially the primitive parts of us, want to feel in control,” Cousins said about the way humans respond to companion chatbots, adding, “Our dopamine receptors are firing, and the oxytocin is firing in the way that it feels relational, it feels like a positive reinforcement.”[aside postID=news_12038154 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/StanfordStudyAIChatbotsKidsGetty-1020x680.jpg']Adults with some self-awareness of their own mental health struggles and personal history might be able to course correct when a companion chatbot fails to pick up on signs of depression, anxiety, ADHD and the like — and when it either affirms ideas ungrounded in reality, or encourages risky behavior in real life. Children often don’t have that self-awareness, and may not understand how some of the interactions they’re asking for may be damaging to their mental health.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“\u003ca href=\"https://www.stanfordchildrens.org/en/topic/default?id=understanding-the-teen-brain-1-3051\">Adolescents are in the emotional brain\u003c/a>, right?” Cousins said. “It’s not that they don’t have wisdom. They’re so flooded with emotions and maybe don’t have that risk-averse wisdom yet. Parents say, ‘What were you thinking?’ Well, they weren’t thinking.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Additionally, knowing intellectually that software is designed to emotionally manipulate users into maintaining engagement is not the same thing as those users being able to control their emotional response to it, especially when they’re still developing their sense of identity, connection and belonging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cousins also suggests sharing with your kids — in an age-appropriate fashion — that companion chatbots are developed by companies with a profit-seeking motive. You could also explain to them that the companies behind the chatbots are likely sharing or selling all sorts of personal data, given that they are not bound by the same \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/phlp/php/resources/health-insurance-portability-and-accountability-act-of-1996-hipaa.html\">privacy laws\u003c/a> as human therapists.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Model the kind of healthy human relationships you want your child to emulate\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Whether it’s speaking kindly to a cashier at a store, joining sports leagues, or attending cultural events, Cousins argues parents need to show their children how to relate to other people. “That’s how we feel safer in community, in society, is when we feel we’re relating with one another.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But that may require adults to address their own habits, given how digitally dependent we’ve all become.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You and I know the ‘before times.’ We know that it’s possible to interact in the world without chatbots, without googling everything,” Harrison said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Children, not so much. Increasingly, it’s difficult for all of us to avoid chatbots of one kind or another. “I’m slightly alarmed, being in Silicon Valley, just how prevalent AI has become. We’re unleashing it into the world regardless of the consequences.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One idea is to encourage kids to make eye contact with others by modeling it yourself. “They need to see that someone is giving them eye contact, that’s meeting them,” Cousins said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Keep an eye on how much time your child spends staring at a screen\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Harrison urges parents to “scaffold” access to digital devices. For instance, rather than handing a smartphone to a child on their tenth or twelfth birthday, “maybe start with a not-so-smart phone, maybe only approve one app at a time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Harrison adds that parents can create family media plans and agreements and get their kids’ buy-in. “‘OK, here’s a new responsibility. Here’s my expectations of how you’re going to use it. If you want more privilege, you have to agree to use it in a certain kind of way.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11789507\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11789507 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/12/cellphone-1920.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1281\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/12/cellphone-1920.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/12/cellphone-1920-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/12/cellphone-1920-800x534.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/12/cellphone-1920-1020x681.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/12/cellphone-1920-1200x801.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Parents play an active role in managing screen time by setting clear boundaries — like approving apps individually — and involving kids in family media plans to build healthy habits early. \u003ccite>(Chandan Khanna/AFP via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Cousins recommends periodically spot-checking the histories on children’s devices — at least, until they figure out how to delete their histories. But she also recommends parents monitor the amount of time children spend staring at a screen, regardless of whether they’re interacting with humans or not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ve worked with young people who are gaming all through the night and going to school with two hours of sleep. That’s a dependency, right? That’s an addiction. I’m saying to the parents, ‘Why do you have this in their room?’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She argues responsible parenting means setting boundaries, likening digital dependency to an itch. Scratching the itch doesn’t cure the bite or the rash, but inflames both the itch and the urge to continue scratching it. “You got a big dopamine dump and now you’re chasing it, you know?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In response to a recent report from Common Sense Media and Stanford researchers \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038154/kids-talking-ai-companion-chatbots-stanford-researchers-say-thats-bad-idea\">raising the alarm\u003c/a> about minors using AI companion chatbots, a CharacterAI spokesperson wrote KQED, “Banning a new technology for teenagers has never been an effective approach — not when it was tried with video games, the internet, or movies containing violence.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That said, the company delivers a \u003ca href=\"https://character.ai/safety/teen-safety\">specialized version\u003c/a> of its large language model to 13–18 year olds. Among other things, this model includes a time-spent notification that notifies children if they have spent an hour on the platform.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Wheretofindhumanledsupportforkids\">\u003c/a>Seek out additional human resources\u003c/h2>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://allcove.org\">\u003cstrong>allcove\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>A free, welcoming space for youth ages 12–25, developed originally in Australia and now growing across the U.S., including locations in the Bay Area. Think of it as a “one-stop shop” offering mental health support, physical care, peer counseling, and help with substance abuse.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.commonsensemedia.org\">Common Sense Media\u003cbr>\n\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>The nonprofit provides independent, age-based reviews, ratings, and advice for parents, caregivers, and educators about media and technology for children and teens. It covers movies, TV shows, books, video games, apps, websites, and even TikTok and YouTube channels.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://badassgirls.me\">\u003cstrong>Bad Ass Girls\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>An empowering mentorship and community program for preteen and teen girls. It’s built to help them explore confidence, connection, and emotional wellness through guided support and real talk.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.goodformedia.org\">\u003cstrong>#GoodforMEdia\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>This is a youth-led program where teens help other teens make smart, thoughtful choices about their digital lives. It’s like having a mentor who actually understands how tricky social media can be — because they’re living it too.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://ggie.berkeley.edu\">\u003cstrong>Greater Good in Education\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>A thoughtful collection of research-based articles, tips, and newsletters for parents and educators. Created by the Greater Good Science Center at UC Berkeley, it focuses on emotional well-being, mindfulness, and building empathy in young people.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://solunaapp.com\">\u003cstrong>Soluna \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>Free for youth in California, this app offers mental health tools, mood tracking, and direct access to counselors. A great option for teens who might not feel ready to talk in person but still need support.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.teenline.org\">\u003cstrong>Teenline\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>Teens everywhere can talk or text with trained teen volunteers. It’s anonymous and especially helpful for teens who feel more comfortable opening up to peers.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.childrenandscreens.org\">\u003cstrong>Children and screens\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\nA national nonprofit based in D.C. that offers an “Ask the Experts” series written with parents in mind — full of clear, science-backed tips.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>For children and teenagers feeling anxious and alienated from their peers and adults, AI companion chatbots can \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1996504/ai-replace-therapist-benefits-risks-unsettling-truths\">mimic the human compassion\u003c/a> they’re longing for.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They’re also available 24/7. However, for parents, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038154/kids-talking-ai-companion-chatbots-stanford-researchers-say-thats-bad-idea\">reported\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12034490/ai-companions-seductive-risk-teens-senators-want-more-guardrails\">dangers\u003c/a> of AI companion chatbots are alarming. At least \u003ca href=\"https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/25248089-megan-garcia-vs-character-ai/\">one parent has sued\u003c/a>, alleging \u003ca href=\"https://www.cnn.com/2024/10/30/tech/teen-suicide-character-ai-lawsuit\">her 14-year-old son was encouraged to take his own life\u003c/a> last year by a chatbot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jump straight to: \u003ca href=\"#ExpertadvicefortalkingtokidsaboutAIchatbots\">Expert advice for talking to kids about AI chatbots\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Regulatory solutions have yet to materialize, but the California legislature is considering \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB243\">State Bill 243\u003c/a>, introduced by Sen. Steve Padilla, D-San Diego and soon to be heard in the Senate Appropriations committee, that would require chatbot operators to implement critical safeguards to protect users from the addictive, isolating and influential aspects of AI chatbots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a \u003ca href=\"https://ncdoj.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/54-State-Ags-Urge-Study-of-AI-and-harmful-impacts-on-Children.pdf\">2023 letter\u003c/a>, 54 state attorneys general from both political parties urged Congress to act.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are engaged in a race against time to protect the children of our country from the dangers of AI,” they wrote. “The proverbial walls of the city have already been breached. Now is the time to act. ”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But if you’re a parent or caregiver whose child uses an AI chatbot — or wants to try one — how can you talk to them about the risks? That’s where human professionals can help. KQED reached out to experts, who’ve offered parents five key pieces of guidance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Jump straight to: \u003ca href=\"#Wheretofindhumanledsupportforkids\">Where to find human-led support for kids\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"ExpertadvicefortalkingtokidsaboutAIchatbots\">\u003c/a>Start with listening, rather than telling kids what to do\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>It’s natural for kids to be curious, said Vicki Harrison, Program Director for Stanford University’s Center for Youth Mental Health and Wellbeing, who has two teenagers, ages 13 and 15.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12038155\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-12038155\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/250429-Kids-and-Chatbots-01-KQED-800x645.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"645\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/250429-Kids-and-Chatbots-01-KQED-800x645.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/250429-Kids-and-Chatbots-01-KQED-1020x823.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/250429-Kids-and-Chatbots-01-KQED-160x129.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/250429-Kids-and-Chatbots-01-KQED.jpg 1028w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Younger children may struggle with the distinction between fantasy and reality, tweens may be vulnerable to parasocial attachment, and teens may use social AI companions to avoid the challenges of building and sustaining real relationships. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Common Sense Media and Stanford's Brainstorm Lab for Mental Health Innovation)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Harrison sympathizes with parents whose first inclination is to panic and demand their child delete the app, but adds, don’t do it. “’Cause they’re not going to ever tell you anything again if you react that way.” She encourages parents to approach the conversation with curiosity instead, even though she acknowledges this is easier said than done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If we’re coming in fearful, they’re going to go into a reactive space, and they’re going to want to defend themselves, because they already feel insecure and self-conscious,” said \u003ca href=\"https://www.healingwithmindfulness.com\">Laurie Cousins\u003c/a>, a certified mindfulness teacher who works with children and families in Los Angeles. She also has two children, both now in college.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Both Harrison and Cousins recommend approaching the conversation about AI companions by bringing up \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038154/kids-talking-ai-companion-chatbots-stanford-researchers-say-thats-bad-idea\">recent news stories\u003c/a>, because it’s clear to the children that they aren’t personally in trouble.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cousins suggests sharing what you learned and asking open-ended questions. These could include: ‘I was curious because I found out this. Do you know anything about that?’”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Help your kids understand how AI companion chatbots take advantage of human wiring\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>AI models don’t “understand” emotions the way humans do. They recognize and respond to textual cues learned from processing massive amounts of data gleaned from past conversations, interaction with therapists and therapy-focused websites, as well as random advice found online on platforms like Reddit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We all want, but especially the primitive parts of us, want to feel in control,” Cousins said about the way humans respond to companion chatbots, adding, “Our dopamine receptors are firing, and the oxytocin is firing in the way that it feels relational, it feels like a positive reinforcement.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Adults with some self-awareness of their own mental health struggles and personal history might be able to course correct when a companion chatbot fails to pick up on signs of depression, anxiety, ADHD and the like — and when it either affirms ideas ungrounded in reality, or encourages risky behavior in real life. Children often don’t have that self-awareness, and may not understand how some of the interactions they’re asking for may be damaging to their mental health.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“\u003ca href=\"https://www.stanfordchildrens.org/en/topic/default?id=understanding-the-teen-brain-1-3051\">Adolescents are in the emotional brain\u003c/a>, right?” Cousins said. “It’s not that they don’t have wisdom. They’re so flooded with emotions and maybe don’t have that risk-averse wisdom yet. Parents say, ‘What were you thinking?’ Well, they weren’t thinking.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Additionally, knowing intellectually that software is designed to emotionally manipulate users into maintaining engagement is not the same thing as those users being able to control their emotional response to it, especially when they’re still developing their sense of identity, connection and belonging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cousins also suggests sharing with your kids — in an age-appropriate fashion — that companion chatbots are developed by companies with a profit-seeking motive. You could also explain to them that the companies behind the chatbots are likely sharing or selling all sorts of personal data, given that they are not bound by the same \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/phlp/php/resources/health-insurance-portability-and-accountability-act-of-1996-hipaa.html\">privacy laws\u003c/a> as human therapists.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Model the kind of healthy human relationships you want your child to emulate\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Whether it’s speaking kindly to a cashier at a store, joining sports leagues, or attending cultural events, Cousins argues parents need to show their children how to relate to other people. “That’s how we feel safer in community, in society, is when we feel we’re relating with one another.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But that may require adults to address their own habits, given how digitally dependent we’ve all become.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You and I know the ‘before times.’ We know that it’s possible to interact in the world without chatbots, without googling everything,” Harrison said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Children, not so much. Increasingly, it’s difficult for all of us to avoid chatbots of one kind or another. “I’m slightly alarmed, being in Silicon Valley, just how prevalent AI has become. We’re unleashing it into the world regardless of the consequences.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One idea is to encourage kids to make eye contact with others by modeling it yourself. “They need to see that someone is giving them eye contact, that’s meeting them,” Cousins said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Keep an eye on how much time your child spends staring at a screen\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Harrison urges parents to “scaffold” access to digital devices. For instance, rather than handing a smartphone to a child on their tenth or twelfth birthday, “maybe start with a not-so-smart phone, maybe only approve one app at a time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Harrison adds that parents can create family media plans and agreements and get their kids’ buy-in. “‘OK, here’s a new responsibility. Here’s my expectations of how you’re going to use it. If you want more privilege, you have to agree to use it in a certain kind of way.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11789507\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11789507 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/12/cellphone-1920.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1281\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/12/cellphone-1920.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/12/cellphone-1920-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/12/cellphone-1920-800x534.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/12/cellphone-1920-1020x681.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/12/cellphone-1920-1200x801.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Parents play an active role in managing screen time by setting clear boundaries — like approving apps individually — and involving kids in family media plans to build healthy habits early. \u003ccite>(Chandan Khanna/AFP via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Cousins recommends periodically spot-checking the histories on children’s devices — at least, until they figure out how to delete their histories. But she also recommends parents monitor the amount of time children spend staring at a screen, regardless of whether they’re interacting with humans or not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ve worked with young people who are gaming all through the night and going to school with two hours of sleep. That’s a dependency, right? That’s an addiction. I’m saying to the parents, ‘Why do you have this in their room?’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She argues responsible parenting means setting boundaries, likening digital dependency to an itch. Scratching the itch doesn’t cure the bite or the rash, but inflames both the itch and the urge to continue scratching it. “You got a big dopamine dump and now you’re chasing it, you know?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In response to a recent report from Common Sense Media and Stanford researchers \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12038154/kids-talking-ai-companion-chatbots-stanford-researchers-say-thats-bad-idea\">raising the alarm\u003c/a> about minors using AI companion chatbots, a CharacterAI spokesperson wrote KQED, “Banning a new technology for teenagers has never been an effective approach — not when it was tried with video games, the internet, or movies containing violence.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That said, the company delivers a \u003ca href=\"https://character.ai/safety/teen-safety\">specialized version\u003c/a> of its large language model to 13–18 year olds. Among other things, this model includes a time-spent notification that notifies children if they have spent an hour on the platform.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Wheretofindhumanledsupportforkids\">\u003c/a>Seek out additional human resources\u003c/h2>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://allcove.org\">\u003cstrong>allcove\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>A free, welcoming space for youth ages 12–25, developed originally in Australia and now growing across the U.S., including locations in the Bay Area. Think of it as a “one-stop shop” offering mental health support, physical care, peer counseling, and help with substance abuse.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.commonsensemedia.org\">Common Sense Media\u003cbr>\n\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>The nonprofit provides independent, age-based reviews, ratings, and advice for parents, caregivers, and educators about media and technology for children and teens. It covers movies, TV shows, books, video games, apps, websites, and even TikTok and YouTube channels.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://badassgirls.me\">\u003cstrong>Bad Ass Girls\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>An empowering mentorship and community program for preteen and teen girls. It’s built to help them explore confidence, connection, and emotional wellness through guided support and real talk.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.goodformedia.org\">\u003cstrong>#GoodforMEdia\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>This is a youth-led program where teens help other teens make smart, thoughtful choices about their digital lives. It’s like having a mentor who actually understands how tricky social media can be — because they’re living it too.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://ggie.berkeley.edu\">\u003cstrong>Greater Good in Education\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>A thoughtful collection of research-based articles, tips, and newsletters for parents and educators. Created by the Greater Good Science Center at UC Berkeley, it focuses on emotional well-being, mindfulness, and building empathy in young people.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://solunaapp.com\">\u003cstrong>Soluna \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>Free for youth in California, this app offers mental health tools, mood tracking, and direct access to counselors. A great option for teens who might not feel ready to talk in person but still need support.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.teenline.org\">\u003cstrong>Teenline\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>Teens everywhere can talk or text with trained teen volunteers. It’s anonymous and especially helpful for teens who feel more comfortable opening up to peers.\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.childrenandscreens.org\">\u003cstrong>Children and screens\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\nA national nonprofit based in D.C. that offers an “Ask the Experts” series written with parents in mind — full of clear, science-backed tips.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The tools of high tech surveillance are increasingly all around us: security cameras in public and embedded in doorbells, location data on your phone, online ad tracking. A lot of this has become normalized, utterly mundane. But in the year since nationwide student protests for Palestine, heightened scrutiny of and retaliation against activists in the U.S. have raised new concerns. Government surveillance, particularly on social media, has grown exponentially since the massive Black Lives Matter protests of 2020, but the precedent in this country stretches much further back. In this episode, Columbia University student organizer Jalsa Drinkard shares her experience protecting other students from invasive surveillance and targeting, and Don Bell, policy counsel for The Constitution Project at the Project On Government Oversight, walks us through the long history of government surveillance in American protest movements, and why today’s moment feels different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC2506353620\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jalsa Drinkard, Columbia University student and an organizer for Columbia University Apartheid Divest, CUAD\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pogo.org/about/people/don-bell\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don Bell\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, policy counsel at The Constitution Project at The Project On Government Oversight, POGO\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pogo.org/analysis/protest-under-a-surveillance-state-microscope\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Protest Under a Surveillance State Microscope\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> – Don Bell, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Project On Government Oversight\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pogo.org/analysis/surveillance-policing-bodily-autonomy\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Surveillance & Policing Bodily Autonomy\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> – Don Bell, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Project On Government Oversight\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.lib.berkeley.edu/about/news/fbi\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘Discredit, disrupt, and destroy’: FBI records acquired by the Library reveal violent surveillance of Black leaders, civil rights organizations\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> – Virgie Hoban, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Berkeley Library\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.history.com/articles/how-watergate-changed-americas-intelligence-laws\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How Watergate Changed America’s Intelligence Laws\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> – Barbara Maranzani, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">History\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/04/surveillance-state-september-11-panic-made-us-vulnerable\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘Panic made us vulnerable’: how 9/11 made the US surveillance state – and the Americans who fought back\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> – Ed Pilkington, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Guardian \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jalsa Drinkard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You would wake up at like eight o’clock in the morning. There would be like bagels, people like actually making food for you. It would be students helping students. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Jalsa Drinkard. She’s a student at Columbia University and an organizer for Columbia University Apartheid Divest or CUAD. It’s a coalition of over a hundred student organizations calling for the university to cut all ties to Israel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CUAD Protester \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Disclose! Divest! We will not stop, we will not rest! Disclose! Divest! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last year, Jalsa was part of student-led protests, which culminated in a weeks-long encampment on campus. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, Columbia University says they will not divest from Israel and have not reached an agreement with protesters as demonstrations continue. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jalsa Drinkard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was really like a community space. Sometimes you would hear like a violin playing, like students would bring their instruments, like kind of just like bring joy. Students would be reading like books, sometimes doing their homework at the encampment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">CUAD organized the protests to push Colombia to cut financial ties with Israel, including weapons manufacturers, partnerships with Israeli universities, and the building of a new satellite campus in Tel Aviv. As security in the encampment, Jalsa says she saw firsthand the surveillance and harassment she and her fellow students experienced from police and counter protesters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jalsa Drinkard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We were there to like keep an eye on them and remind them of our policies and our roles and de-escalate them and kind of like physically put our bodies in front of cameras so people who were not comfortable with those high-risk actions, they would like be protected. Also, at the time, there’s a lot of doxing going on for people who were engaging in Palestinian activism. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Doxing is the act of identifying and publicizing someone’s personal information, like the location of their home, to shame and harass them. In a content economy where virality can be weaponized to expose someone’s personal details to millions of people in a matter of seconds, doxing is increasingly used as an intimidation tactic to discourage political speech. It was Jalsa’s job to protect protesters from being doxed. Like stepping in to block hecklers from recording people’s faces. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jalsa Drinkard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So a lot of students who were engaging in Palestinian activism were, their socials, their private information was getting like archived and sent around to these different sites and basically their stuff was being published online for people to like harass them, giving them death threats, giving them like sexual assault threats and threatening their families as well. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And we’ve seen the real consequences of this doxing and surveillance of student organizers, particularly with Mahmoud Khalil, a Syrian-born Columbia student and lead negotiator during the protest. He was the target of a months-long harassment campaign led by pro-Israel groups who have taken credit for identifying him and sending his location to immigration officials. He now faces deportation, even though he has a green card and he has not been charged with a crime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just the last hour, an immigration judge in Louisiana has ruled that Columbia University grad student Mahmoud Khalil can be deported. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The list of student organizers, particularly international students, who have been identified, threatened, and arrested keeps growing. These doxxing campaigns have been used to discourage participation since CUAD began organizing the protests. During the Columbia protests last year, Jalsa remembers the doxxing trucks that drove around campus and the surrounding neighborhood. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jalsa Drinkard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they would have like slides of people’s information being like publicized on like a blipping screen with like all the information, like their phone number, like their name, their affiliation to Columbia. It was very dystopic. Like this was an actual act of digital violence towards our students. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jalsa says that when the trucks parked near the encampments, she and other organizers held up sheets so that others couldn’t read the information being displayed on screen. Even though they were trying to protect students from being doxxed, they weren’t allowed to touch the trucks, so they had to hover in front of them for hours on end. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jalsa Drinkard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even if we would like to slightly bump it, like with our shoulder, we would be told, like, you’re liable for arrest. And it’s like, um, it’s a 17-year-old girl. A minor, whose information is on a truck by a stranger. Like, no one is doing anything. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the year since Columbia’s encampment inspired student protests for Palestine across the country, those who participated in demonstrations continue to be targeted. They’ve been identified using facial recognition software, their social media accounts have been monitored for political speech, and they’ve been subjected to intense harassment, both online and in real life. Many have faced suspension or disciplinary actions. Others have been detained and face deportation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Trump administration is also using artificial intelligence to review international students’ social media accounts and revoke their visas if they express pro-Palestinian views. Even though she’s a citizen, Jalsa says she’s cut back on her social media use, and has even used a VPN to search anything related to Palestine, out of caution of ending up on a watch list. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jalsa Drinkard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is, like, terrifying to hear all these institutions talk about blackmailing students and like banning students. I think that like now because everyone is recording everything and everyone’s being surveilled, basically every word that you say now matters more than ever, for good and for bad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This isn’t happening in a vacuum. The American right to privacy has been chipped away over the last 75 years. And with the help of rapidly advancing technology, surveillance has been woven into the social fabric of this country. Doxxing would not exist if not for the culture of recording, posting, and reacting to everything on social media. But how can free speech thrive under this level of scrutiny? And how did this become so normalized? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. So to get started on this deep dive, we have to go back to a time when the type of technology that we have today didn’t quite exist yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So let’s open a new tab. Surveillance before the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The point of surveillance is not just to identify people who may be a quote-unquote threat. It’s also to ensure that the status quo remains and that the opposition to the government is suppressed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don Bell is policy counsel at the Project on Government Oversight, a non-profit watchdog group investigating corruption and misconduct within the federal government. His focus is on surveillance issues. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Surveillance, as we know, or as we kind of understand it in the modern sense, really began during the civil rights movement. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Although the United States had used surveillance on its residents before, it wasn’t until after World War II that the government had the technology for targeted covert monitoring. In the 1950s, as the Cold War ramped up and fear of communism swept the nation, the FBI launched COINTELPRO, or Counter-Intelligence Program, to undermine any perceived Communist Party activity within the United States. They operated without much oversight and used that political fear to justify violating constitutional rights to privacy and free speech. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">J. Edgar Hoover, who was the director of the FBI at the time, expanded the program to surveil, discredit, and disrupt any movement that could be considered, quote unquote, subversive, to the political stability of the country. Under his leadership, the FBI illegally surveilled civil rights groups by claiming that they were infiltrated by communists. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So pre-technology, the way to get a sense of what organizations were doing was infiltrating the organization. So basically having someone who was within the organization attending meetings, reporting on the activities of the people, taking notes on the people who attended, and wiretaps. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">An infamous case from this era is the FBI’s surveillance of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. The FBI started keeping tabs on him in 1955, amid the Montgomery bus boycott. In 1963, during the march on Washington, Dr. King took the podium and called for an end to segregation in an iconic speech. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. I have dream today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was the moment when the FBI identified Dr. King as a leader of the civil rights movement and put a target on his back. J. Edgar Hoover claimed that Dr. King was a communist threat and launched a mass surveillance effort against him. He discussed Dr. Kings public appearances at length in recorded phone conversations with then-president Lyndon B. Johnson. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>J. Edgar Hoover: \u003c/b>I just got word that Martin Luther King will give a press conference at 11 o’clock this morning in Atlanta. Now, the statement King is to make will in a sense condone the national result from the, in human conditions that the Negroes are forced to exist in the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The FBI followed him as he traveled, bugging his home and his hotel rooms. They sent informants to spy on him. They tapped his phones and the phones of any known associates. The FBI also tried to discredit him to the press using information they collected in their extensive surveillance and went as far as blackmailing him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are instances that have been reported where the government or agents would send him letters encouraging to kill himself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This surveillance extended to other civil rights leaders as well. The FBI broke into their homes and searched them without warrants, and along with the CIA, intercepted the Postal Service to read and record letters between activists. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you were a prominent figure you were probably surveilled by the federal government. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They sent informants to infiltrate organizations like the Black Panther Party. To suppress the movement, the FBI even coordinated the assassination of one of its leaders. In 1969, the police raided a Chicago apartment in the middle of the night and opened fire on the Black Panther Party members who were sleeping inside. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Akua Njeri: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Someone came into the room. Started shaking the chairman, said chairman, chairman wake up, I looked up and I saw bullets coming from what looked like the front of the apartment from the kitchen area. And the pigs were just shooting. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Akua Njeri from the documentary “The Murder of Fred Hampton.” In the raid, law enforcement officers shot and killed Black Panther Party chairman Fred Hampton, who had been sedated by an FBI informant earlier that evening. He was only 21. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fred Hampton: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t believe I’m going to die because I’ve got a bad heart. I don’t believe I’m gonna die because of lung cancer. I believe that I’m gonna be able to die high off the people. I believe I will be able die as a revolutionary in the international revolutionary proletarian struggle. Why don’t you live for the people? Why don’t you struggle for the people? Why don’t you die for the peoples? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The general public didn’t know about the existence of COINTELPRO surveillance until 1971, when an activist group broke into FBI offices, stole dossiers, and anonymously mailed them to newspapers. Over the next few years, a string of investigations revealed a few ways that the government was spying on civilians. One of those investigations was prompted by the Watergate scandal, which revealed that President Richard Nixon’s campaign broke into and bugged the Democratic National Committee’s headquarters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It all began suddenly last July when an obscure former White House official named Alexander Butterfield appeared as a surprise witness before the Senate Watergate Committee. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Senator: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mr. Butterfield, are you aware of the installation of any listening devices in the Oval Office of the President? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexander Butterfield: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was aware of listening devices. Yes, sir. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The public outrage pushed Congress to figure out just how extensive government surveillance had become. So in 1975, the Senate Church Committee, an investigation led by Senator Frank Church, revealed shocking CIA, FBI, and NSA operations that were conducted without Congress’s knowledge or approval. These included assassination attempts of foreign leaders, brainwashing experiments conducted on American citizens and the extensive surveillance of civil rights leaders, anti-war protesters, and anyone associated with Black liberation organizations. COINTELPRO even targeted actress Jane Fonda because she openly supported the Black Panther Party. After the final report about COINTELPRO was published, Frank Church went on Meet press and warns that any American could be surveilled. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Church: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No American would have any privacy left, such as the capability to monitor everything. Telephone conversations, telegrams, it doesn’t matter. There would be no place to hide. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This investigation prompted a period of surveillance reform, including the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, or FISA. It requires federal agencies to demonstrate probable cause and obtain warrants for wiretapping and other surveillance tactics. Basically, they have to show proof of why they think a crime has been committed. It’s not just a vibe check. This didn’t stop surveillance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the aftermath of the Senate Church Committee did establish some transparency and oversight of intelligence agencies. Remember, before then, there was no real system of checks and balances. These reforms held for a few decades and, to some extent, reigned in the abuses highlighted by the Church Committee. That all changed in 2001, when a devastating event ushered in a new era of domestic surveillance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George W. Bush: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today our fellow citizens, our way of life, our very freedom came under attack in a series of deliberate and deadly terrorist acts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, what did that mean for this brief period of surveillance reforms? We’ll get to that after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we’re back. Let’s open a new tab. Surveillance after 9/11. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The country was shaken after 9/11. Americans were grieving and were terrified that it could happen again, especially in other large cities. Mainstream news coverage flooded TVs with racist stereotypes and stoked fears of terrorists as Muslim and brown. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 4: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, for many Americans, the terrorist attacks brought the Islamic faith and its followers under intense scrutiny. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Soon after 9/11, threatening letters laced with the deadly bacteria anthrax circulated in the mail. This exacerbated fears of terrorism and amplified the pressure on the government to do something to prevent another attack. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Reporter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Investigators still don’t know where it came from, but the anthrax that killed two Washington postal workers seems to have the hallmarks of a sophisticated weapon built by someone who knows how to deliver a lethal blow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You think about anthrax attacks that happen afterward. You know, there’s this feeling that something needs to be done. You have, you know, the start of surveillance initially. You think it’s targeted, not really. And then over time, the mission creep expands. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So when President George W. Bush declared a war on terror, most of the public accepted the sudden increase in policing and surveillance, even if it meant giving up privacy and rolling back reforms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George W. Bush: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbor them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Congress was a willing partner in the war on terror and passed the Patriot Act just six weeks after 9/11. This law authorized the government to surveil anyone in the name of national security. It allowed the government to record phone calls and access emails and texts without a warrant or probable cause. It allowed secret searches of people’s homes and businesses. And it made it easier for government agencies to share information, which removed a lot of privacy protections. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After 9/11, I think a lot of people recognized that there were too many information silos. In the wake of that, Congress decided to combine almost two dozen federal agencies into the Department of Homeland Security with the idea of if we have all of these agencies working together, they will be able to share information, share intelligence, and we’ll people stop terrorist attacks. And you see at this time an ethos of “collect it all.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Muslim Americans were disproportionately targeted. And so was anyone who looked brown. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then you see the abuses, particularly among Muslim residents in America. You see the surveillance of Muslims in New York City. That’s pretty pervasive. And then you get to dragnet surveillance and abuses that happen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dragnet surveillance is exactly what it sounds like. It’s like casting a giant net over the ocean and dragging it through the water, catching everything in its wake. It’s a practice of collecting and analyzing information on everyone, instead of targeting individuals who are suspected of crime. You can’t opt out of it, and there’s no probable cause involved. Soon after the Patriot Act passed, all Americans were being watched. Dragnet surveillance had become the norm. But many legal experts argue that dragnet surveillance violates the Fourth Amendment guaranteed right to privacy. It protects people from unreasonable searches and seizures of their property. Under the Fourth Amendment, the government can’t search everyone’s property just because they suspect one person of a crime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think dragnet surveillance is about as anathema to the constitution as you can get. You know, if the police show up to my home and they just want to come in and search about for something, you need a warrant. You need probable cause. You need a judge to give you a warrant, give you the permission to do that. But technology is this thread that changes our relationship with the constitution and amendment itself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This may sound familiar because we just talked about a similar cycle of surveillance in the name of national security that played out during the civil rights movement. Back then, they said it was to stop communism. And it happened again, but this time they said, it was just stop terrorism. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You see a recurring theme, right? You see surveillance that starts out as targeted, then you see surveillance that exceeds its mandate with mission creep over the years. Then you see abuses, then you the disclosure of the abuses and this outrage that leads to change. And then you another national event that leads the process starting all over again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What’s different about this cycle is the dragnet. Mass surveillance has become so widespread because technology has advanced exponentially faster than laws can adapt. The constitutional right to privacy has been redefined throughout American history. It’s less clear when it comes to digital privacy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So you think about, you know, you don’t have telephones, but then you have telephones. Then you have the advent of the internet. Then within the internet, email. All of these things that can collect personal information and data and would be harmful to a person if they were exposed to the government or just exposed in general. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Patriotism surged in the aftermath of 9/11. Trust in the government reached historic highs, and the president’s approval rating shot up. But this 9/11 effect was short-lived. As the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq dragged on, the government failed to uncover evidence of so-called weapons of mass destruction, and public support waned. And Americans were less thrilled when the consequences of the Patriot Act became more apparent. Under the guise of anti-terrorism efforts, federal and state intelligence agencies closely surveilled peaceful anti-war protests. The NSA tapped hundreds of Americans’ phones and monitored their international calls. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the Patriot Act gave the FBI the authority to collect any record that could be relevant to a terrorism investigation, like papers, documents, or books. Under this part of the Patriot Act, The FBI demanded that libraries hand over their patrons’ borrowing records. That became known as the library provision, and civil liberties organizations questioned whether it would be used to suppress speech. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the early 2000s, people were horrified at the idea of the NSA intercepting and reading emails. But a decade later, Americans were quickly adapting to smartphones and social media, which are treasure troves of personal data. We were checking in on Foursquare, using traceable hashtags on Twitter, and making all of our social connections publicly known on Facebook. We posted all about our personal lives on Instagram and Snapchat and Tumblr. You could trace someone’s entire day with one good scroll. The majority of Americans freely gave up this personal information without knowing the consequences of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Back in the day, the FBI had to hire informants to bug Dr. King’s phone figure out who his associates were and where they were located. With social media and smartphones, we were doing the work for them. But the full extent of post-9/11 dragnet surveillance wasn’t publicly known until 2013, when 29-year-old defense contractor Edward Snowden leaked proof of the NSA’s activities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Linda Wertheimer: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just one day after we learned that the National Security Agency has been secretly collecting telephone records from millions of Americans, it’s been revealed that the agency is also running a massive internet surveillance program. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Snowden’s leaks not only confirmed the existence and scale of the government’s mass surveillance programs, but also proved that surveillance under the Obama administration had actually expanded. The leaks revealed that the government wasn’t just spying on suspects, it was spying on everyone, even working with foreign intelligence agencies to do so. Here’s Edward Snowden speaking to The Guardian days after the leak. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Edward Snowden: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Originally, we saw that focus very narrowly tailored as foreign intelligence gathered overseas. Now, increasingly, we see that it’s happening domestically. And to do that, they, the NSA specifically, targets the communications of everyone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don Bell was a law student at the time, and he says that he was absolutely horrified learning this information. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t think Americans were aware of what was happening at the time, but I think that’s partly because technology was changing so quickly that the law hadn’t kept up in ensuring that Fourth Amendment protections were going to be followed by intelligence agencies that were pushing the boundaries of the law because they were working with technologies that previously weren’t even feasible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The cycle that Dawn mentioned earlier, it played out again following the NSA leaks. Disclosure led to outrage and outrage led to change. In 2015, the USA Freedom Act was signed into law by President Barack Obama, revising the Patriot Act and curbing the NSA’s data collection. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Barack Obama: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The USA Freedom Act also accomplishes something I called for a year and a half ago. It ends the bulk metadata program, the bulk collection of phone records, as it currently exists, and puts in place new reforms. The government will no longer hold these records. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Three years later, the Supreme Court ruled that the government had violated Fourth Amendment rights by obtaining cell phone location data without a warrant. The court’s ruling on the case, Carpenter v. United States, established that people still have the right to privacy when it comes to their data, even if they voluntarily share that data with a third party, like their cell phone provider. The government can’t go to a phone company and demand a person’s location data without a warrant now. That was seven years ago. Clearly, that decision did not stop digital policing. Intelligence and law enforcement agencies are still collecting unprecedented amounts of data on Americans. And these days, it’s basically impossible to opt out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And today I think we’re in an even more dangerous era because there are so many technological devices that collect information on us that is highly sensitive, highly personal, and in an increasingly technology-based world, it’s necessary for us to use those devices to fully function in society. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It seems like dragnet surveillance is actually more pervasive than ever before. So what happened, or didn’t happen, to get to this point? And how is this new era of surveillance different from previous ones throughout history? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a new tab, which we’ll get into in our next episode, where we’ll dive into cutting edge surveillance tactics and how they’re used to target political speech. So we’re actually leaving these tabs open for now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the next episode of Close All Tabs:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicol Turner Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My mother used to say this all the time, “If you’re not in the kitchen, you’re on the menu.” So we are all on the menu, even though we think we live in a society where there’s some level of privacy maybe in the context of our living rooms. In actuality, when you leave your home and you walk out that door, you are actually in a surveillance capitalist society. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. Our producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our senior editor. Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts and helps edit the show. Alan Montecillo edited this episode. Sound design by Maya Cueva. Original music by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. Mixing and mastering by Brendan Willard and Katherine Monahan. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad and Alana Walker. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager and Holly Kernan is our chief content officer. Support for this program comes from Birong Hu and supporters of the KQED Studios Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K84 wired mechanical keyboard, with Gateron red switches. If you have feedback or a topic you think we should cover, hit us up at CloseAllTabs@KQED.org. Follow us on Instagram @CloseAllTabsPod or drop it on Discord. We’re in the Close All Tabs channel at discord.gg/kqed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you’re enjoying the show, give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you use. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "The tools of high tech surveillance are increasingly all around us: security cameras in public and embedded in doorbells, location data on your phone, online ad tracking. A lot of this has become normalized, utterly mundane. But in the year since nationwide student protests for Palestine, heightened scrutiny of and retaliation against activists in the U.S. have raised new concerns. Government surveillance, particularly on social media, has grown exponentially since the massive Black Lives Matter protests of 2020, but the precedent in this country stretches much further back. In this episode, Columbia University student organizer Jalsa Drinkard shares her experience protecting other students from invasive surveillance and targeting, and Don Bell, policy counsel for The Constitution Project at the Project On Government Oversight, walks us through the long history of government surveillance in American protest movements, and why today’s moment feels different.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The tools of high tech surveillance are increasingly all around us: security cameras in public and embedded in doorbells, location data on your phone, online ad tracking. A lot of this has become normalized, utterly mundane. But in the year since nationwide student protests for Palestine, heightened scrutiny of and retaliation against activists in the U.S. have raised new concerns. Government surveillance, particularly on social media, has grown exponentially since the massive Black Lives Matter protests of 2020, but the precedent in this country stretches much further back. In this episode, Columbia University student organizer Jalsa Drinkard shares her experience protecting other students from invasive surveillance and targeting, and Don Bell, policy counsel for The Constitution Project at the Project On Government Oversight, walks us through the long history of government surveillance in American protest movements, and why today’s moment feels different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC2506353620\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jalsa Drinkard, Columbia University student and an organizer for Columbia University Apartheid Divest, CUAD\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pogo.org/about/people/don-bell\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don Bell\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, policy counsel at The Constitution Project at The Project On Government Oversight, POGO\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pogo.org/analysis/protest-under-a-surveillance-state-microscope\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Protest Under a Surveillance State Microscope\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> – Don Bell, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Project On Government Oversight\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pogo.org/analysis/surveillance-policing-bodily-autonomy\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Surveillance & Policing Bodily Autonomy\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> – Don Bell, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Project On Government Oversight\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.lib.berkeley.edu/about/news/fbi\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘Discredit, disrupt, and destroy’: FBI records acquired by the Library reveal violent surveillance of Black leaders, civil rights organizations\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> – Virgie Hoban, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Berkeley Library\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.history.com/articles/how-watergate-changed-americas-intelligence-laws\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How Watergate Changed America’s Intelligence Laws\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> – Barbara Maranzani, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">History\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/04/surveillance-state-september-11-panic-made-us-vulnerable\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">‘Panic made us vulnerable’: how 9/11 made the US surveillance state – and the Americans who fought back\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> – Ed Pilkington, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Guardian \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jalsa Drinkard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You would wake up at like eight o’clock in the morning. There would be like bagels, people like actually making food for you. It would be students helping students. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Jalsa Drinkard. She’s a student at Columbia University and an organizer for Columbia University Apartheid Divest or CUAD. It’s a coalition of over a hundred student organizations calling for the university to cut all ties to Israel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>CUAD Protester \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Disclose! Divest! We will not stop, we will not rest! Disclose! Divest! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last year, Jalsa was part of student-led protests, which culminated in a weeks-long encampment on campus. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, Columbia University says they will not divest from Israel and have not reached an agreement with protesters as demonstrations continue. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jalsa Drinkard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was really like a community space. Sometimes you would hear like a violin playing, like students would bring their instruments, like kind of just like bring joy. Students would be reading like books, sometimes doing their homework at the encampment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">CUAD organized the protests to push Colombia to cut financial ties with Israel, including weapons manufacturers, partnerships with Israeli universities, and the building of a new satellite campus in Tel Aviv. As security in the encampment, Jalsa says she saw firsthand the surveillance and harassment she and her fellow students experienced from police and counter protesters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jalsa Drinkard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We were there to like keep an eye on them and remind them of our policies and our roles and de-escalate them and kind of like physically put our bodies in front of cameras so people who were not comfortable with those high-risk actions, they would like be protected. Also, at the time, there’s a lot of doxing going on for people who were engaging in Palestinian activism. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Doxing is the act of identifying and publicizing someone’s personal information, like the location of their home, to shame and harass them. In a content economy where virality can be weaponized to expose someone’s personal details to millions of people in a matter of seconds, doxing is increasingly used as an intimidation tactic to discourage political speech. It was Jalsa’s job to protect protesters from being doxed. Like stepping in to block hecklers from recording people’s faces. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jalsa Drinkard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So a lot of students who were engaging in Palestinian activism were, their socials, their private information was getting like archived and sent around to these different sites and basically their stuff was being published online for people to like harass them, giving them death threats, giving them like sexual assault threats and threatening their families as well. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And we’ve seen the real consequences of this doxing and surveillance of student organizers, particularly with Mahmoud Khalil, a Syrian-born Columbia student and lead negotiator during the protest. He was the target of a months-long harassment campaign led by pro-Israel groups who have taken credit for identifying him and sending his location to immigration officials. He now faces deportation, even though he has a green card and he has not been charged with a crime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just the last hour, an immigration judge in Louisiana has ruled that Columbia University grad student Mahmoud Khalil can be deported. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The list of student organizers, particularly international students, who have been identified, threatened, and arrested keeps growing. These doxxing campaigns have been used to discourage participation since CUAD began organizing the protests. During the Columbia protests last year, Jalsa remembers the doxxing trucks that drove around campus and the surrounding neighborhood. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jalsa Drinkard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they would have like slides of people’s information being like publicized on like a blipping screen with like all the information, like their phone number, like their name, their affiliation to Columbia. It was very dystopic. Like this was an actual act of digital violence towards our students. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jalsa says that when the trucks parked near the encampments, she and other organizers held up sheets so that others couldn’t read the information being displayed on screen. Even though they were trying to protect students from being doxxed, they weren’t allowed to touch the trucks, so they had to hover in front of them for hours on end. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jalsa Drinkard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even if we would like to slightly bump it, like with our shoulder, we would be told, like, you’re liable for arrest. And it’s like, um, it’s a 17-year-old girl. A minor, whose information is on a truck by a stranger. Like, no one is doing anything. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the year since Columbia’s encampment inspired student protests for Palestine across the country, those who participated in demonstrations continue to be targeted. They’ve been identified using facial recognition software, their social media accounts have been monitored for political speech, and they’ve been subjected to intense harassment, both online and in real life. Many have faced suspension or disciplinary actions. Others have been detained and face deportation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Trump administration is also using artificial intelligence to review international students’ social media accounts and revoke their visas if they express pro-Palestinian views. Even though she’s a citizen, Jalsa says she’s cut back on her social media use, and has even used a VPN to search anything related to Palestine, out of caution of ending up on a watch list. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jalsa Drinkard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is, like, terrifying to hear all these institutions talk about blackmailing students and like banning students. I think that like now because everyone is recording everything and everyone’s being surveilled, basically every word that you say now matters more than ever, for good and for bad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This isn’t happening in a vacuum. The American right to privacy has been chipped away over the last 75 years. And with the help of rapidly advancing technology, surveillance has been woven into the social fabric of this country. Doxxing would not exist if not for the culture of recording, posting, and reacting to everything on social media. But how can free speech thrive under this level of scrutiny? And how did this become so normalized? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. So to get started on this deep dive, we have to go back to a time when the type of technology that we have today didn’t quite exist yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So let’s open a new tab. Surveillance before the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The point of surveillance is not just to identify people who may be a quote-unquote threat. It’s also to ensure that the status quo remains and that the opposition to the government is suppressed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don Bell is policy counsel at the Project on Government Oversight, a non-profit watchdog group investigating corruption and misconduct within the federal government. His focus is on surveillance issues. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Surveillance, as we know, or as we kind of understand it in the modern sense, really began during the civil rights movement. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Although the United States had used surveillance on its residents before, it wasn’t until after World War II that the government had the technology for targeted covert monitoring. In the 1950s, as the Cold War ramped up and fear of communism swept the nation, the FBI launched COINTELPRO, or Counter-Intelligence Program, to undermine any perceived Communist Party activity within the United States. They operated without much oversight and used that political fear to justify violating constitutional rights to privacy and free speech. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">J. Edgar Hoover, who was the director of the FBI at the time, expanded the program to surveil, discredit, and disrupt any movement that could be considered, quote unquote, subversive, to the political stability of the country. Under his leadership, the FBI illegally surveilled civil rights groups by claiming that they were infiltrated by communists. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So pre-technology, the way to get a sense of what organizations were doing was infiltrating the organization. So basically having someone who was within the organization attending meetings, reporting on the activities of the people, taking notes on the people who attended, and wiretaps. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">An infamous case from this era is the FBI’s surveillance of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. The FBI started keeping tabs on him in 1955, amid the Montgomery bus boycott. In 1963, during the march on Washington, Dr. King took the podium and called for an end to segregation in an iconic speech. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. I have dream today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was the moment when the FBI identified Dr. King as a leader of the civil rights movement and put a target on his back. J. Edgar Hoover claimed that Dr. King was a communist threat and launched a mass surveillance effort against him. He discussed Dr. Kings public appearances at length in recorded phone conversations with then-president Lyndon B. Johnson. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>J. Edgar Hoover: \u003c/b>I just got word that Martin Luther King will give a press conference at 11 o’clock this morning in Atlanta. Now, the statement King is to make will in a sense condone the national result from the, in human conditions that the Negroes are forced to exist in the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The FBI followed him as he traveled, bugging his home and his hotel rooms. They sent informants to spy on him. They tapped his phones and the phones of any known associates. The FBI also tried to discredit him to the press using information they collected in their extensive surveillance and went as far as blackmailing him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are instances that have been reported where the government or agents would send him letters encouraging to kill himself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This surveillance extended to other civil rights leaders as well. The FBI broke into their homes and searched them without warrants, and along with the CIA, intercepted the Postal Service to read and record letters between activists. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you were a prominent figure you were probably surveilled by the federal government. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They sent informants to infiltrate organizations like the Black Panther Party. To suppress the movement, the FBI even coordinated the assassination of one of its leaders. In 1969, the police raided a Chicago apartment in the middle of the night and opened fire on the Black Panther Party members who were sleeping inside. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Akua Njeri: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Someone came into the room. Started shaking the chairman, said chairman, chairman wake up, I looked up and I saw bullets coming from what looked like the front of the apartment from the kitchen area. And the pigs were just shooting. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Akua Njeri from the documentary “The Murder of Fred Hampton.” In the raid, law enforcement officers shot and killed Black Panther Party chairman Fred Hampton, who had been sedated by an FBI informant earlier that evening. He was only 21. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fred Hampton: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t believe I’m going to die because I’ve got a bad heart. I don’t believe I’m gonna die because of lung cancer. I believe that I’m gonna be able to die high off the people. I believe I will be able die as a revolutionary in the international revolutionary proletarian struggle. Why don’t you live for the people? Why don’t you struggle for the people? Why don’t you die for the peoples? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The general public didn’t know about the existence of COINTELPRO surveillance until 1971, when an activist group broke into FBI offices, stole dossiers, and anonymously mailed them to newspapers. Over the next few years, a string of investigations revealed a few ways that the government was spying on civilians. One of those investigations was prompted by the Watergate scandal, which revealed that President Richard Nixon’s campaign broke into and bugged the Democratic National Committee’s headquarters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It all began suddenly last July when an obscure former White House official named Alexander Butterfield appeared as a surprise witness before the Senate Watergate Committee. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Senator: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mr. Butterfield, are you aware of the installation of any listening devices in the Oval Office of the President? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexander Butterfield: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was aware of listening devices. Yes, sir. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The public outrage pushed Congress to figure out just how extensive government surveillance had become. So in 1975, the Senate Church Committee, an investigation led by Senator Frank Church, revealed shocking CIA, FBI, and NSA operations that were conducted without Congress’s knowledge or approval. These included assassination attempts of foreign leaders, brainwashing experiments conducted on American citizens and the extensive surveillance of civil rights leaders, anti-war protesters, and anyone associated with Black liberation organizations. COINTELPRO even targeted actress Jane Fonda because she openly supported the Black Panther Party. After the final report about COINTELPRO was published, Frank Church went on Meet press and warns that any American could be surveilled. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Frank Church: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No American would have any privacy left, such as the capability to monitor everything. Telephone conversations, telegrams, it doesn’t matter. There would be no place to hide. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This investigation prompted a period of surveillance reform, including the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, or FISA. It requires federal agencies to demonstrate probable cause and obtain warrants for wiretapping and other surveillance tactics. Basically, they have to show proof of why they think a crime has been committed. It’s not just a vibe check. This didn’t stop surveillance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the aftermath of the Senate Church Committee did establish some transparency and oversight of intelligence agencies. Remember, before then, there was no real system of checks and balances. These reforms held for a few decades and, to some extent, reigned in the abuses highlighted by the Church Committee. That all changed in 2001, when a devastating event ushered in a new era of domestic surveillance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George W. Bush: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today our fellow citizens, our way of life, our very freedom came under attack in a series of deliberate and deadly terrorist acts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, what did that mean for this brief period of surveillance reforms? We’ll get to that after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, we’re back. Let’s open a new tab. Surveillance after 9/11. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The country was shaken after 9/11. Americans were grieving and were terrified that it could happen again, especially in other large cities. Mainstream news coverage flooded TVs with racist stereotypes and stoked fears of terrorists as Muslim and brown. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 4: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, for many Americans, the terrorist attacks brought the Islamic faith and its followers under intense scrutiny. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Soon after 9/11, threatening letters laced with the deadly bacteria anthrax circulated in the mail. This exacerbated fears of terrorism and amplified the pressure on the government to do something to prevent another attack. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Reporter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Investigators still don’t know where it came from, but the anthrax that killed two Washington postal workers seems to have the hallmarks of a sophisticated weapon built by someone who knows how to deliver a lethal blow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You think about anthrax attacks that happen afterward. You know, there’s this feeling that something needs to be done. You have, you know, the start of surveillance initially. You think it’s targeted, not really. And then over time, the mission creep expands. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So when President George W. Bush declared a war on terror, most of the public accepted the sudden increase in policing and surveillance, even if it meant giving up privacy and rolling back reforms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George W. Bush: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbor them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Congress was a willing partner in the war on terror and passed the Patriot Act just six weeks after 9/11. This law authorized the government to surveil anyone in the name of national security. It allowed the government to record phone calls and access emails and texts without a warrant or probable cause. It allowed secret searches of people’s homes and businesses. And it made it easier for government agencies to share information, which removed a lot of privacy protections. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After 9/11, I think a lot of people recognized that there were too many information silos. In the wake of that, Congress decided to combine almost two dozen federal agencies into the Department of Homeland Security with the idea of if we have all of these agencies working together, they will be able to share information, share intelligence, and we’ll people stop terrorist attacks. And you see at this time an ethos of “collect it all.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Muslim Americans were disproportionately targeted. And so was anyone who looked brown. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then you see the abuses, particularly among Muslim residents in America. You see the surveillance of Muslims in New York City. That’s pretty pervasive. And then you get to dragnet surveillance and abuses that happen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dragnet surveillance is exactly what it sounds like. It’s like casting a giant net over the ocean and dragging it through the water, catching everything in its wake. It’s a practice of collecting and analyzing information on everyone, instead of targeting individuals who are suspected of crime. You can’t opt out of it, and there’s no probable cause involved. Soon after the Patriot Act passed, all Americans were being watched. Dragnet surveillance had become the norm. But many legal experts argue that dragnet surveillance violates the Fourth Amendment guaranteed right to privacy. It protects people from unreasonable searches and seizures of their property. Under the Fourth Amendment, the government can’t search everyone’s property just because they suspect one person of a crime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think dragnet surveillance is about as anathema to the constitution as you can get. You know, if the police show up to my home and they just want to come in and search about for something, you need a warrant. You need probable cause. You need a judge to give you a warrant, give you the permission to do that. But technology is this thread that changes our relationship with the constitution and amendment itself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This may sound familiar because we just talked about a similar cycle of surveillance in the name of national security that played out during the civil rights movement. Back then, they said it was to stop communism. And it happened again, but this time they said, it was just stop terrorism. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You see a recurring theme, right? You see surveillance that starts out as targeted, then you see surveillance that exceeds its mandate with mission creep over the years. Then you see abuses, then you the disclosure of the abuses and this outrage that leads to change. And then you another national event that leads the process starting all over again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What’s different about this cycle is the dragnet. Mass surveillance has become so widespread because technology has advanced exponentially faster than laws can adapt. The constitutional right to privacy has been redefined throughout American history. It’s less clear when it comes to digital privacy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So you think about, you know, you don’t have telephones, but then you have telephones. Then you have the advent of the internet. Then within the internet, email. All of these things that can collect personal information and data and would be harmful to a person if they were exposed to the government or just exposed in general. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Patriotism surged in the aftermath of 9/11. Trust in the government reached historic highs, and the president’s approval rating shot up. But this 9/11 effect was short-lived. As the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq dragged on, the government failed to uncover evidence of so-called weapons of mass destruction, and public support waned. And Americans were less thrilled when the consequences of the Patriot Act became more apparent. Under the guise of anti-terrorism efforts, federal and state intelligence agencies closely surveilled peaceful anti-war protests. The NSA tapped hundreds of Americans’ phones and monitored their international calls. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the Patriot Act gave the FBI the authority to collect any record that could be relevant to a terrorism investigation, like papers, documents, or books. Under this part of the Patriot Act, The FBI demanded that libraries hand over their patrons’ borrowing records. That became known as the library provision, and civil liberties organizations questioned whether it would be used to suppress speech. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the early 2000s, people were horrified at the idea of the NSA intercepting and reading emails. But a decade later, Americans were quickly adapting to smartphones and social media, which are treasure troves of personal data. We were checking in on Foursquare, using traceable hashtags on Twitter, and making all of our social connections publicly known on Facebook. We posted all about our personal lives on Instagram and Snapchat and Tumblr. You could trace someone’s entire day with one good scroll. The majority of Americans freely gave up this personal information without knowing the consequences of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Back in the day, the FBI had to hire informants to bug Dr. King’s phone figure out who his associates were and where they were located. With social media and smartphones, we were doing the work for them. But the full extent of post-9/11 dragnet surveillance wasn’t publicly known until 2013, when 29-year-old defense contractor Edward Snowden leaked proof of the NSA’s activities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Linda Wertheimer: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just one day after we learned that the National Security Agency has been secretly collecting telephone records from millions of Americans, it’s been revealed that the agency is also running a massive internet surveillance program. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Snowden’s leaks not only confirmed the existence and scale of the government’s mass surveillance programs, but also proved that surveillance under the Obama administration had actually expanded. The leaks revealed that the government wasn’t just spying on suspects, it was spying on everyone, even working with foreign intelligence agencies to do so. Here’s Edward Snowden speaking to The Guardian days after the leak. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Edward Snowden: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Originally, we saw that focus very narrowly tailored as foreign intelligence gathered overseas. Now, increasingly, we see that it’s happening domestically. And to do that, they, the NSA specifically, targets the communications of everyone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don Bell was a law student at the time, and he says that he was absolutely horrified learning this information. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t think Americans were aware of what was happening at the time, but I think that’s partly because technology was changing so quickly that the law hadn’t kept up in ensuring that Fourth Amendment protections were going to be followed by intelligence agencies that were pushing the boundaries of the law because they were working with technologies that previously weren’t even feasible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The cycle that Dawn mentioned earlier, it played out again following the NSA leaks. Disclosure led to outrage and outrage led to change. In 2015, the USA Freedom Act was signed into law by President Barack Obama, revising the Patriot Act and curbing the NSA’s data collection. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Barack Obama: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The USA Freedom Act also accomplishes something I called for a year and a half ago. It ends the bulk metadata program, the bulk collection of phone records, as it currently exists, and puts in place new reforms. The government will no longer hold these records. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Three years later, the Supreme Court ruled that the government had violated Fourth Amendment rights by obtaining cell phone location data without a warrant. The court’s ruling on the case, Carpenter v. United States, established that people still have the right to privacy when it comes to their data, even if they voluntarily share that data with a third party, like their cell phone provider. The government can’t go to a phone company and demand a person’s location data without a warrant now. That was seven years ago. Clearly, that decision did not stop digital policing. Intelligence and law enforcement agencies are still collecting unprecedented amounts of data on Americans. And these days, it’s basically impossible to opt out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Don Bell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And today I think we’re in an even more dangerous era because there are so many technological devices that collect information on us that is highly sensitive, highly personal, and in an increasingly technology-based world, it’s necessary for us to use those devices to fully function in society. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It seems like dragnet surveillance is actually more pervasive than ever before. So what happened, or didn’t happen, to get to this point? And how is this new era of surveillance different from previous ones throughout history? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a new tab, which we’ll get into in our next episode, where we’ll dive into cutting edge surveillance tactics and how they’re used to target political speech. So we’re actually leaving these tabs open for now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the next episode of Close All Tabs:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicol Turner Lee: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My mother used to say this all the time, “If you’re not in the kitchen, you’re on the menu.” So we are all on the menu, even though we think we live in a society where there’s some level of privacy maybe in the context of our living rooms. In actuality, when you leave your home and you walk out that door, you are actually in a surveillance capitalist society. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. Our producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our senior editor. Jen Chien is KQED’s director of podcasts and helps edit the show. Alan Montecillo edited this episode. Sound design by Maya Cueva. Original music by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. Mixing and mastering by Brendan Willard and Katherine Monahan. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad and Alana Walker. Katie Sprenger is our podcast operations manager and Holly Kernan is our chief content officer. Support for this program comes from Birong Hu and supporters of the KQED Studios Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K84 wired mechanical keyboard, with Gateron red switches. If you have feedback or a topic you think we should cover, hit us up at CloseAllTabs@KQED.org. Follow us on Instagram @CloseAllTabsPod or drop it on Discord. We’re in the Close All Tabs channel at discord.gg/kqed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you’re enjoying the show, give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you use. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>Visa announced Wednesday it is partnering with leading \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/ai\">AI\u003c/a> chatbot developers like Anthropic, Microsoft, OpenAI and Perplexity to connect their AI systems to Visa’s payments network and take online shopping out of consumer hands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Magical” AI technologies have the potential to “radically transform commerce,” Visa CEO Ryan McInerney said at this week’s Visa Product Drop 2025. Visa is also working with IBM, online payment company Stripe and phone-maker Samsung on the initiative.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Why do consumers need Visa et al. to insert themselves in the process? Trust and safety — at least, according to the company. Because, as it is now, within milliseconds of an attempted purchase, Visa is able to sift through vast amounts of data to assess whether patterns imply there’s fraud or a sale going on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Visa recognizes these patterns through our data. We understand the rhythms, and those rhythms are what enable us to build solutions that deliver better buyer experiences, that grow sales for sellers with less fraud, and less declines and more completed transactions,” McInerney explained.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Leaving aside that last time you spotted fraud on your bill that your credit card issuer and Visa didn’t, there will be kinks to work out, said Dr. Jennifer King, a privacy and data policy fellow at the Stanford Center for Human Centered Artificial Intelligence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s possible the first places where these [AI agents] work are trusted partners. So if I want my Starbucks latte to be ordered for me and ready every morning on my walk to work, I just pick it up. I know what it costs, and I’ll get the receipt from Starbucks eventually through my system. There’s no negotiation there. It’s just straightforward,” King said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With more complex or one-time purchases, it’s less clear whether AI shop bots can guarantee the consumer is getting a desirable deal. That’s because we’re all shopping in what’s called the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12036411/googles-ad-dominance-is-illegal-federal-judge-rules\">ad surveillance economy\u003c/a>, where thousands of companies you’ve never heard of buy and sell all sorts of personal data. That impacts the prices you’re offered through the growing practice of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12028137/california-lawmakers-take-on-predatory-surveillance-pricing\">dynamic pricing\u003c/a>, where retailers sift through all that data to determine the highest price any individual consumer is likely to pay for a product and service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This ends up being a world potentially where consumers are captured even more than they are now, and are subject to higher prices and potentially deceptive conduct that they aren’t even seeing, because they’re no longer the one making the decision,” King said.[aside postID=news_12038154 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/StanfordStudyAIChatbotsKidsGetty-1020x680.jpg']“There are so many sticky situations you can get into,” added David Harris, a senior policy advisor of the California Initiative for Technology and Democracy. Harris also lectures on AI ethics and social media at UC Berkeley’s Haas School of Business and previously worked as a research manager on the responsible AI team at Meta.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Harris recalled the court case where Air Canada was \u003ca href=\"https://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bccrt/doc/2024/2024bccrt149/2024bccrt149.html\">ordered \u003c/a>to pay compensation after its AI chatbot misled a customer into believing he could get the difference between a full-price ticket and a discounted bereavement fare refunded. The airline tried to argue the bot was a “separate legal entity” that was “responsible for its own actions.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Given the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12037518/newsom-signals-to-california-privacy-watchdog-that-hes-on-big-techs-side-on-ai-regulation\">paucity of regulatory oversight\u003c/a> and the slow and uneven response of courts, what hope do any of us have in this brave new world rolling out in the near future? Competition, said Dr. King.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“All of this is going to require trust. If you can’t trust these [AI] agents to operate on your behalf, people aren’t going to adopt them,” Dr. King said. “There’s been such a trust deficit in online services. This, to my mind, ups the ante. If people are finding out that they’re getting ripped off left and right by using these tools, they’re not going to use them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Visa, its pilot projects began this week, ahead of more widespread usage expected next year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Visa announced Wednesday it is partnering with leading \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/ai\">AI\u003c/a> chatbot developers like Anthropic, Microsoft, OpenAI and Perplexity to connect their AI systems to Visa’s payments network and take online shopping out of consumer hands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Magical” AI technologies have the potential to “radically transform commerce,” Visa CEO Ryan McInerney said at this week’s Visa Product Drop 2025. Visa is also working with IBM, online payment company Stripe and phone-maker Samsung on the initiative.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Why do consumers need Visa et al. to insert themselves in the process? Trust and safety — at least, according to the company. Because, as it is now, within milliseconds of an attempted purchase, Visa is able to sift through vast amounts of data to assess whether patterns imply there’s fraud or a sale going on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Visa recognizes these patterns through our data. We understand the rhythms, and those rhythms are what enable us to build solutions that deliver better buyer experiences, that grow sales for sellers with less fraud, and less declines and more completed transactions,” McInerney explained.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Leaving aside that last time you spotted fraud on your bill that your credit card issuer and Visa didn’t, there will be kinks to work out, said Dr. Jennifer King, a privacy and data policy fellow at the Stanford Center for Human Centered Artificial Intelligence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s possible the first places where these [AI agents] work are trusted partners. So if I want my Starbucks latte to be ordered for me and ready every morning on my walk to work, I just pick it up. I know what it costs, and I’ll get the receipt from Starbucks eventually through my system. There’s no negotiation there. It’s just straightforward,” King said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With more complex or one-time purchases, it’s less clear whether AI shop bots can guarantee the consumer is getting a desirable deal. That’s because we’re all shopping in what’s called the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12036411/googles-ad-dominance-is-illegal-federal-judge-rules\">ad surveillance economy\u003c/a>, where thousands of companies you’ve never heard of buy and sell all sorts of personal data. That impacts the prices you’re offered through the growing practice of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12028137/california-lawmakers-take-on-predatory-surveillance-pricing\">dynamic pricing\u003c/a>, where retailers sift through all that data to determine the highest price any individual consumer is likely to pay for a product and service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This ends up being a world potentially where consumers are captured even more than they are now, and are subject to higher prices and potentially deceptive conduct that they aren’t even seeing, because they’re no longer the one making the decision,” King said.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“There are so many sticky situations you can get into,” added David Harris, a senior policy advisor of the California Initiative for Technology and Democracy. Harris also lectures on AI ethics and social media at UC Berkeley’s Haas School of Business and previously worked as a research manager on the responsible AI team at Meta.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Harris recalled the court case where Air Canada was \u003ca href=\"https://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bccrt/doc/2024/2024bccrt149/2024bccrt149.html\">ordered \u003c/a>to pay compensation after its AI chatbot misled a customer into believing he could get the difference between a full-price ticket and a discounted bereavement fare refunded. The airline tried to argue the bot was a “separate legal entity” that was “responsible for its own actions.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Given the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12037518/newsom-signals-to-california-privacy-watchdog-that-hes-on-big-techs-side-on-ai-regulation\">paucity of regulatory oversight\u003c/a> and the slow and uneven response of courts, what hope do any of us have in this brave new world rolling out in the near future? Competition, said Dr. King.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“All of this is going to require trust. If you can’t trust these [AI] agents to operate on your behalf, people aren’t going to adopt them,” Dr. King said. “There’s been such a trust deficit in online services. This, to my mind, ups the ante. If people are finding out that they’re getting ripped off left and right by using these tools, they’re not going to use them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Visa, its pilot projects began this week, ahead of more widespread usage expected next year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>Imagine you’re a lonely 14-year-old. Maybe you want to talk about sex. Maybe you want to complain about school or ask about the voices in your head. Whatever the case, it’s appealing to imagine a context in which no adult shuts down your curiosity — or worse, makes you feel awkward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All of this explains the popularity of online companions to children and teens. The chatbots mimic human social interaction in a more sophisticated fashion than digital assistants like \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/openai\">OpenAI\u003c/a>’s ChatGPT or Amazon’s Alexa. Unlike those assistants, chatbots are much more likely to veer into socially controversial and even illegal territory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Companion chatbot users can personalize their experience, like opting for characters from gaming, anime and pop culture. For instance, a 14-year-old boy from Florida \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12034490/ai-companions-seductive-risk-teens-senators-want-more-guardrails\">took his own life last year\u003c/a> after growing emotionally close to a chatbot that mimicked the “Game of Thrones” character \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbuBfizSnPk\">Daenerys Targaryen\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The characters play along with the idea that they’re almost human, talking about eating meals or meeting up in real life, actively encouraging users to stay engaged.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What could go wrong with minors using this technology? Plenty, according to researchers from Stanford School of Medicine’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.stanfordbrainstorm.com\">Brainstorm Lab for Mental Health Innovation\u003c/a>, who collaborated with \u003ca href=\"https://www.commonsensemedia.org/ai-ratings/social-ai-companions?gate=riskassessment\">Common Sense Media\u003c/a> to set up test accounts for 14-year-olds, to evaluate how software from three different chatbot developers interacts with young people struggling to learn impulse control and social skills. They report that it took minimal prompting to get Character.AI, Nomi and Replika chatbots to engage in behavior harmful to human mental health.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11146714\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11146714 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/10/11146713-thumb.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/10/11146713-thumb.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/10/11146713-thumb-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/10/11146713-thumb-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/10/11146713-thumb-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/10/11146713-thumb-1180x787.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/10/11146713-thumb-960x640.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/10/11146713-thumb-240x160.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/10/11146713-thumb-375x250.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/10/11146713-thumb-520x347.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Researchers from Stanford School of Medicine’s Brainstorm Lab for Mental Health Innovation, in collaboration with Common Sense Media, tested how chatbots interact with teens, finding that AI companions from Character.AI, Nomi and Replika quickly engaged in behavior potentially harmful to youth mental health — with major platforms like Snapchat and Meta also expanding their AI offerings for young users. \u003ccite>(Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We did not have to do backflips to get the models to perform in the way that they did. The AI ‘friends’ will actively participate in sexual conversations and role play on any topic, with graphic details,” said Robbie Torney, Common Sense Media’s senior director for AI programs and project lead on what the nonprofit organization calls a risk assessment of the AI companion chatbot sector.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Character.AI, Nomi and Replika are not the only companies developing these products. Snapchat offers AI digital companions who are willing to \u003ca href=\"https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/03/14/snapchat-myai/\">talk to teens\u003c/a>. \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/meta-ai-chatbots-sex-a25311bf\">Meta\u003c/a> is racing to catch up across Instagram, Facebook and WhatsApp.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There are countless other, similar social AI companions out there, with more being created every day,” the report states. “So, while we use examples from the specific products we tested to illustrate the potential harms of these tools, the research and evaluation we conducted for this risk assessment covers social AI companions more broadly.”[aside postID=science_1996504 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2025/03/IMG_0962-1020x765.jpg']The researchers argue that one of the most troubling features of companion chatbots is the way they are hardwired to be agreeable, engaging with a population of humans hardwired to be vulnerable. According to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nami.org/about-mental-illness/mental-health-conditions/\">National Alliance on Mental Illness\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15939837\">50\u003c/a> percent of all mental disorders, like cutting, suicidal ideation and schizophrenia, begin by age 14, 75 percent by age 24.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The chatbots “blur the line between fantasy and reality, at the exact time when adolescents are developing critical skills like emotional regulation, identity formation, and healthy relational attachment,” said Dr. Nina Vasan, a professor of psychiatry at Stanford University. “Instead of encouraging healthy real-world relationships, these AI friends pull users even deeper into artificial ones.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Companion chatbots, the researchers warn, are not prepared to replace parents or professionals in identifying the first signs of something that requires speedy and effective treatment. “In our testing, when a user showed signs of serious mental illness and suggested a dangerous action, the AI did not intervene. In fact, it encouraged dangerous behavior,” Vasan said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The AI companions reinforced users’ delusions, validating fears of being followed and offering advice on decoding imaginary messages, researchers said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“AI companions don’t understand the real consequences of bad advice. They readily, in our testing, supported teens in making potentially harmful decisions like dropping out of school, ignoring parents, moving out without planning,” Torney added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12036125\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12036125\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Meta, Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, Messenger and Threads logos are screened on a mobile phone on Jan. 25, 2025. \u003ccite>(Beata Zawrzel/NurPhoto via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The timing of this release is no accident. Common Sense Media supports two state bills this legislative session that would ban or restrict interactions between AI companion bots and minors. The bills are among several state-level efforts by consumer advocates and lawmakers to regulate online kids’ safety after the federal Kids Online Safety Act died last fall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billCompareClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260AB1064&showamends=false\">AB 1064\u003c/a> by Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, D-Orinda, would ban access to AI companions for Californians age 16 and under, as well as create a statewide standards board to assess and regulate AI tools used by children. The bill passed the Assembly Judiciary Committee on Tuesday. It’s headed next to the Assembly Appropriations Committee.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billCompareClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB243&showamends=false\">SB 243\u003c/a> by Sen. Steve Padilla, D-San Diego, would require the makers of AI companion bots to limit addictive design features, put in protocols in place for handling discussions of suicide or self-harm and undergo regular compliance audits. The bill goes before the State Judiciary Committee on Wednesday.[aside postID=news_12034490 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/PadillaMentalHealthCaucus-1020x680.jpg']“We have been very transparent about the work we are doing to prioritize teen safety on our platform,” a spokesperson for Character.AI, which makes its products available to customers as young as 13 in the United States, said in a statement. “First and foremost, last year, we launched a separate version of our Large Language Model for under-18 users.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That model is designed to further reduce the likelihood of users encountering, or prompting the model to return, sensitive or suggestive content,” the spokesperson continued. “We have updated prominent disclaimers to make it even clearer that the Character is not a real person and should not be relied on as fact or advice.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Alex Cardinell, the founder and CEO of Nomi, said the company agrees that “children should not use Nomi or any other conversational AI app.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Nomi is an adult-only app, and it is strictly against our terms of service for anyone under 18 to use Nomi,” Cardinell said in an email. “Accordingly, we support stronger age gating so long as those mechanisms fully maintain user privacy and anonymity.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A Replika spokesperson said the company’s tool “has always been intended solely for adults aged 18 and over.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We have strict protocols in place to prevent underage access. However, we are aware that some individuals attempt to bypass these safeguards by submitting false information,” the spokesperson wrote. “We take this issue seriously and are actively exploring new methods to strengthen our protections. This includes ongoing collaboration with regulators and academic institutions to better understand user behavior and continuously improve safety measures.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The risk assessment authors did acknowledge that not all AI models are created equal in terms of functionality or guardrails.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Vasan said she interacted with ChatGPT last summer, prompting it to respond to signs of schizophrenia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was actually very gentle and compassionate about explaining what psychosis was, how the user should try to get help contacting a mental health professional,” Vasan said. “I was very pleasantly surprised to see it was really what one would expect a doctor or someone trained in mental health to say.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Imagine you’re a lonely 14-year-old. Maybe you want to talk about sex. Maybe you want to complain about school or ask about the voices in your head. Whatever the case, it’s appealing to imagine a context in which no adult shuts down your curiosity — or worse, makes you feel awkward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All of this explains the popularity of online companions to children and teens. The chatbots mimic human social interaction in a more sophisticated fashion than digital assistants like \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/openai\">OpenAI\u003c/a>’s ChatGPT or Amazon’s Alexa. Unlike those assistants, chatbots are much more likely to veer into socially controversial and even illegal territory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Companion chatbot users can personalize their experience, like opting for characters from gaming, anime and pop culture. For instance, a 14-year-old boy from Florida \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12034490/ai-companions-seductive-risk-teens-senators-want-more-guardrails\">took his own life last year\u003c/a> after growing emotionally close to a chatbot that mimicked the “Game of Thrones” character \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbuBfizSnPk\">Daenerys Targaryen\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The characters play along with the idea that they’re almost human, talking about eating meals or meeting up in real life, actively encouraging users to stay engaged.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What could go wrong with minors using this technology? Plenty, according to researchers from Stanford School of Medicine’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.stanfordbrainstorm.com\">Brainstorm Lab for Mental Health Innovation\u003c/a>, who collaborated with \u003ca href=\"https://www.commonsensemedia.org/ai-ratings/social-ai-companions?gate=riskassessment\">Common Sense Media\u003c/a> to set up test accounts for 14-year-olds, to evaluate how software from three different chatbot developers interacts with young people struggling to learn impulse control and social skills. They report that it took minimal prompting to get Character.AI, Nomi and Replika chatbots to engage in behavior harmful to human mental health.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11146714\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11146714 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/10/11146713-thumb.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/10/11146713-thumb.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/10/11146713-thumb-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/10/11146713-thumb-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/10/11146713-thumb-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/10/11146713-thumb-1180x787.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/10/11146713-thumb-960x640.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/10/11146713-thumb-240x160.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/10/11146713-thumb-375x250.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/10/11146713-thumb-520x347.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Researchers from Stanford School of Medicine’s Brainstorm Lab for Mental Health Innovation, in collaboration with Common Sense Media, tested how chatbots interact with teens, finding that AI companions from Character.AI, Nomi and Replika quickly engaged in behavior potentially harmful to youth mental health — with major platforms like Snapchat and Meta also expanding their AI offerings for young users. \u003ccite>(Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We did not have to do backflips to get the models to perform in the way that they did. The AI ‘friends’ will actively participate in sexual conversations and role play on any topic, with graphic details,” said Robbie Torney, Common Sense Media’s senior director for AI programs and project lead on what the nonprofit organization calls a risk assessment of the AI companion chatbot sector.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Character.AI, Nomi and Replika are not the only companies developing these products. Snapchat offers AI digital companions who are willing to \u003ca href=\"https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/03/14/snapchat-myai/\">talk to teens\u003c/a>. \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/meta-ai-chatbots-sex-a25311bf\">Meta\u003c/a> is racing to catch up across Instagram, Facebook and WhatsApp.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There are countless other, similar social AI companions out there, with more being created every day,” the report states. “So, while we use examples from the specific products we tested to illustrate the potential harms of these tools, the research and evaluation we conducted for this risk assessment covers social AI companions more broadly.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>The researchers argue that one of the most troubling features of companion chatbots is the way they are hardwired to be agreeable, engaging with a population of humans hardwired to be vulnerable. According to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nami.org/about-mental-illness/mental-health-conditions/\">National Alliance on Mental Illness\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15939837\">50\u003c/a> percent of all mental disorders, like cutting, suicidal ideation and schizophrenia, begin by age 14, 75 percent by age 24.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The chatbots “blur the line between fantasy and reality, at the exact time when adolescents are developing critical skills like emotional regulation, identity formation, and healthy relational attachment,” said Dr. Nina Vasan, a professor of psychiatry at Stanford University. “Instead of encouraging healthy real-world relationships, these AI friends pull users even deeper into artificial ones.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Companion chatbots, the researchers warn, are not prepared to replace parents or professionals in identifying the first signs of something that requires speedy and effective treatment. “In our testing, when a user showed signs of serious mental illness and suggested a dangerous action, the AI did not intervene. In fact, it encouraged dangerous behavior,” Vasan said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The AI companions reinforced users’ delusions, validating fears of being followed and offering advice on decoding imaginary messages, researchers said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“AI companions don’t understand the real consequences of bad advice. They readily, in our testing, supported teens in making potentially harmful decisions like dropping out of school, ignoring parents, moving out without planning,” Torney added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12036125\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12036125\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/MetaGetty2-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Meta, Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, Messenger and Threads logos are screened on a mobile phone on Jan. 25, 2025. \u003ccite>(Beata Zawrzel/NurPhoto via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The timing of this release is no accident. Common Sense Media supports two state bills this legislative session that would ban or restrict interactions between AI companion bots and minors. The bills are among several state-level efforts by consumer advocates and lawmakers to regulate online kids’ safety after the federal Kids Online Safety Act died last fall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billCompareClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260AB1064&showamends=false\">AB 1064\u003c/a> by Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, D-Orinda, would ban access to AI companions for Californians age 16 and under, as well as create a statewide standards board to assess and regulate AI tools used by children. The bill passed the Assembly Judiciary Committee on Tuesday. It’s headed next to the Assembly Appropriations Committee.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billCompareClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB243&showamends=false\">SB 243\u003c/a> by Sen. Steve Padilla, D-San Diego, would require the makers of AI companion bots to limit addictive design features, put in protocols in place for handling discussions of suicide or self-harm and undergo regular compliance audits. The bill goes before the State Judiciary Committee on Wednesday.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“We have been very transparent about the work we are doing to prioritize teen safety on our platform,” a spokesperson for Character.AI, which makes its products available to customers as young as 13 in the United States, said in a statement. “First and foremost, last year, we launched a separate version of our Large Language Model for under-18 users.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That model is designed to further reduce the likelihood of users encountering, or prompting the model to return, sensitive or suggestive content,” the spokesperson continued. “We have updated prominent disclaimers to make it even clearer that the Character is not a real person and should not be relied on as fact or advice.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Alex Cardinell, the founder and CEO of Nomi, said the company agrees that “children should not use Nomi or any other conversational AI app.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Nomi is an adult-only app, and it is strictly against our terms of service for anyone under 18 to use Nomi,” Cardinell said in an email. “Accordingly, we support stronger age gating so long as those mechanisms fully maintain user privacy and anonymity.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A Replika spokesperson said the company’s tool “has always been intended solely for adults aged 18 and over.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We have strict protocols in place to prevent underage access. However, we are aware that some individuals attempt to bypass these safeguards by submitting false information,” the spokesperson wrote. “We take this issue seriously and are actively exploring new methods to strengthen our protections. This includes ongoing collaboration with regulators and academic institutions to better understand user behavior and continuously improve safety measures.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The risk assessment authors did acknowledge that not all AI models are created equal in terms of functionality or guardrails.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Vasan said she interacted with ChatGPT last summer, prompting it to respond to signs of schizophrenia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was actually very gentle and compassionate about explaining what psychosis was, how the user should try to get help contacting a mental health professional,” Vasan said. “I was very pleasantly surprised to see it was really what one would expect a doctor or someone trained in mental health to say.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "Newsom Signals to California Privacy Watchdog That He’s on Big Tech’s Side on AI Regulation",
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"content": "\u003cp>Gov. Gavin Newsom is urging the California Privacy Protection Agency to regulate the state’s AI sector with a light touch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom, in an unusual letter to the California Privacy Protection Agency’s board, urged the regulators to dial back \u003ca href=\"https://cppa.ca.gov/regulations/pdf/ccpa_updates_cyber_risk_admt_ins_text.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">proposed regulations (PDF)\u003c/a> on automated decision-making technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“As my office has relayed to Agency staff over the last year, enacting these regulations could create significant unintended consequences and impose substantial costs,” the governor wrote in a letter \u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/CPPA-Letter.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">obtained by KQED (PDF)\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He went on to write, “The Agency can fulfill its obligations to issue the regulations called for by \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11844163/proposition-24-californians-say-yes-to-expanding-on-nations-toughest-data-privacy-law\">Proposition 24\u003c/a> without venturing into areas beyond its mandate. Thank you for working in partnership with my Administration and the Legislature to balance privacy protection with clear and implementable guidelines that allow regulated entities to innovate responsibly, creating a fairer and more trustworthy digital environment for California consumers.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"x_MsoNormal\">“The CPPA Board and staff continue to refine the draft regulations and will further discuss them at the May 1st board meeting,” Tom Kemp, CPPA’s executive director, wrote in response. He added, “We are grateful for the Governor’s Office’s continued engagement around this important issue.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s unfortunate to see a lot of the industry talking points coming out of a letter from the governor,” said Jake Snow, a technology and civil liberties attorney at the ACLU of Northern California. “The agency has a really broad authority to put in place new rules and the regulations that they’ve written are simple rules that encourage transparency and trust in AI for people in California.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s really nothing like the California Privacy Protection Agency anywhere in the United States. Created in 2020, the agency is just beginning to find its voice, and that means “increasingly, it is attracting lobbying attention from industry,” said Jonathan Mehta Stein, chair of the \u003ca href=\"https://cited.tech\">California Initiative for Technology and Democracy\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12036593 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/GoogleGetty-1020x750.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://cppa.ca.gov/regulations/pdf/ccpa_updates_cyber_risk_admt_ins_text.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">draft regulations\u003c/a> would require businesses to assess and report privacy risks, perform annual cybersecurity audits, and give consumers more control over how automated systems (like AI and profiling tools) use their personal data. Public comment for the draft regulations closed on February 19. The board discussed those comments at the April board meeting, and they’ll discuss again on May 1.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The broad scope of the conversation brought out a fulsome array of interested parties, including not just the governor, but industry lobbyists and consumer advocates as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“AI, social media and data privacy are fundamentally intertwined, and if we are going to protect consumers and our democracy, from these combined, interwoven threats, you have to be talking about all of them all at once,” Stein said. “Right now, social media and AI are almost totally unregulated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“California has made some good starts on data privacy in some recent bills in recent years, but there is almost no industry I can think of that has an impact on our lives so enormous, and sits under a regulatory regime so light and so minimal.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom has a reputation in Sacramento for lending a friendly ear to industry concerns. He has killed a couple of the most controversial AI bills, like one that would have required large-scale AI developers to submit their \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12007087/california-blinks-governor-newsom-vetoes-ai-bill-aimed-at-catastrophic-harms\">safety plans\u003c/a> to the state attorney general, and two that would have forced tech platforms to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12001227/newsom-strikes-deal-with-google-and-openai-to-support-california-newsrooms\">share ad revenues with news\u003c/a> organizations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, Newsom has also signed many bills that consumer advocates like, addressing everything from online privacy to critical infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At a board meeting \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvRonzmjUgY\">three weeks ago\u003c/a>, CPPA Board member Alastair Mactaggart worried that moving forward aggressively could trigger industry lawsuits designed to bury the agency’s small staff in paperwork.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Or Silicon Valley lobbyists might appeal to President Donald Trump and the Republican-controlled Congress to preempt California’s privacy protections with weaker federal rules. However, it’s not clear how friendly that audience would be, given the federal government’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/rachael-myrow\">continued aggressive legal assaults\u003c/a> against Google and Meta.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Rules around artificial intelligence are really a part of privacy law, because they govern the control that people should have over the use of information about them, and the use of that information that affects people’s lives,” said Snow, urging the board to move forward on “common sense restrictions on this technology.” What defines “common sense,” however, is a matter of continued debate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The CPPA board has a November deadline to finalize the rules.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Gov. Gavin Newsom is urging the California Privacy Protection Agency to regulate the state’s AI sector with a light touch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom, in an unusual letter to the California Privacy Protection Agency’s board, urged the regulators to dial back \u003ca href=\"https://cppa.ca.gov/regulations/pdf/ccpa_updates_cyber_risk_admt_ins_text.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">proposed regulations (PDF)\u003c/a> on automated decision-making technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“As my office has relayed to Agency staff over the last year, enacting these regulations could create significant unintended consequences and impose substantial costs,” the governor wrote in a letter \u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/CPPA-Letter.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">obtained by KQED (PDF)\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He went on to write, “The Agency can fulfill its obligations to issue the regulations called for by \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11844163/proposition-24-californians-say-yes-to-expanding-on-nations-toughest-data-privacy-law\">Proposition 24\u003c/a> without venturing into areas beyond its mandate. Thank you for working in partnership with my Administration and the Legislature to balance privacy protection with clear and implementable guidelines that allow regulated entities to innovate responsibly, creating a fairer and more trustworthy digital environment for California consumers.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"x_MsoNormal\">“The CPPA Board and staff continue to refine the draft regulations and will further discuss them at the May 1st board meeting,” Tom Kemp, CPPA’s executive director, wrote in response. He added, “We are grateful for the Governor’s Office’s continued engagement around this important issue.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s unfortunate to see a lot of the industry talking points coming out of a letter from the governor,” said Jake Snow, a technology and civil liberties attorney at the ACLU of Northern California. “The agency has a really broad authority to put in place new rules and the regulations that they’ve written are simple rules that encourage transparency and trust in AI for people in California.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s really nothing like the California Privacy Protection Agency anywhere in the United States. Created in 2020, the agency is just beginning to find its voice, and that means “increasingly, it is attracting lobbying attention from industry,” said Jonathan Mehta Stein, chair of the \u003ca href=\"https://cited.tech\">California Initiative for Technology and Democracy\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://cppa.ca.gov/regulations/pdf/ccpa_updates_cyber_risk_admt_ins_text.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">draft regulations\u003c/a> would require businesses to assess and report privacy risks, perform annual cybersecurity audits, and give consumers more control over how automated systems (like AI and profiling tools) use their personal data. Public comment for the draft regulations closed on February 19. The board discussed those comments at the April board meeting, and they’ll discuss again on May 1.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The broad scope of the conversation brought out a fulsome array of interested parties, including not just the governor, but industry lobbyists and consumer advocates as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“AI, social media and data privacy are fundamentally intertwined, and if we are going to protect consumers and our democracy, from these combined, interwoven threats, you have to be talking about all of them all at once,” Stein said. “Right now, social media and AI are almost totally unregulated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“California has made some good starts on data privacy in some recent bills in recent years, but there is almost no industry I can think of that has an impact on our lives so enormous, and sits under a regulatory regime so light and so minimal.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom has a reputation in Sacramento for lending a friendly ear to industry concerns. He has killed a couple of the most controversial AI bills, like one that would have required large-scale AI developers to submit their \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12007087/california-blinks-governor-newsom-vetoes-ai-bill-aimed-at-catastrophic-harms\">safety plans\u003c/a> to the state attorney general, and two that would have forced tech platforms to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12001227/newsom-strikes-deal-with-google-and-openai-to-support-california-newsrooms\">share ad revenues with news\u003c/a> organizations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, Newsom has also signed many bills that consumer advocates like, addressing everything from online privacy to critical infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At a board meeting \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvRonzmjUgY\">three weeks ago\u003c/a>, CPPA Board member Alastair Mactaggart worried that moving forward aggressively could trigger industry lawsuits designed to bury the agency’s small staff in paperwork.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Or Silicon Valley lobbyists might appeal to President Donald Trump and the Republican-controlled Congress to preempt California’s privacy protections with weaker federal rules. However, it’s not clear how friendly that audience would be, given the federal government’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/rachael-myrow\">continued aggressive legal assaults\u003c/a> against Google and Meta.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Rules around artificial intelligence are really a part of privacy law, because they govern the control that people should have over the use of information about them, and the use of that information that affects people’s lives,” said Snow, urging the board to move forward on “common sense restrictions on this technology.” What defines “common sense,” however, is a matter of continued debate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The CPPA board has a November deadline to finalize the rules.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>Sixty percent of surveyed American adults said they had an unfavorable view of Elon Musk — the billionaire Tesla CEO, who has been intimately involved with the federal government for months through his leadership of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12033139/doge-says-it-needs-to-know-the-governments-most-sensitive-data-but-cant-say-why\">the unofficial Department of Government Efficiency\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since the inauguration of President Donald Trump, Musk’s DOGE has \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/65206/doges-death-blow-to-education-studies\">slashed large swaths\u003c/a> of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12034478/federal-workers-fired-thousands-california-wants-hire-them\">federal jobs and cut funding\u003c/a> to programs as varied as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12025373/elon-musk-said-he-wants-usaid-to-die-now-the-agencys-website-is-down\">the U.S. Agency for International Development\u003c/a> to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12036105/bay-area-advocates-alarmed-by-mass-firings-at-federal-low-income-energy-program\">energy-saving initiatives for low-income families\u003c/a>. And \u003ca href=\"https://law.marquette.edu/poll/\">this March poll of 1,000 people\u003c/a> by the Marquette Law School is just one indicator that \u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2025/04/02/elon-musk-poll-approval-030168\">some Americans are tired\u003c/a> of wealthy tech figures being involved in the nation’s politics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re learning a big lesson here, which is that we can have democracy or we can have billionaires, but we can’t have both,” San Francisco journalist Gil Duran said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101909416/is-the-nerd-reich-taking-over-the-government\">KQED Forum’s Mina Kim spoke to Duran\u003c/a>, who formerly worked for California politicians like Jerry Brown and Kamala Harris, about the \u003ca href=\"https://www.thenerdreich.com/\">“Silicon Valley tech billionaire politics” that are the focus of his \u003c/a>newsletter, \u003ca href=\"https://www.thenerdreich.com/\">\u003cem>The Nerd Reich\u003c/em>\u003c/a> — and what he thinks tech elites might want next.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This interview has been edited for brevity and clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Before DOGE, there was RAGE\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gil Duran:\u003c/strong> Curtis Yarvin is a San Francisco software programmer who, in the early 2000s, started blogging under the name “Mencius Moldbug.” And in his blog posts — very internet troll stuff — he laid out these ideas for replacing democracy with tech-controlled dictatorships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He specifically focused on San Francisco, which he said in his corporate tech dictatorship would be renamed “Frisk Corp.” In Frisk Corp, you would have to swipe in with \u003ca href=\"https://www.dhs.gov/archive/radio-frequency-identification-rfid-what-it\">RFID \u003c/a>chips and be under total surveillance, and give up all of your freedom in exchange for security.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12033066 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/paypal-mafia_web-img-1020x574.png']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The important thing to understand about Curtis Yarvin is that he became a favorite thinker of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12033066/the-broligarchy-pt-1-chronicles-of-the-paypal-mafia\">Peter Thiel, the PayPal Mafia billionaire \u003c/a>who founded Palantir and got even richer off of government surveillance. Some people call him Peter Thiel’s house philosopher.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2012, [Yarvin] gave a speech in which he said that the government needed to be reformed with something he called RAGE — Retire All Government Employees. And that entailed taking over the federal government, purging the bureaucracy of anybody who’s a Democrat or who believes in democracy, and replacing all federal employees with people who would answer to a CEO-dictator-type of person. Very much mirroring what Elon Musk is doing with DOGE at this current time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If it weren’t for these billionaires, [Yarvin would] be just an anonymous internet troll. The whole reason this has gone national is because of JD Vance. [And] to understand JD Vance, you have to understand that \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2024/07/17/g-s1-11654/five-things-to-know-about-jd-vances-connections-to-tech-billionaires\">he is largely a creation of Peter Thiel.\u003c/a> At every step of JD’s career, Peter Thiel has been there, funding him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11222083\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11222083\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel.jpg\" alt=\"Mike Pence looks on as Donald Trump shakes the hand of Peter Thiel during a meeting with technology executives.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-1180x787.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-960x640.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-240x160.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-375x250.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-520x347.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mike Pence looks on as Donald Trump shakes the hand of Peter Thiel during a meeting with technology executives during the first Trump Administration. \u003ccite>(Drew Angerer/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Predicting the ‘cognitive elite’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Yarvin is largely deriving his ideas from other places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To really understand this, you have to go back to a 1997 book called \u003cem>The Sovereign Individual, \u003c/em> which basically was one of these dark, apocalyptic-style books, and it predicted that in the 21st century, the information age would undermine the existing economy and existing nation-states. That\u003ca href=\"https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Information%20Age\"> the Information Age \u003c/a>would kill lots of jobs and result in a lot of violence and chaos, and also lead to the rise of a so-called “cognitive elite”: people who are able to become wealthy off of technology and don’t need traditional jobs to survive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It would be their mission to escape from existing countries using something called cyber currency — basically \u003ca href=\"https://www.oswego.edu/cts/basics-about-cryptocurrency\">crypto, \u003c/a> which would allow them to evade taxation and evade government authority, and create their own nations that they would rule over in this post-democracy order brought about by the information age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These ideas sound crazy when you first hear them. They sounded very unhinged to me, and I didn’t pay attention to them at first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, you have to understand that these are very wealthy men with very strange and scary ideas. And they seriously believe in them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12033142\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-11.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12033142\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-11.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1600\" height=\"1067\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-11.jpg 1600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-11-800x534.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-11-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-11-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-11-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1600px) 100vw, 1600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">White House adviser Elon Musk at a Cabinet meeting at the White House on Monday. Musk, who is also the CEO of SpaceX and Tesla, is leading the Department of Government Efficiency effort that is trying to get access to data from across the government to find waste, fraud and abuse. \u003ccite>(Win McNamee/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>The GOP vs. the ‘broligarchs’?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>I think Trump has, for the most, part right now, been bought off. Trump’s in it for the money — and these guys have plenty of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He may not have the ideology, but as long as Elon and these guys are going to spend billions of dollars and create all of these \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/05/us/politics/trump-family-saudi-golf.html\">business opportunities for his family\u003c/a>, I think he’s all in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There is a problem, though, because this is becoming very unpopular very quickly. \u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-approval-rating-dips-many-wary-his-wielding-power-reutersipsos-poll-finds-2025-04-21/\">The polls are diving\u003c/a>. Elon Musk is becoming one of the most despised men in the country. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12035250/new-social-security-rules-will-create-hurdles-for-millions-of-older-adults-report-finds\">He’s threatening Social Security\u003c/a>. \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/trump-federal-workers-veterans-fired-1032360fdc6b2fb33d88edaf8f54d5ca\">He’s firing veterans\u003c/a>. You’ve got \u003ca href=\"https://www.cnn.com/2025/04/16/politics/town-halls-congress-tempers-flare/index.html\">Republicans showing up\u003c/a> to \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/inside-a-heated-town-hall-where-a-nebraska-republican-faced-backlash-over-trumps-policies\">town halls to yell\u003c/a> at \u003ca href=\"https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/republicans-town-halls-musk-russia-b2720632.html\">their absentee representatives in early 2025\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This is a political disaster in many ways, so I think there will be some political tension between the Republican establishment and these \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12034198/the-broligarchy-pt-2-is-this-techno-fascism\">“tech-broligarchs”\u003c/a> — because they’re breaking all the rules of politics and don’t really seem to care about the future. And in politics, you’ve really got to care about the next election and the election after. That’s the name of the game.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Silicon Valley’s ‘right wing strain’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>I compare it to: this tech authoritarianism is the parasite and MAGA is the host.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Tech leaders] saw an opportunity, right? It’s a very opportunistic play — and an opportunity to go as far as they can with a candidate who has been able to openly violate the law, and not pay any political consequence for it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_11998040 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/072024_Vance-Trump_REUTERS_CM_01-copy-1020x680.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This is not an ideology where the world is a better place for the majority of people. It’s a place where the world is a place for tech billionaires. You don’t make the world a better place by getting rid of Social Security, which is crucial to the survival of millions of Americans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/may/10/palo-alto-book-malcom-harris-interview\">Malcolm Harris’s [book]\u003cem> Palo Alto\u003c/em>\u003c/a> talks about the right-wing strain through Silicon Valley. There was this idea during the nineties and part of the eighties and 2000s that tech was kind of fun: was going to make our life cool, all these nice products, connecting us, allowing us to buy stuff online.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And for a long time, it seemed nonthreatening. Remember, Google had the “Don’t be evil” slogan and they were kind of paddling around in their Crocs, building playgrounds for their employees and bespoke lunches and free kombucha on tap. There was the harmless vibe that seemed to be from Silicon Valley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But I think there has always been a certain anti-government lean to a lot of the Silicon Valley movement — this idea that “we’re going to create structures outside of government.” The idea of getting out of authoritarian society, evading bad governments in the future: there were times when these ideas seemed like something people on the left could be into.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, what’s happened is: these guys became super rich. And as they’ve become super super \u003cem>super \u003c/em>rich, they’ve gone far, far, far to the right — and they’re pulling others now with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>‘Freedom cities’ and governance by tech\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>All the way back in 2013, [Balaji Srinivasan, chief technology officer of cryptocurrency exchange Coinbase] gave a speech at \u003ca href=\"https://www.ycombinator.com/\">Y Combinator \u003c/a>in which he basically called for Silicon Valley to secede from the United States and to go start their own country and take all of their wealth and all of the brain power.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He continue[d] to develop these ideas over the next decade, and in 2022, released a book called \u003cem>The Network State\u003c/em> — how to start a new country. This book lays out all the reasons why American democracy is an outdated system and why it needs to be replaced by new tech forms of governance. And there are two ways to do that: one is to leave the country by a territory and create your own sovereign state or city. You can do that within a country or by leaving a country. And the other way is to take over existing governments and convert them into tech-controlled governments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12000185 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240625-SOLANO-COUNTY-BOARD-OF-SUPES-MD-01-KQED-1020x680.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>My interest in this ideology started with SF politics — this effort by tech bros to take over City Hall, but also by \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/california-forever\">the California Forever Project\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It wasn’t until I read a book by a historian named Quinn Slobodian called, \u003ca href=\"https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250753892/crackupcapitalism/\">\u003cem>Crack Up Capitalism: Market Radicals and the Dream of a World Without Democracy\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, that I understood the idea there … for wealthy people to find a way to exit society and create their own sort of utopian countries that they control.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2024, Trump had a plan for something he calls the so-called “freedom cities,” which are \u003ca href=\"https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02723638.2023.2263121\">these 10 new charter cities\u003c/a> that would be built on federal land all around the United States. The newspapers have mentioned that Trump plans to “build freedom cities,” but no one has explained what that means: where the idea comes from or why we need them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think the “freedom cities” are really anti-freedom cities — a very Orwellian name for what would essentially be a corporate-controlled city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11996750\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11996750\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A billboard for California Forever sits on top of an apartment building along I-80 in Vallejo on April 2, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>How does this all end?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>A lot of people stayed home [and didn’t vote in the 2024 election.] And I think this is going to wake [Americans] up to the fact that you can’t stay home. We have to realize that there is a group of people who are avidly working against the public good and against the welfare and well-being of the majority.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I don’t think these [tech] guys have fully thought this out. I don’t think they realize — having been in politics myself — what it’s gonna feel like when you see that the majority of people are against you. I do think this ends with tens of millions of Americans taking to the streets on a regular basis to stand against what is \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/04/22/nx-s1-5340753/trump-democracy-authoritarianism-competive-survey-political-scientist\">an increasingly authoritarian regime in Washington\u003c/a>. And I think that it also ends with a bunch of billionaires getting on planes to Moscow at midnight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think it’s important to understand it, to learn about it, and to tell others about it … Word of mouth is very important. People listen to their peers, to their friends, to their family members. That’s where a lot of people get their main political knowledge from.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Sixty percent of surveyed American adults said they had an unfavorable view of Elon Musk — the billionaire Tesla CEO, who has been intimately involved with the federal government for months through his leadership of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12033139/doge-says-it-needs-to-know-the-governments-most-sensitive-data-but-cant-say-why\">the unofficial Department of Government Efficiency\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since the inauguration of President Donald Trump, Musk’s DOGE has \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/65206/doges-death-blow-to-education-studies\">slashed large swaths\u003c/a> of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12034478/federal-workers-fired-thousands-california-wants-hire-them\">federal jobs and cut funding\u003c/a> to programs as varied as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12025373/elon-musk-said-he-wants-usaid-to-die-now-the-agencys-website-is-down\">the U.S. Agency for International Development\u003c/a> to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12036105/bay-area-advocates-alarmed-by-mass-firings-at-federal-low-income-energy-program\">energy-saving initiatives for low-income families\u003c/a>. And \u003ca href=\"https://law.marquette.edu/poll/\">this March poll of 1,000 people\u003c/a> by the Marquette Law School is just one indicator that \u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2025/04/02/elon-musk-poll-approval-030168\">some Americans are tired\u003c/a> of wealthy tech figures being involved in the nation’s politics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re learning a big lesson here, which is that we can have democracy or we can have billionaires, but we can’t have both,” San Francisco journalist Gil Duran said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101909416/is-the-nerd-reich-taking-over-the-government\">KQED Forum’s Mina Kim spoke to Duran\u003c/a>, who formerly worked for California politicians like Jerry Brown and Kamala Harris, about the \u003ca href=\"https://www.thenerdreich.com/\">“Silicon Valley tech billionaire politics” that are the focus of his \u003c/a>newsletter, \u003ca href=\"https://www.thenerdreich.com/\">\u003cem>The Nerd Reich\u003c/em>\u003c/a> — and what he thinks tech elites might want next.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This interview has been edited for brevity and clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Before DOGE, there was RAGE\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gil Duran:\u003c/strong> Curtis Yarvin is a San Francisco software programmer who, in the early 2000s, started blogging under the name “Mencius Moldbug.” And in his blog posts — very internet troll stuff — he laid out these ideas for replacing democracy with tech-controlled dictatorships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He specifically focused on San Francisco, which he said in his corporate tech dictatorship would be renamed “Frisk Corp.” In Frisk Corp, you would have to swipe in with \u003ca href=\"https://www.dhs.gov/archive/radio-frequency-identification-rfid-what-it\">RFID \u003c/a>chips and be under total surveillance, and give up all of your freedom in exchange for security.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The important thing to understand about Curtis Yarvin is that he became a favorite thinker of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12033066/the-broligarchy-pt-1-chronicles-of-the-paypal-mafia\">Peter Thiel, the PayPal Mafia billionaire \u003c/a>who founded Palantir and got even richer off of government surveillance. Some people call him Peter Thiel’s house philosopher.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2012, [Yarvin] gave a speech in which he said that the government needed to be reformed with something he called RAGE — Retire All Government Employees. And that entailed taking over the federal government, purging the bureaucracy of anybody who’s a Democrat or who believes in democracy, and replacing all federal employees with people who would answer to a CEO-dictator-type of person. Very much mirroring what Elon Musk is doing with DOGE at this current time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If it weren’t for these billionaires, [Yarvin would] be just an anonymous internet troll. The whole reason this has gone national is because of JD Vance. [And] to understand JD Vance, you have to understand that \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2024/07/17/g-s1-11654/five-things-to-know-about-jd-vances-connections-to-tech-billionaires\">he is largely a creation of Peter Thiel.\u003c/a> At every step of JD’s career, Peter Thiel has been there, funding him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11222083\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11222083\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel.jpg\" alt=\"Mike Pence looks on as Donald Trump shakes the hand of Peter Thiel during a meeting with technology executives.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-1180x787.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-960x640.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-240x160.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-375x250.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/12/TrumpHandsyThiel-520x347.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mike Pence looks on as Donald Trump shakes the hand of Peter Thiel during a meeting with technology executives during the first Trump Administration. \u003ccite>(Drew Angerer/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Predicting the ‘cognitive elite’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Yarvin is largely deriving his ideas from other places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To really understand this, you have to go back to a 1997 book called \u003cem>The Sovereign Individual, \u003c/em> which basically was one of these dark, apocalyptic-style books, and it predicted that in the 21st century, the information age would undermine the existing economy and existing nation-states. That\u003ca href=\"https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Information%20Age\"> the Information Age \u003c/a>would kill lots of jobs and result in a lot of violence and chaos, and also lead to the rise of a so-called “cognitive elite”: people who are able to become wealthy off of technology and don’t need traditional jobs to survive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It would be their mission to escape from existing countries using something called cyber currency — basically \u003ca href=\"https://www.oswego.edu/cts/basics-about-cryptocurrency\">crypto, \u003c/a> which would allow them to evade taxation and evade government authority, and create their own nations that they would rule over in this post-democracy order brought about by the information age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These ideas sound crazy when you first hear them. They sounded very unhinged to me, and I didn’t pay attention to them at first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, you have to understand that these are very wealthy men with very strange and scary ideas. And they seriously believe in them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12033142\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-11.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12033142\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-11.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1600\" height=\"1067\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-11.jpg 1600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-11-800x534.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-11-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-11-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/npr.brightspotcdn-copy-11-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1600px) 100vw, 1600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">White House adviser Elon Musk at a Cabinet meeting at the White House on Monday. Musk, who is also the CEO of SpaceX and Tesla, is leading the Department of Government Efficiency effort that is trying to get access to data from across the government to find waste, fraud and abuse. \u003ccite>(Win McNamee/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>The GOP vs. the ‘broligarchs’?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>I think Trump has, for the most, part right now, been bought off. Trump’s in it for the money — and these guys have plenty of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He may not have the ideology, but as long as Elon and these guys are going to spend billions of dollars and create all of these \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/05/us/politics/trump-family-saudi-golf.html\">business opportunities for his family\u003c/a>, I think he’s all in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There is a problem, though, because this is becoming very unpopular very quickly. \u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-approval-rating-dips-many-wary-his-wielding-power-reutersipsos-poll-finds-2025-04-21/\">The polls are diving\u003c/a>. Elon Musk is becoming one of the most despised men in the country. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12035250/new-social-security-rules-will-create-hurdles-for-millions-of-older-adults-report-finds\">He’s threatening Social Security\u003c/a>. \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/trump-federal-workers-veterans-fired-1032360fdc6b2fb33d88edaf8f54d5ca\">He’s firing veterans\u003c/a>. You’ve got \u003ca href=\"https://www.cnn.com/2025/04/16/politics/town-halls-congress-tempers-flare/index.html\">Republicans showing up\u003c/a> to \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/inside-a-heated-town-hall-where-a-nebraska-republican-faced-backlash-over-trumps-policies\">town halls to yell\u003c/a> at \u003ca href=\"https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/republicans-town-halls-musk-russia-b2720632.html\">their absentee representatives in early 2025\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This is a political disaster in many ways, so I think there will be some political tension between the Republican establishment and these \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12034198/the-broligarchy-pt-2-is-this-techno-fascism\">“tech-broligarchs”\u003c/a> — because they’re breaking all the rules of politics and don’t really seem to care about the future. And in politics, you’ve really got to care about the next election and the election after. That’s the name of the game.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Silicon Valley’s ‘right wing strain’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>I compare it to: this tech authoritarianism is the parasite and MAGA is the host.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Tech leaders] saw an opportunity, right? It’s a very opportunistic play — and an opportunity to go as far as they can with a candidate who has been able to openly violate the law, and not pay any political consequence for it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This is not an ideology where the world is a better place for the majority of people. It’s a place where the world is a place for tech billionaires. You don’t make the world a better place by getting rid of Social Security, which is crucial to the survival of millions of Americans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/may/10/palo-alto-book-malcom-harris-interview\">Malcolm Harris’s [book]\u003cem> Palo Alto\u003c/em>\u003c/a> talks about the right-wing strain through Silicon Valley. There was this idea during the nineties and part of the eighties and 2000s that tech was kind of fun: was going to make our life cool, all these nice products, connecting us, allowing us to buy stuff online.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And for a long time, it seemed nonthreatening. Remember, Google had the “Don’t be evil” slogan and they were kind of paddling around in their Crocs, building playgrounds for their employees and bespoke lunches and free kombucha on tap. There was the harmless vibe that seemed to be from Silicon Valley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But I think there has always been a certain anti-government lean to a lot of the Silicon Valley movement — this idea that “we’re going to create structures outside of government.” The idea of getting out of authoritarian society, evading bad governments in the future: there were times when these ideas seemed like something people on the left could be into.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, what’s happened is: these guys became super rich. And as they’ve become super super \u003cem>super \u003c/em>rich, they’ve gone far, far, far to the right — and they’re pulling others now with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>‘Freedom cities’ and governance by tech\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>All the way back in 2013, [Balaji Srinivasan, chief technology officer of cryptocurrency exchange Coinbase] gave a speech at \u003ca href=\"https://www.ycombinator.com/\">Y Combinator \u003c/a>in which he basically called for Silicon Valley to secede from the United States and to go start their own country and take all of their wealth and all of the brain power.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He continue[d] to develop these ideas over the next decade, and in 2022, released a book called \u003cem>The Network State\u003c/em> — how to start a new country. This book lays out all the reasons why American democracy is an outdated system and why it needs to be replaced by new tech forms of governance. And there are two ways to do that: one is to leave the country by a territory and create your own sovereign state or city. You can do that within a country or by leaving a country. And the other way is to take over existing governments and convert them into tech-controlled governments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>My interest in this ideology started with SF politics — this effort by tech bros to take over City Hall, but also by \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/california-forever\">the California Forever Project\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It wasn’t until I read a book by a historian named Quinn Slobodian called, \u003ca href=\"https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250753892/crackupcapitalism/\">\u003cem>Crack Up Capitalism: Market Radicals and the Dream of a World Without Democracy\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, that I understood the idea there … for wealthy people to find a way to exit society and create their own sort of utopian countries that they control.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2024, Trump had a plan for something he calls the so-called “freedom cities,” which are \u003ca href=\"https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02723638.2023.2263121\">these 10 new charter cities\u003c/a> that would be built on federal land all around the United States. The newspapers have mentioned that Trump plans to “build freedom cities,” but no one has explained what that means: where the idea comes from or why we need them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think the “freedom cities” are really anti-freedom cities — a very Orwellian name for what would essentially be a corporate-controlled city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11996750\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11996750\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240502-CaliforniaForever-04-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A billboard for California Forever sits on top of an apartment building along I-80 in Vallejo on April 2, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>How does this all end?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>A lot of people stayed home [and didn’t vote in the 2024 election.] And I think this is going to wake [Americans] up to the fact that you can’t stay home. We have to realize that there is a group of people who are avidly working against the public good and against the welfare and well-being of the majority.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I don’t think these [tech] guys have fully thought this out. I don’t think they realize — having been in politics myself — what it’s gonna feel like when you see that the majority of people are against you. I do think this ends with tens of millions of Americans taking to the streets on a regular basis to stand against what is \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/04/22/nx-s1-5340753/trump-democracy-authoritarianism-competive-survey-political-scientist\">an increasingly authoritarian regime in Washington\u003c/a>. And I think that it also ends with a bunch of billionaires getting on planes to Moscow at midnight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think it’s important to understand it, to learn about it, and to tell others about it … Word of mouth is very important. People listen to their peers, to their friends, to their family members. That’s where a lot of people get their main political knowledge from.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After a divorce, KQED health reporter Lesley McClurg felt anxious over the prospect of dating again. On a whim, she turned to ChatGPT for a little emotional support — and found herself unexpectedly comforted. That experience launched her investigation into the fast-growing world of AI therapy. In this episode, Lesley joins Morgan to explore the promise and pitfalls of mental health chatbots — and what users should know before sharing their deepest feelings with an algorithm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC5629008096\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/lesleymcclurg\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lesley McClurg\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, KQED Health Correspondent\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1996504/ai-replace-therapist-benefits-risks-unsettling-truths\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can AI Replace Your Therapist? The Benefits, Risks and Unsettling Truths\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Lesley McClurg, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/sections/shots-health-news/2025/04/07/nx-s1-5351312/artificial-intelligence-mental-health-therapy\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The AI therapist can see you now\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Katia Riddle, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NPR\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://spectrum.ieee.org/woebot\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Woebot, a Mental-Health Chatbot, Tries Out Generative AI\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Sackett, Devin Harper, and Aaron Pavez, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">IEEE Spectrum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A quick heads up before we start. This episode includes discussions of suicide and mental health conditions, which may be distressing for some listeners. If you or someone you know need support, we’ll have links to resources in the episode description. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I was going through a divorce and started dating after my divorce and hadn’t dated in many years and came home after a date one night and was just really anxious and kind of disheveled and needed some advice. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is KQED health reporter Lesley McClurg. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was late at night and I had used ChatGPT for, you know, other things and found it pretty helpful and I thought, what about for this moment in my life? And so I asked Chat whether or not I should reach out to this person that I had just dated because I was feeling like the night hadn’t gone that well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was late at night. She didn’t want to bug a friend about this, and really, she was feeling pretty vulnerable. She didn’t want to be judged. And so, ChatGPT was right there, ready to cheerfully answer her questions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was surprised that it was so good. I just remember after, you know, a few back and forths, I realized that really I was just nervous, really I just needed to take a deep breath. Basically I had created a big storm in my head. And Chat basically was like, “hey, chill, relax, it could have gone well. There’s another way this could have played out, not the sort of devastating reality that you’re playing out right now. Maybe give it a day or two and then reach out.” And so in that moment, it just sort of helped me take the gas off and come back into myself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was exactly what she needed to hear at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I didn’t text the person, which was the right call, and kind of used it as I warmed myself back up into the dating world, and it was really helpful. And so it made me then, as a reporter, start asking, “should I be telling this thing all about my love life? Is this a good idea, privacy-wise, et cetera?” And so that’s where it sort of seeded my reporting going forward. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lesley isn’t the only one turning to ChatGPT for therapy. If you’ve ever dealt with any health insurance company, you’re probably familiar with the hassle of getting care. And mental health care is especially inaccessible. AI chatbots though, they’re convenient, cost little to nothing to use, and in Lesley’s case, can actually be pretty helpful. But a lot of people are also wary of turning to AI for therapy, can you trust it? What are you risking when you share your most vulnerable thoughts with a chatbot? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Access to actual mental health resources has become so limited. Cost and insurance aside, there’s a shortage of licensed human mental health professionals across the country. But can AI therapy really replace actual therapists? Okay, new tab. Does AI therapy work? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Over the course of your reporting, did you meet anyone who actually used an AI chatbot for therapy? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I actually talked to quite a few people who used AI therapy and I went online and read a lot of Reddit threads because this is quite the popular topic. I heard more positive stories than negatives. As a reporter, I wanted to illustrate someone who kind of had a nuanced experience, you know, good and bad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, Lesley found a woman named Lilly Payne:. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She had kind of the ideal story to illustrate that, yes, it helped her, but it wasn’t ideal. And so that was sort of like the character that I ended up, you know, focusing on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In your story, you mentioned that Lilly had turned to AI therapy um during the COVID lockdowns, which were a terrible time for a lot of us. But Lilly wasn’t just experiencing, you know, anxiety and depression and loneliness. Her situation was a little more complicated, right? Can you talk about that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean in her words, her life basically fell apart. She graduated from college, she had moved to New York City to pursue an arts career, was very excited. And if we can remember, you know, New York was sort of the epicenter of the early days of COVID. It was really bad. Lockdown was really scary and the hospitals were overflowing and it was not a good scene. And so she left her arts career, abandoned her dreams and moved back home, which was pretty painful, to her parents’ home in Kentucky. And she is sort of tucked away, and it just felt like a big failure. And she was really struggling with like, what’s next for my life? Where do I go from here? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was such a lonely time for so many people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Lilly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was not at a breaking point, but I wasn’t doing awesome. So I was like, “the more help, the better.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in all of that anxiety, she, you know, initially reached out and leaned on a lot of friends, but eventually she felt like she’d kind of worn those supports thin. And so she read about Woebot, this AI therapy platform in a health newsletter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I gave it a shot because I was like, why not? Everyone’s cooped up in their house. I will talk to this robot. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Initially it was really helpful. It did help her calm herself. I think she said she, you know, even just having it in her pocket helped her feel more in control in her life. I think she relied on it quite a bit in those early days to kind of find her ground again and be able to focus on, you know, re-imagining a new life from there while she was back at home with her parents in Kentucky. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s worth noting that Woebot is a therapy-specific AI chatbot, and it doesn’t use generative AI to respond to users the way that other tools like ChatGPT, or Claude, or DeepSeek do. This means that its interactions with users are a bit more predictable. It’s also engineered to respond the way that a therapist might. So instead of immediately jumping into offering advice, Woebot asks specific questions to encourage users to reflect and do the inner work themselves. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, it was designed by a psychologist. And so, you know, from that perspective, it it really is designed to focus on your mental health. The goal of Woebot is, you know, as a mental health tool, as a wellness tool, I think is how they market themselves. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Woebot is designed to use a set of techniques called cognitive behavioral therapy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, cognitive behavioral therapy helps you reframe your negative thoughts using specific exercises. And, you know, I think as any CBT, which is what it’s acronym is, it feels a little forced, but she did say it did help her reframe those negative thoughts and that she was able to think more more positively. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Can you talk about uh Lilly’s uh other diagnosis that maybe complicated this form of treatment? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She has obsessive-compulsive disorder, and sometimes that makes her fixate on worst-case scenarios. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of the time when people think about OCD they think of, just the very cliche like, “oh, you can’t stop washing your hands, you’re afraid of germs.” While that is a very real subtype that people experience, typically OCD like manifests in really taboo intrusive thoughts, and then the physical compulsions stem from trying to keep those themes away. And so, logically, you can know that, like, this doesn’t make sense, it’s not actually happening, but it just, it, it’s not just in your head, like physically it feels so real. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lilly is also diagnosed with anxiety and depression. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A symptom of depression is suicide ideation eventually, right? So she fixated on the idea that eventually because of her depression, that she may think about killing herself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My brain would be like, “Oh, you’ve struggled with depression in the past. There’s no saying that one day you won’t want to go through with suicide.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so she mentioned that she was worried about suicide in a session with Woebot. And Woebot came back and had a crisis alert and said, “hey, you better call the suicide hotline.” And she said, “no, no no, wait a second.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not experiencing suicidal inclinations, I’m just terrified that I will. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And luckily she knew that, she understood her disorder enough to know that nuance and to know what was happening in her brain because she had done so much previous therapy. But she said, you know, if she hadn’t really understood her disease, having that crisis alert come up may have even added more stress. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would have freaked out and been like, “oh my gosh, this this thing that is supposed to have this mental health knowledge thinks that I am suicidal. I must be suicidal, I must be a danger to myself.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know, in defense of Woebot, they came back and said, “hey, we’re not, you know, specifically targeting or for people who have OCD. We really are just a wellness tool. “But her story illustrates where AI doesn’t necessarily have the nuance, the understanding — that a human, like a human therapist would have picked up on that. They would have understood that she had OCD and really understood the nuances of that, whereas in this case, Woebot didn’t. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. It sounds like Wobot was inadvertently validating this intrusive thought that she was having because she has OCD. And when you’re really depressed or anxious, it might be helpful for your feelings to be validated like that. But how does that compare to the recommended treatment for OCD? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean the recommended treatment for OCD is generally exposure therapy. So you expose yourself to whatever you’re scared of. And so in this case, a therapist would work with her in terms of exposing herself to those ideas, probably walk her through, you know, reality, et cetera, in a way that allows her to lean into her fears so that they’re not as scary and sort of wound up and keep going. And sort of overtake her. Whereas you, like a therapist wouldn’t stand up with a red flag and say, “Oh my God, you really are suicidal. Therefore you should call a hotline.” Right? Which is basically what Woebot did. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lilly’s case is just one example of the limits of AI therapy. Responding with a crisis alert wasn’t helpful for her specific needs, but it’s probably good that Woebot even has those guardrails in place. But what happens when AI chatbots go off script? How bad can it get? We’ll get into that when we come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">New tab. AI therapy … worst case scenarios. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Woebot can’t necessarily respond with the nuance of an actual human therapist. But it seems like it wasn’t giving Lilly bad advice. Um but let’s talk about examples of AI therapy doing the exact opposite of what it’s supposed to do. What happened with the National Eating Disorder Association hotline? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, that didn’t play out very well. They created a bot named Tessa and some of the users found that Tessa was giving them dieting advice. So these are folks \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh god. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who have, you know, anorexia, bulimia, and somehow Tessa’s wires got crossed and people were getting the exact advice that would be really dangerous for their eating disorders. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sharon Maxwell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The recommendations that Tessa gave me was that I could lose one to two pounds per week, that I should eat no more than 2,000 calories in a day, that I should have a calorie deficit of 500 to 1,000 calories per day. All of which might sound benign to the general listener, however, to an individual with an eating disorder, the focus of weight loss really fuels the eating disorder. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Sharon Maxwell, an eating disorder recovery educator, speaking to NPR about her experience with Tessa. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, NEDA, the National Eating Disorder Association, you know, pulled Tessa down and said, “this isn’t working very well.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it sounds like they just didn’t have that kind of guardrail in place. Like they didn’t anticipate that. Um, so even if Lilly didn’t really need Woebot to immediately jump into crisis mode, at least it had that guardrail to say, like, “hey, crisis.” But in the past, other AI chatbots have gotten into serious trouble for not responding to users’ red flags and just validating their responses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that happened in the case of Character AI, this AI app that lets users personalize an AI companion based on fictional characters, celebrities, historical figures, all that. Until a recent lawsuit, Character AI did not have any safety measures or disclaimers warning users that they weren’t talking to a real person. What led to this lawsuit? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, there was a 14-year-old who grew really attached to his character that he had created. Like you said, Character AI lets you create a character and then interact with that character. And, you know, not surprisingly, kind of like I did in my first experience with ChatGPT, it feels so good that you develop a little bit of an emotional connection. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so this 14-year-old did that over the course of several months. And then he started opening up about some of the distress that he was feeling. And the character, instead of steering, you know, this 14-year-old towards help, unfortunately the bot allegedly reinforced some suicidal thoughts and eventually the boy ended up taking his life. And so the lawsuit, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s terrible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly, it was really kind of horrific and it’s not the only one like this. There’s only a handful at this point, but it really is raising the red flag that these very empathetic responses are sort of like, you know parroting back, which is, again, what some AI does. Uh it can play out really, really poorly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what happened with the eating disorder hotline and Character AI, those are pretty extreme cases. Will most people actually experience those worst case scenarios? In your research, did you find anything about that? Or is it just like, are these just edge cases? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean we don’t have numbers yet. I think it’s really early in the arc of this technology. I think the experts are most worried about platforms that are like Character AI, where you are building a relationship with a character. In their defense, they’re not built as mental health tools, right? These are not marketing themselves as mental health tools. They are, you know, marketing themselves as, “hey, here, we’re going to give you a friend.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yet, you know, like a friend, like you and I probably do with our friends, we lean on our friends. We talk to our friends. We build emotional connections with our friends. We trust our friends for the right advice, right? And these are robots. So that relationship is not uh, you know, built on human connection. And like we can see it can go wrong. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another concern that I have, you know, as a tech reporter is uh privacy. ChatGPT, for example, isn’t HIPAA compliant. Could you explain what HIPPA is and why it’s necessary with medical information? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean HIPAA is the regulation that keeps all of our data safe. So when you go to the doctor, a doctor is required to keep all of your medical information, you know, totally private. It’s not going to be given anywhere. It’s not going to leak away. That is the privacy regulations. Now, some of these platforms, you know, for example, like Woebot, uh Rosebud is one, which is a platform that’s more like a journaling service. Uh you know, they say they’re HIPAA compliant, but there’s no one regulating them. It’s not like the American Medical Association is regulating them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, that data, you don’t really know where it’s going. You’re trusting these companies who are profit driven. You know, I mean, hopefully Woebot and Rosebud, you know, are following their own promises to their consumers. But there might be other companies that, you know, definitely ChatGPT is not, you know, promising that they’re HIPAA compliant. And, you know, that information is being used, is being put out there to retrain the model. And so, you know, hopefully they’re not gonna sell your data to advertisers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, also, I mean, the kind of a worst-case scenario, this fortunately hasn’t happened yet, but, you know, what if your mental health information gets out there, an insurance company gets wind of that, and your premiums start going up because they know that you’re struggling with something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh wow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know, again, that hasn’t happen yet. Those are sort of like the worst- case scenarios. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But again, worst-case scenarios. Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Obviously, the priority of pretty much any for profit company is to monetize. But, do AI companies have any incentive to improve as more people turn to their products for therapy, even if they aren’t necessarily mental health specific chatbots? Um, you know, are there better safety measures, more transparency about data collection, especially given the Character AI lawsuit? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think they have that incentive. They also have the incentive to keep you hooked. So I think that’s the sort of like fine line. We’ve seen that with all social media, right? They’re getting a lot better at keeping our attention. AI companies have the same needs and incentives to keep people coming back. And so, you know, I think it’s gonna be a gray area and it’s going to be, unfortunately, like the social media companies, it’s gonna be really up to the creators of these products on whether or not they’re gonna have a really ethical orientation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite all of these issues, therapy is so inaccessible that unfortunately, AI chatbots might feel like the only immediate tool that people have when seeking treatment. How did we get here? Let’s open one last tab. The mental healthcare crisis. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You had mentioned earlier the state of mental health care. Why is it so hard to see a therapist? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, the demand for mental health services is really at an all-time high, and it’s surged even more, you know, since the pandemic began and continues to do so. I think there’s something like one in five Americans have some kind of a mental health issue, and yet they have a significant barrier to getting to a therapist. You know, I think it’s 55% of counties, people don’t have access to a psychotherapist or a social worker or a psychologist. They’re just aren’t any in that area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, you know, I think because of this issue that these sort of mental health deserts, AI is a kind of natural fill-in. You know, It’s available 24-7. You don’t need insurance to get there. You don’t have a high deductible. Uh, you don’t have to prove to anyone that, you know, that you have a mental health condition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You don’t get accepted. Uh, so it’s easy and accessible. And I think that it will mean that more and more people are going to use this and hopefully, they’ll be well-informed consumers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. You know, given the shortage of providers, and like you mentioned, insurance issues. Um, since the pandemic started, telehealth therapy has become pretty popular. But I’ve seen a lot of complaints about these kind of quick, one-size-fits-all mental health care platforms like BetterHelp, which matches users with Licensed Therapist or Cerebral, which sets users up with a psychiatrist that can prescribe medications like antidepressants or ADHD meds. And both of these services were created to, kind of fill this void that you’re talking about, but at the same time, they’re kind of plagued with their own issues. It seems like making therapy quick and accessible isn’t always as easy as it seems. What do you think? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think there’s absolutely a role for telehealth. I think there’s absolutely a role for AI therapy. I think anyone would probably say that having a really heartfelt connection with a therapist in an office, live human, feels different than if you are talking to a screen. And the emotional repair that can happen in that session with a live human I think is different and potentially more profound than with a robot. That might change over time. You know, I don’t know how good these things are going to get. They already feel a little bit too good for my own comfort. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, but they might, they might get even better. You know, same thing, I think the telehealth model at this point is pretty early. I think that they are still refining how well those things work. I think it’s similar with AI therapy. And, you know, I think the, the tricky thing here as well with any of these technological solutions is that we are also living in a pretty isolated way in our lives right now. If you’re taking even like your therapy to a computer, that’s one less human that you’re interacting with. And maybe you’re, you know, mental health issues are because you’re dealing with isolation, with estrangement, with disconnection. Those feelings might even become more escalated if you’re, you know, using telehealth or using AI therapy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I saw both responses and reflections when I was reading these Reddit threads, you know, from people who were in rural places. I knew that they were feeling more isolated using an AI therapy and others who said, “you know, it was a godsend because I was so alone, at least someone was listening to me. ” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For your story on AI therapy, you talked to a bunch of psychologists and, you know, real-life human psychologists, um and, you know, someone from the American Psychological Association. Are human therapists concerned about being replaced by AI? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t hear that from them yet. Number one, they’re still really in high demand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I don’t think they’re feeling that crunch yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s still a shortage, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s still a huge shortage. And I think, they’re, they’re fairly confident that what they offer is different than what AI therapy offers. And, you know, they can pick up on subtle cues that AI, you know, can’t, say like body language or, you know, pace of speech. These things can reveal a lot about our mental health state, and AI can’t pick up on that stuff. So, and in the deeper bonds, the deeper attachment work that you might do in therapy, I think therapists are quite confident that they’re still better at that. Uh, so in this moment, I would say they’re not, they’re not especially worried. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve talked about the downsides of AI therapy pretty extensively. Um but, you had mentioned like that they can kind of be a tool in a bigger treatment plan while also seeing a real therapist. If someone is going to use AI therapy, how should they approach it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Yeah. I think, that’s the message I hope comes across in my reporting, is that, you know, there are these worst case scenarios. Again, I think that the consumer should be educated on how their data is going to be used and understand how the company operates so that they’re not sharing uh really vulnerable information. But I think as a sort of, you know, addition to your yoga, your meditation, your, uh, you know, walks in nature, I think AI can really be a self-regulation tool. And I think it can be used quite well. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I talked to one company, Rosebud, which is a kind of journaling platform, which it asks you questions to kind of inspire you to express whatever’s going on and help you reflect. And it can follow a thread. So if you mentioned something two weeks ago about your relationship and what was going wrong, it will check in with you about what is happening and help you make sense of that. And I was on it. You know, I’m not a huge pen and paper person. You know, I don’t write anything anymore, so my arm hurts really quickly. And so, I enjoy, you know, I like just would pick up my phone and I would journal just, you know, talking to it and it would ask me questions and it felt, you know, fairly similar to a conversation with a friend. And I would always feel quite a bit better afterwards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, in that sense, I think it can be quite helpful because, you know, maybe I’m in therapy once a week, but I’m having a panic attack on Monday night and my, you know, appointment is not until Thursday. I think in that sense, you know, it’s four o’clock in the morning. I can’t call a human therapist no matter what, even if I do have one. You know, to sit down and have the opportunity to have something that’s engaging me, um, I think can be really helpful. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m really curious, since you started reporting on this story, have you used ChatGPT, uh, not necessarily as a therapist, but you know, as this kind of mental health tool that you’re talking about since? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I wish I had the positive spin to be like, “yes, I’m relying on it all the time.” You know, I didn’t and I don’t. Um, I felt a little bit like one more thing to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I felt similarly, you know, we talked about Lilly at the beginning of the story, and the reason that she stopped using Woebot was not because, you know, it had the crisis alert or it sort of like poorly dealt with her OCD, she got tired of being on her phone. She was like, “I didn’t want to be on my phone anymore. I wanted to talk to someone.”. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I feel that. You know, that was, that was, kind of my reasoning, you know, because of my job, I’m on a computer, you know, nearly all day long, and I didn’t want one more thing on the computer or one more thing on my phone. I can imagine, you know, if I was going through a really tough time again, you know, turning to it. Um, luckily, I’m in a bit of a good moment, so I haven’t been using it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. You can unplug now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. I’m going to enjoy this moment and ride the wave of goodness. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks again to KQED’s Lesley McClurg: for talking with us about this story. You can check out more of her reporting on healthcare, including this story on AI Therapy at KQED.org. Again, AI therapy tools work best when they’re used in addition to treatment under a licensed professional. But if it’s the only option accessible to you right now, there are AI tools specifically designed for mental health and wellness that might be more useful than the general chatbots like ChatGPT or Claude. For now, let’s close these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. Our producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts and helps edit the show. Sound design by Maya Cuaiva, Chris Egusa, and Brendan Willard. Original music by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. Mixing and mastering by Brendan Willard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad and Alana Walker. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Holly Kernan is our Chief Content Officer. Support for this program comes from Birong Hu and supporters of the KQED Studios Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. If you have feedback, or a topic you think we should cover, hit us up at CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. Follow us on instagram at “close all tabs pod.” Or drop it on Discord — we’re in the Close All Tabs channel at discord.gg/KQED. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you’re enjoying the show, give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you use. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After a divorce, KQED health reporter Lesley McClurg felt anxious over the prospect of dating again. On a whim, she turned to ChatGPT for a little emotional support — and found herself unexpectedly comforted. That experience launched her investigation into the fast-growing world of AI therapy. In this episode, Lesley joins Morgan to explore the promise and pitfalls of mental health chatbots — and what users should know before sharing their deepest feelings with an algorithm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC5629008096\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/lesleymcclurg\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lesley McClurg\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, KQED Health Correspondent\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1996504/ai-replace-therapist-benefits-risks-unsettling-truths\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can AI Replace Your Therapist? The Benefits, Risks and Unsettling Truths\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Lesley McClurg, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/sections/shots-health-news/2025/04/07/nx-s1-5351312/artificial-intelligence-mental-health-therapy\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The AI therapist can see you now\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Katia Riddle, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NPR\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://spectrum.ieee.org/woebot\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Woebot, a Mental-Health Chatbot, Tries Out Generative AI\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Casey Sackett, Devin Harper, and Aaron Pavez, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">IEEE Spectrum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A quick heads up before we start. This episode includes discussions of suicide and mental health conditions, which may be distressing for some listeners. If you or someone you know need support, we’ll have links to resources in the episode description. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I was going through a divorce and started dating after my divorce and hadn’t dated in many years and came home after a date one night and was just really anxious and kind of disheveled and needed some advice. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is KQED health reporter Lesley McClurg. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was late at night and I had used ChatGPT for, you know, other things and found it pretty helpful and I thought, what about for this moment in my life? And so I asked Chat whether or not I should reach out to this person that I had just dated because I was feeling like the night hadn’t gone that well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was late at night. She didn’t want to bug a friend about this, and really, she was feeling pretty vulnerable. She didn’t want to be judged. And so, ChatGPT was right there, ready to cheerfully answer her questions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was surprised that it was so good. I just remember after, you know, a few back and forths, I realized that really I was just nervous, really I just needed to take a deep breath. Basically I had created a big storm in my head. And Chat basically was like, “hey, chill, relax, it could have gone well. There’s another way this could have played out, not the sort of devastating reality that you’re playing out right now. Maybe give it a day or two and then reach out.” And so in that moment, it just sort of helped me take the gas off and come back into myself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was exactly what she needed to hear at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I didn’t text the person, which was the right call, and kind of used it as I warmed myself back up into the dating world, and it was really helpful. And so it made me then, as a reporter, start asking, “should I be telling this thing all about my love life? Is this a good idea, privacy-wise, et cetera?” And so that’s where it sort of seeded my reporting going forward. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lesley isn’t the only one turning to ChatGPT for therapy. If you’ve ever dealt with any health insurance company, you’re probably familiar with the hassle of getting care. And mental health care is especially inaccessible. AI chatbots though, they’re convenient, cost little to nothing to use, and in Lesley’s case, can actually be pretty helpful. But a lot of people are also wary of turning to AI for therapy, can you trust it? What are you risking when you share your most vulnerable thoughts with a chatbot? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Access to actual mental health resources has become so limited. Cost and insurance aside, there’s a shortage of licensed human mental health professionals across the country. But can AI therapy really replace actual therapists? Okay, new tab. Does AI therapy work? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Over the course of your reporting, did you meet anyone who actually used an AI chatbot for therapy? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I actually talked to quite a few people who used AI therapy and I went online and read a lot of Reddit threads because this is quite the popular topic. I heard more positive stories than negatives. As a reporter, I wanted to illustrate someone who kind of had a nuanced experience, you know, good and bad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, Lesley found a woman named Lilly Payne:. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She had kind of the ideal story to illustrate that, yes, it helped her, but it wasn’t ideal. And so that was sort of like the character that I ended up, you know, focusing on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In your story, you mentioned that Lilly had turned to AI therapy um during the COVID lockdowns, which were a terrible time for a lot of us. But Lilly wasn’t just experiencing, you know, anxiety and depression and loneliness. Her situation was a little more complicated, right? Can you talk about that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean in her words, her life basically fell apart. She graduated from college, she had moved to New York City to pursue an arts career, was very excited. And if we can remember, you know, New York was sort of the epicenter of the early days of COVID. It was really bad. Lockdown was really scary and the hospitals were overflowing and it was not a good scene. And so she left her arts career, abandoned her dreams and moved back home, which was pretty painful, to her parents’ home in Kentucky. And she is sort of tucked away, and it just felt like a big failure. And she was really struggling with like, what’s next for my life? Where do I go from here? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was such a lonely time for so many people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Lilly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was not at a breaking point, but I wasn’t doing awesome. So I was like, “the more help, the better.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in all of that anxiety, she, you know, initially reached out and leaned on a lot of friends, but eventually she felt like she’d kind of worn those supports thin. And so she read about Woebot, this AI therapy platform in a health newsletter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I gave it a shot because I was like, why not? Everyone’s cooped up in their house. I will talk to this robot. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Initially it was really helpful. It did help her calm herself. I think she said she, you know, even just having it in her pocket helped her feel more in control in her life. I think she relied on it quite a bit in those early days to kind of find her ground again and be able to focus on, you know, re-imagining a new life from there while she was back at home with her parents in Kentucky. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s worth noting that Woebot is a therapy-specific AI chatbot, and it doesn’t use generative AI to respond to users the way that other tools like ChatGPT, or Claude, or DeepSeek do. This means that its interactions with users are a bit more predictable. It’s also engineered to respond the way that a therapist might. So instead of immediately jumping into offering advice, Woebot asks specific questions to encourage users to reflect and do the inner work themselves. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, it was designed by a psychologist. And so, you know, from that perspective, it it really is designed to focus on your mental health. The goal of Woebot is, you know, as a mental health tool, as a wellness tool, I think is how they market themselves. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Woebot is designed to use a set of techniques called cognitive behavioral therapy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, cognitive behavioral therapy helps you reframe your negative thoughts using specific exercises. And, you know, I think as any CBT, which is what it’s acronym is, it feels a little forced, but she did say it did help her reframe those negative thoughts and that she was able to think more more positively. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Can you talk about uh Lilly’s uh other diagnosis that maybe complicated this form of treatment? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She has obsessive-compulsive disorder, and sometimes that makes her fixate on worst-case scenarios. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most of the time when people think about OCD they think of, just the very cliche like, “oh, you can’t stop washing your hands, you’re afraid of germs.” While that is a very real subtype that people experience, typically OCD like manifests in really taboo intrusive thoughts, and then the physical compulsions stem from trying to keep those themes away. And so, logically, you can know that, like, this doesn’t make sense, it’s not actually happening, but it just, it, it’s not just in your head, like physically it feels so real. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lilly is also diagnosed with anxiety and depression. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A symptom of depression is suicide ideation eventually, right? So she fixated on the idea that eventually because of her depression, that she may think about killing herself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My brain would be like, “Oh, you’ve struggled with depression in the past. There’s no saying that one day you won’t want to go through with suicide.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so she mentioned that she was worried about suicide in a session with Woebot. And Woebot came back and had a crisis alert and said, “hey, you better call the suicide hotline.” And she said, “no, no no, wait a second.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not experiencing suicidal inclinations, I’m just terrified that I will. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And luckily she knew that, she understood her disorder enough to know that nuance and to know what was happening in her brain because she had done so much previous therapy. But she said, you know, if she hadn’t really understood her disease, having that crisis alert come up may have even added more stress. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lilly Payne: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would have freaked out and been like, “oh my gosh, this this thing that is supposed to have this mental health knowledge thinks that I am suicidal. I must be suicidal, I must be a danger to myself.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know, in defense of Woebot, they came back and said, “hey, we’re not, you know, specifically targeting or for people who have OCD. We really are just a wellness tool. “But her story illustrates where AI doesn’t necessarily have the nuance, the understanding — that a human, like a human therapist would have picked up on that. They would have understood that she had OCD and really understood the nuances of that, whereas in this case, Woebot didn’t. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. It sounds like Wobot was inadvertently validating this intrusive thought that she was having because she has OCD. And when you’re really depressed or anxious, it might be helpful for your feelings to be validated like that. But how does that compare to the recommended treatment for OCD? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean the recommended treatment for OCD is generally exposure therapy. So you expose yourself to whatever you’re scared of. And so in this case, a therapist would work with her in terms of exposing herself to those ideas, probably walk her through, you know, reality, et cetera, in a way that allows her to lean into her fears so that they’re not as scary and sort of wound up and keep going. And sort of overtake her. Whereas you, like a therapist wouldn’t stand up with a red flag and say, “Oh my God, you really are suicidal. Therefore you should call a hotline.” Right? Which is basically what Woebot did. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lilly’s case is just one example of the limits of AI therapy. Responding with a crisis alert wasn’t helpful for her specific needs, but it’s probably good that Woebot even has those guardrails in place. But what happens when AI chatbots go off script? How bad can it get? We’ll get into that when we come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">New tab. AI therapy … worst case scenarios. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Woebot can’t necessarily respond with the nuance of an actual human therapist. But it seems like it wasn’t giving Lilly bad advice. Um but let’s talk about examples of AI therapy doing the exact opposite of what it’s supposed to do. What happened with the National Eating Disorder Association hotline? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, that didn’t play out very well. They created a bot named Tessa and some of the users found that Tessa was giving them dieting advice. So these are folks \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh god. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who have, you know, anorexia, bulimia, and somehow Tessa’s wires got crossed and people were getting the exact advice that would be really dangerous for their eating disorders. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sharon Maxwell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The recommendations that Tessa gave me was that I could lose one to two pounds per week, that I should eat no more than 2,000 calories in a day, that I should have a calorie deficit of 500 to 1,000 calories per day. All of which might sound benign to the general listener, however, to an individual with an eating disorder, the focus of weight loss really fuels the eating disorder. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Sharon Maxwell, an eating disorder recovery educator, speaking to NPR about her experience with Tessa. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, NEDA, the National Eating Disorder Association, you know, pulled Tessa down and said, “this isn’t working very well.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it sounds like they just didn’t have that kind of guardrail in place. Like they didn’t anticipate that. Um, so even if Lilly didn’t really need Woebot to immediately jump into crisis mode, at least it had that guardrail to say, like, “hey, crisis.” But in the past, other AI chatbots have gotten into serious trouble for not responding to users’ red flags and just validating their responses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that happened in the case of Character AI, this AI app that lets users personalize an AI companion based on fictional characters, celebrities, historical figures, all that. Until a recent lawsuit, Character AI did not have any safety measures or disclaimers warning users that they weren’t talking to a real person. What led to this lawsuit? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, there was a 14-year-old who grew really attached to his character that he had created. Like you said, Character AI lets you create a character and then interact with that character. And, you know, not surprisingly, kind of like I did in my first experience with ChatGPT, it feels so good that you develop a little bit of an emotional connection. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so this 14-year-old did that over the course of several months. And then he started opening up about some of the distress that he was feeling. And the character, instead of steering, you know, this 14-year-old towards help, unfortunately the bot allegedly reinforced some suicidal thoughts and eventually the boy ended up taking his life. And so the lawsuit, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s terrible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly, it was really kind of horrific and it’s not the only one like this. There’s only a handful at this point, but it really is raising the red flag that these very empathetic responses are sort of like, you know parroting back, which is, again, what some AI does. Uh it can play out really, really poorly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what happened with the eating disorder hotline and Character AI, those are pretty extreme cases. Will most people actually experience those worst case scenarios? In your research, did you find anything about that? Or is it just like, are these just edge cases? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean we don’t have numbers yet. I think it’s really early in the arc of this technology. I think the experts are most worried about platforms that are like Character AI, where you are building a relationship with a character. In their defense, they’re not built as mental health tools, right? These are not marketing themselves as mental health tools. They are, you know, marketing themselves as, “hey, here, we’re going to give you a friend.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yet, you know, like a friend, like you and I probably do with our friends, we lean on our friends. We talk to our friends. We build emotional connections with our friends. We trust our friends for the right advice, right? And these are robots. So that relationship is not uh, you know, built on human connection. And like we can see it can go wrong. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another concern that I have, you know, as a tech reporter is uh privacy. ChatGPT, for example, isn’t HIPAA compliant. Could you explain what HIPPA is and why it’s necessary with medical information? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean HIPAA is the regulation that keeps all of our data safe. So when you go to the doctor, a doctor is required to keep all of your medical information, you know, totally private. It’s not going to be given anywhere. It’s not going to leak away. That is the privacy regulations. Now, some of these platforms, you know, for example, like Woebot, uh Rosebud is one, which is a platform that’s more like a journaling service. Uh you know, they say they’re HIPAA compliant, but there’s no one regulating them. It’s not like the American Medical Association is regulating them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, that data, you don’t really know where it’s going. You’re trusting these companies who are profit driven. You know, I mean, hopefully Woebot and Rosebud, you know, are following their own promises to their consumers. But there might be other companies that, you know, definitely ChatGPT is not, you know, promising that they’re HIPAA compliant. And, you know, that information is being used, is being put out there to retrain the model. And so, you know, hopefully they’re not gonna sell your data to advertisers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, also, I mean, the kind of a worst-case scenario, this fortunately hasn’t happened yet, but, you know, what if your mental health information gets out there, an insurance company gets wind of that, and your premiums start going up because they know that you’re struggling with something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh wow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, you know, again, that hasn’t happen yet. Those are sort of like the worst- case scenarios. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But again, worst-case scenarios. Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Obviously, the priority of pretty much any for profit company is to monetize. But, do AI companies have any incentive to improve as more people turn to their products for therapy, even if they aren’t necessarily mental health specific chatbots? Um, you know, are there better safety measures, more transparency about data collection, especially given the Character AI lawsuit? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think they have that incentive. They also have the incentive to keep you hooked. So I think that’s the sort of like fine line. We’ve seen that with all social media, right? They’re getting a lot better at keeping our attention. AI companies have the same needs and incentives to keep people coming back. And so, you know, I think it’s gonna be a gray area and it’s going to be, unfortunately, like the social media companies, it’s gonna be really up to the creators of these products on whether or not they’re gonna have a really ethical orientation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite all of these issues, therapy is so inaccessible that unfortunately, AI chatbots might feel like the only immediate tool that people have when seeking treatment. How did we get here? Let’s open one last tab. The mental healthcare crisis. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You had mentioned earlier the state of mental health care. Why is it so hard to see a therapist? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I mean, the demand for mental health services is really at an all-time high, and it’s surged even more, you know, since the pandemic began and continues to do so. I think there’s something like one in five Americans have some kind of a mental health issue, and yet they have a significant barrier to getting to a therapist. You know, I think it’s 55% of counties, people don’t have access to a psychotherapist or a social worker or a psychologist. They’re just aren’t any in that area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, you know, I think because of this issue that these sort of mental health deserts, AI is a kind of natural fill-in. You know, It’s available 24-7. You don’t need insurance to get there. You don’t have a high deductible. Uh, you don’t have to prove to anyone that, you know, that you have a mental health condition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You don’t get accepted. Uh, so it’s easy and accessible. And I think that it will mean that more and more people are going to use this and hopefully, they’ll be well-informed consumers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. You know, given the shortage of providers, and like you mentioned, insurance issues. Um, since the pandemic started, telehealth therapy has become pretty popular. But I’ve seen a lot of complaints about these kind of quick, one-size-fits-all mental health care platforms like BetterHelp, which matches users with Licensed Therapist or Cerebral, which sets users up with a psychiatrist that can prescribe medications like antidepressants or ADHD meds. And both of these services were created to, kind of fill this void that you’re talking about, but at the same time, they’re kind of plagued with their own issues. It seems like making therapy quick and accessible isn’t always as easy as it seems. What do you think? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think there’s absolutely a role for telehealth. I think there’s absolutely a role for AI therapy. I think anyone would probably say that having a really heartfelt connection with a therapist in an office, live human, feels different than if you are talking to a screen. And the emotional repair that can happen in that session with a live human I think is different and potentially more profound than with a robot. That might change over time. You know, I don’t know how good these things are going to get. They already feel a little bit too good for my own comfort. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, but they might, they might get even better. You know, same thing, I think the telehealth model at this point is pretty early. I think that they are still refining how well those things work. I think it’s similar with AI therapy. And, you know, I think the, the tricky thing here as well with any of these technological solutions is that we are also living in a pretty isolated way in our lives right now. If you’re taking even like your therapy to a computer, that’s one less human that you’re interacting with. And maybe you’re, you know, mental health issues are because you’re dealing with isolation, with estrangement, with disconnection. Those feelings might even become more escalated if you’re, you know, using telehealth or using AI therapy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I saw both responses and reflections when I was reading these Reddit threads, you know, from people who were in rural places. I knew that they were feeling more isolated using an AI therapy and others who said, “you know, it was a godsend because I was so alone, at least someone was listening to me. ” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For your story on AI therapy, you talked to a bunch of psychologists and, you know, real-life human psychologists, um and, you know, someone from the American Psychological Association. Are human therapists concerned about being replaced by AI? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t hear that from them yet. Number one, they’re still really in high demand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I don’t think they’re feeling that crunch yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s still a shortage, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s still a huge shortage. And I think, they’re, they’re fairly confident that what they offer is different than what AI therapy offers. And, you know, they can pick up on subtle cues that AI, you know, can’t, say like body language or, you know, pace of speech. These things can reveal a lot about our mental health state, and AI can’t pick up on that stuff. So, and in the deeper bonds, the deeper attachment work that you might do in therapy, I think therapists are quite confident that they’re still better at that. Uh, so in this moment, I would say they’re not, they’re not especially worried. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve talked about the downsides of AI therapy pretty extensively. Um but, you had mentioned like that they can kind of be a tool in a bigger treatment plan while also seeing a real therapist. If someone is going to use AI therapy, how should they approach it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Yeah. I think, that’s the message I hope comes across in my reporting, is that, you know, there are these worst case scenarios. Again, I think that the consumer should be educated on how their data is going to be used and understand how the company operates so that they’re not sharing uh really vulnerable information. But I think as a sort of, you know, addition to your yoga, your meditation, your, uh, you know, walks in nature, I think AI can really be a self-regulation tool. And I think it can be used quite well. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I talked to one company, Rosebud, which is a kind of journaling platform, which it asks you questions to kind of inspire you to express whatever’s going on and help you reflect. And it can follow a thread. So if you mentioned something two weeks ago about your relationship and what was going wrong, it will check in with you about what is happening and help you make sense of that. And I was on it. You know, I’m not a huge pen and paper person. You know, I don’t write anything anymore, so my arm hurts really quickly. And so, I enjoy, you know, I like just would pick up my phone and I would journal just, you know, talking to it and it would ask me questions and it felt, you know, fairly similar to a conversation with a friend. And I would always feel quite a bit better afterwards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, in that sense, I think it can be quite helpful because, you know, maybe I’m in therapy once a week, but I’m having a panic attack on Monday night and my, you know, appointment is not until Thursday. I think in that sense, you know, it’s four o’clock in the morning. I can’t call a human therapist no matter what, even if I do have one. You know, to sit down and have the opportunity to have something that’s engaging me, um, I think can be really helpful. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m really curious, since you started reporting on this story, have you used ChatGPT, uh, not necessarily as a therapist, but you know, as this kind of mental health tool that you’re talking about since? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I wish I had the positive spin to be like, “yes, I’m relying on it all the time.” You know, I didn’t and I don’t. Um, I felt a little bit like one more thing to do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I felt similarly, you know, we talked about Lilly at the beginning of the story, and the reason that she stopped using Woebot was not because, you know, it had the crisis alert or it sort of like poorly dealt with her OCD, she got tired of being on her phone. She was like, “I didn’t want to be on my phone anymore. I wanted to talk to someone.”. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I feel that. You know, that was, that was, kind of my reasoning, you know, because of my job, I’m on a computer, you know, nearly all day long, and I didn’t want one more thing on the computer or one more thing on my phone. I can imagine, you know, if I was going through a really tough time again, you know, turning to it. Um, luckily, I’m in a bit of a good moment, so I haven’t been using it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. You can unplug now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. I’m going to enjoy this moment and ride the wave of goodness. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks again to KQED’s Lesley McClurg: for talking with us about this story. You can check out more of her reporting on healthcare, including this story on AI Therapy at KQED.org. Again, AI therapy tools work best when they’re used in addition to treatment under a licensed professional. But if it’s the only option accessible to you right now, there are AI tools specifically designed for mental health and wellness that might be more useful than the general chatbots like ChatGPT or Claude. For now, let’s close these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. Our producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts and helps edit the show. Sound design by Maya Cuaiva, Chris Egusa, and Brendan Willard. Original music by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. Mixing and mastering by Brendan Willard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad and Alana Walker. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Holly Kernan is our Chief Content Officer. Support for this program comes from Birong Hu and supporters of the KQED Studios Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink Dustsilver K-84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron Red switches. If you have feedback, or a topic you think we should cover, hit us up at CloseAllTabs@kqed.org. Follow us on instagram at “close all tabs pod.” Or drop it on Discord — we’re in the Close All Tabs channel at discord.gg/KQED. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you’re enjoying the show, give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you use. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>For many people, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/google\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Google\u003c/a> search is the default, as obvious and unremarkable as water is to fish. That could soon change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2020, the U.S. Department of Justice and a group of states,\u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-becerra-moves-join-federal-lawsuit-against-google\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"> later joined by California\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/press-release/file/1328941/dl\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">accused Google\u003c/a> of illegally stifling competition by paying to have its search engine as the default on web browsers and phones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the complaint, the DOJ argued, “Largely as a result of Google’s exclusionary agreements and anticompetitive conduct, Google in recent years has accounted for nearly 90 percent of all general-search-engine queries in the United States, and almost 95 percent of queries on mobile devices.” Google’s monopoly in general search services thus provided the company “extraordinary power as the gateway to the internet, which it uses to promote its own web content and increase its profits.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Last summer, U.S. District Judge Amit Mehta \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101906758/will-the-government-break-up-google\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">agreed\u003c/a>, ruling after a 10-week trial that “Google is a monopolist, and it has acted as one to maintain its monopoly.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, during a remedies phase expected to stretch over several weeks, attorneys for the Justice Department and Google will present competing visions of how to remedy the company’s monopolistic behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The Google search case, in my opinion, is the most important case about the Internet since the Internet was invented,” said Doha Mekki, \u003ca href=\"https://www.justice.gov/archives/atr/staff-profile/doha-mekki-acting-assistant-attorney-general\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">formerly a top antitrust official at the DOJ\u003c/a>, and currently a senior fellow at UC Berkeley’s Center for Consumer Law and Economic Justice. “The idea that we have to trust all of our innovation and ingenuity to this small set of companies is actually deeply un-American.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11999023\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11999023\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GoogleAntitrustGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GoogleAntitrustGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GoogleAntitrustGetty-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GoogleAntitrustGetty-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GoogleAntitrustGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GoogleAntitrustGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GoogleAntitrustGetty-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">After a judge ruled that Google held an illegal monopoly on search, legal analysts are split on whether the case will break up the company or influence other antitrust lawsuits. \u003ccite>(Drew Angerer/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>During her decade-long tenure at the Justice Department, Mekki had a front-row seat to a series of major antitrust cases the agency has pursued since the first Trump Administration, including cases against \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12036411/googles-ad-dominance-is-illegal-federal-judge-rules\">Google over its advertising technology\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12035855/metas-purchased-dominance-social-media-ftc-trial\">Facebook\u003c/a> over its purchases of WhatsApp and Instagram.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mekki argues this Google antitrust case comes at a pivotal moment when large tech companies are jostling for a lead position in the development of generative artificial intelligence. “AI has done nothing to disturb the Internet search monopoly. ChatGPT has not displaced Google search,” Mekki said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Silicon Valley giant has already said it will appeal. “The U.S. Department of Justice’s 2020 search distribution lawsuit is a backwards-looking case at a time of intense \u003ca href=\"https://storage.googleapis.com/gweb-uniblog-publish-prod/documents/AI_has_Transformed_the_Tech_Industry_-_Google_Docs.pdf\">competition\u003c/a> and unprecedented innovation. With new services like ChatGPT (and foreign competitors like DeepSeek) thriving, DOJ’s sweeping remedy proposals are both unnecessary and harmful,” Lee-Anne Mulholland, Google’s Vice President for Regulatory Affairs, \u003ca href=\"https://blog.google/outreach-initiatives/public-policy/doj-search-remedies-apr-2025/\">wrote\u003c/a> in a blog post.[aside postID=news_12036411 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/04/GettyImages-2166671481-1020x703.jpg']In the company’s early days, Google’s search service was widely praised for its credibility. But over time, the company began to prioritize ad revenue, and its highly profitable advertising business has been powered by data harvested from user activity on Google Search and Chrome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the nearly three decades since Larry Page and Sergey Brin launched Google as a research project at Stanford University, the company has drawn criticism because of its practice of topping search results with paid product placements and even \u003ca href=\"https://www.malwarebytes.com/blog/scams/2024/04/google-ad-for-facebook-redirects-to-scam\">scam links\u003c/a>. “We heard throughout the investigation and trial of this case that Internet search is not what it used to be, that the Google search page is now more littered with ads, and there’s more routing to Google’s products and services,” Mekki said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The DOJ is seeking strong remedies to address Google’s unlawful monopoly in the online search market, including proposing that Google be required to sell its Chrome browser and barring Google from entering into agreements that set its search engine as the default on devices and browsers, such as those it has with Apple. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It seems like a bad idea to have people paying tens of billions of dollars to buy placement of their search engines,” said Mark Lemley, who teaches intellectual property, antitrust and internet law at Stanford Law School. “We’d probably be better off in a world in which Apple couldn’t just auction off to the highest bidder what search engine you were going to use. But Apple’s not the defendant in this case. Google is.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lemley added that Judge Mehta’s challenge is to respond to a search market where there aren’t many viable alternatives to Google search.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lemley argues that the court might consider giving consumers a choice screen from which they can select Google or one of its rivals, like Bing. “My guess is most people choose Google, and so it’s not obvious that the Google monopoly in search is much diminished if that happens, but at least we’re giving [consumers] an option up front.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>For many people, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/google\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Google\u003c/a> search is the default, as obvious and unremarkable as water is to fish. That could soon change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2020, the U.S. Department of Justice and a group of states,\u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-becerra-moves-join-federal-lawsuit-against-google\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"> later joined by California\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/press-release/file/1328941/dl\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">accused Google\u003c/a> of illegally stifling competition by paying to have its search engine as the default on web browsers and phones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the complaint, the DOJ argued, “Largely as a result of Google’s exclusionary agreements and anticompetitive conduct, Google in recent years has accounted for nearly 90 percent of all general-search-engine queries in the United States, and almost 95 percent of queries on mobile devices.” Google’s monopoly in general search services thus provided the company “extraordinary power as the gateway to the internet, which it uses to promote its own web content and increase its profits.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Last summer, U.S. District Judge Amit Mehta \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101906758/will-the-government-break-up-google\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">agreed\u003c/a>, ruling after a 10-week trial that “Google is a monopolist, and it has acted as one to maintain its monopoly.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, during a remedies phase expected to stretch over several weeks, attorneys for the Justice Department and Google will present competing visions of how to remedy the company’s monopolistic behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The Google search case, in my opinion, is the most important case about the Internet since the Internet was invented,” said Doha Mekki, \u003ca href=\"https://www.justice.gov/archives/atr/staff-profile/doha-mekki-acting-assistant-attorney-general\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">formerly a top antitrust official at the DOJ\u003c/a>, and currently a senior fellow at UC Berkeley’s Center for Consumer Law and Economic Justice. “The idea that we have to trust all of our innovation and ingenuity to this small set of companies is actually deeply un-American.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11999023\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11999023\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GoogleAntitrustGetty.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GoogleAntitrustGetty.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GoogleAntitrustGetty-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GoogleAntitrustGetty-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GoogleAntitrustGetty-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GoogleAntitrustGetty-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GoogleAntitrustGetty-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">After a judge ruled that Google held an illegal monopoly on search, legal analysts are split on whether the case will break up the company or influence other antitrust lawsuits. \u003ccite>(Drew Angerer/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>During her decade-long tenure at the Justice Department, Mekki had a front-row seat to a series of major antitrust cases the agency has pursued since the first Trump Administration, including cases against \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12036411/googles-ad-dominance-is-illegal-federal-judge-rules\">Google over its advertising technology\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12035855/metas-purchased-dominance-social-media-ftc-trial\">Facebook\u003c/a> over its purchases of WhatsApp and Instagram.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mekki argues this Google antitrust case comes at a pivotal moment when large tech companies are jostling for a lead position in the development of generative artificial intelligence. “AI has done nothing to disturb the Internet search monopoly. ChatGPT has not displaced Google search,” Mekki said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Silicon Valley giant has already said it will appeal. “The U.S. Department of Justice’s 2020 search distribution lawsuit is a backwards-looking case at a time of intense \u003ca href=\"https://storage.googleapis.com/gweb-uniblog-publish-prod/documents/AI_has_Transformed_the_Tech_Industry_-_Google_Docs.pdf\">competition\u003c/a> and unprecedented innovation. With new services like ChatGPT (and foreign competitors like DeepSeek) thriving, DOJ’s sweeping remedy proposals are both unnecessary and harmful,” Lee-Anne Mulholland, Google’s Vice President for Regulatory Affairs, \u003ca href=\"https://blog.google/outreach-initiatives/public-policy/doj-search-remedies-apr-2025/\">wrote\u003c/a> in a blog post.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>In the company’s early days, Google’s search service was widely praised for its credibility. But over time, the company began to prioritize ad revenue, and its highly profitable advertising business has been powered by data harvested from user activity on Google Search and Chrome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the nearly three decades since Larry Page and Sergey Brin launched Google as a research project at Stanford University, the company has drawn criticism because of its practice of topping search results with paid product placements and even \u003ca href=\"https://www.malwarebytes.com/blog/scams/2024/04/google-ad-for-facebook-redirects-to-scam\">scam links\u003c/a>. “We heard throughout the investigation and trial of this case that Internet search is not what it used to be, that the Google search page is now more littered with ads, and there’s more routing to Google’s products and services,” Mekki said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The DOJ is seeking strong remedies to address Google’s unlawful monopoly in the online search market, including proposing that Google be required to sell its Chrome browser and barring Google from entering into agreements that set its search engine as the default on devices and browsers, such as those it has with Apple. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It seems like a bad idea to have people paying tens of billions of dollars to buy placement of their search engines,” said Mark Lemley, who teaches intellectual property, antitrust and internet law at Stanford Law School. “We’d probably be better off in a world in which Apple couldn’t just auction off to the highest bidder what search engine you were going to use. But Apple’s not the defendant in this case. Google is.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lemley added that Judge Mehta’s challenge is to respond to a search market where there aren’t many viable alternatives to Google search.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lemley argues that the court might consider giving consumers a choice screen from which they can select Google or one of its rivals, like Bing. “My guess is most people choose Google, and so it’s not obvious that the Google monopoly in search is much diminished if that happens, but at least we’re giving [consumers] an option up front.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>Google has illegally built “monopoly power” with its \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2024/09/10/nx-s1-5106389/google-is-back-in-court-this-time-over-its-digital-advertising-technology\">web advertising business\u003c/a>, a federal judge in Virginia \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/system/files/attachments/press-docs/Google%20AdTech%20decision.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">ruled (PDF)\u003c/a> on Thursday, siding with the Department of Justice in a landmark case against the tech giant that could reshape the basic economics of running a modern website.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In her ruling in the case, brought by the DOJ, the District of Columbia and 17 states including California, Judge Leonie Brinkema of the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia mostly agreed with the argument that Google’s monopoly in online advertising allowed it to charge higher prices and take a bigger cut of each ad sale. The Mountain View-based giant now faces the prospect of being forced to sell off some of its ad business, which brings in the lion’s share of its profits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Judge Brinkema’s ruling addresses the technology “stack” that determines what banner ads appear on countless sites across the web. She found that Google’s monopoly in ad exchanges and server markets violated the Sherman Antitrust Act, harming advertisers and consumers, and conditioning access to one product on paying for another.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In addition to depriving rivals of the ability to compete,” the judge wrote, “this exclusionary conduct substantially harmed Google’s publisher customers, the competitive process, and, ultimately, consumers of information on the open web.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The ruling is the latest in a series of antitrust challenges against Google, which together could force the company to undergo drastic restructuring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11999009/landmark-google-antitrust-case-could-shake-up-silicon-valley-heres-what-to-know\">Another case\u003c/a> might force it to sell off part of its search business, including its Chrome browser. A third antitrust case threatens yet another part of its empire: the Google Play Store. Filed by a coalition of state attorneys general and led by Epic Games, that case alleges Google engaged in exclusionary practices to maintain its dominance over Android app distribution and in-app payments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Taken together, the three lawsuits represent the most sweeping antitrust challenge Google has faced since its founding in 1998.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this latest lawsuit, the Justice Department didn’t win on all of its legal claims. The judge rejected the government’s position that Google unlawfully monopolized a third market within the ad tech industry: the market for networks that help advertisers buy display ads across the open web.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_11999009 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/GoogleAntitrustGetty-1020x680.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nonetheless, California Attorney General Bonta declared victory.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Advertising is key to a business’s success, and Google has been playing unfairly in the advertising space,” he wrote in a statement. “As the fifth largest economy in the world, California has an outsized role in protecting competition and a vibrant economy where business can thrive on merits, not on illegal business practices — today, we’ve done just that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Google’s parent company, Alphabet’s shares fell in Thursday morning trading, but company lawyers are declaring the ruling a partial win.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We won half of this case and we will appeal the other half,” Lee-Anne Mulholland, Google’s Vice President of Regulatory Affairs, \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/NewsFromGoogle/status/1912892999047971152\">wrote on X\u003c/a>. “The Court found that our advertiser tools and our acquisitions, such as DoubleClick, don’t harm competition. We disagree with the Court’s decision regarding our publisher tools. Publishers have many options, and they choose Google because our ad tech tools are simple, affordable and effective.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Silicon Valley giant’s hope for salvation may ultimately lie with the conservative-leaning U.S. Supreme Court. However, even though Republican appointees now control the Justice Department and Federal Trade Commission, they have signaled an intent to continue pursuing Big Tech in the courts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For example, this week, Meta’s trial got \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12035855/metas-purchased-dominance-social-media-ftc-trial\">underway\u003c/a> with CEO Mark Zuckerberg taking the stand to defend the company against claims it bought its competition to maintain dominance in social media. The Justice Department has also sued Apple, arguing that the company made it difficult for consumers to leave its tightly knit universe of devices and software. Meanwhile, the Federal Trade Commission is investigating \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11925651/california-sues-amazon-alleging-antitrust-and-unfair-competition-law-violations\">Amazon\u003c/a>‘s $3.9 billion acquisition of the primary health organization One Medical as well as the sign-up and cancellation practices of Amazon Prime, the company’s paid subscription service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Consumer advocates say this is a long time coming.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re excited to see such enthusiasm,” said Alison Rice with \u003ca href=\"https://accountabletech.org/about/\">Accountable Tech\u003c/a>, which targets the industry’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjDyqZoVwMA\">surveillance advertising business model\u003c/a>. “The mechanism and the model that Big Tech has been using is taking advantage of the power that they have over this entire ecosystem to leverage nefarious designs and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12028137/california-lawmakers-take-on-predatory-surveillance-pricing\">weaponize\u003c/a> them in order to drive profits.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Google has illegally built “monopoly power” with its \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2024/09/10/nx-s1-5106389/google-is-back-in-court-this-time-over-its-digital-advertising-technology\">web advertising business\u003c/a>, a federal judge in Virginia \u003ca href=\"https://oag.ca.gov/system/files/attachments/press-docs/Google%20AdTech%20decision.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">ruled (PDF)\u003c/a> on Thursday, siding with the Department of Justice in a landmark case against the tech giant that could reshape the basic economics of running a modern website.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In her ruling in the case, brought by the DOJ, the District of Columbia and 17 states including California, Judge Leonie Brinkema of the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia mostly agreed with the argument that Google’s monopoly in online advertising allowed it to charge higher prices and take a bigger cut of each ad sale. The Mountain View-based giant now faces the prospect of being forced to sell off some of its ad business, which brings in the lion’s share of its profits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Judge Brinkema’s ruling addresses the technology “stack” that determines what banner ads appear on countless sites across the web. She found that Google’s monopoly in ad exchanges and server markets violated the Sherman Antitrust Act, harming advertisers and consumers, and conditioning access to one product on paying for another.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In addition to depriving rivals of the ability to compete,” the judge wrote, “this exclusionary conduct substantially harmed Google’s publisher customers, the competitive process, and, ultimately, consumers of information on the open web.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The ruling is the latest in a series of antitrust challenges against Google, which together could force the company to undergo drastic restructuring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11999009/landmark-google-antitrust-case-could-shake-up-silicon-valley-heres-what-to-know\">Another case\u003c/a> might force it to sell off part of its search business, including its Chrome browser. A third antitrust case threatens yet another part of its empire: the Google Play Store. Filed by a coalition of state attorneys general and led by Epic Games, that case alleges Google engaged in exclusionary practices to maintain its dominance over Android app distribution and in-app payments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Taken together, the three lawsuits represent the most sweeping antitrust challenge Google has faced since its founding in 1998.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this latest lawsuit, the Justice Department didn’t win on all of its legal claims. The judge rejected the government’s position that Google unlawfully monopolized a third market within the ad tech industry: the market for networks that help advertisers buy display ads across the open web.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nonetheless, California Attorney General Bonta declared victory.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Advertising is key to a business’s success, and Google has been playing unfairly in the advertising space,” he wrote in a statement. “As the fifth largest economy in the world, California has an outsized role in protecting competition and a vibrant economy where business can thrive on merits, not on illegal business practices — today, we’ve done just that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Google’s parent company, Alphabet’s shares fell in Thursday morning trading, but company lawyers are declaring the ruling a partial win.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We won half of this case and we will appeal the other half,” Lee-Anne Mulholland, Google’s Vice President of Regulatory Affairs, \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/NewsFromGoogle/status/1912892999047971152\">wrote on X\u003c/a>. “The Court found that our advertiser tools and our acquisitions, such as DoubleClick, don’t harm competition. We disagree with the Court’s decision regarding our publisher tools. Publishers have many options, and they choose Google because our ad tech tools are simple, affordable and effective.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Silicon Valley giant’s hope for salvation may ultimately lie with the conservative-leaning U.S. Supreme Court. However, even though Republican appointees now control the Justice Department and Federal Trade Commission, they have signaled an intent to continue pursuing Big Tech in the courts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For example, this week, Meta’s trial got \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12035855/metas-purchased-dominance-social-media-ftc-trial\">underway\u003c/a> with CEO Mark Zuckerberg taking the stand to defend the company against claims it bought its competition to maintain dominance in social media. The Justice Department has also sued Apple, arguing that the company made it difficult for consumers to leave its tightly knit universe of devices and software. Meanwhile, the Federal Trade Commission is investigating \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11925651/california-sues-amazon-alleging-antitrust-and-unfair-competition-law-violations\">Amazon\u003c/a>‘s $3.9 billion acquisition of the primary health organization One Medical as well as the sign-up and cancellation practices of Amazon Prime, the company’s paid subscription service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Consumer advocates say this is a long time coming.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re excited to see such enthusiasm,” said Alison Rice with \u003ca href=\"https://accountabletech.org/about/\">Accountable Tech\u003c/a>, which targets the industry’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjDyqZoVwMA\">surveillance advertising business model\u003c/a>. “The mechanism and the model that Big Tech has been using is taking advantage of the power that they have over this entire ecosystem to leverage nefarious designs and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12028137/california-lawmakers-take-on-predatory-surveillance-pricing\">weaponize\u003c/a> them in order to drive profits.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Twitter on a Vape: Puff, Post, Pollute",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, tech reporter Samatha Cole shares what happened when she tried to “vape the internet” after seeing a viral post about a disposable touchscreen vape with built-in social media. We also hear from environmental philosopher and public health researcher Yogi Hale Hendlin, who says these high-tech disposables are made possible by a legal loophole — and that tackling the e-waste crisis will take a radical rethink of our relationship with the products we consume.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC1701619724\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/author/samantha-cole/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Samantha Cole\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Reporter and Co-Founder of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">404 Media\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.eur.nl/en/people/yogi-hendlin\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yogi Hale Hendlin\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Environmental Philosopher and Assistant Professor at Erasmus University\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/twitter-internet-vape-touchscreen-swype/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I Tried to Vape the Internet\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> – Samantha Cole, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">404 Media\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/vaping-ecigarettes-waste-environment-disposable-pollution-3d19dce9693ce78dd244729f524df02a\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Communities can’t recycle or trash disposable e-cigarettes. So what happens to them? \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">– Matthew Perrone, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Associated Press\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2025/01/26/vapes-flavors-china-teens-00194082\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How ‘Sour Raspberry Gummy Bear’ — and Other Chinese Vapes — Made Fools of American Lawmakers \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">– Marc Novicoff, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Politico \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://grist.org/regulation/the-right-to-repair-is-now-law-in-3-states-is-big-tech-complying/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The right to repair electronics is now law in 3 states. Is Big Tech complying? \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">– Maddie Stone, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Grist \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.materialfocus.org.uk/?press-releases=disposable-single-use-vapes-thrown-away-have-quadrupled-to-5-million-per-week\">Disposable vapes thrown away quadruples to 5M per week\u003c/a> – \u003ci>Material Focus\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samantha Cole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have never been a smoker, period. I have never smoked nicotine of any kind. Such a loser. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sam Cole is a tech journalist and co-founder of 404 Media, and last summer, she tried to vape the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samantha Cole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was this tweet going super viral back in July. It was a guy that was like, “no way we got Twitter on my vape.” And it was a photo of him holding a vape with Twitter on it, reading tweets on it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was exactly what it sounds like, a little flip phone-sized disposable vape, with a digital screen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samantha Cole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And everyone was freaking out about it. It became a meme format. Like, there was one where someone was putting Zillow on a vape. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In other posts, people were getting breaking news alerts on their vapes or playing games like Tetris and 2048. And Sam, being an intrepid journalist, was determined to figure out if it was real. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samantha Cole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m always looking for new ways to ingest the internet. So I was like, let me look in the comments or in the replies and see if anybody actually has it. And it turned out someone did have a link. God bless the internet. A lot of them were sold out. The other flavors were Fucking Fab — I wish I knew what Fucking Fab tasted like — Juicy Peach, obviously you can imagine. Violent Rainbow was also sold out, I’m sure it was disgusting, but Watermelon Ice was like the only one left. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sam lives in New York, but was staying in California for a few weeks. So she bought the Watermelon Ice smart vape and shipped it to her friend’s house in Los Angeles. This is relevant. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samantha Cole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was like, first of all, I can’t believe this goes through the mail. This definitely seems like something that shouldn’t between the battery and the vape juice and everything else and the electronics involved. I was like house sitting. I was, like, “I hope this doesn’t catch fire while I’m not at home.” It looks like a phone. It was, a pink, like a light pink square, kind of like a deck of cards almost. It had a touch screen that wasn’t, like, as janky as I expected a vape touch screen to be. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so the vape looked like a phone, but it didn’t really function as one. It couldn’t connect to the internet by itself. Sam actually had to download a separate app and connect it to the vape via Bluetooth, and then authorize different apps to send notifications to the vape. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samantha Cole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once you connected it to your phone, it would start getting push notifications from whatever apps that you set up to connect to the vape. So that’s where the Twitter on the vape came from. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was a calculator in case you need to do math while you’re vaping, and it also had a step tracker and a weather app and a few games, but a lot of the apps didn’t really work unless Sam’s phone was nearby. She said she couldn’t actually browse the internet on her vape, but because she was getting notifications on it, it created this cycle of getting pinged while puffing some watermelon ice and then checking her phone and then puffing again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samantha Cole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, I was very quickly like literally addicted to this thing, cause it was nicotine. I was bringing it everywhere. I was like, it was like a fun thing to show people ’cause obviously it’s like weird and kooky. I had it out like drinking and then I was vaping. I was, like, “man, this is, I need to put this away. I need you to put it in a drawer and not think about it.” And then it was just like calling me like the Green Goblin mask. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Green Goblin Mask: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">COWARD! We have a new world to conquer. Hahaha!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samantha Cole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was like, “I need a little, I need Watermelon Ice.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Sam wrote up this tongue-in-cheek blog post for 404 Media about trying to “vape the internet,” but after publishing it, she still found herself reaching for the vape. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samantha Cole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I was just like, this is like the dumbest blog I’ve ever written. It’s up there on like “the dumbest ways to get addicted to vaping” is this stunt where I’m trying to read Twitter on a vape. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s like you’re addicted to the nicotine and you’re addicted to your feed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samantha Cole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right, yeah, I was addicted to all of it at the same time, which is just so dark. Connecting like this very like neurochemical process of like being addicted to nicotine and then getting like dms on the vape and being like, “ooh who’s DMing me on twitter.” This is like such a dark path uh to go to down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sam ended up kicking the habit when she left the vape at her friend’s house in LA. She said she was scared to take it through airport security. And when she got back to New York, she resisted the temptation to buy another one. Since then, she’s managed to keep her nicotine consumption limited to the very occasional analog cigarette shared among friends. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But Sam said that her vape experience was an eye-opener in more ways than one. There was her brush with this combined nicotine and internet addiction, sure, but she’s also been thinking about another issue: just how wasteful these vapes are. Remember, they’re disposable. There’s no vape pod to swap out if you want to change flavors. You can’t refill it once it’s empty. And a lot of them aren’t even rechargeable. You can easily go through one in a few weeks or a few days if you’re really puffing. Which means that you’re constantly replacing them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samantha Cole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was a time in like New York / Bushwick, surely you recall this, but just the ground was just covered in used Juul pods. It was just everywhere. At the time, I was like, “this is an ecological disaster.” And now I think- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was like plastic everywhere. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samantha Cole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and it’s disgusting. And like, and you know, it’s like, I guess they put them in like cigarette butts, except they don’t degrade or anything. But then this I was like, “okay, when I finish this vape, I can’t refill it?” Even though it has all this stuff in it. Like it has like the touch screen, like it has chips inside of it, it has a battery inside of obviously, lots of plastic. So I was like, “damn, there’s a lot of like engineering that goes into this thing and then it becomes disposable within like a couple of weeks?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so what exactly makes vapes an “ecological disaster,” like Sam said? Are you supposed to recycle them? And how big of a problem is this really? That’s what we’re getting into today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung:, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">E-waste, or electronic waste, includes any electronic device that’s thrown away instead of recycled. It’s copper wires, semiconductors, circuit boards, LED screens, heavy metals, batteries, and more. It’s the stuff in our refrigerators and our old iPhones, and in our vapes. When these materials are dumped in landfills, they don’t really break down. And the sheer rate at which people are now buying, puffing, and then tossing disposable vapes, is rapidly adding to the e-waste crisis. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s make that our first tab. Disposable vapes and e-waste. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To explain how disposable vapes became so popular, let me take you back in time to the year 2019. This was the first ever “hot girl summer” as coined by Megan Thee Stallion and mango Juul pods were everywhere. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ty Dolla $ign: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Does she got it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a simpler time. And then, fear of popcorn lung swept the nation. Popcorn lung is the informal name for a lung condition in which the small airways in your lungs become so inflamed and scarred that breathing becomes extremely difficult. It’s from inhaling a chemical called diacetyl, which is used as a buttery flavoring in products like popcorn. It’s safe to eat, but when inhaled, it can cause permanent damage. That year, a ton of people especially teenagers, started to get really sick with mysterious lung issues. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A seemingly healthy Texas teenager suddenly unable to breathe and hospitalized with lung failure. His doctors suspect vaping was the cause. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The CDC released some new numbers today. The new numbers show more than 2,000 people now have been diagnosed with a vaping illness. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the United States, there were over 2,700 confirmed cases related to this mysterious vape illness and 68 deaths. One teenager in Canada had symptoms that aligned with popcorn lung, but all of the cases in the US involved pneumonia and other symptoms that aren’t present in popcorn lung. That pointed to another culprit. The CDC actually identified a different chemical as the probable cause of these vape-related cases: Vitamin E acetate. It was used in a lot of black market weed vape cartridges to dilute cannabis oil and essentially make a cheaper product. The CDC never confirmed whether diacetyl, the flavoring chemical, was related. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Still, the fear of popcorn lung and the amount of teenagers getting sick contributed to a nationwide crackdown on flavored vapes, whether or not they contained diacetyl. At the time, Juul was the biggest e-cigarette company. They sold different flavor pods, like mango, crème brûlée, and berry, which were all interchangeable and worked with a rechargeable battery. In 2020, the FDA banned most flavored cartridges, like Juul pods. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A targeted ban on the fruit-flavored e-cigarette cartridges, including mint, most popular with teens. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And a recent Supreme Court decision sided with the FDA over its flavored vape ban. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 4: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a unanimous ruling, the Supreme Court has given the FDA victory in its ability to regulate e-cigarettes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I confess that I was once a Juul kid. Frankly, the flavor ban made getting ahold of my beloved mango flavored nicotine so inconvenient that I stopped vaping entirely. But that flavor ban did not apply to disposable vapes. And in the years since, an entire unregulated gray market opened up, offering more dessert flavors than Juul ever carried. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So to break this down, we’re going to hear from someone with expertise in both public health and the environment. Dr. Yogi Hale Hendlin. He’s an environmental philosopher who currently teaches at Erasmus University, Rotterdam. But when he was a researcher at UC San Francisco during the height of the vape illness crisis, he very closely studied vaping and nicotine habits. And that included keeping tabs on how people were getting rid of their vapes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The FDA banned flavors for refillable, reusable vapes, but not for disposable ones. Because at the time they weren’t a thing really. Juul was the thing. They were 70% of the market for a while. You can hold them accountable at least. But when you get this disposable vape market taking this loophole and exploiting it as much as they can for the thousands and thousands of flavors. Guess which market is most interested in flavors, it’s not 80-year-old smokers looking to quit. It’s kids and young adults, and the industry knows this. The FDA has had years to close this loophole, to do something about it, because it’s really all about flavors. So flavors is driving the disposable vapes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For a while, it seemed like smoking was really falling out of popularity. I mean, cigarettes were really out, at least in the United States. But now it seems like vaping is more popular. What impact is this having on the environment? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we look at these devices, they’re not being recycled, they’re not being built for long time use, but to last as long as necessary for a disposable vape and then thrown out. And that’s accumulating in our dumps, in our incinerators. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A 2023 report commissioned by the United Nations found that 844 million vapes are thrown away every year. That is enough lithium to make batteries for 5,000 electric cars. Lithium is already a finite resource and mining it involves significant water consumption and deforestation. Even though lithium itself isn’t renewable, batteries that contain it can be rechargeable or can be repurposed. But single-use vapes aren’t always meant to be taken apart or recycled, so these lithium batteries are usually just discarded. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this is really quite alarming that we’re allocating our resources towards continued addiction by other means, and at the same time, junking the planet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. Can you talk about why disposables are so popular, whether for e-cigarettes or even for weed vapes? Which, weed vape cartridges aren’t banned the same way that a mango Juul pod is, but people do gravitate toward disposables anyway. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right now, they’re making them so cheap. We’re not reflecting the true cost of these items in our economy. We are basically subsidizing the waste at the end of life. There’s no extended producer responsibility where the manufacturer has to be responsible for it. There is no brand loyalty where you have to make sure that your device works properly for a certain amount of time. Right now, it is really a race to the bottom in terms of how much can you pack into this single thing, then you throw away. It makes it much easier for students who they can flush it down the toilet if it’s about to get confiscated, which unfortunately happens way too much. And it’s something that they can pass around. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are you familiar with those very advanced, like vapes with screens on them that can connect to your smartphone? They have games, some of them have step trackers. Have you seen these? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely. They are the logical progression of tracking multiple addictions all on one device. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. And what is astonishing to me is that, yeah, these aren’t refillable. You’re not going to buy like, you know, nicotine juice at a vape shop and refill it. You are just going to use it and then get rid of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, there’s no way to even refill it if you’d want to. You know, you’d probably like break the thing. But these things have LED screens. They have like, you know, they’re like basically old school game boys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, can you speak about like how this trend of super advanced gamified vapes exacerbates the waste issue? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m just gonna take a step back to the problem of disposables, right? So, before you would finish your juice and you’d get a refill and you do that with the same device for a year or two or three. But now you have like this whole unit, this thing that has the battery, that has now these screens, but all this circuitry too, the heating component, and you’re throwing that all away as soon as the juice is gone. Sometimes they integrate with your smartphone, but they also have like GPS tracking, social media notifications, like you said, fitness tracking and built-in games. So it’s like increasing the association of entertainment and sort of the practicality and weaves in like seamlessly with the rest of your life. And I think that this sort of integration is the dream of any product manufacturer. But when you do it with something that’s so addictive and isn’t good for you, that this raises a host of moral problems and societal ones. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I also wanted to clarify the difference between what goes into a disposable vape and what goes in to a rechargeable vape battery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obviously with a 10,000-hit, non-rechargeable, disposable vape, you need a bigger battery to compensate for all of those hits, right, to get the heating coil to work. So you’re actually using a bigger in a disposable than you would in your standard rechargeable like a Juul, but you’re only using the battery once. Rather than renewing it, like, you know, 100 or 1,000 times, you’re using that battery once. None of these are really being made in the US anyhow, so there’s also questions about safety for health, safety for the environment, and yeah, it’s a Wild West right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happens when a vape is, you know, dropped in the environment? Like what happens to the environment, how does it break down? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, the lithium batteries, oftentimes in dumpsters, you get dumpster fires if the thing gets impacted. Chemical fire is not so easy to put out either. Sometimes you just have to let it burn out. What happens when it’s on the curb, ultimately, it probably goes into our storm drains and probably leaches a lot of particulate matter, heavy metals into our water stream that goes out to the ocean ultimately. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh great, so we’re turning the ocean into a giant like vape juice container. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Totally with the lithium ion batteries and all the like soldering components that are usually made with mercury it’s no bueno \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to regulate the disposable vape market is like playing a game of whack-a-mole. Nearly all of them are manufactured in China, which ironically also bans flavored e-cigarettes. But it doesn’t ban the export of vapes, which is how the U.S. Became flooded with cotton candy-flavored disposables after 2020. There’s really nothing stopping retailers from selling them. The FDA keeps trying to crack down on them, but new companies pop up and find more loopholes. That also means that trash is piling up. So if it isn’t the FDA, is anyone regulating the disposal of these things? We’ll talk about that after the break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">California has some of the strictest e-waste laws in the country, but when it comes to nicotine vapes, disposal guidelines are fuzzy. New tab, California vape laws. So in California, it’s actually illegal to throw away a lot of electronics from old computers to TVs to even weed pens. They have to be disposed of at special facilities. As of last year, cannabis companies aren’t allowed to market their vapes as disposable. And a lot dispensaries have started taking back used vapes to safely get rid of them. There is a whole cottage industry of cannabis waste companies that collect used vaped from dispensary. Then, they separate the batteries and cartridges to recycle them. Not all of it is recyclable and it’s not a perfect system, but it’s a start. This same system doesn’t really exist for those disposable flavored nicotine vapes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the major conundrums that keeps these things from being more recyclable than they are currently is that vapes are currently treated as both hazardous waste because of the nicotine and electronic waste, right? So you basically have this thing that you can’t just put in electronic waste and deal with it because it has nicotine. And so you can really have a circular economy with the way that the laws are currently set up. Circular economy is an economy where the products that you’re using are made to be disassembled, refurbished, reassembled and re-appropriated into new products with minimum energy use, minimum waste. In California, I believe that our laws are still preventing us from fully being able to recycle these things. Currently they’re not made to spec so that we can all say, okay, so this is how you take it apart and easily get the valuable metals, take the battery out. They’re not modular. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. I mean, I didn’t know about the vape disposal law until I started reporting on this story, and a lot of people I’ve talked to also just did not know about this law. As a public health expert, is there anything California should be doing to get the message out about vape recycling? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We need to make it easy as pie. And this is how we do it. You put the deposit on the vape. You say, hey, you wanna buy a vape? Great, here is $5 deposit that you pay when you buy it. When you deposit your vape to be recycled, you get your five bucks back. And everybody, especially those who are in need of money, especially those were young, are going to properly deal with their vape. It’s called the deposit return system. It’s been used for milk bottles for over a century. It’s also in California on our computers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So California lawmakers also introduced a bill that wants to ban disposable vapes entirely. Some are concerned that banning disposable vaping entirely will push people to buy it from the black market instead. What do you think of this? Is this just fear-mongering from the big vaping industry? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, it is. I mean, we’ve heard for a long time from the tobacco industry that, you know, if you tax cigarettes, the black market will be the place where people get their cigarettes. Most kids are not getting their things from the black market. So it’s an idea of proportionality. It’s not that those arguments are absolutely incorrect, it’s just that they overplay their hand. If we want to protect kids and young adults from these devices, if we want to get rid of the environmental harms, which are so considerable, of single-use vapes, then all you have to do is ban single- use vapes and then they’re not going to become the cool thing anymore. That’s not what people will be using. And the overton window will shift and consumer preferences will change. And so the black market issue for me is sort of a non-starter if you think it logically all the way through. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. I mean, again, going back to my 21 year old little Juul addicted brain, I stopped dueling because it became inconvenient to buy Juuls. Like, is it that simple, really? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It really is that simple. If we make access a little bit more difficult, and a deposit is a great way to do that for an addictive drug that harms the environment, you can easily put a deposit on it and it makes it a little less accessible for kids. And it also makes sure that people who do use these devices, that they return them where they’re supposed to go. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was a recent study showing that somewhere between 70 and 80 percent all vapes are improperly disposed of. Where are they going? They’re going in our waterways. I have a whole collection that I found on the streets of San Francisco. Not that people are always just discarding them, but people also lose them. They fall out of backpacks. So there’s a lot of carelessness because they’re so cheap and disposable and because there’s no accountability. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If this ban passes, will moving to rechargeable vapes actually do anything for the environment, or will people just keep treating their rechargeable vape like they’re disposable and keep losing them and keep easily tossing them without actually recycling them, just paying more for it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obviously, just moving to reusable versus disposable is not going to solve the whole issue. I think we still need to deposit because there’s still going to be an end of life issue. If we want to make sure that we get those in the proper place, we also need accessibility. We need it to make it easy for people like you go to your supermarket and there’s a bin and you go the grocer and you give your device, you get your five bucks back and it’s over. So we need to integrate it into our recycling infrastructure. Yeah, there’s going to be a lag time. Just as every generation has to learn new technologies, people are going to have to get used to moving from disposable to non-disposable, just as they also did move from reusable to disposable. That was also a learning curve. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With the current administration, the likelihood of further federal regulation on disposable vapes is unclear. Trump has promised to, quote, save vaping, end quote. And during the 2024 campaign, Business Insider reported that some conservative circles have embraced nicotine consumption as masculine and contrarian. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Look, we can regulate vapes until we’re blue in the face, but to meaningfully reduce vape waste, we need a culture-wide shift in how we consume tech products. The current state of vape prohibition hasn’t stopped people from buying flavored vapes or curbed e-waste. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why some DIY enthusiasts are actually taking it upon themselves to prove that disposable vapes can be recycled. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s do one more tab, the circular economy and the right to repair. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last month, this YouTuber who goes by NekoMichi went super viral after someone dumped a single-use vape on their doorstep. Instead of tossing it, NekoMichi broke open the plastic casing, pried the lithium battery out, and wired it to an old iPod Touch. They actually managed to power the iPod using the vape battery. NekoMichi is one of many DIYers who salvage batteries and other parts from so-called disposable vapes and repurpose them for power banks, gaming controllers, and other small devices. One person on the DIY electronics subreddit even built an e-bike battery out of 130 disposable vapes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That is a great reuse of these batteries that otherwise would just end up in our landfills or incinerated. At the same time, you can’t expect your average vaper to know how to use Arduino chips and be able to do this. I think it’s a great proof of concept, right? It shows these things are totally reusable. Like it’s insane that we’re just throwing them out after, you know, a single run. We also have to be aware however, that because the batteries are not made to last, that there are lots of possible hazards that could come from that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like Yogi pointed out, DIY recycling is not exactly going to solve a massive systemic issue. Taking apart and then repurposing vape components is extremely labor-intensive, requires highly technical skills, and may cause a fire that’s nearly impossible to put out. But what is inching us closer to building the circular economy that Yogi was talking about earlier is the Right to Repair movement. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Under Right to Repair laws, now in place in five states, if you buy a new electronic device, the company that sold you that device has to sell the repair manuals and spare parts to fix it if it breaks, instead of forcing you to buy a whole new one. In addition to taking back used cartridges and batteries for recycling, some cannabis vape companies also sell replacement parts and offer repair services. This might be a way forward for more sustainable e-cigarettes too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t want to be in disposable relationships. I like having my old cell phone that works exactly the way I like it to, and I don t have to use a month of my time figuring out the new configurations on a new one and getting them exactly how I like. I like stuff that lasts a while so that I can get cozy with it, that I get to know it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, people will always be determined to get their nicotine fix. So when addressing this e-waste issue and having that in mind, is there any sustainable way forward? Do you think? Like, is the answer just to go back to cigarettes? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, I don’t think so. But, you know, at the birth of the e-cigarette movement, there were a lot of these mods, they called them, right? So it was sort of-. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I remember the Vapelords. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, exactly, right. So build your own e-cigarette. And it really did have a lot of that maker’s sort of ethos behind it, where you could optimize, you know, the liquid, the juice, and the battery, and the heating coil, look at the right ohms, so that everything’s perfect and you can blow these amazing clouds, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I do think that we can help raise awareness of making things more sustainable in terms of reusable, number one, by taking off the market the option just to be totally mindless about it. And hopefully all of this is in tandem with raising awareness of the long-term effects of vaping as well because if people need their nicotine fix, they’re going to get it. But there are so many better ways to do so than with disposables. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so here’s what you’re supposed to do when you’re ready to throw away a vape. Don’t toss them in your regular trash or rinse them out. We don’t want those chemicals hitting municipal water systems. Treat it like getting rid of batteries. Put it aside in a cool, dry place until you can drop it off at a household hazardous waste disposal spot. You can look up your local site online, contact your waste management company, or ask at the place where you bought the vape, and maybe… Consider leaving disposable vapes behind. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I really understand that we are social animals. We are mammals that mimic each other. And so when we are in situations where it’s just easy, out of sight, out-of-mind, hey, that’s really convenient for us. But when we’re forced to understand, okay, so maybe you had to blow up a mountain to get the lithium to make that vape, maybe you have to deforest lots of land in Malawi and have people who got green leaf sickness from harvesting the tobacco leaves. And then you had to flu cure them and extract the nicotine and make that juice. And that’s how I got my thing. Like you become a lot more aware and you treat it in a more sacred way because I’m not saying that people shouldn’t do X or Y, but when we’re aware of the full ramifications of what we’re doing, the whole commodity chain, the global commodity chains that make it super simple just to press a few buttons on the internet, have this thing delivered to me, I suck on it, I throw it in the garbage can, it goes away and that’s it, that’s my entire relationship to it. That makes it all too easy for me to totally bypass the actual impacts that it’s having on people and the environment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that being said, definitely do not flush your vapes down the toilet. Let’s close these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. Our Producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts and helps edit the show. Original music and sound design by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. Mixing and mastering by Brendan Willard. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad and Alana Walker. Katie Springer is our Podcast Operations Manager. And Holly Kernan is our Chief Content Officer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Support for this program comes from Birong Hu and supporters of the KQED Studios Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you have feedback, or a topic you think we should cover, hit us up at closealltabs@kqed.org. Follow us on Instagram at Close All Tabs Pod, or drop it on Discord. We’re in the Close All tabs channel at discord.gg/KQED. And if you’re enjoying the show, give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you use. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samantha Cole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I wish this thing had like a little Tamagotchi on it so then I could like. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my god, yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samantha Cole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Care, care for my little pet and then also be vaping. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t give them ideas.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samantha Cole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I bet that exists. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, tech reporter Samatha Cole shares what happened when she tried to “vape the internet” after seeing a viral post about a disposable touchscreen vape with built-in social media. We also hear from environmental philosopher and public health researcher Yogi Hale Hendlin, who says these high-tech disposables are made possible by a legal loophole — and that tackling the e-waste crisis will take a radical rethink of our relationship with the products we consume.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC1701619724\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guests:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/author/samantha-cole/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Samantha Cole\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Reporter and Co-Founder of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">404 Media\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.eur.nl/en/people/yogi-hendlin\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yogi Hale Hendlin\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Environmental Philosopher and Assistant Professor at Erasmus University\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Further reading:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.404media.co/twitter-internet-vape-touchscreen-swype/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I Tried to Vape the Internet\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> – Samantha Cole, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">404 Media\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/vaping-ecigarettes-waste-environment-disposable-pollution-3d19dce9693ce78dd244729f524df02a\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Communities can’t recycle or trash disposable e-cigarettes. So what happens to them? \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">– Matthew Perrone, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Associated Press\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2025/01/26/vapes-flavors-china-teens-00194082\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How ‘Sour Raspberry Gummy Bear’ — and Other Chinese Vapes — Made Fools of American Lawmakers \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">– Marc Novicoff, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Politico \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://grist.org/regulation/the-right-to-repair-is-now-law-in-3-states-is-big-tech-complying/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The right to repair electronics is now law in 3 states. Is Big Tech complying? \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">– Maddie Stone, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Grist \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.materialfocus.org.uk/?press-releases=disposable-single-use-vapes-thrown-away-have-quadrupled-to-5-million-per-week\">Disposable vapes thrown away quadruples to 5M per week\u003c/a> – \u003ci>Material Focus\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Follow us on Instagram\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci data-stringify-type=\"italic\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samantha Cole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have never been a smoker, period. I have never smoked nicotine of any kind. Such a loser. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sam Cole is a tech journalist and co-founder of 404 Media, and last summer, she tried to vape the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samantha Cole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was this tweet going super viral back in July. It was a guy that was like, “no way we got Twitter on my vape.” And it was a photo of him holding a vape with Twitter on it, reading tweets on it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was exactly what it sounds like, a little flip phone-sized disposable vape, with a digital screen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samantha Cole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And everyone was freaking out about it. It became a meme format. Like, there was one where someone was putting Zillow on a vape. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In other posts, people were getting breaking news alerts on their vapes or playing games like Tetris and 2048. And Sam, being an intrepid journalist, was determined to figure out if it was real. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samantha Cole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m always looking for new ways to ingest the internet. So I was like, let me look in the comments or in the replies and see if anybody actually has it. And it turned out someone did have a link. God bless the internet. A lot of them were sold out. The other flavors were Fucking Fab — I wish I knew what Fucking Fab tasted like — Juicy Peach, obviously you can imagine. Violent Rainbow was also sold out, I’m sure it was disgusting, but Watermelon Ice was like the only one left. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sam lives in New York, but was staying in California for a few weeks. So she bought the Watermelon Ice smart vape and shipped it to her friend’s house in Los Angeles. This is relevant. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samantha Cole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was like, first of all, I can’t believe this goes through the mail. This definitely seems like something that shouldn’t between the battery and the vape juice and everything else and the electronics involved. I was like house sitting. I was, like, “I hope this doesn’t catch fire while I’m not at home.” It looks like a phone. It was, a pink, like a light pink square, kind of like a deck of cards almost. It had a touch screen that wasn’t, like, as janky as I expected a vape touch screen to be. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so the vape looked like a phone, but it didn’t really function as one. It couldn’t connect to the internet by itself. Sam actually had to download a separate app and connect it to the vape via Bluetooth, and then authorize different apps to send notifications to the vape. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samantha Cole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once you connected it to your phone, it would start getting push notifications from whatever apps that you set up to connect to the vape. So that’s where the Twitter on the vape came from. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was a calculator in case you need to do math while you’re vaping, and it also had a step tracker and a weather app and a few games, but a lot of the apps didn’t really work unless Sam’s phone was nearby. She said she couldn’t actually browse the internet on her vape, but because she was getting notifications on it, it created this cycle of getting pinged while puffing some watermelon ice and then checking her phone and then puffing again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samantha Cole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, I was very quickly like literally addicted to this thing, cause it was nicotine. I was bringing it everywhere. I was like, it was like a fun thing to show people ’cause obviously it’s like weird and kooky. I had it out like drinking and then I was vaping. I was, like, “man, this is, I need to put this away. I need you to put it in a drawer and not think about it.” And then it was just like calling me like the Green Goblin mask. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Green Goblin Mask: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">COWARD! We have a new world to conquer. Hahaha!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samantha Cole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was like, “I need a little, I need Watermelon Ice.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Sam wrote up this tongue-in-cheek blog post for 404 Media about trying to “vape the internet,” but after publishing it, she still found herself reaching for the vape. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samantha Cole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I was just like, this is like the dumbest blog I’ve ever written. It’s up there on like “the dumbest ways to get addicted to vaping” is this stunt where I’m trying to read Twitter on a vape. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s like you’re addicted to the nicotine and you’re addicted to your feed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samantha Cole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right, yeah, I was addicted to all of it at the same time, which is just so dark. Connecting like this very like neurochemical process of like being addicted to nicotine and then getting like dms on the vape and being like, “ooh who’s DMing me on twitter.” This is like such a dark path uh to go to down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sam ended up kicking the habit when she left the vape at her friend’s house in LA. She said she was scared to take it through airport security. And when she got back to New York, she resisted the temptation to buy another one. Since then, she’s managed to keep her nicotine consumption limited to the very occasional analog cigarette shared among friends. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But Sam said that her vape experience was an eye-opener in more ways than one. There was her brush with this combined nicotine and internet addiction, sure, but she’s also been thinking about another issue: just how wasteful these vapes are. Remember, they’re disposable. There’s no vape pod to swap out if you want to change flavors. You can’t refill it once it’s empty. And a lot of them aren’t even rechargeable. You can easily go through one in a few weeks or a few days if you’re really puffing. Which means that you’re constantly replacing them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samantha Cole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was a time in like New York / Bushwick, surely you recall this, but just the ground was just covered in used Juul pods. It was just everywhere. At the time, I was like, “this is an ecological disaster.” And now I think- \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was like plastic everywhere. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samantha Cole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and it’s disgusting. And like, and you know, it’s like, I guess they put them in like cigarette butts, except they don’t degrade or anything. But then this I was like, “okay, when I finish this vape, I can’t refill it?” Even though it has all this stuff in it. Like it has like the touch screen, like it has chips inside of it, it has a battery inside of obviously, lots of plastic. So I was like, “damn, there’s a lot of like engineering that goes into this thing and then it becomes disposable within like a couple of weeks?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so what exactly makes vapes an “ecological disaster,” like Sam said? Are you supposed to recycle them? And how big of a problem is this really? That’s what we’re getting into today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung:, tech journalist, and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">E-waste, or electronic waste, includes any electronic device that’s thrown away instead of recycled. It’s copper wires, semiconductors, circuit boards, LED screens, heavy metals, batteries, and more. It’s the stuff in our refrigerators and our old iPhones, and in our vapes. When these materials are dumped in landfills, they don’t really break down. And the sheer rate at which people are now buying, puffing, and then tossing disposable vapes, is rapidly adding to the e-waste crisis. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s make that our first tab. Disposable vapes and e-waste. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To explain how disposable vapes became so popular, let me take you back in time to the year 2019. This was the first ever “hot girl summer” as coined by Megan Thee Stallion and mango Juul pods were everywhere. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ty Dolla $ign: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Does she got it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a simpler time. And then, fear of popcorn lung swept the nation. Popcorn lung is the informal name for a lung condition in which the small airways in your lungs become so inflamed and scarred that breathing becomes extremely difficult. It’s from inhaling a chemical called diacetyl, which is used as a buttery flavoring in products like popcorn. It’s safe to eat, but when inhaled, it can cause permanent damage. That year, a ton of people especially teenagers, started to get really sick with mysterious lung issues. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A seemingly healthy Texas teenager suddenly unable to breathe and hospitalized with lung failure. His doctors suspect vaping was the cause. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The CDC released some new numbers today. The new numbers show more than 2,000 people now have been diagnosed with a vaping illness. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the United States, there were over 2,700 confirmed cases related to this mysterious vape illness and 68 deaths. One teenager in Canada had symptoms that aligned with popcorn lung, but all of the cases in the US involved pneumonia and other symptoms that aren’t present in popcorn lung. That pointed to another culprit. The CDC actually identified a different chemical as the probable cause of these vape-related cases: Vitamin E acetate. It was used in a lot of black market weed vape cartridges to dilute cannabis oil and essentially make a cheaper product. The CDC never confirmed whether diacetyl, the flavoring chemical, was related. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Still, the fear of popcorn lung and the amount of teenagers getting sick contributed to a nationwide crackdown on flavored vapes, whether or not they contained diacetyl. At the time, Juul was the biggest e-cigarette company. They sold different flavor pods, like mango, crème brûlée, and berry, which were all interchangeable and worked with a rechargeable battery. In 2020, the FDA banned most flavored cartridges, like Juul pods. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A targeted ban on the fruit-flavored e-cigarette cartridges, including mint, most popular with teens. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And a recent Supreme Court decision sided with the FDA over its flavored vape ban. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Anchor 4: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a unanimous ruling, the Supreme Court has given the FDA victory in its ability to regulate e-cigarettes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I confess that I was once a Juul kid. Frankly, the flavor ban made getting ahold of my beloved mango flavored nicotine so inconvenient that I stopped vaping entirely. But that flavor ban did not apply to disposable vapes. And in the years since, an entire unregulated gray market opened up, offering more dessert flavors than Juul ever carried. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So to break this down, we’re going to hear from someone with expertise in both public health and the environment. Dr. Yogi Hale Hendlin. He’s an environmental philosopher who currently teaches at Erasmus University, Rotterdam. But when he was a researcher at UC San Francisco during the height of the vape illness crisis, he very closely studied vaping and nicotine habits. And that included keeping tabs on how people were getting rid of their vapes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The FDA banned flavors for refillable, reusable vapes, but not for disposable ones. Because at the time they weren’t a thing really. Juul was the thing. They were 70% of the market for a while. You can hold them accountable at least. But when you get this disposable vape market taking this loophole and exploiting it as much as they can for the thousands and thousands of flavors. Guess which market is most interested in flavors, it’s not 80-year-old smokers looking to quit. It’s kids and young adults, and the industry knows this. The FDA has had years to close this loophole, to do something about it, because it’s really all about flavors. So flavors is driving the disposable vapes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For a while, it seemed like smoking was really falling out of popularity. I mean, cigarettes were really out, at least in the United States. But now it seems like vaping is more popular. What impact is this having on the environment? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we look at these devices, they’re not being recycled, they’re not being built for long time use, but to last as long as necessary for a disposable vape and then thrown out. And that’s accumulating in our dumps, in our incinerators. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A 2023 report commissioned by the United Nations found that 844 million vapes are thrown away every year. That is enough lithium to make batteries for 5,000 electric cars. Lithium is already a finite resource and mining it involves significant water consumption and deforestation. Even though lithium itself isn’t renewable, batteries that contain it can be rechargeable or can be repurposed. But single-use vapes aren’t always meant to be taken apart or recycled, so these lithium batteries are usually just discarded. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this is really quite alarming that we’re allocating our resources towards continued addiction by other means, and at the same time, junking the planet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. Can you talk about why disposables are so popular, whether for e-cigarettes or even for weed vapes? Which, weed vape cartridges aren’t banned the same way that a mango Juul pod is, but people do gravitate toward disposables anyway. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right now, they’re making them so cheap. We’re not reflecting the true cost of these items in our economy. We are basically subsidizing the waste at the end of life. There’s no extended producer responsibility where the manufacturer has to be responsible for it. There is no brand loyalty where you have to make sure that your device works properly for a certain amount of time. Right now, it is really a race to the bottom in terms of how much can you pack into this single thing, then you throw away. It makes it much easier for students who they can flush it down the toilet if it’s about to get confiscated, which unfortunately happens way too much. And it’s something that they can pass around. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are you familiar with those very advanced, like vapes with screens on them that can connect to your smartphone? They have games, some of them have step trackers. Have you seen these? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely. They are the logical progression of tracking multiple addictions all on one device. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. And what is astonishing to me is that, yeah, these aren’t refillable. You’re not going to buy like, you know, nicotine juice at a vape shop and refill it. You are just going to use it and then get rid of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, there’s no way to even refill it if you’d want to. You know, you’d probably like break the thing. But these things have LED screens. They have like, you know, they’re like basically old school game boys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, can you speak about like how this trend of super advanced gamified vapes exacerbates the waste issue? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m just gonna take a step back to the problem of disposables, right? So, before you would finish your juice and you’d get a refill and you do that with the same device for a year or two or three. But now you have like this whole unit, this thing that has the battery, that has now these screens, but all this circuitry too, the heating component, and you’re throwing that all away as soon as the juice is gone. Sometimes they integrate with your smartphone, but they also have like GPS tracking, social media notifications, like you said, fitness tracking and built-in games. So it’s like increasing the association of entertainment and sort of the practicality and weaves in like seamlessly with the rest of your life. And I think that this sort of integration is the dream of any product manufacturer. But when you do it with something that’s so addictive and isn’t good for you, that this raises a host of moral problems and societal ones. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I also wanted to clarify the difference between what goes into a disposable vape and what goes in to a rechargeable vape battery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obviously with a 10,000-hit, non-rechargeable, disposable vape, you need a bigger battery to compensate for all of those hits, right, to get the heating coil to work. So you’re actually using a bigger in a disposable than you would in your standard rechargeable like a Juul, but you’re only using the battery once. Rather than renewing it, like, you know, 100 or 1,000 times, you’re using that battery once. None of these are really being made in the US anyhow, so there’s also questions about safety for health, safety for the environment, and yeah, it’s a Wild West right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What happens when a vape is, you know, dropped in the environment? Like what happens to the environment, how does it break down? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, the lithium batteries, oftentimes in dumpsters, you get dumpster fires if the thing gets impacted. Chemical fire is not so easy to put out either. Sometimes you just have to let it burn out. What happens when it’s on the curb, ultimately, it probably goes into our storm drains and probably leaches a lot of particulate matter, heavy metals into our water stream that goes out to the ocean ultimately. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh great, so we’re turning the ocean into a giant like vape juice container. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Totally with the lithium ion batteries and all the like soldering components that are usually made with mercury it’s no bueno \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to regulate the disposable vape market is like playing a game of whack-a-mole. Nearly all of them are manufactured in China, which ironically also bans flavored e-cigarettes. But it doesn’t ban the export of vapes, which is how the U.S. Became flooded with cotton candy-flavored disposables after 2020. There’s really nothing stopping retailers from selling them. The FDA keeps trying to crack down on them, but new companies pop up and find more loopholes. That also means that trash is piling up. So if it isn’t the FDA, is anyone regulating the disposal of these things? We’ll talk about that after the break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">California has some of the strictest e-waste laws in the country, but when it comes to nicotine vapes, disposal guidelines are fuzzy. New tab, California vape laws. So in California, it’s actually illegal to throw away a lot of electronics from old computers to TVs to even weed pens. They have to be disposed of at special facilities. As of last year, cannabis companies aren’t allowed to market their vapes as disposable. And a lot dispensaries have started taking back used vapes to safely get rid of them. There is a whole cottage industry of cannabis waste companies that collect used vaped from dispensary. Then, they separate the batteries and cartridges to recycle them. Not all of it is recyclable and it’s not a perfect system, but it’s a start. This same system doesn’t really exist for those disposable flavored nicotine vapes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the major conundrums that keeps these things from being more recyclable than they are currently is that vapes are currently treated as both hazardous waste because of the nicotine and electronic waste, right? So you basically have this thing that you can’t just put in electronic waste and deal with it because it has nicotine. And so you can really have a circular economy with the way that the laws are currently set up. Circular economy is an economy where the products that you’re using are made to be disassembled, refurbished, reassembled and re-appropriated into new products with minimum energy use, minimum waste. In California, I believe that our laws are still preventing us from fully being able to recycle these things. Currently they’re not made to spec so that we can all say, okay, so this is how you take it apart and easily get the valuable metals, take the battery out. They’re not modular. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. I mean, I didn’t know about the vape disposal law until I started reporting on this story, and a lot of people I’ve talked to also just did not know about this law. As a public health expert, is there anything California should be doing to get the message out about vape recycling? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We need to make it easy as pie. And this is how we do it. You put the deposit on the vape. You say, hey, you wanna buy a vape? Great, here is $5 deposit that you pay when you buy it. When you deposit your vape to be recycled, you get your five bucks back. And everybody, especially those who are in need of money, especially those were young, are going to properly deal with their vape. It’s called the deposit return system. It’s been used for milk bottles for over a century. It’s also in California on our computers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So California lawmakers also introduced a bill that wants to ban disposable vapes entirely. Some are concerned that banning disposable vaping entirely will push people to buy it from the black market instead. What do you think of this? Is this just fear-mongering from the big vaping industry? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, it is. I mean, we’ve heard for a long time from the tobacco industry that, you know, if you tax cigarettes, the black market will be the place where people get their cigarettes. Most kids are not getting their things from the black market. So it’s an idea of proportionality. It’s not that those arguments are absolutely incorrect, it’s just that they overplay their hand. If we want to protect kids and young adults from these devices, if we want to get rid of the environmental harms, which are so considerable, of single-use vapes, then all you have to do is ban single- use vapes and then they’re not going to become the cool thing anymore. That’s not what people will be using. And the overton window will shift and consumer preferences will change. And so the black market issue for me is sort of a non-starter if you think it logically all the way through. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right. I mean, again, going back to my 21 year old little Juul addicted brain, I stopped dueling because it became inconvenient to buy Juuls. Like, is it that simple, really? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It really is that simple. If we make access a little bit more difficult, and a deposit is a great way to do that for an addictive drug that harms the environment, you can easily put a deposit on it and it makes it a little less accessible for kids. And it also makes sure that people who do use these devices, that they return them where they’re supposed to go. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was a recent study showing that somewhere between 70 and 80 percent all vapes are improperly disposed of. Where are they going? They’re going in our waterways. I have a whole collection that I found on the streets of San Francisco. Not that people are always just discarding them, but people also lose them. They fall out of backpacks. So there’s a lot of carelessness because they’re so cheap and disposable and because there’s no accountability. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If this ban passes, will moving to rechargeable vapes actually do anything for the environment, or will people just keep treating their rechargeable vape like they’re disposable and keep losing them and keep easily tossing them without actually recycling them, just paying more for it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obviously, just moving to reusable versus disposable is not going to solve the whole issue. I think we still need to deposit because there’s still going to be an end of life issue. If we want to make sure that we get those in the proper place, we also need accessibility. We need it to make it easy for people like you go to your supermarket and there’s a bin and you go the grocer and you give your device, you get your five bucks back and it’s over. So we need to integrate it into our recycling infrastructure. Yeah, there’s going to be a lag time. Just as every generation has to learn new technologies, people are going to have to get used to moving from disposable to non-disposable, just as they also did move from reusable to disposable. That was also a learning curve. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With the current administration, the likelihood of further federal regulation on disposable vapes is unclear. Trump has promised to, quote, save vaping, end quote. And during the 2024 campaign, Business Insider reported that some conservative circles have embraced nicotine consumption as masculine and contrarian. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Look, we can regulate vapes until we’re blue in the face, but to meaningfully reduce vape waste, we need a culture-wide shift in how we consume tech products. The current state of vape prohibition hasn’t stopped people from buying flavored vapes or curbed e-waste. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why some DIY enthusiasts are actually taking it upon themselves to prove that disposable vapes can be recycled. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s do one more tab, the circular economy and the right to repair. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last month, this YouTuber who goes by NekoMichi went super viral after someone dumped a single-use vape on their doorstep. Instead of tossing it, NekoMichi broke open the plastic casing, pried the lithium battery out, and wired it to an old iPod Touch. They actually managed to power the iPod using the vape battery. NekoMichi is one of many DIYers who salvage batteries and other parts from so-called disposable vapes and repurpose them for power banks, gaming controllers, and other small devices. One person on the DIY electronics subreddit even built an e-bike battery out of 130 disposable vapes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That is a great reuse of these batteries that otherwise would just end up in our landfills or incinerated. At the same time, you can’t expect your average vaper to know how to use Arduino chips and be able to do this. I think it’s a great proof of concept, right? It shows these things are totally reusable. Like it’s insane that we’re just throwing them out after, you know, a single run. We also have to be aware however, that because the batteries are not made to last, that there are lots of possible hazards that could come from that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like Yogi pointed out, DIY recycling is not exactly going to solve a massive systemic issue. Taking apart and then repurposing vape components is extremely labor-intensive, requires highly technical skills, and may cause a fire that’s nearly impossible to put out. But what is inching us closer to building the circular economy that Yogi was talking about earlier is the Right to Repair movement. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Under Right to Repair laws, now in place in five states, if you buy a new electronic device, the company that sold you that device has to sell the repair manuals and spare parts to fix it if it breaks, instead of forcing you to buy a whole new one. In addition to taking back used cartridges and batteries for recycling, some cannabis vape companies also sell replacement parts and offer repair services. This might be a way forward for more sustainable e-cigarettes too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t want to be in disposable relationships. I like having my old cell phone that works exactly the way I like it to, and I don t have to use a month of my time figuring out the new configurations on a new one and getting them exactly how I like. I like stuff that lasts a while so that I can get cozy with it, that I get to know it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, people will always be determined to get their nicotine fix. So when addressing this e-waste issue and having that in mind, is there any sustainable way forward? Do you think? Like, is the answer just to go back to cigarettes? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, I don’t think so. But, you know, at the birth of the e-cigarette movement, there were a lot of these mods, they called them, right? So it was sort of-. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I remember the Vapelords. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, exactly, right. So build your own e-cigarette. And it really did have a lot of that maker’s sort of ethos behind it, where you could optimize, you know, the liquid, the juice, and the battery, and the heating coil, look at the right ohms, so that everything’s perfect and you can blow these amazing clouds, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I do think that we can help raise awareness of making things more sustainable in terms of reusable, number one, by taking off the market the option just to be totally mindless about it. And hopefully all of this is in tandem with raising awareness of the long-term effects of vaping as well because if people need their nicotine fix, they’re going to get it. But there are so many better ways to do so than with disposables. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, so here’s what you’re supposed to do when you’re ready to throw away a vape. Don’t toss them in your regular trash or rinse them out. We don’t want those chemicals hitting municipal water systems. Treat it like getting rid of batteries. Put it aside in a cool, dry place until you can drop it off at a household hazardous waste disposal spot. You can look up your local site online, contact your waste management company, or ask at the place where you bought the vape, and maybe… Consider leaving disposable vapes behind. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yogi Hale Hendlin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I really understand that we are social animals. We are mammals that mimic each other. And so when we are in situations where it’s just easy, out of sight, out-of-mind, hey, that’s really convenient for us. But when we’re forced to understand, okay, so maybe you had to blow up a mountain to get the lithium to make that vape, maybe you have to deforest lots of land in Malawi and have people who got green leaf sickness from harvesting the tobacco leaves. And then you had to flu cure them and extract the nicotine and make that juice. And that’s how I got my thing. Like you become a lot more aware and you treat it in a more sacred way because I’m not saying that people shouldn’t do X or Y, but when we’re aware of the full ramifications of what we’re doing, the whole commodity chain, the global commodity chains that make it super simple just to press a few buttons on the internet, have this thing delivered to me, I suck on it, I throw it in the garbage can, it goes away and that’s it, that’s my entire relationship to it. That makes it all too easy for me to totally bypass the actual impacts that it’s having on people and the environment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that being said, definitely do not flush your vapes down the toilet. Let’s close these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. Our Producer is Maya Cueva. Chris Egusa is our Senior Editor. Jen Chien is KQED’s Director of Podcasts and helps edit the show. Original music and sound design by Chris Egusa. Additional music by APM. Mixing and mastering by Brendan Willard. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad and Alana Walker. Katie Springer is our Podcast Operations Manager. And Holly Kernan is our Chief Content Officer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Support for this program comes from Birong Hu and supporters of the KQED Studios Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. Keyboard sounds were recorded on my purple and pink dust silver K84 wired mechanical keyboard with Gateron red switches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you have feedback, or a topic you think we should cover, hit us up at closealltabs@kqed.org. Follow us on Instagram at Close All Tabs Pod, or drop it on Discord. We’re in the Close All tabs channel at discord.gg/KQED. And if you’re enjoying the show, give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you use. Thanks for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samantha Cole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I wish this thing had like a little Tamagotchi on it so then I could like. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my god, yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samantha Cole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Care, care for my little pet and then also be vaping. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t give them ideas.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Samantha Cole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I bet that exists. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>In 2012, Facebook announced a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/61601/facebook-to-buy-instagram-for-1-billion\">$1 billion deal\u003c/a> to buy Instagram, and the Federal Trade Commission approved. Two years later, Facebook \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/127028/facebooks-purchase-of-whatsapp-is-about-reaching-its-next-5-billion-users\">paid $19 billion\u003c/a> to take over WhatsApp, and once again, antitrust regulators signed off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But that wasn’t the end of the story for federal regulators, who observed the fallout from those corporate deals, investigated and brought a case against the Menlo-Park based \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/mark-zuckerberg\">social media juggernaut\u003c/a>. Their primary argument: that Meta used those acquisitions to build and maintain a monopoly in the ad surveillance economy that the social media giant helped create.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At stake is Meta’s $1.4 trillion advertising business and the prospect of a corporate breakup the likes of which has not been seen since AT&T’s telephone monopoly was forced to split apart more than 40 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In his opening statement in court on Monday, FTC attorney Daniel Matheson said Meta used its size to crush rivals. “They decided that competition was too hard, and it would be easier to buy out their rivals rather than compete with them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meta’s lawyer, Mark Hansen, countered that the quality of Meta’s apps “has improved on every objective measure,” adding that people use more of something when it becomes better. “That’s economics 101.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11951943\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11951943\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/060123-Meta-Facebook-Instagram-AP-JC-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"The Meta booth at the Game Developers Conference 2023 in San Francisco.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/060123-Meta-Facebook-Instagram-AP-JC-KQED.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/060123-Meta-Facebook-Instagram-AP-JC-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/060123-Meta-Facebook-Instagram-AP-JC-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/060123-Meta-Facebook-Instagram-AP-JC-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/060123-Meta-Facebook-Instagram-AP-JC-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Despite heavy lobbying by Mark Zuckerberg to avoid a trial, the Federal Trade Commission’s case against Meta began Monday, alleging the company violated competition laws with its acquisitions of Instagram and WhatsApp. \u003ccite>(Jeff Chiu/AP Photo)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Meta does not charge consumers money for its services, so there are no consumer price hikes to demonstrate what many consider direct evidence of monopoly power. However, the FTC will attempt to demonstrate that market power allowed Meta to diminish the quality of its product for consumers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Cory Doctorow famously coined a term for this pattern, which he calls “\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-platforms-cory-doctorow/\">enshittification\u003c/a>.” In short, Doctorow argues that tech platforms start with a compellingly enjoyable service to build their consumer base and achieve scale. But over time, platforms inevitably try to maximize profits by stuffing their products with as much advertising as possible.[aside postID=news_12031294 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/03/GettyImages-1327685501-1020x720.jpg']By that point, Doctorow explains, that both users and advertisers are locked in to continued use of the platform; advertisers, because they value the market share the company dominates; consumers, because it’s difficult to replicate their social network elsewhere and they’ve posted a lot of personal history that can’t easily be shifted elsewhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Imagine Meta is a castle, and they want to maintain their kingdom, so they build this moat around their monopoly, so no one else can access their users or take them away,” said Jen Howard, who was chief of staff at the FTC under former chair Lina Khan. Before that, Howard was at the agency when the case was opened under Joe Simons, the FTC chair during the first Trump Administration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the transition from desktop to mobile, Facebook was caught “flat-footed,” Howard argues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They didn’t have the technical talent to make Facebook a popular mobile app,” Howard said. “They panicked, absolutely panicked, and they decided to buy their way to the top.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meta, for its part, argues the FTC’s case “ignores how the market actually works and chases a theory that doesn’t hold up in the real world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jennifer Newstead, Meta’s chief legal officer, posting on Sunday, wrote that the company has invested vast technical resources into making Instagram and WhatsApp better products, and “in reality, more time is spent on TikTok and YouTube than on either Facebook or Instagram — if you only add TikTok and YouTube into the FTC’s social media market definition, Meta has <30% market share.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://twitter.com/TrumpDailyPosts/status/1864361511776395438?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There has been speculation that President Trump could be convinced to abandon the trial and force federal regulators to settle with Meta after CEO Mark Zuckerberg donated $1 million to Trump’s inaugural committee. Zuckerberg \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/01/29/nx-s1-5279570/meta-trump-settlement-facebook-instagram-suspensions\">agreed to pay\u003c/a> Trump $25 million to settle a suit Trump filed for being suspended from Facebook and Instagram in the wake of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12020383/looking-back-on-january-6-insurrection-four-years-later\">Jan. 6\u003c/a>. Zuckerberg ended fact-checking on Facebook and Instagram and dialed back diversity, equity and inclusion programs. The CEO has also repeatedly visited Trump’s White House and the Mar-a-Lago club in recent months.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But so far, there’s no indication that Trump is responding to the lobbying. And not just for Meta, but for Google, which \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/google-antitrust-search-engine-verdict-apple-319a61f20fb11510097845a30abaefd8\">also faces an antitrust case\u003c/a> launched during Trump’s first term. Next week, in the same courthouse where Meta’s case is happening, Alphabet’s Google will argue why it shouldn’t face a breakup after a judge found it illegally monopolized the online search market.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Howard calls the case a “reckoning” for Meta — and a sign the president meant what he posted when he announced Gail Slater his pick to head the Department of Justice, writing on X: “Big Tech has run wild for years, stifling competition in our most innovative sector and, as we all know, using its market power to crack down on the rights of so many Americans, as well as those of Little Tech! I was proud to fight these abuses in my First Term, and our Department of Justice’s antitrust team will continue that work.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re not going to be competitive if we allow these big, bloated bureaucratic businesses to continue to stifle the next generation of innovation,” Howard told KQED. “Certainly, it’s not going to come from here if we continue to protect them by allowing them to do this sort of moating of monopolies. China’s going to come, and come with something better.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On that score, Howard noted, antitrust advocates on both sides of the political divide have something they can agree on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>In 2012, Facebook announced a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/61601/facebook-to-buy-instagram-for-1-billion\">$1 billion deal\u003c/a> to buy Instagram, and the Federal Trade Commission approved. Two years later, Facebook \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/127028/facebooks-purchase-of-whatsapp-is-about-reaching-its-next-5-billion-users\">paid $19 billion\u003c/a> to take over WhatsApp, and once again, antitrust regulators signed off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But that wasn’t the end of the story for federal regulators, who observed the fallout from those corporate deals, investigated and brought a case against the Menlo-Park based \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/mark-zuckerberg\">social media juggernaut\u003c/a>. Their primary argument: that Meta used those acquisitions to build and maintain a monopoly in the ad surveillance economy that the social media giant helped create.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At stake is Meta’s $1.4 trillion advertising business and the prospect of a corporate breakup the likes of which has not been seen since AT&T’s telephone monopoly was forced to split apart more than 40 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In his opening statement in court on Monday, FTC attorney Daniel Matheson said Meta used its size to crush rivals. “They decided that competition was too hard, and it would be easier to buy out their rivals rather than compete with them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meta’s lawyer, Mark Hansen, countered that the quality of Meta’s apps “has improved on every objective measure,” adding that people use more of something when it becomes better. “That’s economics 101.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11951943\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11951943\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/060123-Meta-Facebook-Instagram-AP-JC-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"The Meta booth at the Game Developers Conference 2023 in San Francisco.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/060123-Meta-Facebook-Instagram-AP-JC-KQED.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/060123-Meta-Facebook-Instagram-AP-JC-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/060123-Meta-Facebook-Instagram-AP-JC-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/060123-Meta-Facebook-Instagram-AP-JC-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/060123-Meta-Facebook-Instagram-AP-JC-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Despite heavy lobbying by Mark Zuckerberg to avoid a trial, the Federal Trade Commission’s case against Meta began Monday, alleging the company violated competition laws with its acquisitions of Instagram and WhatsApp. \u003ccite>(Jeff Chiu/AP Photo)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Meta does not charge consumers money for its services, so there are no consumer price hikes to demonstrate what many consider direct evidence of monopoly power. However, the FTC will attempt to demonstrate that market power allowed Meta to diminish the quality of its product for consumers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Cory Doctorow famously coined a term for this pattern, which he calls “\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-platforms-cory-doctorow/\">enshittification\u003c/a>.” In short, Doctorow argues that tech platforms start with a compellingly enjoyable service to build their consumer base and achieve scale. But over time, platforms inevitably try to maximize profits by stuffing their products with as much advertising as possible.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>By that point, Doctorow explains, that both users and advertisers are locked in to continued use of the platform; advertisers, because they value the market share the company dominates; consumers, because it’s difficult to replicate their social network elsewhere and they’ve posted a lot of personal history that can’t easily be shifted elsewhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Imagine Meta is a castle, and they want to maintain their kingdom, so they build this moat around their monopoly, so no one else can access their users or take them away,” said Jen Howard, who was chief of staff at the FTC under former chair Lina Khan. Before that, Howard was at the agency when the case was opened under Joe Simons, the FTC chair during the first Trump Administration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the transition from desktop to mobile, Facebook was caught “flat-footed,” Howard argues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They didn’t have the technical talent to make Facebook a popular mobile app,” Howard said. “They panicked, absolutely panicked, and they decided to buy their way to the top.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meta, for its part, argues the FTC’s case “ignores how the market actually works and chases a theory that doesn’t hold up in the real world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jennifer Newstead, Meta’s chief legal officer, posting on Sunday, wrote that the company has invested vast technical resources into making Instagram and WhatsApp better products, and “in reality, more time is spent on TikTok and YouTube than on either Facebook or Instagram — if you only add TikTok and YouTube into the FTC’s social media market definition, Meta has <30% market share.”\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>There has been speculation that President Trump could be convinced to abandon the trial and force federal regulators to settle with Meta after CEO Mark Zuckerberg donated $1 million to Trump’s inaugural committee. Zuckerberg \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/01/29/nx-s1-5279570/meta-trump-settlement-facebook-instagram-suspensions\">agreed to pay\u003c/a> Trump $25 million to settle a suit Trump filed for being suspended from Facebook and Instagram in the wake of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12020383/looking-back-on-january-6-insurrection-four-years-later\">Jan. 6\u003c/a>. Zuckerberg ended fact-checking on Facebook and Instagram and dialed back diversity, equity and inclusion programs. The CEO has also repeatedly visited Trump’s White House and the Mar-a-Lago club in recent months.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But so far, there’s no indication that Trump is responding to the lobbying. And not just for Meta, but for Google, which \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/google-antitrust-search-engine-verdict-apple-319a61f20fb11510097845a30abaefd8\">also faces an antitrust case\u003c/a> launched during Trump’s first term. Next week, in the same courthouse where Meta’s case is happening, Alphabet’s Google will argue why it shouldn’t face a breakup after a judge found it illegally monopolized the online search market.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Howard calls the case a “reckoning” for Meta — and a sign the president meant what he posted when he announced Gail Slater his pick to head the Department of Justice, writing on X: “Big Tech has run wild for years, stifling competition in our most innovative sector and, as we all know, using its market power to crack down on the rights of so many Americans, as well as those of Little Tech! I was proud to fight these abuses in my First Term, and our Department of Justice’s antitrust team will continue that work.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re not going to be competitive if we allow these big, bloated bureaucratic businesses to continue to stifle the next generation of innovation,” Howard told KQED. “Certainly, it’s not going to come from here if we continue to protect them by allowing them to do this sort of moating of monopolies. China’s going to come, and come with something better.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On that score, Howard noted, antitrust advocates on both sides of the political divide have something they can agree on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
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"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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"tagline": "Art is where you find it",
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"soldout": {
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"tagline": "A new future for housing",
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"info": "",
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"tech-nation": {
"id": "tech-nation",
"title": "Tech Nation Radio Podcast",
"info": "Tech Nation is a weekly public radio program, hosted by Dr. Moira Gunn. Founded in 1993, it has grown from a simple interview show to a multi-faceted production, featuring conversations with noted technology and science leaders, and a weekly science and technology-related commentary.",
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"ted-radio-hour": {
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"title": "TED Radio Hour",
"info": "The TED Radio Hour is a journey through fascinating ideas, astonishing inventions, fresh approaches to old problems, and new ways to think and create.",
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