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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reporting on prisons from the outside is often difficult; it’s a closed and secretive world. But there is also important reporting being done by people who are inside prison, which comes with dangers of its own. Sukey and Julie sit down with two formerly incarcerated journalists, Rahsaan Thomas and Jesse Vasquez, to talk about the challenges and opportunities of prison reporting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC6919454101\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rahsaan Thomas is the Executive Director of \u003ca href=\"https://www.empowermentave.org/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Empowerment Avenue\u003c/a> and a producer at \u003ca href=\"https://www.earhustlesq.com/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Ear Hustle\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jesse Vasquez is the Executive Director of the \u003ca href=\"https://polleninitiative.org/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Pollen Initiative\u003c/a> and former Editor-in-Chief of the \u003ca href=\"https://sanquentinnews.com/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">San Quentin News\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mental health resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you are currently in crisis, you can dial 988 [U.S.] to reach the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SAMHSA National Help Line\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://988lifeline.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.nami.org/help\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness) Helpline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.hhs.gov/programs/prevention-and-wellness/mental-health-substance-abuse/index.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">US Health and Human Services\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://warmline.org/warmdir.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Warmline Directory\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://journalism.berkeley.edu/programs/mj/investigative-reporting/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Investigative Reporting Program\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> at UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism was a key partner in making Season 2 of On Our Watch.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The records obtained for this project are part of the\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://projects.scpr.org/california-reporting-project/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> California Reporting Project\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a coalition of news organizations in California. If you have tips or feedback about this series please reach out to us at \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"mailto:onourwatch@kqed.org\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">onourwatch@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before we start. Just wanted to give you a heads up that this episode references acts of violence. If you or someone you know needs support. We’ve got links to resources in the episode description. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi and welcome back to another bonus episode of On Our Watch I’m \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sukey Lewis\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Throughout reporting this season, my co-reporter \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julie Small\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and I knocked on a lot of closed doors, pored over hundreds of pages of documents that were often redacted beyond recognition, and our best hope of contacting a source in prison was usually to send a letter via snail mail and hope they responded. In general, reporting on prisons can be really difficult, finding sources and navigating the politics of a closed world. But in recent years, there’s also been a revival of the prison journalism movement. Newspapers and podcasts created from inside that world by incarcerated reporters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Julie and I talk to two journalists who started their careers inside prison. Rahsaan “New York” Thomas, who consulted on this season of On Our Watch, is also a producer for the Ear Hustle podcast and started a nonprofit called Empowerment Avenue that supports incarcerated writers and artists. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> was editor in chief of the San Quentin News newspaper and now directs a nonprofit called the Pollen Initiative, which provides multimedia training to other people in California prisons. Here’s our conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you, everybody, for coming here today to the various places that we are joining, joining each other from. Rahsaan, how did you become a journalist? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I became a journalist by accident and half way because of a scam. I arrived in the San Quentin prison yard after working on this book for like, maybe seven, eight, almost ten years. And, but the book was mostly handwritten and there was no way to really edit it. Like when you want to edit it, you have to rewrite it or retype it and it’s like… And so I wanted to work for San Quentin News because they had computers and I wanted to type my book and set a computer so I can get somebody to help me edit it and hopefully publish it and get it on the New York Times bestseller list and change the world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so I went in there with that mindset. But I started fell in love with journalism. They made me the, sports reporter. And at first I was like, I want to write about bigger and better issues. Sports just seems so limited. But then I realized that. There was some social justice things happening, some really beautiful human interest things happening on the basketball court because it was uniting worlds that never meet normally, like billionaires and millionaires were playing basketball with kids from the streets of Los Angeles. And so something beautiful happening. And I fell in love with writing. And I found out at the same time that my book was horrible. Nobody ever deserves to see it. I need to rewrite it anyway. And but I got so caught up with journalism I never got to finish the book. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I feel you, I’m a I’m a failed novelist and poet. So journalism. Same save the universe from my creative writing as well. Jesse, what was your journey to journalism? How did you become involved in this world? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think my journey started with kind of like Rahsaan as an accident. I was more into daily journaling, and I was a pretty good writer in my academic, pursuits. Then I decided to transfer to San Quentin because I saw the San Quentin News join the Journalism Guild. And I fell in love with just telling people stories and meeting people in the yard and seeing what they were up to and making a difference in our community inside. I think journalism for me was what gave me purpose. In spite of the multiple life sentences that I was serving. It gave me an outlet to share people’s stories and make a difference while I was incarcerated. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And now you’re an editor. Like, how how was that transition and what’s the difference in in your mind if there is one between the work that you did as a journalist and as an editor? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the huge difference is I have to think more in terms of management and structure, like it’s… Before it was just, you know, I want to tell impactful stories, powerful stories, you know, human interest stories. And then I realized that there’s, you know, a ripple effect to what we say, how we say it and to who we say it, depending on the platform that we’re using. And editing and overseeing the management of incarcerated produced content for, like an institutional publication like San Quentin News can be a bit tricky just because, you know, there’s certain things that we want to be mindful of when it comes to what we publish and produce. So it’s very it’s a very political position. I never understood that being an editor was very political, and you have to be very mindful of, you know, how you approach a subject, you know, not just because of the liabilities, you know, but also because we have a certain responsibility to the community that we represent. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. The San Quentin News is such a unique publication. I myself am an alum of that program. When I was in graduate school at UC Berkeley Graduate School of Journalism, I got to go in with my professor, Bill Drummond, and work with some of the incarcerated journalists. And for me, you know, as a baby reporter myself, just figuring out the world of journalism, it was so inspiring to work with incarcerated reporters and also just to learn more about the this world of prison, prison reporting and criminal justice and kind of got me started heading down deeper and deeper into gaining expertise in the field and becoming a criminal justice reporter myself. What about you, Julie? Like what- what drew you to prison reporting in the first place? And, you know, is there a kind of seminal story for you about it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I, I like to say that it picked me. I didn’t pick prisons, picked prisons, picked me because my first day on the job in Sacramento was the day the then Governor Schwarzenegger declared a state of emergency in the prisons for overcrowding. The first major story I did was, you know, going into San Quentin, actually, with the federal receiver who’d been appointed by a federal judge to improve prison medical care because one person a day was dying inside our prisons because they couldn’t get access to care. There were like 200,000, almost 200,000 people incarcerated in California in 2006 for facilities designed for 80,000 people. And you can only imagine that’s going to compromise every aspect of life, especially medical care. So the Supreme Court ordered California to reduce the crowding. And that was sort of unprecedented, kind of order to get from the US Supreme Court. So it’s just been a part of my life following that, mostly, for over a decade. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or San for you, is there a story that you feel kind of most proud of reporting, or a moment where you feel like your journalism was kind of able to, you know, affect the broadest number of people or anything like that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s definitely a story I’m proud of, but I don’t feel it had the impact I wanted. I wrote a story for Wall City Magazine, which is a division of San Quentin News, about stopping gun violence, because I was watching TV one day and the senator was acting like he’s an expert on stopping gun violence because he talked to a gunshot victim. And based on talking to this gunshot victim, he came up with this or supported this idea of arming the teachers. And I’m sitting here thinking like, if you arm to teachers, that’s where the next guns are going to come from, you big dummy. And I just felt like, here I am in a prison with 2500 lifers running around with very little supervision at times, and it’s one of the safest places I had ever been up at that point in my life. And most of these guys that committed violence and we stopped it by therapy really, like putting restorative justice into place, not as a way to deal with harm, but as a as a way of life. So when harm is thinking about happening, this way of life is already in place to prevent it. Right. And just that therapy and being included in a community, being exclusioned, leaving people out of society, right, and rubbing in their face that you’re here but you’re not one of us. There’s all these different things that were happening in San Quentin, and I felt like were an answer to gun violence. And I wanted to get that out there. And so I did a lot of research and wrote this article I’m really proud of, and I think I’m the only that read it. Cuz we still get shot. Ah it’s sad. It’s sad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh I’m sorry. That that’s one of the most frustrating things is finding an audience for for your reporting. What about you, Jesse? Is there a story that you’re the most, you know, proud of writing or, you know, being an editor for getting getting in the paper? You know, despite obstacles?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I will clarify that. I did read Roseanne’s piece on gun violence. So it was two of us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At least two people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At least two of us read it. Well, there was probably one adviser who read it to to proofread it. So we did the best we could. There is one story that I think, I, I mean, I wrote and it was based on the victim compensation fund and the Department of Corrections. And I think the reason why I remember that story very vividly, because I had a couple guys on the prison yard actually come to me, right? And tell me, like, dude, like I didn’t know where my restitution money was going. I didn’t understand that there’s this victim compensation fund that is there, but the victims had to actually request it. You know, it’s not an automatic thing where, you know, like you’re paying into the restitution and a check is sent to the victims every, you know, month or every six months or whatever. It’s they have to keep their address up to date. They have to check that the money is there. They have to make sure that they tell the, you know, victim compensation board to make sure that they, you know, get their money. So I had a couple guys come to me and say, like, ‘You know what, I contacted my family to contact so-and-so to let them know, like, hey, there’s some money waiting for you because I’m getting charged for it. And I want to make sure that the victims get it. Instead of it being rolled into the general fund or whatever, you know that the state does.’ And I think the reason why I’m most proud of that story in particular, is because I’ve always wanted to at least make a difference in the small community that we were serving. And for me, that immediate context is the people that I was locked up with. And that’s why, like, you know, still to this day, I remember that one story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rahsaan, I was also wanting to ask you about the stories that you didn’t get to tell. Like, are there any stories that you wished you could tell, you know, while you were incarcerated but could not, because of, you know, the pressures or the censorship from others or just the limitations of the environment?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Honestly, there’s stories that I wish were told, but I didn’t want to tell them. For instance, there were like prison officials and wardens that were like getting in legal troubles. And so it felt hypocritical that they weren’t being punished and they were responsible for holding us accountable. But at the same time, I’m not trying to do stories about, like, blood and crip stuff, right? Like I’m trying to do positive stories or story that’s going to make a difference in stories like, look what they’re doing, right? I wanted to do stories that like, ‘Look what we could be doing and be a better place.’ So I can’t say there’s any stories that I really held back on. There’s stories I haven’t finished yet. There’s stories I’m working on, but nothing’s stopping me with me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you know, Jesse, I have a slightly different question for you, which is just, you know, as an editor, has there ever been a time where, you know, CDCR leadership or, you know, the warden of San Quentin or now that you’ve spread to other, you know, places has, you know, shut down a story or killed a story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, there was a story, one in particular that was going to go into Wall City Magazine. And it was a great story about, you know, two people finding love inside of the carceral system. I don’t know if you remember this one Rahsaan, but it was going to go in Wall City Magazine, and it was a great story written by Joe Garcia. And the lead editor on that was Kate McQueen. And it was an awesome piece, maybe about 2500 words. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the reason why it became an issue was for safety concerns. You know, inside of the California prison system, you can imagine the amount of, you know, machismo and, let’s say gender bias and stuff that exists, and a lot of the violence that is perpetuated against trans and, you know, other communities that people consider other. So it was like the administration was like, ‘We can’t let you run that story. It’s going to jeopardize these individuals, you know, if they get transferred somewhere else. San Quentin is a more, let’s say, tolerant environment, a more accepting environment. But if they ever get transferred somewhere else, you’re jeopardizing their safety. And, you know, we can’t allow that.’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that was one issue where I didn’t agree with the decision. But I also understood that it’s not my responsibility to worry about people’s safety. That’s the state responsibility. And they’re seeing it from a liability perspective that I wasn’t paying attention to. I was just looking at it as a good story. They were looking at it well, there’s liability, you know, and there’s implications. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I wanted to shift us into talking a little bit about some of the things that we ran into reporting this podcast, you know, this season of On Our Watch. Rahsaan, you were an editorial consultant for On Our Watch, and you gave feedback along the way about the series. And, you know, I always just really appreciated your input. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the things that you just kind of, I think brought home for me, in the editorial room was the kind of wildness of the situation with the murder of Luis Giovanny Aguilar. The fact that deadly force was not used, you know, in this unit and, you know, when this was transpiring. And you really wanted to, you know, help us get that across to listeners because we, you know, in our earlier drafts, we’re not doing so. Can you talk a little bit about that, like why that particular environment, why it was so kind of startling to you — who has a familiarity with the world inside prison — why the deadly force was not used as an option? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. The first thing you see, or one of the first things you notice that sounds really cold is the sign on the wall that says no warning shots, and they mean it. They don’t yell, you know, ‘Stop, break up the fight.’ They break up fights with gunfire. And so I know them to be really harsh with that weapon that Mini 14. I’ve been on the yard with people who have bullets in them from that Mini 14, and for it not to be used in that incident where the that might have been a viable way to stop somebody from getting killed? And they didn’t? It just spoke to me it like that was a setup. Like that was a huge clue to me that that’s not how that world works. I’ve actually seen the gun fired at San Quentin before, and this is like one guy had another guy in a headlock. No weapons were involved, but he just wouldn’t let him out of a headlock. And then, thank God, the officer fired into the ground. But he fired into the ground three times, right next to where the guy had the other guy in a headlock for a wrestling match, right? So I just don’t know a world where somebody’s gets stabbed to death and they don’t use that gun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And you talked about the kind of psychological impact of, like, living under that gun, like that, you know, that gun is in the control booth kind of looking over you all the time. And that really made an impact on me because I was kind of thinking about it more from the perspective of just like, ‘Oh, this is this person’s job is supposed to keep people safe.’ But there is just always this gun looking over you no matter what you’re doing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And I always felt like it’s supposed to protect you, but I always felt like because they have a bad habit of hitting people of color, not using them when your lives on the line, just, like, really selective. And even in a perfect world where they’re trying to do the right thing, it’s still a matter of aim and movement and just all these different factors. I rather take my chances with the ice pick. Y’all mind y’all business. I rather take my chances with the ice pick than that gun being over my head. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. Jesse, I also called you a number of times while working on this series because I just think of you as somebody who’s got really good advice about how to deal with tricky situations, ethical decisions, and, you know, just to make sure, like, do a gut check on myself about how I’m approaching certain things. And I know you have really strong feelings about this, but like, can you tell me, you know, what are your pet peeves? What are the pitfalls that you see reporters or news organizations falling prey to, you know, when they’re reporting on prisons and incarceration? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. It’s, I think it’s it’s personal to me just because, like, I know the folks inside, you know, and having been there for, you know, two decades, you get to learn people’s mannerisms and stuff and you have a different appreciation for life. So some of the things that I know, you know, when people report on the incarcerated or just on things that pertain to our living environment, there’s certain things that need to be said and told. Right? But they have repercussions for us as a population. It’s just like one thing, right? Like, for instance, they told the story about us getting, you know, Snickers bars and peanuts back in the days for Christmas. We used to get free Christmas packages, you know, that were paid for by the state. And a reporter happened to run the story and stuff like that. And it was great that the state was doing something for the incarcerated during Christmas time, you know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But unfortunately, when the story came out, there was so much backlash behind the state being “soft on crime” that they stopped that program. So it’s like, did you do this story as a human interest story or were you doing the story? Just because look at what taxpayer money is doing. Look at what they’re doing. They’re feeding these criminals and stuff. Right. So it’s the twist that they put on it. And sadly, you know, most of the stories that have come out of prison, you know, have been detrimental to the incarcerated, to our conditions. And everybody’s been speaking on our behalf, taking our quotes out of context. And it’s like, well, how come you just don’t let me tell the story, you know, how come you just don’t, like, report accurately what I’m trying to mention. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most reporters, they parachute into the prisons, they parachute in, get a story, run that story, and they tell you like, you know, number one is like, we want to protect people’s, you know, safety and well-being and stuff like that. That’s an illusion. That’s to appease your conscience. You can’t. You can’t guarantee anything. You know, once you take that story and run with it. Right. You can’t guarantee nobody’s safety. That’s number one. Number two, the idea of, you know, journalism doing no harm. It’s like nobody tells a story not intending to do harm. Sometimes we tell the story one and people to go to jail wanting things to change. Like that’s a reality. That’s harm. That’s going to happen to somebody’s family somewhere, somehow. You know, so when you take a story that a reporter publishes and then they don’t come back to talk to the person that they interviewed, when they don’t try to create community or relationships or stay engaged to make sure that nothing does happen to this person, like, that’s a disservice to that individual and to themselves as journalists, because now you’ve lost your credibility with the incarcerated because you told them you wanted this story to make a difference, but then you, like, let them down by just walking away after you got a Pulitzer or something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As part of Empowerment Avenue, we have help writers publish stories that are critical to CDCR and major platforms, and they have gotten flack for it. One writer in particular, he was put into a cell with a guy known for attacking people, and we feel it was on purpose. Like, you know, this guy’s attacking. You know, he keeps attacking people. He’s an old man with mental health issues. You know, this is going to happen. Sure enough, my boy got attacked. He didn’t fight back, though. He just did enough to, like, stop the attack. And they still put him in a hole even though he was the victim. Right. So we really feel like it was retaliatory. And in situations like that, your heart goes out and it’s a reminder that everybody’s not in San Quentin. Where the retaliat- I believe there’s retaliation as well, but it looks different. It doesn’t look like violence. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Was he was that person okay? Like what? What happened to them? Physically? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re fine. They survived it. Got hit in the head with a lock. So he survived it. And we’re trying to like right now sue to get the video footage to try to do something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julie, I was going to ask you, was is there anything, you know, that you’ve noticed in your years of reporting about prisons, you know, blind spots that you see regularly in the media or, you know, things that you’ve learned over the years that have kind of informed the way you approach prison reporting? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I like what was said about people parachuting in. That happens a lot. I like to think that I didn’t parachute in, but, because I kept covering the stories. But I can see now that I, I relied too heavily on advocates and people on the outside. It was harder before to actually speak to people who are incarcerated. And the first experience of having good access was during Covid. And I was able to talk to people in San Quentin as things were happening. But that was relatively new and recorded on a decent line. And, so it’s it’s changed and there’s better access now, but, a lot of times people will just focus in on one issue. There’s so many systemic issues. It needs to be covered over a period of time. So you can see if anything’s changing, if anything’s coming out of your reporting. It’s nearly impossible because it’s such a closed system. And I didn’t really appreciate that until we did this podcast. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, and I was thinking about the things that are being measured throughout my career, you know, the medical care, mental health care, how many visits to the therapist, dental care. You know, those were tangible things that I could measure, and even use of force going up or use of force going down. But we actually aren’t told what’s going on inside the prisons, where if a crime occurs inside, it’s not a public record. There’s so much going on, and it’s really hard for us to gauge how how dangerous it is because it’s completely being withheld from us. And, this podcast was the first time I really got to talk to correctional officers who were open about it, and also realizing that there are- they’re also people on that side caught in this, you know, silence, this code of silence that you can’t break it. They don’t agree with it. They’re aware of the problems, but they go along. And so I guess. That’s a much harder story to get at. And it took two years for us to get it. That’s, you know, and that’s maybe why people don’t get at it. But, this is breaking through that silence. The only way is to find to talk to more people who are formerly incarcerated and more people who are currently incarcerated and former staff of any stripe, whether they’re officers or psych techs or whatever they are. It’s the only way we’re going to know, really, what’s going on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jesse, you know, two of the kind of main subjects of the series were these two correctional officers who became whistleblowers, who reported misconduct, you know, within the ISU, the investigative services unit that they worked. And I just wonder about your experience with that. Like, have you had experience with correctional officers who became whistleblowers, who are willing to talk to you for stories or willing to talk to reporters for the San Quentin News? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I’ve. I’ve gotten, I mean, I know some corrections officers, now. It’s interesting to say, you know, that we’re friends to some extent. You know, it’s it would be odd, you know, to say that they weren’t, though, just because the level of intimacy that we’ve developed over time, and I think that just came with, like, developing a relationship where there was like, care and concern for the individual as a person versus just as a source for a story. And even though some of the stories that they’ve shared. Right, they go back, you know, five years, ten years, 15 years. Right. We haven’t really pursued them in a formal way, in an official way. Like if I get a story, I’ll usually pawn it off on somebody else because it’s not what we actually do at San Quentin News, or it’s something that I know is going to jeopardize, you know, that individual’s job or his safety. And it’s a story that I believe that, it’s not going to necessarily influence policy. Right. Because one of the things, right, when I hear stories of corrections officers in the struggles that they go through, you know, they go through the same issues that we go through as a culture inside of the prison system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, Rahsaan, what was your experience, you know, as a journalist incarcerated, you know, trying to get people to talk, you know, trying to get people to break that code of silence or that taboo against, you know, quote unquote, snitching?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I had different experiences. Some I never broke it, some I did, but for the most part, I wasn’t asking people to snitch on anything. Right. I allow people to be comfortable talking about the story without editing. And then I would edit in a way that would be to tell a story, but be respectful to the to their lives, to their trust in me, their faith in me. Because I always tell people, ‘I’m not TMZ, right? I’m trying to tell a story to make a difference. Right? I’m not. I’m a solution based reporter. I’m not. I’m just telling the story for entertainment. I don’t care about clicks. I don’t care about ratings. I don’t care about none of that stuff.’ I just want to put some intelligence on our world and show people like how we can deal with things in a way that’s gonna be effective. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so people trusted me with their stories because I wouldn’t put stuff out there that didn’t belong out there. That wasn’t necessary for the story. And if there was something edgy where we walking the line, I would talk about it with them and ask them did they feel comfortable? And they would have to make a grown person decision. Then when we started doing that, there were like OGs that would vouch for us. There were like there were people in the community be like, ‘Nah.’ Then an OG be like, ‘Yo, they good, I good bro. Like, you can talk to them.’ And they would get the green light to do the interview. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s really amazing. Another like really big hurdle that we dealt with and also that incarcerated people face, not just in the world of journalism, but overall is this perceived lack of credibility. And we saw this over and over again, you know, incarcerated people who had reported officers for using excessive force. But if the use of force happened in a place where there were no cameras, if there was no other tangible evidence to back up their story, it was not their story did not prevail. Jesse, can you talk a little bit about how you deal with these issues of credibility as an editor and how you advise journalists that you work with to think about these issues and help them get, you know, accountability or get justice through reporting? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. It’s, very tricky. Just because there’s, a couple of things, right, that I learned when I first went into the system before I became a journalist. Right. That have carried over into how we set editorial, reporting expectations. You know, it’s like you can go to an interview, hear a story from somebody, and then if it’s an allegation of misconduct or something like that, then we ask for like, documentation, paperwork, you know, appointment dockets. We ask for corroborating evidence, you know, like maybe a witness or two. Right. Somebody that was there and stuff like that. But the other thing that we also tell our reporters is the people that they’re interviewing, like if there isn’t documentation yet, had them document it now and start lodging those, you know, grievance forms like a 602, right. Start writing the ombudsman, start sending something to the attorney general and stuff like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then that way our story isn’t just, you know, he said she said, because that also protects us. Like, I want to make sure that above all else, right, that we continue to have some institutional credibility as a publication that at least tries to fact check and, you know, try to advise the people that were interviewing to do what’s right. Because the main thing that I realize about, the outside world and how they look at prison journalism, the way that we do it, is they think that it’s always advocacy journalism. And it’s not always that, you know, but they think because it’s prison journalists producing journalism, that it has to be advocacy because we’re talking against a system. And sometimes I think what we’re actually doing is just, you know, as they say, historically, journalism happens to be the first rough draft of human history. And I think that’s what we’re doing, just chronicling, you know, what’s happening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What about you, Rahsaan? Is there, like any difference in the way that you think about credibility in, in prison or in talking to incarcerated sources versus just, you know, any source that you might talk to for a story? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, I start out with talking with anyone as if they’re telling the truth, unless my instincts or they give me a reason not to believe them, or they make a claim that the world might not believe. And like Jesse said, you need proof to back it up. Not for me, but because if we’re going to print, it could be a lawsuit. Whatever I need to be able to back this up, it needs to be a fact, right? I think one of my greatest problems or greatest issues I ran into was being a freelancer. When it came to quoting incarcerated people in the yard. There were organizations that wanted like, it was just hard for them to accept a quote from an incarcerated person. They wanted, like notes and verification and just all this extra layers. But yet they’ll take a CDCR quote and run with it. Just don’t even fact check nothing, just run with it, put out propaganda. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I just felt like what makes their work better than ours? Or what as a journalist like, why would you devalue- is it me? Because like, you know, we have people on NBC that was known liars, like all kinds of journalists, on major platforms. So it’s not where you at, you know, that determines your level of integrity. And so I felt like I was almost being censored by my colleagues because you’re putting a higher standard on who’s quotable or who’s reliable. When I’m telling you I’m living right here. And I see this person’s daily walk every day. They’re reliable, right? They have a reliable track record. Right. And so who are you doubting, me? Them? Both? And what are you using to weigh credibility? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julie, I know you have spent many years covering prisons, a lot of years talking to public information officers and public affairs officers for CDCR. A lot of years, you know, trying to break through the wall of bureaucracy and official speak to get real answers on things that are incredibly important, you know, both for people who are incarcerated and for people who are not incarcerated, who pay for this incredibly expensive system that we all own here in California. You know, what are your, you know, tips, and, and how to do that or if not tips, what are your frustrations with trying to do that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I, I’m going to be a little negative here. I don’t think you’ll ever get a specific answer to a specific question unless it’s innocuous or makes them look good. I think the way to deal with it is to get your information and to dig deep and have your facts. And like we did in the podcast, like, say, ‘This, this and this happened, what’s your response?’ So that it’s like you’re giving them enough rope. They are saying something ludicrous in response to evidence that you’re presenting in your story. So I think it’s like going every other place to get the information, stacking it up and presenting it and then saying, ‘Okay, now try to deny all this.’ And then let them, let them deny it. And they it just exposes them as for what they are, just not telling the truth. Not not being forthright. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And what’s been your experience like, Jesse? I mean, I know, like when you were incarcerated, you would have to, you know, try and get response from CDCR and now, you know, as you know, kind of a publisher, like helping other journalists who are incarcerated, you know, how do you kind of bring accountability questions to, you know, CDC, our public affairs, and what are the kinds of answers you get? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s pretty interesting because the whole profession of being a public information officer, right? It’s a lot of damage control. You know, it’s a lot of damage control. It’s a lot of, you know, trying to salvage an image, you know, and I think, again, like I always preface what I say with, I try to give people a lot of grace because I understand as individuals you’re put in between a rock and a hard spot, right? When this is your job, this is what you get paid for. This is what you’re supposed to do, right? Ethically and morally, you may not agree with it, right? And you may have questions. But, you know, at the end of the day, you have to protect your institution from liability, you know? So I’m very mindful of that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, when I talk to our reporters and everybody that we’re training to be reporters inside the carceral system, it’s like, don’t expect people to validate the truth that you know. You know, like, just know that there’s going to be some version that’s going to come out that may not be the actual truth, you know, but you have to find a way to tell that story anyway. And then we have to be able to, not just bring them accountability, but also bring enough awareness and notoriety to the issue that it’s going to make a difference. Right? Because it can’t just come from one person and one source. And I think that’s been the thing that has helped us. Right? It’s not just about like the incarcerated. So our editor in chief wants to know this, you know, do you have an answer for him? It’s like, well, our editor in chief, you know, these two other publications and these five organizations, you know, are interested in what’s happening here. And all of a sudden it’s like, oh, you got more people involved and stuff, right? So it’s like there’s more eyeballs. There’s more accountability, right? Having more like institutions that produce journalism be involved with prison journalists is essential if we’re going to hold the systems accountable. Right. Because I think at the end of the day, most people want accountability and transparency, right? But it’s scary to go through that change. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, Rahsaan, I know we’ve talked in the past before about like, the frustrations that you have about the kinds of stories you feel like you’re allowed to tell, or people want you to tell. Can you speak to that a little bit about just, you know, the limitations that people of the journalism people allow you? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It goes back to credibility again. Right? For whatever reason, they don’t respect incarcerated people as real journalists, even though we are behind enemy lines, so to speak, and speaking from the belly of the beast, which is a tough. But certain organizations limit you to opinion pieces. Right. And so I try to be positive about that. Like we do enough opinion pieces and they’ll respect, like, we’ll build a relationship and then they’ll respect us. And then a guy will end up, you know, doing a feature piece, doing an actual reported piece. And, you know, here and there that works out, but some of us are still stuck, and some of these organizations still got it stuck in opinion piece mode. And I just think we’re so much better than that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I know that sometimes somebody might take offense that they’ve been to journalism school and got this degree and spent all this money and here comes somebody who just bootleg trained off the yard in the Journalism Guild, and they’re able to earn a living from prison or take up space in that paper that maybe these journalists feel like that belongs to me and my degree. But I think that if you want a better society, you have to get the whole story. Then we’ll be doing what we supposed to do as journalists, which I believe is a- to foster democracy, a world that’s inclusive, a world that’s better, a world that works for all of us. But if we only featuring one side of the story and we limit ourselves to this crap. This clickbait. We get what we we going to keep getting what we’ve been getting. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I do want to say that I think things are getting somewhat better. Empowerment Avenue launched during Covid when reporters couldn’t get the story except having direct access to us. And so we controlled the narrative and we were able to put stories out. But COVID’s gone and the demand for incarcerated voices has gone up. And now guys have actual journalism jobs as like editors and reporters from prison and making decent salaries. So I think the world is changing. But there’s still some organizations that don’t have incarcerated voices connected. They haven’t built that community. They don’t know where the experts are. So there’s still more work to be done. But because that the demand for our voices has grown, and formerly incarcerated people keep winning Pulitzer Prizes. So I’m super proud. Like the world wants to hear our side of the story, they tired of the same old law and order crap, right? And so I’m really going into the future hopeful, but yet still speaking loudly about all the flaws that we need to fix so we can hurry up and fix them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And I think I’ll just add that what made prison journalism a force to be reckoned with in the 1800s early 1900s, up until 1991, when we had, you know 300 newspapers inside of prisons, it was community engagement, you know, like deep engagement, you know, with the prison system and, you know, just paying attention to those stories and holding the system accountable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The other thing, too, like a lot of times we think that change in policy is going to change the world. And it doesn’t. You know, you can’t legislate how people feel about each other. You can’t tell me I gotta like somebody. You have to create a culture and an environment and a space where I want to help, where I want to care, where I want to be involved. Right. And I think creating spaces like this prison journalism movement that we have going on, like we’re actually trying to develop more civic engagement because people who are civically engaged care about their communities, and their communities start caring about them. So and I think that’s going to be at the core of how we create a cultural change that’s going to, you know, supersede policy, you know, by maybe five, ten years. So be mindful that, you know, like how you report on people, shows what you care for. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you, Jessie and Roseanne and Julie for having this great conversation about journalism. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bye. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you. I appreciate being here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Thanks for having us as colleagues on here. It’s great. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have links to Jesse and Rahsaan’s work in our episode description, as well as other resources to support prison journalism. Please continue to send tips or feedback about the series to onourwatch@KQED.org. This episode was hosted by me, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sukey Lewis\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. It was edited by Jen Chien, who is also KQED’s Director of Podcasts. It was produced by Chris Egusa. Final mixing by Brendan Willard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Original music by Ramtin Arablouei, including our theme song. Additional music from APM Music and Audio Network. Funding for On Our Watch is provided in part by Arnold Ventures and the California Endowment. Thank you to Katie Sprenger, our podcast operations manager, our managing Editor of News and Enterprise, Otis R. Taylor Jr., Ethan Toven-Lindsay, our Vice President of News and KQED Chief Content Officer Holly Kernan. And thanks to all of you for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reporting on prisons from the outside is often difficult; it’s a closed and secretive world. But there is also important reporting being done by people who are inside prison, which comes with dangers of its own. Sukey and Julie sit down with two formerly incarcerated journalists, Rahsaan Thomas and Jesse Vasquez, to talk about the challenges and opportunities of prison reporting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC6919454101\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rahsaan Thomas is the Executive Director of \u003ca href=\"https://www.empowermentave.org/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Empowerment Avenue\u003c/a> and a producer at \u003ca href=\"https://www.earhustlesq.com/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Ear Hustle\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jesse Vasquez is the Executive Director of the \u003ca href=\"https://polleninitiative.org/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Pollen Initiative\u003c/a> and former Editor-in-Chief of the \u003ca href=\"https://sanquentinnews.com/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">San Quentin News\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mental health resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you are currently in crisis, you can dial 988 [U.S.] to reach the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SAMHSA National Help Line\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://988lifeline.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.nami.org/help\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness) Helpline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.hhs.gov/programs/prevention-and-wellness/mental-health-substance-abuse/index.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">US Health and Human Services\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://warmline.org/warmdir.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Warmline Directory\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://journalism.berkeley.edu/programs/mj/investigative-reporting/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Investigative Reporting Program\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> at UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism was a key partner in making Season 2 of On Our Watch.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The records obtained for this project are part of the\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://projects.scpr.org/california-reporting-project/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> California Reporting Project\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a coalition of news organizations in California. If you have tips or feedback about this series please reach out to us at \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"mailto:onourwatch@kqed.org\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">onourwatch@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before we start. Just wanted to give you a heads up that this episode references acts of violence. If you or someone you know needs support. We’ve got links to resources in the episode description. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi and welcome back to another bonus episode of On Our Watch I’m \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sukey Lewis\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Throughout reporting this season, my co-reporter \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julie Small\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and I knocked on a lot of closed doors, pored over hundreds of pages of documents that were often redacted beyond recognition, and our best hope of contacting a source in prison was usually to send a letter via snail mail and hope they responded. In general, reporting on prisons can be really difficult, finding sources and navigating the politics of a closed world. But in recent years, there’s also been a revival of the prison journalism movement. Newspapers and podcasts created from inside that world by incarcerated reporters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Julie and I talk to two journalists who started their careers inside prison. Rahsaan “New York” Thomas, who consulted on this season of On Our Watch, is also a producer for the Ear Hustle podcast and started a nonprofit called Empowerment Avenue that supports incarcerated writers and artists. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> was editor in chief of the San Quentin News newspaper and now directs a nonprofit called the Pollen Initiative, which provides multimedia training to other people in California prisons. Here’s our conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you, everybody, for coming here today to the various places that we are joining, joining each other from. Rahsaan, how did you become a journalist? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I became a journalist by accident and half way because of a scam. I arrived in the San Quentin prison yard after working on this book for like, maybe seven, eight, almost ten years. And, but the book was mostly handwritten and there was no way to really edit it. Like when you want to edit it, you have to rewrite it or retype it and it’s like… And so I wanted to work for San Quentin News because they had computers and I wanted to type my book and set a computer so I can get somebody to help me edit it and hopefully publish it and get it on the New York Times bestseller list and change the world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so I went in there with that mindset. But I started fell in love with journalism. They made me the, sports reporter. And at first I was like, I want to write about bigger and better issues. Sports just seems so limited. But then I realized that. There was some social justice things happening, some really beautiful human interest things happening on the basketball court because it was uniting worlds that never meet normally, like billionaires and millionaires were playing basketball with kids from the streets of Los Angeles. And so something beautiful happening. And I fell in love with writing. And I found out at the same time that my book was horrible. Nobody ever deserves to see it. I need to rewrite it anyway. And but I got so caught up with journalism I never got to finish the book. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I feel you, I’m a I’m a failed novelist and poet. So journalism. Same save the universe from my creative writing as well. Jesse, what was your journey to journalism? How did you become involved in this world? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think my journey started with kind of like Rahsaan as an accident. I was more into daily journaling, and I was a pretty good writer in my academic, pursuits. Then I decided to transfer to San Quentin because I saw the San Quentin News join the Journalism Guild. And I fell in love with just telling people stories and meeting people in the yard and seeing what they were up to and making a difference in our community inside. I think journalism for me was what gave me purpose. In spite of the multiple life sentences that I was serving. It gave me an outlet to share people’s stories and make a difference while I was incarcerated. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And now you’re an editor. Like, how how was that transition and what’s the difference in in your mind if there is one between the work that you did as a journalist and as an editor? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the huge difference is I have to think more in terms of management and structure, like it’s… Before it was just, you know, I want to tell impactful stories, powerful stories, you know, human interest stories. And then I realized that there’s, you know, a ripple effect to what we say, how we say it and to who we say it, depending on the platform that we’re using. And editing and overseeing the management of incarcerated produced content for, like an institutional publication like San Quentin News can be a bit tricky just because, you know, there’s certain things that we want to be mindful of when it comes to what we publish and produce. So it’s very it’s a very political position. I never understood that being an editor was very political, and you have to be very mindful of, you know, how you approach a subject, you know, not just because of the liabilities, you know, but also because we have a certain responsibility to the community that we represent. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. The San Quentin News is such a unique publication. I myself am an alum of that program. When I was in graduate school at UC Berkeley Graduate School of Journalism, I got to go in with my professor, Bill Drummond, and work with some of the incarcerated journalists. And for me, you know, as a baby reporter myself, just figuring out the world of journalism, it was so inspiring to work with incarcerated reporters and also just to learn more about the this world of prison, prison reporting and criminal justice and kind of got me started heading down deeper and deeper into gaining expertise in the field and becoming a criminal justice reporter myself. What about you, Julie? Like what- what drew you to prison reporting in the first place? And, you know, is there a kind of seminal story for you about it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I, I like to say that it picked me. I didn’t pick prisons, picked prisons, picked me because my first day on the job in Sacramento was the day the then Governor Schwarzenegger declared a state of emergency in the prisons for overcrowding. The first major story I did was, you know, going into San Quentin, actually, with the federal receiver who’d been appointed by a federal judge to improve prison medical care because one person a day was dying inside our prisons because they couldn’t get access to care. There were like 200,000, almost 200,000 people incarcerated in California in 2006 for facilities designed for 80,000 people. And you can only imagine that’s going to compromise every aspect of life, especially medical care. So the Supreme Court ordered California to reduce the crowding. And that was sort of unprecedented, kind of order to get from the US Supreme Court. So it’s just been a part of my life following that, mostly, for over a decade. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or San for you, is there a story that you feel kind of most proud of reporting, or a moment where you feel like your journalism was kind of able to, you know, affect the broadest number of people or anything like that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s definitely a story I’m proud of, but I don’t feel it had the impact I wanted. I wrote a story for Wall City Magazine, which is a division of San Quentin News, about stopping gun violence, because I was watching TV one day and the senator was acting like he’s an expert on stopping gun violence because he talked to a gunshot victim. And based on talking to this gunshot victim, he came up with this or supported this idea of arming the teachers. And I’m sitting here thinking like, if you arm to teachers, that’s where the next guns are going to come from, you big dummy. And I just felt like, here I am in a prison with 2500 lifers running around with very little supervision at times, and it’s one of the safest places I had ever been up at that point in my life. And most of these guys that committed violence and we stopped it by therapy really, like putting restorative justice into place, not as a way to deal with harm, but as a as a way of life. So when harm is thinking about happening, this way of life is already in place to prevent it. Right. And just that therapy and being included in a community, being exclusioned, leaving people out of society, right, and rubbing in their face that you’re here but you’re not one of us. There’s all these different things that were happening in San Quentin, and I felt like were an answer to gun violence. And I wanted to get that out there. And so I did a lot of research and wrote this article I’m really proud of, and I think I’m the only that read it. Cuz we still get shot. Ah it’s sad. It’s sad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh I’m sorry. That that’s one of the most frustrating things is finding an audience for for your reporting. What about you, Jesse? Is there a story that you’re the most, you know, proud of writing or, you know, being an editor for getting getting in the paper? You know, despite obstacles?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I will clarify that. I did read Roseanne’s piece on gun violence. So it was two of us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At least two people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At least two of us read it. Well, there was probably one adviser who read it to to proofread it. So we did the best we could. There is one story that I think, I, I mean, I wrote and it was based on the victim compensation fund and the Department of Corrections. And I think the reason why I remember that story very vividly, because I had a couple guys on the prison yard actually come to me, right? And tell me, like, dude, like I didn’t know where my restitution money was going. I didn’t understand that there’s this victim compensation fund that is there, but the victims had to actually request it. You know, it’s not an automatic thing where, you know, like you’re paying into the restitution and a check is sent to the victims every, you know, month or every six months or whatever. It’s they have to keep their address up to date. They have to check that the money is there. They have to make sure that they tell the, you know, victim compensation board to make sure that they, you know, get their money. So I had a couple guys come to me and say, like, ‘You know what, I contacted my family to contact so-and-so to let them know, like, hey, there’s some money waiting for you because I’m getting charged for it. And I want to make sure that the victims get it. Instead of it being rolled into the general fund or whatever, you know that the state does.’ And I think the reason why I’m most proud of that story in particular, is because I’ve always wanted to at least make a difference in the small community that we were serving. And for me, that immediate context is the people that I was locked up with. And that’s why, like, you know, still to this day, I remember that one story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rahsaan, I was also wanting to ask you about the stories that you didn’t get to tell. Like, are there any stories that you wished you could tell, you know, while you were incarcerated but could not, because of, you know, the pressures or the censorship from others or just the limitations of the environment?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Honestly, there’s stories that I wish were told, but I didn’t want to tell them. For instance, there were like prison officials and wardens that were like getting in legal troubles. And so it felt hypocritical that they weren’t being punished and they were responsible for holding us accountable. But at the same time, I’m not trying to do stories about, like, blood and crip stuff, right? Like I’m trying to do positive stories or story that’s going to make a difference in stories like, look what they’re doing, right? I wanted to do stories that like, ‘Look what we could be doing and be a better place.’ So I can’t say there’s any stories that I really held back on. There’s stories I haven’t finished yet. There’s stories I’m working on, but nothing’s stopping me with me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you know, Jesse, I have a slightly different question for you, which is just, you know, as an editor, has there ever been a time where, you know, CDCR leadership or, you know, the warden of San Quentin or now that you’ve spread to other, you know, places has, you know, shut down a story or killed a story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, there was a story, one in particular that was going to go into Wall City Magazine. And it was a great story about, you know, two people finding love inside of the carceral system. I don’t know if you remember this one Rahsaan, but it was going to go in Wall City Magazine, and it was a great story written by Joe Garcia. And the lead editor on that was Kate McQueen. And it was an awesome piece, maybe about 2500 words. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the reason why it became an issue was for safety concerns. You know, inside of the California prison system, you can imagine the amount of, you know, machismo and, let’s say gender bias and stuff that exists, and a lot of the violence that is perpetuated against trans and, you know, other communities that people consider other. So it was like the administration was like, ‘We can’t let you run that story. It’s going to jeopardize these individuals, you know, if they get transferred somewhere else. San Quentin is a more, let’s say, tolerant environment, a more accepting environment. But if they ever get transferred somewhere else, you’re jeopardizing their safety. And, you know, we can’t allow that.’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that was one issue where I didn’t agree with the decision. But I also understood that it’s not my responsibility to worry about people’s safety. That’s the state responsibility. And they’re seeing it from a liability perspective that I wasn’t paying attention to. I was just looking at it as a good story. They were looking at it well, there’s liability, you know, and there’s implications. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I wanted to shift us into talking a little bit about some of the things that we ran into reporting this podcast, you know, this season of On Our Watch. Rahsaan, you were an editorial consultant for On Our Watch, and you gave feedback along the way about the series. And, you know, I always just really appreciated your input. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the things that you just kind of, I think brought home for me, in the editorial room was the kind of wildness of the situation with the murder of Luis Giovanny Aguilar. The fact that deadly force was not used, you know, in this unit and, you know, when this was transpiring. And you really wanted to, you know, help us get that across to listeners because we, you know, in our earlier drafts, we’re not doing so. Can you talk a little bit about that, like why that particular environment, why it was so kind of startling to you — who has a familiarity with the world inside prison — why the deadly force was not used as an option? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. The first thing you see, or one of the first things you notice that sounds really cold is the sign on the wall that says no warning shots, and they mean it. They don’t yell, you know, ‘Stop, break up the fight.’ They break up fights with gunfire. And so I know them to be really harsh with that weapon that Mini 14. I’ve been on the yard with people who have bullets in them from that Mini 14, and for it not to be used in that incident where the that might have been a viable way to stop somebody from getting killed? And they didn’t? It just spoke to me it like that was a setup. Like that was a huge clue to me that that’s not how that world works. I’ve actually seen the gun fired at San Quentin before, and this is like one guy had another guy in a headlock. No weapons were involved, but he just wouldn’t let him out of a headlock. And then, thank God, the officer fired into the ground. But he fired into the ground three times, right next to where the guy had the other guy in a headlock for a wrestling match, right? So I just don’t know a world where somebody’s gets stabbed to death and they don’t use that gun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And you talked about the kind of psychological impact of, like, living under that gun, like that, you know, that gun is in the control booth kind of looking over you all the time. And that really made an impact on me because I was kind of thinking about it more from the perspective of just like, ‘Oh, this is this person’s job is supposed to keep people safe.’ But there is just always this gun looking over you no matter what you’re doing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And I always felt like it’s supposed to protect you, but I always felt like because they have a bad habit of hitting people of color, not using them when your lives on the line, just, like, really selective. And even in a perfect world where they’re trying to do the right thing, it’s still a matter of aim and movement and just all these different factors. I rather take my chances with the ice pick. Y’all mind y’all business. I rather take my chances with the ice pick than that gun being over my head. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. Jesse, I also called you a number of times while working on this series because I just think of you as somebody who’s got really good advice about how to deal with tricky situations, ethical decisions, and, you know, just to make sure, like, do a gut check on myself about how I’m approaching certain things. And I know you have really strong feelings about this, but like, can you tell me, you know, what are your pet peeves? What are the pitfalls that you see reporters or news organizations falling prey to, you know, when they’re reporting on prisons and incarceration? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. It’s, I think it’s it’s personal to me just because, like, I know the folks inside, you know, and having been there for, you know, two decades, you get to learn people’s mannerisms and stuff and you have a different appreciation for life. So some of the things that I know, you know, when people report on the incarcerated or just on things that pertain to our living environment, there’s certain things that need to be said and told. Right? But they have repercussions for us as a population. It’s just like one thing, right? Like, for instance, they told the story about us getting, you know, Snickers bars and peanuts back in the days for Christmas. We used to get free Christmas packages, you know, that were paid for by the state. And a reporter happened to run the story and stuff like that. And it was great that the state was doing something for the incarcerated during Christmas time, you know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But unfortunately, when the story came out, there was so much backlash behind the state being “soft on crime” that they stopped that program. So it’s like, did you do this story as a human interest story or were you doing the story? Just because look at what taxpayer money is doing. Look at what they’re doing. They’re feeding these criminals and stuff. Right. So it’s the twist that they put on it. And sadly, you know, most of the stories that have come out of prison, you know, have been detrimental to the incarcerated, to our conditions. And everybody’s been speaking on our behalf, taking our quotes out of context. And it’s like, well, how come you just don’t let me tell the story, you know, how come you just don’t, like, report accurately what I’m trying to mention. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most reporters, they parachute into the prisons, they parachute in, get a story, run that story, and they tell you like, you know, number one is like, we want to protect people’s, you know, safety and well-being and stuff like that. That’s an illusion. That’s to appease your conscience. You can’t. You can’t guarantee anything. You know, once you take that story and run with it. Right. You can’t guarantee nobody’s safety. That’s number one. Number two, the idea of, you know, journalism doing no harm. It’s like nobody tells a story not intending to do harm. Sometimes we tell the story one and people to go to jail wanting things to change. Like that’s a reality. That’s harm. That’s going to happen to somebody’s family somewhere, somehow. You know, so when you take a story that a reporter publishes and then they don’t come back to talk to the person that they interviewed, when they don’t try to create community or relationships or stay engaged to make sure that nothing does happen to this person, like, that’s a disservice to that individual and to themselves as journalists, because now you’ve lost your credibility with the incarcerated because you told them you wanted this story to make a difference, but then you, like, let them down by just walking away after you got a Pulitzer or something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As part of Empowerment Avenue, we have help writers publish stories that are critical to CDCR and major platforms, and they have gotten flack for it. One writer in particular, he was put into a cell with a guy known for attacking people, and we feel it was on purpose. Like, you know, this guy’s attacking. You know, he keeps attacking people. He’s an old man with mental health issues. You know, this is going to happen. Sure enough, my boy got attacked. He didn’t fight back, though. He just did enough to, like, stop the attack. And they still put him in a hole even though he was the victim. Right. So we really feel like it was retaliatory. And in situations like that, your heart goes out and it’s a reminder that everybody’s not in San Quentin. Where the retaliat- I believe there’s retaliation as well, but it looks different. It doesn’t look like violence. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Was he was that person okay? Like what? What happened to them? Physically? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re fine. They survived it. Got hit in the head with a lock. So he survived it. And we’re trying to like right now sue to get the video footage to try to do something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julie, I was going to ask you, was is there anything, you know, that you’ve noticed in your years of reporting about prisons, you know, blind spots that you see regularly in the media or, you know, things that you’ve learned over the years that have kind of informed the way you approach prison reporting? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I like what was said about people parachuting in. That happens a lot. I like to think that I didn’t parachute in, but, because I kept covering the stories. But I can see now that I, I relied too heavily on advocates and people on the outside. It was harder before to actually speak to people who are incarcerated. And the first experience of having good access was during Covid. And I was able to talk to people in San Quentin as things were happening. But that was relatively new and recorded on a decent line. And, so it’s it’s changed and there’s better access now, but, a lot of times people will just focus in on one issue. There’s so many systemic issues. It needs to be covered over a period of time. So you can see if anything’s changing, if anything’s coming out of your reporting. It’s nearly impossible because it’s such a closed system. And I didn’t really appreciate that until we did this podcast. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, and I was thinking about the things that are being measured throughout my career, you know, the medical care, mental health care, how many visits to the therapist, dental care. You know, those were tangible things that I could measure, and even use of force going up or use of force going down. But we actually aren’t told what’s going on inside the prisons, where if a crime occurs inside, it’s not a public record. There’s so much going on, and it’s really hard for us to gauge how how dangerous it is because it’s completely being withheld from us. And, this podcast was the first time I really got to talk to correctional officers who were open about it, and also realizing that there are- they’re also people on that side caught in this, you know, silence, this code of silence that you can’t break it. They don’t agree with it. They’re aware of the problems, but they go along. And so I guess. That’s a much harder story to get at. And it took two years for us to get it. That’s, you know, and that’s maybe why people don’t get at it. But, this is breaking through that silence. The only way is to find to talk to more people who are formerly incarcerated and more people who are currently incarcerated and former staff of any stripe, whether they’re officers or psych techs or whatever they are. It’s the only way we’re going to know, really, what’s going on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jesse, you know, two of the kind of main subjects of the series were these two correctional officers who became whistleblowers, who reported misconduct, you know, within the ISU, the investigative services unit that they worked. And I just wonder about your experience with that. Like, have you had experience with correctional officers who became whistleblowers, who are willing to talk to you for stories or willing to talk to reporters for the San Quentin News? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I’ve. I’ve gotten, I mean, I know some corrections officers, now. It’s interesting to say, you know, that we’re friends to some extent. You know, it’s it would be odd, you know, to say that they weren’t, though, just because the level of intimacy that we’ve developed over time, and I think that just came with, like, developing a relationship where there was like, care and concern for the individual as a person versus just as a source for a story. And even though some of the stories that they’ve shared. Right, they go back, you know, five years, ten years, 15 years. Right. We haven’t really pursued them in a formal way, in an official way. Like if I get a story, I’ll usually pawn it off on somebody else because it’s not what we actually do at San Quentin News, or it’s something that I know is going to jeopardize, you know, that individual’s job or his safety. And it’s a story that I believe that, it’s not going to necessarily influence policy. Right. Because one of the things, right, when I hear stories of corrections officers in the struggles that they go through, you know, they go through the same issues that we go through as a culture inside of the prison system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, Rahsaan, what was your experience, you know, as a journalist incarcerated, you know, trying to get people to talk, you know, trying to get people to break that code of silence or that taboo against, you know, quote unquote, snitching?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I had different experiences. Some I never broke it, some I did, but for the most part, I wasn’t asking people to snitch on anything. Right. I allow people to be comfortable talking about the story without editing. And then I would edit in a way that would be to tell a story, but be respectful to the to their lives, to their trust in me, their faith in me. Because I always tell people, ‘I’m not TMZ, right? I’m trying to tell a story to make a difference. Right? I’m not. I’m a solution based reporter. I’m not. I’m just telling the story for entertainment. I don’t care about clicks. I don’t care about ratings. I don’t care about none of that stuff.’ I just want to put some intelligence on our world and show people like how we can deal with things in a way that’s gonna be effective. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so people trusted me with their stories because I wouldn’t put stuff out there that didn’t belong out there. That wasn’t necessary for the story. And if there was something edgy where we walking the line, I would talk about it with them and ask them did they feel comfortable? And they would have to make a grown person decision. Then when we started doing that, there were like OGs that would vouch for us. There were like there were people in the community be like, ‘Nah.’ Then an OG be like, ‘Yo, they good, I good bro. Like, you can talk to them.’ And they would get the green light to do the interview. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s really amazing. Another like really big hurdle that we dealt with and also that incarcerated people face, not just in the world of journalism, but overall is this perceived lack of credibility. And we saw this over and over again, you know, incarcerated people who had reported officers for using excessive force. But if the use of force happened in a place where there were no cameras, if there was no other tangible evidence to back up their story, it was not their story did not prevail. Jesse, can you talk a little bit about how you deal with these issues of credibility as an editor and how you advise journalists that you work with to think about these issues and help them get, you know, accountability or get justice through reporting? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. It’s, very tricky. Just because there’s, a couple of things, right, that I learned when I first went into the system before I became a journalist. Right. That have carried over into how we set editorial, reporting expectations. You know, it’s like you can go to an interview, hear a story from somebody, and then if it’s an allegation of misconduct or something like that, then we ask for like, documentation, paperwork, you know, appointment dockets. We ask for corroborating evidence, you know, like maybe a witness or two. Right. Somebody that was there and stuff like that. But the other thing that we also tell our reporters is the people that they’re interviewing, like if there isn’t documentation yet, had them document it now and start lodging those, you know, grievance forms like a 602, right. Start writing the ombudsman, start sending something to the attorney general and stuff like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then that way our story isn’t just, you know, he said she said, because that also protects us. Like, I want to make sure that above all else, right, that we continue to have some institutional credibility as a publication that at least tries to fact check and, you know, try to advise the people that were interviewing to do what’s right. Because the main thing that I realize about, the outside world and how they look at prison journalism, the way that we do it, is they think that it’s always advocacy journalism. And it’s not always that, you know, but they think because it’s prison journalists producing journalism, that it has to be advocacy because we’re talking against a system. And sometimes I think what we’re actually doing is just, you know, as they say, historically, journalism happens to be the first rough draft of human history. And I think that’s what we’re doing, just chronicling, you know, what’s happening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What about you, Rahsaan? Is there, like any difference in the way that you think about credibility in, in prison or in talking to incarcerated sources versus just, you know, any source that you might talk to for a story? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, I start out with talking with anyone as if they’re telling the truth, unless my instincts or they give me a reason not to believe them, or they make a claim that the world might not believe. And like Jesse said, you need proof to back it up. Not for me, but because if we’re going to print, it could be a lawsuit. Whatever I need to be able to back this up, it needs to be a fact, right? I think one of my greatest problems or greatest issues I ran into was being a freelancer. When it came to quoting incarcerated people in the yard. There were organizations that wanted like, it was just hard for them to accept a quote from an incarcerated person. They wanted, like notes and verification and just all this extra layers. But yet they’ll take a CDCR quote and run with it. Just don’t even fact check nothing, just run with it, put out propaganda. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I just felt like what makes their work better than ours? Or what as a journalist like, why would you devalue- is it me? Because like, you know, we have people on NBC that was known liars, like all kinds of journalists, on major platforms. So it’s not where you at, you know, that determines your level of integrity. And so I felt like I was almost being censored by my colleagues because you’re putting a higher standard on who’s quotable or who’s reliable. When I’m telling you I’m living right here. And I see this person’s daily walk every day. They’re reliable, right? They have a reliable track record. Right. And so who are you doubting, me? Them? Both? And what are you using to weigh credibility? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julie, I know you have spent many years covering prisons, a lot of years talking to public information officers and public affairs officers for CDCR. A lot of years, you know, trying to break through the wall of bureaucracy and official speak to get real answers on things that are incredibly important, you know, both for people who are incarcerated and for people who are not incarcerated, who pay for this incredibly expensive system that we all own here in California. You know, what are your, you know, tips, and, and how to do that or if not tips, what are your frustrations with trying to do that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I, I’m going to be a little negative here. I don’t think you’ll ever get a specific answer to a specific question unless it’s innocuous or makes them look good. I think the way to deal with it is to get your information and to dig deep and have your facts. And like we did in the podcast, like, say, ‘This, this and this happened, what’s your response?’ So that it’s like you’re giving them enough rope. They are saying something ludicrous in response to evidence that you’re presenting in your story. So I think it’s like going every other place to get the information, stacking it up and presenting it and then saying, ‘Okay, now try to deny all this.’ And then let them, let them deny it. And they it just exposes them as for what they are, just not telling the truth. Not not being forthright. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And what’s been your experience like, Jesse? I mean, I know, like when you were incarcerated, you would have to, you know, try and get response from CDCR and now, you know, as you know, kind of a publisher, like helping other journalists who are incarcerated, you know, how do you kind of bring accountability questions to, you know, CDC, our public affairs, and what are the kinds of answers you get? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s pretty interesting because the whole profession of being a public information officer, right? It’s a lot of damage control. You know, it’s a lot of damage control. It’s a lot of, you know, trying to salvage an image, you know, and I think, again, like I always preface what I say with, I try to give people a lot of grace because I understand as individuals you’re put in between a rock and a hard spot, right? When this is your job, this is what you get paid for. This is what you’re supposed to do, right? Ethically and morally, you may not agree with it, right? And you may have questions. But, you know, at the end of the day, you have to protect your institution from liability, you know? So I’m very mindful of that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, when I talk to our reporters and everybody that we’re training to be reporters inside the carceral system, it’s like, don’t expect people to validate the truth that you know. You know, like, just know that there’s going to be some version that’s going to come out that may not be the actual truth, you know, but you have to find a way to tell that story anyway. And then we have to be able to, not just bring them accountability, but also bring enough awareness and notoriety to the issue that it’s going to make a difference. Right? Because it can’t just come from one person and one source. And I think that’s been the thing that has helped us. Right? It’s not just about like the incarcerated. So our editor in chief wants to know this, you know, do you have an answer for him? It’s like, well, our editor in chief, you know, these two other publications and these five organizations, you know, are interested in what’s happening here. And all of a sudden it’s like, oh, you got more people involved and stuff, right? So it’s like there’s more eyeballs. There’s more accountability, right? Having more like institutions that produce journalism be involved with prison journalists is essential if we’re going to hold the systems accountable. Right. Because I think at the end of the day, most people want accountability and transparency, right? But it’s scary to go through that change. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, Rahsaan, I know we’ve talked in the past before about like, the frustrations that you have about the kinds of stories you feel like you’re allowed to tell, or people want you to tell. Can you speak to that a little bit about just, you know, the limitations that people of the journalism people allow you? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It goes back to credibility again. Right? For whatever reason, they don’t respect incarcerated people as real journalists, even though we are behind enemy lines, so to speak, and speaking from the belly of the beast, which is a tough. But certain organizations limit you to opinion pieces. Right. And so I try to be positive about that. Like we do enough opinion pieces and they’ll respect, like, we’ll build a relationship and then they’ll respect us. And then a guy will end up, you know, doing a feature piece, doing an actual reported piece. And, you know, here and there that works out, but some of us are still stuck, and some of these organizations still got it stuck in opinion piece mode. And I just think we’re so much better than that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I know that sometimes somebody might take offense that they’ve been to journalism school and got this degree and spent all this money and here comes somebody who just bootleg trained off the yard in the Journalism Guild, and they’re able to earn a living from prison or take up space in that paper that maybe these journalists feel like that belongs to me and my degree. But I think that if you want a better society, you have to get the whole story. Then we’ll be doing what we supposed to do as journalists, which I believe is a- to foster democracy, a world that’s inclusive, a world that’s better, a world that works for all of us. But if we only featuring one side of the story and we limit ourselves to this crap. This clickbait. We get what we we going to keep getting what we’ve been getting. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I do want to say that I think things are getting somewhat better. Empowerment Avenue launched during Covid when reporters couldn’t get the story except having direct access to us. And so we controlled the narrative and we were able to put stories out. But COVID’s gone and the demand for incarcerated voices has gone up. And now guys have actual journalism jobs as like editors and reporters from prison and making decent salaries. So I think the world is changing. But there’s still some organizations that don’t have incarcerated voices connected. They haven’t built that community. They don’t know where the experts are. So there’s still more work to be done. But because that the demand for our voices has grown, and formerly incarcerated people keep winning Pulitzer Prizes. So I’m super proud. Like the world wants to hear our side of the story, they tired of the same old law and order crap, right? And so I’m really going into the future hopeful, but yet still speaking loudly about all the flaws that we need to fix so we can hurry up and fix them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And I think I’ll just add that what made prison journalism a force to be reckoned with in the 1800s early 1900s, up until 1991, when we had, you know 300 newspapers inside of prisons, it was community engagement, you know, like deep engagement, you know, with the prison system and, you know, just paying attention to those stories and holding the system accountable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The other thing, too, like a lot of times we think that change in policy is going to change the world. And it doesn’t. You know, you can’t legislate how people feel about each other. You can’t tell me I gotta like somebody. You have to create a culture and an environment and a space where I want to help, where I want to care, where I want to be involved. Right. And I think creating spaces like this prison journalism movement that we have going on, like we’re actually trying to develop more civic engagement because people who are civically engaged care about their communities, and their communities start caring about them. So and I think that’s going to be at the core of how we create a cultural change that’s going to, you know, supersede policy, you know, by maybe five, ten years. So be mindful that, you know, like how you report on people, shows what you care for. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you, Jessie and Roseanne and Julie for having this great conversation about journalism. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bye. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you. I appreciate being here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Thanks for having us as colleagues on here. It’s great. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have links to Jesse and Rahsaan’s work in our episode description, as well as other resources to support prison journalism. Please continue to send tips or feedback about the series to onourwatch@KQED.org. This episode was hosted by me, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sukey Lewis\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. It was edited by Jen Chien, who is also KQED’s Director of Podcasts. It was produced by Chris Egusa. Final mixing by Brendan Willard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Original music by Ramtin Arablouei, including our theme song. Additional music from APM Music and Audio Network. Funding for On Our Watch is provided in part by Arnold Ventures and the California Endowment. Thank you to Katie Sprenger, our podcast operations manager, our managing Editor of News and Enterprise, Otis R. Taylor Jr., Ethan Toven-Lindsay, our Vice President of News and KQED Chief Content Officer Holly Kernan. And thanks to all of you for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>Updated 7 p.m. Monday \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A heated dispute over the decision by the Alameda County district attorney’s office to forgo criminal charges in a stabbing case has spun out into an unusually public spat between two of the county’s top law enforcement agencies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the center of the conflict is a federal parole violation hearing set to be heard Monday morning in San Francisco. The defendant, Hayward resident Robert Barroca, 59, was convicted in 2005 for making methamphetamine and being in possession of a firearm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Alameda County sheriff’s officials identified Barroca as a suspect in a January stabbing that took place in Hayward’s Meek Estate Park, the sheriff’s department said in \u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=854665116705613&set=a.256424806529650\">a May 30 Facebook post\u003c/a>. An Alameda County Superior Court judge issued an arrest warrant for Barroca, and on May 16, he was arrested by sheriff’s deputies, who presented the case to the district’s attorney’s office for charging, according to the post.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the DA declined to charge, the sheriff’s office said deputies reported Barroca’s alleged involvement in the stabbing to Barroca’s federal parole agent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The sheriff’s department’s Facebook post about the case garnered more than a hundred comments, many expressing support for the effort to recall District Attorney Pamela Price, whose critics have accused her of not pursuing criminal cases aggressively enough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is not the first time we have pointed out that the DA did not charge something,” a sheriff’s spokesperson \u003ca href=\"https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/alameda-county-sheriff-seeks-help-from-feds-after-da-declines-to-file-charges/\">told KRON4\u003c/a>. “It’s been more consistent. This is not a war on the DA’s office; this is us being honest with the public, with our community, about what’s happening,”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When reached Monday morning, Haaziq Madyun, a spokesperson for the DA’s office, said he couldn’t explain the decision not to charge Barroca because Price, who could provide that information, is away from the office at least through the end of the week, following the recent death of her mother.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The matter was reviewed by a veteran charging deputy attorney, who advised ACSO to present the case to our federal law enforcement partners,” he told KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside label='Related Coverage' tag='pamela-price']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although KRON4 reported that Madyun said the DA’s office had reached out to federal authorities, Madyun later told KQED that the statement was incorrect and clarified it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a \u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=768694235446601&set=a.159982962984401\">Facebook post\u003c/a> on Friday, Price’s campaign against the recall suggested the sheriff’s office knew why the DA’s office declined to prosecute but conspicuously left that information out of its Facebook post.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The campaign’s post invited Alameda County Sheriff Yesenia Sanchez to call Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A call seems like an appropriate first step from one professional Alameda County law enforcement official to another,” the post said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“To be fair, if the ACSO wants to make social media posts highlighting when cases are not charged, the community should demand that the ACSO create social media posts every time the DAO does charge on cases presented by the Sheriff’s Office,” the post continued.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On Monday afternoon, Lt. Tya Modeste, a spokesperson for the sheriff’s office, said the office regularly posts on social media about the outcomes of department investigations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During May, the sheriff’s office posted five times on its Facebook page about arrests, including the post about Barroca. Three mentioned the DA’s office charging the suspect, and the fourth, regarding a series of arrests made during an operation targeting a sideshow, didn’t mention whether charges were brought.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When the DA brings charges we say that, and when they don’t we say that,” Modeste said, adding that the sheriff’s office never goes into why a case was or was not charged by the DA.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In Barroca’s case, Modeste said the DA declined to bring charges because the victim was not entirely certain Barroca was the person who stabbed them. On a 10-point scale, the victim ranked their certainty at an 8 or 9, according to Modeste.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Madyun said the dispute, and the comments on the sheriff’s Facebook post, point to a larger issue: Most of the DA’s work happens outside of public view, and when one case gets highlighted, it’s easy for the public to think that case is representative of all of the DA’s work when it might not be, he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Decisions to charge or not charge are made everyday by DA’s across the country. Individual cases are not posted on [Facebook] everyday,” he wrote in a text message.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the Alameda County District Attorney’s 2023 annual report, charging rates under Price have \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11985311/alameda-county-district-attorneys-report-shows-prosecution-rates-remain-steady\">remained relatively consistent\u003c/a> with those of her predecessor, Nancy O’Malley. The office reports it took action on 11,977 cases last year.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although KRON4 reported that Madyun said the DA’s office had reached out to federal authorities, Madyun later told KQED that the statement was incorrect and clarified it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a \u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=768694235446601&set=a.159982962984401\">Facebook post\u003c/a> on Friday, Price’s campaign against the recall suggested the sheriff’s office knew why the DA’s office declined to prosecute but conspicuously left that information out of its Facebook post.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The campaign’s post invited Alameda County Sheriff Yesenia Sanchez to call Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A call seems like an appropriate first step from one professional Alameda County law enforcement official to another,” the post said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“To be fair, if the ACSO wants to make social media posts highlighting when cases are not charged, the community should demand that the ACSO create social media posts every time the DAO does charge on cases presented by the Sheriff’s Office,” the post continued.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On Monday afternoon, Lt. Tya Modeste, a spokesperson for the sheriff’s office, said the office regularly posts on social media about the outcomes of department investigations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During May, the sheriff’s office posted five times on its Facebook page about arrests, including the post about Barroca. Three mentioned the DA’s office charging the suspect, and the fourth, regarding a series of arrests made during an operation targeting a sideshow, didn’t mention whether charges were brought.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When the DA brings charges we say that, and when they don’t we say that,” Modeste said, adding that the sheriff’s office never goes into why a case was or was not charged by the DA.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In Barroca’s case, Modeste said the DA declined to bring charges because the victim was not entirely certain Barroca was the person who stabbed them. On a 10-point scale, the victim ranked their certainty at an 8 or 9, according to Modeste.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Madyun said the dispute, and the comments on the sheriff’s Facebook post, point to a larger issue: Most of the DA’s work happens outside of public view, and when one case gets highlighted, it’s easy for the public to think that case is representative of all of the DA’s work when it might not be, he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Decisions to charge or not charge are made everyday by DA’s across the country. Individual cases are not posted on [Facebook] everyday,” he wrote in a text message.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the Alameda County District Attorney’s 2023 annual report, charging rates under Price have \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11985311/alameda-county-district-attorneys-report-shows-prosecution-rates-remain-steady\">remained relatively consistent\u003c/a> with those of her predecessor, Nancy O’Malley. The office reports it took action on 11,977 cases last year.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Case of Former San José Police Union Official Charged With Attempting to Import Illegal Drugs Could Be Resolved by August",
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"content": "\u003cp>The long-running case of a former San José police union employee charged with attempting to illegally import drugs to the U.S. could be resolved by August.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Joanne Segovia, the former longtime executive director at the San José Police Officers’ Association, appeared in federal court today in San José for the first time since her initial hearing in March 2023.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Segovia, now 65, was charged in connection with an apparent international drug ring scheming to bring illicit opioids into the Bay Area and the U.S. She came to the attention of Homeland Security Investigations agents who were pursuing leads in the case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time of her charging, officials said she could face up to 20 years in prison if convicted, though it appears the case could be headed toward a plea bargain, according to legal filings and statements by attorneys in court.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Magistrate Judge Nathanael Cousins told prosecutors and Segovia’s defense attorneys on Tuesday they’d need to appear in court Friday to give a status update on the case, which has been continued 14 times while the two sides discussed facts and circumstances of the case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Many of the requests by attorneys for time extensions came just hours before a hearing was scheduled to begin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cousins reminded the attorneys of the public interest in the “prompt disposition of criminal cases.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The 14 continuances made me think then and now that the public’s interest was not being satisfied,” Cousins said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Assistant U.S. Attorney Joseph Tartakovsky, the lead prosecutor on the case, told Cousins the government is “keenly interested” in bringing the case to a resolution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It hasn’t happened yet, despite extensive discussions, because there are a number of very unusual factual issues that this case presents,” Tartakovsky said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He asked the court for a month more time but said he wouldn’t seek another extension after that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One last extension. At that point, the government will either present the court with a resolution or the government will indict. But that will be the end of the line,” Tartakovsky said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Part of the reason for the extensions in the case is “differences in the government’s and the defendant’s views of the facts,” Segovia’s attorney, Will Edelman, wrote in a court filing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Edelman, citing health issues and personal difficulties, is withdrawing from the case and Segovia will be represented by attorney Adam Gasner. Edelman noted in his filing that finding a new attorney for Segovia and transitioning the case to Gasner required additional time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nonetheless, “the parties have engaged in extensive back-and-forth discussions about such potential resolutions, including multiple meetings, presentations, and detailed correspondence,” Edelman wrote. He characterized the talks as productive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A potential case resolution that has been discussed and refined extensively remains a possibility,” he wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gasner asked the court to schedule the next hearing for August 15 to ensure he has time to review all the details of the case, and Cousins granted the request.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Julia Jayne, a white-collar criminal defense attorney based in Berkeley, said the length of this case is not exceptional, as two sides are trying to find a middle ground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is what should be done in every case, right? If you want to potentially resolve it, you go back and forth, you talk about it, to try to figure out a resolution. Sometimes that takes time,” Jayne said. “(The attorneys) are basically saying ‘it’s not like we’ve been sitting around doing nothing.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tartakovsky, Gasner and Segovia all declined to comment when leaving the courthouse Friday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While prosecutors listed just one alleged crime in a March 2023 criminal complaint against Segovia, a supporting report written by a Homeland Security special agent laid out a series of alleged actions by Segovia over several years, which officials said are consistent with the shipping, receiving and distributing of illicit drugs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Segovia used both her personal computer and a computer at the police union office to order thousands of opioids and other pills to her San José home “and agreed to distribute the drugs elsewhere in the United States,” the U.S. Attorney’s Office said previously.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>From October 2015 to January 2023, Segovia had at least 61 shipments mailed to her home, originating from various other nations. While the shipping information for the packages claimed they contained things like “Wedding Party Favors,” “Gift Makeup,” or “Chocolate and Sweets,” investigators believe they contained drugs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Between July 2019 and January 2023, officials intercepted and opened five of these shipments and found that they contained thousands of pills of controlled substances, including the synthetic opioids Tramadol and Tapentadol,” the U.S. Attorney’s Office said. Investigators seized drugs at both her home and office, including hundreds of Tapentadol pills at her police union office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Investigators said Segovia used CashApp and PayPal to send money to people in various countries and WhatsApp to send and receive hundreds of logistics messages and photos to a person with an Indian country code phone number.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In one image she allegedly sent showing a PayPal payment confirmation of $999.99, her work computer monitor can be seen along with a San José Police Officers’ Association letter opener and one of her police union business cards below the monitor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside label=\"Related Stories\" postID=\"news_11945256,news_11983119,news_11983106\"]When initially confronted about the alleged drug shipments, federal investigators said Segovia lied to them about her activities and tried to shift blame onto her housekeeper. Though Segovia is not a police officer and was an administrative employee for the union representing roughly 1,100 San José police officers, investigators said she claimed at one point to “work for the police department.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Segovia is alleged to have continued ordering drugs after being interviewed by federal authorities in February 2023. A package sent from China in March 2023 addressed to her and labeled as containing a “clock” was seized by federal agents in Kentucky. The attorney’s office said the package actually contained valeryl fentanyl.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Attorneys in the case have not commented on what a possible deal might look like.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Where a case involves serious drugs, that involves any kind of distribution, somebody is often looking at prison time,” Jayne said. She noted the amounts of drugs involved and mitigating issues like addiction could also factor into any potential deal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the roughly 14 months after Segovia’s first court hearing, federal judges approved some travel for her, allowing her to attend family events out of state and go on vacation. She was not permitted to travel internationally, according to court documents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Segovia was fired by the police union on April 7, 2023, after an initial internal investigation by police union executives. In the wake of the drug charge revelations, union officials claimed there were no other union employees or police officers involved in the alleged drug crimes and that no one knew about Segovia’s behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Police union leaders said last year that the organization would also hire an outside investigator to look into Segovia’s alleged actions and examine the union’s own internal processes to see if there were steps that could have been taken to identify her alleged behavior sooner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Magistrate Judge Nathanael Cousins told prosecutors and Segovia’s defense attorneys on Tuesday they’d need to appear in court Friday to give a status update on the case, which has been continued 14 times while the two sides discussed facts and circumstances of the case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Many of the requests by attorneys for time extensions came just hours before a hearing was scheduled to begin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cousins reminded the attorneys of the public interest in the “prompt disposition of criminal cases.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The 14 continuances made me think then and now that the public’s interest was not being satisfied,” Cousins said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Assistant U.S. Attorney Joseph Tartakovsky, the lead prosecutor on the case, told Cousins the government is “keenly interested” in bringing the case to a resolution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It hasn’t happened yet, despite extensive discussions, because there are a number of very unusual factual issues that this case presents,” Tartakovsky said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He asked the court for a month more time but said he wouldn’t seek another extension after that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One last extension. At that point, the government will either present the court with a resolution or the government will indict. But that will be the end of the line,” Tartakovsky said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Part of the reason for the extensions in the case is “differences in the government’s and the defendant’s views of the facts,” Segovia’s attorney, Will Edelman, wrote in a court filing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Edelman, citing health issues and personal difficulties, is withdrawing from the case and Segovia will be represented by attorney Adam Gasner. Edelman noted in his filing that finding a new attorney for Segovia and transitioning the case to Gasner required additional time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nonetheless, “the parties have engaged in extensive back-and-forth discussions about such potential resolutions, including multiple meetings, presentations, and detailed correspondence,” Edelman wrote. He characterized the talks as productive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A potential case resolution that has been discussed and refined extensively remains a possibility,” he wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gasner asked the court to schedule the next hearing for August 15 to ensure he has time to review all the details of the case, and Cousins granted the request.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Julia Jayne, a white-collar criminal defense attorney based in Berkeley, said the length of this case is not exceptional, as two sides are trying to find a middle ground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is what should be done in every case, right? If you want to potentially resolve it, you go back and forth, you talk about it, to try to figure out a resolution. Sometimes that takes time,” Jayne said. “(The attorneys) are basically saying ‘it’s not like we’ve been sitting around doing nothing.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tartakovsky, Gasner and Segovia all declined to comment when leaving the courthouse Friday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While prosecutors listed just one alleged crime in a March 2023 criminal complaint against Segovia, a supporting report written by a Homeland Security special agent laid out a series of alleged actions by Segovia over several years, which officials said are consistent with the shipping, receiving and distributing of illicit drugs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Segovia used both her personal computer and a computer at the police union office to order thousands of opioids and other pills to her San José home “and agreed to distribute the drugs elsewhere in the United States,” the U.S. Attorney’s Office said previously.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>From October 2015 to January 2023, Segovia had at least 61 shipments mailed to her home, originating from various other nations. While the shipping information for the packages claimed they contained things like “Wedding Party Favors,” “Gift Makeup,” or “Chocolate and Sweets,” investigators believe they contained drugs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Between July 2019 and January 2023, officials intercepted and opened five of these shipments and found that they contained thousands of pills of controlled substances, including the synthetic opioids Tramadol and Tapentadol,” the U.S. Attorney’s Office said. Investigators seized drugs at both her home and office, including hundreds of Tapentadol pills at her police union office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Investigators said Segovia used CashApp and PayPal to send money to people in various countries and WhatsApp to send and receive hundreds of logistics messages and photos to a person with an Indian country code phone number.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In one image she allegedly sent showing a PayPal payment confirmation of $999.99, her work computer monitor can be seen along with a San José Police Officers’ Association letter opener and one of her police union business cards below the monitor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>When initially confronted about the alleged drug shipments, federal investigators said Segovia lied to them about her activities and tried to shift blame onto her housekeeper. Though Segovia is not a police officer and was an administrative employee for the union representing roughly 1,100 San José police officers, investigators said she claimed at one point to “work for the police department.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Segovia is alleged to have continued ordering drugs after being interviewed by federal authorities in February 2023. A package sent from China in March 2023 addressed to her and labeled as containing a “clock” was seized by federal agents in Kentucky. The attorney’s office said the package actually contained valeryl fentanyl.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Attorneys in the case have not commented on what a possible deal might look like.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Where a case involves serious drugs, that involves any kind of distribution, somebody is often looking at prison time,” Jayne said. She noted the amounts of drugs involved and mitigating issues like addiction could also factor into any potential deal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the roughly 14 months after Segovia’s first court hearing, federal judges approved some travel for her, allowing her to attend family events out of state and go on vacation. She was not permitted to travel internationally, according to court documents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Segovia was fired by the police union on April 7, 2023, after an initial internal investigation by police union executives. In the wake of the drug charge revelations, union officials claimed there were no other union employees or police officers involved in the alleged drug crimes and that no one knew about Segovia’s behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Police union leaders said last year that the organization would also hire an outside investigator to look into Segovia’s alleged actions and examine the union’s own internal processes to see if there were steps that could have been taken to identify her alleged behavior sooner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>Portola Elementary School students sickened by chemicals released during a training exercise at a nearby San Bruno jail last week experienced more severe symptoms than were initially reported, with some even requiring emergency medical care, according to the school district superintendent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The chemical agents, including pepper spray and 2-chlorobenzylidene malononitrile, a common form of tear gas, were released during a crowd control and intervention training exercise on May 21 at the San Francisco County Jail in San Bruno, according to the San Francisco Sheriff’s Office. They reached Portola Elementary School, about half a mile away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Officials initially reported that 20 students and one teacher were sickened. However, nearly 30 students reported symptoms such as watery eyes, coughing, wheezing and trouble breathing at the time of the incident, San Bruno Park School District Superintendent Matthew Duffy said in a statement on Thursday. The school later determined that over the following days, students experienced more severe symptoms, including upset stomach, vomiting and rashes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“More than a week later, we still have some students who are suffering adverse effects from the exposure to the tear gas and pepper spray dispersed into the air that day,” Duffy said in a statement to KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During a two-hour town hall meeting with school officials and the sheriff’s office on Tuesday night, parents criticized a lack of communication after the chemical exposure, saying they pieced together what had happened only after multiple wrote in an online forum that their children were experiencing similar symptoms, \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/chemical-exposure-school-children-san-bruno-19484750.php\">the \u003cem>San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em> reported\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Parents also reported that the school did not take steps to clean surfaces on the exterior of the campus for two days and only did so after parents demanded it, according to the \u003cem>Chronicle\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Duffy said that after conversations with local law enforcement and environmental and academic agencies, the school washed down outside campus areas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Mateo County Supervisor David Canepa told KQED on Wednesday that the chemical agents released may have been expired.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_11981516,news_11980987,news_11967985 label='related coverage']“The chemical agent we used for the training does not have an expiration date, though we do use our oldest canisters for training purposes,” Christian Kropff, acting director of communications for the San Francisco Sheriff’s Office, said in a statement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Canepa is considering calling a hearing over the incident and the larger practice of gas-related training.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This requires transparency. This requires acknowledging that a mistake was made, but most importantly, making sure that it doesn’t happen again by putting in the correct protocols,” he told KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The school district plans to write a letter to the San Francisco Sheriff’s Office asking that all gas-related training at the jail stop immediately, Duffy said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We appreciate the time the SF Sheriff’s department has dedicated to understanding the events of that day, and we look forward to a partnership that sheds light on any inappropriate actions taken as well as needed steps to remedy the situation,” Duffy said in his statement.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Portola Elementary School students sickened by chemicals released during a training exercise at a nearby San Bruno jail last week experienced more severe symptoms than were initially reported, with some even requiring emergency medical care, according to the school district superintendent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The chemical agents, including pepper spray and 2-chlorobenzylidene malononitrile, a common form of tear gas, were released during a crowd control and intervention training exercise on May 21 at the San Francisco County Jail in San Bruno, according to the San Francisco Sheriff’s Office. They reached Portola Elementary School, about half a mile away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Officials initially reported that 20 students and one teacher were sickened. However, nearly 30 students reported symptoms such as watery eyes, coughing, wheezing and trouble breathing at the time of the incident, San Bruno Park School District Superintendent Matthew Duffy said in a statement on Thursday. The school later determined that over the following days, students experienced more severe symptoms, including upset stomach, vomiting and rashes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“More than a week later, we still have some students who are suffering adverse effects from the exposure to the tear gas and pepper spray dispersed into the air that day,” Duffy said in a statement to KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During a two-hour town hall meeting with school officials and the sheriff’s office on Tuesday night, parents criticized a lack of communication after the chemical exposure, saying they pieced together what had happened only after multiple wrote in an online forum that their children were experiencing similar symptoms, \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/chemical-exposure-school-children-san-bruno-19484750.php\">the \u003cem>San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em> reported\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Parents also reported that the school did not take steps to clean surfaces on the exterior of the campus for two days and only did so after parents demanded it, according to the \u003cem>Chronicle\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Duffy said that after conversations with local law enforcement and environmental and academic agencies, the school washed down outside campus areas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Mateo County Supervisor David Canepa told KQED on Wednesday that the chemical agents released may have been expired.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“The chemical agent we used for the training does not have an expiration date, though we do use our oldest canisters for training purposes,” Christian Kropff, acting director of communications for the San Francisco Sheriff’s Office, said in a statement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Canepa is considering calling a hearing over the incident and the larger practice of gas-related training.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This requires transparency. This requires acknowledging that a mistake was made, but most importantly, making sure that it doesn’t happen again by putting in the correct protocols,” he told KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The school district plans to write a letter to the San Francisco Sheriff’s Office asking that all gas-related training at the jail stop immediately, Duffy said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We appreciate the time the SF Sheriff’s department has dedicated to understanding the events of that day, and we look forward to a partnership that sheds light on any inappropriate actions taken as well as needed steps to remedy the situation,” Duffy said in his statement.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>San Francisco Mayor London Breed and Supervisor Hillary Ronen on Tuesday outlined the beginnings of a plan to reform the Office of Sexual Harassment and Assault Response and Prevention, or SHARP, which has \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11985525/failures-of-sf-office-on-sexual-assault-complaints-draw-scrutiny\">come under recent scrutiny\u003c/a> over its shortcomings since it was established six years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Officials have said SHARP has failed in its mandate to help survivors of sexual harassment and assault navigate San Francisco’s bureaucratic systems, to report city officers should they fail to help, and to suggest policy reforms for government agencies to better help victims.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SHARP will be folded into a new office, the San Francisco Office of Victim and Witness Rights, which aims to help victims of all types of crime. Ronen’s office plans to introduce legislation in the coming weeks that will merge the entities and “clarify [the office’s] duties and powers to ensure it is best able to meet the needs of survivors,” she told KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The new office’s inaugural director will be Ivy Lee, an attorney and former policy adviser to Breed, the mayor announced during a press conference on Tuesday at the West Portal Recreation Center.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This office will have one purpose, which is to try to make government work better for survivors,” Lee said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Most recently, Lee was Breed’s policy adviser on public safety and victims’ rights. She also served on the City College of San Francisco Board of Trustees and as a legislative aide of former Supervisors Jane Kim and Norman Yee.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ronen created SHARP in 2018 to respond to sexual assault victims who said the San Francisco Police Department did not adequately investigate their claims. The office’s deficiencies came to light in \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/sf-sharp-sex-assault-response-19429042.php\">a scathing investigation by the \u003cem>San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, which found SHARP did not propose any policy changes to the three largest city agencies that sexual assault survivors often encounter: the San Francisco Police Department, the district attorney’s office or San Francisco General Hospital.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside label=\"related coverage\" tag=\"sexual-assault\"]“Setting up SHARP was never easy. But Ivy is that person because she has the diplomacy, she has the credibility, she has the relationships,” Ronen said at Tuesday’s press conference. “That’s why I know SHARP is going to succeed like it never has before.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lee told KQED that SHARP would need a larger staff to do enough outreach to victims; right now, it has only two employees, \u003ca href=\"https://www.sharp-sf.org/our-team\">according to its website\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If we are going to have that public-facing aspect, you need to be staffed up appropriately,” Lee said. “If we want to help victims, then ask them what they need, ask them what they want, resource it, and deliver it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The creation of the Office of Victim and Witness Rights was mandated by the June 2022 voter passage of Proposition D, which was authored by Supervisor Catherine Stefani, who is running for state Assembly. Discussions of victims’ needs were at a fever pitch during 2022 as people debated the efficacy of former District Attorney Chesa Boudin, who was \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11916212/chesa-boudin-recall-sf-voters-on-track-to-oust-district-attorney\">recalled in that same election\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Surveys conducted after Proposition D’s passage showed a need for the new office to represent victims broadly, according to the mayor’s office: San Franciscans said they experienced challenges navigating the criminal legal process, had unmet emotional and mental health support needs, and lacked access to emergency financial relief after a traumatic or violent event.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SHARP is similar to the new Office of Victim and Witness Rights in purpose; only its focus is more narrowly tailored to help sexual assault survivors. In a City Hall hearing earlier this month, supervisors asked its leaders why SHARP hadn’t carried out its mission.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sheryl Evans Davis, the executive director of the Human Rights Commission, which oversees SHARP, said the office instead focused on community education and prevention.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are apologetic and regretful, but we are also committed to doing better,” Davis said in the hearing. “We’ve had some shortcomings here.”\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>San Francisco Mayor London Breed and Supervisor Hillary Ronen on Tuesday outlined the beginnings of a plan to reform the Office of Sexual Harassment and Assault Response and Prevention, or SHARP, which has \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11985525/failures-of-sf-office-on-sexual-assault-complaints-draw-scrutiny\">come under recent scrutiny\u003c/a> over its shortcomings since it was established six years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Officials have said SHARP has failed in its mandate to help survivors of sexual harassment and assault navigate San Francisco’s bureaucratic systems, to report city officers should they fail to help, and to suggest policy reforms for government agencies to better help victims.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SHARP will be folded into a new office, the San Francisco Office of Victim and Witness Rights, which aims to help victims of all types of crime. Ronen’s office plans to introduce legislation in the coming weeks that will merge the entities and “clarify [the office’s] duties and powers to ensure it is best able to meet the needs of survivors,” she told KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The new office’s inaugural director will be Ivy Lee, an attorney and former policy adviser to Breed, the mayor announced during a press conference on Tuesday at the West Portal Recreation Center.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This office will have one purpose, which is to try to make government work better for survivors,” Lee said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Most recently, Lee was Breed’s policy adviser on public safety and victims’ rights. She also served on the City College of San Francisco Board of Trustees and as a legislative aide of former Supervisors Jane Kim and Norman Yee.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ronen created SHARP in 2018 to respond to sexual assault victims who said the San Francisco Police Department did not adequately investigate their claims. The office’s deficiencies came to light in \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/sf-sharp-sex-assault-response-19429042.php\">a scathing investigation by the \u003cem>San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, which found SHARP did not propose any policy changes to the three largest city agencies that sexual assault survivors often encounter: the San Francisco Police Department, the district attorney’s office or San Francisco General Hospital.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“Setting up SHARP was never easy. But Ivy is that person because she has the diplomacy, she has the credibility, she has the relationships,” Ronen said at Tuesday’s press conference. “That’s why I know SHARP is going to succeed like it never has before.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lee told KQED that SHARP would need a larger staff to do enough outreach to victims; right now, it has only two employees, \u003ca href=\"https://www.sharp-sf.org/our-team\">according to its website\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If we are going to have that public-facing aspect, you need to be staffed up appropriately,” Lee said. “If we want to help victims, then ask them what they need, ask them what they want, resource it, and deliver it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The creation of the Office of Victim and Witness Rights was mandated by the June 2022 voter passage of Proposition D, which was authored by Supervisor Catherine Stefani, who is running for state Assembly. Discussions of victims’ needs were at a fever pitch during 2022 as people debated the efficacy of former District Attorney Chesa Boudin, who was \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11916212/chesa-boudin-recall-sf-voters-on-track-to-oust-district-attorney\">recalled in that same election\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Surveys conducted after Proposition D’s passage showed a need for the new office to represent victims broadly, according to the mayor’s office: San Franciscans said they experienced challenges navigating the criminal legal process, had unmet emotional and mental health support needs, and lacked access to emergency financial relief after a traumatic or violent event.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SHARP is similar to the new Office of Victim and Witness Rights in purpose; only its focus is more narrowly tailored to help sexual assault survivors. In a City Hall hearing earlier this month, supervisors asked its leaders why SHARP hadn’t carried out its mission.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sheryl Evans Davis, the executive director of the Human Rights Commission, which oversees SHARP, said the office instead focused on community education and prevention.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are apologetic and regretful, but we are also committed to doing better,” Davis said in the hearing. “We’ve had some shortcomings here.”\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>The man who invaded the Pelosis’ San Francisco home in an extremism-fueled attempt to kidnap the then-speaker of the House in late 2022 apologized to Paul Pelosi at a federal court hearing on Tuesday to reconsider his sentence after a court error had thrown his prison term into question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, David DePape’s approximately 90-second statement stopped short of showing remorse for his broader plan to target and capture a diverse list of public figures and political leaders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I should have left the house when I learned Nancy Pelosi wasn’t there,” DePape said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A day after DePape was \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11986718/david-depape-sentenced-to-30-years-in-federal-prison-for-attack-on-nancy-pelosis-husband\">sentenced to 30 years\u003c/a> in federal prison earlier this month, the judge presiding over the case \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11986847/federal-judge-orders-new-sentencing-hearing-for-david-depape-in-trial-over-pelosi-attack\">ordered a redo\u003c/a>, acknowledging that the court had failed to ask him if he would like to make a statement first. U.S. District Judge Jacqueline Scott Corley issued an unchanged sentence after DePape spoke Tuesday, totaling 30 years in federal prison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape had taken public transportation overnight from the East Bay to the Pelosis’ home in San Francisco’s Pacific Heights neighborhood, arriving in the early hours of Oct. 28, 2022. He broke into the home by repeatedly hitting a sliding glass door until it shattered, according to security camera video played during DePape’s federal trial that \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11967595/david-depape-found-guilty-in-paul-pelosi-hammer-attack\">ended with a guilty verdict\u003c/a> in November.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He awoke Paul Pelosi asking the now-infamous phrase, “Where’s Nancy?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Paul Pelosi managed to call 911 after DePape decided to wait with him for his wife to return home. When two officers confronted both men in the front doorway to the home, DePape suddenly turned and struck Paul Pelosi multiple times in the head with a hammer as the officers rushed in and eventually restrained him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape’s defense argued before sentencing that undiagnosed mental illness and a difficult relationship with the mother of his children had left the 44-year-old \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11966865/defense-focuses-on-conspiracy-theories-in-first-day-of-trial-over-attempted-nancy-pelosi-kidnapping\">vulnerable to conspiracy theories\u003c/a> that he consumed with increasing frequency in online videos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By the time he launched his \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11967247/david-depape-on-witness-stand-details-grand-plan-to-violently-interrogate-nancy-pelosi\">plan to kidnap then-Speaker Nancy Pelosi\u003c/a>, DePape was obsessed with exposing what he believed was a cabal of politicians promoting child abuse and corruption. Among his other targets: actor Tom Hanks, Rep. Adam Schiff, former Vice President Mike Pence and the president’s son Hunter Biden.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside label=\"related coverage\" tag=\"david-depape\"]Corley apologized to DePape at the beginning of his “reopened” sentencing hearing on Tuesday for neglecting to ask him to make a statement when she initially sentenced him on May 17.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m truly sorry for my mistake,” Corley said from the bench. But she denied a defense motion to assign DePape’s sentencing to another judge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After DePape’s statement, the judge reiterated the seriousness of his crimes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You can’t break into the speaker of the House’s home,” Corley said. “It’s hard to overstate the seriousness of that and the damage it has caused.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The sentencing do-over in federal court has affected scheduling for the beginning of a second trial for DePape on state-level charges, including attempted murder and aggravated kidnapping, which carries a potential life sentence without the possibility of parole. Opening statements in that case were initially set to begin by Tuesday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Instead, a San Francisco Superior Court judge heard this morning from DePape’s local public defenders, who argue that California-specific protections against double jeopardy \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11987752/depape-faces-new-state-charges-defense-argues-double-jeopardy\">require several charges be dismissed\u003c/a> following his federal conviction. The judge declined to rule on the motion, saying he’ll wait for local prosecutors to present their case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Alex Hall of KQED News contributed to this report.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>The man who invaded the Pelosis’ San Francisco home in an extremism-fueled attempt to kidnap the then-speaker of the House in late 2022 apologized to Paul Pelosi at a federal court hearing on Tuesday to reconsider his sentence after a court error had thrown his prison term into question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, David DePape’s approximately 90-second statement stopped short of showing remorse for his broader plan to target and capture a diverse list of public figures and political leaders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I should have left the house when I learned Nancy Pelosi wasn’t there,” DePape said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A day after DePape was \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11986718/david-depape-sentenced-to-30-years-in-federal-prison-for-attack-on-nancy-pelosis-husband\">sentenced to 30 years\u003c/a> in federal prison earlier this month, the judge presiding over the case \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11986847/federal-judge-orders-new-sentencing-hearing-for-david-depape-in-trial-over-pelosi-attack\">ordered a redo\u003c/a>, acknowledging that the court had failed to ask him if he would like to make a statement first. U.S. District Judge Jacqueline Scott Corley issued an unchanged sentence after DePape spoke Tuesday, totaling 30 years in federal prison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape had taken public transportation overnight from the East Bay to the Pelosis’ home in San Francisco’s Pacific Heights neighborhood, arriving in the early hours of Oct. 28, 2022. He broke into the home by repeatedly hitting a sliding glass door until it shattered, according to security camera video played during DePape’s federal trial that \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11967595/david-depape-found-guilty-in-paul-pelosi-hammer-attack\">ended with a guilty verdict\u003c/a> in November.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He awoke Paul Pelosi asking the now-infamous phrase, “Where’s Nancy?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Paul Pelosi managed to call 911 after DePape decided to wait with him for his wife to return home. When two officers confronted both men in the front doorway to the home, DePape suddenly turned and struck Paul Pelosi multiple times in the head with a hammer as the officers rushed in and eventually restrained him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape’s defense argued before sentencing that undiagnosed mental illness and a difficult relationship with the mother of his children had left the 44-year-old \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11966865/defense-focuses-on-conspiracy-theories-in-first-day-of-trial-over-attempted-nancy-pelosi-kidnapping\">vulnerable to conspiracy theories\u003c/a> that he consumed with increasing frequency in online videos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By the time he launched his \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11967247/david-depape-on-witness-stand-details-grand-plan-to-violently-interrogate-nancy-pelosi\">plan to kidnap then-Speaker Nancy Pelosi\u003c/a>, DePape was obsessed with exposing what he believed was a cabal of politicians promoting child abuse and corruption. Among his other targets: actor Tom Hanks, Rep. Adam Schiff, former Vice President Mike Pence and the president’s son Hunter Biden.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Corley apologized to DePape at the beginning of his “reopened” sentencing hearing on Tuesday for neglecting to ask him to make a statement when she initially sentenced him on May 17.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m truly sorry for my mistake,” Corley said from the bench. But she denied a defense motion to assign DePape’s sentencing to another judge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After DePape’s statement, the judge reiterated the seriousness of his crimes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You can’t break into the speaker of the House’s home,” Corley said. “It’s hard to overstate the seriousness of that and the damage it has caused.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The sentencing do-over in federal court has affected scheduling for the beginning of a second trial for DePape on state-level charges, including attempted murder and aggravated kidnapping, which carries a potential life sentence without the possibility of parole. Opening statements in that case were initially set to begin by Tuesday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Instead, a San Francisco Superior Court judge heard this morning from DePape’s local public defenders, who argue that California-specific protections against double jeopardy \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11987752/depape-faces-new-state-charges-defense-argues-double-jeopardy\">require several charges be dismissed\u003c/a> following his federal conviction. The judge declined to rule on the motion, saying he’ll wait for local prosecutors to present their case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Alex Hall of KQED News contributed to this report.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>The California Senate approved a bipartisan package of 15 bills on Wednesday that would increase penalties for organized crime rings, expand drug court programs and close a legal loophole to make it easier to prosecute \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/kia-hyundai-thefts-california-rob-bonta-tik-tok-challenge-210a258b5e6c032cea04917271146fe3\">auto thefts.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One proposal would require large online marketplaces — like eBay and Amazon — to verify the identities of sellers who make at least $5,000 profit in a year, an attempt to shut down an easy way to sell stolen goods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is not a game,” said Senate President Mike McGuire, a Democrat who represents the North Coast, adding that he hopes to get the bills to Gov. Gavin Newsom’s desk within weeks. “We are working together for [a] safer California, putting aside politics and making sure we do right for our communities.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It normally takes months for lawmakers to deliver bills to the governor in California, but the commitment to quick action is driven by a new get-tough-on-crime strategy in an election year that seeks to address the growing fears of voters while \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/california-retail-theft-legislation-smash-grab-4472b135a8c811cffac2d35571a99cae\">preserving progressive policies\u003c/a> designed to keep people out of prison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Large-scale thefts, in which groups of people brazenly rush into stores and take goods in plain sight, have reached a crisis level in the state, though the California Retailers Association said it’s challenging to quantify the issue because many stores don’t share their data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-sports-business-health-lifestyle-538efc664e9da0d2f0831f3f3ed9a4d7\">Bay Area\u003c/a> and Los Angeles saw a steady increase in shoplifting between 2021 and 2022, according to a study of the latest crime data by the Public Policy Institute of California. Across the state, shoplifting rates rose during the same period but were still lower than the pre-pandemic levels in 2019, while commercial burglaries and robberies have become more prevalent in urban counties, according to the study.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Assembly lawmakers are also expected to vote on their own retail theft legislation on Wednesday, including a bill authored by Assembly Speaker Robert Rivas taking aim at professional theft rings. It would expand law enforcement’s authority to combine the value of goods stolen from different victims to impose harsher penalties and arrest people for shoplifting using video footage or witness statements. The measure also would create a new crime for those who sell or return stolen goods and mandate online sellers to maintain records proving the merchandise wasn’t stolen and require some retail businesses to report stolen goods data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside label=\"Related Stories\" postID=\"news_11982393,news_11980483,news_11979533\"]The advancement of a slew of measures further cements Democratic lawmakers’ rejection of growing calls to roll back progressive policies like Proposition 47, a ballot measure approved by 60% of state voters in 2014 that reduced penalties for certain crimes, including thefts of items valued at under $950 and drug possession offenses, from felonies to misdemeanors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Money saved from having fewer people in prison, which totals $113 million this fiscal year, has gone to local programs to fight recidivism with much success, state officials and advocates said. But the proposition has made it harder to prosecute shoplifters and enabled brazen crime rings, law enforcement officials said. An effort to reform the measure failed in 2020.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As major national stores and local businesses in California say they continue to face rampant theft, a growing number of law enforcement officials and district attorneys, along with Republican and moderate Democratic lawmakers, say California needs to consider all options, including rolling back the measure. The coalition backing the initiative last month \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/california-crime-ballot-initiative-signatures-theft-fentanyl-e4863b0eb0b8808ea8f5746c60780ba7\">submitted more than 900,000 signatures\u003c/a> to put it on the November ballot. The signatures are being verified.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>The California Senate approved a bipartisan package of 15 bills on Wednesday that would increase penalties for organized crime rings, expand drug court programs and close a legal loophole to make it easier to prosecute \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/kia-hyundai-thefts-california-rob-bonta-tik-tok-challenge-210a258b5e6c032cea04917271146fe3\">auto thefts.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One proposal would require large online marketplaces — like eBay and Amazon — to verify the identities of sellers who make at least $5,000 profit in a year, an attempt to shut down an easy way to sell stolen goods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is not a game,” said Senate President Mike McGuire, a Democrat who represents the North Coast, adding that he hopes to get the bills to Gov. Gavin Newsom’s desk within weeks. “We are working together for [a] safer California, putting aside politics and making sure we do right for our communities.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It normally takes months for lawmakers to deliver bills to the governor in California, but the commitment to quick action is driven by a new get-tough-on-crime strategy in an election year that seeks to address the growing fears of voters while \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/california-retail-theft-legislation-smash-grab-4472b135a8c811cffac2d35571a99cae\">preserving progressive policies\u003c/a> designed to keep people out of prison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Large-scale thefts, in which groups of people brazenly rush into stores and take goods in plain sight, have reached a crisis level in the state, though the California Retailers Association said it’s challenging to quantify the issue because many stores don’t share their data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-sports-business-health-lifestyle-538efc664e9da0d2f0831f3f3ed9a4d7\">Bay Area\u003c/a> and Los Angeles saw a steady increase in shoplifting between 2021 and 2022, according to a study of the latest crime data by the Public Policy Institute of California. Across the state, shoplifting rates rose during the same period but were still lower than the pre-pandemic levels in 2019, while commercial burglaries and robberies have become more prevalent in urban counties, according to the study.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Assembly lawmakers are also expected to vote on their own retail theft legislation on Wednesday, including a bill authored by Assembly Speaker Robert Rivas taking aim at professional theft rings. It would expand law enforcement’s authority to combine the value of goods stolen from different victims to impose harsher penalties and arrest people for shoplifting using video footage or witness statements. The measure also would create a new crime for those who sell or return stolen goods and mandate online sellers to maintain records proving the merchandise wasn’t stolen and require some retail businesses to report stolen goods data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>The advancement of a slew of measures further cements Democratic lawmakers’ rejection of growing calls to roll back progressive policies like Proposition 47, a ballot measure approved by 60% of state voters in 2014 that reduced penalties for certain crimes, including thefts of items valued at under $950 and drug possession offenses, from felonies to misdemeanors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Money saved from having fewer people in prison, which totals $113 million this fiscal year, has gone to local programs to fight recidivism with much success, state officials and advocates said. But the proposition has made it harder to prosecute shoplifters and enabled brazen crime rings, law enforcement officials said. An effort to reform the measure failed in 2020.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As major national stores and local businesses in California say they continue to face rampant theft, a growing number of law enforcement officials and district attorneys, along with Republican and moderate Democratic lawmakers, say California needs to consider all options, including rolling back the measure. The coalition backing the initiative last month \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/california-crime-ballot-initiative-signatures-theft-fentanyl-e4863b0eb0b8808ea8f5746c60780ba7\">submitted more than 900,000 signatures\u003c/a> to put it on the November ballot. The signatures are being verified.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Trial for Class Action Lawsuit Over Troubled Women’s Prison Slated for June 2025",
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"content": "\u003cp>The trial for a class action lawsuit against the Federal Bureau of Prisons over sexual assault and retaliation at an \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11978712/infamous-east-bay-womens-prison-hit-with-12-additional-sexual-assault-lawsuits\">East Bay federal women’s prison\u003c/a> is slated to start in June of next year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The brief virtual court hearing comes during a turbulent time for the prison embattled in sexual assault charges. It is the first public hearing since federal officials \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11982973/feds-abruptly-close-east-bay-womens-prison-following-sexual-abuse-scandals\">abruptly closed Federal Correctional Institution, Dublin\u003c/a>, last month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On Wednesday, attorneys for both sides outlined the next steps and a timeline for the class action lawsuit filed on behalf of women formerly incarcerated at the prison last August.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What’s clear coming out of the case management conference today is that the case has not and will not end with the closure of Dublin, and we will continue to fight on,” said Amaris Montes, an attorney with Rights Behind Bars, representing plaintiffs. “We know that the problems exist outside of the physical walls of Dublin, and the same things are happening at other BOP facilities.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Attorneys for both sides discussed possible settlement solutions for the lawsuit on Tuesday; however, an offer still needs to be made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are seeking real, lasting changes in the BOP system, including medical and mental health care that’s meaningful, so we don’t plan to settle until we have these changes,” Montes said in a press conference shortly following the hearing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Allegations of sexual abuse at FCI Dublin date back decades, including a major settlement case plaintiffs won in the 1990s. The most recent series of scandals first started unraveling following an investigation by The Associated Press in 2021. It revealed a culture of abuse and cover-ups that had persisted for years at the low-security federal women’s prison, which had more than 650 inmates before shuttering.[aside postID=news_11980960 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/03/GettyImages-1181905632-1020x680.jpg']Eight former FCI Dublin correctional officers, including the former warden and chaplain, have been convicted and charged and seven have been sentenced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since 2021, formerly incarcerated at the Federal Correctional Institution, Dublin, have filed nearly 60 lawsuits alleging a range of sexual harassment violations and retaliation by officers. That includes the class action lawsuit, which started public proceedings on Wednesday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, U.S. District Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11982014/judge-chooses-top-pick-for-special-master-to-oversee-womens-prison-following-rampant-abuse\">ordered a special master\u003c/a> to oversee mandatory changes at the prison following years of sexual assault allegations and criminal charges against eight officers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Shortly after, Wendy Still was appointed to the position; however, the Biden administration announced that the facility would shut down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Women who were housed at the facility have since transferred across the country to a small handful of other women’s prisons. Some women have since alleged mistreatment and retaliation during the relocation process and in their new facilities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to a recent court order, Still will continue in her position even though the prison has closed. She will report on conditions at the prison before and during the transfer process and monitor how women are doing at the facilities they were transferred to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are hearing egregious reports of abuse and neglect, conditions of housing that’s dangerous, overcrowding and understaffing and medical needs that aren’t being addressed,” said Erin Neff, an advocate with California Coalition for Women Prisoners. “I am very encouraged by Gonzalez Rogers’ decision to continue the special master’s role for the 600 individuals who are now across the country.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gonzalez Rogers responded by calling the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11985645/closure-of-california-federal-prison-was-poorly-planned-judge-says-ordering-further-monitoring\">closure and transfer process “ill-conceived”\u003c/a> and ordered close monitoring and care of women at their new facilities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People are vulnerable to retaliation. People still face unconstitutional conditions of confinement, a lack of medical care and so much more,” Montes said. “This is clear; this is a result of not just individual officers who are committing abuses, but it’s an issue of BOP-wide policies that have continued to allow people to suffer.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>The trial for a class action lawsuit against the Federal Bureau of Prisons over sexual assault and retaliation at an \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11978712/infamous-east-bay-womens-prison-hit-with-12-additional-sexual-assault-lawsuits\">East Bay federal women’s prison\u003c/a> is slated to start in June of next year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The brief virtual court hearing comes during a turbulent time for the prison embattled in sexual assault charges. It is the first public hearing since federal officials \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11982973/feds-abruptly-close-east-bay-womens-prison-following-sexual-abuse-scandals\">abruptly closed Federal Correctional Institution, Dublin\u003c/a>, last month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On Wednesday, attorneys for both sides outlined the next steps and a timeline for the class action lawsuit filed on behalf of women formerly incarcerated at the prison last August.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What’s clear coming out of the case management conference today is that the case has not and will not end with the closure of Dublin, and we will continue to fight on,” said Amaris Montes, an attorney with Rights Behind Bars, representing plaintiffs. “We know that the problems exist outside of the physical walls of Dublin, and the same things are happening at other BOP facilities.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Attorneys for both sides discussed possible settlement solutions for the lawsuit on Tuesday; however, an offer still needs to be made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are seeking real, lasting changes in the BOP system, including medical and mental health care that’s meaningful, so we don’t plan to settle until we have these changes,” Montes said in a press conference shortly following the hearing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Allegations of sexual abuse at FCI Dublin date back decades, including a major settlement case plaintiffs won in the 1990s. The most recent series of scandals first started unraveling following an investigation by The Associated Press in 2021. It revealed a culture of abuse and cover-ups that had persisted for years at the low-security federal women’s prison, which had more than 650 inmates before shuttering.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Eight former FCI Dublin correctional officers, including the former warden and chaplain, have been convicted and charged and seven have been sentenced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since 2021, formerly incarcerated at the Federal Correctional Institution, Dublin, have filed nearly 60 lawsuits alleging a range of sexual harassment violations and retaliation by officers. That includes the class action lawsuit, which started public proceedings on Wednesday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, U.S. District Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11982014/judge-chooses-top-pick-for-special-master-to-oversee-womens-prison-following-rampant-abuse\">ordered a special master\u003c/a> to oversee mandatory changes at the prison following years of sexual assault allegations and criminal charges against eight officers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Shortly after, Wendy Still was appointed to the position; however, the Biden administration announced that the facility would shut down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Women who were housed at the facility have since transferred across the country to a small handful of other women’s prisons. Some women have since alleged mistreatment and retaliation during the relocation process and in their new facilities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to a recent court order, Still will continue in her position even though the prison has closed. She will report on conditions at the prison before and during the transfer process and monitor how women are doing at the facilities they were transferred to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are hearing egregious reports of abuse and neglect, conditions of housing that’s dangerous, overcrowding and understaffing and medical needs that aren’t being addressed,” said Erin Neff, an advocate with California Coalition for Women Prisoners. “I am very encouraged by Gonzalez Rogers’ decision to continue the special master’s role for the 600 individuals who are now across the country.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gonzalez Rogers responded by calling the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11985645/closure-of-california-federal-prison-was-poorly-planned-judge-says-ordering-further-monitoring\">closure and transfer process “ill-conceived”\u003c/a> and ordered close monitoring and care of women at their new facilities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People are vulnerable to retaliation. People still face unconstitutional conditions of confinement, a lack of medical care and so much more,” Montes said. “This is clear; this is a result of not just individual officers who are committing abuses, but it’s an issue of BOP-wide policies that have continued to allow people to suffer.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "BONUS: The Whistleblower Playbook | S2: New Folsom",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sukey sits down with Mary Inman and Poppy Alexander, two whistleblower attorneys who talk about the cost of speaking up, and unpack the playbook that employers use to keep people quiet. They also discuss a shift in thinking that can protect both whistleblowers and their organizations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC4625892902\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mental health resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you are currently in crisis, you can dial 988 [U.S.] to reach the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SAMHSA National Help Line\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://988lifeline.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.nami.org/help\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness) Helpline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.hhs.gov/programs/prevention-and-wellness/mental-health-substance-abuse/index.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">US Health and Human Services\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://warmline.org/warmdir.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Warmline Directory\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Whistleblower resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.whistleblower.law/\">Whistleblower Partners, LLP\u003c/a> (where Mary and Poppy are partners)\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"http://www.thelamplighterproject.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Lamplighter Project\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://thesignalsnetwork.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Signals Network\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://empowr.us/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">EMPOWR\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.whistleblowersofamerica.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whistleblowers of America\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://whistleblower.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Government Accountability Project\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.whistleblowers.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">National Whistleblower Center\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://whistlebloweraid.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whistleblower Aid\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Mary Inman was profiled in the New Yorker piece, \u003ca href=\"https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/02/04/the-personal-toll-of-whistle-blowing\">“The Personal Toll of Whistleblowing.”\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://journalism.berkeley.edu/programs/mj/investigative-reporting/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Investigative Reporting Program\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> at UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism was a key partner in making Season 2 of On Our Watch.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The records obtained for this project are part of the\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://projects.scpr.org/california-reporting-project/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> California Reporting Project\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a coalition of news organizations in California. If you have tips or feedback about this series please reach out to us at \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"mailto:onourwatch@kqed.org\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">onourwatch@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before we start, I just wanted to give you a heads up that this episode references suicide. If you or someone you know needs support, we’ve got links to resources in the episode description. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, listeners, it’s Sukey. We’re back. Over the next few weeks, we’re going to be bringing you some brand new bonus episodes. We’re going to dip into some of the stories that didn’t make it in the podcast, and talk to some experts to help us understand Correctional Officer Valentino Rodriguez and Sergeant Kevin Steele in a broader light. We’re starting off this week with a really interesting conversation about what it means to be a whistleblower. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When my colleague Julie first spoke to Val Senior about his son and his friend, Sergeant Kevin Steele, he was hesitant to call them whistleblowers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That name doesn’t do justice to people that have come forward, for me. When we were kids, being a whistleblower is tattletale. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, see I think of it as heroic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The term and its many fraught interpretations are woven throughout our story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dion Green: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I’m a whistleblower rat for ex- exposing this ongoing corruption of staff and that I need to be taken out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sgt. Kevin Steele: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It can take on a bad connotation sometimes, but it is, again, a government program intended to expose corruption. That’s what it’s designed for. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tinkerbell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I still haven’t been confirmed with whistleblower status, so that’s another reason why I’m a little still… I mean, I would venture to say that hopefully, the legal system would protect me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so we wanted to spend some time talking to two people who can help us understand this term and the challenges of coming forward. Thank you both so much for coming in. Could we just start off by having you each introduce yourselves? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sure. My name’s Mary Inman. I’m a partner at the law firm Whistleblower Partners, and I’m in the San Francisco office, and we specialize in representing whistleblowers under the various U.S. whistleblower reward programs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I am Poppy Alexander. I am Mary’s partner here at Whistleblower Partners in the San Francisco office. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We wanted to talk to Mary and Poppy to better understand the journey that Officer Valentino Rodriguez and Sergeant Kevin Steele went through to become whistleblowers, and to see if they had any solutions for how to better support people like them in the future. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, yeah, these were two correctional officers. Well, one was a correctional officer, the other was a correctional sergeant, who both took it upon themselves to report the misconduct of their fellow officers, which is, you know, a very difficult thing to do. And, you know, had pretty serious consequences because of it. And I was just wondering, Mary, if you can put their stories in a broader context, you know, how common are experiences like theirs, among whistleblowers that you speak to or that you have, you know, studied? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Unfortunately, the experiences that both Valentino and Sergeant Steele had are incredibly common. There seems to be a playbook that organizations — whether they’re private or public — have when someone blows the whistle. It’s often people reverting to what I call a ‘medieval mindset,’ where the playbook says we shoot the messenger to divert attention from the message. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that certainly seems very much to be the case that happened here. But it happens regardless of industry or sector. Poppy and I have represented whistleblowers in the tech sector, in health care, in transportation, in finance, and it’s very similar. When you would hope that what a whistleblower does is just shine a light on a fraud for people to look at it or wrongdoing for people to examine it is incredibly demoralizing to a whistleblower that the spotlight gets moved away from that and shown solidly on them. And that can be incredibly disorienting and incredibly demoralizing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mary is absolutely right. We see this all the time in every industry. But I do think that there’s something special about the prison context here. We’re talking about folks who are literally locked up, whether you are a guard or you’re a prisoner, you’re in the same space. You’re sort of stuck together. That is inevitably going to lead to a different mentality that is very much about, you know, circling up, guarding the wagons. That is more extreme even than what we see in sort of the normal context as well. There is a real incentive in these kinds of spaces to guard the institution, to shoot the messenger, to keep the doors closed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s all these perceptions from very- when we’re a very young age that, you know, you don’t rat out or you don’t tattle. That is just magnified a thousand fold when you enter the scenario of military or security or in this case, prison guards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And peace officers as well, kind of have, you know, a unique bind or perhaps a unique bind, which is that they’re often both required by policy to report misconduct and not insulated from retaliation if they do so. And if they end up stepping outside the chain of command to report misconduct, you know, to the media, for example, they can get disciplined for sharing confidential information. And I think it also just makes it so difficult for peace officers, in particular, to know what the right thing to do is, you know, they’re they’re bound by all these conflicting rules. And then where does their own moral compass come into things? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I totally agree, and I think, as you were pointing out, Sukey, the the fact that there can be all of these competing obligations that you have… One of the things that can be most difficult is what was present here — is that the wrongdoing that both Valentino and Sergeant Steele were trying to expose went to the very top. And so it can be- it feels like it’s, it’s futile in a way to expose that internally when you’re exposing it to the very chain of command that’s engaged in the wrongdoing. I do understand that, you know, the Office of Internal Affairs is supposed to be, you know, playing a particular ro- role, but it’s incredibly fraught when the fraud has really been designed, and the architects of the fraud are the people who really control your fate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as you’re saying, you know, if the whistleblower is exposed internally, that can create incredible psychological and emotional pressures on them. And I think we saw that with both Sergeant Kevin Steele and Valentino Rodriguez, in that kind of isolation and ostracization that they experienced. There are also a number of other officers, you know, who have died by suicide after reporting misconduct and feeling like everyone has turned against them, and I think also that their efforts aren’t aren’t- don’t amount to anything. So that frustration that, ‘I did risk so much, I did put my ass on the line to expose the misconduct. And still there’s nothing being done.’ I know you have, you know, this is an area that’s near and dear to your work, Mary. Can you talk a little bit about the psychosocial impacts of whistleblowing and, you know, these very, very serious, you know, deadly consequences? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. I mean, I think we’ve seen this, you’re alluding to, unfortunately, I’ve had the great tragedy of losing two clients in my life. And one of them, The New Yorker did an article talking about the personal toll of whistleblowing. But we’ve also seen it very recently with John Barnett, who’s the whistleblower in the, in the, in the Boeing case, who it appears that he took his life. There’s still, you know, I think some questions about that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think one of the hardest pieces, and where I think we would all be really well served, is creating a level of psychosocial support, not just for whistleblowers, which I think is vital, but also for the first responders, for the people who deal with whistleblowers — for lawyers like myself. I learned the hard way on having to know more about resources that whistleblowers need. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the best things that anyone can do when they’re first dealing with a whistleblower, whether it’s someone in H.R., or it’s the lawyers who they ultimately come to, or even the media, is to say, ‘I believe you.’ Right? Because that’s the issue, is that they have been in this unreality where, you know, they have been made the problem, and the problem they’re seeking to expose has been swept under the rug. So their whole world has been turned upside down and they’ve lost their support network. So everyone at work now knows that they are, you know, they’re radioactive. ‘Don’t do what you know, Valentino did because it’s not it’s not going to inure to your benefit.’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So all of a sudden you’re- you’re isolated. You’ve lost your support network. Then you magnify this by going at home and you’ve lost your job, and your spouse is now or your significant other is incredibly angry, and resentful. So you, you know, the walls do start to feel like they’re closing in. And that’s why I think society we’re at a point — we need whistleblowers so much. They’re often I, I like to say the ‘Fifth Estate.’ They’re they’re a lot of the folks who are actually exposing and holding people to account, but yet we don’t have the even most basic, psycho- psychosocial supports for these people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it feels like this kind of vicious cycle as well, too, that, you know, then because you’re under the psychological pressure and you, you know, begin to feel gaslit or what have you or you do take your life, then we see these cases where the employer or the organization can point at them and say, ‘Look, see, we don’t have to believe what they said. They were the ones having trouble. They were the one, you know, they were in mental distress. They were crazy.’ And so discount their reports even after, you know, their deaths. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, first of all, that’s not good logic. And secondly, I hope that the folks, the other folks that that message is directed to, which, of course, is the other employees can recognize how circular that logic is and how self-serving, and how it simply doesn’t reflect the truth. And again, that’s why it’s so important that those whistleblowers who are in a position to do so can be public and can come forward and say, ‘Look: I did this. I survived, and this is what the process looks like.’ No one sets out to be a whistleblower. No one. You know, this is not anyone’s life goal or career aspiration. It happens. You’re forced into it for all sorts of different reasons. And knowing that people have come before and have made it through to the other side is really important. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Totally agree. And I think one of the one of the hardest things for whistleblowers that results in these, very desperate situations in terms of whistleblowers taking their own lives, I think, is that whistleblowers start out not thinking that they’re whistleblowers at all. They’re just trying to expose wrongdoing. And then the world gets turned upside down and the wrongdoing is ignored and the spotlight gets turned on them, that they’re the problem. What makes it so difficult is that I think they have an abiding sense of, ‘There’s an injustice, there’s something wrong, and it hasn’t been addressed. And yet all of this energy, like enormous amounts of energy and resources which could have been used to address the problem, are now being focused on me as the problem.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think those are just- it’s so hard to reconcile that. And I think one of the best services that Poppy and I can offer is to describe the playbook to the whistleblower and say, ‘If you talk to me early on, I’m going to spell out for you how this is going to go.’ And then at least it takes some of the sting out of it. And it’s, it’s really quite ironic. Our clients are like, ‘You are completely prescient. Do you have a crystal ball? Like, how did you know this was going to happen?’ And we just said, unfortunately, this is just the path. And so if you know that that’s going to happen and you can try and plan for it, it does help whistleblowers to at least absorb those blows. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think that, like you’re talking about the psychological journey of the whistleblower. And I think, you know, especially for Sergeant Kevin Steele, he… he really did you kind of see this arc of his, you know, disillusionment with his institution and that the place that he begins in is one of such faith in these, you know, pillars that he believed in and that were of, you know, fairness and accountability. And, you know, he’s just so kind of by the book, dude. And the betrayal that he experienced when he did try to report misconduct and having that not be taken seriously was incredibly crushing to him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. I mean, I think with Sergeant Steele, it’s a particularly acute scenario because in addition to him feeling, you know, having the expectation that all of these policies and, you know, oaths that they took would be taken seriously. And to have the scales fall from your eyes is, you know, it’s a very disillusioning process. But I think what magnified it for him and amplified it, is that he became close with Valentino’s father and he was really traumatized by Valentino’s death, and this question of whether or not this was, you know, a suspicious death. Whether he died under particular circumstances. So I think there was also a level of guilt, because Valentino was on his team and someone that he should protect. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is absolutely the same thing we see. I- we see this day in and day out with whistleblowers in terms of the journeys that they have. And I think that a lot of us have observed this that there’s sort of this culture, at least, at least in the United States, as to whistleblowing that they’re either heroes or villains. And I think a lot of us believe that one of the best things, psychologically, for whistleblowers is if we could normalize it. They don’t want to be either. And I think that that is probably one of the things that they get caught up in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is in this, in this sort of dilemma. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We saw with the MeToo movement that a lot of this is- the psychological journey can also involve gaslighting and starting to doubt yourself. I think that’s what we see with Sergeant Steele is that he believed all of these things to be true. And then his reality started to change. And then that really makes you start to doubt yourself. And, and the circling the wagons phenomenon that Poppy talked about just makes this worse, is that everybody else is trying to suggest that this is not how it happened. And you start to then that makes even more self-doubt, which can be a very vicious cycle. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s interesting. There’s some studies that talk a lot about what happens to whistleblowers. Because of the pressures they lose their friends, they lose their social network. And so the New England Journal of Medicine did a study on pharmaceutical whistleblowers who expose the pharmaceutical industry. You know, they’re seeing higher incidences of divorce, of depression, anxiety, substance abuse. I think these are all outward indicators of tools that- and the occasion of what happens when, you know, you expose something and then, instead of it being corrected, it gets covered up. And then you yourself, as the whistleblower, often become persona non grata. The retaliation is done by your employer as a way to send a signal to other whistleblowers, ‘You shouldn’t do this.’ So your sort of almost made, basically made an example of. So I think all of these are, you know, is an environment that’s just incredibly difficult. And it adds insult to injury. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You mentioned the MeToo movement, and I think one of the things that we have found in our reporting as well, is how, you know, discrimination, misogyny, racism also become tools to enforce the code of silence and to keep people from speaking up. I mean, I know as a woman, that feeling of like, oh, I’ve got to be cool to get along. You know, I’m not going to like, rock the boat or push back if somebody makes an inappropriate comment — you know, taken to a much more serious level, obviously, with Valentino Rodriguez. But does that translate to other contexts outside the prison as well? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely. Unfortunately, we see this a lot. It is rarer than any of us would like to see female whistleblowers, to see whistleblowers of color. And so much of that has to do with that mentality you just mentioned. That, you know, ‘we’re trained to get along,’ and we’re trained that ‘to get along’ means to value the traditional workplace culture of white cis men. And that obviously is amplified in the prison context. But that’s true everywhere. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I- this is my completely uneducated guess, but I do feel like we’re starting to see a shift there. And certainly starting to see more female whistleblowers just coming in the door. And I do wonder how much of that is the MeToo movement. I wonder how much of that is people just being fed up with that attitude. But it still is very much a problem. And, you know, as Mary said, we have this tradition of we either see whistleblowers as heroes or villains, but either way, it’s oftentimes this sort of mentality of, you know, the single man standing alone on the hilltop shouting, you know, shouting the truth. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s not true. Women have been whistleblowers forever. People of color have been whistleblowers forever. They have found other ways to make sure that that information gets out. You know, some have been very public about it. Erin Brockovich is, you know, maybe the quintessential example on some level. But, and other people do it in different ways. They help their community. They make sure that the information gets out via a whisper network, what have you. There’s all sorts of strategies to make sure that the truth gets told. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But when it comes to this sort of ‘in-group outgroup mentality’ of making sure that you were sort of getting along in a confined space, whether that’s a workplace, whether that’s a prison, whether that’s whatever it might be, there certainly are added incentives to put your head down, do your work, ignore what is oftentimes right in front of your face as a wrong. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I agree, the power differential is something that is really significant, right? In terms of you see, a lot of studies have shown that women and people of color are more likely to leave an organization than to report. And I do think that MeToo started to show us a way that, if we can create a solidarity among whistleblowers, I think that’s one of the strongest way we can encourage, reporting. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I would love to see us have more avenues to find ways to bring whistleblowers together. So it isn’t, just that lone wolf as Poppy said. But that there are multiple people linking arms, saying that this happened to them as well. And then you really do have to pay, give it more credence than if it’s just one sole person. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Ad break]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think within, you know, the California Department of Corrections and going back to the policy of their, you know, ban on the code of silence, there’s been an unintended consequence, at least according — or maybe it’s intended, I don’t know — but at least according to the correctional officers that we spoke to, which is that if you don’t report right away, you can then get in trouble when you report later. Like, if you see an incident happen, excessive use of force, maybe you’re fearful to come forward initially, and then you- you gather that internal fortitude and you decide to make that report, you can often then get disciplined for, you know, holding to the code of silence thus far. And it creates a disincentive to come forward rather than, you know, the stated purpose of this policy, which is to create an incentive to come forward. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s such a challenge. You know, we have clients who come forward sometimes and tell us about information that’s many, many years old. And there’s lots of reasons why they might suddenly wake up one day and say, ‘Now’s the time. I have to tell someone.’ Of course, it’s probably better in terms of trying to solve problems, when people come to us with fresh information, we can usually do more with it. But that doesn’t mean that that’s a less valid whistleblower simply because they waited. It usually means that there’s something else going on in their lives that prevented them from coming forward first. And we need to recognize that in how we design our policies and how we think through this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, we’ve heard from a number of correctional officers since the podcast came out saying that just hearing these stories made them feel like, you know, they might have an opportunity to speak up. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And that’s, you know, really heartening, obviously, in terms of just the rewarding work of getting these voices out into the world. But I’ve also talked to correctional officers who have, you know, tried to get whistleblower protections, and often they want to do it before they blow the whistle. They want to know, like, ‘Oh, I’m going to be protected ahead of time. Like, where do I go to, you know, get my whistleblower card or whatever.’ \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And, you know, from my understanding, it really doesn’t work like that. Like it’s very based on, you know, retroactive retaliation. And if you can prove that you were retaliated against, maybe you can get some retroactive protection. But can either of you address that issue? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think there really, it can be very difficult to prove retaliation. Sort of the statistics of the ability of someone to succeed in a retaliation claim in the United States are very dire. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They’re not great. And I think part of that is because it’s very difficult to prove that you were retaliated against for speaking up as compared to some- any other reason that someone can pretextual come up with, right? Like, oh, you’re chronically late, even though your chronic lateness was something that everyone tolerated for years. But until you spoke up, then all of a sudden that becomes a problem. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is there something that needs to change in the law to make that an easier argument to make, or to, you know, the lower the standard of proof that you have to reach in order to prove that retaliation happened? What are some fixes that you see for that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, it’s interesting, in Europe there’s now something called the European Whistleblowing Directive. And one of the changes that they made that I would love to see being made across all of the various retaliation protections laws, is this burden- shifting the burden of proof. That the burden initially, and for too long, remains on the plaintiff. To have to prove that, you know, they were retaliated against because they spoke up. And if we can reverse- shift that burden of proof and put it on the employer, actually, to prove that, you know, they did do it for a legitimate reason, I think that would be one concrete way that we could improve the odds that people could succeed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the, you know, looking domestically, I think the SEC also provides a really excellent model here where the SEC takes very seriously any accusations of retaliation related to someone who has reported securities fraud to the, to the agency. And they take it very seriously and they, you know, will tell employers at every opportunity that they take it very seriously. And that public messaging has been extremely important and protective. And then oftentimes it then puts whistleblowers in the somewhat uncomfortable position of having to decide where they’re going to publicly declare to the company that they, in fact, did report to the SEC, because then that does provide them some level of protection. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That only applies to some small subset of the whistle blowing world. But there’s no reason that has to be true. There’s lots of other ways to try to build off of that same level of protection that we see. There’s other agencies that are involved and whistle-blowing in all sorts of forms, we have- you know, OSHA is involved in many of these cases. There’s- we have lots of agencies here. So I think there’s lots of other strategies to try to build in more of a protection. But it does. It always starts with culture. Right? And that’s culture both from the government side of telling companies and telling organizations what’s important. And then of course, it starts on the company side. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. I think the- the long tail of fear that correctional officers experience after- even after they leave… Like, they’ve retired for years, but they’re still afraid to speak up. They don’t know if their pension can be taken away. They don’t know what power the institution still has over them. There’s also, you know, obviously just their their friendship groups and their culture that they’re afraid of losing. But there’s just this very long tail of oppression, I would say, that they experience psychologically and that it’s not entirely dissipated when they leave the prison at all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely. And you know, so, so many times prisons, right, are and very small towns. And so even if you’re not working at the prison, you’re still- most other people in the town are going to be. And that then means there’s really no way to sort of escape that. But of course, you shouldn’t have to. You shouldn’t have to lose all your friends and community simply because you’re willing to take a stand and tell the truth. That should never be a consequence of telling the truth. And- but of course it acts as a disincentive for coming forward, for speaking out against the pack, for what have you, which can only be remedied by changing the culture, can only be remedied by encouraging people to see that as a good. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And Sukey, you’re right that the retaliation doesn’t stop when they leave the prison. And there’s sort of a long tail of retaliation, right? Which is often when you go to that next job, unfortunately that next employer will often call for a recommendation or a reference to your existing employer. And, we often see that even if they’re not doing it directly, there’s word of mouth that, ‘You don’t want this person. This is, this person is disloyal. They, you know, they’ve exposed us and created all this difficulty. They’re a troublemaker and you shouldn’t hire them.’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so that certainly, you know, in the case of my whistleblower client that was featured in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New Yorker\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, that was really ultimately his undoing, right? Is that he ended up, because he couldn’t leave the, the part of Florida where he was practicing. He would get interviews and get to a certain place, and then in, in getting his next job position. And when it got to that reference point and they’d say like, ‘Oh, he seems great.’ And you get all these signals. And then all of a sudden when it came to closing the deal, they would never hire him. So that ends up in you draining your 401K, you now don’t have, you know, you’re no longer gainfully employed, and now you’re blocklisted or blacklisted. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think that is one of the other problems that just makes it, again, incredibly insidious that… I always talk about there’s this ‘Scarlet W’ on your chest that’s emblazoned. And that you may want to put it down, you may even want to put down the mantle of whistleblower, but often you’re not allowed to. And that is a cross that you are bearing again and again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, one of the things that really struck me just doing this reporting is the disconnect between the formal institutional stance, which says, you know, ‘The code of silence is banned. And we want, you know, we take all reports of employee misconduct very seriously, and we want people to come forward.’ And then that what actually happens in response to that. And I’m just wondering if either of you can speak to… is there a policy change that can fix this? Or because there is this disconnect already between policy and action, you know, do we need a different intervention? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a cultural problem much more than a policy problem. Though the policies obviously are then tied together because if you know that the company’s policy is that they’re going to, you know, they’re going to take every whistleblower complaint with this huge grain of salt, they’re not going to start from the presumption that the whistleblower is correct. They’re not going to start from the presumption, which is usually true, that the whistleblower is reporting this because they love the company or the organization or, you know, the group. They’re doing it out of love. They’re doing it because they want it to be better. They’ve, you know, they found a problem and they want to fix the problem, and they want to do it before someone from the outside finds out about the problem. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That so often is what the energy is that our clients bring when they’re coming forward. And what they’re met with is this culture of silence there. You know, you talk into a black box, you never hear what happens again. All too often, our clients say to us that we are the first person to ever listen to them about what they’re talking about. And that’s sad because we are never someone’s first call. We really aren’t. They’re always trying to get some change to happen before they resort to calling a whistleblower attorney — as as they should be, quite honestly. And if smart organizations and smart companies would just listen to their whistleblowers, they would put us out of a job. But that’s good. That would be better for everybody. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I agree, and there’s some really great empirical data and research coming out of George Washington University and the University of Utah that really reinforces this idea that whistleblowers are actually your best risk management tool. They’re the canaries in the coal mine that actually help you see a problem before we’re all overtaken by noxious fumes. And this research really basically underscores that companies that actually see whistleblowers in this way as, as, you know, people who can help mitigate risks and deal with problems before they metastasize into something like a big public relations scandal… If you use them in this way, it actually allows companies to be more profitable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think one of the biggest things that needs to happen is just an education on who whistleblowers really are. As Poppy said, whistleblowers are- not only are they not disloyal, they are your \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">most\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> loyal employees because it takes a lot of intestinal fortitude to be the type of employee who is going to tell you the hard truths at considerable potential risk to themselves. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for coming into the studio and just lending your expertise and your empathy to this conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s been a real pleasure to be on this podcast. It’s a real testament that the only way we’re going to get change is, is to, you know, point to really great investigative journalists like this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely. It’s, it’s a horrible topic, but it brings great joy to talk about it because it’s so important and so misunderstood, quite honestly, I think, so much about the process of whistleblowing. And so every opportunity to be able to talk about it and really go in depth as you are in this podcast series is just invaluable. And it’s invaluable for the future whistleblowers, for the next person who finds themself in an uncomfortable situation where they really need to speak up and they don’t know what it means and they don’t know how. You know, the education of learning what that process looks like is something we all need to work on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, that was Poppy Alexander and Mary Inman. They are also working right now with federal legislators to try and introduce a bill that would provide mental health support for whistleblowers. We have a link to Mary and Poppy’s website in our episode description, along with other resources for whistleblowers. Please continue to send tips or feedback about the series to On Our Watch at K-Q-E-D dot O-R-G. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was hosted by me, Sukey Lewis. It was edited by Jen Chien, who is also KQED’s Director of Podcasts. It was produced, scored, and cut by Chris Egusa. Final mixing by Christopher Beale. Original music by Ramtin Arablouei, including our theme song. Additional music from APM Music and Audio Network. Funding for On Our Watch is provided in part by Arnold Ventures and the California Endowment. Thank you to Katie Sprenger, our Podcast Operations Manager, our Managing Editor of News and Enterprise, Otis, R. Taylor, Jr., Ethan Toven-Lindsay, our Vice President of News, and KQED Chief Content Officer Holly Kernan. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And thanks to all of you for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sukey sits down with Mary Inman and Poppy Alexander, two whistleblower attorneys who talk about the cost of speaking up, and unpack the playbook that employers use to keep people quiet. They also discuss a shift in thinking that can protect both whistleblowers and their organizations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC4625892902\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mental health resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you are currently in crisis, you can dial 988 [U.S.] to reach the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SAMHSA National Help Line\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://988lifeline.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.nami.org/help\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness) Helpline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.hhs.gov/programs/prevention-and-wellness/mental-health-substance-abuse/index.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">US Health and Human Services\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://warmline.org/warmdir.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Warmline Directory\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Whistleblower resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.whistleblower.law/\">Whistleblower Partners, LLP\u003c/a> (where Mary and Poppy are partners)\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"http://www.thelamplighterproject.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Lamplighter Project\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://thesignalsnetwork.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Signals Network\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://empowr.us/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">EMPOWR\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.whistleblowersofamerica.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whistleblowers of America\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://whistleblower.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Government Accountability Project\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.whistleblowers.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">National Whistleblower Center\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://whistlebloweraid.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whistleblower Aid\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Mary Inman was profiled in the New Yorker piece, \u003ca href=\"https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/02/04/the-personal-toll-of-whistle-blowing\">“The Personal Toll of Whistleblowing.”\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://journalism.berkeley.edu/programs/mj/investigative-reporting/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Investigative Reporting Program\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> at UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism was a key partner in making Season 2 of On Our Watch.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The records obtained for this project are part of the\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://projects.scpr.org/california-reporting-project/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> California Reporting Project\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a coalition of news organizations in California. If you have tips or feedback about this series please reach out to us at \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"mailto:onourwatch@kqed.org\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">onourwatch@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before we start, I just wanted to give you a heads up that this episode references suicide. If you or someone you know needs support, we’ve got links to resources in the episode description. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, listeners, it’s Sukey. We’re back. Over the next few weeks, we’re going to be bringing you some brand new bonus episodes. We’re going to dip into some of the stories that didn’t make it in the podcast, and talk to some experts to help us understand Correctional Officer Valentino Rodriguez and Sergeant Kevin Steele in a broader light. We’re starting off this week with a really interesting conversation about what it means to be a whistleblower. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When my colleague Julie first spoke to Val Senior about his son and his friend, Sergeant Kevin Steele, he was hesitant to call them whistleblowers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That name doesn’t do justice to people that have come forward, for me. When we were kids, being a whistleblower is tattletale. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, see I think of it as heroic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The term and its many fraught interpretations are woven throughout our story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dion Green: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I’m a whistleblower rat for ex- exposing this ongoing corruption of staff and that I need to be taken out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sgt. Kevin Steele: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It can take on a bad connotation sometimes, but it is, again, a government program intended to expose corruption. That’s what it’s designed for. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tinkerbell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I still haven’t been confirmed with whistleblower status, so that’s another reason why I’m a little still… I mean, I would venture to say that hopefully, the legal system would protect me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so we wanted to spend some time talking to two people who can help us understand this term and the challenges of coming forward. Thank you both so much for coming in. Could we just start off by having you each introduce yourselves? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sure. My name’s Mary Inman. I’m a partner at the law firm Whistleblower Partners, and I’m in the San Francisco office, and we specialize in representing whistleblowers under the various U.S. whistleblower reward programs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I am Poppy Alexander. I am Mary’s partner here at Whistleblower Partners in the San Francisco office. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We wanted to talk to Mary and Poppy to better understand the journey that Officer Valentino Rodriguez and Sergeant Kevin Steele went through to become whistleblowers, and to see if they had any solutions for how to better support people like them in the future. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, yeah, these were two correctional officers. Well, one was a correctional officer, the other was a correctional sergeant, who both took it upon themselves to report the misconduct of their fellow officers, which is, you know, a very difficult thing to do. And, you know, had pretty serious consequences because of it. And I was just wondering, Mary, if you can put their stories in a broader context, you know, how common are experiences like theirs, among whistleblowers that you speak to or that you have, you know, studied? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Unfortunately, the experiences that both Valentino and Sergeant Steele had are incredibly common. There seems to be a playbook that organizations — whether they’re private or public — have when someone blows the whistle. It’s often people reverting to what I call a ‘medieval mindset,’ where the playbook says we shoot the messenger to divert attention from the message. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that certainly seems very much to be the case that happened here. But it happens regardless of industry or sector. Poppy and I have represented whistleblowers in the tech sector, in health care, in transportation, in finance, and it’s very similar. When you would hope that what a whistleblower does is just shine a light on a fraud for people to look at it or wrongdoing for people to examine it is incredibly demoralizing to a whistleblower that the spotlight gets moved away from that and shown solidly on them. And that can be incredibly disorienting and incredibly demoralizing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mary is absolutely right. We see this all the time in every industry. But I do think that there’s something special about the prison context here. We’re talking about folks who are literally locked up, whether you are a guard or you’re a prisoner, you’re in the same space. You’re sort of stuck together. That is inevitably going to lead to a different mentality that is very much about, you know, circling up, guarding the wagons. That is more extreme even than what we see in sort of the normal context as well. There is a real incentive in these kinds of spaces to guard the institution, to shoot the messenger, to keep the doors closed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s all these perceptions from very- when we’re a very young age that, you know, you don’t rat out or you don’t tattle. That is just magnified a thousand fold when you enter the scenario of military or security or in this case, prison guards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And peace officers as well, kind of have, you know, a unique bind or perhaps a unique bind, which is that they’re often both required by policy to report misconduct and not insulated from retaliation if they do so. And if they end up stepping outside the chain of command to report misconduct, you know, to the media, for example, they can get disciplined for sharing confidential information. And I think it also just makes it so difficult for peace officers, in particular, to know what the right thing to do is, you know, they’re they’re bound by all these conflicting rules. And then where does their own moral compass come into things? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I totally agree, and I think, as you were pointing out, Sukey, the the fact that there can be all of these competing obligations that you have… One of the things that can be most difficult is what was present here — is that the wrongdoing that both Valentino and Sergeant Steele were trying to expose went to the very top. And so it can be- it feels like it’s, it’s futile in a way to expose that internally when you’re exposing it to the very chain of command that’s engaged in the wrongdoing. I do understand that, you know, the Office of Internal Affairs is supposed to be, you know, playing a particular ro- role, but it’s incredibly fraught when the fraud has really been designed, and the architects of the fraud are the people who really control your fate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as you’re saying, you know, if the whistleblower is exposed internally, that can create incredible psychological and emotional pressures on them. And I think we saw that with both Sergeant Kevin Steele and Valentino Rodriguez, in that kind of isolation and ostracization that they experienced. There are also a number of other officers, you know, who have died by suicide after reporting misconduct and feeling like everyone has turned against them, and I think also that their efforts aren’t aren’t- don’t amount to anything. So that frustration that, ‘I did risk so much, I did put my ass on the line to expose the misconduct. And still there’s nothing being done.’ I know you have, you know, this is an area that’s near and dear to your work, Mary. Can you talk a little bit about the psychosocial impacts of whistleblowing and, you know, these very, very serious, you know, deadly consequences? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. I mean, I think we’ve seen this, you’re alluding to, unfortunately, I’ve had the great tragedy of losing two clients in my life. And one of them, The New Yorker did an article talking about the personal toll of whistleblowing. But we’ve also seen it very recently with John Barnett, who’s the whistleblower in the, in the, in the Boeing case, who it appears that he took his life. There’s still, you know, I think some questions about that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think one of the hardest pieces, and where I think we would all be really well served, is creating a level of psychosocial support, not just for whistleblowers, which I think is vital, but also for the first responders, for the people who deal with whistleblowers — for lawyers like myself. I learned the hard way on having to know more about resources that whistleblowers need. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the best things that anyone can do when they’re first dealing with a whistleblower, whether it’s someone in H.R., or it’s the lawyers who they ultimately come to, or even the media, is to say, ‘I believe you.’ Right? Because that’s the issue, is that they have been in this unreality where, you know, they have been made the problem, and the problem they’re seeking to expose has been swept under the rug. So their whole world has been turned upside down and they’ve lost their support network. So everyone at work now knows that they are, you know, they’re radioactive. ‘Don’t do what you know, Valentino did because it’s not it’s not going to inure to your benefit.’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So all of a sudden you’re- you’re isolated. You’ve lost your support network. Then you magnify this by going at home and you’ve lost your job, and your spouse is now or your significant other is incredibly angry, and resentful. So you, you know, the walls do start to feel like they’re closing in. And that’s why I think society we’re at a point — we need whistleblowers so much. They’re often I, I like to say the ‘Fifth Estate.’ They’re they’re a lot of the folks who are actually exposing and holding people to account, but yet we don’t have the even most basic, psycho- psychosocial supports for these people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it feels like this kind of vicious cycle as well, too, that, you know, then because you’re under the psychological pressure and you, you know, begin to feel gaslit or what have you or you do take your life, then we see these cases where the employer or the organization can point at them and say, ‘Look, see, we don’t have to believe what they said. They were the ones having trouble. They were the one, you know, they were in mental distress. They were crazy.’ And so discount their reports even after, you know, their deaths. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, first of all, that’s not good logic. And secondly, I hope that the folks, the other folks that that message is directed to, which, of course, is the other employees can recognize how circular that logic is and how self-serving, and how it simply doesn’t reflect the truth. And again, that’s why it’s so important that those whistleblowers who are in a position to do so can be public and can come forward and say, ‘Look: I did this. I survived, and this is what the process looks like.’ No one sets out to be a whistleblower. No one. You know, this is not anyone’s life goal or career aspiration. It happens. You’re forced into it for all sorts of different reasons. And knowing that people have come before and have made it through to the other side is really important. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Totally agree. And I think one of the one of the hardest things for whistleblowers that results in these, very desperate situations in terms of whistleblowers taking their own lives, I think, is that whistleblowers start out not thinking that they’re whistleblowers at all. They’re just trying to expose wrongdoing. And then the world gets turned upside down and the wrongdoing is ignored and the spotlight gets turned on them, that they’re the problem. What makes it so difficult is that I think they have an abiding sense of, ‘There’s an injustice, there’s something wrong, and it hasn’t been addressed. And yet all of this energy, like enormous amounts of energy and resources which could have been used to address the problem, are now being focused on me as the problem.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think those are just- it’s so hard to reconcile that. And I think one of the best services that Poppy and I can offer is to describe the playbook to the whistleblower and say, ‘If you talk to me early on, I’m going to spell out for you how this is going to go.’ And then at least it takes some of the sting out of it. And it’s, it’s really quite ironic. Our clients are like, ‘You are completely prescient. Do you have a crystal ball? Like, how did you know this was going to happen?’ And we just said, unfortunately, this is just the path. And so if you know that that’s going to happen and you can try and plan for it, it does help whistleblowers to at least absorb those blows. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think that, like you’re talking about the psychological journey of the whistleblower. And I think, you know, especially for Sergeant Kevin Steele, he… he really did you kind of see this arc of his, you know, disillusionment with his institution and that the place that he begins in is one of such faith in these, you know, pillars that he believed in and that were of, you know, fairness and accountability. And, you know, he’s just so kind of by the book, dude. And the betrayal that he experienced when he did try to report misconduct and having that not be taken seriously was incredibly crushing to him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. I mean, I think with Sergeant Steele, it’s a particularly acute scenario because in addition to him feeling, you know, having the expectation that all of these policies and, you know, oaths that they took would be taken seriously. And to have the scales fall from your eyes is, you know, it’s a very disillusioning process. But I think what magnified it for him and amplified it, is that he became close with Valentino’s father and he was really traumatized by Valentino’s death, and this question of whether or not this was, you know, a suspicious death. Whether he died under particular circumstances. So I think there was also a level of guilt, because Valentino was on his team and someone that he should protect. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is absolutely the same thing we see. I- we see this day in and day out with whistleblowers in terms of the journeys that they have. And I think that a lot of us have observed this that there’s sort of this culture, at least, at least in the United States, as to whistleblowing that they’re either heroes or villains. And I think a lot of us believe that one of the best things, psychologically, for whistleblowers is if we could normalize it. They don’t want to be either. And I think that that is probably one of the things that they get caught up in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is in this, in this sort of dilemma. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We saw with the MeToo movement that a lot of this is- the psychological journey can also involve gaslighting and starting to doubt yourself. I think that’s what we see with Sergeant Steele is that he believed all of these things to be true. And then his reality started to change. And then that really makes you start to doubt yourself. And, and the circling the wagons phenomenon that Poppy talked about just makes this worse, is that everybody else is trying to suggest that this is not how it happened. And you start to then that makes even more self-doubt, which can be a very vicious cycle. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s interesting. There’s some studies that talk a lot about what happens to whistleblowers. Because of the pressures they lose their friends, they lose their social network. And so the New England Journal of Medicine did a study on pharmaceutical whistleblowers who expose the pharmaceutical industry. You know, they’re seeing higher incidences of divorce, of depression, anxiety, substance abuse. I think these are all outward indicators of tools that- and the occasion of what happens when, you know, you expose something and then, instead of it being corrected, it gets covered up. And then you yourself, as the whistleblower, often become persona non grata. The retaliation is done by your employer as a way to send a signal to other whistleblowers, ‘You shouldn’t do this.’ So your sort of almost made, basically made an example of. So I think all of these are, you know, is an environment that’s just incredibly difficult. And it adds insult to injury. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You mentioned the MeToo movement, and I think one of the things that we have found in our reporting as well, is how, you know, discrimination, misogyny, racism also become tools to enforce the code of silence and to keep people from speaking up. I mean, I know as a woman, that feeling of like, oh, I’ve got to be cool to get along. You know, I’m not going to like, rock the boat or push back if somebody makes an inappropriate comment — you know, taken to a much more serious level, obviously, with Valentino Rodriguez. But does that translate to other contexts outside the prison as well? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely. Unfortunately, we see this a lot. It is rarer than any of us would like to see female whistleblowers, to see whistleblowers of color. And so much of that has to do with that mentality you just mentioned. That, you know, ‘we’re trained to get along,’ and we’re trained that ‘to get along’ means to value the traditional workplace culture of white cis men. And that obviously is amplified in the prison context. But that’s true everywhere. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I- this is my completely uneducated guess, but I do feel like we’re starting to see a shift there. And certainly starting to see more female whistleblowers just coming in the door. And I do wonder how much of that is the MeToo movement. I wonder how much of that is people just being fed up with that attitude. But it still is very much a problem. And, you know, as Mary said, we have this tradition of we either see whistleblowers as heroes or villains, but either way, it’s oftentimes this sort of mentality of, you know, the single man standing alone on the hilltop shouting, you know, shouting the truth. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s not true. Women have been whistleblowers forever. People of color have been whistleblowers forever. They have found other ways to make sure that that information gets out. You know, some have been very public about it. Erin Brockovich is, you know, maybe the quintessential example on some level. But, and other people do it in different ways. They help their community. They make sure that the information gets out via a whisper network, what have you. There’s all sorts of strategies to make sure that the truth gets told. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But when it comes to this sort of ‘in-group outgroup mentality’ of making sure that you were sort of getting along in a confined space, whether that’s a workplace, whether that’s a prison, whether that’s whatever it might be, there certainly are added incentives to put your head down, do your work, ignore what is oftentimes right in front of your face as a wrong. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I agree, the power differential is something that is really significant, right? In terms of you see, a lot of studies have shown that women and people of color are more likely to leave an organization than to report. And I do think that MeToo started to show us a way that, if we can create a solidarity among whistleblowers, I think that’s one of the strongest way we can encourage, reporting. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I would love to see us have more avenues to find ways to bring whistleblowers together. So it isn’t, just that lone wolf as Poppy said. But that there are multiple people linking arms, saying that this happened to them as well. And then you really do have to pay, give it more credence than if it’s just one sole person. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Ad break]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think within, you know, the California Department of Corrections and going back to the policy of their, you know, ban on the code of silence, there’s been an unintended consequence, at least according — or maybe it’s intended, I don’t know — but at least according to the correctional officers that we spoke to, which is that if you don’t report right away, you can then get in trouble when you report later. Like, if you see an incident happen, excessive use of force, maybe you’re fearful to come forward initially, and then you- you gather that internal fortitude and you decide to make that report, you can often then get disciplined for, you know, holding to the code of silence thus far. And it creates a disincentive to come forward rather than, you know, the stated purpose of this policy, which is to create an incentive to come forward. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s such a challenge. You know, we have clients who come forward sometimes and tell us about information that’s many, many years old. And there’s lots of reasons why they might suddenly wake up one day and say, ‘Now’s the time. I have to tell someone.’ Of course, it’s probably better in terms of trying to solve problems, when people come to us with fresh information, we can usually do more with it. But that doesn’t mean that that’s a less valid whistleblower simply because they waited. It usually means that there’s something else going on in their lives that prevented them from coming forward first. And we need to recognize that in how we design our policies and how we think through this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, we’ve heard from a number of correctional officers since the podcast came out saying that just hearing these stories made them feel like, you know, they might have an opportunity to speak up. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And that’s, you know, really heartening, obviously, in terms of just the rewarding work of getting these voices out into the world. But I’ve also talked to correctional officers who have, you know, tried to get whistleblower protections, and often they want to do it before they blow the whistle. They want to know, like, ‘Oh, I’m going to be protected ahead of time. Like, where do I go to, you know, get my whistleblower card or whatever.’ \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And, you know, from my understanding, it really doesn’t work like that. Like it’s very based on, you know, retroactive retaliation. And if you can prove that you were retaliated against, maybe you can get some retroactive protection. But can either of you address that issue? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think there really, it can be very difficult to prove retaliation. Sort of the statistics of the ability of someone to succeed in a retaliation claim in the United States are very dire. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They’re not great. And I think part of that is because it’s very difficult to prove that you were retaliated against for speaking up as compared to some- any other reason that someone can pretextual come up with, right? Like, oh, you’re chronically late, even though your chronic lateness was something that everyone tolerated for years. But until you spoke up, then all of a sudden that becomes a problem. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is there something that needs to change in the law to make that an easier argument to make, or to, you know, the lower the standard of proof that you have to reach in order to prove that retaliation happened? What are some fixes that you see for that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, it’s interesting, in Europe there’s now something called the European Whistleblowing Directive. And one of the changes that they made that I would love to see being made across all of the various retaliation protections laws, is this burden- shifting the burden of proof. That the burden initially, and for too long, remains on the plaintiff. To have to prove that, you know, they were retaliated against because they spoke up. And if we can reverse- shift that burden of proof and put it on the employer, actually, to prove that, you know, they did do it for a legitimate reason, I think that would be one concrete way that we could improve the odds that people could succeed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the, you know, looking domestically, I think the SEC also provides a really excellent model here where the SEC takes very seriously any accusations of retaliation related to someone who has reported securities fraud to the, to the agency. And they take it very seriously and they, you know, will tell employers at every opportunity that they take it very seriously. And that public messaging has been extremely important and protective. And then oftentimes it then puts whistleblowers in the somewhat uncomfortable position of having to decide where they’re going to publicly declare to the company that they, in fact, did report to the SEC, because then that does provide them some level of protection. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That only applies to some small subset of the whistle blowing world. But there’s no reason that has to be true. There’s lots of other ways to try to build off of that same level of protection that we see. There’s other agencies that are involved and whistle-blowing in all sorts of forms, we have- you know, OSHA is involved in many of these cases. There’s- we have lots of agencies here. So I think there’s lots of other strategies to try to build in more of a protection. But it does. It always starts with culture. Right? And that’s culture both from the government side of telling companies and telling organizations what’s important. And then of course, it starts on the company side. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. I think the- the long tail of fear that correctional officers experience after- even after they leave… Like, they’ve retired for years, but they’re still afraid to speak up. They don’t know if their pension can be taken away. They don’t know what power the institution still has over them. There’s also, you know, obviously just their their friendship groups and their culture that they’re afraid of losing. But there’s just this very long tail of oppression, I would say, that they experience psychologically and that it’s not entirely dissipated when they leave the prison at all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely. And you know, so, so many times prisons, right, are and very small towns. And so even if you’re not working at the prison, you’re still- most other people in the town are going to be. And that then means there’s really no way to sort of escape that. But of course, you shouldn’t have to. You shouldn’t have to lose all your friends and community simply because you’re willing to take a stand and tell the truth. That should never be a consequence of telling the truth. And- but of course it acts as a disincentive for coming forward, for speaking out against the pack, for what have you, which can only be remedied by changing the culture, can only be remedied by encouraging people to see that as a good. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And Sukey, you’re right that the retaliation doesn’t stop when they leave the prison. And there’s sort of a long tail of retaliation, right? Which is often when you go to that next job, unfortunately that next employer will often call for a recommendation or a reference to your existing employer. And, we often see that even if they’re not doing it directly, there’s word of mouth that, ‘You don’t want this person. This is, this person is disloyal. They, you know, they’ve exposed us and created all this difficulty. They’re a troublemaker and you shouldn’t hire them.’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so that certainly, you know, in the case of my whistleblower client that was featured in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New Yorker\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, that was really ultimately his undoing, right? Is that he ended up, because he couldn’t leave the, the part of Florida where he was practicing. He would get interviews and get to a certain place, and then in, in getting his next job position. And when it got to that reference point and they’d say like, ‘Oh, he seems great.’ And you get all these signals. And then all of a sudden when it came to closing the deal, they would never hire him. So that ends up in you draining your 401K, you now don’t have, you know, you’re no longer gainfully employed, and now you’re blocklisted or blacklisted. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think that is one of the other problems that just makes it, again, incredibly insidious that… I always talk about there’s this ‘Scarlet W’ on your chest that’s emblazoned. And that you may want to put it down, you may even want to put down the mantle of whistleblower, but often you’re not allowed to. And that is a cross that you are bearing again and again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, one of the things that really struck me just doing this reporting is the disconnect between the formal institutional stance, which says, you know, ‘The code of silence is banned. And we want, you know, we take all reports of employee misconduct very seriously, and we want people to come forward.’ And then that what actually happens in response to that. And I’m just wondering if either of you can speak to… is there a policy change that can fix this? Or because there is this disconnect already between policy and action, you know, do we need a different intervention? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a cultural problem much more than a policy problem. Though the policies obviously are then tied together because if you know that the company’s policy is that they’re going to, you know, they’re going to take every whistleblower complaint with this huge grain of salt, they’re not going to start from the presumption that the whistleblower is correct. They’re not going to start from the presumption, which is usually true, that the whistleblower is reporting this because they love the company or the organization or, you know, the group. They’re doing it out of love. They’re doing it because they want it to be better. They’ve, you know, they found a problem and they want to fix the problem, and they want to do it before someone from the outside finds out about the problem. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That so often is what the energy is that our clients bring when they’re coming forward. And what they’re met with is this culture of silence there. You know, you talk into a black box, you never hear what happens again. All too often, our clients say to us that we are the first person to ever listen to them about what they’re talking about. And that’s sad because we are never someone’s first call. We really aren’t. They’re always trying to get some change to happen before they resort to calling a whistleblower attorney — as as they should be, quite honestly. And if smart organizations and smart companies would just listen to their whistleblowers, they would put us out of a job. But that’s good. That would be better for everybody. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I agree, and there’s some really great empirical data and research coming out of George Washington University and the University of Utah that really reinforces this idea that whistleblowers are actually your best risk management tool. They’re the canaries in the coal mine that actually help you see a problem before we’re all overtaken by noxious fumes. And this research really basically underscores that companies that actually see whistleblowers in this way as, as, you know, people who can help mitigate risks and deal with problems before they metastasize into something like a big public relations scandal… If you use them in this way, it actually allows companies to be more profitable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think one of the biggest things that needs to happen is just an education on who whistleblowers really are. As Poppy said, whistleblowers are- not only are they not disloyal, they are your \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">most\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> loyal employees because it takes a lot of intestinal fortitude to be the type of employee who is going to tell you the hard truths at considerable potential risk to themselves. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for coming into the studio and just lending your expertise and your empathy to this conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s been a real pleasure to be on this podcast. It’s a real testament that the only way we’re going to get change is, is to, you know, point to really great investigative journalists like this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely. It’s, it’s a horrible topic, but it brings great joy to talk about it because it’s so important and so misunderstood, quite honestly, I think, so much about the process of whistleblowing. And so every opportunity to be able to talk about it and really go in depth as you are in this podcast series is just invaluable. And it’s invaluable for the future whistleblowers, for the next person who finds themself in an uncomfortable situation where they really need to speak up and they don’t know what it means and they don’t know how. You know, the education of learning what that process looks like is something we all need to work on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, that was Poppy Alexander and Mary Inman. They are also working right now with federal legislators to try and introduce a bill that would provide mental health support for whistleblowers. We have a link to Mary and Poppy’s website in our episode description, along with other resources for whistleblowers. Please continue to send tips or feedback about the series to On Our Watch at K-Q-E-D dot O-R-G. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was hosted by me, Sukey Lewis. It was edited by Jen Chien, who is also KQED’s Director of Podcasts. It was produced, scored, and cut by Chris Egusa. Final mixing by Christopher Beale. Original music by Ramtin Arablouei, including our theme song. Additional music from APM Music and Audio Network. Funding for On Our Watch is provided in part by Arnold Ventures and the California Endowment. Thank you to Katie Sprenger, our Podcast Operations Manager, our Managing Editor of News and Enterprise, Otis, R. Taylor, Jr., Ethan Toven-Lindsay, our Vice President of News, and KQED Chief Content Officer Holly Kernan. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And thanks to all of you for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>The federal judge presiding over the trial of the man convicted of attempting to kidnap former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and fracturing her husband’s skull with a hammer ordered a redo of David DePape’s sentencing on Saturday, acknowledging that the court failed to ask him on Friday if he would like to make a statement before handing down a 30-year prison term.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Prosecutors raised concerns a few hours after U.S. District Judge Jacqueline Scott Corley sentenced DePape on Friday morning, according to court filings. Then, the defense filed a notice of appeal in the case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In her order scheduling a reopened sentencing hearing for May 28, Corley noted that neither prosecutors nor defense attorneys alerted the court that DePape hadn’t been given a chance to make a statement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Nonetheless, it was the Court’s responsibility to personally ask Mr. DePape if he wanted to speak,” Corley wrote. “As the Court did not do so, it committed clear error.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_11986718 hero='https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/depape_crying-1020x574.jpeg']Prosecutors sought a longer, 40-year prison sentence and the application of a terrorism enhancement, an argument which Corley rejected Friday. She said, however, that DePape remained a threat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Defense attorneys argued Friday that untreated mental illness left DePape vulnerable to believing conspiracy theories that drove him to plot to kidnap House Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi and others he said were part of a cabal of powerful public figures, as he testified during his trial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A federal jury convicted DePape in November of attempted kidnapping of a federal official and assaulting her family member.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Stanford law professor Robert Weisberg said Corley’s order on Saturday puts the judge in a “slightly tricky position” to maintain an open mind about changing DePape’s sentence based on anything he says. And the judge will need to make a record that she considered the defendant’s statement, even if she doesn’t alter the sentence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I mean, she’ll have to do that with some elegance,” Weisberg said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There are so many strange things about this case and the behavior of the defendant, it’s hard to say,” Weisberg said. “He may just take the opportunity to give another speech.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Effects of the continued federal sentencing may ripple into a separate trial scheduled to open as early as May 24, where DePape faces state-level charges in San Francisco Superior Court, including attempted murder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>The federal judge presiding over the trial of the man convicted of attempting to kidnap former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and fracturing her husband’s skull with a hammer ordered a redo of David DePape’s sentencing on Saturday, acknowledging that the court failed to ask him on Friday if he would like to make a statement before handing down a 30-year prison term.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Prosecutors raised concerns a few hours after U.S. District Judge Jacqueline Scott Corley sentenced DePape on Friday morning, according to court filings. Then, the defense filed a notice of appeal in the case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In her order scheduling a reopened sentencing hearing for May 28, Corley noted that neither prosecutors nor defense attorneys alerted the court that DePape hadn’t been given a chance to make a statement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Nonetheless, it was the Court’s responsibility to personally ask Mr. DePape if he wanted to speak,” Corley wrote. “As the Court did not do so, it committed clear error.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Prosecutors sought a longer, 40-year prison sentence and the application of a terrorism enhancement, an argument which Corley rejected Friday. She said, however, that DePape remained a threat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Defense attorneys argued Friday that untreated mental illness left DePape vulnerable to believing conspiracy theories that drove him to plot to kidnap House Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi and others he said were part of a cabal of powerful public figures, as he testified during his trial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A federal jury convicted DePape in November of attempted kidnapping of a federal official and assaulting her family member.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Stanford law professor Robert Weisberg said Corley’s order on Saturday puts the judge in a “slightly tricky position” to maintain an open mind about changing DePape’s sentence based on anything he says. And the judge will need to make a record that she considered the defendant’s statement, even if she doesn’t alter the sentence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I mean, she’ll have to do that with some elegance,” Weisberg said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There are so many strange things about this case and the behavior of the defendant, it’s hard to say,” Weisberg said. “He may just take the opportunity to give another speech.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Effects of the continued federal sentencing may ripple into a separate trial scheduled to open as early as May 24, where DePape faces state-level charges in San Francisco Superior Court, including attempted murder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "After Months-Long Coma, This Latino Immigrant Worker Is Still Fighting Mysterious Long COVID Symptoms",
"headTitle": "After Months-Long Coma, This Latino Immigrant Worker Is Still Fighting Mysterious Long COVID Symptoms | KQED",
"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was produced by \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://eltecolote.org/content/en/\">\u003cem>El Tecolote\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, a bilingual publication that documents and amplifies the voices of San Francisco’s Latinx communities.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Osbaldo Varilla-Aguilar rarely worried about his health. As a construction worker, he had enough gigs to earn more than $500 a week under the table, allowing him to rent a studio for $600 a month with two other Latinx construction workers in San Francisco’s Mission District. Despite working nearly full-time, he was barely able to make ends meet. So, when the pandemic hit, Varilla-Aguilar continued working. He got critically sick in December 2020. To this day, Varilla-Aguilar still wonders whether he got COVID-19 on the job or at the grocery store.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Either way, it landed him in a coma — for more than three months.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was such a difficult time,” said his sister, Araceli Aguilar-Perez. “To see him like that, it affected me a lot,” Aguilar-Perez said the doctors recommended disconnecting Varilla-Aguilar from the ventilator after two months. The family refused. Hoping for a miracle, Aguilar-Perez talked to her unconscious brother through a hospital monitor via Zoom calls every week. Then, in March 2021, Varilla-Aguilar woke up. “When I opened my eyes, it felt like a few days [had passed],” Varilla-Aguilar said. “But they told me it had been three months … It was a shock.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986483\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11986483\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-16-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A middle-aged Latino man puts on an oxygen mask at home.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-16-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-16-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-16-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-16-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-16-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-16-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Osbaldo Varilla-Aguilar, 46, puts on the oxygen ventilator he uses every night in San Francisco on Feb. 26, 2024. \u003ccite>(Pablo Unzueta for El Tecolote/CatchLight Local)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Today, more than three years after he was discharged from the hospital, Varilla-Aguilar still depends on the oxygen respirator next to his bed. He has since moved out from his shared Mission District studio and lives in Sunnydale in a shared home with other Latinx workers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He and his housemates are among the community that COVID-19 hit the hardest in San Francisco: immigrants, especially those working unprotected essential jobs. As the devastating impact of \u003ca href=\"https://ldi.upenn.edu/our-work/research-updates/a-health-equity-voice-from-san-franciscos-latino-covid-pandemic/\">COVID-19 in Latinx communities\u003c/a> in the Mission District and Bayview is increasingly documented, the lingering, and sometimes extreme, symptoms of infection are much less understood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Weeks after being discharged from the hospital, Varilla-Aguilar noticed his vision was going blurry while waiting at a bus stop. Within four hours, his left eye went permanently blind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986484\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11986484\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-33-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A middle-aged Latinx couple, a woman seated and a man standing with his right arm around her as they both look at the camera in their home kitchen with a refrigerator behind them.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1322\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-33-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-33-KQED-800x529.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-33-KQED-1020x674.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-33-KQED-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-33-KQED-1536x1015.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-33-KQED-1920x1269.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Siblings Araceli Aguilar-Perez (left) and Osbaldo Varilla-Aguilar inside Aguilar-Perez’s home in San Francisco on April 25, 2024. \u003ccite>(Pablo Unzueta for El Tecolote/CatchLight Local)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“[COVID] can cause many things, one of them being thrombosis,” said Dr. Hector Bonilla, a clinical infectious disease expert and associate professor at Stanford University. According to\u003ca href=\"https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10123679/\"> medical research\u003c/a>, critically ill COVID-19 patients like Varilla-Aguilar are especially at risk for severe health outcomes like thrombosis or blood clots. “It can happen any place [in the body],” Bonilla said. “Maybe this can explain what happened in the eye.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Combined with his deteriorated eyesight, Varilla-Aguilar also endures fatigue, brain fog and depression, which are among the more common symptoms cited by people who experience long COVID. He said he also never fully recovered the strength he lost during his monthslong coma despite a year in physical therapy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t have the strength that I used to, and I run out of breath when I try,” Varilla-Aguilar said. “So it’s hard finding steady work.” Despite his physical weaknesses, he continues to take on physically demanding jobs like landscaping and, on occasion, roofing gigs. “I have no choice. I need to pay the rent. If I don’t do it, who else is going to help me?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the 46-year-old, doctors have not been able to determine why COVID-19 took an extreme toll on his health. Instead, doctors have prescribed him several prescription pills to help reduce some of his ongoing symptoms. Still, he believes this hasn’t been enough and that the cost of medication is expensive. His experience is one faced by millions of long COVID patients across the country as researchers continue to look for the underlying causes of the mysterious symptoms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986481\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11986481\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-8-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A middle-aged Latino man gestures during a presentation as he talks into a microphone.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1330\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-8-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-8-KQED-800x532.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-8-KQED-1020x678.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-8-KQED-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-8-KQED-1536x1021.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-8-KQED-1920x1277.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Osbaldo Varilla-Aguilar, 46, shares his experience with mysterious symptoms during a ‘Somos Remedios’ event inside the Latino Task Force building in the Mission District in San Francisco on Jan. 13, 2024. \u003ccite>(Pablo Unzueta for El Tecolote/CatchLight Local)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986486\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2500px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11986486\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-DYPTICH-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2500\" height=\"821\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-DYPTICH-KQED.jpg 2500w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-DYPTICH-KQED-800x263.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-DYPTICH-KQED-1020x335.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-DYPTICH-KQED-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-DYPTICH-KQED-1536x504.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-DYPTICH-KQED-2048x673.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-DYPTICH-KQED-1920x631.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2500px) 100vw, 2500px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: (From left) Rosario Ortegón, Martin Rodríguez, and Osbaldo Varilla-Aguilar bag fresh produce during a ‘Somos Remedios’ event at the Latino Task Force building in the Mission District in San Francisco on Jan. 13, 2024. Right: Herbs and remedies on display at a ‘Somos Remedios’ event. \u003ccite>(Pablo Unzueta for El Tecolote/CatchLight Local)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Amid medical uncertainty, Varilla-Aguilar, like other sufferers of long COVID, has turned elsewhere for solutions. Previously skeptical of alternative medicine, Varilla-Aguilar agreed to his sister’s “baño de pies” after months of coping with numbness in his feet. The foot bath was infused with herbs like Santa Maria, rue, rose buds and eucalyptus, which his sister blended into a bucket of hot water. The effort was meant to reduce stress and inflammation. After a few treatments, he said he was shocked to have gained back sensations in his feet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since then, Varilla-Aguilar has used and advocated for natural remedies rooted in Indigenous practice, including the consumption of teas, herbs, and whole foods. He is also a member of “Somos Remedios,” a Mission-based grassroots research group that documents Latinx solutions to treating long COVID.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Though Varilla-Aguilar now prioritizes his health, he admits that he will never be the same again. “Every day, there is an effort to live, to work, and to have enough money to eat,” Varilla-Aguilar said. “I found [strength] within myself, [when] there was nowhere else to find it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986485\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11986485\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-34-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A middle-aged Latino man outside of his house, photographed from inside the house, with a car parked on the street outside his house.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1322\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-34-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-34-KQED-800x529.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-34-KQED-1020x674.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-34-KQED-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-34-KQED-1536x1015.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-34-KQED-1920x1269.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Osbaldo Varilla-Aguilar, 46, steps outside of his sister’s home in San Francisco on April 25, 2024. \u003ccite>(Pablo Unzueta for El Tecolote/CatchLight Local)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://eltecolote.org/content/en/long-covid-latino-immigrant-worker/\">\u003cem>El Tecolote’s original version of the story can be found here.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Construction worker Osbaldo Varilla-Aguilar is still fighting mysterious symptoms after emerging from a 3-month coma and going blind in his left eye. His experience is just one example of the devastating impact that COVID continues to have on Latinx communities in San Francisco.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was produced by \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://eltecolote.org/content/en/\">\u003cem>El Tecolote\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, a bilingual publication that documents and amplifies the voices of San Francisco’s Latinx communities.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Osbaldo Varilla-Aguilar rarely worried about his health. As a construction worker, he had enough gigs to earn more than $500 a week under the table, allowing him to rent a studio for $600 a month with two other Latinx construction workers in San Francisco’s Mission District. Despite working nearly full-time, he was barely able to make ends meet. So, when the pandemic hit, Varilla-Aguilar continued working. He got critically sick in December 2020. To this day, Varilla-Aguilar still wonders whether he got COVID-19 on the job or at the grocery store.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Either way, it landed him in a coma — for more than three months.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was such a difficult time,” said his sister, Araceli Aguilar-Perez. “To see him like that, it affected me a lot,” Aguilar-Perez said the doctors recommended disconnecting Varilla-Aguilar from the ventilator after two months. The family refused. Hoping for a miracle, Aguilar-Perez talked to her unconscious brother through a hospital monitor via Zoom calls every week. Then, in March 2021, Varilla-Aguilar woke up. “When I opened my eyes, it felt like a few days [had passed],” Varilla-Aguilar said. “But they told me it had been three months … It was a shock.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986483\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11986483\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-16-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A middle-aged Latino man puts on an oxygen mask at home.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-16-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-16-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-16-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-16-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-16-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-16-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Osbaldo Varilla-Aguilar, 46, puts on the oxygen ventilator he uses every night in San Francisco on Feb. 26, 2024. \u003ccite>(Pablo Unzueta for El Tecolote/CatchLight Local)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Today, more than three years after he was discharged from the hospital, Varilla-Aguilar still depends on the oxygen respirator next to his bed. He has since moved out from his shared Mission District studio and lives in Sunnydale in a shared home with other Latinx workers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He and his housemates are among the community that COVID-19 hit the hardest in San Francisco: immigrants, especially those working unprotected essential jobs. As the devastating impact of \u003ca href=\"https://ldi.upenn.edu/our-work/research-updates/a-health-equity-voice-from-san-franciscos-latino-covid-pandemic/\">COVID-19 in Latinx communities\u003c/a> in the Mission District and Bayview is increasingly documented, the lingering, and sometimes extreme, symptoms of infection are much less understood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Weeks after being discharged from the hospital, Varilla-Aguilar noticed his vision was going blurry while waiting at a bus stop. Within four hours, his left eye went permanently blind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986484\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11986484\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-33-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A middle-aged Latinx couple, a woman seated and a man standing with his right arm around her as they both look at the camera in their home kitchen with a refrigerator behind them.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1322\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-33-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-33-KQED-800x529.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-33-KQED-1020x674.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-33-KQED-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-33-KQED-1536x1015.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-33-KQED-1920x1269.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Siblings Araceli Aguilar-Perez (left) and Osbaldo Varilla-Aguilar inside Aguilar-Perez’s home in San Francisco on April 25, 2024. \u003ccite>(Pablo Unzueta for El Tecolote/CatchLight Local)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“[COVID] can cause many things, one of them being thrombosis,” said Dr. Hector Bonilla, a clinical infectious disease expert and associate professor at Stanford University. According to\u003ca href=\"https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10123679/\"> medical research\u003c/a>, critically ill COVID-19 patients like Varilla-Aguilar are especially at risk for severe health outcomes like thrombosis or blood clots. “It can happen any place [in the body],” Bonilla said. “Maybe this can explain what happened in the eye.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Combined with his deteriorated eyesight, Varilla-Aguilar also endures fatigue, brain fog and depression, which are among the more common symptoms cited by people who experience long COVID. He said he also never fully recovered the strength he lost during his monthslong coma despite a year in physical therapy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t have the strength that I used to, and I run out of breath when I try,” Varilla-Aguilar said. “So it’s hard finding steady work.” Despite his physical weaknesses, he continues to take on physically demanding jobs like landscaping and, on occasion, roofing gigs. “I have no choice. I need to pay the rent. If I don’t do it, who else is going to help me?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the 46-year-old, doctors have not been able to determine why COVID-19 took an extreme toll on his health. Instead, doctors have prescribed him several prescription pills to help reduce some of his ongoing symptoms. Still, he believes this hasn’t been enough and that the cost of medication is expensive. His experience is one faced by millions of long COVID patients across the country as researchers continue to look for the underlying causes of the mysterious symptoms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986481\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11986481\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-8-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A middle-aged Latino man gestures during a presentation as he talks into a microphone.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1330\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-8-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-8-KQED-800x532.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-8-KQED-1020x678.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-8-KQED-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-8-KQED-1536x1021.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-8-KQED-1920x1277.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Osbaldo Varilla-Aguilar, 46, shares his experience with mysterious symptoms during a ‘Somos Remedios’ event inside the Latino Task Force building in the Mission District in San Francisco on Jan. 13, 2024. \u003ccite>(Pablo Unzueta for El Tecolote/CatchLight Local)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986486\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2500px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11986486\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-DYPTICH-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2500\" height=\"821\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-DYPTICH-KQED.jpg 2500w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-DYPTICH-KQED-800x263.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-DYPTICH-KQED-1020x335.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-DYPTICH-KQED-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-DYPTICH-KQED-1536x504.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-DYPTICH-KQED-2048x673.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-DYPTICH-KQED-1920x631.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2500px) 100vw, 2500px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: (From left) Rosario Ortegón, Martin Rodríguez, and Osbaldo Varilla-Aguilar bag fresh produce during a ‘Somos Remedios’ event at the Latino Task Force building in the Mission District in San Francisco on Jan. 13, 2024. Right: Herbs and remedies on display at a ‘Somos Remedios’ event. \u003ccite>(Pablo Unzueta for El Tecolote/CatchLight Local)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Amid medical uncertainty, Varilla-Aguilar, like other sufferers of long COVID, has turned elsewhere for solutions. Previously skeptical of alternative medicine, Varilla-Aguilar agreed to his sister’s “baño de pies” after months of coping with numbness in his feet. The foot bath was infused with herbs like Santa Maria, rue, rose buds and eucalyptus, which his sister blended into a bucket of hot water. The effort was meant to reduce stress and inflammation. After a few treatments, he said he was shocked to have gained back sensations in his feet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since then, Varilla-Aguilar has used and advocated for natural remedies rooted in Indigenous practice, including the consumption of teas, herbs, and whole foods. He is also a member of “Somos Remedios,” a Mission-based grassroots research group that documents Latinx solutions to treating long COVID.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Though Varilla-Aguilar now prioritizes his health, he admits that he will never be the same again. “Every day, there is an effort to live, to work, and to have enough money to eat,” Varilla-Aguilar said. “I found [strength] within myself, [when] there was nowhere else to find it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986485\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11986485\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-34-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A middle-aged Latino man outside of his house, photographed from inside the house, with a car parked on the street outside his house.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1322\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-34-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-34-KQED-800x529.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-34-KQED-1020x674.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-34-KQED-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-34-KQED-1536x1015.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/FEBMAY2024-LONGCOVID-ET-PU-34-KQED-1920x1269.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Osbaldo Varilla-Aguilar, 46, steps outside of his sister’s home in San Francisco on April 25, 2024. \u003ccite>(Pablo Unzueta for El Tecolote/CatchLight Local)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://eltecolote.org/content/en/long-covid-latino-immigrant-worker/\">\u003cem>El Tecolote’s original version of the story can be found here.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>California’s state Assembly voted Thursday to offer a formal apology for the state’s role in supporting chattel slavery, marking a key milestone in the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/reparations\">first-in-the-nation effort to provide state-level reparations\u003c/a> to Black Californians.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The idea for an apology was born from the state’s Reparations Task Force, which studied the harms committed by the state government against Black residents and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11981271/track-the-success-of-californias-14-reparations-bills-for-black-residents\">published dozens of policy recommendations for the Legislature\u003c/a>. The apology bill, Assembly Bill 3089, requires an acknowledgment of the actions of members of the state’s government in advancing slavery and decades of discriminatory policies — and requires a plaque memorializing the apology to be installed at the state Capitol.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We cannot possibly move forward without acknowledging our role in evil behavior,” said Assemblymember Reggie Jones-Sawyer (D-Los Angeles), the bill’s author.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Assembly approved the bill 62–0, with a dozen of the chamber’s 17 Republican members not voting. After the final vote, members broke out in applause and walked over to congratulate Jones-Sawyer, who served on the Reparations Task Force and is in his final term in the Legislature.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Even though our state entered the union as a free state, every branch of government has had a hand in perpetrating the oppression of Black folks,” Jones-Sawyer said. “This bill is an opportunity to confront those tough truths in a meaningful way.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Before the vote, legislators recounted \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11942302/californias-legislature-has-roots-in-slavery-are-lawmakers-ready-to-confront-that\">the role state lawmakers played in advancing chattel slavery during the state’s early days\u003c/a>. In 1852, the state Assembly passed California’s fugitive slave law, which allowed enslavers to recapture formerly enslaved people they had brought to California before the state’s entrance into the union — and forcibly remove them to slaveholding states in the South.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A leading supporter of the fugitive slave bill in the state Senate, Sen. James Estill, owned fourteen slaves on his Solano County farm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And in 1854, the state Legislature approved a non-binding resolution supporting the Kansas-Nebraska Act, the explosive federal law allowing the expansion of slavery nationwide into U.S. territories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is undeniable that our systems of government have been complicit in the oppression of African-Americans,” Assembly Speaker Robert Rivas (D-Hollister) said. “Our courts, our schools, even this Legislature. California’s history is tarnished by the subjugation of Black people.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside label=\"Related Stories\" postID=\"news_11981271,news_11982724,news_11975584\"]AB 3089 now heads to the state Senate. The bill is one of more than a dozen \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11976617/state-lawmakers-propose-14-bills-to-provide-reparations-for-black-californians\">included in a reparations package of bills supported by the California Legislative Black Caucus\u003c/a>. Earlier this year, the state Assembly approved a resolution acknowledging many of the harms inflicted by state leaders against Black residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Other bills in the reparations package are focused on repairing that harm, including proposals to compensate Black residents for land taken by eminent domain and another requiring state licensing boards to prioritize Black applicants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Those bills and a handful of others cleared a key hurdle on Thursday, winning the backing of the Legislature’s powerful appropriations committees. But two other reparations-related proposals were quietly shelved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Senate Bill 1007 and Senate Bill 1013 would take a first step toward providing homeowner assistance and property tax relief, respectively, to the descendants of slaves. Sen. Steven Bradford (D-Gardena) wrote both bills, but the Black Caucus designated neither as a priority bill for its members.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>California’s state Assembly voted Thursday to offer a formal apology for the state’s role in supporting chattel slavery, marking a key milestone in the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/reparations\">first-in-the-nation effort to provide state-level reparations\u003c/a> to Black Californians.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The idea for an apology was born from the state’s Reparations Task Force, which studied the harms committed by the state government against Black residents and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11981271/track-the-success-of-californias-14-reparations-bills-for-black-residents\">published dozens of policy recommendations for the Legislature\u003c/a>. The apology bill, Assembly Bill 3089, requires an acknowledgment of the actions of members of the state’s government in advancing slavery and decades of discriminatory policies — and requires a plaque memorializing the apology to be installed at the state Capitol.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We cannot possibly move forward without acknowledging our role in evil behavior,” said Assemblymember Reggie Jones-Sawyer (D-Los Angeles), the bill’s author.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Assembly approved the bill 62–0, with a dozen of the chamber’s 17 Republican members not voting. After the final vote, members broke out in applause and walked over to congratulate Jones-Sawyer, who served on the Reparations Task Force and is in his final term in the Legislature.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Even though our state entered the union as a free state, every branch of government has had a hand in perpetrating the oppression of Black folks,” Jones-Sawyer said. “This bill is an opportunity to confront those tough truths in a meaningful way.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Before the vote, legislators recounted \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11942302/californias-legislature-has-roots-in-slavery-are-lawmakers-ready-to-confront-that\">the role state lawmakers played in advancing chattel slavery during the state’s early days\u003c/a>. In 1852, the state Assembly passed California’s fugitive slave law, which allowed enslavers to recapture formerly enslaved people they had brought to California before the state’s entrance into the union — and forcibly remove them to slaveholding states in the South.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A leading supporter of the fugitive slave bill in the state Senate, Sen. James Estill, owned fourteen slaves on his Solano County farm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And in 1854, the state Legislature approved a non-binding resolution supporting the Kansas-Nebraska Act, the explosive federal law allowing the expansion of slavery nationwide into U.S. territories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is undeniable that our systems of government have been complicit in the oppression of African-Americans,” Assembly Speaker Robert Rivas (D-Hollister) said. “Our courts, our schools, even this Legislature. California’s history is tarnished by the subjugation of Black people.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>AB 3089 now heads to the state Senate. The bill is one of more than a dozen \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11976617/state-lawmakers-propose-14-bills-to-provide-reparations-for-black-californians\">included in a reparations package of bills supported by the California Legislative Black Caucus\u003c/a>. Earlier this year, the state Assembly approved a resolution acknowledging many of the harms inflicted by state leaders against Black residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Other bills in the reparations package are focused on repairing that harm, including proposals to compensate Black residents for land taken by eminent domain and another requiring state licensing boards to prioritize Black applicants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Those bills and a handful of others cleared a key hurdle on Thursday, winning the backing of the Legislature’s powerful appropriations committees. But two other reparations-related proposals were quietly shelved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Senate Bill 1007 and Senate Bill 1013 would take a first step toward providing homeowner assistance and property tax relief, respectively, to the descendants of slaves. Sen. Steven Bradford (D-Gardena) wrote both bills, but the Black Caucus designated neither as a priority bill for its members.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"rss": "https://podcasts.files.bbci.co.uk/p02nq0gn.rss"
}
},
"californiareport": {
"id": "californiareport",
"title": "The California Report",
"tagline": "California, day by day",
"info": "KQED’s statewide radio news program providing daily coverage of issues, trends and public policy decisions.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-California-Report-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/californiareport",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 8
},
"link": "/californiareport",
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}
},
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"id": "californiareportmagazine",
"title": "The California Report Magazine",
"tagline": "Your state, your stories",
"info": "Every week, The California Report Magazine takes you on a road trip for the ears: to visit the places and meet the people who make California unique. The in-depth storytelling podcast from the California Report.",
"airtime": "FRI 4:30pm-5pm, 6:30pm-7pm, 11pm-11:30pm",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/californiareportmagazine",
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"order": 10
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM3NjkwNjk1OTAz",
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}
},
"city-arts": {
"id": "city-arts",
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"info": "A one-hour radio program to hear celebrated writers, artists and thinkers address contemporary ideas and values, often discussing the creative process. Please note: tapes or transcripts are not available",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/05/cityartsandlecture-300x300.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.cityarts.net/",
"airtime": "SUN 1pm-2pm, TUE 10pm, WED 1am",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
"subscribe": {
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/City-Arts-and-Lectures-p692/",
"rss": "https://www.cityarts.net/feed/"
}
},
"closealltabs": {
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"info": "Close All Tabs breaks down how digital culture shapes our world through thoughtful insights and irreverent humor.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/closealltabs",
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"order": 1
},
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"title": "Code Switch / Life Kit",
"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"meta": {
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnByLm9yZy9yc3MvcG9kY2FzdC5waHA_aWQ9NTEwMzEy",
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
"airtime": "THU 10pm, FRI 1am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Commonwealth-Club-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
"link": "/radio/program/commonwealth-club",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/commonwealth-club-of-california-podcast/id976334034?mt=2",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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}
},
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"id": "forum",
"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 9am-11am, 10pm-11pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
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"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 9
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5NTU3MzgxNjMz",
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"id": "freakonomics-radio",
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"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/freakonomicsRadio.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
"airtime": "SUN 1am-2am, SAT 3pm-4pm",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WNYC"
},
"link": "/radio/program/freakonomics-radio",
"subscribe": {
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
"rss": "https://feeds.feedburner.com/freakonomicsradio"
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},
"fresh-air": {
"id": "fresh-air",
"title": "Fresh Air",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/381444908/podcast.xml"
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510051/podcast.xml"
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},
"hidden-brain": {
"id": "hidden-brain",
"title": "Hidden Brain",
"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/series/423302056/hidden-brain",
"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "NPR"
},
"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
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},
"how-i-built-this": {
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"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/howIBuiltThis.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510313/how-i-built-this",
"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/3zxy",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
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},
"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"order": 15
},
"link": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/2p3Fifq96nw9BPcmFdIq0o?si=39209f7b25774f38",
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"rss": "https://feeds.megaphone.fm/KQINC2275451163"
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},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 18
},
"link": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/id1492194549",
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}
},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
"subscribe": {
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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"rss": "https://feeds.publicradio.org/public_feeds/marketplace-pm/rss/rss"
}
},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
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"source": "WaitWhat"
},
"link": "/radio/program/masters-of-scale",
"subscribe": {
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
"subscribe": {
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/stories-teachers-share",
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}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
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"link": "/radio/program/morning-edition"
},
"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "On Our Watch from NPR and KQED",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/id1567098962",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
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"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/0OLWoyizopu6tY1XiuX70x",
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"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/show/on-our-watch",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510360/podcast.xml"
}
},
"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
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"info": "One of public radio's most dynamic voices, Sam Sanders helped launch The NPR Politics Podcast and hosted NPR's hit show It's Been A Minute. Now, the award-winning host returns with something brand new, The Sam Sanders Show. Every week, Sam Sanders and friends dig into the culture that shapes our lives: what's driving the biggest trends, how artists really think, and even the memes you can't stop scrolling past. Sam is beloved for his way of unpacking the world and bringing you up close to fresh currents and engaging conversations. The Sam Sanders Show is smart, funny and always a good time.",
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